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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF 

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# 1JORIGINAL In The Matter Of: SCOTT TICE, Docket No.: FAA-2013-0042 Respondent.

Thursday, June 13, 2013 

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y .......) The TELEPHONIC HEARING before the U.S. ..0 Department of Transportation, Office of Hearings, held via conference call, pursuant to Notice, before Gervel A. Watts, CERT*D, of Capital Reporting Company, and Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, commencing at 11:07 a.m., before U.S. ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE J.E. SULLIVAN

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 On behalf of Complainant: 4 R. BENNETT SARGENT, ESQUIRE 5 Office of the Regional Counsel, ANE-7 6 New England Region 7 Federal Aviation Administration 8 12 New England Executive Park 9 Burlington, Massachusetts 01821 10 ( 781) 238-7058 11 12 On behalf of Respondent: 13 SCOTT TICE (Pro Se) 14 21125 Timberland Road 15 Barronett, Wisconsin 54813-9540 16 scott@ticetech.com 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 Special Agent Julie DeCosta, FAA 19 Andy Orr, Intern 20 Emily Hurvitz, Intern 21 Lisa Harris, Legal Assistant 22



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P R 0 C E E D I N G S THE COURT: We're on the record

### ~n the 3 matter of Scott Tice. This is Docket Number FAA-2013- 4 0042. Today is Thursday, June 13, 2013, and the 5 parties have convened for a 16 Litigation Scheduling 6 teleconference. 7 The FAA is represented by its attorney of 8 record, R. Bennett Sargent. Also present with Mr. 9 Sargent is Special Agent Julie DeCosta, sitting in as 10 an observer. The Respondent, Scott Tice, is 11 representing himself, also appearing by telephone

. 12 Present here at the Office of Hearings are 13 three observers: Law Student, Andy Orr and Emily 14 Hurvitz, who are serving as interns with this office, 15 as well as legal assistant, Lisa Harris. Good morning 16 to you all. 17 As you folks may recall, we last convened ln 18 May of 2013. It was May 16, 2013. We addressed an 19 outstanding motion that has been filed by the FAA to 20 deem allegations admitted. After oral argument was 21 concluded, I issued an oral ruling, which then 22 codified in writing by a May 21, 2013 Order, granting



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1 FAA renewed motion to deem allegation and 2 granting/denying other relief. 3 We are reconvening today to talk about 4 procedures for completing the remaining part of this 5 case, which is the proposed civil penalty of $600. As 6 part of those procedures we need to address a couple 7 of different matters: 8 1. Venue 2. Discovery. 9 3. Exchange of exhibits and witness list, 10 and 4. The type of hearing we want to have on this 11 remaining matter . 12 It might be efficacious at this point if I 13 turn first to Mr. Sargent and talk a little bit with 14 you about what witnesses or documentary evidence you 15 think you would need to present on a prima facie case 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 in support of your proposed penalty and how much time it would take and what, in your opinion, would be the best method for presenting that type of testimony, sir. MR. SARGENT: Sure. Obviously, with the limited issue of sanction remaining ln dispute 

### -- it actually may be beneficial to address one aspect of



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1 your first Order, prior to me getting into that 2 discussion. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. SARGENT: And I'm referring to, it 5 looks like Paragraph 3 of that Order

-- 6 THE COURT: I have it in front of me. 7 MR. SARGENT:

-- which references that 8 the FAA did not seek a prehearing ruling on the issue 9 of sanction. And that's also because we were in the 10 process, and Mr. Tice has requested some information 11 from us, which we interpreted as a discovery request. 12 So we wanted to give him the opportunity to get an 13 answer on that information. 14 Your Honor, the FAA is planning to file a 15 prehearing motion, seeking a ruling on that issue, 16 which, you know, would obviate the need for a hearing 17 on the issue. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't I just address 19 that very quickly. I would agree with you that 20 Paragraph 3 says exactly what you iterated that the 21 "FAA's renewed motion did not seek a prehearing ruling 22 on this issue." And that was absolutely true at the



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1 time that this Order was issued on May 21, 2013. It 2 does not preclude you to file a motion on that issue 3 between now and whatever hearing was set. You're 4 welcome to do that, just as Mr. Tice is welcome to 5 file further motions as well. And we can set up a 6 timeframe for both of you to do that before we 7 conclude today. 8 MR. SARGENT: Okay. Your Honor, the FAA, 9 at this point, would be likely to do that. Now, as 10 far as in the event a hearing were to be held on the 11 issue, again, the FAA believes that it would be fairly 12 limited in time and in scope. We would obviously be 13 introducing evidence with regard to our choice of 14 sanction or the factors that we considered when 15 choosing a sanction ln this matter. 16 As far as witnesses, Agent DeCosta, who lS 17 with me here today, would likely be a witness and 18 potentially any of the applicable TSA or airport 19 personnel that were involved may be called as 20 witnesses for very limited information. But probably 21 unlikely as well. 22 The FAA will be referring, in large part, to



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1 its own Sanction Guidance policy which is in FAA Order 2 2150.3(b), in support of its argument with regard to 3 its choice of sanction. There may be some additional 4 evidence and some statutory material that would be 5 presented as well. But as I said, that information 6 will likely be fairly limited, not too documentary 7 intense. We don't imagine that any type of hearing 8 would last longer than a day. 9 THE COURT: When you say "one day," are you 10 anticipating that you include the respondent's 11 responsive case or simply your prima facie case? 12 MR. SARGENT: We believe that would 13 include the entire case. Obviously we can't speak on 14 behalf of the respondent to the amount of time he 15 would need to put on his case, but I would imagine 16 that with the issue being limited in scope, as we have 17 remaining, that a hearing in this matter shouldn't 18 take longer than a day. Mr. Tice can feel free to 19 dispute that if he wishes. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you this, you 21 had talked in prior materials about venue, and you had 22 proposed at one point, Boston, Massachusetts.



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1 you had a chance to discuss further about the proposed 2 hearing site with Mr. Tice since that time? 3 MR. SARGENT: No. We really have not 4 explored the issue any further. Our limited 5 conversations are pretty encapsulated in the proposed 6 scheduling plan that was filed on May 9, 2013. The 7 FAA suggested that Boston would be the most 8 appropriate site for the hearing because it's the hub, 9 essentially, of the New England Region of the FAA, 10 where all the actual relevant witnesses and evidence 11 is located at this point. We think that would make 12 it, obviously, the most likely site for a hearing. 13 I anticipate that Mr. Tice is going to 14 dispute that and request that the hearing be held 15 closer to his geographical region, but again, the FAA, 16 you know, given the fact that the violation occurred 17 in New England, it's sort of akin to someone who gets 18 a speeding ticket out-of-state. 19 Typically, the state won't bring the hearing 20 to you. If someone chooses to challenge that speeding 21 ticket, they're required to appear in court in the 22 state in which the violation occurred.



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THE COURT: Okay. As I understand it, from 2 looking at the FAA Complaint, the violation actually 3 occurred in Vermont; is that correct? 4 MR. SARGENT: That is correct. It was at 5 Rutland Regional Airport in Vermont; however, while 6 the airport at issue is located in Vermont, our 7 regional office is located just outside of Boston. 8 Agent DeCosta and myself are both located within that 9 office and the evidence that we've gathered is located 10 here as well. 11 However, the FAA may not have any major 12 objection if we hold the hearing in Vermont, if all 13 parties find that necessary. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Let me ask 15 you one other question Mr. Sargent. In terms of 16 discovery, is there any outstanding discovery that 17 your client still needs from Mr. Tice ln order to 18 prepare for hearing? 19 MR. SARGENT: At this point, it doesn't 20 appear that we would likely need any more information 21 from Mr. Tice. Mr. Tice requested a small

-- very 22 limited information from us . At this point, we're



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other information he is going prima facie case. So without to use ln that 3 knowledge it would difficult that we would request any 4 more information, but it is unlikely that we would 5 need any more at this point. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Tice, let 7 me turn to you. I'm going to be asking you the same 8 types of questions that I asked Mr. Sargent. Let's 9 talk first about how many witnesses you think you 10 would call just to talk about the issue of 'the 11 proposed $600 penalty? 12 MR. TICE: None. I won't be calling any 13 witnesses. 14 THE COURT: Would you be, perhaps, calling 15 yourself as a witness? 16 MR. TICE: Again, I apologize for my lack of 17 legal knowledge. I guess I would be my only witness. 18 THE COURT: Let me make sure I understand. 19 I was asking if you might be calling yourself as a 20 witness. Did you just say "Yes?" I wasn't sure. 21 MR. TICE: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Other than yourself, is there



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1 anyone else that you might be considering calling? 2 MR. TICE: I don't have any plans to do so 3 at this time. 4 THE COURT: In terms of discovery, are there 5 any materials that you still need to get from Mr. 6 Sargent about how he his client has calculated the 7 proposed $600 fine? 8 MR. TICE: Well, what I'd like to get from 9 Mr. Sargent and the FAA is the container of fuel that 10 I inadvertently presented be weighed so that we can 11 determine accurately how much fuel it contained. 12 THE COURT: Right. We talked about that at 13 the last teleconference. Do you recall that we 14 discussed that particular request? 

### 15 MR. TICE: I certainly do. 16 THE COURT: And during that discussion it 17 turned out that the container had been thrown away at 18 the airport before you boarded the plane. Do you 19 remember that? 20 MR. TICE: Well, no, I don't think that was 21 the discussion. It wasn't thrown away before I got on 22 the plane, it was confiscated before I boarded the



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It may have been disposed of subsequent to

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for that 4 clarification. It was confiscated before you boarded 5 the plane. I'm basing my next comment on memory. I 6 haven't checked the transcript, but if I recall the 7 conversation on May 16, 2013, there was a statement 8 made that the container was mostly likely then 9 disposed of. I will turn to Mr. Sargent to just 10 double check on that. 11 Mr. Sargent, do you recall that discussion 12 on May 16, 2013? 13 MR. SARGENT: I do, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Could you clarify or repeat what 15 you had said to both Mr. Tice and I about the 16 container? 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. SARGENT: Yes. From us, as far as we're aware, the container had been disposed of by time the FAA was able to begin its investigation. the time the FAA was notified and began its investigation of the incident, it had been disposed of

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Now, the statement from Mr. Tice to Agent 2 DeCosta, regarding the disposal in which

-- I think it 3 was an email that Mr. Tice had sent to Agent DeCosta 4 where he basically said that he had TSA to dispose of 5 the canister and he believed that that is what had in 6 fact occurred. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Tice, let me turn back to 8 you. Does that help clarify for you the conversation 9 we had on May 16, 2013 or does it provide you with 10 some new information that's helpful? 11 MR. TICE: Oh, I'm very clear on the 12 conversation. That's not the issue. My problem is 13 that at the time that I was at the airport, I had 14 absolutely no idea that this was going to result in 15 prosecution. 16 This seems to me to be a completely routine 17 thing where somebody makes a mistake and inadvertently 18 brings on prohibited items, such as a pocketknife or 19 something like that, which would then be confiscated 20 and disposed of. I had no idea this was going to lead 21 22 to prosecution. It seems to me to be completely unfair and



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1 wrong that if there is going to be prosecution, the 2 evidence does not get preserved. I just can't really 3 imagine how that can be allowed to happen. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I've heard you say that 5 you're unhappy with this prosecution. That you think 6 it's wrong. That the evidence was not preserved and 7 that you think that it would have made a difference 8 for your case if the canister had been retained. 9 Would that be a fair summary of what you just said to 10 me? 11 MR. TICE: Well, I'm not sure that it would 12 make a difference in the case because apparently, from 13 what I'm learning, there is no, what I would refer to 14 as a de minimus offense. But still, I think ln 15 reality, ln a rational world, there should be some 16 understanding of what is really dangerous and what is 17 not dangerous and that should be taken into 18 consideration. I mean, it sounds like at this point I 19 have no way of proving the amount of fuel that was in 20 the container. 21 THE COURT: I want to make sure that I'm on 22 the same page as you when you tell me this

. You're



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1 saying, essentially, that it does bother you quite a 2 bit that the container was not retained. 3 MR. TICE: Very much so. Yes. 4 THE COURT: What relief do you want me to 5 give you as a result of this concern? 6 MR. TICE: I don't know what relief you can 7 give me. I'm sorry. I have no expertise ln legal 8 matters. And I continue to believe that this offense 9 is not worthy of prosecution. 10 THE COURT: I've heard you say that. 11 There's no doubt that I understand that that's part of 12 your position. I think I said to you on May 16, 2013, 13 and I'll reiterate it here that your personal belief, 14 notwithstanding your personal belief, the Federal 15 Aviation Administration disagrees and has prosecuted 16 you for this particular violation. 17 MR. TICE: I understand that. I know. And 18 I am participating as best I can. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Very good. As you may 20 recall, when we last convened on May 16, 2013, I 21 22 granted the FAA's motion to deem allegations admitted, which means the violations have been proved and the



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1 other remaining matter for us to address then is the 2 request by the FAA to have you ordered to pay a 3 monetary penalty because of this proved violation. 4 So the issue before me for a hearing is 5 limited to how much money, if any, you should be 6 ordered to pay. My question to you is, in terms of 7 discovery on that limited issue, have you gotten all 8 of the information that you need from the FAA to 9 understand how it is that the FAA came up with this 10 calculation of $600 as a proposed penalty? 11 MR. TICE: I still

-- it's very unclear to 12 me whether I'm even being charged with anything that 13 actually endangers anyone or not. I don't hear that 14 loud and clear. And I don't believe that I did 15 actually endanger anyone. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let me be loud and 17 clear with you now. You were charged with violations 18 that have been deemed by Congress to be a public 19 safety problem. You were charged with those 20 violations; you admitted to them and I found that you 21 indeed had committed them. And that's based on the 22 Hazardous Materials Act that was passed by Congress



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1 that the FAA lS required to regulate, you did, in 2 fact, commit those violations and those violations, in 3 fact, by law, are deemed to be hazardous and a 4 problem. 5 So the fact that the canister contained a 6 minimal or even a de minimus amount of fuel that we 7 talked about on May 16, 2013, did not create an 8 exception for you to avoid the FAA's appointed 9 prosecution. 10 The fact that the FAA may not have 11 prosecuted someone else for the same incident

-- and I 12 don't know that that's true or not, but you alleged it 13 earlier in these proceedings

-- does not allow you to 14 avoid prosecution. 

### 15 The fact that this seems de minimus to you 16 doesn't eliminate the fact that by law, it is not a de 17 minimus offense and the FAA is required to pursue and 18 prosecute these violations. 19 Now, as I mentioned at our last conference, 20 there are lots of people, in my opinion, who stand in 21 your shoes, throughout the country, when they go to 22 the airport to check in

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1 case that I see. 2 Now, your frustration with this process lS 3 not singular; there are other people who were here 4 before, who expressed similar, if not exactly the same 5 type of frustration that you're expressing. 6 The Hazardous Materials Act is extremely 7 lengthy, it's complex and it's difficult to 8 understand, and it is evolving as a piece of law. So 9 there are people, like yourself, who get stopped, have 10 the.experience that you had with the TSA agents and 11 walk onto the plane thinking that everything has been 12 taking care of and then find, to their dismay, later 13 on that they are facing a civil, a regulatory 14 violation or accusation, together with a civil 15 proposed penalty. 16 If you have the passion to engage in the 17 public discussion, I would encourage you to do this, 18 you are welcome to start talking to your congressman 19 and your senator about changes that you think need to 20 be made to the Hazardous Materials Act. 21 So if you think, for example, that this 22 particular section of the Hazardous Materials Act,



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1 under which you have been prosecuted is wrong, then 2 talk to your congressman. Talk to your senators. 3 Write a letter to the FAA division head and express 4 your views about how it could be changed and made 5 better. But for the time being, it is currently law 6 and the FAA is required, by its mission statement, to 7 essentially carry out and regulate the airways so that 8 these laws are not violated. 9 I am, as part of my job, required to sit in 10 judgment when these cases are brought to me. So you 11 have had a finding in this case, based on these 12 allegations, regarding the violations themselves. 13 Your opportunity now is to see whether or not there is 14 wiggle room for you to challenge this proposed $600 15 penalty that the FAA has proposed the charge against 16 you. 17 So one of the things that the FAA should do 18 is provide you with information on how they came to 19 20 21 22 the conclusion that $600 was a reasonable amount of money. One of the things that you can do in your discussions with the FAA attorney or in your defense of the case is to explain why you think $600 is too



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1 much, for example. It could be too much because you 2 think it's not reflective of the severity to the 3 violations. It could be too much because of your own 4 financial ability to pay. It could be too much 5 because you think there are mitigating circumstances 6 surrounding the events that caused you to be charged. 7 What I'm trying to find out from you now is 8 whether or not there is information that you think 9 would be helpful to you that the FAA could still give 10 you, if it has not given it to you already, about how 11 it calculated the $600 amount . 12 In your informal discussions with Mr. 13 Sargent, were you able to get from Mr. Sargent, 14 information from him about how his client calculated 15 the $600 penalty? 16 MR. TICE: Not really. He just referred to 17 some document that he referred to before that was 18 saying that that's just what they do in these 19 circumstances. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that might be 21 something that we can take care of today. So I'm 22 going to turn to Mr. Sargent. Mr. Sargent, I think it



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1 would be very helpful if you could provide to Mr. Tice 2 the actual calculations that your client engaged in to 3 reach the $600 amount. Do you have that document or 4 set of documents available for disclosure? 5 MR. SARGENT: Your Honor, we can address 6 this a number of different ways. I guess, obviously, 7 referring back to the FAA's intended motion to seek a 8 prehearing ruling on the sanctions issue, I can 9 certainly spell it out very clearly with support of 10 documentation as to how we came to that amount. 11 That's one way we can establish that

. 12 Another way is if Mr. Tice would like copies 13 of the documents that we rely upon, i.e., our 14 sanctions guidance policy, and/or sort of a written 15 explanation of how we administer that. If he wants to 16 do that through the discovery process, we can do that 17 as well. 18 THE COURT: It might be helpful if you did 19 both. Mr. Tice certainly has the right to know what 20 is disclosable from your client, which is, as you've 21 noted, copies of the sanctions guidance policy and how 22 you've calculated the $600 amount. And then you are



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1 welcome to reiterate that or expand upon that at any 2 motion that you choose to make prior to a hearing. 3 Let me ask you this, Mr. Sargent, how much 4 time would it take for you to provide Mr. Tice with 5 the discovery document that we just identified? 6 MR. SARGENT: Well, I guess it would 7 depend on what exactly he was looking for and what 8 format he was looking for. With regard to the 9 guidance policy, it's actually publically available. 10 It would be as simple as providing him a link to the 11 website to get the policy by emailing him or I can 12 even send him a pdf copy of the policy. If he's 13 looking for a sort of written explanation, that might 14 take a little more time, but I wouldn't imagine that 15 it would be overly exhaustive. 16 THE COURT: If it is not overly exhaustive 17 for your client, how much time would it take, in your 18 opinion, to gather that material together? 19 MR. SARGENT: Well, given my own workload 20 in some other matters that I'm dealing with, if I 21 could get 14 or 20 days to provide him with the 22 written information. The documents wouldn't take very



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1 long at all. I can do it within seven days, I 2 suppose. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Well, today is June 13, 4 2013. Why don't we say June 28, 2013 for emailing Mr. 5 Tice and then the pdf version of the sanction guidance 6 would

-- 7 MR. SARGENT: Yes. That's more than 8 enough time. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Go ahead. 10 MR. SARGENT: That's more than enough 11 time

. 12 THE COURT: Do you need until July 19, 2013 13 for serving Mr. Tice with a written explanation of how 14 your client calculated the $600 penalty? 15 MR. SARGENT: Yes. That's also more than 16 reasonable. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Tice, is 18 there anything else that you can think of that would 19 be helpful to you in learning more about how that $600 20 penalty was calculated, or would that be sufficient 21 for purposes at this point? 22 MR. TICE: It would be sufficient for the



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1 purposes that you've stated. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Now, in terms of you, Mr. 3 Tice, in your discovery, oftentimes the FAA finds it 4 helpful in negotiating settlements with respondents 5 such as yourself, to find out whether or not a 6 proposed penalty is beyond your ability to pay. 7 If you believe that that is part of your 8 defense, then I am going to suggest a deadline for you 9 to submit that type of information to Mr. Sargent. 10 Would you like me to give you a deadline for that type 11 of information to be given to Mr. Sargent? 12 MR. TICE: No, ma'am. I'm not making that 13 assertion. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's talk next 15 about a motion, any kind of dispositive motion. What 16 we're going to be doing is talking about the filing of 17 dispositive motions before we set a hearing date. 18 Since July 19, 2013 looks like it would be close to 19 the parties discovery deadline, let's talk about 20 dispositive motions being filed and heard after that. 21 Mr. Sargent, I'm going to start with you 22 again. After July 19, 2013, about when do you think



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1 would be a comfortable time for you to file any and 2 all dispositive motions on our remaining issue? 3 MR. SARGENT: Your Honor, I think 30 days 4 would be enough time to prepare and file this motion. 5 THE COURT: Okay. So 30 days from July 19, 6 2013 would be approximately August 16, 2013 or August 7 23, 2013. Do you have a preference for either Friday 8 date in August? 9 MR. SARGENT: Just looking at my own 10 calendar, I don't believe that I do have a preference. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, I'm going to 12 turn to you then. You can file a dispositive motion 13 on your own behalf as well. Mr. Sargent has suggested 14 that the filing of any such dispositive motion should 15 be done either on August 16th or August 23rd. Do you 16 have any preference for either date? 17 MR. TICE: No, I don't. 18 THE COURT: Why don't we say August 23, 2013 19 for the filing of dispositive motion. I'm going to 20 set a response date and a reply date, and then we can 21 talk about the oral argument date for that. I know 22 there is the Labor Day holiday following September



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1 1st. Why don't we have the response due on or before 2 September 13, 2013, and the reply due on or before 3 September 27, 4 2013. 5 Mr. Sargent, starting with you, is that an 6 acceptable timeframe for the filing of the written 7 motion? 8 MR. SARGENT: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 9 Could you just repeat the date of the response to the 10 motion? 11 THE COURT: I'll repeat all of it, sir. For 12 filing: August 23, 2013. Response: September 13, 13 2013, and reply: September 27, 2013. 14 MR. SARGENT: I have no problem with any 15 of those dates, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, does that 17 schedule work for you as well? 18 MR. TICE: That's fine. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's talk about 20 setting an oral argument ln early October of 2013. 21 I'm going to look at my calendar first so that I can 22 set this at a time when I'm actually here. Mr.



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1 Sargent, do you have any blackout dates for the week 2 of October 7, 3 2013? 4 MR. SARGENT: I don't believe so, Your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, how about you? 7 Is there anything that would prevent you from being 8 available on one of the days for October of 2013? 9 MR. TICE: Are we talking about me being 10 available by telephone? 11 THE COURT: That's correct. This would be 12 for an oral argument over the telephone, just like we 13 had last time. 14 MR. TICE: No. I don't know of any dates 15 that I would not be available. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's plan on 17 Thursday, October 10, 2013. 11:00 seems to work well, 18 although, Mr. Tice, you're in Wisconsin. Let me 19 double-check with you about that. 20 MR. TICE: 11:00 is fine. 21 THE COURT: So let's plan on Thursday, 22 October 10, 2013 at 11:00 Eastern time

. Folks, what



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1 I'd like you to do is reserve a one-hour period of 2 time for the oral argument. 3 Mr. Tice, since you are representing 4 yourself, let me explain a couple of things to you 5 about this type of motion that Mr. Sargent has been 6 talking about. This type of motion requires him, if he 7 files as a petitioning party, and it would require 8 you, as the petitioning party as well, if you choose 9 to file a motion, to submit an argument with 10 evidentiary exhibits or references to documentation in 11 the file that would admissible or could be admissible 12 as evidence to support the request for relief. 13 Essentially, you make your request for 14 relief and then you attach documents and/or statements 15 of testimonial value for someone who has dated and 16 signed the statement under penalty of perjury that 17 support your request for relief. 

### 18 In this type of motion, it seeks to either 19 narrow the issues for hearing or dispose of all 20 remaining issues for hearing. So it behooves the 21 moving party to be very careful and thorough about 22 what he or she presents in writing because the court



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1 must rest upon that written material to make a 2 decision. If you are a responding party to such a 3 motion and you don't like the motion, all or in part, 4 you need to present testimony or documentary evidence 5 in writing that specifically challenges the moving 6 party's evidence. 7 It's not enough to simply say I don't like 8 the motion. I think it's unfair. I want to have a 9 hearing. If I have a hearing I'll explain to you 10 then. I say that not because I think you would do 11 that, I'm saying that because I've had people say that 12 to me in the past, and that's not sufficient. You 13 actually have to submit proposed evidence to show that 14 you have a basis to go to trial. 15 The reply date is for the moving party to 16 have the last say or the last bite at the apple before 17 the parties convene for oral argument. So you want to 18 make sure that when you get any such motion, you read 19 it carefully, you read the evidence, and you compare 20 it to what the Court is required to look at. 21 There are certain factors that this Court 22 must look at in assessing a civil penalty

. I'm going



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1 to look at the Complaint just very briefly to see if 2 the Complaint identifies those. It doesn't. 3 There are typically nine factors that the 4 Court looks at in assessing a civil penalty or 5 reviewing a civil penalty. And the sanction guideline 6 that Mr. Sargent is going td send to you should 7 identify each and every one of those. So take a look 8 at each and every one of them and then decide whether 9 or not you have some defenses that fall within some of 10 those categories or criteria. 11 So Mr. Tice, staying with you for the 12 moment, are there any comments or questions about this 13 so far? 14 MR. TICE: Well, my comment is about you 15 suggesting that I contact my congress people and 16 things like that. I don't have a problem with the law 17 18 19 20 21 22 at all and I don't have a problem with the whole concept of the government being able to have rules and regulations on things. What I have a problem with is that laws can't be written perfectly and need to be interpreted and decided on whether they are worthy of prosecution,



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1 based on the severity of the offense. That's my 2 issue. 3 So it goes to what I was trying to discuss 4 last time about whether people are going to have 5 respect for the government and its rules and 6 regulations or whether they are going to just continue 7 to be more circling and jaded. And that's that part 8 that really bothers me. 9 THE COURT: Okay. So as I understand it, 10 you take great exception to the FAA pursuing this case 11 against you. 12 MR. TICE: Right. And I'm not at all 13 surprised that you told me that I'm not the only one 14 and that you see this quite often. I would suggest 15 that it's going to continue until the FAA adopts a 16 more rational policy on what offenses are worthy of 17 prosecution and what aren't. 18 THE COURT: And who do you think are going 19 to help make that happen? 20 MR. TICE: I would like to make it happen. 21 It's very important to me. I really want people to 22 have confidence and faith in the government's ability



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1 to properly regulate our society. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I would encourage you to 3 help make that happen. 4 MR. TICE: I'm trying in my own pathetic 5 little way here. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Just so you know, the FAA 7 has the authority and has the mandate to prosecute 8 this type of case under the current law and that is 9 what they are doing. You're telling me that they 10 shouldn't be doing that. 11 I'm saying to you if that is what you 12 believe, then there are avenues for you to pursue to 13 make changes for future filing, but I do not have the 

### 14 authority to dismiss this case, as I think you would 15 like me to, simply because you believe that they 16 shouldn't have brought it against you. 17 There has been no basis that you have 18 presented or that I know of, independently, that would 19 give me the authority to dismiss the case. And in 20 fact, the opposite has happened. I have found that 21 22 the FAA is well within its jurisdiction to pursue this

case against you, and that the evidence that they have



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1 submitted supports a finding that the violations have 2 occurred and I have made that decision already. 3 So I can hear you when you say that you 4 aren't happy and frustrated with this prosecution, and 5 I don't doubt that and I respect that perception and 6 belief, but that does not give me a basis to act in 7 the way that you would like me to and to dismiss this. 8 It will not be dismissed. It has not been dismissed 9 and it has been a violation or a series of violations 10 that has already been found against you at this point. 11 So at this point, my jurisdiction at this 12 point is to review the proposed civil penalty of $600 13 and see whether or not a) the FAA has groun,ds to 14 support that request, and b) whether you, as the 15 responding litigant, has grounds to suggest that it 16 should be different. And that's what we're going to 17 go forward on now, with the greatest respect to your 18 unhappiness with the prosecution and I think with your 19 unhappiness that I have made a finding that the 20 violations did in fact occur 21 MR. TICE: Well, ma'am. I am not unhappy 22 with the finding at all. That does not bother me . 

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### CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 06-13-2013

THE COURT: Okay. Well, you could be 2 unhappy and I would accept that, you know. 3 MR. TICE: No. The violations have 4 occurred. They were not severe at all. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't we do this, 6 it's five to noon. We're running out of time again. 7 I am going to wait to address the issue of venue until 8 after I hear oral argument on the motion regarding the 9 penalty, unless the parties would like me to set 10 another conference time within the next two to three 11 weeks. I can finish up with venue and set a hearing 12 if you'd like. I'll start with you, Mr. Sargent. 13 What is your preference? 14 MR. SARGENT: I don't have any issue to 15 addressing the issue of venue during our next 16 conference, whenever that may be. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, any preference? 18 MR. TICE: No, I have no preference. I 19 would like for you to clarify something and I 20 apologize to you because I think you have maybe tried 21 to do this and I'm just not getting it, but can you 22 clarify to me what options are available to argue that



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1 there should not be a fine ln this matter? 2 Did you say that I can address the severity 3 of the offense and whether anyone was actually 4 endangered or did you say that I couldn't? 5 THE COURT: I said that there are nine 6 different factors that the regulations allow in 7 looking at how to assess a civil penalty and how to 8 defend against it and part of those nine factors 9 include providing or making arguments that there are 10 mitigating factors. Now, the fact that you believe 11 personally that this isn't serious isn't something 12 that I have adopted. 13 MR. TICE: I understand that and I'm not 14 trying to base it on that. I'm not. 15 THE COURT: So what I'm saying is that once 16 you get that pdf document, which is the sanction 17 policies of the FAA, that may start you thinking, as 18 you read through it, about the different defenses that 19 you might want to raise in objecting to this $600 20 proposed penalty, but I can't lead you to any one 21 specific defense. That's up to you. 22 MR. TICE: Okay.



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### CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 06-13-2013

THE COURT: Okay. Any other questions, "Mr. 2 Tice, before we close today? 3 MR. TICE: No. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Sargent, any other 5 questions for your client? 6 MR. SARGENT: No, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Then I will issue a 8 written ruling of about what we just talked about. 9 Folks, I'm going to ask you to be prepared at the next 10 conference to talk about

-- I don't want to give up my 11 one hour for the argument. We may end up setting 12 another conference after that to address the issue of 13 venue and the actual litigation if we go to that 14 point. 15 So for the October 10, 2013 oral argument, 16 let's plan on just using that time or oral argument on 17 the issue of penalty. If we have a little time within 18 that one hour we can address some of these other 19 things. If we don't, then we'll set something out 20 21 22 within two to three weeks of October 10, 2013 to address everything else. With that, I want to thank everybody for



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1 your presence today. It appears that our business is 2 complete. We can go off the record and I wish you all 3 a good day and a good weekend. 4 (Whereupon, at 11:58 a.m., the 5 proceedings were concluded.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22



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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

3 I, GERVEL A. WATTS, the officer before whom the 4 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that 5 the testimony that appears in the foregoing pages was 6 recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said deposition is a true 8 record of the proceedings; that I am neither counsel 9 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 10 the action in which this deposition was taken; and 11 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 12 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, 13 nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome 14 of this action. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 

# lLu&_llllolt_L GERVEL A. WATTS Notary Public ln and for the District of Columbia

22 My Commission expires: January 31, 2014



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# • CapitalReportingCompany InRe: ScottTice 06-13-2013 Page7 29:17 34:8 35:16 36:15,16 penalty4:5,16 order3:22 5:1,5 10:11 16:3,10 6:1 7:1 9:17 18:15 19:15 ordered 16:2,6 20:15 23:14,20 24:6 28:16 29:22 Orr2:19 3:13 30:4,5 33:12 otherwise 38:13 34:9 35:7,20 outcome38:13 36:17 people 17:20 out-of-state8:18 18:3,929:11 outside9:7 30:15 31:4,21 outstanding3:19 perception 33:5 9:16 perfectly30:21 overly22:15,16 perhaps 10:14 p period28:1 page 14:22 perjury28:16 pages 38:5 personal 15:13,14 Paragraph 5:5,20 personally35:11 Park2:8 personnel6:19 participating petitioning28:7,8 15:18 piece 18:8 particular 11:14 plan 8:6 27:16,21 15:16 18:22 36:16 parties3:5 9:13 plane I1 :18,22 24:I929:I734:9 I2:1,5 18:II 38:9,I2 planning5:14 party28:7,8,21 plans II:2 29:2,I5 party's29:6 pocketknife 13:18 passed I6:22 point4:12 6:9 7:22 8:11 9:19,22 passion I8:16 10:5I4:I823:21 past29:12 33:I0,11,I2 pathetic32:4 36:14 pay 16:2,620:4 policies 35:17 24:6 policy7:1 pdf22:1223:5 21 :I4,21 

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### (866) 448- DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com©

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