### Page 1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY ENERGY CONSERVATION PROGRAM FOR CONSUMER PRODUCTS
TEST PROCEDURE FOR MICROWAVE OVENS
PUBLIC MEETING
THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 16, 2010The Public Meeting convened in Room 8E089 in the Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Douglas Brookman, Facilitator, presiding. PRESENT DOUGLAS BROOKMAN, Facilitator JENNIFER AMANN, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy WES ANDERSON, Department of Energy JAMES BATTAGLIA, Navigant Consulting JENNIFER CLEARY, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers (AHAM) CAMILLA DUNHAM WHITEHEAD, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory LUKE HARMS, Whirlpool Corporation BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy TIM LONG, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project KEVIN MESSNER, AHAM WAYNE E. MORRIS, AHAM CRAIG NOLD, General Electric KENNETH NSOFOR, Navigant Consulting JUDITH REICH, Navigant Consulting MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council TROY WATSON, Navigant Consulting Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### Page 2 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S Welcome, Wes Anderson . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Opening Remarks, Introductions, & Agenda Review, Doug Brookman
. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Introduction, Background, & Legal Authority, Wes Anderson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 1 Standby & Off Mode Power Test Procedure, Judith Reich: Covered Products, Effective Date, & Measures of Energy Consumption
. . . . . 18 Incorporation by Reference of IEC Standard 62301
. . . . . . . . . . . . . 62 Definitions of "Active Mode", "Standby

Mode", & "Off Mode" . . . . . . . . . . 67 Measurements for Standby & Off Mode Testing
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 86 Specifications for Test Methods &

Compliance with Other EPCA Requirements
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98 Active Mode Test Procedure, Judith Reich:
Introduction
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 105
Previous Active Mode Provisions
. . . . 107 Potential Methodology
. . . . . . . . . 114 Conclusions & Closing Remarks, Wes Anderson . 126 Adjourn .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 127

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 9:10 a.m. MR. ANDERSON: Good morning, everyone. I'm Wes Anderson. I'm with the Department of Energy. I'm the Project Manager responsible for the test procedures that we're going to talk about today. It should be, hopefully, a pretty straightforward and quick meeting. We have it scheduled for 2:00 but maybe we can get through it a lot quicker than that. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

start. to just g MR. ANDERSON: That's it.

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: o around the table now? Do you want

Let me just

Good morning, everybody. Welcome. My name is Doug Brookman from Public Solutions in Baltimore. This is the US Department of Energy's Public Meeting on Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products: Test Procedure for Microwaves. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 4 This is a supplemental NOPR. It's our tradition to do introductions around the room. We'll start and go this way. Please say your name and organizational affiliation. This may not all be on the record. We can hear each other, there are few enough of us. So you can just say your name and organizational affiliation. MR. HARMS: My name is Luke Harms. I'm with Whirlpool Corporation. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. MR. MESSNER: Kevin Messner with AHAM. MR. NOLD: Craig Nold with General Electric. MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council. MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Betsy? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 5 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General Counsel's Office. MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant Consulting. MR. WATSON: Troy Watson, Navigant Consulting. MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Camilla Dunham Whitehead, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. MS. REICH: Judith Reich with Navigant Consulting. MR. LONG: Tim Long from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. MR. SHARP: Mark Sharp, Panasonic. MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris with AHAM. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think many of you, perhaps almost all of you, have participated in these meetings previously. I'm going to do a very quick agenda review and then we're going to launch into the
content. Immediately following this agenda review, there is an opportunity for anybody that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 6 wishes to do so to make opening remarks to emphasize key issues/concerns that you might have here at the outset. Following that we'll have an introduction, background, and legal authority from Wes Anderson. Then we'll launch into the more detailed substantive content, standby off mode power test procedure: covered products, effective date, and measures of energy consumption. Then standby and off mode power test procedure: incorporation by reference of IEC Standard 62301. We'll take a break mid-morning around 10:45 or so. Then proceeding on, definitions of active mode, standby mode, and off mode. All of you have this material, I believe. It's in your packet. Then immediately following from there, compliance with other EPCA requirements. Then standby and off mode power test Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 7 procedure conclusions and closing remarks. We'll break around noon for lunch. If we're close to concluding this and it's close to lunch, maybe we'll just press on and keep going. We'll see how it works out. If we break for lunch, when we return it'll be the active mode test procedure introduction. Then moving directly to previous active mode provisions, potential methodology, and then finally active mode test procedure conclusions and closing remarks. As Wes said, we'll just try and be expeditious today, not wanting to diminish your opportunity for comment. That's what you're here for. That's what we want to make sure happens. Questions and comments about the agenda? I think most of you are familiar with the way we do this. The slides will be on the screen. All of you have a copy of them in your packet. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 8 There's also a copy of the Federal Register notice for you to refer to. I'd ask for your consideration if you would, please, speak one at a time. Please say your name for the record. There will be a complete transcript of this meeting available. You can hear me okay, right? I'm going to be queuing people as best I can by name to speak. I also wish to encourage follow-on comments as best we can accommodate them. Please keep the focus here. If you'd turn your cell phones on silent mode, limit the sidebar conversations, and make sure to turn on your microphone as you speak, that will make it easier. Finally, if you could try to make sure your comments are focused and concise, share the air time, then we'll be even more efficient today. That's the overview. I'm hearing an echo. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 9 MR. ANDERSON: What if we turned off all of the microphones that are not being used. Would that help? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's a good idea. MS. LAM: Okay. Do you want to turn

-

- this one off? The volume off? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Ben needs to hear. That one needs to be off and these need to be active. MS. LAM: Okay. I just turned that off. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You just turned that off? MS. LAM: Yes. I muted that, I mean. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Which one did you turn off? MS. LAM: I muted it so they can't hear us on the Webcam. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What did you mute? MS. LAM: I muted the organizer's so 

### Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 that they can't hear the microphone.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This is Page 10

an opportunity for you to look at your slides. I read through these yesterday. I thought these were pretty good. I thought these were pretty well described. Maybe while we're waiting, maybe we could -- well, we should wait for our substantive element. We really should. MR. ANDERSON: Should we get started? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: They can't hear us on the Web yet. Right? Can you send a message to someone and ask if they can hear? She promised me she had tested this yesterday. MS. LAM: I had. I had done it. I'm
so sorry. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's do this. I've concluded the agenda review. You can see in your agenda there's space for brief introductory remarks and comments/issues of key Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 11 concern to those that would wish to comment. So let's do that round. Then we'll launch into the substance with Wes. Comments here at the outset; anybody wishing to raise any issues that are either in the scope here or not included? Nothing additional. Okay. Then Wes, let's begin. MR. ANDERSON: Good morning. Again, my name is Wes Anderson with the Department of Energy. This is just an overview of what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about standby and off mode test procedures for microwave ovens. We'll seek comments from you, the participants, on the proposed test procedure, discuss the issues, and answer some of your questions related to our proposal. We'll also discuss the next steps for the standby power rulemaking. And at the end of that discussion, we'll discuss steps to initiate Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 12 the new active mode test procedure rulemaking for microwave ovens. This is an SNOPR. As Doug mentioned, we are doing the SNOPR. NOPR preceded this. I'll explain why we're doing SNOPR. The NOPR was issued in October 1, 2008. We issued the SNOPR on July 22 of this year for the public meeting today. The comment period ended October 4. Transcripts and oral comments will be available online. DOE will consider all comments, however. The final rule publication with the EPCA, as amended by the EISA 2007, DOE is required to publish final rule addressing standby and off mode energy consumption with the test procedure for microwave ovens by March 31, 2011. That's the reason we are here today, to talk about that. Overview and issues. Products covered by the test procedure changes, effective dates. We'll talk about the measures and metrics. We'll incorporate reference of IEC Standard 62301, and we'll explain that for measuring standby and off Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 13 mode power. We will go over definitions for active, standby, and off mode for microwaves, and go over specifications for the test procedure and measurements for off mode and standby, and talk about compliance with other EPCA requirements. The regulatory history; I'll go through this pretty quickly. It's in your packet and it was printed in the Federal Register. The whole purpose was started when EPCA set forth the criteria and procedures for DOE adoption and amendments for test procedures of the covered products. Historically, it's been placed in Appendix I subpart B of Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations. The test procedure was a part of an October 3, 1997 final rule. It also revised the test procedure for other cooking products to measure their efficiency and energy use more accurately. It also incorporated reference of IEC Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 14 Standard 705-1998 Amendment 2-1993. But it did not address standby and off mode. Thus EISA 2007, where it directs to incorporate measures of standby and off mode energy consumption into the microwave test procedure by March of next year. The microwave oven test procedure Notice of Proposed Rulemaking was issued, as I said earlier, in October 2008, referred to as the October 2008 Test Procedure NOPR, where DOE proposed incorporated provisions from IEC 62301 into the active mode test procedure, as well as the language to clarify any application of these provisions for the measurement of standby and off mode. Interested parties commented on, among other things, the harmonization of mode definitions and testing procedures with the rest of the world, in particular considering IEC 62301 Second Edition. After October 2008, the test procedure NOPR decided to allow for consideration of the IEC Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 15 62301, which was expected to publish about a year ago. Based on review of drafts of the updated IEC Standard, the revisions could include different mode definitions. DOE later received information that IEC Standard 62301 Second Edition is not expected to publish until late 2010. But EPCA requires DOE to establish test procedures for standby and off mode by March 31, 2011. DOE is conducting current energy conservation standard rulemaking for standby and off mode energy use. As a result, we're going to consider in this SNOPR the IEC Standard 62301 Committee Draft Vote -- we're going to call it the IEC Standard 62301 CDV for short -- since the Final Draft International Standard was issued. At the end of the discussion, we will also talk -- well, we did repeal the regulatory provision for the microwave oven cooking efficiency. We repealed the regulatory provision for the active mode on July 22, 2010. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 16 We determined that the microwave oven test procedure provisions to measure cooking efficiency did not produce accurate and repeatable test results, unaware of any test procedures that have been developed that address these concerns with DOE microwave oven cooking efficiency test procedure. DOE will publish a notice for the workshop today, and discuss at the end of the active mode and standby discussion a separate rulemaking process to establish new provisions for microwave oven energy efficiency active mode. Now I will hand over the mic to Judith Reich. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's just pause right there. How are we doing with this? MS. LAM: We're still getting very loud feedback. Can we turn this down? If we could put a speaker right up here like a conference call so they can hear Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 17 everything that's going on? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Kevin, please say your name for the record?
MR. MESSNER: Kevin Messner with AHAM.

talking today, Just on that last slide when you were about published notice of a workshop a notice came out today about a new workshop on active mode or you're talking about it was published that today's meeting would happen? MR. ANDERSON: It was published that we will discuss the active mode. We repealed the active mode prior. MR. MESSNER: Right. Okay. So nothing new happened today, nothing was published today? MR. ANDERSON: No. Nothing was published today. I misspoke. I'm sorry. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. MR. ANDERSON: Do you want to take a coffee break or something? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How many of you would like to go get coffee? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 18 Not enough.

MR. ANDERSON: Or tea? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's proceed. Judy Reich? MS. REICH: Judy Reich from Navigant. Since I have a bad habit of stepping away from the microphone anyway, it won't matter whether that's on or not. So I'll try and speak loudly. I'll be going through the topics that we've seen already. I want to reiterate that these are the subject of the test procedure SNOPR, Supplemental Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, related specifically to standby and off mode power. There will be a few slides at the end that talk about active mode. Each of these topics were included in the SNOPR because they were the subject of comments that DOE received on the NOPR. Therefore, the SNOPR has focused on these topics. The first one is what exactly are the products that are covered by this test procedure rulemaking. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 19 To start out with, the Code of Federal Regulations at Section 430.2 provides a definition of microwave oven that's very simple. It states that it's a class of kitchen ranges and ovens which is a household cooking appliance consisting of a compartment designed to cook or heat food by means of microwave energy. Back in the October test procedure NOPR, it was proposed that the amendments for standby power should cover all microwave ovens which had microwave energy as the primary source of the heating function. That included microwave ovens by themselves, and microwave ovens that potentially had thermal elements that would be used for a secondary function of grilling or surface browning of the food. It specifically excluded combination ovens, which are ovens that within a single compartment include the capability for cooking with microwave energy and other technologies, particularly convection cooking and possibly Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 20 thermal or halogen elements to heat the food. The other product that was excluded were microwave/conventional ranges. These are products that have a separate compartment for cooking by means of microwave energy and a more conventional oven and cooktop. Those, by the way, are defined separately in DOE's regulations. This particular test procedure focused on the regulatory definition of just microwave ovens. As a side note, here down at the end, DOE had requested in a previous Energy Conservation Standards Rulemaking that covered microwave ovens, data on what the efficiency characteristics of combination ovens are. This was back in November 2007. But DOE did not receive any such information. There were questions raised about those particular products that were included or excluded. In particular, that it was not very clear about whether certain products should or shouldn't be included. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 21 So specifically, clarity was sought on the definition of what a microwave oven and combination oven are. And secondly, whether combination ovens would then be covered by this test procedure. To address this, the first thing that DOE did was to take a look at products that are currently available on the market, looking at all available configurations. That would include countertop and over-the-range units. Also, built-in microwave ovens. Noted that there was only one model out of 129 that were surveyed that only had the thermal elements for grilling, and did not have any convection capability associated with any additional thermal elements. However, a fairly significant number, 16 percent of the units surveyed, were classified or considered as combination units, defining that as a microwave plus a convection system. And secondarily, it could also have additional types of heating systems such as thermal elements. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 22 On the question first there were some concerns about if there's a thermal element only, is that only for surface browning or is that also a primary function. DOE doesn't believe that being very inclusive and saying all microwave ovens that have thermal elements, regardless of what their function are, is going to change the scope of these covered products very much. There's only one such unit out there. Therefore, DOE believes that no further specification about what the function of those thermal elements should be would be necessary to consider that to be a covered product. So with or without thermal elements, a microwave oven would be considered a covered product in this rulemaking. For microwave ovens the proposal is to include them because, on further reading of the regulatory definition, DOE believes that if a microwave oven is capable of cooking or heating the food via the use of microwave energy that it Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 23 falls under the regulatory definition. And that it does not matter whether there is an additional capability for convection cooking. Additionally, our preliminary analysis has shown that the standby and off modes look the same for combination microwave ovens as compared to just conventional microwave only units. So no additional or different amendments to the test procedure to address combination ovens would be
necessary. At this point, we would invite comment on that proposal to clarify the definition in the CFR to cover microwave ovens with or without thermal elements designed for surface browning, as well as combination microwave ovens; that is, microwave ovens that incorporate convection features and possibly other cooking means. We also welcome comment on the proposal that the same test procedures, methods, and calculations be applied to all of these microwave ovens. And also, input whether in fact there Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 24 are additional standby and off modes or other features for any of these types of microwave ovens that would require separate test procedures. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's the one right there. That seems especially salient should you have comments, should you disagree with the Department's preliminary conclusions. Kevin? MR. MESSNER: Kevin Messner with AHAM. We have strong issues, serious issues with this proposal and do not support it. It's overly broad in what it's taking in. It's bringing in other components, thermal or convection, which there's no test procedure for. And how you could deal with it on a repeatable basis, there's questions there. It also has implications -- and this is not dealing with active mode directly here but we'll get to that later today. It has implications on active mode, as well. In that area we have to understand the different product classes or product types that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 25 are going to have to be addressed. For example, there needs to be an understanding or a differentiation between the countertop and the over-the-range microwaves. That's without bringing in these other issues. So going down this path we would not be supportive of. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You would say that the convection element contributes to the energy consumption in a way that distinguishes that activity, and therefore it would need to be addressed in the test procedure? MR. MESSNER: Well, we're not even clear exactly what the definition

-- a clear definition of what these are, a combina tion microwave. And what the test procedure would be to deal with that, how you would incorporate it, and then how you compare that to one without. I mean, these are a lot different. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: At this point AHAM does not have a counter proposal or a remedy Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 26 for the problem you're noting? MR. MESSNER: Yes. Just stick with microwaves and deal with microwaves. Then we have to also, within just that group of just microwaves, have to understand there's differences between the countertop and the over-the-range. That alone will take some -- FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What about the convection feature? MR. MESSNER: No. That's a completely -- that's a different -- FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you have a remedy for that one? MR. MESSNER: No. There's no test procedure, as we'll get into later on, on the active mode issues. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm way out of my depth here. Do you want to respond to any of this, Judy? MS. REICH: Maybe a question. Do your comments apply equally to if Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 27 that covered product definition for standby and off mode power -- if it were limited to that; is it in the context of both standby and active mode or active mode only? MR. MESSNER: I'm not sure. I guess, yes. If I'm understanding you, the answer is yes. Are you asking whether we think an active mode definition should not include these other capabilities as well? MS. REICH: Let me rephrase that a little. Would you object to this definition if it were limited to a standby power test procedure; the definition of a covered product for just standby power purposes, would you still object to that?
MR. MESSNER: Yes. MS. REICH: That it should not include combination ovens? MR. MESSNER: Yes. We oppose it for the standby power. For the reasons I've stated, there's issues there. And then these issues will cascade Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 28 into the active mode problems, as well. So starting here and then doing something different in active mode, I'm having trouble envisioning how that would work. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: As a layperson, I'm having a hard time following what the pathways to the solution are here. Jennifer, go ahead. MS. AMANN: Jennifer Amann, ACEEE. We'd be interested to learn a little bit more, Kevin, maybe about some of the technical reasons why, particularly for standby and off mode, there would be significant differences between the combination/convection products and the regular microwaves. Our position is typically -- and it would apply to this product category, as well -- that we want to have test procedures that can cover a broad range of products. So we're able to test them adequately then make decisions about where we should have coverage when we get to the standards phase, and Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 29 how products might be differentiated in product classes at the standards rulemaking phase. But to not limit coverage of test procedures that really help us determine what the impact of the products are and overall energy consumption. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Before you respond, if you wish to, let me just clarify. Did you say the convection feature doesn't contribute significantly to the energy consumption, and therefore it should be all rolled together as one?
MS. REICH: No. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. MS. REICH: That's not what I stated. The available modes -- at least our preliminary analysis has shown that there are no different modes, not at all addressing what the power levels are in those modes. But that would not require different methodology in the test procedure for combination

ovens. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 30 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. That was clear.
Do Jennifer? Even I got that one. Okay. you want to respond, Kevin, to

MR. MESSNER: Maybe I'll let some other folks get into more of the technicalities of it. But I guess I would just say overall, just because there's a microwave component of a range with a microwave in it, that doesn't make that a microwave. So there's a lot of innovation in this space and there's a lot of differences that are going on here. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You've also noted the different kinds of models; you have raised issues surrounding that. MR. MESSNER: But others may have more technical insights. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Craig, go ahead and say your name. MR. NOLD: Craig Nold, General Electric. I'd like to add to the technical Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 31 discussion requested. The modes by definition, the terminology used such as standby between the two models could be defined as words (standby). But technically, the two units could have -- of course, we don't have clear definition on all the units that are out there today or in the future, which is more important. But there are requirements by the FCC for noise suppression going back into the home lines as the current draw by the unit, being the microwave, increases that technology changes as well. And heating elements are known to draw more current than any of the other technologies in there when they're turned on. So technically, you would have to design your product for calrod implementation. Which would then change other circuitry in the design. I'm not sure if the analysis that was taken included these other requirements by other agencies. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 32 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. That was helpful. Do you want to follow on, Jennifer? MS. AMANN: Jennifer Amann again. I would just reiterate, we're just interested in developing test procedures where we can determine and understand what the energy consumption is of the products. I think these other issues can be handled in determining coverage, scope, or product classes within a standards rulemaking. We're very interested in trying to develop the test procedures that let us understand how the products are performing and what the differences might be between the product types. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wes Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: Wes Anderson with DOE. Is it a product class, what the different products are or the definition of the product class is where your concern is, and then the test procedure that is associated with that? Is that what I'm hearing? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 33 MR. MESSNER: We'll have to get into a little more detail in our written comments. But if you look at some of the other products, these types of -- some of these, going back to the on-the-counter or over-the-range, it would seem maybe a product class. We're going to have to get into exactly what is there. But would that be in the definition? So those are the things that we're trying to look at, too, with microwaves. Is it a definitional distinction or is it a product class distinction? I don't know. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jennifer? MS. CLEARY: Jennifer, also from AHAM. I think one of the main concerns we have here is that this definition will not only apply to standby and off mode. It will also be applicable in the future if an active mode test procedure and standard is developed. So we need to make sure that it's able to cut across both of those, and that we're not Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 34 shortsighted right now in applying the definition only with standby considerations in mind. I think that's why we're seeking a little bit more clarity about exactly what products are or not included. And that one that is overbroad may incorporate too many that will have far- reaching consequences when that active mode is later addressed. MR. ANDERSON: This is Wes with DOE. Sometimes DOE's collective hands may be tied because of what we can address. And if it's future products that are not available, that draws some kind of limitation to where we can go. So is the concern that our definition as it would go forth would impact products that are not on the market yet or expectation of where the technology is going? Is that what you're saying? MS. CLEARY: I think that's part of the concern but it's not the whole concern. I think more the concern is where the standard and Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 -- 18 19 20 21 22 Page 35 the test procedure will go. As I understand it, this definition is the overall definition in the CFR which will apply to the active mode later. So the concern is there, there are significant differences when you measure active mode in particular but also, as Craig was discussing, standby issues. I think we just need to keep in mind that later this will apply to active mode. It could be a slippery slope what products are included, the products that are on the market today that were being discussed; that there will be real differences there. Having everything lumped under one definition may become a problem in the future. MS. REICH: I'd also like to add that

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Judy Reich. MS. REICH: Judy Reich. I'm sure everybody's aware there is a concurrent standards rulemaking for these products. And the issue of product class is addressed in the standards Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 36 rulemaking. DOE examines each defined class individually and may determine that different standards for each class are warranted, or may even determine that certain class standards are not warranted and therefore they would be excluded. So maybe some of those issues would be addressed in the standards context rather than the test procedure context. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Luke? MR. HARMS: I would echo Jen's comments. But I also want to add that an example of the broadness of the definition is a product that uses primarily radiant heat -- a built-in oven, for example -- that also has supplemental microwave technology. We do not believe that should be included in the definition of combination oven. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is that in the current definition? MR. HARMS: This says combination Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 37 microwave ovens capable of cooking or heating food by means of microwave energy. So we believe it could be. MS. REICH: We would certainly, DOE would certainly appreciate any information on how to clarify what determines whether it's primarily a microwave oven versus primarily a radiant unit.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You were thinking that radiant could be included in that definition, Luke? MR. HARMS: We want clarification that it is not. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I think we're working toward it. Any final comments? Kevin, go ahead. MR. MESSNER: Was it your intent that those would not be included; is that the intent in the SNOPR? MS. REICH: No. I'm not drawing any conclusion about that. Just if there is information available, we're -- Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 38 MR. MESSNER: Was the intent that what Luke was talking about would be included or not included; is the SNOPR assuming that those are included or not included in this definition? MS. REICH: The SNOPR assumes that if it is capable of cooking the food by means of microwave energy that it would be a covered product. MR. MESSNER: So it would be included, what you're describing? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If there was both microwave and radiant? MR. MESSNER: Which is what he was saying. That would be included in this under this assumption? MS. REICH: There was no attempt to qualify whether the microwave was the primary energy or the secondary.
MR. MESSNER: Okay.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. More to be done on this. I'm going to ask Judy to proceed and Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 39 keep going. MS. REICH: Okay. The next topic is when does the test procedure become effective. The EISA amendments to EPCA, as Wes mentioned, require that the test procedure amendments, if warranted, to incorporate standby and off mode power would occur by March 31, 2011. Back in 2008 when DOE was considering standards for microwave ovens, it subsequently published a final rule that just covered active mode for microwave ovens. DOE determined, based on input from various interested parties, that it was appropriate to wait and consider the fact that the IEC International Standard for Standby Power 62301 was in the process of being updated. There was a second edition that was anticipated in July 2009 at that time. So DOE decided to separate microwave oven standby power standards in order to consider this newly revised version. That, of course, would require an update to the test procedure to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 40 also consider the revised 62301. However, shortly after that decision was made it became clear that the IEC process was going to take a little longer than anticipated. The information on the second edition was not going to be available until late 2010. Let me be more clear; the second edition would not issue until late 2010. What DOE decided was to consider language from the most current drafts of that second edition in the context of the test procedure. And therefore, publish the supplemental NOPR considering very narrowly just mode definitions from what, at the time the SNOPR was prepared, was the most recent draft version, the Committee Draft Vote for CDV. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do we have any questions or comments? I've been asked -- apparently the Web link is working. However, it's going to be easier for them to hear you with us not having an echo if Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 41 you get close to the microphone. Wayne, please? MR. MORRIS: Thank you. Wayne Morris with AHAM. I serve in one of my capacities as the Chairman of the US Technical Advisory Committee to the IEC 62301. Sort of like a broken record, Judy, I'm sorry. But again, I'm here apologizing for how long this is taking to get the Final Draft International Standard out. We have had some problems with some editorial issues that really are not substantive, but unfortunately they have caused us a delay in getting that out of the central office at the IEC. I'm sending emails now every day asking when this is going to be coming out. The differences between the CDV and the FDIS -- as it is presently written and has been turned in to the central office for its editorial nature for sort of aligning paragraphs. And for also doing the French translation, which is necessary in order to actually come out with an Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 42 actual FDIS. They ran into some problems because apparently there were some French words that don't match up with English words in some of the technical language. We've been back and forth with some email traffic on that one, but I think that's all settled now. The modes and the definitions, as you probably know, in the CDV and in the FDIS are essentially the same. The real primary difference in the FDIS and what has taken a lot longer than we thought are in the actual testing mechanisms. In particular, there were concerns expressed by a number of governmental bodies with the CDV as it originally stood that as you're beginning now to get down into very, very small numbers of watts, microwatts or milliwatts of energy, that may make the difference between somebody passing and failing when you begin to write a standard along that line. The other situation is now we have enforcement and other activities going on by both Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 43 ENERGY STAR and by the Department of Energy. It's very critical that the measurements taken in one laboratory and the measurements taken in another are absolutely the same. The feeling, though, of the Committee was that in the CDV it was not clear in terms of some of the test equipment that was being used. Particularly, some of the methodologies that were in there were not spelled out in a clear enough manner to make sure that all the testing would be done absolutely the same. There was the possibility of some tolerance differences that, as you now get down into very, very small numbers of milliwatts of energy, these tolerance differences would overlap and create problems. That's what has led to a real significant rewrite in the FDIS. In fact, the CDV, which is the Committee Draft Vote on the second edition that was taken last autumn of 2009 -- if it actually passed. There were sufficient numbers of votes that approved it that it could have gone forward. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 44 However, the Committee pulled back and said, "We see the points that are being raised. We want to be able to address those and put in language that will help with the measurement." So that's the section that really has been rewritten. The mode definitions don't cause a problem, I don't think, if you use them out of the CDV as the Department has suggested. I do think that the FDIS version is going to be out, I believe really seriously, within 30 days. Because they're really down to now just dotting I's and crossing T's, and putting paragraph numbers in alignment to get this out, but understanding that the Department has to move on forward and you have a date to be able to do this. The FDIS will have to go out for a vote. It will be a vote. But having passed at the CDV stage, I certainly don't believe there's any concern that the FDIS will fail to garner its necessary number of votes. The concern I think, and I know Jen Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 45 will address this, is in terms of the effective date of the standard. I'll let her speak to that situation. I agree with you, Judy, that the mode definitions that are in the section of the CDV and in the FDIS are not going to vary. I mean, there's a couple references in there. There are some references to the annexes and that kind of thing. I don't think it's going to make any difference really at all. I think that it can move forward using the definitions that are in the CDV. Particularly for the modes of operation which are, I think, really the crux of the issue in terms of defining this as we go forward in 62301. Thank you. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The Committee Draft you expect unless something really odd happens will be very, very similar to the final?
MR. MORRIS: Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Judy, do you want to follow on? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 46 MS. REICH: Yes. We certainly acknowledge the different methodologies. I understand from a technical standpoint the rational for making those changes. This is an issue that was recognized early in the rulemaking
process. The determination was that DOE has a statutory obligation under EPCA to consider the most recent version of 62301. And until such time as it is actually a final version, if it was going to incorporate sections it had to incorporate them from the first edition. It's a case of close timing. And that specifically, because of the objections raised very narrowly on the mode definitions, DOE could consider the language from the draft versions but not incorporating those by reference. Maybe that's more of a little bit of background on why, as we go through this, we'll see that the clauses that are proposed to be incorporated are coming from the first edition. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 47 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne?

MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris again, AHAM. We understand the Department's need in that situation. But in every other governmental body I've seen having to do with IEC standards, once a standard reaches an FDIS, all the other governments that we've ever been involved with have been able to reference an FDIS. That's considered standard practice to reference an FDIS version while you're waiting for it move through the last phases. The only reason anyone can object to an FDIS version is if somebody feels that the translation between English and French is not acceptable, or if they feel that there's a typographical error. They cannot vote no on substance. That is only done in the CDV vote stage. All that means is if they vote no, they have to just clean it up. And then they go right back out again. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 48 So I'm understanding what you're saying. But unfortunately, there are huge differences between the first edition and the second edition in terms of the definitions and the modes. I think in order to be up to date, it's very important that the Department use the second edition even if it's only in an FDIS stage. I think it's extremely important that we stay with that because those are the most important. There's also more harmonization between what is being done in Europe with their definitions. They're considering standards on microwave ovens. So are other governmental bodies in Asia and other places. A microwave oven is probably the closest thing you will come to in major appliances to a universal product. It is not built for one continent or one country. Manufacturers of microwave ovens essentially build them for worldwide distribution. They become almost ubiquitous and generic. So Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 49 it's extremely important that the manufacturers have the ability to build one microwave for distribution everywhere. In terms of standby, they're going to use 62301, the FDIS, until such time as the final version comes out. In begging the indulgence of the Department and their policy, I think it's important that we recognize it is acceptable to use an FDIS. Hopefully, that will be out soon enough that it can be incorporated into the language of the test procedure. Thanks. MS. KOHL: Judy, I'm sorry. I don't want to belabor this. This is Betsy Kohl from
DOE. The mode definitions in this SNOPR were using the ones from the CDV?
MS. REICH: Yes. MS. KOHL: But the things that we're incorporating by reference, they're not implicated by the SNOPR that we're talking about today, those Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 50 first edition? MS. REICH: There are a few clauses that are newly proposed for the SNOPR. MS. KOHL: Okay. The one problem that we have with it, the FDIS as I understand it is not yet publicly available. Which is a problem for the public to be able to see what we're using to regulate them. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Might we say that -- these details are important. The Department and others have statutory and process obligations to follow. Might the Department say that they have an intention to do the best they can given their limitations in working to adopt what the Committee Draft -- can you make a representation that doesn't get you in trouble? MS. KOHL: We'll do our best. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Use the microphone. MR. ANDERSON: Yes. The Department will try to use the most legally available. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 51 Because like I said before, we have certain statutory requirements that we have to live by. There's also the public availability of certain documents that need to be reviewed if we choose to go in that direction. If we don't have that as a reference, it's problematic. So we urge you to speed along whatever process you have to do and get those French guys in order. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. I don't think you were finished with this segment.
MS. REICH: Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Judy Reich. MS. REICH: Judy Reich, quickly going through some of the nuts and bolts of the procedural issues. An amended test procedure would be considered effective 30 days after the final rule is published in the Federal Register, at which point it becomes codified in the CFR. But in terms of when manufacturers actually need to use it, i.e. the compliance date, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 52 manufacturers would not be required to use the standby and off mode provisions to demonstrate compliance with any standby power standards for microwave ovens until such time that the standards -- the compliance date of the standards, which is usually 3 years after the publication of that final rule. However, 180 days after the test procedure is published, if a manufacturer makes any representations about the standby power off mode energy use of the product, it would need to be based upon those provisions in the amended test procedure. Actually, this slide provides some information about what was touched on previously about international harmonization. A number of comments were received in response to the test procedure NOPR that the effective date of the test procedure and standards should harmonize with the 2013 effective date for multiple countries that are implementing a one watt standard. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 53 That was taken into consideration when DOE decided to go ahead and look at the language in the draft version of the second edition, so that both the methodology and the effective date are harmonized, to the extent that DOE is able to under these statutory limitations, with some of these international standby power standards. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's see if there are additional comments on the effective date. Jennifer, did you have an additional issue related to effective date? Wayne said you did. MS. CLEARY: I guess I was just wondering if you had any indication when that effective date would be. I'm guessing no. But it's worth the question. MS. REICH: Again, it's typically 3 years from the date that the final rule of the standards publish. It's an ongoing rulemaking. MS. CLEARY: Thank you. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other comments Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 54 before we move on to the next section? MS. REICH: Okay. Measures of energy consumption. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are they able to hear us? Okay. I guess it's working. Good. Thank you. MS. REICH: As Wes noted, the active mode provisions have been repealed from the test procedure. But I'm going to step back and talk about initially what was done. Historically, there have been several measures of active mode energy use for microwave ovens. Namely cooking efficiency and energy factor, which were defined actually for all cooking products. For some those are different. It turns out for microwave ovens those were the equivalent. And in annual energy consumption. In the previous rulemakings looking at microwave oven standards, it was energy factor that was metric which was used for the analysis. The test procedure right now does not include Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 55 measures of standby and off mode energy use that would be required under EISA. So the October 2008 NOPR was looking at specifically for the test procedure whether standby and off mode energy use could be rolled into a combined metric using the energy factor. DOE determined that it was technically infeasible to combine those two because of inherent problems with the energy factor measurement. Specifically, the variability in measurements from test to test. And that by either putting those into energy factor or into an annual energy consumption, which would rely upon the same measurement methodology, you are combining something that wasn't meaningful with your standby power measurement. The result, the combined metric, would not be meaningful itself. Therefore it would not be technically feasible. I guess it's worthwhile at this point to state specifically what the language in the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 56 EISA amendments to EPCA are about, integrating these metrics in the test procedure. It states that they must be integrated unless it's determined that either the current test procedure fully accounts for standby and off mode energy use, or it's technically infeasible to come up with a test procedure that integrates them. In which case, if it's technically feasible to define a separate standby and off mode metric, that would be required as well. At this point, because the active mode repeal final rule has already published, the test procedure doesn't currently address that active mode energy use. Therefore, the requirement for an integrated metric doesn't apply. As new active mode methodology is potentially developed, DOE would consider the statutory requirement and see if it would be feasible to define an integrated metric. Here is a little bit of the background and reasoning on why the active mode provisions Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 57 were repealed. In analysis that was performed for the standards rulemaking, testing and evaluation showed specific limitations of the existing methodology. In particular, it was based upon heating a water load for a short period of time. That was found to be not representative of actual food loads. So DOE considered whether methodology could be revised to be based upon a more representative food load. DOE believes that's not feasible at this time because it's not clear what a representative food load would be. And would require some significant additional analysis and input to understand how to define that, and how to ensure that that load is going to produce representative and consistent results from test to test and from laboratory to laboratory. DOE isn't aware of any other test procedures that have been developed that address these concerns. Nor is it aware of any research or data on consumer usage to know what a Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 58 representative food load would be, and how that could be used to determine an energy factor or some other energy use metric. For those reasons, at this time in the SNOPR the amendments are focusing only on standby mode and off mode energies. We'll talk about this, I guess, in more detail when we get to the end of the presentation where we're talking about the initiation of an active mode rulemaking. But at this point we'd also invite comments on any test procedures or methods that do address the active mode in microwave ovens. And on some of the issues I mentioned: repeatability and consistency, what a representative food load actually would be, and how that could be incorporated into an energy efficiency metric. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Kevin Messner? MR. MESSNER: This is Kevin with AHAM. We're not aware either of any test procedure or food load that could be used. As always, we'll work with DOE to try to work that out. But we're Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 59 not aware of any right now. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Would this be a new effort for you all? MR. MESSNER: Yes. We're not aware of any test procedures out there at all that gets at the repeatability and the representative food loads. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Other
comments? Wayne? MR. MORRIS: I just have a question, actually. This relates back then to the comments that you had, Judy, on the effective date. It says in there on that slide previously that 180 days from the time that it becomes effective, any manufacturer would have to make representations based on this particular test procedure? MS. REICH: If they made representations they would need to be based on the test procedure. Yes. MR. MORRIS: Okay. So a manufacturer Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 60 places on its retail carton the wattage of the microwave oven, that's a representation of energy. It would not be in keeping with this particular test procedure. MS. REICH: Representations as to standby power and off mode energy use. MR. MORRIS: Will it be stated just that in the final rule? MS. REICH: I believe it is. Yes. MR. MORRIS: That's the only -- MS. REICH: I think in the proposed regulatory text it specifically qualifies it as standby.
MR. MORRIS: Standby or standby and off mode?
MS. REICH: Standby and off mode.
Yes. MR. MORRIS: So any representation of standby or off mode would have to be according to this test procedure within 180 days?
MS. REICH: Yes. MR. MORRIS: But it would not apply to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 61 a wattage rating of a microwave oven, the energy consumed in active mode, or anything along that line?
MS. REICH: No. MR. MORRIS: Okay. We would urge the Department to make that very, very clear in the final rule. Thank you. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, Wayne. Other comments on this section? Craig? MR. NOLD: Craig Nold, General Electric. I'd like to add as we're talking about trying to determine a representative food load for the microwave, earlier we had discussed the possibility of inclusion of alternative technologies. To talk a little bit further about representative food loads, with the inclusion of those, this becomes even more difficult, more challenging, and possibly impossible. Something to consider. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 62 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We're going to press on, then. MS. REICH: Okay. The next topic is incorporation by reference of certain clauses from IEC 62301 First Edition for measuring standby mode and off mode power in microwave ovens. In the December 2008 NOPR -- I think that was the October 2008 NOPR -- DOE proposed to incorporate certain clauses from the first edition for measuring both standby mode and off mode
power. In particular, Section 4 which applies to various test conditions, certain specifications for the supply voltage, frequency, and waveform were proposed to be incorporated. In particular, the voltage and frequency are 120 volts and 60 hertz, plus or minus 1 percent. That's the proposal. There is a tolerance on the waveform. The harmonic content must be less than 2 percent. In terms of the ambient room temperature, it's actually a fairly broad range Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 63 that's allowable. It's 23.5 degrees C, plus or minus 5 C, I think. Then there are also certain tolerances on accuracies of resolutions associated with the power measurement equipment that would be used for measuring standby and off mode power. In the NOPR it was also proposed to incorporate certain clauses that relate to the measurement procedure itself. In particular, one of the paragraphs in Section 5 clarifies, for units that have a short duration higher power state before it drops down to a lower power state, sufficient time should be allowed for the product to drop to the lower power state before making the measurement. It also provides instructions for how to measure the standby power and off mode power. When the power measurement is either stable or unstable -- and I want to be very clear that that's not relating to the input power to the device, the supply power. It is the power consumed by the unit, for example, as a clock Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 64 display is cycling. In the case of it being unstable, it varies by a certain amount over the measurement period by more than that amount. If there is some sort of cyclic operating cycle, the methodology requires that at least one full cycle is measured. It can be more complete cycles than that but at least one full cycle. I think we've sort of talked about this extensively. But just to reiterate, because the second edition has not been finalized, for the purposes of EISA the first edition clauses are what DOE is considering. What is proposed now in the SNOPR does not change those clauses that were proposed in the NOPR. Those proposals are being retained. What is being done is some additional paragraphs are proposed in the SNOPR to be included. This was based on comments that DOE received in response to the NOPR. For example, DOE received some Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 65 comments that it was unclear what the test setup -- how the product should be initially configured at the start of the test. Paragraph 5.2 provides some clarification on how the microwave oven should be set up prior to the start of the test. In particular, it states that it should be tested at the factory or default settings. And that where there are no such indications, it would be tested as supplied. DOE believes that doing so provides some guidance on how to conduct the test that would be most representative of how consumers use it. They may typically use it as it comes straight out of the box. It would also ensure consistency from test to test. For those reasons, DOE is proposing to incorporate by reference these instructions. Additional comments were received regarding the accuracy of the equipment supplying the power to the unit and that DOE should incorporate those. DOE agrees and believes that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 66 IEC 62301 is pretty good methodology. It's robust and it's recognized broadly as being suitable for making these kinds of measurements. Therefore Paragraph 4.3, which relates to the accuracy of the test equipment, would be proposed to be incorporated by reference as well. Any comments would be appreciated on the adequacy of 62301 First Edition to measure standby power and off mode power in general, and on the suitability of incorporating those specific provisions. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jennifer? MS. CLEARY: This is Jennifer. I think we would reiterate the comments that -- FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Can you get a little closer to the mic?
MS. CLEARY: Sure. We'd reiterate the comments that Wayne made a little bit earlier in our previous discussion regarding the FDIS version and etcetera. But we do support the adoption of these additional clauses. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 67 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. That's helpful. Other comments on this subject? Okay. MS. REICH: Judy Reich again. Definitions of active mode, standby mode, and off mode. Here is where we deviate from incorporating provisions from First Edition 62301. I'll give you some background. For the October 2008 Test Procedure NOPR, DOE had proposed to use the statutory definitions provided by EISA that are now incorporated into EPCA, the definitions for active mode, standby mode, and off mode. EISA does provide the ability for DOE to consider other definitions. For the reasons that we've already talked about, namely that comments were received about wanting to harmonize these mode definitions and that there were new definitions becoming available with the second edition, DOE decided to consider those definitions from what at the time Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 68 was the most recent draft version, the CDV. These don't really change the EPCA definitions, but they expand upon them. They provide some extra guidance as to what functions are associated with each mode. Therefore, DOE is proposing mode definitions based on the CDV. As Wayne commented, the FDIS does not substantively change those definitions. We are aware that this is coming out shortly and there are editorial type differences in wording, but they are substantively the same definitions. Let me talk about specifically what those definitions are. For standby mode, it's any product mode where it's connected to the power source and offers one or more of the following functions. What is key that is different from the EPCA definition is it adds that these functions may persist for an indefinite time. You see that one is to facilitate activating other modes. Examples include a remote Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 69 switch, an internal sensor, a timer. Or they may be continuous functions that include information or status displays, which may include clocks or sensor-based functions. Additionally, a clarification that was provided in the CDV is a timer is a continuous clock function that doesn't have to be associated with a display. It may be an internal one that provides regular scheduled tasks and operates on a continuous basis. DOE did receive a comment that the definition should also include that standby power would be measured at the lowest power state selectable by the user. It did not propose to include this statement because it would potentially conflict with the provisions of Paragraph 5.2 that it has to be tested in the factory or default settings. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne Morris? MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris with AHAM. It seems, Judy, as if the Department is sort of lifting certain definitions out, and Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 70 then sort of leaving some other things out as it does. One of them is that in the CDV and in the FDIS version of the second edition, there's an extensive amount of work done in there on network mode. And network mode then translates to a lot of the activities that are going on by both the Department and other people in regard to smart grid, smart appliances, and all of that, which is therefore missing from any reference to this. So it becomes important -- and I think Kevin can speak much better to this than I can -- that the situation being if you use as your definition that standby is not off mode, and it's not active mode, then that leaves in the grey area network mode. What is it? I think that's one of the elements that ends up being missing if you go back to First Edition 62301. The other side of this is that the second edition also deals with the function Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 71 activities and is a super-definition, if you will, before you get into the mode definitions. Paragraph 3.1 deals with function and explain functions. And if you don't do that, the definitions of modes that are lifted out then don't have a context. So that's where I think -- I think we appreciate the fact that the Department is willing to lift out the definitions. But unfortunately, you miss a lot of the section when you just lift a few and not the whole thing. I think that's where we begin to see a problem in developing between the first edition and second edition. I'll let Kevin talk about smart grids. MR. MESSNER: Actually, Wayne, did you want to clarify that last bullet point, too, while you're up there? FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are you talking about on page 34 or 33? MR. MORRIS: I don't know quite where that comes from. Because I thought that our Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 72 position at AHAM had always been that we were agreeing with what the Department has actually ended up at. That is, the standby and off modes should be measured in the factory or default settings. I guess I wasn't aware that at any point AHAM had ever stated that it wanted to use the lowest power state selected by the user. That goes with First Edition. When you change to Second Edition 62301, that becomes a
nonstarter. We've had as our position consistently that we want to move to this factory or default setting, which is where the Department is. We're in agreement with you all. I don't think that we want to set up any disagreement by this last bullet. That may have been at the point in time when the first edition was out. But at any time since the second edition has been considered, we certainly have been more in line with where the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 73 Department is. Thanks.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank
you. Judy?
MS. REICH: I do want to mention network mode. That was a mode that was considered by DOE. It was determined that it would not be addressed in the test procedure, at least at this time, because there are no products available for DOE to determine an appropriate test procedure for. So it wasn't that we neglected it. It was considered. It is not proposed to be addressed because of the fact that there aren't any products available to evaluate. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne Morris, go ahead. MR. MORRIS: That doesn't matter in terms of the definition. I think the issue of the definition -- of having a definition for network Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 74 mode doesn't relay it back to whether you can measure it or not. It's in the basic definition. It says that if you want to know what standby is, standby is when it's not in off mode, it's not in network mode, and it's not in active mode. If you leave out that other element of network mode, then you're precluding the development in the future of having that situation by virtue of the fact that you can't -- you are penalizing manufacturers from going through the technology development in there. Because by the way that you've set up the definition, as soon as somebody comes up with a network mode, if it uses any energy whatsoever then it's captured under this situation. And it isn't excluded. The purpose of smart appliances and smart grid is to save energy. So really, in fact, you would be penalizing manufacturers from having products that would save energy for the country. I think what we're -- it's not Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 75 dependent upon being able to be measured at this point. It's a definition. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wes Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: This is Wes Anderson. I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to do here. But we have to react to what is. That doesn't mean that DOE cannot change in its direction. The whole purpose of -- we're driven by legislation, statute. We will address that issue when it becomes available. But right now DOE doesn't have enough information to make broad-reaching requirements right now. We don't have enough to -- we couldn't defend our position. That's one of the problems here. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Kevin? MR. MESSNER: Kevin Messner with AHAM. Maybe we'll look at this for our written comments, too, to make sure that -- I mean, our key point is the network mode should not be included given that we're talking about smart Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 76 appliances, smart grid, and we're talking a little bit about the innovations that are going to come. But we also don't want to be in a position where the definition of standby down the road is seen to be, oh, here's something that could -- it's a network issue to help make the grid more efficient and save consumers' money -- is somehow then thrust into the standby mode. We will take a closer look to make sure the definition is tight enough. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In your written comments you'll find a way through those definitions to differentiate these functions? MR. MESSNER: Yes. We'll try to see what we can do to see if there's any areas in there that we can help out on.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne, do you have something else to say? No? Okay. Judy?
MS. REICH: Okay. The off mode definition that DOE is proposing in the SNOPR. Again, very similar to what's in EPCA, with a Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 77 little additional clarification. It means a mode where the product is connected to the main power source and is not providing any standby or active mode function. The additional clarification is that it may persist for an indefinite time. Another clarification is an indicator that only shows the user that the product is in the off position would still classify it as operating in off mode. I think this had been an area of question before because it could conceivably be considered a status display. That would have put it back under the classification of standby mode. So I think the idea is that if it is, in fact, in off mode but gives some indication that it's there, it would still be considered operating in off mode. Another question that was raised was what happens if the unit is plugged in, but it is not consuming energy because an on/off switch is there and the switch is in the off position? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 78 Would that be considered disconnected mode or would that be considered off mode? In considering this topic, DOE looked at what was provided for informational purposes within the draft version, CDV of 62301. It first notes that -- this particular appendix states that disconnected mode is included as a mode definition because users remove the product from the main power source for substantial periods of time. In reading that, DOE interpreted that to mean that the condition they're referring to as removed means unplugging from the power source. That same appendix goes on to state that a product can have several off modes, or it may have no off mode. And regardless of how the switch is labeled on the unit, it really depends on what's happening internally as to how that mode would be classified. So although it's not definitive in saying how the presence of the on/off switch should be treated, DOE takes that language to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 79 infer that, having a switch, the unit can operate in either off or standby mode depending on what components remain energized, if any, when the switch is in the off position.
In thinking about all of these statements in total, DOE is proposing in the SNOPR that disconnected mode be assumed only when the power cord is unplugged. And if you have an on/off switch and when it's in the off position you have zero energy consumption. That puts it in an off mode rather than a disconnected mode. I want to emphasize, this is different than what was determined in the previous test procedure NOPR. At that time DOE proposed that it be considered disconnected mode. But by classifying this as an off mode, it would encourage manufacturers to incorporate that kind of feature and provide it as an energy savings means. Finally, DOE proposes to define active mode as a state in which it is connected to the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 80 main power source, has been activated, and provides one or more main functions. And it is clarifying that because delay start mode is a one-off, user-initiated function -- it is short duration; it does not persist for an indefinite time -- it would be associated with the active mode. In coming up with this, this is a topic that DOE considered thoroughly. In the draft version of Second Edition 62301 that preceded the Committee Draft Vote -- it was entitled Committee Draft 2 -- there was languagethat clarified that delay start mode is this oneoff, user-initiated, short duration function associated with active mode. When the Committee Draft Vote was issued, it removed that clarification. And it did so on the basis of comments that it received from various parties on the Committee Draft 2. But in the summary of its responses to those comments, the IEC did acknowledge that delay start mode is a one-off function of limited Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 81 duration. Based on that response, DOE concluded that the suggestion was IEC does not consider it part of standby mode, even though the CDV doesn't state conclusively whether it would be part of active mode. In sum, based on those and in further review, DOE is proposing to consider delay start as part of active mode because of the reasons we've already mentioned. Obviously, the functions that you would normally associate with a microwave oven, cooking or warming of the food -- those would be considered active mode functions also. This is certainly an area that DOE would like to hear comments on, these definitions of the three modes based on the language, again, of what was current at the time that the SNOPR was prepared, the CDV recognizing that they have not substantially changed in the FDIS. Also, it seeks comment on specific functions that would be associated with each of Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 82 those modes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne Morris? MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris with AHAM. The Committee did consider this issue of delay
start. What was decided is that this is more of a regulatory issue than a testing issue. Therefore it was decided to leave out any particular direction on this, and allow individual regulatory agencies to see it as they choose. I think the Department has chosen to see delay start as part of the active mode, and that's the direction that you've taken. I'll let my colleagues discuss it. But I want to let you know that it was discussed. Particularly, this became relevant with the standby regulatory action in the EU under the EUP directives. There they have viewed it in the same manner that the Department is proposing, to see it as an active mode. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other comments on delay start and Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 83 other issues related to active mode? Craig? MR. NOLD: Craig Nold, General Electric. In the definition of modes under on/off switch, if I read the recommendations here I would look at them in the context of a product that's on a 120-volt system. I was wondering if there were any studies or conversations in the past around a system that might be a 240-volt system where you have multiple energy feeds but one switch in the circuitry?
MS. REICH: You know, we' re aware that there are some combination ovens that are 240-volt. This gets back to our initial considerations that we didn't identify any other standby modes or any other means that needed to be measured for combination ovens, but would like information if there are modes like that that we aren't aware of. MR. NOLD: Was there discussion around Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 84 that, though, that I could review? Or are you saying there was no discussion around that in the past? MS. REICH: Not in the past. This is a newly considered product for the SNOPR. In the context of the standards rulemaking, this is a product that's being investigated currently.
MR. MESSNER: Thank you. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: At the time you did this work on the test procedure, you didn't have any products that met that definition? MS. REICH: Right. Prior to the publication of the SNOPR. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank
you. MR. ANDERSON: This is Wes with DOE. However, it would be nice if you have any information to supply that to help us in going forward. MR. MESSNER: At this moment I do not or I would share it. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 85 MR. ANDERSON: All right.

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other comments on this segment? MS. REICH: The section may get into some depth. I might recommend a break. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's take a break. We've made really good progress and it's now 10:45. For those of you that are listening in on the Webinar, we are pleased to have you. I think it's been stop and start and echo-y. Hopefully you can still hear us. Let's take a 15-minute break. We'll resume at 11:00. Thanks to all of you, we have a really good start on the day. We'll see you back here at 11:00. (Whereupon, at 10:46 a.m. off the record until 11:02 a.m.) FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We're going to resume. Welcome back. We are ahead of schedule. If we keep going at our current pace, we should Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 86 finish maybe not by noon but maybe by, say, 12:30 or before 1:00 would be my guess. So unless we hit a snag, we'll probably just keep pressing on now until we're finished. We'll see how this develops. Judy? MS. REICH: Okay. Topic 6 is next, which are specifications for test methods and measurements for conducting the standby and off mode testing. Back in the test procedure NOPR, it was noted that IEC 62301 doesn't closely specify how the measurement should be made in cases where the power is not stable. This is the measured power again, not the line power. Section 5.3.2 states if the power varies over a cycle -- and it defines cycle as a regular sequence of power states that occur over several minutes or hours -- the period selected to average power or accumulate energy shall be one or more complete cycles. That's so the average is representative. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 87 In the NOPR, DOE investigated language that could provide a means to make that more clear, and so that it would be an accurate and repeatable measurement. It was recognized that for microwave ovens, an unstable power measurement was most likely to be associated with a clock display in which, depending on the time display, a different number of segments would be energized; and therefore, potentially the power consumption would change. In the US, at least, these are 12-hour clocks. So DOE's testing led it to propose that the measurement could be made with an arbitrary starting time as long as it was conducted over a 12-hour period. It's specified as 12 hours plus or minus 30 seconds. Recognizing that 12 hours may represent a fairly significant test burden, DOE also investigated methods that could produce a representative average power measurement in something less than 12 hours. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 88 Two approaches were considered. The first was a method that was actually looked at first in the standards rulemaking, back when an advanced notice of proposed rulemaking was under
way. This was a technique in which 18 separate measurements were taken. At each data point a different clock time would be set. The idea was that first you have to understand how power consumption and voltage would vary as the clock was cycled through all possible combinations of the segments that would be lit for any time that occurred in that 12-hour window. Then a regression analysis performed to quantify what the impact of number of lit elements were and the effect of was the

variation in voltage on the power consumption. The results are then integrated across the number of minutes that each active element combination -- that is, the number of the lit elements -- is on over the course of all possible times that would be displayed over the 12 hours. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 89 It was determined that the results from this methodology came to within 2 percent of the 12-hour test results. In response to the test procedure NOPR, DOE also received comments that an alternative methodology could be considered in which a single 10-minute window of power consumption is measured. Specifically, with a starting clock time of 3:33. It was based upon the fact that the combination of digits for the times displayed in that 10-minute window just so happened to have the same proportion of time that different segments of numbers are lit as they do during a full 12-hour cycle. I just want to clarify, this is assuming a typical seven-segment typical LED digit display. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This sounds like a brainteaser for physicists or something. MS. REICH: So based on the fact that these different combinations of lit segments occur Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 90 under the same proportion that they do over a 12-hour period, the suggestion is that measuring this average power during the 10- minute period would be comparable to a 12-hour power
measurement. To compare those three methodologies, DOE conducted some limited testing. There was a sample of 11 microwave ovens that have different types of displays. Since the variation in power consumption is different whether it's a liquid crystal display LED or a vacuum fluorescent display, different models were selected that have those different types of displays. The first column shows what the average standby power was, measured using the full 12- hour method. The two sections to the right, the 18-point method and the 10-minute method, compare the results back to the 12-hour technique, assuming that 12 hours is kind of the gold standard of the measurement. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 91 What was found was that the 10-minute method, which DOE believes represents the minimal test burden to manufacturers, produces results that agree with the 12-hour data within 2 percent. So the idea is that it's a pretty darn good proxy. DOE is proposing that for those units where power consumption varies as a function of the clock display, the methodology would be to set the clock time to 3:33 at the end of the 5- minute stabilization period, and then measure over a period of 10 minutes.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Kevin? MR. MESSNER: Kevin Messner with AHAM. You just mentioned the 5-minute stabilization period. I understand the 10 minutes and certainly see what you're doing there. The 5-minute stabilization, you're assuming that sometimes a display could -- if you're doing something with the machine, the display would then change after it hits the stabilization period, so you'd want to test that 10 minutes when it hits that stabilization period? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 92 Is that what with the 5 minutes you were talking about prior to that? MS. REICH: The stabilization period may be for other components -- MR. MESSNER: Right. MS. REICH: -- as well as the display. So there needs to be a period upfront for other things to stabilize. I recognize the issue you're talking about with your action of changing the display time might in fact then, you know, maybe require an additional stabilization period. And if so, maybe the clock could be set to an earlier time, say 10 minutes earlier or 5 minutes earlier, and wait until it hits 3:33. That might be something that we would appreciate comment on if you would advocate that kind of approach. MR. MESSNER: Yes. Definitely. Do you want to add to that? MS. CLEARY: We would advocate that approach. We think it would be more Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 93 representative of actual consumer use. Where when you touch the display the clock gets brighter, for example, that's not the state that it's sitting in normally in the consumer's home. It's sitting when the clock maybe is dimmer, for example. So if you set the clock for 3:33 minus the number of minutes it takes to go back into its low power state, we think that would be more representative. I think exactly what you were saying, we would agree with. MS. REICH: Okay. We would certainly appreciate information on what that secondary stabilization period should be, the length of it. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Kevin? MR. MESSNER: We'll provide more in written comments. I'm not sure whether you could pick a number for every product. It may have to be whatever time it takes for that product to reach Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 94 that stabilization period. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wes Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: Yes, with DOE. Would it then make sense to have a condition instead of a time frame; is that what you're saying? MR. MESSNER: Yes. We'll provide more detail, but yes. The impression of our initial read on that is it would probably have to be a conditions-based thing. For example, the 3:33 minus whatever time it takes for that product to reach its stabilization period. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne Morris? MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris with AHAM. I'd just point out, Judy, that some of that is covered in the FDIS version of 62301 with 5.3.1 on sampling methods. That specifically is meant to deal, that section, with this whole issue of noncyclical loads or activities where the power is not stable over a period of time. The Committee dealt with this in a similar manner. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 95 That's not to say that the methodology you're now proposing is not in keeping with this. But there's finer points to this than just what the digits are on the display, especially in terms of power distribution within the unit and other features that may come on or come off during that time situation. Jennifer mentioned one, which is the display dimming kind of situation. That's going to be covered in this section. So hopefully, we could use the more up-to-date method. Thanks.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yet one more reason why we eagerly await the completion of that work. Okay. MS. REICH: Were there other comments? Okay. Well, a key consideration is of course whether the measurement that is being proposed for unstable power situations is in fact representative. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 96 DOE concluded that both the 18-point and 10- minute approaches do offer the possibility that the microwave oven could be designed to alter its power consumption when it detects conditions that are uniquely associated with the standby power measurement. In other words, for example, the microwave oven could conceivably be programmed to turn off certain power-consuming components such as the cooking sensor, or it could dim the display, only during the times that are known to be associated with the test procedure. For example, during the 18 times that are set for the 18-point measurement or the display period between 3:33 and 3:42. In general, DOE's test procedures are designed to produce a measurement that is consistent with what is deemed to be the average

consumer use. Even though the specific conditions that are specified for the test procedure aren't necessarily representative of how the consumers Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 97 use it, the end result is intended to represent the way an average consumer uses it. The proposed language in the SNOPR is intended to make explicit that DOE has long held that this is the purpose of the test procedure. And that there is a specific mechanism, namely a waiver process, that is mandatory for products for which the test procedure doesn't properly capture the energy use during what would be the typical consumer's usage of it. Looking for comments on that particular point, specifically requiring a petition for waiver to address products that modify their behavior during the specific conditions of the energy test. And seeks comment on whether more specificity should be provided in the test procedure. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jennifer? MS. CLEARY: We certainly agree that circumvention should be avoided and addressed by Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 98 the Department. However, I think we would state that the waiver process, at least as it currently functions, may not be the best way to do it. It's very lengthy and it delays time to market. We would request that if that process is used, it's streamlined so that it can be more efficiently dealt with. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Specifics about ideas on ways it could be streamlined, if you all have ideas on that? MS. CLEARY: At this time we don't. We can consider those for our written comments. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. Other comments? Okay. MS. REICH: Test burden. This is an important consideration. Actually, the following section addresses the EPCA requirement to address it, as well. I want to comment here that the proposed test procedure is not believed to add Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 99 significantly to manufacturer test burden. The number of units that have to be tested to satisfy the regulatory requirements are defined under 10 CFR 430.24(i). DOE believes these are reasonable. Secondly, it believes that the test period, stabilization period, and measurement period that are now being proposed are now very reasonable. The 5-minute stabilization in either a 5- or 10-minute period for measuring standby power is reasonable. And because of this time frame being significantly smaller than the 12 hours, DOE believes that this would allow manufacturers to conduct testing on the production line. Manufacturers that are currently doing that on the production line for quality control purposes would still be able to continue to do that. They would not be required to conduct separate off-line testing. Actually, I'm going to segue directly into the same topic that is a regulatory Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 100 requirement. Statutory, maybe, is the more appropriate word. Section 323(b)(3) requires that any prescribed or amended test procedure shall be reasonably designed to produce test results which measure energy efficiency, energy use, or estimated annual energy cost during a representative average use cycle or period of use. The last part is really the key part that we're talking about now. It shall not be unduly burdensome to conduct. Back in the test procedure NOPR, DOE had tentatively concluded that the proposed amendments would meet this requirement because the standby power and off mode measurements are representative for products where the power consumption is both stable and unstable. Secondly, it would be based upon an international test standard that's widely used and accepted, the IEC 62301. And the test equipment and test conditions specifications that were added would Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 101 not require manufacturers, DOE believes, to make major investments in new facilities or equipment to perform that testing, and would not represent an undue burden to actually perform the tests. Because the amendments are similar for the SNOPR, the proposed amendments and in fact the methodology being proposed for the unstable measurement significantly cuts down on test time,
DOE continues to believe that the proposed amendments in the SNOPR satisfy this EPCA requirement. That concludes the section on the standby power SNOPR. Any comments that people had today at the meeting will captured in a transcript. It will be part of the public record and, as Wes mentioned, will be available on the DOE Web site. We certainly invite additional written comments through the end of the comment period, which is October 4. This provides instructions on how these can be submitted either by email or by hard copy. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 102 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional comments on the proceeding before we move on? MS. REICH: Okay. Moving then into -- FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wes Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: I want to make -- it's very effective if we stay with that process. I do get personal emails sent to me directly because my name and address are on the Web page. But I also get like 150 emails a day. So I just want to make it plain that it would be very helpful to go through this process. It keeps everything in its proper mail slot. I just want to emphasize that. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. Yes, please? MS. WALTNER: Just a question about sending in comments. Do you want comments on active mode separate? I noticed they have a different docket number.
MS. REICH: Yes. MS. WALTNER: Okay. So they should be Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 103 completely separate?
MS. REICH: Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. Jennifer? MS. AMANN: Just a general process question. Is it possible to set up a system where when we email in our comments, we can get an automatic reply that they've been received? Because on a couple of the dockets, there have been some problems and we've been contacted later that the comments weren't received. We'd been talking so they knew we had sent them in. We had to resend them. So if we could get some kind of automatic response to let us know that they were received, that could really ease our minds to make sure we have documentation to show that our comments were in fact received. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Have you ever added that to your written comments? MS. AMANN: I've asked to get a -- I've said, you know, "Can you please respond that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 104 you received this?" But I don't usually get a
response. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Wes? MR. ANDERSON: I can't speak for IT right now. But I really don't know how to respond to that. We'll try. I mean, that's not the normal procedure because sometimes we could get -- some rules get 5,000 emails. And they're sort of the automatically generated same comment kind of thing. That would be impractical for us to respond to each one of those. So that's probably one of the reasons. I would say that if you're concerned it had been not received, I would make a call. Phone calls I can deal with. I don't have that many coming in.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yet. MR. ANDERSON: Yet. Right. I have gotten some very -- anyway, I have gotten some interesting calls. But if you have a real Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 105 concern, just call when you send your email for this situation. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Why don't you include it in your written comments? MR. ANDERSON: Yes. Include that in your written comments. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Say it upfront where they can't miss it. MS. AMANN: There might even be a way to just have it on that email that goes out anytime something is, you know -- you send out a reply. MR. ANDERSON: We're actually changing this process. It will be more web-based, which would have that kind of capability. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. We're moving on to active mode. MS. REICH: Okay. Judith Reich again. For the active mode, as everybody's aware, there was a final rule published at the same time as the standby power microwave oven test procedure SNOPR. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 106 This final rule repealed the active mode provisions within Appendix I for microwave ovens specifically relating to cooking efficiency and energy factor, which had been the previous active mode metrics that have been defined. The reason that was done, again, was that DOE had determined the provisions that had been in place were producing results that were not accurate and repeatable. And because at that time DOE was not aware of other test procedures that could be evaluated for potential amendments to the active mode provisions. Therefore, DOE has repealed them. In that final rule DOE stated it would be considering initiating a new rulemaking to consider whether other active mode measurements could be incorporated into the test procedure. The steps that would be taken for such a rulemaking were, as a result of this public meeting and comments that would be submitted subsequent to this, DOE would consider initiating Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 107 a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that would respond to those comments; culminating, of course, in a final rule. Let me discuss what specifically those previous provisions were based on. They had incorporated portions of what was -- at the time the DOE test procedure was first developed back in 1997. It incorporated portions of what was then the current version of the IEC test standard for measuring performance of microwave ovens. That was IEC Standard 705. That's a typo there. That should be 1988. And Amendment 2 in 1993. Since that time, IEC has declared that standard to be obsolete and has issued a new version, Standard 60705-2006, which also measures the active mode performance of microwave ovens. Previously during the energy conservation standards rulemaking, both DOE and AHAM had evaluated microwave ovens using both the 705 and 60705 methodology. DOE's test sample consisted of 32 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 108 microwave ovens. All of those, I believe, were countertop units. AHAM had tested 21 microwave ovens. What was noted from the results of those tests is that indeed there were significant variability in all of the cooking efficiency test
measurements. And it was difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain what was contributing to the efficiency of any given unit. There were no correlations between measured efficiency and certain design features or construction designs. So DOE was unable to consider how an analysis of standards could be based on either of those methodologies. Specifically, the results from running tests according to IEC 705 and IEC 60705 were compared. Fundamentally, they are very similar. They both involve cooling down a sample of water to 10 degrees C below room temperature, and then operating the microwave oven at full power until the sample comes back to room Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 109 temperature. You record the time that's required and, of course, the power consumption that's required. A specific difference, though, for what was in the DOE test procedure at the time, which was the IEC 705, was that test period and power consumption did not include heating the filament during the magnetron heat-up. It also was noted that it held the tolerances for the ambient temperature and the final temperature that the water had to come to tighter tolerances than what 60705 allows. You can see what the ranges are. They're several degrees C. It's very critical to note that these tolerances are a large percentage, a significant percentage of the temperature difference that you're trying to capture. It's only 10 degrees C temperature rise and it's happening in a period of 10s of second. So very small allowable tolerances and resolutions in your time measurements can create Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 110 very substantial differences/variations in your measurement of the energy factor. Then looking at what has now become the current IEC methodology, 60705, just noting that that energy measurement now does include the power that's being consumed by the magnetron during warm-up. That has a 1 or 2 percent efficiency point effect, which doesn't sound like a lot. But considering that the range of microwave oven efficiencies is very small to begin with -- a low efficiency unit might be 55 percent and a high efficiency one might be only 65 percent - - a variation of a couple of percent in there is significant. The second feature that we noted had great impact for 60705 was that the calculations require rounding off the measured power to the nearest 50 watts and efficiency to the nearest whole number. So when you perform the efficiency energy factor calculations, those have a Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 111 tremendous impact. They can really cause multiple percentage point swings in the measured efficiency. There are some uncertainties also left unclear in 60705. It doesn't provide specific methodology in how to determine the filament heat-up time in the magnetron. There is some additional uncertainty in it doesn't specify what the accuracy should be for your temperature and time measurements. All of these things combined add up to produce a highly variable measurement. This is a little tough, maybe, to interpret because there are two different things that are going on here. This table is looking at the difference between what was measured for IEC 705 and then two calculations based on running 60705. This is running the test methodology exactly as it's required to, which means rounding of the power measurement. Then this is if you don't perform that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 112 rounding, what sort of change occurs test to test. I believe these are all percentage points on efficiency, not percentage of efficiency. Again, a couple of percentage points is very significant. MR. ANDERSON: Judy, given that there's some people on the Web, when you talk about the different columns could you just -- MS. REICH: Describe it a little better? MR. ANDERSON: -- title the columns so they'll know what you're talking about? MS. REICH: Okay. Sure. The first set I was talking about was labeled IEC 705 1988. That's what was in the DOE test procedure to begin with. The second column under Test-to-Test Efficiency Range was labeled Rounded IEC 60705. That shows the greatest variation. What's entitled Raw IEC 60705 were the results that were obtained using the same measured data, but not performing the rounding on the power Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 113 consumption to the nearest 50 watts. What it shows you in the chart on the right-hand side, that compares the impact of the requirements in 60705 to perform the rounding. The purple, lighter bars show what happens if you don't round it. The pinker, higher level bars show what happens when you're forced to round it. These are in terms, again, of percentage points test to test for a given unit. The variation at least tripled from test to test for any specific unit depending on whether you had to perform that rounding calculation. The intent of this is to show the limitations of the existing IEC test procedure. In most cases it was found that the current, or what was current at the time -- the DOE test procedure that was based on the old, obsolete methodology was actually producing more consistent and repeatable results. So that gives some background. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 114 Neither of these it was felt were adequate to be measuring active mode energy use. Because again, a couple of percentage points are still a very significant uncertainty on a potential efficiency measurement that would only vary in a range of maybe 10 percentage points. At this point, those provisions are no longer in the DOE microwave oven test procedure. What we'd like to do is invite input from any party on methodology that's known for other means of measuring active mode energy use. What I've shown in this slide is we're aware that there are other test procedures out there. I think a fair number of them are largely based on 60705, so it's not known whether any of these are going to provide any better techniques. The last bullet point is a question mark if any party is aware of methodology besides what's listed here that could be considered. It's really intended at this point to open up the floor to any thoughts other parties may have. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne Morris? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 115 MR. MORRIS: Thanks. Wayne Morris with AHAM. The appropriate IEC committee that's in charge of 60705 is IEC Technical Committee 59K for Cooking. That's the determiner committee that's responsible for this. They actually will be meeting in Seattle in conjunction with the IEC general meeting in 2 weeks, I believe; 3 weeks. We certainly have representatives on TC 59K. In fact, I believe Tim Brooks from Whirlpool is a representative from AHAM to that committee. And we can convey some of these
comments. But it would be very helpful if the Department could write this down in a way to explain what the deficiencies are more than just the slides on a PowerPoint. Those could be submitted to the committee as a reason to open up what's called a new work provision to try and inform a subcommittee to deal with this. I don't think that if we're finding Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 116 deficiencies, other people won't find the same situation. The Department is ahead of some other countries because I don't believe there's any regulatory actions pending in other countries on energy efficiency of microwave ovens other than for standby power. But that isn't to say that it isn't important. We ought to get it right. It would be important to feed this information back to the Technical Committee and ask them to deal with it very soon. Maybe within a few months or a year or so, they could come back with a revision to this test procedure that would be sort of a universal position that would be taken by all the countries together through the IEC process. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wayne, can you confirm -- these other countries that apparently have enacted test procedures, are they based on 60705? MR. MORRIS: I couldn't tell you. I Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 117 wouldn't know for sure. I mean, we can ask the question, certainly. But I wouldn't know offhand if they are or are not. I would agree with Judy that it's quite likely, considering that countries like Australia, Japan, Korea, and Brazil generally don't have standards that aren't based on IEC. I couldn't speak for China. In some cases, China does write its own standards that are different than the IEC. That is possible. But many of the others up there usually base their performance test methods on IEC wherever possible. The Canadian -- I thought that the C388 was actually identical, essentially, to the DOE old version. They're not using it for anything right now. There are no energy efficiency limits, to my knowledge, on microwave ovens in Canada. But that's a CSA standard. And I would think that if the US were to develop an energy test method for active mode on microwave ovens, we would encourage that it be Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 118 done cooperatively with Canada through a joint action that would involve CSA and also Natural Resources Canada. Because it makes only good sense that anything we do here, we would want to see similar. I think it's important that we feed this information back to the appropriate committee so that they have all of your particular thoughts and responses on this. And give it to them in a manner that says, "This is a problem. We need your help." I doubt seriously if it is something unique to just the United States. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank
you. As Judy said, the Department seeks comment, ideas. We're really opening up here. Yes, Judy? MS. REICH: Before we do that, I also would like to state that there has been a report DOE has put together internally for the results of the analysis that is summarized here. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 119 That could be made available to the committee you're describing. If you let us know what the appropriate means to transmit that is, we can certainly do that -- provide it.
FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Great. Other thoughts? Meg? MS. WALTNER: Can that report be publicly available as well, or just to the committee? MS. REICH: I believe that would be publicly available. Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'm looking and Wes Anderson is nodding his head yes. MR. ANDERSON: Yes. DOE will provide that. I'm just trying to figure out what would be the media. MS. WALTNER: Post it. MR. ANDERSON: Post it on the Web? Okay. We can post it on the Web. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other thoughts, other test procedures that are not listed here, or Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 120 other ideas; anything additional? MS. WALTNER: I'm curious -- this is Meg from NRDC -- did you just test the two test procedures, or did you sort of experiment at all with different modifications to the test procedures when you were collecting that data to see if there were better methods? MS. REICH: I don't believe we strayed far from the methodology of those two tests. But I will also say that we developed techniques to more closely specify things than were included in the test procedure to, again, limit that variability. There were certain things that maybe hadn't been considered in the test procedure that we held more closely, controlled more of the test conditions. And were able to reduce that variability by doing so. But again, one of the fundamental problems is that was able to be done on IEC 705. That test procedure from IEC is obsolete. They don't make it available. It's completely Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 121 unobtainable. So we did not pursue that further. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other thoughts on this? You're going to leave the Department to their own devices? No additional comments. Okay. MR. NOLD: One comment, please. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Craig? MR. NOLD: Craig Nold, General Electric. Earlier you mentioned that DOE had tested 32 microwave ovens and you believe those were all CMOs; then out of those 32, 12 of these are CMOs as well for this study that you performed here? MS. REICH: I think so. I'm not sure I understand the question entirely. But I see James nodding his head, who actually performed the
tests. MR. BATTAGLIA: These 12 are a subset of those 32 countertop microwave ovens. MR. NOLD: They were all CMOs as well? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 122 MR. BATTAGLIA: I'm sorry. What do you mean by CMO? MR. NOLD: Countertop units.
MR. BATTAGLIA: Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That was James Battaglia.

Navigant. MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia,

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Navigant, yes. MR. NOLD: I asked the question because there also needs to be consideration -- due to cavity sizes and design techniques of the cavities, your traditional CMOs do not dump the magnetron energy in the same way as an OTR would. That needs to be taken into consideration. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Kevin? MR. MESSNER: Just to add to that, as we talked about earlier, as you think about active mode test procedures you need to -- it has to -- there is a difference between the countertop microwave ovens and the over-the-ranges. There are differences there, significant differences, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 123 one of which Craig was talking about. There's just the general things that folks think about. There's the venting. There's the lights overhead. They are designed over a range with certainly a lot of different requirements than on a counter. So these two, you can't just think microwaves, countertop, over-the-range, same thing. They're different and they need to be looked at differently. MS. REICH: Okay. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Wes Anderson? MR. ANDERSON: This is Wes. We should also bring that up in the standards portion of the rulemaking. I think that may address the product. It just sounds like you're trying to get a product distinction and that needs to be considered. There are certain legal hurdles there, as well. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: The follow-up question I had was, then does that mean that the test procedure needs to do some sort of structural Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 124 specification differences? that talks about all those

I don't know w hether it does or doesn't. MR. ANDERSON: The measuring, would the measuring be different for the countertop versus over-the-range; or are you saying the energy usage is different, the energy draw is different? MR. MESSNER: This may not be as much detail as you want. Jen, if you have more you can add it. There's differences overall on the appliances. Now, whether or not the measurement -- there's differences that need to be understood and contemplated. You can't just say, "Here's a test procedure for microwaves," and walk away assuming that it's going to make sense for both of these types. There are differences. MR. ANDERSON: We'd appreciate it if you could give us a little clarity as to how that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 125 would affect the test procedure, or how a manufacturer would do a test on their product to determine if it's doing what it's designed to do. I think that would be internal testing that the designers would have to be able to distinguish between that. That kind of information would be helpful to DOE, just from a product difference if there is one. MR. MESSNER: Yes. Certainly we can look to if we can expand on that in the written comments and that type of thing. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, Kevin. Craig, do you have something else? MR. NOLD: Not at this time. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank
you. Additional comments on this section? I think we're pretty much through it, right? MS. REICH: I think so. Yes. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So once again, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 126 the how and where to comment slide. Do you want to add to the -- MS. REICH: I just again note, this is a different rulemaking than the standby power test procedure rulemaking. So it does have a unique docket number and RIN. There is also a different DOE email address to which comments can be sent. FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It's not reflected in the agenda. Typically it's the case that the Department wants to provide yet another comment for any final comments, any additional issues that individuals wish to raise. I want to provide that opportunity now for any final comments as we hand out the evaluation form. Okay. Back to Wes for closing remarks. MR. ANDERSON: I'd like to thank you guys for coming out and expressing your views. It's very important for the Department to understand where the community, that being the manufacturers as well as the people who are Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Page 127 concerned about the environment -- input to help us round out our perspective. If you have any questions, I have some cards here that I will be happy to hand out.

comments.

soon. We're looking forward Thanks for coming out. I'l to l see your you

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. Safe travels. (Whereupon, at 11:53 a.m. the meeting was concluded.)

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### Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433146

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Te s t P r ocedu r e s fo r M i c r owave Oven s Pu b l i c Meet i ng
Before: US Depa r tment of E ne r gy

Date: 09-16-10

Place: Wa s h i ngton, DC

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com