1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4 Public Hearing on

5 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

6 Existing Power Plants

7

8

9

10 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.

11 Friday, August 1, 2014

12

13 Room A

14 William S. Moorhead Federal Building

15 1000 Liberty Avenue

16 Room 1310

17 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 TOM POWERS, Panel 1 Chair; and

3 Senior Policy Advisor,

4 Office of Air and Radiation

5 DEBRA DALCHER,

6 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards

7 MEG VICTOR

8 ANDREW KREIDER, Acting Associate Director,

9 Officer of Permits and Air Toxics

10

11

12 EPA PANEL 2:

13 DIANA ESHER, Panel 2 Chair; and Director,

14 Mid-Atlantic Air Protection

15 MICHAEL GORDON, 

16 Office of Permits and Toxics, Region 3

17 DAVE ARNOLD, Deputy Director,

18 Mid-Atlantic Air Protection

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1 EPA PANEL 3:

2 MIKE HERBER, Panel 3 Chair

3 DIANA ESHER, Director, 

4 Mid-Atlantic Air Protection

5 DEBRA DALCHER,

6 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 MIKE PAYTON, 

4 United Mine Workers of America 18

5 LEVI MCBEE, 

6 United Mine Workers of America 21 

7 MICHAEL PHILLIPPI,

8 United Mine Workers of America 24

9 JAMES FREDERICK,

10 United Mine Workers of America 27

11 ASHLEY HARTER, 

12 United Mine Workers of America 30

13 MITCHELL HESCOX, 

14 Resident of Pennsylvania 34

15 JESSIE CARR,

16 University of Pittsburgh 40 

17 LOU OTTO, 

18 United Mine Workers of America 43

19 RICH KULICK, 

20 United Mine Workers of America 47

21 HAROLD ERDOS, 

22 United Mine Workers of America 50

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 JOHN KOCHANOWSKI,

4 IBEW Local Union 712 53 

5 NILA GOUDY,

6 United Mine Workers of America 59

7 MEL PACKER, 

8 Marcellus Protest 62 

9 JEREMY WASHINGTON,

10 Resident of Michigan 68

11 ERIC RITTER, 

12 Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation 70 

13 AUL CAMERON,

14 IBEW Local 459 75

15 TIMOTHY BARR, 

16 Unaffiliated Citizen 80

17 DOUGLAS UNT,

18 Pennsylvania Interfaith Power and Light 83

19 DORCAS EVANS-MILLER,

20 Resident of Pennsylvania 88

21 DEB EUTSLER,

22 Resident of Pennsylvania 90 

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 JEFF KELLEY, 

4 Vindex Energy Corporation 95 

5 DON VICKERS,

6 Arch Coal 100

7 DENISE GARROTT 104

8 DONNA ZWIGART,

9 St. Francis of the Neumann Communities 109

10 SHARI SHAPIRO, 

11 International Code Council 112

12 JAY BUTERA,

13 Resident of Pennsylvania 120

14 JACQUELINE PATTERSON 125

15 KIMBERLY WILLIAMS 132

16 KEVIN LUSKY,

17 Resident of Pennsylvania 134

18 ANDREW GRANDE,

19 Resident of Rhode Island 136

20 BILL PRICE,

21 Sierra Club 141 

22

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 TOM CLARKE,

4 Senior Policy Advisor, DEP, West Virginia 150

5 GREG VOGT,

6 IBEW Local 5 157

7 JEFFREY MILLER,

8 IBEW Local 5 160

9 RICHARD DUNKEL,

10 IBEW Local 5 164

11 DAN CHU,

12 Sierra Club 168

13 DAVID MCKENNA 173

14 ROSALIE FINKELSTEIN 175

15 BRET SMITH,

16 American Iron and Steel Institute 180

17 MARLENE VAN ES 187

18 ETTA ALBRIGHT 191

19 MATTHEW NEZBETH,

20 Resident of Pennsylvania 196

21 CHRISTOPHER BURK,

22 Electric Reliability Coordinating Council 201

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 DONNA KOPNITSKY 208

4 JOHN DETWILER 212

5 KEVIN WHALEN 218

6 MICHAEL CASHIN,

7 Minnesota Power, ALLETE 223

8 DUSTIN WHITE,

9 Ohio Valley Environmental Coalition 228

10 MIKE FOLEY,

11 Ohio State Representative 234

12 EVAN ENDRUS,

13 Resident of Pennsylvania 241

14 GARY KIER 244

15 KEVIN SHEEN,

16 Alliance for Clean Energy in New York 249

17 KEVIN SHEEN,

18 QSPA Wind 255

19 DAN LITCHFIELD,

20 Iberdrola Renewables 259

21 CHELSEA HOLMES 263

22

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 PAUL POKROWKA,

4 Smart Transportation Division 265

5 JOHN KISSEL,

6 Resident of Missouri 270

7 SHANELLE SMITH,

8 Emerald Cities Cleveland 274

9 CHRISTOPHER SEYMOUR,

10 Resident of Pennsylvania 278

11 PHILLIP VAN DAMME, 

12 Resident of Ohio 283

13 KAREN MELTON 286

14 RUSSELL GOLMAN, 

15 Resident of Pennsylvania 290

16 RON SOLENTANA,

17 Pennsylvania Solar Energy Industries

18 Association, Mid-Atlantic Solar Energies

19 Association, National Solar Energy 

20 Industry's Association 293

21 STAN KABALA,

22 Bayer School Environmental Sciences 298

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE 

3 DORIS MARLIN 304

4 JAN MILBURN,

5 Resident of Pennsylvania 308

6 JACK MILBURN,

7 Resident of Pennsylvania 315

8 HEATHER LANGELAND 320

9 NICKY SHEETS,

10 Center for the Urban Environment 324

11 MIKE CAREY,

12 Murray Energy Corporation 333

13 HAROLD HOEM,

14 Montana Elders for a Livable Tomorrow 338

15 JOHN PARKER-BLIER,

16 Resident of Pennsylvania 345

17 LAUREN STALTER 350

18 BRETT PHILLIPS 353

19 GWEN CHUTE,

20 Sierra Club 357

21 EDWARD CHUTE,

22 Resident of Pennsylvania 361

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE 

3 ADRIENNE KALTMAN,

4 Resident of Florida 367

5 MELISSA MCSWIGAN,

6 Resident of Pennsylvania 372

7 BRAD MACAULAY,

8 Resident of Pennsylvania 374

9 CLAIRE MATWAY,

10 Resident of Pennsylvania 378

11 PAULA BROOKS,

12 County Commissioner, Franklin County, Ohio 383

13 EVA RESNICK-DAY,

14 Resident of Pennsylvania 388

15 DAN SLEIGEL,

16 Resident of Pennsylvania 392

17 MONICA MADAUS,

18 Resident of Pennsylvania 398

19 VALESSA SOUTER-KLINE 401

20 PETER STALTER 405

21 DAN SLEIGEL,

22 Resident of Pennsylvania 408

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. POWERS: Good morning, everybody. I 

3 think we'll start right on time here, and there 

4 are a lot of people that would like to 

5 participate, so we'll make good use of the time.

6 One scheduling sort of thing. One of the 

7 Regional Administrators -- EPA's Regional 

8 Administrator, Shawn Garvin, wants to welcome 

9 everybody. He is welcoming the other room 

10 first -- no. Diana, what's he doing? Right, so 

11 we're going to start. 

12 But in order not to lose any time waiting 

13 for him, we're going to start and then we'll take 

14 a brief stop and just make a few welcoming 

15 remarks when he gets here.

16 My name is Tom Powers, I'm Senior Policy 

17 Advisor to the Air office and Headquarters at EPA 

18 in Washington. I'm one of the Chairs of today's 

19 Public Hearing.

20 With me on my right are Debra Dalcher. 

21 On my left, Meg Victor will be the hearing panel 

22 for this morning. 

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1 We're here today to listen your comments 

2 on two proposed rules to reduce carbon pollution 

3 from power plants in the U.S. EPA announced 

4 these proposed rules on June 2nd of this year.

5 As you probably read, power plants are 

6 the largest source of carbon pollution in the 

7 U.S., accounting for roughly a third of all 

8 domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 

9 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

10 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

11 proposal consists of two main parts; state 

12 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

13 power plants and guidelines to help states 

14 develop their plans for meeting those goals.

15 The proposal is intended to give states 

16 flexibility in determining how to meet their 

17 goals. States can choose what goes into their 

18 plans that show how they'll achieve them by the 

19 target date of 2030.

20 The second rule we're going to comment on 

21 is EPA's Proposed Rule to Address Carbon Dioxide 

22 Emissions from Modified and Reconstruted Power 

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1 Plants. This rule would set emission limits for 

2 two groups of plants; those that make physical or 

3 operational changes that increase the plant's 

4 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions, and 

5 those that replace components to such an extent 

6 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

7 capital cost of a brand new comparable facility.

8 If you would like more details on either 

9 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

10 available near the registration desk downstairs, 

11 and at least yesterday there were sheets in the 

12 back of the hearing rooms as well.

13 Today's hearing is the final day of four 

14 Public Hearings that we are holding across the 

15 country this week. There were hearings in 

16 Atlanta, and Denver and Washington D.C. earlier. 

17 Today is the second day of our two-day hearing in 

18 Pittsburgh.

19 We have had tremendous interest in these 

20 hearings. I want to thank all of you for taking 

21 time out of your day to join us and either listen 

22 or to share your comments. We have a lot of 

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1 people signed up to speak. We want to hear from 

2 all of them, so we're going to try to run things 

3 as smoothly as we can. 

4 A few ground rules. Please be sure you 

5 checked in at the registration desk downstairs 

6 even if you're not planning to speak. If you did 

7 sign up to speak online or ahead of time, please 

8 let us know that you're here so we can be sure we 

9 have your name on one of these cards that give me 

10 the order of speakers that are coming up.

11 Also, there is a room letter for each of 

12 the two hearing rooms, so we're in Room A. If 

13 you happen to be targeted for Room B, this would 

14 be a good time to find Room B, which is two 

15 floors up on the 15th floor.

16 Just for the mechanics of today, I'll 

17 call speakers up in pairs. When your name is 

18 called please come up to the speaker table over 

19 here. I will try to give people a head's up and 

20 let you know who's on deck, so who's coming up 

21 after the two in front of us. 

22 It's very helpful if you could state your 

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1 name and spell it for the court reporter. We're 

2 having the hearings transcribed. There will be a 

3 public record, we try to get everybody's name 

4 right.

5 Everybody will get five minutes to speak. 

6 There will be a light right here. Meg is in 

7 charge of the light. It's a green light at the 

8 bottom for the first four minutes. And then the 

9 fourth minute it turns yellow, so you know you're 

10 sort of coming up to five. At five there's a 

11 little buzzer and a red light.

12 I'm not going to sort of cut anybody off 

13 in mid-sentence, but it certainly is the case 

14 that when there are a lot of people wanting to 

15 speak, it's helpful for everybody if everybody 

16 sort of tries to stick to that five minutes, and 

17 I'll start coughing or stand up or something if 

18 people go on much past five.

19 We're happy to take written comments if

20 you have a copy of your statement. We're also 

21 accepting written comments until October 16th. 

22 Everything that people write gets read and paid 

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1 just as much attention to as any oral testimony, 

2 so if you don't get to make all of your points in 

3 the five minutes you've got, feel free to give us 

4 a longer statement in writing, we will be sure to 

5 take it into account.

6 We are scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

7 tonight. Last night we had a number of people 

8 signed up, but it turned out to be a little 

9 thinner once we got to that time period, so we 

10 wrapped it at 7:45, but there will be a session 

11 this evening.

12 We'll take a couple different breaks, one 

13 for lunch at noon until one, or possibly 12:10 or 

14 so. We'll get as many people in as we can this 

15 morning. And then another dinner break from 5:00 

16 to 6:00.

17 Occasionally, either I or my other panel 

18 members may have a question for a speaker that we 

19 may ask you as a clarifying sort of thing, but 

20 mostly we're here to listen to you. So the vast 

21 majority of the time will be devoted to hearing 

22 from you.

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1 And I guess the last thing I'd say, sort 

2 of the obvious, we appreciate everybody's respect 

3 for each other. It's helpful not to have either 

4 applause, boos, sort of audience participation. 

5 We're very much interested in trying to keep 

6 these moving, so we encourage your respectful 

7 listening to your colleagues who are testifying.

8 With that, it's time to get started. The 

9 first speaker is Mike Payton, and with him on the 

10 panel is Levi McBee.

11 MR. PAYTON: Good morning. My name is 

12 Mike Payton, P-a-y-t-o-n. I live in Reedsville, 

13 West Virginia. I'm a member of UMWA Local Union 

14 9909 and I work at Murray America Energy at the 

15 Marion County coal mine.

16 While I understand that the EPA's motive 

17 in shutting down coal fired in favor of cleaner 

18 methods of energy output in the U.S., with the 

19 hope -- the hope -- that this will encourage 

20 other countries to do the same. I do not believe 

21 that this is an option that will be successful 

22 long term. 

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1 First of all, there is no hard evidence 

2 to back up the claim that countries that are 

3 still relying heavily or primarily on the use of 

4 coal fired power plants will minimize, stop or 

5 change their current methods simply because that 

6 is what is happening in the United States.

7 These countries are going to continue to 

8 use the methods that work for them regardless of 

9 what the EPA mandates in this country. It is 

10 naive to think that our influence in this 

11 particular matter will cause global change.

12 Second, and more immediately important to 

13 myself and others in similar positions, pertains 

14 to the loss of income that I and many others will 

15 suffer if our mines are shut down. This will, of 

16 course, affect myself and my family. 

17 However, the consequences will 

18 undoubtedly reach much farther than that if I 

19 lose my job, and therefore have no income. I 

20 will not have the resources to make purchases at 

21 the grocery store or the mall, or at other 

22 companies that rely on the regular patronage of 

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1 customers like myself in order to stay in 

2 business.

3 In my town and many other areas, coal 

4 mining is a family business. With so many 

5 individuals without jobs, with so many entire 

6 families and community members unable to put 

7 money back into the market, my entire community 

8 will suffer economically.

9 Unfortunately, or ultimately, I believe

10 that this decision will do much more harm than 

11 good, and I ask the EPA, consider this and think 

12 carefully about the disastrous results that could 

13 affect much more than just a few thousand jobs.

14 This is a decision that will centrally 

15 change the economic dynamics of entire regions of 

16 the country in a massive and negative way. In a 

17 region where coal mining is prevalent and where 

18 coal mining jobs are numerous and widespread, 

19 closing down these mines will have an extensive 

20 and very damaging effect that reaches much 

21 farther than just the coal miners and their 

22 families. 

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1 Is it worth it to put this plan into 

2 action based on the mere hope that maybe other 

3 countries will follow our example and ditch coal 

4 mining for windmills? There's no proof that this 

5 will change their system, and yet the EPA is so 

6 willing to ax thousands of jobs and put the 

7 economy at risk in pursuit of this unlikely wish. 

8 For the sake of our jobs, our communities, our 

9 economies, this decision must be reconsidered. 

10 In the end, I don't see the Agency's 

11 proposed policy has a real solution. We will 

12 lose what we have worked for all of our lives and 

13 our communities will struggle in poverty. How 

14 can the EPA call this a success story. Thank 

15 you.

16 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Mr. McBee?

17 MR. MCBEE: Good morning, my name is Levi 

18 McBee, M-c-B-e-e. I live near Wileyville, West 

19 Virginia. I'm a union member, 1501. I work at 

20 Harrison County Mine.

21 I just want to thank you for the 

22 opportunity to be here to voice my opinion. And 

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1 I've been trying to understand some of the EPA 

2 things, but it's kind of contradicting to me. 

3 You wrote out the Clean Power Plan by 

4 stating the goal is to reduce carbon dioxide 

5 emissions by 30 percent below 2005 levels, but 

6 nobody ever mentions that they're currently 13 

7 percent below those levels now, which is an 

8 important fact, because that proves that we're 

9 doing everything we can to get the emissions 

10 down, but nobody wants to mention that.

11 They also want to take great effort in 

12 explaining how if the United States puts the rule

13 into effect other countries will follow. But 

14 they don't tell anybody that other countries plan 

15 to build 1,200 coal fired power plants to meet 

16 their energy needs, and between China and India 

17 alone, four plants are coming online every week. 

18 So no matter what you do here, they're still 

19 going to do what they want.

20 It's also the EPA issued the Maximum 

21 Achievable Control Technology rule also known as 

22 MACT. At the time it was stated that MACT would 

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1 reduce pollutants, including heavy metals, from 

2 smoke stack and boiler emissions, which would 

3 reduce the incidence of asthma, emphysema and 

4 chronic diseases.

5 But now you make the same claim with this 

6 new plan, Clean Power Plan, but one rule wasn't 

7 enough. What I don't understand is the EPA 

8 chooses to cherry-pick facts instead of just 

9 telling the truth. 

10 When you look at industries in the 

11 country, you refuse to apply that technology 

12 exists, while at the same time investing research 

13 will allow us to use more plentiful natural 

14 resources. The EPA appears to have decided it's 

15 just not worth the effort.

16 How will you keep energy prices low so 

17 homeowners and businesses can afford to keep the 

18 lights on if we dismantle the least expensive 

19 form of generation we have. 

20 This rule costs thousands of jobs lost in 

21 the coal field, support industries and 

22 manufacturing centers across the country. They 

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1 will go elsewhere, line steel mills closing and a 

2 host of other industries we have outsourced, 

3 surely we are better than this as a nation. 

4 That's all I have.

5 MR. POWERS: Thank you. The next speaker 

6 is Mike Phillippi, and with him James Frederick. 

7 And after them, the next panel after them on deck 

8 will be Ashley Harter and Reverend Mitch Hescox.

9 MR. PHILLIPPI: Good morning. 

10 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

11 MR. PHILLIPPI: My name is Michael 

12 Phillippi, P-h-i-l-l-i-p-p-i. I work for Murray 

13 American Energy, Inc. I work at the Monongah 

14 County Mine just outside of Morgantown, West 

15 Virginia. I'm a proud member of UMWA, Local 

16 1702.

17 My testimony will highlight what the rule 

18 is supposed to accomplish, but unfortunately, it 

19 will not be able to achieve. The stated goal, as 

20 I understand it, is to reduce carbon dioxide 

21 emissions released into the atmosphere and the 

22 United States by 30 percent.

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1 That reduction is 30 percent below 2005 

2 levels. Understanding, of course, that the total 

3 emissions of all types emitted by coal fired 

4 power plants have already been significantly 

5 reduced over the past several decades.

6 The general idea then as I understand it 

7 is to put pressure on other nations to follow 

8 suit and to reduce their power plant emissions. 

9 While the idea may have some merit and if all 

10 other countries accept this challenge, we might 

11 find ourselves on a level playing field in 

12 dealing with the global problem.

13 However, if we simply look at the 

14 realities of how these other countries are 

15 planning for their own energy future, it becomes 

16 apparent we're only fooling ourselves.

17 Newspapers and other publications, 

18 including the Guardian, New York Times, 

19 Environmental and Climate News, World Resource

20 Institute and others have identified 59 countries 

21 across the globe that are planning to build 1,200 

22 coal fired power plants, constructing these 

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1 plants at a rate of four per week.

2 India and China are scheduled to build 

3 818 of these coal fired stations over the next 

4 fifteen years. This will increase coal fired 

5 electric generation in China by 50 percent in 

6 that time. China, who according to Environmental 

7 and Climate News, does not have any pollution 

8 control at all on 30 percent of their generating 

9 stations, and do not use the scrubbing equipment 

10 of much of the remaining 70 percent to keep their 

11 energy costs low.

12 These are the countries you intend to 

13 influence with this misguided policy. This, 

14 however, does not tell the whole story either. 

15 Countries that produce little or no coal within 

16 their borders, including Japan, Taiwan, South 

17 Korea, all who have large numbers of coal fired 

18 power plants, have increased coal imports 

19 drastically in the past years.

20 Likewise, countries that have 

21 historically imported vast amounts of coal for 

22 years, like Germany, the U.K., and France, have 

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1 also increased the imports in recent years.

2 So whether we would consider these other 

3 nations, friend or foe, they are all moving in 

4 the absolute opposite direction with regard to 

5 meeting their own future power needs. 

6 Instead of encouraging and investing in 

7 new technology like carbon capture and 

8 sequestration, and other clean coal technology at 

9 home, the EPA is content to shut our industries 

10 across the nation by implementing a policy that 

11 is simply doomed to fail.

12 Unfortunately, this failure comes at an 

13 extreme cost for those working in coal and coal 

14 related industries. Once again, we are moving 

15 ahead with policies that will enrich other 

16 countries at the expense of our own people. This 

17 is not a bold policy, it's a sellout. Thank you. 

18 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

19 MR. FREDERICK: Good morning, everyone. 

20 My name is James Frederick, F-r-e-d-e-r-i-c-k. I 

21 am a coal miner. I live in Finleyville, 

22 Pennsylvania. I am a member of the UMWA Local 

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1 Union 2300, and I work at the Cumberland Mine in 

2 Waynesburg, Pennsylvania. 

3 Thank you all for allowing me the time to 

4 speak at this hearing on the EPA's proposed rule. 

5 While I find this rule disturbing in many ways, I 

6 will keep my comments brief and focus on some of 

7 the statements regarding what this policy will do 

8 for America.

9 In a press release on June 2nd, 2014, the 

10 agency made many predictions about what benefits 

11 were reaped as a result of this rule, the EPA 

12 noted that the rule will, quote, "Fight climate 

13 change while supplying America with reliable and 

14 efficient power," end of quote.

15 I think the idea that this rule will do 

16 anything to reduce global emissions has been 

17 clearly refuted by many of the speakers before 

18 me. It is the second half of the statement that 

19 I also find questionable.

20 I would argue that unlike most other 

21 nations around the globe, we have already 

22 accomplished that goal. Moreover, we have done 

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1 it while at the same time keeping energy costs 

2 low enough to allow everyone to afford them.

3 Sometimes it is what you don't say that 

4 can be as important as what you want people to 

5 believe. It is about efficiency and reliability, 

6 but it is also about affordability. You can 

7 produce all types of products and offer unlimited 

8 services, but if the people cannot afford them 

9 there is no use in producing them. 

10 It's strange, but even Henry Ford, a man 

11 not known for being overly generous, understood 

12 that he could not -- couldn't sell a car to a 

13 person who didn't make enough money to buy one. 

14 Unfortunately, you are looking at the same 

15 situation from the opposite point of view. You 

16 intend to produce a product and assume that 

17 regardless of the cost burden placed on working 

18 families, they will have no choice but to buy it.

19 The same problem will exist for 

20 businesses in this country. They will be 

21 required to purchase power from far more 

22 expensive generating sources. But unlike the 

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1 workers who lose their jobs, businesses will do 

2 what they have done for decades when faced with 

3 rising costs. They will close shop and move to 

4 another country where costs are lower.

5 The costs associated with this rule will 

6 help escalate unemployment in the remaining 

7 industrial base of our nation. So as you 

8 consider the consequences of this rule, it should 

9 become clear that your prediction, that it will, 

10 "spur innovation and create jobs," end of quote, 

11 may eventually come true, just not here in the 

12 United States. We will, once again, create the 

13 perfect conditions to assist our competitors 

14 around the globe at the expense of our own 

15 citizens. 

16 And as we race to the bottom, bankrupting 

17 the nation, the policy you impose will be seen 

18 for what it is, expensive and futile. Thank you. 

19 MR. POWERS: Thank you both. Ashley 

20 Harter and Reverend Mitch Hescox.

21 MS. HARTER: Good morning. My name is 

22 Ashley Harter, H-a-r-t-e-r. I am a coal miner 

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1 employed at Alpha Natural Resources, Cumberland 

2 Mine, in Waynesburg, Pennsylvania, and a member 

3 of the United Mine Workers of America, Local 

4 2300.

5 I would like to thank you for the 

6 opportunity to address this panel on the new EPA 

7 Clean Power Plan released June 2nd, 2014.

8 I have worked at the mine for four years 

9 and I am currently a shuttle car operator at the 

10 mine. I am pleased to be able to offer testimony 

11 to this community on what is a matter of great 

12 importance to myself, my coworkers and our 

13 families.

14 Like other miners who will be testifying 

15 here today, my family relies on my continued 

16 employment at the mine to sustain the life we are

17 building. The health and well-being of my 

18 ten-year-old daughter, Ariana, depends on the 

19 ability to bring home a paycheck. 

20 Our ability to remain contributing 

21 members of the community is tied to the work that 

22 I do. How can you strip that away from us? 

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1 My comments will be brief and I will keep 

2 my subject that I believe goes to the heart of 

3 crafting in this rule. That is how can a rule 

4 that affects scores of workers become a law 

5 without a bid in Congress, or they didn't see 

6 that as adapting to the policy, underestimating 

7 the damage they do to real people and real 

8 families.

9 The EPA has billed this hearing and the 

10 ones in other cities as an, I quote, "opportunity 

11 for interested parties to present data, reviews 

12 or arguments concerning the proposed action."

13 Unfortunately, what the EPA is attempting 

14 to accomplish in these hearings is to avoid 

15 listening to the very people who will bear the 

16 brunt of his misguided policy. It is truly 

17 dishonest for the EPA to avoid going to the coal 

18 fields to hold these hearings. You're going to 

19 Atlanta, Denver, Washington, D.C. and here in 

20 Pittsburgh. This is the only place that even 

21 comes close to being in the coal fields.

22 Even at that, the closest working coal 

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1 mines are several counties away from here. I 

2 have no doubt that this rule will be implemented 

3 by your agency at great personal and community 

4 expense to my family and thousands of other 

5 families who do not live anywhere close to where 

6 we have conducted hearings.

7 It's no surprise to people where I'm from 

8 that the conclusion you have reached and the rule 

9 you will impose is misguided, not simply because 

10 the methods you have used to reach these 

11 conclusions are misguided, but also because you 

12 have ignored the very people who are most 

13 severely impacted. 

14 The idea that you don't offer members of 

15 the community that will be economically 

16 devastated by your actions the courtesy of 

17 conducting hearings in those communities 

18 demonstrated that, at the very least, the 

19 appearance of ignorance and reinforcing the 

20 beliefs that your determinations are made solely 

21 on the data and information you deem important 

22 regardless of what other information may be 

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1 available elsewhere.

2 I sincerely request that you not stop 

3 here. Conduct more hearings where the people who 

4 will be most adversely impacted by the rule live 

5 and work. Come to Morgantown and Beckley, West 

6 Virginia; Washington, Pennsylvania; Bessemer, 

7 Alabama; Henderson, Kentucky; and Price, Utah.

8 When you make life and death decisions 

9 for workers, their families and our communities, 

10 you should have the courage to look them in the 

11 eye. Yes, I did say life and death decisions. 

12 This is what is happening with the rule, and 

13 every one of us should treat it with that 

14 understanding. Thank you for your time.

15 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Reverend Hescox.

16 MR. HESCOX: I'm the Reverend Mitchell C. 

17 Hescox, H-e-s-c-o-x. 

18 See, he said to our people. This stone 

19 will be a witness against us. It has heard the 

20 words the Lord has said to us. It will be a 

21 witness against you if you are untrue to your 

22 God.

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1 I am Mitch Hescox, President of the 

2 Evangelical Environmental Network, a resident and 

3 native of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and 

4 Evangelical Pro-Life Christian and lifelong 

5 Republican.

6 Today I'm here in support of the EPA's 

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan and to offer my unique 

8 prospective, not only as an Evangelical 

9 Christian, but as someone who has been 18 years 

10 as a local church pastor, 14 years as a 

11 professional in the coal and power industries, 

12 and is also a father and grandfather.

13 Today marks the opportunity for a new 

14 day. We have a choice to make. Will we, as 

15 citizens of the United States, defend the lives 

16 and health of our children and provide them the 

17 opportunity for a new clean energy economy, or 

18 will we burden them not only with a national 

19 monetary debt, but the even more harmful burden 

20 of increasing a climate change world.

21 Will we stop the special favors that the 

22 coal industry has enjoyed and allow the real cost 

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1 of coal to affect our decisions? With four 

2 children and five grandchildren, I have 

3 considerable interest in the future and the

4 future for all of God's children.

5 My kids have never experienced a June 

6 below the 20th century average. And with June, 

7 2014 as the hottest June in the history of the 

8 world, marking the 352nd month above the 20th 

9 century average, my grandchildren already live in 

10 a changed world.

11 The future is upon us and the question 

12 remains, will we cling to a threatening past or 

13 stretch to a new future?

14 There are many good people testifying 

15 here today that are concerned for their jobs and 

16 their family. They fear the loss of jobs in a 

17 way of life, and at the same time we look at this 

18 rule, we must be concerned for coal miners and 

19 power plant workers and find a way to address 

20 their fears.

21 It's not an unknown fear. Back in 1900 

22 or thereabouts, the number three industry in the 

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1 United States was horses, both in terms of jobs 

2 and in terms of money.

3 But it soon faced the similar situation 

4 that the coal mining industry is facing today for 

5 the automobile industry. But living in a country 

6 whose economy is based on market, we must allow 

7 the marketers to create new opportunities and 

8 brighter future, and not be hindered by political 

9 road blocks from special interest.

10 For years we have subsidized the cost of 

11 coal generated electricity in the brains, lungs 

12 and bodies of our children and privatized the 

13 cost to profits. Asthmas, cancers, autism, birth 

14 defects and brain damage have a direct link to 

15 the use of fossil fuels and petro chemicals.

16 Even today, according to the American 

17 Lung Association, Pittsburgh still flunks its 

18 air, and over 26,000 children right here in this 

19 community have asthma and live asthma impeded 

20 lives. And a climate change will just make smog 

21 worse.

22 These threats to our children make caring 

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1 for God's creation a matter of life in Christian 

2 discipleship. 

3 The Proposed Clean Power Plant Rule 

4 begins a mark of correction that is long overdue. 

5 Some of us wish to believe that coal electricity 

6 is cheap, but according to several studies, when 

7 you add the cost to our health and medical bills, 

8 lost lives, property damage and the like, coal 

9 electricity is at least triple what you pay at 

10 the meter. Coal appears cheap, but each of us 

11 pays the price in our children's health, 

12 insurance premiums, fouled air and polluted 

13 water.

14 Providing pure water and clean air 

15 shouldn't be a hindrance to our economy, jobs and 

16 future. In fact, having a fruitful creation 

17 enhances existing industries, new industries, the 

18 attractiveness of communities and satisfied 

19 employees.

20 If Pennsylvania takes advantage of this 

21 proposed standard's flexibility, there will be an 

22 equal amount of employment created from the 

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1 natural gas industry as resulting from switching 

2 fuel.

3 More importantly, 13,000 new jobs will be 

4 created by 2020 if Pennsylvania's implementation 

5 plan for the Clean Power Plan returns the 

6 commonwealth to its former's leadership.

7 Job creation is vital, but defending life 

8 remains paramount. And the Proposed Clean Power 

9 Plan Rule accomplishes significant pollution 

10 reduction in both carbon and additional coal 

11 pollutants, including particulates, sulfur 

12 dioxide and NOx. 

13 According to a recent Harvard and 

14 Syracuse study, Pennsylvania and the Ohio River 

15 Valley will be the single largest location in the 

16 country to benefit from this new standard.

17 I know my time is running out, and I'd 

18 just like to close by saying that this is an 

19 opportunity for all of us to come together. We 

20 have concerns to address from the coal miners. 

21 We have a future to look at for our children. 

22 In the passage that I quoted from 

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1 scripture earlier was a great place where Joshua 

2 gathered all the people together to come together 

3 and make a plan, and I would ask that we would 

4 all come together, find solutions to all these 

5 problems and make a healthier, brighter, future 

6 America for all of us. Thank you very much. 

7 MR. POWERS: Thank you both very much. 

8 MR. HESCOX: Just to record that my 

9 written statement includes the rest of my 

10 testimony.

11 MR. POWERS: Okay, great. I am waiting 

12 for the next cards. This is the just in time 

13 delivery system here. Thank you very much. 

14 The next two speakers are Jessie Carr and 

15 Louis Otto.

16 MS. CARR: Good morning. My name is 

17 Jessie Carr and I'm a research scientist in the 

18 Department of Environmental and Occupational 

19 Health at the University of Pittsburgh Graduate 

20 School of Public Health. And I am grateful for 

21 the opportunity today to voice my support for 

22 both of the proposed rules. 

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1 Historically, commonsense health base 

2 pollution control regulations have a concern over 

3 what they might cost. And we have seen again and 

4 again that the benefits far outweigh those costs.

5 From a public health prospective, the 

6 EPA's proposed rule is long overdue. And we've 

7 projected newer term health benefits outweighing 

8 costs by ten to one. We cannot afford to wait.

9 Across the commonwealth we have some of 

10 the nation's highest smog levels. We are 

11 breaking heat wave records each summer and more 

12 frequent and extreme storms and flooding threaten 

13 the livelihood and security of rural and urban 

14 residents alike.

15 Implementing sensible carbon regulation 

16 can lessen the worst public health impacts of 

17 climate change locally and globally and support 

18 innovation and diversification in our energy 

19 sector. Carbon emissions limits in the proposed 

20 rule, the Clean Power Plan, are supported by 72 

21 percent of Pennsylvania voters, according to a 

22 poll by the League of Conservation voters.

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1 The proposed rule offers states 

2 flexibility to decide how they meet those carbon 

3 standards, and I want to focus my comments today 

4 on actions for state and federal lawmakers to 

5 ensure that the benefits of the proposed rule are 

6 shared equally and sustainably. 

7 First, the EPA must require environmental 

8 justice analysis as part of the state 

9 implementation plans to ensure that communities 

10 already over-burdened with industrial pollution 

11 do not continue to disproportionately bear those 

12 costs, particularly for states who opt for cap 

13 and trade approaches.

14 Second, without sensible health based 

15 regulations for the unconventional, natural gas 

16 industry, the economic and health benefits of the 

17 proposed rule will be undone and create 

18 potentially equally daunting challenges for 

19 future Pennsylvanians. 

20 Specifically, the EPA and Pennsylvania 

21 DEP should require one, best available technology 

22 for capturing unintended methane emissions, green 

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1 completions and close waste water systems.

2 Second, we must create systems and 

3 enforcement from monitoring of well bore 

4 integrity.

5 Three, weighing out health protective, 

6 well permitting guidelines.

7 Four, enforcement authority and resources 

8 for state and local agencies to oversee this 

9 emerging industry.

10 Five, transparency around reduced water 

11 components and disposal systems.

12 Six, a prospective epidemiological 

13 investigation of potential health effects which 

14 are to date unknown and under investigated.

15 And thank you again for the opportunity 

16 to present my comments.

17 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Mr. Otto?

18 MR. OTTO: Good morning. My name is Lou 

19 Otto, O-t-t-o. I live in Hibbs, Pennsylvania, a 

20 small mining community about 50 miles south of 

21 here. I am a member of the United Mine Workers 

22 of American Local Union 1980 and I worked at the 

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1 Consolidated Coal Company Dilworth Mine for 29 

2 years. 

3 Like many of the miners who have 

4 testified before the EPA, regarding the Clean 

5 Power Plan, I spent most of my life in this small 

6 knit community where the sons have followed their 

7 fathers, their grandfathers into the mines to 

8 earn a living. 

9 However, before my mining career began I 

10 was inducted in the Navy in May of 1957. And 

11 after basic training I was deployed all over the 

12 world in service of my country. I served as a 

13 Quartermaster Navigator on a destroyer for four 

14 years.

15 At that time I served with men from all 

16 across this nation in all walks of life. As most 

17 who have served, I felt a unique bond with others 

18 who have been drafted or joined the military.

19 Military service teaches you many things, 

20 including a deep sense of commitment to your 

21 country and a brotherhood with those you have 

22 served with. My service to this country has 

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1 helped define who I am and I am proud of my 

2 service to this nation.

3 When I returned home I began my mining 

4 career, built a life for my family, educated my 

5 children, and have been a hard member of this 

6 society.

7 And like with my military service, I was 

8 surrounded by a very unique group of people. 

9 Coal miners rely on each other. They look out 

10 for one another and the work that we do creates a 

11 brotherhood of its own.

12 There are few occupations in this world 

13 that require each person to rely so heavily on 

14 the brothers and sisters that they work with. 

15 Like my military service, I am very proud to be a 

16 miner.

17 I have served my country, worked hard to 

18 make a living in the mines. And those efforts 

19 has helped this nation grow into a world super 

20 power.

21 Coal has powered the industrial base, 

22 built sustainable manufacturing and made sure 

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1 that when you flip a switch the lights will come 

2 on.

3 I have made a good living in the mines, 

4 and through my years of service I have earned a 

5 pension and healthcare for my retirement years. 

6 Yet none of these efforts seem to matter. The 

7 EPA has decided that what I have done, and what I 

8 have earned are somehow insignificant.

9 You have determined that my family and I 

10 can be sacrificed as part of your misguided plan, 

11 despite all the years of work and dedication to 

12 this nation.

13 With implementation of this rule you are 

14 threatening all that I have worked for. You will 

15 put my pension plan at risk and eliminate -- yes, 

16 eliminate my healthcare all at the same time.

17 The EPA's plan to marginalize the coal 

18 industry in this country will have no positive 

19 impact on global problems you are targeting, but 

20 it will destroy all that I and my fellow workers 

21 have worked for. I appreciate your time and 

22 thank you.

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1 MR. POWERS: Thank you for your comments. 

2 The next two speakers are Rich Kulick and Harold 

3 Erdos.

4 MR. KULICK: Good morning. My name is 

5 Richard Kulick, K-u-l-i-c-k. I live in 

6 Sankertown, Pennsylvania. I'm a proud member of 

7 UMWA Local 1368 in Cambria County, and I thank 

8 you for the opportunity to speak today.

9 I understand the Environmental Protection 

10 Agency touts itself as a body that relies on 

11 science when making its determinations, and then 

12 applies their findings in a practical manner.

13 While I'm not a scientist, I can point 

14 out that somewhere between science and its 

15 application, you have clearly disregarded any 

16 semblance of practicality. 

17 The evolution of the EPA's Clean Air 

18 Initiative to the final Clean Power Plan seems 

19 rather suspect. The fact that the proposal rule 

20 is almost identical to a 2012 report issued by 

21 the National Resource Defense Council, NRDC, 

22 cannot be refuted. With the exception of a few 

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1 minor differences, the major aspects of the NRDC 

2 recommendations is the EPA rule we are discussing 

3 today. 

4 This raises serious questions about the 

5 rule. First, it would seem inappropriate for any 

6 outside group such as the NRDC, which has a 

7 vested interest in crafting the outcome of public 

8 policy, to have such influence in the process.

9 Second, it raises serious questions about 

10 a government agency's independent judgment and 

11 determination regarding such policies. 

12 Certainly, from my point of view as a 

13 non-scientist, it appears to be very suspicious.

14 As I stated before, I cannot contest all 

15 of your science, but I certainly question your 

16 process. That, alone, makes me wonder about the 

17 legitimacy of this rule. Obviously, by actions 

18 taken by the Agency to move forward with the 

19 rule, these concerns aren't bothering anyone at 

20 the EPA. 

21 So the country ends up implementing a 

22 plan that the NRDC drafted, and the EPA 

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1 apparently agrees with, beyond a doubt is a plan 

2 that will ultimately result in the serious harm 

3 of the coal industry in the United States, and it 

4 also will result in massive job losses and 

5 hardship for mining families and communities, and 

6 all to what end? What do we hope will be the 

7 results of this policy? 

8 Do you actually believe other nations 

9 around the world will change their course and 

10 throw their citizens out of work and shatter all 

11 the coal fired power stations they are building? 

12 That simply will not happen. 

13 So from a practical aspect, the plan will 

14 be a flop. China and India alone can almost 

15 certainly make insignificant any reduction you 

16 seek in CO2 emissions by closing the coal fired 

17 power plants in the United States of America. 

18 What will you have accomplished then?

19 You will not only have destroyed hundreds 

20 of thousands of good paying jobs, you will have 

21 eliminated the possibility our great country 

22 would solve these global problems by investing in 

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1 new technology as it has demonstrated many times 

2 in the past.

3 Without the coal industry, there will be 

4 no push in the United States to find a real 

5 resolution. The EPA may believe it has all the 

6 answers to the problem, but there appear to be a 

7 lot of questions you haven't asked. I thank you 

8 for your time.

9 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

10 MR. ERDOS: My name is Harold Erdos, 

11 that's E-r-d-o-s. I am a retired miner and a 

12 member of the United Mine Workers of America 

13 Local Union Number 1304 in Hopedale, Ohio. I 

14 worked 10 years in underground coal mines in Ohio 

15 and I've worked 23 years for the United Mine 

16 Workers of America. I have been retired from the 

17 mines for 13 years. 

18 I currently receive a pension benefit 

19 from the UMWA Health and Retirement Funds, 

20 benefits that I earned through my years of hard 

21 work in the coal industry. I think it is 

22 important for everyone here to understand that 

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1 the pension benefits I receive is the result of 

2 years of sacrifice. They are the promise of the 

3 collective bargaining agreements between the UMWA 

4 and the coal operators to provide economic 

5 security to miners when we retire from the 

6 industry.

7 Whether you know it or not, the policy 

8 that the EPA is proposing here, if fully 

9 implemented, will put these hard earned benefits 

10 at serious risk. Look at this from my point of 

11 view. Your hope that this policy will eliminate 

12 a global problem is uncertain at best.

13 However, the rush to apply this risky 

14 policy, which focuses almost exclusively on the 

15 coal industry, will make it uncertain that I will 

16 receive the pension I was promised and that I 

17 risked my life for and my health for every single 

18 day that I worked and earned.

19 As a person who represented workers for 

20 most of my adult life, I believe that the 

21 situation that retired coal miners and their 

22 families face because of this policy is 

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1 outrageous. The problem should be easy for 

2 everyone here to understand. It is about keeping 

3 what you have earned, worked a lot of time to 

4 achieve. I am sure that each of you looks 

5 forward to the day when you can retire and 

6 continue to live securely because of the 

7 retirement promises that were made to you in 

8 return for the hard work you do for the 

9 government.

10 I, for one, sincerely hope that those 

11 days arrive for you when you choose to leave your 

12 profession. This is all that I am asking for. 

13 It is all that my brothers and sisters, who have 

14 given their best years of their lives to their 

15 profession, are looking to receive. 

16 We have earned the right to expect 

17 security in our retirement. We have secured 

18 those rights through hard work, sacrifice and 

19 years of collective bargaining agreements. But

20 if this agency chooses to adopt this questionable 

21 policy and destroy a large portion of the coal 

22 industry, it can also destroy our future.

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1 In closing I would like to thank you for 

2 your time and ask that you look very closely at 

3 the consequences of the actions that you are 

4 proposing here today. Thank you. 

5 MR. POWERS: Thank you. The next two 

6 speakers are John Kochanowski and Nila Goudy.

7 MR. KOCHANOWSKI: You did very good on 

8 that pronunciation, by the way.

9 MR. POWERS: Good. Thank you. 

10 MR. KOCHANOWSKI: My name is John 

11 Kochanowski, K-o-c-h-a-n-o-w-s-k-i. I'm a member 

12 of Local Union 712 IBEW. Here I'm here speaking 

13 on behalf of construction IBEW Local Union 712 

14 and it's 450 members.

15 I'm here today because our members are 

16 concerned about their loss of their jobs due to 

17 the EPA's Proposed Clean Power Plan. 

18 I will relate to my personal experiences 

19 about the economic opportunities provided by coal 

20 and nuclear plants to our members, residents and 

21 businesses in the tri-state areas over the past 

22 four decades.

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1 My oldest brother, Patrick, had graduated 

2 from Penn State University in 1975, but the 

3 nation's economy was suffering from stagnant 

4 inflation and the only opportunities for 

5 employment in his field were Alaska or 

6 Antarctica. 

7 Pat decided to broaden his search for 

8 employment and was able to land a job as an

9 electrician with Penn Power who constructed three 

10 unit coal fired power plants and shipping port. 

11 My brother was able to live and raise his family 

12 here and worked his way into management at the 

13 plant halfway through his career.

14 Pat recently retired from First Energy, 

15 who now owns the plant with over three-and-a-half 

16 decades of service from a good middle class and 

17 community supporting job.

18 I graduated high school in 1977. I have 

19 grown up on a farm, and decided I didn't want to 

20 go to college but work at a location with my 

21 hands. The area's steam industry started to show 

22 signs of stress in the tri-state area, so jobs 

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1 weren't plentiful for my classmates, and me.

2 After two years of replying I was 

3 fortunate enough to be selected by the IBEW for 

4 entry into their four-year apprenticeship 

5 program. My apprenticeship consisted of school 

6 training and working various jobs in steel mills, 

7 power plants, hospitals and commercial jobs.

8 I was finishing my apprenticeship in 

9 1983, however, the end of our steel mill industry 

10 was in sight and many of my high school 

11 classmates who had or were graduating college had 

12 to scatter all across the country to find jobs 

13 and opportunities for work.

14 My mom became concerned because I may 

15 have to join them, but fortunately construction 

16 of a second unit, the Beaver Valley Power Station 

17 Nuclear Power Plant, was underway. The work that 

18 followed over the next half decade allowed 

19 hundreds of my fellow local union members, trade 

20 members and other residents of the region to help 

21 the local businesses and economy weather the 

22 economic void created by the rapidly declining 

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1 steel industry.

2 My mom, who last week celebrated her 87th 

3 birthday, would always thank God for the power 

4 plants, allowing her sons and their families to 

5 stay close to home.

6 Work slowed in our country after the 

7 completion of the plant, but from the late 1980s 

8 to the late 1990s and into the current century, 

9 my fellow members and I were able to find 

10 employment in eastern Ohio, northern West 

11 Virginia and western Pennsylvania due to outages 

12 and pollution control upgrades at coal fired 

13 power plants.

14 Many Local 712 retired members enjoy a 

15 good retirement, thanks to the many hours of work 

16 afforded to them. My neighbor of about 20 years, 

17 Dave Tellish (phonetic), in the late 1980s had 

18 gotten a job with U.S. Air, like some other 

19 residents did after the steel industry had 

20 collapsed.

21 Dave managed to survive numerous 

22 restructuring and bankruptcies by U.S. Air over 

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1 the years, but then 9/11 hit the airline 

2 industry. Pittsburgh lost its status as a hub 

3 airport and Dave was soon to be laid off. 

4 Dave was fortunate enough to have an 

5 opportunity and landed a job at the First Energy 

6 coal fired plant and shipping port and kept his 

7 family in the area. He is a member of utility 

8 IBEW Local Union 272. 

9 The rest of the economy in Beaver County 

10 has continued to decline with many businesses and 

11 plants closing, but the most recent ones being 

12 Armstrong Industries in the Horsehead Zinc Plant, 

13 where my dad worked all his life. 

14 The local coal and nuclear plants have 

15 been a continuous pillar of economic support for 

16 the businesses and local economy for over four 

17 decades during this time of economic turmoil.

18 I sit on the community advisory panel for 

19 businesses in a Route 18 corridor, and discussion 

20 recently from the chemical plants, trucking 

21 company and other businesses have been their 

22 concern over power plants that have closed or are 

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1 talking of closing in the region. They want to 

2 be sure that they have access to plenty of power 

3 at a reasonable pricing structure so that their 

4 plants can maintain competitiveness in a global 

5 economy in which they have to compete.

6 I grew up within six miles of coal and 

7 nuclear plants, and now live with my family 

8 within two miles of those places, downwind of the 

9 site. 

10 Summarizing my comments, they are clearly 

11 about the vital economic opportunity that has 

12 been created by the power plants in the area for 

13 the past and present generations.

14 The agency has an opportunity to tailor 

15 the rules of the proposed Clean Power Plan in a 

16 manner that is realistic and economically 

17 sustainable. I hope the agency develops a 

18 well-crafted energy plan that keeps the present 

19 generation working and provides future 

20 generations economic opportunities by balancing 

21 the needs of working Americans, our economy and 

22 environment.

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1 Thank you for allowing me to present my 

2 input today.

3 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Ms. Goudy?

4 MS. GOUDY: Hello, my name is Nila Goudy, 

5 G-o-u-d-y. My husband, Victor, worked in a coal 

6 mines for nearly 30 years. We raised our family 

7 of three daughters in Sistersville, West 

8 Virginia.

9 Victor worked at Consol Energy's McElroy 

10 Mine in Glen Easton, West Virginia. Unlike many 

11 of the miners who are testifying here today, my 

12 husband never had the opportunity to receive his 

13 pension or retiree healthcare benefits. On 

14 October 19th, 2008 my husband, Victor, was killed 

15 in a mining accident.

16 When Victor left the house that day, like 

17 everyone else, expected to return home at the end 

18 of his shift. But like too many other miners, 

19 Victor never came home.

20 The years since his passing have been 

21 difficult. It's never easy to lose the person 

22 you have spent most of your life with, especially 

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1 in such a tragic way. Nothing can replace the 

2 loss of a loved one. Victor's years of hard work 

3 as a UMWA coal miner, did afford me the 

4 retirement and healthcare benefits he earned 

5 while working in mines.

6 I, like so many other widows of coal 

7 miners, receive a pension, healthcare benefits 

8 from the UMWA Health and Retirement Funds. And 

9 like some other jobs, coal mining is truly a 

10 family endeavor. The good and the bad, the risk 

11 of injury and illness, and the uncertainty of 

12 what can occur weigh not only on the miner but is 

13 always on the mind of his family. 

14 So whether the miner dies in an accident 

15 as my husband did, or passes away from some other 

16 cause, the benefits they earned are rightfully 

17 passed to the widow.

18 As you can imagine, these benefits are 

19 very important to me. They allow me to live in 

20 my home and remain in a community where my 

21 husband and I settled and raised a family. They 

22 offer me the security and retirement that we 

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1 worked for as a mining family. They are what we 

2 have earned for the sacrifices we made.

3 But today I feel while we have played by 

4 the rules and met all the obligations to have 

5 these benefits, the game has been changed. It 

6 seems that someone who never saw the sacrifice or 

7 shared the struggle is determining whether I can 

8 keep my pension and healthcare. This is not how 

9 life is supposed to be. 

10 No one and no government agency should be 

11 permitted to take away what someone has earned, 

12 especially at such a high cost. 

13 There is an immediate and devastating 

14 price that will be paid because of the policy the 

15 EPA is pursuing. Miners, widows and children 

16 will lose the security they have earned by this 

17 risky action that you are about to take. There 

18 is no evidence to support the notion that this 

19 policy will have a positive effect on global 

20 climate change. Nothing indicates that other 

21 more polluting countries will reduce their 

22 emissions. In fact, everything else points to 

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1 the opposite direction.

2 The only thing we can say for certain is 

3 that if this rule is imposed by the EPA, my 

4 benefits will not simply be reduced, they will be 

5 eliminated. Everything Victor worked and 

6 struggled for and ultimately died for will be 

7 gone. No one can see this as a fair trade no 

8 matter who they can be. Thank you. 

9 MR. POWERS: Thank you. The next 

10 speakers are Mel Packer and Jeremy Washington. 

11 And then following them are Eric Ritter and Paul 

12 Cameron.

13 MR. PACKER: My name is Mel Packer, I 

14 live in Pittsburgh. I'm retired from both the 

15 healthcare industry and the truck driving 

16 industry.

17 In 1968 the Mannington Mine in 

18 Farmington, West Virginia owned by Consol coal, 

19 caught fire, blew up and 78 miners were buried 

20 alive.

21 In '72 a Consol mine in Blacksville, West 

22 Virginia caught fire. Nine miners were buried, 

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1 again, likely alive, and Consol sealed the mine 

2 to stop the fire to save the coal. 

3 I remember those well, having been 

4 involved in labor struggles as a working Teamster 

5 truck driver back then with friends in the coal 

6 fields.

7 In the early '70s a militant movement of 

8 rank and file union coal miners called Miners for 

9 Democracy was born, threw out corrupt leaders and 

10 rebuilt a union. It was militant demanded safe 

11 working conditions, knew who the enemy was and 

12 still is the owners of the coal companies.

13 I knew and worked with some of them. I 

14 even worked in the mid '70s to try and persuade 

15 them to revive the MFD that is now dissolved.

16 But at its founding, the MFD knew what it 

17 was about, knew that the coal companies were evil 

18 and knew miners had to stick up for each other as 

19 workers or die.

20 Yesterday, I stood on a sidewalk outside 

21 this building holding a sign calling for reduced 

22 carbon emissions while a few thousand miners and 

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1 family members marched by supporting the same 

2 communities that brutalized and exploited the 

3 communities of Appalachia for decades.

4 We have to ask what happened to make 

5 union coal miners support companies that buried 

6 their ancestors alive, gave most of the survivors 

7 black lung, tried to deny them benefits and laid 

8 them off by the tens of thousands as companies 

9 opened non-union mines and began ruining the 

10 almost heaven hills and valleys of West Virginia 

11 with mountaintop removal, which employs few, if 

12 any, union miners.

13 Why are union miners falling for the 

14 company line that there's a war on coal when the 

15 coal and gas companies are really making a war on 

16 all of us and on our planet, on our children's 

17 futures and certainly on the same miners who 

18 marched yesterday. Because they're scared to 

19 death for the future, that's why.

20 Last year, I traveled through some of the 

21 same mining communities where friends lived and 

22 worked in the early '70s, towns like War and 

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1 Welch, that were once friendly, solid working 

2 class towns, places we'd all be proud to live. 

3 When I was there last year I couldn't 

4 find a pizza shop open on a Sunday and most 

5 businesses were boarded up because miners are 

6 scared.

7 I saw poverty on that trip in those 

8 hidden Appalachian valleys that I've not seen 

9 since the Kennedy-Johnson era and the War on 

10 Poverty days.

11 Miners and their families have a right to 

12 be scared. Why? Not because of the war on coal, 

13 but because the very same coal companies that 

14 funded those protests pulled out of their 

15 communities once the easy-to-get coal was gone, 

16 and went to mountaintop removal, or tar sands 

17 oil, or fracking, left miners and their families 

18 out in the cold, jobless and desperate for easy 

19 answers.

20 I saw anger on the faces of those 

21 marching miners yesterday, but I smelled fear on 

22 every one of them, fear of further social and 

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1 economic devastation, of hungry children with 

2 lousy schools and no way out, of old houses 

3 without money to keep them up, of the addictions 

4 people turn to when they're desperate for relief 

5 from the social pain of unemployment that just 

6 keeps coming every time your kid looks in your 

7 empty pockets for lunch money.

8 Those angry and fearful miners who are 

9 marching aren't stupid, they're as smart as 

10 anybody else in this room, but they're desperate. 

11 They know what's coming about climate change, 

12 looming environmental disasters already too late 

13 to avoid, but they still need to feed their kids. 

14 Those miners and their families have 

15 fueled this nation with their labor and their 

16 lives for countless decades. They, like everyone 

17 else displaced in this Wall Street recover but 

18 working class disaster need good jobs with 

19 dignity, union protection and living wages, jobs 

20 that leave us with a sense of pride at the end of 

21 our shift, knowing we somehow contributed to the 

22 common good, and it ain't going to come from the 

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1 coal companies, not now and not ever.

2 They've used up those miners and their 

3 families and they're spitting them out, while 

4 using the one last time for their own interests. 

5 And so I come to the proposed 

6 regulations, weak as they are, and certainly to 

7 be weaker once Congress gets done working for the 

8 coal companies. But they are still urgently 

9 needed and it should be strengthened before they 

10 even begin getting off our self-destructive path 

11 paid by the fossil fuel industry.

12 But while we debate those rules, we must 

13 also create good jobs for those who will be, 

14 correctly, displaced from the mines.

15 Would anyone here dare tell me that a 

16 laid off miner would not rather have a good clean 

17 union job building solar panels or wind turbines, 

18 that a human being would choose black lung over a 

19 clean environment that allows comfortable 

20 retirement, a job where the roof doesn't fall and 

21 kill you, a job where you might not wind up being 

22 buried alive just to save the coal.

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1 If you can answer yes to those questions, 

2 I'll refer you to a good psychiatrist for a 

3 sanity check.

4 In closing, I urge the EPA to do the same 

5 thing by rewriting your proposed carbon reduction 

6 regulations to not only increase the rate at 

7 which the reductions are achieved, but demand 

8 that Congress provide the funds to put those who 

9 lose coal jobs back to work in fully funded 

10 renewable energy jobs and save the communities 

11 that have been destroyed by the coal companies.

12 Government cannot serve two masters. It 

13 either works for us, the working people, or for 

14 the fossil fuel companies. I know which side I'm 

15 on. How about the EPA? Thank you. 

16 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

17 MR. WASHINGTON: Hi, I'm Jeremy 

18 Washington, speaking on behalf of Donna Eady, 

19 which is E-a-d-y.

20 "To whom it may concern. I'm writing 

21 this letter because I know the pollution levels 

22 in my city are beyond legal requirements. River 

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1 Rouge, Ecourse and SW Detroit make up a third of 

2 the most polluted zip codes in the country."

3 "I also think that Petcoke that was 

4 stored illegally along the Detroit River played a 

5 part in my illness. I suffer from multiple 

6 illnesses, including chronic bronchitis. My body 

7 feels the effect of the pollution around me every

8 day."

9 "Breathing filthy air, drinking 

10 contaminated water, eating tainted vegetables 

11 from my garden all contain pollutants, and are 

12 taking a toll on me and my family."

13 "In the year 2013 I became very ill. I 

14 was rushed to the hospital several times, only to 

15 have multiple tests run on me, finding nothing 

16 and sent back home to suffer. I was admitted 

17 into the hospital three times and never really 

18 got answers as to what was wrong."

19 "I went through a gall bladder operation, 

20 kidney failure, to find out later from the 

21 reports I requested that I had high amounts of 

22 benzene in my system."

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1 "I strongly support the new EPA emission 

2 standard for power plants and the proposed new 

3 emission standard for refineries. I would 

4 encourage you to hold a hearing on the latter in 

5 Detroit. Please allow us to tell you how the 

6 environment we live in has affected our lives."

7 "It is time to put a stop to the blatant 

8 disregard for our citizens' health. My 

9 grandfather died from lung disease. My mother 

10 suffers from lung disease and asthma runs deep in 

11 the entire family generations."

12 "I know that my children have been 

13 affected as well, but it is not too late for 

14 them. We depend on you to maintain the highest 

15 standards for air and water to protect the public 

16 health. Sincerely, Donna Eady."

17 MR. POWERS: Thank you. The next two 

18 speakers are Eric Ritter and Paul Cameron.

19 MR. RITTER: Good morning.

20 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

21 MR. CAMERON: Good morning. Paul 

22 Cameron.

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1 MR. RITTER: Hi. My name is Eric Ritter. 

2 I am the communications and strategy manager for 

3 a non-profit organization called the Lake Erie 

4 Energy Development Corporation or LEEDCO for 

5 short. We're based in Cleveland, Ohio, and we 

6 have a mission of building the offshore wind 

7 power industry in the Great Lakes Region. 

8 We are a public, private partnership that 

9 was founded by four lake front counties in Ohio, 

10 Lorain, Lake, Cuyahoga and Ashtabula Counties, as 

11 well as the City of Cleveland. And our private 

12 partner is the Cleveland Foundation and Nortech.

13 I'm truly pleased to be able to be here 

14 today and for this opportunity to say on behalf 

15 of LEEDCO that we are very supportive of the 

16 EPA's Clean Power Plan. And as a non-profit 

17 organization dedicated to building this offshore 

18 wind industry in the Great Lakes, I think we have 

19 a unique perspective to add to this conversation.

20 A couple points that I just want to make. 

21 First off, we really support this because it is a 

22 first step toward correcting a really major 

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1 market failure, and it will help to put clean 

2 energy industries, nascent clean energy 

3 industries like offshore wind, on an even playing 

4 field so that we can compete with more 

5 traditional energy sources.

6 Power plants have been allowed to spew 

7 unlimited amounts of carbon dioxide into the 

8 atmosphere forever, and this has real social and 

9 environmental consequences on society. These are 

10 costs that are externalized and it makes it 

11 difficult for new industries like the offshore 

12 wind industry to compete, and this Clean Power 

13 Plan is an important first step toward correcting 

14 that market failure.

15 The second point that I want to make is 

16 that for the Great Lakes Region, offshore wind 

17 represents a really excellent opportunity for us 

18 to meet some of the goals laid out in the Clean 

19 Power Plan.

20 The Great Lakes Region is the most coal 

21 dependent coastal region in the country, and as 

22 pressures on coal increase, we're going to need 

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1 to have new generation sources that can reach a 

2 significant scale. 

3 And National Renewable Energy Lab 

4 estimate is that the Great Lakes hold over 700 

5 gigawatts of electric generating capacity. 

6 That's about 20 percent of the entire U.S. 

7 capacity. So there's a lot of potential here.

8 And the final point that I want to make 

9 is that as new clean energy industries like 

10 offshore wind emerge, it's going to create a lot 

11 of good jobs that people that are currently 

12 working in coal fired power plants will be able 

13 to transition to. And LEEDCO is a non-profit 

14 organization that's really dedicated to help 

15 support that transition.

16 Our first endeavor to make this project 

17 -- to make this vision become a reality is 

18 initial demonstration project called Ice Breaker. 

19 It will consist of six wind turbines that we're 

20 building about seven to nine miles outside of 

21 downtown Cleveland. 

22 We're working to involve as many local 

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1 companies as we possibly can. We've involved a 

2 lot of local unions. We're helping to develop 

3 the work force to be able to maximize the local 

4 content as we develop this industry.

5 And then the vision is to use this first 

6 demonstration project as a test bed to inform 

7 best practices for future projects so that we can 

8 compete with more traditional energy sources, and 

9 this Clean Power Plan is an important part of 

10 making sure that this vision becomes a reality.

11 So I thank you for this opportunity to 

12 submit this comment.

13 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Just 

14 out of curiosity, how big are the six turbines?

15 MR. RITTER: They'll be three megawatt 

16 machines, three megawatts each. So it's an 18 

17 megawatt project in total. Small scale pilot 

18 project, again, really just intended to be a 

19 first step toward building the industry, test out 

20 some engineering innovations that solve the 

21 unique challenges of doing offshore wind in the 

22 Great Lakes, most importantly, the ice challenges 

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1 and the soil challenges, and we're creating those 

2 innovations and testing them, and be able to 

3 deploy them at a larger scale on large utility 

4 scale projects in the future, particularly in 

5 Lake Erie, but really all throughout the Great 

6 Lakes.

7 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

8 COURT REPORTER: Could you spell your last 

9 name?

10 MR. RITTER: Oh, it's Eric Ritter, 

11 R-i-t-t-e-r.

12 MR. POWERS: Mr. Cameron?

13 MR. CAMERON: Good morning. Good morning 

14 and thank you for the opportunity to speak 

15 concerning the proposed Clean Power Plan. My 

16 name is Paul Cameron. I'm the business manager 

17 of Local 459 of the International Brotherhood of 

18 Electrical Workers located in Johnstown, 

19 Pennsylvania.

20 I am here to speak on behalf of the 2,000 

21 members I represent and the jobs they have earned 

22 through hard work and dedication to an industry 

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1 that provides safe and reliable energy to our 

2 areas and beyond.

3 I am here today because our members are 

4 concerned about the possible loss of the family 

5 sustaining jobs due to the EPA's Proposed Clean 

6 Power Plan. 

7 The EPA's proposal for Clean Power Plan 

8 will not only eliminate more than 150,000 family 

9 and community sustaining jobs, but it will also 

10 have minimal effect on global greenhouse 

11 emissions as a whole.

12 We cannot support such a proposal that 

13 will directly have the devastating effect to so 

14 many of our members whom Local 459 represents.

15 Recognizing the minimal overall impact 

16 predicted by the IBEW, this rule will accomplish 

17 to our global environment, I speak on behalf of 

18 the members when we respectfully ask for the EPA 

19 to look at the devastating consequences in the 

20 local communities that will be in dire need of 

21 assistance soon after the closure of these 

22 generating plants.

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1 Dozens of local 459 members are second 

2 generation workers who, like their forefathers, 

3 are relying on the good wages and benefits earned 

4 for performing the maintenance and operation 

5 responsibilities to keep a reliable, 

6 non-interrupted power flow of electricity to the 

7 homes and businesses throughout the northeast.

8 These second generation of power plant 

9 workers, like their parents before them, live in 

10 the same communities where they are also raising 

11 and educating their children, and supporting the 

12 local economy by buying automobiles from local 

13 dealerships, supporting the local shopping 

14 centers and restaurants, paying the local taxes, 

15 attending school functions and the list goes on 

16 and on.

17 The EPA will end the way of life as these 

18 people have known it for generations. The 

19 families, local businesses and communities are 

20 the big losers with this proposal. The power 

21 plant work force is one part of those who will be 

22 impacted.

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1 The Homer City Plant, alone, generates 

2 its electricity from nearly all Pennsylvania 

3 mined coal. Again, generation after generation 

4 of coal miners and the communities they live in 

5 will be decimated.

6 I would like to tell you a story about 

7 Giuseppe Cameroni. Joseph, as he was known, was 

8 19 years old when he immigrated from Italy in 

9 1889 and started working in the Pennsylvania coal 

10 fields.

11 After completing sixth grades of 

12 education, his son, Luis Hall Cameroni, went to 

13 work in the mines like his father. Like my great 

14 grandfather and my grandfather, Joseph and Luis 

15 Cameroni, my livelihood also relies on coal. 

16 This industry has provided a variety of 

17 life-sustaining American dream type jobs needed 

18 and has made this company a land of -- this 

19 country a land of opportunity for millions just 

20 like my great grandfather, Giuseppe Cameroni. 

21 The American dream realized by my great 

22 grandfather still lives four generations later 

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1 through me.

2 Finding winners with a proposal this 

3 drastic is very challenging. I ask that the EPA 

4 reconsider and give technology time to find a 

5 feasible solution that works for all. 

6 In a time when a family sustaining job is 

7 so rare, and on behalf of my 2,000 members, I ask 

8 that you please consider the overwhelming fallout 

9 this will create to them any communities, tax 

10 basis relying on the income these jobs provide, 

11 from the railroad workers, the trade unions, the 

12 truck drivers who deliver the nearly 3,000 

13 deliveries a day, the local police forces that 

14 protects and serves, the police departments and 

15 the rescue workers and all the countless shops 

16 and restaurants.

17 It is too soon to pull the plug on the 

18 coal industry in our country. The labor force 

19 that has been providing decades of safe and 

20 reliable electricity for generations deserves 

21 better, and so do our families. Thank you for 

22 your time.

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1 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

2 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your last 

3 name?

4 MR. CAMERON: Cameron, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

5 MR. POWERS: The next two speakers are 

6 Timothy Barr and Doug Hunt, and then we're going 

7 to take a five or ten minute break.

8 MR. BARR: My name is Timothy Barr, and I 

9 am an unaffiliated citizen. Gathered here 

10 together as a city and as a nation, we have to 

11 make a choice between two kinds of invisibility. 

12 The first kind of invisibility is what we have 

13 right now, is the invisibility of injustice. We 

14 know because of our best minds and our science, 

15 what carbon emissions are going to do in 

16 relationship to climate change, but we cannot see 

17 the carbon that is being emitted that is in our 

18 air right now. We will see the effects, however. 

19 You will see the effects of hurricanes 

20 that will have names, but the victims will remain 

21 nameless. We will see the effects of droughts 

22 that will devastate our farmers, and they will 

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1 struggle with the pain, alone. We will see the 

2 effects of ozone and particulate matter on 

3 children who can no longer breath easily because 

4 they have developed asthma and respiratory 

5 syndromes. 

6 But if we allow injustice to remain 

7 invisible, when we cry for justice against all of 

8 these concerns, the realities that have caused 

9 them will no longer be able to be changed and the 

10 time for justice will have passed. 

11 This is what we will choose if we ignore 

12 the science that has been produced, and this is 

13 the invisibility that I stand against today. 

14 But there is another kind of invisibility 

15 that we can choose. It is the invisibility of 

16 justice. Because if we -- if the EPA does choose 

17 to go forward with this plan, and we have the 

18 support of the public, there will be many people 

19 involved in this action who will also remain 

20 nameless. We will have those who you have 

21 already heard testify today. Coal miners and 

22 their families, who will have to make sacrifices.

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1 We will have the regulators who will have 

2 to be diligent. We will have the coal companies 

3 who also will have to make sacrifices, and the 

4 entire nation who potentially will have to pay 

5 more for energy in the short term, but we know 

6 that we will save in the long term.

7 But this kind of invisibility is what 

8 make actions noble. Because in the future our 

9 children will live in a better world. It means 

10 that they won't know who to thank. It means that 

11 we will not get rewarded for what we choose to do 

12 today. 

13 But this kind of invisibility of doing 

14 what is the right thing to do, even when no one 

15 will recognize it in the future, is what makes 

16 America great. We should choose the invisibility 

17 of justice over the invisibility of injustice, 

18 not only for our future but for who we are as a 

19 nation. Thank you very much. 

20 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

21 MR. HUNT: Good morning. My name is 

22 Reverend Douglas Hunt. I'm ordained clergy and 

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1 serving as Vice-President of Pennsylvania 

2 Interfaith Power and Light.

3 IPL is a national organization connecting 

4 over 30,000 congregations through 39 state 

5 affiliates working with people of all faiths and 

6 spiritual paths to meet the growing threat of 

7 global warming.

8 I commend the Environmental Protection 

9 Agency for their proposal for reducing carbon 

10 dioxide and other harmful emissions from existing 

11 power plants, and urge its implementation as soon 

12 as possible.

13 I have two granddaughters, Rachel and 

14 Guenevere. They, and all children, should be 

15 able to live and grow in a world that is diverse 

16 and beautiful, can nurture their spirits, fill 

17 them with wonder, awe and a sense of connection 

18 with all creation.

19 Considering the hours you have already 

20 spent in these rooms, I am sure that you have 

21 heard many speakers far more qualified than I 

22 tell you that over 97 percent of active climate 

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1 scientists affirm the reality of global warming 

2 and its current and potential long term impacts.

3 In addition to the love and concern I 

4 have for children and all that lives on our 

5 garden planet, it is clear to me that doing all 

6 that I can to reduce the threats from climate 

7 change is an urgent, moral and existential 

8 responsibility.

9 Reducing our contribution to climate 

10 change is a moral issue, because it is an issue 

11 of justice, written very large. The United 

12 Nations estimated last year that there are 

13 already at least 100 million climate refugees 

14 around the world.

15 As usual, the worst impacts of global 

16 climate change are affecting first and most 

17 dramatically people living in poverty, women and 

18 children here and around the world? It is 

19 monumentally unjust that those who have done the 

20 least to create the climate crisis are affected 

21 the most immediately and directly by 

22 consequences.

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1 Effectively addressing the underlying 

2 causes of climate change is also an existential 

3 necessity. Our changing climate is a current 

4 crisis, threatening all living things on the 

5 planet.

6 We must respond now to the crisis and its 

7 consequences. Increasing temperature extremes, 

8 strong storms, drought, floods are already 

9 playing a major role in devastating homes and 

10 families.

11 Our changing climate has become more 

12 unpredictable and more deadly. In a dramatically 

13 warmed and not too distant future, the 

14 intensified and more frequent events would play a 

15 greater role in determining how people live. And 

16 increasingly who will live and who will die.

17 This is an existential question. We need 

18 only remember Katrina, Sandy, our current 

19 droughts in the southwest, floods on the east 

20 coast, forest fires throughout the west that have 

21 shown the fingerprints of global warming.

22 I could go on circling the planet in 

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1 naming events and catastrophes where people have 

2 suffered dramatic impacts. 

3 As Bishop Desmond Tutu told the leaders 

4 of the Canadian Government, only those who don't 

5 want to listen, only those who want to be blind 

6 can't see that we are sitting on a powder keg. 

7 If we don't do something urgently and quickly, we 

8 won't have a world. Climate change is, indeed, 

9 and existential issue. 

10 I want to mention that for a part of my 

11 struggle through life, I did work at the 

12 University of Tennessee in the Agricultural 

13 Economics Department, and I am convinced that it 

14 is possible to transition workers to good jobs 

15 and out of an industry that is suffering.

16 The University of Tennessee, Agriculture 

17 Department did the transition plan for tobacco 

18 workers. Tobacco workers all over the southeast 

19 were literally put out of work. They lost their 

20 farms. They lost their livelihoods and the 

21 communities lost a source of income.

22 But that project was successful because 

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1 it was well planned. It had community, industry 

2 and government support and virtually all -- I 

3 think it was 96 percent of the displaced workers 

4 and farm owners were able to be reoriented to a 

5 new lifestyle and a standard of living.

6 So I guess I should quit. The timer has 

7 gone off. But I do know that such transitions 

8 are possible, and I, too, am concerned about 

9 workers and their future. I just encourage you 

10 to move as quickly as possible, much more quickly 

11 than the five years it has taken to get to the 

12 coal ash regulation, having testified at both 

13 Charlotte and Knoxville on that tragedy. Thank 

14 you so much for the opportunity --

15 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

16 We'll now take a short break. It is 

17 10:23 -- I'll call it 10:24 on my watch. Why 

18 don't we start again at 25 till 11:00, so that's 

19 about an 11 minute break.

20 [Recess from 10:24 to 10:35 a.m.]

21 MR. POWERS: I think we'll reopen the 

22 hearing. We have the next panel will be Dorcas 

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1 Evans-Miller and Deb Eutsler. And on deck behind 

2 them are Jeff Kelley, Don Vickers and Denise 

3 Garrett.

4 So let me call up Dorcas Evans-Miller and 

5 Deb Eutsler.

6 MS. EVANS-MILLER: Good morning.

7 MR. POWERS: Good morning.

8 MS. EVANS-MILLER: My name is Dorcas 

9 Evans-Miller and I'm reading for Jane Hovde from 

10 Haverford, PA. She could not be here.

11 COURT REPORTER: Could you spell the 

12 names?

13 MS. EVANS-MILLER: My name or her name?

14 COURT REPORTER: Both.

15 MS. EVANS-MILLER: My name is 

16 D-o-r-c-a-s, Dorcaas, Evans, E-v-a-n-s hyphen 

17 Miller, M-i-l-l-e-r. And the person I'm 

18 reading for is Jane, J-a-n-e, Hovde, H-o-v-d-e.

19 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 

20 MS. EVANS-MILLER: Is that it? From 

21 Haverford, PA.

22 And she represents the Delco Action 

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1 Seniors, affiliated with the Pennsylvania 

2 Alliance for Retired Americans.

3 "As grandmothers and grandfathers, we are 

4 proudly concerned with the future welfare of our 

5 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. We 

6 believe the vast majority of the world scientists 

7 when they tell us that we are already 

8 experiencing serious consequences from climate 

9 change, and that industrial carbon emissions 

10 affect the pace and scope of that change."

11 "Carbon pollution also produces an 

12 increase in respiratory and asthma related 

13 conditions. We, therefore, support whole 

14 heartedly the EPA's current proposals for 

15 limiting carbon emissions. They are both 

16 reasonable and long overdue."

17 "If implemented, they will help greatly 

18 to ensure that our descendants and the world's 

19 descendants will live in a healthier and more 

20 stable world." 

21 "Living as we do in Pennsylvania, we are 

22 sensitive to those who worry about the economic 

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1 impact of the proposed regulations. We believe, 

2 however, that new jobs in a growing environmental 

3 industry of conservation and alternative fuels 

4 will more than offset losses due to any of the 

5 EPA's regulations."

6 "In our view, the EPA carbon emission 

7 proposals are critically important and should be 

8 implemented with all possible speed." Thank you. 

9 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

10 MS. EUTSLER: Hi. My name is Deb 

11 Eutsler, D-e-b, E-u-t-s-l-e-r, and I'm speaking 

12 today for Cherie Eichholz, C-h-e-r-i-e, 

13 E-i-c-h-h-o-l-z.

14 MR. POWERS: Yes, please proceed.

15 MS. EUTSLER: "My name is Cherie 

16 Eichholtz. I'm the Executive Director of the 

17 Philadelphia Chapter of Physicians for Social 

18 Responsibility."

19 "Physicians for Social Responsibility is 

20 a national non-profit organization which includes 

21 nearly 35,000 physicians, nurses and other health 

22 professionals. Our Philadelphia Chapter 

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1 represents the medical and public health 

2 community that advocates policies and practices 

3 aimed at preventing violence and addressing 

4 environmental threats to health."

5 "As a long-time advocate of policies to 

6 protect the environment in Philadelphia and on 

7 the west coast, I have organized health 

8 professionals to increase awareness of threats to 

9 health that medicine cannot cure."

10 "Unfortunately, we live in an era where 

11 these threats are not only part of our daily 

12 life, but they run rampant and constantly impact 

13 how we live."

14 "Today I am here on behalf of thousands 

15 of Philadelphia area health professionals to 

16 support passage of the EPA's new rules concerning 

17 reducing carbon emissions from power plants. 

18 Seeking to reduce our nation's overall carbon 

19 footprint by 30 percent within the next 15 years, 

20 the proposal Clean Power Plan represents a 

21 realistic and achievable plan that will 

22 positively affect our health and that of future 

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1 generations."

2 "As the EPA well knows, Pennsylvania is 

3 one of the United States leading suppliers of 

4 fossil fuel emissions, and as a recent Physicans 

5 for Social Responsibility report finds, coal 

6 pollutants have been linked to four of the five 

7 leading causes of death in our nation, including 

8 cancer, stroke, heart disease and chronic lower 

9 respiratory disease."

10 "Therefore, as health representatives of 

11 the most populous Pennsylvania city, we feel 

12 especially compelled to make sure the EPA knows 

13 we feel strongly about these new rules. And 

14 while we would certainly prefer that guarantees 

15 for nuclear power were eliminated, as anything 

16 nuclear represents yet another threat to health, 

17 we, again, believe this proposal is a solid step 

18 forward."

19 "In addition to my coming to you as a PSR 

20 representative, I am also here as a concerned 

21 spouse. My husband, Frank, struggles daily with 

22 chronic asthma. His day beings with the use of 

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1 three different inhalers, followed by half an 

2 hour or more of hacking, coughing and gagging, 

3 and then throughout the day the effects of his 

4 asthma come and go, frequently depending upon the 

5 air quality of where we find ourselves."

6 "It is not uncommon for Frank to find it 

7 extremely difficult to simply breath, and his 

8 asthma is often triggered by seemingly innoxious 

9 changes in the environment."

10 "As his wife, I watch him gag and choke 

11 and gasp for air, and I am personally and 

12 poignantly aware of the ways our warming and 

13 changing environment affect his breathing."

14 "And while Frank thoroughly enjoys hot 

15 summers, I know and we know that the earth's 

16 temperature is rising and this increase will only 

17 have further devastating effects on him, on us 

18 and on the future global community."

19 "Frank is hardly alone in his daily 

20 struggles. In Philadelphia 25 percent of kids 

21 suffer from asthma. That means one in five kids 

22 is wheezing and coughing and gasping for air 

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1 every single day. And on days when weather is 

2 extreme, their struggle is that much worse."

3 "It is simply not right that he and, 

4 indeed, all Americans, and all of humanity are at 

5 risk as the quality of our environment declines. 

6 For decades the energy industry has forced its 

7 risky, unhealthy and virtually unchecked 

8 practices down America's throats as increasingly 

9 larger targets of fossil fuels are dumped into or 

10 atmosphere. It is long past time for this 

11 insanity to end. The EPA, the federal government 

12 and our state and local governments are 

13 responsible for protecting human health from a 

14 plethora of threats, including those borne in our 

15 environment."

16 "As a representative of thousands of 

17 Philadelphia area health professionals, as a 

18 concerned wife and as someone who sincerely cares 

19 about the legacy we leave for future generations, 

20 I urge the EPA to move forward with these rules 

21 in order to protect human and environmental 

22 health from the real and persistent threats 

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1 climate change poses." Thank you. 

2 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Next 

3 will be Jeff Kelley and Don Vickers.

4 MR. KELLEY: My name is Jeff Kelley, 

5 spelled J-e-f-f, K-e-l-l-e-y. Good morning, my 

6 name is Jeff Kelley. I am President and General 

7 Manager of Vindex Energy Corporation, a 

8 subsidiary of Arch Coal. Vindex and Arch 

9 appreciates the opportunity to share publicly the 

10 following comments in response to the EPA's 

11 proposed emission guidelines for states to 

12 follow:

13 Vindex Energy operates surface and deep 

14 coal mines in the Allegany and Garrett County, 

15 Maryland and Grant County, West Virginia. We 

16 produce in excess of 600,000 tons of coal a year 

17 to supply local power generators, which in turn 

18 supplies electricity for the eastern United 

19 States.

20 Vindex employs approximately 95 full time 

21 employees with an annual payroll, including 

22 benefits of 9.2 million dollars. 

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1 The power generator's transformation of 

2 our coal and that of other suppliers into low 

3 cost stable fuel of electricity is a virtual 

4 national service that is now in jeopardy due to 

5 EPA's proposed regulations. The United States'

6 success since the industrial revolution has been 

7 due mainly to the abundance of cheap, affordable 

8 power to supply our factories, businesses and 

9 homes. In large part this has come from coal.

10 EPA's Proposal threatens continued 

11 domestic coal utilization in the hopes of 

12 preventing global climate change, but will not 

13 meaningfully or economically determine -- deliver 

14 on this objective.

15 U.S. power plants are responsible for a 

16 relatively small percentage of global greenhouse 

17 gas emissions, about four percent. EPA's 

18 proposal will reduce global greenhouse emissions 

19 by a tiny amount, less than one percent, at a 

20 cost projected by the Agency, itself, of 4.2 to 

21 8.8 billion dollars per year in exchange for 

22 reducing coal utilization for power generation, 

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1 American consumers, my family and I will receive 

2 rising electric prices and reduced electric power 

3 reliability.

4 The EPA estimates that this rule will 

5 increase electric prices between six and seven 

6 percent nationally by 2020. This increase masks 

7 substantial higher increases in some states, 

8 including my own, West Virginia, that generates 

9 most of its electrical power, 95 percent, from 

10 coal. 

11 Rate increases will fall 

12 disproportionately on lower income and middle 

13 income families. Since 2001, energy costs have 

14 increased by 27 percent from middle and lower 

15 income families, while their incomes have 

16 declined by 22 percent. The increase also places 

17 a significant burden on U.S. businesses for which 

18 affordable electricity provides a critical 

19 operating advantage in competitive global 

20 markets. 

21 Also, power plants are only a first step 

22 of the EPA's broader greenhouse agenda. New 

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1 rules restricting emissions from landfills, 

2 refineries, pulp and paper mills, iron and steel 

3 production, livestock operation, and cement 

4 manufacturing will follow. Lastly, the price of 

5 all goods and services will increase, further 

6 harming all Americans.

7 Power supply in the U.S. is reliable 

8 because of adequate non-intermittent baseload 

9 generating capacity. The primary fuel powering 

10 this generation is coal. It is sourced by U.S. 

11 power generators, predominantly from domestic 

12 supply sources which have limited domestic and 

13 foreign markets. 

14 If utilities are forced to comply with 

15 the EPA's proposal as they stand, compliance 

16 costs as high as 28 billion dollars a year, job 

17 losses of up to four million American jobs and 

18 the forced shutdown of over half of the U.S. coal 

19 fired plants will occur.

20 Since 2005, American power plants have 

21 reduced CO2 emissions by 21 percent, and are 

22 projected to remain 19 percent below 2005 levels 

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1 through 2020. It must be noted that CO2 

2 emissions from U.S. power plants represent only 

3 four percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. 

4 No matter how stringent the EPA approach, 

5 the climate effects will be meaningless, but the 

6 costs will be very high.

7 An example of the true reduction, if all 

8 U.S. fired power plants were eliminated today, 

9 the global temperature change through 2050 would 

10 be reduced by less than one-twentieth of a 

11 degree, and the reduction of sea level rise would 

12 be less than one-twenty-fifth of an inch, which 

13 is less than the thickness of a dime.

14 Many other countries continue to increase 

15 their use of coal, while the EPA is taking 

16 unilateral action that penalizes the U.S. 

17 economy. The U.S. has led the world in reduction 

18 of CO2 emissions since 2005. During that time, 

19 U.S. emissions have fallen while China has 

20 increased by 69 percent and India about 53 

21 percent.

22 Emission growth in China and India count 

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1 for 90 percent of the growth in emissions for 

2 2005 through 2012. In summary, the EPA's 

3 proposal neglectably reduces greenhouse emissions 

4 and poses higher electric costs on the U.S. 

5 household, and economy, and industry, reduces the 

6 reliability of the power grid and neither is 

7 permissible under existing law or technically 

8 feasible. 

9 For those reasons, Arch Coal respectfully 

10 requests that the Agency withdraw its proposal. 

11 Thank you for your time and attention. 

12 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Mr. Vickers?

13 MR. VICKERS: Don Vickers, D-o-n, 

14 V-i-c-k-e-r-s.

15 Good morning, I am Don Vickers, Regional 

16 Vice-President of Northern Appalachian Operations 

17 of Arch Coal. Our company is one of the world's 

18 largest coal producers, selling 131 million tons 

19 in 2013, which represents about 14 percent of the 

20 total U.S. coal supply.

21 Arch Coal operates mines in Wyoming, 

22 Colorado, Illinois, Kentucky, Virginia, Maryland 

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1 and West Virginia, covering each of the major 

2 coal producing regions of the United States.

3 I wish to comment on three of the reasons 

4 why the Clean Power Plan as proposed by EPA is 

5 flawed. These reasons are number, no discernable 

6 climate impact. U.S. power plants are 

7 responsible for only four percent of global 

8 greenhouse gas emissions, and EPA's proposal will 

9 reduce these emissions by less than a percent.

10 If the United States totally eliminated 

11 coal fired power plants by 2017, the result would 

12 be a one percent reduction in the atmospheric 

13 carbon dioxide concentrations and a one-fiftieth 

14 of one degree in warming in the year 2050.

15 My second reason, costly economic impact. 

16 The EPA estimated the cost for carbon regulation 

17 to be between 4.2 billion and 8.8 billion dollars 

18 per year. In exchange for reducing coal 

19 utilization for power generation, the American 

20 consumer will have to suffer rising electricity 

21 prices and reduced electric grid reliability.

22 UPA estimates that it's proposal will 

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1 increase electricity prices between six and seven 

2 percent nationally in 2020. While the nationwide 

3 average increase looks relatively small, it masks 

4 substantially higher increases in individual 

5 states.

6 These increases will fall 

7 disproportionately on middle class and lower 

8 income families that can least afford it. The 

9 increases will also place an immense burden on 

10 U.S. businesses, which employ those Americans, 

11 businesses which depend on affordable law 

12 enforcement energy to provide a critical 

13 operating advantage in competitive global 

14 markets.

15 My third reason I want to comment on. 

16 Threat to low cost reliable power. Power 

17 generators transform our abundant, affordable and 

18 reliable coal into a low cost stable flow of 

19 electricity on which the United States economy 

20 has been built, and economy that will be 

21 jeopardized by EPA's proposal.

22 This proposal increases the share of 

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1 electricity generated from natural gas, which has 

2 a variety of alternative markets outside of power 

3 generation. Natural gas is delivered to power 

4 plants via pipeline systems on a just-in-time 

5 basis. And as witnessed during this past severe 

6 winter, delivery on particularly cold days can be 

7 constrained.

8 In short, a dramatic move away from coal 

9 threatens the reliability of the electricity 

10 power system. In addition, the rapid retirement 

11 of coal fueled plants will further strain 

12 reliable baseload power availability. The mid 

13 continental independent systems operator, which 

14 operates in the middle of the country, reports 

15 that it already faces a generation shortfall due 

16 to previous EPA rulings. 

17 Federal Energy Regulatory Commissioner 

18 Muller concluded that the electricity sector is 

19 now living on the edge. If we have a hot summer 

20 in 2016, he's predicting rolling blackouts in the 

21 mid-continental independent systems operator 

22 area, the middle of the country.

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1 So in summary, the EPA's proposal has no 

2 effective impact on reducing greenhouse 

3 emissions. It imposes higher cost of electricity 

4 to U.S. households and industry, and reduced the 

5 reliability of the grid. 

6 So for these reasons and others that I 

7 did not have time to cover in my five minutes, 

8 quite respectfully requests that the Agency 

9 withdraw its proposed plan. Thank you for your 

10 time and attention.

11 MR. POWERS: Thank you. The next two 

12 speakers are Denise Garrott and Sister Donna 

13 Zwigart.

14 MS. GARROTT: I'm Denise Garrett. 

15 D-e-n-i-s-e, G-a-r-r-o-t-t. Thanks for the 

16 opportunity to express my concerns.

17 America's primary goal must be abundant 

18 clean air, drinkable water, fertile soil, safe 

19 public health and curtailing climate change. 

20 Using coal to power a turbine designed over 150 

21 years ago, running with 30 percent efficiency is 

22 not smart, safe, or sane.

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1 Power plants are the biggest source of 

2 carbon pollution driving climate change, and 60 

3 percent of that coal just goes up in smoke, 

4 raining down particulates, heavy metals, arsenic, 

5 cyanide, mercury and creating mountains of toxic 

6 ash.

7 America is leading the world over in 

8 production of destructive carbon. We pollute 

9 more than countries with billions more in 

10 population. American ranks 13 out of 16 

11 developed nations in energy efficiency. What a 

12 waste. 

13 Power plants are causing climate change 

14 that disturbs the jet stream. Sunbathing in 

15 Alaska, frigid cold in Pennsylvania, snow in 

16 Egypt, deadly drought in Syria, frightening civil 

17 unrest results. Violent ferocious storms 

18 encircle the globe. 

19 In America, because of climate change, we 

20 already spent billions on super storms Katrina 

21 and Sandy. Drought and weather extremes tally 

22 way over 376 billion dollars in extreme weather 

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1 costs, even 30 billion dollars in lost bee 

2 pollination.

3 California, which produces 60 percent of 

4 our vegetables, fruits and nuts suffers from the 

5 worst extreme drought in 400 years. Today, way 

6 over half of California is suffering from the 

7 most extreme drought that's ever been seen there, 

8 and that's where our food comes from. 

9 Fighting fires in drought zones cost 

10 billions more. American cannot afford climate 

11 change. What are the global costs of this 

12 negligent misuse? What does America's coal 

13 extraction and burning cost the rest of the 

14 world. Our willful ignorance prevails. 

15 Scientists and environmentalist know 

16 better. We have to change our energy source from 

17 fossil fuels to renewables and head toward a 

18 healthy planet.

19 Regulating coal is not a war on coal 

20 miners. Coal mine owners have subjected their 

21 miners to unhealthy conditions, denied them black 

22 lung benefits and cut fair job opportunities. 

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1 Those miners can join 120,000 existing solar 

2 energy workers. Miners can install wind 

3 generators on the few mountaintops unspoiled by 

4 cannibalistic coal removal.

5 A solar or wind spill will not leave us 

6 with decades of pollution. Fossil fuels can 

7 remain in the earth for free. American can make 

8 our environment our economy and employee every 

9 miner while doing it.

10 I live in a sacrifice zone from Marcellus 

11 Shale drilling, wondering how that gas could be 

12 used for energy independence d LNG export. Or 

13 for security while poisoning the water, air and 

14 land. They're making a killing on Marcellus 

15 shale drilling and building an LNG plant in a 

16 coastal flood zone, costing billions of dollars 

17 that will add to global carbon pollution so they 

18 can liquefy it for export is not a sane plan.

19 This LNG export plan would add untold 

20 costs to America and fuel global climate change. 

21 I hope this EPA carbon energy plan is the 

22 beginning of ending this fossil fueled nightmare. 

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1 Thank you, EPA, but please do not leave 

2 the decisions up to our Pennsylvania legislature 

3 or DEP. They already have voted to block funding 

4 for renewable energy to gag doctors, to promote 

5 drillers, do away with endangered species and 

6 prevent environmental protection in violation of 

7 the state constitution.

8 Instead, let's look ahead to a healthy 

9 planet with EPA in the lead, protecting food and 

10 water sources. It's already the number one goal 

11 of most other developed countries. Germany has 

12 gone solar. Denmark relies on wind. Many 

13 African countries are way ahead of us. They 

14 skipped land lines for phones and electricity, 

15 cutting infrastructure and maintenance costs. 

16 Africa, many parts of it have five times higher 

17 internet speed. What's holding America back?

18 Earth cannot afford climate change. 

19 There's overwhelming public support for climate 

20 change action. Make a healthy environment the 

21 economy.

22 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

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1 MS. ZWIGART: My name is Sister Donna, 

2 D-o double n, a, Zwigart, Z, the last letter in 

3 the alphabet, w, like in William, i, g, like in 

4 George, a-r-t.

5 I am a Sister of the Sisters of St. 

6 Francis of the Neumann Communities, whose 452 

7 members minister mainly in the United States. We 

8 also have missions in Africa and in Peru.

9 I want to extend my gratitude to you for 

10 eliciting comments from the citizens on the 

11 proposed regulations for existing coal fired 

12 power plants. 

13 As you may know, St. Francis was declared 

14 the Patron of Ecology by the U.N. about 35 years 

15 ago. You may not know that. So I feel kind of 

16 qualified as a Franciscan to make my testimony 

17 here today.

18 St. Francis was not about bird baths and 

19 gardens. His insights were about relationships. 

20 We are all brothers and sisters in this kindom of 

21 earth. Note I said kindom, k-i-n.

22 We are brothers and sisters' keepers as 

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1 part of the family of all creation. We are kin, 

2 so whatever affects or harms our kin is of great 

3 concern to us. If the air we breathe is 

4 polluted, the all of earth's family is hampered 

5 and cannot be healthy. We have seen evidence of 

6 this in our Pittsburgh region. 

7 We have one of the highest cases of lung 

8 cancer, COPD and asthma, especially in our 

9 children. Our pollution level is one of the 

10 highest in the United States.

11 We Franciscans affirm and endorse the 

12 proposed EPA's clean air regulations for exiting 

13 coal fired power plants as this action will help 

14 to drive down the carbon emissions.

15 If we take note, where many of the local 

16 coal fired power plants reside is in the low 

17 income neighborhoods. Poor people -- and as 

18 Franciscans we have a mission to work for the 

19 poor -- and communities suffer the worst of the 

20 consequences of climate change in epic flooding, 

21 prolonged droughts and heat waves. 

22 Our economy is also affected with loss of 

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1 jobs and increased medical costs in destruction 

2 of our planet. Our kin are suffering. They need 

3 to migrate to places throughout the world but can 

4 find none. Studies have shown that the victims 

5 of climate change provide an escalation of human 

6 trafficking, and these are our kin.

7 I would ask the EPA to also include in 

8 their legislative ways to help our kin who are 

9 losing their jobs by providing education for new 

10 technological employment for them. Give our 

11 bright minds the incentives to discover new ways 

12 to solve our energy problems. Future generations 

13 are at risk in a climate altered planet.

14 Do we care for our children, for our 

15 grandchildren, for their offspring? Burying our 

16 heads in the sand of denial of the effects of 

17 climate change for financial gain will not be a 

18 good investment for future generations. It is a 

19 poor ROI.

20 Many groups have voiced their thoughts on 

21 climate change and the harmful alterations to our 

22 planet caused by carbon emissions as the previous 

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1 speaker said. Among our kin are the U.S. kin who 

2 speak for this legislation, are the conference of 

3 the Catholic bishops, the interfaith community 

4 here in our city, Franciscans throughout the 

5 world -- and they're the biggest ones in the 

6 whole world, and Pope Francis, and also global 

7 environmentalists.

8 Thank you for this opportunity to speak 

9 here and leave you with a quote that a favorite 

10 man, Pope Francis, reminded us in the world in 

11 May of this year, "Creation is a gift. It is a 

12 wonderful gift that God has given us so that we 

13 can care for it and use it for the benefit of 

14 all. Always with respect and gratitude." And 

15 may God give you peace.

16 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. 

17 MS. ZWIGART: You're welcome.

18 MR. POWERS: Our next two speakers are 

19 Shari Shapiro and Jay Vutera.

20 MS. SHAPIRO: Good morning. I'm Shari 

21 Shapiro, I'm here on behalf of the International 

22 Code Council. I hope that I'm going to give you 

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1 a little break from the overall issue and take on 

2 a slightly more specific piece of this.

3 The International Code Council --

4 MR. POWERS: I'm sorry, could you spell 

5 your name?

6 MS. SHAPIRO: Oh, I'm sorry. S-h-a-r-i, 

7 Shapiro, S-h-a-p-i-r-o.

8 MR. POWERS: Thanks.

9 MS. SHAPIRO: The International Code 

10 Council was established in 1994 as a non-profit 

11 organization dedicated to developing a single set 

12 of comprehensive and coordinated building codes 

13 for the nation. And the I-Codes, as they're 

14 called, are used in all 50 states either at the 

15 state level or at the jurisdiction level to 

16 regulate the safe and energy efficient 

17 performance of new buildings and major 

18 renovations.

19 The I-Codes includes the International 

20 Energy Conversation Code, or IECC, which 

21 addresses energy use in commercial and 

22 residential buildings. Our colleagues over at 

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1 ASHRAE also publish a commercial energy code 

2 known as ASHRAE 90.1, which is incorporated by 

3 referencing into the I-Codes.

4 The IECC and the ASHRAE 90.1, which I'll 

5 just call the energy codes for this purpose, are 

6 updated every three years, and reviewed and 

7 adopted by states. These energy codes have an 

8 unparalleled track record in achieving cost 

9 effective energy savings and carbon emission 

10 reductions.

11 Therefore, while the IECC does not take a 

12 position on the regulation of carbon emissions by 

13 EPA, if you are going to implement the 

14 regulations, IECC urges EPA to specifically 

15 include the adoption of and compliance with 

16 energy and resource saving building codes as an 

17 allowable component of the state implementation 

18 plans.

19 First, energy codes are able to reduce 

20 energy use by buildings at a critical moment in 

21 their life cycle when they are being designed and 

22 built. Most of the energy efficiency programs 

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1 that the states have implemented through their 

2 utility programs and so forth are directed at 

3 retrofits of buildings, but energy codes gets at 

4 this sector of our buildings, and their energy 

5 efficiency at that critical moment.

6 The energy efficiency of buildings, which 

7 can last from 30 or to 50 years and beyond is set 

8 when those buildings are built. 

9 Like the difficulty in costs associated 

10 with adding carbon control mechanisms to existing 

11 power plants, this is the time when it is -- when 

12 energy efficient features need to be added.

13 In addition to the energy codes, the 

14 I-Codes now include the International Green 

15 Construction Code, which is a model codification 

16 of green building practices that jurisdictions 

17 can adopt and enforce just like their more 

18 traditional building codes.

19 The IGCC can achieve even greater energy 

20 and carbon emission savings at the time of 

21 construction through, for example, energy and 

22 carbon targets for that particular building, 

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1 siting, land views, on-site renewables.

2 Second, building codes have a track 

3 record of more than two decades of effectively 

4 reducing energy use and carbon emissions. 

5 Currently, the IECC is used or adopted in 

6 47 states. In 2013 the Pacific Northwest 

7 National Laboratory, on behalf of your sister 

8 agency at DOE, assessed the energy carbon and 

9 cost savings from energy codes, retrospectively 

10 back to 1992, and forward through 2040. And 

11 PNNL predicts that by 2040 energy codes can yield 

12 as much as 48 quads of fuel cycle energy savings 

13 and reduce carbon emissions by 3.7 billion metric 

14 tons. That's a lot.

15 Third, in addition to saving energy in 

16 carbon emissions, the energy codes help Americans 

17 save money. The Department of Energy estimates 

18 that homes built through the 2012 IECC here in 

19 Pennsylvania will save an average of $515 per 

20 year on their energy costs, $8,630 over the 

21 course of a 30-year mortgage.

22 On a national scale, DOE predicts an 

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1 additional 185.7 billion dollars in energy cost 

2 savings through 2040.

3 Finally, unlike developing new programs, 

4 the states and jurisdictions already have the 

5 necessary legal, educational and enforcement 

6 mechanisms in place to regulate buildings through 

7 energy codes. No additional regulatory 

8 mechanisms are required in the vast majority of 

9 states to realize the energy savings and carbon 

10 reduction benefits of up to date codes.

11 Despite these clear benefits, most states 

12 do not count energy code savings in their utility 

13 ratepayer funded energy efficiency programs. 

14 Instead, these programs focus on techniques that 

15 save energy in individual buildings or through 

16 specific equipment.

17 This makes sense in the context of 

18 ratepayer programs where you're trying to achieve 

19 a one to one, dollar for dollar reduction, the 

20 increase to the energy cost versus the amount 

21 that the consumer can save by being engaged in 

22 the programs.

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1 However, these constraints are not 

2 applicable to the Clean Power Plan. Consistent 

3 with the EPA's goals to allow states flexibility 

4 in their approach to energy savings, relying on a 

5 more diverse set of strategies, states should be 

6 encouraged to pursue the large amounts of energy 

7 efficiency investment and resulting emissions 

8 avoidance that occur outside of these utility 

9 ratepayer funded programs.

10 Therefore, IECC asks EPA to specifically 

11 reference energy and resource saving building 

12 codes in the list of acceptable state strategies 

13 for compliance with clean power regulations.

14 In the proposed rule, EPA expressed 

15 concern as to whether there are sufficient 

16 measurement and verification protocols available 

17 to accurately capture the energy and carbon 

18 savings from building energy codes. I want to 

19 address this concern directly. 

20 I direct EPA's attention to the work 

21 performed by PNNL and DOE to assess the savings 

22 attributable to DOE's Building Energy Codes 

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1 Program, which was published in October, 2013. 

2 In addition, ten states have included 

3 building energy code programs in their utility 

4 energy efficiency programs with different M and V 

5 protocols.

6 Finally, there have been several research 

7 based M and V protocols, including two recent 

8 ones, specifically on M and V of energy codes by 

9 the Pacific Northwest National Lab, and a joint 

10 study by the Northeast Energy Efficiency 

11 Partnerships, the Edison Foundation, and the 

12 institute for market transformation.

13 In conclusion, building energy and 

14 resource codes are a proven way of achieving 

15 energy, carbon and resource savings cost 

16 effectively, using legal and enforcement 

17 processes that already exist throughout the 

18 country.

19 Therefore, we urge the EPA to 

20 specifically include adoption of up to date codes 

21 as a strategy for states to comply with the clean 

22 power carbon reduction targets.

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1 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

2 MS. SHAPIRO: Any questions that you may 

3 have?

4 MR. POWERS: Do you have a written copy?

5 MS. SHAPIRO: I do.

6 MR. POWERS: That would be great. Mr. 

7 Butera?

8 MR. BUTERA: Yes, thank you. My name is 

9 Jay Butera, that's J-a-y, B-u-t-e-r-a, from 

10 Gladwyne, Pennsylvania, and I'm here to support 

11 the rule that you have proposed with a couple of 

12 caveats and suggestions. 

13 We have a lot of rules and regulations in 

14 America, and while some of those can be debated, 

15 there's a whole category of rules that cannot be 

16 debated whose principles are so strong, so 

17 morally right and so clearly needed by society 

18 that nobody should dispute them. These are 

19 typically the regulations that prevent people 

20 from harming each other, from stealing from each 

21 other, and from damaging other people's property.

22 And I believe that the regulation you're 

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1 proposing falls squarely into this category. 

2 It's premise should be beyond debate. You've 

3 proposed a rule that stops people from harming 

4 each other. It's as simple as that. Pollution 

5 hurts people. Pollution kills people. Pollution 

6 steals our children's future.

7 And so I don't really understand how 

8 anyone can dispute that we need to reduce and 

9 restrict pollution. I don't understand when did 

10 we begin to think that it's okay to use the 

11 atmosphere as a dumping ground for toxic waste.

12 Regulating carbon pollution is a 

13 particularly important thing for government to do 

14 because the harm that carbon is causing is not 

15 easily seen. CO2 is invisible, it's odorless and 

16 it's widely misunderstood. It's effects are so 

17 subtle and slow that people can't really see it 

18 with their eyes. You know, if someone throws 

19 trash on the sidewalk, you can clearly see that's 

20 a violation of rights and of decency, but carbon 

21 pollution is not so clear. That's why we rely on 

22 government to do something about this. 

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1 Ninety-seven percent of scientists 

2 understand what carbon is doing, and you 

3 understand what carbon is doing, and that's why 

4 you need to act on this, regardless of protest 

5 and regardless of public opinion.

6 And I wonder if those people who speak 

7 against this rule actually realize the magnitude 

8 of the damages that carbon is causing. Those 

9 coal miners who rallied here yesterday, they're 

10 good people with good intentions and I truly 

11 believe if they had the facts that you have, if 

12 they had the understanding about the cost and 

13 consequences of carbon pollution, that they would 

14 want to do the right thing too.

15 And at the same time I believe that the 

16 United States needs to do the right thing for 

17 those coal miners. We owe them that much. We 

18 owe them a just transition, compensation, 

19 retraining. We need to bring new industries to 

20 their areas and we can do that as a nation.

21 The one thing we can't do is allow them 

22 to derail the efforts to stop this dangerous 

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1 pollution. We cannot let the short term economic 

2 interest of a few thousand people derail 

3 irrational course of action to protect all of 

4 humanity and to protect the next thousand 

5 generations, and that's what I believe you're 

6 doing. 

7 Despite the t-shirts and the sound bites, 

8 this is not a war on coal. This is a battle to 

9 save the planet, and it's a battle that we must 

10 win.

11 Now, the one thing we can debate is how 

12 we go about reducing carbon pollution. I am 

13 still hopeful that Congress will come up with a 

14 market based plan to put a tax on carbon 

15 pollution so we can let the forces of capitalism, 

16 free markets and American innovation solve this 

17 problem.

18 I support the efforts of Citizen's 

19 Climate Lobby to unify Congress around a 

20 gradually rising carbon tax with all revenues 

21 returned to households. Bills along this line 

22 are emerging in Congress and economists believe 

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1 it's the cost efficient way to address the 

2 problem. 

3 I realize that you cannot implement such 

4 a program, but I would ask that you allow states 

5 to utilize a carbon tax as a way to meet the 

6 emissions reductions goals of the Clean Power 

7 Plan. And I believe you have the authority to do 

8 that.

9 In closing, I would like to thank you for 

10 all the hard work that you have done to move 

11 these regulations forward. I know it's a 

12 difficult job and a big one, but your work is 

13 important, it's essential and it's a big step 

14 toward a rational carbon solution. Thank you. 

15 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. Is 

16 there anybody else in the audience who would like 

17 to speak right now? If not, we'll take a five or 

18 ten minute break. It's about almost 20 of 12:00. 

19 We may or may not have a couple more speakers 

20 before the noontime break, but for now I'll just 

21 adjourn for five or ten minutes and we'll see if 

22 we get anymore cards.

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1 [Recess from 11:36 to 11:46 a.m.]

2 MR. POWERS: Good morning again, 

3 everybody. This is to reopen the panel. We have 

4 three more speakers before our lunch break, at 

5 least currently lined up, and we have a change in 

6 the panel up here. 

7 Just so you know who's who, joining me is 

8 EPA's Regional Administrator for Region 3 out of 

9 Philadelphia, Shawn Garvin to my right, and Meg 

10 Victor had to catch a plane, so ably filling in 

11 for her is Andre Kreider, also from Region 3 in 

12 Philadelphia.

13 The next speaker will be Jacqueline 

14 Patterson, followed by Kimberly Williams and 

15 Kevin Lusky.

16 MS. PATTERSON: Thank you. 

17 MR. POWERS: Please spell your name for 

18 the court reporter.

19 MS. PATTERSON: Sure. My name is 

20 Jacqueline, J-a-c-q-u-e-l-i-n-e, Patterson, 

21 P-a-t-t-e-r-s-o-n.

22 So in February of 2011, my father began 

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1 to complain of a cough, which worsened over six 

2 months until he was homebound and tethered to an 

3 oxygen machine. He was severely winded just 

4 walking from the living room to the kitchen to 

5 get a glass of water. 

6 Dad's diagnosis was pulmonary fibrosis, 

7 but my father never smoked a day in his life. 

8 His doctor stated that the scar tissue in his 

9 lungs was likely due to past exposure to 

10 environmental toxins from his workplace or 

11 otherwise.

12 Dad spent 40 years residing within ten 

13 miles of the Fisk and Crawford Coal Plants in 

14 Chicago. We laid my father to rest on 

15 September 12th of 2011.

16 How many more people must we bury before 

17 we're granted equal protection under the law? 

18 Approximately 68 percent of African Americans 

19 live within 30 miles of a coal plant. The impact 

20 is clear and the rates are respiratory illnesses 

21 in African Americans, even though we have lower 

22 rates of smoking, we are more likely to die of 

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1 lung disease.

2 Nationwide, African American children are 

3 twice as likely to die of asthma and three times 

4 more likely to be admitted to the hospital for an 

5 asthma attack.

6 We also see high asthma rates within the 

7 Latino American and Native American populations, 

8 who are also disproportionately exposed to coal 

9 pollution.

10 Carbon may not directly cause these 

11 health conditions, but it creates what scientists 

12 call domes that trap, concentrate and intensify 

13 the other toxins we breathe. With the mercury, 

14 arsenic, lead, dioxins and other pollutants that 

15 come from coal plants in communities nationwide, 

16 these domes are, in effect, creating lethal gas 

17 chambers for communities that are host to these 

18 facilities.

19 At the same time, carbon dioxide is the 

20 number one driver of climate change, and these 

21 plants are the leading source of carbon dioxide. 

22 Again, climate change affects us all, but it's 

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1 effects are felt hardest by communities and 

2 people who are politically, economically, 

3 physically and socially vulnerable.

4 When I did hurricane relief after Katrina 

5 and Rita, the throngs of folks who walked through 

6 the doors in the disaster recovery center were 

7 largely African American and largely low income. 

8 I also met scores of people with hearing 

9 impairments with no qualified interpreter to help 

10 them navigate the system.

11 I encountered people with HIV and AIDS 

12 who went weeks without access to their life 

13 preserving antiretroviral drugs. I met women who 

14 encountered sexual assault in the aftermath of 

15 the disaster.

16 I met hundreds of people who had to 

17 completely start over after only escaping with 

18 their lives. And scientists say that Katrina, 

19 Rita, Sandy and so forth are only the tip of the 

20 iceberg.

21 Growing up on the south side of Chicago, 

22 I lived in a food dessert, like so many people of 

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1 color and low income communities. This means we 

2 had better access to Doritos or Cheetos than 

3 broccoli or strawberries. 

4 We already see how this plays out for 

5 communities who are suffering from heightened 

6 rates of obesity as well as hunger, and all of 

7 the health conditions that result from poor diet, 

8 such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood 

9 pressure, et cetera.

10 Affordable access to nutritious foods 

11 will only lessen as climate change affects crops. 

12 In recent years we have seen farmers in Illinois, 

13 Iowa, Mississippi and beyond lose crops both to 

14 flood and drought. Again, scientists say we've 

15 only begun to see these impacts.

16 With my work with the NAACP, I have 

17 visited coastal communities from Florida, to 

18 Louisiana, to North Carolina to New York, some of 

19 whom are already experiencing coastal erosion, 

20 and several of who are facing displacement in the 

21 next 20 years due to sea level rise and storm 

22 surge.

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1 The cost of inaction on carbon pollution 

2 is the health, livelihood, culture, economic and 

3 social well-being of communities worldwide, and 

4 vulnerable communities being hit first and worst. 

5 Therefore, we need strong carbon pollution 

6 standards to slow the path of devastation on 

7 which we are recklessly traveling, strong move 

8 that we aren't steering the ship from one 

9 disaster to another by myopically shifting to 

10 false solutions. Even the costly clean coal 

11 technologies were proven to effectively capture 

12 carbon. That wouldn't help the 76,000 coal 

13 miners who have died of black lung disease since 

14 1968, or the folks who are drinking lead waters 

15 contaminated by coal ash ponds.

16 Shifting to fracking continues to admit 

17 carbon from venting and flaring has been known to 

18 contaminate aquifers with its mystery cocktail of 

19 toxins and may even contribute to the increase in 

20 seismic activity that is causing earthquakes from 

21 Nebraska to Ohio and beyond.

22 The folks knew the Fukushima Daiichi 

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1 plant would certainly have a cautionary tale

2 about increasing our reliance on nuclear energy, 

3 particularly given that a number of America's 

4 nuclear reactors are built on earthquake fault 

5 lines.

6 We must establish aggressive targets for 

7 pollution reduction and significantly increase 

8 our focus in action on energy efficiency and 

9 clean energy. The National Renewable Energy 

10 Laboratory has found that we have vast amounts of 

11 solar, wind and geothermal potential, some of 

12 which is already being harnessed, creating new 

13 jobs. That's where we need to focus investment 

14 as we shift from harmful coal based energy 

15 production processes.

16 Finally, we must ensure that each state's 

17 development of implementation plans are done 

18 inclusively so that equity based input is heeded 

19 and all stakeholders are heard, particularly 

20 communities that are most impacted by coal 

21 pollution. Thank you so much.

22 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Just in time 

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1 finishing. Thank you very much. Thank you very 

2 much. Kevin Lusky and Kimberly Williams.

3 MR. GARVIN: And then we're going to have 

4 two more on deck before lunch, Andrew Grande and 

5 Bill Price.

6 MR. POWERS: Do you want to go first? 

7 I'm sorry, this is the way I've got them, but if 

8 you'd like to go first that's --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, sure.

10 MR. POWERS: Sure.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Hi. My name is Kimberly 

12 Williams. I'll keep this pretty brief. I am 23 

13 years old, and my experience has been growing up 

14 in school and at home I was taught that how we 

15 treat the earth matters. And that climate change 

16 is real, and that this is something that my 

17 generation will be dealing with.

18 And this was something that, you know, as 

19 I went through science classes and I learned 

20 about it, it all made sense. My parents taught 

21 me that we should recycle, and we should treat 

22 the earth responsibly. And so it just makes 

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1 sense to me that we should be doing everything 

2 that we can to tackle the largest single source 

3 of global warming.

4 And based on my experiences growing up, 

5 and what I've been taught as what is important, 

6 it seems ridiculous to me that there's a question 

7 that this might be -- whether or not this is the 

8 right thing to do, whether or not tackling global 

9 warming and taking the first meaningful step 

10 forward, and global warming is something that we 

11 should be doing.

12 It's quite clear to me that if we don't 

13 move forward, that my generation, the people who 

14 are 23 are going to be bearing the burden and I 

15 think that that's real unfortunate for me and for 

16 my peers. 

17 So I applaud EPA for taking the step, and 

18 I encourage them to take it to the finish line 

19 for the sake of myself and other people just like 

20 me.

21 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 

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1 MR. LUSKY: My name is Kevin Lusky. I am 

2 with a group called Pet Environment but I am 

3 reading on behalf of Andrew Sharp, who is an 

4 affiliate from Philadelphia. So a little bit a 

5 trek for him to get there, so I'm reading it on 

6 his behalf.

7 MR. POWERS: Can you spell your last 

8 name?

9 MR. LUSKY: L-u-s-k-y.

10 "My name is Andrew Sharpe and I live in 

11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I am in full support 

12 of the EPA's proposal standard. It should be 

13 implemented promptly and without being weakened 

14 in any way."

15 "Carbon pollution accelerates climate 

16 change, contributes to more frequent and more 

17 violent extreme weather changes that costs 

18 communities the federal government and our 

19 economy billions of dollars each year and also 

20 threatens public health."

21 "Currently, we limit how much mercury, 

22 arsenic, soot and other air pollution that power 

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1 plants can dump into the air, but there is no 

2 federal limits on carbon pollution."

3 "The EPA has the regulatory power to 

4 limit carbon pollution per a bipartisan vote of 

5 Congress and confirmation by the supreme court in 

6 a decision written by the conservative Justice 

7 Antonin Scalia."

8 "Carbon pollution causing climate change 

9 is responsible for thousands of premature deaths, 

10 higher health risks of asthma attacks and other 

11 respiratory diseases, and hundreds of thousands 

12 of missed worked days and low activity days."

13 "A study by the Clean Air Task Force 

14 estimates 13,000 American deaths were attributed 

15 to power plant pollution in 2010 alone."

16 "People may think that we don't feel any 

17 of these impacts personally, and there is a good 

18 reason for that. Power plant pollution does not 

19 impact Americans equally. Dirty air 

20 disproportionately affects low income communities 

21 as well as children, seniors and those who work 

22 and play outdoors."

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1 "Still, nearly half of Americans live in 

2 countries or counties that have unhealthy levels 

3 of dirty air according to the American Lung 

4 Association. Big polluters want to continue to 

5 dump unlimited amounts of carbon pollution into 

6 the air without penalty and without regard for 

7 public health impacts on children, seniors and 

8 families that live around power plants instead of 

9 adopting reasonable carbon pollution and 

10 safeguards that protect the public health and 

11 slow climate change."

12 "That's wrong and the EPA has the chance 

13 to correct it. Right this wrong by implementing 

14 the proposed standard as soon as possible without 

15 any modifications that will weaken it." Thank 

16 you. 

17 MR. POWERS: Thank you very much. And 

18 Two other speakers, Andrew Grande and Bill Price.

19 MR. GRANDE: Hi, my name is Andrew 

20 Grande, I'm an organizer with the Sierra Club. 

21 I'm from Cumberland, Rhode Island, but today I'll 

22 be reading a testimony from Timothy Moore from 

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1 Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

2 MR. POWERS: Could you spell your name?

3 MR. GRANDE: Sure. A-n-d-r-e-w, last name 

4 is Grande, G-r-a-n-d-e.

5 MR. POWERS: Thank you. 

6 MR. GRANDE: So this is on behalf of 

7 Timothy Moore of Portsmouth, New Hampshire. "I 

8 have ice fished for more than 30 years. Growing 

9 up in the seacoast New Hampshire area, most 

10 winter weekends were spent ice fishing for smelt 

11 on Great Bay with my father."

12 "The months leading up to the start of 

13 smelt fishing season were filled with 

14 anticipation and excitement about what the coming 

15 winter would bring. We wondered if there would 

16 be more or fewer shacks this year or if the smelt 

17 fishing would be as good as last year."

18 "But one thing we never wondered was if 

19 there would be safe ice to fish on. I'll admit 

20 that safe ice can't form soon enough for me. If 

21 I had my way the lakes would stay frozen all 

22 year, or at least a few of them."

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1 "But I never imagined that I wonder if I 

2 would be able to ice fish each season. I can 

3 remember seeing trucks on the ice of Great Bay 

4 when I was a kid and no one thought twice about 

5 it. Now no one would dream of driving a vehicle 

6 on the ice of Great Bay because it doesn't freeze 

7 thickly enough anymore."

8 "Every winter, the ice that forms on 

9 Great Bay is thinner, making the smelt fishing 

10 season shorter. The winter of 2012 was the worst 

11 I can remember. There was safe ice to fish on 

12 for about two weeks and then it was gone and 

13 never returned. But it didn't seem to matter 

14 because there were still few smelt to catch. 

15 Warmer water temperatures are also contributing 

16 to the loss of valuable smelt habitat, which I 

17 will address more fully later."

18 "As a young adult, I gravitated to 

19 freshwater ice fishing. At the time I thought I 

20 was just drawn to the diversity of species that 

21 could be caught through the ice in freshwater."

22 "Well, that is true, I later realized 

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1 that it was the dependability of safe ice that 

2 drew me to the freshwater lakes and ponds each 

3 winter. However, I will now wonder how long I 

4 will have safe freshwater ice to fish on."

5 "Winters now where lakes such as 

6 Winnipesaukee don't completely freeze over, and 

7 if they do, it is only for a brief period of 

8 time. I make my living as an ice fishing guide 

9 during the winter months and each season gets 

10 shorter and less consistent. I know weather 

11 isn't something we can control, but it is more 

12 extreme and unpredictable than ever."

13 "I didn't grow up hearing terms such as 

14 El Nino, La Nina or polar vortex, but now they 

15 are commonplace terms because of new and changing 

16 weather patterns."

17 "Another change I have witnessed over the 

18 past decade due to warm water is the timing and 

19 duration of certain fishes spawning. It is the 

20 lake being free of ice, the amount of daylight 

21 hours and water temperature which trigger white 

22 perch and other species to spawn. The white 

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1 perch usually spawn over a two-week period, but 

2 now the water warms so fast that in some areas of 

3 the lake they spawn in one day."

4 "Warmer water also affects cold water 

5 species like lake trout and landlocked salmon. 

6 All fish species, warm water and cold water, have 

7 a preferred water temperature, and the rising 

8 water temperatures are forcing them out of their 

9 natural habitats because of depleted oxygen, 

10 algae blooms and other side effects of warming 

11 trends."

12 "Carbon emissions are affecting our 

13 overall quality of life by posing serious health 

14 risks, but the emissions also have a negative 

15 impact on the success and quality of life of our 

16 fish and wildlife, which in turn, leads to 

17 negative economic impacts."

18 "If we do not act the problem will only 

19 continue to get worse. Carbon emissions are a 

20 major part of the problem and power plants are a 

21 contributor. I support the Environmental 

22 Protection Agency's effort to reduce carbon 

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1 emissions through the Clean Power Plan. Thank 

2 you. Sincerely, Timothy Moore, Portsmouth, New 

3 Hampshire."

4 MR. POWERS: Thank you. He may be a 

5 minority voice wishing for ice year around, I'll 

6 just note. Mr. Price?

7 MR. PRICE: Yes. So my name is Bill 

8 Price. I'm an organizer with the Sierra Club and 

9 also a resident of West Virginia. I'll be 

10 submitting more intense comments in a written 

11 form from my personal perspective, except to say 

12 for today that I support the EPA's carbon rule, 

13 and hope that we can work this out in a way of a 

14 just transition, but a transition that will need 

15 to happen in my area of Appalachia.

16 I'm reading today into the record 

17 comments from Nora Wright from Boston, 

18 Massachusetts, who is a member of the Beacon Hill 

19 Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends.

20 MR. POWERS: Could you spell her last 

21 name?

22 MR. PRICE: Her last name is W-r-i-g-h-t.

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1 "The United States, all of us and the 

2 government that acts on behalf of the public 

3 good, we all need to support the biggest and most 

4 promising climate proposal to date, these new EPA 

5 regulations. The magnitude of the climate change 

6 threat requires bold national action."

7 "As a Cornel trained city and regional 

8 planner, I understand the importance of analyzing 

9 trends and preparing for the future. We know 

10 that to avoid the worst impacts of warming, in 

11 2009 at the Copenhagen Summit, the world agreed 

12 that the temperature should not exceed two 

13 degrees Celsius that can be translated into 

14 gigatons of carbon. How much more carbon can be 

15 emitted before we exceed two degrees. That 

16 number is something more than -- something more 

17 than 500 for all of us."

18 "That is our carbon budget. Global 

19 emissions needed to remain within that carbon 

20 budget. If current emission levels stay the 

21 same, the planets carbon budget will be exhausted 

22 by 2024, ten years from now, or even earlier if 

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1 their upward trend continues." 

2 "This is a climate crisis. If unchecked, 

3 fossil fuel companies will simply carry out their 

4 state admission of selling and burring their 

5 reserves. What would be the climate impact? All 

6 models suggest that we will far exceed the two 

7 degree limit and we may expect global 

8 temperatures to rise above five degrees Celsius. 

9 What is the effect of a five degree increase?"

10 "Two degrees puts Amsterdam under water. 

11 Three to four degrees puts New York under water. 

12 Oceans die as habitats. Seventy-five percent of 

13 sea ice will be gone. Italy, Spain and Greece 

14 will become desserts."

15 "Forty percent of species are at risk for 

16 extinction at three to four degrees, and it is 

17 unclear what species can survive a five degree 

18 increase."

19 "I support the EPA's regulation of carbon 

20 and hope that the state plans will center on 

21 renewable energy. Future generations, if we 

22 manage to pull this out of a fire, will find it 

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1 incomprehensible that we Americans continued 

2 until well into the 21st century to engage in 

3 behavior that seriously compromised the ability 

4 of our own country and the planet."

5 "May it be said of us that we did 

6 everything in our power to reverse the climate 

7 crisis while there is still some time left." 

8 Thank you. 

9 MR. POWERS: Thank you. Is there anyone 

10 else who would like to testify before lunch? You 

11 get another chance afterwards. 

12 Seeing none, I'm going to adjourn this 

13 hearing. I do want to thank everybody who's here 

14 who came and testified or just came to listen. 

15 EPA's very appreciative of the time that people 

16 take to comment to us and give us input on these 

17 rules.

18 With that we are going to take a just 

19 about an hour break and reconvene at 1:00 p.m. 

20 here. Thanks very much.

21 [Lunch recess from 12:04 to 1:02 p.m.]

22 MS. ESHER: Good afternoon. My name is 

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1 Diana Esher and I am one of the Chairs at today's 

2 Public Hearing. Thank you for coming today.

3 I have with me Michael Gordon and Dave 

4 Arnold. They'll be on the panel with me today.

5 So we're here today to listen to your 

6 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

7 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

8 of these proposed rules on June 2nd, 2014. 

9 Power plants are the largest source of 

10 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

11 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

12 emissions. 

13 The first rule is EPA's Proposed Clean 

14 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

15 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

16 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

17 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

18 develop their plans for meeting the goals.

19 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

20 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

21 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

22 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

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1 their goals by 2030.

2 The second rule is EPA's Proposed Rule to 

3 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

4 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

5 set emission limits for two groups of power 

6 plants. Those that make physical or operational 

7 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

8 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

9 that replace components to such an extent that 

10 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

11 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

12 facility.

13 If you would like more details on either 

14 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

15 available at the registration desk and also in 

16 that back corner. So there are some fact sheets 

17 if you would like some.

18 Today's hearing is one of four public 

19 hearings across the country this week on the two 

20 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

21 these hearings and we really thank you for taking 

22 the time out of your day to participate.

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1 We have a lot of people signed up to 

2 speak today and yesterday, and we'd like to hear 

3 from everybody. So I am going to go over some 

4 ground rules and some housekeeping items that 

5 will help us make this meeting run smoothly.

6 First I want to make sure everybody 

7 checked in at EPA's registration desk downstairs. 

8 The way we figure out who's speaking is we get 

9 cards from the registration desk. So if you 

10 didn't register, we won't know that you're here 

11 to speak. So please make sure you did that.

12 Second, I want to make sure you're in the 

13 right room. So this is Room A, so if you're a 

14 speaker in Room A, you're in the right place. 

15 And here's how the hearing will work. I'll call 

16 up speakers in pairs and when your name is 

17 called, please come to the front of the room to 

18 this table. And when I call on you to speak, 

19 please state your name and spell it for the court 

20 reporter.

21 Your comments will be transcribed and 

22 included in the record of comments, and all of 

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1 this testimony will be part of the public record.

2 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

3 give comments. We have a light, so this light 

4 will be on to show you how much time you have. 

5 When the light goes from green to yellow, that 

6 means you have one minute remaining. And when it 

7 turns red, that's just a signal that you should 

8 start to wrap up. And it actually buzzes, so 

9 you'll know when your time is up.

10 When you're finished speaking, please 

11 remain at the table or podium until the next 

12 person who's sitting with you has also completed 

13 his or her testimony.

14 So we're here to listen to you today. 

15 However a panel member may ask clarifying 

16 questions. So if we want to ask you more, we may 

17 ask you to clarify something. After that I'll 

18 call up the next pair of speakers and we'll 

19 continue throughout the afternoon. 

20 So if you have a written copy of your 

21 testimony, please give it to the staff at the 

22 registration desk before you leave today. 

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1 So in order to be fair to everyone, we're 

2 going to have to strictly enforce the five minute 

3 limit, and like I said, we have a timer to help 

4 you with that. If you have additional comments 

5 before five minutes, please submit them in 

6 writing and let me assure you that EPA gives just 

7 as much consideration to the comments we receive 

8 in writing as those that we listen to.

9 There is still plenty of time to get in 

10 written comments. Comments must be received by 

11 October 16th, 2014, and all written comments will 

12 also be part of the official docket for the 

13 proposed rule. 

14 We're actually scheduled to go to 8:00 

15 p.m. tonight. We'll be taking short breaks as 

16 needed throughout the afternoon and evening. And 

17 if you have any questions, please see the staff 

18 either at the registration desk, or you'll see 

19 staff coming in and out of the room. Feel free 

20 to engage them.

21 And finally, I want to ask you to please 

22 be respectful of everyone who speaks today. We 

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1 have people with a wide variety of views in the 

2 audience, we really want to hear from everyone, 

3 and we want to be fair to everyone, so please 

4 listen quietly.

5 If you have a cell phone on, I'd 

6 appreciate it if you'd turn it off. And just to 

7 think about even applause can slow things down, 

8 so it would be helpful if you listen quietly, and 

9 thank you, again, for taking time to come in and 

10 comment on EPA's proposed rule.

11 So now that I went through the 

12 housekeeping, let me introduce our other panel 

13 member, our Regional Administrator from 

14 Philadelphia, Shawn Garvin.

15 MR. GARVIN: I just want to thank 

16 everybody form coming and I look forward to 

17 hearing your comments. Thanks.

18 MS. ESHER: So we'll go ahead and get 

19 started. Our first two speakers are Tom Clarke 

20 and Gregory Vogt. Thank you, gentlemen. And Mr. 

21 Clarke, when you're ready.

22 MR. CLARKE: My name is Tom Clarke. It's 

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1 T-o-m, C-l-a-r-k-e. 

2 Hello. I'm Tom Clarke and I appear today 

3 on behalf of Governor Earl Ray Tomblin and 

4 residents of West Virginia to address EPA's 

5 proposed rule limited CO2 emissions from existing 

6 power plants.

7 This rule in its current form is wrong on 

8 many levels. It threatens the reliability and 

9 affordability of our electric supply. It 

10 threatens our local, state and national 

11 economies. It is likely illegal on several 

12 respects. It harms our coal miners, families, 

13 communities, and seniors.

14 It is a meaningless gesture that will 

15 have negligible effect on worldwide CO2 levels, 

16 and while claiming to provide flexibility to the 

17 states, the EPA sets unrealistic and unattainable 

18 goals.

19 The unelected bureaucrats at the EPA 

20 should not be allowed to write energy and 

21 economic policy for the country. This is a job 

22 for Congress. 

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1 The EPA should not be allowed to 

2 establish through regulation what Congress has 

3 declined to establish through legislation. The 

4 Clean Air Act was never intended to allow EPA to 

5 take over the nation's electric power generation 

6 industry as it is now proposing to do. 

7 In fact, the Section Clean Air Act the 

8 EPA chose is a basis for this rule. 111(d), by 

9 its own terms, does not give EPA authority to 

10 regulate power plants because emissions from them 

11 are regulated under Section 112.

12 The inexpensive power is the engine for 

13 our nation's economy. It is the basis for our 

14 country's decision as the world's economic 

15 leader. Under EPA's carbon constrained future, 

16 the energy advantages our country once had will 

17 no longer exist. Compounding this economic 

18 threat is implementing CO2 reductions at a time 

19 of economic downturn when power production and a 

20 company air emissions are at low levels.

21 The EPA's mandate of further reductions 

22 from this low point puts a choke hold on the 

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1 ability of the economy to recover and thrive. 

2 For West Virginia, the economic harm is further 

3 compounded by the fact that EPA's rule, which is, 

4 in essence, a mandate to remove coal from the 

5 country's portfolio, directly targets our highest 

6 paying jobs, jobs which are fundamental to our 

7 families and communities.

8 The carbon constraints the EPA plans to 

9 put on the U.S. economy won't affect the rest of 

10 the world. Worldwide, the use of coal will grow. 

11 China, which uses about half of the eight billion 

12 tons of coal the world consumes each year has 

13 seen CO2 emissions rise 67 percent since 2005. 

14 In the same period, India's emissions rose 52 

15 percent. These already thriving economies will 

16 further prosper at America's expense. 

17 Whatever modest reduction of CO2 may be 

18 achieved under EPA's proposed rule is likely to 

19 be more than offset by increased emissions from 

20 the increased use of coal elsewhere in the world. 

21 The purported environmental benefit of 

22 the rule is unlikely to ever be achieved. When 

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1 looking beyond the economic harm and lack of 

2 environment benefit to the rule, itself, several 

3 glaring concerns appear.

4 First, Section 111(d) of the Clean Air 

5 Act authorizes EPA to regulate emissions from 

6 stationary sources of air pollution. 

7 Historically, this has been applied to regulate 

8 emissions from pollutants at a source with inside 

9 the fence controls. 

10 Building blocks two, three and four of 

11 the best systems of emissions reduction the EPA 

12 proposes would unlawfully expand EPA jurisdiction 

13 well beyond the inside the fence limits of the 

14 Clean Air Act and as such, are illegal.

15 Block two, redispatch constitutes EPA as 

16 the overseer of operations of the country's 

17 electric grid. 

18 And block three, renewable energy. EPA 

19 is applying mandates to facilities with no actual 

20 emissions of air pollutants. 

21 And block four, energy efficiency, EPA is 

22 stepping outside the fence to apply mandates to 

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1 end users of electricity.

2 Second, Section 111 requires the best 

3 system of emissions reduction to be adequately 

4 demonstrated. The goals that EPA sets in the 

5 proposed rule are so unrealistically aggressive 

6 that no credible claim can be made that their 

7 feasibility has been adequately demonstrated.

8 Block one, heat rate improvement at coal 

9 fired power plants seeks a six percent 

10 improvement. This is based upon EPA's review of 

11 literature, particularly a 2009 report. 

12 EPA obviously has not looked at the real 

13 capacity of actual electric generating units to 

14 achieve these improvements, nor has it considered 

15 that utilities have always been obligated to both 

16 regulatory commissions and their shareholders to 

17 achieve any economically achievable efficiencies. 

18 A six percent goal is far too aggressive 

19 for the West Virginia fleet of plants, which is 

20 already the second most efficient group in the 

21 county.

22 Block three, renewable energy would 

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1 requires 600 percent increase for West Virginia. 

2 EPA arrived at this goal by arbitrarily including 

3 West Virginia and a region of northeastern states 

4 and establishing the goal not on what is feasible 

5 for West Virginia, but instead, appointed an 

6 unrealistically aggressive assessment for the 

7 region.

8 Block four, energy efficiency, sets a 

9 goal of 10.7 percent for West Virginia. The 

10 state's current rate 0.05 percent, meaning EPA 

11 expects the state to achieve a completely 

12 unrealistic 200 fold increase.

13 Third, EPA proposal is constructed to 

14 penalize coal fired power by imposing limits on 

15 the net emissions rate of CO2 rather than the 

16 gross weight. Coal plants are being penalized 

17 for power that is consumed by pollution control 

18 equipment recently mandated by other EPA rules.

19 There are many other issues with EPA's 

20 proposed rule that the State of West Virginia 

21 will point out later in its written comments. 

22 The EPA's proposal should be withdrawn and its 

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1 attempt to regulate CO2 under Section 111 should 

2 be abandoned.

3 MS. ESHER: Thank you for your comments. 

4 Mr. Vogt?

5 MR. VOGT: Greg Vogt, V-o-g-t. 

6 I'm Greg Vogt, an assistant business 

7 manager with the IBEW Local 5 in Pittsburgh. 

8 IBEW is a labor union with local unions 

9 throughout the United States and Canada, with 

10 about 700,000 members, including about 35,000 in 

11 the 22 Pennsylvania counties where IBEW Local 5 

12 has jurisdiction.

13 The 325 contractors that employ our 

14 member electricians work throughout the economy, 

15 primarily in electrical construction of 

16 residential, commercial, retail and industrial 

17 industries. 

18 IBEW Local 5 is very pro-growth, 

19 pro-development, because when the economy runs 

20 smoothly, our members work. When there is a 

21 demand for quality work at a reasonable price, 

22 our members work. With a sluggish economy, our 

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1 members are out of work.

2 We have concerns about the EPA's proposed 

3 emission standards in some regards. First, it is 

4 the direct impact on our members as Pennsylvania 

5 cold fired power plants will be forced to shut 

6 down. Electrical power generating facilities are 

7 a big employer for our members, who supply 

8 temporary construction workers for maintenance, 

9 outages and in major upgrade projects.

10 Second is the indirect impact. Because 

11 coal industry jobs are family sustaining jobs, 

12 every direct coal industry job creates 1.6 jobs 

13 across all other sectors of the economy. The 

14 emission standards you're proposing will have a 

15 significant negative impact on Pennsylvania 

16 generally, and western Pennsylvania in 

17 particular.

18 Third, removing such a significant 

19 proportion of coal from the nation's energy mix 

20 will cause substantial increases in the cost of 

21 electricity, costs that will hurt the 

22 competitiveness of those who hire us as well as 

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1 costs that will hurt our individual members and 

2 all consumers who pay electrical bills.

3 Pennsylvania is blessed with abundant 

4 energy resources, and because of that, we are one 

5 of the country's leading energy producing states. 

6 We export energy to other states that are not as 

7 blessed as we are. Pennsylvania would shoulder a 

8 disproportionate share of economic harm if these 

9 proposed emission standards are put into place.

10 In the short term, hundreds of jobs will 

11 be lost as power plants are forced to close. 

12 Over time, the job losses will total thousands. 

13 And for what? To be able to say that we have 

14 achieved a reduction in global greenhouse gas 

15 emissions of one percent.

16 The vast majority of IBEW members enter 

17 through an acceptance into our five-year 

18 apprenticeship program. This five-year program 

19 includes both classroom and on-the-job training. 

20 Every year 60 or so apprentices complete this 

21 rigorous five-year program to become journeymen 

22 electricians. This rigorous program pays off 

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1 with family sustaining jobs.

2 These days many of us are worried about 

3 the loss of family sustaining jobs, whether they 

4 move offshore or just disappear because an plant 

5 is closed or a company has gone out of business.

6 Coal industry jobs are family sustaining 

7 jobs, too. We need these jobs in order to 

8 sustain a healthy, vibrant economy. Everybody 

9 wants a clean environment, including IBEW and its 

10 members, but this country has made progress in 

11 reducing power plant emissions, including carbon. 

12 We should continue to make progress and reduce 

13 emissions even further, and at the same time, 

14 preserve thousands of family sustaining jobs. 

15 Thank you.

16 MS. ESHER: Thank you to both of you. 

17 Our next speakers are Jeffery Miller and Richard 

18 Dunkel. Mr. Miller, when you're ready. Thank 

19 you. 

20 MR. MILLER: Thank you. My name is 

21 Jeffrey Miller, J-e-f-f-r-e-y, M-i-l-l-e-r. 

22 Hi, my name is Jeffrey Miller. And an 

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1 Assistant Business Manager with IBEW Local Union 

2 Number 5, and I'm here speaking on behalf of its 

3 some 3,500 members. 

4 I, as well as many others, am here today 

5 because our members are concerned about the loss 

6 of their jobs due to EPA's proposed Clean Power 

7 Plan. I know that over the last few days you 

8 have heard repeated testimony on how the EPA's 

9 Clean Power Plan will undoubtedly attempt to 

10 clean toxins from our atmosphere while at the 

11 same time, deal a crippling blow to our nation's 

12 economy by eliminating jobs that are directly 

13 intertwined with the production and us of coal.

14 I do not wish to repeat these national 

15 statistics for you again, but I do want to really 

16 how this plan will affect our members directly. 

17 IBEW Local 5 has a jurisdiction that covers 22 

18 counties in western Pennsylvania, approximately 

19 one-third of the commonwealth.

20 The six counties that I represent have 

21 approximately 300 journey persons and apprentices 

22 living within its boundaries. These are IBEW 

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1 workers with good paying jobs. But more 

2 importantly, they are IBEW workers with families, 

3 and mortgages, and car payments, and kids in 

4 school and college.

5 Also within this six county primarily 

6 rural area are four active coal fired electrical 

7 generating facilities. Combined, these plants 

8 produced 4,893 megawatts, or nearly five 

9 gigawatts of electricity, supplying energy to 

10 tens of thousands of homes. It's just a small 

11 percentage of the power generated in the eastern 

12 Appalachian region, and an even smaller 

13 percentage in the United States using coal as a 

14 fuel source.

15 Within this six county area, IBEW Local 5 

16 currently has over 125 of its members working on 

17 construction projects at several of these coal 

18 fired facilities. These projects include an SCR 

19 in two unites and a scrubber on another two 

20 unites. Both projects involve work on the back 

21 pass of these units, and in other words, they're 

22 designed to clean emissions, thus making these 

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1 plants burn cleaner and more efficiently.

2 They will create electricity that is 

3 environmentally cleaner than before. These 

4 projects are capital projects and are only a part 

5 of the picture that our members play building 

6 them. They are also the many man hours created 

7 in maintaining these plants with both scheduled 

8 and forced outages.

9 The loss of jobs created by the closure 

10 of one or all of the stations due to a more 

11 stringent coal regulations will be devastating to 

12 the workforce of the IBEW. 

13 The examples I have given are just a few 

14 of the examples of direct impact that closures of 

15 coal fired facilities would create? Ironically, 

16 the livelihoods of our members, members belonging 

17 to the International Brotherhood of Electrical 

18 workers completely revolve around the generation 

19 of electricity. 

20 In this great country, the United States 

21 of American, in the year 2014, we most assuredly 

22 have the intelligence and the technology to 

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1 continue the use of, and even expand the use of 

2 coal as a chief source of our power generation. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Mr. Dunkel?

5 MR. DUNKEL: Richard Dunkel, 

6 R-i-c-h-a-r-d, D-u-n-k-e-l. Unfortunately, you 

7 got three of us in a row.

8 My name is Richard Dunkel. I'm an 

9 electrician as well as Assistant Business Manager 

10 for the IBEW Local 5 located here in Pittsburgh.

11 IBEW Local 5 represents 3,500 inside 

12 construction electricians covering 22 counties in 

13 north and southwestern Pennsylvania. I have 

14 worked in the power generation industry for my 

15 entire career, as well as my father before me. 

16 He worked on the construction of Keystone, 

17 Conamal (phonetic), and Homer City Power Plants, 

18 and alter oversaw the additional scrubbers at 

19 Conamal, and the installation of an SCR at the 

20 Homer City Plant.

21 I have also worked on numerous 

22 maintenance outages at these plants, as well as 

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1 maintenance outages at the First Energy Hatfield 

2 Plant and the Allegheny Power Systems Armstrong 

3 Plant, both of which have been recently closed 

4 down.

5 The power generation industry has 

6 provided two generations of my family with a good 

7 middle class standard of living. Recently in our 

8 22 county area, we have had four coal burning 

9 power plants shut down, costing the members we 

10 represent hundreds of lost job opportunities and 

11 tens of thousands of man hours of work.

12 Unfortunately the effects of these plant 

13 closures reach further than the electricians we 

14 represent. Thousands of building tradesmen, 

15 utility workers, miners, railroad workers and 

16 barge operators have also lost their jobs. With 

17 the increase in job loss, there is the negative 

18 impact of the economic development that affects 

19 manufacturing expansion, local tax, federal and 

20 state taxes, revenues and small businesses.

21 Estimates show that clean power could 

22 cost the United States more than 150,000 jobs by 

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1 the year 2020.

2 First and foremost, let's not forget if 

3 the Clean Power Plan is enacted, the rest of the 

4 world will continue to burn coal. Developing 

5 nations such as China and India will continue to 

6 burn coal at an increasing rate, and these two 

7 countries combined have more than one-third of 

8 the world's population, and currently use less 

9 than ten percent of the world's electricity. 

10 Because the industrial revolution occurring in 

11 these developing nations, this number will go up 

12 drastically over the next decade.

13 We believe that the plan is premature 

14 since we do not know the extent to which other 

15 nations, including China and India, will be 

16 willing to commit to a truly global program of 

17 greenhouse gas reduction.

18 We cannot go it alone and expect other 

19 nations will have any meaningful climate impact 

20 in a world economy that is using more coal and 

21 other fossil fuels every day.

22 Second, the EPA proposal for increase in 

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1 the use of nature gas combined cycle generating 

2 units will lead to a significant increase in 

3 natural gas prices. This price increase will be 

4 further amplified by the export of natural gas to 

5 these developing nations. Independent analysts 

6 project that the utility gas demand may rise 

7 threefold above the EPA's current forecast. 

8 Consumers and energy intensive industries will be 

9 required to bear the brunt of this price 

10 increase.

11 We all agree that the air needs to be 

12 cleaner, that the proposed steps had deep 

13 reaching effects on the economy and future 

14 generations of the United States. 

15 The possibility of losing 150,000 highly 

16 skilled good paying jobs could be an economic 

17 disaster. This great country, the United States, 

18 cannot go it alone and implement clean power plan 

19 without having responsible assurances that the 

20 rest of the world will follow in our footsteps. 

21 It is my hope that the we provide cleaner 

22 air without sacrificing the economic future of 

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1 the United States.

2 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Any questions 

3 from the panel? 

4 MR. DUNKEL: Thank you. 

5 MR. GARVIN: Thank you. 

6 MS. ESHER: Our next two speakers are 

7 David McKenna and Dan Chu. David McKenna and Dan 

8 Chu. Hello?

9 MR. MCKENNA: Good afternoon. I just 

10 finished writing it. Do you want to go first?

11 MR. CHU: Oh, sure. I'll give him 

12 another minute then.

13 Good afternoon. My name is Dan Chu, I'm 

14 the Senior Director for Our Wild American 

15 campaign at the Sierra Club.

16 COURT REPORTER: Can you please spell 

17 your name?

18 MR. CHU: C-h-u.

19 Good afternoon, my name is Dan Chu, 

20 Senior Director for Our Wild America campaign at 

21 the Sierra Club. The Our Wild America campaign 

22 brings together people from all walks of life to 

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1 secure permanent protections for our nation's 

2 public lands, connect kids and families with 

3 nature nearby, and work to keep dirty fuels in 

4 the ground. 

5 I'm also father of a 10-year-old son and 

6 a 15-year-old daughter, and I testify today on 

7 their behalf and the prosperous future that they 

8 deserve.

9 I fully support the EPA's proposal to 

10 establish the country's first ever carbon 

11 pollution standard that requires all states to 

12 reduce carbon pollution from dirty power plants.

13 Such action by the EPA will help us 

14 assure a clean energy future that no longer 

15 depends upon dirty fossil fuels such as coal, oil 

16 and gas. 

17 This proposed rule provides states the 

18 framework to do so. This rule must not result in 

19 simply swapping out one fossil fuel for another, 

20 such as coal for gas. Doing so would make it 

21 very difficult for states to achieve the 30 

22 percent reduction target, since natural gas and 

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1 associates methane release significant carbon 

2 pollution as well. 

3 The standards must result in states 

4 prioritizing getting our electricity from wind 

5 power, solar power and energy efficiency 

6 measures. That is the quickest and most cost 

7 effective way to achieve the carbon pollution 

8 reductions.

9 We now face an unprecedented 

10 environmental, social and economic challenge. 

11 Top scientists agree that climate disruption is 

12 primarily due to the release of billions of tons 

13 of carbon dioxide and methane from coal, oil and 

14 gas. World leaders in 2008 set a target of not 

15 more than a 3.6 degree Fahrenheit rise in global 

16 temperatures to avoid a climate catastrophe.

17 Scientific modeling asserts that such an 

18 upper limit in average global temperatures will 

19 result in catastrophic events, including sea 

20 level rise, super storms, drought, and mass 

21 extinctions.

22 Burning global oil, gas and coal reserves 

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1 that release another 500 billion tons of carbon 

2 dioxide into the air would push us past this 3.6 

3 degree Fahrenheit tipping point. This means that 

4 at current global emission rates of 31 billion 

5 tons of carbon dioxide year, the world would 

6 exceed that 500 billion tons of carbon dioxide 

7 emissions by 2030, only fifteen years from now.

8 The U.S. must be a world leader and lead 

9 the way on quickly moving from carbon pollution 

10 energy sources to clean renewable energy sources 

11 and greater energy efficiency. 

12 On Sunday, September 21st, my wife, my 

13 son, daughter and I will join hundreds of 

14 thousands of other Americans to march in the 

15 streets of New York City and demand meaningful 

16 international action to reduce carbon pollution 

17 during the U.N. Climate Summit. 

18 Buses are being organized to bring people 

19 to New York from across the country, including 

20 from Pittsburgh and other places in Pennsylvania.

21 2030 is only 15 years away. By 2030, my 

22 son and daughter will be in the work force and 

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1 starting their own families. I have a

2 responsibility and a right to do everything I can 

3 as a father to ensure that our nation will not be 

4 a place where fossil fueled climate disruption 

5 has plunged our country into an unstable 

6 existence, dominated by super storms, drought and 

7 flooding.

8 Acting now to curb carbon pollution gives 

9 my son and daughter a fighting chance at a future 

10 where they and their new families will have clean 

11 air, plentiful water and a prosperous society. A 

12 place where they can explore and enjoy a 

13 country's wondrous bounty of wild places and 

14 wildlife. Thank you for your time.

15 MS. ESHER: Thank you. So Mr. McKenna?

16 MR. MCKENNA: Good afternoon. My name is 

17 David is McKenna, M-c-K-e-n-n-a.

18 I am 70 years old and a retired 

19 registered nurse. I think it is fair enough to 

20 say that most of my 30 years nursing career was 

21 preventative in nature. And yes, there was a 

22 good deal of responder activity as well. 

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1 But I choose to emphasize the prevention 

2 aspect. That is, I believe, the thing that has 

3 motivated me to volunteer for the past two months 

4 with Penn Environment, making phone calls to 

5 explain to people the proposals that you, the 

6 EPA, have recently promulgated.

7 I have been reading everything I can get 

8 my hands on regarding carbon dioxide pollution. 

9 Last evening at home I read an article published 

10 two days ago about a researcher at the University 

11 of Illinois Chicago, who has successfully found a 

12 new catalyst that converts CO2 into fuel. 

13 His name is Amin Salehi-Khojin, and I 

14 hope I pronounced that correctly. A professor of 

15 mechanical and industrial engineering. In his 

16 words, and I quote, "With this catalyst we can 

17 directly reduce carbon dioxide to syngas,"

18 unquote, and "Our whole purpose is to move from 

19 laboratory experiments to real world 

20 applications. This is a real breakthrough that 

21 can take a waste gas, carbon dioxide, and use 

22 inexpensive catalysts to produce another source 

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1 of energy at large scale while making a healthier 

2 environment," unquote. I can provide the 

3 citation for that.

4 That is prevention. To the opponents of 

5 your present proposals I pose this question. 

6 Since you have met the EPA proposals in the past, 

7 what makes you think America would be unable to 

8 develop new technology presently to meet future 

9 needs for both electricity, our grandchildren and 

10 the health of the planet.

11 Let me conclude quoting Robert Frost. 

12 "To roads diverged in a wood and I chose the one 

13 less traveled by and that has made all the 

14 difference."

15 The whole world, China, Canada, England, 

16 Germany, Australia and many other countries have 

17 already placed themselves or a road to the 

18 future. Here in the United States we have the 

19 skill, and intelligence, and research 

20 capabilities to develop new technologies to build 

21 that road into the future. Thank you, EPA, for 

22 taking the lead in this regard, and thank you for 

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1 this opportunity to address you.

2 MS. ESHER: Thank you, gentlemen. Our 

3 next two speakers are Bret Smith and Rosalie 

4 Finkelstein. 

5 So let me just repeat those. Bret Smith 

6 and Rosalie Finkelstein. Oh, there we go. Thank 

7 you. And when you're ready. You can take a 

8 minute to settle in.

9 MS. FINKELSTEIN: Okay. My name is 

10 Rosalie Finkelstein and I am reading on behalf of 

11 Edward J. Zygmunte.

12 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell both 

13 names?

14 MS. FINKELSTEIN: My name is 

15 R-o-s-a-i-l-e and my last name is 

16 F-i-n-k-e-l-s-t-e-i-n. And his name is 

17 E-d-w-a-r-d, J, J is his middle initial, and 

18 Z-y-g-m-u-n-t.

19 "I speak to you today as someone whose 

20 family has had an historic relationship with the 

21 coal industry. Unfortunately, our relationship 

22 has not been a positive one. Both of my 

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1 grandfathers were coal miners in Luzerne County 

2 in the early 20th century. I never met my 

3 paternal grandfather because he died a slow 

4 agonizing death from black lung before I was 

5 born."

6 "My only remembrance of my maternal 

7 grandfather was lying on his bed gasping for air 

8 as he was attached to an oxygen tank."

9 "I still remember as a small child the 

10 local coal company dumping their waste coal in a 

11 huge heap behind my grandparent's house. The 

12 coal companies did so because there were no 

13 regulations in place to stop them."

14 "This huge coal pile stains the stream 

15 that flows lifelessly through my home town. Yes, 

16 history has vividly shown us what happens when 

17 the necessary regulations to protect our health 

18 and the environments are not in place." 

19 "Today, as an avid angler, it pains me to 

20 find over these -- over three pages of fish 

21 consumption advisories for mercury pollution in 

22 the summary book of regulations that comes with 

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1 my fishing license."

2 "Mercury pollution caused by coal fire 

3 electric power plants, in my view, is a national 

4 disgrace. I am grateful to the EPA for recently 

5 enacting new regulations that will greatly reduce 

6 this toxic source of pollution." 

7 "Please note that despite the predictions 

8 of the coal and electric utility industries, our 

9 lights have not going out because of these new 

10 regulations. Now I believe the time has come for 

11 EPA to take the next logical step to protect our 

12 health, our environment and our economy by 

13 enacting the proposed Clean Power Plan for 

14 Existing Power Plants and Carbon Pollution 

15 Standard for Modified Sources."

16 "As a lifelong outdoors man, I have 

17 personally witnessed many adverse impacts to our 

18 fish and wildlife and their critical habitat 

19 caused by greenhouse gas emissions from coal 

20 fired fire plants."

21 "Pennsylvania state fish, the Eastern 

22 Brook Trout is in serious decline because of 

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1 warming stream temperatures. The smallmouth bass 

2 population on the Middle and Lower Susquehanna 

3 River is also meeting the same fate. And many of 

4 our headwater screens have been ravaged by the 

5 increased frequency and intensity of rain events 

6 that cause unnatural stream bank erosion."

7 "Recently the Pennsylvania Game 

8 Commission reduced the hunting season for 

9 Snowshoe Hare, because on average our winters are 

10 warmer, which translates into less snow cover to 

11 protect hares."

12 "Pennsylvania's state tree, the Easter 

13 Hemlock, is in serious trouble from a disease 

14 known as the Wooley Adelgid -- I never know how 

15 to say this word. Adelgid -- Adelgid -- someone 

16 help me out. Okay, well, people know what I 

17 mean. Mild winters are also being blamed for the 

18 forest pests." 

19 "Humans, too, are not immune to the 

20 effects of climate change caused by unregulated 

21 greenhouse gases. The number of Americans 

22 inflicted with pollution related lung cancer, 

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1 asthma and allergies should concern us all."

2 "Just a couple of decades ago Lyme

3 disease was something we never heard of. Today 

4 the number of Americans inflicted with this 

5 debilitating disease is grown exponentially."

6 "Once again, warmer winter temperatures 

7 are to blame for the -- sorry, guys this happens 

8 when I'm nervous -- of Lyme infected ticks."

9 "In addition to human health and the 

10 environment, greenhouse gas emissions have a huge 

11 negative impact to our economy. Outdoor 

12 recreation, agriculture and the forest products 

13 industry contribute billions to the nation's 

14 economy."

15 "We should all agree that America cannot 

16 afford to lose these job sustaining industries 

17 because of a preventable problem."

18 "On the flip side increased healthcare 

19 cost from pollution related illnesses are 

20 unnecessarily draining our financial resources. 

21 We cannot afford to pay the exorbitant cost of 

22 these preventable diseases."

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1 "It is for these reasons above and many 

2 more which I do not have the time to list, is why 

3 I strongly support EPA's Clean Power Plan for 

4 Existing Power Plants and Carbon Pollution 

5 standard from Modified Sources."

6 "There should be no doubt that we can 

7 have clean air, have clean water and a healthy 

8 economy. Indeed, a healthy economy demands that 

9 we have both clean air and clean water." Thank 

10 you for the opportunity to present my views in 

11 behalf of this man on this critically important 

12 issues.

13 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Rosalie. Mr. 

14 Smith?

15 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, and thank you 

16 to EPA for holding these public hearings on the 

17 proposed Clean Power Plan.

18 My name is Bret Smith and I am Senior 

19 Director of Government relations for the American 

20 Iron and Steel Institute or AISA. 

21 AISI serves as the voice of the North 

22 American steel industry in the public policy 

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1 arena and advanced the case for steel in the 

2 marketplace as the preferred material of choice.

3 AISI is composed of 22 member companies, 

4 including both integrated and electric arc 

5 furnace steelmakers and approximately 125 

6 associate members who are suppliers, too, or 

7 customers of our industry. AISI member companies 

8 represent over three-quarters of both the United 

9 States and North American steel capacity. 

10 Steel and other manufacturing industries 

11 are the backbone of the U.S. economy. A strong 

12 manufacturing sector creates significant benefits 

13 for society, including good paying jobs, 

14 investments in research and development, 

15 essential materials for our national defense, and 

16 high value exports. A robust steel industry in 

17 America is critical to leading the domestic 

18 economy. 

19 Our AISI members are doing everything 

20 they can to reduce their energy usage as well as 

21 their environmental footprints and have been 

22 doing so for at least the past two decades.

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1 The domestic steel industries voluntarily 

2 reduced its energy intensity by 28 percent since 

3 1990, while reducing its GHG emissions by 33 

4 percent over that same period.

5 In fact, data presented by the U.S. 

6 Department of Energy recently show that the steel 

7 industry in the U.S. has the lowest energy 

8 intensity and second lowest CO2 emissions 

9 intensity of any major steel producing country.

10 Nevertheless, the production of steel is 

11 inherently energy intensive. As energy typically 

12 accounts for 20 percent or more of the cost of 

13 making a ton of steel. The industry consumes 

14 substantial amounts of electricity, natural gas 

15 and coal to make our products, maintaining 

16 affordable and reliable sources of these energy 

17 sources are critical to the international 

18 competitiveness of our industry.

19 Steel producers in America are currently 

20 under substantial challenges from international 

21 competitors. The American Steel Industry is once 

22 again facing a surge in unfairly traded imports 

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1 from multiple countries. Countries like China 

2 and Turkey continue to disrupt world markets by 

3 subsidizing the production and exportation of 

4 steel by their producers. The overall surge in 

5 imports has led some steel producers to file 

6 trade cases on five different products and a 

7 number of facilities have already been idled and 

8 workers have lost their jobs.

9 In several recent cases foreign steel 

10 producers were receiving below market rates for 

11 electricity, which constitutes a subsidy. These 

12 types of foreign government interventions are 

13 creating global overcapacity in steel and a surge 

14 of steel imports into the U.S., inhibiting our 

15 industry's ability to recover fully from the 

16 recent economic downturn.

17 For the steel industry operating in the 

18 U.S. under tight margins with substantial 

19 subsidized competition from overseas, policies 

20 that raise energy cost on domestic companies 

21 threaten our competitiveness. 

22 The proposed Clean Power Plan will impose 

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1 direct requirements on the electric utility 

2 sector and not directly on its customers. But 

3 it's the customers that will bear the cost 

4 associated with the compliance and reliability 

5 risk of the proposal.

6 Our principal concern is that this may 

7 lead to higher electricity cost to large 

8 industrial customers like steel, while 

9 potentially lessening the quality and reliability 

10 of the electricity supply that's essential for 

11 our industry to operate and to succeed.

12 The economic impact will be particularly 

13 impactful for the steel industry, given the 

14 regional differences in current fuel mix for the 

15 industry. The CPP will have a disproportionate 

16 impact on coal fired utilities, and there's a 

17 high correlation between the service area of 

18 those utilities and the location of steel 

19 production facilities.

20 The leading states in terms of iron and 

21 steel production in the U.S. are Indiana, Ohio, 

22 Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Michigan and Alabama. 

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1 All of these states are heavily dependent on coal 

2 for their electricity production, in turn, so is 

3 our industry, industrial customers especially. 

4 Steel producers will be charged to offset the 

5 cost of replacing coal capacity with other 

6 sources, including the cost of transmission 

7 infrastructure.

8 Additionally, the impact of other 

9 proposed or pending EPA regulations of the 

10 utility sector like the mercury and air toxic 

11 standards, the cross state air pollution rule, 

12 the clean water section, 316(b), cooling water 

13 intake structures and coal combustion and 

14 residuals will all have an impact on coal fired 

15 utilities, and therefore threaten the 

16 availability and reliability of electricity to 

17 large industrial customers like the steel 

18 industry.

19 Another significant concern that these 

20 proposed regulations do not reflect our -- is 

21 that these proposed regulations do not reflect 

22 the fact that these efforts to address climate 

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1 change can only be effective when undertaken on a 

2 global basis. Limitations on CO2 emissions 

3 instituted in the United States must apply at the 

4 same level of stringency to other major steel 

5 producing nations such as China, otherwise, the 

6 competitiveness of energy intensive trade exposed 

7 domestic manufacturers such as steel in the 

8 global marketplace could be lessened.

9 The end result will be that steel 

10 production and manufacturing jobs will shift to 

11 other nations with weaker, less costly 

12 regulations where steel production is less energy 

13 efficient and more environmentally harmful. 

14 In conclusion, again, thank you for the 

15 ability to speak on this proposed rule today. 

16 The domestic steel industry has substantial 

17 concerns with the clean power plan, proposed by 

18 the EPA and that it may unilaterally raise the 

19 cost of electricity to large industrial customers

20 like steel, while potentially lessening the 

21 reliability of our electricity supply. 

22 They will put the steel producers in the 

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1 U.S. at a disadvantage against competitors and 

2 other nations which often subsidize electricity 

3 cost and generally have higher rates of GHG 

4 emissions. Such a result would not only be 

5 detrimental to our domestic industry and our 

6 employees, but to the larger global environment. 

7 Thank you. 

8 MS. ESHER: Thank you both. Any 

9 questions from the panel? 

10 Thank you very much. We have one more 

11 speaker at this point, Marlene Van Es. I hope I 

12 pronounced your name correctly. 

13 MS. VAN ES: My name is Marlene Van 

14 Es, and I'm reading this on behalf of Grant La 

15 Rouche of the National Wildlife Federation.

16 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell the names?

17 MS. VAN ES: Sure. Marlene, 

18 M-a-r-l-e-n-e, Van Es, V-a-n space E-s. And 

19 Grant La Rouche, G-r-a-n-t, La Rouche, L-a, 

20 space, R-o-u-c-h-e.

21 "Thank you for this opportunity to submit 

22 formal testimony regarding EPA's proposed Clean 

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1 Power Plan. My name is Grant La Rouche from 

2 Annapolis, Maryland and I want to express my 

3 strong support for EPA's historic action to 

4 combat climate change by setting limits on carbon 

5 pollution from existing power plants."

6 "As a father, I believe we, the people of 

7 the United States of America, have an obligation 

8 to protect our children and future generations 

9 from the impacts of climate change."

10 "As an angler and outdoor enthusiast, I 

11 also believe we have an obligation to protect the 

12 fish and wildlife on the front lines of our 

13 changing climate. I applaud the EPA for taking 

14 action to combat the root of the problem, carbon 

15 pollution."

16 "Growing up in Pennsylvania, I was 

17 confident that my home would be there for me 

18 whenever I needed it. When I look outside the 

19 window of my house on the coast of the Chesapeake 

20 Bay, I know my son won't have that same 

21 opportunity."

22 "I witnessed the damage of the extreme 

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1 weather fueled by climate change in the small 

2 island communities in the Chesapeake Bay where 

3 entire ways of life have been lost to rising 

4 tides."

5 "I've witnessed swarms of ticks that only 

6 the most toxic of chemicals can repel when I take 

7 my four-year-old out into the woods." 

8 "I've witnessed the millions of dollars 

9 needed to clean up after Super Storm Sandy. For 

10 these reasons I applaud EPA for taking much 

11 needed steps to reverse the course we are 

12 currently on."

13 "The U.S. EPA's Clean Power Plan is a 

14 major step in the right direction. This plan will 

15 help speed the way towards a future in which we 

16 can invest more in wildlife friendly sources of 

17 clean energy and less in fuels that pollute or 

18 air and water and harm our global climate."

19 "America was built on innovation. It's 

20 time we challenge the biggest polluters to find a 

21 way to be profitable or pass the torch to those 

22 who are willing to keep America the world's 

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1 leader in innovation."

2 "By stimulating innovative solutions and 

3 reducing reliance on coal burning for power 

4 generation in the U.S., the Clean Power Plan will 

5 help protect fish and wildlife. This rule will 

6 recuse the need for more coal mining that's 

7 destroying our wildlife's habitat with forest 

8 fragmentation, chemicals and carbon pollution."

9 "As you finalize the standard, I ask that 

10 you work to ensure that it achieves the deepest 

11 reductions possible by requiring states to use 

12 fish and wildlife friendly renewable energy and 

13 energy efficiency, and not simply more natural 

14 gas burning."

15 "Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

16 today and we look forward to working with you to 

17 finalize and implement the Clean Power Plan. We 

18 hope you will do everything you can to ensure it 

19 stays strong through the process. Wildlife and 

20 future generations are counting on your 

21 leadership. Thank you. 

22 MS. ESHER: Thank you very much. At this 

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1 point we do not have any speakers that are ready 

2 to come up to the podium, so we'll take a short 

3 break until we get another list of speakers.

4 [Recess from 1:52 to 1:54 p.m.]

5 MS ESHER: And while we're settling in 

6 let me just remind people, if you are going to 

7 speak, it would have been helpful if you had 

8 registered at the desk. But if you didn't, just 

9 come up here and let us know and we'll get you up 

10 to the podium. So Thank you. 

11 So Ms. Albright, when you're ready?

12 MS. ALBRIGHT: Okay. My name is Etta 

13 Albright, E-t-t-a, A-l-b-r-i-g--h-t, and I 

14 registered to testify as a wife, mother and 

15 grandmother. 

16 Environmental health is sacred. Do no 

17 more harm. Unhealthy, addictive lifestyles are 

18 difficult to erase and overcome. I trust other 

19 organizations will cover the current scientific 

20 data on which remains for the impact on our 

21 environment from which many friends before us he 

22 been sounding. 

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1 The increase in intensity and relation of 

2 weather patterns with harmful impact, the 

3 shifting habitats of species in response to these 

4 changes, the impact on health from industry.

5 What I hope we'll accomplish will go much 

6 deeper to the mere fabric of decision making and 

7 the impact on others.

8 The EPA has made extended room in the 

9 course for stewardship and sustainability for 

10 goodness sake. While the humans for the Clean

11 Power Plan are directed to reduce carbon 

12 pollution from the coal plants, they have a far 

13 greater impact on all areas of energy production 

14 needs. 

15 As a former state employee, as a 

16 registered nurse in an institution for those who 

17 are mentally retarded, mentally ill, I enjoyed 

18 the freedom of doing the best I could while 

19 embracing potential harmful conditions impacting 

20 quality of life. 

21 Through effective leadership in various 

22 groups and individuals, including state agencies, 

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1 tremendous changes were sought, been directed and 

2 are improving quality of life for all. Those 

3 were the days before profit was placed ahead of 

4 quality of life as a woman in environmental 

5 health.

6 The ability and opportunity to speak 

7 truth with respect for knowledge and 

8 understanding has been the tool for many to 

9 implement that is making changes for the good of 

10 all. However, what our leaders to both 

11 democratic and republican leaders is a process of 

12 government with a serious question as to the 

13 environment of employees being able to do their 

14 job without retaliation from often vindictive 

15 driven personalities whose only love and 

16 livelihood is dependent on the production and 

17 consumption of coal and other fossil fuels.

18 I find the administration in control of 

19 our processes of government are egregious, 

20 powerful individuals threatening and have asked 

21 for the assurance of the Environmental Protection 

22 agency be granted assurances that their jobs will 

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1 be protected for what see established in truth 

2 based on valuable and clean science along with 

3 what we see mandated, the need for new scientific 

4 data to support any industry's claim that such 

5 and such industry is safe. And this currently 

6 is with Marcellus Shale Industrial Complex, 

7 allowing industries to put volumes of known and 

8 unknown toxins into the air and water and then 

9 tell citizens to prove it's harmful and places 

10 cognitive dissidence and hopelessness against the 

11 power industrial barrens, and to be told to trust 

12 he judgment of profit driven industry opposed to 

13 having enforceable regulations to set healthy 

14 standards to discourage and control adversarial 

15 home for behaviors. It is enabling the 

16 destructive behaviors based on our country's 

17 history.

18 The simple picture is this. Without 

19 regulations industry carries actual and perpetual 

20 damaging harmful situation and then expects you, 

21 the citizen, to take responsibility. This 

22 behavior is against the fabric of good being and 

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1 feeds the venom of unhealthy destructive 

2 relationships.

3 We must do better. Just the other day a 

4 newspaper article announced the U.S. will sell 

5 dirty coal to other nations. This is 

6 unbelievable and it is tainting my status as a 

7 U.S. citizen. Now you would ask, what companies 

8 are going to be able to sell this dirty coal to 

9 other nations and cause the same kind of problems 

10 there as they're trying to escape her. 

11 And to do research to find the current 

12 status of a national energy policy, I came across 

13 this National Energy Policy Development. WTRG 

14 Economics and Surplus that it refers to this 

15 cite. What it is is a report on the National

16 Energy Policy Development Group that says America 

17 must have an energy policy that proves for the 

18 future that meets the needs of today.

19 I believe we can develop very much of our 

20 resources and protect our environment. That was 

21 President George Bush in 2001. Whatever happened 

22 to that energy policy, or is it a place that we 

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1 could revisit and insist that our nation does 

2 have an energy policy opposed to these types of 

3 crisis management.

4 I think we can do better. I would think 

5 a great deal of common knowledge went into the 

6 preparation of the aforementioned document and it 

7 could be used to build on. Crisis management is 

8 not leadership. Thank you for this opportunity.

9 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Mr. Nezbeth? Ms. 

10 Albright, would you mind remaining at the podium 

11 until both of your have finished?

12 MS. ALBRIGHT: Oh, I'm sorry.

13 MS. ESHER: Thank you. That's okay. 

14 Thank you very much. 

15 MR. NEZBETH: Good afternoon. My name is 

16 Matthew Nezbeth, M-a-t-t-h-e-w, N-e-z, as in 

17 zebra, b-e-t-h. And I am a soon to be graduate 

18 of the University of Pittsburgh.

19 I'm here today to voice my opinion, very 

20 strongly I might add, in favor of the EPA's Clean 

21 Power Plan. I could sit here and read you a list 

22 of scientific evidence that points undeniably to 

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1 the fact that climate change is real, 

2 anthropogenic and that we are already feeling the 

3 effects of it today.

4 But that's not what I'm here to do. I 

5 would like to take what I believe to be a much 

6 more productive and effective course in making a 

7 difference by debunking the myth that climate 

8 change action is a battle of costs and jobs 

9 versus the environment, because this simply could 

10 not be further from the truth.

11 In regards to cost, just in the last 

12 decade advances in solar panel technology have 

13 brought the price of solar panels down from about 

14 $2.00 per watt to as low as 52 cents per watt. A 

15 five kilowatt residential installation can be as 

16 low as $10,000 and when considering 30 percent 

17 federal tax credit and other state dependent 

18 incentives, you could have a solar system for as 

19 little as $4,000.

20 Depending on how you conserve energy and 

21 the possibility of a net metering agreement with 

22 a local utility, or being able to sell excess 

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1 generation to the utility at retail price, the 

2 return on investment can be faster than what you 

3 would expect.

4 The Department of Energy's Sun Shot 

5 initiative is a decade long project focused on 

6 making solar energy completely cost competitive 

7 at about six cents per kilowatt hour. Just three 

8 years into the project we are already over 60 

9 percent of the way there.

10 With further advances from funding and 

11 projects like this one, solar ca become an 

12 economical and effective solution in the next few 

13 years. When it comes to jobs, the idea of 

14 investing in renewable energy becomes even more 

15 appealing. Exactly how many people work in the 

16 coal industry? According to the Mine Health and 

17 Safety Administration, there were 137,361 coal 

18 mining employees in 2012. 

19 With the rules proposed by the Clean 

20 Power Plan, many people, especially in the coal 

21 industry fear for the loss of their jobs and 

22 falling on hard economic times. 

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1 But I'm here to tell you this does not 

2 have to be the case. In 2013, a new solar 

3 project was installed every four minutes and the 

4 U.S. solar jobs grew by 20 percent.

5 According to solar foundation's national 

6 solar job census of 2013, solar now employs 

7 142,698 American workers at 18,000 locations in 

8 all 50 states. The industry also continues to 

9 create jobs more than ten times faster than all 

10 the sectors of the U.S. economy. 

11 Solar industry employees expect to 

12 increase their work force by 24 percent in the 

13 next year. With that said, I believe the EPA, 

14 working together with the renewable energy 

15 industry, and the Department of Energy Sun Shot 

16 initiative should work hard to ensure the people 

17 whose jobs might be adversely affected by the 

18 Clean Power Plan are well thought of in the 

19 planning process.

20 I would like to close with a quote that 

21 happens to be a favorite of mine from John F. 

22 Kennedy's address at Rice University, September 

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1 12th, 1962 in which he was trying to persuade the 

2 American people to support a manned space flight 

3 to the moon. In the address he says, "We choose 

4 to go to the moon in this decade and do the other 

5 things, not because they are easy, but because 

6 they are hard."

7 I know this was a different time and 

8 different circumstances, but where has that drive 

9 for progress gone? We are a country build on 

10 initiative and innovation and we need to get back 

11 to that. NASA was able to put a man on the moon 

12 in a decade. I firmly believe that if we put our 

13 differences aside and come together, we can put 

14 together an effective plan to mitigate the 

15 effects of climate change and help maintain a 

16 beautiful, livable planet for many generations to 

17 come.

18 It is time to stop making excuses and 

19 start making solutions for the global problem of 

20 climate change. The Clean Power Plan isn't the 

21 solution, but it's a large step in the right 

22 direction. Thank you for your time.

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1 MS. ESHER: Any questions from the 

2 panelists? Thank you both very much.

3 MR. NEZBETH: Thank you. 

4 MS. ESHER: Our next speaker is 

5 Christopher Burk. It could be Christopher Buck, 

6 I can't quite --

7 MR. BURK: Burk, B-u-r-k.

8 MS. ESHER: Burk? Great. B-u-r-k. 

9 Thank you, Mr. Burk. When you're ready.

10 MR. BURK: Good afternoon. I appreciate 

11 the opportunity to speak with you today. My name 

12 is Christopher Burk, B-u-r-k, and I am speaking 

13 on behalf of the Electric Reliability 

14 Coordinating Council, the ERCC.

15 ERCC is a broad based coalition of energy 

16 companies that works to ensure that consumers 

17 across the United States to continue to have 

18 reliable, affordable and environmentally 

19 responsible power. 

20 Climate change policy is complicated and 

21 it involves many difficult choices and careful 

22 balancing of costs, risks and benefits. And it 

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1 must take into account the international measure 

2 of carbon emissions. This attempt to establish a 

3 nationwide energy and electricity policy through 

4 EPA regulations, however, is not the best path 

5 for this policy debate.

6 ERCC shares the concerns about the EPA's 

7 proposal that have been raised by many state 

8 officials, energy companies, small business 

9 owners, manufacturers, union members, legal 

10 experts and individuals.

11 This proposal is an unprecedented use of 

12 an obscure provision of the Clean Air Act that 

13 threatens the reliability of our country's 

14 electricity supply and will result in 

15 significantly higher energy cost, and without 

16 appreciable benefits.

17 Overall, EPA should not finalize the 

18 proposal as written and should provide additional 

19 time for comments and analyses to be prepared. 

20 The reliability risk created by this proposal are 

21 significant and need to be analyzed carefully 

22 prior to the adoption of climate change policies 

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1 at the federal and state level.

2 When electricity is unreliable, 

3 vulnerable populations can face life threatening 

4 conditions as a result of heat or cold, and the 

5 basic functioning of our economy is imperiled. 

6 EPA's proposal increases the risk that 

7 our electricity supply will be less reliable. 

8 EPA's building blocks require the states seeking 

9 EPA approval reconfigure how electricity is 

10 generated and how it is dispatched. At the 

11 time -- at the end of the process the proposal 

12 also promises that almost a third of the existing 

13 coal fired generation fleet will be retired 

14 between 2020 and 2022.

15 These plants currently provide 

16 electricity that sustains our economy and the 

17 health and well-being of our citizens. When these 

18 plants are shuttered, our electricity supply will 

19 be entirely dependent on EPA predictions about 

20 energy efficiency and the growth of costly 

21 underdeveloped alternative energies. 

22 Our fear is that without these generating 

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1 facilities, another polar vortex or heat wave may 

2 expose the vulnerabilities and subject citizens 

3 and businesses to energy shortages and price 

4 shocks. 

5 EPA is not in the best position to craft 

6 reliability policies, and EPA has never been 

7 tasked with this authority by Congress.

8 The most effective reliability policies 

9 result from the careful coordination between the 

10 federal energy regulatory commission, state and 

11 regional regulators, reliability organizations 

12 and other stakeholders. 

13 And under this proposal, EPA would be 

14 given the power to trump their decisions by 

15 approving or disapproving state energy policies. 

16 ERCC is also concerned because EPA's 

17 proposal will increase electricity prices for 

18 households and businesses. In fact, EPA admits 

19 that the electricity prices will increase between 

20 six and seven percent nationally in 2020 as a 

21 result of the rule, and some areas facing double 

22 digit increases in electricity prices. 

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1 These increases are uniquely harmful to 

2 vulnerable populations such as the poor and the 

3 elderly, because the money needed to pay for 

4 electricity can directly trade off with their 

5 ability to purchase services and products, 

6 including those essential to their health and 

7 well-being.

8 Even small increases in electricity 

9 prices may be harmful, because they are increase 

10 the operating cost for manufacturers, schools and 

11 hospitals, for example.

12 Those costs will reverberate through all 

13 other sectors of the economy and our daily life. 

14 The result will be higher prices, fewer jobs and 

15 a slower economy.

16 EPA has attempted to camouflage these 

17 increases by promising that they will save 

18 households money by encouraging them to use less 

19 electricity. That's cold comfort. Knowing that 

20 the government is trying to make you use less 

21 electricity will do nothing to help people on 

22 fixed incomes who have to run their air 

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1 conditioning units longer during a heat wave or 

2 heat their homes during a cold snap because of 

3 the promise of a greater efficiency or lower cost 

4 sometime in the next decade will not pay their 

5 bills at the end of the next month.

6 Some proponents today and at other 

7 hearings seem to think that the proposed rule 

8 will reduce asthma. Because the rule produces 

9 little, if any, benefits, EPA appears to 

10 purposely confuse the rule with one design to 

11 address conventional air emissions. In fact, the 

12 EPA admits that conventional air pollution has 

13 been on the decline for many years, and the 

14 Agency has adopted a number of other rules that 

15 directly affect these sort of emissions, and it 

16 now claims that it would be reducing he same by 

17 the carbon rule.

18 Put another way, the Agency continues to 

19 pile on new regulatory cost but claims the same 

20 old benefits as it used to justify other costly 

21 rules. This is called double counting and EPA 

22 should know better.

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1 Carbon emissions are a global rule, an 

2 issue, finally. Indeed, the carbon emissions 

3 have been stable or in decline over the past 

4 decade. In contrast, U.S. emissions have been 

5 stable or in decline over the last decade. In 

6 contract, Chinese emissions have increased and 

7 Indian emissions have increased substantially. 

8 Therefore, climate policy requires a cooperative 

9 approach incorporating coordinated legislation, 

10 international diplomacy and a deliberative 

11 process.

12 The current EPA proposal, however, is the 

13 wrong path. It is risky and expensive and comes 

14 with real risk. I thank you for your time.

15 MS. ESHER: Thank you very much. Any 

16 questions from the panel? Thank you, sir.

17 MR. BURK: May we submit the written 

18 report?

19 MS. ESHER: Yes. You can give it to us. 

20 That's very helpful, thank you. 

21 Our next two speakers are Donna Badger 

22 Kopnitsky -- I'm sorry if I mispronounced that --

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1 and John Detwiler. When you're comfortable and 

2 ready -- did I get your name right, Kopnitsky.

3 MS. KOPNITSKY: Kopnitsky, right. Okay. 

4 K-o-p-n-i-t-s-k-y.

5 Hello, my name is Donna Badger Kopnitsky 

6 and I'm here to support the Clean Power Plan. I 

7 recently received a master of science of 

8 sustainable systems, and one thing I learned 

9 while studying sustainable systems is that our 

10 earth is one huge ecosystem comprising thousands 

11 of smaller ecosystems, all delicately interwoven 

12 and interdependent. 

13 Another point I learned is that 

14 greenhouse gases are necessary. Without them --

15 without -- they make a blanket covering the 

16 earth, and without them the sun's rays would just 

17 reflect back out into space and we would have no 

18 heat. 

19 But what's been happening for the past 

20 200 years is that we've been thickening this 

21 blanket of greenhouse gases by putting more and 

22 more carbon into the atmosphere. The more carbon 

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1 that goes in, the heavier the blanket and the 

2 warmer the earth gets. Since the beginning of 

3 human civilization, our atmosphere contained 

4 about 275 ppm, which is parts per million of the 

5 ratio of the carbon to all the other molecules in 

6 the atmosphere.

7 As we burn fossil fuels over the past 200 

8 years, the level has now reached 400 ppm. The 

9 considered safe level to avoid tipping points and 

10 irreversible impacts is 350 ppm. If we continue 

11 at our current pace we will not only continue to 

12 destroy the balance of the ecosystems, we could 

13 make the earth uninhabitable for humans.

14 The earth will survive. Our future 

15 generations may not. The earth is already 

16 demonstrating the effects of warming, of which 

17 I'm sure you are all aware, but let me shout out 

18 a few. The sea levels are rising as well as the 

19 water temperatures, which causes more severe 

20 stores and is a threat to coastal cities and 

21 countries. 

22 Droughts and wildfires are ravaging our 

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1 western states, glaciers are melting, the white 

2 ice sheets reflect sun rays back into -- away 

3 from the earth. Now, where the ice used to be, 

4 the tundra that was underneath absorbs the heat. 

5 This and more have a cumulative snowball effect, 

6 and the more that happens, the greater the 

7 effect.

8 Even hear in western Pennsylvania, severe 

9 storms have increased. Until the 1980s, tornados 

10 were rare, likely to happen once every hundred 

11 years, but now it's commonplace to expect a 

12 tornado watch. But that's minor compared to 

13 what's happening around the world, and we are a 

14 global community, and we need to be a world 

15 leader in reducing carbon emissions.

16 And it is imperative that we reduce 

17 carbon emissions now. The changes due to warming 

18 are happening at a rate faster than climate 

19 models predicted, and the carbon that's there 

20 doesn't dissipate quickly, it hangs around a long 

21 time.

22 But we can and need to get it back down 

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1 to 350 ppm. From a scientific viewpoint, there's 

2 no question. So why is there such hesitation 

3 about these standards, these standards that just 

4 began to make a move towards reigning in the 

5 amount of carbon going into the air? This is a 

6 time when all people should slap their hands on 

7 their heads and say yes, we need to do this, it 

8 makes sense. Even if it weren't as dire as the 

9 latest reports are confirming, it would only make 

10 sense to cut the carbon emissions anyway.

11 To not limit the amount of carbon we pump 

12 in the air is not only ludicrous, it's suicidal. 

13 the increased emissions are already leading to 

14 extinctions. How ironic it would be that we wipe 

15 ourselves off the planet due to denial and greed.

16 The opposing viewpoints focus on fear and 

17 scare tactics, primarily fear of losing jobs. 

18 But the real scare is what's happening to our 

19 planet. There are no jobs on a dead planet.

20 We need to work together for a 

21 sustainable future. The companies that make 

22 their fortunes in fossil fuels need to turn to 

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1 renewable energies. Consol Solar sounds pretty 

2 good.

3 The renewable energies are the future. 

4 Put the jobs there. The fossil fuels are not 

5 sustainable. It took the earth millions of years 

6 to make the coal and oil reserves. Let's value 

7 what's left of them. slow down the usage instead 

8 of trying to -- instead of desperately mining and 

9 drilling and releasing the millions of years of 

10 stored carbon that is within them.

11 We can survive any possible economic 

12 effect. We cannot survive increased carbon 

13 levels. I encourage you to fully implement the 

14 carbon power plan --

15 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

16 MS. KOPNITSKY: -- or the Clean Power 

17 Plan.

18 MS. ESHER: And if you could stay there, 

19 please. Mr. Detwiler?

20 MR. DETWILER: J-o-h-n, D-e-t-w-i-l-e-r. 

21 Welcome back to Pittsburgh and thank you for the 

22 opportunity to share these thoughts. By way of 

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1 background, I have a PhD in engineering and I 

2 taught at Carnegie Mellon University. I'm a 

3 registered professional engineer in Pennsylvania 

4 and I've held management positions both in 

5 government, local and federal, and in the 

6 business world in large corporations, and as a 

7 small business owner.

8 I was a road warrior for IBM for several 

9 years and I appreciate the task that you folks 

10 are performing here. So to make it easy for me, 

11 you can tally my remarks under the category, the 

12 proposal doesn't go nearly far enough.

13 I can speak to its other shortcomings, 

14 but I'll focus on fracking. As it stands, the 

15 EPA's proposal simply encourages substituting 

16 natural gas for coal in electric generation. Yet 

17 mounting scientific evidence shows that the 

18 natural gas fuel cycle will be as bad or worse 

19 for the climate.

20 When you leave Pittsburgh this week you 

21 will have gathered your quota of public comments 

22 and you will have tested the political winds, but 

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1 I hope you will take something else back with you 

2 to share with Administrator McCarthy and with 

3 President Obama, and that's courage. Because 

4 this is a timid proposal. At best, it begins to 

5 acknowledge that something needs to be done, but 

6 it doesn't really challenge our business sector, 

7 and it doesn't offer much hope for escaping 

8 climate catastrophe.

9 Now, Pittsburgh knows something about 

10 courage. People here stood up to the armed thugs 

11 of Henry Clay Frick. Ordinary people here have 

12 contended with David Roderick, Don Blankenship, 

13 and Audrey McClendon. We don't start off by 

14 knuckling under the big money or high powered 

15 politics. 

16 For four years now I've been a member of 

17 Marcellus Protest, a grassroots group that worked 

18 to pass the first municipal band on fracking, the 

19 first in the world as far as we know, in 2010.

20 We have no staff, no annual budget, and 

21 no reason to mince words. Some of our members 

22 deliver drinking water to neighbors whose water 

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1 supplies have been destroyed. Some raise money 

2 for air scrubbers for neighbors who can't breathe

3 the air in their own homes. Some hold the hands 

4 of neighbors as they're dying from fracking 

5 related cancers.

6 Marcellus Protest speaks at community 

7 meetings. We educate our local officials, we 

8 carry petitions door to door, we pass the hat. 

9 And some of us have been threatened on the 

10 highways by hostile gas fuel workers. 

11 We do all this not for pay, not for 

12 institutional power jockeying, but because our 

13 families, our communities, our society and 

14 everything we love is threatened with extinction. 

15 We're not dealing with political calculations 

16 about what's possible, what's likely to pass or 

17 who has the votes. We're standing up and 

18 inviting our fellow citizens to do what's 

19 necessary to have a chance of surviving the 

20 climate crisis. 

21 EPA's announcement of this Clean Power 

22 Plan has presented our national a terrible 

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1 choice, and it's a false choice. It's a choice 

2 between supporting a proposal which does a little 

3 bit to address the crisis, and a little bit to 

4 make it worse. First, it's letting this proposal 

5 be defeated by those who want to do nothing about 

6 climate destruction.

7 So the big greens have to line up behind 

8 this proposal, and there's no one but us in the 

9 grassroots to advocate for what's really needed. 

10 Because what we need is a plan that begins to 

11 leave carbon in the ground, not just putting one 

12 fossil fuel in place of another. 

13 We need a plan that tackles extraction, 

14 not one that tinkers with domestic consumption 

15 while sponsoring exports to be burned somewhere 

16 else. We need a plant that talks plainly to the 

17 American people about what's at stake here. Not 

18 these bland bedtime stories about carbon 

19 pollution as if it was just one more high handed 

20 government intrusion into our consumer driven 

21 economy.

22 We need a plan that begins to turn that 

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1 fossil fuel economy around, not one that 

2 encourages investment in more pipelines, more 

3 export terminals, more gas fired generation, and 

4 more and more and more reasons for hearing that 

5 we can't afford to do what we'll have to do in 

6 order to make any real progress in the future.

7 So take that message back with you. If 

8 Washington will exert some leadership, will 

9 demonstrate that our government gets it, then the 

10 grassroots will join with you in fighting for 

11 these proposals. But if you're convinced that 

12 this plan is the best that we can expect from 

13 inside the beltway, the do this. Go into the 

14 office, drop your government ID badges on your 

15 manager's desk and come back to Pittsburgh and 

16 join us. Thanks for listening.

17 MS. ESHER: Thank you both for your 

18 comments. Thank you. 

19 Our next two speakers are Kevin Whalen 

20 and Mike Cashin.

21 I do want to thank the audience for 

22 listening attentively, and being courteous to all 

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1 the speakers, so thank you. I would appreciate 

2 if you would hold your applause. Not only does 

3 it help us to keep things moving along, but it 

4 also keeps the air a little bit more fair for 

5 every speaker. But thank you for your 

6 attentiveness, we really appreciate it. 

7 So Mr. Whalen and Mr. Cashin, Mr. Whalen, 

8 why don't you go first? Thank you. 

9 MR. WHALEN: Well, my background, I have 

10 a bachelor of science in biology with an 

11 environmental concentration. I've been involved 

12 in environmental issues since about 1990 with my 

13 firm and another means by founding several -- or 

14 attempting to found several alternative fuels. 

15 I've trained in installation of solar and wind 

16 power.

17 Since 1990 the CO2 emissions around the 

18 world have risen by 50 percent or more, driven 

19 mostly by China, Asia, South America and Africa. 

20 In 1990 the U.S. accounted for 66 percent of the 

21 world's CO2, and as of the expiration of the 

22 Kyoto Protocol, the U.S. accounts for less than 

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1 50 percent.

2 The U.S. was not signatory to the Kyoto 

3 Agreement, but in November of 2012 we exceeded 

4 the levels of reduction in CO2 emissions that 

5 have been set forth in that protocol. The past 

6 winter we had our polar vortex. In the Midwest 

7 and northeast, where power typically runs $44 a 

8 megawatt hour, the price of power jumped over a 

9 thousand dollars a megawatt hour due to demand. 

10 The demand was only met because of the currently 

11 mothballed coal fired power plants.

12 Coal accounts for 38 percent of the 

13 electric power generated, which is 1340 terawatts 

14 per hour, and the overall demand is expected to 

15 grow by 15 percent by 2030.

16 What can replace expected loss of 24 

17 percent of our coal fired power plants if this 

18 law goes into effect? Currently, nuclear 

19 capacity is less than 20 percent of our current 

20 needs, with existing operational facilities at 

21 levels exceeding 90 percent total capacity, 

22 following 30 plus hears of little to no growth in 

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1 capacity. There is an expectation of six new 

2 units coming on line by 2020, from 16 

3 applications for 24 units filed since 2007. 

4 There have been four units retired in the 

5 last five years and ten more currently operating 

6 units are at risk of closure after 2014, giving 

7 us a net gain by 2020 of minus four.

8 Natural gas, it's not even worth 

9 discussing because the current pipeline 

10 infrastructure cannot support the required growth 

11 to cover the intended loss of capacity. If we 

12 expand the infrastructure to accept the needed 

13 growth, it will take 15 or more years and 

14 actually lead to a net increase of CO2 emissions 

15 by 2030 based on increase demand that's expected.

16 Solar, 140,000 installations last year, 

17 approximately 4,500 megawatts, 3,250 was 

18 commercial and utility and 1,250 was consumer. 

19 It's currently not economical to produce solar 

20 panels due to global over supply. This can be 

21 seen by the failed companies such as Solyndra, 

22 Flabeg, which was here locally.

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1 This, after even taxpayer guaranteed 

2 loans, as well as the loss of tax initiatives has 

3 caused this. Currently there is 13,000 megawatts 

4 of capacity at the end of 2013, and this supply 

5 is not consistent, and capacity varies with 

6 weather. 

7 Wind, at the end of the first quarter of 

8 2014 there was 61,327 megawatts available. 

9 That's less than three percent of our current 

10 need. Again, it's affected by wind -- you know, 

11 affected by the weather and the turbines are 

12 extremely high maintenance. Taking offline will 

13 be frequent.

14 Now, we look at manufacturers of that, 

15 Gamesa, which was here in Pennsylvania, beginning 

16 of this year announced a closure due to a loss of 

17 tax incentives. These tax incentives create a 

18 false need or economy and unfortunately, do not 

19 create the ground swell so many hope for.

20 Again, delays in permitting, fights with 

21 environmental groups, et cetera, have caused 

22 problems. they're not economical to produce or 

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1 install. What else can take the place of these 

2 coal plants? Biomass? Still in its early 

3 stages?

4 Ethanol. It costs three bucks to produce 

5 every dollar's worth of fuel.

6 Algae, still in its early stages and 

7 maybe ten years away from potential full scale 

8 commercial use.

9 The biggest loss, though, is going to be 

10 with jobs and personal financial impact on 

11 consumers and the economy. I'll not bore you 

12 with what's you've heard from everybody else, 

13 including big business and labor. What I'll tell 

14 you about is the backbone for America.

15 You know, you raise my electric bill 300, 

16 400 percent, I can't buy, my purchasing power 

17 goes down. I have a good friend by the name of 

18 Mark Gracy (phonetic), who owns a company called 

19 Bully Tools, which is headquartered over in 

20 Stubenville, Ohio. When I first met him, he had 

21 four employees. He currently has 30, running two 

22 shifts. He's taking back jobs from China. He's 

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1 beating the Chinese at their own game. He's more 

2 competitive.

3 You raise his electric rates 300 to 400 

4 percent, he has two options -- and he told me of 

5 both -- close his plant and close his plant. 

6 How many small businesses will this 

7 affect? How many jobs will be lost to the 

8 overseas. What will it ultimately cost America? 

9 For myself, this law makes no sense. If 

10 I take 24 percent of my fleet of the road and I 

11 decide and try to make ends meet, I got to raise 

12 my prices, and I have to, you know, eventually 

13 wind up going out of business.

14 My opinion, we need to flush this 

15 economic turd.

16 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Mr. Cashin.

17 COURT REPORTER: Can you please spell 

18 your last name?

19 MR. WHALEN: W-h-a-l-e-n.

20 MR. CASHIN: Hi. Michael Cashin, 

21 M-i-c-h-a-e-l, C-a-s-h-i-n.

22 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

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1 MR. CASHIN: Good afternoon. My name is 

2 Michael Cashin. I'm an environmental policy 

3 advisor for Minnesota Power ALLETE. And 

4 Minnesota Power is a small investor owned 

5 electric utility. We're headquartered in Duluth, 

6 Minnesota, and we serve some of the largest 

7 industrial customers in the country.

8 The delivery of reliable, affordable and 

9 environmentally responsible energy services to 

10 our customers with the explicit recognition with 

11 our energy intensive industrial customers need to 

12 remain cost competitive in international markets 

13 is a key tenant to the economic vitality to our 

14 region.

15 More than half of Minnesota Power's 

16 electric output is consumed by 13 large 

17 industrial customers that are energy intensive. 

18 The iron mining sector, which supplies raw 

19 material to the domestic iron and steel industry 

20 represents a large share of our electric sales 

21 and is critically important to Minnesota, 

22 Minnesota Power and indeed to the Pittsburgh area 

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1 as our largest electric power customer, United 

2 States Steel, has its corporate headquarters here 

3 in downtown Pittsburgh.

4 Minnesota Power is implementing our 

5 energy forward strategy, which was part of 

6 Minnesota's integrated resource plan process. 

7 Energy forward is an effective and balanced 

8 response to transition our generation fleet away 

9 from a mix of about 95 percent coal and five 

10 percent renewable starting in 2005, towards the 

11 balanced mix of one-third each of renewable 

12 energy, natural gas, and coal fueled electric 

13 generation by about 2030.

14 Customer conservation improvements and 

15 energy efficiency programs are also a key 

16 component of our energy forward strategy.

17 Minnesota utilities and policymakers have 

18 already been addressing all four of EPA's best 

19 system of emission reduction blogs. Our early 

20 action justifies EPA revising its Minnesota Clean 

21 Power Plan targets so that Minnesota consumers 

22 are not punished for the good deeds our forward 

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1 looking policy makers have already put in place, 

2 and for which Minnesota Power's Electric 

3 customers are already paying.

4 Minnesota's past initiatives have largely 

5 implement the measures identified in three of the 

6 flour blocks proposed by EPA for regulation. 

7 Remaining BSER block two would compel 

8 preferential dispatch of existing natural gas, 

9 combined cycle generation favored over lower cost 

10 coal generation, up to a 70 percent capacity 

11 factor for the existing natural gas combined 

12 cycle generation.

13 But EPA's block two biases natural gas 

14 generation while it ignores Minnesota's all in 

15 integrated resource planning process. It already 

16 considers factors such as the natural gas price 

17 volatility, price risk hedging and the types of 

18 electric generation needed to serve different 

19 customer classes and needs.

20 For example, in Minnesota, we have the 

21 need to serve the metro area daily generation 

22 peaks with volt swings. We have built out of 

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1 wind, which needs intermittent generation support 

2 to compensate for the winds not blowing, which 

3 can amount to over five percent of the time in 

4 our region.

5 And we also have to provide for voltage 

6 support in 24/7 baseload service for large 

7 industrial sources in northeast Minnesota.

8 So EPA's Clean Power Plan upsets the 

9 balance the Minnesota policymakers have strived 

10 to achieve through weighing strong environmental 

11 protections with cost impacts and reliability 

12 requirements in our integrated resource planning 

13 process.

14 So with my remaining time I want to do a 

15 few call outs on the blocks of things that we're 

16 planning on formalizing a bit more by our October 

17 16th callout. And I also thank you for the 

18 opportunity to comment.

19 One of the things involved with block one 

20 is that EPA set up a six percent target, and in 

21 Minnesota, by practice, we've already deployed 

22 the type of efficiency measures that EPA outlined 

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1 in their technical support documentation. 

2 Consequently, we have a rendition of 

3 early action that's applicable for that that's 

4 not getting consideration. Under block two, I 

5 gave reference already to concern about the 

6 natural gas swap over, but it's interesting that 

7 Minnesota is utilizing our gas combined cycle at 

8 about half the level of utilization the EPA says 

9 that the full country is operating at.

10 That raises a red flag for us in terms of 

11 whether the conditions in Minnesota and the 

12 markets have been given consideration. Thank 

13 you. 

14 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Any questions for 

15 our speakers? Thank you both.

16 Our next two speakers are Dustin White 

17 and Representative Mike Foley. Hello. Thank you 

18 very much, and Mr. White, we'll let you go first 

19 and then we'll let -- Representative Foley, we'll 

20 let you end this session and we'll take a five 

21 minute break after you speak. Thank you. 

22 MR. WHITE: Thank you. My name is Dustin 

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1 White, D-u-s-t-i-n, W-h-i-t-e. I am a community 

2 organizer with the Ohio Valley Environmental 

3 Coalition. I am an eleventh generation West 

4 Virginia resident and I am a former coal 

5 supporter.

6 I am here today to represent communities 

7 that I feel are not often mentioned when we talk 

8 about reducing emissions from coal fired power 

9 plants. I am speaking of the communities where 

10 they mine the coal for these power plants. 

11 From the Navajo nation to the Powder 

12 River Basin and to my home in central Appalachia, 

13 people are living in the wake of the extraction 

14 process and can attest that coal, from cradle to 

15 grave, is harmful to public health.

16 I am a southern West Virginian and I have 

17 been around coal all my life. I feel that we 

18 need to talk realistically about the human health 

19 impact of carbon pollution and not just its 

20 contribution to climate change. As a West 

21 Virginian from so called coal country, I support 

22 the EPA's effort, and believe me there are many 

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1 in Appalachia who do as well. We've already 

2 heard from some here and in Denver.

3 You cannot realistically talk about 

4 emissions without discussing the extraction, 

5 because they are, indeed linked. Let's call it 

6 what it is. Coal pollution. By regulating the 

7 amount of pollution that is produced by power 

8 plants, you are also helping limit the amount of 

9 coal that the industry, on a daily basis, rips 

10 from the ground and blows up entire mountains 

11 for.

12 Whether you're living with a coal fired 

13 power plant in your backyard or a mountaintop 

14 removal site above your community, you and your 

15 neighbors are getting sick because of the impacts 

16 to the air quality, among others. The extraction 

17 process, as well as pollution from power plants 

18 is polluting our air, water and land. Coal does 

19 not have a life cycle. It is a slow death march. 

20 I am not a scientist, I'm just a hollow 

21 boy from Boone County, West Virginia, and I can't 

22 sit here and quote statistics. I deal in 

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1 reality.

2 I am living witness to people who are 

3 getting sick and dying from coal related 

4 pollution. There are numerous peer reviewed 

5 scientific studies that help confirm this. I 

6 know the EPA has these studies, so I don't have 

7 to quote them.

8 I can spend hours telling stories of 

9 those who suffer like a 20-year-old girl in my 

10 home county who has multiple types of cancer. At 

11 31 years old, I am now middle aged for a West 

12 Virginian, and have outlived people I played with 

13 as a child.

14 My father, a retired union coal miner 

15 passed away from cancer in March at the age of 

16 65. He and I were impacted in January, along 

17 with over 300,000 others in my state without 

18 water for months when a chemical used by coal, 

19 MCHM, spilled into our public water system. And 

20 just once before another chemical used by coal 

21 DT50D, turned an entire river white for miles.

22 If anyone in the extraction industry 

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1 would like to argue that they have a hard job, 

2 try telling a family that they might be poisoning 

3 their children by bathing them, or try taking 

4 care of your dying bedfast father by melting snow 

5 and boiling creek water.

6 But I know we're here to talk about air 

7 pollution, not water pollution. I'm sure there 

8 are residents living near coal fired power plants 

9 who can tell similar horror stories because they 

10 live near these plants, not to mention the 

11 environmental havoc carbon dioxide reaps on our 

12 planet. There is a war taking place but it is 

13 not on coal.

14 There are those in the coal industry and 

15 in Congress who try to rebuke and cast out on the 

16 science while people, including children, die 

17 from this pollution. They simply do not care. 

18 They only care about their profit and campaign 

19 donations. Politicians, especially the West 

20 Virginia delegation, will contend that jobs are 

21 at risk by regulations the EPA sets forth.

22 This SEIA not true, and most of the coal 

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1 mined back home isn't even for electricity 

2 generation anymore, it's metallurgical. And even 

3 if it were to be true, let's be clear, no one has 

4 a job that's more important than someone else's 

5 health.

6 Coal is an archaic energy source. There 

7 are safer, cleaner ways to produce electricity 

8 where human lives are not sacrificed, and I don't 

9 mean natural gas or nuclear. It is ashamed that 

10 the country that won the arms race and the space 

11 race is now falling behind in the clean energy 

12 race. 

13 Coal pollution of any type is a moral and 

14 human health issue and I urge you the EPA, as 

15 public servants, to protect the public and move 

16 forward with any and all regulations against coal 

17 pollution. We must come together and end coal 

18 cycle of death and the onslaught against the 

19 people. 

20 No one should have to live with the 

21 respiratory issues, the birth defects, cancers 

22 and other health issues that coal is responsible 

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1 for. We in Appalachia are already five minutes 

2 till midnight and we are looking at becoming the 

3 nation's largest super funds site.

4 For the sake of our planet, for the sake 

5 of public health and the sake of prosperity, 

6 let's stop talking and EPA, please, do your job. 

7 Thank you. 

8 MR. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. White. 

9 Representative Foley?

10 MR. FOLEY: Thank you. Good afternoon 

11 everyone, my name is Mike Foley. I'm a State 

12 Representative from the neighboring state of 

13 Ohio. I live in Cleveland and represent the 

14 120,000 people in the 14th House District. 

15 I would like to thank everyone here for 

16 giving me an opportunity to speak on the recently 

17 proposed Clean Power Plan.

18 The well-being of the environment will 

19 has been an issue I've tried to fight for during 

20 my eight-year tenure as a state representative. 

21 As the father of four children who mean the world 

22 to me, I am constantly wondering and worrying 

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1 about what the condition of the planet will be in 

2 10, 20 or 30 years down the road. 

3 We know climate change is occurring and 

4 human made emissions are the largest contributing 

5 factor. These are facts that 97 percent of 

6 scientists agree on and should not be points of 

7 contention or debate.

8 I believe that the United States is 

9 currently at a crossroads. What actions we take 

10 now to mitigate our impact on the environment 

11 will define what happens in our future.

12 Currently, we can already see the effects 

13 of climate change through severe weather events 

14 and warmer than average temperatures, coupled 

15 with one of the coldest winters in recent memory.

16 Glaciers in the Antarctic have begun to 

17 melt and scientists say that the process is now 

18 irreversible. Failure to take action on climate 

19 change means that storms will become stronger and 

20 deadlier. Local ecologies will begin to change, 

21 migration patterns of animals will be disrupted. 

22 At some point if left unabated, migration 

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1 patterns of humans and people will change as 

2 well.

3 As coastal areas, we come under water, 

4 and storms associated with hurricanes, typhoons 

5 and tornados will become more devastating.

6 The signs of a changing world are all 

7 around us and there is no longer time to wait, we 

8 must act immediately.

9 While climate change has been occurring 

10 for some time now, it is an issue that until 

11 recently has been kept out of the spotlight. 

12 Other issues, such as the economy, foreign 

13 policy, have garnered most of the media 

14 attention.

15 However, due to highly publicized 

16 scientific consensus and extreme weather 

17 phenomena, climate change has finally become part 

18 of the mainstream conversation, and I'm happy 

19 about that.

20 People are talking about climate change 

21 because its effects are now impossible to ignore. 

22 The Clean Power Plan, for the first time, allows 

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1 the environment to take center stage, 

2 highlighting the importance of protecting our 

3 planet and ensuring we have a sustainable and 

4 healthy future.

5 Climate change must be considered a moral 

6 imperative for our country if we are to effect 

7 any positive change going forward. The Clean 

8 Power Plan is a crucial step in combating the 

9 effects of climate change.

10 By having power plants reduce their 

11 carbon dioxide emissions by up to 30 percent, we 

12 are making an important and necessary commitment 

13 to the environment. The EPA states that power 

14 plants are the largest emitters of carbon dioxide 

15 in the country, accounting for 38 percent of CO2 

16 emissions. The United States is the second 

17 largest emitter of CO2 in the world behind China.

18 Unfortunately, I know firsthand the 

19 importance of the proposed rule. This past April 

20 the White House released the national assessment 

21 of climate change and it was found that the 

22 Midwest emits 20 percent more greenhouse gasses 

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1 per capita than the national average. This is 

2 due to the Midwest reliance on dirty sources of 

3 energy, mostly because of coal.

4 In my home state of Ohio, the situation 

5 is dire. Ohio is the fourth highest emitter of 

6 carbon dioxide in the nation and fifth highest 

7 emitter of greenhouse gases in the nation. Ohio 

8 is one of the states that would truly benefit 

9 from the enactment of the Clean Power Plan to 

10 help stem the tide of pollutants that we send 

11 into the air.

12 Recently, Ohio took an unprecedented and 

13 irrational step backward by becoming the first 

14 state in the country to freeze a renewable energy 

15 and energy efficiency standards. The renewable 

16 energy and efficiency standards have gotten us on 

17 a path to reducing our impact on the environment 

18 by keeping millions of tons of CO2 out of the 

19 atmosphere.

20 Now, with the future of those standards 

21 up in the air, Ohio runs the risk of returning to 

22 its polluting past. The Clean Power Plan will 

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1 help to ensure that we are continuing down the 

2 path of sustainability even if our standards are 

3 ultimately lowered or repealed. 

4 I know that implementing these new 

5 regulations will be a challenge for our country, 

6 but it is a challenge we must be ready to meet. 

7 Climate change is a problem we must start solving 

8 now. We cannot continue to kick that can further 

9 down the road and keep our heads buried in the 

10 sand.

11 Many will have you believe that the coal 

12 industry cannot afford to have these regulations 

13 put into place but that is not the case. It is a 

14 citizen to the United States that cannot afford 

15 having millions of tons of CO2 pumped into the 

16 atmosphere. And it is our planet that cannot 

17 afford to have us remain indifferent.

18 While we cannot solve the climate change 

19 problem single handedly, this is a major start to 

20 fulfilling our obligations to protect our 

21 planet's environmental health. If we don't lead 

22 the way then who will If we cannot ask ourselves 

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1 to act in the best interest of the environment, 

2 how can we ask other countries to do the same. 

3 We pride ourselves on being leaders in this 

4 world. Well, let's act like it regarding the 

5 most important threat to our existence that we've 

6 ever faced.

7 I am proud to state my support for the 

8 Clean Power Plan. I am proud of our President 

9 and the EPA for being forward thinking and for 

10 putting the needs of our planet over the greed of 

11 big business. I will continue to do whatever I 

12 can to advocate for our environment and for a 

13 planet that is as healthy as can be for my four 

14 children.

15 Again, thank you for letting me speak 

16 here today. And I do want to say I think that it 

17 is just vitally important that the EPA take 

18 action here. I've spent the last six months 

19 fighting against, you know, a retraction of our 

20 clean energy standards in Ohio, and I don't 

21 trust -- I don't trust the state of Ohio to move 

22 forward without federal intervention and federal 

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1 action on forcing us to do the right thing. So I 

2 appreciate your time here.

3 MS. ESHER: Thank you both very much. 

4 And we're going to take a five minute break now. 

5 So thank you, again, to all the audience for 

6 participating.

7 [Recess from 2:42 to 2:56 p.m.]

8 MS. ESHER: Our next two speakers will be 

9 Evan Endrus and Gary Keir. And Mr. Endrus, when 

10 you're ready.

11 MR. ENDRUS: Sure. My name is Evan R. 

12 Endrus. I'm a resident of Pittsburgh, 

13 Pennsylvania, a United States citizen, registered 

14 voter and taxpayer.

15 MR. GORDON: Can you spell your last name 

16 for us?

17 MR. ENDRUS: Last name, E-n-d-r-u-s. 

18 First name Evan, E-v-a-n

19 I'm here today to voice my support for 

20 the EPA's proposed carbon rules as it is critical 

21 to the future health of the American economy. 

22 These rules should be implemented promptly and 

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1 without delay. 

2 My interest in climate change stems from 

3 great concern of the economic consequences of 

4 failing to act. The extreme weather events and 

5 pressure from changes to climate on our 

6 agriculture industries have a real cost that is 

7 borne by all taxpayers. My tax dollars go to 

8 support FEMA, National Flood Insurance programs 

9 and Federal Crop Insurance, all of which are 

10 being utilized more frequently and with greater 

11 cost than ever before.

12 In addition, consumer cost associated 

13 with market disruption from climate related 

14 incidents are impacting consumers, including 

15 myself, at the grocery store.

16 Colder winters and hotter summers put 

17 immediate burden on managing the effects of 

18 climate change on some of our most vulnerable 

19 elderly and low income residents. The cost of 

20 caring for these individuals when they do not 

21 have the resources to endure these extremes is 

22 borne by all of us through funding the public 

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1 health, community and first responder programs, 

2 further increasing taxation and straining local 

3 budgets.

4 The economic benefit associated with 

5 addressing carbon pollution goes far beyond 

6 mitigating the cost of impacts. The EPA outlines 

7 a plan by which states can use renewable energy 

8 and energy efficiency measures to comply. These 

9 strategies will pay dividends to the American 

10 economy in the form of renewable energy and 

11 energy efficiency jobs.

12 The Department of Energy modeling has 

13 shown that Pennsylvania alone could achieve 

14 90,000 jobs from having just 20 percent of our 

15 electricity come from renewable energy sources 

16 like solar and wind by 2030.

17 The cost of doing nothing far outweighs 

18 the cost and benefits to the American economy 

19 associated with implementing and enforcing this 

20 rule. I speak in one hundred percent support of 

21 the Environmental Protection Agency, the proposed 

22 standards you've outlined and your authority 

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1 under the Clean Air Act to enforce them. Thank 

2 you.

3 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Mr. Keir 

4 MR. KEIR: Yeah, my name is Gary Keir, 

5 K-e-i-r, first name Gary, G-a-r-y. Thank you for 

6 this opportunity.

7 I am seeking consideration for carbon 

8 exprint (phonetic) as a viable carbon mitigation 

9 strategy. Carbon exprint is a patent pending 

10 process that certifies carbon allowances by 

11 making a socially responsible investment in 

12 renewable energy and energy efficiency.

13 A company or individual offsets their 

14 carbon footprint by buying a term deposit or bond 

15 from a financial institution or utility. The 

16 instrument is priced at the cost of one ton of 

17 greenhouse gas. One ton is $25, ten tons, $250 

18 and so on.

19 The purchase certifies that the entity 

20 took action for their greenhouse gases. The 

21 financial institution pools these deposits and 

22 dedicates this pool of money to finance energy 

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1 efficiency and renewable energy projects. At the 

2 end of the term, the entity gets their money back 

3 plus interest. 

4 So just a quick recap, the company or 

5 individual has a desire or need to reduce their 

6 carbon footprint. They measure their carbon 

7 footprint. They purchase carbon exprints, CDs or 

8 bonds based on their tons of greenhouse gases. 

9 They're certified for taking responsibility. 

10 That money is then used to finance greenhouse gas 

11 reduction projects. At the end of the term they 

12 get their money back plus interest.

13 How can carbon exprint help ETUs meet 

14 carbon pollution limits? The utility can simply 

15 buy carbon exprints, CDs and bonds as carbon 

16 allowances from financial institutions to reach 

17 the EPA imposed limit. Their money would be tied 

18 up for some time but it would get it back with 

19 interest.

20 During the time the money is tied up, it 

21 would be creating renewable energy, energy 

22 efficiency and reducing greenhouse gasses. This 

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1 is the alternate goal of the EPA proposal.

2 Carbon exprint process is also flexible. 

3 Down the road the EDU could use the capital and 

4 interest from these bonds as a down payment on 

5 their own greenhouse gas reduction project. They 

6 could donate these bonds as part of their 

7 charitable giving.

8 The utility could also use the carbon 

9 exprint process to sell utility revenue bonds, 

10 raising capital dedicated to creating renewable 

11 energy, energy efficiency, storage, smart grids 

12 and other greenhouse gas reduction projects

13 Since the utility and their customers 

14 share the responsibility of creating carbon 

15 pollution, they Could share the carbon allowance. 

16 The sale of bonds purchased by the customer would 

17 be used as allowances against the utility's 

18 carbon pollution limit set by the EPA. The 

19 customer could purchase these bonds manually or 

20 they could automatically be purchased on their 

21 bill each time their energy usage created one ton 

22 of greenhouse gas.

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1 Carbon exprint advantages over cap and 

2 trade and renewable energy credits. With the 

3 carbon exprint, the price of carbon is stable. It 

4 does not require a complex trading structure. 

5 The change behavior, the approach of cap and 

6 trade and RECs is either punishment for action 

7 taken in the present and/or a reward for action 

8 taken in the past. By paying penalties, these 

9 approaches make it more difficult for companies 

10 to achieve of those limits. 

11 With these approaches, money is paid to 

12 existing renewable energy and energy efficiency. 

13 Carbon exprint's flexibility and ROI make it 

14 easier for companies to stay competitive and 

15 achieve the imposed limits. Money is invested in 

16 creating new renewable energy and energy 

17 efficiency. 

18 With carbon exprints, the use of 

19 standardized loans, such as Investor Confidence 

20 Project, leads to the securitization and the sale 

21 of these loans. Recycling these money for 

22 additional new renewable energy and energy 

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1 efficiency.

2 The current approaches are a defensive 

3 posture designed to hold our ground. A 

4 successful approach will be one that is on the 

5 offensive, creating, building, progressing, and 

6 gaining new ground. Nothing motivates like 

7 progress. 

8 Carbon exprint addresses two of climate 

9 changes biggest needs, the need to take action 

10 for our carbon pollution and the need of 

11 trillions of dollars in investment to change our 

12 energy infrastructure.

13 It rewards action today and gets money 

14 toward what is needed to do the most good, by 

15 creating energy efficiency and renewable energy. 

16 It is a simple, flexible and profitable approach. 

17 We can have a strategy that rewards action and 

18 promotes growth. Thank you. 

19 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. Kier. Thank 

20 you, Mr. Endrus.

21 Our next speaker is Kevin Sheen, and 

22 Kevin will be delivering two testimonies, so I'm 

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1 going to ask that he come up to the podium along. 

2 Thank you, Mr. Sheen. And if you could spell 

3 your name for the court reporter that would be 

4 helpful.

5 MR. SHEEN: Kevin, K-e-v-i-n, Sheen, 

6 S-h-e-e-n. Thank you for the opportunity to 

7 speak today. I guess first I'm speaking on 

8 behalf of the Alliance of Clean Energy in New 

9 York. I'm the Chairman of the Board of Directors 

10 for the Alliance for Clean Energy in New York. 

11 ACE New York is an alliance of clean energy 

12 companies and public interest organizations. Our 

13 mission is to promote the use of clean energy 

14 technologies and energy efficiency in New York 

15 state in order to increase energy diversity and 

16 security, boost economic development, improve 

17 public health and reduce air pollution.

18 ACE was established with the believe that 

19 belief that clean energy is good for business. 

20 My company Everpower Wind Holdings is an owner, 

21 developer and operator of utility grade wind 

22 projects. ACE has other utility scale wind 

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1 members as well as distributed wind energy, fuel 

2 sale, hydropower, large and small solar 

3 companies. 

4 Our premise is the pursuit of clean 

5 energy for the public good can build markets and 

6 business growth, creating jobs and keeping energy 

7 dollars in state.

8 EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan also 

9 recognizes this opportunity. ACE welcomes 

10 proposal and uses great for business growth in 

11 New York, an important opportunity to modernize 

12 the electric power system and ensure it can meet 

13 our needs for safe, reliable and affordable 

14 energy in the 21st century.

15 We especially support incorporating the 

16 role played by zero emitting renewables when 

17 setting the state carbon reduction targets, the 

18 inclusion of interim targets to help ensure 

19 states meet their carbon reduction requirements, 

20 and allowing clean energy and energy efficiency

21 as a compliance option.

22 We also support the endorsement of 

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1 programs like state renewable electrical --

2 electricity standards as a compliance option and 

3 allowing multi state opportunities for reducing 

4 carbon emissions. 

5 New York State participates in the 

6 Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, RGGI, as it's 

7 known. As a RGGI state, New York has an 

8 excellent foundation for compliance. A recent 

9 analysis by Morgan Stanley Research Group 

10 predicts that the RGGI states will collectively 

11 be over their compliance with the carbon target 

12 EPA has proposed without any additional cost. 

13 This suggests that a more aggressive target for 

14 RGGI states may be warranted.

15 Within the RGGI construct, compliance 

16 will be more cost effective overall if a 

17 reduction in the RGGI cap is accomplished by a 

18 robust and sustained investment in utility scale 

19 renewable behind the meter renewables and energy 

20 efficiencies.

21 Generally speaking, we feel the EPA's 

22 assumptions related to renewable energy and 

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1 energy efficiencies underestimate the amount of 

2 timely and cost effective emissions reductions 

3 available.

4 In its final rule, we strongly encourage 

5 the EPA to strengthen its assumptions of 

6 renewable energy and energy efficiency to reflect 

7 resource availability and demonstrated market 

8 realities rather than the averages of current 

9 state mandates.

10 For example, in New York, a recent study 

11 prepared by NYSERDA found that large reservoirs 

12 of clean energy potential exists. Energy 

13 efficiency and renewable energy potential study 

14 of New York State estimated that bounded 

15 technical potential for renewable energy 

16 developed to be 70 percent of total electricity 

17 demand by 2030, and the economic potential to be 

18 30 percent of total demand.

19 That study stated that the projected 

20 economic potential level could be surpassed if 

21 innovative policies could be developed to 

22 accelerate market transformation and broaden the 

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1 base of cost effective renewable resources.

2 The greatest potential increase is in 

3 solar energy, which currently represents less 

4 than one percent of the New York State energy 

5 supply, but could rise to as much as 15 percent 

6 of the New York State supply if the state 

7 captured all the solar resources that are 

8 currently available.

9 The potential for in state wind energies 

10 are also significant. From the technical 

11 standpoint the study found 11 percent of the 

12 state's total energy supply could come from 

13 onshore and offshore wind by 2030. ACE New York 

14 is a strong advocate for offshore wind, which has 

15 an excellent potential in New York and the 

16 ability to site pollution free generation close 

17 to the growing needs of New York City and Long 

18 Island.

19 Considering this vast potential, ACE also 

20 seeks to have New York establish aggressive but 

21 achievable long term goals for energy efficiency, 

22 renewables, specifically. Fifty percent 

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1 renewable energy by 2025 and 20 percent projected 

2 demand met by efficiency by 2025.

3 Current conditions and past experience in 

4 New York sport the EPA's position that compliance 

5 with Clean Energy Plan will not be an undue 

6 burden on consumers or businesses. 

7 In New York the clean energy industry is 

8 already producing significant carbon emission 

9 reductions by lowering its cost to consumers and 

10 benefitting the economy.

11 For example, to date, the main tier of 

12 New York's landmark renewable portfolio standard 

13 programmed has the cumulative net impact of 

14 essentially zero due to the price suppression 

15 effects of new wind generation.

16 The RPS has estimated benefit cost to 

17 ratio of 91 under a high CO2 value. 

18 I see my little red light is on, so 

19 again, we recommend the EPA draft power plan to 

20 support this approach, reducing emissions from 

21 electricity sector, we believe carefully crafted 

22 final rule ideally where one goes further and 

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1 faster. Thank you for allowing me to share ACE's 

2 comments.

3 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

4 MR. SHEEN: I'll put the other hat on 

5 now. Now I would like to testify on behalf of 

6 QSPA (phonetic) Wind, and my name is still 

7 spelled K-e-v-i-n, S-h-e-e-n, just in case you 

8 were wondering.

9 QSPA Wind is an initiative of working on 

10 educating and promoting customers to power their 

11 home or businesses with one hundred percent 

12 locally sourced Pennsylvania wind energy. We 

13 support the EPA's Clean Power Plan proposed rule 

14 that would cut carbon emissions from power 

15 plants.

16 The increased Pennsylvania wind energy 

17 will be an important tool for reducing emissions 

18 in Pennsylvania. For example, one single two meg 

19 watt turbine would produce about 5,000 megawatt 

20 hours a year of electricity, reducing carbon 

21 dioxide emissions by over 3,000 ton, the 

22 equivalent of taking approximately 677 cars off 

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1 the road every year. That's just one turbine.

2 The Twin Ridges Wind farm, which is owned 

3 by EverPower, for example, offsets approximately 

4 235,000 tons of carbon dioxide each year, the 

5 equivalent of taking approximately 50,000 cars 

6 off the road.

7 The proposed EPA Clean Power Plan is an 

8 opportunity for Pennsylvania to utilize its wind 

9 power resources to reduce carbon emissions and 

10 promote cleaner air.

11 Pennsylvania has been a leader in wind 

12 power, already hosting 24 wind power projects, 

13 enough energy for approximately 326,000 average 

14 U.S. homes, plus more untapped potential.

15 Taking advantage of its wind resource to 

16 achieve the EPA's carbon emission reduction 

17 targets would been beneficial to Pennsylvania in 

18 regards to both health and the economy.

19 In terms of health, Pittsburgh 

20 specifically has an air quality issue affecting 

21 many citizen's health and quality of life. The 

22 Pittsburgh area is, in fact, ranked sixth in the 

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1 American Lung Association for most polluted 

2 cities.

3 Carbon dioxide pollution in the air is 

4 linked to causing and worsening asthma, COPD, 

5 cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Electric 

6 power accounted for 39 percent of the total U.S. 

7 energy related carbon dioxide emissions in 2012. 

8 It is imperative that carbon dioxide emissions be 

9 reduced in order to improve the air quality and 

10 in turn, the health of Pennsylvania residents.

11 Creating more wind energy in Pennsylvania 

12 will help clean up the local air because wind 

13 power does not create any water or air pollution 

14 of any kind and displaces energy production from 

15 coal and other fossil fuel generating plants.

16 Beyond promoting clean air, wind power 

17 also promotes economic growth. New wind farms 

18 will create local jobs from construction and also 

19 for site maintenance. Furthermore, the land used 

20 for wind farm can simultaneously be used for 

21 agriculture providing farmers with another income 

22 stream.

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1 Wind power also provides revenues to 

2 townships, counties, school districts in the form 

3 of property tax payments, impact payments, while 

4 supporting the rural economy through related 

5 economic activities. 

6 Pennsylvania already ranks 15th in the 

7 country for wind power capacity. There is plenty 

8 of an opportunity to build on that, create more 

9 jobs and a cleaner environment by introducing 

10 more wind power into Pennsylvania energy mix. If 

11 we have this potential, we need to utilize it for 

12 the benefit of our health, environment and local 

13 economy.

14 Pennsylvania has the chance to be the 

15 leader in wind power production and a leader in 

16 carbon emissions. Let's take action to approve 

17 our state and we support the EPA Clean Power 

18 Rule.

19 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. Sheen. Any 

20 questions from the panel? No? Thank you, again.

21 Our next two speakers are Dan Litchfield 

22 and Chelsea Holmes. And if you could spell your 

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1 name for the court reporter that would be 

2 helpful.

3 MR. LITCHFIELD: All right, good 

4 afternoon, I'm Dan Litchfield, 

5 L-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d. 

6 I'm a Senior Project Developer with 

7 Iberdrola Renewables, that's I-b-e-r-d-r-o-l-a. 

8 We are the second largest renewable electricity 

9 generator in the United States. We are the 

10 second largest renewable electricity generator in 

11 the United States. 

12 We have invested roughly 12 billion 

13 dollars in renewable energy projects in the 

14 United States. Our parent company, Iberdrola SA, 

15 is the largest renewable electricity provider in 

16 the world.

17 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

18 about why we think the Clean Power Plan can 

19 generate jobs and investment along with cleaner 

20 air and a more stable climate. 

21 Iberdrola Renewables can bring 

22 significant private investment to bear to help 

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1 cost effectively achieve the rule's objectives, 

2 reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

3 The great example is our 600 million 

4 dollar investment in the Blue Creek Wind Farm in 

5 northwest Ohio. First and foremost, it provides 

6 emissions free electricity sufficient for 76,000 

7 average Ohio homes per year at a cost that 

8 allowed one of our customers, the Ohio State 

9 University, to save money in year one of their 

10 contract and stabilize their energy cost for 

11 decades to come. 

12 Secondly, Blue Creek created significant 

13 economic activity in Ohio. During the 

14 construction phase, 25 million dollars was spent 

15 locally, including, with local company that 

16 supplied everything from concrete and gravel to 

17 hard hats and hotel rooms. 665,000 labor hours 

18 went into construction, and over half were 

19 performed by Ohioans.

20 In addition, our landowners now reap a 

21 new crop from their farm fields, electricity. It 

22 will earn over two million dollars per year in 

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1 royalties. Local schools have also experienced a 

2 windfall. Four local school districts in the 

3 area now receive 1.8 million dollars per year. 

4 Blue Creek is now the largest single 

5 taxpayer in Van Wert County, and number two, in 

6 Paulding County, right behind another wind farm. 

7 This is a win wind. 

8 It has been replicated in communities 

9 across the country, including here in 

10 Pennsylvania, where Iberdrola Renewables has 

11 installed four wind farms in hope to add two 

12 more. 

13 The four operating projects in Columbia, 

14 Somerset, Schuylskill and Fayette counties 

15 combine 209 megawatts of electricity. Our 23 

16 turbine Casselman Project sits on a reclaimed 

17 coal mine. It's a symbol that our country has 

18 abundant energy in many forms.

19 Personally, I feel fortunate to work in 

20 such a rewarding field as renewable energy. I 

21 chose to get into the field in 2007 because I 

22 felt wind energy was the best possible technology 

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1 to tackle renewal challenges of clean air, 

2 climate change and the need for cost effective 

3 and abundant electricity.

4 In the intervening seven years, our costs 

5 have come down significantly, and so has that of 

6 solar energy. We have demonstrated that 

7 renewable energy can help generate the 

8 electricity we need and do so cost effectively. 

9 We no longer need to pass off cost of 

10 fossil fuels to the environment and people 

11 downwind of smoke stacks.

12 The electricity markets fail to 

13 adequately price the cost associated with 

14 greenhouse gas emissions. EPA must step in and 

15 implement these rules to bring us closer to a 

16 fair market.

17 With a level playing field we can 

18 complete with anyone on the cost of electricity 

19 and we can generate enormous benefits for rural 

20 communities from Pennsylvania to the Pacific 

21 because the wind is everywhere. That's it.

22 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Ms. Holmes.

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1 MS. HOLMES: My name is Chelsea Holmes. 

2 I am worried about the environment. I will be 

3 reading for Elizabeth Kilough from Glenside, 

4 Pennsylvania.

5 "I fully support the EPA's proposed 

6 standard. It should be implemented promptly and 

7 without being weakened in any way. By setting 

8 reasonable carbon pollution standards for power 

9 plants, the EPA will cut the primary driver of 

10 climate change, improve air quality, reduce the 

11 risk for super storms and give the United States 

12 credibility in seeking carbon emission reductions 

13 from other countries."

14 "I come to this issue from a unique 

15 perspective. I maintain an exclusively vegan 

16 diet. This means I eat absolutely no animals or 

17 animal products. No eggs, butter, milk or 

18 anything produce by an animal."

19 "At first glance, my diet would appear to 

20 have nothing to do with the growing problem of 

21 carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. However the 

22 processing, transporting, and storing of animal 

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1 meat and products is extremely energy intensive. 

2 It takes 11 times the energy to produce a calorie 

3 if animal protein as it does to produce a calorie 

4 of plant protein"

5 "The University of Chicago researched 

6 diet's effect on carbon emissions and found that 

7 a vegan is responsible for the release of 

8 approximately 1.5 fewer tons of carbon dioxide 

9 into the atmosphere each year than a meat eater."

10 "Cutting meat and dairy to shrink the 

11 carbon footprint of my diet is great. However, 

12 while I have the power to reduce my carbon 

13 footprint by eating plants, I am powerless to 

14 reduce the carbon footprint from power plants I 

15 rely on. That is why the EPA needs to act."

16 "I live very happily without meat and 

17 dairy. I cannot live happily without 

18 electricity. My family has voluntarily purchased 

19 a hundred percent clean electricity for our 

20 household for many years, but we can't do it 

21 alone. It's time for the government to act. The 

22 democratically elected Congress give the 

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1 democratically President the authority to 

2 regulate emissions from power plants. The EPA 

3 must use this authority to implement the proposed 

4 emission standard as soon as possible without 

5 watering it down. Thank you. Elizabeth."

6 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Our next two 

7 speakers, Paul -- I'm sorry about this --

8 Pokrowka -- Pokrowka and Kyle Brightville. 

9 Sorry for butchering your name.

10 MR. POKROWKA: That's no problem. 

11 MS. ESHER: And Kyle Brightville? Go 

12 ahead and proceed.

13 MR. POKROWKA: I'll spell my last name 

14 for you, it's P-o-k-r-o-w-k-a.

15 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

16 MR. POKROWKA: All right. Hello, and 

17 thank you for the opportunity to come before you 

18 today. My name is Paul Pokrowka. I'm speaking 

19 on behalf of Smart Transportation Division the 

20 labor union that represents railroad workers 

21 across the country. 

22 I serve as the Pennsylvania State 

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1 Legislative Director and Chairman. I'm here 

2 today to convey our concerns with the EPA's 

3 proposed Clean Power Plan. We are concerned and 

4 we care about this issue because of the impact 

5 this plan will have on our jobs and our future. 

6 There are dozens of freight railroads in 

7 Pennsylvania which employ thousands of people. 

8 These are not temporary jobs, these are career 

9 jobs. These people, my coworkers, your 

10 neighbors' precious careers are in jeopardy 

11 because of the hit taken on the coal industry.

12 Nearly 40 percent of all freight railroad 

13 cars in America are coal cars. Coal has provided 

14 the revenues needed to build and rebuild 

15 America's railroads. Coal continues to provide 

16 the money necessary to expand and maintain our 

17 rural rail infrastructure.

18 America's railroads will spend 

19 approximately 25 billion dollars in 2014 to 

20 maintain and expand rail infrastructure as well 

21 as hire 14,000 new employees. Twenty-five 

22 percent of the freight rail industry's revenue 

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1 come from shipping of coal. Twenty percent of 

2 all freight rail jobs involve hauling coal. 

3 These are huge numbers and will have huge 

4 impacts on people's lives in the American 

5 economy. Preliminary estimates of the impact on 

6 jobs brought about with the EPA's proposed Clean 

7 Power Plan indicate the potential loss of 52,000 

8 permanent direct jobs by the year 2020 in the 

9 utility, rail and coal sectors due to power plant 

10 retirements.

11 When you include the indirect job losses, 

12 the total increases to approximately 167,000 jobs 

13 lost. As I stated previously, these are not 

14 temporary jobs, these are not stepping stones, 

15 these are life changing careers. High skilled, 

16 high paying positions, and they are typically in 

17 rural communities without other opportunities for 

18 comparable employment.

19 We, those who work in the effective 

20 sectors of the proposed Clean Power Plan would 

21 like to provide you with some recommendations and 

22 topics for consideration. We believe these would 

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1 enhance the power plan in a positive manner if 

2 agreed upon.

3 Number one, the power plan should provide 

4 states with credit for prior CO2 reductions as an 

5 option towards meeting a reasonable national

6 target for reducing CO2 emissions from the 

7 electric power sector.

8 Number two, EPA's compliance time table 

9 is unrealistic and unachievable. Even with the 

10 multiyear compliance average toward the interim 

11 and final targets. The initial reduction program 

12 should be delayed by several years to allow 

13 states and affected sources adequate time to 

14 prepare and submit state plans, and to structure 

15 and implement compliance strategies in the most 

16 flexible least cost manner.

17 Number three, EPA's proposal for major 

18 expanses of state energy efficiency and renewable 

19 energy programs interfere with the traditional 

20 state authority and energy planning, and appear 

21 to be well beyond the agency's authority under 

22 the Clean Air Act.

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1 The supreme court's recent decision on 

2 the greenhouse gas permitting rule contains a 

3 strong cautionary language that the court will 

4 take a skeptical view of in overly expansive 

5 interpretation of EPA's authority to regulate 

6 greenhouse gases.

7 Number four, we believe that the Agency 

8 should reconsider the proposed rule's building 

9 block approach to set state CO2 emissions 

10 reduction goals based on end use energy 

11 efficiency, increased use of natural gas and 

12 renewable energy, as well as other beyond the 

13 fence emission reduction strategies.

14 Rather, we urge the EPA to focus the rule 

15 only on options for reducing emissions within the 

16 plant fence line. The proposed six percent 

17 efficiency improvement for existing coal units is 

18 a step in the right direction, but we are 

19 doubtful that all these investments would ever be 

20 made, given the rule's negative impact on coal 

21 generation and new source review permitting.

22 Finally, we believe that the rule is 

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1 premature, since we do not know the extent to 

2 which other nations, particularly large 

3 developing countries, will be willing to commit 

4 to a truly global program of greenhouse gas 

5 reductions.

6 We, America, cannot go at it alone and 

7 expect that our actions will have any meaningful 

8 climate impact in a world economy that is using 

9 more coal and other fossil fuels every day.

10 Developing nations already emit more CO2 

11 than advanced industrial nations and Department 

12 of Energy projects that their share of global 

13 emissions will grow steadily and continue to do 

14 so regardless of what the United States decides 

15 to do. Thank you. 

16 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. Pokrowka. 

17 MR. POKROWKA: Any questions?

18 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Kyle Brightville, 

19 John Kissel. Our next two speakers are Kyle 

20 Brightville and John Kissel.

21 MR. KISSEL: I'm John Kissel. 

22 MS. ESHER: Thank you. And if Kyle 

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1 doesn't come up, let's bring Shanelle Smith. 

2 Thank you, Ms. Smith.

3 Take your time and when you're 

4 comfortable, Mr. Kissel, if you could begin. 

5 MR. KISSEL: My name is John Kissel, 

6 K-i-s-s-e-l. I'm a retired physician from St. 

7 Louis, Missouri. I bring you greets from the 

8 Show-Me state. I am a graduate of Harvard 

9 Medical School, board certified in internal 

10 medicine, a fellow of the American College of 

11 Physicians, and I really appreciate the 

12 opportunity to speak to you. 

13 To me, this is what American democracy is

14 all about. The reason I'm here is that I have 

15 children and grandchildren and friends and 

16 relatives that live in the St. Louis area, and we 

17 need your help. 

18 Our utility and electricity provider is 

19 Ameren Missouri, one of the largest electric 

20 utilities in the country, and number five on the 

21 dirty dozen list for utility polluters. They 

22 generate almost 80 percent of our electricity by 

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1 burning coal in four large coal plants in the St. 

2 Louis area, only one of which has any modern 

3 pollution control devices, any significant 

4 extent.

5 As you might imagine, we therefore, have 

6 some -- there are statistics, I'm sure you've 

7 heard many times about asthma and cardiovascular 

8 disease and other related public health problems 

9 generated from burning coal.

10 Now, I was shocked, myself, some years 

11 ago to learn that St. Louis was declared the 

12 number one city that year for childhood asthma 

13 deaths. Now, you might think that Missouri is a 

14 state where there are a lot of ultra 

15 conservatives who just are climate change 

16 deniers, but that's not really the case. And I 

17 have a couple of lines of evidence to that.

18 One is that I brought with me almost 

19 1,100 letters from citizens all around the state 

20 of Missouri, mostly Sierra Club members, 

21 supporting the carbon rule and asking for a 

22 strong carbon rule.

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1 The other is that about five years ago 

2 over 60 percent of Missouri voters voted for a 

3 proposition that called for modest but 

4 significant investments by our utilities in 

5 renewable energy sources for generating 

6 electricity.

7 The problem is, since that time, the 

8 Missouri legislature has ignored and basically 

9 gutted the intent of that rule. 

10 So we have a problem because we have no 

11 leadership for our utility and we have no 

12 leadership from our state government. And so we 

13 need the EPA to be strong for us. 

14 Excuse me. I don't begin to understand 

15 the formula used for determining state goals, but 

16 the national goal is for a 30 percent reduction 

17 in carbon dioxide emissions, and the goal for 

18 Missouri is 21 percent. 

19 Now, it seems counterintuitive that a 

20 state and utility that have been historical 

21 laggards would be given a more or less free pass 

22 on the standards. We need stronger standards for 

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1 Missouri, at least. They're achievable and 

2 they're doable, and the fact of the matter is, 

3 you'll get the same amount of bluster and whining 

4 regardless of whether you propose a strong 

5 standard or a weak one.

6 The simple fact of the matter is that 

7 it's going to be much better to make some hard 

8 choices now than to leave our grandchildren's 

9 children with an impossible situation. Thanks 

10 very much.

11 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Ms. Smith? Mr. 

12 Kissel, if you could stay seated while Ms. 

13 Smith -- thank you. Thank you. 

14 MS. SMITH: My name is Shanelle Smith, 

15 S-h-a-n-e-l-l-e, and I'm the Director of Emerald 

16 Cities Cleveland. In Cleveland and other 

17 metropolitan regions, Emerald Cities 

18 Collaborative is transforming the energy 

19 efficiency sector in a high roadway by 

20 retrofitting building stock, trading high wage 

21 jobs and revitalizing local economies.

22 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

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1 today in support of EPA's Clean Power Plan. The 

2 recently proposed 111(d) regulations to cut 

3 carbon emissions from existing power plants is a 

4 catalyst many communities need to address carbon 

5 pollution and high unemployment. 

6 While fighting to keep Ohio's renewable 

7 portfolio standards, a state senator expressed 

8 our support of the freeze by saying we all 

9 breathe the same air. We do not.

10 The truth is that 68 percent of African

11 Americans live within 30 miles of coal fire 

12 plants. Growing up near a petro chemical plant 

13 is most likely the very reason why I woke up with 

14 a lump in my neck at the age of 26. And before I 

15 turned 30, this May, I had two fights of cancer 

16 and a bone marrow transplant, all likely linked 

17 to the prolonged exposure to air pollution.

18 By reducing carbon emissions from the 

19 existing power plants we can entrust a 

20 disproportionate impact of carbon pollution that 

21 negatively affects the health and educational 

22 outcomes, as well as the economic well-being of 

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1 communities of color.

2 Although our communities are highly 

3 affected, far often disadvantaged communities are 

4 left out of climate mitigation and forced to wait 

5 on a solution. Ohio's Governor John Kasich and 

6 the Republican led General Assembly is studying 

7 our state's renewable portfolio standard. This 

8 study forces communities and others to wait, 

9 continue to breathe air pollutants and to be left 

10 out of the merging clean energy economy that is 

11 booming in other states.

12 While we wait on our state to lead, 

13 Cleveland's aging housing stock and unfortunate 

14 distinction of ranking in the top tier of the 

15 poorest cities for poverty are sitting ducks for 

16 more intense super storms and another polar 

17 vortex.

18 The Clean Power Plan allows us to prepare 

19 for climate change pressure, lessen our energy 

20 demand and foster social cohesion. The 111(d) 

21 rules supports Emerald Cities' goal to increase 

22 equity by increasing energy efficiency and 

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1 expanding job opportunities on the clean energy 

2 sector.

3 These rules set the stage for energy 

4 diversity. If we don't choose the right mix or 

5 generation using diverse fuels, energy 

6 efficiency, and demand side management to meet 

7 the carbon reduction goals, we would do a 

8 tremendous disservice to my generation and 

9 generations to come.

10 Energy diversity is directly connected to 

11 job creation, consumer protection and economic 

12 growth. As a rule for ever million dollars 

13 invested in energy efficiency, 21 direct and 

14 indirect jobs are created, needing retrofit jobs, 

15 including electricians, heating and air 

16 conditioning installers, carpenters and many 

17 more. These are jobs that pay family sustaining 

18 wages, can't be outsourced and offer career 

19 pathways through union apprenticeship programs.

20 The 111(d) regulations gives us the 

21 nation's first opportunity to explore the full 

22 range of the triple bottom line in energy, equity 

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1 and the environment. EPA, thank you for allowing 

2 me to sensify, but most importantly, thank you 

3 for your leadership and willingness to act on 

4 climate. Thank you. 

5 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Our next speakers 

6 are Christopher Seymour and Phil Van Dam.

7 MR. SEYMOUR: Hello. Thank you for 

8 having me. My name is Christopher Seymour. I'm 

9 from the area. I'm here today as a concerned 

10 parent and homeowner to show my support for 

11 purposeful action on climate change and dangerous 

12 carbon pollution fueling it. 

13 Climate change is a reality, scientific 

14 evidence showing human activity is the primary 

15 cause and rapid change in the climate is 

16 overwhelming. Both scientists and economists are 

17 documenting the effects in forecasting future 

18 impacts that will result due to an increase in 

19 carbon pollution.

20 We have a responsibility as parents to 

21 protect the health and safety of our children, 

22 and as property owners to preserve our land and 

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1 homes for future prosperity.

2 That's why we are obligated to protect 

3 our children and land from the dangerous carbon 

4 pollution emitting from the nation's power 

5 plants.

6 The largest contributor of carbon 

7 pollution in our country, fueling climate change, 

8 comes from power plants. Unlike other regulated 

9 but dangerous chemicals such as mercury and 

10 arsenic, power plants are currently allowed to 

11 dump unlimited amounts of carbon pollution into 

12 the air. In addition to climate change, carbon 

13 pollution causes health issues for many 

14 Americans, including asthma attacks in children. 

15 We have a right as American citizens not 

16 only to choose to live a healthy lifestyle that 

17 but also be protected from extreme weather events 

18 caused by carbon pollution. I saw this 

19 firsthand, the destruction of Carnegie, 

20 Pennsylvania, where I was living in 2004. This 

21 is the year that both Hurricane Frances and 

22 Hurricane Ivan moved through the area ten days 

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1 apart.

2 This historic flooding destroyed the 

3 downtown business district and many homes were 

4 severely damaged. The town has never fully 

5 recovered, and additional flooding events 

6 occurred there in 2010, 2013 and 2014, because 

7 the infrastructure is incapable of addressing 

8 storm water during heavy rain events.

9 Although this is a local example, many 

10 other extreme weather events have become a burden 

11 to others living across the country, including 

12 Hurricane Katrina, Super Storm Sandy and a 

13 current California drought. 

14 On a personal note, my wife's parent's 

15 condo in nearby Laural Mountains, where we spend 

16 our time skiing in the winters. My child will 

17 learn to ski there on the local hill, and the ski 

18 resort operation struggles to turn a profit every 

19 winter due to the warming climate. 

20 Unfortunately, climate change is aggressively 

21 threatening the local ski industry and our 

22 recreational heritage.

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1 My parents own a beach condo on the east 

2 coast of Florida. We go there to vacation and 

3 it's where my little boy will learn to swim and 

4 fish. However, the property is threatened by 

5 global sea level rise caused by a warming 

6 climate. To complicate matters, ocean 

7 acidification due to carbon pollution is wiping 

8 out coral reefs and decimating local fisheries.

9 These are just some of my personal 

10 experiences with climate change and I feel my 

11 child will have war stories to tell in the 

12 future. So we have an opportunity to cut power 

13 plant carbon pollution by 30 percent of 2005 

14 levels by the year 2030. This is an important 

15 first step we must take to protect our families 

16 and our heritage. This is an important first 

17 step we must take -- excuse me -- cutting carbon 

18 pollution emitted by power plants will provide 

19 additional benefits to the economy. 

20 First, we will promote investments and 

21 energy efficiency in a renewable energy 

22 technologies. Over the past decade, we've seen 

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1 new advances in automobile technology, thanks to 

2 government regulations on carbon based fuel 

3 economy. Higher cost for gasoline also promoted 

4 investment in more efficient automobile 

5 technology and there's a strong likelihood that 

6 carbon pollution controls will result in both the 

7 advancement of renewable energy technologies and 

8 also the change in consumer behavior to seek 

9 energy efficient products.

10 A second benefit to the economy is 

11 mitigating taxpayer risk for the cost of extreme 

12 weather impacts. The damage from extreme weather 

13 is estimated to have exceeded 200 billion dollars 

14 in the last three years alone. The level of 

15 burden is unsustainable now and we will only 

16 increase the burden on our children's future 

17 unless we act now to reduce carbon pollution in a 

18 meaningful way.

19 I strongly support the Environmental 

20 Protection Agency, which is using its authority 

21 under the clean air act, reaffirmed by the 

22 supreme court, to protect my family's safety, 

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1 health and prosperity from the dangerous carbon 

2 pollution from our nation's power plants.

3 The consequences of inaction will only 

4 grow worse over time. As a world leader, the 

5 United States of America must show that we will 

6 stand up for what is right for our citizens and 

7 take meaningful action on reducing carbon 

8 pollution. Thank you. 

9 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. Seymour. Mr. 

10 Van Damme?

11 MR. VAN DAMME: I'm Pastor Philip Van 

12 Damme from Martin's Ferry, Ohio, about an hour 

13 and a quarter from here. The people there 

14 lovingly refer to it as MF.

15 My father was a Baptist pastor in the 

16 same area back in the last '60s, and at that time 

17 the people believed that dirty air meant jobs. 

18 Now, I'm living back in that area and I am 

19 burying people because of asthma and lung cancer.

20 How we treat creation shows how we feel 

21 about the creator, and how we treat each other is 

22 our responsibility. In the Lutheran prospective, 

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1 if we fail to act to save the lives of others, we 

2 are guilty of murder. 

3 I was born in Nina, Wisconsin. It's 

4 about an hour from Green Bay. And when I was 

5 born there, there's a type of tree that lives 

6 around here called Pawpaw. I don't know if 

7 you're familiar with those. They would not grow 

8 in Nina because it was too cold at that time. 

9 Now, you can grow Pawpaw trees in Nina.

10 When I lived in Martin's Ferry in the 

11 '60s, I was told that one had to wait until the 

12 first frost to pick Pawpaws. Now, by the first 

13 frost, they have rotten. They've fallen and 

14 rotten a month earlier.

15 People talk about jobs being lost because 

16 of more regulations. However, there's --

17 whenever there's been a shift in the economy, 

18 there's been dislocation. Once slavery ended, 

19 there was dislocation. When people shift from 

20 growing drugs like opium or tobacco, there is 

21 economic dislocation. 

22 There is still a lot of coal being mined 

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1 in this area. However, there are actually very 

2 few people doing the mining. I believe it's 

3 something like one-twentieth the number of people 

4 who are actually involved in it compared to the 

5 '60s, bringing out the same amount of coal. So 

6 the number of jobs being lost is much smaller 

7 than it would have been.

8 And I believe also there are some areas 

9 that can be focused on of reducing emissions that 

10 do not benefit the economy. In our area there is 

11 a lot of fracking going on, and some of it is for 

12 oil and they torch the natural gas. So it's just 

13 being burned off without it benefitting anybody.

14 I know there are some underground coal 

15 fires in this state. There are many in China. 

16 And once again, underground coal fires are 

17 something that benefit nobody, that attacking 

18 that would help further reduce CO2 emissions.

19 Well, I am personally much more for a 

20 carbon tax that would simply allow the market to 

21 solve the problem. I believe this is a good 

22 step, a small step, but a good step. 

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1 Many people talk about the consequence of 

2 ocean level rise. They talk about the 

3 consequences on Florida and Louisiana, and low 

4 lying cities like D.C. or San Francisco. They 

5 talk about millions of people being displaced. I 

6 am personally more concerned about when Kansas 

7 cannot grow wheat and millions of people go 

8 hungry. Thank you. 

9 MS. ESHER: Thank you both for coming 

10 today. Thank you very much. 

11 Our next speakers are Karen Melton and 

12 Doris Marlin. Karen Melton and Doris Marlin? 

13 Or how about Russell Golman. Thank you, 

14 Mr. Golman. And when you're comfortable and 

15 ready to speak, if you could spell your name, 

16 that would be helpful for our court reporter.

17 MS. MELTON: My name Karen, with a K, 

18 Melton, M-e-l-t-o-n, and I am reading testimony 

19 today for Dr. Dan Wolk, W-o-l-k.

20 "My testimony which I am submitting today 

21 is in enthusiastic support for the EPA's Clean 

22 Power Plan. I am a family physician practicing 

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1 in Delaware County, Pennsylvania." 

2 "I've been concerned about climate change 

3 ever since Barry Commoner made the greenhouse 

4 effect a talking point in his 1979 presidential 

5 campaign. At the time I was in medical school at 

6 Tufts in Boston."

7 "Since that time the decades have marked 

8 successful initiatives to curtail pollution from 

9 power plants, from acid rain to mercury, which 

10 we're having a massive impact on public health 

11 and the health of our forests."

12 "Meanwhile, the coal industry has 

13 continued to treat the air we breathe as an open 

14 sewer for the disposal of fine particulates, 

15 which cause asthma, COPD, pulmonary fibrosis and 

16 cancer, and CO2, contributing one-third of our 

17 nation's annual carbon emissions. The latter 

18 threatens the livability of our planet and the 

19 survival of generations yet unborn."

20 "According to the American Lung 

21 Associations 2011 report, Toxic Air, over 386,000 

22 tons of 84 separate hazardous air pollutants spew

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1 from over 400 coal burning plants in 46 states. 

2 This is more than the emissions of the next three 

3 top polluting industries combined."

4 "I am very concerned about these 

5 emissions from coal fired power plants which 

6 cause tens of thousands of deaths and many more 

7 disabilities every year nationwide. While I 

8 cannot tell whether my patient with asthma or 

9 COPD is sick because of pollution from coal, the 

10 epidemiology tells me that it is a major 

11 contributing factor, if not the primary 

12 ideology."

13 "By the time they see me sometimes 

14 struggling for every breath, there is no way to 

15 undo the damage. Meanwhile the billions of 

16 dollars in health care costs are borne by the 

17 victims, their families and our society." 

18 "Furthermore, coal fired power plants 

19 leave behind mountains of toxic ash which 

20 threaten the safety of our drinking water and 

21 poison the air of neighboring communities."

22 "With all due respect to the workers who 

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1 dedicate their lives to mining coal, the 

2 industry's arguments for protecting their 

3 industry are to me, reminiscent of the tobacco 

4 industry's arguments against legislation to 

5 restrict tobacco sales and smoking."

6 "The evidence from my colleagues in 

7 public health is clear. Coal is a public health 

8 threat and we should shift our energy production 

9 to cleaner, safer alternatives as soon as 

10 possible. Energy experts tell us this is 

11 technically feasible in less than a decade."

12 "I applaud EPA's proposal to leave 

13 implementation of the Clean Power Plan to 

14 individual states which could apply a carbon tax 

15 as part of the solution. And I recommend that 

16 you add a carbon tax to the list of possible 

17 implementation options in the rule." 

18 "Economists tell us that a revenue 

19 neutral fee or a tax on carbon would reduce 

20 carbon emissions and with the, toxic emissions by 

21 burning coal without additional complex 

22 regulation."

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1 "A recent study by REMI, which stands for 

2 Regional Economic Models, Inc. reports that such 

3 a measure implemented nationally would prevent a 

4 quarter of a million deaths from respiratory 

5 disease in the first 20 years. British Columbia, 

6 Canada has set such an example resulting in lower 

7 fossil fuel consumption, improved air quality and 

8 a boost to their economy."

9 "A great strength of a carbon tax, is 

10 that it is not limited to power plant emissions. 

11 In medicine, if a patient is at risk for death or 

12 disability from a disease, the precautionary 

13 principle tells us to implement preventive 

14 measures for the sake of our public health, the 

15 Clean Power Plan is such a measure."

16 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Ms. Melton. Mr. 

17 Golman?

18 MR. GOLMAN: Thank you for allowing me 

19 the time to speak out in favor of the Clean Power 

20 Plan. My name is Russell Golman, G-o-l-m-a-n. I 

21 live here in Pittsburgh in the neighborhood of 

22 Greenfield. I'm a professor of social and 

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1 decision sciences at Carnegie Mellon University. 

2 Pittsburgh is a wonderful community. It 

3 often shows up on lists of the most livable

4 cities in America. I look forward to starting a 

5 family in this city and living here a long time.

6 Unfortunately, air pollution makes 

7 Pittsburgh a less healthy home than it has the 

8 potential to be. My neighbors, friends and 

9 family are all at greater risk for respiratory 

10 problems, even for cancer, because of air 

11 pollution that comes predominantly from coal 

12 fired power plants.

13 Renewable energy and higher energy 

14 efficiency standards offer us an opportunity to 

15 live in a cleaner city and have a higher quality 

16 of life. I can't walk down Penn Avenue in the 

17 strip district and buy cleaner air. Even or 

18 wonderful mayor, Mayor Peduto, can't solve this 

19 problem on his own because coal plants aren't 

20 located right here in the city of Pittsburgh, 

21 although their pollution is.

22 We need the states, coordinated by the 

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1 EPA at the federal level to act. The EPA's Clean 

2 Power Plan is a shining example of government by 

3 the people, for the people at its best.

4 There are entrenched special interests 

5 that profit from this status quo. Selling 

6 electricity produced by dirty coal without paying 

7 for the negative externality they impose on 

8 everyone else.

9 But our government will not be bought off 

10 by these special interests. It serves us all. 

11 All Americans will be able to breathe a little 

12 easier because of the Clean Power Plan. We may 

13 slow the pace of climate change and leave a more 

14 hospitable planet to our children because of the 

15 Clean Power Plan. And by investing in renewable 

16 energy and energy efficiency technologies, we may 

17 stipulate further innovation in these fields and 

18 grow a clean energy economy because of the Clean 

19 Power Plan.

20 I am proud of my government today. I am 

21 proud to speak out in full support of EPA's Clean 

22 Power Plan. Thank you. 

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1 MS. ESHER: Thank you both for speaking 

2 today. Thanks very much.

3 Our next two speakers, Ron Solentana and 

4 Stan Kabala. So Mr. Solentana, did I get that 

5 right?

6 MR. SOLENTANA: Solentana, yeah.

7 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

8 MR. SOLENTANA: Good afternoon. My name 

9 is Ron Solentana and I'm here on behalf of the 

10 Pennsylvania Solar Energy Industry's Association, 

11 PASEIA, and Mid-Atlantic Solar Energy's 

12 Association, MSEA. PASEIA is a division of MSEA, 

13 which it includes Pennsylvania, New Jersey and 

14 Delaware. I'm also here representing National 

15 Solar Energy Industry's Association, SEIA, the 

16 solar industry's leading trade association 

17 representing over 1,100 solar companies 

18 throughout the industry from developers and 

19 manufacturers to installers.

20 I would like to thank the members 

21 assembled here, the Environmental Protection 

22 Agency, for providing this forum to elicit 

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1 feedback on proposed 111(d) rule and applaud the 

2 EPA for their hard work and diligence in crafting 

3 this immensely important regulation.

4 SEIA, MSEA and PASEIA supports 111(d) and 

5 its support of an approach that allows states to 

6 take advantage of solar as part of a diverse 

7 compliance portfolio. Additionally, we are very 

8 pleased to have a solar and other outside of the 

9 fence measures included in the definition of the 

10 best system of emissions reduction, BSER, as we 

11 believe solar has a large role to play as a 

12 competitive priced CO2 offset in helping states 

13 reach compliance. 

14 In 2014, alone, solar is expected to 

15 reach to generate over 20,000 gigawatt hours, 

16 enough to offset 13.8 million metric tons of CO2 

17 in 2014.

18 Because of this and other avoided 

19 pollutants, solar avoids many of the health 

20 issues caused by fossil fuels emissions,

21 including bronchitis, asthma, heart disease, 

22 water pollution, land degradation and climate 

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1 change. Solar in Pennsylvania already offsets 

2 over 175 metric tons of CO2 a year.

3 The potential solar energy to offset even 

4 more CO2 is immense under 111(d), provided that 

5 the policies are in the right place and in 

6 addition to being in -- and that's a CO2 offset 

7 for Pennsylvania and other states. Solar energy 

8 has experienced plumbing costs that only get 

9 lower, making solar energy an attractive 

10 compliance method.

11 Nationally, the average price of 

12 residential PV installation cost has declined 

13 nine percent in just the past year. Over the 

14 past eight years has declined 67 percent. 

15 Solar falling cost and capacity for huge 

16 CO2 reduction and falling costs make an 

17 attractive component of a diverse plan, but the 

18 benefits don't stop here. SEIA, MSEA and PASEIA 

19 find that the solar has the potential for 

20 numerous other benefits outside of 111(d) 

21 compliance. 

22 For instance, solar helps reduce water 

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1 consumption in comparison to additional fossil 

2 fuel sources. Solar reduces emissions of acid 

3 gasses and air toxins and help attain, for 

4 example, ambient air quality standards for the 

5 ozone, helping states meet their clean air act 

6 requirements. 

7 Due to the wide variety of solar 

8 technology, solar is a perfect fit for every 

9 state and can be installed rapidly, a key piece 

10 to meeting the compliance deadlines.

11 Right here in Pennsylvania, the solar 

12 industry has consisted of several thousands of 

13 employees of several hundreds of companies in 

14 recent years. These companies have been very 

15 level -- have been at every level of the solar 

16 supply chain representing manufacturers, 

17 contractors, project developers and engineers. 

18 And even though the solar installation slowed 

19 down in Pennsylvania over the last few years, 

20 there are many more highly trained workers than 

21 are currently working in the solar industry in 

22 Pennsylvania, and they could easily gear up under 

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1 the EPA BSER plan. 

2 According to the solar foundation --

3 solar job census, 2013, the solar working force 

4 has an increase by 20 percent since 2012. This 

5 growing trend of solar jobs, coupled with EPA's 

6 111(d) rule proposed ruling will clearly 

7 invigorate the strong economic impact in 

8 Pennsylvania due to the solar capacity of CO2 

9 reduction in falling prices, job creation and 

10 more is why we believe that solar energy is 

11 critical to a strong and diverse 111(d) 

12 compliance plan.

13 With that being said, there is more that 

14 the EPA can do, even though SEIA, MSEA and PASEIA 

15 supports the 111(d) proposal, we believe that 

16 there are certain areas that can be strengthened 

17 in respect to solar, specifically, building block 

18 three. And building block three on renewable 

19 energy the, BSER, is based on incomplete data and 

20 does not reflect current solar capacity on market 

21 projections. Solar capacity in market 

22 projections are much higher than stated in the 

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1 proposed rule. Nevertheless, Pennsylvania can 

2 meet the 49 percent emissions reduction with 

3 renewable energy resources, including solar, 

4 wind, biomass and hydroelectric, while 

5 incorporating energy storage, energy pricing for 

6 solar in the way of tariffs and enhancing the 

7 state's current alternative energy portfolio 

8 standard, particularly the solar share 

9 requirement.

10 All of these resources can meet the 

11 challenge through the competitive market, forces 

12 that will produce results at no or little cost to 

13 consumers while cleaning up our air and providing 

14 good jobs with the real growth of solar. MSEA, 

15 PASEIA and SEIA would be very happy to help with 

16 that process to go through. Thank you. 

17 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Mr. Kabala.

18 MR. KABALA: My name is Stan Kabala and 

19 I'm Associate Director of the Center for 

20 Environmental Research and Education at the Bayer 

21 School of Natural and Environmental Sciences at 

22 Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh.

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1 MS. ESHER: Could you spell your name, 

2 please, for the court reporter?

3 MR. KABALA: Yes, it's K-a-b-a-l-a.

4 MS. ESHER: Thank you. 

5 MR. KABALA At Duquesne at the center, I 

6 teach environmental policy and management. In 

7 general, however, my remarks here are being made 

8 in a personal capacity as much as a professional 

9 one. Aside from that professional capacity, I 

10 realize very clearly in the last few days, I'm 

11 here because of my grandchildren, of whom there 

12 are now four, age two to six, and I think there 

13 are more on the way, and we can cross our fingers 

14 as grandparents at that prospect. 

15 And quite frankly, giving my professional 

16 interest, I would be negligent in my role as a 

17 grandparent if I weren't here today, and I 

18 sincerely state that. 

19 I'm going to speak about many things 

20 quite briefly, but I would like to say for the 

21 record that any of the statements I make here in 

22 brief can, indeed, be fact checked for accuracy 

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1 and validity, although I skimmed past the 

2 sourcing in some of the details. But I do speak 

3 here today in support of the Clean Power Plan for 

4 existing power plants and the carbon pollution 

5 standard.

6 I will say that these and other measures 

7 are inadequate as they stand. For example, the 

8 administrations have recently announced proposal 

9 to reduce carbon emissions by 30 percent by the 

10 year 2030 is altogether a very good first step. 

11 But we must recognize that worldwide scientific 

12 consensus tells us what must be done overall 

13 globally. The panel on climate change states and 

14 has stated for some time that carbon emissions 

15 have to be reduced by 80 percent by 2050. 80 by 

16 2050, not 30 by 2030.

17 By way of context, the State of 

18 California has had that goal, that same goal 

19 imbedded in its policies for some eight years now 

20 and quite early in taking up the challenge back 

21 in 2006, 7 and so on.

22 There's another way to put the limit that 

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1 we can live with in terms of global carbon 

2 emissions. Scientific estimates indicate that 

3 there are something like 2,800 -- I'm rounding --

4 gigatons of carbon fuel, coal, petroleum and

5 natural gas that are identified and economically 

6 extractable. That means we know where they are 

7 and they can be taken out of the ground and sold 

8 for a profit.

9 Unfortunately, to keep ourselves below 

10 the two degree Celsius warming that is a safe 

11 line, we can only burn 565 gigatons. In other 

12 words, 20 percent of what we can get out of the 

13 ground and sell, we can use. 80 percent has to 

14 stay in the ground. That's -- it's not so much a 

15 geologic or economic reality, it's a climate and 

16 warming reality.

17 But let me be clear. I'm sure you've 

18 heard many times, we really do have the 

19 technology at our disposal to meet the challenge 

20 of creating a safe, low carbon economy. And this 

21 continues down the path of affordability, 

22 increasing affordability.

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1 It starts with end use sufficiency across 

2 the board for all purposes. It's followed by 

3 renewables, wind, solar, concentrating thermal, 

4 distributed generation of high efficiency 

5 restored biological sequestration of carbon to 

6 pull some of the carbon back in from the 

7 atmosphere, and then in another sector 

8 altogether, high efficiency vehicles and better 

9 mass transportation systems, all of which pull 

10 down per capita energy use.

11 Now, a transition like that is no short 

12 order -- no small order. There will be costs. 

13 They will not be extreme, but they have to be 

14 borne fairly and I would like to address the 

15 question of ethics in all of this, and equity in 

16 all of this. These points need to be addressed 

17 and I think of them in three ways.

18 There's the intergenerational issue, 

19 which I alluded to. We can't shut off to our 

20 grandchildren and their children the pain, the 

21 damage, and there will be both, and the cost of 

22 our 50 year -- so far 50 year high energy, high 

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1 ride. 

2 I can't find an ethical or religious 

3 tradition in the world that suggest that harming 

4 posterity is anything but a sin. But if we --

5 and the cost here, indeed, qualify in that 

6 ethical category. We're having the good time, 

7 they'll pay for it. That is far from ethical.

8 Employment is a separate category of the 

9 equity issue. We cannot design a low carbon fuel 

10 economy and ignore the folks not working in the 

11 fossil fuel industries. The folks there 

12 producing the coal, oil and natural gas and those 

13 working in the industries that use those fuels 

14 must be retooled to work in renewables and 

15 efficiency. Their hardworking skills will be the 

16 heart of a new economy.

17 In equity, today, very quickly, is to 

18 adjust the cost of bearing the price of higher 

19 fuels by introducing a cap and trade, cap and 

20 dividend scheme. It spreads money around the 

21 economy very much like Alaska's oil dividend for 

22 Alaskans on an annual basis.

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1 Finally, I would simply say that the U.S. 

2 is key to this in the world. When the U.S. 

3 doesn't lead there isn't any leadership in the 

4 world. When the U.S. leads, nations follow. And 

5 this was true when we built the Montreal protocol 

6 to protect the ozone layer and it's true now, 

7 based on our capacity and our high emitting 

8 carbon footprint. Thank you very much. 

9 MS. ESHER: Thank you both. And we'll 

10 have one more speaker before we take a break. 

11 Doris Marlin.

12 MS. MARLIN: Hello, good afternoon, and 

13 he just stole any thunder I was hoping to 

14 generate. 

15 My name is Doris Marlin. I'm actually 

16 passing through from Maryland and serendipitous 

17 that this is happening, because I am so honored 

18 to support the Clean Power Plan and this 

19 regulation as a very needed step forward for 

20 climate change solutions.

21 I am a Unitarian Universalist with All 

22 Souls Church in Washington D.C. I've been a 

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1 Unitarian for 30 years. And so I am here as a 

2 member of the faith based community. 

3 Unitarians are traditionally quite active 

4 engaging in social justice issues and reason 

5 based decision making.

6 However, on a separate note, in 1991 and 

7 92, I was a graduate student in water resources 

8 management, and that is when I first heard of 

9 climate change and the increasing evidence in 

10 support of climate change. My son was three, and 

11 I had, oh, I don't know, eighteen nieces and 

12 nephews by then.

13 And to see that 23 years later so little

14 action has been taken in spite of the dire 

15 consequences for our children, for our future 

16 generations, for this grave intergenerational 

17 inequity that is looming.

18 However, many people have already spoken 

19 from the science perspective, but what I'd like 

20 to emphasize is that climate change is a moral 

21 issue with -- and that it has a growing faith 

22 community calling for action. The scientific 

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1 evidence is important, but what is also gaining 

2 awareness is the human injustice to those who 

3 have contributed the least to the existing 

4 problem. 

5 They are already the least of the problem 

6 and yet, they are currently being the most 

7 harmed. Already glacial lakes in the Himalayas, 

8 other highlands of the world are starting to fail 

9 and wiping out communities. That is already

10 happening. That will only increase.

11 There is, of course, severe weather 

12 already hurting those living in lowland areas. 

13 The evidence of decline to our life support 

14 systems is really undeniable, such as the effects 

15 to our freshwater systems, our fresh air, our 

16 food supply, lands, and I am talking globally, 

17 all resources that the human population cannot 

18 afford to have compromised. 

19 The risks, and let me emphasize the word, 

20 risk, because I -- I'm a risk management 

21 professional, by the way. The risks of climate 

22 change need to be addressed and managed now for 

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1 the best chance for future generations to exist 

2 without the unprecedented stress on the resources 

3 that is predicted, not to mention all of those 

4 associated with global security.

5 This EPA action is a step towards 

6 Americans -- it's a step towards showing 

7 Americans that we take the injustice of climate 

8 change seriously and it demonstrates to other 

9 nations that we will do our part as the heads of 

10 state build towards a fair ambitious and binding 

11 U.S. global climate agreement in 2015.

12 If America acts, other nations will take 

13 note, and there is some evidence that they will 

14 act too, and we all need to act together to truly 

15 manage global climate change, a global solution 

16 that includes American leadership is required. 

17 Thank you, EPA, for stepping up and getting us 

18 started. 

19 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Ms. Marlin. And 

20 thank you to everybody who's come to participate 

21 today, whether you were a speaker or an audience 

22 member, we appreciate it. And well take a five 

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1 minute break now.

2 [Recess from 4:08 to 4:28 p.m.]

3 MS. ESHER: Come up to the podium right 

4 up here, and what I'd ask you to do is state and 

5 spell your name for the court reporter.

6 MS. MILBURN: Okay. Stand or sit or --

7 MS. ESHER: Oh, no, sit. Yeah, make 

8 yourself comfortable, take a minute. 

9 MS. MILBURN: Jan Milburn, J-a-n, 

10 M-i-l-b-u-r-n. Ligonier, PA.

11 My family has resided in western 

12 Pennsylvania for generations and my attachment to 

13 this area has only been marred by the air 

14 pollution and the illnesses it causes. I 

15 strongly urge the EPA to take action to protect 

16 our air and health. According to a recent poll, 

17 more than two-thirds of Americans agree.

18 Pennsylvania ranks second worst in the 

19 nation in overall power plant pollution. As an 

20 important co-benefit of cutting carbon, particle 

21 pollution, nitrogen oxides and sulfur dioxide 

22 will be cut by more than 25 percent.

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1 Coal fired power plants are responsible 

2 for about 90 percent of the power sector CO2. 

3 Clean Air Task Force estimates that they were 

4 responsible for 13,000 premature deaths, 20,000 

5 heart attacks and 9,700 additional 

6 hospitalizations in 2011. Those costs are not 

7 factored into coal's market price.

8 Greene and Washington County spend over 

9 $300,000 from the health effects from dirty power 

10 plants. And the Air pollution is linked to 

11 diseases never before realized, diabetes, 

12 attention deficit disorder, autoimmune, 

13 Parkinson's, strokes and heart disease.

14 Coal has only been affordable over the 

15 decades because we have been footing the brunt of 

16 the bill and healthcare costs. Doctors note that 

17 the carbon pollution cycle is dangerous for 

18 children. Carbon raises air temperatures, which 

19 worsens smog, which triggers asthma attacks and 

20 can permanently reduce lung function in children.

21 Emergency room visits for respiratory 

22 problems can double on high ozone days and asthma 

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1 attacks increase by a third when ozone levels 

2 reach even half the legal level.

3 Dr. Jacobson of Stanford identified for 

4 the first time the direct link between increased 

5 CO2 and increases in mortality. For ever degree 

6 Celsius caused by carbon dioxide, the resulting 

7 air pollution leads annually to about a thousand 

8 additional deaths, and many more cases of 

9 respiratory illness, asthma and heart disease, 

10 including out of hospital arrest.

11 Carbon dioxide increases mortality due 

12 to increased ozone, particles and carcinogens in 

13 the air. Increased water vapor due to carbon 

14 dioxide induced high temperature boosts ozone 

15 production.

16 Where there was an increase in water 

17 vapor, particles are present and became more 

18 deadly as they swelled from the absorption of 

19 water.

20 Ultimately, you inhale a greater 

21 abundance of harmful chemicals due to carbon 

22 dioxide and associated climate change. That link 

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1 appears quite solid, he said.

2 Jacobson said the logical next step is to 

3 reduce carbon dioxide, and that would reduce its 

4 warming effect and improve the health of the 

5 people in the United States.

6 In Westmoreland County where I reside and 

7 much of western PA, we're in the state of 

8 non-attainment for ozone, awarded a grade of D by 

9 the American Lung Association for ozone 

10 pollution. We have a high incidence of asthmatic 

11 children and high rates of cancers and certain 

12 birth defects.

13 The Post-Gazette series on the 14-county 

14 Pittsburgh area presented data on air pollution 

15 and our risks. Almost every county exceeded 

16 national averages of heart disease and 

17 respiratory disease rates. Three counties exceed 

18 lung cancer rates. The total number of excess 

19 deaths from those three diseases is a ten percent 

20 higher mortality rate than overall national 

21 rates.

22 Based on the latest PM data Pittsburgh 

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1 still ranks as one of the worst urban areas of 

2 the country according to the Clean Air Task 

3 force. The air is not clean and it's killing 

4 people.

5 The rate of asthma is far higher than 

6 average. Many school districts have 13 to 17 

7 percent of children with asthma, and in one area 

8 district, 37 percent of the students are 

9 asthmatic.

10 Pittsburgh has some of the worst levels 

11 of particle pollution than anywhere in the 

12 country, according to a recent news report. The 

13 Director of Clean Water Action said of the asthma 

14 statistics, this is a public health emergency. 

15 Numbers over 30 percent are off the chart high.

16 Children who live in highly polluted 

17 communities are five times more likely to have 

18 clinically low lung function, less than 80 

19 percent of the lung function normal for their 

20 age.

21 I have two asthmatic daughters. I know 

22 how severe asthma changes a child's life, 

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1 resulting in them missing important childhood 

2 events and interfering with their education, 

3 social life and emotional development.

4 Then there is the economic burden on 

5 families. But do not change reliance on coal to 

6 reliance on gas, exchanging one dirty fossil fuel 

7 for another. Or nuclear energy with its own 

8 problems.

9 Just one gas compressor station can add 

10 tons of pollutants to our air. Westmoreland 

11 County, alone, has 26 new compressor stations and 

12 processing plants since about '08 when fracking 

13 began.

14 Methane produced by gas operations also 

15 contributes to ozone, and it is produced at far 

16 higher rates than originally thought, and it's a 

17 potent greenhouse gas, at least 20 to 30 times 

18 more potent than CO2.

19 The Marcellus Shale is perfectly situated 

20 to worsen existing ozone and PM non-attainment in 

21 the northeastern U.S., Joe Osborne Gas. There is 

22 only one solution to our energy problems and 

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1 that's renewables. I want my tax dollars to go 

2 towards a healthy future for my family and that 

3 can only happen with rigorous regulation of 

4 fossil fuels, and generous tax credits and other 

5 government facilitation of the development of 

6 renewables. 

7 Industry has always complained of the 

8 inability to meet environmental standards. 

9 Improvement will only happen with government 

10 regulation, it will not happen voluntarily.

11 Meanwhile, residents of Pennsylvania pay 

12 for this industry with their health and their 

13 healthcare dollars. 

14 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Ms. Milburn.

15 MS. MILBURN: And then I have a copy to 

16 turn in, do I --

17 MS. ESHER: Yeah. No, just go ahead and 

18 stay seated, we'll get it afterwards.

19 MS. MILBURN: Okay, okay. 

20 MS. ESHER: And I didn't get a chance to 

21 tell you, there is a timer here for the five 

22 minutes. You were fine and well within it but I 

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1 just thought I'd tell you that was going.

2 And so Mr. Milburn?

3 MR. MILBURN: Hi. I'm Jack Milburn, 

4 Ligonier, Pennsylvania. Prior to retirement, I 

5 spent over 30 years in the electric utility and 

6 independent power producer industries here in 

7 Pennsylvania. I am, therefore, very familiar 

8 with most aspects of that energy sector and I'm 

9 quite knowledgeable about numerous power 

10 generation plants in Pennsylvania, Ohio and West 

11 Virginia. 

12 During that time period many 

13 technological changes occurred. For example, in 

14 the late '80s and '90s, great strides were made 

15 in the development of equipment and systems that 

16 now capture high levels of particulates, SO2, NOx 

17 and mercury from the burning of coal.

18 At that time coal and power generation 

19 industry advocates argued vociferously that this 

20 would destroy the industry and be cost 

21 prohibitive. Neither, of course, was true.

22 What caused the development of these 

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1 technologies by private industry with some 

2 financial incentives from the federal government? 

3 Necessity. Truly the mother of invention.

4 When clean air legislation passed, 

5 pollution reduction became necessary, and the 

6 energy industry realized that it could no longer 

7 stall the inevitable, and it made plans to invest 

8 billions of dollars in pollution control 

9 equipment. I strongly believe that if additional 

10 carbon reductions are mandated, the same will 

11 occur now, with technology, again, providing cost 

12 effective solutions to our energy needs.

13 Many older coal plants have, of course, 

14 shut down over the years and many more will close 

15 in the future. Generally, these plants are 

16 mid-size in terms of power generation capacity, 

17 and they are well beyond their expected plant 

18 design life. The plant owners, therefore, chose 

19 to invest only the minimum amount of capital 

20 dollars in these plants for many years.

21 Indeed, if you spoke with the plant work 

22 forces, in many cases they would tell you that 

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1 they believe the plant's safety has been 

2 compromised due to lack of adequate maintenance.

3 While coal currently represents a 

4 significant portion of U.S. power generation, it 

5 cannot and will not last But for now it can and 

6 should be made cleaner with technology 

7 investment.

8 Natural gas is not a so called bridge 

9 fill when you consider the entire life cycle 

10 pollution of that fossil fuel. And of course, in 

11 my opinion nuclear is clearly not a long term 

12 energy solution.

13 Renewable energy is the only feasible 

14 answer to our long term energy needs and other 

15 nations are doing far better and moving towards 

16 this solution to climate change and associated 

17 environmental health problems. Norway, Sweden 

18 and even Germany, for example, have very high 

19 utilization of renewable energy for their power 

20 generation in terms of percentage of total 

21 required energy.

22 Most Americans, frankly, are ashamed of 

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1 the lack of such energy leadership in the U.S. A 

2 few U.S. companies get it. One of the largest 

3 independent power producers that has a huge fleet 

4 of coal fired plants is also investing heavily in 

5 existing and new solar and wind energy -- wind 

6 plant capacity. Others are likely to do the 

7 same.

8 I am sympathetic to the ultimate loss of 

9 coal producing jobs and I am no stranger to job 

10 losses as my colleagues and I dealt with several 

11 years of job losses due to mergers, acquisitions 

12 and corporate restructurings in the electric 

13 utility industry directly resulting from the 

14 deregulation of the power generation sector in

15 that industry.

16 So we all have to change and progress. 

17 Renewable forms of energy such as solar and wind 

18 power are increasingly creating jobs and have the 

19 potential to create many more. As fossil fuels 

20 become increasingly difficult and expensive to 

21 extract, renewables become more cost effective by 

22 comparison.

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1 Large portions of certain energy grids, 

2 both in the U.S. and around the world are being 

3 supplied by renewables and has shifted his 

4 industries, who represents many stable and long 

5 term jobs for Pennsylvanians and other 

6 American's. 

7 The EPA should develop a rule that 

8 reduces carbon dioxide emissions, not only by 

9 forcing existing fossil fueled power plants who 

10 will make less, but also by encouraging to shift 

11 to renewable energy and development of effective 

12 energy efficiency programs.

13 The EPA and DOE must continue to 

14 financially support the development of cost 

15 effective renewable forms of energy. Such 

16 support must be significant and at least equal to 

17 clean coal initiatives and all other forms of 

18 energy. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

19 MS. ESHER: Thank you. Thank you both 

20 for coming today. 

21 So at this point we don't have any other 

22 speakers, so we'll take a break until someone 

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1 else arrives.

2 [Recess from 4:37 to 4:30 p.m.]

3 MS. ESHER: If you could spell your name 

4 for the court reporter, that would be great. And 

5 there's a five minute limit, so we have a timer 

6 here. You'll see when there's one minute left it 

7 will go onto yellow and then it will buzz when 

8 the five minutes are over.

9 MS. LANGELAND: Okay. Last name is 

10 Langeland, L-a-n-g-e-l-a-n-d, first name Heather, 

11 H-e-a-t-h-e-r.

12 Good afternoon. My name is Heather 

13 Langeland and I fully support the EPA's proposed 

14 standard. It should be implemented promptly and 

15 without changes that water it down in any way. 

16 Setting limits on the carbon pollution 

17 causing climate change will spur investment and 

18 innovation and clean energy technologies to 

19 modernize and clean up power plants.

20 New clean energy technologies that 

21 produce less carbon pollution will create a new 

22 generation of clean energy jobs. Since 1970, 

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1 every dollar invested in compliance with the 

2 Clean Air Act standards has yielded four to eight 

3 dollars in economic benefits.

4 Each time an extreme weather event takes 

5 a community around the country, the economic 

6 impact can be devastating.

7 From 2011 to 2013 alone, damages from 

8 extreme weather events have exceeded 200 billion 

9 dollars. While extreme weather events cost 

10 communities millions, inaction on climate change 

11 raises cost related to health care and hurts 

12 productivity through school and work days lost to 

13 hurricanes, blizzards, extreme heat and dirty 

14 air.

15 The good news is that American's are 

16 ready for their leaders in government to take 

17 action. A February 2014 Sierra Club poll found 

18 that seven out of ten Americans favor setting 

19 limits on carbon pollution from power plants.

20 The poll also found that 66 percent 

21 believe climate change is a serious problem and 

22 what the government to address it. Further, 

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1 Americans are willing to put their money where 

2 their mouth is. a poll conducted by researchers 

3 from Harvard and Yale found that the average 

4 American is willing to pay $162 a year for 

5 cleaner energy. 

6 We have an obligation to our children and 

7 future generations to address the primary cause 

8 of climate change, the unlimited dumping of 

9 carbon pollution into our air by power plants. 

10 The proposed carbon pollution standard will 

11 protect us from the health risks and other 

12 impacts of climate change. Please adopt the 

13 standard. Thank you.

14 And at this point we have no other 

15 speakers, so we'll take a beak until they arrive. 

16 Thank you, again.

17 [Recess from 4:38 to 4:40 p.]

18 MS. ESHER: If you would move here with 

19 the mike, that would be great. And make yourself 

20 comfortable. So let me give you a little bit in 

21 what the rules are, what's going to happen. So 

22 there's a five minute limit on how long you can 

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1 talk. Here's the timer and we'll turn it on and 

2 when you have one minute left it will show yellow 

3 and then when your time is up it actually flashes 

4 and buzzes. So that will let you know that.

5 I'd ask you to spell your name for our 

6 court reporter so she can have your correct 

7 spelling. 

8 MR. SHEETS: And can I give my business 

9 cards to you and the court reporter? 

10 MS. ESHER: If you can do that, that will 

11 help with your name spelling. So that's great. 

12 Thank you. 

13 So take your time and when you're ready 

14 to go you can sit down and begin. Thank you very 

15 much. 

16 MR. SHEETS: Before I begin could I ask 

17 you a question?

18 MS. ESHER: Yes.

19 MR. SHEETS: Could I just -- and I know 

20 you've done it and I apologize, I came in late. 

21 Could you introduce yourself?

22 MS. ESHER: Oh, of course. I'm Diana 

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1 Esher. I'm the director of the Air Program in 

2 EPA Region 3.

3 MR. ARNOLD: I'm Dave Arnold, I'm the 

4 Deputy Director of the Air Protection Division in 

5 Region 3.

6 MR. GORDON: And I'm Mike Gordon. I work 

7 in the Officer of Air Permits and Toxics in 

8 Region 3.

9 MR. SHEETS: Thank you. 

10 MS. ESHER: Sure.

11 MR. SHEETS: I'll get my notes out and I 

12 will --

13 MS. ESHER: Take your time. And thank 

14 you for coming, we appreciate it.

15 MR. SHEETS: It's a good opportunity. 

16 I'm going to stand up because I'm a nervous 

17 speaker. I'm going to start my own timer.

18 MS. ESHER: Okay. If you go a little 

19 over it's really fine.

20 MR. SHEETS: Oh, okay.

21 MS. ESHER: Yes. Yes. I just wanted to 

22 tell you we got that, so that if it buzzed you 

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1 didn't -- you know, you weren't surprised.

2 MR. SHEETS: Okay, Okay.

3 MS. ESHER: You'll be fine.

4 MR. SHEETS: I know that it is like to 

5 try to keep people to a time, so I appreciate 

6 that.

7 Well, good afternoon. Thank you for the 

8 opportunity to appear in front of you. My name 

9 is Nicky Sheets. I am representing two 

10 organizations. I work at Common Sense, a state 

11 college in New Jersey, where I am the Director 

12 for the Center for the Urban Environment. And 

13 I'm also a member of the New Jersey Environmental 

14 Justice Alliance, and I'm representing that 

15 organization also.

16 And I have come all the way from New 

17 Jersey to testify for five minutes about the 

18 carbon rule. And I've done that because I think 

19 there is a critical omission in the rule.

20 Speaking from the environmental justice 

21 perspective, I'm a member of the environmental 

22 justice community. I was really stunned as I 

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1 read the rule to find out that it does not 

2 address equity or environmental justice. 

3 And in fact, it not only does not address 

4 equity or environmental justice, but at times it 

5 actually runs away from the issue. For example, 

6 one part of the rule, it conceded that emissions, 

7 carbon dioxide emissions may actually increase at 

8 some locations. 

9 And of course, the problem with this is 

10 that along with the carbon dioxide, you'll have 

11 some toxic air pollutants probably increase, like 

12 particulate matter and its precursors. And this 

13 has the potential of causing real harm to the 

14 health of the residents living near those 

15 facilities.

16 But the state doesn't address that. It 

17 punts on the issue totally. It says well the 

18 states can address that. It doesn't even say the 

19 states should address that. It says the states 

20 can address that.

21 And from an environmental justice 

22 prospective, that's insufficient and 

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1 unacceptable. The rule should incorporate from 

2 environmental justice, you'll hear me say EJ a 

3 lot, from the EJ perspective, the rule should 

4 incorporate at least three things to address 

5 environmental justice concerns and equity. 

6 The first and most important is there 

7 should be some mechanism in the rule that ensures 

8 we get reductions of carbon dioxide in and near 

9 vulnerable environmental justice communities that 

10 are over burdened with pollution.

11 When I refer to environmental justice 

12 communities, I'm talking about communities of 

13 color and low income communities. And again, the 

14 reasons we want those reductions of carbon 

15 dioxide is because you're also going to get 

16 reductions of greenhouse gas, toxic coal 

17 pollutants. And the ones we're worried the most 

18 about are particulate matter.

19 And the rule is that does quantify, and 

20 when you get reduction of the coal pollutants, 

21 you get the co-benefits to help. And the rule, 

22 in fact, does quantify those reductions, but it 

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1 doesn't tell where they're going to occur, and we 

2 need them to occur in the communities that need 

3 them the most.

4 So think about this. You have a rule 

5 that is probably going to be the most important 

6 rule, environmental rule ever promulgated by EPA, 

7 and it doesn't guarantee that we're going to get 

8 reductions in the neighborhoods that have the 

9 most pollution. There's something wrong with 

10 that. 

11 Okay, so that's one thing. Reductions of 

12 the EJ neighborhoods. 

13 The second thing, I've talked about coal 

14 pollutants. We also think the rule should 

15 intentionally maximize reduction of coal 

16 pollutants. So you get accidental reduction of 

17 coal pollutants, but in order to maximize your 

18 co-benefits, your health benefits with that, you 

19 should maximize your reduction of coal 

20 pollutants.

21 How do you do that? Well, by developing 

22 strategies that ensure you not only to 

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1 significant reductions of carbon dioxide, but 

2 that you're also going to get significant 

3 reductions of coal pollutants. Particularly 

4 particulate matter and its precursors.

5 Now, let me say this though. If the rule 

6 doesn't maximize those reductions of coal 

7 pollutants, we still want the reductions of 

8 carbon dioxide because of the accidental 

9 reductions you're going to give the coal 

10 pollutants and the co-benefits that go with them.

11 So that's two, ensure reductions, address 

12 coal pollutants intentionally. 

13 And the third is there needs to be some 

14 type of environmental justice analysis. There's 

15 no environmental justice analysis in the rule. 

16 And at the very least the type of balances I'm 

17 talking about is what facilities are in the near 

18 EJ communities, and where are reductions or 

19 increases -- increases, you know, leave the hot 

20 spots -- where are they going to occur under the 

21 rule? And the rule basically again, it punts on 

22 this issue. The rule says we don't know where --

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1 and we're talking about increases. We don't know 

2 where increases are going to occur. We can't 

3 tell, and doing the analysis, I think it says 

4 impracticable.

5 The problem is, there didn't seem to be 

6 any attempt to do this analysis. So again, 

7 insufficient, unacceptable from an environmental 

8 justice perspective.

9 So let me close by saying this, the EPA 

10 has told the environmental justice community 

11 consistently that environmental justice is a 

12 priority they need to get. But this rule is not 

13 at all consistent with that.

14 The rule does not ensure reductions in EJ 

15 neighborhoods and maybe worse yet, and again, not 

16 ensuring those reductions is inconsistent with 

17 saying that environmental justice is a priority 

18 within EPA. The rule does not do any 

19 environmental justice analyses. 

20 And again, not doing the environmental 

21 justice analyses is inconsistent with saying that 

22 EJ is a priority within EPA. The rule uses an 

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1 averaging method and allows carbon trading, which 

2 again, neither of which ensure that you get 

3 reductions in the EJ neighborhoods and why we've 

4 been opposed to carbon trading.

5 Obviously, you've put a lot of thought in 

6 ensuring the rule allows states to achieve 

7 reasonable reductions over a reasonable amount of 

8 time, but the EPA needs to put as much thought 

9 and as much effort into ensuring that the rule 

10 addresses equity and environmental justice 

11 concerns, and the environmental justice community 

12 is ready to help EPA think that through. Thank 

13 you. I took over five minutes. Thank you. 

14 MS. ESHER: Thank you, Mr. Sheets. 

15 MR. SHEETS: Okay.

16 MS. ESHER: Thank you. for coming. It 

17 was such a long drive. We appreciate it.

18 MR. SHEETS: Well, we thought -- we think 

19 it's important to get the message out that we 

20 have concerns about the rule.

21 MS. ESHER: So we'll break until 6:00 and 

22 then we'll open up again.

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1 [Dinner recess from 5:00 to 6:00 p.m.]

2 MR. HERBER: Are we ready? Good 

3 evening. It's 5:58 and we're going to open our 

4 evening session, our final session of our Public 

5 Hearing in Pittsburgh.

6 My name is Mike Herber and I work in 

7 EPA's headquarters in North Carolina. And I'll 

8 be chairing this evening's session.

9 Joining me on the panel are Diana Esher 

10 with our EPA Regional Office in Philadelphia and 

11 Debra Dalcher with our EPA Air Headquarter's 

12 office in North Carolina.

13 We're here today to listen to your 

14 comments on two proposed EPA rules to reduce 

15 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

16 announced both of these rules on June 2nd. 

17 I have a number of other procedural 

18 announcements, but given the small crowd, and in 

19 fact, we only have one speaker, I will forego 

20 most of those, But I will note that we do have a 

21 five minute speaking limit and we have a timer 

22 that Diana will start in just a minute. So you 

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1 may want to pay attention to that.

2 When it flashes from green to yellow, it 

3 means you have one minute remaining. When it 

4 turns red, it will buzz and you'll hear the buzz. 

5 That means it's time to stop.

6 MR. CAREY: All right.

7 MR. HERBER: So with that, why don't we 

8 get started and I'd like to introduce our first 

9 speaker -- they usually give me cards, I didn't 

10 get a card. Mike Carey, I'm sorry. 

11 MR. CAREY: All right 

12 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your name 

13 for the record?

14 MR. CAREY: C-a-r-e-y.

15 Good evening. My name is Mike Carey. I 

16 am Vice-President of the Murray Energy 

17 Corporation. I'm pleased to speak tonight on the 

18 U.S. EPA, Environmental Protection Agency's 

19 regulations. 

20 Murray Energy is the largest privately 

21 held coal company in the United States. We are 

22 also the third largest coal company in terms of 

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1 production. We're the largest coal operator in 

2 Ohio, West Virginia. The second largest in 

3 Illinois, and we have operations in both Kentucky 

4 and Utah, and our barging operation is located 

5 here in Pennsylvania.

6 Murray Energy is deeply concerned and 

7 vehemently opposed to these rules. Previous 

8 regulations from the EPA and other federal 

9 agencies have already imposed regulatory burdens 

10 on our industry and workers that we simply cannot 

11 sustain.

12 Recent Obama Administrations have already 

13 done substantial damage to the coal fired fleet 

14 resolving in thousands of lost jobs across the 

15 United States, and irreversible economic damage 

16 to communities that rely on coal for their living 

17 and their tax base.

18 It will further raise costs for natural 

19 gas and it will increase consumer and industrial 

20 electric rates. It is becoming increasingly 

21 clear that this proposal, especially combined 

22 with the EPA regulations, would pose very serious 

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1 threats to the reliability of the electric grid 

2 resulting in brown outs, rolling black outs and 

3 thereby threatening the public safety and health.

4 The drastic electric power cost increases 

5 will be borne primarily by American's on fixed 

6 incomes and at the lower economic levels, and by 

7 manufacturers who produce products for the global 

8 marketplace.

9 Here are some of the key facts and 

10 figures associated with this proposal. EPA has 

11 always claimed that the industry over estimates 

12 the cost of the regulations, giving examples from 

13 the 1970s. But what is lost to the public, and 

14 also to the media, is that the EPA's predictions 

15 on coal plant retirements just over the last five 

16 years, the EPA predicted that less than ten 

17 gigawatts of plant closures from the most recent 

18 regulations. We have already seen 338 coal fired 

19 units announce retirements, representing over 51 

20 gigawatts, five times the EPA estimate, and 

21 that's before these carbon regulations.

22 The National Coal counsel on which I

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1 serve, an official advisory body to the secretary 

2 of energy founded these closures and increasing 

3 the amounts on natural gas for generation are 

4 adversely impacting reliability, affordability 

5 and supply.

6 One need look no further than last year's 

7 polar vortex to understand the dangers that we 

8 are in if we continue down this path. In order 

9 to meet the demand during the vortex, 

10 American Electric Power relied on over 89 

11 percent of its coal fired capacity, which is 

12 slated to close in April 16th of 2015. 

13 The southern company relied on 75 percent 

14 if its announced closures. After the vortex Nick 

15 Akins, the CEO of American Electric Power stated, 

16 "The weather events experienced this winter 

17 provide an early warning about the serious issues 

18 with electric supply and reliability. The 

19 country not just dodged a bullet, it dodged a 

20 cannonball."

21 EPA also needs to consider the impacts of 

22 requiring Americans on fixed incomes to pay even 

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1 more of their hard earned limited income towards 

2 their energy bills. Since 2001, cost of middle 

3 income and lower income families on electricity 

4 have gone up over 27 percent. And in that same 

5 time period they have seen their after tax income 

6 fall 22 percent.

7 These impacts are dangerous enough on 

8 their own, but for all of the job losses

9 increased prices and decreased grid reliability, 

10 the proposal will not deliver any tangible 

11 climate, environmental or public health benefits. 

12 For example, CO2 in the atmosphere will be 

13 reduced by less than one percent under this 

14 proposal by 2050. The average temperature 

15 around the globe will be reduced by .016 degree 

16 Fahrenheit also by 2050.

17 Not only will the proposal continue to 

18 harm American workers, families and our economy, 

19 it will provide no benefits in return, all pain 

20 for no gain is not a sensible public policy. 

21 I appreciate the opportunity to appear 

22 before you this evening. Thank you.

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1 MR. HERBER: Thank you, Mr. Carey. 

2 Questions from the panelists?

3 Okay, thank you so much for being here 

4 tonight, I appreciate it.

5 MR. CAREY: Good evening. Thank you. 

6 MR. HERBER: Next I'd like to call Harold 

7 Hoem and John Parker Blear. My apologies for any 

8 mispronunciation. Mr. Hoem.

9 MR. HOEM: Yes, that's Hoem.

10 MR. HERBER: Thank you. 

11 MR. HOEM: Let me get my thoughts 

12 together here for a moment. 

13 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your name?

14 MR. HOEM: Harold Hoem, H-o-e-m.

15 Go ahead and start?

16 MR. HERBER: Yes, sir.

17 MR. HOEM: My name is Harold Hoem and 

18 I've come here from Montana as a member of 

19 Montana Elders for a Livable Tomorrow, or MELT, 

20 to speak in support of the EPA Clean Power Plan 

21 and carbon pollution standards.

22 I'm from a mining family. My grandfather 

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1 was from Cornwall and came to Butte, Montana in 

2 the 1880s. He died in his forties from lung 

3 disease associated with this life underground, so 

4 I never got to know him.

5 I, myself, worked in the underground 

6 copper mines of Butte right out of high school 

7 and before going to college. I also worked 

8 several years as a smoke jumper fighting wild 

9 land fires. Later in Naval Intelligence in Japan 

10 and Vietnam, and spent over 25 years as a 

11 commercial fisherman in the Pacific and in 

12 Alaska.

13 Montana is no stranger to the finding and 

14 getting of mineral wealth, or to the super fun 

15 clean ups that usually seem to follow. We also 

16 have large coal deposits, but those who tap the 

17 billions of tons of coal reserves don't like to 

18 dwell on the billions more tons of harmful 

19 pollutions emitted from burning that coal, toxins 

20 like arsenic, and mercury, and sulfur, and 

21 climate changing CO2.

22 One of our members is a former coal mine 

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1 manager who has said the main problem with the 

2 coal industry is the product is poison. Health 

3 impacts the young, the elderly the hardest. 

4 Heart disease, lung disease, cancer and strokes. 

5 Children are the canaries in the coal mine. They 

6 breathe more air per pound, are active outdoors 

7 and are in the act of development. Asthma and 

8 other lung diseases are increasing.

9 I've seen acute asthma attacks as a rural 

10 area EMT, and believe me they can be life or 

11 death moments that you don't forget.

12 Montana's Colstrip Power Plant is one of 

13 the biggest carbon polluters in the nation and 

14 the biggest polluter in Montana. Most of the 

15 power goes out of state and the power that stays 

16 in the state is one of our most expensive 

17 regulated resources, almost twice the cost of 

18 wind.

19 On the plus side, Montana has the second 

20 best wind resource. It's a little underutilized, 

21 but the second best wind resource in the country. 

22 It has great solar potential and it has a huge 

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1 potential for savings through efficiency 

2 measures. We want to see clean energy shift to 

3 other states. 

4 I think number one, the EPA should strike 

5 the national CO2 emissions goals to 40 percent of 

6 the 2012 levels by 2030.

7 Number two, EPA should increase Montana's 

8 emission reduction targets, currently 20 percent, 

9 the second least stringent standard in the 

10 country. 

11 And three, Montana's targets for 

12 renewable energy efficiency should be based on 

13 potential rather than on our existing renewable 

14 energy standards or achieved energy.

15 Montana is at the heart of the coal 

16 controversy. The coal industry is being out 

17 competed by cheaper and cleaner fuels like 

18 natural gas. So we wants to expert coal to Asia 

19 through proposed Pacific coast terminals. If 

20 these expert terminals are built, coal companies 

21 would like to open up new mines and expand old 

22 ones.

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1 Colstrip would become the largest strip 

2 mine in the nation. You would see destruction of 

3 some beautiful scenic landscapes. Eminent domain 

4 for new rail lines would divide ranch lands. 

5 Water quality would be degraded and ground water 

6 drawn down.

7 As for global warming and climate change 

8 in Montana, this means we're seeing more and 

9 larger wildfires of the dangerous kind. other 

10 western states are experiencing similar things. 

11 The recent Carlton fire in Washington state in 

12 the Methow Valley burned 400 square miles and 

13 destroyed the first two houses that I ever built.

14 Health impacts from heat and smoke, 

15 extreme weather events, changes in our seasons. 

16 Montana's ecosystems live on water from snow 

17 pack. Large beetle infestations are destroying 

18 huge swaths of our forest lands. We have 

19 droughts. Basically, higher temperatures cause 

20 more water to evaporate over a longer period of 

21 time faster.

22 We can't allow polluters and deniers to 

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1 obscure our sense of reality, like the tobacco 

2 industry tried to do before they were called to 

3 account. 

4 I recently saw a humorous note tacked on 

5 the wall at a doctor's office, to wit, "The past, 

6 the present and the future walked into a bar. It 

7 was tense." That pretty well sums up the human 

8 condition in the year 2014.

9 We have made some big missteps in the 

10 past. At the time that Ronald Reagan removed 

11 Carter's solar panels from the White House, we 

12 lost a chance to lead in solar energy. In other 

13 words, the Gipper dropped the ball and China 

14 picked it up.

15 We've seen CO2 levels rise to 400 parts 

16 per million, from 317 only 50 years ago. That's 

17 new territory for modern humans. How do you 

18 reverse that trend to have a chance at avoiding 

19 uncontrollable climate consequences. 

20 We will never have a better chance than 

21 now, and we really do need to get serious. Costs 

22 will only go up if we delay, and the odds of a 

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1 good fix will go down. 

2 There's hope for the future, though. 

3 We've been the alpha polluter in our country, but 

4 emissions are going down here. Even China, the 

5 new pollution champion, is acting. Their folks 

6 don't want to gag on their air either. They are 

7 building seven mega wind farms, and they're 

8 responding to their own carbon -- they're 

9 responding to their own carbon reduction plan as 

10 soon as the EPA announced theirs. 

11 Concerned scientists and citizens are 

12 speaking out more than ever before. Our Montana 

13 Elders Organization, MELT, is made up mostly of 

14 retirees from professions as varied as doctors, 

15 geologist, biologists, coal mine managers, 

16 government agency workers and energy company 

17 employees. They have lots of educators. 

18 We put together a video called Coal Road 

19 to China, which I would like to share with you 

20 folks. The idea in making it was that sometimes 

21 you have to see a place to care about it. I'd 

22 like to leave that with someone if I could.

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1 MS. DALCHER: It will become part of the 

2 record.

3 MR. HERBER: Yeah, we'll make sure it 

4 gets in the record.

5 MR. HOEM: Okay.

6 MR. HERBER: Thank you, Mr. Hoem and 

7 thank you for your years of service as well.

8 MR. HOEM: Thank you. 

9 MR. HERBER: Thank you. 

10 MR. PARKER-BLIER: Hi. My name is J.D. 

11 Parker-Blier and I'm a rising senior.

12 MR. HERBER: Could you spell that ?

13 MR. PARKER-BLIER: J.D. or John, 

14 actually, P-a-r-k-e-r, hyphen B-l-i-e-r.

15 And I'm a rising senior at Pittsburgh 

16 CAPA High School. Some of you may be wondering 

17 why I'm here. Why, as a seventeen-year-old, I 

18 would even care about this issue. Why would I 

19 take time out of my summer vacation to attend a 

20 boring old court hearing? 

21 On the contrary. I don't find this to be 

22 a boring old court hearing. In fact, I find it 

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1 terrifying. Since seventh or eighth grade I've 

2 been extremely passionate about the current 

3 environmental crisis. 

4 An essay that I wrote on the harmful 

5 effect so the fracking process in middle school 

6 sparked this passion. I became curious about 

7 what else lay festering in the open wound that is 

8 our dependence on non-renewable fuel resources.

9 After marinating in this knowledge for 

10 about three years, I was called again to address 

11 the issue of climate change. In the second essay 

12 I wrote about climate change, itself, what causes 

13 it, what it effects and what measures can be 

14 taken against it.

15 This allowed me to not only do research 

16 on what climate was in general, but also to begin 

17 to understand how it affects all manners of life, 

18 human and non.

19 This work is what, as my mom says, lit a 

20 fire in my belly, and is one of the main reasons 

21 why I'm standing before you -- or sitting, 

22 actually -- today.

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1 Climate change is the worst threat 

2 humankind has ever faced. It not only effects 

3 the environment but the world's economies and 

4 societies as well. And just the last hundred 

5 years, human industry has caused the global 

6 temperature to rise by approximately 1.4 degrees

7 Fahrenheit, causing drastic changes in weather 

8 patterns, melting ice caps and rising sea levels.

9 The primary activity contributing to 

10 global warming is the burning of non-renewable 

11 resource for fuel, such as fossil fuels and coal, 

12 which add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

13 At one of the listening sessions held by 

14 Pennsylvania Interfaith Power and Light Rabi 

15 Daniel Schwartz said, "This heritage of pollution 

16 of nothing compared to the problems we are 

17 bequeathing to future generations through our 

18 indiscriminate burning of fossil fuels. I am a 

19 part of that generation that is inheriting a 

20 warming planet. It's becoming clearer and 

21 clearer that our planet is suffering and so are 

22 the people on it. 

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1 If you look closely, compelling 

2 connections can be made between global disasters 

3 such as famine, drought, flood and the effects of 

4 a quickly warming planet. But it's not just 

5 global. It's local, too. Every time I walk down 

6 the street and watch a bus drive pass in a black 

7 cloud of smoke it feels as if my life force 

8 drains out of me slowly along with the earth's. 

9 I know the smoke belching from the coke works on 

10 the Ohio is often in violation of EPA standards 

11 for emissions. 

12 I live here in Pittsburgh. I breathe the 

13 thick air that is, according to the American Lung 

14 Association, some of the worst in the country. 

15 But I don't want my friends, Doug, who along with 

16 50,000 other kids in the region suffers from 

17 asthma, to breathe it as well.

18 I want four distinct seasons. I want to 

19 watch the news and not see reports on the melting 

20 ice caps, rising sea levels or drought in war 

21 torn Sub Saharan Africa, and I want people to 

22 have good jobs to support their families with 

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1 dignity as well.

2 My commitment to end the suffering of the 

3 planet extends to everyone and everything. 

4 Everything on earth is connected and everything 

5 must act together to keep this enormous organism 

6 in balance. Every action that we take has an 

7 impact.

8 This is why I would ask you to please, 

9 help our region, our country and our planet. 

10 Please enforce these regulations so that we can 

11 start to heal the world and the people on it. 

12 Thanks.

13 MR. HERBER: Thank you very much, we 

14 appreciate your testimony.

15 Mr. Hoem, did you have something you 

16 wanted to drop off to us to include in the 

17 record. I just want to make sure we get that 

18 before we go any further, since you did want to 

19 leave that with us.

20 And that's an extra we can keep for our 

21 records?

22 MR. HOEM: That's yours.

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1 MR. HERBER: Thank you very much. Thank 

2 you, sir, I appreciate you being here this 

3 evening.

4 Mr. Parker-Blier, you have a notebook up 

5 here. Thank you for being here this evening. Do 

6 appreciate you being here.

7 Next I'd like to call Lauren Stalter and 

8 Brett Phillips. And if both panelist could 

9 remain until you have both each spoken.

10 So I don't know if you've heard, we do 

11 have a timer to help you with your testimony. 

12 We're trying to limit testimony to five minutes.

13 Ms. Stalter, when you're ready. If you 

14 could spell your name for our court reporter?

15 MS. STALTER: It's Stalter, 

16 S-t-a-l-t-e-r. And I'm reading a testimony by 

17 Steve Sywensky, who is unable to make it today.

18 MR. HERBER: Could you spell that name, 

19 too, please?

20 MS. STALTER: S-y-w-e-n-s-k-y. 

21 "My name is Steve Sywensky. I'm the 

22 owner of FlyFisher's Paradise in State College. 

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1 Sport fishing or fishing for fun is big business 

2 in Pennsylvania. In fact, according to data from 

3 Penn State University, it is a nearly two billion 

4 dollar per year industry. By contrast, the 

5 National Football League is a 9.5 billion dollar 

6 annual business."

7 "For 40 years I've owned and operated a 

8 fishing tackle business in central Pennsylvania. 

9 My store employs six part-time workers as well as 

10 myself, of course, and uses more than a few 

11 vendors, many of whom are also from 

12 Pennsylvania."

13 "We also have customers and suppliers in 

14 states across the country. My business, whether 

15 looking at local trade or business in the larger 

16 sense, is highly dependent on water quality and 

17 wild fish stocks."

18 "Water temperature and especially cooler 

19 temperatures should also be viewed as a 

20 component of water quality. Warmer water holds 

21 less oxygen and encourage the growth of disease 

22 vectors, both of which are highly detrimental to 

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1 fish populations."

2 "Consistently warmer temperatures are 

3 extremely injurious to wild trout, the foundation 

4 upon which fly fishing businesses like my rest. 

5 Even when water fish, like smallmouth 

6 bass, however, have felt the impact of warming 

7 waters in central Pennsylvania, rivers like the 

8 Juniata and Susquehanna."

9 "Warm water occasioned by climate change 

10 certainly has contributed to the population crash 

11 of smallmouth in both rivers. In addition to a 

12 negative economic impact, climate change is also 

13 threatening what is a long tradition in sport 

14 fishing in Pennsylvania."

15 "The first split cane rods in America 

16 were manufactured in Pennsylvania. Authors have 

17 sampled the superb trout waters of Pennsylvania 

18 and their writing has brought the angling public 

19 with their tourist dollars to our state."

20 "Our fine wild fish populations and our 

21 strong tradition of angling for them should be 

22 zealously guarded, zealously managed and passed 

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1 on to our children and grandchildren, not thrown 

2 onto the trash heap of fossil fuel."

3 "At one time we thought using DDT was 

4 necessary. We now know better. Similarly, we 

5 thought our use of fossil fuels had no 

6 consequences. We now know better. We need to 

7 begin the process of reducing use of these dirty 

8 fuels as fast as possible so that our future 

9 generations can enjoy the same fishing and 

10 hunting heritage that we have been privilege to 

11 enjoy."

12 "Your rule is a good first step, but we 

13 need to do more. I urge you to revise your 

14 proposed rule to require even deeper reductions 

15 in carbon pollution. Global warming is already 

16 harming my business and all of us who work in the 

17 outdoor recreation industry. There is no time to 

18 lose."

19 MR. HERBER: Thank you very much. Mr. 

20 Phillips?

21 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes, sir. 

22 MR. HERBER: Could you spell your name for 

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1 the reporter? 

2 MR. PHILLIPS: Brett, B-r-e-t-t, 

3 Phillips, P-h-i-l-l-i-p-s. 

4 A question that we have at hand is, is 

5 there a cleaner, cheaper, reliable energy source. 

6 As there are policies that can make this business 

7 model work to have cleaner, cheaper, reliable 

8 energy. And there is. 

9 I'm a renewable energy developer. I'm 

10 from Hawaii, moved to the mainland here, and we 

11 develop solar farms, utility skill and businesses 

12 using a power purchase agreement. The price per 

13 kilowatt over there is around 38 cents per 

14 kilowatt hour, so the ROI is significantly higher 

15 than over here in America, the mainland.

16 Here in the mainland we have a great 

17 opportunity with energy deregulation to allow a 

18 business or a homeowner to receive some of their 

19 electricity from renewable sources, as well as 

20 our existing electrical sources.

21 For instance, if a place has a lot of 

22 wind or a lot of sun, those electrons would be 

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1 transferred out to a place that doesn't have a 

2 lot of wind or sun. Currently, this is a 

3 business model in place in about ten to fifteen 

4 states right now.

5 MR. HERBER: Please continue, I'm sorry. 

6 Did we forget to reset? Okay. I'm sorry. 

7 MR. PHILLIPS: Yeah, to promote this 

8 business model we have renewable credits, we have 

9 incentives for the development and the investors 

10 of the renewable energy. But in the proposed 

11 rule there is no incentive for the end user. I'm 

12 proposing that the rule be amended to allow a 

13 federal rebate in lieu of a credit to the end 

14 user for purchasing some of their electricity 

15 from a renewable energy source. 

16 So with energy deregulation, we still use 

17 the infrastructure that's in place, the 

18 transmission lines, but the actual source of 

19 where the electricity is being generated from can 

20 be private businesses.

21 Now, in the rule, it's a one to seven 

22 ratio, for every one dollar spent it's a seven 

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1 dollar return, and that's just on the smog that 

2 are mainly the effects of coal.

3 On this, if you were to invest into 

4 allowing the end user to have a rebate to pay the 

5 same price as the competitive electricity, it 

6 would be far more than one in seven, the reason 

7 being is that more jobs would be created. 

8 Eventually, the price per kilowatt hours would go 

9 down. The more renewable energy we have, the 

10 more innovation comes from better technology, the 

11 more electricity we'll have at a cheaper price. 

12 We don't run out of sun, we don't run out of 

13 wind. Any questions?

14 MR. HERBER: Questions? No? Thank you, 

15 sir. Ms. Stalter, Mr. Phillips, thank you very 

16 much for being here this evening. 

17 Next, I'd like to call Edward Chute and 

18 Gwen Chute. 

19 As they're getting settled, I'd just like 

20 to note that given that we're after 6:00 p.m., 

21 for security purposes, if you want to leave the 

22 building, we have to have somebody escort you 

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1 out, so we do have people at the back of the room 

2 that if you are planning to exit for the evening, 

3 should they see you, Angela or should they --

4 okay, we'll have some people outside to make sure 

5 that the people can get out safely. I think 

6 there's a running race going on outside, too, so 

7 there's probably a lot of excitement out there.

8 Ms. Chute, if you'd like to go first, it 

9 looks like you're ready?

10 MS. CHUTE: Yes, I'm ready. 

11 MR. HERBER: Okay, go for it.

12 MS. CHUTE: Okay, you want me to spell 

13 my name?

14 MR. HERBER: Yes, please.

15 MS. CHUTE: Gwen, G-w-e-n, C-h-u-t-e, 

16 Chute.

17 MS. HERBER: Good evening. My name is 

18 Gwen Chute and I live at 904 Valley View Road in 

19 Mt. Lebanon. I'm the Vice-Chair of the Allegany 

20 Sierra Club and Chair of their endangered species 

21 action team.

22 I'm a retired registered nurse with a 

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1 master's degree in maternal child health nursing. 

2 I work for many years in my clinical specialty 

3 before serving for 13 years on the faculty of the 

4 University of North Dakota School of Nursing, and 

5 then returning to my home state of Pennsylvania 

6 in 1991, where I worked in nursing education at 

7 McGee Women's and later at Westmoreland Hospital 

8 until retiring in 2008.

9 This work has left me with a deep and 

10 abiding interest in the health of women and 

11 children. But my focus has broadened in light of 

12 the inexorable advances of climate change. to 

13 concern about the health of our one and only 

14 planet and all its residents.

15 Last October my husband and I moved from 

16 Mt. Pleasant in Westmoreland County to Mt. 

17 Lebanon, one of the loveliest suburbs of 

18 Pittsburgh, in order to be closer to the 

19 activities and organizations in which we are 

20 involved.

21 We rejoice in the cultural revival of the 

22 city and enjoy the arts, sports and community 

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1 events that have made Pittsburgh one of America's 

2 livable cities. The one great detractor we have 

3 found has been the poor quality of our air. I 

4 had never suffered respiratory difficulty in my 

5 life. I was dismayed then to begin experiencing 

6 difficulty breathing on many of our daily walks, 

7 to find a thick ugly layer of black particulate 

8 matter coating our windowsills, and smelled a 

9 tell-tale stink of a coal fired plant wafting 

10 over our beautiful neighborhood.

11 Invisible but deadly, the pollutants that 

12 compromise our air quality are being sucked into 

13 the lungs of infants, children and residents of 

14 all ages. No wonder Pittsburgh has one of the 

15 highest asthma rates in the nation.

16 Given the deplorable air quality that 

17 sickens the residents of this fair city, I feel I 

18 must support the EPA Clean Power Plan with its 

19 potential to positively affect the health of 

20 women, children and indeed, all citizens. 

21 The urgency of our current situation, 

22 vis-a-vis, a rapidly warming planet demands our 

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1 support for the plan. To return to the 

2 alternative of doing nothing would clearly be 

3 folly.

4 That said, I confess to being less than 

5 thrilled with the EPA's plan, not because it 

6 demands too much, but because it demands far too 

7 little, and asks it far too late.

8 It is not a bold plan but a weak one. I 

9 would be eager to support a bolder, stronger plan 

10 that would one, cut emissions not only from power 

11 plants, but all sources of greenhouse gas. 

12 Two, target the extraction processes, not 

13 only of coal, but also of natural gas, a process 

14 that emits huge amounts of methane, a gas which 

15 is as much as 80 times more potent a greenhouse 

16 gas than carbon dioxide.

17 Three, greatly increase the emphasis on 

18 and incentivize the development and use of 

19 sustainable renewable energy sources, wind, 

20 solar, geothermal and others.

21 Four, eliminate rewards for domestic 

22 extraction of fossil fuels to be shipped overseas 

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1 and burned there. This would be a plan I would 

2 support without reservation. The planet requires 

3 nothing less. Thank you.

4 MR. HERBER: Thank you very much. Mr. 

5 Chute?

6 MR. CHUTE: I'm Edward Chute, 

7 E-d-w-a-r-d, C-h-u-t-e. 

8 I am Ed Chute. I live with my wife of 48 

9 years at 904 Valley View in the municipality of 

10 Mt. Lebanon near Pittsburgh, PA. I vividly 

11 remember attending elementary and high school in 

12 Pittsburgh when streetlights were required at 

13 mid-day because of the dense darkness at noon. 

14 And when the night skies were constantly 

15 illuminated nearly as well as our daylight hours 

16 by the industrial glow.

17 I remember being uprated by my elementary 

18 school teacher when I drew a yellow line across 

19 the page when told to draw a picture of the sun 

20 rather than the way it appeared in our readers. 

21 I didn't know the sun was round because it didn't 

22 look that way to me through the smoggy air, and I 

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1 had yet to live or travel beyond the region. 

2 Obviously, James Parton's 19th century 

3 description of Pittsburgh as Hell with the lid 

4 off was not just well deserved during my youth, 

5 but also caused by the particulate pollution in 

6 the air from the working steel mills and 

7 industrial factories fueled predominately by coke 

8 and coal.

9 Since that time Pittsburgh has undergone 

10 two renaissances. Cleaning the air so that we 

11 can now see that the sky is blue, not black --

12 sometimes gray -- and the day, the sun is a round 

13 orb.

14 The region has refocused, revitalized, 

15 and restructured its industrial, economic and 

16 cultural underpinnings. We may no longer top the 

17 list of most polluted cities in the U.S. and on 

18 the planet. Nonetheless, Pittsburgh still is 

19 below the pass threshold for every measure for 

20 air and water quality no matter what our 

21 politicians try to tell us.

22 Pittsburgh is still trying to move itself 

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1 politically away from this early and late 20th 

2 century political behaviors into an entirely new 

3 21st economically, perhaps even politically.

4 I sense that the EPA's proposal suffers 

5 from an analogous and similar too much political 

6 and economic baggage approach to become effective 

7 in dealing with climate change.

8 I note that the EPA's plan may have a 

9 fatal flaw for the planet's environment, because 

10 it appears to delay any sort of implementation 

11 until no sooner than 2025, more than a decade 

12 from now at the earliest, because EPA's plan 

13 depends so heavily on a set of successful 

14 negotiations and state level agreements prior 

15 even to initiating any serious reductions in 

16 pollutants. 

17 The EPA's plan restricts itself primarily 

18 to carbon emissions from electricity generating

19 plants, essentially ignoring such things as 

20 methane and carbon dioxide gas emissions, which 

21 pose even more serious long term threats to our 

22 breathable and protective atmosphere. 

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1 Any such top to bottom and then back to 

2 the top approach serves mainly to impede 

3 initiation and almost is destined to fail within 

4 our current political framework, populated with 

5 so many climate change deniers and fiduciary 

6 elites who value delay in order to make the 

7 proverbial hey today more than they do anything 

8 else, including their own children's and 

9 grandchildren's and species' future. 

10 Nearly everything about the EPA's 

11 proposal suffers from that wrong hattedness and 

12 mind set. The EPA's proposal concentrates fairly 

13 exclusively on pollution resulting from domestic 

14 consumption of carbon fuels, while ignoring the 

15 reality that the U.S. is not the only carbon 

16 polluting nation in the world. 

17 In fact, the EPA's proposal ignores 

18 fundamental source of the problem, extraction. 

19 If we leave the coal, the oil and the gas in the 

20 ground, we will have made a giant leap forward in 

21 reducing the greenhouse effect. Failing to deal 

22 with the domestic extraction of coal, oil and 

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1 natural gas will only encourage the investors who 

2 own or are leasing earth's resources to sell them 

3 abroad. Hence increasing and encouraging the 

4 planet's problem with pollution and extinction of 

5 its resources. 

6 Where is the EPA's recognition and 

7 position about the value, even necessity of 

8 renewable energy resources within the context of 

9 climate change? Rather than focusing on 

10 renewable sources of energy, the EPA proposal 

11 encourages investment in the extraction and 

12 exportation of our precious natural resources. 

13 Certainly there are even a more substantial 

14 number of politicians and economic financiers who 

15 do and will favor investment in such extraction 

16 export resources than there are even climate 

17 deniers -- climate change deniers.

18 Such folks potentially are even more 

19 significant in powerful opposition to any and all 

20 current and future attempts to save our one and 

21 only planet home from ourselves. In spite of the 

22 flaws -- I'm almost done -- I have delineated, I 

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1 still support the EPA's proposal because to do 

2 nothing is totally and completely unacceptable to 

3 me, my children, my grandchildren and the future 

4 survival of our species. 

5 Our planet has and will continue to 

6 change. It will probably remain for several more 

7 billions of years without us. The issue is, will 

8 any living species survive our recklessness that 

9 we alone and ameliorate and avoid if we act 

10 immediately and purposely. Thank you. 

11 MR. HERBER: Thank you. Mr. Chute, Mrs. 

12 Chute, than you very much for being here on a 

13 Friday night. We appreciate you being here.

14 We've had a number of people join us 

15 since we got started so I want to repeat just a 

16 couple of quick announcements. If you are here 

17 to speak, make sure you've checked in downstairs 

18 at the registration desk. I'll be calling up the 

19 speakers in pairs, and there's a five minute 

20 speaking limit. That's what our little timer is 

21 here for. 

22 And once again, when you are planning to 

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1 exit, because we're after six p.m. for security 

2 purposes, we have to escort you out, and we have 

3 folks at the back of the room or in the hall to 

4 help you with that. So if you do intend to leave 

5 for the evening, make sure they go with you.

6 And with that I'd like to call up our 

7 next two speakers, Adrienne Kaltman, Melissa 

8 McSwigan.

9 MS. KALTMAN: I'm Adrienne, 

10 A-d-r-i-e-n-n-e, K-a-l-t-m-a-n. 

11 Good evening. I'd like to personally 

12 thank you for this opportunity to come and speak 

13 before you today and for extending the comment 

14 period so that I could be here. 

15 As a resident of Southeast Florida with a 

16 law degree in land use planning and environmental 

17 law, I have been dedicated for more than a decade 

18 to combating the effects of climate change at the 

19 local, state and national levels.

20 While I am currently a member of the 

21 Broward Country Task Force on Climate Change, and 

22 Vice-Chair of Davie, Florida's Agriculture and 

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1 Environmental Advisory Committee, I am here today 

2 not speaking on their behalf but rather as a 

3 concerned citizen. 

4 South Florida, with its dense population, 

5 porous geology, low lying topography, is 

6 particularly vulnerable to the impacts of climate 

7 change and sea level rise. According to the 2010 

8 census, Broward's coastal communities are home to 

9 more than 620,000 residents, more than one-third 

10 of its total population.

11 Areas of Fort Lauderdale, Miami Beach and 

12 the Keys experience seasonal flooding and pairing 

13 downtown businesses and destroying residential 

14 and commercial properties. Last year storm surge 

15 from tropical storm Sandy destroyed 2,000 feet of 

16 A1A, a major roadway and evacuation root that 

17 resulted in the loss of access to natural 

18 resources and beachfront that residents and 

19 visitors alike enjoy with a price tag of over 21 

20 million dollars and a lot to repair, and a loss 

21 of much needed tourism dollars.

22 Florida relies on its tourism and 

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1 agricultural industries for a healthy economy, 

2 both of which are severely impacted by rising 

3 seas. In some areas sewers back up, 

4 contaminating city streets, and posing a great 

5 public health risk even on sunny days.

6 Saltwater flooding poses a great risk to 

7 vegetation. Just as saltwater intrusion into the 

8 Biscayne Aquifer poses a dangerous threat to the 

9 drinking water of South Florida residents.

10 Both private residences and commercial 

11 properties are adversely affected by flooding due 

12 to the rising seas and storm surge. Homeowner's 

13 flood insurance rates facing the loss of 

14 subsidies are skyrocketing due to the point where 

15 it is feared that properties will be abandoned, 

16 resulting in tragic personal losses.

17 It is feared that this will cause a 

18 ripple effect into a recovering mortgage industry 

19 and severely impact Florida's economy and quality 

20 of life for its residence. 

21 But southeast Florida is not alone. 

22 Coastal communities throughout the state, as well 

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1 as the nation, are faced with additional 

2 challenges and have initiated climate change 

3 action plans. More than 20 years ago the Tampa 

4 Bay Regional Planning Council on the west coast 

5 warned about the implications of sea level rise 

6 for Sarasota Bay, and they are now facing future 

7 increased sea level rise.

8 In January, 2010, Broward County joined 

9 Miami Dade, Monroe and Palm Beach Counties to 

10 form the Southeast Regional Climate Change 

11 Compact with the goal of developing strategies, 

12 including greenhouse gas inventories for 

13 accessing regional vulnerability to sea level 

14 rise.

15 The collaboration produced a Southeast 

16 Florida Regional Climate Action Plan, the first 

17 of its kind in a model for other municipalities. 

18 In 2011, the Florida legislature passed 

19 the Community Planning Act, which added an 

20 optional designation of an adaptation action area 

21 within the government's comprehensive plan's 

22 coastal management element. The city of Fort 

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1 Lauderdale and Broward County are each part of a 

2 five-year pilot project initiated to integrate 

3 sea level rise adaptation into the planning 

4 process so governments can upgrade their 

5 infrastructures in the face of even higher rising 

6 sea levels.

7 These challenges posed by sea level rise 

8 are not limited to cities, states or regions. 

9 Our nation and the world in general is being 

10 impacted. According to the U.S. Department of 

11 Defense, climate change will quote, "have serious 

12 implications for the ability of the Department of 

13 Defense to maintain its natural and built 

14 infrastructure and to ensure military readiness."

15 According to the DOD, the effects of 

16 climate change are being experienced now and are 

17 expected to increase in the coming years, even if 

18 aggressive greenhouse gas mitigation efforts are 

19 implemented globally. Scientists have warned 

20 that climate change will cause glaciers to melt, 

21 reaching a much feared tipping point of no 

22 return.

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1 A few months ago NASA reported that six 

2 west Antarctica glaciers collapsed into the sea, 

3 a result, most likely, of warm waters emanating 

4 from the already melting Arctic Ice Cap. Have we 

5 reached our point of no return?

6 Climate change is one of the most urgent 

7 issues facing our nation today. If we are to 

8 preserve the future for our children and 

9 grandchildren, we must act now to reduce carbon 

10 pollution.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

12 today.

13 MR. HERBER: Thank you very much. Thank 

14 you for traveling such a long way. Florida, 

15 Montana, I'm very impressed that you made the 

16 effort to be here with us and I do appreciate it. 

17 Thank you both.

18 MS. KALTMAN: Thank you. 

19 MR. HERBER: Ms. McSwigan. 

20 MS. MCSWIGAN: Yes, hi. My name is 

21 Melissa McSwigan. I live in Pittsburgh and do 

22 you want an address or just Pittsburgh?

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1 MR. HERBER: Pittsburgh is good, thank 

2 you.

3 COURT REPORTER: Could you spell your 

4 last name?

5 MS. MCSWIGAN: Sure. It's 

6 M-c-S-w-i-g-a-n, and I'm here as a concerned 

7 citizen to support the proposed new EPA 

8 standards. I don't think they go far enough but 

9 I know change is hard and we must begin 

10 somewhere.

11 These new standards will improve air 

12 quality and water quality and will begin to 

13 address climate change in the United States at 

14 the national level. If we don't take this good 

15 first step, how many people have to suffer from 

16 asthma and respiratory problems? How much damage 

17 do we have to do to our water quality that 

18 affects food, health and outdoor recreation and 

19 our quality of life?

20 How many natural disasters and extreme 

21 weather conditions do we all have to endure 

22 before we wake up and take action at the 

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1 political level, and at that point it could be 

2 way too late.

3 While it's really great that people are 

4 taking various steps to address climate change, 

5 installing solar panels, reducing their 

6 consumption, biking over driving, that's all 

7 great, but you know, the only real way that we're 

8 going to truly make any difference to address 

9 this mounting problem is really starting with 

10 these regulations through the EPA at the national 

11 level, so thank you.

12 MR. HERBER: Thank you. And let me again 

13 thank all of our speakers for turning out on a 

14 Friday evening, and let me thank the audience for 

15 being very patient, very respectful of all the 

16 speakers, I do appreciate it.

17 Next I'd like to call Brad MacCaulay and 

18 Claire Matway. And if you could start by 

19 spelling your names.

20 MR. MACAULAY: Good evening, my name is 

21 Brad MacCaulay, B-r-a-d, M-a-c-a-u-l-a-y. I am a 

22 resident of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is 

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1 probably one of the most beautiful cities in the 

2 world for actions taken by leaders in the past to 

3 combat extractive industries and pollution. And 

4 I ironically work partially for the extractive 

5 industries. I'm a research analyst for the 

6 metals industry. 

7 But I'm here today to support the EPA's 

8 proposed standard. I think it should be 

9 implemented, and I don't think it should be 

10 watered down, because as I've seen, it doesn't 

11 sound like it's as strict as it could be. That 

12 being said, I think it is a good step in the 

13 right direction.

14 Setting limits on carbon pollution 

15 causing climate change will spur investment and 

16 innovation and clean energy technologies, to 

17 modernize and clean up power plants. New clean 

18 energy technology that produces less carbon 

19 pollution will trade a new generation of clean 

20 energy jobs.

21 Since 1970, every dollar invested in 

22 compliance with clean air act standards has 

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1 yielded four to eight dollars in economic 

2 benefits. 

3 Each time an extreme event hits a 

4 community around the country or even around the 

5 world the economic impact is devastating. From 

6 2011 to 2013 alone, damages from extreme weather 

7 events have exceeded over 200 billion dollars. 

8 While extreme weather events cause communities 

9 millions, inaction of climate change raises the 

10 cost related to healthcare and hurts productivity 

11 through school and work days lost from various 

12 weather than hurricanes, blizzards, flooding, 

13 extreme heat, extreme cold.

14 The good news is that I think we're 

15 already, as Americans, and I think that our 

16 leaders and government are ready to take action. 

17 In February, 2014, Sierra Club polled the United 

18 States and of the poll, seven out of ten 

19 Americans were in favor of putting limits on 

20 carbon pollution of power plants. And even more 

21 interestingly at least half the people already 

22 thought that safeguards existed.

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1 The poll found that 66 percent off people 

2 believe that climate change is a serious problem 

3 and that the government needs to address it. 

4 Further, Americans are willing to put 

5 their money where their mouth is. A poll 

6 conducted by Harvard and Yale found that the 

7 average American is willing to pay at least 162 

8 more dollars a year knowing that they have 

9 cleaner energy.

10 I believe that we have an obligation to 

11 our children, our future generations and everyone 

12 else around the world. Climate isn't just a 

13 problem here in the United States, it affects 

14 everyone. And I think that we need to address 

15 the primary causes, which stem from greenhouse 

16 gases. 

17 The unlimited dumping of carbon pollution 

18 into our air by power plants is a significant 

19 impact, and I believe that the proposed carbon 

20 pollution standard set by the EPA for the EPA's 

21 proposed standard will help to protect everyone 

22 in the United States from health risks and other 

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1 impacts of climate change.

2 I guess I stand here today just to ask 

3 that I hope that we could adopt these standards 

4 without any modification and that we can do it as 

5 soon as possible. Thank you. 

6 MR. HERBER: Thank you, sir. Ms. Matway?

7 MS. MATWAY: Good evening.

8 MR. HERBER: Good evening.

9 MS. MATWAY: My name is Claire Matway. 

10 Do you want me to spell that?

11 COURT REPORTER: Yes, please.

12 MS. MATWAY: C-l-a-i-r-e, M-a-t-w-a-y.

13 I'm going to be a junior at the 

14 University of Pittsburgh. I grew up in 

15 Pittsburgh. My dad grew up in Pittsburgh. My 

16 grandpa and my grandma grew up in Pittsburgh. I 

17 am co-president of Free the Planet, which is a 

18 student environmental action renovation on Pitt's 

19 campus. 

20 So I've been really interested in the 

21 kind of tension between the industrial forces 

22 here and the environmental regulations here, and 

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1 that's always a tension that makes me mad. And 

2 so I want to acknowledge that it's a complex 

3 issue, you know. Everything is a complex issue, 

4 so there's no easy out and there's no perfect 

5 solution. There's no forward movement that comes 

6 without growing pains and a ton of difficult 

7 adjustments, and there's no measure that is 

8 immediately enough to fix stuff.

9 The Clean Power Plan is not an easy out 

10 and it's not a perfect solution, and it's one of 

11 many steps we have to take. So I'm speaking in 

12 support of it. I think that it could be 

13 stronger, but I'm speaking in support of it for 

14 sure.

15 With the Clean Power Plan's 

16 implementation, there will be growing pains in 

17 industry, that's true. There will be shifts and 

18 difficult adjustments, and sometimes communities 

19 are going to have to reinvent themselves, and 

20 that's happening all the time, and I'm an urban 

21 studies major, so I'm all about communities 

22 reinventing themselves, and Pittsburgh has 

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1 totally done that, and I'm really proud of 

2 Pittsburgh's industrial past and ability to 

3 reinvent itself as a city.

4 So basically, I'm talking about the cost 

5 of progress, the necessary cost of progress, and 

6 so in order to make moves we've got to kick up 

7 some dust. Not everybody will immediately 

8 benefit from the regulations proposed by the 

9 Clean Power Plan, but in the long run everyone 

10 will benefit, and hopefully, in the shorter run 

11 there will be more intense -- more radical steps 

12 and regulations to curb emissions and to minimize 

13 the pollutive parts of our lifestyles here.

14 So I'd say that foresight is also one of 

15 the important forces that play here. We have 

16 this built in immediate gratification from 

17 existing infrastructure of non-renewable, 

18 unsustainable pollutive energy systems and we 

19 have to put ourselves on pause and do this work 

20 of regulating and radically reducing emissions, 

21 and reconfiguring our energy systems and our 

22 infrastructure, and shifting our industrial focus 

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1 to green energy. I think we have to work for a 

2 far off sense, the sense of future gratification 

3 that will come from having someday made it 

4 possible for workers and people to be safer and 

5 healthier and for the air and the earth to be 

6 safer and healthier.

7 I think it's always worth repeating that 

8 low income communities and communities of color 

9 are disproportionately affected by pollution from 

10 coal fired power plants and by all kinds of 

11 pollution from all kinds of industry, not just 

12 the energy industry.

13 It's always worth repeating, and 

14 specifically here, the health of workers in the 

15 coal industry is negatively impacted by the 

16 pollute of nature, of the industry, itself. It's 

17 work repeating that carbon emissions are so tied 

18 in with climate change and that climate change is 

19 so scary. And so it's worth emphasizing a lot 

20 that this isn't just about air, but it's about 

21 people, hugely about people, massively about 

22 people.

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1 I'm definitely concerned about the Clean 

2 Power Plan in its implementation, especially. 

3 I'm concerned mostly about accountability. I'm 

4 worried that states won't enter into a system of 

5 accountability strong enough to prevent them from 

6 finding easy outs just to hit the desired 

7 emissions numbers. 

8 Since we've got to overhaul systems, and 

9 infrastructure and everything here, and not just 

10 quibble with the numbers. I'm worried about 

11 accountability and I'm worried about cutting down 

12 on coal causing boosting -- causing a boost in 

13 natural gas drilling, hydraulic fracking and all 

14 of that. So please hold us accountable here.

15 That's what I have to say, please move us 

16 forward here and please hold us all really, 

17 really accountable to really doing this work. 

18 Thank you. 

19 MR. HERBER: Thank you. Thank you both 

20 for being here this evening.

21 Next I'd like to call Franklin County 

22 Commissioner, Paula Brooks. I said I'd call up 

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1 speakers in pairs, but Ms. Brooks, you're going 

2 solo, it looks like.

3 MS. BROOKS: Okay. Well, good evening. 

4 My name is Paula Brooks and I am from Franklin 

5 County Ohio. I always explain that there are 

6 nine Franklin counties across the U.S. I'm from 

7 Columbus.

8 In June the President announced an 

9 historic carbon pollution rule. Friends and

10 family throughout my state of Ohio and the nation 

11 will be affected in both positive and negative 

12 ways. In the long run, I believe the positives 

13 prevail. Here's why.

14 As a child, I grew up in coal country in 

15 Ohio. My ancestors fought in the American 

16 Revolution, then settled in the beautiful 

17 foothills of the Ohio Valley. George Washington 

18 camped right outside of my hometown of East 

19 Liverpool as he surveyed this whole area while 

20 still a British subject.

21 Our family farm had a strip mine, and I 

22 have fond memories of fossil hunting there. But 

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1 I also have not so fond memories of the direct 

2 scars that were left on those strip mines, along 

3 with the high cancer and heart disease rates on 

4 loved ones in my family and neighbors nearby, and 

5 all the way through this upper Ohio and Allegheny 

6 Valley due to -- these folks were lost due to 

7 burning dirty coal.

8 At the time we all knew that so many 

9 livelihoods depended on that coal and the steel 

10 mills and other plants that the coal ran, and we 

11 had to, we thought, accept our fate of ill 

12 health, badly scarred land and lives lost or 

13 maimed, like my grandfather in the underground 

14 coal mines.

15 Now it's time to change all of that and 

16 hasten technology into a clean energy era. As 

17 Ohio's member on the President's bipartisan 

18 climate preparedness and resilience task force, 

19 I've become steeped in what is happening to our 

20 world, our nation and our communities from 

21 climate impacts.

22 For example, since 1958 our region, 

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1 alone, has seen a 37 percent increase in those 

2 hard fast rains called inundations. Those are 

3 overwhelming, our outdated infrastructure 

4 carrying away topsoil and ironically causing 

5 drought because the rain can't be absorbed fast 

6 enough. These will get worse if we do nothing.

7 One of these showers even closed down 

8 I-70 and I-75 in Ohio just about a month ago near 

9 Dayton, four feet of water on I-70 and I-75. And 

10 if you're familiar with Ohio, it's pretty flat 

11 there. Seems almost improbable.

12 The information about these inundations 

13 comes from -- and I'm sure you've read, and thank 

14 you all for your service to our nation -- the 

15 recently -- in May of 2014, released U.S. Climate 

16 Assessment, which was authored over four years by 

17 public and private sector U.S. scientists from 

18 around our nation, and I urge everyone in the 

19 audience, if you haven't read the Climate 

20 Assessment, please do so.

21 Make no mistake, fossil fuels are central 

22 to the carbon pollution problem, especially coal. 

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1 However, it is not just our nation that bears the 

2 burden. Especially must other nations like China 

3 and India be part of the solution or the United 

4 States' action will not be enough to stop the 

5 average five to ten degree Fahrenheit increase in 

6 temperature anticipated in the next decade. This 

7 is also in the U.S. Climate Assessment.

8 Think about what that kind of an increase 

9 will do to Ohio's largest industry, and a large 

10 industry here in Pennsylvania as well, 

11 agriculture. In Cincinnati alone, that average 

12 temperature increased, I heard last week while 

13 meeting with representatives of the community at 

14 the Freedom Center there, that that would equate 

15 to a 102 degree average temperature in July in 

16 Cincinnati, Ohio. Wow.

17 The data show that positives for 

18 agriculture will be like the longer growing 

19 season, which we're already seeing will be offset 

20 by the drought, an increase in pests, both insect 

21 and invasive plants. 

22 Additionally, other research that I heard 

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1 about in Toledo just this week indicates that the 

2 heat stress will actually affect the microbes 

3 that give the great boost to growth to corn and 

4 soybeans, and this will decrease the nutritional 

5 value of our great crops of corn and soybean, 

6 which are great U.S. exports as well as domestic 

7 products.

8 Ohio can play a very important role by 

9 switching to natural gas as a bridge fuel, as is 

10 happening here in Pennsylvania, and then the 

11 deployment of advanced energy, as our legacy of 

12 Thomas Edison which shows we can.

13 We've already seen huge gains for 

14 consumers from energy efficiency, implemented by 

15 our utilities, and indeed, a report by the solar 

16 foundation showed that in 2013 there were 3,800 

17 solar related jobs in Ohio, which exceeded the 

18 number of coal mining jobs in Ohio in 2012 by 

19 about 800 jobs.

20 The United States must act to control our 

21 carbon pollution because it makes it far more 

22 likely that other nations will follow as well. 

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1 Not to be an naive optimist, there must be great 

2 effort through many means to ensure international 

3 action, and I urge all of us to raise our voices 

4 to assure accountability from our government. 

5 Combining U.S. action with the voices of 

6 democracy and other nations, we can make this 

7 happen and save our communities, our nations and 

8 our world for future generations. Thank you very 

9 much. 

10 MR. HERBER: Thank you. And thank you 

11 for helping on the adaptation and preparedness 

12 task force. That's very important to the 

13 Administration. We do appreciate the help you're 

14 providing.

15 MS. BROOKS: You're quite welcome. 

16 MR. HERBER: Thank you.

17 MS. BROOKS: Thank you.

18 MR. HERBER: Next I'd like to call Eva 

19 Resnick-Day. And you are also solo. You're the 

20 only name on the car.

21 MS. RESNICK-DAY: I'm also a solo, okay.

22 MR. HERBER: If you could spell your name 

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1 for the court reporter.

2 MS. RESNICK-DAY: Yeah. E-v-a, Eva, 

3 Resnick-Day is R-e-s-n-i-c-k hyphenated D-a-y.

4 And I am here to express my support for 

5 the proposed carbon rules and thank the EPA for 

6 taking bold and necessary action to combat 

7 climate change that we all know that we are 

8 facing.

9 So I am a local resident here in 

10 Pittsburgh. I have lived here my entire life and 

11 see the Pittsburgh transition from an industrial 

12 town to one that's thriving and a new economy, 

13 and that's been pretty cool to see.

14 And I hear stories from my parents and 

15 grandparents, and I'm sure a lot of people here 

16 might even remember of when they were walking to 

17 school when they were young and they would have 

18 to put on masks because there was so much 

19 pollution in the air. And that's something that 

20 they didn't perceive happening at the time. They 

21 didn't know that all of the carbon that they were 

22 putting in the atmosphere from the industry was 

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1 going to have these effects on their communities.

2 And once we realized that we took action 

3 here in Pittsburgh to transition and for a lot of 

4 other reasons as well. But the point is we were 

5 able to transition when we realized the negative 

6 effects that the pollution was having. And now 

7 we know better. Now we know what carbon 

8 pollution does to our nation. We know that 

9 climate change is coming and we know that it's 

10 here and it's affecting people not only in the 

11 United States with increased weird weather 

12 happening, but also all over the globe in a 

13 really intense way.

14 I know when I was in Guatemala for a 

15 short period of time I met communities that were 

16 now having to move to different areas of the 

17 country and stay in little shacks with their 

18 family across the country because where they used 

19 to live during the year is flooded for half the 

20 year now, something that they never saw before in 

21 decades and decades. So it's affecting people 

22 here in the U.S. and throughout the nation. 

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1 And the thing that really terrifies me, 

2 that we would be remembered as the generation who 

3 knew what we were doing to the planet and to the 

4 way that humans are living and we didn't take 

5 action because it was too difficult.

6 And so these proposed carbon rules are a 

7 big and important step for our future and making 

8 sure that the U.S. is leading the way and 

9 actually taking action to combat global warming, 

10 because if the U.S. doesn't take bold action, 

11 then none of the other nations are going to 

12 follow, because they are not going to think that 

13 what they're doing is going to make a difference 

14 for the whole world.

15 So, you know, limiting carbon pollution 

16 is an important step, believing that carbon will 

17 have an impact but it won't change global 

18 warming, and going forward in the future, it's 

19 happening and we need to adapt. But what it does 

20 do is it sends a strong message that we, as the 

21 United States, actually understand that climate 

22 change is a huge issue and we are willing to take 

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1 those steps in order to protect our future for my

2 generations, and generations and generations 

3 afterwards.

4 So you know, I was out on the streets 

5 yesterday and I saw everyone who feels really, 

6 really, really passionately about this, and I 

7 know that it's not a politically easy fight, but 

8 it's humanly necessary. So I just want to thank 

9 you guys for taking that step and continue to 

10 work hard and protect ourselves for the future. 

11 So thank you.

12 MR. HERBER: Thank you. Thank you for 

13 being here this evening.

14 Do we have any other speakers in the 

15 room? Oh, we have some cards coming. I'd like 

16 to call Daniel Sleigel. Take your time, sir. 

17 MR. SLEIGEL: Hi. 

18 MR. HERBER: If you could spell your 

19 name, Mr. Sleigel?

20 MR. SLEIGEL: Yes, Dan Sleigel is my 

21 name. Native Pittsburgher, 64 years old, and I 

22 used to sell papers on the corner when I was 12 

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1 years old when they were putting this building 

2 up.

3 So as a Vietnam veteran, I've seen a lot 

4 of the world, and I know what a treasure a 

5 planet, a safe haven for humanity we have here. 

6 This little blue marble is all there is for a 

7 gazillion miles, so you know, you know all the 

8 facts and figures, and I've studied some of your 

9 points, and your best system mission reduction 

10 that I'd like to make a comment on, because I 

11 feel the best thing I can do is tell you what I 

12 think of what your system is right now, okay?

13 And point one, you have to make coal 

14 plants more efficient, and I'm greatly in 

15 agreement with that. I think that's very 

16 important, because I believe just the word plain 

17 coal is an oxymoron, okay? I think it's very 

18 important. It's a necessary evil, yeah, for a 

19 lot of years. We need coal, we got to taper it 

20 down, okay? But we need to gradually trade that 

21 in such as like Germany and other European 

22 countries have done, trade in fossil fuel for 

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1 more renewable resources such as solar and wind. 

2 And like I said, in the first part under making 

3 coal plants more efficient, I just have to 

4 mention that I feel the extraction of coal from 

5 the planet with mountaintop removal is causing 

6 massive ecological devastation before the first 

7 match goes to any block of coal from that. 

8 So that's another reason why I feel we 

9 need to reduce that, okay? I do know that 

10 millions of people work in the coal industry and 

11 my heart goes out to them, but they have to 

12 understand that we need to cut back on that. We 

13 all need to find new means of income, and I feel 

14 that the -- I feel that they spend millions of 

15 dollars actually against the renewable resources.

16 The oil and gas industry spends a fortune 

17 downgrading it. So if they would spend that 

18 money towards helping renewable resources, I 

19 think then they would be part of the solution 

20 instead of part of the problem, or instead of 

21 trying to prolong the problem. 

22 And it's just like, you know, your Part B 

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1 of the best system emission reduction, use gas 

2 plants more efficiently, more effectively, yes, 

3 okay. And then we all know the danger of just 

4 the straight gas well where the gusher is gone. 

5 Now we're into the fracking and then that's 

6 releasing enormous amounts of methane into the 

7 atmosphere, which is ever worse, way worse than 

8 CO2. So we need to try to curve this down also, 

9 curve the fossil fuels and bring them up with the 

10 renewable resources, the solar and wind, because 

11 you know, there's no limit to solar and wind for 

12 a long, long time, you know?

13 So it's just the most important point I 

14 want to make, you know, as we, you know, phase 

15 gas and coal out, bring in more wind and solar. 

16 And there's a lot of ways to do that but, you 

17 know, you guys know and it's all about all these 

18 industries working together to do that. 

19 And a fourth part is using energy 

20 efficiently, okay? And actually, conservation is 

21 such an overlooked portion of it, too. And I 

22 feel -- yes, conservation, okay. Gasoline, I 

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1 don't like to say this, but I think we should 

2 raise taxes on gasoline. Ouch, my wallet just 

3 bit me in the hind end when I said that. But 

4 I'll go along with it because --

5 MR. HERBER: Mine bit me, too, sir.

6 MR. SLEIGEL: But I know it's just common 

7 logic. If it's a buck, I'll buy five of them. 

8 If it's five dollars, I'll buy one of them, and I 

9 will find ways to conserve more. I try to now, 

10 but if gas was $10 a gallon, if seven of that was 

11 going towards the renewable resource industry, 

12 I'd gladly pay it. And this is what we have to 

13 realize, you know, this is -- earth is a -- it's 

14 not a practice planet. This is a one shot deal, 

15 it's all we get, and we're well on the way 

16 destroying it, you know, with the -- of course, 

17 you know with Bill McKibben's 350.org group, I 

18 mean, you know, as we get closer to 400 parts per 

19 million, the worse things are going to get with 

20 this greenhouse effect, and it's not up for 

21 debate, it's a fact. So we just need to do 

22 anything we can to bring that back into the realm 

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1 of maybe 300 someday? Dream, wish, you know.

2 So that's pretty much what I have to say, 

3 but just to say in the end, I'd like to say a 

4 conservation, instead of a chicken in every pot 

5 I'd like to see a Prius in every driveway.

6 And then there's a saying that says he 

7 who half breathes, half-lives. Well, if it's a 

8 clean air, it's 50/50, but see, if it's bad air, 

9 if you only half breathe, you're only one-quarter 

10 living. Well, do the math, okay? Clean air is 

11 the most important thing we need, okay, the 

12 environment.

13 And you know, I have a noble respect --

14 as a Vietnam veteran, I get a lot of gratitude 

15 for my service to our country, but I want to tell 

16 you how much gratitude I have for you and thank 

17 you because you are the sculptors of our planet. 

18 What a job. I salute you and I thank you for 

19 everything you do for humanity and earth.

20 MR. HERBER: And I salute you, sir, for 

21 your years of service. Thank you for being here 

22 this evening.

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1 MR. SLEIGEL: You're very welcome.

2 MR. HERBER: Than you.

3 MR. SLEIGEL: Have a good day.

4 MR. HERBER: Do we have any other 

5 speakers in the audience? You're going to go 

6 check?

7 I'm sorry, I don't have a card with your 

8 name --

9 MS. MADAUS: No, that's okay.

10 MR. HERBER: -- so if you could say your 

11 name and spell it for our court reporter, that 

12 would be great.

13 MS. MADAUS: Sure. My name is Monica 

14 Madaus. It's rather an unusual name, it's 

15 M-a-d-a-u-s. I don't know if you want me to 

16 spell, it has a C and not a K.

17 Okay, I am from Zelienople, Pennsylvania, 

18 which is even more of a pain in the neck to 

19 spell. Do you want me to spell that?

20 COURT REPORTER: Sure.

21 MS. MADAUS: Okay, Z-e-l-i-e-n-o-p-l-e, 

22 which is about 40 miles north of here. I want to 

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1 thank you for having an evening session because I 

2 couldn't make the day session, and I'm glad to 

3 hear that it was a little bit better attended, 

4 because I think this is probably one of the most 

5 critically important issues of our time.

6 But I do appreciate the fact that you had 

7 an evening session, because it allows more people 

8 to provide some input.

9 I don't have a lot to say in terms of the 

10 argument, it's in the data. I've heard a lot of 

11 things back and forth. I want to focus on two 

12 particular thoughts I keep thinking and having in 

13 dealing with climate change. 

14 And the first one, one of the better 

15 arguments or one of maybe the better images I had 

16 of this was from an astronomer who was talking 

17 and he said, you know, it's a little more like 

18 Goldilocks, and other people have talked about 

19 the fact that this is a rather unique planet. 

20 It's not too hot and it's not too cold, and it's 

21 just barely either. A little bit one way, a 

22 little bit the other way. We take our luck for 

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1 granted. We happen to luck out on having a good 

2 planet. 

3 And we don't entire, I think, appreciate 

4 the fact that it doesn't have to be that way. 

5 Some other people talked a little bit about 

6 agriculture and there is a book by Mr. Diamond, 

7 or Dr. Diamond, probably, who talks about the 

8 fact that we take the bounty of our agriculture 

9 for granted and we don't really understand the 

10 fact that our wind patterns and our weather 

11 patterns are also not for granted. And that we 

12 can disrupt them, and if we disrupt them, that's 

13 not really going to have a happy outcome.

14 So I think that people have to have that 

15 Goldilocks image in their mind of not too hot and 

16 not too cold when they think about global 

17 warming.

18 Now, I understand that there are a lot of 

19 compelling arguments on the other side, but to 

20 me, whenever I hear those arguments, I have this 

21 image in my mind of walking through the woods and 

22 coming across somebody who is sitting on a branch 

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1 and sawing off the branch that they're sitting 

2 on. And you stop and you say to that person, 

3 what are you doing? And the person says what I 

4 am doing makes perfect economic sense. Right 

5 here, I can show you a spread sheet that tells me 

6 that what I'm doing makes perfect economic sense.

7 And you walk away shaking your head and 

8 saying, you know, the scary part is that person 

9 might be right and they're still wrong. Thank 

10 you. 

11 MR. HERBER: Thank you. And thank you 

12 for coming out on a Friday night.

13 Do we have any other speakers. Okay, 

14 we're going to put it on pause for a couple of 

15 minutes until we get some more speakers.

16 [Recess from 7:19 to 7:39 p.m.]

17 MR. HERBER: Well, welcome back. Thank 

18 you for being patient. We have a couple more 

19 speakers. And is our court reporter ready? 

20 Great. I'd like to call Velessa Souter-Kline and 

21 Peter Stalter. Hello again.

22 MS. SOUTER-KLINE: Getting in under the 

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1 wire. So my name is Valessa Souter-Kline, that's 

2 S-o-u-t-e-r hyphen K-l-i-n-e and I'm actually 

3 here to read on behalf of Carol Oldham.

4 MR. HERBER: And could you spell Carol's 

5 name, please?

6 MS. SOUTER-KLINE: I can. It's 

7 C-a-r-o-l, O-l-d-h-a-m.

8 "My name is Carol Oldham and I live in 

9 Brookline, Massachusetts. and I am submitting 

10 this testimony as a private citizen."

11 She's an environmental organization 

12 person.

13 "I want to state right at the beginning 

14 that I strongly believe that the EPA not only has 

15 the right to regulate carbon pollution from 

16 existing power plants, I believe it has an 

17 obligation."

18 "I grew up spending summers in New 

19 Hampshire at an old family cabin on a lake. I 

20 have spent time every summer of my life there. I 

21 got married there and it is a precious place in 

22 my life."

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1 Carol continues. "What we refer to these 

2 days as my happy place. I can already see

3 impacts from climate change on the lake. Things 

4 like invasive snails, unsafe ice for ice fishing 

5 much of the winter, and lake levels that change 

6 dramatically because of more infrequent but 

7 larger precipitation events."

8 "You ask why the lake level matters. One 

9 of the most iconic and haunting sounds of the New 

10 Hampshire lakes is the call of the common loon. 

11 My entire childhood I remember waking in the 

12 night to hear the loons calling across the lake."

13 "The loons on our lake have only had one 

14 successful nest in the last five years, despite 

15 there being at least two pairs nesting there. 

16 One major reason is that after a big rain lake 

17 levels rise, inundating loon nests which are 

18 right on the edge of the water."

19 "And extreme weather events, like a 

20 massive rain that drive up the level of the lake 

21 for a few days are only going to get worse if we 

22 let climate change get worse."

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1 "That is just one reason out of the many 

2 why we must cut carbon pollution, and we must do 

3 it now."

4 "I know that although I sometimes want to 

5 think only about today, we must balance between 

6 the long term and the short term. I know it is 

7 hard to do something now for a path later, like 

8 continuing the way make and use energy now, 

9 because it would make our children's and our 

10 grandchildren's lives better."

11 "When I think about weather, I would want 

12 a life with air and water pollution, drought and 

13 wildfires, heat waves and extreme stores, and not 

14 being able to hear loons at night, that is not a 

15 life I would choose if I had a chance to choose."

16 "The illusion is thinking that we don't 

17 have a chance to choose. We do. I choose to 

18 support the Environmental Protection Agency's 

19 choice to make our lives better by regulating 

20 carbon pollution, and to help us all to a better 

21 way of life."

22 "I know we can do this and create good 

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1 jobs here at home while we improve our health and 

2 improve our lives and make things better for 

3 wildlife."

4 "I know communities can get work force 

5 training to transition from a current way of 

6 making energy to a cleaner, safer world and 

7 better paying jobs. That is why I support the 

8 Environmental Protection Agency's developing and 

9 implementing the strongest possible carbon 

10 pollution standards for existing power plants. 

11 Thank you."

12 MR. HERBER: Thank you. And thanks to 

13 Ms. Oldham. Mr. Stalter?

14 MR. STALTER: Hello. My name is Peter 

15 Stalter, S-t-a-l-t-e-r. And I'm reading on 

16 behalf of Brian Henderson, H-e-n-d-e-r-s-o-n.

17 "My name is Brian Henderson and I am a 

18 manager of Residential Energy Services for 

19 Envinity, Incorporated. Infinity is a 

20 Pennsylvania based company devoted to helping our 

21 customers make their homes and businesses more 

22 energy efficient."

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1 "We also help our clients transition into 

2 using clean renewable energy where the 

3 opportunities exist."

4 "As a need for our energy conservation 

5 and renewable energy generation goes in the 

6 United States, so too does our company. Envinity 

7 opened its doors in 2005 with three employees. 

8 Now, nine years later, we are doing over 2.5 

9 million dollars in business per year. This 

10 industry is ready and Envinity is here to lead 

11 the way into the clean energy future."

12 "We would love to continue to grow our 

13 company. All we need is the opportunity. Your 

14 proposed rule that helps begin the process of 

15 transitioning to cleaner renewable energy gives 

16 us that opportunity."

17 "The changes in your proposed rule would 

18 bring about or only help our company, and our 

19 industry as a whole. We understand that 

20 challenge is difficult, and we understand that 

21 other industries will not see the same 

22 stimulation that ours will, but we assure you 

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1 that our industry is strong, intelligent and 

2 ready."

3 "It is imperative that the EPA makes the 

4 new rule to cut carbon pollution from existing 

5 power plants as strong as possible so that we can 

6 begin the transition to a clean energy economy."

7 "There is urgency with this, as we are 

8 already seeing changes to our air, land and 

9 water. The proposed EPA rule is the best thing 

10 we can do to help us get further away from our 

11 dependency on fossil fuels."

12 "I would like to thank you for the 

13 opportunity to speak on this issue. We feel it 

14 is of the utmost importance to our company, our 

15 community and our country."

16 "The lasting positive impacts of the 

17 proposed rule far outweigh the transitional 

18 difficulties of moving toward a clean energy 

19 future. Therefore, we give your proposed rule to 

20 reduce carbon pollution from existing power 

21 plants our strongest support."

22 MR. HERBER: Thank you, Mr. Stalter. 

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1 Could you spell Mr. Henderson's company's name, 

2 please?

3 MR. STALTER: Envinity, E-n-v-i-n-i-t-y, 

4 Incorporated.

5 MR. HERBER: Thank you and thanks to Mr. 

6 Henderson.

7 MR. STALTER: Thank you. 

8 MR. HERBER: Thank you both for being 

9 here. I will use the prerogative of the Chair to 

10 call Mr. Daniel Sleigel again. We have no other 

11 speakers and Mr. Sleigel has a repeat performance 

12 for us.

13 MR. SLEIGEL: Hello again.

14 MR. HERBER: Welcome back, sir.

15 MR. SLEIGEL: How you doing, how's it 

16 going?

17 MR. HERBER: We're so good, how about 

18 yourself?

19 MR. SLEIGEL: Oh, very wonderful. Very 

20 blessed and thankful to be here. And --

21 MR. HERBER: Well, we're lucky to have 

22 you sir.

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1 MR. SLEIGEL: This is a wonderful song I 

2 discovered inadvertently on the internet called 

3 Song for the Climate. It's called Song for the 

4 Climate. You can find it on 

5 SongForTheClimate.org, or YouTube Song for the 

6 Climate, okay?

7 MR. HERBER: Is this your song, sir, or 

8 one you --

9 MR. SLEIGEL: No, I didn't write this.

10 MR. HERBER: It's not one you wrote, 

11 okay.

12 MR. SLEIGEL: I'm just repeating and 

13 performing it. I heard it on the internet and 

14 I've seen it sung by thousands of people all over 

15 the planet, you know, every continent, ever 

16 nation, every language, so I think I would like 

17 to present it to you as a gift, because I think 

18 it's part of the glue that holds humanity 

19 together that we all think like this, those of us 

20 that care about life.

21 And these are the words and a first 

22 verse, actually. And feel free to sing along. 

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1 You'll catch the drift if you're real fast. 

2 MR. HERBER: Sir, we'll limit it to your 

3 signing this evening.

4 MR. SLEIGEL: You've heard it?

5 MR. HERBER: We'll limit it to your 

6 singing this evening and we'll --

7 MR. SLEIGEL: Don't hold back, if you 

8 feel like it sing along.

9 MR. HERBER: (Singing) We need to wake 

10 up. We need to wise up. We need to open up our 

11 eyes and do it now, now, now. We need to build a 

12 better future and we need to do it now.

13 We're on a planet that has a problem. 

14 We've got to solve it, get involved and do it 

15 now, now, now. We need to build a better future 

16 and we need to start right now.

17 SongfortheClimate.org. I'm just Dan 

18 Sleigel kind of passing the song on but you can 

19 catch it on the internet by a million other 

20 people.

21 Thank you very much. 

22 MR. HERBER: Thank you, sir. Appreciate 

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1 you coming back.

2 (Applause.)

3 MR. SLEIGEL: I salute once again to your 

4 noble profession, what you do for our planet and 

5 humanity.

6 MR. HERBER: Thank you, sir, we're your 

7 government and we're happy to be here.

8 MR. SLEIGEL: Thank you. 

9 MR. HERBER: Do we have any other 

10 speakers in the audience this evening?

11 Okay, we're going to hold out here until 

12 8:00 p.m. in case any other late attendees 

13 arrive. For all of you who have been here this 

14 evening, thank you so much for taking time out of 

15 your Friday evening to be with us. Mr. Hoem, 

16 especially, for traveling so far. Thank you very 

17 much for making the trip, sir.

18 [Recess from 7:48 to 8:00 p.m.]

19 MR. HERBER: The time is 8:00 p.m. and I 

20 would like to close the evening session for the 

21 day. So I thank everybody for being here. I 

22 thank the court reporter. You all have a good 

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1 evening and have a safe trip home. Thank you 

2 all.

3 [Public Hearing concluded at 8:00 p.m.]

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