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OVERCOMING BARRIERS TO MORE EFFICIENT AND 

EFFECTIVE VA STAFFING 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

FRIDAY, MAY 15, 2015 

Serial No. 114–21 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 


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COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 

JEFF MILLER, Florida, Chairman 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida, Vice-Chairman 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee 

DAN BENISHEK, Michigan 

TIM HUELSKAMP, Kansas 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana 

RALPH ABRAHAM, Louisiana 

LEE ZELDIN, New York 

RYAN COSTELLO, Pennsylvania 

AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American 

Samoa 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

CORRINE BROWN, Florida, Ranking 

Minority Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

RAUL RUIZ, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

KATHLEEN RICE, New York 

TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota 

JERRY MCNERNEY, California 

JON TOWERS, Staff Director 

DON PHILLIPS, Democratic Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH 

DAN BENISHEK, Michigan, Chairman 

GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida 

DAVID P. ROE, Tennessee 

TIM HUELSKAMP, Kansas 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

BRAD R. WENSTRUP, Ohio 

RALPH ABRAHAM, Louisiana 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California, Ranking 

Member 

MARK TAKANO, California 

RAUL RUIZ, California 

ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire 

BETO O’ROURKE, Texas 

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public hearing records 

of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs are also published in electronic form. The printed 

hearing record remains the official version. Because electronic submissions are used to 

prepare both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process of converting 

between various electronic formats may introduce unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the current publication process and should diminish as the process 

is further refined. 


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C O N T E N T S 

Friday, May 15, 2015 

Page 

Overcoming Barriers to More Efficient and Effective VA Staffing ...................... 1 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Dan Benishek, Chairman ........................................................................................ 1 

Julia Brownley, Ranking Member .......................................................................... 2 

WITNESSES 

Joan Clifford MSM, RN FACHE, Immediate Past President, Nurses Organization of Veterans Affairs ....................................................................................... 4 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 37 

Samuel V. Spagnolo M.D., President, National Association of Veterans Affairs 

Physicians and Dentists ...................................................................................... 5 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 39 

Jeff L. Morris J.D., Director of Communications and External Affairs, American Board of Physician Specialties .................................................................... 8 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 47 

Rubina DaSilva PA—C, President, Veterans Affairs Physician Assistant Association .................................................................................................................... 10 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 54 

Nichol L. Salvo DPM, Member and Employee, American Pediatric Medical 

Association ............................................................................................................ 12 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 63 

Thomas Lynch M.D., Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Health for Clinical Operations, VHA, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs ........................... 27 

Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 67 

Accompanied by: 

Elias Hernandez, Deputy Chief Officer for Workforce Management 

and Consulting, VHA, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs 

And 

Donna Gage Ph.D., RN, NE-BC, Chief Officer of Nursing VHA, U.S. 

Department of Veterans Affairs 

STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD 

American Counseling Association .......................................................................... 77 

American Federation Government Employees ...................................................... 80 

The American Legion .............................................................................................. 93 

Partnership for Public Service ................................................................................ 98 

Merritt Hawkins ...................................................................................................... 108 


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OVERCOMING BARRIERS TO MORE 

EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE VA STAFFING 

Friday, May 15, 2015 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:09 a.m., in 

Room 334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Dan Benishek 

[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Benishek, Roe, Coffman, Wenstrup, 

Abraham, Brownley, Takano, Kuster, and O’Rourke. 

Also Present: Representative Costello. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN DAN BENISHEK 

Dr. BENISHEK. The subcommittee will come to order. 

Before we begin, I would like to ask unanimous consent for my 

friend, colleague, and member of the full committee, Congressman 

Ryan Costello from Pennsylvania, to sit on the dais, participate in 

today’s proceedings. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

Thank you for joining us today for today’s subcommittee hearing, 

‘‘Overcoming Barriers to More Efficient and Effective VA Staffing.’’ 

As a physician who worked fee-for-service at the Iron Mountain 

VA, Department of Veteran Affairs, Medical Center for about 20 

years, I know firsthand how rewarding it can be to take care of veterans at the VA. And having the privilege of caring for veterans on 

a daily basis was really wonderful for me. 

Regardless of how fulfilling VA employment often is, the Department’s ability to effectively and efficiently recruit and retain qualified medical professionals to treat veterans is seriously fractured. 

For example, in my district, the Sault Ste. Marie CommunityBased Outpatient Clinic in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, has not had 

a physician on staff for at least 2 years. 

VA has attributed that to the difficulty of recruiting physicians 

in rural areas. And while I understand that difficulty, I think VA’s 

overly bureaucratic hiring process is also a significant factor in its 

inability to recruit a physician for multiple years running. 

The Iron Mountain VAMC, the Sault Ste. Marie CBOC’s parent 

facility, was unable to post the opening for a physician directly. Instead, all job postings under Iron Mountain’s purview are filtered 

through a human resource office in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, several 

hours away in another State. In my understanding, all VISN 12 facility job postings are run through this one office in Milwaukee. 


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What is more, despite repeated assurances by VA officials the 

Department was actively recruiting for a physician in the Sault— 

in Sault Ste. Marie—we call it ‘‘the Sault’’ in Michigan—I have yet 

to see a single advertisement for that position besides a blurb on 

the hospital’s Web site, leaving me to wonder whether the VA 

knows what effective recruiting is supposed to look like. 

As important as effective recruitment is, effective retention of existing employees is also critical. But according to the 2014 Best 

Places to Work survey published by the Partnership for Public 

Service, the number of VA employees resigning or retiring has 

risen every year since 2009. And it is not hard to see why: The survey results rank VA 18 of 19 large agencies overall, 18 of 19 in effective leadership, 19 of the 19 in pay, with the Department’s overall score last year being the lowest VA has received since the report 

was first published in 2003. 

When a VA medical center is improperly staffed and when a 

qualified candidate chooses to look elsewhere for work or when an 

existing provider makes the decision to leave the VA, it is our veterans that lose out. The growing physician shortage is causing the 

healthcare marketplace to become more and more competitive, with 

the Association of American Medical Colleges projecting a 91,000- 

physician shortfall by 2025. 

If the VA is going to keep pace with the private sector in recruiting and retaining the high-quality providers that our veterans deserve, immediate action must be taken to improve retention of existing staff and ensure that qualified candidates for new or vacant 

positions are quickly identified, recruited, hired, and brought 

aboard. 

Critical to that and to all of VA’s plans regarding the delivery 

and quality of care is making sure that those on the front lines providing direct patient care are not only involved but leading the efforts to make the VA healthcare system stronger. 

To that end, I am proud to have representatives from the National Association of VA Physicians and Dentists, the VA Physician 

Assistant Association, and the Nurses Organization of VA on our 

first panel of witnesses today. 

The input you as well as the rest of our witnesses will provide 

about the daily reality you and your members face at VA facilities 

across the country every day is invaluable. I thank you and all of 

our witnesses for being here this morning. 

And I now yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. Brownley, for any 

opening statement she may have. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER JULIA 

BROWNLEY 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 

calling this hearing today on VA staffing. 

Section 301 of the Veterans Access, Care, and Accountability Act, 

signed by the President last year, mandated the VA shall submit 

a report assessing the staffing of each medical facility of the Department. This hearing will investigate this report and how the VA 

is doing in evaluating the staffing needs around the country in respect to the care of our veterans. 


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In its report, the VA cites the need for an additional approximately 10,000 full-time employees to supplement the approximate 

180,000 employees that currently work in veterans’ healthcare. I 

am looking to find out from the VA how both numbers were arrived 

at. 

One issue is that last year Secretary McDonald quoted a number 

of 28,000 positions needed to fully staff VA healthcare. Now we are 

down to just over 10,000. The staffing report concurs with the inspector general’s report listing the top five occupations that are 

most critical: medical officer, nurse, physician assistant, physical 

therapist, and psychologist. 

One occupation not listed because it is not technically healthcarerelated is human resources. These are the people that hire and fire 

and generally keep a facility fully staffed. I am interested in hearing how the VHA will be streamlining its hiring process and getting more people to work in a reasonable timeframe to treat our 

veterans. 

Veterans in my congressional district face barriers to accessing 

care due to VA staffing issues. Ventura County is home to over 

47,000 veterans, and our local CBOC, which provides primary care 

and mental health services, struggles with staff retention. There 

are high turnover rates for physicians and medical support staff. 

The CBOC’s primary-care team is down to just one physician, 

two nurse practitioners, and one physician assistant. In addition, 

our county veteran service officer is concerned that veterans are 

not using important wraparound services because there is no primary-care social worker on staff. Over the past 5 years, the number of veterans seeking mental healthcare at the CBOC has doubled. And the VA has been working hard to meet the growing demand, but we still seem to be in a place where we are not fully 

staffed. 

I know that staffing issues facing Ventura County are ones that 

can be found across the VA system. I look forward to hearing how 

VA is using the funding provided in the Choice Act to increase the 

Department’s workforce and high-demand occupations so that the 

Nation’s veterans have timely access to the high-quality professional care that the VA is known for. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my 

time. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Brownley. 

Joining on our first panel is Joan Clifford, immediate past president of the Nurses Organization of Veterans Affairs; Dr. Samuel 

Spagnolo, the president of the National Association of Veterans Affairs Physicians and Dentists; Rubina DaSilva, the president of the 

Veterans Affairs Physician Assistant Association; Jeff Morris, the 

director of communications and external affairs for the American 

Board of Physician Specialties; and Dr. Nichol Salvo, member and 

employee of the American Podiatric Medical Association. 

Ms. Clifford, we will begin with you. Please proceed with your 

testimony. 

We allow everybody 5 minutes. So there should be a little light 

there that when it goes red that means you are up. Thanks. 


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STATEMENT OF JOAN CLIFFORD, MSM, R.N., FACHE 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Thank you. 

Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley, and members 

of the subcommittee, on behalf of the nearly 3,000 members of the 

Nurses Organization of Veterans Affairs, NOVA, I would like to 

thank you for the opportunity to testify on today’s important and 

timely subject, VA staffing. 

As the Department of Veterans Affairs undergoes systemwide reorganization, to include the many challenges of implementing the 

Veterans Access, Choice, and Accountability Act, staffing must be 

at the forefront of its evaluation. 

I am Joan Clifford, deputy nurse executive at the VA Boston 

Healthcare System, and I am here today as the immediate past 

president of NOVA. NOVA is a professional organization for registered nurses employed by VA. NOVA’s focus is professional 

issues. 

NOVA is uniquely qualified to share its views on the ability of 

VA to efficiently and effectively recruit, onboard, and retain qualified healthcare professionals to treat our veteran patients. As VA 

nurses, we are in the medical centers, community-based outpatient 

clinics, and at the bedside every day. 

We have identified retention and recruitment of healthcare professionals as a critically important issue in providing the best care 

anywhere for our veterans, and we would like to offer the following 

observations. 

NOVA believes that the underlying issues reside in the lack of 

a strong infrastructure for human resources, insufficient nursing 

education opportunities, and the complex application system, 

namely USAJOBS, that VHA uses for hiring staff. 

VHA is facing a shortage of corporate experience and insufficient 

HR staffing to support the multiple priorities required for hiring 

healthcare professionals. The complex hiring process, with systems 

that do not interface, lead to extended waits for job offers. At times, 

this results in candidates accepting non-VA jobs and puts VA back 

in the hunt for qualified candidates. 

Limited knowledge of direct hiring process for registered nurses, 

resulting in unnecessary recruitment delays, and VA processes and 

policies for obtaining recruitment and retaining incentives contribute to delays in hiring personnel. Reclassification and downgrades of some occupations, such as surgical technicians, who are 

brought in at the GS–7 level and have recently been downgraded 

to GS–5, are making it impossible to competitively retain and recruit. A lack of knowledge on how to maximize the locality pay law 

has resulted in inconsistent application of the law, an obstacle to 

hiring and retention. 

NOVA asks that the ceiling on nurse pay be increased to prevent 

compression between the grades in order to remain competitive. 

Ensuring an infrastructure to sustain programs that produce 

nursing graduates who honor and respect veterans’ programs is 

vital. The Office of Academic Affairs has supported a wonderful 

R.N. residency program across some VAs, but funds are limited, potentially impacting the recruitment of future hires who flock to 

these programs. 


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The nurse practitioner residency program is currently a pilot and 

will require continued funding to pay for resident stipends and 

educational infrastructure. NOVA believes it is a good investment, 

as hiring nurse practitioners will increase access and enable additional services to veterans needing care nationwide. 

Ongoing support for tuition reimbursement and loan forgiveness 

programs to help nurses defray the cost of education if they work 

for VHA and support for VA nursing academic partnerships is 

needed. 

An area of concern is the use of advanced practice nurses, which 

at this time is subject to State laws in which the facility is located. 

VHA is advocating full practice authority, which would result in all 

advanced-practice-registered nurses employed by the VA to be able 

to function to the full extent of their education, licensure, and 

training, regardless of the State in which they live and work. 

Legislation has been introduced, H.R. 1247, the Improving Veterans Access to Care Act of 2015, which is the model already practiced by the Department of Defense, Indian Health Service, and 

Public Health Service systems. NOVA, together with other national 

nursing organizations, are calling on Congress to support this legislation, which would begin to address critical needs within VA facilities by improving wait times and access of care to all veterans. 

VA employs over 90,000 nursing personnel, which is about a 

third of its healthcare workforce. NOVA believes that there is no 

greater time to have representatives from the Office of Nursing 

Services at the table as VA reorganizes the way it provides care 

and services to America’s heroes. 

Improvements and careful review of the process of downgrades 

across VA, increased training and utilization of the locality pay 

law, revising the cap on the R.N. pay schedule to eliminate compression, as well as establishing a more user-friendly application 

process and supporting human resource offices across the Nation, 

will go a long way towards correcting the challenges VA faces with 

staffing. 

NOVA once again thanks you for this opportunity to testify, and 

I would be pleased to answer any questions from the committee. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MS. JOAN CLIFFORD APPEARS IN

THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you very much, Ms. Clifford. 

Dr. Spagnolo, please go ahead. 

STATEMENT OF SAMUEL V. SPAGNOLO, M.D. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Mr. Chairman, we have submitted a written testimony, and I would ask that you have that entered into the record. 

And I will try to keep my few comments here fairly brief. 

Thank you for having us here, and thank the distinguished members of the committee for having us here. We certainly appreciate 

it. 

I am here as a practicing physician, with more than four decades 

with the VA. And I am here also as the president of the National 

Association of VA Physicians and Dentists, usually referred to as 

NAVAPD. I might add, too, that I am a veteran, having served for 

2 years of Active Duty in the United States Public Health Service. 


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The National Association of VA Physicians and Dentists is a 

501(c)(6) nonprofit organization that is dedicated to improving the 

quality of patient care in the VA healthcare system and ensuring 

the doctor-patient relationship is maintained and strengthened. I 

appear today in pursuit of that purpose. 

This year is NAVAPD’s celebration of its 40th year. NAVAPD believes that a key means of enhancing care of veterans is by employing the best physicians and dentists. NAVAPD believes it is essential for physicians to be involved in decisions regarding delivery 

and quality of healthcare. 

During my many years with the VA, I have witnessed firsthand 

many changes in the VA—some good, some not so good. I have had 

the opportunity to meet nearly all the Secretaries of the VA over 

the last 40 years. I got to know several of them very well, and a 

few I have seen as patients. I believe all of these individuals have 

been good people and all of the best intentions. I am sure Secretary 

McDonald, who I have also met with, also has good intentions. 

Notwithstanding the good intentions of these good people, however, the role of the physician within the system as a leader of 

medical care has greatly diminished over this same period. Today, 

most physicians and dentists feel like their opinions are neither 

helpful nor requested. At many centers, physicians and dentists are 

no longer even considered professionals but referred to simply as 

‘‘workers.’’ These observations come from our members—VA docs 

and dentists, men and women who want to help improve veterans’ 

care. 

In the late 1960s and 1970s, nearly all VA medical centers were 

led by directors who were physicians. Today, very few medical centers have physician directors. The position now called the VA 

Under Secretary of Health was known as the chief medical director. At that time, there was a direct line from the chief of staff at 

the medical center to the chief medical director. Issues of delivery 

and quality of medical care were raised and addressed by medical 

professionals. Today, chiefs of staff report to a clinical specialist at 

the VISN centers. 

In more recent times, there has also been a strong movement to 

eliminate the need even to have a physician in the role of Under 

Secretary of Health. I ask, would it be wise or even possible to run 

the Defense Department without generals and admirals in leadership positions? We are not saying there is no role for nonphysicians 

in the administration of hospitals or medical care. We are saying, 

however, that medical judgment should be based on years of education and patient care. 

Physicians are being loaded with additional duties more appropriate for nonphysicians, such as typing, filing letters, followup 

calls, patient reception, and preparation. Similarly, it is not costsaving nor efficient to have physicians routinely escort patients 

from waiting rooms to exam rooms and having them help the patients get undressed. 

There is a growing trend to add nonphysicians, and there is a 

growing concern that a veteran may never be seen or treated by 

a physician while in the VA healthcare system. Veterans are seen 

by non-M.D. doctors without ever realizing they have not seen a 


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medical doctor. We believe this is dangerous for patients and their 

families, and it may also raise some ethical issues. 

The VA is currently considering a change in its nursing handbook. Under the proposed handbook, there will no longer be any 

physician oversight for the process of sedation and providing operating room anesthesia by certified registered nurse anesthetist. The 

proposed change provides no guarantee this will provide safer patient care. Additionally, LPNs with little or no psychiatric experience are taking the place of psychiatrists during intake counseling 

and assessments in some psychiatric departments. 

Taking care of patients and providing excellent care has a lot to 

do with providing the basics and using a lot of common sense. For 

example, when patients are asked what is important to them, you 

will hear simple, straightforward, commonsense questions, such as: 

Will I be admitted quickly? Is the room clean? Is there a bathroom 

in the room? Does the call button work, and does someone answer 

and arrive quickly when I need them? Does everyone speak so I 

can understand them? If I need help to eat, will there be somebody 

there to help me? Do my doctors and nurses spend time explaining 

things so that I can understand what is happening? Unfortunately, 

patient surveys indicate that none of the above questions are being 

answered very well in the VA. 

Although the crisis last year in VA did focus on access to care, 

this is but one small piece of the total package. Getting timely initial access is of little value if it takes months to get your hip replaced or have a lung cancer removed or a colonoscopy screening 

because there may not be sufficient physicians or adequate access 

to the operating room. Timely access must be assured throughout 

the course of care, not just on the initial visit. 

VA is referred to as a healthcare system. At best, it is a collective 

of hospitals and other medical facilities operating under a common 

umbrella. The operational standards at every facility appear to be 

different. There must be unification and simplification of process 

across the organization to achieve an order of efficiency and common outcomes. When you have seen one VA, you have only seen 

one VA. 

In this regard, we have seen no recent operational structural 

changes that would increase the efficiency of physicians and dentists in the VA. Changes announced by the current Secretary are 

not being consistently implemented in local facilities, perhaps because the facility leaders have not understood that these changes 

are mandatory—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. Doctor, you will have to clean up your time here. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I am—one sentence left. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Okay. Good. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Hearings like this are important and helpful, and 

the VA appreciates the—NAVAPD appreciates the opportunity to 

be here today. We want to help fix the medical care problem. The 

unfortunate truth, however: It is far easier to throw money at the 

situation than it is to fix it. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. SPAGNOLO APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Doctor. 


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Mr. Morris, you have 5 minutes to come across with your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF JEFF L. MORRIS, J.D. 

Mr. MORRIS. Chairman Benishek, Ranking Minority Member 

Brownley, and distinguished members of the Health Subcommittee, 

the American Board of Physician Specialities thanks you for the examining the issue of overcoming barriers to more efficient and effective VA staffing. 

Veterans should never be shortchanged in their medical care. Recruiting qualified and highly skilled physicians to work within the 

VA health system is needed now more than ever. What many do 

not know is that physician politics, along with existing discriminatory and monopolization practices of the American Board of Medical Specialties, are keeping excellent physicians out. What is indefensible is that they are not denied because of their training, education, or experience. These highly skilled physicians are being denied employment solely based on their choice in board certification. 

Dr. Robert M. Weinacker is a prime example of this very discrimination going on within the Administration. Dr. Weinacker, a 

veteran himself, was a Green Beret and former member of Special 

Forces. He was even handpicked as battalion surgeon to lead the 

medical treatment of 400 of our Special Forces. He wanted to work 

at the VA. He applied for seven positions and was never even 

called back for an interview. 

This was not due to his training. Dr. Weinacker, a graduate of 

the University of Alabama Medical School, is residency-trained in 

radiation oncology and is a fellow of the American Academy of Radiology. In addition to his medical profession, Dr. Weinacker is also 

an attorney in hospital administration, with a focus on waste, 

fraud, and abuse. 

The only barrier that prevented Dr. Weinacker from working at 

a VA was his choice in certification. He chose—each position required ABMS certification only. Dr. Weinacker chose ABPS, and, 

because of that choice, he is consistently denied the opportunity to 

take care of his fellow veterans. 

We are here to ask the VA to cease their discrimination of ABPS 

physicians such as Dr. Weinacker. Behind this discrimination is 

the fact that most people do not understand what board certification is. Board certification is a choice and an indicator that a 

practitioner has demonstrated their mastery of the core body of 

knowledge and skills in their chosen specialty. 

Currently, there are three recognized multispecialty certifying 

bodies: the American Board of Medical Specialities, the American 

Osteopathic Association, and the American Board of Physician Specialties. ABMS, the largest of the 3, is made up of 24 individual 

specialty bodies, making many believe that they are all different 

entities. This structure has hidden the monopoly that ABMS has 

been establishing, making many believe they are the only one. 

ABMS is not the only higher standard board. There are others 

that meet or exceed their standards. In fact, ABPS is the only one 

of the three to have received an independent affirmation of the 

high standards of its exams through an exhaustive review process 

performed by Castle Worldwide. 


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Since 1994, ABPS has approached the Department regarding 

these discriminatory staffing issues creating barriers to hiring 

skilled physicians. Each time, the Administration would protect the 

ongoing monopoly and respond that they had no plans to recognize 

anyone else. 

In 2011, ABPS returned to the Administration to stop the discrimination and further explain that we were a part of the current 

standard of certification. They again refused to see the issues. 

All these discussions were led by former Under Secretaries of 

Health Drs. Petzel and Jesse, along with Dr. Karen Sanders—all 

board-certified by the very same organization keeping ABPS and 

other highly skilled physicians out. 

What is most confusing is that, under the GI bill, ABPS has been 

reviewed and approved by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 

Yet they stated to us that it does not mean they have to accept it. 

The VA reimburses for ABPS board certification but will not recognize it for hiring or promotion. 

The Administration also stated to us that board certification is 

not a requirement, that it is left to the discretion of the local VA. 

However, this has not been the case. According to USAJOBS, there 

are over 1,000 open physician positions. Most blatantly discriminate by requiring ABMS/AOA only, limiting the ability to fill muchneeded positions. 

Only a few hospitals recognize ABPS and have hired them to fill 

their staffing needs. The Kansas City VA is a good example of this, 

providing a higher level of care. Some also have hired ABPS physicians, but ABMS continuously creates a hostile work environment 

and openly discriminates against them. Many of those physicians 

are not here today because they feared retribution or loss of their 

jobs. 

ABPA wishes to contribute to solutions to ensure that veterans 

receive the highest quality of care. A directive from the Office of 

the Secretary of the VA needs to be in place that creates antidiscrimination policy, that clearly defines board certification and 

goes beyond just the acceptance of ABMS/AOA. Job listings should 

no longer allow for one specific board over another. 

We also ask that a quarterly reporting structure be developed. 

Whereas VA healthcare institutions report on applications received, 

the denial and hiring of physicians and all applicant boards be 

identified, having identified individuals accountable for this oversight—all done in a similar manner as corporations are required to 

identify and ensure minority hiring. This will allow for a transparent credentialing process, and local VA medical centers will be 

held accountable. 

Thank you again for this opportunity. The ABPS looks forward 

to working with you to improve hiring practices and end the discrimination. Most importantly, our veterans’ health, safety, and 

care must be placed before physician politics and the egos of a few. 

It is what they deserve. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF MR. JEFF MORRIS APPEARS IN THE

APPENDIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Mr. Morris. 

Ms. DaSilva, you are up next. 


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STATEMENT OF RUBINA DaSILVA, PA–C 

Ms. DASILVA. Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley, 

and other members of the Health Veterans’ Affairs Subcommittee, 

on behalf of the entire Veterans Affairs Physician Assistant Association, we really appreciate the invitation to provide this testimony before you today. 

The PA profession has a very special and unique relationship 

with veterans. The PA profession came into existence in the 1960s 

due to the shortage of primary-care physicians in the United 

States. The first graduates of the Duke University program in 1967 

were former Navy hospital corpsmen. 

The VA was the first employer of the PAs and, to this day, is still 

the single largest employer of PAs in the country. Currently, there 

are 2,020 PAs working in the VA system. These PAs provide costeffective, high-quality healthcare, working in hundreds of VA medical centers and outpatient clinics. In the VA system, about a quarter of all primary-care patients are treated and seen by a PA. Approximately 32 percent of those PAs are veterans, including myself. 

I am a former Navy hospital corpsman. 

The OIG report of January 2015 conducted a determination of 

the VA occupations with the largest staffing shortages, as required 

by the Veterans Choice Act. OIG determined that PAs were the 

third critical occupation on the list compared to all others. 

According to the National Workforce Succession Planning of 

2015, next year, in 2016, 37 percent of PAs are eligible to retire. 

This workforce loss will result in approximately a loss of 1.15 million veteran eligible patient care appointments. In 2014, PAs had 

the highest total loss rate of 10 percent, more than any of the other 

top 10 occupations deemed difficult to recruit and retain. 

Utilizing the VA provisions of the Veterans Choice Act of 2015, 

the VA reports no current plans for recruiting for new PA positions 

and for retaining an optimal PA workforce. They are setting goals 

to hire only physicians and nurses, as they interpret the law, and 

so not including the PA workforce. 

Some facilities are not posting for PAs at all under the Veterans 

Choice Act. Of the total postings nationally for PAs, there are only 

83. This method effectively eliminates 50 percent of eligible applicants. And when medical centers or CBOCs do not post for PAs, 

the centers send a message that PAs and PA veterans should not 

and cannot apply, even though military PAs often have higher levels of experience from frontline battlefield care. 

The discrepancy in salary, benefits, and education debt-reduction 

programs between the civilian sector and the VA continues to be 

a recruiting and retention barrier. 

There are three types of providers within the VA that provide direct patient care: physicians, physician assistants, and nurse practitioners. Physicians are mandated a yearly market pay survey. 

Nurse practitioners, by virtue of being a nurse, are mandated 

under the yearly R.N. locality pay scale. PAs fall under a special 

salary rate. However, this is not mandated yearly. Some facilities 

have not performed a special salary survey for 11 years. 

Reporting in the results of the VISN 2014 Workforce Succession 

Plan, 88 VA main facilities report the reason that their VISN canVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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not hire PAs is because they cannot compete with the private-sector pay. 

The Secretary can convert physician assistants to covered positions and pay them pursuant to current public law. However, the 

VA has refused to pursue these steps to solve their current retention problems for PAs. The recommendation is Congress should legislate a mandate that the VA Under Secretary for Health include 

PAs in the nurse locality pay system under title 38. 

For the education debt-reduction program, VAPA is also concerned that the use of recruitment incentives within the VA is at 

the discretion of the hiring facility and is not standardized across 

the VA system. During 2013, only 44 physician assistants have received $319,000 in scholarships, compared to 705 registered nurses 

seeking to become nurse practitioners receiving scholarship awards 

totaling over $11 million in support of NPs and NP programs. 

The recommendation is that VAs must advertise in all PA vacancy announcements so prospective applicants are aware of the 

education debt reduction—loan forgiveness. Move the program application process for accountability nationally since this is not a facility-funded but a VA-funded program. 

Next is the Independent Care Technician, the ICT, Program, also 

known as the Grow Your Own program. To assist returning OIF/ 

OEF returning veterans, to include targeted scholarships, Grow 

Your Own mandates the VA shall appoint a PA ICT program director to coordinate the educational assistance necessary to be a liaison with PA university programs so these corpsmen and medics 

can follow the footsteps and become PAs. 

For recruitment, move all direct patient care positions to the National Recruiter/Workforce Office. 

In conclusion, Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley, 

and other members, as you strive to assure that veterans receive 

timely access to quality healthcare and demand more accountability into the VA healthcare system, we strongly urge the full 

committee to review the report and critical role of the PA profession and ensure the VA take immediate steps to address the current problems on a national level and not leave it to the VISN and 

local facilities to address the problem, as the OIG report shows the 

PA profession continuously moving up the list on critical occupations. The PA profession was borne from the military, and we need 

to continue that special relationship. 

On behalf of the entire membership of the Veterans Affairs Physician Assistant Association, I really appreciate this opportunity to 

testify here before you today and ask for your help in supporting 

the Nation’s veterans. 

[THE STATEMENT OF MS. RUBINA DASILVA APPEARS IN THE AP- PENDIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Ms. DaSilva. 

Ms. DASILVA. Yes, sir. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Dr. Salvo, you are up. 

STATEMENT OF NICHOL L. SALVO, DPM 

Dr. SALVO. Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley, and 

members of the subcommittee, I welcome and appreciate the opporVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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tunity to testify on behalf of the American Podiatric Medical Association. 

I commend this subcommittee for its focus to assist and direct 

the Veterans Administration to effectively and efficiently recruit 

and retain qualified medical professionals and improve access to 

quality healthcare in the VA. 

I am Dr. Nichol Salvo, member and director of young physicians 

at APMA. I am also a practicing podiatrist, maintaining a withoutcompensation VA appointment. I am before you today representing 

APMA and the podiatric medical profession. While I do not represent VA, I do bring with me firsthand experience and knowledge 

of hiring practices within VA and knowledge of the widespread disparity between podiatric physicians and other VA physicians. 

Mr. Chairman, when the VA’s qualification standards for podiatry were adopted in 1976, I was not yet born. Podiatry starkly contrasted with that of physician providers of the time and is a far cry 

from podiatric medicine as it is today. 

Unlike 39 years ago, current podiatric medical school curriculum 

is vastly expanded in medicine, surgery, and patient encounters. 

Back then, residencies were few and were not required. Today, 

there are mandated standardized comprehensive 3-year medicine 

and surgery residencies to satisfy all of our graduates, with 77 positions housed within the VA, each requiring completion of a broad 

curriculum equitable to medical and osteopathic residency training. 

Today’s podiatrists are appointed as medical staff at the vast majority of hospitals, and many serve in leadership roles within those 

institutions. Many of my colleagues have full admitting privileges 

and are responsible for emergency and trauma calls. 

The competency, skill, and scope of today’s podiatric physicians 

has certainly grown from the podiatrists that practiced before I was 

born. Because of this, CMS recognizes today’s podiatrists as physicians, and TRICARE recognizes us as licensed independent practitioners. That is today’s podiatrist. 

We must also understand today’s veteran. Veteran patients, 

often plagued by socioeconomic and psychosocial issues, are ailing, 

have more comorbid disease, and are of disproportionately poor 

health status compared to their nonveteran counterparts. These patients increase the burden of diabetic foot ulcers and amputations, 

and, as documented in my written testimony, almost 2 million veterans are at risk of amputation with underlying diabetes, sensory 

neuropathy, and nonhealing foot ulcers. 

This is my patient population. The veteran population is far 

more complex to treat than patients in the private sector as a 

whole. One of our major missions is amputation prevention and 

limb salvage, which provides a cost savings to VA and an integral 

role of the veteran quality of life. 

As part of the interdisciplinary team, podiatrists independently 

manage patients within our respective State scope of practice, and 

we assume the same clinical, surgical, and administrative responsibilities as any other unsupervised medical and surgical specialty. 

Despite this equality in work responsibility, there exists a 

marked disparity in pay and recognition of podiatrists as physicians in the VA. The majority of new podiatric hires have minimal 


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experience and lack board certification. The majority of these new 

hires will separate from the VA within 5 years. 

I am speaking to you from personal experience, as I am one of 

the majority. I entered the VA without board certification, with less 

than 5 years of experience. I gained my experience, earned my 

board certification, and then separated from the VA to take a leadership position with my parent organization. 

While I will forever remain loyal to the veterans, which is why 

I still voluntarily treat patients in my local facility without compensation, I testify to the profound disparity. 

Legislative proposals to amend title 38 to include podiatric physicians and surgeons in the physician and dentist pay band have 

been submitted by the director of podiatry services annually for the 

last 10 years, and these proposals have been denied every single 

year, as were several requests for an internal fix, despite written 

letters of support from the former Under Secretary of Health Robert Petzel, M.D. 

Five years ago, APMA leadership made this issue a top priority. 

Since then, we have alerted the VA to our knowledge of this issue, 

and, in response, former Under Secretary Petzel created a working 

group with whom we have participated in several meetings and 

from whom we recently received acknowledgment of the need of a 

legislative solution to address this issue. 

In closing, I would like to state that oftentimes we find that the 

simplest solution is the best. I come before this committee today to 

respectfully request that Congress help the VA and its patients by 

passing legislation to recognize podiatric physicians and surgeons 

in the physician and dentist pay band. 

We believe that simply changing the law to recognize podiatry 

both for the advancements that we have made to our profession 

and for the contributions that we make in the delivery of lower-extremity care for our veteran population will resolve recruitment 

and retention problems for the VA and our veterans. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you 

again for this opportunity. This concludes my testimony, and I am 

available for questions. 

[THE STATEMENT OF DR. NICHOL SALVO APPEARS IN THE APPEN- DIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Dr. Salvo. I appreciate it. 

I will yield myself 5 minutes for questions. 

Boy, there are a lot of questions I would like to get answered 

here today from many of you. I think I will start with Ms. Clifford, 

though, because I think you brought up something that is pertinent 

here. 

How long does the average hiring process take? How long is that 

time? And talk a bit more about the difficulty in getting people because they take a job somewhere else while the process is ongoing. 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Right. So it is pretty variable, and it can go anywhere from 2 to 6 months or maybe more in some places. 

It is a very complex process. First, at most places, it will have 

to go through a resource committee for approval, which usually is 

the quickest part of the process. It then has to get posted on 

USAJOBS, so it has to be put in the proper format to be posted 

on that. And then we wait and get the certification of who has apVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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plied for that position. And then they have to go through all of 

these other processes we have, such as e-QIP, which is the background check. We have the—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. In other words, like, 2 to 6 months—— 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Yes. 

Dr. BENISHEK [continuing]. In order to get hired. And so, like, 

the least amount of time is, like, 2 months. 

Ms. CLIFFORD. I think 2 months would be considered a good 

hire—a quick hire. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Because I know that in the private sector it 

doesn’t take—if you apply for a job, it doesn’t take 2 months. They 

get hired in the private sector at the local hospital—I mean, in my 

experience. Do you have any experience with numbers in the private sector? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. That is correct. I don’t have any numbers, but I 

do know that that is what we hear from some of our candidates. 

And it will come to the point where they will say, I have another 

job offer, you know, how quickly can you tell me whether or not I 

can have it. Because they probably haven’t even given notice to 

their other job, so it is another month after we even make the job 

offer to get them in the door. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Dr. Spagnolo, can you comment on the same question as far as the physician side of things? I know that, there is 

a lot of trouble with the qualifications or making sure that the person’s background is right and on getting that right. But how does 

that process work in the VA, from your experience? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I would echo what you just heard. It takes sometimes up to a year to recruit a physician. I have heard them taking 

even longer. 

I also run the respiratory care department, and it is usually a 

year before we can hire a therapist, to get through all the processes 

and finally get them in. Working with H.R. is near impossible. 

Dr. BENISHEK. So this is all done through the H.R. department 

then? I mean, the physician hires, as well? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Well, you know, there is more than just the H.R. 

You have to get it approved by different committees and chairmen 

and hospital directors, and then it goes back and forth. It just 

takes forever. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Now, Dr. Salvo, you mentioned the podiatrist 

problem in the VA. At the VA that I worked at, the podiatrist was 

one of the busiest providers in the surgery clinic. I mean, they had 

a hard time keeping the podiatrists there long enough to do all the 

work you had to do. 

What is the difference in the payment? Are they not paid as physicians then? Can you explain that to me a little bit more? 

Dr. SALVO. Podiatry is on a different pay scale. Unofficially, I am 

aware that the pay scale ranges anywhere from $60,000 to a 

$100,000 less from other VA medical and surgical specialties, depending on what the specialty is. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Well, that would sort of explain why it is difficult 

to recruit. 

Ms. DaSilva, do you have anything to add on that, on that recruitment and difficulty-in-hiring question? 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Ms. DASILVA. I would agree with—it does take a long time. It 

takes about 6 weeks in the private sector, max, whereas in the VA 

system it can take up to 6 months. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Dr. Spagnolo, could you expand a little bit about 

my concern when I worked the VA was the fact that, the doctors 

weren’t involved with making the decisions in departments that actually involved how the patient care is delivered. They were sort 

of told what to do by the administration and then left to do that. 

Can you expand on that thought? Do you agree with my thinking 

there? And what should be done about it? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Well, yes, we need to empower the physicians in 

the facilities. I think if you took people, in every VA facility, you 

took a dozen people in the facility who knew really what was going 

on, you could find out very quickly what was working and what 

wasn’t working. You need to empower some of the nurses, you need 

to empower the physicians, get some real input on how to become 

more efficient and how to provide better care. I think that could be 

done very quickly. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you. 

I am out of time, and I will yield to Ms. Brownley. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I know that the Secretary of the VA is really trying to make 

transformation at the VA. And I have heard him and others from 

the VA testify that we need to shift the VA from a rule-based organization to a principle-based organization. 

And it sounds to me, based on the longevity of hiring people 

within the VA, it is the rules that are—because there are so many, 

is what slows the whole process down, that we would be better off 

following the practices of private industry in terms of hiring. 

Is that a fair assessment for nurses? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. I would say so. There is a lot—it is very complex, 

lots of steps in the process from the human resource side, and that 

is what causes a lot of the delay. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. So, for the nurses, unlike the physicians, the 

problems are predominantly within the human resources department and their rules. Hiring doctors, you go through human resources but have to go outside of human resources, as well? 

Yes, yes, yes, and yes? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. I am not sure I understand the question about 

going outside. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. So Dr. Spagnolo testified for longevity, in terms 

of hiring physicians, that it is within the human resources department but they also have to go outside of the human resources and, 

I presume, be interviewed by other physicians or other departments. And I am just wondering, for nurses, is the whole hiring 

process within the human resources department? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Well, the nurse managers or the supervisors make 

the decision of who they want to hire, and then the technical parts 

are all done by human resources. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. And the same for physicians? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I can’t tell you how many human resource officers 

I have seen go by in 40 years. But every new director that came 

to our facility in the last 40 years has said, ‘‘My number-one priority is to fix H.R.’’ It has never been fixed. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Ms. BROWNLEY. Mr. Spagnolo, your testimony was shocking, 

when you said sometimes veterans have medical appointments for 

care and leave not knowing that they did not see a physician or 

medical expert of any kind. That is pretty shocking testimony to 

me. 

And then when I hear some of the obstacles around physician assistants and the shortage there, I am not sure what to say, except 

we have a lot of improvements to make. 

But, I mean, do you think that that is a common occurrence, 

where a veteran comes for an appointment for medical services and 

never sees a physician? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Was the question do I think it is common? 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Yes. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Yes, I think it is quite common. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. And how do you think—you also said in your testimony that physicians are doing nonphysician care, like typing 

and filing and followup calls and helping patients change their 

clothes and patient reception, et cetera. 

How did that happen? How did those responsibilities become the 

responsibilities of the physician? Is it just because of the shortage 

of people in the operation, or are these specific responsibilities of 

a physician? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I don’t know specifically how that has occurred 

over the years, but I can tell you that when I was a chief of staff 

a number of years ago, I used to say to our hospital director when 

he would come in and yell at me and say our docs aren’t seeing 

enough patients—and I keep telling him that the reason they can’t 

see patients is there is nobody in the clinic to assist them to see 

the patient. 

They have one examining room. They have to go get the patient. 

They have to help get the patient undressed. They have to see the 

patient. Then they have to write a note, usually on the computer 

nowadays. And they have to help the patient get dressed, and then 

they have to escort the patient out of the room. 

How many times in a day can you do that when you have no 

other help? You have nobody to help input data into the computer. 

You have no one to help you request drugs for patients into the 

computer. You are basically doing the physician, the secretary, the 

receptionist. 

It is very difficult to be efficient—not that the physicians don’t 

want to be efficient. They would love to be efficient, but the system 

doesn’t permit it. And when you talk to the administrators, they 

just glaze over. It gets the physicians extraordinarily frustrated. 

They would love to see more patients. Everybody would love to see 

more patients. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, Doctor. 

My time is up, and I yield back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Dr. Roe, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Dr. ROE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

And, Dr. Salvo, you really threw me off when I realized I have 

been a doctor longer than you have been alive. 

Dr. Spagnolo, I suspect you had the same sort of angst as I did. 

A couple of things I just want to go over very quickly. I have to 

run to the airport and catch an airplane. But, number one, I think 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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you very clearly pointed out the loss of professionalism that is occurring. 

In my practice, I had an assistant, I had a nurse with me, I had 

three examining rooms. I could really see a lot of patients very efficiently and very well. You cannot see patients efficiently in that 

circumstance. It is impossible. You can’t make you more productive 

when you have six jobs. And I think that very loss of professionalism has occurred. 

I think another thing that has occurred in the VA is that we 

have fewer M.D. providers as hospital administrators. If you have 

been in the trenches working, you understand exactly how that 

clinic works. I understand exactly how your clinic works or doesn’t 

work. So I think that is one of the issues we have to deal with. 

And I think another question I have right quickly is, what is the 

retention problem? When you hire people, there is this huge turnover, both in nursing and on the medical side. What do you all see 

as that? Why is that? Is it the working conditions? The pay? I 

mean, there are a lot of things you have gone over, but why is 

that? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I will take a stab, and then it is yours. 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Okay. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. They come to work with great enthusiasm. Good 

people, they get put into these situations where, after 6 months or 

a year, they just are frustrated, depressed, tired, nobody listens, 

and they leave. So your turnover rates, I don’t know what they are 

nationally, but I know that in primary care some places have turnover rates of 100 percent every year. 

It is frustration. Primarily frustration, I would say. 

Dr. ROE. And—excuse me. Go ahead, Ms. Clifford. 

Ms. CLIFFORD. So I would say it is, again, dependent on different 

facilities. To your point that people all come in with the best of intentions, but if you happen to be in an area that has a difficult 

time recruiting, then they are kind of always behind the eight ball. 

They are required to do a lot of overtime, or they are having lots 

of shift changes, and so people get frustrated and burnt out and 

leave. But in facilities that are able to maintain that, people stay 

because they stay for the mission of the VA. 

Dr. ROE. Two other quick questions. 

One is, from Mr. Morris’ standpoint, is there a barrier? If you 

have a different—I am certified by the American Board, but are 

there barriers out there for other board certifications that you see 

that help reduce staffing? Is that a real issue that he brought up 

or not? 

And I guess, Dr. Spagnolo, you can answer it, or Mr. Morris can 

answer it, either one. 

And the second—— 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I think within certain—— 

Dr. ROE. Let me throw the second one out so you can just answer 

it. 

You know, the Veterans Choice Act, which we spent a lot of time 

on and getting passed, provided $5 billion to increase staffing for 

the VA. Is that happening? Is that money being used that way? 

Those are my two questions. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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Dr. SPAGNOLO. If your question is, on the Veterans Choice Act, 

whether they are utilizing it, is that—— 

Dr. ROE. Yes, sir. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I don’t know how much they are utilizing it, to 

be honest with you. I don’t know if the—I know that we have tried 

to have a few people go somewhere else. One had an artificial 

heart. And it was like a nightmare to get that done, because the 

facility that they were to go to had no experience with that. 

I can’t tell you how it is across the VA. From what I hear, it is 

not very efficient. So if it is going to work, it has to be efficient. 

I would like to see within the VA more efficiencies and getting 

these procedures done more quickly. I mean, some physicians have 

no—their access to the operating room is 1 or 2 days a week. 

Dr. ROE. Okay. 

That second—you know, with staffing less physicians, as Mr. 

Morris pointed out, is being boarded by somebody other than what 

I am boarded by, is that a barrier to hiring people? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Yes, I think it is a barrier. 

Dr. ROE. Is it a legitimate barrier, or is it—— 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I think it is a legitimate barrier in some situations. 

Dr. ROE. Okay. 

Any other comments on that? Have any of you—Dr. Salvo, have 

you seen that? 

Dr. SALVO. I am not—in my capacity as a WOC (Without Compensation) appointment within the VA, I have had to deal almost 

nothing with the Veterans Choice Act personally. That is purely 

administrative by other departments. 

Dr. ROE. Yes. 

Ms. DaSilva. 

Ms. DASILVA. Sir, I do want to say with the Veterans Choice Act, 

it has been interpreted to not include physician assistants by some 

facilities. So if you wanted to talk about increasing recruitment, if 

the jobs aren’t even posted and physician assistants aren’t even 

able to apply for those jobs, that is not going to increase access for 

care for veterans. 

Dr. ROE. Well, Just as I head out the door, it isn’t really hard 

to figure out your needs when you just call the people scheduling 

appointments and find out you have a 6-month wait. It isn’t rocket 

science. Look, I have been doing it for four decades, and you find 

out, and all of you there know, if you have a long waiting list for 

patients to come in, you need to hire people to take care of those 

waiting lists or make your shop more efficient. It is not complicated. I mean, I did it for years. 

And, I mean, the way I learned out if I needed anybody is I 

would go to church and somebody would say, I can’t get an appointment with you for 6 months. I would figure, hey, maybe we better 

hire another practitioner, and we did. And that is what I see there. 

So my time has expired, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for indulging 

me. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Mr. Roe. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. You are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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I want to thank everyone on the panel for being here. And your 

commitment to improving the VA and serving our veterans gives 

me an opportunity to remember and thank those who serve the veterans in El Paso, Texas. That is the district I have the honor of 

serving. 

And, Dr. Salvo, your story of continuing to treat veterans without 

compensation reminds me of people that I have met at the VA who 

are providers there who could be working in the private sector at 

much greater pay and probably much less frustration and yet 

choose to work at the VA because they want to serve veterans, and 

they do a wonderful job. 

And I hear that from the veterans that they treat and serve directly, you know, that it is really hard to get in, and there is a lot 

of frustration with the bureaucracy, but once you are seen by a provider, typically, the experience is excellent. And I think that is 

something that I have heard my colleagues on the committee share, 

as well. 

Two things stick out to me, in terms of the larger picture. One 

is—we heard the Deputy Secretary say this day before yesterday, 

Sloan Gibson—that there are 28,000 unfilled positions at the VA 

today. Just the hiring challenge there is just monumental, staggering. I don’t know how you get over it. And it hasn’t improved 

in a year. 

And the other is that wait times also have not improved in a year. You know, $15 billion or $16 billion authorized and appropriated this summer; program went live in November. Dr. 

Spagnolo, you said you are not sure if you have seen any significant change in access or treatment as a result of that. We know 

from a hearing earlier this week that we thought that $10 billion 

of that were going to be obligated sometime in the early part of fiscal year 2016, which could take you to maybe December or January, you know, in the next 6 months, and only $500 million has 

been obligated. 

So you all have each offered important suggestions to improve 

the delivery of care and the hiring and the speed at which we bring 

people on board. And I am really glad that Dr. Lynch is here to 

listen to all this, and I know that he is taking note of this and will 

incorporate these, I hope, into the operations at the VA. But I am 

also looking for some kind of big breakthrough in what we are 

doing. 

I don’t know that, with these 28,000 outstanding hires, with wait 

times that haven’t improved despite the notoriety around the crisis 

in Phoenix and all the attention that we have spent and the new 

legislation that we thought was going to fix it, I don’t know that 

this model works, nor should we expect it to work. 

And, you know, one of you said it is not going to be a matter of 

resources. We can’t throw more money at this and just expect it— 

we can hire people more quickly. You know, I heard these same 

stories. We had a psychologist who was hired from Georgia, recruited by the VA in El Paso. And he said, you know, sure, I would 

like to do this job, sign me up, and it took 3 months to bring him 

on. They recruited him, and it took 3 months. And in that time he 

said, you know, there were several other offers, and I thought 

about taking them, but I wanted to serve in an underserved area. 


VACREP0180 with DISTILLER
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So I realize I have chewed up most of the time I had, but I want 

to offer the last minute and a half to anyone who might have a big 

breakthrough idea on how we change what is obviously a system 

that just doesn’t work. 

Ms. Clifford, it looks like you might have one. 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Well, I don’t know if it is a breakthrough idea, but 

if we don’t address the human resource piece of it—and from that, 

I just want to go on record as saying it is not the staff that are 

doing the work there. They are killing themselves trying to help us 

get these people in. But the task ahead of them is just so overwhelming that—I don’t know what their retention rates are, but I 

would think they are not very good because they turn over very 

quickly. Because it takes a lot of time to get them trained, and so 

they don’t stay long enough to get trained. And they go to other 

jobs, either in other parts of the government or out of human resources altogether. 

So if we kind of don’t address that area—because they are our 

bread and butter of getting people in. 

Mr. O’ROURKE. And that is an open question from me to each of 

you. And I am sure my colleagues on the committee would all be 

interested in hearing your answer. So we are not going to have 

time to get that from each of you today, but know that I think, you 

know, speak for myself, very interested in a different way forward. 

I think more of the same we have seen from the last year, despite, you know, what I think is tremendous leadership on the part 

of the VA and the new Secretary, it is just not working. And the 

people who are delivering that care on the front lines are suffering, 

and what is even more important, the people that they serve are 

suffering. And we have to have a big, bold path forward to fix this. 

So, with that, I yield back to the chair. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Mr. O’Rourke. 

Mr. Coffman, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

We get scope-of-practice questions here in the Congress relative 

to the Veterans Administration. I think a lot of these issues have 

been resolved down at the State level before State legislatures. And 

I have been on both sides of it as a State legislator, where I think 

they are better qualified at the State level to make those decisions. 

They can have hearings; you know, they know that the docs, the 

providers within their communities. 

And so I guess my question to you is, clearly, you know, people 

that—well, my question to you is, what do you think about devolving the scope-of-practice issues down to reflect whatever the standards are within the given States that these VA facilities are in, 

number one? 

And, obviously, we are going to make sure that the providers are 

properly credentialed or trained to be able to perform those duties 

within the scope of practice. So devolve it down to the State level, 

reflect State regulations wherever these VA facilities are, as opposed to us relitigating these issues at the Federal level. 

Would anybody like to comment on that? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Well, I can speak to it from the advanced practice 

realm. And the issue becomes—we care for patients across States, 

and so different States have different nurse practice acts which 


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allow the nurse practitioners to do different things at different levels and how much independent practice they can have. 

So, in VA Boston, for example, we are a referral center, so we 

are patients from Maine and New Hampshire, and yet the nurse 

practitioners in some States are able to do things and are not able 

to in other States. So it makes it—it is hard for us to give equitable 

care across all of our veterans when we have different practices 

across. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Anybody else? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I am not sure I could respond to that because I 

have never really thought of that as an answer, but probably have 

to probably look at that a little bit more and see where that would 

take us. But it may be a possibility; I don’t know. But I would like 

to get back to you on that. 

Mr. COFFMAN. As an example, the issue between anesthesiologists and nurse anesthetists has been settled across this country 

in different States. And now both sides want us to relitigate it here 

at the Federal level where I would just as soon to defer to those 

State legislatures who have made those decisions. So that would be 

an example. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I would have to look at that across State lines. 

I don’t have a good answer for you on that whole issue. But I will 

get back to you on that. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Okay. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. 

Mr. Takano is next. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 

Ms. Clifford, thank you for your testimony today about the vital 

that role nurses play in the VA and how we can better attract and 

retain nurses to care for our veterans. 

You mentioned something about streamlining the hiring process 

and improving education resources for nurses, but I am wondering 

about your thoughts about giving nurses improved rights to raise 

grievances about staffing levels and how that can improve the 

workplace, empower nurses, and encourage them to continue serving our veterans. 

In a statement submitted for the record, the AFGE mentions 

that through a loophole nurses and other VA healthcare providers 

are denied full collective bargaining rights that other Federal employees have. The AFGE supports a bill that I have introduced, 

H.R. 2193, the VA Employee Fairness Act, to expand providers’ 

ability to negotiate to improve staffing levels and in turn the care 

our veterans receive. 

Mr. TAKANO. Do you think we need to pay attention to the work 

environment to attract and retain skilled nurses? 

Ms. CLIFFORD. Yes, sir. And in VA nursing we actually use an 

expert panel for staffing methodology model, in which case we use 

front-line staff to participate in what those staffing levels and numbers should be for those individual units. That is the model that 

we use. So we do involve front-line staff in that, and they look at 

the demographics of their unit, the turbulence of their unit, the 

things that are going on in their unit, and the acuity levels to determine what should be the appropriate staffing mix and level. And 


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those recommendations are then put forward through the nurse executive to the resource committees at those. 

Mr. TAKANO. Dr. Spagnolo, the similar question regarding the 

ability to collectively bargain, to set staffing levels. Do you think 

that expanding the collective bargaining rights and physicians’ 

ability to negotiate would play a role in ensuring physicians’ voices 

are heard, you are paid attention to by the folks that are making 

decisions? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Frankly, I am not sure I have an answer to that 

question. We currently have union representation in the hospital 

that gets involved in a lot. I think some of these issues, it seems 

to me many times it makes it more complicated. I think if we could 

empower more people within the hospital we could probably eliminate a lot of these problems that have to do with working conditions. 

Mr. TAKANO. How do you empower them without having collective organization? How are you going to be heard and listened to? 

How are you going to get people to listen to you unless there is 

some leverage? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. Well, I am not quite sure I understand that question. But if you are talking about pay or are you talking about 

working conditions? 

Mr. TAKANO. Well, working conditions are also part of what are 

collectively bargained. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I am not sure, the issues that we have been discussing here, I don’t know if you need that kind of collective bargaining agreement. I think if we can all sit down around the table, 

we could solve these problems. 

Mr. TAKANO. Okay. Thank you. 

Mr. Spagnolo, I want to briefly ask you this question. Isn’t there 

a tremendous physician shortage in the country? Does that not 

play into why it might be difficult for the VA to recruit physicians? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. There is a physician shortage in some areas, I 

agree with you on that. 

Mr. TAKANO. Primary care? 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I think in primary care. But, again, I keep coming 

back to the same issue, it is a revolving door, if you don’t make 

things a little better. I think the salaries in the last 10 years have 

come up significantly. 

Mr. TAKANO. Okay. On the physician’s assistant side, I am just 

wondering about whether or not there might be some education inflation. I was interested to hear that the military was the beginning of the whole idea of PAs. There are community college programs that will take, up until now, PA people who had up to 5 

years of experience, say, in the military, and with a community college program of 2 years they can become PAs, but I understand 

that the accreditation has moved had a to a master’s degree minimum. 

Ms. DASILVA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TAKANO. Is that something you agree with, Ms. DaSilva? 

Ms. DASILVA. I went to a community college and applied to an 

accredited physician assistant program. So it is at a master’s level 

now. The Grow Your Own, the ICT is a great program and a great 

pathway to let returning corpsmen and medics coming back who 


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are OIF/OEF to have a pathway to go and become physician assistants. So, yes, it is a master’s program now and it has to be accredited. 

Mr. TAKANO. But is the loss of that pathway through the community college to your program, is that a problem? I mean, is that 

kind of added burden necessary? 

Ms. DASILVA. Sir, when I applied to PA school, and to my knowledge there is not a pathway that you can go to a community college 

and become a physician assistant, it at a minimum was a bachelor’s program even when I applied in 1999. I did not know of any 

community college that was offering the physician assistant program at that time. There were very few even at that time that 

were offering a bachelor’s, they had all turned to a master’s program and now even offering doctorate’s. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you. I yield my time back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you. 

Dr. Wenstrup. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 

you and the ranking member for putting this panel together and 

for all of you being here today. I think it is very insightful and it 

provides us with a lot of opportunity to make things better in the 

VA by hearing what you have to say today. 

When I first got here 2 years ago, and this is before Phoenix 

broke and everything else, coming from private practice I was concerned, I remember asking Dr. Petzel if anybody on the administrative staff have ever been in private practice where they had to be 

in the black to keep their doors open and none of them had. And 

I found that very significant and a key part, especially when you 

talk about physician directors today being involved. It would be 

even more helpful if they had some private practice experience and 

prove efficiency. 

I also asked the question at the time, I said: Do you think the 

VA, if you took all their expenditures like a private practice has to 

do, their physical plant, their nurses, their assistants, their supplies, their insurance, and all the bills that they had to pay, I said 

if the VA looked at themselves that way and took fee-for-service at 

Medicare rates, would you be in the black. And he said yes. And 

I about fell out of my chair, because I know how tough it is to be 

in the black seeing three times as many patients as the VA was 

doing. 

And I greatly appreciate what you are talking about today, 

where you have physicians doing things that in a private practice 

you have someone else do, so that you can care for more people. 

And that really is the bottom line. So I really appreciate what you 

are saying today. 

Look, on this committee alone we have five physicians. If we 

can’t make things better sitting here, then we are in trouble. This 

is an opportunity that should not be wasted, and I hope that we 

proceed in that direction. So thank you all for advocating on the 

things that I think we all believe in. 

I do have one question, and it has to do with retention and recruitment and the length of time it takes to fill a spot. I think we 

have touched on some of the reasons why it is tough, but I am curious how long it takes to fill a spot. Because I have had young docVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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tors, podiatrists, M.D.s, come to me and say: I looked into it, but 

I didn’t see a bright future here. And especially when you talked 

about the podiatry pay issue. 

So if you could both weigh in on length of time it takes to actually fill a slot on average and the challenges, I would appreciate 

it. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I don’t know what else to tell you other than the 

processes are so complicated and it has got to go through so many 

levels and then it has to get approved and reapproved and on a resource committee meeting and then off of committee, and sometimes the committee doesn’t meet for 2 months, and then it goes 

to HR, and then back to the resource committee. That just takes 

forever. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, that is what I want to hear. And I am hoping working with you we can come up with a plan that streamlines 

that and makes it a whole lot more efficient. 

Dr. SPAGNOLO. I would be delighted to help you work on that 

plan. 

Mr. Chairman, I have a clinic at 1 o’clock, which we have 40 people waiting on me. May I be excused? 

Dr. BENISHEK. Yes, I suppose so. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Well, Dr. Salvo, I would like you to weigh in as 

well, if you can. 

Dr. SALVO. Thank you. I am in complete agreement with Dr. 

Spagnolo, and he indicated earlier in his testimony an approximate 

wait time in terms of getting credentialed and privileged and starting in the VA approximately 1 year. And if I were to consider the 

average, that is probably true. 

When I left my post in the Cleveland system, it was 14 months 

before that was filled. I have had two WOC (Without Compensation) positions since have I started my current position with APMA. 

One took me 11 months. The other one, surprisingly, took me 5. It 

is an excessive, burdensome process when you factor in VetPro and 

you factor in the application process along with all of the forms and 

the various HR levels and committees that everything has to be 

completed. So it is extremely, excessively burdensome. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

I yield back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Doctor. 

Ms. Kuster. 

Ms. KUSTER. Thank you very much to our chair and the vice 

chair for holding this hearing. 

And I apologize to all of you that we have flights that we have 

to catch, but I appreciate you being here and look forward perhaps 

another time that we could bring Dr. Lynch back so that more of 

us could hear. 

I just want to focus in. I had the opportunity just recently to visit 

the White River Junction, Vermont, hospital, which is the VA hospital that serves many of the folks in my district. And I think they 

are very focused on veteran-centric care. They have actually had 

some very good results from the Choice Act in hiring just recently. 

In fact, they were focused on getting nurse practitioners into our 

CBOC so that in the rural communities they would have the preVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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scribing ability to stay on top of medications and prescribe without 

people having to go down to the VA hospital. 

But I want to focus in on the question of the PAs, and just generally I am pretty familiar with the private sector and the fact that 

this is a national trend, we are pushing down our medical care to 

the right person, at the right time, for the right task. So it doesn’t 

surprise me that somebody would come in and not see a physician. 

I don’t typically see a physician when I get care in the private sector. If I can see a PA or see a nurse practitioner, I get terrific care. 

So I don’t want to mislead anyone about what is expected. 

My concern about the PAs is this chronic loss rate, 12 to 14 percent loss rate, and particularly comparing it to a very favorable 

practice with the nurse practitioners in their residency program, 

100 percent retention of employed nurses after 1-year of employment, as compared to over a loss rate of over 10 percent in other 

practices. 

I am wondering, and this is for Ms. DaSilva, have you see anywhere, whether it is in the VA or outside, it could be a best practice that we could bring in, a residency-type program where we 

could be more focused on our PAs, give them the support that they 

need to be able to stay on the job, because my understanding is it 

takes at least 6 months to replace a PA. That is expensive. It is 

expensive to the system. And, as I say, I am just focused on veteran-centric care. Can we get them the care that they need? 

Ms. DASILVA. Thank you for that great question. 

The issue when you were talking about the residency program, 

we don’t have a particular, like, Grow Your Own residency program. When I had given my verbal testimony, I talked about the 

scholarships that are just not available. So if you have a medical 

technician or somebody in the VA system who says they want to 

go on and become a physician assistant, there aren’t really funds 

that are nationally set aside for it. It is up to each local facility if 

they do that. There isn’t a definite program that you can apply to 

and have a pathway to become a physician assistant. 

So if you wanted to do that, you would have to take out loans 

or leave the VA system or come into the VA system, spend a short 

amount of time, and then leave. That is why we were talking about 

the Grow Your Own. So if you do have corpsmen medics who are 

in the VA system or returning, can come and work at the VA, get 

their PA school paid for, and then continue to work within the system. 

That would be the ideal pathway to do and to set aside. There 

are education debt-reduction programs to have PAs come and work 

in the system. However, the funding is at a local level, so it is not 

nationally mandated. So if you ask at the local level, they may say 

that the funds are not available. 

Ms. KUSTER. So I would be very interested in looking into bipartisan legislation to bring the PAs in line with both the debt reduction and the scholarship programming too. And I love the idea of 

our returning vets. I know we have talked a lot on this committee 

about aligning their abilities and making sure that they have a 

path to successful employment in the private sector. 

And then just briefly, my time is almost up, but I did want to 

just mention I am also interested in the mandated surveys, to inVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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clude our PAs in the mandated salary surveys in the community 

so that we better align the compensation for PAs. But I think we 

should do what we can to make sure that doctors are working at 

their highest and best use and that they have the support to see 

more patients. I am a big fan of bringing in nurse practitioners and 

nurses obviously for what they can do for it. And I really want to 

be supportive of getting PAs up to speed and well compensated so 

that they will be able to participate as well. 

So thank you very much. 

And I yield back. Thank you. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Ms. Kuster. 

Dr. Abraham, you are recognized. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. I first want to give Dr. Spagnolo who has left accolades for having the patience of Job, if he is able to work 40 years 

in the system that requires him to enter data. I know as a practicing physician when my triage nurse would call in, or my scribe 

when we used the electronic health records would call in sick, I 

would see two-thirds, if not 75 percent less patients that day when 

I actually had to do the work. So the hard work is actually done 

by those nurses and good triage people that make us look better 

than we probably really are. 

Saying that, I have worked also with PAs and NPs all my career, 

and the service and the level of care that you provide is outstanding. 

Dr. Salvo, on the podiatry front, I have referred patients all my 

career to podiatrists for anything from Charcot foot to diabetic cultures, and again could not ask for a better level of care from your 

profession. So kudos to you guys. 

I find it odd that in programs such as Choice or anything that 

is non-VA related that the VA doesn’t mind that our good veterans 

are being seen outside the VA clinic by board certification other 

than ABMS. They allow the AOA, I think that is the osteopathic 

board, and the ABPS, the profession that you represent, Mr. Morris, they allow them to see them and don’t seem to have a problem 

with that, but they evidently have a problem hiring those same 

types of board certifications in the VA hospitals themselves. 

Again, going back to my little world of a practicing physician before this job, I used physicians of every specialty certification, for 

hospitalists, for referral. And across the board there was no difference in care. They all, whether it be the ABMS, your profession 

that you represent, the AOA, all provided, again, outstanding level 

of care, either outpatient or in the hospital, for my patients. 

So I guess the question is, how many physicians do you think 

have been denied positions at the VA because of their different 

board certification? 

Mr. MORRIS. We couldn’t get an accurate—I mean, there is a lot 

of our membership, which is why we have been pushing this issue. 

Most of them are even veterans themselves. We have tried to reach 

out to get those counts, to get those numbers, but unfortunately in 

the politics of medicine some of the physicians are even afraid to 

even come forward to say things because there are blacklists or 

names that get out to where if they do get an opportunity to get 

a job, they have been denied these instances. 


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The politics of medicine regarding board certification has been 

something that I was shocked to see when I first came in. If you 

are having great physicians denied opportunities or even great physicians working within the VA system denied levels of promotion, 

denied movement along in their career solely because they chose 

the smaller board. And we are here today and we have been here 

continuously having you meet our physicians to really show them 

that it should be looked at the physician as a whole of their education, training, and experience, not what choice they made in their 

board certification. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you. 

Well, I think everyone has had an opportunity. So if there are 

any further questions, otherwise we will excuse the panel. 

Well, you all are excused then. Thank you very much for your 

testimony. We really appreciate you coming in here. 

Dr. BENISHEK. I will now welcome our second panel to the witness table. Joining us in the second panel is Dr. Thomas Lynch, the 

VA Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Health for Clinical Operations. Dr. Lynch is accompanied by Elias Hernandez, the Deputy 

Chief Officer for Workforce Management and Consulting, and Dr. 

Gage, the Chief Officer of Nursing. 

Thank you all for being here. 

Once you get settled, Dr. Lynch, you are welcome to begin your 

testimony. 

STATEMENT OF THOMAS LYNCH, M.D., ASSISTANT DEPUTY 

UNDER SECRETARY FOR HEALTH FOR CLINICAL OPERATIONS, VETERANS HEALTH ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS, ACCOMPANIED BY 

ELIAS HERNANDEZ, DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER FOR WORKFORCE MANAGEMENT AND CONSULTING, VETERANS 

HEALTH ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS 

AFFAIRS, AND DONNA GAGE, PH.D., RN, NE-BC, CHIEF OFFICER OF NURSING, VETERANS HEALTH ADMINISTRATION, 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 

OPENING STATEMENT OF THOMAS LYNCH M.D. 

Dr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I got the short 

chair here, but I will try to make the best of it. 

I would like to go off script for just a minute after acknowledging 

you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Brownley, and the members, 

and thanking you for the opportunity to discuss VA’s ability to recruit onboard and retain qualified medical professionals. 

I want to acknowledge the panel that preceded us. I want to acknowledge the opportunities that they afforded us I want to hear. 

I wanted to echo Secretary McDonald’s statement of the other day 

that we really need to engage and empower our employees. We 

need to listen and we need to learn because they will help us provide better care to veterans. 

With that said, I would also like to acknowledge today that I am 

accompanied by Mr. Elias Hernandez, Dr. Donna Gage. Mr. Hernandez was recently appointed Chief Officer for VHA’s Office of 


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Workforce Management and Consulting and is responsible for providing human resource support services and training. Dr. Gage, 

who recently joined VA from the private sector, serves as VHA’s 

Chief Nursing Officer and advises on all matters related to nursing 

and the delivery the patient care services. 

Establishing and realizing staffing requirements for VA’s 

healthcare system is a very complex task. The VA operates over 

1,000 points of care across the country and provides a full range 

of primary and specialty care services for patients ranging in age 

from our youngest, recently discharged servicemembers to our most 

senior veterans. Rural populations, unique health conditions resulting from combat experiences, and an increasing number of women 

veterans require a commensurate array of professionals to address 

their unique and individual requirements. 

Adding to the challenge is the fact that there are many approaches to medical professional and support staff modeling across 

large healthcare systems. There is no one-size-fits-all model and no 

single set of staffing management tools from the private sector or 

elsewhere that we can borrow. These are indeed challenges, but 

they are no means an insurmountable barrier to achieving the goal 

of timely access to care for veterans. 

VA is leveraging our national recruitment program, dedicated recruiters partnering with facilities and identifying hard-to-fill positions, marketing, and hiring qualified medical professionals. We 

are promoting scholarships and loan repayment programs, such as 

the Education Debt Reduction Program and employee incentive 

scholarship programs, as expanded by VACA. We have increased 

the physician and dentist compensation pay tables in order to attract and retain qualified healthcare providers. We are improving 

the credentialing process for VA and DoD healthcare providers, 

which involves sharing credentials to speed up the process. 

In the last 12 months, VA has hired more than 37,000 new employees, with a net increase of over 11,000 medical professionals 

and staff. This includes about 1,000 physicians and 3,000 nurses. 

In addition, we are leveraging new technology to expand the 

reach of healthcare providers. From 2010 to 2014, there was a 114 

percent increase in the use of all healthcare technology among 

unique veterans. At the end of 2014, 12.7 percent of all veterans 

enrolled in VA care received telehealth-based care. This includes 

over 2 million telehealth visits, touching 700,000 veterans. 

To address the increase in the rural veteran population, the VA’s 

Office of Academic Affiliations, in partnership with the Office of 

Rural Health, is sponsoring a 3-year Rural Health Training Initiative. The project is designed to fulfill VA’s mission to serve veterans living in rural areas. Funding under this request allows VA 

facilities to expand health professions training to rural VA locations. Additional trainee positions awarded as part of this initiative 

become part of each facility’s permanent base location. 

As you can see, we have made significant progress, but we realize we still face many challenges with wait times, the provision of 

rural healthcare, and the commitment to women’s health issues. By 

increasing staff, clinical space, community care, and the hours of 

care available we believe our recent progress has resulted in some 

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creases in the number of appointments for veterans already enrolled. We have completed 2.5 million more appointments inside 

VA this past year. 

We also believe that in many specific locations, with the longest 

wait times, the more access we offer, the more veterans will seek 

VHA care services. It is also a challenge to recruit healthcare professionals at some of these locations. These are all contributing factors as to why wait times are stagnant in some areas and why we 

must focus our efforts. 

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, we have the best clients in the field 

of healthcare. We are grateful for Congress’ support, and we look 

forward to your continued assistance in getting the best doctors 

and nurses to serve veterans. The challenges remain formidable, 

but our commitment to timely, accessible care and a positive patient experience is unwavering. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening remarks. My colleagues and I are prepared to answer any questions you and the 

members of the committee may have. 

[THE PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. LYNCH APPEARS IN THE APPENDIX] 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you, Dr. Lynch. And I will yield myself 5 

minutes for questions. 

It is great that you come and you tell us how well you are doing 

and how much improved and you cite these statistics and stuff, but 

it is really frustrating to me. You heard the testimony from the 

previous panel and that there seems to be just way too many orders from above about how things get done within the VA and that 

there is not enough, what Dr. Spagnolo talked about, is that the 

people on the ground who are actually taking care of the patients 

get to make some decisions that affect how the process works. 

Now, the VA provides hospitals, and this bureaucratic mess does 

not occur at the same level in private hospitals. So not every single 

private hospital has 2,000 clinics, but they seem to do a better job 

of hiring and firing and having processes work efficiently than the 

VA. And I think a lot of it is because the people on the ground have 

more power to actually change things. 

Now, I will give you a great example of this, is I just went to a 

CBOC in my district, and one of the complaints that I had was that 

everybody who went and saw the patient had to sign in and out 

on the computer. There was a computer in the examine room, the 

nurse goes in, she has to sign into the computer, she has to sign 

out when she is done. The doctor comes in, he has got to sign in 

and sign out to write anything down about the patient. They can’t 

take their laptop with them and stay signed in. They have to wait 

5 minutes signing in every time they see a different patient. And 

it was like the cumulative time of signing in and signing out of the 

computer was, a huge waste. 

So the people in the clinic are telling me that this is a big time 

killer in their clinic and yet nobody could get that changed, because 

the way they were doing it was from above. Those are the kind of 

processes, Dr. Lynch, that need to be solved at the local level because every single little clinic or hospital is going to have an issue 

like that that has to be done. 


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And I have been here for years now listening to what you guys 

have been doing as far as physician staffing, for example, eight 

times in the last 30 years the inspector general has told the VA 

that they need a central plan for hiring physicians and eight times 

the VA has agreed with the inspector general that they need that. 

But they haven’t gotten a central plan for hiring physicians over 

the last 30 years. 

So what has changed, Dr. Lynch? How can we get this moving? 

How can we jump-start this? I mean, it is the same answers I hear. 

It is not working. 

Dr. LYNCH. So let me start by agreeing with you on one point. 

I think the aggravation of dealing with our computer system is exceedingly frustrating. I think the other side of that, fortunately, is 

that it provides a very accurate medical record. 

I would disagree in that I think the solution is probably central 

and we need to look for ways to make computer access more efficient across our system. I don’t think it is a local problem. I think 

it is larger. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Well, I could tell you that at the hospital I worked 

at I had a laptop of my own that I used. I signed in once, I kept 

it with me, and I went and saw a bunch of different patients. I 

didn’t have to sign in and sign out. That was not a centrally 

planned decision, that was a locally planned decision, and it was 

a lot better for everybody. The nurse had her computer at the nursing station. She just went back and forth and didn’t have to sign 

in and sign out, lose your spot, all that baloney. 

And somehow you can’t solve that simple problem? But your answer is it has to be solved centrally. That is the wrong answer, Dr. 

Lynch. That is what I am trying to tell you. 

Dr. LYNCH. I understand your position, but I am going to disagree. And we end up facing obstacles from Homeland Security, 

and the risk of access to national computers limits—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. Everybody has a problem with the security of 

health computers, so don’t tell me it is special to you, okay, because 

everybody is concerned about the patients’ privacy on healthcare. 

So these are answers that don’t make any sense, Dr. Lynch, and 

I am very disappointed to hear this kind of stuff. I want your solution to these problems, and I think it goes down to not having 

enough control locally. 

Mr. Hernandez, let me ask you a quick question before I am out 

of time about Ms. Clifford’s HR question and statement that it is 

so unwieldy. What can you do about? Quick. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I will tell you, Mr. Chairman, and to acknowledge to the subcommittee that we do have a complex HR system which is comprised of two different personnel—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. What have you done in the last year to change 

that? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. We have trained the HR professionals, the 

credentialers, the leaders of the organization, and the hiring managers at the local level to understand the hiring process and the 

roles and responsibilities during that process. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Have they changed that process in the last year 

to make it simpler? 


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Mr. HERNANDEZ. Sir, we are looking. Mr. Sherman—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. You have not then, that is a no, you have not 

changed the process in the last year to make it simpler. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. We have, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. BENISHEK. What have you done? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. We have visited the—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. What have you changed in the process of hiring 

people in the last year that made it simpler, one thing? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. We have educated the H.R. community—— 

Dr. BENISHEK. No, no, no, not educate the person. What about 

the process have you changed in the last year to make the hiring 

easier? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. That is what I am trying to convey, Mr. Chairman, that the hiring authority that we have given to us by Choice, 

as well as the flexibilities that we have of hiring Title 38 and Title 

38 hybrid occupation is being fully utilized systemwide. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Okay. I am out of time. I am sorry. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Well just to follow up on that line of questioning, I think Mr. 

O’Rourke asked the first panel, what is a big, major thing? That 

is what he was looking for, something big and a big change. And 

Ms. Clifford answered by saying it is human resources. And I 

think, and I think this is what the chairman was getting after as 

well, is that there are so many rules that you have to follow that 

that really slows the process down. 

So to me it is the rules, and we probably need more human 

beings and human resources to carry out the task and the mission 

of the amount of people that we need to hire within the VA, which 

many would say is insurmountable. It is a huge number that we 

need to hire. 

So can you address, is there anything underway to evaluate rules 

that might have been made two decades ago that can be changed, 

rules that can be changed, and what we can do to hire more in 

human resources to get this engine running at a higher speed to 

hire new professionals within the organization? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Yes. Ranking Member Brownley, there have 

been numerous engagements at the local level by subject matter 

experts from the national level to provide support in terms of the 

processes that we currently have. 

And I would like to state this, because it is very important, and 

perhaps it may look like a simple issue. But we have integrated the 

requirements identification at the local level with the responsibilities of the human resources professionals, as well as the hiring 

managers, the people that are responsible for space and equipment, 

and the individuals responsible for the credentialing process. 

Where at one time those processes used to be independent and 

used to operate in silos, we have integrated those particular processes so we don’t have the delays that the other panel mentioned 

to the subcommittee earlier. And we have proven that in Phoenix, 

we have proven that, the process has worked in St. Louis. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Okay, so you have gotten rid of silos and there 

is a more integrated process, where in certain areas in the country 

we are speeding up the process. Have you had any directive from 

above to say we need to really review the rules within human reVerDate Aug 31 2005 08:59 Jul 22, 2016 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 Y:\98-638.TXT PAT

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sources and adding additional personnel? And is anything like that 

underway? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Yes, ma’am. I will tell you that last year the 

Leading Access and Scheduling Initiative looked at the processes 

and the barriers that we had in the local level in terms of HR and 

as well as the national level, and we were able to change a lot of 

the VHA policies that were identified as barriers. 

In terms of the human resources situation that we currently 

have, we are looking at that particular process in terms of bringing 

up that particular issue to the national level committee so that we 

can address that particular situation. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. But have you had a specific directive to hire additional people and continue to make changes within the rural 

process to streamline the whole hiring process? You have had directives? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. We have had guidance issued to the field, yes, 

ma’am. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. So, Dr. Lynch, in terms of the testimony from 

the American Podiatry Association, is there something that we 

need to do legislatively to fix what they testified in? And if there 

is not a need for a legislative fix, is there something the Department can do to recognize their growing mission? And I think they 

also testified vis-&-vis their salaries, et cetera. So how do we get 

more podiatrists within the VA? Do we need to fix that legislatively 

or can that by fixed internally? 

Dr. LYNCH. So let me first acknowledge the work that podiatrists 

do. As a vascular surgeon, I have worked closely with podiatrists 

throughout my career and I appreciate the value of their product. 

There have been several suggestions that have been provided. 

One was suggested this morning that VA be given the authority to 

recognize podiatrists as physicians, as CMS does. Other changes 

are to our handbooks. But it appears that one of the more significant opportunities may be legislation, and we are more than happy 

to work with the committee to provide the clinical input to the development of any legislation that may bring that forward. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. Thank you. I will yield back. 

Dr. Benishek. Dr. Wenstrup. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Lynch, you said something that really struck, and it is not 

on you, but what you said is there are homeland security issues. 

And I think what a shame it is that the veteran going to the doctor 

becomes a homeland security issue. And that tells me that we have 

become way too connected in everything that we do with the core 

of the Federal Government that when you go to the doctor you 

have to have these issues. 

Because I can tell you from many years in my practice, may be 

changed since we have had to use EMR forced on us by the government and connect with all these people and people’s medical 

records are now going everywhere rather than staying within your 

office, but I can tell you, for years any individual, veteran or otherwise, that came to me for care wasn’t worried about Russia, China, 

North Korea, or Iran. 

We need to have a solution to that problem, and you are in the 

middle of it, and I would love to hear some solutions, because that 


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should not be a concern of veteran, that it is a homeland security 

issue for them to go to the doctor. 

Dr. LYNCH. Congressman, I don’t disagree with you, and I am as 

frustrated as you are. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. I am sure you are. 

Dr. LYNCH. And I have lived it, okay, and I don’t know what the 

solutions are, but I agree entirely that we need to figure out a way 

that we can streamline the medical care system that now has the 

opportunity to use virtual technologies and not let it get tied up in 

security issues that actually create more work rather than less 

work. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. But I agree with Dr. Benishek, and it is the same 

on DoD side from personal experience. You are putting your CAC 

card in a million times a day rather than seeing patients and you 

are going back and forth. I mean, the difference, in my practice if 

somebody comes, they tell a medical assistant there is someone up 

front, what is wrong with them, how they injured themselves. They 

turned their ankle, we go get an x-ray. Haven’t seen the doctor yet. 

Now they see the doctor, the x-ray is there. I hadn’t had to plug 

in three times to make that happen and do that from patient to patient. 

Let us help you help fix this problem by coming up with solutions that we can insist that the VA make changes. And I know 

as a practicing physician, if you have had to experience that or 

know the difference, help us come up with the solutions and demand that we get it done. 

Dr. LYNCH. Yes, sir. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Lynch, in your testimony you mentioned that as a result of 

the Choice Act the VA has already hired 2,500 medical professionals and support staff. Did I get that right? 

Dr. LYNCH. Twenty-six hundred actually, yes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Twenty-six hundred. Were all of those new positions or were some of those staff hired to fill existing vacancies? 

Dr. LYNCH. To my knowledge those were new positions. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. New positions. 

Dr. LYNCH. New positions. 

Mr. TAKANO. Okay. Well, with the resources the Choice Act provided will the VA be able to shorten the long wait time it takes to 

fill the vacancies at the VA? 

Dr. LYNCH. I am confident they are. I think Mr. Hernandez implied earlier that human resources has begun looking at their process. It has in the past been a serial process. It needs to be a parallel process. It can be complex, but it can be simplified. It requires 

proactively assessing our needs. In certain cases it requires staffing 

to organizational charts. We know somebody is going to leave, we 

know that position is approved, let’s replace it. It involves communication, it involves preparation. 

I think, to the chairman’s point, this is where the clinical staff 

does need to get involved with the leadership and with human resources to further the efficiency of the process that we currently 

have. It is not efficient, it takes too long. I think we know how to 


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change it. I think we have begun to implement changes. We need 

to go further. 

Mr. TAKANO. Another vital provision of the Choice Act was the 

increase of 1,500 GME slots. I understand that the first round of 

residencies have already been awarded. 

Dr. LYNCH. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TAKANO. And that the VA is moving forward with the second 

round. 

Dr. LYNCH. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TAKANO. Will expanding the number of residencies improve 

the pool of candidates for the vacancies at the VA? 

Dr. LYNCH. Absolutely. Two standpoints. Number one, I think VA 

has a unique advantage over the private sector. Currently, we have 

over 40,000 residents and medical students that rotate through our 

VA. We have nurses as well. These are all potential employees. We 

have first chance at evaluating those individuals. We just need to 

be able to efficiently move to hire them. 

What the Choice Act did was to give us more positions in primary care and mental health in rural areas and in areas where 

there is not access to care. The goal will be to train people in communities where they may go back to practice. VA once again has 

the opportunity to say: Let’s try to look for the best and let’s hire 

them for the VA, but let’s do it efficiently. 

Mr. TAKANO. You know what, I did get a call from a gastroenterologist, a young one, working at the USC medical facility in 

Los Angeles, and expressed extreme frustration at not being communicated with. This person has applied for a vacancy at gastroenterology at the LA VA hospital. And so I am beginning to understand what made on Hawaii this frustration. What do we need to 

do to bring through this inefficiency? I mean, do you have a plan? 

Have you pinpointed where the bottlenecks are? 

Dr. LYNCH. The bottlenecks, Congressman, are the fact that we 

don’t move fast enough and that we don’t give people commitment 

soon enough. I was talking to Mr. Hernandez before the subcommittee hearing, and we have mechanisms in place now where 

we can offer a job a year in advance of the completion of their program. That means we can identify the people we want, we can offer 

them the job. The only condition is that they have to complete their 

training. But otherwise, we have an opportunity to take advantage 

of these educational training programs that we have. And we 

haven’t been doing it, but we need to. 

Elias, do you want to comment briefly on how we can begin to 

recruit and get these people sooner? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Lynch. 

Going back to my original point is taking advantage of the flexibilities we have on the Title 38 and Title 38 hybrids appointing authority. We can engage in early conversations with the residents so 

we can get their commitments with the condition that once they 

complete their training program we will be able to convert them 

into permanent employees for the organization. 

Mr. TAKANO. What about people who already are trained and certified and are applying for vacancies? 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Congressman, I will tell you that we have a 

very aggressive national recruitment program, and I, personally 


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speaking, would like to know a little bit more about that particular 

individual because gastroenterology is one of the most critical occupations we have in the organization. And our national recruiters 

are dedicated staff that deal directly with those individuals to engage with them early on in the process and walk them through the 

entire onboarding process. 

Mr. TAKANO. I will be happy to furnish the names to you. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. I would love to have it, Congressman. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you. Thank you. 

Well, it is just funny that they are solving the problem, but your 

guy can’t get a job after a year. 

Dr. Abraham. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. I will add my frustration to Dr. Benishek’s and to 

Dr. Wenstrup and evidently the panel’s about having to log in 

every time that patient goes from room to room. Homeland security 

was one issue that you brought up, Dr. Lynch, but certainly on the 

civilian side we as physicians have to worry about HIPAA compliance if we let a record escape. The fines are very hefty. So we are 

under the gun, so to speak, as much the VA is and we understand. 

But if we have a computer system in the VA facility that the 

record can’t move from computer to computer, then we do have a 

problem. And I am sure that they can, but the reason that they 

don’t is I guess a question I do have, is like Dr. Benishek said, why 

can’t that computer travel with the patient or just travel from room 

to room as the patient travels, just boot that record to another facility? The first question. 

And the second question, I only have two, you heard Mr. Morris’ 

testimony, he was representing, I think, the American Board of 

Physician Specialties, as far as not being able to receive jobs in I 

guess the ratio that the ABMS was able to with their certification. 

Is there a disparity between those two specialties and even the 

AOA, the osteopathic physicians, and if so, why? 

Dr. LYNCH. Congressman, I will be honest, this is the first I have 

heard of the concern today. I take it seriously because it is the potential opportunity to find more healthcare providers for the VA 

and for veterans. I will take it for the record to go back and find 

out a little more information about that and what has happened in 

the past. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. I would appreciate if you would send that to me 

or just a followup. I would appreciate that. 

Dr. LYNCH. Absolutely. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. Okay. And the first question, what is the issue 

with the computers? 

Dr. LYNCH. I share your frustration. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. I know you do. 

Dr. LYNCH. I have been there. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. We are past Alexander Graham Bell and we actually have got some pretty good computers these days. 

Dr. LYNCH. I grew up in an era when the phones were still dial 

and actually in an era when you had party lines, which was always 

kind of interesting. 

Dr. ABRAHAM. I was also there. 


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Dr. LYNCH. I can carry a phone in my pocket now. We need to 

figure out a way how we can harness computers to work for us and 

not necessarily create obstacles for us. 

Mr. ABRAHAM. And I appreciate that. And again, my request is 

that you please look into that, because it shouldn’t be that hard 

with the computer systems we have now. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you. 

Anyone have any other questions? 

Go ahead. 

Ms. BROWNLEY. I just wanted to make one final comment before 

we close here. And I just want to say I know that the employees 

within the VA, particularly in human services, and you, Mr. Hernandez, are working very, very hard every day. Ms. Clifford testified that you are working really hard every single day, and I believe that and I thank you for your service. 

I just believe that we need to do more, that you need more assistance, you need a larger team, and we have to streamline the rules 

that are made, and we have got to put on our commonsense thinking hats, if you will, and streamline this process. 

So I didn’t want to close without you thinking that, because I believe that you are working very, very hard and the people who are 

working for you are working very, very hard. I just believe you 

need more people and we need to improve upon the rules. 

Mr. HERNANDEZ. Thank you, ma’am, and we appreciate your support. 

Dr. BENISHEK. Thank you all once again for being here today. I 

think we have touched on several issues that are very important 

for our veterans, and I really appreciate the work that you do. 

The subcommittee may be submitting additional questions for 

the record. I would appreciate your assistance in ensuring an expedient response to those inquiries. 

Dr. BENISHEK. And if there are no further questions, the panel 

is excused. Thank you very much. 

Dr. BENISHEK. I ask unanimous consent that all members have 

5 legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include 

extraneous material. Without objection, so ordered. 

Dr. BENISHEK. I would like to once again thank all of our witnesses and the audience members for joining us here this morning 

and this afternoon. And the hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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APPENDIX 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JOAN CLIFFORD, MSM, RN, FACHE 

Overcoming Barriers to More Efficient and Effective VA Staffing 

Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley and members of the Subcommittee, on behalf of the nearly 3,000 members of the Nurses Organization of 

Veterans Affairs (NOVA), I would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify 

on today’s important and timely subject—VA Staffing. 

As the Department of Veterans’ Affairs undergoes a system-wide reorganization 

to include the many challenges of implementing The Veterans Access, Choice and 

Accountability Act, staffing must be at the forefront of its evaluation. I am Joan 

Clifford, Deputy Nurse Executive at the VA Boston Health Care System and am 

here today as the immediate Past President of NOVA. NOVA is a professional organization for registered nurses employed by the VA. 

NOVA respects and appreciates what our labor organizations do for VA nurses. 

NOVA’s focus is on professional issues not working conditions which are the purview of the union. 

NOVA is uniquely qualified to share its views on the ability of VA to effectively 

and efficiently recruit, on-board and retain qualified health care professionals to 

treat our veteran patients. As VA nurses, we are in the medical centers, communitybased outpatient clinics and at the bedside every day. With this in mind, we have 

identified retention and recruitment of health care professionals as a critically important issue in providing the best care anywhere for our veterans and would like 

to offer the following observations. 

NOVA believes that the underlying issues reside in the lack of a strong infrastructure for Human Resources, insufficient nursing education opportunities, as well as 

the complex application system—USA Jobs—that the VHA utilizes for hiring staff. 

VHA is facing a shortage of both corporate experience, and a lack of sufficient HR 

staffing to support the multiple priorities required for hiring health care professionals. 

USA Jobs is a complex hiring process. The system is very slow to review applications online, adding days, even weeks to the time it takes to create a complete qualification review. Upcoming enhancements in HR such as Web HR and HR Smart 

have to be able to interface with USA Jobs. Some candidates have had to wait five 

months while HR processed their applications. This results in candidates accepting 

non-VA jobs, and puts VA back in the hunt for another qualified candidate. 

HR employees often have limited knowledge of direct hiring process for Registered 

Nurses, resulting in unnecessary recruitment delays. HR has also been faced with 

multiple initiatives, policies and Human Resources Management letters with unclear instructions and guidance. Additionally, current VA process and policies for obtaining recruitment and retention incentives can also cause significant delays in hiring personnel. 

All levels of support personnel, as well as RN’s, are impacted by the current inflexibilities in pay structure and years of flat lined and non-existent pay increases. 

Reclassification and downgrades of some occupations such as Surgical Technicians 

who were brought in at the GS7 level, and have recently been downgraded to GS5 

are making it impossible to competitively recruit and retain. Additionally, the increased availability of private sector jobs due to retirements and program expansions within the Affordable Care Act has created other hurdles for VA. 

Locality pay challenges, which directly influences RN pay, have once again been 

brought up by Medical Center leadership. Due to the lack of corporate knowledge 

among staff within HR on how to maximize the law inconsistent application of the 

Pay Law remains an obstacle of hiring. NOVA asks that the ceiling on nurse pay 

be increased to prevent compression between the grades in order to remain competitive. 

Ensuring an infrastructure of knowledgeable education leaders within VHA is also 

critical to support programs that produce nursing graduates who honor and respect 

Veterans Programs. These programs are often key to hiring opportunities at the 

Post Baccalaureate Nurse residency and the Nurse Practitioner residency level 

within VA. 

Nursing residents from these programs are embedded in the VA and have the opportunity to demonstrate clinical competency as well as apply for available positions. An increase to the nursing education infrastructure budget is needed to provide for more senior nursing leaders who initiate and manage these programs. 

Tuition reimbursement and loan forgiveness monies should also be enhanced in 

order to help new nurses defray the cost of their education if they work for VHA. 

The Office of Academic Affairs has supported a wonderful RN Residency Program 


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across some VA’s, but funds are limited thus potentially impacting the recruitment 

of future RN hires who flock to these programs. Programs that already exist, such 

as the Health Professional Scholarship Programs, which allow the VA to recruit 

nurses by paying their tuition in exchange for a service commitment after licensure, 

need to be considered an important part of funding methodology. 

Funding is also needed to support VA Nursing Academic partnerships which enables VA and School of Nursing faculty to develop and implement Post Baccalaureate Nurse Residency (PBNR) and Nurse Practitioner Residency programs 

(NPRP). The PBNR has had an impressive impact on nursing recruitment and retention. The PBNR had 100% retention of employed nurses after one year of employment as compared to the overall loss rate of 10% in other practices. The nurse practitioner residency program has found that residents overwhelming wish to work in 

the VA. The NPRP program is currently a pilot and will require sustained funding 

to pay for resident stipends and education infrastructure for the educational programs and infrastructure for VA Nursing. NOVA believes it is a good investment 

as hiring NP’s will increase access and enable additional services to veterans needing care nationwide. 

Another area of concern is the use of Advanced Practice Nurses (APRNs), which 

at this time, are subject to the state laws in which the facility is located. If a state 

has a physician supervisory or collaborative relationship in their regulations, then 

APRNs are not allowed to practice autonomously to the full scope of their abilities. 

Currently there are 20 states and the District of Columbia that have Full Practice 

Authority laws in place; in those states and the district, VA APRNs are allowed to 

practice to the full extent of their scope. However, in the other remaining states this 

is not permissible. 

VHA is advocating for ‘‘Full Practice Authority’’ which would result in APRNs employed by the VA to function to the full extent of their education, licensure, and 

training, regardless of what state they live and work. Legislation has been introduced, H.R. 1247, the ‘‘Improving Veterans Access to Care Act of 2015,’’ which is 

the model already practiced by the Department of Defense, Indian Health Service 

and the Public Health Service systems. NOVA, together with the American Nurses 

Association, American Association of Colleges of Nursing, American Association of 

Nurse Practitioners, American Association of Nurse Anesthetists, National Association of Clinical Nurse Specialists and the American College of Nurse-Midwives are 

calling on Congress to support this legislation which would begin to address critical 

needs within VA facilities by improving wait times and access to care for all veterans. 

In closing, NOVA would like to add that the past year’s negative publicity surrounding the scheduling and access crisis within VA has also had an impact on recruiting potential applicants. VA employs over 90,000 nurses, which is about one 

third of its health care workforce. NOVA believes that there is no greater time to 

have representatives from the Office of Nursing Services at the table as VA reorganizes the way it provides care and services to America’s heroes 

Improvements and careful review of the process of downgrades across VA, increased training and utilization of Locality Pay law, revising the cap on the RN Pay 

schedule to eliminate compression, as well as establishing a more user friendly application process and supporting HR offices across the U.S. will go a long way towards correcting the challenges VHA faces with staffing. 

NOVA once again thanks you for this opportunity to testify and I would be 

pleased to answer any questions from the committee. 

Statement on Receipt of Grants or Contract Funds: Neither Ms. Joan Clifford, nor 

the organization she represents, the Nurses Organization of Veterans Affairs, has 

received federal grant or contract funds relevant to the subject matter of this testimony during the current or past two fiscal years. 


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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. NICHOL L. SALVO

Chairman Benishek, Ranking Member Brownley and members of the Subcommittee, I welcome and appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today on 

behalf of the American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA). I commend this Subcommittee for its focus to assist and direct the Veterans Administration (VA) to effectively and efficiently recruit and retain qualified medical professionals to treat 

veteran patients and improve access to quality health care in the VA system by addressing the lengthy and burdensome credentialing and privileging process. 

I am Dr. Nichol Salvo, member and Director of Young Physicians’ at the American 

Podiatric Medical Association (APMA). I am also a practicing VA physician, maintaining a Without Compensation (WOC) appointment status. I am before you today 

representing APMA and the podiatric medical profession, and specifically our members currently employed, and those seeking to be employed, by VA. While I do not 

represent VA in my capacity today, I do bring with me first-hand experience and 

knowledge of hiring practices within VA, as well as knowledge of the widespread 

disparity between podiatric physicians and other VA physicians. 

APMA is the premier professional organization representing America’s Doctors of 

Podiatric Medicine who provide the majority of lower extremity care, both to the 

public and veteran patient populations. APMA’s mission is to advocate for the profession of podiatric medicine and surgery for the benefit of its members and the patients they serve. 

Mr. Chairman, when the Veterans Health Administration (VHA) qualification 

standards for podiatry were written and adopted in 1976, I was not yet born. 

Podiatric education, training and practices in 1976 starkly contrasted with that of 

other physician providers of the time, and with podiatric medicine as it is today. 

Unlike thirty-nine years ago, the current podiatric medical school curriculum is 

vastly expanded in medicine, surgery and patient experiences and encounters, including whole body history and physical examinations. In 1976, residency training 

was not required by state scope of practice laws. Today, every state in the nation, 

with the exception of four, requires post-graduate residency training for podiatric 

physicians and surgeons. In 1976, podiatric residency programs were available for 

less than 40 percent of graduates. Today there are 597 standardized, comprehensive, three-year medicine and surgery residency positions to satisfy the number of 

our graduates, with 77 positions (or 13 percent) housed within the VA. In contrast 

to 1976, today’s residency programs mandate completion of a broad curriculum with 

a variety of experiences and offer a direct pathway to board certification with both 

the American Board of Podiatric Medicine (ABPM) and the American Board of Foot 

and Ankle Surgery (ABFAS). These certifying bodies are the only certifying organizations to be recognized by the Council on Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) and 

VA. These bodies not only issue time-limited certificates, but they participate in the 

Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) Maintenance of Certification 

(MOC) reimbursement incentive program. Unlike the residency curricula in 1976 

(which were not standardized, nor comprehensive), today’s residency curriculum is 

equitable to MD and DO residency training and includes general medicine, medical 

specialties such as rheumatology, dermatology and infectious disease, general surgery and surgical specialties such as orthopedic surgery, vascular surgery and plastic surgery. CPME-approved fellowship programs did not exist in 1976, but since 

their creation in 2000, they offer our graduates opportunities for additional training 

and sub-specialization. Today, podiatric physicians are appointed as medical staff at 

the vast majority of hospitals in the United States, and many serve in leadership 

roles within those institutions, including but not limited to chief of staff, chief of 

surgery, and state medical boards. Many of my colleagues have full admitting privileges and are responsible for emergency room call as trauma and emergency medicine are now also incorporated into post-graduate training. The competency, skill 

and scope of today’s podiatric physicians are vastly expanded and truly differ from 

the podiatrist that practiced before I was born. Because of this, CMS recognizes today’s podiatrists as physicians, and Tricare recognizes us as licensed, independent 

practitioners. 

The total number of VA enrollees has increased from 6.8 million in2002 to 8.9 million in 2013 (1). While we are slowly losing our Vietnam veteran population, we are 

gaining a solid base of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) and Operation Iraqi 

Freedom (OIF) patients, returning from war with their unique lower extremity 

issues. The projected patient population of Gulf War Era veterans is expected to increase from 30 percent in 2013 to approximately 55 percent in 2043 (1). The number 

of service-connected disabled veterans has increased from approximately 2.2 million 

in 1986 to 3.7 million in 2013 (1). Over 90 percent of disabled veterans were enrolled in VHA in 2012 (1). The likelihood of service-connected disabled veterans 


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seeking VA health care generally increases with the veteran’s disability rating (1). 

The majority of male veterans who are currently seeking care from VA served during the Vietnam era (1). 

As a matter of fact, veteran patients are ailing and have more comorbid disease 

processes than do age-matched Americans (2, 3, 4, 5, 6). This includes major amputation, where age-specific rates are greater in the VHA compared to the US rates 

of major amputation (7). Elderly enrolled veterans have substantial disease burden 

with disproportionately poor health status compared to the same age enrolled in 

Medicare (8). The prevalence of diabetes is substantially greater among veteran patients compared to the general population, and unfortunately, the prevalence is 

trending up (6). While diabetes affects 8 percent of the US population, 20 percent 

of veteran patients carry this diagnosis (9).The aging veteran population combined 

with these increased rates of diabetes has increased the burden of diabetic foot ulcers and amputations (10). Veteran patients with one or more chronic diseases account for 96.5 percent of total VHA health care (9). In addition to diabetes, some 

of the most common chronic conditions documented in our veteran patients manifest 

in the lower extremity such as hyperlipidemia, coronary artery disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and heart failure.(9). 

Socioeconomic and psychosocial issues often plague our veterans and further complicate disease management. Veteran patients statistically have lower household incomes than non-veteran patients (1). Sadly, many of our veterans are homeless and 

suffer from comorbid conditions such as diabetic foot ulcers, sometimes with a level 

of amputation, so management of this patient population can be extremely challenging. Health care expenses combined with disability and compensation coverage 

account for the majority of VA utilization and have demonstrated significant growth 

since 2005 (1). 

This is my patient population, Mr. Chairman. I serve patients who are statistically comorbid with psychosocial and socioeconomic issues, all of which play a role 

in my delivery of care and final outcome. I know first-hand, with private practice 

experience and VA experience, that the veteran population is far more complex to 

treat than patients in the private sector, as a whole. Greater than 90% of the veteran podiatric patient population is 44 years and older, with the majority of our patients of the Vietnam era, who are plagued by the long-term effects of Agent Orange. Because of this and because of the increasing number of OEF, OIF, and Operation New Dawn (OND) veterans with lower extremity conditions, one of our major 

missions as providers of lower extremity care is amputation prevention and limb 

salvage. The value of podiatric care is recognized in at-risk patient populations. 

Podiatric medical care as part of the interdisciplinary team approach reduces the 

disease and economic burdens of diabetes. In a study of 316,527 patients with commercial insurance (64 years of age and younger) and 157,529 patients with Medicare 

and an employer sponsored secondary insurance, there was noted a savings of 

$19,686 per patient with commercial insurance and a savings of $4,271 per Medicare-insured patient, when the patients had at least one visit to a podiatric physician in the year preceding their ulceration (11). Nearly 45,000 veterans with major 

limb loss use VA services each year. Another 1.8 million veterans within the VA 

Healthcare Network are at-risk of amputation. These at-risk veterans include 1.5 

million with diabetes, 400,000 with sensory neuropathy, and 70,000 with non-healing foot ulcers (12). Despite having a large at-risk patient population from the Vietnam era, VA podiatric physicians are seeing increasing numbers of OEF, OIF and 

OND patients who are at-risk for amputation. From FY 2001 to 2014, the number 

of foot ulcers increased in the OEF, OIF, and OND populations from 17 documented 

cases to 612 (12). Despite our statistics of at-risk patients, lower extremity amputation rates among all veteran patients decreased from approximately 11,600 to 4,300 

between fiscal year 2000 and 2014 (12). Given the magnitude of amputation reductions, podiatric physicians not only provide a cost-savings to VA, but we also play 

an integral role in the veteran quality of life (12). 

While limb salvage is a critical mission of the podiatry service in the VA, the care 

delivered by the podiatric physician is of much broader scope. As the specialist of 

the lower extremity, we diagnose and treat problems ranging from dermatological 

issues to falls prevention to orthopedic surgery. As one of the top five busiest services in VA, we provide a significant amount of care to our veteran patients and the 

bulk of foot and ankle care specifically. In fiscal year 2014, the foot and ankle surgical procedures rendered by the podiatry services totaled 4,794, while foot and 

ankle surgical procedures performed by the orthopedic surgery service was a sum 

total of 72. 

The mission of VA health providers is to maintain patient independence and keep 

the patient mobile by managing disease processes and reducing amputation rates. 

Podiatric physicians employed by VA assume essentially the same clinical, surgical, 


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and administrative responsibilities as any other unsupervised medical and surgical 

specialty. Podiatrists independently manage patients medically and surgically within our respective state scope of practice, including examination, diagnosis, treatment 

plan and follow-up. In addition to their VA practice, many VA podiatrists assume 

uncompensated leadership positions such as residency director, committee positions, 

clinical manager, etc. Examples include: 

• Steve Goldman, DPM, Site Director for Surgical Service, Department of Veterans Affairs - New York Harbor Health Care System; 

• William Chagares, DPM, Research Institutional Review Board Co-Chair, 

Chair of Research Safety Committee and Research Integrity Officer and Chair 

of Medical Records Committee at the James A. Lovell Federal Heath Care Center; 

• Aksone Nouvong, DPM, Research Institutional Review Board Co-Chair at the 

West Los Angeles VA; 

• Lester Jones, DPM the former Associate Chief of Staff for Quality at the VA 

Greater Los Angeles Health Care System for eight years, and podiatric medical 

community representative while serving on the VA Special Medical Advisory 

Group; and 

• Eugene Goldman, DPM formerly the Associate Chief of Staff for Education at 

Lebanon VA; 

Despite this equality in work responsibility and expectations, there exists a 

marked disparity in recognition and pay of podiatrists as physicians in the VA. 

These discrepancies have directly resulted in a severe recruitment issue of experienced podiatrists into the VA, and unfortunately have also been the direct cause of 

retention issues. The majority of new podiatrists hired within the VA have stories 

just like mine. They have less than ten years of experience and they are not board 

certified. As a result of the disparity the VA is attracting less experienced podiatric 

physicians. After hiring, the majority of these new podiatrists that hire into the VA 

separate within the first 5 years. I am speaking from personal experience, Mr. 

Chairman. As stated earlier, I am one of the majority. I entered the VA with less 

than five years of experience and was not board certified at the time. I gained my 

experience, earned my board certification, and separated from the VA to take a leadership position with my parent organization. I will forever remain loyal to VA, 

which is why I still voluntarily treat patients at my local facility, without compensation. Having worked inside and outside the VA, I can truly attest to the disparity 

that exists. 

Compounding the recruitment and retention issues, there exists lengthy employment vacancies when a podiatrist leaves a station. The gap between a staff departure to the time of filling the position is in excess of one year. I am personally aware 

that my position was assumed by a podiatric physician 14 months after my separation. Because of employment gaps as a consequence of the inherent and chronic recruitment and retention challenges, wait times within the VA for lower extremity 

care are unacceptably long. Since October 2014, 22,601 of the 191,501 (11.8 percent) 

established patients suffered a wait time of greater than 15 days, with some greater 

than 120 days. During this same time period, 23,543 of the 25,245 (93 percent) new 

patients suffered a wait time of the same magnitude. The prolonged vacancy exists 

partly because the VA is not capable of attracting experienced candidates, but also 

because the credentialing process is ineffectively burdensome. My credentialing 

process for my recent two without compensation (WOC) appointments was 11 

months and 5 months, respectively. Those are 16 months of missed opportunity to 

treat patients, but instead, I was needlessly waiting, as were the patients 

It is precisely because of the aforementioned issues that legislative proposals to 

amend Title 38 to include podiatric physicians and surgeons in the Physician and 

Dentist pay band, have been submitted by the Director of Podiatry Services annually for the last ten years. These proposals have been denied every single year. Additionally, several requests for an internal fix have been denied, despite written letters of support for this movement from the former Under Secretary of Health, Robert Petzel, MD. 

Five years ago the APMA’s House of Delegates passed a resolution making this 

issue a top priority. Since then we have alerted the VA to our knowledge of this 

issue. In response, former Under Secretary Petzel created a working group composed of Dr. Rajiv Jain, now Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Health for Patient Care Services, Dr. Margaret Hammond, Acting Chief Officer for Patient Care 

Services, and Dr. Jeffrey Robbins, Chief of Podiatry Service. We have participated 

in several meetings with members of the working group and, most recently, we have 

received written support of Patient Care Services and Podiatry Service for a legislative solution to address this issue. 


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Occam’s razor is a problem solving principle whereby the simplest solution is 

often the best. I come before this committee today to respectfully request that Congress help the VA and its patients by passing legislation to recognize podiatric physicians and surgeons as physicians in the physician and dentist pay band. We believe that simply changing the law to recognize podiatry, both for the advancements 

we have made to our profession and for the contributions we make in the delivery 

of lower extremity care for the veteran population, will resolve recruitment and retention problems for VA and for veterans. Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you again for this opportunity. This concludes my testimony and 

I am available to answer your questions. 

1. National Center for Veterans Analysis and Statistics, Department of Veterans 

Affairs http://www.va.gov/vetdata/index.asp. 

2. Singh JA. Accuracy of Veterans Affairs databases for diagnoses of chronic diseases. Prev Chronic Dis. 2009 Oct;6(4):A126. 

3. Olson JM, Hogan MT, Pogach LM, Rajan M, Raugi GJ, Reiber GE. Foot care 

education and self management behaviors in diverse veterans with diabetes. Patient 

Prefer Adherence. 2009 Nov 3;3:45–50. 

4. Powers BJ, Grambow SC, Crowley MJ, Edelman DE, Oddone EZ. Comparison 

of medicine resident diabetes care between Veterans Affairs and academic health 

care systems. J Gen Intern Med. 2009 Aug;24(8):950–5. 

5. Agha Z, Lofgren RP, VanRuiswyk JV, Layde PM. Are patients at Veterans Affairs medical centers sicker? A comparative analysis of health status and medical 

resource use. Arch Intern Med. 2000 Nov 27;160(21):3252–7. 

6. Miller DR, Safford MM, Pogach LM. Who has diabetes? Best estimates of diabetes prevalence in the Department of Veterans Affairs based on computerized patient 

data. Diabetes Care. 2004 May;27 Suppl 2:B10–21. 

7. Mayfield JA, Reiber GE, Maynard C, Czerniecki JM, Caps MT, Sangeorzan BJ. 

Trends in lower limb amputation in the Veterans Health Administration, 1989– 

1998. J Rehabil Res Dev. 2000 Jan–110011000Feb;37(1):23–30. 

8. Selim AJ, Berlowitz DR, Fincke G, Cong Z, Rogers W, Haffer SC, Ren XS, Lee 

A, Qian SX, Miller DR, Spiro A 3rd, Selim BJ, Kazis LE. The health status of elderly veteran enrollees in the Veterans Health Administration. J Am Geriatr Soc. 2004 

Aug;52(8):1271–6. 

9. Neugaard BI, Priest JL, Burch SP, Cantrell CR, Foulis PR. Quality of care for 

veterans with chronic diseases: performance on quality indicators, medication use 

and adherence, and health care utilization. Popul Health Manag. 2011 Apr;14(2):99– 

106. 

10. Johnston MV, Pogach L, Rajan M, Mitchinson A, Krein SL, Bonacker K, 

Reiber G. Personal and treatment factors associated with foot self-care among veterans with diabetes. J Rehabil Res Dev. 2006 Mar–Apr;43(2):227–38. 

11. Carls GS, Gibson TB, Driver VR, Wrobel JS, Garoufalis MG, Defrancis RR, 

Wang S, Bagalman JE, Christina JR. The economic value of specialized lower-extremity medical care by podiatric physicians in the treatment of diabetic foot ulcers. 

J Am Podiatr Med Assoc. 2011 Mar–Apr;101(2):93–115. 

12. Preventing Amputation in Veterans Everywhere (PAVE) Program 


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