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Capital Reporting Company 

In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 RECEIVED 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATit!EARING DOC ET 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

1JORIGINAL 

In The Matter Of: 

SCOTT TICE, Docket No.: FAA-2013-0042 

Respondent. 

Thursday, June 13, 2013 -o 

y ....... ) 

The TELEPHONIC HEARING before the U.S. ..0 

Department of Transportation, Office of Hearings, held 

via conference call, pursuant to Notice, before Gervel 

A. Watts, CERT*D, of Capital Reporting Company, and 

Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, 

commencing at 11:07 a.m., before U.S. ADMINISTRATIVE 

LAW JUDGE J.E. SULLIVAN . 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 A P P E A R A N C E S 

2 

3 On behalf of Complainant: 

4 R. BENNETT SARGENT, ESQUIRE 

5 Office of the Regional Counsel, ANE-7 

6 New England Region 

7 Federal Aviation Administration 

8 12 New England Executive Park 

9 Burlington, Massachusetts 01821 

10 ( 7 81) 238-7058 

11 

12 On behalf of Respondent: 

13 SCOTT TICE (Pro Se) 

14 21125 Timberland Road 

15 Barronett, Wisconsin 54813-9540 

16 scott@ticetech.com 

17 ALSO PRESENT: 

18 Special Agent Julie DeCosta, FAA 

19 Andy Orr, Intern 

20 Emily Hurvitz, Intern 

21 Lisa Harris, Legal Assistant 

22 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

THE COURT: We're on the record ~n the 

3 matter of Scott Tice. This is Docket Number FAA-2013-

4 0042. Today is Thursday, June 13, 2013, and the 

5 parties have convened for a 16 Litigation Scheduling 

6 teleconference. 

7 The FAA is represented by its attorney of 

8 record, R. Bennett Sargent. Also present with Mr. 

9 Sargent is Special Agent Julie DeCosta, sitting in as 

10 an observer. The Respondent, Scott Tice, is 

11 representing himself, also appearing by telephone . 

12 Present here at the Office of Hearings are 

13 three observers: Law Student, Andy Orr and Emily 

14 Hurvitz, who are serving as interns with this office, 

15 as well as legal assistant, Lisa Harris. Good morning 

16 to you all. 

17 As you folks may recall, we last convened ln 

18 May of 2013. It was May 16, 2013. We addressed an 

19 outstanding motion that has been filed by the FAA to 

20 deem allegations admitted. After oral argument was 

21 concluded, I issued an oral ruling, which then 

22 codified in writing by a May 21, 2013 Order, granting 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 FAA renewed motion to deem allegation and 

2 granting/denying other relief. 

3 We are reconvening today to talk about 

4 procedures for completing the remaining part of this 

5 case, which is the proposed civil penalty of $600. As 

6 part of those procedures we need to address a couple 

7 of different matters: 

8 1. Venue 2. Discovery. 

9 3. Exchange of exhibits and witness list, 

10 and 4. The type of hearing we want to have on this 

11 remaining matter . 

12 It might be efficacious at this point if I 

13 turn first to Mr. Sargent and talk a little bit with 

14 you about what witnesses or documentary evidence you 

15 think you would need to present on a prima facie case 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

in support of your proposed penalty and how much time 

it would take and what, in your opinion, would be the 

best method for presenting that type of testimony, 

sir. 

MR. SARGENT: Sure. Obviously, with the 

limited issue of sanction remaining ln dispute -- it 

actually may be beneficial to address one aspect of 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 your first Order, prior to me getting into that 

2 discussion. 

3 THE COURT: Okay. 

4 MR. SARGENT: And I'm referring to, it 

5 looks like Paragraph 3 of that Order --

6 THE COURT: I have it in front of me. 

7 MR. SARGENT: -- which references that 

8 the FAA did not seek a prehearing ruling on the issue 

9 of sanction. And that's also because we were in the 

10 process, and Mr. Tice has requested some information 

11 from us, which we interpreted as a discovery request . 

12 So we wanted to give him the opportunity to get an 

13 answer on that information. 

14 Your Honor, the FAA is planning to file a 

15 prehearing motion, seeking a ruling on that issue, 

16 which, you know, would obviate the need for a hearing 

17 on the issue. 

18 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't I just address 

19 that very quickly. I would agree with you that 

20 Paragraph 3 says exactly what you iterated that the 

21 "FAA's renewed motion did not seek a prehearing ruling 

22 on this issue." And that was absolutely true at the 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 time that this Order was issued on May 21, 2013. It 

2 does not preclude you to file a motion on that issue 

3 between now and whatever hearing was set. You're 

4 welcome to do that, just as Mr. Tice is welcome to 

5 file further motions as well. And we can set up a 

6 timeframe for both of you to do that before we 

7 conclude today. 

8 MR. SARGENT: Okay. Your Honor, the FAA, 

9 at this point, would be likely to do that. Now, as 

10 far as in the event a hearing were to be held on the 

11 issue, again, the FAA believes that it would be fairly 

12 limited in time and in scope. We would obviously be 

13 introducing evidence with regard to our choice of 

14 sanction or the factors that we considered when 

15 choosing a sanction ln this matter. 

16 As far as witnesses, Agent DeCosta, who lS 

17 with me here today, would likely be a witness and 

18 potentially any of the applicable TSA or airport 

19 personnel that were involved may be called as 

20 witnesses for very limited information. But probably 

21 unlikely as well. 

22 The FAA will be referring, in large part, to 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 its own Sanction Guidance policy which is in FAA Order 

2 2150.3(b), in support of its argument with regard to 

3 its choice of sanction. There may be some additional 

4 evidence and some statutory material that would be 

5 presented as well. But as I said, that information 

6 will likely be fairly limited, not too documentary 

7 intense. We don't imagine that any type of hearing 

8 would last longer than a day. 

9 THE COURT: When you say "one day," are you 

10 anticipating that you include the respondent's 

11 responsive case or simply your prima facie case? 

12 MR. SARGENT: We believe that would 

13 include the entire case. Obviously we can't speak on 

14 behalf of the respondent to the amount of time he 

15 would need to put on his case, but I would imagine 

16 that with the issue being limited in scope, as we have 

17 remaining, that a hearing in this matter shouldn't 

18 take longer than a day. Mr. Tice can feel free to 

19 dispute that if he wishes. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you this, you 

21 had talked in prior materials about venue, and you had 

22 proposed at one point, Boston, Massachusetts. 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 you had a chance to discuss further about the proposed 

2 hearing site with Mr. Tice since that time? 

3 MR. SARGENT: No. We really have not 

4 explored the issue any further. Our limited 

5 conversations are pretty encapsulated in the proposed 

6 scheduling plan that was filed on May 9, 2013. The 

7 FAA suggested that Boston would be the most 

8 appropriate site for the hearing because it's the hub, 

9 essentially, of the New England Region of the FAA, 

10 where all the actual relevant witnesses and evidence 

11 is located at this point. We think that would make 

12 it, obviously, the most likely site for a hearing. 

13 I anticipate that Mr. Tice is going to 

14 dispute that and request that the hearing be held 

15 closer to his geographical region, but again, the FAA, 

16 you know, given the fact that the violation occurred 

17 in New England, it's sort of akin to someone who gets 

18 a speeding ticket out-of-state. 

19 Typically, the state won't bring the hearing 

20 to you. If someone chooses to challenge that speeding 

21 ticket, they're required to appear in court in the 

22 state in which the violation occurred. 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

THE COURT: Okay. As I understand it, from 

2 looking at the FAA Complaint, the violation actually 

3 occurred in Vermont; is that correct? 

4 MR. SARGENT: That is correct. It was at 

5 Rutland Regional Airport in Vermont; however, while 

6 the airport at issue is located in Vermont, our 

7 regional office is located just outside of Boston. 

8 Agent DeCosta and myself are both located within that 

9 office and the evidence that we've gathered is located 

10 here as well. 

11 However, the FAA may not have any major 

12 objection if we hold the hearing in Vermont, if all 

13 parties find that necessary. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Let me ask 

15 you one other question Mr. Sargent. In terms of 

16 discovery, is there any outstanding discovery that 

17 your client still needs from Mr. Tice ln order to 

18 prepare for hearing? 

19 MR. SARGENT: At this point, it doesn't 

20 appear that we would likely need any more information 

21 from Mr. Tice. Mr. Tice requested a small -- very 

22 limited information from us . At this point, we're 

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1 unaware of any 

2 support of his 

Capital Reporting Company 

In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

other information he is going 

prima facie case. So without 

to use ln 

that 

3 knowledge it would difficult that we would request any 

4 more information, but it is unlikely that we would 

5 need any more at this point. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Tice, let 

7 me turn to you. I'm going to be asking you the same 

8 types of questions that I asked Mr. Sargent. Let's 

9 talk first about how many witnesses you think you 

10 would call just to talk about the issue of 'the 

11 proposed $600 penalty? 

12 MR. TICE: None. I won't be calling any 

13 witnesses. 

14 THE COURT: Would you be, perhaps, calling 

15 yourself as a witness? 

16 MR. TICE: Again, I apologize for my lack of 

17 legal knowledge. I guess I would be my only witness. 

18 THE COURT: Let me make sure I understand. 

19 I was asking if you might be calling yourself as a 

20 witness. Did you just say "Yes?" I wasn't sure. 

21 MR. TICE: Yes. 

22 THE COURT: Other than yourself, is there 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 anyone else that you might be considering calling? 

2 MR. TICE: I don't have any plans to do so 

3 at this time. 

4 THE COURT: In terms of discovery, are there 

5 any materials that you still need to get from Mr. 

6 Sargent about how he his client has calculated the 

7 proposed $600 fine? 

8 MR. TICE: Well, what I'd like to get from 

9 Mr. Sargent and the FAA is the container of fuel that 

10 I inadvertently presented be weighed so that we can 

11 determine accurately how much fuel it contained. 

12 THE COURT: Right. We talked about that at 

13 the last teleconference. Do you recall that we 

14 discussed that particular request? 

15 MR. TICE: I certainly do. 

16 THE COURT: And during that discussion it 

17 turned out that the container had been thrown away at 

18 the airport before you boarded the plane. Do you 

19 remember that? 

20 MR. TICE: Well, no, I don't think that was 

21 the discussion. It wasn't thrown away before I got on 

22 the plane, it was confiscated before I boarded the 

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1 plane. 

2 that. 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

It may have been disposed of subsequent to 

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for that 

4 clarification. It was confiscated before you boarded 

5 the plane. I'm basing my next comment on memory. I 

6 haven't checked the transcript, but if I recall the 

7 conversation on May 16, 2013, there was a statement 

8 made that the container was mostly likely then 

9 disposed of. I will turn to Mr. Sargent to just 

10 double check on that. 

11 Mr. Sargent, do you recall that discussion 

12 on May 16, 2013? 

13 MR. SARGENT: I do, Your Honor. 

14 THE COURT: Could you clarify or repeat what 

15 you had said to both Mr. Tice and I about the 

16 container? 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

MR. SARGENT: Yes. From us, as far as 

we're aware, the container had been disposed of by 

time the FAA was able to begin its investigation. 

the time the FAA was notified and began its 

investigation of the incident, it had been disposed 

of . 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

Now, the statement from Mr. Tice to Agent 

2 DeCosta, regarding the disposal in which -- I think it 

3 was an email that Mr. Tice had sent to Agent DeCosta 

4 where he basically said that he had TSA to dispose of 

5 the canister and he believed that that is what had in 

6 fact occurred. 

7 THE COURT: Mr. Tice, let me turn back to 

8 you. Does that help clarify for you the conversation 

9 we had on May 16, 2013 or does it provide you with 

10 some new information that's helpful? 

11 MR. TICE: Oh, I'm very clear on the 

12 conversation. That's not the issue. My problem is 

13 that at the time that I was at the airport, I had 

14 absolutely no idea that this was going to result in 

15 prosecution. 

16 This seems to me to be a completely routine 

17 thing where somebody makes a mistake and inadvertently 

18 brings on prohibited items, such as a pocketknife or 

19 something like that, which would then be confiscated 

20 and disposed of. I had no idea this was going to lead 

21 

22 

to prosecution. 

It seems to me to be completely unfair and 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 wrong that if there is going to be prosecution, the 

2 evidence does not get preserved. I just can't really 

3 imagine how that can be allowed to happen. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. I've heard you say that 

5 you're unhappy with this prosecution. That you think 

6 it's wrong. That the evidence was not preserved and 

7 that you think that it would have made a difference 

8 for your case if the canister had been retained. 

9 Would that be a fair summary of what you just said to 

10 me? 

11 MR. TICE: Well, I'm not sure that it would 

12 make a difference in the case because apparently, from 

13 what I'm learning, there is no, what I would refer to 

14 as a de minimus offense. But still, I think ln 

15 reality, ln a rational world, there should be some 

16 understanding of what is really dangerous and what is 

17 not dangerous and that should be taken into 

18 consideration. I mean, it sounds like at this point I 

19 have no way of proving the amount of fuel that was in 

20 the container. 

21 THE COURT: I want to make sure that I'm on 

22 the same page as you when you tell me this . You're 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 saying, essentially, that it does bother you quite a 

2 bit that the container was not retained. 

3 MR. TICE: Very much so. Yes. 

4 THE COURT: What relief do you want me to 

5 give you as a result of this concern? 

6 MR. TICE: I don't know what relief you can 

7 give me. I'm sorry. I have no expertise ln legal 

8 matters. And I continue to believe that this offense 

9 is not worthy of prosecution. 

10 THE COURT: I've heard you say that. 

11 There's no doubt that I understand that that's part of 

12 your position. I think I said to you on May 16, 2013, 

13 and I'll reiterate it here that your personal belief, 

14 notwithstanding your personal belief, the Federal 

15 Aviation Administration disagrees and has prosecuted 

16 you for this particular violation. 

17 MR. TICE: I understand that. I know. And 

18 I am participating as best I can. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. Very good. As you may 

20 recall, when we last convened on May 16, 2013, I 

21 

22 

granted the FAA's motion to deem allegations admitted, 

which means the violations have been proved and the 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 other remaining matter for us to address then is the 

2 request by the FAA to have you ordered to pay a 

3 monetary penalty because of this proved violation. 

4 So the issue before me for a hearing is 

5 limited to how much money, if any, you should be 

6 ordered to pay. My question to you is, in terms of 

7 discovery on that limited issue, have you gotten all 

8 of the information that you need from the FAA to 

9 understand how it is that the FAA came up with this 

10 calculation of $600 as a proposed penalty? 

11 MR. TICE: I still -- it's very unclear to 

12 me whether I'm even being charged with anything that 

13 actually endangers anyone or not. I don't hear that 

14 loud and clear. And I don't believe that I did 

15 actually endanger anyone. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let me be loud and 

17 clear with you now. You were charged with violations 

18 that have been deemed by Congress to be a public 

19 safety problem. You were charged with those 

20 violations; you admitted to them and I found that you 

21 indeed had committed them. And that's based on the 

22 Hazardous Materials Act that was passed by Congress 

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1 that the FAA lS required to regulate, you did, in 

2 fact, commit those violations and those violations, in 

3 fact, by law, are deemed to be hazardous and a 

4 problem. 

5 So the fact that the canister contained a 

6 minimal or even a de minimus amount of fuel that we 

7 talked about on May 16, 2013, did not create an 

8 exception for you to avoid the FAA's appointed 

9 prosecution. 

10 The fact that the FAA may not have 

11 prosecuted someone else for the same incident -- and I 

12 don't know that that's true or not, but you alleged it 

13 earlier in these proceedings -- does not allow you to 

14 avoid prosecution. 

15 The fact that this seems de minimus to you 

16 doesn't eliminate the fact that by law, it is not a de 

17 minimus offense and the FAA is required to pursue and 

18 prosecute these violations. 

19 Now, as I mentioned at our last conference, 

20 there are lots of people, in my opinion, who stand in 

21 your shoes, throughout the country, when they go to 

22 the airport to check in . Your case is not the only 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 case that I see. 

2 Now, your frustration with this process lS 

3 not singular; there are other people who were here 

4 before, who expressed similar, if not exactly the same 

5 type of frustration that you're expressing. 

6 The Hazardous Materials Act is extremely 

7 lengthy, it's complex and it's difficult to 

8 understand, and it is evolving as a piece of law. So 

9 there are people, like yourself, who get stopped, have 

10 the.experience that you had with the TSA agents and 

11 walk onto the plane thinking that everything has been 

12 taking care of and then find, to their dismay, later 

13 on that they are facing a civil, a regulatory 

14 violation or accusation, together with a civil 

15 proposed penalty. 

16 If you have the passion to engage in the 

17 public discussion, I would encourage you to do this, 

18 you are welcome to start talking to your congressman 

19 and your senator about changes that you think need to 

20 be made to the Hazardous Materials Act. 

21 So if you think, for example, that this 

22 particular section of the Hazardous Materials Act, 

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1 under which you have been prosecuted is wrong, then 

2 talk to your congressman. Talk to your senators. 

3 Write a letter to the FAA division head and express 

4 your views about how it could be changed and made 

5 better. But for the time being, it is currently law 

6 and the FAA is required, by its mission statement, to 

7 essentially carry out and regulate the airways so that 

8 these laws are not violated. 

9 I am, as part of my job, required to sit in 

10 judgment when these cases are brought to me. So you 

11 have had a finding in this case, based on these 

12 allegations, regarding the violations themselves. 

13 Your opportunity now is to see whether or not there is 

14 wiggle room for you to challenge this proposed $600 

15 penalty that the FAA has proposed the charge against 

16 you. 

17 So one of the things that the FAA should do 

18 is provide you with information on how they came to 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the conclusion that $600 was a reasonable amount of 

money. One of the things that you can do in your 

discussions with the FAA attorney or in your defense 

of the case is to explain why you think $600 is too 

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1 much, for example. It could be too much because you 

2 think it's not reflective of the severity to the 

3 violations. It could be too much because of your own 

4 financial ability to pay. It could be too much 

5 because you think there are mitigating circumstances 

6 surrounding the events that caused you to be charged. 

7 What I'm trying to find out from you now is 

8 whether or not there is information that you think 

9 would be helpful to you that the FAA could still give 

10 you, if it has not given it to you already, about how 

11 it calculated the $600 amount . 

12 In your informal discussions with Mr. 

13 Sargent, were you able to get from Mr. Sargent, 

14 information from him about how his client calculated 

15 the $600 penalty? 

16 MR. TICE: Not really. He just referred to 

17 some document that he referred to before that was 

18 saying that that's just what they do in these 

19 circumstances. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that might be 

21 something that we can take care of today. So I'm 

22 going to turn to Mr. Sargent. Mr. Sargent, I think it 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 would be very helpful if you could provide to Mr. Tice 

2 the actual calculations that your client engaged in to 

3 reach the $600 amount. Do you have that document or 

4 set of documents available for disclosure? 

5 MR. SARGENT: Your Honor, we can address 

6 this a number of different ways. I guess, obviously, 

7 referring back to the FAA's intended motion to seek a 

8 prehearing ruling on the sanctions issue, I can 

9 certainly spell it out very clearly with support of 

10 documentation as to how we came to that amount. 

11 That's one way we can establish that . 

12 Another way is if Mr. Tice would like copies 

13 of the documents that we rely upon, i.e., our 

14 sanctions guidance policy, and/or sort of a written 

15 explanation of how we administer that. If he wants to 

16 do that through the discovery process, we can do that 

17 as well. 

18 THE COURT: It might be helpful if you did 

19 both. Mr. Tice certainly has the right to know what 

20 is disclosable from your client, which is, as you've 

21 noted, copies of the sanctions guidance policy and how 

22 you've calculated the $600 amount. And then you are 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

1 welcome to reiterate that or expand upon that at any 

2 motion that you choose to make prior to a hearing. 

3 Let me ask you this, Mr. Sargent, how much 

4 time would it take for you to provide Mr. Tice with 

5 the discovery document that we just identified? 

6 MR. SARGENT: Well, I guess it would 

7 depend on what exactly he was looking for and what 

8 format he was looking for. With regard to the 

9 guidance policy, it's actually publically available. 

10 It would be as simple as providing him a link to the 

11 website to get the policy by emailing him or I can 

12 even send him a pdf copy of the policy. If he's 

13 looking for a sort of written explanation, that might 

14 take a little more time, but I wouldn't imagine that 

15 it would be overly exhaustive. 

16 THE COURT: If it is not overly exhaustive 

17 for your client, how much time would it take, in your 

18 opinion, to gather that material together? 

19 MR. SARGENT: Well, given my own workload 

20 in some other matters that I'm dealing with, if I 

21 could get 14 or 20 days to provide him with the 

22 written information. The documents wouldn't take very 

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1 long at all. I can do it within seven days, I 

2 suppose. 

3 THE COURT: Okay. Well, today is June 13, 

4 2013. Why don't we say June 28, 2013 for emailing Mr. 

5 Tice and then the pdf version of the sanction guidance 

6 would --

7 MR. SARGENT: Yes. That's more than 

8 enough time. 

9 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Go ahead. 

10 MR. SARGENT: That's more than enough 

11 time . 

12 THE COURT: Do you need until July 19, 2013 

13 for serving Mr. Tice with a written explanation of how 

14 your client calculated the $600 penalty? 

15 MR. SARGENT: Yes. That's also more than 

16 reasonable. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Tice, is 

18 there anything else that you can think of that would 

19 be helpful to you in learning more about how that $600 

20 penalty was calculated, or would that be sufficient 

21 for purposes at this point? 

22 MR. TICE: It would be sufficient for the 

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1 purposes that you've stated. 

2 THE COURT: Okay. Now, in terms of you, Mr. 

3 Tice, in your discovery, oftentimes the FAA finds it 

4 helpful in negotiating settlements with respondents 

5 such as yourself, to find out whether or not a 

6 proposed penalty is beyond your ability to pay. 

7 If you believe that that is part of your 

8 defense, then I am going to suggest a deadline for you 

9 to submit that type of information to Mr. Sargent. 

10 Would you like me to give you a deadline for that type 

11 of information to be given to Mr. Sargent? 

12 MR. TICE: No, ma'am. I'm not making that 

13 assertion. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's talk next 

15 about a motion, any kind of dispositive motion. What 

16 we're going to be doing is talking about the filing of 

17 dispositive motions before we set a hearing date. 

18 Since July 19, 2013 looks like it would be close to 

19 the parties discovery deadline, let's talk about 

20 dispositive motions being filed and heard after that. 

21 Mr. Sargent, I'm going to start with you 

22 again. After July 19, 2013, about when do you think 

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1 would be a comfortable time for you to file any and 

2 all dispositive motions on our remaining issue? 

3 MR. SARGENT: Your Honor, I think 30 days 

4 would be enough time to prepare and file this motion. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. So 30 days from July 19, 

6 2013 would be approximately August 16, 2013 or August 

7 23, 2013. Do you have a preference for either Friday 

8 date in August? 

9 MR. SARGENT: Just looking at my own 

10 calendar, I don't believe that I do have a preference. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, I'm going to 

12 turn to you then. You can file a dispositive motion 

13 on your own behalf as well. Mr. Sargent has suggested 

14 that the filing of any such dispositive motion should 

15 be done either on August 16th or August 23rd. Do you 

16 have any preference for either date? 

17 MR. TICE: No, I don't. 

18 THE COURT: Why don't we say August 23, 2013 

19 for the filing of dispositive motion. I'm going to 

20 set a response date and a reply date, and then we can 

21 talk about the oral argument date for that. I know 

22 there is the Labor Day holiday following September 

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1 1st. Why don't we have the response due on or before 

2 September 13, 2013, and the reply due on or before 

3 September 27, 

4 2013. 

5 Mr. Sargent, starting with you, is that an 

6 acceptable timeframe for the filing of the written 

7 motion? 

8 MR. SARGENT: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 

9 Could you just repeat the date of the response to the 

10 motion? 

11 THE COURT: I'll repeat all of it, sir. For 

12 filing: August 23, 2013. Response: September 13, 

13 2013, and reply: September 27, 2013. 

14 MR. SARGENT: I have no problem with any 

15 of those dates, Your Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, does that 

17 schedule work for you as well? 

18 MR. TICE: That's fine. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's talk about 

20 setting an oral argument ln early October of 2013. 

21 I'm going to look at my calendar first so that I can 

22 set this at a time when I'm actually here. Mr. 

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1 Sargent, do you have any blackout dates for the week 

2 of October 7, 

3 2013? 

4 MR. SARGENT: I don't believe so, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, how about you? 

7 Is there anything that would prevent you from being 

8 available on one of the days for October of 2013? 

9 MR. TICE: Are we talking about me being 

10 available by telephone? 

11 THE COURT: That's correct . This would be 

12 for an oral argument over the telephone, just like we 

13 had last time. 

14 MR. TICE: No. I don't know of any dates 

15 that I would not be available. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's plan on 

17 Thursday, October 10, 2013. 11:00 seems to work well, 

18 although, Mr. Tice, you're in Wisconsin. Let me 

19 double-check with you about that. 

20 MR. TICE: 11:00 is fine. 

21 THE COURT: So let's plan on Thursday, 

22 October 10, 2013 at 11:00 Eastern time . Folks, what 

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1 I'd like you to do is reserve a one-hour period of 

2 time for the oral argument. 

3 Mr. Tice, since you are representing 

4 yourself, let me explain a couple of things to you 

5 about this type of motion that Mr. Sargent has been 

6 talking about. This type of motion requires him, if he 

7 files as a petitioning party, and it would require 

8 you, as the petitioning party as well, if you choose 

9 to file a motion, to submit an argument with 

10 evidentiary exhibits or references to documentation in 

11 the file that would admissible or could be admissible 

12 as evidence to support the request for relief. 

13 Essentially, you make your request for 

14 relief and then you attach documents and/or statements 

15 of testimonial value for someone who has dated and 

16 signed the statement under penalty of perjury that 

17 support your request for relief. 

18 In this type of motion, it seeks to either 

19 narrow the issues for hearing or dispose of all 

20 remaining issues for hearing. So it behooves the 

21 moving party to be very careful and thorough about 

22 what he or she presents in writing because the court 

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1 must rest upon that written material to make a 

2 decision. If you are a responding party to such a 

3 motion and you don't like the motion, all or in part, 

4 you need to present testimony or documentary evidence 

5 in writing that specifically challenges the moving 

6 party's evidence. 

7 It's not enough to simply say I don't like 

8 the motion. I think it's unfair. I want to have a 

9 hearing. If I have a hearing I'll explain to you 

10 then. I say that not because I think you would do 

11 that, I'm saying that because I've had people say that 

12 to me in the past, and that's not sufficient. You 

13 actually have to submit proposed evidence to show that 

14 you have a basis to go to trial. 

15 The reply date is for the moving party to 

16 have the last say or the last bite at the apple before 

17 the parties convene for oral argument. So you want to 

18 make sure that when you get any such motion, you read 

19 it carefully, you read the evidence, and you compare 

20 it to what the Court is required to look at. 

21 There are certain factors that this Court 

22 must look at in assessing a civil penalty . I'm going 

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1 to look at the Complaint just very briefly to see if 

2 the Complaint identifies those. It doesn't. 

3 There are typically nine factors that the 

4 Court looks at in assessing a civil penalty or 

5 reviewing a civil penalty. And the sanction guideline 

6 that Mr. Sargent is going td send to you should 

7 identify each and every one of those. So take a look 

8 at each and every one of them and then decide whether 

9 or not you have some defenses that fall within some of 

10 those categories or criteria. 

11 So Mr. Tice, staying with you for the 

12 moment, are there any comments or questions about this 

13 so far? 

14 MR. TICE: Well, my comment is about you 

15 suggesting that I contact my congress people and 

16 things like that. I don't have a problem with the law 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

at all and I don't have a problem with the whole 

concept of the government being able to have rules and 

regulations on things. 

What I have a problem with is that laws 

can't be written perfectly and need to be interpreted 

and decided on whether they are worthy of prosecution, 

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1 based on the severity of the offense. That's my 

2 issue. 

3 So it goes to what I was trying to discuss 

4 last time about whether people are going to have 

5 respect for the government and its rules and 

6 regulations or whether they are going to just continue 

7 to be more circling and jaded. And that's that part 

8 that really bothers me. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. So as I understand it, 

10 you take great exception to the FAA pursuing this case 

11 against you . 

12 MR. TICE: Right. And I'm not at all 

13 surprised that you told me that I'm not the only one 

14 and that you see this quite often. I would suggest 

15 that it's going to continue until the FAA adopts a 

16 more rational policy on what offenses are worthy of 

17 prosecution and what aren't. 

18 THE COURT: And who do you think are going 

19 to help make that happen? 

20 MR. TICE: I would like to make it happen. 

21 It's very important to me. I really want people to 

22 have confidence and faith in the government's ability 

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1 to properly regulate our society. 

2 THE COURT: Okay. I would encourage you to 

3 help make that happen. 

4 MR. TICE: I'm trying in my own pathetic 

5 little way here. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. Just so you know, the FAA 

7 has the authority and has the mandate to prosecute 

8 this type of case under the current law and that is 

9 what they are doing. You're telling me that they 

10 shouldn't be doing that. 

11 I'm saying to you if that is what you 

12 believe, then there are avenues for you to pursue to 

13 make changes for future filing, but I do not have the 

14 authority to dismiss this case, as I think you would 

15 like me to, simply because you believe that they 

16 shouldn't have brought it against you. 

17 There has been no basis that you have 

18 presented or that I know of, independently, that would 

19 give me the authority to dismiss the case. And in 

20 fact, the opposite has happened. I have found that 

21 

22 

the FAA is well within its jurisdiction to pursue this 

case against you, and that the evidence that they have 

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1 submitted supports a finding that the violations have 

2 occurred and I have made that decision already. 

3 So I can hear you when you say that you 

4 aren't happy and frustrated with this prosecution, and 

5 I don't doubt that and I respect that perception and 

6 belief, but that does not give me a basis to act in 

7 the way that you would like me to and to dismiss this. 

8 It will not be dismissed. It has not been dismissed 

9 and it has been a violation or a series of violations 

10 that has already been found against you at this point. 

11 So at this point, my jurisdiction at this 

12 point is to review the proposed civil penalty of $600 

13 and see whether or not a) the FAA has groun,ds to 

14 support that request, and b) whether you, as the 

15 responding litigant, has grounds to suggest that it 

16 should be different. And that's what we're going to 

17 go forward on now, with the greatest respect to your 

18 unhappiness with the prosecution and I think with your 

19 unhappiness that I have made a finding that the 

20 violations did in fact occur 

21 MR. TICE: Well, ma'am. I am not unhappy 

22 with the finding at all. That does not bother me . 

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THE COURT: Okay. Well, you could be 

2 unhappy and I would accept that, you know. 

3 MR. TICE: No. The violations have 

4 occurred. They were not severe at all. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't we do this, 

6 it's five to noon. We're running out of time again. 

7 I am going to wait to address the issue of venue until 

8 after I hear oral argument on the motion regarding the 

9 penalty, unless the parties would like me to set 

10 another conference time within the next two to three 

11 weeks. I can finish up with venue and set a hearing 

12 if you'd like. I'll start with you, Mr. Sargent. 

13 What is your preference? 

14 MR. SARGENT: I don't have any issue to 

15 addressing the issue of venue during our next 

16 conference, whenever that may be. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Tice, any preference? 

18 MR. TICE: No, I have no preference. I 

19 would like for you to clarify something and I 

20 apologize to you because I think you have maybe tried 

21 to do this and I'm just not getting it, but can you 

22 clarify to me what options are available to argue that 

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1 there should not be a fine ln this matter? 

2 Did you say that I can address the severity 

3 of the offense and whether anyone was actually 

4 endangered or did you say that I couldn't? 

5 THE COURT: I said that there are nine 

6 different factors that the regulations allow in 

7 looking at how to assess a civil penalty and how to 

8 defend against it and part of those nine factors 

9 include providing or making arguments that there are 

10 mitigating factors. Now, the fact that you believe 

11 personally that this isn't serious isn't something 

12 that I have adopted. 

13 MR. TICE: I understand that and I'm not 

14 trying to base it on that. I'm not. 

15 THE COURT: So what I'm saying is that once 

16 you get that pdf document, which is the sanction 

17 policies of the FAA, that may start you thinking, as 

18 you read through it, about the different defenses that 

19 you might want to raise in objecting to this $600 

20 proposed penalty, but I can't lead you to any one 

21 specific defense. That's up to you. 

22 MR. TICE: Okay. 

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THE COURT: Okay. Any other questions, "Mr. 

2 Tice, before we close today? 

3 MR. TICE: No. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Sargent, any other 

5 questions for your client? 

6 MR. SARGENT: No, Your Honor. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. Then I will issue a 

8 written ruling of about what we just talked about. 

9 Folks, I'm going to ask you to be prepared at the next 

10 conference to talk about -- I don't want to give up my 

11 one hour for the argument. We may end up setting 

12 another conference after that to address the issue of 

13 venue and the actual litigation if we go to that 

14 point. 

15 So for the October 10, 2013 oral argument, 

16 let's plan on just using that time or oral argument on 

17 the issue of penalty. If we have a little time within 

18 that one hour we can address some of these other 

19 things. If we don't, then we'll set something out 

20 

21 

22 

within two to three weeks of October 10, 2013 to 

address everything else. 

With that, I want to thank everybody for 

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1 your presence today. It appears that our business is 

2 complete. We can go off the record and I wish you all 

3 a good day and a good weekend. 

4 (Whereupon, at 11:58 a.m., the 

5 proceedings were concluded.) 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 

3 I, GERVEL A. WATTS, the officer before whom the 

4 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that 

5 the testimony that appears in the foregoing pages was 

6 recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said deposition is a true 

8 record of the proceedings; that I am neither counsel 

9 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 

10 the action in which this deposition was taken; and 

11 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 

12 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, 

13 nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome 

14 of this action. 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

lLu&_llll olt_L 

GERVEL A. WATTS 

Notary Public ln and for the 

District of Columbia 

22 My Commission expires: January 31, 2014 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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Capital Reporting Company 

In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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Capital Reporting Company 

In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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Capital Reporting Company 

In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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In Re: Scott Tice 06-13-2013 

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