UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

SKYWEST AIRLINES 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2013-0617 

Respondent 

Monday, 

May 19, 2014 

Courtroom 5223 

U.S. Tax Court 

Wallace Bennett Federal Building 

125 South State Street 

Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 

The hearing convened, pursuant to 

notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

HEAFW\!G DOCKET 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

JEFFREY HARPER, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

1601 Lind Avenue Southwest 

Renton, Washington 98057 

(425) 227-2161 

jeffrey.harper®faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

MICHAEL L. DWORKIN, ESQ. 

of: Michael L. Dworkin & Associates 

465 California Street 

Suite 210 

San Francisco, California 94104 

(415) 421-2599 

law®avialex.com 

TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. 

General Counsel 

SkyWest Airlines 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

(435) 634-3530 

temerson@SkyWest.com 

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TABLE OF CONTENTS 

w I T N E s s E s 

Direct Cross Redirect Recross 

s. Allen 20 31 36 

A. Perkins 39 70 89 

J. McKenna 94 102 

A. Perkins 103 111 

M. Wallentine 113 125 

J. Chavez 129 142 

R. Benallo 145 160 164 164 

B. Blauer 167 175 

A. Ayers 179 209 219 221 

c. Salamone 228 281 291 292 

c. Brown 298 320 

EXHIBITS 

Marked Received Voir Dire 

Complainant's 

C-1 45 46 

C-2 46 46 

C-3 133 144 

C-4 134 136 134 

C-5 28 30 

C-6 158 159 

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EXHIBITS (Continued) 

Marked Received Voir Dire 

Complainant's 

C-7 29 30 

C-8 150 152 

C-9 151 152 

C-10 152 152 

C-11 155 156 

C-12 156 156 

C-13 98 100 

C-14 159 159 

C-15 99 100 

C-16 140 141 

C-17 141 141 

C-18 52 53 

C-19 52 53 

C-20 53 53 

C-21 59 61 

C-22 60 61 

C-23 61 61 

C-24 64 66 

C-25 65 66 

C-26 66 66 

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EXHIBITS (Continued) 

Marked Received Voir Dire 

Complainant's 

C-27 69 70 

C-28 70 70 

C-29 172 174 

C-30 173 174 

C-31 174 174 

C-32 124 125 

C-33 124 125 

C-34 108 llO 

C-35 109 llO 

C-36 109 llO 

Respondent's 

R-3-1 293 297 

R-3-2 293 297 

R-3-3 293 297 

R-4 3 03 326 

R-5-1 3 03 326 

R-5-2 303 327 

R-5-3 303 328 

R-5-4 303 317 

R-5-5 303 (WITHHELD) 

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EXHIBITS (Continued) 

Marked Received 

Respondent's 

R-5-6 3 03 329 

R-5-7 3 03 329 

R-21 74 74 

ITEM 

Opening Statement by Mr. Harper 

Opening Statement by Mr. Dworkin 

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Voir Dire 

12 

15 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:08a.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're on the 

4 record. This is the docket of SkyWest 

5 Airlines. It is multiple dockets. I won't 

6 bother to read them into the record. Counsel, 

7 you want to identify yourself for the record, 

8 please? 

9 MR. HARPER: For the Federal 

10 Aviation Administration, Jeffrey Harper. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: For SkyWest 

12 Airlines, Michael L. Dworkin and Todd Emerson. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: A couple of 

14 preliminary matters. Our court reporter is 

15 doing a digital recording so, there is a 

16 slight delay when we say go off the record and 

17 go on the record. So, just be aware of that. 

18 All of you know this but just a 

19 couple comments as we go through this. Troy, 

20 if there is something that you need spelled 

21 during the course of the hearing, just put 

22 your hand up and that is our signal to all of 

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1 us to spell it. That way, at midnight 

2 tonight, you are not banging your head against 

3 the wall trying to figure out what we said. 

4 Just a reminder, none of the 

5 clocks in the courtroom or chambers or in the 

6 secretary's thing are within several hours of 

7 being accurate. The last hearing Mr. Anderson 

8 and I had, we tried to rectify the one in the 

9 courtroom. At least the clock is back up on 

10 the wall. There was a question whether we 

11 would get that accomplished. 

12 We normally take a break around 

13 10:30. We break for lunch around noon. We 

14 will take a break sometime ln the afternoon 

15 2:00, 3:00-ish. I say that so if counsel is 

16 in the middle of examination cross and 

17 mentally you look up and we are in that time 

18 frame, I don't want to break your train of 

19 thought. So, just keep that going. But we 

20 want to finish at 4:30, be out of the 

21 courthouse by 5:00. 

22 One other thing that I want to 

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1 remind you of, I have indicated in other 

2 hearings that I can't guarantee the 

3 confidentiality of information. The Chief 

4 Judge has taken it upon himself to 

5 unilaterally disseminate information contrary 

6 to language in the court orders and 

7 instructions to staff. So, if we run into 

8 something we would normally seal, we are going 

9 to have to consider how we want to do that. 

10 That's all I'm going to say on that. But 

11 let's just keep that in mind because normally 

12 I can seal things and I can protect the 

13 confidentiality of information but I have 

14 confronted the Chief Judge on it and he has, 

15 in essence, said, I will do what I want to do. 

16 So, that's where we are. 

17 Do we want to do an opening 

18 statement? 

19 MR. HARPER: I have just a brief 

2 0 opening, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

22 MR. HARPER: Just a brief opening. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, sure. I 

2 understand Mr. Dworkin is going to drag this 

3 on as long as possible because he and Troy 

4 have to go back to the fire-ridden state of 

5 California. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: Actually, Your 

7 Honor, before we start with the opening 

8 statements, as a preliminary matter, I have 

9 just given Your Honor, about ten minutes ago, 

10 our trial brief and I would like that to be 

11 made part of the record. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure, okay. We 

13 will do that at the appropriate time. 

14 MR. HARPER: And also following up 

15 on our discussion of confidentiality, I 

16 anticipate offering as evidence some 

17 photographs of some baggage tags that have 

18 passenger names, flight numbers, and dates on 

19 them. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

21 MR. HARPER: And I don't know if 

22 you want to address that now, redact some of 

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1 that information or as it comes up. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, one of the 

3 things I forgot to mention, I am very 

4 sensitive about confidentiality. Anything 

5 that we do can potentially go on the internet. 

6 And as I have indicated in other cases, when 

7 you present witnesses and testimony, I do not 

8 want social security numbers, dates of birth, 

9 home addresses or home or personal phone 

10 numbers for anybody who is a witness in a 

11 case. 

12 And getting back to the ID things, 

13 I have got the ability to redact. And I am 

14 certainly willing to redact just about 

15 anything, as long as it doesn't impact your 

16 case. If you don't care if I black out the 

17 entire tag, that is fine. If we get into an 

18 issue that the number may be necessary, then 

19 we will address that on --

20 I am kind of winging my way along 

21 this. If I send exhibits to the Office in 

22 Washington, D.C., I have no assurance that the 

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1 confidentialitywill be protected. So, I have 

2 got some cases where I have personal 

3 possession of the exhibits and they will go 

4 from me to the appellate section. They will 

5 not go through the Washington, D.C. Office. 

6 It is a sad state of affairs but that is where 

7 we are. 

8 Let's address it as we get to it 

9 Mr. Harper. 

10 Also, be aware when you put your 

11 exhibits in. I just finished a nine-day case 

12 in Chicago with about several hundred pages 

13 and we are going through redacting dates of 

14 birth and stuff. So far, it has taken me 

15 about four days because there is so many 

16 pages. But I would rather do that than have 

17 the information get on the internet. 

18 And the transcript, Mr. Ray, also 

19 goes on the internet. Sorry, Mr. Harper. 

20 MR. HARPER: We have been here 

21 before, Your Honor. Being overweight is 

22 unsafe, both for people and for planes. Obese 

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1 aircraft don't fly safely. 

2 Unlike people, you can't look at 

3 an aircraft and know if it is overweight. For 

4 an air carrier, the way the air carrier knows 

5 the aircraft is a safe weight before it 

6 departs is to follow its weight and balance 

7 program. And the evidence today will show 

8 that that is what SkyWest failed to do, follow 

9 its weight and balance program. 

10 At first glance, the evidence will 

11 sound like these are trivial paperwork 

12 violations. The evidence will show its agents 

13 incorrectly completed cargo load reports for 

14 the flights in question and that that 

15 inaccurate information was used to complete 

16 the load manifest for the flights. 

17 In 12 of the 14 flights, the 

18 evidence will show this resulted in the 

19 aircraft being operated with inaccurate load 

20 manifests. In the other two, SkyWest stumbled 

21 upon the correct aircraft weight, despite the 

22 incorrect cargo load reports. 

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1 The evidence will show that 

2 through happy chance and serendipity, looking 

3 back, it turns out that the flights turned out 

4 to have been operated within their weight and 

5 balance limitations. So, the good fortune is 

6 that everybody onboard the aircraft did not 

7 come to ill ends. 

8 We know that now, sitting here 

9 today, looking back at the past. But what you 

10 will hear today is that SkyWest could not have 

11 known that before the flights took place 

12 because the aircraft departed with load 

13 manifest calculated using the wrong data. And 

14 so here today, before a flight takes place is 

15 precisely when it is most important to know 

16 the weight and balance of the aircraft. 

17 We are going to hear about the 

18 risks to safety that rise when an aircraft is 

19 operated outside of its weight and balance 

20 envelope. The aircraft could stall and not 

21 recover, overrun the runway, run short of 

22 fuel, and have to make a forced landing, or 

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1 fail to meet a minimum climb gradient and 

2 collide into rising terrain. Those are all 

3 just different ways of saying the aircraft 

4 could crash. And because we want to make sure 

5 those things don't come to pass, the 

6 regulatory requirement is for the air carrier 

7 to know the weight and balance of the aircraft 

8 before it departs. 

9 And with that, I would like to 

10 call my first witness, Mr. Steven Allen. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 

12 you want to make an opening, reserve, or just 

13 say he is wrong? 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No, I would like to 

15 make a very brief opening statement. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: This is, as Mr. 

18 Harper correctly noted, this is a redo of the 

19 first heavy bag cases that went to hearing in 

20 October 2012 and in which initial decisions 

21 were issued in May 2013. In those cases, the 

22 same factual situations. The FAA sought 

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1 penalties of $35,000 per flight and Your Honor 

2 dismissed the allegations of violation of FAR 

3 121.693, which are alleged here again, and 

4 reduce the penalties from $35,000 per flight 

5 to $250 per flight. And the FAA did not 

6 appeal. These cases are siblings of those 

7 prior cases. They all arose at the same time 

8 as the three prior cases in the same date 

9 range back in 2011. These cases are three 

10 years' old. These cases arose along before 

11 the October 2012 hearing and long prior to the 

12 May 2013 initial decision. Somehow, however, 

13 the FA, I guess, expects a different result in 

14 these cases but really, nothing has changed. 

15 Now, there is no dispute that 

16 there was disparity between the number of 

17 i terns that were recorded on the cargo load 

18 reports or CLRs and the number of items that 

19 were observed by FAA inspectors being 

20 offloaded. 

21 But this case is really not about 

22 record errors. This case is really about 

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1 human errors. The evidence will show that 

2 there was no safety flight issue. Any weight 

3 discrepancies were de minimis. There was no 

4 effect on aircraft weight and balance, no 

5 effect on aircraft performance, no effect on 

6 SkyWest's mission to safely transport people 

7 and using the highest standard of care to the 

8 highest level of safety. 

9 Over this eight-month period of 

10 time, SkyWest safely carried something like 

11 440,000 passengers and carried millions of 

12 pieces of baggage, all without incident. The 

13 evidence will also show that SkyWest responses 

14 to these cases, as in the prior three cases, 

15 were responsible, appropriate, timely, and 

16 comprehensive. The evidence will show that 

17 SkyWest retrained its people, it revised its 

18 procedures and these revisions are ongoing. 

19 And it has been working with the FAA and with 

20 other carriers to make the system a little bit 

21 better. 

22 In short, there is nothing that 

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1 distinguishes these cases that should lead, in 

2 any way, to any different result from the 

3 prior cases. Thank you. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: We have got 

5 multiple cases. The Court doesn't care how 

6 you present them, as long as when I get to the 

7 point I have to write a decision, I can always 

8 differentiate. You can group them. You can 

9 do them separately. You can -- as long as 

10 wouldn't get there just so I can -- I am 

11 going to leave that to you, Mr. Harper. It is 

12 your case. 

13 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. It 

14 will be clear through my questioning which 

15 case we are discussing. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. It's 

17 just at my age, I get confused. 

18 Call your witness. 

19 MR. HARPER: Mr. Steven Allen. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Just a quick -- are 

22 we sequestering witnesses? 

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1 MR. HARPER: I have no objection 

2 if everybody stays in the courtroom. I don't 

3 think we have any cases where one of the 

4 witness's testimony might be influenced by 

5 other because they were observing. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's up to you 

7 all. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: That's fine. No 

9 need to sequester. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. Sir, 

11 you want to approach? 

12 Whereupon, 

13 STEVEN HARVEY ALLEN 

14 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

15 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

16 witness stand and was examined and testified 

17 as follows: 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

19 And just a reminder, gentlemen, as 

20 I indicated to Mr. Harper earlier, I have got 

21 a hearing disability. So, if I tell you to 

22 speak up, don't take it personally. I really 

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1 can't hear you. 

2 It's great in restaurants when I 

3 don't want to listen to what my wife has to 

4 say. I say, I'm sorry. 

5 Sir, would you stated your name 

6 for the record and spell your first and last 

7 name? 

8 THE WITNESS: Steven Harvey Allen. 

9 It is S-T-E-V-E-N, Allen, A-L-L-E-N. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. HARPER: 

13 Q Mr. Allen, could you briefly 

14 describe for us your background in aviation? 

15 A I've got over 20 years of flight 

16 instructor and airline pilot in both regional 

17 aircraft, international cargo aircraft, like 

18 a Boeing 747, with about 14,000 hours. 

19 Q What certificates and ratings do 

20 you hold? 

21 A I have got flight instructor 

22 ratings, commercial instrument, airline 

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1 transport pilot. 

2 Q Do you have any type ratings? 

3 A J31 or A and B110, A and B120, 

4 Boeing 737. 

5 Q What do you do for a living? 

6 A I am an aviation safety inspector. 

7 Q Who do you work for? 

8 A I work for the SkyWest Certificate 

9 Management Office. 

10 Q And how long have you worked 

11 there? 

12 A I have been with the FAA since 

13 September of 2002 and on the SkyWest 

14 certificate for ten years. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: So just so I 

16 understand, you work for the FAA but you are 

17 responsibility is to oversee SkyWest. 

18 THE WITNESS: For the least ten 

19 years 1 about. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. 

21 Because the way it was, I wasn 1 t sure whether 

22 you worked for SkyWest. 

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1 THE WITNESS: No, no. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's why I was 

3 sitting here. I couldn't understand why he 

4 was your first witness, Mr. Harper. 

5 BY MR. HARPER: 

6 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest 

7 Airlines in any way? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

10 SkyWest ln any way? 

11 A No, I haven't. 

12 J"UDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. That 

13 helps. 

14 BY MR. HARPER: 

15 Q Could you briefly describe your 

16 duties as an aviation safety inspector? 

17 A I have oversight and new 

18 inspections on SkyWest Airlines. 

19 Q I would like to turn your 

20 attention to FAA case number 2011-NM-060047 

21 before this court as DMS Number FAA-2012-0872. 

22 Are you familiar with this case? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q How is it that you are familiar 

3 with the case? 

4 A One of my inspections is a part of 

5 that case. 

6 Q Do you recall, did that inspection 

7 take place on March 8 of 2011? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Where did that inspection take 

10 place? 

11 A In Las Vegas, at the airport in 

12 Las Vegas. 

13 Q What was the purpose of the 

14 inspection? 

15 A I was performing an EPI or Element 

16 Performance Inspection on the outbound flight 

17 from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. 

18 Q Would that be Flight 4464 from Los 

19 Angeles to Las Vegas? 

20 A Right. That was ln the inbound, 

21 yes. 

22 Q As part of that inspection, did 

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1 you count the baggage that came off of the 

2 aircraft? 

3 A I counted the heavy weight bags. 

4 Q Do you recall how many heavy 

5 weight bags you counted? 

6 A Two. 

7 Q How did you recognize that the 

8 heavy bags were heavy bags? 

9 A They are required to have an 

10 orange, a large orange tag affixed to the 

11 luggage. If it has heavy written on it and, 

12 oftentimes, they put the amount of weight on 

13 it. 

14 Q Where were you standing when you 

15 counted the heavy bags? 

16 A I was at the bottom of the belt 

17 loader, the aft cargo area there. 

18 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

19 luggage as it came off the aircraft? 

20 A Yes, I was looking up at the 

21 baggage as it was being unloaded to take 

22 pictures. 

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1 Q And as part of your inspection, 

2 did you obtain any documents relative to the 

3 flight? 

4 A Yes, I obtained the cargo load 

5 report. 

6 Q And where did you get the cargo 

7 load report from? 

8 A From the inbound pilots, who are 

9 required to bring that with them to the 

10 completion of their flight. 

11 Q Did you speak to any SkyWest 

12 employees or contractors in Los Angeles that 

13 loaded the bags or completed the CLR? 

14 A Subsequently, the next day, I 

15 contacted Mr. Allen's delta station manager 

16 and debriefed him on what had gone on. 

17 Q You didn't obtain a copy of the 

18 COR from Los Angeles. Correct? 

19 A No. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so that I 

21 understand, this was an inbound flight from 

22 LAX to Vegas. 

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1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

3 THE WITNESS: I was out there to 

4 meet the aircraft to do my inspection from Las 

5 Vegas to Los Angeles. So, I was there to see 

6 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. 

8 THE WITNESS: the inbound 

9 offloading. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. I am 

11 repeating it just to make sure I understand. 

12 You went out there --

13 THE WITNESS: To meet it. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: to meet the 

15 flight that was going from Las Vegas to LAX 

16 and happened to meet the LAX-Vegas inbound, 

17 which is the subject. 

18 And Mr. Harper, at some point in 

19 your presentation I remember from the last 

20 case, the definitions of cargo and heavy bag 

21 and regular bags, if you could put that in the 

22 record. Do you understand what I am talking 

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1 about in terms of --

2 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. We 

3 will get there. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

5 MR. HARPER: In fact, I believe --

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I knew we would 

7 get there. I just --

8 MR. HARPER: If I am not mistaken, 

9 it is already in the record as a consequence 

10 of your taking judicial notice of the 

11 transcript in the previous hearings. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

13 MR. HARPER: But we will cover it 

14 again today, just to make sure. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Great . Thank you. 

16 MR. HARPER: Mr. Allen, if you 

17 could please flip to Tab C-5 in the binder in 

18 front of you. Identical binders have been 

19 provided to opposing counsel, the judge, and 

20 the court reporter. 

21 And the binder contains the 

22 exhibits we anticipate offering today. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for 

2 purposes of the record, what I do when the 

3 exhibits are admitted or presented is I put ID 

4 in pencil next to the exhibit number and then 

5 I draw a line through ID and put the date. It 

6 is as much for my records as anything else. 

7 BY MR. HARPER: 

8 Q Mr. Allen, do you recognize the 

9 document in Tab C-5? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What is it? 

12 A It is the copy of the cargo load 

13 report of that the pilots carry through the 

14 completion of the flight. 

15 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

16 A Yes. 

17 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

18 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-5 WAS 

19 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q If you could please turn to Tab C22 7. Do you recognize these documents? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q What are they? 

3 A What's that? 

4 Q What are they? 

5 A They are -- I took the pictures of 

6 the heavy bags that came off that inbound 

7 flight. 

8 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

9 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-7 WAS 

10 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

12 time, I would like to move what has been 

13 marked as Exhibit C-5 and C-7 for 

14 identification into evidence as Exhibit C-5 

15 and C-7. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: While we are 

19 there, Mr. Harper, let me ask you. With 

20 respect to the identification numbers, do we 

21 need those in the record? Or can I redact 

22 them, so to speak? Because you had brought 

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1 this up preliminarily. 

2 MR. HARPER: I think the exhibit 

3 numbers, you would want to keep as is. The 

4 bag tags 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what I am 

6 saying is 

7 MR. HARPER: The bag tags, I 

8 think, the tags themselves, I think maybe it 

9 would be best to redact the bar codes and the 

10 passenger names. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, the Court 

12 will do that. Any objection to me doing that, 

13 Mr. Dworkin? 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, C-5 and C-7 

16 for identification are received into evidence 

17 as C-5 and C-7. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

20 EXHIBIT C-5 AND C-7 WERE RECEIVED 

21 INTO EVIDENCE. ) 

22 MR. HARPER: I have a black marker 

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1 if you need it for redaction. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, do I. So, you 

3 learned from the Court. 

4 BY MR. HARPER: 

5 Q Mr. Allen, did the number of bags 

6 onboard the flight that you counted, was that 

7 number correctly reflected on the cargo load 

8 report? 

9 A No, there were no heavy bags on 

10 the report. 

11 MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 

12 further questions. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

16 Q Mr. Allen, I am Michael Dworkin. 

17 I represent SkyWest. Good morning. 

18 A Good morning. 

19 Q With respect to Exhibit C-5, this 

20 was the crew copy of the CLR. Is that 

21 correct? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q Okay. So, you never got the 

2 station copy of the CLR. 

3 A These are two parts. So, the 

4 station keeps one part and the pilots take the 

5 other part, until the completion of their 

6 flight. 

7 Q Okay, but you never got the 

8 station copy of the CLR? 

9 A I don't need to, no. 

10 Q Well, isn't there a provision in 

11 the SkyWest Weight and Balance Program that ln 

12 many cases for last minute bags, et cetera, 

13 that the CLR is amended by the station and 

14 they amend the station copy and it not 

15 necessarily amends the pilot copy of the CLR 

16 because of who already has that CLR? 

17 A They are supposed to do both. 

18 Q But you never obtained the station 

19 copy? 

20 A No. 

21 Q Okay. Now, on the CLR, this is a 

22 two-part form. Is that correct? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q One is the station copy. One is 

3 the flight crew copy. And on the back side of 

4 the station copy, is that blank or is there 

5 something there? 

6 A I don't recall. 

7 Q Have you ever -- did you bother 

8 looking to see if there was a back side to the 

9 CLR? 

10 A They normally have the charts they 

11 look up to determine the counts of the weight, 

12 extra weight. 

13 Q And on the back side of the CLRs, 

14 they also have little boxes to help you keep 

15 count. Correct? 

16 A Sure. Yes, but you know. 

17 Q But you didn't think it was 

18 necessary to get that backside of the station 

19 copy. Is that correct? 

2 0 A Correct. 

21 Q And now you were at Las Vegas 

22 because you were going to be flying on a 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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34 

1 SkyWest flight back to Los Angeles. Is that 

2 correct? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q You did a flight deck observation, 

5 jump seat? 

6 A That is correct. It was part of 

7 the EPI. It had to do with weight and 

8 balance, load manifest. So, I was 

9 concentrating on that area. 

10 Q So, while you were waiting to 

11 board the flight from Las Vegas to Los 

12 Angeles, what caused you to just simply decide 

13 to go count baggage? 

14 A Well, I was out there to meet the 

15 flight and the EPI inspection I was doing was 

16 related to the cargo weight and balance. 

17 Q Okay. And what is EPI? 

18 A Element Performance Inspection. 

19 Q And so when you arrived, let's 

20 see, this flight was on March 8, 2011. On 

21 March 9, you contacted David Allen. Is that 

22 correct? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q And who is David Allen? 

3 A He told me he was the Station 

4 Manager at Delta for Delta. 

5 Q Okay. Well, if this was the 

6 SkyWest discrepancy, why were you contacting 

7 Delta? 

8 A Because they do the baggage 

9 handling. It is a Delta connection flight 

10 operated by SkyWest. 

11 Q Okay. So, it was Delta who 

12 presumably prepared the CLR. 

13 A The rampers, yes. 

14 Q Delta's rampers? 

15 A Uh-huh. 

16 Q Okay. And was there any follow-up 

17 communication between you and Mr. Allen? 

18 A Yes, I called him the next day and 

19 debriefed him, which is typical. 

20 Q And he said he was going to get 

21 back to you? 

22 A I don't recall. He was generally 

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1 concerned and was going to talk to the 

2 rampers. 

3 Q Okay. Was there any follow-up 

4 discussion with Mr. Allen? 

5 A Not that I remember. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 

7 further questions. 

8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

9 BY MR. HARPER: 

10 Q Mr. Allen, was the flight you were 

11 inspecting operated by Delta? 

12 A No, it is operated by SkyWest 

13 Airlines. 

14 Q And if SkyWest was operating the 

15 flight, does that -- who controls the flight? 

16 A It is SkyWest's responsibility. 

17 Q And if it is a SkyWest flight, who 

18 is responsible for the safe conduct of the 

19 flight? 

20 A SkyWest Airlines. 

21 MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 

22 further questions. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 

2 MR. DWORKIN: No cross. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

4 instruct you are not to discuss your testimony 

5 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

6 flight. It is up to counsel whether you can 

7 remain the courtroom or not. 

8 All right, you can step down. 

9 MR. HARPER: Mr. Dworkin, would 

10 you want him subject to recall? 

11 MR. DWORKIN: No. 

12 MR. HARPER: Mr. Allen is from out 

13 of town. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

15 MR. HARPER: So, if it is all 

16 right with the Court, if he could be 

17 dismissed. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we just 

19 take two minutes to give you a chance to 

20 instruct the witness and he is free to leave. 

21 MR. HARPER: Okay, thank you. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. We 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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38 

1 will go off the record for just a minute, 

2 remembering it takes two seconds to go off the 

3 record. 

4 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 

5 went off the record at 9:34 a.m. 

6 and went back on the record at 

7 9:36a.m.) 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, call 

9 your next witness. 

10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

11 calls Mr. Adam Perkins. 

12 Whereupon, 

13 ADAM SCOTT PERKINS 

14 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

15 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

16 witness stand and was examined and testified 

17 as follows: 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

19 State your name for the record and 

20 spell your first and last name. 

21 THE WITNESS: My name is Adam 

22 Scott Perkins. The first name is A-D-A-M, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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39 

1 last name Perkins, P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. HARPER: 

5 Q Mr. Perkins, could you briefly 

6 describe your background in aviation? 

7 A Approximately 12 years of aviation 

8 experience from flight instructing to flying 

9 cargo. Six years of that was spent at 

10 Atlantic Southeast Airlines flying CRJ 

11 aircraft and ATR72. 

12 Q AT the time you flew for Atlantic 

13 Southeast Airlines, were they a subsidiary of 

14 SkyWest Airlines Incorporated? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Were you ever an employee of 

17 SkyWest Airlines itself? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

20 SkyWest Airlines? 

21 A No. 

22 Q Who do you currently work for? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A SkyWest Certificate Management 

2 Office. 

3 Q And how long have you worked for 

4 the FAA at SkyWest Certificate Management 

5 Office? 

6 A About three and a half years. 

7 Q What do you do for the CMO? 

8 A Aviation safety inspector. 

9 Q What does that entail? 

10 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we will 

11 stipulate as to the duties and 

12 responsibilities of an aviation safety 

13 inspector. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

15 BY MR. HARPER: 

16 Q Mr. Perkins, I would like to draw 

17 your attention to FAA Case Number 2011-NM18 060073 before this Court as DMS Number FAA19 2012-0868. Are you familiar with this case? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q How are you familiar with it? 

22 A I was the inspector that wrote the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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41 

1 case and performed the surveillance with the 

2 findings that were generated. 

3 Q Did that surveillance take place 

4 on June 2, 2011? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Where were you when you performed 

7 the surveillance? 

8 A At the Charlotte Douglas 

9 International Airport. 

10 Q What was the purpose of the 

11 surveillance? 

12 A I was conducting an EPI. for line 

13 station operations. 

14 Q What does that EPI is that 

15 Element Performance Inspection? 

16 A It's an Element Performance 

17 Inspection, which involves the weight and 

18 balance program for SkyWest Airlines. 

19 Q And as part of your surveillance 

20 in Charlotte on June 2, 2011, did you inspect 

21 Flight 5840 arriving ln Charlotte from 

22 Houston? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q As part of that inspection, did 

3 you count the baggage that was onboard the 

4 flight? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Do you happen to recall how many 

7 standard bags you counted as being aboard the 

8 flight? 

9 A I would have to reference the 

10 statement I made in the case for that number. 

11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, 

12 permission to approach the witness? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

14 MR. HARPER: I am handing 

15 approaching counsel, the court reporter, the 

16 judge, and the witness, a copy of the document 

17 that has been previously marked as Exhibit C18 100 for identification. 

19 BY MR. HARPER: 

20 Q Mr. Perkins, could you review that 

21 quietly to yourself and look up when you are 

22 finished? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A Okay. 

2 Q Do you now recall how many 

3 standard bags you counted as being onboard the 

4 aircraft? 

5 A Twenty-seven. 

6 Q And do you recall how many heavy 

7 bags you counted as being aboard the aircraft? 

8 I'm sorry. Strike that question. 

9 Do you recall how many plane side 

10 loaded bags were on the aircraft? 

11 A There were 20. 

12 Q Where were you standing when you 

13 counted the bags? 

14 A Next to the belt loader. 

15 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

16 baggage as it came off the aircraft? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Did you obtain any documents 

19 relevant to that flight? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q What documents. 

22 A The cargo load report and the load 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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44 

1 manifest. 

2 Q Did you obtain any of those 

3 documents from Houston? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Is there a particular reason you 

6 didn't get them from Houston? 

7 A I had the flight crews' copy of 

8 the CLR in Charlotte and there was no need to 

9 get that information. 

10 Q So, to understand, you obtained 

11 the CLR from the flight crew? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q How did you get a copy of load 

14 manifest? 

15 A Do an information request to 

16 SkyWest Airlines. 

17 Q If you could flip in the binder in 

18 front of you to the Tab marked C-1. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for the 

20 record, the CLR we are referring to means 

21 cargo load report. Is that correct? 

22 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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45 

1 BY MR. HARPER: 

2 Q Do you recognize the document at 

3 Tab C-1? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q What is it? 

6 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

7 report that I received in Charlotte. 

8 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

9 A Yes. 

10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

11 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-1 WAS 

12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

13 BY MR. HARPER: 

14 Q If you could turn now to page --

15 to Tab C-2 in the binder. Do you recognize 

16 this document? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What is it? 

19 A It's a copy of the load manifest I 

20 received from SkyWest. 

21 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

22 A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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46 

1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-2 WAS 

3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

5 time I would like to move what has been marked 

6 as Exhibit C-1 and C-2 for identification into 

7 evidence as C-1 and C-2. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is it one and two 

9 or one and three? 

10 MR. HARPER: One and two. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Complainant's 

13 1 and Complainant's 2 for identification are 

14 received into evidence as Complainant's 1 and 

15 2. 

16 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

17 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

18 EXHIBITS C-1 and C- 2 WERE RECEIVED 

19 INTO EVIDENCE. ) 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q Did the CLR correctly reflect the 

22 number of bags that you counted as being 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 onboard the aircraft? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Did the weight listed on the load 

4 manifest match up with the weight calculated 

5 on the CLR? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Would that mean that the weight 

8 listed on the load manifest was incorrect in 

9 light of the actual loading of the aircraft? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q I would like to turn your 

12 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM13 060038 before this Court as DMS Number FAA14 2012-06874. 

15 Are you familiar with this case? 

16 A Yes, I am. 

17 Q How are you familiar with it? 

18 A I was the inspector that wrote the 

19 case and performed the surveillance for it. 

20 Q Did that surveillance take place 

21 on March 3, 2011? 

22 A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Where did that surveillance take 

2 place? 

3 A At Salt Lake City International 

4 Airport. 

5 Q What was the purpose of the 

6 surveillance? 

7 A I was undergoing on-the-job 

8 training for line station operations and part 

9 of the training was to observe the weight and 

10 balance program for SkyWest. 

11 Q As part of that surveillance, did 

12 you count the cargo, the baggage that was 

13 onboard Flight 4553 from San Diego to Salt 

14 Lake City? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Do you happen to recall how many 

17 standard bags were onboard that flight? 

18 A If I could reference my inspection 

19 notes again, that would be helpful to remember 

20 that. 

21 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

22 approach the witness? 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

2 MR. HARPER: I am handing to 

3 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 

4 judge and the witness a document that has 

5 previously been marked as Exhibit C-101 for 

6 identification. 

7 BY MR. HARPER: 

8 Q Mr. Perkins, if you could review 

9 that document and let me know when you are 

10 finished. 

11 A Okay. 

12 Q Do you recall now how many 

13 standard bags were onboard Flight 4553? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q How many bags were onboard the 

16 flight? 

17 A There were 43. 

18 Q Standard bags? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q How many heavy bags were onboard 

21 Flight 4553? 

22 A Thirty. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q How did you recognize the heavy 

2 bags as being heavy? 

3 A There is a large orange tag that 

4 says heavy on the bag. 

5 Q Was there any other cargo onboard 

6 of note? 

7 A There was one live checked animal. 

8 Q Where were you standing when you 

9 determined how much cargo was onboard the 

10 plane? 

11 A Next to the belt loader. 

12 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

13 luggage that came off of the aircraft? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Did you obtain any documents 

16 relevant to this flight? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Which documents are those? 

19 A The cargo load report and the load 

2 0 manifest. 

21 Q Did you obtain any of those 

22 documents from San Diego, the origination 

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1 point of the flight? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Is there a reason you didn't 

4 obtain them from San Diego? 

5 A No. 

6 Q How did you get a copy of the 

7 cargo load report? 

8 A I obtained that from the flight 

9 deck crew after the flight. 

10 Q And where did you get the load 

11 manifest from? 

12 A Through an information request to 

13 SkyWest Airlines. 

14 Q If you could please turn to Tab C15 18 in the binder in front of you. 

16 Do you recognize that document? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What is it? 

19 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

20 report that I received in Salt Lake City. 

21 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

22 A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-18 WAS 

3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

4 BY MR. HARPER: 

5 Q And can you please turn to Tab C6 19? Do you recognize that document? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q What is it? 

9 A A copy of the load manifest for 

10 Flight 4553. 

11 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

12 manifest you received from SkyWest? 

13 A Yes. 

14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

15 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-19 WAS 

16 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

17 Q If you could turn to Tab C-20. Do 

18 you recognize these documents? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q What are they? 

21 A They are pictures that I took 

22 during my surveillance of the heavy bag tags. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Do they accurate reflect what you 

2 saw when you were taking the picture? 

3 A Yes. 

4 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

5 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-20 WAS 

6 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

7 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

8 time, we would like to move what has been 

9 previously marked as Complainant's 18, 19, and 

10 20 for identification into evidence as 

11 Complainant's 18, 19, and 20. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

13 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 18, 

15 19, and 20 marked for identification are 

16 received in evidence as Complainant's 18, 19, 

17 and 20. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

20 EXHIBITS C-18, C-19, and C-20 WERE 

21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Agent ID number doesn 1 t do me any good unless 

2 I have access to the database. Would that be 

3 correct? Look on the cargo load report. 

4 MR. HARPER: That is correct, 

5 unless you have access. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well so like with 

7 an airline pilots, let 1 s say I have got access 

8 to whatever database this number is in, that 

9 is just a string of numbers. 

10 MR. HARPER: Correct. Yes, sir. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 

12 BY MR. HARPER: 

13 Q Mr. Perkins, did the baggage on 

14 the CLR for this flight correctly reflect the 

15 baggage that was loaded on the aircraft? 

16 A No. 

17 Q Did the weight listed on the load 

18 manifest correlate with the weight calculated 

19 based on the CLR or the weight calculated 

20 based on what was actually onboard the 

21 aircraft? 

22 A The load manifest was correctly 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 calculated for the weight on the CLR. 

2 Q So it was incorrect based on the 

3 cargo that was on the aircraft. 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q I would like to turn your 

6 attention now to Flight 4540 from Missoula to 

7 Salt Lake City on March 3rd, 2011. Did you 

8 have an opportunity that day to inspect that 

9 flight? 

10 A Yes, I did. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: I'm sorry. Which 

12 flight? 

13 MR. HARPER: Flight 4540, Missoula 

14 to Salt Lake City. 

15 BY MR. HARPER: 

16 Q As part of that inspection, did 

17 you determine how much cargo was onboard the 

18 flight? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Was there any ballast onboard the 

21 flight? 

22 A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Do you recall how much ballast? 

2 A There were five 50-pound sandbags. 

3 Q That is a total of 250 pounds? 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q Was there any company material 

6 onboard the flight? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q How much company material? 

9 A There was approximately 100 

10 pounds. It was four bundles of magazines. 

11 Q You say approximately 100 pounds. 

12 How did you determine that it is about 100 

13 pounds? 

14 A It wasn't until I received the 

15 response from SkyWest that indicated what 

16 those bundles weighed. 

17 Q Where were you standing when you 

18 were evaluating how much cargo was onboard the 

19 plane? 

20 A Next to the belt loader. 

21 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

22 offloading? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Did you obtain any documents 

3 relative to this flight? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q What documents? 

6 A The cargo load report and the load 

7 manifest. 

8 Q Did you obtain any of those 

9 documents from Missoula, the origination point 

10 of the flight? 

12 Where did you get the CLR from? 

13 From the pilots. 

14 And how about the load manifest? 

15 From SkyWest Airlines. 

16 If you could please turn now to 

17 Do you recognize this document? 

19 What is it? 

20 It is a copy of the load manifest. 

21 Is it an accurate copy of the load 

22 that you obtained from the flight 

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1 crew? 

2 A I obtained the load manifest from 

3 SkyWest Airlines in Saint George. 

4 Q I'm sorry from SkyWest Airlines. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

7 cargo load report that you obtained from the 

8 flight cargo? 

9 A C-21 in my book here is a copy of 

10 the load manifest. The cargo load report is 

11 actually behind C-20. 

12 Q Okay. Tab C-20, then. At the 

13 bot tan of the page, is there an exhibit 

14 number? 

15 A Yes. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Wait a second. 

17 Jeff, I'm lost here. We are looking at the 

18 cargo load report for Flight 4540. Is that 

19 correct? 

20 MR. HARPER: Yes. At the bottom 

21 it is marked as C-21 but apparently it is 

22 behind Tab C-20 in his binder. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Oh, okay. Got it. 

2 BY MR. HARPER: 

3 Q So, I just want to confirm the 

4 document you are looking at, at the bottom, it 

5 is marked Exhibit C-21. 

6 A C-21, that is correct and it is 

7 the cargo load report. 

8 Q For Flight 4540 on March 3, 2011? 

9 A That is correct. 

10 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

11 cargo load report that you obtained from 

12 SkyWest personnel? 

13 A Yes, it is. 

14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

15 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-21 WAS 

16 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

17 Q Okay, if you could turn to the 

18 next tab. If you could confirm that at the 

19 bottom of the document it is marked Exhibit c20 22. 

21 A Yes, it is. It is marked C-22. 

22 Q Do you recognize this document? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A It is a copy of the load manifest 

4 that I received from SkyWest Airlines. 

5 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

6 A Yes. 

7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

8 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-22 WAS 

9 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

10 Q And if you could please turn now 

11 to the next tab. And I just want to confirm 

12 that at the bottom of the first page of that 

13 document, it is marked C-23. 

14 A Yes, it is. 

15 Q Do you recognize this document? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q What is it? 

18 A It is a picture I took of the 

19 magazine bundles and the ballast. 

20 Q Is it an accurate representation 

21 of what you saw that day? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-23 WAS 

3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

5 time, we would like to move what has been 

6 marked as Complainant's 21, 22, and 23 for 

7 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

8 21, 2 2, and 2 3 . 

9 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 21, 

12 22, and 23 for identification are received 

13 into evidence as Complainant's 21, 22, and 23. 

14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

15 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

16 EXHIBITS C-21, C-22, and C-23 WERE 

17 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

18 BY MR. HARPER: 

19 Q In that photo, are all of the 

20 ballast bags that you saw that day visible? 

21 A No. 

22 Q Did the information on the CLR 

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1 correctly reflect the cargo that you observed 

2 being offloaded from the plane? 

3 A No. 

4 Q I would like to turn your 

5 attention now to Flight 4445 from Phoenix to 

6 Salt Lake City. Did you inspect this flight 

7 on March 3, 2011? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q As part of that inspection, did 

10 you count the number of bags that came off of 

11 the flight? 

12 A Yes. 

l3 Q Do you recall how many standard 

14 bags were onboard Flight 4445? 

15 A Forty-three. 

16 Q How many heavy bags were onboard 

17 Flight 4445? 

18 A Three. 

19 Q How did you determine how many 

20 bags were onboard the aircraft? 

21 A I counted them. 

22 Q Where were you standing when you 

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1 counted the cargo? 

2 A Next to the belt loader. 

3 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

4 offloading? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Did you obtain any documents 

7 relative to this flight? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q What documents? 

10 A The cargo load report and the load 

11 manifest. 

12 Q I would like you to turn now to 

13 well, who did you obtain the CLR from? 

14 A From the pilots. 

15 Q And where did you get the load 

16 manifest from? 

17 A From an information request to 

18 SkyWest Airlines. 

19 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-24. 

20 If you could, confirm that at the bottom of 

21 the page it is marked Exhibit C-24. 

22 A There is no exhibit in C-24. 

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1 Q Okay, flip the page to C-25, Tab 

2 C-25. 

3 A Tab C-23 has the cargo load report 

4 marked Exhibit C-24. 

5 Q Okay. So, you are looking at what 

6 has been marked as Exhibit C-24 for 

7 identification. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Do you recognize this document? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What document is it? 

12 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

13 report. 

14 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

15 cargo load report you obtained from the flight 

16 crew? 

17 A Yes. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

19 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-24 WAS 

20 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

21 BY MR. HARPER: 

22 Q If you could turn to the next page 

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1 and confirm that at the bottom is it marked 

2 Exhibit C-25. 

3 A Yes, it is. 

4 Q Do you recognize this document? 

5 A Yes, it is a copy of the load 

6 manifest for Flight 4445. 

7 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

8 manifest you obtained from SkyWest? 

9 A Yes. 

10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

11 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-25 WAS 

12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

13 BY MR. HARPER: 

14 Q If you could turn now to the next 

15 page. 

16 A We're back on track. 

17 Q Can you confirm that this photo is 

18 marked as Exhibit C-26? 

19 A Yes, it is. 

20 Q Do you recognize these documents? 

21 A Yes, I do. 

22 Q What are they? 

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1 A They are photographs of heavy bag 

2 tags that I took. 

3 Q Do they accurately show what you 

4 saw that day? 

5 A Yes. 

6 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

7 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-26 WAS 

8 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

9 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

10 time, I would like to move what has been 

11 marked as Complainant's C-24, 25, and 26 for 

12 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

13 C-24, C-25, and C-26. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's C16 24, 25, and 26 for identificationare received 

17 into evidence as Complainant's 24, 25, and 26. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

20 EXHIBIT C-24 THROUGH C-26 WERE 

21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

22 BY MR. HARPER: 

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1 Q Mr. Perkins, I would like to turn 

2 your attention now to Flight 4613 from Omaha 

3 to Salt Lake City on March 3, 2011. Was this 

4 one of the flights you inspected on the third 

5 of March? 

6 A Yes, it was. 

7 Q What did you do as part of that 

8 inspection? 

9 A I observed and counted the 

10 offloading of cargo from the aircraft. 

11 Q Were there any live animals 

12 onboard the flight? 

13 A Yes, there were. 

14 Q How many? 

15 A Two. 

16 Q Where were you standing when you 

17 watched the luggage being offloaded? 

18 A I was standing next to the belt 

19 loader. 

20 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

21 process? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Did you obtain any documents 

2 relevant to this flight? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q What documents? 

5 A The cargo load report and the load 

6 manifest. 

7 Q Did you get any of those documents 

8 from somebody in Omaha, the origination of the 

9 flight? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Where did you get a copy of the 

12 cargo load report from? 

13 A From the pilots. 

14 Q And where did you get the load 

15 manifest from? 

16 A Through an information request to 

17 SkyWest Airlines. 

18 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-27, 

19 if you could verify that the document at the 

20 bottom is marked Exhibit C-27 for 

21 identification. 

22 A It is. 

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1 Q Do you recognize this document? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q What is it? 

4 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

5 report. 

6 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

7 cargo load report you received from the flight 

8 crew? 

9 A Yes. 

10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

11 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-27 WAS 

12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

13 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-28. 

14 Do you recognize this document? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q What is it? 

17 A It is a copy of the load manifest 

18 from the Flight 4613. 

19 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

20 manifest that you received from SkyWest for 

21 that flight? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

2 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-28 WAS 

3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

4 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

5 time, we would like to move what has been 

6 marked as Complainant's 2 7 and 2 8 for 

7 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

8 27 and 28. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 27 

11 and 28 for identification are received in 

12 evidence as Complainant's 27 and 28. 

13 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

14 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

15 EXHIBIT C-27 AND C-28 WERE 

16 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

17 MR. HARPER: No further questions 

18 at this time. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q Good morning, Mr. Perkins. 

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1 A Good morning. 

2 Q All the cases that you talked 

3 about with one exception, and that is Exhibit 

4 C-21, which is the CLR for the Missoula/Salt 

5 Lake Flight, all the CLRs that you obtained 

6 were from the flight crews. Is that correct? 

7 A That is correct. It is also 

8 correct for the Missoula flight as well. 

9 Q For the Missoula flight as well. 

10 Okay. So, ln no case did you obtain the 

11 station copy of the CLRs. 

12 A The station copy for Missoula I 

13 believe that was provided to me by SkyWest 

14 Airlines. 

15 Q Okay. And the station copy of the 

16 CLR, where is that? That hasn't been 

17 introduced into evidence yet. Has it? 

18 A I don't think so. 

19 Q Okay. So, was there a difference 

20 between the station copy and the crew copy of 

21 the CLR Exhibit 21? 

22 A Yes, there was. 

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1 Q And what was the difference? 

2 A The difference was on the station 

3 copy, the ballast indicated 250 pounds and the 

4 COMAT was 100 pounds. 

5 Q Okay. And so the CLR, the station 

6 copy of the CLR was in fact the correct CLR. 

7 Is that correct? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Okay. So, do you have some 

10 explanation as to why there are two CLRs for 

11 this flight? 

12 A I believe that the ballast was 

13 requested after the flight was loaded by the 

14 pilots. And a lot of times what happens is 

15 the station will make a correction to their 

16 copy and then the pilots will make a 

17 correction to their copy as well after they 

18 have been detached. 

19 Q Okay. But whether it is ballast 

20 or COMAT, we are still dealing with 350 

21 pounds. Correct? 

22 A That is correct. 

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1 Q And it is still in the tail 

2 section of the airplane, same compartment. 

3 A That is right. 

4 Q This is really a no harm/no foul. 

5 A It is a technical issue. 

6 Q Okay. It is just that somebody 

7 called it COMAT and the station called it 

8 ballast and COMAT. Correct? 

9 A Correct. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

11 Honor? 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q I am showing you what appears to 

15 be a cargo load report for Flight 4540. Can 

16 you identify that? 

17 A Yes, I would say that is an 

18 accurate representation of a cargo load 

19 report. 

20 Q Okay. And is that the station21 corrected copy of the cargo load report for 

22 4540? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you going to 

3 have more than one exhibit, Mr. Dworkin? 

4 MR. DWORKIN: Pardon me? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I am just trying 

6 to figure out how to number this. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. I think what 

8 maybe the best way to do to it would be, since 

9 that was Exhibit C-21, let's make this R-21, 

10 so it corresponds. 

11 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

12 TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBIT R-21 WAS 

13 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

14 MR. DWORKIN: I ask that this be 

15 received as Exhibit R-21, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper? 

17 MR. HARPER: No objections. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Respondent's 

19 21 for identification is received into 

20 evidence as Respondent's 21. 

21 

22 

(WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 EXHIBIT R-21 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

2 EVIDENCE.) 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q Now, the CLR is a multi-part form. 

5 Is that correct? 

6 A That is correct. 

7 Q And on the first page of the CLR, 

8 which is the top copy, it is like NCR paper. 

9 Right? You know the writing on the first page 

10 goes through to the second one. 

11 A That is a carbon copy of it. 

12 Q That is a carbon, okay. 

13 On the first page of the CLR, 

14 there is a back side to that CLR. Is there 

15 not? 

16 A I believe so. 

17 Q Okay. Did you, ln the course of 

18 your investigation, did you attempt to obtain 

19 the back sides of the original CLRs? 

20 A No, I did not. 

21 Q Okay, do you know what is on the 

22 back side of the CLR? 

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1 A It is a format to help the ramper 

2 count the bags, his numbers. 

3 Q Okay. Why does the ramper need 

4 help to count the bags? 

5 A I suppose it would be easy to lose 

6 track in your head. It gives him a way to 

7 manually keep track of bags as they go on the 

8 airplane. 

9 Q Okay. When you were counting all 

10 these bags coming off, what, four or five 

11 flights, did you ever lose count of the bags? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Okay. How did you count them? 

14 Did you have a clicker? Do you have a 

15 scanner? 

16 A I would typically make notes, 

17 checkmarks as each bag comes off. 

18 Q Okay, you didn't have to do any 

19 recounts? 

20 A No. 

21 Q How long did it take you to count 

22 these bags on each of these flights? 

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1 A I don't recall exactly. 

2 Q Five minutes, ten minutes, a half 

3 hour? 

4 A I would say five to ten minutes. 

5 Q Was anybody working with you? 

6 A It depends on which case you are 

7 speaking of. 

8 Q In any of these cases? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. So, well, with respect to 

11 the Flight 4540 at Salt Lake City, this is the 

12 43 standard bags, the three heavy bags, who 

13 was working with you on that? 

14 A It was receiving on-the-job 

15 training from Andrew Ayers. 

16 Q Okay. And so were you both 

17 counting bags? 

18 A I don't recall. 

19 Q Or was one person counting and the 

20 other person recording? 

21 A I don't recall exactly. 

22 Q Okay. How about the flight from 

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1 Missoula to Salt Lake City, another 4540, that 

2 is the ballast case? Was anybody working with 

3 you on that flight? 

4 A So all the flights in Salt Lake I 

5 was receiving on-the-job training with Andrew 

6 Ayers. 

7 Q And so how did you divide your 

8 responsibilities with respect to counting 

9 baggage? 

10 A I don't recall exactly. From what 

11 I remember, I think I was the one counting 

12 bags and Andrew was the one that obtained the 

13 CLR from the crew while I was counting. 

14 Q And the load manifests that you 

15 obtained, you didn't get it from the crew, you 

16 got it from SkyWest Corporate? 

17 A That is correct. 

18 Q Okay. Now, with respect to 

19 let's go back to Exhibit C-1 and C-2. Do you 

20 have them in front of you? 

21 A Yes. I'm looking at C-1. 

22 Q Okay. By the way, before you go 

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1 to that, with respect to you took pictures of 

2 the bags. How come you didn't take pictures 

3 of the live animals? 

4 A I'm not sure. 

5 Q Okay. And what kind of live 

6 animals were they? Were they dogs, cats, 

7 horses, pigs? 

8 A I don' t recall . 

9 Q Now, there are three ways to carry 

10 an animal on a SkyWest flight. Right? 

11 A I believe there is two ways. 

12 Q Well, if you have a service 

13 animal, you can bring that service animal 

14 onboard the aircraft. 

15 A That is correct. Yes, that is the 

16 third way. 

17 Q Okay. As a matter of fact, if you 

18 bring a service animal onboard the aircraft, 

19 the animal is included in the passenger 

20 weight. So, that animal has a weight of zero 

21 under the weight and balance program. 

22 Correct? 

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1 A I can't say for sure. 

2 Q You're not familiar with the 

3 weight and balance program? 

4 A I'm not familiar with the service 

5 animal weight but I believe you are correct. 

6 Q Okay. So, if somebody brought, 

7 oh, a common service animal is a golden 

8 retriever or a Labrador retriever, if somebody 

9 brought a 70-pound golden retriever onboard of 

10 SkyWest flight as a service animal, that 70-

11 pound animal would have a weight of zero. 

12 Correct? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. Now, let's say a passenger 

15 were to bring their pet golden retriever or 

16 Labrador retriever onboard a SkyWest flight, 

17 not a service animal, so it would go as -- the 

18 dog would go as cargo. Is that correct? 

19 A That is correct. 

20 Q Okay. So a 70-pound dog, plus the 

21 kennel would go as heavy baggage? 

22 A I believe it is either counted as 

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1 checked baggage or it is the actual weight of 

2 the animal itself as cargo. 

3 Q Okay, so in other words, again, 

4 one way to bring an animal, as ide from onboard 

5 as a service animal, is to bring the animal as 

6 baggage, in which case under the SkyWest 

7 program, the animal and the container either 

8 get a weight of 30 or a weight of 60, 

9 depending upon how big the animal is. 

10 Correct? 

11 A I believe it is either 30 pounds 

12 or the actual weight of the animal itself but 

13 with the kennel as cargo. 

14 Q But there is another means of 

15 counting the animal's weight and that is, if 

16 the animal is shipped straight. Correct? 

17 A Right. That is the way that I was 

18 just explaining. 

19 Q Okay. So, in other words, if the 

20 animal is cargo, depending upon the size of 

21 the animal and its kennel, it could either be 

22 30 pounds or 60 pounds. Correct? 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q Okay. So, in other words, if you 

3 have the 70-pound golden retriever and you 

4 have a 20-pound kennel, that is 90 pounds, 

5 that is treated as baggage, then it is 

6 recorded as 60 pounds and it is perfectly 

7 legal. Correct? Because that is what the 

8 weight and balance program says. Right? 

9 A To be honest, I 'm not sure. I 

10 think, in that situation, it would be counted 

11 as freight. And it would be the actual weight 

12 of the animal plus their container. 

13 Q No question. If you have an 

14 animal that is sent as freight, I am not 

15 flying on the airplane, I just want to deliver 

16 this golden retriever to my brother on the 

17 other side of the country. I am going to ship 

18 the animal as freight. Then, it is actual 

19 weight of the animal plus the weight of the 

20 kennel or the container and it is actual 

21 weight. Correct? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q Okay. But if I am traveling as a 

2 passenger on a SkyWest animal -- on SkyWest 

3 Airlines and I want to bring my pet, then I 

4 check the pet as baggage . And as baggage, it 

5 is either 30 pounds or 60 pounds. Correct? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q So, even though I have my 70-pound 

8 pet plus a 20-pound kennel which weighs 90 

9 pounds, it is correctly, under the weight and 

10 balance program, recorded as 60 pounds. 

11 A In that situation, yes, just like 

12 a heavy bag. 

13 Q Okay. But if it were a service 

14 animal, it would be zero. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q Now, with respect to these live 

17 animals on the CLR, as you sit here today, do 

18 you know whether they were service animals, 

19 whether they were cargo, or whether they were 

20 freight? 

21 A I don't believe they were service 

22 animals because they were in the cargo 

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1 compartment. So, they were either checked 

2 baggage or freight. 

3 Q Well --

4 A I don't know for sure. 

5 Q Okay. Well, for instance, 

6 somebody who needs a service animal, I mean, 

7 let's face it, the CRJ cabins are a little 

8 tight and somebody, although they need a 

9 service animal, may not want to have that dog 

10 sitting where his feet would normally go and 

11 might opt to check that animal as baggage. 

12 Correct? 

13 A I don't think so. 

14 Q Now, let's go back to C-1 and C-2. 

15 Pardon me for my digression. We have the CLR 

16 for Flight 5840 and we have the C-2 is the 

17 load manifest. So, where do the numbers from 

18 the cargo load report appear in Exhibit C-2 in 

19 the load manifest? 

20 A Well, if you were to add the 

21 weights from the CLR, then the weights that 

22 were on the CLR would equal the weight 

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1 indicator where it says cargo. 

2 Q Well, I am looking at Exhibit C-1 

3 and it shows -- it is a really, really lousy 

4 copy but what do you see as the weight of the 

5 bags? 

6 A From Exhibit C-1? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A There is not a weight indicated. 

9 There is a count indicated. 

10 Q Okay. So, from that count, I mean 

11 as you sit here today, can you say that the--

12 if you took the baggage count on C-1 and added 

13 it up times 30, times 60, whatever, you would 

14 get the exact cargo weight number that is in 

15 C-2? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And you have actually done that? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q So, there are you have 19 

2 0 standard checked bags and 15 plane side valet 

21 items. So, that is a total of 34. Is that 

22 correct? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Thirty-four times thirty? 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q Okay and what does that come out 

5 to? 

6 A I'd probably need a calculator to 

7 tell you that. 

8 Q But that was your methodology in 

9 each of these cases. Is that correct? 

10 A Correct. And there is also 92 

11 pounds of freight that the CLR indicated. 

12 Q Okay. And was that your 

13 methodology with respect to Flight 4540 and 

14 Exhibits C-18 and C-19? You basically took 

15 the numbers of i terns reflected in the CLR, 

16 multiplied it times the corresponding weight, 

17 and compared that number to the cargo weight 

18 ln the load manifest? 

19 A That is correct. 

20 Q And likewise, without wasting a 

21 lot of time, you did the same methodology for 

22 C-21 and C-22, C-24 and C-25, and C-27, and cNEAL R. GROSS 

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1 28? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did -- I realize that SkyWest is 

4 the air carrier. They are responsible for 

5 what goes on in their air planes. But in each 

6 of these cases, did SkyWest personnel load the 

7 airplanes and complete the CLRs? 

8 A No. 

9 Q Who did? 

10 A There is five different stations 

11 we are talking about here. Probably various 

12 contractors. I can't tell you exactly who 

13 they were. 

14 Q Okay. Did other airlines load the 

15 SkyWest flights and prepare the CLRs? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q What other airlines? 

18 A I believe the flight that 

19 originated from Houston to Charlotte. That 

20 Houston, I believe was Continental. The other 

21 ones, I would just be guessing. I don't know 

22 for sure. 

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1 Q Okay. In connection with these 

2 flights, did you go back to the originating 

3 stations and say hey, something here is not 

4 right? You prepared a CLR which didn't 

5 correspond to the bags that I saw coming off 

6 the airplane. 

7 A No, I let SkyWest do that. 

8 Q With respect to the heavy bags, 

9 other than the fat that they had tags on them, 

10 how do you know they were heavy? 

11 A Some of the heavy baggage, the 

12 act.ual luggage tag will say heavy or 

13 overweight on it. 

14 Q Okay, here is why. I travel a 

15 lot. And sometimes my bags have a heavy bag 

16 tag on them. Okay? And I don't remove them. 

17 And when I check in on the next flight, in 

18 many cases, the customer service agent really 

19 doesn't remove them. So, even though my bag 

20 may not be heavy, it still has the tag. 

21 Did you consider that possibility? 

22 A No, I did not. 

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1 Q Is there a possibility that the 

2 people who loaded the aircraft at each of 

3 these stations may very well have correctly 

4 counted what they put on the aircraft but 

5 these other bags had been on the aircraft from 

6 a previous leg? 

7 A I would say that is a remote 

8 possibility because part of the loading 

9 agent's responsibility is to check the cargo 

10 bin before they begin loading to make sure 

11 that doesn't happen. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 

13 further questions. 

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. HARPER: 

16 Q Mr. Perkins, were any of the 

17 flights that you inspected operated by Delta 

18 Airlines? 

19 A No. 

20 Q Were any of them operated by 

21 United? 

22 A No. 

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1 Q How about Alaska? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Continental? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Who operated all of the flights 

6 that you inspected? 

7 A SkyWest Airlines. 

8 Q Now under SkyWest weight and 

9 balance program, Mr. Dworkin discussed at 

10 length how live animals are documented in 

11 terms of how much they weigh. Is there 

12 anything else when it comes to a live animal 

13 that has to be done on the cargo load report 

14 when it comes to live animals, regardless of 

15 how they are loaded into the cargo bin? 

16 A If there is live animals in the 

17 cargo compartment, then the loading agents 

18 should circle live animal and indicate which 

19 bin they are in. 

20 Q Mr. Perkins, have you, yourself, 

21 ever flown with any checked baggage? 

22 A Can you repeat the question? 

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1 Q Have you, when you were flying, 

2 have you ever taken an airline flight as a 

3 passenger? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And on that flight, have you 

6 checked on any of those flights, have you 

7 checked baggage? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q When you check your baggage, does 

10 the agent remove any tags that were on the 

11 baggage from an earlier flight? 

12 A Yes. 

13 MR. HARPER: Thank you. No 

14 further questions. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: No re-cross, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, are 

18 you going to keep this witness or is he 

19 excused? Your call. 

20 MR. HARPER: He is excused, Your 

21 Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Sir, I 

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1 am going to instruct you not to discuss your 

2 testimony with anybody prior to conclusion of 

3 the hearing. Subject to Mr. Harper's 

4 instructions, you are free to go, which means 

5 you can leave the courthouse. 

6 You may step down. 

7 MR. PERKINS: What do I do with 

8 this stuff? 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN : Just leave all 

10 that there. 

11 It is 25 after. I know, I have 

12 been doing this for more days than you can 

13 count. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: But it is accurate 

15 two times a day. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: That is probably 

17 more accurate than most of our watches. 

18 I have got about 23 after. Let's 

19 take a short break and then we will come back 

2 0 on the record. There are no witnesses on the 

21 stand, so I won't do an instruction. So, 

22 let's go off the record. 

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1 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 

2 went off the record at 10:23 a.m. 

3 and went back on the record at 

4 10:43 a.m.) 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back on 

6 the record. 

7 Mr. Harper, you want to call your 

8 next witness? 

9 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 

10 McKenna. 

11 Whereupon, 

12 JAMES HOWARD MC KENNA, JUNIOR 

13 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

14 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

15 witness stand and was examined and testified 

16 as follows: 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

18 State your name for the record and spell your 

19 first and last name. 

20 THE WITNESS: My name is James 

21 Howard McKenna, Junior. The first name is J--

22 A-M-E-S, last name M-C, capital K-E-N-N-A. 

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. HARPER: 

3 Q Mr. McKenna, could you briefly 

4 describe your background in aviation? 

5 A I have a little over 27 years in 

6 aviation, four military and seven years in FAA 

7 surveillance, and another 16 in commercial in 

8 maintenance. 

9 Q Do you hold any airman 

10 certificates? 

11 A I do. I have an airframe and 

12 powerplant certificate that I have had since 

13 1990. 

14 Q What do you do for a living? 

15 A I am an aviation safety inspector, 

16 geographic inspector. I have surveillance 

17 activities over SkyWest Airlines, Certificate 

18 Management Office. 

19 Q How long have you worked for the 

20 worked for the FAA? 

21 A Coming up on seven years in July. 

22 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest 

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1 airlines in any way? 

2 A No, sir. 

3 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

4 SkyWest Airlines in any way? 

5 A No, sir. 

6 Q I would like to turn your 

7 attention to FAA Case Number 2011-NM-060047 

8 before this Court as DMS Number FAA-2012-0872. 

9 Are you familiar with this case? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q How are you familiar with it? 

12 A One of the enforcement sent it as 

13 a result on one of my inspections. 

14 Q Did that inspection take place on 

15 March 14, 2011? 

16 A Yes, it did. 

17 Q Where were you when you performed 

18 that inspection? 

19 A Sioux Falls Regional Airport in 

20 South Dakota. 

21 Q What was the purpose of that 

22 inspection? 

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1 A Cargo handling inspection, EPI. 

2 Q I would like to turn your 

3 attention to Flight 6960 from Denver to Sioux 

4 Falls. Was that one of the flights you 

5 inspected on that date? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q As part of that inspection, did 

8 you count the luggage that was onboard Flight 

9 6960? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q Do you recall how many heavy bags 

12 were onboard Flight 6960? 

13 A Yes, sir. 

14 Q How many? 

15 A There was one. 

16 Q How did you recognize that it was 

17 a heavy bag? 

18 A It had an orange tag marked heavy 

19 attached to the bag itself. 

20 Q Where were you standing when you 

21 were counting the cargo? 

22 A To the rear of the cargo loader. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

2 cargo as it came off of the plane? 

3 A Yes, I did. 

4 Q Did you obtain any documents 

5 relevant to that flight? 

6 A Yes, sir, I did. 

7 Q What documents? 

8 A The cargo load report. 

9 Q Did you get the cargo load report 

10 from the originating station in Denver? 

11 A No, sir, I did not. 

12 Q Who did you get the cargo load 

13 report from? 

14 A From the flight crew. 

15 Q I would like you to turn to Tab C16 13 in the binder in front of you. And during 

17 the break, I did check to make sure that all 

18 the exhibits are now under their correct tabs. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. Did 

20 you double-check mine? 

21 MR. HARPER: I did not double22 check yours, Your Honor. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, well, just 

2 do that at your convenience. 

3 BY MR. HARPER: 

4 Q Mr. McKenna, do you recognize the 

5 document that has been marked Exhibit C-13 for 

6 identification? 

7 A Yes, sir, I do. 

8 Q What is it? 

9 A It is a cargo load report for 

10 flight 6960 that originated in Denver and 

11 arrived in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. 

12 Q Is it the original or a copy? 

13 A This is a copy. 

14 Q Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 

15 you obtained from the flight crew? 

16 A Yes, it is. 

17 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

18 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-13 WAS 

19 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-15, 

22 do you recognize this document? 

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1 A Yes, sir, I do. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A This would be a photograph of the 

4 heavy tag that was attached to the bag, as 

5 well as the bag tag. 

6 Q And if you could, just turn the 

7 page. There is multiple pages. 

8 A The second page is a photo of a 

9 bag tag that I took also. 

10 Q Do these photos accurately reflect 

11 what you saw that date? 

12 A Yes, sir. 

13 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

14 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-15 WAS 

15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

16 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

17 time, we would like to move what has been 

18 marked as Complainant 1 s Exhibit 13 and 15 for 

19 identification into evidence as Complainant 1 s 

20 13 and 15. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

22 Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 13 

2 and 15 for identification are received into 

3 evidence as Complainant's 13 and 15. 

4 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

5 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

6 EXHIBITS C-13 AND C-15 WERE 

7 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

8 MR. HARPER: And on Complainant's 

9 C-15 I would note that the passenger's name is 

10 visible and I would suggest that --

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, I will redact 

12 all that. I think just what I will try to do 

13 is I will redact all of the -- with exception 

14 of the flight number. I don't think we care 

15 about flight number, which I assume is 6960. 

16 Is that correct. 

17 MR. HARPER: I think the flight 

18 number would probably be the most relevant 

19 piece of information. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I will 

21 redact all of the other numbers and if I see 

22 any name, I will redact it. Can the bar code 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 actually be read by a scanner and give any 

2 meaningful information? 

3 MR. HARPER: I don't know the 

4 answer to that question, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Then, I will make 

6 sure you won't be able to get any meaningful 

7 information off of it. 

8 So, Complainant's 13 and 15 for 

9 identification are received into evidence as 

10 Complainant's 13 and 15. 

11 BY MR. HARPER: 

12 Q Mr. McKenna, did the cargo load 

13 report you obtained for the flight correctly 

14 reflect the number of heavy bags that you 

15 observed as being on the aircraft? 

16 A No, sir, it did not. 

17 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: No cross, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Well, actually 

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

2 Q This is the flight crew copy of 

3 the CLR. Is that correct? 

4 A Yes, sir, it is. 

5 Q You did not obtain the station 

6 copy? 

7 A No, sir, I did not. 

8 Q You did not attempt to obtain the 

9 station copy. 

10 A No, Slr, I did not. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

12 questions. 

13 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

17 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

18 hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper as to whether 

19 you have to remain for the remainder of the 

20 hearing. The Court excuses you. 

21 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 

2 2 Aaron Perkins . 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Up here. 

2 MR. PERKINS: Good morning, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 Whereupon, 

5 AARON PERKINS 

6 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

7 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

8 witness stand and was examined and testified 

9 as follows: 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

11 State your name for the record and 

12 spell your first and last name. 

13 THE WITNESS: My name is Aaron 

14 Perkins. The first name is A-A-R-0-N, last 

15 name Perkins, P-E-R-K-I-N-S. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Proceed, counsel. 

17 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

18 BY MR. HARPER: 

19 Q Mr. Perkins, could you briefly 

20 describe your background in aviation? 

21 A A former airline pilot experienced 

22 both domestically and internationally. The 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 last position I held was a CRJ captain before 

2 the FAA. 

3 Q What airlines have you flown for? 

4 A I flew for Scenic Airlines, Air 

5 Wisconsin Airlines here domestically. 

6 Overseas, two companies; one called Arik Air 

7 and other place called ACAS. 

8 Q What certificates and ratings do 

9 you hold? 

10 A I hold an FAA TP, airline 

11 transport pilot certificate and a certified 

12 flight instructor certificate. 

13 Q What type ratings? 

14 A I hold a CL-65 type rating and an 

15 ERJ-170, ERJ-190 type. 

16 Q What do you do for a living now? 

17 A I'm an FAA aviation safety 

18 instructor. 

19 Q How long have you worked for the 

20 FAA? 

21 A I was hired February 2011. 

22 Q What office are you assigned to? 

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1 A The SkyWest Certificate Management 

2 Office. 

3 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

4 SkyWest Airlines in any way? 

5 A No. 

6 Q I would like you to turn your 

7 attention now to FAA Case Number 2012-NM8 060014 before this Court as DMS Number FAA9 2013-0619. 

10 Are you familiar with this case? 

11 A Yes, I am. 

12 Q How are you familiar with it? 

13 A This is a case that I wrote 

14 following surveillance on a SkyWest aircraft. 

15 Q Did that surveillance take place 

16 on November 16, 2011? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Where did you perform that 

19 surveillance? 

20 A Rock Springs Airport. 

21 Q Where is Rock Springs Airport? 

22 A Wyoming. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q What was the purpose of the 

2 surveillance? 

3 A The purpose was to surveil SkyWest 

4 Airlines' weight and balance program. 

5 Q As part of that surveillance, did 

6 you perform inspection on Flight 5449 from 

7 Denver to Rock Springs? 

8 A Yes, I did. 

9 Q Did you count the baggage onboard 

10 that flight as part of your inspection? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q How many heavy bags were onboard 

13 the flight? 

14 A There was one heavy bag. 

15 Q How did you know that was a heavy 

16 bag? 

17 A The heavy bags are clearly marked 

18 with an orange tag that says heavy. And those 

19 get affixed to baggage weighing between 51 

20 pounds and 99. 

21 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

22 cargo as it came off of the aircraft? 

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1 A Yes, I did. 

2 Q Did you obtain any documents 

3 relevant to the flight? 

4 A I did. I obtained a cargo load 

5 report from the captain upon arrival. 

6 Q And did you any other 

7 documents? 

8 A I obtained the load manifest from 

9 SkyWest headquarters a few days' after the 

10 flight. 

11 Q Did you obtain any of those 

12 documents from any personnel in Denver, the 

13 origination point of the flight? 

14 A No, I didn't. 

15 Q I would like you to turn to what 

16 has been marked as Tab C-34 in the binder in 

17 front of you. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: I'm sorry. What 

19 number, Jeff? 

20 MR. HARPER: Thirty-four. 

21 BY MR. HARPER: 

22 Q Do you recognize this document? 

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1 A Yes, I do. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A This is the cargo load report I 

4 obtained from the captain of SkyWest Flight 

5 5449. 

6 Q Is it the original or a copy? 

7 A This is a copy. 

8 Q Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 

9 you obtained from the captain of the flight? 

10 A Yes, it is. 

11 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

12 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-34 WAS 

13 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

14 BY MR. HARPER: 

15 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-35. 

16 Do you recognize this document? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q What is it? 

19 A This is the load manifest that was 

20 prepared by the crew of SkyWest Flight 5449. 

21 Q Is it the original or a copy? 

22 A This is a copy. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Is it an accurate copy? 

2 A Yes, it is. 

3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

4 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-35 WAS 

5 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

6 BY MR. HARPER: 

7 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-36. 

8 Do you recognize this document? 

9 A I do. 

10 Q What is it? 

11 A This is a picture that I took of 

12 the heavy bag that was offloaded Flight 5449. 

13 Q Does it accurately reflect what 

14 you saw when you took the photo? 

15 A Yes, it does. 

16 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

17 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-36 WAS 

18 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

19 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

20 time, we would like to move what has been 

21 previously marked as Complainant's 34, 35, and 

22 36 for identification into evidence as 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Complainant's 34, 35, and 36. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 34, 

5 3 5, and 3 6 are received into evidence as 

6 Complainant's 34, 35, and 36. 

7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

8 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

9 EXHIBITS C-34 through C-36 WERE 

10 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

11 BY MR. HARPER: 

12 Q Mr. Perkins, did the cargo load 

13 report for this flight correctly reflect the 

14 baggage that you observed as being onboard the 

15 aircraft? 

16 A No, it didn't. 

17 Q What was the difference? 

18 A The difference was one heavy bag. 

19 Q That means the heavy bag was not 

20 shown on the cargo load report? 

21 A The heavy bag was not shown on the 

22 cargo load report. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

2 Your Honor. 

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

5 Q Did you count the total number of 

6 pieces coming off the airplane? 

7 A I did, sir. 

8 Q Okay. So, the CLR, Exhibit C-34, 

9 shows -- it is poor copy but it shows about 27 

10 pieces that came off the aircraft. 

11 A That is correct. 

12 Q And how many pieces came off the 

13 aircraft, according to your observation? 

14 A Twenty-eight. 

15 Q Twenty-eight. So, it wasn't a 

16 matter of the heavy bag was treated as a 

17 standard bag but there were actually 28 bags 

18 that came off the airplane. 

19 A That is correct, sir. 

20 MR . DWORKIN : Okay, no further 

21 questions. 

22 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Honor. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

3 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

4 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

5 hearing. Subject to Mr. Harper's 

6 instructions, you are free to go. 

7 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

8 time, I would like to call Michelle 

9 Wallentine. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: Case number? 

11 MR. HARPER: If you would give me 

12 just a second. 2012-869 and 2012-873 and 

13 2013-0617. 

14 Whereupon, 

15 MICHELE WALLENTINE 

16 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

17 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

18 witness stand and was examined and testified 

19 as follows: 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

21 State your name for the record and 

22 spell your first and last name for the record. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 THE WITNESS: Michele Wallentine, 

2 M-I-C-H-E-L-E, W-A-L-L-E-N-T-I-N-E. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

5 BY MR. HARPER: 

6 Q Ms. Wallentine, could you briefly 

7 describe your background in aviation? 

8 A Yes. I worked for 3 0 years in 

9 working for the Air Force Reserves and as a 

10 civil servant for the Air Force. 

11 Q Who do you work for now? 

12 A I work for the Federal Aviation 

13 Administration in Denver, Colorado. 

14 Q What do you do for the FAA? 

15 A I'm an aviation safety inspector. 

16 Q How long have you been with the 

17 FAA? 

18 A Thirteen years. 

19 Q Has all that time been spent as an 

20 aviation safety inspector? 

21 A Yes, it has. 

22 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 any way? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

4 SkyWest? 

5 A Never. 

6 Q I would like to turn your 

7 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM8 060072 before this Court as DMS Number FAA9 2012-0869. Are you familiar with this case? 

10 A I am. 

11 Q How are you familiar with it? 

12 A I was the inspector on-site when 

13 the event incident occurred. 

14 Q The date the incident occurred, as 

15 you described it, was that May 5, 2011? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q What were you doing that day for 

18 the FAA? 

19 A I was assisting the SkyWest 

20 Certificate Management Office ln doing 

21 surveillance on SkyWest Airlines. 

22 Q Did that surveillance take place 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 in Colorado Springs? 

2 A Yes, it did. 

3 Q What was the purpose of the 

4 surveillance? 

5 A It was to ensure that the amount 

6 of cargo and baggage unloaded on the aircraft 

7 matched the CLR. 

8 Q I would like to turn your 

9 attention now to Flight 1160 from Houston to 

10 Colorado Springs. Was this one of the flights 

11 that you performed surveillance on? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q As part of that surveillance, did 

14 you count the baggage that was onboard the 

15 flight? 

16 A I did. 

17 Q Do you recall how many standard 

18 bags were onboard the flight? 

19 A I do not. 

20 Q Is there anything that would help 

21 you recall how many bags you counted that day? 

22 A Yes, if I could review my 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 inspector statement, that would be helpful. 

2 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

3 approach, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

5 MR. HARPER: I am handing to 

6 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 

7 judge and the witness the document that has 

8 been previously marked as Exhibit C-102 for 

9 identification. 

10 BY MR. HARPER: 

11 Q Ms. Wallentine, if you could 

12 review that document and just look up to let 

13 me know when you have finished. 

14 Do you recall now how many bags 

15 you counted as being aboard Flight 1160? 

16 A Yes, I do. There were 3 5 standard 

17 bags and 24 valet bags. 

18 Q Where were you standing when you 

19 counted the bags? 

20 A At the baggage loading. 

21 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

22 bags as they came off the plane? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A Yes, I did. 

2 Q I would like to turn your 

3 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM4 060063 before this Court as DMS Number FAA5 2012-0873. 

6 Are you familiar with this case? 

7 A I am. 

8 Q How are you familiar with this it? 

9 A I was the inspector on-site at the 

10 time of the incident. 

11 Q At the time was the surveillance 

12 to take place on April 7, 20117 

13 A That's correct. 

14 Q And was that surveillance 

15 performed at Colorado Springs? 

16 A Yes, it was. 

17 Q What was the purpose of the 

18 surveillance? 

19 A It was to ensure that the cargo 

20 and baggage count matched the CLR. 

21 Q If I could turn your attention now 

22 to Flight 6756 from Chicago to Colorado 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Springs. Did you count the baggage onboard 

2 this flight? 

3 A I did. 

4 Q Do you recall how many standard 

5 bags were onboard Flight 6756? 

6 A I do. 

7 Q Is there anything that would help 

8 you remember? 

9 A My inspector statement would be 

10 helpful. 

11 Q Your inspector statement or 

12 somebody else's inspector statement? 

13 A Mr. Chavez' inspector statement 

14 might be helpful. 

15 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

16 approach, Your Honor? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

18 MR. HARPER: I'm handing what has 

19 been previously marked as Complainant's 

20 Exhibit C-105 for identification to opposing 

21 counsel, the court reporter, the Judge, and 

22 the witness. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 BY MR. HARPER: 

2 Q Ms. Wallentine, if you could 

3 review that statement and, when you are 

4 finished, just look up so I know you are 

5 finished. 

6 Do you recall now how many 

7 standard bags were on Flight 6756? 

8 A Yes, there were 33. 

9 Q Do you recall how many heavy bags 

10 were on Flight 6756? 

11 A There were two. 

12 Q Where were you standing when you 

13 were counting the baggage? 

14 A At the baggage loading belt. 

15 Q How did you recognize that heavy 

16 bags were heavy bags? 

17 A They were tagged, I believe it is 

18 an orange heavy bag tag. It states heavy bag 

19 on it. 

20 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

21 baggage as it came off of the aircraft? 

22 A Yes, I did. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q I would like to turn your 

2 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM3 060095 before this Court as DMS Number FAA4 2013-086 -- I'm sorry -- FAA-2013-0617. 

5 Are you familiar with this case? 

6 A I am. 

7 Q How are you familiar with it? 

8 A I was the inspector on-site at the 

9 time of the incidence. 

10 Q Did that surveillance take place 

11 July 14, 20117 

12 A Yes, it did. 

13 Q And were at Colorado Springs when 

14 you performed the surveillance? 

15 A I was. 

16 Q What was the purpose of the 

17 surveillance? 

18 A Was to ensure that the cargo and 

19 the baggage loaded on the aircraft matched the 

20 CLR. 

21 Q If I could turn your attention now 

22 to Flight 1160 from Houston to Colorado 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Springs, is that one of the aircraft you 

2 inspected that day? 

3 A It was. 

4 Q Do you recall how many standard 

5 bags were on Flight 1160? 

6 A I do not. 

7 Q Is there anything that would help 

8 you remember? 

9 A My inspector statement would be 

10 helpful. 

11 MR. HARPER: I am handing to 

12 opposing counsel, the court reporter, the 

13 Judge, and the witness, what has been 

14 previously marked as Exhibit C-103 for 

15 identification. Permission to approach? 

16 (No audible response.) 

17 BY MR. HARPER: 

18 Q Ms. Wallentine, if you could 

19 review that document and look up and let me 

20 know when you are -- you beat me to it. 

21 Do you recall now how many 

22 standard bags were on Flight 1160? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A There were 43. 

2 Q Where were you standing when you 

3 counted the baggage? 

4 A At the baggage loading belt. 

5 Q Did you have a clear view of the 

6 cargo as it came off the plane? 

7 A Yes, I did. 

8 Q Did you obtain any documents 

9 relevant to this flight? 

10 A I did. 

11 Q What documents? 

12 A The CLR and then the ACARS load 

13 manifest. 

14 Q What does ACARS stand for? 

15 A It is Aircraft Communications 

16 Addressing and Reporting System. 

17 Q What is that? 

18 A It is a system that the crew 

19 inputs data into, such as they take 

20 information on the baggage count and 

21 passengers and input them into the ACARS 

22 system. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q And just so I understand, you 

2 obtained both the documents from the flight 

3 crew on the flight deck. 

4 A I did. 

5 Q Did you speak to any SkyWest 

6 employees or contractors in Houston, the 

7 origination point of the flight to obtain any 

8 of those documents? 

9 A No, I did not. 

10 Q If you could please turn in the 

11 binder in front of you to Tab C-32. If you 

12 could verify at the bottom right it is marked 

13 Exhibit C-32 for identification. 

14 A I do see that. 

15 Q Do you recognize this document? 

A 

17 Q What is it? 

18 A It is the CLR. 

19 Q Is it the original CLR or is it a 

20 copy? 

21 A It is a true copy. 

22 Q A true copy of the CLR you 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 obtained from the flight crew? 

2 A Correct. 

3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

4 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-32 WAS 

5 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

6 BY MR. HARPER: 

7 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-33. 

8 And if you could just verify it is marked 

9 Exhibit C-33 at the bottom. 

10 A It is. 

11 Q Do you recognize this document? 

12 A Yes, I do. 

13 Q What is it? 

14 A It is the load manifest. 

15 Q Is it the original or a copy? 

16 A It is a copy. 

17 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

18 manifest you obtained from the flight crew? 

19 A It is. 

20 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

21 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-33 WAS 

22 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

2 time, we would like to move what has been 

3 previously marked as Complainant's Exhibit 32 

4 and 33 for identification into evidence as 

5 Complainant's 32 and 33. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 32 

8 and 33 for identification are received into 

9 evidence as Complainant's 32 and 33. 

10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

11 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

12 EXHIBITS C-32 AND C-33 WERE 

13 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

14 BY MR. HARPER: 

15 Q Did the number of standard bags on 

16 the CLR match up correctly with the number of 

17 bags you counted that were onboard the flight? 

18 A It did not. 

19 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q Okay, Ms. Wallentine, it looks 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 like there were three visits to Colorado 

2 Springs. One on May 5th, one on April 7th, 

3 the other one on July 14, 2011. I didn't get 

4 them in correct chronological order. I 

5 apologize. 

6 So, were all these trips that you 

7 made to Colorado Springs for the purpose of 

8 counting baggage? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Were there other SkyWest flights 

11 that flew into Colorado Springs on those 

12 dates? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Were there any discrepancies with 

15 those? 

16 A No. 

17 Q How many other SkyWest flights did 

18 you observe on those three dates? 

19 A I don't recall. 

20 Q Estimate? Five, ten? 

21 A I would say ten. 

22 Q Ten flights per day? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A I would say so, possibly. 

2 Q Okay, but you were there and 

3 counting bags on each one of them. 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q Okay. So, I take it because you 

6 are Denver-based, you are not with the CMO. 

7 This was part of some special assignment? 

8 A That is correct. 

9 Q And you were asked by the CMO to 

10 do what? 

11 A To compare the amount of cargo and 

12 baggage, compare it to the CLR. 

13 Q And this was confined to SkyWest? 

14 A That is correct. 

15 Q So it was some sort of special 

16 emphasis inspection regarding SkyWest? 

17 A I don't know. 

18 Q Were you asked to do this with 

19 respect to any other air carriers? 

20 A This particular assignment, no. 

21 Q Have there been other assignments 

22 where you have been asked to count bags coming 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 off of other air carriers? 

2 A No. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

4 questions. Thank you. 

5 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I am going to 

8 instruct you you are not to discussion your 

9 testimony with anybody prior to the conclusion 

10 of the hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper but 

11 you are free to go. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: I do have one more 

13 question. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

15 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q This was the pilot's CLR, not the 

18 station's, the origination station's CLR. Is 

19 that correct? 

20 A It was the CLR that the crew 

21 handed to me when I requested the CLR. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Again, subject to 

2 Mr. Harper, you are free to go. Again, the 

3 same admonishen not to discuss your testimony 

4 prior to completion of the hearing. 

5 MS. WALLENTINE: Yes, Your Honor. 

6 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

7 would like to call Mr. Joseph Chavez. 

8 Whereupon, 

9 JOSEPH CHAVEZ 

10 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

11 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

12 witness stand and was examined and testified 

13 as follows: 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

15 State your name for the record and 

16 spell your first and last name. 

17 THE WITNESS: Joseph Chavez, J-0-

18 S-E-P-H, C-H-A-V-E-Z. 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q Mr. Chavez, could you please 

22 briefly describe your background in aviation? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A I spent 20 years Air Force 

2 military. After that I worked in a 145 repair 

3 station. And in 2009 I joined the CMO in 

4 Denver. 

5 Q What air carriers did that CMO 

6 have responsibility for? 

7 A At the time, I was on the Links 

8 Certificate. 

9 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest 

10 Airlines in any capacity? 

11 A No. 

12 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

13 SkyWest Airlines? 

14 A No. 

15 Q I would like to turn your 

16 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM17 060072 before this Court as DMS Number FAA18 2012-0869. Are you familiar with this case? 

19 A Yes, I am. 

20 Q How are you familiar with it? 

21 A I was assisting in surveillance on 

22 SkyWest' s weight and balance baggage program. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Did that surveillance take place 

2 on May 5, 2011? 

3 A Yes, it did. 

4 Q Did that surveillance take place 

5 at Colorado Springs Airport? 

6 A Yes, it did. 

7 Q I would like to turn your 

8 attention to Flight 1160 from Houston to 

9 Colorado. Did you obtain any documents 

10 relevant to that flight? 

11 A Yes, I did. 

12 Q What documents? 

13 A The cargo load report and an ACARS 

14 or Aircraft Communication Reporting and 

15 Addressing-- or excuse me -- Addressing and 

16 Reporting System. The ACARS-generated load 

17 report. 

18 Q Did you obtain any of those 

19 documents from the origination end of the 

20 flight? 

21 A From the origination location? 

22 Q Yes, from Houston. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A No. No, I did not. 

2 Q Did you speak to any SkyWest 

3 employees or contractors in Houston? 

4 A No, I did not. 

5 Q Where did you obtain the CLR from? 

6 A From the air crew. 

7 Q And how about the load manifest? 

8 A The load manifest, the air crew 

9 was already gone. So, I obtained it from the 

10 jet way -- there was a trash bag that they 

11 were emptying all the papers from. It was in 

12 the trash bag there. 

13 Q How did you recognize that it was 

14 the load manifest for that flight? 

15 A It identifies ACARS on the top. 

16 It is a computer printout sheet. It also 

17 identified the date, the flight number, the 

18 originating location, plus the cargo weight. 

19 Q Mr. Chavez, if you could please 

20 turn to Tab C-3 in the binder in front of you. 

21 If you could just verify that at 

22 the lower right-hand corner it is marked 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Exhibit C-3 for identification. 

2 A Yes, it is. 

3 Q Do you recognize this document? 

4 A Yes, I do. 

5 Q What is it? 

6 A It is a cargo load report. 

7 Q Is it the original or is it a 

8 copy? 

9 A It is a true and accurate copy. 

10 Q And is that a copy of the cargo 

11 load report you obtained from the flight crew 

12 for Flight 1160? 

13 A Yes, it is. 

14 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

15 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-3 WAS 

16 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

17 BY MR. HARPER: 

18 Q If you could, please turn now to 

19 Tab C-4. If you could, verify at the lower 

20 right-hand corner it is marked as Exhibit C-4 

21 for identification. 

22 A Yes, it is. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q Do you recognize this document? 

2 A Yes, I do. 

3 Q What is it? 

4 A This is the ACARS load-generated 

5 report. 

6 Q Is it the original or a copy of 

7 the one you found in the trash? 

8 A It is a true and accurate copy. 

9 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

10 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-4 WAS 

11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

12 MR. HARPER: Okay, Your Honor, at 

13 this time, we would like to move what has been 

14 marked as Complainant's 3 and 4 for 

15 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

16 3 and 4. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: No objection with 

18 respect to C-3. With respect C-4, a very 

19 short voir dire, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

21 VOIR DIRE 

22 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 Q With respect to C-4, this document 

2 was in the trash? 

3 A Yes, it was. 

4 Q Did you ask the flight crew about 

5 it? 

6 A They were already gone. 

7 Q They were already gone? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q So, as you sit here today, you 

10 don't know if this was the actual ACARS 

11 printout or if it was superseded by something 

12 else. All you know is this is a document you 

13 found in the trash? 

14 A Yes. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Well, for whatever 

16 it is worth in terms of what weight, Your 

17 Honor, I guess we won't object to C-4, other 

18 than the fact that to the extent that it is 

19 simply a document that the inspector pulled 

2 0 out of the trash and did not ask the crew 

21 about it, didn't speak to the crew, we don't 

22 know whether it has been superseded by another 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 document or what. But for whatever it is 

2 worth, no objection. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: It goes to weight. 

4 Complainant's 4 for identification is received 

5 into evidence as Complainant's 4. 

6 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

7 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

8 EXHIBIT C-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

9 EVIDENCE.) 

10 BY MR. HARPER: 

11 Q Mr. Chavez, looking at Exhibit C12 4, is there a flight number on that document? 

13 A Yes, there is. 

14 Q What flight number? 

15 A Flight 1160. 

16 Q And is there a date on that 

17 document? 

18 A Yes, there is. 

19 Q What date? 

20 A May 5, 2011. 

21 Q Were any airports referred to on 

22 that document? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 A Yes, there is. 

2 Q What airports? 

3 A The originating airport that 

4 identifies KIAH, which stands for Houston 

5 International. 

6 Q And is there a time referenced on 

7 that document? 

8 A Yes, there is. ACARS begins at 

9 1418 and 42 seconds, so 2:18 p.m. 

10 Q And is that 2:18 p.m. local time 

11 or Zulu time? 

12 A Normally, it would be Zulu time. 

13 Q What is Zulu time? 

14 A Zulu time is Greenwich Mean Time. 

15 It is approximately six or seven hours ahead 

16 of our time here in Denver and Salt Lake City. 

17 Q It depends on where --

18 A Right. 

19 Q -- how far. It depends on where 

20 you are and what time of the year? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q I would like to turn your 

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1 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM2 060063. Before this Court is DMS Number FAA3 2012-0873. Are you familiar with this case? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q How is it that you are familiar 

6 with it? 

7 A I was assisting with surveillance. 

8 Q Did that surveillance take place 

9 on April 7, 2011? 

10 A Yes, it did. 

11 Q Where did that surveillance take 

12 place? 

13 A Colorado Springs Airport. 

14 Q What was the purpose of the 

15 surveillance? 

16 A To perform a surveillance on 

17 SkyWest' s weight and balance baggage program. 

18 Q I would like to turn your 

19 attention to Flight 6756 from Chicago to 

20 Colorado Springs. This is one of the flights 

21 that you surveilled that day. 

22 A Yes, it is. 

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1 Q Did you obtain any documents 

2 relevant to that flight? 

3 A Yes, I did. 

4 Q What documents? 

5 A I obtained the cargo load report 

6 from the air crew. I also obtained an ACARS 

7 load-generated report from the SkyWest 

8 personnel there. 

9 Q Did you obtain any of those 

10 documents from Chicago, the origination end of 

11 the flight? 

12 A No, I did not. 

13 Q Did you speak to any SkyWest 

14 employees or contractors in Chicago that 

15 loaded the bags or completed this paperwork? 

16 A No, I did not. 

17 Q I would like you to turn now to 

18 Tab C-16 in the binder in front of you. If 

19 you could verify that the document is also 

20 marked Exhibit C-16 in the lower right-hand 

21 corner. 

22 A Yes, it is. 

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1 Q Do you recognize this document? 

2 A Yes, I do. 

3 Q What is it? 

4 A It is the cargo load report. 

5 Q Is it the original or a copy? 

6 A It is a true and accurate copy. 

7 Q Of the cargo load report that you 

8 obtained from the flight crew? 

9 A Yes, it is. 

10 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

11 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-16 WAS 

12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

13 Q If you could turn now to Exhibit 

14 C-17. Again, if you could verify that it is 

15 marked Exhibit C-17 in the lower right-hand 

16 corner. 

17 A Yes, it is. 

18 Q Do you recognize this document? 

19 A Yes, I do. 

20 Q What is it? 

21 A This is the A CARS load-generated 

22 report I obtained from the SkyWest ramp 

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1 personnel. 

2 Q Is it a copy of the load manifest 

3 you obtained from the ramp supervisor or the 

4 original? 

5 A Yes, it is. It is a true and 

6 accurate copy. 

7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

8 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-17 WAS 

9 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

11 time we would like to move into evidence what 

12 has been previously marked as Complainant's 16 

13 and 17 for identification into evidence as 

14 Complainant's 16 and 17. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

16 Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 16 

18 and 17 for identification are received in 

19 evidence as Complainant's 16 and 17. 

20 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

21 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

22 EXHIBITS C-16 and C-17 WERE 

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1 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

2 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

3 Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

7 Q Mr. Chavez, all these documents 

8 you obtained at the arrival station. Is that 

9 correct? 

10 A That is correct, yes. 

11 Q And with the exception of Exhibit 

12 C-4, the ACARS load manifest for Flight 1160, 

13 which you picked out of the trash, the other 

14 load manifest came from SkyWest Airlines. 

15 A Yes, it did. 

16 Q And specifically with respect to 

17 one of these flights, I guess it was 1160, you 

18 got it from the SkyWest ramp supervisor at the 

19 arrival station. Is that correct? 

20 A Which report are you asking? 

21 Q The load manifest report. You got 

22 that from the ramp supervisor. Is that 

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1 correct? 

2 A Yes. Yes, I did. 

3 Q And the other ACARS Load Report, 

4 not the one you got from the ramp supervisor, 

5 not the one you got from the trash, where did 

6 you get that one from? 

7 A There were no others, just two. 

8 Q There were just two, okay. 

9 And the CLRs that you obtained, 

10 these were the flight crew copies. Is that 

11 correct? 

12 A They were the copies that the crew 

13 were given, yes. 

14 Q You didn't go back to the 

15 originating station? 

16 A No. No, I did not. 

17 Q And you didn't see the back side 

18 of the originating station CLR? 

19 A No, I did not. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 

21 further questions. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

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1 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

2 Honor. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

4 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

5 with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

6 hearing. It is up to Mr. Harper whether or 

7 not you are free to go. 

8 MR. CHAVEZ: Thank you. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on a minute. 

10 Apparently in the record I received 

11 Complainant's 4 for identification but not 

12 Complaint's 3. Both of the exhibits are --

13 both 3 and 4 are received into evidence as 3 

14 and 4. 

15 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

16 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

17 EXHIBIT C-3 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

18 EVIDENCE.) 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Mr. 

20 Harper. 

21 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. 

22 Ronald Benallo. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Case number, Jeff? 

2 MR. HARPER: 2012-0872. 

3 Whereupon, 

4 RONALD BENALLO 

5 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

6 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

7 witness stand and was examined and testified 

8 as follows: 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

10 State your name for the record and 

11 spell your first and last name. 

12 THE WITNESS: Ronald Benallo, R-0-

13 N-A-L-D, B-E-N-A-L-L-0. 

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

15 BY MR. HARPER: 

16 Q Mr. Benallo, could you briefly 

17 tell the Court about your background in 

18 aviation? 

19 A Retired airline mechanic. 

20 Q Do you hold any airman 

21 certificates? 

22 A I do. 

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1 What certificates? 

2 Airframe and powerplant. 

3 Who do you work for? 

4 SkyWest CMO in Salt Lake City. 

5 Is that part of the FAA? 

6 I'm sorry? 

7 Is that part of the FAA? 

8 Yes, sir. 

9 How long have you worked for the 

10 

12 And what do you do for the FAA? 

13 I help assist and manage SkyWest 

14 Airlines operating certificate. 

15 Q Are you an aviation safety 

16 inspector? 

17 A I am an aviation safety inspector. 

18 Q I would like to turn your 

19 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM20 060047 before this Court SDMS Number FAA-2012-

21 0872. Are you familiar with this case? 

22 A I am. 

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1 Q How are you familiar with it? 

2 A I performed a surveillance at the 

3 time of the issue. 

4 Q Did that surveillance take place 

5 on March 9, 2 011? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Where did you perform that 

8 surveillance? 

9 A In Colorado Springs. 

10 Q What was the purpose of the 

11 surveillance? 

12 A Actually I had two. I was 

13 assigned an Element Performance Inspection for 

14 cargo Handling Systems and Appliance. And I 

15 was also assigned to surveil the number of 

16 bags to ensure that it matched the CLR. 

17 Q Is that is the latter the 

18 subcategory of the former? 

19 As counting bags, is that part of 

20 the cargo handling EPI? 

21 A No, that was a separate 

22 assignment, in addition. 

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1 Q I would like to turn your 

2 attention to Flight 6756 from Chicago to 

3 Colorado Springs. Is this one of the flights 

4 you performed and inspection on? 

5 A Yes, it was. 

6 Q As part of that inspection, did 

7 you count the number of bags that were on the 

8 flight? 

9 A I did. 

10 Q Do you recall how many heavy bags 

11 were onboard the flight? 

12 A I counted one heavy bag on that 

13 flight. 

14 Q How did you recognize that it was 

15 a heavy bag? 

16 A It had a heavy bag tag affixed to 

17 it. 

18 Q Where were you standing when you 

19 were counting the luggage that was coming off 

20 the aircraft? 

21 A At the bottom of the belt loader. 

22 Q Did you have a clear view of each 

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1 bag as it came off? 

2 A Yes, I did. 

3 Q Did you obtain any documents 

4 relevant to that flight? 

5 A I did. I obtained CLR from the 

6 flight crew, their copy. 

7 Q And any other documents? 

8 A I obtained the ACARS report and 

9 the dispatch release. 

10 Q Did you obtain any of those 

11 documents from Chicago, the origination point 

12 of the flight? 

13 A I asked for the top copy, the 

14 white copy of the CLR to be faxed to the 

15 station manager's office in Colorado Springs. 

16 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-8 

17 in the binder in front of you. 

18 A C? 

19 Q Eight. 

20 A Eight? 

21 Q Do you recognize this document? 

22 A Yes, I do. 

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1 Q What is it? 

2 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

3 report. 

4 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

5 cargo load report that you received from 

6 SkyWest? 

7 A Yes, it is. 

8 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

9 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-8 WAS 

10 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

11 Q I notice that there is some tick 

12 marks on the bottom. Was that on the copy 

13 that you received from SkyWest when you 

14 received it from SkyWest? 

15 A Those tick marks are my counting 

16 the bags coming off. That is my writing. 

17 Q I would like to turn now to Tab c18 9. Do you recognize this document? 

19 A Yes, I do. 

20 Q What is it? 

21 A It is the flight release for 

22 Flight 6756 from Chicago to Colorado Springs 

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1 on March 9, 2011. 

2 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

3 flight release you obtained from SkyWest? 

4 A It is. 

5 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

6 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-9 WAS 

7 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

8 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-10. 

9 Do you recognize this document? 

10 A Yes, I do. 

11 Q What is it? 

12 A It is a picture of the bag tag 

13 that I took of the heavy bag coming off of the 

14 bag loader. 

15 Q And there is multiple pages on 

16 this one. So, if you could just tell us what 

17 the other one is. 

18 A They are a picture of the same --

19 I just got a clearer picture of the serial 

20 number, I guess, of the bag tag itself. And 

21 then the next picture, 0015 at the bottom, is 

22 the whole thing, including the heavy bag tag 

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1 and the same material, the number with the 

2 Flight 6756 on there. 

3 Q Do these photos accurate show what 

4 you saw that day when you were taking the 

5 photo? 

6 A Yes, they do. 

7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

8 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-10 WAS 

9 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

10 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

11 time, we would like to offer what has been 

12 marked as Complainant's 8, 9, and 10 into 

13 evidence as Complainant's 8, 9, and 10. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 8, 

16 9, and 10 for identification are received into 

17 evidence as Complainant's 8, 9 and 10. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

20 EXHIBITS C-8, C-9, AND C-10 WERE 

21 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

22 BY MR. HARPER: 

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1 Q Did the baggage count on the CLR 

2 for this flight correctly match up with the 

3 number of bags you counted coming off the 

4 aircraft? 

5 A No. 

6 Q I would like to turn your 

7 attention to Flight 6991 from Chicago to 

8 Colorado Springs. Did you count the baggage 

9 onboard this flight? 

10 A Yes, I counted two heavy bags 

11 coming off but that is all. I stopped when I 

12 saw those two come down. 

13 Q So you didn't finish counting the 

14 baggage onboard the aircraft? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Now, the two heavy bags, is that 

17 all the heavy bags that are on the aircraft? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Where were you standing when you 

20 counted the baggage? 

21 A Down at the bottom of the belt 

22 loader as they were coming off. 

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1 Q Did you have a clear view of each 

2 bag as it came off? 

3 A I did. 

4 Q Did you obtain any documents 

5 relevant to this flight? 

6 A I obtained the CLR from the flight 

7 crew, their copy. 

8 Q Did you obtain a copy of the load 

9 manifest as well? 

10 A I did. 

11 Q Where did you get the load 

12 manifest from? 

13 A From SkyWest Airlines. 

14 Q Did you obtain any of those 

15 documents from the originating point of the 

16 flight in Chicago? 

17 A I did. I asked for a faxed copy 

18 of the white or the top copy of the CLR as 

19 well to be faxed to the Colorado Springs 

20 Office. 

21 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-11. 

22 Do you recognize this document? 

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1 A Yes, I do. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A It is a copy of the cargo load 

4 report. 

5 Q Is it a copy of the pilot's copy 

6 or the station copy that you received from the 

7 fax from Chicago? 

8 A I'm not sure. 

9 Q Is there some text at the bottom 

10 of the document that would indicate that it 

11 was faxed? 

12 A Yes, there is. Okay, this was one 

13 faxed. Okay. 

14 Q Is it an accurate copy of the CLR 

15 that was faxed from Chicago? 

16 A Yes. 

17 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

18 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-11 WAS 

19 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-12, 

22 do you recognize this document? 

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1 A I do. 

2 Q What is it? 

3 A It is a copy of the flight release 

4 from Flight 6991 from Chicago to Colorado 

5 Springs on March 9, 2011. 

6 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

7 flight release you received from SkyWest? 

8 A Yes. 

9 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

10 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-12 WAS 

11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

12 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

13 time we would like to move what has been 

14 marked for identification as Complainant's 11 

15 and 12 into evidence as Complainant's 11 and 

16 12. 

17 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

18 Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 11 

20 and 12 for identificatim are received into 

21 evidence as Complainant's 11 and 12. 

22 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

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1 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

2 EXHIBITS C-11 AND C-12 WERE 

3 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

4 BY MR. HARPER: 

5 Q I would like to turn your 

6 attention now to Flight 4464 from Los Angeles 

7 to Las Vegas . 

8 Did you obtain any documents 

9 related to that flight taking place on the 8th 

10 of March 2011? 

11 A I did. 

12 Q What documents? 

13 A I obtained the dispatch release 

14 and the ACARS data from SkyWest Airlines. 

15 Q The ACARS data, would that be the 

16 load manifest? 

17 A The load manifest, yes. 

18 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-6. 

19 Do you recognize that document? 

20 A I do. 

21 Q What is it? 

22 A It is a manifest the release for 

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1 Flight 4464 from Las Vegas -- from LAX to Las 

2 Vegas March 8, 2011. 

3 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

4 manifest that you obtained from SkyWest? 

5 A Yes, it is. 

6 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

7 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-6 WAS 

8 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

9 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-14. 

10 Did you obtain any documents related to Flight 

11 6960 from Denver to Sioux Falls, taking place 

12 on the 14th of March? 

13 A I did. 

14 Q What documents? 

15 A The flight release manifest for 

16 Flight 6960 from Denver to Sioux Falls on 

17 March 14, 2011. 

18 Q Who did you get it from? 

19 A SkyWest Airlines. 

20 Q Looking at Exhibit C-14, what is 

21 that document? 

22 A The flight release. 

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1 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

2 flight release from that flight that you 

3 received from SkyWest? 

4 A Yes, it is. 

5 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

6 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-14 WAS 

7 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

8 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

9 time we would like to move into evidence what 

10 has been previously marked as Complainant's 6 

11 and Complainant's 14 for identification into 

12 evidence as Complainant's 6 and 14. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 6 

15 and 14 for identification are received into 

16 evidence as Complainant's 6 and 14. 

17 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

18 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

19 EXHIBIT C-6 AND C-14 WERE RECEIVED 

20 INTO EVIDENCE. ) 

21 MR. HARPER: No further questions, 

22 Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q Good morning, Mr. Chavez. I hope 

5 I don't interfere with your lunch plans 

6 because we are coming up on noon. 

7 Looking at Exhibit C-8. 

8 A Actually I am Ron Benallo, Slr. 

9 Q Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Benallo. Mr. 

10 Benallo. I'm sorry. 

11 Looking at Exhibit C-8, this is 

12 the cargo load report, the CLR for Flight 

13 6756. 

14 A Yes, sir. 

15 Q So, this CLR is the front page of 

16 the CLR that was faxed to you by O'Hare to 

17 wherever you were in Colorado Springs. Is 

18 that correct? 

19 A No, that is not correct. 

20 Q Okay. What is this? 

21 A This is the copy that I received, 

22 the yellow copy that I received from the 

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1 flight crews the flight carne in. 

2 Q Okay. So, C-8 was the flight crew 

3 copy? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. And under other 

6 information, --

7 A Yes. 

8 Q -- 47 bags, no heavy. And then 

9 one heavy counted. And then there are some 

10 tick marks. Is that are those your 

11 notations? 

12 A Yes, they are. 

13 Q And so what you are doing is you 

14 are basically counting groups of bags by five. 

15 Is that it? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q Which flight was it where you got 

18 the CLR from the departure station? 

19 A It was both Flights 6756 and 6991, 

20 I believe. 

21 Q Okay, so which exhibits were 

22 those? 

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1 MR. HARPER: I believe that would 

2 be C-13 and C-11. 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q You have the exhibits in front of 

5 you. Which CLRs by exhibit number did you get 

6 from the originating station? 

7 A C-11 is for Flight 6991. 

8 Q Okay. 

9 A And I'm not certain which the--

10 MR. HARPER: C-13 is the other 

11 CLR. 

12 THE WITNESS: C-13? 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q So, it was C-11 that you got from 

15 the originating station at O'Hare. Is that 

16 correct? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 Q Everything else was the pilot copy 

19 of the CLR. Is that correct? 

20 A Everything else? 

21 Q Well, all of the other CLRs were 

22 pilot copies. 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Okay. And with respect to the 

3 Exhibit C-11, did you ask the Chicago station 

4 to also fax you the back side of the CLR, the 

5 worksheet? 

6 A No, I don't believe so. 

7 Q Okay. Now, in your testimony, you 

8 have used three terms, it appears 

9 interchangeably. You refer to the documents 

10 C-9, C-12, C-14 as the dispatch release, the 

11 flight release, the load manifest. What are 

12 these documents? 

13 A Flight release, sir. 

14 Q They are a flight release. 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q So, they are not a load manifest. 

17 They are a flight release. 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q Okay. So, basically, all these 

20 forms where they have a little box and they 

21 have the flight number and the aircraft tail 

22 number and the route and the date, those are 

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1 flight releases, not the load manifest. Is 

2 that correct? 

3 A That is correct. 

4 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

5 questions. Thank you. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. HARPER: 

9 Q Mr. Benallo, in each case, those 

10 flight releases contain the gross takeoff 

11 weight of the aircraft for the flight in 

12 question. 

13 A That's correct. 

14 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

15 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

17 Q Those flight releases have the 

18 gross takeoff weight for the aircraft in 

19 question as of the time that the flight 

20 release is prepared. Is that correct? 

21 A Can you rephrase that? 

22 Q Well, the flight release 

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1 A Which are you speaking of? 

2 Q Well, for instance, let's look at 

3 Exhibit C-6, which you have in front of you. 

4 That flight release contains the data and the 

5 gross takeoff weight as of the time that that 

6 flight release has been prepared. Is that 

7 correct? 

8 A I believe so. 

9 Q Okay. So, if there were any last10 minute changes, late arriving passenger with 

11 bags or whatever, if there were any last12 minute changes after the flight release was 

13 prepared, the flight release data may very 

14 well have been changed. Is that correct? 

15 A Honestly, I don't know. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: Okay, thank you. No 

17 further questions. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further, 

19 Mr. Harper? 

20 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

22 instruct you that you are not to discuss your 

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1 testimony with anybody prior to the close of 

2 the hearing. You may step down. Subject to 

3 instructions from Mr. Harper, you are free to 

4 go. 

5 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, it is 15 

6 of 12:00. I think my next witness can get all 

7 their testimony in before 12:00, if you would 

8 like to wait to take lunch. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

10 MR. HARPER: The FAA calls Mr. Ben 

11 Blauer. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Inwhatcase, 

13 Jeff? 

14 MR. HARPER: This is going to be 

15 2012-0904. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, Mr. Harper, 

17 you don't have to check this now. You can 

18 check this at the lunch break. I don't show 

19 an Exhibit 37. 

20 MR. HARPER: That is correct. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have got a 36 

22 and a 38 but not a 37. 

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1 MR. HARPER: There is no Exhibit 

2 37. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: That is why I 

4 don't have one. 

5 Whereupon, 

6 BENJAMIN HENRY BLAUER 

7 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

8 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

9 witness stand and was examined and testified 

10 as follows: 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

12 State your name for the record and spell your 

13 first and last name. 

14 THE WITNESS: My name is Benjamin 

15 Henry Blauer, B-E-N-J-A-M-I-N, Blauer, B-L-A16 U-E-R. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, 

18 Counselor. 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q Mr. Blauer, could you briefly 

22 describe for the Court your background in 

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1 aviation? 

2 A I have 17 years in aviation 

3 experience teaching flight school in both 

4 flight and ground instruction, seven years of 

5 airline experience, and nearly seven years 

6 with the Federal Aviation Administration. 

7 Q Do you hold any airman 

8 certificates? 

9 A I do. I hold a flight instructor 

10 certificate, advanced ground instructor and 

11 instrument ground instructor certificates. I 

12 also hold an airline transport pilot 

13 certificate. 

14 Q Do you hold any type ratings? 

15 A I have two, one on the Embraer 145 

16 and another on the Canada Air CL-600. 

17 Q What do you currently do for a 

18 living? 

19 A I am employed by the Federal 

20 Aviation Administration at the SkyWest 

21 Certificate Management Office. 

22 Q How long have you worked there? 

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1 A Nearly seven years. 

2 Q Are you an employee of SkyWest 

3 Airlines in any way? 

4 A No, sir. 

5 Q Have you ever been an employee of 

6 SkyWest? 

7 A No. 

8 Q I would like to turn your 

9 attention now to FAA Case Number 2011-NM10 060081 before this Court as DMS Number FAA11 2012-0904. Are you familiar with this case? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q How are you familiar with it? 

14 A I was the inspector involved in 

15 writing the case and observed the findings 

16 directly. 

17 Q Did your observations take place 

18 on June 15, 2011? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Were you at Reno-Tahoe 

21 International Airport when you were conducting 

22 the inspection that gave rise to these? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q What was the purpose of your 

3 inspection at Reno-Tahoe International 

4 Airport? 

5 A My purpose there was to conduct 

6 inspections on SkyWest stations for both 

7 United, Express, and Delta Connection 

8 operations out of the Reno Airport. 

9 Q I would like to turn your 

10 attention to Flight 4781 from Salt Lake City 

11 to Reno. As part of your inspection, did you 

12 evaluate the cargo that was onboard that 

13 flight? 

14 A Yes, I did. 

15 Q Was there any company material 

16 onboard? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Do you recall how much company 

19 material? 

20 A There were two boxes of company 

21 material onboard the airplane. One that was 

22 listed as 130 pounds. The other was listed as 

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1 60 pounds. 

2 Q That is a total of 190 pounds of 

3 company material. 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q Were you standing near the cargo 

6 door as the cargo was being offloaded? 

7 A Yes, I was standing near the aft 

8 of the airplane, near the baggage belt loader. 

9 Q Did you have a clear view of each 

10 package as it came off the aircraft? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Did you obtain any documents 

13 relevant to that flight? 

14 A Specifically, the cargo load 

15 report I obtained from the flight crew. I 

16 also, from SkyWest Airlines, obtained the 

17 dispatch flight release and the load manifest. 

18 Q Did you obtain any of those 

19 documents from Salt Lake City, the origination 

20 point of the flight? 

21 A No. 

22 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-29. 

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1 If you could just verify that the page is 

2 marked Exhibit C-29 for identification in the 

3 lower right-hand corner. 

4 A Okay. 

5 Q Do you recognize this document? 

6 A Yes, I do. 

7 Q What is it? 

8 A This is the cargo load report for 

9 Flight 4781. 

10 Q Is it the cargo load report or a 

11 copy of the cargo load report? 

12 A This is the copy of the carbon 

13 portion obtained from the flight crew. 

14 Q Is it an accurate copy of the 

15 cargo load report that you received from the 

16 flight crew? 

17 A Yes. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

19 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-29 WAS 

20 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

21 BY MR. HARPER: 

22 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-30. 

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1 Do you recognize this document? 

2 A I do. 

3 Q What is it? 

4 A This is a load manifest obtained 

5 from SkyWest Airlines. It was sent via ACARS. 

6 Q Is it an accurate copy of the load 

7 manifest that you obtained from SkyWest? 

8 A Yes. 

9 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

10 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-30 WAS 

11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

12 BY MR. HARPER: 

13 Q If you could turn now to Tab C-31. 

14 There are multiple pages behind this tab. Do 

15 you recognize these documents? 

16 A Yes, I do. 

17 Q What are they? 

18 A These are photographs that I took 

19 of the COMAT materials that came off the 

2 0 aircraft. 

21 Q Do they accurately reflect what 

22 you saw that day? 

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1 A Yes, they do. 

2 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED 

3 TO AS COMPLAINANT EXHIBIT C-31 WAS 

4 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

5 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, at this 

6 time we would like to move what has been 

7 marked as Complainant's 29, 30, and 31 for 

8 identification into evidence as Complainant's 

9 2 9 , 3 0 , and 3 1 . 

10 MR. DWORKIN: No objections, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 BY MR. HARPER: 

13 Q Did the cargo load report 

14 correctly reflect the COMAT that was onboard 

15 the flight? 

16 A No, it did not. 

17 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 2 9, 

19 30, and 31 for identification are received 

20 into evidence as Complainant's29, 30, and 31. 

21 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

22 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS COMPLAINANT 

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1 EXHIBITS C-29 THROUGH C-31 WERE 

2 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

5 Q Mr. Blauer, Exhibit C-30, is that 

6 a dispatch release or a load manifest? 

7 A This is an ACARS load manifest. 

8 Q What is the difference in terms of 

9 the form between the ACARS load manifest and 

10 the dispatch release? 

11 A This report here is sent by the 

12 flight crew as they enter the information that 

13 they receive from the cargo load report into 

14 the ACARS system and send it to the company. 

15 Q Now, with respect to these two 

16 items of COMAT, one was a plastic tub and the 

17 other one was a cable, how did you establish 

18 the weights of these things? 

19 A The weights were obtained from 

20 tags affixed to both items. 

21 Q So those two items should have 

22 weighed 190 pounds if the weights on the tags 

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1 were accurate. Correct? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q So basically, whoever prepared the 

4 CLR showing 160 pounds probably couldn't add 

5 right. 

6 A I would have to say that, yes. 

7 Q Do you have any other explanation 

8 for why the CLR would have had this incorrect 

9 weight? 

10 A I do not. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

12 questions. Thank you. 

13 MR. HARPER: No redirect, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

17 with anybody prior to completion of the 

18 hearing. You are free to go. 

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 

22 suggest this would be a good time for break 

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1 for lunch. But before we do, I would just 

2 like to confirm that SkyWest doesn't 

3 anticipate calling Michele Wallentine, Joe 

4 Chavez, Mr. Benallo or Mr. Arron Perkins to 

5 the stand. They are from out of town. So, if 

6 they are not going to be called, I would like 

7 to --

8 MR. DWORKIN: They are free to go. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we ought to 

10 find out if anybody is going back to LA and 

11 hold them here until the smoke goes away. 

12 The Court doesn't have any need 

13 for them. Mr. Harper, you are certainly 

14 welcome to let them go. 

15 Mr. Harper, at lunch, would you 

16 look at C-16? It is a cargo load report and 

17 I can't make out the date. It could be a 

18 four, it could be a nine. So, just let me 

19 know when we reconvene. 

20 MR. HARPER: Certainly. As a 

21 matter of fact, I have the originals here. 

22 So, I can 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, just double 

2 heck. What I am trying to do is make sure I 

3 got the master list correct. 

4 Okay, we are going to go off the 

5 record. I have got about ten minutes of one. 

6 So, let's go off the record until around 1:00. 

7 When everybody gets back, we will go back on 

8 the record. 

9 So again, I will instruct any 

10 potential witnesses, you are not to discuss 

11 your testimony with anybody prior to the 

12 conclusion of the hearing. 

13 We are off the record. 

14 (Whereupon, at 11:52 a.m., a lunch 

15 recess was taken.) 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-0-0-N S-E-S-S-I-0-N 

2 (1:11 p.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go back on 

4 the record. Mr. Harper, call your next 

5 witness. 

6 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. The 

7 FAA calls Mr. Andrew Ayers. 

8 Whereupon, 

9 ANDREW JAMES AYERS 

10 was called as a witness by the Complainant, 

11 and having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

12 witness stand and was examined and testified 

13 as follows: 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

15 State your name for the record and 

16 spell your first and last name. 

17 THE WITNESS: My name is Andrew 

18 James Ayers, first name A-N-D-R-E-W, last name 

19 A-Y-E-R-S. 

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. HARPER: 

22 Q Mr. Ayers, could you describe your 

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1 aviation background? 

2 A Yes, I have been in aviation for 

3 19 years, receivingmyprivatepilot's license 

4 in 1995. I then got a job in commercial 

5 aviation with Atlantic Southeast Airlines in 

6 1998. I acted as a pilot command in the EMB7 120 and CL-65 aircraft for Atlantic Southeast 

8 Airlines for approximately nine years. 

9 Following that, I left Atlantic 

10 Southeast Airlines to come to the Federal 

11 Aviation Administration, where I have been for 

12 six and a half years acting as principle 

13 operations inspector for the last three years. 

14 Q When you worked for Atlantic 

15 Southeast Airlines, was it a subsidiary of 

16 SkyWest Airlines, Incorporated? 

17 A For a portion of that time it was, 

18 yes. 

19 Q Were you ever employed by SkyWest 

20 Airlines directly? 

21 A I was not. 

22 Q At any point in time? 

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1 A No. 

2 Q Does the officer assigned to you 

3 have responsibility for any particular 

4 certificate holder? 

5 A Yes, I am employed by the SkyWest 

6 Certificate Management Office. Our 

7 responsibility is oversight of the SkyWest 

8 Airlines Operating Certificate. 

9 Q I believe you mentioned your are 

10 the principle operations inspector. 

11 A That is correct. 

12 Q What does the principle operations 

13 inspector do? 

14 A Principle operations inspector has 

15 the overall responsibility for all of the 

16 authorizations and approvals for SkyWest' s 

17 operational needs. So, my job is to both 

18 oversee the compliance, oversee the 

19 authorizatims for their programs, and 

20 schedule surveillance and follow-up. 

21 Q Do you hold any airman 

22 certificates? 

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1 A I do. I have an airline transport 

2 pilot certificate with type ratings in the 

3 EMB-120 and CL-65 series aircraft. 

4 Q Are those the type aircraft that 

5 were flown in these cases? 

6 A They are, yes. 

7 Q Have you received any training in 

8 the course of your duties of becoming an ASI? 

9 A I have. 

10 Q Could you describe that training? 

11 A I attended the basic initial 

12 training for all aviation safety inspectors 

13 when I became employed with the FAA for all 

14 manner of program compliance, various types of 

15 training the ASI is responsible for and, 

16 during the course of my time with the FAA, I 

17 have received additional recurrent training on 

18 various programs, as well as new programs. 

19 Q In the course of your training to 

20 become an airline transport pilot, did you 

21 ever receive any training in aircraft weight 

22 and balance? 

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1 A I did, yes. 

2 Q Could you describe briefly what 

3 that training was? 

4 A Yes, well, prior to become an 

5 airline transport pilot, I received training 

6 generally in weight and balance as part of my 

7 private pilot training. Throughout my 

8 training, especially with, as you mentioned, 

9 Atlantic Southeast Airlines, we undergo 

10 initial training in the aircraft or in the 

11 operator 1 s policies and procedures for weight 

12 and balance compliance, as well as recurrent 

13 training every six months testing every year, 

14 retraining on the ground subjects. 

15 Q So you have not only received 

16 generalized weight and balance training that 

17 is applicable to any pilot flying any sort of 

18 aircraft but you received training specific to 

19 the type aircraft that were at issue in this 

20 case. 

21 A I have, yes. 

22 Q Are you familiar with SkyWest 1 s 

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1 operational procedures? 

2 A I am. 

3 Q How are you familiar with those 

4 procedures? 

5 A As the principle operations 

6 inspector, it is my responsibility and 

7 authority to grant approval for those 

8 procedures. 

9 Q And specifically, are you familiar 

10 with SkyWest's weight and balance program? 

11 A I am, yes. 

12 Q And how are you familiar with that 

13 program? 

14 A I have both reviewed it in several 

15 iterations and issued approval for it. 

16 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, we offer 

17 Mr. Andrew Ayers as an expert in the field of 

18 aircraft weight and balance. 

19 MR. DWORKIN: No objection, Your 

20 Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness will 

22 be received as an expert in the area. 

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1 BY MR. HARPER: 

2 Q Does the SkyWest weight and 

3 balance program involve the use of any forms 

4 to aid SkyWest personnel in calculating an 

5 aircraft's weight and balance? 

6 A Yes, it does. 

7 Q What forms would those be? 

8 A They use a form called a cargo 

9 load report, which essentially a tally 

10 worksheet for computing the loads or the 

11 weight of cargo that is loaded on the 

12 aircraft. 

13 Q Could you describe for me one of 

14 the terms found on the cargo load report that 

15 we have seen today is a standard bag. What is 

16 a standard bag? 

17 A A standard bag is a term used for 

18 an average that is essentially it is assigned 

19 30 pounds. So a standard bag weighs 3 0 

20 pounds. That is a given number. 

21 Q Now, a standard bag, does it 

22 always weigh exactly 30 pounds or sort of what 

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1 is the range that a standard bag covers? 

2 A A standard bag is defined as a bag 

3 that weighs from zero up to 50 pounds. 

4 Q And how about a heavy bag? What 

5 range would a heavy bag cover? 

6 A A heavy bag would be over 50 up to 

7 100 pounds. 

8 Q And for purposes of SkyWest weight 

9 and balance program, what weight is assigned 

10 to a heavy bag? 

11 A A 60-pound weight is assigned to a 

12 heavy bag. 

13 Q How about a plane side loaded 

14 valet baggage? How does SkyWest program treat 

15 that type of luggage? 

16 A Those are counted as 30 pounds. 

17 Q And again, what weight range do 

18 they typically encompass? 

19 A The same, zero to 50 pounds. 

20 Q Are there other forms or documents 

21 that are relevant to the SkyWest weight and 

22 balance program? 

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1 A There are the actual load manifest 

2 for the aircraft, which contains the total 

3 weights for the flight is another one of the 

4 documents that is part of their weight and 

5 balance program. 

6 Q If you could turn in the binder in 

7 front of you to Exhibit C-6. 

8 A Okay. 

9 Q Is this a load manifest or a 

10 dispatch release? 

11 A This is a load manifest. 

12 Q If you could turn to C-9. Is this 

13 a load manifest or a dispatch release? 

14 A This is also a load manifest. 

15 Q How about C-12? 

16 A This is also a load manifest. 

17 Q And finally, C-14. 

18 A That is also a load manifest. 

19 Q You have been following along 

20 sitting at counsel table with all the evidence 

21 that has been admitted so far today. Have any 

22 of the documents you have seen been flight 

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1 releases? 

2 A I have not seen a flight release 

3 today. 

4 Q Any dispatch releases? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Are you familiar with the FAA 

7 Weight and Balance Handbook? 

8 A I am. 

9 Q What is the Weight and Balance 

10 Handbook? 

11 A The Weight and Balance Handbook is 

12 sort of a general book. It contains both 

13 background knowledge, scientific information, 

14 factual information about weight and balance, 

15 as well as suggested policies and procedures 

16 for complying with weight and balance when 

17 operating aircraft. 

18 Q Does it discuss some of the 

19 potential hazards of operating with aircraft 

20 that are overweight or out of center of 

21 gravity? 

22 A It does. 

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1 Q What are some sample hazards that 

2 might arise from operating an aircraft that is 

3 overweight? 

4 A Well essentially, if the aircraft 

5 is overweight, all of the performance numbers 

6 that you have derived for that particular 

7 flight are invalidated. You can have any 

8 number of effects on the flight extended 

9 takeoff role, reduce client gradient, reduce 

10 climb rate, increase stall speed, increase 

11 fuel burn, inability to maintain your cruise 

12 altitude that you have planned. Aft CG can 

13 cause things such as difficulty in pitch 

14 control to the extent where you may find the 

15 aircraft uncontrollable. 

16 Q Are you familiar with any aircraft 

17 accidents under Part 121 where weight and 

18 balance was a casual factor? 

19 A I am, yes. 

20 Q Could you briefly describe that 

21 accident? 

22 MR. EMERSON: Objection; 

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1 relevance. 

2 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, it goes 

3 to what an appropriate sanction would be. It 

4 addresses the safety risk that is inherent in 

5 operating an aircraft with an inaccurate 

6 weight and balance. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor 

8 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, there is 

9 no evidence --

10 MR. HARPER: And it is offered to 

11 show --

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just one of you. 

13 MR. HARPER: And it is offered to 

14 show that these risks are not merely notional 

15 that we are discussing. That in fact in the 

16 real world, there can be real world effects. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't see how a 

18 prior accident can affect the -- can assist 

19 the Court in helping. I am going to sustain 

20 it at this point. 

21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I would 

22 like to make an offer of proof for the record. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

2 BY MR. HARPER: 

3 Q Mr. Ayers, if you could testify, 

4 it is not going to be admitted as evidence 

5 here but for purposes of making the record 

6 clear what you would have testified, had it 

7 been admitted, if you could describe the 

8 circumstances of the accident. 

9 A Essentially, the accident in 

10 question involved an aircraft that was loaded 

11 no in compliance with the operator's approved 

12 weight and balance program. Incorrect 

13 information was provided to the flight crew 

14 which allowed them or did not allow them, 

15 rather, to accurately complete their load 

16 manifest for their flight. That resulted in 

17 them being unable to detect an aft CG, which 

18 rendered the aircraft uncontrollable. And the 

19 aircraft in question stalled shortly after 

20 takeoff and crashed, killing all persons 

21 aboard. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court is not 

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1 going to change its ruling. I don't see how 

2 another accident has any probative value or 

3 relevancy to this particular case. 

4 MR. HARPER: Understood, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, the Court's 

7 ruling remains the same. 

8 BY MR. HARPER: 

9 Q Mr. Ayers, I would like to 

10 discuss, just to get started, Flight 4540 on 

11 March 11, 2011 from Missoula to Salt Lake 

12 City. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Which case, Jeff? 

14 MR. HARPER: It is going to be 

15 2012-0874. 

16 BY MR. HARPER: 

17 Q If you could, turn to Tab C-21 in 

18 the binder ln front of you. As you recall, 

19 this document was admitted into evidence as 

20 the crew's copy of the cargo load report for 

21 Flight 4540 from Missoula to Salt Lake City on 

22 March 3, 2011. 

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1 If you could -- do you happen to 

2 have a calculator with you? 

3 A I have my phone with a calculator. 

4 MR. HARPER: Is there any 

5 objection if he uses his phone as a 

6 calculator? 

7 MR. DWORKIN: No objection. 

8 BY MR. HARPER: 

9 Q Mr. Ayers, looking at this 

10 exhibit, the CLR shows that there were 3 5 

11 checked bags, two heavy bags, 12 plane side 

12 valet bags, service items, and 350 pounds of 

13 COMAT. 

14 Since you are familiar with 

15 SkyWest's weight and balance program, could 

16 you calculate what the weight of the cargo was 

17 for this flight based on the CLR? 

18 A Okay. 

19 MR. DWORKIN: Objection, Your 

20 Honor. Perhaps we should utilize Exhibit R21 21, which is the corrected CLR. 

22 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I am also 

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1 going to have him do the calculation with R-21 

2 as well. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: It seems to me you 

4 get chance, too, Mr. Dworkin. Objection is 

5 overruled. 

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. You want the 

7 total number? 

8 BY MR. HARPER: 

9 Q Yes. What was the -- what do you 

10 calculate? 

11 A I came up with 1820. 

12 Q Okay, 35 plane side -- standard, 

13 12 plane side for 47 times 30 pounds? 

14 A Yes, that is 1410. 

15 Q And then two heavy checked bags at 

16 60 pounds each, that is 120 pounds. 

17 A Yes, that is 12 0' yes. 

18 Q And then add 350 for the COMAT. 

19 A Oh, 1880. Sorry about that. I 

20 missed the one. 

21 Q All right. Perhaps it proves the 

22 point that SkyWest has been making that the 

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1 numbers get confusing. 

2 If you could turn the page to Tab 

3 C-22. 

4 A Okay. 

5 Q And this has been admitted as the 

6 load manifest for flight 4540. What is the 

7 weight of the cargo that the flight was 

8 operated using? 

9 A It also shows 1880. 

10 Q So the weight as shown on the 

11 cargo load report is the same as the weight 

12 shown on the load manifest. 

13 A The total weight is the same, yes. 

14 Q But nonetheless, from the evidence 

15 you heard here today, the cargo load report 

16 found at Exhibit C-21 is incorrect because the 

17 COMAT is listed as 350 pounds instead of 100 

18 pounds of CO MAT and 250 pounds of ballast. 

19 A That is correct. 

20 MR. HARPER: Permission to 

21 approach, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

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1 MR. HARPER: I am showing the 

2 witness Respondent's 21. 

3 BY MR. HARPER: 

4 Q Mr. Ayers you were here when 

5 SkyWest Airlines introduced this exhibit as 

6 being the station copy of the cargo load 

7 report and, essentially, that it was the more 

8 accurate one because it had some changes that 

9 correctly reflected the COMAT and the ballast 

10 specs. Correct? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q Could you calculate, based on that 

13 CLR the weight of the cargo that was onboard 

14 the aircraft? 

15 A Okay. I come up with 1850. 

16 Q Is that the same or different from 

17 the load manifest that was used to operate the 

18 flight? 

19 A That is 30 pounds less than what 

20 the load manifest indicates. 

21 Q So, you would say that the cargo 

22 load report that SkyWest says is more accurate 

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1 results in a cargo weight that is at odds with 

2 the actual load manifest that was used to 

3 operate the flight? 

4 A Yes, they are conflicting. 

5 Q In a sense, the correct load 

6 manifest, the station manager's copy is more 

7 wrong than the copy that was given to the air 

8 crew. 

9 A They are both wrong but this one 

10 is more wrong in that the weight is actually 

11 incorrect. 

12 Q Mr. Ayers, in the course of 

13 preparing for your testimony today, did you 

14 have an opportunity to review the 

15 investigative reports in these cases? 

16 A I did, yes. 

17 Q And have you, in the course of 

18 that review, did you calculate the weights for 

19 each of the flights based on what the CLR 

20 showed and compare to what the load manifest 

21 for that flight showed? 

22 A I did review that, yes, with the 

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1 calculations. 

2 Q So, I would like to turn your 

3 attention now, and I apologize I don't have 

4 the case numbers in the questions. So, it 

5 might take a little while if you need that 

6 information. 

7 But if you could look at Flight 

8 5840 on June 2nd from Houston to Charlotte, 

9 that is going to be Case 2012-0868. When you 

10 reviewed that case, did the weight as 

11 calculated using the data on the CLR line up 

12 with the weight that was listed on the load 

13 manifest for that flight? 

14 A It did not. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: 5840 is Exhibits 1 

16 and 2. Is that what you are looking for? 

17 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

18 Thank you . 

19 BY MR. HARPER: 

20 Q Turning now to Flight 1160 on May 

21 5th from Houston to Colorado Springs, this 

22 will be case FAA-2012-0869. Did the cargo 

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1 weight as calculated using the data on the CLR 

2 match the cargo weight listed on the load 

3 manifest? 

4 A It did not. 

5 Q Are you sure about that? 

6 A Tell me the date again of the 

7 1160? There was two 1160s. 

8 Q 1160 on May 5, 2011. And hang on 

9 a second. I will give you the exhibit numbers 

10 if you want to turn and look at them. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: What is the flight 

12 number again? 

13 MR. HARPER: 1160. So, this is 

14 going to be Exhibits 3 and 4. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

16 THE WITNESS: I am going to double 

17 check my math here. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: We will have Mr. 

19 Ayers' phone received in evidence. 

20 THE WITNESS: It does match on the 

21 May 5th case. 

22 BY MR. HARPER: 

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1 Q Thank you. Now, you have heard 

2 testimony today that the actual cargo onboard 

3 the aircraft wasn't correctly reflected in the 

4 cargo load report. Would that mean then that 

5 the load manifest the performance data 

6 calculated using the cargo weight entered in 

7 the load manifest would have been incorrect? 

8 A Can you repeat the first part of 

9 the question one more time, please? 

10 Q You heard testimony today that the 

11 cargo load report did not correctly reflect 

12 what was onboard the aircraft. 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q From that, does it then mean that 

15 since the load manifest matches the cargo load 

16 report that the load manifest is also 

17 incorrect? 

18 A Yes. If the cargo load report 

19 does not match what was on the aircraft then 

20 the load manifest is also incorrect. 

21 Q And if the load manifest was 

22 incorrect, then the performance data that was 

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1 calculated for the flight would also have been 

2 incorrect. 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q Turning now to Flight 4464 on 

5 March 8, 2011 from Los Angeles to Las Vegas 

6 that we are now discussing in Case 2012-0872. 

7 And that is going to be Exhibits 5 and 6. 

8 Did the weight of the cargo 

9 calculated using the CLR, is that the same 

10 weight as was on the load manifest for that 

11 flight? 

12 A Yes, it is. 

13 Q And again, the testimony today, 

14 the cargo load report was incorrect. From 

15 that fact, can you infer that the load 

16 manifest was also incorrect? 

17 A Yes, that is correct. 

18 Q And if the load manifest was 

19 incorrect, would that mean that the 

2 0 performance data used for the flight was also 

21 incorrect? 

22 A Yes, that would be correct. 

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1 Q Turning now to Flight 6756 from 

2 Chicago 0 'Hare to Colorado Springs, also Case 

3 Number 2012-0872. And this is going to be 

4 Exhibits C-8 and C-9. 

5 Does the weight listed on the load 

6 manifest match the weight calculated using the 

7 cargo load report in evidence as C-8? 

8 A Yes, it does match. 

9 Q And again, from that can we infer 

10 that the load manifest is incorrect? 

11 A Yes, we can. 

12 Q And that the performance data for 

13 the flight was also incorrect? 

14 A That is correct. 

15 Q Turning now to Flight 6991 on 

16 March 9, 2011 from Chicago to Colorado 

17 Springs, that would be Exhibit C-11 and C-12. 

18 Did the weight listed on the load 

19 manifest match the weight calculated using the 

20 CLR data that is in evidence as C-11? 

21 A Yes, it matches. 

22 Q And having heard testimony today 

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1 that the CLR was inaccurate and didn't reflect 

2 the actual aircraft loading, can you then 

3 infer the load manifest was incorrect? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And that therefore, the 

6 performance data used in the conduct of the 

7 flight was incorrect? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Turning now to Flight 6960 on 

10 March 14, 2011 from Denver to Sioux Falls, 

11 that would be Exhibit 13 and 14. 

12 Did the weight listed on the load 

13 manifest for this flight, does it match the 

14 weight calculated based on the data contained 

15 in the cargo load report, Exhibit C-13? 

16 A Yes, it does. 

17 Q And again, we have heard testimony 

18 that the cargo load report was incorrect. Can 

19 we then infer that the load manifest was 

20 incorrect? 

21 A That is correct. 

22 Q And 1 ikewise, because the load 

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1 manifest was incorrect, performance data used 

2 to conduct the flight was incorrect. 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q If you could now discuss Flight 

5 6756 on April 7, 2011 from Chicago to Colorado 

6 Springs. We are now looking at Exhibit C-16 

7 and C-17. Did the weight listed on the load 

8 manifest correlate with the weight calculated 

9 using the information contained in the cargo 

10 load report, Exhibit C-16? 

11 A Yes, it is the same. 

12 Q And again, having heard testimony 

13 today that the cargo load report was 

14 inaccurate, the load manifest was inaccurate? 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q And ln that case, would the 

17 performance data used to operate the aircraft 

18 have been inaccurate? 

19 A It would be, yes. 

20 Q Next is Flight 4553 on March 3rd 

21 from San Diego to Salt Lake City, Exhibits C22 18 and C-19. 

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1 Did the weight listed on the load 

2 manifest reflect the weight calculated using 

3 the cargo load report data? 

4 A Yes, it is the same. 

5 Q And again, does that mean the load 

6 manifest was incorrect? 

7 A Yes, it does. 

8 Q And the performance data? 

9 A Yes, it was. 

10 Q The performance was incorrect? 

11 A Yes, it was. 

12 Q Next Flight 4445 on March 3rd from 

13 Phoenix to Salt Lake City. So, it would be 

14 Exhibits 24 and 25. 

15 Did the load manifest and the 

16 weight as calculated using the cargo load 

17 report reflect each other? 

18 A Yes, they are the same. 

19 Q Does that mean the load manifest 

20 was inaccurate? 

21 A Yes, it does. 

22 Q And the performance data was 

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1 inaccurate. 

2 A Yes, that is correct. 

3 Q Turning now to Flight 4781 on June 

4 15th from Salt Lake City to Reno. Did the 

5 weight on the load manifest reflect the weight 

6 as calculated using Exhibit C-29, the cargo 

7 load report for the flight? 

8 A Yes, they match. 

9 Q And again, having heard testimony 

10 that the cargo load report was inaccurate, was 

11 the load manifest inaccurate? 

12 A Yes, it was. 

13 Q Would the performance data have 

14 been inaccurate? 

15 A Yes, it would have been. 

16 Q Next is Flight 1160 on July 14, 

17 2011 from Houston to Colorado Springs. This 

18 is going to be Exhibits C-32 and C-33. 

19 Did the weight of cargo listed on 

20 the load manifest correlate with the cargo 

21 weight calculated using the cargo load report, 

22 Exhibit C-32? 

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1 A It does not appear to from my 

2 copy. 

3 Q Okay. And Flight 5449 on November 

4 16, 2011 from Denver to Rock Springs. 

5 Does the weight reflected on the 

6 load manifest reflect the cargo weight 

7 calculated using Exhibit C-34? 

8 A Yes, those are the same. 

9 Q And having heard the testimony 

10 today that the cargo load report was 

11 inaccurate, if the cargo load report was 

12 inaccurate, would the load manifest have been 

13 inaccurate? 

14 A Yes, it would have been. 

15 Q And if the load manifest was 

16 inaccurate, would the performance data used to 

17 dispatch the flight have been inaccurate? 

18 A Yes, it would have been. 

19 Q Now in a couple of these cases 

20 from the evidence, for example, Exhibit C-21, 

21 the load manifest weight matched the cargo 

22 load report and it was the actual weight of 

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1 the aircraft as calculated using approved 

2 procedures. Is there a reason why this is 

3 still a violation? 

4 A Yes. Part of the approved program 

5 describes procedures for completion of the 

6 CLR. And failure to follow those procedures 

7 is still a violation, whether or not the 

8 number is correct is really not relevant to 

9 whether those procedures were actually 

10 followed. 

11 Q So, if I could draw an analogy and 

12 put it another way, it is not enough to get 

13 the right answer. You have to show your work 

14 to get the answer and that work also has to be 

15 correct. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q Based on your review of the case 

18 files, the testimony you have heard today and 

19 your training as a pilot who is type rated in 

20 each of the aircraft types at issue here 

21 today, do you believe there was any actual 

22 impact on safety posed by these discrepancies? 

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1 A I do. 

2 Q What is that safety impact? 

3 A Well, the impact is the unknown. 

4 We are looking at all of these after the fact. 

5 During the time of the operation of the 

6 flight, none of this was known and the actual 

7 discrepancy really could not be accounted for 

8 ln the performance of the airplane. 

9 Q So, it wouldn't surprise you if it 

10 turned out that all of the aircraft, as it 

11 happened, turned out to be operated within 

12 their weight and balance envelope? 

13 A It wouldn't surprise me, no. I 

14 wouldn't. 

15 Q But your concern is that we know 

16 that now but SkyWest couldn't have known that 

17 then because of the errors. 

18 A Correct. 

19 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q Mr. Ayers, you just testified you 

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1 have to show the work to get the answer. Is 

2 that correct? 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q Okay. So, how come we don't have 

5 the back sides of the CLRs to show how the 

6 loading agents computed and counted all these 

7 pieces? 

8 A The work is done on the front side 

9 of the worksheet where the math is tallied up. 

10 Q Yes, but the back side of the CLR 

11 is basically the worksheet to assist the 

12 loading agents in counting. Correct? 

13 A It is an assistance, yes. 

14 Q And they tick off little boxes and 

15 make little marks. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And so if the process is as 

18 important as the answer, wouldn't it have been 

19 beneficial, in connection with the 

20 investigationof these cases, to have provided 

21 the back sides of the station copies of the 

22 CLRs so we could have seen what was going 

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1 through the loading agents' minds? 

2 A It would have been beneficial. 

3 Q But we don't have it, do we? 

4 A We don't. 

5 Q Because we didn't ask for it. 

6 And your testimony is predicated 

7 upon the assumption that the inspectors, when 

8 they were counting all of this offloaded 

9 baggage, they in fact counted correctly. 

10 A That is correct. 

11 Q Okay. And sometimes counting 

12 correctly can be a challenge. 

13 A It can. 

14 Q Whether it is marbles, poker 

15 chips, money, bags. It is normal human 

16 behavior to miscount or forget where you were. 

17 A Sure. 

18 Q Have you ever miscounted 

19 something? 

20 A I have. 

21 Q This is really a human factors 

22 issue. Correct? 

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1 A I would disagree. 

2 Q Were you the principle operations 

3 inspector for SkyWest when these cases arose 

4 in 2011? 

5 A A portion of them. 

6 Q Now, with respect to Exhibit R-21, 

7 which is the corrected CLR, this was the 

8 station copy. Is that correct? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. And it appears that this 

11 CLR, that R-21 actually came after C-21. It 

12 looks like somebody at the station had 

13 corrected the CLR. Is that correct? 

14 A It certainly looks like an 

15 entirely different document. 

16 Q Well, let's go back to C-21 and, 

17 if you could, put R-21 and C-21 side-by-side. 

18 When there is a change to the aircraft load, 

19 the originating station, the station that 

2 0 loads the aircraft is supposed to correct the 

21 CLR. Is that correct? 

22 A Correct. 

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1 Q Okay. So, you say this looks like 

2 a completely different document but how are 

3 they completely different documents? 

4 A Well, perhaps I shouldn't have 

5 implied that they were actually separate 

6 documents. But the fact that the numbers for 

7 the COMAT and ballast are not struck out and 

8 revised but entirely erased and changed makes 

9 it appear to be different in that column. 

10 Q Okay. But the 35 under standard 

11 checked bags, that appears to be the same, 

12 doesn't it? 

13 A It does. 

14 Q And the heavy checked bags below 

15 that seems to be the same. 

16 A It does. 

17 Q And then you have got, it looks 

18 like there may have been a change on the plane 

19 side valet bags on C-21. It looks like 

20 somebody wrote an 11 and then they put in a 

21 two. And then on R-21, it looks like they 

22 made that 12 and 11 again. 

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1 A It does. 

2 Q And the fact of the matter is you 

3 have only, with respect to that particular 

4 case involving Flight 4540, you haven't 

5 alleged any miscounts of checked bags. It 

6 appears the FAA's sole gripe was COMAT versus 

7 ballast. Is that correct? 

8 A I believe that is what counsel 

9 proposed, yes. 

10 Q As the POI, were you the one who 

11 assigned these inspectors the tasks to go out 

12 there and look at baggage being offloaded? 

13 A I did. 

14 Q Did you because of the 

15 frailties in humans' ability to accurately 

16 count, did you suggest to the inspectors that 

17 they not only count the bags but that they 

18 actually photograph the quantity of bags that 

19 they saw offloaded to document the difference 

20 between what was in the CLR and what they saw? 

21 A You mean photograph them once they 

22 have been taken off the airplane? 

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1 Q As they have been taken off, yes. 

2 A No, because the operational tempo 

3 typically doesn't allow for all those bags to 

4 be in the same place at one time, once they 

5 come off of the belt loader. 

6 Q I mean the ramp is a pretty fast 

7 acting place. Correct? 

8 A It is. 

9 Q And people are out there on the 

10 ramp. They are loading airplanes. I mean, 

11 these were not intentional. Correct? 

12 A I don't know that. 

13 Q Okay. I mean there is no evidence 

14 of any intention to purposely understate or 

15 overstate loads of aircraft. These rampers 

16 are running around. They are trying to turn 

17 flights. They are trying to load baggage, 

18 offload baggage, get the airplanes turned 

19 around. They are working pretty fast. 

20 Correct? 

21 A They are working fast. 

22 Q And the ramp is a pretty hostile 

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1 environment, is it not? 

2 A It is. 

3 Q It can be cold. It can be dark. 

4 It can be hot. It can be blustery. It is 

5 noisy. It is smelly. Right? 

6 A All those things. 

7 Q Not the best place to work. 

8 Agreed? 

9 A I would agree. 

10 Q Does SkyWest have an SMS? 

11 A They do. 

12 Q Okay. And what is an SMS? 

13 A An SMS is essentially a series of 

14 tools and programs that allow them to 

15 practically identify a risk and mitigate those 

16 risks that they identify and have processes 

17 and procedures in place to identify how they 

18 do that, when they do that, and what the 

19 outcomes are. 

20 Q And the risks under SMS are 

21 assigned different levels, dependir.g upon 

22 severity. Correct? 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q So, for instance, Category I would 

3 really not be a safety-related issue. 

4 A I would have to reference 

5 SkyWest's safety matrix to make that 

6 determination. 

7 Q Okay. Well, didn't you have a 

8 role ln the approval of the SMS? 

9 A I did. 

10 Q Okay. So, what would Category I 

11 be, generally? 

12 A I would agree with what your 

13 characterization of Category I was. 

14 Q Not really safety-related. 

15 A Generally, yes. 

16 Q Okay. Category III and IV, that 

17 is a lot more serious. Right? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q So, SkyWest didn't have an SMS at 

20 this time in 2011, did they? 

21 A They did not have the SMS they 

22 have now, no. 

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1 Q It was a work in process but the 

2 SMS that they have now was not around in 2011 

3 when these cases arose. 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q Okay. Under the SMS that SkyWest 

6 has now, would these cases really fall within 

7 Category I? 

8 A I can't say that because I am not 

9 responsible for assessing the risk but I would 

10 hope they would look at the actual risk not 

11 the specific case. 

12 Q Okay. Well, the risk associated 

13 with these cases, wouldn't this be more of a 

14 Category I? 

15 A It depends on what you 

16 characterize the risk as. 

17 Q Did you ever mention to anybody 

18 with respect to these eight cases, the 14 

19 flights, that you and the CMO were essentially 

20 tired of them and wanted to get on to more 

21 important things? 

22 A I'm sure that I never said I was 

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1 tired of them and wanted to move on to more 

2 important things. 

3 Q You didn't say that? 

4 A I did not. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. I have no 

6 further questions. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper. Just 

8 for the record, what does SMS stand for? 

9 MR. DWORKIN: Safety Management 

10 System. 

11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. HARPER: 

13 Q Mr. Ayers, what does SMS stand 

14 for? 

15 A Answer complete. 

16 Q Mr. Ayers, on cross-examination 

17 there was some discussion of what happens if 

18 there is last minute loading of the aircraft. 

19 And the fact that the station copy of the 

20 cargo load report has to be updated to reflect 

21 the last-minute additions. 

22 Are there any other documents that 

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1 have to reflect last-minute additions? 

2 A Well, both copies of the cargo 

3 load report should be updated and the load 

4 manifest, ultimately, is the one that needs to 

5 be updated to reflect those changes. 

6 Q So at the end of the day, if the 

7 load manifest is inaccurate, the process 

8 wasn't followed. 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q As part of SkyWest's weight and 

11 balance procedure, is COMAT required to be 

12 marked on the CLR as COMAT and is ballast 

13 required to be marked on the CLR as ballast? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q SkyWest' s program doesn't allow 

16 you to conflate the two, move some weight from 

17 one category to the other? 

18 A No. 

19 Q And again, as part of SkyWest's 

20 weight and balance program, when there is a 

21 live animal onboard the aircraft, does the 

22 program require that the fact that there is a 

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1 live animal in the cargo bin be marked on the 

2 cargo load report? 

3 A It does require that, yes. 

4 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

7 Q Let's talk about live animals for 

8 a second. A service animal, which presumably 

9 is alive 

10 MR. HARPER: Outside the scope, 

11 Your Honor. Objection. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: The question was 

14 about live animals. We are getting into live 

15 animals. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: But on redirect 

17 was there any query as to animals? 

18 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, my 

19 question on redirect was whether not live 

2 0 animals that are loaded in the cargo bin have 

21 to be marked on the cargo load report. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. I will 

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1 allow limited inquiry. 

2 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

3 Q Live animals, as baggage, they are 

4 assigned a weight of 30 pounds or 60 pounds. 

5 Is that correct? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q That would include the container. 

8 A Yes, checked baggage. That is 

9 correct. 

10 Q Okay. But animals can also be 

11 shipped as freight. 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q In which case, they are assigned a 

14 different weight. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q Whereas, if they are carried 

17 onboard the cabin, they are assigned no 

18 weight. 

19 A Right. 

20 MR. HARPER: Objection, Your 

21 Honor. This is outside the scope. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

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1 questions. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further 

3 questions, Mr. Harper? 

4 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I am going to 

6 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

7 prior to conclusion of the hearing. Since you 

8 are the Agency expert, you can return to the 

9 table or you can be excused. It is up to Mr. 

10 Harper. You are excused. 

11 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, the FAA 

12 rests. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let's take 

14 a -- I have got five minutes to two. Let's 

15 take a ten-minute break so Mr. Todd can make 

16 sure his computer still works. And then we 

17 will go back on the record. 

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 

19 went off the record at 1:55 p.m. 

20 and went back on the r.·ecord at 

21 2:10p.m.) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin. Mr. 

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1 Emerson. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, we are 

3 going to start with the video deposition of 

4 Carl Salamone. 

5 MR. EMERSON: I 've handed them 

6 out. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: You've handed them 

8 out, okay. The actual written transcript of 

9 the Salamone deposition is Exhibit R-3-1. And 

10 Mr. Salamone has also prepared a report, which 

11 is R-3-2. And we also have the video disk, 

12 which I guess for purposes of clarity in the 

13 record should be R-3-3. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Do you have 

15 the deposition on digital or not? 

16 MR. EMERSON: Yes. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

18 MR. EMERSON: I can send you back 

19 with a flash drive to plug ln your computer. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay or email it. 

21 MR . EMERSON: Email it to Mr. 

22 Court Reporter? 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Troy, what are you 

2 better off with? Are you better off with a 

3 digital or written? 

4 COURT REPORTER: We would use it 

5 for spellings. So, probably a digital, where 

6 we can get all the terms. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. If you can 

8 do it, just get a copy and you can email it to 

9 me or send it to him. Whatever. 

10 If you email it to me, that's fine 

11 but do me a favor and send it to me in PDF and 

12 Word form. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: So, R-1-1 would be 

14 the transcript. R-2 -- sorry. R-3-1 will be 

15 the transcript. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: You mean R-3-1. 

17 MR. Dlii'ORKIN: R-3-1 is the 

18 transcript. R-3-2 is the report and --

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: That is the 

20 SkyWest ballast. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: And R-3-3 would be 

2 the actual video disk. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's this? 

4 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. And Mr. 

5 Emerson is going to work his technological 

6 wonders and play the video depo for us. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Should Mr. Harper 

8 and I leave and come back later when it is 

9 working correctly? 

10 MR. EMERSON: It's working. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Famous last words. 

12 Troy, do you have a copy to go 

13 along? 

14 MR. EMERSON: Sir, is that enough 

15 illumination for you to do your work? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

17 MR. EMERSON: This is Disk 1 of 

18 the deposition of Carl Salamone. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Harper, 

20 preliminarily, do you have any objection? I 

21 assume you were the person at the deposition? 

22 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

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1 Actually, I was present by telephone at the 

2 deposition. Mr. Emerson has coordinated with 

3 me ahead of time whether I had any objection 

4 to the video, the editing that has been done 

5 to the video and the transcript. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

7 (Whereupon, a video deposit ion was 

8 played.) 

9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: May 6, 2014. 

10 We are on the record at 8:00 a.m. Today's 

11 testimony is regarding SkyWest Airlines, 

12 Incorporated. Present in the room is Robert 

13 Stanley. My name is Joel Hilkert, the 

14 videographer. 

15 Will all present please state 

16 their appearances for the record and then the 

17 witness can be sworn. 

18 MR. EMERSON: Todd Emerson, 

19 Counsel for SkyWest Airlines. 

20 MR. HARPER: Jeffrey Harper, 

21 Counsel for the Federal Aviation 

22 Administration. 

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1 MR. · RICHARDS : Lynn Richards, 

2 Flight Standards Regional Office. 

3 MR. SALAMONE: Carl Salamone, 

4 pilot for SkyWest Airlines. 

5 (Whereupon, Mr. Salamone was 

6 sworn.) 

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. EMERSON: 

9 Q Good morning, Mr. Salamone. 

10 A Good morning. 

11 Q Would you please state your name 

12 for the record and give us your business 

13 address? 

14 A My name is Carl Salamone. My 

15 business address is 444 South River Road, 

16 Saint George, Utah 84790. 

17 Q Mr. Salamone, you are about to 

18 give testimony in a proceeding that is as if 

19 you were ln a courtroom today. You have been 

20 placed under oath and you are required by law 

21 to tell the truth. I want to proceed as if 

22 you were in that setting and with it being 

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1 recorded and your testimony will be played for 

2 a judge at a later date. 

3 Do you understand? 

4 A Yes, sir, I understand. 

5 MR. EMERSON: All right. Jeff, is 

6 there any -- are there any exhortations you 

7 would like to give the witness before we 

8 begin? 

9 MR. HARPER: No. 

10 BY MR. EMERSON: 

11 Q Mr. Salamone, how are you 

12 employed? 

13 A I am employed as a pilot for 

14 SkyWest Airlines and also a member of a 

15 special projects group. 

16 Q How long have you been employed by 

17 SkyWest? 

18 A For just over seven years. 

19 Q What was your first position when 

20 you started at SkyWest? 

21 A My first position with SkyWest was 

22 a first officer on Canadair Regional Jets. 

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1 Q How long did you serve as a first 

2 officer? 

3 A Until my current -- I am currently 

4 still serving as a first officer. 

5 Q And when did you move into special 

6 projects? 

7 A Approximately five years ago I 

8 moved into special projects and I fly as well 

9 as doing special projects. So, it is a bit of 

10 a dual duty. 

11 Q What are some of those projects 

12 that you are involved in? 

13 A Well, this has been one of them, 

14 analysis of weight and balance. I also have 

15 been involved in fuel strategies and fuel 

16 performance, been involved in external weight 

17 and balance inspections from the FAA to IOSA 

18 and IATA and the Department of Defense as 

19 well. 

20 Q Do you hold any FAA certificates? 

21 A Yes, I do. 

22 Q What do you hold? 

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1 A I hold an airline transport pilot 

2 certificate for the CL-65 type aircraft. I 

3 also hold a flight instructor's certificate 

4 and an advanced ground instructor and an 

5 instrument ground instructor certificate. 

6 Q Are all of those certificates 

7 current? 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q Are you rated in the 200? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q In the 700? 

12 A Yes, sir. 

13 Q Are you also rated in the 900? 

14 A Yes, sir. 

15 Q Have you operated all three of 

16 those aircraft? 

17 A Yes, I have. 

18 Q How many total flight hours have 

19 you logged? 

20 A Approximately 4200 total hours. 

21 Q And how many in the regional jet? 

22 A Approximately 3200 in the Canadair 

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1 Regional Jets. 

2 Q Do you have any formal education? 

3 A Yes, I do. 

4 Q Beyond high school? 

5 A Yes, I do. I have a bachelor of 

6 science degree in electrical engineering from 

7 the University of Illinois and a bachelor of 

8 science degree in aviation human factors, also 

9 from the University of Illinois. 

10 Q What does that mean, a degree in 

11 aviation human factors? 

12 A Aviation human factors is the 

13 study of human factors principles in research 

14 and psychology as it will relate specifically 

15 to aviation in the human elements of aviation 

16 safety. 

17 Q The weight and balance system that 

18 you studied, would that involve human factors? 

19 A Yes, it would. 

20 Q Have you, in the course of 

21 operating these regional jets, had occasion to 

22 calculate aircraft weight and CG balance? 

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1 A Yes, I have. 

2 Q About how many times? 

3 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat the 

4 question again with respect to this analysis 

5 only? 

6 Q Just in operating aircraft, about 

7 how many? Could you estimate? 

8 A Well, I would estimate that I have 

9 flown about 3, 000 flights but that is an 

10 estimate, an approximation. So, each flight 

11 recelves a weight and balance calculation 

12 prior to that flight. 

13 Q You would be engaged in that 

14 calculation each time? 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q So, approximately 3,000 times. 

17 A Correct. 

18 Q Are you trained by SkyWest on how 

19 to calculate weight and balance 

20 A Yes, sir, I am. 

21 Q Also, it is helpful for me to 

22 finish a question before you answer. It will 

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1 be clearer for the record. 

2 A My apologies. 

3 Q I know I'm a little long-winded. 

4 So, wait for me to finish. 

5 So, you were trained by SkyWest in 

6 how to calculate --

7 A Yes, sir, I was. 

8 Q -- weight and balance? 

9 That also happened in your 

10 university training or your flight school 

11 training? 

12 A In flight school training, you are 

13 trained to compute weight and balance for all 

14 their types of aircraft. Training for the 

15 Canadair jets, specifically, was provided by 

16 SkyWest Airlines, too. 

17 Q And then you have also performed 

18 calculations for special projects. Is that 

19 right? 

20 A What type of calculations? 

21 Q Weight and balance calculations. 

22 A Yes, that is correct. 

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1 MR. EMERSON: SkyWest offers Mr. 

2 Salamone as an expert in the field of aircraft 

3 weight and balance and center of gravity 

4 calculations, specifically pertaining to 

5 Canadair Regional Jet Series 200, 700, and 

6 900. 

7 MR. HARPER: I don't have any 

8 objection to him being offered as an expert in 

9 the field of calculation of aircraft weight 

10 and balance and the effects of that weight and 

11 balance on the aircraft performance. 

12 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

13 (Whereupon, the video was paused.) 

14 MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, SkyWest 

15 offers Mr. Salamone as an expert witness. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hearing no 

17 objection, the Court will accept him as an 

18 expert in the field stated. 

19 (Whereupon, the video deposition 

2 0 resumed.) 

21 BY MR. EMERSON: 

22 Q Mr. Salamone, you have a document 

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1 in front of you. Can you identify that 

2 document? 

3 A Yes, I can. This is a weight and 

4 balance analysis covering 14 flights and it is 

5 a recreation of those flights, based on the 

6 data available to me on the weight and balance 

7 as calculated by the crew and also the alleged 

8 weight and balance as it would have been 

9 observed by an inspector. 

10 Q When did you prepare this report? 

11 A This report is dated April 20, 

12 2014. 

13 Q This has been marked as 

14 Respondent's Exhibit 1 and a copy will be 

15 provided to the Court. And opposing counsel 

16 has a copy to follow along with us. 

17 Would you turn to page 2 of this 

18 report? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Why did you prepare this report, 

21 Mr. Salamone? 

22 A I prepared this report at the 

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1 request of Flight Operations Management in 

2 response an initial investigation received 

3 from the FAA for the flights in question. 

4 Q And you said there were 14 

5 flights. 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q What factors did you take into 

8 account as you analyzed the weight and balance 

9 of those flights? 

10 A In the analysis of these flights, 

11 I took all information that was available to 

12 me, the cargo load reports, the load 

13 manifests, electronic, if available, the 

14 inspector's statement from the FAA, as far as 

15 the alleged weight or items that may have been 

16 present. And also then, the manufacturer 

17 documentation for the Canadair series jets to 

18 determine performance and the weight and 

19 balance in that respect. 

20 Q How about runway lengths? Did you 

21 take that into account? 

22 A Yes, sir. 

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1 Q Air temperature? 

2 A Yes, sir. 

3 Q Fuel, fuel weights? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q Okay. Why is it -- in your report 

6 you have three principle factors that you 

7 analyzed: aircraft weight, center of gravity, 

8 then runway performance, climb performance, 

9 and maximum operating altitude. 

10 Can you define aircraft takeoff 

11 weight? Can you explain to the Court what 

12 that means? 

13 A Yes, the aircraft takeoff weight 

14 is the gross weight of the aircraft in the 

15 takeoff configuration, as it would begin the 

16 takeoff segment of the flight. 

17 So, essentially, the full weight 

18 of the airplane immediatelyprior to beginning 

19 takeoff. 

20 Q And that would include the 

21 passenger weight? 

22 A Yes. 

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1 Q Cargo? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Luggage? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Ballast? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q The fuel weight? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q And then the actual weight of the 

10 aircraft itself? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q The wheels 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q -- the engines, the hull, all of 

15 it? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Okay. And how about aircraft 

18 takeoff center of gravity? What does that 

19 entail? 

20 A Aircraft takeoff center of gravity 

21 is the location of the center of gravity at a 

22 point on the airplane and it is calculated to 

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1 ensure that the plane remains in balance for 

2 the manufacturer's specifications throughout 

3 that flight. 

4 Q And what is center of gravity? 

5 What does that mean? 

6 A Center of gravity is the single 

7 point, it is a mathematical point. It is a 

8 single point like a teeter-totter, where that 

9 airplane would balance on one particular point 

10 where the weight is mathematically seen on 

11 that location on the airplane. 

12 Q Why is it important to know the 

13 center of gravity on the aircraft? 

14 A Well, it is important for 

15 stability reasons, for control reasons, and it 

16 is really just a major part of the physics of 

17 flight, to ensure that the plane will perform 

18 as it was designed to. 

19 Q And then the other factors are 

20 runway performance, flight climb performance, 

21 and maximum operating altitude. What do those 

22 factors mean? 

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1 A Well, essentially what those 

2 factors mean is that the airplane won't be too 

3 heavy to meet its performance requirements and 

4 performance planning. So, an airplane is 

5 operated at a weight that will ensure that the 

6 runway is adequate, that the climbing 

7 performance will be adequate, and that it will 

8 be able to obtain its operating altitude for 

9 all phases of flight and complete that flight 

10 as planned. 

11 Q Mr. Salamone, you performed an 

12 aircraft takeoff weight analysis for the 14 

13 flights in question in these cases in your 

14 report. In -- under the weights that the 

15 crew had recorded and believed that they were 

16 operating under, in any of those 14 flights, 

17 did the aircraft takeoff weight exceed the 

18 maximums? 

19 A No, they did not. 

20 Q Were they unsafe in any way? 

21 A I don't believe so. 

22 Q Okay, but how about as observed by 

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1 the FAA inspector, adding additional weight 

2 for bags and subtracting weight for bags, or 

3 the ballast or cargo that may not have been 

4 accounted for by the crew? Adding those and 

5 subtracting those, did you find that the 

6 aircraft weight exceeded any tolerances? 

7 A I did not. 

8 Q Or was unsafe in any way? 

9 A No, I did not. 

10 Q How about for an aircraft takeoff 

11 center of gravity? Again, two parts, as 

12 calculated by the crew on those 14 flights, 

13 did you find any of those 14 flights where the 

14 center of gravity left the manufacturer's 

15 suggested limits? 

16 A I did not. 

17 Q How about as perceived by the FAA 

18 inspector? 

19 A I did not. 

20 Q Then the last factor for aircraft 

21 runway performance and climb performance, and 

22 maximum operating altitude. In your 

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1 calculations, were the crews' calculations 

2 accurate as pertaining to the cargo and weight 

3 that they believed that they had? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And did those calculations exceed 

6 the manufacturer's suggested limitations? 

7 A It did not. 

8 Q How about as perceived by the FAA 

9 inspectors? 

10 A No, they did not. 

11 Q So, in all three of those factors, 

12 either as calculated by the SkyWest crews at 

13 the time or adjusting for the observed 

14 variations by FAA inspectors, none of the 

15 flights would have been in excess of the 

16 manufacturer'slimitationsfor takeoff weight, 

17 center of gravity, runway performance, climb 

18 performance, or maximum operating altitude? 

19 A That is correct. None of these 

20 flights would have had any exceedance. 

21 Q Can you turn with me to page 4 of 

22 your report? I call your attention to Flight 

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1 4553 operated on March 3, 2011, aircraft 

2 number N800SK. It was a 900 type RJ and it 

3 was operated between San Diego and Salt Lake 

4 City. Did you do an analysis for this flight? 

5 A Yes, I did. 

6 Q Could you tell me what you 

7 analyzed? 

8 A Yes, one moment, please. 

9 For this flight, I analyzed the 

10 cargo load report as well as the alleged 

11 baggage loading as observed by the FAA 

12 inspector. 

13 Q What did you find? 

14 A I found that the total weight 

15 adjustment, as alleged by the FAA inspector, 

16 would have been somewhere between 120 and 150 

17 pounds of additional weight beyond what was 

18 accounted for by the flight crew. 

19 Q And even adding any of those 

20 variations, did this cause the airplane to be 

21 out of compliance with center of gravity or 

22 weight and balance? 

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1 A No, it did not. 

2 Q Turn to page 5, Flight 4445 also 

3 operating on March 3, 2011. This is a CRJ 

4 type 700 operating between Phoenix and Salt 

5 Lake City. Did you do an analysis of this 

6 flight? 

7 A Yes, sir, I did. 

8 Q We will let you refresh yourself 

9 there. And then if you would go ahead and 

10 tell us what you analyzed and what you found. 

11 A For this flight, I found that the 

12 alleged items observed by the FAA inspector 

13 would have resulted in an additional 90 pounds 

14 of cargo onboard above and beyond the amount 

15 calculated by the flight crew. 

16 Q What affect did that extra weight 

17 and balance have on the operation of this 

18 flight? 

19 A The 90 pounds would have had zero 

20 effect on the operation of this flight. 

21 Q Why is that? 

22 A That is because the additional 90 

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1 pounds would have left the aircraft's gross 

2 weight still well below the maximum gross 

3 weight for that runway use and the center of 

4 gravity is well within the envelope provided 

5 by the manufacturer for this aircraft for this 

6 configuration. 

7 Q How far below the takeoff weight 

8 did the airplane remain? 

9 A As calculated by the flight crew, 

10 the takeoff weight was 4, 453 pounds, below the 

11 maximum runway takeoff weight. As observed by 

12 the inspector, it would be less 90 pounds. 

13 So, just some quick math in my head, I would 

14 believe that to be 4,363 pounds. 

15 Q So, explain to me, in order to 

16 take off, the runway limitation was 71,000 

17 pounds. The aircraft came in at about 67, 000 

18 pounds. You have got 4, 000 pounds of play for 

19 that aircraft for power at takeoff, the thrust 

20 of the engines. Is it your opinion that this 

21 would have then zero, without much play, zero 

22 impact on the operation of that aircraft? 

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1 A Yes, I feel that the effect of an 

2 additional 90 pounds would have been 

3 negligible. 

4 Q Now, the center of gravity 

5 changes, doesn't it, Mr. Salamone, over the 

6 course of the flight? 

7 A Yes, it does. 

8 Q So, here you calculated center of 

9 gravity that you calculated at the time of 

10 takeoff? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q Do you calculate it at cruise and 

13 also at arrival? 

14 A No, we do not. Through the 

15 approved weight and balance program, the 

16 center of gravity calculation, as it is 

17 calculated prior to takeoff, will ensure that 

18 the center of gravity will remain within the 

19 manufacturer envelope for the entire duration 

20 of that flight. 

21 Q Can you walk us through how a 

22 center of gravity calculation is done? I see 

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1 at the back of this report you included a 

2 couple of charts and figures. 

3 A Yes. So, particularly, this 

4 Flight here, 4445, was a CRJ-700 series. So, 

5 if you turn to page 19 of the report, this 

6 contains a Bombardier CRJ-700 series weight 

7 and balance envelope. 

8 Now, to use this envelope, it is a 

9 plot. On the left-hand side of the chart, it 

10 is aircraft weight in thousands of pounds. On 

11 the bottom axis of the chart is the location 

12 of the center of gravity. Now, that is an 

13 index in inches, which is just a unit of 

14 measurement. On the top end of the chart is 

15 percent, mean aerodynamic chord, which is what 

16 has been referenced in my report. 

17 So, for this particular flight, 

18 the calculated and observed or alleged takeoff 

19 weights, would have been very close to 67,000 

20 pounds. And the crew calculated center of 

21 gravity was located at 22.19 percent mean 

22 aerodynamic chord. The alleged configuration 

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1 would have shifted that takeoff center of 

2 gravity to a location at 22.46 percent of mean 

3 aerodynamic chord. 

4 So by plotting this on the figure 

5 found on page 19, at 67,000 pounds, the 

6 intersection of 67,000 pounds and 22 percent, 

7 22 to 23 percent mean aerodynamic chord, 

8 really results in a very small or negligible, 

9 ln my opinion, ln change in center of gravity 

10 location. 

11 Q More or less than an inch? 

12 A An inch in terms of physical? 

13 Q Yes. 

14 A You know, that would require a 

15 calculation. I would assume not but to do 

16 that, I would need to do a calculation. 

17 Q But again, negligible change. 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q So you found that for this flight 

20 either under the flight crew's calculations or 

21 calculating with the observed weight of the 

22 FAA that the center of gravity remains 

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1 basically the center of the envelope. Is that 

2 correct? 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q All right, let's look at page 6 of 

5 your report. This involved the flight from 

6 Missoula to Salt Lake City, operating again on 

7 March 3, 2011, Flight 4540. And here you have 

8 a discrepancy between ballast and COMAT, as it 

9 was recorded on the CLR. But if I did the 

10 math correctly, there's no actual difference 

11 in weight. It is 350 pounds either way. Is 

12 that right? 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q Did you do a center of gravity and 

15 weight analysis for this flight? 

16 A Yes, sir, I did. 

17 Q What was your conclusion? 

18 A My conclusion is that the flight 

19 crew accurately calculated the gross weight 

20 for this airplane to take off at 49,863 pounds 

21 along with a center of gravity location 

22 located at 10.10 percent mean aerodynamic 

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l chord. The observed configuration resulted in 

2 no change to that weight. So, the airplane 

3 would have performed as planned and the load 

4 manifest but for this flight, it would have 

5 been 100 percent accurate. 

6 Q Thank you. Let's turn to page 7. 

7 It is also for March 3, 2011. This is Flight 

8 4613 from Omaha to Salt Lake City involved the 

9 CRJ-900. This one involved animals loaded on 

10 the aircraft and how they were calculated. 

11 Can you walk us through this, your 

12 analysis and your report? 

13 A Yes, I can. The report, FAA 

14 report, indicates that the two live animals 

15 were loaded on this aircraft and not indicated 

16 on the cargo load report. The cargo load 

17 report does indicate 3 0 pounds of freight, 

18 which is the correct location to record this 

19 type of shipment, and that the only omission 

20 on this CLR or cargo load report was to have 

21 circled that live animals were present in the 

22 cargo pit. And this is really a flight crew 

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1 notification and only that a live animal was 

2 present on the aircraft. And the load 

3 manifest for this flight also was 100 percent 

4 accurate. 

5 Q So, no change in weight or CG? 

6 A That is correct. 

7 Q Would you turn to page 8 now, 

8 please? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Page 8 details a flight that is 

11 operating on March 8, 2011 Flight 4461, 

12 aircraft tail number N804SK, which was a 900 

13 type regional jet, this time from Los Angeles 

14 to Las Vegas. And this one involved two heavy 

15 bags present in the cargo compartment. 

16 Did you analyze this flight? 

17 A Yes, I did. 

18 Q Can you walk us through your 

19 analysis and your conclusions, please? 

20 A Yes, I can. The FAA inspector 

21 report documents that two heavy bags were 

22 present in the cargo compartment, while zero 

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1 heavy bags were accounted for on the cargo 

2 load report. For this particular flight, we 

3 don't have a total piece count. So, it is not 

4 possible to determine if these two heavy bags 

5 were counted as standard bags on the cargo 

6 load report or had just not been counted at 

7 all. 

8 So, the weight discrepancy, 

9 depending on whether or not they had been 

10 counted as a standard i tern or not, the maximum 

11 discrepancy here could have been up to 12 0 

12 pounds additional weight as observed. 

13 Q Did that fall outside of the 

14 acceptable maximum takeoff weight? 

15 A It did not. 

16 Q How about the center of gravity? 

17 A It was also well within the 

18 manufacturer's specified envelope. 

19 Q And is there anything that gave 

20 you pause about the safety of this flight, 

21 then, for either the center of gravity or the 

22 weight as adjusted for the observations by the 

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1 FAA? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Let 1 s turn to page 9. This is 

4 Flight 6756 operated on March 9, 2011. The 

5 aircraft number N907SW, a 200 type regional 

6 jet opera ted between Chicago and Colorado 

7 Springs, Colorado. This one also involves 

8 counting an additional heavy bag. 

9 Did you have the opportunity to 

10 analyze this flight? 

11 A Yes, I did. 

12 Q Can you walk us through your 

13 analysis, please? 

14 A Yes. This analysis for this 

15 flight is very similar to the previous flight. 

16 The FAA reports that one heavy bag was present 

17 in the cargo compartment, while zero heavy 

18 bags were accounted for on the cargo load 

19 report. 

20 Again, we don 1 t know the total 

21 piece count of standard and heavy i terns. So, 

22 the --

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1 Q We don't know it because it wasn't 

2 

3 A It was not reported. 

4 Q reported by the FAA inspector. 

5 A Correct. So, it is not possible 

6 to determine if this heavy bag that had been 

7 observed was a part of the standard count or 

8 not. The total discrepancy would have been 

9 either 30 or a maximum of 60 pounds deviation 

10 from the load report. 

11 Q Would that 30 or 60 pounds have a 

12 noticeable impact on the center of gravity or 

13 aircraft weight limitations? 

14 A No, it wouldn't have. 

15 Q Do you expect the aircraft to 

16 operate without any problems under both of 

17 these conditions, as reported? 

18 A Yes, I would assume that the 

19 flight crew would have been unaware of the 

20 discrepancy. 

21 Q Unaware by the way that the 

22 aircraft responded to the additional weight? 

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1 A Correct. 

2 Q And turning to page 10, this is 

3 March 9, 2011, Flight 6991. This is also a 

4 200 type regional jet operated from Chicago to 

5 Colorado Springs, tail number N973SW. This 

6 one also reports -- is a case involving two 

7 heavy bags that were observed by the FAA that 

8 they didn't find listed on the CLR. 

9 Did you have the opportunity, Mr. 

10 Salamone, to analyze this flight? 

11 A Yes, I did. 

12 Q What did you find? 

13 A This flight is, again, very 

14 similar to the previous two in that the two 

15 heavy bags observed by the FAA were -- let me 

16 correct that. We don't have a total baggage 

17 piece count that is provided by the FAA. So, 

18 the observed two bags may or may not have been 

19 included in the standard piece count. The 

20 total weight deviation would have been an 

21 either additional 60 or 120 pounds, based on 

22 whether or not those bags had been included as 

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1 standard bags. 

2 Q If that additional 60 or 120 

3 pounds were present on the aircraft, would it 

4 have moved the center of gravity outside of 

5 the acceptable envelope? 

6 A It would not. 

7 Q Would it have exceeded the maximum 

8 takeoff weight? 

9 A No, sir, it would not. 

10 Q Would it have exceeded any other 

11 limitations set on the aircraft by the 

12 manufacturer under these conditions? 

13 A No, it would not. 

14 Q Do you think that the flight crew 

15 would been able to notice or feel any 

16 difference in the aircraft's performance? 

17 A No, sir. 

18 Q Turning to page 11, this is a 

19 flight that was operated on March 14, 2011, 

20 Flight 6960, a 200 type regional jet from 

21 Denver to help me. 

22 A Sioux Falls. 

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1 Q Sioux Falls. 

2 A Sioux Falls, South Dakota. 

3 Q Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And 

4 the tail number N679SA. In this case, the FAA 

5 reports that one heavy bag was present in the 

6 cargo compartment, while zero heavy bags were 

7 accounted for on the cargo load report. 

8 Did you have a chance to analyze 

9 this case? 

10 A Yes, I did. 

11 Q What did you find? 

12 A I found that the same exists here; 

13 that we are unable to tell if this one heavy 

14 bag was documented as a standard bag or was 

15 not documented at all. 

16 The resulting weight deviation 

17 would have been either an additional30 pounds 

18 or 60 pounds above what the flight crew had 

19 planned on the load manifest. 

20 Q Would that additional weight have 

21 moved the center of gravity outside the 

22 acceptable envelope of limitations? 

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1 A It would not. 

2 Q How about the maximum takeoff 

3 weight? 

4 A No, it wouldn't. 

5 Q Fuel planning? 

6 A Fuel planning would have been very 

7 close. The additional weight may have caused 

8 a slight increase in fuel usage, just because 

9 it costs more to fly around the extra weight. 

10 However, SkyWest has a policy of 

11 adding contingency fuel that is above and 

12 beyond the federal required fuel and any 

13 nominal increase in burn would have been 

14 accounted for and included in that contingency 

15 fuel. 

16 Q Does that stay true for the 

17 flights we have analyzed previous to this? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q So, with the additional weight, as 

2 0 observed by the FAA inspector, would that have 

21 impacted safety on this flight in any respect? 

22 A No, I don't believe so. 

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1 Q Turn to page 12, please. This is 

2 a flight operated on April 7, 2011, Flight 

3 6756, a 700 type CRJ operated from Chicago to 

4 Colorado Springs, tail number N755SK. 

5 Here, the FAA reports that 33 

6 standard and two heavy bags were present in 

7 the cargo compartment but the CLR indicates 

8 that 30 standard and zero heavy bags were 

9 present in the aft cargo compartment. 

10 Did you have the opportunity to 

11 analyze this flight? 

12 A Yes, I did. 

13 Q What did you find, Mr. Salamone? 

14 A I found that the observed weight 

15 would have resulted in an additional 210 

16 pounds located in the aft compartment the 

17 aft cargo compartment over what was indicated 

18 on the cargo load report. 

19 Q The aircraft was approximately 

20 6,000poundsbelowmaximumtakeoffweight. Is 

21 that correct? 

22 A That is correct. 

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1 Q So adding another 210 pounds with 

2 6,000 pounds of play, what kind of an effect 

3 does that have on the aircraft performance? 

4 A It would have had a very minimal 

5 effect on aircraft performance. 

6 Q Well, did it exceed the maximum 

7 takeoff weights? 

8 A No, it did not. 

9 Q Or any operational weight? 

10 A It did not. 

11 Q How about center of gravity? 

12 A The center of gravity, as 

13 calculated by the flight crew was located at 

14 22.52 percent mean aerodynamic chord. And the 

15 additional 210 pounds would have shifted the 

16 center of gravity location to a point 23.12 

17 percent mean aerodynamic chord. Again, a 

18 very, very small shift within the envelope. 

19 Q But it stilled stayed within the 

20 envelope. 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q Would this have had any effect on 

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1 the safety of the flight? 

2 A No, sir. 

3 Q Turn to page 13, please. This 

4 page of your report analyzes the flight that 

5 occurred on May 5, 2011, Flight 1160, a CRJ6 700 from Houston to Colorado Springs. In this 

7 case, the FAA reports that 35 standard bags 

8 were present in the cargo compartment, while 

9 the CLR indicates 23 standard and zero heavy 

10 bags were present in the aft cargo 

11 compartment. 

12 Did you have the opportunity 

13 analyze this flight? 

14 A Yes, I did. 

15 Q What did you find a sit pertained 

16 to the takeoff weight? 

17 A One moment, please. Let me read 

18 this. 

19 Q Go ahead. 

20 A The observed configuration would 

21 have resulted in an additional 360 pounds over 

22 what was indicated on the cargo load report. 

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1 Q Now, the aircraft had about 5400 

2 pounds of play, right 

3 A Correct. 

4 Q below its maximum takeoff 

5 weight. So, adding 360 pounds when it had 

6 5400 additional there, what impact would that 

7 have? 

8 A A very small impact. Negligible, 

9 I would think. 

10 Q It is still well below the takeoff 

11 weight? 

12 A Yes, sir. 

13 Q How about center of gravity? How 

14 would the additional 360 pounds have moved the 

15 CG? 

16 A It would have moved the CG 

17 approximately one percent, which, again, 

18 within the size of that envelope is a very 

19 small change in CG. 

20 Q In your opinion, did this change, 

21 if it existed, have any effect on the safety 

22 of the flight? 

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1 A No, it did not. 

2 Q Turn the page now to page 14, 

3 please. This is a flight operated on June 2, 

4 2011, Flight 5840 from Chicago to -- help m. 

5 A From Houston. 

6 Q From Houston to CLT? 

7 A CLT, I believe that is Charlotte. 

8 But that is going from memory. I haven't 

9 operated in this airport. 

10 Q Well, obviously, I am not a pilot 

11 of the aircraft. Some of these I know well 

12 and some of them I don't. 

13 But the tail number was N937SW. 

14 And the FAA reported that 27 standard and 20 

15 plane side valet bags were present in cargo 

16 compartment, while the CLR indicated that 19 

17 standard and 15 plane side valet bags were 

18 present in the aft cargo compartment. The 

19 result would have been an additional 390 

20 pounds in the cargo compartment that was not 

21 indicated in the CLR. 

22 Did you analyze this flight? 

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1 A Yes, I did. 

2 Q What did you find, as it pertained 

3 to takeoff weight? 

4 A I found that the additional 390 

5 pounds would have not exceeded the maximum 

6 takeoff weight for this runway, nor would it 

7 have exceeded the manufacturer's maximum 

8 takeoff weights. 

9 Q The aircraft was about 3,000 

10 pounds below the maximum takeoff weight as 

11 calculated by the flight crew. Is that 

12 correct? 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q So adding another 390 pounds still 

15 leaves you with what, 2,600 or so --

16 A That is correct. 

17 Q -- of flight? 

18 How does it move the center of 

19 gravity? 

20 A The center of gravity would have 

21 moved approximately one and one-half percent 

22 aft or towards of the envelope. 

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1 Again, this would have been a very 

2 small change for that flight crew. 

3 Q The airplane was still in balance? 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q And within the envelope as 

6 prescribed by the manufacturer? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q Do you feel that the additional 

9 390 pounds jeopardized the safety of the 

10 flight in any regard for Flight 5840? 

11 A I do not. 

12 Q Turn to page 15, please, of your 

13 report. This is a flight that was operated on 

14 June 15, 2011, Flight 4781. The aircraft tail 

15 number was N603SK. This is the CRJ-700 

16 operated between Salt Lake and Reno. The FAA 

17 reports that 190 of COMAT were present in the 

18 cargo compartment when the CLR indicates that 

19 160 pounds of COMAT were present ln the 

20 compartment, a discrepancy of 30 pounds. 

21 Did you have the opportunity to 

22 analyze this flight? 

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1 A Yes, I did. 

2 Q The additional 30 pounds, what 

3 kind of impact did that have on the maximum 

4 takeoff weight? 

5 A The flight crew calculated takeoff 

6 weight for this flight was 11,600 pounds below 

7 the maximum for that runway. So, an 

8 additional 30 pounds would have been a very 

9 small change. 

10 Q It still had 11,000 pounds of 

11 play. 

12 A Correct. 

13 Q Plus additional holdover fuel and 

14 all the other factors that you have spoken 

15 about earlier. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q How about the center of gravity? 

18 Would it move that at all? 

19 A Yes, mathematically it would have 

2 0 moved it a point to one percent of mean 

21 aerodynamic chord, which is a very small shift 

22 but, mathematically it does exist. 

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1 Q Minuscule. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did it still remain within the 

4 center of gravity envelope? 

5 A Yes, it did. 

6 Q Adding an additional 30 pounds to 

7 this flight, does it impact or did it impact 

8 safety in any regard in any operation of this 

9 flight? 

10 A No, sir. 

11 Q Turn the page to 16. And this was 

12 Flight 1160 operated on July 14, 2011, tail 

13 number N742SK, a 700 type RJ from Houston to 

14 Colorado Springs. The FAA reports that 43 

15 standard bags were present in the cargo 

16 compartment but the CLR indicates that 36 

17 standard bags were present. The result would 

18 have been an additional 210 pounds in the aft 

19 cargo compartment. 

20 How would an additional 210 pounds 

21 have impacted the maximum takeoff weight for 

22 this aircraft? 

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1 A The additional 210 pounds would 

2 not have affected the maximum takeoff weight. 

3 The actual gross weight would have still been 

4 well below the maximum takeoff weight of just 

5 over 73,000 pounds. 

6 Q Even adding those 210 pounds on 

7 the aircraft, it was 4,000 pounds, at least, 

8 below the maximum takeoff weight? 

9 A Correct. 

10 Q How about the center of gravity? 

11 How as that impacted by having an additional 

12 201 pounds? 

13 A The center of gravity would have 

14 shifted from approximately one-half of one 

15 percent mean aerodynamic chord, which would 

16 have still been well within the manufacturer's 

17 envelope and been a very small change for the 

18 flight crew. 

19 Q And we're talking about moving 

20 that CG around more or less than an inch or 

21 less? 

22 A That again, I have to calculate 

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1 mathematically. I would say no more than 

2 perhaps the width of a pencil dot on the 

3 chart. 

4 Q Turn with me, if you would, 

5 to Flight 5449. That is on page 17. It is a 

6 flight that was operated on November 16, 2011, 

7 tail number N23S -- 236SW. 

8 This was a Brasilia EMB-120 

9 between Denver and Rock Springs, Wyoming? 

10 A I believe so. 

11 Q RKS -- Denver to RKS. I believe 

12 that is Rock Springs. 

13 The FAA reports that one heavy bag 

14 was present in the cargo compartment while 

15 zero heavy bags were accounted for on the CLR. 

16 What is the weight discrepancy, 

17 then, with this flight, Mr. Salamone? 

18 A The weight discrepancy would have 

19 been either a 30 or 60 pound, based on whether 

20 or not that observed heavy bag had been 

21 included in the standard bag count or not 

22 included at all. 

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1 Q How did this affect the maximum 

2 gross takeoff weight? 

3 A Well, it would not have affected 

4 the maximum gross takeoff weight. It would 

5 have raised the actual gross takeoff weight by 

6 about 60 pounds. 

7 Q And by raising that actual takeoff 

8 weight, did it exceed the maximum tolerance as 

9 set forth by the manufacturer? 

10 A It did not. 

11 Q How about the center of gravity? 

12 Did it move outside the acceptable envelope? 

13 A No, it did not. The center of 

14 gravity shift would have been a one-inch 

15 shift, which is a different unit than we 

16 referenced with the other Canadair flights and 

17 that's because this was a Brasilia. 

18 Q You just use different metrics? 

19 A Correct. The Brasilia does not 

20 utilize an electronic weight and balance. So, 

21 my method of analyzing this flight was 

22 slightly different. 

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1 Q Do you believe the addition of 

2 either 30 or 60 pounds in fact impacted the 

3 safety of the flight on this operation? 

4 A I do not believe it would have 

5 affected the safety of the flight. 

6 Q The remaining part of your report 

7 are a couple of figures. Figure 1 --we have 

8 walked through Figure 2. Would you tell us 

9 what Figure 1 is? 

10 A Yes, Figure 1 is the manufacturer 

11 weight and balance envelope for 900 series 

12 Canadair Regional Jet. It is very similar in 

13 form and in use to the CRJ-700 that we 

14 referred to earlier. 

15 Q So, the weight is listed in the 

16 left-hand column? 

17 A The weight in the left-hand column 

18 is presented in kilograms. The weight in 

19 pounds, as our units, is on the right-hand 

20 side of this chart. 

21 Q And the MAC is along the bottom? 

22 A The MAC is on the bottom for this 

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1 chart, whereas it was on the top. However, it 

2 is still a plotted item of weight in pounds as 

3 our calculation and center of gravity location 

4 percent mean aerodynamic chord. 

5 Q So, if you go to page 8, you 

6 calculated the CG for Flight 4464 by using 

7 Figure 1. Is that correct? 

8 A That is correct. 

9 Q Would you plot the CG, then, for 

10 Flight 4464? Just walk us through how you 

11 found that in this envelope. 

12 A Yes, verbally? 

13 Q Yes. 

14 A The flight crew calculated takeoff 

15 weight for this flight was 71,420 pounds. The 

16 observed takeoff weight would have been with 

17 a 120 pound additional weight. That is a 

18 worst-case scenario weight based on the 

19 unknown piece count. 

20 So, if the worst-case scenario 

21 would have been also right around 71,500 

22 pounds and the CG location, both the 

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1 calculated by the flight crew and observed by 

2 the inspector, would have been between 20.55 

3 and 20.97 percent. 

4 And again, this 20.97 is reference 

5 to the 120 pounds. That's the worst-case 

6 scenario. The report indicates 20.76, which 

7 is, in my opinion, more than likely what 

8 happened. And that is that the bags were 

9 counted in the standard piece count, rather 

10 than not having been accounted for at all. 

11 So, in any event, we are really 

12 looking at around a 75,000 pound plot -- I'm 

13 sorry-- 71,500 pounds and a 21 percent mean 

14 aerodynamic chord. 

15 If we look on the right-hand side 

16 of Figure 2 -- correction, Figure 1 on page 

17 18, 71,500. You will see it as a small tick 

18 mark and will move left to the point where 

19 that intersects with 21 percent mean 

20 aerodynamic chord. And I find that that 

21 intersection is right in the middle of this 

22 weight and balance envelope. 

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1 And the observed configuration by 

2 the inspector, it really would have been a 

3 minimal, almost not plot table on the scale of 

4 this chart. 

5 Q Again, maybe the point within your 

6 pencil, you mechanical pencil, the difference 

7 was well within the envelope. 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q And turn to Figure 3, please. 

10 What is Figure 3? 

11 A Figure 3 is a weight and balance 

12 envelope for the 200 series Canadair Regional 

13 Jet. 

14 Q Did you use Figure 3 to plot the 

15 center of gravity for Flight 6756, which 

16 appears on page 9 of your report? 

17 A Yes, sir, I did. 

18 Q Would you verbally walk us 

19 through, again, how you would plot using 

2 0 Figure 3, the center of gravity, both as 

21 perceived by the flight crew and observed by 

22 the FAA inspector? 

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1 A Yes. The flight crew calculated 

2 gross takeoff weight for this flight was 

3 50,080 pounds. 

4 The observed configuration from 

5 the inspector, in my opinion, more than likely 

6 would have been an additional 30 pounds, in 

7 that that heavy bag would have been counted as 

8 a standard bag. 

9 The 3 0 pounds would have increased 

10 the weight to 50, 110 and caused an eleven 

11 hundredths of a percent change in mean 

12 aerodynamic chord. 

13 Plotting that on Figure 3, a 

14 50,000 pound line with approximately a 12 

15 percent mean aerodynamic chord would have 

16 placed the center of gravity for this flight 

17 in the upper left-hand corner of the weight 

18 and balance envelope and been still well 

19 within the manufacturer's plots. 

20 Q And as observed by the FAA 

21 inspector, how would that change the plot on 

22 this chart? 

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1 A It would have changed it. I guess 

2 the best way to say it is, move the plot up by 

3 30 pounds and over to the right, or aft, by 

4 eleven one-hundredths of a percent. 

5 Q Would the dot then appear very 

6 near to your original plotted dot? 

7 A I think so. In this particular 

8 chart, yes. 

9 Q Almost touching each other? 

10 A Correct. 

11 Q Mr. Salamone, would you turn to 

12 Figure 4, please, in your report? 

13 A Yes, sir. 

14 Q Can you identify that? 

15 A This is a manual load manifest 

16 form for Flight 5449. 

17 Q Why did you use this chart instead 

18 of the other charts used previously? 

19 A The Embraer 120 aircraft would not 

20 does utilize electronic weight and balance. 

21 And this is the approved method, the FAA 

22 approved method, for computing weight and 

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1 balance for the EMB-120 aircraft. 

2 Q So, I see some red lines on this 

3 chart. Are those typically there? 

4 A No, they are not. The red lines 

5 on the weight and balance envelope is at the 

6 middle the bottom center of this chart. 

7 That is a plot that I have inserted 

8 graphically to depict where the loading 

9 configuration was for this flight because the 

10 crew calculated the loading configuration. 

11 Q And that plot falls within the 

12 envelope? 

13 A Yes, it does. 

14 Q What was the difference, then, 

15 between Figure 4 and Figure 5? 

16 A The difference between Figure 4 

17 and 5 is that Figure 4 is the crew-calculated 

18 loading configuration. The Figure 5 depicts 

19 the FAA-observed loading configuration. The 

20 notable change being that the FAA observed 

21 loading configuration has 840 pounds of cargo. 

22 The crew calculated configuration has 810 

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1 pounds of cargo. 

2 Q So, in both Figure 4 and Figure 5, 

3 the intersect falls within the aft galley 

4 weight and the CG envelope. 

5 A That is correct. 

6 Q You work in SkyWest's Special 

7 Projects Division and you also have a degree 

8 in human factors. What human factors are 

9 involved in loading an airplane and counting 

10 bags? 

11 A I think that the most difficult 

12 aspect of aircraft loading and baggage 

13 handling has to do with the environment around 

14 which it is centered. The ramp environment it 

15 may have temperature swings, it may have noise 

16 and vibration. It could have light, darkness 

17 issues, as well a flurry of activity making 

18 focus difficult for that particular employee. 

19 Q Interruptions? 

20 A Correct? 

21 Q Are there interruptions on the 

22 ramp? 

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1 A There may be. It is a very active 

2 area that could cause, perhaps, a pause in 

3 counting or bags arriving at different times 

4 from different connecting flights. 

5 Q Humans are involved in this 

6 operation. Is that true? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q What challenges does that bring to 

9 the project when you have humans involved in 

10 the counting and loading of the bags? 

11 A Well, I think that humans are 

12 inherently they have a difficult time 

13 inherently with counting, and when you throw 

14 in some difficult environmental factors, it 

15 makes that task even more difficult. And it 

16 is really the effects of the environment on 

17 human performance that could have negative 

18 implications. 

19 Q Are you surprised as you went 

20 through these calculations to see 

21 discrepancies from time to time when humans 

22 are loading aircraft? 

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1 A No, I'm not. 

2 Q Being off by a bag or two? 

3 A That, to me, with the complexity 

4 of this operation and the complexity of 

5 accounting for the bags that's, I guess from 

6 a human performance perspective, not entirely 

7 surprising. 

8 Q Do you believe it is reasonable to 

9 expect perfection in this environment with 

10 humans involved that we should be able, every 

11 single time to count and perfectly load bags? 

12 A I think that is reasonable to 

13 strive for perfection but unreasonable to 

14 expect perfection with the sheer volume of 

15 bags that is handled by SkyWest Airlines. 

16 MR. EMERSON: Thank you. No 

17 further questions. 

18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

19 BY MR. HARPER: 

20 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Salamone. 

21 A Good afternoon. 

22 Q I understand that you will be 

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1 leaving SkyWest to take a new position at 

2 Delta Airlines. Congratulations on that. I 

3 assume that that's a bit of a big career move 

4 for you. 

5 A Thank you, sir. It is an 

6 opportunity. 

7 Q Sir, Mr. Salamone, you have been 

8 testifying here as an expert in the field of 

9 aircraft weight and balance. I would like to 

10 talk to you about weight and balance in a more 

11 general sense, if that is alright with you. 

12 A Yes, sir. 

13 Q On your direct examination, you 

14 testified that among the things that you took 

15 into consider in doing your calculation and 

16 performing your -- on these instances of these 

17 flights was runway length, environment, and 

18 environmental factors. Is that correct? 

19 A That is correct. 

20 Q Would you agree, then, that the 

21 reason why you took runway length into account 

22 is that all else being equal, those 

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1 environmental factors you spoke of, that a 

2 heavier aircraft requires a longer distance to 

3 takeoff on? 

4 A Yes, that is correct. 

5 Q All things being equal, a heavier 

6 aircraft needs to reach a higher speed to 

7 become airborne. 

8 A That is also correct. 

9 Q A heavier aircraft has a lower 

10 rate of climb. 

11 A That is correct. 

12 Q A lower angle of climb. 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q A lower service ceiling? 

15 A Also correct. 

16 Q A slower cruising speed. 

17 A The cruising speed for all else 

18 being equal, yes. However, it is more than 

19 likely that a slightly heavier aircraft would 

20 have had the additional thrust to maintain the 

21 planned cruising speed. But with the same 

22 thrust, yes, it would have a slightly lower 

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1 cruising speed. 

2 Q Sir, to reset navigational thrust 

3 required to maintain the same cruising speed, 

4 that would involve higher fuel burn. Correct? 

5 A Yes, that is correct. 

6 Q And as a result, the aircraft 

7 would have a shorter range. 

8 A Yes, that is correct. 

9 Q Now, at the other end of the 

10 flight, all things being equal, a heavier 

11 aircraft requires a higher landing speed. 

12 A Also correct. 

13 Q And as a result, a longer landing 

14 roll. 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q You would agree that one of the 

17 reasons we calculate the aircraft weight an 

18 balance is to ensure that the center of 

19 gravity remains within the forward and aft 

20 limits. Correct? 

21 A Yes, I would agree. 

22 Q And then the center of gravity aft 

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1 of the aft would pose an issue. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And that is because a center of 

4 gravity aft of the aft would result in an 

5 increased risk of stalling the aircraft. 

6 A The center of gravity location 

7 exceeding the aft limitation, it could have 

8 numerous effects on the performance of flight. 

9 Stall recovery would be one of them. 

10 Q And not just stall recovery but my 

11 question was an increased risk of the stall 

12 occurring in the first place. 

13 A That I don't necessarily believe 

14 would be the case, provided that the flight 

15 crew maintained the air speed. 

16 Again, this is what we are talking 

17 now about an area that is outside the 

18 manufacturer's design and approved envelope. 

19 So, I am really not the person that would need 

20 to be contacted regarding flight operations 

21 outside of the manufacturer's envelope. That, 

22 you would need a test engineer of some type. 

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1 Q But you would agree that should a 

2 stall occur, that you would have a reduced 

3 ability to recover from the stall? 

4 A It is a likely scenario. But 

5 again, this is now speaking outside of the 

6 confines of the approved operations. 

7 Q Okay. Generally speaking at the 

8 other end of the center of gravity spectrum, 

9 a center of gravity forward of the forward 

10 limit could make it more difficult to rotate 

11 the aircraft. 

12 A Yes, that is correct. Again, with 

13 the caveat that we are now talking about 

14 operations outside the envelope. And I am 

15 probably not, I don't feel, an expert in that 

16 area and that you would need a Canadair 

17 engineer. 

18 Q Okay. So, if it is more difficult 

19 to rotate the aircraft, you would require a 

20 higher speed to become airborne. 

21 A The aerodynamics of the forward 

22 center of gravity would be more than likely 

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l result in an increased takeoff roll, due to 

2 drag factors. However, the air speed itself, 

3 I believe, would be the same, regardless of 

4 that center of gravity location or very, very 

5 close to it. 

6 The primary factor in air speed 

7 required for takeoff is the weight of the 

8 aircraft. 

9 Q Fair enough. 

10 All right. If I am not mistaken, 

ll you testified on direct that you have flown 

12 approximately 3, 000 flights for SkyWest 

13 Airlines. Am I remembering that accurately? 

14 A That would be my approximation. 

15 My logbook reflects somewhere around 3200 

16 hours in Canadair Regional Jets. And purely 

17 from memory, I believe the average day's 

18 length is an hour or slightly thereabouts. 

19 So, it might be slightly less than 3, 000 

20 flights but again, an approximation. 

21 Q As a pilot on those flights, you 

22 yourself are not on the ramp helping load the 

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1 cargo, are you? 

2 A No, sir. 

3 Q Generally speaking, the pilots, 

4 not just in your experience but as a general 

5 rule, pilots aren't on the ramp helping load 

6 cargo in SkyWest's day-to-day operations. 

7 A That is correct. 

8 Q Now, as a pilot, when you are 

9 doing the weight and balance calculation, one 

10 of the things -- for SkyWest Airlines under 

11 this program, one of the things you base the 

12 weight and balance calculation on is the cargo 

13 load report. Is that correct? 

14 A That is one of the things for 

15 which the weight and balance is calculated, 

16 yes. 

17 Q So, it is not necessarily the sole 

18 source of information? 

19 A No, sir. 

20 Q However, that cargo load report is 

21 one of the sources of information used to 

22 generate the load manifest. Is that correct? 

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1 A That is correct. 

2 Q And the load manifest is, for lack 

3 of a better term, that is sort of at the 

4 ending point of the weight and balance 

5 calculation. 

6 A Yes, the load manifest is the 

7 document that will contain the aircraft gross 

8 weight and center of gravity location, which 

9 is then used to determine performance 

10 requirements. 

11 Q So, the load manifest takes into 

12 account all of the factors that go into 

13 calculating the weight and balance of the 

14 aircraft? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q And in performing your 

17 calculations for these 14 specific flights, 

18 you based those calculations, in part, on the 

19 cargo load report. 

20 A Yes, sir. 

21 Q And in the case of the FAA 

22 observed state of the aircraft, you modified 

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1 that CLR based on the ASI's observations? 

2 A That is correct. 

3 Q In performing your calculations, 

4 you did not rely on any information from any 

5 other SkyWest personnel? 

6 A No, sir. The only other 

7 information that I relied on was the 

8 electronic load manifest, as it is recorded, 

9 and any other information that might have been 

10 contained about that flight. 

11 Q You would agree that the safe 

12 operation of an aircraft requires that the 

13 weight and balance of the aircraft be within 

14 the operating limitations? 

15 A Yes, I would agree with that. 

16 Q As specified by the manufacturer 

17 in the aircraft flight manual or weight and 

18 balance manual as may be applicable. 

19 A Yes, I would agree with that. 

2 0 Q And you would agree, as a pilot, 

21 that it is important to know the weight and 

22 balance of the aircraft is within those 

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1 operating limitations before you take takeoff 

2 the aircraft? 

3 A Yes, I would agree with that. 

4 MR. HARPER: And if you give me 

5 just a second here -- Mr. Salamone, I believe 

6 that is all the questions I have for you. 

7 Mr. Emerson? 

8 MR. EMERSON: Yes, a little 

9 redirect. 

10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. EMERSON: 

12 Q Mr. Salamone, on the CLRs that the 

13 flight crew ends up with, if you were to 

14 receive a late arriving bag or, say a 

15 passenger couldn't stuff it in the overhead 

16 bin and a bag comes off and it goes in the 

17 tail, is the flight crew required to include 

18 that change ln weight in its flight 

19 calculations? 

20 A Yes, it is. 

21 Q What is the crew required by 

22 SkyWest standard operating procedure to amend 

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1 the CLR and changes its copy? 

2 A The flight crew is required to 

3 amend the flight crew copy of the CLR. The 

4 station would be required to amend their copy 

5 of the CLR. 

6 Q So, if the ASI looks at the CLR as 

7 he or she received it from the flight crew, 

8 and then fount is was off by a bag or two, it 

9 is possible that the flight crew was aware of 

10 that bag, added it to its calculations, and 

11 operated accordingly but did not amend the CLR 

12 that it was carrying. 

13 A That is correct. 

14 MR. EMERSON: No further 

15 questions. 

16 MR. HARPER: Mr. Emerson, if you 

17 don't mind, I just have one or two questions 

18 to follow up on that. 

19 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. HARPER: 

21 Q I understand, Mr. Salamone, from 

22 your testimony that the CLR that is carried by 

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1 the flight crew will not reflect the change; 

2 however, the load manifest should reflect that 

3 change. Correct? 

4 A Yes, sir, that is correct. 

5 MR. HARPER: Thank you. That is 

6 all I have. 

7 (Whereupon, the video deposition 

8 was concluded.) 

9 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED 

10 TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBITS R-3-1, 

11 THROUGH R-3-3 WERE MARKED FOR 

12 IDENTIFICATION.) 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, at this 

14 time we ask that Exhibits R-3-1, -2, and -3 be 

15 received. 

16 MR. HARPER: No objection, Your 

17 Honor. I do note that the video deleted about 

18 three paragraphs of the testimony but it is 

19 accurately reflected in the transcript. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, so the 

21 transcript is accurate? 

22 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. 

2 Mr. Harper, you can relate to 

3 this. As they are going through these 

4 calculations, I can still envision the fully 

5 loaded, fully fueled A-10 taking off from KKMC 

6 in 120 degree temperature and I watched it 

7 slowly climb as it went over the horizon. I 

8 swear it never go over 30 feet above the 

9 ground. It had to because it was dumping its 

10 load. 

11 I would love to know what the 

12 calculations were for that aircraft. 

13 It is 20 minutes after three. 

14 Let's take a ten-minute break and then we will 

15 come back on and I am at your pleasure 

16 counsel. 

17 Thank you. We will go off the 

18 record. 

19 (Whereupon, the foregoing hearing 

20 went off the record at 3:20p.m. 

21 and went back on the record at 

22 3:34p.m.) 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, we are back 

2 on the record. The deposition referred to 

3 Deposition Exhibit 1. The exhibit is actually 

4 SkyWest Airlines Weight and Balance Analysis. 

5 That is Deposition Exhibit 1. But in the 

6 Court's records, that is actually Respondent's 

7 3-2. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: That is correct, 

9 Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I just want 

11 to make sure the record is clear. 

12 Mr. Dworkin? 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Are Exhibits R-3-1, 

14 -2, -3 received? 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me find my --

16 (Pause.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Respondent's 

18 3-1 is the typed -- what do they call that, 

19 Troy, the mini print? 

20 COURT REPORTER: Min-D-Script? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, miniprint. 

22 Respondent's 3-1 is the miniprint 

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1 of the deposition taken May 6, 2014. Mr. 

2 Harper, you didn't have any objection, did 

3 you, to that? 

4 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 3-2 

6 is SkyWest Airlines weight and balance 

7 analysis. My recollection is the FAA didn't 

8 have an objection. 

9 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Respondent's 

11 3-3 is a CD of the actual videotape. And Mr. 

12 Harper, you pointed out that the -- was it 

13 that the video was missing? 

14 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. The 

15 video is missing a portion from 42 of the 

16 transcript, roughly lines 5 to 25 or so. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay but it is in 

18 the typed version? 

19 MR. HARPER: Yes, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So one way 

21 or the other, we will get it in. 

22 So, Respondents 1, 2 and 3 for 

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1 identification are received in evidence as 

2 Respondent's 3-1, -2, and -3. 

3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

4 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENI' 

5 EXHIBITS 3-1 THROUGH 3-3 WERE 

6 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I would then ask 

8 Mr. Emerson if he would be kind enough to 

9 provide the court reporter, myself, and Mr. 

10 Harper a digital copy in both PDF and some 

11 sort of Word. It is not Word it is like --

12 what is it ASCII or something like that is the 

13 format? Do you know what I am talking about? 

14 COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, a 

15 Word document is a Word document. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, okay. I use 

17 -- I just finished a hearing in Chicago and 

18 the court reporter used -- wait a second. 

19 Well, so much for that theory. 

20 Well anyway, some sort of word 

21 format. Okay, what they used in the Chicago 

22 case was an ASCII. I don't care, as long as 

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1 it is some sort of a Word format. 

2 MR. EMERSON: We will do it, Your 

3 Honor. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

5 Mr. Dworkin? 

6 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, Your Honor. I 

7 would like to call Mr. Chris Brown. 

8 Whereupon, 

9 CHRISTOPHER C. BROWN 

10 was called as a witness by the Respondent, and 

11 having been first duly sworn, assumed the 

12 witness stand and was examined and testified 

13 as follows: 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

15 State your full name for the 

16 record and spell your first and last name. 

17 THE WITNESS: Christopher C. 

18 Brown, C-H-R-I-S-T-0-P-H-E-R, last name Brown, 

19 B-R-0-W-N. 

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

21 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

22 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Brown. 

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1 A Good afternoon. 

2 Q What is your occupation? 

3 A I am currently the Director of 

4 Aircraft Operations for SkyWest Airlines. 

5 Q And as Director of Aircraft 

6 Operations, what are your principle duties and 

7 responsibilities? 

8 A My principle duties include 

9 oversight, flight standards, fleet management, 

10 and program development, process development, 

11 manuals, such as weight and balance, ground 

12 deicing program, flight operations manual, 

13 standard operations procedures, and such. 

14 Q How long have you had that 

15 position? 

16 A In this position, about three 

17 years. 

18 Q And what was your prior position? 

19 A Prior to that, I was a Director of 

20 Flight Operations with the exact same duties. 

21 The airline just grew. We expanded and split 

22 the duties. 

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1 Q And how long were you Director of 

2 Flight Operations? 

3 A About two years. 

4 Q So were you the Director of Flight 

5 Operations when these cases arose? 

6 A I have been in this position for 

7 about three years. 

8 Q So, it was probably when you were 

9 making the transition? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q Okay. And how long have you been 

12 with SkyWest? 

13 A About ten years. 

14 Q What was your initial employment 

15 with SkyWest? 

16 A It was as a pilot an EMB-120 

17 pilot. I then transitioned --I'm sorry. I 

18 was promoted to the Denver Chief Pilot and 

19 then went to Saint George as the Manager of 

2 0 Flight Operations, then the Director of Flight 

21 Operations, and then my current position. 

22 Q Okay, so I assume that you are a 

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1 pilot. 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q What certificates and ratings do 

4 you have? 

5 A I have an -- I am also an AMP, so 

6 I have an AMP certificate. I have an airline 

7 transport certificate with the CL-65. I have 

8 a flight instructor certificate, an advanced 

9 flight instructor or an advanced ground 

10 instructor certificate. 

11 Q And how long have you been in the 

12 aviation business or the aviation activity? 

13 A About 3 0 years. I did 2 0 years in 

14 the Air Force as an aviation mechanic, mostly. 

15 And then the last ten years with SkyWest. 

16 Q And as Director of Flight 

17 Operations and Director of Aircraft 

18 Operations, have you been involved in the 

19 issues which are the subject of today's 

20 hearing? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q What was your involvement? 

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1 A I have been involved with looking 

2 at our processes to reduce risk associated 

3 with loading the airplanes accurately. I have 

4 worked very closely with our Customer Service 

5 Department and interfacing our processes for 

6 the time the paperwork leaves the customer 

7 service's hands to when it is received by the 

8 pilots to help close gaps and reduce risk or 

9 mitigate risk in those net process. 

10 Q And in connection with your 

11 position as director of flight operations and 

12 director of Aircraft Operations and the issues 

13 that confront us in today' s hearing, have you 

14 had occasions to communicate with the FAA and 

15 specifically with the FAA Certificate 

16 Management Office at Salt Lake City? 

17 A Absolutely. I think we have got a 

18 very open, honest, and professional 

19 relationship. So, we have been very 

20 transparent in our communication back and 

21 forth. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

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1 Honor? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

3 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

4 Q Mr. Brown, I am going to give you 

5 copies of what has been marked as Exhibit R4 

6. and Exhibits R-5-1 through R-5-7. 

7 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED 

8 TO AS RESPONDENT EXHIBITS R-4 AND 

9 R-5-1 THROUGH R-5-7 WERE MARKED 

10 FOR IDENTIFICATION.) 

11 A Okay. 

12 Q Have you seen these documents 

13 before? 

14 A Yes, I have. 

15 Q Okay. Let's go to Exhibit R-5-1. 

16 A Okay. 

17 Q What is that? 

18 A This was a letter to the CMO, to 

19 Mr. Ayers, requesting consideration for a 

20 proposed amendment to the approved weight and 

21 balance program. Basically, that it would 

22 include the addition of human factors, 

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1 amendments to bring the proposal to a full 

2 cycle or full circle that encompasses the SMS 

3 practices and for it to enclose in the system, 

4 the Safety Management System. 

5 So, it is recognizing that human 

6 factors play a key role ln the proper 

7 completion and counting of bag proper 

8 completion of the CLR and counting of bags. 

9 And it offers a proposal. 

10 Would you like me to go to the 

11 proposal? 

12 Q Yes, please. 

13 A So, the proposal, essentially, was 

14 recognizing that there are errors out there. 

15 We are not making excuses for those errors. 

16 We are just accepting that there is risk in 

17 the environment that these ground agents are 

18 working in. That there is risk that they 

19 could miscount a bag or not put the right 

20 number on a cargo load report that, in turn, 

21 would lead to a load manifest that was in 

22 error. 

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1 And basically what it did, was it 

2 was asking -- it was applying a penalty, 

3 almost a prepaid penalty to us to compensate 

4 for those one, or two, or three miscounted 

5 bags that could potentially happen on the 

6 flight. That we would penalize our self up7 front so that if it happened, the airplane 

8 would not be heavier than it is capable of 

9 performing. 

10 Q So, basically what you would do is 

11 you would add some extra weight --

12 A Right. 

13 Q -- to the basic operating of the 

14 aircraft. 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q And as a result, lessen the 

17 payload. 

18 A That is correct. 

19 Q On your weight and balance program 

20 amendment proposal, on page two, could you 

21 read the third paragraph and the fourth 

22 paragraph the third paragraph beginning 

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1 with the SkyWest flight operations, comma, 

2 customer service? 

3 A SkyWest Flight Operations, 

4 Customer Service, and Safety Departments had 

5 made great strides in the construction and 

6 implementation of procedures designated to 

7 mitigate gross errors. However, the nature of 

8 human factors makes the elimination of errors 

9 in their entirety in a possible undertaking. 

10 In this request, SkyWest would 

11 like to plan proactively for small errors in 

12 cargo weight by implementing a self-imposed 

13 limitation on the capabilities of this 

14 aircraft. 

15 The purpose of this proposal is is 

16 not to allow for error but to account for the 

17 apparent limitations of human performance and 

18 ensure operational safety is held paramount at 

19 all times. 

20 Specifically, this request 

21 consists of artificially adding a specific 

22 amount of weight of the basic operating weight 

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1 of each aircraft. In doing so, the 

2 performance calculations will be performed as 

3 if the weight was physically onboard the 

4 aircraft, even though, in most cases, the 

5 weight would not be present -- would not be 

6 physically present. 

7 The aircraft operating envelope 

8 will be curtailed in such a way that for small 

9 miscounts, the SkyWest weight and balance 

10 program will assure that the aircraft will 

11 always remain within the manufacturer's 

12 operating envelope. 

13 Q And at the bottom of page two, you 

14 actually have listed the penalties for each 

15 aircraft type. Is that correct? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And what are those penalties? 

18 A For the EMB-120, it is one 

19 standard bag, 30 pounds; the CRJ-200, it is 

20 two standard bags or 60 pounds. For the CRJ21 700, it is three standard bags and 90 pounds 

22 and it is the same for the CRJ-900. 

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1 Q And could you go to page 6? Could 

2 you read that paragraph? 

3 A SkyWest elects to reiterate the 

4 purpose of the program is not to allow for 

5 error. It would, however, to ensure that 

6 operational safety is maintained in all small 

7 miscount situations caused by limitations of 

8 human performance. A similar program has 

9 already been put in place by Delta Airlines. 

10 The SkyWest philosophy has been 

11 and remains safety first. And with that in 

12 mind, it is our hope for a rapid consideration 

13 and approval of this request. 

14 Q Now, on page 8' you again 

15 mentioned the Delta Airlines tolerance. 

16 A On page 8? 

17 Q On page 8 of that exhibit. 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And in front of you is Exhibit R20 4. Could take a look at that? 

21 A Okay. 

22 Q When you referred to the Delta 

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1 Airlines procedure, is R-4 what you were 

2 referring to? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And that, basically, allows a 600-

5 pound tolerance. Is that correct? 

6 A That is correct. 

7 Q So that if the number of 

8 additional bags loaded is less than 20, there 

9 would be no change in what would be the Delta 

10 equivalent of a CLR. Is that correct? 

11 A That is correct, the WDR. That is 

12 where the note that -- they are not taking a 

13 penalty. They are allowing a miscount up to 

14 20 bags and not pre-penalizing the bough 

15 weight, is what we applied for. 

16 Q Okay. So, in other words, you 

17 were applying for something that is far more 

18 restrictive than what Delta has. 

19 A That 1 s right. 

20 Q Okay. Now, because it is ln 

21 Delta 1 s Flight Operations Manual, presumably, 

22 it is FAA approved. Correct? 

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1 A I don't know if their Flight 

2 Operations Manual is approved. I am certain 

3 it is FAA accepted. 

4 Q Okay. And you attached to your 

5 report a copy of the FAR on human factors 

6 policy. Is that correct? That is FAR 9558A? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And was it SkyWest's belief that 

9 these baggage miscounts were the result of the 

10 interplay of human factors? 

11 A Absolutely. 

12 Q Go to Exhibit R-5-2. 

13 A Okay. 

14 Q This is a letter dated March 4, 

15 2011. I trust this was a follow-up to your 

16 previous letter, R-5-1. Is that correct? 

17 A That is correct. 

18 Q What precipitated that letter? 

19 A If I remember correctly, we met 

2 0 with the CMO and reviewed the proposal. And 

21 this was, basically, a thank you letter. And 

22 also to reiterate, it is not an attempt to 

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1 subvert the regulation but rather to build 

2 another layer of safety. And by accepting 

3 this proposal, we would still be within the 

4 regulatory guidance of 121.693, in our 

5 opinion. 

6 Q And did the FAA formally respond 

7 to either the March 4, 2001 letter or the 

8 March 2, 2011 proposal? 

9 A Yes. This is -- I am looking at 

10 R-5-3, the May 17th letter. Yes, the CMO did. 

11 Q And what did they do? 

12 A The CMO basically said through 

13 collaboration with the FAA Northwest Mountain 

14 Regional Specialist and the FAA Headquarters 

15 Group, they have identified the following 

16 issue. And the issues, I am assuming with the 

17 proposal, which basically cited that even if 

18 we took these measures, these safety measures, 

19 we would still be producing a load manifest 

20 that would not comply with the Regulation 

21 121.693 because of the error. 

22 They also went on to say that the 

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1 current FAA guidance does not address the 

2 concept of baggage count or weight tolerances. 

3 And that latitude -- that is basically it. 

4 And then they made a comment about addressing 

5 the specific customer service ramp agent 

6 procedures. 

7 Q And that is Exhibit R-5-3, the FAA 

8 letter dated May 17, 2011. Is that correct? 

9 A That is correct. 

10 Q So, essentially, what the FAA was 

11 doing was declining to implement your 

12 proposal . 

13 A At that time, yes, sir. 

14 Q Was there some follow-up 

15 communication? 

16 A At some point in July 2012, July 

17 18th, I wrote back a letter. And I think 

18 there was some offline discussion between our 

19 leadership and SkyWest and the FAA leadership 

20 that precipitated this letter to basically 

21 reengage the FAA with this proposal. And that 

22 is what this letter did. It reengaged and 

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1 also attached the proposal again for further 

2 consideration. 

3 Q And is that Exhibit R-5-4, your 

4 letter dated July 18, 2012? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q And --

7 A Maybe I need to clarify a little 

8 bit more, too. The letter was actually two9 fold. One, requesting further consideration 

10 but also the FAA had, at some point, asked for 

11 some analysis to be done if we loaded an 

12 aircraft outside of the manufacturer's 

13 performance limitations. And we just simply 

14 don't have that data. You know, we would have 

15 to go to the manufacturer. But we have no way 

16 of producing a manifest or performance data 

17 outside of the normal operating conditions of 

18 the aircraft. So, we were unable to provide 

19 that information and we requested that the 

20 proposal be revisited. 

21 Q Okay, so to clarify things, 

22 SkyWest wasn't asking for FAA permission to 

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1 operate the aircraft outside of its 

2 performance limitations? 

3 A No, sir. The FAA had asked us for 

4 data what would it look like outside of the 

5 performance limitations of the aircraft. We 

6 simply don't have that. 

7 Q You don't have it. You don't do 

8 it, so you don't have the data. 

9 A Right. 

10 Q What is Exhibit R-5-5? It looks 

11 like an email from Tom Baird at FAA to you and 

12 to Mark Childress. And I apologize but the 

13 copy machine seems to have cut off the right 

14 margin of the document. 

15 A I think I could make heads or 

16 tails out of it. So, I think this was a 

17 second request, since we couldn't provide 

18 information outside of the aircraft envelope, 

19 this was, okay, a request on behalf of the 

20 Northwest Mountain Region, ANM-200 and 240, 

21 working with our CMO to actually look at 

22 worst-case within the enveloped scenarios. 

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1 So, the FAA gave us, basically, 

2 four scenarios. And they wanted us to 

3 basically produce a dispatch release and a 

4 passenger manifest. And they gave us 

5 scenarios along with that, such as max 

6 departure temperature, fuel from the first 

7 scenario, but now three extra heavy bags. And 

8 then baggage and fuel was the -- well, part of 

9 it is cut off there. I think it is second 

10 scenario and 2 0 heavy bags. And then finally, 

11 another scenario that was given. 

12 So, we produced the flight 

13 releases and the manifests for each one of 

14 those scenarios for the FAA. 

15 Q Okay and that was Exhibit R-6 --

16 R-5-6? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And it looks like that went to the 

19 FAA on July 30, 2013? 

20 A That looks about right. Yes, sir. 

21 Q And what, if any, response did 

22 that produce? 

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1 A I know I got a response. I don't 

2 see it here but there is a response from --

3 oh, here it is. I got a response from Tom 

4 Baird at the SkyWest CMOs, basically thanking 

5 us for the information. 

6 Q Okay, they thanked you for the 

7 information but, thus far, your proposal has 

8 not yet been approved. 

9 A So apparently, Rick Domingo at the 

10 FAA was taking our recommendation to the 

11 Advisory Circular Committee because apparently 

12 it was under review and they were going to 

13 make or try to support this case or this 

14 proposal. 

15 Q But it has not yet been approved. 

16 Is that right? 

17 A No, Slr. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: I will ask that 

19 Exhibit R-4, and R-5-1 through R-5-7 be 

20 received. 

21 MR. HARPER: Your Honor, I object 

22 to R-4 on relevance grounds. These were 

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1 SkyWest flights. This is a Delta document. 

2 It has no relevance to the operation of any of 

3 the flights at issue today. 

4 And R-5-5, I wouldn't object, 

5 except under the rule of completeness, since 

6 it is cut off. I think it would be in 

7 everybody's interest to have a complete copy 

8 of the document in the record, instead of a 

9 cut off version, if we could arrange for that. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: We will substitute a 

11 full version. 

12 MR. HARPER: In that case, I have 

13 no objection. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's do this. 

15 The Court is going to withhold-- Respondent's 

16 R-5-4 for identification will be received into 

17 evidence. It will go to weight, Mr. Harper, 

18 your objection. 

19 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

20 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

21 EXHIBIT R-5-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

22 EVIDENCE.) 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I am going to 

2 withhold ruling on 5-5 and allow you to 

3 substitute a copy that doesn't have the right 

4 side chopped off. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

7 Q Mr. Brown, were you present at the 

8 hearing this morning? 

9 A Yes, sir. 

10 Q And there was some testimony about 

11 a load manifest that was retrieved from the 

12 trash. 

13 A Yes, I remember. 

14 Q Okay. And does that have any 

15 significance for you, that testimony? 

16 A No, not really. If it was in the 

17 trash, that is probably where it belonged. It 

18 wasn't going to be used for that flight or it 

19 wouldn't be in the trash. 

20 The ACARS, when that information 

21 is sent off for takeoff information and it is 

22 retrieved, that load manifest, it is housed 

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1 electronically in the ACARS and it is carried 

2 electronically to the destination. 

3 A few crews will print that actual 

4 manifest because it has the V speeds or the 

5 takeoff information on it. They can print it, 

6 put it on the yoke and it is easy to 

7 reference. But there is multiple times, such 

8 as passenger movement or late bags that you 

9 might request two or three or four manifests 

10 before you have your final manifest. So, you 

11 could have several printed copies that have 

12 gone in the trash that are, to me, quite 

13 irrelevant. 

14 Q So, simply based upon the 

15 testimony that a load manifest was retrieved 

16 by the trash, as you sit here today, you don't 

17 know if that was the actual load manifest or 

18 if that was a document that was superseded by 

19 a later load manifest. Is that correct? 

20 A The only way you would know is to 

21 pull the 90-day manifest record from Saint 

22 George in that required database and compare 

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1 it, if you wanted to compare it and see if it 

2 was a legitimate manifest. But I would not 

3 consider a manifest a legitimate one if it was 

4 ln the trash. 

5 Q Because they are supposed to be 

6 retained for 90 days. Is that correct? 

7 A That's right. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: Okay, no further 

9 questions. Thank you. 

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

11 BY MR. HARPER: 

12 Q Mr. Brown, R-4 is an excerpt from 

13 the Delta Flight Operations Manual. This 

14 isn't the entire Flight Operations Manual, is 

15 it? 

16 A No, sir. 

17 Q It is not the entire Weight and 

18 Balance Manual for Delta. 

19 A No, sir. 

20 Q So, there may be other information 

21 in that manual that might be relevant to what 

22 has been offered for that we just don't know 

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1 about. 

2 A Certainly. 

3 Q Mr. Brown, you testified that you 

4 are a CFI. Have you taught any students? 

5 A About 1600 hours. 

6 Q Any student pilots working on 

7 training for a private pilot certificate? 

8 A Certainly. 

9 Q If you had a student pilot come to 

10 you and wanted to do a solo flight and he told 

11 you he hadn't calculated weight and balance 

12 for the flight, would you endorse that flight? 

13 A That he had not? 

14 Q That he had not done the weight 

15 and balance information for that flight. 

16 Would you endorse him to perform that flight? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Mr. Brown, could you describe to 

19 me an example of a violation that was not the 

20 result of a human error; a violation where 

21 humans had absolutely nothing to do with it, 

22 the violation just occurred? 

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1 MR. DWORKIN: Objection. It is 

2 vague, ambiguous, uncertain, and beyond the 

3 scope of the direct examination. 

4 MR. HARPER: Well, Your Honor, 

5 they have testified on direct that these 

6 violations are the result of human errors. I 

7 am just trying to find out are there any 

8 violations that are not the result of human 

9 error. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

11 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would say, 

12 that there could be a printer malfunction, as 

13 it is printing the flight release. I have 

14 even seen an aircraft where the PDC, the pre15 departure clearance that is printed off the 

16 ACARS printer and the ink is running low, type 

17 thing. And the zero looks like an 0. So, the 

18 flight crew is flying to a space or a point in 

19 space thinking they are on the right 

20 coordinates when they are not, until ATC 

21 queries them. And that was a printer 

22 malfunction. 

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1 The same thing could happen with a 

2 clearance. 

3 Q So, in that example, the pilots, 

4 in other words, made an error in flying to the 

5 wrong location, based on data they were 

6 provided on an unclear that they could have 

7 printed out another copy of, had they paid 

8 attention in the first place. 

9 A It certainly could just be old 

10 technology such as a dot matrix printer that 

11 we use all over the system. 

12 Q All right. Thank you very much, 

13 Mr. Brown. 

14 Now, you have testified regarding 

15 Respondents 1 through 7, which was the back 

16 and forth over SkyWest 's proposal to allow for 

17 an air tolerance increased the basic operating 

18 weight of the aircraft. Would you not agree 

19 that the fact that in 2012, the FAA requested 

20 additional information with some indication 

21 that the FAA is actually giving some serious 

22 thought to your proposal? 

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1 A I would agree, yes. 

2 Q However, that proposal has not 

3 been accepted and incorporated into SkyWest' s 

4 weight and balance program at this point in 

5 time. 

6 A That is right. 

7 Q And it was not part of SkyWest's 

8 weight and balance program at the time many of 

9 these flights took place. 

10 A That is right. 

11 MR. HARPER: No further questions. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

13 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect, Your 

14 Honor. We ask that the witness be excused. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I will 

16 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

17 with anybody prior to the conclusim of the 

18 hearing. You are excused. It is up to 

19 counsel whether you return to Respondent's 

20 table or are excused from the court. 

21 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. Thank you. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin? 

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325 

1 MR. DWORKIN: I would ask that 

2 Exhibits -- I guess they have already been 

3 received. Okay. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Exhibits R-4 and R6 5-1 through R-5-7, I guess, according to my 

7 notes, have been received but we are going to 

8 substitute R-5-5. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: R-4 is the Delta 

10 Flight Operations Manual. That is marked for 

11 identification but I don't recall that being 

12 offered at this point. 

13 MR. DWORKIN: Yes, I did offer it. 

14 MR. HARPER: And I object on 

15 relevancy grounds, since these are SkyWest 

16 flights at issue, not Delta flights. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, right. I 

18 understand. 

19 Respondent's 4 for identification 

20 will be received in evidence. It goes to 

21 weight. I am not sure what relevance it has 

22 but it certainly can have a weight. I think, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. NW 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
326 

1 in the context of the testimony it is 

2 admissible but not much beyond that. 

3 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

4 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENI 

5 EXHIBIT R-4 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

6 EVIDENCE.) 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's R-5-1 

8 for identification is a 26-page exhibit which 

9 appears to be a compilation of correspondence. 

10 I notice on the Court's copies that there are 

11 some areas that are gray and some that are 

12 not. The Court is going to ignore anything 

13 that is gray. I assume that is yellow 

14 highlighting but that doesn't influence the 

15 Court. 

16 Respondent's 5-l is the 26-page 

17 exhibit. The Court will admit that. 

18 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

19 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

20 EXHIBIT R-5-1 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

21 EVIDENCE.) 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-2 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
327 

1 for identification is a two-page letter March 

2 4, 2011 to Mr. Andrews over the signature of 

3 a Mr. Brown. That was offered. Is that 

4 correct, Mr. Dworkin? 

5 MR. DWORKIN: yes. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: And did you have 

7 an objection, Mr. Harper? 

8 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 5-2 for 

10 identification will be received into evidence 

11 as Respondent's 5-2. 

12 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

13 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

14 EXHIBIT R-5-2 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

15 EVIDENCE.) 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-3 

17 is a letter to Mr. Brown over the signature of 

18 Mr. Ayers dated May 17, 2011. That has been 

19 offered. Any objection to that, Mr. Harper? 

20 MR. HARPER: No, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: That will be 

22 received into evidence. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-4433 
328 

1 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT 

2 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

3 EXHIBIT R-5-3 WAS RECEIVED INTO 

4 EVIDENCE.) 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 5-4 

6 is dated July 18, 2012 to Mr. Ayers over the 

7 signature of Mr. Brown. Again, that will be 

8 received for the reasons stated. 

9 Respondent's 5-5, the court is 

10 going to withhold. And that is all the 

11 farther we have gotten. Is that correct, Mr. 

12 Dworkin? 

13 MR. DWORKIN: No, I have also 

14 offered 5-6 and 5-7. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, 5-6, I am 

16 still paginating. It is a thick exhibit. 

17 Respondent's 5-7 is an email from 

18 Mr. Baird to Mr. Brown dated August 8, 2012. 

19 Mr. Harper, do you have any objection to 

20 Respondent's 5-7? 

21 MR. HARPER: No objection to 

22 either R-5-6 orR-5-7. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
329 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 

2 Then, 5-7 for identification is 

3 received into evidence and 5-6 will be 

4 received into evidence. 

5 (WHEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS 

6 PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS RESPONDENT 

7 EXHIBIT R-5-6 AND R-5-7 WERE 

8 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: It appears I am 

10 just going to caption 5-6 as WD scenarios, 

11 which is the banner on the top of the first 

12 page. They have no relevance to contents but 

13 that is the way I am going to identify the 

14 exhibit. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. And 5-5 is 

16 conditionally received, pending 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, when you 

18 bring the original, then we will worry about 

19 it. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Very well, 

21 Your Honor. 

22 Since it is ten after four, I 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
330 

1 think this would probably be a logical break 

2 point. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then what 

4 we will do is we will go off the record for 

5 the evening. 

6 I am going to admonish all 

7 witnesses that they are again instructed not 

8 to discuss your testimony with anybody until 

9 the hearing is concluded. 

10 We will go off the record and we 

11 will reconvene again at 0900. 

12 (Whereupon, at 4:11 p.m., the 

13 foregoing hearing was adjourned to 

14 reconvene at 9:00a.m. on Tuesday, 

15 May 2 o, 2 o 14. ) 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
---

A 

$250 16:5 

$35,000 16:1,4 

A-10 294:5 

A-A-R-0-N 103:14 

A-D-A-M 38:22 

A-F-T-E-R-N-0-... 

179: I 

A-L-L-E-N20:9 

A-M-E-S 93:22 

A-N-D-R-E-W 

179:18 

A-Y-E-R-S 179:19 

a.m I: 13 7:2 38:5,7 

93:2,4 178:14 

227:10 330:14 

Aaron I 02:22 

103:5,13 

ability 11:13 

214:15 286:3 

able 101:6 241:8 

257:15 281:10 

aboard 42:7 43:7 

116:15 191:21 

absolutely 302:17 

310:11 321:21 

ACARS 122:12,14 

122:21 131:13 

132:15 134:4 

135:10 137:8 

139:6 140:21 

142:12 143:3 

149:8 157:14,15 

173:5 175:7,9,14 

318:20 319:1 

322:16 

A CARS-generated 

131:16 

ACAS 104:7 

accept 235:17 

acceptable 253:14 

257:5 258:22 

271:12 

accepted 310:3 

324:3 

accepting 304:16 

311:2 

access 54:2,5,7 135:10 187:1 adjusting243:13 

accident 189:21 197:2 200:2 203:2 adjustment 244:15 

190:18191:8,9 207:22 208:21 Administration 2:4 

192:2 209:6 218:10 7:10113:13168:6 

accidents 189:17 224:8 226:2 239:9 168:20 180:11 

accomplished 8: II 250:10 269:3 227:22 

account237:8,21 271 :5,7 296: II Administrative 

282:21289:12 319:3,17 I: 19 

306:16 Adam 38:11,13,21 admissible 326:2 

accounted 209:7 add 84:20 176:4 admit 326:17 

242:4 244:18 194:18 305:11 admitted 28:3 

253:1254:18 added 85:12 187:21 191:4,7 

258:7 259:14 292:10 192:19 195:5 

270:15 274:10 adding 242: I ,4 admonish 330:6 

accounting 281:5 244:19 259:11 admonishen 129:3 

accurate8:7 28:15 261:1 263:5 advanced 168:10 

45:8,21 51:21 265:14 268:6 231:4 301:8,9 

52:11 53:1 57:21 269:6 306:21 Advisory 316: II 

58:6 59:10 60:5 addition 147:22 aerodynamic 

60:20 64:14 65:7 272: I 303:22 248:15,22 249:3,7 

69:6,19 73:18 additionall82: 17 250:22 261:14,17 

92:14,17 98:14 242: I 244:17 267:21 269:15 

108:8 109:1 245:13,22 247:2 273:4 274:14,20 

124:17 133:9 253:12 254:8 276:12,15 

134:8 140:6 141:6 255:22 256:21 aerodynamics 

150:4 151:2 152:3 257:2 258:17,20 286:21 

155:14 156:6 259:7,19 260:15 affairs 12:6 

158:3 159:1 261:15 262:21 affect 190:18 

172:14173:6 263:6,14 264:19 245:16 271:1 

176:1 196:8,22 265:4 266:8 267:2 affixed 24: I 0 

243:2 251:5 252:4 267:8,13 268:6,18 106:19 148:16 

293:21 268:20 269: I, II 175:20 

accurately 66:3 273:17 276:6 aft24:17171:7 

99:10 109:13 283:20 309:8 189:12191:17 

173:21191:15 323:20 260:9,16,17 

214:15 250:19 additions 219:21 262:10 264:18 

287:13 293:19 220:1 265:22 268:18 

302:3 address 1 0:22 277:3 279:3 

acted 180:6 11:1912:8228:13 284:19,22 285:1,4 

acting 180:12 228:15 312:1 285:4,7 

215:7 addresses II :9 afternoon 8:14 

active 280: I 190:4 281:20,21 298:22 

activities 94:17 addressing 122:16 299:1 

activity 279:17 131:15,15 312:4 agel8:17 

301:12 adequate 241:6,7 Agency223:8 

actual4 7:9 81: I, 12 adjourned 330:13 agent 54:1 88:18 

82:11,18,20 88:12 adjusted 253:22 91:10312:5 

''"~,--

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 331 

agent's 89:9 

agents 13:12 90:17 

210:6,12 211:1 

304:17 

ago I 0:9 230:7 

agree216:9 217:12 

282:20 284:16,21 

286:1290:11,15 

290:19,20 291:3 

323:18 324:1 

Agreed 216:8 

ahead 137:15 

144:19 167:17 

191:1227:3 245:9 

262:19 

aid 185:4 

air 13:4,4 15:6 87:4 

87:5 104:4,6 

113:9,10 127:19 

128: I 130: I ,5 

132:6,8 139:6 

168:16 197:7 

238:1 285:15 

287:2,6 301:14 

323:17 

airborne 283:7 

286:20 

aircraft 13:1,3,5,19 

13:21 14:6,12,16 

14:18,20 15:3,7 

17:4,5 20:17,17 

24:2,19 26:4 

39:11 43:4,7,10 

43:16 47:1,9 

50:13 54:15,21 

55:3 62:20 67: I 0 

79:14,18 89:2,4,5 

101:15 105:14 

106:22 110:15 

111:10,13115:6 

119:21 120:19 

121:1122:15 

131:14148:20 

153:4,14,17 

163:21 164:11,18 

171:10173:20 

180:7 182:3,4,21 
183:10,18,19 

184:18185:12 

187:2188:17,19 

189:2,4,15,16 

190:5 191:10,18 

191:19 196:14 

200:3,12,19 203:2 

204:17 208:1,20 

209:10 212:18,20 

215:15 219:18 

220:21 231:2,16 

232:22 233:6 

234:14 235:2,9,11 

238:7,10,13,14 

239:10,17,20 

240:13 241:12,17 

242:6,10,20 244: I 

246:5,17,19,22 

248:10 251:10,15 

252:2,12 254:5 

255:13,15,22 

257:3,11260:19 

261:3,5 263:1 

264:11 265:9 

266:14 268:22 

269:7 277:19 

278:1 279:12 

280:22 282:9 

283 :2,6,9, 19 

284:6,11,17 285:5 

286:11,19 287:8 

289:7,14,22 

290:12,13,17,22 

291:2 294:12 

299:4,5 301:17 

302:12 305:14 

306:14 307:1,4,7 

307:10,15 313:12 

313:18 314:1,5,18 

322:14 323:18 

aircraft's 185:5 

246:1 257:16 

airframe 94:11 

146:2 

airline 20:16,22 

54:7 91:2 103:21 

104:10 145:19 

168:5,12 182:1,20 264:9 244:4 245:5 

183:5 231:1 airports 136:21 250:15 251:12 

299:21 301:6 137:2 252:19 254:13,14 

airlines 1 :5 2:14 Alaska 90:1 295:4 296:7 

7:5,12 22:7,18 alive 221:9 313:11 

36:13,20 39:10,13 allegations 16:2 analyze 252: 16 

39:14,17,20 41:18 alleged 16:3 214:5 254:10 256:10 

44:16 51:13 57:15 236:7 237:15 258:8 260:11 

58:3,4 60:4 63:18 244:10,15 245:12 262:13 264:22 

68:17 71:14 83:3 248:18,22 266:22 

87:14,17 89:18 Allen 3:4 15:10 analyzed 237:8 

90:794:1795:1,4 18:19 19:13 20:8 238:7 244:7,9 

I 04:3,4,5 I 05:4 20:9,13 27:16 245:10 259:17 

106:4 114:21 28:8 31:5,16 analyzes 262:4 

130:10,13 142:14 34:21 35:2,17 analyzing 2 71 :21 

146:14 154:13 36:4,10 37:12 Anderson 8:7 

157:14 158:19 Allen's25:15 Andrew77:15 78:5 

169:3 171:16 allow 191:14 215:3 78:12179:7,9,17 

173:5 180:5,8,10 216:14 220:15 184:17 

180:15,16,20 222: I 306:16 Andrews 327:2 

181:8 183:9 196:5 308:4 318:2 Angeles23:17,19 

227:11,19 228:4 323:16 25:12,18 26:5 

229:14 234:16 allowed 191:14 34:1,12 157:6 

281:15282:2 allowing 309:13 201:5 252:13 

287:13 288:10 allows 309:4 angle 283:12 

295:4 296:6 299:4 alright 282: II anima150:7 79:10 

308:9,15 309:1 altitude 1 89: 12 79:13,13,18,19,20 

airman 94:9 238:9 240:21 80:5,7,10,11,17 

145:20 168:7 241:8 242:22 81 :2,4,5,5, 7,9, 12 

181:21 243:18 81:16,20,21 82:12 

airplane 73:2 76:8 ambiguous 322:2 82:14,18,19 83:2 

82:15 88:6 111:6 amend32:14 83:14 84:6,9,11 

111:18170:21 291:22 292:3,4,11 90:12,18 220:21 

171:8 209:8 amended 32:13 221:1,8 252:1 

214:22 238:18 amendment 303:20 animal's 81:15 

239:22 240:9,11 305:20 animals 67:11 79:3 

241 :2,4 244:20 amendments 304:1 79:6 83:17,18,22 

246:8 250:20 amends 32:15 90:10,14,16 221:7 

251:2 266:3 279:9 AMERICAl:l 221:14,15,17,20 

305:7 amount24:12 222:3,10 251:9,14 

airplanes 87:7 115:5 127:11 251:21 

215:10,18 302:3 245:14 306:22 ANM-200 314:20 

airport 23: II 41:9 AMP301:5,6 answer 101 :4 

48:4 95:19 105:20 analogy 208: II 208:13,14 210:1 

105:21 131:5 analysis 230:14 210:18 219:15 

137:3 138:13 233:4 236:4 233:22 

169:21 170:4,8 237:10 241:12 anticipate 10:16 

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202-234-4433 

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anybody 11:10 

37:5 77:5 78:2 

92:2 I 02:17 112:4 

128:9 144:5 166:1 

176:17 177:10 

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anyway 297:20 

apologies 234:2 

apologize 126:5 

198:3 314:12 

apparent 306:17 

apparently 58:21 

144:10 316:9,11 

appeal16:6 

appear 84:18 207:1 

213:9 277:5 

appearances 2:1 

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appears 73:14 

163:8 212:10 

213:11214:6 

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329:9 

appellate 12:4 

Appliance 147:14 

applicable 183:17 

290:18 

applied 309:15 

applying 305:2 

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116:3118:16 

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appropriate 10:13 

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approvals 181:16 

approved 191:11 

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277:21,22 285:18 

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316:8,15 

approximately 

39:7 56:9,11 

137:15 180:8 

230:7 231:20,22 

233:16 260:19 

263:17 265:21 

269:14 276:14 

287:12 

approximation 

233: I 0 287:14,20 

Aprill17:12 126:2 

138:9 204:5 

236:11 260:2 

area 24: 17 34:9 

184:22 280:2 

285:17 286:16 

areas 326:11 

Arik 104:6 

arose 16:7,10 212:3 

218:3 300:5 

arrange 317:9 

arrivall07:5 142:8 

142:19 247:13 

arrived 34:19 

98:11 

arriving 41 :21 

165:10 280:3 

291:14 

Arron 177:4 

artificially 306:21 

ASCII 297:12,22 

ASI 182:8,15 292:6 

ASI's 290:1 

aside 81:4 

asked 127:9,18,22 

149:13 154:17 

313:10 314:3 

asking 142:20 

305:2 313:22 

aspect 279:12 

assessing218:9 

assigned I 04:22 

147:13,15 181:2 

185:18 186:9,11 

214:11 216:21 

222:4,13,17 audible 121:16 14:3,9 16:9 33:3,8 

assignment 127:7 August 328:18 33:13 34:135:21 

127:20 147:22 authority 184:7 38:6 65:16 75:14 

assignments authorizations 75:19,22 78:19 

127:21 181:16,19 84:14 88:2 92:19 

assist 146:13 available 236:6 93:3,5 143:14,17 

190:18 210:11 237:11,13 163:4177:10 

assistance 210:13 Avenue2:5 178:7,7 179:3 

assisting 114:19 average 185:18 210:5,10,21 

130:21 138:7 287:17 212:16 223:17,20 

associated 218:12 aviation 2:4 7: I 0 224:18 226:8 

302:2 20:14 21:6 22:16 248:1 294:15,21 

Associates 2:9 39:6,7 40:8,12 295:1 302:20 

assume 100:15 94:4,6,15 103:20 312:17 323:15 

226:21 249:15 104:17113:7,12 background 20:14 

255:18 282:3 113:15,20 129:22 39:6 94:4 103:20 

300:22 326:13 145:18 146:15,17 113:7129:22 

assumed 19:15 168:1,2,6,20 145:17 167:22 

38:15 93:14 103:7 180:1,2,5,11 180:1 188:13 

112:17 129:11 182:12 227:21 backside33:18 

145:6 167:8 232:8,11,12,15,15 bag 15:19 26:20 

179:11298:11 301:12,12,14 30:4,7 50:4 52:22 

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assumption 211:7 292:9 88:15,19 96:17,19 

assurance 11:22 axis 248:11 99:4,5,9 106:14 

assure 307: I 0 Ayers 3:12 77:15 106:16109:12 

ATC322:20 78:6 179:7,9,18 110:18,19,21 

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180:5,7,9,14 191:3 192:9 193:9 119:18132:10,12 

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attached 96:19 219:13,16 303:19 151:14,20,22 

99:4 310:4 313:1 327:18 328:6 154:2 185:15,16 

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102:8 310:22 B 186: 1,2,2,4,5,6, 10 

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attention 22:20 B-E-N-A-L-L-0 255:6 258:5,14,14 

40:17 47:12 55:6 145:13 270:13,20,21 

62:5 67:2 95:7 B-E-N-J-A-M-1-N 276:7,8 281:2 

96:3 105:7 114:7 167:15 291:14,16 292:8 

115:9 117:3,21 B-L-A 167:15 292:10 304:7,19 

120:2,21 130:16 B-R-0-W-N 307:19 

131:8138:1,19 298:19 baggage 10:17 

146:19 148:2 BllO 21:3 17:1224:1,21 

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~'"'~ ,, '""' ""'-~~·· 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

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61:20 62:10,14,16 

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76: II ,22 77:12,12 

77:17 78:12 79:2 

85:5,20 88:5,8,15 

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118:5 119:7,9,16 

119:16 121:5,22 

125:15,17 127:3 

127:22 139:15 

147:16,19 148:7 

148:10 150:16 

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161:8,14 165:11 

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213:11,14,19 

214:5,17,18215:3 

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balance 13:6,9 14:5 

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284:18 288:9,12 

288:15 289:4,13 

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320:18 321:11,15 

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ballast 55:20 56: I 264:7 270: I 0, II 167:6,15,15,21 

60:19 61:20 72:3 272:1,4 281:8 175:5 

72:12,19 73:8 285:13 287:3,17 blustery 216:4 

78:2 195:18 196:9 291:5 board 34:11 

213:7 214:7 believed 241: 15 Boeing20:18 21:4 

220:12,13 225:20 243:3 Bombardier 248:6 

239:5 242:3 250:8 belonged 318:17 book 58:9 188:12 

banging 8:2 belt24:16 43:14 bother7:6 33:7 

banner 329:11 50:11 56:20 63:2 bottom 24:16 58:13 

bar 30:9 100:22 67:18 119:14 58:20 59:4,19 

base288:11 122:4 148:21 60:12 63:20 65:1 

based 54:19,20 153:21 171:8 68:20 123:12 

55:2 193:17 215:5 124:9 148:21 

196:12197:19 Ben 166:10 150:12 151:21 

203:14208:17 Benallo 3: I 0 153:21 155:9 

236:5 256:21 144:22 145:4,12 248:11 272:21,22 

270:19 273:18 145:16 160:8,9,10 278:6 307:13 

289:18 290:1 164:9 177:4 bough 309:14 

319:14323:5 beneficial21 0:19 box 163:20 

basic 182:11 211:2 boxes 33:14 170:20 

305:13 306:22 Benjamin 167:6,14 210:14 

323:17 Bennett I: I 0 Brasilia 270:8 

basically 86:14 best 30:9 74:8 271:17,19 

161:14 163:19 216:7 277:2 break8:12,13,14 

176:3 210:11 better 17:21 225:2 8:18 92:19 97:17 

250: I 303:21 225:2 289:3 166:18 176:22 

305:1,10 309:4 beyond 232:4 223:15 294:14 

310:21311:12,17 244:17 245:14 330:1 

312:3,20 315:1,3 259:12 322:2 brief9:19,22 10:10 

316:4 326:2 15:15 

beat 121:20 big 81:9 282:3 briefly 20: 13 22: 15 

becoming 182:8 bin 89:10 90:15,19 39:5 94:3 103:19 

beginning 23 8:18 221:1,20 291:16 113:6 129:22 

305:22 binder27:17,21 145:16 167:21 

begins 137:8 44:17 45:15 51:15 183:2 189:20 

behalf2:2,8 314:19 58:22 97:16 bring 25:9 79:13,18 

behavior 211:16 107:16 123:11 80:15 81:4,5 83:3 

belief310:8 132:20 139:18 280:8 304: I 

believe27:5 71:13 149:17 187:6 329:18 

72:12 75:16 79:11 192:18 brother 82:16 

80:5,22 81:11 binders27:18 brought 29:22 80:6 

83:21 87:18,20 birth 11:8 12:14 80:9 

119:17161:20 bit 17:20 230:9 Brown3:14 298:7 

162:1163:6 165:8 282:3 313:8 298:9,18,18,22 

181:9 208:21 black 11:16 30:22 303:4 318:7 

214:8241:21 blank33:4 320:12 321:3,18 

246:14 259:22 Blauer3:11166:11 323:13 324:21 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 334 

327:3,17 328:7,18 

build 311 :I 

Building I: I 0 

bundles 56:10,16 

60:19 

burn 189:11 

259:13 284:4 

business 228:12,15 

301:12 

c 

c 1:18 2:13 3:13,14 

28:2142:17 51:14 

52:5 59:19 66:15 

86:22 97:15 

136:11 149:18 

150:17 204:21 

298:9,17 

C-13:17 44:18 45:3 

45:11 46:6,7,18 

78:19,21 84:14 

85:2,6,12 

C-104:6151:8 

152:8,20 

C-10149:5 

C-102 116:8 

C-103121:14 

C-105 118:20 

C-114:7 154:21 

155:18 157:2 

162:2,7,14 163:3 

202:17,20 

C-12 4:8 155:21 

156: I 0 157:2 

163:10 187:15 

202:17 

C-13 4:9 98:5,18 

100:6 162:2,10,12 

203:15 

C-144:10 158:9,20 

159:6,19 163:10 

187:17 

C-154:11 98:21 

99:14 100:6,9 

C-16 4:12 139:18 

139:20 140:11 

141:22177:16 
204:6,10 

C-17 4:13 140:14 

140:15 141:8,22 

204:7 

C-18 4:14 52:2 

53:20 86:14 

C-194:15 52:15 

53:20 86:14 

204:22 

C-23:1845:15 46:2 

46:6,7,18 78:19 

84:14,16,18 85:15 

C-20 4:16 52:17 

53:5,20 58:11,12 

58:22 

C-214:17 57:17 

58:9,21 59:5,6,15 

61:16 71:4 74:9 

86:22 192: I 7 

195:16 207:20 

212:11,16,17 

213:19 

C-22 4:18 59:21 

60:8 61:16 86:22 

195:3 

C-23 4:19 60:13 

61:2,16 64:3 

C-24 4:20 63:19,21 

63:22 64:4,6,19 

66: II, 13,20 86:22 

C-254:2164:1,2 

65:2,11 66:13 

86:22 

C-26 4:22 65:18 

66:7,13,20 

C-27 5:3 68:18,20 

69:1170:1586:22 

C-28 5:4 69:13 70:2 

70:15 

C-295:5 171:22 

172:2,19175:1 

206:6 

C-3 3:19 132:20 

133:1,15 134:18 

144:17 

C-30 5:6 172:22 

173:10 175:5 

C-315:7 173:13 47:4 54:18,19 298:10 

174:3175:1 55:1 198:11 199:1 calling 177:3 

C-32 5:8 123:11,13 200:6 201:1,9 calls38:1193:9 

124:4 125:12 202:6,19 203:14 102:21 144:21 

206:18,22 204:8 205:2,16 166:10 179:7 

C-33 5:9 124:7,9,21 206:6,21207:7 Canada 168:16 

125:12 206:18 208:1 236:7 Canadair 229:22 

C-34 5: I 0 I 07:16 239:22 242:12 231:22 234:15 

108:12 110:9 243:12 245:15 235:5 237:17 

Ill :8 207:7 246:9 247:8,9,17 271:16 272:12 

C-35 5:11 108:15 248:18,20 250:19 275:12 286:16 

109:4 251:10 261:13 287:16 

C-365:12 109:7,17 265:11 267:5 capabilities 306:13 

110:9 273:6,14 274:1 capable305:8 

C-43:20 133:19,20 276:1 278:10,22 capacity 130: I 0 

134:10,18 135:1 288:15 321:11 capital93 :22 

135:17 136:8 calculating 185:4 captain I 04: I 

142:12 249:21 289:13 I 07:5 I 08:4,9 

C-53:2127:17 28:9 calculation 194: I caption 329: I 0 

28:18 29:13,14 233:11,14 235:9 carbon 75:11,12 

30:15,17,20 31:19 247:16,22 249:15 172:12 

C-6 3:22 157:18 249:16 273:3 carell:l617:7 

158:7 159:19 282:15 288:9,12 18:5 100:14 

165:3 187:7 289:5 297:22 

C-7 4:3 29:9,13,15 calculations 198: I career 282:3 

30:15,17,20 234:18,20,21 cargo 13:13,22 

C-8 4:4 149:16 235:4 243:1,1,5 16:17 20:17 24:17 

150:9 152:20 249:20 280:20 25:4,6 26:20 

160:7,11161:2 289:17,18 290:3 28:12 31:7 34:16 

202:4,7 291:19 292:10 39:9 43:22 44:21 

C-9 4:5 151:6 294:4,12 307:2 45:6 48:12 50:5,9 

152:20 163:10 calculator 86:6 50:19 51:7,19 

187:12 202:4 193:2,3,6 54:3 55:3,17 

C-H-A-V-E-Z California 2: I 0, II 56:18 57:6 58:7,8 

129:18 10:5 58:10,18 59:7,11 

C-H-R-1-S-T-0-... ca1115:10 18:18 62:1 63:1,10 64:3 

298:18 38:8 91:19 93:7 64:12,15 67:10 

cabin 222:17 112:8 129:7 179:4 68:5,12 69:4,7 

cabins 84:7 243:22 295:18 73:15,18,21 80:18 

cable 175:17 298:7 81:2,13,20 83:19 

calculate 193:16 called 19:14 35:18 83:22 84:18 85:1 

194:10 196:12 38:14 73:7,7 85:14 86:17 89:9 

197:18 232:22 93:13 I 03:6 I 04:6 90:13,15,17 96:1 

233:19 234:6 104:7 112:16 96:21,22 97:2,8,9 

247:12 269:22 129:10 145:5 97:12 98:9 101:12 

284:17 167:7 177:6 I 06:22 I 07:4 

calculated 14:13 179:10185:8 I 08:3 110:12,20 

,, 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 335 

ll0:22 ll5:6 

117:19120:18 

122:6 127:11 

131:13 132:18 

133:6,10 139:5 

140:4,7 147:14,20 

150:2,5 155:3 

160:12170:12 

171:5,6,14172:8 

172:10,ll,15 

174:13 175:13 

177:16185:8,11 

185:14 192:20 

193:16 195:7,11 

195:15 196:6,13 

196:21 197:1 

198:22 199:2 

200:2,4,6,11,15 

200:18 201:8,14 

202:7 203:15,18 

204:9,13 205:3,16 

206:6,10,19,20,21 

207:6,10,11,21 

219:20 220:2 

221:1,2,20,21 

237:12 239:1 

242:3 243:2 

244:10 245:14 

251:16,16,20,22 

252:15,22 253:1,5 

254:17,18 258:6,7 

260:7,9,17,18 

262:8, I 0,22 

264:15,18,20 

266:18 268:15,19 

270:14 278:21 

279:1 288:1,6,12 

288:20 289:19 

304:20 306:12 

Carl224:4 226:18 

228:3,14 

carried 17:10,11 

222:16 292:22 

319:1 

carrier 13:4,4 15:6 

87:4 

carriers 17:20 
127:19128:1 

130:5 

carry 28:13 79:9 

carrying 292: 12 

case 11:11,16 12:11 

16:21,2218:12,15 

22:20,22 23:3,5 

26:20 40:17,19 

41:1 42:10 47:12 

47:15,19 71:10 

77:6 78:2 81:6 

95:7,9 105:7,10 

105:13 112:10 

114:7,9 117:3,6 

120:2,5 130:16,18 

138:1,3 145:1 

146:19,21 164:9 

166:12 169:9,11 

169:15 183:20 

192:3,13 198:4,9 

198:10,22199:21 

201:6 202:2 

204:16 208:17 

214:4 218:11 

222:13 256:6 

258:4,9 262:7 

285:14 289:21 

297:22 316:13 

317:12 

cases 11:6 12:2 

15:19,2116:6,7,8 

16:9,10,14 17:14 

17:1418:1,3,5 

19:3 32:12 71:2 

77:8 86:9 87:6 

88:18 182:5 

197:15 207:19 

210:20 212:3 

218:3,6,13,18 

241:13 300:5 

307:4 

casua1189: 18 

category 217:2,10 

217:13,16 218:7 

218:14 220:17 

cats 79:6 

cause 189:13 

244:20 280:2 301:3 check 83:4 84: II 

caused 34:12 259:7 certified 1 04 :II 88:17 89:9 91:9 

276: I 0 308:7 cetera 32:12 97:17,22 166:17 

caveat 286:13 CFI321:4 !66:18 199:17 

CD296:11 CGI89:12191:17 checked 50:7 81:1 

ceiling 283:14 232:22 252:5 84: I 85:20 90:21 

center 188:20 263:15,16,19 91:6,7193:11 

235:3 238:7 269:20 273:6,9,22 !94:15 213:11,14 

239:18,20,21 279:4 214:5 222:8 

240:4,6,13 242:11 challenge 211:12 checkmarks 76:17 

242:14 243:17 challenges 280:8 Chicago 12:12 

244:21246:3 chambers 8:5 117:22 138:19 

247:4,8,16,18,22 chance 14:2 37:19 139:10,14 148:2 

248:12,20 249:1,9 194:4 258:8 149:11150:22 

249:22 250:1,14 change 192:1 153:7 154:16 

250:21 253:16,21 212:18 213:18 155:7,15 156:4 

255:12 257:4 249:9,17 251:2 !63:3 202:2,16 

258:21261:11,12 252:5 263:19,20 204:5 254:6 256:4 

261:16 263:13 266:2 267:9 260:3 264:4 

265:18,20 267:17 269:17276:11,21 297:17,21 

268:4 269:10,13 278:20 291:18 Chief9:3,14 300:18 

271:11,13 273:3 293:1,3 309:9 Childress 314:12 

275:15,20 276:16 changed 16:14 chips211:15 

278:6 284:18,22 165:14 213:8 chopped 318:4 

285:3,6 286:8,9 277:1 chord 248:15,22 

286:22 287:4 changes 165:10,12 249:3,7 251:1 

289:8 196:8 220:5 247:5 261:14,17 267:21 

centered 279:14 292:1 269:15 273:4 

certain 162:9 310:2 characterization 274:14,20 276:12 

certainly II: 14 217:13 276:15 

177:13,20 212:14 characterize Chris 298:7 

321:2,8 323:9 218:16 Christopher 298:9 

325:22 Charlotte 41:8,20 298:17 

certificate 21:8, 14 41:21 44:8 45:7 chronological 

40:1,4 94:12,17 87:19 198:8 264:7 126:4 

104:11,12105:1 chart 248:9, II, 14 circle 90:18 304:2 

114:20 130:8 270:3 272:20 circled 251 :21 

146:14 168:10,13 273:1 275:4 Circular 316: II 

168:21 181:4,6,8 276:22 277:8,17 circumstances 

182:2 231:2,3,5 278:3,6 !91 :8 

301:6,7,8,10 charts 33:10 248:2 cited 311:17 

302:15 321:7 277:18 City 1:11 48:3,14 

certificates 20:19 Chavez 3:9 118:13 51:20 55:7,14 

94:10 104:8 129:7,9,17,21 62:6 67:3 77:11 

145:21 146:1 132:19 136:11 78:1 137:16 146:4 

168:8,11 181:22 142:7 144:8 160:4 170:10 171:19 

230:20 231:6 177:4 192:12,21 204:21 

*-"""'~ _, ~ - ,_ 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 336 

205:13 206:4 

244:4 245:5 250:6 

251:8 302:16 

civilll3:10 

CL-600 168:16 

CL-65 I 04:14 

180:7 182:3 231:2 

301:7 

clarify 313:7,21 

clarity 224:12 

clear 18:14 24:18 

43:15 50:12 56:21 

63:3 67:20 97: I 

106:21116:21 

119:20 122:5 

148:22 !54: 1 

171:9191:6 

295:11 

clearauce322:15 

323:2 ' clearer !51: 19 

234:1 

clearly I 06:17 

clicker 76:14 

client 189:9 

climb 15:1189:10 

238:8 240:20 

242:21 243:17 

283:10,12 294:7 

climbing 241:6 

clock 8:9 

clocks 8:5 

close 166:1248:19 

259:7 287:5 302:8 

closely 3 02:4 

CLR25:13 31:20 

32:2,8,13,15,16 

32:21 33:9 35:12 

44:8,11,20 46:21 

47:5 54:14,19 

55:1 57:12 61:22 

63:13 71:4,16,21 

72:5,6,6 75:4,7,13 

75:14,22 78:13 

83:17 84:15,21,22 

86:11,15 88:4 

98:14 102:3 108:8 
111:8115:7 

117:20 120:20 

122:12123:18,19 

123:22 125:16 

127:12 128:17,18 

128:20,21 132:5 

143:18 147:16 

149:5,14 153:1 

154:6,18155:14 

160:12,15,16 

161:18 162:11,19 

163:4 176:4,8 

193:10,17,21 

196:13 197:19 

198:11199:1 

201:9 202:20 

203:1 208:6 

210:10 212:7,11 

212:13,21214:20 

220:12,13 250:9 

251:20 256:8 

260:7 262:9 

264:16,21 266:18 

268:16 270:15 

290:1 292:1,3,5,6 

292:11,22 304:8 

309:10 

CLRs 16:18 33:13 

71:5,11 72:10 

75:19 87:7,15 

143:9 162:5,21 

210:5,22 291:12 

CLT264:6,7 

CMO 40:7 127:6,9 

130:3,5 146:4 

218:19 303:18 

310:20 311:10,12 

314:21 

CMOs316:4 

code 100:22 

codes 30:9 

cold 216:3 

collaboration 

311:13 

collide 15:2 

Colorado 113:13 

115:1,10117:15 

117:22120:13,22 302:20 312:15 46:12,13,14 53:9 

126:1,7,11131:5 Communications 53:11,14,16 61:6 

131:9138:13,20 122:15 61:7,11,13 66:11 

147:9 148:3 companies 104:6 66:12,15,17 70:6 

149:15 150:22 company 56:5,8 70:7,10,12 99:18 

153:8 154:19 170:15,18,20 99:19 100:1,3,8 

156:4 160:17 171:3 175:14 101:8,10 109:21 

198:21 202:2,16 compare 127:11,12 110:1,4,6 118:19 

204:5 206:17 197:20 319:22 125:3,5,7,9 

254:6,7 256:5 320:1 134:14,15 136:4,5 

260:4 262:6 compared 86:17 141:12,14,17,19 

268:14 compartment 73:2 144:11152:12,13 

colnmn213:9 84:190:17 252:15 152:15,17 156:14 

272:16,17 252:22 254:17 156:15,19,21 

COMAT72:4,20 258:6 260:7,9,16 159:10,11,12,14 

73:7,8173:19 260:17 262:8,11 159:16174:7,8,18 

174:14175:16 264:16,18,20 174:20 

193:13 194:18 266:18,20 268:16 Complaint's 

195:17,18196:9 268:19 270:14 144:12 

213:7 214:6 compensate 305:3 complete 13:15 

220:11,12 250:8 compilation 326:9 87:7 191:15 

266:17,19 Complainant 2:2 219:15 241:9 

come 14:7 15:5 19:14 28:18 29:9 317:7 

79:2 86:4 92:19 30:19 38:14 45:11 completed 13:13 

153:12 180:10 46:2,17 52:2,15 25:13 139:15 

196:15 210:4 53:5,19 59:15 completely 213:2,3 

215:5 226:8 60:8 61:2,15 completeness 317:5 

294:15 321:9 64:19 65:11 66:7 completion 25:10 

comes 11:1 76:17 66:19 69:11 70:2 28:14 32:5 129:4 

90:12,14 291:16 70:14 93:13 98:18 176:17 208:5 

coming 76:10 88:5 99:14 100:5 103:6 304:7,8 

94:21 111:6 108:12 109:4,17 complexity 281 :3,4 

127:22 148:19 110:8112:16 compliance 181:18 

150:16 151:13 124:4,21 125:11 182:14183:12 

153:3,11,22 160:6 129:10 133:15 191:11244:21 

comma306:1 134:10 136:7 comply 311:20 

command 180:6 140:11 141:8,21 complying 188:16 

comment312:4 144:16 145:5 comprehensive 

comments 7:19 150:9 151:6 152:8 17:16 

commercia120:22 152:19 155:18 compnte 234:13 

94:7 180:4 156:10 157:1 compnted 210:6 

Committee 316:11 158:7 159:6,18 compnter 132:16 

common80:7 167:7 172:19 223:16 224:19 

communicate 173:10174:3,22 computing 185:10 

302:14 179:10 277:22 

comm nnication Complainant's concentrating 34:9 

35:17 131:14 3:16 4:2 5:2 concept 312:2 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 337 

concern 209:15 

concerned 36:1 

concluded 293:8 

330:9 

conclusion 37:5 

92:2102:17112:4 

128:9 144:5 

178:12 223:7 

250:17,18 324:17 

conclusions 252:19 

conditionally 

329:16 

conditions 255:17 

257:12 313:17 

condnct 36:18 

170:5 203:6 204:2 

conducting 41:12 

169:21 

confidentiality 9:3 

9:13 10:15 11:4 

12:1 

configuration 

238:15 246:6 

248:22 251:1 

262:20 275:1 

276:4 278:9,10,18 

278:19,21,22 

confined 127:13 

confines 286:6 

confirm 59:3,18 

60:11 63:20 65:1 

65:17 177:2 

conflate 220:16 

conflicting 197:4 

confront 302:13 

confronted 9: 14 

confused 18:17 

confusing 195:1 

Congratulations 

282:2 

connecting 280:4 

connection 35:9 

88:1 170:7 210:19 

302:10 

consequence 27:9 

consider 9:9 88:21 

282:15 320:3 

~ 
consideration 

303:19 308:12 

313:2,9 

consists 306:21 

construction 306:5 

contacted 25:15 

34:21 285:20 

contacting 35:6 

contain 164:10 

289:7 

contained 203: 14 

204:9 290:10 

container 81 :7 

82:12,20 222:7 

contains 27:21 

165:4 187:2 

188:12 248:6 

contents3:1 329:12 

context 326:1 

Continental87:20 

90:3 

contingency 259: II 

259:14 

Continued 4:1 5:1 

6:1 128:15 

contractors 25:12 

87:12 123:6 132:3 

139:14 

contrary 9:5 

control189: 14 

240:15 

controls 36:15 

convened 1: 12 

convenience 98:2 

coordinated 227:2 

coordinates 322:20 

copies 143:10,12 

162:22 210:21 

220:2 303:5 

319:11326:10 

copy 25:17 28:12 

28:15 31:20 32:2 

32:8,14,15,19 

33:2,3,4,19 42:16 

44:7,13 45:6,8,19 

45:21 51:6,19,21 

52:9, II 57:20,21 

58:6,9 59:10 60:3 80:18,19 81:10,16 288:22 289:1 

60:5 64:12,14 81:22 82:1,7,21 290:2 292:13 

65:5,7 68:11 69:4 82:22 83:5,6,15 293:3,4 295:8 

69:6,17,1971:11 84:12 85:22 86:3 305:15,18 307:15 

71:12,15,20,20 86:9,10,19 97:18 309:5,6,10,11,22 

72:3,6, 16,17 100:16 102:3 310:6,16,17 312:8 

73:21 75:8,11 111:11,19114:16 312:9319:19 

85:4 98:12,13,14 117:13 124:2 320:6 327:4 

I 02:2,6,9 108:6,7 126:4 127:4,8,14 328:11 

108:8,21,22 109:1 128:19 142:9,10 corrected 73:21 

111:9123:20,21 142:19 143:1,11 193:21 212:7,13 

123:22 124:15,16 160:18,19 161:16 correction 72:15 

124:17 133:8,9, I 0 162:16,17,19 72:17 274:16 

134:6,8 140:5,6 163:18 164:2,3,13 correctly 15:18 

141:2,6 149:6,13 164:20 165:7,14 31:7 46:21 54:14 

149:14 150:2,4,12 166:20 171:4 54:22 62: I 83:9 

151:2154:7,8,17 176:1 178:3 89:3 101:13 

154:18 155:3,5,5 181:11 195:19 110:13 125:16 

155:6,14156:3,6 196:10,11 197:5 153:2 174:14 

158:3 159:1 200:13 201:3,17 196:9 200:3,11 

160:21,22 161:3 201:22 202:14 211 :9,12 226:9 

162:18172:11,12 203:21 204:3,15 250:10 310:19 

172:14173:6 206:2 208:8,15,16 correlate 54:18 

192:20 196:6 209:18 210:2,3,12 204:8 206:20 

197:6,7 207:2 210:16 211:10,22 correspond 88:5 

212:8 219:19 212:8,13,20,21,22 correspondence 

225:8 226:12 214:7 215:7,11,20 326:9 

236:14,16 292:1,3 216:22 217:1 corresponding 

292:4 297:10 218:4 220:9 222:5 86:16 

310:5 314:13 222:6,9,12,15 corresponds 74:10 

317:7 318:3 323:7 233:15,17 234:22 costs 259:9 

COR25:18 237:6 239:13 connsel2:4, 13 7:6 

corner 132:22 243:19 247:11 8:15 20:10 27:19 

133:20 139:21 249:18 250:2,3,13 37:6 39:2 42:15 

140:16 172:3 251:18 252:6 49:3 103:16 113:3 

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202-234-4433 

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202-234-4433 

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202-234-4433 

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226:7,19,22 26:20 29:6 31:9 hired 104:21 

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235:7 281:19 50:4 52:22 62:16 104:9,10,14 144:9 

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296:19 297:10 96:17,18 99:4 231:1,3 

316:21317:12,17 101:14 106:12,14 holder 181:4 

320:11 322:4 106:15,17,18 holdover 267: 13 

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112:5 151:13,22 153:10 12:21 16:118:13 

Harvey 19:13 20:8 153:16,17161:8,9 27:2 29:11,17 

hazards 188: 19 186:4,5,6,1 0,12 38:10 40:10 42:11 

189:1 193:11194:15 44:22 46:4 53:7 

head 8:2 76:6 213:14 241:3 61:4,10 66:9 70:4 

246:13 252:14,21 253:1,4 73:11 74:15 91:16 

headquarters 254:8,16,17,21 91:21 97:22 99:16 

107:9 311:14 255:6 256:7,15 99:22 101:4,19 

heads 314:15 258:5,6,13 260:6 102:14103:3 

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8:7 15:19 16:11 121:7 146:13 152:10 156:12,18 

19:21 38:4 92:3 257:21 264:4 159:8,22 165:20 

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'""'''~' ""''''="'' 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

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30:16 42:18 45:12 

46:3,6,13 49:6 

52:3,16 53:6,10 

53:15 59:16 60:9 

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172:20 173:11 

174:4,8,19 293:12 

297: I 303: I 0 

317:16 325:11,19 

326:8 327:1,10 

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311:15 

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216:15,16,17 

236: I 277:14 

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ill14:7 

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illumination including 151 :22 290:4,7,9 313:19 

226:15 incorporated 39:14 314:18 316:5,7 

immediately 180:16 227:12 318:20,21 319:5 

238:18 324:3 320:20 321:15 

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208:22 209:2,3 47:8 55:2 176:8 inherent 190:4 

246:22 255:12 191:12 195:16 inherently 280:12 

263:6,8 267:3 197:11200:7,17 280:13 

268:7,7 200:20,22 20 I :2 initial15:20 16:12 

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268:21 269: II 202:10,13 203:3,7 237:2 300:14 

272:2 203:18,20 204:1,2 ink322:16 

implement 312:11 205:6,10 input 122:21 

implementation incorrectly 13: 13 inputs 122:19 

306:6 increase 189:10,10 inquiry 222: I 

implementing 259:8,13 inserted 278:7 

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implications 285:5,11 287:1 62:6 

280:18 323:17 inspected 67:4 

implied 213:5 index 248: 13 89:17 90:6 96:5 

important 14:15 indicate 90:18 121:2 

210:18 218:21 155:10 251:17 inspecting 36: II 

219:2 240:12,14 indicated 9: I II :6 inspection 23:6,9 

290:21 19:20 56:15 72:3 23: 14, 16,22 25: 1 

inability 189:11 85:8,9 86: II 26:4 34:15,18 

inaccurate 13:15 251:15 260:17 41:15,17 42:2 

13:19 190:5 203:1 262:22 264:16,21 48:18 55:16 62:9 

204:14,14,18 indicates 196:20 67:8 95:14,18,22 

205:20 206:1,10 251:14 260:7 96: I, 7 I 06:6,10 

206:11,14 207:11 262:9 266:18 127:16 147:13 

207:12,13,16,17 268:16 274:6 148:4,6 169:22 

220:7 indication 323:20 170:3,11 

inbound 23:20 25:8 indicator 85: I inspections 22: 18 

25:21 26:8,16 infer201:15 202:9 23:4 95:13 170:6 

29:6 203:3,19 230:17 

inch 249: II, 12 influence 326:14 inspector21:6 

269:20 influenced 19:4 22:16 40:8,13,22 

inches 248:13 information 9:3,5 47:18 94:15,16 

incidence 120:9 9:1311:112:17 113:15,20 114:12 

incident 17:12 13:15 44:9,15 116:1 117:9 118:9 

114:13,14117:10 51:12 61:22 63:17 118:11,12,13 

include 222:7 68:16 100:19 120:8 121:9 

238:20 291:17 101:2,7 122:20 135:19 146:16,17 

299:8 303:22 161:6175:12 169:14180:13 

included 79:19 188:13,14191:13 181:10,13,14 

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~ ·- ~~"" ' 

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196:5 

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202-234-4433 

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occur286:2 71:10,15,19 72:5 251:8 

occurred 114:13,14 72:9,19 73:6,20 omission 251: I 9 

262:5 321 :22 75:12,17,21 76:3 on-site 114:12 

occurring285:12 76:9,13,18 77:10 117:9 120:8 

October 15:20 77:16,22 78: 18,22 on-the-job 48:7 

16:11 79:5,17 80:6,14 77:14 78:5 

odds 197:1 80:20 81:3,19 onboard 14:6 31:6 

offer 152:11 184:16 82:2 83:1,13 84:5 42:3 43:3 47:1 

190:22 325:13 85:10 86:4,12 48:13,17 49:13,15 

offered 190:10,13 87:14 88:1,14,16 49:20 50:5,9 

235:8 320:22 89:12 97:19 98:1 54:20 55:17,20 

325:12 327:3,19 100:20 111:8,20 56:6,18 62:14,16 

328:14 125:22 127:2,5 62:20 67:12 79:14 

offering I 0:16 128:14 134:12 79:18 80:9,16 

27:22 143:8,20 155:12 81:4 96:8,12 

offers235:1,15 155:13 160:20 106:9,12 110:14 

304:9 161:2,5,21162:8 115:14,18 118:1,5 

office 1:2 2:4 11:21 163:2,7,19 165:9 125:17148:11 

12:5 21 :9 40:2,5 165:16 166:12,16 153:9,14 170:12 

94:18 104:22 172:4 178:4 187:8 170:16,21174:14 

105:2 114:20 193:18 194:6,12 196:13 200:2,12 

149:15 154:20 195:4 196:15 220:21 222:17 

168:21 181:6 207:3 210:4 245:14 307:3 

228:2 302:16 211:11212:10 once214:21 215:4 

officer 181 :2 213:1,10 215:13 one-half265 :21 

229:22 230:2,4 216:12 217:7,10 269:14 

offline312:18 217:16 218:5,12 one-hundredths 

offload 215:18 219:5 222:10 277:4 

offloaded 16:20 223:13 224:8,14 one-inch271:14 

62:2 67:17109:12 224:17,20 225:7 ones 87:21 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 351 

ongoing 17:18 

open 302:18 

opening 6:8,9 9:17 

9:20,22 I 0:7 

15:12,15 

operate 196:17 

197:3204:17 

255:16 314:1 

operated 13:19 

14:4,19 35:10 

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90:5 195:8 209:11 

231:15 241:5 

244:1,3 254:4,6 

256:4 257:19 

260:2,3 264:3,9 

266:13,16 268:12 

270:6 292: II 

operating36:14 

146:14181:8 

188:17,19189:2 

190:5 232:21 

233:6 238:9 

240:21 241:8,16 

242:22 243:18 

245:3,4 250:6 

252:11 290:14 

291:1,22 305:13 

306:22 307:7,12 

313:17 323:17 

operation 209:5 

245:17,20 246:22 

268:8 272:3 280:6 

281:4 290:12 

317:2 

operational181:17 

184:1 215:2 261:9 

306:18 308:6 

operations 41:13 

48:8 170:8 180:13 

181:10,12,14 

184:5 212:2 23 7:1 

285:20 286:6,14 

288:6 299:4,6,12 

299:13,20 300:2,5 

300:20,21 301:17 

301:18 302:11,12 
306:1,3 309:21 

310:2 320:13,14 

325:10 

operator's 183: II 

191:11 

opinion 246:20 

249:9 263:20 

274:7 276:5 311 :5 

opportunity 55:8 

197:14 254:9 

256:9 260: I 0 

262:12 266:21 

282:6 

opposing 27:19 

49:3 116:6 118:20 

121:12 236:15 

opt 84: II 

orange 24: I 0, I 0 

50:3 96:18 106:18 

119:18 

order 126:4 246:15 

orders 9:6 

original75:19 

98:12 108:6,21 

123:19 124:15 

133:7 134:6 140:5 

141:4 277:6 

329:18 

originals 177:21 

originated 87:19 

98:10 

originating 88:2 

97:10132:18 

137:3 143:15,18 

154:15 162:6,15 

212:19 

origination 50:22 

57:9 68:8 107:13 

123:7 128:18 

131:19,21 139:10 

149:11 171:19 

ought 177:9 

outbound 23:16 

outcomes 216:19 

outside 14:19 

221:10 222:21 

253:13 257:4 

258:21271:12 99:7 151:15 295:16 

285:17,21 286:5 173:14 paused 235:13 

286:14 313:12,17 paginating 328:16 payload 305:17 

314:1,4,18 paid 323:7 PDC322:14 

overall 181: 15 paper 75:8 PDF225:11297:10 

overhead291:15 papers 132: II penalize 305:6 

overruled 194:5 paperwork 13:11 penalties 16:1,4 

221:22 322:10 139:15 302:6 307:14,17 

overrun 14:21 paragraph 305:21 penalty 305:2,3 

Overseas 104:6 305:22,22 308:2 309:13 

oversee 21: 17 paragraphs 2 93: 18 pencil28:4 270:2 

181:18,18 paramount 306:18 275:6,6 

oversight 22:17 Pardon 18:20 74:4 pending 329:16 

181:7 299:9 84:15 people 12:22 13:2 

overstate 215: 15 partl0:1123:4,22 17:6,17 89:2 

overweight 12:21 25: I 32:4,5 34:6 215:9 

13:3 88:13 188:20 41:19 42:2 48:8 perceived 242:17 

189:3,5 48:11 55:16 62:9 243:8 275:21 

67:7 89:8 96:7 percent 248: 15,21 p - 106:5,10115:13 249:2,6,7 250:22 

P-E-R-K-1-N-S 127:7 146:5,7 251:5 252:3 

39:1103:15 147:19 148:6 261:14,17 263:17 

P-R-0-C-E-E-D-... 170: II 183:6 265:21 267:20 

7:1 187:4189:17 269:15 273:4 

p.m 137:9,10 179:2 200:8 208:4 274:3,13,19 

223:19,21294:20 220:10,19 240:16 276:11,15 277:4 

294:22 330:12 255:7 272:6 perfection 281:9,13 

package 171:10 289:18 315:8 281:14 

page6:7 45:14 324:7 perfectly 82:6 

58:13 60:12 63:21 particular 44:5 281:11 

64:1,22 65:15 127:20 181:3 perform 105:18 

75:7,9,13 99:7,8 189:6 192:3 214:3 106:6 138:16 

160:15 172:1 240:9 248:17 147:7 240:17 

195:2 236:17 253:2 277:7 321:16 

243:21 245:2 279:18 performance 17:5 

248:5 249:5 250:4 particularly 248:3 23:16 34:18 41:15 

251:6 252:7,10 parts 32:3 242:11 41:16 147:13 

254:3 256:2 pass 15:5 189:5 200:5,22 

257:18 260: I passenger 10:18 201:20 202:12 

262:3,4 264:2,2 30:10 79:19 80:14 203:6 204:1,17 

266:12 268:11 83:2 91:3 165:10 205:8,10,22 

270:5 273:5 238:21291:15 206:13 207:16 

274:16 275:16 315:4 319:8 209:8 230:16 

305:20 307:13 passenger's I 00:9 235:11 237:18 

308:1,14,16,17 passengers 17: 11 238:8,8 240:20,20 

329:12 122:21 241:3,4,7 242:21 

pages 12:12,16 pause 253:20 280:2 242:21 243:17,18 

"-'?L"' =-~ 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 352 

257:16 261:3,5 

280:17 281:6 

285:8 289:9 

306:17 307:2 

308:8 313:13,16 

314:2,5 

performed 41:1,6 

47:19 95:17 

115:11 117:15 

120:14 147:2 

148:4 234:17 

241:11251:3 

307:2 

performing 23: 15 

282:16 289:16 

290:3 305:9 

period 17:9 

Perkins 3:5,7 38:11 

38:13,22 39:1,5 

40:16 42:20 49:8 

54:13 67:1 70:22 

89:16 90:20 92:7 

102:22 103:2,5,14 

103:15,19110:12 

177:4 

permission 42:12 

48:21116:2 

118:15 121:15 

195:20 313:22 

person 77:19,20 

226:21 285:19 

personalll:9 12:2 

personally 19:22 

personnel59:12 

87:6 107:12 139:8 ' 

141:1185:4 290:5 : 

persons 191 :20 

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pertained 262:15 

265:2 

pertaining 235:4 

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phases 241:9 

philosophy 308:10 

Phoenix 62:5 

205:13 245:4 

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phone 11:9 193:3,5 

199:19 

photo 61:19 65:17 

99:8 109:14 152:5 

photograph 99:3 

214:18,21 

photographs 10:17 

66:1 173:18 

photos 99:10 152:3 

physical249:12 

physically 307:3,6 

physics 240:16 

picked 142:13 

picture 53:2 60:18 

109:11 151:12,18 

151:19,21 

pictures 24:22 29:5 

52:21 79:1,2 

piece 100:19 253:3 

254:21256:17,19 

273:19 274:9 

pieces 17:12 111:6 

111:10,12 210:7 

pigs 79:7 

pilot 20:16 21:1 

32:15 103:21 

104:11162:18,22 

168:12 180:6 

182:2,20 183:5,7 

183:17 208:19 

228:4 229:13 

231:1264:10 

287:21 288:8 

290:20 300:16, I 7 

300:18301:1 

321:7,9 

pilot's 128:17 

155:5 180:3 

pilots 25:8 28:13 

32:4 54:7 57:13 

63:14 68:13 72:14 

72:16 288:3,5 

302:8 321:6 323:3 

pit 251:22 

pitch 189:13 

place 14:11,14 23:7 

23:10 41:3 47:20 

48:2 95:14 104:7 304:12 possible 10:3 253:4 

105:15 114:22 pleasure 294:15 255:5 292:9 306:9 

117:12 120:10 plot248:9 273:9 possibly 127:1 

131:1,4 138:8,12 274:12 275:14,19 potentiall78: 10 

147:4 157:9 276:21 277:2 188:19 

158:11169:17 278:7,11 potentially 11:5 

215:4,7 216:7,17 plots276:19 305:5 

285:12 308:9 plottable 275:3 pound 80:11 

323:8 324:9 plotted 273:2 277:6 270:19 273:17 

placed 228:20 plotting 249:4 274:12 276:14 

276:16 276:13 309:5 

plan 306:11 plug224:19 pounds 56:3,10,11 

plane43:9 50:10 plus 80:20 82:12,19 56:13 72:3,4,21 

56:19 62:2 85:20 83:8 132:18 81:11,22,22 82:4 

97:2 116:22 122:6 267:13 82:6 83:5,5,9,10 

186:13 193:11 POI214:10 86:11 106:20 

194:12,13 213:18 point 18:7 26:18 170:22171:1,2 

240: I, 17 264:15 51:1 57:9 107:13 175:22 176:4 

264:17 123:7 149:11 185:19,20,22 

planes 12:22 87:5 154:15 171:20 186:3,7,16,19 

planned 189:12 180:22 190:20 193:12 194:13,16 

241:10 251:3 194:22 239:22 194:16 195:17,18 

258:19 283:21 240:7,7,8,9 195:18196:19 

planning 241:4 261:16 267:20 222:4,4 244:17 

259:5,6 274:18 275:5 245:13,19 246:1 

plans 160:5 289:4312:16 246:10,12,14,17 

plastic 175:16 313:10 322:18 246:18,18 247:2 

play 226:6 246:18 324:4 325:12 248: I 0,20 249:5,6 

246:21 261:2 330:2 250:11,20 251:17 

263:2 267: II pointed 296:12 253:12 255:9,11 

304:6 poker211:14 256:21 257:3 

played 227:8 229: I policies 183: 11 258:17,18 260:16 

please7:8 19:18 188:15 260:20 261:1,2,15 

27:17 28:21 38:18 policy 259: I 0 310:6 262:21 263:2,5,14 

51:14 52:5 57:16 poor Ill :9 264:20 265:5,10 

60:10 93:17 portion 172:13 265:14 266:9,19 

103:10 112:20 180:17 212:5 266:20 267:2,6,8 

123:10 129:14,21 296:15 267:10 268:6,18 

132:19 133:18 pose285:1 268:20 269:1,5,6 

145:9 167:11 posed 208:22 269:7,12 271:6 

179:14 200:9 position I 04:1 272:2,19 273:2,15 

227:15 228:11 229:19,21 282:1 273:22 274:5,13 

244:8 252:8,19 299:15,16,18 276:3,6,9 277:3 

254:13 260: I 300:6,21 302: II 278:21 279:1 

262:3,17 264:3 possession 12:3 307:19,20,21 

266:12 275:9 possibility 88:21 power246:19 

277:12 298:14 89:1,8 powerplant 94:12 

'" "' 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 353 

' 146:2 I practically 216:15 

practices 304:3 

pre 322:14 

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309:14 

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310:18 312:20 

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preliminarily 30: I 

226:20 

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258:5 260:6,9 

262:8,10 264:15 

264:18 266:17,19 

268:15,17 270:14 

307:5,6 318:7 

presentation 26:19 

presented 28:3 

272:18 

presumably 35:12 

221:8 309:21 

pretty 215:6,19,22 

previous 27: II 

89:6 254:15 

256:14 259:17 

310:16 

previously 30:19 

42:17 46:17 49:5 

53:9,19 61:15 
66:19 70:14 74:22 

100:5 109:21 

110:8116:8 

118:19121:14 

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141:12,21 144:16 

152:19 157:1 

159:10,18174:22 

277:18 297:4 

317:20 326:4,19 

327:13 328:2 

329:6 

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184:5 212:2 238:6 

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87:11 92:16 

100:18176:4 

225:5 286:15 

300:8 318:17 

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problems 255:16 proper 304:6,7 queries 322:21 

procedure 220:11 proposal304:1,9 query221:17 

291:22 309:1 304:11,13 305:20 question 8:10 

procedures 17:18 306:15 310:20 13:14 43:8 82:13 

183:11 184:1,4,8 311:3,8,17 312:12 90:22 101:4 

188:15 208:2,5,6 312:21313:1,20 128:13 164:12,19 

208:9 216:17 316:7,14 323:16 191:10,19 200:9 

299:13 306:6 323:22 324:2 221:13,19 233:4 

312:6 proposed 214:9 233:22 237:3 

proceed 103:16 303:20 241:13 285:11 

228:21 protect 9: 12 questioning 18:14 

proceeding 228:18 protected 12:1 questions 31:12 

process 67:21 proves 194:21 36:7,22 70:17 

210:17218:1 provide 297:9 89:13 91:14 

220:7 299:10 313:18 314:17 101:17 102:12 

302:9 provided27:19 111:1,21125:19 

processes216:16 71:13 191:13 128:4 142:2 

302:2,5 210:20 234:15 143:21 159:21 

prodnce315:3,22 236:15 246:4 164:5,14 165:17 

produced 315:12 256:17285:14 174:17176:12 

producing 311:19 323:6 198:4 209:19 

313:16 provision 32:10 219:6 221:4 223:1 

professional psychology 232:14 223:3281:17 

302:18 pull319:21 291:6 292:15,17 

program 13:7,9 pulled 135:19 320:9 324:11 

32:1141:18 48:10 purely 287:16 quick 18:21 246:13 

79:21 80:3 81:7 purpose 23: 13 quietly 42:21 

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208:4 220:15,20 pnrposely215:14 R-2 225:14 

220:22 247:15 purposes 28:2 R-216:6 74:9,12,15 

288:11 299:10,12 186:8191:5 75:1 194:1 212:6 

303:21 305:19 224:12 212:11,17 213:21 

307:10 308:4,8 pursuant 1:12 R-3-15:14 224:9 

324:4,8 put7:21 12:10 225:14,16,17 

programs 181:19 24:12 26:21 28:3 293:10,14 295:13 

182:18,18 216:14 28:5 89:4 208:12 R-3-2 5:15 224:11 

project 280:9 212:17 213:20 225:18 

projects 229:15 304:19 308:9 R-3-3 5:16 224:13 

230:6,8,9,11 319:6 226:1293:11 

234:18 279:7 -- R-4 5:17 303:8 

promoted 300:18 --- Q --~~ 309:1 316:19,22 

proof 190:22 quantity214:18 320:12 325:5,9 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 354 

326:5 

R-5-15:18 303:6,9 

303:15 310:16 

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316:19 325:6 

328:22 329:7 

R-6 315:15 

R-0 145:12 

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raised 271:5 

raising 271 :7 

ramp 140:22 141:3 

142:18,22 143:4 

215:6,10,22 

279:14,22 287:22 

288:5 312:5 

ramper 76: I ,3 

rampers 35:13,14 

36:2 215:15 

range 16:9 186:1,5 

186:17 284:7 

rapid 308:12 

rate 189:10 283:10 

rated 208:19 231:9 

231:13 

rating 104:14 

ratings 20: 19,22 

21:2104:8,13 

168:14 182:2 

301:3 

Ray 12:18 

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reach 283:6 

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262:17 305:21 

308:2 
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19:22 73:4 85:3,3 

88:18 208:8 209:7 

211:21217:3,14 

218:6240:16 

249:8 251:22 

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280:16 285:19 

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281:12 

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42:6 43:2,6,9 

48:16 49:12 56:1 

62:13 77:1,18,21 

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115:17,21116:14 

118:4119:6,9 

121:4,21 126:19 

148:10170:18 

192:18 325:11 

receive 175:13 

182:21291:14 

received 3:16 4:2 

5:2 6:2 30:16,20 

45:7,20 46:14,18 

51:20 52:12 53:16 

53:21 56:14 60:4 

61:12,17 66:16,21 

69:7,20 70:11,16 

74:15,19 75:1 

100:2,7 101:9 

110:5,10125:8,13 

136:4,8 141:18 

142:1144:10,13 

144:17150:5,13 

150:14 152:16,21 

155:6 156:7,20 

157:3 159:3,15,19 

160:21,22172:15 93:18103:11 redo 15:18 

174:19175:2 112:21,22 129:15 reduce 16:4 189:9 

182:7,17 183:5,15 144:10 145:10 189:9 302:2,8 

183:18 184:22 167:12178:5,6,8 reduced 286:2 

199:19 237:2 178:13 179:4,15 reengage 312:21 

292:7 293:15 190:22191:5 reengaged 312:22 

295:14 297:1,6 219:8 223:17,19 refer !63:9 

302:7 316:20 223:20 224:13 reference 42:9 

317:16,21 325:3,7 227:10,16 228:12 48:18 217:4 274:4 

325:20 326:5,20 234:1251:18 319:7 

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328:3,8 329:3,4,8 295:2,11298:16 248:16271:16 

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78:5 180:3 82:6 83:10 229:1 60:7 61 :I 64:18 

recess 178:15 241:15 250:9 65:10 66:6 69:10 

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28:22 45:2,15 recording 7:15 99:13 108:11 

50:1 51:16 52:6 77:20 109:3,16 124:3,20 

52:18 57:17 59:22 records 28:6 295:6 133:14 134:9 

60:15 64:9 65:4 recounts 76:19 136:21 140:10 

65:20 69:1,14 recover 14:21 141:7 150:8 !51 :5 

96:16 98:4,22 286:3 152:7 155:17 

107:22 108:16 recovery 285:9,10 156:9 158:6 159:5 

109:8 119:15 recreation 236:5 172:18173:9 

123:15 124:11 Recross 3:3 174:2 272:14 

132:13 133:3 RECROSS-EXA ... 293:9 295:2 303:7 

134:1140:1,18 164:15221:5 308:22 

148:14 149:21 292:19 referring 44:20 

150:18 151:9 rectify 8:8 309:2 

154:22 155:22 recurrent 182:17 reflect46:21 53:1 

157:19 172:5 183:12 54:14 62:1 99:10 

173:1,15 red278:2,4 101:14109:13 

recognizing 3 04:5 redact 10:22 11:13 110:13173:21 

304:14 11:1429:2130:9 174:14200:11 

recollection 296:7 100:11,13,21,22 203:1 205:2,17 

recommendation redacting 12:13 206:5 207:6 

316:10 redaction 31:1 219:20 220:1,5 

reconvene 177:19 redirect 3:3 36:8 293:1,2 

330:11,14 89:14 102:13 reflected 31:7 

record 7:4,6,7,16 111:22128:5 86:15 196:9 200:3 

7:1710:11 16:22 143:22 144:1 207:5 293:19 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 355 

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279:2 296:16 

5-1325:6 326:16 

5-2 326:22 327:9,11 

5-3 327:16 

5-4 328:5 

5-5 318:2 328:9 

329:15 

5-6 328:14,15 329:3 

329:10 

5-7 328:14,17,20 

329:2 

5:00 8:21 

50 186:3,6,19 

50-pound 56:2 

50,000 276:14 

50,080 276:3 

50,110 276:10 

51106:19 

524:14,15 

5223 1:9 

534:14,15,16,16 

5400 263:1,6 

5449 106:6 108:5 

108:20 109:12 

207:3 270:5 

277:16 

5840 41:21 84:16 

198:8,15 264:4 

266:10 

59 4:17 

5th 126:2 198:21 

199:21 

6 -----

6159:10,12,14,16 

201:7 227:9 250:4 

296:1308:1 

6,000 260:20 261:2 

60 4:18 81:8,22 

82:6 83:5,10 

85:13 171:1 

194:16 222:4 
255:9, II 256:21 

257:2 258:18 

270:19 271:6 

272:2 307:20 

60-pound I 86: 11 

600 309:4 

614:17,18,19,19 

634-3530 2: I 7 

64 4:20 

65 4:21 

66 4:20,21,22,22 

67,000 246:17 

248:19 249:5,6 

6756 117:22 118:5 

119:7,10 138:19 

148:2 150:22 

152:2 160:13 

161:19 202:1 

204:5 254:4 260:3 

275:15 

69 5:3 

6960 96:3,9,12 

98:10 100:15 

158:11,16 203:9 

257:20 

6991153:7 156:4 

161:19 162:7 

202:15 256:3 

---

7 

728:22117:12 

138:9 204:5 251:6 

260:2 323:15 

70 3:5 5:3,4,4 80:10 

70-pound 80:9,20 

82:3 83:7 

700 231:11 235:5 

245:4 260:3 262:6 

268:13 307:21 

71,000 246:16 

71,420 273:15 

71,500 273:21 

274:13,17 

73,000 269:5 

737 21:4 

74 6:6,6 

747 20:18 

75,000 274:12 

7th 126:2 

...... 

8 -

823:7 34:20 152:12 

152:13,15,17 

158:2 201:5 252:7 

252:10,11 273:5 

308:14,16,17 

328:18 

8:00227:10 

810 278:22 

840 278:21 

84138 1:11 

84790 2:16 228:16 

89 3:5 

8th 157:9 

9 

.~ •"N0'!!JW! '"'--'"-""'"' 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

p age 365 

-
366 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Skywest Airlines 

Before: US DOT/FAA 

Date: 05-19-14 

Place: Salt Lake City, UT 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com