U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001

40–863 PDF 2008

FULL COMMITTEE HEARING ON 

THE ROLE OF GREEN TECHNOLOGIES 

IN SPURRING ECONOMIC GROWTH 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF 

REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

JULY 10, 2008 

Serial Number 110-104 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

NYDIA M. VELA ́ ZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina 

CHARLES GONZALEZ, Texas 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York 

MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii 

STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

MICHAEL DAY, Majority Staff Director 

ADAM MINEHARDT, Deputy Staff Director 

TIM SLATTERY, Chief Counsel 

KEVIN FITZPATRICK, Minority Staff Director 

STANDING SUBCOMMITTEES 

Subcommittee on Finance and Tax 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois, Chairwoman 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida, Ranking 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

Subcommittee on Contracting and Technology 

BRUCE BRALEY, IOWA, Chairman 

HENRY CUELLAR, Texas 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee, Ranking 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

TODD AKIN, Missouri 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

(II) 

Subcommittee on Regulations, Health Care and Trade 

CHARLES GONZALEZ, Texas, Chairman 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

DAN LIPINSKI, Illinois 

MELISSA BEAN, Illinois 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania 

JOE SESTAK, Pennsylvania 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia, Ranking 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

STEVE KING, Iowa 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma 

VERN BUCHANAN, Florida 

Subcommittee on Rural and Urban Entrepreneurship 

HEATH SHULER, North Carolina, Chairman 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

MICHAEL MICHAUD, Maine 

GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin 

YVETTE CLARKE, New York 

BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana 

HANK JOHNSON, Georgia 

JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska, Ranking 

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Maryland 

MARILYN MUSGRAVE, Colorado 

DAVID DAVIS, Tennessee 

Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight 

JASON ALTMIRE, PENNSYLVANIA, Chairman 

CHARLES GONZALEZ, Texas 

RAUL GRIJALVA, Arizona 

MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking 

LYNN WESTMORELAND, Georgia 

(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Vela ́zquez, Hon. Nydia M. ....................................................................................... 1 

Chabot, Hon. Steve .................................................................................................. 2 

WITNESSES 

Rema, Mr. Randy, President, Reese Electric Inc., North Bend, OR, On Behalf 

of the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA) ............................. 4 

Guiles, Mr. Ellis, Director of Sales & Marketing, TAG Mechanical Systems, 

Inc. On behalf of the Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA) ......... 6 

Wetstone, Mr. Gregory,Sr. Director of Government and Public Affairs, American Wind Energy Association ............................................................................ 8 

Resor, Mr. James, Chief Financial Officer, groSolar, White River Junction, 

VT, On Behalf of the Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA) .................. 11 

Lucke, Ms. Andrea, Vice President of Sales and Design,Robert Lucke 

Homes,Cincinnati, OH. On Behalf of the National Association of Home 

Builders (NAHB) .................................................................................................. 13 

Tindall, Mr. Kevin, Owner, Tindall & Ranson Plumbing, Heating and Air 

Conditioning, Inc.,Princeton, NJ. On Behalf of Plumbing-Heating-CoolingContractors Association (PHCC) ......................................................................... 14 

APPENDIX 

Prepared Statements: 

Vela ́zquez, Hon. Nydia M. ....................................................................................... 30 

Chabot, Hon. Steve .................................................................................................. 32 

Altmire, Hon. Jason ................................................................................................. 34 

Rema, Mr. Randy, President, Reese Electric Inc., North Bend, OR, On Behalf 

of the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA) ............................. 35 

Guiles, Mr. Ellis, Director of Sales & Marketing, TAG Mechanical Systems, 

Inc. On behalf of the Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA) ......... 39 

Wetstone, Mr. Gregory,Sr. Director of Government and Public Affairs, American Wind Energy Association ............................................................................ 47 

Resor, Mr. James, Chief Financial Officer, groSolar, White River Junction, 

VT, On Behalf of the Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA) .................. 51 

Lucke, Ms. Andrea, Vice President of Sales and Design,Robert Lucke 

Homes,Cincinnati, OH. On Behalf of the National Association of Home 

Builders (NAHB) .................................................................................................. 60 

Tindall, Mr. Kevin, Owner, Tindall & Ranson Plumbing, Heating and Air 

Conditioning, Inc.,Princeton, NJ. On Behalf of Plumbing-Heating-CoolingContractors Association (PHCC) ......................................................................... 64 

The National Roofing Contractors Association - For the Record ......................... 73 

(V) 

(1) 

FULL COMMITTEE HEARING ON THE ROLE 

GREEN TECHNOLOGIES IN SPURRING 

ECONOMIC GROWTH 

Thursday, July 10, 2008 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 

1539, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nydia M.Vela ́zquez 

[Chair of the Committee] Presiding. 

Present: Representatives Vela ́zquez, Cuellar, Clarke, Sestak, 

Chabot and Akin. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRWOMAN VELA ́ ZQUEZ 

[The prepared statement of Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. may be 

found in the Appendix on page 30.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Good morning. I call this hearing of the 

Small Business Committee to order for economic recovery. It has 

powered markets and pulled our own financial system out of countless downturns. In the mid-1990s, for example, the dot-com boom 

led the country out of a recession and rejuvenated a struggling 

marketplace. 

Today, as our Nation strains under similar declines, new technologies are once again offering a lifeline. With jobs vanishing, payrolls falling and the cost of living skyrocketing, wind technology 

promises to lift us back up. Once considered an exclusively environmental issue the search for renewable energy has taken on a new 

role—economic stimulus. 

In this morning’s hearing we will discuss the role of a small firm 

in America’s effort to become ecologically aware. We will also explore ways in which ecoconscious entrepreneurs can set business 

back on track and turn the country’s blue collars green. Sustainable industries will drive billions of dollars into the marketplace. 

They will also create hundreds of thousands of new jobs and bolster 

our Nation’s cash-strapped working class. And while efforts to promote efficiency will take innovation and flexibility, our small businesses are up to the challenge. 

Today, entrepreneurs are leading the green revolution. Small 

firms comprise over 90 percent of the renewable and efficiency industries. Already these sectors are galvanizing the workforce. In 

2006, they generated 8 million new positions. And in the near 

term, the wind power industry promises to single-handedly create 

400,000 new jobs. 

2 

These new positions will touch all facets of the workforce. Unlike 

the technical industry, that has created work almost exclusively for 

college graduates, today’s jobs will benefit Ph.D.s and blue collar 

laborers alike. By 2030 as much as 25 percent of American workers, or 40 million jobs, are expected to fall under this green umbrella. 

By creating new positions and driving demand in sectors that already exist, wind technologies can create growth without reinventing the wheel. In other words, workers across the country can 

benefit from a sustainable economy without switching careers. 

In addition to supporting current American commerce, these advances present tremendous potential for trade and investment. 

American entrepreneurs hold the lion’s share of green assets, 

which are now globally sought-after commodities; indeed, every 

world market has a need for these goods and services. If American 

entrepreneurs can fill this need, they stand to reap billions, possibly trillions, of dollars in export revenues. At present, analysts 

value that alternative fuels market at $1 trillion. 

Investors recognize this tremendous profit potential and are 

clambering to capitalize on it. The same venture capital firms that 

backed the dot-com boom are now powering wind technologies. Already, these firms are pouring billions of dollars into industries like 

solar power; and as investors increasingly support green technology, the benefits are diffused throughout the entire marketplace. 

Innovation has brought us to the threshold of an economic revolution. Just at the tech boom transformed the American marketplace in the 1990s, green technologies can strengthen today’s system. 

It is rare for a country to have the chance to do something both 

financially responsible and environmentally sound. Today, we have 

that chance, and we must ensure that the window of opportunity 

stays open. In doing, so we can look to our small businesses who 

are propelling our Nation’s emerging wind economy. 

I want to thank all the witnesses in advance for their testimony. 

The Committee is pleased they can join us this morning, and we 

look forward to their insights on this very important issue. 

With that, I now yield to Ranking Member Chabot for his opening statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF MR. CHABOT 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Chabot may be found in the Appendix on page 32.] 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and good morning 

everyone. 

We are here to examine the role of green technologies and spurring economic growth. And I commend the chairwoman for calling 

this hearing and look forward to hearing the testimony of this very 

distinguished panel that we have here this morning. 

Before we begin, I would like to personally thank Ms. Andrea 

Lucke for making the trip all the way from Cincinnati today, and 

I will be formally introducing her here shortly. 

Energy is the lifeblood of the economy. U.S. economic prosperity 

is closely tied to the availability of reliable and affordable supplies 

of energy. It is not just the United States that is going to need 

3 

more energy in the coming years; our traditional energy supplies 

will be increasingly strained by a dramatic growth in global demand. Today’s topic not only has far-reaching applications for our 

economy, but our future energy needs as well. 

Great strides have been made in developing alternative fuel 

sources with a large amount of attention being given to renewable 

fuels. Wind and solar power also offer great promise in the quest 

for alternative resources. We have talked about ethanol, although 

there have been challenges there. Biodiesel. There are many 

sources that we do need to consider. I am certain that further research into alternative energy sources will yield new technology 

and techniques for producing energy that most of us here today in 

this room probably can’t even fathom at this point in time. 

The industries that produce this green technology are relatively 

new and are still evolving. Small businesses with their new ideas 

and willingness to take risks to innovate will be at the forefront of 

these industries. 

I look forward to working with the Chair to find ways to help 

spur growth in these exciting new small businesses. Unlike some 

others on Capitol Hill, I firmly believe that this search for new energy sources should not be a zero-sum game, which is why I believe 

exploring these new energy production and conservation technologies is important. 

Our economy is driven by energy, and we must explore ways to 

meet our energy needs. That means looking for ways to increase 

production of everything we need, including oil, coal and nuclear 

capabilities in addition to these new methods. Neither must we neglect the current reality that without dependable, reliable and 

home-grown fossil fuels our economy will continue to falter. 

While looking at the future of energy independence, we have to 

make certain the Federal Government is doing all it can to provide 

the fuel our current economy needs to grow. Simply put we must 

balance research initiatives and incentives into renewable fuel 

technologies that will eventually replace our current reliance on 

fossil fuels while ensuring we have an abundant and affordable 

source of energy right now. 

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the major energy bills we 

have considered in this Congress have achieved this balance. These 

bills create no new energy sources to speak of and, if anything, 

make fossil-fueled energy more expensive, which in turn will make 

us even more dependent on foreign sources. 

These new energy technologies that will be discussed here today 

offer great promise to the American economy now and in the future, but we must also be able to maintain our current energy production while fostering growth in these exciting new fields. 

Again, Madam Chair, I appreciate your calling this hearing and 

look forward to hearing the testimony from our very esteemed 

panel here this morning. And I yield back my time. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

And now it is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Randy Rema. Mr. 

Rema is president of Reese Electric, Inc. in North Bend, Oregon. 

Reese Electric, established in 1946, offers a full range of services 

in residential, commercial and industrial contracting and design. 

4 

Mr. Rema is testifying on behalf of the National Electrical Contractors Association. NECA represents more than 80,000 U.S. businesses and employs more than 750,000 workers in every State. 

Welcome. And you have 5 minutes to make your statement. 

STATEMENT OF MR. RANDY REMA, PRESIDENT, REESE ELECTRIC INC., ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION 

Mr. REMA. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member Chabot, 

members of the Small Business Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to be here before you today. 

It is an honor and a privilege to appear before the Committee 

that has a tremendous impact on my business, my community and 

the thousands of electrical contractors who operate small businesses just as I do. 

In addition to speaking from the perspective of a small business 

owner on the role of green technologies in spurring economic 

growth, I am also here representing the National Electrical Contractors Association, NECA, an association of which my company is 

a member. NECA is the nationally recognized voice of the $130 billion electrical contracting industry responsible for bringing power 

and communication systems to communities, buildings and homes. 

I am Randy Rema, owner and president of Reese Electric in 

North Bend, Oregon. As Madam Chair said, the business was started in 1946. We became owner in 2004, 4 years ago. We had 22 employees at that time. Today we have 61, and that is partly due to 

green technologies. 

Our company has been recognized as Business of the Year by our 

local Chamber of Commerce, and we ranked number one in the Nation in our category for safety by Associated General Contractors. 

By definition, ′′green building′′ represents a movement to reduce 

the adverse social, economic and environmental effects that existing buildings cause and reduce the impact of new building construction. The ultimate goal of green building is to transform the 

design and construction of buildings to be environmentally responsible, profitable and healthy places to live and work. The focus of 

my testimony will be how green building produces jobs and produces economic stimulus. 

In response to the growing green technologies movement, NECA 

has incorporated green technologies in our training and certification programs, spending $100 million a year on the National 

Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee that is run in conjunction with the IBW. The NJATC has implemented green training programs to ensure that new electricians, as well as the industry’s seasoned journeymen, have the skill sets necessary to operate 

in a green economy. And it is a good thing that NECA has invested 

in this training, as a recent study from the Political Economy Research Institute projected that the electrical contracting industry 

will be the largest single producer of jobs in the specialty contractor trade and will be one of the top five producers of jobs in a 

green economy. 

The reasons for such strong projections for green job growth for 

skilled electricians include, but are not limited to, retrofitting existing buildings with green technologies; developing more energy-effiVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:35 Aug 27, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\42863.TXT RUSS
5 

cient mass transit systems; installing smart meters, which help 

consumers reduce transmission load on the grid; and creating and 

installing maintaining clean, efficient self-sufficient energy systems 

for residential facilities and commercial buildings. Clearly, the role 

of the electrical contractor expands as the green economy grows. 

The electrical contracting industry is well positioned to promote, 

expand and create an industry marketplace where they are not 

only the installers of energy efficient electrical systems for our 

homes and businesses, but to be the providers of the generation 

systems to make us self-sufficient. 

I have experienced firsthand the economic business and environmental benefits of an industry transformation that is taking place 

towards green technologies and clean energy technologies. This 

year, we will have contracts worth roughly $2 million for solar 

panel installations, which represents almost 25 percent of our total 

business for the year. For 2009, I can project an additional $2 million worth of opportunities for those seeking building retrofit and 

other investments in green technologies. For my business, this 

means at least eight positions added, including staff, but eight electricians at family wages, which is very important. 

Just last year I put our belief in green technologies to the test and invested in a system for our building, a $212,000 PV system. 

We had projected a 20-year payback; however, with the tax incentives that were available, that will be quite accelerated and with 

the rising energy costs it is even better. 

Federal tax incentives have helped to offset the substantial capital investment in renewable energy technologies. I understand 

that unless Congress acts, these incentives will expire at the end 

of this year. I believe that would be devastating to the momentum 

that has been built not only by our company, but companies 

throughout this Nation. These incentives have allowed my company 

to improve the energy efficiency of my facility and others throughout our area. 

In conclusion, green technologies provide the tools to build a better country, and our small businesses are laying the foundation for 

a better tomorrow. These technologies are working to transform our 

Nation’s infrastructure and expand ′′green job′′ industries. Only by 

harnessing the power of these technologies and the potential job 

growth they bring are we able to both expand and grow our economy. 

Indeed, the future is green; and for my business, my community, 

my State and our Nation, I believe that means gold. 

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today, not only representing my company, Reese Electric, but also the National Electrical Contractors Association. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Rema. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Rema may be found in the Appendix on page 35.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. And our next witness is Mr. Ellis 

Guiles. 

Mr. Guiles is Director of Sales and Marketing at TAG Mechanical Systems in Syracuse, New York. For 20 years, TAG Mechanical 

Systems has been providing heating and cooling products and servVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:35 Aug 27, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\42863.TXT RUSS
6 

ices to Syracuse businesses and home owners alike. Mr. Guiles is 

here to testify on behalf of the Air Conditioning Contractors of 

America. ACCA has over 4,000 air conditioning contractors. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF MR. EELLIS GUILES, DIRECTOR OF SALES 

AND MARKETING, TAG MECHANICAL SYSTEMS, INC., SYRACUSE, NY. ON BEHALF OF THE AIRCONDITIONING CONTRACTORS OF AMERICA (ACCA) 

Mr. GUILES. Good morning, Madam Chairman. 

Chairwoman Vela ́zquez, Ranking Member Chabot and members 

of the Small Business Committee, thank you for the opportunity to 

provide testimony on the exciting economic growth and job creation 

potential of green technologies in the heating, ventilation, air conditioning, and refrigeration, HVACR, industry. 

My name is Ellis G. Guiles, Jr. and I am the Director of Sales 

and Marketing of TAG Mechanical Systems, a heating, cooling and 

indoor air quality services company that services both residential 

and commercial customers in the Syracuse Metro, New York, area. 

As you noted, I am a member of the Air Conditioning Contractors 

of America, ACCA. I am also a member of the American Society of 

Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers, ASHRAE, 

and the Building Performance Contractors Association of New York 

State. 

I am the author of LEED, Follow or Get Out of the Way, a book 

describing how mechanical contractors can implement green building practices in their businesses to make them more profitable. 

What I hope to demonstrate today is that going green with new 

HVACR equipment can have a positive impact on the bottom line 

for home owners, small businesses and the overall economy. In the 

interest of time I will highlight the most important points of my 

submitted testimony. 

ACCA and its industry partners foresee a wealth of job creation 

in economic development opportunities from the burgeoning green 

movement right here in America, because the majority of residential and commercial HVAC equipment sold in the United States is 

manufactured and warehoused in the United States. Any installation jobs held by contractors cannot be exported. 

At the same time, ACCA members see tremendous possibilities 

in greater energy efficiency through emerging and existing technologies that will lower utility costs, improve indoor air quality, 

create less CO2 and set aside more money for investment. 

The potential for America’s small businesses and the HVAC contractors that service those small businesses for job creation, economic growth and environmental protection are limitless. However, 

in order to turn this potential into reality, Congress needs to provide direction and assistance through tax incentives, increased public awareness, promotion of proper installation and maintenance, 

and code enforcement. 

Increased building efficiency is the low-hanging fruit in the effort 

to reduce energy consumption, promote national security and stimulate the economy because our national inventory of HVACR equipment is old, inefficient and ripe for upgrade. More than half of residential utility bills goes toward heating, cooling and hot water apVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:35 Aug 27, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\42863.TXT RUSS
7 

pliances. Roughly one-third of the energy consumed in commercial 

buildings goes to heating, cooling and ventilation. All told, Americans spend more than $142 billion on space heating and cooling for 

both residential and commercial buildings combined. 

Today’s HVACR equipment is 30 to 50 percent more efficient 

than the installed base. In 2005, 39 percent of the residential central air conditioners and 60 percent of residential heating equipment were more than 10 years old. Since 1990, only 30 percent of 

commercial buildings have had their main heating equipment replaced and only 37 percent have had their main cooling equipment 

replaced. 

In new construction, advanced planning, design techniques and 

a range of highly efficient options means that today’s buildings are 

tighter, use less energy, are more comfortable and are healthier to 

live and work in. 

Realizing a 15 to 20 percent reduction in energy consumed by 

residential commercial buildings, using available technology, is not 

unreasonable. This would result in $28 billion in saved energy expenditures while creating a tremendous number of jobs within the 

HVACR industry as demand for more efficient equipment and its 

installation grows. 

During the last 2 years, my company, TAG Mechanical, has 

worked with Actus Lend Lease as a part of their military housing 

privatization initiative at Fort Drum, New York, installing HVACR 

systems in 845 homes to New York State’s Energy Star criteria. 

Our initial efforts involved right-sizing the HVACR systems and 

then working with Actus Lend Lease to achieve homes which generally have a 30 percent or lower energy usage as compared to a 

comparable code home. This results in lower energy costs for our 

soldiers who live in these homes, improved indoor environments 

and lower greenhouse gas emissions, a win for everybody because 

Actus Lend Lease was concerned about providing a superior product to their military customers. 

TAG Mechanical Systems has been chosen to provide design 

build services for Hope Lake Hotel and Resort, a 150,000-squarefoot facility located 45 miles south of Syracuse, New York, that will 

include a 106-room fractional ownership hotel combined with an indoor water park. The facility is participating in the USGBC LEED 

rating program. 

The original schematic designs for the hotel called for a geothermal heating system; however, cost constraints drove the construction team to look for alternatives. We have decided to install 

the variable refrigerant flow system in the hotel in a large portion 

of the complex. Current design projections indicate this system will 

be 5 to 10 percent more efficient than the geothermal system, will 

cost less to install and provide a higher degree of comfort in indoor 

air quality than the geothermal system. 

The variable refrigerant flow system’s ability to modulate from 

16 to 100 percent capacity allows it to precisely match the heating 

and cooling requirements of the spaces within the building. We 

project the hotel and lodge will obtain at least six points under 

EAc1 criteria of the LEED rating system and will be 28 percent 

more efficient than the baseline building. 

8 

Improved efficiency may be the low-hanging fruit in our Nation’s 

efforts to reduce energy consumption, but not everyone can reach 

that fruit to take advantage of its benefits. In the last 10 years, efficiencies for central air conditioning, heating, heat pumps and furnaces have increased tremendously, both through mandatory regulation and research and development. 

For example, in 2006, the minimum energy efficiency for a residential and like commercial central air conditioning was set by the 

Federal Government to increase by 60 percent. In the 2 years since 

the Department of Energy raised these minimum efficiency standards, equipment manufacturers have seen a 25 percent drop in 

shipments of new central air conditioning and heat pumps. While 

consumers have spent 25 percent more on replacement parts, they 

are choosing to maintain their older, inefficient equipment rather 

than upgrade to new, higher efficiency models. 

Cost is the hurdle to those technologies for home owners and 

small businesses. The higher efficiency products cost more up front 

due to higher equipment costs and installation requirements. However, the initial investment in high-efficiency appliances earns a 

short payback with lower life cycle cost. 

ACCA has advocated for tax incentives to make higher-efficiency 

equipment more attractive to residential and commercial clients. 

We believe these tax incentives assist home owners and building 

owners in making a more informed choice when purchasing new 

equipment. In many cases the incentives help justify the added upfront cost. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I 

would be happy to answer any questions you may have on my testimony later. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Guiles. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Guiles may be found in the Appendix on page 39.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Our next witness is Mr. Gregory 

Wetstone. 

Mr. Wetstone is Senior Director of Government and Public Affairs to the American Wind Energy Association. AWEA promotes 

wind energy as a clean source of electricity for consumers around 

the world, with over 1,500 members, and advocates the association 

is the hub of the wind energy industry. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF GREGORY WETSTONE, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF 

GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, AMERICAN WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION 

Mr. WETSTONE. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman and 

Ranking Member Chabot. 

I am Greg Wetstone, Director of Government and Public Affairs 

at the American Wind Energy Association; and I do want to thank 

you very much for the chance to be with you this morning and to 

talk about the tremendous potential for small business and the tremendous growth already that we have seen as a result of wind energy development here in the United States. 

Most of our 1,500 member companies are, in fact, small businesses. They produce critical wind turbine components like gears 

9 

and bearings and electrical parts. They make composites for blades, 

they work construction as wind turbines are built around the country, and they participate in the shipping and transportation of 

parts in order to get this new energy source in gear. 

This is happening on a surprisingly large scale. Most Americans 

are not aware that wind, which was once a boutique source of electricity, is now a mainstream option for electrical generation. The 

U.S. currently has 18,000 megawatts of wind power already on the 

grid; that is enough for 5 million homes. Three years in a row, 

wind has been second only to natural gas as a source of new electrical capacity, and last year wind power provided 35 percent of all 

the new electrical capacity in the U.S., once again second only to 

gas. That was over 5,200 megawatts of wind power. 

So it is growing at a dramatic scale, and the reason is that the 

U.S. has one of the best wind resources of any nation in the world. 

And when you combine that with rapidly growing electricity demand—and that is what we have here in this country—we see that 

the U.S. is the biggest market in the world for wind energy development. That has meant that the construction and manufacture 

and operation of wind turbines has been a rare bright spot in an 

economy that, overall, has been pretty tough, spurring growth and 

creating jobs to the tune of more than $9 billion last year. 

Since January of 2007, 28 new wind industry manufacturing 

plants have been opened or operated in the United States. And I 

would be surprised—and the States where these are located are 

listed in my written testimony; there are a lot of them, and the list 

grows every week. 

Mr. Chabot, Ohio is a tremendous center of wind industry manufacturing. It is just starting now. The potential there is immense, 

and I would be surprised if there is another sector of the economy 

you can point to that is creating jobs at a faster rate than we are. 

A single wind turbine has 8,000 parts. And a typical turbine 

manufacturing facility is like an auto assembly plant in that it is 

buying component parts from a large number of subsuppliers, typically about 400 subsuppliers for a single turbine manufacturing facility. And that is creating a lot of jobs and helping a lot of small 

businesses that are providing these parts and transporting them. 

Wind turbine manufacturing is also spurring an expansion in demand for other kinds of products and materials. Suppliers for the 

automotive and other heavy equipment industries are now also increasing their production because of wind. So that is steel and concrete providers, foundries, fabricators. These are now providing raw 

materials, metal casting and machining for wind turbines. 

Because, when turbines are so large, there is a tremendous economy of scale in building the domestic manufacturing capability 

here in the U.S., rather than shipping these massive turbines and 

blades long distances, especially at today’s fuel prices, today, about 

half of wind turbine components are made in the U.S. Only 2 years 

ago, that number was 30 percent; and if we could get stable Federal policies, long-term extension of the tax credit, we would see 

that number go up in terms of domestic manufacturing. 

In addition to spurring thousands of green jobs, wind power is 

helping to diversify our power supply, stabilize electricity costs; and 

that is good for any small business. Wind uses no fuel, so the price 

10 

of electricity for wind is not affected by gyrations in global markets 

for oil or natural gas. 

Studies project more than $100 billion in consumer savings from 

a shift to wind power consistent with the renewable energy requirements that were included in the bill that passed the House last 

summer in the national renewable standard; and this recent 

growth could be just the beginning. The Department of Energy has 

projected we could get to 20 percent wind energy. 

There are some barriers. We have to build transition, build manufacturing capability, get stable domestic policies. But there is no 

technological requirement. And that growth would create 500,000 

jobs, and that is just the beginning. 

Twenty percent wind would boost economic development in 

windy rural areas, promote energy security; and if you care about 

global warming, we are talking about effectively taking 140 million 

vehicles off the road by using clean wind energy. 

Now, all this growth over the past several years, and particularly 

last year, has been a phenomenal bump for the economy, but today 

it is at risk because the production tax credit is on the threshold 

of expiration. And every time the PTCs expired—I direct you to the 

chart in our testimony; it has expired three times. Each time it expires, you see a 70 to 90 percent decline in new wind development, 

and that is bad for our economy and it is bad for this country in 

a lot of ways. 

Already we are seeing impacts from the delay in extending the 

credit. Investors want to know, what is the tax policy going to be 

before they put the money down for a new project to go on line next 

year. A study by Navigant Consulting concluded that if the credit 

expires, it will cost us $11 billion in wind energy investment and 

more than 76,000 jobs here in this country. So we need the stability of a long-term extension to promote U.S. manufacture and to 

keep this industry growing. 

There is broad support across the political spectrum for extending the credit, and it is absolutely critical that Congress find a way 

quickly to get through the current impasse and enact a long-term, 

full-value extension of the tax credit; and that would be the starting point for a healthier economy and a cleaner energy future. 

Thank you so much. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Wetstone. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Wetstone may be found in the 

Appendix on page 47.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Our next witness is Mr. James Resor. 

Mr. Resor is Chief Financial Officer of groSolar in White River 

Junction, Vermont; groSolar is the national leader in solar energy, 

leading customers to meet global warming by using solar energy to 

power their home and businesses. 

Mr. Resor is here to testify on behalf of the Solar Energy Industries Association. SEIA is the national trade association for the 

solar industry. 

Welcome. 

11 

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES RESOR, CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER, groSOLAR, ON BEHALF OF THE SOLAR ENERGY INDUSTRIES ASSOCIATION 

Mr. RESOR. Thank you Madam Chair, Ranking Member Chabot, 

other members of the Committee and the staff as well. 

Again, I am Jamie Resor with groSolar. We are an active participant in the solar industry, active in more than 40 States throughout the country, and we focus on the installation of photovoltaic 

systems to generate electricity for homes and businesses. 

Some examples, to put this more in layperson’s terms, are residential homes which are a key part of our market, municipal buildings, schools, stadiums, resorts, multiresidential complex, and agricultural operations. These are just some examples of the kinds of 

customers that we have that are using solar photovoltaic systems 

to generate electricity. 

One thing that is important to keep in mind is that solar—clearly, in the U.S., when people think of solar, they think of California, 

which is natural; that is where about 75 percent of the market is. 

But I think it is important to realize that it is a broader opportunity. 

Our company is based in Vermont. The Northeast, for example, 

is a very important area for solar, partly because electric rates are 

very high; and that is the most important determinant as to where 

solar can make sense at the residential and commercial level. So 

States like New York State, Massachusetts and Connecticut are 

going to be very big growth areas for solar, in addition to California 

and places like that. 

The one thing I wanted to focus on, really, today is, we have 

heard a lot about and I concur there are a lot of environmental 

benefits to wind and solar energy, a lot of these energy efficiency 

steps that we have heard about, in terms of diversified energy supply, reducing energy consumption. And that is all very true. 

In addition, solar has the advantage that it can be a distributed 

source of energy. So it doesn’t need to put pressure on transmission 

lines or other choke points in the distribution grids. In fact, we are 

working with Nstar, a utility in Massachusetts, just for that reason. They have congestion; and they either can spend a lot of 

money to upgrade substations for better distribution or they can 

try to bring about a program which reduces consumption in certain 

parts of their grid and increases the generation of things like solar 

which can be done at the point where you need it instead of a central power station. 

But what I wanted to focus on today is, given the Committee’s 

mandate to really underscore the importance of job creation. 

GroSolar is somewhat of a microcosm of what you are seeing in the 

green economy. In the last 2 years, we have gone from about 25 

employees to approximately 100 employees. We have raised $15 

million of investment capital who see the opportunity to back us. 

We have set up a national platform for our company, whereas we 

were just based in the Northeast a couple of years ago. 

Not only are we a small business, but our customers, that we 

often sell product to and give design assistance, that are the ones 

doing the installation in many States, they are all small businesses. Like Mr. Rema represented, we will work with electrical 

12 

contractors, for example, or plumbers or other construction people 

to actually do the implementation of a solar system. 

So if I look at our customer base, which is, say, 300 to 400, they 

are all small businesses and privately held. So there is very much 

a ripple effect in what this Committee does for this legislation. 

Secondly, even when we do larger commercial projects—for example, we did the a solar hot water system for Fenway Park and 

the Boston Red Sox; we have done other projects for a winery. In 

rather large multi-residential firms, it might be 800 kilowatts to 1 

megawatt in multiple States. 

Again, when you look at our partners who are involved in implementation of these projects, they are all uniformly small businesses. So again there is a very important ripple effect there. 

To cite the same Navigant study that Mr. Wetstone cited for 

wind, very comparable statistics. We are looking at the drop-off 

of—or the loss of $8 billion investment in 2009 alone and approximately 39,000 jobs that would not be created if the ITC for commercial and the personal tax credit for residential are allowed to 

expire. We are already seeing adverse impacts in terms of some of 

our customers because, for businesses, uncertainty is a very difficult thing to manage; so already people are wondering what can 

I expect for 2009. 

As I am talking to customers about the potential for a project 

that can’t get implemented this year, just because it takes some 

time to design it and get it implemented, already we are seeing a 

lot of wondering, what is Congress going to do in terms of the ITC. 

So we think it is paramount that the ITC be extended for the 8- 

year period and that we also have the personal tax credit for residential, and that it be—you know, that the $4,000 cap be eliminated as well to further stimulate job growth. 

Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate your interest 

in these issues. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Resor. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Resor may be found in the Appendix on page 51.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. And now I recognize the ranking member for the purpose of introducing our next witness. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am pleased to introduce Andrea Lucke, who is the Vice President of Sales and Design 

for Robert Lucke Homes, the second oldest home builder in the 

greater Cincinnati area. In this capacity, she directs and manages 

the company’s sales and marketing staff, along with designing, 

pricing and selling. 

Ms. Lucke also serves as the new President of the Home Builders 

Association of Greater Cincinnati where she provides leadership for 

the association of more than 1,300 member-companies, including 

over 26,000 people working in the industry. She is the first woman 

elected President in the 73-year history of the Home Builders Association. 

A native of Cincinnati, Ms. Lucke graduated from Ohio University and received her real estate license from Hunter College, and 

we appreciate your being here this morning, Ms. Lucke, to present 

your testimony. Thank you. 

13 

STATEMENT OF MS. ANDREA LUCKE, VICE PRESIDENT OF 

SALES AND DESIGN, ROBERT LUCKE HOMES, ON BEHALF OF 

THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HOME BUILDERS 

Ms. LUCKE. Chairwoman Vela ́zquez and Ranking Member 

Chabot, distinguished members of the Committee, my name is Andrea Lucke, and I am the 2008 President of the Home Builders Association of Greater Cincinnati and a member of the National Association of Home Builders. I am also a third-generation home builder for Robert Lucke Homes, one of the top 20 largest builders in 

the Cincinnati area; and I appreciate the opportunity to talk with 

you today about the progress home builders across the Nation are 

making incorporating green technologies and design within the residential construction industry. 

NAHB members build more than 80 percent of the Nation’s new 

homes, and more than half of its members are currently incorporating green practices into the development, design and construction of new units. For over a decade, NAHB members have been 

researching and implementing environmentally friendly products 

into new homes. Consumer interest in the latest green design and 

products in the market continues to grow, and builders are excited 

to share the benefits of green construction and energy-efficient features. 

For home builders like myself, customer interest in homes that 

have reduced the carbon footprint has been a bright spot in this 

current down market. In fact, 40 percent of NAHB builders recently reported that it is easier to market green homes when market conditions are less than ideal, and 70 percent of members report they will be at least moderately involved in green building by 

next year. 

In my experience, consumer interest lies in those technologies 

that are both energy efficient and, above all, cost effective. For example, many of my customers in the Cincinnati area have expressed a strong interest in geothermal heat pumps simply because 

of the significant savings associated with this water heating technology. Above all, I have found that increased education at both the 

builder and consumer level is needed for greater awareness of the 

many benefits of building green. 

NAHB recognizes the need to promote green building and innovation in green construction among its members and the public. In 

collaboration with the International Code Council, the first national consensus standard on residential green building in the 

United States will soon be approved by the American National 

Standards Institute, ANSI. The standard includes single-, multifamily construction, remodeling and land development, and is flexible enough to adjust to the specific resource in energy concerns in 

the country’s different climate zones. 

The path to creating an ANSI-certified standard is certainly not 

an easy one, but our industry is motivated to address the country’s 

growing environmental changes in a way that is comprehensive, 

flexible and preserves affordability everywhere. 

In addition to its work with the ICC, NAHB also established a 

national green building program that embodies a consumer education campaign highlighting the benefits of green building, substantially in housing design. Together, the National Green Building 

14 

Standard and program will help home builders continue to drive 

technology and innovation in green design and construction. 

As Congress explores ways to encourage the growth of both green 

technology and the economy, it should look for ways to enhance it 

within the Nation’s Tax Code. The section 45L New Energy Efficient Home Credit is a key incentive in shifting builders towards 

significant energy savings in new home construction. The program, 

which expires at the end of this year, provides for a $2,000 credit 

towards a home builder who constructs a qualified New Energy Efficient Home, certified to achieve a 50 percent reduction in energy 

usage. NAHB has heard from its members that this credit is especially beneficial to small builders who, in many cases, have the 

flexibility to react to individual marketplace references. 

The House did not include an extension of 45L in its Energy Tax 

Extenders package, and it is crucial that leaders in both Chambers 

immediately restore their commitment to extending or making permanent the only Federal incentive to promoting efficiency in new 

construction. 

I also want to quickly highlight the work that NAHB’s workforce 

development arm, the Home Builders Institute, HBI, is doing to 

provide job training standards and opportunities in the green job 

trade. HBI crafted a new job training component that will be based 

on industry standards and will be used by high school and community college job training programs around the country. Through the 

joint efforts of NAHB, HBI and government entities thousands of 

young workers will soon have the opportunity to build a greener 

America. 

This is an important time for the housing industry, and NAHB 

appreciates the Committee’s interest in spurring economic growth 

through green technology and construction. Thank you again for 

the opportunity to testify today. And I look forward to any questions you may have. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Ms. Lucke. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Lucke may be found in the Appendix on page 60.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Our next witness—last but not least, 

Mr. Kevin Tindall—is owner of Tindall & Ranson Plumbing, Heating and Air Conditioning in Princeton, New Jersey. Tindall & 

Ranson was established in 1993 and provides plumbing, heating 

and cooling services. 

Mr. Tindall is here to testify on behalf of the Plumbing-HeatingCooling Contractors Association. PHCC has more than 4,100 contractor members. 

Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF MR. KEVIN TINDALL, OWNER, TINDALL & 

RANSON PLUMBING, HEATING AND AIR CONDITIONING, 

INC., ON BEHALF OF PLUMBING-HEATING-COOLING CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION 

Mr. TINDALL. Thank you, Madam Chair, and distinguished members of the Committee for the opportunity to testify today. 

My name is Kevin Tindall, and I appear before you as a small 

business owner who represents over 4,000 member-companies of 

the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors National Association. 

15 

Members of the association, all of whom are privately owned businesses, cover a broad spectrum of plumbing work, ranging from 

changing washers in residential homes to the most elaborate skyscrapers in the country. 

New green technologies are having a positive impact on our industry in spurring economic growth for plumbing contractors. 

Small businesses in the plumbing industry are at the forefront of 

the effort to develop and utilize innovative technologies which help 

conserve water. 

This year, the PHCC celebrated the 125th anniversary of our association. During this time, the plumbing industry has played a 

crucial role in the economic development and growth of our country 

while ensuring the public’s health. To that end, the green movement and green technologies have and will continue to be an integral part, protecting not only consumers around the company but 

promoting growth of small businesses. 

The emerging water and conservation market has the potential 

to revitalize traditional plumbing businesses. We see green technologies as an opportunity to put our members to work and create 

jobs at a time when the current economic conditions are having a 

dramatic negative effect on households. Green technology is something that is positive for both consumers and small businesses 

alike, while at the same time providing a service for society. The 

green movement and the advancement of green technologies are 

benefiting every aspect of our industry, which is mostly comprised 

of small companies. Not only are plumbing contractors profiting 

from green technologies, but their workers, manufacturers and engineering professionals are also enjoying economic benefits. 

Through a partnership with various stakeholders, PHCC and its 

members are evolving with the green movement. Recently, the 

PHCC joined with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s 

WaterSense Program. This program helps reduce water consumption by creating an easy-to-identify label for water-efficient products that is backed by strict criteria and independent certification. 

The PHCC of California is currently offering a nationwide accredited certification for green plumbers. This program is an innovative way of training that assists plumbers in understanding their 

role in the environment and public health. The organization’s goal 

is to train and deploy a ′′green army′′ of thousands of plumbers to 

promote the benefits of water conservation and the reduction of 

greenhouse gas emissions. 

As part of the plumbing industry, the United Association of 

Plumbers and Pipe Fitters, the union representing thousands of 

plumbers in the U.S., is a driving force in green skills. Furthermore, as a part of the effort to educate consumers, on June 1, 2008, 

the PHCC launched a Summer 2008 Water Conservation Initiative. 

This initiative challenges consumers to make at least one change 

in the way they use water this summer. 

By installing new technology, tremendous amounts of energy can 

be conserved while promoting growth and development of small 

contractors. According to the EPA, toilets account for 30 percent of 

the water used in the home, and America wastes 900 billion gallons 

of water a year by flushing old, inefficient toilets. If every home replaced just one old toilet with a WaterSense-labeled, high-efficiency 

16 

water closet, the water savings would be enough to supply 10 million U.S. households with water for a year while providing opportunities for economic growth for plumbing contractors. 

Plumbing contractors are enjoying tremendous success with the 

evolution of the green movement in which we have been engaged 

for years. The commitment of the plumbing industry to water and 

energy conservation is demonstrated throughout our 125 year history and recently in our national water campaign. 

PHCC feels strongly that we can achieve practical solutions without sacrificing economic growth. In fact, we can promote new technologies which will provide opportunities for the growth of small 

businesses through the use of these new green technologies. 

Thank you again for your time. I am looking forward to any 

questions you may have. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Tindall. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Tindall may be found in the Appendix on page 64.] 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Rema, I would like to address my 

first question to you. If you retrofit existing buildings with new, energy-efficient technology, the savings over time must be large. 

Do you have any data on what the savings will be and over what 

period of time? 

Mr. REMA. Well, personally, from a system that we put on our 

building, that system, the cost was $212,000. It generates about 

$200 worth of electricity per month, so long term, over the life of 

the system, that is pretty substantial. 

From a short-term perspective, without the tax incentives, it is 

almost impossible to do not only for ourselves, but for our customers. So it is very important that the tax incentives, of course, 

be extended. 

But from an energy savings point of view, the carbon offset, our 

system has been in place about 6 months now, we have offset over 

2,400 tons of carbon dioxide by that system’s being in place. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. So let me ask you, how do you think 

we can get more small businesses to retrofit, to going to retrofitting 

the buildings that they own? 

Mr. REMA. By maintaining the incentives to do so and helping 

offset the cost. Over time, costs are starting to come down slowly. 

There are more manufacturing plants going into production. Even 

in our State of Oregon—we have one in Hillsboro, I believe 

groSolar—or is that Solar World? Excuse me. 

Anyway, PV Powered in Bend is making inverters. So in our 

State there are quite a few businesses that really are up and going; 

and they have got a lot of momentum, and we all hate to see that 

fade. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. But also I heard Ms. Lucke talking 

about the importance of educating not just on the tax incentives, 

but we have to educate consumers, and in this case, small businesses. So the government and the Small Business Administration 

could play a role in educating small businesses as consumers, as 

to the role that adopting efficient technologies will bring into their 

businesses. 

Mr. REMA. Absolutely. The benefits. 

17 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Resor, many countries around the 

world are ahead of the U.S. in terms of green electricity generation, 

especially the European countries, European Union countries. 

What do you see as the primary reason that the U.S. is lacking— 

behind in solar as well as other forms of renewable energy production? 

Mr. RESOR. Madam Chair, your point is absolutely right on, because Germany and Japan have had a much bigger solar industry 

than the U.S.; and the main reason is, they have had consistent 

federal support to create the incentives for the manufacturers. And 

also they have what are called ′′feed-in tariffs,′′ so the solar power 

that is generated, the excess is bought at a higher rate. 

In the U.S., we have something that is called ′′net metering,′′ 

which is helpful, where excess power is bought by the utility at 

least at the same price that they would sell it to you. 

So the main lesson is that they have had consistent incentives 

in place that have allowed manufacturers and companies to plan 

ahead. 

Just the earlier point about costs are coming down, the cost of 

the solar module, which is the main piece in the solar PV system, 

those costs are coming down because you are starting to get large 

-scale production. Now, quite frankly, most of that scale has been 

due to demand in Europe and so we are benefiting, but the main 

lesson is that it is consistent federal policies in place. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Mr. Wetstone, sometimes there is a natural reluctance to move 

toward products in the marketplace where there are long-established alternatives. This is true whether it be a new television set 

or a different source of power to heat and cool one’s office or home. 

How has your industry worked to educate consumers about the 

benefits of wind power? 

Mr. WETSTONE. Yes, Madam Chairwoman. And, in fact, we see 

a tremendous growth in demand for wind and solar because consumers are receptive and they are willing to pay more. 

What seems to be the single most important factor right now in 

terms of what is the level of new clean energy we can bring on to 

the grid, particularly for wind—I think it is true for solar as well— 

is the availability of a stable tax policy. We have that now for other 

forms of electrical generation. They are receiving depletion allowances or other forms. 

Permanent tax treatment, for us, it has been year to year. If you 

look at the chart on page 3 in my testimony, you see that in 2000 

when the credit expired, a 93 percent drop; expired again in 2002, 

a 73 percent drop; expired again in 2004, a 77 percent drop—the 

first time we were able to get 3 consecutive years where a credit 

was applicable; and the industry grew hand over fist, you know, 35 

percent of the new electricity last year. 

This year, 2008, we will match 2007; we will have another great 

year. But what is happening now, because we haven’t extended the 

credit, is, we are looking at a situation where 2009 could look like 

these other years where we are taking the momentum out of the 

industry; and for those we want to invest in manufacturing that is 

a big problem. 

18 

They want to know that market is there before they spend the 

money to retool what used to be a gear plan for automaking. And 

the automakers are downsizing and they are looking for markets. 

Do they go out of business or do they reinvest and create another 

product? And they need to know that market is going to be here. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Resor, can you talk to me, to the 

Committee, about what is special about California? 

Mr. RESOR. California has had a good incentive program that has 

really spurred the solar industry there. They do with the sun, but 

more importantly, they had a good incentive program in place that 

has been continuous. Also, they had high electric rates. And those 

are really the two most important things that drive solar. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Guiles, H.R. 6049 that passed out 

of the House included provisions that would allow consumers to receive tax credits for installing certain hot water heaters, heat 

pumps and boilers. 

Can you talk about how these credits incentivize consumers to 

purchase more energy-efficient technologies and what will happen 

if these programs are not extended? 

Mr. GUILES. Most certainly, Madam Chairwoman. 

Actually, what has ended up happening to us is, we had that 2- 

year stretch from January 1, 2006, to December 31, 2007, where 

those tax incentives were in place; and we personally at TAG Mechanical took tremendous opportunities to market those. We found 

that probably 90 percent of the consumers that we dealt with at 

the residential level would choose to go to the higher-efficiency 

equipment because the tax credit allowed them to offset the incremental costs from what would have been standard-efficiency equipment to the high-efficiency. 

So, for them, it became the no-brainer in the equation; and we 

found that probably 90 percent of the time a consumer would say, 

well, if I can get a tax credit, why wouldn’t I do this. So it was a 

very smart, smart thing to do. 

Unfortunately those tax credits lapsed at the end of last year. We 

still market and promote high-efficiency equipment. We find by 

doing a lot of education that a lot of consumers will take advantage 

of that without the tax credit, but our rate of seeing people deciding to go to the uptick has reduced. 

There are now—especially with economic conditions, gas costs 

where they are at, fuel heating costs where they are going to go 

this winter, people are starting to make that balancing act and say, 

do you know what, maybe I can’t quite get there. And if they had 

the incentive, I can guarantee you they would. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. I have other questions for 

the other witnesses, but I will come back on the second round. 

And now I recognize Mr. Chabot. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. Rema, it is my understanding that there are some plans out 

in Oregon to tap the ocean tides out there as a source of energy 

to produce power. 

Could you explain a little bit about that process out in your State 

and, additionally, what problems are being experienced trying to 

implement this new power source? 

19 

Mr. REMA. Well, it is a wonderful power source. Obviously, the 

ocean is always moving. There has been—the technology is there. 

It is being met right now with a little bit of resistance from our 

local fishermen, who have been very hard hit already anyway with 

decreased seasons, decreased stock of fish and also some of the environmental concerns. 

But I think that is a tremendous technology, and I have been 

trying to watch it. And it is moving, but it is moving rather slowly. 

Mr. CHABOT. Are you aware if it is being done anywhere else either in the United States or around the world successfully at this 

point? 

Mr. REMA. I understand there are a couple of systems in New 

York. I believe there is one that is actually in the harbor, which 

harnesses the tidal movement in the channel, not necessarily out 

on the ocean floor. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you. 

Mr. Guiles, you mentioned in your testimony about buildings 

nowadays are tighter and healthier than they have ever been. And 

some years ago that would have been an oxymoron. And I was just 

wondering if you could touch a little bit on the improvements that 

have been made in that area to make that possible. 

Mr. GUILES. Mr. Chabot, we have seen a number of improvements that have occurred over the last, I would say, 5 to 10 years, 

mostly in the realm of code improvements. 

First place, and most efficiently with any building is, you have 

to build a good envelope. The very shell of the building is highly 

important; if you don’t build that well, then we are going to have 

some problems there. 

We always chuckle a little bit in our office. When you go back 

and you think about the energy crunch of the 1970s where people 

coming out of that say, we built really tight houses, and now people 

are getting sick because you can’t breathe in them. We go in and 

we test those houses now and we find out that they are not quite 

as tight as we thought they were. 

So we find that testing is a big, important part of determining 

just where we are with our buildings. 

But improved envelopes is certainly a big component of what has 

been going on. And probably the next major one is where we use 

most of our electricity goes for heating and cooling the buildings 

and improvements in efficiencies, and those technologies have been 

very tremendous over the last 10 to 15 years. Manufacturers 

around the world, and specifically here in the U.S., have sunk billions of dollars into research and development, into technologies 

that are substantially more efficient than they are today. So we 

have seen those areas. 

And then we get into the areas of water conservation and domestic hot water heating. Again, we use a tremendous amount of energy to heat our water in this country; and, again, those technologies have improved substantially as well. So all of that taken 

in combination provides us with opportunities today as we construct new buildings, to make them substantially more efficient 

than the ones that we currently live and work in. 

So there are huge opportunities that exist out there for people to 

tap into just simply reducing the energy that we use. You know, 

20 

a simple 20 percent reduction in electricity and fossil fuel use in 

this country is going to result in tremendous job growth, environmental impact improvements. And do you know what? It is going 

to put less load on the grid. 

All of it is going to be a very positive thing. But a lot of it is not 

going to happen if people don’t have some incentives to kind of 

push them over the edge. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Wetstone, relative to wind power, for some time there were 

some animal rights activists who were concerned about birds, especially, that were being injured or killed. 

Could you give us the latest credible research, what it indicates 

at this point about that whole controversy? 

Mr. WETSTONE. Yes. Actually, the National Academy of Sciences 

has looked at the issue and concluded that wind turbines actually 

are not having any kind of a substantial impact on birds. 

There was a single project that was built in a flyway in California, in Altamont, that was a problem. It was one of the first 

wind projects ever and did have an impact on some important species there. Since then, I think there was a great deal more attention to siting. We are actually participating, our industry, with a 

nonprofit community and pulling together an American Wind Wildlife Institute to address these concerns. 

But the NAS concluded that wind turbines have less than 1/ 

1,000ths of the impact of house cats in terms of impacts on birds, 

and less than 1/10,000ths of buildings—you know, that they just 

simply fly into buildings. 

So it is not something we take lightly, but we do feel like there 

is not a serious impact on birds at this time as long as we are careful in siting. 

And the turbines have been redesigned so that they don’t have 

a trestle crosspiece for the birds to perch on, which was the case 

at Altamont. You know, there are these solid poles now, and the 

blades are much bigger so that it is a little easier; they are not 

these short, rapidly spinning blades. So they can be seen and 

avoided. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Resor, how has the cost-benefit dynamic changed over the 

past few years with respect to solar energy, and how much more 

efficient is the technology nowadays? 

And if you could comment, my State happens to be Ohio, and we 

used to hear that States like Ohio in the Midwest are more challenging when it comes to solar as compared to Arizona, California, 

et cetera. Could you touch on that as well? 

Mr. RESOR. Sure. 

Generally, the cost-benefit is improving because you have got two 

major variables. One is, the cost of the equipment that you need 

for a solar system is coming down. Secondly, electricity rates are 

generally going up. And I think there is a very good study, put out 

recently by the Department of Energy, that looks at the country 

State by State and projects ahead as—I think they used a figure 

of about 4.7 percent per annum increase in electric rates, but that 

will vary by different regions in the country. 

21 

They map out basically how the solar cost is coming down like 

this, utility rates are going up like this, and where that cross point 

occurs—is already occurring in parts of California, a little bit now 

in Connecticut, Massachusetts and other small spots, but if you go 

out 2 or 3 years they cross in many more States because your costof-system prices are going down and your electricity prices are coming up. 

And the third variable, which we don’t have yet available at the 

residential level, is a way to finance the solar installation. The way 

you and I might go to a car dealership and buy a car, you know, 

you just sign some papers, you can buy it on a loan, a commercial 

company like Wal-Mart can install solar on their rooftops because 

they can get 20-, 25-year financing. There is a system set up to do 

that. 

There are now, just beginning, people to look at, how can we do 

that on a residential basis. Unfortunately, with a credit crisis right 

now, people are a bit distracted, kind of trying to protect what they 

have out there as opposed to coming up with innovative products. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Lucke, as you mentioned in your testimony, the most recent 

Tax Extender bill that was voted, at least in the House, did not include the $2,000 tax credit for new homes achieving the 50 percent 

energy savings that was granted in the Energy Policy Act of 2005. 

Could you tell us if there were any reasons that were given to 

your organization by the bill’s authors as to why that particular 

provision was not included? Did you get any feedback or anything 

on that? 

Ms. LUCKE. You know, I didn’t. I am not very familiar with that 

bill. We haven’t, at least in the Cincinnati area, been able to in the 

past—you know, to work with that energy code. It is $8,000 to 

$10,000 on the builder, and at least in the Cincinnati area, it 

hasn’t been very beneficial. So I am not very familiar with that. 

NAHB would probably be able to help you with that. 

Mr. CHABOT. But it is your opinion that including that would be 

very important? 

Ms. LUCKE. Absolutely, because it would only help with, especially a small business owner like myself. 

Mr. CHABOT. As the other tax incentives that were mentioned 

here today, these are all important to the various industries that 

we have talked about? 

Ms. LUCKE. Absolutely. 

Mr. CHABOT. Thank you very much. 

And then finally, Mr. Tindall, with the recent run-up in gas 

prices—and they are over $1 a gallon, as we all know, now, relative 

to—and I know with your industry, plumbing, heating and air conditioning, you have a lot of vans and trucks that are out there, 

traveling all over the place—what impact is that having on the bottom line in your industry, if you know? 

Mr. TINDALL. Well, our gas prices for my company are up 50 percent, and that is with combining crews. You know, we are trying 

to take some measures to offset that problem. 

It is a significant problem. Combine that with commodity prices 

going up, too, and we have been hit from basically every sector. We 

have got the fuel problem; we have got commodity prices going up. 

22 

DuPont recently announced a 20 percent increase. A lot of what 

we deal with are products that are produced with DuPont products 

alone. So it has been a significant problem, and we are forced, as 

I am forced as a company, to increase our prices because—to offset 

that charge. I mean, there is no other way around it. 

Mr. CHABOT. And if I could conclude, just by a quick comment, 

and I would ask for the panel to acknowledge, even if we are using 

wind to provide more energy or solar for more buildings, et cetera, 

the fact is, with your businesses, I am sure you have vehicles and 

personal vehicles that are still getting around. So even if this is 

part of the problem, we still face the problem of a not sufficient energy supply relative to oil to put in our cars at this point, and that 

is something that needs to be dealt with seriously as well. 

Does anyone disagree with that statement? 

Mr. Wetstone. 

Mr. WETSTONE. Well, not disagree, but I would certainly point 

out that there are connections between the electrical world and the 

fuel world. And in particular, I might mention that a long-time 

oilman, T. Boone Pickens, launched a campaign earlier this week 

promoting wind and other renewables with a notion that the percentage of the electricity now generated by natural gas—which is, 

I think, 22 percent—could be provided by renewables and that natural gas used to displace oil in vehicles. 

In other words, you can power vehicles right now—technology is 

there—by natural gas. It is a pretty big change from a long-time 

oilman. And he is saying what we need to do is a crash course to 

expand these kinds of approaches: renewables efficiency, reduce the 

use of natural gas for electricity and, instead, put it in vehicles, 

and that could displace 38 percent of our oil imports, which is pretty substantial mostly. That is as much as we get from the Middle 

East right now and Venezuela combined. 

Also that gives time for plug-in hybrids to develop, and that is 

obviously another technology where we are using electricity instead 

of oil, so these worlds can connect. 

Mr. CHABOT. It is my understanding that Mr. Pickens has invested a pretty fair amount of money in the wind industry. 

Mr. WETSTONE. He has invested in wind and oil. And I imagine 

a lot of other things, I guess. 

Mr. CHABOT. I am sure he has. Thank you very much. I yield 

back my time. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Mr. Sestak. 

Mr. SESTAK. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

If I could follow up what I thought were really good questions by 

the ranking member and this interchange, because I was taken 

also by two things: the importance of getting the production tax 

credit, the ITC, and also the personal income tax credit for the 

solar, and the section 45L allowance continue to maybe increase 

from $2,000. 

But I was taken by what you said earlier. There is this crossover 

point that as prices go up and the cost of solar energy comes down, 

more and more people will be turning to you. But I guess, to his 

point to some degree, we would all like to get that price going up 

to come down because people are hurting out there at the cost of 

23 

energy. And just making you more likable to come to isn’t the only 

goal; it is how to make you less affordable. 

But we didn’t speak much about R&D tax credits therefore. And 

so my first question is how often does a house turn over on average? Someone told me what it was in one hearing. But when you 

own a house, how long do you keep it? 

Ms. LUCKE. Typically about 7 years. 

Mr. SESTAK. Seven years is what I got told also before. 

So to make solar energy to be attractive, there is this more important point, I think: how much you should pay for that house 

with this solar energy, but you have only got a 7-year turnover 

point. 

That is, to me, the more driving factor; and that drives you to, 

what are the best research and development incentives we should 

be aiming for to make solar energy less expensive—not more attractive just because of mass production and stuff, but what is that 

R&D? Is it nanotechnology or what? 

Mr. RESOR. I think right now you can look at the venture capital 

community has invested a lot of different technologies. In my testimony, I summarize a couple of them. 

One is, for example, thin film, which is actually a very exciting 

company based in Toledo, Ohio, called Xunlight, spelled with an XU-N-L-I-G-H-T, which is a representative example for a new form 

of solar that will drive the cost down. 

And they have got, I think, some R&D money from the State of 

Ohio, the University of Toledo and what-not. 

Mr. SESTAK. Any Federal R&D? 

Mr. RESOR. I am not aware of much Federal R&D. 

Mr. SESTAK. Do you have any proposals for Federal R&D? We got 

yours for the tax incentives, but how about R&D, Federal? 

Mr. RESOR. Again, I would defer to my colleagues at the Solar 

Energy Industry Association on that particular point. 

I will point out that extending the ITC, in a sense is triggering 

capital investment that goes in the things you want to end up at. 

So I think—let’s not lose sight of—from a Federal policy perspective, the ITC is basically stimulating more demand and creating 

more certainty, and that is what people in Silicon Valley want to 

see. 

I spent New York yesterday with four sets of investors, and if we 

had an ITC passed in place today, the tenor of our conversation 

would have been more focused on how much money do you want 

to raise and where to deploy it, as opposed to, yes, you have a great 

business, there is an opportunity, but what about the ITC? 

Mr. SESTAK. If I could—on the wind side, you cost, I think, about 

5 cents per kilowatt hour, but the standard for electricity across 

the Nation is 12 or something—1.2 cents or something. What is the 

research and development to get you down? 

Unless my figures are wrong. I mean, tremendous improvement 

from—80 percent reduction since the 1980s and all, but this is even 

more affordable with this crossover point. 

Mr. WETSTONE. We do have a research and development agenda, 

and I would be happy to provide that for the record. I am not too 

knowledgeable on the details. 

24 

But I want to be clear that if you are looking at new electricity— 

which is really where the question is, is bringing something new 

on line—that we are competitive with new gas and new coal at this 

point when you consider the uncertainty about the carbon pricing 

and coal. 

Mr. SESTAK. Your points are well taken. I am just curious, what 

can drive energy overall down—overall? 

Can I ask you one other question? Is your new—there is LEED. 

What is the difference between LEED and this new national standard that NAHB is moving towards? Because—are environmental 

groups also involved in that consortium that is putting this national standard together? 

Ms. LUCKE. There are, I guess, two points. The LEED program 

is pretty expensive. 

Mr. SESTAK. But some people think it is a good marker. 

I am not arguing this way. It might be expensive. 

Ms. LUCKE. The new National Home Builders green building program has had actually a representative from LEED and other organizations to put this program together, which is very helpful. But— 

we actually personally built a LEED home this year, so I am very 

familiar with the LEED process; but it was very expensive. 

And the new National Home Builders program is to help with— 

one, to make it more affordable for both the builder and the buyer 

and not have so many constraints towards what you need to do to 

get the certification. But there are other—you know, this is the national program. Other associations, locally—State and local—are 

also coming up with their own programs as well. 

Mr. SESTAK. Thank you. 

I was just asking because there might be different standards out 

there soon. And who pushes what, and is it environmentally good 

but too expensive, or what is the cost, not quite as good environmentally, I guess that will be a challenge. 

But thank you. I am out of time. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Ms. Clarke. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you, Madam Chair, and ranking member for 

holding this very timely and important hearing today. Small businesses can play an important role. And combating global climate 

change, I think has been demonstrated by a lot of your conversation in testimony this morning. With these developments small 

businesses can and will drive our new and emerging green economy 

which can create new opportunities, good jobs and stronger communities. 

After reading all of the witnesses’ written testimony, I commend 

all of you for recognizing the importance of green technologies and 

how to create job growth in economic development. But let me state 

that I believe that economic development is not truly sustainable 

unless we address the many needs, including the economic and environmental needs of our underserved communities, be they remote 

rural communities or densely populated inner cities which face 

these challenges on a daily basis and where conservation can often 

be illusive for low-income consumers. 

Let me ask if ′′green job′′ training programs were developed as 

a great way to move low-income residents, youth of color, into the 

green economy and, quite frankly, a green way of life, such a proVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:35 Aug 27, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\42863.TXT RUSS
25 

gram could provide low-cost solar system installation to low-income 

home owners and training low-income residents from the community to do the work. 

Mr. Resor, do you believe that small solar energy businesses 

should partner with nonprofits to provide technical training that 

people need to partake in the emerging solar economy? 

Mr. RESOR. Yes, I think there are several opportunities here. For 

example, we are a partner with Habitat for Humanity. We built 

some homes with them for, obviously, their new home owners. 

Another example is, we are working with a real estate developer 

that owns many units of affordable housing, several thousand 

units, and they are trying to lock in a fixed utility price. This is 

in Massachusetts and Connecticut, where rates are escalating. In 

terms of job training, we are going to face a constraint in terms of 

the amount of installers and people that can do the installation. 

Right now, we are not facing that constraint yet, because industry 

is still growing and, quite frankly, the economy is off. So it is easy 

to find that kind. But presumably, when things pick up again, we 

are going to need those kinds of training programs, I think, and 

partner with some of the groups that you mentioned. There is a lot 

of potential for that. 

Ms. CLARKE. Do you believe that a program like this could provide people with practical skills needed for entry levels of the job 

market? 

Mr. RESOR. Yeah. We find in our hiring to date—for example, if 

you look at the installation of a solar system on a home, you typically have a crew of three people. The lead person has to have a 

lot of experience. Quite frankly, the second and third person can 

really learn on the job. So that is an example where there is a fairly reasonable entry for new trainees. 

Ms. CLARKE. And would you say that our educational systems 

are really preparing that next generation of technicians that will 

be required in the new green space that we are creating? 

Mr. RESOR. Well, that is a pretty broad question when you get 

into our overall educational system. 

Ms. CLARKE. Are there skills that you would say are transferable? 

Mr. RESOR. Yeah, I think there are. When I listen to the testimonies of my colleagues here, we partner really with everybody at 

this table in terms of—I mean, less so wind and solar since they 

are more in parallel. But in terms of heating, cooling people, contractors, electricians, plumbers, home builders, very much we share 

a lot of the same resource base in terms of personnel and the kinds 

of training that I think are needed. 

Ms. CLARKE. Mr. Wetstone, would you say that this is applicable 

to your industry as well? 

Mr. WETSTONE. I think it is. I think you see wind development 

more concentrated in rural areas. And there, I think, is a real opportunity—in windy rural areas, both—for folks to provide their 

own power with smaller wind facilities. 

A lot of places where agriculture has been tough, where you are 

looking at what happens in a drought year, what happens when 

the market goes down, where we see farmers who are still able to 

work their land, but they are able to have utility-scale turbines and 

26 

they are getting payments of $3-, $4-, $5-, $6-, $8,000 a year for 

each turbine on their land and getting free electricity to boot. 

Ms. CLARKE. So in those remote areas, remote rural areas, this 

is an opportunity for young people growing up in those areas that 

tend to migrate because of a lack of opportunity to see the green— 

the growth of the green industry as something that perhaps they 

could pursue as a career? 

Mr. WETSTONE. Exactly. And, in fact, a number of our companies 

are supporting training and renewable engineering at local community colleges, because there is a tremendous demand for jobs right 

now in that area, and there is not enough training. 

We have a lot of government support, for example, for training 

nuclear engineers, but it has been a long time since we built a nuclear power plant, and maybe that will happen—I don’t know—but 

meanwhile we are producing those graduates, and our companies 

are finding it difficult to find trained engineers. 

Ms. CLARKE. Thank you both very much. 

Madam Chair, I yield back. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you, Ms. Clarke. 

Mr. Tindall, you spoke about conservation efforts in terms of 

water. Installation of new infrastructure can make a big difference 

in conservation efforts. This includes products like low-flow toilets 

and high-efficiency faucets. 

How accessible are these materials and building techniques to 

small business contractors? 

Mr. TINDALL. Well, the materials are readily accessible. As a 

matter of fact, it came to my attention this week, by one of the national staff members, that one of the primary manufacturers of 

China has gone away from—or is moving towards going away 

from—producing the existing low-flush water closets of 1.6 gallons 

per flush and are going to go solely to the 1.28 gallon technology. 

And that is due to consumer demand. It has hit these manufacturers at a much greater rate than what they ever anticipated, and 

we assume it is because of the high cost of water. The water utility 

rates are going up, and not only when you—water, it is—up to 12 

percent of the Nation’s energy produced, electric energy, goes to 

treating, cleaning or pumping water. 

So if we conserve water by installing these readily available 

products, we can not only save the energy it costs to move the 

water—in California it is 20 percent—we can also save the energy 

it takes to heat the water when it gets into the home if it is a faucet that is using less water. 

These products are readily available. We do feel, as an industry, 

though, that—as the rest of the industries here, that there needs 

to be some kind of a push to the consumer to get them over this 

hurdle of cost in this time, which there hasn’t been in our industry. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. What are you doing, or your industry, 

in making sure that your contractors and their workers can meet 

increasing demand for these products and techniques? 

Mr. TINDALL. Well, as I stated in my testimony, that we had— 

green plumbers is training. 

And we are out—you know, the objective this year is to train 

10,000 existing plumbers in green technologies; and that program 

offers the consumer the option for water conservation. Typically, a 

27 

plumber comes into your home and doesn’t necessarily offer you 

these available technologies. 

Some of them are relatively inexpensive. Changing your aerator 

out on a lavatory faucet from a 1.5-gallon-per-minute flow rate to 

a 0.5-gallon-per-minute flow rate can make a huge difference in 

water consumption in a home, and it is a relatively inexpensive repair. It can be done at the time of the service call. 

So this training process of the existing workforce to retrain them 

to offer the consumer energy/water conservation measures is up 

and running, and to date, I believe they have trained 1,500 people 

and the goal is 10,000 this year. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Mr. Akin. 

Mr. AKIN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

We have got three Committees at the same time; it is kind of 

hard to be at all of them, and so I missed your testimony. But I 

appreciate all of the different things that you are doing to try and 

make things work together here. 

One of the reasons that I tend to be a little bit skeptical, but perhaps aside from the engineering background is, I have seen a lot 

of these environmental efforts that we have made from a government point of view being almost perfectly counterproductive. 

We try to do something like put MTBE in gasoline because it will 

burn a little bit more efficiently, and instead, the MTBE washes 

out of the gasoline into the groundwater and you create more problems than what you wanted. 

And there are a lot of other examples like that. The fact that 

people drive very heavy, big, truck-type cars is partly because of 

the fleet mileages, which we thought was going to make it so people would drive around in smaller, more efficient cars. 

There are a lot of times where we pass legislation, it kind of does 

the opposite. 

I am just curious on the low-volume toilets, is that another one 

of these deals where you say, oh, yeah, you can only do it with half 

a gallon, but then you have to flush it four times or something like 

that? Are we sort of cutting off our nose to spite our face with some 

of these technologies? 

I guess that is a concern that I have, that we make sure that 

things become practically doable before we jump into them too rapidly. 

Mr. TINDALL. Is that something you want me to comment on? 

Mr. AKIN. Yes, if you want. 

Mr. TINDALL. We, as an organization, have the exact same concern. 

As many of you may be aware, in the early 1990s when there 

were Federal mandates to reduce water consumption, part of the 

energy bill, the government required the manufacturers to go from 

the existing 3.5-gallon-per-minute flush water closets to 1.6-gallonper-minute water closets. And as many of you probably had in your 

home, they simply didn’t flush, and the consumer did not have a 

satisfactory experience. 

The plumbing contractors ended up sharing most of the burden 

of that on us because we are the direct contact with the consumer. 

28 

They would come back, you have sold us a product that doesn’t 

work. This process— 

Mr. AKIN. Were you just limiting how fast the water could refill 

the tank or how much the tank actually held? 

Mr. TINDALL. Well, basically all they did with the first generation 

of the 1.6-gallon-a-minute flush toilets was that they just limited 

the amount of water in the tank. There wasn’t really any redesign 

of the existing water closet, so the product didn’t work. 

That has since been worked through, and the new products are 

quite satisfactory. 

This round of product going from the 1.6 down to the 1.28 is a 

different scenario. The manufacturers have driven this. The manufacturers, they want this product out. They think—they have redesigned, reengineered these products, and they believe they work. 

The PHCC, as an organization, is concerned, and we want to 

take a systems approach to this. It doesn’t do a lot of good if we 

can get the waste through the product and then can’t get it out of 

the home, or we can get it to the street and can’t get it to the sewer 

plant, or we get it to the sewer plant and the design of the sewer 

plant is such that the water waste solid mixture is different than 

what it was originally designed for. 

So we 100 percent agree that going forward with new technology 

such as greywater systems—there are rainwater reclamation systems. All these technologies need to be taking a systems approach. 

And we had—the PHCC is involved with the EPA, WaterSense, 

with the Alliance for Water Efficiency, with IATMO, with the I 

Codes. And it is still being worked out as to who is going to end 

up writing the standard. But we believe that the standard ought 

to be fully encompassing of the whole system. 

Mr. AKIN. I appreciate what you are saying here. You answered 

my question exactly. 

We just passed a bill that said—it was a bright idea that Congress came up with that we are going to get rid of light bulbs, 

which is an odd thing because there is a picture of bright ideas 

that has light bulbs. We are going to get rid of light bulbs and we 

are going to go with the mercury type. Well, those have got a big 

advantage. They use a quarter or less of the same energy as an incandescent bulb. 

But they have disadvantages; that is, you break one in your 

home and you have got to call a hazmat team to clean it up for 

you because of the mercury in the bulb. 

In engineering there is always a balance between these things, 

and we have to just be cautious as to how we proceed, it seems, 

to make sure that we don’t get lopsided. 

But, Madam Chair, I didn’t mean to get too far afield from your 

hearing here, but it is a concern that we have to consider all sides 

of the equation. Thank you very much. 

Chairwoman VELA ́ ZQUEZ. Thank you. 

Well, so much is going on in terms of how can we address the 

issue of energy independence in this country and how can we help 

legislatively to move forward an agenda that will green the American economy and create jobs. 

We have a legislative instrument; the House passed H.R. 6049. 

We all heard here how important it is to incentivize a green econVerDate Aug 31 2005 09:35 Aug 27, 2008 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 G:\CLERK SB-LD\HEARINGS\TRANSCRIPTS\42863.TXT RUSS
29 

omy by providing these type of incentives not only for the small 

businesses, but also consumers. We will continue to work in advocating for these extenders and reach a compromise between the 

House and the Senate. 

So I want to thank all of you for being here. I also want to take 

this opportunity to recognize Mr. Rema’s wife and daughter. I believe they are here. And this is their first trip to Washington. So 

welcome. 

To all the witnesses, thank you for your participation. 

I ask unanimous consent that members will have 5 days to submit a statement and supporting materials for the record. Without 

objection, so ordered. 

This hearing is now adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.] 

30 


40863.001
31 


40863.002
32 


40863.003
33 


40863.004
34 


40863.005
35 


40863.006
36 


40863.007
37 


40863.008
38 


40863.009
39 


40863.010
40 


40863.011
41 


40863.012
42 


40863.013
43 


40863.014
44 


40863.015
45 


40863.016
46 


40863.017
47 


40863.018
48 


40863.019
49 


40863.020
50 


40863.021
51 


40863.022
52 


40863.023
53 


40863.024
54 


40863.025
55 


40863.026
56 


40863.027
57 


40863.028
58 


40863.029
59 


40863.030
60 


40863.031
61 


40863.032
62 


40863.033
63 


40863.034
64 


40863.035
65 


40863.036
66 


40863.037
67 


40863.038
68 


40863.039
69 


40863.040
70 


40863.041
71 


40863.042
72 


40863.043
73 


40863.044
74 


40863.045
75 

Æ 


40863.046