US Army Corps

of Engineers

Office of theChief

of Engineers
MAJOR GENEPAL WILLIAM E . POTTER, USA, RETIRED

This manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded

interview conducted by Dr . Martin Reuss of the Historical

Division, Office of the Chief of Engineers, 0ith Major

General William E . Potter, USA, Retired, in Orlando,

Florida, in February 1981 .

FOR THE COMMANDER :

Major General William E. Potter had a distinguished

career, first as an Engineer officer and then, in private

life, as a manager in two major construction projects --

the 1965 World's Fair and Disney World . I recommend this

interview to thoughtful officers and civilian members of

the Engineer family .

THE INTERVIEWER

Dr . Martin Reuss is a historian in the Historical

Division, Office of the Chief of Engineers, specializing

in twentieth-century water resources development . He

holds a Ph .D . from Duke University and is the author of

Shaping Environmental Awareness : The United States Army

Corps of Engineers Environmental Advi s ory Board,

1970-1980 .
WILLIAM E . POTTER

William E . Potter's career exemplifies how management and

engineering skills learned in the Army Corps of Engineers

provide the basis for professional success in both

military and civilian life . Indeed, Potter's career is

not one, but several . His military career began as a

young cadet at West Point, from where he graduated in

1928 . After an assignment on the Nicaragua survey team,

he furthered his education by earning a Bachelor of

Science degree in civil engineering at the Massachusetts

Institute of Technology . The first assignment in which

he had genuine management responsibilities was in the

Pittsburgh Engineer District, where he was assigned in

1933 . Beginning in the mud and water around Montgomery

Dam on the Ohio River, then as a project engineer

supervising the construction of Tygart Dam in West

Virginia, he learned first-hand how to manage people and

material in order to insure the successful completion of

a major project .

During World War II, Potter served in a number of

responsible administrative posts . He was battalion

Operations Branch, G-4 Section .

After the war, Potter first became Kansas City District

Engineer and then the Alaska District Engineer . In 1949,

he was assigned to the office of the Chief of Engineers

and for the next two years was in overall charge of the

Corps' civil works activities . In July 1952, Potter

became Division Engineer of the Missouri River Division .

He was in charge of implementing the Corps' military and

civil works activities throughout the Missouri basin .

One part of his responsibilities involved supervising the

construction of several dams on the Missouri as provided

for in the Pick-Sloan plan, the basic planning document

for water resources development in the Missouri River

watershed .

Perhaps the most memorable period of General Potter's

career began in June 1956, when he was appointed Governor

of the Panama Canal Zone . For four yeas, Potter oversaw

the administration of the Zone as well as the maintenance

and operation of the Canal itself . In previous

positions, he had developed the ability to work well with

both politicians and the general public . This ability

was put to the test in the Canal Zone . He was governor

commander of the 25th Armored Engineer Battalion and

Engineer of the Sixth Armored Division . In Europe, he

served in a number of important positions in

Headquarters, U .S . Army, including Chief of the Plans and
at a time when Panamanians were agitating for increased

control of the Canal, and Potter found himself front-page

news in both Panama and the United States .

Major General Potter retired from the Army in 1960 . At

this time he started another career . From 1960 to 1965,

he was executive vice-president of the New York World's

Fair, working closely with Robert Moses in developing and

overseeing fair operations . In 1965, he continued his

association with enterprises that both educate and

entertain when he joined Walt Disney Productions,

eventually becoming senior vice-president of Walt Disney

World Company . In that capacity, he was instrumental in

establishing Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida . In

1973, Potter retired again, although as a private

consultant he continued to be actively involved in

engineering projects around the world . Potter's

multi-faceted career illustrates in microcosm the way in

which the skills of the military and civilian engineer

overlap .
CAREER SUMMARY

September 1928 - September 1929

Company Officer, First Engineers, Fort DuPont, DE

September 1929 - August 1931

Company Officer, Assistant Supply Officer, and Personnel

Officer, Nicaragua

August 1931 - April 1932

Officer in Charge (Hydrological Studies), Nicaragua Canal

Survey, Nicaragua

June 1932 - June 1933

Student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Boston,

July 1933 - .August 1934

Chief Concrete Technician, Montgomery Dam, United States

Engineer Office, Pittsburgh, PA

August 1934 - March 1936

Officer in Charge, Tygart Dam construction, United States

Engineer Office, Pittsburgh, PA

March 1936 - July 1936

Officer in Charge, Emsworth Dam construction, United

States Engineer Office, Pittsburgh, PA

August 1936 - July 1937

Student Officer, Company Officer's Course, Engineer

School, Fort Belvoir, VA

August 1937 - September 1940

Assistant Professor of Military Science and Tactics, Ohio

State University, Columbus, OH

September 1940 - April 1941

Supply officer, 16th Engineer Battalion, Armored

April 1941 - June 1941

Executive officer, 24th Engineer Battalion, Armored

July 1941 - September 1941

Student Officer, G-3 Course, Command and General Staff

College, Fort Leavenworth, KA

October 1941 - April 1942

Executive officer,

23d Engineer Battalion, Armored

April 1942 - March 1943

Commanding officer, 25th Engineer Battalion, Armored

vi.i
March'1943 - September 1943

Commanding Officer, 1138th Engineer Combat Group

November 1943 - December 1943

Assistant G-3, European Theater of Operations ;

Mobilization, Chief of Troops Section, Headquarters,

European Theater of Operations

December 1943 - January 1944

Executive Officer, Psychological Warfare Division,

European Theater of operations and 12th Army Group

February 1944 - July 1945

Assistant G-4, Chief, Planning Branch, Headquarters,

European Theater of Operations

July 1945 - April 1948

District Engineer, Kansas City Engineer District, Kansas

City, MO

April 1948 - April 1949

District Engineer, Alaska Engineer District, Anchorage, AK

April 1949 - February 1951

Acting Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil Works,

Office, Chief of Engineers, Washington, DC

February 1951 - August 1951

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Special Projects, Office,

Chief of Engineers, Washington, DC

August 1951 - June 1952

Student Officer, National War College, Washington, DC

June 1952 - July-1952

Deputy Commandant for Education, Industrial College of the

Armed Forces

July 1952 - May 1956

Division Engineer, Missouri River Engineer Division,

Omaha, NE

June 1956 - July 1960

Governor of the Canal Zone and President, Panama Canal

Company, Balboa Heights, Canal Zone

30 July 1960

Retirement from the United States Army

1960 - 1965

Executive Vice President, New York World's Fair

viii
1965 - 1973

Vice President, Walt Disney Productions, and Senior Vice

President, Walt Disney World, Co .

1973 -

Private Consultant, Fowler Potter Associates

Date and Place of Birth

17 July 1905, Oshkosh, WI

Parents

William Bradford Potter and Arlie Johnson Potter

Marriage

Ruth T . Potter, Grafton, WV, 21 July 1936

Children

Two daughters,

Grandchildren

Mark Potter

EDUCATION

Jo Ann and Susan Ruth

Hipp, Kent Lee

Edwin Gunner Schull, Susan

Amanda Arleigh Schull

Hipp, Stephen Warder Hipp,

Elizabeth (Kendall) Schull, and

Toledo University, Toledo, OH (1923, one year)

United States Military Academy, West Point, NY (BS, 1928)

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Boston, MA (BSCE, 1933)

Company Officer's Course, The Engineer School, Fort Belvoir, VA

(1937)

Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, KA, Fourth

Course, G-3 (1941)

National War College, Washington, DC, Regular Course (1952)

Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, KA,

Orientation on Tactical Employment of Atomic Weapons (1954)

PROMOTION HISTORY

Grade Temporary Permanent

Second Lieutenant 9 June 1928

First Lieutenant 1 January 1934

Captain 9 June 1938

Major 31 January 1941 9 June 1945

Lieutenant Colonel 1 February 1942 1 July 1948

Colonel 17 May 1943 15 August 1951

Brigadier General 29 April 1952 11 April 1957

Major General 18 May 1956 1 August 1957

PERSONAL DATA
CITATIONS AND DECORATIONS

Legion of Merit

Bronze Star Medal (Meritorious Service)

Croix de Guerre with Palm (France)

Distinguished Service Medal (1960)

AWARDS

European-African-Middle East Campaign Medal

American Defense Service Medal

American Campaign Medal

World War II Victory Medal

Second Nicaraguan Campaign Medal

National Defense Service Medal

Overseas Bars (3)

PPOFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

American Society of Civil Engineers

Society of American Military Engineers

Military Order of World Wars

Rotary

COMMISSIONS, COMMITTEES, AND DIRECTORSHIPS

Member, Florida Council of 100

Member, Board of Governors, Orlando Regional Medical Center,

1968 - 1982

Member, Board of Greater Orlando Aviation Authority (appointed

by the Governor of Florida), 1980 -

Former Director, Carlisle Corporation ; Florida Gas Company ;

Trust Company of Florida ; Bank of Perrine ; Central Florida

Kidney Foundation ; and other civic organizations
GUIDE TO CON=S

Early Life and West Point Years . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1-5

Nicaragua . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5-8

Pittsburgh Engineer District . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9-14

Engineer School, ROTC Instructor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14-16

Army Assignments in the United States, 1940-1943 . . . . . . . 16-19

Army Assignments in Europe, 1943-1945 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19-42

Kansas City District Engineer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43-47

Alaska District Engineer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47-54

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil Works . . . . . . . . . 54-69, 71-74

National War College . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58, 69-71

Industrial College of the Armed Forces . . . . . . . . . . . . 74

Missouri River Division Engineer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74-122

Governor, Panama Canal Zone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 122-124

Executive Vice President, Now York World's Fair . . . . . . . . 174-187

Senior Vice President, Walt Disney World Company . . . . . . . 187-198

Private Consultant, Closing Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . . 198-206
4: General Potter, the first thing I'd like to discuss

with you is your family background : your parents,

what your father did, your mother, where you were

born, and so forth . Why don't we start off talking

about your parents? What was your father's

background?

A : Well, the family history, I think, is pretty

interesting . I had a great-grandfather who spent a

lot of money preparing a very thick and large book

called, The Potters in America . He started out

with discovering seven Potters who'd come from

England over here, oh, way back when, about just

after the Mayflower . My particular branch stems

from a fellow named George, who was born in England

and had a son, Abel, and Abel was married in 1669,

and he died in 1692 . And, of course, the family

seems to have been fairly prolific, but it all

ended up with my father having been born in

Chelsea, Massachusetts . My grandfather, at some

time or other, had moved west with his six or seven

children . They came west to Oshkosh, Wisconsin,

and some time later, my grandfather and, I guess,

most of the children, except about three, moved

back to Chelsea, as a matter of fact to Everett,

Massachusetts .

My father was William Bradford, who was born on

October 26, 1873, and died in 1937 . He and my

mother were married in 1904 . Her name was Arlie

Bell Johnson . She was the adopted child of a Civil

War veteran, who lived in an Old Soldiers' Home up

in Menasha, Wisconsin . My father had several

jobs . He was not well up in the financial

hierarchy by any means . In fact we had a very

touchy life . I remember at some time in my early

age when he came home all full of joy, and his pay

had been increased to $1 .00 a day!

But, he did work for the government during World

War I, and as a result of that, we left Oshkosh,

moved to Beloit, Wisconsin, for about a year,

year-and-a-half, and then to Toledo, Ohio . And,

that was just about the time I was starting in high

school . I was born July 17, 1905 . I had two

brothers, one of whom is still alive . And in
Q : Were you eager to go to West Point?

A : Oh, yes . I'd always wanted--like so many kids, we read those books My First Year at West Point , Mfr

Second Year at West Point . I forget the author,

but it was a series of books, first, second, third,

and fourth year at West Point . I became attracted

to it, and went to West Point, and had a pretty

good record there . During my senior year, my

first-class year, I was made a cadet captain and

put in charge of a plebe company--new recruits

coming in--and one of the new plebes decided he

didn't like life at West Point . And as was the

custom in those days each fellow who resigned had

to sign a piece of paper saying, "I was or was not

hazed ." He put down that he was hazed, and there

was quite an investigation . As a result five of us

were suspended from the military academy for a

year . I came back in 1927, as a buck private, by

the way, and graduated in 1928 and was able to get

in the Corps of Engineers .

Q : Let me ask you a few questions about the West Point

experience . Did you enjoy the academy?

A : Oh, intensely . Intensely . Even then it was a

great education . But of course it was in those

days aimed at producing officers for the military .

As I understand it that's been--the main purpose is

still to produce officers for the military--but the

education is much broader . Our education aimed a

great deal at military practices in that era plus a

great deal of engineering .

Q : What about the discipline at West Point? I guess

all the cadets when they first came into West Point

had to endure something called "Beast Barracks ."

Do you recollect anything about that?

Toledo, Ohio, I went to one of the two high schools that then existed in the city by the name of Scott High School . Went there for four years, graduated

in 1922 and went to the University of Toledo, which

was just then starting, for one year during which

time my mother, who was a very active woman--I

mean, she wasn't a sit-down housewife--proceeded to

get me an appointment to West Point, where I

entered in 1923, July first . First time I'd ever

been away from home .
A : Oh, yes . Hazing was a way of life . It was

expected . You endured it . I think it was good for

you! We had an old thing called running the

stairs . Each area of the barracks was four stories

high, and when you blinked your eye wrong, why, you

were told to run ten tours of the stairs and for

awhile at least I held the cadet record for time in

running the stairs . Guess that's the only thing

that's in my West Point bio, really .

Q : Do you recall anything about a cadet by the name of

Jack Herbert?

A : Jack Herbert was a very dear friend of mine, yes .

He, after I was suspended, and later on, told me

that when he was questioned about whether he was

hazed or not, he indicated that he tried to

obfuscate the answer .

Q : Wasn't there a story about Herbert's "gut and

butt?" That he seemed to be protruding a bit both

ways?

A : Well, he was not a skinny guy .

Q : And, did you haze him a bit about that?

A : We tried to correct his posture .

Q : What West Point classmates did you maintain

contacts with during the rest of your life? Were

there any particular ones that you remained close

to?

A : Well, unfortunately, of course, I was fairly close,

or very close, to my own class, and they gave me

permission to wear the 1927 class ring, which I've

always done . But, coming back to a class that I'd

assisted in hazing, it was a bit of a different way

of life . So I do have dear friends of both

classes, but not extensively .

Q : Could you give me a few of the names?

A : Luke Finley and I have seen each other several

times, mostly due to the kind of life I had in the

military and afterwards, and not having served a

great deal with troops, keeping up these

relationships has just not fitted in . But some of
them are very dear, though as I told you before,

Mrs . Potter and I are not what you would call

visiting people, and most of my friends since the

war have been made in civilian life .

Q : I see . Let me ask you a couple of questions which

I'm sort of curious about . Well, one at least :

your name is William E . Potter, but you evidently

rather early took the name Joe, and I'm wondering

why .

A : Well, the day I reported into the military academy

I was assigned to the 7th Division of barracks, in

the old barracks, and each two divisions had a

janitor, who was in charge of taking care of the

halls . My division of barracks had a rotund, big,

mustachioed Yankee, pudgy fellow by the name of Joe

Potter, and the first day I was there the

first-class men said, "From now on your name is Joe

Potter ." And, as a result I'd say that most people

don't know I have another name, and they'll come to

town, like you may have, not knowing my real name,

and look in the phone book for Joe Potter, and you

would not have found me! It's almost as good as a

restricted number .

Q : [laughter] To jump ahead just for a moment, I want

to get a couple of personal details out of the

way . Could you tell us when you were married, how

many children you have, and what their names are?

A : I was married in 1936, and I have two children, two

daughters . JoAnn lives here with three of my

grandchildren--Mark, Kent, and Stephen . The last

two were born in Kenya . Susan lives in Honolulu,

Hawaii, with three of my grandchildren--Gunner,

Kendall, and Amanda . Neither of the husbands were

in the military .

Q : And what's the name of your wife?

A : My wife's name is Ruth, or Ruthie, Ruthie T ., and

her name was Turner when I married her in Grafton,

West Virginia .

Q : Let's go back then to after you got out of West

Point, date of graduation, 9 June 1928 . You were

assigned as a second lieutenant at Fort DuPont,

Delaware . What were your responsibilities at Fort

DuPont?
A : Well, I guess first, to be disciplined in not being

a first-class cadet, but becoming a very low second

lieutenant, even of Engineers, which of course was

the prideful place to be in those days, was a major

change . I was assigned to one of the companies of

the lst Engineers, part of which was up at

Monmouth, New Jersey . I think three companies,

including the headquarters, were at Fort DuPont,

and my first commander was a Captain Matthews . I

stayed there just about a year doing normal company

duties, you know, drilling and rifle range . We

used to spend months on the rifle range in those

days . Now they spend days or weeks on the rifle

range . But, military training in those days was,

as against today, quite simple because the

equipment that the Army had in those days, the

fighting equipment, consisted of a rifle, a machine

gun, and a BAR, and maybe a 37 mm gun . I mean

that's about all you had to worry about, and

everybody knew how to take a machine gun apart and

their rifle apart, an old Springfield, and it was

much simpler than it is today with all the highly

technical equipment that any organization has, even

a company . It was long before the days of compu-

. .ters and advanced technology .

Q : What sort of work were the Engineers doing at Fort

DuPont?

A : Just training . I reported there, I think, in

September, and the next year we went up to Fort Dix

to prepare some of the old mobilization barracks

for National Guard occupancy later in the year .

Q :

A : That was just about it . Learning how to administer

a company, inventorying the post exchange, which

you did every month in detail, keeping the company

books, and drilling ad infinitum and things like

that .

Q : I see . So then in September 1929, you went to

Nicaragua?

I see . So then you were at Fort Dix for awhile,

and do you have any particular memories of this

period? Was it just mainly a training period for

you, learning the ropes as a young second

lieutenant?
A : That's right .

Q : Now, the reason why you were in Nicaragua,

evidently, was to help in plotting a new sea level

canal?

A : No . Ever since the--not ever since--but some years

after the Panama Canal was finished, the governors

of the Canal. Zone and others became concerned about

its future capacity . And planning way, way ahead,

various surveys were made, and studies were made,

as to what to do if the Panama Canal ever got to

the point, or when it got to the point, that it

couldn't take care of ocean traffic . So an act of

Congress set up a study to examine the capacity of

the Panama Canal, but also since we had a treaty in

perpetuity with Nicaragua, saying that we wanted to

retain the right to build a canal in Nicaragua, one

of the parts of the study was to study again a

Nicaraguan canal . It'd been studied, and even a

little work had been done on it by a fellow by the

name of Menocal, and as a matter of fact, there

were several of the old French dredges sunk in the

old harbor at Graytown, which had since then sanded

up, so that it was no longer a commercial harbor .

But we spent about a year-and-a-half on the

survey . Let's see, there was a battalion of

Engineers--three companies and a headquarters

company, and we surveyed, physically surveyed, the

route that Menocal had laid out to see if there

were any changes, made lots of drillings to see

whether the foundations of the locks were adequate,

ran a cost estimate, did all the topography of it,

and after a couple of years of that work, the

battalion returned to the United States . But I was

left there for about a year to supervise the

collection of hydrologic data . We had rain gauges

and evaporation pans, about a dozen of them in

parts of Nicaragua, especially down the Rio Grande

River, and once a month I would leave Granada and

go down the river and collect the data . We paid

people down there five dollars to collect the data

and read the rain and all that .

Q : Was this canal that you were planning, was it to be

a canal that had locks in it?

A : Yes . The idea of a sea-level canal, which had died

under President Teddy Roosevelt after a series of
intensive studies, never really arose again until

much later, when it was decided as a result of our

joint studies that the Panama Canal was the place

to expand when, as, and if .

Q : I see . Do you have any particular impressions of

your stay in Nicaragua?

A : Well, you've got to put yourself in the position of

being almost a brand new second lieutenant in the

Army and living in Granada, which was the seat of

the Conservative party of the government of

Nicaragua . The other party, which ran the country,

was in Managua . And, it was, I thought, a

wonderful life . I enjoyed every minute of it . I

did all sorts of things . Once a week I ran the

supply boats from San Carlos down to Graytown with

supplies for the Company in that sector . I did the

surveying in the Brito area . My commanding officer

in that effort was a first lieutenant by the name

of Leslie R . Groves, who was a hard taskmaster .

And, my dear friend at that time until he died

shortly after World War II was Timothy Mulligan,

who married a very, very fine Nicaraguan lady by

the name of Julia Bernard . They had children, at

Q :

Q :

A :

You must have gotten to know Lieutenant Colonel Dan

I . Sultan .

A : Dan I . Sultan was the

The next officer under

Charlie Gross, who was

Those two were the

battalion .

What was your impression of Sultan?

commander of the battalion .

him, second in command, was

a very interesting officer .

two top officers of the

Very fine, good administrator . Knew what he

doing . 'Course, he got to be, what, a three-star

general during the war? Very fond of him, and he

and his wife did enough socially so that the

organization stayed together . The organization

lived in an old monastery in the city of Granada .

The chief medical officer was Paul Hawley, who

later became Surgeon General and head of the

American College of Surgeons and also was Chief

was

least one of whom went to the U .S . Military

Academy, and subsequently he resigned from the Army

and went down to Nicaragua where he lives with his

mother and another brother .
Surgeon of Communications Zone in Europe during the

war . Also a darned fine officer . We had darned

good people down there . Ken Nichols was in the

battalion . That's the only one I remember

outstandingly .

Q : Did you get to know any of the important Nicaraguan

figures, like General Jose Moncada? Or Portillo?

A : I met Moncada . General, Colonel Sultan, in those

days, used to have those people in for dinner . Our

activity down there was very important to the

government of Nicaragua, so I met Moncada, who was

then, I think, president . And, I also met a

colonel by the name of Somoza, who later on in my

career came to the Canal Zone, after he'd

been--people attempted to assassinate him in

Nicaragua, and President Eisenhower offered the

family the opportunity of coming to Gorgas

Hospital . And, he came there, and died there .

Q : Did you have any particular impression of these

gentlemen, Moncada or [Anastasio] Somoza?

A : They were way up and I was way down .

Q : Did you ever get to know the opposition, that is,

[Augusto] Sandino, the guerilla leader?

A : No, no . We were always aware he was there, though,

and I was very close, of course, to the Marines who

were then in occupancy, really an occupancy, in

Nicaragua .

Q : Did you, the Engineers, have good relations with

the Marines?

A : Oh, yes . Yes . They were our source of supply in

Managua .

Q : According to my records, after Nicaragua, you went

to MIT and received a BS in civil engineering a

year later . Why MIT? There are a lot of officers

who went to MIT to pick up an advanced degree in

usually some branch of engineering . I'm curious

about the relationship between the Army and MIT .

Do you know anything about that?

A : Well, in those days it was the practice to send
engineering graduates to a civilian school for one

9

year to round out their education . I think those

schools were MIT, Cornell, University of Iowa, and

maybe Berkeley, I'm not sure . But since MIT was

top of the heap that's where I wanted to go, and

that's where I was able to go . There were two of

us there . Charlie Keller was the other one . He

eventually, when we left the Army after World War

II, started his own construction firm in New

Orleans and was very successful and eventually

became head of AGC, the contractors' organization

in the United States .

Q : The Association of General Contractors?

A : Yes . AGC .

Q : Did most engineer officers get degrees in civil

engineering?

A : No . Some of them in other branches--in Iowa you

always took up hydraulics and soils mechanics--

hydraulics, mostly .

Q : I see . Why did you decide to take civil

engineering, then?

A : Well, mostly because I wanted to go to MIT .

Q : [laughter] Okay .

A : Which is a tougher school, academically, than West

Point .

Q : Yes . So, then, in 1933 you graduated from MIT, and

you were assigned to Pittsburgh?

A : Engineer District, yes .

Q : What were your responsibilities at Pittsburgh, and

do you recall what branch of the office you were

involved with?

A : The District Engineer was Colonel [Wilhelm D .]

Styer, then Major Styer, whose family history is

very interesting . He had brothers who became

admirals in the Navy, as he became general in the

Army . The idea in those days, when a new officer

came to the District, you didn't stay in the
A : Yes .

District office, doing administration and all

that . You went out and got your feet dirty . And I

was assigned as an engineer officer under a

civilian by the name of Don Keeler, who was in

charge of the building at Montgomery Locks down at

Beaver, Pennsylvania, and I stayed down there quite

a long time . I became involved in standing under a

steam hammer driving piles, and working in a form,

inspecting the placement of concrete, all the dirty

foot stuff, so that we would learn what

construction really was . One winter I even spent

on one of the dams on the Ohio River, lifting

gates . We had those wooden gates that you lifted

in sections . I forget the name of them now, but it

was an across-the-board, intense training in what

was construction . Subsequent to that we were

starting the Tygart Dam, and I was made engineer

officer in charge of the construction of Tygart

Dam, where I stayed for about two years . Charlie

Wagner was the chief of construction under me . I

had a laboratory and a little organization there,

supervising the Frederick Snare Corporation, which

had the bid for, I think, t6 million to build that

dam . Goodness knows what it'd cost today . But, it

was the first concrete dam the Corps built east of

the Mississippi, and I stayed there until

Lieutenant Fowlkes, Benny Fowlkes, relieved me, and

I was sent to Emsworth Dam, a navigation dam at

Emsworth, Pennsylvania, which was starting out just

like the one at Montgomery . I was in charge of

construction of that until I left the District in

1936 .

Q : By that time you had been promoted to first

lieutenant .

the '36 flood . I was called from, I think I was at

Emsworth at the time, and we became a flood team,

the whole District did, and all of our efforts were

1 0

Q : On January 1, '34, according

get involved in the '36 or '37

to

floods?

records . Did you

A : Yes, sir .

Q : Have you any recollection of your experience with

those floods?

A : Especially the '36 flood . Not the '37 flood, but
Q : Let me turn our attention to the '37 flood .

A : I'd been married and sent to Fort Belvoir to go

through the Engineer school, and school started, I

think, in September . That flood I believe was

either January or February, and the whole group of

officers were sent down to the middle Ohio . I was

sent to Cincinnati and spent a lot of my time in

Louisville going up and down the river, again,

rescuing people, pigs, and chickens and making

ready for a visit by Mr . [Harry] Hopkins, who was

coming down to see the flood . He got as far as

Cairo but not to my area . We did stand on the

floodwalls at Cairo and again witnessed the power

of water .

Q : Let's go back for a moment to when you were a

resident engineer at Tygart Dam . Do you recall any

particular problems with the Frederick Snare

Corporation?

A : Well, you see, this company had bid the whole job,

and there was a lot of engineering data available .

We had drilled the site out ; there were corings ;

and the makeup of the foundation, which was largely

sandstone and shale in lenses, was known . A dam

must be founded on very substantial material, and

frequently during the course of the construction it

was necessary to excavate more of the rock than the

original plans called for in order to assure that

the foundation was correct . And this, sometimes,

caused dissension and arguments, and, of course, I

was responsible for saying take it out or leave

it . And there were arguments and claims were made,

which were settled long after I left the job or the

District .

Q : At Tygart you had to work with some fairly

interesting people, and I wonder whether you

devoted to trying to secure our projects, but also

to assist civilians and to evacuate pigs and

chickens and all that sort of thing . I spent two

or three nights on Neville Island watching it get

washed away by this horrendous flood . It was a

great experience to see 15-, 20-ton pieces of ice

bob up in the air 15 or 20 feet as they got crushed

against things ; made you appreciate the power of

water . I surely became a devotee of flood control .
1 2

recollect them . How about Ben Fowlkes?

A : Benny Fowlkes succeeded me there . Very fine officer and a very gentle person .

Q : Charles Wagner?

A : Charlie Wagner . I think he was one of the greatest

construction guys I've ever met . So fond of him

that when I became assistant chief engineer of Civil Works I discovered to my joy that he was in charge of Chief Joseph Dam out in Washington, and

subsequent to that when I came to Disney I got

Charlie to come with me to Disney . And he was in

charge of construction under me in the Reedy Creek

Improvement District at Walt Disney World .

Q : F .E . Barrett?

A : Yes . He and I were very close . He was in my wedding party, as was Charlie . I sort of lost track

of him after I left, and I don't know whether he's

still alive or not .

Q : Don D . Rait?

A : Yes, I remember him but I can't place him exactly .

Q : Tygart was a PWA-funded dam . Did you have much

contact with the PWA people?

A : No . Oh, I assume there were lots of rules and

regulations that we had to abide by, you know,

putting more people to work than were required, and

that sort of stuff .

Q : Okay . Turning just to the District in general, let

me throw out a few more names . You already

mentioned Bull Styer .

A : Yes .

Q : What is your recollection of him?

A : A tough cookie! He was District Engineer . And he

ran that District, and he knew what his job was,

and he was very, very strict on maintaining proper

use of funds and assuring that the image of the

District was top drawer . He was a good District
1 3

Engineer, very popular in Pittsburgh .

Q : W .E .R . Covell?

A : Covell followed Styer while I was still there, and

he was an entirely different type than Styer . One

of the things he said about my marrying my wife--

who was from Grafton, West Virginia--he said,

"She's a wonderful girl, but it's a hell of a place

to go for Christmas ." [laughter3

Q : Charles Wellon?

A : A great engineer . Just a great engineer! He was

chief of the Engineering Division . Calm, sort of

phlegmatic type, knew his stuff, never got upset, a

man I was proud to know .

Q : Jack Dodds?

A : Yes, I remember Jack Dodds, and he went in the Army

during the war, too, I think . Nice guy . Competent .

Q : You mentioned some projects that you worked on .

Let me just, for the record, be sure that there may

not have been some other ones . Do you recall

Crooked Creek? Were you involved in the Crooked

Creek project?

A : No, but during the '36 flood the first lock and dam

above Pittsburgh on the Allegheny washed out an

abutment . I was put on that job to resurrect that

abutment--and it involved placing an awful lot of

very heavy rock where the flood had taken out the

land where the abutment was sitting, and we had to

reestablish the dam's capability to do its job, but

that was a navigation dam .

Q : How about the Mahoning and Conemaugh projects?

A : No, I had nothing to do with those .

Q : Did you ever get involved in preparation of any 308

studies or reports in the Pittsburgh District?

A : One I remember most was the canal from Lake Erie to

the Ohio River which, I don't know how many times,

had been studied, but it had many supporters . It

was a favorite project of the people in Ohio to
connect Lake Erie with the Ohio River, but nothing

ever happened with it .

Q : But, you did get involved with it?

A : Oh, yes, a little bit .

Q : Okay . Well, I've got two dates, maybe you can help

me out here . I have September '36 that you entered

Engineer school, and then in your biography I have

July '37 . I'm not certain which is correct--can

you recall when you entered the Engineer school?

A : Well, I was married on the 21st of July 1936, and

of course took leave for the honeymoon, and reported into Fort Belvoir in 1936 .

Q : Yes, I think that works out right . September '36 .

Then you graduated in July '37 .

A : Yes .

Q : What was the value of your experience at the Engineer school? Did you think you got a worthwhile

education?

A : It's a rounding out process--no matter what your

work had been in a District, and not too many officers had District experience, I mean in the Corps,

at my grade . But, it was a rounding out experience

for all of us . I hadn't had any military experience except that time at Fort DuPont, and it

brought you up in studies and theory of the responsibilities of, let us say, a major or lieutenant

colonel . In other words, you studied the broader

aspects of handling battalions and so on and so

forth, but also, very deep engineering studies,

too . Civil works oriented .

Q : Did you make any acquaintances there with people

who you maintained friendships with later on?

A : Oh., yes . Bill Ely was one that was in my class .

Oh, if I had the picture I could tell you more of

them, but--I was a new bridegroom!

Q : After you graduated from the Engineer school in

July of 1937 you became an assistant professor of

military science and tactics at Ohio State

1 4
University . Were you happy with that assignment?

A : Well, during the time I was there my two children

were born . I was a captain at that time, and,

incidentally, it's the only time in my military

career that I saved money . But, I liked it . It

was a great experience . When I went there, I was

31 years old but, it was a great experience having

to do with students, I mean young people . And, my

first year there I taught the freshman classes and

sophomore classes in ROTC . Sometimes those classes

would have 200 or 300 people in them, and the

courses were stipulated, I mean, the courses that

ROTC students took were stipulated, and the

students were there taking ROTC for the so many

dollars a month they got, really . And, not only

that, they had to take it . Nevertheless it was

interesting to deal with them, and I enjoyed that

first year no end . My second and third years I was

put into the junior and senior classes ; those who

were going for commissions . And that was more fun

than anything, because the classes were small, and

we were able to become personally involved with the

students themselves, and we, of course, had to rate

them . They were going for commissions, and they

were interested in getting a commission in the

Reserves .

That was really very interesting, and I was very

fond of it and life in the university, which then

had only about 10,000 students . It was not like

going to a huge university today, of course . In my

last year I was made officer in charge of the military band, and you see, a student in ROTC could get

credit if he was in the military band . He didn't

have to go out and drill every day and that sort of

thing, you know . But, the military band was the

football band, and in order for it to receive

credit--for the people to get credit for ROTC--

there had to be an officer in charge of the band,

and I was it, and I used to travel with the band

when we went to Minnesota and Lansing, Michigan,

and so on and so forth . I enjoyed it .

Q : Do you think more students were joining ROTC at the

time because of the clouds of war that were

gathering?

A : No . No . As I say, it was required, it was a land

grant college, and subsequently during the war I

1 5
Q : In September 1940 you were appointed Executive

officer of the 16th Engineer Battalion at Fort

Knox, Kentucky, and the following April '41, you

became the Executive officer of the 22d Armored

Engineer Battalion at Camp Pine, New York . I'm

wondering if you can tell us about your experiences

during this time?

A : Well, one thing was a precursor to that . All of a

sudden the clouds of war started to show up a

little bit, and the 5th Corps, which was stationed,

headquartered, in Columbus, Ohio, was sent on

maneuvers in western Wisconsin . And I was ordered,

with several other officers, not involved with the

ROTC and Ohio State, to go out to LaCrosse,

Wisconsin, and make arrangements to open up real

estate for those maneuvers, and I spent about, oh,

I guess two months doing that before I came back

and found myself ordered to Fort Knox . I was

anxious to get in the Armored Force because it

involved a brand new concept of engineering, and I

went there and the then commander of, I guess it

was the 24th Engineers, was Bruce Clarke . And

Bruce Clarke was, as you well know, one of our

outstanding officers . He not only was an Engineer,

but he became a great tactical leader during World

War II . During that time all the planning that had

been done by myself and others, that without a war

we would eventually retire as lieutenant colonels,

changed rapidly because I went from captain to

major very rapidly there at Fort Knox .

bumped into two or three of the people who had

gotten commissions while I was there instructing .

I think the strength of our Army, in case of any

dire emergency, is going to be the Reserves, and of

course the National Guard, but the Reserves are

really the foundation upon which we've got to

build . I've heard that it's becoming more popular

in the last few years than it was during the time

of Vietnam and that might be one thing that will

facilitate forming a larger Army when, as, and if

it becomes necessary .

I was there about a year when the 4th Armored

Division was formed, and it was sent up to Camp

Pine, which is now called Fort Drum, I believe, and

Bruce Clarke went up there as commander of the

battalion, and myself and several other officers,

1 6
including one I was very fond of by the name of Ham

Morris . We finished the building of the camp in the first place, and then went into training of

that Engineer outfit . During the course of that

time, Bruce Clarke was made chief of staff of the

4th Armored Division, and I forget who took over as

commanding officer of the battalion . We lived in

Watertown, New York . Mrs . Potter and I rented a

house in Watertown, and with two children, of

course . Cubsequently the 5th Armored Division was

formed, again back at Fort Knox, so we rattled back

to Fort Knox where I was assistant battalion commander--deputy battalion commander--and Reggie

Dean, was battalion commander .

Q : Did you run into General Clarke later on?

A : After the Camp Pine experience, no . Oh, I've seen

him since, but professionally, no, we never ran

into each other again . He went his way, up through

command, whereas until I went to Europe I was

totally involved in training Engineer outfits . I

went from Fort Knox to Camp Chaffee as commander of

the 25th Armored Engineer Battalion .

Q : You were at Camp Pine until February '42 and that

month, according to your official biography, you

were both commander of the 25th Armored Battalion

and Engineer of the 6th Armored Division at Camp

Chaffee, Arkansas .

A : Yes . That division was made up of raw draftees .

First place, we had to finish the camp . When we

got down there the streets were all mud and the

barracks weren't finished and contractors were

still at work, but we formed that division . I

think General [William H .] Morris was the

commanding general, and by being commander of the

Engineer battalion, I was automatically Engineer of

the 6th Armored Division . During that time the

reconnaissance battalion was commanded by Colonel

James Quill, not an Engineer . He'd been a

cavalryman, I think . And he and I, and our wives,

have maintained close relationships ever since .

The training went successfully, and I innovated a

few things that seemed to be good . I became a

lieutenant colonel at that time, and then we were

ordered to Camp Cooke, California .

1 7
18

Q: Yes . Now, I wanted to . get a clarification on

that . Who exactly was ordered to Camp Cooke at

that time? Was it the entire battalion?

A: No, the division . Not Camp Cooke . We were ordered

to the desert . We went to the desert and did our

desert training .

Q : Which desert was this?

A : The Mojave . We were there, oh, several months

living out in the desert and had a lot of fun . The

reason for it of course was that at that time the

Allies were fighting [Erwin] Rommel in the African

desert, but it was an established desert training

center, and we lived there for six months,

something like that . My wife lived in Palm Springs .

Q : While you were undergoing this desert training did

you, as an Engineer, did you experiment with innovative kinds of desert supply operations or pipeline operations, anything like that? Was there

anything like that going on?

A: Always . From time to time at midnight, I'd sound

the alert for my battalion, and we'd go tearing off

into the boondocks and go somewhere or other and

set up a defense, peripheral defenses, and get

ready for attack, go out in separate columns,

testing out our radios and communications and that

sort of thing. It was quite an experience and

great training and innovative training because the

book hadn't been written. We got a great deal of

information from the African war, including booby

traps and how the desert was used and how you used

the desert . In an armored outfit, of course, the

Engineers were always called combat Engineers, but

we were heavily armed in our Engineer outfit . And

it was my duty, of course, to prepare the roads and

the logistics for the fighting unit, other fighting

units, the infantry and the armored brigades, to do

their thing. We had maneuvers almost all the time .

Q : As I recall it was the quartermasters, though, the

Quartermaster Corps, that had the responsibility

for water transportation and oil?

A: We had the job of providing the water . We had big

pumps on the canals . You know, the big irrigation
canals that cross the desert going to Los Angeles .

We were able to take water out of those, and we did provide the pump stations and the loading stations and maybe the Quartermaster Corps transported the water, but the Engineers' job is to provide water for the fighting forces .

Q : So then, from the desert, did you go to Camp Cooke?

A : At Camp Cooke it was the 6th Armored Division .

Then they formed an armored corps, the 2d Armored Corps . And a part of the Engineer effort in an

armored corps was an Engineer group, which is made

up of three battalions and a bridge company, and I

was placed in charge of getting raw recruits,

again, and training this Engineer group . I had

three battalions and the Engineer company and a

headquarters company, and we moved to Camp Cooke,

which, again, was a brand new camp, and we had to do all that business of getting ready for occupancy .

Q : In April 1943 you became commander of the 1138th

Engineer Combat Group at Camp Cooke .

A : That's it, 1138th . Again, as for several years, my main job was training new recruits or new draftees

and officers . When I formed the group I had one

regular Army officer . All the rest were ROTC officers who were sent in, and they had to learn their

jobs, too, with court martial authority and that

sort of thing . A broad experience for them and

also for me . But, in those days, and in that age

group, there was an awful lot of ambition and dedication, and it was beautifully done . You've got to

remember that when we started preparing for World

War -II there were only 25,000 Regular Army officers

including medics . And those 25,000 were the core

that was to take the reserve officers, and people

who graduated from officer training schools, and

turn them into some sort of an Army . That's why it

was experience . It was teaching the whole darn

time .

Q : Well, I guess your teaching days ended about

November '43 when you were transferred to Headquarters, European theater, and your first duty

there was as chief of the Troops Section . Can you

tell us something about those . days? What your

1 9
A : Well, General [Jacob L .] Devers, as you know, was head of the Armored Force of the United States, and

he was going over to participate in or to see the

invasion of Italy from Sicily, and I said, "They

surely must need an engineer officer over there

somewhere ." And sure enough, I got orders to go to

Europe . I had been sent back from Camp Cooke to go

back to Fort Belvoir to be put through a course of

anti-tank defense, and while there I got orders to

go to Europe, so I had to rush back to California,

gather my family, drive across the country, drop

them in Grafton--I was going to war right away--and

I went to Washington and waited 30 days to get over

there! And my assignment was going to be chief of

staff of a group of amphibious brigades, the two

brigades that invaded Utah and Omaha beaches . They

were organized with a Superior Command . I was to

be chief of staff of that Superior Command . But,

when I went through London, General [Daniel] Noce,

who was G-4, said he had a nice oak desk for me in

headquarters, and that's the last I saw of fighting

in World War II . And the main job I had at that

time was the placement of troops in England that

were being sent from the United States .

Q : What was your impression of General Noce?

A : Oh, what a guy .' He knew his job . He was a good

G-4 . At that time, you see, General Devers was in

command in England .

Q : But you and Noce got along well, I take it?

A : Oh, yes . Yes, we'd known each other before . One

day he came to me and he said, "Joe, upstairs in

this other building there's a bunch of people from

the movies and the theatre and that sort of background, trying to put together a psychological

warfare organization ." He said, "There's nobody up

there with any military experience . You go up

there and you get 'em organized and develop the

tables of organization and the tables of equipment,

and then you're going back to the states to organize two Psychological Warfare battalions ." So it

took two or three days, and they finally saw that

the military had to have something to do with

duties were, how long you were in this position,

and so forth .

2 0
their activities . It was fascinating because what

we were after were people who spoke languages so

that we could drop 'em in Czechoslovakia and other

countries and also in the battlefield . Another

activity that they were supposed to do had to do

with the interviewing of prisoners and the taping

of their questions and answers . It was a very

broad information-gathering and influence-peddling

organization, so General Devers gave me a letter .

Unfortunately I don't have it anymore because I

turned it over to G-4 of the Army when I got back

there, that said, "Colonel Potter is back here on

the top priority mission of the theater . Give him

all the help he needs . Et cetera ."

Q : This is when you became executive of the propaganda

branch--is that what it was called?

A : Yeah, but that was under Devers' organization, you

see, and my superior was a brigadier general who

was, I think, a brother-in-law of General [George

C .] Marshall, Brigadier General Tristam Tupper .

Nice guy . Anyhow, I went back and this was, I

think, in November, and flew back via Marrakesh and

the west coast of Africa and across to Brazil and

up that way . Quite an experience also . And went

in to see the Army G-4 and I said, "Here's what we

want," and handed him General Devers' letter . The

material and equipment we wanted was, in some

cases, super secret, and he said, "How the hell did

you find out about this?" And I said, "I don't

even know what it is, but here's the name of it,

and we want 16 of 'em :" This battalion will have

16 of them, and other things that we needed were

not yet out for distribution . There was one piece

of equipment that you put a message on it that

might be a page long, and it came out more or less

as a dot . It was extremely rapid, and all that

came out was a dot, and you had to have another

machine that made that dot into the long message

again . And, while they existed they were always

kept in safes and the safes were in short supply .

But, anyhow, the base for forming such an

organization was the OSS . [Office of Strategic

Services], and they were the place where I was

supposed to get these multilingual people, and they

took me under their wing right away . General

[William J .] Donovan was in charge . I never met

him, by the way . The other organization that was

supposed to give me a lot of help was OWI

2 1
[Office of War Information], and the playwright

Robert Sherwood was in charge of OWI . I went to

see him, and when he unfolded in his chair he

almost hit the ceiling . He was a very tall, thin

fellow . And I got no help from them whatsoever .

None at all . They had nobody to spare, so I

continued to work very closely with the OSS, and we

got our battalions organized . We got them sent for

training, we got the equipment, and I returned to

Europe .

In forming the psychological warfare battalions and

getting their equipment, I received enormous help,

of course, from the War Department, which furnished

the equipment, some of which was highly classified . I've explained what their job was going to

be, and we got very competent people, multilingual

where it was necessary, and people attuned to that

kind of operation . And you can see, I think, that

people from the creative industry of our country

were the kind of people who could project their

thoughts, who were not stultified by regulations

and all that sort of thing . They were the proper

people to be able to visualize what psychological

warfare was . And I received a great deal of help .

Almost all the help I got was from OSS, and I made

some dear friends in that organization . I didn't

receive much help from OWI, and as a result of

that, and I believe because OWI felt they were

going to lose their grip on this thing, I was

relieved of that duty and sent back to England .

During that time General Devers had left to handle

the African invasion, and General [Dwight D .]

Eisenhower had moved in . There was a brand new

chief of psychological warfare, and he and I did

not get along . We didn't get along for a half hour

and that's all it took .

Q : Do you recall his name?

A : No, I don't . However, I didn't want to stay on

anymore, except for one thing, and that is the OSS

guys in my battalion sort of expected that I was

the father figure, and when they got to Glasgow and

I wasn't there, being nonmilitary people in the

first place, they sent a delegation down to London

to find out where the hell I was and why wasn't I

up there meeting them . Among the things that they

later accomplished was that they took over Radio

2 2
A : Yes .

Luxembourg when they got there, and they used it as

a great propaganda machine . One of the really topdrawer guys in the organization, Pat Dolan, with no

military background at all, was the fellow who

talked the Germans into surrendering at Cherbourg,

using big bullhorns . He just talked them into

surrendering! There's an article in one Saturday

Evening Post that describes his activities in energizing that surrender of the German troops at

Cherbourg . It was very interesting to me, later

on, that as we gradually overran parts of France it

became necessary to take care of the civilian population . And there was an inkling at me one time

whether or not I would like to head up the OWI

organization that was sort of supervising the

occupied areas of France that we'd freed from the

Germans . I decided that I didn't want that kind of

job and was able to argue General [James A .]

Stratton into not releasing me . When I disengaged

from psychological warfare, I was assigned to the

G-4 section under General Stratton .

Q : You were the chief of the Planning Branch of the

G-4 section?

Q : Could you tell us what your duties were then?

A : Well, the reason I was assigned there was that

Brigadier General [William] Whipple, or then

Colonel Whipple, who had filled that job, was

elevated to the next higher headquarters, to

General Eisenhower's headquarters, where he had the

same sort of job for the multinational activity .

But the job of the Planning Division was to prepare

the logistics plan for the invasion, and that

involved moving troops, supplying troops, making

sure that their movements were coordinated, working

with the commanders of the divisions and corps and

armies, and seeing that everything worked in moving

the troops down to the coast, getting them on the

ships and over to France . And it was organized in

sort of a sequential activity . They were moved

first to a martialing area, an area where they were

supposed to be fitted out in a certain way, and

then to another advanced area where they received

further equipment and did other things . For

instance, one of the last things they did was to

2 3
waterproof vehicles so that they could go off

landing craft and land in a few feet of water and

still be an active vehicle--that was a very

important activity .

One of our problems, of course, was the language

barrier, and that may sound peculiar, working with

the British . The British had prepared all the manuals, and one of them that was hard to understand,

though it was very thin . It was POMSSV--Preparation for Overseas Movement, Short Sea Voyage, the

short sea voyage being from England to France .

But, it described in detail what should be done .

But as little examples of the problems, a truck is

a lorry in England, gasoline is petrol, the hood of

a car is a bonnet, I think, or is that the trunk, I

don't know, one or the other . So, I got a little

perturbed because we were getting so many questions, so I prepared a long chart, about a yard

long, that on the side had the individual, the

squad, the platoon, the company, the battalion, the

brigade, the division, and the corps, and up here,

time frames . I prepared these things, which explain in a chart form how logistically we were

going to invade France . I printed 10,000 of 'em, I

guess . I didn't keep a copy, unfortunately . I

wish I had .

One day I even went up to see General [George S .]

Patton with my stack of forms to pass out to his

people, and had breakfast with him . I'd barely

known him as a colonel at Fort Myer when I was at

Fort Belvoir . During our days at Camp Chaffee my

wife and I got to know his daughters very well

because we were there together, and this is really

the first time I ever sat down with him, at

breakfast, or intimately . And I described my form

and what it was used for, and how they should be

passed out to the company commanders and platoon

commanders and battalion commanders and so on . And

he was interested and listened very politely, but

during the course of it, I was sitting at this end

of the table and he was up at the head of the table

and there were seven or eight other people there .

He looked up and in his high, squeaky voice, said,

"You son of a bitch! Get down from that table, and

get outta here ." His dog had gotten up . [laughter] Scared me out of my--I didn't know if I was

the son of the bitch or not, you see! In London, I

had a staff and planning department and we prepared

2 4
all the logistical plans for the invasion . We'd

developed what we'd do after we got into France,

how we'd establish our big depots of the Ordnance,

the Quartermaster and the rest of them, and hospitals and so on, and I visited the places where the

troops were behind barbed wire ready to load on the

ships, I had general supervision under General

Stratton and General [John C .H .] Lee, of course, of

the operation of the mechanism for getting over

there .

Q : Let me ask you, did you feel competent as an

engineer officer, planning all these logistics

exercises and operations? Did you feel that you

had come adequately prepared to plan what must've

been an enormously complicated movement of troops

and equipment?

A : Yes, but then, you come right back to the exercise

of command by the commanders of the troops . They

knew what they had to do, they understood thor

oughly that they had to be well supplied . We had

top-drawer officers in charge of the Quartermaster

and Ordnance departments and they worked with their

opposites in the tactical units . The Ordnance

officer, for instance, worked with his Corps Ordnance officers and they jointly developed what was

needed and the level of supply and that sort of

thing . And it was up to the planning department

then to prepare for the getting, the storage, the

movement of massive amounts of supplies and equipment . It was enormously complex, and was only

possible because you had planning sections in all

of the services, but they had to be fitted

together, so that the railroad wasn't always full

of Ordnance and then always full of Quartermaster .

It had to be a supply system that got to the users

all of the supplies of various categories that they

needed .

Q : Did you have officers from the various technical

services in your section?

A : I had quite a small section, and we were all

general staff--most of them civilians . I mean,

ex-civilians . One of the interesting things that

we had to plan and supervise was a British-American

operation that was to take place when the Germans

started to pull out of Norway . Its name was something like "Starlight," and we had an organization

2 5
2 6

going up in Scotland that was supposed to move over

there when and if the Germans pulled out . The

system did work, and we had an enormous amount of

help, of course, from the British who had had the

same types of problems because they'd been fighting

the war in France before they pulled back from

France . They knew their business .

Q : After you were chief of the Planning Branch, G-4,

you became chief of the Plans and Operations

Branch, G-4 . Is that just a change in name, or was

it more than that?

A : No, when we got over to France Jimmy Stratton said,

"Hell, you prepared the plans, now it's your

responsibility to see that they work ."

Q : I see .

A : And they didn't in many cases .

Q : We're going to get to that in a moment . I'd like

to ask you a few questions that really go back to

when the United States was just setting up logistics operations in the European theater, and I'd

like to get your reactions to the questions . Was

there a problem emanating from the War Department

reorganization of March 1942, which placed the

chiefs of services, the Adjutant General, and the

special staffs sections having to do with the

entire Army in the SOS? Do you recall anything

about that?

A : No, really, I don't . I probably was cognizant of

it at the time, but that's the way it was set up .

If you read those green volumes, Logistical Support

of the Armies , you'll see that there was a considerable amount of in-fighting . I mean, there was a

problem in melding the various organizations that

had existed before Eisenhower and bringing them

into a joint command . I delved into that quite a

bit, because while I was peripheral, it involved us

because orders would come out changing reporting

channels and methods of operation . And finally, it

ended up, of course, with General Lee insisting and

getting complete authority for the logistical

operations, the SOS operations .

Q : Do you recall any problems with the establishment
of the SOS, the Services of Supply, in the European

theater ahead of the bulk of the field and air

forces and before the designation of the theater

commander?

A : No . We knew our job, we knew what was expected of

us . Whatever machinations took place at higher

headquarters did not impinge upon the planning

activity too much .

Q : The question about General Lee, and I want to talk

about General Lee a bit more later on, but do you

recall whether General Lee was particularly desir

ous of remaining free from either the command of

[Bernard L .] Montgomery or [Omar N .] Bradley, and

could you explain, to what extent you may know, of

Lee's relationship to General Brehon Somervell?

A : The main thing that stuck in my mind is that

General Lee's title was deputy theater commander,

among other things, and I think that was resented

by some of the tactical people, but he had the

prime responsibility for logistical support and he

did occupy a very important position as deputy

theater commander . I really don't know whether

there was an exercise of that authority except as a

staff officer . He was an avid traveller . He

visited all kinds of units and if he saw somebody

without their name tags he was liable to be busted

on the spot . Had his own train and traveled with a

complete staff .

Q : At the end of August 1944, you had a meeting with

Generals Bradley, Lee, and [Robert W .] Crawford and

Colonel Whipple to discuss moving four more

divisions to Europe, and evidently the result of

that meeting was that the group felt that there

were some logistical obstacles to moving four

divisions to Europe .

A : You must remember that in moving people from

England over, it was done by ship, and ships really

don't know any nationality . They were under one

movement control organization and were allocated

for certain purposes . I didn't get into that .

Q : Okay, and I understand you may not have any

recollection of this, but I'd like to ask it of

2 7
A : No, I know that the feeling existed, but I don't

have any examples . It was above my level of

interest even .

Q : Okay . Well, let's go back to D-Day and the days

just after D-Day . What's your recollection of the

logistical problems after D-Day? How severe were

they? What were the major logistical problems that

you remember coming across?

A :

ber any problems as far as that time was concerned,

but problems were developing, and as you know

General Bradley's army was the invasion army .

Q : It was the 12th Army .

A : Eddie [Edward] Plank--General Plank--was made

advance section commander of Com Z, and his relationship to the 12th Army Group was as supply offi

cer for the 12th Army Group . He did relate to us

intimately and regularly, but the 12th Army Group

felt that he was their supply officer, he was

responsible for the procurement, the storage, and

you, and if you do, fine . Talking about SHAEF now,

Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force .

On 1 September it assumed operational control of

all forces, this is 1 September '44, bringing the

12th Army Group under its direct control and placing the Communications Zone directly under the

command of General Eisenhower's theater commander .

The Communications Zone thereby attained the position at least coordinate with the 12th Army Group .

Unfortunately, according to one author, the effect

of this development was to perpetuate the friction

between the Communications Zone and the field

forces, which had developed over General Lee's

position in the United Kingdom, for Lee's headquarters continued to exercise some of the independence

and authority of a theater headquarters by virtue

of the presence there of a theater's general and

special staff divisions . In short, do you have any

recollection of examples of this friction between

Lee's headquarters and the operating commanders or

anything of that sort?

2 8

I don't think that there were any logistical problems, as far as the first few or several days after

the invasion . I mean that was intimate soldier-to-soldier contact, and I really don't remem-
later on, the manifest being available and the ship

number being available and a certain supply that

they wanted right away being known, they were

unloaded, and the rest of that ship would be

unloaded pro forma later on . But sometimes some of

the stuff was never unloaded for weeks and more .

And, I'm not saying that enormous quantities--a

million tons were eventually unloaded, something

like that, my figure may be way off--but, they were

stored in certain areas beyond the beaches, but

still under the control of 12th Army Group, and Com

Z was never able to get in there and establish

systems, Ordnance, Signal Corps, etc .

As a result of that, when the rear boundary was

established we found ourselves in control of

enormous amounts of supplies without any inventory,

without any location plans ; nothing had been given

to us . Now when I say nothing, that may be a

slight exaggeration . It may have been that some of

the services did relate to the services in 12th

Army Group and there was some knowledge, but it was

a plague to us from then on out, and as a result of

that we became victims of the same policy that had

been established . If the Army wanted six-inch

shells, and our manifest showed that a certain ship

had six-inch shells, we would unload those six-inch

shells and to hell with the remainder of the cargo

of that ship! And as a result of, that we found

ourselves, at one time, with over 200 ships

anchored out there, not unloaded and needed back in

the United States to bring other supplies over .

And there were very intense conversations with

visitors from the United States on this . We were

plagued all during the time I was there with the

2 9
inability to devote the time to find out what these

supplies were on the beach . It would be interesting for you to talk to General Plank about this .

His opinion may be different .

Q : So, there was no attempt to load ships with certain

classes of supplies, say, priority supplies, ammunition, you know, and then unloading these ships

first, the manifest would be of all kinds of

supplies?

A : Whatever was loaded, and I don't know anything

about how things were loaded, but there may have

been unit supplies . By that I mean units of cer

tain things that made a complete package for the

supply of a division for one day or something like

that . I remember one time we were highly pressured

because there were not enough eight-inch shells in

France . A need for them suddenly arose, and we had

to go back to the U .S . and get a shipload of eightinch shells to come over, which, I think, went into

Le Havre and was sunk and was unloaded by divers to

lighters rather than at just to a dock .

Q : Did SHAEF G-4 help or hinder your operations? And,

did they interfere too much with operations in

general?

A : No . You see, SHAEF, I think it was General

Crawford, wasn't it, he had to deal both with the

British and with us . He had a broader spectrum

than we had . No . General Whipple was up there,

and he knew our organization and I would say that

more often than not we received help, and he was

sufficiently knowledgeable of how we worked,

because he'd been there before, that he didn't come

to us in a critical way . He came to us in a way,

"How can we change what we've done in the past, et

cetera?"

Q : Were there any supplies that became particularly

acute in terms of shortage?

A : Well, I told you about the eight-inch shells . POL

pipe, pumps, and equipment . , We even loaded a ship

with nothing but POL pipeline out of England, and I

think it came to Antwerp where we had another

problem later .

Q : Did the failure to take Antwerp earlier than what

3 0
we did affect logistics operations to any great

31

extent?

A : We were always short in port capacity . It took us

a long time to clear the port of Cherbourg . The

Germans sunk ship on ship on top of ship, so when

you'd removed one you had one underneath it . It

took a long time to make those quays available for

unloading, and I personally went up there from

Paris, and with the plans for the improvement of

the port of Cherbourg and signed them there with a

colonel who was in command of the operation of that

port . And I think I made a report at one time that

they weren't unloading the priority things before

the nonessential things, you know .

Q : Was that Colonel Sibley, by any chance?

A : No . An old-time colonel of the Corps .

Q : Where were you physically located while working on

the Com Z G-4?

A : Oh, I fought a very hard war . I was in the Georges

Cinq Hotel in Paris .

Q : The criticism's been made that the Com Z moved to

Paris too quickly, that in some way the move to

Paris hindered communications with operating elements . Do you recall anything about that dispute?

A : Well, let me broad brush the picture . We were

strangled by the inability of the armies to break

loose from the beachhead . During that time even

before the rear boundary was established, we were

operating with the situation that existed at Omaha

and Utah, plus what we were able to get out of

Cherbourg, and that involved improving the railroads, and French railroads aren't the same as

American railroads . So we were strangled by port

capacity and were always looking for capabilities

to expand that capacity, and oh, I was sent to

assess St . Malo . We thought we could get St . Malo,

and we heard that the Germans were about to be

driven out . I went barrelling out from--at that

time we had a temporary headquarters behind the

beach, an encampment, all Com Z was over there . I

barrelled down past Avranches and across and up to
St . Malo and found the Germans were not in any way

willing to give that port up, see? And it wasn't

too good a port anyhow . We even at one time

thought of using Brest, but the transportation

problem there would've been terrific and it took

quite awhile to free Brest . So, basically we had

to make Cherbourg do all it could and get those

railroads fixed up as well as we could and work off

of the beaches, and then all of a sudden the armies

broke loose and ran, and there we were not running . Our plan for the logistics support of the

armies in Europe involved the establishment of huge

supply depots in the Chartres area . They were all

laid on the map, this was assigned to ordnance,

this to Signal Corps, and others to others . This

plan never came into being because the armies

advanced so fast that we were always running like

the dickens to get supplies, current supplies, to

them with our transportation never able to build

up these depots that we had planned .

So, when they kept that advance up two things

happened . Number one was the formation of Redball . I went with General Stratton to visit with

Bradley and the situation was explained to us, and

how much faster he was going, and what could we do

about seeing that he was supplied with essentials .

Red Ball Express was established at that meeting.

And it involved taking over all the truck transportation that could be gathered and forming truck

trains . We even took the trucks away from organizations in England, and as soon as an organization

landed in France, it found itself without trucks .

That was a great effort, and it kept the armies

going quite awhile .

In the meantime, of course, the POL pipeline was

being built . It ended south of Paris, but it was

not able then to deliver gasoline beyond that

point . So we had the problem of delivering gasoline to the forward areas . Gasoline became in

short supply! At times we even delivered gasoline

by air, but one of the problems was that any time

we sent a gasoline truck train up to the armies

they kept the truck train to move with them! And

when they finished with the jerry cans they threw

'em in the countryside, and we put on a big drive

with the civilian population of France once to

collect jerry cans . It produced hundreds and

32
hundreds and thousands of jerry cans that we could

start to use all over again . There has been

criticism of the Com Z effort in supplying the

advancing armies, but it comes right down to this,

that the needs were specific, like gasoline and .37

mm shells, or whatever, and those were the things

they needed besides food . The amenities had to go

by the board as fast as they were moving, and the

lines became so long and the trucks so worn out

that it finally stalled a bit, and of course, we

got a lot of criticism about that . Finally came to

the point that the decision was made by General

Eisenhower that 75 percent of the supplies would go

to the lst Army, the army that was contiguous to

Montgomery . Patton's army would only get 25

percent of the supplies, and that order went out,

and the railroad cars and trucks were so

manifested . But, General Patton had a very, very

smart G-4, and he'd come back to places like Reims

with his gang, and they'd change the directions on

the cars : And, Com Z was just beat over the head

because we weren't fol- lowing the theater

commander's orders!

Q : Do you recall the name of that G-4? Patton's G-4?

A : Muller . I think it was [Walter J .] Muller, General

Muller . A top-drawer officer .

Q : Well, the criticism has also been made that the

Com Z headquarters itself was too large in terms of

manpower, and one writer noted that the Head

quarters Com Z eventually took up 167 hotels in

Paris before it was all over .

A : Well, let me go back one thing . When the Army

advanced fast, our way of life had to provide for

close coordination with SHAEF, and we had to move

fast, too, and General Lee, I'm sure, did not want

to move several times . It would've been fruitless

for us to move to Chartres, for instance, because

by the time we got established and the communications in, they'd have been to the Rhine . So, the

decision was made, after, I think, long discussion . The decision was made to move there for

several reasons . One was that the Germans had

supply depots in the Paris area . I was with a

very, very advanced unit . I arrived in Paris, I

think, within a day or so after the Germans got

out, with a broad staff of Ordnance, Quartermaster,

3 3
Q : Let me throw out a few names at you again, and see

how many of these you might recall .

A : All right .

Q : You've already mentioned one, Brigadier General

James A . Stratton, theater G-4?

A : Yes .

and so on, and the purpose of my going along was to

see that one of those didn't take what he thought

was the best facility, but took the one that was

assigned to him . And Paris was a railroad hub .

Railroads came in and went around Paris and then

on . It was the control center of the railroads of France . For transportation this was vital . And

whether our staff was too large or not, we were the

supply organization . We had the job of receiving

requisitions ; getting them to the states after they

were assembled ; getting the supplies ordered, manufactured, and back to us . And in order to do that

the services had to relate to the armies and to the

divisions . So each one of the services had a lot

of officers in Paris . If they hadn't been there

they'd have been somewhere else, but I don't think

the armies ever wanted to, nor were they capable

of, being a supply service in addition to their

fighting job . Their job was to win the war . Ours

was to help them do it .

Q : Have any impressions of him?

A : Dedicated, tough, knew his job . I thought he was a

damn good, great G-4, I really do . The problems

that I described in the past eventually led to his

downfall but he was the victim of a situation he

inherited from the early days of the invasion .

Q : Lieutenant General George S . Patton, commanding

general of the 3d Army?

A : Well, I've told you all I know about him .

Q : Colonel William Whipple?

A : Bill Whipple and I have always been friends . We

were at the World's Fair together, and he's as

bright a guy as you'll ever want to meet . He's a

34
3 5

Rhodes scholar . He's bright as the dickens and way

beyond me in brain brilliance, if want to

it

you

that

say

way .

Q : A person I guess you may have met later on, Major

General Lucius Clay?

A : Lucius Clay was my mathematics instructor at the

military academy, and we maintained a relationship,

oh, I guess all during our careers . There was one

of the brightest, most pragmatic men I've ever

known in my life . You'd start to explain the problem, halfway through he'd give you a solution .

Q : Lieutenant General John C .H . Lee?

A : Yes, I knew him quite well . Very religious man .

He believed in the regulations . He was that kind

of person .

Q : He had a lot of enemies, didn't he?

A : Oh, yes, mostly because in many cases unfairly he

was blamed for not getting the supplies up there,

but also he insisted on his position, and Roy Lord,

his chief of staff, assisted in that insistence .

Q : Would you go so far as to say Lee was a bit eccentric?

A : Oh, he was quite a purist . He didn't believe in

immorality at all . He liked military discipline .

The only eccentricity that I ever heard about was

that one of the soldiers who was along with him all

the time, and had been with him a long time, was a

chiropractor, and he wanted General Hawley to

accredit him medically, and Hawley couldn't do it .

Caused a little argument .

Q : Major General Royal Lord? You just mentioned him .

A : Oh, I know him very well . Yes . Very peculiar guy,

ambitious, ambitious as hell--a politician . You

see his background before the war, and even during

the early part of the war, in Washington, was in

the political milieu . But, capable as the

dickens . Never had any problems with him at all .

Q : Brigadier General Harry B . Vaughan?
A : Yes, nice guy .

Q : Major General Henry S . Aurand?

A : Yes, he was the chief of Ordnance . Very competent .

Q : He succeeded Clay in Europe, came from the Army

Service Forces .

A : Yes . All of Lee's chiefs of Services were topdrawer guys who were dedicated to their jobs .

Mostly old-time Army types, but these people I

related to quite closely because of the necessity

to bring together all the plans into one coordinated plan .

Q : Brigadier General John Ratay?

A : I knew him, but not that well .

Q : Colonel Cleland C . Sibley? He worked in Cherbourg

discharge operations .

A : I knew him, yes .

Q : Not well, though?

A : No, his predecessor is the one who started out that

job .

Q : Oh, that's the name I don't have! Colonel Claude

H . Chorpening?

A : Oh, very well, yes . You know, that's a funny story

there . You're going to get to General Pick later

on, I guess .

Q : Yes, sir . What can you tell us about Chorpening

right now?

A : Only that when [Lewis A .] Pick became Chief of

Engineers, he brought me in from Alaska right away

to be chief of Civil Works . Up until the time I

got there, the chief of Civil Works was a brigadier

appointed by the Chief, but the Chief of Staff made

a decision that all general officer appointments

had to go through the regular appointment process,

and no chief would have appointment for a certain

specific job in his department . Other departments

3 6
had the same thing . So, General Pick was unable to

appoint me a brigadier, but he put me on the job

anyhow . I related on the Hill to all congressional

committees and, as you know, congressional

committees like the chief of Civil Works because

he's the one who funds their projects . But, I

prepared the budget and went up and explained it to

all of 'em and defended the budget for two years .

And, must've done a good job because one of the

congressmen approached the Chief of Staff, and

said, "By golly, you've got to appoint him

brigadier like he's supposed to be . He was

preceded by a brigadier, et cetera ." So, the Chief

of Staff told Pick to take me out of the job .

Q : Yes, I'm going to want to get back to that a bit

later on . How were your relations with Chorpening?

A : Good . Because when I had to leave the job, the

Chief put "Chorp" in as chief of Civil Works .

Q : And, you met General Chorpening in Europe?

A : I don't remember that . I don't know what job he

had over there .

Q : He took over from Colonel Sibley as the person in

charge of the discharge operations at Cherbourg .

A : Well, I should remember his operation, but I

don't . I know it got so severe that they sent

Lucius Clay over there to work on it .

Q : Right . Do you recall Brigadier General Raymond G .

Moses, Army group G-4 .

A : I knew Ray Moses before, and saw him many times,

and talked to him many times . He was G-4 of--

Q : Army--I don't have which Army group--he was an Army

group G-4 . Must've been the the 12th .

A : Must've been Bradley's . I guess it was Bradley .

Q : Yes . How about Brigadier General Robert C .

Crawford?

A : I knew him quite well, yes . He did a good job, or

else he wouldn't have been where he was .

3 7
Q : Did you get along well with him?

A : Yes, I never had any problems with him . He had a

deputy by the name of Sibley who was with him .

Q : Could that have been the same Sibley who was in charge of Cherbourg discharge operations? Colonel

Cleland C . Sibley?

A : No, I don't think that was his name . It was Alden

K . Sibley, who eventually became a major general .

Q : I see .

A : Cleland C . was several classes ahead . Let me look

him up .

Q : I sometimes wonder what we would do without that

West Point Register of Graduates'.

A : Well, Cleland is dead . He retired as a brigadier .

He was commanding officer of ports ETO, '42 to

'46 . I really don't remember .

Q : Aside from what you've already mentioned, do you

remember any particular problems dealing with

transportation in the European theater?

A : Well, no, it was a madhouse . It was a madhouse .

Q : How about the discharge operations at the ports,

and in particular, Cherbourg? You evidently went

down to Cherbourg and inspected there once, and you

complained of misuse of wharfage .

A : Well, they were--see, we were all

those days to the essential supplies,

unloading everything . And, we were

mand a lot of German prisoners in

operation there . The details of my

don't remember at this time, but I

that its full capacity was not being

time for the essential things .

comQ : Well, what about--well, two things . Were there

enough cranes at Cherbourg to unload the material,

and were there enough trains coming to Cherbourg to

take the material and get it to the troops?

38

dedicated in

and they were

using in

the unloading

objections I

was disturbed

used at that
A : We always had trouble with the French railroads . I

told you their equipment was antiquated . Their

rails were different than ours, so the maintenance

had to be learned again . I don't know whether we

used French crews . I think the Transportation

Corps provided lots of the crews . The cars were

small, and it was difficult--the way we worked in

the United States, our cars were large and you

could put a lot of tonnage on--and their way of

life and their communications were different . The

railroads were an enormous problem all the way

through, and the British had the same problems with

those railroads, and the Germans had done some

disastrous work on them before we got 'em . Our

supply system, for a long, long time, depended on

trucks and the POL pipeline .

Q : Do you recall any problems with the cranes?

A : No, I really don't . I don't remember whether there

were cranes there like there were in Antwerp or

not . In Antwerp there were over 100 cranes along

the quays .

Q : What about local procurement? Did you get involved

at all with trying to develop local procurement

operations?

A : I knew about it . Oh, I remember one time we had a

terrible hassle about getting enough tonnage out of

the United States to bring seedlings of potatoes

over . And pit props . The mines, you know, had

been flooded, and we had to get back in those

mines, and we had to bring over boatloads of pit

props to hold up the shafts and so on in the

mines . Anytime anybody had a problem particularly

dear to him, or necessary to him, like pit props,

that became a major problem .

Q : Did the logistics problems operations improve once

Antwerp was captured?

A : Again, and--we received some criticism about that--

I think there were 124 cranes on the quays there,

and the Germans had not destroyed them . They were

there and capable of working . One of the problems

with Antwerp was Montgomery's slowness in getting

it . The Germans were out in control of the waterway, Walcheren Island, I believe it was out there,

3 9
and he wasn't going to attack that until he had all

of his ammunition and everything all ready . And, I

went to Antwerp several times and was in buildings

looking over the operation, and shells were landing

in Antwerp from the Germans out there in Walcheren

Island and other places, but when we got it, our

plans were quite complete as to its operation, and

there was no problem once we got the mines out of

the river . But, again, transportation--and the

first thing you know we had all of those warehouses

on the docks chuckablock with stuff, waiting for a

way to get it out through Liege down to the

armies! And there was a lot of criticism as we

were using it as a depot, which we were! We wanted

to get the ships unloaded because Washington wanted

the ships back, and moving the stuff out was a hell

of a problem . I don't know how many times I went

to Antwerp, but many times . Used to take a train

out of Paris .

Q : But, once it was secure, I presume it expedited the

whole--

A : Oh, yes : It did a good job of unloading, and in a

very important place, tactical place, too, because

it was right there near the armies, and Cherbourg

was a long way away from the armies .

Q : Did you finally get any particular responsibilities, any particular geographical responsibilities,

while working in Com Z?

A : Theater wide?

Q : Theater wide .

A : We had five sections of France where we had

officers in charge of logistics and supply, and I

related to them . I didn't have any command

authority except I was on the staffs of General

Stratton and General Lee, and of course, that gave

me some sort of command authority . You passed

orders on through them and so on and so forth .

Q : I see .

A : One of the most important plans we ever prepared in

my section had to do with the dissolution of the

theater . It was obvious we were going to win the

40
A : Yes .

Q :

war, and plans were made to take troops from Europe

to Japan, and maybe some were sent that way, I

don't know . But, we had an enormous wealth of

equipment, tanks, supplies, and all that sort of

stuff . And, we developed a plan whereby the tactical organizations would go through large establishments that we established geographically and be

divested of their equipment, which then could be

put into transferable condition to go somewhere

else . It's my understanding that General Lord,

when the south France organization moved in on Lee

and replaced a lot of the people, took over that

job himself because he was finding himself not compatible with the new command that was moving in

from the south of France, the new deputy under

Lee . They never relieved Lee, but they put a

deputy in there, and they brought in General

[Morris W .] Gilland as the replacement for Jimmy

Stratton . But, the other thing we established were

these big camps like Philip Morris and Lucky

Strike, the places where the troops were going to

go and be reembarked back to the United States . We

established all of those . So we worked both sides

of the game .

Q : How long were you in Europe then?

A : I went to England in November of '43, and I think I

left in July of '45 .

Q : So you were involved also in supplying troops right

through to the end of the war?

Q : Were there any significant logistics problems once

the troops got beyond the Rhine?

A : Really not, no . The place was loaded . I don't

know whether we ever cleared up that mess behind

Omaha Beach or not . I imagine some of that stuff

was there at the end of the war, purely because it

wasn't in an inventorying catalogue .

Well, sounds as though there were some problems in

World War II that we didn't solve in Vietnam either .

A : Supply's a terrible problem, and the supply in

World War II was a lot simpler than Vietnam because

you've started to get into these highly technical

4 1
devices, and I don't know if there was a helicopter

in Europe! I don't suppose there was . And, there

were no computers, I can tell you that . My particular headquarters, I think I had three English

secretaries and one WAC . Don Neill was a regular

Army officer and assistant G-4 . He had charge of

another aspect, Vic Rapport was Jimmy Stratton's

right hand--he was his . deputy . And Neil Drake was

in charge of transportation in Jimmy Stratton's

organization . Freeman Burford was our POL man .

Q : I see . In July 1945 you were named Kansas City

District Engineer?

A : Yes . Oh, before that, in France, long after everybody else, I got the jaundice, and I was in the

hospital, the American hospital there, for at least

two months . And, that's when this change from the

south took place, and Jimmy, in the meantime, had

left . And, I got out of the hospital practically

on receipt of orders to go back to the states .

Q : I see . I guess you were ready to go back to the

states by that time, too?

A : Yes, I sort of don't like completed things . I like

things that are going on .

Q : Had your wife and children come over and been with

you?

A : No .

Q : Not at all?

A : Oh, no .

Q : So, you hadn't seen them for two years?

A : Except for that time when I came back on the psychological warfare thing, which was only a monthand-a-half after I got over there .

Q : Well, that must've been a bit difficult .

A : Yeah . Well, they stayed with her mother .

Q : I see .

4 2
A : In Grafton, West Virginia .

Q : Well, turning our attention to Kansas City, then .

I have several questions to ask you . Some of them

are not very well related to others, but we'll wend

our way through here and see what we can do . Do

you recall particular problems with local cooperation in Kansas City?

A : Well, the job of a District Engineer is to assure

local cooperation, and the only real arguments that

ever came up were on plans to develop flood control

on the Kansas River tributaries, and there was one

that was quite serious . That had to do with the

first dam we were going to build near Manhattan,

Kansas . There was a really energetic group formed

to fight that project . They even went out to see

Eisenhower after he was elected, in Denver, I

think . They called themselves the Blue Belles,

went out in a bus .

Q : Are you referring to Tuttle Creek?

A : Tuttle Creek . That was the prime dam, the first

one that had to be built, and it was very difficult

for Senator [Frank] Carlson, who realized the dam

should be built, and yet there was a strong, strong

activity to prevent it being built, oh, even to the

extent in Manhattan, if somebody was on the committee in favor of Tuttle Creek and they had a lumber

yard, nobody bought his lumber anymore . I mean it

was that serious . It was a very serious problem .

Q : I want to talk about Tuttle Creek a bit more

because this particular problem extends right

through to when you become the Division Engineer .

It's still a problem .

A : Yes .

Q : Maybe we can hold off just for a second though . Do

you recall something called the Greater Kansas City

Flood Control Committee?

A : As an organization, no, but probably as the individuals, yes . I never had any trouble in Kansas

City with the local hierarchy . They were people

who wanted things done--Willard Breidenthal, Harry

Massman--a great many people like that .

4 3
Q : General [Lawrence J .] Lincoln said that when he went to Kansas City, he found that the chief of construction, a fellow by the name of McDonald, a

civilian engineer, was extremely overbearing with

contractors . Consequently, contractors didn't like him . Also he criticized a lot of the other senior

personnel within the District . Do you recall this fellow, McDonald?

A : A very acid personality . Subsequent to his employment in the District he went with an engineering

firm and proceeded to energize a squabble about

Tuttle Creek and the other dams on the Kaw River .

Personally, I liked him, but as I say, he was a

very pragmatic, acid type of personality and didn't

bend to conversations leading towards a solution .

The chief engineer there was a guy by the name of

McCloskey . NOW, he was an entirely different guy .

When I went there, you see, I was preceded by a

reserve officer, Colonel Neff, who'd been District

Engineer at the end of the war, and he was my

deputy . I set up a very strong construction organization, and I put McDonald in charge of it, and

we became close friends . But McCloskey was the

chief engineer, and I relied on him more than

McDonald .

Q : Do you recall--General Lincoln went on to say in an

oral interview with somebody else--that McDonald

used to love to go around in conferences, staff

meetings, and tell everybody else what he was doing

wrong . Did that ever happen when you were there?

A : Well, not in that context . I required, I set up a

procedure, where the Engineers would design things .

Then before they went out to bid they would go to

the construction division, which would analyze them

for ease of construction or problems of construction, and then that had to be fed back into the

engineering department . Arguments used to take

place whether this thing should be actually moved

or so on, or whether the size of the pump was big

enough and all that sort of thing, so he, being the

kind of guy he was, he would state his things

positively .

Q : I see . Do you recall giving some assistance to

Fort Leavenworth while you were at Kansas City?

44
4 5

A : Only I was sent up there on a preliminary survey to

see whether the prison could be modernized . It was

a pretty archaic facility .

Q : What was your conclusion?

A : That something had to be done, whether it was done

or not, I don't know because then that went back to

the Department of Prisons with somebody else .

Q : I see . Do you recall anything about work at an

ammunition plant at Lake City, Missouri?

A : When I went to Kansas City, there was no place to

live, but I received some help and moved into an

apartment building that was not too--it was living,

I mean, that was it . But, then I heard that the

Lake City ammunition, small arms ammunitions facility, had a lot of houses on it, so with the exception of one or two that were maintained by resident

force, I think I took over ten of the houses . And

for the last year or so of my tour in Kansas City

we lived at Lake City, and my kids went to school

in Harry Truman's hometown, and it was great living

because when the plant was built the houses were--

they didn't hold back on the quality of the houses,

so we had a very, very fine house .

Q : Was the Corps actually involved in building that

ammunition plant?

A : It probably was . It probably was .

Q : Were you involved in the reconstruction or modernization of Fort Leonard Wood?

A : No . I think that was under the St . Louis District .

Q : Okay . There were some problems that developed over

the Harlan County Reservoir . Do you recall that

project?

A : Well, the Harlan County Dam had been started before

the war but stopped during the course of the war,

and I think my first dam building job as District

Engineer was completing Harlan County, and the

contracts were let for the completion . During the

course of completing the dam it became obvious to

engineers that the spillway apron probably needed
Q : Do you recall any particular experiences in Kansas

City that you'd like to tell me about aside from

what we've already mentioned? We'll come to Tuttle

Creek later on, so let's skip that for right now .

A : Well, one of the problems was the reorganization of

the District from a completely military construction operation to initiating again the civil works

operation while continuing a great many of the

military projects . For instance, we had to do with

two major airfields in Kansas, one down in Missouri, one of them was named Scandia . These were

being built for SAC, and we did have a very large

military construction program in addition to the

reinstitution of the civil program, and the civil

program, involving not only the Harlan County Dam .

But we initiated and finished the floodwall and

levees around Kansas City up the Kansas River and

up the Missouri River--down the Missouri River .

And one of the interesting projects was the project

of building a large bridge on dry land, just below

Kansas City . A bridge had to be built because we

wanted to straighten the river out .

Q : This isn't the Decatur Bridge, is it? There was a

Decatur Bridge that you were involved with as MRD

Division Engineer .

A : No, that was a different one . This is the one just

below Kansas City, which we built on dry land, and

then changed the river's channel underneath it

after it was finished . The same thing was done

north of Omaha later on at the Mormon Bridge . Easy

way to build a bridge, by the way .

Q

some tying down, that there might be uplift beneath it under severe spillway operations, and so a plan

was developed where the spillway apron was tied down . That's the only problem that I remember with respect to it .

Was there much time that transpired between the

time you completed the bridge and the time that the

river's channel was changed?

A : Oh no, as soon as the bridge was completed, and we

put the new channel under the bridge and armored

the banks, all we did was close off the old one and

open up the new one, and the river took care of the

major job .

4 6
Q : okay, I see .

A : It was a fascinating time, because we also at that

time initiated the levee projects, the agricultural

levee projects, along the Missouri River from Rulo

all the way down to the junction with the Mississippi River . These levees were a project in themselves, and of course, it called for a great deal

of relationship to the farmers and agriculturists

on both sides because they were largely for the

protection of farmland . When the Missouri River

flooded it used to flood the whole area, you know,

and also the Missouri River, like the Mississippi,

is a wild river . And it made its own new channel,

and a large part of our effort on the Missouri was

a continuation of something that had started years

before, and that is maintaining the channel in the

position that it was . You do that by armoring the

banks and putting out dikes and redirecting the

current .

Q : How were your relations with the Soil Conservation

Service? You must've had to deal with them quite a

bit .

A :

Q : In April 1948 you became the Alaska District

Engineer?

A : Yes .

Q : Did you find that there was a housing problem in

Anchorage when you moved up there?

A : No, I was housed on the post at Fort Richardson .

Q : How about for the staff itself? Was there a

problem--do you know of any problems finding

housing?

A : No, I think most of them lived somewhere in the

area--right close to the area around--I don't think

they were around the post, though . See, that was

an Air Force base, really, with a small Army

4 7

That came up a little later, I think more in MRD

than in Kansas City, because the Soil Conservation

Service were just getting their teeth in the act .

They had a job of selling to do with farmers, as

you well know .
detachment there . General Scott was up there at the time, Stanley Scott as chief engineer .

I think it was interesting how I happened to go up

there . At the end of the war the military command in Alaska started to plan for the future, and at

that time the strategic plan contemplated that the

Russians would come over the chain, the Aleutian

chain, and a large part of the construction was all

designed to follow that particular precept . Sometime, a year or so after that, started right after the war, the strategists decided that the defense

had to be over the pole, which caused the reorientation not only of installations but also of staffing and the kinds of troops and air forces that'd

be up there . The Alaska District got in very

severe problems because, as you well remember,

during the war you had to get things done, and you

did things, and the hell with everything else . And

the mental philosophy of the District at that time

was that they would build on that basis, and as a

result their accounts and their costs--well, their

accounts were not believable and their costs were

out of line . And, this so disturbed the Congress

that they did not make any appropriation for Alaska

in the year that I went up there, and there was

over 1100 million of work under way .

There was a large engineering outfit up there at

that time that had charge of all engineering,

supervision of construction and so on, very

prestigious top-drawer Boston firm by the name of

Fay, Spofford, and Thorndike . The construction was

done by a group of four contractors mostly from the

Northwest, that had been put together in sort of a

consortium . They had large camps--all labor was

imported, because there wasn't enough labor in

Alaska, of course . These large camps were a complete barracks-type housing in effect, no families

in them, but mess halls and all that sort of stuff,

and they existed not only in Anchorage but up at

Nome, or Fairbanks, rather, and maybe one other

place . There were foundations built and walls

partially up and apartments started and not finished for military housing, and a whole group of

important projects that had been started and

stopped because there was no money . My predecessor, a pretty smart guy, being given the job of

rushing this construction through so that the

48
military could start to staff the things that were

needed, had a brilliant thought of getting surplus

military property from the Pacific, from the

Aleutian chain, and from elsewhere . The war being

over, bulldozers and Barber Greens [road pavers]

and trucks and supplies and lumber were all

available, spread all over these places, and he

sent a couple ships out to pick up all these

surplus supplies .

Unfortunately, the manifests of the ships that came

did not necessarily say what was in the hulls of

these ships, and I've always had the feeling that

the supply officers of the various places where

things were picked up knew what their shortages

were . And they not only put the excess supplies

in, but all their shortages, which didn't exist .

And, when I went up there there was a terrible

hodgepodge of materials . Oh, I remember going

through one warehouse, and there were about ten

tons of lead in there, lead ingots, and of no use

whatsoever because nobody made babbitt metal

anymore . Did during the war, but normally your

bearings were already made, and you bought 'em as

bearings . But, I had field after field after field

of very important construction equipment, but the

inventory didn't say what was there . It had to be

reinventoried .

We also had to plan on what we would do with monies

that were going to be made available to the extent

of maybe, oh, I forget exactly, but maybe $30, $40,

$50 million . So, priorities had to be made to

spend the monies where the military wanted it first

spent . Among the places were four huge barracks

there at Fort Richardson . Improvements, lengthening of the runway at Fairbanks Air Base, civilian

housing, fire departments, a great many other

things . There really was no lack of housing existing at that time for people at work, because during

the war Alaska was well established militarily, and

there were large forces up there, and those large

forces included a lot of civilian people, but they

were not top-drawer . Fortunately, we didn't have

the high prices of oil in those days, and heating

was not the greatest problem in the world, but we

worked out--developed a plan with General [Nathan

F .] Twining's staff . He was chief of the Alaska

command . And, developed plans and specifications

for completing these buildings, and to each one of

4 9
the specifications we attached a list of equipment

that would be available for the contractor, so that

he wouldn't have to bring it from the states .

And, we maintained this equipment, brought it up to

date, established the fact that it was in topdrawer condition, and then I took the program and

visited four cities in the United States under the

aegis of the Association of General Contractors,

held large meetings and told them I wanted to come

up and bid, because everything else before that had

been force account with these four contractors .

And, believe it or not, we got good bids from firms

all over the United States, and the consortium

members, I think, bid on a couple of the projects

themselves, but that way of life was established,

and I used to go down to Seattle about once a month

and open bids on the projects that were to be

opened in those days, and things started to boom,

and we also reorganized the housing entity and cut

their rates to beat the dickens .

Q : So, the earlier system was the cost plus fixed fee?

A : Yes, mostly . Which is a nice way of life .

Q : Yes, for the contractor .

A : For the contractor . But, it takes enormous supervision, and when you get people to put in fixed

bids, they're their own supervisors as far as costs

are concerned .

Q : Right . You've mentioned it already, but let me ask

you to expand upon it a bit, perhaps . The relationship between the Engineers and the Alaskan

command seemed to be a fairly cooperative relationship?

A : General Twining told me I was his chief engineer .

Now, General Scott, as you know, was an engineer

officer, and he did have--there were engineers on

the staff of General Twining . But as far as construction and getting things done, he said, "You're

the guy I count on ."

Q : So, who was actually determining the military construction program? That would've been you?

5 0
A : They determined what they needed, and then it was

up to the Corps to support it before the Congress .

Q : I see . Did you have the opportunity to give them

recommendations?

A : Oh, yes . We were close . I used to go on trips

with him . He was quite a camera hunter .

Q : Camera hunter?

A : Well, he'd go out after Kodiak bears with a camera,

you know . That sort of thing . But the reestablishment of peacetime discipline among the people

in the armed forces, and also the reestablishment

of financial discipline in the Corps, recovering

from the World War policies of get-things-done-thehell-with-the-costs, you know, took a little

establishing .

Q : Did you have any particular supply problems in

Alaska, getting stuff from the continental United

States?

A : Well, my predecessor established a real fine

situation . We brought all of the vitally necessary

and short supply things for construction from Seat

tle by air, and that also included frozen milk and

vegetables and all that sort of thing . I mean,

Alaska was horrendously expensive to live in . A

loaf of bread in those days was $1 .00 . 'Course,

it's one dollar today! But, at that time it was 15

cents here in the states, and you lived on frozen

milk that came up in cartons, and all that sort of

thing, you know, and you reconstituted it, sometimes successfully .

Q : Was Fort Richardson one of your major projects,

building that fort?

A : While I was still there--I was there a year to the

day . One year to the day . And, we had just

started--the plans had already been developed, but

started Fort Richardson, which in theory had been a

part of Elmendorf--before that I guess the proper

name was Elmendorf, and we started the building of

Fort Richardson about the time that I was leaving .

Q : Any particular problems with building?

5 1
A : Well, you always have a serious problem in Alaska, and that is with permafrost . And, you have to protect the permafrost . You just can't build on top

of it, because it'll melt, and then your building will sink, and you're in a hell of a situation .

Q : Were you getting any help in meeting those kinds of

problems from the Cold Regions Laboratory, which I

guess had just been started?

A : A lot of our material, I found out, our Engineers

had already got a lot of material from the Soviets .

They had done a lot of work on permafrost . But, we

had during the war discovered the problems of permafrost in protecting it by stilting your houses

where you had it . One of the funny things was as a

result there's a lot of groundcover up there, trees

and forests and that sort of stuff, but they're all

shallow rooted, so they'll root in the part that

isn't permafrost and then spread out, and I have

some movies of Mrs . Potter pulling up our Christmas

tree! Again, it was an experience . I had two

daughters that were, oh, let's see, this was in

'48, and they were ten and nine years old . Even

took a dog up with us .

Q : Did you also work on what was called the Mile 26

Project near Fairbanks? This was evidently an

extension of a runway for B-36 operations . Do you

recall anything about that?

A : No . We had to do with the operation of the oil

line that came from White Horse . There's an oil

line that came from there and went down to the

coast, two or three oil lines, six and four inch, I

guess, and those were a principal supply of fuel

for the air bases .

Q : Were those built below ground or above ground?

A : Most of them I think were above ground .

Q : Because of the permafrost problem again?

A : Yes . The pump stations gave some problem, but

really not . The system worked very well . I remem5 2

ber once going down to White Horse to look over the

main station there and had to stay there for three

days because it was so cold the airplanes couldn't

get off the ground .
5 3

Q : Were there any problems in advertising for bids

while you were up there?

A : I advertised widely in the United States, very

widely, from New York to San Francisco .

Q : Was this atypical? Would most Districts or Divisions do that?

A : I think even in those days your advertisements went

in the technical magazines and the professional

magazines, but I would make sure they were damn

well known, and I would advertise the opening in

Seattle . Went down once a month, as I said .

Q : Were there any other experiences in Alaska that you

would like to mention?

A : Well, on my last day there, for some reason or

other, I took a flight and went up above the Arctic

Circle and landed in a little old Eskimo village,

on the ice, by the way, on the ocean ice, from

where you could see across to Russia, and the Eskimos were celebrating to beat the dickens because

they'd caught their first whale in a long time .

They had it by the tail and they were pulling it up

and gradually butchering it and throwing it over in

the snowbanks to freeze, and beating the dogs off .

It's the only time I got above the Arctic Circle .

I was too darn busy to get up where tourists might

go . It was a fascinating life, though . We have

lots of movies of it .

Q : Was your staff as large a staff as most District

staffs, or was it a smaller staff than most?

A : It was large enough, because you see before that

Fay, Spofford, and Thorndike had been the staff .

By the time I left I think they were in charge of

surveying or more or less those jobs, but I had an

excellent chief engineer and a good staff under

him, and we had to develop a competent financial

staff . The men were there, but setting up the

systems was a problem . We were building, I think,

54 apartment buildings up at Fairbanks, and the

costs that accrued to each one of those was so

varying, one would be almost finished for so many

dollars a square foot and another one would be

barely started, and its cost per square foot was
Q : You closed the lumber mill?

A : Yes, the District was running this lumber mill down

there .

Q : The District?

A : You had to have lots of lumber during the war, you

know, and there was a lot of hemlock and that kind

of tree in that area, and they were sawing trees

and lumbering like nobody's business . When I got

there we had some 20 million feet of lumber in

storage over in Fairbanks .

Q : Did the District actually build that lumber mill?

A : I think so . I don't know what happened to it . I

stopped it after awhile, but what happened to it

after that I don't know . Oh, during the war those

District Engineers were pretty darn competent guys

about getting things done . It'd been put in the

proper place where there was a big supply of lumber, and in those days you didn't have environmentalists telling you you couldn't cut the trees

down . Who owned the land? I think the government

did, I suppose, I don't know .

Q :

yg

the Congress demanded on that sort of thing . So,

what I did was take all the costs that had accrued

to the whole darn project and divided them among

the 54 and then allocated them according to completion, and that way they all finished at the same

dollar amount! Well, it had to be done, and we

were also running a lumber mill down the coast of

Alaska farther away, which I did away with .

In April 1949 you were appointed Acting Assistant

Chief of Engineers for Civil Works . I know we've

already touched upon this, but can you go over how

you received this appointment?

A : Well, it goes back to the time when I was in the

Kansas City District, and General Pick came back

from Burma . He had started all the major works on

the Missouri River . You've heard of the Pick-Sloan

plan, which was the plan for the development of the

Missouri River ; Pick being the Engineer and

[William G .] Sloan being Bureau of Reclamation .

54
pppgg

the Congressional steps . When he [General Pick]

left--of course Fort Peck had been built before

this--it had been built under the REA days or

whatever the initials were, but the plan provided

for the construction of Garrison and Oahe and Fort

Randall and the one at Yankton . Subsequently, a

power dam was added to it, about halfway down the

river . But, he wanted to come back there and

finish his plan, or at least get it going, and he

did . He found in Kansas City a strange guy he'd

never heard of, who'd been there about six months .

General Pick was, like so many people, almost a

genius . Liked to have people he knew and trusted

around him . He had his own coterie of people who

he took from the District to Burma! And when he

came back they came back .

But here was a strange guy in Kansas City, and our

relationship for a little while was strange, and I

could see that I was not his favorite person . He

had sort of a pulse-feeling fellow, not an employee

of the District, but he was closely associated with

them otherwise, he used for PR purposes . He sent

him down to Kansas City to discover what the reaction would be if he had me relieved, sent somewhere

else .

By that time I'd gotten pretty close to the people

in Kansas City--this fellow has told me the story

since, and he went back and told Pick, he said,

"Don't you dare touch him ." He says, "You'll be

starting a volcano down there . Potter's well

ensconced . Get 'im in the team ." And, since that

time I was a member of the Pick team . And, while

he had his peculiarities, they were the kind of

peculiarities that said, "Let's get the job done

and to hell with who we walk on top of ." And, oh,

just an example--when he was put in charge of a

large military construction program for the whole

Missouri Basin at the start of the war, he could

see that lumber was going to be a problem . So he

bought all the lumber that was available anywhere,

and everybody else that wanted lumber later had to

come to him if he could spare it . And, he built

camps all over . I think, I'm not sure, he built

the Japanese internment camp or not, but military

camps all over he did . But, that's the kind of guy

he was . He saw a job, he went out, and he got it

done .

5 5
Q : Let me read to you one of the stories that I've

heard . This is from the transcript of another person who was in OCE at the time you became acting

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil Works . I'd

like to get your reaction to this . "The best example of Pick surrounding himself with his own

cronies was when he selected Potter to be director

of Civil Works . I'll say one thing about Joe

Potter, he turned out to be a hell of a great guy .

But he selected Joe Potter . Joe Potter at the time

was a District Engineer in Alaska . He was a

colonel . He selected Joe Potter and he brought him

in, and the job called for a general, a brigadier

general at that time . So Potter never got the

title of director of Civil Works . He had the title

acting director of Civil Works . Well, he was on a

year . I don't know how long Joe was on, a year,

year-and-a-half, and then the guy told him he had

to get a general in there . And he, Pick, didn't

pay much attention to what his superiors in the

Pentagon were telling him . So one Friday afternoon, he got the word Joe Potter was out and for

him to have a general'in there by Monday morning ."

A : No .

Anyhow, I then became an accepted member of the

Pick team, and when the problem in Alaska came up,

I think he was the one who recommended to General

[Raymond A .] Wheeler that I could probably

straighten that problem out . They relieved the

other District Engineer, and I went to Alaska on

darn near a moment's notice . Mrs . Potter and the

kids followed me and came up by boat . I went up by

air . Had a nice house, nice living .

What the fellow was saying was that Joe Potter was

brought in as a colonel by General Pick because Joe

Potter was a good friend of General Pick's, but he

was brought in as a colonel and the job called for

a general, and General [Peter A .] Feringa who had

been your predecessor, had been given the one

star . And because General Pick wanted you in

there, he took you in as a colonel . And it was

only when there was congressional pressure that you

were given-- excuse me, that's not right .

Q : No . It was when he got pressure from the Pentagon

that you were given the one star .

56
A : Well, a part of that's correct . The job previously, and I think by law, provided that the Chief

of Engineers could appoint a colonel as chief of

Civil Works and give him the grade of brigadier

general . The Chief of Staff of the Army rescinded

that authority and said that all general officers

in the future would be appointed by the regular

selection process . He's right that I was put in

there as "acting" because Pick couldn't do both

things . He couldn't have a general officer in

there if I was going to be filling the job . So,

for a year-and-a-half or so, I was acting as a

colonel . And then due to the fact that by that

time I had made some friends in Congress, one of

them went to the Chief of Staff and said, "Why

isn't Potter general?" So they solved that problem

by telling Pick to take me out of that job, which

he did, and brought in General Chorpening who did a

fine job there .

He then made me assistant chief for Special

Projects . And among those special projects was the

St . Lawrence Waterway, and for about a year I was

charged with reviewing the plans, seeing that the

plans were right, and then selling the St . Lawrence

Waterway to the Congress . It was a rather timeconsuming job, and I thought I had it sold . But

one of the states concerned had highly important

union people who were in the mining business and

the railroad business and that one state wouldn't

support it . So, it didn't go through the Congress

for authorization at that time, but did within the

next two or three years .

But, during the time I was on that job--oh,

incidentally, I might say that when I was due,

after Alaska, to go the the National War College

Pick said that that wasn't necessary ; he wanted me

at Civil Works . So when the heat got tight, he put

me into special projects . And when the St .

Lawrence project was not authorized, he told me he

wanted me to go to the National War College . Two

Engineers went to the National War College every

year, which is one of the greatest educational

experiences I've had--if colleges were like that

I'd stay in college all my life . It was a fascinating experience . There were top-drawer people

from all over the world lecturing us every morning,

and meeting in committees thereafter with the same

5 7
fellow . A staff made up of historians and strategists and all that kind of expertise . But we had

everybody who was of importance in the world

address our classes .

I was there a year, but to show you the kind of guy

Pick was, there was one appointment that he could

control . The head man or the chief or the general

in charge of the Industrial College, which is on

the same site as the War College, had two assistants, both of whom were brigadiers . And whoever

went in those jobs was a brigadier . The National

War College, at the end of the year, divided into

three teams and visited various parts of the

world . I was on the team that went with General

[Harold R .] Bull, who was the commander of the

National War College, to Europe . And when we're in

Paris, he called me in one day and he said, "You've

just been made a brigadier general ." Pick had appointed me to that job in the Industrial College .

And that automatically made me a general officer .

And I think that I'm the only officer who was ever

made a general officer while he was a student at

the National War College .

But that's the way Pick worked around, and that's

the way I got my first star . And I remember talking with General Scott and Mrs . Scott, who are

dear, dear people, and they both said that they

thought it was great but they thought I was a

little young . And I said, "How old were you,

Stanley, when you were made brigadier?," and he was

a year younger than I was! [laughter]

4 : I guess that shut him up .

A : Yeah . Well, anyhow, I was to be assistant commandant--"commandant," that's a word -- of the

Industrial College . And it was funny, in Europe,

as soon as I became a general officer, I was due to

have an aide . Well, this turned some noses up, and

every time our group went to another country, why,

the military commander there would make sure that I

was singled out and taken care of . It was embarrassing at times .

Mrs . Potter and I were assigned a house at Fort

McNair, where I was going to live, and this was

after graduation . And we went to the house and

5 8
A : Okay .

decided what color iwe wanted the inside painted,

and what changes we!might want . And she was sitting on the floor cane day over there and I came

over, and I said, " ;You don't need to worry about

this house anymore .' General Pick's sending us to

Omaha ." Whereupon she wept and carried on because

it would have been a. nice life there, you know . A

nice club, beautiful: surroundings, and an academic

milieu . So we took up our furniture, and I went to

Omaha as Division Engineer in 1952 .

Q : Well, let me go back a bit then and pick up some

things about your 'days as Assistant Chief of

Engineers for Civil ',Works . Let me read something

else to you, another transcript .

Q : This is called snitching . "I always remember when

Joe Potter came in .! He called us in, and he told

us he was going to put a confessional in front of

his office with some crying towels on it because

from now on, as far'' as we were concerned, we were

going to be nobody, 4nd the Division Engineers were

always right ." If the Division Engineers wanted

anything, we automatically approved it .

Well, after about six months of that, we had rubber-stamped everything . We got six months of

that . Potter callg again and said, "For God's

sake, those Division Engineers are going to drive

me out of my mind . They're directing me up on the

Hill . I can't even go up on the Hill because of

all those dumb things they're doing . Get after

them ." Do you have any comment on that?

A : I don't specifically; remember it, but having been a

District Engineer tw'ce, you can understand my mental attitude . The Chief of Engineers' office was a

restrictive device to the fine things we wanted to

do . But after I got' there, I found out how perfect

the Chief's office w4s . And also, less jocularly I

guess, the Chief's Office had I don't know how many

hundreds of projects! around the United States about

ready for construction, under construction, authorized and ready for construction, ready for submittal of their studies to the Congress . And it

became quite obvious that our relationship with the

Congress determined ;what was going to be done . So

5 9
our budget, and also we had an amount of money that

we could frame into for all of the things that were

under way . So your budget had to be made around

the envelope that we had to operate in . So if I

did say that, and you can understand why I might

have said it, you can understand why I changed my

mind .

Q : As Chief of Engineers, was Pick as unpopular as

some have claimed? In fact, some have gone so far

as to maintain that the only reason why General

Pick became Chief of Engineers was because President Truman wanted him to be Chief . Is there any

truth to that?

A : Pick was not a West Pointer . As I told you, he was

a stepper on of things . I mean, he and Leslie

Groves were a great deal alike . Groves admired

Pick very, very much, and counted on him to no end

during the war to get military construction done in

the whole area, the Missouri Basin, and I think

farther than that even . He really relied on him,

respected him, and he gave him sort of a free hand .

Groves was not a popular officer in the Corps or in

the Army because he was hard-handed in dealing with

people, and Pick was exactly the same . So because

of two reasons : he wasn't a West Pointer, which I

think was important, I mean in generating some

feelings, because the Corps had always been West

Pointers . And the fact that he had operated like

he did operate, and understood politics to no end .

He was unpopular with a large group . So unpopular

that when General Wheeler was to retire, the Chief

of Staff asked him to stay on for an extended

tour . But Truman wanted Pick, and finally the Army

had to give in .

Q : I'd like to go through again a series of personalities and get your reaction to them . These are

mainly people whom you dealt with while you were

Assistant Chief of Engineers . Will Wittington,

chairman of the House Flood Control Committee .

A : Oh, yes . What a guy . There was the ultimate .

He'd been in charge of the Flood Control Committee

for goodness knows how long . You were answerable

to Will Wittington when it came to a project in his

district and on the Mississippi River . I think

everybody on the Mississippi River went to

6 0
Wittington to make sure that he would be for the

project when it happened, or when it came up . He

was a fascinating fellow to deal with . One of his

ploys, I forget the name of the little river that

went through his district--

Q : The Yazoo .

A : The Yazoo, I guess . There was a study on the Yazoo

authorized and under way, but it never got finished . It never got finished because Wittington

always wanted to say during election time, "By

golly, I'm going to get that study done, and we're

going to get this thing built," you know, and he

could answer all questions by answering the question on the Yazoo River . He was really the traditional, old-time type of congressman . But he knew

his business, and he knew flood control .

Q : Bruce Tucker? He was Senator [Richard] Russell's

assistant .

A : Yes . A very funny story about Bruce Tucker . When

I was due to leave the Canal Zone, and when I was

an aspirant to be Chief, my successor in the Canal

Zone was one of Bruce Tucker's favorite fellows .

And he almost cursed me for getting him out of the

way so he wouldn't be in the running for Chief .

What was his name? He was my successor in the

Canal Zone . He only stayed there two years . He

didn't like it down there .

Q : Frank Boykin?

A : Oh, what a creature! Honest to goodness, what a

creature! He used to bring bear steaks up and have

dinners in Washington when it was illegal to have

bear steaks . Loved his little toddy every now and

again . I'd be going through one of the tunnels

under one of the Houses of Congress, the House of

Representatives, and here Boykin would come down

the other way with a group of constituents, and

he'd say, "Stop . I want you to meet one of the

most important people in Washington ." [laughter]

I had to meet and shake hands with every one of the

constituents there .

Q : How about Clifford Davis from Tennessee?

A : I knew him, yes . He was another of the traditional

6 1
types . Wore his crutch long after he was shot just

so he could say, "I defend your principles up

there ." These guys were competent congressmen .

They represented their bailiwicks . But of course,

then, politics was not the same as it is today .

It's an entirely different thing . You didn't have

how about General Feringa?

6 2

welfare, you didn't have food stamps, you didn't

have all those other things .

Q : Right . Do you remember John Rankin, of Mississippi?

A : Not too well, no .

Q : He had quite a reputation as a bit of a Red baiter

as I recall .

A : Oh, I guess so, yeah . The top-drawer guy was the

senator from New Orleans there .

Q : Well, there was Senator Overton .

A : That's it .

Q : Of course, he died in '48 before you got there .

John Overton .

A : No . I knew him on the Hill . Went to a dinner he

gave in New Orleans .

Q : It must have been before you came to Washington .

I'm doing some work on the Mississippi River right

now, that's how I know these people .

A : He was the dean .

Q : Yes, sure enough . Overton Brooks?

A : Congressman from what's the name of that town up

the Red River?

Q : Shreveport?

A : Shreveport, yes . All these guys lived and died

with flood control .

Q : Yes . Let's turn our attention to some of the

people who worked with the Congress but within the

Corps . You've already mentioned some of them, but
to come and replace me .

6 3

A : I knew him pretty well . He understood the job of

being chief of Civil Works very, very well . Very

popular on the Hill . . He left there and went down

to New Orleans to become the head of some company

down there . Was it a power company? I think it

was, yes . No, he knew the business . Not necessarily a close friend, but he knew the business .

Q : Was he--would you classify him as an extrovert?

Did he seem to get along with people?

A : I think he was extrovertish . I mean, you had to be

on that job . You couldn't be a retiring and sitin-the-corner person .

Q : Right . General Hugh J . Casey?

A : Oh, one of my top favorites . This was, is, a

great, great man, and his career shows it . They--

he and his wife were, I think, first lieutenants at

Fort DuPont when I went there and they sort of

father-figured me for a while, and, oh, we had the

same group of friends . And, of course his success in the South Pacific shows what kind of guy he

was . A real volatile Irishman type .

Q : General Leif Sverdrup?

A : Sverdrup was as dear a friend as Casey . I didn't

get to know Sverdrup very well until after the war

when he had come back from the war and took over

his company again, Sverdrup and Parcel . And if

ever there was an extrovert, it was Leif J .

Sverdrup . And he masterminded a great many things

that happened on the Missouri River . He was

totally accepted and a member of every group that

existed in Kansas City and in Missouri . He wielded

an enormous amount of power in Missouri . When I

was with the World's Fair and wanted a Missouri

exhibit, I went to Leif Sverdrup and said, "Let's

get going," and he did .

Q : Okay . How about Major General Chorpening?

A : I think I've commented on him . Different type of

guy than the others . Very self-assured . I don't

think he had a fear of anything that had to do with

civil works . He was more or less hauled out of bed
Q : Major General Emerson Itschner?

A : Yes . Emma--I would say that Emma's a good friend

of mine . He had to put me in a very untenable

position at the end of my tour at the Panama Canal,

which we'll get at later I presume . I always considered him a great friend . I'm sure he didn't

want to do what he was forced to do, but I respect

him .

Q Could you discuss for a moment the effect of the

Korean War on Corps work during this time, particularly since you were involved mainly with civil

works? Was there a major impact on civil works

operations because of the Korean War?

A : What were the dates of the Korean War?

Q : The Korean War started in '49 and lasted to about

'53 . So you were right there in the midst of it .

A : No, I don't remember that . The biggest project

that the Corps initiated while I was there, that I

had nothing to do with, was a military project up

in Greenland .

Q : That was Operation Blue Jay, I think it was called .

A : Yes . And I remember sitting in meetings with Pick

and Pete Kiewit, who he wanted to be the prime

contractor up there, but as I said it didn't

impinge on me at all except as an advisor to Pick,

and I sat in meetings when they were discussing

organization, scales, reimbursement, and that sort

of thing . And I forget who was made District

Engineer up there .

You know, going back to Casey, he and Roy Lord were

two of the officers up at Passamaquoddy during the

days of FDR .

Q : Right, yes . We've got a Passamaquoddy file . We

have quite a number of those reports from Casey .

Very interesting . You were in OCE at a time when

there was real concern about Red infiltration into

the government and agencies . Of course, this was a

time just before McCarthy first started talking

about--

6 4
6 5

A : Yes .. I don't have any memory of anything like that

at all .

Q : Okay . How about interaction with the Hoover Commission?

A : Well, I guess as far as any recommendations of the

Hoover Commission were concerned, they had to be

considered as bitter enemies .

Q : You mean the Hoover Commission and the Corps?

A : Yes, the report of the Hoover Commission concerning

the Corps . We had to consider them suspiciously .

In that connection, at one time when I was in the

Canal Zone, Sherm Adams came down there . And we

were leaning on the locks one time, and I happened

to--maybe this resulted from a Hoover Commission

recommendation, but I sort of broached the question

about the fate of the Corps and all that . And he

said, "Damn it all, General," he said, "if the

Corps was done away with, we'd have to invent it

all over again ." [laughter]

Q : Paraphrasing Voltaire, I suppose .

A : Yes .

Q : Did you have to give testimony frequently at Hoover

Commission hearings or anything like that?

A : Never that I remember .

Q : How about the St . Lawrence Seaway project? You

mentioned it briefly .

A : Yes . At one time, when we were all ready, I took a

group of congressmen from, I guess, Montreal up the

whole St . Lawrence Seaway and ending up at Duluth

at the upper end . And went all over the whole

thing . Went over the taconite production and all

of the things that were going to use the St . Lawrence Seaway, the lock, and the Welland Canal . I

tried to show them the importance of being able to

have complete navigation up through there . We also

dealt with a civilian organization in Washington .

Danny Danelian had formed an organization after he

left the government--when he was with the government he had to do with the St . Lawrence Seaway
6 6

inspection trip to look it over to see what the

condition of them were . We had had trouble with

one of the locks with expanding concrete . And we

made prepared reports on the Tennessee Tombigbee .

I remember somewhat presenting those reports to the

Congress showing that it had a feasible economic

ratio . And I really thought it was going to

float . It has very good things about it . I guess

it's going now, isn't it?

Q : Yes .

A : And it'll provide a very good channel for navigation if it's big enough . I don't know how wide

it's going to be . They've widened it from the

original plan as I remember .

Q : Considerably .

A : Yeah . Like all projects like that, there were

"furs" and "aginers ." But it took a long time for

those who were in favor of it to win .

Another project with the same sort of contentions,

and this is one that Overton Brooks was concerned

with, was navigation up the Arkansas River to Tulsa

and beyond . And I guess that's under way and

almost finished .

Q : It's finished . The McClellan-Kerr Waterway .

A : Is that what they call it?
6 7

Q : Yes .

A : I used to know Senator [Robert S .] Kerr . What a

guy he was . He wrote a book, you know . I think I

have a copy of it home somewhere . He and I were

great friends .

Q : Do you have any recollection of a story about how

Senator Kerr got that waterway funded? I don't

know whether you've heard about this, that he held

up appropriations for an interstate highway until

the congressman who wanted that highway built also

expressed willingness to fund the McClellan-Kerr

Waterway . Do you recall that?

A : He was a devious man when he wanted something

done . I don't remember that particular thing, but

I can imagine darn well it was done . We had

already started when I was there building some of

the peripheral dams, one of the big ones up there .

I can't remember the name of that dam .

Q : Are there any other controversial projects you can

think of you had to deal with while you were in the

Chief's office?

A : Snake River .

Q : Could you tell me something about that?

A : Well, the Snake River was an enormous power project, but there were also salmon on it, just like

there were on the Columbia, you know . And I don't

think a solution was ever arrived at while I was

there . Subsequently, some of the power companies

were able to get authority to build dams on the

Snake of lesser height, I believe . I used to visit

that area quite a bit, and visit Chief Joseph when

it was under construction . And, oh, I looked at

the fish hatcheries and all those things that would

impinge upon a project, such as the fish elevators

and ladders .

Bill Whipple was District Engineer at Walla Walla

during that time . We had a District then at Walla

Walla, and Charlie Wagner was chief of construction

on the Chief Joseph Dam, which they're expanding I

understand .

Q : Yes . Well, the major problem on the Snake River,
then, was just the question of wildlife and fish?

A : The fish and maintaining the valley in its natural state .

Q : So it was an environmental problem?

A : Also, yes .

Q : Was it resolved while you were still in OCE?

A : I remember going to a hearing when a predecessor

organization, Friends of the Earth--of course, both

sides were represented at this hearing . I'm sure it was on the Snake River because of the pictures

they bought . And the proponents spoke first, as

usual . And they said, "The opponents of this project will tell you this, that, and thus and so, and

these pictures will show that what they're going to

tell you is not true . And not only that, the head

man that's going to make the presentation has never

been out of New York City in his life ." And the

fellow had to admit he'd never been out of New York

City in his life . [laughter] But he had all the

words . I forget who this hearing was before, but

probably a congressional committee of some sort .

Q : Well, I guess maybe environmental problems first

became an identifiable problem, at least an articulated one, for the Corps in the North Pacific

Division because of the salmon fish problem .

A : Not only that but the wildlife . How the elk and

the deer migrated, and how many were up there, and

how they crossed the river, and all that sort of

stuff . Yes, without having a name like "environmentalists," these people were in evidence, they

had the purposes that they still have . And not as

severe as the problem on that dam at Tennessee

where we were going to protect the snail darters .

Q : Well, let's not take undue credit . That was the

TVA, not the Corps .

A : Well, I see . Well, it's the same sort of thing,

only they hadn't found out about the snail darters

in those days .

Q : Right .

6 8
6 9

A : It wasn't an endangered species so much as it was

protection of wildlife .

Q : Sure . Which of course you were mandated to do, to

work at least with the other wildlife agencies .

In August 1951, you entered the National War College, and you've already mentioned that you really

enjoyed your time there . Why were the courses

there so valuable for you?

A : I think personally--first you've got to look at the

makeup . The makeup was, there were a hundred students as I remember . And of that 100, about 10

were from the State Department ; one from Commerce,

at least one . Maybe, oh, the other military

departments made up most of them . The Corps got

two, the Infantry got three, or what have you . But

to me, it's the kind of wide experience that an

officer who's going to advance in the Army actually

has to have .

I told you about the people who came to lecture

us . We had Margaret Mead for instance give us two

lectures . Well, that might sound a little bit

peculiar, but anthropology is damn important in

understanding why other nations don't feel and act

like we do . And it's one of the main reasons why I

feel that some of this silly stuff we do about

imposing our way of life on other nations will

never work, because they're not attuned to that

sort of thing . For instance, Russia is a matriarchal sort of society whereas we're a macho sort

of society here . I guess that's the wrong word .

We had the Director of the FBI come up and talk to

us . We had Allen Dulles come and talk to us . We

had the great Israel diplomat .

Q : Ben Gurion?

A : No, not Ben Gurion . A big tall fellow . Very

heavyset .

Q : Abba Eban?

A : Abba Eban . We had him come and talk to us . Other

foreign people of equal prominence and people in

the United States . And even a prime minister or

two . And they were there under the strictest--we
will not say what they talked about or said--they

leveled with us . And the reputation of the War

College is such that they could be very free about

what they said, even in the part of some of the

U .S . people criticizing verbally members of Congress or other members of the department, or past

Presidents, or what have you . We had lectures on

world economics, and that's where I first learned

that money is not money . It's a commodity like

wheat and corn . Only the fact that we deal with

dollars makes it any different than talking about

wheat in bushels . Understanding that attitude in

world economics to me is quite important .

After these lectures, we had very prominent professors at the War College . You'd divide the class

up into three parts and the lecturer went to one

and these others went to other groups . And you'd

discuss what he said . We did two problems while we

were there, which, to me, were not that important .

Oh, I remember one I was concerned with was the

defense of Europe or the invasion of Europe, I forget which . Anyhow, I felt we should invade through

Greece rather than through France . We lost . I

mean lost the argument . And the other one was to

prepare a thesis on assigned subjects, and I had to

prepare mine on nationalism in Latin America . I

didn't even know what nationalism was in those

days . I mean how it differed from love of nation,

you know what I mean .

And these classes took place in the morning and

every Monday you got a stack of reprints out of

books you never would think of looking at . And you

could read them or not read them . There were no

tests of any kind . You were there because of dedication and interest in what was going on . As I

say, it was the greatest educational experience I

ever had . And the only thing that makes me feel

badly is that it couldn't continue by having transcripts and stuff sent to us as postgraduates . I

understand why they're not . The War College used

to put out a book four times a year that had articles by people on various international projects .

They don't do that any more for some reason, I

don't know why . But very interesting things having

to do with world situations and that sort of

thing . But I enjoyed it to no end . In fact I

don't know of any time in my career when I haven't

7 0
enjoyed what I was doing .

Q : That's nice to be able to say .

A : But I've been very lucky . I just happened to be

available for Jimmy Stratton, who became chief of

Civil Works after the war you know, to become Dis

trict Engineer . I was on spot when Wheeler needed

somebody to go to Alaska . I was on spot when Pick

moved in and wanted me to be chief of Civil Works .

I was on spot when the flood of '52 took place, and

he wanted to replace the then Division Engineer, I

was there ready to go . And the governor of the

Panama Canal--when the time came, had sort of

offended the Secretary of War, and Sturgis wanted

me to go down there . I had been through the canal

when I went to Nicaragua, it was the only time I'd

ever seen it . And afterwards, instead of not being

Chief hurting me, golly, it got me with Bob Moses,

which was a five-year experience, and at that place

I met Walt Disney . Wanted me in his organization .

And how lucky can you be? Being on the proper spot

at the proper time .

Q : Well, you're able to make use of those opportunities : I think that's important, too . Can we

go back for a moment, General Potter, to when you

were Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil Works?

You said you were in charge of some special

projects . Could you elaborate on that a little bit?

A : Well, I've already described the St . Lawrence Seaway, but one of the most interesting was being the

representative of the Chief's office in the negotiations with Canada on the diversion and use of

waters at the Niagara Falls . Everybody has long

realized the potential of the Niagara Falls for the

generation of power, and both Canada and ourselves

did have generating plants at the falls, but it was

felt that in fact a large amount of water was

available for additional generation . It was necessary, however, to always consider that Niagara

Falls is a world-renowned spectacle . It's a great

national asset and in the old days everybody used

to go there for their honeymoon, as you well know .

And it was essential that if more water was going

to be used for generation of power, that the falls

would still be adequately covered by water to have

the same look that they've always had .

7 1
As you know, there are two falls . There's the

Canadian and the American, and the Canadian are

much larger and a much larger amount of water goes

over the Canadian falls . The American falls have

degraded over the centuries to where they aren't

quite the spectacle of the Canadian falls . And

there was a feeling since there had been

appreciable rock falls at the American falls, that

that falls might eventually become a rapids rather

than a falls . So, engineering plans were developed

and we discovered of course that--many years before

that there had been extensive studies on the

Niagara Falls on not only how they were formed, but

what was going to happen to them . The rock at the

top of the falls where the water goes over is a

pretty hard rock, but the action of the water as it

falls tends to erode softer strata that -are under

the top strata and this causes the top strata to

fall down . So the engineering plans provided for a

distribution of water over both falls by means of

control structures above the falls that would send

sufficient water over both falls, especially the

American falls, so that both spectacles were

maintained .

And the next thing that had to be done was the

generation of a treaty with Canada . And I sat in,

goodness knows, I don't know how many meetings with

Canadian authorities, the minister of Canada, developing the treaty . And if you think it takes a

long time to, for instance, to develop SALT II, I

found in negotiations with Canada it's not as

time-consuming but equally detailed . The position

of an adverb and a comma and a semicolon and all of

those things that are important in the English

language, are things that are arguable for hours .

And then while the language differences are not

great, there are still some language differences

and different meanings of words, et cetera .

Fascinating but dull and boring--but you realize

that those diplomats have this as a way of life,

where we as engineers don't have it the same way .

Nevertheless, you realize that both had to protect

their country's interests .

So we finally arrived at an equitable and acceptable division of the waters, and the Canadians were

all ready with another power plant to put in on

their side . I don't know whether we've ever put

another one in or not . I think we have . The one

7 2
we had was old and inefficient . But the plan was

finally worked out, and it involved a great deal of

interesting engineering . Normally when you are

going to survey a river, you send people out in

boats and they probe the river . You find out what

the bottom looks like, and you can calculate the

amount of water that's passing by . Well, you can't

do that above the falls because you won't last long

there . You'll go over the falls and become a newspaper article . So our surveying was done under a

carefully contrived use of helicopters . A helicopter would go over, and the surveyors would be

able to tell where the helicopter was, and they

would be able to measure the depth of the cord and

the weight that went down to the bottom, and find

out what the bottom of the river looked like as far

as its shape was concerned . Then knowing the speed

of the water you could tell the quantity of the

water that was going to each falls .

Colonel [Herman W .] Schull, who had been a roommate

of mine at the military academy and subsequently

was lieutenant governor of the Canal Zone when I

went down there, was the District Engineer who

devised this system of doing the work .

Q : Was the treaty signed while you were still there?

A : I think so, yes .

Q : Was that a necessary preliminary, do you think, to

the St . Lawrence Seaway?

A : No . It had nothing to do with it .

Q : Nothing at all connected with that?

A : It was basically two things, seeing if we could get

more power out of the falls, but at the same time

protecting it as a national heritage and a worldwide fascination . In one of the old books having

to do with the studies that had been made 50 years

before, there was page after page of little blobs

of color that showed what the color of the water

over the falls would be if it was this thick, or

that thick, or however thick . It would be

interesting to look that up just for your own

amusement .

And, of course, we could generate power at night at

7 3
74

a much greater volume than we could during the daytime . Because at night, all you see is the surface

of the water .

Q : Well, these were private utility companies that

were--

A : No, well, the Canadian government has an electrical

authority of some sort . Who owns that power station on our side, I don't know, but I believe it is

the New York Power Authority .

Q : Okay, returning to the period about 1951, you

entered the National War College in 1951 . Then in

June of '52, you became the deputy commandant of

the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, a position which you've already remarked you enjoyed

immensely . About that time you became brigadier

general?

A : During the time I was a student at the National War

College .

Q : During--actually--before that time .

A : The stars were put on a blue serge suit in Paris .

And I have a picture of that with General Bull

putting them on .

Q : In July '52, you were appointed the Division Engineer of the Missouri River Division . The floods,

the '52 floods, were only a few months before that

time .

A : They were on their way down .

Q : Yes . Did that have anything to do with your getting that position, that they wanted somebody out

there to take care of the floods?

A : I think Pick wanted somebody out there who he knew

could--that he had experience with, really .

Q : Let me ask you some general questions dealing with

the Pick-Sloan plan, really . Was Pick, to your

knowledge, and I realize this goes back before your

time at MRD, but was Pick's plan really Pick's?

A : Pick and Sloan .
Q : Well, okay . We have testimony--I've seen testimony

where Pick said he didn't even know Sloan too well,

and that as far as what he developed, I mean, he

developed independently without too much of Sloan's

help . But I'm wondering even to that extent, how

much did his own staff develop those plans?

A : Oh, the staff were the workhorses . Going back just

a little bit, as I remember historically, Pick

developed his plan in the MRD . Sloan developed his

plan in the Bureau of Reclamation . Both of them

included a great many of the same things . And the

problem was to avoid a knock-down, drag-out in the

Congress . It seemed better to put the two plans

together . And the end result was, simplifying it,

that we got the mainstem dams and they got the dams

on the Yellowstone and other places . They also by

law are the distributors of electricity . We generated electricity at our dams and turned it over to

them for distribution .

Q : Did the '52 flood have much of an effect on the

development of the Pick-Sloan plan? In other

words, did it perhaps accelerate the development

because of fears of people and so forth?

A : Well, it had a very serious effect on a lot of the

elements of the Missouri River plan . Before that,

we had thought that the highest water on the Mis

souri River was the 1903 flood . Everything was

designed around that as being the "grandpa ." The

'52 flood was larger and except for some massive

sandbagging may have gone over some of our levees .

I think it may have even gone over the floodwalls

in Kansas City . So it was necessary to revise the

volumetric part of the design criteria as far as

heights were concerned of levees and other protective devices all the way down . As to their effect

on the mainstem dam, they were large enough to take

care of the '52 flood . But it did cause us to revise some of the plans for the Kansas River, maybe

strengthen spillways and all that sort of thing

prior to designing the dams .

Q : Well, are you saying then that the '52 flood exceeded the so-called project flood that was being

used?

A : Yes .

7 5
Q : And was the project flood the same as the 1903

flood? I would imagine there would be some sort of

margin of error .

A : Oh, yes . As far as we knew historically, that was

the largest flood that had ever happened . And we

do a lot of research . We go around and see high

water marks and happenings on ground centuries back

to see if anything else has ever happened that we

could identify . But 1903 was the criteria with

some margin on top of it . But nothing like the '52

flood had ever been in our planning .

Q : Well, so then to be the gadfly for a moment, would

you argue that there was poor planning on the part

of the Corps not to be able to--

A : Oh, no . I don't think so because you've got to defend these projects before the Congress and we

don't always design a project on the basis of a

1,000-year flood . In an area that can't justify

the cost of a large project, you design it on the

basis of a 50-year flood . For instance, my gates

out at Disney World are based on a 50-year flood as

are the canals . You take a calculated risk and

protect against the maximum flood that the economics will support .

Q : Was there something that happened in terms of projects that had been already built on the river, the

Missouri, that may have somehow contributed to this

increased flood in '52?

A : The size of floods on any Midwest river, especially

the Missouri, depends upon the thickness of snow in

the Rockies . And there are very fine instruments

in those snow places up there that tell how deep

the snow is, and they are monitored continually by

the Weather Service . And then it also depends upon

how fast that snowmelt gets out . And that completely depends upon the weather, the heat and the

temperature up there where the snow is . That is

all carefully watched all year around . You've read

this year that the snow cover up in the Rockies is

not as great as it's been in the past, and people

are worried about what is going to happen to agriculture and power generation in the Great Basin .

I say this, that in the '52 flood, the calculation

of the height of a flood at a certain place done by

7 6
Q : Oh, yes . They're fascinating .

A : Yes .

hand is a very time-consuming exercise, very timeconsuming . Fortunately, we had the Missouri River

model at Vicksburg . And while we did a lot of calculation, as I understood it in the MRD, I came

there after the peak had passed . I was told and I

visited Vicksburg afterwards, that the constant

telephone connection with Vicksburg, and the putting into it of information in volumes at Fort

Peck, for instance, and how the Yellowstone was

coming out and all that, enabled us to be extremely

accurate at Kansas City or St . Joe or other places,

but specifically Kansas City . As a result, we were

able to give them much more warning to get some

more sandbags on those levees than they would have

had if we did all of that calculation by hand 24

hours a day . So the Missouri Basin model was our

guide during the time of that flood and it worked

100 percent . Did you ever see those models?

Q : I presume that the '52 flood would have accelerated

demands by local interests to get the Pick-Sloan

plan moving .

A : Oh, you better guess .

Q : Well, turning 180 degrees, really, in the other

direction, there was a drought in the '50s too . Do

you recall the drought affecting Corps responsibilities in the basin in any way, shape, or form?

A : No, I really don't .

Q : Okay . The state of Montana seemed to have been, if

not the most, one of the most vociferous objectors

to phases of both the Pick-Sloan plan and the Missouri Basin compact . Do you have any recollection

of objections by the state of Montana? I suppose

your recollections would basically have to do with

drawing off water from Montana to other parts of

the basin .

A : Well, sort of vaguely I do remember that they

didn't feel that they were getting the benefits of

the whole plan . For instance, when I went on the

Hill and talked and asked authorization to increase

7 7
about that . You ought to read the testimony . You couldn't afford to neglect the appeal their

testimony had before all the committees of Congress during the time I was there, or my predecessors or

successors . Their local project was of great

importance to them, even more so than a major project such as Garrison Dam .

Q : Well, I've seen some of it . In a letter to Governor Anderson, you hinted that inflation was a

problem for projects even at that time . Do you

recall any particular problem with inflation?

A : Did it exist then?

Q : Yeah, it seems to be a problem . It's been with us

for awhile .

A : I hope I didn't invent it! [laughter]

Q : In that same letter, you also said that the Corps

saved millions on Gavin's Point, Fort Randall, and

Garrison . And I'm wondering, how did the Corps

save millions?

A : Well, if you want to relate it back to the inflation, by getting the jobs done orderly but fast

without delaying completion . We always seemed to

be well funded for the Missouri Basin dams . I

mean, rarely were we cut down, rarely . I remember

one thing that happened . The Garrison Dam was on

the books and had been defended before the war, and

my figure may be wrong, as a $64 million project .

I probably meant that increased cost of the construction, labor wages, and the price of equipment,

and all that sort of thing caused by the war . It

was my duty, finally, one year because we couldn't

hold off any longer--Pick would never let me tell

him that the cost had gone up to $75 million . It

got to the point where we were asking for more or

less finishing monies, or last phase monies, but

that were going to go over the $64 million and,

"Why is that, Colonel?" I said, "Well, we've

reevaluated everything ." My testimony on that

point is very good . I mean, you should see it .

Anyhow, they finally accepted that fact that it was

going to cost more than we had originally--than

General Pick had originally said it was going to

cost . But he protected that $64 million--if that's

the right figure--tooth and nail for a long time,

until I finally had to tell him, "How the hell are

80
we going to ask for $72 million when it's only

going to cost $64 million?" So you think now, the

difference between 64 and 72 is t8 million

dollars . Today that's way to the right of the

decimal point .

Q : Sure, right . So you think that probably what you

were referring to in this letter to Anderson is

simply that the expeditious construction helped to

beat the rise of inflation?

A : Yes . An important part of my job was to keep close

relationships with all the governors of the states,

with all of their bureaucracies that had to do with

our projects . See I had military construction in

ten states, besides the civil works . And that

involved the airport up at Minneapolis-St . Paul . I

forget the name of it, but we had to do with revamping that airport, the military project . So

that we--well, I don't want to say it's a political

job, but you had to keep hands on with the political entity because their lives, politically,

depended upon some of these projects in important

parts of their states where the citizens realized

the value of the project . And I will always

remember the great support I got from many of those

governors . One of them, the governor of North

Dakota, just a great guy, a great guy . And the

governor of South Dakota who was that Marine Corps

General, Joe Foss, who received the Congressional

Medal of Honor . A great hunter, also, and fisher .

All top-drawer guys who were practical and

sensible, but politicians who knew how to represent

their citizens .

Q : We're going to talk about some of these people in a

moment, I think .

A : Okay .

Q : This is a stab in the dark but I wanted to ask you

this question . Did the steel strike in '52 and the

collision between Harry Truman and the steel strik

ers in that year, did that affect Corps work at all?

A : I think the problem we had with steel was intense

after the war when steel supplies were in short

supply and the steel mills were reverting from

civilian products . No, I can't remember anything

specific--oh, yes there was, There was a great--

8 1
because of the shortage in rebars, reinforcing

bars, there was quite a development of an industry

to make rebars out of rail steel, old rails that

had een pulled up and been replaced, you know .

This was quite an active group . And the only trouble was that rail steel is more, not friable, but

brittle steel than what rebars are supposed to be

made of . The darn rail steel usually wouldn't let

you bend in a "U" in four seconds or something like

that, and we were always squabbling with he rail

steel-rebar people about not buying their product

except for certain specific requirements . That was

a problem I remember in Kansas City .

Q : Another sort of stab in the dark . The 1950s was

the era of the grain surplus problem, as you

recall, surplus in the granaries and so forth . Do

you recall whether this grain surplus problem

affected SCS, Soil Conservation Service, plans for

small reservoirs and flood control activities in

any way?

A : No, except that during the time I was in Ohaha, and

I don't remember if when I was in Kansad City just

a few years before, the Soil Conservation Service

became quite a vocal group and had, of course, a

large entourage from among farmers . They--those

were the days when they were really trying to get

contour plowing under way . They had their own

reservoir planning ideas . And we had quite a

squabble around Lincoln, Nebraska, I think it was--

do it or we'd do it and we had to come to a meeting

of minds, and we'd do certain things and they'd do

other things .

Q : General Whipple gives you credit for putting a new

budgeting and accounting system into operation

while you were Division Engineer . He said that,

and he was looking at it from the point of view of

OCE at the time, he said thathe thought that you

were the only Division Engineer who really got this

new accounting procedure into operation . And I'm

wondering if you can comment on that, if you could

describe the system which Whipple at least was very

keen on?

A : I wish I could . [laughter] I'm glad I did it .

[laughter] I've always been very cost conscious .

8 2
You see, you have to defend your requirements for

money and your expenditure of money . It's always

been stated that the Congress is the greatest provider of money and the poorest manager of money

that exists in this world, and I guess that's true .

And maybe they won't deny it . But when that money,

which is a public trust, gets in the hand of the

spender, he is subject to, more so today than then,

rigorous examination by the Bureau of the Budget .

I think the toughest questioning I ever got was

going before the Bureau of the Budget with my

proposed budet for the next year because they had

people there who knew these projects inside and out .

They kept close track of them, and they knew more

about them than the congressmen did--financially .

And it was essential that you kew something about

how that . . money was being spent . The art of

accounting, I don't know, is still developing . But

I did have that consciousness, and I may darn well

have insisted on refinements in the system then so

that I would at least know how I could talk about

things .

One of the things I sent up to West Point in my

memoirs was a hell of a big folder of speeches that

I made in the Missouri Basin and other places .

Whether that's mentioned in there, I don't know .

Mostly they were probably--

Q : I think it's mention in some of your correspondence actually back to OCE .

A : The biggest change I ever made in any accouting was

in Alaska when we had to get- out of a wartime

philosophy of funds and into a peacetime philosophy

of funds . By the time I left there, those accounts

were in damn good order, and we knew what projects

were costing . If you're on a cost plus fixed fee

on both design and engineering and construction,

you can almost defy anybody to tell you what something's going to cost .

Q : Do you recall any problems the Corps had with the

Rural Electrification Administration, REA?

A : I think the struggles there, probably, were between

the Bureau of Reclamation and the REA . See, we

were hands off on the electricity once it left our

busbars, though we felt we could have done a better

job than they did . But the electricity wasn't ours .

8 3
84

Q : Do you recall whether the REA was pushing maybe for

steam generation versus--

A : Hydro?

Q : Hydro, yes .

A : No . We wouldn't have had anything to do with that

anyhow, you know .

Q : No, but these were some topics that you may have

heard about, that's all .

A : You see, in Iowa for instance, and you've touched a

little chord, I think there were 11 power utilities

in Iowa . And I remember having arguments with some

of them . And what they were about and why I was

arguing with them, I don't know, but there were

very positive feelings on their part that the power

should go to them and, I suppose, would I support a

bill in the Congress to give our Randall power to

them, for instance . I don't know .

Q : How were relations between the Corps and the Bureau

of Reclamation while you were in the Missouri River

Division?

A : On a personal basis, very friendly . Due to the

Pick-Sloan plan, what was theirs and what was ours

was defined . And I don't remember--we would like

to have built the Yellowstone Dam, which was a big

prominent project . We thought we should build

that, but the agreement that was made between Pick

and Sloan was that that was theirs, and they better

keep their hands off the main stem .

Q : Well, as a matter of fact, you did suggest to the

Bureau of Reclamation, or suggest to General Pick

actually, that the bureau and the Corps do some

switching, and you suggested that Red Willow and

Pioneer dams go to the bureau, and Glen Elder and

Wilson go to the Corps . As a result of that, evidently Red Willow did go to the bureau, and the

Corps did get Wilson Dam, but the other two dams

were not switched . What were the reasons for those

switches .

A : Probably--you see, what is it the 57th parallel?

No .
I got there, Randall was

Oahe I started and got

there . The Big Bend Dam

thought about it because

85

at least half completed .

well along while I was

came after . We'd always

it was obvious there was

Q : 97th, I think .

A ; 97th is it . West is theirs--when that came out, I

don't know . West of the 97th is theirs, and east

of that it's ours . My feeling was that if a project was totally flood control, it should be the

Corps of Engineers . That kind of squabble came up

in California, too, you know, with the dams out

there which we insisted on and we built . Of

course, there was some irrigation on those things,

too . But mostly they were flood control and

power . And we were very defensive on having those

things . I don't know if we are today, but we were

then .

Q : Do you recall anything about the relationship

between Nebraska's Public Power Corporation and the

Bureau of Reclamation?

A" No . You know, in the Missouri Basin, especially in

South Dakota and even in Nebraska, during the Great

Depression, those states became quite social . And

I don't mean social with parties, but socially

oriented . South Dakota even has a cement plant

that they operate as a state entity . Kansas is

very strong in rural electrification . There are

two big power entities in Nebraska . One is the

Omaha Public Power, and the other is the Nebraska

Public Power, right?

Q ; Yes .

A : But those things resulted from the Depression when

these states went into self-funding projects .

Where they got the money, I don't know . But even

here in Orlando, you know, we have the Orlando

Utilities Commission owned by the city of Orlando .

Do you recall working with Karl Mundt in developing

the Big Bend Dam project in South Dakota?

A : Oh, yes . He was quite a guy, really . The problem

was, the dams were all in the plan, the problem was

getting them going . Fort Peck had been finished, of

course . The first big dam was Garrison . And when
quite a drop of water from above the bend to below

the bend, and power generation seemed quite feasi- ble at that point . But I had nothing to do with that whatsoever . I did do the one at Yankton,

Gavin's Point, which is a control dam for plants

upstream and navigation downstream . It's remarkable what those dams have done with clarifying the

Missouri River .

Q : Well, was there significant opposition to the Big

Bend Dam project?

A : I don't remember any .

Q : On September 2, 1954, you wrote a letter to Emerson

Itschner, Assistant Chief of Civil Works, and you

wrote, "I have no joy in writing this letter, but

the change in policy which you are apparently

making with respect to relocations hits too deeply,

and in my estimation, violates so severely common

practices that we've had for at least the last ten

years, and probably longer, that I must express as

energetically as I can my complete unhappiness with

the policy that you've enunciated in your endorsement to use on a road and bridge relocation on

Oahe ." This strikes me as a very, very strong

letter coming from a Division Engineer to the--

A : I was a spoiled brat . [laughter]

Q : Can you give us a little bit about the background

of this thing? Do you recall anything about this?

A : No .

4 : Itschner evidently took a policy that you had

articulated on the Oahe Dam and expressed objections to it, and you thought it was a basic change

in Corps policy dealing with relocations .

A : No . Of course, there're always relocations where

the small tributaries that come into a dam interfere with an old road and you have to relocate the

thing . Shucks, I've been doing that ever since

Tygart . We relocated a whole railroad there, and

the government paid for it, the relocation . What

the change of policy was, I don't know . You'll

have to ask Emma .

8 6
when I went there, as I remember, I turned over a

large part of the military construction to the Kansas City District . It wasn't enough to keep all

the Districts involved, but some had a very strong

military program . But while I was there, we did

build big airfields and improved airfields for the

Air Force in Kansas and Missouri . Another project

I had, Curtis LeMay didn't like it, I built him his

new headquarters building there in Omaha . He basically didn't like the Corps of Engineers . He felt

8 7

Q : It may be in that bundle of letters .

A : Yeah . When was Itschner assistant chief? Do you

remember?

Q : I don't have his exact dates, but he evidently--

this letter was sent to him while he was assistant

chief on 2 September '54 .

A : And see who was the Chief then?

Q : Would it be Sturgis?

A : Yeah, Sturgis, I guess . I'm glad I wrote letters

like that, instead of namby-pamby ones .

Q : No, you didn't . You came right out with it . While

you were Division Engineer at MRD, there was a lot

of military construction going on .

A : Oh, yes .

Q : Was this military construction part of the effect

of the Korean War or was this--

A : It may have been, but there were enormous military

projects and smaller ones too . For instance, there

was a chemical plant down there in St . Louis

that--what did it produce? Some highly volatile

chemical, I think . But we hd quite a problem

getting that thing under way . There were many

projects that were put in during the war, you know,

and had to be brought up to date maybe because of

Korea .

Q : You were talking about the reasons for increased

military construction in the Division .

A : I think there were ongoing programs . I remember
that they should do it all in the Air Force . That

was always a problem .

Q : Talk about General LeMay .

A : What a guy .

Q : One of the depots you built was the Sunflower Ordnance Depot . Were there any particular problems

with that depot that you recall?

A : No . One I had something to do with is that. chemical plant out in Denver that produced nerve gas .

Q : Right .

A : I only visited it once .

Q : There were some difficulties with the Air Force

when it came to coordinating Air Force base construction . Particularly, for instance, you had

some problem with determining land use at the

Lincoln Air Force Base .

A : I don't remember that particular thing, but as I

said before the Air Force did not particularly

appreciate the Corps of Engineers . We had our

directives from the Congress--not from the Congress

so much, but from the Department of Defense as to

the quality of things that should be done . And I

remember very well that Curtis LeMay felt that his

base there at Omaha, he wanted to build quality

buildings for the soldiers, but it wasn't in the

bag . We were never close, I mean, never friendly .

He accepted the fact that I existed, and that's

about all .

Q : How did you find him? Was he--he sounds like he

was a bit overbearing .

A : Oh, he's the guy who invented SAC and he did it by

being rough and tough, not only on his own soldiers, but on everybody else . He really made SAC,

and it was only the discipline that he put in that

caused that to be the organization that it is today .

Q : But did you like him?

88
that . One was the quality of the aggregate . And a

8 9

A : Not particularly . Not particularly, because he was

impolite . Goddamn, he'd go to an important party

and sit there with a cigar in his mouth . To me,

that was socially unacceptable . Well, that's not

too important militarily . It is as far as getting

along with people in town . First time he went to

play golf at the Omaha Country Club, I heard he

wore his pistol the whole damn time he was playing

golf . Another time, I went down to inspect a big

base we were putting housing on down in Kansas, and

I was a B .G ., and the commanding officer was a

colonel . Then I went in on an appointment to sit

down with him and discuss things, and he opened a

drawer and put a .45 on the desk . Well, that's

alertness .

Q : Something like that .

A : Yeah .

Q : Do you recall any particular problems you had with

the construction at Sedalia and Smokey Hill Air

Force bases?

A : I think Sedalia was the one where we were putting

in aluminum siding on the barracks, and they didn't

particularly like it . And that's why I think I

went down to Sedalia to talk to those people .

Another of the problems that came up--they'd gone

to a new generation of airplanes after the war, and

the tolerances in the runways that were in our

specifications were those that were acceptable to

the Air Force at the time they were approved . But

the pilot sat so far forward in these newer bombers

that if you had as much tolerance as we had, the

pilot was going up and down like a yo-yo because he

was so far ahead of the wheel . And we had to go to

much closer tolerances in the surface of many of

those airfields .

Q : Well, in relation to these asphalt airfields, you

were afraid that some contractors would submit,

what you called in one letter, "take-a-chance

bids," and get burned . Do you recall that?

A : Not particularly, but you always had to watch out

for several things in construction of things like
contract will try to get by with an aggregate

that's proximate and will save him money, whereas

the specifications will require a different

aggregate . Asphalt--placing it is of vital

importance . You can't place it when the surface

underneath it is wet or when it's raining, or

anything like that . And the contractor will wnat

90

speed to save labor time, and that probably

pertains to making sure that our inspection was

rigid .

Q : Do you recall--was the incendiary oil plant at

Denver within the Pocky Mountain Arsenal? Was that

on the arsenal grounds?

A : That's not the nerve gas plant?

Q : Well, now, frankly, I'm not certain because it is

called incendiary oil plant, and I take that to

mean napalm . Would that be correct?

A : I don't remember that . The only one I ever visited

out there in any depth was the nerve gas plant .

Q : Were there any particular problems in constructing--building that building?

A : No, it was almost done--it was really under the

supervision of the Department of the Army but we

had the construction contracts . And it's a very

touchy project as far as safety is concerned, as

you can damn well imagine .

Q : Sure .

A : And I was very much interested in that the safety

requirements were not only being met, but were

actually safety--

Q : What kind of special safety requirements were there?

A : Each of the floors was grilled . There was no solid

floor, they were grilled, and any place anybody

worked in there, there was a big shower head in

case anything leaked . A fellow could pull a shower

head and douse himself .

Q : You went to make Garrison into a military district to work on Glasgow, Minot, and Grand Forks
9 1

Air Force Base, but it never happened .

A : At one time there was a Garrison District, but it

was totally involved in building the dam, and

expanding it to do these other jobs would have

saved some travel and made the administration a lot

simpler .

Q : Why wasn't it approved?

A : Because the dam was getting done . You see, we had

a town at Garrison, we had a town at Fort Randall,

and, I think, at Oahe . And they were pretty nice

little towns, and they would have had a purpose for

a permanent organization . And I think on that

case, I was thinking up a subdistrict, really, that

would take care of Minot and what was the other one?

Q : Grand Forks, Rapid City, I think those were the

three . Glasgow and Grand Forks .

A : Yes .

Q : At you Garrison and Fort Peck sites, just out of

curiosity, I'm wondering what were ranks of the

people in charge?

A : Resident engineer .

Q : But were these military or civilian?

A : Civiilian .

Q : Okay . So you didn't have any military at these

sites?

A : As I remember, maybe at one of them . I seem to

remember visiting a captain at one of those sites,

it may have been Garrison .

Q : Do you recall how large the organizations were at

these places? I mean, about how many men or how

many personnel?

A : Well, I'd say in the 40- to 50-person range, something like that . There were adequate houses

there . Maybe it was much more than that . They

probably did some on-site engineering too .
Q : Do you recall the differences between these two

dams, Garrison and Fort Peck, the structural

differences?

A : Well, both are earth dams, both have powerhouses .

Garrison is much larger than Fort Peck, size-wise .

I think its lake and its volume is much bigger than

the other .

Q : At Garrison, what effect did the Corps' taking of

land have on the Fort Berthold Indians?

A : Well, the Indian story is a long story . These

reservoirs impinged on Indian lands . Indians are

not the most ambitious people in the world . Their

lands are really managed by the Bureau of Indian

Affiairs, which, as an organization, I have no use

for whatsoever . They treat them like retarded

children, and to some degree they make them retarded children to the extent that the Indians had

been raised for 100 years or more as people under

surveillance and "we'll take care of you, but it's

not going to be too good, et cetera ." The Bureau

of Indian Affairs, not the tribes, for instance,

leased their lands to cattle growers . Along the

river, there was a lot of cottonwood . The cottonwood provided shade for the cattle in summer . It

also provided firewood . The river had fish in it .

All these things were attributes that went with the

land that the Indians owned . I guess I took over

well over a million acres for all the dams involved . And the Fort Berthold Indians were a great

deal like the other Indians, the Sioux and the rest

of them all the way down the river . .

The Fort Berthold problem, I think, had been

largely solved when I got up there . But the other

Indian problems--I met with the Indians--they all

had committees with their chief, and they were

tough negotiators . Of course, the Congress passed

the bill paying them for the land . I remember on

one dam, I hired an appraiser who had been on the

side of the Ute Indian tribe out in Colorado, and

he was a winner for them . So, I hired him to do

the appraisals for me on I think it was Garrison .

It may have been Oahe, but one or the other . I

went up and met with these Indains in their little

community buildings . He appraised this one bulk of

real estate at something like, say, $2-1/2 million .

92
And the Indians wanted $35 million . And out of the

Congress, they got almost what they asked for,

which caused me a considerable amount of dismay, of

course .

But the thing I didn't like is that this money

comes under the surveillance of the Bureau of

Indian Affairs . Now this is then, I don't know how

it is run now . And so they made a per capita

distribution to the tribe of people of $1,000 each

rather than to the elected tribe officers to assure

proper control . So, what did they do? They went

into town, spent most of it in a week . Some of

them bought television sets where there was no

capability of using the televisions . Despite that

they had been hand-held all the time, no handholding was done in respect to how they spent the

money . What they got was a very, very small part

of the amount that the House and Senate

appropriated .

Fort Berthold's was a similar type of fight where

the appraisal was a certain amount of money . All

these Indian tribes had some pretty smart people--

guided, of course, by people in the Bureau of

Indian Affairs . Some of the things that happened

are unconscionable . I mean, for instance, what was

a deer worth? Well, a deer was worth what they

were going to get out of the hunter . The hunter

came to hunt, and the money he might spend in the

corner store and the employment he might make of

somebody to skin it and carry it out, and the price

of that deer got up to be $200 or $300 . And so the

deer were counted . The deer weren't changed at

all . They were just moved somewhere else .

They couldn't use the cottonwood anymore . But,

what was the cottonwood worth? Well, the cottonwood was worth what it was worth to provide shade

for the cattle, a matter of certain value . It was

worth firewood, that had a certain value, and it

was worth the board-feet of lumber that was in the

thing . All of them were evaluated .

There was a kind of rat that existd out there in

the prairies, and this rat went around all the

corn- fields and pouched the corn and took it and

hid it in little caches, and then the Indians would

dig the caches up and have some corn . Now, that

9 3
large groups to Washington to meet with the assistant chief deputy, Chief of Engineers, and myself,

and others in arguing their position, and they had

tape recorders all down the table . They knew what

was said after it was over . They had a record .

They weren't stupid, I'll tell you .

Q : You once thought of transferring Oahe Dam from

Omaha District to Garrison . Why did you want to do

this?

A : I guess that goes back to attempting to reestablish

or keep our Garrison District . I think that was

the Garrison District . Garrison was getting near

completion and Oahe was getting started, and might

just as well have them under one aegis up there .

Q : You had some engineering problems . One was at Oahe

Dam with some fractured shale material being pushed

up . Do you recall that particular problem?

A : Well, there were lots of problems up there that

were very important . Shale is a very unstable

material, but it's also plastic material and the

only thing you'd have to worry about is getting

away from the abutments . One of the problems at

Garrison, we had to dig out part of the abutment,

oh, what's this low-grade coal that the Dakotas are

just full of? You know the stuff I mean . It's a

low-grade bituminous coal with about two-thirds of

the Btu as regular bituminous coal . But in excavating the abutments and foundation at Garrison,

this stuff was going to be dug out and, you know,

disposed of . But somebody got in the act . It was

a very valuable material, so we had to put it in

the place where the floodwaters, the waters of the

dam, would cover it and save it for future

generations .

We had very serious problems with the penstocks at,

I think, Fort Randall, where the design was improper and we had to step--

Q : Well, Fort Randall, in fact, was going to be my

next question . You tried to put huge iron tubes

through

9 4

was part of the deal, finally, that was arrived at,

not by me, but by the Congress . These things were

put down there to raise the price of that land . It

was very frustrating negotiating . The Indians sent
the dam to carry the water flow, and there was some

difficulty with the welding procedures on those

tubes .

A : Well, the design of those tubes, penstocks, was by

a very preeminent, prominent Boston engineering

company . The penstocks were very large . I think

they were 15 feet in diameter, something like that,

and an inch-and-a-half thick . They were carrying

huge volumes of water under considerable pressure .

And the methodology of welding them had to be followed extremely carefully . I mean, you welded here

and you welded there . Nevertheless, in welding

them, serious cracks developed . They were going to

be reinforced anyhow, I mean, they were going to be

encased in concrete with reinforcing in the concrete . To my horror, I discovered that on the

plans, the construction plans for these penstocks,

the engineering firm had put, "While we've designed

these, it should be a requirement of the contractor

to confirm that the design is all right," words to

that effect . I wanted to sue them because we hired

them to design it .

Q :

So, we got some university professors in the act,

and the reinforcing that was going to be required

was greatly in excess of the original design . In

order to assure the safety of the penstocks, they

were rewelded and the cracks repaired .

Q : Were they rewelded in place?

A : Yes . We put in an enormous amount of additional

reinforcing and put in a lot more concrete around

them . And the problem was there was so much of the

space taken by the big, square bars around that we

had to be sure that at least they were far enough

apart to get the concrete around them . I got very

disturbed that this engineering firm would do that

and not be responsible for their design because

they gave themselves an out by stamping that thing

on all the drawings about penstocks . It was Fort

Randall, as I remember .

Do you recall some safety problems at Gavin's

Point ; poor contractor safety?

A : No . Gavin's Point, the big big day there was the

closing of the Missouri River . That was quite a

95
9 6

thing . See, the dam was all built, but the river

was being run around one end of it while it was

being built . And the time came when the dam was

finished, and we had to close the Missouri River

and make it go through the outlet works . And we

really had everybody in the world there . Secretary

Brucker came, of course all the governors came, the

Chief was there, and Life magazine . And . I had an

airplane, a DC-3 . It was my second one ; Chorpening

wrecked the other one .

Q : You mean it actually crashed?

A : Yes .

Q : Was there any loss of life?

A : Oh, no . It was just enough to make the plane no

good . So, I went around or sent around to various

airfields, storage fields, where they had lots of

planes--oh, gad, the number of planes that were on

these fields was stupendous . I could have had a

B-24 if I had wanted it . But, we found another

DC-3 and brought it to Omaha, and gradually my pilots started to improve the interior to be a flying

clubhouse again . But it hadn't been finished when

these people came, and it was hotter than hell .

And they all came into Omaha and then we flew them

up to Yankton . And the closure started, and it

took us close to 24 hours . Well-organized, big

caravans of trucks with earth and rock, and just

kept piling it in and piling it in, and gradually

strangling the river . You always wonder if it's

going to succeed, but it did succeed . And the

closure was made upstream from the dam so that we

could come back in later and put in a. competent

engineering structure closure of earthwork at the

abument end . But it was in Life magazine .

Q : You must not have sent that article in your collection up at West Point .

A : I think I have it somewhere .

Q : Do you recall the Blue Valley ladies?

A : Oh, yes .

Q : Can you tell us about that?
A : Those darlings . Well, Tuttle Creek was the first

dam on the Kansas River, and it was the most

important dam on the Kansas River, just above

Manhattan . And it was our prime project after the

war to get started . But, if caused more hassle

than almost any other project I've ever had anything to do with . There was total organization of

people opposed to it . Part of it being an old

cemetery there and they used a little old church

that was there, and the farmers didn't want to lose

their land . And the organization was so good that

they even prepared a movie, and it starts out by

showing these heavy military boots walking over the

people . That's how the thing starts out . They

were showing this film all over . It was obvious

that I was the soldier with the boots, though it

never quite indicated that .

And, as I told you before, they went out to see

President-elect Eisenhower to ask him to vitiate

the project when he got in . We finally got some

starting money and, as I remember, the next year we

didn't get any money . I mean, they were strong

enough, but finally we got enough to restart it and

finish the thing . And if there's anything that's

popular in Manhattan and in that area, it's that

lake . Oh, they think it's the greatest thing in

the world .

Q : Do you recall a Mr . Stockwell? I don't have a

first name, but he evidently was opposed to Tuttle,

too .

A : There were people there, and not particularly him,

I remember the name, but there were people there

who wanted it, but didn't dare say they were for

it . They didn't dare because, as I told you,

people wouldn't buy cars from them anymore . It was

emotional, very emotional .

Q : Were there some property acquisition problems to do

with Tuttle Creek?

A : Well, there's always the problem of taking a

farmer's land and the amount you pay for it . We

didn't have in those days the resettlement thing.

I think that's done now, isn't it? If we dispossess people now, we assist them in resettling .

9 7
Q : That

s correct .

A : In those days, that didn't exist, although we did

try to do some of that . Hands-on type of government law or policy did not exist at that time . So,

they were paid handsomely for their farms . But

then of course, and you've got to sympathize with

them, their whole way of life was being disturbed

and maybe their ability to earn a living was disturbed, though farms existed which they could buy

and always could . They knew about these farms .

And people who were in houses were paid handsomely

for thier houses . There was no local organization

to assist them . I think the policies we have today

where we assist in resettlement are very valuable

policies, but I don't think it keeps people from

being against major projects .

Q : Well, what was the primary opposition to Tuttle

Creek, I mean, what was the reason for the

opposition?

A : Old landowners, do-gooder types, you know .

Q : Well, I mean, did they feel that the project was

not a valid project, or was it simply that the land

was being taken?

A : Maybe they questioned the worth of the project .

See, the Kaw River, as it's called in Kansas, has

many tributaries, and there's another dam named

Milford higher up the stream--I don't remember any

particular problems with that--but the Missouri

below Kansas City is a melding of the Missouri and

the Kansas River . And the Kansas can produce

extremely large floods because it feeds out of the

Rockies, too . And I don't think there are any

Bureau of Reclamation projects up at the top .

They're all ours in Kansas . We had total support

from the Kansas City communities, both Kansas City

and Kansas, also Topeka .

Q : Is the Tuttle dam on the Kaw River?

A : No .

Q : It's on the Blue .

A : It's on a tributary .

98
Q : The Blue River?

A : The Blue River, yes .

Q : Do you recall any particular problems with the Soil

Conservation Service regarding Tuttle Creek Dam?

A : Well, the policy or the statements of the Soil Conservation people, and it may be so now, but at

least then, is that we can prevent floods by good

land practices .

Q : So they felt, also, that the project was necessary?

A : Well, they couldn't have prevented the floods .

Obviously they can't because you can't take care of

a six or seven inch rain, or the floods from the

snow up in the Rockies . You just can't do it . You

see, one of the great storm belts in the United

States is across Nebraska and Iowa . The most

severe thunderstorms I've even been in were here .

Did you know that there are more thunderstorms in

the Orlando area than any other place in the

country?

Q : No, I didn't .

A : Well, it always seemed to me there were more over

Iowa . And, of course, we had many tornadoes and

hurricanes--not hurricanes, but tornadoes . Weather's a severe thing out in that area, and snow gets

awful thick and it melts all of a sudden .

Q : Do you recall any problems with the Souris project

in the northen part of the Missouri River Division?

A : That was an irrigation project in the Dakotas, and

I didn't have very much to do with it .

Q : Do you recall a problem with something called East

bottoms and Williston?

A : Oh, yes .

Q Could you explain that to me?
100

A : I think that

s one of my great victories . I think it was a levee project, but there was quite a vocal organization in Williston that wanted things and didn't want other things, if you want to put it that way . And I went up there once and attended a

meeting, and they had one of these very vocal types

who headed an organization . He was able to talk,

and he did talk, and he lowered the boom to the

extend possible . And during the course of his

presentation, he turned to me and said, "General

Potter, it's my understanding that the Corps never makes a mistake . Does the Corps ever make a

mistake?" And I said, "We sure do ." And that took

the wind right out of his sail . And afterwards he

said, "You killed my argument when you said that ."

Q : A project you mentioned before in Lincoln was the

Salt-Wahoo project, and one person who was particularly interested in it was a man by the name of

Robert Crosky .

A : Yes .

Q : Can you tell me what the Salt-Wahoo project was and

why Crosky was so interested in it?

A : Well, this is one of divergences of opinion between

ourselves and the Soil Conservation people .

Q : Crosky worked for the Soil Conservation Service?

A : Well, he was sold on that, and it's not a big

stream, but it has quite an effect, I think, on

Lincoln . And it was a serious problem to get something done within the constraints of an economic

feasibility study . We did work on a plan . The

District Engineer in Omaha was very valuable in

working that out . It was in his District, of

course . The District Engineers did a lot of this

hand holding, and I only got in when it was necessary to show my advanced years, et cetera .

Q : It was a levee?

A : Canalization and levee project .

Q : And Crosky felt what, it was not necessary?

A : I think, I really remember that we had great
argument with the Soil Conservation Service out

there .

Q : There was a delay in Fort Peck construction during

the time that you were MRD Division Engineer . Do

you recall that delay and why it occurred?

A : Well, the only thing I had to do there was the

second powerhouse . And it may have been funding,

but I really don't remember .

Q : Decatur Bridge in Iowa was a dry land bridge, and

it was a subject of rather extensive newspaper

coverage .

A : Well, you know, it's fascinating, and to the newspaper man that's a great thing, you know, building

a bridge on dry land . And I think it was eventurally named the Mormon Bridge . It's north of

Omaha .

Q : Yeah, it would be .

A : Do you know that Omaha and Council Bluffs across

the river were the places that the Mormons stopped

on their trek to the West for at least one winter,

maybe two? There's a big Mormon cemetery north of

Omaha, which is kept just like a park . They're

great people .

Q : Well, was this Decatur Bridge a bridge that

resulted from a cutoff in the Missouri?

A : Yes, a straightening in the Missouri .

Q : Are you diffentiating between a cutoff and a

straightening?

A : Well, it was sort of a cutoff, yes . There was a

big meander up there as I remember . We built on

dry land and then directed the river under .

Q : Was there a particularly long period of time

between--

A : Oh, yes, because as I remember that bridge was

privately funded, and the financial geniuses behind

that had a great interest in it, of course . And

the placement of that bridge, the development of
g time .

Q : Yes . So, that's probably what attracted the newspaper coverage .

A : Yes, it took a long time before we got appropriations to move the river .

Q : We already mentioned the Fort Berthold Indians by

the Oahe Reservoir . Did you have similar problems

with land acquisitions and so forth when dealing

with the Cheyenne and the Standing Rock Sioux

Indians?

A : Always . They all were the same . Long, long negotiations, appraisals developed as we were required

to, and then the overriding of those appraisals by

the Congress .

Q : I want to again go through our personality profiles

here .

A : Okay .

Q :

A :

102

We've already mentioned some of these . The Chief

of Engineers during

Sturgis . What was

Sturgis?

the time was General Sam

your impression of General

He was a great guy . Really he was . I think, even

though he was related to the Pillsburys and pretty

well off, you know, he was still a farmer at
heart . He almost acted like a farmer at heart .

But, he had a place in, I believe, in Wisconsin

that they used to go to in the summers . And one

day he called me up and says, "Why don't you and

10 3

Ruthie get on the plane, come over here and spend a

long weekend with us ." Very personable and a great

friend of mine . I admired him to no end . And

because of his looks and approach, this farmer

approach, you know--did you ever see him?

Q : I've seen pictures of him .

A : Yes . He was a great success with the Congress .

Q : How about Keith Barney?

A : Keith Barney followed me as Division Engineer of

the Missouri River Division . A very fine man . I

don't think he's forceful, I didn't think he was

very forceful . I never saw him in action, but he

followed the policies of the Division and the Chief

very well, and I think he was quite successful out

there .

Q : Gerald Galloway?

A : Oh, fine guy, just a fine guy . I've known Jerry,

oh, all my life .

Q : You know he just died .

A : I know he did, yes . His son is in the Army and

doing very well, I hear .

Q : He's up at West Point .

A : Yes . Jerry, a very personable Irish guy, a great

deal like Casey in that way, I think . Have you

talked to him?

Q : No, I haven't talked to Casey personally .

A : About Galloway, I mean .

Q : Oh, Galloway, no .

A : But a good New York Irishman . A great friend of

Tim Mulligan, who died right after the war .

Respect him very much .
Tommy Hayes is an extrovert . Likes to run his own

show . Is capable, very capable of running his own

show . Very thoughtful, sort of a brilliant guy .

He finally got to be Division Engineer in Atlanta .

Now he heads a big engineering firm out in

California . No, I respect Tommy to no end . Tommy

is not the greatest subject of supervision because,

like myself, he liked to run with his own ball . I

104

Q : You made some point, I think, in one of your

letters or somewhere along the line, that General

Galloway worked out very well in MRD becaue of his

religion as a Catholic .

A : Why I'd say that, I don't know . I don't remember

Omaha as being highly Catholic . I really don't .

Q : Lawrence Lincoln?

A : Yeah, there're two Lincolns . Little Abe [Lawrence

J . Lincoln] and Big Abe [George A . Lincoln] . Both

of those Lincoln boys are top drawer, very top

drawer .

Q : Did you have much to do with them?

A : No, not professionally .

Q : Colonel Hubert Miller, Omaha District Engineer?

A : A nice competent man .

Q : Was he a good District Engineer?

A : Oh, I think so . He was a believable type . He went

from there down to Texas and did something with

flood control down there .

Q : Colonel Ernest C . Adams, Acting District Engineer

in Kansas City?

A : I always liked him very much . What happened to

him, I don't know . In fact at one time I considered having him come to the [Panama] Canal, I

mean that's how much I respected him . A little

fellow, but active .

Q : What about Tommy Hayes?

A : Oh, yes . Tommy Hayes is a different type entirely .
always felt that probably I was the only guy who

could do that properly, but we got along fine and

we're good friends . .

Q : Let's turn our attention to some civilians in MRD .

In Omaha District, can you comment on Jerry

Ackerman and Ed Soucek?

A : Soucek . Jerry Ackerman, a superb Engineer . Worked

very well with Wendell Johnson, who was chief of

the engineering division . As a matter of fact he

occupied prominent positions in the Society of

[American] Military Engineers for several years . A

damn good Engineer . Soucek I don't remember that

well .

Q : George Evans? He was the resident engineer at Fort

Randall .

A : Oh, yes . A very competent guy . I don't know how I

can say other than what I'm saying about some of

these . He was a rather tall fellow . Did a damn

good job, had control of the project, and ran the

project .

Q : He evidently was a very much admired person .

A : He was . He was popular as the dickens .

Q : How about Harry C . Pool?

A : Oh, Harry Pool was, as I remember, chief of personnel at MRD . He died while I was there, and he

was a very good Catholic . Buried in Kansas City .

Likable guy . He was close to retirement when he

had a stroke and died . Sort of an upper, long-term

employee of the Corps . Traditional .

Q : Yeah . Over 34 years .

A : Traditional type .

Q : Let's turn our attention to some of the politicians

you had to work with . Sig Anderson, South Dakota

governor . You evidently were on very good terms

with him, a first name basis, and so forth .

A : Well, with all of them, I was always on a first

name basis . I don't have any other comments on him .

Q : How about Val Peterson, South Dakota governor?

10 5
nonpareil . I mean, he was great .

10 6

A : Oh, yes . He's quite a guy . I'm very fond of him .

Q : Do you have anything bad to say about these people?

A : I will .

Q : Okay . Clarence Brundsdale, North Dakota governor?

A : There's one of the great men I ever knew . He was a

real farmer, a real farmer . He got elected because

he was a farmer, I think . Of course, North

Dakota's a small state population-wise . But we

kept up our relationship for long after he finished

being governor . He went back to his farm in

eastern North Dakota . Oh, I guess we were on as

close a relationship as our distance would permit .

Q : Was he involved somehow with this Williston

project? Do you recall some action--

A : The trouble--the fact that he was governor there,

caused him to put the interest to me, I mean the

comments to me . I remember that .

Q : How about Richard Baumhauf? He was a writer for

the St . Louis Post Dispatch .

A : Oh, yes . Usually against everything . A critical

writer . I was not especially fond of him . He did

a job as a writer, you know . In newspaper reporting, if you write, eulogies about people, the newspaper won't be read . You got to be against things .

Q : Willard J . Breidenthal, President of the Riverview

State Bank, and evidently very much involved with

Kansas City flood control?

A : He really was the leader of the flood control

effort on the Missouri River in the lower part of

the basin . I can't think of anybody who was more

respected . He lived in Kansas City, Kansas, that's

where his home was, but the people of Kansas City,

Missouri, respected him totally . I used to travel

with him . I went to Chicago with him once on a

land acquisition problem of the Corps . A country

banker in a middle-sized city, but he knew things .

He knew how to organize, and the respect he had was
Q : A person who I don't really know except by name,

Harry Darby from Kansas City?

A : Yes, sir . Harry Darby at one time was an appointed

senator . He filled somebody's term . Whether he

ever ran for reelection or not, I don't know . He

was head of the Cattlemen's Association . He had a

steel fabricating business . Extremely handsome and

personable . He was the guy who every year when

they had the big brouhaha in Kansas City down at

the big cattle emporium, whatever it was, he was

always the head man there who made the speeches,

the emcee, and he kept that up . I think he's

probably still alive .

But the people in Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas,

were people of influence . I don't know how much

you know about that place but Kansas City once had

a man named Pendergast there, and he was about as

unprincipled as they came . And they finally formed

a citizens' association . Now Darby would not have

been in this because he lived in Kansas City,

Kansas, although I imagine he was a great help .

But a man by the name of Jack Gage, who I think was

a lawyer too, organized this citizens' association,

and they're the ones who threw Pendergast out .

They also changed the total complexion of the city

council . And they're the ones who hired Perry

Cookingham as city manager . And the city turned

around from being vice-ridden, and I mean viceridden, and a totally political complex with rather

questionable ways of operating . You bought your

jobs, you bought your contracts, all that sort of

thing . But Harry Darby is the type who with Jack

Gage, Willard Breidenthal, Massman, and others,

turned that city around from the Pendergast era to

a city that has grown greatly .

Q : Do you recall Howe S . Davies, President of the

Minot Daily News ?

A : I went up to Minot several times when I was there .

It had to do with the Minot Air Force Base, military construction . I knew him [Davies] quite

well . He's quite a guy . Ran a good newspaper .

Q : Was he rough on you?

A : I don't think so . See we had no civil works

10 7
from improving the Missouri River under the lowermost bridge, St . Charles, down in that area . He

108

projects up there . We weren't taking any land

except his airbase .

Q : Brigadier General Joe Foss, governor of North

Dakota?

A : I knew him well . He's quite a guy . He was in the

Marine Corps--finally got the Medal of Honor, you

know . I think he got elected governor because of

his war record, but he was a good governor and I

enjoyed him to no end .

Q : Was he a bit of a populist type of governor?

A : I can't remember that .

Q : Roman Hruska, Nebraska senator?

A : Yes . He and I kept up a relationship almost until

he died . Another farmer type . But a good politician . There was another senator there who I didn't

appreciate that much, but I was very fond of Hruska .

Q : [Carl] Curtis?

A : Curtis, yes . I wasn't too fond of him . He was a

political animal of sorts . But [Kenneth S .] Wherry

was from up there too, you know . Senator Wherry,

father of the Wherry Housing Act, you know .

Q : William G . Sloan, Bureau of Reclamation?

A : I met him and conversed with him, but I didn't know

him that well .

Q : Chan Gurney, South Dakota senator?

A : Oh, great guy . They were from Yankton . Chan was a

real politician, very personable, understanding,

well-meant, that sort of thing .

Q : Clarence Cannon, Missouri congressman?

A : He was different . He was not for us generally .

He'd been in the Congress a hell of a long time,

and he was acid--you didn't handshake him . You

didn't flamboozle him . For instance, he kept us
Q :

kept us from improving levees and straightening the

river and all that sort of stuff . He was a tough

cookie . I didn't get along with him too well . Of

course, he was chairman of the Appropriations committee, but I dealt with the subcommittee for Civil

Works . We had a chairman the first couple times I

appeared there from either North or South Carolina,

a real southerner . And I used to think he went to

sleep during the hearings . He had a staff that

would always feed all the members the most awful

questions to ask me . But, one time a question was

asked and I thought he was dozing there . I forget

my exact comment, but it was a little derogatory of

the peannut subsidy . And he said, "All right,

colonel, strike two projects from your budget ."

[laughter]

I would like to know about a man I can't identify,

but he appears in your letters, Everett Winter .

A : Oh, yes . Everett Winter was the head of the

Missouri Valley Association . That association

coordinated all civic activities, with respect to

work in the Missouri Valley and on the Mississippi

Q :

Herald .

A : A very, very dear friend . My two daughters grew up

with his daughters . He's visited us here since . A

golfer who married a rich man's daughter . The rich

man headed the Omaha newspaper, what's the name of

it?

Q : World Herald .

A : World Herald . And he was a real tough cookie . You

see, Senator [Gilbert] Hitchcock, way back when,

had formed that newspaper and Mr . Doorley married

one of his daughters . When the senator died, he

took over the newspaper and ran it . A very

charming guy . His wife died a couple of years ago

and he's since remarried .

Q : Does he live in Omaha still?

A : He has a place down on Marco Island, but I think he

10 9

River . They covered the whole basin . A very

powerful association, and Everett did a damn good

job of operating it, running it .

Ben Cowdery, managing editor of the Omaha World
lives in Omaha, too . He stayed with us a couple of

years ago . Came up over Thanksgiving .

Q : How about Harry Strunk?

A : Yes . Harry Strunk from McCook, huh?

Q : Yes .

A : What a guy . I used to go pheasant hunting with him . A down-to-earth fellow, totally approved of Corps of Engineers work, sort of a spearhead on the Harlan County Dam though it was a long way from McCook . What other interests he had, I don't know, but I remember once he called me up there . They

were having an Indian celebration and he wanted me to be in the parade . And son of a gun, I drove up

there . That's the time my black chauffeur couldn't

find a place to stay and had to spend the night in

jail . The sheriff let him sleep in one of the

cells during the night . As I say, I used to go pheasant hunting up there with him .

Q : Do you know what his job was?

A : Newspaper .

Q : What was Senator Francis Case like?

A : Something like Curtis .

Q : He had some particular interest in the James River?

A : Yes . what it was I can't remember, but he was a

questioning sort of fellow . Not the easiest one to

get along with .

Q : Peter Kiewit?

A : Oh, a very great friend of mine .

Q : When did you first meet him?

A : In Omaha . This was a one-man company that became

one of the largest construction companies in, I

guess, the world, but at least in the United

States . He eventually became Assistant Secretary

of Defense .
Q : You did say, though, that you met with Mr . Kiewit

while you were director of Civil Works--

A : Well, I must have met him before that--see, his

office is in Omaha?

Q : Right . So you only became friendly with him when

you moved to Omaha?

A : Yes . How he ran that empire . He ran it like the

Corps of Engineers . He had Districts with District

Engineers and that sort of thing . He got an enormous amount of work under General Pick building

camps, and that's where he really got going . He

understood mass construction . He once called me

and asked me to come over to his office and he

said, "You know, my people think that I should go

into a PR program for our company ." And he said,

"You know, nobody knows about me . I've always

stayed in the background," et cetera . "Do you

think I should have a PR program?" And I told him

no . He didn't need it . In the profession, he was

well known . He didn't have to be known in the

newspapers and all that sort of stuff .

Why he took that job as Deputy Secretary of

Defense, I don't know . I don't know whether he

enjoyed it or not either . He only died a year or

so ago .

Q : Right . Were you keeping up contact with him until

his death?

A : Peripherally . Through friends we'd get back and

forth to each other .

Q : Okay . You indicated to Governor Anderson that the

reservoir control center had as one of its purposes

serving decision making within the Missouri Basin

Interagency Committee Authority . Do you remember

anything about this reservoir control center?

A : I established it in Omaha . I set up a room and had

the boys design the controls . It had to be done

more or less by telephone . That's where I could

keep track of the situation on all the dams on the

Missouri . How many gates were open, how much water

was coming out of 'them, how much electricity was

being generated . And through that control center,

we were able to integrate the whole system . It was
important when water came out of Fort Peck, whether

or not it was going to be too much for Garrison, or

whether Garrison needed more . The philosophy of

the Missouri Basin dams was that water was used

five times on the way down to generate electricity,

and that we had a bulk of storage in all of these

dams . And since the amount of electricity you get

out depends upon the elevation of the water in any

one reservoir--the height you have gives you more

efficiency, of course--that it was essential to

monitor these flows and control these flows so that

we got the greatest result . And at the same time,

maintain the capability in the spring after the

floods and after we stored our water, to let

something like 30,000 cubic feet a second out of

Gavin's Point for navigation and the rest of the

river's operation .

A : You're damn right .

Q : Could you explain what you meant by that?

So, I established that thing and we got it

started . The bureau didn't have something similar,

and we had nothing to do with their dams except

when one of their dams was letting water out, we

had to know about it as far as Fort Randall was

concerned . I think it's still in operation, but I

imagine it's all electronic now and computerized,

and orders can be given easily .

Q : Does it work, I suppose, in association with the

Waterways Experiment Station?

A : No, no . Upriver floods we can control pretty darn

well with those reservoirs without using spillways .

Q : You wrote to Colonel Barney on his assuming the

position of Kansas City District Engineer, that the

political situation there in Kansas City was

extremely complex, and he should lay low for a bit

and learn the ropes, so to speak .

A : Well, the organization that did away with [Thomas]

Pendergast, as I told you, was not totally accepted

by the displaced people . And there were several

years after I left, of course, when these other

people who had run the city the other way were able

to elect a city councilman . And for the last two
or three years of Perry Cookingham's tenure as city

manager, and he was one of the great city managers

of all time, he was the dean of city managers, he

was in there by a five to four vote . And then all

of a sudden they elected somebody from the one of

the districts who were against him, and there was a

four to five vote and Perry left . That sort of

thing existed there . There were the old-time

Pendergast guys in Kansas City who, business-wise,

adapted to the new regime and not only had to, but

liked it . They found out it was to their good that

things were operating on the up and up . So, my

warning to Keith was, please find out who the

people are and I'll help you all I can before you

start taking sides on anything .

Q : Do you recall anything about the Union Electric

Company of Missouri getting involved with MRD

projects?

A : Yes . Union Electric is in St . Louis, isn't it?

And, there was a dam up one of the rivers that they

owned and operated but it had flood control capac

ity, too, and it wasn't too good a dam . And we

wanted to build another dam on that same river and

that's the one I told you about that, because of

dissension, we had to, after I left, change its

position and its height and its capacity . But they

were involved in that sort of thing because they

wanted the ability to generate all the electricity

they could hydroelectrically .

Q : Do you recall any particular problems with the

building of a veteran's hospital in Kansas City?

A : Oh, yes . At the end of the war, the Veterans'

[Administration] was put under General [Paul R .]

Hawley, who didn't come up in the hierarchy, and

the Corps of Engineers was put in charge of

building new hospitals . One that was proposed for

Kansas City was to have been close to a 1,000-bed

hospital . And I was told to get the design under

way . I selected a local architect, but I was

requested also to include another architect from, I

think, Cincinnati, which I'll never do again . I

mean you cannot combine two architects to do one

project . There was an enormous amount of

dissension between the two of them .

The state of the art in hospitals at that time was
a lot different than it is today . And the

Veterans' [Administration] didn't particularly like

the Corps of Engineers designing their hospitals .

And there were changes and impossibilities of getting approvals . For instance, you may not remember, but air conditioning was invented during the

war . And I had proposed that we provide that this

hospital be air conditioned . And the VA said, "No,

that passes germs around . You'll get germs all

over the place if you have air conditioning ." But,

anyhow, instead of a general hospital with 1,000

beds, as I remember it ended up as a 200-bed tuberculosis hospital . Now, I may be wrong, but it was

radically changed, and a very unpleasant experience

as far as I was concerned . But, you could not get

approvals on various things . We planned so that

the nursing stations would see down the corridors,

and that was all radically changed because that

wasn't the way they worked it . It was a tough

job . I won't do another one except with one

architect and me in charge .

Q : While you were Division Engineer, you wrote that

the Omaha people were so used to working on their

big dams that they'd forgotten their planning

work . Care to comment?

A : Well, did I say "on big dams," or --

Q : "On-their big dams ."

A : Oh, well, that refers to the District, I think .

Q : It's referring to Omaha District .

A : Well, every District has a considerable amount of

survey reports to do . I suppose you still do survey reports . And those were receiving, as I remem

ber, less than top priority, and the department in

charge of them was not well staffed . These reports

are the basis of our future, as you know . A survey

report finally leads to an authorization .

Q : You felt that they were doing inferior work on the

planning side?

A : Well, they were devoting to building the dams and

that's a hell of a big job, as you know . Everybody

would be centered on that kind of work rather than
Q : No .

A : It's a gathering of statistics and so on .

Q : Well, was that a comment on one particular division's work, the Planning Division, presumably?

A : Yes, I think so, yes .

Q : This is a philosophical problem as well as an engineering one, but let me ask you it anyway . Could

you have any viable amount of navigation on the

Missouri River without bank stabilization? How

important is bank stabilization to navigation?

A : Before the big dams, of course, navigation depended

upon continuing runoff of the river, and sometimes

that got awfully low and navigation was very poor .

Navigation on the Mississippi was always a success

because of the waters of the Ohio and the upper

Mississippi and the Missouri put in, though it's

not a success this month, is it?

Q : No .

on the mundane things . A survey report is not the

most fun in the world .

A : The water's way down . That's strange, too . The

Missouri River, like the Mississippi, is a meandering river . Naturally it wants to meander . It's

all in soil, very little rock, except in very few

places, so it meanders just like the Mississippi .

It has big ox bows and bends and so on .

Way back when, they started a bank stabilization

project on the Missouri River which at least gave

the pilots an opportunity to know where the channel

was . And that work, I think, continues to this

day . Armoring the bank, replacing revetments, and

installing groins, piles, you know . But the

Missouri River nagivation was never too highly successful because of the shallow draft of the vessels

that had to use it . It's the big dams upstream

that maintained a 30,000-cubic-feet-a-second flow

out of Gavin's Point, I think that's the figure,

that gave them that security . Whether it's built

up or not, I don't know . But we used to get quite

a bit of navigation all the way up to Omaha, and
Q

one of the cargoes that always amazed me was molasses, which they mixed with straw and fed to the cattle . They fooled the cattle into thinking the straw is something else . But an enormous amount of molasses used to come upstream to Kansas City and especially to Omaha .

Q : Well, would there be significant deterioration of the river without the bank stabilization?

A : Oh, it would go to pot . And also, you've got to

remember that even while I was there and before all the works were completed, the law of the land is that if the river takes a man's farm, he ain't got

no farm no more . If he's got one foot left, and

then the river builds it back up, he's still got

some farm . But if he loses all of his land, he has

lost his farm . And if it builds up across the

river, he doesn't own that farm across the river .

The fellow to whose land the river accreted more

land, that's his bigger farm . And the law of that is quite specific . So really bank stabilization

has a secondary and equally prominent purpose of

protecting the farmers, protecting their land .

You were very opposed to any kind of a piecemeal

approach to bank stabilization . Can you explain

why you were opposed to this piecemeal approach?

A : Oh, I just wanted to get the job done . I mean, it

never looked large on any program because the dams

were bigger and the levees were bigger and all

that, but bank stabilization was really the life

blood of agriculture there along the river . If you

don't have any land, it doesn't do you any good, of

course . But I wanted to make sure that these farmers were protected .

Q : Was the Veatch report the same as what is called

more technically, the "Report on Flood Protection

in Kansas River Basin Prepared for the Kansas

A : Veatch is the engineering firm .

Q : Veatch was the engineering firm . It created a fair

Industrial Development Commission"? Is that the

same? This report was submitted in May 1953 . It

was signed by Abel Wolman, Louis Rittison, and N .

T . Veatch, and for some reason it became known as

the Veatch report .
amount of concern, evidently, on the part of the

Corps . Can you explain what this report said and

what the concern was?

A : It was a denigration of the Corps plan to provide

flood control on the Kansas River .

Q : What does it suggest in place of it?

A : Nothing . I can almost say nothing . I mean, it was

generated to show that a flood control plan on the

Kansas River wasn't necessary . And I think our

friend McDonald had to do with that .

Q : What did the Corps do to try and fight this plan?

A : Generated an enthusiasm on our side in the local

people .

Q : Was there publicity in the papers and so forth?

A : Maybe for a little while . I may have answered it

to some degree . We did not revise our plans in any

way whatsoever, and our dams did go ahead . I sort

of lost my respect for Mr . Veatch after that

because he's a very competent engineer, his firm's

still going, but I sort of believe in the purity of

the profession . And our Kansas Basin report, of

course, subject to analysis and comment, but it

couldn't have been totally wrong, which is more or

less what that report said .

Q : General Potter, you had the opportunity last night

to look at some letters I gave you that go back to

your days as MRD Division Engineer . I'm wondering

if any of those letters may have jogged your memory

on some issues?

A : Oh, minor things now, but major things probably

then . There was a considerable argument with the

Asphalt Institute as to using asphalt on runways

for the major bomber commands of SAC and other Air

Force installations . It's readily recognized that

jet fuel dissolves asphalt, and the problem was to

make sure the runways were [adequate] at all

times . The resolution came, as I remember, that we

would make the ends of the runway--from where a

plane was taking off and when it was discharging

maximum amounts of fuel--out of concrete, and the

middle section of the runways out of asphalt . All
pads around the hangars and so on had to be of

concrete because that's where the fuel was spilled

in loading . It was one of those things that had to

have both sides presented to you and, of course,

the Air Force, I think, made the final decision to

build them in the way we described .

The other one my memory was jogged on a bit, was

the Souris project, which was a big irrigation project up in the Dakotas . It impinged upon the Missouri Basin plan because water would be required

for that irrigation . I know it had a lot of argument going on about it for several years . What the

solution was, I really don't remember except to the

Bureau of Reclamation and the farmers up there, it

was a very important project .

Q : Do you recollect anything more about this

controversy with General Itschner about relocation?

A : Oh, yes . You can readily understand why I became

upset . When we build dams, we make reservoirs, and

those reservoirs go up the tributaries . And some

times, in some cases quite a long ways . And in

doing that, in filling the reservoir, you, of

course, do away with roads that crossed what used

to be pristine farmland and also you disrupt roads

that go across those tributaries . It always has

been the policy of the Corps and the government,

the Bureau of Reclamation and others, to relocate

transportation facilities so that people can still

communicate easily . Now, the argument came from

the fact that in'many cases these roads, and especially the bridges, and the argument was about

bridges, were of let's say 20-foot width, which was

an acceptable width way back when they were built .

But the government from time to time widens bridges

to facilitate traffic and cut down accidents and

all that sort of thing, and when we came to

relocate bridges around the reservoirs on the upper

basin, a policy was enunciated to which I strongly

objected that we would pay for a bridge of similar

width . Well, that was, to my way of thinking,

asinine because the bridge would not be accepted by

the government, what is it--the Department of

Transportation, whoever it is that has to do with

roads, federal Bureau of [Public] Roads, something

like that--and because they would not accept it as

a bridge on a federal road or on a federally

supported maintained road . The bridges would have
Q :

to be up to the standards that existed . And so I

objected strongly to the rather narrow view that

was enunciated to only pay for the narrower bridge

that existed .

Q : Oh, I see . Did any of those letters bring back any

more about Tuttle Creek, that controversy?

A : Oh, it was an ongoing and bitter controversy until

the reservoir really got going . And, as I told

you, the people there were just happy as a dickens

with the reservoir as a playground . And it brought

a lot of business there, you know, motorboats and

restaurants and all that sort of thing . It's an

admired facility in the Manhattan area of Kansas,

as is Milford and all the other dams up the Kaw

River .

Q : What would you say, General Potter, were your biggest challenges as Division Engineer?

A : Well, there are several that any Division Engineer

has to face up to . Especially in the Midwest, the

Corps of Engineers is an imprtant organization in

every state upon which it impinges . As a result,

it is necessary to deal with and relate to and

hand-hold the politicians, not only the federal

representatives and senators, but also the governors and the governors' departments . So, a large

part of the business of a Division Engineer is

travelling and meeting with those people, finding

out what their problems are, trying to ameliorate

any discussions that are taking place . I guess you

would call that the political aspect of being Division Engineer .

The technical aspects are not especially severe

because the Corps of Engineers is one of the most

remarkable organizations that exist in this world .

And the method of reacting to the Congress for

survey reports which, in some cases, lead to

authorizations of projects and then to appearing

before the Appropriations committee, the Bureau of

the Budget, getting approval by the President for

the year's budget, and building the project--they

are more or less routine . Of course, there are

always problems technically that you'll discover in

foundations and things like that .

On 6 September 1956, after you had already left

MRD, you wrote a letter to General Pick, who had
also retired by then, and it concerned General

Itschner, who had just been appointed the new Chief

of Engineers following Sturgis . And you write, "I

am sorry that my predictions and feelings about who

would be the next Chief came true . I feel that

with Emma's great propensity to look at details

some of our broader problems might go by the

board . It will be very interesting to see who was

selected to fill the important job of deputy on

both sides of the shop . Of course, you know, that

Jack Person is moving in the Civil Works . I do

feel that Jack and Emma might come to the parting

of the ways someday since Jack does have a rather

progressive view towards how fast and far we should

go in our various programs, and, of course the

squabble with Agriculture is going to get much more

severe with their new bill ."

Who was your choice to be Chief of Engineers, do

you recall?

A : Of course, I was not, nor was Pick, in the

selection process . The only reason I would express

any feeling one way or another is that when the

time comes to select a Chief of Engineers, all the

senior officers of the Corps have their candidates

and sometimes feel sad when their candidate is not

selected . I can't remember who I would have liked

to see Chief, but among the people who were very

competent would have been Robby Robinson, who was

Sverdrup's deputy in the Pacific . Personally, he

and I were great friends . Itschner was, and, I

presume, still is a detail man . He had to go into

the details of design of dams, the size of bolts,

et cetera, and every night when he went home they

could hardly make a briefcase big enough to carry .

He reviewed everything as if he were running every

department . He, I don't think, is what you'd call

a staff-oriented person . A normal organization,

the kind that I like to operate, is one where the

head of the organization selects his staff

officers, delegates authority to them, receives

their reports, and listens to both sides and then

makes a decision . But, I've worked with and for

people on the other side of the picture who have to

know every little detail . Despite these personal

characteristics, I feel that Itschner was a very

competent Chief of Engineers .

12 0
Now, he did balance his organization by having Jack

Person in Civil Works . Jack was an outgoing

fellow . A proper type of officer to have in Civil

Works, where you are dealing with politicians

regularly, and by politicians I mean those people

who have an interest in civil works projects .

I don't remember who he had as the chief of Military Operations . I would say, I was probably a

little extravagant in expressing my dismay because

I had nothing to do with it . But I did always keep

in contact with General Pick . As you remember, the

policy requires that the Department of the Army

will send up three names in order of priority, and

the President can select any one of those . When

Pick was selected, the Army sent up three names and

Truman would send them back because it didn't

include General Pick . And finally it was made

quite obvious that they were not going to get a

Chief until Pick's name was on the list . Whether

it went up there in last place, I don't know, but

anyhow he selected him . Of course, Pick was in the

selection process for Sturgis, not Itschner .

Q : Did you confide in General Pick quite a bit and did

General Pick confide in you?

A : Yes, in everything . during the first six months

that he was Chief, the real power structure in the

Chief's office was General Pick, Craig Smyser, and

myself . And we stayed late and met often ; we were

in the Chief's office frequently . We would discuss

things that were coming up or that were up and

arguments that were going on . We would confide in

him and give him our opinions . It was a very

close-knit operation at the beginning . Craig was

his executive assistant sitting outside his door .

And this was a very unpopular thing with many

officers in the Corps, of course .

Q : Before we leave the Missouri River Division here,

do you have any concluding observations or anything

that you may have left that you want to put into

the record?

A : Oh, I was immensely proud of the organization that

was there, and especially of Wendell Johnson, who,

by the way, had been General Stratton's right-hand

assistant in Europe during the war, and had left, I
believe, the Missouri River Division to go over

there and then had come back as chief engineer of

the division . Very astute, calm person, as I said

the other day, it would be a good idea for you to

see him even though he's somewhat incapacitated

from a stroke .

In May 1956, you were appointed the governor of the

Panama Canal Zone for a four-year term . I wonder

if you could give us the background to that appointment, and also if you can tell us how your

experience with the Corps may have been of help to

you as governor of the Panama Canal Zone?

A : Well, I received a call one day from General

Sturgis saying, "How would you like to go to the

Canal Zone as governor?" Normally, the governorgoing up to being governor was a course of going

through the chairs . In the past, an Engineer officer would go down there as assistant Engineer, then

Engineer, then lieutenant governor, and then governor . Those officers served generally for a threeyear term, especially the lieutenant governor . So

there was always a choice of people . I had never

been in that hierarchy, and was of course somewhat

surprised . But, my predecessor had apparently had

some problems . His term was up, by the way . But

he had some problems, and Sturgis wanted somebody

down there who he knew and knew how he would

operate . So, the governor of the Canal Zone has

always been an officer of the Corps of Engineers up

until the treaty . And I was just one of, I forget

whether I was thirteenth or fourteenth or whatever,

but I was appointed by President Eisenhower and

began my term after being sworn in at Washington .

I'd gotten my two stars, oh, almost within minutes

before that . I mean, maybe a week or so before

that . So, when I was sworn in, I was then a

temporary major general .

Q : You were also serving concurrently as president of

the Panama Canal Company?

A : The job has two hats .

Q : Could you explain for us the way in which the government and the Panama Canal Company worked there

together?

A : Let me go back and sort of round out the whole pic12 2
ture about the canal . We got the canal after the

French had failed and after dealings that are very

well described in the book The Path Between the

Seas , which is an excellent book . It describes

everything that happened in the Panama Canal area

from the time that it was even thought of by former

kings of Spain, to graphic descriptions of the

French effort and then the argument that went on--

the negotiations that went on about the French

selling their interest to us . And we, by the same

token, become owners of their franchise and entered

into a treaty with Panama, the 1903 treaty, that

gave us rights in perpetuity to build and operate a

canal and occupy the land "as if we were sovereign," to the entire exclusion of the exercise of

any powers of the government of Panama over that

area .

The canal was successfully built under three different people with General Goethals being the

person who finished it . How he got that job is

very interesting . His predecessor--let me go back

one .

The bill that set up the organization to build the

Panama Canal required the appointment of a

commission, and this commission resided in

Washington . And they stultified any efforts to

make up a really progressive operation in the

construction . This caused Mr . [John] Stevens, I

believe it was, who was really a great man and

devised the plan that really built the canal ; the

excavation plan, the construction plan . He devised

it, but he became so irritated with the controls

that the commission put on him and, in those days

you must remember there were no radios, and things

had to go back and forth by ship and that was a

long time between requests and reply . And things

were proceeding very slowly . He finally told

President Roosevelt that he was going to resign,

and he put it in his letter, as I understand it,

the reasons for it which I just described . And he

sort of thought that President [Theodore] Roosevelt

would do away with the commission or nullify its

powers to some degree, but Roosevelt, on the other

hand, accepted the resignation and said, "I'm going

to appoint a guy that can't quit ." And he

appointed then Colonel [George W .] Goethals to be

in charge, and of course Colonel Goethals completed

12 3
the canal . It was completed in 1914 .

one of the beauties about the canal is that, you

must remember, there never had been locks designed

of the magnitude of the locks on the Panama Canal .

The machinery had to be thought up and argued about

and designed . Lock walls had to hold vital

machinery . It was an innovation that should be one

of the great wonders of the world, probably the

eighth wonder of the world . Now that was finished

in 1914 . That same machinery to a large extent is

still operating in those locks and working in the

canal . And it's due to the fact that there's a

regular maintenance procedure that makes sure that

everything stays in pristine condition, is

replaced, or taken out and repaired . The locks

formerly used to be put out of service in one

lane--there are two lanes of locks--every four

years to go through an intensive maintenance

procedure that lasted three or four months .

They've changed that procedure now to where they

replace gates so that that part of the maintenance

does not have to be done on site . But the fact is

that it continues to operate with that old machinery, it's only old in years . As far as the condition is concerned, it's as new as it was when it

went in the canal back there in 1914 . And there've

never been any major repairs on the locks . To my

knowledge, nothing has ever failed . There have

been some major changes in things that I'll describe in a little bit .

The canal was not built by Panamanians . The canal

was built with U .S . supervision and a large number

of the actual builders were Jamaicans and Hondurans, who were recruited in the islands and came

to the canal and actually built it . Very few

Panamanians to any degree were employed . It was

largely the Caribbean Island-type person, most of

them from islands under the control of the English .

The U .S . citizens, and of course there were lots

and lots of them in supervisory positions, stayed

on after the canal was finished, a great many of

them, because they knew what went in there and they

were capable of operating it . But, it did generate

a problem because they stayed on until they retired, the sons and daughters stayed on and followed their daddies, and in some cases the third

12 4
generation . So what you had there was a group of

people, marvelous people, who knew their job 100

percent, who had narrow experience in the world .

And they did create a problem because they remembered what Daddy said . The canal was built with

what you called a gold and silver payroll . U .S .

citizens were paid in gold and other nations were

paid in silver . And that gold and silver mentality

continued ; it was even extant when I was there .

And, as a result, it was very difficult if not

impossible for other than descendants of these

people or people who came down under contract, to

ever get high in the labor hierarchy . No Panamanian or anybody else could ever get to be a

mechanic, for instance . He could carry the

mechanic's box, but that was about it . I changed

that to some degree when I was there because I

established an apprentice school, and we did bring

a lot of people into the act in higher positions .

It wasn't as severe when I got there as it had

been, but the forcing of the change was a very

difficult, time-consuming, and a hand-holding job .

All of these employees had been raised under the

aegis of my predecessors . The governor was, I

wouldn't say he was the father figure, but he was

in their minds . The governor was a lot more important than he actually was . He was the guy upon

whom they depended and whom they could go to .

General Goethals had a Sunday morning policy :

everybody could come into him and approach him on

any problem that bothered them, every Sunday morning his door was open to meeting with these people

who wanted to come in and talk to him . And that

sort of idea continued . The governor was a person

they could go to as a last resort, and he was

available to listen to them . So, I found myself

really--this may not be the proper way to describe

it, but I think it is--going down and becoming the

head of a principality because the position was a

great deal like that . The governor's house was the

center of activity in the Canal Zone and to a large

degree in Panama also .

Also in the Canal Zone, there was the commanding

general of the Caribbean Command, which covered all

of Latin America ; a major general in charge of the

Air Force ; and a major general for the Army installations, of which there were many ; and an admiral

12 5
in charge of Navy installations of which there was

one or two . The position of the governor with

respect to them was senior . Though it sounds

silly, I got one more gun in my salute than they

did in their salutes .

Financially, there were two organizations there .

There was the government, and the governor was the

head of the government . The government consisted

of the health department, the schools, the police,

and all those things that normally you find in a

government . And the money to supply the government

came from direct appropriations that I budgeted

every year ; went up and met with the Bureau of the

Budget, the Congress and got appropriations to run

the government . The other entity was the company .

And the governor was president of the Panama Canal

Company also . And the Panama Canal Company ran the

business aspects of the canal, and that included

the commissaries, the canal itself, the collection

of tolls, everything having to do with business

came under the company . And so, in effect, there

were two organizations operating in the same headquarters building .

The company had a board of directors . There was

one stockholder for the company and that was the

president . The president delegated his authorities

normally to the Secretary of the Army, who appointed either the Under Secretary or an Assistant

Secretary as a member of the board . The other

members of the board were generally civilians

appointed by the governor . There was no pay in the

job, but they did meet four times a year . Sometimes once in Washington, the other three times in

the Canal Zone with all expenses paid . So, the

company operated just like IBM, in a smaller way of

course, or any other business company . It had

bylaws and all that sort of thing .

The money to support the company came from tolls

from ships that went through . That money was

sufficient to maintain the canal, to operate the

company, but in addition, to repay the appropriated

funds that the government had gotten through direct

appropriations from the Congress . And enough was

left over to pay interest on the debt of the canal,

which was caused by the bonds issued to build it,

bonds and other government expenditures that went

12 6
into building the canal . So, to my way of thinking, it was almost the only government entity that

not only paid its own way, but paid back some of

its indebtedness . Maybe TVA does, but I'm not sure

of that . But, it was fascinating to me to have to

deal with an organization that I could brag about

as far as not being a drain on the federal

government .

I mentioned the fact that the government operated a

school system, and we operated a school system that

started at kindergarten and went up through a junior college . After my departure, the junior college became a full college . I tried to discourage

sons and daughters, long-time family employees,

from continuing their education there . I would

have liked very much to have ameliorated that

business of people staying on and succeeding Daddy

in the canal . And I would not, I don't think, have

approved putting a full college down there because

I wanted to require that they go back up to the

United States and finish their education there, and

maybe find out that it was a better way of life up

there .

Q : Can Panamanian residents go to the junior college?

A : Oh, yes . They could go there . The school system,

on the other hand, was two-pronged . There was a

U .S .-based type of school with curriculum devised

after accredited curricula in the United States for

education for people in any state of the Union .

There was a Panamanian school system to take care

of the Panamanians who lived in the Canal Zone .

There were two kinds of towns in the Canal Zone .

One for local rate and one for U .S . citizens . And

in the local rate towns, there were schools, but

their curriculum was a curriculum approved by the

school system of Panama, the idea being that eventually they might go back over to Panama for jobs

and to the University of Panama, which was quite a

big school . And in order to do that, the curriculum had to be based upon a foundation that would

be approved there .

Now, not all of our employees who were Panamanians

lived in the Canal Zone . A great many lived in

Panama . We did not have housing for everybody . It

was quite an ambitious thing for Panamanians who

were not housed in the Canal Zone to finally get to

12 7
the status where they could get a house in the

Canal Zone . U .S . citizens, by the way, were paid

25 percent, the going rate for similar jobs in the

United States . Schoolteachers and others worked on

contracts, two-year contracts .

Q : Twenty-five percent more?

A : More . In other words, one of the yearly arguments

was that the base we had used to put the 25 percent

on, electricians wanted to use the electrical rate,

I think, of the TVA, which was a similar type of

organization .

Q

The police force, I think, had about 180 police,

and they generally were long-time residents down

there . Daddy had been chief of police and all that

sort of thing . And the fire department, the same

way . I think we had 14 fire stations in the Canal

Zone, which I tried to reduce, and did reduce a

couple . It seemed to me there were too many of

them .

There were many towns that were built and they say

one was local rate--one kind was local rate and the

other type was U .S . citizens . The rents were

established based upon a scale that had something

to do with the cost of the house . We were

continually improving homes there . There was

almost an annual drawing for houses . Seniority

came at the top . And when somebody would leave the

Canal Zone, sen- iority determined who got the

vacant house . The Canal Zone maintained all

landscaping, mowed the lawns, kept the streets

clean, painted the houses, reroofed them, had

everything to do with the out- side of the house,

and that was furnished free also . But it kept the

canal as a thing of beauty . It was just a

beautiful place .

Now, if you have any questions about what I've said

so far, because we can have another hour's lecture .

No, sir . I, of course, have some other questions

about the Canal Zone experience . Maybe--

A : I have lots of experience down here .

Q : Maybe the thing to do is to let you go ahead and

talk, and then I can follow up with some questions

12 8
later on . I wanted to, of course, talk about your

duties as governor of the Canal Zone, and I also

want to get back to the question of whether your

specific Corps experience was valuable for your

work as Canal Zone governor ; whether it was more

important just having a good administrator down

there rather than having a person from the Corps of

Engineers .

Well, it was a job that the Corps cherished, of

course . And it was the ambition of a great many

people to go to the canal, and there were always

people coming down there--officers coming down

there who came in as assistant Engineers, and then

Engineers, aspiring to be lieutenant governor

perhaps, and later on become governor . And that

did happen in a great many cases . Governor [David

S .] Parker had been lieutenant governor at one time .

As to whether background and experience was valuable, yes, of course . I think that the experience

and background of a man who'd been involved in

civil works a great deal was very valuable because

you learned to deal with civilians . You put aside

your disciplinary Army regulation attitude and

mentality because you were dealing with civilians .

And it was a great assistance, of course, in the

diplomatic side of the job . There was a great deal

of contact with diplomats not only of Panama, but

of all the 22 nations that had ambassadors and

ministers in Panama . It was something, and this

Ruthie and I had to learn, it was a highly social

relationship, and there was a learning period that

we both had to go through . But the job of dealing

with high-ranking and important businessmen as

Division Engineer was an extraordinary help doing

that .

Well, maybe, I should go into what the job of the

governor was and also of the president then. The

activities will sort of be intermixed . The governor, since Goethals, had always been a Corps of

Engineers officer . He was appointed for four years

by the President . He went there as a civilian . No

governor has ever worn military dress . I elected,

when I went down there, to wear the same thing all

the time so that I'd be recognized every time I

went somewhere . I wore complete white with a dark

blue tie . Suits, socks, shoes . And my successor

12 9
changed that completely . Nevertheless, it was very

valuable because no matter where I went, I was

recognized . If they didn't know your face, they at

least knew, by golly, that the governor was walking

down the street . And one of the really sad things,

but it'll make you feel sort of good, over in the

town of Colon, the first time I went over there,

and I used to walk streets and go around and see

things, to see old retainers who had worked on the

canal, sitting down along the street and they'd get

up when I walked by and take their hats off . I say

sad, but I suppose that happened in the South in

the old days, but it sure happened there too . But

only in that one area over in Colon . In Panama

City it didn't happen .

As governor, he governed and enforced the laws .

There was a district attorney, a federal court, a

judge . He was under the court of appeals of New

Orleans, but there were also U .S . marshals who

would issue subpoenas on me from time to time . The

courts operated separately . They were not under my

control . I did furnish them housing, but the judge

was a U .S . judge and he operated in that capacity,

and there were two magistrates, one on each end of

the canal . And I appointed those, and they came

under my control . They were the courts of original

jurisdiction, and if their decision in the case was

worthy of trial in the district court, those cases

were referred to the district court . But the court

of original jurisdiction, the magistrate solved a

great many of those things . He was able to fine

and so on and so forth .

There was a prison, which was under my control . It

-had about 100 happy or unhappy inmates . And the

crimes that they'd committed ranged from, I guess,

smuggling to beatings to almost everything but

murder . The governor had the power of approving

executions, which I was glad I never had to do . We

had a Board of Pardons that reported to me, and I

would grant pardons or ameliorate sentences and

moderate sentences, just like a governor of any

state .

It's interesting, there was a leprosarium that came

under the control of the governor, which I visited

a couple of times . And there were about 100

lepers . They were not required to be there . There

was no leprosarium in Panama, and of course all the

13 0
Hospital, and while I was there we started the

redesign of that hospital, and subsequently a brand

new one was built . The hospital that we did run,

oh, I guess it had 300 or 400 rooms with a complete

staff . I mean we covered everything . There was

even a separate building for OB-GYN with a very

prominent doctor from the United States, who

retired up here and came down and got the job to

run OB-GYN . There was a very competent surgery

department and disease control . All aspects of

community health were covered .

Another part of the health department had to do

with making sure that malaria and yellow fever

never raised their ugly heads again . They had to

do with ships that came through the canal that

might have health problems . As a matter of fact,

we sequestered one ship that came through the canal

that had an enormous amount of "Montezuma's

Revenge" aboard . It was totally unsanitary . It

was filthy . A brand new, reconstituted ship, but

poorly operated . And we just held it up .

I even got a call from a senior senator about

holding it up, and I described to him that there

hadn't been any hot water on the ship . It had

broken down after it left New York, and the way

they washed the silver was to put it in a bucket of

cold water and wipe it off . I had ambulances

running back and forth from that ship to Gorgas

Hospital all day and all night long taking care of

those people . It was finally permitted to go on,

but ther were hardly any passengers aboard when it

finally left .
I think probably one of the things I'm proudest of

to have accomplished, and this may sound peculiar,

but the wife of the senior Army general talked to

me one night and said she knew that we had a remarkable school system, and it was a good school

system, but there was absolutely no attention being

given to the handicapped . And she gave me some

examples . She gave me the example of one officer

who had two children who had been unfortunate

enough to have been placed in incubators and overoxygenated and had become blind, totally blind . It

was one of the things that happened in the medical

profession for about a year or so until they found

out that they couldn't give excess oxygen to young

babies in incubators . There are also kids who

never seem to get good grades even though they were

pretty darn bright kids . So, I jumped into the act

and got the deputy head of the similar system in

the state of Illinois to come down and examine the

problem, tell me what the problem was, how many

people there were, and how we should go about it .

And he gave me very promptly a very good survey

that showed that there were a lot of students with

poor sight ; there were a lot of students with poor

hearing ; there were blind children ; and there were

children with mental impairments, some of whom were

educable, some of whom weren't ; with figures and

numbers and supporting data .

So, it happened that it was about the time that

appropriations were coming up, and I had no problem

at all with the Bureau of the Budget or the Congress having money appropriated for this program .

And I sent 16 teachers to Columbia University to

learn how to handle handicapped people in all of

their aspects . And when they came back, we started

a testing program . And sure enough we found, in

one case, a student who had an IQ that was 130 or

140 who was passing all the reading courses, but

almost failing the listening courses . And we had

the other side of the coin too . People whose sight

was impaired who couldn't read very well . So, the

first thing we did, we started giving them all a

physical exam on those particular aspects, and

caused them to get glasses . We put the same system

in the local rate schools, too . And caused them to

get glasses and hearing aids, and at the same time

started taking care of the blind . We got braille

typewriters and teachers who could teach braille .

13 2
As to those who were mentally retarded, believe it

or not, we did find in some cases that parents had

kept them at home and out of public sight . But

they generally were divided into two classes, as I

said, the educable to some degree and the noneducable . And we were able to get the parents of

that kind of student to organize into an association, and organize play yards and that sort of

thing . I used to go around and see that school two

or three times a year, and I had a precious little

girl learning braille, who had no education whatsoever because she was blind . And here she was hitting that typewriter, reading the things . And, as

I say, of all the things I did down there, some of

which were quite important, I was proudest of that

particular accomplishment, and it's still going

on . I still get a ticket every year asking for a

dollar to join the association . I am sure it is

still going on .

Another part of the government was dealing with

civilian organizations . I fostered and emphasized

the importance of each of these cities or towns to

have an elected organization . It would be the

intermediary between me and all of the people who

lived in the houses . Get away from having a company town to the maximum extent possible . There

was some disbelief on the part of, generally, the

U .S . that this wouldn't amount to a damn, and I

wouldn't listen to them and I wouldn't do anything

anyhow . But I used to go to their meetings, and

I'd talk at their meetings, and this was local rate

and U .S . citizens too . And they finally got to

appreciate the fact that it was worthwhile having

this self-government entity because they could give

me the local feeling that I couldn't get from the

administrator of the housing department, for

instance . And it worked out fine, and that has

been followed on by my successors, I know, and even

strengthened to some degree . How it will work

under the Panamanians, I don't know, because under

the treaty a certain percentage of the houses will

go to the Panamanians now, and in five years

another big percentage . It's all spelled out in

the treaty .

We had unions down there . I don't suppose that

there was a union that didn't exist . And I met

with them . The strongest one and the most

13 3
vociferous one was the Pilots . Union . The pilots in

the Canal zone are a very strong organization . You

may not know but when a ship enters the canal it

comes under the complete control of the pilot . The

captain of the ship has no say whatsoever . And

that doesn't happen in other places . In other harbors the captain still has a negative capability,

but it doesn't obtain in the Canal Zone at all .

But there were electrical, and laborers, and railroads, and just union after union, and I used to

meet with them to find out what it was all about in

the first place because I had never had to deal

with unions before to that depth . Somebody had to

deal with them .

I never will forget one meeting with the electrical

union, and the head of that union always looked at

me with a squint and a very serious face . So one

time I asked him what was the matter, was he

unhappy, or couldn't he smile or something like

that . And he said, "This is our third meeting and

all I see is the velvet glove, but I know damn well

that there's a steel fist underneath it ."

Other things were accomplished . Some of this is

interesting history I think . The Panama Railroad

existed . before the French started and was caused by

the gold rush in California, of course . You should

read some of the stories of people who were landed

at Colon and had to walk across the 50 miles to

Panama to get the ship to take them up . They're

really horrible stories . But when I got down

there, the railroad was and had been losing money

every year in large amounts, half a million

dollars . In those days, half a million dollars was

something . It operated from Colon to Panama City

and carried freight mostly, and also ran passenger

trains . And the governor had his private car . No

air conditioning, of course, but you didn't need

it . The railroads go fast enough . But the equipment was sort of antiquated in the boxcars and the

railroad cars and the engines .

I recommended that we do away with the railroad .

No, I think my predecessor recommended doing away

with the railroad . I would have, but I think he

did . There was a hierarchy on the railroad . There

was a president and to vice-presidents, maintenance of way vice-president ; and the organization

13 4
for that little 50-mile railroad was horrendous,

but it was patterned after the organization of a

railroad in the United States . So, I had to defend

the idea of shutting down the railroad . Incidentally, all of the unions there related back to

their senior union in Washington, D .C . There was

no state body . They went right back up there . And

they had relations with the Congress also . So,

they naturally raised a lot of hell, and I was

questioned thoroughly by the Congress, and the suggestion was made that they get a regular railroad

fellow to come down there and analyze the problems

and see what could be done . so they sent a man

down there who had just recently retired as a vicepresident of the Pennsylvania Railroad . And he

analyzed everything very thoroughly and he made a

report . And part of the report had to do with the

superabundance of officials in charge of the railroad and he felt that there was a solution to the

problem . Maybe we could do piggy-back stuff from

one side to the other, which was sort of silly to

my way of thinking . And he convinced the Congress

that the railroad could be kept and could be kept

operable . Great joy by everybody, but an enormous

problem to me because there were no specifics .

So, I got in touch with the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad and said, "Hey, this ex-official

of your railroad has put a problem on me, and I

think the Pennsylvania Railroad should help me

out . Your initials are P.R .R ., my initials are

P .R .R ., Panama Railroad, Pennsylvania Railroad .

And my problem stems from your man . So, I suggest

this, that you look at your organization and you

find some up-and-coming guy who is not as high as a

division superintendent, but some up-and-coming

young guy . And remember this, that this railroad

serves two ports, and nobody--very few people in

your organization can have to do with the activity

around the ports of the United States because

they're in Ohio and Indiana and other places like

that . I think here's an opportunity for you to

train or give training to a young man in your

organization that will really enhance his value to

you. Send him down to me for a couple of years,

and then in a couple of years give me another ."

So, he did it . And he sent me a fine guy with a

lot of vim and vigor and the love of railroads .

13 5
And we got rid of all that top hierarchy, and he

became the top hierarchy . We got rid of the switch

crews . You know on a normal railroad, the main

operator brings the train to a switch yard and then

another crew has to get on and they are the ones

who work- the switch yard . Got rid of that idea .

He did it . We got rid of the 100-mile limitation .

Railroads in the United States, the crew operates

the train for 100 miles, then a new crew has to

come on . That's still there . We got rid of the

engineer, I mean the fireman . They're oil operated . We cut it down to what a sensible business

operation would be .

This excited the unions a great deal . We had two

or three unions that only had one man in them, but

there was a union . Conductors, firemen, so on and

so forth . So they went to the Congress and said I

was disturbing and ruining standard railroad practice . It so happened that the chairman of the subcommittee that dealt with the Panama Canal was a

Mrs . Sullivan from Missouri who understood the

problems very well . So she told them, "Do you or

don't you want a railroad? If you want to insist

on the things you're demanding, then there won't be

a railroad . If you continue to want a job on a

railroad and [to want to] run the railroad, it's

got to be the way it is ." And they said, "Well, we

guess we better go along with the plan the way it

is ."

Well, through him and his knowledge of the railroad

we found freight cars and passenger cars that were

surplused for needs in the Pennsylvania system or

other systems, got new locomotives, got better

track maintenance, got bigger track in . He did a

superb job for me . And then in three years they

called him back . And then they replaced him, the

Pennsylvania Railroad replaced him with another

fellow whose forte happened to be equipment . And,

as a result, our losses went down the first year

some $60 thousand, and it may have broken even

after the third year . That's something I'm a little proud of having done mostly because it improved

the equipment so much .

When I got to the Canal Zone, they were about 10

percent into a major project of changing the whole

electrical system from 25 to 60 cycle . That may

sound peculiar, but when the canal was built, the

13 6
normal electric generation was 25 cycle . And as

time passed everything in the United States and

worldwide practically was 60 cycle . And it had

gotten to the point where there were no spare parts

for anything 25 cycle . Only in Canada were there

.still some relics in the 25-cycle era . As a

result, refrigerators were having a terrible time

keeping going because there were no spare parts or

no equipment that would work on 25-cycle electricity . So the program had been started covering

the whole Canal Zone to change everything to 60

cycle . It was a major program because we had generating at 60 cycle . We had no air conditioners

because there were no such things as 25-cycle air

conditioners . So as the cities or the towns were

changed to 60 cycle, the commissaries really had a

heyday in selling new refrigerators and air conditioners and flat irons and all that sort of stuff .

We had a great year that year in our commissaries

because of the sales of that equipment . The joy to

most of the residents who had never experienced air

conditioning before was to have an air conditioner . And the houses that we built subsequent to

that change always had a place in every room for

one of these air conditioners .

One night I was long asleep and the phone rang . I

had a butler in the house, but it got to me before

it got to him . And this pilot, "Governor," he

says, "I'm just madder than hell ." He says, "I've

been on a boat for 15 hours, and I just got back

here to Colon looking forward to getting in that

ice cold room of mine, and the electricity was

off . What are you going to do about getting electricity to [whatever the name of the town was]?"

And then he said, "Oop . Just came on . Thank you a

lot ." [laughter] But that's how personal the governor was to people in the zone . He may have had

reluctance to call me, but by God he did call me .

He fussed with me . But changing some of the old

motors and generators from 25 to 60 cycle was a

long, involved job . And it was let on contract and

done very well . But the equipment still looks old

like it did before . Only the windings were

changed . Lots of motors changed in the locks, of

course, and other places .

First time I went up with an appropriation that my

137
predecessor had prepared, there were quite f a number

of items for the dredging division . The dredging

division in the canal was almost autonomous . It

was headquartered in the middle of the canal, in a

little town in the middle of the canal, where they

still talk about gold and silver rate people . It

the money, in building the canal except the locks .

And a lot of that power in their minds still

obtained . And we had dredges, and every year a

dredging budget was put in which they prepared .

And the year I got there, it involved taking out

some little islands and a few other projects that

they had always put in against the day when there

wouldn't be major works to do . And I went up

ignorantly to the Bureau of the Budget and they

worked me over quite a bit . And they said, "My

goodness, here come the same old projects again,

and Joe, what the hell"--I used to know them very

well having appeared before them for MRD in Kansas

City--"what are you going to do about that outfit?" So I said, "Let's knock out the island and

keep in the budget only those essential things to

keep the canal operating, and next year I will come

up to you with a master plan for the canal ."

When I got back, I formed a long-range planning

organization, and this organization had to look not

only at the growth of traffic and the projection of

traffic, but also at what had to be done in the

canal as the traffic increased . The constraints on

traffic are--going through the canal are several,

but of course the locks are one, and the capacity

of the locks, and the time it takes a ship to be

locked through, that's one constraint that controls

how many ships can go through the canal . But the

other constraint was the narrow part of the canal,

300 feet wide, that went through Culebra Cut . And

if that could have been widened, then we could have

had two ships passing in Culebra Cut instead of

having to wait at each end of it .

And of course Culebra Cut was the real touchy thing

in the construction of the canal because where it

started out as a rather abrupt cut, it ended up as

13 8

was so powerful because it was the most important

division during the construction of the canal . And

they practically had access to the Congress separately from General Goethals . It was a powerful

entity because they spent all the money, most of
a very flat cut because it was in a very peculiar

material that slid under its own weight . So if we

could have widened the canal to 500 feet through

there, we could have increased capacity enormously . Our master plan that I took up the next

year provided for the widening of the Culebra Cut

over a four- or five-year period, and it was met

with joy in the Bureau of the Budget because they

could see that something positive was going on down

there rather than going by the old standards . And

the long-range planning organization really was the

organization that provided for the format of

budgets from then on out .

Q : Could I ask you just one question? I'm not clear .

To whom did the dredging division report? Was it

to the company or to the governor?

A : It's in the company . I've described things that

had to do with the government and the company in

this list of projects that I've described . But the

only items that I have described to you that were

under the government were the schools, the handicap

thing ; the citizen's organizations ; and any reference to towns, the cities and so on ; and the health

department . That came under the government .

Q :

A :

Q : Well that leads me to the question, what percentage

of the monies used by the company were appropriated

and what percentage came from canal revenues?

A : Well, as I remember, the appropriations for the

government were about $20 million in 1957-1958 .

There were no appropriations to the company . The

company operated on its own cash and made enough to

not only maintain the canal, but to repay the $10

million--or $20 million, and pay off $5 or $6

million worth of debt .

Q : But, presumably, the dredging di.vision could not

have survived without the money it got from the

government for its work?

13 9

So

funds?

the dredging division was using appropriated

That I had gotten, that I would get and be allocated to them for projects that they would have

liked to have done rather than projects that came

under what we call the long-range master plan .
A : No . The dredging division was supported by the

company . It was part of the company, not the

government .

Q : But without those projects that you came to the

Bureau of the Budget to get funded, would the

dredging division have had any work to do?

A : of course, they approved the budget of the company

also . Another project we did was build a bridge

over the canal .

Q : This was a new high-level bridge?

A : A new high-level bridge . It had always been desired because the only way to go from one side of

Panama to the other side of Panama through the

canal was to go over the bridge at Miraflores

Locks, which was narrow and constrained and sometimes was out of the way when ships were going

through . So, there'd- been a project in the works

for some time to put a bridge over the canal, and

Congress finally decided to fund it . And I got

Leif Sverdrup to design it, and its construction

was started while I was there but not completed

until I left .

And, let's see . one other project . The locomotives--you're not familiar with the way the canal

operates, but when a ship comes into the locks,

it's tied to locomotives that are on the lock walls

and they keep it in the middle . They keep it from

going backward and forward . They control that ship

while it's in the locks . And those locomotives had

gotten to the point where they were almost incapable of being repaired without complete rebuilding

and casting of frames and all that . We had a big

maintenance yard over in Colon, but the job was

getting sort of out of hand, and they were not

heavy enough . They were designed for ships of

5,000 to 8,000 tons, and we were getting ships

through there that were 70,000 and 80,000 tons or

bigger . So we designed new locomotives and took

bids, and to and behold, we had two United States'

firms' bids and one Japanese bid . And the Japanese

bid was much lower than the U .S . bids . I

recommended to the Secretary that we buy the

Japanese locomotives . Logically, this caused

hoorah . And in their examination of the reply to

140
the Japanese, they were able to find certain things

that they hadn't answered directly, things that

might have vitiated the acceptance . But they

couldn't quite swallow the idea that the bid was so

low against the U .S . that they wanted to assign it

in the U .S . So, they said, "Why don't you readvertise and change some of the specs?" Which I

did, not severely but enough .

And when we readvertised, of course, the Japanese

were low again . But by then they knew what the

U .S . bid was going to be . So their bid was higher

than it was before . Very clever people, even as

you and I . So we entered into a contract with

them . Sent a man to Japan, and they built new

locomotives, and those are the ones that operate

the canal today .

And the last major project that I want to discuss

is the house, the governor's house . It had been

Colonel Goethals' house, which, as I remember, was

somewhere around Culebra Cut when it was erected .

Subsequent to the completion of the hotel, it had

been moved to its present location, the location

when I came there . But it was an old house and it

was a wood house, and it took a lot of maintenance . But it was a beautiful old house,

southern-style home . And my predecessor had told

the board of directors that he was going to go for

a new house ; tear that one down and build a new

governor's mansion .

I heard about that about the time I was going to be

appointed, and I'd been sort of surveyed by one of

the civilian members of the board of directors who

came to Omaha to see what kind of guy I was, and he

went around the Division with me just to see how I

reacted to people and all that sort of thing . A

man by the name of Ted Bacon . And so I called him

and said, "Don't let him do it . I want to see it

before it's done," because I like historic things

and I wanted to see whether it was all right . So

they didn't let him do it . So I came down there

and of course admired the old house, even with no

air conditioning . No, it didn't have air conditioning because we hadn't 60 cycle in that area

yet . And I got ahold, through recommendations, of

an architect . I believe he came from Baltimore .

He came down there and I told him I wanted to save
Q

Q

the outside aspect of the house, but let's modernize the inside . The house was on stilts at that

time . And I also wanted the view of the house to

be improved by having terraces put in front of it

and additions to the landscaping . And so he did a

lot of design and we let , the job by contract . In

the meantime, I moved into the brand new lieutenant

governor's house as soon as it was finished . And

while we lived in the old governor's house, oh, for

close to a year, we were out of it for almost another year, and during the height of the construction there was nothing left but the shell of that

house, but it finally had a basement under it that

had washrooms and liquor storage and a place for

the servants to sleep . It was beautifully done

inside, changed the main stairway, the upstairs was

fixed up, a major air conditioning plant in the

basement, and it ended up we had a facility that

was highly usable . Certain areas like the public

reception areas I did not air condition because

there was lots of breeze . It was high on the

hill . But we ended up with a damn good house at a

cost of, which I don't know i f i t ever came out or

not, but about two-thirds of a new similar type of

mansion . It cost about 1300,000 to do that . And

then we completely refurnished the inside . New

furniture . We decided on what type of tables . We

bought rugs and carpets and pictures . And one

little private apartment where VIPs were kept was

completely furnished in very fine Japanese

antiques . Just a lovely, lovely place .

So we saved the old mansion and it's still there .

Q : Very nice .

A : So . That subject is the job of the governor and

the president . And the next item I was going to

discuss was relations with Panama . Why don't you

ask all your questions having to do with that?

Well, I want to ask you a followup to what you have

been talking about, some of your accomplishments .

A : Well, immodestly, of course, but they should be on

the record .

I appreciate you saying it . You got involved in a

fairly large excavation project, didn't you while

you were governor there?

142
A : Yeah, that was the--

Q : Culebra--

A : The Culebra Cut thing that I talked to you about .

Q : Okay .

A : Widening from 300 to 500 feet .

Q : Didn't you say that it actually got started?

A : Oh, yes, I had the first two projects under

contract . When I left, there were two more

projects that my successors did .

Q : I just wanted to clarify that .

You're going to turn your attention to relations

with Panama, so I will go ahead and ask you a few

questions . Probably you were going to cover these

anyway .

I want to ask you about a 1955 treaty with Panama .

According to my source, it raised the annual payment that the United States paid Panama from

$430,000 to $1,930,000 . But Panamanians, some of

them at least, called this treaty the Chamber of

Commerce treaty because it put money in the hands

of the upper class only . One clause in the treaty

required that the Panamanians in the Canal Zone

could not use commissaries in the Canal Zone, but

had to do their shopping in Panama City . This,

presumably, would have been a real boon to merchants in Panama City, who were evidently losing

business to the Canal Zone . Was this treaty a real

problem for you while you were governor?

A : It surely was . Maybe I ought to back up a little

bit . I brought out the fact that the 1903 treaty

was the original treaty . It had many things in it

they were highly unhappy with, the Panamanians . We

used to maintain the streets in Panama City . We

collected the garbage in Panama City . We were

able, under the treaty, to move in any time we

wanted to in case of civil disorder and anything

like that . In other words, we in effect sat over

local government when, as, and if we wanted to, and

the streets were maintained and the garbage was

collected .

14 3
There was a treaty in the 1930s that changed some

of those things and put back on them at their

request, maintenance of their own facility, us not

moving in militarily, taking away some of the

onerous things they thought of . And also another

important thing, the original treaty gave them

$250,000 a year [in] gold, and Roosevelt went off

gold . And so that was raised to a comparable

figure for the new value or devaluation of gold .

It went up to some $400,000, something like that .

Then came the 1955 treaty . And the 1955 treaty had

many, many articles--all of them they requested--

but of course they didn't get all they requested

during the negotiation time . Prior to that time,

our government had set up the organization I

described with the government and the Panama Canal

Company . What they wanted to do was make it a

business organization, which made the Panamanians

unhappy also, but it was not touched .

The point you brought up, the Panamanians employed

in the Canal Zone but living in Panama could no

longer use the commissaries . And this was a horrible blow to them . Their diet involved a great

deal of use of oil, cooking oil . We used to get it

in 50-gallon drums and put pumps in the drums, and

they'd come by with their gallon jugs and "buy

ile," as they called it . Oil, rice, pigs' feet,

chicken necks, we used to import those by shiploads

and sell them to the commissaries, and we were able

to do it at a pretty low price . But Panamanian

merchants were very unhappy, of course . As a part

of the treaty they insisted on, and-we agreed, that

the employees who lived in Panama could no longer

use the commissaries . And that causes the comment

that you made, that it was for the rich guys and

not the poor guys .

There was another clause in there that we would

foster to the maximum extent possible, and these

are not the words, the ability of Panamanian merchants to get contracts in the zone and to sell

supplies to the zone . Well, first thing that happened after I got there, we'd advertised a big

contract for rice . And the low bidders were U .S .

firms ; we raise a lot of rice in this country . And

the Panamanians were about third low bidder at an

appreciably higher price . And I awarded the

144
contract to the low bidder, of course . And they

went as high as the State Department to protest

that award saying that I should have awarded it to

the Panamanian merchants, who were going to buy the

rice from the same place and just tag on their little agent's fee . It was remarkable to me the pressure I got from the State Department to maybe bend

a little to give it to them . Well, as a business

man I couldn't do it . I just couldn't do it .

They raised potatoes in the central part of Panama,

many miles away . The cost of the potatoes was

about three times the imported value of the cost of

potatoes from Maine . Well, I couldn't buy their

potatoes . There were other items in that treaty

that I just don't remember at this time, but it had

a great impact on the residents of Panama who

worked in the Canal Zone .

There was another group there that I always felt a

great deal of sympathy for . I told you at the

beginning that the canal had been built by Jamaicans and other islanders from the Caribbean, and

the contract with them provided that after the work

was finished they would be taken back to their

homes . What I'm about to say is not hearsay, but

it might not be totally exact . But it's the general picture of what happened . A great many of

those people had been in the Canal Zone working

for, oh, four, five, six years, and the Panamanians

importuned them, not to go back, a large group of

them not to go back, but to stay there . And a

large group did stay . And of course they got

retired pay from the the Panama Canal Company or

or, I don't know quite the right word, but some of

the lower class Panamanians would like to move in

with them and try to get a piece of that little

retirement pay they have . They had some minor,

minor privileges in the hospitals in the Canal

Zone, but I think the treaty took most of those

away from them, and there were severe health

problems . These dear old people would visit me and

they'd always put their best clothes on, whatever

they had, to see if there, wasn't something that I

could do to help out in the problems that they

145

government, I forget which . But it was a very,

very small amount of money, because pay in 1914 was

small compared to 1956 . And a lot of these people

lived in poverty, but they were sort of worked over
had . I think subsequently things were done for

them .

Well, there were other items . Of course, again,

this is surmise on my part, but I think again it's

correct, when the Panamanians, and I think most

Latins are this way too--they're wonderful people

by the way, but watch out for them on business--

when they go into negotiations for a treaty,

there's always give and take . And when the treaty

is finally signed, well, they asked, for instance,

that the "in perpetuity" clause be removed, and we

didn't do it . But they asked for it, and they

asked for a great many other things that were not

in the final treaty . The mentality was that they

were still getting all the things that they asked

for at the beginning, you get my point? So there

were arguments after arguments . Fortunately, I had

a very wonderful man by the name of Paul

Runnestrand, who occupied really a position of

secretary of state of the Canal Zone, chief of

protocol, that sort of thing . He lived through all

the treaties, he's been down there for years, and

lives over in Winter Park by the way now . And many

of those problems were settleable by reading the

treaty . No matter how good you are in devising a

treaty, it still had to be translated into Spanish,

and a great deal of time takes place making the

proper Spanish word equal to the proper English

word, and there are always arguments on that sort

of thing that went on all the time .

I had a dairy, 600 cattle . Every now and again

we'd get a gift . Sherm Adams gave us a wonderful

bull, by the way, after he was down there . It was

a wonderful, wonderful dairy . The cattle were kept

in great shape . We had all the proper equipment,

all that sort of thing . And we produced milk,

which first went to the commissaries and then the

military, but there generally was enough for both

the commissaries and the military, and this offended the Panamanians to no end because they also had

dairy cattle . Now, their dairy cattle weren't kept

up in any sort of shape at all . Where we'd get a

gallon a day, they'd get a quart a day out of their

cattle . But they did have an industry, and it

offended them to no end that I produced milk and my

predecessors produced milk in the Canal Zone and we

wouldn't buy their milk . And that was the truth .

146
We would import powdered milk and pasteurized milk

and other milk products, but generally wouldn't buy

their milk mainly because when we inspected their

facilities they were not up to the standards of

sanitation that we required in our own equipment .

But finally, I think one of my successors did away

with the dairy .

I had a, this might almost make you laugh, but we

had quite a chemical operation that produced pharmacy items . One of the favorite things was a

recipe that had come from canal construction days

of a bottle liquid that was universally used to put

on your face and hands to do away with the effects

of heat, and it had great cooling powers . And,

golly, we could hardly keep it in stock . We made

our own aspirin, we made our own mouthwash, we made

everything that you'd find in a drugstore at about

half_ or third the price of comparable items that

might have been imported from the states . It was a

complete drugstore operation, and the price that it

produced and still made us a profit was so far

below the other kinds of stuff that there was no

way there could be competition .

Under the philosophy of the treaty, they saw the

big market in this cooling lotion and we said,

"Okay, we'll give you the makeup of the stuff, and

you'll produce it, and we'll see how it works

out ." Well, one of the first things they did was

take out the eucalyptus or something else that was

a prime element -- that people were used to having

in the product, you know, part of the smell and so

on . They got very irritated when we refused to put

their stuff on the stores market . I think that

operation is now gone .

We had an ice cream plant and made every kind of

ice cream there was, modern ways and all that sort

of thing . How long that lasted, I don't know but

it was still going when I was there because when

Mrs . Potter wanted peach ice cream, we got peach

ice cream .

Q : Did you get to know the Panamanian president while

you were there, Ernesto de la Guardia, Jr .?

A : All right, let me go down this subtitle I have of

"Relations with Panama ."

14 7
Q : Okay .

A : The Canal Zone was the most important industry in

Panama . Panama, I don't remember the exact figures, but if you looked at the exports and imports,

you'd find that their imports were always much

higher than their exports . They didn't export an

awful lot . The balance came from income from the

canal . We hired their contractors . We purchased

some supplies from them . Our payroll went over

into Panama, a very large payroll, by the way, went

over into Panama . And so we were to them, in our

minds at least, the most important industry in

Panama as far as their financial stability .

Incidentally, we also furnished them water, which

they, in the last two years I was there, never paid

for . They thought it was their water even though

we purified it and pumped it and put the mains in

and all that sort of thing .

We were the only Latin American, country where our

position as a whipping boy came ahead of the fruit

company . In most Latin American countries, the

fruit company is the one they beat over the head

and try to get more monies from . But we were top

drawer in the beating department because they

always wanted more out of us .

That establishes, I think, the position of the

Canal Zone with respect to the Panamanians financially but not politically because they always

resented the fact that they didn't own the canal

even though they had signed that treaty . I won't

go into the details of the 1903 treaty . It's been

published too often, and is done so well in The

Path Between the Seas . But, because of public

relations aspects that I have and my own personal

policies, I became a very popular person in Panama,

and the governorship was respected . And I'm not

being immodest in saying that . It's true . I was a

great friend of de la Guardia's predecessor,

President [Arnulfo] Arias . In fact, Arias called

me up one night in the middle of the night and said

that his son and some guests were out in a boat and

they hadn't returned and they felt that they might

be lost at sea . Would I please help? So I got my

tugs and boats and sent them out to the Pacific

Ocean, and we searched the ocean and finally found

14 8
them ashore many miles outside of Panama . Their

boat had gone bad and they had floated ashore . I

would do that sort of thing, and I think he would

have done similar things for me .

When we first went down there, I did the protocol

thing of calling on every ambassador, myself, not

Mrs . Potter, and there were 22 there . And then

they returned all the calls to me . These were

five-minute calls . You just went in and complimented them, and said how glad I am to be here, and

they came and called on you . It's a diplomatic

rote that happens every time a new ambassador goes

to any state capital, and a time waster . But you

got to know people that way .

And when they had receptions, we were invited to

the receptions . I had, in those days, a very large

entertainment allowance .

Q : Who was your predecessor?

A : [John S .] Seybold . With President de la Guardia,

we were boon companions, close, close friends .

Every now and again we'd play golf over in the

Canal Zone, and after we played golf we'd go back

to the governor's house, he'd call his wife up and

say, "Come on over, we're staying here, we're going

to have some cheese and something to eat ." And

she'd come over, and we'd go on into the evening .

I'd get some of the Canal Zone people in and we'd

have a party of 10 or 15 people . In the meantime,

the front yard was occupied by armed soldiers . The

predecessor of Arias had been assassinated in

Panama, you know . If there was a sudden noise

these guys were going around the house with their

machine guns, but that was a way of life . Any time

an ambassador was going to decorate the president,

all of us were called to go to the presidencia no

matter what time of day or night, and we'd line up

in the presidencia and a medal would be awarded,

and we'd all shake hands, and then we'd all go home .

With the business people of Panama, the same sort

of thing existed . We did an awful lot of entertaining . I went through my diaries this morning

again, and page after page for four years, this

person called, and we went to that party, and we

had this party . We had a great capability there

14 9
because an important part of the Canal Zone was the

Hotel Tivoli . At the Hotel Tivoli, one of their

first guests was President Roosevelt, Teddy

Roosevelt . It was another one of those big barn

buildings with no air conditioning . Mrs . Potter

took this on as a project because she loved the

Tivoli, and we improved the big patio in back, and

we started to air condition some suites, and fixed

it up so that it was viable . But it had a darn

good cast of chefs and waiters, so that at the

governor's house we had a butler and a cook and a

maid, a very small staff . But when we entertained,

we would move the staff of the Tivoli over there,

and had great competence for our dinners . We could

seat up to 24, I think, in the dining room, and did

it frequently . Mrs . Potter worked out the menus,

and got them the recipes, and supervised to the

extent that when we left, the maintenance department gave us a party down in one of the maintenance

buildings . And the head of maintenance, Duncan

Brown, Colonel Brown, came out and said he wanted

to give Mrs . Potter her fourth whip . And he said,

"You've worn out the other three ." And he gave her

one of these big bull whips, you know .

Q : Do you still have it?

A : I guess it's around somewhere, I don't know . She

is a perfectionist as you'll find out . She knew

her job . She not only developed into her job, but

she knew her job, and she's a great hostess and a

great governor's wife .

Q Could I just interrupt you right there for a moment

because you do bring up a subject I actually wanted

to ask you about? Do you think that when you were

approved to become the governor of the Canal Zone,

that one of the things that General Sturgis had in

mind was your ability to get along with people?

They were looking for a person who had a kind of a

PR ability .

A : Outgoing, yes . I'm sure that was a part of it .

Q : And how about Mrs . Potter?

A : Same way . Very, very much a lady . One of the

great ladies that I've ever met .

15 0
Q : Said objectively .

A : Yes, sir . I'm not comparing that with a housewife

capability, but as a manager and a doer of things .

Q : Okay . I'm sorry, go ahead .

A : In my relations with Panama, of course, I told you

about Paul Runnestrand, who was in effect my secretary of state, but in dealing with the military I

always had what was called a military assistant .

And while I was there I had three of them . The

first was Major Dave Smith, and with his wife

Gloria he assisted us in discovering the complexity

of the job . They are an outstanding couple with

whom we still maintain contact . The last one was

Colonel H .C . Jones, he was then a major . He and

his wife were just wonderful, wonderful people, and

he took on the job of being my right hand, and his

wife took on the job of being Ruthie's right hand .

When we gave a party, she assisted in the planning

and she manned the sign-in book . She saw that the

guests came in and were introduced . She stood in

the line for the reception and kept things moving .

Subsequently, he went back to the Corps of Engineers and eventually became District Engineer in

New York City . We kept in very close contact because of our mutual respect for each other . They

were darn near son and daughter of ours, though

they weren't quite young enough to come into the

category, but we always have felt that way about

them . And he said that he was going to have to get

out of the Army . And I said, "You're silly to get

out of the Army because you'll get to be a general

officer . There's no way out ." He said, "I can't

afford to stay in ." So he retired with 22 years'

service, and I employed him down here as chief of

Civil Works for the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is the government of the Walt Disney

property . And, subsequently, he went over to company employ rather than District employ, and became

head of the utility companies, which include the

water, electricity, the distribution systems,

everything having to do with utilities . It's a

company privately owned by Disney, but he became

head of that and did such a good job that within

the last six to eight months he's been appointed to

head the project in Japan where we're building a
theme park for the Japanese something like Disney

World . He will be moving out there permanently

quite shortly . I'm very proud that I had something

to do with that on both sides .

As I told you, there are about 22 ambassadors, and

we were continually going to embassies and they

were continually coming to our house . One of the

funny things that happened, the Spanish ambassador

was a career ambassador on his last tour . A rather

elderly man, and his lady was a pure Spanish type

who wore the black mantilla over her head and spoke

not a word of English . The ambassador hardly spoke

any at all, but she spoke none . And the first time

we went to their embassy for dinner or what have

you, I suddenly looked up and there was my wife

sitting on a sofa with his wife, and my wife

doesn't even understand one word of Spanish and

they were chattering away as if they were life-long

friends . And I just couldn't understand it, and I

kidded her about it, but believe it or not the old

lady would call her at the house and they'd chat

over the phone . Neither one of them knew what the

hell they were talking about, but she was having

trouble with one of her daughters and we were

having trouble with one of our daughters and they

were probably just going on about those problems .

I will never be able to understand what they talked

about . [laughter]

Q : You talked about the ambassadors to Panama coming

to pay respects to the Canal Zone governor .

A : Yes, and I called on them first . Oh, that took a

week to get them all done, you know . Some of those

were pretty nice guys . Some of them were just

holders-on, you know what I mean . But there were

22 of them there at that time .

There was a social relationship with Panama, and we

made dear friends there who are still dear

friends . One of them is the Huertematte family,

one of the dowager families of Panama . The sisters

married presidents . Bobby Huertematte, who graduated from Yale, still remains a very dear friend

and his sister also . He at one time was one of Dag

Hammarskjold's two deputies and was in the United

Nations fcr quite a while . Charming fellow . I

bring him up as just an example of the fact that

15 2
there's great graciousness in Latin Americans,

great graciousness . And they're lovely, lovely

people to have to do with socially . But of course

they're electric when it comes to business and

expressing their feelings in other matters .

One of the things that always caused some problems

was what is mentioned in the treaty as titular

sovereignty . We had, under the treaty, occupied as

if we were sovereign, in those words . But they

retained what they said was titular sovereignty,

and that derived from an idea that if we ever moved

out, it would be theirs again . So they objected

very strongly to the fact that no Panamanian flag

was flown in the Canal Zone . Panamanian-type

schools, the local rate schools, always had a

Panamanian flag crossed with a U .S . flag, but the

flag in front of the governor's house was a U .S .

flag, and in the Canal Zone there was no Panamanian

flag . And this got to be a source of bitterness .

President Eisenhower finally agreed that there

would be one Panamanian flag flown and it would be

in a little square between Panama and the Canal

Zone, in the Canal Zone in front of the Tivoli

Hotel . Incidentally, under the treaty, we could no

longer take commercial guests who were visiting

Panama into the Tivoli Hotel . It used to be the

Tivoli would be full all the time . People would

come down on boats who knew about the Tivoli, and

they would come there and stay . But under the

treaty we could only retain guests there who had

business in the Canal Zone .

Another thing, I don't know if the treaty touched

this, but we had the mailboxes--we had a postal

system . We issued our own stamps . I have a complete collection of the stamps that were issued

from the time that I got there until we went under

the new treaty . But we issued our own stamps, ran

our own postal service ; our stamps were beautiful

things . You should see some . But in the post

office nearest Panama City there were mailboxes .

And despite the fact that they didn't like things

U .S ., a large number of those boxes were rented by

prominent people in Panama, prominent Panamanians .

And that way they could get mail and make sure that

it wasn't going through any examination by the

Panamanian postal system . And under the philosophy

of the '55 treaty, I suggested to most of them that

15 3
we would close those mailboxes to their use, and,

oh, gad, I got calls over at the governor's house,

"It's not necessary to do that ." I guess I've

covered all I can think of on our relations with

Panama up until we get to the time of the riots .

You reigned over a little ceremony while you were

governor of the Panama Canal Zone . The one-billionth ton of cargo came through the Canal Zone on

the Edward Luckenbach .

154

Q Well, let me just go back then and ask you a question that I first posed to you a few minutes ago .

Your relationship with de la Guardia?

A : Personal, excellent until the riots . After that I

never saw him . I'll go into that a little later .

Q : What did you think of him as a person, I mean?

A : Charming, and she was a wonderful lady, just a wonderful lady . But I said, I've never seen him since

the riots, and we were together at least every week

up until then .

Q : You had a public information officer down there who

you evidently thought very highly of .

A : Will Arey .

Q : That's right . He must have helped you quite a bit

during those riots later on and tried to defuse

some of the anti-Americanism .

A : It was impossible . It was being treated at a State

Department level . He did all he could, of course .

You know he became assistant head of the U .S .

Travel Service .

Q : He, evidently, in an attempt to mollify some of the

protestors, Panamanian protestors, he had lampposts

on the fourth of July in the Canal Zone painted

with both U .S . and Panamanian flags . Do you recall

anything about that?

A : Oh, yes, vaguely.

Q : This is evidently something that received some very

favorable response on the part of the Panamanians .
A : That's right, and we had a great celebration at

Miraflores Locks . We issued first-day covers for

it . I signed a lot of envelopes with the billionth

day on it . It was quite a ceremony .

Q : I'd like to go over some personalities again with

whom you probably had some contact while you were

in Panama . Some of these people were on the board

of directors of the company . Wilbur Brucker,

Secretary of the Army?

A : He and I became good friends, and he visited down

there several times . He always stayed at the

house . Did a lot of shopping down there . He was,

quote, "Secretary of the Army ." He knew his

position . I mean, he was not always on time for

things, for instance . But I respected him . He

came from Michigan I believe . Had he been governor

of Michigan?

Q : I don't know .

A : I have a signed picture of congratulations from him .

Q : Congratulating you for what?

A : Oh, for a wonderful job, you know the kind of thing .

Q : For your work in the Canal Zone?

A : Not only that, but when I retired from the Army,

he, himself, officiated at my retirement in his

office and pinned on my final medal, the Distinguished Service Medal .

Q : What can you tell me about George H . Roderick,

Assistant Secretary of the Army?

A : Pinky, Pinky Roderick . He was the man deputized by

Brucker to be on the board of directors and to be

chairman of the board of directors . Came from

Michigan, too . He'd been high up in a furniture

organization there . Knew his job . A very charming

guy, and also his wife . Very, very fond of them,

and really couldn't see enough of them .

Q : Ogden Reid?
went down there twice . I visited him in Houston .

156

A : He wasn't on the board, but I knew him and respected him to no end . Beyond that I really can't

say much . He was the--oh, wait a minute, wait a

minute . He was the owner-operator of the Herald

Tribune in New York .

Q : That's right .

A : Oh, yes . Yes, indeed . Liked him a great deal . He

was very understanding . When I went to New York

for the World's Fair I saw him there a couple of

times .

Q : He evidently was on the board of directors for a

while according to some information I got .

A : Maybe so .

Q : Julian L . Schley, who, of course, was a former

Chief of Engineers?

A : Yes . Also, he'd been a governor, and he was on the

board for a while . And he used to come down there,

not frequently, but often, and he and his wife

would always stay at the mansion with us . He always insisted that his ex-governorship did not take

precedence over my then present governorship . And

even though he was much senior to me and had been

Chief of Engineers in my younger days, he would

never sit on the right of the car . He made me sit

on the right of the car behind the governor's flag .

Q : Some of these other members of the board of directors I don't know whether you had much contact

with . Let me just go over some names . If they

seem to be somebody whom you think you would like

to comment on, go right ahead . Do you recall John

H . Blaffer?

A : Oh, John Blaffer's father and one or two others

formed one of the biggest oil companies in the

United States . He was not a poor man . An extraordinarily interesting man . Besides inheriting a

lot of wealth, he made so much himself that he

didn't take any part of the inherited wealth from

his mother and father, passed that on to his

children . Had a great estate in Houston, and a

16,000-acre hunting preserve in Alabama . And I
15 7

Even after I left, we maintained a friendship . I

went out to visit him before he died . He died of

cancer of the esophagus . A very close friend of

mine .

Q : Robert P . Burrows?

A : Yes, from either New Hampshire or Maine .

Q : Manchester, New Hampshire .

A : Yes, New Hampshire . Very well thought of fellow,

very pleasant guy .

Q : What about Ralph H . Cake, Portland, Oregon?

A : One of the most interesting men I've ever met . In

the Republican party, he was a kingmaker . He had a

great deal to do in the inner circles of the Republican party . Was a close advisor to Nixon, who did

not always follow his advice . Very highly respected . Had an insurance company out in Seattle or

Portland . Portland I believe . We maintained

friendships and used to confide in each other for

years afterwards until he died . I think he was the

only one when they changed the whole board of

directors under Kennedy, the only one who was

reappointed on the board .

Q : Major General Glen E . Edgerton?

A : Oh, yes . Edgerton .

Q : Edgerton, retired by that time .

A : Yes, and I'd known him for a long time . I admired

him and respected his advice at all times . Topdrawer officer .

Q : Was he a major general in the Corps?

A : Yes .

Q : How about Howard C . Peterson?

A : He was a big banker from Philadelphia and a valuable member of the board . All of these people were

valuable members, and they used to be quite religious in coming down to the meetings when we held
15 8

them in the Canal Zone .

Q : And Charles S . Reed from Omaha?

A : Oh, a great friend, but not quite of the caliber of

these other people, but in Omaha quite an important

fellow . Cantankerous, sort of acid at times,

severe ideas or strong ideas that we shouldn't give

in an inch to the Panamanians and that sort of

thing .

Q : Ralph Tudor?

A : Yes, Ralph Tudor who eventually became Secretary of

the Interior . Had an engineering firm in San

Francisco . Of the same quality as Jack Sverdrup .

He became frustrated in the Interior because the

bureaucracy underneath can always strangle . No

matter what you want to do, the bureaucracy can go

sideways from you . Wrote quite an article in the

Saturday Evening Post on his experiences . Stayed

there, I think, about two years .

Q : Then there's the American ambassador to Panama,

Julian F . Harrington?

A : He was the ambassador during all the time I was

there . A career diplomat, who thoroughly understood the position of an ambassador . He met me at

the plane when I arrived, was always available for

consultation . He didn't particularly appreciate

the probably more important position with the Panamanians of the governor of the Canal Zone . I know

he didn't approve of things I did .

Q : Anything in particular?

A : No, but he didn't . He would have liked it very

much if I did everything through the embassy rather

than going directly, but I wouldn't work that way .

Subsequent to my departure, the State Department

was able to establish a policy that the ambassador

was more important than the governor .

Q : Who was your lieutenant governor?

A : I had two of them . When I went down there, Colonel

[Herman W .] Schull was the lieutenant governor . He

and I had been classmates at West Point, even
15 9

roommates . We kept in contact over the years . My

youngest daughter married his youngest son in the

Canal Zone . One of the great weddings that ever

took place, I'm telling you . At that wedding, all

the ambassadors were there . We had a band, Luco

Ascaraga, who was one of the great musicians . He

plays the organ . And his two sons do the maracas

and the drums . He plays exciting music . Remind

me, I'll play one of his pieces tonight . Travelled

to the United States each year for a series of

concerts . His gift to my oldest daughter who was

married in Washington, D .C ., after I left the Canal

Zone, was to come up with his conjunto and play at

her wedding . That was his gift . Another gift was

from Bishop Goodyn, who was the Episcopal bishop,

not only of Panama but of other countries down

there . He married Susie, my youngest, in the Canal

Zone, but when Joey was going to be married I asked

him whether it wouldn't be possible for him to come

up to the United States for a retreat, you know, a

religious retreat . And he said, "No problem at

all," and he came up and he married Joey in

Washington .

Q : Very nice .

A : There are other people, too . My other lieutenant

governor was Colonel [John] McElheny . He and I

were not the most compatible people in the world .

Q : He was there during the anti-American riots?

A : Yes .

Q : Do you have some notes about the riots and their

origin that you wanted to get into?

A : Yes .

Q : Why don't you elucidate that if you'd like, and

then I will follow up with some questions afterwards and sort of fill in anything .

A : The next subject I'd like to discuss because

nationally it was of considerable importance and

had a great effect on my career, is the riots that

took place in Panama against the Canal Zone in

1959 . I have discussed in some detail my position

with respect to the Panamanian government and the

makeup of the population of the Canal Zone, and

their differing philosophies .
The U .S . wages in the Canal Zone were based on U .S .

wages in the states for similar expertises, increased by percent . The residents of the Canal

Zone lived a good life . The wages of Panamanians

employed in the Canal Zone were not as high as the

U .S . citizen wages . An attempt was made to judge

them more on what was paid for similar crafts in

Panama but our scales were higher than was paid for

similar jobs in Panama . The fact remains also that

the more elevated jobs were held by U .S . citizens,

and very few Panamanians could aspire to getting to

a position in management in the Canal Zone .

Another example : the wages of a carpenter in Panama

were so far below the wages of a U .S . citizen

carpenter . And there were some in the Canal Zone,

the difference was laughable . Nevertheless, the

level of living in Panama was also much below the

level of living in the Canal Zone . The level of

housing in the Canal Zone was much higher for

similar types of employment than for the people in

Panama .

What I'm trying to emphasize is the divergence

between the way of life in one area and the way of

life in another area . This caused some dissension

between the Panamanians and ourselves, but the

greatest dissension was the remaining elements of

the 1903 treaty . The principal one was, I think,

Section 2, which said the United States would

occupy the canal "in perpetuity," and that

sovereignty over the Canal Zone would exist in the

United States to the exclusion of the exercise of

any sort of power by Panama .

Panamanians gave us the zone in 1903 because we had

assisted in the separation of Panama from

Colombia . Panama had been a part of Colombia .

They revolted against Colombia several times but it

never worked . Colombia would always send up troops

and crunch the revolution, which always took place

in Panama City because there was no other city of

any importance . But due to Roosevelt's very great

interest in having the canal and building the

canal, we were able to so impair the ability of

Colombia to get to the site of the revolution that

it was successful, and we acknowledged the

existence of the Republic of Panama almost immediately . And because of the distance between

Washington and Panama City ; and the fact that you

16 0
could only get from one place to the other by boat ;

and the fact that in their euphoria the Panamanians

had given ambassador plenipotentiary rights to a

Frenchman, Philippe Bunau-Varilla, who had been in

charge of the French operation . They told him to

go up north and generate a treaty, which he did,

and which the Panamanians to their horror only saw

after it was signed .

Nevertheless, let me emphasize the euphoria that

took place in Panama when they were recognized by

the United States as a separate nation, independent . Nevertheless, starting shortly after the

treaty was signed, the idea of the United States

owning "in perpetuity" this piece of land, which

was the most valuable asset that Panama had and

still has, started to grate . And many attempts

were made in the treaties of the 1930s and 1955 to

do away with that paragraph, which the United

States would never do .

Now, we'll jump to the university system . In Latin

America, universities are autonomous from the government . The government has no control over the

university . They fund the university, nevertheless

they cannot move in with police, they cannot have

anything to do with the management of the university, and any attempt by soldiers or police to

enter the campus causes riots of considerable

importance . This happened in Mexico subsequently,

and received quite a bit of newspaper coverage in

the United States .

So this idea of the unfairness of the "in perpetuity" clause was a subject of considerable discussion in the university . Another peculiarity of

university life, no matter how old a person was, if

he took one course, he was a member of the student

body . And by hanging around a fair amount of time

he could become president, or vice-president, and

be the driving force in any student organization .

And people of a leftist ilk had taken over, as they

had in other countries, the political action of the

body of the students . There was one professor in

particular who was continually inciting the students and the populace also--since there was not a

dormitory in the university, people lived at home--

to do something about the "unfairness" of the U .S .

control of the zone .
It started to come to a head . I had a very good

sort of FBI-like operation under my control, which

kept me very closely informed as to things that

were happening in Panama . And it all came down to

the point six months ahead of time that there was

going to be a real drive to get into the Canal Zone

and plant flags and establish their sovereignty at

the time of their national holiday in November .

The details of what they were going to do became

quite obvious . There was going to be a mass movement into the Canal Zone . Goodness knows what

could have happened, but basically that was it . It

was obvious that there was going to be damage and

there was going to be breakage and burning .

So I prepared a plan to keep these groups out of

the Canal Zone on both sides of the isthmus, Balboa

and in Colon, though the problem there was going to

be minimal. The plan involved four phases of

action . The first phase was going to be sort of

passive with my policemen walking around on Fourth

of July Avenue, the curb on the Panamanian side

being the boundary of the Canal Zone, a very

indefensible position . The second phase would have

been mobilizing more police and actively preventing

them [the students] from entering, [and] the use of

tear gas or fire hoses if necessary . The third

phase was going to be the alerting of some troops .

The commanders agreed that I would occupy the position of the governor of a state and the troops

would be in a position of National Guard subject to

my call .

Q : What was the fourth phase?

A : And the fourth phase would be barb-wiring the

street and taking up an active defense against any

attempts to get across .

The plan having been generated and examined by

people who were interested in the Canal Zone, including the military, I asked for a meeting in

Washington with senior members of the State Department and the Defense Department and any other interested department to review the plan and discuss

it . We had such a meeting . I told them of my

information of what was going to happen, how it was

going to happen, and what the results might be if

it did happen . The plan was discussed in detail

16 2
and received approval . There was only one. question

by a member of the State Department staff who asked

couldn't I let them into the Canal Zone just a little bit? And I had to tell him no, because on our

side of Fourth of July Avenue and all along the

street there was considerable housing, and it's

almost impossible without serious conflict to drive

rioters out of a housing area . It has to be done

piece by piece . There would be burning and

destruction . There was agreement reached at that

top level .

So we were all prepared . The logistics were worked

out with the military, my police were alerted, the

fire department was alerted. We were ready when

the thing started .

Q : Excuse me . Let me interrupt to ask just one question . Was President [Dwight D .] Eisenhower alerted

as to this plan, do you know?

A : I suppose . As I understand it, Presidents are

alerted of all events of importance and foreign

relations policy every morning . Whether he knew

the details or not, I don't know, but I assume

maybe he did . You must remember that Milton

Eisenhower was very close to the President and he

knew what could happen . I had known him and talked

with him, but maybe not about this specific subject .

The riots started and the plan worked out perfectly, but within the course of a day I had to go

to phase four . I had 180 policemen, but I only was

able to mobilize about 100 because of needs elsewhere .

Q : This was on November 3, 1959?

A : Yes . One of the reasons why we had to go so

rapidly into the following phases is that many of

my policemen were going to the hospital with wounds

resulting from rock-throwing . Riot preparation for

rock supply involves casting a thin layer of concrete and breaking it up before it has its final

set, and getting pieces of rock that are jagged on

the end and of proper size . And these were being

thrown at the police and hitting them and hurting

them, and the police force was being reduced importantly . The tear gas didn't work because the wind

16 3
was blowing in the wrong direction . The hoses did

work as long as we could get hoses in the right

place .

Nevertheless, a huge mass of people, 4,000 or 5,000

people, did gather in that particular small area .

So we went into phase four quite rapidly, and by

that evening we had barbed wire along the Canal

Zone and troops in field dress were manning--

visibly manning--the barbed wire . This of course

was just great for the media .

The thing that ruined my relationship with President de la Guardia was that as a part of my

intelligence, we were able to monitor the

Panamanian official radio, and we heard the

president make the decision that none of the

Guardia would show up in the area where the rioting

was taking place . They could have taken care of

the problem easily . But they were ordered to stay

away . There's no police force in Panama except the

Guardia National, which is the National Guard .

They are the local police in every town . There are

no local police anywhere except the Guardia . But

they never showed . up ; they were ordered not to show

up . We taped the radio messages that directed

their nonparticipation .

The press did a great service to themselves but a

disservice to us . In one instance, a little girl

ran across the street to the barbed wire and in

theory slashed her wrists down the barbed wire, and

then fell down in the street in a faint, and the

photographers were there . This picture was

published as far away as Vietnam .

In two or three days it was all over and things had

settled down again except for the aftermath . It

totally destroyed my relationship with the president, and I never saw him from that day on until I

left some seven months later . It also caused quite

a furor in the State Department . Everybody seemed

to have forgotten that they approved the plan, and

I was the person on the hot spot . Why did I do

this, and why did I do that, and all that sort of

thing . The State Department sent down the Under

Secretary, other important people from the government . Milton Eisenhower came down . There were

considerable discussions and even a reproduction in

Time or Newsweek, I think Time, of a

164
4

Panamanian cartoon of me with long fangs and smoke

coming out of my ears, and what a terrible person I

was, and how I was Public Enemy Number One . And

any popularity I had in Panama disappeared as to

that day, with certain exceptions .

After all the barbed wire was down and the whole

thing was over, you can imagine that the employees

in the Canal Zone thought I was a great hero, and

it heightened their dislike of Panamanians in

general . It set up a very bad feeling between the

Canal Zone people and the Panamanians, and there

was no intercourse across the boundary line for a

long time . My people didn't go over there, and

theirs didn't come over on our side . Very bad for

the merchants in Panama because our people bought a

lot of merchandise over there that we didn't have

in the Canal Zone, perfumes and linens and very

beautiful things that were part of the tourist

trade . It probably had some effect on boat tourists, too . Boats generally came through the canal

from Colon, stopped in Panama for a day, and the

shops were wide open as long as there was anybody

around .

But, it took a long time before the serious wounds

that existed between the two countries began to

even get scar tissue on them . And it was many

months before Mrs . Potter and I went into Panama .

One great exception to their avoidance of us was

that on Christmas Day, Dona Elisa Huertematte and

her daughter came over to pay their Christmas call

on us in the Canal Zone despite the. frigid attitudes that existed .

The businessmen, even the U .S . businessmen, who did

business in Panama felt that maybe I'd been too

severe only as far as the end results were concerned, but not as far as what was necessary to

quell the riots . There was a subsequent riot

nowhere near as severe . Some of these were led by

Cubans, but the second riot was done on a day when

there was a torrential rainfall and enthusiasm

faded .

When you say "by Cubans," are you talking about

Communist leaders?

A : Yes . Their technique is very good . They get on a

16 5
Q : In the wake of the riots, did Eisenhower decide on

any concessions to the Panamanians?

A : I think that it was about that time that they decided to put the flag, one flag, in Shaler Circle,

which didn't satisfy them of course .

Q : Were more Panamanian products allowed into the

Canal Zone to be sold or anything like that?

A : Well, our commissary bought Panamanian products and

products that came through agents . You see, in

Panama and in other Latin American countries, com

panies will have local agents that handle their

products, handled only to the extent of paperwork ;

the actual product goes right to the buyer . And

this is a very lucrative way of life . I remember

one of the Panamanians when he was appointed to the

Court of St . James as ambassador had 22 agencies,

and his problem was to make sure that when he finished that job he'd still have the agencies when he

came home . If you wanted an Arrow shirt, it had to

come through one of the agencies over there . No,

there was no reluctance on our buying from Panamanian sources whatsoever .

Q

high point where they can direct the public . I

think the best film of this is what happened to

Nixon when he went to Colombia . Was it Colombia or

Venezuela? Colombia, I believe . This happened

shortly after my riot, and he could damn well have

been killed down there . But if you look at the

films of what happened down there, you'll see these

men on higher, more prominent places directing the

crowds to go this way and that way and shouting

through bullhorns . It's a technique and a technology that is very interesting, and works, really

works, because a mob is a mindless thing, you

know . It will obey anybody's direction . It was

scary .

I was under a great deal of examination, but in the

final run I even received a letter from Secretary

Brucker praising the way I handled it and complimenting me on the great success, et cetera . And

more accolades from organizations in the Canal Zone

than you ever saw, but of course that was natural .

There are some other questions that I want to ask

16 6
you about the Canal Zone . Do you recall any problems with a point called Contractor's Hill, a

fissure, and it produced slides into the--

A : Contractor's Hill is at Culebra Cut .

Q : Oh, it is the same cut?

A : Yes . As time passes and the under foundation, rock

and shale foundations are overburdened and start to

move a little bit, then you produce a crack at the

top and you're liable to lose that whole face . So

the policy that was started during construction of

the Canal Zone in the 1900s was to slope back Culebra Cut as much as you had to in order to give a

stable face . But it always slid and you could see

it happening .

Q : I see . Do you recall any investigations or reports

by the General Accounting Office about the Panama

Canal Company, the GAO accusing the canal company

of being spendthrifty, and also the GAO suggesting

that perhaps the control of the canal be taken away

from the Army, suggesting that through the governor

the Corps of Engineers somehow ran the canal? And

that, it be set up as an independent office, like

the TVA?

A : ,What probably happened, everybody had aspirations

to get in the various jobs, but I don't particularly remember that one . I can tell you that I

kept a pretty close hand on all our expenditures,

our budgets and the way money was allocated and

used, and we had a very good accounting system .

Q : You're talking about the canal company as well as

the--

A : Oh, yes .

Q : Did you use any of your financing and accounting

procedures that you used in the Missouri River

Division?

A : Well, they were pretty well established by the time

I got down there . You must realize that a part of

accounting down there, which had been developed

over the years, was keeping track of tonnage, ships

that went through, what their manifests were, how

16 7
much their tolls were, all of that was not only

well in place, but established and rote .

You've been, on and off, involved with the canal

through the isthmus for much of your career in a

sense, because you started with the Nicaragua Canal

survey in the early '30s, and you ended up your

military career at least as governor of the Panama

Canal Zone . So, the question is, are you, and were

you while you were governor of the Canal Zone, in

favor of either a drastic enlargement of the canal,

or perhaps supplementing the canal with a new canal?

A : It was pretty well established, at that time, and

just prior to World War II, we started to enlarge

the canal by putting in a third set of locks . It

was called "The Third Locks Project," and Jimmy

Stratton had a great deal to do with that . There

was a lot of excavation done and huge piles of

excavation existed in the Canal Zone . It was

stopped as the war started because projects like

that were not that necessary . But, I became convinced that a new canal, or an enlarged canal, was

going to be necessary pretty fast, and by pretty

fast, I meant within 20 years . And, I initiated a

set of studies, seven volumes I think, to analyze

how we should go about providing either another

canal or fixing up this one .

This was in '58, I believe, and I became familiar

with the great capabilities that nuclear explosions

gave us, and I had several 'conferences with Dr .

[Edward] Teller and others . I don't know how many

canal studies had been made before my time, but

many, and all the information as to alternate

routes already existed . So the job was pretty simple as far as evaluating what routes were capable

of being looked at . And, we had the ability to

move large quantities of rock with nuclear explosion, which could be made safe as far as spreading

of the nuclear particles . Teller convinced me that

this would be possible--and as I say, we worked

very closely on this--and came to a decision that

there was a route through Colombia just south of

the Panamanian border, which would be twice as

long . But we would have to go through only one

ridge, the rest of it being low-lying ground that

was easily accessible by big dredges and not very

highly occupied . Very few people in the area where

16 8
it would go, and none at all, practically, where

we'd have to go through the rock of the mountain

chain .

My idea was that we would build a canal at sea

level that was wide enough so that maintenance

would be minimal after it was finished, and that we

could do away with the big resident population .

The canal company, in my time, had 14,000 employees, and that includes schoolteachers, of course .

But, we could do away with the big resident population . We could do away with the idea of big

towns and fire departments and police force and all

that . All that we'd really have to have is some

sort of an organization that would keep track of

the ships going through and the tonnage on them and

a way to collect tolls . I'd even thought that once

it was finished, we might turn it over to Colombia

to operate and get out of Panama . I presented this

plan informally to members of the Congress . They

thought that six of the seven volumes were awfully

good . The seventh, going through Colombia and

using atomic weapons, they didn't want to face up

to at that time . But, the whole darn report, less

the recommendations, was published as an official

government document by the Congress without any

recommendations on their part at all . Of course,

nothing ever came of it, until we had the International Oceanic Study Commission, which I was not

a part of, which again examined all these things,

and examined nuclear explosives and came to the

conclusion that the expansion of the Panama Canal,

to a sea-level canal, not only was feasible but

that would be the project that we'd go ahead with .

I might say that the idea of sea levelling the

Panama Canal had been studied in great depth, and

the methods of doing it had already been established, partially by Jimmy Stratton and his group,

the complexity of the dredges and how they would

operate and what we'd do with the fill, et cetera,

that already existed .

When it became known to the Panamanians that there

was some consideration of building a canal somewhere else, they got on their high horses, and said

we'd have to pay them for what we left . Huge

amounts of money . Despite the fact that it would

be a very usable canal, and if they could operate

and maintain it, they'd get a lot of freight

16 9
A : Of course, when negotiations were re-initiated by

President Carter, tbey'd been going on for some

time . To negotiate a treaty with anybody, it's not

do it tomorrow and get it done . It's a long,

involved operation, and even after President Carter

got in the act and really got things going again,

it took a long time to bring it to fruition, and

the negotiations were carried on in sort of

secret--down in the same island where the Shah of

Iran later stayed . The governor of the Canal Zone

was not asked into the meetings, but subjects that

came up were put to him for comment .

As it began to look like there was going to be a

big drive, of course, I had to, as a person with my

background, evaluate what I was going to do or

say . I was against the idea, the way it started to

develop . I never made any speech against it .

Senator [Russell B .] Long called me when the treaty

was getting close to coming to the Senate, and

asked for my opinion . I have a feeling, and I've

expressed it before, that a treaty, some sort of a

treaty, that not only admitted Panama's interest in

the canal, but eventually ownership of the canal,

would be inevitable . The problems had mostly to do

with making sure that it was still operable, that

the terms were fair to the United States, and that

the terms on our part were not a reaction to blackmail . Perhaps it's a good thing that it's all over

and the thing is established this time, but I think

it basically was too rapid . People have said to

me, "Well, what were you afraid of, Joe, about

Panamanians operating the--Egypt operates the Suez

Canal?" Well, the Suez Canal is a sea-level canal

170
where the only problem is dredging and maintenance . We had these locks that have to be

carefully maintained, regularly maintained, and the

proper amount of money spent to maintain . The

treaty with Panama provides that they get a certain

amount of monies, and the only way they're going to

get certain amounts of money is by raising tolls,

and anytime you raise tolls appreciably, at least

to the extent of paying them what they say they're

going to get in the treaty, you might start to have

a great impingement on the income of the canal .

I used to know Mr . [Daniel] Ludwig . He came

through the canal twice while I was there, and we

sat and discussed the size of his ships . His

ships, his newer ships, couldn't go through it

now . Much too wide . Much too long . And he said,

"Well, years ago we gave up the idea of planning

our operations around the canal . There were two

ways : the first way was to go around the horn,

which is somewhat impractical . The other way is to

have fleets in each ocean so that you don't need

the canal . The United States is supplied with oil

on the East and the West Coasts and the South

Coast . Oil can come from the Middle East for the

East Coast, it'll come from Sumatra and those

places for the West Coast . And, his philosophy was

that planning for larger ships just gave up the

idea of either thinking about using the canal or

plumping for a larger canal .

Q : What did you think about Mr . Ludwig? That's pretty

interesting that you got to meet the fellow .

A : Oh, he was very interesting . I heard that his

yacht was tied up there on the Pacific end and that

Clark Gable and his wife were guests, and he was

there a day, and I sent a message down that important people didn't come and do things like that

without calling on the governor! By golly in an

hour he was up in my office . I mean, he actually

came up there, really fast . And, it happened

again, only that time I didn't have to alert him,

because he called and made a date and came up to

see me . You've got to admire a man that from

nothing can generate the biggest shipping empire in

the world . And operate it . Fascinating fellow .

Positive, like Lucius Clay, as far as his ability

to make decisions and get things done, and, of
Q

course, his empire's all over the world .

Before we turn away from Panama, are there any

concluding observations, or anything that we

haven't covered that you'd like to mention now?

A : Oh, maybe minor, but I told you before how I wanted

to provide ways for the people in the Canal Zone to

become more attuned to the fact that it was an

artificial life . And so when I would hear, as I

always did, that prominent people were coming to

Panama, or coming down to the Canal Zone, I'd make

a date for them to come to the Balboa Theater, and

I'd alert all of our employees on that end of the

canal to come . In one case, Mr . [George] Meany was

there to talk to them about labor in the United

States . I think we probably did this a half a

dozen times with very prominent, worldwide figures who always agreed to do it, and I'd get 300 or

400 employees, who, of course, got out of work for

that time, to come and listen to these people about

things that were happening in the United States and

the world .

Q : That's nice .

A : It worked .

Q : In 1960, you left the Army . However, there evidently was some talk at the time of your succeeding

General Itschner in the position as Chief of Engi

neers . I'm wondering if you can talk for a couple

of minutes about first of all, your decision to

leave the Army, and second, about this talk about

your becoming Chief of Engineers .

A : Well, of course, as you realize, this is a very

personal thing . But I think I'd like to get it on

the record because, historically, it may not be

important, but as far as the way it changed my

life, it was very important .

I think I can say, without too much argument, that

I was destined to be the next Chief of Engineers,

and, in fact, General Itschner so informed me . He

came down to the Canal Zone and stayed with us, and

inspected the Canal Zone in my last year, but

before the riots . And, he was highly impressed

with the way the thing was operated, and what a

172
fine operation it was, how it was maintained as to

engineering, and the projects we had under way, the

kind of people we had . He met my staff and talked

to them . He told me at that time that he was considering two people to recommend, myself and one

other, but after the visit to the Canal Zone, he

said, there's no way out, you're going to be my

recommendation . That was firm .

Then we had the riots . This, of course, generated

all the publicity that I've told you about in the

past, and posed problems with the State Department

and their relations with Latin America, so sometime

in May, I guess it was, 1960, on a Saturday, I came

home from my golf game, which I always played with

General [Ridgely] Gaither and a couple of others,

and Ruthie said, "Sit down," and so I sat down, and

she said I got a call from Emma, and he said that

the Army had asked him to stay on after the end of

his tour . This has only been done once before in

my memory, and that's when they tried to keep

General Pick out as Chief, when they asked General

Wheeler to extend his tour .

I saw what was happening, and on a subsequent trip

up to Washington, I asked the Chief how long he was

going to stay on . Well, he had no answer to that,

he didn't know, as long as the Army wanted him to

'stay on . I had an idea what was happening . The

idea was that they didn't want to have to make a

recommendation, but through a little research I

discovered that the State Department, unwritten, of

course, had indicated that it'd be quite a blow to

the prestige of Panama, and create some further

dissension, if I were promoted to such a high

position . I had no backing for that, Emma never

would substantiate it, he would never answer questions as to whether or not that was the purpose of

his being asked to stay on .

After I left the Canal Zone I reported in the

Chief's office, and I probably knew this ahead of

time, to see what I was going to do, if I would

wait out this thing . They had no job for me that

amounted to anything . I was going to be chairman

of four committees : Board of Engineers for Rivers

and Harbors, the Beach Erosion Board, some personnel board, and some other board, and that's the

only job that the Chief could think up for me to

17 3
have . The Army didn't want me because all of my background, except the National War College, since the war, had been on civil works, in relations with

civilian entities . So, it was quite obvious that

something else had to be done .

Emma did tell me that Mr . [Robert] Moses, of the New York World's Fair, was looking for an executive

vice-president, and had approached him to see whether he'd take that job after he retired . Emma

already had his arrangements made to go to India or

someplace like that . A very important position,

which he was damn well competent to hold and carry

on, and which I, as an individual, was preventing

him from accepting! 'Cause he had to do, he felt

he had to do, what the Army wanted him to do, stay

on . So, at the same time, I was approached by the

World Bank . General [Raymond A .] Wheeler was

consultant to the World Bank, and he asked me to

come over and talk with him . They had a very

important project going on . It was a study in

Argentina, having to do with evaluation of their

transportation systems, rail, bus, road, and

ports . And, the World Bank was going to fund a

very extensive study that'd last two or three

years . He wanted me to take over leadership of

that study . I told him, in negotiations with the

World Bank, that I couldn't retire from the Army

with just two or three years of future employment .

I just didn't feel that that would be enough . If I

was going to go with them, I would want a

continuing job . You see, salary in the World Bank

is tax-exempt, and so, finally,-we arrived at sort

of a tentative agreement .

They said that they'd keep me on for either five or

ten years at a modest retainer after the Argentina

thing, but I was assured there'd be other projects

coming up . But, at the same time at his invitation, I'd gone up to see Mr . Moses . I visited him

twice, and the second time he offered me the job of

executive vice-president at a stated salary . I

told him I'd have to discuss this with Mrs . Potter,

that I was going back to Washington, going to West

Virginia to visit her mother, which we did . And,

the next day I got a call from Sid Shapiro, who was

Mr . Moses' more or less right hand, saying that

they'd had a meeting with the board of directors of

the World's Fair, and I'd been employed . That's

the way Mr . Moses worked . That sort of fixed

174
things in my mind . I'd been invited to the National Strategic Seminar at Carlisle Barracks . Leslie

Groves was up there and Mr . Brucker was up there,

and a lot of other people, and I discussed with Mr .

Brucker the idea of my retiring . He told me not to

do it, to hang on, that somehow or other they'd get

this thing fixed up, but please don't retire . But

I couldn't see myself taking on the job of chairing

four committees . It was obvious that, no matter

how anything turned out, the most I would ever get,

if I became Chief with a third star and, at that

time, another $100 a month retirement pay . So, I

made a decision to retire, and it was done nicely .

I refused a parade at Fort Belvoir, which was

normal . Mostly, well, I just didn't want to make a

lot of troops stand out in the hot sun while I was

formally retired . Besides that, they were going to

hold a parade anyway for Jerry Galloway . I said I

didn't want to go there, so I went up to the Pentagon, and Mr . Brucker retired me, and General

Lemnitzer, both of them retired me, and I have

wonderful pictures of Mr . Brucker pinning on my

Distinguished Service Medal . I think that was on

July 30th and the next day, I reported into Mr .

Moses and made the World Bank a little disturbed

with me .

Q : I imagine so .

You began work for Mr . Moses, then, as executive

vice-president of the New York World's Fair in

1960 . The first question I want to ask is what are

your impressions of Mr . Moses?

A : Well, in my life I've probably had contact with

more, but I've only worked for two geniuses, Mr .

Moses and Walt Disney . And, both of 'em were a

great deal alike ; dedicated people, sure of themselves, despised negative ideas . It was fatal to

go to them and say, "What you propose won't work,"

or, "There are too many problems ." That sort of

thing not only turned them off, but ruined you in

their eyes . If it weren't for the fact that I'd

worked for Moses and learned my lesson along that

line I probably never could've worked for Walt

Disney . I wouldn't've lasted long .

On the other hand they didn't want yes men, neither

one . A yes man was as good as dead with either one

of them, too . They really wanted people to do what

17 5
they had thought over and decided . Both of them

operated on a committee basis . They had wide differences, of course . But one of the things about Mr .

Moses that struck me--and we got into many discussions and talks about matters that didn't have to

do with the World's Fair--he planned projects that

couldn't even be started before he passed on . He

never admitted to the idea that he wasn't going to

complete anything that he thought of and wanted to

start .

He worked like the dickens on the preliminary aspects

of the bridge over Long Island Sound. Arguments

started when he even thought about it . It was not

going to be done for years and years, and yet he

dedicated a lot of time . The other was the

cross-island expressway across Manhattan that he'd

been working on for years . He never gave up on that .

A totally dedicated fellow who'd spent all of his life

in public works . His whole life had been spent in

some way working for New York State and New York City .

He started out with Al Smith, and the only man I ever

heard him express real admiration for, nobody else was

the same, was Al Smith! He had good feelings with

respect to [Fiorello] La Guardia, but not in the same

way as Al Smith . He surrounded himself with people

who had learned his way of life and did the things he

wanted done as to politics, engineering, instruction .

Verrazano bridge was his idea, and he got it done!

Oh, many other things besides the World's Fair .

When I joined the Fair he was in charge of the state

parks' system . He headed the state power authority;

he was in charge of all parks in New York City ; he was

in charge of federal projects, coordinator for federal

projects--or some other title--but, you get the idea .

And all those he did with not only resident staff, but

his personal staff that was with him at all times .

He was so well respected and I guess famous is the

word, because there's hardly anybody who has anything

to do with construction of public works who hasn't

heard of Bob Moses . When he took on the job of being

president of the World's Fair,* which really I think he

took on because he wanted, after the Fair, to have
Flushing Meadow Park be a greater park than it was

before . It was sort of an unoccupied piece of

ground . And, during the time that he was with Al

Smith up in Albany, they worked out lots of laws

that had to do with the Triborough Bridge, the

tunnel authority, and other things which he wrote .

And he knew the last paragraph and where the fine

lines were, and where the commas shouldn't be .

But his followers were in every aspect of the parks

of the state . He was the father of a law providing

that there be absolutely no commercial signs along

the freeways in New York State, and made it stick

against argument and pressure on the legislature .

You go up the freeways of New York State, and there

isn't a billboard anywhere . That's him .

Once, a man of considerable note put a billboard up

along one of his freeways along Long Island, on his

own personal property . Mr . Moses moved trees in

front of it . The fellow moved it . Mr . Moses moved

trees in front of it again . He just was not going

to be conquered .

On the same token, for a person like myself, and I

think this history to date will show you that I had

a good chance of ending up my career in the Army

pretty sure of myself and confident and having had

a lot of authority, all of a sudden finding myself

working for a man like Mr . Moses, who I had never

met before in my life--it took six months for me to

find a way of life with him . And during that six

months a couple times things came. to a serious

head, and it was a question of whether or not I was

going to get out . But, I was asked on bended knee

by some of his closest people, "Please don't do

it," and so I went up to his apartment, and we had

a heart-to-heart talk, and I told him just exactly

what I thought, and if he wanted me to get out,

then damn, I'd get out, but he wouldn't say, so I

stayed .

And, we finally became great friends and I always

called him Mr . Moses, and he always called me

general . But, as soon as the Fair was over, he

became Bob, and I became Joe, and we write to each

other now and again . Really a great, great man .

He had two unfortunate things happen to him in his

life . He and FDR became sort of bitter enemies .

17 7
He would've been a great Cabinet officer for FDR, but he had no respect for him at all, and neither

did FDR for him, and well, they're similar types of

personalities . They weren't going to be around

each other any more than they could help, and they

were never around each other . What caused that

dissension I don't know, I may have known at one

time, but I don't now .

He was a genius, he had, oh--I talked about summoning people . He was so highly respected that he

could summon people . For instance, one day he

decided to have David Rockefeller out ; he wanted to

tall; to him about something . The call was put in,

and he asked David to come out, and David did come

out . He wanted to talk to Jack Kennedy's brotherin-law, [Stephen] Smith . He was summoned, and

came . Time after time . I had lunch with these

people . Mr . Moses operated differently than Walt,

for instance, about lunches .

Mr . Moses had a round table in his office . We had

what you might call an employees' dining room, but

it was run by the best restaurant organization in

New York City . Probably four times a week, myself

and other vice-presidents would find ourselves in

Mr . Moses' office having lunch . One of the purposes was to practice his speech on us, whatever

speech he was going to give . And, it wasn't given

to us as a speech, but he walked around that table,

and we'd be in our chairs, and we'd just go on like

this, and he would pontificate about whatever subject was on his mind, and develop his theory and

philosophy . Never asked us for our opinion on the

thing, but it would come to us as he went around,

and he probably could see our reaction, now and

again, somebody might say, "Oh, don't you think you

might say it a little differently, this way?" or

something like that .

But, also, he would have these people I told you

about out to lunch, and we would be there during

those lunches unless it was going to be a very

private matter . He wanted me to become a part of

New York City and New York State . He insisted, and

the Fair paid for, my membership in a downtown

club, a very prestigious club . He selected the

club I was going to belong to, which was the Lotus

Club . He wanted me to belong to a golf club out on

17 8
the Island, he selected that golf club and got me

the membership, and that was the Creek out on Long

Island, which cost the Fair $1,000 a year, and

where I played five times in five years, it was

just so darn far away!

The Rockefellers on their big family estate were

having a to-do one day, and to and behold he took

me up there . I already knew Nelson Rockefeller

from the Canal Zone, I forgot to put that in my

memoirs, but Nelson visited the Canal Zone twice

while I was down there . He wanted to talk to me

about relations with Panama and doing things for

Panama, and wanted to talk to me privately so he

grabbed a bottle of champagne and two glasses full

of ice . He drank his champagne in a tumbler-full

of ice, and we'd go off in the corner and "discuss

things . And, when I came up with the Fair, of

course, he was governor, and he remembered me, but

we were never close or intimate or anything like

that .

Q : Well, I'm curious of course about how one goes

about planning for a World's Fair .

A : Well, again, when I joined it was Flushing Meadow

Park, and it was a big open space with nothing on

it except some trees and some roads that were left

after the '39 Fair, which had been held at this

same place . There'd been a lot of groundwork, I

don't mean digging the ground, but a lot of planning work done before I got there, but nothing had

been firmed up . And, I guess maybe I was of some

assistance during that planning work . There is, in

Paris, an organization that's existed for a long

time called the BIE or BEA, Bureau of Expositions

International, or something like that . And, an

80-year-old guy who had formed it, with a secretary, were on the fourth floor of some decrepit

building in Paris . They held the shoestrings, and

there was an organization and there were bylaws,

and there were policies that were pretty well

fixed .

And, one of the policies was that a recognized

17 9

World's Fair could not last more than six months .

Our Fair had to last two years to come out financially . And, there were visitations over there to

talk to these people, and Mr . Moses, in his wisdom,
Q

decided he wasn't going to bow and scrape to an

organization like that, and the hell with them .

So, we never received recognition by this international body, which had one bad side effect . Were

we recognized as a World's Fair of Class 1, and

that's the biggies (there are Class 2s and Class

3s ; Class 3 is more or less a commercial fair)

every member of the Association would have had to

participate . And, there would've been medals given

for the best beer and the best this, that and the

other, you know, you've seen bottles of liquor that

were judged best of their kind at the something or

other world's fair .

But, he wouldn't go along with their policies, and

so we went ahead, and as a result, we had to importune nations to come to the Fair . Generally,

nations don't like to come to Fairs because they're

frightfully expensive . Subsequently, I think it

was during President Johnson's tenure, we agreed to

participate with this organization, so that our

Fairs in the United States would be accredited .

And, when I got there they had developed the preliminary master plan for the development of the

property . It was approved . Of course, I became a

member of the board of directors, also, because of

the office, made up~~ of the most prominent New York

people, heads of banks, etc . They were the topdrawer citizens, which was essential in order to

have the city behind us . It-was a considerable

education for me . My input into the master plan

was not too great except in implementation because

Mr . Moses made his own mind up .

Was there special legislation necessary to get the

World's Fair off the ground either at the state or

local level, that you can recall?

A : I suppose there was . I know the U .S . Congress had

to pass legislation to appropriate the money for

the federal exhibit .

Q : How about any changes of waivers on building codes

and things of that sort?

A : We had to be pretty tight with that . Of course,

180
the other problem was labor, and both the head of

the Building Trades Council and the head of the

Electrical Engineers union were members of the

board of directors .

Q : But, there were labor problems, were there not?

A : Oh, yes, always . Not serious, because we'd be told

ahead of time what we'd have to do to prevent something, and generally we'd go along, even in some

cases when it was downright silly.

Q : What kind of labor problems were there?

A: Oh, when you build underground power lines, you

have openings into the conduits and have little

handholds where you can go down and make connections . During the winter they'd get full of

snow and the laborers thought that they were the

ones to open them up, and the electricians thought

they were the ones to open them up . You know . But

nothing like the arguments they had in the '39

Fair, when foreign nations would send over electrical equipment, like motors, and the electricians

would demand that they be rewound by American labor!

Q : Were there also problems with bidding?

A : Well, as you know, Bill Whipple was in charge of

engineering and construction, and Bill Whipple is a

very pragmatic, honest guy with a hell of a lot of

brains . He was able to fit into that organization

very well . Mr . Moses sometimes would decide what

contractor was going to give a certain job, and the

dictum would come out that this was the most capable firm and also, the one that would have the

least labor problems and understand what we're

trying to do, et cetera .

Q : So, in other words, Moses would tell Bill Whipple

whom to hire?

A : In some cases . Other times, I think we took bids

for elements that didn't make that much difference,

for supplies and that sort of thing .

Q : Were most of the buildings finished on time?

A: Almost, but the visual aspects were complete . On
another subject, just shortly after I got there,

teams were formed, very prominent New York people,

with their wives, five or six people with their

wives, to visit foreign countries inviting them to

join us . We had an "in" in the State Department

because the Under Secretary of State was convinced

that the Fair was a good thing, and he told his

ambassadors to open the doors . We were able--those

teams were able to meet heads of countries . The

normal way to approach a problem like that is for

the local people in the U .S . to visit the commercial secretary of a legation . Well, you don't get

anywhere that way, because he's down the line, and

he has to feed up to the ambassador and across

ocean and in the meantime the story has changed,

and you never get anything done . The only proper

way is the way we did it . It cost a lot of money,

but it worked in some countries . And we'd have

going-away parties as they left on Pan Am with

press . The trips were well orchestrated .

Q : What were the reasons for the belated completion

dates for the building?

A : Well, the arm-twisting to get people and companies

to come in took time, and some of them started

pretty late . There was an exhibit, theoretically

from Belgium, that actually wasn't Belgium-sponsored, but it started late, and it wasn't all finished by the time we opened . The night before the

big parade, which I was going to marshal, behind

the Spanish pavilion, the roads were still full of

dirt . You couldn't see the street for boxes and

trash, and I spent part of that night directing

forces to fill trucks to get it cleaned up . We had

it all cleaned up by the next morning, but there

were still some buildings that had work to do .

Q : Did you ever make recommendations to nations about

what kind of displays you would like to see there?

A : No, my area of responsibility was the states . We

were so anxious to get them in that we'd tell them

the rules and what areas were available, and how

much it was going to cost per square foot to rent

the land . Generally, it was up to them to put in

the exhibit that would serve the purposes of

attracting visitors and industry to their particular state .

18 2
Q : How about the contacts with the private companies?

Did you have anything to do with that?

A : That was mostly Martin Stone . I assisted him in

some of them . I used to do most of the groundbreaking ceremonies . Never will forget once I

said, "It's a great thing to have Pepsi here," and

I was talking at the Seven Up pavilion!

Q : Well, some of those exhibits were spectacular, as I

recall .

A : Oh, some of them really were! And, Walt had four

there .

Q : Well, why wasn't the World's Fair a financial

success?

A : Well, several things happened . The most important

thing that happened was on opening day when we

heard that the roads were going to be blocked and

the Fair picketed, I forget which organizations

were going to do it, but obviously for those organizations, the activity would generate an enormous

amount of media coverage . We were able to assure

that the roads weren't going to be blocked, but

when President Johnson came there for the grand

opening, there was quite a bit of hassle . I guess

it was about the blacks . Civil rights and that

sort of thing . As a result, I can give you an

example, in Houston, Texas, Braniff had so many

hundreds of tickets to the Fair sold, and after all

this hassling came out, why it went down to darn

near zero in cancellations . Then the hotels oversold, and people came up for reservations and found

they didn't have any reservations, and it started

out with rather bad newspaper publicity, which

lasted a long time . As a result, in planning the

second year, we had to be quite stringent with cash

expenditures .

In the second year attendance was not good . The

first year, though, was beautiful . The second

year, the appearance was beautiful, but the crowds

never came .

Q : Are there any other comments or observations that

you want to make about the World's Fair, about your

work there?

18 3
A : Of course, it was five years of my life, and it was

a rather nice five years . Being a part of a major

enterprise, associating with the New York power

structure, working with new heroes--all of these

were experiences given to few people .

Q : Where did you live while you were working for the

World's Fair?

A : Where else but Park Avenue?

Q : Park Avenue? I'm going to ask you a question

dealing with a personality who we haven't talked

about before . During this time you evidently were

corresponding quite a bit with Hanson Baldwin, the

military editor of the New York Times . When did

you first meet Hanson Baldwin, and what generated

this correspondence?

A : Well, problems in Panama . I met him and many other

prominent newspaper people, I was going through my

diaries last night, and I guess every prominent

newspaper in the country was represented . Besides

they had local stringers in Panama . Some, like the

New York Times , had a local stringer there . But

Hanson was an avid reporter, as you darn well know,

and I would've hated to have been in the Pentagon

with him in his job, because he knew how to bore

in, and he was not a believer in what you said,

unless it went along with other facts he may have

generated or philosophies that he had .

I admired the guy, but at first I was a little

chary about being too forthright, and probably that

wasn't necessary because he made his own mind up

anyhow . And that one article he wrote about the

Canal Zone, I think it was a fair article, even

when he said I was considered Public Enemy Number

One in Panama after the revolution, it was fair .

That was so, didn't bother me at all . I respected

him, I really did . Though I know some people in

the Pentagon may not have because he bored in .

Q : Would you say you were on friendly terms with him?

A : I would say so . He always had access to me when he

wanted it . I also got to know, a little bit, Drew

Pearson, who did the column that startled Admin

istrations from time to time . I got to know Drew

18 4
Pearson, and Drew wanted me, next time I came to

Washington, to sit down and have lunch with him .

Well, I just got scared stiff about accepting that,

18 5

and I guess in my acceptance I indicated that I was

coming on soft shoes . So he started to write it

off, and he said, "Anything you tell me is not

going to be published, I'm only here to establish

some sort of relationship, see what kind of guy you

are," and so on .

Q : When was this?

A : I forget the exact time . But, he never did publish

a darn thing about our lunch . A great deal like

Baldwin in boring in, but with probably more capability in getting in the dark alleys to find out

information . And, I guess Jack Anderson's somewhat

the same way . I wish I had all my books iri front

of me, my diaries, and could talk about all of the

people who came to the Canal Zone . It was a focal

point, and in looking over my diaries I guess I met

damn near everybody who was anybody when they came

through . My PR types were very good at seeing that

visitors knew that I'd like to see them .

Q : You were executive vice-president of the New York

World's Fair until 1965 . In that same year, 1965,

you joined Walt Disney World, I believe .

A : Walt Disney, yes .

Q : Walt Disney . What's the official name? Walt

Disney Productions?

A : Well, Disney Productions is the name of the company .

Q : I'm wondering if you can tell us how you were

hired . What contacts allowed you to get the job?

A : Well, my function at the Fair basically had to do

with getting states and sometimes industry to put

in exhibits at the Fair . During the time that I

was very active in this, Walt Disney was retained

by several companies, four, in fact, to produce

major exhibits at the Fair . Since I was executive

vice-president, and since many of the lunches and

other affairs were held, I got to know Walt Disney

and his staff pretty well during the year-and-ahalf these things were under construction .
The exhibits were It's a Small World, which was

devised for the Fair, and sponsored by, I believe,

Pepsi Cola ; the Lincoln exhibit at the state of

Illinois, and that's where I really bumped into

him ; the Ford exhibit, which was a mammoth thing ;

and General Electric . I was engaged a great deal

with the Disney organization in arranging the

Illinois exhibit . For many years Walt had had the

idea of producing a Hall of Presidents, which was

to show all the Presidents of the United States,

all of them audio-animatronic figures . The principal figure, and the principal speaker in this

presentation, was to be Abraham Lincoln . The total

exhibit was pretty well under design, conceptualized, but the state of Illinois felt they didn't

have the money to put in the whole Hall of

Presidents . So an agreement was reached to just

use the figure of Lincoln, which was the principal

figure, and the one that moves the most, and makes

a very stirring speech . That was worked out, and

that exhibit of Illinois did work out, and at the

grand opening many prominent figures were there to

see Lincoln in action for the first time .

During the course of negotiation for the second

year of the Illinois exhibit, I sat in many

meetings with Walt while we were negotiating what

would go in the exhibit the second year, if there

were any changes et cetera . And somehow or other

we seemed to get along very well, and in December,

I guess, of 1964, it was sort of inkled at me that

Walt would like me to join his organization .

My inkling back was very positive . My contract

with the Fair lasted until the end of 1965, but the

principal part of any activity I might have at the

end of the Fair was in the destruction of the Fair,

in tearing down the buildings that had to come

down, and I was not interested in that in the

least . I discussed this with Walt and the staff,

went to Mr . Moses, and said that Walt Disney had

offered me this remarkable opportunity .

At that same time it was indicated that Walt was in

the process of getting very large acreage in

Florida, but that was kept secret, and that's what

he wanted me for, to assist in the master planning

and the development of Walt Disney World . I went

to Mr . Moses and told him in confidence that Walt

18 6
had made me this offer . Things like that didn't

impress Mr . Moses too much, the confidence part,

and within two days he utilized his normal way of

operation, which was to write me a letter complimenting me on being "retained by this prominent man,

that it was a great compliment to the Fair, to him

and to myself, and then he sent about 15 copies to

prominent people in New York, so the secret was

out . He said I could go when the Fair closed, but

later relented a little bit and let me go the first

part of September .

The transition was beautiful, with the normal number of farewell parties at the Fair . Moses gave me

a gold medal and other mementos . But, I left the

Fair on about the first of September, went back to

Grafton, West Virginia, with my wife to settle the

estate of her mother, who had died just prior to

this, and then drove to Chicago, took the train out

to Los Angeles, and joined the organization, I

think on September 27, 1965 . One very interesting

thing about the thoughtfulness of the Disney organization : I went out there for a major meeting in

January to discuss all the aspects of the property

here in Florida and the plan of development, how

things were to be approached .

Q : This is Anaheim?

A : No, no . In Burbank . While I was there, the personnel officer talked to me, said that I would

become 60 years old before I would officially join

the organization in September . They had an insurance plan that let you take out an insurance policy

twice your salary, at a very cheap rate, of

course . But, if you were 60 or over, you could

only take out $1,000 worth of insurance . So, at

that time they employed me at the minimum wage,

starting I think in May, and every two weeks I got

a check for $2 .50 an hour or something like that

for 40 hours . As a result I was able to get in the

insurance plan at that salary, and then when I

joined later at the maximum amount, all of which

shows what a great company it was to me, and I was

always very appreciative of it .

For a year-and-a-half, almost, or at least until

Walt died I had an office right across the studio

from Walt's . And, my main job was to work with

18 7
Walt and an architect who had had to do with the

design of Disneyland, by the way, in developing a

master plan for the big project in Florida . When

we finally got to the seventh preliminary master

plot plan, Walt was happy with what he saw . He

never had much interest in what the theme part was

going to be, because as he said, "We've done that .

All that's going to require is modernization,

bringing it up to date, and planning it from the

start as a total concept," rather than like Disneyland, which had started out with minimum funds and

gradually expanded . At about that same time, he

said that he wanted me to get on my horse and go

out and visit industrial research laboratories,

because industry was going to be a major part of

what we were going to do in Florida, and he wanted

to know what industry was thinking about their

future : What were they going to be doing 10, 20

years down the line? In the case of Westinghouse

and General Electric, for instance, they were not

going to be building the same refrigerator, toaster, irons, air conditioning units, generators and

what have you . So I developed a series of visits

and during the course of the next six or eight

months, I visited about 100 industries in the country, talked with them, and in many cases got into

their research laboratories . I would come back

from trips, report to Walt by short memos what I

saw and what I thought might be interesting . He

was so interested in Westinghouse that we got into

the Gulfstream [jet], about eight of us, and went

to Westinghouse and spent two days going through

their laboratories, looked at their people mover

system, which is the same one by the way that is

going in down here at the Greater Orlando Airport,

and saw what they were thinking about their future

products, going way out in the future .

We visited many companies this same way . Visiting

research laboratories continued after Walt died .

In several cases, Roy and the executives of the

studio and I would go to important places like the

Bell labs, IBM, RCA labs, several others, to see

what they were thinking about their particular

futures . We talked to educators, we talked even to

some historians, we visited practical laboratories

like Rockwell International, the GE Research Laboratory just north of Los Angeles . It was a fascinating time . I got to know a great many senior

188
executives of many of the companies, which was very helpful later on .

In the meantime more detailed planning was going on the Florida project, the intimate planning, of the

project, even to the extent of starting to look at the finances . That was not faced up to as a

project, because in December of '66 Walt died .

Q : What was Mr . Disney's purpose in sending you out to visit these companies in terms of its practical

application to Disney World?

A : Well, the philosophy of the project here is evidenced in the name EPCOT, the Experimental Prototype Community (not city) of Tomorrow . And, the

idea was that here the people of the world, because

we have a large group of international visitors who

come to our projects every year, would see and

experience what industry was about to develop, or

thinking about developing, to put new products into

use, to go through the experimental use of those

products, and see how they worked . In other words,

keep advancing with American industry, and I'm not

just talking about manufacturing, but also education, medical care, hospitals, energy, water, and

land . All those things that are a part of human

life, what makes America, what makes the world .

And, as I said before, his idea was to expose not

only our great industries but our great philosophies of life to foreign nations and people in the

United States and in some way have a resurgence of

American loyalty and also set up a relationship

between young people in our country and young people in the foreign countries that would be lasting

and might lead to important friendships that could

impinge on world affairs in years and years to come .

You say he was a visionary . Yes, he was a visionary, but he was a practical visionary . People to

People is a great program in the United States .

This is people to people impinging upon one

another, living with each other . It's a concept

that's still in the company and is one of the

reasons that EPCOT is being built at the present

time .

After Walt died, the full management of the company

descended upon Roy, who I said was eight or nine

189
years older than Walt . He had to learn what was

going on in the creative part of the company

because that was not his part of the company when

Walt was alive . He had to learn about it, and he

did a remarkable job of holding the company together, and melding everybody in one joint effort .

The biggest joint effort was this project here in

Florida .

Oh, I forgot one other thing I think's important .

We kept the purchase of this property quite

secret . One lawyer greatly experienced in real

estate was given the job of assembling properties

here in Florida . Walt, at Disneyland, had been

circumscribed by a very small piece of property,

the total piece eventually only came to about 300

acres . It was built in orange grove country, but

as its popularity increased, all of those hanger-on

types of things started to develop in Anaheim,

around the theme park . And, eventually, we had a

little jewel surrounded by more crass money-grabbing sorts of activities, fortune-tellers and hot

dog emporiums and all that sort of thing . He felt

that his new project needed a frame that couldn't

be denigrated by venture types of operations . So,

his charter to Bob Foster, who was the person I

mentioned who was to get him a piece of property,

about 10,000 acres, in Florida, was that it be

buffered from the rest of the world .

Bob came down here, always coming through Kansas

City, which had . been his home, never arrived from

Los Angeles at all ; took a different name ; dealt

with a major legal firm in Miami, which was to be

trustee of all the lands that were purchased ; had

the mail that came from them go to Kansas City .

Only that law firm knew that Disney was the one

that was doing this .

Well, after Bob had assured us that we had the

10,000 acres, and as you saw yesterday it's well

buffered from the rest of the world, he told Walt

that there was another 5,000 acres contiguous that

was available, and Walt said, "Buy it ." And, he

came back another time, and said that there was

another 8,000 acres somewhere else that was contiguous to the property and just expanded it . This

went on until we had over 27,000 acres, each time

Walt saying, "Buy it ." I'm not sure that Roy

190
didn't tell him at that time that we had enough

property, that we could do a world on it . As a

matter of fact, I was able to develop the information and told Walt, who was quite impressed with

it, that this piece of property is twice the size

of Manhattan Island .

I joined September 27th, and I think October 1st I

came here, under a different name, with Bob Foster,

and stayed at a hotel called the Cherry Plaza over

there on Lake Eola . The next morning we got a helicopter and went out to the property, and I was one

of the first two people to put their feet on that

27,000 acres, and was greatly impressed with the

quality of the land . Incidentally, the total purchase price of all that land was only $5 million .

Goodness knows what it's worth today because property around us is going for $30 thousand and $40

thousand an acre, and more . Some luxury property

up in the Bay Hill area is going for $100 thousand

a lot . So we have quite a financial gem on our

hands . 'Course its major value is because we

developed it in the Disney manner .

One of the Disney studio's continuing projects was

to send the Gulfstream around the country ; pick up

newspaper, radio, and TV people in an area ; bring

them to the studio ; show them the movie production

activity and Disneyland for three days at our

expense ; and they'd have lunch with Walt on the

last day . One of those, in late September, included a reporter from the Orlando Sentinel Star . At

that time in Orlando, the land purchase activity

was well known, but nobody knew who was doing it,

they thought it was Ford or other companies . Now

and again, somebody said probably Disney was active

in it . Anyhow, this little girl reporter asked

Walt, she said, "This property is being purchased

and there are rumors around that it was Disney,"

and Walt said, "No comment," which was a very bad

thing to say . So, on Sunday morning, Bob Foster

and I got up, came downstairs, and the headline

was, "We Say It's Disney ."

And the secret was out . The governor at that time

insisted that if it were Disney, he had to know it

because he was governor of the state . So, on

Monday or Tuesday there was a big meeting held in

Miami for some association that the governor was to

speak before . Bob Foster and I and Dietz Morrow,
our legal counsel from California, were there, and

the governor announced that Disney was the owner of

this land and Disney was going to build a big

project .

Subsequently, oh, I guess in January or February,

we had a big public preview at the Cherry Plaza

Hotel . Walt and Roy were there . Walt made the

announcement as to what he was going to do on the

property and his major thrust was on the

premise, the city of tomorrow . So,

really to get to work . There

on the property, probably a

acres, of five-acre plots, and

a price comparable to what we

land, which was about $185 an

sible task, and we finally got

in certain cases . There're

"outs," but only 15, 20 acres .

As I say, after Walt died we went through a period

of reorganization, and my activities still continued to be to go around and see industry . But

Roy made his mind up that he was going to go ahead

with the project, and the planning went forward on

the basis of the theme park first . I'm convinced

that if Walt had lived, we would have not only done

the theme park, but we would've started the other

activities on EPCOT at the same time, and through

the monorail exposure people would've seen EPCOT

coming out of the ground and gradually becoming a

reality.

Roy called me in one day, and he said he thought I

should go to Florida . Before that, for about a

year, I'd been coming down here once a month

because we had already started our water conservation program . This program had a main purpose of

doing two things, one, to protect the area from

floods, but also to assure the maintenance of high

water levels around the marvelous foliage we have

on the property . So, we started this project,

which now involves about 40 miles of canals and 16

structures . When I moved to Florida, one of my

main jobs was to supervise that continuing activity, which was the first job that was ever done on

this piece of property . It

28,000 acres .

The staff increased rapidly, and the theme park

192

EPCOT

that caused us

were several "outs"

couple of hundred

getting that land at

paid for the other

acre, was an imposup to $1,000 an acre

still one or two

involved the whole
Q : I see .

started under construction . In order to develop

the property we had to obtain certain governmental

rights . There was a law in Florida at that time

called Chapter 298 of the Florida statutes that

permitted the formation of what was called a

drainage district . The drainage districts basically had done just that, drained property so it

could be developed .

What we wanted was much more, of course, but we

started out with the Reedy Creek Drainage District . In the meantime we developed a master

organization plan, which eventually ended up as a

piece of legislation forming the Reedy Creek

Improvement District, passed by the legislature of

the state . The Reedy Creek Improvement District

holds all governmental authority on the property to

the exclusion of the exercise of normal county

authority on that property . We have our own zoning

authority, we have our own building code and

building department, we own streets and roads, we

can build airports if we want to . It's a comprehensive charter . I organized it, was its first

president and general manager at the same time .

Since it was a legal authority we had to operate in

a similar manner to a city or county . My office

was small, but my right hand was Sara King, who

stayed with me for seven years . She had had a

similar position with the head of the largest bank

in Florida and hence knew Florida's power

structure . She was a great help to me .

We were able to fund our projects at first by

borrowing money from Disney . Eventually we sold

$20 million worth of bonds, which paid for the

water reclamation project I described, for the

wastewater reclamation plant and other government-type projects .

Q : Did the water reclamation plan involve enlarging or

preserving the lake that goes into Disney World?

A : Bay Lake . Bay Lake was the existing lake of about

a square mile .

A : One of the first projects was the reclamation of

Bay Lake . Bay Lake's water was heavily colored by

19 3
At the same time, we constructed a lagoon of about

200 acres on which is the Polynesian Hotel and

around which goes the monorail that you rode on

yesterday . Many other important things went on at

the same time . The Reedy Creek Improvement District at that time had the job of building the

power plant, which we called the energy plant, the

water system, the electrical distribution system .

All the public utilities on the property were built

by the Reedy Creek Improvement District . Later the

company bought the energy plant and the water plant

from Reedy Creek Improvement District, and they're

now owned by the Reedy Creek Utilities Company,

which is a subsidiary of Walt Disney World .

It was a fascinating time . In 1968, Roy told me he

thought I should come down here and be the front

man for the project, and so, Mrs . Potter and I

moved down here in March of '68, bought a home, and

we've been residents here ever since, and have been

a part of the community . The most important part

of that job was that I had to get to know everybody

in the state, and since I was the only officer of

Walt Disney Productions here, I then became the

head man in the public mind, and joined organizations so that Disney would be represented in

civic organizations . I became a member of the

board of Orange Memorial Hospital and the Art

Museum, Goodwill, the Chamber of Commerce, and

others . I also became a member of the Florida

Council of 100, really a unique organization . It's

194
a prestigious organization of 100 principal businesspeople of Florida . It meets regularly and

advises the governor . Members are appointed by the

governor after recommendations of the council . In

any event it was all very good for me because

Florida has, I suppose, several hundred retired

major generals, very few of whom are known, but I

was able to start living an entirely different life

by being a part of the Disney organization, and

remained a part of that organization until 1973,

when I retired . And, with Admiral [Joseph W .]

Fowler, who built Disneyland and the theme park

here, we formed a little consulting organization

and we've been doing consulting jobs ever since .

Fortunately we've earned enough money to keep this

office, which is a place away from home when

necessary . We've had several consulting jobs and

have enjoyed life .

Q : Let me ask you a few more questions about Disney

World . Did Mr . Disney always have Florida in mind

when he first considered the construction of Disney

World? Were there other sites that he thought

about?

A : Well, ever since Disneyland was a success he'd been

importuned by other states and by foreign nations,

to build a other Disneylands . We almost built one

in St . Louis . He had a great relationship with

Augie Busch . Designs were well under way . It was

going to be in a high-rise rather than in a groundlevel place, but the project died because if you'd

been to Disneyland and inside the theme park here,

you notice that no liquor of any kind is sold, and

Walt wouldn't agree to sell beer .

Q : Is that when Busch started his own theme parks?

A : I think so, yes . It may have been, but, anyhow, it

fell by the wayside . But, very important planning

had been done . He had to design rides and attrac

tions for that possibility . Also, Walt, at the

time of the World's Fair, had never built great

rides like those he put in the World's Fair . As a

result of the Busch planning followed by the

World's Fair, Disney had four important attractions

that were relocated to Disneyland at the end of the

Fair . Mr . Lincoln, It's a Small World, and General

Electric went to Disneyland . The transportation

19 5
system at the Ford pavilion went to Disneyland, and

became the basic system for most of the future

attractions .

Walt, for two reasons, never felt that he wanted to

go somewhere else under somebody else's sponsorship, because, number one, businesswise, it wasn't

necessary to share proceeds . Second, management

might have to be shared . A number of foreign

countries that wanted him--England, Spain, many

others--but generally they were all politely told

that we didn't have the capacity to spread out .

But finally, because he was so perturbed with the

surroundings of Disneyland, he decided that the

next project would be in the eastern part of the

U .S . where he could develop a whole major piece of

property . He started to think about where it

should be . He decided that it was going to be in

the Southeast . He established a goal of 10,000

acres .

Most of our visitors to Disneyland come from west

of the Mississippi . There was a whole big untapped

market here that involved more people than lived

west of the Mississippi . I think 50 percent of the

people who come to Disneyland are repeats from

California . And, California at that time was not a

great tourist center . So, he chartered a study

aimed at finding out what incentives states in the

Southeast offered to new industries that would come

to their area . Wasn't a very thick report but it

was probably the most important report, and it was

decided that Florida was the place as against

Georgia, Alabama, or the Carolinas . Then the

place : where was it to be in Florida? Well,

there's no sense building a thing of beauty that

you want people to see unless you have transportation to it, so it had to be somewhere near the

major transportation arteries .

Bob Foster, in his first investigation to find

10,000 acres, went all the way from Fort Lauderdale

up to 50 or 60 miles north of here, and had bales

of maps that showed 10,000 acres available in about

10 sites . But, finally, the decision was made that

we would go with our present purchase . We would

put it near these two major transportation arteries, I-4 and the Florida Turnpike . They're the

only transportation arteries that lead people into

196
the center of the state and from the south to

here . I-75 comes down and joins with the Florida

Turnpike out in the north, and I-4 feeds down the

East Coast of the United States into I-95 . So the

location was to be somewhat in this area and was

not to be on the ocean . People have asked why many

times, because the ocean is an attraction . We were

an attraction . Why put two attractions in the same

place? So, it was to be in the interior of the

country, . and we're about as close to the middle as

you can get .

Q : Were there many environmental problems you had to

deal with in the development of Disney World?

A : There were none . That was before the days of the

big drive for EPA . No environmental protection

laws had ever been passed . I don't know how long

it would take us to build this thing had we

started, let's say, today .

Q : Where did the ideas come from for some of those

projects out in Disney World? Did they all come

from the Disney organization?

A : Oh, yes .

Q : They all did?

A : Oh, yeah . I told you about WED Enterprises . It's

our think tank . It's the place where in producing

a movie, there are no inhibitions on what you want

to do . Star Wars, for instance . Who, in private

industry, would ever think of building things that

were in Star Wars? The movie industry is made up

of very imaginative, creative people, and that's

how WED Enterprises started .

Q : Were there any problems in finding contractors to

do the innovative work?

A : Oh, no . We didn't do anything on the property

until we had a major union agreement with the

unions out of Washington . Our labor contract is

with them, and it's a no-strike agreement . We live

up to our side, they live up to their side .

Q Was there any local opposition to the project?

19 7
we have, there are 7,500 acres that are untouchable . They're aboriginal swamps where there are

trees and flowers and all kinds of natural environment . We will never touch 'em, we protect them,

there are no structures in them, the canals we

excavated are not visible .

19 8

A : As the area started to increase in size, more populati -on moved here, and more masses of people came

and you can imagine there were retirees down here

who didn't like their way of life disturbed . There

is some feeling along that line, but it's minimal .

Without doubt Disney has caused the expansion of

central Florida .

Q : Does Disney World provide much tax revenue for the

state of Florida?

A : We're taxed by the state just like any other industry, and also by the county . Our act, the Improvement District Act, did not take away the taxing

authority of the county . We're taxed just like any

other industry . I don't know how much we provide

to the state treasury from the 4 percent sales tax,

but it's a lot of money .

Q : So, in 1973 you left Disney World and formed

Fowler, Potter .

A : Which is not a partnership . It's an association .

Q : At that point, where was the Disney World project?

A : Finished . The theme park opened in '71 .

Q : The development of a theme park before EPCOT and so

forth, you said that was mainly Roy Disney's decision to do it that way?

A : Well, EPCOT was going to cost a lot of money . You

get money from earnings if possible, and not borrowing, so the theme park was built to provide a

source of earnings for the company, and it's been

highly successful in doing that .

Q : But, there obviously are a lot of plans on the

board to build a lot more in Disney World .

A : There's a master plan for the whole piece of

property . Incidentally, in the 28,000 acres that
Q : What kind of consultant work do you do now?

A : Mostly business consulting, not engineering so

much . I got away from being an engineer really

after the war . While I headed engineering organi

zations, I visualized my main job as administration, which attracts me, and the operation of large

organizations . The Canal Zone was such an organization . I always made sure I had top-drawer

engineers in an organization . When I was in Alaska

I bumped into a young lieutenant up there by the

name of Duncan Brown, who impressed me no end as a

top, top fellow in the Corps, and when I went to

Omaha I had him transferred from wherever he was to

Omaha, to the District there . And, when I went to

the Canal Zone, I had him transferred as chief

engineer of the Canal Zone . In that way I could

put all those responsibilities, which were major,

on him and know they were being done right, while I

devoted my time to the diplomatic part and getting

along and finding out how to get along with two

kinds of employees . Dunc Brown left the Corps

somewhat after I left the Canal Zone . If I'd been

further along here, he'd have come here, but he

joined the Tudor Organization and then became a

victim of multiple sclerosis, eventually died .

Brilliant, brilliant man .

Q : Have you kept up contacts with the Corps since you

left the military?

A : Well, I always felt that if you tried to go back to

people in the Corps for something, you were doing a

very wrong thing . And then there's a conflict of

interest statute and regulations that are severe .

I can never sit down and negotiate a contract with

anybody in the Corps for the rest of my life! Or

anybody in the Army . I can't sit in on negotiations, I can't ask for consideration of a contract,

so I've been very chary of having to do with officers in the Corps or organizations of the Corps

except on a very social basis, where no business

was involved at all . I don't believe in people

throwing their weight around, and I guess, fortunately, I might say that General [Joseph K .]

Bratton is the first Chief who I didn't know very

well and, of course, any influence I could exert is

getting less and less .

19 9
Q I'm just wondering, though, if you have any observations about ways in which the Corps may have

changed over the last oh, 50 years now, because you

joined the Corps, of course, in 1928, so a lot of

things have happened in the Army and within society

since then . Do you have any feelings about the major ways in which the Corps has changed since you

first joined?

A : Well, there's no greater admirer of the Corps than

myself . I came in in the early days, as against

where we are today, went through a great many of

the political strifes with the Bureau of Reclamation and at times when the Hoover Commission came

out with the reports, became a little bit worried

that those less than thoughtful things might be

implemented . But I got a lot of faith, as I said

before, I was standing on a lock wall with Mr .

Sherman Adams, and this subject came up, and he

said, "Oh, don't worry," he says, "if they did away

with the Corps, they'd have to reinvent it ."

I think we are one of the important, one of the

most important, organizations that exist in the

U .S . government, and not only because of the civil

things that we do, but I think more important

because of our civilian contacts, we're able to

mobilize and to do important construction jobs in

case of conflict that we couldn't do if we didn't

have the relationship with the construction industry that has always existed . I think all you have

to do is look at something like the Manhattan project to realize that it was built because we had

big-minded people in the Corps who were not fazed

by size of project, and who could get civilian

enterprise to enter jointly in building and making

it work .

I wish the American public would know more about

the capability we have . I think the Corps could do

anything! Who is doing the major works in Saudi

Arabia at the present time? We have a Division out

there . We have a Support District in the United

States . Who dredged the Suez Canal after the

Egyptians decided to open it again? That's not

well known, but I just have complete faith that

there's no project in this world the Corps couldn't

do . And a large part of that stems from our relationships with private industry, the contractors'

200
Q

organizations, the trust they have in the Corps,

and the trust we have in them .

Time and time again throughout the last three days,

I've been impressed by the fact that you seem to be

a real practitioner of public relations, and in

fact you've admitted, either explicitly or implicitly, that many of your jobs had a lot of public

relations mixed up with them . And, so my question

is, do you really like people all that much?

A : Oh, I love 'em . I think people are the greatest

things in the world, and I think I've been able to

do the jobs that I've done because of that love of

people and the joy in being with them, to be a part

of organizations, and peripherally, that sentiment

I have, and that feeling I have, has been to the

credit of whomever I was working for .

I wouldn't have been able to do those jobs had I

not been with prestigious organizations, but I was

able to help the organization because of respect

for people as people, and that's all across the

board, from politicians to industrialists to what

have you .

Q : What, do you think, in your background gave you

this ability to work with people so well? Anything

in particular?

A : Oh, I think it started, really started, in the

Kansas City District . Kansas City, as a city,

totally respects the Corps of Engineers . They take

the District Engineer into their arms, they make

him a part of the civic life of the area . I was

asked to join the Kansas City Club, which was the

only majo-r club in Kansas City . I got to know a

great many people there . I was totally dedicated

to the engineering aspects of the projects that we

had under construction in the Kansas City District,

and I made lots of talks about those projects . I

soon discovered that you can talk to the annual

meeting of the Chamber of Commerce and tell them

how great it was to have 30,000 cubic feet of water

go down the Missouri River every day . That didn't

impress them too much . The fact that navigation

could go was important . So, I gradually changed my

approach in describing projects to get away from

the Engineer vernacular and become understandable

20 1
to people who weren't Engineers, who happened to be

lawyers or shopkeepers or whatever made up the membership of the organization before which I was

speaking . And, once that came to my mind--it took

a little while to do it--I became an accepted public speaker, and I guess that started it all . I

don't know how many speeches I've made in my life,

but when you went through my West Point files you

saw there was one thick file of speeches that I've

made .

Q : That's right . A person like you who has this

ability to identify with people and who obviously

likes to be with people often goes into politics .

Have you ever thought about going into politics?

A : Ah, I've been importuned, since being in Florida,

to run for higher office, but that really doesn't,

interest me too much . For several reasons : number

one, you've got to have a campaign, and you've got

to mouth things that you may not believe in . I

think one example of why it doesn't interest me is

what happened to Mr . Moses, who once ran for governor of New York . And, he went around the state and

said what he was going to do and what had to be

done, how he was going to do it, and no matter how

unacceptable it might've been, he said, this has to

be done, et cetera . He did not reach the primaries .

So, I'm not saying that politicians are not forthright, but they've got to live with the

practicalities, and I just never want to face up to

something like that . I've accepted a great many

civic appointments, for instance, the governor

appointed me to the Greater Orlando Aviation

Authority, which had been in serious difficulty .

And, I think I was appointed to it because of,

immodestly, the stature I had in the state, but

also a reputation for doing things in the right way

and economically . But, I'd rather do that sort of

thing than be beholden to people in occupying an

elected job . I'd rather be appointed to things

than elected to things .

Q : General Potter, whenever anybody looks back on

life, he probably looks at some things he wishes he

had done a bit differently or perhaps some oppor

tunities he wishes he had taken that he didn't

take . I'm wondering, as you look back at your

20 2
A: That's quite a question, isn't it? As I told you

over lunch the other day, I consider that I've been

very, very lucky . In being lucky I've been on the

go all the time . When I came from, well, even the

fact I was suspended a year from the military academy has worked out better than if I'd graduated

with my own class, because the timing of events

that followed could not have happened if I'd graduated in 1927 . I wouldn't have gone to Nicaragua

because I would've been in Fort DuPont before that

and would've left by then .

I wanted to go to MIT and I was assigned to MIT.

There's only one school that I wanted to go to that

I used to send people to, but by the time I was

capable or free enough to go there, it was too

late . I was going somewhere else . I wanted to go

to Harvard Business School . I guess that's the

only thing I ever wanted to do that I missed, but

if you look down through my career you'll find that

I was always going from one place to another place

on call, happening to be in the right place . I was

in Kansas City when the problems started in Alaska,

and the Chief said, "Go to Alaska ." Well, I didn't

have any choice . I'd wanted to go, I'd never been

there . When I was up there Pick became Chief, and

he said, "Leave Alaska and come down and be Assistant Chief of Civil Works ." While I was there the

opportunity came to go to the War College, and then

the big flood happened on the Missouri River and

since I had been i n the Missouri River and he knew

I knew the Missouri, he said, "You go out to

Omaha ." And, then they had the problems in the

canal and--not too serious, but--Sturgis said, "Go

to the Canal Zone!" And then, the happenings there

that resulted in the hassle about being Chief

caused me to get the job with Mr . Moses and the end

result of that was meeting Walt Disney . And,

nobody could've been luckier than I in what has

happened to him during his life .

Now, I would never have wanted to be in politics .

What else is left? If I'd taken that job with the

20 3

life, whether there

liked to have done

opportunities you

are

didn't

some things you would've

differently, whether there are

take, or whatever? Do you

have any comments about things you would've done

differently if you could do them over again?
World Bank, I would've ended up being an engineertype with a little office in the World Bank reading

survey reports and economic feasibility reports and

all that sort of thing, which, to me, is a very

distasteful life . But, I had to grab at something

in those days, because I was going nowhere in the

Army after I left the Canal Zone .

So, I don't know, I've never sat down and said,

would I like to be this, that, or thus and so .

Maybe I would have liked to have been capable of

starting my own business . And, one of the main

reasons when we left--Fowler and I left Disney--was

we wanted to try being in our own business . That

resulted in one thing I didn't get in before . I

was approached to go to Iran . So I went over to

Iran for 16 days to advise people over there on the

construction of a major town just north of Bander

Abas, where the Shah wanted to build a major oil

tanker maintenance facility, the biggest in the

world . And, that would require the construction of

quite a town . I went over there and saw that the

engineers that they had doing the job were not progressing, and I reorganized the engineering

effort . The main reason I wanted to go there I'd

never been to that part of the world! And, I guess

the last chance I'd ever have to get in a country

like Iran . Incidentally, I admired what the Shah

was doing . He was really turning that country

around . It was going to become important . They

had lots of oil to fund themselves for several

years, important iron deposits, and other minerals

in the mountains . He had ambitious goals for his

country, and he would've accomplished them except

the religious issue got him, and when you interfere

with a people's religion you're stepping on quicksand . You cannot interfere with people's religion,

or their way of life, which is one of the things

our country does too much . We try to change people's lives in foreign countries . The mores of

people change only gradually in generations, they

are not changed because somebody gave 'em a billion

dollars this year for a new road . We should not

try to change people to our image or way of life .

Countries have their own history and way of life .

Their problems are not ours and they resent our

trying to move in . It distresses me .

Q : So, you are pretty satisfied with your life, I

20 4
20 5

guess . Not too many regrets or anything like that?

A : No, we have enough to live on comfortably, and

unless things really go to pot we can meet emergencies . I'm lucky to have reached the age of 75

and still be in good health as per my last physical

examination .

Q : You mentioned about our government trying to change

people's lives in other countries . Do you think

the government tries to change people's lives too

much in this country, as well?

A : Well, when I was a younger man we were not a welfare state .

Q : Is that the way you would describe it today?

A : Yes, yes . We've had a lawncare fellow here, who

when he became the proper age, said he wanted to go

on oh, I forget, on food stamps and welfare--I

don't think he had any social security, maybe he

did . We've had maids we've interviewed who don't

want to take the job because they can get more not

working . People will work for long enough to qualify as having worked and then quit . I think the

program, the idea behind the program, is excellent . The administration is awful .

Q : How would you describe yourself?

A : I think as a business executive .

Q : That's it?

A : I think ~o, yes . Now, and have been, since the

World War' . District Engineer, I was a business

executive .

Q : But, does that describe a personality as well?

A : How do you describe your personality? Only somebody else can do that . Only somebody else .

Q : Do you have any concluding observations that you'd

like to put on the record?

A : This, that I'm awfully glad that this program's

under way because my children and grandchildren
have importuned me time after time to write a

biography, and I know of other officers who have

written their bios for their children, but I've

never felt that the career of an Army officer and a

business executive and my career would have any

public interest whatsoever! I just don't feel

that . I've not been that prominent . I didn't

invent anything . While I was the governor of the

Canal Zone I was not an elected governor of a

state . That's one of the beautiful things about

being governor down there, you don't have to run

for office .

Q : Well, I thank you very much for your time .

A : Thank you .
Ackerman, Jerry, 105

Adams, Ernest C., 104

Adams, Sherman, 65, 146, 200

Alaska, 36, 47, 48, 49, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 57, 83, 199, 203

Alaska command, 49, 50

Alaska District, 47, 48, 54

Allegheny River, 13

Anaheim, 187, 190

Anchorage, 47, 48

Anderson, Jack, 185

Anderson, Sig, 80, 81, 111

Antwerp, 30, 39, 40

Arey, Will, 154

Argentina, 174

Arias, Arnulfo, 148, 149

Arkansas River, 66

Armored Force, 20

Ascaraga, Luco, 159

Asphalt Institute, 117

Association of General Contractors, 9, 50

Aurand, Henry S ., 36

Auranches, 29, 31

Bacon, Ted, 141

Balboa, 162

Balboa Theater, 172

Paldwin, Hanson, 184, 185

Barney, Keith, 103, 112, 113

Barrett, F .E ., 12

Baumhauf, Richard, 106

Bay Lake, 193

Beach Erosion Board, 173

"Beast Barracks," 2

Peloit, 1

Bernard, Julia, see Mulligan, Julia

Big Pend Dam, 85, 86

Blaffer, John H ., 156

Plue River, 98, 99

Plue Valley ladies, 96

Blue Belles, 43

Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors, 173

Board of Pardons, 130

Boykin, Frank, 61

Bradley, Omar N., 27, 28, 32, 37

Braniff, 183

Bratton, Joseph K., 199

Breidenthal, Willard, 4-3, 106, 107

Brest, 32

20 7
Brooks, Overton, 62, 66

Brown, Duncan, 150, 199

Brucker, Wilbur, 96, 155, 166, 175

Brundsdale, Clarence, 106

Building Trades Council, 181

Pull, Harold R ., 58, 74

Bunau-Varilla, Philippe, 161

Bureau if the Budget, 83, 119, 126, 132, 138, 139, 140

Bureau of Expositions International, 179

Bureau of Indian Affairs, 92, 93

Bureau of Public Roads, 118

Bureau of Reclamation, 54, 75, 83, 84, 85, 98, 118, 200

Burford, Freeman, 42

Burma, 54, 55

Burrows, Pobert P ., 157

Busch, August, 195

Cairo, 11

Cake, Ralph H ., 157

Camp Chaffee, 17, 24

Camp Cooke, 17, 18, 19, 20

Camp Pine, see Fort Drum

Cannon, Clarence, 108

Caribbean Command, 125

Carlisle Barracks, 175

Carlson, Frank, 43

Carter, Jimmy, 170

Case, Francis, 110

Casey, Hugh J ., 63, 64, 103

Cattleman's Association, 107

Chamber of Commerce treaty, 143

Chartres, 32, 33

Chelsea (Massachusetts), 1

Cherbourg, 23, 31, 32, 36, 38, 40

Cherry Plaza Hotel, 191, 192

Cheyenne (Indians), 102

Chief Joseph Dam, 12, 67

Chorpening, Claude H ., 36, 37, 57, 63, 96

Cincinnati, 11

Clarke, Bruce, 16, 17

Clay, Lucius, 35, 36, 37, 171

Cold Regions Laboratory, 52

Colombia, 160, 166, 168, 169, 170

Colon, 130, 134, 137, 140, 162, 165

Columbia University, 132

Com Z, see Communications Zone

Communications Zone, 28, 29, 31, 33, 40

Congress, U .S ., 48, 76, 78, 84, 93, 94, 136, 140

Conservative party (of Nicaragua), 7

Contractor's Hill, 167

Cookingham, Perry, 107, 113

Cornell University, 9

208
Covell, W .E .R ., 13

Cowdery, Ben, 109

167

D-Day, 28

Danelian, Danny, 65, 66

Darby, Harry, 107

Davies, Howe S ., 107

Davis, Clifford, 61

Dean, Reggie, 17

Decatur Bridge, see Mormon Bridge

de la Guardia, Ernesto, Jr ., 147, 148, 149, 154, 164

Denver, 43, 90

Devers, Jacob L ., 20, 21, 22

Disney Productions, 12, 185, 186, 187, 190, 191, 192, 194

195, 197, 198, 204

Disney, Roy, 188, 189, 190, 192, 194, 198

Disney, Walt, 71, 175, 183, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190,

191, 192, 195, 196, 203

Disneyland, 188, 190, 191, 195, 196

Dodds, Jack, 13

Dolan, Pat, 23

Donovan, William J ., 21

Drake, Neil, 42

Dulles, Allen, 69

East Bottoms, 99

Eban, Abba, 69

Edgerton, Glen E ., 157

Edward Luckenbach , 154

Eisenhower, Dwight D ., 8, 22, 23, 26, 28, 33, 43, 97, 122,

153, 163, 166

Eisenhower, Milton, 163, 164

Electrical Engineers union, 181

1138th Engineer Combat Group, 19

Elmendorf Air Force Base, 51

Ely, Bill, 14

Emsworth Dam, 10

Engineer School, 11, 14

EPCOT, see Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow

ETO, see European Theatre of Operations

European Theatre of Operations, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26,

27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42

Evans, George, 105

Everett (Massachusetts), 1

Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, 189, 192, 198

20 9

Crawford, Robert W ., 27, 30, 37

Creek, The, 179

Crooked Creek project, 13

Crosky, Robert, 100

Culebra Cut, 138, 139, 141, 143,

Curtis, Carl, 108, 110
Fay, Spofford, and Thorndike, 48, 53

Feringa, Peter A ., 56, 62

Fifth Armored Division, 17

Fifth Corps, 16

Finley, Luke, 3

First Army, 33

First Engineers, 5

Flood of 1936, 10, 13

Flood of 1937, 10, 11

Florida, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195,

196, 197, 198, 202

Florida Council of 100, 194

Florida Turnpike, 196, 197

Flushing Meadow Park, 177, 179

Fort Belvoir, 11, 14, 20, 24, 175

Fort Berthold, 92

Fort Berthold Indians, 92

Fort Dix, 5

Fort Drum, 16, 17

Fort DuPont, 4, 5, 14, 63, 203

Fort Knox, 16, 17

Fort Leavenworth, 44

Fort Leonard Wood, 45

Fort McNair, 58

Fort Myer, 24

Fort Peck Dam, 55, 77, 78, 85, 91, 92, 101, 112

Fort Randall Dam, 55, 80, 84, 85, 91, 94, 95, 105, 112

Fort Richardson, 47, 48, 51

Foss, Joe, 81, 108

2oster, Bob, 190, 191, 196

Fourth Armored Division, 16, 17

Fourth of July Avenue, 162, 163

Fowler, Joseph W ., 195, 198, 204

Fowlkes, Benny, 10, 12

Frederick Snare Corporation, 10, 11

Friends of the Earth, 68

Gable, Clark, 171

Gage, Jack, 107

Gaither, Ridgel.y, 173

Galloway, Gerald, 103, 104, 175

Garrison Dam, 55, 79, 80, 85, 91, 92, 94, 112

Garrison District 90, 91, 94, 112

Gavin's Point Dam, 80, 86, 95, 112, 115

General Accounting Office, 167

Georges Cinq Hotel (Paris), 31

Gilland, Morris W ., 41

Glasgow (North Dakota), 90, 91

Glasgow (Scotland), 22

Glen Elder Dam, 84

21 0
Goodyn, Bishop, 159

Gorgas Hospital, 8, 131

Grafton, 4, 13, 20, 43, 187

Granada, 6, 7

Grand Forks Air Force Pase, 90-91

Graytown, 6, 7

Great Basin, 76

Greater Kansas City Flood Control Committee, 43

Greater Orlando Airport, 188

Greater Orlando Aviation Authority, 202

Greenland, 64

Gross, Charlie, 7

Groves, Leslie R ., 7, 60, 175

Guardia Nacional, 163, 164

Gurney, Chan, 108

Hammarskjold, Dag, 152

Harlan County Dam, 45, 46, 110

Harlan County Reservoir, 45

Harrington, Julian F ., 158

Harvard Business School, 203

Hawley, Paul R ., 7, 35, 113

Hayes, Tommy, 104

Headquarters, European theater, 19

Herbert, Jack, 3

Hitchcock, Gilbert, 109

Hoover Commission, 65, 200

Hopkins, Harry, 11

Hotel Tivoli, 150, 153

House Flood Control Committee, 60

Hruska, Roman, 108

Huertematte, Bobby, 152

Huertematte, Dona Elisa, 165

Huertematte family, 152

Incendiary oil plant, 90

Industrial College of the Armed Forces, 58, 74

International Oceanic Study Commission, 169

Iran, 204

Itschner, Emerson (Emma), 64, 86, 87, 118, 120, 121, 172

173, 174

James River, 110

Johnson, Arlie Bell, 1

Johnson, Lyndon B . 180, 183

Johnson, Wendell, 105, 121

Jones, H .C ., 151

Kansas Basin report, 117

Kansas City, 44, 45, 46, 47, 55, 63, 75, 77, 82, 98, 104,

105, 106, 107, 112, 113, 116, 138, 190, 201, 203
y , , 43, 44, 46, 54, 55, 87, 201

Kansas River, 43, 46, 75, 97, 98, 117

Kaw River, 44, 98, 119

Keeler, Don, 10

Keller, Charlie, 9

Kennedy, John F ., 157, 178

Kerr, Robert S ., 67

Kiewit, Peter, 64, 110, 111

King, Sara, 193

Korean War, 64, 87

La Guardia, Fiorello, 176

Lake City (Missouri), 45

Lake Erie, 13, 14

Lee, John C .H ., 25, 26, 27, 28, 33, 35, 36, 40, 41

Le Havre, 30

LeMay, Curtis, 87, 88, 89

Lemnitzer, Lyman, 175

Liege, 40

Life, 96

Lincoln (Nebraska), 100

Lincoln Air Force Base, 88

Lincoln, George A ., 104

Lincoln, Lawrence, J ., 44, 104

Logistical Support of the Armies , 26

London, 20, 22, 24

64

Lotus Club, 178

Louisville, 11

Ludwig, Daniel, 171

Managua, 7, 8

Manhattan (Kansas), 43, 97, 119, 200

Marco Island, 109

Marshall, George C ., 21

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 8, 9, 203

Matthews, Captain, 5

McCarthy, Joseph, 64

McClellan-Kerr Waterway, 66, 67

McCook (Nebraska), 110

McElheny, John, 159

Mead, Margaret, 69

Meany, George, 172

Menasha (Wisconsin), 1

Menocal, 6

Mile 26 Project, 52

Milford Dam, 98, 119

Miller, Hubert, 104

212

Long, Russell B ., 170

Long Island, 177, 179

Lord, Royal, 35, 41,

Los Angeles, 19
Minot Air Force Base, 107

Minot Daily News , 107

Miraflores Locks, 140, 155

Mississippi River, 47, 60, 62, 63, 109, 115, 196

Missouri Basin, 55, 60, 77, 78, 80, 83, 85, 112, 118

Missouri Basin Compact, 78

Missouri Basin Interagency Committee, 78, 111

Missouri River, 46, 47, 54, 75, 76, 77, 86, 95, 96, 98, 101,

106, 108, 111, 115, 201, 203

Missouri River Division, 46, 47, 74, 75, 77, 79, 84, 87, 101,

103, 104, 105, 113, 117, 119, 121, 122, 138, 167

Missouri Valley Association, 109

Missouri Valley Authority, 78

MIT, see Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Mojave (Desert), 18

Moncada, Jose, 8

Monmouth, 5

Montana, 77, 78

Montgomery, Bernard L ., 27, 33, 39, 40

Montgomery Locks, 10

Mormon Bridge, 46, 101

Mormons, 101

Morris, William H ., 17

Massman, Harry, 43, 107

Morrow, Dietz, 191

Moses, Raymond G ., 37

Moses, Robert, 71, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181,

186, 187, 202, 203

MRD, see Missouri River Division

Muller, Walter J ., 33

Mulligan, Julia, 7

Mulligan, Timothy, 7, 103

Mundt, Karl, 85

My First Year at West Point , 2

My Second Year at West Point , 2

National Guard, 5, 16

National Strategic Seminar, 175

National War College, 57, 58, 69, 70, 74, 174, 203

(Nebraska) Public Power Corporation, 85

Neff, Colonel, 44

Neill, Don, 42

Neville Island, 11

New Orleans, 62, 63, 130

New Yor . : City 68, 176, 178

New York Herald Tribune , 156

New York Power Authority, 74

New York State 176, 177, 178, 184, 202

New York Times , 184

Niagara Falls, 71, 72, 73

Nicaragua, 5, 6, 7, 8, 71, 203

21 3
Nichols, Ken, 8

Nixon, Richard M ., 157, 166

Noce, Daniel, 20

North Pacific Division, 68

Oahe Dam, 55, 86, 91, 92, 94

Oahe Reservoir, 102

115

Park Avenue, 184

Parker, David S ., 129

Passamaquoddy, 64

Path Between the Seas , The , 123, 148

Patton, George S ., 24, 33, 34

Pearson, Drew, 184-185

Pendergast, Thomas, 107, 112, 113

Pennsylvania Railroad, 135, 136

People to People, 189

21 4

Office of Strategic Services, 21, 22

Office of War Information, 21, 22, 23

Ohio River, 10, 13, 14, 115

Ohio State University, 14, 15, 16

Omaha, 59, 82, 87, 96, 100, 101, 104, 109, 110, 111, 114,

116, 141, 158, 199, 203

Omaha (Beach), 20, 31, 41

Omaha Country Club, 89

Omaha District, 94, 104, 105, 114, 199

Omaha World Herald , 109

Operation Blue Jay, 64

Orange Memorial Hospital, 194

Orlando, 99, 131, 191

Orlando Sentinel Star, 191

Oshkosh Wisconsin , 1

OSS, see Office of Strategic Services

Overton, John, 62

OWI, see Office of War Information

Palm Springs, 18

Panama, 123, 127, 130, 131, 134, 140, 142, 143, 144, 145

148, 149, 151, 152, 153, 155, 159, 160, 161, 162, 165,

166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 179, 184

Panama Canal, 6, 7, 64, 71, 104, 123, 124, 126, 129,

130, 131, 139, 140, 141, 147, 148, 160, 167, 168,

169, 170, 171

Panama Canal Company, 122, 126, 139, 144, 167, 169

Panama Canal Zone, 6, 8, 61, 65, 73, 122, 125, 126,

127, 128, 129, 130, 134, 136, 137, 143, 144, 145,

146, 148, 149, 150, 152, 153, 154, 155, 158, 159,

160, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 170, 172,

173, 179, 184, 185, 199, 203, 204, 206

Panama City, 130, 134, 143, 153, 160

Panama Railroad, 134, 135

Paris, 31, 32, 33, 34, 58, 74, 179
Peterson, Howard C ., 157

Peterson, Val, 105

Pick, Lewis, 36, 37, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 64, 71

74, 75, 80, 84, 111, 119, 120, 121, 173, 203

Pick-Sloan plan, 54, 74, 75, 77, 84

Pillsburys, 102

Pilots Union, 134

Pioneer Dam, 84

Pittsburgh Engineer District, 9, 12, 13

Plank, Edward, 28, 29

Planning Division, 115

POL pipeline, 30, 32, 39, 42

POMSSV, see Preparation for Overseas Movement,

Short Sea Voyage

Pool, Harry C ., 105

Portillo, 8

Potter, Abel, 1

Potter, George, 1

Potter, nee, JoAnn, 4, 42, 45, 52, 56, 159

Potter, Joe (no relation), 4

Potter, Ruth (Ruthie T .), 4, 13, 17, 42, 52, 56, 58, 59,

103, 129, 147, 149, 150, 151, 152, 165, 173, 174 ; 194

Potter, nee, Susan, 4, 42, 45, 52, 56, 159

Potter, William Bradford, 1

Potters in America, The, 1

Preparation for Overseas Movement, Short Sea Voyage, 24

Psychological warfare battalions, 20, 21, 22

Public Works Administration, 12

PWA, see Public Works Administration

Quartermaster Corps, 18, 19, 25

Quill, James, 17

Radio Luxembourg, 22, 23

Rait, Don D ., 12

Rankin, John, 62

Rapport, Vic, 42

Ratay, John, 36

REA, see Rural Electrification Administration

Red Willow Dam, 84

Red Ball Express, 32

Reed, Charles S ., 158

Reedy Creek Drainage,District, 193

Reedy Creek Improvement District, 12, 151, 193, 194, 198

Reedy Creek Utilities Company, 194

Register of Graduates , USMA, 38

Reid, Ogden, 155

Reims, 33

"Report on Flood Protection in Kansas River Basin

Prepared for the Kansas Industrial Development

Commission," see Veatch report

21 5
Rio Grande River, 6

Rittison, Louis, 116

Riverview State Bank, 106

Robinson, Robby, 120

Rockefeller, David, 178

Rockefeller, Nelson, 179

Rockies, 76, 98, 99

Rocky Mountain Arsenal, 90

Roderick, George H ., 155

Rommel, Erwin, 18

Roosevelt, Franklin D ., 64, 144, 177, 178

Roosevelt, Theodore, 6, 123, 150, 160

Runnestrand, Paul, 146, 151 .

Rural Electrification Administration, 55, 83, 84

Russell, Richard., 61

SAC, see Strategic Air Command

St . Charles (bridge), 108

St . Lawrence (Seaway), 57, 65, 66, 71, 73

St . Lo, 29

St . Louis, 113, 195

St . Louis District, 45

St . Louis Post Dispatch , 106

St . Malo, 31, 32

Salt-Wahoo project, 100

San Carlos, 7

Sandino, Augusto, 8

158

Second Armored Corps, 19

Sedalia Air Force Base, 89

Services of Supply, 26, 27

Seventh Division (USMA) barracks, 4

Seybold, John S ., 149

SHAEF, see Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force

Shah of Iran, 170, 204

Shaler Circle, 166

Shapiro, Sid, 174

Sherwood, Robert, 22

Sibley, Alden K ., 38

Sibley, Cleland C ., 31, 36, 37, 38

Sioux (Indians), 92

Sixteenth Engineer Battalion, 16

Sixth Armored Division, 17, 19

Sloan, William G ., 54, 75, 84, 108

216

Saturday

Saudi Arabia,

Evening

0

Post , 23,

Scandia (airfield), 46

Schley, Julian L ., 156

Schull, Herman W ., 73, 158

Scott High School, 1

Scott, Stanley, 48, 50, 58

Seattle, 50, 51, 53
Smith, A1,176, 177

Smith, Dave, 151

Smith, Gloria, 151

Smith, Stephen, 178

Smokey Hill Air Force Base, 89

Smyser, Craig, 121

Snake River, 67, 68

Society of [American] Military Engineers, 105

Soil Conservation Service, 47, 82, 99, 100, 101

Somervell, Brehon, 27

Somoza, Anastasio, 8

SOS, see Services of Supply

Soucek, Ed, 105

Souris project, 99, 118

Standing Rock Sioux Indians, 102

"Starlight", 25

Styer, Wilhelm D . "Bull", 9, 12, 13

Suez Canal, 170, 200

Sultan, Dan I ., 7, 8

Sunflower Ordnance Depot, 88

Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force, 28, 29, 33

Sverdrup, Leif J ., 63, 120, 140, 158

Teller, Edward, 168

Tennessee-Tombigbee, 66

Tennessee Valley Authority, 68, 127, 128, 167

Third Army, 34

Third Locks project, 168

Toledo, 1, 2

Transportation Corps, 39

Triborough Bridge, 177

Truman, Harry S ., 45, 60, 79, 81, 121

Tucker, Bruce, 61

Tudor, Ralph, 158

Tudor organization, 199

Tupper, Tristam, 21

Tuttle Creek Dam, 43, 44, 46, 97, 98, 99, 119

TVA, see Tennessee Valley Authority

Twelfth Army Group, 28, 29, 37

Twenty-fifth Armored Engineer Battalion, 17

Twenty-fourth Engineers, 16

Twenty-second Armored Engineer Battalion, 16

Twining, Nathan F ., 49, 50

Tygart Dam, 10, 11, 12, 86

21 7

Stevens, John, 123

Stone, Martin, 183

Strategic Air Command, 46, 88, 117

Stratton, James A ., 23, 25, 26, 32, 34, 40, 41, 42,

71, 121, 168, 169

Strunk, Harry, 110

Sturgis, Samuel, 71, 87, 102, 120, 121, 122, 150, 203
58, 162, 163

7, 9, 38, 60,

Utah Beach, 20, 31

Ute Indian tribe, 92

Vaughan, Harry B ., 35

Veatch, N .T ., 116

Veatch report, 116

Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, 16

Veterans' Administration, 113, 114

Vicksburg, 77

Vietnam, 16, 41

198

Waterways Experiment Station, 112

Weather Service, 76

WED Enterprises, 197

Welland Canal, 65

West Point, see United States Military Academy

Wheeler, Raymond A ., 56, 60, 71, 173, 174

Wherry Housing Act, 108

Wherry, Kenneth S ., 108

Whipple, William, 23, 27, 30, 34, 67, 82, 181

White Horse, 52

Williston project, 99, 100, 106

Wilson Dam, 84

Winter, Everett, 109

Wittington, Will, 60, 61

Wolman, Abel, 116

World Bank, 174, 175, 204

World's Fair (1939), 179, 181

World's Fair (New York), 34, 63, 156, 174, 175, 176,

177, 178, 179, 180, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 195

Yankton, 55, 86, 96, 108

Yazoo River, 61

Yellowstone Dam, 77, 84

Yellowstone River, 75

21 8 GPO 900-926

Wagner, Charles, 10, 12, 67

Walcheren Island, 39, 40

Walt Disney World, 12, 76, 151, 152, 185, 189, 194, 197,

War Department, 22, 26

Warrior River, 66

Washington, D .C ., 20, 123, 126, 160, 162, 185

Watertown, 17

United States Department of State, 69,

164, 173, 182

United States

73, 83, 96,

Military Academy, 2, 3, 4,

103, 158, 202, 203

University of California at Berkeley, 9

University of Toledo, 2

University of Iowa, 9

University of Panama, 127