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44–773 PDF 2008

S. HRG. 110–526 

CRIMES ASSOCIATED WITH POLYGAMY: THE 

NEED FOR A COORDINATED STATE AND FEDERAL RESPONSE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JULY 24, 2008 

Serial No. J–110–110 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

( 

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman 

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 

JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware 

HERB KOHL, Wisconsin 

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California 

RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa 

JON KYL, Arizona 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas 

TOM COBURN, Oklahoma 

BRUCE A. COHEN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director 

STEPHANIE A. MIDDLETON, Republican Staff Director 

NICHOLAS A. ROSSI, Republican Chief Counsel 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS 

Page 

Hatch, Hon. Orrin G., a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah ............................ 3 

Specter, Hon. Arlen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania ................. 2 

Whitehouse, Hon. Sheldon, a U.S. Senator from the State of Rhode Island ...... 1 

WITNESSES 

Abbott, Greg, Attorney General, State of Texas, Austin, Texas .......................... 14 

Brower, Gregory A., United States Attorney, District of Nevada, Las Vegas, 

Nevada .................................................................................................................. 7 

Fischer, Daniel, Sandy, Utah .................................................................................. 26 

Goddard, Terry, Attorney General, State of Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona ............. 11 

Jessop, Carolyn, West Jordan, Utah ...................................................................... 29 

Reid, Hon. Harry, a U.S. Senator from the State of Nevada ............................... 3 

Singular, Stephen, Denver, Colorado ..................................................................... 24 

Tolman, Brett, United States Attorney, District of Utah, Salt Lake City, 

Utah ...................................................................................................................... 9 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Abbott, Greg, Attorney General, State of Texas, Austin, Texas, statement ....... 40 

Brower, Gregory A., United States Attorney, District of Nevada, Las Vegas, 

Nevada, statement ............................................................................................... 44 

Fischer, Daniel, Sandy, Utah, statement and attachments ................................. 49 

Goddard, Terry, Attorney General, State of Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, statement ...................................................................................................................... 79 

Hamilton, Marci A., Paul R. Verkuil, Chair in Public Law, Benjamin N. 

Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University, New York, New York, statement ...................................................................................................................... 85 

Hammon, Sara, Mesquite, Nevada, statement ...................................................... 89 

Jessop, Carolyn, West Jordan, Utah, statement ................................................... 92 

Parker, Rodney R., Snow, Christensen & Martineau, Salt Lake City, Utah, 

letters and attachments ....................................................................................... 104 

Photographs of Warren Jeffs and two of his wives ............................................... 172 

Reid, Hon. Harry, a U.S. Senator from the State of Nevada, statement ............ 175 

Singular, Stephen, Denver, Colorado, statement .................................................. 177 

Tolman, Brett, United States Attorney, District of Utah, Salt Lake City, 

Utah, statement ................................................................................................... 181 

(1) 

CRIMES ASSOCIATED WITH POLYGAMY: THE 

NEED FOR A COORDINATED STATE AND 

FEDERAL RESPONSE 

THURSDAY, JULY 24, 2008 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, 

Washington, D.C. 

The Committee met, Pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room SD– 

226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Sheldon Whitehouse, 

presiding. 

Present: Senators Whitehouse, Cardin, Specter, and Hatch. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, A U.S. 

SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. The hearing will come to order. 

Today we will have testimony about criminal activity associated 

with polygamy. As recent events in Texas make clear, this is an 

issue of real concern, particularly in the West and Southwest, and 

it deserves this Committee’s attention. Indeed, the Federal Government has a great interest in addressing the child abuse, sexual 

abuse, fraud, and other Federal and State crimes that have originated in polygamous communities. 

We will first hear from the distinguished Majority Leader, Senator Reid. At the outset, I would like to take a moment to thank 

Senator Reid for his leadership on this important issue, as so many 

others. I admire his determination to support victims of polygamyrelated crime and to ensure that Federal, State, and local officials 

are doing everything possible to prevent and prosecute such crimes. 

To that end, he has introduced the Victims of Polygamy Assistance 

Act, which would authorize a grant program to support victims of 

polygamy-related crime. This measure would also create a task 

force comprised of relevant Federal agencies to ensure a coordinated Federal approach to this issue. 

Our second panel will consist of the United States Attorneys 

from Nevada and Utah and the Attorneys General of Arizona and 

Texas. As a former United States Attorney and State Attorney 

General, I have a deep appreciation for the important and difficult 

work that they do and of the need for close cooperation between 

Federal and State law enforcement. I know that each of these law 

enforcement officers is determined to confront this issue, and I look 

forward to their testimony. 

Finally, our third panel will consist of Carolyn Jessop, a woman 

who bravely escaped from a polygamous sect at age 35 after being 

2 

subjected to a coerced marriage and countless other depravities; 

Dr. Daniel Fischer, a former member of a polygamous community 

who has since started a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping 

victims; and Steven Singular, a journalist who has covered this 

issue extensively. 

There are tens of thousands of people living on polygamous communities, some of which have become a source of serious, almost 

unspeakable criminal activity. Women and girls are treated like 

property; children are viewed as a source of labor; and teenage boys 

who do not comply with the harsh rules of the community are cast 

off into the streets. 

It is my hope that this hearing will help ensure that Federal and 

State law enforcement resources are properly focused on this issue 

and operating in a coordinated manner. Perhaps even more important, I hope this hearing will shine a light on these crimes and on 

the inspiring stories of those who have escaped and tried to help. 

Before proceeding with the first panel, I turn to my distinguished 

colleague from Pennsylvania, the Ranking Member, Senator Arlen 

Specter. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ARLEN SPECTER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA 

Senator SPECTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this is a 

very important hearing, and I commend our distinguished Majority 

Leader, Senator Reid, for taking steps to move this important program into the Federal arena with a task force to tackle it at all levels. 

There is no doubt that when you deal with items like statutory 

rape and domestic abuse and child molestation, you are dealing 

with some of the toughest problems in our society. I recollect my 

days as a prosecuting attorney, D.A. of Philadelphia, and noted 

that there was a tremendous amount of child abuse contributing to 

the delinquency of minors and domestic violence which went really 

unreported in a family context. And this is especially true where 

you have a religious overtone, where there are religious organizations which have unusual living arrangements and have societal 

arrangements which are conducive to this kind of conduct. And obviously we have to be very careful that we respect First Amendment rights and freedom of religion, but those rights do not extend 

to domestic violence, child abuse, statutory rape. 

The Texas situation has produced some very difficult problems 

with respect to what is within the province of the family and where 

the courts can appropriately intervene. And I think it is good to 

shine the public spotlight, as we are today, and to use this as a 

background for proceeding further. 

The Federal Government has a real role to play here. It involves 

many States and very, very serious issues, and the potential impact of organized crime or racketeering is something that we really 

ought to take a close look at. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I understand that the distinguished Senator from Utah, a former Chairman of this Committee, would also 

like to make a brief opening statement. Is that correct, Senator 

Hatch? 

3 

Senator HATCH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Please proceed. You are recognized for an 

opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ORRIN G. HATCH, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 

THE STATE OF UTAH 

Senator HATCH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will be very brief, as I 

know you have a full agenda today with several knowledgeable witnesses. 

Let me say before we begin this hearing, our focus should be to 

explore the proper role of State and Federal Governments in protecting innocent children and women and getting them out of unlawful and abusive situations. And I believe our witnesses will testify about the important role Federal and State officials play in this 

effort. Because innocent women and children are involved in this 

issue, they deserve careful and respectful consideration as we explore the best way to coordinate State and Federal responses to 

any problems that may exists. 

So, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to say these few words. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I would now like to recognize to make a 

statement to our Committee—I understand that the Majority Leader has considerable pressing business and that he will leave after 

he has made his statement, but we are very privileged and honored 

on the Judiciary Committee to have Majority Leader Harry Reid 

here with us today. Leader Reid grew up in Searchlight, Nevada, 

as the son of a hard-rock miner father and a mother who took in 

laundry. There, Leader Reid attended a one-room schoolhouse. In 

1977, he was appointed Chairman of the Nevada Gaming Commission, where for 5 years he worked to clean up Nevada’s gaming industry. Leader Reid continues to work every day on behalf of those 

who are less able to fight for themselves, and that is most evident 

by his attendance at this hearing today. 

For your statement, Leader Reid, I am honored to recognize you. 

STATEMENT OF HON. HARRY REID, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF NEVADA 

Senator REID. Thank you very much, Senator Whitehouse. I want 

the record to be spread with how much I appreciate Senator Leahy, 

the Chairman of this Committee, acknowledging that this is an 

issue that deserves attention, and he, with Senator Specter, authorizing this Committee to meet today under these circumstances. 

I am very happy that my friend, my neighbor from the State of 

Utah, Senator Hatch, is present. 

Senator Whitehouse, I especially acknowledge the work that you 

have done in preparing for this hearing. I have talked to your staff. 

They have devoted a significant amount of time to this hearing. 

Your background as being Attorney General and United States Attorney is a perfect fit for chairing this hearing, and I appreciate it 

very much. As I have expressed so many different times, I really 

admire your work ethic and the good work you do for the State of 

Rhode Island and our country. 

Mr. Chairman, I choose, because I have other responsibilities, 

not to come and testify before committees very often. I felt that this 

4 

was essential that I be here. The lawless conduct of polygamous 

communities in the United States deserves national attention and 

Federal action. This hearing is an important milestone in the ongoing effort to curtail the pervasive criminal behavior. 

By coincidence, this hearing is being held on the 24th day of 

July, a day that is celebrated by Mormons around the world as Pioneer Day. This is a holiday that commemorates arrival of the Mormon pioneers to Great Salt Lake in 1847. We do honor to our pioneer ancestors by condemning those who have wrongfully cloaked 

themselves in the trappings of religion to obscure their true criminal purposes. 

For many years, these organizations received little attention 

from the rest of America. They isolated themselves to remote locations and required their members to cutoff contact with the outside 

world. In the West, I guess we have an attitude that says, ‘‘Live 

and let live.’’ So we try not to bother our neighbors, and we expect 

the same from them. But polygamists have taken advantage of this 

attitude to form a sophisticated, wealthy, and vast criminal organization that has gone largely unchecked by Government agencies for 

a long time. 

As you mentioned in my introduction, Mr. Chairman, during 4- 

plus years of my life I spent as the Chairman of the Nevada Gaming Commission. Until that job, even though I had been Attorney 

General for the State and held many other political offices up to 

that time, organized crime was just a couple of words that meant 

nothing. It was something that took place in the dark alleys of New 

York and Chicago, and I did not think it had any bearing on the 

State of Nevada. But I came to realize that was not true. 

I was stunned to realize that the then-Aladdin Hotel was run by 

mobsters out of Detroit. I was stunned to learn that major hotels 

were being run out of a prison in Kansas City where a murderer 

by the name of Civella ran the operations of a number of major hotels and was so powerful, and the person we thought was running 

those hotels in a telephone conversation that the Federal Government was involved and we would never have known but for the 

Federal Government. There was wire surveillance going on. The 

man, the murderer in Kansas City, was asked a question by the 

person we thought was running that operation. He said, ‘‘What 

should I do? ’’—talking about the Stardust Hotel. And he said, ‘‘Sell 

the son of a bitch.’’ And the man sold the hotel. 

That is what organized crime is all about, Mr. Chairman. There 

are mob bosses. There were mob bosses. And that is what we were 

up against. 

I learned that they practiced extortion, embezzlement, fraud, 

public corruption, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering. I 

faced death threats. My wife found a bomb on our car. Those were 

not pleasant times in my recollection. I constantly worried about 

my family. We had to clear out my office on many occasions with 

threatening phone calls. We had to have people help take my kids 

to school. You get the picture. 

I am not here to tell anyone on this Committee, this Judiciary 

Committee, that polygamous communities in the United States are 

like they were in Las Vegas. But they are a form of organized 

crime. I repeat, I am not saying they are the same thing as the 

5 

crime syndicates were in Las Vegas. But they engage in an ongoing 

pattern of serious crimes that we ignore at our peril. 

The most obvious crimes being committed in these communities 

are bigamy, child abuse; teen or pre-teen girls are forced to marry 

older men and bear their children as little girls. But the criminal 

activity that goes on in these places is far broader. Witnesses at 

this hearing will describe a web of criminal conduct that includes 

welfare fraud, tax evasion, massive corruption, and strong-arm tactics to maintain what they think is the status quo. These crimes 

are systematic, sophisticated, and are frequently carried out across 

State lines. 

Today, polygamists have spread from Utah and Arizona into 

many other States, including Nevada, Colorado, North Dakota, 

Missouri, New Mexico, and, of course, Texas. They have even expanded across international borders into Canada and Mexico. State 

authorities are on the front lines of this fight. Now, Mr. Chairman, 

I think we have to acknowledge on occasion that when you make 

a mistake, you have to acknowledge it. A few months ago, I was 

so frustrated that I made some statements that said the States 

were not doing enough. And maybe they are not, but they are doing 

their best. They have worked very, very hard, and I have apologized to individual Attorneys General personally. But it has also, 

as a result of this, opened my eyes to the fact that States need 

help. 

They are, I repeat, on the front lines of this fight, and it is a 

fight. I have developed great respect for their work, and today you 

are going to hear from hard-working State Attorneys General and 

their efforts. You are going to hear from United States Attorneys 

and their efforts. 

I have long believed that the Federal Government should play a 

larger role in this fight. The States lack the resources to adequately investigate these organizations, and the Federal Government’s expertise in investigating ongoing criminal enterprises is 

needed. The Department of Justice should be helping States enforce their own laws, and it can beef up enforcement of Federal 

laws. 

Greg Brower, the United States Attorney from Nevada, my 

home, will testify today. Greg and his colleague from Utah, Brett 

Tolman, a State that I have great affection for—I graduated from 

Utah State University as a very young man. All five of my children 

have gone to universities—a university in Utah. So I have great respect for Brett Tolman, Greg’s counterpart from Utah. They are 

going to discuss the growing Federal-State partnership to address 

these lawless communities. 

I have encouraged this Federal-State partnership, as I indicated, 

for some time. I wrote my first letter to then-Attorney General 

Gonzales in 2006 to suggest a Federal task force on polygamy. He 

did not bother to answer my letter. In recent months, I have 

worked with Deputy Attorney General Mark Filip. I have spoken 

to Attorney General Mukasey. 

Deputy Attorney General Filip, a former Federal judge and a 

former law professor from the University of Chicago, has been so 

good to work with. I appreciate Attorney General Mukasey referring this work to Judge Filip, and he has assigned a senior Federal 

6 

prosecutor to coordinate Federal action in this area. I again extend 

my appreciation to General Mukasey and Judge Filip. 

Yesterday, I introduced a bill to strengthen this Federal-State 

partnership. The Victims of Polygamy Assistance Act would establish a task force under the supervision of the Deputy Attorney General to bring together the various agencies necessary to deal with 

the broad pattern of criminal behavior perpetrated by polygamists. 

The bill also authorizes grants to assist victims. Because these organizations routinely threaten, harass, and tamper with victims 

planning on testifying against them, it is necessary to provide targeted funds so law enforcement can protect them and, if necessary, 

shield their identity. These lawless organizations must be stopped, 

Mr. Chairman. 

I appreciate the efforts of this Committee to help shed light on 

this growing problem, and I applaud our witnesses: Mr. Singular 

for writing this book, which I thought was very, very enlightening 

to me and many people in our country; these brave witnesses who 

are coming, who have been involved in these sects; and all others 

who stand up against powerful criminal forces. 

I would be happy, Mr. Chairman, to answer any questions if the 

panel has any. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. On behalf of the Committee, Leader Reid, 

we very much appreciate your presence here in the Committee. We 

very much appreciate your statement, and we very much appreciate your leadership on this issue. 

May I call up the second panel of our law enforcement witnesses. 

Please remain standing to be sworn. 

Please stand and raise your right hand. Do you affirm that the 

testimony you are about to give before the Committee will be the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. BROWER. I do. 

Mr. TOLMAN. I do. 

Mr. GODDARD. I do. 

Mr. ABBOTT. I do. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Please be seated. 

We are very pleased to have a very distinguished group of law 

enforcement witnesses with us today. What I would like to do is 

to introduce them as a group and then take their statements in sequence and then have questions to the group in general. 

Nevada U.S. Attorney Gregory Brower. Greg Brower has been 

the U.S. Attorney since December 1007. Before becoming U.S. Attorney, Mr. Brower served as General Counsel to the Government 

Printing Office and as the GPO’s Inspector General. Mr. Brower 

previously served at the U.S. Department of Justice as legislative 

counsel in the Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys. His prior public 

service also includes being twice elected to the Nevada State Legislature and service in the U.S. Navy as a surface warfare officer. 

Mr. Brower received a bachelor’s degree from the University of 

California, Berkeley, and a law degree from George Washington 

University. 

Utah U.S. Attorney Brett Tolman. Brett Tolman has been U.S. 

Attorney for the District of Utah since 2006. Before that, he worked 

for Senators Hatch and Specter on this Judiciary Committee. We 

are pleased to welcome him back. 

7 

Mr. TOLMAN. Thank you. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. He also served as an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the District of Utah. Mr. Tolman clerked for U.S. District 

Chief Judge Dee Benson from 1998 to 2000 and received his law 

degree cum laude from Brigham Young University in 1998 and a 

B.A. from Brigham Young University in 1994. 

Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard has been Arizona’s Attorney General since 2003. Before becoming Attorney General, Mr. 

Goddard was elected mayor of Phoenix four times and was president of the National League of Cities in 1989. Attorney General 

Goddard also served as the Arizona State Director for the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Attorney General 

Goddard received his B.A. in American history from Harvard and 

his J.D. from Arizona State University. He served an active-duty 

tour in the Navy and retired as a commander after 27 years in our 

Naval Reserves. 

Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott has been the Texas Attorney General since 2002. Attorney General Abbott’s career in public 

service began in Houston where he served as a State trial judge. 

In 1995, then-Governor George W. Bush appointed Attorney General Abbott to the Texas Supreme Court, where he served until becoming Attorney General. Mr. Abbott graduated from Vanderbilt 

Law School and the University of Texas. 

Again, we are very pleased to have so distinguished a panel before us, and I would ask United States Attorney Brower to begin 

with his statement. 

STATEMENT OF GREGORY A. BROWER, UNITED STATES 

ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF NEVADA, LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 

Mr. BROWER. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse, members of the 

Committee. Good morning. I am Greg Brower, U.S. Attorney— 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Turn your microphone on. 

Mr. BROWER. Excuse me. We were just talking about the fact 

that witnesses always forget to do that, and here I did it myself. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. There you go. 

Mr. BROWER. Let me start over. Senator Whitehouse, members 

of the Committee, I am Greg Brower, U.S. Attorney, District of Nevada. On behalf of the Department of Justice, I want to thank the 

Committee and the Majority Leader for this hearing today. My colleague from Utah, Brett Tolman, and I are very pleased to appear 

before you today to provide the perspective of the Department of 

Justice and Federal law enforcement in working with issues arising 

from polygamist communities. My testimony will provide an overview of the tools and resources available to Federal law enforcement to address these issues. Mr. Tolman will follow with a more 

detailed discussion regarding specific efforts being made, primarily 

in his State and his district. 

At the outset, let me emphasize what I am sure is obvious. As 

Federal prosecutors, our oath is to support and defend the Constitution. The very first right enshrined in the Bill of Rights is the 

right to the free exercise of religion. The U.S. Department of Justice does not target anyone for criminal investigation or prosecution—whether individuals or groups—based upon their religious 

beliefs. 

8 

Instead, the Department’s mission is to target Federal criminal 

conduct wherever it occurs, regardless of the religious beliefs, if 

any, of the criminal. The seminal Supreme Court case on the interplay between laws of general application and the Free Exercise 

Clause is Employment Division of Oregon v. Smith. In that 1990 

decision, the Supreme Court rightly held that when a law is of general application and not targeted at a particular religious practice, 

the Free Exercise Clause is not implicated, even if the incidental 

effect of the law is to affect some people’s practice of their religion. 

The issue of polygamy illustrates this point. The practice is illegal 

in all 50 States, regardless of whether a defendant enters a plural 

marriage for religious reasons or otherwise. And with respect to the 

practice of polygamy itself, I should emphasize that it is usually a 

matter of State criminal law, and not Federal law. 

Over the history of our country, the laws defining and defending 

the institution of marriage have been by design within the province 

of the States. Polygamy is illegal in all 50 States because of the individual criminal codes of those 50 States, and not because of any 

Federal criminal provision. While polygamy is a State crime, the 

Department embraces partnerships with State and local law enforcement through information sharing, coordination, and other 

types of assistance, and will investigate and prosecute Federal violations where found. 

Thus, ultimately, the role of Federal law enforcement in dealing 

with issues relating to polygamist communities is the same role as 

in any other context—to investigate and prosecute Federal crimes 

wherever they occur. 

Numerous Federal laws are potentially implicated by the conduct 

in which some members of polygamist communities may be engaged, and Federal authorities stand ready to investigate and prosecute as circumstances warrant. Title 26 tax crimes are investigated by the IRS Criminal Investigations and are prosecuted by 

U.S. Attorney’s Offices and the Tax Division at Justice. The FBI 

has responsibility for investigating a host of other white-collar offenses, such as mail, wire, and financial institution fraud, fraud involving Federal programs, false claims cases, health care fraud, 

and computer crimes. The U.S. Secret Service has broad authority 

to investigate identity theft and credit card fraud. The U.S. Postal 

Inspection Service investigates crimes involving the mails. The 

United States Marshals Service has and will continue to aid these 

cases by tracking and capturing fugitives as necessary. 

The FBI and the ATF have broad authority to investigate violent 

Federal crimes, including crimes involving weapons and explosives. 

The FBI also has jurisdiction over Federal criminal civil rights violations. Indeed, it is a felony to interfere with another’s free exercise of religion by force or threats of force, under 18 U.S.C. Section 

247. That section also covers attacks on churches or other religious 

property. Finally, Federal criminal law provides for substantial 

penalties for arson and for threats communicated by mail, telephone, or Internet. 

In addition to the laws just noted, I should emphasize that Federal criminal law affords very powerful tools to deal with sexual 

predators of children. Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 2422(b), makes 

it a felony for a defendant to use the mail or a facility of interstate 

9 

or foreign commerce, such as telephone lines or the Internet, to 

lure a child under age 18 to engage in criminal sexual activity. 

Transporting a child across State lines for the same purpose is also 

illegal under 18 U.S.C. Section 2423(a). 

Both crimes carry a 10-year mandatory minimum sentence, but 

they are punishable up to life imprisonment. Even using the Internet or other means of interstate communication to transmit identifying information about a young child—for example, name, address, 

telephone number, e-mail address—for sexual purposes is against 

Federal law. That crime carries a potential 5-year penalty. 

The Department is deeply committed to investigating and prosecuting crimes against children, working closely with State and 

local prosecutors and law enforcement agencies to enhance our efforts. To further this goal, in 2006 the Department developed 

Project Safe Childhood. The strategic goal of Project Safe Childhood 

is to maximize the number of leads generated and investigated by 

Federal, State, and local law enforcement, and then funnel those 

cases as appropriate to Federal prosecution, where Federal nationwide investigative tools can be employed and Federal felony mandatory minimum sentences can be sought. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Mr. Brower? 

Mr. BROWER. Yes, sir? 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. May I ask you to sum up your testimony 

so that we can stay within our time guidelines. Your full statement 

will be made a matter of record. but if you could move to conclude, 

I would appreciate it because of our time constraints. 

Mr. BROWER. Thank you, Senator. 

In summary, to the extent that members of polygamist communities are committing Federal crimes, whether white-collar frauds, 

crimes against children, or other crimes, the Department is committed to working with State and local law enforcement authorities 

in the relevant jurisdictions to ensure that those crimes are aggressively investigated and prosecuted. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Brower appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you very much. 

United States Attorney Tolman? 

STATEMENT OF BRETT TOLMAN, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, 

DISTRICT OF UTAH, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 

Mr. TOLMAN. It is an honor to be here. I will say it is far different being on this side of the Committee than it is behind you 

and drafting the questions. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Wait until Senator Hatch starts asking 

you questions. It is going to get worse. 

Senator HATCH. I can hardly wait. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. TOLMAN. Senator Whitehouse and distinguished members of 

the Committee, I am Brett Tolman, the United States Attorney for 

the District of Utah. The title of this hearing is ‘‘Crimes Associated 

with Polygamy: The Need for a Coordinated State and Federal Response.’’ I am here to testify that Utah has a proud history of a coordinated State and Federal response. For years now, my office and 

10 

various agencies such as the FBI, DEA, IRS, the Department of 

Health and Human Services, the Department of Labor, and others 

have worked with State and local agencies to investigate allegations that crimes such as sexual exploitation of children, fraud, 

structuring financial transactions to avoid Bank Secrecy Act reporting requirements, drug trafficking, and violent crimes were being 

committed by members of various polygamist groups in Utah. In 

fact, a large reason why several States and even other countries 

have confronted the issues surrounding polygamist communities is 

because of the great investigative and prosecutive efforts in Utah. 

The aggressive prosecutions by the Utah Attorney General’s Office, various county attorney offices, and the U.S. Attorney’s Offices 

have pushed some members of polygamist groups from Utah to 

other States and countries, resulting in Utah’s interstate coordination efforts. 

Let me now speak to how the existing coordinated efforts have 

been successful. It is public knowledge that there are ongoing Federal investigations involving potential Federal criminal activity in 

polygamist communities. On April 10, 2008, the FBI and the 

United States Attorney’s Office for the Northern District of Texas 

announced that a Federal search warrant had been executed at the 

YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas. At that time, they also stated that 

the application and affidavit were under seal and that no further 

comment could be made because of the pending investigation. 

I can assure the Committee that other Federal efforts are ongoing, in my district and in others. Without going into the details of 

non-public past or present investigations, such efforts have involved the full cooperation, coordination, and communication of 

multiple Federal, State, and local agencies, including, but not limited to, the FBI in Utah, Nevada, and Dallas, Texas, the Arizona 

Attorney General’s Office, the Utah Attorney General’s Office, the 

United States Attorney’s Offices in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, and the 

Northern District of Texas, county authorities from Mohave County, Arizona, and Washington County, Utah, and other Federal 

agencies such as IRS Criminal Investigations and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. 

Just recently, on June 11, 2008, I personally met with many 

high-level State and Federal law enforcement officials from Utah, 

Arizona, Texas, and Nevada to discuss these issues. United States 

Attorneys from throughout the Western region of this country were 

present. The group agreed that the Federal, State, and local prosecuting and investigating agencies have a proven and effective 

working relationship, but that we can do a better job of sharing information. 

We shared information at this meeting and have continued to do 

so since in a way that is atypical of any other group or task force 

that I have been a part of. The group has been communicating by 

e-mail, and a Special Interest Group on Law Enforcement On-Line 

website and central data base for information sharing have been 

created. We have already experienced and expect to continue to experience great results from these new avenues of communication. 

Some have suggested creating a task force to deal specifically 

with these polygamist issues. With respect to crimes associated 

with polygamist groups, however, I believe that there is already 

11 

substantial communication and coordination among Federal, State, 

and local offices, indeed, just as much as there would be were a formal task force in place. Moreover, although task forces are an effective mechanism to combat many types of criminal conduct, they 

just may not be a good fit in this particular context. Polygamist 

communities are highly self-contained and insular, which makes 

them difficult for law enforcement to infiltrate. Moreover, whether 

it is due to loyalty, sincere religious belief, or coercion, their members are frequently uncooperative with law enforcement. 

In large measure, when past investigations have stalled, it has 

been a result of these witness issues. In this context, a task force 

may be too blunt an instrument to accomplish an effective investigation, and subtler, more covert methods may be more profitably 

employed. 

Specifically, my office and others have investigated in the recent 

past the case of Warren Jeffs, the leader of a polygamist sect in 

Utah. 

Jeffs was charged by Utah with being an accomplice to rape, for 

using his religious influence over his followers to coerce a 14-yearold girl into marriage to her 19-year-old cousin. Jeffs went on the 

run and was missing for 2 years. The United States Attorney’s Offices for the Districts of Utah and Arizona brought Federal unlawful flight to avoid prosecution charges. A Federal warrant was obtained. 

Jeffs was ultimately placed on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list, and after a nationwide manhunt, he was eventually captured in Nevada and returned to face justice in Utah. He was convicted and is serving two consecutive terms of 5 years to life. He 

still presently faces charges in Arizona relating to the alleged marriages of underage girls. After he faces State charges in Arizona, 

Jeffs will be returned to Utah, where he will be prosecuted by the 

U.S. Attorney’s for his unlawful flight. And as the Committee 

knows, just recently—and we have the Attorney General here from 

Texas—they recently announced further charges against Mr. Jeffs 

and several others relating to the exploitation of children. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Mr. Tolman, could you wrap up? The time 

has expired. 

Mr. TOLMAN. Yes. In summary, great efforts have been made. We 

look forward to continuing our cooperation and coordination with 

local, State, and Federal officials to make sure that we eradicate 

criminal behavior that is occurring in these communities. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Tolman appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you, Mr. Tolman. 

Attorney General Goddard, good to have you with us. 

STATEMENT OF TERRY GODDARD, ATTORNEY GENERAL, 

STATE OF ARIZONA, PHOENIX, ARIZONA 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the Committee. It is a great pleasure to be here. My name 

is Terry Goddard. I am the Attorney General of Arizona, and I 

greatly appreciate the Committee’s time and attention to this issue. 

12 

I have some extended remarks, which with your permission, Mr. 

Chairman, I will submit for the record. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. They will be made a part of the record. 

Mr. GODDARD. I will make every effort to summarize them here 

today. 

The investigation and prosecution of crimes in communities controlled specifically by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ 

of Latter-Day Saints, or the FLDS, present a unique set of challenges that I applaud the Committee for looking at today. These 

challenges illustrate the need for enhanced local-Federal cooperation and additional resources. I want to thank Senator Reid for his 

leadership on this issue and the proposed legislation, which I first 

saw yesterday. But I would submit it is exactly the kind of cooperation and support for not only law enforcement but social service 

support agencies which has been needed throughout the Western 

United States in dealing with these issues. 

At the outset, it probably should not be necessary, but I would 

like to make two things clear. First, I am talking about the FLDS, 

not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly 

known as ‘‘the Mormon Church.’’ Unfortunately, there still are confusions occasionally, although that should not be an issue before 

this Committee. Second, the focus of the work done in my office in 

Arizona and in the office of Attorney General Mark Shurtleff in 

Utah has focused on Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona. It 

is not about religion, not about culture, and not about lifestyle. It 

is about protecting women and children from crime, from domestic 

abuse and sexual violence; combating fraud and public corruption; 

enforcing civil rights laws; upholding peace officer standards; and 

ensuring that the rule of law is applied. 

For the past 5 years, my office has taken a systematic approach 

to restoring the rule of law to a community that in many respects 

has been operating outside the rule of law for almost a century. I 

have been intent on not repeating the heavy-handed mistakes of 

the past. Arizona badly executed a police raid in 1953 known as the 

‘‘Short Creek raid’’ that took most of the children in the community 

into custody and made them wards of the State. And it had three 

long-term negative effects: 

First, afterwards, governmental authorities were reluctant to do 

anything, to pay any attention to the area of Short Creek, soon renamed Colorado City, and Hildale in Utah. 

Second, the residents of these communities became highly suspicious of Government at all levels. We found that victims of abuse 

feared the State more than their abuser. 

And, third, the leaders of the FLDS Church used the first two 

to increase their autocratic authority over their followers. 

In 2003, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and I formed a 

partnership to undertake and coordinate civil and criminal investigations and provide a safety net for the victims of child abuse and 

domestic violence in Colorado City and Hildale. These communities 

have an estimated 10,000 people ore more, and they are geographically isolated and strictly segregated from outside influences. 

Over the past 5 years, we have expanded the partnership in Arizona and Utah into a safety net that includes State and local law 

enforcement as well as local service agencies, advocacy groups, and 

13 

members of the community. We have held monthly safety net meetings and established a permanent physical presence for law enforcement and social services in Colorado City. 

Now, outreach and support in these communities has been facing 

unique obstacles. They are very remote. They are, as has been 

noted already, highly centralized and thought is controlled by the 

leaders. They have very strong traditions, and they have a great 

suspicion of governmental agencies. So overcoming some of this resistance was a big part of our agenda over the past 5 years. 

I am pleased to say that the safety net has provided support to 

over 1,200 individuals, and the number seems to be increasing 

every day as people come forward to report needs and to report 

child abuse instances—something we saw almost none of 5 years 

ago. 

I would like to summarize a couple of very specific areas where 

we think Federal assistance would be particularly useful. 

As has been noted, the FLDS operates in two foreign countries 

and many States in the Western United States. These multi-State 

operations are uniquely susceptible to Federal investigation and information sharing. The businesses operated by this particular organization, by the FLDS, are beyond the scope of many State and 

local law enforcement agencies, but are uniquely susceptible to 

Federal investigation. 

Second, we believe civil rights violations have been occurring in 

these communities. In 2005, I addressed a letter to the Department 

of Justice requesting help specifically in the Marshals Office in Colorado City. We believe this institution of the State, of the city of 

Colorado City, was, in fact, being used to exile young men from the 

community, to enforce the rules laid down by the FLDS, and in 

some cases to actually throw individual families out of their 

houses. This kind of deprivate of cv I believe is, again, outside of 

the jurisdiction of individual States and uniquely within the Federal prosecution ambit. 

We have found extensive—and U.S. Attorney Tolman has referred to the huge amount of information which has been obtained, 

both in the Escalade that Warren Jeffs was found riding in and in 

the recent seizures in Texas. We are anxious to see that information, and any kind of sharing with Federal authorities will be 

greatly appreciated. But it is a huge volume of information, and the 

cataloguing and evaluation of it well exceeds our local capacity. So 

we would appreciate help in that regard. 

Finally, it has been far too long that Warren Jeffs and his FLDS 

predecessors, as well as leaders of some other polygamist organizations, have ignored and violated the law. Utah and Arizona are 

working to restore that rule of law in Colorado City and Hildale 

and to aid victims of abuse. What has taken a century to build will 

not change overnight, but step by step we are making important 

changes. A great deal of work still lies ahead of us, and it is enhanced local, State, and Federal cooperation, and the additional resources promised in the proposed legislation will make a big difference in investigating and prosecuting crimes and preventing future abuse in these communities. 

I want to thank the Committee for their consideration and the 

chance to be here today. 

14 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Goddard appears as a submission for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you, Attorney General Goddard. 

And now we turn to our final witness on this panel, the Attorney 

General of Texas, Greg Abbott. 

STATEMENT OF GREG ABBOTT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, STATE 

OF TEXAS, AUSTIN, TEXAS 

Mr. ABBOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and also thanks to all 

the Committee members for convening this very important hearing. 

If I could at the outset explain, I can tell maybe there was some 

question why I did not stand to take the oath. I am in a wheelchair, which is why I did not stand. I was out jogging, and a big 

tree fell on me one day, crushing vertebrae into my spinal cord, 

leaving me paralyzed. Otherwise, I would have been proud to 

stand. 

But I want to appear here to reaffirm the benefits that can be 

achieved by Federal and State cooperation and coordination in 

criminal investigations and prosecutions of crimes committed by 

members of the FLDS. 

As the Committee is aware, my office is engaged in pending prosecutions of certain FLDS members. Two days ago, a grand jury in 

Schleicher County, Texas, returned seven indictments against six 

suspects. All suspects are associated with the YFZ compound near 

Eldorado, Texas. 

Among the six suspects is Warren Jeffs, who is charged with sexually assaulting a child, a first-degree felony. 

Four additional suspects are charged with sexually assaulting 

young girls under the age of 17. One of those suspects is also 

charged with felony bigamy. 

A separate suspect has been indicted on three counts of failure 

to report child abuse. 

The indictments issued on Tuesday are part of an ongoing criminal investigation. This week’s indictments reflect a cooperative effort between the Texas Office of the Attorney General’s Office, the 

Texas Department of Public Safety, the Texas Rangers, the 51st 

Judicial District Attorney’s Office in Texas, as well as the United 

States Attorney for the Northern District of Texas and the Federal 

Bureau of Investigation. My office has also maintained open lines 

of communication with the Attorneys General Offices in Arizona 

and Utah. 

We have seen firsthand the vital importance of communication 

and cooperation among State and Federal authorities. 

The suspects in this case are part of an organization with roots 

in many States and many countries. To state the obvious, it is a 

big challenge for State authorities, acting alone, to contain or prevent criminal activity that crosses multiple States, and even national borders. 

According to press reports, Warren Jeffs ordered that the YFZ 

Ranch in Texas be purchased just one month after Arizona authorities prosecuted an FLDS member for an unlawful sexual relationship with a 16-year-old girl. This frames an important issue for 

this Committee to consider. When one State enforces its law, the 

FLDS leaders simply move their operations to another State. 

15 

Recent press reports indicated that, after the joint crackdown by 

Utah and Arizona, FLDS members began moving to southern Nevada and, of course, to Texas. 

This group moves seamlessly from State to State, location to location, and has the infrastructure necessary to thwart law enforcement. Even Warren Jeffs, who has achieved international notoriety, managed to hide from authorities for over a year, and he was 

on the FBI’s Most Wanted list. This leads me to two very important 

points: 

First, if individuals are charged with crimes, and if those individuals flee the jurisdiction by the time those charges are filed, State 

authorities could benefit from help by the FBI, the U.S. Marshals, 

and U.S. Attorneys across the country in locating and arresting 

those individuals. 

Second, and from a bigger-picture perspective, we have seen that 

the FLDS is highly mobile and willing to move from one location 

to the next in an apparent effort to avoid State authorities. Thus, 

it is critical that Federal authorities focus on the FLDS and devote 

the resources necessary to prosecute criminal wrongdoing that is 

uncovered—whether the evidence leads to Texas, Nevada, Arizona, 

Utah, or some other place. 

Although the alleged criminal conduct currently being prosecuted 

by our office involves crimes that traditionally fall within State authorities’ purview, there are important issues for Federal prosecutors to consider. Given the nature of the FLDS, and the nature of 

the crimes that may have been committed, there are a number of 

areas in which cooperation and coordination could be particularly 

effective, and I will outline these very briefly. 

Consideration should be given to the full application of Federal 

laws, such as the Mann Act, to prosecute crimes committed against 

underage girls born or placed into the FLDS, as part of the systematic victimization of young women within the sect. 

Consideration should also be given to the full application of Federal laws to investigate potential white-collar crimes by FLDS 

members and their leadership—activity that spans State borders 

and which Federal law enforcement is experienced and qualified to 

evaluate and prosecute. 

There should also be cooperation and coordination among State 

and Federal law enforcement on the collection, review, evaluation, 

and sharing of evidence that has been gathered throughout the 

States and Federal Government. 

Cooperation and coordination are also needed to ensure that if 

FLDS members are charged with crimes, Federal and State resources will be dedicated to locating and arresting those defendants. 

And, finally, I will mention that cooperation and coordination is 

warranted to assist the victims of crimes by FLDS members, including those victims who have been subjected to sexual or other 

forms of abuse. 

These are just a few ideas for the Committee to consider. This 

Committee and the Department of Justice can be assured that the 

State of Texas will continue to work closely and cooperatively with 

Federal authorities to hold accountable those who have broken the 

law. I can also assure the Committee that there has already been 

16 

a good deal of cooperation and coordination among State and Federal law enforcement officials in Texas. 

Thank you very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Abbott appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you, Attorney General Abbott. 

Once again, let me say what a privilege it is for this Committee 

to have the law enforcement leaders of Federal and State law enforcement from four separate States all here at the table before us 

to discuss this issue. Having sat in those seats myself, I am particularly interested in the questions of coordination. In my time as 

United States Attorney, a great deal of effort was given to coordinating the efforts of different law enforcement agencies. Unfortunately, there was a fair amount of stovepiping at the time, and to 

make sure that everybody was operating, particularly when they 

were in the same area, in tandem was a significant—I guess you 

would call it air traffic control-type operation. And it strikes me 

here that that is certainly merited. I have heard people mention 

tax offenses, which the Internal Revenue Service would investigate; 

mail fraud offenses, which Postal Inspectors would investigate; 

interstate violent and civil rights crimes, which the FBI would investigate; identity theft and credit card fraud, which the Secret 

Service would investigate; if there are weapons offenses related, 

the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms would investigate; 

and then, of course, there are statutory rape, child molestation, assault, violent crime, and all sorts of State-level criminal offenses 

that are involved. And there may be other ways to do it, but in my 

experience, when you are trying to organize something like this, 

the U.S. Attorney either called the agencies together, established 

a task force that spoke to each other, and everybody kept track of 

what everybody was doing; or at a less aggressive level, designated 

a point of contact within the U.S. Attorney’s Office for all activities 

related to that particular type of investigation so that, A, the U.S. 

Attorney had somebody accountable in their office to keep track of 

and, B, everybody in the office knew what was going on and this 

person became sort of a de facto coordinator for the agencies. 

Do you have either set-up in your U.S. Attorney’s Offices with respect to this issue? Or how are you organizing it? And when I say 

‘‘task force,’’ I mean an invisible one that is in the U.S. Attorney’s 

Office coordinating and behind the scenes. I do not mean a massive, as you say, blunt instrument of raid jackets going out and 

doing things. We had very complex task forces that threaded out 

one agent to try to infiltrate into a gang, and then he would come 

back and report. And then we would move another. It was done in 

a very covert way, but as a task force coordinated at the management level. 

Mr. BROWER. Senator, if I might address that first, I can tell you 

that in my 6 months on the job in Nevada, I have been very impressed with the extent of State, Federal, and local cooperation on 

a variety of fronts in my district; and in the last couple of months 

that we have been discussing this issue, I can tell you that I have 

been very impressed with the efforts by those at this table and our 

respective offices and other offices on coordinating on this particular issue. 

17 

I have tasked in my district my criminal chief to be the point of 

contact. Mr. Tolman mentioned a meeting that took place in my office a couple of months ago. Discussions have followed, cooperation 

has followed, and I think we are off to a good start. 

Mr. TOLMAN. Senator, in my office there is, as you say, an invisible task force, and perhaps that is an appropriate analogy. My 

concern has always been that the announcement, the mere announcement of a task force dedicated solely to target one individual 

group can often defeat the very purpose that you are establishing 

the task force. You give notice to those individuals that you are targeting them. And we have seen already— 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I am afraid today’s hearing may blow that. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. TOLMAN. And we have seen already with the announcement 

withdrawal of many that have been willing to come outside of those 

communities and to work with us. And we hope that it is not jeopardized because, as you know, the only way to get to some of the 

criminal behavior of these groups is true infiltrating the group or 

turning an informant into a cooperating witness. And I have four 

and will have a fifth person that is at the ready in my office to 

tackle certain crimes and investigative leads that may occur in 

these polygamous communities. I have one individual that is fulltime managing the communication and coordination of this issue. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. And to the Attorneys General, can you let 

the Committee know, how is this being coordinated either within 

the National Association of Attorneys General or, if it is a more regional issue, within CWAG, the Western Attorneys General organization? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, if I 

could start on that and defer then to Attorney General Abbott. As 

he said in his remarks—and I would have emphasized with additional time—this is a conspiracy, this is an organized crime, as has 

been referred to, which has profited from hiding behind borders. 

They have used jurisdictional barriers to their great advantage. 

There used to be a joke that the large houses in Colorado City and 

Hildale were actually on rails, and that if it got hot in Utah, they 

could move to Arizona; and if it got hotter in Arizona, literally, legally speaking, they could move it back to Utah. 

That is not true, I hasten to say; they are on solid foundations. 

But, nonetheless, the jurisdictional ability to slip away when it was 

particularly difficult in one State, to find another that was not paying attention, unfortunately has been a characteristic of this criminal activity. 

In addition, in the States, neither Attorney General Abbott nor 

I have original jurisdiction on the crimes that are being charged. 

That is our county attorneys, and I want to give great credit to 

Matt Smith, the County Attorney in Mohave County, Arizona, who 

has been the prosecuting agent. He turned around years of inattention in his term as the County Attorney there and has made a huge 

difference in bringing, I believe, eight cases now against people for 

sexual abuse of minors. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Since my time is running out, may I ask 

if Attorney General Abbott would like to add something. 

Mr. GODDARD. So we need better coordination, Mr. Chairman. 

18 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you. 

Mr. ABBOTT. I will tell you that we have benefited from the expertise and experience of both the Attorney General for Arizona 

and the Attorney General for Utah as we have gone about the process of the investigation and now the prosecution of these crimes in 

Texas. I also want to add, though, that we have benefited from ongoing cooperation and coordination with the U.S. Attorney for the 

Northern District of Texas. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Very good. At this point I would be honored to recognize the very distinguished Senator from Utah, Orrin 

Hatch, who has served with distinction as the Chairman of this 

Committee. So I am sort of rather new in this chair compared to 

the vast experience that he brings to it. So it is a great honor to 

have him have the chance to inquire. Senator Hatch. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I think you 

are doing a very good job as usual. You are very bright, and you 

have vast experience in these areas. 

Let me start with you, Mr. Tolman. In your statement you said 

that a Federal task force that deals specifically with polygamous 

groups ‘‘may be too blunt an instrument to accomplish an effective 

investigation, and subtler and more covert methods may be more 

profitably employed.’’ 

Just two questions. What do you mean by ‘‘too blunt an instrument’’? And could you please explain what other methods might be 

effective in dealing with these very serious issues? 

Mr. TOLMAN. We had established task forces previously. In 2003 

and 2005, attempts were made to organize somewhat of a formal 

task force. They are cumbersome. When attempting to target a specific group where you need informants on the inside or you need 

an ability to infiltrate the group, it is something that unless you 

have been to these cities and observed the citizens of these particularly polygamous groups, it is remarkable. If an outsider were to 

drive through, they are immediately recognized by all that are residents in this area. They know who are within their community and 

who are without. Because of that, it is a great challenge to publicly 

target a specific group. 

What is needed is constant communication and sharing of evidence and information, not only now within the State that they reside but now in multiple States and with international authorities. 

I am proud to say, Senator, that we now have more communication 

and information sharing in this area than I have seen in any of the 

successful task forces that are out there presently. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. We are so pleased to have all 

of you here. It means a lot to us to help us understand these things 

better. 

I do not countenance criminal activity in any way, and I know 

you do not either. But let me ask you this, Mr. Brower: I greatly 

appreciate the part of your testimony where you state, ‘‘The United 

States Department of Justice does not target anyone for criminal 

investigation or prosecution—whether individuals or groups—based 

upon their religious beliefs.’’ Now, you further stated that, ‘‘The Department’s mission is to target Federal criminal conduct wherever 

it occurs...’’ 

19 

Now, I think it is vitally important that these statements be 

highlighted. Are you aware of any current investigations in which 

religious organizations have been targeted simply based on their 

religious beliefs? 

Mr. BROWER. I am not, Senator. That is an excellent question, of 

course, and as I mentioned in my statement, the Department simply does not engage in such targeting. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. 

Mr. BROWER. It is just not important to the Department whether 

a criminal wrongdoer has a religious affiliation or not. It is just not 

relevant. 

Senator HATCH. Thank you. 

Mr. Tolman, just a short answer on this if you can. There appears to be a perception by some that certain Western States are 

simply ignoring possible criminal violations occurring in polygamous groups. I am certainly aware that many States, including 

Utah, fairly pursue the appropriate investigations of criminal activity. 

Now, isn’t it accurate that law enforcement entities in Utah and 

other States have vigorously investigated credible accusations related to this topic? 

Mr. TOLMAN. Senator, let me, if I may, describe to you what investigations have been—what leads have been followed upon and 

what investigations have been conducted just by the FBI and my 

office. 

Senator HATCH. If you could do it quickly, I would appreciate it. 

Mr. TOLMAN. Since 2004, we have investigated and followed up 

leads involving racketeering charges, illegal wiretaps, and possible 

civil rights violations by the Hildale/Colorado City marshals; trafficking in underage girls for the purposes of forced arranged marriage to older men or otherwise known as the Mann Act violations; 

unlawful flight to avoid prosecution; stockpiling of illegal weapons 

and explosives, including machine guns and .50-caliber sniper rifles. We investigated allegations of the murders of infant children 

and improper disposal of their remains; various forms of Government program fraud, including Medicaid and food stamp program 

fraud, as well as false claims for reimbursement for child care expenses. We have investigated and worked with partners for violations of child labor laws. We have investigated sexual misconduct 

by Warren Jeffs and other leads of the FLDS sect, including illegal 

sexual acts perpetrated against children. We have investigated tax 

fraud. The IRS has investigated a number of other types of fraud 

involving tax schemes, including business fraud and individual 

fraud. And we have investigated corporate and business fraud allegations in the southern part of Utah. 

That is just since 2004. It is to me one of the areas in which we 

work most diligently to followup on these leads. But, last, Senator, 

may I add that it is significant and important that we remember 

that probable cause must be established before we can present any 

investigative leads to the grand jury to seek charges. And our finding is that often without cooperating witnesses or someone from 

the inside, probable cause is difficult to maintain, and I am reluctant to act without that standard of the Constitution met. 

20 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. The Chairman has graciously 

allotted me a little more time to ask a couple of other questions 

since my State has been involved to a degree. 

Mr. Goddard, you indicated—and I appreciate your testimony. I 

appreciate the work that you have done and that you are doing in 

Arizona. But you stated that the Church of Jesus Christ of LatterDay Saints, commonly nicknamed ‘‘the Mormon Church,’’ should 

not be confused with the FLDS. Could you explain what that 

means? 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Hatch, I would be delighted. And the confusion has persisted in the media, and I think 

it is highly unfortunate. 

Senator HATCH. It is very offensive to me and to Senator Reid 

and every one of us who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of 

Latter-Day Saints. 

Mr. GODDARD. Obviously, the break that took place at the beginning of the last century, in the 1900s, when polygamy was declared 

a felony crime in Utah, a small splinter group, FLDS and some others, split off. They have distinctly different leadership, different beliefs. And I just want to be absolutely clear that there should be 

no confusion between this small sect—actually, one of the largest 

sects in the United States, but small compared to other religions— 

and the Mormon Church. And I hate to say the confusion of names 

has sometimes led media, in particular, to get these two organizations mixed up. That is something that is greatly to be regretted. 

The FLDS nomenclature was actually determined by a lawyer to 

create some kind of uniqueness for the sect led by Warren Jeffs. 

It was not chosen by them, but that history has caused some bad 

confusion. 

Senator, could I talk just for one second about the coordination? 

Senator HATCH. Sure. 

Mr. GODDARD. I believe I speak for your Attorney General, Mark 

Shurtleff, as well as myself to say that we have pled for the kind 

of the Federal cooperation that we are now beginning to see in our 

States. It has taken a while coming, and I do appreciate the meeting that was recently held in Las Vegas where 50 local and State 

and Federal law enforcement officers got together, shared information, and talked about where we can go next to coordinate and cooperate. That is great progress. But like any investigation and ultimately, we hope, or believe, prosecution, of this size, it is going to 

need a captain. It is going to need some kind of coordination to 

make sure that everybody is on the same page and that they come 

back to these issues each day. 

As I said, the FLDS has thrived in isolation, and they have used 

borders to their great benefit. And unless we can have the kind of 

overall coordination in the region and across national borders as 

well, it is going to be difficult to pursue these criminal activities 

to the end. And I believe that is what this hearing is all about. And 

I hope the Senate will take very seriously the request that I support—and I know Attorney General Shurtleff solemnly supports— 

the idea of a task force, a strike force, a coordinating entity in the 

Department of Justice that can help us overcome the isolation and 

the use of barriers, jurisdictional barriers, to the benefit of criminal 

activity. 

21 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. 

Mr. Tolman, do you agree with Mr. Goddard that the worldwide 

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints should be completely 

delineated as separate from the FLDS? 

Mr. TOLMAN. Education is ongoing and a challenge with respect 

to this issue, and one of the biggest, I think, hurdles comes at the 

beginning, and that is, who exactly is this group and what do they 

stand for. And the fact that they are separate and distinct, that the 

LDS Church, otherwise known as the Mormons, since 1900 have 

kicked out any of its members who have practiced polygamy and 

has indicated that their membership is to strictly adhere to the 

law. That is a big distinction and an area of confusion. I agree with 

the Attorney General that it is unfortunate. But it should be noted 

that we receive great cooperation in Utah by the membership of 

the LDS Church who hope that this practice is eradicated and the 

damaging effect that it has on the children especially, and the 

women in this community, are considerations that are at the forefront of their mind and in our mind. 

Senator HATCH. Mr. Abbott, I am sorry I did not have any questions for you. I do have some, but I think I have taken enough 

time. But I appreciate the difficulty of your State and some of the 

problems that have existed. And I am just very impressed with you 

and your testimony here today. 

Mr. GODDARD. Thank you. 

Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I am now pleased to call on the distinguished Senator from Maryland, Senator Ben Cardin. 

Senator CARDIN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank you 

very much for holding this hearing, and I thank Senator Hatch for 

his leadership in this area and so many different areas over the 

years. And I certainly concur completely with your comment about 

the need to make it clear that FLDS and similar groups are in no 

way related to the Church of Latter-Day Saints and legitimate 

church groups around the country. I thank you for making that distinction. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. I appreciate your comments. 

Senator CARDIN. On the next panel, there are two witnesses that 

will give firsthand accounts of what it was like living in FLDS and 

their personal experiences and those of their families. And I must 

tell you, I first want to thank you all because I know that you are 

dedicated to doing everything you can to protect families in our 

country and to make sure our laws are adhered to and using the 

resources the best you can to make sure that those that are engaged in criminal conduct are brought to justice. 

But I must tell you, as I read the testimony of the witnesses in 

the next panel and read their experiences—I chair the Helsinki 

Commission on the Senate side where we look at international 

human rights violations, and what happened here, what is happening here in this country is as bad as anything I have seen anywhere in the world on children and families that have been denied 

basic human rights because of the activities of those involved in 

these polygamous colonies. 

It is difficult to understand how this can occur in the United 

States and has occurred for such a long period of time. One of the 

22 

witnesses will talk about her experiences with local officials, how— 

and let me just quote. When someone would complain of being 

abused, a woman would complain, they would say you ‘‘are married 

to a good man’’ and if she was obedient, ‘‘there would not be any 

problems,’’ referring to the local police returning a woman back to 

her husband, saying, you know, ‘‘Be obedient.’’ 

She then goes on to say that women could not get driver’s licenses, so, therefore, they could not drive outside of their own community. They could drive in their own community because the local 

police would not bother them. And it goes on to talk more and more 

about the collusion of local officials. 

So I really want to ask whether as part of your investigation you 

are looking at the activities of those who have sworn to uphold our 

law and whether they have violated their oath, violated statutes in 

allowing those who needed protection being denied the opportunity 

to get the type of services that should have been provided, and 

whether these local officials are really very complicit in the illegal 

activities of these polygamous groups. 

Mr. TOLMAN. Senator, if I might, that is a constant stream of allegations in the history of dealing with this issue, that the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Utah, speaking just for my office, that we have 

dealt with. We receive several allegations each year of corruption, 

public corruption in the police force and those that hold community 

leadership positions in that community. 

We have reached dead ends on so many of the investigations that 

great discouragement has occurred. But I will tell you, with the apprehension of Warren Jeffs, some of the evidence that has been 

seized both in Utah and in Texas, we are more hopeful than we 

have been in previous time that we may be able to establish the 

evidence necessary to present that to a Federal grand jury. 

Senator CARDIN. I think that is very important—and I will let 

you all have a chance, please. 

Mr. ABBOTT. If I could add, you are actually highlighting one of 

the big challenges. A concern obviously may exist with regard to 

corruption, but you need to understand the broader concept of how 

FLDS goes about their organization network. 

When they came to Texas, they picked a county that was so 

sparsely populated, the FLDS sect would be able to step in and 

perhaps gain control of the governmental apparatus in a way that 

they could keep away from any kind of—or suppress any kind of 

law enforcement effort. There are less than 700 people who voted 

in Schleicher County, Texas, which is the county where FLDS set 

up their sect. We believe that FLDS set up their sect in Schleicher 

County, Texas, understanding that their population alone may be 

able to overtake the voting population in the county in a way 

where they would be able to control the local law enforcement 

agencies in a way where they could evade any kind of prosecutorial 

effort. 

Let me be very clear about one thing. I know you want to say 

something, but I want to be clear. We have seen no evidence whatsoever concerning the local officials in the State of Texas about any 

kind of illegal conduct by those local officials or anything improper, 

but we do see this pattern of organization by FLDS in a way which 

23 

way they try to set up their operations to evade governmental prosecution. 

Senator CARDIN. I will give you a chance to comment. 

Mr. GODDARD. Mr. Chairman, Senator Cardin, one of the main 

reasons I am here to plead for additional Federal support is because of civil rights violations perpetrated by officials. Between Attorney General Shurtleff and myself and the efforts of the local law 

enforcement certifying community, we have de-certified six town 

marshals in Colorado City and Hildale. But I do not believe that 

is enough. De-certification is a ponderous process. It usually involves, as U.S. Attorney Tolman has said, a proof of adherence to 

something other than the law and Constitution. And so we, for instance, have found documentary evidence in correspondence with 

Warren Jeffs where members of the Marshal’s staff said, ‘‘We will 

follow you, not the law, not the judges.’’ We have asked the marshals to serve warrants, and they have sat there while fugitives escaped in their observation. So these people were not following their 

sworn duty. We have removed six of them, but others who are also 

members of the FLDS have come in their place. 

This is an institutional problem, and the Justice Department in 

other communities—I believe Detroit is one example—have gone in 

and found systematic civil rights violations and have taken over 

their department, found that it was unable to perform its sworn 

duties. I would submit—and this was my request 3 years ago—that 

the Justice Department needs to take a hard look at institutional 

civil rights violations with a possible thought of taking over a receivership-type operation, because the marshals as an institution 

are having a very hard time following the law. 

Senator CARDIN. I would just urge us to learn from how we dealt 

with the civil rights issues and where we knew the local officials 

were very much involved in our strategy in trying to deal with the 

protection of communities and the need for Federal involvement. I 

see a similarity here. 

Just a final point I would make. In the testimony, it was brought 

out about this group could easily be classified as a hate group, a 

hate crimes group, because of what they are teaching young children. And I think it really does cry out for us to be very comprehensive as to how we go forward. And it would be, I think, a 

clear signal to see criminal charges brought against those who have 

violated the criminal statutes that are elected—or who are public 

officials as a clear signal that this cannot be tolerated in this country. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I will conclude this panel by once again 

thanking the witnesses. You bring great distinction to this Committee with your presence, and I hope you find that the hearing 

has been helpful in terms of animating the spirit of cooperation 

that is necessary to prosecute these criminal offenses. If we can be 

further helpful, please do not hesitate to call on us, and the panel 

is excused. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I will call up our final panel. 

Would you all please raise your right hands? Do you affirm that 

the testimony you are about to give before the Committee will be 

24 

the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 

God? 

Mr. SINGULAR. I do. 

Mr. FISCHER. I do. 

Ms. JESSOP. I do. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Please be seated, and I welcome you to 

this Committee. I know that this is a difficult and very personal 

subject, and I have to say you have exhibited very great courage 

and character in being here today, and I appreciate it very much. 

Why don’t we just go across, beginning with Mr. Stephen Singular. 

STATEMENT OF STEPHEN SINGULAR, DENVER, COLORADO 

Mr. SINGULAR. Thank you, members of the Committee. 

I am an investigative journalist and the author of 19 nonfiction 

books. Since 1985, I have been writing about that line where religion crosses over into criminal behavior. In early 2006, my wife, 

Joyce, suggested that I look into the story of Warren Jeffs and the 

FLDS because she believed that women in particular would be interested in this story. She was right, and this is a significant point. 

Historically, societies can be measured by how they treat women 

and children. 

That spring, I began traveling to Colorado City, Arizona, interviewing townspeople, ex-church members, and law enforcement. In 

1953, Arizona had raided this community to root out the FLDS polygamous lifestyle and had failed both legally and in terms of public opinion. Fifty years later, the State was employing criminal investigation techniques to target specific individuals who were 

breaking the law, and they were having success. Both Arizona and 

Utah were building a new approach to tackling what many have 

called religious terrorism. 

One victory came with the capture of fugitive Warren Jeffs, the 

prophet or leader of the FLDS. In September 2007, he was convicted on two counts of accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old 

girl to marry her first cousin. 

Back in the 1970s, Jeffs was the principal of the FLDS-run Alta 

Academy, just outside Salt Lake City, and students there later described how he had abused them emotionally and physically. His 

nephew, Brent Jeffs, eventually sued Warren and two of his brothers, alleging that when Brent was five, they had repeatedly sodomized him in a bathroom in the school basement. Brent’s brother, 

Clayne, another victim of these attacks, committed suicide. In 

2004, when Brent filed a lawsuit against the prophet, Jeffs responded to this legal action the same way he had to the American 

Government and to our criminal justice system: He had ignored 

them. As the FLDS prophet, he has also ignored: 

No. 1, the child labor laws of Arizona, Utah, and Nevada. Young 

FLDS boys were sent off to work in the church’s construction companies, and because they were hard-working and unpaid, the sect 

could underbid the competition and generate both private and Government business. One FLDS-run company, New Era Manufacturing, has a Department of Defense contract for aircraft wheel and 

brake manufacturing worth $1.2 million. JNJ Engineering has an 

$11.3 million deal with the Las Vegas Valley Water District. A 

25 

third FLDS company, Paragon Contractors Corporation, has been 

fined more than $10,000 by the U.S. Department of Labor for employing 12- to 15-year-old boys and not paying them. 

No. 2, Jeffs ignored the Mann Act, which makes it illegal for minors to cross State lines for sexual purposes. As the prophet, he 

routinely commanded men to marry women and teenage girls in secret ceremonies in Caliente, Nevada, across the border from the 

FLDS home base in the twin towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado 

City, Arizona. 

No. 3, Jeffs ignored the laws against bigamy and underage marriage in Arizona and Utah, selecting the men who would receive 

new brides and joining them in ‘‘spiritual marriages.’’ These ‘‘plural 

wives’’ with dependent children then became eligible for welfare 

payments—and welfare fraud. Colorado City has received eight 

times the welfare assistance of comparably sized towns in the area. 

Despite violating these laws, Colorado City has been awarded $1.9 

million from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to pave the streets and improve the fire department and 

water system; more than $12 million a year from Arizona in health 

insurance premiums for the poor; and a $2.8 million airport from 

Washington, D.C. The FLDS openly despises the American Government while taking its money, a tactic they call ‘‘bleeding the beast.’’ 

No. 4, Jeffs ignored the fate of hundreds of teenage males in his 

community—known as ‘‘Lost Boys’’—after they rebelled against 

forced child labor and his other harsh rules. He tossed them out 

of Colorado City and Hildale by the hundreds, leaving them to fend 

for themselves on the streets of St. George, Utah, Salt Lake City, 

and Las Vegas. Some of the young men broke laws and were arrested, burdening local police departments and publicly funded social services. 

No. 5, Jeffs ignored outside law enforcement because the border 

towns’ police force was made up of FLDS members utterly loyal to 

their prophet. After Jeffs had gone underground to avoid arrest, 

Colorado City Police Chief Fred Barlow wrote him the following letter: ‘‘Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as 

the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head 

of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day 

and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow 

the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William 

Timpson...I am praying for you to be protected and yearn to be 

with you again...And I know that you have the right to rule in all 

aspects of my life...’’ 

No. 6, Jeffs ignored the genetic disorders caused by the sect’s inbreeding. In Colorado City and Hildale, Phoenix pediatric neurologist Dr. Theodore Tarby uncovered the largest occurrence in the 

world of a rare disease called Fumarese Deficiency, which produces 

overly large heads, misshapen brains, deformities, seizures, and 

even death. The severe condition was one more drain on public 

moneys needed for medical care. 

No. 7, following his arrest, Jeffs and his lawyers successfully 

fought efforts to get at FLDS financial records, stored on computers 

in the vehicle in which the prophet had been traveling. No complete picture exists of the FLDS income streams that supported 

Jeffs’ lavish fugitive lifestyle, paid his colossal legal bills or other 

26 

vast expenses. In 2003, the FLDS bought the Texas ranch for about 

$700,000. Today it has an assessed value of $20.5 million. Where 

did all the funds come from for these improvements, and for other 

purchases of land in South Dakota and more recently in Colorado? 

Has money been laundered or taxes evaded? 

Until the FLDS is thoroughly investigated by those with subpoena power, the full extent of the sect’s sexual abuse, forced marriage, underage marriage, and financial schemes will remain unknown. A nationwide network now exists of people who have escaped the FLDS and understand its workings from the inside out. 

They have spent years trying to get law enforcement to investigate 

the sect more fully, are willing to testify against Jeffs and his 

church, and they would welcome Federal action. The FLDS has become both a national phenomenon and a national problem—creating generations of victims spread across the Southwest. None of 

this is about religious freedom or faith, and FLDS members should 

not be treated any differently from any other American citizen. 

This is about uncovering and prosecuting individual criminal behavior by those who have violated State and Federal laws, which 

is the best way to stop those who terrorize in the name of God. 

I respectfully ask you to consider these words and warnings from 

someone who has spent more than 2 years investigating this sect. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Singular appears as a submission for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you, Mr. Singular. 

Our next witness is Dr. Dan Fischer, who was the first-born of 

36 children in an FLDS family in Salt Lake City. He eventually left 

the community and started Ultradent Products, Incorporated, a 

dental products company. Dr. Fischer also started the Diversity 

Foundation, which, among other things, provides shelter and counseling to hundreds of teens expelled from polygamous enclaves, 

known as ‘‘Lost Boys.’’ To quote Utah Attorney General Mark 

Shurtleff, ‘‘Dr. Fischer is a remarkable man. He has done more for 

the Lost Boys than everyone else combined.’’ 

Dr. Fischer, we are proud to have you with us. 

STATEMENT OF DAN FISCHER, SANDY, UTAH 

Mr. FISCHER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the 

Committee. Thank you for inviting me here today. 

As was mentioned, I was born in this society. My father had 

three wives. I am or at least was the oldest of 36 children. 

I left the FLDS 12 years ago. I have witnessed for 50 years the 

pivotal changes that brought FLDS to what they are today. 

I am a co-founder with Micha Barach of the Diversity Foundation. Over the last 4 years, the foundation has been significantly 

engaged in helping about 230 expelled FLDS young people, most of 

them male. 

When I travel across America and to international destinations, 

should the subject of FLDS and polygamy arise, the first expression 

is disbelief. How could this be occurring in America and in the 21st 

century? 

Reality: The problems caused by the FLDS leadership are unacceptable whether they were a polygamous or monogamous society. 

27 

Too often wrongful actions occur under the smoke screen of polygamy or religious freedom. Unfortunately, FLDS polygamy has degenerated to a cult that is far from benign. 

It would be a mistake to assume that FLDS people are not intelligent and/or less than actively engaged in life. In fact, many FLDS 

are intelligent and hard-working. Many are very proficient with 

modern technology, even sophisticated surveillance and the like. 

For example, in 2005, the former special investigator for the Utah 

Attorney General’s office, Ron Barton, shared with me that approximately $600,000 had been granted to the FLDS Colorado City 

police by the Federal Government under the provisions of the new 

Homeland Security program to attain sophisticated surveillance 

equipment. There is good reason to believe they have learned to 

use it for multiple purposes. 

The FLDS feel that they are a suppressed and persecuted people. 

They have banded together in a virtual underground way characteristic with what occurs when leadership of any society takes 

total control of both spiritual and temporal life. Their prophet is as 

their God. Whatever he says takes precedent over any previous 

scripture of any previous century. It can also take precedent over 

the laws of the United States. 

Without question, FLDS members will sacrifice self, family, and 

children if directed by their leader. Their salvation and exaltation, 

as taught by their prophet, is dependent on them obeying totally 

what their prophet requests no matter what. 

Who one is married to and when—including underage marriage—is totally under the control of FLDS leadership. If a young 

woman refuses to marry a man the prophet tells her to, she comes 

under extreme pressure. And if she chooses someone on her own, 

she may be branded with, in essence, the ‘‘scarlet letter.’’ If a young 

man, on the other hand, shows any interest in a girl, he is ‘‘kicked 

out of town.’’ Regardless the reason a boy is expelled, the directive 

falls under the control of the leadership. 

In more recent years, the FLDS have moved to extreme tactics 

to ‘‘bleed the beast,’’ namely, the U.S. Government. Some men and 

businesses will even take out bankruptcy so as to keep more moneys funneled toward the benefit of the leadership. 

Warren Jeffs has been known to recommend the book ‘‘The Third 

Reich.’’ Warren has had objectionable school books destroyed. Not 

unlike the environment in Nazi Germany, Jeffs encourages young 

people to tell on the wrongs of their parents, siblings, and friends. 

He eliminated the possibility of public education for them in 1998. 

Immediately, over 1,200 children lost a quality education. You can 

multiply the number affected by 2 to 3 times after a 10-year period. 

Probably one of the greatest atrocities Warren Jeffs has brought 

upon the FLDS has been the decimation of families. Since around 

1998, about 250 married men of all ages and some with multiple 

wives, children, and grandchildren have been expelled. Their wives 

will not object. They have been taught even by their own husband 

for years that obedience to the prophet must supersede even their 

love or devotion to him. Many of these wives and married children 

are instructed to change their last names to that of the new father. 

This destroys a family, a heritage, a lineage, and the basic glue 

that holds a society together. This plus being cutoff from family 

28 

and community often contributes to much of the post-traumatic 

syndrome issues that we deal with working with the Lost Boys. 

In 1998, my family was destroyed by Jeffs. If you find another 

2 or 3 minutes in this program, I will share with you the events 

as they transpired. It is a chilling story. It happened when I was 

50 years old. I had nightmares for a year. I still have nightmares. 

The most tragic atrocity caused by the current FLDS leadership 

relates to children. I have often said: ‘‘Keep your eye on the ball 

and the ball is the children.’’ We know what can occur in the mind 

of a young child when they are involved in even a typical divorce 

in which there is a presiding judge who has the duty of determining what is in the best interest of the child. Who looks out for 

the children when FLDS families are destroyed on the order of 

Jeffs? 

Imagine the horror and terror that must occur in their tender 

minds when they wake up one day to the realization that their father is no longer their father; that he will not be hugging them, 

talking to him, or even interacting with them ever again. And then 

imagine what must be going through their young minds as they 

discover their mother is married within days to another man who 

is then kissing and making babies with her. Imagine the scarring 

that will continue in that young mind for a lifetime. 

The instant and spontaneous mandate of divorce and remarriage 

is just one example affecting lives of families and individuals when 

due process of law can be circumvented. 

We believe this atrocity has harmed in excess of 1,000 American 

children. For some this has occurred multiple times with them 

drug ‘‘family’’ to ‘‘family’’ and potentially spread over multiple 

States. I believe this ongoing atrocity has and will continue to increase the likelihood of additional child abuse of multiple dimensions. One of our esteemed Senators, Hubert Humphrey, said something to the effect: You can measure the quality of a society by the 

level of importance they put on protecting their most vulnerable 

citizens. No Americans are more vulnerable and more precious 

than our children. 

The Diversity Foundation was founded about 10 years ago. It 

was founded for the purpose of furthering a better understanding 

with America’s youth of the value of diverse races, religions, and 

backgrounds. For the last 4 years it has been substantially engaged 

in helping young men who have been expelled or left the FLDS society. This weaning of the flock of males continues even though the 

boys may try to return home, and even when a court order attempts to send them home. This is the case in spite of many prominent FLDS claiming there are no Lost Boys, but only rebellious 

boys as found in other societies. Included in my submission are 

short audio clips of Jeffs teaching young people, grades 5 to 8, how 

and for whom the prophet decides to ‘‘kick out of town.’’ Listening 

to it brings another dimension to the problem. 

Diversity’s greatest expenditures with the castaway young men 

are for education and psychological counseling. Imagine the challenge that exists for a 13-year-old who must make it on his own. 

Imagine the challenge that occurs for a 20-year-old who can neither 

read nor write or does not even know multiplication tables—someone who was kept out of school to work in heavy construction at 

29 

a very young age, their earnings going to family or FLDS leadership. Tragically, some of these young boys have even died in accidents on constructionsites. 

In a cloistered polygamous society, simple math and biology tells 

us some boys must either become bachelors for life or leave. More 

recently, a few young girls have come out. Counter to Jeffs’s view 

of boys as expendable, FLDS characteristically fight hard to keep 

their girls. Multiple years of expelling free spirits plus downgrading and preventing education ultimately rapes a society. Hitler 

and Stalin killed their self thinkers and intellectuals. Jeffs prevents or expels them. 

I value our religious freedoms. However, claims of freedom of religion should not be allowed to blind us to the many illegal and unconscionable activities of FLDS leadership. I invite Congress to 

take appropriate measures to protect all innocent parties, but especially children. As was once said, ‘‘Doing the right thing is not always easy but it is always the right thing.’’ 

Thank you, 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Fischer appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Thank you, Dr. Fischer. 

Our next witness is Carolyn Jessop. Carolyn Jessop was born 

into a polygamous family. When she was 18, Ms. Jessop was forced 

to marry a 50-year-old man. She was his fourth wife. Over the 

course of 15 years, Ms. Jessop had eight children and lived with 

her husband and his wives in Colorado City, Arizona. Early one 

morning, in the spring of 2003, Ms. Jessop packed her eight children into a van and escaped from Merril and the polygamous community. They fled to Salt Lake City, and in 2007, Ms. Jessop coauthored a book, ‘‘Escape,’’ about her life in the polygamous community and her escape from the community. We welcome her here 

to the Committee. 

Ms. Jessop? 

STATEMENT OF CAROLYN JESSOP, WEST JORDAN, UTAH 

Ms. JESSOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Judiciary Committee. It is both a privilege and an honor for me to be 

here today. I am here today to inform this panel about my firsthand experiences of the systematic abuse and the disregard for the 

law within the FLDS which leads to the isolation of its most vulnerable individuals within any community—women and children, 

who live without the protection of laws that most Americans take 

for granted. 

In my experience in Colorado City, Arizona, the mayor, many 

city officials, the chief of police, and every police officer were all 

members of the FLDS and were essentially hand-picked by church 

leaders. 

If a woman was beaten by her husband and called the police, she 

was typically told by the police officer that she was ‘‘married to a 

good man,’’ and if she were obedient, ‘‘there would not be any problems.’’ The police would not interfere with their religious teachings. 

This gave a man the right to discipline his household. 

FLDS women were expected to drive unlicensed, unregistered, 

uninsured cars around the community. I was never once pulled 

30 

over by a local police officer for this infraction. This meant that I 

had transportation within the community, but I could not drive beyond its borders without being stopped. 

I would like to just insert here that the day I left to escape with 

my children, I drove out of that community in an unlicensed, uninsured vehicle. If Merril Jessop would have called the police, that 

is the very thing. They would have pulled me over and prevented 

my escape, and I would have been charged for that. 

The night I escaped with my children, I knew I could not go to 

the local police for protection because they would be the first men 

that Merril would call to hunt me down. The result of this collusion 

between the FLDS and police is that there is nowhere to turn for 

a woman who is seeking refuge from an abusive situation. 

Boys and girls, often as young as 12, are required to leave school 

and work for the FLDS businesses, which were often construction 

firms. It is not uncommon for these children to be required to be 

on the work site by 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. in the morning and work until 

dark, which could be as late as 9 p.m. in the summer. 

My oldest son Arthur was one of these children. He was 12 when 

he was pulled out of religious school, the only education available 

at the time to FLDS children. He was sent to work for his halfbrother’s business. This was not a summer job. This was full-time, 

year-round employment of sorts. My son was not paid. 

In Colorado City, I did not know a safe place I could go to report 

child labor abuse. I could not report it to local authorities because 

they were all part of the FLDS. I feared if I went outside of the 

community to Child Protective Services I would be held accountable because I was his mother. 

I knew, as does every woman in the FLDS, that polygamy is an 

illegal lifestyle. We fear going to any service agencies outside our 

community because of the risk that we would get into trouble instead of being helped. We are all multi-generational Americans, but 

we have the same fears as any illegal immigrant. I know I did not 

believe I had the same constitutional rights as other Americans. 

In 2002, as Warren Jeffs increased his tyrannical hold on the 

FLDS, all FLDS children were taken out of public schools and 

placed in religious schools. The focus moved from teaching reading, 

writing, and mathematics to Warren Jeffs’s tapes, which indoctrinated the children into such beliefs as these. If a man is instructed 

by the FLDS prophet to take the life of another human being, he 

should do so in humility. 

All school materials had to be authorized and approved by Warren Jeffs, which meant that religious schools did not have access 

to normal educational textbooks. In the FLDS school my children 

attended, there was no one with a college education. It was forbidden. To the best of my knowledge, none of the teachers were certified. No standardized tests were ever given to measure a child’s 

learning progress. This is creating a generation that is functionally 

illiterate. After we escaped 5 years ago, my children started in public schools. They were already at least 3 years behind academically. 

In 2006, after Warren Jeffs was arrested, the religious schools in 

Colorado City and Hildale were closed. Parents were told to keep 

their children home and pray for the destruction of ‘‘the wicked.’’ 

Approximately 700 households of FLDS member families were afVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:46 Oct 08, 2008 Jkt 044773 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\44773.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
31 

fected by this order, and for the last 2 years, the majority of FLDS 

children residing in Colorado City and Hildale have not been registered for either home schooling or religious schooling. Their education has essentially stopped. 

Somewhere toward the end of 2001, Warren Jeffs started taking 

young girls who were between the ages of 14 and 16 from Colorado 

City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, to Merril Jessop’s hotel in Nevada to perform secret marriages. While not all men in the FLDS 

have plural marriages and engage in sex with underage girls, it is 

considered socially acceptable and religiously desirable behavior, 

especially under the leadership of Warren Jeffs. 

In 2003, one of the main reasons I fled with my eight children 

was that Betty, my oldest daughter, was about to turn 14, the age 

at which young girls were being married. After I escaped, Merril 

subsequently married two 16-year-old girls: one was to him from an 

FLDS group in Canada, the other was sent from Hildale, Utah to 

his home in Colorado City, Arizona. I know this because Merril introduced these teenage girls to my children as his new wife. 

I speak truthfully and from firsthand experience when I say that 

I was not free to leave my husband or this religion. From the time 

I took my first steps away from Merril Jessop, I needed legal protection. 

It took 21⁄2 years before I received any housing assistance. Because of the number of my children, I did not qualify for low-income housing. I was told by a State employee that I qualified in 

terms of need for refugee services. However, these services are only 

available for people coming from other countries. In other words, 

there is more help for a woman fleeing the persecution of a communist country than there is for a woman fleeing from polygamy. 

Women leaving close polygamous communities need physical protection, psychological intervention, and emotional support for themselves and their children. They need appropriate housing assistance, most of which exists for women with only three or four children. 

When I first fled, I felt like I had landed on another planet. I had 

only limited exposure to the outside world, a world I had been 

brainwashed to believe from birth was evil. My rights to my own 

life and liberty were taken from me when I was forced to marry 

Merril Jessop. I never knew what it meant to feel safe until I was 

35 years old and went into hiding on the third day of freedom after 

our escape. It took me a year before I could think of myself as a 

person, not an object. 

I stand here today to ask the U.S. Government to provide Federal oversight to closed FLDS communities so the FLDS members 

who are seeking refuge know where they can find a safe haven if 

they choose to leave. I stand here today to ask the U.S. Government to see that the laws of this land are reliably and equally enforced in FLDS communities as they are in the rest of the United 

States. I stand here today to ask the Government to guarantee that 

reasonable education be provided for FLDS children, the same as 

it is for other American children. I stand here today to ask the U.S. 

Government, my Government, to show up for FLDS children the 

same as it does with respect to all of its other citizens. This would 

32 

not be religious persecution, just equal protection, equal enforcement of the law. 

Thank you for inviting me to testify today. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Jessop appears as a submission 

for the record.] 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Well, thank you for your testimony, and 

thank you to all of the witnesses. Each of you in your own way has 

really been remarkable: Mr. Singular, in your persistence in investigating and bringing to light these practices; Dr. Fischer, in surviving them and turning what happened to you into such a force 

for good for the Lost Boys that, as you point out, are produced by 

biology and mathematics in a polygamous community; and perhaps 

most astonishingly, to you, Ms. Jessop, who at such a young age 

with so many young children dependent on you, with so little support behind you, and with a completely uncertain future in an unknown world, in fact, in front of you, nevertheless took the courageous step of stepping into that unknown and away from everything that you knew and pursued freedom you knew that you and 

they deserved. It is a very impressive story. 

I am not going to ask questions at this point. I am going to defer 

to Senator Hatch. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. I will not ask many questions. 

But, Dr. Fischer, I think you should be commended for how generous you have been with your resources and through your organization, the Diversity Foundation. You mentioned in your statement 

the FLDS polygamy has ‘‘degenerated into a cult that is far from 

benign,’’ if I have quoted you correctly. What do you think has 

changed in the FLDS church over the past several years to warrant 

your making that statement? 

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, I think the first significant changes occurred 

around 1957, 1958, when it became church policy mandating that 

courtship stop, that young people would be married strictly by appointment of the leadership. This puts a tremendous magnitude of 

power within a leadership. 

I believe another factor was the institution around the same time 

of a young man’s missionary program in which they would work for 

2 to 3 years for the church. If they proved to be worthy, obedient, 

they were given a ‘‘blessing,’’ namely, a wife. 

I see also the milestones of increased pressures for the law of 

consecration in which, if you were FLDS living in Salt Lake, you 

should have your home, your title assigned over to the leadership. 

This was a given in Short Creek. 

I see in the mid-1980s then a very aged prophet, a gentleman so 

well respected by FLDS for his human and family values, even in 

spite of the laws against polygamy, who as he became older, and 

with some of the priesthood council split and Rulon Jeffs only 

standing by him, putting in place a scary precedent. 

It evolved in that time that Leroy Johnson should be looked at 

as the one man who was virtually as God; and, furthermore, that, 

in fact, he would never die. And then it evolved to where the world 

would end in the year 2000, which brings another tremendous 

amount of fear to membership. 

It also became common teaching, often from the pulpit, that God 

would not allow a mentally compromised individual to sit in the caVerDate Aug 31 2005 13:46 Oct 08, 2008 Jkt 044773 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\44773.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC
33 

pacity of prophet of that society. So by the time Warren was able 

to grasp the reins—Warren, I believe firmly, is not a normal 

human—I lived with him with my own children in the Alta Academy—It enabled him to immediately be looked at as a virtual god, 

and it became virtually impossible for people to be able to speak 

frankly so to say this guy is stuck in the mud. He is not only stuck 

in the mud, he has a blown engine. 

It is a remarkable set of circumstances that have brought them 

to this point. 

Senator HATCH. Well, thank you. 

Ms. Jessop, I, too, applaud your courage and determination, and 

without a doubt you have been through an awful lot. The experience that you outlined in your statement, the various experiences 

were very moving and we are grateful that you could be here and 

help us here today. 

Now, in your testimony you mentioned that you previously did 

not believe that you had the same constitutional rights as other 

Americans. Could you elaborate on that a little bit more? 

Ms. JESSOP. That involves the fact that I knew if I went to authorities, I would be viewed as a criminal. So I did not believe 

that—I mean, I did not see myself as a normal citizen. 

Senator HATCH. I see. 

Ms. JESSOP. And so I just believed that, you know, I did not have 

access to the same protections. 

The other thing, the other element, is there were substantial 

holes in my education. I did go to public school within the FLDS, 

but as I covered in my statement, I did not read. But the administration were all FLDS, so were the teachers, most of the teachers. 

And it was not at all uncommon to receive a textbook with chapters 

cut out. So I did have substantial holes in my education as to what 

my rights were and how I was protected. 

Senator HATCH. I see. Now, I understand that Arizona and Utah 

both established 24-hour toll-free hotlines operated by professional 

counselors to talk about child abuse and domestic violence. Do you 

believe that the victims in the polygamous communities are aware 

of these hotlines? And if so, do they have the fear of using them? 

Ms. JESSOP. I know that those hotlines were established after I 

talked to Mr. Shurtleff about my experience and how difficult it 

was for me to get out of the community. There have been individuals that have donated signs to help fund some of the awareness. 

So I believe that there is some awareness. I do not know how 

much. I do think that people are terrified to use those lines because, if they do—if you want to try leaving the society, failure is 

not an option. You cannot fail. I am sure that an individual would 

be terrified in using that line and if somebody overheard them talking. Will there be appropriate help? How quickly will it come? 

There are a lot of concerns. 

Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Senator Cardin? 

Senator CARDIN. Well, I want to join with the Chairman and 

Senator Hatch in thanking you for appearing here, and I admire 

your courage in doing the investigations or what you have done in 

escaping the circumstances and turning this around to try to help 

other people. I thank you for that. 

34 

I would just like to give an analogy to an issue that the United 

States has been in the forefront in the international community, 

and that is, we have led the fight against the trafficking mainly of 

young women, but also boys, internationally, and have been responsible for the change of laws in other countries and the international organizations establishing the ability to help countries 

deal with the issues of trafficking. 

What happens in trafficking is that in many cases there are different entities that are involved with telling women there are opportunities in other countries and they either transport them illegally or they keep their travel documents and keep their money so 

that they are involved in prostitution or other types of child labor 

issues and are trapped. And if they try to leave, there is no opportunity to leave because they do not have their documents, they do 

not have any money, and if they go to the local police, the local police look at them as criminals, as you pointed out, Ms. Jessop. As 

you sought services, you were looked at as being different, that you 

did something wrong; you were involved in a polygamous marriage, 

therefore, you were a criminal. 

And it took us a long time to get it through that you are a victim, 

and the people that are involved here are victims. And I think, Ms. 

Jessop, your recommendation that there be services available, that 

we treat the people who have been trapped in these circumstances 

as victims, until we get that through, I think it is going to be very 

difficult to deal with these colonies. 

I am pleased that Senator Reid in his legislation acknowledges 

this and provides for help for victims. And I think we need to do 

a better job in the way that we get public attention to this issue. 

I raised with the last panel that those that are involved as public 

officials in communities that do nothing about it, to me they are 

the ones that really need to be focused on, because they are allowing this to continue. 

I think Senator Hatch’s point about making it clear that there 

is going to be help available so that people feel comfortable to come 

forward, that this will be immediate and it will be effective in 

being able to escape the traps that are currently available. 

So, again, I want to thank you for giving us a face to this issue. 

I know it is not easy to be here today, and I thank all three of our 

witnesses. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. I thank Senator Cardin for his observation. Senator Cardin has really distinguished himself in the Senate 

for his concern and work on international human rights issues. 

And I had not really thought of it before, but the trafficking analogy is really quite a good one. It is sort of trafficking in place. But 

the abuse, the lack of choice, the dependence—all of the elements 

that create the sort of aura of servitude and loss of freedom that 

is sort of the underlying concern about trafficking. It is not the 

travel that is the problem with trafficking. It is the servitude, and 

really that I think is what we are seeing here. 

I just have one question. Attorney General Abbott in his testimony mentioned that this organization had what he described as 

unlimited resources. And Ms. Jessop in her testimony mentioned 

that this organization has vast resources. I wonder if each of you 

35 

would care to comment briefly on any measure you might be able 

to give us, either precise or just sort of by comparison, of what you 

believe the extent of the resources are under the control of this organization. Mr. Singular? 

Mr. SINGULAR. Well, we know that when the heat started to 

come on them in Utah and Arizona, they began buying land in 

South Dakota. They bought 1,700 acres in Texas. They bought a 

couple of pieces of property in western Colorado. More recently, 

they have been buying several more pieces of property on the other 

side of the mountains in Colorado, south-central Colorado. We 

know Jeffs had a high-powered set of attorneys during his legal incarceration and trial. He is on trial again in Arizona. I talked in 

my presentation about the land going from $700,000 to $20.5 million. I was on the property a couple of months ago. Very impressive 

buildings there. 

There seems to be endless income streams coming into the sect 

from all different sources, and I think that is really what needs to 

be investigated. There has been talk of them creating dummy corporations all around the West and laundering money through them 

and that needs to be looked into. That has occurred in Nevada, and 

I believe has occurred in Wyoming. It is one of the ways that they 

buy property and move money around. It is also the way that they 

keep this from being traced back to church leaders like Jeffs. They 

filter it through these corporations. 

As I mentioned in here, again, there are private investigators 

who have looked into this. There are a number of people who 

should be brought forward in front of the task force who have more 

information, who have spent years looking into this, who can show 

where the money is being filtered and laundered, if it is, and that 

is what needs to be pursued. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Dr. Fischer, do you have any observation 

on the extent of their wealth and resources? 

Mr. FISCHER. Yes. Even connecting to lands being consecrated to 

the priested, from even back in the mid-1930s, and, in fact, Colorado City-Hildale was established by their forefathers, if you will, 

and all lumped into what was a ‘‘united effort’’ fund or trust with 

all of the properties held in common. This had been the case until 

a judge determined Warren unfit to administer the ‘‘united efforts’’ 

trust. Prior to that, Warren had men selling off parcels of these 

properties which I am sure helped fund many of his activities from 

Texas to South Dakota and the like. 

There was a large ranch, for example, that was owned by the 

Steed family bordering Bryce Canyon, a fabulous large spread. It 

was a very important piece for even providing food and sustenance 

to poor members of the community. This was sold off, I am told, 

for about $8 million. I am sure these type of sales have helped him 

immensely. 

My younger brother, Shem, who is one of the few who have gotten out, the only one of my brothers of my father’s first two wives, 

save myself, shares how, when visiting another company in the 

FLDS, how the employees have not been paid for some three to 

four pay periods. They were invited to take vouchers in lieu of paychecks to obtain things in trade and with the direct communication 

to them that this would prevent the need for paying taxes. 

36 

It is important to note that Warren Jeffs with his father in the 

early 1990s began a systematic takeover of all the businesses in 

which the owners were expected to sign the ownership of their 

businesses over to FLDS/Jeffs leadership. This furthermore keeps 

many of these people in line. A sad fallout is that certainly mixing 

church and state is a problem, but mixing church and businesses 

is goofy. 

And it leads me to one other factor that I failed to mention to 

you, Senator Hatch, on the subject of the changes. One of the most 

significant changes that came about occurred starting in the midto later 1990s in which, to our horror, it became evident that not 

only did this leadership now possess the ability of determining who 

one married but additionally had the ability to determine for how 

long they stayed married and what happened to them by a unilateral determination. And that is when the massive annihilation of 

families started in which at just a phone call, as early as 4:30 a.m. 

for my father’s family. All were invited to the Jeffs compound. 

Rulon presided. My younger brother, Shem, was there. He wrote a 

firsthand account. If you do not mind, Mr. Chairman, I am going 

to read his report. I think it is important you understand that this 

magnitude of control will cause men, young people, and others to 

do whatever they are told, to work for nothing, even to generate 

moneys to support this prophet. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Proceed. 

Mr. FISCHER. Shem states: ‘‘On or about October 1999, the sound 

of the ringing telephone awoke me at about 4:30 a.m. at my Hildale 

home. The trembling sound of my mother, Mary Zitting Fischer, 

was faintly audible as she delivered the following message: ‘Shem, 

dear, you and your family need to get dressed and meet me at 

Uncle Rulon’s place at 5:30 a.m. this morning. I have been released 

from your father.’ ’’ 

This means divorced. 

‘‘I have been released from your father, and it is important you 

attend the meeting this morning and get instructions from our 

prophet as to what you should do.’’ 

‘‘There was never any indication of any problem of this magnitude with my father or our family, so such came as a total shock. 

Astonished by what I had just heard, I began asking questions. 

Mom simply said, ‘Shem, be at Uncle Rulon’s at 5:30 a.m.’ ’’ 

‘‘Then came the audible click of the phone followed by the dial 

tone. I awoke my wife and children and helped get them dressed, 

then made the trip up the street to Uncle Rulon’s home on Utah 

Avenue, a few blocks away. Upon arrival, I discovered my dad’s 

three wives assembled with many of my other brothers and sisters. 

They were huddled in the center of the large front room located 

just inside the front entrance of Rulon Jeffs’s sprawling hilltop 

home. To my surprise, my dad was not invited, nor was he in attendance. Several of my siblings were crying, and many of my 

brothers were obviously torn about the situation.’’ 

‘‘After several minutes, Warren could be seen assisting his father, Rulon Jeffs, across the room to a big overstuffed armchair. 

Rulon was very gray, feeble, and he was using oxygen. The room 

slowly grew quiet except for the occasional sound of a child’s sob. 

Warren Jeffs began by saying our father was not worthy of his 

37 

three wives, and the time was too short for him to repent. He had 

lost the power of his priesthood. We needed to lift up his wives and 

preserve them from the destruction that would soon cover the 

North and South American continents. Warren went on to assure 

us that his father, Rulon, had prayed about this for quite some 

time and this was the will of God.’’ 

‘‘All of my father’s sons were admonished to support ‘God’s will’ 

in this decision and to support God’s prophet on the Earth at this 

time.’’ 

‘‘Suddenly, Warren Jeffs was interrupted by my 8-year-old sister, 

Lily Ann Fischer. Sobbing profusely, Lily said, ‘Is there no hope at 

all for my father’s salvation? Can’t he repent and get his family 

back?’ Without hesitation, Warren simply said, cold and calm, ‘No. 

The time is too short. There is no hope for your father to gain the 

highest degree of salvation.’ ’’ 

‘‘His voice was so very cold and direct as he continued to direct 

dad’s family to support their actions. Warren asked all the sons to 

show their support by shaking hands with him and his father, 

Rulon, who was slumped over and drooling on himself.’’ 

‘‘At that point, I became very conflicted with the proceedings and 

exited the room with my family without shaking hands with Warren and his father. The blood was cast in the water at that time, 

and I knew Warren would soon take action to cut me off from my 

family and the social community I had known for 30-plus years.’’ 

‘‘Within 5 days, all three of my mothers were assigned to other 

men, one of them my biological mother’’—Shem’s biological mother—‘‘and the biological sons of each mother were encouraged to 

drop their surname ‘‘Fischer’’ and take up the surname of their 

new father. My mother married Rulon Jeffs, who was married earlier to my two biological sisters, Mary and Ruth. My mother 

(Shem’s) became something like Rulon’s 57th wife. Rachel, Dan’s 

mother ’’—myself—‘‘was married to Dan Jessop, Senior, and Robin 

was married to Alan Steed, who had also previously been married 

to my little sister, Sarah, but was later remarried, with all the 

other wives of Alan’s, to Dean Cook, when Alan’s family was destroyed and he was sent to ‘‘repent from afar’’—meaning Robin 

Fischer with her children were now passed on to a third man. 

‘‘My father was given 4 hours to remove his personal effects from 

the home he had built over a 30-year period. He was instructed to 

move into the upstairs unfinished space of his son Lorin’s house. 

He was instructed to continue to provide financial support for his 

minor children even though he could no longer visit or associate 

with them.’’ 

‘‘Things became extremely difficult for me over the next several 

months. Warren became extremely bold in delivering modern-day 

revelations by his father Rulon Jeffs. In mid-July 2000, Warren delivered a sermon at a general meeting and told the FLDS faithful 

to stop doing business with apostates’’—apostates are those who 

have left—‘‘and to remove any apostate employee from their business. As a result of this sermon, John Musser, a quality employee, 

was fired. I opposed this action and was eventually called to meet 

with Warren Jeffs and his legal advocate, Sam Barlow, to determine my fate.’’ 

38 

‘‘After 2 hours of frustrating discussions with Warren, he instructed Sam Barlow to remove me from the UEP property and to 

make sure I never again associated with any of the FLDS faithful. 

I was soon evicted from my home and the family business I had 

helped to build my entire life. I was age 40. It is a hell of a feeling 

to all at once discover you are in forfeit at age 40.’’ 

‘‘I tried contacting brothers. To the few who would talk to me on 

the phone, I tried to explain to them my experience with Warren 

and that he was abnormal. This goes nowhere, obviously. I managed to talk to my father. He said that it was God’s will and, furthermore’’—and now we are talking November 1999—‘‘that the end 

of the world was imminent, which he believed to his core.’’ 

‘‘I said, ‘Dad, Dad, please trust me. The world is going to continue after the year 2000.’ He gave me evidence that it wouldn’t, 

even citing the example of that rare’’—my mind went blank, when 

you have not a hurricane but a spiral cloud. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Tornado? 

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, when that strange tornado went through Salt 

Lake and killed one of our Utah citizens. Dad claimed that that 

was a manifestation from God that the end was near. He claimed 

other manifestations. 

‘‘I said, ‘Dad, how about we meet in the year 2001 and we talk 

about it? ’ He wouldn’t commit. So I said: ‘Dad, let’s meet in the 

year 2002.’ He wouldn’t commit. so I said, ‘Dad, how about we talk 

in 2003? ’ He said, ‘Well, OK, maybe.’ ’’ 

We never had the chance for that conversation to occur. My father put a lot of miles on his car every year in his business. He 

could drive 50,000 miles a year. He was known to go to sleep at 

the wheel. It had become family practice, if he was making trips 

beyond town, that an older child who had a driver’s license would 

go and drive for him. Once he approached the home that he had 

built over 30 years, now occupied by Alan Steed, who had been 

married to his third wife, with many of her children, including 

older teenage sons in the house, to ask if one of his sons could come 

with him. In a scornful voice, he said, ‘‘Whose sons? ’’ And he found 

he had to drive alone. He was in his mid-seventies. 

At a stretch of the freeway between Hurricane and St. George, 

he plowed into one of the only deep ravines for some distance. 

There weren’t any skid marks. Did he go to sleep? Possibly. Did he 

just decide to plow it in? Possibly. Do I hold Warren responsible? 

In either case, yes. 

There have been men who have even committed suicide upon 

these atrocious activities. When you have the fear and the type of 

fear that requires you and even all around you act as though you 

sustain and uphold and support the prophet—and you must—because if by any sense or measure the prophet determines that you 

are out of sync, disobedient with his desires, you can be pulled before him. He will demand confessions, even written. He will tell the 

man that God has revealed to him all of the sins and that if the 

man’s list does not match what God has revealed to him, it is a 

major problem. 

When you have that magnitude of power over men, over families, 

and when you have a people who have grown up in earlier years 

with a fabulous work ethic, as a resourceful people, especially 

39 

growing up with values—I would not exchange the values taught 

from my mother’s knee for anything. But when you gain control of 

a few thousand people who have all those values and work ethic, 

you can accomplish a lot—and, tragically, even when those resources are sadly misused. 

Senator WHITEHOUSE. Well, I very much appreciate the testimony of all of the witnesses. The time for this hearing is actually 

long past, but I thought it was worth continuing it. 

I thank you all very much. Each of you has engaged in acts of 

courage that are impressive to this Committee. We appreciate it. 

The record of this hearing will remain open for 7 days if anybody 

wishes to add anything to these proceedings, and other than that, 

the hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

[Questions and answers and submissions for the record follow.] 

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