E

er Profiles istrict Engineer

Colonel William W. Badger
ENGINEER PROFILES

The District Engineer

Interviews

with

j Colonel William W . Badger

by

Frank N . Schubert

Historical Division

Office of Administrative Serivces

Office, Chief of Engineers

Washington, D .C . 20314

EP 870-1-11

June 1983
Foreword

Over the years the program of the Corps of Engineers has changed

significantly. National goals have changed with the times, and the amount of

money and manpower to carry them out has varied as well . Whatever the mission

and resources allotted, the District Engineer (DE) has retained a pivotal role

in its execution .

In recognition of the central position of the DE in carrying out the work

of the Corps, I have asked the Historical Division to undertake a series of

interviews with incumbent DEs . These periodic conversations are intended to

show the evolving viewpoints of DEs, their approaches to problems, and their

techniques of management .

This publication contains the first group of interviews in this series .

Future DEs should find Colonel Bill Badger's reflections on his

responsibilities and performance instructive in preparing for their

assignments . Military personnel and civilian employees who wish more

information on the execution of our program should also find this useful .

J . K . BRATTON

Lieutenant General, USA

Chief of Engineers
Interviewer's Introduction

This series of four annual interviews presents the changing viewpoints of

an incumbent District Engineer . The conversations cover a wide range of

subjects, from the civil works planning process to personnel management .

Yet they have a coherence, because all of these matters are pertinent to the

management of an Engineer District .

The interviews did not begin with the .intention of providing a record of

a District Engineer's tenure . Before Colonel William W . Badger went to St .

Paul as District Engineer in June 1979, he served the Chief of Engineers as

special assistant for international programs . He was the first to hold this

position . During his tenure as special assistant, he oversaw and helped

develop a growing overseas program financed by recipient countries . When he

went to St . Paul, he agreed to my suggestion that he record his views on his

tour of duty as special assistant .

We conducted the first interview at his office in the Customs House about

60 days after he became St . Paul District Engineer . Most of the morning's

discussion concerned international programs . We also touched briefly on the

transition from staff officer to District commander .

Afterward, when we talked at more length about the change he had made, it

became evident that he had already given considerable thought to his new

assignment and to the nature of the District organization and operation .

Based on this conversation, I suggested that we meet yearly to record his

views of his responsibilities, goals, and problems as District Engineer . He

agreed to do so and the series began .
Initially, the Historical Division did not intend to publish the

interviews . Instead, the office considered the transcripts as source material

for later writing projects . As time passed, it began to seem that the

interviews might be more immediately useful . The District Engineer holds a

key position in the Corps of Engineers, but there is little to which future

district engineers can turn for insight into the methods and procedures of

their predecessors .

Colonel Badger also saw the need for such material . During 1982, he

prepared his "Notes for New District Commanders," which was published by St .

Paul District . North Central Division's commander, Brigadier General Scott B .

Smith, approved the pamphlet and recommended it to new district engineers,

observing that Badger's "Notes" could be "very helpful in getting a fix on the

complexities of your new job as well as provide you with some insights on how

to do it ."

This set of interviews represents the beginning of a program in which we

hope to achieve the same goal through recording the views of a number of

district engineers . We will choose districts of different kinds, for example,

some with major ports, and others with responsibilities for navigation on

major rivers or for part of the Great Lakes system . By so doing, we hope to

document the problems and possibilities faced by district engineers in a

variety of locations as well as their common concerns .

Frank N . Schubert

First Interview

30 July 1979

Q : Well, now that you're District Engineer in St . Paul, you've made an

interesting transition from the staff officer to a commander of a

huge organization . How do you find that transition?

A : I've found that there's no experience an Army officer has that

trains him to be a District Engineer . The District Engineer is a

unique position, one of great power, one of great respect, and one

with a large mission . Coming in as staff officer, where you did the

work yourself, to a position where you're supervising a large number

of people who do the work is almost a day-night thing . You have to

turn off the "I will do" mode of operation and turn on the "I am

supervising, I am managing" mode . Hopefully, I am doing just

that . The District job is a joy to do . It's just so big and it is

so different that when you're going through the learning phase,

you're always concerned that things are not continuing on without

someone guiding the ship . When I go out and check, though, it's

always that Corps civilian who's a real professional, and he or she

is getting the job done for you whether you're there or not . So the

system is good, and I guess that after being here for 60 days, it

reconfirms my thoughts that the Corps is a professional

organization . And it is doing well .

Q : So you're managing, with the engineer's impulse to put your hands on

a project, you're managing to keep your hands off the projects?
A : Yes . I have certain rules . Since I have three engineering degrees,

I try not to do any engineering. I feel that the job requires you

to be a leader and a manager . So, if anything, I'm trying to be a

good manager and use those techniques of leadership and management

that will make this thing go . The one thing that I've dedicated

myself to now is how we in the District can do more expeditiously

those things that we',re charged to do . Take those studies, take

those designs, or take those programs and make us respond quickly

and get the program from the study phase through the construction

phase . My efforts, basically, are to try to make this good machine

run a little faster.
Q : When we talked last summer, Colonel Badger, you had been District

Engineer (DE) here for about 60 days, and I asked you how you found

the transition from OCE staff to District Engineer . You said you

had to consciously move out of doing things into supervising . Has

it been difficult to keep your hands off projects?

A : Not really, because there is so much going on, I just don't have

time to get involved in all the different projects and activities .

It becomes obvious when you see the scope of your responsibilities

and authorities that the job will keep you very, very busy .

To stay on top of the job, you have to establish a management style

that will give you the information and you have to decentralize to

the maximum. You have to get the right personnel in the right jobs

so that, when you delegate to them, they make the jobs go for you .

You see that when you are at the management level -- dealing with

state and federal representatives, attending meetings for the Corps

or briefings, meeting with the local people -- you have time for

only a certain level of involvement with any given topic . To be

able to see the big picture, you have to look at all the problems a

little bit and not get too involved in a single problem or in one

project .

Second Interview

23 July 1980
You do get more involved in the projects that have problems . Each

time you get involved in an old problem, you get in a little

deeper . There are certain problem areas that I can talk about to a

great extent because they seem to be recurring . The rehabilitation

of Lock and Dam 1 is an example . We closed the river for five

months and that meant the city of Minneapolis, the port of

Minneapolis, was closed off. That cost them about a month's

shipping time in April, so they were conscious of that closure . We

were meeting with them monthly in Congressman Sabo's office and

reporting on that project . Each time before I would meet I would

get more deeply involved in Lock and Dam 1's rehabilitation . So the

problems were recurring and each time you get involved to a greater

depth .

Q : What are some of the other problem areas that have taken a lot of

your attention?

A : Well, you come into the District and the boss gives you your goals

and objectives . One of the things that General Morris has been upfront with is that my primary mission as District Engineer is to be

the contracting officer . We have a system where you go to

Huntsville and study contracts . I did that before I took over the

DE job and I also had experience with contracts in Saudi Arabia .

The shortfall, though, is that you have no experience as a contract

manager . You do not have the training in management indices to

know when a contract system is not working .
When I got here I encountered large numbers of contracts . Now I

have 56 active contracts . You find yourself so busy with managing

the contract system that your knowledge about contracting is not

what is really needed .

A different type of course should be explored and I recommended a

change to General Harris and also to General Noah in Huntsville .

The Huntsville Division should have the responsibility for putting a

contracting management course on video tapes . They would make 15-

minute professional tapes to be sent out to the field to redirect

the contracting course to contract management, not just

contracting . So when the DE comes in, he will be able to look at

the contract management video tapes and be able to determine as a

manager that the contracting system is working .

The first problem area that I got into was to improve the

contracting capability, allocation of funds, and fund control . I

hired a new chief of P&S (Procurement and Supply Division) who does

the contracting for us . We hired an extra contract person in the

division and established some cross training . When I first arrived

at St . Paul we depended on one person to do all the work herself .

Now she has extra help and we have the flexibility to insure that

every contract action is done right . Since this is one of General

Morris' top priorities and such an important area, we felt we had to

make great strides in improving the contracting system. I believe

we did .
Q : You also told me last year that you were satisfied with the

organization's structure and the professional level . You said that

your efforts are to try and make this good machine run a little

faster . Is that still your goal?

A : Yes, but I find that the system is working against me in attempting

to make things go faster . We're going through a period of more

public interest in water resources management . States are now

making demands for more states' rights . They feel they should have

greater involvement in water resource development .

Senator Durenberger was pushing for a new water resource policy .

The federal government would grant funds to the states, the governor

would set the priorities for water resources work and allocations of

funds, and the Corps would be used more in a technical role .

I think the states feel the Secretary of the Army and the Corps of

Engineers play too large a role in the decision-making on water

resources . I feel the trend in water resources is in coordination

and accommodation of the environmental groups ; trying to get

balanced plans ; and looking at the environmental, economic, and

social aspects . We are trying to do more coordination when we

develop projects so that the projects are better, and this process

takes longer .
As our system becomes more involved, the time drags out . Even

though we want to speed up the process so that we can better help

the people in water resources, or in regulatory functions, we find

there are more obstacles in the way than we first thought .

We are looking for ways to streamline and make the Corps perform

better . I think we have many innovative approaches to do that and,

if you like, we',11 discuss it .

Q : Well, this is what I actually wanted to get at . My question was in

terms of the organizational structure and professional level within

the District . The problems that you are talking about are actually

outside the District organization, is that right?

A : Yes . I thought I would spend more time during my first year, my

learning year, working within the District . The second year would

be more for formulation of strategy and plans, moving projects . My

last year would be more dedicated to institutionalizing what we have

establ fished .

In the learning year, looking within, we found that we really needed

to have team-building in the Engineering Division . We conducted

team-building classes so we could communicate better within the

Corps family and determine what our problems were . I thought it was

very productive . People became more sensitive to each other and we

now have much better communication .
Then we had a team-building course by the same consultant for the

project managers . Now the project managers communicate better . The

project manager is primarily concerned with the project and the

functional managers supervise the technical people who do the hardcore engineering or environmental work on the projects . So you have

this dual supervision, one supervising the project and the other

supervising the function . Communication is essential in this dual

system .

We have worked that out quite well . We established monthly meetings

where the project managers brief me . I have delegated

responsibility in guiding these projects to the project managers . I

try not to be the driver of the train from the executive office . I

let that happen with the project managers .

We have set up a system of two types of staff meetings . One week we

have the standard staff meeting of the personnel officer, the safety

officer, etc . The next week we have a staff meeting of the

construction-operations and the engineering personnel -- the

technical staff . It gives me a chance to interface with the

standard staff and with the construction and engineering areas .

Sometimes actions go on without the District Engineer having the

chance to interface with them . Alternating staff meetings provides

me a chance to see all the actions .
This is one thing I noticed in OCE when I was in the Civil Works

Directorate . A lot of time the management element or the "green

suit" element will be working in an area of hot issues or reacting

to problems while the civilian staff is plugging along with water

resource projects . Sometimes I felt there was not a close working

relationship, so by having alternating staff meetings, I am hoping

to get a closer relationship with the projects .

Q : How does it look so far?

A : Well, I think it is good from my viewpoint . I am more aware of what

is happening in the engineering and plann-4ng and on the technical

side than I would be if I had just the standard staff meeting . It

helps build the importance of the corporate image . About 30 people

in this organization attend one of the two staff meetings, and those

people form the corporate body. What you want to do, or at least

strive for, is to make them feel this is their District, they play a

major role in the management of this corporate body, and they

influence where we go as a corporate body .

I am trying to get those 30 people involved as a corporate body and

moving as a family instead of saying "This is Bill Badger's District

and if it fails we don't care ." This is our corporate body and the

survival of the organization is important to all of us .
Q : Dependent on all of us .

A : Dependent on all of us . I think the corporate image is built by

having two different types of staff meetings . I think the

communications have been great . The thing about communications is

this : communicate internally continuously and you should

communicate externally very selectively and very professionally .

Tell your story correctly the first time when you go outside the

Corps family . Inside the Corps family, you can tell the story all

the time instead of occasionally .

Q : Now, as far as internal communication is concerned, you have more

contact with your staff than just these two kinds of meetings?

A : Well, I try to keep my involvement in any one problem to a minimum

so I have time to see all the problems . I try not to get bogged

down in the administration so that I have more time to spend with

the people who have problems or to visit . The more time I can spend

with them, the more time they can spend with the boss, the better

the feedback . Hopefully, I have created an environment of trust so

that there is continuous feedback and I, as District Engineer, am

informed of what is going on with the problems we have .

The greatest fear I have as a manager is that there are problems

that are not recognized by other people or myself and do not get

corrected . Once you have identified the problem, you can usually

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solve it . I have found in my career that problems do not come with

red ribbons around them. You have to be very perceptive to

determine where the problems are .

Q: How candid do you think your staff members are with you? Do they

come to you with their problems?

A: Well, I think so because they are the District and part of the

corporate body. We spend a lot of time developing feedback . We

have gone into the retired community and we had a luncheon with 200

retired people . On the Corps'; birthday we had all the employees in

the auditorium and gave them a state-oftthe-Corps message and told

them about what is going on in the District .

So I think communication within has been helpful . We put together a

21-minute briefing called "Keeper of the Waters" and, if you can, I

would like you to come in tomorrow morning and see this .

Q : What other items have you worked on?

A: On my arrival, General Harris said, "Badger, improve the

professional image of the Corps ." So I said to myself, "How can I

do that?" Well, the obvious way is to improve our performance but

after you improve your performance, you need to- improve in telling

your story .
Q ;

So we contracted for a professional voice, we drafted a good script,

took color slides, and put together a professional briefing with

background music . We have done that with six key areas within the

District . So we have vastly improved our briefings and

communications . Any time Corps employees go to a meeting to

represent the Corps, they have all the latest information and they

know the Corps', position . They also know the objective of the

meeting and what they want to accomplish . They represent us in a

professional manner and communicate in the best way possible . When

Corps employees go out, they are prepared . Preparation is the key

to success .

I think all the above has helped to raise our professional image .

I've talked so long I've missed the question .

No, you've been right on the question, which was the efforts to

improve the organizational structure and professional level of the

District . You centered pretty much on communication .

A : Yes, but I think we have gone into deeper and more meaningful

areas . Hopefully, we haven't done the cosmetic fix : we have been

fixing the system on the long term . We have established a

sabbatical program . The professors from universities would come to

work with us for a year, or a year-and-a-half, and we would improve

our engineering skills in exchanging information with the

university . They would see what we are doing and go back and

improve our image with the university .

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The only problem with that was the moratorium on funding . They cut

the money and I had to stop the sabbatical program. I was setting

it up for 12 professors from 12 different universities . Next year,

when the funds start flowing, I will set up the sabbatical program .

We have started different training programs within . We recognize

that, with the high cost of housing, we will not be able to hire new

employees to come to St . Paul because they probably can't sell their

houses in their old location and they can't afford the interest

rates in the new location . This situation has made us less mobile

with our civilian workers, so when we promote, we probably will have

to promote from within . It is obvious that we have to train our

own, so we are very concerned about this training .

In our Construction-Operations Division we have four GS-13 branch

chiefs . On October 1, I will move the Chief of Regulatory to be the

Chief of Construction and the Chief of Construction will become the

Chief of Regulatory. The Chief of Maintenance will become the Chief

of Project Operations and Chief of Project Operations to

Maintenance . So I will have four GS-13s who will be trading places,

energizing, getting new life, a new job . . . .

Q : More depth?

A : More depth, more experience . When we have to replace a very great

Chief of Construction-Operations, we will have four supervisors who

are trained and capable of moving up .

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We are looking at the same thing in the Engineering Division ; we are

doing some cross-training and making some moves . We hope that it

vitalizes the personnel in the system . I feel confident that we are

moving in the right direction .

Q : How did you get this idea for cross-training branch chiefs?

A : Well, we will not be able to hire somebody from another organization

because of the economics of moving . So we have to hire within .

Q : Is this something you developed yourself?

A : Well, we developed it together here . If I have to hire a GS-14 from

within and I don't want to train my GS-13s, it':s shame on me . We

felt it was prudent to train our GS-13s .

Recently, when we filled two key positions, the Chief of Supply and

the Chief of Planning, we decided to do it in the open . I set up

part of the corporate body as an interviewing committee, including

our Chief of Counsel, our Chief of Personnel, the Deputy, Chief of

Engineering, and Chief of Construction-Operations . Later, on

another nominating team, we added the Comptroller . Those people

interviewed the candidates for the jobs . They made their

recommendations through the Chief of Engineering to me and we made

the selection .
A : Oh, no . Cross-training, I feel, gives people new life . When you

have people who work eight years in a planning mode, and you are not

getting water resource projects out of the pipeline because of the

change in environment or change in administration, it is

frustrating . I think we have some very difficult jobs in the Corps

and we have to exchange jobs for these people to keep them

interested . . . .

Q : Have you had any problems with people on the District staff who have

risen beyond their levels of competence?

A : Yes, we have .

Q : People in jobs they cannot handle?

A : Yes .

Q : What did you do?

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A : We had one case in the Regulatory Branch where somebody was promoted

one grade above his capabilities . We had problems with English and

we provided writing courses to get his ability up so that he could

perform at that level . We were not successful .

The supervisors were getting frustrated and the man was getting

frustrated, so we talked to him and we said, "Hey, we've got a

problem . What's the solution?"

The solution was that we backed off a grade . We gave him a job that

he had more talent for and was able to do . I think today the man

seems happier . His supervisor is getting a better product . That

was one solution . But when we identify a person who is out of his

element, as managers we will help that person get back in his

element so that he can perform better . I think in this case,

treated as an individual action, it worked very well .

In another case we had an employee, the Planning Branch Chief, who

was 70-years old . The job he was in changed during his 43 years of

employment . The man had an uncanny ability in writing and

understanding the planning system . But I had 50 percent of the

Planning Branch work out on contract and that required the Planning

Branch Chief to be the COR, the contracting officer's

representative . This older manager did not have experience in

contracting and I felt we needed a person who provided the

leadership, had the technical qualifications in planning, but also

could be a COR since we did half of the work on architect engineer

16
(A-E) contracts . This required a change in management style . The

man in that job did not want to make the transition because his

strong points were in planning, writing, and doing projects . So he

retired and we hired him back as a retired annuitant to work on the

.most important study we had, the District Engineer's report to the

GREAT (Great Environmental Action Team) I study .

He is happier now because he is working in an area for which he has

the most talent . We have a younger man who is 42 now managing the

Planning Branch and doing contract work . He had experience in

contract management .

I think you have to be very careful . We take the people and get

them in the right box . I find that once you make those decisions,

once you do those things, everybody is happier .

Q : Yes, yes .

A : I felt very good about both of those examples .

Q : When did you last command troops?

A : I had the command of the 52d Engineer Battalion Combat Heavy at Fort

Carson from 1975 to 1977 .
Q :

A :

It may sound like a drastic change in my line of questions, but the

reason I asked you that is -- have you thought much about the

difference between military command and your job here?

A : Well, you know, the similarities are amazingly close . There are

certain aspects of the District Engineer's job where you are

commander and director and certain

resources . The tie-in is that you

commander ; you are still a manager

role than in the District .

aspects where you are manager of

are a leader of people, you are a

of resources, but in a lesser

We have a 60-40 split in the District, but the skills are the

same . People have people problems and I am a people manager .

Organizations have organizational problems and I manage an

organization . You have a budget for the battalion and you have

budget for the District . So the training you get as a battalion

commander fits very nicely into the training you need for a

District . The one significant change is that with the troops you

are dealing with much younger people . You may have different types

of problems : drugs, drinking, sex . . . .

Q : Maybe the need for a surrogate father?

It's more of a need for counseling . In the Engineer District, you

have more professional people who are older, have established

families, and are established financially, so you don't have the

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a
personal involvement with their problems . But you still have

sickness and death . You play a role as a commander . But amazingly,

Mickey, the two jobs are so similar .

Q: L was going to ask you, the more we talk, about it -- there are

lessons you can take from one area of leadership to another .

A: I sat down after being battalion commander and came up with ten

rules, management philosophy . One was to create an environment of

trust . Another philosophy I had as a troop leader was to always

have a plan B . The same goes for District work . You can make the

best plans in the world, but if something goes wrong with that plan,

you have an alternative, plan B .

Know your boss . You have to know who you are working for ; you have

to know what he wants . We as managers are commanders ; we owe it to

our bosses to be supportive . They have objectives and goals and we

should be listening to our boss and doing a good job here. There

are many similarities between commands .

Q : I was going to ask you which projects in the District are causing

the most trouble . You mentioned that Lock and Dam 1 has been

difficult because it was closed for so long .

A : Well, Lock and Dam 1 is difficult from the management-construction

viewpoint, the technical viewpoint . We, the Civil Works District,

don't have the depth of construction management and contract

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management experience that we should . We gave up the military

programs out of the District, all those little construction projects

scattered all over . The many engineers who have been trained in

contract administration and construction management have left us .

In the civil works area you have large, long-term projects and you

put your construction manager and contract people on those and they

stay with them . We didn';t have the broad base in construction

management and contract management in the Civil Works District that

I thought we would .

When we moved into a $40-million total project, the Lock and Dam I

rehab, we found that we had a real need for a lot of those extra

people we didn't have . So we had a training program. When we

closed the river, the port of Minneapolis was closed off and we had

a time problem . We held meetings every month with congressmen and

people from Minneapolis and they were very concerned that we live

with the opening date .

When you do blasting and open up the 50-year-old locks, you don',t

know what you're getting into . We were basically going into the

unknown . We used demolition to internally blast a reinforced

concrete structure ; this had never been done, so we were pushing the

state of the art .

We put our two young captains and the project officer out there and

we built the office up . We got the Chief of Construction and the

Chief of Construction-Operations involved . We did a cost analysis

2 0
to see if our decision for a cost-effective acceleration was costeffective and looked for new ways to get it done .

We opened it six days early and stayed within the financial

bounds . It was a well-run project . We were not geared up for it so

it became a challenge to get squared away so we would do well . We

have another year of it, but I am not nearly as apprehensive because

the people have proved during the first year that they can stay with

a schedule and can do quality construction .

Now, you were asking about other problems .

Q : Yes . One I had in mind particularly was La Farge Dam on the

Kickapoo River . It'-s been a real political problem .

A : Well, that';s right . As you know, La Farge Dam matured at the time

when the environmental movement was at its height and had its

greatest influence . La Farge Dam was built in Wisconsin, which is

probably the most environmentally sensitive state . The project was

about 30-40 percent completed .

The people in the Kickapoo Valley were for it because they needed

flood protection . The environmentalists were against it . They

envisioned problems with water quality and they said that the

reservoir behind the dam would become a dead lake . They had a

governor at the time, Patrick Lucey, who didn't support the project

2 1
and two senators, William Proxmire and Gaylord Nelson, who were

against it .

Q : For different reasons, I presume .

A : For different reasons, but they were against it . The governor

stopped supporting it and when you lose your state support, the

project is going to stop . And it was stopped .

Now Congressman Baldus has put an item in a House bill that the La

Farge Dam in the Kickapoo Valley should be studied for a dry-dam

concept, and not be deauthorized .

The official Corps position is that if the people want to

deauthorize it, so be it . The Corps has recommended that it be

deauthorized . So it's kind of in limbo .

Of course, it really creates problems for me because it is not being

funded and yet I have to maintain it . I have to keep it clean and

keep security on it . I have a small amount of funds this year and

I'p still relocating a transformer station . I've run out of funds

this year . On 1 October I will have no more funding but I will have

the responsibility for it . It's still on the books .

But this project won't be deauthorized, I guess, until Congress

makes a point or the study is done on the dry dam. A task force was

2 2
formed in Washington . The White House, Kathy Fletcher, was involved

in this task force as the Corps was . This task report was finished

and it really didn't give a lot of direction on how to solve the

flood problem in the valley .

HUD has moved at Soldiers Grove and put out some funds to help

relocate part of the town . The town of Gay Mills wanted me to come

in and do a section 205 small flood control project study under the

continuing authority . Since the project has not been deauthorized,

I am unable to do a 205 project . Since then, the government has

said that the FEMA, Federal Emergency Management Agency, now has

overall responsibility over the Kickapoo Va ley.

So it's one of those areas where we were taken out of our

traditional role of flood control and a lot of other people got

involved and they haven't been any more successful than the Corps .

I always said that people who get into water resources management

areas and haven't been there before need to learn the lesson of how

difficult it is . Usually they won't get involved a second time .

I think there's a lesson learned for everyone . It's a very

difficult problem . It doesn'.t take much of my time . It happened

before me . I'm aware of it, I answer questions when they come in,

and keep tabs on it, but it',s not one of our real problems in the

District .

When you look at the Corps -- I think we have real problems . I

2 3
would say that you come into a District and you say, "What is the

strategy, what is the management philosophy, where is the District

going for the next 20 years?" You will probably get the answer "I

don',t know ."

And we had to get the realignment problem behind us when the Duluth

area office was transferred to Detroit . Anytime you reorganize or

realign, you have all kinds of political headaches and internal

headaches . We did realign and I think it was done for a good

reason . We wanted to make two lake districts and two river

districts within the North Central Division, with St . Paul being a

river district and Detroit a lake district .

So we dedicated ourselves to making a smooth transition and

transferred Duluth to the Detroit District . And I think we've

accomplished that . Since it was done, we have two major areas in

the St . Paul District ; the Upper Mississippi River where I have 240

miles, and the Red River Valley up north . The Red River basin is

about the size of Kentucky . The Red River flows north and has all

kinds of problems and it seems to flood annually .

So I said that to have a strategy and philosophy and direction for

the District, I need something for the Red River Basin and the Upper

Mississippi . On the Upper Mississippi River, we have a combined

state and federal agency team working on the GREAT I study . The

study was a $3 .5 million, five-year effort and involved the Fish and

Wildlife Service, the EPA, the states of Wisconsin, Iowa, and

24
Minnesota, the Corps, and the Coast Guard . The Corps cochairs it

with the Fish and Wildlife Service .

Now the GREAT study is being printed ; we are putting it together .

This is a time where, hopefully, we have - a balanced interagency

plan, economically, socially, and environmentally . The

environmentalists have their say in where we should go A n the

Mississippi River .

So I am doing the District Engineer's report that will try to

implement the GREAT I report . After I saw what the GREAT report was

trying to do, I said we have to set up .a philosophy and here is what

we are going to do . We are going to support the GREAT report even

though we don':t fully agree with it . We know it',s a multiagency

report and we can never fully agree with a multiagency report . But

I think the effort that went into it was good, the ideas were good,

and they are trying to do the right thing . So we anticipated that

the Corps should support it, and I am supporting the, findings and

trying to implement them as quickly as possible .

We put together a task force to work on the DE report that will help

implement the GREAT report . Maybe before this year is out we'll

have those two reports . I will use those reports as a plan to give

the District a 20-year strategy for where we're going in the

District .

Now we have a Red River recon report . This is a six-month effort

2 5
which has taken all the water resource reports and activities in the

Red River Valley and put them together in one report and an

executive summary . We're looking for direction on what needs to be

done in an innovative sense, what we have to do so the Corps can

help the people in the Red River Valley .

Currently we're doing well in emergencies in the Red River Valley .

In a flood we can demonstrate to the people that we can get

something done and go right out on emergencies . We're giving them

technical assistance on the Red River . We're doing a computer

model . We're working with the two states on the levee problems that

they have . Minnesota would raise the levee on one side and North

Dakota would do it on the other side . The standards were different

and it's causing interstate problems . So we're working in that

area .

We have the standard water resource projects in the Red River

Valley . We also have a new concept we call short-range, ring levees

around the farmsteads, because in the Minnesota Valley-North Dakota

area, the farms are built in the glacial lake bed and it's very

flat . A one-foot rise of the Red River and it floods for 20

miles . It's good farmland and the farms, in essence, are little

businesses with silos and equipment . We found that, cost-benefit

wise, we could ring-dike the real property, the farmsteads, and the

federal government would get an agreement from the farmer that he

would not ring-dike the agricultural land . We would be using it for

temporary storage .

26
Because of all that water in the Red River Valley and no place to

go, we need to get storage, so that's the trade-off. Build ring

levees around these farmsteads and get temporary storage . The

floods in the Red River are snowpack floods . They happen early in

the year . We can have that temporary storage, and then it drains

off and you can plant your crops in time to get a full crop .

So we';ve used that ring-levee concept and I think it',s worthwhile .

Q : Do you deal with the Canadian Government a lot? The Red River

problem?

A : Yes, but I'll get to - that in the next question. Let me finish up on

the Red River .

Q : Yes .

A : So we've made those efforts . We",re going to take this recon report,

brief all of the congressmen from the states, and try to come up

with a strategy of what to do in the Red River Valley in the next 20

years . With that document and strategy and the GREAT document and

strategy, I think the St . Paul District can plan from where we're

going . So as a corporate body, we have a direction .

So much for management and let's move on to the IJC (International

Joint Commission) .

2 7
Q : Carrying this one a little further, one of the problems you

mentioned last summer was that the District was too often reactive

-- to the press, to politicians, to environmentalists -- it didn't

have any real direction, didn't know where it was going .

A : Well, I think maybe it's a little hard because Colonel Gay had . . . .

Q : Maybe I misquoted you a little too .

A : Oh no, you're right . But I think Colonel Gay, the former District

Engineer, had a real good management philosophy, he had the

direction . I think the organization was such that when I came in as

a new person, I did not know where I was going, and in that learning

year had to learn those things that Colonel Gay learned to be able

to get this direction .

I want to get some documentation so that when a person comes in to

replace me, there is a corporate body plan . The district will know

where it's going . A new DE can come in . . . .

Q : And know where he's going?

A : And take over . He can go with the District or he can change

direction as he becomes more attuned to what's going on . I guess

when I first came in, I wasn't attuned and I felt that we were in

this transition . I think the transition was typified by this

realignment study. So we had to do a regrouping . I don't want to

28
leave the idea that I took over an organization that was floundering

around . That's not true . I took over a good District from a good

District Engineer and I tried to make it better .

Q : Do you have dealings with the Canadian Government over the Red

River?

A : Well, let's get to that . I think that the St . Paul District job is

exciting because I'm on three different boards with Canada -- I'm on

the Souris-Red River Board, the Lake of the Woods Board, and the

Rainy River Board . We meet every six months . In October-we meet in

ra

Canada and usually in April we meet in Washington . On the Red River

Board there is a representative of the United States Geological

Survey, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Corps . There are three

members from the Canadian side and we deal with problems in water

resources that affect Canada and the United States .

They're very concerned in Canada about what we do on the Red River

because the Red River flows north . They don't want us to channelize

it and dump our flood problems into Canada . They want us to handle

our flood problems and they're very concerned about our actions in

the Red River because it has international impact . So our dealings

with the IJC with Canada are very extensive .

Q : Do you deal with any particular Canadian agency or just as a member

of these boards?

29
A : Well, the members of the boards I'm on from Canada belong to water

resource-type agencies in Canada . One is regional and one is

national, so it'.s the same .

They don't deal with the Corps, they deal with me but I represent

the Corps and I represent the United States . So there's kind of a

dual-hatting there .

I deal with an agency in Manitoba which is similar to the Corps of

Engineers and they deal with me . But we do it through the board .

And the board that I'm on, the Souris-Red River Board, is a board

under the International Joint Commission . The International Joint

Commission overlooks the entire border from New York to Portland .

Q : Burlington Dam. Has that been the focus of controversy with the

Canadians? That';s on the Souris River, isn',t it?

A : Yes . We had a task force that looked at the impact on Canada . The

impact and dollar values came out like $360,000, so it's very

insignificant . But it's significant in doing the report well and

we',re going to brief the commission in October so that the people

understand the impact . We'.re looking at the impact of floods on

water quality, carp migration, and the environment . We will set up

the system so that Canada will be reimbursed even for the small

amount which will never go over the $300,000 range . But I think
it's healthy that we make this effort, even though it':s a token

effort, so it clearly demonstrates that the Burlington Dam has

really a minor impact on Canada .

Q : -Yes, that's important . How would you characterize your relationship

with the press here in St . Paul?

A : Well, when I came into the District I was very skeptical . I had

seen cases where District Engineers had been used by the press . I

was very fortunate that my boss said, "Bill, tell it like it is ."

So I have the freedom of being up front, as honest, I guess, as I

would ever want to be . It helps you sleep better at night .

The main thing is that if you're candid and up-front with the press,

they sense this . I feel our relationship has been excellent from

the point of view that we haven't been misquoted or abused by the

press or television . We':ve had a policy in the District of our

people being encouraged to talk about their area of expertise with

the press . I think it's important that we qualify that a little

bit . We want our engineers to talk about engineering, legal to talk

about legal .

I feel that our coverage from the press has been very good . General

Morris has said when the facts are not straight, write them a letter

and straighten them out . I haven't had to do that .
The other day I wrote a letter complimenting the Minneapolis Tribune

because a story on a very difficult project, on a Control Data

permit and a Department of the Interior moratorium, was handled very

factually . This factual handling of it really defused the issue .

The newspapers help me tell the people our story .

So I wrote the editor and said, "It really makes my job easier when

you do a complete reporting job like this ."

I'm pleased to say the editor printed the letter .

Q : Yes . What about with politicians, with the congressional delegates?

A : You know, you always get the image that everything is done in the

back room, cigarette smoke and cigar smoke behind the scenes . In my

dealings I have not seen that with the 22 congressional people I

have in my area . They have been well chosen by the people . They

are concerned citizens, concerned with their states, and have been

very helpful . They seek out information and we in the Corps give it

to them in a timely manner . We do that quite well . So I think that

we serve a real purpose in providing good information to the

congressmen and senators . I was pleased that they received me in a

friendly mode .

They don't seem to second guess you when they ask for your

determinations . I have not had a single case where a Member of

Congress tried to put pressure on me to get the Corps moving in a

certain way .

32
We have a very good relationship but I have the feeling that they

are seeking changes in the system. I feel that they are very, very

open to make changes and .that they are not happy. Senator

Durenberger is looking for new ways to handle the money and

priorities in water resources projects so it'.s not all roses for

me . I don't feel they all agree with what we're doing . But I think

that they're very cordial . Senator Durenberger kind of disagrees

with where we :'re going, but we are working well together .

Q :" Yes, but you're honest with each other?

A : Oh, I think so . We give a lot of information . This is helpful

because one time I was in Rochester talking about my flood control

project and an unhappy person who was being displaced because of the

Soil Conservation Service (SCS) reservoir attacked the Corps instead

of SCS .

I felt a little chagrined because it's hard to come to your own

defense . Congressman Erdahl stood up and said, "Hey, you're

wrong . The Corps did not do that . The Corps is a good

organization ." He set them straight . It really set a nice tone for

me because the congressman stood up and defended the Corps and our

action . Even when you're right, it's very difficult to counter

accusations . But someone else, a third party, can very easily do

this . I felt very, very good about that type of action .
Q : The pamphlets -- "Water Resources in Minnesota" and "Water Resources

in Wisconsin" -- list reduction of flood damage among the major

needs of all river basins in the District . Is flood control the

main focus of the District's program?

A : Interesting question . I never thought of it in those terms . I

would say flood control on the Red River is our greatest concern .

Probably our greatest concern on the Mississippi is navigation, and

maybe environmental aspects because when we deal with the navigation

problem we are more sensitive to the environmental issues right now .

So I would say that I have to divide that out .

Navigation on the Mississippi : I have the 13 locks and dams and 240

miles . This is so important because we are in a period of difficult

economics . The nine-foot channel is an economic lifeline to the

Upper Midwest .

It is very important, in terms of mobilization effort, if our nation

had to mobilize . The importance of the nine-foot channel is in

feeding the nation during mobilization -- this is really the focus

of how important the navigation is .

So I would say it is two answers : the lower part, navigation on the

Mississippi, and the upper part, Red River and Minnesota River flood

control .
Q : How can you reconcile the need to maintain that channel and the

pressure from environmentalists?

A : Well, before they built the nine-foot channel, they had a river that

was lazy and moved around . I would say once we built the dams and

the slack-water pools, we had more wetlands, more fisheries, and

more environmentally sound areas than we did before .

I'm not so sure that, by building the dams for the nine-foot

channel, we weren't the environmentalists' friends even though we

might not have been thought of as friends . Probably the greatest

concern the environmentalists have today' is the silting in of

backwaters, where some of these nice wet areas that are now slackwater pools will be lost in the future . I think the

environmentalists' greatest concern is in the future and where we

will go from there .

The environmentalists probably want us to develop more recreation .

We own a great deal of land in these slack-water pools, and we have

signed over a large amount of it for fish and wildlife refuges . I

feel that we do quite well environmentally in the slack-water pools

and I think probably our public image in this area has not been

recognized . We're sensitive now to where we put our dredged

material . We are spending a great deal of money to put the dredged

material where it is less damaging to the environment .
Q : Yes . Do you still think this is the greatest job in the world?

A : Well, I enjoy being the District Engineer because it's a challenging

job and one that can hopefully help people . We do the water

resource planning, stop floods, have the nine-foot channel

operating . We are serving people so this is a service job .

It's a job where I meet a lot of people . I enjoy that aspect of

it . I enjoy being the boss . I think that there are too many jobs

around that have undue pressures and all these pressures are selfinduced or induced by the boss . And I think we have set up a

climate here for getting the job done, being efficient . That's

where the job is rewarding and satisfying to me . I don't think that

I'll ever get a job again that is as enjoyable as being the District

Engineer .

36

It has changed over time . When I first got in the job, the

challenge was more work and fewer spaces, but the money was not a

problem . Twelve months later the money was a problem and the
spaces were not a problem because I wasn't getting enough money to

pay for the people I had . Then the real challenge was to pare down

what we were doing so that we didn'.t overspend .

So within a year, the management emphasis reversed itself 180

degrees . You can't get complacent in the job because the challenges

are there . But they are challenges that every engineer manager

would enjoy because they are the kinds of things that we were

trained for . It is a rewarding job .

Q : What do you think about Ray Merritt's history of the District?

A : Well, the District history by this gentleman was a contract effort

over a three-year span . The scope of work given to the man on this

contract must have been well-written because the history was well

written . It's not one glorifying the Corps or reciting the names of

everybody who served in the District . IVs not something we tried

to do to build the image . I think it was written with the idea of

telling the story .

From my reading of it, I get the idea that the gentleman did very

well telling the story and looking at it across the board, not

dwelling on any one area too long . I think there was a good

balance. I gave a copy of it to Governor Dreyfus of Wisconsin, the

former chancellor of the University of Wisconsin . He is a local

history buff and it just tickled his fancy . He read every bit of

that history that dealt with Wisconsin .

3 7
I think Merritt did a very good job of showing what the Corps does

without harping on the Corps and yet treating the history well . I

feel pleased with it and I',m going to recommend that each District

Engineer write a supplement chapter at the end of his three-year

tour and put in perspectives hopefully in the same professional way

as Ray Merritt did in his writing so that each three years will have

an update . Maybe after another 10 or 20 District Engineers, someone

will go to volume two .

Q : You're going to give us an update at the end of your tour?

A : Oh yes, I',m saving all my letters to the General and interviews with

the press and yourself -- I'm going to take all those at the end of

my tour and sit down and do something that -- I'll break my own rule

and write it myself .

I',ve always felt that a District Engineer who picks up a pencil

other than for his signature was taking his time away from guiding

the ship of the state . So I'm going to break my rule and write this

myself, because I feel this hopefully will be something that the new

DE can use to bridge the gap .

Q : Is this volume by Merritt useful to you?

A : I'm sure that anytime we tell a story well, it is useful to the

organization in the sense that it improves the professional image of

the organization .

38
I read it as a new DE and it gave me an understanding of where the

District came from and a feel for history. Hopefully, when we

understand history, we don't make the same mistakes . So I would say

yes, in the personal sense, it prepared me for the job . For an

organization, it's helpful to tell the story in a professional way,

but,+ if there are other benefits, I haven't run across them yet .

I',m still looking for ways to use the history . The other day I did

use part of it in a speech ; it was good background for that .
Third Interview

Q : Last summer when we talked you referred to your tour of duty here as

consisting of three one-year phases, where you learned, formulated

strategies and plans, and then institutionalized what you have

establi shed .

How would you evaluate your second year now?

A : Well, the second year was driven by a number of outside forces . The

most significant was a new Division Engineer who had a different

management style than the old Division Engineer . Both effective,

both different . Driven also by the Reagan administration coming in

and the Carter administration going out and the development of the

concept of giving the government back to the people . Signals very

quickly came down through the system . People were stating over and

over again that government should get off the people's backs .

At the start of 1981 I established a number of objectives . They

were to improve the District, improve mobilization training, and

improve the way we do business . I eased back on the main thrust of

the job of getting the projects through the planning cycle, approved

and built, and this was probably unfortunate .

31 July 1981
Now it is clear, having overcome many of the management problems,

our people are now working almost full time in getting projects

built . So my time spent on extraneous things has dwindled . My role

as a planner and mover of projects is almost full time,

characterized by our reorganizing to establish an independent

Planning Division . The institutionalizing of this division and

having it in place with the bugs worked out when I leave in June is

first priority . So, I suppose, the second year had many changes in

it for the system and for me .

Q : You mentioned the change in administration in .Washington . There was

also a change in the Chief of Engineers ih the past year . Would

that have a significant impact?

A : Well, I think so, but not because General Bratton doesn't think like

General Morris or doesn't have the same goals and objectives . I

think most Chiefs of Engineers reflect the national policy and it

was very natural that, when General Bratton came in, he began to

reflect the policies of the Reagan administration .

It was probably because of the change of Chief of Engineers that we

saw the impact of the Reagan administration quicker ; while we were

looking for General Bratton's policies, what we saw coming were the

administration's policies . The timing of the changing of the Chief

and the administration was such that both events seemed to reinforce

each other .

4 1
Q : Where does the change in the administration hit you the hardest?

A : People started saying that the government should get off your

back . Let's make a decision . Let's move things . This chorus

supported the quote that I love so well, that delay is the most

devious form of denial . The thrust of the Reagan administration is

to make things happen . Stop delaying . Make decisions on the

information you have and move on . That was very evident when I took

my Marshall project before the Board of Engineers for Rivers and

Harbors .

Q : What's the Marshall project?

A : It is a Marshall, Minnesota, flood control project . I had to go up

to the Board of Rivers and Harbors with it . The members of the

board reflected the sense that they would not go back to get more

data or to restudy, but announced, "Let's look at what you've got,

let's make a decision and be decisive, and move on ." So most of

those generals on the Board were reflecting General Bratton's

attitude of "Let's move ."

Q : So getting government off people's backs comes to moving projects

faster rather than stopping them?

A : That':s right . And it comes to "Hey, let's make decisions ." We also

translate it into "Let's be more concerned about the dollar . LeV s

move things now because we are continually having personnel cuts ."

42
So we get, I think, a sense of urgency of "Let';s get something

done," more so than with the Carter four years, where it was "Let's

have more study ." Or, "Let's answer more environmental concerns ."

And we got bogged down with the bureaucracy . I think in the Reagan

realm of things there is less bogging down with the technocrats and

bureaucrats .

Q : What about regulatory functions?

A : I think the new administration will take a hard look at the rollback

and reducing the Corps' 404 and section 10 permitting. But we in

the St . Paul District are in a very environmentally sensitive

region . We have the potholes, the wetlands, and the 10,000 lakes

and the people that we serve are locked in step to preserve these

wetlands . So they favor Corps involvement in the regulatory

program . But there are other parts of the country where I think

there should be a rollback and the Corps should get out . The

administration reflects this rollback philosophy -- less regulatory,

less involvement .

The difficulty is that while we are regulating, with federal

regulations that are uniform countrywide, the regions are so

drastically different . So I feel that Minnesota and Wisconsin don't

like being under the big umbrella . They would like federal

regulation to be more sensitive to the regions and more reflective

of what they want .

43
I think that the 404 program now in effect is working well . Every

one understands it . I guess my approach for this region would be to

fine-tune it and retain it, not roll it back.

Q : Do you have local demand to maintain the regulatory program?

A : Well, we have local demands and supports . We had one of the two

Corps of Engineers public hearings on the new 404 permitting

regulation carried in the Federal Register . General Smith held the

meeting here and Wisconsin and Minnesota came out loud and clear

that they don't want to rollback the program or take the

discretionary authority away from the District Engineer and move it

to Washington . They more or less like the manner and the way things

have been handled in the old regulation, and the trend of going to

more nationwide permitting is pretty suspect . They have great

concern about this proposed change .

But I think the administration will look at the new proposed change

of 404 and see that the lessening of the regulatory functions

through more nationwide permits will be a way of getting the

government off of peopl e',s backs .

Q : Are you establishing a Planning Division this year?

A : The groundwork is being laid . The thrust of Generals Heiberg and

Smith is concern that planning is not getting the visibility it

should and the planning system is not working the way it should .

44
Much of what needs to be changed in the planning procedure is not in

my province to affect . One thing that I can do is set up a Planning

Division . For some time I fought against going to a full Planning

Division . The reason I was against it was that I found it takes

less expended energy on our part not to be the front runner until

higher headquarters are ready for such change .

Citing an example -- everyone was advised, "Go to the Planning

Division ." The New York District ran through the exercise and put

their paperwork in, and then the RMO (Resource Management Office)

disapproved it and said, "Go back and do more justification ." I

felt that if I waited, the groundswell would' be such that when I put

in my paperwork, I could do it with less wasted time and energy .

General Smith said he though the DE should be the planner and should

be more involved in planning . So I came back and met with all my

supervisors and project managers . We talked about the Planning

Division concept . One of the key factors that helped make my

decision was the attitude of support from supervisors and the

functional managers who obviously felt that getting ready to go to

construction and turning dirt should have higher priority than

planning projects .

But the whole thrust of having a Planning Division would be to give

more visibility to planning . I began to realize that all my study

managers and planners were a little more frustrated with the system
while my project managers who handle design and engineering were

not . Obviously our District was giving more support to engineering

than to planning .

To give planning equal footing, I decided that the only thing I

could do was to move to a full Planning Division . Now we have the

Deputy District Engineer working with the corporate body to come up

with a proposed organization . But I started to make the informal

changes immediately . I have built a new office next door to my

office for the Planning Chief . The Chief of Engineering Division is

in an office on the other side of me . So physically and

psychologically we are creating a balance between engineering and

planning . Also, as a consequence, Vin more involved in the planning

process .

Q : You talked about planning problems last year . You talked about that

as a basis for moving branch chiefs around . The guy who sits in

planning for eight years, I think you said, doesn't see anything

come out and gets frustrated .

A : Well, as we',re coming up with the organization of a new Planning

Division and a new Engineering Division, we are identifying spaces

at the GS-12 or 13 level that will allow interchange of planner's and

engineers between the Engineering Division and the Planning

Division . The reason for this, as we develop the organization, is

to build in an executive development program . My greatest fear is

that, by splitting planning out of engineering, we polarize the

4 6
activities and have a greater split and less support . Planning

needs engineering to complete their studies . By cross training and

having the executive development program, I hope that we will reduce

the chances of polarization . This program will give a broader base

for the young executives when their turns come to get promoted .

Hopefully, they won't have tunnel vision . They will have served in

more than one position .

Q : Last year you emphasized as important two particular programs or

project areas : the Red River basin and the GREAT I study. Where do

these stand now?

A : As you know, GREAT is the "Great Environmental Action Team,"

established to study the upper Mississippi River . The study team

was a joint team composed of federal agencies and the respective

states . The GREAT I study has been completed and published . The

District Engineer implementation report has been finished and

published . The Division Engineer notice that endorses both GREAT I

(St . Paul) and GREAT II (Rock Island) has been completed . So we

have sent the GREAT studies, the implementation studies, and the

Division Engineer notice to Washington .

The studies basically promote a balanced use of the river --

navigation, fish and wildlife refuge, and recreation.
We have determined that we will recommend funding in 1983 for the

GREAT I implementation up to the $3 million level, which will fund

up to the basic program . The basic program is probably the twothirds point of what the total recommended GREAT I wanted .

The last one-third is the big dollar value items . It is going to

take many years to get there . So I would see a yearly budget of

around $3 million for a number of years to help us implement GREAT.

Obviously, there is some opposition . There are some folks from the

navigation interests who will lobby in Congress to keep us from

spending the extra money because they feel that all the funds the

Corps is getting through collection, through the fee-added tax,

should be spent on navigation and not on the environment . And they

look at the additional $3 million in the GREAT study as largely

being spent on environmental enhancements .

Q : Environmentalists aren't happy with it either, are they?

A : Well, no one is because, I think, it's a balanced plan . Obviously,

we tried to swim in the middle of the river . We tried to do those

things that we thought were environmentally sensitive as a trade

off. The whole report was put together by a committee and different

special interest groups . So obviously it is a compromise report .

And everybody who had to compromise is concerned . The Coast Guard

is concerned about reduced depth of dredging . The navigation

48
industry is concerned about increased barge traffic . But I think it

is a balanced plan and a significant improvement over what we had

ten years` ago .

Q : Is the Red River basin still a primary area of concern to you?

A : Yes, it is . I have the General scheduled to dome up here in early

September . We're going to have the conference report on the Red

River basin completed . The task force report -- which was worked

out with the states of North Dakota and Minnesota -- will soon be

finished .

We're going to brief General Smith on our new initiative or

innovative ideas on how to solve the problems in the Red River

Valley . Basically, we are looking at it as a basin-wide approach .

We are looking at all the missions that all the state and federal

agencies can perform to make it a better flood-proof plan . We're

looking at new initiatives . Some of them are not traditional . And

I '-m sure that I'm either going to have to sell them or the Corps

hierarchy may not buy .

Q : Which ones are these?

A : Well, the most significant is the concept of a technical resource

center . We, over the years, provided the states and the watershed

districts with technical information and analysis of hydraulics or

computer runs of river profiles .

4 9
Currently, we are running four different kinds of computer models on

the Red River, and the data and information are distributed . We

have been paying for that service piecemeal out of General

Investigation (GI) funding . There is a trend to change the thrust

of the GI funding to identify what we are really doing and call it

what it really is . So we came up with the vision that the technical

engineering resource center would be a small organization within the

St . Paul District that would do the computer modeling and other

hydraulic engineering in the valley, and provide that engineering

data to the states, watershed districts, and other federal

agencies .

The primary benefit to the Corps is to maintain the skills that made

the Corps great -- the engineering skills . What the country gets is

engineering data going down to the grass roots levels to help

decision-makers at those levels make better water resource

management decisions .

What's happening now is that those people are making their decisions

with inadequate engineering data . Their chances of making a wrong

decision in a piecemeal sense that affects the total basin approach

are quite great .

What we want to do is help them get better engineering data so they

can do their mission better . Now, their mission at the local

engineering level is really not infringing on our larger federal

mission, so I can't see it as a turf problem . In a sense, having

50
this resource center is an innovative approach, and the concept of

having people and maintenance dollars provided each year to run it

may be difficult to sell . Right now, anything new is looked at very

closely because you don't have spaces or money to do it .

The technical resource center is a vision that I have for the

future . I can see the Corps maintaining engineering groups

throughout the country with great engineering expertise in their

basins . This would maintain the grass roots level of the Corps'

expertise as we continue to lose engineering skills as projects are

designed and built . If we don't have some place for these people to

work to maintain that center of expertise, when the new missions of

the future come along, we won't have the skills to do them.

Q : Ring levees aren't considered that innovative any more? That's

pretty accepted?

A : Well, we had a prototype 205 project in a county in North Dakota .

We did a recon report and sent it out trying to get the ring levees

around the farms done under nonstructural alternatives . It was

accepted here . It was accepted by local people, but I have a

feeling that I';m going to have trouble with selling this concept or

trying to fund through the small project program . There again it is

a new approach and we know the age-old fright about trying to get

people in the system to look at something new. If it's new, it

should be justified ; I support that concept . We don't want to go

off half-cocked and do something that doesn't make much sense .

51
Q : Sure . It is being considered in Washington now?

A : No, the Red River basically is going to be pushed in two

directions . One is flood protection, because it has a history of

flooding . The other is drought contingency. One of our findings on

a basin-wide approach is that we're in a cycle where we have plenty

of water . But if we go back to conditions like in the thirties,

when we had very little water, then water conservation contingency

is a very big deal . We're asking for quite a bit of money in FY 83

to start drought and water conservation contingency planning . So 1

would see the Red River going in two directions . We've got to

continue to provide flood protection, and we've got to have this

drought and water conservation contingency planning .

Q : Drought and flooding are just two sides of the same coin .

A : That's right, and now we're looking at only one side .

Q : In the year coming up you mention a Planning Division that is being

considered and developed now. What other plans do you have for

institutionalizing the programs that you've developed?

A : Well, when we started out the first year, I didn't like my computer

shop . Now we have the new Harris computer . We've been hiring

college students, co-ops, and masters degree level students from St .

Olaf College who studied on the Harris 500 and they are adapting all

our software . By the time I leave here, we're going to have the

5 2
computer operation squared away. We recently let a contract to buy

the automatic word processors . This equipment will be compatible

with the Harris, so we'll have a lot of flexibility in automatic

word processing .

We've improved office spaces . We've had a number of walking tours

and inspections . We',re now giving our people a more comfortable

pl ace to work .

We have been concerned about the management of the District . So we

started what I call the "decentralization and delegation system" and

the use of the corporate body concept . This,includes training the

project managers, alternating the different types of staff meeting,

and briefing me on different projects on a monthly basis . We

incorporated a strategy session every two months with the Chief of

Engineering, the Chief of Planning, and the Chief of Program

Development where we lay out the strategy of the District .

We have worked on and are developing our ten-year plan . We wanted a

20-year plan and weren'.t able to do it . So we cranked back and now

we call it a five-to-ten-year plan . And we are looking at that so

we can get our strategy set in the out years . The only real

planning the District does is the planning required to get the

budget together . We talk about the '82 budget, which is the one

coming right around the corner, but we plan for what is in the FY 83

budget . If it weren':t for those budget exercises, some Districts

wouldn't really do any long-term planning .

53
I'.ve written a management by objectives regulation for the District,

I have taken all the things we've been doing management wise and put

them in that regulation . I felt very pleased with the recent visit

of the Inspector General (IG) . We told him what our management

philosophy was and he went down and talked to all the people and

said, "Hey, it's working ." This was one of the few Districts he',s

seen where every 15 minutes they don't run to the head shed to ask

for a decision .

We delegate it down so the people who should be making the

decisions, at the project manager level and the branch and division

chief level, are making them . I think to institutionalize you have

to put it in regulations . You have to get it down in black and

white and use it so that people are familiar with it . Then the next

manager who comes in, hopefully, will fine-tune it and continue the

established management technique .

Q : I hope you share it with me before I leave today .

A : Oh, would you like a copy? I'd be happy to give you one . I

recently realized that we didn't have a mechanism for sharing good

ideas from one District to the next . I wrote General Smith and

recommended that the IG be given a new mission -- to be the

mechanism for sharing good ideas . The way I envision this working

is that the IG would come in with a 30-minute new idea briefing, or

a "lesson learned" document he picked up in his visits to the

5 4
Districts . This would always be a changing list and the District

Engineer would see the good ideas being developed, and the good

things being done in other Districts .

Q : The constant exposure . What have been your greatest challenges and

problems this year?

A : Well, we had a little problem . Some of the people from one of the

dredges falsified travel vouchers, a travel fraud .

We caught this in the office and we started an investigation . We

found that it was pretty extensive . . We ;called the FBI and they i

completed an investigation of 12 people . Working with the U .S .

attorney, they indicted the four worst cases and tried them . I took

the hard position of having the people go to court in a criminal

prosecution . However, the judicial system was very inconsistent .

Of the four cases indicted, one pleaded guilty, one was found not

guilty, one was found guilty, and- one case was thrown out of court .

Q : Every possibility .

A : Like rolling dice. There was an article in a local paper about

justice rolling dice which referred to this case .

Q : When did this take place? When were the trials?
dozen . So I formed another inspection team and we went back, and

the number of suspected individuals may approach 30 .

I'm not sure where it's going, but my approach has been that you

obviously cannot tolerate this and we should take a firm stand . So

we are suspending people and collecting all the money back for the

government . We are making it part of the individual's official

record . I feel that some of the penalties are quite heavy.

One worker who had vouchers running back for a number of years,

maybe from the '.75 time frame, falsified vouchers worth quite a sum

of money, thousands and thousands of dollars . His probation officer

came to me, and he ran through the list of things that had happened

to him since he made those false travel claims . One, he hired a

lawyer at $11,000 . Two, he was convicted . Three, he lost $800

worth of work during the trial . He is being suspended three days

for each bad voucher, so that's another suspension of 69 days or

about $7,000 worth . When you total up the payback, this man's

indiscretion has cost him about $33,000, plus the adverse publicity,

5 6
the mental duress and the stress of the FBI investigation, the

stress of going to federal court, and the publicity in the

newspapers'afterward . So we felt we took very strong action toward

these people. I feel there will be a signal sent throughout the

Corps that you can't get away with travel voucher fraud .

So I spent quite a bit of time that I didn'.t want to spend on this

personnel problem, but being Commander, the District Engineer, I had

no choice .

Q : During this period, what happened to your ability to manage your

program? ,

A : Well, we decentralized and we delegated . We have a corporate body

of 30 to 35 good people running this District . So if I am out of

the net by being up at the International Joint Commission meetings,

or if I'm out at a project, or if I'm handling a travel voucher

fraud case, the District still runs, because it is a corporate

entity . It is not dependent on any one person . That's the beauty

of decentralizing and delegating . The other benefit is that you

train the young managers and then when it's their turn, they will do

a better job . I think that the decentralizing I'-ve done here, the

delegation, and all the training of the executives is going to pay

great dividends for the next three District Engineers . But it has

also paid dividends to me because I didn't have to be here with my

hand on the throttle every day .

5 7
Q : You can turn your back .

A : You can turn your back and be assured that things run well .

Q : What other significant challenges have you had in this past year?

A : I think that probably the realization that you have to change your

method of operation to get projects through the system .

We here always worked through the system . If something is wrong,

you work with your higher headquarters, and you try to move projects

through the Corps system . I guess maybe in the last few months I

have come to realize that my three years are running out and that

I'm not moving projects . The projects are not getting through the

system.

I guess I realize that I have to stir the pot more, that I have to

go to the congressmen and senators, build fires under our people,

and that we have to work projects through the Corps system and

through the political system . I have come to the conclusion for my

last year I can't just wait until all the minutia is done before

sending a project forward, and the technocrats or the termites, the

minutia people at that level, ask a lot of questions and send it

back . I can't live with a system that runs back and forth between

termites . What I have to do is wrap up my projects, kick them up to

the higher headquarters, and encourage General Smith to support me

and pass them up to higher headquarters .

58
What you do is find yourself going outside the system, getting the

language written into law so that the Corps system is shortcircuited: That bothered me because philosophically you want to

support the system, you want to support your boss, and you want to

work through the chain of command . On the other hand, if I'm going

to move some projects out, then Vve got to go both ways .

Q : How does the OCE react to this?

A : I think the key managers, the General Smiths and the General

Heibergs, understand the system and they probably say "Fine, he',s

getting the work done ." And they will probably be tolerant . At

least I hope so . The technocrats will never own up that they are

technocrats and they are the termites trying to sink your wooden

ship .

Q : Of course, General Heiberg came up through the same system you came

through, right?

A : That's right, but it took me a while to get to the point where I was

saying, "Hey, I can',t be a good soldier alone and get it done . I've

got to be a good soldier and I'm going to be a good manager, but

I've got to work on it in more than one direction ." So far I'm

doing this . My projects are getting attention . Things are

happening and I haven't been called down . But it makes me feel

uneasy, because it is not what you'd think the standard DE role

would be . I have the fear, Mickey, that I'm going to finish my tour

59
and that I've not done everything I was supposed to do in getting my

projects built . So I guess at the end I'm beginning to reach the

point where, damn it, I've got to push something through . I've got

to get this done . I've got to clean that up . So this year, I'm

going to push and pull and yell and scream and see what happens .

Q : I want to remind you that two years ago you told me you saw the

District as tending toward being in the reactive role -- reacting to

NCD (North Central Division), reacting to OCE, reacting to the

congressional delegation, and so on . You're taking the District out

of that kind of role though with this kind of activity, aren't you?

A : Well, when you go political, or you start stirring the pot, then

people are put under pressure. So we find ourselves still reacting

to get information out . But I think that as a management style, we

in the District now are planning out one year, we're looking to the

future in our strategy sessions . We know where we have to work and

where we have to put our manpower . So we're getting ahead of the

problems by creating outside influences, by working both sides of

the street . We get short-fused inquiries now because people need

this data or that data to help handle the pressures . I guess we are

doing better on anticipating problems, we're doing better on

managing and not being in the reactive mode in management . But when

you stir the pot, something will bubble up and you have to be in a

reactive mode to handle that bubble .
Q : I guess District Engineers do need close relations with

congressional delegations . Are you suggesting that a District

Engineer ought to go out and actively seek help from the

congressional delegation by saying, "This is what we are doing, this

is what I need"?

A : Oh, absolutely . Most District Engineers .do this . Most of them are

visiting their congressmen and senators on a yearly basis . But

there is a tendency as a new District Engineer not to speak out . So

the tendency the first year when you visit your congressmen is to

smile and listen and not stir the pot because you have enough to

keep you busy .

Q : Right .

A : And the second year, you stir half the pot because you are busy

within your own organization . But your third year you say, "My

gosh, I'm leaving," so you are more actively stirring the pot .

One reason is because you are more knowledgeable . Another is

because you want to get things done before you leave . So a thirdyear District Engineer is much more effective than the first-year

District Engineer in getting things done .

That is why I recommended to General Heiberg the big brother system,

because each incoming District Engineer needs to get a feel for how

things are done . I felt that since we don't have a school for

6 1
District Engineers, one approach would be the big brother

approach . An incoming District Engineer would visit a third-year

District Engineer and spend three or four days with him and they

would share ideas, techniques, and comments .

The big brother program was cut by the Deputy Chief because of

travel funds . I believe the program would have worked well and I'm

a little disappointed that it didn't catch on .

Q : What are the major challenges you foresee in the next year here?

A : Well, I think we're going to have problems getting monies . I think

we're going to have problems with continuing manpower cuts . And the

challenges there will be to fence off the heart and soul of the

District so that you're not cutting out the skills that will

significantly reduce our capability to do good water resource

projects for the people .

I think we are going to see caps or upper limits put on budgets . If

you have a budget of $100 million, obviously people are not going to

look favorably at an increase to $120 million . It will require some

long-range planning to figure out which monies to ask for in a

priority sense to do the most good and be under the limit . I think

with the Reagan administration you are going to see many caps .

You're going to have to plan your program so you can work on those

projects that have the most economic benefits for the people . I
think the long-range plan is going to be very essential, because

you're going to have to work to get the best projects done within

those limitations .

Q : How did the rotation of branch chiefs in the Construction-Operation

Division work?

A : I have a story that typifies the advantage to a District of rotating

branch chiefs . We moved all four branch chiefs in the ConstructionOperations Division, construction supervisor to regulatory,

regulatory to construction, project operations to maintenance

dredging, maintenance , dredging to project' operations . Two months

later we were getting ready to brief General Smith, the new Division

Engineer . Each of the branch chiefs had about a 20-minute briefing

on their branch . The briefings were rescheduled to a nighttime

setting and one of the branch chiefs had a sick wife and went

home . And so, in the eleventh hour, the former branch chief briefed

his current branch and then an hour later briefed his old branch,

and did an outstanding job on both . Isn't it wonderful to have

people there who understand both branch functions? Currently, one

branch chief has had experience in three of the four branches . So

when he is acting Division Chief he is much more able . Each of the

branch chiefs had misgivings about the changes . I have talked to

all of them since and they are now all enthusiastic and convinced

that we did the right thing .
I think the real advantage for the Corps of Engineers is that we

have broadened the base for each of, the managers and have improved

the quality of the executive . We've made each of those supervisors

better qualified to compete for the next higher position when it

comes along . I have the feeling it will be looked on very

positively by the other divisions and other branch chiefs and it

will make it easier for me to do an executive development throughout

the District . Since then the Division Engineer has put out an

executive development regulation which is very supportive of our

program.

Q : Have you carried it over to the other divisions?

A : Yes, we've moved two section chiefs in the Engineering Division . We

have moved all the section chiefs in the Comptroller's shop . We're

going to build in the executive development program when we go to a

Planning Division and Engineering Division concept . By the time I

leave here most everyone will have a chance to work in a new job,

with a positive long-term impact on the organization .

Q : What other efforts have you made this year to increase that sense of

corporate responsibility and cohesion that you talked about last

year?

A : Well, a lot of ideas, jobs, or actions come up that have to be

tried . We have to have the corporate body enter the discussion so

that it can develop good ideas and good concepts .

64
When we had General Smith or other VIP visits, we've let all our

project managers brief . On the next visit, we let all our branch

chiefs brief . On the last visit, we had our section chiefs brief .

So we've made sure that everyone in the corporate entity is getting

visibility and is participating .

We've insured that project managers brief the District Engineer

monthly . The section chiefs and the branch chiefs answer in a

feedback role to the successes and failures . I think that by

sharing the work and sharing the success with the corporate body we

have started making these people feel that they are part of the

corporate body . ,,

Q : General Smith's reaction was pretty good, too .

A : Yes, he has let me use the corporate body approach, delegation and

decentralization . The key disadvantage to this approach is that the

decision-maker, the District Engineer, has to have feedback to know

what's going on . If you delegate and let somebody else do all the

work and make decisions, then it is very easy, if they don't

communicate with you, to have a serious breakdown in

communications . My managers have been very good about feeding me

information and I've made a strong effort by notes, letters, and

phone calls to keep General Smith informed .
He's been very good about not getting on my turf and he has let me

do my thing . His only concern is, "Don't surprise me ." I think

that because we keep him informed, he feels comfortable with what

we're doing . He has endorsed it and supported it .

The Engineer Inspector General who has inspected us, who liked our

management style and the high morale of the people, lived next door

to General Smith and maybe reinforcement from the Engineer Inspector

General convinced the General that the St . Paul District is running

well and the system is working .

Q : I don't know if you mind getting back to this, but you talk about

your morale and your corporate body, and this travel fraud thing

must have been a real shock to you .

A : Well, no, because I guess human nature being what it is, we are not

all perfect and we all make mistakes . It was kind of isolated among

the crew on one dredge . That dredge throughout the summer would

move up and down the river, and those people are traveling quite a

bit . The fraud started happening in the '75-'76 time frame . I

picked up on it in 1979. Now the morale on the dredge obviously is

very low because all of the crew want to see the black cloud moved

and just get back to normal .

This is an isolated area of low morale . I think when the majority

of people see that they have submitted correct travel vouchers all

6 6
these years and when someone does wrong they are punished, this doesn't

tend to lower morale of the people who do what is right . In fact, it

may increase their morale .

Q : How has your relationship with the press been?

A : I started out with the Badger philosophy of openness and everything

done in a fishbowl . And we have a little different PAO concept

here . My Public Affairs Officer doesn't necessarily do all the

coordination with the press . He runs the office and does the PAO

planning . But our project managers and our project engineers have

the authority to speak to the press or TV and make statements . The

only thing I ask of them is to tell the truth, tell it like it is,

and give your name . Own up to the fact that you are the person

talking . I don'.t like these statements, "Some Corps official

said ." And so, by delegating that authority down and allowing them

to talk openly to the press, they come across as being open and not

trying to cover up . So we don't have a lot of digging and

scratching and reporters coming to me with embarrassing questions .

I've used that open approach and we haven't been burnt yet in two

years . Knock on wood .

Q : Last year was pretty good then?
A : It was very good . We have continued with this open window policy,

allowing everyone in the District to speak to the press . I'.m

convinced that is the way to go .

Because if you gag your people and they don't come across, the

reporter has to talk to the Colonel to get the word . Then it comes

across as a cover-up because I'm not as prepared as the project

manager would be, and the good or straight information is delayed in

getting to the press . So I would feel that this aspect of our

public affairs is good .

Now, obviously, you get the opinions of people in the press who

don't agree with what you're doing . Obviously, the press writes up

the proponent's and the opponent's points of view. But at least the

articles are corning out and are factual . And at least the

opponent's point of view doesn't, in most cases, misquote us .

Q : As far as how you are getting along with your congressional

delegation, I think you were telling me last year that you had

disagreements with quite a lot of them, but your relations were

cordial and open . Has that held?

A : I'm not sure how many we've had disagreements with . I think that

the congressional people could be put in different categories . Some

are very active in water resources . Others are not . Their

specialty may be social programs, social security, financing, and so

6 8
forth and they are not active in my programs . So how active a

congressman or senator is will be predicated on whether there is a

critical project in his area . If he is subjected to a groundswell

of local pressure, then he is going to be interested .

Whether the project is developed to a decision point is also

important . Or is that project at a point where he can enter the net

and do something constructive with it? So we briefed those local

congressmen who have an active interest, who have local support for

a project, who are trying to do something . We have a couple of

congressmen whom we hear from only on a regulatory matter when they

are contacted by a constituent . So I won.'t say there are

disagreements . I guess there are different levels at which the

congressman wants to be engaged in the Corps' programs . I don't

think we have anybody in our congressional delegation who is antiCorps .

Q : Is it Senator Durenberger from Minnesota who wanted more state

involvement?

A : Senator Durenberger has been very active and I worked with him quite

a bit . He wants to be very supportive . I think he was quite a

supporter of the Moynihan-Domenici bill, which supported federal

grants to the states with a priority of water projects within the

states, where funds would be transferred from the states to the

Corps . I don't think that would help any . I think what helps is

69
trying to improve what we are doing project-to-project . But I think

Senator Durenberger was concerned that the Corps' planning process

was not moving fast enough and this was one means of making it move

faster . This was a change . I feel that this is the wrong change .

Or maybe we are not ready for that change .

Q : I'd like to question you about a few specific aspects of the

District's program . For instance, Operation Foresight . Is the

District still involved in Operation Foresight?

A : Operation Foresight was a snowpack emergency in the '68-'69 time

frame . Snow pack in this part of the country was related directly

to a flood situation if you had rapid thawing and melting .

Operation Foresight set the groundwork for a lot of things that

happened in Public Law 99 emergency funding . One was that you could

spend emergency funds before the emergency . And Foresight was the

mover of that policy decision . It was a good decision . We in this

area went through Foresight, which was quite extensive in the

potential flood areas . Today you can see evidence of Operation

Foresight in almost every community in the Red River Valley . We

have detailed plans and have identified people who will go out and

be area engineers at various locations . So we carry out extensive

emergency planning for our area, and this was probably a fallout

from Foresight . Foresight itself we don't use .

Q : I see .

70
A : Now one thing I should say is we haven't had the major floods in my

two years as District Engineer. The Corps performs superbly in a

flooding situation . It is where we get the highest marks, the

highest visibility . That's where we help the people the most --

during emergency floods .

Q : Two or three weeks ago you had substantial floods .

A : We had some high water in Rochester, but not really a flood . So I

guess my last chance at fighting floods will be next year . In the

fall I plan to have all my emergency plans reviewed . We'll have a

planning exercise (CPX) to be sure that if in March, April, or May

of next year we have floods, the St . Paul District does well . I

think it is crucial that the Corps continues to do well in emergency

situations .

Q : What is the status of Lock and Dam 1 now?

A : Lock and Dam 1, as you remember, Mickey, is the four-year, $44

million rehab of a 50-year-old lock . We had a situation where we

had to close the river in December, de-water the lock, work until

1 May, and reopen the lock so that we had river transportation

during the summers . We put a condition on ourselves of doing work

during the winter and not being allowed a slip in the schedule . We

accomplished all the blasting, put it back together, and opened the

7 1
lock on 26 April, about five days before the 1 May suspense that I

gave Congress and the Port of Minneapolis authorities .

This year we went into the lock again . We kept finding changes and

poor site conditions . We had to accelerate the contract, like we

did the year before .

We had many modifications to contend with but still we opened the

lock on 2 May, missing the target by one day . I feel that when the

Corps promised the people, the river interests, and the port

interests that we would have the river open, we had to live up to

our promise . It is a good project and Lock and Dam 1 is in good

operational shape . We're getting ready to let the stage 2

contract . By this time next year we ought to be in great shape with

a completion date scheduled for around September 1982. It has been

a good project and it's been a good training vehicle in contract

management and administration for the engineers of this District .

The capabilities of the people in this District are much greater now

than they were three years ago when we bid this project .

Q : Last year you mentioned the utility of the nine-foot channel in the

event of mobilization . What's the District's role in mobilization

planning?

72
A : Mobilization planning has been getting a lot of visibility . We've

had Mobex '78 and now Mobex '80. We tried to get out front in

mobilization planning and we conducted the workshop on mobilization

planning for NCD . I increased the manpower in that area from one to

four . I put a lieutenant into the function, so we were getting

green suit visibility .

Our mobilization plan has been completed and published . When we get

the OCE-NCD plan, we'll adjust our plan to be sure that we are in

sync . We have identified many things and lessons learned in Mobex

'80 .

Also, we have identified in-house a lot of things that we want to do

to improve the operation of the nine-foot channel in case of

mobilization . Basically, I felt that the security of the locks and

dams could be improved . Maybe resiting of security fences . Maybe

removing a tree here and there . Maybe some better lighting or some

TV monitoring cameras . Then in the event of potential sabotage, we

would have better security . Knowing that no system would be

foolproof though, we have to analyze what would happen if a saboteur

got into one of the locks and dams . Probably the weak link would be

the miter gates, so we did an interchangeability study on miter

gates . We knew the dimensions of all miter gates and we could

change the gate at one location to another location . In our miter

gate interchangeability study, we coordinated with the Division and

73
we are looking at interchangeability Division-wide . We are looking

at some spare miter gates . We're looking at a barge loading and

unloading facility up and down from each lock and dam, because if

something happened to your locking capability and you had a barge

loading and unloading site, that would give you two advantages .

You would have the capability to bring in your rock and construction

material to do repairs, or you could do a portage operation .

We are trying to make improvements between Mobex '80 and '82, so

that when Mobex '82 does come down we can say, "Hey, here are the

things we've done, month by month, in the last two years . You can't

wait until the mobilization exercises and try to do them during that

30-day exercise . You've got to be continually working on mobilization capability .

Q : Still the best job in the world?

A : Oh, no doubt the District Engineer position is the best job in the

world . No place in the Army where you have the autonomy, where you

have the freedom of running an organization, where you have the

organization that has the capability to do the planning, to do the

engineering, to do the building . We're self-contained at the

District level . And to manage an organization with a $60-million

budget and 850 people doing important, vital work for the nation and

helping the people in the region, protecting them from floods, this

7 4
is rewarding . It is obviously the best job I've had . Probably the

only disadvantage of the job is that it is only three years long,

and I don't think the Army will have another job that is so great to

put me in after this one is finished .

Q : It's not really autonomous, is it?

A : Amazingly, if you read the laws, most of the decisions are the

District Engineer's decisions . Obviously, no job is ever such that

you don't have a boss . But I think that probably within the Army

system, or the federal government system, the District Engineer more

fully runs his organization than any- other boss I've seen . Even

with controversy, I don't know of a single incident in two years

where someone came in with the role of the Monday morning

quarterback and criticized a decision, a judgment, or an action .

Most people in the Corps system support the District Engineer and

most of them are there to help . I think the Corps is a very healthy

organization . We don't have people running around in Washington or

other places second-guessing the District Engineer or making him

change his decision or firing him . So I would say it is a damn good

job .

Q : Anything else I should ask you this morning?

A: I'm trying to think of the different subject areas we could run

through . We've talked about the most important things : the

7 5
mission, people, money, the future, the past . I guess we could

close by saying that the District continues to be healthy and well,

and that it continues to become leaner with the personnel cuts, but

performs better . But I guess I have a certain fear that there's no

more fat in the system .

That if we keep cutting, we're cutting muscle now . I continue to be

concerned that we in the Corps grow with the times and that we

continue to adjust our mission to the needs of the people . I would

hope that we would continue to be innovative and that we would look

for our new mission that we can help people with and not wait until

the problems are so large that we don't have time to adequately

solve them .

But after two years I regret that I didn't have a long-range plan

earlier, so that I could have started quicker on some things .

Ultimately you begin to have fears that you are running out of time

to accomplish what you want to accomplish . But you hope sincerely

that your contribution will be lasting and important .
Fourth Interview

30 March 1982

Q : Colonel Badger, last summer you identified the District's future as

tied to the Red River Study and GREAT I . Now, how much control does

the District have over its own future?

A : Well, when I first took over the job, I thought we had quite a bit,

but as we developed both the GREAT I Implementation Study and the

Red River Strategy Report, we faced the problem of having to get

both of those reports through the system .

The GREAT study was endorsed by the Division and went before the

Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors and is pretty well

intact . It lays out what we would like to do in the St . Paul

District on the Mississippi River for the next 20 years . I think

that the GREAT document represents half of the master plan to where

we are going .

The Red River Strategy Report is a little different in that the

Division hasn't bought off on it . It contains some innovative

approaches and we are coordinating with the Division now.

Obviously, Division is improving our approach in some ways, but we

may be getting away from the original conception of the District,

7 7
local, and state people . I am hoping that what the local people see

after we have done our modifications is not something that makes

them unhappy because it appears to be diluted .

But I have been working during all of my three years on those

reports and still they are moving slowly . Basically I wanted

strategy reports covering both of my large river basins which would

set further directions for the St . Paul District .

Q : What about the DL, of course, who comes and goes . The District

stays . Given the length of your tour of duty, what kind of imprint

do you leave on a District?

A : Well, in the military sense of assignments, three years is a long

time . I thought that I could do those things that I wanted in three

years .

But you have external influences, such as the reorganization where

we lost the Lake Superior part of our area, and a major

reorganization where we went to an independent Planning Division .

Space and money cuts and other external requirements make heavy

demands on your time . Just running the organization and handling

the external forces subtracts from the efforts to leave the desired

imprint .

7 8
I have accomplished most of my personal objectives with the

exception of that computer area .

I felt that a fourth year would have been good . General Smith asked

me to stay a fourth year. It went all the way to General Bratton in

a District Engineer slating session, and the Chief of Engineers

faced a decision that could have been precedent-setting : to have a

four-year DE .

There are many prominent reasons why it would be good to have a

four-year DE, and the obvious reason is for continuity . But the

greatest disadvantage is that the management and leadership skills

you develop as a DE are skills the Army needs in other key jobs .

But the decision was made not to set the precedent on a four-year

DE, so I will serve my three years and move on to a new job .

Q : You wanted to stay a fourth year?

A : I said yes when asked . The reason I said yes was that I wanted to

do more work with the District . I wanted to get my projects farther

through the system . I thought I could contribute more and,

personally, I didn't think the Army had another job for me that had

the pleasure, the scope, and the significance of being DE . I think

I was wrong . The job I'm going to, Director of Engineering and

Housing at the Military Academy, appears to be just as challenging .

7 9
effective 4 April 1982 . The concept of having a full Planning

Division within a District that did not have one before has taken

root and is accepted .

We are giving the planning function more visibility now than it's

had before . We have streamlined the Engineering Division and I feel

that we are working better under the project manager system than we

did before .

The new organizations will be in place in April and by the time I

leave in June we will have them debugged and working .

You wrote to Colonel Art Williams last fall that long-range planning

is one of the niceties the District won't get unless it is demanded

by the DE .

80
But I'm wondering, you know, how much long-range planning you are

able to do given all these things that do affect your own system,

plus the political context in which we work . . . ?

A : Well, we still haven't done well with the 20-year plan . However, we

are going to brief the Division Engineer in April, during the

command inspection, on our long-range plan .

What we've done is put the projects that we know about in a time

scale envelope and projected how much money would be required each

year to develop those projects . Then we totaled the envelopes to

see if we had an average budget in the out-years that would support

the people . Under the resources analysis table, the RAT, you take

the money coming in and you justify your spaces and manpower '

distribution .

Obviously, you have to have a level workload and obviously a long

time to get projects through the system -- planned, engineered, and

built -- you are talking in the 20-year time frame .

So we are trying to analyze the 20-year period and attempt to

determine what truisms there are, what rules of thumb . It is

obvious to me that if I don't reach the four-to-five million dollar

level of General Investigation funding, then I cannot support the

planning effort, and I will not have projects in the pipeline that

will keep the District healthy in the future .

8 1
This may sound like survivalism, and in a way it is . I look at the

District as a national asset, especially during a time of

mobilization . If the District isn't healthy, then it is not going

to be effective in a mobilization .

If we can keep the civil works program performing flood control for

the people, and by doing that, we receive monies that keep us

trained as an organization, then we will be a national asset that is

ready if we have to mobilize and support our armed forces .

Q : When the administration changed in 1981, did the framework of your

planning change? Or has it changed since? Have your options been

changed or reduced or expanded?

A : Well, when you change from one administration to another, the new

administration seems obliged to make a change, distinguish itself

from the last administration . So regardless, there is always a

change . Change always creates delays and it usually slows down the

process .

I see a real marked streak of conservativism in our new policies .

People within the system are more concerned about the DEs speaking

out . We have been cautioned more and more to discipline our

comments . We have been cautioned more and more to play as a

team.

82
Q : By whom?

A : By the system . I think that, traditionally, people feel that the

Reagan administration is in our chain of command, that we as good soldiers

have to support it, that we are speaking the administration's

position more often and more forcefully than ever before .

And I think that the Corps system has aligned itself to be

supportive of the new administration, and I find that throughout the

system there is conservativism.

Q : But did your options change much? I mean, your operational options?

A : Well, yes . Because when you have more discipline, you have less

freedom, you have less innovation, you have less ability to do your

thing . A conservative approach makes people more inclined to go to

higher headquarters .

So decision making shifts from the lower levels up the chain of

command . There is more centralism . There are more people in higher

places who want to control what is going on .

Probably this is realistic inasmuch as there is less money and there

are fewer spaces, and commanders feel every decision that affects

money and spaces has to be made at the highest level .

But there is a definite shift in my three years from a decentralized

operation toward a more centralized operation .

83
Q : That is very significant for the Corps of Engineers, which has been

accustomed to operating on amore decentralized basis .

A : Obviously . I believe the decentralized mode is best, but I can't

control the shift and the people who run the Corps can't control it

either . I guess my intuitive feeling is that what made the Corps

great was a decentralized organization with all the capability at

the District level and many of the decisions made at that level . I

own mind that we are going to be as

to shift to a centralized decision-making

of the decisions are made by the District

am not as positive in my

effective if we continue

mode and fewer and fewer

Engineer .

Q : Is there a certain paradox involved in the increasing centralization

of decisions in order to increasingly decentralize government?

A : I think that the administration wants to be sure that we are

speaking with a common tongue and that when they say

decentralization, they want to be sure that the central issues

the central policies are those of the new administration .

and

I think that people are trying to transfer things back at the state

level, but effectively within the course of work . I don't see the

shift of the federalism that people talk about back to the states .

I still see a centralized position throughout the Corps of

Engineers .

84
Q : Were you caught by surprise or were you surprised by the magnitude

of the change from one administration to the other?

A : I didn't think the changes would be so drastic . I didn't think they

would happen so quickly . The essence of the new policy arrived very

quickly and the comments about what we could say and could not say

about cost sharing were very exact . The comments about the District

Engineers being more disciplined in what they say were very graphic .

Q : From Mr. Gianelli's office?

A : I would think from the President to Mr . Gianelli through the

Corps . And I guess there was a credibility among us at the bottom

that what was being said was true and that we had to toe the line

quickly . Maybe this is the strength of the Corps' system, that you

have the military in charge and when policies do change they change

quickly and we listen well . Because usually you would expect that

in a large organization it would take months and years to get policy

from top to bottom .

Q : Yes . When you told me last summer that much of what needs to be

changed in the planning procedure was not in your province to

affect, what did you have in mind?

A : Well, General Heiberg did his study at the OCE civil works level and

made a list of ways he was going to revitalize the planning

85
process . The only part of that list at my level was to reorganize

into a Planning Division, which I am doing next week . The other

part was that my Division Engineer said that he wanted me to be the

District's chief planner, so he is saying that the District Engineer

should be more directly involved in the planning process . Let your

deputies run the day-to-day business of money, spaces, and

personnel .

I have done this . My people have reacted a little bit because they

see me spending more time in planning and engineering . They feel

that maybe I'm not as concerned about the other functional areas

that have been delegated to the deputy, so they feel that I am not

as open to them and that I'm not communicating downward as well as I

used to . But when the General directs you to become more involved,

then you become more involved .

I moved the Chief of the Planning Division next door to me on the

right, and I have the Chief of the Engineering Division on the left,

and I am very closely involved with both . I am playing a much

larger role, much more of my time is spent in planning than ever

before .

Q : What kind of hopes do you have for this Planning Division?

A : I think that it will go well from the viewpoint that every part of

it has been scrutinized in the reorganization, so probably once it's

86
formed it will be healthy, it will be streamlined, it will be

understood by our own people .

The problem I see is if you cannot maintain the General

Investigation funding to support it, the Planning Division will

shrink and that's going to hurt us more than anything else . I would

say the greatest thing that anyone could do for me to improve

planning is to give me a benchmark level of GI funding . If I am

sure I can keep the GI funding going, well, then I can get a

consistent level of effort in the Planning Division, and then year

in and year out we can more consistently pump out well planned

projects . The key is to keep the GI funds flowing so that the

Planning Division can afford to work .

Q : And that's something we are really not certain about, can't be

certain about now.

A : Well, it seems like every year there is more and more GI funding cut

out and that's the life blood . And as GI funding goes for planning,

so goes the future of civil works . Because if the new projects are

not coming out of the pipeline, then the organization will continue

in a declining mode, losing spaces, dollars, people, and capability .

Q : You have expressed some frustration regarding trying to move

projects through the system . How have things been this year?
A : Well, with the conservative approach on getting things done, going

to the congressman or to the senator and speaking your mind has

almost ceased . Now we work fully within the system . So the system

is more responsive at the management levels to getting projects

through, but it is still ineffective and inefficient in the

technical channels .

I feel that if you have a project and you keep it in the management

channels, it moves . But once the technocrats get a hold of it, it

slows down . This hasn't changed .

Q : That's the same .

A : Yes, after three years I guess I feel that the technocrats probably

won't change and my greatest fear is that they will sink us with

good intentions, never knowing that they are our problem .

Q : That's here in this building?

A : Yes . And I have a feeling that no matter who is in management, we

leave the technocrats to do the revisions, the reviews, and the

policy setting . They won't police themselves . None of the efforts

to improve the planning process I've seen have reached down to the

technocrat level .

Now, I understand that the Chief of Engineering Division in civil

works has an engineer excellence group looking at this problem .

88
But I did not realize, when I took over, the significance of the

what that does moneywise, manpowerwise, and

my projects . It is very frustrating for a

live with milestones, push projects hard, and

the District and clear the Division, find that

pushing as hard in the Office of the Chief of

Engineers . A District Engineer can push it, but it is very

difficult to motivate people in Washington from St . Paul .

internal reviews and

project timewise, to

District Engineer to

then once they clear

there is not someone

So I guess my greatest frustration is with the technical reviews,

the redundancies within the system, and with the parochial points of

view, which are well meaning, but each one of them delays the

project . They delay by sending it back and you keep changing .and

updating .

So it's a constant review and reiteration when the crucial thing

about the project, once you have it at a C+ level, is getting it

through the system . We worry too much about getting it at A+ level

and then it gets so old it doesn't get through the system . I'd like

to see more attention on getting projects through the system and

less on raising project quality from the C+ to the A+ .

Q : So, if you were talking to an incoming District Engineer about where

the obstacles were to move projects, you would say they were in our

system and in the technical review of our system .

89
A : Yes . I initially thought the problem was all the agencies I had to

deal with outside the Corps . I thought that was 80 percent of the

problem . I guess after three years I would have to turn that around

and say I think it's 80 percent us . I have a feeling that our

biggest problem is ourselves and I hope people in the hierarchy

recognize this and are working like mad to change the system .

I see evidence that we have improved . We sent a policy letter up on

our Burlington project four years ago and the answer was never

received . General Harris, the previous Division Engineer, wasn't

able to get an answer . We sent a letter from General Smith, the new

Division Engineer, on Burlington -- now renamed Lake Darling -- and

we got an answer in four months. But I think we should be striving

for three to four weeks turnaround on policy letters and we are not

getting it .

Q : Do you talk to other DEs who have the same kinds of problems?

A : Well, one of the peculiarities of the system is I don't see many

other DEs outside this Division .

Q : I was going to ask you that .

A : And I don't get a chance for cross fertilization . We had a planning

conference and we had all the DEs together and that was quite

good . But the mechanism for exchanging lessons learned and good

90
ideas doesn't seem to be there, and so we each work at trying to get

our work done individually and we are each left to our own

devices . `We do get together with other DEs within the Division,

which is helpful . General Smith has worked hard to get good ideas

exchanged between Districts within the Division .

I think that spending more time with other District Engineers and

exchanging success stories might help all of us have more

successes . But there is a lot of cost and wasted motion in getting

all the District Engineers together.

Q : I remember once you suggested that the Epgineer IG teams could be a

good vehicle for transmitting innovation from District to

District . How has that worked out?

A : Yes . Well, General Smith sent my recommendation to the Engineer

IG . Basically, I recommended that the IG collect ideas from

Districts inspected and present a "good ideas" briefing to other

Districts . I think that the IG borrowed some of the tone and

nuances from that recommendation, although he may have watered it

down a bit .

But I be] ieve the proof of the pudding wil l be when the. IG team

comes around to St . Paul next year, whether he is, in fact,

exchanging good ideas from one District to the next District .

91
I spoke informally to the Engineer IG one day and recommended that

we detail the Deputy District Engineer one week a year with the IG

team inspecting another District . . The advantage is that then he

could relate how he is doing things in his District . And he could

bring back the good things he saw from that inspection .

So, by giving up your Deputy one week a year, you could have cross

fertilization among Districts . The IG seemed to like that idea .

I'm not sure if that will ever be incorporated, but we have to

continue to work on cross fertilization .

Q : Are you satisfied with what you have done to try to move projects

through?

A : No, I don't think I am satisfied .

I feel that we have been effective enough to keep my District

healthy . There is much more work . There are many good projects in

the St . Paul District that we could have in the system and we could

have under way .

However, there is a built-in cap though and that's the manpower you

have and the money you get, and the systems are not going to let you

grow in size, even though the work is there.
They are going to let you work at a constant level or a shrinking

level, and many projects out there that need to be done are put on

hold .

A lot of times when we see that it takes a long time to get a

project through, part of the fault is that you are out selecting

simple and easily put together projects . So we have a normal

sorting system, based on our capabilities, resources, and

manpower . My concern is that some good projects are piecemealed and

only parts of the projects will be completed . I don't like

patchwork solutions .

Q : You want to talk politics a little?

A- : If I have to .

Q : This is not that kind of environment .

But I wonder if you would -- well, you already have, actually, to an

extent -- compare the Carter and Reagan administrations for me

relative to how they affected your operations?

A : Well, I think the politics now is in the cost-sharing and money . We

are in an era where economics is the driving force . You find the

District Engineer in a position of talking about three levels of

cost sharing . The first, applied to many old projects, was used for

93
years and basically endorsed by Congress . We call them the old

ABC's of cost-sharing .

Then you find yourself talking about the Carter administration's

cost-sharing, which was a 75-25 percent split, the 25 percent being

local and state combined .

Then you find yourself talking about the new Reagan cost-sharing and

the new cost-sharing is tentatively in the 70-30 range, but really

hasn't been defined well . District Engineers have been cautioned

not to be too agressive in discussing the current cost-sharing .

That's being discussed basically by the Assistant Secretary of the

Army for Civil Works office and staff .

So you go out to people and you talk projects and you try to explain

the setting of three types of cost-sharing and you are very cautious

that you are being supportive of the new administration's costsharing plan, which is not yet totally formulated .

Obviously, cost-sharing - is mandated in the legislative language when

the project is approved . But we are not having projects approved by

any new Water Resources bills .

When you talk in the political sense, I think that probably the

thing that is most sensitive is cost-sharing. Along with cost94
sharing, the other thing that is sensitive is stating capability on

projects . The administration is very concerned about capability,

because they don't want separate compartmentalized capabilities

quoted that haven't been formulated by the total organization .

When you have a budget than is approved by the administration, each

project will be tagged with a stated capability. You have to be

very careful not to make statements to a congressman saying, "Oh, we

have a capability twice that much or three times that much," then

have that congressman go through the back door and force more money

into that project .

When we support that budget, we support the stated capability. Now,

that stated capability is controlled at a higher level than ever

before, so you have to be Very careful in stating capabilities .

I have told my project manalgers that any time they are asked for

capabilities, they say, "Pl'ease ask in writing," and we very

carefully staff the capability because we want to be supportive of

the administration .

Q : Are there significant differences between how Mr . Blumenfeld

operated and how Mr . Gianelli operates?

A : Well, it's hard for me, from the St . Paul hinterland, to evaluate

the management of new people . It is obvious that Mr . Gianelli had

9 5
much greater background and experience in water resources . It is

obvious that he is better connected politically with the

administration and it is obvious that he is a very strong, forceful

man who knows what he is doing .

I think probably, as a manager engineer, we've got a more powerful,

strong manager than we ever had .

I think the things he is doing really show that he'.s very capable .

I believe that he's probably had a greater influence on the system

and District Engineers than any other Assistant Secretary of ArmyCivil Works .

But that's just an impression . I'm a long way from the flag pole .

Q : Well, I understood that when I asked the question . But you know,

I'm curious about the impact it has on you out here .

During the flood season President Reagan went to Indiana and made a

fuss over volunteers filling sandbags . Did this become a major

topic of discussion in your office?

A : No, it didn't . I don't think I ever heard anyone mention the

President being there . It had no real impact . I guess any time the

President stops by an emergency or civil works project, the Corps

9 6
should feel it has received some visibility . But it was not

discussed and it was just business as usual .

Q : This was a strange kind of visibility and it got some notice here,

because it wasn't the Corps of Engineers or FEMA (Federal Emergency

Management Agency) that he had gone out thereto praise . It was

neighbors filling sandbags and it disturbed some people, you know,

in this office.

A : Well, I think President Reagan obviously feels his strength is with

the people and I am not surprised that he would take that

approach . I believe the District Engineer and the Division Engineer

received a lot of publicity about the good work that we did in

Indiana, and major floods highlight the need for additional wellplanned, well-engineered water resource management projects . So

when you have a flood that gets national attention, that really

highlights the need for an agency like the Corps to do the longrange planning .

Q : We talked a lot about management in our previous discussions and I

want to try to catch up on a few issues .

What have been your greatest challenges and problems since the last

time we talked?

97
A : We spend more time and more effort on the budget and the data for

the budget than ever before . We were five months in getting the

1982 budget . We were operating by rule of thumb at the same rate as

last year, but really we didn't know what our budget was going to be

until five-twelfths of the year were out . Parts of the budget were

cut almost on a weekly basis, and this has been true of the 1988

budget . We constantly have changes and turmoil with the budget, and

this causes a great deal of pressure on the organization .

The project managers are frustrated because they spend so much time

on writing up budget estimates and justifications . The branch and

division chiefs are frustrated because they always have to cut, add

or subtract budget amounts . . . .

Q : A constant state of flux .

A : It created a difficult management situation .

Finally the 1982 budget was approved and we had our allocations . As

soon as that came in, the personnel space procedure changed .

Before, I had a personnel space ceiling for full-time permanent

appointments . At the end of the year I had to get under that

number. It did not matter how much overhire we had during the

year . I had a glide path that I could stay on by attrition to

handle the space cut and overhire . No problem .

98
Well, five-twelfths into the year they changed the system . Now we

use a full-time equivalency system, an accumulative procedure of

man-years effort . Since I've been overhired most of the years, I'm

going to go over in man-years effort . I've got,the money to pay the

people and I've got the work to be done, but now we've got this

full-time equivalency problem to handle .

Every year there are different restrictions from a management point

of view, and one year you will get your system organized, and the

next year you have a continually changing system of management . My

first year I had a space problem, but no money problems . Next year

I had money problems, - but no space problems . This year, I'm having

both .

And so these are the kinds of ills of a declining organization that

has continued management problems . Hopefully, the next iteration of

cuts will be done at some other level in the Corps and maybe we can

leave our organization alone for a year and get some stability .

Q : There are other areas . . . ?

A : Another challenge was to continue the institutionalizing of

management innovations because I wanted to clean things up for the

new District Engineer .

9 9
y

p

of state books, and

letters on what we were doing within the District ; taking him to see

the congressmen and senators ; taking him to International Joint

Board meetings ; and having him visit the District for several days

where I introduced him to all the governors, all the key federal

agencies, and the people within the District .

The last few months, I have been focusing on an orderly transition .

But if you ask me about other challenges, I have one problem that I

haven't solved and it's a big one . It's computers . We can talk

about that now or later .

Q : Now is good if it's all right .

A : Well, for three years I have been working to improve office

automation, word processing, and the computer operation . We had an

old piece of hardware and it took me the first year to get rid of it

and to lease a new minicomputer -- Harris 500 .

Then I spent the next year trying to get the software up on it .

This last year, I found that we are just not managing computers

well . I don't know if it was the computer technology, the engineer,

or the District, but the computers cost more, gave us less of the

data that we wanted, and were less supportive of me than I ever

100
thought possible. I am going away with a gnawing feeling that I was

not solving the problem . . . .

We depend so much on the computer, we've got it doing so many things

for us, but it',s not fine-tuned and we are not properly managing

this great capability . I don't really see great talent in the Corps

in the computer management area and I feel bad about saying this .

We have a lot of technicians who run computers, but it doesn't

appear that we have a lot of managers managing the computer system .

I have a feeling that one of my goals of being able' to provide the

St . Paul District wit-h the best computer.k support in the Army will

not be met . Now, it's improved, but we are not there . And I have

the feeling that it will take the new DE another two years to get

there .

Q : How did you come to this realization?

A : Well, when people talk to you, they always surface one item that

they are most frustrated with. The one item that continually showed

up has been computer support .

We have a system where project managers charge obligations and

expenditures to their projects . There is always a lagtime . The

computer doesn't have the latest charges, or there are mischarges .

Or we get extremely high overhead charges . Or you use a computer
and you think you are getting a $1,500 job and it comes back

$20,000.

We have gone to an extensive program now of trying to get cost

estimates so that people who want to use a computer will know how

much they are going to be charged to use that computer . Now they

can make a management decision whether or not using the computer is 

cost-effective .

This has been a significant problem in my District and I have some

good people working on solving it, but we haven't solved it yet . I

have a sneaking suspicion that there are a lot of people in the

Corps who are having computer management problems because the

problems appear inherent in the system .

Q : You can't establish a sophisticated system to take care of all your

perceived needs in a short period of time . Maybe you haven't waite

long enough .

A : Well, when I visited someone within Military Programs of OCE three

years ago, they had two management information systems and neither

of them was humming well . Of course, the promise was, "Well, the

next generation is going to be better ."
computers . I recently visited West Point's admissions office and

they have .a computer application for all the people trying to get

into West Point . They say they couldn't do their jobs without it

and they seem to get excellent day-to-day support from it .

With my computer operation, certain applications are very

supportive, others just do not seem to get there. My deputy is

taking almost one-third of his time to manage the computer and

office automation . We have gone to word processor clusters for the

District and they are working well .

We have installed smart terminals at each lock and dam to compile

shipping information . We have probably 70 terminals within the

District so a lot of people get into the computer.

I think the weak area, though, is the management of the funding and

the management of the computer use . We haven't got a handle on

that . We are working hard on it . We are going to go out Army-wide

and try to hire a "manager" first and a computer-knowledgeable

person second .

Q : There's been a lot of snow this winter . And I guess it isn't

melting yet, is it?

103
A : We set the all-time accumulative snow record for Minnesota of 95

inches . We received 36 inches of snow in one week . We had a very

fortunate thawing in early March . Then we had a number of freeze

thaw cycles and most the snow now is gone without flooding .

Q : So there is no flood problem?

A : Well, the flood potential in mid-January was great . If it had kept

snowing and we had a cold winter up until April and then a quick

thaw, we would have faced probable flooding . But March has been

good to us . We haven't had much additional snow and the thaw cycles

have been ideal .

It looks like, if I had to give a forecast, that we could finish my

tour without a major flood . In the Red River, we were having floods

9 out of 14 years, so the percentages were against me going 3 years

without a major flood .

I was expecting a major flood, and we had a flood emergency exercise

CPX where we had 80 people from the states and from my office and we

practiced with the data used in the 1979 "flood of the century ."

But it looks like, even though we are ready and capable of going out

and doing a superb job of fighting the floods, that we are not going

to have the chance to demonstrate how well we could have done .

104
Q : Which is all right .

A: Oh, yes . Obviously, the best of all worlds is to be well-trained

and ready to` take care of the problem and not have to take care of

it .

Q : When did you have that exercise?

Q : At whose initiative' did you have this?'

A : We had it in January and we had people from the Division and other

Districts, the states, all my' area engineers, and my military . We

practiced laying'sandbags . We practiced with the Crisafulli

pumps . We had briefings . We ran our operations centers . We used

our communications . We brought in the state people we were going to

deal with in emergencies . 'Everybody got to know each other eyeball

to eyeball . It was just a healthy exchange and review of our

emergency planning and plans .

And I think that the District is better able to cope with major

floods than ever before .

A : Well, I guess my initiative for the CPX -- General Smith took the

initiative to have exercises for mobilization planning and now

General Smith has implemented this flood emergency CPX annually for

all Districts in NCD .

10 5
ready ."

106

A : The National Weather Service has a river forecasting section and we

had a number of meetings with those people so that when they give

forecasts, we would be a verifier and speak the same language and

not be at odds . Now anytime there is a press release, we coordinate

and we have not had dissension between the Weather Service and the

Corps -- a very healthy first step .

The second thing is, I spoke at the Minnesota Emergency Managers

meeting in February and we updated them on our capability and what

we had done .

Governor Allen I . Olson, from North Dakota, wrote me a letter and

said, "I am concerned and I want you to do these things to get

ready ." We have met with North Dakota, we have prepositioned our

sandbags and pumps and we wrote back a letter to Governor Olson

saying, "Sir,, we are sitting on the edge of our seats . We are

I think probably we have a higher level of consciousness of

emergency actions than we ever had before and we have the right

people in management, in the executive office, looking at the
emergency problem . It is not buried within the organization . So

emergency management and flooding are getting good visibility and

that keeps~Emergency Management ready to operate .

Q : Ready . I remember during the height of the snow we listened to

Prairie Home Companion and Garrison Keillor said he'd go to visit

his parents, but he didn't know how to start the pile of snow that

his car was in .

A : Well, my driveway -- I have an Oldsmobile -- you could not see the

Oldsmobile in the driveway until you got to the end of the driveway

and you looked down it . I had about six-foot banks of snow on

either side of the drive . But it is all gone now.

Q : Good . Last year you told me about a case of travel fraud, travel

voucher fraud . Has there been a continuing or lingering problem of

effects of this or is it pretty much wrapped up?

A: Well, I think last year we talked about the impact of my taking

vigorous actions to correct the fraud problem within the work

force . I would say the travel fraud problem was isolated in a very

small group who worked on dredging and not the bulk of the District,

so there was no morale impact other than the group that was

involved .
focus . Through the system of review and corrective actions, we have

the total number of cases down to where we are finishing up . We

gave out quite a few suspensions . We have collected quite a bit of

money back . I hope to have this completely wrapped up by the change

of command .

Q : Are you satisfied with how you handled it?

A : Well, I tried to use the federal court system and that was

unresponsive and then the U .S . attorney gave me the cases back to

handle administratively. Now that we are handling them

administratively within the Corps, they are being done much more

systematically and there is consistent punishment dealt out for the

violations .

I wrote an open letter to the employees explaining our actions . The

problem is behind us, but it got a lot of visibility throughout the

Corps . It's a very difficult type of problem to handle and I'm

afraid the judicial system doesn't consider it as important as a lot

of other cases brought before it .

I think probably the greatest lesson learned is don't let it happen

and if it does, we have to handle it ourselves .

108
Q : Your management memo, that you wrote last spring, 30 April 1981,

emphasized a flexible and informal management system . Are you

satisfied with that characterization?

A : Well, I worked hard at creating a decentralized management style and

in using the corporate body . My management style was designed to

get our top managers directly involved in the decision-making. If

something is new and innovative, you test the bright young minds you

have, you war game it, and get the good ideas put together so that

any strategies you come up with are well thought out . I think we in

St . Paul do that very well and .I am very comfortable with how the

District runs .

I realize that every District Engineer has a different management

style and that each District will have to adjust to the DE's

style . My style is spelled out pretty well in memos and letters. A

new District Engineer coming in can understand how I ran the

District and have the option of continuing the same way or moving

from that point .

So I think the corporate body is working well . Obviou-s,ly .I have

grown, hopefully, matured . Looking at my management style over

three years, I find that it is dictated a little,bit by my bos.s',s

management style, and by what the administration wants to do in

centralization . It is influenced also by the budget; and how quickly

we have to react to budget cuts and restrictions .

109
your management your way, but still you have the freedom of 80

percent of it . The beauty of it, the system, is that they do let

you do your thing and they do let you do it your way and I am very

appreciative of that fact .

Q : Have you discussed this with your successor?

A : Not management style, per se . Recently I have had devised a

management supervisor test that was given to ten supervisors and

they rated me in my management style and their supervisors rated

them . So we as supervisors are evaluating the corporate body

concept .

I recently took a personal profile test to determine what kind of

manager I am and I found I fit the "I" category, which means I try

to influence people . I fit next in the dominance category, so I

kind of dominate people, but to a lesser degree than the

influencing .

Many military people maybe would fit higher in the dominance and

less in the "I," so I guess my personal traits support the corporate

body and decentralization approach . I will discuss my style with my

successor to give him a better understanding of where we are

management wise in the District .
Q : The next couple of years will be very interesting . You are still

continuing with cross training?

A : Yes, cross training is paying great dividends . We have changed

attitudes within the District . Before people were skeptical but now

all of the managers want cross training because they see advantages

in their growth, and the training they get as executives . I think

cross training is something that has taken root in St . Paul and will

be here for a long time because our civilians will demand it .

We have a group of civilians who are much broader gauged than

before, much more capable . As the lack of mobility problem in the

Corps worsens, people cannot afford to change from District to

Division to OCE for a grade promotion . More and more of the

promotions in the District will be from within, and we are going to

have to have a better pool of engineer managers to promote from .

So I think this executive development program has a very positive

long-term benefit to the Corps and the next three or four District

Engineers will see that positive long-term benefit .

Q : You have been holding that pretty much at the branch chief level?

A : No, we have gone down to the section chief level . Each level sees

what is going on at the next higher level and they want to buy in .
taking over in St . Paul District .

Q : You just expanded from the branch chiefs then this year, didn't you?

A : Yes, the young people see it, and I have had people come in saying

"Hey, I've got to broaden my base ." So it is throughout the

organization now and it is very pleasing because I think it is

healthy and it is something I feel that I started and I feel like a

father .

Q

:

So it is a pleasure to me to see this executive development taking

place .

You are making the transition now, out of the job, and you are

helping someone make the transition into the job. And you talked

about it a little bit this morning . What are the important things

you have to say to your successor?

A : Well, the first thing is you have to find out whether he wants,a

transition . There are some people who don't want an overlap . They

say. "You walked out . I am a manager . I .a m a commander . I've been

through the systems . I have the experience and I will do it

myself ."
experience and a lot of knowledge and I want to know as much as I

can ."

So the first thing you have to do is find out if your replacement

wants to buy in and how deeply he wants to buy in .

Recently when I talked to Colonel-Ed Rapp, b asked, "Am I

overkilling you with visits and meetings and so forth?" And Colonel

Rapp said, "No, I love it . Keep it coming ."

So he's already read the history, the state bpoks, the congressional

data for the testifying officer .

We wrote him a letter that spelled out what each staff area did

within the District . I had each of my branch and division chiefs

put together one-paragraph for the new DE and I put an entry

paragraph on it and a closing one and mailed it to him .

He is going to go to the International Joint Commission meetings

with me . He is going to go around and meet senators and congressmen

with me .

He is going to take the contract course and the DE course before he

shows up in St . Paul . So I take pleasure in thinking that Colonel
Rapp is going to be a well-informed replacement when he takes over

on 7 June .

Q : How does this compare with the transition you made into the job?

A : I was treated well . General Gay was the District Engineer when I

took over . I went out and visited . We visited the governors and I

suppose much of my transition plan is predicated on what General Gay

did for me . General Gay's management style was close to mine in

certain areas and I tried to, the first year, not drastically

deviate from what he was doing .

I guess one of the advantages in transitions is that most of the old

DEs are good folks and most of the new DEs are good people, so that

you are not taking over an organization that is down and out .

You are taking over an organization that is functioning and

hopefully the transition is smooth . With minor fine tuning, the new

DE is off and running.

Transition is hard on the civilian employees . They look at it as,

well, another District Engineer that they will have to educate .

Q : Some new idiosyncrasies come into the office .
A : That's right, and so they are very eager to see this new person and

they look him over very closely and he's slowly met by a number of

our civilians and they have formed opinions . So the transition is

already underway . The information exchange is already underway.

What we want to do is build the confidence and the trust so that

when he takes over, he will take over a good District and be off and

running .

A : Well, you find that you have got a few, maybe one-third of your

congressional delegation, who really enter the Corps net. . Some

congressmen have other interests and they do social programs or

concentrate on their own different committees . So you find one or

two or three in each state who have as their thing the Corps and our

projects . So those are the key contact elements .

Q : So you can help the new DE identify those .

Q : Who are the essential contacts in the community? What are the

contacts the new DE has to make or that ease his job the most?

A: Yes, then you have certain mayors and sponsors of certain projects

that are in the right stage of development . That mayor, those

sponsors, play key parts . So there are about a half dozen key

mayors and sponsors .
Q :, What do you mean by sponsors?

A : Well, every project has to have .a sponsor . We don't go out and

promote Corps projects . There is a locally recognized need for a

project and the local sponsor, which could be the county or

watershed district or the city, has gone to their congressional

representatives, which results in legislative language that says,

"Corps, come down and do a study and here is the money ." So if you

don't have an active sponsor who will sign the letter of agreement

and pay local shares, you don't have a project .

First, you have to have a viable sponsor . Second, you have to have

state support . If the governor doesn't support the project, you

don't have a project .

The third thing you have to have is a benefit-cost ratio greater

than one .

So the general rule of thumb or the three things any project needs

are : an active sponsor ; state support with the governor backing

you, and a benefit-cost ratio greater than one .

Other important people would be agency heads, the head of the

National Weather Service, and the head of the Soil Conservation

Service . Others are the Fish and Wildlife regional heads and area

people . Important agencies for me are the Minnesota Pollution
Control Agency, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, the

Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, and the Water Commission

for the State of North Dakota .

Each state is wired differently . I have wiring diagrams for each

state and I will explain how the Corps interfaces in each state. I

will take the new DE by and introduce him to the shakers and the

movers .

Q : What about environmental groups?

A : They don't seem to be as prominent as thgy used to be . I think the

economy has hurt them inasmuch as I don't think they have the

funding they used to have . I don't see as many environmental

interests and I don't' see as many environmental'actions from

environmental groups as in the past .

Q: Of course, we don't see as many projects as we used to either .

A : Right . And I think that they have tended to feel that they have

helped realign the Corps' thinking .

environmentally sensitive, that we are

that there are other people doing more

after them. I feel maybe we have more

environmental groups than we had before .

They feel that we are more

doing fewer things wrong, and

and worse things, so they are

credibility now with these
to keep relations good with these important people, different

groups?

A : Well, obviously you can't allow the technocrats from your

organizations to have their petty wars and when that happens you

have to quickly meet with their bosses and solve the problem .

You can tell when this is happening by the poison pen letters coming

out of your organization . Some people will be venting their

emotions . I don't allow poison pen letters . I don't allow

emotionalism . The managers have to get together and let the lower

levels know that we have got to work together .

I think that you have to be very careful of their areas of

responsibility and their turf and be sure that you are not

infringing on their areas . There has to be consciousness on their

part of what your areas are .

So there has to be communication between organizations . I made a

conscious effort of improving the relationships with the Wisconsin

Department of Natural Resources, the Minnesota Department of Natural

Resources, the Weather Service, and Fish and Wildlife .

I met with the heads of these organizations and we have slowly
gotten rid of the poison pen letters . We talked more . We tried to

understand each other's problems . And I think that we have achieved

some real-good professional relationships with these other agencies .

And that communication is key to having a healthy program .

Q : The Department of Defense professionals have a tendency to speak in

Pentagonese dialect . Does this mode of expression represent a

problem for potential DEs?

A : Well, that's interesting . With any new job you have a new

vocabulary and I am working on notes for the new District Engineer

by expanding my Colonel Art Williams letter . And in those notes,

the last three or four pages, are listed acronyms or terms that a

civil works District uses that the average Army officer may not be

aware of .

Now, I would think that we in civil works, speaking a civilworksese, could be just as bad as the Pentagonese that a military

officer may speak . Any new DE should quickly learn the language of

the new organization and forget those of the old .

Q : What about the press and the new District Engineer? Are there any

important principles to guide relations with the press?
let a project manager speak openly, in`orde'r not to give any

appearance of holding information back, and to be as candid as

possible . We in St . Paul are very lucky that the press in this area

seems to play fair with us .

We are not misquoted and we are not abused by the press. I- guess my

feeling of skepticism when I took over is now one of optimism .

You just do your job and tell the truth and good press will

follow.

Q : .

What about the new administration in Washington? Are you able to b

as open' with the press as you were before?

A : I think there is a new caution now because, obviously, if the press

misquotes you and the misquote is not supportive of the current

administration, I think you will have to answer for it . When you

have centralized control and a more conservative approach, the press

has to be taken more seriously .` The press may view caution as

cover-up . But I think that the signals are clear . I understand

what the administration policies are so I am able to deal with them

even with''the press . 'The relationship with the press has not been

the problem I envisioned three years ago .

120
Q : How do you feel about leaving?

A : Well, you know, I was almost looking at it as the end of my career

and going into the twilight zone because I believed there wouldn't

be a job that is as good as the one I'm leaving . But the Army and

the Corps were very good to me . It looks like the job at West Point

will be very challenging .

I will have my own flagpole and my own people and my own budget and

there are some new challenges ahead . That has helped soften the

blow of leaving the District .

Another thing that has helped soften the leaving is that I feel that

I have had a good tour and have been able to do some positive things

in moving projects and helping the St . Paul District . I am leaving

a good District with a good incoming DE and I know that St . Paul

will continue on and will do great things .

Q : Here comes the last question every time, right? What should we have

talked about? What didn't I ask you that is important?

A : Mickey, you have a way of doing your homework by going over all your

old interviews . I'd say you are pretty thorough .

The Corps has to worry about where it is going in the future, and I
guess that the bottom line has to be this : can we maintain a base

of engineering knowledge so that in the event we ever have to

mobilize and support our armed forces, we would be a viable

organization?

With the budget problems, space cuts, and the long time required to

plan a project, all meshed together with local interests being able

financially to handle cost-sharing, I am concerned that some

Districts may not be able to remain viable entities

There is a certain element out there that says, "What will be will

be, and if they don't have a program, then they should not be viable

entities ." But I would hate to think that if we ever had to

mobilize, that this engineering, planning, and construction

organization would not be available to serve the nation .

And we have the civil works projects out there that need to be done

for the people, but are not being done and not being funded .

Because they are not being done and not being funded, they don't

provide the lifeblood of training for the organization that we may

need for mobilization .

So there is a very deep concern about the survivability and

viability of organizations . The base line, I feel, is that we have

got to have new missions and new jobs .
We just picked up $100,000 to do the master planning at Fort McCoy

and Camp Ripley . We just picked up $10,000 to do installation

support books for those two installations .

We are taking a much greater role in mobilization and military

programs and are working closer with our District in Omaha . We have

to get military programs to each District . We have to get EPA

super-fund monies into each District . We have to insure that the

budgets of Districts stay healthy to maintain their capabilities so

in the future we can meet the challenges .

I am very concerned that we don't l . ose our engineering hard skills,

4

our management hard skills, and our contracting hard skills and that

we stay viable as an organization .

Sounds like I'm running for office, doesn't it?

Q : Sounds good . Thank you very much for four delightful and

stimulating interviews . I appreciate it .

A : Thank you, Mickey . I've enjoyed them .
12 5

Baldus, Alvin, 22

benefit-cost ratio, 116

Blumenfeld, Michael, 95

Board of Fngineers for Rivers and Harbors, 42_, 77

Bratton, Joseph K ., 41, 42, 79

Bureau of Reclamation, 2.9

Burlington Dam (Souris River), 30-31, 90

Camp Ripley, 1.23

Canada, 27, 2.9-30

Carter administration, 40, 43, 93, 94

civilian employees, 1

counseling, 16

cross-training, 13, 46-47, 63-64, 111-112

demotions, 15-16

hiring, 14-15

promotions, 13

reassignment, 15-16

training, 13-15, 16, 20

Coast Guard, 25,48

communication, 10, 11, 65, 118-119

computers, 26, 50, 52-53, 79, 100-102, 103

contract management, 4-5, 20

cost sharing, 93-94

Crisafulli pumps, 105

decentralization, 3, 53, 57, 65, 84, 109

Detroit District, 24

Department of Defense, 119

deputy district engineer, 14, 92

dredging, 48

Dreyfus, Lee S ., 37

Durenberger, David F ., 6, 33, 69-70

Duluth Area Office, 24

emergency operations, 26, 71, 104-105, 106-107

Engineer inspector general, 54-55, 66, 91-92

environmental considerations, 6, 2.1, 25, 34, 35-36,

43-44, 48, 17

Environmental Protection Agency, 24, 123

environmentalism, 21, 43

environmentalists, 21, 28, 35, 117

Erdahl, Arlen I, 33

Federal Bureau of Investigation, 55, 57

Federal Emergency Management Agency, 23, 97

Fish and Wildlife Service, 24, 25, 116, 118
Fletcher, Kathy, 23

flood control, 23, 26-27, 29, 30, 33, 34, 42, 49$

51-52, 70-71, 82, 96-97, 104

Fort Carson, 17

Fort McCoy, 123

Gay, Forest T ., 28, 114

Gay, Mills, Wisconsin, 23

Gianelli, William, 85, 95-96

goals, 2, 4, 6

Great Environmental Action Team (GREAT) study

GREAT 1, 17, 24-25, 27 $ 6, 47-48, 77

GREAT II, 47

Harris, Richard, 5, 11, 90

Heiberg, Elvin R ., 44, 59, 61, 85

history, 37-39, 113

Huntsville Division, 4, 5

International Joint Commission, 27, 29, 30, 57, 100,

113

involvement with projects, 3-4

Iowa,, 24

jargon, 119

Keillor, Garrison, 107

La Farge Dam, (Kickapoo River), 21-23

Lake Darling, see Burlington Dam

Lake of the Woods board, 2 9

Lake Superior, 78

Lock and Dam 1 (Mississippi River), 4, 19-21, 71-72

long-range planning, 24, 27, 53, 76, 77, 80-81

Lucey, Patrick, 21

management

compared to command, 17-19

objectives, 54

philosophy, 19, 23-24, 2.8, 38, 58-60

pleasures, 36, 74-75

style, 109-110

management information systems, 102

Marshall, Minnesota, 42

Merritt, Raymond H ., 37 $ 8

Minneapolis, Minnesota, 4, 20, 72

Minneapolis Tribune , 32

Minnesota, 25, 2_6, 43, 49

Department of Natural Resources, 117, 119

Pollution Control Agency, 116-117

Minnesota River, 34

Mississippi River, 24, 34, 47, 77

nine-foot channel, 34, 35, 36, 72, 73

mobilization, 34, 72-74, 83, 122, 123

Morris, John W ., 4, 5

Moynihan-Domenici bill, 6 9

National Weather Service, 116, 118

navigation, 34, 48-49

Nelson, Gaylord, 22

New York District, 45

Noah, Max, 5

126
12 7

North rentral Division, 24, 40, 60, 73-74, 77, 91-92,

104

North Dakota, 26, 49, 51, 106

Water Commission, 117

Office of the Chief of Engineers, 59, 60

Civil Works Directorate, 9

Engineering Division, 88-89

Military Programs Directorate, 102

Resource Management Office, 45

Office automation, see computers

Olson, Allen I ., 106

Omaha District, 123

Operation Foresight, 70

"Prairie Home Companion," 107

project capability, 95

Proxmire, William, 22

public relations, 10-11, 31, 33, 38

Congress, 32-33, 61, 68-69, 115

"Keeper of the Waters," 11-12

press, 31-32, 67-68, 119-120

Rainy River board, 29

Rapp, Edward N ., 113-114

Reagan administration, 40, 41, .42, 44, 62, 82-84,

93, 95, 120

Reagan, Ronald, 96, 97

recreation, 35

Red River, 24, 2.6, 27, 29, 34, 47, 49, 50, 52, 70

Red River reconnaissance report, 25-26, 27, 77, 104

regulatory functions, 7, 43-44

Rochester, Minnesota, 33, 71

Rock Island District, 47

resources, 92, 122

budget, 13, 36-37, 42, 62, 98, 109

manpower, 36-37, 42, 62, 98-99

retirees, 11

ring levees, 26-27, 51

Sabo, Martin 0 ., 4

St . Paul, Minnesota, 13, 80, 89, 95, 113

St . Paul District, 24, 29, 47, 66, 77, 78, 92, 111,

112, 121

briefings, 8, 63, 65

Construction-Operations Division, 13, 63

corporate body, 9-11, 28, 46 $ 3, 64, 65, 66,

109, 110

Engineering Division, 7, 14, 46-47, 53, 64,

80, 86

functional managers, 8

management challenges, 36-37

Planning Division, 41, 44-47, 52, 53, 64, 78,

80, 86, 87

Procurement and Supply Division, 5, 14

see contract management
regulations, 54

staff meetings, 8, 9, 10, 53

technical resource center, 49, 50, 51

travel fraud, 55-57, 66, 107-108

Saudi Arbia, 4

Smith, Scott B., 44, 45, 49, 54, 58, 59, 63, 64, 65,

66, 79, 90, 91, 105

Soil Conservation Service, 33, 116

Soldiers Grove, Wisconsin, 23

Souris-Red River board, 29, 30

team-building, 7-8

transition

assistance to new district engineer, 99-100,

110, 112-114

effect on civilian employees, 114-115

from staff work, 1, 3

preparation for assignment as district engineer,

61-62

United States Geological Survey, 29

United States Military Academy, 79, 103, 121

water resources policy, 7, 23

public involvement, 6

state involvement, 6

Williams, Arthur, 80, 119

Wisconsin, 24, 43

Department of Natural Resources, 117, 118

128

GPO 900,21