UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

IN THE MATTER OF: SKYWEST AIRLINES FDMS No. FAA-2013-0617 Respondent

Monday, May 19, 2014 Courtroom 5223 U.S. Tax Court Wallace Bennett Federal Building 125 South State Street Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 The hearing convened, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, Administrative Law Judge



## HEAFW\!G DOCKET

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(202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·4433APPEARANCES:

On Behalf of the Complainant: JEFFREY HARPER, ESQ. of: Federal Aviation Administration Office of Regional Counsel 1601 Lind Avenue Southwest Renton, Washington 98057 (425) 227-2161 jeffrey.harper®faa.gov

On Behalf of the Respondent: MICHAEL L. DWORKIN, ESQ. of: Michael L. Dworkin & Associates 465 California Street Suite 210 San Francisco, California 94104 (415) 421-2599 law®avialex.com TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. General Counsel SkyWest Airlines 444 South River Road St. George, Utah 84790 (435) 634-3530 temerson@SkyWest.com

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(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44333 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

### w I T N E 

## s s E 

## s Direct Cross Redirect Recross 

## s. Allen 20 31 36 A. Perkins 39 70 89 J. McKenna 94 102 A. Perkins 103 111 M. Wallentine 113 125 J. Chavez 129 142 R. Benallo 145 160 164 164 B. Blauer 167 175 A. Ayers 179 209 219 221 

### c. Salamone 228 281 291 292 

### c. Brown 298 320 EXHIBITS Marked Received Voir Dire Complainant's C-1 45 46 C-2 46 46 C-3 133 144 C-4 134 136 134 C-5 28 30 C-6 158 159 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS (202) 234·4433 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44334 EXHIBITS (Continued) Marked Received Voir Dire Complainant's C-7 29 30 C-8 150 152 C-9 151 152 C-10 152 152 C-11 155 156 C-12 156 156 C-13 98 100 C-14 159 159 C-15 99 100 C-16 140 141 C-17 141 141 C-18 52 53 C-19 52 53 C-20 53 53 C-21 59 61 C-22 60 61 C-23 61 61 C-24 64 66 C-25 65 66 C-26 66 66 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS (202) 234-4433 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44335 EXHIBITS (Continued) Marked Received Voir Dire Complainant's C-27 69 70 C-28 70 70 C-29 172 174 C-30 173 174 C-31 174 174 C-32 124 125 C-33 124 125 C-34 108 llO C-35 109 llO C-36 109 llO Respondent's R-3-1 293 297 R-3-2 293 297 R-3-3 293 297 R-4 303 326 R-5-1 303 326 R-5-2 303 327 R-5-3 303 328 R-5-4 303 317 R-5-5 303 (WITHHELD) NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433EXHIBITS (Continued) Marked Received Respondent's R-5-6 303 329 R-5-7 303 329 R-21 74 74

ITEM Opening Statement by Mr. Harper Opening Statement by Mr. Dworkin

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Voir Dire

12 15

(202) 234-44337

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:08a.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're on the 4 record. This is the docket of SkyWest 5 Airlines. It is multiple dockets. I won't 6 bother to read them into the record. Counsel, 7 you want to identifyyourself for the record, 8 please? 9 MR. HARPER: For the Federal 10 Aviation Administration, Jeffrey Harper. 11 MR. DWORKIN: For SkyWest 12 Airlines, Michael L. Dworkinand Todd Emerson. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: A couple of 14 preliminary matters. Our court reporter is 15 doing a digital recording so, there is a 16 slight delay when we say go off the record and 17 go on the record. So, just be aware of that. 18 All of you know this but just a 19 couple comments as we go through this. Troy, 20 if there is something that you need spelled 21 during the course of the hearing, just put 22 your hand up and that is our signal to all of

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1 

### us to spell it. That way, at midnight 2 tonight, you are not bangingyour head against 3 the wall trying to figure out what we said. 4 

### Just a reminder, none of the 5 clocks in the courtroomor chambers or in the 6 secretary's thing are within several hours of 7 being accurate. The last hearingMr. Anderson 8 and I had, we tried to rectify the one in the 9 

### courtroom. At least the clock is back up on 10 the wall. There was a question whether we 11 would get that accomplished. 12 We normally take a break around 13 10:30. We break for lunch around noon. We 14 will take a break sometime ln the afternoon 15 2:00, 3:00-ish. I 

### say that so if counsel is 16 in the middle of examination cross and 17 mentally you look up and we are in that time 18 frame, I 

### don't want to break your train of 19 

### thought. So, just keep that going. But we 20 want to finish at 4:30, be out of the 21 courthouse by 5:00. 22 One other thing that I 

### want to

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44339 1 remind you of, I have indicated in other 2 hearings that I can't guarantee the 3 confidentiality of information. The Chief 4 Judge has taken it upon himself to 5 unilaterallydisseminate informationcontrary 6 to language in the court orders and 7 instructions to staff. So, if we run into 8 somethingwe would normally seal, we are going 9 to have to consider how we want to do that. 10 That's all I'm going to say on that. But 11 let's just keep that in mind because normally 12 I can seal things and I can protect the 13 confidentiality of information but I have 14 confronted the Chief Judge on it and he has, 15 in essence, said, I will do what I want to do. 16 So, that's where we are. 17 Do we want to do an opening 18 statement? 19 MR. HARPER: I have just a brief 20 opening, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 22 MR. HARPER: Just a brief opening.

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, sure. I 

### 2 understand Mr. Dworkin is going to drag this 3 on as long as possible because he and Troy 4 

### have to go back to the fire-ridden state of 5 

### California. 6 

### MR. DWORKIN: Actually, Your 7 

### Honor, before we start with the opening 8 

### statements, as a preliminary matter, I have 9 

### just given Your Honor, about ten minutes ago, 10 

### our trial brief and I would like that to be 11 

### made part of the record. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure, okay. We 13 

### will do that at the appropriate time. 14 

### MR. HARPER: And also following up 15 

### on our discussion of confidentiality, I 16 

### anticipate offering as evidence some 17 photographs of some baggage tags that have 18 passenger names, flight numbers, and dates on 19 them. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 21 

### MR. HARPER: And I don't know if 22 you want to address that now, redact some of

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### 1 that information or as it comes up. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, one of the 3 things I forgot to mention, I am very 4 

### sensitive about confidentiality. Anything 5 that we do can potentiallygo on the internet. 6 And as I have indicated in other cases, when 7 you present witnesses and testimony, I do not 8 want social securitynumbers, dates of birth, 9 home addresses or home or personal phone 10 numbers for anybody who is a witness in a 11 case. 12 And gettingback to the ID things, 13 I have got the ability to redact. And I am 14 certainly willing to redact just about 15 anything, as long as it doesn't impact your 16 

### case. If you don't care if I black out the 17 

### entire tag, that is fine. If we get into an 18 issue that the number may be necessary, then 19 we will address that on -- 20 I am kind of winging my way along 21 this. If I send exhibits to the Office in 22 Washington, D.C., I have no assurancethat the

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### 1 confidentialitywill be protected. So, I have 2 got some cases where I 

### have personal 3 possession of the exhibits and they will go 4 from me to the appellate section. They will 5 not go through the Washington, D.C. Office. 6 It is a sad state of affairs but that is where 7 we are. 8 Let's address it as we get to it 9 Mr. Harper. 10 

### Also, be aware when you put your 11 exhibits in. I just finished a nine-day case 12 in Chicago with about several hundred pages 13 and we are going through redacting dates of 14 

### birth and stuff. So far, it has taken me 15 about four days because there is so many 16 pages. But I would rather do that than have 17 the information get on the internet. 18 And the transcript, Mr. Ray, also 19 

### goes on the internet. Sorry, Mr. Harper. 20 

### MR. HARPER: We have been here 21 before, Your Honor. Being overweight is 22 unsafe, both for people and for planes. Obese

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### 1 aircraft don't fly safely. 2 Unlike people, you can't look at 3 an aircraft and know if it is overweight. For 4 an air carrier, the way the air carrier knows 5 the aircraft is a safe weight before it 6 departs is to follow its weight and balance 7 

### program. And the evidence today will show 8 that that is what SkyWest failed to do, follow 9 its weight and balance program. 10 At first glance, the evidence will 11 sound like these are trivial paperwork 12 violations. The evidencewill show its agents 13 incorrectly completed cargo load reports for 14 the flights in question and that that 15 inaccurate information was used to complete 16 the load manifest for the flights. 17 

### In 12 of the 14 flights, the 18 evidence will show this resulted in the 19 aircraft being operated with inaccurate load 20 manifests. In the other two, SkyWest stumbled 21 upon the correct aircraft weight, despite the 22 incorrect cargo load reports.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443314 1 The evidence will show that 2 through happy chance and serendipity, looking 3 back, it turns out that the flights turned out 4 to have been operated within their weight and 5 balance limitations. So, the good fortune is 6 that everybody onboard the aircraft did not 7 come to ill ends. 8 We know that now, sitting here 9 today, lookingback at the past. But what you 10 will hear today is that SkyWest could not have 11 known that before the flights took place 12 because the aircraft departed with load 13 manifest calculatedusing the wrong data. And 14 so here today, before a flight takes place is 15 precisely when it is most important to know 16 the weight and balance of the aircraft. 17 We are going to hear about the 18 risks to safety that rise when an aircraft is 19 operated outside of its weight and balance 20 envelope. The aircraft could stall and not 21 recover, overrun the runway, run short of 22 fuel, and have to make a forced landing, or

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### 1 fail to meet a minimum climb gradient and 2 

### collide into rising terrain. Those are all 3 just different ways of saying the aircraft 4 could crash. And becausewe want to make sure 5 

### those things don't come to pass, the 6 regulatoryrequirement is for the air carrier 7 to know the weight and balance of the aircraft 8 before it departs. 9 

### And with that, I would like to 10 call my first witness, Mr. Steven Allen. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 12 you want to make an opening, reserve, or just 13 say he is wrong? 14 

### MR. DWORKIN: No, I would like to 15 make a very brief opening statement. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 17 

### MR. DWORKIN: This is, as Mr. 18 Harper correctlynoted, this is a redo of the 19 first heavy bag cases that went to hearing in 20 October 2012 and in which initial decisions 21 were issued in May 2013. In those cases, the 22 

### same factual situations. The FAA sought

NEAL R. GROSS (202)234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443316 1 penalties of $35,000 per flight and Your Honor 2 dismissed the allegations of violation of FAR 3 121.693, which are alleged here again, and 4 reduce the penalties from $35,000 per flight 5 to $250 per flight. And the FAA did not 6 appeal. These cases are siblings of those 7 prior cases. They all arose at the same time 8 as the three prior cases in the same date 9 range back in 2011. These cases are three 10 years' old. These cases arose along before 11 the October 2012 hearing and long prior to the 12 May 2013 initial decision. Somehow, however, 13 the FA, I guess, expects a different result in 14 these cases but really, nothing has changed. 15 Now, there is no dispute that 16 there was disparity between the number of 17 iterns that were recorded on the cargo load 18 reports or CLRs and the number of items that 19 were observed by FAA inspectors being 20 offloaded. 21 But this case is really not about 22 record errors. This case is really about

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443317 1 human errors. The evidence will show that 2 there was no safety flight issue. Any weight 3 discrepancies were de minimis. There was no 4 effect on aircraft weight and balance, no 5 effect on aircraft performance, no effect on 6 SkyWest's mission to safely transport people 7 and using the highest standard of care to the 8 highest level of safety. 9 Over this eight-month period of 10 time, SkyWest safely carried something like 11 440,000 passengers and carried millions of 12 pieces of baggage, all without incident. The 13 evidencewill also show that SkyWest responses 14 to these cases, as in the prior three cases, 15 were responsible, appropriate, timely, and 16 comprehensive. The evidence will show that 17 SkyWest retrained its people, it revised its 18 procedures and these revisions are ongoing. 19 And it has been working with the FAA and with 20 other carriers to make the system a little bit 21 better. 22 In short, there is nothing that

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### 1 distinguishesthese cases that shouldlead, in 2 any way, to any different result from the 3 prior cases. Thank you. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: We have got 5 

### multiple cases. The Court doesn't care how 6 you present them, as long as when I get to the 7 point I have to write a decision, I can always 8 differentiate. You can group them. You can 9 

### do them separately. You can -- as long as 10 

### wouldn't get there just so I can -- I am 11 going to leave that to you, Mr. Harper. It is 12 your case. 13 

### MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. It 14 will be clear through my questioning which 15 case we are discussing. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. It's 17 just at my age, I get confused. 18 Call your witness. 19 

### MR. HARPER: Mr. Steven Allen. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me. 21 MR. DWORKIN: Just a quick

-- are 22 we sequestering witnesses?

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### 1 MR. HARPER: I have no objection 2 if everybody stays in the courtroom. I don't 3 think we have any cases where one of the 4 

### witness's testimony might be influenced by 5 

### other because they were observing. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to you 7 all. 8 

### MR. DWORKIN: That's fine. No 9 need to sequester. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. Sir, 11 you want to approach? 12 Whereupon, 13 STEVEN HARVEY ALLEN 14 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 15 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 16 witness stand and was examined and testified 17 as follows: 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 19 And just a reminder, gentlemen, as 20 I indicated to Mr. Harper earlier, I have got 21 a hearing disability. So, if I tell you to 22 speak up, don't take it personally. I really

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### 1 can't hear you. 2 It's great in restaurants when I 3 

### don't want to listen to what my wife has to 4 

### say. I say, I'm sorry. 5 

### Sir, would you stated your name 6 

### for the record and spell your first and last 7 

### name? 8 

### THE WITNESS: Steven HarveyAllen. 9 

### It is S-T-E-V-E-N, Allen, A-L-L-E-N. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 11 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 

### BY MR. HARPER: 13 Q 

### Mr. Allen, could you briefly 14 describe for us your background in aviation? 15 A 

### I've got over 20 years of flight 16 instructor and airline pilot in both regional 17 aircraft, international cargo aircraft, like 18 a Boeing 747, with about 14,000 hours. 19 Q 

### What certificates and ratings do 20 you hold? 21 A I 

### have got flight instructor 22 ratings, commercial instrument, airline

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### 1 transport pilot. 2 Q 

### Do you have any type ratings? 3 A 

### J31 or A and B110, A and B120, 4 Boeing 737. 5 Q 

### What do you do for a living? 6 A 

### I am an aviation safety inspector. 7 Q 

### Who do you work for? 8 A 

### I work for the SkyWest Certificate 9 Management Office. 10 Q 

### And how long have you worked 11 there? 12 A 

### I have been with the FAA since 13 September of 2002 and on the SkyWest 14 certificate for ten years. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So just so I 16 understand, you work for the FAA but you are 17 responsibility is to oversee SkyWest. 18 

### THE WITNESS: For the least ten 19 years 1 

### about. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. 21 Because the way it was, I wasn 1

### t sure whether 22 you worked for SkyWest.

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1 

### THE WITNESS: No, no. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's why I was 3 

### sitting here. I couldn't understand why he 4 was your first witness, Mr. Harper. 5 BY MR. HARPER: 6 Q 

### Are you an employee of SkyWest 7 Airlines in any way? 8 A 

### No. 9 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 10 SkyWest ln any way? 11 A 

### No, I haven't. 12 J"UDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. That 13 helps. 14 BY MR. HARPER: 15 Q 

### Could you briefly describe your 16 duties as an aviation safety inspector? 17 A I 

### have oversight and new 18 inspections on SkyWest Airlines. 19 Q I 

### would like to turn your 20 attention to FAA case number 2011-NM-060047 21 before this court as DMS Number FAA-2012-0872. 22 Are you familiar with this case?

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1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### How is it that you are familiar 3 with the case? 4 A 

### One of my inspections is a part of 5 

### that case. 6 Q 

### Do you recall, did that inspection 7 take place on March 8 

### of 2011? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Where did that inspection take 10 place? 11 A 

### In Las Vegas, at the airport in 12 Las Vegas. 13 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 14 inspection? 15 A 

### I was performing an EPI or Element 16 Performance Inspectionon the outbound flight 17 from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. 18 Q 

### Would that be Flight 4464 from Los 19 Angeles to Las Vegas? 20 A 

### Right. That was ln the inbound, 21 yes. 22 Q 

### As part of that inspection, did

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1 you count the baggage that came off of the 2 aircraft? 3 A I counted the heavy weight bags. 4 Q Do you recall how many heavy 5 weight bags you counted? 6 A Two. 7 Q How did you recognize that the 8 heavy bags were heavy bags? 9 A They are required to have an 10 orange, a large orange tag affixed to the 11 luggage. If it has heavy written on it and, 12 oftentimes, they put the amount of weight on 13 it. 14 Q Where were you standing when you 15 counted the heavy bags? 16 A I was at the bottom of the belt 17 loader, the aft cargo area there. 18 Q Did you have a clear view of the 19 luggage as it came off the aircraft? 20 A Yes, I was looking up at the 21 baggage as it was being unloaded to take 22 pictures.

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1 Q 

### And as part of your inspection, 2 did you obtain any documents relative to the 3 flight? 4 A 

### Yes, I obtained the cargo load 5 

### report. 6 Q 

### And where did you get the cargo 7 

### load report from? 8 A 

### From the inbound pilots, who are 9 

### required to bring that with them to the 10 

### completion of their flight. 11 Q 

### Did you speak to any SkyWest 12 

### employees or contractors in Los Angeles that 13 

### loaded the bags or completed the CLR? 14 A 

### Subsequently, the next day, I 15 

### contacted Mr. Allen's delta station manager 16 

### and debriefed him on what had gone on. 17 Q 

### You didn't obtain a copy of the 18 

### COR from Los Angeles. Correct? 19 A 

### No. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so that I 21 

### understand, this was an inbound flight from 22 LAX to Vegas.

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### 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 3 

### THE WITNESS: I was out there to 4 meet the aircraft to do my inspectionfrom Las 5 

### Vegas to Los Angeles. So, I was there to see 6 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. 8 

### THE WITNESS: the inbound 9 

### offloading. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. I 

### am 11 repeating it just to make sure I understand. 12 You went out there

-- 13 

### THE WITNESS: To meet it. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: to meet the 15 flight that was going from Las Vegas to LAX 16 and happened to meet the LAX-Vegas inbound, 17 which is the subject. 18 

### And Mr. Harper, at some point in 19 your presentation I remember from the last 20 case, the definitions of cargo and heavy bag 21 and regularbags, if you couldput that in the 22 record. Do you understand what I am talking

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### 1 about in terms of

-- 2 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. We 3 will get there. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 5 

### MR. HARPER: In fact, I believe

-- 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I knew we would 7 

### get there. I just

-- 8 

### MR. HARPER: If I am not mistaken, 9 it is already in the record as a consequence 10 of your taking judicial notice of the 11 transcript in the previous hearings. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 

### MR. HARPER: But we will cover it 14 again today, just to make sure. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Great

. Thank you. 16 

### MR. HARPER: Mr. Allen, if you 17 could please flip to Tab C-5 in the binder in 18 

### front of you. Identical binders have been 19 provided to opposing counsel, the judge, and 20 the court reporter. 21 

### And the binder contains the 22 exhibits we anticipate offering today.

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for 2 purposes of the record, what I do when the 3 exhibits are admittedor presented is I put ID 4 in pencil next to the exhibit number and then 5 I draw a line through ID and put the date. It 6 is as much for my records as anything else. 7 BY MR. HARPER: 8 Q 

### Mr. Allen, do you recognize the 9 document in Tab C-5? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### What is it? 12 A 

### It is the copy of the cargo load 13 report of that the pilots carry through the 14 completion of the flight. 15 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 18 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-5 WAS 19 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 20 

### BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### If you could please turn to Tab C22 7. Do you recognize these documents?

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1 

### A Yes. 2 Q 

### What are they? 3 

### A What's that? 4 Q 

### What are they? 5 

### A They are 

### -- I took the pictures of 6 the heavy bags that came off that inbound 7 flight. 8 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 9 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-7 WAS 10 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 11 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 12 time, I would like to move what has been 13 

### marked as Exhibit C-5 and C-7 for 14 identification into evidence as Exhibit C-5 15 and C-7. 16 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 17 Honor. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: While we are 19 

### there, Mr. Harper, let me ask you. With 20 respect to the identification numbers, do we 21 need those in the record? Or can I redact 22 them, so to speak? Because you had brought

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### 1 this up preliminarily. 2 

### MR. HARPER: I think the exhibit 3 

### numbers, you would want to keep as is. The 4 bag tags 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what I am 6 

### saying is 7 

### MR. HARPER: The bag tags, I 8 

### think, the tags themselves, I think maybe it 9 

### would be best to redact the bar codes and the 10 passenger names. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, the Court 12 will do that. Any objectionto me doing that, 13 Mr. Dworkin? 14 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, C-5 and C-7 16 for identificationare received into evidence 17 as C-5 and C-7. 18 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 19 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 20 EXHIBIT C-5 AND C-7 WERE RECEIVED 21 INTO EVIDENCE. ) 22 

### MR. HARPER: I have a black marker

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### 1 if you need it for redaction. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So, do I. So, you 3 

### learned from the Court. 4 BY 

### MR. HARPER: 5 Q 

### Mr. Allen, did the number of bags 6 

### onboard the flight that you counted, was that 7 

### number correctly reflected on the cargo load 8 

### report? 9 A 

### No, there were no heavy bags on 10 

### the report. 11 

### MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 12 further questions. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 14 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 15 BY 

### MR. DWORKIN: 16 Q 

### Mr. Allen, I am Michael Dworkin. 17 I represent SkyWest. Good morning. 18 A 

### Good morning. 19 Q 

### With respect to Exhibit C-5, this 20 

### was the crew copy of the CLR. Is that 21 correct? 22 A 

### Correct.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443332

1 Q 

### Okay. So, you never got the 2 station copy of the CLR. 3 A 

### These are two parts. So, the 4 stationkeeps one part and the pilots take the 5 

### other part, until the completion of their 6 

### flight. 7 Q 

### Okay, but you never got the 8 

### station copy of the CLR? 9 A 

### I don't need to, no. 10 Q 

### Well, isn't there a provision in 11 

### the SkyWest Weight and Balance Programthat ln 12 

### many cases for last minute bags, et cetera, 13 

### that the CLR is amended by the station and 14 

### they amend the station copy and it not 15 

### necessarily amends the pilot copy of the CLR 16 

### because of who already has that CLR? 17 A 

### They are supposed to do both. 18 Q 

### But you never obtained the station 19 

### copy? 20 A 

### No. 21 Q 

### Okay. Now, on the CLR, this is a 22 two-part form. Is that correct?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443333 

### 1 A 

### Correct. 2 Q 

### One is the station copy. One is 3 the flight crew copy. And on the back side of 4 the station copy, is that blank or is there 5 something there? 6 A 

### I don't recall. 7 Q 

### Have you ever -- did you bother 8 looking to see if there was a back side to the 9 CLR? 10 A 

### They normallyhave the charts they 11 look up to determine the counts of the weight, 12 extra weight. 13 Q 

### And on the back side of the CLRs, 14 they also have little boxes to help you keep 15 count. Correct? 16 A 

### Sure. Yes, but you know. 17 Q 

### But you didn't think it was 18 necessary to get that backside of the station 19 copy. Is that correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q 

### And now you were at Las Vegas 22 because you were going to be flying on a

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443334

1 

### SkyWest flight back to Los Angeles. Is that 2 correct? 3 A 

### Correct. 4 Q 

### You did a flight deck observation, 5 jump seat? 6 A 

### That is correct. It was part of 7 

### the EPI. It had to do with weight and 8 

### balance, load manifest. So, I 

### was 9 

### concentrating on that area. 10 Q 

### So, while you were waiting to 11 

### board the flight from Las Vegas to Los 12 Angeles, what causedyou to just simplydecide 13 

### to go count baggage? 14 A 

### Well, I was out there to meet the 15 

### flight and the EPI inspection I was doing was 16 

### related to the cargo weight and balance. 17 Q 

### Okay. And what is EPI? 18 A 

### Element Performance Inspection. 19 Q 

### And so when you arrived, let's 20 see, this flight was on March 8, 

### 2011. On 21 March 9, you contacted David Allen. Is that 22 correct?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443335

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### And who is David Allen? 3 A 

### He told me he was the Station 4 

### Manager at Delta for Delta. 5 Q 

### Okay. Well, if this was the 6 SkyWest discrepancy, why were you contacting 7 Delta? 8 A 

### Because they do the baggage 9 

### handling. It is a Delta connection flight 10 operated by SkyWest. 11 Q 

### Okay. So, it was Delta who 12 presumably prepared the CLR. 13 A 

### The rampers, yes. 14 Q 

### Delta's rampers? 15 A 

### Uh-huh. 16 Q 

### Okay. And was there any follow-up 17 communication between you and Mr. Allen? 18 A 

### Yes, I called him the next day and 19 debriefed him, which is typical. 20 Q 

### And he said he was going to get 21 back to you? 22 A 

### I don't recall. He was generally

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443336

1 

### concerned and was going to talk to the 2 rampers. 3 Q 

### Okay. Was there any follow-up 4 discussion with Mr. Allen? 5 A 

### Not that I remember. 6 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 7 

### further questions. 8 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY 

### MR. HARPER: 10 Q 

### Mr. Allen, was the flight you were 11 

### inspecting operated by Delta? 12 A 

### No, it is operated by SkyWest 13 

### Airlines. 14 Q 

### And if SkyWest was operating the 15 

### flight, does that

-- who controls the flight? 16 A 

### It is SkyWest's responsibility. 17 Q 

### And if it is a SkyWest flight, who 18 

### is responsible for the safe conduct of the 19 

### flight? 20 A 

### SkyWest Airlines. 21 

### MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 22 further questions.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443337

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 2 

### MR. DWORKIN: No cross. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 4 instructyou are not to discuss your testimony 5 

### with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 6 

### flight. It is up to counsel whether you can 7 

### remain the courtroom or not. 8 

### All right, you can step down. 9 

### MR. HARPER: Mr. Dworkin, would 10 

### you want him subject to recall? 11 

### MR. DWORKIN: No. 12 

### MR. HARPER: Mr. Allen is from out 13 

### of town. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 15 

### MR. HARPER: So, if 

### it is all 16 

### right with the Court, if he could be 17 

### dismissed. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we just 19 

### take two minutes to give you a chance to 20 

### instruct the witness and he is free to leave. 21 

### MR. HARPER: Okay, thank you. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. We

NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443338 

### 1 will go off the record for just a minute, 2 rememberingit takes two seconds to go off the 3 record. 4 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 5 went off the record at 9:34 a.m. 6 

### and went back on the record at 7 

### 9:36a.m.) 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, call 9 your next witness. 10 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 11 calls Mr. Adam Perkins. 12 Whereupon, 13 ADAM SCOTT PERKINS 14 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 15 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 16 witness stand and was examined and testified 17 as follows: 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 19 State your name for the record and 20 spell your first and last name. 21 THE WITNESS: My name is Adam 22 Scott Perkins. The first name is A-D-A-M,

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443339 

### 1 last name Perkins, P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 3 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 

### BY MR. HARPER: 5 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, could you briefly 6 

### describe your background in aviation? 7 A 

### Approximately 12 years of aviation 8 

### experience from flight instructing to flying 9 

### cargo. Six years of that was spent at 10 Atlantic Southeast Airlines flying CRJ 11 aircraft and ATR72. 12 Q 

### AT the time you flew for Atlantic 13 Southeast Airlines, were they a subsidiaryof 14 SkyWest Airlines Incorporated? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### Were you ever an employee of 17 SkyWest Airlines itself? 18 A 

### No. 19 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 20 SkyWest Airlines? 21 A 

### No. 22 Q 

### Who do you currently work for?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443340

1 A SkyWest Certificate Management 2 Office. 3 Q And how long have you worked for 4 the FAA at SkyWest Certificate Management 5 Office? 6 A About three and a half years. 7 Q What do you do for the CMO? 8 A Aviation safety inspector. 9 Q What does that entail? 10 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we will 11 stipulate as to the duties and 12 responsibilities of an aviation safety 13 inspector. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 15 BY MR. HARPER: 16 Q Mr. Perkins, I would like to draw 17 your attention to FAA Case Number 2011-NM18 060073 before this Court as DMS Number FAA19 2012-0868. Are you familiar with this case? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How are you familiar with it? 22 A I was the inspector that wrote the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443341 1 case and performed the surveillance with the 2 findings that were generated. 3 Q Did that surveillance take place 4 on June 2, 2011? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Where were you when you performed 7 the surveillance? 8 A At the Charlotte Douglas 9 International Airport. 10 Q What was the purpose of the 11 surveillance? 12 A I was conducting an EPI. for line 13 station operations. 14 Q What does that EPI is that 15 Element Performance Inspection? 16 A It's an Element Performance 17 Inspection, which involves the weight and 18 balance program for SkyWest Airlines. 19 Q And as part of your surveillance 20 in Charlotte on June 2, 2011, did you inspect 21 Flight 5840 arriving ln Charlotte from 22 Houston?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·443342

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### As part of that inspection, did 3 you count the baggage that was onboard the 4 

### flight? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Do you happen to recall how many 7 

### standard bags you counted as being aboard the 8 

### flight? 9 A 

### I would have to reference the 10 

### statement I made in the case for that number. 11 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, 12 

### permission to approach the witness? 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 14 

### MR. HARPER: I 

### am handing 15 approaching counsel, the court reporter, the 16 judge, and the witness, a copy of the document 17 that has been previouslymarked as Exhibit C18 100 

### for identification. 19 BY MR. HARPER: 20 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, could you review that 21 

### quietly to yourself and look up when you are 22 finished?

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443343

1 A 

### Okay. 2 Q 

### Do you now recall how many 3 standardbags you countedas being onboardthe 4 aircraft? 5 A 

### Twenty-seven. 6 Q 

### And do you recall how many heavy 7 bags you countedas being aboardthe aircraft? 8 

### I'm sorry. Strike that question. 9 Do you recall how many plane side 10 loaded bags were on the aircraft? 11 A 

### There were 20. 12 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 13 counted the bags? 14 A 

### Next to the belt loader. 15 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 16 baggage as it came off the aircraft? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 19 relevant to that flight? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### What documents. 22 A 

### The cargo load report and the load

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202)234-443344 

### 1 manifest. 2 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 3 documents from Houston? 4 A 

### No. 5 Q 

### Is there a particular reason you 6 didn't get them from Houston? 7 A 

### I had the flight crews' copy of 8 the CLR in Charlotte and there was no need to 9 get that information. 10 Q 

### So, to understand, you obtained 11 the CLR from the flight crew? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### How did you get a copy of load 14 manifest? 15 A 

### Do an information request to 16 SkyWest Airlines. 17 Q 

### If you could flip in the binder in 18 front of you to the Tab marked C-1. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for the 20 record, the CLR we are referring to means 21 

### cargo load report. Is that correct? 22 

### MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443345

1 

### BY MR. HARPER: 2 Q 

### Do you recognize the document at 3 Tab C-1? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### What is it? 6 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 7 

### report that I received in Charlotte. 8 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 11 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-1 WAS 12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 13 

### BY MR. HARPER: 14 Q 

### If you could turn now to page -- 15 to Tab C-2 in the binder. Do you recognize 16 this document? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### What is it? 19 A 

### It's a copy of the load manifest I 20 received from SkyWest. 21 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 22 A 

### Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443346

1 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 2 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-2 WAS 3 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 4 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 5 time I would like to move what has been marked 6 

### as Exhibit C-1 and C-2 for identificationinto 7 

### evidence as C-1 and C-2. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Is it one and two 9 

### or one and three? 10 

### MR. HARPER: One and two. 11 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Complainant's 13 1 and Complainant's 2 for identification are 14 received into evidence as Complainant's 1 and 15 2. 16 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 17 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 18 

### EXHIBITS C-1 and C-2 WERE RECEIVED 19 

### INTO EVIDENCE. ) 20 

### BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### Did the CLR correctly reflect the 22 number of bags that you counted as being

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443347 

### 1 onboard the aircraft? 2 A 

### No. 3 Q 

### Did the weight listed on the load 4 manifest match up with the weight calculated 5 on the CLR? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Would that mean that the weight 8 listed on the load manifest was incorrect in 9 light of the actual loading of the aircraft? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q I 

### would like to turn your 12 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM13 060038 before this Court as DMS Number FAA14 2012-06874. 15 Are you familiar with this case? 16 A 

### Yes, I 

### am. 17 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 18 A I 

### was the inspector that wrote the 19 case and performed the surveillance for it. 20 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 21 on March 3, 2011? 22 A 

### Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443348

1 Q Where did that surveillance take 2 place? 3 A At Salt Lake City International 4 Airport. 5 Q What was the purpose of the 6 surveillance? 7 A I was undergoing on-the-job 8 training for line station operations and part 9 of the training was to observe the weight and 10 balance program for SkyWest. 11 Q As part of that surveillance, did 12 you count the cargo, the baggage that was 13 onboard Flight 4553 from San Diego to Salt 14 Lake City? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you happen to recall how many 17 standard bags were onboard that flight? 18 A If I could reference my inspection 19 notes again, that would be helpful to remember 20 that. 21 MR. HARPER: Permission to 22 approach the witness?

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443349

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 2 

### MR. HARPER: I am handing to 3 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 4 judge and the witness a document that has 5 previously been marked as Exhibit C-101 for 6 identification. 7 BY MR. HARPER: 8 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, if you could review 9 

### that document and let me know when you are 10 finished. 11 A 

### Okay. 12 Q 

### Do you recall now how many 13 standard bags were onboard Flight 4553? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### How many bags were onboard the 16 flight? 17 A 

### There were 43. 18 Q 

### Standard bags? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### How many heavy bags were onboard 21 Flight 4553? 22 A 

### Thirty.

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443350

1 Q 

### How did you recognize the heavy 2 bags as being heavy? 3 A 

### There is a large orange tag that 4 says heavy on the bag. 5 Q 

### Was there any other cargo onboard 6 of note? 7 A 

### There was one live checked animal. 8 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 9 determined how much cargo was onboard the 10 plane? 11 A 

### Next to the belt loader. 12 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 13 luggage that came off of the aircraft? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 16 relevant to this flight? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### Which documents are those? 19 A 

### The cargo load report and the load 20 manifest. 21 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 22 documents from San Diego, the origination

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443351 

### 1 point of the flight? 2 A No. 3 Q 

### Is there a reason you didn't 4 obtain them from San Diego? 5 A No. 6 Q 

### How did you get a copy of the 7 cargo load report? 8 A 

### I obtained that from the flight 9 deck crew after the flight. 10 Q 

### And where did you get the load 11 manifest from? 12 A 

### Through an information request to 13 SkyWest Airlines. 14 Q 

### If you could please turn to Tab C15 18 in the binder in front of you. 16 Do you recognize that document? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### What is it? 19 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 20 report that I received in Salt Lake City. 21 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 22 A 

### Yes.

NEALR. GROSS (202)234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·443352

1 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 2 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-18 WAS 3 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 4 

### BY MR. HARPER: 5 Q 

### And can you please turn to Tab C6 19? Do you recognize that document? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### What is it? 9 A 

### A copy of the load manifest for 10 Flight 4553. 11 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the load 12 manifest you received from SkyWest? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 15 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-19 WAS 16 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 17 Q 

### If you could turn to Tab C-20. Do 18 you recognize these documents? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### What are they? 21 A 

### They are pictures that I took 22 during my surveillance of the heavy bag tags.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443353

1 Q 

### Do they accurate reflect what you 2 saw when you were taking the picture? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 5 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-20 WAS 6 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 7 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 8 time, we would like to move what has been 9 previouslymarkedas Complainant's 18, 19, and 10 20 for identification into evidence as 11 Complainant's 18, 19, and 20. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 18, 15 19, and 20 marked for identification are 16 received in evidence as Complainant's 18, 19, 17 and 20. 18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 20 EXHIBITS C-18, C-19, and C-20 WERE 21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, the

NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443354 

### 1 Agent ID number doesn 1

### t do me any good unless 2 I have access to the database. Would that be 3 

### correct? Look on the cargo load report. 4 

### MR. HARPER: That is correct, 5 

### unless you have access. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well so like with 7 

### an airlinepilots, let 1

### s say I have got access 8 

### to whatever database this number is in, that 9 

### is just a string of numbers. 10 

### MR. HARPER: Correct. Yes, sir. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 12 

### BY MR. HARPER: 13 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, did the baggage on 14 

### the CLR for this flight correctly reflect the 15 

### baggage that was loaded on the aircraft? 16 A 

### No. 17 Q 

### Did the weight listed on the load 18 manifest correlate with the weight calculated 19 based on the CLR or the weight calculated 20 based on what was actually onboard the 21 

### aircraft? 22 A 

### The load manifest was correctly

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443355 

### 1 calculated for the weight on the CLR. 2 Q 

### So it was incorrect based on the 3 cargo that was on the aircraft. 4 A 

### That is correct. 5 Q I 

### would like to turn your 6 attention now to Flight 4540 from Missoula to 7 Salt Lake City on March 3rd, 2011. Did you 8 have an opportunity that day to inspect that 9 flight? 10 A 

### Yes, I did. 11 

### MR. DWORKIN: I'm sorry. Which 12 flight? 13 

### MR. HARPER: Flight 4540, Missoula 14 to Salt Lake City. 15 BY MR. HARPER: 16 Q 

### As part of that inspection, did 17 you determine how much cargo was onboard the 18 flight? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Was there any ballast onboard the 21 flight? 22 A 

### Yes.

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443356

1 Q 

### Do you recall how much ballast? 2 A 

### There were five 50-pound sandbags. 3 Q 

### That is a total of 250 pounds? 4 A 

### That is correct. 5 Q 

### Was there any company material 6 onboard the flight? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### How much company material? 9 A 

### There was approximately 100 10 pounds. It was four bundles of magazines. 11 Q 

### You say approximately 100 pounds. 12 How did you determine that it is about 100 13 pounds? 14 A 

### It wasn't until I received the 15 response from SkyWest that indicated what 16 those bundles weighed. 17 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 18 were evaluatinghow much cargo was onboard the 19 plane? 20 A 

### Next to the belt loader. 21 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 22 offloading?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234--443357

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 3 relative to this flight? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### What documents? 6 A 

### The cargo load report and the load 7 manifest. 8 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 9 documentsfromMissoula, the originationpoint 10 of the flight?

12 Where did you get the CLR from? 13 From the pilots. 14 And how about the load manifest? 15 From SkyWest Airlines. 16 If you could please turn now to 17 Do you recognize this document?

19 What is it? 20 It is a copy of the load manifest. 21 Is it an accurate copy of the load 22 that you obtained from the flight

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·443358 

### 1 crew? 2 A 

### I obtained the load manifest from 3 SkyWest Airlines in Saint George. 4 Q 

### I'm sorry from SkyWest Airlines. 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 7 cargo load report that you obtained from the 8 flight cargo? 9 A 

### C-21 in my book here is a copy of 10 the load manifest. The cargo load report is 11 actually behind C-20. 12 Q 

### Okay. Tab C-20, then. At the 13 bottan of the page, is there an exhibit 14 number? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 

### MR. DWORKIN: Wait a second. 17 Jeff, I'm lost here. We are looking at the 18 

### cargo load report for Flight 4540. Is that 19 correct? 20 MR. HARPER: Yes. At the bottom 21 it is marked as C-21 but apparently it is 22 behind Tab C-20 in his binder.

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1 

### MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. Got it. 2 

### BY MR. HARPER: 3 Q 

### So, I just want to confirm the 4 document you are looking at, at the bottom, it 5 is marked Exhibit C-21. 6 A 

### C-21, that is correct and it is 7 the cargo load report. 8 Q 

### For Flight 4540 on March 3, 

### 2011? 9 A 

### That is correct. 10 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 11 cargo load report that you obtained from 12 SkyWest personnel? 13 A 

### Yes, it is. 14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 15 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-21 WAS 16 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 17 Q 

### Okay, if you could turn to the 18 

### next tab. If you could confirm that at the 19 bottomof the document it is marked Exhibit 

## c20 22. 21 A 

### Yes, it is. It is marked C-22. 22 Q 

### Do you recognize this document?

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443360

1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### What is it? 3 A 

### It is a copy of the load manifest 4 that I received from SkyWest Airlines. 5 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 8 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-22 WAS 9 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 10 Q 

### And if you could please turn now 11 to the next tab. And I just want to confirm 12 that at the bottom of the first page of that 13 document, it is marked C-23. 14 

### A Yes, it is. 15 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 16 

### A Yes. 17 Q 

### What is it? 18 

### A It 

### is a picture I took of the 19 magazine bundles and the ballast. 20 Q 

### Is it an accurate representation 21 of what you saw that day? 22 A 

### Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443361

1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-23 WAS 3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 5 time, we would like to move what has been 6 marked as Complainant's 21, 22, and 23 for 7 identificationinto evidence as Complainant's 8 21, 22, and 2 3 . 9 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 10 Honor. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 21, 12 22, and 23 for identification are received 13 into evidence as Complainant's21, 22, and 23. 14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 15 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 16 EXHIBITS C-21, C-22, and C-23 WERE 17 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 18 BY MR. HARPER: 19 Q In that photo, are all of the 20 ballast bags that you saw that day visible? 21 A No. 22 Q Did the information on the CLR

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### 1 correctlyreflect the cargo that you observed 2 being offloaded from the plane? 3 A No. 4 Q I 

### would like to turn your 5 attention now to Flight 4445 from Phoenix to 6 Salt Lake City. Did you inspect this flight 7 on March 3, 

### 2011? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### As part of that inspection, did 10 you count the number of bags that came off of 11 

### the flight? 12 A 

### Yes. l3 Q 

### Do you recall how many standard 14 bags were onboard Flight 4445? 15 A 

### Forty-three. 16 Q 

### How many heavy bags were onboard 17 Flight 4445? 18 A 

### Three. 19 Q 

### How did you determine how many 20 bags were onboard the aircraft? 21 A I 

### counted them. 22 Q 

### Where were you standing when you

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443363 

### 1 counted the cargo? 2 A 

### Next to the belt loader. 3 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 4 offloading? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 7 relative to this flight? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### What documents? 10 A 

### The cargo load report and the load 11 manifest. 12 Q 

### I would like you to turn now to 13 well, who did you obtain the CLR from? 14 A 

### From the pilots. 15 Q 

### And where did you get the load 16 manifest from? 17 A 

### From an information request to 18 SkyWest Airlines. 19 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-24. 20 If you could, confirm that at the bottom of 21 the page it is marked Exhibit C-24. 22 A 

### There is no exhibit in C-24.

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1 Q 

### Okay, flip the page to C-25, Tab 2 C-25. 3 A 

### Tab C-23 has the cargo load report 4 marked Exhibit C-24. 5 Q 

### Okay. So, you are looking at what 6 

### has been marked as Exhibit C-24 for 7 identification. 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### What document is it? 12 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 13 report. 14 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 15 cargo load report you obtainedfrom the flight 16 crew? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 19 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-24 WAS 20 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 21 BY MR. HARPER: 22 Q 

### If you could turn to the next page

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### 1 and confirm that at the bottom is it marked 2 Exhibit C-25. 3 A 

### Yes, it is. 4 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 5 A 

### Yes, it is a copy of the load 6 manifest for Flight 4445. 7 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the load 8 manifest you obtained from SkyWest? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 11 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-25 WAS 12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 13 

### BY MR. HARPER: 14 Q 

### If you could turn now to the next 15 page. 16 A 

### We're back on track. 17 Q 

### Can you confirm that this photo is 18 marked as Exhibit C-26? 19 A 

### Yes, it is. 20 Q 

### Do you recognize these documents? 21 A 

### Yes, I do. 22 Q 

### What are they?

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1 A They are photographs of heavy bag 2 tags that I took. 3 Q Do they accurately show what you 4 saw that day? 5 A Yes. 6 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 7 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-26 WAS 8 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 9 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 10 time, I would like to move what has been 11 marked as Complainant's C-24, 25, and 26 for 12 identificationinto evidence as Complainant's 13 C-24, C-25, and C-26. 14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's C16 24, 25, and 26 for identificationare received 17 into evidence as Complainant's24, 25, and 26. 18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 20 EXHIBIT C-24 THROUGH C-26 WERE 21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 22 BY MR. HARPER:

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### 1 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, I would like to turn 2 your attention now to Flight 4613 from Omaha 3 

### to Salt Lake City on March 3, 

### 2011. Was this 4 

### one of the flights you inspected on the third 5 

### of March? 6 A 

### Yes, it was. 7 Q 

### What did you do as part of that 8 

### inspection? 9 A I 

### observed and counted the 10 offloading of cargo from the aircraft. 11 Q 

### Were there any live animals 12 onboard the flight? 13 A 

### Yes, there were. 14 Q 

### How many? 15 A 

### Two. 16 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 17 watched the luggage being offloaded? 18 A 

### I was standing next to the belt 19 loader. 20 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 21 process? 22 A 

### Yes.

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1 Q Did you obtain any documents 2 relevant to this flight? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What documents? 5 A The cargo load report and the load 6 manifest. 7 Q Did you get any of those documents 8 from somebody in Omaha, the originationof the 9 flight? 10 A No. 11 Q Where did you get a copy of the 12 cargo load report from? 13 A From the pilots. 14 Q And where did you get the load 15 manifest from? 16 A Through an information request to 17 SkyWest Airlines. 18 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-27, 19 if you could verify that the document at the 20 bottom is marked Exhibit C-27 for 21 identification. 22 A It is.

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1 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### What is it? 4 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 5 report. 6 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 7 cargo load report you receivedfrom the flight 8 crew? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 11 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-27 WAS 12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 13 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-28. 14 Do you recognize this document? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### What is it? 17 A 

### It is a copy of the load manifest 18 from the Flight 4613. 19 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the load 20 manifest that you received from SkyWest for 21 that flight? 22 A 

### Yes.

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1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-28 WAS 3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 5 time, we would like to move what has been 6 marked as Complainant's 2 7 and 2 8 for 7 identificationinto evidence as Complainant's 8 27 and 28. 9 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 27 11 and 28 for identification are received in 12 evidence as Complainant's 27 and 28. 13 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 14 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 15 EXHIBIT C-27 AND C-28 WERE 16 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 17 MR. HARPER: No further questions 18 at this time. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 22 Q Good morning, Mr. Perkins.

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1 A 

### Good morning. 2 Q 

### All the cases that you talked 3 about with one exception, and that is Exhibit 4 C-21, which is the CLR for the Missoula/Salt 5 Lake Flight, all the CLRs that you obtained 6 

### were from the flight crews. Is that correct? 7 A 

### That is correct. It is also 8 

### correct for the Missoula flight as well. 9 Q 

### For the Missoula flight as well. 10 Okay. So, ln no case did you obtain the 11 station copy of the CLRs. 12 A 

### The station copy for Missoula I 13 believe that was provided to me by SkyWest 14 Airlines. 15 Q 

### Okay. And the station copy of the 16 

### CLR, where is that? That hasn't been 17 introduced into evidence yet. Has it? 18 A 

### I don't think so. 19 Q 

### Okay. So, was there a difference 20 between the station copy and the crew copy of 21 the CLR Exhibit 21? 22 A 

### Yes, there was.

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### 1 Q 

### And what was the difference? 2 A 

### The difference was on the station 3 copy, the ballast indicated250 pounds and the 4 COMAT was 100 pounds. 5 Q 

### Okay. And so the CLR, the station 6 

### copy of the CLR was in fact the correct CLR. 7 

### Is that correct? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Okay. So, do you have some 10 explanation as to why there are two CLRs for 11 this flight? 12 A 

### I believe that the ballast was 13 requested after the flight was loaded by the 14 

### pilots. And a lot of times what happens is 15 the station will make a correction to their 16 copy and then the pilots will make a 17 correction to their copy as well after they 18 have been detached. 19 Q 

### Okay. But whether it is ballast 20 or COMAT, we are still dealing with 350 21 pounds. Correct? 22 A That is correct.

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1 Q 

### And it is still in the tail 2 

### section of the airplane, same compartment. 3 

### A That is right. 4 Q 

### This is really a no harm/no foul. 5 

### A It is a technical issue. 6 Q 

### Okay. It 

### is just that somebody 7 

### called it COMAT and the station called it 8 

### ballast and COMAT. Correct? 9 A 

### Correct. 10 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 11 Honor? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 13 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 14 Q 

### I am showing you what appears to 15 be a cargo load report for Flight 4540. Can 16 you identify that? 17 A 

### Yes, I would say that is an 18 accurate representation of a cargo load 19 report. 20 Q 

### Okay. And is that the station21 corrected copy of the cargo load report for 22 4540?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 A 

### Yes. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you going to 3 have more than one exhibit, Mr. Dworkin? 4 

### MR. DWORKIN: Pardon me? 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I am just trying 6 to figure out how to number this. 7 

### MR. DWORKIN: Yes. I think what 8 

### maybe the best way to do to it would be, since 9 that was Exhibit C-21, let's make this R-21, 10 so it corresponds. 11 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 12 TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBIT R-21 WAS 13 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 14 

### MR. DWORKIN: I ask that this be 15 received as Exhibit R-21, Your Honor. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 17 

### MR. HARPER: No objections. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The Respondent's 19 21 for identification is received into 20 evidence as Respondent's 21. 21 22 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT

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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443375

1 

### EXHIBIT R-21 WAS RECEIVED INTO 2 

### EVIDENCE.) 3 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 4 Q 

### Now, the CLR is a multi-part form. 5 Is that correct? 6 A 

### That is correct. 7 Q 

### And on the first page of the CLR, 8 which is the top copy, it is like NCR paper. 9 Right? You know the writingon the first page 10 goes through to the second one. 11 A 

### That is a carbon copy of it. 12 Q 

### That is a carbon, okay. 13 

### On the first page of the CLR, 14 

### there is a back side to that CLR. Is there 15 not? 16 A 

### I believe so. 17 Q 

### Okay. Did you, ln the course of 18 your investigation, did you attempt to obtain 19 the back sides of the original CLRs? 20 A 

### No, I did not. 21 Q 

### Okay, do you know what is on the 22 back side of the CLR?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443376 1 A It is a format to help the ramper 2 count the bags, his numbers. 3 Q Okay. Why does the ramper need 4 help to count the bags? 5 A I suppose it would be easy to lose 6 track in your head. It gives him a way to 7 manually keep track of bags as they go on the 8 airplane. 9 Q Okay. When you were counting all 10 these bags coming off, what, four or five 11 flights, did you ever lose count of the bags? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. How did you count them? 14 Did you have a clicker? Do you have a 15 scanner? 16 A I would typically make notes, 17 checkmarks as each bag comes off. 18 Q Okay, you didn't have to do any 19 recounts? 20 A No. 21 Q How long did it take you to count 22 these bags on each of these flights?

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1 A 

### I don't recall exactly. 2 Q 

### Five minutes, ten minutes, a half 3 hour? 4 A 

### I would say five to ten minutes. 5 Q 

### Was anybody working with you? 6 A 

### It depends on which case you are 7 

### speaking of. 8 Q 

### In any of these cases? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Okay. So, well, with respect to 11 

### the Flight 4540 

### at Salt Lake City, this is the 12 43 

### standard bags, the three heavy bags, who 13 

### was working with you on that? 14 A 

### It was receiving on-the-job 15 training from Andrew Ayers. 16 Q 

### Okay. And so were you both 17 counting bags? 18 A 

### I don't recall. 19 Q 

### Or was one person counting and the 20 other person recording? 21 A 

### I don't recall exactly. 22 Q 

### Okay. How about the flight from

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### 1 Missoula to Salt Lake City, another 4540, that 2 is the ballast case? Was anybody working with 3 you on that flight? 4 A 

### So all the flights in Salt Lake I 5 was receiving on-the-job training with Andrew 6 Ayers. 7 Q 

### And so how did you divide your 8 responsibilities with respect to counting 9 baggage? 10 A 

### I don't recall exactly. From what 11 I remember, I think I was the one counting 12 bags and Andrew was the one that obtained the 13 CLR from the crew while I was counting. 14 Q 

### And the load manifests that you 15 obtained, you didn't get it from the crew, you 16 got it from SkyWest Corporate? 17 A 

### That is correct. 18 Q 

### Okay. Now, with respect to 19 let's go back to Exhibit C-1 and C-2. Do you 20 have them in front of you? 21 A 

### Yes. I'm looking at C-1. 22 Q 

### Okay. By the way, before you go

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### 1 to that, with respect to you took pictures of 2 the bags. How come you didn't take pictures 3 of the live animals? 4 A 

### I'm not sure. 5 Q 

### Okay. And what kind of live 6 

### animals were they? Were they dogs, cats, 7 horses, pigs? 8 A I don't recall

. 9 Q 

### Now, there are three ways to carry 10 

### an animal on a SkyWest flight. Right? 11 A 

### I believe there is two ways. 12 Q 

### Well, if you have a service 13 animal, you can bring that service animal 14 onboard the aircraft. 15 A 

### That is correct. Yes, that is the 16 third way. 17 Q 

### Okay. As a matter of fact, if you 18 bring a service animal onboard the aircraft, 19 the animal is included in the passenger 20 weight. So, that animal has a weight of zero 21 

### under the weight and balance program. 22 Correct?

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1 A 

### I can't say for sure. 2 Q 

### You're not familiar with the 3 weight and balance program? 4 A 

### I'm not familiar with the service 5 animal weight but I believe you are correct. 6 Q 

### Okay. So, if somebody brought, 7 oh, a common service animal is a golden 8 

### retrieveror a Labradorretriever, if somebody 9 

### brought a 70-poundgoldenretrieveronboardof 10 SkyWest flight as a service animal, that 70- 11 pound animal would have a weight of zero. 12 Correct? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Okay. Now, let's say a passenger 15 were to bring their pet golden retriever or 16 Labrador retriever onboard a SkyWest flight, 17 not a service animal, so it would go as -- the 18 

### dog would go as cargo. Is that correct? 19 A 

### That is correct. 20 Q 

### Okay. So a 70-pound dog, plus the 21 kennel would go as heavy baggage? 22 A 

### I believe it is either counted as

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### 1 checked baggage or it is the actual weight of 2 the animal itself as cargo. 3 Q 

### Okay, so in other words, again, 4 one way to bring an animal, aside from onboard 5 as a service animal, is to bring the animal as 6 baggage, in which case under the SkyWest 7 program, the animal and the container either 8 get a weight of 30 or a weight of 60, 9 depending upon how big the animal is. 10 Correct? 11 A 

### I believe it is either 30 pounds 12 or the actual weight of the animal itself but 13 with the kennel as cargo. 14 Q 

### But there is another means of 15 counting the animal's weight and that is, if 16 

### the animal is shipped straight. Correct? 17 A 

### Right. That is the way that I was 18 just explaining. 19 Q 

### Okay. So, in other words, if the 20 animal is cargo, depending upon the size of 21 the animal and its kennel, it could either be 22 30 pounds or 60 pounds. Correct?

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1 A 

### Correct. 2 Q 

### Okay. So, in other words, if you 3 have the 70-pound golden retriever and you 4 have a 20-pound kennel, that is 90 pounds, 5 that is treated as baggage, then it is 6 recorded as 60 pounds and it is perfectly 7 

### legal. Correct? Because that is what the 8 

### weight and balance program says. Right? 9 A 

### To be honest, I 'm not sure. I 

### 10 think, in that situation, it would be counted 11 as freight. And it would be the actual weight 12 of the animal plus their container. 13 Q 

### No question. If you have an 14 animal that is sent as freight, I am not 15 flying on the airplane, I just want to deliver 16 this golden retriever to my brother on the 17 other side of the country. I am going to ship 18 

### the animal as freight. Then, it is actual 19 weight of the animal plus the weight of the 20 kennel or the container and it is actual 21 weight. Correct? 22 A 

### Correct.

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1 Q 

### Okay. But if I am traveling as a 2 passenger on a SkyWest animal

-- on SkyWest 3 Airlines and I want to bring my pet, then I 4 check the pet as baggage

. And as baggage, it 5 

### is either 30 pounds or 60 pounds. Correct? 6 A 

### Correct. 7 Q 

### So, even though I have my 70-pound 8 pet plus a 20-pound kennel which weighs 90 9 pounds, it is correctly, under the weight and 10 balance program, recorded as 60 pounds. 11 A 

### In that situation, yes, just like 12 a heavy bag. 13 Q 

### Okay. But if it were a service 14 animal, it would be zero. 15 A 

### Correct. 16 Q 

### Now, with respect to these live 17 animals on the CLR, as you sit here today, do 18 you know whether they were service animals, 19 whether they were cargo, or whether they were 20 freight? 21 A 

### I don't believe they were service 22 animals because they were in the cargo

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1 

### compartment. So, they were either checked 2 baggage or freight. 3 Q 

### Well

-- 4 A 

### I don't know for sure. 5 Q 

### Okay. Well, for instance, 6 somebody who needs a service animal, I 

### mean, 7 let's face it, the CRJ cabins are a little 8 tight and somebody, although they need a 9 service animal, may not want to have that dog 10 sitting where his feet would normally go and 11 might opt to check that animal as baggage. 12 Correct? 13 A I 

### don't think so. 14 Q 

### Now, let's go back to C-1 and C-2. 15 Pardon me for my digression. We have the CLR 16 for Flight 5840 and we have the C-2 is the 17 load manifest. So, where do the numbers from 18 the cargo load report appear in Exhibit C-2 in 19 the load manifest? 20 A 

### Well, if you were to add the 21 weights from the CLR, then the weights that 22 were on the CLR would equal the weight

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### 1 indicator where it says cargo. 2 Q 

### Well, I am looking at Exhibit C-1 3 and it shows

-- it is a really, really lousy 4 copy but what do you see as the weight of the 5 bags? 6 A 

### From Exhibit C-1? 7 Q 

### Yes. 8 A 

### There is not a weight indicated. 9 There is a count indicated. 10 Q 

### Okay. So, from that count, I mean 11 as you sit here today, can you say that the-- 12 if you took the baggage count on C-1 and added 13 it up times 30, times 60, whatever, you would 14 get the exact cargo weight number that is in 15 C-2? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And you have actually done that? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### So, there are you have 19 20 standard checkedbags and 15 plane side valet 21 items. So, that is a total of 34. Is that 22 correct?

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1 

### A Yes. 2 Q 

### Thirty-four times thirty? 3 

### A Correct. 4 Q 

### Okay and what does that come out 5 

### to? 6 

### A I'd probably need a calculator to 7 

### tell you that. 8 Q 

### But that was your methodology in 9 

### each of these cases. Is that correct? 10 A Correct. And there is also 92 11 pounds of freight that the CLR indicated. 12 Q 

### Okay. And was that your 13 methodology with respect to Flight 4540 and 14 Exhibits C-18 and C-19? You basically took 15 the numbers of iterns reflected in the CLR, 16 multiplied it times the correspondingweight, 17 and compared that number to the cargo weight 18 ln the load manifest? 19 A 

### That is correct. 20 Q 

### And likewise, without wasting a 21 lot of time, you did the same methodology for 22 C-21 and C-22, C-24 and C-25, and C-27, and 

## cNEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443387 

### 1 28? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Did

-- I realize that SkyWest is 4 

### the air carrier. They are responsible for 5 what goes on in their air planes. But in each 6 of these cases, did SkyWestpersonnel load the 7 airplanes and complete the CLRs? 8 A No. 9 Q 

### Who did? 10 A 

### There is five different stations 11 we are talking about here. Probably various 12 contractors. I can't tell you exactly who 13 they were. 14 Q 

### Okay. Did other airlines load the 15 SkyWest flights and prepare the CLRs? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### What other airlines? 18 A I 

### believe the flight that 19 

### originated from Houston to Charlotte. That 20 Houston, I believe was Continental. The other 21 ones, I would just be guessing. I don't know 22 for sure.

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1 Q Okay. In connection with these 2 flights, did you go back to the originating 3 stations and say hey, something here is not 4 right? You prepared a CLR which didn't 5 correspond to the bags that I saw coming off 6 the airplane. 7 A No, I let SkyWest do that. 8 Q With respect to the heavy bags, 9 other than the fat that they had tags on them, 10 how do you know they were heavy? 11 A Some of the heavy baggage, the 12 act.ual luggage tag will say heavy or 13 overweight on it. 14 Q Okay, here is why. I travel a 15 lot. And sometimes my bags have a heavy bag 16 tag on them. Okay? And I don't remove them. 17 And when I check in on the next flight, in 18 many cases, the customer service agent really 19 doesn't remove them. So, even though my bag 20 may not be heavy, it still has the tag. 21 Did you consider that possibility? 22 A No, I did not.

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1 Q 

### Is there a possibility that the 2 

### people who loaded the aircraft at each of 3 these stations may very well have correctly 4 

### counted what they put on the aircraft but 5 

### these otherbags had been on the aircraft from 6 

### a previous leg? 7 A 

### I would say that is a remote 8 

### possibility because part of the loading 9 

### agent's responsibility is to check the cargo 10 

### bin before they begin loading to make sure 11 

### that doesn't happen. 12 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 13 

### further questions. 14 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY 

### MR. HARPER: 16 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, were any of the 17 

### flights that you inspected operated by Delta 18 

### Airlines? 19 A 

### No. 20 Q 

### Were any of them operated by 21 

### United? 22 A 

### No.

NEAL R. GROSS (202)234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·443390

1 Q 

### How about Alaska? 2 

### A No. 3 Q 

### Continental? 4 

### A No. 5 Q 

### Who operated all of the flights 6 

### that you inspected? 7 A 

### SkyWest Airlines. 8 Q 

### Now under SkyWest weight and 9 balance program, Mr. Dworkin discussed at 10 length how live animals are documented in 11 

### terms of how much they weigh. Is there 12 anything else when it comes to a live animal 13 that has to be done on the cargo load report 14 when it comes to live animals, regardless of 15 how they are loaded into the cargo bin? 16 A 

### If there is live animals in the 17 cargo compartment, then the loading agents 18 should circle live animal and indicate which 19 bin they are in. 20 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, have you, yourself, 21 ever flown with any checked baggage? 22 A 

### Can you repeat the question?

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHDDE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443391

1 Q 

### Have you, when you were flying, 2 have you ever taken an airline flight as a 3 passenger? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### And on that flight, have you 6 

### checked on any of those flights, have you 7 

### checked baggage? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### When you check your baggage, does 10 

### the agent remove any tags that were on the 11 

### baggage from an earlier flight? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 

### MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 14 further questions. 15 

### MR. DWORKIN: No re-cross, Your 16 Honor. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, are 18 you going to keep this witness or is he 19 excused? Your call. 20 

### MR. HARPER: He is excused, Your 21 

### Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Sir, I

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443392 

### 1 am going to instruct you not to discuss your 2 testimonywith anybodyprior to conclusion of 3 

### the hearing. Subject to Mr. Harper's 4 

### instructions, you are free to go, which means 5 

### you can leave the courthouse. 6 

### You may step down. 7 

### MR. PERKINS: What do I do with 8 

### this stuff? 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just leave all 10 

### that there. 11 

### It is 25 

### after. I know, I have 12 

### been doing this for more days than you can 13 

### count. 14 

### MR. DWORKIN: But it is accurate 15 

### two times a day. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That is probably 17 

### more accurate than most of our watches. 18 

### I have got about 23 

### after. Let's 19 

### take a short break and then we will come back 20 

### on the record. There are no witnesses on the 21 

### stand, so I won't do an instruction. So, 22 let's go off the record.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·443393 

### 1 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 2 went off the record at 10:23 a.m. 3 

### and went back on the record at 4 

### 10:43 a.m.) 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back on 6 the record. 7 Mr. Harper, you want to call your 8 next witness? 9 

### MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 10 McKenna. 11 Whereupon, 12 JAMES HOWARD MC KENNA, JUNIOR 13 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 14 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 15 witness stand and was examined and testified 16 as follows: 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 18 State your name for the record and spell your 19 first and last name. 20 THE WITNESS: My name is James 21 HowardMcKenna, Junior. The first name is J-- 22 A-M-E-S, last name M-C, capital K-E-N-N-A.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443394

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. HARPER: 3 Q Mr. McKenna, could you briefly 4 describe your background in aviation? 5 A I have a little over 27 years in 6 aviation, four militaryand sevenyears in FAA 7 surveillance, and another 16 in commercial in 8 maintenance. 9 Q Do you hold any airman 10 certificates? 11 A I do. I have an airframe and 12 powerplant certificate that I have had since 13 1990. 14 Q What do you do for a living? 15 A I am an aviation safety inspector, 16 geographic inspector. I have surveillance 17 activities over SkyWest Airlines, Certificate 18 Management Office. 19 Q How long have you worked for the 20 worked for the FAA? 21 A Coming up on seven years in July. 22 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest

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### 1 airlines in any way? 2 A 

### No, sir. 3 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 4 SkyWest Airlines in any way? 5 A 

### No, sir. 6 Q I 

### would like to turn your 7 attention to FAA Case Number 2011-NM-060047 8 before this Court as DMS Number FAA-2012-0872. 9 Are you familiar with this case? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 12 A 

### One of the enforcement sent it as 13 a result on one of my inspections. 14 Q 

### Did that inspection take place on 15 March 14, 2011? 16 A 

### Yes, it did. 17 Q 

### Where were you when you performed 18 that inspection? 19 A 

### Sioux Falls Regional Airport in 20 South Dakota. 21 Q 

### What was the purpose of that 22 inspection?

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1 A 

### Cargo handling inspection, EPI. 2 Q I 

### would like to turn your 3 attention to Flight 6960 from Denver to Sioux 4 

### Falls. Was that one of the flights you 5 

### inspected on that date? 6 A 

### Yes, sir. 7 Q 

### As part of that inspection, did 8 

### you count the luggage that was onboard Flight 9 6960? 10 A 

### Yes, sir. 11 Q 

### Do you recall how many heavy bags 12 were onboard Flight 6960? 13 A 

### Yes, sir. 14 Q 

### How many? 15 A 

### There was one. 16 Q 

### How did you recognize that it was 17 a heavy bag? 18 A 

### It had an orange tag marked heavy 19 attached to the bag itself. 20 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 21 were counting the cargo? 22 A 

### To the rear of the cargo loader.

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1 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 2 cargo as it came off of the plane? 3 A 

### Yes, I did. 4 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 5 relevant to that flight? 6 A 

### Yes, sir, I did. 7 Q 

### What documents? 8 A 

### The cargo load report. 9 Q 

### Did you get the cargo load report 10 from the originating station in Denver? 11 A 

### No, sir, I did not. 12 Q 

### Who did you get the cargo load 13 report from? 14 A 

### From the flight crew. 15 Q 

### I would like you to turn to Tab C16 13 in the binder in front of you. And during 17 the break, I did check to make sure that all 18 the exhibits are now under their correct tabs. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. Did 20 you double-check mine? 21 MR. HARPER: 

### I did not double22 check yours, Your Honor.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443398

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, well, just 2 do that at your convenience. 3 BY MR. HARPER: 4 Q 

### Mr. McKenna, do you recognize the 5 document that has beenmarkedExhibit C-13 for 6 identification? 7 A 

### Yes, sir, I do. 8 Q 

### What is it? 9 A 

### It is a cargo load report for 10 flight 6960 that originated in Denver and 11 arrived in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. 12 Q 

### Is it the original or a copy? 13 A 

### This is a copy. 14 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 15 you obtained from the flight crew? 16 A 

### Yes, it is. 17 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 18 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-13 WAS 19 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 20 

### BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-15, 22 do you recognize this document?

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1 A 

### Yes, sir, I do. 2 Q 

### What is it? 3 A 

### This would be a photograph of the 4 heavy tag that was attached to the bag, as 5 well as the bag tag. 6 Q 

### And if you could, just turn the 7 page. There is multiple pages. 8 A 

### The second page is a photo of a 9 

### bag tag that I took also. 10 Q 

### Do these photos accuratelyreflect 11 what you saw that date? 12 A 

### Yes, sir. 13 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 14 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-15 WAS 15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 16 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 17 time, we would like to move what has been 18 marked as Complainant 1

### s Exhibit 13 and 15 for 19 identificationinto evidence as Complainant 1

### s 20 13 and 15. 21 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 22 Honor.

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 13 2 and 15 for identification are received into 3 evidence as Complainant's 13 and 15. 4 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 5 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 6 

### EXHIBITS C-13 

### AND C-15 WERE 7 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 8 

### MR. HARPER: And on Complainant's 9 C-15 I would note that the passenger'sname is 10 visible and I would suggest that

-- 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, I will redact 12 all that. I think just what I will try to do 13 is I will redact all of the

-- with exception 14 of the flight number. I don't think we care 15 about flight number, which I assume is 6960. 16 Is that correct. 17 

### MR. HARPER: I think the flight 18 number would probably be the most relevant 19 piece of information. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I will 21 redact all of the other numbers and if I see 22 any name, I will redact it. Can the bar code

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### 1 actually be read by a scanner and give any 2 meaningful information? 3 

### MR. HARPER: I don't know the 4 answer to that question, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Then, I will make 6 sure you won't be able to get any meaningful 7 information off of it. 8 

### So, Complainant's 13 and 15 for 9 identification are received into evidence as 10 Complainant's 13 and 15. 11 BY MR. HARPER: 12 Q 

### Mr. McKenna, did the cargo load 13 report you obtained for the flight correctly 14 reflect the number of heavy bags that you 15 observed as being on the aircraft? 16 A 

### No, sir, it did not. 17 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions. 18 

### MR. DWORKIN: No cross, Your 19 Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 21 

### MR. DWORKIN: Well, actually 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433102

1 BY MR. DWORKIN: 2 Q This is the flight crew copy of 3 the CLR. Is that correct? 4 A Yes, sir, it is. 5 Q You did not obtain the station 6 copy? 7 A No, sir, I did not. 8 Q You did not attempt to obtain the 9 station copy. 10 A No, Slr, I did not. 11 MR. DWORKIN: No further 12 questions. 13 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 14 Honor. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 17 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 18 hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper as to whether 19 you have to remain for the remainder of the 20 hearing. The Court excuses you. 21 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 2 2 Aaron Perkins

.

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### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Up here. 2 MR. PERKINS: Good morning, Your 3 Honor. 4 Whereupon, 5 AARON PERKINS 6 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 7 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 8 witness stand and was examined and testified 9 as follows: 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 11 State your name for the record and 12 spell your first and last name. 13 

### THE WITNESS: My name is Aaron 14 

### Perkins. The first name is A-A-R-0-N, last 15 name Perkins, P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Proceed, counsel. 17 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 

### BY MR. HARPER: 19 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, could you briefly 20 

### describe your background in aviation? 21 A 

### A former airlinepilot experienced 22 both domestically and internationally. The

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### 1 last position I held was a CRJ captain before 2 the FAA. 3 Q 

### What airlines have you flown for? 4 A I 

### flew for Scenic Airlines, Air 5 

### Wisconsin Airlines here domestically. 6 Overseas, two companies; one called Arik Air 7 and other place called ACAS. 8 Q 

### What certificates and ratings do 9 you hold? 10 A I 

### hold an FAA TP, 

### airline 11 transport pilot certificate and a certified 12 flight instructor certificate. 13 Q 

### What type ratings? 14 A I 

### hold a CL-65 type rating and an 15 ERJ-170, ERJ-190 type. 16 Q 

### What do you do for a living now? 17 A I'm 

### an FAA aviation safety 18 instructor. 19 Q 

### How long have you worked for the 20 FAA? 21 A I 

### was hired February 2011. 22 Q 

### What office are you assigned to?

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1 A 

### The SkyWest CertificateManagement 2 Office. 3 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 4 SkyWest Airlines in any way? 5 A 

### No. 6 Q 

### I would like you to turn your 7 

### attention now to FAA 

### Case Number 2012-NM8 

### 060014 before this Court as DMS Number FAA

### 9 2013-0619. 10 Are you familiar with this case? 11 A 

### Yes, I 

### am. 12 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 13 A 

### This is a case that I 

### wrote 14 following surveillance on a SkyWest aircraft. 15 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 16 on November 16, 2011? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### Where did you perform that 19 surveillance? 20 A 

### Rock Springs Airport. 21 Q 

### Where is Rock Springs Airport? 22 A 

### Wyoming.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433106

1 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 2 surveillance? 3 A 

### The purpose was to surveil SkyWest 4 Airlines' weight and balance program. 5 Q 

### As part of that surveillance, did 6 you perform inspection on Flight 5449 from 7 Denver to Rock Springs? 8 A 

### Yes, I did. 9 Q 

### Did you count the baggage onboard 10 that flight as part of your inspection? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### How many heavy bags were onboard 13 the flight? 14 A 

### There was one heavy bag. 15 Q 

### How did you know that was a heavy 16 bag? 17 A 

### The heavy bags are clearly marked 18 with an orange tag that says heavy. And those 19 get affixed to baggage weighing between 51 20 pounds and 99. 21 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 22 cargo as it came off of the aircraft?

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### 107

1 A 

### Yes, I did. 2 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 3 relevant to the flight? 4 A 

### I did. I obtained a cargo load 5 report from the captain upon arrival. 6 Q 

### And did you any other 7 documents? 8 A 

### I obtained the load manifest from 9 SkyWest headquarters a few days' after the 10 flight. 11 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 12 documents from any personnel in Denver, the 13 origination point of the flight? 14 A 

### No, I didn't. 15 Q 

### I would like you to turn to what 16 

### has been marked as Tab C-34 

### in the binder in 17 front of you. 18 

### MR. DWORKIN: I'm sorry. What 19 

### number, Jeff? 20 

### MR. HARPER: Thirty-four. 21 BY MR. HARPER: 22 Q 

### Do you recognize this document?

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1 A 

### Yes, I do. 2 Q 

### What is it? 3 A 

### This is the cargo load report I 4 obtained from the captain of SkyWest Flight 5 5449. 6 Q 

### Is it the original or a copy? 7 A 

### This is a copy. 8 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 9 you obtained from the captain of the flight? 10 A 

### Yes, it is. 11 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 12 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-34 WAS 13 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 14 

### BY MR. HARPER: 15 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-35. 16 Do you recognize this document? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### What is it? 19 A 

### This is the load manifest that was 20 prepared by the crew of SkyWest Flight 5449. 21 Q 

### Is it the original or a copy? 22 A 

### This is a copy.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433109

1 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy? 2 A 

### Yes, it is. 3 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 4 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-35 WAS 5 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 6 

### BY MR. HARPER: 7 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-36. 8 Do you recognize this document? 9 A I 

### do. 10 Q 

### What is it? 11 A 

### This is a picture that I took of 12 the heavy bag that was offloaded Flight 5449. 13 Q 

### Does it accurately reflect what 14 you saw when you took the photo? 15 A 

### Yes, it does. 16 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 17 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-36 WAS 18 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 19 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 20 time, we would like to move what has been 21 previouslymarked as Complainant's34, 35, and 22 36 for identification into evidence as

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### 1 Complainant's 34, 35, and 36. 2 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 3 Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 34, 5 35, and 3 6 are received into evidence as 6 Complainant's 34, 35, and 36. 7 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 8 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 9 

### EXHIBITS C-34 through C-36 WERE 10 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 11 

### BY MR. HARPER: 12 Q 

### Mr. Perkins, did the cargo load 13 report for this flight correctly reflect the 14 baggage that you observedas being onboardthe 15 aircraft? 16 A 

### No, it didn't. 17 Q 

### What was the difference? 18 A 

### The difference was one heavy bag. 19 Q 

### That means the heavy bag was not 20 shown on the cargo load report? 21 A 

### The heavy bag was not shown on the 22 cargo load report.

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1 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions, 2 Your Honor. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 5 Q 

### Did you count the total number of 6 pieces coming off the airplane? 7 A 

### I did, sir. 8 Q 

### Okay. So, the CLR, Exhibit C-34, 9 shows

-- it is poor copy but it shows about 27 10 pieces that came off the aircraft. 11 A That is correct. 12 Q 

### And how many pieces came off the 13 aircraft, according to your observation? 14 A Twenty-eight. 15 Q 

### Twenty-eight. So, it wasn't a 16 matter of the heavy bag was treated as a 17 standard bag but there were actually 28 bags 18 that came off the airplane. 19 A 

### That is correct, sir. 20 MR

. DWORKIN: Okay, no further 21 questions. 22 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your

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### 1 Honor. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 3 

### instruct you not to discuss your testimony 4 

### with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 5 

### hearing. Subject to Mr. Harper's 6 

### instructions, you are free to go. 7 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 8 

### time, I 

### would like to call Michelle 9 Wallentine. 10 MR. DWORKIN: Case number? 11 

### MR. HARPER: If you would give me 12 just a second. 2012-869 and 2012-873 and 13 2013-0617. 14 Whereupon, 15 MICHELE WALLENTINE 16 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 17 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 18 witness stand and was examined and testified 19 as follows: 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 21 State your name for the record and 22 spell your first and last name for the record.

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1 

### THE WITNESS: Michele Wallentine, 2 M-I-C-H-E-L-E, W-A-L-L-E-N-T-I-N-E. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 4 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 

### BY MR. HARPER: 6 Q 

### Ms. Wallentine, could you briefly 7 describe your background in aviation? 8 A 

### Yes. I worked for 30 years in 9 working for the Air Force Reserves and as a 10 civil servant for the Air Force. 11 Q 

### Who do you work for now? 12 A 

### I work for the Federal Aviation 13 Administration in Denver, Colorado. 14 Q 

### What do you do for the FAA? 15 A 

### I'm an aviation safety inspector. 16 Q 

### How long have you been with the 17 FAA? 18 A 

### Thirteen years. 19 Q 

### Has all that time been spent as an 20 aviation safety inspector? 21 A 

### Yes, it has. 22 Q 

### Are you an employee of SkyWest in

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### 1 any way? 2 A 

### No. 3 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 4 SkyWest? 5 A 

### Never. 6 Q I 

### would like to turn your 7 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM8 060072 before this Court as DMS Number FAA9 2012-0869. Are you familiar with this case? 10 A I 

### am. 11 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 12 A I 

### was the inspector on-site when 13 the event incident occurred. 14 Q 

### The date the incident occurred, as 15 you described it, was that May 5, 2011? 16 A 

### That's correct. 17 Q 

### What were you doing that day for 18 the FAA? 19 A I 

### was assisting the SkyWest 20 Certificate Management Office ln 

### doing 21 surveillance on SkyWest Airlines. 22 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place

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### 1 in Colorado Springs? 2 A 

### Yes, it did. 3 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 4 surveillance? 5 A 

### It was to ensure that the amount 6 

### of cargo and baggage unloaded on the aircraft 7 

### matched the CLR. 8 Q I 

### would like to turn your 9 attention now to Flight 1160 

### from Houston to 10 Colorado Springs. Was this one of the flights 11 that you performed surveillance on? 12 A 

### Yes. 13 Q 

### As part of that surveillance, did 14 you count the baggage that was onboard the 15 flight? 16 A 

### I did. 17 Q 

### Do you recall how many standard 18 bags were onboard the flight? 19 A 

### I do not. 20 Q 

### Is there anything that would help 21 you recall how many bags you countedthat day? 22 A 

### Yes, if I 

### could review my

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### 1 inspector statement, that would be helpful. 2 

### MR. HARPER: Permission to 3 approach, Your Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 

### MR. HARPER: I am handing to 6 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 7 judge and the witness the document that has 8 been previously marked as Exhibit C-102 for 9 

### identification. 10 BY MR. HARPER: 11 Q 

### Ms. Wallentine, if you could 12 review that document and just look up to let 13 me know when you have finished. 14 Do you recall now how many bags 15 you counted as being aboard Flight 1160? 16 A 

### Yes, I do. There were 3 5 standard 17 bags and 24 valet bags. 18 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 19 

### counted the bags? 20 A At the baggage loading. 21 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 22 

### bags as they came off the plane?

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1 A 

### Yes, I did. 2 Q I 

### would like to turn your 3 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM4 060063 before this Court as DMS Number FAA5 2012-0873. 6 Are you familiar with this case? 7 A I 

### am. 8 Q 

### How are you familiar with this it? 9 A 

### I was the inspector on-site at the 10 time of the incident. 11 Q 

### At the time was the surveillance 12 to take place on April 7, 20117 13 A 

### That's correct. 14 Q 

### And was that surveillance 15 performed at Colorado Springs? 16 A 

### Yes, it was. 17 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 18 surveillance? 19 A 

### It was to ensure that the cargo 20 and baggage count matched the CLR. 21 Q 

### If I could turn your attentionnow 22 to Flight 6756 from Chicago to Colorado

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### 1 Springs. Did you count the baggage onboard 2 this flight? 3 A 

### I did. 4 Q 

### Do you recall how many standard 5 bags were onboard Flight 6756? 6 A 

### I do. 7 Q 

### Is there anything that would help 8 

### you remember? 9 A 

### My inspector statement would be 10 helpful. 11 Q 

### Your inspector statement or 12 somebody else's inspector statement? 13 A 

### Mr. Chavez' inspector statement 14 might be helpful. 15 MR. HARPER: Permission to 16 approach, Your Honor? 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 18 

### MR. HARPER: I'm handing what has 19 been previously marked as Complainant's 20 Exhibit C-105 for identification to opposing 21 counsel, the court reporter, the Judge, and 22 the witness.

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1 BY MR. HARPER: 2 Q Ms. Wallentine, if you could 3 review that statement and, when you are 4 finished, just look up so I know you are 5 finished. 6 Do you recall now how many 7 standard bags were on Flight 6756? 8 A Yes, there were 33. 9 Q Do you recall how many heavy bags 10 were on Flight 6756? 11 A There were two. 12 Q Where were you standing when you 13 were counting the baggage? 14 A At the baggage loading belt. 15 Q How did you recognize that heavy 16 bags were heavy bags? 17 A They were tagged, I believe it is 18 an orange heavy bag tag. It states heavy bag 19 on it. 20 Q Did you have a clear view of the 21 baggage as it came off of the aircraft? 22 A Yes, I did.

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433120

1 Q I 

### would like to turn your 2 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM3 060095 before this Court as DMS Number FAA4 2013-086

-- I'm sorry -- FAA-2013-0617. 5 Are you familiar with this case? 6 A 

### I am. 7 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 8 A 

### I was the inspector on-site at the 9 time of the incidence. 10 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 11 July 14, 20117 12 A 

### Yes, it did. 13 Q 

### And were at Colorado Springs when 14 you performed the surveillance? 15 A 

### I was. 16 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 17 surveillance? 18 A 

### Was to ensure that the cargo and 19 the baggage loadedon the aircraftmatchedthe 20 CLR. 

### 21 Q 

### If I could turn your attention now 22 to Flight 1160 from Houston to Colorado

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433121 1 Springs, is that one of the aircraft you 2 inspected that day? 3 A It was. 4 Q Do you recall how many standard 5 bags were on Flight 1160? 6 A I do not. 7 Q Is there anything that would help 8 you remember? 9 A My inspector statement would be 10 helpful. 11 MR. HARPER: I am handing to 12 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 13 Judge, and the witness, what has been 14 previously marked as Exhibit C-103 for 15 identification. Permission to approach? 16 (No audible response.) 17 BY MR. HARPER: 18 Q Ms. Wallentine, if you could 19 review that document and look up and let me 20 know when you are -- you beat me to it. 21 Do you recall now how many 22 standard bags were on Flight 1160?

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1 

### A There were 43. 

### 2 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 3 

### counted the baggage? 4 

### A At the baggage loading belt. 5 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of the 6 

### cargo as it came off the plane? 7 A 

### Yes, I did. 8 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 9 relevant to this flight? 10 A 

### I did. 11 Q 

### What documents? 12 A 

### The CLR and then the ACARS load 13 

### manifest. 14 Q 

### What does ACARS stand for? 15 A It 

### is Aircraft Communications 16 

### Addressing and Reporting System. 17 Q 

### What is that? 18 A 

### It is a system that the crew 19 

### inputs data into, such as they take 20 

### information on the baggage count and 21 

### passengers and input them into the ACARS 22 system.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433123

1 Q 

### And just so I understand, you 2 obtained both the documents from the flight 3 crew on the flight deck. 4 A I did. 5 Q 

### Did you speak to any SkyWest 6 employees or contractors in Houston, the 7 originationpoint of the flight to obtain any 8 of those documents? 9 A 

### No, I did not. 10 Q 

### If you could please turn in the 11 

### binder in front of you to Tab C-32. If you 12 could verify at the bottom right it is marked 13 Exhibit C-32 for identification. A 14 I do see that. Q 

### 15 Do you recognize this document? A 17 What is it? Q 

### A 18 It is the CLR. Q 

### 19 Is it the original CLR or is it a 20 

### copy? 21 A It is a true copy. 22 Q 

### A true copy of the CLR you

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433124 1 obtained from the flight crew? 2 A Correct. 3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 4 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-32 WAS 5 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 6 BY MR. HARPER: 7 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-33. 8 And if you could just verify it is marked 9 Exhibit C-33 at the bottom. 10 A It is. 11 Q Do you recognize this document? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q What is it? 14 A It is the load manifest. 15 Q Is it the original or a copy? 16 A It is a copy. 17 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 18 manifest you obtained from the flight crew? 19 A It is. 20 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 21 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-33 WAS 22 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

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1 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 2 time, we would like to move what has been 3 previouslymarked as Complainant'sExhibit 32 4 and 33 for identification into evidence as 5 

### Complainant's 32 and 33. 6 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 32 8 

### and 33 for identification are received into 9 

### evidence as Complainant's 32 and 33. 10 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 11 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 12 

### EXHIBITS C-32 AND C-33 WERE 13 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 14 

### BY MR. HARPER: 15 Q 

### Did the number of standardbags on 16 

### the CLR match up correctlywith the number of 17 

### bags you countedthat were onboardthe flight? 18 A 

### It did not. 19 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions. 20 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 22 Q 

### Okay, Ms. Wallentine, it looks

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 126 1 like there were three visits to Colorado 2 

### Springs. One on May 5th, one on April 7th, 3 the other one on July 14, 2011. I didn't get 4 

### them in correct chronological order. I 

### 5 apologize. 6 

### So, were all these trips that you 7 made to Colorado Springs for the purpose of 8 

### counting baggage? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Were there other SkyWest flights 11 that flew into Colorado Springs on those 12 dates? 13 A 

### Yes. 14 Q 

### Were there any discrepancies with 15 those? 16 A No. 

### 17 Q 

### How many other SkyWest flights did 18 

### you observe on those three dates? 19 

### A I 

### don't recall. 20 Q 

### Estimate? Five, ten? 21 A I 

### would say ten. 22 Q 

### Ten flights per day?

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1 A 

### I would say so, possibly. 2 Q 

### Okay, but you were there and 3 counting bags on each one of them. 4 A 

### That is correct. 5 Q 

### Okay. So, I take it because you 6 are Denver-based, you are not with the CMO. 7 This was part of some special assignment? 8 A 

### That is correct. 9 Q 

### And you were asked by the CMO to 10 do what? 11 A 

### To compare the amount of cargo and 12 baggage, compare it to the CLR. 13 Q 

### And this was confined to SkyWest? 14 A 

### That is correct. 15 Q 

### So it was some sort of special 16 emphasis inspection regarding SkyWest? 17 A 

### I don't know. 18 Q 

### Were you asked to do this with 19 respect to any other air carriers? 20 A 

### This particular assignment, no. 21 Q 

### Have there been other assignments 22 where you have been asked to count bags coming

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433128 

### 1 off of other air carriers? 2 A 

### No. 3 

### MR. DWORKIN: No further 4 questions. Thank you. 5 

### MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 6 Honor. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I am going to 8 instruct you you are not to discussion your 9 testimonywith anybodyprior to the conclusion 10 of the hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper but 11 you are free to go. 12 MR. DWORKIN: I do have one more 13 question. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 15 

### CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 17 Q 

### This was the pilot's CLR, not the 18 station's, the origination station's CLR. Is 19 that correct? 20 A 

### It was the CLR that the crew 21 handed to me when I requested the CLR. 22 

### MR. DWORKIN: Thank you.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433129

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, subject to 2 Mr. Harper, you are free to go. Again, the 3 same admonishen not to discuss your testimony 4 prior to completion of the hearing. 5 MS. WALLENTINE: Yes, Your Honor. 6 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 7 would like to call Mr. Joseph Chavez. 8 Whereupon, 9 JOSEPH CHAVEZ 10 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 11 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 12 witness stand and was examined and testified 13 as follows: 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 15 State your name for the record and 16 spell your first and last name. 17 THE WITNESS: Joseph Chavez, J-0- 18 S-E-P-H, C-H-A-V-E-Z. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q Mr. Chavez, could you please 22 briefly describe your background in aviation?

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1 A I 

### spent 20 years Air Force 2 military. After that I worked in a 145 repair 3 station. And in 2009 I 

### joined the CMO in 4 Denver. 5 Q 

### What air carriers did that CMO 6 have responsibility for? 7 A 

### At the time, I 

### was on the Links 8 Certificate. 9 Q 

### Are you an employee of SkyWest 10 Airlines in any capacity? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 13 SkyWest Airlines? 14 A 

### No. 15 Q I 

### would like to turn your 16 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM17 060072 before this Court as DMS Number FAA18 2012-0869. Are you familiar with this case? 19 A 

### Yes, I 

### am. 20 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 21 A I 

### was assisting in surveillanceon 22 SkyWest's weight and balance baggage program.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433131

1 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 2 on May 5, 2011? 3 A 

### Yes, it did. 4 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 5 at Colorado Springs Airport? 6 A 

### Yes, it did. 7 Q I 

### would like to turn your 8 attention to Flight 1160 from Houston to 9 

### Colorado. Did you obtain any documents 10 relevant to that flight? 11 A 

### Yes, I 

### did. 12 Q 

### What documents? 13 A 

### The cargo load report and an ACARS 14 or Aircraft Communication Reporting and 15 Addressing-- or excuse me -- Addressing and 16 Reporting System. The ACARS-generated load 17 report. 18 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 19 documents from the origination end of the 20 flight? 21 A 

### From the origination location? 22 Q 

### Yes, from Houston.

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### 1 A 

### No. No, I did not. 2 Q 

### Did you speak to any SkyWest 3 employees or contractors in Houston? 4 A 

### No, I did not. 5 Q 

### Where did you obtain the CLR from? 6 A 

### From the air crew. 7 Q 

### And how about the load manifest? 8 A 

### The load manifest, the air crew 9 was already gone. So, I obtained it from the 10 jet way -- there was a trash bag that they 11 were emptying all the papers from. It was in 12 the trash bag there. 13 Q 

### How did you recognize that it was 14 the load manifest for that flight? 15 A 

### It identifies ACARS on the top. 16 

### It is a computer printout sheet. It also 17 identified the date, the flight number, the 18 originating location, plus the cargo weight. 19 Q 

### Mr. Chavez, if you could please 20 turn to Tab C-3 in the binder in front of you. 21 If you could just verify that at 22 the lower right-hand corner it is marked

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433133 

### 1 Exhibit C-3 for identification. 2 

### A Yes, it is. 3 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 4 

### A Yes, I do. 5 Q 

### What is it? 6 

### A It is a cargo load report. 7 Q 

### Is it the original or is it a 8 

### copy?A 9 It is a true and accurate copy. Q 

### 10 And is that a copy of the cargo 11 load report you obtained from the flight crew 12 for Flight 1160? 13 A 

### Yes, it is. 14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 15 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-3 WAS 16 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 17 

### BY MR. HARPER: 18 Q 

### If you could, please turn now to 19 

### Tab C-4. If you could, verify at the lower 20 right-hand corner it is marked as Exhibit C-4 21 for identification. 22 A 

### Yes, it is.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433134

1 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 2 A 

### Yes, I do. 3 Q 

### What is it? 4 A 

### This is the ACARS load-generated 5 report. 6 Q 

### Is it the original or a copy of 7 

### the one you found in the trash? 8 A 

### It is a true and accurate copy. 9 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 10 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-4 WAS 11 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 12 

### MR. HARPER: Okay, Your Honor, at 13 this time, we would like to move what has been 14 marked as Complainant's 3 and 4 for 15 identificationinto evidence as Complainant's 16 3 and 4. 17 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection with 18 

### respect to C-3. With respect C-4, a very 19 short voir dire, Your Honor. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 21 

### VOIR DIRE 22 

### BY MR. DWORKIN:

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### 1 Q 

### With respect to C-4, this document 2 was in the trash? 3 A 

### Yes, it was. 4 Q 

### Did you ask the flight crew about 5 it? 6 A 

### They were already gone. 7 Q 

### They were already gone? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### So, as you sit here today, you 10 don't know if this was the actual ACARS 11 printout or if it was supersededby something 12 else. All you know is this is a document you 13 found in the trash? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 

### MR. DWORKIN: Well, for whatever 16 it is worth in terms of what weight, Your 17 Honor, I guess we won't object to C-4, other 18 than the fact that to the extent that it is 19 simply a document that the inspector pulled 20 out of the trash and did not ask the crew 21 about it, didn't speak to the crew, we don't 22 know whether it has been supersededby another

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1 

### document or what. But for whatever it is 2 worth, no objection. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It goes to weight. 4 Complainant's4 for identificationis received 5 into evidence as Complainant's 4. 6 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 7 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 8 

### EXHIBIT C-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 9 

### EVIDENCE.) 10 

### BY MR. HARPER: 11 Q 

### Mr. Chavez, looking at Exhibit C12 4, is there a flight number on that document? 13 A 

### Yes, there is. 14 Q 

### What flight number? 15 A 

### Flight 1160. 16 Q 

### And is there a date on that 17 document? 18 A 

### Yes, there is. 19 Q 

### What date? 20 A 

### May 5, 2011. 21 Q 

### Were any airports referred to on 22 that document?

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1 A Yes, there is. 2 Q What airports? 3 A The originating airport that 4 identifies KIAH, which stands for Houston 5 International. 6 Q And is there a time referenced on 7 that document? 8 A Yes, there is. ACARS begins at 9 1418 and 42 seconds, so 2:18 p.m. 10 Q And is that 2:18 p.m. local time 11 or Zulu time? 12 A Normally, it would be Zulu time. 13 Q What is Zulu time? 14 A Zulu time is Greenwich Mean Time. 15 It is approximately six or seven hours ahead 16 of our time here in Denver and Salt Lake City. 17 Q It depends on where

-- 18 A Right. 19 Q -- how far. It depends on where 20 you are and what time of the year? 21 A Yes. 22 Q I would like to turn your

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### 1 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM2 060063. Before this Court is DMS Number FAA3 2012-0873. Are you familiar with this case? 4 A Yes. 5 Q 

### How is it that you are familiar 6 with it? 7 A I 

### was assistingwith surveillance. 8 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 9 on April 7, 2011? 10 A 

### Yes, it did. 11 Q 

### Where did that surveillance take 12 place? 13 A 

### Colorado Springs Airport. 14 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 15 surveillance? 16 A 

### To perform a surveillance on 17 SkyWest's weight and balance baggage program. 18 Q I 

### would like to turn your 19 attention to Flight 6756 from Chicago to 20 Colorado Springs. This is one of the flights 21 that you surveilled that day. 22 A 

### Yes, it is.

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1 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 2 relevant to that flight? 3 A 

### Yes, I did. 4 Q 

### What documents? 5 A I 

### obtained the cargo load report 6 from the air crew. I 

### also obtained an ACARS 7 

### load-generated report from the SkyWest 8 

### personnel there. 9 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 10 documents from Chicago, the originationend of 11 the flight? 12 A 

### No, I 

### did not. 13 Q 

### Did you speak to any SkyWest 14 employees or contractors in Chicago that 15 loaded the bags or completed this paperwork? 16 A 

### No, I 

### did not. 17 Q I 

### would like you to turn now to 18 

### Tab C-16 in the binder in front of you. If 

### 19 you could verify that the document is also 20 marked Exhibit C-16 in the lower right-hand 21 corner. 22 A 

### Yes, it is.

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1 Q Do you recognize this document? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q What is it? 4 A It is the cargo load report. 5 Q Is it the original or a copy? 6 A It is a true and accurate copy. 7 Q Of the cargo load report that you 8 obtained from the flight crew? 9 A Yes, it is. 10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 11 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-16 WAS 12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 13 Q If you could turn now to Exhibit 14 C-17. Again, if you could verify that it is 15 marked Exhibit C-17 in the lower right-hand 16 corner. 17 A Yes, it is. 18 Q Do you recognize this document? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q What is it? 21 A This is the A CARS load-generated 22 report I obtained from the SkyWest ramp

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### 1 personnel. 2 Q 

### Is it a copy of the load manifest 3 you obtained from the ramp supervisor or the 4 original? 5 A 

### Yes, it is. It is a true and 6 accurate copy. 7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 8 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-17 WAS 9 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 10 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 11 time we would like to move into evidence what 12 has beenpreviouslymarked as Complainant's 16 13 and 17 for identification into evidence as 14 Complainant's 16 and 17. 15 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 16 Honor. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 16 18 and 17 for identification are received in 19 evidence as Complainant's 16 and 17. 20 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 21 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 22 

### EXHIBITS C-16 and C-17 

### WERE

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1 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 2 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions, 3 Your Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 5 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 7 Q 

### Mr. Chavez, all these documents 8 you obtained at the arrival station. Is that 9 correct? 10 A 

### That is correct, yes. 11 Q 

### And with the exception of Exhibit 12 C-4, the ACARS load manifest for Flight 1160, 13 which you picked out of the trash, the other 14 load manifest came from SkyWest Airlines. 15 A 

### Yes, it did. 16 Q 

### And specifically with respect to 17 one of these flights, I guess it was 1160, you 18 got it from the SkyWest ramp supervisorat the 19 arrival station. Is that correct? 20 A 

### Which report are you asking? 21 Q 

### The load manifest report. You got 22 

### that from the ramp supervisor. Is that

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1 

### correct? 2 A 

### Yes. Yes, I did. 3 Q 

### And the other ACARS Load Report, 4 not the one you got from the ramp supervisor, 5 

### not the one you got from the trash, where did 6 

### you get that one from? 7 A 

### There were no others, just two. 8 Q 

### There were just two, okay. 9 

### And the CLRs that you obtained, 10 

### these were the flight crew copies. Is that 11 

### correct? 12 

### A They were the copies that the crew 13 

### were given, yes. 14 Q 

### You didn't go back to the 15 originating station? 16 A 

### No. No, I did not. 17 Q 

### And you didn't see the back side 18 of the originating station CLR? 19 A 

### No, I did not. 20 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 21 

### further questions. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect?

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1 

### MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 2 Honor. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 4 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 5 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 6 

### hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper whether or 7 

### not you are free to go. 8 

### MR. CHAVEZ: Thank you. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on a minute. 10 

### Apparently in the record I 

### received 11 Complainant's 4 for identification but not 12 

### Complaint's 3. Both of the exhibits are -- 13 both 3 and 4 are received into evidence as 3 14 and 4. 15 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 16 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 17 

### EXHIBIT C-3 WAS RECEIVED INTO 18 

### EVIDENCE.) 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Mr. 20 Harper. 21 

### MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 22 Ronald Benallo.

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Case number, Jeff? 2 MR. HARPER: 2012-0872. 3 Whereupon, 4 RONALD BENALLO 5 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 6 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 7 witness stand and was examined and testified 8 as follows: 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 10 State your name for the record and 11 spell your first and last name. 12 THE WITNESS: Ronald Benallo, R-0- 13 N-A-L-D, B-E-N-A-L-L-0. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. HARPER: 16 Q Mr. Benallo, could you briefly 17 tell the Court about your background in 18 aviation? 19 A Retired airline mechanic. 20 Q Do you hold any airman 21 certificates? 22 A I do.

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1 

### What certificates? 2 Airframe and powerplant. 3 

### Who do you work for? 4 

### SkyWest CMO in Salt Lake City. 5 

### Is that part of the FAA? 6 

### I'm sorry? 7 

### Is that part of the FAA? 8 

### Yes, sir. 9 

### How long have you worked for the 10

12 And what do you do for the FAA? 13 I help assist and manage SkyWest 14 Airlines operating certificate. 15 Q 

### Are you an aviation safety 16 inspector? 17 A 

### I am an aviation safety inspector. 18 Q I 

### would like to turn your 19 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM20 060047 before this Court SDMS Number FAA-2012- 21 0872. Are you familiar with this case? 22 A I am.

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1 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 2 A 

### I performed a surveillance at the 3 time of the issue. 4 Q 

### Did that surveillance take place 5 

### on March 9, 

### 2011? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Where did you perform that 8 

### surveillance? 9 A 

### In Colorado Springs. 10 Q 

### What was the purpose of the 11 

### surveillance? 12 A 

### Actually I had two. I was 13 

### assignedanElement PerformanceInspectionfor 14 

### cargo Handling Systems and Appliance. And I 15 

### was also assigned to surveil the number of 16 

### bags to ensure that it matched the CLR. 17 Q 

### Is that is the latter the 18 

### subcategory of the former? 19 

### As counting bags, is that part of 20 the cargo handling EPI? 21 A No, 

### that was a 

### separate 22 assignment, in addition.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433148

1 Q I would like to turn your 2 attention to Flight 6756 from Chicago to 3 Colorado Springs. Is this one of the flights 4 you performed and inspection on? 5 A Yes, it was. 6 Q As part of that inspection, did 7 you count the number of bags that were on the 8 flight? 9 A I did. 10 Q Do you recall how many heavy bags 11 were onboard the flight? 12 A I counted one heavy bag on that 13 flight. 14 Q How did you recognize that it was 15 a heavy bag? 16 A It had a heavy bag tag affixed to 17 it. 18 Q Where were you standing when you 19 were counting the luggage that was coming off 20 the aircraft? 21 A At the bottom of the belt loader. 22 Q Did you have a clear view of each

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### 149 1 bag as it came off? 2 A 

### Yes, I did. 3 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 4 relevant to that flight? 5 A 

### I did. I obtained CLR from the 6 flight crew, their copy. 7 Q 

### And any other documents? 8 A 

### I obtained the ACARS report and 9 the dispatch release. 10 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 11 documents from Chicago, the originationpoint 12 of the flight? 13 A 

### I asked for the top copy, the 14 white copy of the CLR to be faxed to the 15 stationmanager's office in Colorado Springs. 16 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-8 17 in the binder in front of you. 18 

### A C? 19 Q 

### Eight. 20 

### A Eight? 21 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 22 

### A Yes, I do.

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1 Q 

### What is it? 2 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 3 report. 4 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 5 cargo load report that you received from 6 SkyWest? 7 A 

### Yes, it is. 8 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 9 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-8 WAS 10 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 11 Q 

### I notice that there is some tick 12 

### marks on the bottom. Was that on the copy 13 

### that you received from SkyWest when you 14 received it from SkyWest? 15 A 

### Those tick marks are my counting 16 the bags coming off. That is my writing. 17 Q 

### I would like to turn now to Tab 

## c18 9. Do you recognize this document? 19 A 

### Yes, I do. 20 Q 

### What is it? 21 A 

### It is the flight release for 22 Flight 6756 from Chicago to Colorado Springs

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433

### 151 1 on March 9, 2011. 2 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 3 flight release you obtained from SkyWest? 4 A It 

### is. 5 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 6 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-9 WAS 7 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 8 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-10. 9 Do you recognize this document? 10 A 

### Yes, I 

### do. 11 Q 

### What is it? 12 A 

### It is a picture of the bag tag 13 

### that I took of the heavybag coming off of the 14 

### bag loader. 15 Q 

### And there is multiple pages on 16 

### this one. So, if you could just tell us what 17 

### the other one is. 18 A 

### They are a picture of the same -- 19 I just got a clearer picture of the serial 20 number, I guess, of the bag tag itself. And 21 then the next picture, 0015 at the bottom, is 22 the whole thing, including the heavy bag tag

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### 1 and the same material, the number with the 2 Flight 6756 on there. 3 Q 

### Do these photos accurate show what 4 you saw that day when you were taking the 5 photo? 6 A 

### Yes, they do. 7 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 8 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-10 WAS 9 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 11 time, we would like to offer what has been 12 marked as Complainant's 8, 9, and 10 into 13 evidence as Complainant's 8, 9, and 10. 14 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 8, 16 9, and 10 for identificationare received into 17 evidence as Complainant's 8, 9 and 10. 18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 20 EXHIBITS C-8, C-9, AND C-10 WERE 21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 22 BY MR. HARPER:

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433153

1 Q 

### Did the baggage count on the CLR 2 for this flight correctly match up with the 3 

### number of bags you counted coming off the 4 

### aircraft? 5 A 

### No. 6 Q I 

### would like to turn your 7 

### attention to Flight 6991 from Chicago to 8 

### Colorado Springs. Did you count the baggage 9 onboard this flight? 10 A 

### Yes, I 

### counted two heavy bags 11 

### coming off but that is all. I 

### stopped when I 

### 12 saw those two come down. 13 Q 

### So you didn't finish counting the 14 

### baggage onboard the aircraft? 15 A 

### No. 16 Q 

### Now, the two heavy bags, is that 17 all the heavy bags that are on the aircraft? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### Where were you standing when you 20 counted the baggage? 21 A 

### Down at the bottom of the belt 22 loader as they were coming off.

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1 Q 

### Did you have a clear view of each 2 bag as it came off? 3 A 

### I did. 4 Q 

### Did you obtain any documents 5 relevant to this flight? 6 A 

### I obtained the CLR from the flight 7 crew, their copy. 8 Q 

### Did you obtain a copy of the load 9 manifest as well? 10 

### A I did. 11 Q 

### Where did you get the load 12 

### manifest from? 13 

### A From SkyWest Airlines. 14 Q 

### Did you obtain any of those 15 

### documents from the originating point of the 16 

### flight in Chicago? 17 A 

### I did. I asked for a faxed copy 18 of the white or the top copy of the CLR as 19 well to be faxed to the Colorado Springs 20 Office. 21 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-11. 22 Do you recognize this document?

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1 A 

### Yes, I do. 2 Q 

### What is it? 3 A 

### It is a copy of the cargo load 4 report. 5 Q 

### Is it a copy of the pilot's copy 6 or the station copy that you received from the 7 

### fax from Chicago? 8 A 

### I'm not sure. 9 Q 

### Is there some text at the bottom 10 of the document that would indicate that it 11 was faxed? 12 A 

### Yes, there is. Okay, this was one 13 faxed. Okay. 14 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 15 that was faxed from Chicago? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 18 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-11 WAS 19 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 20 BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-12, 22 do you recognize this document?

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1 A 

### I do. 2 Q 

### What is it? 3 A 

### It is a copy of the flight release 4 from Flight 6991 from Chicago to Colorado 5 Springs on March 9, 2011. 6 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 7 

### flight release you received from SkyWest? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 10 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-12 WAS 11 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 12 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 13 time we would like to move what has been 14 marked for identificationas Complainant's 11 15 and 12 into evidence as Complainant's 11 and 16 12. 17 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 18 Honor. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 11 20 and 12 for identificatim are received into 21 evidence as Complainant's 11 and 12. 22 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433157

1 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 2 

### EXHIBITS C-11 AND C-12 WERE 3 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 4 

### BY MR. HARPER: 5 Q I 

### would like to turn your 6 attention now to Flight 4464 from Los Angeles 7 to Las Vegas

. 8 

### Did you obtain any documents 9 relatedto that flight takingplace on the 8th 10 of March 2011? 11 A 

### I did. 12 Q 

### What documents? 13 A 

### I obtained the dispatch release 14 and the ACARS data from SkyWest Airlines. 15 Q 

### The ACARS data, would that be the 16 load manifest? 17 A 

### The load manifest, yes. 18 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-6. 19 Do you recognize that document? 20 A I 

### do. 21 Q 

### What is it? 22 A 

### It is a manifest the release for

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433158 

### 1 Flight 4464 from Las Vegas

-- from LAX to Las 2 Vegas March 8, 2011. 3 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the load 4 manifest that you obtained from SkyWest? 5 A 

### Yes, it is. 6 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 7 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-6 WAS 8 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 9 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-14. 10 Did you obtainany documents relatedto Flight 11 6960 from Denver to Sioux Falls, taking place 12 on the 14th of March? 13 A 

### I did. 14 Q 

### What documents? 15 A 

### The flight release manifest for 16 Flight 6960 from Denver to Sioux Falls on 17 March 14, 2011. 18 Q 

### Who did you get it from? 19 A 

### SkyWest Airlines. 20 Q 

### Looking at Exhibit C-14, what is 21 that document? 22 A 

### The flight release.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433159

1 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 2 flight release from that flight that you 3 received from SkyWest? 4 A 

### Yes, it is. 5 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 6 

### TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-14 WAS 7 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 8 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 9 

### time we would like to move into evidence what 10 has been previouslymarked as Complainant's 6 11 and Complainant's 14 for identification into 12 evidence as Complainant's 6 and 14. 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 6 15 and 14 for identification are received into 16 evidence as Complainant's 6 and 14. 17 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 18 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 19 

### EXHIBIT C-6 AND C-14 WERE RECEIVED 20 INTO EVIDENCE. ) 21 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 22 Your Honor.

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 4 Q 

### Good morning, Mr. Chavez. I hope 5 I don't interfere with your lunch plans 6 because we are coming up on noon. 7 

### Looking at Exhibit C-8. 8 A 

### Actually I am Ron Benallo, Slr. 9 Q 

### Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Benallo. Mr. 10 

### Benallo. I'm sorry. 11 Looking at Exhibit C-8, this is 12 

### the cargo load report, the CLR for Flight 13 

### 6756. 14 A 

### Yes, sir. 15 Q 

### So, this CLR is the front page of 16 the CLR that was faxed to you by O'Hare to 17 wherever you were in Colorado Springs. Is 18 that correct? 19 A 

### No, that is not correct. 20 Q 

### Okay. What is this? 21 A 

### This is the copy that I received, 22 the yellow copy that I received from the

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433161 

### 1 flight crews the flight carne in. 2 Q 

### Okay. So, C-8 was the flight crew 3 copy? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### Okay. And under other 6 information,

-- 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### -- 47 bags, no heavy. And then 9 one heavy counted. And then there are some 10 

### tick marks. Is that are those your 11 notations? 12 A 

### Yes, they are. 13 Q 

### And so what you are doing is you 14 are basicallycountinggroups of bags by five. 15 Is that it? 16 A 

### That's correct. 17 Q 

### Which flight was it where you got 18 the CLR from the departure station? 19 A 

### It was both Flights 6756 and 6991, 20 I believe. 21 Q 

### Okay, so which exhibits were 22 those?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE

.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433162

1 MR. HARPER: I believe that would 2 be C-13 and C-11. 3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 4 Q You have the exhibits in front of 5 you. Which CLRs by exhibit number did you get 6 from the originating station? 7 A C-11 is for Flight 6991. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And I'm not certain which the-- 10 MR. HARPER: C-13 is the other 11 CLR. 12 THE WITNESS: C-13? 13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 14 Q So, it was C-11 that you got from 15 the originating station at O'Hare. Is that 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Everythingelse was the pilot copy 19 of the CLR. Is that correct? 20 A Everything else? 21 Q Well, all of the other CLRs were 22 pilot copies.

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1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### Okay. And with respect to the 3 Exhibit C-11, did you ask the Chicago station 4 to also fax you the back side of the CLR, the 5 

### worksheet? 6 A 

### No, I 

### don't believe so. 7 Q 

### Okay. Now, in your testimony, you 8 

### have used three terms, it appears 9 interchangeably. You refer to the documents 10 C-9, C-12, C-14 as the dispatch release, the 11 flight release, the load manifest. What are 12 these documents? 13 A 

### Flight release, sir. 14 Q 

### They are a flight release. 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### So, they are not a load manifest. 17 They are a flight release. 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### Okay. So, basically, all these 20 forms where they have a little box and they 21 have the flight number and the aircraft tail 22 number and the route and the date, those are

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 164

1 

### flight releases, not the load manifest. Is 2 that correct? 3 A 

### That is correct. 4 

### MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 5 questions. Thank you. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 7 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 8 

### BY MR. HARPER: 9 Q 

### Mr. Benallo, in each case, those 10 flight releases contain the gross takeoff 11 weight of the aircraft for the flight in 12 question. 13 A 

### That's correct. 14 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 15 

### RECROSS-EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 17 Q 

### Those flight releases have the 18 gross takeoff weight for the aircraft in 19 question as of the time that the flight 20 

### release is prepared. Is that correct? 21 A 

### Can you rephrase that? 22 Q 

### Well, the flight release

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433165 

### 1 A 

### Which are you speaking of? 2 Q 

### Well, for instance, let's look at 3 Exhibit C-6, which you have in front of you. 4 That flight release contains the data and the 5 gross takeoff weight as of the time that that 6 

### flight release has been prepared. Is that 7 correct? 8 A 

### I believe so. 9 Q 

### Okay. So, if there were any last10 minute changes, late arriving passenger with 11 bags or whatever, if there were any last12 minute changes after the flight release was 13 prepared, the flight release data may very 14 

### well have been changed. Is that correct? 15 A 

### Honestly, I don't know. 16 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 17 further questions. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further, 19 Mr. Harper? 20 

### MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 22 instruct you that you are not to discuss your

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433166 

### 1 testimony with anybody prior to the close of 2 the hearing. You may step down. Subject to 3 instructions from Mr. Harper, you are free to 4 

### go. 5 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, it is 15 6 of 12:00. I think my next witness can get all 7 their testimony in before 12:00, if you would 8 like to wait to take lunch. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 10 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. Ben 11 Blauer. 12 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Inwhatcase, 13 Jeff? 14 MR. HARPER: This is going to be 15 2012-0904. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, Mr. Harper, 17 

### you don't have to check this now. You can 18 check this at the lunch break. I don't show 19 an Exhibit 37. 20 MR. HARPER: That is correct. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have got a 36 22 and a 38 but not a 37.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433167

1 

### MR. HARPER: There is no Exhibit 2 37. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That is why I 4 don't have one. 5 

### Whereupon, 6 

### BENJAMIN HENRY BLAUER 7 

### was called as a witness by the Complainant, 8 

### and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 9 

### witness stand and was examined and testified 10 

### as follows: 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 12 

### State your name for the record and spell your 13 

### first and last name. 14 

### THE WITNESS: My name is Benjamin 15 

### Henry Blauer, B-E-N-J-A-M-I-N, Blauer, B-L-A16 

### U-E-R. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, 18 Counselor. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### Mr. Blauer, could you briefly 22 

### describe for the Court your background in

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### 1 aviation? 2 A I 

### have 17 years in aviation 3 experience teaching flight school in both 4 flight and ground instruction, seven years of 5 airline experience, and nearly seven years 6 with the Federal Aviation Administration. 7 Q 

### Do you hold any airman 8 certificates? 9 A I 

### do. I 

### hold a flight instructor 10 certificate, advanced ground instructor and 11 instrument ground instructor certificates. I 

### 12 also hold an airline transport pilot 13 certificate. 14 Q 

### Do you hold any type ratings? 15 A I 

### have two, one on the Embraer 145 16 and another on the Canada Air CL-600. 17 Q 

### What do you currently do for a 18 living? 19 A I 

### am employed by the Federal 20 Aviation Administration at the SkyWest 21 Certificate Management Office. 22 Q 

### How long have you worked there?

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1 A 

### Nearly seven years. 2 Q 

### Are you an employee of SkyWest 3 Airlines in any way? 4 A 

### No, sir. 5 Q 

### Have you ever been an employee of 6 SkyWest? 7 A 

### No. 8 Q I 

### would like to turn your 9 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM10 060081 before this Court as DMS Number FAA11 2012-0904. Are you familiar with this case? 12 A Yes. 13 Q 

### How are you familiar with it? 14 A 

### I was the inspector involved in 15 writing the case and observed the findings 16 directly. 17 Q 

### Did your observations take place 18 on June 15, 2011? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Were you at Reno-Tahoe 21 InternationalAirportwhenyouwere conducting 22 the inspection that gave rise to these?

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### 1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### What was the purpose of your 3 

### inspection at Reno-Tahoe International 4 Airport? 5 A 

### My purpose there was to conduct 6 

### inspections on SkyWest stations for both 7 

### United, Express, and Delta Connection 8 

### operations out of the Reno Airport. 9 Q I 

### would like to turn your 10 attention to Flight 4781 from Salt Lake City 11 to Reno. As part of your inspection, did you 12 evaluate the cargo that was onboard that 13 flight? 14 A 

### Yes, I did. 15 Q 

### Was there any company material 16 onboard? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### Do you recall how much company 19 material? 20 A 

### There were two boxes of company 21 material onboard the airplane. One that was 22 listed as 130 pounds. The other was listed as

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433171 1 60 pounds. 2 Q That is a total of 190 pounds of 3 company material. 4 A That is correct. 5 Q Were you standing near the cargo 6 door as the cargo was being offloaded? 7 A Yes, I was standing near the aft 8 of the airplane, near the baggagebelt loader. 9 Q Did you have a clear view of each 10 package as it came off the aircraft? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you obtain any documents 13 relevant to that flight? 14 A Specifically, the cargo load 15 report I obtained from the flight crew. I 16 also, from SkyWest Airlines, obtained the 17 dispatch flight release and the loadmanifest. 18 Q Did you obtain any of those 19 documents from Salt Lake City, the origination 20 point of the flight? 21 A No. 22 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-29.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433172 

### 1 If you could just verify that the page is 2 marked Exhibit C-29 for identificationin the 3 lower right-hand corner. 4 

### A Okay. 5 Q 

### Do you recognize this document? 6 

### A Yes, I do. 7 Q 

### What is it? 8 

### A This is the cargo load report for 9 Flight 4781. 10 Q 

### Is it the cargo load report or a 11 copy of the cargo load report? 12 A 

### This is the copy of the carbon 13 portion obtained from the flight crew. 14 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the 15 cargo load report that you received from the 16 flight crew? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 19 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-29 WAS 20 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 21 BY MR. HARPER: 22 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-30.

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### 1 Do you recognize this document? 2 A 

### I do. 3 Q 

### What is it? 4 A 

### This is a load manifest obtained 5 from SkyWestAirlines. It was sent via ACARS. 6 Q 

### Is it an accurate copy of the load 7 

### manifest that you obtained from SkyWest? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 10 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-30 WAS 11 

### MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 12 

### BY MR. HARPER: 13 Q 

### If you could turn now to Tab C-31. 14 There are multiple pages behind this tab. Do 15 you recognize these documents? 16 A 

### Yes, I do. 17 Q 

### What are they? 18 A 

### These are photographs that I took 19 of the COMAT materials that came off the 20 aircraft. 21 Q 

### Do they accurately reflect what 22 you saw that day?

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1 A Yes, they do. 2 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 3 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-31 WAS 4 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 5 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 6 time we would like to move what has been 7 marked as Complainant's 29, 30, and 31 for 8 identificationinto evidence as Complainant's 9 2 9, 30, and 3 1 . 10 MR. DWORKIN: No objections, Your 11 Honor. 12 BY MR. HARPER: 13 Q Did the cargo load report 14 correctly reflect the COMAT that was onboard 15 the flight? 16 A No, it did not. 17 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 29, 19 30, and 31 for identification are received 20 into evidence as Complainant's29, 30, and 31. 21 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 22 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT

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1 

### EXHIBITS C-29 THROUGH C-31 WERE 2 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 3 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 5 Q 

### Mr. Blauer, Exhibit C-30, is that 6 a dispatch release or a load manifest? 7 A 

### This is an ACARS load manifest. 8 Q 

### What is the difference in terms of 9 the form between the ACARS load manifest and 10 the dispatch release? 11 A 

### This report here is sent by the 12 flight crew as they enter the informationthat 13 they receive from the cargo load report into 14 the ACARS system and send it to the company. 15 Q 

### Now, with respect to these two 16 items of COMAT, one was a plastic tub and the 17 other one was a cable, how did you establish 18 the weights of these things? 19 A 

### The weights were obtained from 20 tags affixed to both items. 21 Q 

### So those two items should have 22 weighed 190 pounds if the weights on the tags

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### 1 were accurate. Correct? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### So basically, whoeverpreparedthe 4 

### CLR showing 160 pounds probably couldn't add 5 

### right. 6 A 

### I would have to say that, yes. 7 Q 

### Do you have any other explanation 8 

### for why the CLR would have had this incorrect 9 

### weight? 10 A 

### I do not. 11 

### MR. DWORKIN: No further 12 questions. Thank you. 13 

### MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 14 Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 17 with anybody prior to completion of the 18 hearing. You are free to go. 19 

### THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 20 Honor. 21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 22 suggest this would be a good time for break

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### 177

1 

### for lunch. But before we do, I would just 2 

### like to confirm that SkyWest doesn't 3 anticipate calling Michele Wallentine, Joe 4 Chavez, Mr. Benallo or Mr. Arron Perkins to 5 

### the stand. They are from out of town. So, if 6 they are not going to be called, I would like 7 

### to

-- 8 

### MR. DWORKIN: They are free to go. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we ought to 10 find out if anybody is going back to LA and 11 hold them here until the smoke goes away. 12 The Court doesn't have any need 13 

### for them. Mr. Harper, you are certainly 14 welcome to let them go. 15 

### Mr. Harper, at lunch, would you 16 look at C-16? It is a cargo load report and 17 I can't make out the date. It could be a 18 four, it could be a nine. So, just let me 19 know when we reconvene. 20 MR. HARPER: Certainly. As a 21 matter of fact, I have the originals here. 22 So, I can

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### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, just double 2 

### heck. What I am trying to do is make sure I 3 got the master list correct. 4 Okay, we are going to go off the 5 record. I have got about ten minutes of one. 6 So, let's go off the recorduntil around 1:00. 7 When everybody gets back, we will go back on 8 the record. 9 

### So again, I will instruct any 10 potential witnesses, you are not to discuss 11 your testimony with anybody prior to the 12 conclusion of the hearing. 13 We are off the record. 14 (Whereupon, at 11:52 a.m., a lunch 15 recess was taken.) 16 17 18 19 20 

### 21 22

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433179 1 A-F-T-E-R-N-0-0-N S-E-S-S-I-0-N 2 (1:11 p.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back on 4 the record. Mr. Harper, call your next 5 witness. 6 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. The 7 FAA calls Mr. Andrew Ayers. 8 Whereupon, 9 ANDREW JAMES AYERS 10 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 11 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 12 witness stand and was examined and testified 13 as follows: 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 15 State your name for the record and 16 spell your first and last name. 17 THE WITNESS: My name is Andrew 18 James Ayers, first name A-N-D-R-E-W, last name 19 A-Y-E-R-S. 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. HARPER: 22 Q Mr. Ayers, could you describe your

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433180 1 aviation background? 2 A Yes, I have been in aviation for 3 19 years, receivingmyprivatepilot's license 4 in 1995. I then got a job in commercial 5 aviation with Atlantic Southeast Airlines in 6 1998. I acted as a pilot command in the EMB7 120 and CL-65 aircraft for Atlantic Southeast 8 Airlines for approximately nine years. 9 Following that, I left Atlantic 10 Southeast Airlines to come to the Federal 11 AviationAdministration, where I have been for 12 six and a half years acting as principle 13 operations inspectorfor the last three years. 14 Q When you worked for Atlantic 15 Southeast Airlines, was it a subsidiary of 16 SkyWest Airlines, Incorporated? 17 A For a portion of that time it was, 18 yes. 19 Q Were you ever employed by SkyWest 20 Airlines directly? 21 A I was not. 22 Q At any point in time?

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1 A No. 2 Q Does the officer assigned to you 3 have responsibility for any particular 4 certificate holder? 5 A Yes, I am employed by the SkyWest 6 Certificate Management Office. Our 7 responsibility is oversight of the SkyWest 8 Airlines Operating Certificate. 9 Q I believe you mentioned your are 10 the principle operations inspector. 11 A That is correct. 12 Q What does the principle operations 13 inspector do? 14 A Principleoperations inspectorhas 15 the overall responsibility for all of the 16 authorizations and approvals for SkyWest's 17 operational needs. So, my job is to both 18 oversee the compliance, oversee the 19 authorizatims for their programs, and 20 schedule surveillance and follow-up. 21 Q Do you hold any airman 22 certificates?

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1 A 

### I do. I have an airline transport 2 pilot certificate with type ratings in the 3 EMB-120 and CL-65 series aircraft. 4 Q 

### Are those the type aircraft that 5 were flown in these cases? 6 A 

### They are, yes. 7 Q 

### Have you received any training in 8 the course of your duties of becoming an ASI? 9 A 

### I have. 10 Q 

### Could you describe that training? 11 A I 

### attended the basic initial 12 training for all aviation safety inspectors 13 when I became employed with the FAA for all 14 manner of programcompliance, various types of 15 training the ASI is responsible for and, 16 during the course of my time with the FAA, I 17 have receivedadditionalrecurrenttrainingon 18 various programs, as well as new programs. 19 Q 

### In the course of your training to 20 become an airline transport pilot, did you 21 ever receive any training in aircraft weight 22 and balance?

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### 1 A 

### I did, yes. 2 Q 

### Could you describe briefly what 3 that training was? 4 A 

### Yes, well, prior to become an 5 airline transport pilot, I received training 6 generally in weight and balance as part of my 7 

### private pilot training. Throughout my 8 training, especially with, as you mentioned, 9 

### Atlantic Southeast Airlines, we undergo 10 initial training in the aircraft or in the 11 operator 1

### s policies and procedures for weight 12 and balance compliance, as well as recurrent 13 training every six months testing every year, 14 retraining on the ground subjects. 15 Q 

### So you have not only received 16 generalized weight and balance training that 17 is applicable to any pilot flying any sort of 18 aircraftbut you receivedtraining specificto 19 the type aircraft that were at issue in this 20 case. 21 A 

### I have, yes. 22 Q 

### Are you familiar with SkyWest 1

### s

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### 1 operational procedures? 2 A I 

### am. 3 Q 

### How are you familiar with those 4 procedures? 5 

### A As the principle operations 6 

### inspector, it is my responsibility and 7 

### authority to grant approval for those 8 

### procedures. 9 Q 

### And specifically, are you familiar 10 with SkyWest's weight and balance program? 11 A 

### I am, yes. 12 Q 

### And how are you familiar with that 13 program? 14 A 

### I have both reviewed it in several 15 iterations and issued approval for it. 16 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, we offer 17 Mr. Andrew Ayers as an expert in the field of 18 aircraft weight and balance. 19 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 20 Honor. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness will 22 be received as an expert in the area.

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1 BY MR. HARPER: 2 Q Does the SkyWest weight and 3 balance program involve the use of any forms 4 to aid SkyWest personnel in calculating an 5 aircraft's weight and balance? 6 A Yes, it does. 7 Q What forms would those be? 8 A They use a form called a cargo 9 load report, which essentially a tally 10 worksheet for computing the loads or the 11 weight of cargo that is loaded on the 12 aircraft. 13 Q Could you describe for me one of 14 the terms found on the cargo load report that 15 we have seen today is a standardbag. What is 16 a standard bag? 17 A A standard bag is a term used for 18 an average that is essentially it is assigned 19 30 pounds. So a standard bag weighs 30 20 pounds. That is a given number. 21 Q Now, a standard bag, does it 22 always weigh exactly 30 pounds or sort of what

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### 1 is the range that a standard bag covers? 2 A 

### A standardbag is defined as a bag 3 that weighs from zero up to 50 pounds. 4 Q 

### And how about a heavy bag? What 5 range would a heavy bag cover? 6 A 

### A heavy bag would be over 50 up to 7 100 pounds. 8 Q 

### And for purposes of SkyWest weight 9 

### and balance program, what weight is assigned 10 to a heavy bag? 11 A 

### A 60-pound weight is assigned to a 12 heavy bag. 13 Q 

### How about a plane side loaded 14 valet baggage? How does SkyWestprogramtreat 15 that type of luggage? 16 A 

### Those are counted as 30 pounds. 17 Q 

### And again, what weight range do 18 they typically encompass? 19 A 

### The same, zero to 50 pounds. 20 Q 

### Are there other forms or documents 21 that are relevant to the SkyWest weight and 22 balance program?

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1 A 

### There are the actual load manifest 2 for the aircraft, which contains the total 3 weights for the flight is another one of the 4 documents that is part of their weight and 5 balance program. 6 Q 

### If you could turn in the binder in 7 

### front of you to Exhibit C-6. 8 A 

### Okay. 9 Q 

### Is this a load manifest or a 10 dispatch release? 11 A 

### This is a load manifest. 12 Q 

### If you could turn to C-9. Is this 13 a load manifest or a dispatch release? 14 A 

### This is also a load manifest. 15 Q 

### How about C-12? 16 A 

### This is also a load manifest. 17 Q 

### And finally, C-14. 18 A 

### That is also a load manifest. 19 Q 

### You have been following along 20 sittingat counsel table with all the evidence 21 that has been admitted so far today. Have any 22 of the documents you have seen been flight

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433188 1 releases? 2 A I have not seen a flight release 3 today. 4 Q Any dispatch releases? 5 A No. 6 Q Are you familiar with the FAA 7 Weight and Balance Handbook? 8 A I am. 9 Q What is the Weight and Balance 10 Handbook? 11 A The Weight and Balance Handbook is 12 sort of a general book. It contains both 13 backgroundknowledge, scientific information, 14 factual information about weight and balance, 15 as well as suggested policies and procedures 16 for complying with weight and balance when 17 operating aircraft. 18 Q Does it discuss some of the 19 potential hazards of operating with aircraft 20 that are overweight or out of center of 21 gravity? 22 A It does.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433189 1 Q What are some sample hazards that 2 might arise from operatingan aircraft that is 3 overweight? 4 A Well essentially, if the aircraft 5 is overweight, all of the performance numbers 6 that you have derived for that particular 7 flight are invalidated. You can have any 8 number of effects on the flight extended 9 takeoff role, reduce client gradient, reduce 10 climb rate, increase stall speed, increase 11 fuel burn, inability to maintain your cruise 12 altitude that you have planned. Aft CG can 13 cause things such as difficulty in pitch 14 control to the extent where you may find the 15 aircraft uncontrollable. 16 Q Are you familiar with any aircraft 17 accidents under Part 121 where weight and 18 balance was a casual factor? 19 A I am, yes. 20 Q Could you briefly describe that 21 accident? 22 MR. EMERSON: Objection;

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### 1 relevance. 2 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, it goes 3 to what an appropriate sanction would be. It 4 addresses the safety risk that is inherent in 5 operating an aircraft with an inaccurate 6 weight and balance. 7 

### MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor 8 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, there is 9 no evidence

-- 10 

### MR. HARPER: And it is offered to 11 show

-- 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Just one of you. 13 

### MR. HARPER: And it is offered to 14 show that these risks are not merely notional 15 that we are discussing. That in fact in the 16 real world, there can be real world effects. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't see how a 18 prior accident can affect the

-- can assist 19 the Court in helping. I am going to sustain 20 it at this point. 21 

### MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 22 like to make an offer of proof for the record.

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### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 2 

### BY MR. HARPER: 3 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, if you could testify, 4 

### it is not going to be admitted as evidence 5 

### here but for purposes of making the record 6 

### clear what you would have testified, had it 7 

### been admitted, if you could describe the 8 

### circumstances of the accident. 9 A 

### Essentially, the accident in 10 question involved an aircraft that was loaded 11 no in compliancewith the operator's approved 12 weight and balance program. Incorrect 13 information was provided to the flight crew 14 which allowed them or did not allow them, 15 rather, to accurately complete their load 16 manifest for their flight. That resulted in 17 them being unable to detect an aft CG, which 18 renderedthe aircraftuncontrollable. And the 19 aircraft in question stalled shortly after 20 takeoff and crashed, killing all persons 21 aboard. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court is not

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### 1 going to change its ruling. I don't see how 2 another accident has any probative value or 3 relevancy to this particular case. 4 

### MR. HARPER: Understood, Your 5 Honor. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So, the Court's 7 ruling remains the same. 8 BY MR. HARPER: 9 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, I 

### would like to 10 discuss, just to get started, Flight 4540 on 11 March 11, 2011 from Missoula to Salt Lake 12 City. 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: Which case, Jeff? 14 MR. HARPER: It is going to be 15 2012-0874. 16 BY MR. HARPER: 17 Q 

### If you could, turn to Tab C-21 in 18 the binder ln front of you. As you recall, 19 this document was admitted into evidence as 20 the crew's copy of the cargo load report for 21 Flight 4540 from Missoula to Salt Lake City on 22 March 3, 2011.

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### 1 If you could

-- do you happen to 2 have a calculator with you? 3 A 

### I have my phone with a calculator. 4 

### MR. HARPER: Is there any 5 

### objection if he uses his phone as a 6 

### calculator? 7 

### MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 8 

### BY MR. HARPER: 9 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, looking at this 10 exhibit, the CLR shows that there were 3 5 11 checked bags, two heavy bags, 12 plane side 12 valet bags, service items, and 350 pounds of 13 COMAT. 14 

### Since you are familiar with 15 SkyWest's weight and balance program, could 16 you calculatewhat the weight of the cargo was 17 for this flight based on the CLR? 18 A 

### Okay. 19 

### MR. DWORKIN: Objection, Your 20 Honor. Perhaps we should utilize Exhibit R21 21, which is the corrected CLR. 22 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I am also

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### 1 going to have him do the calculationwith R-21 2 as well. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It seems to me you 4 

### get chance, too, Mr. Dworkin. Objection is 5 overruled. 6 

### THE WITNESS: Okay. You want the 7 total number? 8 BY MR. HARPER: 9 Q 

### Yes. What was the

-- what do you 10 calculate? 11 A 

### I came up with 1820. 12 Q 

### Okay, 35 plane side

-- standard, 13 12 plane side for 47 times 30 pounds? 14 A Yes, that is 1410. 15 Q 

### And then two heavy checked bags at 16 60 pounds each, that is 120 pounds. 17 A Yes, that is 120' yes. 18 Q 

### And then add 350 for the COMAT. 19 

### A Oh, 1880. Sorry about that. I 20 missed the one. 21 Q 

### All right. Perhaps it proves the 22 point that SkyWest has been making that the

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### 1 numbers get confusing. 2 If you could turn the page to Tab 3 C-22. 4 A 

### Okay. 5 Q 

### And this has been admitted as the 6 

### load manifest for flight 4540. What is the 7 weight of the cargo that the flight was 8 operated using? 9 A 

### It also shows 1880. 10 Q 

### So the weight as shown on the 11 cargo load report is the same as the weight 12 shown on the load manifest. 13 A 

### The total weight is the same, yes. 14 Q 

### But nonetheless, from the evidence 15 you heard here today, the cargo load report 16 found at Exhibit C-21 is incorrectbecause the 17 COMAT is listed as 350 pounds instead of 100 18 pounds of COMAT and 250 pounds of ballast. 19 

### A That is correct. 20 MR. HARPER: Permission to 21 approach, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433196 1 MR. HARPER: I am showing the 2 witness Respondent's 21. 3 BY MR. HARPER: 4 Q Mr. Ayers you were here when 5 SkyWest Airlines introduced this exhibit as 6 being the station copy of the cargo load 7 report and, essentially, that it was the more 8 accurate one because it had some changes that 9 correctly reflected the COMAT and the ballast 10 specs. Correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Could you calculate, based on that 13 CLR the weight of the cargo that was onboard 14 the aircraft? 15 A Okay. I come up with 1850. 16 Q Is that the same or different from 17 the load manifest that was used to operate the 18 flight? 19 A That is 30 pounds less than what 20 the load manifest indicates. 21 Q So, you would say that the cargo 22 load report that SkyWest says is more accurate

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1 

### results in a cargo weight that is at odds with 2 the actual load manifest that was used to 3 operate the flight? 4 A 

### Yes, they are conflicting. 5 Q 

### In a sense, the correct load 6 

### manifest, the station manager's copy is more 7 

### wrong than the copy that was given to the air 8 

### crew. 9 A 

### They are both wrong but this one 10 

### is more wrong in that the weight is actually 11 

### incorrect. 12 Q Mr. 

### Ayers, in the course of 13 

### preparing for your testimony today, did you 14 

### have an opportunity to review the 15 investigative reports in these cases? 16 A 

### I did, yes. 17 Q 

### And have you, in the course of 18 that review, did you calculatethe weights for 19 each of the flights based on what the CLR 20 showed and compare to what the load manifest 21 for that flight showed? 22 A 

### I did review that, yes, with the

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### 1 calculations. 2 Q 

### So, I would like to turn your 3 attention now, and I apologize I don't have 4 

### the case numbers in the questions. So, it 5 might take a little while if you need that 6 information. 7 But if you could look at Flight 8 5840 on June 2nd from Houston to Charlotte, 9 that is going to be Case 2012-0868. When you 10 reviewed that case, did the weight as 11 calculated using the data on the CLR line up 12 with the weight that was listed on the load 13 manifest for that flight? 14 A It 

### did not. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: 5840 is Exhibits 1 16 and 2. Is that what you are looking for? 17 

### MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 18 Thank you. 19 BY MR. HARPER: 20 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 1160 on May 21 5th from Houston to Colorado Springs, this 22 

### will be case FAA-2012-0869. Did the cargo

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433199 1 weight as calculatedusing the data on the CLR 2 match the cargo weight listed on the load 3 manifest? 4 A It did not. 5 Q Are you sure about that? 6 A Tell me the date again of the 7 1160? There was two 1160s. 8 Q 1160 on May 5, 2011. And hang on 9 a second. I will give you the exhibit numbers 10 if you want to turn and look at them. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: What is the flight 12 number again? 13 MR. HARPER: 1160. So, this is 14 going to be Exhibits 3 and 4. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: I am going to double 17 check my math here. 18 MR. DWORKIN: We will have Mr. 19 Ayers' phone received in evidence. 20 THE WITNESS: It does match on the 21 May 5th case. 22 BY MR. HARPER:

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### 1 Q 

### Thank you. Now, you have heard 2 testimony today that the actual cargo onboard 3 the aircraftwasn't correctlyreflectedin the 4 cargo load report. Would that mean then that 5 the load manifest the performance data 6 calculated using the cargo weight entered in 7 the load manifest would have been incorrect? 8 A 

### Can you repeat the first part of 9 the question one more time, please? 10 Q 

### You heard testimony today that the 11 cargo load report did not correctly reflect 12 what was onboard the aircraft. 13 A 

### Correct. 14 Q 

### From that, does it then mean that 15 since the loadmanifestmatches the cargo load 16 report that the load manifest is also 17 incorrect? 18 A 

### Yes. If the cargo load report 19 does not match what was on the aircraft then 20 the load manifest is also incorrect. 21 Q 

### And if the load manifest was 22 incorrect, then the performance data that was

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### 1 calculatedfor the flight would also have been 2 incorrect. 3 A 

### That is correct. 4 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 4464 on 5 March 8, 2011 from Los Angeles to Las Vegas 6 that we are now discussing in Case 2012-0872. 7 And that is going to be Exhibits 5 and 6. 8 

### Did the weight of the cargo 9 calculated using the CLR, is that the same 10 weight as was on the load manifest for that 11 flight? 12 A 

### Yes, it is. 13 Q 

### And again, the testimony today, 14 

### the cargo load report was incorrect. From 15 that fact, can you infer that the load 16 manifest was also incorrect? 17 A 

### Yes, that is correct. 18 Q 

### And if the load manifest was 19 

### incorrect, would that mean that the 20 performance data used for the flight was also 21 incorrect? 22 A 

### Yes, that would be correct.

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1 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 6756 from 2 Chicago 0 

### 'Hare to Colorado Springs, also Case 3 

### Number 2012-0872. And this is going to be 4 Exhibits C-8 and C-9. 5 Does the weight listed on the load 6 manifestmatchthe weight calculatedusing the 7 cargo load report in evidence as C-8? 8 A 

### Yes, it does match. 9 Q 

### And again, from that can we infer 10 that the load manifest is incorrect? 11 A 

### Yes, we can. 12 Q 

### And that the performance data for 13 the flight was also incorrect? 14 A 

### That is correct. 15 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 6991 on 16 March 9, 2011 from Chicago to Colorado 17 Springs, that would be Exhibit C-11 and C-12. 18 Did the weight listed on the load 19 manifestmatchthe weight calculatedusing the 20 CLR data that is in evidence as C-11? 21 A 

### Yes, it matches. 22 Q 

### And having heard testimony today

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### 1 that the CLR was inaccurateand didn't reflect 2 the actual aircraft loading, can you then 3 infer the load manifest was incorrect? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### And that therefore, the 6 performance data used in the conduct of the 7 flight was incorrect? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 6960 on 10 March 14, 2011 from Denver to Sioux Falls, 11 that would be Exhibit 13 and 14. 12 Did the weight listed on the load 13 manifest for this flight, does it match the 14 weight calculatedbased on the data contained 15 in the cargo load report, Exhibit C-13? 16 A 

### Yes, it does. 17 Q 

### And again, we have heard testimony 18 that the cargo load report was incorrect. Can 19 we then infer that the load manifest was 20 incorrect? 21 A 

### That is correct. 22 Q 

### And 1

### ikewise, because the load

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### 1 manifest was incorrect, performance data used 2 to conduct the flight was incorrect. 3 A 

### That is correct. 4 Q 

### If you could now discuss Flight 5 6756 on April 7, 2011 from Chicago to Colorado 6 Springs. We are now looking at Exhibit C-16 7 and C-17. Did the weight listed on the load 8 manifest correlate with the weight calculated 9 using the information contained in the cargo 10 load report, Exhibit C-16? 11 A 

### Yes, it is the same. 12 Q 

### And again, having heard testimony 13 today that the cargo load report was 14 inaccurate, the load manifest was inaccurate? 15 A 

### Correct. 16 Q 

### And ln that case, would the 17 performance data used to operate the aircraft 18 have been inaccurate? 19 A 

### It would be, yes. 20 Q 

### Next is Flight 4553 on March 3rd 21 from San Diego to Salt Lake City, Exhibits C22 18 and C-19.

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### 205 1 Did the weight listed on the load 2 manifest reflect the weight calculated using 3 the cargo load report data? 4 A 

### Yes, it is the same. 5 Q 

### And again, does that mean the load 6 manifest was incorrect? 7 

### A Yes, it does. 8 Q 

### And the performance data? 9 

### A Yes, it was. 10 Q 

### The performance was incorrect? 11 

### A Yes, it was. 12 Q 

### Next Flight 4445 on March 3rd from 13 

### Phoenix to Salt Lake City. So, it would be 14 Exhibits 24 and 25. 15 Did the load manifest and the 16 weight as calculated using the cargo load 17 report reflect each other? 18 A 

### Yes, they are the same. 19 Q 

### Does that mean the load manifest 20 was inaccurate? 21 A 

### Yes, it does. 22 Q 

### And the performance data was

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### 1 inaccurate. 2 A 

### Yes, that is correct. 3 Q 

### Turning now to Flight 4781 on June 4 

### 15th from Salt Lake City to Reno. Did the 5 weight on the loadmanifest reflect the weight 6 as calculated using Exhibit C-29, the cargo 7 load report for the flight? 8 A 

### Yes, they match. 9 Q 

### And again, having heard testimony 10 that the cargo load report was inaccurate, was 11 the load manifest inaccurate? 12 A 

### Yes, it was. 13 Q 

### Would the performance data have 14 been inaccurate? 15 A 

### Yes, it would have been. 16 Q 

### Next is Flight 1160 on July 14, 17 2011 from Houston to Colorado Springs. This 18 is going to be Exhibits C-32 and C-33. 19 Did the weight of cargo listed on 20 the load manifest correlate with the cargo 21 weight calculatedusing the cargo loadreport, 22 Exhibit C-32?

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1 A 

### It does not appear to from my 2 copy. 3 Q 

### Okay. And Flight 5449 on November 4 16, 2011 from Denver to Rock Springs. 5 

### Does the weight reflected on the 6 load manifest reflect the cargo weight 7 calculated using Exhibit C-34? 8 A 

### Yes, those are the same. 9 Q 

### And having heard the testimony 10 today that the cargo load report was 11 inaccurate, if the cargo load report was 12 inaccurate, would the load manifest have been 13 inaccurate? 14 A 

### Yes, it would have been. 15 Q 

### And if the load manifest was 16 inaccurate, would theperformancedata used to 17 dispatch the flight have been inaccurate? 18 A 

### Yes, it would have been. 19 Q 

### Now in a couple of these cases 20 from the evidence, for example, Exhibit C-21, 21 the load manifest weight matched the cargo 22 load report and it was the actual weight of

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234·4433208 1 the aircraft as calculated using approved 2 procedures. Is there a reason why this is 3 still a violation? 4 A Yes. Part of the approved program 5 describes procedures for completion of the 6 CLR. And failure to follow those procedures 7 is still a violation, whether or not the 8 number is correct is really not relevant to 9 whether those procedures were actually 10 followed. 11 Q So, if I could draw an analogy and 12 put it another way, it is not enough to get 13 the right answer. You have to show your work 14 to get the answer and that work also has to be 15 correct. 16 A Correct. 17 Q Based on your review of the case 18 files, the testimony you have heard today and 19 your training as a pilot who is type rated in 20 each of the aircraft types at issue here 21 today, do you believe there was any actual 22 impact on safetyposedby these discrepancies?

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### 1 A 

### I do. 2 Q 

### What is that safety impact? 3 A 

### Well, the impact is the unknown. 4 We are looking at all of these after the fact. 5 During the time of the operation of the 6 flight, none of this was known and the actual 7 discrepancyreally could not be accounted for 8 ln the performance of the airplane. 9 Q 

### So, it wouldn't surprise you if it 10 turned out that all of the aircraft, as it 11 happened, turned out to be operated within 12 their weight and balance envelope? 13 A 

### It wouldn't surprise me, no. I 

### 14 wouldn't. 15 Q 

### But your concern is that we know 16 that now but SkyWest couldn't have known that 17 then because of the errors. 18 A 

### Correct. 19 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions. 20 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 22 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, you just testified you

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### 1 have to show the work to get the answer. Is 2 that correct? 3 A 

### That is correct. 4 Q 

### Okay. So, how come we don't have 5 

### the back sides of the CLRs to show how the 6 

### loading agents computed and counted all these 7 

### pieces? 8 A 

### The work is done on the front side 9 

### of the worksheet where the math is talliedup. 10 Q 

### Yes, but the back side of the CLR 11 is basically the worksheet to assist the 12 loading agents in counting. Correct? 13 A 

### It is an assistance, yes. 14 Q 

### And they tick off little boxes and 15 

### make little marks. 16 A 

### Correct. 17 Q 

### And so if the process is as 18 

### important as the answer, wouldn't it have been 19 

### beneficial, in connection with the 20 investigationof these cases, to have provided 21 the back sides of the station copies of the 22 CLRs so we could have seen what was going

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### 1 through the loading agents' minds? 2 A 

### It would have been beneficial. 3 Q 

### But we don't have it, do we? 4 A 

### We don't. 5 Q 

### Because we didn't ask for it. 6 And your testimony is predicated 7 upon the assumption that the inspectors, when 8 they were counting all of this offloaded 9 baggage, they in fact counted correctly. 10 A 

### That is correct. 11 Q 

### Okay. And sometimes counting 12 correctly can be a challenge. 13 A 

### It can. 14 Q 

### Whether it is marbles, poker 15 

### chips, money, bags. It is normal human 16 behavior to miscount or forget where you were. 17 A 

### Sure. 18 Q 

### Have you ever miscounted 19 something? 20 A 

### I have. 21 Q 

### This is really a human factors 22 

### issue. Correct?

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1 A 

### I would disagree. 2 Q 

### Were you the principle operations 3 inspector for SkyWest when these cases arose 4 

### in 2011? 5 A 

### A portion of them. 6 Q 

### Now, with respect to Exhibit R-21, 7 which is the corrected CLR, this was the 8 station copy. Is that correct? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Okay. And it appears that this 11 CLR, that R-21 actually came after C-21. It 12 looks like somebody at the station had 13 

### corrected the CLR. Is that correct? 14 A It 

### certainly looks like an 15 entirely different document. 16 Q 

### Well, let's go back to C-21 and, 17 if you could, put R-21 and C-21 side-by-side. 18 When there is a change to the aircraft load, 19 the originating station, the station that 20 loads the aircraft is supposed to correct the 21 CLR. Is that correct? 22 A 

### Correct.

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1 Q 

### Okay. So, you say this looks like 2 a completely different document but how are 3 they completely different documents? 4 A 

### Well, perhaps I shouldn't have 5 implied that they were actually separate 6 documents. But the fact that the numbers for 7 

### the COMAT and ballast are not struck out and 8 revised but entirely erased and changed makes 9 

### it appear to be different in that column. 10 Q 

### Okay. But the 35 under standard 11 checked bags, that appears to be the same, 12 doesn't it? 13 A 

### It does. 14 Q 

### And the heavy checked bags below 15 that seems to be the same. 16 A 

### It does. 17 Q 

### And then you have got, it looks 18 like there may have been a change on the plane 19 

### side valet bags on C-21. It looks like 20 somebody wrote an 11 and then they put in a 21 two. And then on R-21, it looks like they 22 made that 12 and 11 again.

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1 A It does. 2 Q And the fact of the matter is you 3 have only, with respect to that particular 4 case involving Flight 4540, you haven't 5 alleged any miscounts of checked bags. It 6 appears the FAA's sole gripe was COMAT versus 7 ballast. Is that correct? 8 A I believe that is what counsel 9 proposed, yes. 10 Q As the POI, were you the one who 11 assigned these inspectors the tasks to go out 12 there and look at baggage being offloaded? 13 A I did. 14 Q Did you because of the 15 frailties in humans' ability to accurately 16 count, did you suggest to the inspectors that 17 they not only count the bags but that they 18 actuallyphotograph the quantity of bags that 19 they saw offloaded to document the difference 20 between what was in the CLR and what they saw? 21 A You mean photograph them once they 22 have been taken off the airplane?

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### 1 Q 

### As they have been taken off, yes. 2 A 

### No, because the operational tempo 3 typicallydoesn't allow for all those bags to 4 

### be in the same place at one time, once they 5 

### come off of the belt loader. 6 Q I 

### mean the ramp is a pretty fast 7 

### acting place. Correct? 8 A It 

### is. 9 Q 

### And people are out there on the 10 

### ramp. They are loading airplanes. I mean, 11 these were not intentional. Correct? 12 A 

### I don't know that. 13 Q 

### Okay. I mean there is no evidence 14 of any intention to purposely understate or 15 

### overstate loads of aircraft. These rampers 16 are running around. They are trying to turn 17 

### flights. They are trying to load baggage, 18 offload baggage, get the airplanes turned 19 

### around. They are working pretty fast. 20 Correct? 21 A 

### They are working fast. 22 Q 

### And the ramp is a pretty hostile

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### 1 environment, is it not? 2 A It 

### is. 3 Q 

### It can be cold. It can be dark. 4 

### It can be hot. It can be blustery. It is 5 

### noisy. It is smelly. Right? 6 A 

### All those things. 7 Q 

### Not the best place to work. 8 Agreed? 9 A 

### I would agree. 10 Q 

### Does SkyWest have an SMS? 11 A 

### They do. 12 Q 

### Okay. And what is an SMS? 13 A 

### An SMS is essentially a series of 14 tools and programs that allow them to 15 practicallyidentifya risk and mitigate those 16 risks that they identify and have processes 17 and procedures in place to identify how they 18 do that, when they do that, and what the 19 outcomes are. 20 Q 

### And the risks under SMS are 21 assigned different levels, dependir.g upon 22 severity. Correct?

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433217

1 A 

### Correct. 2 Q 

### So, for instance, Category I would 3 

### really not be a safety-related issue. 4 A I 

### would have to reference 5 

### SkyWest's safety matrix to make that 6 

### determination. 7 Q 

### Okay. Well, didn't you have a 8 

### role ln the approval of the SMS? 9 A I 

### did. 10 Q 

### Okay. So, what would Category I 11 

### be, generally? 12 A I 

### would agree with what your 13 

### characterization of Category I 

### was. 14 Q 

### Not really safety-related. 15 A 

### Generally, yes. 16 Q 

### Okay. Category III 

### and IV, 

### that 17 

### is a lot more serious. Right? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### So, SkyWest didn't have an SMS at 20 this time in 2011, did they? 21 A 

### They did not have the SMS they 22 have now, no.

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1 Q 

### It was a work in process but the 2 SMS that they have now was not around in 2011 3 when these cases arose. 4 A 

### Correct. 5 Q 

### Okay. Under the SMS that SkyWest 6 

### has now, would these cases really fall within 7 

### Category I? 8 A 

### I can't say that because I am not 9 

### responsiblefor assessingthe riskbut I would 10 hope they would look at the actual risk not 11 

### the specific case. 12 Q 

### Okay. Well, the risk associated 13 

### with these cases, wouldn't this be more of a 14 

### Category I? 15 A 

### It depends on what you 16 characterize the risk as. 17 Q 

### Did you ever mention to anybody 18 

### with respect to these eight cases, the 14 

### 19 flights, that you and the CMO were essentially 20 tired of them and wanted to get on to more 21 important things? 22 A 

### I'm sure that I never said I was

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### 1 tired of them and wanted to move on to more 2 important things. 3 Q 

### You didn't say that? 4 A 

### I did not. 5 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay. I have no 6 further questions. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper. Just 8 for the record, what does SMS stand for? 9 

### MR. DWORKIN: Safety Management 10 System. 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. HARPER: 13 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, what does SMS stand 14 for? 15 A 

### Answer complete. 16 Q 

### Mr. Ayers, on cross-examination 17 there was some discussion of what happens if 18 there is last minute loading of the aircraft. 19 And the fact that the station copy of the 20 cargo load report has to be updated to reflect 21 the last-minute additions. 22 Are there any other documents that

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1 

### have to reflect last-minute additions? 2 A 

### Well, both copies of the cargo 3 load report should be updated and the load 4 

### manifest, ultimately, is the one that needs to 5 

### be updated to reflect those changes. 6 Q 

### So at the end of the day, if the 7 

### load manifest is inaccurate, the process 8 

### wasn't followed. 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### As part of SkyWest's weight and 11 

### balance procedure, is COMAT required to be 12 

### marked on the CLR as COMAT and is ballast 13 

### required to be marked on the CLR as ballast? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### SkyWest's program doesn't allow 16 you to conflatethe two, move some weight from 17 one category to the other? 18 A No. 19 Q 

### And again, as part of SkyWest's 20 weight and balance program, when there is a 21 

### live animal onboard the aircraft, does the 22 program require that the fact that there is a

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1 live animal in the cargo bin be marked on the 2 cargo load report? 3 A It does require that, yes. 4 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 7 Q Let's talk about live animals for 8 a second. A service animal, which presumably 9 is alive 10 MR. HARPER: Outside the scope, 11 Your Honor. Objection. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 13 MR. DWORKIN: The question was 14 about live animals. We are getting into live 15 animals. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: But on redirect 17 was there any query as to animals? 18 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, my 19 question on redirect was whether not live 20 animals that are loaded in the cargo bin have 21 to be marked on the cargo load report. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. I will

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1 

### allow limited inquiry. 2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 3 Q 

### Live animals, as baggage, they are 4 assigned a weight of 30 pounds or 60 pounds. 5 

### Is that correct? 6 A 

### Correct. 7 Q 

### That would include the container. 8 A 

### Yes, checked baggage. That is 9 

### correct. 10 Q 

### Okay. But animals can also be 11 

### shipped as freight. 12 A 

### Correct. 13 Q 

### In which case, they are assigned a 14 

### different weight. 15 A 

### Correct. 16 Q 

### Whereas, if they are carried 17 

### onboard the cabin, they are assigned no 18 

### weight. 19 A 

### Right. 20 

### MR. HARPER: Objection, Your 21 

### Honor. This is outside the scope. 22 MR. DWORKIN: No further

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433223 

### 1 questions. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further 3 questions, Mr. Harper? 4 

### MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 6 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 7 prior to conclusionof the hearing. Since you 8 are the Agency expert, you can return to the 9 table or you can be excused. It is up to Mr. 10 Harper. You are excused. 11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 12 rests. 13 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let's take 14 

### a -- I have got five minutes to two. Let's 15 take a ten-minute break so Mr. Todd can make 16 

### sure his computer still works. And then we 17 will go back on the record. 18 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 19 went off the record at 1:55 p.m. 20 and went back on the r.·ecord at 21 2:10p.m.) 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin. Mr.

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### 1 Emerson. 2 

### MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we are 3 going to start with the video deposition of 4 Carl Salamone. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: I 've handed them 6 

### out. 7 

### MR. DWORKIN: You've handed them 8 

### out, okay. The actual written transcript of 9 the Salamone depositionis Exhibit R-3-1. And 10 Mr. Salamonehas also prepareda report, which 11 is R-3-2. And we also have the video disk, 12 which I guess for purposes of clarity in the 13 record should be R-3-3. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Do you have 15 the deposition on digital or not? 16 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 18 

### MR. EMERSON: I can send you back 19 with a flash drive to plug ln your computer. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay or email it. 21 MR

. EMERSON: Email it to Mr. 22 Court Reporter?

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Troy, what are you 2 better off with? Are you better off with a 3 digital or written? 4 

### COURT REPORTER: We would use it 5 for spellings. So, probably a digital, where 6 we can get all the terms. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. If you can 8 do it, just get a copy and you can email it to 9 

### me or send it to him. Whatever. 10 If you email it to me, that's fine 11 but do me a favor and send it to me in PDF and 12 Word form. 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: So, R-1-1 would be 14 the transcript. R-2

-- sorry. R-3-1 will be 15 the transcript. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You mean R-3-1. 17 

### MR. Dlii'ORKIN: R-3-1 is the 18 transcript. R-3-2 is the report and

-- 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That is the 20 SkyWest ballast. 21 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.

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1 

### MR. DWORKIN: And R-3-3 would be 2 the actual video disk. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: That's this? 4 

### MR. DWORKIN: Yes. And Mr. 5 

### Emerson is going to work his technological 6 

### wonders and play the video depo for us. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Should Mr. Harper 8 

### and I leave and come back later when it is 9 

### working correctly? 10 

### MR. EMERSON: It's working. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Famous last words. 12 

### Troy, do you have a copy to go 13 

### along? 14 

### MR. EMERSON: Sir, is that enough 15 

### illumination for you to do your work? 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 17 

### MR. EMERSON: This is Disk 1 

### of 18 

### the deposition of Carl Salamone. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, 20 preliminarily, do you have any objection? I 21 

### assume you were the person at the deposition? 22 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor.

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1 

### Actually, I was present by telephone at the 2 deposition. Mr. Emerson has coordinatedwith 3 me ahead of time whether I had any objection 4 

### to the video, the editing that has been done 5 

### to the video and the transcript. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 7 

### (Whereupon, a video depositionwas 8 

### played.) 9 

### THE VIDEOGRAPHER: May 6, 

### 2014. 10 We are on the record at 8:00 a.m. Today's 11 

### testimony is regarding SkyWest Airlines, 12 Incorporated. Present in the room is Robert 13 

### Stanley. My name is Joel Hilkert, the 14 videographer. 15 

### Will all present please state 16 

### their appearances for the record and then the 17 

### witness can be sworn. 18 MR. EMERSON: Todd Emerson, 19 

### Counsel for SkyWest Airlines. 20 MR. HARPER: Jeffrey Harper, 21 Counsel for the Federal Aviation 22 Administration.

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1 

### MR. · RICHARDS : Lynn Richards, 2 Flight Standards Regional Office. 3 

### MR. SALAMONE: Carl Salamone, 4 pilot for SkyWest Airlines. 5 

### (Whereupon, Mr. Salamone was 6 

### sworn.) 7 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 9 Q 

### Good morning, Mr. Salamone. 10 A 

### Good morning. 11 Q 

### Would you please state your name 12 

### for the record and give us your business 13 

### address? 14 A 

### My name is Carl Salamone. My 15 business address is 444 South River Road, 16 Saint George, Utah 84790. 17 Q 

### Mr. Salamone, you are about to 18 give testimony in a proceeding that is as if 19 you were ln a courtroom today. You have been 20 placed under oath and you are required by law 21 

### to tell the truth. I want to proceed as if 22 you were in that setting and with it being

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### 1 recordedand your testimonywill be played for 2 a judge at a later date. 3 

### Do you understand? 4 A 

### Yes, sir, I 

### understand. 5 

### MR. EMERSON: All right. Jeff, is 6 

### there any -- are there any exhortations you 7 

### would like to give the witness before we 8 

### begin? 9 

### MR. HARPER: No. 10 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 11 Q 

### Mr. Salamone, how are you 12 employed? 13 A 

### I am employed as a pilot for 14 SkyWest Airlines and also a member of a 15 special projects group. 16 Q 

### How long have you been employedby 17 SkyWest? 18 A 

### For just over seven years. 19 Q 

### What was your first position when 20 you started at SkyWest? 21 A 

### My first positionwith SkyWest was 22 a first officer on Canadair Regional Jets.

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1 Q How long did you serve as a first 2 officer? 3 A Until my current

-- I am currently 4 still serving as a first officer. 5 Q And when did you move into special 6 projects? 7 A Approximately five years ago I 8 moved into special projects and I fly as well 9 as doing special projects. So, it is a bit of 10 a dual duty. 11 Q What are some of those projects 12 that you are involved in? 13 A Well, this has been one of them, 14 analysis of weight and balance. I also have 15 been involved in fuel strategies and fuel 16 performance, been involved in external weight 17 and balance inspections from the FAA to IOSA 18 and IATA and the Department of Defense as 19 well. 20 Q Do you hold any FAA certificates? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q What do you hold?

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1 A 

### I hold an airline transport pilot 2 

### certificate for the CL-65 type aircraft. I 

### 3 also hold a flight instructor's certificate 4 and an advanced ground instructor and an 5 instrument ground instructor certificate. 6 Q 

### Are all of those certificates 7 current? 8 A 

### Yes, sir. 9 Q 

### Are you rated in the 200? 10 A 

### Yes, sir. 11 Q 

### In the 700? 12 A 

### Yes, sir. 13 Q 

### Are you also rated in the 900? 14 A 

### Yes, sir. 15 Q 

### Have you operated all three of 16 those aircraft? 17 A 

### Yes, I have. 18 Q 

### How many total flight hours have 19 you logged? 20 A 

### Approximately 4200 total hours. 21 Q 

### And how many in the regional jet? 22 A 

### Approximately3200 in the Canadair

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1 Regional Jets. 2 Q Do you have any formal education? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q Beyond high school? 5 A Yes, I do. I have a bachelor of 6 science degree in electrical engineering from 7 the University of Illinois and a bachelor of 8 science degree in aviationhuman factors, also 9 from the University of Illinois. 10 Q What does that mean, a degree in 11 aviation human factors? 12 A Aviation human factors is the 13 study of human factors principles in research 14 and psychologyas it will relate specifically 15 to aviation in the human elements of aviation 16 safety. 17 Q The weight and balance system that 18 you studied, would that involvehuman factors? 19 A Yes, it would. 20 Q Have you, in the course of 21 operatingthese regionaljets, had occasionto 22 calculate aircraft weight and CG balance?

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### 1 A 

### Yes, I have. 2 Q 

### About how many times? 3 A 

### I'm sorry. Could you repeat the 4 question again with respect to this analysis 5 only? 6 Q 

### Just in operating aircraft, about 7 how many? Could you estimate? 8 A Well, I would estimate that I have 9 flown about 3,000 flights but that is an 10 

### estimate, an approximation. So, each flight 11 recelves a weight and balance calculation 12 prior to that flight. 13 Q 

### You would be engaged in that 14 calculation each time? 15 A 

### Correct. 16 Q 

### So, approximately 3,000 times. 17 A 

### Correct. 18 Q 

### Are you trained by SkyWest on how 19 to calculate weight and balance 20 A 

### Yes, sir, I am. 21 Q 

### Also, it is helpful for me to 22 finish a question before you answer. It will

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### 1 be clearer for the record. 2 A 

### My apologies. 3 Q 

### I know I'm a little long-winded. 4 So, wait for me to finish. 5 

### So, you were trainedby SkyWest in 6 

### how to calculate

-- 7 A 

### Yes, sir, I was. 8 Q



### -- weight and balance? 9 

### That also happened in your 10 university training or your flight school 11 training? 12 A 

### In flight school training, you are 13 trained to compute weight and balance for all 14 

### their types of aircraft. Training for the 15 Canadair jets, specifically, was provided by 16 SkyWest Airlines, too. 17 Q 

### And then you have also performed 18 

### calculations for special projects. Is that 19 right? 20 A 

### What type of calculations? 21 Q 

### Weight and balance calculations. 22 A 

### Yes, that is correct.

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1 

### MR. EMERSON: SkyWest offers Mr. 2 Salamone as an expert in the field of aircraft 3 weight and balance and center of gravity 4 

### calculations, specifically pertaining to 5 

### Canadair Regional Jet Series 200, 700, 

### and 6 900. 7 

### MR. HARPER: I don't have any 8 

### objectionto himbeing offered as an expert in 9 

### the field of calculation of aircraft weight 10 

### and balance and the effects of that weight and 11 

### balance on the aircraft performance. 12 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 13 

### (Whereupon, the video was paused.) 14 

### MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, SkyWest 15 

### offers Mr. Salamone as an expert witness. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Hearing no 17 objection, the Court will accept him as an 18 expert in the field stated. 19 (Whereupon, the video deposition 20 resumed.) 21 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 22 Q 

### Mr. Salamone, you have a document

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1 

### in front of you. Can you identify that 2 document? 3 A 

### Yes, I can. This is a weight and 4 balance analysis covering 14 flights and it is 5 

### a recreation of those flights, based on the 6 

### data available to me on the weight and balance 7 

### as calculatedby the crew and also the alleged 8 

### weight and balance as it would have been 9 

### observed by an inspector. 10 Q 

### When did you prepare this report? 11 A 

### This report is dated April 20, 12 2014. 13 Q 

### This has been marked as 14 Respondent's Exhibit 1 and a copy will be 15 provided to the Court. And opposing counsel 16 has a copy to follow along with us. 17 Would you turn to page 2 of this 18 report? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### Why did you prepare this report, 21 Mr. Salamone? 22 A 

### I prepared this report at the

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1 

### request of Flight Operations Management in 2 response an initial investigation received 3 from the FAA for the flights in question. 4 Q 

### And you said there were 14 5 

### flights. 6 

### A Correct. 7 Q 

### What factors did you take into 8 

### account as you analyzedthe weight and balance 9 

### of those flights? 10 A 

### In the analysis of these flights, 11 

### I took all information that was available to 12 

### me, the cargo load reports, the load 13 manifests, electronic, if available, the 14 

### inspector's statement from the FAA, as far as 15 the allegedweight or items that may have been 16 

### present. And also then, the manufacturer 17 documentationfor the Canadair series jets to 18 determine performance and the weight and 19 balance in that respect. 20 Q 

### How about runway lengths? Did you 21 

### take that into account? 22 A 

### Yes, sir.

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1 Q 

### Air temperature? 2 A 

### Yes, sir. 3 Q 

### Fuel, fuel weights? 4 A 

### Yes, sir. 5 Q 

### Okay. Why is it

-- in your report 6 you have three principle factors that you 7 analyzed: aircraftweight, center of gravity, 8 then runway performance, climb performance, 9 and maximum operating altitude. 10 Can you define aircraft takeoff 11 

### weight? Can you explain to the Court what 12 that means? 13 A 

### Yes, the aircraft takeoff weight 14 is the gross weight of the aircraft in the 15 takeoff configuration, as it would begin the 16 takeoff segment of the flight. 17 

### So, essentially, the full weight 18 of the airplane immediatelyprior to beginning 19 takeoff. 20 Q 

### And that would include the 21 passenger weight? 22 A 

### Yes.

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1 Q 

### Cargo? 2 

### A Yes. 3 Q 

### Luggage? 4 

### A Yes. 5 Q 

### Ballast? 6 

### A Yes. 7 Q 

### The fuel weight? 8 

### A Yes. 9 Q 

### And then the actual weight of the 10 aircraft itself? 11 A 

### Yes. 12 Q 

### The wheels 13 A 

### Correct. 14 Q



### -- the engines, the hull, all of 15 it? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### Okay. And how about aircraft 18 

### takeoff center of gravity? What does that 19 entail? 20 A 

### Aircraft takeoff center of gravity 21 is the location of the center of gravity at a 22 point on the airplane and it is calculated to

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1 ensure that the plane remains in balance for 2 the manufacturer's specifications throughout 3 that flight. 4 Q And what is center of gravity? 5 What does that mean? 6 A Center of gravity is the single 7 point, it is a mathematical point. 

### It is a 8 single point like a teeter-totter, where that 9 airplanewouldbalanceon one particularpoint 10 where the weight is mathematically seen on 11 that location on the airplane. 12 Q Why is it important to know the 13 center of gravity on the aircraft? 14 A Well, it is important for 15 stabilityreasons, for control reasons, and it 16 is really just a major part of the physics of 17 flight, to ensure that the plane will perform 18 as it was designed to. 19 Q And then the other factors are 20 runwayperformance, flight climb performance, 21 and maximum operatingaltitude. What do those 22 factors mean?

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1 A Well, essentially what those 2 factors mean is that the airplane won't be too 3 heavy to meet its performancerequirementsand 4 performance planning. So, an airplane is 5 operatedat a weight that will ensure that the 6 runway is adequate, that the climbing 7 performancewill be adequate, and that it will 8 be able to obtain its operating altitude for 9 all phases of flight and complete that flight 10 as planned. 11 Q Mr. Salamone, you performed an 12 aircraft takeoff weight analysis for the 14 13 flights in question in these cases in your 14 report. In

-- under the weights that the 15 crew had recorded and believed that they were 16 operating under, in any of those 14 flights, 17 did the aircraft takeoff weight exceed the 18 maximums? 19 A No, they did not. 20 Q Were they unsafe in any way? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Okay, but how about as observedby

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433242 1 the FAA inspector, adding additional weight 2 for bags and subtracting weight for bags, or 3 the ballast or cargo that may not have been 4 accounted for by the crew? Adding those and 5 subtracting those, did you find that the 6 aircraft weight exceeded any tolerances? 7 A I did not. 8 Q Or was unsafe in any way? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q How about for an aircraft takeoff 11 center of gravity? Again, two parts, as 12 calculated by the crew on those 14 flights, 13 did you find any of those 14 flights where the 14 center of gravity left the manufacturer's 15 suggested limits? 16 A I did not. 17 Q How about as perceived by the FAA 18 inspector? 19 A I did not. 20 Q Then the last factor for aircraft 21 runway performance and climb performance, and 22 maximum operating altitude. In your

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### 1 calculations, were the crews' calculations 2 

### accurate as pertainingto the cargo and weight 3 

### that they believed that they had? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### And did those calculations exceed 6 the manufacturer's suggested limitations? 7 A 

### It did not. 8 Q 

### How about as perceived by the FAA 9 inspectors? 10 A 

### No, they did not. 11 Q 

### So, in all three of those factors, 12 either as calculated by the SkyWest crews at 13 the time or adjusting for the observed 14 variations by FAA inspectors, none of the 15 flights would have been in excess of the 16 manufacturer'slimitationsfor takeoff weight, 17 center of gravity, runway performance, climb 18 performance, or maximum operating altitude? 19 A 

### That is correct. None of these 20 flights would have had any exceedance. 21 Q 

### Can you turn with me to page 4 of 22 your report? I call your attention to Flight

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### 1 4553 operated on March 3, 2011, aircraft 2 

### number N800SK. It was a 900 type RJ and it 3 was operated between San Diego and Salt Lake 4 City. Did you do an analysis for this flight? 5 A 

### Yes, I did. 6 Q 

### Could you tell me what you 7 analyzed? 8 A 

### Yes, one moment, please. 9 

### For this flight, I analyzed the 10 cargo load report as well as the alleged 11 baggage loading as observed by the FAA 12 inspector. 13 Q 

### What did you find? 14 A 

### I found that the total weight 15 adjustment, as alleged by the FAA inspector, 16 would have been somewhere between 120 and 150 17 pounds of additional weight beyond what was 18 accounted for by the flight crew. 19 Q 

### And even adding any of those 20 variations, did this cause the airplane to be 21 out of compliance with center of gravity or 22 weight and balance?

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### 1 A 

### No, it did not. 2 Q 

### Turn to page 5, Flight 4445 also 3 

### operating on March 3, 2011. This is a CRJ 4 type 700 operating between Phoenix and Salt 5 

### Lake City. Did you do an analysis of this 6 flight? 7 A 

### Yes, sir, I did. 8 Q 

### We will let you refresh yourself 9 there. And then if you would go ahead and 10 tell us what you analyzed and what you found. 11 A 

### For this flight, I found that the 12 alleged items observed by the FAA inspector 13 wouldhave resultedin an additional 90 pounds 14 of cargo onboard above and beyond the amount 15 calculated by the flight crew. 16 Q 

### What affect did that extra weight 17 and balance have on the operation of this 18 flight? 19 A 

### The 90 pounds would have had zero 20 effect on the operation of this flight. 21 Q 

### Why is that? 22 A 

### That is because the additional 90

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433246 1 pounds would have left the aircraft's gross 2 weight still well below the maximum gross 3 weight for that runway use and the center of 4 gravity is well within the envelope provided 5 by the manufacturerfor this aircraft for this 6 configuration. 7 Q How far below the takeoff weight 8 did the airplane remain? 9 A As calculated by the flight crew, 10 the takeoff weight was 4,453 pounds, below the 11 maximumrunway takeoff weight. As observedby 12 the inspector, it would be less 90 pounds. 13 So, just some quick math in my head, I would 14 believe that to be 4,363 pounds. 15 Q So, explain to me, in order to 16 take off, the runway limitation was 71,000 17 pounds. The aircraft came in at about 67,000 18 pounds. You have got 4,000 pounds of play for 19 that aircraft for power at takeoff, the thrust 20 of the engines. Is it your opinion that this 21 would have then zero, without much play, zero 22 impact on the operation of that aircraft?

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1 A 

### Yes, I feel that the effect of an 2 additional 90 

### pounds would have been 3 

### negligible. 4 Q 

### Now, the center of gravity 5 changes, doesn't it, Mr. Salamone, over the 6 course of the flight? 7 A 

### Yes, it does. 8 Q 

### So, here you calculated center of 9 gravity that you calculated at the time of 10 takeoff? 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### Do you calculate it at cruise and 13 also at arrival? 14 A 

### No, we do not. Through the 15 approved weight and balance program, the 16 center of gravity calculation, as it is 17 calculatedprior to takeoff, will ensure that 18 the center of gravity will remain within the 19 manufacturerenvelope for the entire duration 20 of that flight. 21 Q 

### Can you walk us through how a 22 center of gravity calculation is done? I see

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### 1 at the back of this report you included a 2 couple of charts and figures. 3 A 

### Yes. So, particularly, this 4 Flight here, 4445, was a CRJ-700 series. So, 5 if you turn to page 19 of the report, this 6 contains a Bombardier CRJ-700 series weight 7 and balance envelope. 8 Now, to use this envelope, it is a 9 plot. On the left-hand side of the chart, it 10 is aircraft weight in thousands of pounds. On 11 the bottom axis of the chart is the location 12 of the center of gravity. Now, that is an 13 index in inches, which is just a unit of 14 measurement. On the top end of the chart is 15 percent, mean aerodynamicchord, which is what 16 has been referenced in my report. 17 

### So, for this particular flight, 18 the calculatedand observedor allegedtakeoff 19 weights, would have been very close to 67,000 20 

### pounds. And the crew calculated center of 21 gravity was located at 22.19 percent mean 22 aerodynamic chord. The alleged configuration

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433249 1 would have shifted that takeoff center of 2 gravity to a location at 22.46 percent of mean 3 aerodynamic chord. 4 So by plotting this on the figure 5 found on page 19, at 67,000 pounds, the 6 intersectionof 67,000 pounds and 22 percent, 7 22 to 23 percent mean aerodynamic chord, 8 really results in a very small or negligible, 9 ln my opinion, ln change in center of gravity 10 location. 11 Q More or less than an inch? 12 A An inch in terms of physical? 13 Q Yes. 14 A You know, that would require a 15 calculation. I would assume not but to do 16 that, I would need to do a calculation. 17 Q But again, negligible change. 18 A Correct. 19 Q So you found that for this flight 20 eitherunder the flight crew's calculationsor 21 calculating with the observed weight of the 22 FAA that the center of gravity remains

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### 1 basicallythe center of the envelope. Is that 2 correct? 3 A 

### That is correct. 4 Q 

### All right, let's look at page 6 of 5 your report. This involved the flight from 6 Missoula to Salt Lake City, operatingagain on 7 March 3, 2011, Flight 4540. And here you have 8 a discrepancybetweenballast and COMAT, as it 9 

### was recorded on the CLR. But if I did the 10 math correctly, there's no actual difference 11 in weight. It is 350 pounds either way. Is 12 that right? 13 A 

### That is correct. 14 Q 

### Did you do a center of gravity and 15 weight analysis for this flight? 16 A 

### Yes, sir, I did. 17 Q 

### What was your conclusion? 18 A 

### My conclusion is that the flight 19 crew accurately calculated the gross weight 20 for this airplane to take off at 49,863 pounds 21 along with a center of gravity location 22 located at 10.10 percent mean aerodynamic

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### l chord. The observedconfigurationresulted in 2 no change to that weight. So, the airplane 3 would have performed as planned and the load 4 manifest but for this flight, it would have 5 been 100 percent accurate. 6 Q 

### Thank you. Let's turn to page 7. 7 It is also for March 3, 2011. This is Flight 8 4613 from Omaha to Salt Lake City involvedthe 9 CRJ-900. This one involved animals loaded on 10 the aircraft and how they were calculated. 11 Can you walk us through this, your 12 analysis and your report? 13 A 

### Yes, I 

### can. The report, FAA 14 report, indicates that the two live animals 15 were loadedon this aircraft and not indicated 16 on the cargo load report. The cargo load 17 report does indicate 30 pounds of freight, 18 which is the correct location to record this 19 type of shipment, and that the only omission 20 on this CLR or cargo load report was to have 21 circled that live animals were present in the 22 cargo pit. And this is really a flight crew

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### 1 notification and only that a live animal was 2 

### present on the aircraft. And the load 3 manifest for this flight also was 100 percent 4 accurate. 5 Q 

### So, no change in weight or CG? 6 A 

### That is correct. 7 Q 

### Would you turn to page 8 now, 8 please? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Page 8 details a flight that is 11 operating on March 8, 2011 Flight 4461, 12 aircraft tail number N804SK, which was a 900 13 type regional jet, this time from Los Angeles 14 to Las Vegas. And this one involvedtwo heavy 15 bags present in the cargo compartment. 16 Did you analyze this flight? 17 A 

### Yes, I did. 18 Q 

### Can you walk us through your 19 analysis and your conclusions, please? 20 A 

### Yes, I can. The FAA inspector 21 report documents that two heavy bags were 22 present in the cargo compartment, while zero

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### 1 heavy bags were accounted for on the cargo 2 load report. For this particular flight, we 3 

### don't have a total piece count. So, it is not 4 

### possible to determine if these two heavy bags 5 

### were counted as standard bags on the cargo 6 

### load report or had just not been counted at 7 all. 8 

### So, the weight discrepancy, 9 depending on whether or not they had been 10 counted as a standard itern or not, the maximum 11 discrepancy here could have been up to 120 12 pounds additional weight as observed. 13 Q 

### Did that fall outside of the 14 acceptable maximum takeoff weight? 15 A It 

### did not. 16 Q 

### How about the center of gravity? 17 A 

### It was also well within the 18 manufacturer's specified envelope. 19 Q 

### And is there anything that gave 20 you pause about the safety of this flight, 21 then, for either the center of gravity or the 22 weight as adjustedfor the observationsby the

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### 1 FAA? 2 A 

### No. 3 Q 

### Let 1

### s turn to page 9. This is 4 

### Flight 6756 operated on March 9, 2011. The 5 aircraft number N907SW, a 200 type regional 6 jet operated between Chicago and Colorado 7 

### Springs, Colorado. This one also involves 8 counting an additional heavy bag. 9 Did you have the opportunity to 10 analyze this flight? 11 A 

### Yes, I did. 12 Q 

### Can you walk us through your 13 analysis, please? 14 A 

### Yes. This analysis for this 15 flight is very similar to the previous flight. 16 The FAA reports that one heavybag was present 17 in the cargo compartment, while zero heavy 18 bags were accounted for on the cargo load 19 report. 20 Again, we don 1

### t know the total 21 piece count of standard and heavy iterns. So, 22 the

--

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1 Q 

### We don't know it because it wasn't 2 3 A 

### It was not reported. 4 Q 

### reported by the FAA inspector. 5 A 

### Correct. So, it is not possible 6 to determine if this heavy bag that had been 7 observed was a part of the standard count or 8 

### not. The total discrepancy would have been 9 either 30 or a maximum of 60 pounds deviation 10 from the load report. 11 Q 

### Would that 30 or 60 pounds have a 12 noticeable impact on the center of gravity or 13 aircraft weight limitations? 14 A 

### No, it wouldn't have. 15 Q 

### Do you expect the aircraft to 16 operate without any problems under both of 17 these conditions, as reported? 18 A 

### Yes, I would assume that the 19 flight crew would have been unaware of the 20 discrepancy. 21 Q 

### Unaware by the way that the 22 aircraft responded to the additional weight?

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1 A 

### Correct. 2 Q 

### And turning to page 10, this is 3 March 9, 2011, Flight 6991. This is also a 4 200 type regionaljet operated from Chicago to 5 

### Colorado Springs, tail number N973SW. This 6 one also reports

-- is a case involving two 7 heavy bags that were observed by the FAA that 8 they didn't find listed on the CLR. 9 Did you have the opportunity, Mr. 10 Salamone, to analyze this flight? 11 A 

### Yes, I did. 12 Q 

### What did you find? 13 A 

### This flight 

### is, again, very 14 similar to the previous two in that the two 15 heavy bags observed by the FAA were -- let me 16 correct that. We don't have a total baggage 17 piece count that is provided by the FAA. So, 18 the observedtwo bags may or may not have been 19 included in the standard piece count. The 20 total weight deviation would have been an 21 either additional 60 or 120 pounds, based on 22 whether or not those bags had been included as

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### 1 standard bags. 2 Q 

### If that additional 60 or 120 3 pounds were present on the aircraft, would it 4 have moved the center of gravity outside of 5 the acceptable envelope? 6 A 

### It would not. 7 Q 

### Would it have exceeded the maximum 8 takeoff weight? 9 A 

### No, sir, it would not. 10 Q 

### Would it have exceeded any other 11 limitations set on the aircraft by the 12 manufacturer under these conditions? 13 A 

### No, it would not. 14 Q 

### Do you think that the flight crew 15 would been able to notice or feel any 16 difference in the aircraft's performance? 17 A 

### No, sir. 18 Q 

### Turning to page 11, this is a 19 flight that was operated on March 14, 2011, 20 Flight 6960, a 200 type regional jet from 21 Denver to help me. 22 A Sioux Falls.

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1 Q 

### Sioux Falls. 2 A 

### Sioux Falls, South Dakota. 3 Q 

### Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And 4 the tail number N679SA. In this case, the FAA 5 reports that one heavy bag was present in the 6 cargo compartment, while zero heavy bags were 7 accounted for on the cargo load report. 8 Did you have a chance to analyze 9 this case? 10 A 

### Yes, I did. 11 Q 

### What did you find? 12 A 

### I found that the same exists here; 13 that we are unable to tell if this one heavy 14 bag was documented as a standard bag or was 15 not documented at all. 16 The resulting weight deviation 17 would have been either an additional30 pounds 18 or 60 pounds above what the flight crew had 19 planned on the load manifest. 20 Q 

### Would that additional weight have 21 moved the center of gravity outside the 22 acceptable envelope of limitations?

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1 A It would not. 2 Q How about the maximum takeoff 3 weight? 4 A No, it wouldn't. 5 Q Fuel planning? 6 A Fuel planning would have been very 7 close. The additional weight may have caused 8 a slight increase in fuel usage, just because 9 it costs more to fly around the extra weight. 10 However, SkyWest has a policy of 11 adding contingency fuel that is above and 12 beyond the federal required fuel and any 13 nominal increase in burn would have been 14 accountedfor and includedin that contingency 15 fuel. 16 Q Does that stay true for the 17 flights we have analyzed previous to this? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So, with the additional weight, as 20 observedby the FAA inspector, would that have 21 impacted safety on this flight in any respect? 22 A No, I don't believe so.

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1 Q 

### Turn to page 12, please. This is 2 a flight operated on April 7, 2011, Flight 3 6756, a 700 type CRJ operated from Chicago to 4 Colorado Springs, tail number N755SK. 5 

### Here, the FAA reports that 33 6 standard and two heavy bags were present in 7 the cargo compartment but the CLR indicates 8 that 30 standard and zero heavy bags were 9 

### present in the aft cargo compartment. 10 Did you have the opportunity to 11 analyze this flight? 12 A 

### Yes, I did. 13 Q 

### What did you find, Mr. Salamone? 14 A 

### I found that the observed weight 15 would have resulted in an additional 210 16 pounds located in the aft compartment the 17 aft cargo compartment over what was indicated 18 on the cargo load report. 19 Q 

### The aircraft was approximately 20 6,000poundsbelowmaximumtakeoffweight. Is 21 that correct? 22 A 

### That is correct.

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1 Q 

### So adding another 210 pounds with 2 6,000 pounds of play, what kind of an effect 3 does that have on the aircraft performance? 4 A 

### It would have had a very minimal 5 effect on aircraft performance. 6 Q 

### Well, did it exceed the maximum 7 takeoff weights? 8 

### A No, it did not. 9 Q 

### Or any operational weight? 10 A It did not. 11 Q 

### How about center of gravity? 12 A The center of gravity, as 13 calculated by the flight crew was located at 14 22.52 percentmean aerodynamic chord. And the 15 additional 210 pounds would have shifted the 16 center of gravity location to a point 23.12 17 

### percent mean aerodynamic chord. Again, a 18 very, very small shift within the envelope. 19 Q 

### But it stilled stayed within the 20 envelope. 21 A 

### Correct. 22 Q 

### Would this have had any effect on

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### 1 the safety of the flight? 2 A 

### No, sir. 3 Q 

### Turn to page 13, please. This 4 

### page of your report analyzes the flight that 5 

### occurred on May 5, 2011, 

### Flight 1160, 

### a CRJ6 700 

### from Houston to Colorado Springs. In this 7 

### case, the FAA reports that 35 

### standard bags 8 

### were present in the cargo compartment, while 9 

### the CLR indicates 23 

### standard and zero heavy 10 

### bags were present in the aft cargo 11 compartment. 12 

### Did you have the opportunity 13 analyze this flight? 14 A 

### Yes, I did. 15 Q 

### What did you find a sit pertained 16 

### to the takeoff weight? 17 A 

### One moment, please. Let me read 18 this. 19 Q 

### Go ahead. 20 A 

### The observed configuration would 21 

### have resultedin an additional 360 

### pounds over 22 what was indicated on the cargo load report.

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1 Q Now, the aircraft had about 5400 2 pounds of play, right 3 A Correct. 4 Q below its maximum takeoff 5 weight. So, adding 360 pounds when it had 6 5400 additional there, what impact would that 7 have? 8 A A very small impact. Negligible, 9 I would think. 10 Q It is still well below the takeoff 11 weight? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q How about center of gravity? How 14 would the additional 360 pounds have moved the 15 CG? 16 A It would have moved the CG 17 approximately one percent, which, again, 18 within the size of that envelope is a very 19 small change in CG. 20 Q In your opinion, did this change, 21 if it existed, have any effect on the safety 22 of the flight?

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1 A 

### No, it did not. 2 Q 

### Turn the page now to page 14, 3 please. This is a flight operated on June 2, 4 2011, Flight 5840 from Chicago to

-- help m. 5 A 

### From Houston. 6 Q 

### From Houston to CLT? 7 A 

### CLT, I believe that is Charlotte. 8 

### But that is going from memory. I 

### haven't 9 operated in this airport. 10 Q 

### Well, obviously, I 

### am not a pilot 11 

### of the aircraft. Some of these I know well 12 and some of them I don't. 13 But the tail number was N937SW. 14 And the FAA reported that 27 standard and 20 15 plane side valet bags were present in cargo 16 compartment, while the CLR indicated that 19 17 standard and 15 plane side valet bags were 18 present in the aft cargo compartment. The 19 result would have been an additional 390 20 pounds in the cargo compartment that was not 21 indicated in the CLR. 22 Did you analyze this flight?

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1 A 

### Yes, I did. 2 Q 

### What did you find, as it pertained 3 to takeoff weight? 4 A 

### I found that the additional 390 5 pounds would have not exceeded the maximum 6 takeoff weight for this runway, nor would it 7 have exceeded the manufacturer's maximum 8 takeoff weights. 9 Q 

### The aircraft was about 3,000 10 pounds below the maximum takeoff weight as 11 

### calculated by the flight crew. Is that 12 correct? 13 A 

### That is correct. 14 Q 

### So adding another 390 pounds still 15 leaves you with what, 2,600 or so -- 16 A 

### That is correct. 17 Q



### -- of flight? 18 

### How does it move the center of 19 gravity? 20 A 

### The center of gravity would have 21 moved approximately one and one-half percent 22 aft or towards of the envelope.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433266 1 Again, this would have been a very 2 small change for that flight crew. 3 Q The airplane was still in balance? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And within the envelope as 6 prescribed by the manufacturer? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Do you feel that the additional 9 390 pounds jeopardized the safety of the 10 flight in any regard for Flight 5840? 11 A I do not. 12 Q Turn to page 15, please, of your 13 report. This is a flight that was operated on 14 June 15, 2011, Flight 4781. The aircraft tail 15 number was N603SK. This is the CRJ-700 16 operated between Salt Lake and Reno. The FAA 17 reports that 190 of COMAT were present in the 18 cargo compartment when the CLR indicates that 19 160 pounds of COMAT were present ln the 20 compartment, a discrepancy of 30 pounds. 21 Did you have the opportunity to 22 analyze this flight?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433267 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q The additional 30 pounds, what 3 kind of impact did that have on the maximum 4 takeoff weight? 5 A The flight crew calculatedtakeoff 6 weight for this flight was 11,600 pounds below 7 the maximum for that runway. So, an 8 additional 30 pounds would have been a very 9 small change. 10 Q It still had 11,000 pounds of 11 play. 12 A Correct. 13 Q Plus additional holdover fuel and 14 all the other factors that you have spoken 15 about earlier. 16 A Correct. 17 Q How about the center of gravity? 18 Would it move that at all? 19 A Yes, mathematically it would have 20 moved it a point to one percent of mean 21 aerodynamic chord, which is a very small shift 22 but, mathematically it does exist.

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1 Q 

### Minuscule. 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### Did it still remain within the 4 center of gravity envelope? 5 A 

### Yes, it did. 6 Q 

### Adding an additional 30 pounds to 7 this flight, does it impact or did it impact 8 safety in any regard in any operation of this 9 flight? 10 A 

### No, sir. 11 Q 

### Turn the page to 16. And this was 12 Flight 1160 operated on July 14, 2011, tail 13 number N742SK, a 700 type RJ from Houston to 14 Colorado Springs. The FAA reports that 43 15 standard bags were present in the cargo 16 compartment but the CLR indicates that 36 17 standardbags were present. The result would 18 have been an additional 210 pounds in the aft 19 cargo compartment. 20 How would an additional 210 pounds 21 have impacted the maximum takeoff weight for 22 this aircraft?

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### 1 A 

### The additional 210 pounds would 2 not have affected the maximum takeoff weight. 3 The actual gross weight would have still been 4 well below the maximum takeoff weight of just 5 over 73,000 pounds. 6 Q 

### Even adding those 210 pounds on 7 the aircraft, it was 4,000 pounds, at least, 8 below the maximum takeoff weight? 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### How about the center of gravity? 11 How as that impacted by having an additional 12 201 pounds? 13 A 

### The center of gravity would have 14 shifted from approximately one-half of one 15 percent mean aerodynamic chord, which would 16 have still beenwell withinthe manufacturer's 17 envelope and been a very small change for the 18 flight crew. 19 Q 

### And we're talking about moving 20 that CG around more or less than an inch or 21 less? 22 A 

### That again, I have to calculate

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1 

### mathematically. I would say no more than 2 perhaps the width of a pencil dot on the 3 chart. 4 Q 

### Turn with me, if you would, 5 to Flight 5449. That is on page 17. It is a 6 flight that was operatedon November 16, 2011, 7 tail number N23S

-- 236SW. 8 

### This was a 

### Brasilia EMB-120 9 between Denver and Rock Springs, Wyoming? 10 A 

### I believe so. 11 Q 

### RKS

-- Denver to RKS. I believe 12 that is Rock Springs. 13 The FAA reports that one heavy bag 14 was present in the cargo compartment while 15 zero heavybags were accounted for on the CLR. 16 What is the weight discrepancy, 17 then, with this flight, Mr. Salamone? 18 A 

### The weight discrepancy would have 19 been either a 30 or 60 pound, based on whether 20 or not that observed heavy bag had been 21 included in the standard bag count or not 22 included at all.

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1 Q 

### How did this affect the maximum 2 gross takeoff weight? 3 A 

### Well, it would not have affected 4 

### the maximum gross takeoff weight. It would 5 have raisedthe actual gross takeoff weightby 6 about 60 pounds. 7 Q 

### And by raising that actual takeoff 8 weight, did it exceed the maximumtolerance as 9 set forth by the manufacturer? 10 A 

### It did not. 11 Q 

### How about the center of gravity? 12 Did it move outside the acceptable envelope? 13 A 

### No, it did not. The center of 14 gravity shift would have been a one-inch 15 shift, which is a different unit than we 16 referencedwith the otherCanadairflights and 17 that's because this was a Brasilia. 18 Q 

### You just use different metrics? 19 A 

### Correct. The Brasilia does not 20 utilize an electronicweight and balance. So, 21 my method of analyzing this flight was 22 slightly different.

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### 272

1 Q 

### Do you believe the addition of 2 either 30 or 60 pounds in fact impacted the 3 safety of the flight on this operation? 4 A 

### I do not believe it would have 5 affected the safety of the flight. 6 Q 

### The remaining part of your report 7 are a couple of figures. Figure 1 --we have 8 

### walked through Figure 2. Would you tell us 9 what Figure 1 is? 10 A 

### Yes, Figure 1 is the manufacturer 11 weight and balance envelope for 900 series 12 Canadair Regional Jet. It is very similar in 13 form and in use to the CRJ-700 that we 14 referred to earlier. 15 Q 

### So, the weight is listed in the 16 left-hand column? 17 A 

### The weight in the left-handcolumn 18 

### is presented in kilograms. The weight in 19 pounds, as our units, is on the right-hand 20 side of this chart. 21 Q 

### And the MAC is along the bottom? 22 A 

### The MAC is on the bottom for this

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433273 1 chart, whereas it was on the top. However, it 2 is still a plotted item of weight in pounds as 3 our calculationand centerof gravity location 4 percent mean aerodynamic chord. 5 Q So, if you go to page 8, you 6 calculated the CG for Flight 4464 by using 7 Figure 1. Is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q Would you plot the CG, then, for 10 Flight 4464? Just walk us through how you 11 found that in this envelope. 12 A Yes, verbally? 13 Q Yes. 14 A The flight crew calculatedtakeoff 15 weight for this flight was 71,420 pounds. The 16 observed takeoff weight would have been with 17 a 120 pound additional weight. That is a 18 worst-case scenario weight based on the 19 unknown piece count. 20 So, if the worst-case scenario 21 would have been also right around 71,500 22 pounds and the CG location, both the

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### 1 calculatedby the flight crew and observedby 2 the inspector, would have been between 20.55 3 and 20.97 percent. 4 And again, this 20.97 is reference 5 

### to the 120 pounds. That's the worst-case 6 scenario. The report indicates 20.76, which 7 is, in my opinion, more than likely what 8 

### happened. And that is that the bags were 9 counted in the standard piece count, rather 10 than not having been accounted for at all. 11 

### So, in any event, we are really 12 looking at around a 75,000 pound plot

-- I'm 13 sorry-- 71,500 pounds and a 21 percent mean 14 aerodynamic chord. 15 If we look on the right-hand side 16 of Figure 2

-- correction, Figure 1 on page 17 18, 71,500. You will see it as a small tick 18 mark and will move left to the point where 19 that intersects with 21 percent mean 20 aerodynamic chord. And I find that that 21 intersection is right in the middle of this 22 weight and balance envelope.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433275 1 And the observed configuration by 2 the inspector, it really would have been a 3 minimal, almost not plottable on the scale of 4 this chart. 5 Q Again, maybe the point within your 6 pencil, you mechanical pencil, the difference 7 was well within the envelope. 8 A Correct. 9 Q And turn to Figure 3, please. 10 What is Figure 3? 11 A Figure 3 is a weight and balance 12 envelope for the 200 series Canadair Regional 13 Jet. 14 Q Did you use Figure 3 to plot the 15 center of gravity for Flight 6756, which 16 appears on page 9 of your report? 17 A Yes, sir, I did. 18 Q Would you verbally walk us 19 through, again, how you would plot using 20 Figure 3, the center of gravity, both as 21 perceived by the flight crew and observed by 22 the FAA inspector?

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1 A Yes. The flight crew calculated 2 gross takeoff weight for this flight was 3 50,080 pounds. 4 The observed configuration from 5 the inspector, in my opinion, more than likely 6 would have been an additional 30 pounds, in 7 that that heavy bag would have been counted as 8 a standard bag. 9 The 30 pounds would have increased 10 the weight to 50, 110 and caused an eleven 11 hundredths of a percent change in mean 12 aerodynamic chord. 13 Plotting that on Figure 3, a 14 50,000 pound line with approximately a 12 15 percent mean aerodynamic chord would have 16 placed the center of gravity for this flight 17 in the upper left-hand corner of the weight 18 and balance envelope and been still well 19 within the manufacturer's plots. 20 Q And as observed by the FAA 21 inspector, how would that change the plot on 22 this chart?

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1 A 

### It would have changed it. I guess 2 the best way to say it is, move the plot up by 3 30 pounds and over to the right, or aft, by 4 eleven one-hundredths of a percent. 5 Q 

### Would the dot then appear very 6 near to your original plotted dot? 7 A 

### I think so. In this particular 8 chart, yes. 9 Q 

### Almost touching each other? 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### Mr. Salamone, would you turn to 12 Figure 4, please, in your report? 13 A 

### Yes, sir. 14 Q 

### Can you identify that? 15 A 

### This is a manual load manifest 16 form for Flight 5449. 17 Q 

### Why did you use this chart instead 18 of the other charts used previously? 19 A 

### The Embraer 120 aircraft would not 20 does utilize electronic weight and balance. 21 And this is the approved method, the FAA 22 approved method, for computing weight and

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### 1 balance for the EMB-120 aircraft. 2 Q 

### So, I see some red lines on this 3 

### chart. Are those typically there? 4 A 

### No, they are not. The red lines 5 on the weight and balance envelope is at the 6 

### middle the bottom center of this chart. 7 That is a plot that I 

### have inserted 8 graphically to depict where the loading 9 configurationwas for this flight because the 10 crew calculated the loading configuration. 11 Q 

### And that plot falls within the 12 envelope? 13 A 

### Yes, it does. 14 Q 

### What was the difference, then, 15 between Figure 4 and Figure 5? 16 A 

### The difference between Figure 4 17 and 5 is that Figure 4 is the crew-calculated 18 loading configuration. The Figure 5 depicts 19 the FAA-observed loading configuration. The 20 notable change being that the FAA observed 21 loadingconfigurationhas 840 pounds of cargo. 22 The crew calculated configuration has 810

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHDDE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202)234·4433279 1 pounds of cargo. 2 Q So, in both Figure 4 and Figure 5, 3 the intersect falls within the aft galley 4 weight and the CG envelope. 5 A That is correct. 6 Q You work in SkyWest's Special 7 Projects Division and you also have a degree 8 in human factors. What human factors are 9 involved in loading an airplane and counting 10 bags? 11 A I think that the most difficult 12 aspect of aircraft loading and baggage 13 handlinghas to do with the environmentaround 14 which it is centered. The ramp environment it 15 may have temperature swings, it may have noise 16 and vibration. It could have light, darkness 17 issues, as well a flurry of activity making 18 focus difficult for that particular employee. 19 Q Interruptions? 20 A Correct? 21 Q Are there interruptions on the 22 ramp?

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1 A 

### There may be. It is a very active 2 area that could cause, perhaps, a pause in 3 counting or bags arriving at different times 4 

### from different connecting flights. 5 Q 

### Humans are involved in this 6 

### operation. Is that true? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### What challenges does that bring to 9 

### the project when you have humans involved in 10 

### the counting and loading of the bags? 11 A 

### Well, I think that humans are 12 

### inherently they have a difficult time 13 

### inherently with counting, and when you throw 14 

### in some difficult environmental factors, it 15 

### makes that task even more difficult. And it 16 

### is really the effects of the environment on 17 

### human performance that could have negative 18 

### implications. 19 Q 

### Are you surprised as you went 20 

### through these calculations to see 21 

### discrepancies from time to time when humans 22 are loading aircraft?

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1 A 

### No, I'm not. 2 Q 

### Being off by a bag or two? 3 A 

### That, to me, with the complexity 4 of this operation and the complexity of 5 

### accounting for the bags that's, I guess from 6 

### a human performanceperspective, not entirely 7 

### surprising. 8 Q 

### Do you believe it is reasonable to 9 

### expect perfection in this environment with 10 

### humans involved that we should be able, every 11 

### single time to count and perfectly load bags? 12 A 

### I think that is reasonable to 13 

### strive for perfection but unreasonable to 14 

### expect perfection with the sheer volume of 15 

### bags that is handled by SkyWest Airlines. 16 

### MR. EMERSON: Thank you. No 17 further questions. 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. HARPER: 20 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Salamone. 21 A 

### Good afternoon. 22 Q 

### I understand that you will be

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1 leaving SkyWest to take a new position at 2 Delta Airlines. Congratulations on that. I 3 assume that that's a bit of a big career move 4 for you. 5 A Thank you, sir. It is an 6 opportunity. 7 Q Sir, Mr. Salamone, you have been 8 testifying here as an expert in the field of 9 aircraft weight and balance. I would like to 10 talk to you about weight and balance in a more 11 general sense, if that is alright with you. 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q On your direct examination, you 14 testified that among the things that you took 15 into consider in doing your calculation and 16 performingyour -- on these instances of these 17 flights was runway length, environment, and 18 environmental factors. Is that correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q Would you agree, then, that the 21 reasonwhy you took runway length into account 22 is that all else being equal, those

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### 1 environmental factors you spoke of, that a 2 heavier aircraftrequires a longerdistance to 3 takeoff on? 4 A 

### Yes, that is correct. 5 Q 

### All things being equal, a heavier 6 aircraft needs to reach a higher speed to 7 become airborne. 8 A 

### That is also correct. 9 Q 

### A heavier aircraft has a lower 10 rate of climb. 11 A 

### That is correct. 12 Q 

### A lower angle of climb. 13 A 

### That is correct. 14 Q 

### A lower service ceiling? 15 A 

### Also correct. 16 Q 

### A slower cruising speed. 17 A 

### The cruising speed for all else 18 

### being equal, yes. However, it is more than 19 likely that a slightlyheavier aircraft would 20 have had the additional thrust to maintainthe 21 

### planned cruising speed. But with the same 22 thrust, yes, it would have a slightly lower

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### 1 cruising speed. 2 Q 

### Sir, to reset navigational thrust 3 required to maintain the same cruising speed, 4 that would involve higher fuel burn. Correct? 5 

### A Yes, that is correct. 6 Q 

### And as a result, the aircraft 7 

### would have a shorter range. 8 

### A Yes, that is correct. 9 Q 

### Now, at the other end of the 10 flight, all things being equal, a heavier 11 aircraft requires a higher landing speed. 12 A 

### Also correct. 13 Q 

### And as a result, a longer landing 14 roll. 15 A 

### That is correct. 16 Q 

### You would agree that one of the 17 reasons we calculate the aircraft weight an 18 balance is to ensure that the center of 19 gravity remains within the forward and aft 20 

### limits. Correct? 21 A 

### Yes, I would agree. 22 Q 

### And then the center of gravity aft

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### 1 of the aft would pose an issue. 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### And that is because a center of 4 gravity aft of the aft would result in an 5 increased risk of stalling the aircraft. 6 A 

### The center of gravity location 7 exceeding the aft limitation, it could have 8 numerous effects on the performanceof flight. 9 Stall recovery would be one of them. 10 Q 

### And not just stall recovery but my 11 question was an increased risk of the stall 12 occurring in the first place. 13 A 

### That I don't necessarily believe 14 would be the case, provided that the flight 15 crew maintained the air speed. 16 Again, this is what we are talking 17 now about an area that is outside the 18 manufacturer's design and approved envelope. 19 So, I am reallynot the person that would need 20 to be contacted regarding flight operations 21 outsideof the manufacturer'senvelope. That, 22 you would need a test engineer of some type.

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### 1 Q 

### But you would agree that should a 2 stall occur, that you would have a reduced 3 ability to recover from the stall? 4 A 

### It is a likely scenario. But 5 again, this is now speaking outside of the 6 confines of the approved operations. 7 Q 

### Okay. Generally speaking at the 8 other end of the center of gravity spectrum, 9 a center of gravity forward of the forward 10 limit could make it more difficult to rotate 11 the aircraft. 12 A 

### Yes, that is correct. Again, with 13 the caveat that we are now talking about 14 

### operations outside the envelope. And I am 15 probably not, I don't feel, an expert in that 16 area and that you would need a Canadair 17 engineer. 18 Q 

### Okay. So, if it is more difficult 19 to rotate the aircraft, you would require a 20 higher speed to become airborne. 21 A 

### The aerodynamics of the forward 22 center of gravity would be more than likely

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433287 l result in an increased takeoff roll, due to 2 drag factors. However, the air speed itself, 3 I believe, would be the same, regardless of 4 that center of gravity location or very, very 5 close to it. 6 The primary factor in air speed 7 required for takeoff is the weight of the 8 aircraft. 9 Q Fair enough. 10 All right. If I am not mistaken, ll you testified on direct that you have flown 12 approximately 3,000 flights for SkyWest 13 Airlines. Am I remembering that accurately? 14 A That would be my approximation. 15 My logbook reflects somewhere around 3200 16 hours in Canadair Regional Jets. And purely 17 from memory, I believe the average day's 18 length is an hour or slightly thereabouts. 19 So, it might be slightly less than 3,000 20 flights but again, an approximation. 21 Q As a pilot on those flights, you 22 yourself are not on the ramp helping load the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-4433288 1 cargo, are you? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Generally speaking, the pilots, 4 not just in your experience but as a general 5 rule, pilots aren't on the ramp helping load 6 cargo in SkyWest's day-to-day operations. 7 A That is correct. 8 Q Now, as a pilot, when you are 9 doing the weight and balance calculation, one 10 of the things

-- for SkyWest Airlines under 11 this program, one of the things you base the 12 weight and balance calculationon is the cargo 13 load report. Is that correct? 14 A That is one of the things for 15 which the weight and balance is calculated, 16 yes. 17 Q So, it is not necessarilythe sole 18 source of information? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q However, that cargo load report is 21 one of the sources of information used to 22 generate the load manifest. Is that correct?

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1 A 

### That is correct. 2 Q 

### And the load manifest is, for lack 3 of a better term, that is sort of at the 4 

### ending point of the weight and balance 5 

### calculation. 6 A 

### Yes, the load manifest is the 7 

### document that will contain the aircraft gross 8 

### weight and center of gravity location, which 9 

### is then used to determine performance 10 

### requirements. 11 Q 

### So, the load manifest takes into 12 

### account all of the factors that go into 13 

### calculating the weight and balance of the 14 

### aircraft? 15 A 

### Yes. 16 Q 

### And in performing your 17 

### calculations for these 14 

### specific flights, 18 you based those calculations, in part, on the 19 cargo load report. 20 A 

### Yes, sir. 21 Q 

### And in the case of the FAA 22 observed state of the aircraft, you modified

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### 1 that CLR based on the ASI's observations? 2 A 

### That is correct. 3 Q 

### In performing your calculations, 4 you did not rely on any information from any 5 other SkyWest personnel? 6 A No, 

### sir. The only other 7 

### information that I relied on was the 8 electronic load manifest, as it is recorded, 9 and any other informationthat might have been 10 contained about that flight. 11 Q 

### You would agree that the safe 12 operation of an aircraft requires that the 13 weight and balance of the aircraft be within 14 the operating limitations? 15 A 

### Yes, I would agree with that. 16 Q 

### As specified by the manufacturer 17 in the aircraft flight manual or weight and 18 balance manual as may be applicable. 19 A Yes, I would agree with that. 20 Q 

### And you would agree, as a pilot, 21 that it is important to know the weight and 22 balance of the aircraft is within those

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1 

### operating limitationsbefore you take takeoff 2 the aircraft? 3 A 

### Yes, I would agree with that. 4 

### MR. HARPER: And if you give me 5 just a second here

-- Mr. Salamone, I believe 6 

### that is all the questions I have for you. 7 

### Mr. Emerson? 8 

### MR. EMERSON: Yes, a little 9 

### redirect. 10 

### REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 

### BY MR. EMERSON: 12 Q 

### Mr. Salamone, on the CLRs that the 13 

### flight crew ends up with, if you were to 14 

### receive a late arriving bag or, say a 15 

### passenger couldn't stuff it in the overhead 16 

### bin and a bag comes off and it goes in the 17 

### tail, is the flight crew required to include 18 

### that change ln 

### weight in its flight 19 calculations? 20 A 

### Yes, it is. 21 Q 

### What is the crew required by 22 SkyWest standardoperatingprocedure to amend

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1 

### the CLR and changes its copy? 2 A 

### The flight crew is required to 3 

### amend the flight crew copy of the CLR. The 4 station would be required to amend their copy 5 

### of the CLR. 6 Q 

### So, if the ASI looks at the CLR as 7 

### he or she received it from the flight crew, 8 

### and then fount is was off by a bag or two, it 9 

### is possible that the flight crew was aware of 10 

### that bag, added it to its calculations, and 11 

### operatedaccordinglybut did not amend the CLR 12 

### that it was carrying. 13 A 

### That is correct. 14 

### MR. EMERSON: No further 15 questions. 16 

### MR. HARPER: Mr. Emerson, if you 17 don't mind, I just have one or two questions 18 to follow up on that. 19 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. HARPER: 21 Q 

### I understand, Mr. Salamone, from 22 your testimonythat the CLR that is carriedby

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### 1 the flight crew will not reflect the change; 2 however, the loadmanifest shouldreflect that 3 change. Correct? 4 A 

### Yes, sir, that is correct. 5 

### MR. HARPER: Thank you. That is 6 all I have. 7 (Whereupon, the video deposition 8 was concluded.) 9 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED 10 TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBITS R-3-1, 11 

### THROUGH R-3-3 WERE MARKED FOR 12 IDENTIFICATION.) 13 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, at this 14 time we ask that Exhibits R-3-1, -2, and -3 be 15 received. 16 

### MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 17 Honor. I do note that the video deleted about 18 three paragraphs of the testimony but it is 19 accurately reflected in the transcript. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, so the 21 transcript is accurate? 22 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. 2 Mr. Harper, you can relate to 3 this. As they are going through these 4 calculations, I can still envision the fully 5 loaded, fully fueledA-10 taking off from KKMC 6 in 120 degree temperature and I watched it 7 slowly climb as it went over the horizon. I 8 swear it never go over 30 feet above the 9 ground. It had to because it was dumping its 10 load. 11 I would love to know what the 12 calculations were for that aircraft. 13 It is 20 minutes after three. 14 Let's take a ten-minutebreak and then we will 15 come back on and I am at your pleasure 16 counsel. 17 Thank you. We will go off the 18 record. 19 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 20 went off the record at 3:20p.m. 21 and went back on the record at 22 3:34p.m.)

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we are back 2 

### on the record. The deposition referred to 3 DepositionExhibit 1. The exhibit is actually 4 SkyWest Airlines Weight and Balance Analysis. 5 

### That is Deposition Exhibit 1. But in the 6 Court'srecords, that is actuallyRespondent's 7 

### 3-2. 8 

### MR. DWORKIN: That is correct, 9 Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I just want 11 to make sure the record is clear. 12 Mr. Dworkin? 13 MR. DWORKIN: Are Exhibits R-3-1, 14 -2, -3 received? 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me find my -- 16 

### (Pause.) 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: The Respondent's 18 3-1 is the typed

-- what do they call that, 19 Troy, the mini print? 20 

### COURT REPORTER: Min-D-Script? 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, miniprint. 22 

### Respondent's 3-1 is the miniprint

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1 

### of the deposition taken May 6, 2014. Mr. 2 Harper, you didn't have any objection, did 3 you, to that? 4 

### MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 3-2 6 is SkyWest Airlines weight and balance 7 analysis. My recollection is the FAA didn't 8 have an objection. 9 

### MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Respondent's 11 3-3 is a CD of the actual videotape. And Mr. 12 Harper, you pointed out that the

-- was it 13 that the video was missing? 14 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. The 15 video is missing a portion from 42 of the 16 transcript, roughly lines 5 to 25 or so. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay but it is in 18 the typed version? 19 

### MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So one way 21 or the other, we will get it in. 22 So, Respondents 1, 2 and 3 for

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### 1 identification are received in evidence as 2 Respondent's 3-1, -2, and -3. 3 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 4 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENI' 5 

### EXHIBITS 3-1 THROUGH 3-3 WERE 6 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I would then ask 8 Mr. Emerson if he would be kind enough to 9 provide the court reporter, myself, and Mr. 10 Harper a digital copy in both PDF and some 11 

### sort of Word. It is not Word it is like

-- 12 what is it ASCII or somethinglike that is the 13 format? Do you know what I am talking about? 14 

### COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, a 15 Word document is a Word document. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. I use 17

-- I just finished a hearing in Chicago and 18 the court reporter used

-- wait a second. 19 Well, so much for that theory. 20 

### Well anyway, some sort of word 21 format. Okay, what they used in the Chicago 22 case was an ASCII. I don't care, as long as

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-4433298 

### 1 it is some sort of a Word format. 2 

### MR. EMERSON: We will do it, Your 3 Honor. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 5 

### Mr. Dworkin? 6 

### MR. DWORKIN: Yes, Your Honor. I 7 would like to call Mr. Chris Brown. 8 Whereupon, 9 CHRISTOPHER C. BROWN 10 

### was calledas a witness by the Respondent, and 11 having been first duly sworn, assumed the 12 witness stand and was examined and testified 13 as follows: 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 15 

### State your full name for the 16 record and spell your first and last name. 17 

### THE WITNESS: Christopher C. 18 Brown, C-H-R-I-S-T-0-P-H-E-R, lastname Brown, 19 B-R-0-W-N. 20 

### DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 22 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

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1 A Good afternoon. 2 Q What is your occupation? 3 A I am currently the Director of 4 Aircraft Operations for SkyWest Airlines. 5 Q And as Director of Aircraft 6 Operations, what are yourprincipleduties and 7 responsibilities? 8 A My principle duties include 9 oversight, flight standards, fleetmanagement, 10 and program development, process development, 11 manuals, such as weight and balance, ground 12 deicing program, flight operations manual, 13 standard operations procedures, and such. 14 Q How long have you had that 15 position? 16 A In this position, about three 17 years. 18 Q And what was your prior position? 19 A Prior to that, I was a Director of 20 Flight Operations with the exact same duties. 21 The airline just grew. We expanded and split 22 the duties.

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1 Q 

### And how long were you Director of 2 Flight Operations? 3 A 

### About two years. 4 Q 

### So were you the Director of Flight 5 Operations when these cases arose? 6 A 

### I have been in this position for 7 about three years. 8 Q 

### So, it was probably when you were 9 

### making the transition? 10 A 

### Yes, sir. 11 Q 

### Okay. And how long have you been 12 with SkyWest? 13 A 

### About ten years. 14 Q 

### What was your initial employment 15 with SkyWest? 16 A 

### It was as a pilot an EMB-120 17 

### pilot. I then transitioned --I'm sorry. I 

### 18 was promoted to the Denver Chief Pilot and 19 then went to Saint George as the Manager of 20 Flight Operations, then the Directorof Flight 21 Operations, and then my current position. 22 Q 

### Okay, so I assume that you are a

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1 

### pilot. 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### What certificates and ratings do 4 you have? 5 A I 

### have an -- I 

### am also an AMP, so 6 I 

### have an AMP certificate. I 

### have an airline 7 

### transport certificatewith the CL-65. I 

### have 8 

### a flight instructor certificate, an advanced 9 

### flight instructor or an advanced ground 10 

### instructor certificate. 11 Q 

### And how long have you been in the 12 

### aviation business or the aviation activity? 13 A 

### About 30 

### years. I 

### did 20 

### years in 14 

### the Air Force as an aviationmechanic, mostly. 15 

### And then the last ten years with SkyWest. 16 Q 

### And as Director of Flight 17 

### Operations and Director of Aircraft 18 Operations, have you been involved in the 19 issues which are the subject of today's 20 hearing? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### What was your involvement?

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1 A I have been involved with looking 2 at our processes to reduce risk associated 3 with loading the airplanes accurately. I have 4 worked very closely with our Customer Service 5 Department and interfacing our processes for 6 the time the paperwork leaves the customer 7 service's hands to when it is received by the 8 pilots to help close gaps and reduce risk or 9 mitigate risk in those net process. 10 Q And in connection with your 11 position as director of flight operations and 12 directorof AircraftOperationsand the issues 13 that confront us in today's hearing, have you 14 had occasions to communicate with the FAA and 15 specifically with the FAA Certificate 16 Management Office at Salt Lake City? 17 A Absolutely. I think we have got a 18 very open, honest, and professional 19 relationship. So, we have been very 20 transparent in our communication back and 21 forth. 22 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your

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### 1 Honor? 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 3 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 4 Q 

### Mr. Brown, I am going to give you 5 copies of what has been marked as Exhibit R4 6. and Exhibits R-5-1 through R-5-7. 7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED 8 

### TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBITS R-4 AND 9 R-5-1 THROUGH R-5-7 WERE MARKED 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 11 A 

### Okay. 12 Q 

### Have you seen these documents 13 before? 14 A 

### Yes, I have. 15 Q 

### Okay. Let's go to Exhibit R-5-1. 16 A 

### Okay. 17 Q 

### What is that? 18 A 

### This was a letter to the CMO, to 19 Mr. Ayers, requesting consideration for a 20 proposed amendment to the approved weight and 21 balance program. Basically, that it would 22 include the addition of human factors,

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### 1 amendments to bring the proposal to a full 2 cycle or full circle that encompasses the SMS 3 practices and for it to enclose in the system, 4 the Safety Management System. 5 

### So, it is recognizing that human 6 factors play a key role ln the proper 7 

### completion and counting of bag proper 8 completion of the CLR and counting of bags. 9 And it offers a proposal. 10 Would you like me to go to the 11 proposal? 12 Q 

### Yes, please. 13 A 

### So, the proposal, essentially, was 14 recognizing that there are errors out there. 15 We are not making excuses for those errors. 16 We are just accepting that there is risk in 17 the environment that these ground agents are 18 

### working in. That there is risk that they 19 could miscount a bag or not put the right 20 number on a cargo load report that, in turn, 21 would lead to a load manifest that was in 22 error.

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### 1 And basically what it did, was it 2 was asking

-- it was applying a penalty, 3 almost a prepaid penalty to us to compensate 4 for those one, or two, or three miscounted 5 bags that could potentially happen on the 6 flight. That we would penalize our self up7 front so that if it happened, the airplane 8 would not be heavier than it is capable of 9 performing. 10 Q 

### So, basicallywhat you would do is 11 you would add some extra weight

-- 12 A 

### Right. 13 Q 

### -- to the basic operating of the 14 aircraft. 15 A 

### That is correct. 16 Q 

### And as a result, lessen the 17 payload. 18 A 

### That is correct. 19 Q 

### On your weight and balance program 20 amendment proposal, on page two, could you 21 read the third paragraph and the fourth 22 paragraph the third paragraph beginning

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### 1 with the SkyWest flight operations, comma, 2 customer service? 3 A 

### SkyWest Flight Operations, 4 Customer Service, and Safety Departments had 5 made great strides in the construction and 6 implementation of procedures designated to 7 mitigategross errors. However, the nature of 8 human factors makes the eliminationof errors 9 in their entirety in a possible undertaking. 10 

### In this request, SkyWest would 11 like to plan proactively for small errors in 12 cargo weight by implementing a self-imposed 13 

### limitation on the capabilities of this 14 aircraft. 15 The purpose of this proposal is is 16 not to allow for error but to account for the 17 apparent limitations of human performance and 18 ensure operational safety is heldparamount at 19 all times. 20 

### Specifically, this request 21 consists of artificially adding a specific 22 amount of weight of the basic operatingweight

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1 

### of each aircraft. In doing so, the 2 performance calculationswill be performed as 3 

### if the weight was physically onboard the 4 

### aircraft, even though, in most cases, the 5 

### weight would not be present

-- would not be 6 

### physically present. 7 

### The aircraft operating envelope 8 

### will be curtailed in such a way that for small 9 

### miscounts, the SkyWest weight and balance 10 

### program will assure that the aircraft will 11 

### always remain within the manufacturer's 12 

### operating envelope. 13 Q 

### And at the bottom of page two, you 14 

### actually have listed the penalties for each 15 

### aircraft type. Is that correct? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And what are those penalties? 18 A 

### For the EMB-120, 

### it is one 19 

### standard bag, 30 

### pounds; the CRJ-200, 

### it is 20 

### two standard bags or 60 

### pounds. For the CRJ21 700, 

### it is three standard bags and 90 

### pounds 22 

### and it is the same for the CRJ-900.

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1 Q 

### And could you go to page 6? Could 2 

### you read that paragraph? 3 

### A SkyWest elects to reiterate the 4 

### purpose of the program is not to allow for 5 

### error. It 

### would, however, to ensure that 6 operational safety is maintained in all small 7 miscount situations caused by limitations of 8 

### human performance. A similar program has 9 

### already been put in place by Delta Airlines. 10 

### The SkyWest philosophy has been 11 

### and remains safety first. And with that in 12 

### mind, it is our hope for a rapid consideration 13 

### and approval of this request. 14 Q 

### Now, on page 8' 

### you again 15 

### mentioned the Delta Airlines tolerance. 16 

### A On page 8? 17 Q 

### On page 8 of that exhibit. 18 

### A Yes. 19 Q 

### And in front of you is Exhibit R20 4. 

### Could take a look at that? 21 A 

### Okay. 22 Q 

### When you referred to the Delta

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### 1 Airlines procedure, is R-4 what you were 2 referring to? 3 A 

### Yes. 4 Q 

### And that, basically, allows a 600- 5 

### pound tolerance. Is that correct? 6 A 

### That is correct. 7 Q 

### So that if the number of 8 additional bags loaded is less than 20, there 9 

### would be no change in what would be the Delta 10 

### equivalent of a CLR. Is that correct? 11 A 

### That is correct, the WDR. That is 12 where the note that

-- they are not taking a 13 penalty. They are allowing a miscount up to 14 20 bags and not pre-penalizing the bough 15 weight, is what we applied for. 16 Q 

### Okay. So, in other words, you 17 were applying for something that is far more 18 restrictive than what Delta has. 19 A 

### That 1

### s right. 20 Q 

### Okay. Now, because it is ln 21 Delta 1

### s Flight Operations Manual, presumably, 22 it is FAA approved. Correct?

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1 A I don't know if their Flight 2 Operations Manual is approved. I am certain 3 it is FAA accepted. 4 Q Okay. And you attached to your 5 report a copy of the FAR on human factors 6 policy. Is that correct? That is FAR 9558A? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And was it SkyWest's belief that 9 these baggage miscounts were the result of the 10 interplay of human factors? 11 A Absolutely. 12 Q Go to Exhibit R-5-2. 13 A Okay. 14 Q This is a letter dated March 4, 15 2011. I trust this was a follow-up to your 16 previous letter, R-5-1. Is that correct? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q What precipitated that letter? 19 A If I remember correctly, we met 20 with the CMO and reviewed the proposal. And 21 this was, basically, a thank you letter. And 22 also to reiterate, it is not an attempt to

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### 1 subvert the regulation but rather to build 2 

### another layer of safety. And by accepting 3 this proposal, we would still be within the 4 

### regulatory guidance of 121.693, in our 5 opinion. 6 Q 

### And did the FAA formally respond 7 to either the March 4, 2001 letter or the 8 March 2, 2011 proposal? 9 A 

### Yes. This is

-- I 

### am looking at 10 R-5-3, the May 17th letter. Yes, the CMO did. 11 Q 

### And what did they do? 12 A 

### The CMO basically said through 13 collaborationwith the FAA Northwest Mountain 14 Regional Specialist and the FAA Headquarters 15 Group, they have identified the following 16 issue. And the issues, I am assuming with the 17 proposal, which basically cited that even if 18 we took thesemeasures, these safetymeasures, 19 we would still be producing a load manifest 20 that would not comply with the Regulation 21 121.693 because of the error. 22 They also went on to say that the

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433312 1 current FAA guidance does not address the 2 concept of baggage count or weight tolerances. 3 And that latitude

-- that is basically it. 4 And then they made a comment about addressing 5 the specific customer service ramp agent 6 procedures. 7 Q And that is Exhibit R-5-3, the FAA 8 letter dated May 17, 2011. Is that correct? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q So, essentially, what the FAA was 11 doing was declining to implement your 12 proposal

. 13 A At that time, yes, sir. 14 Q Was there some follow-up 15 communication? 16 A At some point in July 2012, July 17 18th, I wrote back a letter. And I think 18 there was some offline discussionbetween our 19 leadership and SkyWest and the FAA leadership 20 that precipitated this letter to basically 21 reengage the FAA with this proposal. And that 22 is what this letter did. It reengaged and

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1 also attached the proposal again for further 2 consideration. 3 Q And is that Exhibit R-5-4, your 4 letter dated July 18, 2012? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And

-- 7 A Maybe I need to clarify a little 8 bit more, too. The letter was actually two9 fold. One, requesting further consideration 10 but also the FAA had, at some point, asked for 11 some analysis to be done if we loaded an 12 aircraft outside of the manufacturer's 13 performance limitations. And we just simply 14 don't have that data. You know, we would have 15 to go to the manufacturer. But we have no way 16 of producing a manifest or performance data 17 outside of the normal operating conditions of 18 the aircraft. So, we were unable to provide 19 that information and we requested that the 20 proposal be revisited. 21 Q Okay, so to clarify things, 22 SkyWest wasn't asking for FAA permission to

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1 

### operate the aircraft outside of its 2 performance limitations? 3 A 

### No, sir. The FAA had asked us for 4 data what would it look like outside of the 5 performance limitations of the aircraft. We 6 

### simply don't have that. 7 Q 

### You don't have it. You don't do 8 it, so you don't have the data. 9 A 

### Right. 10 Q 

### What is Exhibit R-5-5? It looks 11 like an email from Tom Baird at FAA to you and 12 to Mark Childress. And I apologize but the 13 copy machine seems to have cut off the right 14 margin of the document. 15 A 

### I think I could make heads or 16 

### tails out of it. So, I think this was a 17 second request, since we couldn't provide 18 informationoutside of the aircraft envelope, 19 this was, okay, a request on behalf of the 20 Northwest Mountain Region, ANM-200 and 240, 21 working with our CMO to actually look at 22 worst-case within the enveloped scenarios.

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1 

### So, the FAA gave us, basically, 2 

### four scenarios. And they wanted us to 3 basically produce a dispatch release and a 4 

### passenger manifest. And they gave us 5 

### scenarios along with that, such as max 6 

### departure temperature, fuel from the first 7 

### scenario, but now three extra heavybags. And 8 

### then baggage and fuel was the

-- well, part of 9 

### it is cut off there. I 

### think it is second 10 scenario and 20 heavybags. And then finally, 11 another scenario that was given. 12 So, we produced the flight 13 releases and the manifests for each one of 14 those scenarios for the FAA. 15 Q 

### Okay and that was Exhibit R-6

-- 16 R-5-6? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### And it looks like that went to the 19 FAA on July 30, 2013? 20 A 

### That looks about right. Yes, sir. 21 Q 

### And what, if any, response did 22 that produce?

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1 A I know I got a response. I don't 2 see it here but there is a response from

-- 3 oh, here it is. I got a response from Tom 4 Baird at the SkyWest CMOs, basically thanking 5 us for the information. 6 Q Okay, they thanked you for the 7 information but, thus far, your proposal has 8 not yet been approved. 9 A So apparently, Rick Domingo at the 10 FAA was taking our recommendation to the 11 AdvisoryCircularCommitteebecause apparently 12 it was under review and they were going to 13 make or try to support this case or this 14 proposal. 15 Q But it has not yet been approved. 16 Is that right? 17 A No, Slr. 18 MR. DWORKIN: I will ask that 19 Exhibit R-4, and R-5-1 through R-5-7 be 20 received. 21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I object 22 to R-4 on relevance grounds. These were

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### 1 SkyWest flights. This is a Delta document. 2 It has no relevance to the operationof any of 3 the flights at issue today. 4 

### And R-5-5, I wouldn't object, 5 except under the rule of completeness, since 6 

### it is cut off. I think it would be in 7 everybody's interest to have a complete copy 8 of the document in the record, instead of a 9 

### cut off version, if we could arrange for that. 10 

### MR. DWORKIN: We will substitute a 11 full version. 12 

### MR. HARPER: In that case, I have 13 no objection. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's do this. 15 The Court is going to withhold-- Respondent's 16 R-5-4 for identificationwill be receivedinto 17 evidence. It will go to weight, Mr. Harper, 18 your objection. 19 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 20 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 21 

### EXHIBIT R-5-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 22 

### EVIDENCE.)

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### 318

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And I am going to 2 withhold ruling on 5-5 and allow you to 3 substitute a copy that doesn't have the right 4 side chopped off. 5 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 6 

### BY MR. DWORKIN: 7 Q 

### Mr. Brown, were you present at the 8 hearing this morning? 9 A 

### Yes, sir. 10 Q 

### And there was some testimony about 11 a load manifest that was retrieved from the 12 trash. 13 A 

### Yes, I remember. 14 Q 

### Okay. And does that have any 15 significance for you, that testimony? 16 A 

### No, not really. If it was in the 17 trash, that is probablywhere it belonged. It 18 wasn't going to be used for that flight or it 19 wouldn't be in the trash. 20 The ACARS, when that information 21 is sent off for takeoff information and it is 22 retrieved, that load manifest, it is housed

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### 1 electronicallyin the ACARS and it is carried 2 electronically to the destination. 3 A few crews will print that actual 4 manifest because it has the V speeds or the 5 takeoff informationon it. They can print it, 6 put it on the yoke and it is easy to 7 reference. But there is multiple times, such 8 as passenger movement or late bags that you 9 might request two or three or four manifests 10 before you have your final manifest. So, you 11 could have several printed copies that have 12 gone in the trash that are, to me, quite 13 irrelevant. 14 Q 

### So, simply based upon the 15 testimony that a load manifest was retrieved 16 by the trash, as you sit here today, you don't 17 know if that was the actual load manifest or 18 if that was a document that was supersededby 19 a later load manifest. Is that correct? 20 A 

### The only way you would know is to 21 pull the 90-day manifest record from Saint 22 George in that required database and compare

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### 1 it, if you wanted to compare it and see if it 2 was a legitimate manifest. But I would not 3 considera manifest a legitimateone if it was 4 ln the trash. 5 Q 

### Because they are supposed to be 6 

### retained for 90 

### days. Is that correct? 7 A 

### That's right. 8 

### MR. DWORKIN: Okay, no further 9 

### questions. Thank you. 10 

### CROSS-EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. HARPER: 12 Q 

### Mr. Brown, R-4 is an excerpt from 13 

### the Delta Flight Operations Manual. This 14 isn't the entire Flight Operations Manual, is 15 it? 16 

### A No, sir. 17 Q It 

### is not the entire Weight and 18 

### Balance Manual for Delta. 19 

### A No, sir. 20 Q 

### So, there may be other information 21 

### in that manual that might be relevant to what 22 has been offered for that we just don't know

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·4433321 1 about. 2 A Certainly. 3 Q Mr. Brown, you testified that you 4 are a CFI. Have you taught any students? 5 A About 1600 hours. 6 Q Any student pilots working on 7 training for a private pilot certificate? 8 A Certainly. 9 Q If you had a student pilot come to 10 you and wanted to do a solo flight and he told 11 you he hadn't calculated weight and balance 12 for the flight, wouldyou endorse that flight? 13 A That he had not? 14 Q That he had not done the weight 15 and balance information for that flight. 16 Would you endorse him to perform that flight? 17 A No. 18 Q Mr. Brown, could you describe to 19 me an example of a violation that was not the 20 result of a human error; a violation where 21 humans had absolutely nothing to do with it, 22 the violation just occurred?

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Objection. It is 2 vague, ambiguous, uncertain, and beyond the 3 scope of the direct examination. 4 MR. HARPER: Well, Your Honor, 5 they have testified on direct that these 6 violations are the result of human errors. I 7 am just trying to find out are there any 8 violations that are not the result of human 9 error. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would say, 12 that there could be a printer malfunction, as 13 it is printing the flight release. I have 14 even seen an aircraft where the PDC, the pre15 departure clearance that is printed off the 16 ACARS printer and the ink is running low, type 17 thing. And the zero looks like an 0. So, the 18 flight crew is flying to a space or a point in 19 space thinking they are on the right 20 coordinates when they are not, until ATC 21 queries them. And that was a printer 22 malfunction.

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### 1 The same thing could happen with a 2 clearance. 3 Q 

### So, in that example, the pilots, 4 in other words, made an error in flying to the 5 wrong location, based on data they were 6 provided on an unclear that they could have 7 printed out another copy of, had they paid 8 attention in the first place. 9 A 

### It certainly could just be old 10 technology such as a dot matrix printer that 11 we use all over the system. 12 Q 

### All right. Thank you very much, 13 Mr. Brown. 14 Now, you have testified regarding 15 Respondents 1 through 7, which was the back 16 and forth over SkyWest'sproposal to allow for 17 an air tolerance increasedthe basic operating 18 weight of the aircraft. Would you not agree 19 that the fact that in 2012, the FAA requested 20 additional information with some indication 21 that the FAA is actually giving some serious 22 thought to your proposal?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433324

1 A 

### I would agree, yes. 2 Q 

### However, that proposal has not 3 been accepted and incorporated into SkyWest's 4 

### weight and balance program at this point in 5 

### time. 6 A 

### That is right. 7 Q 

### And it was not part of SkyWest's 8 

### weight and balanceprogramat the time many of 9 

### these flights took place. 10 A 

### That is right. 11 

### MR. HARPER: No further questions. 12 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 14 

### Honor. We ask that the witness be excused. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I 

### will 16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 17 with anybody prior to the conclusim of the 18 

### hearing. You are excused. It is up to 19 counsel whether you return to Respondent's 20 table or are excused from the court. 21 

### MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. Thank you. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433325

1 

### MR. DWORKIN: I would ask that 2 Exhibits

-- I guess they have already been 3 received. Okay. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 5 

### MR. DWORKIN: Exhibits R-4 and R6 5-1 through R-5-7, I guess, according to my 7 notes, have been receivedbut we are going to 8 substitute R-5-5. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: R-4 is the Delta 10 Flight Operations Manual. That is marked for 11 identification but I don't recall that being 12 offered at this point. 13 

### MR. DWORKIN: Yes, I did offer it. 14 MR. HARPER: And I object on 15 relevancy grounds, since these are SkyWest 16 flights at issue, not Delta flights. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, right. I 

### 18 understand. 19 Respondent's 4 for identification 20 will be received in evidence. It goes to 21 weight. I am not sure what relevance it has 22 but it certainly can have a weight. I think,

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433326 1 in the context of the testimony it is 2 admissible but not much beyond that. 3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 4 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENI 5 EXHIBIT R-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 6 EVIDENCE.) 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's R-5-1 8 for identification is a 26-page exhibit which 9 appears to be a compilationof correspondence. 10 I notice on the Court's copies that there are 11 some areas that are gray and some that are 12 not. The Court is going to ignore anything 13 that is gray. I assume that is yellow 14 highlighting but that doesn't influence the 15 Court. 16 Respondent's 5-l is the 26-page 17 exhibit. The Court will admit that. 18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 20 EXHIBIT R-5-1 WAS RECEIVED INTO 21 EVIDENCE.) 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-2

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433327 

### 1 for identificationis a two-page letter March 2 4, 2011 to Mr. Andrews over the signature of 3 

### a Mr. Brown. That was offered. Is that 4 

### correct, Mr. Dworkin? 5 

### MR. DWORKIN: yes. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And did you have 7 an objection, Mr. Harper? 8 

### MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 5-2 for 10 identificationwill be received into evidence 11 as Respondent's 5-2. 12 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 13 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 14 

### EXHIBIT R-5-2 WAS RECEIVED INTO 15 EVIDENCE.) 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-3 17 is a letter to Mr. Brown over the signatureof 18 Mr. Ayers dated May 17, 2011. That has been 19 offered. Any objection to that, Mr. Harper? 20 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: That will be 22 received into evidence.

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-4433328

1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 2 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 3 EXHIBIT R-5-3 WAS RECEIVED INTO 4 EVIDENCE.) 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-4 6 is dated July 18, 2012 to Mr. Ayers over the 7 signature of Mr. Brown. Again, that will be 8 received for the reasons stated. 9 Respondent's 5-5, the court is 10 going to withhold. And that is all the 11 farther we have gotten. Is that correct, Mr. 12 Dworkin? 13 MR. DWORKIN: No, I have also 14 offered 5-6 and 5-7. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, 5-6, I am 16 still paginating. It is a thick exhibit. 17 Respondent's 5-7 is an email from 18 Mr. Baird to Mr. Brown dated August 8, 2012. 19 Mr. Harper, do you have any objection to 20 Respondent's 5-7? 21 MR. HARPER: No objection to 22 either R-5-6 orR-5-7.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433329

1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 2 

### Then, 5-7 for identification is 3 received into evidence and 5-6 will be 4 received into evidence. 5 

### (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 6 

### PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 7 

### EXHIBIT R-5-6 AND R-5-7 WERE 8 

### RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: It appears I am 10 just going to caption 5-6 as WD scenarios, 11 which is the banner on the top of the first 12 page. They have no relevance to contents but 13 that is the way I am going to identify the 14 exhibit. 15 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. And 5-5 is 16 conditionally received, pending 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, when you 18 bring the original, then we will worry about 19 it. 20 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Very well, 21 Your Honor. 22 

### Since it is ten after four, I

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433330 1 think this would probably be a logical break 2 point. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then what 4 we will do is we will go off the record for 5 the evening. 6 I am going to admonish all 7 witnesses that they are again instructed not 8 to discuss your testimony with anybody until 9 the hearing is concluded. 10 We will go off the record and we 11 will reconvene again at 0900. 12 (Whereupon, at 4:11 p.m., the 13 foregoinghearing was adjourned to 14 reconvene at 9:00a.m. on Tuesday, 15 May 2

## o, 2

## o14.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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### -366 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines

Before: US DOT/FAA

Date: 05-19-14

Place: Salt Lake City, UT

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202) 234-4433 Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com