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1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.

13 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

14

15 Room 1153 B

16 William Jefferson Clinton East Building 

17 1201 Constitution Avenue Northwest

18 Washington, D.C. 20004

19

20

21

22
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1 PAGE

2 EPA PANEL 1: 9

3 WILLIAM NIEBLING, Chair, EPA

4 MISHA ADAMANTIADES, EPA

5 MATT COLIP, EPA

6

7 EPA PANEL 2: 133

8 JIM DEMOCKER, Chair, Director

9 Office of Policy Analysis and Review 

10 JIM KETHAM-COLWILL, Office of Policy

11 Analysis and Review

12 GLENN SHERIFF, National Center for

13 Environmental Economics and

14 the Office of Policy

15

16 EPA PANEL 3: 340

17 PETER TSIRIGOTIS, EPA, Chair

18 BILL IRVING, EPA

19 BILL STEVENS, EPA

20 Morning Session 9

21 Afternoon Session 133

22 Evening Session 340
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1 I N D E X

2 PAGE

3 BEN TOPIEL, student George Washington Univ. 15

4 ZOE BERKERY, Business Council for Stable 19

5 Energy

6 KRISTIN COOK, Montgomery County Resident 25

7 JOELLE NOVEY, Interfaith Power and Light 29

8 MALLORY YATES, West Virginia Coal Forum 34

9 CONGRESSMAN DAVID MCKINLEY, West Virginia 37

10 BRIDGETT CHADWICK, Wyncote, PA Resident 41

11 CECILIA CALVO, U.S. Conference of Catholic 43

12 Bishops

13 BRIAN LEVY, Washington, D.C. Resident 49

14 STARLA YEH, National Resources Defense Council 52

15 WALTON SHEPHERD, Natural Resources Defense 57

16 Council 

17 KELLY BENJAMIN, Physicians for Social 62

18 Responsibility

19 GENE KARPINSKI, League of Conservation Voters 66

20 MATTHEW MARTIN, We Act for Environmental 72

21 Justice

22 NIKKI SILVESTRI, Green for All 75
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1 I N D E X (continued)

2 PAGE

3 KATHERINE STAINKEN, Solar Energy Industry 79

4 Association

5 ASHLEY GOFF, Church of the Pilgrims 85

6 STACY DAVIS, Center for Clean Air 90

7 JOHN NOEL, Clean Water Action 95

8 JIM LYON, National Wildlife Federation 100

9 ELLEN BARFIELD, Baltimore Resident 104

10 MONICA WARD, Eskabubble 108

11 BRADEN BOULANGER, TransAlta 113

12 HIRUY HADGU, Nuclear Engineer 116

13 DAWONE ROBINSON, Chesapeake Climate Action 118

14 at Work

15 ED ABLARD, Organizing for Action 122

16 ELLIOTT LONG, Small Business Majority 126

17 DR. JALONNE WHITE-NEWSOME, We Act 139

18 CHERLY PYRCH, Feldman Presbyterian Church 144

19 REVEREND MARJANI DELE, Interfaith Power and 148

20 Light

21 EMMETT MCKINNEY, Sierra Club 153

22 DONNA MCDOWELL, Sierra Club 158
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1 I N D E X (continued)

2 PAGE

3 LIZ SCHMITT, Sojourners 162

4 POUNE SABERI, University of P.A. Hospital 168

5 ELLEN ZIESENHENE, Environment America 174

6 DAVID KEPLEY, Providence Presbyterian Church 177

7 EVA MUSZYNSKI, Virginia Resident 182

8 JOSE AGUTO, Friends Committee on National 185 

9 Legislation

10 REV. DARRIEL HARRIS, Baltimore Food & Faith 191

11 REV. RICHARD CIZIK, Interfaith Power & Light 195

12 MARY MINETTE, Evangelical Lutheran Church in 200

13 America

14 SARAH VIA, University of Maryland 206

15 GARY EWART, American Thoracic Society 212

16 TRICIA BRUCKBAUER, Creation Justice 217

17 Ministries 

18 ANGUS CRANE, North American Insulation 222 

19 Manufacturers’ Association. 

20 CYNTHIA ADAMS, Concerned citizen 226

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1 I N D E X (Continued)

2 PAGE

3 LARRY MONROE, Research and Environmental 233

4 Affairs at Southern Company

5 ANTHONY VANCE, Bahai Office of 238

6 Public Affairs

7 SARAH SAYLOR, Concerned citizen 244

8 LISA VAN SUSTEREN, Concerned citizen 248

9 MAYLINE MOENCH, Utah Physicians for a 253

10 Healthy Environment

11 JESSICA ECKDISH, Sierra Club 258

12 BARBARA SCHLACHTER, Episcopal priest,Iowa 263

13 RIANNA ECKEL, Concerned citizen 268

14 LIA KURIHARA, Environment America 272

15 SUSAN GUY, Christian Church, 275

16 Disciples of Christ

17 ISABELLA LEVY, Sierra Club, D.C. 280

18 KARISSA GERHKE, Concerned citizen 285 

19 BARBARA GOTTLIEB, Physicians for Social 289

20 Responsibility 

21 GERARD NEELY, Physicians for Social 295

22 Responsibility
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1 I N D E X (Continued)

2 PAGE

3 ADAM CARPENTER, Concerned citizen 299

4 DOUG O’MALLEY, Environment New Jersey 303

5 KRISTIN BARKER, Concerned citizen 310

6 HUGH PITCHER, Concerned citizen 314

7 RODNEY SOBIN, Research & Regulatory 319

8 Affairs, The Alliance to Save Energy

9 DONALD GOLDBERG, Climate Law & Policy 325

10 Project here in Washington

11 GREG BERTELSEN, National Association 329

12 of Manufacturers

13 LAUREN VAN VLIET, Concerned citizen 335

14 CARL GLINCENSTEN, Concerned citizen 346

15 AMANDA RONES, Concerned citizen 349

16 ANN DIXON, Protecting Our Waters. 351

17 KEITH SCHUE, Sustainable Oswego 356

18 RICHARD NUNNO, DC Chapter of 363

19 the Sierra Club

20 DALE LOUDA, CHP Association 367

21 TONYA WINDERS, Allergy & Asthma Network 372

22 SHEILA HOLMAN, NCDENR 376
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1 I N D E X (Continued)

2 PAGE

3 DR. ANA PRADOS, University of Maryland, 382

4 Baltimore County

5 LINDA SILVERSMITH, League of Women Voters 386

6 of Maryland

7 TYSON SLOCUM, Public Citizen’s 391

8 Energy and Climate Program

9 JAYDEE HANSON, Caretakers for God’s 397

10 Creation

11 ERIK BACKUS, Lutherans Restoring Creation 403

12 SOPHIE GOLONE, Religious Action Center 408

13 of Reform Judaism

14 EUGEN M. TRISKO, ESQ., United Mine 413

15 Workers of America

16 JIM WEYLIE, Concerned citizen 418

17 FERNANDO CAZARES, Concerned citizen 421

18 BRENDA MULLER, Concerned citizen 425

19 ROBERT CLEAVES, Biomass Power Association 426

20 JACKIE PATTERSON, Concerned citizen 429

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1 MORNING SESSION

2 MR. NIEBLING: Good morning. My name is 

3 William Niebling and I’m one of the chairs of 

4 today’s public hearing so thank you for coming 

5 today and joining me on the panel this morning 

6 are Misha Adamantiades and Matt Colip. We’re 

7 here today to listen to your comments on two 

8 proposed rules to reduce to carbon pollution from 

9 power plants.

10 As a quick aside, we have two people here 

11 who I think are ready to speak, and so we’ll do 

12 that and if we have more we’ll continue. And if 

13 not we’ll just take a brief recess.

14 EPA announced both of these proposed 

15 rules on June 2nd of 2014. These rules deal with 

16 power plants, which are the largest source of 

17 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

18 for roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse 

19 gas emissions. 

20 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

21 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

22 proposal consists of two main parts, state 
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1 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from the 

2 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

3 develop their plans for meeting the goals. The 

4 proposal gives states flexibility in determining 

5 how to meet their goals. The states will choose 

6 what goes into their plans to show how they will 

7 achieve the needed reductions and meet their 

8 goals by 2030.

9 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

10 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

11 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

12 set emissions limits for two groups of power 

13 plants, those that make physical or operational 

14 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

15 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

16 that replace components to such an extent that 

17 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

18 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

19 facility. 

20 If you'd like more details on either of 

21 these proposed rules there are fact sheets 

22 available near the registration desk.
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1 Today's hearing is one of four public 

2 hearings across the country this week on the two 

3 proposed rules. We've had tremendous interest in 

4 each of the hearings and I'd like to thank you 

5 for taking time out of your day today to join us 

6 and share your comments.

7 We have a lot of people signed up to 

8 speak today who hopefully will come to speak, and 

9 we want to hear from all of you. So before we 

10 get started I'd like to go through a few 

11 housekeeping items and ground rules to make sure 

12 today's hearing went smoothly.

13 First, please be sure that you've checked 

14 in at the registration desk, even if you're not 

15 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

16 speak online or by phone and haven't yet told us 

17 that you're here, please step out to the 

18 registration desk and let the EPA staff there 

19 know that you've arrived.

20 Second, if you're a speaker you were 

21 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

22 or Room B. This is Room B. So please make sure 
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1 you're in the right room. 

2 All right. So here's how the hearing 

3 will work today. I will call speakers up in 

4 pairs and when your name is called, please come 

5 to the table here at the front of the room. When 

6 I call on you to speak please state your name and 

7 spell it, which will help the court reporter 

8 immensely. 

9 Your comments will be transcribed and 

10 included in the record of comments on the 

11 proposed rule. Each speaker will have five 

12 minutes to give comments. We have a light here 

13 to let you know how much time you have left to 

14 speak. When the light turns from green to yellow 

15 that means you have one minute remaining. When 

16 it turns red, that's a signal to wrap up your 

17 testimony. 

18 When you're finished speaking please 

19 remain at the tarble until the person next to you 

20 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

21 to listen to you today, however one of the panel 

22 members may ask you questions to clarify your 
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1 comments. 

2 I will then call up the next pair of 

3 speakers and so on and so forth. If you've 

4 brought a written copy of your testimony, please 

5 give that to the staff at the registration desk 

6 before you leave today.

7 Because we have a large number of people 

8 who have signed up to speak today, and to be fair 

9 to everyone, we may have to strictly enforce the 

10 five minute limit. If you have additional 

11 comments you would like to make you can submit 

12 them in writing and I can assure you that EPA 

13 gives just as much consideration to comments we 

14 receive in writing as we do to comments we 

15 receive at public hearings like this one. 

16 So if you have more that you would like 

17 to say, please submit it. Your comments will be 

18 reviewed. 

19 There's still plenty of time to get 

20 written comments in and there are comment cards 

21 available at the registration desk. Written 

22 comments must be received by October 16th, 2014, 
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1 and we'll put any comments submitted today in the 

2 official docket for the proposed rule. 

3 Instructions for submitting comments in 

4 other ways are available at the materials table 

5 near the registration desk.

6 We are scheduled to go until about 8:00 

7 p.m. tonight. We'll take a lunch and dinner 

8 break so that everyone can get something to eat. 

9 Right now the lunch break is scheduled for around 

10 noon and then a dinner break at 5:00 p.m. 

11 In addition, we may take occasional 

12 breaks during the sessions as needed. We'll keep 

13 you posted on that. 

14 If you have any questions during the day 

15 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

16 somebody will try to help you.

17 Finally, I would like to ask each of you 

18 to please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

19 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

20 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

21 all of you. So that we can do that we ask that 

22 everyone listen quietly. We want to hear from 
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1 everyone who is signed up to speak.

2 Thank you again for taking the time to 

3 share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. So 

4 let's get started.

5 Here, at the moment, we have Zoe Berkery 

6 and Ben Topiel. I hope I got those right. And 

7 we will run the clock, but we obviously don't 

8 have a long line here, so please don't feel 

9 unusually stressed about --

10 MS. BERKERY: All right. Mine should be 

11 right under five minutes. So, you can go ahead 

12 if you want.

13 MR. TOPIEL: Thanks. Hello. My name is 

14 Ben Topiel. My last name is spelled T-O-P-I-E-L. 

15 I'm a student at George Washington 

16 University, and I come here today in support of 

17 the Clean Power Plan.

18 I grew up in Southern New Jersey and 

19 spending long summer days at the beach with my 

20 family are some of my happiest memories. And 

21 along with my sister, my cousins, and I, and my 

22 friends, we spent hours making elaborate 
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1 fortresses in the sand and boogie boarding in the 

2 ocean. And in the mornings my father took us to 

3 our favorite bakery for warm homemade donuts.

4 But because with the increase of these 

5 severe storms and like Hurricane Sandy and other 

6 extreme weather effects like drought, so many 

7 other kids will not get to enjoy the same 

8 wonderful innocent memories that I did.

9 Excuse me. And because of the air 

10 pollution and extreme heat my cherished childhood 

11 memories were also missed with darker, less happy 

12 ones. My mom, sister, and others in my family 

13 suffer from asthma, which has threatened their 

14 lives on many occasions. 

15 I still remember a particularly vivid 

16 time when I was eight years old and I was at the 

17 shore with my family and my mom began to wheeze, 

18 and soon she could barely breathe. She was 

19 having a severe asthma attack and before long she 

20 was rushed to the hospital. Luckily she's okay, 

21 but sadly many other New Jersians share this 

22 story and statewide 500,000 adults and more than 
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1 200,000 children suffer from asthma.

2 Besides being a New Jersian I also belong 

3 to a generation that is keenly aware of the 

4 realities of climate change. At 10 years old I 

5 bought a book on global warming at my school book 

6 fair. I remember sitting in my bedroom reading 

7 about the science of the greenhouse effect, and 

8 how humans are causing changes to the climate in 

9 ways our Earth had never seen before.

10 This type of story is not uncommon among 

11 people my age. My generation is not only 

12 educated on climate change but compelled to take 

13 the necessary action needed to address this grave 

14 challenge. We aren't growing up in a world 

15 endowed with a seemingly infinite cheap energy 

16 supply, or one that is unaware of damaging 

17 consequences burning fossil fuels has for 

18 ourselves and the people we care about.

19 We recognize that using renewable energy 

20 isn't just about protecting future generations 

21 from the perils of climate change, it's also 

22 about preventing our health today from other 
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1 harmful pollutants, from carbon dioxide and other 

2 harmful pollutants spewing from fossil fuel fired 

3 power plants. 

4 And although the problems of climate 

5 change have moved firmly into the present, its 

6 solutions provide a power opportunity to 

7 reenergize our economy, protect our citizens, and 

8 lead the world in innovation and social justice. 

9 The Clean Power Plan will also stimulate 

10 investments in efficiency and renewable energy 

11 sources such as wind and solar, and creating jobs 

12 of the future, and also building an energy system 

13 that is safer and more resilient.

14 Fortunately we have the tools and dollars 

15 to tackle this challenge in climate change, yet 

16 corporate polluters and legislative inaction 

17 obstruct these solutions from being implemented. 

18 That is why I strongly support the EPA for taking 

19 this action -- for this action against climate 

20 change because it is not only a good first step 

21 in limiting carbon pollution, but it will also 

22 spark climate action and innovation around the 
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1 world.

2 I urge the EPA to finalize the rule so 

3 that we can all have a healthier and more 

4 prosperous present and future. Thank you.

5 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Ben. Zoe.

6 MS. BERKERY: Hi. My name is Zoe 

7 Berkery. That's Z-O-E and then B-E-R-K-E-R-Y. 

8 So thank you for the opportunity to 

9 participate in this public hearing on the 

10 Environmental Protection Agency's proposed Clean 

11 Power Plan for regulating carbon dioxide 

12 emissions from existing power plant sources. 

13 My name is Zoe Berkery and I am manager 

14 of federal policy for the Business Council for 

15 Sustainable Energy.

16 The Business Council for Sustainable 

17 Energy is a coalition of companies and trade 

18 associations from the energy efficiency of 

19 renewable energy and natural gas sectors, and 

20 also includes independent electric power 

21 producers and investor owned utilities. 

22 Founded in 1992, when the Council 
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1 advocates for policies at the state, national, 

2 and international levels that increase the use of 

3 commercially available clean energy technologies, 

4 products, and services. 

5 The coalition's diverse business 

6 membership is united around the revitalization of 

7 the economy and the creation of a secure and 

8 sustainable energy future for America.

9 Prior to the release of the proposed 

10 Clean Power Plan BCSE has actively engaged with 

11 the EPA on the development of the regulation, 

12 including providing written comments in December 

13 2013. 

14 BCSE applauds the EPA's release of the 

15 proposed Clean Power Plan. It demonstrates that 

16 the United States is prepared to take meaningful 

17 steps to address climate change. Decisions made 

18 in corporate boardrooms and on main streets 

19 across the United States provide confidence that 

20 the business sector has never been better 

21 prepared than we are today to step up to the 

22 challenge of climate change and meet emissions 
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1 reduction targets.

2 The mix of energy supply is changing 

3 rapidly, with low carbon sources gaining market 

4 share. At the same time energy consumption is 

5 down, despite overall economic growth. This 

6 means that implementing the new limits on 

7 greenhouse gas emissions could be easier than 

8 some have suggested.

9 According to the Sustainable Energy in 

10 America Fact Book from Bloomberg New Energy 

11 Finance and BCSE, the use of lower and CO carbon 

12 energy sources has grown. Natural gas production 

13 and consumption hit an all time high in 2013, and 

14 94 percent of all new electric power capacity 

15 built in the U.S. since 1997 has come in the form 

16 of natural gas plants, or renewable energy 

17 facilities.

18 Thus the use of these viable and 

19 affordable clean energy technologies and the 

20 energy efficiency, renewable energy, and natural 

21 gas sectors offer commercially available options 

22 to reduce emissions. 
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1 The Council would like to thank the EPA 

2 for using output based metrics in establishing 

3 the standard and for adopting a system-wide 

4 approach to compliance which will allow renewable 

5 energy, natural gas, and efficiency to play a 

6 role in helping states meet their emission 

7 reduction targets. 

8 BCSE strongly supports the inclusion of 

9 state flexibility in the proposed rule. States 

10 have the freedom to craft their own compliance 

11 pathway to meet their state target which is 

12 critical for cost effective compliance. 

13 However, there are a number of areas on 

14 the proposed rule that the BCSE seeks further 

15 clarification. For example, how will interstate 

16 energy imports and exports count towards meeting 

17 a state's target? 

18 In previous discussions with EPA 

19 officials it has been indicated that the entity 

20 responsible for the investment should get the 

21 credit. But BCSE members seek clarity on this 

22 point in the final rule. Related to this BCSE 
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1 members also seek clarity on how to account for 

2 the sale or purchase of renewable energy credits.

3 Secondly, do states have a disincentive 

4 to act before the start of the compliance period 

5 in 2020, or between the 2020 and 2029 interim 

6 compliance period? BCSE is concerned that the 

7 proposed Clean Power Plan as currently formulated 

8 might provide a disincentive for energy 

9 efficiency and renewable energy investments prior 

10 to 2020.

11 Additionally, BCSE is pleased to see 

12 demand side energy efficiency listed as a 

13 compliance mechanism. However, BCSE plans to 

14 comment on the need for further information on 

15 the evaluation measurement and verification, EM 

16 and V, on how these efforts will be adequately

17 credited. 

18 Guidance for EM and V for renewables has 

19 been requested as well.

20 Finally another issue identified has to 

21 do with private sector or non-utility rate payer 

22 delivered efficiency. Energy efficiency programs 
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1 or those run by utilities, are provided with 

2 methodological guidance under the rule. However, 

3 energy efficiency projects, or those done by 

4 energy savings performance contracts, ESP's, or 

5 building projects the city does in support of its 

6 local goals needs additional guidance. 

7 BCSE views the proposed Clean Power Plan 

8 as a historic opportunity to build upon current 

9 trends in the U.S. energy sectors and diversify 

10 the nation's energy portfolio. This will lead to 

11 increased energy security, job creation, and a 

12 stronger economy. The economic opportunities for 

13 states and industry alike are significant and 

14 BCSE looks forward to working with you to refine 

15 to the rule and move forward in this process. 

16 Thank you for your time.

17 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Zoe. And we 

18 appreciate your proposal and for the written 

19 comments about how to account for some of those 

20 aspects that you raised.

21 MS. BERKERY: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, ma'am. Next 
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1 we'd like to invite up Kristin Cook and Joelle 

2 Novey, please.

3 MS. COOK: Good morning. My name is 

4 Kristin Cook and I'm a resident of Montgomery 

5 County, mother of three, and conserving our best.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Would you --

7 MS. COOK: I'm here today to applaud 

8 the --

9 MR. NIEBLING: Kristin, I'm sorry, would 

10 you please spell Kristin Cook?

11 MS. COOK: Kristin Cook?

12 MR. NIEBLING: Yes. Thank you.

13 MS. COOK: K-R-I-S-T-I-N Cook, C-O-O-K.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

15 MS. COOK: I'm here today to applaud the 

16 EPA for its proposal to cut carbon emissions from 

17 existing power plants. 

18 For some who fully understand the current 

19 state of our environment, especially in terms of 

20 the climate, those new proposed rules don't go 

21 far enough. But I'm here to say it's a solid 

22 start and ask you to stay strong in your mission. 
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1 I understand there's plenty of resistance to your 

2 proposal, so you must stay strong in your 

3 convictions.

4 As I see it there are too many reasons 

5 why it is imperative that these new regulations 

6 get passed and go into effect immediately, 

7 economic and more. 

8 Economic. I'd like to read some of floor 

9 Treasury Secretary Robert Ruben's recent 

10 Washington Post opinion piece. Hopefully you've 

11 read it, but here it goes.

12 When it comes to the economy much of the 

13 debate about climate change and reducing the 

14 greenhouse gas emissions that are fueling it is 

15 framed as a trade-off between the environmental 

16 protection and economic prosperity. Many people 

17 will argue that moving away from fossil fuels and 

18 reducing carbon emissions will impeded economic 

19 growth, hurt business, and hamper job creation.

20 But from an economic perspective that's 

21 precisely the wrong way to look at it. The real 

22 question should be, what is the cost of inaction. 
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1 In the view of growing group of business people 

2 economic economists -- excuse me -- and other 

3 financial and market experts, the cost of 

4 inaction over the long-term is far greater than 

5 the cost of action. 

6 A new report led by a highly respected 

7 group of economists and climate scientists 

8 demonstrated significant harm that climate change 

9 is already causing now. And that will most 

10 certainly be far more severe in the future to the 

11 agriculture, energy, and coastal property 

12 sectors, as well as to public health and labor 

13 and productivity more generally.

14 For example, by 2050 between 48 million 

15 and 68 billion worth of current property in 

16 Louisiana and Florida is likely to be at risk of 

17 flooding because it will be below sea level. And 

18 that's just a baseline estimate. There are other 

19 scenarios that could be more catastrophic.

20 Then of course there's unpredictable 

21 damages from super storms yet to come. Hurricane 

22 Katrina and Hurricane Sandy caused a combination 
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1 of 193 billion in economic losses. The 

2 congressional aid packages that followed both 

3 storms cost more than 122 billion. 

4 And dramatically rising temperatures in 

5 much of the country will make it too hot for 

6 people to work outside during parts of the day 

7 for several months each year, reducing employment 

8 and economic output, and causing as many as 

9 65,000 additional heat related deaths each year.

10 So the U.S. economy faces enormous risk 

11 from unmitigated climate change. But the metrics 

12 we currently use to measure economic growth, 

13 fiscal prospects, and business earnings do not 

14 incorporate these risks.

15 If we're going to have a well-informed 

16 and accurate debate about the economic process of 

17 action versus inaction, the public and private 

18 sectors need to honestly reflect climate related 

19 risk.

20 So a lot of times we do not face a choice 

21 between protecting our environment or protecting 

22 our economy. We face a choice between protecting 
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1 our economy by protecting our environment. Or 

2 allowing environmental havoc to create economic 

3 havoc. 

4 Finally, our moral obligation, the United 

5 Nations has called climate change an existential 

6 threat to human existence, and yet the fossil 

7 fuel industry's business plan calls for as much 

8 exploitation for and development of fossil fuels 

9 as possible. This is just immoral. At a certain 

10 point we have to say that we will not be part of 

11 this. Thank you.

12 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Kristin. 

13 MS. NOVEY: Joelle Novey, J-O-E-L-L-E 

14 Novey, N-O-V-E-Y. And I'm the Director of 

15 Interfaith Power and Light.

16 Through Interfaith Power and Light 

17 hundreds of local congregations of all religious 

18 traditions work together on energy and climate 

19 issues. This morning I am only one of over two 

20 dozen religious voices you will hear speaking out 

21 in support of strong safeguards on carbon 

22 pollution from power plants. These voices come 
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1 from nine Christian denominations and six other 

2 faith traditions, Baha'i, Buddhist, Hindu, 

3 Jewish, Muslim, and Unitarian Universalist.

4 I'm speaking also with a stack of 

5 postcards that good folks signed in support of 

6 the Clean Power Plan on card tables after 

7 services in their congregations throughout our 

8 region.

9 And we are joined by religious voices 

10 around the country who are participating in the 

11 EPA's other hearings.

12 The teaching from my own tradition that 

13 informs my thoughts on carbon pollution come from 

14 Rabbi Isaac Ben Sheshet, a 14th Century scholar 

15 of Jewish law. He wrote, "One is forbidden from 

16 gaining a livelihood at the expense of another's 

17 health." Simple ethical wisdom. Not bad for the 

18 Middle Ages.

19 For too long, here, now, those who 

20 operate our power plants have been permitted to 

21 gain their livelihoods at the expense of people's 

22 health. There have been limits on other kinds of 
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1 pollutants, but there have been no limits at all 

2 on carbon pollution. 

3 Here in D.C. we have one of the nation's 

4 highest asthma rates, particularly among 

5 children. Nearly 14,000 children in our nation's 

6 capitol city sometimes struggle to breathe 

7 because of our dirty air. Someone is making 

8 their living at the expense of these kids' 

9 health.

10 We'll be hearing from polluters at these 

11 hearings, saying that any limits on carbon 

12 pollution will interfere with their jobs. And 

13 they have every right to make an honorable 

14 living. But it should be forbidden in this 

15 country for anyone to make their livelihood at 

16 the expense of people’s health.

17 In the religious communities with which I 

18 work people are heart sick about the role of 

19 fossil fuels in producing the heat-trapping gases 

20 that are causing climate change. They are 

21 working to reduce their electric use in their 

22 sanctuaries and at home. They are climbing up on 
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1 ladders to change to more efficient light bulbs, 

2 they are working together to support clean energy 

3 through their energy bills, they fought hard to 

4 bring off-shore wind power to Maryland's coast, 

5 and they are willing to spend many hours in 

6 committee meetings figuring out how to finance 

7 solar panels for their roofs.

8 So often we are told that the change we 

9 are trying to make is unrealistic because clean 

10 energy is so expensive, while dirty energy is 

11 cheap. But who pays for dirty energy? Who bears 

12 the cost of bad air quality, the cost of kids 

13 with asthma, of seniors having heart attacks, of 

14 pregnant mothers with mercury in their bodies. 

15 Who bears the cost of stronger storms, extreme 

16 drought, devastating floods, and other scary 

17 weather caused by climate change? 

18 Any energy we pay for through the 

19 permanent destruction of our climate, any energy 

20 people pay for with their health, isn't cheap 

21 energy. It is intolerably expensive. 

22 Another idea I heard expressed in these 
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1 hearing rooms yesterday was that so long as other 

2 nations in the world are still producing so much 

3 carbon pollution with their power plants there's 

4 no point for us in the U.S. to bother to do 

5 anything about carbon pollution from our power 

6 plants. 

7 In my religious community it would never 

8 occur to me to make this line of moral argument 

9 in my own life. I know I can't explain to my 

10 rabbi that I am not going to stop stealing until 

11 absolutely everyone else in Washington, D.C. has 

12 stopped stealing. 

13 And you can check with them, but I don't 

14 think any one of the 26 other religious leaders 

15 who are speaking at these hearings would be 

16 impressed to hear a member of their own

17 congregations explain that he or she is not 

18 responsible for harming others because everyone 

19 else is doing it.

20 We in this country produce a quarter of 

21 the heat-trapping climate pollution that is 

22 warming our Earth and causing suffering for our 
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1 neighbors close to home and around the world. If 

2 our religious voices add only one thing to these 

3 hearings, let it be the clarity that we in this 

4 nation are called to do right on this issue 

5 regardless of what anyone else in the world is 

6 doing.

7 On this historic morning the EPA stands 

8 poised to set national limits on our nation's 

9 single largest source of carbon pollution. 

10 Please proceed to swiftly approve and implement 

11 the Clean Power Plan.

12 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And if you 

13 would please deliver those comments to us or to 

14 the registration desk --

15 MS. NOVEY: Okay.

16 MR. NIEBLING: -- we'll make sure they 

17 get reflected in the docket.

18 Next we'd like to invite up, please, 

19 Mallory Yates and Represenative David McKinley.

20 MS. YATES: Good morning. My name is 

21 Mallory Yates and I live in Charleston, West 

22 Virginia. I'm here today representing the West 
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1 Virginia Coal Forum. 

2 The Coal Forum is a group of labor and 

3 industry people that work together to tackle the 

4 issues in the coal fields. 

5 I am here today to voice my concern on 

6 the impact the proposed regulations would have on 

7 West Virginia coal miners. I have family and 

8 friends that are coal miners and I work in an 

9 office that tries to keep them safe. So when my 

10 family and friends have to live off the 

11 government Obama's plan will result in the loss 

12 of 45,000 jobs by 2020 and twice that by 2030. 

13 Who will be paying for this? We, the American 

14 people will.

15 This plan will bring higher utility bills 

16 for our families which would harm those already 

17 struggling to pay their electric bills. We will 

18 see an increase in manufactured goods because of 

19 increases in production and transportation costs. 

20 It would also, fewer tax payers, fewer 

21 tax dollars, and thousands will lose their jobs 

22 and the ability to take care of their families. 
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1 The EPA rules will hurt the states where coal 

2 production is central to the economy, and that is 

3 why we are against these rules.

4 As Joe Watts, the administrator of the 

5 West Virginia Coal Forum stated, "This rule is 

6 coupled with other recent emission related 

7 regulations promulgated by the U.S. Environmental 

8 Protection Agency."

9 This has forced the closure or planned 

10 closure of hundreds of power plants across the 

11 country as coal powered power plants close the 

12 need for West Virginia coal to power them and the 

13 thousands of miners who produce it, goes away.

14 The impact of these rules is already 

15 having an impact in West Virginia. The net 

16 result in our state alone is the loss of 3,500 to 

17 4,000 direct mining jobs, and potentially as many 

18 as 20,000 mining dependent jobs. So I urge the 

19 EPA to reconsider these rules and to convene an 

20 actual stakeholder's meeting to discuss how best 

21 to proceed.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Mallory. 
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1 CONGRESSMAN MCKINLEY: Thank you. Thank 

2 you, Mr. Chairman.

3 I'm Congressman David McKinley and I 

4 represent the people of the First District of 

5 West Virginia. I'm here to be the voice of the 

6 families who are among the expanded casualties of 

7 this war on coal. 

8 Some say this war on coal doesn't exist; 

9 that it's a figment of our imagination. But when 

10 we in West Virginia hear the words of President 

11 Obama's administration saying, "Coal makes us 

12 sick. Coal is our worst nightmare," what else 

13 are we supposed to interpret? That conclusion is 

14 easily drawn.

15 To the unelected bureaucrats of the EPA I 

16 say, come to my district, come to West Virginia, 

17 come to the coal fields all across America. 

18 You'll find thousands of men and women and 

19 children whose lives have been ripped apart by 

20 the actions of the EPA. 

21 Obama and his EPA have shown a callous 

22 disregard for the hardworking Americans they are 
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1 hurting with excessive regulations. These 

2 families are not statistics. They're people. 

3 They're families. They're husbands and wives, 

4 moms and dads, neighbors and friends. The coal 

5 mines and power plants threatened by these new 

6 regulations are not in Chicago, New York, or Los 

7 Angeles. They're in small towns, like 

8 Mannington, Farmington, Benwood, Grafton. Just 

9 in West Virginia alone.

10 These are places where I go home every 

11 weekend. I see the look on the face of a 50 year

12 old coal miner who has lost his job. It's the 

13 only job he's ever known. It's a good job for 

14 him and his family to take care of his children. 

15 Where else would he find work?

16 I talked to the wife a worker at the coal 

17 fired power house that's been shuttered. How are 

18 they going to put food on their table? These are 

19 small towns. If you shut down a coal mine or a 

20 power plant, you shut down an entire community. 

21 In many places these are the only jobs available. 

22 There are consequences to this anti-coal agenda; 
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1 this war on coal. There really are consequences.

2 Of course we all want clean air and we 

3 want fresh water. But we need to achieve it in a 

4 way that doesn't oppose a crushing cost on the 

5 hardworking American families. The impact will 

6 be felt far beyond West Virginia and the other 

7 coal producing areas. We're just the front line 

8 in this war on coal.

9 The increased cost of electricity will be 

10 borne by those who can least afford it. Seniors 

11 on fixed income, low income families. It will 

12 make manufacturers less competitive. You all are 

13 aware of that. You understand that. This will 

14 lead to more good paying jobs going offshore to 

15 where other countries, where they're continuing 

16 to burn coal. While we're going away from coal, 

17 foreign countries are increasingly turning to it. 

18 Look at China, increasing production by 

19 60 percent of their coal emissions. India, with 

20 50 percent increase emissions over the next 17 

21 years. Germany opening up 22 more coal fired 

22 power plants. They understand that the 
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1 affordable dependable energy is key to economic 

2 growth. 

3 All of this argument reminds me of the 

4 quote from a leadership expert, John Maxwell, who 

5 said, "He who thinks he is leading but has no 

6 followers is merely a man taking a walk."

7 And I want to suggest to the EPA and the 

8 President, to look over their shoulders. You're 

9 going to find that no one is following. The rest 

10 of the world is not embarking on this mission. 

11 The Administration is simply handicapping our own 

12 competitiveness so it can feel good about doing 

13 something. I'm not going to sit here and say 

14 climate isn't changing. We know it is. The 

15 question is what's the appropriate response. 

16 Let's be realistic. These regulations 

17 being proposed for coal fired power plants are 

18 impractical, unattainable, and avoidable. Just 

19 take a step back and look at what we're doing. 

20 Come to Appalachia and listen to the voices of 

21 the people whose lives you're playing with. 

22 Listen to the communities in which you are 
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1 threatening. Their voices deserve to be heard. 

2 Thank you. Thank you for your time today.

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you for your 

4 testimony. 

5 Next we would like to invite up, please, 

6 Cecilia Calvo and Bridgett Chadwick. Cecilia and 

7 Bridgett. 

8 MR. NIEBLING: Just go ahead. We will --

9 MS. CHADWICK: Okay. 

10 MR. NIEBLING: Whenever you're ready.

11 MS. CHADWICK: Oh, okay. Sorry. Good 

12 morning. Good morning. I'm Bridgett Chadwick of 

13 Wyncote, Pennsylvania. I actually -- my family 

14 moved from Yorkshire, North Yorkshire coal mining 

15 areas, and all the homes and walls were black 

16 with coal soot.

17 So, I'd like first to commend the EPA for 

18 setting carbon limits on existing power plants. 

19 As we know we can choose to generate electricity 

20 by capturing energy from tidal hydro, geothermal, 

21 wind, solar, biogas from landfill sites, and 

22 manure and nuclear energy sources, all of which 
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1 have zero carbon content. We can even generate 

2 electricity from bio-mass material which is 

3 considered carbon neutral, or we can choose to 

4 generate electricity from coal with a Co2 

5 emission factor of 95 kilograms of Co2 per 

6 million BTUs or natural gas with a Co2 emission 

7 factor of 53 kilograms of Co2 per million BTUs.

8 There's a lot of good with electricity. 

9 Since 2005 -- between 2005 and 2012, the carbon 

10 intensity of electricity decreased 12.5 percent 

11 because of the increase in zero carbon neutral 

12 fuels used to generate electricity. 

13 The carbon intensity now, in 2014, is as 

14 low as the carbon intensity of natural gas, and 

15 will be getting lower. The bad news about 

16 electricity is that we still generate electricity

17 with -- in 2014, it's gone up to 44 percent of 

18 the electricity that's generated from coal. And 

19 with its high carbon content it is producing 79 

20 percent of the Co2 emissions from the electric 

21 power sector.

22 So again, I commend the EPA for setting 
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1 these carbon limits. We're losing what we had --

2 were gaining on carbon intensity decrease.

3 I did just download the EIA Monthly 

4 Energy Report, and if you look at the electric 

5 power sector the months of January through April 

6 of 2014, the percent of energy for generating 

7 electricity from coal went up to 44.5 percent 

8 from 41.5 percent in 2012. 

9 The good news, again though, is that our 

10 renewable energy is still climbing up steadily 

11 from 33 percent. It's up to 35 percent. So, 

12 there is a war. But hopefully we will prevail. 

13 Thank you.

14 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Bridgett. Is 

15 Cecilia here now? And you can come up. And if 

16 Brian Levy is here.

17 MS. CALVO: I'm sorry, I was -- 

18 MR. NIEBLING: That's fine. 

19 MS. CALVO: Good morning. My name is 

20 Cecilia Calvo and I oversee the Environmental 

21 Justice Program at the United States Conference 

22 of Catholic Bishops. 
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1 On behalf of Arch Bishop Thomas Wenski 

2 and Bishop Pates, Chairman of the domestic and 

3 international committees of the United States 

4 Conference of Catholic Bishops, I thank you for 

5 this important and timely hearing on an issue 

6 that clearly affects God's creation and the 

7 entire human family.

8 My testimony draws from a letter that 

9 will be sent tomorrow by Arch Bishop Thomas 

10 Wenski and Bishop Richard Pates to the EPA 

11 Administrator, welcoming the setting of standards 

12 to reduce carbon pollution from existing power 

13 plants.

14 The chairmen support a national standard 

15 to reduce carbon pollution and recognize the 

16 important flexibility given to states in 

17 determining how best to meet these goals. Above 

18 all these standards should protect the health and 

19 welfare of all people, especially children, the 

20 elderly, as well as poor and vulnerable 

21 communities from harmful pollution emitted from 

22 power plants and from the impacts of climate 
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1 change.

2 The Bishops speak as people of faith, not 

3 as technical experts. They are pastors in a 

4 faith tradition that teaches, as Pope Francis 

5 recently stated, creation is a gift. It is a 

6 wonderful gift that God has given us to care for 

7 it and use it for the benefit of all, always with 

8 great respect and gratitude.

9 Power plants are the largest stationary 

10 source of carbon emissions in the United States 

11 and a major contributor to climate change. And 

12 we know the affects of climate change are borne 

13 by the most vulnerable, whether here at home or 

14 around the world.

15 In the United States power plants have 

16 often been located in low-income neighborhoods 

17 and communities of color. Air pollution from 

18 these plants contributes to health problems, 

19 especially in the young and the elderly. These 

20 standards would significantly reduce carbon 

21 pollution from power plants. They would also 

22 reduce particle pollution, sulfur dioxide, and 
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1 nitrogen oxides, which have been linked to 

2 important human and environmental health 

3 problems.

4 Around the world these effects are even 

5 more severe. Catholic Relief Services, the 

6 relief and development agency of the Catholic 

7 Church is helping the most vulnerable people 

8 respond to increasing floods and droughts, water 

9 and food and security, and increasing conflict 

10 over declining resources. All these are making 

11 the lives of the world's poorest people even more 

12 precarious. 

13 These standards are a vital first step to 

14 protecting the world's most vulnerable people, 

15 and allow the United States to exercise critical 

16 leadership necessary to achieving a global 

17 agreement.

18 As the U.S. Bishops wrote in their 

19 statement global climate change, a plea for 

20 dialog prudence and the common good, action to 

21 mitigate global climate change must be built upon 

22 a foundation of social and economic justice.
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1 The following principles can and should 

2 guide the EPA and states as they take steps to 

3 reduce carbon pollution and address climate 

4 change, respect for human life and dignity. All 

5 efforts to reduce the impact of climate change 

6 should recognize human life and dignity as the 

7 foundation of a healthy society. 

8 Prudence, on behalf of the common good. 

9 Why is action to address climate change required 

10 now? To protect the common good for present and 

11 future generations. 

12 A priority for the poor and vulnerable. 

13 The consequences of climate change will be borne 

14 by the world's most vulnerable people, and 

15 inaction will worsen their suffering. 

16 We all have an obligation to make sure 

17 their needs are addressed, and their burdens 

18 eased. 

19 Social and economic justice, any 

20 additional costs that such standards may generate 

21 must be distributed fairly. Workers should be 

22 protected from negative effects that might arise, 
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1 and should receive assistance to mitigate impacts 

2 on their livelihoods and families. 

3 Care for creation. We are all called to 

4 be responsible stewards of the Earth and to use 

5 the gifts we have been given to protect human 

6 life and dignity now and in the future. 

7 Participation. Communities should have a 

8 voice in shaping these standards based on their 

9 local impact. Especially low-income communities 

10 whose voice is often not heard.

11 Arch Bishop Wenski and Bishop Pates 

12 appreciate the Agency's commitment to address 

13 this urgent global challenge confronting the 

14 human family, and call upon leaders and 

15 government and industry to act responsibly, 

16 justly, and rapidly. 

17 The moral measure of debate and decisions 

18 on climate change will be whether our nation acts 

19 with prudence to safeguard creation, advance the 

20 common good, and protect humanity. Thank you.

21 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Cecilia. May I 

22 just confirm the spelling of your last name is C-
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1 A-L-V-O. 

2 MS. CALVO: C-A-L, V as in Victor, O. 

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Brian.

4 MR. LEVY: Gentlemen, thank you for the 

5 opportunity to be here today. I appreciate it. 

6 My name is Brian Levy. I'm a resident of the 

7 District. For years I grew up in the shadow of 

8 an oil refinery. My father worked for Exxon. 

9 Some of my earliest childhood memories are of 

10 huge oil tankers passing before our house in 

11 Aruba, taking the crude from the refinery to the 

12 U.S. markets. 

13 Oil money paid for my college education 

14 and even today I continue to receive royalties 

15 from shale gas extraction in Louisiana, although 

16 I'm not proud of it.

17 If, you know, if times had changed I 

18 think my father and I would be up here. We'd be 

19 testifying against strengthening the Clean Power 

20 Plan. But really, right now it's not 1983. 

21 We've got solar power that was $18 a watt back 

22 then. Today it's 73 cents. Childhood asthma 
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1 rates have doubled. We're at 400 PPM, not 340, 

2 and in my own backyard in D.C., you know the 

3 cherry trees are blossoming in February. 

4 So times are different. I currently 

5 serve as Vice President of FEER. We're a start6 up, Finances Energy Efficiency and Renewables, 

7 project across the country. 

8 Through power purchase agreements PPA's -

9 - we can finance. We're able to provide clients 

10 solar power for a cost lower than what they 

11 currently pay for coal and gas powered 

12 electricity. And probably just as importantly, 

13 we can actually make money on it. We can run a 

14 business and we also reduce carbon emissions in 

15 the process. Sort of a triple win for everyone.

16 There's one thing I've learned from the 

17 private sector, and the one thing that hasn't 

18 changed in the last 30 yeas is the incredible 

19 adaptive power of the market to respond to new 

20 technology and new policy. 

21 So as EPA knows, we make the rules, and 

22 the rules make us. Right? And somewhere in 
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1 there someone is making money, whether it's coal 

2 or oil or renewables. 

3 And right now I firmly believe that 

4 there's enormous opportunity, there's enormous 

5 climate wealth to be made in efficiency and 

6 renewables. Bigger than anything else in the oil 

7 and gas sector. 

8 And Americans should be making it. Not 

9 overseas. In the process we'll be doing the 

10 right thing for our country and for our kids.

11 So I'm here today to thank you, thank the 

12 EPA for the good work you've taken to date for 

13 holding these hearings. I'm also here to urge 

14 you to do more. 

15 Efficiency and renewables alone can 

16 achieve the current goals. We all know in four 

17 states they're already generating more renewable 

18 energy than the nonbinding target EPA sets in the 

19 proposed rule. So I believe we can transition 

20 from dirty to clean energy far faster than what 

21 the EPA predicts, because today the technology, 

22 the private sector, which I represent, and the 
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1 sobering moral demands which many have testified 

2 to here today. All these demands of our changing 

3 planet, they're all uniquely aligned. 

4 So I'm here to urge you to please work 

5 towards a larger national emission reduction 

6 goal, 40 percent reductions to 2005 levels by 

7 2020. Thank you for your time.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Brian. And 

9 we'd appreciate -- we've heard a little bit about 

10 energy measurement verification. We'd appreciate 

11 a follow-up technical comment in the docket about 

12 how your system works and ways that states can 

13 become informed.

14 MR. LEVY: Certainly. Thank you very 

15 much. 

16 MR. NIEBLING: Next we'd like to invite 

17 up Starla Yeh and Walton Shepherd, please.

18 MS. YEH: Good morning. I'm Starla Yey. 

19 I am an analyst with NRDC, the National Resources 

20 Defense Council. Thank you for taking my 

21 comments.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Starla, would you please 
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1 spell your last name for the --

2 MS. YEH: Sure. It's spelled Y, as in 

3 yellow, E-H. 

4 Thanks for taking my comments on this 

5 very important issue. Along with my colleagues, 

6 I support the EPA's Clean Power Plan and commend 

7 the agency for this tremendous accomplishment. 

8 Still, the proposed standards can and should be 

9 strengthened and as several of my colleagues, and 

10 Walton will soon testify, there are many 

11 improvements that we think can be made in the 

12 building blocks of this approach. So, others 

13 will address the other building blocks.

14 I will talk about the fourth block, which 

15 addresses the potential in each state to decrease 

16 the amount of energy we use to power homes and 

17 businesses through investments in energy 

18 efficiency.

19 It's a major tool that states can use to 

20 help meet the new pollution requirements, and 

21 it's a key part of the solution because it 

22 provides states with important flexibility at 
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1 relatively low cost.

2 EPA has readily recognized that energy 

3 efficiency is the most cost-effective resource to 

4 reduce emissions. Still, the block four formula 

5 falls well short of quantifying states' energy 

6 efficiency savings potential, overestimating the 

7 costs, and underestimating the benefits. States 

8 could do more to increase efficiency deployment 

9 at lower costs than EPA's reduced energy targets. 

10 EPA should also know that other 

11 opportunities to save energy from activities 

12 other than from utility programs and match the 

13 assumed pace of the implementation to what has 

14 been demonstrated in graphics. 

15 And the biggest missed opportunity in the 

16 approach is that it underestimates the potential 

17 for energy efficiency as well as renewable 

18 generation to reduce coal and gas plant 

19 pollution.

20 The Agency must address these issues in 

21 its final rule and adjust block four and the 

22 others accordingly.
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1 Even though EPA's analysis incorporates 

2 overly conservative estimates for the costs, the 

3 limitation rates, and persistence of energy 

4 savings, it still finds that the benefits 

5 tremendously outweigh the reasonable costs.

6 Investing in energy efficiency will also 

7 be good for the economy. New investments will 

8 create a broad range of homegrown expertise in 

9 industries that have been especially hard hit by 

10 the recent recession. We've shown that if states 

11 take full advantage of energy efficiency 

12 opportunities not only will we reduce carbon 

13 pollution but we'll also save American households 

14 and businesses about $37 million on their 

15 electric bills by 2020, with the average 

16 household enjoying more than $100 saved each year 

17 on the new electricity bills.

18 And we'll also grow the ranks of the 

19 electricians, roofers, carpenters, heavy 

20 equipment operators, insulation workers, 

21 industrial truck drivers, construction managers, 

22 heating and air conditioning installers, among 
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1 others, by more than 270,000. 

2 This all can happen because energy 

3 efficiency is our cleanest and cheapest energy 

4 resource and it remains largely untapped. 

5 Twenty-six states have an energy efficiency 

6 resource standard and nearly every state is now 

7 investing in these resources. Some states have 

8 been implementing these programs and reaping 

9 their rewards for decades, but several states 

10 have only just begun in the last few years and 

11 have ramped up their energy efficiency programs 

12 very quickly. 

13 States will be able to continue this 

14 trend under the Clean Power Plan and should go 

15 farther than what EPA has prescribed to maximize 

16 benefits while keeping costs moderate. 

17 In a report released earlier this year 

18 NRDC found that maximizing energy efficiency 

19 investments in all states would achieve more 

20 emission reductions earlier than the Clean Power 

21 Plan does, and deliver substantial net benefits 

22 ranging from $21,000 to $53,000 in 2020. 
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1 EPA has plenty of room to strengthen its 

2 proposal significantly while keeping costs 

3 modest, and boosting local and state economies by 

4 prorating more efficiency savings.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you.

7 Mr. Walton.

8 MR. SHEPHERD: Good morning, 

9 administrators, and thank you. My name is Walton 

10 Shepherd. I'm a native of West Virginia and an 

11 attorney at the Natural Resources Defense 

12 Council.

13 I commend the EPA for the Clean Power 

14 Plan as a common sense fulfillment of its lawful 

15 duty to address our country's single largest 

16 source of dangerous climate changing carbon 

17 pollution. I will address the EPA's rightful 

18 inclusion of cost-effective renewable energy as a 

19 compliance option, block three, as well as 

20 identify ways EPA's treatment of renewable energy 

21 should be approved.

22 But first I urge the EPA not to be 
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1 distracted by the tired predictable chorus of 

2 special interest Chicken Littles who warn of 

3 crushed economy, killed jobs, and being plunged 

4 into medieval darkness. These big polluter 

5 canards are trotted out every time the EPA has 

6 followed the law of the land and reined in 

7 dangerous costly pollution. And every time those 

8 special interest untruths are proven wrong, with 

9 instead GDP continues to grow, innovation 

10 flourishes, and the air we all breathe is made 

11 cleaner at a low cost.

12 Already the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's 

13 rogue attack on this proposal has been debunked, 

14 earning it a notorious four full Pinocchios from 

15 the Washington Post. 

16 These big polluters also routinely decry 

17 any subsidy and zero emissions renewable energy, 

18 and conveniently leave out that their profits are 

19 themselves subsidized by tax payers to the tune 

20 of $4 billion a year, and always have been since 

21 their subsidized build out, indeed monopolization 

22 in the early 20th Century.
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1 Without such subsidies dirty energy 

2 sources would have never been the dominant energy 

3 supply they are today. Similarly politicians who 

4 oppose this proposal, who disingenuously deny 

5 science, who disregard the structural decline of 

6 central Appalachian coal, and who vote dirty in 

7 exchange for campaign contributions are 

8 themselves yet another subsidy to the dirty 

9 energy we all pay for, through children's asthma 

10 attacks, through demolished mountains in the 

11 mountain state, and through every extreme weather 

12 clean-up caused by climate change. 

13 Big polluters’ refusal to innovate into 

14 the 21st Century obliges them to now get out of 

15 the way to allow the true innovators and job 

16 creators in non-climate changing clean energy to 

17 lead the way, to clean our air to create 

18 homegrown jobs, and to grow a healthy durable 

19 economy so that the rest of the world may follow 

20 in America's footsteps.

21 So, the EPA is correct to recognize these 

22 American innovators and job creators in block 
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1 three of the Clean Power Plan, because renewables 

2 are already a thriving and growing the industry 

3 whose electric generation is growing 

4 exponentially. Already three states get over 20 

5 percent of their energy from wind. Six get at 

6 least 12 percent, and Xcel Energy in Colorado 

7 supplied 60 percent of its system with wind 

8 power. 

9 Steady wind energy was crucial to keeping 

10 the lights on and prices from skyrocketing during 

11 the polar vortex. The wind industry employs 

12 80,000 people. The cost of wind energy dropped 

13 by almost half between '09 and '12, and 70 

14 percent of wind power components are made in 

15 America.

16 The solar industry employs over 140,000 

17 Americans, and California recently produced the 

18 equivalent of five large power plants from solar 

19 energy alone. Due to innovation the price of 

20 solar power dropped by 60 percent between '11 and 

21 '13. So it is not a matter of whether we can 

22 rely upon renewables and low cost, it's a matter 
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1 of whether we will. And the EPA has rightly 

2 recognized that we will if states choose to do 

3 so.

4 However, the EPA can improve the proposed 

5 third building block to more accurately reflect 

6 what American clean energy is in reality already 

7 achieving and how much it can cost effectively 

8 grow. The levels of renewable energy's 

9 availability and quantity assumed by the EPA are 

10 far too low, based as they are on a metric that 

11 doesn't accurately reflect reality. 

12 Rather than basing block three on 

13 arbitrary and unambitious state RPS mandates as 

14 proposed, block three should instead be based on 

15 proven resource availability. On a state and a 

16 regional basis, according to the proposal of 

17 alternative approach.

18 EPA should also include the full 

19 potential of distributed solar and off-shore wind 

20 in its analysis of what is possible and cost 

21 effective. 

22 In closing, the EPA is right to include 
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1 renewables in the BSER standards for each state, 

2 but BSER should also fully reflect all that is 

3 currently possible from innovative job creators 

4 who will once again export cutting edge energy 

5 technology to the rest of the world. Thank you.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Mr. Walton. 

7 Next we'd like to invite up Kelly Benjamin and 

8 Gene Karpinski please. 

9 MR. BENJAMIN: Hi. My name is Kelly 

10 Benjamin and that's K-E-L-L-Y B-E-N-J-A-M-I-N. I 

11 work on climate health issues with Physicians for 

12 Social Responsibility right here in D.C., and I'd 

13 like to first address the Clean Power Plan as a 

14 Floridian. I hail from Tampa, Florida, the 

15 Sunshine State. Although unfortunately we 

16 haven't invested a whole lot in solar technology 

17 down there.

18 Instead we get over a quarter of our 

19 power from coal burning power plants. We get 

20 more from natural gas, which is something I hope 

21 to see the EPA address next. 

22 There are 15 dirty coal burning plants in 
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1 Florida, including Big Ben Power Plant, which 

2 sits right on the edge of Tampa Bay.

3 Although Big Ben is one of these plants 

4 that has scrubbers, it's still pretty dirty. 

5 Coal is dirty. There's no such thing as clean 

6 coal. And that's partly why Hillsboro County, 

7 where Tampa sits, where I grew up, has the worst 

8 smog in the State of Florida. My county receives 

9 an F rating every single year from the American 

10 Lung Association for having the highest number of 

11 days when people with conditions like asthma 

12 shouldn't observe themselves outside in the 

13 afternoon.

14 Growing up there I had asthma, many of my 

15 friends did. Many of them still do. And I think 

16 a strong carbon rule can help begin to change 

17 that for the generations that come after us.

18 As most people in this room already know, 

19 there's a significant -- you know, there's a 

20 scientific consensus that burning fossil fuels is 

21 contributing to a rapidly heating planet, despite 

22 propaganda coming from those in the industry, and 
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1 coming from those who say, like this gentleman 

2 who was here earlier, that there's a war on coal. 

3 How about the war on public health, on human 

4 health that is happening because of the continued 

5 use of this archaic energy source.

6 Those folks make a great deal of money 

7 polluting the air we breathe. We know that our 

8 actions are causing runaway climate change. And 

9 it just so happens that two of the cities that 

10 among the most endangered by climate change in 

11 the world, according to the National Research 

12 Council are two of the largest cities in my home 

13 state of Florida, Tampa, St. Petersburg, and 

14 Miami. These cities are facing the gravest risk

15 of potential annual losses from coastal flooding. 

16 All of Florida is at sea level. We don't have 

17 any mountains. And sea level rise is already 

18 beginning to devastate places like Miami. It's 

19 already happening and the vast majority of the 

20 population in Florida lives on the coast. This 

21 is a pretty serious issue.

22 Florida is also at high risk for extreme 
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1 weather caused by climate change. We get 

2 hurricanes, which can cause contaminated water, 

3 and with climate change comes an increase in 

4 water borne diseases, as well as insect born 

5 diseases like West Nile Virus, like Malaria. 

6 Climate change is a direct threat to 

7 human health. At least 1,500 people lost their 

8 lives during Hurricane Katrina. Many of those 

9 deaths were a direct result of the 28-foot storm 

10 surge that they had there, which many scientists 

11 link to runaway climate change. A strong carbon 

12 rule can help lessen the likelihood of these 

13 kinds of storms happening in the future.

14 Much has been said about the cost of 

15 implementing this plan, and that there is a 

16 tradeoff between protecting the environment and 

17 economic prosperity. That's simply not true. As 

18 the gentleman who was just here before stated 

19 very eloquently, we have the capacity to 

20 implement new technologies to begin to transition 

21 off of these archaic energy sources.

22 This plan holds up the door to an 
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1 entirely new economy based on sustainable clean 

2 energy sources that don't emit greenhouse gases 

3 and threaten health. The real question that 

4 should be asked is, how much is it going to cost 

5 if we do nothing?

6 In closing, President Obama and the EPA 

7 should be commended for pushing forward with this 

8 significant step towards addressing climate 

9 change. But it's important to note that this 

10 proposal is not enough. If this country is going 

11 to adequately respond to the danger posed by 

12 global warming, caused by industrial emissions, 

13 and have a chance of catching up with the physics 

14 of climate change, we have to do more. And we 

15 can't be bullied or mislead by those who are more 

16 concerned with making a profit than protecting 

17 public health. Thank you.

18 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, fellows. 

19 Next, Gene Karpinski is here, and Matthew 

20 Martin, please.

21 MR. KARPINSKI: Thank you. My name is 

22 Gene Karpinski. I'm the president of the League 
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1 of Conservation Voters, and a colleague of mine, 

2 a board member, is also supposed to be here, 

3 Peter Mandelstam who was not able to make it, but 

4 I'm glad to be here and I appreciate -- let me 

5 say up front, I appreciate all the time and 

6 effort you all are putting into these hearings. 

7 It's a great event and we have members and board 

8 members and staff participating in each of the 

9 locations. But I really appreciate that. 

10 You know, inside the Beltway here there's 

11 sometimes a sense when you listen to some of the 

12 elected officials, I just saw Mr. McConnell 

13 speak, and you listen to some of the effected 

14 industries that somehow EPA is this negative 

15 force in our country, but I think you all know we 

16 appreciate the work. When you actually ask the 

17 public what they think about EPA, it's one of the 

18 most respected agencies. More favorable ratings 

19 than any elected politician around the country, 

20 just about. So we applaud the work that you do. 

21 And when you look at the data from the 

22 public about this particular proposal, it's 
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1 overwhelmingly supportive. We've done surveys at 

2 individual states and battleground states and in 

3 national surveys confirmed by other surveys by 

4 other organizations, news outlets, and the rest, 

5 it's very clear that two thirds to three fourths 

6 of the public strongly supports this kind of 

7 proposal. So we applaud you for taking that kind 

8 of action.

9 It's also clear that most people don't 

10 even know that in fact we don't currently 

11 regulate carbon pollution. They assume, just 

12 like we regulate mercury and arsenic, other 

13 pollutants, that we're doing carbon. So the fact 

14 that we're finally moving forward, hats off to 

15 you all, and it's where the public wants you to 

16 be. And we've also asked the question whether 

17 you'd prefer congress versus the EPA to make this 

18 move to cut carbon pollution. And quite 

19 surprisingly the numbers were even more powerful 

20 than we thought. By more than five to one the 

21 public would prefer EPA to do this job. And 

22 again, that's a hats off to all the work you've 
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1 done for decades. And the fact that you have 

2 such powerful high approval ratings is because 

3 you do the job you're supposed to do. You 

4 protect our air. You protect our water. You 

5 protect our health. So thank you for all that, 

6 and it's good to know the public is very firmly 

7 on your side in general, and then moving forward 

8 with this specific proposal.

9 You know, I've been working on these 

10 issues personally for more than 30 years, had the 

11 pleasure of standing in this building last month 

12 when administrator McCarthy announced the 

13 proposal. Frankly from my perspective it was one 

14 of the most important events I've ever been at 

15 and truly historic. And it's really the greatest 

16 step we've ever taking in this country for the 

17 greatest challenge we face. And now we need to 

18 complete the job. We're pleased to be a part of 

19 this process. We've already gathered, I think, 

20 over 150,000 public comments in support of the 

21 rule, in support of strengthening the rule 

22 because I think it even needs to be tighter as we 
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1 do a final rule. But we're pleased to be a part 

2 of this process in that sense. 

3 It's sad, frankly, that some of the 

4 opponents of this rule are frankly just, you 

5 know, making things up, making exaggerations. In 

6 fact many people have seen a study that one of 

7 our other groups, the Chamber of Commerce, put 

8 out before the rule was proposed, suggesting the 

9 alleged billions of dollars it would cost, and 

10 the hundreds of thousands of lives it would cost. 

11 Well, that study was clearly debunked. 

12 The Washington Post gave it four Pinocchios, 

13 other outlets called it false, misleading, bogus. 

14 Sadly, elected officials and other groups 

15 continue to use those numbers. Speaker Boehner, 

16 Mr. McConnell, other organizations have used 

17 those figures and they're just false. 

18 So we want to make sure that the record 

19 is clear, as you all did in your own analysis 

20 that in the long run this will both increase jobs 

21 across the country, and the public health 

22 benefits are very clear. And the cost to 
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1 consumers over time are actually in their favor 

2 because this rule appropriately gives flexibility 

3 to the states, relies on efficiency, relies on 

4 renewables to get the job done. 

5 So, again, it's important to reject those 

6 bogus claims and to shine the spotlight on them. 

7 And that's why frankly we are actually doing TV 

8 ads as we sit here, in all four cities where the

9 hearings are being held, very specifically 

10 debunking the claims of the industry, of the 

11 industry opponents, that again, based on this 

12 false study, to make sure that the public knows 

13 that those claims are false, and in fact this 

14 rule will protect our health, will create new 

15 jobs, and will most importantly help save the 

16 planet for the long run because again, this is 

17 the most important step this government has ever 

18 taken. And we appreciate that.

19 We'd like to see this rule strengthened 

20 along the way. I think if you look even more 

21 carefully at the assumptions about what we can do 

22 with renewables, what we can do with efficiency, 
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1 and we can even make these proposals tighter and 

2 cut more emissions. It's a big challenge ahead 

3 of us but we've taken a huge and important step. 

4 The science on climate change is clear. We need 

5 to make progress. This is a big step forward. I 

6 thank you all for doing that. Appreciate your 

7 time.

8 MR. NIEBLING: And we hope we'll get 

9 input from Peter and from all of your members as 

10 well, during this process.

11 MR. KARPINSKI: Appreciate it.

12 MR. MARTIN: Good morning. My name is 

13 Matthew Martin. I'm here on behalf of WE ACT for 

14 Environmental Justice. I want to thank you for 

15 your time today. I really appreciate the 

16 opportunity.

17 WE ACT for Environmental Justice is a 

18 Northern Manhattan based community organization 

19 whose mission is to build healthy communities by 

20 assuring that communities of color and low-income 

21 communities meaningfully participate in the 

22 creation of the sound and fair environmental 
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1 protection and health policies.

2 I commend the EPA for its strives to 

3 address climate change through this proposed 

4 plan, and while regulating carbon is a good first 

5 step, we believe there are other factors that 

6 need to be taken into consideration. 

7 First, WE ACT recommends that the EPA 

8 conduct a thorough environmental justice analysis 

9 of this proposed plan and make it a required part 

10 of the state implementation plan that an 

11 environmental justice analysis is conducted at 

12 the state level. The current section in the plan 

13 that addresses environmental justice is 

14 insufficient.

15 Secondly, the plan is very slanted 

16 towards cap and trade polices as being the most 

17 viable option to meet carbon emission limits. 

18 Other options like carbon pricing must be 

19 presented and promoted. If cap and trade is 

20 pursued there must be controls integrated into 

21 the process to make sure that entities are 

22 actually achieving reductions in the impacted 
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1 communities. Offsets in allowing these companies 

2 to simply buy their way out of compliance is 

3 unacceptable.

4 Third, energy solutions that must benefit 

5 the community. Opportunities for clean energy 

6 jobs, education, and affordable alternative 

7 energy solutions must be available to residents 

8 of impacted communities. 

9 Finally, the state implementation process 

10 must include environmental justice leaders and 

11 advocates at the table. We suggest that this 

12 outreach be a significant part of the SIP 

13 process.

14 In conclusion this year marked the 20th 

15 anniversary of an executive order called 898 on 

16 environmental justice, the 40th anniversary of 

17 the Civil Rights Act, and the EPA designated the 

18 Month of February as Environmental Justice Month. 

19 I urge you to stand firm to your commitment to 

20 environmental justice and make the Clean Power 

21 Plan something that brings justice to all. Thank 

22 you.
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1 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Next we'd like 

2 to invite up Nikki Silvestri and Katherine 

3 Stainken please.

4 MS. SILVESTRI: Thank you very much. My 

5 name is Nikki Silvestri. I'm the executive 

6 director of Green for All, a national 

7 organization focused on the environment and 

8 renewable entities. 

9 And first of all, I'd like to say thank 

10 you. Thank you for the carbon emission 

11 standards. I appreciate it, people of color 

12 appreciate it, and that's actually what I'm here 

13 to talk about today.

14 Green for All was concerned initially 

15 about the carbon emission standards. We love the 

16 standards themselves, but we were concerned that 

17 people of color and low-income communities were 

18 going to be targeted to come out against the 

19 carbon emission standards because of things like, 

20 it's going to cost you more money, your energy 

21 bills are going to go up, it's going to cost you 

22 jobs. We were concerned about whether or not 
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1 that message was really penetrating. 

2 And so Green for All did a poll, mainly 

3 so that we could show that -- we could show 

4 whether or not people of color across the country 

5 actually do support the carbon emission 

6 standards. And in the poll, we found that they 

7 do. People of color across this country, 

8 African-Americans, Latinos, and Asian-Americans 

9 support the carbon emission standards because we 

10 know that we're hit first and worst. 

11 We Act for Environmental Justice was just 

12 here on the stage, and environmental justice 

13 organizations for years have known that carbon 

14 pollution and things like it are what contribute 

15 to a number of health problems in our 

16 communities. Sixty-eight percent of African17 Americans live near coal plants. So this is 

18 going to affect us pretty directly. 

19 And when we did our poll and we asked 

20 questions specifically about the carbon emission 

21 standards, what we found is that 50 percent of 

22 people of color and minority voters believe that 
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1 the carbon emission standards are going to 

2 increase their electricity bill and actually cost 

3 jobs. 

4 However, they also, 75 percent of 

5 minority voters also believe that it's going to 

6 spur innovation in the long-term, and create 

7 jobs, and eventually lower their bills.

8 So the message that I want to communicate 

9 today is that minority voters in America actually 

10 have a complex understanding of the carbon 

11 emission standards. We're willing to accept 

12 potential short-term cost if that means in the 

13 long-term our communities are going to be 

14 healthier and it's going to actually get us jobs. 

15 Then when we asked them about their major 

16 concerns about the carbon emission standards, 

17 what they would want to see happen to make sure 

18 that it was successful, the very first thing at 

19 the top of their list was training for those who 

20 are currently in the dirty energy economy so that 

21 they could transition into a clean energy 

22 economy.
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1 We recently heard a story of a man 

2 working in Illinois with varied hours and 

3 exhausting work who was laid off because of the 

4 severe drought in the Midwest. Water is in short 

5 supply and coal mine operations use lots of water 

6 to produce their product. So restrictions forced 

7 the mine to cut back production. 

8 Fortunately there was a solar company in 

9 St. Louis who recognized the worker's strong 

10 ethic. But if the owner had simply hired based 

11 on experience, this gentleman would not have 

12 gotten the job. So we want more stories like 

13 that to happen. We want to see that people of 

14 color and low-income people who are employed in 

15 the dirty energy economy can actually make a 

16 transition into the renewable economy.

17 Finally, what I want to communicate is 

18 that minority voters across America support the 

19 current emission standards because it's a moral 

20 issue. That was at the very top of the list when 

21 we asked why do we think climate solutions is 

22 important to you. It's important to us because 
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1 we want to leave the world a better place for our 

2 children. That's the number one message that 

3 penetrates.

4 So I want to wrap up by saying that now 

5 the devil is in the details. We agree in 

6 principle that we need to cut carbon emissions 

7 and in practice we want to do that in a way that 

8 actually contributes to the health of our 

9 communities in a way that allows people to 

10 transition from one economy to the next renewable 

11 economy. And we want to do that in a way that 

12 increases our economic security as vulnerable 

13 populations. And now I feel like it's on the 

14 states. 

15 We want to get these carbon emission 

16 standards passed and we want to make sure that as 

17 the states implement them, that it's good for all 

18 of us. Thank you.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. 

20 MS. STAINKEN: Good morning. My name is 

21 Katherine Stainken and I’m here today on behalf 

22 of the Solar Energy Industry's Association, or 
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1 SEIA, the solar industry's leading trade 

2 association. We represent over 1,000 solar 

3 companies throughout the supply chain, including 

4 project developers, manufacturers, installers, 

5 and others.

6 First, I'd like to thank the staff 

7 assembled here and the Environmental Protection 

8 Agency for providing this forum to elicit 

9 feedback on the Clean Power Plan. We applaud the 

10 EPA for their hard work and diligence in crafting 

11 this immensely important regulation. 

12 SEIA generally supports the Clean Power 

13 Plan and is in support of a flexible approach 

14 that allows states to take advantage of solar as 

15 a compliance option as part of a balanced energy 

16 portfolio. Additionally SEIA agrees with the EPA 

17 that renewable energy is part of the best system 

18 implementation reduction. Many states have 

19 proven that system wide programs that require the 

20 implementation for renewable energy are extremely 

21 effective at reducing carbon emissions in an 

22 achievable, efficient, and cost-effective manner, 
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1 and SEIA has already provided additional comment 

2 on this to the EPA.

3 Solar energy should be one of the first 

4 sources that a state considers when determining 

5 how it will hit its carbon pollution targets 

6 because solar emits zero carbon emissions and 

7 offers states a host of additional methods.

8 In 2014 alone solar is expected to 

9 generate more than 20,000 gigawatt hours of 

10 energy. This is equivalent of avoiding 13.8 

11 million metric tons of carbon pollution in 2014. 

12 Because the use of solar energy avoids the 

13 burning of fossil fuels, solar avoids many of the 

14 health issues attributed in part to fossil fuel 

15 emissions including bronchitis, asthma, and heart 

16 disease. 

17 Solar is already cost competitive with

18 new fossil generation in certain circumstances 

19 and has become a competitor with existing fossil 

20 generation as well, making solar an attractive 

21 compliance option. Nationally the average price 

22 of a residential PV installation declined to 9 
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1 percent in Q-4 2013 over Q-4 2012. Between 2006 

2 and 2013 the capacity rate of average installed 

3 price of PV fell from $7.97 a watt to $2.59 a 

4 watt.

5 These falling costs and the potential for 

6 huge carbon reductions through solar make an 

7 attractive component of a balanced energy 

8 portfolio within a state compliance plan. But 

9 the benefits don't stop there. 

10 As part of a balanced energy portfolio 

11 solar can improve grid reliability and provide 

12 significant relief to existing energy 

13 infrastructure by reducing transmission losses

14 and relieving congestion on the grid. 

15 As if all this isn't enough, states will 

16 find solar energy an attractive compliance option 

17 as solar helps reduce water consumption in 

18 comparison with traditional fossil fuel sources, 

19 and due to the wide variety of solar 

20 technologies, solar an be installed rapidly, a 

21 key piece in meeting compliance deadlines.

22 Here in the Delaware, Virginia, and 
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1 Maryland, and D.C. area the solar industry was 

2 over 5,200 people across 392 solar companies. 

3 These companies are at every level of the solar 

4 supply chain representing manufacturers, 

5 contractors, project developers, and engineers. 

6 The strong economic impact here in the 

7 larger D.C. metro region is representative of the 

8 positive impacts solar is having across the 

9 country. In fact, according to the 2013 solar 

10 job census there are nearly 143,000 solar workers 

11 in the U.S. A 20 percent increase over 

12 employment totals in 2012. 

13 With all this being said we believe there 

14 are certain areas of the Clean Power Plan that 

15 must be modified to accurately depict today's 

16 solar market. Specifically in regards to 

17 building block three and renewable energy, the 

18 solar data used does not reflect current solar 

19 capacity or market projections. 

20 Current solar capacity today is already 

21 far exceeding the estimates that EPA has used for 

22 2030 state projections. The EPA must also 
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1 recognize distributed generation solar, as well 

2 as solar heating and cooling technologies, and 

3 its renewable energy state targets. 

4 Furthermore, since 2012, the baseline 

5 unit the EPA has relied on for its solar data, 

6 the solar industry has seen rapid expansion and 

7 growth across all 50 states. We encourage the 

8 EPA to recognize this tremendous growth in solar 

9 and to use an updated baseline year relative to 

10 when the final rule will be released. SEIA will 

11 be submitting detailed comments on those points.

12 Again, SEIA applauds the EPA for their 

13 leadership and fantastic work on the Clean Power 

14 Plan. And we look forward to working with the 

15 EPA on these issues and with the state 

16 stakeholders as solar can help states to achieve 

17 an optimal long-term strategy for each state's 

18 economy and environment. 

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And would you 

20 please just spell your last name for the 

21 reporter?

22 MS. STAINKEN: Sure. It's S-T-A-I-N-K-E-
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1 N.

2 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Thank you, 

3 both. 

4 Next up we have Ashley Goff and Stacy 

5 Davis, please.

6 MS. GOFF: My name is Ashley Goff and I'm 

7 a pastor at Church of the Pilgrims, a 

8 congregation in the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. in 

9 DuPont Circle, in Washington, D.C.

10 Sixty thousand honeybees call the 

11 backyard of Church of the Pilgrims home. Four 

12 honeybee hives are part of our urban garden 

13 called Sacred Greens. Our honeybees pollinate 

14 the vegetables and fruits of our garden, the 

15 forest oasis right next to us, Rock Creek Park, 

16 and the fruits, flowers, and trees of our DuPont 

17 neighbors.

18 If you are within three miles of Church 

19 of the Pilgrims there's a good chance our 

20 honeybees have transformed the flowers of your 

21 tomato plants to tomato fruit. The eggplants, 

22 green peppers, basil, beans, butternut squash, 
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1 and carrots we grow in Sacred Greens, our urban 

2 garden, goes to create hunger meals for our 

3 table, our lunch every Sunday afternoon for 30 or 

4 so hungry neighbors.

5 Our newly planted apple and pear trees 

6 and fruit bushes or permaculture, will soon offer 

7 a free healthy snack for anyone walking by our 

8 garden. 

9 On Sundays our garden is poignantly 

10 alive. Honeybees buzzing around seeking pollen 

11 and nectar and hungry neighbors sharing in 

12 casseroles of fresh eggplants, tomatoes, and 

13 basil. In that moment our backyard is host and 

14 home to living beings our society thinks are 

15 disposable, honeybees and hungry homeless folks.

16 Honeybees are the must vulnerable of 

17 insects threatened by colony collapse disorder, 

18 an ecological crisis created by human agency with 

19 pesticides and climate change. Hungry people are 

20 the most socially vulnerable of community, 

21 starving off the lack of access to affordable and 

22 healthy food.
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1 Since 2006 commercial beekeepers have 

2 lost 30 percent of their hives due to colony 

3 collapse disorder. According to our friends over 

4 at the USDA, about one mouthful in three of our 

5 diet is directly or indirectly benefited from 

6 honeybee pollination. 

7 According to D.C. Hunger Solutions, in 

8 2008 to 2012, 30.5 percent of households with 

9 children in the District of Columbia said they 

10 were unable to afford healthy food. This is the 

11 second worst rate in the nation, exceeded only by 

12 Mississippi. 

13 Climate change suffocates God's planetary 

14 design. We designed our backyard because of our 

15 trust in the Holy One, and in a Christian ethic 

16 with a moral vision. Our garden symbolizes how 

17 we are to live as God's people, in God's way, and 

18 shows our intention for living. 

19 Psalm 104 states we are to renew the face 

20 of the planet. And right now the planet is poor 

21 from climate pollution impacting humans and 

22 insects, like the honeybee. 
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1 Oikos, in the Greek is word for house or 

2 household. Oikos is also root for the words 

3 ecology and economics. For Christians of the 

4 Ancient Church, Oikos was not limited to the 

5 private home but was referring to the planet 

6 itself as the world house, or God's home. 

7 Oikos sets Church of the Pilgrim's 

8 intention on how we are to be a sacred neighbor, 

9 that we are a shared household with all who are 

10 born, and belong to all who live. We cohabitate. 

11 We are humans and we all live into each other's 

12 life, and we die into each other's death in a 

13 complex pattern of relationships that can nourish 

14 or destroy creatures like the honeybee and 

15 vulnerable humans.

16 There's no way around our 

17 interconnectedness. We are a one household 

18 tethered across inhabited landscapes. It's the 

19 way of God and life.

20 Oikos, the household, also assumes 

21 limits. The wellbeing of the planet doesn't come 

22 from a short-term vision of life, with a never-
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1 ending inhaling of goods, services, and energy. 

2 Oikos demands limits on how we are to live as 

3 humans on the planet. Oikos demands a long-term 

4 vision that incorporates how we can imagine to be 

5 future generations, particularly the future 

6 generations of honeybees and folks who are 

7 starving. 

8 A long-term vision of life calls us to 

9 live as part of the web of life, prophetically 

10 reducing carbon production that exacerbates 

11 climate disruption that impacts the life of 

12 insects, food production, health, and the sheer 

13 beauty of nature. 

14 The role of the EPA is to regulate the 

15 commons. At Church of the Pilgrims we are doing 

16 that; tending to our own eco-location with 

17 intentionality to reflect our place in society 

18 and God's home. Church of the Pilgrims charges 

19 the EPA to care for the household, the whole 

20 house, by requiring 30 percent reduction in 

21 carbon pollution from power plants by 2030.

22 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. I live near 
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1 DuPont Circle, so I'll thank you at least for the 

2 flowers outside my building.

3 MS. GOFF: You're welcome. 

4 MR. NIEBLING: Please.

5 MS. DAVIS: Thank you for the opportunity 

6 to share our views with you today. My name is 

7 Stacy Davis and I'm a Senior Program Manager with 

8 the Center for Clean Air Policy, or CCAP, founded 

9 almost 30 years ago by Republican and Democratic 

10 governors seeking solutions to address acid rain. 

11 CCAP helps policy makers around the world 

12 develop, promote, and implement innovative 

13 market-based solutions to major climate air 

14 quality and energy problems that balance both 

15 environmental and economic interests.

16 Today I have two main points and a few 

17 initial suggestions. My first point, EPA hit the 

18 mark in defining the best system of emission 

19 reduction. EPA's approach of assigning emissions 

20 reductions opportunities from four well 

21 understood technology building blocks on the 

22 basis of state specific characteristics, is fair 
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1 and reasonable. This approach acknowledges the 

2 uneven distribution of mitigation opportunities 

3 across the country and recognizes that states 

4 have acted early; some states have acted early to 

5 deploy low carbons solutions.

6 Moreover, the approach shows how the 

7 standards can be met in each state using 

8 demonstrated technologies. In addition the way 

9 that EPA potentially did not max out the 

10 available building blocks in each state, offers a 

11 substantial cushion allowing states or facilities 

12 to ramp up use of preferred mitigation options 

13 while using less of others. The approach nicely 

14 accommodates remaining useful like and other 

15 site-specific considerations. Similarly the fact 

16 that EPA did not factor in other well understood 

17 technological solutions in defining the best 

18 system of emission reduction, things like 

19 combined power and building codes, offers even 

20 more wiggle room, though these solutions can also 

21 be used to justify tightening the standards a bit 

22 more.
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1 My second point. Proposed rule strikes 

2 the sensible balance between effectiveness and 

3 flexibility in reducing emissions from existing 

4 power plants by an estimated 30 percent below 

5 2005 levels by 2030, the proposed rule achieves 

6 meaningful emissions reductions. 

7 While the science demands even bigger 

8 emissions reductions over time to stay on a path 

9 to a global 2 degrees Celsius goal, this rule 

10 offers an important down payment. The proposal 

11 has demonstrated to the international community 

12 the U.S. is serious about making emissions 

13 reductions and it has improved our standing in 

14 the international negotiations.

15 The proposed rule also offers a number of 

16 implementation pathways so that each state can 

17 select the approach most likely to work for its 

18 own sources and citizens. Each state can factor 

19 in range of state specific considerations in 

20 defining the form of the standard and in 

21 allocating the standard to individual sources. 

22 Moreover, states have the flexibility to 
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1 allow compliance through any measure that 

2 displaces the emissions from effective electric 

3 generating units and can join with other states 

4 to comply on a regional basis using a multi-state 

5 approach. 

6 In making use of these flexibilities over 

7 a long compliance horizon, states can develop 

8 strategies to minimize costs and account for 

9 factors such as reliability and remaining useful 

10 life.

11 And finally I want to offer three 

12 specific suggestions. First, to prevent states 

13 from gaining the mass based standard by 

14 overestimating their business as usual growth in 

15 electric demand, or by exaggerating transmission 

16 constraints that might overestimate business as 

17 usual capacity factors in high emitting units, we 

18 strongly suggest that EPA establish a presumptive 

19 mass standard for each state using consistent and 

20 transparent assumptions.

21 Second, to prevent states from double22 counting emissions reductions, complete energy 
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1 solutions such as energy efficiency and renewable 

2 energy, EPA should provide further guidance under 

3 a range of plausible scenarios. 

4 For example, EPA should offer guidance to 

5 states on how they should treat emissions 

6 reductions from energy efficiency measures that 

7 they pay for, but where some or all of the 

8 emissions reductions of the power grid are 

9 modeled to occur in a different state. 

10 Similarly EPA should offer guidance on 

11 how to treat emissions reduction in the scenario 

12 where both the generating state and buying state 

13 might try to claim the Co2 emissions reductions 

14 and renewable energy credit. 

15 And third, if states allow combining 

16 power to be used for their means of compliance, 

17 this will lower the cost of compliance for the 

18 clean power plant, while helping industries that 

19 use CHP lower their energy costs and improve 

20 economic competitiveness in the local market 

21 place. 

22 EPA should facilitate use of CHP as a 
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1 means of compliance by defining approaches to 

2 crediting. Such approaches should recognize the 

3 inherent efficiency of the technology in 

4 producing two streams of energy, electricity and 

5 thermal energy, using the same fuel input. Cap's 

6 IPL analysis of Nordic's moderate constrained 

7 efficiency scenario, by adding CHP as a 

8 compliance option found that nearly 10 gigawatts 

9 of new CHP in total are likely to come in by 

10 2030, and the CHP could support compliance with 

11 the Clean Power Plan. 

12 Moreover, we found that the incremental 

13 effect of the one level standard is to drive new 

14 CHP in states facing higher litigation costs and 

15 the opportunity can be greatest in manufacturing 

16 states where there is considerable technical 

17 potential. 

18 But thank you for this chance to share 

19 these ideas with you.

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you, Stacy. Next 

21 please, John Noel and Monica Ward. Monica.

22 MR. NOEL: Just how many? Ten minutes? 
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1 My name is John Noel, I am a natural gas 

2 campaigns coordinator for the Clean Water Action. 

3 We are a rural organization of diverse people and 

4 groups joined together to protect our 

5 environment, health, economic wellbeing, and 

6 community health. 

7 First I want to recognize EPA's 

8 courageous efforts to address the threat that 

9 climate change poses to all of us in this room, 

10 and those unborn. Tackling the largest source of 

11 carbon dioxide emissions in the planet, the 

12 political climate is no doubt a challenge and the 

13 EPA deserves a tremendous amount of praise for 

14 getting this work started. 

15 Clean Water Action strongly supports the 

16 Clean Power Plan to reduce carbon emissions by 30 

17 percent from 2005 levels and the subsequent 

18 benefits these reductions will generate. 

19 This is an historic moment in time and 

20 I'm glad to be sitting here testifying before my 

21 government which is putting out this rule tasked 

22 with the acknowledgement that our current energy 
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1 trajectory is unsustainable. 

2 Clean Water Action also recognizes that 

3 the rule must go further and that EPA can play a 

4 larger role in tilting the rudder of the economy 

5 towards a robust clean energy landscape.

6 Acknowledging and correcting the obvious 

7 negative effects of free-flowing carbon pollution 

8 into the atmosphere is step one. 

9 Step two is fully comprehending the scope 

10 of the climate crisis and setting more emissions 

11 goals so that we can exceed our country's 

12 commitment to reduce emissions by 17 percent by 

13 2020. Reductions are far more necessary to keep 

14 the global average surface temperatures from 

15 rising more than two degrees Celsius. 

16 Clean Water Action works in many stages 

17 which I've seen a surge in natural gas 

18 development. As part of its job I've worked to 

19 address the very real impact particularly on low20 income communities across the country. As such I 

21 have concerns about how states may decide how to 

22 meet their emission reduction targets without 
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1 specific zero carbon targets for the EPA. 

2 While I recognize that this rule is 

3 specifically geared towards reducing smoke stack 

4 Co2 emissions, energy decisions are not made in a 

5 vacuum. The approach states take in order to 

6 achieve their reductions is a result of the 

7 framework set by EPA.

8 As it stands right now rural American 

9 communities should brace themselves from an 

10 ongoing natural gas campaign at the expense of 

11 their air, water quality, and community health. 

12 Preliminary analysis from the American 

13 Natural Gas Association predicted that the Clean 

14 Power Plan may contribute an additional three to 

15 10 billion cubic feet per day of natural gas in 

16 the electricity supply. Is a slightly more 

17 efficient natural gas combined cycle plant the 

18 answer to our greenhouse gas emission level? 

19 While emissions from the smokestack may 

20 favor natural gas combustion over burning coal, 

21 the greenhouse gas lifecycle of natural gas from 

22 extraction through combustion mitigate many 
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1 climate benefits. This type of energy is being 

2 sold to us all. The debate on fugitive emissions 

3 is far from settled and these plants should not 

4 hinge in increasing natural gas production when 

5 its benefits are not proven and its local impacts 

6 are so potentially toxic.

7 Furthermore, on Monday the Associated 

8 Press reported that the pollution savings from 

9 coal to gas switch have been completely wiped 

10 out, due to increased coal exports. The story 

11 went on to note that the carbon dioxide contained 

12 in just one ship departing from Norfolk, Virginia 

13 export terminal equals the annual emissions of a 

14 small American power plant. This is the reality 

15 of the situation we're living in, and the reason 

16 why we are pulling so hard for deeper emission 

17 cuts. Pollution is getting outsourced while we 

18 appear to be improving our situation at home.

19 We encourage the EPA and the 

20 Administration clearly signal to states that the 

21 flexibility built into the Clean Power Plan 

22 should be met through increased capacity for 
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1 renewable energy projects. EPA must emphasize 

2 the use of zero carbon energy sources in these 

3 state flexibility plans. A healthy and 

4 sustainable future is what we all deserve, let 

5 the dissenting voices fade into or give 

6 irrelevance here today as the rest of America 

7 faces the climate challenge head on. Thank you.

8 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. 

9 Jim Lyon and Ellen Garfield. Ellen or 

10 Monica Ward. 

11 MR. LYON: Ten minutes as well, right? 

12 MR. NIEBLING: You already used four of 

13 those.

14 MR. LYON: No, I'll be extremely brief. 

15 Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. 

16 And I do appreciate staff stamina. And doing it 

17 right to make sure that the public at large has 

18 an opportunity to engage on this issue. It's 

19 very important and I know this is a lot of work 

20 for you all.

21 My name is Jim Lyon. I live in Virginia. 

22 I also work for the National Wildlife Federation. 
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1 I strongly support EPA's actions to set limits 

2 and carbon pollution on existing power plants in 

3 order to address the growing impacts of global 

4 climate change.

5 I'm here today wearing two hats. I'm a 

6 professional who works to protect wildlife for 

7 our children's future. I'm also a father of two. 

8 My wife and I have always worked hard to make 

9 sure that our kids are safe and that we've got a 

10 better life to give them in the future. So we 

11 all have an obligation to protect our children 

12 and the future generations from the impact of 

13 climate change, but we also have an obligation to 

14 protect wildlife and natural resources that are 

15 on the front lines of climate change. Wildlife 

16 is the first to feel the impacts from a warming 

17 climate because it affects their habitat, and the 

18 changes are already happening. 

19 Scientists are telling us that unless we 

20 change the course that we're on, quite a few 

21 species, unable to adapt to the changes, are 

22 going to go extinct in the coming years and the 
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1 natural habitat that other species depend on will 

2 be altered in radical ways, whether it's the 

3 permanent drought that's causing desertification, 

4 rising sea levels that's going to destroy 

5 wetlands and freshwater estuaries, radical 

6 diminishment of native vegetation and plant life 

7 and fragile ecosystems, the accelerated expansion 

8 of invasive pests, and plant species that push 

9 out native species.

10 Just as wildlife and habitat are impacted 

11 by a warming world, so of course is the human 

12 habitat affected as well. And you've heard much, 

13 and you will hear more, I'm sure, in testimony 

14 about what it means to people in communities and 

15 what it will mean to all of our future if we 

16 don't begin to take action now.

17 EPA's Clean Power Plan is a major step in 

18 the right direction. This plan will help speed 

19 the way to a future that as we invest more in 

20 wildlife friendly sources of clean energy and 

21 less in fuels that pollute our air, water, and 

22 harm the climate. 
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1 By reducing the reliance on coal burning 

2 power plants in the U.S. the Clean Power Plan 

3 will protect wildlife by reducing not only carbon 

4 pollution but other harmful pollutants that come 

5 with it, like mercury that poison fish and 

6 threaten those that eat it.

7 So as you finalize these standards please 

8 do so with the deepest reductions possible by 

9 requiring states to use wildlife friendly 

10 renewable energy and energy efficiency, not just 

11 simply more natural gas. The recent boom in 

12 natural gas development in the U.S. has also 

13 skyrocketed methane leakage into the atmosphere, 

14 which if course is compounding the greenhouse gas 

15 challenge in front of us. 

16 So we need to move quickly towards a 

17 clean energy future that helps us maintain the 

18 climate, but also powers our future economy. All 

19 of us here either have kids or are part of 

20 families that have kids. And this is a national 

21 gut check time. We've got to do it for their 

22 future. 
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1 So thank you for the opportunity to 

2 supply. 

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. In response to 

4 your first point we noticed that an immense 

5 amount of time was spent on that.

6 MS. LYON: Thank you. 

7 MR. NIEBLING: Monica Ward or Ellen 

8 Barfield.

9 Monica Ward and Ellen Barfield. 

10 MS. BARFIELD: Good morning, ladies and 

11 Gentlemen. I'm Ellen Barfield from Baltimore. 

12 I'm a full-time peace and justice activist, but 

13 also participate in a lot of environmental work. 

14 I'm honored to speak here today in 

15 support of a planned government project. EPA's 

16 Clean Power Plan is very long overdue, but 

17 finally a good step toward reining in carbon 

18 dioxide emissions from power plants.

19 Though enforcement continues to be a 

20 problem we do have laws on the books to regulate 

21 all kinds of damaging substances. Mercury and 

22 sulfur in the air, lead, cadmium and chromium and 
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1 so many others in water and soil, poisonous flame 

2 retardants in children's clothes and bedding. 

3 The difficulty with carbon dioxide is 

4 that it doesn't immediately poison or asphyxiate 

5 an individual so it's easier to ignore the 

6 growing climate disruption it's causing when you 

7 have a financial reason to do so. But the vast 

8 majority of scientists now, except those in the 

9 employ of the fossil fuel industry, agree that 

10 Co2 released into the atmosphere in massive 

11 quantities is warming the Earth and causing 

12 climate change.

13 In my own hometown of Baltimore, 

14 Maryland, this year's weather is distinctly 

15 abnormal. Lots of rain and very cool. Last 

16 night it was 60 degrees. In late July? 

17 My husband and I are fortunate to live 

18 above the falls of the Falls River, about 300 

19 feet in elevation, so flooding does not threaten 

20 us soon, but in a port city many neighbor's homes 

21 are at risk and other friends in coastal Virginia 

22 are already facing losing their property.
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1 My father and nephew live in the 

2 panhandle of Texas, and a daughter-in-law and her 

3 family in Oklahoma. For years now they have seen 

4 prairie fire scorch thousands of square miles, 

5 kill grazing cattle, and threaten cities. The 

6 entire U.S., Southwest, is experiencing over a 

7 decade of drought and may become unlivable when 

8 ground water reserves are pumped dry. 

9 The Colorado River, which serves seven 

10 states and waters the huge fruit and vegetable 

11 fields of California, has not flowed all the way 

12 to the Pacific Ocean in years and now approaches 

13 total depletion. 

14 Though it seems I have strong lungs I 

15 have witnessed my husband, my father, and my 

16 brother, all struggle to catch their next breath 

17 while having asthma attacks. Air quality impacts 

18 from coal-fired power plants are a serious threat 

19 to so many people's health. 

20 The American Lung Association gives 

21 Baltimore an F grade for ozone, and a D for 

22 particulates in the air. In a coastal city air 
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1 that bad is shocking. But with so many coal 

2 fired plants dumping massive pollution into the 

3 prevailing winds to the northeast, toward 

4 Baltimore, along with incinerators and far too 

5 many cars, Baltimore air is pretty terrible and 

6 so many people suffer from it.

7 The other large group resisting ending 

8 the fossil fuel era is unions. They sadly are 

9 very shortsighted, clinging desperately to old 

10 jobs instead of embracing the obvious green 

11 energy future. Solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, 

12 not natural gas and not nuclear. But there are 

13 so many great green ways to generate energy. 

14 Retrofitting dirty old fossil fueled power plants 

15 and insulating and tightening up existing homes 

16 and other buildings will provide so many green 

17 and morally clean jobs.

18 Unions and workers can be some of the 

19 best advocates for the green future, if they are 

20 educated and inspired. 

21 Please EPA, stand by and strengthen your 

22 proposed Clean Power Plan and help workers and 
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1 citizens understand the great opportunities that 

2 our society faces. 

3 Please set firmly in place, at least a 40 

4 percent reduction in Co2 emissions soon. Know 

5 that a majority supports you. Please stand firm 

6 against the nay Sayers, do the right thing and 

7 move quickly to even stronger limits on Co2 and 

8 other pollution. Thank you.

9 MS. WARD: Good morning and thank you for 

10 having me here today to discuss the importance of 

11 strong carbon emissions standards to small 

12 business owners. My name is Monica Ward and I'm 

13 the owner of Eskabubble, a marketing, consulting, 

14 and contract services firm based in Virginia 

15 Beach.

16 Climate change and clean energy standards 

17 are important issues facing my business and many 

18 others across the nation. Small employers like 

19 me support strong clean energy standards because 

20 we realize that carbon pollution is linked to 

21 climate change and extreme weather. And more and 

22 more extreme weather has been impacting our 
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1 bottom lines. 

2 Small Business Majority a national 

3 nonprofit small organization, found that climate 

4 change and extreme weather are causing such 

5 financial hardships for small employers that the 

6 majority of entrepreneurs affected by an extreme 

7 weather event have experienced a significant 

8 financial impact to their companies. And some 

9 have had to lay off employees.

10 Additionally, the vast majority of 

11 respondents have had to close their businesses 

12 for up to a week after extreme weather, and some 

13 were forced to close for as long as 14 to 30 

14 days. 

15 I can tell you firsthand just how 

16 devastating extreme weather can be to a small 

17 business. My business was hit especially hard by 

18 the extreme winter storms we experienced this 

19 year across the mid-Atlantic. I was forced to 

20 postpone and reschedule delivery on 50 percent of 

21 contracted services, which reduced our time 

22 available overall.
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1 The end result was significant revenue 

2 loss in the first quarter of 2014, the most 

3 crucial calendar quarter to my business. What's 

4 more, since 2011 I've had to take time for 

5 running typical business aspects in order to 

6 modify safety protocols multiple times and create 

7 an extreme weather preparation plan.

8 Whenever my team works outdoors for 

9 marketing events, I need to guarantee that we're 

10 prepared in case of extreme weather because we 

11 are simultaneously responsible for the safety of 

12 each other, our customers, and the public. 

13 I believe that small business owners will 

14 find themselves increasing their preparations for 

15 extreme weather as it unfortunately might become 

16 all too common. This is because research shows 

17 small businesses are particularly at risk from 

18 the effects of climate change and the extreme 

19 weather it causes. In fact, an estimated 25 

20 percent of small to mid-sized businesses do not 

21 reopen following a major disaster. Most small 

22 businesses have a single location which makes 
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1 them much more vulnerable to loss, compared to 

2 larger businesses that have backup resources at 

3 multiple locations.

4 As a result small businesses are more 

5 heavily impacted by power outages, the absence of 

6 employees, supply chain interruptions, rising 

7 insurance cost, and more. 

8 It should come as no surprise, then that 

9 the small business majority found in a national 

10 poll that 52 percent of entrepreneurs support the 

11 EPA regulated carbon emissions from existing 

12 power plants that cause climate change, and 76 

13 percent are in favor of requiring new power 

14 plants to reduce carbon pollution.

15 Along with helping to combat climate 

16 change, stronger clean energy standards can help 

17 create new business opportunities for small 

18 businesses. Small businesses, the majority of 

19 which are not required to comply with carbon 

20 emission standards themselves, will benefit as 

21 they supply the services and products to help 

22 those required to meet them. 
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1 In fact 87 percent of small business 

2 owners said that improving innovation and energy 

3 efficiency are good ways to increase prosperity 

4 for small businesses. Small business owners want 

5 innovative policies that will help mitigate 

6 extreme weather brought about by climate change. 

7 Many small business owners like myself believe 

8 strong energy standards are good for business and 

9 the economy because they cut waste, reduce energy 

10 cost, and create business opportunities. 

11 We believe clean energy can help 

12 stimulate the economy and create new jobs now, 

13 all while addressing the issues that are 

14 contributing to extreme weather. Despite strong 

15 small business support, adverse to set standards 

16 reducing carbon emissions have been blocked over 

17 and over. 

18 That comes at the expense of all of our 

19 futures. So it's important for the EPA to know 

20 that its proposal to limit carbon emissions from 

21 existing power plants is strongly supported by 

22 the small business community. 
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1 God’s speed. Thank you.

2 MR. NIEBLING: Monica, I didn't quite 

3 catch the name of your business. Do you mind 

4 repeating it and spelling it?

5 MS. WARD: Not at all. It's Eskabubble, 

6 E-S-K-A and then B-U-B-B-L-E, all one word.

7 MR. NIEBLING: Okay.

8 MS. WARD: It's a made up name -- I'll 

9 share this with you. It's from -- that's the 

10 name of my imaginary childhood friend, who was a 

11 bubble fish from the ocean who went around doing 

12 good clean green things all the time. 

13 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much.

14 MS. WARD: Thank you.

15 MR. NIEBLING: Next up I would like to 

16 invite Braden Boulanger and Hiruy Hadgu. 

17 MR. BOULANGER: Good afternoon. My name 

18 is Braden Boulanger. I work with TransAlta. 

19 Particularly I'm here representing the TransAlta 

20 Energy Market in the U.S. We are a power 

21 marketer that operates in Western United States. 

22 Here to speak today just about some of the 
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1 effects we see that we'd like to talk about for 

2 consideration as you develop your plan. 

3 One thing we'd really like EPA to 

4 consider is just the effects overlapping or 

5 nonregionalized programs. Kind of some of the 

6 effects that could happen if one state chooses 

7 not to link up with other states, or if there's 

8 plans that overlap or are not fully harmonized 

9 with each other. 

10 When we look at the electricity industry, 

11 particularly a lot of the merchants' facilities, 

12 it's very difficult to think about scenarios in 

13 which certain states might have requirements that 

14 are not fluid with other states. That's both 

15 from a potential carbon trading perspective, but 

16 also through the ability to trade electricity. 

17 A particular example right now is 

18 California's cap and trade program, regulates 

19 imported electricity and charges a, for lack of a 

20 better term, an import tariff for the carbon 

21 associated with the imports. 

22 One thing we'd like you to consider is 
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1 just the effects of a program like that and how 

2 you think the EPA could work with the different 

3 states to make sure that if a state such as 

4 Washington or Oregon is meeting their 

5 requirements under your program through their set 

6 plan, how the EPA can play a role in making sure 

7 that you're not having to not only meet your 

8 requirements in the state, but also how that 

9 program will work with the other markets around. 

10 So our particular interest is working 

11 with the EPA and making sure that there is a 

12 common currency or a common understanding about 

13 how to convert one type of carbon program to 

14 another program to ensure that there is at least 

15 a mechanism for fluidity between any sort of 

16 carbon currency that emerges, and help that work 

17 into the power trading industry. So, thank you 

18 for your time.

19 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. We would 

20 welcome technical comments on how that accounting 

21 will work.

22 MR. BOULANGER: Very good. Thank you.
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1 MR. HADGU: Good morning. My name is 

2 Hiruy Hadgu. I'm a nuclear engineer and I'm also 

3 an environmentalist. 

4 Let me thank you for allowing me to speak 

5 today. Let me first say that I support the EPA's 

6 efforts in reducing carbon and ensuring a cleaner 

7 environment for us and future generations. 

8 I'm here to speak about nuclear power and 

9 its immense potential to help states meet their 

10 goals of using more environmentally friendly 

11 energy resources. Currently nuclear power 

12 produces 20 percent of our electricity and two13 thirds of our carbon free electricity. 

14 Three concerns are normally cited when 

15 considering nuclear power as a resource. It's 

16 cost, it's so-called waste, and risks of 

17 proliferation. 

18 The economic cost of climate change and 

19 inaction computed using the discount rate 

20 methodology far outweighs the initial cost of 

21 nuclear power. Considering the ability of 

22 nuclear power plants to withstand extreme climate 
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1 conditions like this past winter and Hurricane 

2 Sandy, this is an investment that should be made, 

3 and it's worth making.

4 The so-called waste that comes out of 

5 U.S. power plants represents 90 to 95 percent of 

6 untapped energy if recycled or reprocessed. In 

7 the meantime we currently have proven technology 

8 that can store them in dry canisters until a 

9 comprehensive energy solution is reached by 

10 Congress.

11 Proliferation has not been and will not 

12 be an issue with continued diligence in 

13 nonproliferation efforts. Moreover, countries 

14 such as China are going full steam ahead with 

15 their plans of building more power plants, 

16 nuclear power plants, despite such concerns.

17 France has been using nuclear power from 

18 the 1970s and they currently produce 70 percent 

19 of all their electricity from nuclear. 

20 I am calling for rules that make it more 

21 favorable for nuclear because I believe it is 

22 truly the most green, sustainable, reliable, and 
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1 carbon free resource we currently have. Thank 

2 you.

3 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. Would you mind 

4 spelling your name for the reporter, please?

5 MR. HADGU: Sure. H-I-R-U-Y, first name. 

6 Last name, H-A-D-G-U.

7 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And Dawone 

8 Robinson, please. 

9 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning. My name is 

10 Dawone Robinson. I am --

11 MR. NIEBLING: I'm sorry. 

12 MR. ROBINSON: That's fine. I can --

13 it's a lot. 

14 Dawone Robinson, I am the Virginia Policy 

15 Director for the Chesapeake Climate Action at 

16 Work. My organization is comprised of about 

17 10,000 supporters in the State of Virginia, all

18 of whom are concerned about the effects of 

19 worsening climate change and have been pretty 

20 disappointed, I would say, at least up until 

21 recently, with the inaction of our nation's 

22 leaders and rule makers and other officials in 
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1 dealing with climate change on a national scale. 

2 But I want to thank you very much for 

3 your time and for convening this process to hear 

4 public comments on these important carbon rules. 

5 As I mentioned before, our organization 

6 works on policy matters relating to climate 

7 change in Virginia. Coastal Virginia is ground 

8 zero, so to speak, for the climate crisis. 

9 Hampton Roads has been dubiously named the second 

10 most dangerous metropolitan area in the nation 

11 when it comes to sea level rise, behind only New 

12 Orleans. And our nation has experienced the 

13 painful effects for Hurricane Katrina, most 

14 recently Hurricane Sandy, and these events will 

15 become much more severe and of course more 

16 frustratingly difficult to predict of our nation 

17 doesn't take a leading role in reducing these 

18 carbon emissions which leads to worsening climate 

19 change.

20 So, this rule making, particularly by 

21 EPA, to regulate greenhouse gas emissions under 

22 the Clean Air Act is a good start in effort to 
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1 reduce the greenhouse gas emissions and is indeed 

2 historic and unprecedented.

3 There are those who would argue 

4 otherwise, I guess. Defenders of the status quo, 

5 big fossil fuel industries, who have attacked 

6 this rule for the same reason that I praise it, 

7 is that it is historic and unprecedented. But I 

8 would like to urge the EPA and everyone to keep 

9 in mind the dangerous effects of climate change, 

10 sea level rise, severe weather, that are all 

11 occurring at historic and unprecedented levels. 

12 These actions require what I call an equal and 

13 opposite reaction, bold historic rule making to 

14 fight back.

15 But I also urge the EPA and various law 

16 makers and administration officials to bear in 

17 mind the preeminent rule and the preeminent 

18 reason for making the rule, which is climate 

19 change. Now while Co2 is a very harmful air 

20 pollutant that is being regulated, I would like 

21 to draw attention to methane leakage and to our 

22 environment which is not currently burning of 
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1 methane, natural gas plants, and leakage methane 

2 from fracked natural gas wells is a significantly 

3 greater contributor to climate change and its 

4 life cycle. As natural gas prices remain at 

5 historic low levels in utilities across the 

6 nations are aggressively pursuing this option in 

7 lieu of coal, I would just urge the EPA to 

8 closely analyze the nation's natural gas 

9 projections over the next decade or more and 

10 consider whether the carbon rules are aggressive 

11 enough to offset these increases in natural gas 

12 and resulting burning of the methane that results 

13 from it. 

14 So those are the extent of my comments 

15 and I thank you very much for your time.

16 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you very much. 

17 Would you mind spelling your name, sir?

18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Dawone, D-A-W-O-N-E, 

19 last name Robinson. 

20 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. With that we 

21 have reached a temporary pause. I think we've 

22 all been good about being brief and so we're a 
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1 little ahead of schedule, so we will stand in 

2 recess for a few moments and come back in five or 

3 10 minutes from now. We have another raft of 

4 people ready to speak to us. Thank you.

5 (Recess from 11:10 a.m. until 11:35 a.m.)

6 MR. NIEBLING: Hello and welcome back. 

7 Thank you for allowing that recess. We have two 

8 people ready to go now so I'd like to invite up 

9 Ed Ablard and Elliot Long, please.

10 MR. ABLARD: My name is Ed Ablard. I now 

11 live in Wilmington, North Carolina. I graduated 

12 from GW Law School in 1968, lived in southern 

13 Virginia until December of 2012 when we moved to 

14 Wilmington, North Carolina where the air is 

15 better. And the reason is because we shut down 

16 the coal-fired power plant in the neighborhood in 

17 Wilmington, North Carolina, at the end of 2013. 

18 So I'm back up here today and I had to 

19 take an allergy pill. So, comment on your air.

20 My organization is Organizing for Action. 

21 You might recognize the logos. It's a 

22 nonpartisan nonprofit. From June the 14th until 
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1 moments ago I've been collecting signatures on a 

2 petition. This is the words, I will read them in 

3 to you, and I've got about 500 names. 

4 Unfortunately our system for inputting this is 

5 not up to the strain and so I want to just enter 

6 these in. 

7 I collected each one of these, talked to 

8 the people, and they strongly support 

9 Environmental Protection Agency's standards. 

10 Five hundred people. That's probably more than 

11 you've seen so far today. So, that's in addition 

12 to the people you've heard from. They all 

13 believe in that this will protect American's 

14 health, spur investment, clean energy. And 

15 they're somewhat dubious about unleashing 

16 American innovation. They signed the petition 

17 anyway. So we hope that that will come through.

18 Yesterday I organized a hearing on the 

19 waterfront in front of the Federal Building, on 

20 the city property, on behalf of Climate Parents 

21 and we had above 20 people talking to the press. 

22 Our speakers are longtime members of the 
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1 community down there from the academia, from the 

2 Coastal Federation, for Commissioner Jonathan 

3 Barfield from the County Commissioner of New 

4 Hanover County. And the League of Conservation 

5 Voters was represented by Mack Montgomery. 

6 So we had a Climate Parent mom come all 

7 the way from Fayetteville to talk, and I'm sure 

8 Climate Parents is going to file something here 

9 before the end of the -- but I wanted to let you 

10 know we are active down there and we're really 

11 concerned about this because we know the benefits 

12 that can come from cleaning up the environment. 

13 We're worried about a couple of things. They 

14 want to put in a coal-fired cement plant and 

15 they're running a coal-fired steam plant across 

16 the river, down the road in south port. 

17 So I'm not sure that these regulations 

18 have ever reached there unless you expand the 

19 scope. 

20 So I'm going to take off both of those 

21 hats now and just tell you what I'm thinking. I 

22 attended clean water hearings, and while I was 
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1 still here in Virginia in the timeframe of 2012, 

2 maybe late 2011. And members of the Virginia 

3 Committee came to those hearings and there were 

4 official representatives of organizations there, 

5 and the pervasive feeling in the hearing room, or 

6 the meeting room was -- and the people who were 

7 opposing were not in good faith. They were not 

8 cooperating. 

9 I think that this whole thing that you're 

10 lodged with depends on cooperation. I urge you 

11 to look at the rules about cooperation and do 

12 something about aiding people who come to testify 

13 and those public officials that are representing 

14 the states come forward with good faith 

15 objections and come forward in a spirit of 

16 cooperation.

17 You may have read about the moral 

18 majority. Moral Mundy's goings on, and this is a 

19 true -- a citizen's boom and I participated along 

20 with my brother, Rick, who is here today. We're 

21 going to try and straighten North Carolina out, 

22 but we need federal help to straighten our air 
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1 and our water out. So, I urge you to finalize 

2 these regulations as soon as possible. Come on 

3 down and see us. We've got great weather.

4 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. And I know you 

5 were ready to speak before the break, so thank 

6 you for your patience. 

7 MR. ABLARD: Thanks.

8 MR. LONG: Good morning and thank you for 

9 having me here today to discuss the importance of 

10 strong carbon emission standards to small 

11 businesses. 

12 My name is Elliot Long and I'm the Policy 

13 and Development Associate for Small Business 

14 Majority. 

15 Small Business Majority is a nonprofit, 

16 nonpartisan, small business organization founded 

17 and run by small business owners and focused on 

18 solving the biggest problems facing small 

19 businesses today. We represent the 28 million 

20 Americans who are self-employed or own businesses 

21 of up to 100 employees.

22 Our organization uses scientific opinion 
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1 and economic research and works with our network 

2 of more than 25,000 small business owners to 

3 understand and represent the interests of the 

4 small business community.

5 Small business owners are doing 

6 everything they can to fortify their businesses 

7 in our slowly recovering economy. They are 

8 innovative, and in order to help their businesses 

9 thrive entrepreneurs are constantly looking for 

10 ways to cut costs and identify new business 

11 opportunities. 

12 The new carbon emission standards 

13 proposed by the EPA will do both, which is why 

14 the majority of entrepreneurs support this rule. 

15 Small Business Majority pulled a random 

16 sample of small business owners across the 

17 country and found 52 percent support the EPA 

18 regulating carbon emissions from existing power 

19 plants that cause climate change. And 76 percent 

20 are in favor or requiring new power plants to 

21 reduce carbon pollution. 

22 What's more, the vast majority believes 
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1 investing in clean energy can stimulate the 

2 economy and create jobs now. These small 

3 business owners run the gamut of industries and 

4 political identification as well with 37 percent 

5 identifying as Republican, 30 percent as 

6 Democrat, and 33 percent as independent or other.

7 Small employers support strong clean 

8 energy standards because they realize carbon 

9 pollution is linked to climate change and extreme 

10 weather. More and more extreme weather has been 

11 hitting small employers where it hurts the most. 

12 Our polling revealed climate change and extreme 

13 weather events are causing real financial 

14 hardships for small employers. So much so that 

15 the majority of entrepreneurs affected by an 

16 extreme weather event had experienced a 

17 significant financial impact to their companies, 

18 and some have even had to lay off employees.

19 Research shows small businesses are 

20 particularly at risk from the effects of climate 

21 change and the extreme weather events it causes. 

22 In fact, an estimated 25 percent of small to mid-
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1 sized businesses do not reopen following a major 

2 disaster. Most small businesses have a single 

3 branch or location site which makes them more 

4 vulnerable to loss compared to larger businesses 

5 that have back up resources at other facilities 

6 or locations. 

7 As a result small businesses are more 

8 heavily impacted by power outages, the absence of 

9 employees, supply chain interruptions, rising 

10 insurance costs, and more. 

11 In fact, our poll found the vast majority 

12 of respondents have had to close their business 

13 for up to a week after an extreme weather event, 

14 and some owners say they've had to close for as 

15 long 14 to 30 days. It should come as no 

16 surprise then that 57 percent of small businesses 

17 across the country believe climate change and 

18 extreme weather events like Hurricane Sandy are 

19 an urgent problem that can disrupt the economy 

20 and harm small businesses. 

21 Along with helping to combat climate 

22 change, stronger clean energy standards can help 
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1 create new business opportunities for small 

2 businesses. Entrepreneurs believe allowing the 

3 EPA to regulate harmful carbon emissions could 

4 help stabilize the market and set clear goals for 

5 our nation's future and the clean energy economy.

6 Small businesses, the majority of which 

7 are unaffected by the standards themselves, will 

8 benefit as they supply the services and products 

9 to help those who do have to meet them. 

10 Entrepreneurs could confidently innovate and 

11 create jobs knowing that the future would hold 

12 long-term financial returns resulting from the 

13 new standards. 

14 Our poll numbers prove that small 

15 employers are committed to this type of future. 

16 Eighty-seven percent of these small business 

17 owners said that improving innovation and energy 

18 efficiency are good ways to increase prosperity 

19 for small businesses. 

20 As our polling shows small businesses 

21 believe a clean energy economy that includes 

22 robust clean energy standards is rife with 
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1 economic possibilities. Entrepreneurs understand 

2 clean energy can stimulate the economy and create 

3 jobs now. I believe you should be investing in 

4 this area to spur growth. Despite strong small 

5 business support efforts to set standards 

6 reducing carbon emissions have been blocked over 

7 and over. That comes at the expense of our 

8 economic future. 

9 Small businesses make up the backbone of 

10 our economy. For every one large business in 

11 America there are more than 1,400 small business 

12 owners, small businesses diligently working to 

13 reenergize the economy. These entrepreneurs are 

14 doing everything they can to hire, grow, and move 

15 their business forward. As part of these efforts 

16 they want pragmatic innovative policies that help 

17 guide them into a modern clean energy economy and 

18 that will mitigate extreme weather events brought 

19 about by climate change which can hurt their 

20 profit margins.

21 This includes strengthening EPA standards 

22 of carbon emissions that get into the air from 
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1 power plants. 

2 It's important the EPA know its proposal 

3 to limit carbon emissions from existing power 

4 plants is one small businesses support. Thank 

5 you.

6 MR. NIEBLING: Thank you. At this moment 

7 we do not have anyone else in the cue to -- so we 

8 will once again take a brief recess.

9 (Brief recess.)

10 MR. NIEBLING: Hello again. We have been 

11 efficient this morning and I believe we have 

12 exhausted our list for the morning session. So, 

13 with that we will adjourn until 1:00 p.m. and 

14 we'll resume with our afternoon session. Thank 

15 you for your attendance and your testimony as 

16 well.

17 (Luncheon recess from 11:50 a.m. until 

18 1:05 p.m.)

19

20

21

22
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 MR. DEMOCKER: Okay. With the first 

3 nominees we'll get started here. Good afternoon. 

4 My name is Jim DeMocker and I'm Director of the 

5 Office of Policy Analysis and Review in the EPA 

6 office of air and radiation, and I'm one of the 

7 chairs of today's public hearing. Thank you for 

8 coming today.

9 Joining me on the panel this afternoon is 

10 Jim Ketcham-Colwill, who is also in the Office of 

11 Policy and Analysis Review, and Glenn Sheriff who 

12 is in our National Center for Environmental 

13 Economics and the Office of Policy.

14 So we're here today to listen to your 

15 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

16 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

17 of these proposed rules in June 2nd, 2014. Power 

18 plants are the largest source of carbon pollution 

19 in the U.S., accounting for roughly one third of 

20 all domestic greenhouse gas emissions.

21 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

22 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 
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1 proposal consists of two main parts, state 

2 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

3 power plants, and guidelines to help states 

4 develop their plans for meeting the goals. This 

5 proposal gives states flexibility in determining 

6 how to meet their goals. States will choose what 

7 goes into their plans to show how they will 

8 achieve the needed reductions and meet their 

9 goals by 2030. 

10 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

11 address carbon dioxide emissions for modified and 

12 reconstructed power plants. This rule would set 

13 emissions limits for two groups of power plants, 

14 those that make physical or operational changes 

15 that increase a plant's maximum achievable hourly 

16 rate of emissions, and those that replace 

17 compliments to such an extent that the new 

18 components exceed 50 percent of the capital cost 

19 of an entirely new comparable facility.

20 If you'd like more details on either of 

21 these proposed rules there are fact sheets 

22 available near the registration desk. Today's 
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1 hearing is one of four public hearings across the 

2 country this week on the two proposed rules. 

3 We've had tremendous interest in each of these 

4 hearings and I'd like to thank you for taking 

5 time out of your day today to join us and share 

6 your comments.

7 We do have a lot of people signed up to 

8 speak today and we want to hear from all of them. 

9 So before we get started I'd like to go through a 

10 few housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

11 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

12 First, please be sure you're checked in 

13 at the registration desk, even if you're not 

14 planning to speak to day. And if you signed up 

15 to speak online or by phone, but haven't told us 

16 that you're here, please step out to the 

17 registration desk and let the EPA staff know 

18 there that you've arrived.

19 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

20 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

21 or Room B. This is Room B. Are you in the right 

22 room? If not, this is a good time to switch.
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1 All right. So here is how today's 

2 hearing will work. I will call speakers up in 

3 pairs. When your name is called please come to 

4 the table at the front of the room. When I call 

5 on you to speak please state your name and spell 

6 it for the court reporter. Your comments will be 

7 transcribed and included in the record of 

8 comments on the proposed rule.

9 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

10 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

11 how much time you have left to speak. When the 

12 light turns from green to yellow that means you 

13 have one minute remaining. When it turns red, 

14 that's a signal to wrap up your testimony. The 

15 light will flash red and beep when you have 

16 spoken for five minutes and it is time to stop. 

17 Although I actually tested it and it didn't flash 

18 or beep, so I will beep for us.

19 So, when you're finished speaking please 

20 remain at the table until the person next to you 

21 has completed his or her testimony. We're here 

22 to listen to you today, however a panel member 
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1 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. 

2 I will then call up the next pair of speakers and 

3 so on.

4 If you've brought a written copy of your 

5 testimony please give that to the staff at the 

6 registration desk before you leave today. 

7 Because of the large number of people who 

8 have signed up to speak today, and to be fair to 

9 everyone, we're going to have to strictly enforce 

10 the five-minute limit. 

11 If you have additional comments you'd 

12 like to make you can submit them in writing. Let 

13 me assure you that EPA gives just as much 

14 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

15 as we do to comments we receive at public 

16 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

17 you'd like to say, please submit it. Your 

18 comments will be reviewed. There's still plenty 

19 of time to get written comments in, and there are 

20 comment cards available at the registration desk. 

21 Comments must be received by October 16th, 2014. 

22 We will put any written comments submitted today 
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1 in the official docket for the proposed rule. 

2 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

3 other ways are available at the materials table 

4 near the registration desk.

5 So we're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

6 tonight, and we'll take a dinner break so 

7 everyone can get something to eat. Right now the 

8 dinner break is scheduled for 5:00. In addition 

9 we may take occasional short breaks throughout 

10 the session as needed.

11 If you have any questions please see the 

12 staff at the registration desk and someone will 

13 try to help you. Finally, I want to ask each of 

14 you to please be respectful of everyone who 

15 speaks today. We have people with a wide variety 

16 of views in the audience and we want to hear from 

17 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 

18 everyone we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

19 Even applause can slow things down and we want to 

20 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

21 Thank you again for taking the time today 

22 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rules. 
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1 Let's get started. 

2 All right. So the first speaker is Kevin 

3 Turf and Dr. Jalonne White-Newsome. If you'd 

4 come up to the table, please. 

5 Is Kevin Turf here? 

6 (No audible response.)

7 MR. DEMOCKER: You get the table to 

8 yourself. So. 

9 DR. WHITE-NEWSOME: Do you want me to 

10 spell my name?

11 MR. DEMOCKER: We know it, so thank you.

12 DR. WHITE-NEWSOME: Okay. Okay.

13 MR. DEMOCKER: We've got it here.

14 DR. WHITE-NEWSOME: Okay. Thank you for 

15 the opportunity to testify today EPA's proposed 

16 Clean Power Plan. My name is Dr. Jalonne White17 Newsome and I'm with a rural community-based 

18 organization working to build opportunities 

19 through education, advocacy, and research, 

20 specifically for low-income communities of color. 

21 We can no longer deny that emissions of 

22 carbon dioxide continue to dampen our resilience 
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1 to the biggest public health threat of this 

2 century, which is climate change. So your job in 

3 how this plan is operationalized, is mission 

4 critical to protect the health, welfare, and 

5 quality of life for Americans, especially those 

6 living in communities that are constantly 

7 breathing in a myriad of carbon dioxide and other 

8 co-pollutants. 

9 So while we have the support of all EPA 

10 staffers to the climate action plan to reduce 

11 emissions of toxic pollutants, we do have some 

12 concerns that we would like to share regarding 

13 the potential environmental justice 

14 implementations of this plan.

15 I'll briefly touch on just three. The 

16 SIP process, mitigation managers, and credits. 

17 I'll start with SIP process. 

18 The SIP process. Because the plan offers 

19 immediate options, this is great for states to 

20 meet the designated emission goals. And it's 

21 critical that an EJ analysis was conducted and 

22 really a part of the SIP process. Some states 
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1 will focus on improving demand-side efficiencies, 

2 others will look at raising their renewable 

3 portfolio standards and other mitigation tactics. 

4 But really understanding how these measures could 

5 impact low-income communities of color is 

6 critical. 

7 So not only should an EJ analysis be 

8 required as a part of the SIP process, but states 

9 should be required to develop multi-pollutant 

10 plans similar to that of Colorado because often 

11 times in EJ communities Co2, in addition to other 

12 pollutants, really drive those negative counts. 

13 Secondly, I want to speak freely about mitigation 

14 practices. The plan seems to be very slighted 

15 towards cap and trade being the most viable 

16 option to meet carbon emissions, and other 

17 options should be presented, such as, carbon tax, 

18 permit price, et cetera. 

19 But if cap and trade is given as an 

20 option, there must be controls integrated into 

21 the process to make sure that reductions are 

22 actually happening in communities that are being 
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1 impacted. Offsets are allowing the most 

2 polluting companies to buy their way out of the 

3 compliance is not acceptable. 

4 We recommend that the EPA use other 

5 options that can reduce these disparate impacts 

6 of cap and trade, such as maybe identifying high 

7 priority or pollution zones where polluters would 

8 pay a higher carbon tax or a permit price to give 

9 a stronger incentive for industries to reduce 

10 emissions and for creating a community benefit 

11 fund where some fraction of the revenues from the 

12 carbon tax or the permit options are channeled 

13 into measures that actually mitigate co-pollutant 

14 impacts and enhance community resilience.

15 And last but not least I want to speak 

16 about credits. We feel that the burning of bio17 mass should not be counted as a credit towards 

18 reducing carbon emissions. Biomass burning often 

19 creates more of a health hazard than other 

20 mitigation strategies. And so the elimination of 

21 burning bio-mass as well as carbon caption 

22 sequencing and sequestration or CCS, which those 
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1 processes are typically sited in EJ communities 

2 should not really be viable options in our case 

3 to receive credit for emission reductions. And 

4 that should really be reconsidered.

5 So there are more comments that we will 

6 address at a later date with more detail, but we 

7 hope that you will, as you write this rule, 

8 reflect on the principles of environmental 

9 justice, the climate justice principles for 

10 guidance, and also remember the intent of the 

11 executive order, 12898, and Title 6 of the Civil 

12 Rights Act, because all of these things play into 

13 this plan in some way.

14 So in conclusion, we appreciate the EPA's 

15 efforts. We hope that you strongly consider 

16 making an EJ analysis of part of the SIP 

17 implementation -- SIP process, that you also 

18 carefully provide a balanced selection of 

19 mitigation options that is not so leaning towards 

20 cap and trade, and then remove any credits for 

21 bio-mass burning and carbon capture and 

22 sequestration to ensure that the civil and the 
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1 human rights of all Americans are upheld. So 

2 thank you for your time.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Okay. 

4 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your 

5 name, please? Spell your name.

6 MR. DEMOCKER: I guess she did need it. 

7 Sorry.

8

9 DR. WHITE-NEWSOME: Yes, ma'am. J-A-L-O10 N-N-E, White, W-H-I-T-E, hyphen, Newsome, N-E-W11 S-O-M-E.

12 MR. DEMOCKER: Thanks. All right. The 

13 next two speakers are -- I’m not sure if this is 

14 supposed to be Cheryl or Shirley, Pyrch, P-Y-R-C15 H. And Reverend Dele, D-E-L-E, I think. My 

16 apologies if I happen to have either of those 

17 wrong.

18 Is it Cheryl or Shirley?

19 MS. PYRCH: I'm Cheryl. 

20 MR. DEMOCKER: Cheryl.

21 MS. PYRCH: Cheryl, C-H-E-R-Y-L. 

22 MR. DEMOCKER: C-H-E-R-Y-L. Okay.
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1 MS. PYRCH: Yes. And that's P-Y-R-C-H.

2 MR. DEMOCKER: P-Y-R-C-H. Okay. We'll 

3 start with you.

4 MS. PYRCH: Okay. Thank you. My name is 

5 Cheryl Pyrch. I'm the pastor at Summit 

6 Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, and serve on 

7 the board of the Pennsylvania Chapter of Inter8 Faith Power and Light, people of faith responding 

9 to climate changes and moral issues. 

10 Thank you for this chance to testify in 

11 support of the Clean Power Plan. 

12 At PAIPL and in my congregation we are 

13 concerned about climate change for the reasons of 

14 justice, compassion, and gratitude for God's 

15 creation and others have spoken about it and will 

16 be speaking about.

17 But I'd like to tell a parable, the need 

18 to act quickly without delay and it's a true 

19 story.

20 Our church was built over 100 years ago. 

21 It's a massive structure made from wissahickon 

22 schist, built for a congregation of 1,000. And 
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1 for decades Summit has been one or 200 members 

2 strong. 

3 Now the leadership has cared for the 

4 building responsibly with limited resources but 

5 over the years certain projects had to be 

6 delayed. One of them was the tower. For a while

7 folks had noticed signs of troubles; small cracks 

8 and a disturbing bulge. And six years ago the 

9 trustees acted. They called in a top flight 

10 engineering firm. The engineers proposed a 

11 $56,000 solution and encouraged us to begin 

12 sooner rather than later, although there was no 

13 immediate danger. 

14 So we got into gear, raised $400,000 in a 

15 capital campaign, got calls from different 

16 contractors, and just as the work was about to 

17 begin a large stone fell from the face of the 

18 tower in the middle of the night. Then a much 

19 smaller stone fell on the head of the Deacon who 

20 was looking up at the new cracks.

21 On closer examination we learned that in 

22 the two years it had taken us to get ready, the 
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1 situation had changed. Two harsh winters, two 

2 freeze and thaw cycles, and the tower had been 

3 pushed to a tipping point and was beginning to 

4 collapse. 

5 So the engineers came up with a new plan 

6 and $188,000 later we thought we were done. But 

7 almost immediately an ominous new crack appeared 

8 in another part of the tower. More engineers, 

9 another plan, the assurance that taking it down 

10 would be even more expensive. And $330,000 later 

11 total, our tower is now secure. You can worship 

12 safely inside. 

13 But the survival of the tower came at a 

14 much greater cost than if we had known, or if we 

15 had been able to act earlier. Hundreds and 

16 thousands of dollars were spent that could have 

17 been used on other projects or ministries.

18 So after this up close and personal 

19 encounter with tipping points, we hear the 

20 scientists when they warn us of tipping points in 

21 the climate. We hear that when they tell us of 

22 cascading extinctions and the possibility of 
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1 ecosystem collapse, we understand that a fierce 

2 urgency of now in both moral and in a practical 

3 sense.

4 I, for one, am glad the EPA is acting now 

5 in spite of strong opposition. There are costs 

6 to limiting carbon. There are costs to limiting 

7 carbon emissions, and those who face loss, 

8 especially vulnerable people in the transition to 

9 a new clean energy economy must be supported. 

10 But the costs of delay are so much greater. And 

11 the stakes are so much higher than with our bell 

12 tower.

13 I hope that the final rule will be strong 

14 and will reflect climate justice principles. 

15 Thank you for your work and thank you for 

16 allowing me to testify.

17 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Reverend Dele. 

18 REV. DELE: Hi. Reverend Marjani Dele 

19 from Victoria, Virginia, and I'm a board member 

20 with the Virginia affiliate of the Inter-faith 

21 Power and Light Group. I'm also the founder of 

22 Nature's friends. Decent blessings to all.
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1 The last time I testified on behalf of 

2 standards for power plants I cited the facts from 

3 a report published by the NAACP entitled, the 

4 Cold Blooded Report, Putting Profits Before 

5 People.

6 I'm not going to repeat all of the 

7 shocking statistics contained in that report such 

8 as the death rate from asthma is 172 percent 

9 higher for African-Americans than from whites, or 

10 the fact that people who live within three miles 

11 of a coal power plant, regardless of their 

12 ethnicity, tend to have an average per capita 

13 income of $18,400. We need to be cognizant of 

14 the least of these. 

15 But today I want to speak to the moral 

16 principle behind our decision making. The 

17 principle of rightly defining the word of truth. 

18 And the reference for that principle is in Second 

19 Timothy, the second chapter, and the 15th verse. 

20 What we are asked to study to show ourselves 

21 approved, workers who never need to be ashamed, 

22 rightly divining and explaining the word of 
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1 truth.

2 I think today, we've started off on the 

3 right foot in these hearings, because hearings 

4 are a type of study. It's good to study; to 

5 listen to different points of view and 

6 perspectives so that we can make wise choices; 

7 choices that include health and wealth and 

8 wellbeing for the planet.

9 Where we tend to go a little bit astray 

10 is in defining the word of truth. We can tell we 

11 have gone a little astray because somehow in this 

12 whole energy production business we've taken an 

13 abundant and beautiful creation which was gifted 

14 to us, and we've turned it into a battlefield 

15 where we have profits against the people. There 

16 are different sides. I don't know how that 

17 happened. There's no truth in that. I don't 

18 think that's nice. It's not necessary, and it's 

19 certainly now what God asked us to do.

20 Another reference, in Genesis, the second 

21 chapter of the 15th verse, the very first thing 

22 that God asks humankind to do is to serve and 
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1 preserve the Earth. Now this was before God 

2 asked us to love each other, before he asked us 

3 to love the creator, or to treat or neighbors 

4 correctly, we were asked to love the Earth. 

5 You can say it's a type of first 

6 commandment. And it should be the easiest 

7 commandment to keep because God has already given 

8 us a beautiful, abundant, and self-generating 

9 planet. All we have to do is keep it moving. 

10 Along with that planet we were also given 

11 a lot of intelligence and power to be collators 

12 of God so we don't have to decide between our 

13 health and a job. We can create a proud and 

14 productive work culture that doesn't require 

15 tearing up the Earth. We can be wealthy and 

16 healthy.

17 And these standards, the Clean Power Plan 

18 is one step in that direction. It is a wise and 

19 correct direction. 

20 Let's remember that every time standards 

21 have been proposed in every time in history, 

22 industry has always cried and whined, kind of 
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1 like a spoiled brat. And every time the 

2 standards are pushed back, innovation saves the 

3 day. 

4 Americans are known for innovation. If 

5 we put half the energy into refining solar and 

6 wind energy that we put into fighting each other, 

7 we would already have the right solution. Don't 

8 you believe that workers in the fossil fuel 

9 industry have the right to a safe and healthy 

10 work environment? Don't they deserve the 

11 opportunity to transition into a clean energy 

12 economy with the rest of us? 

13 If you have attended the recent meeting 

14 in Riverdale, Virginia, you would have heard them 

15 saying yes, with a very resounding five to one 

16 ratio. People in Southwest, Virginia want the 

17 fossil fuel industry to obey standards which may 

18 fall safer for everyone as well as for the 

19 planet.

20 I say that the Clean Power Plan is just 

21 the kick in the pants we need to innovate 

22 ourselves into a more productive energy business. 
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1 Let's stop crying and whining and let's just do 

2 it. Thank you.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you. 

4 And I hope the Deacon of your church is okay.

5 MS. DELE: Yes, he is. 

6 MR. DEMOCKER: Good. Good.

7 All right. Next up we have Emmett 

8 McKinney and Donna McDowell.

9 All right. Let's start with Emmett, if 

10 you're ready.

11 MR. MCKINNEY: Spell it?

12 MR. DEMOCKER: And if you could spell 

13 your last -- both names, probably, for the court 

14 reporter.

15 MR. MCKINNEY: Yeah. That's Emmett, E-M16 M-E-T-T, McKinney, M-C-K-I-N-N-E-Y.

17 So, I just wanted to first say good 

18 afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to 

19 testify here today. 

20 I traveled all the way from Los Angeles 

21 to work on the Sierra Club's Beyond the Call 

22 campaign all summer, and I've traveled here today 
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1 to express my support of the Clean Power Plan. 

2 So the planning people of course, have 

3 already weighed in on the technical merits of the 

4 plan. It's not perfect but it's a start in the 

5 right direction. 

6 But I've come here today to explain why 

7 the Clean Power Plan matters to me, why it's 

8 important on a personal level. So, one of the 

9 elements that makes my hometown so beautiful, Los 

10 Angeles, is the co-existence of the beaches and 

11 the mountains. 

12 But when my father moved there in 1988, 

13 he stood on a hill and he looked out on most 

14 houses, a brown thick layer of smog. It wasn't 

15 until he lived there for about two and a half 

16 months he finally came to see that smog cleared 

17 out of the air and he saw these beautiful 

18 mountains there. And half of the story, you 

19 know, both as a testament to the progress that 

20 California made since the Clean Air Act, our air 

21 is much much cleaner than it used to be. But I 

22 still count myself lucky on the days that I can 
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1 stand on the same hill and look out into the 

2 mountains which make our state so beautiful. And 

3 also, I count myself lucky on the days that I can 

4 breathe clean air.

5 So the Clean Power Plan is EPA's Clean 

6 Air Act, a similar way as California, climate 

7 change is no longer a distant threat. It's here, 

8 and it's now. But the effects of fossil fuel 

9 consumption in California extends far beyond 

10 cleaner air. They're taking a real and vengeful 

11 toll on our economy. 

12 Just to give you an example, according to 

13 the U.S. Geological survey, as of July 22nd, 

14 2014, that's last week, the entire state is in a 

15 drought. Over eight percent of California is in 

16 extreme drought and over a third is in a very 

17 exceptional drought. In fact, the third worst on 

18 record.

19 The rivers run especially dry in the 

20 central valley, which produces half the nation's 

21 produce and a quarter of its milk. The economic 

22 costs here are big. In 2014 alone business 
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1 estimates that the drought will cost the 

2 agriculture industry $1.5 billion. State-wide it 

3 will cost tax payers $2.2 million. And they 

4 don’t call it a drought. 

5 We used to have forest fire season, but 

6 now that happens year round. In the 1980s forest 

7 fires used to claim just under 3 million acres 

8 per year. In 2010 they claimed more than 6 

9 million acres per year. Our forests, our homes, 

10 and our safety are all on the line. 

11 And of course in Los Angeles we suffer 

12 through the worst ozone pollution in the country. 

13 On too many days out of the year it's dangerous 

14 for our kids to breathe outside. Asthma attacks 

15 are commonplace. They shouldn't be, but they 

16 are. 

17 And fossil fuel corporations might try to 

18 tell you that the Clean Power Plan is an assault 

19 on the middle class. Such an environment is not 

20 only destructive, it's just plain wrong. More 

21 than anyone the middle class bears the burden of 

22 climate change.
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1 In 2014 alone California's drought will 

2 cost 17,000 seasonal agricultural jobs. Likewise 

3 the impact on ozone pollution is especially felt 

4 by low-income communities who live near 

5 factories, who live in cities, and who live near 

6 roadways. These are the same people the fossil 

7 fuel industry claims to protect. But the truth 

8 is, that these people deserve better. 

9 Investing in clean energy is the most 

10 pro-business action that the EPA can take. We 

11 might be short on water in California, but we are 

12 not short on the sun. And solar energy is 

13 already cheaper per kilowatt hour than coal to 

14 produce. 

15 The implications of climate change are 

16 clear and are important. But really, taking 

17 action to slow the warming of the air is just 

18 good business. So it is with the greatest 

19 urgency that I ask you to keep moving forward on 

20 carbon reductions. California needs it. Our 

21 economy needs it, and most of all our kids need 

22 it. Thank you.
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1 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Donna.

2 MS. MCDOWELL: Yes. Good afternoon. 

3 MR. DEMOCKER: Can you spell your name, 

4 too, for the court reporter? 

5 MS. MCDOWELL: Yes. Donna, D-O-N-N-A, 

6 McDowell, M-C, capital D-O-W-E-L-L. 

7 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you.

8 MS. MCDOWELL: Hi. Good afternoon. My 

9 name is Donna McDowell. I reside in 

10 Gaithersburg, Maryland. Although I am currently 

11 the vice-chair of the Maryland Chapter of the 

12 Sierra Club, I'm testifying here today more as a 

13 parent and a grandparent.

14 I have two grandsons, ages 8 and 10, and 

15 they play travel baseball so they travel around 

16 the State of Maryland quite a bit. 

17 I'm concerned about the world that we are 

18 leaving our children and our grandchildren. I 

19 applaud the EPA for developing carbon rules which 

20 will decrease carbon pollution across the United 

21 States. The time is now and the action is 

22 urgent. I hope it is not too late.
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1 Climatologist, Jason Box, who has studied 

2 Greenland's ice melt extensively has reported 

3 that the current ice melt in Greenland and 

4 Antarctica could result in a sea level rise of 

5 some 69 feet. 

6 In a recent article in Mother Jones 

7 Magazine Chris Mooney quotes Dr. Box as stating, 

8 quote, "Cutting greenhouse gases slows the 

9 planet's heating, and with it the pace of ice 

10 sheet losses." 

11 Right now increasing fossil fuel 

12 emissions are decreasing the Greenland ice 

13 sheet's ability to reflect incoming sun, 

14 increasing the melting and resulting in a self15 perpetuating feedback loop. In addition, forest 

16 fires have increased in severity in Canada, 

17 thereby intensifying the darkening of Greenland's 

18 ice. 

19 Jason Box's website, Dark Snow, reports 

20 that the IPCC has predicted a doubling of forest 

21 fires for every 1.8 degree Fahrenheit increase in 

22 temperature. As scientists, you are well aware 
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1 of the negative synergistic effects that climate 

2 change is already taking on our country and in 

3 our planet. 

4 Close by in Maryland we are experiencing 

5 climate change effects first-hand. I live in 

6 northern Montgomery County and just three of us, 

7 three neighbors, have experienced property damage 

8 and power outages. We have suffered drastic 

9 erosion resulting in giant gullies. One pond had 

10 its wall blow out. We have downed trees 

11 periodically.

12 In addition, in Maryland, we suffered the 

13 health effects of bad air stemming from coal 

14 plant emissions that create plumes across the 

15 state. Asthma in Maryland is at record levels.

16 On a personal note, one of my grandsons, 

17 the older one, the 10 year old, was rushed to the 

18 emergency room twice during the early summer 

19 months this year for breathing difficulties. I 

20 was with him one day when we walked from the 

21 parking lot to the baseball field and he could 

22 not make it from the parking lot to the baseball 
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1 field without constantly coughing, eventually 

2 crying. He couldn't walk anymore. My daughter 

3 and son-in-law took him to the emergency room 

4 that day.

5 There was a second ER visit a couple 

6 weeks later, and this time he went to a 

7 pulmonologist and came home with two inhalers and 

8 allergy medicine. Now, do I know for sure that

9 these symptoms are caused by air pollution? No. 

10 But they occurred on bad air days and I do note 

11 that Maryland's bad air quality, as rated by the 

12 American Lung Association, is very high. 

13 The exceedingly high rates of asthma in 

14 the City of Baltimore attest to the health 

15 affects of breathing bad air as well, and as 

16 other people have stated, those impact 

17 essentially the poor communities.

18 The precautionary principle demands a 

19 response, but we have gone beyond that. We are 

20 no longer predicting bad results of climate 

21 change, we are experiencing them now.

22 A rough paraphrase from Shakespeare's 
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1 Julius Cesar is this statement we've often heard. 

2 "It is not in the stars to hold our destiny, but 

3 in ourselves." 

4 Let us take these steps now. It is in 

5 our hands and yours. Thank you, EPA, for taking 

6 the steps to develop carbon rules to protect all 

7 of us and our planet. Thank you.

8 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 

9 Okay. Next up is Liz Schmitt and it's Poune Rene 

10 Saberi. I hope I pronounced that right. I did? 

11 Oh, thanks. 

12 All right. Start with Liz Schmitt.

13 MS. SCHMITT: Hi. So my name is spelled 

14 L-I-Z S-C-H-M-I-T-T, no D.

15 So good afternoon. My name is Liz 

16 Schmitt and I'm the Creation Care Campaign 

17 Associate for Sojourners, which is a Christian 

18 organization that's been around for more than 40 

19 years articulating the vocal call to social 

20 justice.

21 And I use the words, Creation Care, in my 

22 job title because when I talk to our Christian 
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1 constituents and particularly Evangelicals, about 

2 climate change, the conversation always starts 

3 with God.

4 We're responding to the reality of 

5 climate change, not just because of what the 

6 science says, and not just because we know 

7 ethically that we need to. But first and 

8 foremost because the Word tells us to. The 

9 creation speaks to us in God's steadfast love for 

10 us, and the Bible speaks to us of our first 

11 responsibility, the task God gives to humanity in 

12 Genesis, which is to steward the creation.

13 So I'm here today on behalf of thousands 

14 of people of faith who submitted public comments

15 to the EPA urging for the Clean Power Plan to 

16 come to fruition so that we can finally take 

17 major action as a nation to curb our sinful 

18 climate pollution.

19 And the comment from Sojourners has 3,400 

20 signatures on it, and they're all supporting EPA 

21 in moving forward with the Clean Power Plan. I 

22 can tell you that people of faith care deeply 
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1 about what's happening to the creation, which 

2 includes people. And we know it's long past time 

3 for the U.S. to actively curb our carbon 

4 pollution.

5 I know you're hearing from both sides 

6 about this and from industry that wants you to 

7 just cancel the standards, and from 

8 environmentally conscious people who are 

9 applauding your efforts and maybe even asking you 

10 to go further. And I'm here to voice our 

11 support. But because I can act with so many 

12 Christians across the country and our primary 

13 concern is social justice, I also want to ask for 

14 careful application of the rule.

15 Each state can decide for itself how to 

16 implement the Clean Power Plan and meet its 

17 goals, and the flexibility is, in general, a 

18 really good thing. Because the desirability of 

19 each potential source of energy is weighed based 

20 on its carbon intensity, however, I'd like to 

21 suggest a more comprehensive approach to how you 

22 value each type of energy production.
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1 Truly renewable sources like wind and 

2 solar are a deal because they produce no carbon 

3 emission and rely on abundant natural energy. 

4 Other sources of energy, such as nuclear natural 

5 gas and bio-mass may be lower carbon options, but 

6 they're not as environmentally beneficial. 

7 Our nation uses a lot of energy and 

8 retiring coal plants means we'll need a lot of 

9 resources in production on the grid. But I would 

10 ask EPA to incorporate life cycle costs into how 

11 you incentivize each type of energy production.

12 I've also heard concerns, and I know you 

13 have too, from environmental justice activists, 

14 including ones that we work with, worried about 

15 how poor communities and people of color might 

16 bear a disproportionate burden from more 

17 incinerators, for instance, as they always have 

18 in the past. 

19 And climate change is threatening God's 

20 creation, including people, at a global scale. 

21 So we need to act to slow it's course. But 

22 please be mindful of the tradeoffs. Your duty, 
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1 as an agency, is to protect the environment and 

2 human health. And you cannot ask the poor and 

3 the people of color in the United States to pay 

4 the price for overall carbon emission reduction. 

5 Likewise, the co-benefits of carbon 

6 reduction steps should happen where the costs 

7 happen. Local or state carbon trading schemes, 

8 where also it's happened nearby, are preferable 

9 to national or international schemes where a 

10 plant might continue to burn coal or natural gas 

11 in a poor community in L.A. because a forest in 

12 Michigan has been saved.

13 Climate change and environmental 

14 degradation are not abstract concepts. They're 

15 affecting real people everywhere in this country 

16 and I ask you to do your job in protecting all of 

17 those people, ensuring equal protection for those 

18 who are so often left out of the conversation and 

19 asked to bear the burden.

20 In Jesus's speech, that we call the 

21 Beatitudes, he says, "Blessed are the meek, for 

22 they will inherit the Earth."
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1 And nowhere is this more clearly visible 

2 than in poor and vulnerable communities in the 

3 U.S. and around the world. Last year I led a 

4 tour of 100 Christian community development 

5 workers on a trip on the Louisiana Bayou, and our 

6 guide was this short alligator wresting guy named 

7 Will Lou. He told us about his community in Jean 

8 Lafitte Swamp has seen seven hurricanes and one

9 oil spill in eight years. And for him this was 

10 just part of life, although climate change is 

11 making it a more frequent part of life.

12 That community, which sticks together and 

13 rebuilds after each storm gets almost no 

14 attention from the Government. After Katrina, we 

15 saw what happened to the people of New Orleans 

16 and how they were left behind. But people in the 

17 bayou were also left behind. 

18 And when the government built a levy the 

19 community of Jean Lafitte found themselves on the 

20 other side of the levy. They levy was a good 

21 thing, but the government was willing to do so at 

22 the expense of the small town of Jean Lafitte. 
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1 And this is the kind of injustice that we risk 

2 committing when we leave the nuance out of our 

3 policies. 

4 So I urge you to incorporate 

5 environmental justice assessments and life cycle 

6 costs in assigning value to the details of state 

7 implementation plans, and to work with 

8 environmental justice experts to protect 

9 vulnerable people on the front lines of the 

10 problem, and sometimes the solutions of climate 

11 change. Thank you.

12 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you. 

13 Ms. Saberi.

14 DR. SABERI: My first name is spelled P15 O-U-N-E. My last name is S-A-B-E-R-I.

16 There is a Dakota Indian saying that goes 

17 like this, "When you find yourself riding a dead 

18 horse, dismount." 

19 My name is Dr. Poune Saberi and I am a 

20 physician and occupational environmental medicine 

21 and a faculty member at the Hospital at the 

22 University of Pennsylvania. 
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1 I'm here to say, fossil fuels are dead 

2 and we must dismount. The Clean Power Plan is 

3 the key lifesaving move and I want to thank EPA 

4 for their initiative. I want to tell you about a 

5 first encounter with a patient I will never 

6 forget. 

7 It initially started out routine, but 

8 when I asked her if she had any children her eyes 

9 welled up and she began telling me the story of 

10 her 17 year old son destined for college, with a 

11 scholarship, raised as an only child by this 

12 single mother.

13 One day she received a call that he had 

14 an asthma attack and was taken to the emergency 

15 room. This time the asthma attack proved to be 

16 fatal, and she never even had a chance to speak 

17 to him before his heart gave in. 

18 Forty-four percent of all asthma 

19 hospitalizations are for children. I practiced 

20 primary care for 10 years before specializing in 

21 occupational and environmental medicine. I have 

22 seen a wide spectrum of patients hurt by exposure 
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1 to air pollution. Seeing the alarming rapid and 

2 shallow breathing of an infant is not an 

3 experience I would want to voluntarily take part 

4 in. It is heart breaking when the vulnerable 

5 among us are unfairly take the large hit from our 

6 actions. 

7 At the other end of this spectrum are the 

8 workers in the fossil fuel industry. I live in 

9 Morgan, Pennsylvania as a part of methane 

10 development has exposed many of the workers to 

11 volatile organic compounds and radioactive 

12 material. 

13 A 26 year old worker died in Southwestern 

14 PA when a methane gas well exploded. This is why 

15 I'm here today. When industry focuses on profits 

16 over health it is up to us to raise our voices 

17 against these unacceptable sacrifices. 

18 I commend EPA for introducing this rule, 

19 however, this is just the introduction. An 

20 introduction to the promising direction as a 

21 society. We all need to agree to make the 

22 efficiency proposal much more stringent and focus 
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1 on noncombustible -- and to focus on 

2 noncombustibles much more robust. Here are the 

3 strong points of the Clean Power Plan as I see 

4 it.

5 Number one, the co-benefits. That means 

6 when carbon dioxide is reduced many other air 

7 pollutants are also reduced like sulfur dioxide, 

8 nitrous oxides, and mercury. These outdoor air 

9 pollutants are considered carcinogenic, therefore 

10 when there are less of them there's less lung 

11 cancer, less bladder cancer, less memory loss. 

12 Number two, less carbon dioxide means 

13 lower utility bills. That is always good for 

14 everyone's pockets.

15 Lastly, number three, lowering carbon 

16 dioxide equals lowing greenhouse gases in the 

17 atmosphere and addressing the impacts carbon 

18 dioxide has on global heating, less ocean 

19 acidification help fisheries, less extreme 

20 weather patterns will help agriculture and 

21 commerce, and lastly, maybe climate change will 

22 have it's own health benefits by reducing the 
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1 ferocity of floods, tornados, and hurricanes.

2 There are many things in our world we 

3 cannot fix. This one, we can. Here is what I 

4 believe this rule has to be. Number one, 

5 focusing on downstream carbon dioxide emissions 

6 from power plants and ignoring the upstream of 

7 coal and gas production is like a doctor treating 

8 the bruises without acknowledging the domestic 

9 violence happening at home. There is a high risk 

10 of health exposure and environmental hazards at 

11 each step of extraction, production, and 

12 transport. We must consider the entire life 

13 cycle of energy production.

14 Number two, noncombustion sources of 

15 energy production, like solar, wind, and 

16 geothermal, will help the states reach their 

17 carbon dioxide reductions faster and earlier with 

18 less greenhouse gas production. Switching coal 

19 power plants to natural gas or nuclear is like 

20 switching from one addictive drug to another. 

21 The problem has not been addressed. Natural gas 

22 and nuclear are not viable alternatives to coal.
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1 Lastly, number three, noncombustible 

2 energy reduction is a labor intensive economy 

3 increasing in new jobs. The occupational hazards 

4 are minimal and the sun and wind resources are 

5 not siphoned off like a fossil fuel cycles.

6 Conversely coal miners and only gas 

7 workers have some of the most dangerous jobs in 

8 the United States. Switching away from these 

9 jobs to the ones that are much less hazardous,

10 workers and laborers will benefit by staying 

11 healthy as well as continuing to be proud 

12 financial providers for themselves and their 

13 families. 

14 In summary, we must phase out coal, not 

15 transition to natural gas or nuclear, and fully 

16 embrace noncarbon, noncombustible sources of 

17 energy. 

18 I will end by pleading that this 

19 Administration transition from being the world 

20 leader in pollution to being the world leader in 

21 energy solution. Thank you.

22 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 
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1 very much. All right. Next up is Ellen 

2 Ziesenhene. If I pronounced that right and David 

3 Kepley. 

4 All right. Ms. Ziesenhene, want to 

5 start? And you'll need to spell your name.

6 MS. ZIESENHENE: Yeah. Hello. My name 

7 is Ellen Ziesenhene, that's E-L-L-E-N Z-I-E-S-E8 N-H-E-N-E.

9 I am an intern at Environment America and 

10 a student at the University of Georgia. I have 

11 come here today to express my concern for the 

12 future of our environment and society, as well as 

13 to show support for the proposed Clean Power 

14 Plan.

15 Throughout my childhood growing up in 

16 middle Georgia, and now as a Georgia college 

17 student, I have experienced very peculiar weather 

18 patterns, and I have also witnessed the 

19 devastating effects that it can have on a 

20 community that's not prepared for it.

21 From almost unbearable hot summers to 

22 days in the winter reaching almost as high as 85 
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1 degrees Fahrenheit, to this recent winter where 

2 we had the disastrous snowpocoalypse, and had 

3 class canceled for almost two weeks. Who knows 

4 what next year's winter will bring due to climate 

5 change if it continues.

6 As an environmental leader on my school's 

7 campus, I constantly face economic based 

8 opposition, such as the claim that jobs will be 

9 lost, utility prices will increase, and that 

10 other countries will pollute more and advance 

11 more in the production of cheap energy. 

12 These are the claims from climate deniers 

13 that stand against the environmental regulations. 

14 And I always answer back with them, with this 

15 question: How are we to have an economy when we 

16 don't have an Earth to live on? 

17 When the Earth becomes uninhabitable and 

18 children can no longer play outside, or companies 

19 constantly have to deal with sick workers due to 

20 unclean air the economic argument is no longer a 

21 practical one and it's time to put the Earth 

22 first. 
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1 Through the Clean Power Plan the United 

2 States will only have more reason to become on 

3 the front line of renewable energy industry. Why 

4 should we continue to support an industry that 

5 only harms the environment and has an actual time 

6 limit on its availability. It is our job as 

7 young, educated, and strong-willed citizens of 

8 the United States to stand up to climate deniers. 

9 Being a young adult in the United States I have 

10 no excuse for ignorance. I have no excuse to 

11 deny the science of thousands of scientist. I 

12 have no excuse not to embrace this proposed plan 

13 to cut carbon emissions from power plants, and to 

14 stand strong against any opposers.

15 We do not have the power to deny future 

16 generations of a healthy and sustainable planet. 

17 It is time now to make necessary changes so that 

18 the future generations can enjoy the same Earth 

19 that we have now. I am asking the young people 

20 of America to stand with the EPA and support the 

21 Clean Power Plan. We must work to stop climate 

22 change and the pollution of our Earth before it's 
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1 too late. Thank you.

2 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. David Kepley.

3 MR. KEPLEY: My name is David Kepley, D4 A-V-I-D K-E-P-L-E-Y. 

5 Good afternoon. My name again is David 

6 Kepley, I am an elder and deacon at Providence 

7 Presbyterian Church in Fairfax, Virginia, and I 

8 am chair of our church's Earth Care Team.

9 I also lead a group of 10 Presbyterian 

10 churches in the national capitol area that have 

11 earned the right to be called Earth Care 

12 congregations by annually meeting rigorous 

13 environmental standards set by your denomination. 

14 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to 

15 address the Environmental Protection Agency on 

16 this critical issue to our nation's health and 

17 wellbeing.

18 I raise my voice with those around this 

19 country who praise you for having the courage to 

20 propose these regulations on new and existing 

21 power plants. I am hoping that this will be the 

22 first step towards a more comprehensive approach 
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1 in reducing our nation's reliance on fossil 

2 fuels. 

3 I am speaking to you today as a faith 

4 leader in my community, and as the father of two 

5 wonderful young men. In my faith tradition when 

6 we want to understand how we are supposed to 

7 interact appropriately with each other we consult 

8 the Bible.

9 One passage that illustrates much of what 

10 is central to my faith about the creation comes 

11 from the book of Leviticus, where God says, "The 

12 land is mine. With me you are but aliens and 

13 tenants. Throughout the land that you hold you 

14 shall provide for the redemption of the land."

15 These versus allude to several themes 

16 that are foundational to my concept of God's 

17 relationship to the creation and to humankind. 

18 The passage points to humanity's special role in 

19 God's creation. Humankind is an integral part of 

20 creation. 

21 But while God encourages us to draw 

22 sustenance from the land, we are also expected to 
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1 redeem the land. In the Judeo-Christian 

2 tradition this means that God expects humans to 

3 be faithful stewards of the creation, sharing 

4 with God and its maintenance. Failure to do so 

5 will disrupt the delicate balance God has 

6 established, to our peril.

7 The passage also compares us with renters 

8 who cannot just do anything we please with the 

9 land, but must act in accordance with the wishes 

10 of the owner of the land. God. To me, this 

11 means that to be wasteful with the land's bounty, 

12 or to spoil it with substances that are harmful 

13 to people or other life forms, is not just 

14 unproductive, it is in an affront to God. It's 

15 the moral equivalent of writing graffiti on the 

16 Wailing Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, 

17 or the Dome of the Rock.

18 In my view the EPA has identified one of 

19 those areas where we humans have ignored our role 

20 as good stewards of the creation. We know that 

21 coal is a carbon-intensive fossil fuel whose 

22 combustion produces enormous amounts of 
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1 greenhouse gas emissions. While these emissions 

2 will have a significant and inequitable impact on 

3 future generations through global climate change, 

4 they also have a deleterious impact on present 

5 generations through mercury pollution, acid rain, 

6 and the aesthetic destruction of mountaintops and 

7 valleys. 

8 This disproportionately impacts the most 

9 vulnerable members of our society. This leads me 

10 to the second reason that I wanted to address the 

11 EPA this afternoon. I'm a dad. One of my sons 

12 is a baseball player, like one of the other 

13 presenters told you today. And he suffered from 

14 asthma during most of his childhood. He's an 

15 active and energetic child, but always had to 

16 have his puffer with him in case he suffered a 

17 debilitating attack.

18 We know that coal burning power plants 

19 introduce toxins in the air that can trigger 

20 asthmatic reactions among children. My second 

21 son contracted -- was diagnosed with lymphoblast 

22 lymphoma when he was four years old. It's the 
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1 same disease that killed Jackie Kennedy.

2 But after an intensive chemotherapy 

3 regimen he later recovered from that and then he 

4 relapsed nine years later with leukemia. 

5 When I asked the doctors, where did this 

6 come from. The answer I got back is what you 

7 would expect from the doctors, which is, well, we 

8 really don't know just yet. It's some 

9 combination of heredity and environment. Well, 

10 my wife and I do not have any history of blood 

11 related cancers in our family. So what are the 

12 environment things? I don't know. I'm not 

13 laying this at the feet of the coal industry, but 

14 it stands to reason that when we put toxins in 

15 the air bad things can happen to people.

16 So you've heard much from the power 

17 industry about how we cannot afford the EPA's 

18 proposed regulations. If my family is 

19 indication, any indication, and my son's 

20 healthcare costs ran into the hundreds of 

21 thousands of dollars, we are already paying that 

22 price through high healthcare costs. Thank you 
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1 very much for your kind attention.

2 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you both very much.

3 MS. ZIESENHENE: Thank you.

4 MR. KEPLEY: Thank you.

5 MR. DEMOCKER: Okay. Next up is Eva 

6 Muszynski and Jose Aguto. Hopefully I pronounced 

7 those correctly.

8 MS. MUSZYNSKI: Close.

9 MR. DEMOCKER: Close? Okay. A lot of 

10 people coming in and out and I just wanted to say 

11 again how much we appreciate your coming in to 

12 give us your views. 

13 MS. MUSZYNSKI: Good afternoon. My name 

14 is Eva Muszynski, E-V-A M-U-S-Z-Y-N-S-K-I. 

15 So like I said, my name is Eva Muszynski 

16 and I'm here today to tell you about how carbon 

17 pollution has affected my life and why I support 

18 the EPA's Clean Power Plan.

19 Growing up in Northern Virginia I spent 

20 time each summer sailing on the Potomac River 

21 just south of the city. I have seen the 

22 transformation of the D.C. skyline from being 
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1 able to see the details of the starch white 

2 capitol building from miles away, to what I now 

3 see every weekend; a hazy outline of what I know 

4 is the capitol, but looks as if it's caught in a 

5 perpetual shadow of darkness. 

6 But the darkness isn't a cloud, but the 

7 carbon pollution that looms overhead from the 

8 hundreds of power plants in this area. Although 

9 I've seen how the carbon pollution can transform 

10 a city skyline, what has struck me the most is 

11 the visible affects on our coral reefs caused by 

12 global warming and thus, carbon emissions, I have 

13 seen in my lifetime.

14 One of my favorite childhood memories was 

15 in a family vacation in the Florida Keys. We 

16 stayed in a small house on the beach with the 

17 coral reef right offshore. Within the first few 

18 days we were there it would take my dad holding 

19 my hand as I would float with a mask on my face 

20 and a snorkel in my mouth for me to feel 

21 comfortable entering this underwater world.

22 By the end of the week I refused to leave 
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1 the water for hours, fascinated with the vibrant 

2 fish that darted too and fro, colorful coral 

3 feeding on the particles and nutrients that 

4 floated by, and the occasional barracuda that 

5 would stare me down. 

6 My love for the ocean flourished on this 

7 trip at the age of eight and has only magnified 

8 since. I am now at the University of Miami 

9 studying marine science and biology, and have the 

10 pleasure of SCUBA diving practically every 

11 weekend.

12 After returning to the same coral reef 

13 this past semester I was devastated to find that 

14 what had been a healthy coral reef is now 

15 bleached, dying, and deserted from the plethora 

16 of life that was previously there. Higher sea 

17 temperatures from global warming have caused 

18 major coral bleaching events on reefs I've been 

19 visiting for years. Some coral are able to 

20 recover, but far too often the coral dies and the 

21 entire ecosystem for which it forms the base 

22 virtually disappears.
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1 From the fish that we catch on the reef 

2 that provide the livelihoods for many coastal 

3 communities, to the plankton that provides 75 

4 percent of the oxygen on Earth, we need these 

5 reefs to sustain life and our economy and cannot 

6 afford to lose them to global warming.

7 My future children will never get to see 

8 the reefs that have already been lost. But I 

9 urge our leaders to support the Clean Power Plan 

10 and these first ever limits on carbon pollution 

11 so that future generations have a chance to see 

12 how incredible the undersea world is before 

13 global warming causes them all to disappear. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Mr. Aguto.

16 MR. AGUTO: Great. Thank you. Thank 

17 you. Thank you for this opportunity to share our 

18 views on EPA's Clean Power Plan. My name is Jose 

19 Aguto, J-O-S-E A-G-U-T-O.

20 I represent the Friend's Committee on 

21 National Legislation, Quaker Lobby and the public 

22 interest.
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1 Nearing our 71st year FCNL is the oldest 

2 peace lobby in the country and is housed in the 

3 first LEED certified building on Capitol Hill. 

4 Grounded in the values of simplicity, peace, 

5 compassion, and equality we are active in our 

6 witness and advocacy for a world which reflects 

7 these values. 

8 We and other Quakers across the country 

9 today offer our testimony because we, like so 

10 many in so many faith traditions, recognize 

11 climate disruption as one of the greatest moral 

12 and practical challenges of our time. We are 

13 deeply concerned about its impacts on vulnerable 

14 communities, ecosystems and economies, and on the 

15 pacific co-existence of humankind.

16 Elite institutions in prominent sectors 

17 across the world also find climate change to be a 

18 grave challenge, including the U.S. military, 

19 NATO, the World Bank, businesses like General 

20 Mills and Coca Cola. As Christine Lagarde, 

21 Managing Director of the International Monetary 

22 Fund said to the global elite last year, "If we 
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1 do not act on climate change, future generations 

2 will be roasted, toasted, fried, and grilled."

3 The leaders of the 141 nations who signed 

4 the climate, the Copenhagen Accord, including 

5 President Obama, recognized that the increase in 

6 global temperatures should be kept below 2 

7 degrees Celsius, and which requires deep cuts in 

8 global greenhouse gas emissions. 

9 To meet this goal and to prevent grave 

10 harm to present and future generations it is well 

11 settled that at least two thirds of the world's 

12 proven fossil fuel reserves must remain in the 

13 ground.

14 This is the clear, measurable, and 

15 daunting challenge of our time, yet the global 

16 community has not yet embraced it. This is why 

17 we are so grateful that the EPA has taken this 

18 monumental step through the Clean Power Plan that 

19 may result in the national and international 

20 solutions to get us through this crisis.

21 At the same time we urge the plan step 

22 more firmly into this larger challenge. Science 
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1 and policy joined with faith in affirming the 

2 dignity of every human person in the care for 

3 creation. For as Pope Francis has said, quite 

4 simply, if we destroy creation it will destroy 

5 us.

6 Viewed through this lens then what are 

7 the social, ecological, economic, and human costs 

8 of the various options EPA presents to the 

9 states? Preferable options examined across their 

10 life cycles would emit little or no greenhouse 

11 gases, would not harm the health of people's 

12 communities and ecosystems, would be cost 

13 effective, and create long-term economic and job 

14 growth. Through this lens we hope the final rule 

15 reflects a different version of options, some of 

16 which I'll highlight now and elaborate in my 

17 written comments.

18 If the world must keep two thirds of the 

19 world's proven fossil fuel reserves in the ground 

20 then we must question the proposed rule's support 

21 for natural gas. Indeed recent studies indicate 

22 that methane pollution may make natural gas just 
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1 as bad for the climate as coal and could 

2 undermine 36 percent of the climate benefits 

3 derived from the plan. 

4 The economic, ecological, and health 

5 costs of nuclear energy from cradle to grave are 

6 too costly. One aspect not addressed in the plan 

7 relates to the extraction of nuclear fuels. Some 

8 tribal nations have paid a great price. 

9 Several years ago I traveled into the 

10 heart of Navajo Nation and met with an elder who 

11 pointed to an abandoned mine staining the side of 

12 a mesa near her home. She said the Federal 

13 Government considers this land to be a national 

14 sacrifice area. There are over 1,000 radioactive 

15 waste sites and 520 abandoned uranium mines on 

16 Navajo Nation alone. Is this how we treat our 

17 indigenous peoples? 

18 Long-term solutions can be found in 

19 energy efficiency, renewable energy, and a price 

20 on carbon. Low carbon solutions that create 

21 jobs. Energy efficiency is an ideal option. The 

22 cheapest and greenest unit of energy is the unit 
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1 not used and jobs are created in the process. 

2 The final rule should expressly list the 

3 price on carbon pollution as an option for 

4 states. British Columbia has enacted a carbon 

5 tax which continues to reduce its carbon 

6 emissions while improving its economy. We also 

7 support the testimony of Jalonne White-Newsome of 

8 We Act.

9 In conclusion we applaud EPA's 

10 unprecedented and courageous step to reduce 

11 national greenhouse gas emissions. It is the 

12 first step in meeting our moral and practical 

13 duty to our fellow human beings, our Earth, and 

14 the generations to come. Let us together make it 

15 a great one. Thank you.

16 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you for 

17 your comments, both.

18 MR. AGUTO: Thank you.

19 MR. DEMOCKER: Okay. Next we will hear 

20 from Braden Lagard and Darriel Harris. Are 

21 either or both of them here? Oh, okay. We have 

22 one. Okay. You've got the table to yourself.
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1 MR. HARRIS: Okay.

2 MR. DEMOCKER: So go ahead and identify 

3 yourself and spell your name.

4 MR. HARRIS: Yes. My name is Darriel 

5 Harris, that's D-A-R-R-I-E-L, Harris, H-A-R-R-I6 S.

7 MR. DEMOCKER: Okay.

8 REV. HARRIS: Hello. My name is Reverend 

9 Darriel Harris. I speak to you today as an 

10 ordained Christian minister and on behalf of the 

11 Baltimore Food and Faith Project, an initiative 

12 run out of Johns Hopkins University Center for a 

13 Livable Future. 

14 Our mission is to promote a just, 

15 healthy, and trustworthy food system with 

16 Baltimore Area Faith Communities. Over the past 

17 several years we've partnered with over 70 

18 congregations and interfaced with members from 

19 over 500 Baltimore area congregations across 

20 different faiths and denominations. 

21 Thank you for giving me the opportunity 

22 to testify in support of the new carbon pollution 
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1 standards for existing power plants.

2 Our current trajectory on pollutants and 

3 climate change not only threatens the physical 

4 wellbeing of our constituents and every citizen 

5 and visitors across America in the form of asthma 

6 and other respiratory dangers, but it also poses 

7 a significant threat to our food system. 

8 Our weather patterns are becoming 

9 increasingly severe. Anecdotally in the 

10 beautiful state of Maryland, my birth state and 

11 current residence, tornado watches and warnings 

12 have grown from an uncharacteristic threat to a 

13 familiar alarm. 

14 Across American severe weather 

15 increasingly damages crops, farming machinery, 

16 and animal houses. Rising temperatures in our 

17 oceans, rivers, and bays are negatively impacting 

18 the environment of our fish and other seafood. 

19 It is now undeniable that carbon pollutants 

20 significantly contribute to the danger in which 

21 we find ourselves. And it is not just a danger 

22 to breathe, but a danger to our most basic 
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1 necessities and in common leisurely activity, a 

2 danger to eat.

3 For many in Baltimore city eating is not 

4 a new challenge. Over 20 percent of Baltimore 

5 City residents live in food deserts, an area 

6 where healthy food, fresh produce, is simply not 

7 accessible. Many more suffer from the reality 

8 that healthy foods is not affordable. To help 

9 combat this, religious communities across faiths 

10 and denominations have initiated congregational 

11 gardens that help supplement the growing food gap 

12 in Baltimore area communities. Additionally 

13 several groups and coalitions have joined forces 

14 to glean from area farms, set up local food 

15 markets, and provide education to avail fresh 

16 produce to populations where fresh produce is not 

17 readily available, or affordable.

18 For those who wish to consume food from 

19 just, trustworthy, environmentally friendly 

20 sources, urban and regional food has become 

21 increasingly available at farmer's markets, farm 

22 to table restaurants and community supported 
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1 agriculture, or CSA drives.

2 During this current growing season, many 

3 of these valuable and frankly life-altering 

4 efforts were delayed and hindered by polar 

5 vortexes at the start of the growing season. The 

6 unpredictability of our weather which impacts our 

7 agriculture and the way we eat is a growing 

8 concern that is felt foremost by those who 

9 already find eating a challenge. 

10 The new carbon pollution standards for 

11 existing power plants put forth by the EPA is a 

12 reasonable step to curb a portion of pollutants 

13 that drive climate change. 

14 As I close I am reminded of St. Francis 

15 of Assisi's understanding of neighbor. St. 

16 Francis took seriously the Lord's mandate to love 

17 his neighbor as himself. St. Francis was able to 

18 love the least of those in his area, lepers and 

19 paupers, but he also understood that he had a 

20 kinship with all things on the Earth. After all, 

21 he too came from and would eventually return to 

22 the soil. So Francis began to understand his 
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1 neighbor to be not only other people who equally 

2 relied on the Earth's outputs for life, but Earth 

3 herself. 

4 Consequently he began to honor, respect, 

5 and become a better steward of neighbor Earth 

6 that sustained his life. And it is in the 

7 tradition of St. Francis, the convictions of my 

8 Christian ministry and the goals of Baltimore 

9 Food and Faith Project and its affiliates, that I 

10 thank you for the new standards of existing power 

11 plants and implore you to enforce these standards 

12 and develop additional ways to curb carbon 

13 pollution in America. Thank you.

14 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you very 

15 much for your comments. 

16 Okay. Next up we have Richard Cizik and 

17 Mary Minette. If I have the names wrong, I 

18 apologize. I'm only going by what they have 

19 written down here.

20 All right. We'll start with Richard 

21 Cizik.

22 REV. CIZIK: Good afternoon. My name is 
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1 Richard Cizik. It's spelled C-I-Z-I-K. 

2 I speak here this afternoon in my 

3 capacity as President of the New Evangelical 

4 Partnership for the Common Good as an ordained 

5 Evangelical Presbyterian minister, and as a 

6 representative as a Board Member in fact of the 

7 Virginia Interfaith Power and Light Organization. 

8 And I would like to thank, on behalf of all the 

9 Americans who want to address the devastating 

10 health impacts of industrial carbon pollution.

11 Like an Evangelical, having worked in 

12 this town for 28 years for the National 

13 Association of Evangelicals I'm prone to testify 

14 by personal witness. We Evangelicals do that. 

15 And so I would like to say I speak as a father 

16 and parent of a teenage son who just turned 21. 

17 John is six foot five, a healthy young man. 

18 However, seven, eight years ago he was 

19 diagnosed with serious asthma. And on occasion 

20 before we really understood what was even 

21 happening we heard him cry out, I can't breathe. 

22 It was a frightening experience when your child 
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1 can't breath. 

2 We got him to the doctor's office, he as 

3 diagnosed and prescribed medicine and an inhaler 

4 that he still needs to carry with him. I've 

5 spoken of this before on one occasion and 

6 industry spokesman said, well, so Reverend Cizik 

7 wants to subject upon the rest of the nation 

8 carbon regulation because his son almost died. I 

9 would suggest to you from your own data that by 

10 2030, this carbon rule that we're here about 

11 today will reduce the number of victims. You 

12 could call them, yes, victims, of particle 

13 pollution and ozone by 130, 140, to 150,000 young 

14 kids.

15 So this really is about human life. It's 

16 about protecting young kids and others. It's 

17 also true that while I was intellectually aware 

18 of these things I wasn't personally aware of the 

19 impacts of the environment on my own body until I 

20 was asked by the Environmental Working Group to 

21 be a part of the Human Toxome Project. And so I 

22 became one of the small number of Americans to 
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1 know my own personal body burden called, the 

2 Human Toxome. Toxome. 

3 And so I can report from the book that 

4 was given to me as a result of testing of me that 

5 39 of the 84 industrial compounds that I was 

6 tested for, including pollutants and the like, 

7 are present in my own body. I won't go into all 

8 the metals, methyl mercury and mercury, but they 

9 are significantly high, in fact, 87th percentile. 

10 Only 13 percent of the public has higher 

11 exposure. 

12 So scientists are only beginning to study 

13 the health impacts. 

14 We heard from a reverend, Presbyterian 

15 like myself, who also spoke about these and I 

16 would say in listening to his testimony that, 

17 look, people do die. Young people die. Adults 

18 like myself die. And genetics, timing, and dose 

19 all pay a role in all of this, but what we're 

20 here about today is really, really important. 

21 And this carbon rule for regulating 

22 existing power plants is absolutely essential to 
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1 change the reality that we have in this country. 

2 So I was asked, well, what is this reality? 

3 Well, I checked with the American Lung 

4 Association's State of the Air 2014 report, just 

5 because, well, an editor asked me to. He said, 

6 you talk about this in your own area of Stafford 

7 County. What are they? What are the figures?

8 Well, I found out in the State of 

9 Virginia, for example, those counties and cities 

10 that submitted to testing, over half received 

11 failing grades for levels of ozone. Including 

12 Alexandria, Arlington, Chesterfield, Fairfax, 

13 Hampton, Hanover, Henry, Henrico, Loudoun, 

14 Stafford and Suffolk.

15 And so we know that all over the 

16 Washington Metropolitan region is the eight most 

17 polluted in the country for ozone. So this is 

18 very real. 

19 And so I would conclude by saying more 

20 and more children, the elderly, and others are 

21 going to be impacted, have their lives changed 

22 forever, and maybe even die if you don't act. 
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1 And I believe God is telling me to speak out on 

2 these issues, and as an Evangelical Christian I 

3 believe that we must be stewards of God's 

4 creation. And it seems very clear to me that 

5 this energy point that you have proposed, that 

6 you're hearing comments from us today on, is an 

7 absolutely essential tool for accomplishing the 

8 end. 

9 And so in conclusion I would say, do not 

10 be delayed. Do not be deterred. Do not be 

11 impeded. We will do our part as citizens. We 

12 will work hard to make sure that Congress doesn't 

13 accomplish this either, and others, to kill this 

14 rule because the very lives of Americans are at 

15 stake. Thank you.

16 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Mary Minette.

17 MS. MINETTE: Thank you. My name is Mary 

18 Minette. It's M-A-R-Y M-I-N-E-T-T-E. And I'm 

19 the director for Environmental Education and 

20 Advocacy for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in 

21 America.

22 The ELCA is one of the largest Christian 
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1 denominations in the United States with about 

2 four million members and nearly 10,000 

3 congregations across the 50 states and in the 

4 Caribbean. Lutherans believe that we are called 

5 by God to love and serve our neighbors, 

6 particularly those who live in poverty. And that 

7 we are also called to be stewards of God's 

8 creation. 

9 Reducing hunger and alleviating global 

10 poverty is a key concern for people of faith. 

11 Yet as we look to our future that work faces a 

12 daunting problem. You will need to address 

13 hunger and poverty in an ever more challenging 

14 climate. The ELCA supports ministries that 

15 respond to weather related disasters both in the 

16 U.S. and globally, and we know from those 

17 ministries that extreme weather events have 

18 severe impacts on low-income individuals and 

19 communities. And we are told by scientists that 

20 these extreme events are growing and will 

21 continue to grow worse due to a change in global 

22 climate. 
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1 We know that climate change has many 

2 other health impacts and that those impacts fall 

3 hardest on those who are most vulnerable, 

4 including children and the elderly, and 

5 particularly hard on vulnerable people who live 

6 in poverty. 

7 And we are already seeing the impact that 

8 a changing climate can have on food production 

9 and food security, with the drought in California 

10 as only the most recent example.

11 The ELCA and our congregations, together 

12 with communities of faith around the country are 

13 working to reduce our own energy footprint in 

14 recognition of the growing threat, climate 

15 change. 

16 However, we also know that what each of 

17 us does out of faith and a sense of stewardship 

18 is not enough. To reduce our nation's 

19 significant contribution to global carbon dioxide 

20 emissions, we must act collectively to reduce 

21 emissions from power plants and other major 

22 sources of carbon pollution.
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1 For this reason, we strongly support the 

2 proposed rule to limit carbon emissions from 

3 existing power plants. ELCA Lutherans are 

4 speaking at each of the hearings being held this 

5 week and sending in our comments to the EPA 

6 because we believe that this rule is an important 

7 and necessary step toward taking responsibility 

8 for our role in causing the Earth's climate to 

9 change. We believe that climate change is a 

10 moral issue that calls each of us to speak out of 

11 our faith in support of strong decisive action. 

12 Reducing carbon emissions from power 

13 plants must be a top priority for our country and 

14 the world if we are going to prevent the worst 

15 impacts of climate change. Last winter I heard a 

16 colleague from a development agency in the 

17 Philippines speak about the difficulties her 

18 country would have rebuilding after Typhoon 

19 Haiyan, which had hit just as the UN Climate 

20 Change meeting in Warsaw was beginning.

21 She noted that many communities would 

22 likely never recover from the damage done by the 
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1 storm. She said that she and her country 

2 appreciated the moral, financial and other 

3 support from the U.S. and other parts of the 

4 world that followed the storm. But she also said 

5 that what the Philippines and other nations and 

6 communities facing climate disaster need from the 

7 global community is not just our financial 

8 support and our prayers, but our solidarity. 

9 They need us to stand with them and to work with 

10 them to prevent the worst impacts of climate 

11 change from becoming reality. 

12 Taking strong and decisive action to 

13 reduce power plants emissions is one way to 

14 demonstrate that solidarity that climate impacted 

15 communities need and deserve. 

16 In these hearings you will undoubtedly 

17 hear from people who believe that this rule is 

18 too costly, that it will harm our economy and 

19 eliminate jobs. As the economic analysis that 

20 accompanies the rule amply demonstrates, some 

21 jobs will be lost and some industries will be 

22 impacted by this rule as it begins to take 
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1 effect. However, your research and past evidence 

2 from implementation of similar rules also 

3 indicates that jobs will be created because of 

4 the innovation needed to implement the rule, 

5 particularly in energy efficiency and renewable 

6 energy that will lead us to a more robust and 

7 cleaner economy in the future.

8 The arguments of economic impact and job 

9 loss also ignore the cost of doing nothing, 

10 although allowing global temperatures to continue 

11 their upward trend and Earth's climate to become 

12 less and less predictable. Losses in 

13 productivity, increases in food prices, dwindling 

14 supplies of water all will have steep costs and 

15 huge economic impacts, together with the 

16 continued cost of responding to ever more 

17 frequent weather disasters.

18 We are faced with an important choice. 

19 We can act now and help to prevent future 

20 generations and God's creation from the worst 

21 impacts of climate change. Or we can fail to act 

22 and let our children and the Earth suffer the 
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1 consequences. This rule is a critical step in 

2 the right direction. We look forward to your 

3 finalizing these rules in the coming months and 

4 thank you for your continued efforts to ensure a 

5 just and sustainable world for this generation 

6 and the next.

7 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thanks very 

8 much for your comments. I have one more card 

9 with two people so we'll hear from them and then 

10 we'll take a short break and come back and start 

11 -- well, maybe we'll squeeze in one more after 

12 that. 

13 Sarah Via and Gary Ewart. I hope I’m 

14 pronouncing those correctly.

15 MS. VIA: Hi. My name is Sarah Via, V 

16 like Victor, I-A. And I'm a professor of biology 

17 at the University of Maryland in College Park.

18 You have heard many, many people say 

19 today that the urgency for action on climate

20 change is increasing every day. There are news 

21 articles daily about the consequences of waiting 

22 to take action. And it's way, way past time for 
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1 the U.S. to step up as a role model in the world. 

2 We're trailing now. We should be leading.

3 With action in Congress virtually at a 

4 standstill due to antiscience and scientifically 

5 illiterate elements, representatives, this EPA 

6 rule and the carbon reduction plan is one of the 

7 only avenues we have right now for meaningful 

8 carbon emission reductions. And this makes it 

9 hugely important. You know, it's the one piece 

10 of hope I've seen on the landscape in quite a 

11 while. And with this one rule huge progress, 

12 tangible progress, can be made.

13 Let's be clear about climate change. 

14 Climate change and the role of fossil fuel 

15 combustion in climate change is not an opinion. 

16 It is not a bunch of liberal scientists or 

17 liberal professors like myself making this up. 

18 The data are all in. It is not an opinion. 

19 And this has sadly, sadly escaped many of 

20 our legislators. And I'm thinking perhaps when 

21 we solve the climate change problem we can turn 

22 our attention to increasing the scientific 
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1 literacy of American's in general, and our 

2 elected officials in particular.

3 Coal combustion accounts for 40 percent 

4 of all U.S. emissions. So by controlling carbon 

5 emissions from existing power plants, that's the 

6 definition of low-hanging fruit. You can close 

7 very aged, very inefficient plants and improve 

8 the efficiency of other plants and make a real 

9 difference. So I urge the EPA to resist any 

10 efforts over the next year, I guess, which is the 

11 comment period, to weaken the rule and to fend 

12 off all cries from whatever source they come for 

13 exemptions from the rule.

14 Moreover I applaud the EPA in making the 

15 rule very flexible for states to implement, and I 

16 hope that the EPA will strongly support the 

17 states as they try to implement the rule. 

18 Burning coal is not just about carbon change. In 

19 the half hour I've been in this room I've heard 

20 many impacts of coal burning on health, et 

21 cetera.

22 Burning coal is known to emit acid 
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1 forming gases, which is one of the causes of very 

2 severe respiratory problems like asthma. These 

3 coal-burning power plants also emit large amounts 

4 mercury, lead, arsenic, heavy metals, and about 

5 75 other serious poisons. Many of these 

6 compounds as they're being, you know, emitted out 

7 these smokestacks, adhere to the tiny bits of 

8 soot that are coming out, and they are then 

9 breathed in. The soot is so small that these 

10 poisons can easily get into the bloodstream and 

11 this is what the roots in which sickness and even 

12 death is caused by emissions from these power 

13 plants.

14 As of 2005 -- well, Baltimore has some of 

15 the worst air in the country. And as of 2005 I 

16 did the calculations based on a recent paper out 

17 of MIT. And Baltimore residents could expect 

18 over 800 extra deaths a year in their city, just 

19 from toxic emissions, mostly from the coal-fired 

20 power plants within the community. This is an 

21 incredible burden to place on not just this city 

22 but cities all over the country. 
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1 Other impacts of climate change, of 

2 course, are severe weather, impacts on 

3 agriculture, food security, water security, 

4 political stability. Another downside of coal 

5 burning is not the health impacts, but the coal 

6 burned in this area comes straight from 

7 mountaintop removal mining, which itself is an 

8 environmental disaster.

9 I was preparing a lecture two years ago 

10 about human impacts on ecosystems for my freshman 

11 biology class, and I was talking about 

12 mountaintop removal mining. And I thought, oh, 

13 I'll just look up where my coal comes -- where 

14 the coal they use for my power comes from. And I 

15 was shocked to find that it comes straight from 

16 mountaintop removal mining. And I thought, I 

17 cannot go in front of my class tomorrow and talk 

18 about mountaintop removal mining while my power 

19 is coming from there. So I immediately used my 

20 privilege of switching and I switched to wind 

21 power, which many of us could do.

22 Natural gas, as many people have said so 
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1 far, is not the solution. It substitutes one 

2 health problem for another. So what we need is 

3 really a four-part plan. We need a price on 

4 carbon because people value and reduce the use of 

5 what they have to pay for. We need emission 

6 controls like the one in this plan. We 

7 desperately need to increase efficiency, and we 

8 have the technology to do that. 

9 And while coal advocates may say, oh, 

10 this is going to cost consumers too much, just 

11 consider the health costs that we're paying, and 

12 the fact that in 2011 and 2012 the taxpayers paid 

13 $188 billion for disaster relief. Yet, we can't 

14 come up with $4 billion for advances in 

15 efficiency. There's something wrong with running 

16 a country like that. Okay? Spending the money 

17 after the fact.

18 So in conclusion I just want to say I 

19 strongly support the EPA and these strict 

20 standards for emissions from coal-fired power 

21 plants plans. Thank you.

22 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Mr. Ewart.
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1 MR. EWART: Hello. I'm Gary Ewart. Last 

2 name, E-W-A-R-T. And I'm here for the American 

3 Thoracic Society.

4 American Thoracic Society is a 

5 professional organization with over 14,000 

6 physicians, scientists, and allied healthcare 

7 professionals dedicated to the prevention and 

8 treatment of respiratory disease, critical care 

9 illnesses, and sleep disorder problems. We 

10 pursue our mission through research, education, 

11 and advocacy. 

12 I have to say climate change is real and 

13 it's somewhat frustrating in taking time out of 

14 my five minutes to say that. But the ATS 

15 believes strongly that the available evidence 

16 suggests it is clear and comprehensive that the 

17 climate is changing and the climate is changing 

18 as a result of human emissions. And that is why 

19 the American Thoracic Society strongly supports 

20 EPA and its proposal to limit carbon emissions 

21 from existing power plants. 

22 The ATS recently convened and published a 
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1 report on the respiratory health effects of 

2 climate change. And I have a copy of the report 

3 to leave with you to show the staff. 

4 And there are several major respiratory 

5 health effects that we would argue that are 

6 currently happening or are projected to happen as 

7 a result of climate change. These respiratory 

8 health effects include change in pollen releases 

9 impacting asthma and allergic rhinitis. Heat 

10 waves causing critical care related illnesses, 

11 climate driven air pollution increases 

12 exacerbating asthma and chronic obstructive 

13 pulmonary disease, as well as cardiovascular 

14 disease, desertification increasing particulate 

15 matter exposures, and climate change related to 

16 changes in the food and water security impacting 

17 infectious respiratory disease and malnutrition. 

18 Rather than focus my time today on the 

19 projected -- the current and projected adverse 

20 health effects of climate change, I will talk 

21 about some of the expected co-benefits of 

22 controlling carbon emissions.
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1 First we should note that EPA is entirely 

2 correct and proper in focusing its rule on 

3 existing power plants. It is approximately one 

4 third of all U.S. carbon emissions coming from 

5 power plants. So we think that is appropriate so 

6 as for EPA to suggest regulations. 

7 Second, reducing carbon pollution 

8 emissions from power plants will yield 

9 significant co-benefits. And reductions of the 

10 co-pollutants like ozone and particulate matter. 

11 For the states to meet their EPA proposed initial 

12 limits through improvements in existing power 

13 plants, switching to alternative fuels, energy 

14 conservation, or a combination of all those 

15 methods, the bottom line is reducing production 

16 and carbon emissions as well as other co17 pollutants. Particularly hazards, co-pollutants. 

18 Existing research clearly shows that 

19 reducing hazardous air pollutants like those on 

20 particular matter will improve human health. 

21 These improvements can be measured in reductions 

22 in asthma and COPD exacerbations, reduce cardiac 
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1 events and improvements in low birth weights, 

2 just to name a few.

3 Well, there are numerous studies that are 

4 trying to both project and enumerate the co5 benefits, the human health co-benefits of 

6 reductions in carbon emissions. I want to bring 

7 your attention to one of the more recent reports, 

8 because I'm sure if you know the Harvard 

9 University and Syracuse University reports. I 

10 want to take four key findings from this report.

11 First, that strong carbon emission 

12 standards from existing power plants would 

13 decrease emissions of co-pollutants and 

14 contribute to local and regional air pollution by 

15 approximately 775,000 tons per year, compared to 

16 business as usual comparison in the year 2020.

17 Second, the report shows that by 

18 decreasing emissions of co-pollutants, a strong 

19 carbon pollution standard would improve air 

20 quality and decrease the deposition of harmful 

21 air pollutants. 

22 Third, the report notes that with a 
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1 strong carbon standard, air quality and 

2 deposition recruitments would be widespread and 

3 enjoyed by people living in every state, with the 

4 greatest benefit in those in the Ohio River 

5 Valley Area and the Rocky Mountain Region. 

6 And finally the analysis suggests that 

7 stronger pollution standard in terms of both 

8 stringency and flexibility, the stronger it is 

9 the greater and more widespread the benefits 

10 would be. 

11 So in summary the American Thoracic 

12 Society strongly supports EPA's efforts to 

13 establish policy to limit carbon emissions from 

14 existing power plants. We encourage EPA to move 

15 forward to with this proposal and expect that our 

16 nation will enjoy both near and long-term health 

17 benefits associated with a strong carbon 

18 standard. Thank you.

19 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

20 for your comments. Much appreciated.

21 We have one more card so we'll take one 

22 more and then we'll take a break and let the 
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1 paperwork catch up. So, Tricia Bruckbauer. 

2 MS. BRUCKBAUER: So it's Tricia, T-R-I-C3 I-A, Bruckbauer, B-R-U-C-K-B-A-U-E-R.

4 Hello. I am here on behalf of Creation 

5 Justice Ministries, an ecumenical organization 

6 that represents the creation care policies of 38 

7 Christian denominations. This includes your 

8 mainline Protestant churches, orthodox 

9 communions, some Baptist conventions, a few peace 

10 churches and some others that round out the 38. 

11 As I'm sure you can imagine, we do not 

12 agree on many things. However, we do agree on 

13 the need to be stewards of creation, care for 

14 God's Earth, and seek justice for God's people.

15 One of the biggest moral issues of our 

16 time is climate change and its effects on people 

17 across the globe. One doesn't need to look very 

18 far to understand why we care about climate 

19 change, as the reasoning can be found in our 

20 sacred text. 

21 As Christians, we are called to be 

22 stewards of creation and till the land which 
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1 comes from the first book of the Bible. And in 

2 the gospel of Matthew, Christ calls us to care 

3 for our neighbors, especially the least of these.

4 Climate change disproportionately impacts 

5 the very people that we are called to serve. 

6 Those that have consistently contributed the 

7 least to our changing climate are generally the 

8 ones who suffer the most. Our brothers and 

9 sisters who are least equipped to respond to the 

10 impacts that arise from a changing climate tend 

11 to be low-income communities, communities of 

12 color, the elderly, and children.

13 The impacts that we are already seeing in 

14 our country include sea levels rising, increased 

15 wildfires, drought, and extreme heat waves, and 

16 super storms. It is a known assertion that those 

17 with enough money, both individuals and nations, 

18 will fare all right and be capable of adapting to 

19 some of these changes. But my faith calls me to 

20 care for those without, those that can so easily 

21 be left behind.

22 Because we are called to care for the 
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1 least of these, we would like to ensure that when 

2 this necessary rule is implemented that low3 income consumers do not bear heavy burdens. We 

4 ask that the EPA work with states and utilities 

5 to guarantee that these consumers with limited 

6 means do not experience price increases in 

7 utility bills or compromise reliability.

8 I also want to emphasize another 

9 important reason for implementing this rule. We 

10 view clean air as a gift from God, an advocate 

11 for the right of all God's people to breathe 

12 freely. By curbing emissions from power plants 

13 we will be making great strides toward cleaning 

14 up the air that we breathe. 

15 Similar to the effects being felt by 

16 climate change, those that are most adversely 

17 affected by air pollution tend to be the very 

18 same communities that I stated before. 

19 Responding to the injustices of pollution is 

20 important to people of faith and should be 

21 important to industry leaders as well.

22 This rule begins to address air pollution 
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1 so that diseases and asthma attacks occur less 

2 often and clean air is available to all. I would 

3 also like to state for the record that I am 23 

4 years old. With the exception of a nasty allergy 

5 to cats, I am blessed to be incredibly healthy. 

6 The latest reports have me and those my age 

7 living another 60 plus years on this Earth. 

8 There is an abundance of research, scientific 

9 fact, and knowledge portraying the future in 

10 extremely frightening terms that the majority of 

11 young people know and believe. 

12 It is disheartening that those with the 

13 power to influence change do not always take the 

14 futures of following generations into account. 

15 Those that came before me, my grandparents, great 

16 grandparents, and those before them, helped build 

17 this country as best they knew how. However, we 

18 now know the consequences to the Earth and people 

19 everywhere of creating engineering and operating 

20 in a society based on fossil fuel consumption.

21 I want to be able to tell my 

22 grandchildren that they have beautiful pieces of 
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1 creation to experience because once we knew 

2 better we changed our actions and we did better. 

3 I want to be proud that when we realized there 

4 were better options we worked hard to innovate, 

5 progress, and adapt.

6 The faith community has been working to 

7 address climate change for decades, and 

8 Christians everywhere are voicing their concern 

9 for creation and for our brothers and sisters as 

10 you are hearing this afternoon, in droves. Just 

11 yesterday morning many of us in the D.C. area 

12 gathered outside of this building to pray and ask 

13 for God's grace and guidance for those of you at 

14 EPA and everyone providing comments. 

15 So while this rule alone will not fix our 

16 climate crisis, we view this as a vital step 

17 forward to begin seeking justice for God's planet 

18 and for God's people. Thank you.

19 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you very 

20 much. As we take a break I just want to say 

21 thank you to everyone who has provided testimony. 

22 Thank you for sharing your stories and your 
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1 thoughts on our proposed rule. And if you are 

2 interested, if you haven't spoken and are 

3 interested in speaking, if you just want to sign 

4 up out in the registration desk then we'll create 

5 time for you this afternoon to speak.

6 All right. With that we'll take a break. 

7 (Recess from 2:35 p.m. until 2:54 p.m.)

8 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. We will get 

9 started again. Thank you for hanging in there 

10 with us. And so we are going to commence again 

11 with Angus Crane and Cynthia Adams. If they are 

12 here -- okay. Is Cynthia Adams here -– yes, no?

13 All right. And if you guys would just 

14 remember to please spell your name for the court 

15 reporter.

16 MR. CRANE: Okay. 

17 MR. DEMOCKER: Go ahead.

18 MR. CRANE: My name is Angus Crane. 

19 Angus is A-n-g-u-s and Crane is C-r-a-n-e. And 

20 I’m the Executive Vice-President and General 

21 Counsel for the North American Insulation 

22 Manufacturers’ Association. 
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1 We represent the manufacturers of 

2 fiberglass and insulation products. And we are 

3 here to urge the EPA -– first we want to thank 

4 the EPA for the opportunity to present this 

5 testimony. And we also want to thank EPA for 

6 already recognizing in the proposed rule the 

7 significant value and contribution that energy 

8 efficiency can make to reducing greenhouse gases.

9 We would like to move -- point out that 

10 insulation and the installation of insulation in 

11 buildings has a significant benefit. 

12 First, 40 percent of greenhouse gases are 

13 associated with buildings or the building 

14 environment. Insulation is something that is 

15 very cost effective. It doesn’t cost a lot of 

16 money to insulate. And once you have installed 

17 that insulation, it continues to insulate and 

18 save energy throughout the lifetime of that 

19 building, unlike say energy efficiency appliances 

20 or light bulbs or things of that nature. 

21 Those things are good and beneficial, but 

22 insulation is like no other energy efficiency 
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1 measure because you don’t need to plug it in or 

2 charge it. It just sits there in the walls and 

3 the ceilings and in the attic and it saves 

4 energy. 

5 And in addition to that saving the 

6 energy, there are immediate corresponding 

7 reductions in pollutants. We have and we will be 

8 providing this to the EPA. We previously 

9 provided test results that increased insulation 

10 not only reduces pollutants but also improves 

11 public health, and we will be able to quantify 

12 that. We are having Boston University update the 

13 studies that were done by Harvard ten years ago 

14 that will further substantiate not only energy 

15 savings and pollution reduction, but also public 

16 health benefits. 

17 There are a number of things that we 

18 would like to ask EPA to do. First and foremost 

19 is to recognize early action in implementing 

20 energy efficiency programs. We believe that 

21 there is a long limitation phase here. And that 

22 if you can provide recognition of early action, 
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1 many of the utilities and many of the states 

2 would be able to begin very effective energy 

3 efficiency programs that would provide incentives 

4 and, you know, encourage the use of insulation or 

5 increasing the amount of insulation. So that is 

6 our first request is that you recognize early –-

7 or early action. 

8 The second is in providing any kind of 

9 incentive or any kind of inducement to increase 

10 insulation that you make the quantification and 

11 verification simple, streamlined and easy. 

12 And the most effective way of discouraging the 

13 use of energy efficiency, which again I emphasize 

14 is the most cost effective alternative that is 

15 out there, is to make it complicated. If you 

16 make it complicated and difficult, people will 

17 bypass that as an option.

18 We point out and would ask the EPA to 

19 look at it and consider the fact that on a lot of 

20 the transportation measures, there is a great 

21 deal of leniency in verification.

22 And NAIMA, our organization, will provide 
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1 significant data to EPA that will show that 

2 through modeling data and things of that nature, 

3 that the energy savings can be substantiated and 

4 with existing data. 

5 The last request is that EPA recognizes 

6 that the most effective way of increasing 

7 building energy efficiency is through the 

8 improvement and adoption of energy codes and the 

9 enforcement of energy codes. And so that’s our 

10 third request is that you use the building codes 

11 -– implementation of building codes, enforcement 

12 of building codes -- as a key component of energy 

13 efficiency. 

14 And with that, I thank you for this 

15 opportunity to present this testimony.

16 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Cynthia Adams.

17 MS. ADAMS: Cynthia Adams, C-y-n-t-h-i-a, 

18 A-d-a-m-s.

19 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

20 today on the EPA proposed rule on Carbon 

21 Pollution Emission Guidelines for Existing 

22 Stationary Sources.
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1 My name is Cynthia Adams, and I am 

2 the Chair of the Virginia Energy Efficiency 

3 Counsel. I’m an appointed member of Governor 

4 McAuliffe’s Virginia Energy Counsel and a board 

5 member of Efficiency First, whom I am here today 

6 to represent.

7 Efficiency First is the national business 

8 association for home performance -– with the home 

9 performance industry, whose members are home 

10 performance contractors and companies across the 

11 U.S. with state and local chapters also across 

12 the country. And we work with companies to 

13 retrofit America’s homes and bring them and our 

14 economy into the future. Together, we advocate 

15 for policies that accelerate the growth of the 

16 industry creating huge opportunities for 

17 companies and delivering meaningful value to 

18 homeowners. 

19 First, we want to applaud the 

20 Administration for this important effort to 

21 regulate carbon emissions and for the recognition 

22 in the rule that energy efficiency should be a 
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1 part of the answer to carbon reductions. We 

2 believe home performance meets the “Best System 

3 of Emission Reduction” or BSER test and is a 

4 crucial part of building block number four, 

5 energy efficiency in the proposed rule. In fact, 

6 with more than 113 million residences consuming 

7 22 percent of all U.S. energy, this sector is 

8 critical and a part of any program that targets 

9 emission reductions.

10 We are here today to offer suggestions 

11 for improvement to the draft regulations, and we 

12 will provide further details in our October 16 

13 comments.

14 We urge EPA to consider allowing states 

15 to account for natural gas savings in energy 

16 efficiency programs. We urge EPA to recognize 

17 the unintended consequences that could be 

18 associated with fuel switching and the carbon 

19 that would not be captured and measured, as well 

20 as the inefficiencies in delivery of energy 

21 efficiency services that may come by excluding 

22 efficiency gains from gas and other heating fuels 
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1 under the rule.

2 For example in the residential sector, 

3 current home performance programs that aim to 

4 reduce the overall energy use of a home may

5 instead be encouraged by the rule to switch from 

6 electric heating to natural gas heating, without 

7 ensuring that this effort is coupled with air 

8 ceiling or insulation. Unless the home is well 

9 insulated, the opportunity to achieve potential 

10 savings through the upgrade will be lost.

11 Further, the carbon emitted from the 

12 natural gas heater will not be measured. We 

13 recommend that EPA offer states best practices 

14 for ensuring that energy savings is maximized in 

15 residential programs. And please know that not 

16 all energy efficiency programs are created equal. 

17 Today, rate-payer funded programs are 

18 usually required to pass a cost-effectiveness 

19 test. These tests are based on five tests 

20 originally developed in the 1970s California 

21 standards practice manual. Despite more recent 

22 updates, these tests are often implemented in 
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1 ways that are biased against deeper energy 

2 efficiency investments because they account for 

3 all of the costs, but frequently they ignore many 

4 of the benefits.

5 A new screening effort that Efficiency 

6 First has participated in called the Resource 

7 Value Framework, or RVF, provides a powerful tool 

8 for public utility commissions to ensure that 

9 their cost-effectiveness tests are balanced, 

10 transparent and account for public policy goals.

11 We urge EPA to recommend the use of the 

12 RVF to states that wish to test the 111(d) 

13 compliance programs for cost effectiveness in 

14 order to encourage deeper energy savings 

15 opportunities. 

16 Home performance programs have many 

17 different designs as noted in the proposed rule;

18 for example, each method of calculating savings 

19 deemed, modeled or measured. There are best 

20 practices that we also urge EPA to include in its 

21 guidance to states developing their 

22 implementation plans. 
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1 We will provide further input in our 

2 comments, but as a preliminary statement we urge 

3 the EPA today to consider that there are new 

4 technologies -- smart meters to measure energy 

5 efficiency as a resource, home energy management 

6 devices and others -- emerging every day in the 

7 market place that can assist with program design 

8 and carbon measurement.

9 These technologies are providing crucial 

10 communications between utilities and homeowners. 

11 Standards, protocols and platforms are just being 

12 developed. So we strongly recommend that EPA 

13 recognize this nascent revolution and ensure that 

14 their regulation not close the door to new 

15 technologies and program designs that have 

16 encouraged this kind of innovation. 

17 As EPA develops its rules for evaluation, 

18 measurement and verification, we urge the 

19 consideration of energy consumption data as 

20 provided by utilities. This data, in the form of 

21 both traditional utility bills and more advanced 

22 technologies such as smart devices and home 
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1 energy management systems, can provide valuable 

2 information about energy use and contribute to 

3 accurate quantification of savings. 

4 This information should be recognized and 

5 considered for use in EMV protocols. However 

6 protocols and policies that allow for both data 

7 access and analysis may take time to develop. We 

8 encourage EPA to include the use of this data 

9 specifically in its EMV rules.

10 Finally and importantly, we ask EPA to 

11 consider the non-ratepayer funded solutions to 

12 energy savings in the private sector and 

13 encourage aggregation and the development of a 

14 registry to register and retire emissions that 

15 private contractors and companies can provide 

16 from electricity reduction outside of the utility 

17 programs. 

18 Thank you on behalf of Efficiency First 

19 for the opportunity to testify. While these are 

20 great gains to be made overall, please ensure 

21 that continued attention is paid to the only 

22 element to the rule that directly includes both 
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1 small businesses and average Americans and that 

2 is energy reductions in the residential sector. 

3 Thank you.

4 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

5 very much. I appreciate your comments. 

6 Next up we have Larry Monroe and Anthony 

7 Vance. Larry Monroe and Anthony Vance. And 

8 Mr. Monroe first.

9 MR. MONROE: I’m Larry Monroe, L-a-r-r-y, 

10 M-o-n-r-o-e. 

11 Good afternoon. I am the Chief 

12 Environmental Officer and the Senior Vice13 President of Research and Environmental Affairs 

14 at Southern Company.

15 As the premier energy company serving the 

16 Southeastern United States, Southern Company is 

17 developing the full portfolio of energy 

resources, nuclear, 21st 18 century coals, natural 

19 gas, renewables and energy efficiency, all to 

20 continue providing our 4.4 million customers with 

21 clean, safe, reliable and affordable power.

22 Southern Company subsidiaries include 
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1 four vertically-integrated electric utilities: 

2 Alabama Power, Georgia Power, Gulf Power and 

3 Mississippi Power, as well as Southern Power 

4 which owns generation assets and sells 

5 electricity to the wholesale market.

6 EPA’s clean power plant proposal, while 

7 created in name, goes far beyond the authority 

8 provided to EPA under section 111(d) of the Clean 

9 Air Act. By law, EPA is limited to developing 

10 emission guidelines for existing power plant 

11 sources that are based on the Best System of 

12 Emission Reduction that has been adequately 

13 demonstrated at effective sources. Thus, these 

14 guidelines can only be based on technologies that 

15 can be and have been implemented at individual 

16 sources or inside the fence. 

17 EPA has clearly overstepped congressional 

18 intent by determining that the Best System of 

19 Emission Reduction for individual power plant is 

20 the application of its so called four building 

21 blocks which encompass the entire electric system 

22 including customer demand.
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1 Using aggressive assumptions for each of 

2 its four blocks, EPA has created stringent state 

3 goals which effectively eliminate the flexibility 

4 granted to states under the Clean Air Act to 

5 create standards and compliance programs that 

6 protect our customers.

7 EPA’s first building block incorrectly 

8 assumes that each coal-fired unit can improve and 

9 continuously maintain its efficiency by 

10 6 percent. This assumption is absurd considering 

11 the fact we already operate our units as 

12 efficiently as possible in order to minimize 

13 costs for our customers. 

14 EPA’s second building block, the forced 

15 Redispatch of Natural Gas Combined Cycle 

16 Generation to an annual 70 percent capacity 

17 factor further errs in assuming this redispatch 

18 can be effortlessly and economically achieved. 

19 Even in 2012, with historically low natural gas 

20 prices, combined cycles did not operate at these 

21 levels. 

22 For example, the State of Mississippi’s 
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1 combined cycle fleet averaged only 53 percent 

2 capacity factor. Assuming these units will run 

3 at 70 percent, as EPA does, it would force 

4 uneconomic dispatch which only raises electricity 

5 prices in our struggling economy.

6 EPA’s third building block assumes 

7 unrealistic and unachievable increases in 

8 renewable energy generation and penalizes states 

9 that have low- and zero-emitting generation 

10 projects under construction. 

11 EPA inappropriately applies regional 

12 average renewable energy targets without regard 

13 for state-specific factors. For our southeastern 

14 states, the assumptions would increase renewable 

15 energy generation ranging from 262 percent to 

16 over 400 percent. 

17 Additionally, eight years ago a Southern 

18 Company subsidiary, Georgia Power, and other 

19 Georgia utilities committed to be the nation’s 

20 first to construct new nuclear power units in 

21 almost 30 years. While utilities across the 

22 country will benefit from the path paved with 
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1 Votgle 3 and 4, Southern Company took this step 

2 with specific goals in mind: that the project 

3 would further diversify our fleet and help 

4 prepare us and our customers for upcoming 

5 greenhouse gas requirements. Rather than reward 

6 the State of Georgia, EPA used the zero-carbon 

7 energy source to further penalize the state for 

8 its early actions.

9 Building block four wrongly assumes that 

10 selective and unsustained demand site energy 

11 efficiency results from only three states can be 

12 achieved continuously in every state in the 

13 nation. Demand site energy efficiency programs 

14 have historically been very difficult to 

15 implement, enforce, monitor and verify. Efforts 

16 to reach the assumed levels are sure to raise 

17 costs for our customers, almost half of which 

18 have household incomes of less than 40,000 a 

19 year.

20 In conclusion, through this proposal EPA 

21 seeks to accomplish exactly what the recent UR 

22 versus EPA Supreme Court decision states that it 
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1 cannot do; fundamentally redesign the nation’s 

2 electric system and require reductions in the 

3 economy’s demand for energy from the electric 

4 grid.

5 Southern Company requests that EPA 

6 repropose guidelines that are consistent with the 

7 Clean Air Act and based on adequately 

8 demonstrated cost-effective reductions that can 

9 be implemented at individual affected sources. 

10 Thank you.

11 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Mr. Vance.

12 MR. VANCE: My name is Anthony Vance. 

13 That’s A-n-t-h-o-n-y, and Vance is V, as in 

14 Victor, a-n-c-e. 

15 Good afternoon. I’m the director of the 

16 U.S. Bahai Office of Public Affairs. And thank 

17 you very much for the opportunity to speak at 

18 this hearing.

19 I’m pleased to join the more than two 

20 dozen representatives of faith communities and 

21 many others that have come here over these two 

22 days to speak in strong support of EPA’s efforts 
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1 to set carbon pollution standards for existing 

2 power plants.

3 The proposed standards when implemented 

4 promise to cut heat-trapping carbon emissions 

5 from U.S. power plants by 30 percent by 2030. 

6 They are an essential step towards reducing 

7 pollution from our largest source of emissions.

8 The standards will help to stimulate 

9 improved energy efficiency and growth in 

10 renewable energy and lead us toward a clean 

11 energy future. 

12 As you know too well, carbon pollution 

13 triggers asthma attacks and respiratory disease, 

14 worsens air quality and contributes to more 

15 frequent, destructive, costly and deadly extreme 

16 weather events. And yet to date, carbon 

17 emissions have not been regulated. It’s time for 

18 a change.

19 As a parent, I have personal reasons to 

20 support these standards. Several years ago my 

21 own daughter at the age of eight had her first 

22 asthma attack. It was of course frightening to 
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1 see her struggle, unable to breathe. 

2 Fortunately, we were able to rush her to a nearby 

3 hospital where she was treated and released. But 

4 as any parent can tell you, that kind of 

5 experience makes a lasting impression. No one’s 

6 child should have to needlessly suffer or have 

7 her life endangered as a result of unrestrained 

8 carbon pollution.

9 Now, while the technical aspects of 

10 reducing our emissions are manifold, there is 

11 deep moral -- there is a deep moral dimension to 

12 the issue that is understood and felt by 

13 individuals and institutions across the faith 

14 spectrum. Can we really continue to emit 

15 unlimited amounts of carbon into the atmosphere 

16 knowing the harmful impact it will have on 

17 current and future generations, as well as on all 

18 life on the planet?

19 This question becomes even more poignant 

20 when we realize that those being impacted first 

21 and most severely have had little or nothing to 

22 do with creating the problem. 
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1 We, in the Bahai community, are guided by 

2 a firm belief in the principle of the oneness of 

3 humankind. This spiritual principle has profound 

4 implications for policy at many levels. It 

5 guides us to seek solutions that are equitable 

6 and just, treating all people as members of one 

7 human family.

8 I believe that EPA’s proposed carbon 

9 standards, if implemented, would be one way of 

10 honoring and reflecting an awareness of this 

11 central principle. 

12 The American Bahai community for the last 

13 several years has taken action to reduce its 

14 carbon emissions, both nationally and globally. 

15 We removed an old heating and air conditioning 

16 system and replaced it with a high-efficiency 

17 system in our continental House of Worship in 

18 Wilmette, Illinois, where we are also building a 

19 LEED-certified visitors center. 

20 Bahai’s in 114 local communities and 

21 43 states were among these 1700 diverse faith 

22 organizations that took part in Interfaith Power 
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1 and Lights national Preach-in on climate change 

2 this last February.

3 These efforts and others like them help 

4 to raise awareness of the climate issue and 

5 emphasize the important part that each of us can 

6 play in seeking solutions. But such actions 

7 alone will not be enough. We need strong 

8 national policies that will propel us towards a 

9 clean energy future. 

10 The EPA’s proposed carbon standards will 

11 help in this regard. As evidenced in the recent 

12 U.S. National Climate Assessment, the impacts of 

13 carbon pollution are already being felt across 

14 all regions and sectors of the U.S. economy, and 

15 the projected impacts from doing nothing about 

16 our emissions are severe indeed.

17 In truth, these carbon standards are long 

18 overdue and, particularly in the absence of a 

19 more comprehensive national climate policy, they 

20 are an essential step in the right direction. 

21 The approaching Climate Summit scheduled 

22 at the United Nations in September is seeking 
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1 commitments by all nations to reduce their 

2 emissions. 

3 The climate challenge can only be solved 

4 through international cooperation and national 

5 leadership. The United States has an important 

6 role to play in inspiring the world to take 

7 cooperative action. The Administration’s 

8 proposed carbon standards demonstrate a 

9 seriousness of intent in this direction.

10 With many symptoms of a changing climate 

11 at our door and the many health impacts of carbon 

12 pollution quite evident, we must act with great 

13 conviction and hasten to reduce our emissions.

14 I thank the EPA very much for its efforts 

15 to do just that through its proposed carbon 

16 pollution standards. 

17 Thank you very much.

18 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you very 

19 much. 

20 MR. VANCE: All right. Thank you very 

21 much.

22 MR. DEMOCKER: I’m sorry. We had the red 
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1 light on the whole time for you. We forgot to 

2 restart the clock. 

3 Next up, we have Sarah Saylor and Liz Van 

4 Susteren. Liz or Lise -– Sarah Saylor and Liz 

5 Van Susteren. Come on up to the table. 

6 All right. We will start with Sarah 

7 Saylor.

8 MS. SAYLOR: Hello. Thank you for the 

9 opportunity to share my testimony with you today 

10 for the Clean Power Plan. I am in favor of the 

11 plan. I’m here as a private citizen and my 

12 remarks express my own views. I work for a 

13 Federal Environmental Organization, but I’m here 

14 in my capacity as a private citizen. 

15 I attended the listening sessions that 

16 EPA held in November prior to making this rule 

17 making, and I did some listening of my own. 

18 Afterward, I wrote a blog post with 55 reasons 

19 EPA should move forward with the rule. Today to 

20 prove just how universal those reasons are, I 

21 share the first ten along with my rationale for 

22 supporting them as well. 
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1 EPA must protect our children and future 

2 generations. As a mother, I am responsible for 

3 the well-being of my child. Her name is Agnes. 

4 I know her life will be worse by climate change 

5 if we do not do what is required to abate it. 

6 Instead of discounting the lives of those who 

7 will come after us, we must let their future 

8 guide us.

9 EPA must protect the hungry and the 

10 homeless. As a Christian, I must look out for 

11 those who are considered the least among us, 

12 those who are already disadvantaged and those who 

13 are most impacted by the climate change globally 

14 and here in the United States.

15 EPA must make the U.S. a good global 

16 neighbor. As a former Girl Scout, I learned to 

17 leave my campsite better than I found it for the 

18 next group of scouts that came along. Being a 

19 good global neighbor is no different to me. 

20 EPA must save the honeybees. As someone 

21 who eats honey, I have a stake in protecting the 

22 bees that make it. They are already under 
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1 assault on top of the impact that climate change 

2 is having on them. 

3 EPA must protect plant life. As someone 

4 with a liberal arts degree in plant biology, I 

5 advocate for the ecosystems that support life as 

6 we know it, ecosystems put at risk by climate 

7 change and other pressures. 

8 EPA must relieve those with asthma and 

9 other lung diseases as we have heard from several 

10 parents today. Those will only become worse with 

11 rising temperatures. As a human being, I have a 

12 responsibility to look out for those most at risk 

13 from climate change as well as other pollutants: 

14 our children, our seniors, communities of color 

15 and those who are poor.

16 EPA must make the moral and ethical 

17 choice. As someone who represents the public 

18 interest group, I know our nation relies upon the 

19 rule of law and the law requires action for a 

20 livable climate of breathable air, clean water 

21 and other basic human necessities entrusted to 

22 EPA.
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1 EPA must help us pay our debt to coal 

2 miners and coal mining communities. As a cancer 

3 survivor, I can appreciate the sacrifices these 

4 individuals have made for us all. What better 

5 tribute to them than to help them to transition 

6 into jobs where their lives and the lives of 

7 their families are no longer at risk.

8 EPA must save mountain tops. As a 

9 singer, I often sing about the beauty and 

10 grandeur of mountains, of love that will last 

11 “until the mountains fall into the sea.” Never 

12 did I imagine that human beings and not the slow 

13 passage of time would be hastening their demise. 

14 Climate change is among the reasons we must 

15 arrest this and other forms of coal mining.

16 EPA must reduce coal-related illnesses. 

17 As an environmentalist, I know that climate 

18 change itself is a coal-related illness and 

19 fossil-fuel and methane-related illness. 

20 EPA must make deeper reductions in 

21 emissions and sooner. Do better than the 35 to 

22 40 percent reduction in total U.S. emissions by 
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1 2020 to do what the science demands. 

2 We cannot delay our response to climate 

3 change and neither can we delay justice for those 

4 who live at the mercy of polluters of any kind.

5 Like so many Americans, I believed that 

6 having laws like the Clean Air Act on the books 

7 were sufficient for providing a healthy 

8 environment. I no longer take it for granted. 

9 I urge EPA to do what many in our nation 

10 believe you already have done and to set the 

11 strongest carbon pollution standards possible for 

12 fossil fuel generated power plants, the strongest 

13 that the law will allow, and don’t stop there. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VAN SUSTEREN: Lise Van Susteren. 

17 I’m on the advisory board of the Center of Health 

18 and Global Environment at the Harvard School of 

19 Public Health and a member of the board of the 

20 National Wildlife Federation.

21 You have been listening for hours now 

22 about the impacts of global warming: the 
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1 scorching heat, the biblical floods, the fires, 

2 the droughts, mass extinctions, acidifying oceans 

3 and rising sea levels. You have heard about the 

4 impacts of these dreadful conditions and extreme 

5 weather events will have on our physical health 

6 from direct effects and from the spread of 

7 disease, and still you haven’t heard it all.

8 I’m a doctor, a psychiatrist. What will 

9 the planetary conditions do to us 

10 psychologically? The impacts of climate change 

11 are a breeding ground for physcopathology. We 

12 are not potted plants out there getting drowned, 

13 burned up, flooded and starved or watching it 

14 happen to others. We are being grievously 

15 damaged emotionally.

16 Our mental health determines how we do 

17 our jobs, take care of our families, and function 

18 in our communities. This is the backbone of our 

19 nation. Already people at the center of extreme 

20 weather events suffer from depression, anxieties, 

21 phobias about storms and post-traumatic stress 

22 disorder, deadening themselves sometimes with 
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1 substance abuse and an additional toll on 

2 families and increase in domestic violence 

3 including child abuse. And in the grip of 

4 unrelenting thoughts about future disasters we 

5 are seeing the rise of the new and very painful 

6 condition, pre-traumatic stress disorder and it 

7 is spreading.

8 Whether we know it or not, whether we

9 accept it or not, this is a nation already 

10 burdened by anxiety about climate change. And we 

11 will be in a growing state of fear. Diminished 

12 productivity, distrust of each other, simmering 

13 warfare between haves and have-nots, callousness 

14 in our response to suffering and alienated 

15 citizenry, these are the charges that will come 

16 and plague man.

17 Every physical illness caused by climate 

18 change -- you have heard the names -- is 

19 accompanied by the pain of being sick. Though 

20 these psychological impacts aren’t counted 

21 either, when we tally up the damage brought by 

22 climate change, there they are. 
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1 Studies show that polluted air forming 

2 more quickly at higher temperatures causes 

3 inflammation of brain tissue. Inflamed brain 

4 tissue is associated with higher rates of 

5 depression and dementia. Arising violence comes 

6 with every standard deviation in temperature –-

7 our assaults, murders and suicides. We are not 

8 seeing, we are not counting, and we are not 

9 prepared for what is being wrought.

10 Climate change will reach every corner 

11 and every sector of our lives, and everyone will 

12 throw off psychological challenges. Injury that 

13 could have been avoided is much harder to get 

14 over than harm that comes from something that 

15 happened as a true accident.

16 How will future generations cope when 

17 they know we could have taken action but chose -–

18 chose what? 

19 The mental health community is not 

20 prepared to handle the large scaled psychological 

21 impacts of climate change. Where will be safe? 

22 How will we look in the eyes of the world?
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1 Jihadists are already using global 

2 warming as a rallying cry against us. As a 

3 former CIA profiler, I don’t have to imagine how 

4 quickly conditions can change. I fear gravely 

5 for our democratic way of life. In times of 

6 peril and scarcity, people turn to what they 

7 perceive as strong leaders to protect them.

8 People are willing to give up their freedoms in 

9 exchange for perceived security. Heaven help us 

10 from the tyrants who may be unleashed upon us. 

11 Will we act in time?

12 We implore you to consider the cost of 

inaction, to lead by example deep into this 11th 13

14 hour to work with all of the fiery passion the 

15 situation demands to get this Clean Power Plant 

16 passed with the greatest dispatch. 

17 Thank you.

18 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you both very much. 

19 Before you leave the table, I forgot to ask. For 

20 our court reporter, could you both spell your 

21 names. Thank you, sorry.

22 MS. SAYLOR: Sarah with an H, Saylor, S 
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1 like Sam, a-y-l-o-r –- Saylor. Sarah also with 

2 an S-a-r-a-h, Sarah Saylor.

3 MS. VAN SUSTEREN: This is going to be 

4 even harder. It’s Lise, L-i-s-e, Van, V-a-n, 

5 Susteren, S-u-s-t-e-r-e-n. 

6 THE REPORTER: And that’s two –-

7 MS. VAN SUSTEREN: Correct. Thank you.

8 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much.

9 MS. SAYLOR: Who is collecting written?

10 MR. DEMOCKER: Yes, they are collecting 

11 written comments out at the desk. Thank you. 

12 All right. Next up we have Maylin 

13 Moench, M-o-e-n-c-h is what I have on the card. 

14 And Jessica Eckdish, E-c-k-d-i-s-h. So hopefully 

15 you’ll correct those if we have them wrong. 

16 All right. Maylin Moench, you’re up 

17 first. 

18 MR. MOENCH: My name is Maylin Moench and 

19 that’s spelled M-a-y-l-i-n, M-o-e-n-c-h. I have 

20 comments to deliver on behalf of Utah Physicians 

21 for a Healthy Environment on the EPA’s proposed 

22 Clean Power Program.
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1 Utah Physicians for a Healthy Environment 

2 is a group of nearly three hundred professionals 

3 in medical and related sciences. I advise the 

4 group of matters of law and economics. 

5 Many of the illnesses that our physicians 

6 treat are either caused by or made worse by air 

7 pollution. We recognize that air pollution and 

8 climate change are intimately related. 

9 We therefore offer our expertise to 

10 inform the debate about how society should deal 

11 with these hazards to human health. Failing to 

12 halt the buildup of greenhouse gases means that 

13 we will eventually strip the rangelands of the 

14 Great Basin of much of their vegetation. This 

15 effect will be magnified if the Southern Nevada 

16 Water Authority proceeds with its plans to drain 

17 the aquifers of the already parched lands of 

18 central Nevada and western Utah to supply 

19 additional water to Las Vegas.

20 If climate change is unabated and these 

21 aquifers are drained, winds generated by passing 

22 cold fronts could release millions of tons of 
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1 unanchored desert soils to coat Utah’s heavily 

2 populated Wasatch Front.

3 Great Basin soils are contaminated with 

4 unusually dangerous toxins. These include a 

5 fibrous material called erionite that is hundreds 

6 of times more toxic than asbestos, radioactive 

7 waste from decades of nuclear testing and mercury 

8 from gold mining. 

9 Increased heat, drought and fire 

10 associated with climate warming is expected to 

11 remove much of the vegetation that now holds 

12 those soils in place. By mid-century, increased 

13 exposure to ozone, smoke, dust and airborne 

14 toxins due to local climate warming is expected 

15 to substantially increase –- substantially 

16 increase rates of respiratory, cardiovascular 

17 disease, cancer, genetic damage and premature 

18 death. 

19 It is estimated that by mid-century, 

20 40 percent of Utahns will be too young, too old 

21 or too sick to withstand the effects of the 

22 increased air pollution to which they will be 
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1 exposed.

2 If the public health is to be protected, 

3 those who make energy policies must make 

4 decisions that fully reflect the risks of 

5 continuing to rely on carbon to meet our power 

6 needs. 

7 A recent Harvard study estimated that the 

8 social cause to burning coal in the United States 

9 each year at between one-third and one-half 

10 trillion dollars. If these costs were included 

11 in the price of coal, the price would double or 

12 triple. The price of coal-generated electricity 

13 would increase from nine to 27 cents per kilowatt 

14 hour. Since the average price of electricity is 

15 about 11 cents per kilowatt hour, fully 

16 accounting for the cost of coal-generated power 

17 would double or triple its price per kilowatt 

18 hour relative to the price of carbon-free sources 

19 such as wind or solar.

20 While the cost of carbon generated power 

21 is rising, the cost of distributed solar and wind 

22 power is falling so fast they will be about one-
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1 third less than the cost of carbon power by 2020. 

2 By then, economic storage technologies for 

3 distributed power are expected to be widely 

4 available. These two trends give distributed wind 

5 and solar competitive advantage over coal that 

6 will only grow thereafter. 

7 As the cost of centralized carbon8 generated power rises and the market for it 

9 contracts, utilities will have to raise rates to 

10 cover the fixed costs of obsolete plants. It was 

11 at the recent NARUC convention where state and 

12 public -– I was at the recent NARUC convention 

13 where state public service commissions were 

14 nearly in a panic contemplating the implications 

15 of this downward spiral. 

16 Our recent participation in state-level 

17 electric –- utility rate proceedings has made us 

18 realize that the industry will vigorously resist 

19 the EPA’s carbon reduction targets unless the 

20 incentive structure of the industry is reformed 

21 at the state level.

22 For example, utilities will have to be 
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1 allowed higher rates of return on their 

2 investments in distributed carbon-free power than 

3 on their investments in black power. They might 

4 also need to be allowed to collect a bounty on 

5 each distributed green system that they connect 

6 to the grid, or to be allowed to keep a 

7 percentage of the savings for each kilowatt hour 

8 that is avoided by their end-user efficiency 

9 programs. 

10 Such reforms to the current incentive 

11 structure are essential. If electric utilities 

12 are to be willingly –- are to willingly 

13 participate in, rather than fight the EPA’s 

14 proposed Clean Power Program. 

15 We urge the EPA, the Department of Energy 

16 and FERC to jointly develop a model state of 

17 electric utility code that incorporates such 

18 incentives to spur the needed reforms. 

19 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. 

20 Jessica Eckdish, if you could spell your 

21 name for the record.

22 MS. ECKDISH: Sure. Hi, my name is 
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1 Jessica, J-e-s-s-i-c-a, Eckdish, E-c-k-d-i-s-h. 

2 And I am speaking today as a representative of 

3 the Sierra Club as well as a private citizen. 

4 And I thank you for the opportunity to speak 

5 today and express support for the Clean Power 

6 Plan and to discuss what I consider to be the 

7 biggest challenge of our time, the urgent need 

8 for action on climate change.

9 We are already seeing the impacts of 

10 climate change across the country and the world 

11 today. My home state of California has entered 

12 its third year of drought. According to the 

13 National Climate Assessment, climate change poses 

14 challenges for an already parched Southwest that 

15 is expected to get hotter and drier. 

16 Increased warming and drought conditions 

17 also pose challenges for natural hazards like 

18 wild fire. California experienced the third19 largest fire in its history this past year, the 

20 Rim fire. I visited Lake Tahoe last August and 

21 drove up to Barker Pass to go hiking, but had to 

22 turn the car around because the air was so smoky 
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1 it was too hard to breathe. The visibility was 

2 so bad, in fact, you couldn’t see across the 

3 lake.

4 The rapid spread of the Rim fire is 

5 attributed in part to the widespread heatwaves 

6 and drought conditions in the area. Numerous 

7 fire models project more wildfire as climate 

8 change continues. 

9 Sea level rise is also projected to 

10 increase as the planet continues to warm. In the 

11 last one hundred years, sea level has risen along 

12 the California coast by about six to eight 

13 inches. In the last decade, high tides on top of 

14 this sea level rise have damaged infrastructure 

15 like the inundation of Highway 101 near San 

16 Francisco where I grew up.

17 As our waters warm and glaciers melt, 

18 scientists are now predicting that sea level rise 

19 could increase one to four feet by 2100. Nearly 

20 five million people in the U.S. live within four 

21 feet of the local high tide level.

22 **** Impacts like these and others are being 
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1 seen across the country and around the world. 

2 The good news is that we know what to do. We 

3 know who and what is to blame for these changes. 

4 The latest report from the IPCC states with 

5 95 percent certainty that humans are responsible 

6 for the warming of the last 50 years. And the 

7 strong consensus in the scientific community 

8 attributes a large part of this impact to power 

9 plants that dump greenhouse gases into the 

10 atmosphere every year -– every day, excuse me.

11 Fossil-fuel power plants are the single 

12 largest source of climate pollution in the United 

13 States and currently do not have to meet any 

14 national carbon limits. They have been free to 

15 pollute our air and water, poison nearby 

16 communities and pose a catastrophic threat to our 

17 climate. 

18 Thankfully, the EPA has proposed the 

19 Clean Power Plan to curb this dangerous carbon 

20 pollution from existing power plants for the 

21 first time. By cleaning up these plants through 

22 this plan, we will begin to clean up our air, 
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1 reduce pollution related illness and curb the 

2 worse effects of climate disruption. 

3 I thank the EPA for proposing this 

4 standard and want to acknowledge an area where it 

5 can be strengthened.

6 We can transition from dirty to clean 

7 energy much faster than predicted in this plan. 

8 We should work towards a larger emission 

9 reduction goal of 35 to 40 percent reductions 

10 below 2005 levels in 2020.

11 Thank you for this opportunity to 

12 testify. I urge the EPA to swiftly finalize a 

13 strong and just standard for existing power 

14 plants that protects our health and our planet. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

17 very much. 

18 Next up we have Barbara Schlachter and 

19 Rianna Eckel.

20 Thank you. We will start with Barbara 

21 Schlachter. And if you could, spell your name 

22 for the court reporter.
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1 MS. SCHLACHTER: Yes. 

2 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you.

3 MS. SCHLACHTER: B-a-r-b-a-r-a, 

4 S-c-h-l-a-c-h-t-e-r. 

5 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. The floor is 

6 yours.

7 MS. SCHLACHTER: I am the Reverend Dr. 

8 Barbara Schlachter, an Episcopal priest from 

9 Iowa. And I am pleased to be here to be able to 

10 speak in support of the Clean Power Plan. 

11 Iowa has experienced the effects of 

12 climate change dramatically in the last six years 

13 starting with the floods of 2008 and continuing 

14 with alternating drought and flood. This has 

15 wreaked havoc on agriculture in many parts of our 

16 state. When I left Iowa to come here to testify, 

17 we still had areas of Iowa City inaccessible 

18 because of flood waters that peaked over a month 

19 ago.

20 I speak as an Episcopal priest and also a 

21 founder of 100 Grannies for a Livable Future. We 

22 are a group of older women who are concerned 
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1 about the kind of world our grandchildren, indeed 

2 everyone’s children and grandchildren, will live 

3 in. We are over one hundred strong. We refer to 

4 ourselves as “fossils for a fossil fuel free 

5 future.” And we have a funny picture of a group 

6 of us, like aging Rockettes, getting off of our 

7 rocking chairs and getting out and active about 

8 the issue of global warming.

9 At our meeting this past week, we shared 

10 what places we loved that were already being 

11 impacted by climate change. I spoke about what 

12 is happening to my beloved beach on Lake Eerie 

13 where my family has lived for over a hundred 

14 years. And yet my grandchildren may not be able 

15 to swim there because of algal bloom, runoff and 

16 erosion exacerbated by climate change.

17 One woman spoke with visiting her 

18 children and grandchildren in Colorado where the 

19 pine beetles have killed trees because it wasn’t 

20 cold enough to kill them, leaving the trees as 

21 tinder for forest fires and threatening her 

22 family. 
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1 Another woman spoke of growing up in Iowa 

2 City and riding her bike in City Park. She is 

3 still doing it, but the park is officially closed 

4 because of flooding.

5 Also this past week, during the Johnson 

6 County Fair, many of the Grannies braved the heat 

7 and took a shift at a booth to talk to people 

8 about the reality and danger of the climate 

9 crisis and what they can do as ordinary citizens. 

10 While we have pledged to live more simply with 

11 less impact on the earth, we know that it has to 

12 be a larger, corporate business and government 

13 solution.

14 The Episcopal Church passed a resolution 

15 in 2009 urging President Obama and Congressional 

16 leaders to commit the U.S. to a course of action 

17 to lower the output of atmospheric carbon by 

18 25 percent by 2020 and by 80 percent by 2050. 

19 This may be even more ambitious than the 

20 Clean Power Plan and may be in the camp of those 

21 who say that the plan doesn’t go far enough soon 

22 enough. Yet the Clean Power Plan is a first 
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1 step, an extremely important one. 

2 As one of the Grannies who teaches 

3 biology at a nearby college reminded me, 

4 “regulation of air and water pollutions with the 

5 EPA is the only policy that has a successful 

6 track record.” Others at this hearing can speak 

7 from a scientific perspective on why it is 

8 necessary to reduce carbon emissions so that the 

9 earth’s temperature does not rise more than two 

10 degrees Celsius. 

11 I speak from a moral perspective that 

12 comes from being an Episcopal priest from the 

13 earliest days that women were ordained. I have 

14 been a student of scripture, history, human 

15 nature and above all person of prayer. Most 

16 recently I have become a student of climate 

17 justice.

18 I have concluded that the climate crisis 

19 is the defining moral issue of our time and is 

20 the scientific reality that exacerbates all 

21 social and health problems and aggravates many of 

22 the conflict zones around the world.
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1 It’s the poor that suffer the most. 

2 whether it’s poor nations or poor people. As a 

3 person of Biblical Faith, I believe we are 

4 entrusted with the care of the earth and are 

5 co-creators for the ultimate source and destiny 

6 that many of us call God. How can we claim the 

7 right to deny a stable climate, a life-giving 

8 earth to future generations? 

9 Now that we know the consequences of our 

10 fossil-fuel addiction and we know ways to 

11 ameliorate and change our energy sources, how can 

12 we refuse to do so? How can we deny those who 

13 come after, even if it is inconvenient and will 

14 have economically expensive in the short term? 

15 As a person of Biblical Faith, I believe 

16 not only in looking at tough reality and harder 

17 questions directly. I also believe there are 

18 reasons for hope. We humans are ingenious. We 

19 have created the mess we are in, and we are 

20 resourceful. We can do amazing things when we 

21 have to like mobilize a country overnight to 

22 fight a world war. And deep down, we have caring 
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1 hearts that, when given the choice between life 

2 and death for millions, we choose life. 

3 By adopting the Clean Power Plan, our 

4 nation is saying yes to life, yes to the care of 

5 creation, its creatures and all of the Earth’s 

6 people. 

7 Thank you.

8 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 

9 Rianna Eckel.

10 MS. ECKEL: My name is Rianna Eckel, 

11 that’s spelled R-i-a-n-n-a. And the last name is 

12 E-c-k-e-l. 

13 So my name is Rianna Eckel and I am a 

14 rising senior at American University. And I’m 

15 here today to show my support for the EPA’s Clean 

16 Power Plan and urge it to be finalized.

17 I was born and raised outside of Boston, 

18 one of the cities that will be most impacted by 

19 climate change. 

20 Coastal regions around the world are 

21 vulnerable to sea level rise due to increasing 

22 ocean temperatures. Yet the seas along the east 
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1 coast of the United States from North Carolina 

2 through New England are rising three to four 

3 times higher than the global average.

4 The place where I was raised and where my 

5 curiosity and passion for the environment was 

6 cultivated, is under threat as sea level rise 

7 could encroach upon the city within my lifetime.

8 In Washington, D.C., where I have spent 

9 the last three years, the impacts of climate 

10 change will also be felt. The Chesapeake Bay 

11 will rise, impacting the water levels of the 

12 tidal portions of the Potomac and Anacostia 

13 rivers and the communities along their banks. 

14 There will be more extreme precipitation 

15 events overflowing D.C.’s combined sewage and 

16 storm water treatment facilities, causing raw 

17 sewage to further contaminate the city’s 

18 waterways.

19 The health of D.C. residents is also at 

20 stake. D.C. is already in the top ten worst 

21 cities of the United States for ozone pollution, 

22 worsening breathing problems and causing the bad 
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1 air quality warning messages I receive regularly 

2 on hot summer days.

3 Ozone pollution will only increase with 

4 warmer temperatures and will pose an enormous 

5 threat to the health of D.C. residents. 

6 Something that makes me incredibly happy 

7 to live here is that this is the most active city 

8 in the United States. Residents, including 

9 myself, enjoy spending time running, walking and 

10 biking. But ozone pollution as an impact of 

11 climate change could make these seemingly healthy 

12 activities harmful to our bodies.

13 I believe that the time has come to act 

14 on climate change. We, as Americans, can do 

15 better. We know the threats of climate change 

16 are real. We have seen them in extreme weather 

17 events like Superstorm Sandy, in wildfires raging 

18 across the west coast and the droughts in 

19 California.

20 If we do not act now to combat climate 

21 change, it will continue to permeate our lives 

22 both in big ways like changing the American 
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1 coastline, and in small ways like threatening the 

2 availability of coffee or avocados. 

3 These impacts will continue to grow in 

4 magnitude. As I’m sure you know, there is a 40-

5 year delay in the impacts of carbon emissions. 

6 This means that we are seeing the impacts of 

7 greenhouse gas emissions that were emitted in the 

8 1970s. And since then, global carbon dioxide 

9 emissions have nearly doubled. By the time we 

10 see the impacts of carbon emitted in my lifetime, 

11 it’s likely that extreme weather events will be a 

12 common place occurrence and that wars will be 

13 fought over water unless we act now.

14 The Clean Power Plan is an opportunity 

15 for America to be a leader in the fight against 

16 climate change, and the EPA’s proposed limit on 

17 carbon emissions from existing power plants is a 

18 huge step in the right direction and needs to be 

19 finalized now. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

22 very much. 
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1 All right. We have a solo act coming up, 

2 Mark Kluto (phonetic).

3 MR. KLUTO: I have decided to make my 

4 comments in Pittsburgh.

5 MR. DEMOCKER: Okay. All right. 

6 In that case we will call Lia Kurihara 

7 and Susan Guy. 

8 All right. If you could -– we will start

9 with Lia Kurihara, and if you could spell your 

10 name.

11 MS. KURIHARA: Sure.

12 MR. DEMOCKER: Thanks.

13 MS. KURIHARA: It’s L-i-a for the first 

14 name, and then K-u-r-i-h-a-r-a. 

15 Hi, my name is Lia Kurihara, and I am a 

16 Global Warming Program intern at Environment 

17 America and also a rising junior at McGill 

18 University. I am here today because I want the 

19 EPA to know why the Clean Power Plan is so 

20 important to myself, my family and my generation.

21 When I was eight years old, Hurricane 

22 Isabel ripped branches from trees in my 
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1 neighborhood and drowned my house with rain. 

2 That was eleven years ago, and I still remember 

3 being scared. So I can’t even imagine what the 

4 people feel who went through Katrina and Sandy.

5 Nature is more powerful than us, and we 

6 don’t get to see that from day to day. When it 

7 overtakes our infrastructure and our lives, it’s 

8 overwhelming and provides us a reminder that we 

9 can’t mess with the environment. Being out of 

10 control and at the will of weather systems 

11 doesn’t leave us with a bright future. 

12 The EPA should finalize its proposed 

13 Clean Power Plan. We have knowledge that past 

14 generations didn’t have. We have support that 

15 past generations didn’t have and future 

16 generations I can guarantee will be more united 

17 in this cause. 

18 We can’t let the politics that dirty 

19 polluters and climate deniers play, get in the 

20 way of trying to save this planet. We need this 

21 proposed plan to become a reality so that we can 

22 become a part of the ecosystem rather than an 
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1 intruder. 

2 Besides reductions in carbon pollution, 

3 the Clean Power Plan will also promote 

4 investments in efficiency and renewable energy 

5 sources like wind and solar, creating the jobs of 

6 the future and building an energy infrastructure 

7 that’s safer and healthier. 

8 Yes, the coal industry provides many 

9 jobs, but those jobs aren’t sustainable. I can 

10 attest to this that people my age don’t want to 

11 enter a dying industry. People my age want to be 

12 working in the next big thing. I expect the 

13 green industry to expand even more by the time my 

14 class is starting their career path. 

15 Growing up in Maryland, I would go almost 

16 every summer to my grandpa’s bay house right on 

17 the Chesapeake Bay in southern Maryland. We 

18 would go crabbing and fishing every time I 

19 visited. Unfortunately, the bay area is 

20 threatened by flooding and inundation from 

21 climate change. The crabs and fish that I used 

22 to enjoy catching and feasting on won’t be able 
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1 to live in the saltier and warmer water unless we 

2 do something.

3 I don’t want my childhood haven to become 

4 a swampy mess. I don’t want my favorite Maryland 

5 Blue crabs to disappear. The Clean Power Plan 

6 needs to be finalized, not only for my children 

7 but for my generation. 

8 The effects of climate change have 

9 already started, and I’m not even 20 years old 

10 yet. My generation was given this world, this 

11 problem. And while we didn’t make the decisions 

12 that got us here, it will be up to us to get us 

13 out.

14 Help my generation and my kids’ 

15 generation clean this mess up now. Finalize the 

16 Clean Power Plan. 

17 Thank you.

18 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 

19 Susan Guy.

20 MS. GUY: My name is Susan Guy. The 

21 first name is S-u-s-a-n, the last name is G-u-y. 

22 My name is Susan Guy, and I am here today 
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1 as an ordained clergywoman in the Christian 

2 Church, Disciples of Christ, and as the Executive 

3 Director of Iowa Interfaith Power and Light with 

4 nearly 2,000 supporters around the state of Iowa 

5 to speak in support of the Clean Power Plan. 

6 When I was ordained 21 years ago, I never 

7 anticipated a moment when I would testify in 

8 front of the EPA. In fact, climate change was 

9 not an issue that was even remotely on my mind. 

10 Throughout my years of ministry in local churches 

11 and as an organizer, there was one key issue that 

12 occupied my heart and mind, and which led me to 

13 specific acts of charity and justice, and that 

14 issue was hunger. 

15 I encourage the congregations that I 

16 served to engage in local hunger ministries, such 

17 as support for food pantries and feeding 

18 programs. I encouraged participation in 

19 community gardens. I encouraged support for 

20 global relief efforts to alleviate hunger and 

21 poverty. I advocated for federal budget dollars 

22 to be directed to anti-poverty and hunger 
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1 efforts, both domestically and globally. 

2 And then I learned about climate change. 

3 I remember reading an article on the Geo-Politics 

4 of Food that connected the dots for me between 

5 the loss of crops due to heat waves and wild 

6 fires caused by drought and rising temperatures, 

7 the resulting food shortages in the Middle East 

8 and the rise of conflict in that region. The 

9 realization that hit me was that if I care about 

10 hunger, I need to care about climate change.

11 Climate change is a threat multiplier for 

12 so many issues about which people of faith care 

13 deeply: not only hunger, but clean water, 

14 refugees and immigrants, poverty, disaster relief 

15 efforts and issues of war and peace. 

16 It’s also an issue that 

17 disproportionately impacts the most vulnerable 

18 among us: the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised 

19 and even our children and future generations, 

20 those whom Jesus implored his followers to care 

21 for. It is a matter of justice when those who 

22 hold power trample on the needs of the powerless. 
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1 The prophet Micah asks the question: 

2 “What does the Lord require of you? To do 

3 justice and love kindness and walk humbly with 

4 your God.” Doing justice, loving kindness and 

5 walking humbly with God can take many forms, even 

6 the form of standards to limit carbon pollution 

7 from power plants.

8 It Iowans that I represent here today, 

9 people of faith from diverse religious 

10 traditions, share at least three things in 

11 common: a calling to care for creation, a calling 

12 to care for our neighbors both locally and 

13 globally, and an abiding hope that by acting 

14 together, we can find solutions to climate 

15 change. 

16 We have seen first-hand how innovation 

17 and renewable energy can be a benefit to the 

18 economy of our state and for jobs, all while 

19 keeping our energy costs low. Iowa now gets 

20 nearly 30 percent of our electric generation from 

21 wind energy, the highest percentage of any state 

22 in the nation. 
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1 At the same time, there are three to four 

2 thousand direct and indirect jobs that have been 

3 created because of the wind industry in Iowa. By 

4 creating a clear path to reducing carbon 

5 pollution in the United States, the Clean Power 

6 Plan will encourage innovation and renewable 

7 energy and energy efficiency, spurring further 

8 growth in clean energy while reducing consumer’s 

9 electric bills. 

10 It is also, and I believe most 

11 importantly, a critical step in working towards 

12 global solutions to climate change since carbon 

13 pollution from power plants accounts for almost 

14 40 percent of the U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. 

15 We are not powerless. We are powerful 

16 beyond our wildest imaginings. Let’s use that 

17 power for good. 

18 I urge you to move forward with the 

19 strongest possible carbon pollution standards in 

20 the Clean Power Plan. Do it for the poor, the 

21 sick, the disenfranchised. Do it for our 

22 children and future generations. 
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1 Thank you for having this hearing and 

2 thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you both very much. 

4 Okay. Next up we have Isabella Levy and 

5 Karissa Gerne, if I pronounced that right. Let’s 

6 start with Isabella Levy. And if you could, 

7 spell your name that would be great. Thanks.

8 MS. LEVY: It’s Isabella, I-s-a-b-e-l-l-a 

9 Levy, L-e-v as in Victor-y.

10 Good afternoon. My name is Isabella 

11 Levy, and I’m an intern with the Sierra Club in 

12 D.C. but today I’m here as a native of 

13 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and a rising Junior 

14 at Brown University. 

15 I’m here today to thank the EPA for its 

16 landmark proposal to set limits on carbon 

17 pollution from existing power plants. This is a 

18 much-needed step towards addressing climate 

19 change and a significant opportunity for the 

20 United States to honor its history as a leader in 

21 tackling the most difficult environmental 

22 challenges in innovative and effective ways.
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1 However, I am worried. The Clean Power 

2 Plan shows tremendous promise as a flexible and 

3 state-oriented means of reducing carbon. But in 

4 its current state, it’s not enough. We should be 

5 striving to make our goals as strong as possible 

6 and to meet them as quickly as possible. That 

7 means aiming for a 35 to 40 percent carbon 

8 reduction below 2005 levels and doing that by 

9 2020.

10 Over the course of today and yesterday, 

11 you have heard from moms, kids and young adults 

12 talking about the impacts of climate change on 

13 the world that future generations will know. I 

14 echo all of these fears because they are true. 

15 If we don’t act quickly or effectively enough 

16 today to curb carbon pollution, in my lifetime I 

17 will see the catastrophic impacts of unchecked 

18 climate disruption.

19 Today, though, I would like to talk 

20 instead about my beloved hometown of Philadelphia 

21 and my adopted state of Rhode Island, both of 

22 which are already feeling the sometimes deadly 
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1 impacts of climate disruption.

2 In Philadelphia, this is felt most 

3 significantly in our ever longer and more 

4 frequent heat waves in the summer and contributes 

5 to the region’s poor air quality. In the summer 

6 of 2012, at least nine Philadelphians died of 

7 heat-related causes, and five of those deaths 

8 occurred during a single 12-day stretch that tied 

9 for the fourth longest heat wave the city has 

10 ever seen.

11 Philadelphia is also listed by the EPA as 

12 a nonattainment area for ground-level ozone or 

13 smog, which is formed when pollutants like 

14 nitrogen oxides and sulfur dioxide are exposed to 

15 heat and sunlight and is a known cause of the 

16 asthma that affects 10.5 percent of the city’s 

17 children according to the American Lung 

18 Association’s 2014 “State of the Air Report,” not

19 to mention as many as 27.5 percent of 

20 Philadelphia children in low-income communities 

21 according to the Merck Childhood Asthma Network.

22 As heatwaves become longer, hotter and more 
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1 frequent, we can expect to see more smog and more 

2 asthma.

3 In Rhode Island, the effects of climate 

4 disruption may be more immediately tangible. The 

5 state was spared from the worst impacts of 

6 Superstorm Sandy but was still immobilized as 

7 storm surges buffeted coastal communities and 

8 left nearly a quarter of households across the 

9 state without power. 

10 The ocean state is also uniquely 

11 vulnerable to the effects of sea level rise. As 

12 Senator Sheldon Whitehouse often notes, the sea 

13 level recorded at the Newport Tide Gauge has 

14 risen since 1930 by nearly ten inches. This rise 

15 has accelerated the pace of erosion along the 

16 state’s four hundred –- 400 miles of coastline, 

17 which threatens to displace homes, businesses and 

18 beaches and increases their risk of serious 

19 damage with every storm.

20 I am grateful, though, that both the City 

21 of Philadelphia and the State of Rhode Island 

22 recognize the toll that climate change is taking 
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1 on their citizens, economies and environments, 

2 and that both have taken action to minimize their 

3 contribution to climate change. As part of its 

4 Greenworks Sustainability Plan, Philadelphia has 

5 made major investments in energy efficiency for 

6 municipal buildings and has helped to retrofit 

7 nearly 12,000 homes since 2009, saving over 

8 $155,000 per year in energy costs.

9 The City has also created a number of 

10 zoning policies and financing pathways that make 

11 small-scale solar energy generation easy and 

12 relatively affordable and is on track to be 

13 powered by 20 percent renewable energy in the 

14 next few years. 

15 Rhode Island has worked to increase the 

16 energy efficiency as a member of the Regional 

17 Greenhouse Gas Initiative and through innovative 

18 distributive generation legislation that allows 

19 renewable energy projects to sell power back to 

20 the national grid. This program has made it 

21 possible for independent businesses and home 

22 owners to move forward with large- and small-
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1 scale generation of renewable energy.

2 I hope that as EPA works to finalize the 

3 content of the Clean Power Plan, it looks to 

4 communities like the ones I call my own, both to 

5 understand the urgent need for strong and just 

6 carbon regulations and to gain inspiration. 

7 This is a great opportunity for the EPA 

8 to help our country lead the fight against 

9 climate change and to do it without dirty energy 

10 like natural gas and nuclear.

11 By following the lead of cities and 

12 states across our country and turning to energy 

13 efficiency and clean renewable energy, the Clean 

14 Power Plan will create jobs, spur innovation 

15 empower communities and get us back on track as 

16 an environmental leader. 

17 Thank you for your concern and for 

18 allowing me to testify today.

19 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 

20 Karissa Gerhke.

21 MS. GERHKE: Yeah. My name is Karissa 

22 Gerhke, that’s K-a-r-i-s-s-a, G-e-r-h-k-e.
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1 So thank you so much for allowing me to 

2 speak today. Again, my name is Karissa Gerhke, 

3 and I am the National Director of the Sierra 

4 Student Coalition, so the youth arm of the 

5 largest and oldest environmental organization in 

6 the country of the Sierra Club.

7 I am speaking today to help give a voice 

8 to our over 15,000 members and supporters across 

9 the country in support of the EPA’s Clean Power 

10 Plan. Many of our members have to face the 

11 innumerable injustices of environmental pollution 

12 every day from hydraulic fracturing in the hills 

13 of Pennsylvania, to gas refineries in the lower 

14 Rio Grande Valley of Texas, to mountaintop mining 

15 in Eastern Kentucky.

16 Climate change is very real for many of 

17 our members, and it is happening whether we want 

18 it to or not. More personally, I went to college 

19 to become a scientist. I was committed to using 

20 research to further our society. But when some 

21 of the first dire IPCC reports came out in 2008 

22 and 2009, I felt betrayed. I saw scientist after 
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1 scientist being questioned and ridiculed for 

2 their findings, a failed Federal Climate Bill and 

3 International Agreement and Copenhagen later, and 

4 I came to the stark realization that all of the 

5 good science in the world wasn’t going to solve 

6 climate change. We instead needed people 

7 dedicated to pushing for systemic change, and 

8 thus I became an organizer.

9 Five years later, we have finally made 

10 some major headway. The EPA’s Clean Power Plan 

11 gives me hope that my hometown of Palm Bay, 

12 Florida, won’t be engulfed by rising sea levels 

13 or flattened by increasingly strong hurricanes. 

14 It gives me hope that one day I can take my 

15 grandchildren to visit where I grew up and to 

16 play with them along the shore just like my 

17 parents did.

18 Right now, we limit mercury, arsenic, 

19 lead, soot and other dangerous pollutants from 

20 power plants, but not carbon pollution, the key 

21 driver of climate disruption. This is 

22 unacceptable and has gone on for decades too 
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1 long. The Clean Power Plan will close that loop 

2 hole and limit carbon pollution for the first 

3 time. This is historic. And youth like myself 

4 and many in this room have been waiting for a 

5 long time for this moment.

6 The Clean Power Plan is a good first step 

7 in taking action on climate change, but it is by 

8 no means the end goal or the high-water mark. We 

9 need to build upon this plan and utilize it to 

10 create a clean energy future where young people 

11 are working towards a just and clean energy 

12 economy.

13 These are the sorts of things that the 

14 youth I work with at the SSC get excited about, 

15 not about continuing with dirty energy sources 

16 that pollute our homes and oppress our 

17 communities. 

18 Thank you for allowing me to take the 

19 time to speak today, and I hope that you take all 

20 of these comments into mind as you develop your 

21 plans. Thank you 

22 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 
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1 Barbara Gottlieb and Gerard Neely. If we 

2 could start with Barbara Gottlieb; and if you 

3 could, spell your name for the court reporter. 

4 Thanks.

5 MS. GOTTLIEB: Sure. Good afternoon. 

6 I’m Barbara Gottlieb. It’s B-a-r-b-a-r-a, 

7 G-o-t-t-l-i-e-b. 

8 I am the Director of Environment and 

9 Health at an organization called Physicians for 

10 Social Responsibility. We are a national 

11 organization of health professionals addressing 

12 the greatest threats to health and survival.

13 Climate change is one of those greatest 

14 threats. That’s why Physicians for Social 

15 Responsibility applauds the EPA for introducing 

16 this necessary and important rule. We are proud 

17 to support the rule as a welcomed first step 

18 towards slashing our emissions of carbon 

19 nationwide. 

20 Greatly reducing carbon pollution as 

21 quickly as we prove that we can is the most 

22 important step our society can take to address 
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1 climate change. As PSR knows, that is necessary 

2 to protect human health. 

3 Many of us don’t think of climate change 

4 as essentially an environmental issue. PSR works 

5 to help people understand that climate change and 

6 the extreme weather it brings imposes multiple 

7 and dangerous health effects. 

8 I will briefly tick off just a few. As 

9 we know, and as we’ve heard from prior speakers, 

10 as heat increases we see more ozone formation 

11 which can trigger an increase in asthma attacks, 

12 aggravate other chronic lung diseases and 

13 aggravate pre-existing heart conditions such as 

14 angina. 

15 Heat waves also increase the risk of heat 

16 stroke, especially for the elderly or for people 

17 living in heat islands, and heat stroke can be 

18 fatal.

19 Higher temperatures also serve to expand 

20 the range of disease carrying insects. For those 

21 of us in the United States, that means that new 

22 populations are being exposed to diseases like 
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1 West Nile virus, Lyme disease, Rocky Mountain 

2 spotted fever. Higher temperatures also mean 

3 that mosquitos reproduce more rapidly and bite 

4 more frequently, and if you live around here, you 

5 don’t doubt that.

6 Climate change makes heavy, intense 

7 downpours and flooding common. That has the 

8 effect of rural areas as having flooding and 

9 runoff pickup animal wastes, pesticides and 

10 fertilizers. In cities, pollutants are from 

11 chemical pollutants, and they also overwhelm 

12 sewage systems causing untreated sewage to flow 

13 into drinking water and recreational waters.

14 This can contaminate water with bacteria, 

15 viruses, and protozoa that can trigger -- can and 

16 do trigger outbreaks of diarrheal diseases such 

17 as legionella, campylobacter and cholera.

18 Wildfires: Besides burning to death, 

19 wildfires also greatly increase our exposure to 

20 particulate matter that worsens respiratory 

21 conditions such as allergies, asthma and chronic 

22 obstructive pulmonary disease. Particulate 
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1 matter also increases heart attacks and lung 

2 cancer. 

3 Climate change is also affecting our food 

4 supply. And as we heard from the pastor from 

5 Iowa just a few moments ago, if you care about 

6 hunger then we need to care about climate change.

7 Estimates vary, but for every 1.8 degrees 

8 Fahrenheit increase in global average surface 

9 temperatures, we can expect about a 10 percent 

10 decline in yields of the world’s major grain 

11 crops: corn, soy bean, rice and wheat.

12 One thing climate change also contributes 

13 to displacement, stress, psychological effects, 

14 conflict and war. The war in Syria has been 

15 linked to that year’s -– that country’s years of 

16 drought, and conflict and violence may increase 

17 in many places as both food and water supplies 

18 constrict.

19 So these are some of the reasons that the 

20 physicians, nurses, public health professionals, 

21 other health workers in Physicians for Social 

22 Responsibility recognize this rule as urgent and 
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1 necessary. At the same time, our organization 

2 wants to underscore that the rule is not 

3 sufficient. We strongly recommend the following:

4 First of all, we urge you to call for a 

5 greater reliance on energy efficiency and 

6 renewable energy. These should be the preferred 

7 solutions as states are encouraged to pursue in 

8 meeting the carbon reduction targets.

9 Second, remove nuclear power from the 

10 list of options. Nuclear power is not renewable. 

11 It produces carcinogenic wastes that can be 

12 spilled or released into the environment as we 

13 witnessed at Fukushima and at Chernobyl and at 

14 Three Mile Island. And those wastes remain 

15 lethal to human beings essentially forever. 

16 Don’t encourage natural gas as an 

17 alternative to coal. Scientists have documented 

18 recently that natural gas extractions, 

19 specifically extraction using hydraulic 

20 fracturing, allows far more methane to escape 

21 into the atmosphere than what was previously 

22 thought. Methane is much more potent as a 
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1 greenhouse gas than is carbon dioxide. 

2 Over a 100 year time frame, I believe 

3 this is EPA’s number, that methane is 34 times 

4 more potent than carbon dioxide, but over a 20-

5 year time frame and that’s the time frame that 

6 really matters because climate change is 

7 advancing so rapidly.

8 The IPCC tells us that methane is 86 

9 times more potent. That’s devastating. It means 

10 that natural gas is terribly damaging to the 

11 climate and should not be pursued.

12 Finally, and I know you get a lot of 

13 pushback from this one, but we at PSR call on you 

14 to increase the target levels for CO2 reductions 

15 by the states. If we are to keep our planet at a 

16 cool, healthy temperature, protect our families, 

17 sustain food production and water supplies, and 

18 fend off the increasing risk of disease, much 

19 greater CO2 reductions are needed.

20 So Physicians for Social Responsibility 

21 calls on you to finalize a strong and robust rule 

22 that really does protect human health as well as 
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1 the environment. 

2 Thank you very much.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. Gerard Neely.

4 MR. NEELY: Hi, my name is Gerard, 

5 G-e-r-a-r-d, Neely, N-e-e-l-y.

6 Hello and good afternoon. Like I just 

7 said, my name is Gerard Neely. I’m an intern 

8 here at Physicians for Social Responsibility and 

9 an M.A. candidate in International and Political 

10 Economy at King’s College, London.

11 For many members of the millennial 

12 generation, the current political landscape has 

13 discouraged us from becoming involved in 

14 political debate. From healthcare to 

15 unemployment and everything in between, there 

16 seems to be a lack of appetite from our elders to 

17 solve some of our nation’s largest problems.

18 However, few issues are more –- are not 

19 more contentious than climate change right now. 

20 However, the Clean Power Plan that is proposed by 

21 EPA is a down payment in ensuring that as a 

22 nation we begin to seriously face the challenges 
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1 accompanying climate change.

2 Ladies and gentleman of the EPA, as a 

3 millennial and as a concerned citizen of our 

4 country, we need leadership and policies that 

will bring 21st century solutions to 21st 5 century 

6 problems such as climate change. This is why I 

7 am here speaking in favor of the proposed Clean 

8 Power Plan.

9 As with many of my peers born in the 

10 1980s and 1990s, almost every year of our 

11 existence seems to be named the warmest year on 

12 record. In addition to a warming planet, many 

13 growing up in the 1990s and 2000s have seen an 

14 increasing occurrence of extreme weather events. 

15 Whether it is flooding from Superstorm Sandy in 

16 the mid-atlantic and northeast, extreme drought 

17 in the western states such as California, or sea 

18 level rise threatening coastal treasures and 

19 vacation favorites like Miami and Fort 

20 Lauderdale, these events have caught the 

21 attentions of millennials in the country and 

22 across the world.
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1 While many of our parents and elected 

2 officials cast effects from climate change as a 

3 far off hypothetical event, these events that I 

4 just mentioned are clearly from the effects of 

5 climate change.

6 In Washington, D.C., we love to say the 

7 phrase, “doing this for our children and 

8 grandchildren.” However, if people are really 

9 serious about that phrase, then they need to 

10 support combating climate change. 

11 In my opinion, the Clean Power Plan 

12 proposal is a step in the right direction to 

13 ensuring the United States gets serious about 

14 combating climate change. Additionally, this 

15 proposal will showcase to our allies and 

16 developing nations across the world the 

17 importance of taking steps to mitigate risks 

18 associated with climate change.

19 I support the Clean Power Plan because it 

20 allows states and energy industry stakeholders to 

21 reduce carbon emissions in an economically 

22 efficient manner. In addition, this proposal 
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1 will encourage the development of renewable 

2 sources of energy which will play a vital role in 

3 our country’s future energy mix. 

4 Also, the development of renewable 

5 energies will create sustainable and well-paying 

6 jobs that will be vital to securing our nation’s 

7 future. 

8 I also support the Clean Power Plan 

9 proposal due to the potential to protect and 

10 improve public health. According to EPA 

11 estimates, the plan will have health benefits 

12 ranging from 55 billion to 93 billion dollars by 

13 2030. Additionally, unless we act to mitigate 

14 the impacts of climate change, we will risk the 

15 likelihood that our fellow Americans will be 

16 exposed to bacteria borne diseases, heat-related 

17 illnesses from extreme heat waves, exacerbation 

18 of respiratory ailments such as asthma, along 

19 with an array of serious and life-threatening 

20 medical conditions.

21 If our elders, our parents and elected 

22 officials are serious about leaving a healthy and 
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1 prosperous nation to their children and 

2 grandchildren, then they must support the EPA’s 

3 proposed clean power plan. 

4 Thank you, and thank you to your 

5 dedication to protecting our environment.

6 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

7 very much. 

8 All right, we will keep rolling. Next 

9 up, Adam Carpenter and Doug O’Malley.

10 All right. Adam Carpenter first. And if 

11 you could, spell your name for the court 

12 reporter. Thanks.

13 MR. CARPENTER: Thank you. It’s Adam 

14 Carpenter, A-d-a-m, C-a-r-p-e-n-t-e-r.

15 I would like to thank the EPA for the 

16 opportunity to give this presentation at today’s 

17 hearing on the Clean Power Plan. My name is Adam 

18 Carpenter, and I am with the American Water Works 

19 Association. 

20 For those unfamiliar with the AWWA, we 

21 are a membership association of approximately 

22 50,000 members, representing the whole range of 
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1 the water sector including about 3,900 water 

2 utilities and several thousand service companies 

3 and manufacturers. 

4 I would like to commend the EPA for 

5 including building block four to demand-side 

6 energy efficiency within the Clean Power Plan. 

7 By including demand-side energy efficiency 

8 measures, impacted sectors that are not directly 

9 regulated by the plan will be able to 

10 nevertheless offset at least some of their 

11 increased costs of increasing electricity prices 

12 to reducing consumption.

13 The water utility sector is estimated to 

14 use approximately one percent of the nation’s 

15 electricity supply to provide the water services, 

16 and in some areas a larger percentage. By 

17 translating the projected increased costs as 

18 electricity to the water sector, it is likely 

19 that this rule will cost utilities approximately 

20 $250 million per year by 2020, which is more 

21 expensive than most drinking water regulations 

22 have been historically. If the sector is able to 
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1 secure just one percent of the funding likely to 

2 become available for energy efficiency measures, 

3 the sector’s cost is likely to be reduced by 

4 about $100 million per year.

5 AWWA strongly believes that the water 

6 utilities sector could be an important part of 

7 reaching the state’s goals laid out within the 

8 EPA’s Clean Power Plan. There is an ever9 increasing body of literature about ways to 

10 increase energy efficiency at water treatment 

11 plants, in drinking water distribution, and in 

12 wastewater collection and treatment. 

13 In many ways, water utilities are a 

14 golden opportunity for energy efficiency programs 

15 as they are professionally staffed, continuously 

16 operated, are present in most communities around 

17 the country and their efficiency gains can be 

18 easily verified as needed.

19 Although water utilities can participate 

20 to some extent in the more common replacement of 

21 lighting and heating and air conditioning systems 

22 that are presently in current state plans, we 
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1 believe that there are great gains to be made 

2 throughout the Water-Energy nexus not only 

3 covered by existing state rebate incentive 

4 programs, but to include other items such as more 

5 efficient pumps and motors, reducing lost water 

6 and rehabilitation and replacement of worn and 

7 less-efficient infrastructure with more efficient 

8 equivalents. 

9 Therefore, the AWWA would like to 

10 encourage the EPA to include language in the 

11 final rule as well as in guidance and supporting 

12 materials for the states, electric utilities and 

13 the public that the water sector can be included 

14 as an important part of achieving energy 

15 efficiency upgrades.

16 We further encourage the EPA in their 

17 discussions with and guidance to states to allow 

18 for custom energy efficiency improvements to be 

19 eligible for funding rebates and incentives as 

20 many of the solutions throughout the water sector 

21 will be custom solutions for the particular 

22 circumstances in that area.
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1 Thank you for your time and attention, 

2 and the AWWA looks forward to submitting 

3 additional written comments during the remainder 

4 of the comment period. Thank you.

5 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you. 

6 Doug O’Malley. 

7 MR. O’MALLEY: Good afternoon. My name 

8 is Doug O’Malley, and I’m the Director with the 

9 Environment New Jersey. We represent over 20,000 

10 citizen members across the great garden state.

11 MR. DEMOCKER: If you could spell your 

12 name, too.

13 MR. O’MALLEY: Sure. I’m Doug, D-o-u-g, 

14 O’Malley, O apostrophe, capital M-a-l-l-e-y, a 

15 great Italian name.

16 I just want to start out by actually 

17 thanking each of you individually -- both 

18 chairmen and Glenn for, again, your diligence and 

19 listening to all of this testimony. This is 

20 clearly a marathon session both here and in 

21 Room A and across the country.

22 And obviously thank you to Administrator 
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1 McCarthy for soliciting comments from across a 

2 broad swath. You know, I’ve of course only had a 

3 chance to listen to a few testimonies over the 

4 course of the last half of an hour; but you know, 

5 the fact that Susan flew all of the way here from 

6 Iowa, and she talked about the importance of 

7 climate change regarding the faith community. 

8 You know, she had these testaments to, you know, 

9 the fact that there is just broad public support, 

10 you know, for this rule that the Administrator 

11 has moved forward. 

12 And most, I guess, poignant for myself, a 

13 year ago, I taped a video request to the 

14 President with my at that point six-month-old 

15 daughter, Elsa, asking for him to follow through, 

16 the Obama Administration, on his clean –- the 

17 climate action plan. And, you know, it obviously 

18 wasn’t just -– it obviously was a lot of hard 

19 work of the EPA over the course of the last, you 

20 know, really I would say 18 months, you tell me 

21 -- how long have you been working on this? 

22 But that’s -- you know, this is a huge 
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1 step forward and millions of Americans have been 

2 calling for this action. I think also poignant 

3 too, this is the first part of completing a 

4 promise made by then candidate Obama on the night 

5 of his acceptance speech six years ago in saying 

6 that this Administration will be the 

7 Administration that stops the rising of the seas. 

8 And that’s a promise that, you know, 

9 wasn’t necessarily fulfilled as much as it could 

10 be in the first term. The Clean Power Plan will 

11 help to fulfill it in the second term.

12 And I just want to talk briefly on why 

13 this matter is so important -– why this issue is 

14 so important obviously for New Jersey and the 

15 impacts of the climate. I also just want to talk 

16 about, you know, what New Jersey is doing and why 

17 we can’t do it alone, and then finally, the 

18 importance of a strong Federal Implementation 

19 Plan. So recalcitrant states, whatever they 

20 might need, you will know that you cannot wait 

21 this one out.

22 Just to talk about climate impacts, the 
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1 latest research from Rutgers really mirrors the 

2 issues we have seen across the way). Thirty-five 

3 years from now, we will see a sea level rise of a 

4 foot-and-a-half in Jersey. I don't know if folks 

5 in the audience have been to the Jersey Shore 

6 recently. Parts of the Delaware Bay shore are 

7 actually below sea level and then Atlantic City 

8 and Long Beach Island, really the hubs of our 

9 tourism economy, our barrier islands. And if we 

10 see, you know, a rise of 18 inches, we will see a 

11 vastly different shore.

12 Clearly the impact of extreme weather is 

13 not esoteric despite what the Governor says for 

14 New Jersey residents. Hurricane Sandy turned our 

15 city upside down. And it wasn’t just the shore. 

16 It was our communities right across from New York 

17 City up in Hudson County. It was inland 

18 communities that got flooded. It was obviously 

19 the majority of the state that was without power 

20 for two-plus weeks.

21 You know, there are shore communities 

22 that are still devastated that aren’t necessarily 
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1 coming back because people, you know, were – you 

2 know, obviously it’s hard to rebuild. And it’s 

3 clear not only that we need to adapt to climate 

4 change, but we need to mitigate it. And 

5 obviously this action will help us to do that.

6 And then finally we heard, you know, from 

7 PSR on the importance of, you know, the health 

8 impacts. A city like New York by 2050 is 

9 projected to have over 50 days of 90 degree plus 

10 temperature. This is in a state where over 

11 600,000 people suffer from asthma, and a state 

12 where 17 of 18 counties are out of compliance 

13 with our ozone standards. So as it stands right 

14 now, we have a lot of work to do, and climate 

15 change is going to -– is going to load the dice 

16 and make things a lot harder.

17 Just to get on into the second point, New 

18 Jersey has done so much. We have done –- we have 

19 one of the strongest laws on the books to fight 

20 global warming and global warming response by 

21 reducing emissions by 80 percent by 2050. We are 

22 one of the top states in the country in solar, 
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1 New Jersey. We’re there -– right there with 

2 Germany and California. 

3 And then finally our offshore wind 

4 potential is huge. And BOEM recently granted an 

5 offshore wind option off the Jersey Shore. We 

6 expect to see that being moving forward as 

7 shortly as possible. 

8 But one power plant in Georgia puts out 

9 more pollution than all of our power plants 

10 combined. That’s why regardless of what we do in 

11 New Jersey, we desperately need federal action. 

12 And the Clean Power Plan can help us to do that. 

13 And finally, just on the -- you know, 

14 that’s the bulk of the Clean Power Plan, the 

15 building blocks that we have heard so much about. 

16 You know, I certainly want to echo the 

17 recommendation of PSR on the need to really 

18 double down on true energy solutions like energy 

19 efficiency and solar and not to be doubling down 

20 on gas and expanding nuclear facilities.

21 And just my last comment on this is that 

22 the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, it’s a 
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1 great program. Other states should join it, and 

2 New Jersey should rejoin it. There is a public 

3 hearing eight days from now, for New Jersey to do 

4 that. Regardless of government preseason 

5 transience, New Jersey will need to comply with 

6 the Clean Power Plan. And I strongly encourage 

7 the Administration and the Administrator to move 

8 forward, not just with the plan, but to be, you 

9 know, strong with the Federal Implementation Plan 

10 for states that hem and haw and say they have 

11 already met their goals when they haven’t. 

12 Thank you again for all of your work, and 

13 obviously thank you to the Administrator for all 

14 of her work. I look forward to working with the 

15 EPA in the months and years to come.

16 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you both 

17 very much. 

18 Okay. Next up we have Hugh Pitcher and 

19 Kristin Barker. Or just Kristin Barker.

20 All right. Welcome, and if you could, 

21 spell your name for the court reporter. Thank 

22 you.
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1 MS. BARKER: Kristin, K-r-i-s-t-i-n, 

2 Barker, B-a-r-k-e-r. 

3 As a native of New Mexico, a parent, a 

4 practicing Buddhist and co-founder of a community 

5 of Buddhists engaged on climate change and as 

6 someone recently diagnosed with Lyme disease, I 

7 am here to speak in support of the Clean Power 

8 Plan. 

9 The 2500-year-old Buddhist tradition is, 

10 at its core, asking us to each look closely at 

11 what is happening and then respond with wisdom 

12 and compassion. As it turns out, there are many 

13 teachings from that tradition that apply to 

14 question of coal-fired power plant emissions.

15 First and foremost, Buddhism is embedded 

16 with a deep reverence for the whole of life. All 

17 other beings, human and non-human, are understood 

18 to be endowed with an inherently pure, vast, 

19 luminous and loving nature. The “first precept” 

20 of consciously and vigilantly minimizing the harm 

21 thus arises from this clarity. 

22 You have heard by now many accounts of 
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1 how systematic and broad-scale the harm, and coal 

2 plant emissions as being the cause. This harm 

3 comes directly in the form of decreased air

4 quality in more than half of the country’s local 

5 communities, and it comes indirectly through 

6 their significant contribution to climate change 

7 with upwards of 40 percent of the U.S. carbon 

8 emissions arising every day from these 

9 facilities.

10 Buddhism holds that we are all charged 

11 not only with protecting all present beings, but 

12 those yet unborn. The threat of global climate 

13 change thus implores us to speak and act to cut 

14 these emissions in order to protect the basic 

15 conditions for life.

16 Buddhism also recognizes the need for 

17 right-livelihood. That is, we each must have the 

18 means for living in a way that meets our own 

19 basic needs and refrains from harming others. 

20 While proponents of the coal-fired power plants 

21 may point to the threat of job loss, it is in 

22 your power to create the conditions for not only 
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1 many more clean energy jobs in the future, but 

2 the integrity of all of these jobs. We simply 

3 cannot blame the Kentucky coal miner for the harm 

4 her labors cause when she has no viable 

5 alternatives. It is in the EPA’s power to create 

6 the market conditions that produce jobs and more 

7 harm-free jobs.

8 My tradition also speaks to the 

9 underlying causes of climate change as they are 

10 the same for all causes of suffering. Why in the 

11 presence of a clear and present danger on the 

12 scale of global warming would we not take 

13 decisive action to curb on emissions -- carbon 

14 emissions?

15 The Buddhist wisdom tradition points to 

16 the three poisons, the qualities that distort our 

17 view, at the same time bind our awakening to the 

18 truth of our natural and pure being. These are 

19 the forces of greed, hatred and delusion. In our 

20 complex civilization, these have taken on 

21 institutionalized form. Corporations are running 

22 solely on greed as well as a media and the body 
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1 politic willing to perpetuate delusion. 

2 The EPA, with the Clean Power Plan, thus 

3 has a critical role to play in checking these 

4 forces on a national scale, insisting that the 

5 undiluted reality of a degrading global 

6 atmosphere come into balance with private coal 

7 company interests.

8 Finally, the Buddhist wisdom tradition 

9 understands that all things are interdependent. 

10 There may be no better illustration of this truth 

11 than climate change. The coal pulled from the 

12 mountains of Western Virginia and burned in Ohio 

13 creates carbon pollution that warms the Earth and 

14 melts the glaciers of Tibet, flooding villages in 

15 Nepal and draining into the Indian Ocean which 

16 rises sea levels which in turn flood the U.S. 

17 Naval base in Norfolk, Virginia.

18 We are all learning that none of us, not 

19 as individuals, communities or even nations, is 

20 wholly separate and independent of each other. 

21 While this runs in stark contrast to idealized 

22 notions of rugged individualism, global and 
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1 catastrophic climate change will be a ruthless 

2 teacher if we don’t learn this lesson soon 

3 enough. 

4 But if the causes of global climate 

5 change are interdependent, so are its solutions. 

6 We are not separate. To protect the Earth, the 

7 air, the water is to protect life, to protect 

8 ourselves.

9 The EPA, through the Clean Power Plan as 

10 a first step, has the duty and opportunity to 

11 minimize the harm, enable plentiful and ethical 

12 jobs, recognize the interdependence of all life 

13 and play its assigned role in protecting the 

14 conditions for a healthy life to continue. 

15 Thank you for this is opportunity to 

16 speak on this most critical issue.

17 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. 

18 Hugh Pitcher.

19 MR. PITCHER: Hello, my name is Hugh 

20 Pitcher, H-u-g-h, P-i-t-c-h-e-r. 

21 I worked at EPA from 1978 through 1989 

22 when I worked for the Joint Global Change 
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1 Research Institute where I retired from in 2010.

2 I want to talk today about a couple of 

3 issues that I have been researching since then. 

4 The first one has to do with the pattern we see 

5 when it comes to sea level rise. When you look 

6 at the time in which I have done most of my 

7 thinking about this issue, you see that beginning 

8 in about 1995 we began to see this terrible 

9 change in the seasonal pattern. The ice melt in 

10 the artic –- in the sea ice. The sea ice doesn’t 

11 have anything to do with sea level rise, but the 

12 energy that goes up there is pretty substantial. 

13 In other words, if you take half of the 

14 energy that goes to melting sea ice, that will 

15 give you about three centimeters of sea level 

16 rise a year from melting ice. And that doesn’t 

17 sound like much, but that’s a foot a decade. A 

18 foot a decade is a lot of sea level rise. 

19 So the problem we have there is that we may be 

20 well on the way to having a situation where by, 

21 say, 2020 to 2030 we will have no ice left in 

22 spring and summer time in the arctic. At that 
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1 point in time, the energy will go to melting 

2 Greenland. And once Greenland starts melting, I 

3 think we’re about -– well, Greenland will give us 

4 about seven meters of sea level rise which will 

5 pretty well ruin downtown D.C. along with lots of 

6 other places on the face of the planet. 

7 So the second problem that I have has to 

8 do with longevity, and I have been doing a lot of 

9 work on that lately. The problem with longevity 

10 is that when we make our estimates, we use a way 

11 of looking at the data that ignores the fact that 

12 as you get younger cohorts, they have overall a 

13 better life expectancy in the long run. So what 

14 we do is we look at the –- we make an estimate on 

15 -- all of the life expectancy numbers that we 

16 have in front of us are estimated by saying it’s 

17 –- well, basically I’m 73 now. I mean, the way 

18 my estimate would be done, they would take the 

19 death rates for people 74, 75, 76, 77 -– the 

20 current death rate. But if you look at the 

21 pattern of my cohort compared to these cohorts, 

22 you will see that my death rate is not going to 
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1 be that high, so instead of -–

2 MR. DEMOCKER: Excuse me, could you bring 

3 the microphone a little closer?

4 MR. PITCHER: Sorry.

5 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you.

6 MR. PITCHER: So the problem is that the 

7 death rates that were used to project life 

8 expectancy are too high. And in my case, it 

9 makes about three years difference per 

10 individual. But I’m not an individual. There 

11 are a couple hundred -– probably 700,000 people 

12 like me out there. So if you add three years to 

13 that, that’s going to be two million years more 

14 -– lives –- years lived. That’s going to be an 

15 expensive bill. It’s about two million bucks a 

16 year -- two billion bucks a year on average. 

17 So that’s just with this one cohort, just 

18 for the males. Females are harder to work with 

19 unfortunately because they have something that 

20 starts at about age 60 that increases their rates 

21 more than when they reach about age 80, and then 

22 comes back. It still stays less – it’s still is 
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1 lower than males. But even so, in this problem 

2 you are going to have this very expensive bill 

3 coming due in say 2040 – 2050, about the time 

4 that the sea level rise becomes a problem. 

5 So it’s a combination of these things 

6 that suggests that this is a good time to be very 

7 aggressive about curbing Greenhouses gases 

8 because if we don’t -– if we are not aggressive 

9 now, we are going to be in big trouble later on. 

10 Thank you.

11 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you very much. I 

12 will just note as a personal note, it’s nice to 

13 see you. Back when I was a young analyst at EPA, 

14 newly minted in the late 1980’s. Hugh was very 

15 patient with me in explaining a lot of the 

16 principles about what -– how work gets done 

17 around the EPA, so it’s nice to see you again. 

18 It’s been a while, so it’s nice to see you. 

19 And thank you both for your comments.

20 Okay. We have two cards. I assume we 

21 can do these together. It’s Rodney Sobin and 

22 Donald Goldberg.
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1 All right. We will start with Rodney 

2 Sobin. I if you could, spell your name.

3 MR. SOBIN: Okay. Thank you. 

4 My name is Rodney Sobin, R-o-d-n-e-y, 

5 S-o-b-i-n. And I am Director of Research and 

6 Regulatory Affairs of The Alliance to Save 

7 Energy. 

8 The Alliance to Save Energy appreciates 

9 the opportunity to speak at this public hearing 

10 on the Clean Power Plan. The Alliance, founded 

11 in 1977 by Senators Charles Percy and Hubert 

12 Humphrey, is a coalition of –- is a non-profit 

13 coalition of business, government, environmental 

14 and consumer leaders that supports energy 

15 efficiency as a cost-effective energy resource 

16 and advocates energy-efficiency policies that 

17 minimize costs to society and individual 

18 consumers. 

19 MR. DEMOCKER: Sorry to interrupt you, 

20 can you bring the microphone -–

21 MR. SOBIN: Sure. Sorry about that.

22 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. 
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1 MR. SOBIN: I’m losing seconds on your 

2 clock.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: Oh, we will give you the 

4 seconds back.

5 MR. SOBIN: The Alliance has worked 

6 extensively with energy utilities, commercial 

7 industrial firms, public agencies, consumer and 

8 environmental organizations, and others to 

9 promote energy efficiency as an approach to 

10 mitigate the environmental impacts of energy use 

11 as well as to achieve other benefits. 

12 When air quality regulations are 

13 considered, we favor approaches that recognize 

14 credit and promote the role of energy efficiency 

15 for reducing adverse and environmental impacts.

16 Therefore, we applaud the EPA for 

17 including and encouraging energy efficiency as a 

18 compliance strategy in the Clean Power Plan. The 

19 prominent position of energy efficiency in the 

20 proposed rule offers a potentially transformative 

21 opportunity to increase the nation’s energy 

22 efficiency and its energy productivity; that is 
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1 the amount of GDP generated per unit of energy 

2 consumed.

3 In applauding EPA’s recognition of energy 

4 efficiency, we also wish to offer several 

5 observations that we hope will strengthen the 

6 role of efficiency below a compliance cost while 

7 delivering economic, energy reliability and 

8 environmental benefits.

9 First, states need clearer guidance on 

10 how to convert rate-based goals to mass-based 

11 goals. States need such guidance in order to 

12 consider mass-based limit option. States that 

13 adopt mass-based approach where compliance is 

14 measured as CO2 at the stacks may be able to 

15 adopt efficiency policies and evaluation, 

16 measurement and verification, that is EM&V 

17 processes, in their compliance plans that don’t 

18 need as much scrutiny from EPA as they would 

19 under a rate-based system, but would nonetheless 

20 deliver emissions reductions. 

21 Second, states need clearer guidance on 

22 including non-utility efficiency policies and 
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1 programs in their compliance plans. The rule 

2 proposal and its technical support documents 

3 appear to focus on utility ratepayer supported 

4 efficiency programs when discussing EM&V, 

5 enforceability and other considerations. 

6 However, more than half of U.S. energy 

7 efficiency investments are undertaken outside of 

8 utility program contexts. About $6 billion of 

9 privately contracted energy efficiency projects 

10 are performed annually by energy service 

11 companies. This amount is comparable in 

12 magnitude to utility demand-side management 

13 programs.

14 In addition to state building codes, 

15 weatherization programs, local building policies 

16 and programs, and industrial investments in 

17 efficiency and combined heat and power and also 

18 public sector energy upgrades such as for street 

19 lighting and water and sewer -- which we heard 

20 from the AWWA speaker before -- and other systems 

21 also contribute to energy savings and concomitant 

22 emissions avoidance. 
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1 Third, enforceability EM&V and other 

2 state plan consideration that should be balanced 

3 to assure that energy savings are accurately 

4 counted but that requirements are not cumbersome. 

5 Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 

6 There is a tradeoff between accuracy and rigor on 

7 the one side, and cost and effort on the other 

8 side for EM&V and emissions quantification.

9 Cumbersome requirements impeded the use 

10 of energy efficiency and renewable energy to meet 

11 criteria pollutant requirements under the NOx SIP 

12 Call and other programs. 

13 We are pleased the EPA developed and 

14 EE/RE and SIPS Roadmap and quantification tools 

15 to help address this for criteria pollutants and 

16 believe such tools will be useful under the Clean 

17 Power Plan. 

18 The EPA should also allow the use of 

19 model-based evaluation of energy savings and 

20 emissions impacts as it does for transportation 

21 measures under State Implementations Plans and 

22 transportation conformity programs. Many energy 
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1 efficiency measures are small, widely disbursed 

2 activities more resembling individual vehicles 

3 than regulated stationary sources. 

4 If various transportation measures can be 

5 credited for NOx reductions and reduced ambient 

6 ozone layers –- levels, with all of the 

7 complexity and uncertainty of the modeling 

8 weather and atmospheric chemistry, it would seem 

9 likely that crediting energy efficiency for 

10 avoided power plant CO2 should be more straight 

11 forward.

12 My fourth point concerns combined heat 

13 and power, CHP, where we support a full 

14 100 percent crediting of useful recovered thermal 

15 energy. Again, the appliance -– the Alliance 

16 applauds the EPA for recognizing and encouraging 

17 energy efficiency for reducing emissions and 

18 achieving compliance. We will continue to engage 

19 with you, including through a formal written 

20 comment, while working with our stakeholders on 

21 this topic. 

22 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 
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1 today on this important proposal, and we hope 

2 these comments are useful.

3 MR. GOLDBERG: Hello, my name is Donald 

4 Goldberg. I am the President of the Climate Law 

5 and Policy Project here in Washington. It’s 

6 based here in Washington. Previously -–

7 MR. DEMOCKER: Could you spell your last 

8 name?

9 MR. GOLDBERG: I’m sorry, Goldberg, 

10 G-o-l-d-b-e-r-g.

11 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. 

12 MR. GOLDBERG: I also directed the 

13 Climate Program at the Center for International 

14 and Environmental Law for many years since its 

15 inception until about 2007 when we started CLPP.

16 I hadn’t planned to comment today, but I 

17 saw there was a little time available and I 

18 appreciate the opportunity to come in as a last19 minute speaker. We will submit formal comments 

20 before the end of the comment period. But I 

21 wanted to say a couple of things quickly.

22 First, I want to compliment the work the 
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1 EPA has done. It went in a direction very 

2 similar to what we have been advocating and 

3 hoping for. For many years, we have been 

4 proposing, advocating an approach that when we 

5 first came out with it, it was very 

6 controversial. 

7 We believed that the shift in targeting 

8 -- in characterizing targets should be not so 

9 much on the emissions –- of course, the emissions 

10 are ultimately most important, but we believe 

11 that a reduction-based approach could have a lot 

12 of merit. I won’t go into all of the reasons.

13 But initially, we started just as a way 

14 to bring developing countries into the general 

15 protocol –- to devise a target that developing 

16 countries could meet safely at a time when a cap 

17 didn’t seem realistic for them. 

18 Subsequently, as we analyzed this 

19 further, we began to see more and more problems 

20 with cap and trade and with carbon taxes. I 

21 think one way to sum them up is simply to point 

22 out that it require –- both require emitters to 
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1 pay both for –- both the cost of making 

2 reductions and for their emissions. And we think 

3 that this makes climate regulation needlessly 

4 expensive. We are not looking to put companies 

5 out of business because we need those companies 

6 to actually help solve this problem. 

7 I will just make two quick points about 

8 the regulation that you have proposed. I haven’t 

9 read every page of it, but I have read quite a 

10 lot of it. I was very pleased to see that it 

11 appears to take an approach that’s consistent 

12 with reduction-based counting. I think it 

13 affects what EPA has done. 

14 Our proposal would require emitters to 

15 make a certain amount of reduction for each time 

16 of the emission. You can almost think of it as a 

17 pay-as-you-go system. So for a 20 percent 

18 target, say for each time of emission, the 

19 emitter would be responsible for 20 percent of 

20 action to bring back reductions, 20 percent of a 

21 ton in reductions. 

22 The EPA obviously doesn’t go that far, 
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1 and that will be the decision for the states; 

2 but, you know, we hope that EPA will think about 

3 that and be mindful of the fact that the polluter 

4 pays principles and carbon taxes and cap and 

5 trade of all costs on emitters proportionately to 

6 their emissions. So we think it would make sense 

7 to stick to that principle when states implement 

8 the EPA rule and a reduction target would 

9 accomplish -– the action target I talked about 

10 would accomplish that. 

11 I also just wanted to mention two things. 

12 Well, I said costs should be borne by emitters. 

13 And with your -– the way you planned -- you have 

14 proposed to translate from -– from rate-based to 

15 mass-based targets, we think takes us away from 

16 that, the benefits of a reduction-based or even a 

17 rate-based approach and gets us back into cap and

18 trade. 

19 We hope you will think –- well, we will 

20 submit formally our proposal. And we hope you 

21 will consider this idea of making reductions 

22 proportionate to emissions rather than projecting 
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1 what emissions might be and trying to set a mass2 based target that would be equivalent to a rate3 based target. We think this pay-as-you-go 

4 approach would make for exact equivalence. So I 

5 will stop there.

6 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thanks very 

7 much. And I will assure you, we will consider 

8 every option.

9 MR. GOLDBERG: I’m sure you will.

10 MR. DEMOCKER: Thank you. 

11 All right. Greg Bertelsen.

12 MR. BERTELSEN: Hi.

13 MR. DEMOCKER: If you could, spell your 

14 name for the court reporter. That would be 

15 great.

16 MR. BERTELSEN: Berterlsen, 

17 B-e-r-t-e-l-s-e-n. 

18 MR. DEMOCKER: Thanks. It’s all yours.

19 MR. BERTELSEN: Good afternoon. 

20 My name is Greg Bertelsen, and on behalf 

21 of the National Association of Manufacturers and 

22 its 12,000 members, I am pleased to offer the 
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1 following remarks on the Environmental Protection 

2 Agency’s proposed Greenhouse Gas Regulation for 

3 Existing Power Plants. 

4 The NAM is the nation’s largest 

5 Industrial Trade Association representing small, 

6 medium and large manufacturers in every 

7 industrial sector and in all 50 states. We all 

8 have a responsibility to ensure that we leave a 

9 clean and safe environment for future 

10 generations. Manufacturers are committed to 

11 doing –- or continuing to do our part.

12 Manufacturing and other industrial’s 

13 carbon emissions are down 13 percent since 2005, 

14 while manufactures value to the economy grew by 

15 19 percent over the same time period.

16 These reductions have been driven by 

17 technological breakthroughs, increased energy 

18 efficiency and a commitment to sustainability 

19 principles. Manufacturers create the products 

20 and systems that drive efficiency and reduce 

21 emissions from better insulation for homes, to 

22 more efficient engines, to more dynamic recycling 
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1 programs.

2 The importance of getting this policy 

3 right could not be overstated. The manufacturing 

4 comeback is taking place in this country, in part 

5 driven by access to affordable and reliable 

6 energy. 

7 This regulation as proposed threatens 

8 this comeback by fundamentally changing how 

9 energy is made, distributed and consumed. It 

10 will increase energy prices. It will limit or

11 eliminate sources of energy in some parts of the 

12 country. It could threaten the reliability of 

13 our electricity grid, and decisions once 

14 controlled by market forces like supply and 

15 demand will now be dictated through regulation.

16 If the Administration is intent on 

17 continuing down the path of issuing Greenhouse 

18 Gas Regulations for Existing Power Plants, the 

19 EPA has a duty to ensure that its regulation is 

20 legal, enforceable and does not add unnecessary 

21 layers of regulatory uncertainty that will freeze 

22 investments and stifle innovation.
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1 The NAM questions whether portions of the 

2 proposed regulation will pass legal muster. Even 

3 with an expansive review of the Clean Air Act and 

4 extreme deference to agency interpretations of 

5 statutory law, it is nearly impossible to imagine 

6 how the best system of emission reduction for a 

7 power plan could include actions and investments 

8 that take place well beyond the fence line of 

9 that facility and reach to any entity that may 

10 produce or utilize energy.

11 When regulatory agencies bound by laws 

12 written by Congress develop new terms like 

13 inregulatory materials like tailoring or building 

14 blocks, is a warning sign to the NAM that they be 

15 exceeding their legal authority. 

16 To date, the agency has not indicated how 

17 and under what authority it plans to implement 

18 such a program if it does not remove states’ 

19 plans. How can the agency in good faith proceed 

20 with a policy if it cannot enforce it?

21 The NMA encourages the EPA to heed the 

22 warning of the Supreme Court when it struck down 
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1 the Greenhouse Gas Tailoring Rule earlier this 

2 year. 

3 The Court’s majority opinion stated 

4 quote, “When an agency claims to discover in a 

5 long-extant statute an unheralded power to 

6 regulate a significant portion of the economy, we 

7 typically greet its announcement with a measure 

8 of skepticism.”

9 We expect Congress to speak clearly if it 

10 wishes to assign an agency decisions of vast 

11 economic and political significance.

12 To be clear, the NAM does not question 

13 state’s ability to adapt implementing measures 

14 that allow for a wide range of compliance 

15 options. However, there are significant legal 

16 questions regarding how the agency has set its 

17 states targets -– state targets, that demand 

18 attention before we go any further with this 

19 regulatory process.

20 Listing all of the NAM’s concerns, 

21 questions and uncertainties associated with this 

22 regulation will take much longer than five 
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1 minutes. Through the Partnership for a Better 

2 Energy Future, a diverse coalition of 172 

3 organizations, the NAM submitted a letter on 

July 21st 4 , 2014, to the EPA describing in more 

5 detail several of these concerns. 

6 The NAM encourages the EPA to pull this 

7 proposed regulation back and address the concerns 

8 expressed in the partnership’s letter and the 

9 numerous other concerns and questions raised by 

10 other stakeholders. 

11 At a minimum, the NAM respectfully 

12 requests that you extend the comment deadline by 

13 another 60 days so that we have adequate time to 

14 review, assess and ultimately comment on the 1600 

15 pages of the regulatory text.

16 The stakes of this policy could not be 

17 higher. Prioritizing arbitrary deadlines over a 

18 vast and inclusive rule making process is unwise 

19 at best, and in the eyes of manufacturers is 

20 irresponsible. 

21 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

22 with you today on this important issue. With the 
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1 right policies and access to affordable and 

2 reliable energy, manufacturers in the United 

3 States will continue to develop sustainable 

4 solutions that will fuel job creation and drive 

5 economic growth. 

6 Thank you very much.

7 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you for 

8 sharing your comments. 

9 All right. Well, we don’t have any more 

10 speakers in the cue, but we have been asked to 

11 keep the session open until 5:00, sharp so it’s 

12 nine minutes. So we will just be here and stand 

13 by. And if anyone does show up in the last 

14 minute, we want to make sure that they have an 

15 opportunity to speak. So maybe we should do 

16 exercises or something.

17 Laverne van Vliet. I hope I pronounced 

18 it right. You can correct me.

19 MS. VAN VLIET: I’m just joining because 

20 it seems fun, and I think this is where I’m 

21 supposed to be.

22 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. And if you 
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1 could, spell your name for the court reporter. 

2 That would be great. So we are back on the 

3 record.

4 MS. VAN VLIET: Lauren van Vliet. That’s 

5 L-a-u-r-e-n, lower case v-a-n, space, capital 

6 V-l-i-e-t. It’s always fun to spell. 

7 Well, thank you guys for fitting me in. 

8 I hear you have got dinner break soon, so I 

9 apologize but it’s quite a room you’re sitting 

10 in, so thank you first for listening to all of us 

11 because I hear you guys have been doing this for 

12 two days.

13 So what I have to tell you guys is that 

14 it is a little bit of a numbers speech, and I’m 

15 sure you guys are sort of sick of that. But the 

16 electric power sector contributes one-third of 

17 the total U.S. Greenhouse Gas emissions. I would 

18 just like that to sink in, that’s one-third. 

19 And I don’t get how that number is not 

20 big enough yet. And maybe it’s the hamburger 

21 effect, a quarter-pounder somehow seems more 

22 immense than things that are in one-thirds. But
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1 perhaps it’s just been a while since we have all 

2 had math class.

3 But I don’t think the Count on Sesame 

4 Street ever really covered fractions. And if he 

5 did, I can see why he didn’t go into thirds 

6 because thirds are sort of a terrible number. A 

7 third of the world’s population lacks sufficient 

8 access to drinking water. A third of Americans 

9 over 20 are obese. And a third of Americans have 

10 delinquent death. Thirds are terrifying numbers. 

11 A thirds is also the amount of gas that comes out 

12 of our power plants which affects lungs. So, no, 

13 I don’t think the Count ever taught thirds, but 

14 because terrible things happens in thirds but 

15 maybe halves could be better.

16 One half –- that’s not threatening. 

17 Halves –- milk comes in halves. Half off 

18 clearance is pretty nice -- so what else comes in 

19 halves? Your lungs. According to the American 

20 Lung Association, half of children under the age 

21 of 18 experience asthma attacks. And I don't 

22 know if you three have ever experienced an asthma 
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1 attack, but breathing comes in half -- literally 

2 in half. Imagine if the Count could review that. 

3 Now kids, my pets -– half of them can’t 

4 breathe. So imagine quite literally half of them 

5 not flying. That wouldn’t fly on PBS, and that 

6 doesn’t fly in America. We can’t have half of 

7 our kids not being able to breathe at some point 

8 in their lives. 

9 And I just want to let you to know what 

10 asthma attacks are like. I am lucky enough to 

11 not have them anymore. But just imagine your 

12 windpipe tightening. Not just to one-third of 

13 its size, not just to one-half of its size or 

14 one-quarter of its size, try an eighth. And 

15 imagine your diaphragm then pumping up and down 

16 and convulsing desperately trying to breathe and 

17 get air into your lungs. And you’re heaving and 

18 the best you can do to desperately try to get a 

19 breath, each breath exhausts you. It’s like 

20 you’re drowning on dry land, and wide eyed and 

21 terrified. And you start knocking things over 

22 and hoping that someone will hear you because you 
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1 sure as hell can’t say anything even if someone

2 is around you. And so your entire body flushes 

3 with panic and your mind tries to coax your body 

4 into breathing. 

5 I know that feeling all too well. And 

6 I’m here today because I don’t want that feeling 

7 to happen to anybody else. Not in America and 

8 not on Earth. I’m also sick with asthma and sick 

9 with people telling me that America is the best 

10 nation in the world, and telling me that America 

11 is the world’s leader, America this, and America 

12 that. And America just needs to quit it with the 

13 self-glorifying propaganda and start acting as a 

14 world leader. 

15 And you guys can help with doing that by 

16 -– by listening to everyone who has come before 

17 you. And over the past few days, we are the 

18 people behind the statistics, so please hear that 

19 and think, hey, I could maybe not be a hero, but 

20 I can do my job and cut emissions that are coming 

21 out of these power plants and help children 

22 breathe, and take action against an antiquated 
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1 industry that is hurting American people. Take 

2 action to prevent carbon emissions. Thanks.

3 MR. DEMOCKER: All right. Thank you very 

4 much for your comments. We appreciate it. Okay. 

5 And with that, we stand adjourned until the 

6 evening session which will start at 6:00 p.m.

7 All right, great. Well, thank you all 

8 for coming. And on behalf of everyone at the 

9 panel and everyone at EPA that will be reviewing 

10 and considering your comments, thank you for 

11 sharing them. So thank you. 

12 (Dinner recess from 4:59 p.m. to 6:00 p.m.)

13 EVENING SESSION

14 EPA PANEL 3:

15 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Good evening everybody. 

16 My name is Peter Tsirigotis and I am one of the 

17 Chairs of today’s public hearing. Thank you for 

18 coming today. Joining me on the panel this 

19 evening are Bill Stevens and Bill Irving. 

20 We are here today to listen to your 

21 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

22 pollution from power plants. The EPA announced 
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both of these proposed rules on June 2nd 1 , 2014.

2 Power plants are the largest source of 

3 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

4 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

5 emissions. 

6 The first rule is EPA’s proposed Clean 

7 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

8 proposal consists of two main parts: State9 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

10 power plants and guidelines to help states 

11 develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

12 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

13 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

14 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

15 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

16 their goals by 2030.

17 The second rule is EPA’s proposed 

18 rule to address carbon dioxide emissions from 

19 modified and reconstructed power plants. This 

20 rule would set emission limits for two groups of 

21 power plants, those that make physical or 

22 operational changes that increase the plant’s 
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1 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions and 

2 those that replace components to such an extent 

3 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

4 capital cost of an entirely new, comparable 

5 facility. 

6 If you would like more details on either 

7 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

8 available near the registration desk.

9 Today’s hearing is one of four public 

10 hearings across the country this week on the two 

11 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

12 in each of the hearings, and I would like to 

13 thank you for taking the time out of your day to 

14 join us and share your comments with us.

15 We have a lot of people signed up to 

16 speak today, and we want to hear from all of 

17 them. So before we get started, I’d like to go 

18 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

19 that will help make today’s hearing run smoothly.

20 First, please be sure you have checked in 

21 at the registration desk even if you are not 

22 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 
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1 speak online or by phone but haven’t told us that 

2 you’re here, please step out to the registration 

3 desk and let -– let the EPA staff know that you 

4 have arrived.

5 Second, if you are a speaker you were 

6 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

7 or Room B. Make sure you’re in the right room. 

8 And this is a good time to switch if you’re in 

9 the wrong room. And this is Room B.

10 All right. Here is how today’s hearing 

11 will work. I will call speakers up in pairs. 

12 When your name is called, please come to the 

13 table at the front of the room. When I call you 

14 to speak, please state your name and spell it for 

15 the court reporter. 

16 Your comments will be transcribed and 

17 included in the record of comments in the 

18 proposed rules. Each speaker will have five 

19 minutes to give comments. We have a light to 

20 help you know how much time you have left to 

21 speak. When the light turns from green to 

22 yellow, that means that you have one minute 
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1 remaining. When it turns red, that’s a signal to 

2 wrap up your testimony. The light will flash red 

3 and beep when you have spoken for five minutes 

4 and it is time to stop. 

5 When you are finished speaking, please 

6 remain at the table until the person next to you 

7 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

8 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

9 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. 

10 I will then call up the next pair of 

11 speakers and so on. 

12 If you have brought a written copy of 

13 your testimony, please give it to the staff at 

14 the registration desk before you leave today.

15 Because of the large number of people 

16 that have signed up to speak and to be fair to 

17 everyone, we are going to strictly enforce the 

18 five minute time limit. If you have additional 

19 comments you would like to make, you can submit 

20 them in writing. 

21 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

22 much consideration to comments we receive in 
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1 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

2 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

3 you would like to say, please submit it. Your 

4 comments will be reviewed. There is plenty of 

5 time to get written comments in, and there are 

6 comment cards available at the registration desk. 

7 Comments must be received no later than October 

16th 8 , 2014. 

9 We will put any written comments 

10 submitted today in the official docket for the 

11 proposed rules. Instructions for submitting 

12 written comments and other ways are available at 

13 the materials table near the registration desk.

14 We are scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

15 tonight. If you have any questions, please see 

16 the staff at the registration desk and someone 

17 will try to help you.

18 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

19 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

20 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

21 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

22 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair to 
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1 everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

2 Even applauds can slow things down, and we want 

3 to hear from everyone who signed up to speak.

4 Thank you again for taking the time today 

5 to share your comments on EPA’s proposed rules. 

6 So we are ready to get started. Thanks for 

7 sitting by. 

8 The first two people are Carl Glincesten 

9 and Amanda Rones. Hopefully, I pronounced those 

10 correctly. If you could, spell your name for the 

11 court reporter -- Amanda. Let’s give it one 

12 second, Carl, just to see if Amanda is outside, 

13 if you don’t mind. 

14 Let’s go ahead and get started. If you 

15 could, spell your name for the court reporter.

16 MR. GLINCENSTEN: C-a-r-l, 

17 G-l-i-n-c-e-n-s-t-e-n. 

18 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. 

19 MR. GLINCENSTEN: I just wanted to say --

20 I just want to say that I strongly support the 

21 regulation because climate change is obviously a 

22 huge problem in this country’s future and as we 
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1 move along. 

2 Already the earth has been warming for 

3 the last substantial bit of time, and if we do 

4 not deal with the climate as it stands, it will 

5 become catastrophic and cause mass extinctions. 

6 The statistic that I saw was that 40 percent of 

7 species will be threatened if we don’t act in a 

8 very short period of time. 

9 The areas that are now fertile for 

10 agriculture will no longer be fertile, and 

11 agriculture will suffer to a point where food 

12 supplies will be in danger. And we’re already 

13 having trouble feeding people on the planet as it 

14 is, so if we don’t deal with this current 

15 situation, it will be massively catastrophic. So 

16 it’s necessary to act immediately. 

17 And I just wanted to also say that while 

18 I support very strongly these initial steps, the 

19 Obama Administration’s plan to hold up drilling 

20 and to expand natural gas production are not good 

21 alternatives. We have to do everything we can to 

22 immediately switch to free our sources of energy 
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1 and that opening that up is not doing that 

2 obviously. And for natural gas, that is not 

3 really an alternative because it produces methane 

4 on the -- well, methane is released on its 

5 production and that’s even worse for climate 

6 change in the short term and will probably last 

7 longer. And so this feverish rush to switch to 

8 natural gas is, from what I understand, urgently 

9 stated. And if you are, in fact, just fooling 

10 people, it doesn’t really -– it doesn’t make any 

11 sense. If you’re going to do something to 

12 actually solve a problem, then try to do 

13 something to solve a problem. But, you know, if 

14 you do something to fool people into thinking 

15 you’re trying to solve a problem but you’re not 

16 really trying to solve the problem, that doesn’t 

17 seem to make any sense. 

18 That’s all I want to say.

19 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you very much, 

20 Carl. And you can leave since we didn’t plan –-

21 thank you. 

22 Amanda Rones. Hi, Amanda. If you could, 
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1 spell your name for the court reporter.

2 MS. RONES: So it’s Amanda, A-m-a-n-d-a, 

3 and Rones is spelled R-o-n-e-s.

4 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

5 MS. RONES: So first I wanted to thank 

6 you very much for this opportunity to speak and 

7 thank the EPA for bringing forward the Clean 

8 Power Plan. I speak today as a student, a 

9 sophomore of biology at William & Mary, who is 

10 just now grappling with this responsibility of my 

11 generation to address this looming catastrophe 

12 that we have inherited. 

13 I speak as a sister whose brother suffers 

14 so badly with allergies that when he was tested, 

15 he had shots up and down both of his arms and 

16 across his back. The tests concluded that 

17 basically he is allergic to everything that 

18 grows. And climate change has led to a longer 

19 allergy season, leaving him with a runny nose, 

20 red eyes and coughing four months out of the 

21 year.

22 I speak as a friend of those with asthma 
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1 who are left feeling like they are breathing 

2 through a straw and have days where it is simply 

3 dangerous to go outside. I speak as a lover of 

4 our wild spaces whose most treasured memories 

5 includes scrambling through brambles for berries, 

6 wading through ponds, catching frogs with my bare 

7 hands and then falling asleep on the ride home 

8 with jars full of bugs and grass-stained knees.

9 I miss seeing the loss of these wild 

10 spaces. Forests destroyed with lights and 

11 invasive species that spread with the increasing 

12 temperatures, lakes choked with algae and streams 

13 with dead fish, rivers filled with trash littered 

14 with plastic bags. I’m seeing the effects of 

15 green pollution and climate change. They are 

16 already upon us. 

17 The time for inaction is long past. The 

18 time of denial is long past. We cannot deny the 

19 effects of severe droughts, forest fires, 

20 hurricanes and coastal flooding on American 

21 communities. Nor can we deny the remaining 

22 effects of smog and bad air quality that is 
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1 directly caused by carbon emissions. Or the 

2 irreversible habitat and diversity loss caused by 

3 climate change. Now is the time for action. 

4 This is a global problem and it demands a global 

5 solution.

6 America must set a strong example if we 

7 are to ask others to support in this climate 

8 fight. We are a country of innovators, explorers 

9 and leaders. So we must put forward the 

10 strongest possible Clean Power Plan we can. 

11 It is our responsibility as Americans, as 

12 community members, as human beings, to take a 

13 strong stand against carbon emissions for the 

14 future of our wild spaces and the health and 

15 safety of generations of Americans to come. 

16 Thank you.

17 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Amanda.

18 Next we have Ann Dixon and Keith Schue.

19 MS. DIXON: Ann, A-n-n, Dixon, D-i-x-o-n. 

20 I am a volunteer at Protecting Our Waters.

21 So I thank the EPA for this historically 

22 significant proposal to reduce carbon emissions 
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1 from power plants. The United States needs to be 

2 a leader on this issue for the sake of our own 

3 planet. To quote Stephen Colbert, “The United 

4 States emits more CO2 per capita than the 

5 European Union and China combined. Just think 

6 what those emission numbers would be if America 

7 still made anything.” 

8 There is plenty of wide-ranging support, 

9 including support from businesses, for reducing 

10 emissions. Reducing emissions of course will 

11 address climate change. The National Hockey 

12 League Commissioner Gary Bettman wrote a letter 

13 accompanying the league sustainability report 

14 released in July. “As a business, we rely on 

15 fresh water to make our ice, on energy to fuel 

16 our operations and on healthy communities for our 

17 athletes, employees and fans to live, work and 

18 play. To continue to stage world-class outdoor 

19 hockey events, we need winter weather. Our sport 

20 can trace its roots to frozen freshwater ponds, 

21 to cold climates. Major environmental challenges 

22 such as climate change and fresh water scarcity 
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1 affect opportunities for hockey players of all 

2 ages to learn and play the game outdoors.”

3 The Risky Business Project at 

4 riskybusiness.org is co-chaired by Michael 

5 Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York City. 

6 Risky Business hired the Rhodium Group, an 

7 economic research company that analyzes 

8 disruptive global trends to write a report about 

9 economic risks of climate change. Scientists and 

10 economists worked on this report with Risk 

11 Management Solutions. Risk Management Solutions 

12 is the largest catastrophic modeling company.

13 This report analyzes economic costs for 

14 all regions of the U.S. Eighty-eight percent of 

15 the population of the Northeast region where I 

16 live is in coastal counties. And sixty-eight 

17 percent of the regions most domestic product is 

18 generated in these counties. “As a result of 

19 much of the reasons residential, commercial and 

20 energy infrastructure is also at or near sea 

21 level, making these assets particularly 

22 vulnerable to climate impacts. Within the next 
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1 15 years, higher sea levels combined with storm 

2 surge will likely increase the average annual 

3 cost of coastal storms along the eastern seaboard 

4 and the Gulf of Mexico by 2 billion to 

5 $3.5 billion. Adding the potential changes in 

6 hurricane activity, the likely increase in 

7 average annual losses goes up to about 7.3 

8 billion, bringing the total annual price tag for 

9 hurricanes and other coastal storms to 

10 $35 billion.” 

11 This is theoretical information, but 

12 climate change is affecting our economy right 

13 now. Droughts are exacerbated by climate change. 

According to David Pierson’s July 26th 14 L.A. Times 

15 article, because California has had a three-year 

16 drought, farms have desperately hired 

17 professionals to drill even deeper for water. By 

18 the end of June, Tulare County, California, had 

19 given out 874 well permits, which is 44 more than 

20 all of last year. 

21 The U.C. Davis Center for Watershed 

22 Scientists estimated that there would be 
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1 $1 million in lost revenue and 500 million in 

2 additional pumping costs this year. California 

3 farmers are responsible for roughly half of the 

4 nation’s fruit, nuts and vegetables.

5 I want us to look for a much larger 

6 carbon emission reduction goal of 35-40 percent 

7 below 2005 levels in 2020, rather than the 

8 current EPA plan of 30 percent. The plan for 

9 Pennsylvania, my home state, was to transfer some 

10 electric generation from coal-fired power plants 

11 to natural gas combined cycle plants. 

12 I will say, I am flabbergasted by this. 

13 I mean, according to NASA scientists Drew 

14 Shindell, methane is 105 times more potent to 

15 greenhouse gas than carbon over a twenty-year 

16 time frame. Methane of course is release by 

17 fracking, and fracking gas is will power these 

18 coming ice-melt events. 

19 Fracking is causing serious illness and 

20 suffering right now. And as a result of air and 

21 water contamination, people have nose bleeds, 

22 hair loss, skin lesions and migraines. Farm 
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1 animals have died. 6,085 individuals and 

2 families nationwide have been directly negatively 

3 affected by fracking. This number is from the 

4 List of the Harmed, which shows documented cases 

and was last updated on June 7th 5 . You can google 

6 the List of the Harmed and you will find it.

7 So fortunately –- so also natural gases 

8 uses millions of gallons of water for fracking --

9 I can see that I’m done. So it’s ironic that, 

10 you know --

11 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: If you could -- and if 

12 you have the rest of your testimony in writing, 

13 if you could give it to the registration desk, 

14 that would be great. 

15 Thank you very much.

16 Keith, if you could spell your –-

17 MR. SCHUE: It’s K-e-i-t-h, 

18 S-c-h-u-e.

19 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

20 MR. SCHUE: Good evening. My name is 

21 Keith Schue, and I’m here today on behalf of 

22 Sustainable Oswego, an organization in upstate 
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1 New York dedicated to healthy communities and 

2 renewable energy. We look forward to the day 

3 when our nation is no longer dependent on a 

4 dwindling supply of fossil fuels that require 

5 extreme means of extraction –- blowing up 

6 mountains for coal or shattering bedrock for gas.

7 We would love to tell you that we think 

8 this Clean Power Plan is a bold initiative with 

9 strong measures to tackle the serious problem of 

10 climate change.

11 Unfortunately, we can’t do that. It’s 

12 advertised 30 percent goal falls far short of the 

13 President’s Copenhagen pledge for a 42 percent 

14 reduction in U.S. emissions by 2030 and 

15 83 percent by 2050. The rule looks backwards to 

16 2005 to take credit for reductions caused by a

17 weak economy and greater dependence on fracked 

18 gas -- which I’ll get to in a moment -- and it 

19 sets lukewarm targets for states, going easy on 

20 those with the greatest emissions.

21 Disturbingly, the rule ignores the 

22 greatest opportunity for tackling climate change 
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1 and creating jobs by essentially leaving 

2 renewables like wind and solar on the shelf. 

3 Rather than challenging states to do better than 

4 existing renewable portfolio standards, it lowers 

5 the bar, suggesting goals for some states that 

6 are actually less than what they have already 

7 achieved today.

8 With this testimony, I’m submitting a 

9 chart by Climate Action Tracker, which shows that 

10 this plan does not even actually come close to 

11 achieving America’s share of greenhouse gas 

12 reductions required to remain under the 2 degree 

13 Celsius temperature rise necessary to avoid the 

14 worst impacts of climate change.

15 Another problem is that reduction targets 

16 for each state are measured per unit of energy 

17 meaning pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour. Like a 

18 diet that limits calories per cookie, but not the 

19 number of cookies, this won’t work in the long 

20 run because it allows emissions to rise as the 

21 demand for power goes up. 

22 We are also concerned about 
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1 implementation. The rule relies on states to 

2 interpret targets, invent their own programs and 

3 enforce them, including states which are 

4 dominated by the absurd politics of climate 

5 change denial. Thus, the rule invites weak 

6 targets to be further watered down or simply 

7 ignored.

8 Despite these shortcomings, we understand 

9 that it may be desirable, especially in today’s 

10 political climate, to at least think of this rule 

11 as a “good start” and maybe a baby step, but at 

12 least one step in the right direction. We would 

13 prefer to look at it way that too, but honestly 

14 we can’t. And the reason we can’t is because 

15 this proposed rule injects adrenalin into the 

16 fundamentally flawed notion that natural gas is a 

17 clean source of energy.

18 Right now in New York, concerned 

19 families, doctors, nurses and scientists are 

20 engaged in an epic battle against an industry 

21 that wants to frack our state and build the 

22 infrastructure for long-term dependency on 
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1 fracked gas. We have seen our friends in 

2 neighboring Pennsylvania get sick; we have read 

3 the reports of contaminated wells and air 

4 pollution; we have witnessed the damage to roads, 

5 property and communities caused by the ruinous 

6 boom-bust cycle of this industry.

7 We also know that when you consider 

8 lifecycle emissions, not just carbon dioxide but 

9 also methane lost during the production, 

10 processing and transmission. When you consider 

11 those things, you find out that natural gas is 

12 not any better than coal from the standpoint of 

13 climate change.

14 As explicitly stated in Building Block 

15 Number 2 and also allowed in Number 3, the effect 

16 and the intent of this plan is to accelerate the 

17 use of fracked gas and facilitate the development 

18 of gas-fired power plants. That’s a huge problem 

19 for us. 

20 Even if the EPA eventually considered 

21 separate rules for methane, this plan for power 

22 plants is defective because it would have states 
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1 and utilities make decisions about electricity 

2 based on one thing only; carbon dioxide emissions 

3 from combustion. And that will lead to bad 

4 decisions. Contrary to how it’s been advertised 

5 and how it’s predicted to increase the amount of 

6 electricity generation from fracked gas in 2020 

7 by nearly ten times the meager boost it’s going 

8 to give to renewables, and it would have almost 

9 no effect on the amount of renewables in the 

10 country by 2030.

11 Perhaps the most damaging, by 

12 accelerating investments in fracked gas right 

13 now, the plan could tip the scales towards fossil 

14 fuels for decades to come. Once new gas-fired 

15 plants are in operation, there will be less 

16 incentives for utilities to reinvest in 

17 renewables since the massive capital outlay for 

18 gas infrastructure will have already occurred.

19 For the record, I am submitting a 

20 compendium of fully-cited reports, studies and 

21 articles compiled by Concerned Health 

22 Professionals of New York, which describe the 
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1 risks and harms of fracking, including its impact 

2 on climate change.

3 Simply put, juggling between fossil fuels 

4 will not achieve the big changes necessary to 

5 save ourselves from climate catastrophe. 

6 Switching from coal to gas is, at best, a move 

7 sideways at a time when we urgently need to move 

8 forward.

9 We urge the EPA to replace this rule with 

10 one that sets aggressive targets for the 

11 advancement of zero-emission sources of energy, 

12 including renewables powered by wind, water and 

13 sunlight. The bottom line is that we will not be 

14 able to solve climate crisis as long as most of 

15 our energy still comes from fossil fuels.

16 We have the ingenuity and we have the 

17 moral imperative to do the right by future 

18 generations who will inherit this Earth. What we 

19 need now is leadership. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you very much, 

22 Keith. Please, if you could, give it to the 
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1 registration desk right along with your name, 

2 they have you on the list.

3 Rick Nunno, only one person. 

4 I’m sorry, Rick. If you could, spell 

5 your name for the court reporter.

6 MR. NUNNO: It’s Rick or Richard Nunno, 

7 N-u-n-n-o.

8 The acoustics are a little bit echoey.

9 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: I apologize.

10 MR. NUNNO: I am a member of the board of 

11 the DC Chapter of the Sierra Club. We advocate 

12 for progressive change on a wide range of local 

13 issues affecting the Washington, DC, community. 

14 These include increasing energy conservation and 

15 promoting renewable sources of energy in DC, 

16 supporting the National Sierra Club’s Beyond Coal 

17 Campaign, supporting weatherization of homes and 

18 buildings and promoting legislation for smart 

19 energy policy.

20 We also have extensive efforts underway 

21 in the areas of transportation and smart growth, 

22 zero waste legislation and policy, environmental 
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1 justice and lowering the carbon footprints of 

2 individual citizens.

3 Our Chapter and our Club as a whole 

4 support of the EPA’s efforts in general to 

5 regulate gases that contribute to climate change, 

6 and in particular to its Clean Power Plan. 

7 As the most urban Sierra Club chapter in 

8 the nation, our constituents are exposed to the 

9 harmful health effects of dirty energy more so 

10 than most other state-based chapters. We are 

11 acutely aware of the risks of failing to reduce 

12 the nation’s and the world’s carbon output in 

13 terms of environmental degradation and increasing 

14 environmental catastrophes.

15 Power plants account for 40 percent of 

16 the carbon pollution in the United States, and 

17 most urban dwellers live in areas where the air 

18 is unsafe to breathe, making the Clean Power Plan 

19 a critical step to reduce those risks.

20 The plan will prevent thousands of asthma 

21 cases and premature deaths annually and will 

22 drive innovation in clean energy sources, growing 
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1 the economy and creating jobs.

2 From the soot and smog reductions alone, 

3 each dollar invested in the Plan will net 

4 Americans seven dollars in health benefits. So 

5 really, we can’t afford not to support this 

6 regulation of carbon pollution.

7 While some states like West Virginia have 

8 a long way to go to meet the proposed standard, 

9 they will have a full decade before they would 

10 have to show progress and initial improvements 

11 will be far easier for a state like West Virginia 

12 than for other states that have already made 

13 progress, so it’s definitely an improvement.

14 We embrace the idea that the Plan is 

15 designed to shift the nation away from coal. And 

16 we oppose the idea of ramping up the coal 

17 industry for export to China and India, and the 

18 vast majority of Americans agree with us.

19 Indeed the proposed plan does not go far 

20 enough in protecting the health and the front21 line communities that are exposed to the hazards 

22 of coal mining and burning, but it is a good 
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1 first step towards our ultimate goals.

2 To repeat the words from Senator Markey’s 

3 speech at yesterday’s rally, “You can’t preach 

4 temperance from a barstool,” to the rest of the 

5 world on climate change. We need to wean off of 

6 coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear energy, and 

7 ramp up our use of renewables along with 

8 improving our energy efficiency by orders of 

9 magnitude to forestall a climate crisis. It is 

10 only fair to future generations to act 

11 responsibly now.

12 If we don’t take action at the national 

13 level, it will be impossible to convince other 

14 nations to do so. The time is far overdue to end 

15 the corporate control of our energy policy and to 

16 take actions in the best interest of our citizens 

17 of today and in the future. 

18 Thank you for the opportunity to share my 

19 views.

20 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you very much. 

21 Next we have two people Dale Louda and 

22 Tonya Winders. Thank you. If you could, spell 
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1 your name before you start your testimony. 

2 You go first --

3 MR. LOUDA: Hello. I’m Dale Louda, 

4 D-a-l-e, L-o-u-d-a.

5 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. And you can 

6 give your testimony, and then Tonya can.

7 MR. LOUDA: Good evening. My name is 

8 Dale Louda, the Executive Director of the CHP 

9 Association. 

10 I would first like to tell you a bit 

11 about CHPA and why combining heat and power is a 

12 critical energy source for the United States. 

13 And then I would like to present some preliminary 

14 recommendations. 

15 The CHP Association is a non-profit trade 

16 association representing diverse manufacturers, 

17 suppliers and developers of CHP systems to 

18 promote the growth of clean, efficient local 

19 energy generation in the United States. Since 

20 1999, CHPA has been the leading voice of the CHP 

21 industry in the United States. CHPA’s mission is 

22 to increase deployment of combined heat and power 
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1 and waste energy recovery systems to benefit the 

2 environment and the economy.

3 Our members include Caterpillar, General 

4 Electric, Rolls Royce, Southern California Gas, 

5 Capstone Turbines, Chevron, National Grid, 

6 Cummins, Washington Gas Energy Systems, Broad 

7 USA, and more than 20 other manufacturers, users, 

8 consultants, financiers, and supporters of CHP.

9 Combined heat and power is the 

10 simultaneous generation of electricity and useful 

11 thermal energy. These efficient systems recover 

12 heat that normally would be wasted in an 

13 electricity generating unit, and save the fuel 

14 that would otherwise be used to produce heat or 

15 steam in a separate unit. As a result, CHP 

16 systems are capable of reaching overall 

17 efficiencies of 60 to 80 percent.

18 There is approximately 82 gigawatts of 

19 CHP installed in the U.S., accounting for 

20 12 percent of the U.S. electricity generation. 

21 Each year, this installed capacity decreases 

22 energy use by almost 1.9 quadrillion BTUs, and 
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1 avoids the release of over 248 million metric 

2 tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

3 CHP technologies offer: one, improved 

4 quality; two, reduced energy consumption; and 

5 three, improved grid reliability. 

6 Because of these benefits, in 2012 

7 President Obama issued an Executive Order calling 

8 for 40 gigawatts of new CHP capacity by 2020. 

9 The Emission Guidelines could be a critical 

10 component in meeting this goal, if modified as 

11 suggested here.

12 First of all, CHPA would like to 

13 acknowledge EPA’s important positive discussion 

14 of CHP. EPA cites CHP as a potential way for 

15 large energy users to increase energy efficiency, 

16 as a tool that states can use to reduce pressure 

17 on the grid and increase reliability, and as a 

18 potential component of approvable state energy

19 efficiency resource standards.

20 CHPA shares EPA’s goal to encourage 

21 efficiency and reduce emission. We therefore 

22 present the following recommendations to make the 
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1 proposed Emission Guidelines even stronger:

2 These positive attributes demonstrate 

3 that EPA should ensure that the Emission 

4 Guideline does not inadvertently reduce the use 

5 of CHP by exempting facilities that utilize 

6 efficient CHP from being affected EGUs.

7 The importance of such an exemption is 

8 demonstrated by EPA’s treatment of CHP as part of 

9 the BSER. Under block two, EPA presumes that a 

10 state can and should redispatch from steam 

11 generating units -- including those utilizing CHP 

12 -- to existing natural gas combined cycle 

13 facilities, even if those facilities do not 

14 utilize CHP. However, CHP is often installed for 

15 the host’s industrial process and is not a 

16 dispatchable resource like an EGU. Reduction of 

17 electric output at an affective EGU with CHP will 

18 more likely result in fossil fuel combustion at 

19 both the facility and at the NGCC facility, and 

20 therefore increase emissions overall. EPA’s 

21 building block two should not assume redispatch 

22 from CHP to NGCC, and EPA should not consider 
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1 efficient CHP facilities affected EGUs to begin 

2 with.

3 In addition to ensuring that the Emission 

4 Guideline does not inappropriately discourage the 

5 use of CHP, EPA should provide guidance to the 

6 states that new CHP can serve as an effective 

7 inside-the-fence emission reduction strategy.

8 The CHP Association commends EPA for taking a 

9 step in the right direction by proposing that 66 

10 to 100 percent of a CHP facility’s useful thermal 

11 output can be used in calculating a facility’s 

12 emission rate. Because both electric and useful 

13 thermal power provide productive energy services, 

14 EPA should treat useful thermal energy on par 

15 with electric energy and provide 100 percent 

16 credit.

17 Finally, EPA is taking comments on 

18 whether CHP approaches warrant consideration as a 

19 potential way to avoid affected EGU emissions. 

20 As with other methods of emission reduction EPA 

21 has considered, such as energy efficiency, 

22 installation of new industrial Combined Heat and 
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1 Power will reduce the utilization of existing 

2 fossil fuel fired generation and, therefore, will 

3 reduce emissions from affected EGUs. EPA should 

4 clearly signal states that such new CHP can be 

5 considered an end-use energy efficiency measure.

6 We thank the EPA for this opportunity to 

7 discuss the importance of CHP and will be 

8 providing additional written comments. 

9 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

10 MS. WINDERS: Thank you, and good 

11 evening. My name is Tonya Winders, T-o-n-y-a, 

12 W-i-n-d-e-r-s. And I am the President and CEO of 

13 Allergy & Asthma Network. 

14 Allergy & Asthma Network Mothers of 

15 Asthmatics is a leading grassroots of patient 

16 advocacy organization dedicated to ending the 

17 needless death and suffering due to asthma, 

18 allergies and related conditions.

19 During the past 29 years, AANMA has 

20 worked alongside hundreds of thousands of 

21 patients, caregivers and healthcare professionals 

22 to achieve optimal health outcomes for patients 
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1 with these conditions.

2 AANMA appreciates the opportunity to 

3 provide comments to EPA regarding carbon 

4 pollution and lessening the burden on the greater 

5 than 26 million Americans whose lungs are 

6 affected by asthma. We trust our comments will 

7 assist in their deliberation on this important 

8 matter.

9 AANMA urges the EPA to adopt standards 

10 protecting public health and reducing the real 

11 threats climate change poses today and for 

12 generations to come.

13 First and foremost, as the mother of five 

14 children, I am personally concerned about my own 

15 children’s health. My children love to play 

16 outdoors, and I encourage them to do so. 

17 However, I am concerned about the long-term 

18 future they face with increased pollution and 

19 hotter summer days. In fact, my 11-year-old 

20 daughter, Katelyn, has asthma so we watch the 

21 weather forecasts and air pollution reports with 

22 great interest. On days with the worst air 
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1 quality, she often stays indoors and must be more 

2 vigilant about carrying her medication with her 

3 in the event of an emergency.

4 Asthma is a chronic disease affecting 

5 more than seven million children in the U.S. 

6 Every day in our country, nine or ten people die 

7 from asthma. To many people, these are nameless 

8 statistics, but to AANMA these are family 

9 members, names like Christopher Ledford, Krissy 

10 Taylor and Benjamin Buckley.

11 Studies clearly demonstrate asthma is a 

12 complex disease with multiple causes and 

13 contributing factors. Among those factors, the 

14 level of CO2 emissions and its effects on 

15 respiratory health are most important. In fact, 

16 nitrogen oxides and sulfur dioxide irritate the 

17 lungs, trigger asthma exacerbations and increase 

18 the risk of hospitalizations and emergency room 

19 visits.

20 Secondly, we need the Clean Power Plan to 

21 protect public health. Power plant pollution 

22 makes people sick and is proven to cut lives 
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1 short. Steps to cut carbon pollution will also 

2 impact other pollutants and reduce the burden of 

3 air pollution today and tomorrow. In fact, 

4 research shows reducing carbon pollution in 

5 accordance with the plan would reduce 100,000 

6 asthma attacks in 2020 and 150,000 asthma attacks 

7 in 2030.

8 EPA must take action because climate 

9 change poses real threats, including increased 

10 heat, drought and extreme weather events. The 

11 Clean Power Plan is flexible and encourages 

12 states to use effective tools to reduce carbon 

13 pollution. State leaders should be able to craft 

14 an approach to reduce pollution and meet the 

15 goals set forth.

16 Allergy and Asthma Network stands before 

17 you today representing one thing: patients’ best 

18 interests. We seek no commercial benefit nor 

19 have further ulterior motives. We provide these 

20 comments to help EPA adopt the strongest 

21 standards in the Clean Power Plan so that my 

22 children and millions like them will have a 
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1 brighter, healthier future. 

2 Thank you.

3 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Tonya.

4 Sheila Holman and Anna Prados.

5 MS. HOLMAN: Good evening. My name is 

6 Sheila Holman, spelled S-h-e-i-l-a, H-o-l-m-a-n.

7 I am the Director of the Division of Air 

8 Quality in the North Carolina Department of 

9 Environment and Natural Resources, or NCDENR, and 

10 I am here to provide comments on behalf of 

11 NCDENR.

12 NCDENR believes EPA’s proposed rules 

13 under Section 111(d) to reduce greenhouse gases 

14 from both power plants and beyond power plants is 

15 legally and technically flawed. The EPA appears 

16 to recognize the legal vulnerabilities by 

17 proposing to make each of the building blocks 

18 independently severable, as if realizing they 

19 will be vacated by the Court during judicial 

20 review.

21 The issue that I wanted to begin with is 

22 limited State resources. If this rule is 
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1 finalized in its current form, states will be 

2 immediately required to amend not only their 

3 state air programs but will be required to 

4 fundamentally restructure their State’s entire 

5 energy generation and delivery system. This 

6 significant undertaking will run parallel with 

7 the judicial review of the rulemaking.

8 States have been through several 

9 exercises where EPA’s shaky legal interpretations 

10 have resulted in states taking actions to satisfy 

11 a federal rule that is later determined by the 

12 Courts to be illegal. Look no further than the 

13 rulemaking such as the Clean Air Interstate Rule, 

14 the Clean Air Mercury Rule and most recently the 

15 GHG PSD Tailoring Rule. 

16 This final rule, whatever form it 

17 ultimately takes, should not require states to 

18 begin taking action until the completion of the 

19 judicial review. This is to preserve the state’s 

20 limited resources and ensure that actions taken 

21 in response to the EPA rule will not be for 

22 naught. NCDENR is calling this approach a legal 
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1 trigger deadline, and we urge the EPA to respect 

2 their state partners and include this provision 

3 in any final rule.

4 With respect to the legal issues, I will 

5 hit upon a few of our concerns. First, EPA’s 

6 current proposal to regulate new fossil-fuel 

7 fired electric utility units under Section 111(b) 

8 of the Act is based on their finding that carbon 

9 capture and sequestration, CCS, has been 

10 adequately demonstrated. CCS has, in fact, not 

11 been adequately demonstrated. The legal 

12 implication is critical since EPA is barred from 

13 implementing an existing source rule under 111(d) 

14 without having successfully promulgated a new 

15 source standard under 111(b).

16 Next, Section 111(d) prohibits the 

17 overlap of 111(d) with two other programs in the 

18 Act. Section 111(d) prohibits the EPA from 

19 regulating pollutants from source categories 

20 regulated under Section 112 as well as pollutants 

21 regulated under that program. In 2011, EPA 

22 issued regulations under Section 112 applicable 
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1 to fossil fuel-fired electric generating units 

2 thereby foreclosing regulation under Section 

3 111(d). 

4 In cases where the EPA does have the 

5 authority to establish emission guidelines under 

6 Section 111(d), that authority is limited. EPA 

7 cannot establish a unit-specific guideline that 

8 describes what control technologies have been

9 demonstrated. The plain language of the Act as 

10 well as the legal precedent precludes EPA and 

11 states from implementing building blocks 2, 3, 

12 and 4 -– all designed to require emission 

13 reductions outside of the affected emissions 

14 unit.

15 Finally, on an equitable issue, EPA has 

16 defined reductions on a state-by-state basis. 

17 The basis was the existing power generation 

18 technologies and policies unique to each state. 

19 For example, some states relied more on nuclear 

20 generation, while others relied more on coal 

21 combustion for their generation. EPA applies 

22 those building blocks to this generation, and the 
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1 result is that -– since EPA based the potential 

2 improvements on the current energy portfolio, the 

3 resultant rule has the outcome of requiring the 

4 smallest greenhouse gas reductions from states 

5 with the highest coal usage. This outcome is a 

6 direct result of EPA’s use of source categories 

7 for compliance other than that regulated by the 

8 proposed standard, that is the coal-fired power 

9 plants.

10 Further, EPA’s selection of 2012 as the 

11 baseline appears to penalize those states like 

12 North Carolina that took early action to reduce 

13 greenhouse gas emissions.

14 NCDENR believes the Clean Air Act Section 

15 111(d) for coal-fired power plants should simply 

16 apply to each coal-fired power plant taking into 

17 account the statutory factors such as the 

18 remaining useful life of the unit to determine 

19 what the emission standard should be.

20 NCDENR plans to submit more substantive 

21 written comments by the comment deadline. I 

22 thank you for the opportunity to provide comments 
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1 today. 

2 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Sheila.

3 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you get the 

4 sound better?

5 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: The sound on the 

6 speaker?

7 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

8 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Not to my knowledge, 

9 it’s kind of –-

10 AUDIENCE: It’s very echoey. 

11 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: It’s very echoey?

12 AUDIENCE: Yes. 

13 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: I’m sorry. I don’t hear 

14 the echo. That one is the problem. I can’t 

15 unplug this one. Do we need to use the 

16 microphone in order –

17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

18 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: For –

19 AUDIENCE: It’s fine.

20 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: It’s fine? If they 

21 don’t use the microphone, is that okay, If it’s 

22 too much of an echo with it?
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1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can try.

2 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Should we try without 

3 the microphone? I apologize -– I can’t hear the 

4 echo from -– you’re not going to –-

5 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, let’s put –

6 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Yeah, maybe further 

7 away. 

8 AUDIENCE: Can you hear me?

9 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (unintelligible).

10 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: I can hear you but -–

11 thank you. If you could, spell your name.

12 MS. PRADOS: Ana, A-n-a, Prados, 

13 P-r-a-d-o-s.

14 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. 

15 MS. PRADOS: So thank you for the 

16 opportunity to comment today. My name is Dr. Ana 

17 Prados. I work at the University of Maryland, 

18 Baltimore County. I am a scientist with 

19 expertise in air quality and climate change, and 

20 I also have expertise in environmental policy.

21 So some of what I am going to talk about 

22 today, I bring with me based on a study which I 
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1 have here -– I brought some copies for you. I 

2 conducted it at the University of Maryland, 

3 College Park, School of Public Policy. It was 

4 part of a course. I did a project in the spring 

5 of 2013, and the name of the project was 

6 “Greenhouse Gas Reduction in Maryland: New State7 Level Strategies for Changing Times”. And it is 

8 very much in line with what you did. It outlines 

9 state level strategies and other issues, and I 

10 will just touch on a couple of them.

11 However, what I’m talking about today are 

12 just my own opinions, not the opinions of 

13 University of Maryland, Baltimore County, where I 

14 work or the University of Maryland, College Park.

15 So I personally fully support this rule. 

16 I applaud your efforts despite the continued 

17 opposition by what is an alarming percentage of 

18 members of Congress. I also think the rule could 

19 be a little more aggressive and include 

20 additional elements that will serve both to the 

21 goals of reducing greenhouse gases while giving 

22 states more flexibility. 
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1 I think the rule could be closer to a 

2 40 percent reduction in 2030, and that’s what the 

3 science tells is the direction we should move in. 

4 So there is three things that kind of –- I had 

5 identified as potential amendments.

6 One of them is to include other large 

7 sources. And essentially, we have a timeline 

8 that phases in other large sources in addition to 

9 the electrical generating sector. California is 

10 already doing this. In fact, I believe it has 

11 worked for them. It’s an economy-wide cap and 

12 trade system that they have. And partly because 

13 I think that as the U.S. moves away from coal, 

14 these other sources including natural gas are 

15 going to become a larger part of the fraction of 

16 the overall greenhouse gas from coal.

17 I think that the rule should deemphasize 

18 or eliminate the second and third building blocks 

19 only as they pertain to carbon sequestration and 

20 new natural gas. Carbon sequestration is not -–

21 as she also communicated, is really -- it’s not 

22 established. It’s not safe. It’s not an 
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1 alternative. Natural gas is, after all, another 

2 greenhouse gas. And, you know, something that I 

3 can rely on in my work, and I do – it’s kind of a 

4 long story, and I won’t give you all the details. 

5 I work with a lot of state agencies. I monitor 

6 air pollution. We hear all of this concern all 

7 of the time now about natural gas pollution. So 

8 it seems to me that that rule really needs to be 

9 deemphasized and its impacts on other pollutants, 

10 as you all know. 

11 So I think it makes more sense for states 

12 to focus their investments on energy efficiency 

13 and energy renewables as opposed to other fossil 

14 fuels. 

15 And finally, and this is something that 

16 is discussed in this study, something that EPA 

17 might consider is developing a framework that 

18 encourages linkage -– encourages linking --

19 linkage among existing cap and trade systems. I 

20 think this would actually give states more 

21 flexibility. And as you know, California has 

22 already linked their cap and trade to Quebec. 
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1 And actually Resources for the Future did a study 

2 on how California could link theirs to RGGI. I 

3 didn’t see mention of this in the Rule, but I 

4 could have missed it. So it’s something to look 

5 at, outlined in the RGGI system. So that’s what 

6 I have. 

7 Thanks.

8 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. Thank you 

9 very much. Okay. We will take a five-minute 

10 break. 

11 (Brief recess.)

12 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Is something wrong with 

13 the microphone?

14 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I’m getting a buzz, 

15 so we’ll see.

16 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: We will see how it goes.

17 We are back again. The next couple of 

18 folks, Linda Silversmith and Tyson Slocum.

19 You’re first Linda. If you could, spell 

20 your name and give your testimony.

21 MS. SILVERSMITH: Linda Silversmith. I 

22 represent the League of Women Voters of Maryland.
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1 I am Linda Silversmith of Rockville, 

2 Maryland, and I’m representing the League of 

3 Women Voters of Maryland and the League of Women 

4 Voters of Montgomery County Maryland. 

5 I have been a member of the League in 

6 four different states for 44 years, and I worked 

7 with the first administrator of the EPA and also 

8 a person who awoke to the need for actively

9 caring about the Earth and the environment on 

10 Earth Day, 1970. And this timing came after a 

11 vacation that included driving at age 10 on his 

12 family vacation through the factory caused 

13 visible smog formerly found in Pittsburgh and 

14 after seeing photos of an earlier smoggy London, 

15 England. But before I developed asthma, while my 

16 two siblings developed other immunological 

17 diseases, and before I learned key elements about 

18 ecology as a science while preparing to teach 

19 college biology classes to non-science majors, 

20 that included an environmental component.

21 Regarding the urgency. In retrospect, it 

22 is sad that the United States did not have the 
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1 foresight 30 years ago to schedule the steps 

2 being proposed in the 2014 Clean Power Plan. 

3 While members of the League of Women Voters in 

4 Maryland are definitely pleased that the EPA has 

5 stepped forward with this proposal, I speak on 

6 their behalf today to urge this Administration 

7 (1) to strengthen the plan further and (2) to 

8 begin to spell out how best to set a price on 

9 carbon emissions.

10 Indeed, in June 2014 by an overwhelming 

11 vote, League members at our biennial national 

12 convention passed a resolution supporting a price 

13 on carbon emissions that will increase in stages 

14 as part of an overall program to improve energy 

15 efficiency and to replace fossil fuels with 

16 renewable energy fast enough to avoid serious 

17 damage to the climate system. This resolution is 

18 in line with 15 years of League advocacy for 

19 reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

20 Power plants, our single largest source, 

21 account for 40 percent of the carbon pollution in 

22 the United States, the type of invisible 
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1 pollution that is causing and accelerating 

2 climate change. For the sake of our children, 

3 our children’s children and future generations, 

4 we need to act now. And the United States needs 

5 to become a leader in fighting and ameliorating 

6 climate change instead of being the leader in the 

7 highest energy use per person in the world.

8 It may take a special kind of courage by 

9 both industrialists and citizens to put aside 

10 short-term profits and convenience for long-term 

11 good. Scientific calculations show that we 

12 cannot afford to use up all of the remaining 

13 fossil fuel supplies on Earth without endangering 

14 Earth’s livability. The third National Climate 

15 Assessment report, which was released in May of 

16 2014, stresses that the United States is already 

17 undergoing damages from climate change such as 

18 disappearing shorelines and decreases in the 

19 numbers of certain plants and animal species, but 

20 not as dramatic as the impending disappearance of 

21 whole Pacific islands, but scary nonetheless.

22 For those who have seen the movie Chasing Ice, it 
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1 also provides some dramatic examples of climate 

2 change.

3 Moving to economics. While early 

4 economists did not recognize that the prices of 

5 goods and services need to include the costs of 

6 using up resources in the manufacturing process 

7 and the costs of cleaning up any pollution caused 

8 by their use. Surely it is time for the human 

9 world to include both of these factors in 

10 pricing. There are studies that show that the 

11 resulting price changes will be much easier to 

12 cope with than the rising costs of not addressing 

13 climate change which have been addressed in the 

14 past couple of days. 

15 To any company representatives here today 

16 or reading this statement letter, I hope you will 

17 look around and see how a number of large 

18 companies such as General Mills and National Grid 

19 have already announced plans to actively address 

20 climate change. I hope that other businesses 

21 will rapidly join in, and that all of us will 

22 focus as much as possible on choices that 
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1 increase energy efficiency and use of renewable 

2 energy resources. The more we can do now to help 

3 mitigate climate change, the less we will have to 

4 do to adapt to climate change. 

5 Thank you.

6 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Linda. 

7 MR. SLOCUM: Hi, I’m Tyson Slocum, 

8 T-y-s-o-n, S-l-o-c-u-m. I direct Public 

9 Citizen’s Energy and Climate Program. 

10 For those unfamiliar with my organization, we are 

11 one of America’s largest consumer advocacy 

12 groups. We get our funding from our more than 

13 350,000 consumers and members across the United 

14 States.

15 So first thing, I just wanted to applaud 

16 the EPA officials present here today in 

17 conducting hearings in D.C. and elsewhere, we 

18 thank you for your service. I know it’s probably 

19 been a very long day, and so I’m very 

20 appreciative of your effort to solicit feedback 

21 from the general public.

22 So as a consumer group, we are very 
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1 interested in the details of this rule because a 

2 lot has been said about them. There is a group, 

3 I’m sure you’re familiar with it. It’s called 

4 the Chamber of Commerce. It’s a very large 

5 industry trade association representing many 

6 multi-national corporations. And it made a 

7 number of claims which I am very interested in, 

8 mainly that the very modest rules proffered by 

9 the EPA are going to result in crippling price 

10 increases. 

11 It’s always curious when a group like the 

12 Chamber speaks on behalf of consumers because I 

13 am a consumer advocate. And it turns out that 

14 their claims are absolutly false. We have looked 

15 at their research papers, and they are -– they 

16 have no basis in fact. They are running what 

17 essentially amounts to a political campaign to 

18 discuss EPA rules, not on the merits of their 

19 policies, not on the details of the proposed 

20 regulation, but rather in terms of the next 

21 electoral cycle and how demonizing the rules 

22 might gain an advantage to one particular party 
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1 or another. 

2 And that’s unfortunate. I welcome robust 

3 debate that’s based on facts. And it’s 

4 unfortunate that very powerful interests are 

5 failing to do that, and I think that folks ought 

6 to hold them accountable for doing it. We are 

7 trying to do as much. 

8 So as a consumer group, when we look at 

9 these rules they are remarkably modest. 

10 Essentially, what your rules are doing is putting 

11 into regulation what is essentially already 

12 happening in the status quo. We are seeing a 

13 shift in –- away from coal and towards 

14 alternative fuels, not because of EPA regulations 

15 but because of market fundamentals, because of 

16 increasing costs for coal, because the declining 

17 cost of renewables, because of flat line in 

18 consumption.

19 A generation ago, the United States was 

20 growing the electric power sector in terms of 

21 demand by 7 percent a year. We are now growing 

22 at .7 percent a year. We are seeing essentially 
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1 a flat-lining demand growth and that offers ample 

2 opportunities for renewable energy and continued 

3 energy efficiency to meet the emission targets as 

4 laid out in your clean energy plan. 

5 So despite the fact that the charges that 

6 this rule is not going to result in higher prices 

7 for consumers, I do think that there are certain 

8 things, speaking as a consumer advocacy group, 

9 that the EPA could demand that states adopt as 

10 part of the compliance plan to incorporate 

11 expanded consumer protections in the electricity 

12 sector. That would not only protect working 

13 families, but also help blunt these absurd 

14 attacks from folks like the Chamber of Commerce. 

15 So one of the things that the EPA could 

16 do is require that states in their implementation 

17 plans adopt what’s known as intervener funding 

18 programs at the Public Utility Commission. One 

19 such program exists in the State of California. 

20 This is where the Public Utility Commission 

21 compensates public interest groups that have 

22 demonstrated that they are operating on behalf of 
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1 consumers. It compensates them for the costs 

2 associated with getting attorneys and expert 

3 witnesses before the Public Utility Commission.

4 Sometimes the compliance programs that 

5 are going to be adopted by various state PUCs are 

6 going to be technical in nature, and it would be 

7 helpful to have intervener funding and it would 

8 be very good to have the EPA requiring that as 

9 part of the implementation requirements.

10 In addition, requiring that there be 

11 stakeholder processes that are binding in nature 

12 such as what we have in some of the regional 

13 greenhouse gas emission of states, where --

14 Massachusetts for example -- the state has a 

15 binding stakeholder process that includes 

16 consumer groups, it includes utilities, it 

17 includes state officials, it includes 

18 environmental groups. These stakeholder programs 

19 together work out the carrying out of the energy 

20 efficiency and renewable energy mandates. And 

21 that ensures that all stakeholders have an equal 

22 seat at the table. Note that I said that 
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1 utilities should be there as well as consumer 

2 groups because we like everyone, all 

3 stakeholders, to participate.

4 We need to also remember that electricity 

5 is not some sort of elective utility service, but 

6 a human -– an essential human rights service. 

7 And so we have got to ensure that standards with 

8 universal service are prioritized, particularly 

9 for very low-income consumers.

10 Energy efficiency standards should be 

11 cost effective and demonstrate specific and 

12 verifiable energy savings. Rooftop solar 

13 requirements should be equitable. And the 

14 6 percent credit for existing nuclear power 

15 plants should not be allowed to qualify for the 

16 state implementation plans because of the severe 

17 environmental and risks associated with nuclear 

18 power. 

19 Thank you very much for your time.

20 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. Thank you 

21 both. 

22 Next we have Jaydee Hanson and Erik 
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1 Backus -– Bekus (phonetic). Erik -– is there an 

2 Erik?

3 Go ahead Jaydee. If you can, spell your 

4 name for the court reporter.

5 Actually, if you don’t mind, if you could 

6 to submit these to the --

7 MR. HANSON: I did.

8 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Oh, you already did. 

9 These are extra? 

10 MR. HANSON: Yeah.

11 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Oh, thank you.

12 MR. HANSON: I am Jaydee Hanson; I’m a 

13 Secretary of a multi-national group called 

14 Caretakers for God’s Creation. And it’s a 

15 network of the United Methodists. We are honored 

16 to be able to comment here. 

17 As Christians, we are taught by Jesus 

18 that we are to love God and to love our neighbor. 

19 Today, loving God means caring for God’s creation 

20 so that our neighbors around the world can 

21 survive in a global-warming world.

22 As I mentioned, we’re a network of United 
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1 Methodists around the world. We do not speak for 

2 the United Methodist Church, but are faithful 

3 United Methodists informed by our Church’s 

4 Discipline and our Church’s Resolutions as they 

5 speak to Caring for God’s Creation.

6 Our Bishops from around the world five 

7 years ago issued a pastoral letter called, “God’s 

8 Renewed Creation.” This letter declared that the 

9 United States has a special responsibility as it 

10 consumes more than its fair share of resources 

11 and generates the most waste including carbon 

12 dioxide pollution. The bishops from the U.S. 

13 committed themselves to working to reduce this 

14 pollution, including urging the U.S. Government 

15 to do better.

16 Caretakers of God’s Creation include both 

17 lay and clergy members inspired by the bishop’s 

18 letter who are working to push our churches and 

19 the government to do a better job. The United 

20 Methodist Church has long been concerned about 

21 climate change. I think we’re the first 

22 protestant denomination that said it in its 
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1 official papers, and the first time we said we 

2 needed to burn less coal in large-scale power 

3 plants was in 1980. And at the same time, we 

4 warned that it should not replace it with nuclear 

5 power. Most recently -- our church has a 

6 congress sort of like the U.S. Congress -– it’s 

7 mostly a federation of people from every state 

8 with common references.

9 We added to our Church’s law book what we 

10 call The Discipline. It said, “We strongly 

11 advocate for the priority of the development of 

12 renewable energies. The deposits of carbon-based 

13 resources are limited and their continuous use 

14 accelerates global warming. The use of nuclear 

15 power is no solution for avoiding CO2 emissions.”

16 Not surprisingly, we agree with EPA 

17 Commissioner Gina McCarthy who said in announcing 

18 the new coal-fired power plant rules. “We have a 

19 moral obligation to act on climate.” But we are 

20 concerned that the EPA is proposing too little. 

21 The new rule does not require the nearly one 

22 thousand coal-fired power plants to actually 
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1 clean up their pollution, or their own ship, 

2 since power plants don’t conduct themselves. 

3 More than 60 percent of these power 

4 plants are over 40 years old. Instead, the EPA 

5 rule would have states develop their own plans 

6 that would not be implemented until at least 

7 2016.

8 The states could meet the emission 

9 targets for power plants in many ways, including 

10 upgrading old inefficient plants, switching to 

11 natural gas, improving energy efficiency 

12 elsewhere in the state and promoting renewable 

13 energy.

14 Unfortunately, the draft rule also 

15 declares for the first time that nuclear power is 

16 a core element of the nation’s climate policy. 

17 It pushes states to preserve old nuclear power 

18 plants, expand existing plants and subsidize 

19 nuclear power.

20 These pro-nuclear provisions could 

21 undermine the growth of renewable energy in these 

22 states and help keep open old polluting coal-
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1 fired power plants.

2 The Virginia Chapter of Caretakers for 

3 God’s Creation has actively opposed the 

4 development of uranium mining in Virginia. The 

5 inclusion of nuclear power in the EPA rule will 

6 only serve to encourage those who want to open a 

7 huge uranium mine in Virginia. Unlike the arid 

8 Western United States, tailing ponds in Virginia 

9 are expected to fill rapidly with rain water and 

10 will likely overflow in Virginia and North 

11 Carolina waters. I think that light means I’m 

12 getting to the end of my time. Okay. 

13 I will go to the last section of 

14 environmental justice. By sidestepping controls 

15 on individual polluting power plants, the EPA 

16 draft continues to allow those old aging plants 

17 to pollute more than they would with real 

18 controls on each plant. 

19 According to a joint study by the Harvard 

20 School of Public Health and the Syracuse 

21 University, “Carbon pollutions standards for 

22 existing power plants would not only help 
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1 confront the challenge of global climate change, 

2 they would offer substantial and regional 

3 benefits by reducing power plant emissions of 

4 these major power plants by up to 27 percent.

5 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: I’m sorry to interrupt. 

6 We have your testimony, and are mindful of the 

7 time.

8 MR. HANSON: Well, thank you very much. 

9 In short, we wish the EPA draft targeted the most 

10 polluting power plants in a more direct way, 

11 promoting renewable energy even more strongly and 

12 left nuclear power off the table entirely.

13 Nonetheless, we greatly appreciate the 

14 EPA for tackling the most wrenching environmental 

15 problem of our age, namely the huge contribution 

16 fossil fuel fired power plants make to our 

17 nations CO2 pollution. 

18 Thank you very much.

19 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you 

20 MR. HANSON: Bless you in this difficult 

21 work.

22 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you. Eric Backus.
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1 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Erik Backus, is there?

2 MR. BACKUS: Yes, sir. 

3 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: If you could spell your 

4 name for the court reporter too, Erik.

5 MR. BACKUS: E-r-i-k Backus, Erik, first 

6 name, last name Backus, B as in boy, a-c-k-u-s.

7 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

8 MR. BACKUS: Good evening ladies and 

9 gentlemen. Again, I am Erik Backus and I reside 

10 in Northern Virginia. This evening I am 

11 representing Lutherans Restoring Creation which 

12 is a grassroots organization supporting the 

13 Evangelical Lutheran Church of America to support 

14 creation energies.

15 As you hear my testimony man wears many 

16 hats, but when it comes to issues of the world, 

17 it's goodness and if our world will take care of 

18 it and all we need to do is speak out through our 

19 faith and to take action.

20 As a professional engineer and contrary 

21 to popular opinion I hold faith both in our 

22 creator as well as science to explain the 
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1 creation and the environment. 

2 Let me begin then with a dialogue that 

3 happened many years ago between an expert in the 

4 law. And Jesus in the tenth chapter of Luke, 

5 Jesus asked, "What is written in the law? How do 

6 you read it? Answer, "Love the Lord with all 

7 your hearts, with all your soul, with all your 

8 strength, and with all your mind; and love your 

9 neighbor as yourself. You answered correctly was 

10 his reply; do this, and you will live." This is 

11 the golden rule as the Christians have it. 

12 And we know considering all the major 

13 religions of the world and schools of philosophy 

14 the vast majority hold this precise tenet within 

15 them, that we as humanity need these rules and 

16 heed them and we are called to better serve our 

17 neighbor and to obey the order of creation and 

18 we're able to better live in harmony. 

19 So as a boy in upstate New York I can 

20 speak to the impact on this climate firsthand. I 

21 lived in New York. A village that resided right 

22 next to us with the most polluted body of water 
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1 in the world, Onondaga Lake. 

2 Syracuse, New York, called the Salt City, 

3 because of the salt that is shipped worldwide 

4 from the ports next to this lake. But by the 

5 time I was growing up there in the '80s, you 

6 couldn't swim in the lake, you couldn't fish in 

7 the lake, you could barely go in while touching 

8 the water and the stink that rolled off that lake 

9 every summer, because of decades of dumping raw 

10 sewages out of Syracuse's sewer system and 

11 dumping the salty waste deposits every day at the 

12 edge of the lake.

13 Folks on the lake -- so the people around 

14 it then, but even more so today, it was one of 

15 the most popular industries and all the jobs that 

16 they had are no longer there, just so you know, 

17 leaving about $450 million in costs to implement 

18 our clean up of the lake today.

19 I remember this firsthand experience and 

20 our failure to guard the earth leads to 

21 devastating and costly consequences. Today we 

22 are considering the EPA's proposed rule that 
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1 affects existing power plants in the United 

2 States. Give us a chance to stem the tide of 

3 emission of carbon, just like Onondaga Lake, 

4 where perpetual waste program management has had 

5 integral and tangible results. Our insatiable 

6 need for power is having effects on our lives. 

7 Sea levels are rising, ice shelves are breaking 

8 off, and more and more people are affected by 

9 severe weather and right here at home. 

10 As former Treasury Secretaries Ann 

11 Paulson and Robert Rubin had said, we cannot 

12 afford to repeat the failures of the past, we 

13 must learn from these costly errors in solving 

14 the problems at hand.

15 This proposed clean power plan represents 

16 just that, a chance to do better. 

17 In closing, I want to go back to a place 

18 in my personal life. Two weeks ago I was with a 

19 group of faith leaders talking to U.S. Senator 

20 Mark Warner about the proposed rule. And what he 

21 said struck me. He said we must also think about 

22 the plight and challenges for the people in 
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1 places like southwest Virginia. To that point I 

2 agreed with him. An Army Reservist who served in 

3 Iraq, doing everything he can to help people in 

4 the third Congressional District in West 

5 Virginia. He ran and lost his primary, but had a 

6 huge impact. Why? Because he started his 

7 campaign not on the desires of the coal 

8 companies, but on the coal workers. He saw the 

9 need to give them opportunities and options for 

10 their lives and move them from the coal of the 

11 past to the future. And he made his case, and he 

12 was a person who takes risks and makes keen 

13 investments in new technologies to see a new 

14 future.

15 To me this is all about why we are here 

16 and to be an American, we have proven time and 

17 time again that these are people who quote the 

18 Gospels and are interested in a better world. 

19 This rule, the clean power plan sets before us 

20 such a path that will start innovation and 

21 American energy ingenuity. I pray for this rule 

22 to go forward as we come together for a more 
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1 sustainable planet for each of us.

2 Thank you. 

3 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Erik.

4 Next Sophie Golone and Eugene Trisko. 

5 And if you could spell your name for the --

6 you're up first. If you can spell your name for 

7 the court reporter.

8 MS. GOLONE: S-o-p-h-i-e. Last name, G9 o-l-o-n-e. 

10 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

11 MS. GOLONE: Hello. My name is Sophie 

12 Golone and I'm a legislative assistant at 

13 Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism which 

14 advocates on behalf of the Union Reformed Judaism 

15 and denominations across America and welcoming a 

16 million reformed Jews.

17 I thank you for the opportunity to speak 

18 today as a part of the EPA's clean power plan 

19 proposal to reduce carbon pollution from existing 

20 power plants. 

21 These proposed federal standards which 

22 target a key source of carbon pollution mark an 
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1 historic step in our nation's commitment to 

2 protecting public health and averting climate 

3 change. 

4 While climate change is an immense 

5 environmental, political, and economic challenge 

6 for the reformed Jewish community, climate change 

7 is a world and spiritual challenge as well. 

8 Biblical commentary reminds us that one 

9 generation goes, another comes, but the earth 

10 remains the same forever.

11 We understand that as stewards of the 

12 environment we have responsibility to seek higher 

13 plans that future generations will have clean, 

14 breathable air, and a stable climate. 

15 Climate change has been linked to some of 

16 the most devastating weather events in recent

17 memory and has contributed to millions of deaths. 

18 As reformed Jews steeped in words that 

19 collectively reminds us of our responsibility to 

20 the earth and to one another, it is incumbent 

21 upon us to respond to these disasters without 

22 delay and to work to prevent future climate 
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1 disasters as well. That is why when Hurricane 

2 Sandy struck the Northeast almost two years ago, 

3 the Union for Reformed Judaism swiftly 

4 established a relief fund, 80 members from our 

5 congregation and others contributed food, 

6 shelter, and clothing. 

7 We continue to feed those who have 

8 suffered more recent events in the United States 

9 and abroad. But we must also act to prevent 

10 extreme weather events. As you well know, 

11 hurricanes, droughts, wildfires and other 

12 weather-related events are made more severe by 

13 rising temperatures. And as concluded in the 

14 2013 Hygiene Report, it is extremely likely that 

15 human influence has been the dominant cause of 

16 the recently observed global warming.

17 We appreciate that these proposed 

18 standards address the heart of our nation’s 

19 carbon problem by targeting power plants, the 

20 country's largest source of carbon dioxide 

21 emissions.

22 These reductions will lead to immense 
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1 environmental and public health benefits and 

2 carbon pollution which leads to increases in 

3 respiratory illness, heart attacks, and future 

4 deaths. Moreover, communities of color, low5 income communities, children and older adults are 

6 disproportionately overburdened by the impacts of 

7 carbon pollution. 

8 The recent national climate assessment 

9 indicated that climate change is no longer a 

10 distant threat for the future, but an issue that 

11 we are already experiencing in the present.

12 The average temperature in the United 

13 States has increased by .3 degrees to .9 degrees 

14 Fahrenheit since 1895 and most of this increase 

15 has occurred since 1970. While a degree or two 

16 rise in temperature might seem insignificant in 

17 daily weather report, we know the tremendous and 

18 detrimental impact increasing global temperatures 

19 have on health and safety of the communities in 

20 the United States and worldwide.

21 If we do not take the necessary steps to 

22 deter climate change now, temperatures are 
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1 projected to rise another two degrees to four 

2 degrees Fahrenheit in the next few decades. 

3 We appreciate that the flexibility of 

4 this proposal recognizes that states, cities, and 

5 businesses across the country are already taking 

6 steps to reduce emissions, to establish measures 

7 to increase energy efficiency and transition to 

8 clean energy. 

9 This clean power plan works with and 

10 builds on those efforts to accommodate the 

11 diverse needs of each state that invests in the 

12 overall options. 

13 It is our responsibility to protect our 

14 children and future generations from the impacts 

15 of climate change. It is our responsibility to 

16 help prevent people in every region of this 

17 country from ever again knowing the devastation 

18 caused by wildfires, droughts, flooding, and 

19 hurricanes. It is our responsibility to cut 

20 carbon pollution and adopt strong carbon 

21 pollution standards for existing power plants 

22 under this Agency's clean power plan proposal.
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1 The need for reduced emissions is ever 

2 more urgent, we need to act now. 

3 Thank you for taking this vital step 

4 towards a cleaner and healthier environment. We 

5 look forward to support the work of the EPA and 

6 the Obama administration to fully implement 

7 strict carbon pollution standards for existing 

8 power plants to promote public health and combat 

9 climate change. Thank you.

10 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Sophie.

11 MR. TRISKO: My name is Eugene M. Trisko, 

12 E-u-g-e-n-e, M, as in Michael, Trisko, T as in 

13 Tom, r-i-s-k-o.

14 I'm an attorney in private practice. I 

15 represented the United Mine Workers of America in 

16 Clean Air Act matters for more than 30 years. 

17 I'm here because of the UMWA’S concern 

18 with the loss of jobs due to the EPA's proposed 

19 clean power plan. The reductions in CO2 

20 emissions of the clean power plan is equivalent 

21 to a 30 percent cut from 2005 emissions. The 

22 power plant rule is known throughout the states 
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1 that already have reduced the CO2 emissions due 

2 to more uses such as increased natural gas use 

3 and retirement of our coal plants. 

4 The majority of states would have smaller 

5 initial reduction targets. The reductions were 

6 calculated with the true 2005 baseline. Many 

7 states will have no reductions at all due to 

8 their recent emission cutbacks. The short time 

9 set by EPA's proposed rules, states will require 

10 more than one year to prepare steps. Many states 

11 require legislative approval, a process itself 

12 that can take a year or more. 

13 We recommend that the interim target be 

14 designed to allow greater flexibility. A course 

15 such as used and regional assist or a reasonable 

16 further progress requirement would afford greater 

17 flexibility than mathematical averaging process 

18 tied to an interim target. 

19 EPA projects that the state option will 

20 reduce U.S. coal production for electric 

21 generation by 27 percent or 228 million tons in 

22 2020. Appalachian production is projected to 
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1 decline by 35 percent from 140 to 91 million 

2 tons. Even larger declines are projected in the 

3 U.S.

4 EPA forecasts the global cost of the loss 

5 of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal generated capacity 

6 by 2020. These retirements were in addition to 

7 92 gigawatts total capacity shutdown between 2012 

8 and 2020 due in large part to compliance with the 

9 2012 record. 

10 Losing 30 gigawatts in base load capacity 

11 nearly 40 percent of the nation's coal generation 

12 fleet in 2012 raises serious concerns about 

13 future reliability of other types of plants.

14 The reliability analysis contained in 

15 EPA's technical support document is inaccurate. 

16 It fails to account for supply assets and relies 

17 on overly optimistic assumptions about demand 

18 reductions associated with the rules of energy 

19 efficiency that will comply.

20 Our assessment of the general impact of 

21 the clean power plan indicates a potential loss 

22 of 52,000 permanent UMWA jobs by 2020 in the 
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1 utility, rail, and coal centers due to power 

2 plant retirements and a loss of 167,000 total 

3 throughout UMWA jobs.

4 These direct job losses are all high5 paying jobs particularly in the rural communities 

6 without opportunities for comparable employment. 

7 These impacts do not consider any of the plant 

8 closures and the general losses expected over the 

9 next few years due to the natural plant practice 

10 or the impacts of higher electricity and natural 

11 gas prices on other industries. 

12 EPA's proposals for major expansion of 

13 state energy efficiency and renewable energy 

14 programs interfere with the traditional state 

15 authority to manage the plan and appear to be 

16 well beyond the agency's authority under the 

17 Clean Air Act.

18 State legislatures have set renewable 

19 energy goals based on balancing local economic 

20 and environmental considerations now and find 

21 that those judgments had been second guessed by 

22 EPA.
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1 Congress itself is not able to agree on 

2 national renewable energy targets. The EPA 

3 focused the rule only on actions to reducing 

4 emissions within plant programs. The proposed 6 

5 percent efficiency improvement for existing 

6 plants is a step in the right direction, but we 

7 are doubtful that these investments will really 

8 be made given the rule's negative impact on coal 

9 generation and NSR currently under consideration. 

10 Finally, we do not know the extent to 

11 which other nations, particularly large and 

12 developing countries, will be going to commit to 

13 the true global program of greenhouse gas 

14 reductions. Our actions will have negligible 

15 climate impacts if the world is using more coal 

16 and other fossil fuels everyday.

17 All indications from the United Nations 

18 plan for the process point to extreme difficulty 

19 in reaching agreement in Paris next year that it 

20 will lead to decreases in emissions from major 

21 developing nations sufficient to meet the goals 

22 of the 1992 Clean Water Act Convention. Thank 
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1 you.

2 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Eugene.

3 Next we have Jim Mylie, I hope I didn't 

4 get that too wrong, Jim.

5 MR. WYLE: Wiley, is that what you said?

6 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Welie? If you can spell 

7 your name for the reporter. Thank you. 

8 MR. WEYLIE: My name is Jim Weylie, W-e9 y-l-i-e. I'm from West Chester, Pennsylvania. 

10 Thank you for this opportunity to testify 

11 at the clean power plan public hearing. I'd like 

12 to try to speak on behalf of the millions of 

13 plant and animal species that cannot speak for 

14 themselves but are nevertheless threatened by the 

15 effects of climate change; threatened to the 

16 point of species extinction. The Nature 

17 Conservancy predicts a full 25 percent of earth's 

18 species will be extinct by 2050, unable to adapt 

19 or migrate to suitable environments. 

20 If changes in the global temperatures 

21 that we are seeing today were occurring over the 

22 span of millions of years, as has happened many 
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1 times in earth's history, we would call it 

2 natural and the effects on plant and animal 

3 species would be natural. However, when these 

4 rapid changes in temperature are causing drastic 

5 changes in habitat, migration patterns, ocean 

6 acidification, vegetation, insect infestations 

7 that increasingly over northern latitudes and 

8 above all species extinctions on land and the 

9 oceans over the course of centuries, not decades 

10 all thanks to human pollution from the combustion 

11 of fossil fuels, everyone must take 

12 responsibility. 

13 I feel responsibility as a member of a 

14 generation of people that has monitored, billed, 

15 and burned our way to economic prosperity. In 

16 the late '60s there was a serious of issues with 

17 water and fossil fuels, a large contributor to 

18 water pollution was paper mills. The paper 

19 companies knew how to reduce or even eliminate 

20 the pollution they were responsible for, but none 

21 wanted to be the first to install these pollution 

22 controls. They didn't want to lose a competitive 
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1 edge with other paper companies. 

2 But when the Clean Water Act was passed 

3 in 1972, all the paper companies -- all the paper 

4 companies had to install the same pollution 

5 controls. There was no competitive disadvantage. 

6 The price of paper products to the consumer rose 

7 about three or four percent and the sky did not 

8 fall. Energy companies must be held responsible 

9 for the pollution that their industry emits. 

10 Broad and fair antipollution standards create a 

11 level playing field and encourage energy 

12 suppliers to diversify and invest in clean energy 

13 research and development. 

14 Having a long-term road map for pollution 

15 and reductions is key to allowing the energy 

16 industry to find the best solutions for all 

17 energy markets. The demand for energy is not 

18 going to significantly drop. Therefore, the need 

19 for energy-related jobs is going to be strong 

20 especially in the transition to new technologies.

21 Let's move forward together to a clean 

22 cooler future for all of the planet. Thank you.
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1 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you very much, 

2 Jim.

3 Next up, Fernando Cazares and Brenda 

4 Mueller.

5 You can both spell your name for the 

6 court reporter.

7 MR. CAZARES: Good evening, folks, 

8 Fernando C-a-z, as zebra, a-r-e-s. So thank you 

9 for allowing me to provide my comments. 

10 As an uncle of a nine-year-old and seven11 year-old, we have a role to improve the world by 

12 the time they're 18.

13 We have a moral obligation to do what we 

14 can to protect my nieces and to protect our 

15 children and all future generations from the 

16 harmful effects of climate change by investing in 

17 the cost to reduce carbon pollution. In the U.S. 

18 power plants already account for 40 percent of 

19 the carbon pollution and we know the effect on 

20 climate change. We are not doing enough to 

21 protect our children's health and my niece’s 

22 health. Our communities have a lot at stake in 
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1 requiring plants to finally cut carbon pollution. 

2 The Hispanic community on average is the biggest 

3 growing population in southwest region, 

4 California, New Mexico, and our population is 

5 also growing in North and South Carolina, Georgia 

6 and Virginia.

7 According to the statistics, one out of 

8 every two Latinos -- Latinos are two times more 

9 likely to die from asthma than any other disease 

10 according to the Office of Health in the U.S. 

11 Department of Health and Human Services.

12 Over the past year I have had the 

13 opportunity to recruit from businesses, medical, 

14 and public health, academia, and the community 

15 and civic centers and their own forces and prove 

16 the ability of Latinos to achieve the American 

17 dream which is inextricably linked with the 

18 actions that we take today to cut carbon 

19 pollution. Organizations and businesses that 

20 they represent understand that climate change is 

21 already a part of our communities and the 

22 businesses they run by intensifying the effects 
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1 of drought in the southwest, for example, 

2 increasing the potential cause of flooding and 

3 strengthening tropical storms like Super Storm 

4 Sandy. 

5 Dr. Arios (Ph), the head of the National 

6 Medical Association understands the harmful 

7 effects of dirty air to the children, pregnant 

8 women according to the Centers for Disease 

9 Control. 

10 Further, according to the Small Business 

11 Administration, an estimated 25 percent of 

12 businesses do not open after a major storm. 

13 Climate change has created conditions that 

14 increase the intensity of a storm.

15 Mr. Pei (Ph) the head of the Illinois 

16 Chamber of Commerce understands not only the 

17 effect of climate change on small businesses, but 

18 also the investment in energy efficiency and 

19 clean energy. That is also one of the reasons why 

20 the National Black Latino Council and of one of 

21 our partners is hosting the first ever black, 

22 black, brown, and green summit this August in San 
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1 Juan, Puerto Rico.

2 The council understands the tremendous 

3 opportunities for minority business owners to tap 

4 into special needs professional support and 

5 energy needs. 

6 The Latino community overwhelmingly 

7 supports your efforts to finally curb the 

8 unlimited carbon emissions that pollute the air 

9 that we breathe.

10 Last year we released a national poll 

11 that showed nine out of ten Latinos support the 

12 government, support the EPA taking action to 

13 block the threat of climate change. And eight 

14 out of ten Latinos support the government cutting 

15 carbon pollution that causes climate change. 

16 So I sit here before you as an uncle, and 

17 a future father, and also as a concerned citizen 

18 to support the EPA. We are counting on you to 

19 set a clear path for a change in carbon emissions 

20 from power plants and look firmly towards steam 

21 implementation. 

22 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Fernando.
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1 MS. MULLER: Thank you for the 

2 opportunity to testify today. My name is Brenda 

3 Muller, M-u-l-l-e-r. 

4 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you.

5 MS. MULLER: I want to thank the EPA for 

6 action on carbon pollution from existing power 

7 plant under Section 111(d) of the Act. 

8 First of all, thank you for your 

9 leadership. 

10 Secondly, states should increase the 

11 standards for renewable energy and efficiency. 

12 This is the cleanest and most cost-effective way 

13 and the use of natural gas and renewable energy.

14 And thirdly, to be sure that the 

15 communities are engaged throughout the process 

16 and work with the communities as they transition 

17 to a clean energy economy. 

18 Thank you for your efforts and thanks for 

19 the opportunity to testify here today.

20 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you for coming.

21 We'll take a recess. There's no other 

22 testimonies that we have at this time. I'll 
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1 check to see if we will resume later. But we'll 

2 be here for a little bit longer in case someone 

3 comes later on. Thanks for coming, everybody. 

4 (Brief recess taken at 7:35 p.m.)

5 (Record resumes at 7:40 p.m.) 

6 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: We've got what may be 

7 the last two people. But, like I said, we'll 

8 stick around a little later too in case there is 

9 anybody else.

10 We have Bob Cleaves and Jacqueline 

11 Patterson.

12 So, Bob, you're on first. If you could 

13 spell your name for the court reporter?

14 MR. CLEAVES: Sure. Thank you.

15 My name is Robert Cleaves, C-l-e-a-v-e-s, 

16 and I serve as President of the Biomass Power 

17 Association. 

18 BPA is a national voice for energy 

19 derived from using agricultural byproducts. Our 

20 members do business in more than 20 states and 

21 employ approximately 14,000 jobs in rural 

22 communities. Communities that are still a part 
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1 of the recession, our employment is sometimes 20 

2 percent and a large percent of communities are on 

3 some form of state or local assistance. We’re 

4 working with biomass energy. It's one of the 

5 more important sources of energy that nobody 

6 knows about. We take the lowest value materials 

7 like paper or saw products. Products, by the way 

8 with stored carbon and we replace the carbon in 

9 products like steel and concrete. We find a home 

10 for that product by converting them to 

11 electricity. We also use things -- add 

12 materials, wood and the like.

13 If we didn't exist, that low value 

14 material which is piled up becomes fuel for 

15 forest fires that are increasingly the new normal 

16 for a warmer climate. 

17 So we don't just displace fossil energy, 

18 we solve a waste problem. Biomass power is 

19 recognized in virtually every state as renewable 

20 and it's recognized for its carbon benefits as 

21 well as California's carbon laws. It's high time 

22 that EPA raises the benefits of this energy and 
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1 they can do so in the context of Section 111(d). 

2 We were gratified to be able to draft a 

3 statement for the Agency and proudly speaking for 

4 burning biomass for our fuel for energy recovery 

5 in view of climate benefits as compared to 

6 burning conventional fuels. And we agree with 

7 EPA that states should define a clear path for 

8 considering biomass as a way of eliminating CO2

9 emissions. 

10 We are all waiting for EPA's completion 

11 to provide a framework that’s commenced three 

12 years ago. We need also a rule that is 

13 equivalent in support, simple in its 

14 implementation and science-based.

15 This is how important this issue has 

16 become. As a nation we are increasingly looking 

17 to resources like wind and solar. While each are 

18 important, they also need a diverse source of 

19 base renewable energy and this is where 

20 technologies for biomass, hydro, or waste energy 

21 play a perfectly important role. The problems 

22 that our member companies are increasingly 
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1 challenged with, to make investments of biomass, 

2 should be resolved.

3 The promise of bioenergy is enormous from 

4 CHP systems on college campuses to small 

5 industrial sites to coal conversions to steam 

6 plants like ones that exist in Seattle and St. 

7 Paul. Whether you believe DOE or concerned 

8 scientists or the Rocky Mountain Institute, all 

9 of these entities can be expanded and are 

10 significant and sustainable and to realize its 

11 potential and also account for carbon benefits of 

12 the existing biomass we need EPA to consider 

13 biomass as a part of the solution by sending a 

14 message to states to include biomass in RPS as an 

15 important mitigation strategy. 

16 Thank you for your time and we look 

17 forward to submitting written comments on this 

18 rule. 

19 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Bill.

20 Jacqueline?

21 MS. PATTERSON: So my name is Jackie 

22 Patterson. In February of 2011 my father began 
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1 to complain of a cough which worsened over six 

2 months until he was homebound and tethered to an 

3 oxygen machine. He was severely winded just from 

4 walking from the living room to the kitchen to 

5 get a glass of water. Dad's diagnosis was 

6 pulmonary fibrosis. My father never smoked a day 

7 in his life. His doctor stated that the scar 

8 tissue in his lungs was likely due to past 

9 exposure to environmental toxins from his work or 

10 otherwise. 

11 Dad spent 40 years residing within ten 

12 miles of the Fiskin Cooperative Coal Plants in 

13 Chicago. We laid my father to rest on September 

14 12 of 2011.

15 How many more people must be buried 

16 before we are granted equal protection under the 

17 law?

18 Approximately 68 percent of African 

19 Americans live within 30 miles of a coal plant. 

20 The impact is clear in the rates of respiratory 

21 illnesses in African Americans. Even though we 

22 have lower rates of smoking, we are more likely 
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1 to die of lung disease. Nationwide African 

2 American children are twice as likely to die of 

3 asthma and three times more likely to be admitted 

4 to hospital for asthma attacks.

5 We also see higher asthma rates within 

6 Latino American and Native American populations 

7 who are also disproportionately exposed to coal 

8 pollution. 

9 Carbon may not directly cause these 

10 health conditions, but it creates what scientists 

11 call domes that trap, concentrate, and intensify 

12 the other toxins we breathe. With the mercury 

13 arsenic, lead, dioxins and other pollutants that 

14 come from coal plants and communities nationwide, 

15 these domes are in effect creating lethal gas 

16 chambers for communities that are host to these 

17 facilities.

18 At the same time carbon dioxide is the 

19 number one driver of climate change and these 

20 plants are the leading source of carbon dioxide. 

21 Again, climate change affects us all, but 

22 its effects are felt hardest by communities and 
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1 people who are politically, economically, 

2 physically, and socially vulnerable.

3 When I did hurricane relief work after 

4 Katrina and Rita, the throngs of folks who walked 

5 through the door of the disaster recovery center 

6 were largely African American and low income. 

7 I also met scores of people with hearing 

8 impairments, with no qualified interpreter to 

9 help them navigate the system. 

10 I encountered people with HIV and AIDS 

11 who went weeks without access to their life 

12 preserving drugs. I met women who encountered 

13 sexual assault in the aftermath of a disaster. I 

14 met hundreds of people only escaping with their 

15 lives.

16 And the scientists say that Katrina, 

17 Rita, Sandy and more are only the tip of the 

18 iceberg. 

19 Growing up on the south side of Chicago I 

20 lived in a food desert, like so many communities 

21 of color and low-income communities. This means 

22 we had better access to Doritos or Cheetos than 
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1 broccoli or strawberries. We already see how 

2 this plays out for communities who are suffering 

3 from high rates of obesity as well as hunger and 

4 all of the health conditions that result from 

5 poor diet such as diabetes, heart disease, high 

6 blood pressure, et cetera. 

7 Affordable access to nutritious foods 

8 will only lessen as climate change affects crops. 

9 In recent years we've seen farmers in Illinois, 

10 Iowa, Mississippi and beyond lose crops both from 

11 flood and drought. And, again, scientists say 

12 we've only begun to see these impacts.

13 I visited coastal communities from 

14 Florida to Louisiana to North Carolina to New 

15 York, some of whom are already experiencing 

16 coastal erosion and several of whom are already 

17 facing displacement in the next 20 years due to 

18 sea level rise and the storm surge. 

19 The cost of inaction on carbon pollution 

20 is the health, livelihood, culture, economic and 

21 social wellbeing of communities worldwide with 

22 vulnerable communities being hit first and worst. 
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1 Therefore, we need strong carbon 

2 pollution standards to slow the path of 

3 devastation on which we are recklessly traveling. 

4 Strong for us means that we aren't steering the 

5 ship from one disaster to another by myopically 

6 shifting to false solutions.

7 Even if costly clean coal technologies 

8 were proven to effectively capture carbon, that 

9 wouldn't help the 76,000 coal miners who have 

10 died of black lung disease since 1968 or the 

11 folks who are drinking lead and selenium-laced 

12 waters contaminated by coal ash.

13 Shifting to fracking continues to emit 

14 carbon from venting and flaring, has been known 

15 to contaminate aquifers with its mysterious 

16 cocktail of toxins and may even contribute to the 

17 increase in seismic activity that is causing 

18 earth plates from Nebraska to Ohio and beyond.

19 The folks near the Fukushima Daiichi 

20 plant would certainly have a cautionary tale 

21 about increasing our reliance on nuclear energy, 

22 particularly given that a number of America's 
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1 nuclear reactors are built on earthquake fault 

2 lines. 

3 We must establish aggressive targets for 

4 pollution reduction and significantly increase 

5 our focus and action on energy efficiency and 

6 clean energy. The National Renewable Energy 

7 Laboratory has found that we have vast amounts of 

8 solar, wind, and geothermal potential. Some of 

9 which is already being successfully harnessed 

10 creating new jobs. That's where we need to focus 

11 investments as we shift from harmful coal-based 

12 energy production processes. 

13 Finally, we must ensure that each state's 

14 development of implementation plans is done 

15 inclusively so that equity-based input is heeded 

16 and all stakeholders are heard, particularly 

17 communities that are most impacted by coal 

18 pollution directly as well as indirectly through 

19 climate change.

20 Thank you so much.

21 MR. TSIRIGOTIS: Thank you, Jackie.

22 Thank you, everyone. We don't have 
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1 anybody else scheduled. We'll stay here until 

2 eight o'clock in case somebody else does come. 

3 But at this point, there's nobody else scheduled.

4 (Whereupon, at 8:00 p.m., the Clean Power 

5 Plan public meeting was adjourned.)

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