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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS:

 PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS FOR REFRIGERATED

 BEVERAGE VENDING MACHINES

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC MEETING

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY

 SEPTEMBER 16, 2014

 + + + + +

The Public Meeting was held in Room GH-019,

1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington,

D.C., at 1:15 p.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting

Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT:

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc.

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy

SARAH BUTLER, Department of Energy

DAVE CASE, Department of Energy

JIM COLLINS, Automated Merchandising 

 Systems, Inc.

DOUGLAS DRENTEN, Crane Merchandising 

 Systems*

DAVID EDWARDS, Navigant Consulting

JEREMY GREEN, The Glover Park Group

LARRY HIEB, SandenVendo America, Inc.

CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting

RONALD MAJETTE, Department of Energy

SUBARNA MALAKAR, Crane Merchandising 

 Systems*
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PRESENT: (cont'd)

MICHAEL MAU*, Royal Vendors, Inc.JOANNA

MAUER*, Appliance Standards Awareness Project

(ASAP SCOTT MITCHELL, Southern California

Edison

MICHELLE NIEMEYER, Pacific Northwest 

 National Laboratory

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council

ELAINA PRESENT, Navigant Consulting

CATHARINE CYR RANSOM, The Glover Park Group

GREGORY ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley 

 National Laboratory

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance

MVUALA SUAMI, Natural Resources Canada 

COLLIN WEBER, Navigant Consulting

SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory

ROLANDO WILLIAMS, SandenVendo America, Inc.

SCOTT YOUNG, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory

*Participating telephonically
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Market and Technology Assessment . . . . . . .19

and Screening

Engineering Analysis . . . . . . . . . . . . .27

Preliminary Manufacturer Impact. . . . . . . .53

Analysis

Markups and Energy Use Analysis. . . . . . . .65

Life-Cycle Cost and Payback. . . . . . . . . .83

Period Analysis

Shipments and National Impact. . . . . . . . 113

Analysis

Next Steps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 122

Closing Comments from Participants . . . . . .--

Closing Remarks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 123
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:15 p.m.)

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's start

4 back up. We are going to resume. 

5 This is the second meeting of the

6 day. This would be Energy Conservation

7 Standards Public Meeting, Preliminary Analysis

8 for Refrigerated Beverage Vending Machines.

9 Today is September 16th, 1:15 in

10 the afternoon. We're here in the Forrestal

11 Building of the Department of Energy in

12 Washington, D.C.

13 My name is Doug Brookman, Public

14 Solutions in Baltimore.

15 We have already done introductions

16 once around the room. I don't think I -- are

17 there any new persons in the room? So I think

18 we are just going to proceed with the content

19 here at hand.

20 You can see the agenda on Slide

21 73. We are going to proceed with market

22 technology assessment and screening,
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1 engineering analysis, and then preliminary

2 manufacturer impact analysis, then mark-ups

3 and energy use analysis, life-cycle cost and

4 payback period analysis, shipments and

5 national impact analysis, next steps, and then

6 closing remarks from participants and any

7 other issues that need to be raised, and

8 closing remarks.

9 I would note that there is no

10 afternoon break in here. Probably we will

11 take one around about 3:00 or so.

12 Questions and comments before we

13 get into the content here? I think all of you

14 have seen these requests for comment boxes. 

15 And also, if you look at slide 75, for those

16 of you in the room and also joining us via the

17 webinar, this is how you submit written

18 comments. It's very important that you kind

19 of get this done properly, so that all of your

20 input is -- finds its way into the docket in

21 the right place.

22 Anybody that wishes to make an
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1 opening statement, an opening -- brief summary

2 comments about issues that you wish to bring

3 to the fore here at the outset? You can do

4 that now.

5 Okay. No preliminary comments. 

6 Do you want to do the regulatory history, Ron,

7 or should --

8 MR. MAJETTE: No. You know what? 

9 Since we had the same participants, the

10 regulatory history actually mirrors pretty

11 much or is very, very close to what we did

12 this morning with the test procedures. So --

13 MS. PRESENT: Similar.

14 MR. MAJETTE: -- they are very

15 similar. Is there much difference?

16 MS. PRESENT: If you look back --

17 instead of seven years, look back at --

18 MR. MAJETTE: Okay.

19 MS. PRESENT: -- there's a few

20 differences.

21 MR. MAJETTE: Okay.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want
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1 to just bring us -- walk us through that very

2 quickly?

3 MS. PRESENT: I'm doing the next

4 section, too, so I might as well stay.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think

6 sometimes it's important to note for those

7 that are either sticklers for detail or are

8 new to these proceedings. So, please proceed.

9 MS. PRESENT: Okay. So the -- it

10 starts the same. Energy Policy and

11 Conservation Act of 1975 is the ultimate

12 authority, set forth and providing a variety

13 of provisions designed to improve energy

14 efficiency and -- of various products and

15 equipment. 

16 Part B of Title 3 is the same, and

17 the direction to DOE to prescribe energy

18 conservation standards for beverage vending

19 machines. However, the first energy

20 conservation standards were published in

21 August 2009 as directed, and EPCA requires,

22 different than their test procedure, within
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1 six years after issuance of any final rule

2 establishing or amending a standard, DOE must

3 publish either a determination that existing

4 standards do not require amendments or a

5 notice of proposed rulemaking with new

6 proposed energy conservation standards. So

7 DOE is undertaking this rulemaking to meet

8 this six-year review requirement.

9 The EPCA definition of

10 refrigerated, bottled, or canned beverage

11 vending machine is the same as it was for the

12 test procedure. It is on the slide here.

13 The standards that were set in

14 2009 are on this slide here. They are the

15 current standards in place for BVMs, and the

16 compliance date was August 31st of 2012. 

17 Standards are in place for Class A, 0.055

18 times the refrigerated volume plus 2.56; Class

19 B, 0.073 times the refrigerated volume plus

20 3.16. Standards are not in place for

21 combination vending machines, though they were

22 reserved in the 2009 BVM final rule. 
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1 Combination vending machines in that rule were

2 found to be beverage vending machines that DOE

3 could put standards in place for, but they did

4 not at that time.

5 And then this is just a timeline,

6 an overview of this rulemaking. The framework

7 document was last year, last June. We are now

8 at the preliminary analysis stage, and then

9 projected we have the NOPR next year, and the

10 final rule for 2016. And that's our overview.

11 So we're going to go on and talk

12 about the various analyses that go into the

13 energy conservation standard. This is an

14 overview of all the analyses that take place

15 at the pre-analysis stage. There are

16 additional analyses that take place at the

17 NOPR stage.

18 We will be going through each of

19 these today and discussing the pre-analyses

20 that were performed, starting with the market

21 and technology assessment. The market and

22 technology assessment is where we define the
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1 product or equipment classes. DOE

2 characterizes the refrigerated beverage

3 vending machine industry, identifies existing

4 regulatory and voluntary efficiency programs,

5 gathers historical shipments and other

6 relevant market data, and identifies

7 technology options for improving efficiency.

8 When DOE is evaluating and

9 establishing energy conservation standards. 

10 The covered product is generally divided into

11 classes by the type of energy used or by the

12 capacity or other performance-related features

13 that affect efficiency.

14 In this pre-analysis, DOE used the

15 same product classes that were established in

16 the 2009 BVM final rule. As mentioned

17 earlier, they are as follows: Class A means

18 a refrigerated, bottled or canned beverage

19 vending machine that is fully cooled and is

20 not a combination vending machine, Class B is

21 not fully cooled but otherwise similar, and

22 combination vending machine means a
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1 refrigerated, bottled, or canned beverage

2 vending machine that also has non-refrigerated

3 volumes for the purpose of vending other

4 non-sealed beverage merchandise.

5 Within this pre-analysis, DOE

6 further broke down combination vending

7 machines in some portions of the analysis to

8 separate them, to disaggregate. We referred

9 to "Combo A" as combination vending machines

10 whose refrigerated compartment is fully

11 cooled. And I believe there is a typo on the

12 slide. "Combo B" units were combination

13 vending machines whose refrigerated

14 compartment is not fully cooled.

15 Going on to the characterization

16 of the market, DOE identified at this point

17 seven manufacturers that make refrigerated

18 beverage vending machines for the American

19 market. They are listed here. DOE took a

20 look into the market shares. There is a very

21 wide range of market shares held by the

22 various manufacturers. Generally, the largest
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1 market share is held by manufacturers that

2 supply beverage vending machines to bottlers.

3 And then, also DOE looked into the

4 current spread of efficiency on the market. 

5 So this particular graph is the units that are

6 currently in the certification database that

7 is publically accessible on the DOE website. 

8 These are only the Class A units, and then on

9 -- we have also plotted both the current Class

10 A DOE standard and the current E-STAR, ENERGY

11 STAR standard, just for comparison purposes.

12 So this gives an idea of the

13 spread of efficiencies currently available at

14 different sizes of Class A, and then there is

15 the same graph for Class B units. Spread of

16 efficiency, different sizes. Again, this is

17 based on the certification data for DOE.

18 Moving on to the technology

19 assessment, the basic purpose of the

20 technology assessment is to develop a

21 preliminary list of technology options that

22 could improve the efficiency of the equipment. 
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1 And this list is preliminary. It is broad,

2 and through further analyses it is examined in

3 greater detail. Technologies that are

4 inappropriate for the analyses are removed,

5 but at this point for the technology

6 assessment it's broad.

7 The method for identification, DOE

8 goes -- looks through literature, equipment

9 literature, as well as technical literature,

10 looks at what equipment is currently available

11 on the market, and of course looks heavily at

12 the comments that are provided on these

13 rulemakings and on other rulemakings at the

14 technologies that are available.

15 The technology options are

16 described in detail in Chapter 3 of the TSD. 

17 I'm not going to go into them now in detail,

18 but there is a list of the ones that were

19 considered here. These are the technology

20 options that were initially identified at the

21 end of the technology assessment for

22 consideration in this preliminary analysis.
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1 They are higher efficiency

2 lighting, higher efficiency evaporator fan

3 motors, higher efficiency evaporator fan

4 blades, improved evaporator design, low

5 pressure differential evaporators, improved or

6 thicker insulation, improved glass packs for

7 transparent front machines, higher efficiency

8 compressors, improved condenser design, higher

9 efficiency condenser fan motors, higher

10 efficiency condenser fan blades, variable

11 speed compressors, liquid suction heat

12 exchangers, higher efficiency expansion

13 valves, improved anti-sweat heaters, and low

14 power states. Low power states, of course,

15 would be contingent on the test procedure.

16 This leads us to the first request

17 for comment. So DOE welcomes input on

18 additional technology options that could

19 reduce BVM energy consumption as evaluated by

20 the DOE beverage vending machine test

21 procedure. And of course -- and anything that

22 would work with the current test procedure,
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1 any potential amended test procedure, will be

2 taken into account as appropriate depending on

3 which way the test procedure ends up.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis

5 Starr?

6 MR. STARR: So, two things. One,

7 I had a question on the graphs that --

8 MS. PRESENT: Sure.

9 MR. STARR: The ENERGY STAR --

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Which

11 graphs?

12 MR. STARR: 88 and 89. So both of

13 those. The ENERGY STAR is supposed to capture

14 the top 25 percent of the market, but it looks

15 like it is capturing not that much. Or am I

16 reading that wrong or --

17 MS. PRESENT: I mean, so ENERGY

18 STAR has been in place for a year and a half

19 now. But, yes, BVMs have a high percentage of

20 -- you know, of models that are ENERGY STAR

21 listed.

22 MR. WEBER: This is Collin Weber. 
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1 I mean, we can't speak to it -- on behalf of

2 the ENERGY STAR program. It has been

3 historically the case with BVMs that it stays

4 at higher than 25 percent of models based on

5 --

6 MR. STARR: And then, I guess the

7 other question was about the technology. So

8 I think -- I think I read in the preliminary

9 technical support document you didn't consider

10 the SNAP part of -- SNAP gases for -- as a

11 technology thing, because it wasn't approved

12 by the EPA. Is that right?

13 MS. PRESENT: SNAP gases? 

14 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler

15 from DOE. We are aware or apprised of -- you

16 know, that the SNAP rulemaking is going on. 

17 We have to look at what is current, and we

18 will keep looking at the rulemaking. And if

19 something changes, then that will be reflected

20 in our analysis. But right now we just are

21 looking at what is current.

22 MR. STARR: So do you know what
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1 the timing would be with -- what would have to

2 happen in order for you to take a look at it

3 or --

4 MS. BUTLER: I mean, SNAP would

5 have to issue a final rule.

6 MR. STARR: Okay. So that would

7 have to happen by the time you're finished

8 with this preliminary technical support

9 document?

10 MS. BUTLER: To be considered, I

11 mean, we have to look at what is -- what is

12 current and what is legal now. And then, we

13 will -- if things change, then we will be

14 apprised of what is going on in the SNAP

15 rulemaking and adjust our analysis.

16 MS. PRESENT: We did -- carbon

17 dioxide refrigerant, R-744, is currently SNAP

18 approved for BVMs, and that played into the

19 engineering analysis. But there was no

20 refrigerant-based -- it didn't play into the

21 technology analysis based on the current SNAP

22 list.
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1 MR. STARR: So it didn't play in

2 because it wasn't seen as being advantageous,

3 or what didn't --

4 MS. PRESENT: There was -- we

5 didn't -- CO2 is not generally shown to

6 increase efficiency over current baseline

7 models.

8 MR. STARR: Okay.

9 MS. PRESENT: Of course, if there

10 is anything that we should be aware of, we

11 would welcome comment on that front.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim, did

13 you have a comment?

14 MR. COLLINS: Yes. Jim Collins,

15 AMS. Just a point of order here. Slide 75,

16 the comment period is noted as closing on

17 October 7. Is that correct? The NOPR says

18 October 27.

19 MS. BUTLER: I think that is for

20 the -- this is Sarah Butler, DOE. I believe

21 October 27th is for the test procedure NOPR,

22 and October 7th is the date for the comments
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1 on the preliminary technical support document. 

2 We would encourage you to submit any requests

3 in writing regarding the comment period.

4 MR. COLLINS: Okay.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So the

6 question is that -- and the one that Elaina

7 just put to you -- what about this list of

8 technology options? Do you like them? Is it

9 complete? Are there others the Department

10 should consider? How about some feedback on

11 that list.

12 MS. PRESENT: Yes. At this stage

13 particularly, anything that is not included

14 here that should be. 

15 All right. I'm going to move

16 forward for now, but this may come up again

17 later as we go through some more of the

18 analyses. 

19 The next analysis that I'm going

20 to speak to is the screening analysis. 

21 Screening analysis is one of the analyses

22 where we take a look at the technologies that
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1 have been identified, and we -- DOE in many

2 cases will eliminate some of them.

3 DOE screens based on four factors,

4 which are -- in the screening analysis, which

5 are technological feasibility; practicability

6 to manufacture, install, and service; impacts

7 on product utility to consumers; and effects

8 on health or safety.

9 Upon application of these four

10 screening factors, no technologies were

11 screened out at this stage of the rulemaking. 

12 However, two technologies were eliminated in

13 the screening analysis due to not affecting

14 tested daily energy consumption due to either

15 the current or proposed test procedures. 

16 These were higher efficiency expansion valves

17 and liquid suction heat exchangers.

18 I am going to move right along to

19 the engineering analysis at this point, unless

20 there is any comments. 

21 So the engineering analysis, the

22 inputs are the results of the market
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1 assessment or analysis and the screening

2 analysis. And the output eventually is a set

3 of cost efficiency curves looking at the

4 energy consumption of units and the model or

5 manufacturer selling price of those units at

6 those energy consumption levels.

7 So the purpose we -- for DOE, they

8 evaluate the design options that improve

9 efficiency, and we characterize the

10 manufacturing production cost versus

11 efficiency associated with those design

12 options for higher efficiency BVMs.

13 These results, then, are the

14 inputs for three later analyses conducted by

15 the Department of Energy -- the life-cycle

16 cost and payback period analysis, the national

17 impact analysis, and the manufacturer impact

18 analysis. All three of these downstream

19 analyses will be discussed later in this

20 presentation.

21 The basic process that DOE used in

22 the engineering analysis for this preliminary
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1 analysis is on this slide. Product testing

2 was conducted, followed by teardowns of some

3 beverage vending machines, leading to design

4 options, modeled performance through energy

5 modeling, and then modeled cost and price,

6 leading finally to cost efficiency curves.

7 These will be gone into -- well,

8 the first one not so much, so for the product

9 testing DOE conducts tests according to the

10 current -- both the current and the proposed

11 DOE test procedures on a variety of beverage

12 vending machines. The other five I will be

13 going into in the following slides.

14 So for teardowns, DOE disassembles

15 completely several beverage vending machines

16 from different manufacturers. DOE then

17 creates bills of materials, which describe the

18 product components in detail including

19 estimates of materials, labor, capital

20 equipment, and overhead costs.

21 Teardowns provide information

22 regarding the baseline machine configurations
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1 that are currently on the market, as well as

2 equipment case costs and design options that

3 are currently being used to achieve both

4 baseline and higher efficiency energy

5 performance.

6 Chapter 5 of the technical support

7 document provides significant additional

8 details on DOE's teardown and cost

9 methodology.

10 After the screening analysis,

11 there were 16 technology options remaining,

12 and of those, six were removed from

13 consideration during the engineering analysis

14 due to a variety of factors, including

15 competing effects, lack of data on performance

16 or other factors. The six that were removed

17 are listed here. On the next slide I believe

18 I have the 10 that remain, and I'll go ahead

19 and read those.

20 So for the analysis conducted, the

21 following 10 technology options were included: 

22 higher efficiency lighting, higher efficiency
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1 evaporator fan motors, improved evaporator

2 design, improved or thicker insulation, higher

3 efficiency compressors, improved condenser

4 design, higher efficiency condenser fan

5 motors, improved glass pack designs for Class

6 A machines, and actually combo A machines as

7 well, lighting controls, and low power

8 refrigeration controls, timers and/or sensors.

9 I will note, however, that on the

10 -- for the six technologies that were removed,

11 we are certainly very interested in if there

12 is more information available on their use in

13 the BVM industry. We would welcome that and

14 could incorporate that into future analyses.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis

16 Starr?

17 MR. STARR: I just had a question

18 on the microchannel heat exchangers. Did you

19 run into any products out there that have

20 that, or is it just not -- there wasn't enough

21 information on products out there to really do

22 analysis on? Is that the problem?
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1 MS. PRESENT: I don't believe we

2 saw any BVMs that --

3 MR. WEBER: So this Collin Weber

4 from Navigant. Our experience has been that

5 on the evaporator side there is an issue of

6 icing, and on the condenser side, there is the

7 issue of clogging and fouling. Manufacturers

8 that deal with that -- are there R&D efforts

9 in those areas?

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Did you see

11 microchannel?

12 MR. WEBER: Not in the products on

13 the market due to the kinds of reliability

14 issues that are cited.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see a few

16 heads nodding yes. Any additional comments on

17 this or other issues that are listed there,

18 the six that were removed from consideration?

19 MR. STARR: And the other ones,

20 the variable speed --

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis,

22 please, yes.
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1 MR. STARR: The variable speed

2 motors, is that the thing where they weren't

3 much -- they weren't on the market, really?

4 MS. PRESENT: Variable speed

5 compressors?

6 MR. STARR: Yes.

7 MS. PRESENT: We did not see any

8 in any of the BVMs that we looked at. And we

9 don't have any data at this point on how they

10 affect BVM performance in actual use.

11 MR. STARR: Okay. So it may not

12 actually help in the -- I think I heard this

13 in icemakers, how the variable speed motors

14 don't necessarily -- or motors don't

15 necessarily help, but there is probably some

16 kind of design reason why it's not a good

17 technology to apply.

18 MS. PRESENT: That's a place where

19 we would definitely welcome any information

20 about whether they may be entering the BVM

21 market, or, if they are not, why.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Jim.
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1 MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. 

2 We did use a variable speed compressor for a

3 short time. And it was made obsolete by the

4 supplier. Generally speaking, they are just

5 not available in the United States for use in

6 the fractional horsepower range of our

7 industry.

8 MR. STARR: So ECM motors would be

9 the same? Those are essentially variable

10 speed motors, right?

11 MR. COLLINS: No. ECM motors

12 aren't necessarily variable speed, but they

13 are electronically controlled and highly

14 efficient. In our case, we have to use them.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis, look

16 at the list. Do you see --

17 (Simultaneous speaking) 

18 MR. STARR: Elaina, did you guys

19 -- the ECM motor technology, is that -- did

20 you consider that variable speed, or how did

21 you look at that particular technology?

22 MS. PRESENT: So we certainly used
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1 ECM motors and fan motors. 

2 MR. STARR: Okay.

3 MS. PRESENT: Compressors, I --

4 that didn't come up. 

5 MR. STARR: Okay. Just --

6 MS. PRESENT: Collin, anything

7 that I should add at that point?

8 MR. WEBER: I mean, ECMs are used

9 on the evaporator and condenser fan side as

10 the highest efficiency fan technology

11 available. I mean, in a context, some -- I

12 mean, variable speed compressors, if available

13 in the market, would most likely integrate

14 ECMs. But our understanding is the same as

15 Jim's and other members of industry, that they

16 are not available in the purchasing volumes

17 and sizing requirements of the domestic BVM

18 history.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MS. PRESENT: All right. So going

21 on, in the engineering analysis, in order to

22 conduct the analysis, we used 10
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1 representative beverage vending machines,

2 representative sizes and dimensions that were

3 used throughout the analysis. 

4 These were broken down three Class

5 As, three Class Bs, small, medium, and large

6 each. These are -- were set up to be the same

7 as were used in 2009 rulemaking. We don't

8 have any information showing that --

9 significant market shifts that would make

10 those unrepresentative.

11 And then, we also developed combo

12 A and combo B representative sizes, for a

13 total of four representative combination

14 vending machine sizes. We called these each

15 medium and large. It could have just as well

16 been small and large. It is just a matter of

17 nomenclature. 

18 The combo A sizes align slightly

19 better with the medium and large of Class A

20 than with the small and large, and that's how

21 that came to be. We have -- but there is two

22 sizes each for combo A and combo B.
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1 The performance modeling in the

2 engineering analysis used representative unit

3 and design option data to create the

4 performance model. It is an Excel-based

5 model, and it calculates equipment performance

6 under the DOE test procedure in terms of

7 kilowatt hours per day with 75-degree test

8 procedure conditions, for both the baseline

9 and the improved equipment configurations.

10 The representative sizes in each

11 class are modeled at the baseline and at the

12 efficiency levels corresponding to

13 implementation of each applicable design

14 option for each representative unit in order

15 of ascending payback period.

16 We actually ended up modeling 20

17 units. Each of the representative sizes were

18 modeled both with R-134a and R-744 or carbon

19 dioxide refrigerant. And the output was the

20 set of performance results consisting of the

21 modeled energy consumption in kilowatt hours

22 per day for each level analyzed.
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1 The details of the performance

2 analysis are included in the next slides. 

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a

4 question or a comment online from Joanna

5 Mauer. Hello, Joanna. You're up next.

6 MS. MAUER: I'm probably going to

7 go back a little bit, but I had a comment on

8 variable speed compressors. I know that the

9 TSD indicated that most vending machines on

10 the market today use the same compressor, an

11 Embraco model, and it looks to me like Embraco

12 does offer a variable speed compressor. It

13 certainly indicates that it can be used with

14 vending machines. Is this something that DOE

15 looked into at all?

16 MS. PRESENT: Without any actual

17 in situ data, we ended up not analyzing that

18 design option at this stage for variable speed

19 compressors.

20 MS. MAUER: Okay. And have you

21 tried talking with compressor manufacturers?

22 MS. PRESENT: Was that directed at
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1 DOE or at the manufacturers?

2 MS. MAUER: At DOE.

3 MS. PRESENT: Not to my knowledge. 

4 Not in a standards capacity.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Additional questions, comments here? Okay.

7 So, please proceed, Elaina.

8 MS. PRESENT: This is more

9 information on the energy performance modeling

10 of the beverage vending machines. The

11 performance model used was originally

12 developed for the 2009 rulemaking, and DOE

13 updated it for this rulemaking. 

14 There is two main parts. There is

15 the case heat load model, which accounts for

16 thermal loads, including conduction through

17 the doors and the walls, radiation, heat and

18 moisture addition due to warm air

19 infiltration, and it calculates the heat

20 introduced into the case by the electricity

21 use of internal components, namely evaporator

22 fans, lighting, defrost, and anti-sweat
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1 measures.

2 The second part is the

3 refrigeration system performance model where

4 the compressor power input is calculated using

5 compressor performance data from compressor

6 manufacturers, and the modeling of the heat

7 exchanger effectiveness for that model is --

8 was used to estimate compressor operating

9 conditions.

10 The energy use of auxiliary

11 components, such as the lighting and the fans,

12 is based on both component power input and the

13 runtime of those particular components at that

14 particular design option level. And the

15 system energy is calculated as the sum of the

16 refrigeration system and the direct auxiliary

17 component energy consumption.

18 So the heat load calculations are

19 done based on the geometry, the design

20 parameters of the unit, and on the conditions

21 in the DOE test procedures. So they include

22 the lighting power that is emitted into the
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1 case, the lighting usage based on lighting

2 wattage per fixture, the number of fixtures,

3 the run time, the radiation through the glass,

4 or the glass part of the machines, the

5 evaporator fan power, conduction through walls

6 of glass, and the warm air infiltration into

7 the case.

8 The case geometries and design

9 parameters were based on manufacturer

10 literature. As I mentioned before, we used

11 the 10 different representative units in our

12 calculations, and the thermal performance of

13 the case and components were based on

14 manufacturer or supplier literature.

15 So the system performance

16 simulation is driven by compressor modeling. 

17 The compressor energy consumption is based on

18 the compressor performance maps that are done

19 based -- by ANSI/AHRI Standard 540. They

20 provide compressor performance including

21 capacity, power input, and such, based on

22 operating conditions.
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1 And within the engineering model,

2 suction and discharge conditions are

3 calculated as a function of the design air

4 temperature and the design of the heat

5 exchangers. The heat exchanger design

6 parameters were developed through first7 principles modeling by an outside subject

8 matter expert, and the auxiliary component

9 performance completes the energy assessment. 

10 It is added to the compressor use,

11 which is based on -- so you have the heat load

12 in the cabinet, compressor use, energy use,

13 estimated based on the heat load of the

14 cabinet, and then you add onto that the fan,

15 lights, and the standby money accepting -- I

16 mean, money processing power, anything else

17 that DOE has included in the test procedure,

18 to come up with the final energy consumption

19 for that performance level.

20 A note regarding refrigerants. 

21 DOE modeled each representative unit using

22 both R-134a and R-744 refrigerants. At this
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1 time, those are the refrigerants that we are

2 aware of being on the market for BVMs. And we

3 are -- DOE found the share of non-HFC units to

4 be very small at present, but aware that it's

5 growing rapidly.

6 And as mentioned previously, DOE

7 is remaining aware of what is happening with

8 the SNAP programs and will adjust accordingly

9 as needed.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Is 744 CO2?

11 MS. PRESENT: Yes.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MS. PRESENT: And then, in

14 accordance with the performance modeling that

15 was done, cost modeling happened on each

16 performance level, and the costs were modeled

17 in several phases. The core case of the

18 cabinets, which includes all

19 non-energy-consuming components, were

20 developed based on the teardowns that were

21 conducted. 

22 The costs for energy-consuming
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1 components and design options were developed

2 through research based on industry literature,

3 supplier price quotes, manufacturer

4 information, and then estimates of

5 manufacturer markup to go from the

6 manufacturer production cost to the

7 manufacturer selling price, were developed in

8 the 2009 rulemaking and were used, again, in

9 this preliminary analysis due to a lack of any

10 additional information.

11 Design option costs were applied

12 to core case costs at each modeled efficiency

13 level to yield the manufacturing production

14 cost values. We call those the MPCs. Markups

15 and outboard freight -- outbound freight were

16 added to yield manufacturer selling price

17 values.

18 So this brings us to our next

19 request for comments slide. DOE requests

20 information regarding the costs associated

21 with the design options under consideration,

22 as well as for any technology options which
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1 should be considered at the NOPR stage, the

2 next stage. DOE also requests comment and

3 data regarding the cost and performance of

4 compressors, heat exchangers, and other

5 refrigeration system components for carbon

6 dioxide and hydrocarbon refrigeration systems

7 in the beverage vending machine capacity

8 range.

9 And this information in some cases

10 may be more conducive to written comments, but

11 we would also welcome comments at this time.

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?

13 MR. STARR: I had a question on --

14 on the 134a, is that -- I mean, that's

15 probably the baseline. The reason you're

16 choosing that refrigerant is that that's the

17 most common one that is made in terms --

18 MS. PRESENT: That one is found in

19 more models than anything else.

20 MR. STARR: Do you have an idea of

21 what the percentage of mix between 134 and

22 then the other classifications of refrigerants
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1 -- in general, what that breakdown is?

2 MS. PRESENT: So as far as DOE is

3 aware, the only other refrigerant currently on

4 the market in the U.S. is carbon dioxide, and

5 it accounts for well under half and probably

6 under a quarter of the models available.

7 MR. STARR: Okay.

8 

9 MS. PRESENT: I would probably

10 even say well under a quarter, but I would be

11 less confident in that statement.

12 MR. STARR: All right. So the

13 SNAP program, if EPA published regulation on

14 that within essentially -- the analysis would

15 depict that half the ones with 134a or with --

16 how would that -- how would that adjust your

17 analysis?

18 MS. PRESENT: We have not -- we

19 are working with the market as it is right

20 now.

21 MR. STARR: Okay.

22 MS. PRESENT: What we did for the
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1 carbon dioxide is, of course, the baseline

2 technology options included are slightly

3 different, slightly more efficient technology

4 options in order to meet the same baseline

5 energy consumption, but still within -- still

6 well within what is currently on the market.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Before you

8 move on --

9 MS. PRESENT: Yes.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: -- as

11 Elaina suggested, these comment boxes may be

12 better served by detailed written responses,

13 but perhaps there is some overview. Is there

14 some trend line kind of comment that you could

15 make, for example, about costs? 

16 Okay. I guess we will move on.

17 MS. PRESENT: I will say this

18 much: DOE is aware that in the future modeling

19 hydrocarbon systems may become necessary, and

20 any information that can be provided that

21 would make that -- any analysis DOE would do

22 as accurate as possible would be greatly
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1 appreciated.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Chris Lau?

3 MR. LAU: This is Chris Lau with

4 Navigant. Also, I will make the comment that

5 if folks would -- if it is enabling, folks can

6 submit that comment under NDA also, protecting

7 technology.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And how do

9 they do that, Chris?

10 MR. LAU: So we will get into this

11 a little bit later, but at the NOPR phase we

12 can do it with manufacturer impact analysis

13 interviews. And when manufacturers

14 participate in those interviews, they sign an

15 NDA with Navigant, so they can show

16 proprietary information. Proprietary content

17 is not shared with DOE. However, any

18 aggregate content that can be rolled up and

19 averaged across the entire industry or across

20 different manufacturers who participate, those

21 values do get published.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If they
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1 wanted to submit this information soon as the

2 deadline suggests, they would not have had

3 that manufacturer interview in place yet. So

4 --

5 MR. LAU: That is correct.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So they

7 would need to initiate an NDA separate from

8 that process.

9 MR. LAU: If they want to submit

10 it as part of -- before this -- typically the

11 MIA interviews are done during the NOPR phase. 

12 If they want to submit comment -- if they want

13 to submit information --

14 MS. WIDDER: I think there is

15 instructions in the NOPR about how to submit

16 comments and just note to DOE which part of

17 the comments you are submitting or what data

18 you have that may be proprietary or you would

19 not want to be shared, and DOE can react to

20 that. But there is instructions in the NOPR,

21 I think, with regard to how to submit --

22 MS. PRESENT: So, to summarize,
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1 there are -- I guess comments can be made

2 public. Comments can also be made to DOE, but

3 with notes that certain portions will not be

4 made public. And then, separately there are

5 interviews that are conducted in the next

6 phase of rulemaking which are under

7 non-disclosure agreements, generally with

8 Navigant, and that material directly never

9 gets directly to DOE. It is used only in

10 aggregate form, even between Navigant and DOE.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MS. PRESENT: So there are three

13 different avenues I guess that -- 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Questions?

15 MR. HIEB: Yes, one comment. 

16 Larry Hieb from SandenVendo. And it is not in

17 regard to cost, but in regard to ECM motors

18 and the size constraints of certain evaporator

19 fan motor applications, for example, in a

20 glass for a vendor where there may be a very

21 tight area to package the evaporator system

22 and fan motors. It may not lend itself to an
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1 ECM-style motor because of its physical size.

2 MS. PRESENT: So you are saying

3 there are space constraints.

4 MR. HIEB: Very much so.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Thank you. Additional comments before we move

7 on? Okay.

8 MS. PRESENT: All right. The

9 final output of engineering analysis is a set

10 of cost efficiency curves, one for each

11 analyzed equipment configuration and

12 refrigerant, depicting equipment cost and

13 performance at each efficiency level model. 

14 So it is 20 in total.

15 These serve as the inputs to the

16 downstream analyses and as the basis for

17 development of trial standard levels in the

18 NOPR. I put one -- there is one here on this

19 slide of the 20. This is the general format

20 you will see. So you have daily energy

21 consumption. Each of these corresponds to a

22 single design option. For example, I am just
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1 making this up, but going to LED lighting, or

2 one single change in technology. And this is

3 the corresponding change in DEC and the

4 corresponding model change in price -- or,

5 yeah, in price.

6 And there are 20 of these. They

7 are all in the TSD, and we would be very

8 interested in feedback.

9 All right. Any further questions

10 or comments regarding --

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis

12 Starr.

13 MS. PRESENT: -- the engineering

14 analysis?

15 MR. STARR: Just one last question

16 on that graph you had on page 111. So that

17 line looks pretty flat. It actually is moving

18 down, right? In other words, as things are

19 added, the cost does -- or it almost looks

20 like the same price across, once you hit about

21 3.5 and above? I did not get what the -- how

22 that works. The cost looks like it stayed the
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1 same even though --

2 MR. WEBER: This is the graphical

3 representation of the cost.

4 MR. STARR: Oh.

5 MR. WEBER: There is not an

6 increase in basic --

7 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

8 MR. WEBER: This is just a scaling

9 issue. If you look at the picture --

10 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

11 MS. PRESENT: Each point on the

12 graph is at a unique energy consumption price.

13 MR. STARR: Okay.

14 MS. PRESENT: Though perhaps our

15 projection makes it look otherwise.

16 MR. STARR: Okay. Got it.

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna,

18 you are on. Please speak. We cannot hear

19 you. Subarna, whatever you are doing, it is

20 not working. You are not -- we are not

21 hearing you.

22 MR. MALAKAR: All right. The
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1 question I have was on modeling. I did not

2 get a chance to ask about the modeling.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We can go

4 back. It is okay.

5 MR. MALAKAR: The modeling

6 question, I was going to ask if all the models

7 were -- if any of those were verified, the

8 actual testing, the results?

9 MS. PRESENT: There was a range of

10 testing conducted, which was in line with the

11 model. It is actually -- there are not --

12 most of the units that were tested were not

13 strictly at baseline energy consumption. As

14 noted previously, most of the market meets the

15 ENERGY STAR requirements.

16 So there was -- the testing and

17 the modeling are checked against each other,

18 but the modeling is based on the energy model

19 and not directly on the testing.

20 MR. MALAKAR: Okay. Thank you.

21 MS. PRESENT: All right.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 
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1 Yes, Jim.

2 MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. 

3 Again, back to Louis' point, this curve just

4 looks wrong. I mean, we are getting 40,

5 50-odd percent improvement for no cost. It

6 just does not seem right to me.

7 MS. PRESENT: So I will say one

8 technology option, for instance, that is

9 included that may be -- the low power states,

10 which are currently -- which are included in

11 these cost efficiency curves, because these

12 are intended for use with the new test

13 procedure, the revised test procedure, are

14 really low cost is our understanding.

15 And, again, it -- we very much

16 welcome comment. All of the numbers are

17 actually in the notice. Are relatively low

18 cost for relatively high gain. So the first

19 couple of design options are, in all

20 likelihood, the low power states.

21 MR. COLLINS: So these MPCs, the

22 calculations for these curves, were not done
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1 using the procedure in place today?

2 MS. PRESENT: Correct. These were

3 done -- because -- as was mentioned earlier,

4 the new procedure was expected to be used with

5 any amended energy conservation standards. 

6 Likewise, the energy conservation standards

7 would need to be based on the new test

8 procedure.

9 So at baseline, it is assumed that

10 the test was conducted without any low power

11 states because the analysis for the original

12 -- for the 2009 BVM by rule -- did not assume

13 any low power state availability in the

14 testing. So those design options were modeled

15 as part of this engineering analysis.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry?

17 MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb,

18 SandenVendo. I do not know how you could do

19 that when many of the manufacturers' units do

20 go into a low power state in the current test

21 procedure by turning off lights prior to the

22 energy consumption portion of the cuts.
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1 MS. PRESENT: I will say that in

2 the 2009 analysis it was assumed that lights

3 were on throughout the test.

4 MR. HIEB: That is not the case.

5 MS. PRESENT: Well, thank you for

6 that comment. That is information that is

7 useful for us to have.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional

9 -- yes.

10 MR. WEBER: Do you mind if I just

11 dig into that a little more? I mean, could

12 you elaborate on a specific concern? I mean,

13 it seems like right now what we are getting is

14 we are getting alignment of the industry, the

15 modeling, and the test procedure, which in

16 theory is what should be happening. So is

17 there a concern there?

18 MR. HIEB: Yes. The concern is

19 that we are putting something in the bank that

20 is already being spent.

21 MR. WEBER: Well, I mean, it is

22 not accounted for in today's assessments that
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1 --

2 MR. HIEB: But it is accounted for

3 in the actual results and in the consumption

4 that is being reported.

5 MR. WEBER: I mean, depending on

6 how people are conducting it, what they are

7 using --

8 MR. HIEB: It is fact.

9 MR. WEBER: Okay. I mean -- 

10 MR. HIEB: And it is a significant

11 fact as well. It makes a significant impact

12 to the energy consumption.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sarah?

14 MS. WIDDER: So I have a

15 clarifying question on that, too. So you are

16 saying that the majority of beverage vending

17 machines have lighting controls that cannot be

18 adjusted by the machine operator?

19 MR. HIEB: No, I would not

20 necessarily say the majority, but a good

21 percentage of them do. And they are -- and

22 the energy consumption data that has been
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1 generated in the test of those units is

2 without lighting or reduced lighting.

3 MS. WIDDER: But then there are

4 also BVM models available that the controls

5 can be adjusted by the machine operator or do

6 not have controls.

7 MR. HIEB: I would say they were

8 maybe in addition to. They have secondary

9 tiered energy modes that can be activated by

10 programming, but yet they also have set modes

11 that will take in -- or kick in during the

12 normal course of the energy consumption

13 testing that is currently specified.

14 MS. WIDDER: For some BVM models.

15 MR. HIEB: Yes.

16 MS. WIDDER: And there are also

17 BVM models available that do not have lighting

18 --

19 MR. HIEB: Yes.

20 MS. PRESENT: So they would

21 typically be tested with lights on all the

22 time?
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1 MR. HIEB: Yes.

2 MS. PRESENT: Okay. 

3 MS. WIDDER: Thank you.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks for

5 the clarification. That is helpful. Any

6 other comments here? Okay.

7 MS. PRESENT: All right. I am

8 going to move on, then, to the preliminary

9 manufacturer impact analysis. The

10 manufacturer impact analysis is conducted in

11 three main phases; it is intended to identify

12 the impacts of energy conservation standards

13 on manufacturers.

14 And DOE starts with Phase 1,

15 creating an industry profile to characterize

16 the industry and identify important issues

17 that require consideration. Do you want to

18 stop at --

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,

20 please. Subarna, please, go ahead.

21 MR. MALAKAR: Hey, I was going to

22 make a comment on the earlier slide. You
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1 know, some of this stuff we have -- you have

2 listed there as a new technology or things we

3 can do, low power mode, you know, turning the

4 light off, and also ECM motor. Those are

5 already included. We are already utilizing

6 that technology. So I do not think -- I do

7 not think we can count on those things to make

8 any sort of improvement.

9 MS. WIDDER: I think there is

10 maybe a point that is worth clarifying here is

11 that these design options were considered

12 exclusively because they are being implemented

13 in some equipment that is available on the

14 market today. But DOE started its analysis

15 with equipment that minimally complied with

16 the standard.

17 So if you go back to that, there

18 was like a slope and a line, and there is a

19 lot of equipment that performed significantly

20 better than DOE's standard. And that would

21 potentially continue to be the case, and those

22 equipment may already implement some of these
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1 design options, but DOE is starting back at

2 equipment that is right on the line that --

3 MS. PRESENT: I can expand on that

4 a little bit. So for -- I did not talk a lot

5 about the baseline, the concept of a baseline. 

6 The baseline is where DOE starts its analysis. 

7 It is the energy -- when there are standards

8 already in place, such as the case for Class

9 A and Class B equipment, it is the standard

10 level.

11 When there is not a standard

12 already in place, such as combination vending

13 machines, it is sort of a reasonably low

14 energy performance. And that is where DOE

15 starts its analysis, and it moves forward from

16 there.

17 The analysis is technology-neutral

18 in that the baseline energy consumption, we

19 modeled one way to get there, but there are

20 myriad ways to achieve that baseline energy

21 level. Most equipment on the market currently

22 significantly exceeds the DOE standard.
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1 So that equipment is going to be

2 including design options. And as we said

3 before, there are -- when there was no

4 information on a design option, we did not

5 include it. Therefore, most of the design

6 options we included are based on equipment

7 that is already on the market. Most equipment

8 on the market is not implementing all of them. 

9 Most equipment is implementing some of them,

10 and that equipment is already, as Sarah said,

11 well beyond the baseline model of performance

12 that we were discussing.

13 So that flat part of the curve may

14 already be largely gone. Or not. Especially

15 as the test procedure may or may not be

16 static.

17 Shall I continue? All right. So

18 as I said, the first phase of the manufacturer

19 impact analysis, DOE creates an industry

20 profile to characterize the industry and

21 identify important issues that require

22 consideration.
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1 Phase 2 -- and DOE is about at the

2 beginning of Phase 2 right now -- Phase 2, DOE

3 prepares an industry cash flow model and an

4 interview questionnaire to guide subsequent

5 conversations with manufacturers.

6 Those materials, the interview

7 questionnaire, takes into account what happens

8 at this meeting, what happens in the comment

9 period after this meeting. That is where this

10 process is. 

11 Phase 3, it has to be finished

12 before the NOPR publishes. So that the DOE is

13 right in the middle of this process as we

14 speak. Phase 3 is the DOE interview process. 

15 DOE interviews manufacturers and assesses the

16 impacts of standards both quantitatively --

17 using the government regulatory impact model

18 -- and qualitatively -- impacts on

19 competition, manufacturing capacity,

20 employment, and regulatory burden.

21 This manufacturer impact analysis

22 is the primary place where, as is stated, the
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1 manufacturer impact is considered, and the

2 primary input to that is the interviews with

3 manufacturers to understand the impact that a

4 standard could or would have on the

5 manufacturers.

6 These interviews take place

7 generally, as Chris stated, in the notice of

8 proposed rulemaking phase, generally under a

9 notice -- a non-disclosure agreement between

10 Navigant and the manufacturer. And the

11 information, as previously stated, is then

12 used in aggregate to inform the notice of

13 proposed rulemaking analyses. It is not used

14 directly -- is not given directly to DOE. It

15 is not shared with DOE.

16 At this point in the MIA analysis,

17 DOE has identified the following general areas

18 of interest to be investigated during the MIA. 

19 These include customer impacts and performance

20 requirements, current market conditions, the

21 cumulative regulatory burden, including this

22 energy standard and any other standards that
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1 may be affecting the BVM industry.

2 The split incentive problems that

3 were alluded to earlier in today's

4 conversations -- profitability and small

5 business impacts.

6 And at the present time we have

7 two extra comments related to the MIA. DOE

8 requests comments on its identification of key

9 issues and requests data and information from

10 interested parties that can assist in

11 evaluating the potential impact on

12 manufacturers. And DOE considers the impacts

13 on certain manufacturer subgroups, including

14 small business manufacturers that have

15 different cost structures or operate within

16 different regulatory frameworks.

17 In the notice of proposed

18 rulemaking stage, DOE requests feedback on

19 subgroups to analyze and/or characteristics

20 appropriate for subgroup analysis. 

21 If there is nothing at present,

22 please do not hesitate to bring up things as
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1 they come to mind. But at this time, I will

2 hand it over to Scott. 

3 MR. YOUNG: Do we go directly into

4 these sections, or is there agreement on --

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Just keep

6 going.

7 MR. YOUNG: Okay. My name is

8 Scott Young. I am from Lawrence Berkeley

9 National Laboratory. And so I will be going

10 over the last sections here. All these

11 sections address the economic impact of

12 standards on customers.

13 And so the first one that we are

14 going to be looking at is the markups

15 analysis. And this is the part -- as you can

16 see, we have two different sets of lines here. 

17 This is getting to the overall prices that

18 consumers are going to have of the products

19 that come out of the engineering analysis.

20 So the overall idea of the markups

21 analysis is to characterize the distribution

22 channels for these products, and then estimate
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1 the customer prices that customers actually

2 pay for products that come out of the

3 engineering analysis.

4 So looking at this diagram here,

5 DOE identified three main different

6 distribution channels. The first one consumes

7 about 85 percent of product, goes directly

8 from beverage vending machine manufacturers to

9 bottlers or distributors. The other one --

10 other two go through a wholesaler along the

11 way. And so one of them goes to vending -- 10

12 percent go to vending machine operators, and

13 5 percent go to site owners.

14 So, in this case, the first

15 distribution channel has no markup other than

16 the manufacturer markup to it, as well as

17 sales tax. The other two have wholesaler

18 markup in addition to sales tax on the

19 manufacturer. 

20 And so DOE was looking at Census

21 data in order to try to assess the wholesaler

22 markets.
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1 So there are two different markup

2 types that we address. The first one is the

3 baseline markup. This is the markup that is

4 applied to the baseline products. We talked

5 about the baseline products in the engineering

6 curve, and this relates the baseline price in

7 the engineering curve to the price that a

8 customer would pay. And it encompasses all of

9 the expenses and profit that a wholesaler

10 would have.

11 The second type is an incremental

12 markup, and this is applied to just the

13 incremental costs in that cost efficiency

14 curve that we saw. And so this would only

15 cover what DOE would believe would be an

16 incremental -- the parts that might change in

17 a markup as a result of differences in

18 efficiency. 

19 And so it would not take into

20 account things that a wholesaler -- it would

21 not change in a wholesaler's operation because

22 that wholesaler might be off handling -- the
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1 overall idea is that DOE applies the baseline

2 markup to the MSP of the baseline products,

3 and then an incremental markup to the

4 incremental increases in price that go above

5 the baseline.

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

7 Subarna, you are next. Please speak.

8 MR. DRENTEN: We just wanted to

9 make the comment here that there is a third

10 channel.

11 MR. YOUNG: Oh, yes.

12 MR. DRENTEN: Third channel is

13 absolutely directly to large food service

14 operators.

15 MR. YOUNG: Okay. And do you have

16 any idea --

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Pardon me

18 for interrupting. Do you have a sense of the

19 scale of that channel?

20 MR. DRENTEN: It is fairly large. 

21 I mean, they are not what in the industry you

22 would consider to be a bottler, and they are
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1 also not a wholesaler, because they do not

2 resell equipment. But there is, you know,

3 large national food service operators that

4 purchase equipment directly.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 Thank you very much. That is helpful.

7 MR. YOUNG: And relative to the

8 numbers that you see here, would you feel like

9 -- where would they fit in, and do you see

10 them taking a particular market share out of

11 any of those channels, or how would you see it

12 split up more accurately?

13 MR. DRENTEN: I am not really in a

14 position to be able to talk from a percentage

15 standpoint how that breaks down, but I can

16 tell -- I can tell you that there is a direct

17 from manufacturer to what we would call

18 vending machine operator.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 Thank you. 

21 MR. YOUNG: Sounds good.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All right.
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1 MR. YOUNG: And so these are the

2 overall markups that DOE estimated for

3 beverage vending machines. So let's talk

4 about the manufacturer, bottler, distributor. 

5 Only a manufacturer markup -- manufacturer

6 markup was estimated as part of the

7 engineering analysis as well as sales tax, and

8 then the manufacturer to a wholesaler to

9 either the operator or site owner would have

10 the manufacturer markup, and then a baseline

11 markup of about 1.48, and an incremental

12 markup of about 1.3, plus the sales tax. So

13 those are the overall numbers that DOE used

14 for estimating customer prices.

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments on

16 markups? No comments here. Okay.

17 MR. YOUNG: Okay. So next we will

18 move on to the energy use analysis. This is

19 the stage of the analysis where DOE estimates

20 the actual field energy use for products. So

21 the whole idea is that DOE would like to

22 develop a distribution of field energy uses of
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1 products that would be typically in -- in use

2 in the U.S., so sample energy uses. And then

3 these distributions are used as part of the

4 LCC and payback period analyses to calculate

5 annual operating costs.

6 Overall idea -- the method DOE

7 used is to develop one -- a distribution of

8 volumes of products that are in the market,

9 develop a distribution of the percentage of

10 products that are indoor versus outdoor, and

11 then use those two sets of numbers to estimate

12 energy use using the DOE test procedure as

13 well as a simulation model that took into

14 account climate factors.

15 Okay. So for -- the first thing

16 was determining the distribution of

17 refrigerated volume. And for Class A and B,

18 DOE estimated that by looking at the models

19 that were available in the CCMS database and

20 the ENERGY STAR database, assuming that the

21 model -- the number of shipments are

22 proportional to the number of models that are
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1 out there, and also weighting the products

2 that are on the ENERGY STAR list more heavily

3 than the products that are not ENERGY STAR. 

4 DOE estimated that approximately 93 percent of

5 shipments would be ENERGY STAR models. 

6 So these two -- these

7 distributions that we see here for Class A

8 products fit largely in the sort of medium to

9 large category, and the Class B products are

10 spread from the small all the way to the

11 large. 

12 For the combination A and

13 combination B products, there is less

14 information, and so DOE used the two sizes

15 that were modeled as part of the engineering

16 analysis and just estimated that -- I think

17 the engineering analysis modeled a medium and

18 a large for each combination A and combination

19 B, and DOE estimated that 50 percent of the

20 market would be in the medium and 50 percent

21 of the market would be the large.

22 And so I think this leads to the
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1 first request for comment in this section,

2 Issue 4.14. Should DOE continue to use the

3 CCMS and ENERGY STAR model databases to

4 estimate the shipments and weight those by an

5 estimated ENERGY STAR proportion of 93

6 percent? And then, also, for the combo A and

7 combo B, should DOE assume that 25 percent of

8 the market for each of those -- each of those

9 sizes that were modeled as part of the

10 engineering analysis.

11 Any comments?

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I am

13 wondering if anybody can speculate about combo

14 A and combo B if DOE's assumption that 25

15 percent of equipment shipped, if that is on

16 target. Larry, do you have a thought on that?

17 MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb from

18 SandenVendo. Yes. As far as combo A and B,

19 I cannot provide any information. Our company

20 does not manufacture those products. I would

21 think that 25 percent is a high number

22 relative to bottle vending machines, if that
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1 --

2 MR. YOUNG: Maybe I can -- it is

3 not clear in -- when we looked at combo A and

4 combo B, there were four models that were

5 modeled of combo A. And so out of each -- of

6 the whole combo market share, we assumed that

7 each of those models would take up 25 percent. 

8 That is not saying anything about how -- how

9 large of a market they would have relative to

10 --

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. YOUNG: All right. So the

13 next thing DOE did was estimate the proportion

14 of machines that would be indoor and outdoor

15 for Class A and combo A. We assumed that 100

16 percent of those machines would be indoor. 

17 And then, for Class B and combination B, DOE

18 estimated that 84 percent would be indoor and

19 16 percent would be outdoor.

20 This was done looking at some

21 information from college campus information

22 where they indicate where there are beverage
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1 vending machines available on campus and

2 trying to use that as a proxy for where the

3 beverage vending machines might be used

4 typically.

5 Then, based upon that information,

6 DOE estimated annual energy use. First, DOE

7 estimated baseline energy use for Class A and

8 B. They used values from the current standard

9 that is measured in the DOE test procedure. 

10 And then for combination, they used values

11 that came out of the engineering analysis, and

12 then converted daily energy use to annual

13 energy use for the indoor -- excuse me, indoor

14 models; it just multiplied daily by 365 to

15 come up with an annual, assuming that the DOE

16 test procedure would be the same as what you

17 would see in the field.

18 For outdoor machines, DOE

19 multiplied that by 365 and then also used a

20 sort of -- a climate adjustment factor. So

21 that adjustment factor adjusts the DOE energy

22 use based upon the climate of each state. And
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1 it is based upon the simulation model used in

2 the 2009 BVM final rule.

3 It resulted in an average

4 adjustment per state of about .8, so just

5 below 75 degrees overall, and ranged between

6 .6, say, in Alaska, up to 1.04 in Hawaii.

7 So this leads us to our next

8 request for comment, Issue 4.16. Should DOE

9 rely on data from six U.S. college campuses to

10 determine the fraction of outdoor use of the

11 BVMs? And should it also use regressions

12 based upon the 2009 BVM final rule engineering

13 analysis to scale the daily energy use to

14 energy use for outdoor models?

15 Any comments on that, those two?

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?

17 MR. STARR: Well, there are a

18 couple of things. I guess -- I think of some

19 of the things where the vending machines --

20 like in vestibules and lots of retail places

21 where you see them, so I kind of wonder

22 somewhat if 16 percent really represents the
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1 outdoor use, just kind of thinking about the

2 campuses and how they might be representative

3 of the rest of the population. So kind of

4 wondering about that still.

5 The other question I had --

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you

7 think campuses might overstate the --

8 MR. STARR: Well, students tend to

9 spend their time inside studying, right? 

10 (Laughter)

11 Well, one might think that anyway. 

12 I mean, it may not -- well, I do not know. 

13 There are just a lot of things to think about

14 that, but --

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We can

16 probably take this sample size here. It would

17 probably be -- go ahead. Keep going, Louis.

18 MR. STARR: Yes. I mean,

19 actually, I do not really know, but I would

20 certainly need to think about that some more

21 as to whether that would be representative.

22 MR. YOUNG: Sure. Yes.
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1 MR. STARR: The other question I

2 had was on the .8, the adjustment factor. So

3 was the outdoor adjustment, a factor of .8,

4 what are you doing with that number?

5 MR. YOUNG: Oh. So in -- so,

6 basically, in order to get annual energy use,

7 you have to get a daily energy use from the

8 test procedure, and then multiply that by 365

9 to get annual energy use, assuming that the

10 climate conditions around the BVM are the same

11 as what they are in the test procedure. And

12 then we have to multiply it by an adjustment

13 factor.

14 So if it is colder outside than it

15 would typically be during the test procedure,

16 then there would be less energy required. And

17 if it is hotter outside than it typically is

18 in the test procedure, it should be -- take

19 more energy.

20 MS. WIDDER: Essentially, what you

21 are talking about, your lowest application

22 product temperature. That same type of
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1 approach where you are scaling -- you are

2 assuming that the energy use scales linearly

3 with the delta between the --

4 MR. STARR: So, in other words, 75

5 is saying that if you have something outside,

6 chances are it is going to be cooler than 75

7 degrees outside rather than warmer than 75

8 degrees, since that is what the test

9 procedures have.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Nationally, but

11 this was done on -- as you can see by the

12 range, state level. So looking at the state

13 level TMY data, outdoor data.

14 MR. STARR: So like, in hours over

15 the course of the year, how many and what is

16 the average temperature. Okay. Get it.

17 MS. WIDDER: Exactly.

18 MR. STARR: All right. Thanks.

19 MR. MITCHELL: This is Scott

20 Mitchell from Southern California Edison. 

21 Does it take into account some of the

22 accessories that may be left off by cold
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1 weather heaters? Because that -- you know,

2 that -- if the machines are put in Minnesota,

3 it might be kind of in the .8 range there

4 where, you know, during the winter it is not

5 working too hard. But it now has this heater

6 on it to provide -- in winter that would maybe

7 change that value. So is that taken account

8 of or valued? 

9 

10 MR. YOUNG: Are you familiar at

11 all with the model that was used in the 2009?

12 MS. WIDDER: So the 2009 model did

13 account for the use of auxiliary heaters for

14 those hours that would be -- that would

15 require them, is my understanding. I did not

16 myself do the modeling, but that is my

17 understanding. We can certainly look back at

18 that.

19 And then the other base would --

20 based on this slide and the subsequent request

21 for comment, the other thing that I think we

22 would really appreciate data on is the extent
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1 to which the number of outdoor machines or

2 percentage of machines installed out there

3 varies with state or with region.

4 So if more machines are installed

5 outdoors in colder climates versus warmer

6 climates or warmer climates versus colder

7 climates. 

8 So 60 percent might not be exactly

9 correct, but we did -- and the other thing

10 that there used to be a slide on, but

11 apparently there is not now, is this -- this

12 adjustment factor is basically a linear

13 regression of the modeling that was done in

14 2009 for specific units that were modeled,

15 looking at the MDEC that comes out of the test

16 procedure, and then based on the climate

17 modeling that was done in 2009 on the other

18 axis, and then regressing those, however many,

19 five, equipment or different models that were

20 looked at. So there is a linear regression

21 developed, and then that was applied sort of

22 universally.
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1 So to that point, also, you know,

2 and the point I made about lowest application

3 product temperature, that is an estimate. And

4 in this case, it might be more appropriate

5 because we are doing a big annual nationwide

6 average anyways, but there will be some

7 equipment that the energy use is not scaling,

8 you know, linearly because there is that base

9 of, you know, lights do not scale with outdoor

10 temperature.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?

12 MR. STARR: The other thing, too,

13 to consider is that if you think about it,

14 there are -- probably most of the things --

15 with cold drinks, they are probably going to

16 sell more of it when it is hot. In other

17 words, the machine is going to be -- they are

18 going to sell more drinks when it is hot

19 during the day rather than when it is not

20 being used at night. So it seems like you

21 might be having a little more -- I do not

22 know. It seems like your average might be
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1 adjusting up above 75 rather than down below. 

2 So, I do not know, something to kind of think

3 about as well.

4 MR. YOUNG: All right.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Jim.

6 MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. 

7 Are we trying to get at the actual cost of

8 energy used? And, if so, then I have to say,

9 I mean, under our test procedures -- and,

10 believe me, I do not want to open that up

11 again, but that is not representative of a

12 machine in service at all. And if a machine

13 is doing what it is supposed to do, it is

14 selling products, so the doors are being

15 opened, people are getting products in and

16 out. Their route man is coming back to reload

17 it. There is a lot more energy consumption in

18 actual use than there is under the test

19 procedures that we follow.

20 MR. YOUNG: Okay.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you have

22 any -- 
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1 MR. COLLINS: I would ask if you

2 had considered that. No, I do not have

3 anything on that.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Do

5 you have a comment?

6 MS. WIDDER: I think I have a

7 followup.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sarah,

9 please.

10 MS. WIDDER: So I think that is

11 certainly a good point, and it is difficult to

12 think of, as we were talking about usage

13 profiles previously, you know, the usage

14 profiles of beverage vending machines can vary

15 widely in their application. 

16 And so in this analysis, we are

17 really trying to get an average,

18 representative picture of the population of

19 beverage vending machines, recognizing that we

20 are not going to get it perfectly, and then we

21 are going to -- we are going to look at

22 incrementally decreasing the energy use of
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1 those equipment through standards and what is

2 the benefit of that. That is the point here.

3 So to the extent that we have data

4 to better characterize the baseline energy

5 consumption, I think that is what we would be

6 looking for, if this is not an appropriate

7 average representation of the population of

8 beverage vending machines installed in the

9 nation. But those things that you were

10 mentioning, like opening the door, closing the

11 door, to refill it, that is not anticipated to

12 change as a function of standards. 

13 So that incremental energy use

14 associated with refilling a machine is not --

15 it would fall out of the analysis, if that

16 makes sense. It would be the same if we

17 increase efficiency, and so if we do not look

18 at -- if we do not account for that, it will

19 not affect the outcome of this analysis.

20 I feel like I did not explain that

21 very well. Was that clear?

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think we
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1 got it. Move on.

2 MR. SUAMI: I have a question. I

3 think that this morning you talked about 25

4 percent or perhaps lower usage of Class B. I

5 just want to know, what was the source of that

6 information? If that information is more

7 accurate than the 16, why not use the same --

8 MS. WIDDER: If I said 25 percent,

9 I misspoke. The data in the energy

10 conservation standard and the test procedure

11 -- well, the test procedure does not really

12 care about outdoor use. I mean, it is just 75

13 percent ambient. So if I gave that -- made

14 that statement, I apologize. The 16 percent

15 number is the best number that DOE has, and

16 the only number. So I do not have another

17 source of data.

18 MR. SUAMI: Yes. I remember maybe

19 a 2009 study or discussion. They were talking

20 about 25 percent. Probably that 25 percent

21 came from --

22 MS. WIDDER: So in 2009, I would
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1 have to look back at the source of data, but

2 my recollection from 2009 was that the 25

3 percent number was not based on as rigorous a

4 sample as even this is.

5 MR. SUAMI: Okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: So to the extent that

7 there is better data than DOE has and is

8 referencing here, I do not believe that the

9 2009 will used better data, but we will

10 certainly look back and ensure that that is

11 the case.

12 MR. SUAMI: Okay.

13 MR. YOUNG: All right. So here is

14 the annual energy use. On average, for --

15 average volume for Class A, going from 1,525

16 kilowatt hours per year, down to about

17 800-and-some or 900, and then for Class B

18 going from about 1,700 kilowatt hours per year

19 down to about 841 kilowatt hours.

20 And then, also for combination A

21 and combination B, the estimated annual energy

22 consumption on average for representative
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1 volumes, from 2,200 down to 644 for

2 combination A and from about 1,700 down to

3 about 700 for combination B.

4 And these are also averages based

5 upon a distribution of values, and I will get

6 back to the distribution point at the analysis

7 portion.

8 Are there any questions, further

9 questions, on the energy use analysis before

10 we move to the next section of analysis?

11 Okay. The next portion of

12 analysis is called the life-cycle cost and

13 payback period analysis. This is the point

14 where we bring together the prices coming from

15 the markups analysis and the energy use coming

16 from the energy use analysis. The purpose of

17 this analysis is to provide an estimate of the

18 economic impacts of the standard from the

19 customer's point of view, from the end user's

20 point of view.

21 The life-cycle cost is the total

22 cost of a machine from the time it is
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1 purchased to the time the person uses -- or

2 the firm uses it until they retire it. 

3 And the payback period is the time

4 it takes a firm to recoup any additional costs

5 of a more efficient product through reductions

6 in annual operating costs. 

7 The overall method we use, it

8 takes several steps. One of them is we use

9 the customer samples developed during the

10 energy use analysis, and then for each EL

11 determine the total installed cost, then

12 determine any of the operating costs for both

13 the first year and the lifetime of the

14 product, and then calculate the payback period

15 by dividing the increase in installed cost by

16 the decrement in operating cost, determine the

17 LCC by adding the whole life-cycle cost to the

18 installed cost, and determine the life-cycle

19 cost savings by subtracting the life-cycle

20 cost of a particular efficiency level from the

21 life-cycle cost of a product the sample

22 customer would have bought without that
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1 standard.

2 So for the customer sample, we

3 took a sample of 10,000 customers -- Monte

4 Carlo sampled 10,000 customers. It started in

5 the energy use analysis. And we allocated a

6 geographic location to each of them. We used

7 projections -- we assumed that BVMs would be

8 distributed proportional to population, and so

9 we used population projections for 2020.

10 And then we did -- allocated a

11 building use for where that BVM would be

12 located, and that was using state vending

13 industry reports indicating the typical uses

14 for vending machines.

15 And then, calculated the total

16 installed cost, and that is the sum of the

17 equipment price as well as any installation

18 costs. The equipment price comes from the

19 markup analysis, and then in addition to the

20 markups analysis we applied a price learning

21 factor to the prices to derive what we would

22 expect or what DOE would expect the equipment
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1 price to be in 2019, because equipment prices

2 are provided in 2013.

3 And so we used a .9 factor on the

4 equipment prices. This is based upon an

5 exponential bid we did on a PPI index for

6 merchandise and machines. And then, we added

7 installation costs, and those came from a

8 report on BVM installation, as well as Bureau

9 of Labor Statistics stats.

10 So this leads to the first request

11 for comment in this section, Issue 4.15. 

12 Should DOE apply an exponential price decline

13 trend based on PPI data for automatic

14 merchandising machines to the future equipment

15 prices for beverage vending machines?

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Anyone? No

17 comment here. No? Okay. Go ahead.

18 MR. YOUNG: So the next part was

19 starting to calculate the operating cost

20 versus annual -- calculating the annual energy

21 cost. So the annual energy consumption came

22 from the energy use analysis. Then, DOE
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1 estimated energy cost using EIA data, using

2 state level electricity prices as well as AEO

3 price projections. So that was estimated out

4 for the full lifetime- the longest lifetime of

5 the product. 

6 Then, the second component of

7 operating cost was calculating maintenance and

8 repair costs. DOE estimated two different

9 sets of repair costs, depending upon whether

10 the product had LED lighting or not. Then it

11 also estimated maintenance costs that were the

12 same for all efficiency levels and included a

13 refurbishment cost, based upon -- turned it

14 into an annualized cost for refurbishment that

15 was across all efficiency levels, but is based

16 upon two refurbishment events, one at 4.5

17 years and the other one at approximately nine

18 years.

19 And so this leads to three

20 different requests for comment. The first one

21 is, what are the average costs for

22 refurbishment as distinct from maintenance and
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1 repair costs that beverage vending machines

2 incur over their lifetime?

3 Do we have any --

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think

5 we're going to have to -- no comment on that

6 one.

7 MR. YOUNG: Okay. And then, are

8 the average annual costs for repair and

9 maintenance that DOE estimated reasonable? 

10 And also, is there any appreciable fraction of

11 repair maintenance that happens in the shop as

12 opposed to in the field that would affect the

13 estimated cost of repair and maintenance?

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. YOUNG: And then, Item 4.13,

16 is the DOE's assumption reasonable that 100

17 percent of new shipments of Class A machines

18 in 2019 will have LED lighting?

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We ought to

20 be able to get a response on that one. What

21 do you think?

22 MR. HIEB: Yes. We already are.
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 Thank you for that confirmation.

3 MR. YOUNG: All right. So move on

4 to the next thing.

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that

6 was Larry speaking, by the way. Thank you,

7 Larry.

8 MR. YOUNG: The next point as far

9 as the LCC analysis is determining a lifetime

10 for the product. So DOE used available

11 information to estimate a lifetime survival

12 function for the product. The average

13 lifetime was 13.4 years, going from a minimum

14 of eight years to a maximum of 30 years. 

15 So there is -- as you can see on

16 the screen, that's the cumulative distribution

17 of survival for the products. As you can see,

18 most of the products have retired by the time

19 of 20 years, but there is a long tail that

20 goes up to 30 years.

21 So that means -- so our next

22 request for comment, Issue 4.10, is this -- is
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1 the estimated distribution function for

2 lifetime reasonable for BVMs? And then,

3 should DOE assume that all BVMs at all

4 efficiency levels have the same lifetime? Or

5 is there any reason to believe that at

6 different efficiency levels lifetimes will

7 change, either get longer or shorter?

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?

9 MR. STARR: So I have a question

10 about your Slide 140 there.

11 MR. YOUNG: Yes.

12 MR. STARR: So if you're

13 refurbishing them, how does that -- if you

14 have a machine and refurbish that, how does

15 that show up? Is that in the longer percent

16 surviving, or is that -- how do you --

17 MR. YOUNG: Yes. In this case, so

18 what DOE estimated was DOE estimated that with

19 each refurbishment, they stayed in the same

20 efficiency level. They didn't change that

21 efficiency at all, and that the actual -- in

22 particular, it seemed that refurbishments
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1 would happen at 4.5 and nine years, and that

2 that wouldn't affect the overall lifetime of

3 the product.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So the

5 refurbishment doesn't cause it to reset for

6 zero.

7 MR. YOUNG: Exactly.

8 MR. STARR: So does that mean by

9 the third refurbishment you really can't do

10 anything? I mean, is that kind of the

11 assumption, more or less?

12 MR. YOUNG: Yes. From data that

13 -- from what reports we could find, it seemed

14 like we got -- took what was stated as the

15 typical, you know, full lifetime of a product

16 before it gets retired, and it was stated that

17 they typically have two refurbishments in that

18 time. And so we just use a full lifetime, and

19 it seemed there would be two refurbishments.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I see. So,

21 in 140, the straight line from 100 percent all

22 the way to 10 years out, that includes at
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1 least one refurbishment.

2 MR. YOUNG: Yes. Actually, that

3 -- so that actually has -- so in this, the

4 shortest lifetime is eight years, and so one

5 refurbishment would happen at 4.5 years. And

6 so for -- some machines wouldn't hit that

7 second refurbishment, but almost all machines

8 would.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. YOUNG: So the next component

11 was discount rates. And so discount rates are

12 used in the LCC analysis to convert the

13 streams of operating costs over the lifetime

14 of the product back to the installed cost year

15 or the year of installation -- 

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Hang on one

17 second.

18 MR. YOUNG: Yes.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'd like to

20 back up to 141.

21 MR. YOUNG: Sure. Yes.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: This seems
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1 like an important question. Maybe the --

2 maybe you're not in a position to answer it

3 now, but the second question there at the

4 bottom of that comment box, if you could

5 address that, I think it would be useful. 

6 Should DOE continue to assume that machines of

7 all efficiency levels have the same lifetime? 

8 Do some of these new technology offerings,

9 including LED lighting, does that mean that

10 they are going to last longer? Or do they

11 have the same lifetime?

12 I guess you're not ready to

13 comment on that. Okay. Yes, Scott?

14 MR. MITCHELL: It doesn't quite

15 answer the question. Scott Mitchell, Southern

16 California Edison. But assuming that we get

17 to the point where other refrigerants enter

18 the mix here, that might have an impact on

19 this.

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: In what way

21 might you speculate?

22 MR. MITCHELL: That there might be
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1 increased maintenance costs based on different

2 pressures than what was available to -- or

3 maybe decreased maintenance costs.

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 134

5 is a pretty tried-and-true kind of an

6 operating system?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. All

9 right. Thank you. You may proceed.

10 MR. YOUNG: Thank you -- DOE used

11 the weighted average cost of capital to

12 estimate the discount rates for firms. This

13 is including the financial cost of debt

14 incurred to purchase beverage vending machines

15 as well as the cost of any equity that was

16 used to purchase.

17 And in this case, DOE estimated --

18 used the estimate that the types of firms

19 under whose premises this machine was located

20 would be the ones whose discount rate would be

21 used. And so in this case there are a number

22 of machines, we realized, that are purchased
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1 by, say, a bottler, and they're placed on --

2 at someone's business, say, and that person's

3 business actually pays for the electricity

4 prices. But they didn't actually buy the

5 unit.

6 But in order to -- so this

7 analysis made the assumption that any

8 additional cost of that unit by this party

9 would be passed on to this party who -- where

10 the BVM is located, through either some type

11 of leasing arrangement or some other kind of

12 financial arrangement which happened. And so,

13 therefore, we're using the same discount rate

14 for electricity prices and for other things.

15 And so that leads us into the next

16 request for comment, Issue 4.17. What are the

17 typical financial arrangements between BVM

18 owners and the party that pays for energy

19 cost? Is it reasonable for DOE to make this

20 assumption?

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's an

22 interesting question. Finish making the
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1 statement. Is it a reasonable assumption that

2 the increased costs -

3 MR. YOUNG: Yes. The increased

4 cost of the more efficient BVM equipment can

5 be passed on to the party that pays the energy

6 cost.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How do

8 these leasing or provisional interest

9 typically work? Is that plausible? Louis?

10 MR. STARR: I had a question.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's try

12 that one first, though. Can we get a response

13 on that?

14 MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb from

15 SandenVendo. If I had to give an opinion, it

16 would be that they are not passed, or these

17 are marketing equipment B- they are trying to

18 promote their product, trying to get it out to

19 the consumer. And that price point is set by

20 the market, so I would say it's not passed on

21 to the actual user of the equipment.

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: If the
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1 beverage -- if the BVM is provided to the

2 market, they are going to have a cost

3 structure that doesn't depend as much on

4 variability and variation among those

5 marketplaces. So the potential for

6 passthrough of savings is not going to be

7 there. Louis?

8 MR. STARR: So my understanding is

9 one of the large bottlers actually has the

10 price of electricity in their product. So,

11 therefore, it is no longer a split incentive

12 as much, but maybe you're -- I don't know who

13 -- I think I heard that the last time I was

14 here in June of whatever. So some have a way

15 of capturing the cost, but not everybody wants

16 it --

17 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. It's

18 an interesting question. I don't know how

19 these business arrangements typically work. 

20 Okay. Final comments on this

21 request? Okay.

22 MR. YOUNG: DOE always welcomes any
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1 written comments on these things, too. 

2 The next thing that is required is

3 to assess the energy efficiency in the base

4 case. So this is the distribution of

5 efficiencies that are in the market in the

6 absence of any type of standard. So, and this

7 is -- DOE estimated this based upon the

8 models, likely B- energy use analysis based on

9 the models that are available on the

10 marketplace currently, in the CCMS database

11 and the ENERGY STAR database. And a similar

12 sort of thing, estimated 92 percent of BVMs in

13 2019 would be ENERGY STAR, and that the

14 distribution of models that we see on the

15 market currently would be similar to the

16 distribution we see in 2019, in terms of how

17 they fit into that efficiency level.

18 So this leads to the next request

19 for comment, Issue 4.12. Should DOE continue

20 to use the CCMS and ENERGY STAR databases to

21 estimate efficiencies of Class A and B

22 equipment shipments weighted by assumed ENERGY
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1 STAR compliant to 93 percent for each? And

2 then, initial -- something I didn't mention in

3 the previous slide is that for combination

4 equipment, DOE estimated that all products on

5 the market would give a baseline efficiency

6 level. And so is that a reasonable assumption

7 to make?

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any

9 comments here? Sometimes we have heard

10 previously the other products,that gee, we

11 have already squeezed a lot of efficiency out,

12 and there is not much head room there.

13 MR. HIEB: Yes. Larry Hieb for

14 SandenVendo. I would say that may be the case

15 with the existing products, but there are

16 developments that we have in a way where we

17 are struggling to meet basic DOE levels with

18 certain refrigerants and things that we are

19 being requested to move to. 

20 And, therefore, I would expect

21 that it would not be continuing at the 93

22 percent level. If anything, that trend may
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1 start to reverse.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Got you. 

3 Thank you. Okay. Additional thoughts on

4 this? Okay. So that's probably enough at

5 this point. Additional comments here? Okay.

6 MR. YOUNG: So these are example

7 results that come out of the LCC analysis. I

8 only have one set of tables here, but all the

9 rest of the tables are in the TSD chapter and

10 they can be looked at, as well as the

11 executive summary.

12 And so the values that -- you get

13 a set of columns going from installed costs

14 through to life-cycle cost and into the

15 average life-cycle savings, and each of these

16 is an average, or almost all of these are

17 averages, but the important thing to note is

18 that they are based upon a distribution. So

19 if we take a look at LCC savings, say for EL

20 5, it's an average of $200, and the

21 distribution of those actual LCC savings for

22 all the sample customers is shown below. 
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1 So the mean is at $200, the red

2 line, but it's based upon a distribution where

3 some customers save a whole lot and others

4 save less. And there is even some, in this

5 case one percent of customers, who actually

6 have no -- have negative savings. So they

7 lose over the lifetime of the product. So

8 that's the overall nature of the results that

9 come out of this analysis.

10 Any questions on that?

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are you

12 familiar with these distribution curves, like

13 this -- you following this?

14 MR. YOUNG: Okay. So that's the

15 end of the LCC and PBP analyses. We'll move

16 on to shipments analysis, unless anyone has

17 any followup comments for this.

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How many

19 more slides do we have?

20 MR. YOUNG: We have approximately

21 -- so we're at 147. I think we might have --

22 MS. WIDDER: Twenty.
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1 MR. YOUNG: Yes, something like

2 that.

3 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you want

4 to take a really quick break? Just 10

5 minutes?

6 MR. YOUNG: Sure.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Just get up

8 and stretch and make a quick dash to the

9 restroom. Yes? It's 2:53, almost 2:55. 

10 We'll resume at five minutes after three. 

11 We're close to the end here, but let's finish

12 strong. Five minutes after we'll resume. 

13 Make sure to wear your badges out there in the

14 hallway.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 2:54 p.m. and

17 resumed at 3:09 p.m.)

18 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

19 Let's start. When we left off, Scott was on

20 shipments analysis. Scott, proceed, please.

21 MR. YOUNG: All right. So now

22 we're doing shipments analysis. The overall
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1 idea of the shipments analysis is to estimate

2 how many shipments of these units happen in

3 2019 and for the next 30 years after that

4 point, identify how that changes with possible

5 efficiency, with the possible standards, and

6 also how that is distributed among different

7 efficiency levels and on different product

8 classes.

9 The overall method that we used is

10 so -- DOE relied on ENERGY STAR reports in

11 terms of what market penetration the ENERGY

12 STAR product has, so they put out a report

13 indicating how many ENERGY STAR products are

14 sold approximately and what they estimate the

15 penetration of those ENERGY STAR products are

16 in the market.

17 And in this case, we are only

18 dealing with replacement shipments in this

19 case. We are looking at the cost. It looked

20 like the overall stock is likely going down,

21 and so assumed that all shipments are largely

22 just for replacement.
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1 And so there are three main

2 inputs. One of them is the replacement rate. 

3 It comes out of the lifetime of the products. 

4 The historical shipments, which is estimated

5 based upon the ENERGY STAR market penetration

6 reports. And then, estimates of shipments by

7 equipment class. 

8 So, in this case, DOE estimated

9 the combination machines are two percent of

10 the total shipments market, one percent each

11 for combo A and combo B, and then Class A and

12 Class B are each 49 percent of the market.

13 And DOE also assumed that those

14 market shares are assumed to be the same or --

15 in 2019 through 2048.

16 This is the request for comment,

17 Item 4.8. Are DOE's assumptions of fixed

18 market share shipment for equipment classes

19 reasonable? So 49 percent Class A, 49 percent

20 Class B, one percent combo A, and one percent

21 combo B. Are those numbers reasonable? And

22 also, reasonable to have those the same or --
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1 for 2019 through --

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: What do you

3 think? Do we know this at this point? We

4 don't know or you can't comment or --

5 MR. YOUNG: No, I don't. I don't

6 know.

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. YOUNG: I don't know.

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You don't

10 know. Our industry members present don't

11 know. Okay.

12 MR. YOUNG: And so the first

13 estimate is the base case shipments

14 projection. So this is the estimated

15 shipments in the absence of any new standard. 

16 And so DOE estimated that there would be a

17 constant shipment rate of 100,000 units per

18 year shipped from 2013 through 2019 to 2048. 

19 This was based upon feedback that the market

20 had -- the shipment -- the stock had been

21 declining, and then also based upon what was

22 estimated by ENERGY STAR reports in terms of
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1 the number of shipments of new products.

2 And then we estimated this -- used

3 the base case distribution of models that were

4 used in the LCC analysis, and assumed that

5 that is the same for 2019 through 2048.

6 So there's three requests for

7 comment here. Item 4.6, will refurbishment

8 result in improvements in annual energy use in

9 2019 or later? And, if so, what is the nature

10 of this? Is that -- should refurbishments be

11 expected to decrease the annual energy use?

12 Okay. Item 4.7, should DOE

13 continue to use an assumption of flat BVM

14 shipments of 100,000 units per year starting

15 in 2013? Is it reasonable that refurbishment

16 -- DOE estimates that refurbished units remain

17 in the same geographic location as they were

18 when they were new?

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And that

20 assumption of 100,000 units, that goes on for

21 30 years?

22 MR. YOUNG: Yes.
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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Including

2 the constant refurbishment. What do you

3 think, is that a sensible B- Or do you all

4 think this market is going to grow?

5 PARTICIPANT: It sounds quite high

6 to me. 

7 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It sounds

8 high to you?

9 PARTICIPANT: Yes.

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 Okay. 

12 PARTICIPANT: We're talking about

13 the North American market.

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think so,

15 yes.

16 MR. YOUNG: Yes. This is for

17 everything that is manufactured for sale in

18 the U.S.

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 

20 Thank you, Larry.

21 MR. YOUNG: That includes things

22 that are also import -- manufactured overseas
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1 and imported to the U.S.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Imported

3 for distribution -- sale and distribution in

4 the U.S. Okay.

5 MR. YOUNG: And then, Item 4.13,

6 is DOE's assumption reasonable of the

7 efficiency level market share distributions

8 will remain constant beyond 2019? So based

9 upon what they are currently in 2013? All

10 right.

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis?

12 MR. STARR: I have a question

13 about -- Item 4.6. Are some of the

14 refurbishments you are thinking about, like

15 switching out units that are going to be --

16 when are those units -- or is it existing

17 units now that are going to refurbished before

18 '19 or -- 2019?

19 MR. YOUNG: This would be the unit

20 -- we are -- in this case, we were largely

21 looking at units that are sold in 2019 and

22 refurbished at some time after that period of
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1 time.

2 MR. STARR: Okay.

3 MR. YOUNG: And so in this case,

4 though, there had been indication that for

5 some units as part of the refurbishment, there

6 may be a change in lighting technology as part

7 of that refurbishment from fluorescent to some

8 type of an LED, and that would affect energy

9 use.

10 But the penetration of LED is so

11 high by 2019 that we felt that there -- it

12 would B- added that extra -- this is an unmet

13 and unneeded complication to assume that there

14 was any change in the overall efficiency of

15 the product after that point. But if anyone

16 has any knowledge on that or thoughts on that.

17 Okay. So the additional thing is

18 projecting the share of shipments that -- by

19 refrigerant type, and so DOE estimated that

20 CO2 refrigerants, although they are a small

21 portion of the market now, they would be

22 ramped up to the point at which they would get
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1 50 percent of the overall market by 2020. And

2 in this case, we are not considering any

3 hydrocarbon refrigerants, as we discussed. 

4 And also assuming that this share of

5 refrigerant -- of the refrigerant distribution

6 is the same across all efficiency levels.

7 And so this leads to Item 4.9,

8 should DOE assume that shipments of CO2

9 refrigerant-based beverage vending machines

10 reach 50 percent of total market share by

11 2020? I know this applies equally to all

12 equipment classes.

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes,

14 please. Jim.

15 MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. 

16 Certainly, if EPA gets its way with the new

17 SNAP rule, HFCs will be gone in 2016.

18 MR. YOUNG: Right on. As we talked

19 about earlier, we're dealing with only the

20 things that are currently on the market.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Louis?

22 MR. STARR: So is it part of the
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1 -- I think from the TSD, the reason you're

2 coming up with 50 percent, isn't that -- is

3 that Coca-Cola or one of those market shares,

4 they are trying to reach a goal, and so that's

5 the basis of that number?

6 MR. YOUNG: Yes. That is the

7 basis of that. Since they had an indication

8 that they would have everything by 2015 all

9 new that would be CO2. So in this case I

10 believe what we estimated was that they would

11 be a little bit behind that. They might get

12 that until 2017. 

13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And so

14 thanks for those comments.

15 MR. YOUNG: And so the last part

16 of the shipments analysis is estimating what

17 impact the possible standard would have on

18 shipments, and so this uses the same data as

19 used on the base case shipments. The

20 additional -- addition is looking at the

21 elasticity of demand as a result of the price. 

22 So as you increase the price of the BVM, you
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1 might expect that there might be some drop in

2 shipments for some of those.

3 And so that was what was added. 

4 And, as you can see, the table on the bottom

5 -- for a lot of the refrigerant or efficiency

6 levels, there is no added or no change in

7 shipments projected, but above these

8 efficiency levels shown in the table it is

9 considered that there will be an effect on

10 shipments. So a reduction of shipments above

11 those efficiency levels, for that efficiency

12 level and above.

13 So, say, for Class A, we would

14 assume for efficiency, if there were standards

15 on efficiency level 1, 2, or 3, the shipments

16 would be the same as if there were no --

17 there's no standard. But if there is a

18 standard set at efficiency level 4 or above,

19 then that would reduce the shipments overall.

20 And, yes, that's the end of the

21 shipments. So the shipments analysis, the

22 results are in the TSD chapter to look at, and
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1 actually bring up -- when you consider the

2 shipments analysis. So any question on the

3 shipments analysis? Okay.

4 So now we are on to the last major

5 section, which is the national impact

6 analysis. And this looks at the economic

7 impact of standards from the national point of

8 view. And so we are looking at the national

9 net energy savings, and the net present value

10 of a potential standard to customers across

11 the nation.

12 So overall there are several steps

13 in here. One of them is developing an annual

14 series of economic and energy impacts, and so

15 looking at -- for every year for 30 years of

16 shipments, what would be the energy impacts of

17 a potential standard, and what would be the

18 economic impacts of that standard?

19 And then, discounting those, so

20 back to the present value and adding them all

21 up. So we get the net value for energy

22 savings and net value for present value.
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1 And they're bringing the results

2 from the LCC analysis, plus the results from

3 the shipments model, to get those two values

4 of -- and we're looking at across 30 years of

5 shipments, so we're looking at products

6 shipped starting in 2019 through products

7 shipped in 2048, and to the end of the lives

8 of the last products sold in 2048.

9 Here is an overall schematic

10 diagram just of the process for the national

11 energy savings, and so you can see you have

12 started with the shipments model, stopped, and

13 then let's take the base case projection first

14 on the left, and you go for shipments in 2019,

15 shipments in 2020, shipments in '21. 

16 For each of those, we look at the

17 change in energy use for -- the base case

18 energy use that would occur if there were no

19 standard put in place. And then we add those

20 up to get a cumulative energy use across those

21 for all 30 years of shipments, and we do the

22 same thing for a given standard -- potential
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1 standard level. For 30 years, what would be

2 the total energy use?

3 And then, we subtract those two,

4 and we apply a factor to go from site energy

5 to a full fuel cycle energy value, and from

6 that we get a national energy savings. Does

7 that make sense?

8 And then, here is also a schematic

9 going from there, from the energy to the

10 actual NPV value. So the same thing, you

11 start with the shipments analysis, and we take

12 the -- for both base and standards case, we

13 take an energy cost, a maintenance and repair

14 cost, and the equipment cost together. And

15 from that, we can get a cumulative operating

16 cost savings for customers, and then we take

17 the cumulative total increase in equipment

18 prices for customers. And you can subtract

19 those two and discount them back to get a net

20 present value at the present time of a

21 potential standard.

22 MR. STARR: So the refurbishment
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1 is in the maintenance and repair cost, right?

2 MR. YOUNG: Yes.

3 MR. STARR: Okay.

4 MR. YOUNG: As part of doing this,

5 we need to calculate sort of shipment-weighted

6 efficiency levels and shipment-weighted levels

7 of cost and energy. And so that -- so that we

8 can adequately compare different numbers or

9 different changes in shipments. 

10 And then, we use the market share

11 efficiency data, so we use the base case

12 efficiency distribution we talked about in

13 both the energy use and the LCC analysis to

14 look at what the typical set of efficiency

15 levels are on the market. And then we assumed

16 that if any of those levels are removed, then

17 all of the market share that are -- that is no

18 longer available due to a standard gets rolled

19 up into the next closest level.

20 So if we say that we have, say,

21 take an example, five percent of the market at

22 EL 0, and that there is a standard place at
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1 efficiency level 1, then that means that EL 0

2 is no longer available on the market. And so

3 we assume that all customers who would have

4 bought EL 0 before now buy EL 1. Does that

5 make sense? So that's what we call our roll6 up scenario.

7 Now, we get to our standard -- the

8 efficiency level 2, then all the people who

9 would have bought efficient level 0 or 1 now

10 buy efficiency level 2. Yes?

11 MR. STARR: So that slide that

12 seemed to be -- I think it was page 4, I don't

13 remember. The one that had everybody debating

14 whether the cost of the machines and the

15 average energy use, it seemed like it sort of

16 flattened out, so that if you went from EL 1

17 you might not -- you might just key on up to

18 EL 4, instead of just to EL 2. Do you think

19 that that would really -- how might that

20 impact that? I don't know. I assume you're

21 not the one that developed that or are you?

22 MR. YOUNG: No. No. We didn't --
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1 we don't -- so the engineering analysis

2 relative to the cost efficiency curves, and

3 then we take the cost-efficiency curves and

4 use that to estimate what the impact would be

5 for -- economically for our customers.

6 MR. STARR: Do you feel like they

7 -- someone did -- in other words, if it only

8 cost a dollar to jump four efficiency levels,

9 I would -- if I was a company, I would

10 probably pay that extra dollar to go up an

11 extra couple levels. Do you think as far as

12 what you just explained, that in light of that

13 you might want to adjust that, or is it --

14 what's your thoughts about that?

15 MR. YOUNG: Let me think -- is

16 what you're saying is that you think that it

17 may not be accurate to say that everyone who

18 would normally be at zero would just go to

19 one, that they might actually -- some of them

20 might go to two or three possibly.

21 So if that were the case, then we

22 would see a -- we would potentially see a
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1 larger impact, because some people would go to

2 more energy savings. In this case, what we've

3 taken here is a very conservative approach,

4 assuming that people just go to the next level

5 and that's all that you -- we don't -- we're

6 not taking any credit for people optionally

7 choosing to go to some higher level. We're

8 only saying that they are going to go to the

9 minimum -- to make the minimum change that

10 they need to to --

11 MR. STARR: So to minimize cost,

12 they just go to the closest level to save a

13 dollar. Okay.

14 MR. YOUNG: It's based upon the

15 base case distribution. They have some

16 indication that they chose to lower costs.

17 So these are all of the inputs. 

18 Going to national impact analysis, I won't

19 discuss all of them, but basically a full list

20 of all of the costs -- repair and maintenance

21 costs, annual energy use, the base case

22 efficiencies, the standard case forecasted
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1 efficiencies, the energy prices, the full fuel

2 cycle factors, discount rates, and present

3 year.

4 So overall this is -- these are

5 just a table of the national energy savings

6 for each of the products analyzed across all

7 the efficiency levels. And so you can see, as

8 -- we were talking about as you go to a higher

9 and higher efficiency level, you go to lower

10 energy use, and so it makes sense in this case

11 that the more and more energy savings --

12 energy savings, understanding, just increase

13 as you go to higher and higher efficiency

14 levels. This doesn't take cost into account

15 at all.

16 And then, as long as no one has

17 any questions on net energy use, I'll move on

18 to the -- this is an example of the net

19 present value results. And so this is -- this

20 B- basically B- diagram shows a schematic of

21 what is actually measured in the NPV analysis. 

22 So there is kind of two main components here. 
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1 One of them is the blue, and that's the

2 operating cost savings. And so any savings

3 are positive, go up -- up in terms of dollars

4 from the zero axis. 

5 And you can see over the course of

6 years, from 2019 through to 20 -- it looks

7 like 2060 or so, you can definitely see that

8 there are considerable operating cost savings,

9 and they ramp up, and then they ramp down as

10 the product that was sold in this analysis

11 dies.

12 And then, you can see below the X13 axis, you see the yellow bars and those are

14 the increases in installed costs. So the

15 extra amount that customers have to pay in

16 order to get this more efficient -- these more

17 efficient appliances.

18 And so what we do is across each

19 of those years we subtract the yellow from the

20 blue, and that gives you the red line. That's

21 the net value in each of those years, and then

22 those are discounted back to the present year. 
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1 And that gives you the sum of the net present

2 value. Does that make sense to everyone?

3 So I don't have all of the

4 analyses -- all the results in here, but the

5 results are in that book of supporting

6 documents.

7 So that's the end of the national

8 impact analysis. Does anyone have any

9 questions on the national impact analysis? 

10 Okay.

11 So now we'll move on the next

12 steps. So the next steps -- the next step is

13 the NOPR stage, and in that stage the first

14 thing that's done is revise all of the things

15 that were done in the preliminary analysis. 

16 So that's on the far left side, revisions of

17 the engineering analysis, life-cycle cost,

18 payback period, national impact analysis.

19 And then, there are a number of

20 additional analyses that are done, and I'll go

21 through each of these very shortly. One of

22 them is a subgroup analysis done on the
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1 life-cycle cost, looking at potential

2 subgroups in the customer population who might

3 be adverse -- or might be disproportionately

4 affected. And there is a manufacturer impact

5 analysis, which you guys -- you already talked

6 about.

7 Then, there is an emissions

8 analysis and monetization of emission

9 reduction benefits, utility impact analysis,

10 employment impact analysis, and regulatory

11 impact analysis. Does anyone have any

12 questions on these sets of analyses that will

13 be done at the NOPR stage? Okay. Great.

14 Okay. So that is I think all of

15 the --

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Before

17 we turn it back to Ron to talk about this

18 final slide, as we promised you at the outset,

19 anybody that wishes to make final comments,

20 anything that you think hasn't been said or

21 summarized sufficiently, now is the

22 opportunity for anybody that wishes to make
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1 closing remarks. 

2 Okay. Yes, Scott?

3 MR. MITCHELL: Scott Mitchell,

4 Southern California Edison. Just wanted to --

5 I don't think I stated it earlier, but the

6 ASHRAE Committee, SPC 32.1, has a website

7 where we have been keeping all of the

8 information that we have produced thus far. 

9 So there's a written record of all of the

10 issues that we have been talking about, and

11 it's publicly available on the ASHRAE website.

12 I don't have the exact website

13 here with me, but you can find it searching

14 through ASHRAE.org and just search 32.1. I

15 think it comes up pretty quickly.

16 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: 32.1?

17 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. 32.1. And if

18 anybody is interested in joining in that

19 process, you can contact me and I can get all

20 of the information out to them.

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 Good. Thank you. Ron?
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1 MR. MAJETTE: Okay. Just in

2 conclusion now, I just want to make sure

3 everybody knew we do, one, appreciate your

4 written comments. I noticed that we had a

5 couple of verbal comments today, but it B- I

6 have a feeling that you guys are putting your

7 thoughts together and we are going to get a

8 writing campaign coming in.

9 Just wanted to make sure you knew

10 that -- refer to Docket Number EERE-2013-BT11 STD0022. The presentation today, the test

12 procedure side and the standards side, both of

13 those are listed as one file, and they are in

14 both documents. So it doesn't matter which

15 one you go into, you will be able to see this

16 presentation today.

17 Also, when you are emailing, I

18 know from time to time you may get the urge to

19 directly email either General Counsel or

20 myself, but please try to use the email

21 address provided in the presentation. That

22 way, we can keep an accurate account of all of
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1 the comments that come in. And we have

2 listed, if you wanted to mail or courier any

3 of your comments, you would give those to Ms.

4 Brenda Edwards. We have the two addresses

5 there for you to do that.

6 Don't forget, comment period

7 closes October 7th.

8 MS. BUTLER: For the standards.

9 MR. MAJETTE: For the standards,

10 yes. Any other questions or --

11 MR. COLLINS: I'd just note here,

12 again, there is a disparity between this

13 presentation here and the Federal Register. 

14 That email address is different. How do I

15 reconcile that?

16 MR. MAJETTE: I'm sorry. I'm not

17 looking at the standards. What do you have in

18 the standards, the email address?

19 MR. COLLINS: This is 0045, and in

20 the presentation it's 0022.

21 MS. BUTLER: That's probably in

22 the test procedure.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes. And, actually,

2 I'll make that comment also. If it's possible

3 -- and I recognize it might be a little bit

4 more work -- to keep comments on the test

5 procedure separate and emailed to the test

6 procedure docket, which is listed in the first

7 -- the blue-colored slide material that we

8 had, and then the comments on the standard

9 separately to this 0022 email that you

10 referenced, Jim. 

11 We both are -- they are separate

12 dockets, and they are separate rulemakings,

13 even though they are happening in parallel. 

14 So it just helps us track them better.

15 MR. COLLINS: And the 0022 is due

16 earlier.

17 MS. WIDDER: It is due earlier. 

18 So do that first.

19 MR. MAJETTE: Okay. If we don't

20 have any other questions, I want to thank

21 everybody for coming out and your indulgence

22 for the entire day. We really appreciate it. 
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1 Thank you.

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Safe

3 travels.

4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

5 matter went off the record at 3:42 p.m.)

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100:9 112:22

characteristics

59:19

characterization

11:15

characterize 21:9

53:15 56:20 60:21

80:4

characterizes 10:2

checked 47:17

choosing 38:16

119:7

chose 119:16

Chris 41:2,3,9 58:7

CHRISTOPHER

1:20

cited 25:14

clarification 53:5

clarifying 51:15

54:10

class 8:17,18 10:17

10:20 12:8,9,14

12:15 24:5 29:4,5

29:19 30:11 55:8

55:9 66:17 67:7,9

69:15,17 70:7

81:4 82:15,17

88:17 98:21 104:7

104:11,12,19,20

112:13

classes 10:1,11,15

103:8 104:18

110:12

classifications

38:22

clear 69:3 80:21

climate 66:14

70:20,22 73:10

76:16

climates 76:5,6,6,7

clogging 25:7

close 6:11 102:11

closes 126:7

closest 116:19

119:12

closing 3:20,22 5:6

5:8 18:16 80:10

124:1

CO2 18:5 36:10

109:20 110:8

111:9

Coca-Cola 111:3

cold 74:22 77:15

colder 73:14 76:5,6

college 69:21 71:9

Collin 2:9 15:22

25:3 28:6

Collins 1:17 18:14

18:14 19:4 27:1,1

27:11 48:2,2,21

78:6,6 79:1

110:15,15 126:11

126:19 127:15

columns 100:13

combination 8:21

9:1 10:20,22 11:6

11:9,12 29:13

55:12 67:12,13,18

67:18 69:17 70:10

82:20,21 83:2,3

99:3 104:9

combo 11:9,12 24:6

29:11,12,18,22,22

68:6,7,13,14,18

69:3,4,5,6,15

104:11,11,20,21

come 19:16 28:4

35:18 60:1,19

61:2 70:15 100:7

101:9 126:1

comes 76:15 85:18

104:3 124:15

coming 78:16

83:14,15 111:2

125:8 127:21

comment 5:14

14:17 18:11,13,16

19:3 31:4,7 38:2

40:11,14 41:4,6

42:12 43:15 48:16

50:6 53:22 57:8

63:9 68:1 71:8

75:21 79:5 86:11

86:17 87:20 88:5

89:22 93:4,13

95:16 98:19

104:16 105:4

106:7 126:6 127:2

comments 3:20

5:12,18 6:2,5

13:12 18:22 20:20

25:16 32:6 37:19

38:10,11 42:16,17

43:1,2 44:6 45:10

53:6 59:7,8 65:15

65:16 68:11 71:15

97:20 98:1 99:9

100:5 101:17

111:14 123:19

125:4,5 126:1,3

127:4,8

Committee 124:6

common 38:17

company 68:19

118:9

compare 116:8

comparison 12:11

compartment

11:10,14

competing 23:15

competition 57:19

complete 19:9

completely 22:15

completes 35:9

compliance 8:16

compliant 99:1

complication

109:13

complied 54:15

component 33:12

33:17 35:8 87:6

92:10

components 22:18

32:21 33:11,13

34:13 36:19 37:1

38:5 120:22

compressor 27:2

31:10,12,21 33:4

33:5,5,8 34:16,17

34:18,20 35:10,12

compressors 14:8

14:11 24:3 26:5

28:3,12 31:8,19

38:4

concept 55:5

concern 50:12,17

50:18

conclusion 125:2

condenser 14:8,9

14:10 24:3,4 25:6

28:9

conditions 30:8

33:9,20 34:22

35:2 58:20 73:10

conducive 38:10

conduct 28:22

conducted 21:14

22:2 23:20 36:21

43:5 47:10 49:10

53:10

conducting 51:6

conduction 32:16

34:5

conducts 22:9

confident 39:11

configuration

44:11

configurations

22:22 30:9

confirmation 89:2

conservation 1:3

4:6 7:11,18,20 8:6

9:13 10:9 49:5,6

53:12 81:10

conservative 119:3

consider 16:9

19:10 27:20 63:22

77:13 113:1

considerable 121:8

consideration

13:22 23:13 25:18

37:21 53:17 56:22

considered 13:19

17:10 38:1 54:11

58:1 79:2 112:9

considering 110:2

considers 59:12

consisting 30:20

constant 105:17

107:2 108:8

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44:3

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78:7 83:12,21,22

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87:13,14 88:13

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95:8,19 96:4,6

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103:19 115:13,14

115:14,16 116:1,7

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119:11 120:14

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cost-efficiency

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costs 22:20 23:2

36:16,22 37:11,12

37:20 40:15 62:13

66:5 84:4,6,12

85:18 86:7 87:8,9

87:11,21 88:1,8

92:13 94:1,3 96:2

100:13 119:16,20

119:21 121:14

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count 54:7

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118:11 125:5

courier 126:2

course 13:11 14:14

14:21 18:9 40:1

52:12 74:15 121:5

cover 62:15

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create 30:3

creates 22:17 56:19

creating 53:15

credit 119:6

cumulative 58:21

89:16 114:20

115:15,17

current 8:15 12:4,9

12:10 14:22 16:17

16:21 17:12,21

18:6 20:15 22:10

22:10 49:20 58:20

70:8

currently 12:6,13

13:10 17:17 23:1

23:3 39:3 40:6

48:10 52:13 55:21

98:10,15 108:9

110:20

curve 48:3 56:13

62:6,7,14

curves 21:3 22:6

44:10 48:11,22

101:12 118:2,3

customer 58:19

61:1 62:8 65:14

84:9,22 85:2

123:2

customer's 83:19

customers 60:12

61:1 85:3,4

100:22 101:3,5

113:10 115:16,18

117:3 118:5

121:15

cuts 49:22

cycle 115:5 120:2

CYR 2:6

D

D.C 1:12 4:12

daily 20:14 44:20

70:12,14 71:13

73:7

dash 102:8

data 10:6 12:17

23:15 26:9 30:3

31:17 33:5 38:3

42:17 51:22 59:9

61:21 71:9 74:13

74:13 75:22 80:3

81:9,17 82:1,7,9

86:13 87:1 91:12

111:18 116:11

database 12:6

66:19,20 98:10,11

databases 68:3

98:20

date 8:16 18:22

DAVE 1:16

DAVID 1:19

day 4:6 30:7,22

77:19 127:22

deadline 42:2

deal 25:8

dealing 103:18

110:19

debating 117:13

debt 94:13

DEC 45:3

decline 86:12

declining 105:21

decrease 106:11

decreased 94:3

decreasing 79:22

decrement 84:16

Defense 2:5

define 9:22

definitely 26:19

121:7

definition 8:9

defrost 32:22

degrees 71:5 74:7,8

delta 74:3

demand 111:21

Department 1:1,15

1:16,16,21 4:11

19:9 21:15

depend 97:3

depending 15:2

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depict 39:15

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design 14:4,8 21:8

21:11 22:3 23:2

24:2,4 26:16 30:3

30:13 31:18 33:14

33:19 34:8 35:3,4

35:5 37:1,11,21

44:22 48:19 49:14

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89:9

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65:22 66:7,9

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32:12 35:6 36:20

37:1,7 76:21 84:9

117:21

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developments

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114:10 120:20

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62:17

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12:14,16 22:16

34:11 40:3 41:20

43:13 59:15,16

60:16 61:5 62:1

76:19 87:8,20

90:6 94:1 103:6,7

116:8,9 126:14

differential 14:5

difficult 79:11

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dimensions 29:2

dioxide 17:17

30:19 38:6 39:4

40:1

direct 33:16 64:16

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doing 7:3 46:19

73:4 77:5 78:13

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dollar 118:8,10

119:13

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116:18 127:15,17

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ECMs 28:8,14

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98:5,21 119:22

120:1

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10:4,7,13 12:4,16

12:22 14:1,2,3,7,9

14:10,12 18:6

20:16 21:3,9,11

21:12 22:6 23:4

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28:10 30:12 37:12

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103:5,7 108:7

109:14 110:6

112:5,8,11,11,14

112:15,18 116:6

116:11,12,14

117:1,8,10 118:2

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84:5 96:4 117:9

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27:13

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ELIZABETH 2:5

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emissions 123:7

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114:14 115:4

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4:22 9:21,22 10:7

12:18,20,21 13:5

13:15,19,21 14:18

16:7,11 17:21

19:8 23:11,21

26:17 27:19,21

28:10 37:22 40:2

40:3 41:7 45:2

48:8 54:2,6 93:8

109:6

technology-neutral

55:17

telephonically 2:13

tell 64:16,16

temperature 35:4

73:22 74:16 77:3

77:10

tend 72:8

terms 30:6 38:17

98:16 103:11

105:22 121:3

test 6:12 7:22 8:12

14:15,20,22 15:1

15:3 18:21 20:15

22:11 30:6,7

33:21 35:17 48:12

48:13 49:7,10,20

50:3,15 52:1

56:15 66:12 70:9

70:16 73:8,11,15

73:18 74:8 76:15

78:9,18 81:10,11

125:11 126:22

127:4,5

tested 20:14 47:12

52:21

testing 22:1,9 47:8

47:10,16,19 49:14

52:13

tests 22:9

thank 44:6 47:20

47:22 50:5 53:3

64:6,20 89:2,6

94:9,10 100:3

107:20 124:22

127:20 128:1

thanks 53:4 74:18

111:14

theory 50:16

thermal 32:16

34:12

thicker 14:6 24:2

thing 16:11 26:2

66:15 69:13 75:21

76:9 77:12 89:4

98:2,12 100:17

109:17 114:22

115:10 122:14

things 15:6 17:13

45:18 54:2,7

59:22 62:20 71:18

71:19 72:13 77:14

80:9 95:14 98:1

99:18 107:21

110:20 122:14

think 4:16,17 5:13

7:5 16:8,8 18:19

26:12 42:14,21

54:6,7,9 67:16,22

68:21 71:18 72:7

72:11,13,20 75:21

77:13 78:2 79:6

79:10,12 80:5,22

81:3 88:4,21 93:5

97:13 101:21

105:3 107:3,4,14

111:1 117:12,18

118:11,15,16

123:14,20 124:5

124:15

thinking 72:1

108:14

third 63:9,12 91:9

thought 68:16

thoughts 100:3

109:16 118:14

125:7

three 21:14,18 29:4

29:5 43:12 53:11

61:5 87:19 102:10

104:1 106:6

118:20

tiered 52:9

tight 43:21

time 9:4 17:7 27:3

34:3 36:1 38:11

52:22 59:6 60:1

72:9 83:22 84:1,3

89:18 91:18 97:13

108:22 109:1

115:20 125:18,18

timeline 9:5

timers 24:8

times 8:18,19

timing 17:1

Title 7:16

TMY 74:13

today 4:9 9:19

31:10 49:1 54:14

125:5,11,16

today's 50:22 59:3

top 15:14

total 29:13 44:14

83:21 84:11 85:15

104:10 110:10

115:2,17

track 127:14

transparent 14:7

travels 128:3

trend 40:14 86:13

99:22

trial 44:17

tried 31:21

tried-and-true 94:5

try 61:21 96:11

125:20

trying 70:2 78:7

79:17 96:17,18

111:4

TSD 13:16 31:9

45:7 100:9 111:1

112:22

TUESDAY 1:8

turn 123:17

turned 87:13

turning 49:21 54:3

Twenty 101:22

two 15:6 20:12

29:21 32:14 59:7

60:16 61:10,17

62:1 66:11 67:6

67:14 71:15 87:8

87:16 91:17,19

104:9 114:3 115:3

115:19 118:20

120:22 126:4

type 10:11 62:11

73:22 95:10 98:6

109:8,19

types 62:2 94:18

typical 85:13 91:15

95:17 116:14

typically 42:10

52:21 66:1 70:4

73:15,17 91:17

96:9 97:19

typo 11:11

U

U.S 1:1 39:4 66:2

71:9 107:18 108:1

108:4

ultimate 7:11

understand 58:3

understanding

28:14 48:14 75:15

75:17 97:8 120:12

undertaking 8:7

unique 46:12

unit 30:2,14 33:20

35:21 95:5,8

108:19

United 27:5

units 11:12 12:5,8

12:15 21:4,5

30:17 34:11 36:3

47:12 49:19 52:1

76:14 103:2

105:17 106:14,16

106:20 108:15,16

108:17,21 109:5

universally 76:22

unmet 109:12

unneeded 109:13

unrepresentative

29:10

updated 32:13

urge 125:18

usage 34:1 79:12

79:13 81:4

use 3:10 5:3 24:12

26:10 27:2,5,14

31:10 32:21 33:10

35:10,12,12 48:12

65:18,20 66:1,11

66:12 68:2 70:2,6

70:7,12,13,22

71:10,11,13,14

72:1 73:6,7,9 74:2

75:13 77:7 78:18

79:22 80:13 81:7

81:12 82:14 83:9

83:15,16 84:7,8

84:10 85:5,11

86:22 91:18 98:8

98:20 106:8,11,13

109:9 114:17,18

114:20 115:2

116:10,11,13

117:15 118:4

119:21 120:10,17

125:20

useful 50:7 93:5

user 96:21

user's 83:19

uses 65:22 66:2
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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value 75:7 113:9,20

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120:19 121:21

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valves 14:13 20:16

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25:20 26:1,4,13

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28:12 31:8,12,18

variation 97:4

varies 76:3

variety 7:12 22:11

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verbal 125:5

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versus 21:10 66:10

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volumes 11:3 28:16

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walls 32:17 34:5

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78:10 81:5 102:3

118:13 125:2

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102:11,22 107:12

110:19 114:4,5

119:5,7

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wear 102:13

weather 75:1

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28:8 46:2,5,8

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weight 68:4

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welcome 18:11

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went 102:16 117:16

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wholesaler 61:10

61:17,21 62:9,20

62:22 64:1 65:8

wholesaler's 62:21

WIDDER 2:10

42:14 51:14 52:3

52:14,16 53:3

54:9 73:20 74:10

74:17 75:12 79:6

79:10 81:8,22

82:6 101:22 127:1

127:17

wide 11:21

widely 79:15

WILLIAMS 2:11

winter 75:4,6

wish 6:2

wishes 5:22 123:19

123:22

wonder 71:21

wondering 68:13

72:4

words 45:18 74:4

77:17 118:7

work 14:22 96:9

97:19 127:4

working 39:19

46:20 75:5

works 45:22

worth 54:10

wouldn't 91:2 92:6

writing 19:3 125:8

written 5:17 38:10

40:12 98:1 124:9

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year 9:7,9 15:18

74:15 82:16,18

84:13 92:14,15

105:18 106:14

113:15 120:3

121:22

years 6:17 8:1

87:17,18 89:13,14

89:14,19,20 91:1

91:22 92:4,5

103:3 106:21

113:15 114:4,21

115:1 121:6,19,21

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yield 37:13,16

Young 2:11 60:3,7

60:8 63:11,15

64:7,21 65:1,17

69:2,12 72:22

73:5 75:10 78:4

78:20 82:13 86:18

88:7,15 89:3,8

90:11,17 91:7,12

92:2,10,18,21

94:10 96:3 97:22

100:6 101:14,20

102:1,6,21 105:5

105:8,12 106:22

107:16,21 108:5

108:19 109:3

110:18 111:6,15

116:2,4 117:22

118:15 119:14

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zero 91:6 118:18

121:4

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0 116:22 117:1,4,9

0.055 8:17

0.073 8:19

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127:15

0045 126:19

1

1 53:14 112:15

117:1,4,9,16

1,525 82:15

1,700 82:18 83:2

1.04 71:6

1.3 65:12

1.48 65:11

1:15 1:12 4:2,9

10 23:18,21 28:22

34:11 61:11 91:22

102:4

10,000 85:3,4

100 69:15 88:16

91:21

100,000 105:17

106:14,20

1000 1:11

111 45:16

113 3:15

122 3:18

123 3:22

13.4 89:13

134 38:21 94:4

134a 38:14 39:15

140 90:10 91:21

141 92:20

147 101:21

16 1:8 23:11 69:19

71:22 81:7,14

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19 3:4 108:18

1975 7:11

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2 57:1,2,2 112:15

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20 30:16 44:14,19

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10:16 29:7 32:12

37:8 49:12 50:2

71:2,12 75:11,12

76:14,17 81:19,22

82:2,9

2012 8:16

2013 86:2 105:18

106:15 108:9

2014 1:8

2015 111:8

2016 9:10 110:17

2017 111:12

2019 86:1 88:18

98:13,16 103:3

104:15 105:1,18

106:5,9 108:8,18

108:21 109:11

114:6,14 121:6

2020 85:9 110:1,11

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2048 104:15 105:18

106:5 114:7,8

2060 121:7

21 114:15

25 15:14 16:4 68:7

68:14,21 69:7

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27 3:5 18:18

27th 18:21

3

3 7:16 13:16 57:11

57:14 112:15

3.16 8:20

3.5 45:21

3:00 5:11

3:09 102:17

3:42 128:5

30 89:14,20 103:3

106:21 113:15

114:4,21 115:1

31st 8:16

32.1 124:6,14,16,17

365 70:14,19 73:8

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4 3:3 112:18 117:12

117:18

4.10 89:22

4.12 98:19

4.13 88:15 108:5

4.14 68:2

4.15 86:11

4.16 71:8

4.17 95:16

4.5 87:16 91:1 92:5

4.6 106:7 108:13

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4.9 110:7

40 48:4

49 104:12,19,19

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5 23:6 61:13 100:20

50 67:19,20 110:1

110:10 111:2

50-odd 48:5

53 3:7

540 34:19

6

6 71:6

60 76:8

644 83:1

65 3:10

7

7 18:17

700 83:3

73 4:21

744 36:10

75 5:15 18:15 71:5

74:4,6,7 78:1

81:12

75-degree 30:7

7th 18:22 126:7

8

8 71:4 73:2,3 75:3

800-and-some

82:17

83 3:12

84 69:18

841 82:19

85 61:7

88 15:12

89 15:12

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

146

Refrigerated Beverage Vending

Energy Conservation Standards

US DOE

09-16-14

Washington, DC