Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access 

Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the Rooms and Spaces 

Subcommittee Meeting #5 and is generally unedited. The CART 

system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with 

hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time 

and available to the public on the internet during the meeting. 

CART Operator: Sandra Gartrell

Thursday, October 16, 2014

United States Access Board

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee

Rooms and Spaces Subcommittee Meeting #5

1:00 p.m.

PAUL BEATTY: Good afternoon. This is the fifth meeting of 

the Room and Spaces Subcommittee. As you know, anyone may 

participate in subcommittee discussions; therefore, no time of public 

comment has been scheduled during this two-hour call. 

I understand we have the CART system chat box operating. 

So if you are only using CART to participate and you desire to raise 

a question or make a statement, please use the chat box to indicate 

your question or statement and we will read it into the system.

Please remember to give your name when speaking. One of 

your agenda items is to schedule your next meeting, which would be 
potentially November 20, but that will be nailed down later in this call.

Those in the room are Jim Pecht, Melissa Anderson, Lisa 

Fairhall, myself, and Rose Marie Bunales. 

And, Rose Marie, will you indicate who is on the line.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Yes, and what I have in the 

CART room first is Uwe Rutenberg and Jose Vega. And on the line 

I have Judith Buckley. Judith, can you repeat your name and the 

organization you are from. 

JUDITH BUCKLEY: Judith Buckley, New York Transit 

Authority.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: And, Sandra, if the line needs to 

be boosted let the operator know.

Gricelda Cespedes? 

GRICELDA CESPEDES: Yes. New Jersey Transit 

Authority.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Blair Slaughter? 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yes.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Dennis Cannon? 

DENNIS CANNON: Dennis Cannon, National Disability 

Rights Network.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: And we have Jose Vega. 

JOSE VEGA: Yes, hello. Jose Vega from MTA, Long Island 

Railroad.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: And we have Sandra Gartrell.
And I have David Nelson from Amtrak. David, can you 

please repeat your name and the organization.

DAVID NELSON: Yes. This is David Nelson with Amtrak. 

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: And the line is good. 

We will turn the call to Dennis Cannon, the chair of the 

subcommittee.

DENNIS CANNON: I hope everybody can hear me well. My 

Skype decided -- I'm calling on my cellphone, speakerphone, let's 

hope you can hear me.

My Skype decided it didn't want to work today.

CART REPORTER: You're coming in and out.

DENNIS CANNON: Sorry, but this is the best that I can do.

We got a number of things to do, one of which is to make 

some corrections to our earlier report. Let's start with the agenda 

we have got. We have introductions; we want to review some 

revisions to the subcommittee report; there is another, "controls and 

operating mechanisms;" we need to set the next meeting and 

adjourn.

Anyone want to add anything to the agenda?

Hearing nothing, let's go to the restroom report. The same as 

what we presented to the full committee with some revisions.

During the full committee meeting we talked about things like 

(inaudible) frame and so forth.

Linda Martin from FRA said that she thought there may be 
some problems with the statute, that the statute wouldn't allow us to 

do that. So I went back and looked at the statute and there is a 

whole section on inner-city rail. And what it says about inner-city rail 

is in order for it to be accessible, the inner-city rail car must have

space for a wheelchair to seat, transfer space and a restroom.

The statute also defines inner-city rail as being Amtrak. So 

those provisions apply to Amtrak. In other words, an Amtrak car to 

be accessible has to have a restroom in it. And the only exceptions 

are dining cars and lounge cars, which do not have restrooms to the 

public. All the other coach cars has got to have a restroom in order 

to be deemed accessible. 

The provision we talked about in fixed, don't have a restroom 

public. You don't need to have an accessible, which is true for inner 

rail. Doesn't apply to Amtrak. 

What I have done is changed the scoping to make that clear 

that the provision we were talking about -- sorry, Amtrak for picking 

on you. So I have added some things in red. I don't know 

whether -- I guess the red is showing up on the screen here.

But it starts out saying, "For each new Amtrak car, shall have 

a restroom meeting the technical requirements". And so forth and 

then it goes on to what we said before, restrooms to public are not 

provided in the car, are not provided, not are provided. I have to 

change that.

And then it says a car other than provided by Amtrak, so forth. 
And then at the bottom I have added "not provided by Amtrak." And 

at the bottom, the last line, which had originally talked about controls 

and surface requirements, I added a line that meets the surface 

requirement from the surface path, is now a recommendation for 

surfaces requirement added to the circulation report.

So that is the question -- does anyone have any questions 

about those changes? 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Dennis, this is Blair from Amtrak. 

And Linda is on the line too, right, from FRA?

PAUL BEATTY: No. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Sorry, I thought I heard her on the line 

before. 

Here is my question, Dennis, and we talked about and what 

I'm worried about. This is what we will get up against on a couple of 

fronts. And I think, and I have to go and dig up the plans, but I think 

we have a condition in some of our Talgo cars because they are 

essentially like half a regular car where we have sort of the condition 

that we talked about whether there is not a restroom necessarily in 

each one of those vehicles. And I don't know if that is the case. 

We are operating under some guidance from the FRA on that. I

suspect we are.

The other thing is when we single out Amtrak we are talking 

about inner-city. That is the way it was defined. I think what we will 

run up against somewhere in here is when a lot of this language was 
originally drafted, it was in requirements or in the statute or however 

it was setup, is now we have PRIIA, which sort of lays the 

groundwork for other companies, other organizations, other states to 

inner-city business.

And if you narrow it down on one side, it may leave some 

gaping holes on the other side, you know, in the future.

So I -- I think we need to do some clarification on that and 

what impact PRIIA may have so we don't box everyone into a bad 

corner.

The other thing is I think we should have some more 

conversation with the FRA about -- we talked about before with 

permanent cars that have a good pathway between them. Again, I 

think with all the competing demands for space in the vehicle, 

specially adding more accessible seating space and things like that, 

it eases the pain and the revenue pressure if we can consider things 

like that. 

We are sort of making the most of all the space and all the 

machinery and technology by doing, you know, what works versus 

being too boxed in.

So it may be that ultimately we need some clarification or 

some guidance that comes down from the DOT to help out with that.

I realize we cannot solve all of that here at once on the 

RVAAC side, but I think it would be worth our time to raise the issue 

with the FRA and see what we can come up with.
DENNIS CANNON: My understanding is that Talgo got kind 

of a dispensation because of the fact they are so small.

The question is, did that violate the statute. And I don't have 

the answer to that. I'm not an attorney.

But, apparently, FRA gave some kind of easement to that 

issue. So it needs to have a definition. I'm not sure that -- my 

guess is that will come up when the board actually tries to write 

regulation. I'm not sure what we, as a committee, should be doing. 

That is an issue that others are pursuing and presumably we 

may get an answer before we are done here, I hope. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I just wanted to throw that out there 

and I appreciate your consideration. 

DAVID NELSON: I have a question. Unfortunately the 

statute they say must be one per car for the restroom issue.

What I wanted to ask the disability community who use the 

accessible restrooms, is it necessary to have one per car or should 

we have one every other car if we can provide easy access from a 

car that might not have it? Should we approach FRA about this or?

DENNIS CANNON: The current warning of this provision 

restricts it to fixed constant trains because they are the only ones 

that are really going to have the pathway that is going to allow you 

easily between cars. I don't think we want to consider the idea that 

you have to go from one car to the next to the restroom when it is 

underway. That is one of the big issues.
Whether the statute, whether FRA can ease the requirements 

is a question that I think FRA and the attorneys have to answer and I 

don't think we can answer it now.

DAVID NELSON: No. I guess it was -- I guess, what I'm 

trying to say is from what I catch is that you would prefer not to 

because there might be issues from going from one car to the next, 

so it is best not to even consider having one accessible restroom 

every other car. You represent the group, not me. So I appreciate 

that. Thank you.

DENNIS CANNON: One issue that was raised during the 

discussion of this with Steny Hoyer and the group and the group that 

put together the warning is how many restrooms you need in the car. 

And Amtrak at that time was adamant there had to be two.

There was some discussion from some folks, why not have 

just one accessible restroom instead of having two, because one of 

the issues is space.

I was thinking the other day, I think an Amtrak car has about 

80 seats, as I recall, Blair? 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Dennis, it varies. It was when we 

started first looking at the ADA. We had a maximum of 84 seats 

and I think we are down to 72 or 74, depending on the car.

DENNIS CANNON: Yeah, and I was thinking a 747 has a lot 

more than that sharing one restroom or two restrooms. So it seems 

to me that the idea that you have to have two doesn't really hold 
water. And, besides, you can always go to another car, which you 

can't very well do in an airplane. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: We are actually looking at the single 

level trains on the corridor to sort of refigure which actual restroom 

usage is just for those reasons, Dennis, to see if we have one nice 

accessible restroom. Does that take care of -- and when I say "a 

nice accessible restroom," that the system aspect of the toilet system 

has capacity and everything to go right along with that. Do we really 

need two? And some of the initial research says, no, that we don't.

DENNIS CANNON: That is not for us to decide. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: We are looking at it because of all the 

pressures we have on space within the vehicles and we may try it 

out and find out it is horrible. I think that in the future you may see 

only one restroom per car, depending on the service that the car is 

in.

DENNIS CANNON: Okay. So we need some clarification 

for FRA on some of those points. But let me go down further in that 

same document. And one of the issues was the restroom -- where 

is the restroom?

Side transfer, which we want to try to get in the restroom.

One of the things that used to be in the old uniform accessible 

standard and in the old ADAAG, there was a drawing that had a 

water closet and then a dash line that indicated a lav besides it and it 

didn't really work because you couldn't get a side transfer and we 
hated it and got rid of it in the new ADA guidelines. It specified a 

minimum clear space between the water closet and any obstruction.

So I'm thinking that we probably specify that, which is to say 

you have to have the 32 x 54 cleared floor space beside the water 

closet. So we clearly say you can't put things in the way of that 

clear floor space. And the space, if we get a chance to look at some 

of the photographs that Ken has provided, which we will get to later, 

there is one configuration of the restroom that shows a water closet 

and right beside it is an open space beside it. But on the wall 

beside it is a trash receptacle that pulls the wall out. So you couldn't 

really back your wheelchair up close enough to the water closet to 

make the side transfer.

So I think that we may want to say that the 32 x 54 space has 

to start at the back wall, same wall as the water closet. It has to be 

clear 32-inches beside it and 54-inches from the back wall forward 

so we can get our wheelchair to make a side transfer.

Does that fit with people's ideas? Good idea or what? 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: In that case how do those numbers

line up with what we find in architecture?

DENNIS CANNON: I don't have ADAAG. I think it is more 

like 44, is my recollection. There is somebody from the board that 

knows precisely what that is that is in the room?

JIM PECHT: I don't think there is an exact number. It 

depends on the number you specify.
DENNIS CANNON: I was thinking 32 x 54 for the cars 

because we are restricted more in doing things anyway.

<<<: And the 54 gives more maneuvering room, obviously, 

certainly more than the 48.

DENNIS CANNON: Anybody have any objections to adding 

that to the side transfer provision? Okay.

The other issue was grab bars. We said use the building 

facility requirement. And I had neglected to add in there -- because 

people had talked about vertical grab bars -- we don't have anything 

in ADA nor vertical grab bars. I think it has been decided in ANSI as 

vertical grab bar. I think we should add they should look for the 

ANSI standard for guidance as well. Any objection to that?

Everybody is so talkative today. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I actually think that is a good idea. 

So complete silence.

DENNIS CANNON: There are a lot of restrooms in cars and, 

in fact, you have vertical grab bars and every time I have been there 

I have been very thankful that they have been there.

And that, I believe, is -- let me see. Do I have anything else?

Oh, yeah, one clarification. In the sleeping compartment we 

had a note that said use the VIA-rail design as a model and then Bob 

Carlson said that he didn't like the design and Uwe pointed out the 

old real rail design and the real rail design we are talking about is the 

new one. And I had it there to clarify so other configurations can 
work as well.

So we didn't want to limit it to only that particular design.

And I wanted to make it clear that we are not talking about the 

old design, but we are talking about this probability ultimately. 

Instead of saying rear design, we should give that figure a number or 

a name, refer directly to it instead of using VIA rail. Any comments 

about that? We will make that change.

And there is the diagram right below. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I'm looking at the VIA rail again and 

their configuration -- because it sort of has an L configuration in the 

seats, it looks like, in the room. And then the -- I'm trying to figure 

out how the entrance and everything is working.

There is some conditions in vehicles where the exact 

configuration may not work. I think if we can somehow word things 

or do something as an example, but make sure we preserve the 

functional requirements, we won't restrict some creative thinking 

down the path.

DENNIS CANNON: And that is why I added the thing about 

other designs. And I want to say this is A.V configuration.

I have also been told by Uwe that that L-shaped is not the 

latest design. They removed the second part of it so it is like the 

current.

UWE RUTENBERG: Yes, Dennis, that is correct. I don't 

know if you can hear me.
DENNIS CANNON: Yes.

UWE RUTENBERG: Yeah, we are actually doing a trial run 

at the moment. There was a lady using a power chair and we took 

her from Toronto to Vancouver on a couple of days trip to use the 

new sleeper room and we will get some feedback over the next little 

while and I will pass this on to you to see what worked and what 

didn't work. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Uwe, just for clarity, as I'm looking at 

the plan for the room, there is the entrance door and then it looks like 

there may be a door or curtain or some separator between the 

restroom and hallway portion and the bedroom proper.

UWE RUTENBERG: Yes, it is actually a power sliding door. 

If you look at the drawing right now, say, on the north side, it is the 

opening for the door and the door slides toward the south side into a 

pocket. And it is power assisted.

DAVID NELSON: I wanted to ask about which exact or what 

type of VIA rail car are you talking about? I wanted to look it up on 

the website.

UWE RUTENBERG: It is called the HEP part car.

DAVID NELSON: Okay. Thank you. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Along with that is our existing deluxe 

rooms have a toilet/shower combination where the seat, if you want 

a way to sit down for an ambulatory person, is actually the closed 

toilet, which is much like what you find in a lot of RVs and things like 
that.

Is there anything in the -- again, I'm looking at the 

shower/toilet annex to the bedroom. Is there anything that would 

preclude doing something like that where if you created a proper side 

transfer situation for the toilet, if that doubled as the shower seat. It 

would seem like it might free up some maneuvering space in the 

room as well.

UWE RUTENBERG: I don't know. That is a possibility.

What we looked at also is the fact that some people actually 

transfer into what we call an onboard shower chair. Instead of using 

the seat, they have a chair that you can actually roll into the shower 

and you flip up the seat and then the shower is sitting in the chair.

What you are proposing, use the toilet seat the same as the 

flip-up seat?

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Right. And the reason I say that is 

obviously there is spacial impact. Looks like from the photographs if 

you flip up the shower seat then you can get in there with a shower 

chair.

UWE RUTENBERG: Exactly. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: So okay. That is where we have our 

new cars. We have a separate, completely separate shower room. 

It is not a dual function; it is simply a shower. We don't have that 

condition now.

I'm just trying to think down the road when we are looking at 
new vehicles and configurations, how we consider those things.

And that brings up a very good point. Do we want to say 

something about the shower being accessible using a shower chair,

Dennis? Do we want to go that far? I have not encountered 

anyone who actually carried a shower chair onboard a train, because 

most -- well, our single level equipment is usually just an overnight 

situation, anyway.

Any thoughts on that?

DENNIS CANNON: Yeah. The problem -- I mean, some 

people use shower chairs. The problem with the shower chairs you 

end up with a wet chair and you are sitting in water. The idea of 

trying to get dry and transferring into your regular chair is usually not 

very convenient for lots of people.

So I would think that that might be something that somebody 

would do if they wanted to take along their own shower chair. But 

I'm not convinced that is the kind of thing that people are willing to do 

very often.

As far as using the toilet seat, in this particular configuration, 

you can get a side transfer to the wheelchair. You can get it out the 

side of the water closet and make the direct transfer.

The only question I would have, I guess, would be the seat 

itself, whether it is typically they are rounded, whereas shower seats 

are concave, rather than convex.

The ability to grab handrails and so forth, that is a design 
issue, which I think could be worked out. I don't have any particular 

issue with using water closet as the shower chair. I think that might 

be okay. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think it would depend -- if I use this 

example. If that water closet, instead of being sort of looking like a 

typical water closet, if the space that is in the off-side corner was 

actually closed in. So if you imagine there is a deck, a seat that is 

all the way across there and it has a lid on it, that gives you access 

to the water closet itself.

When you make your side transfer, you are also making a 

side transfer, then, to the shower seat. Whereas in this design, your 

transfer to the shower seat is 180-degree, perhaps, or 90-degree, at 

least, to get into the shower seat.

Again, I want to make sure we don't box ourselves out of 

doing some potentially creative and very accessible conditions in the 

future.

UWE RUTENBERG: I think I agree with what Blair is saying. 

Don't forget this is only one of probably many examples of what you 

can do. That is not to say the design is cast in stone.

As I mentioned before, we are trying this out with the different 

subjects right now. And there is a possibility that, you know, some 

things might work and others might not.

So I mention it only here as an example. And I'm sure there 

are other ideas and probably layouts that would work as well, you 
know, as Dennis and Blair mentioned.

Maybe the use of the toilet as a seat would work also.

DENNIS CANNON: One of the issues, this particular 

arrangement shows it longitudinally, I guess, along the length of the 

car. Whereas in the bilevel sleepers, typically the accessible

compartment -- I don't know -- across the entire width. And I don't 

know how this works.

So obviously with some of those other designs, there is going 

to have to be some thought given to the designs.

I want to make sure -- we don't ever want to say "shall comply 

with this figure --"

UWE RUTENBERG: No, exactly.

DENNIS CANNON: -- in terms of the requirement. That is 

an example of how you can do it and meet the requirements. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I'm good with that. If there is any 

other dimensional requirements that need to be plugged into sort of 

ensure that, that would be great. Because I know we have got the 

existing, you know, the illustrations and things were in the existing 

ADA that sort of underdefined and haunted us ever since it was 

done.

So it is best to avoid those problems in the future, for sure.

DENNIS CANNON: Okay. I notice this is Figure 1 

identified. So probably in the report we should simply say "see 

Figure 1 for an example," and not even mention there is anything like 
standard.

UWE RUTENBERG: Can I just go back for one second to 

the technical requirements for the restroom.

You have as the first bullet the 60-inch turning circle.

DENNIS CANNON: Right.

UWE RUTENBERG: And you added there might be other 

possibilities that's usable. I totally agree.

Should we maybe add here also the fact a person in a 

wheelchair should be facing forward entering and exiting the 

washroom --

DENNIS CANNON: That is a good idea. I'm not sure that I 

would --

UWE RUTENBERG: -- or is that the wrong place here?

DENNIS CANNON: Personally I find the Acela restroom very 

accessible but it doesn't have a 60-inch turning circle. You can 

enter the Acela restroom forward and you can turn around with some 

maneuvering and exit forward.

I think that is a good idea and maybe a recommendation.

I'm not sure that is an absolute requirement, but it is a good 

idea, right. 

UWE RUTENBERG: The other point was on the -- let me 

see. On the same section under -- the second to last bullet, lavatory 

faucet controls. I think we should also put in there a bullet for the 

flush control for the water closet shall be located at the front or side 
within easy reach from the toilet. Because I have seen many times 

the flush control is behind the water closet and it is very difficult to 

reach.

DENNIS CANNON: I think that is a good idea.

UWE RUTENBERG: That is all I have for the section.

JOSE VEGA: I just have one question on the diagram. I

didn't see -- I am not sure, quite sure where the wash basin is in 

relation to the seat and access area and the bedroom and everything 

else.

UWE RUTENBERG: When you come in from the entrance, it 

is on the right-hand side. It is kind of a stretch rectangular area. If 

you look at the drawing it is on the north side, just when you come in 

and on the right side. It is a slim --

DENNIS CANNON: Right-hand corner.

JOSE VEGA: I see. The rectangular --

UWE RUTENBERG: Exactly.

JOSE VEGA: The piece next to the shower seat?

UWE RUTENBERG: No. You see the drawing of the 

person in the wheelchair?

JOSE VEGA: Yes.

UWE RUTENBERG: On the right-hand side.

JOSE VEGA: Oh, okay, adjacent where it says "car 

corridor."

UWE RUTENBERG: Correct.
JOSE VEGA: That is the wash basin area?

UWE RUTENBERG: Correct.

JOSE VEGA: I was not sure it was.

UWE RUTENBERG: It looks pretty slim. It was not very 

much room to position it in any other location.

JOSE VEGA: All right. Thank you, very much. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Jose, thanks for bringing that point up 

because we have been talking about in other meetings the sink 

being ideally accessible before you transfer from the toilet back to 

the wheelchair. Obviously that is going to force a transfer back to 

the wheelchair in order to wash your hands on the other side.

JOSE VEGA: I can see that from the diagram, your point, 

Blair.

DENNIS CANNON: We had said ideally the wash basin 

should be within reach of someone seated on the water closet. And 

the problem with that is what does "in reach" mean. If you put it too 

close, like the Acela has it on the side, but it is forward. So I'm not 

sure you can reach it while sitting on the water closet. If you move it 

back toward the water closet, you then wouldn't be able to approach 

it from your wheelchair, if you just wanted to wash your hands so.

So that is a tricky design issue and I'm not sure to say too 

much about it other than it would be nice to be within reach but I'm 

not sure that you can always do that. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. Just didn't want us to lose that.
DAVID NELSON: I know it has to come up like a sink near 

the water closet. But maybe if they do something like installing a 

hand sanitizer right next to the toilet, just in case. Does that make 

sense? So that the sink is so far away from the toilet than you 

would have that --

DENNIS CANNON: I'm not sure how you define it.

DAVID NELSON: Yeah. I guess it is a problem. Okay.

DENNIS CANNON: I think we have to leave it to the 

creativity of the designers to figure out how to put that all together.

If we are done with that, we can go to operating mechanism.

JIM PECHT: Before we go, can I ask a question?

DENNIS CANNON: Sure.

JIM PECHT: You recommended the vertical grab bar. I

assume it was for the toilet. Did you also intend one for the shower 

area?

DENNIS CANNON: I have not seen one that ANSI 

recommends. But actually in terms of rail cars, because they are 

moving, I think grab bars, you know, we want to specify maybe the 

minimum. But I actually think lots of grab bars is a good idea. And 

I like the vertical grab bars that are next to the sink in some of the 

restrooms, I'm not sure how to specify all of those, but my feeling is 

kind of the more the better.

JIM PECHT: The second question is you proposed addition 

of a 30 x 54 space next to the toilet.
DENNIS CANNON: Right.

JIM PECHT: And if you go down to the sleeping 

compartment, it says "side transfer to the toilet shower chair meet 

requirements for restrooms above." Did you intend the 30 x 54 to 

be parallel to the shower chair as well?

DENNIS CANNON: No. That design I couldn't figure out 

how to do that. But if we make the water closet the shower chair, 

then we sort of solve that problem.

But, you're right, you can't get a side transfer to that shower 

seat.

JIM PECHT: Okay. Just want to make sure you note that in 

your notes when you have the technical requirement. I figured that 

was the case, but I wanted to make sure.

Somebody just join or leave? 

<<<: This is Melissa Shurland from the FRA.

DENNIS CANNON: I don't see the operating mechanism 

parts, folks. Is it not on here?

JIM PECHT: You only sent me three things; the agenda, the 

picture and the list we just went over.

DENNIS CANNON: There was operating mechanism piece 

also.

JIM PECHT: I don't think you sent it.

DAVID NELSON: I didn't get that.

UWE RUTENBERG: No, it is not under the material that was 
on the net.

DENNIS CANNON: We won't go over it if we don't have it. I

don't know what happened.

I guess we can't do much about it. I guess the assignment is 

to send it out to everyone and ask everyone to look at it and 

comment on it at the next meeting. I don't know what to do. 

MELISSA ANDERSON: Did you have a question? 

Dennis, did you send it to me? I'm thinking it got put into last 

week's meeting material. 

DENNIS CANNON: No; I sent it to Paul.

UWE RUTENBERG: Can we talk about it at the next 

meeting? 

JIM PECHT: You want to talk about the issues generally, 

Dennis, and prep everyone for it?

DENNIS CANNON: Let me pull it out. What I did was took 

a bunch of things from bus rule and ADA accessibility guidelines and 

even the little piece from the 508 standards. I'm trying to get it here.

You can pull up the -- there is a link over there to the right. 

Pull out the proposed and you will see some issues about operating 

mechanisms that has a diagram of wheelchair seating next to 

a -- like the pull cord and whatever in a vehicle -- we talked about the 

provision, about the stopping provision applies and there is a 

definition of operable parts, which I'll read it to you. 

"A component of a device or system used to insert or 
withdraw objects, or to activate, deactivate, adjust, or connect to the 

device or system. Operable parts include, but are not limited to, 

buttons, levers, knobs, smart card targets, coin and card slots, 

pull-cords, jacks, data ports, electrical outlets, and touch screens." 

And it basically applies these controls to things that would be, in this 

case, endure hardware in the sleeping compartment, the controls of 

faucets, the HVAC control, all of those things to be within reach 

ranges to somebody seated in a wheelchair so you can get up. 

If you are familiar with the bilevel sleeping car currently, all of 

those controls are in the far corner over by the window and they are 

impossible to reach from somebody seated in the wheelchair. You 

have to actually sit, transfer into the chair and even then it is up 

behind you and to the left. And so there is very little ability to reach 

the controls.

I set the location -- and this comes from the proposed bus 

rule, as the height of the object shall be between 24 inches and 48 

inches maximum above the floor. The lateral position shall be 

maximum of 68 inches in front of or behind the center line of the 

wheelchair seating place, a clear floor space and seating 

compartment.

So you have the wheelchair seating space, you have the 

control, say, on a wall. They have to be between 24 and 48 inches 

above the floor. Laterally they have to be essentially at the center 

line at that space. So you don't have to reach back behind you, if 
you are seated there, and you don't have to reach too far in front of 

you to get it. Six inches is a guess. Maybe it is more than that. I

don't know what it might be. That will give you a foot lateral space. 

That may not be enough for all the controls you need.

I specified the thing about how far you have to reach, which 

this is from ADA accessibility guidelines again. A maximum of 10 

inches beyond the plane is defined by the side of the wheelchair. 

So you don't have to reach too far over things to get there.

Operable parts, controls -- I picked up the 12-inch minimum 

from an inside corner that was already in the restroom space 

requirement, the door, controls. I put in redundant controls are 

permitted. And you can have more than one set of controls, 

depending on -- you have a wireless or a wired remote device. If 

you wanted to, that would be useful to be able to get if you are in the 

bed; you can actually pull something over either remote. 

Wireless idea is a great idea but also the kind of thing that 

tends to wander away. So that may not be a good idea. But I 

wanted to make it clear you can have more than one control.

So you could have controls for the lights at the upper bunk, 

which is fine, as long as you have an actual set of controls to control 

the lights within the reach ranges.

And then we have the general condition about operable parts. 

Operable in one hand shall not require tight grasping, pinching or 

twisting of the wrist. Force, maximum of five pounds. Power door 
button shall be 2 inches across minimum. This is partly from the 

public rights-of-way. They need too be big enough where you can 

actually push them without the tiny little things that are on a lot of 

elevators that drive me nuts that you have to hit with your finger and 

push pretty hard.

Tactically discernable. I can't show you, but the control on 

my chair has seven buttons. They are on a membrane switch. 

That is the kind of thing you will frequently find on your microwave, 

but each one of them has a little ring around it that is raised so you 

can actually locate it by touch. And it doesn't have braille or 

anything on the controls to tell you which they are, but you can find 

them and you can find them without activating them. So that is an 

important feature for people who are blind and can't read it.

I also added they have to comply with 508 standards. I

pulled some of those out before and I think that is a good idea.

Two-state control, that is things like on/off, high/low. Should 

provide visually and tactically discernable indication of their state. 

So when I push the button on my power chair, it lights up and it 

beeps. I can't tell afterwards what state it is in at this point. There 

are controls, toggle switches you can tell if they are up or down. 

Button control, you push them in and they stay in and you push them 

again and pop out. Those are things you can actually tell which 

state they are in by feel. You don't have to see it in order to do that.

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Let me throw something out, if I can. 
I have heard different discussions in the past about membrane 

switches and touch switches and touches that don't give you any 

kind of active feedback. Some of the membrane switches actually 

they click, you know, you activate them, versus a touch switch. I

heard pros and cons on both of those.

But if you were looking at a mechanical switch, to your point, if 

you pushed it once and it changed its state from raised to depressed 

and you press it again and it changed the state back to wherever it 

was before, is that preferable to having some of these other things 

light up or that kind of situation?

DENNIS CANNON: That is one of the ways that tells you. I

am assuming there are other methods. My controls light up and 

beep when you turn them on. Again, unless I see that it is lit up, I 

can't tell after the fact whether it is on or off. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Okay. Obviously if you can touch it 

and tell what position it is in and don't have to depend on the light, 

that seems better. Because the switch is always going to be 

physically in one spot or another and you don't have to worry if the 

light burned out or if the person is blind or in some cases LEDs. 

Especially now we are finding that an LED that doesn't look 

like much during the day can really lighten up a room at night. So 

that may be worth considering as well. If it is a little indicator, if you 

are in a sleeping compartment, it could be the very thing that keeps 

you awake, other than the train bouncing around.
DENNIS CANNON: And I see some of those and you turn 

your head the wrong way and it feels like it is boring in the back of 

your head. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Yes. And those are the indicators.

DENNIS CANNON: So those are the things I put together. 

And, I'm sorry, we didn't get it out to you folks because I was pretty 

sure I included it, but apparently not.

We can send it out to everybody. It is not that long. It has 

one figure in it that, again, you can look at. If you call up the 

proposed rule, you will see the guy sitting in the chair at the side of a 

bus and it shows a large area for where the controls should be from 

a height standpoint. Doesn't have anything about the lateral 

position.

Those are the issues about controls and operating 

mechanisms and I guess we will just have to send you the 

information to see later.

Back to the agenda, we are on to assignments. No, next 

steps.

I'm presuming that we still have things to clean up and discuss 

times. I'm not sure what other specific provisions we need to deal 

with.

Anybody have ideas about what things in the particular area 

we need to discuss. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: I think this might be the right place, 
and I read it in other parts of the regulation, it has be worth 

reiterating.

When we are talking about single access, water controls for 

faucets and things, you are going to be dealing with mixed hot and 

cold water. We want to set a water temperature. Obviously there 

needs to be a safe water temperature. But set a water temperature 

maximum and minimum for the hand washing water?

DENNIS CANNON: Good question.

UWE RUTENBERG: We actually did this in our train. We 

set the temperature so you cannot burn your hands. I think it was 

like 35-degrees, whatever that is, Fahrenheit. I don't know. But it 

is a range where you cannot burn your hands because I think that is 

a very important part because some people don't have a good 

feeling in their hands and they might not be able to, you know, feel 

when the water is too hot.

DAVID NELSON: Dennis, you had talked about the different 

types of operating control mechanisms. Now, did you quote that 

from the ADA regulation or is that ADAAG?

DENNIS CANNON: I cobbled them together. I took parts 

from the proposed bus rule. I took parts from the ADA accessibility 

guidelines, the new ones, and I took a couple from the 508 

standards.

DAVID NELSON: Okay. Gotcha. I'm a little bit concerned, 

this might be a one-time proposed rulemaking that may not be 
touched for another 20 or 30 years or so. While ADAAG is -- well, 

hopefully ADAAG is updated more frequently.

My question is should we refer people to ADAAG rather than 

pulling all the information together?

I just want to hear your view on the pros and cons of that.

DENNIS CANNON: Yeah. In general most people don't like 

to have multiple documents that they have to refer back and forth to. 

Most designers of rail cars aren't going to likely have a copy of the 

building and facilities standards. They are going have to go find 

them somewhere.

One of the things we did in writing the original vehicle was to 

do a lot of redundancy, but then people complained about that too.

But the idea was if you are building a commuter rail car, you 

didn't have to pull up even the rapid rail section or anything; you had 

a complete document all yourself.

I'm inclined to think we don't necessarily want to refer back to 

the building facilities. I, for one thing, it doesn't include all of these 

things. Some of the building facilities standards in terms of the 

heights of controls is different from what I think it should be in the 

vehicles.

So I understand the idea of not upgrading and not being able 

to refresh them quickly, but that is true of ADA, the building and 

facilities standards as well.

DAVID NELSON: Okay. We have no idea what the future 
of DOT is going to look like and it is unfortunate. Unlike airlines, the 

Air Carrier Access Act, they update it more frequently and they 

refresh it, whichever you want to call it.

I just wish there was language or a statute in the ADA saying 

that rail vehicles have to be reviewed every 10 years, or something 

like that. But, you know, it is just not there.

DENNIS CANNON: Right. Trying to set a standard for 

when that is going to happen in the federal government is probably 

pointless. Even in the private sector the ANSI standard setting 

agencies have -- and the building codes have a general rule that 

they review and update every five years, but they often do not meet 

that requirement.

So I'm not sure that you can say that is likely to happen in the 

federal government with all of the changes in administrations and 

rules and Executive Order changes, the change with the regulatory 

assessment requirements from one year to the next.

So I would love for that to be a requirement, but I don't think 

that is likely.

DAVID NELSON: And then, Dennis -- I am trying to 

remember. It has been probably many years ago, I read something. 

I think it was the FCC, possibly, FCC regulations and they had 

referred to, I think, an organization or something like that. And that 

organization has a list of specs or best practices. And that 

organization, I think, was a customer organization, like a customer 
advocacy organization. So maybe I'm wrong because it was so 

many years ago.

But do you know of any government agency that typically 

refers to an outside private organization, best practice or, you know, 

white paper or -- do you know what I mean?

DENNIS CANNON: In general, the board has several 

resources, things that were put out by the American Society of 

Interior Designers, I think, that talks about signage and good 

practices. And you can't actually require anybody to do those, but 

you can list those resources so people can look at them.

Some of the things in 508 refer to the WC3 Working Group, 

which is standards for worldwide web. There are references 

occasionally to Trace Design Center that is doing a lot of work on 

controls and operating mechanisms. You can't require them 

because they are private sector.

There is a rule in the federal government that says if there is a 

private sector standard that meets the requirement of the statute that 

you are reporting, that you are supposed to use that standard and 

incorporate by reference.

Many of the standards out there don't necessarily meet all of 

the requirements of the statute, like building codes, for example, they 

will cover all the things that the ADA accessibility guidelines do.

So there is a rule in general that you are supposed to 

reference or rather incorporate by reference.
One of the problems with that is you have to incorporate is the 

particular version of that standard that is in effect at the time it 

happens. You can't say "shall comply with the latest version of" 

because that would give the private sector, essentially, rulemaking 

authority.

So you can get locked into those same kinds of problems and 

we have state codes all over the country that are referencing their 

own ANSI, their own building codes that are way out of date. And, 

unfortunately, they can't -- unless the legislature or the city council, 

or whatever, gets an update, we don't get updated either.

D.C. for example, the fire code has the International Fire Code 

as the fire code. Well, that is 14 years old. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: What I would like to throw out -- and 

you touched on it just now with the industry organization. If we look 

at APTA one of the things that APTA grabbled with is signage and 

laid groundwork for the glow in the dark, emergency critical signs 

and things like that.

And what happens is the FRA has language, I think, largely in 

238 that things that are generated by the industrial organization and 

accepted by the organization and industry are included by default in 

the CFR.

So that may be for accessibility something we need to open 

up with APTA as a way of having a more fluid and chargeable 

condition going forward that is bracketed, maybe on the extremes on 
what happens on the government end so we don't have to wait for 10 

years or some extreme number of years to get changes made and 

let those run through the industry organization. And then it gets a 

good hearing as well. That would seem like a good thing to do.

DAVID NELSON: I do have a little bit of a concern like that. 

Because APTA typically is run more by the board, which is made up 

of people in transit fields, whereas there is probably no people with 

disabilities involved. I'm talking more of the national board. They 

may have Bob Carlson working there, but he is at the board's 

discretion of making decisions.

I mean, I don't know how Bob -- say after Bob leaves, then 

who is it? So there are pros and cons here. If we could say APTA 

and a specific disability group. I don't know.

DENNIS CANNON: We certainly want the board to include in 

its reference material anything that looks good. But probably I won't 

go on my own thing here about APTA. I was involved in one of the 

committees early on that was supposedly writing rules for 

accessibility and frankly I was not impressed. I'll leave it at that and 

say that is not necessarily -- APTA is good on lots of things but it is 

not necessarily good on accessibility.

LISA FAIRHALL: One of the things we need to look at before 

we are able to incorporate standards by references, whether it 

complied with the requirements under the National Technology 

Transfer Act, which was the authority that Dennis was referring to, 
that let's us incorporate -- gives the preference by incorporating by 

reference.

And one of the critical aspects we would need to look at is 

whether the organization was a voluntary standard setting 

organization. And I don't know if APTA falls in that category.

The other thing we would look at is the maturity of the 

standard, the finality of the standard.

So those are things we would need to look at before we were 

able to incorporate anything by reference. So just putting that down 

as a marker.

DENNIS CANNON: Right. I think we want to say from the 

standpoint of the committee that we certainly want the board to find 

whatever documents, best practices, whatever that it can on the 

subject and make those links to those reports and whatever on its 

website.

But the issue whether something should be incorporated by 

reference, I think is left up to the board went it does its rulemaking.

Okay. So where are we? Assignments, I guess, is to read 

that thing that I didn't.

And next meeting. The next meeting would be in -- get my 

calendar year. This is the 16th of October. If you look at 

November, you have got -- you want to keep it on a Thursday? We 

have the 13th and the 20th of November. And I don't know maybe if 

somebody like Jim can tell us if there are other subcommittees that 
have picked dates already. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Dennis, I bumped into my "low bidder 

telephone" and it disconnected.

So, Jim, can you tell us if any of the other committees have 

picked -- actually the 6th, the 14 and the 20th. You know if other 

committees have already picked dates.

JIM PECHT: The 6th and 12th are taken. The 20th is open.

DENNIS CANNON: We are not going to do it on 

Thanksgiving. So that is the only date we have left. Anybody have 

a problem of setting the 20th of November? 

UWE RUTENBERG: Twentieth of November is fine with me.

JOSE VEGA: Twentieth of November is fine with me.

DENNIS CANNON: Okay. Hearing no violent objections, 

we will make it the twentieth for Rooms and Spaces, same time, 

same channel, right. 

<<<: Yes. 

BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Sounds good.

DENNIS CANNON: And, unfortunately, I think you are done 

because you didn't get that document.

UWE RUTENBERG: Are you going to email it to us?

DENNIS CANNON: Sorry? I didn't catch that.

UWE RUTENBERG: The document that you prepared, are 

you emailing it to us?

DENNIS CANNON: Yes. I think that is a good idea. Can I 
give it to Paul and Jim and have you send it out? 

JIM PECHT: Sure. We can do that.

DENNIS CANNON: So is that all we need to do today, folks? 

MELISSA ANDERSON: Dennis, are you going to be at 

whatever phone number Jim has for you in 15 minutes or so?

(Off-the-record discussion) 

UWE RUTENBERG: Thanks, very much, Dennis.

<<<: Bye.

ROSE MARIE BUNALES: Thank you, operator for your 

help today. We are adjourned. Please disconnect all lines. 

(Whereupon, at 2:26 p.m. the meeting was adjourned)