U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

67–683 WASHINGTON : 2000

IMPACT OF BANNING SNOWMOBILES INSIDE

NATIONAL PARKS ON SMALL BUSINESS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE, AND EXPORTS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC

JULY 13, 2000

Serial No. 106–68

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

JAMES M. TALENT, Missouri, Chairman

LARRY COMBEST, Texas

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado

DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey

SUE W. KELLY, New York

STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio

PHIL ENGLISH, Pennsylvania

DAVID M. MCINTOSH, Indiana

RICK HILL, Montana

JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania

MICHAEL P. FORBES, New York

JOHN E. SWEENEY, New York

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania

JIM DEMINT, South Carolina

EDWARD PEASE, Indiana

JOHN THUNE, South Dakota

MARY BONO, California

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York

JUANITA MILLENDER–MCDONALD,

California

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York

BILL PASCRELL, New Jersey

RUBE ́ N HINOJOSA, Texas

DONNA MC CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania

TOM UDALL, New Mexico

DENNIS MOORE, Kansas

STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas

DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington

MARK UDALL, Colorado

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

HARRY KATRICHIS, Chief Counsel

MICHAEL DAY, Minority Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE, AND EXPORTS

DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman

STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio

PHIL ENGLISH, Pennsylvania

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York

RUBE ́ N HINOJOSA, Texas

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California

PHILIP ESKELAND, Senior Professional Staff Member

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on July 13, 2000 ............................................................................... 1

WITNESSES

Stupak, Bart, a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan ........... 2

Peterson, Collin, a Representative in Congress from the State of Minnesota .... 4

Thomas, Craig, a Senator in Congress from the State of Wyoming .................... 10

Collins, Kevin, Legislative Representative, National Parks Conservation Association .................................................................................................................... 13

Abbott, James, President, University of South Dakota ........................................ 15

Seely, Clyde, Owner, Three Bear Lodge and West Yellowstone Conference

Hotel ...................................................................................................................... 17

Stein, Bob, Owner, Alger Falls Motel .................................................................... 18

Lyon, John, Owner, J&J Sport ............................................................................... 20

APPENDIX

Opening statements:

Manzullo, Hon. Donald A. ................................................................................ 32

McCarthy, Carolyn ........................................................................................... 33

Prepared statements:

Stupak, Bart ..................................................................................................... 34

Thomas, Craig ................................................................................................... 36

Collins, Kevin .................................................................................................... 38

Abbott, James ................................................................................................... 46

Seely, Clyde ....................................................................................................... 50

Stein, Bob .......................................................................................................... 68

Lyon, John ......................................................................................................... 70

Gerou, Stan ....................................................................................................... 76

Additional material:

International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association ................................. 78

Department of Interior Press Release ............................................................ 82

Blue Ribbon Coalition, Inc ............................................................................... 102

Letters to Manzullo .......................................................................................... 113

Letters to Thomas ............................................................................................ 158

(1)

THE IMPACT OF BANNING SNOWMOBILES INSIDE NATIONAL PARKS ON SMALL BUSINESS

THURSDAY, JULY 13, 2000

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE AND EXPORTS,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,

Washington, DC.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in room

2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Donald A. Manzullo

[chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.

Chairman MANZULLO. We are going to start our Subcommittee

hearing.

Congressman Stupak is here. Bart, if you want to go up here to

the witness table, we are going to start with you. And then as Senator Craig Thomas may be coming in now, or he will probably come

with the second panel, at which time we will interrupt the testimony of the second panel to accommodate the time of the Senator.

Why is this Subcommittee, and this member in particular, who

represents a medium Rust Belt city in the flat Midwest, concerned

on this hot July day about snowmobiling in our national parks?

The reason is quite simple: there are more than 4 million

snowmobilers in North America, including 58,000 in Illinois. Plus,

snowmobiling contributes over $9.2 billion a year to the U.S. and

Canadian economies and provides 65,000 jobs, mostly in small

businesses.

Many of my constituents are avid snowmobilers who travel great

distances to tour our national parks. Ninety-five percent of

snowmobilers consider it family recreation. They spend an average

of $120 per day. The Department of Interior did not take into account, as required by law, the impact of the proposed snowmobile

ban, upon small businesses, when it made its grandiose press announcement last April in defiance of SBREFA, which we worked

very hard to pass, and which has been totally ignored by this Federal agency. This proposal will hurt a variety of small businesses

in the rural towns adjacent to national parks. In addition, the

snowmobile ban inside national parks has the potential of hurting

small businesses like dozens of snowmobile dealers in northern Illinois, Seward Screw Products in Seward, Illinois, which makes pistons that go into snowmobile brake systems, and Bergstrom Skegs

of Rockford, which manufactures after-market traction and control

products for snowmobiles.

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The purpose of the hearing is to put real, live faces on the small

businesses that would be negatively impacted by such a snowmobile ban. Until the Department of Interior recognizes and deals

with these negative impacts, at the very minimum this ban should

be put on an indefinite hold.

I now yield for an opening statement from my good friend from

New York, which has a tremendous number of snowmobiles and is

also the home to my good friend the ranking minority member,

Mrs. McCarthy

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I used to go to

Vermont almost every single weekend and a lot of times when I

was not skiing, I was snowmobiling also.

Thank you for scheduling this hearing to discuss the economic

impact the national parks ban on snowmobiles will have on local

businesses. I would like to thank Congressman Stupak as well as

our second panel of witnesses for taking time out of their busy

schedule to be here with us this morning. The recent decision by

the National Park Services to ban snowmobiles from national parks

raises some interesting questions.

From an environmental perspective, I believe it is difficult to contest some of the arguments made concerning the pollution from

snowmobiles. It is my understanding that up to one-third of the

fuel delivered to snowmobile engines goes straight through and out

the tailpipe without being burned. Furthermore, lubricating oil is

mixed directly into the fuel and is expelled as part of the exhaust.

Obviously, this is a concern.

However, I am also concerned that the interests of small businesses surrounding national parks were neglected when a decision

was reached to ban snowmobiles from the parks. Moreover, I am

concerned that the decision to completely ban snowmobiles from

national parks is a response of lax enforcement of current laws

dealing with snowmobile use. Environmental protection is a concern for many of us; however, I believe the interests of all affected

parties need to be taken into consideration as well.

Therefore, I look forward to the testimony from our witnesses,

and I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Congresswoman McCarthy.

Mr. Stupak, we are going to enforce the 5-minute rule because we

want to get through here as far as we can before the tyranny of

the bells takes place with multiple votes. It is a privilege to have

you here. The Congressman and I were elected together in 1992.

He represents the northern part of the great State of Michigan, including the Upper Peninsula. Congressman Stupak.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. BART STUPAK, A REPRESENTATIVE

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN

Mr. STUPAK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Congresswoman

McCarthy. Good to see you again.

Let me just summarize my statement. I am actually in a markup. I am going to have to run down there.

But let me—the U.S. Department of the Interior in a quote from

Assistant Secretary Barry when they made the announcement said,

‘‘The time has come for the National Park Service to pull in its welcome mat for recreational snowmobiling. Snowmobiles are noisy,

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antiquated machines that are no longer welcome in our national

parks. The snowmobile industry has had many years to clean up

their act and they haven’t.’’ . That statement there, the arrogant attitude that they have, because I don’t think they ever have been on a snowmobile—they obviously know nothing about the industry. They obviously did not

consult anyone in the industry. They obviously have never been to

northern Michigan. They obviously—really, really I don’t know

about you, Mr. Chairman, but really got me going on this issue because they really have not looked at all at what the industry has

done for many years and if they even knew their own regulations.

At Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, which is one of four parks

in my district, we have restrictions on where snowmobiles can go.

In my district, this park, or ban if you will, would ban

snowmobiling on 10 miles, 10 miles, 10 of the most critical miles,

because it is probably the most beautiful scenery in our district.

There are other parts of that national park where snowmobiles do

not go, like on the dunes that are on Lake Superior. We do not go

on them because snowmobilers are good, conscientious people. They

do not want to do anything to harm the environment. They do not

want to do anything to degrade a national park.

So when the ban came out a number of years ago, based on an

executive order in 1972 and 1977, snowmobilers, the local park people, got together and they said there are certain areas we should

stay off. We do not want to pollute. We do not want to degrade the

environment. We do not want to harm critical, sensitive environmental areas. So the local parks like Pictured Rocks got together

and put forth where they would move their snowmobiles back and

forth and they developed trails. And it has been a great recreational enjoyment for people in my district, people from your district or New York, wherever, who come to my district and snowmobile, and it has been a great activity for everyone.

It has been a huge economic impact for my district. I am pleased

that you have invited two of my constituents, Mr. Gerou and Mr.

Stein, who will testify later. Mr. Gerou could not be here at the last

minute, something came up. But he actually, Stan Gerou actually

owns two motels and a snowmobile trail grooming business in

Munising and he has a contract with Pictured Rocks to groom the

10 miles of trail. To lose that contract I am sure would be devastating economically to him.

[Mr. Gerou’s statement may be found in appendix.]

But even Grant Peterson, the local superintendent of the park,

when we have talked to him, he said I have never, never in all the

time I have been here ever had any problem with snowmobilers.

They do not go out there and rip up the place. They have been very

good about staying on the 10 miles that we restrict them to. They

are not on the dunes. He has never seen any economic or environmental damage done in the Pictured Rocks National Park and he

was beside himself when they made this announcement.

And the announcement just basically said we are going to pull

the welcome mat. They did not explain to the American people that

there are certain parks like Pictured Rocks that have special regulation. You just cannot make an announcement and overrule the

rules and regulations in these 27 special parks. Again, it shows the

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arrogant attitude of the National Park Service for some Assistant

Secretary to just say we are going to ban this without really knowing and following the rule of law. If you want snowmobilers to follow the rule of law, I think we should start with the Park Service

and Mr. Barry, and he should follow the rule of law. So the national parks must first issue a new rule to overturn the special regulations and just cannot simply make an announcement and expect

it to carry the weight of law.

There is a process to follow here and they haven’t followed it.

They have not even published a proposed rule or regulation in the

Federal Register. They have not taken comments. So anything this

Committee can do to block this ill-conceived attitude of the Park

Service we certainly would appreciate it.

I do not blame the local folks. They have worked well with us

this northern Michigan. But you just give some of these folks out

here who, because of pressure from some environmental groups

who have never been probably to northern Michigan and have

never been on a snowmobile, to start saying that they are environmentally destroying the area and they are antiquated machines

and they are pollution, they just really do not understand the situation.

So I appreciate you holding this hearing. I see my time is up and

thank you again.

[Mr. Stupak’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Congressman Stupak, for that

very compelling firsthand testimony.

Our second guest on our first panel, Congressman Collin Peterson, from the State of Minnesota. We have worked together on a

lot of ag issues, especially dairy, where we have learned that milk

is thicker than blood.

Mr. PETERSON. Hope we have a better result on this.

Chairman MANZULLO. Yes. Congressman Peterson, we are trying

to impose the 5-minute rule, please.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. COLLIN PETERSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA

Mr. PETERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really want to thank

you for your leadership and recognizing the aspect of this that

sometimes gets forgotten and holding this hearing on the National

Park Service’s ban on snowmobiles and the impact on small businesses. I appreciate the chance to be here and associate myself

with what I heard of my colleague’s remarks here from Michigan.

I represent the Seventh District of Minnesota, which is the home

of Arctic Cat and Polaris Snowmobiles, but in addition to that I

was one of the few Members of Congress who were a professional

snowmobile race driver back in my younger years before I came to

my senses. It is a great start. And for those of us that are up in

the cold country in the wintertime there is not a whole lot to do.

We can go ice fishing, but that gets boring after a while, and snowmobile riding is one of the great pastimes that we have and we

take offense when people monkey with it.

To say that this industry has an important economic impact on

local communities and small businesses in my district would be a

dramatic understatement. In Minnesota alone the snowmobile inVerDate 11-MAY-2000 08:55 Feb 28, 2001 Jkt 070351 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HEARINGS\67683 pfrm02 PsN: 67683
5

dustry is estimated to generate over a billion dollars of economic

impact. Much of this activity is through small businesses in my district that supply manufacturer parts and service and the nearly

200 small business dealers that sell and service the machines manufactured in my district.

Small businesses such as Automan Engineering, Product Research and Design, Detroit Lakes Manufacturing, Straight River

Manufacturing, and dozens more small machine and welding shops

throughout the Seventh District do business with Arctic Cat and

Polaris. In turn, these small businesses are able to maintain jobs

and generate economic activity within the local communities in my

district.

When I first was elected we had a big shortage of jobs in my district. Now, in a lot of these small communities, the problem is we

can’t find enough people to fill out those jobs and one of the reasons is the tremendous activity within the snowmobile manufacturing area.

The snowmobile industry also means jobs for rural communities

and small businesses because it directly employs about 10,000 people throughout the Snow Belt. Over half these employees are in

Minnesota and most of them in my district. And indirectly job creation is estimated apparently at tens of thousands nationwide.

Snowmobile use generates positive economic activity, as I said,

through machine sales and service, but also tourism. Nationwide,

snowmobilers spend over $9 billion in direct expenditures for the

sport.

In the Seventh District of Minnesota and many other communities across the Snow Belt this direct support is for small businesses. Cafes, motels, resorts, fuel stations and other local businesses receive the benefit of increased economic activity in the wintertime because of this sport.

Often, this additional revenue comes during a time of the year

when the other businesses have been reduced because of obviously

the weather situation. Whether directly through the manufacturers

or indirectly through tourism, the snowmobile industry is a critical

cog in the economic wheel of the Seventh District of Minnesota and

other areas throughout the Snow Belt.

Although rural communities too often are left behind in the recent national economic prosperity and small businesses have struggled to maintain their viability, I am pleased to report that the

snowmobile industry has been a bright spot for the Seventh District and other areas in the Nation because they have provided a

reliable source of economic activity for several of those communities

that I mentioned, and as I said, the unemployment rates remain

very low throughout my district partly because of this industry.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, any activity affecting the health and

well-being of snowmobile demand and use affects my rural communities and small businesses. The proposed snowmobile ban by the

U.S. Park Service is such an action. The Park Service decision to

ban snowmobiles from our national parks in my opinion was totally

arbitrary and without any factual basis. A complete and scientific

review of the environmental impact was not completed before the

proposed action, and I think that this reckless proposal failed to

6

consider the impact that such a ban would have on the workers

and small businesses throughout the United States.

You know, whatever they are trying to accomplish here, if they

really think that this congestion and pollution is a problem, I

would suggest that cars are a much bigger problem than snowmobiles, and if this is what they want to do, what they ought to really

be looking at is banning cars in Yellowstone Park, because that is

doing a lot more damage to Yellowstone Park and these other areas

than snowmobiles are.

So implementing an arbitrary ban on snowmobile use within our

national park would have a devastating impact on small businesses

in north and western Minnesota and the Snow Belt. I think the

other thing that worries us is that this is just the tip of the iceberg

and that the next thing that you are going to see is that they are

going to want to ban snowmobiles in all of the Federal land, Forest

Service land, BLM land, and the next time is going to be ATVs, allterrain vehicles. They are going to want to try to ban those from

those areas. This is bad enough, but I am very, very concerned

about the precedent this would set and the kind of things that

would come in the future which would have even a bigger negative

economic impact.

So thanks for your leadership. We look forward to working with

you.

Chairman MANZULLO. I appreciate that. I have just a couple of

questions to both Members of Congress. Did anybody from the Department of Interior contact you in advance of this ruling coming

out?

Mr. PETERSON. Not me.

Mr. STUPAK. No, Mr. Chairman. In fact, we have an internal document that we were able to obtain from the National Park Service

and what they did, basically they had their own little group that

got together and decided to put forth this ban and they talk about

the meetings they had and who was there. No one was from the

snowmobile industry, no Members of Congress.

Chairman MANZULLO. Could you state who was there? Is it a lot

of people who were there?

Mr. STUPAK. Representatives from the parks. They did not list

every one of them. I will be happy to share this memo with you.

Chairman MANZULLO. Any outside groups besides the parks?

Mr. STUPAK. The Blue Water Network Petition, which is an environmental group associated with 60 other environmental organizations.

Chairman MANZULLO. The environmental organizations were invited to come, but the people actually impacted were not invited to

come to this meeting?

Mr. STUPAK. The way I read it, the recommendations and results

of the 2-day service workshop on snowmobile policy for the National Park Service were held; 55 people from the Department and

National Park Service, including representatives of 33 of the 42 national parks in which snowmobile use occurs, and some other

groups in here. They mostly talked about Yellowstone and Grand

Teton National Parks. It appears from this memo that is where the

emphasis came from and some videotapes on wildlife that they had

7

in these two parks, and from that the conclusion was that we

should ban snowmobile use.

Chairman MANZULLO. I would like to have that document, plus

your testimony, be made a part of the record. Perhaps we should

have a second hearing before the Subcommittee and bring in the

National Park Service and the people who feel that they can make

regulations without talking to the people which are impacted by

them.

Mrs. McCarthy.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,

again, for the testimony. Bart, you and I talked about this a little

bit last night, and you actually had some what you felt would be

solutions or at least how we could work through this. I was wondering if you could share that with us.

Mr. STUPAK. Sure. The snowmobile organizations, throughout the

United States and especially in northern Michigan, if there is a

problem, like say at Pictured Rocks, with snowmobiling, let’s work

with them, work the solution out. Let’s allow the local supervisors

and park personnel to work on any regulations or needs that they

have to work out.

As I said, in Pictured Rocks it is a huge park in my district.

There is only 10 miles that snowmobilers, that the Park Service

agreed they could use. To now pull the rug on those 10 miles, or

the welcome mat if you will, just does not make any sense. So instead of having snowmobilers going where they are welcome in the

national park, so what are you going to do? Say no snowmobiles

are there? How are you going to enforce it? You will not find the

snowmobilers going only on the 10 miles; they will go everywhere,

even over the critical and sensitive areas.

So number one, let the snowmobilers and the people work it out.

Number two, those parks that actually have these rules and regulations, let’s review them. Number three, if there is environmental

damage, put forth the evidence and let’s discuss it with the snowmobile groups. Number four, let’s look at the economic impact to

our communities and our areas before you start making these bans.

That is really part of the purpose and mission of the national

parks. Not only do they have to protect the parks and the national

forests and all of that, but they have to have use and access. And

when you are up in Munising, you get 2 to 300 inches of snow a

year; the only way you are going to have access is basically through

snowmobiles. And if it is restricted to 10 miles, it has worked out

well for us. As I said, Grant Peterson, the local supervisor, had

never had troubles with snowmobilers, no environmental ecological

damage to our park. And for someone in Washington to get together because there is a concern about Yellowstone and the Grand

Tetons to withdraw the whole system is just ludicrous.

Mr. PETERSON. Could I—Arctic Cat has been—is working on new

technology, I think all manufacturers are going to four-stroke engines. That is happening in the outboard engine area as well. And

they, last year, took a big portion of their four-strokes and moved

them into Yellowstone in their concession there. So they have been

moving as fast—actually faster than the agreement was to try to

get ahead of this pollution problem.

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So I think the industry is trying to work on this, but my own

view of what is going on is that this has nothing to do with pollution. These people do not want motorized activity in these parks.

That is what this is about. Except their cars to get there, you

know. But they do not want ATVs. They do not want snowmobiles.

They want—this is a whole different attitude. They want this wilderness experience. We have been fighting this in the Voyageurs

National Park and BWCA in Minnesota for years where they are

trying to ban motor vehicles and snowmobiles and float planes and

everything else.

So that is really at bottom of what is going on with this Blue

Water outfit, whatever their name is. They are a bunch of environmental groups and they are really—they are concerned about pollution, but the bottom thing that they are really after is getting motorized traffic all out of these parks. And eventually it is going to

be BLM land, Forest Service land, and the whole works because

that is what they want.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Following up with that, and I want to go back

to the papers that you had, Bart, as far as—and something that

you said, Congressman Peterson, as far as there was no scientific

proof, no—the impact study hadn’t been done before all of these

regulations came down?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, as I understand what happened in Yellowstone, one of the interesting things is that Yellowstone was exempted from this regulation, as I understand it. So this does not apply

to Yellowstone, which is where the—— Chairman MANZULLO. But as part of the overall scheme to include it.

Mr. PETERSON. Yes, apparently there is a lawsuit going on or

some kind of a deal, whatever it was. Where a lot of this started

when these snowmobiles start up in the parking lot at Yellowstone,

there are 7 or 800 of them and they are idling getting ready to go

for the day and they went in and monitored and did the testing

right there. They did not do it out on the trail.

So you could—again, I think they were setting this thing up to

get the conclusion that they wanted, because they had a different

agenda that they were trying to accomplish. So the way we view

this, there has not been any kind of a scientific look at this that

is fair in our opinion. And what they are doing is they are using

this 1972 executive order to use as the reason, for the basis for

doing this. I don’t know that anybody envisioned in 1972 that this

was going to be what the outcome of that executive order was.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. I would just like to follow up with one thing.

For many years during the summer, my husband and I used to go

fishing. Now, with that obviously we had to go out onto the beach.

We got our permits, we went through all the testing. And for many

years it was just a number of us that fished. We would be on the

shores of the beaches and it was absolutely wonderful.

And then, of course, as word leaked out that more people could

go on the beach, then we saw these younger people, unfortunately,

start doing damage to the dunes. That is when we had the Long

Island Beach Buggy Association. A number of us that were concerned about this started regulating just those that came onto the

beach ourselves because we did not want them to ruin it for us.

9

And I think that is something that unfortunately happens all the

time. And as Bart had said, my concern would be if we closed down

these trails, and you think—certainly I am concerned about the

small businesses that are in the area, you are going to have your

snowmobilers go out there and they are going to find their ways

because, you know, they go out at night. We certainly did. But we

did follow trails mainly for safety issues.

So hopefully we can work something out to make it conducive for

everybody. Thank you.

Chairman MANZULLO. So you had a beach buggy?

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Yes.

Chairman MANZULLO. And you used to race snowmobiles? Okay.

I have just one question. Collin, do you have any national parks

in your congressional district?

Mr. PETERSON. No, I do not.

Chairman MANZULLO. But in an adjoining congressional district?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes, it is close to me. Voyageurs National Park.

Chairman MANZULLO. Congressman Stupak, you have four?

Mr. STUPAK. I have four, Mr. Chairman. I have Sleeping Bear

National Lakeshore down by Traverse City. Snowmobiles are not

allowed there because it is basically dunes areas. We know that;

we respect that. We have Pictured Rocks. We have Isle Royal. You

couldn’t get a snowmobile out there, because it is in the middle of

Lake Superior, if you wanted to. And Keweenaw National Park,

which has probably on average 350 inches of snow every year. That

is all owned by private and the village of Calumet in the area and

there is no real Federal landholding there, so they cannot restrict

us there.

Chairman MANZULLO. Are there any state parks in your areas

that restrict motorized vehicles?

Mr. PETERSON. I have a lot of state parks and you know while

they are restricted to the extent that you have to go on trails and

so forth, which is the way it should be, I do not have any where

they have banned the use of motorized vehicles of any kind, other

than to put them on trails.

Mr. STUPAK. I have lots of state parks, and again, in the critical

dunes areas, which are in Pictured Rocks and Sleeping Bear, and

other parts of Michigan on the Lake Michigan side, Lake Superior

side and even on the Lake Huron side, they do ban the snowmobiles and we respect that. We are happy to do it. We work with the

parks, be it the state, local, and Federal folks because we do not

want to do anything which would harm the environment. So we do

have some restrictions placed on them and everyone abides by

those restrictions.

Mr. PETERSON. Plus the trail system, and I assume you have it

in Michigan too. We have a tremendous trail system in Minnesota

that when I was in the legislature I helped establish and fund the

grooming. It not only makes a better situation in the park, it is a

better deal for private landowners because it puts the people on a

trail and they are not out running all over their fields, and it is

a safety issue. They are not running into fences, running into the

ditches. We have had a lot of people in Minnesota over the years

killed because they have run into a barbed wire fence or something.

10

So I mean the system we have got works. It makes a lot of sense.

The problem is, as I say, you have people that just do not like these

vehicles and have a different agenda.

Chairman MANZULLO. Are there any links between state parks

and the national park systems where the trails come together?

Mr. STUPAK. Oh, yeah.

Mr. PETERSON. Sure, and between us and Canada I have been

dealing with up in my Lake of the Woods area, where they closed

down the border stations. The biggest issue has been how to get

these snowmobilers back and forth in this remote area. We finally

put in video phones and we have been having trouble making them

work when it is 40 below. But we have got not only hooked up between private and public and state, we also have trail systems

hooked up between us and Canada.

Mr. STUPAK. The trails are all connected and run across the

Upper Peninsula, Lower Peninsula, through towns, private land.

Chairman MANZULLO. So to ban the trails in the National Park

System would interrupt the state trails.

Mr. STUPAK. Exactly.

Chairman MANZULLO. So it would be major links that would be

eliminated in the whole system.

Mr. STUPAK. It very well could be. It depends on where the links

are.

Chairman MANZULLO. Here is Senator Thomas. You have always

been great at timing.

Mr. STUPAK. I will make sure that you get this memo, the one

that I referred to.

Chairman MANZULLO. Senator Thomas, we are under the 5-

minute rule and you came just in time.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. CRAIG THOMAS, A U.S. SENATOR

FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING

Senator THOMAS. Well, our darned voting interrupts the thing.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. I am glad

that your Committee is taking a look at this effort on the part of

the Park Service to ban the use of snowmobiles in a number of

parks, and I am pleased to have a chance to talk about that. I am

chairman of the Park Subcommittee in the Senate, a native of

Cody, Wyoming, right outside of Yellowstone Park, so parks have

been part of my life forever.

I am concerned about it because of the impact it can have, of

course, on the gateway communities. I am concerned about it also

because it is my belief that parks have at least two purposes. One

is to preserve the resource, the other is to provide for a pleasant

visit for the people who own the parks, and that is the taxpayers

of this country.

So what is really interesting to me and concerning me is the

process more than anything. The unilateral decision on the part of

the Park Service to ban snowmobiles is troubling for a number of

reasons, I think. Basically there are two: One is that the park, by

their own admission, has not managed the use of these machines.

It has gone on in some cases as much as 20 years without any

management on the part of the Park Service. And the other, of

course, is that some of the information they use in terms of science

11

involved, this does not seem to be accurate. There have been no

standards set by EPA or any of the other agencies which the manufacturers of snow machines indicate they would be willing to do if

they knew where they had to go and before they invested their

money.

So, really, that is really the issue here. We have no real idea of

what the impacts may or may not be or how they can be changed.

There has been no attempt, particularly on the part of the parks— for instance, in Yellowstone there is an opportunity you could separate the machines from cross country skiers so that if they were

conflicting you could do that. And you can manage those things,

and that is what the park is supposed to do is manage this resource.

So I think the alternative that they have chosen is simply to say

that we are not going to do that any more. And, of course, in the

instance that you are concerned about it does have a substantial

impact on the economy of the surrounding gateway communities,

plus of course the snow machine is a fairly large industry and in

some States has a good deal of—I want to say, also, that in addition to the economics of it, I am very concerned about the access

question.

We have seen a lot of that in this administration, whether it be

parks, whether it be roadless areas, whether it be Antiquities Act

or the purchase of more Federal lands, there seems to be an effort,

a movement by this administration to replace their present legacy

with one of Theodore Roosevelt kind of thing and reduce access to

public lands.

I live in a state where half of the state belongs to the Federal

Government, and, obviously, my first priority is to help maintain

those resources but I am also committed to the notion that they

can be used and maintained at the same time, and that is what

they are for.

So I would just hope that we would urge the Park Service to

move forward in finding ways. Take some time. We have an

amendment—I am not sure we will push it on the Interior bill—

which says here is some money, take some time and study this

thing and see what impacts it has, not only on the surrounding

communities, what impacts it really has on the resource—there is

very much a question about that—and certainly take a look at how

it can be managed so that it could continue to exist to give people

access without damaging the resource.

So, really, that is, Mr. Chairman, that is about the size of it. And

as I say, I think I hear all the time, well, we have lots of other

places you can use machines, and that is true, the forests and so

on. But this is simply a movement into an area that I think is not

the right thing for agencies to do, and that is just to make unilateral, knee-jerk decisions here in Washington rather than going

through some of the alternatives that are available so that that

could continue.

So thank you very much for the chance to be here.

[Sen. Thomas’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Senator. The testimony that we

heard from our colleagues was interesting. Let me state that I am

an environmentalist, but I will say also that I also know these

12

groups work very hard because, let’s face it, if we are going to take

these trails and damage them, those that do snowmobiling will

take away the beauty that actually is why they are in there.

So I think it was mentioned earlier before you got here that we

should have a full Committee hearing and delve into this, but apparently time is of the essence if this was a proclamation that was

put down. Is this taking effect immediately?

Chairman MANZULLO. There will be proposed regulations coming

out in September, but this Subcommittee is doing what the National Park Service should have been doing all along: getting input

from the people who are impacted.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. But we will have to take care of this before this

next winter comes so it will not impact our small businesses. We

will work it out one way or the other. I think there is certainly

room for everyone to be accommodated and I think that is what we

should be doing, especially on the Federal Government level. We

have to take the interests of the local people, certainly people that

want to go into the woods, which is absolutely beautiful, and, yes,

working with the manufacturers because I think if they are willing

to come up with machines that certainly are in better condition and

have less emissions as far as air pollution we will try to work with

them also.

So I am looking forward—hopefully you will get some money into

the Interior Appropriations that we can look into this and actually

have evidence one way or the other on deciding this issue. I thank

you, sir.

Chairman MANZULLO. Senator, did anybody from the National

Park Service ever contact you or your office with regard to banning

snowmobiling in the National Park Service?

Senator THOMAS. Not really. We have sort of a unique thing

going on in Wyoming in which there has been over the last year

and a half a winter use study going on in Teton and Yellowstone

Parks, brought about partially because of some suits and so on, and

it had to do with the movement of buffalo and, you know, whatever. And so that was part of it. And during the course of this, before that was completed and indeed before even all the statements

that had been submitted had had a chance to be reviewed, and we

worked hard to get a cooperative agency thing in here for local governments, before they even had a chance to do it, frankly, an Assistant Secretary at Interior announced that they would ban use of

snow machines in parks.

So the answer to your question is no.

Chairman MANZULLO. Congressman Thune.

Mr. THUNE. Mr. Chairman, I do not have any questions at this

point. Thanks.

Chairman MANZULLO. Okay. Senator, we thank you for coming.

Senator THOMAS. It has been my pleasure.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let us know what we can do on this side.

Do you have a further question?

Mrs. MCCARTHY. No, no.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much.

Senator THOMAS. Thank you. Stay in touch, please.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let’s have the second panel come up and

we will get started there.

13

Okay. We have our second panel here. Let me briefly introduce

everybody. From my right to the left is Kevin Collins, Legislative

Representative from the National Parks Conservation Association;

then Dr. James Abbott, President of the University of South Dakota; Clyde Seely, owner of the Three Bear Lodge and West Yellowstone Conference Hotel, West Yellowstone, Montana; Bob Stein,

owner of Alger Falls Motel in Munising, Michigan. Is that right?

Mr. STEIN. Munising.

Chairman MANZULLO. This is in Mr. Stupak’s district. And John

Lyon, owner of J&J Sport in Sycamore, just outside of my district,

but in the Speaker’s district.

We will start first with Mr. Collins from the NPCA. Thank you

for coming and we are adhering to the 5-minute rule, so if the

gavel comes down you have 20 seconds to sum up.

STATEMENT OF KEVIN COLLINS, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, NATIONAL PARKS CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION,

WASHINGTON, DC

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Kevin Collins,

with the National Parks Conservation Association, and I request

that in addition to my own written testimony, testimony from Peter

Morton, who is a Ph.D. national resource economist with the Wilderness Society and also testimony from some folks from West Yellowstone, Montana, who could not be here today, be included in the

record.

Chairman MANZULLO. We will include that.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you. As the only witness here today who

represents the other side of the argument, I will try my best to

summarize the main points that many of us believe are important

on this issue.

Today’s hearing looks specifically at the impact of snowmobile restrictions on small businesses. We believe that it is the primary

mission and concern of the National Park Service to protect and

preserve national parks and we believe that that ought to be the

primary concern of Congress as well. We do not dismiss the impact

on small businesses or large businesses for that matter. But in our

opinion, the first concern ought to be for the protection of the national parks.

Let me say that I believe that the snowmobile manufacturers

have consciously decided to exaggerate the economic impact that

restrictions on snowmobiles in national parks will have. The International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association has an extensive

Web site that lists their position and various facts. They say that

West Yellowstone, Montana, quote, will close down if the park

transitions to a snowcoach economy. I think that is a fairly outlandish claim and I think if you look at the letters from

businesspeople in West Yellowstone, you will be inclined to agree.

But they then go on to claim that, quote, the phenomenon will

repeat itself 27 times across our Nation, creating wintertime ghost

towns across America. I think that is an extraordinary exaggeration.

Let me try to correct some of the misstatements that I think

have been made today. The National Park Service has not taken

a unilateral action to ban snowmobiles. As the chairman noted,

14

there is a proposed rule that will be released by the Park Service.

It is my understanding that that rule will look specifically at each

of the 28 some national parks that currently have authorized use,

and will deal with each of them and their specific circumstances individually.

There are really only three or four national parks at which

snowmobiling plays a significant part in the local economy, and

there is really no place where snowmobiling inside the park is the

only recreational snowmobiling opportunity.

Congressman Stupak spoke eloquently about Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore and it is currently true that Pictured Rocks sees

a fair amount of snowmobile use, 26,000 snowmobiles a year, but

that pales in comparison to the almost 300,000 snowmobiles that

are used and registered in the state. And those people, according

to the Association of Manufacturers, those people drive about 114

million miles on their snowmobiles just in the state. It is amazing.

The state has 6,000 miles of snowmobile trails outside of the national parks and the situation really is the same all around the

country. According to the American Council of Snowmobile Associations, there are about 130,000 miles of groomed snowmobile trails

specifically for snowmobiles. There are an additional hundreds of

thousands of acres of Forest Service lands, state lands that are

open to snowmobiles and other uses.

Of that, there are less than 700 miles of roads open to snowmobiles in national parks. I find it hard to believe that prohibiting

snowmobiling on just 700 miles of road is going to create winter

ghost towns around the country.

I think it is important to note that the town of West Yellowstone,

which has been cited and will be cited later today, as one that

would be greatly impacted by any changes in regulation at the

park, is clearly divided on the snowmobile issue. Many business

owners believe that the removal of snowmobiles from the park will

provide economic diversification and actual growth in the winter

economy, and I have submitted some letters to the record that

state that.

Over 150 West Yellowstone businesspeople, elected officials and

residents, which is actually nearly a third of the town’s voting population, have signed a petition asking for a healthy park and a

healthy economy, and I think that sums it up rather nicely. The

message from the businesses and people of West Yellowstone is:

Protect Yellowstone National Park and you protect our community

and you protect our economy.

I think it is worth looking at the broader picture of snowmobile

use, particularly near West Yellowstone. Again if you do some

searching on the Internet, you come up with some promotional materials for snowmobiling opportunities near West Yellowstone. It

says, for the hard core snowmobile enthusiast there are more than

900 snowmobile trails that are available from the Yellowstone area.

That does not include the national parks.

I have a map which is difficult to see, but I will submit for the

record, that shows in yellow and red all the Federal areas that are

open to snowmobiles outside of the national park. Right here in the

center where you see the lake is the national park. All of this is

other public lands, Federal lands open to snowmobiles. This is

15

West Yellowstone. There are plenty of recreational snowmobile opportunities outside the park.

On the other hand, snowmobiling has become a big part of many

people’s livelihood, particularly near Yellowstone, and these people

have built their businesses based at least in part on decisions that

the Park Service has made. The Park Service has clearly for 20

years or so, specifically allowed snowmobiles and in many cases

they have encouraged snowmobile use.

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Collins, we are at the end of 5 minutes. I will give you 20 seconds to wrap up.

Mr. COLLINS. I think it is fair and reasonable for this Committee,

Congress, and the Park Service to work together to try to smooth

the transition to a non-snowmobile winter economy for West Yellowstone. But I think the primary paramount concern needs to be

the protection of the national parks. Thank you.

[Mr. Collins’ statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you for coming. Congressman

Thune, could you introduce your constituent?

Mr. THUNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me just say that

I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing to talk about this

issue. This is an issue which is important to the people of South

Dakota, as well as the people in a lot of areas across this country,

of national parks. And I am pleased and honored to have with us

a distinguished South Dakotan, the President of the University of

South Dakota, someone with an extraordinary resume of both public and private service having been very successful in business as

an attorney, former state legislator and currently president, as I

said earlier, of the University of South Dakota. And I think he will

probably speak to the impact that this proposed regulation would

have on a number of jobs. There is a Polaris facility in Vermillion,

which is home to the University of South Dakota. President Abbott

is someone who can understand firsthand the impact that jobs and

economic development have on a college town like that.

So I am delighted to have him here today and to hear from him

and look forward to what he has to say. Good to have you here,

Jim.

STATEMENT OF DR. JAMES ABBOTT, PRESIDENT, THE

UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH DAKOTA, VERMILLION, SD

Dr. ABBOTT. Thank you, Representative Thune. Mr. Chairman,

thank you, other members of the Committee.

I am pleased to be here today and honored to be here today to

speak to you on behalf of the impact—of the economic impact of the

proposed ban on snowmobiles in Federal parks. I do not consider

myself an expert by any means on snowmobiling nor do I snowmobile. But I do think the impact is significant and could certainly

be significant to South Dakota and to my hometown of Vermillion.

‘‘Current hometown’’ is a better description.

I am president of the University of South Dakota, a small public

university with an enrollment of approximately 6400 students in

Vermillion, South Dakota, a town of 12,000, including students.

I will make my presentation as quickly and simply as possible.

I specifically, in addition to my written comments, would simply

like to emphasize two points. First of all, I think it would be difVerDate 11-MAY-2000 08:55 Feb 28, 2001 Jkt 070351 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HEARINGS\67683 pfrm02 PsN: 67683
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ficult to overestimate the impact of snowmobiling in South Dakota

and to tourism, which is, in fact, our second largest industry. Winter travelers in South Dakota spend an average of $281 a day as

opposed to summer travelers, who spend approximately $144 a day.

And among those surveyed by the Department of Tourism of the

State of South Dakota, snowmobiling was overwhelming the number one activity respondents said that they participated in in South

Dakota, or passed through South Dakota to participate in. 47.2 percent of those responding participated in snowmobiling as opposed

to 9.4 percent who visited, for instance, Mount Rushmore, which

would be our major tourist attraction.

I think it is also important to point out that in states like South

Dakota with a very small population and a diverse geography it is

important to maintain an economic base all through the year, and

not just the summer.

Our economy is heavily dependent upon agriculture and tourism,

and certainly it needs to be a year round industry, not just a summer activity.

I would also like to comment on the effect of snowmobiling in the

Vermillion area and on the University of South Dakota because of

the Polaris plant that is located in Vermillion, South Dakota. It is,

if I am correct, the largest single plant in the State of South Dakota in one site. Vermillion simply is a one-economy town in most

respects in that the university accounts for a huge number of the

percentage of jobs. I think it is important to note that the effect

of Polaris Sales, Inc., in Vermillion was the creation of 153 jobs and

$32 million in annual earnings. That translates to an indirect economic effect of about 146 more jobs and another $20 million and

approximately 3300 added jobs and $52 million in annual earnings

in the state. So there really is a multiplier effect.

On the University of South Dakota alone it makes a tremendous

difference because we have at least 55 students who each year are

able to find a paying job, much better paying than normal at the

university.

The other thing I think that is a very important thing to note

about Polaris is that in our small town of Vermillion, Polaris itself

is 10 percent of the commercial tax base of the city. An enormous

number, not in terms of dollars but in terms of impact that it

would have. And I am under no illusions that generally speaking

when an activity is affected, it is the plant in the smaller areas and

the less populated areas and those areas further from a major metropolitan areas which tend to be phased out.

So it is important to our economy, it is important to the University of South Dakota and it is important to the State of South Dakota that snowmobiling be protected in some fashion. I thank you

for the opportunity to be here today and appreciate the opportunity

to speak with you.

[Dr. Abbott’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Dr. Abbott.

Clyde Seely.

17

STATEMENT OF CLYDE SEELY, OWNER, THREE BEAR LODGE

AND WEST YELLOWSTONE CONFERENCE HOTEL, WEST YELLOWSTONE, MT

Mr. SEELY. Mr. Chairman, my name is Clyde Seely. I am honored and pleased to come before you today. I bring to you over 30

years of firsthand experience regarding snowmobile rentals and related businesses in Yellowstone National Park and West Yellowstone, Montana, gateway community of about 1000 people. I first

came to Yellowstone in 1958 as a laundry boy and have since acquired and have listed my other affiliated businesses on the cover

page.

I would like to share with you my observations and my best assessment of what a snowmobile ban would do to us and our community. I would also like to share with you why I believe the allsnowcoach alternative will have negative impacts on the economy

as well.

I currently employ over 220 people, many with families. Our pay- roll is in excess of $2.5 million. We provide retirement plans as

well as insurance plans for our employees. A ban on snowmobiles

in Yellowstone will cause great economic harm, not only to ourselves but to our employees. Cuts will have to be made. The first

cut would be employee insurance, then employees, then retirement

plans, then more employees. Of course, the last dime would have

to go to the bank to satisfy our loan requirements. I don’t believe

they would just forget about that.

At Three Bear Lodge, 52 percent of our total annual revenue

comes from the winter months. We believe that a ban on snowmobiles would cut our winter revenue by 60 to 70 percent. We currently operate 260 rental snowmobiles with the vast majority of

people going into Yellowstone at least once during their stay. Yellowstone was the catalyst for bringing over 60,000 people to West

Yellowstone who entered the west gate in 1998.

Let me preface the next part by bringing to your attention that

the ban on snowmobiles that we are talking about in Yellowstone

today, is the extension of the National Park Service EIS. Their preferred Alternative G would replace snowmobiles with a snowcoachonly alternative. This plan is fraught with many problems, illthought out assumptions and in the end simply does not work.

Chairman MANZULLO. Clyde, let me interrupt you. Could you define a snowcoach?

Mr. SEELY. They have evolved over the past 20 or 30 years. They

used to be a more antiquated machine than they are now. We currently use new vans, 15-passenger vans. We convert them by taking off the wheels, putting on a large track system on the back and

ski on the front and they carry 10 people.

Does that answer it? Okay. Thank you.

If this alternative, along with a ban on snowmobiles, is implemented, the result will be financially catastrophic. We also operate

a fleet of snowmobiles. We advertise with equal emphasis snowmobiles and snowcoach and find only about 5 percent of the people

choose to go on snowcoach, whereas 95 percent prefer the snowmobile. I proved as the boy the old adage you can lead the horse

to water, but you can’t make him drink. We can offer Yellowstone

snowcoach trips and hype it up as much as possible, but when it

18

comes right down to it, the snowcoach will only satisfy a niche market and will fail dismally in satisfying the public’s rights and wishes to access Yellowstone. If that fails, so will our economy.

There are real economic concerns with the snowcoach plan. One,

there is no feasibility study nor business plan that states that the

all-snowcoach plan will work. Two, snowcoaches, as we know them,

will cost between 65 and $80,000 per coach and will only carry

about 10 people. Instead of becoming a cheaper mode of transportation, it becomes a more expensive way to see the park than by

snowmobile.

Number three, rental snowmobiles are bought new and sold after

each season, thereby freeing up capital. The snowcoach will have

to be a long-term investment with a low rate of return and sit idle

during the summer months.

Number four, indoor storage facilities are a must. Land for such

facilities is extremely expensive if not impossible to obtain in our

little town. The cost of building such facilities would be horrendous.

I have read the testimony and listened to the testimony of Kevin

Collins, and I strongly disagree with some of the slanted misinformation and misrepresentations. I and the State of Wyoming will

be happy to follow up with a rebuttal of these misrepresentations

and misleading comments. Please enter into the record the copy of

the West Yellowstone Chamber of Commerce letter, a letter from

our mayor, a fact sheet from our school, and a Montana snowmobile study. All bear out the huge financial impact a ban on

snowmobiles would have.

In closing, may I summarize by saying about 95 percent of the

economy in West Yellowstone is tourism-related. The ban on snowmobiles in Yellowstone will bankrupt many in West Yellowstone

that are based financially on a year-round economy. It will lower

the quality of life for the employees, if not place some on the unemployment rolls. It will severely strain the school, town and services

in West Yellowstone.

I implore you to take the necessary action to keep snowmobiles

a part of the economy of the West Yellowstone and Yellowstone

area. I thank you for caring enough about us to invite us here

today. I think we should rise above political agendas and do the

things that are right, and it is not right to financially devastate a

community.

I would be happy to answer questions regarding whatever whenever.

[Mr. Seely’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. We appreciate you coming here from Montana. We will make, of course, your written testimony and the attachments thereto, including the statement from the Board of

Trustees for Wolverine School District No. 69 in West Yellowstone,

Montana.

The next witness is Bob Stein.

STATEMENT OF BOB STEIN, OWNER, ALGER FALLS MOTEL,

MUNISING, MI

Mr. STEIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. I am here today because of the Department of the Interior’s

ruling on the banning of snowmobilers in most units of the NaVerDate 11-MAY-2000 08:55 Feb 28, 2001 Jkt 070351 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HEARINGS\67683 pfrm02 PsN: 67683
19

tional Park System, specifically Miners Castle Road that is located

in the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.

Back in 1972, I came to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan from

Chicago, Illinois. My wife and I came to go snowmobiling and see

the Miners Castle, a sandstone rock formation that is in my opinion the most beautiful part of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.

I was extremely impressed with the area and in 1975 decided to

buy the Alger Falls Motel, a 17-unit motel located 9 miles south

of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.

At the time the motel only employed two persons, my wife and

myself, and accounted for less than 10 percent of my total business.

Since then, by aggressively promoting the area for snowmobiling,

the Miners Castle area has become the flagship for all advertising

in Alger County. The closing of the parks to snowmobiling is the

worst threat to my business that I can imagine. The mere mention

of these trail closures has prompted numerous concerned calls and

letters from customers and residents alike.

Snowmobiling has always been permitted in the area that is now

known as the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. Slowly, one by

one, the places that were once open to snowmobiles have been

closed down. Snowmobiles are now only allowed in the Miners Castle area on roads that are open to all vehicles. Roads are not

plowed in the winter and no damage is done, for there needs to be

at least 8 inches of snow on the road before grooming can take

place.

Two years ago, we started grooming the Miners Castle Road,

pleasing the tourists and the locals alike who can now experience

the beauty of the castle during snow covered months, which in a

climate such as ours can account for as much as 6 months of the

year. Few people could make the seven-mile walk up the road to

see the beauty of this piece of scenery. The road is presently open

to all users in the winter, motorized and nonmotorized. The closure

would affect only snowmobiles.

The only other way that this landmark can be seen is from Lake

Superior, and due to the treacherous conditions of the ice this

method is very hazardous. Although it would be impossible to predict because the area has always been open, I would expect a decline of at least 30 percent in my winter business from this. My

motel now employs four persons. That would have to be dropped

to two and a half persons. There would be a significant decrease

in my season’s occupancy and I am sure other businesses, be it hotels, restaurants, gift shops, would see the same effect. This would

be devastating to the local economy that is dependent on the tourism this trail helps to attract.

Again, I cannot emphasize too greatly that this threat is the biggest problem that I can imagine for my business. My daughter and

her husband are now contemplating buying my motel after I have

been in business for 25 years. If this trail is closed, it would not

be possible for them to purchase the motel. They would have to

leave the area. My family would break up.

My business has experienced years where there was lack of snow

and bad economy. These are factors we cannot control. As a community we suffered together and held on until the next year with

hopes that the weather and the economy would be on our side. The

20

closing of these parks is something we cannot control and are trying to keep open the parks to snowmobiles.

In closing, I would hope that the Miners Castle trail and the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore remains open to snowmobiling so

those of us who live here in that area may continue to make a living and people may experience the beauty of the Pictured Rocks no

matter what the season. Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

[Mr. Stein’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it. Our next

witness is John Lyon. Mr. Lyon.

STATEMENT OF JOHN LYON, OWNER, J&J SPORT, SYCAMORE,

IL

Mr. LYON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Committee members,

for the opportunity to address you today. I am John Lyon. I am a

small business owner from Sycamore, Illinois, a rural community

in northern Illinois. We own and operate the oldest Yamaha dealership in the State of Illinois and we are one of the original Yamaha

motorized dealers in the Nation.

We are, similar to many other small businesses involved in the

snowmobile industry. What we are really proudest of ourselves is

that our dealership is rated number one in the State of Illinois in

customer satisfaction and we have maintained that rating for a

number of years. We have a pretty good feel for what our customers want and what the snowmobilers desire.

I am also involved to a greater degree in snowmobiling, in that

I am a volunteer for the Illinois Association of Snowmobile Clubs.

I have been on that association’s board for 8 years and for the past

3 years I have been its president. I am very concerned about what

happens to our friends who enjoy the winter sports and enjoy being

out there on their snowmobiles.

In Illinois, we have 58,000 registered snowmobiles. We are not

the largest in those numbers, but we are the fifth largest snow

state in the country.

Snowmobilers very much enjoy the mobility of being out in the

wilderness, and we are truly environmentalists. We are very concerned about where we use our snowmobiles and we are out there

to see the winter beauty.

Because of the need to find a place to operate a snowmobile, we

are a very mobile group. It is not a problem for us to travel many

hours to find an enjoyable place to ride. So even though we do not

have a national park in Illinois where we can snowmobile, it is not

a problem for us to travel 6, 8 hours or 25 hours to the Yellowstone

area to enjoy the winter splendor.

Of concern to us is a statement that was made by Mr. Barry. He

said that the snowmobile industry had many years to clean up

their act and that they hadn’t. This really is not the case. We are

very concerned about what goes on and the industry actually, since

1994, has reduced emissions of snowmobiles by 50 percent.

It is probably one of the few industries that actually went to EPA

and said ‘‘regulate us’’ and EPA said we do not have any way to

do that. And the industry went out on their own and helped have

testing developed so the EPA could regulate the industry and give

us some standards so that we know where we are going.

21

Mr. Barry’s statements will most assuredly have a negative effect

on the small snowmobile business. The small snowmobile business

in the United States accounts for about 2,000 dealerships. These

dealerships employ roughly 20,000 people. And on the tourism and

outside part of it, there are 65,000 additional jobs. In our personal

business, one-third of our revenue is derived from snowmobile

sales, service, and related accessories, which would include things

like trailers to make our snowmobile experience mobile. In our four-state area, snowmobiling is a $3 billion business. It

is roughly half of the U.S. effect of snowmobile tourism and a third

of the international business.

This is a family sport. This is something for everyone in a family

group to enjoy. The average age of the snowmobile owner is 41

years, so they are fairly stable people. The annual family income

of that group is $60,000. Snowmobiles are known as money spenders in the tourism business. Unlike other groups, snowmobilers are

not afraid to spend some money when they go to use their snowmobile.

In the United States last year, there were 137,000 snowmobiles

sold, new snowmobiles. That is 65 percent of the world market.

This country is the snowmobile capital of the world. In the United

States, there are roughly 2.3 million snowmobiles registered at this

time.

Chairman MANZULLO. John, you have got 20 seconds to wind up.

Mr. LYON. 80 percent of snowmobile operations is on groomed

trails or roads. And we as a group believe in good valid science, we

want to be respected users of the land, and we are here to do anything we can to help you make a decision on the proper use. Thank

you.

[Mr. Lyon’s statement may be found in appendix.]

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. Congresswoman

McCarthy has another hearing. Why don’t you go first.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Collins, I just

want to follow up on some of the things that you had said. Obviously, after hearing all the testimony, your job certainly is to protect our land, and I agree with you on that. But being that, you

know, this regulation has come down without really any warning

to anybody, and did I misunderstand when you said that this was

only going to affect Yellowstone, or is this going to affect all of our

national parks?

Mr. COLLINS. There are two processes occurring roughly simultaneously. Yellowstone and Grand Teton are going through a winter

use plan development, which Senator Thomas referred to. Separate

from that, the Park Service is in the process of putting together a

proposed rule that would deal with the other 25 some national

parks that authorize snowmobile use.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. May I follow up on that? Being that the national parks are for everyone, and they are, when you were coming

up with deciding to come through with these regulations did you

not think that it might be a good idea to have the input of those

that would be affected by it mostly, especially those that are

snowmobilers and those that are in the business? And I know it is

not up to the national parks to be concerned about the businesses

in the area, but one thing I have found out about being down here

22

in Washington, lack of communication and education of people is

sorely lacking.

Could this not have been avoided by meeting with everyone,

whether here on the Congressional side or on the Senate side, to

work it out before it came down to this, where everybody is so contentious about it because you are going to affect livelihoods?

Mr. COLLINS. I need to make clear that I do not represent the

National Park Service. We are a private nonprofit advocacy group.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. I apologize.

Mr. COLLINS. That is okay. I will say that the Park Service at

Yellowstone went through an exhaustive public comment—public

hearing comment process. They got about 46,000 comments on the

Yellowstone plan. For the other issue here for the other national

parks, that the Park Service surrender a legal responsibility to follow the directives that are in a couple of executive orders, the Code

of Federal Regulation, the organic act that controls the national

parks, and that is what they are trying to do is respond to those

legal requirements, and as I said, they have not made a final decision they are coming out with a proposed rule.

Essentially what they have said is we have looked at regulations

that govern snowmobiles. We are not in compliance. We need to figure out a way to get into this compliance.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Going back to Yellowstone and the area that

you are definitely going to be closing off, do you have any estimate

on how many snowmobiles go into that area?

Mr. COLLINS. On an average winter roughly 65 to 70,000 something like that. Just in the park.

Mrs. MCCARTHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Mrs. McCarthy. Mr. Thune, do

you have any questions you wanted to ask?

Mr. THUNE. Mr. Chairman, I would just again comment on—I

think this sort of ties into another issue that is impacting my State

right now and another issue which Dr. Abbott is acquainted with

because his original home town is Yankton, and that is the personal watercraft ban. And I think what Senator Thomas was alluding to earlier is this precedent that establishes in terms of the process by which these decisions are being made and these regulations

are being proposed. And I guess that to me is one issue. The policy

is another issue.

But frankly, I have been very concerned about the process that

has been employed. And I would suggest just to the panel, and perhaps ask a question about how might we better incorporate the

suggestions and input of you all in doing this so that the people

who are impacted by the decisions that are being made actually

have an opportunity to talk about what impact that will have?

There is going to be a comment period, obviously, if and when

they propose this regulation. But would you be in favor of some

public hearings? I mean, how can the stakeholders, the people who

are impacted, the small businesses that are out there that we are

concerned about, actually have a voice in what is being done here?

Anybody care to answer that?

Mr. LYON. I would believe that what we are doing here today is

a beginning of that and that most of us small business owners have

never been involved in this sort of thing. My involvement today

23

comes from the fact that we came to Washington in the fall and

learned a lot about what goes on and now that something is really

impacting us, it is time for us as small businesses to make a decision to get involved in our government if we really knew how it

worked.

And so I would say that from our side, we need to better educate

our fellow businesspeople as to what is going on and try to get

input to you and let them realize that you want our input. And I

don’t know how to get that really initiated so maybe if we had

some in put from you, if we had public hearings, we could get more

people involved. They have stayed away from it because it has not

directly affected them. And now there is a direct effect coming that

we are very concerned will be a trickle down into the other industries. In our business we do not just sell snowmobiles, we sell ATVs

and motorcycles and all the related products, and the concern is if

this action can happen at this time it can happen to everybody else,

including people on snowshoes.

So I really do not have an answer to your question, other than

we want to be involved, we need to be educated on how to be very

involved.

Mr. THUNE. Has there been any, that you are aware of, interest

on behalf of the Small Business Administration in terms of examining this? Has it sort of been—has the SBA—and I don’t know the

answer to that, maybe the chairman does, but are any of you

aware—because that is the job that they are responsible for as an

agency of the government, is to determine what impact some of

these things will have on small businesses?

Mr. LYON. I am not aware.

Mr. COLLINS. Congressman, may I address your first question? I

would just like to say that we are fully supportive of the public

comment process because it offers us an opportunity as well to get

our views in, and I think that process will be extraordinarily extensive. If the demand merits it, I suspect there will be public hearings. It is an opportunity really for everybody to weigh in,

snowshoers, environmentalists, manufacturers, snowmobilers. It is

an even playing field for everyone and we are all going to take advantage of it.

Mr. SEELY. May I respond to that as well? We have offered on

numerous occasions to meet with the local Park Service and sit

down and get things out on the table and work out a solution to

the problem. We have been ignored. It seems to me that part of the

problem is they make a decision, this is where we are going, but

they haven’t figured out how to get there. They are using Alternative G now, but it does not work. They haven’t asked anybody

yet why or how the snowcoach alternative is going to work.

And there needs to be that process of on the ground people working with them, with firsthand knowledge, to help them arrive at a

solution that works instead of picking one and then hoping that it

will work. We have had no response, but I might add within the

last couple of weeks, we have had a listening ear and we hope that

will continue.

Mr. THUNE. I would, Mr. Chairman—I think that is a great suggestion, probably too intuitively obvious but we ought to have the

stakeholders sit down with the agencies that are supposedly—and

24

see, obviously, there is a set of objectives here that they are trying

to reach but there are also a lot of consequences that I don’t think

they have anticipated, and I think the people who are impacted by

those consequences need to be at the table. And as far as the public

process is concerned, I think that is why the hearing that you are

having today is important because it does give us another forum

in which to have some of these issues raised and questions asked,

and I would hope that that would continue.

And I think as the representatives of the people, and the Congress, that we ought to have a role in trying to resolve this issue

in a way that minimizes the disruption and negative economic impact that could be felt by a lot of the people at the table this morning. And I would say, too, as someone who comes from South Dakota, that tourism is critical in our state and at this time of the

year, summer tourism, and as President Abbott noted in his testimony, that is very important. But we also have significant winter

month tourism into the Black Hills of South Dakota and beyond,

heading out into some of your states and we all benefit from the

economic activity that that generates.

So this is a serious economic issue in terms of the way that it

impacts. It is also, I think, an issue of public access to public

grounds, properties, and for recreational use. And that is the

broader issue which we are getting into on a lot of other levels

right now with personal watercraft, but I appreciate your testimony. It is certainly enlightening in bringing us up to speed what

some of those impacts are. And I would also suggest that if you

have data—some of you indicated in your testimony that the facts

that are being put out there are not representative of the actual

reality—I think we need to get what that data is. We want to obviously ensure that the right information and the decisions are made

based upon good information, so to the degree that you could furnish that I would welcome that, and I yield back.

Chairman MANZULLO. Congressman Thune, I appreciate that. I

would stress that the reason that we are having this hearing is

that the people impacted have been denied any opportunity to get

their voice involved in the governmental process. When Mr. Lyon

was in our office, last October, we chatted generally about different

things. Then when this notice came down in April, our office contacted you and said there is something significant going on that

could destroy the industry and your industry had been blind-sided

by it.

So that is why we are having you here. It is a shame. It is a tragedy that we have to have a congressional hearing in order to hold

fairness going into a decision that tremendously impacts your livelihood.

Congressman Hinojosa.

Mr. HINOJOSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree that the presenters have given good input, certainly very informative to me. I

come from an area of the country that does not have snow and,

therefore, I did not know many of the things that I heard this

morning. I have a lot of respect for entrepreneurs and those risk

takers that set up businesses and make their livelihood the way

you do.

25

I have a couple of questions, I will address them to Clyde Seely.

I know that from listening to and reading some of the material that

was given to us for this hearing that there are people who claim

that wildlife is heavily impacted. In the area that I come from,

tourism is very important. Hunting is very important. And so I

took interest in some of the material that was given to us to read.

Many small businesses in the West and Northwest, especially in

Montana, gain huge revenues from hunting. And during that season, if there are constant groups of recreational snowmobilers, it

will create difficulties for those hunters.

My question to you is are there any public lands in which the

local or State governments restrict snowmobiling use on public

lands during hunting season because of the adverse impact on

hunting game?

Mr. SEELY. That does not happen very often there. Of course, we

are talking about Yellowstone mainly here, and of course there is

no hunting in Yellowstone. In Forest Service surrounding Yellowstone, it is not a very sportsman like thing to do, to go hunting on

snowmobiles. I am not aware that that happens a lot. I am not

sure what kind of an impact it would have—if it does one way or

another.

Mr. HINOJOSA. Another question also for you, Clyde. Do you believe that an economic impact analysis should also include the economic costs of continuing the snowmobiling in national parks, including the cost of pollution, the cost to wildlife, and the cost of the

degradation of the national park itself and how that will impact future attraction?

Mr. SEELY. Yes, I always believe in good studies and good

science. But the problem is in the past some of it has not been good

science and most, underline ‘‘most,’’ of the information that is out

there today is antiquated. It is not current. It is not accurate.

But I believe there is a real need to get accurate, current information. That is the answer to the first part.

Mr. HINOJOSA. Well, I understand. We both agree then that we

do need that economic impact analysis to be able to make good decisions. Mr. Chairman, I cannot help but agree with you that we

need to have public hearings for stakeholders and that we hear

both sides, that we try to find consensus where this industry can

survive but that we also respect those visitors to the public lands.

I think that we also have a responsibility to listen to their concerns

and to make sure that they are also heard and that their wishes

are also respected.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MANZULLO. That is a very interesting set of questions.

Do you have ATVs that go across the lands there in your congressional district, Congressman? All-terrain vehicles or motor bikes in

your part of the country?

Mr. HINOJOSA. Well, hunting in south Texas is done slightly differently. We do a lot of walking for the bird hunting, and we have

to do a totally different type when we are hunting for deer. So, you

know, the vehicles that we get to, our pickups, jeeps, that is the

answer to your question.

Chairman MANZULLO. You have a congressional district that still

has a tremendous amount of unemployment. Is that correct?

26

Mr. HINOJOSA. Yes, we are celebrating the lowest unemployment

rate in 30 years. This last month it was 12.5.

Chairman MANZULLO. We really appreciate your insights. Congressman Chabot.

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief. I apologize for not being here to hear the testimony but I will review the

testimony. We unfortunately around here have three hearings

going on at the same time and you obviously can’t be in more than

one place, so you get parts of each one of them.

My principal comment would be—and I do not necessarily have

any questions, but this is not particularly unusual—what has happened over time is Congress has turned over its power to a bunch

of Federal agencies and they have run amuck in all kinds of areas.

And oftentimes even though there is a public comment period because by law they are supposed to hear from the public, they pretty

much have in mind what they want to do, and to comply with the

law they will hold a hearing here and there and listen to people

but they really know what they want to do.

And I think that is not the way that our Founding Fathers ever

intended this country to be run. I think they intended for the public to elect people to make the decisions on their behalf. And if the

people did not like the decisions that their elected officials were

making they would get rid of them. But in essence what we have

done over time is we have given up that right to a bureaucracy

which is extremely powerful and over time perhaps we can make

some changes in that area, but it has been very slow.

I certainly do sympathize with many particularly small business

owners that have been very adversely impacted over time with a

whole range of government agencies, not just the Park Service. You

have the EPA and OSHA and many others who make decisions and

really oftentimes just do not look at the impacts that it will have

on people’s jobs and people’s lives. Not to say that those agencies

do not do an awful lot of good. I have kids. I want them to breathe

clean air and drink clean water as well. So there are environmental

things that we need to take into consideration. But I sympathize

to a considerable degree with the testimony that I understand that

you all made today.

I want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing, and I

would like to see more of these. I think it is very important. Thank

you.

Chairman MANZULLO. We should have a hearing out in Yellowstone in the height of the snowmobile season.

I have several questions here, but I would like to do something

a little bit unusual. Mr. Collins, I do not want to put you on the

spot. Unfortunately, in our country there is this tremendous divide

between the people that use the word ‘‘environmentalists’’ and people that are involved in businesses. I have a 14-year-old with asthma. My wife is a microbiologist. We raise cattle, and we have obviously a tremendous interest in keeping the air clean, keeping the

creek clean, and making sure that there is a healthy environmental

balance.

And unfortunately, people cross swords and everybody gets hurt

on both sides. What I would like to do is really open up the panel

here to see if anybody has any questions that they want to ask

27

anybody else on the panel. Any comment on what Mr. Collins said

or, Mr. Collins, if you have any comment on some of the other testimony that was given.

Mr. COLLINS. I guess I do. I have been waiting for someone to

explain to me the clear link between the health of a $9 billion industry and the closing of really a few national parks to snowmobiles. I guess I should mention that when you look at the number

of use of snowmobiles in national parks, after Yellowstone, Grand

Tetons, Voyageurs, Pictured Rocks, it drops off to an almost insignificant level.

So—and I understand, I am not saying that there are not individual businesses that could be severely impacted but I have heard

a lot of statements about the size, importance, significance of this

industry as a whole.

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Stein, all 10 miles would be closed?

Mr. STEIN. That is correct, 10 miles would be closed in Pictured

Rocks.

Chairman MANZULLO. Is that 100 percent of the trails in Pictured Rocks?

Mr. STEIN. It is 100 percent of the trails in the park.

Mr. COLLINS. I would respectfully disagree. It is my understanding that there are a number of roads in the park over which

the Park Service does not have jurisdiction and so that even if they

wanted to, they would not be able to close that to snowmobiling.

Mr. STEIN. It is a county road that would remain open to

snowmobiling, but it is on a park boundary, I believe. It is not

within the park. Roads within the park would be closed.

Chairman MANZULLO. What is the significance of that? This is a

good exchange. It is too bad that it did not take place before the

press release was issued. But go ahead.

Mr. STEIN. It is a link in our trail, as you mentioned before. It

is to Miners Castle trail. The entire trail length is 18 miles long.

Chairman MANZULLO. Did you have a picture of his park or was

that just Yellowstone?

Mr. COLLINS. No, that was just Yellowstone. Sorry.

Chairman MANZULLO. Okay. Go ahead, please.

Mr. STEIN. And this would close that trail, an 18-mile trail link,

which also 8 miles down that trail links up to another trail. But

it is called the Miners Castle trail because that is the most important feature on this trail. That is why people take this. After they

do that, then they go ahead and do other things. But to close that

is just cutting off your main attraction in the area, your flagship.

Just the publicity alone——

Chairman MANZULLO. So the Miners Castle Road and the snowmobile trail that goes by that would be closed.

Mr. STEIN. The trail actually runs right up to it. It does not go

by it. It goes up to the Miners Castle, it turns around in the parking lot that is used to park vehicles all summer, buses and whatever, and then it returns from that point. The trail we use, again,

it is used by motor vehicles, buses, trucks, diesel vehicles all summer long, and that is the trail we use for the few snow covered

months of the year.

Chairman MANZULLO. Clyde, you have a comment?

28

Mr. SEELY. I would like to take this opportunity to respond

again, to reopen the issue that I brought up about Mr. Collins’ statement. He refers in his testimony to a $5 million impact on

West Yellowstone from Mr. Duffield’s study, and it is my understanding from the State of Wyoming that they receive—they read that study. They report a $13 million impact on the five counties,

70 percent of that impact comes through or is apparent in West

Yellowstone, which equates to about $10 million a year and not 5,

and that is a significant impact on a little town of 1,000 people.

The State of Wyoming, using Duffield’s own numbers came up with a $50 million impact. And using their own data, Wyoming’s

own data, they come up with the real impact in the five-county

area to be more like $130 to $150 million. And so it is a significant

difference from what has been whitewashed before.

I would like to also call attention to the survey or this so-called

petition that went around. I have read this thing. I am a supporter

of a healthy economy and healthy park, and I have hardly any

problem signing this. There is one little statement there. This petition does not say anything about banning snowmobiles. These people are not in favor of banning snowmobiles. Some of my employees

that have signed this. I wouldn’t mind signing it too, with the exception of one little statement.

He also says that 150 businesses and residents have signed this

petition. 150 businesses? I counted quickly seven businesses. I

count some that have signed twice. It is ludicrous.

Chairman MANZULLO. The chairman is from Chicago. You can

sign as many times as you want. [Laughter.]

Mr. SEELY. And then there are some that I can’t read. This is

a poor representation of the community. I was involved with a survey conducted by the Chamber of Commerce and 90 percent of the

respondents of these surveys on two different occasions are in favor

of keeping the snowmobiles in the park, and to misconstrue this I

think is an insult of our intelligence.

Chairman MANZULLO. Let me throw something in here. Senator

Thomas said this morning that there has really been a lack of enforcement of the regulations within the park with regard to the

snowmobiles? Did he say that?

Mr. SEELY. The Park Service has admitted that. Don Barry has

admitted that. Mike Finley has admitted that. They have ignored

any regulations that they say they have been mandated to all these

years.

Chairman MANZULLO. So this must be the bane of the problem.

And yet there are some parks such as in Mr. Stein’s area—is it Pictured Rocks?

Mr. STEIN. Pictured Rocks.

Chairman MANZULLO. Was that 10 miles agreed upon by the people there or was that an order or edict? Do you know how that

came up?

Mr. STEIN. As far as I know, that just came up on this closure

order last November or last October. I do the grooming also for the

Park Service. Mr. Gerou grooms through a contract from the

Munising Visitors Bureau and I am president of the Munising Visitors Bureau. Last October when I got my permit to groom the trail

into the national park they had said it had been going so good with

29

so few problems that I would not have to renew it yearly anymore.

It was the first time that they gave me a 2-year permit to groom

the trails within the national park. And then this April we find out

that the trails were closed.

Last October I thought things were going fine. We had no problem. Nobody ever asked me about it. I have no idea how it came

about other than what I read in the paper. I have still not been

told anything as far as my grooming, except what I see as far as

the closure goes. I have never been notified not to groom the trail

or that we did anything wrong.

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Collins, do you have a copy of

Duffield’s study? Is that readily available? Clyde, have you read it?

Mr. SEELY. I do not have it. I just referred to it through his

statement.

Mr. COLLINS. I do not have a copy on me. Those numbers are included in the draft EIS and it is supposed to go to final fairly soon;

is that correct?

Mr. SEELY. Yes.

Mr. COLLINS. Yeah, they are putting the final touches on the

final EIS as we speak.

Chairman MANZULLO. Was he hired by the National Park Service?

Mr. COLLINS. He was a consultant hired by the National Park

Service.

Chairman MANZULLO. For this particular study.

Mr. COLLINS. Yes.

Chairman MANZULLO. Do you know if there were any other people hired?

Mr. COLLINS. I don’t know.

Chairman MANZULLO. Dr. Abbott, you would have been a good

person, with your background, that could have contributed a lot to

this study of impact on economic impact of a snowmobile ban.

Where is John Duffield from?

Mr. SEELY. Missoula, Montana.

Chairman MANZULLO. It is Missoula, not Manzullo. Does anybody else have any questions of each other on the panel? Dr. Abbott?

Dr. ABBOTT. I guess I would just like to make a couple of comments. First of all, as someone who does not have a direct pecuniary interest, I am never sure why a proposed ban has to be all

or nothing. It does not make any sense to me. In our little area,

30 miles from where I live there is a state park and a national

park that bound each other. And they simply agreed to have—actually it is watercraft, but all the watercraft you want above the lake

and quarterhorse only below the lake on the river. Those kinds of

compromises make a great deal of sense to me.

The other thing I would like to comment on is the economic impact. It seems to be the impression that the only economic impact

that ought to be considered by conservationists is the entire degradation of the industry. But in effect really small towns in thinly

populated states, often a 15 or 20 percent drop in business makes

a huge difference to the cafes, hotels, plants, et cetera. We are not

talking about whether Mr. X goes out of business necessarily. We

are talking about his ability to stay open or to close is often 15 or

30

20 percent margin, not 50 or 75 percent. I think that is an important thing to consider.

And I also think it is important to consider that not everybody

involved in this issue is a direct stakeholder. There are also other

kinds of people who are involved on the periphery who do not

snowmobile at all, as I do not, nor do they hunt or anything else,

but still consider that they have an interest in what people are allowed to do in those parks and I think that has been ignored.

Mr. COLLINS. May I respond to that?

Chairman MANZULLO. Of course.

Mr. COLLINS. I guess I would respond to the last piece about how

people without a direct interest also have an interest. And I would

argue that one of those categories of people are visitors, for example, to Yellowstone National Park who go to Old Faithful, which is

one of the most popular destinations, and in the winter are disturbed by the sound of snowmobile noise. Now, some people are not

and some people are. But clearly there are a lot of visitors who find

the noise of snowmobiles at Yellowstone in the winter to be an objectionable part of their experience at the park.

I am not saying that those people have precedence, but their

opinions certainly need to be weighed. So there are a lot of people

out there who are stakeholders.

Chairman MANZULLO. I haven’t been to the geyser, but it is my

understanding that particular area is loaded with gas stations,

roads, motels and hotels. It is an area that, like it or not, has become commercialized because it was the first thing to see out there.

But would you do away with the cars, the motels, the noise, and

anything that interferes with the sound of the geyser?

Mr. COLLINS. No, I agree that it is currently a built up area. I

would argue, however, that the Park Service is right to take whatever steps it reasonably can to reduce the impact, reduce the noise,

reduce the disruption.

Chairman MANZULLO. It was my understanding that the complaint about the noise, and I may be wrong, was just that point in

the morning when the snowmobilers got together and then left and

dispersed to go on the various trials. Is that a correct statement

that I just made?

Mr. COLLINS. It may be correct for some people. For other people

there really is constant noise at Old Faithful all day from a variety

of sources.

Chairman MANZULLO. You have been out there.

Mr. COLLINS. I have been to Old Faithful. Not in the winter, but

there is noise from a variety of sources. And it is reasonable for the

Park Service to look at these noise sources and say which can we

control and how are we going to address this.

Chairman MANZULLO. We have about 5 minutes. Very quickly

now, please discuss the issue about pollution, noise, antiquated engines of the snowmobiles. I think you had mentioned that in your

written statement.

Mr. SEELY. May I respond to that?

Chairman MANZULLO. Yes, quickly.

Mr. SEELY. The community of West Yellowstone has been very

proactive in handling this problem. We began using ethanol in all

of our rental snowmobiles 2 years ago, which cuts the pollution

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down by 35 percent. We began as a community, it was our direction, our initiative, to begin preselling park passes so that the machine would not have to stop and wait in front of the ranger’s station. So now they use express lanes and go right on through.

Arctic Cat, who supplies our snowmobiles has come out with a

four-stroke snowmobile. They will provide 50 of those to us next

winter, and the following winter as many as we want, as many as

the town wants that no longer burns oil. It is a four-stroke snowmobile. It burns only gasoline. Their economy is increased three

times. The noise—Don Barry and I had our own little experiment.

The noise decreases by three times with the four-stroke versus the

two-stroke. In a year or two you will see technology of the snowmobile manufacturers changed drastically and they will come in

compliance with the constraints of the Park Service.

Chairman MANZULLO. John, do you have a statement?

Mr. LYON. I just had one quick statement. In Illinois there are

2,500 miles of trails and 2,250 miles are on private lands. We are

responsible users or those landowners wouldn’t let us be there if

we did not take care of their property.

Chairman MANZULLO. We have to wind this up. I want to thank

all of you. This has been a super hearing. Mr. Collins, I really appreciate your minority status here, but this did not turn out to be

anything other than a real meeting of people with genuine interests. I think we have all learned a lot of things here. We have

learned about links of the National Park System with the state

parks and the emphasis on them. We have learned about tremendous new technologies that cut down on the noise, and dramatically

decreases the pollution levels.

I would hope that organizations such as yours, Mr. Collins, perhaps might be open to further restrictions, which the industry has

been asking for itself, rather than an outright ban on snowmobiles.

I would suggest that all of us keep an open mind and perhaps

somewhere down the line this thing could be worked out to the

benefit of the environment and to the people who live near the

parks.

Again, thank you very much for coming. I can’t tell you how

much I appreciate it. The subcommittee is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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