‐‐‐‐‐Original Message‐‐‐‐‐ 

From: Simmons, Chuck [mailto:Chuck.Simmons@pgnmail.com]  

Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 11:34 AM

To: 'Kenneth Winder'; 'Jerry Hodge'

Cc: 'Richard Parker'; 'phopkinson@hvolt.com'; 'Meyers, Aaron';

'adelaski@standardsasap.org'; 'ahofmann@publicpower.org'; Aris Marantan;

'artrosenfeld@gmail.com'; 'august.esch@gmail.com'; 'BermanEconomics@gmail.com';

Brian Coffey; 'bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com'; 'bsmith@federalpacific.com';

'cabolduc@lbl.gov'; Caitlin Johnson; 'carlos.gaytan@ge.com';

'carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com'; 'chad.kennedy@us.schneider‐electric.com';

'charlied@uus.org'; 'clark.silcox@nema.org'; 'cstephens@neea.org';

'Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov'; 'dave.millure@metglas.com'; 'DYoung@energy‐

solution.com'; 'eduardorobles@eaton.com'; 'Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com';

'gbf1@pge.com'; 'gjrosenquist@lbl.gov'; 'greg.coulter405@gmail.com';

'James.Lass@cleco.com'; 'Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov';

'Jeremiah.Freeman@ee.doe.gov'; 'jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com';

'jerry.schoen@aksteel.com'; 'Jim.creevy@nema.org'; 'Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov';

'jmauer@standardsasap.org'; 'john.caskey@nema.org'; 'john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.gov';

'jrossetti@mlgw.org'; 'kcoughlin@lbl.gov'; 'maheshsampat@bellsouth.net';

'mark.stoering@xcelenergy.com'; Matthew Nardotti; 'maxinesavitz@aol.com';

'mhyland@appanet.org'; Michael Rivest; 'mwaltner@nrdc.org';

'Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com'; 'phil@pjharter.com'; 'pkumar@publicpower.org';

'Raymond.Polinski@atimetals.com'; 'rgreeson@federalpacific.com';

'rick.anderson@faypwc.com'; 'robert.saint@nreca.coop';

'robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov'; 'rroy@nrdc.org'; 'ScottB@lvmetals.com';

'snadel@aceee.org'; 'srosenstock@eei.org'; 'tballo@earthjustice.org';

'Teckman@nwcouncil.org'; 'thomas.patzner@us.schneider‐electric.com';

'vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com'; Zhimei Luo; 'cabolduc@lbl.gov'

Subject: RE: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole

The joint use agreement that Progress Energy uses would require that Progress

Energy pay the costs for any pole change‐out due to a heavier transformer

requiring a more substantial pole 99% of the time unless the existing pole is

rated for the new (heavier) transformer minus the joint users, and once the joint

users include their loading to the pole, the pole becomes insufficient ‐ in which

case the joint user is technically responsible for the cost.   

I agree with Bob Smith and Bruce Hirsch in that an expense is an expense.     

As far as the expense to change out a pole, Progress Energy costs range from

$2,200 for the change‐out of a pole with one primary phase conductor and only a

transformer and overhead service.  The upper end would be $3,700 for a pole that

has three primary phase conductors, a 3‐phase transformer bank (3 transformers),

and some other equipment such as a street light, underground services, etc.  It

is hard to determine an average cost, but I would feel that $2,700 is probably

close.

I will be forwarding Progress Energy's pole loading guidelines shortly to the

folks at LBL and Navigant.  It is a single‐page document that they can use to
assess when a pole needs to be changed out.  Hopefully, they will consider

single, double and three transformer installations as users see each most likely.

Regards,

Chuck Simmons, P.E.

Distribution Standards

Progress Energy

Voice Net:   745‐6033

Bell:                919‐662‐6033

‐‐‐‐‐Original Message‐‐‐‐‐ 

From: Kenneth Winder [mailto:kwinder@mleainc.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:59 AM

To: Jerry Hodge

Cc: Richard Parker; phopkinson@hvolt.com; Meyers, Aaron;

adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahofmann@publicpower.org; amarantan@navigant.com;

artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com; BermanEconomics@gmail.com;

brian.coffey@navigant.com; bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; bsmith@federalpacific.com;

cabolduc@lbl.gov; Caitlin.Johnson@navigant.com; carlos.gaytan@ge.com;

carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider‐electric.com;

charlied@uus.org; Simmons, Chuck; clark.silcox@nema.org; cstephens@neea.org;

Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com; DYoung@energy‐solution.com;

eduardorobles@eaton.com; Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com;

gjrosenquist@lbl.gov; greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com;

Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Freeman@ee.doe.gov;

jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; jerry.schoen@aksteel.com;

Jim.creevy@nema.org; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov; jmauer@standardsasap.org;

john.caskey@nema.org; john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org;

kcoughlin@lbl.gov; maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.com;

matthew.nardotti@navigant.com; maxinesavitz@aol.com; mhyland@appanet.org;

mrivest@navigant.com; mwaltner@nrdc.org; Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com;

pkumar@publicpower.org; Raymond.Polinski@atimetals.com;

rgreeson@federalpacific.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com; robert.saint@nreca.coop;

robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org; ScottB@lvmetals.com;

snadel@aceee.org; srosenstock@eei.org; tballo@earthjustice.org;

Teckman@nwcouncil.org; thomas.patzner@us.schneider‐electric.com;

vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; zhimei.luo@navigant.com

Subject: Re: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole

Jerry:

Jerry and All:

     Thank you for your clarifying questions.  The estimate does not involve a

joint‐use pole.

     We have joint‐use agreements with telephone and cable TV companies, but

those joint‐use poles are generally confined to the communities we serve.  

Telephone in the area is almost exclusively underground outside of the

communities and to a major extent inside those communities.   

Density of customers outside of the communities does not justify cable TV service

per those companies, and therefore, everyone uses wireless (satellite TV service

or reception by antenna) in the rural areas.  We are almost the exclusive owner

of all poles in the area.
     The pole change out under the situation with additional users would

certainly complicate the change out and increase the costs, as you point out so

well.  Some of the costs may be collected from the other joint users per

agreement language, but usually the joint user must perform removal and re‐

installation at its expense.

     The driver of the change out is the heavier transformer, and since we are

the owner of the poles, we do not have a claim to share our cost of the pole

change out except through the monthly joint‐use fees (that they were paying for

the original pole attachment).

     I expect that change‐out estimates from other utilities, especially in

municipal and urban areas, will be able to shed more light on this subject

regarding joint‐user involvement and more specifically on how the replacement

costs rise for that situation.

Ken

On 10/20/2011 8:27 AM, Jerry Hodge wrote:

> Ken:

>

> Does your pole change out estimate include the costs incurred by the other

joint users of the pole such as the telephone or TV cable companies for

transferring their equipment from the old to the new pole?  Sometimes too, the

pole is owned by one of the other joint users and you may have to wait until they

can begin their work before the power co. can act.  Time is an important issue.  

All of this can add to the cost of change out.

>

> Jerry

>

> Jerry Hodge

> Consulting Engineer, E.E., M.S., P.E.

> Retired V.P.&  G.M. of Pole Type Transformer&  Regulator Div.

> Howard Industries Inc.

> P.O.Box 1588

> Laurel, Ms, 39440

> 601 422‐1539 Bus.

> 484 226‐6190 Cell

>

>

>

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> ‐‐‐‐ 

> ‐‐‐‐‐Original Message‐‐‐‐‐ 
>

> From: Kenneth Winder [mailto:kwinder@mleainc.com]

> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 7:37 PM

> To: Richard Parker

> Cc: phopkinson@hvolt.com; Aaron.Meyers@cooperindustries.com;

> adelaski@standardsasap.org; ahofmann@publicpower.org;  

> amarantan@navigant.com; artrosenfeld@gmail.com; august.esch@gmail.com;  

> BermanEconomics@gmail.com; brian.coffey@navigant.com;  

> bruce.r.hirsch@bge.com; bsmith@federalpacific.com; cabolduc@lbl.gov;  

> Caitlin.Johnson@navigant.com; carlos.gaytan@ge.com;  

> carlosgsiqueiros@eaton.com; chad.kennedy@us.schneider‐electric.com;

> charlied@uus.org; chuck.simmons@pgnmail.com; clark.silcox@nema.org;  

> cstephens@neea.org; Daniel.Cohen@hq.doe.gov; dave.millure@metglas.com;  

> DYoung@energy‐solution.com; eduardorobles@eaton.com;  

> Eric.Petersen@aksteel.com; gbf1@pge.com; gjrosenquist@lbl.gov;  

> greg.coulter405@gmail.com; James.Lass@cleco.com;  

> Jennifer.Tiedeman@hq.doe.gov; Jeremiah.Freeman@ee.doe.gov;  

> jerry.corkran@cooperindustries.com; jerry.schoen@aksteel.com; Jerry  

> Hodge; Jim.creevy@nema.org; Jim.Raba@ee.doe.gov;  

> jmauer@standardsasap.org; john.caskey@nema.org;  

> john.cymbalsky@ee.doe.gov; jrossetti@mlgw.org; kcoughlin@lbl.gov;  

> maheshsampat@bellsouth.net; mark.stoering@xcelenergy.com;  

> matthew.nardotti@navigant.com; maxinesavitz@aol.com;  

> mhyland@appanet.org; mrivest@navigant.com; mwaltner@nrdc.org;  

> Paul.Ryan@hitmet.com; phil@pjharter.com; pkumar@publicpower.org;  

> Raymond.Polinski@atimetals.com; rgreeson@federalpacific.com;  

> richardparkerdc@gmail.com; rick.anderson@faypwc.com;  

> robert.saint@nreca.coop; robert.vanbuskirk@ee.doe.gov; rroy@nrdc.org;  

> ScottB@lvmetals.com; snadel@aceee.org; srosenstock@eei.org;  

> tballo@earthjustice.org; Teckman@nwcouncil.org;  

> thomas.patzner@us.schneider‐electric.com;  

> vijay.tendulkar@onyxpower.com; zhimei.luo@navigant.com; Chris Boulduc;  

> Ken Winder

> Subject: Replacement Cost for Transformer Pole

>

>

> Richard and Committee:

>       Attached is a spreadsheet showing the cost to replace an  

> existing pole in a three‐phase distribution circuit with an existing  

> single‐phase distribution transformer mounted on it.  This information  

> was developed to estimate the cost to replace an existing pole with a  

> new, higher strength pole required because of the increased weight of  

> the distribution transformer.  This estimate represents the cost to do  

> this for my Cooperative.

>       Other Utilities will be furnishing this information for their systems.

> Kenneth A. Winder, PE

>

>