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BEFOR E TH E DEPARTMEN T O F TRANSPORTATIO N

Docke t No . CP09WP00 8 Civi l Penalt yActio n DM S No . FAA-2009-010 3 I nth e Matte r of : FEDERA L AVIATIO N ADMINISTRATION , Complainant , vs. . GREA T LAKE S AVIATION , INC. , Respondent .

Courtroo mC50 2 Byro nG . Roger s U S Courthous e 192 9 Stou t Stree t Denver , Colorad o Wednesday , Marc h31 , 201 0 Th e above-entitle dmatte r cam e o nfo r hearing , pursuan t t o notice , a t 9:0 0 a.m . BEFORE : HON . RICHAR D GOODWI N

Administrativ e La wJudg e »i 2 C 3 c ^

O -n—id' i

r o C D 

## ^ 

## a s e n C O 

### iic) 0 r; '

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APPEARANCES : O nbehal f o f th e Complainant : SCOT T R . MORRIS , ESQ . Federa l Aviatio nAdministratio n Offic e o f Regiona l Counse l 160 1 Lin dAvenue , Southwes t Renton , Washingto n9805 7 425-227-141 7
O nbehal f o f th e Respondent : TIMOTH YR . THORNTON , ESQ . MATTHE WR . BRODIN , ESQ . Brigg s andMorga n 220 0 ID S Cente r 8 0 Sout h8t hStree t Minneapolis , Minnesot a 5540 2 612-977-840 0

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WITNESSE S Michae l Hulet t

EXHIBIT S INDE X

DIREC T CROS S REDIREC T RECROS S

40 1 45 4 47 8

48 3 MAR K REC D



# r ^ Complainant' s 2 0 2 4 Respondent ' s 1 1 0 40 6 46 4

42 7 42 7 48 7 48 7

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 PROCEEDING S (9:0 0 a.m. ) JUDG E GOODWIN : Stil l i ncross ? MR . THORNTON : Yes . JUDG E GOODWIN : Sir , yo u wan t t o retur nt o th e witnes s stand ? Remin dyo u tha t you'r e stil l unde r oath .

MR . THORNTON : Jus t fo r th e Court' s purposes , I' dlik e t o introduc e Mr . Dou g Voss , th e Chairma no f th e Boar do f Grea t Lake s Aviation ; Chuc k Howell , th e President ; Tor yMeisel , Directo r o f Operations ; an d Heathe r Halverson , Safet yDirector . I faile d t o poin t tha t ou t yesterday .

MR . MORRIS : Sir , befor e w e begin , coul dw e d o som e housekeeping ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Oh , sure . MR . MORRIS : Jus t a coupl e things . I believ e th e recor dshoul dreflec t tha t I hav e redacte dth e persona l informatio ntha t
wa s reference dyesterda yi nth e courtroo mi n C-20 .
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . Okay . MR . MORRIS : I d o no t believ e tha t ther e ar e others, bu t i f ther e are , obviously , it' s no t myinten t t o provid e p'^rsona l information .

JUDG E GOODWIN : No . I understand , an dI appreciat e that . An dwha t I'l l do , gentlemen , i f i nmyrevie wI fin dsomething , I'l l jus t - - I won' t d o i t formally ; I'l l jus t
sendyo u a ne-mai l andsay . Pag e such-and-suc h exhibit s we'v e redacted .

MR . MORRIS : Okay . MR . THORNTON : An dI looke dtoo , Judge . I didn' t se e any .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . MR . THORNTON : Th e onl ypossibl e thin g woul db e th e employe e numbers , bu t othe r tha n- - JUDG E GOODWIN : An dmy understandin g wit hemploye e number s i s tha t doesn' t ge t m e anything .

MR . THORNTON : No .

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 39 9
MR . MORRIS : No . JUDG E GOODWIN : Withou t th e database , I've go t nothing .

MR . THORNTON : Unles s you'r e i n th e Grea t Lake s Aviatio ndatabas e - -

JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . MR . THORNTON : i t doesn' t mea n anythin g JUDG E GOODWIN : Right .

MR . MORRIS : Well , and , i nfact , I di dno t redac t th e employe e numbe r i ntha t
case , becaus e i t doe s relat e t o - -

JUDG E GOODWIN : Othe r exhibits . MR . MORRIS : - - logboo k signoffs . JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . MR . MORRIS : Th e othe r thing . You r Honor , is , I mean , absen t objectio no r supplementatio no f th e trainin g records , I woul dreoffe r C-2 0 fo r identificatio na s C-20 . W e ha dhel dof f o nth e admissibilit yo f tha t pendin g Mr . Thornton' s goin g - - givin g Grea t Lake s th e opportunit yt o g o bac k an dchec k

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 thei r trainin g records . MR . THORNTON : N o objection . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Le t m e ge t that " open . Now , th e on e I' mconcerne dabou t redaction s o ni s th e Court' s copy , becaus e that' s th e on e tha t wil l ultimatel yg o dow nt o docketing . I' mprobabl ygoin g t o kee p thi s cop ytoo . That' s no t goin g t o g o anyfarthe r tha nmyoffice , s o i f the ybrea k int o my offic e andstea l that , tha t wil l th e leas t o f

myproblems .

And , Mr . Morris , I tol dMr . Thornto nth e two switche s ar e u p her e o nth e sid e o f th e bench .

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Sir , I remin dyo u tha t you'r e stil l unde r oath , andbecaus e we'r e i na ne wday , woul dyo u jus t repea t you r nam e fo r th e record , please .

TH E WITNESS : Mynam e i s Michae l Hulett , M-I-C-H-A-E- L H-U-L-E-T-T .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . THORNTON : Ma yI - - JUDG E GOODWIN : Sure . That' s th e copy . I don' t kno wwhic hon e yo u need .

MR . THORNTON : Whic hon e d o yo u want ? JUDG E GOODWIN : Doesn' t mak e any differenc e t o me .

MR . THORNTON : Al l right . Whereupon , MICHAE L HULET T havin g bee npreviousl ydul ysworn , wa s recalle da s a witnes s herei nan dwa s examine d
an dtestifie dfurthe r a s follows :

CROSS-EXAMINATIO N(Resumed ) B YMR . THORNTON : Q Goo dmorning , Mr . Hulett . Ho war e you ? AFine . Ho war e you ? Q Good . I jus t wante dt o g o ove r a coupl e o f thing s tha t w e talke dabou t yesterda yjus t t o mak e sur e it' s clear . W e wer e talkin g abou t R-6 , th e pigtai l squa t

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 switch ,

A Ye s Q I nver yroug hdrawin g ove r her e o n th e board , thi s bein g R- 6 - - thi s i s th e squa t switch ; up her e i s th e canno nplu g - - wha t th e mechani c wil l d o i s cu t th e wire s an dthe n attac hth e wires , matchin g th e number s o nth e new-par t side , bu t wit hth e number s o f th e wire s tha t ar e alreadyattache dt o th e canno n plug . AOkay . Q I s tha t ho wth e proces s - - yo u understan dth e proces s works ? A Ye s Q Now , yo u testifie dtha t th e onl y canno nplug s tha t - - o r onl ysqua t switche s you'v e eve r replace dwer e mor e i nth e forma t
o f Respondent' s 7 . I s tha t correct ? A Q 

### That' s correc t D o yo ukno w wher eRespondent' s 7 i s made ? A

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q Whic hmanufacture r supplie s thes e

i nthi s form ? ATh e airlin e manufacturers , typically . Q Right . S o Grea t Lake s doe s thi s itsel f i nit s shop . ACurrentl ythe yare . Yes . Q Okay . S o wher e di dyo u eve r ge t
on e lik e thi s i f thi s i s mad e specificall yi n Grea t Lakes' s shop ? AI'v e no t performe dmaintenanc e o n Grea t Lake s aircraft . Q No . Bu t whe nyo u did , yo u weren' t workin g fo r Grea t Lakes . Wher e di dyo u ge t a squa t switc hlik e this , a s oppose dt o th e on e th e manufacture r sell s lik e this ? A Th e assembl yo f tha t i s no t proprietar yt o Grea t Lakes , t o my understanding . Q Well , wher e wa s th e on e yo u use d assembled ? A

(202 ) 234-443 3 B yContinenta l Express .
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q Yo u sur e abou t that ?

A(N

o response. ) Q Ar e yo u sur e abou t that , sir ? AIt' s bee na long time , bu t I' m sayin g tha t the ywoul dhav e don e that . Q It' s bee na lon g tim e sinc e you'v e ha danyexperienc e wit hsqua t switches . Isn' t tha t correct , sir ? A That' s tru e Q An djus t t o g o ove r th e diagra mI di dyesterday , th e very , ver yroug hcircuit , thi s downher e a t th e botto mbein g th e squa t switc h- - JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Now , yo u jus t - - t o mak e th e recor dclear , you'v e go t -

- dow na t th e botto mo f th e diagram , you'v e go t a nSS . I woul dals o mak e a comment , gentlemen . I've go t a digita l camera . I f necessary , I ca ntak e a pictur e o f that , e-mai l i t t o you , andthe nw e ca nmak e tha t a par t o f th e record .

MR . MORRIS : That' s fine , sir .

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . THORNTON : Jus t wan t t o mak e

sur e tha t - -

JUDG E GOODWIN : W e coul dals o ge t Mr . Thornto ni nth e picture , i f w e wanted .

MR . MORRIS : One' s mor e tha n enough , sir .

JUDG E GOODWIN ; Okay . Well , yo u wan t equa l time ?

MR . MORRIS : No , sir . (Laughing. ) B YMR . THORNTON : Q S o I've go t a ver yroug hdrawin g her e o nth e board , which , fo r th e record , tha t I' mlookin g at . Right , Mr . Hulett ? AYes . That' s a roug hdiagram . Q An ddownher e I got , S S Tha t woul db e th e safet yswitc ho r th e squa t switch ? JUDG E GOODWIN : I wan t t o mak e sur e bot ho f yo u gentleme nunderstand , bu t i f yo u sayanythin g you'v e go t t o g o t o th e mike .

MR . THORNTON : Okay . B YMR
. THORNTON :

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q Al l right . An dthi s i s th e wir e

numbe r 7 . I t goe s up t o th e printe dcircui t board ? A Ca nI refe r t o a nactua l aircraf t drawin g schematic ? Q Sure . JUDG E GOODWIN : Whe nyo u loo k a t a page , woul dyo u just , fo r th e record , stat e wha t exhibi t andwha t pag e you'r e lookin g at , s o tha t - -

wil l TH E WITNESS : Yes , You r Honor , I

JUDG E GOODWIN : Mr . Morris , whil e he' s doin g that , refres hm yrecollection . I t
wa s Exhibi t 2 0 tha t yo u jus t moved ?

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : An d- - MR . THORNTON : N o objection . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . (The documen t referre dto , havin g bee npreviousl ymarke dfo r identificatio na s Complainant' s

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Exhibi t 20 , wa s receive dint o evidence. ) TH E WITNESS : I' mtryin g t o find th e drawin g tha t show s bot hth e squa t switc h
andth e solenoi dassembly . (Perusin g documents. ) Okay . I follo wyou .

MR . THORNTON : Al l right . TH E WITNESS : I' mon , o h— JUDG E GOODWIN : Tha t ta bshoul d giv e yo u th e - -

TH E WITNESS : I amo nth e tent h pag e o f Exhibi t C-10 , You r Honor .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Jus t s o we'r e - - a t th e top o f th e pag e i t says , "Governo r an d groun didl e stop-propeller, " a t th e top ?

TH E WITNESS : That' s correct . You r Honor , JUDG E GOODWIN : An da t th e botto m ther e i s handwritte nwords , says , "Powe r throug hR/ H squa t switch" ?

TH E WITNESS : That' s correct . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . It' s

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1 paginate d1 0 o f 53 , gentlemen . 2 B YMR . THORNTON : 3 Q An djus t s o w e hav e a rea l basi c - 4 1"

- andI understan dthi s isn' t clos e t o 5 accurate , bu t a basi c understandin g o f th e 6 circuit , th e switc htrigger s a curren t tha t 7 goe s up t o th e printe dcircui t boar dtha t goe s 8 t o th e solenoi dandactivate s th e solenoid , 9 th e low-pitc hsolenoid . An dth e printe d 1 0 circui t boar deithe r connect s wit hswitche s t o 1 1 9 , whic hi s th e groun dmod e tha t complete s th e 1 2 circuit , complete s th e continuity , o r goe s t o 1 3 8 , whic hdoesn' t complet e th e continuity . An d 1 4 that' s th e ai r mode , andth e solenoi d i s of f 1 5 whe nth e circui t isn' t complete . I s tha t 1 6 correct , sir ? 1 7 AThat' s correct . 1 8 Q An dit' s you r belie f tha t there' s 1 9 a two-secon ddela ysom e plac e betwee nth e 2 0 printe dcircui t boar dandth e solenoi dswitc h 2 1 fo r th e completio no f thi s circui t andth e 2 2 activatio no f th e solenoi dswitch , th e low

-

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 pitc hsolenoid . I s tha t right ?

AThat' s correct . I believ e I've rea dtha t somewher e too . Q S o thi s i s wher e yo u believ e th e tw o second s is . Right ? AI' dprefe r t o correc t th e drawin g somewha t t o sho wactua l - - jus t wher e th e powe r sourc e begin s an dwher e th e groun d terminates . Q Whydon' t yo u d o that . MR . THORNTON : I s tha t al l right . You r Honor ? JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes , please . D o
w e onl yhav e th e gree nan dth e whit e markers ?

MR . THORNTON : W e hav e blue , w e hav e black , andw e hav e red .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . MR . MORRIS : Non e ar e permanent . Right ? MR . THORNTON : Non e ar e permanent .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , I tol dyo u I di dtha t teachin g a clas s on e day . Too k m e a n

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 hou r t o ge t th e permanen t marke r of f th e

board . MR . THORNTON : Brovine' s caree r depende do nhi m

findin g m e thi s one . JUDG E GOODWIN : No wI' mgoin g t o as k you , i f yo u us e th e re d- - no . Rathe r tha nerase , i f you'l l jus t us e th e re d- -

TH E WITNESS : I jus t wan t t o sho w thi s i s - - here' s ou r powe r sourc e begin s here . B YMR . THORNTON : Q Okay . AS o pe r th e theor yo f electricity , we'l l star t a powe r circui t - -

TH E REPORTER : Excus e me . We'r e no t gettin g this .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . Woul dyo u gra bth e mik e an dtak e i t over ?

MR . THORNTON : Here . I'l l hol di t fo r him . JUDG E GOODWIN : Yo u wan t t o us e you r mike ?

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . THORNTON : G o ahead , TH E WITNESS : Okay . I' mjus t tryin g t o assis t mysel f an deveryon e her e fo r th e sak e o f powe r searchin g fo r a groun d throug hth e system . I t help s m e clarif yi t i n
mymin da s muc ha s anything . S o tha t woul d b e powe r i nthroug hwir e 7 a t th e squa t switch . An dthat' s wha t make s contact s 9 o r 8 . An d the nwe'r e searchin g fo r a groun dafte r th e electricit yflow s throug hth e - - that' s kin d
o f a typica l groun dsymbol .

MR . THORNTON : Right . TH E WITNESS : S o we'r e o nth e sam e page ,

spea k up . MR . MORRIS : Mike , yo u hav e t o

TH E WITNESS : We'r e o nth e sam e pag e the nfo r th e purpose s o f that .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . S o jus t fo r th e record , w e hav e a - - th e witnes s has , i n th e uppe r left-han dcorne r o f th e diagram , drawna re dlin e wit ha circl e wit ha plu s i n

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 it , whic hyou'r e indicatin g i s tha t woul db e

th e powe r source . I s tha t correct ?

TH E WITNESS : Correct . JUDG E GOODWIN : An dthe nt o th e righ t a t approximatel yth e sam e place , you'v e go t - - i s tha t G- 0 o r G- D o r i s tha t circl e wit ha - - TH E WITNESS : Jus t a groundin g symbol . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Bu t it' s a circl e wit ha minu s i nit , whic hyo u mea ntha t woul db e a groun dswitch . Groun dunderline d
a s w e define dyesterday , electrica l ground .

TH E WITNESS : Yes , You r Honor . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . B YMR . THORNTON : Q An dwhe nth e circui t i s complete d
o nwir e numbe r 9 , it' s i nth e groun d i nquote s mode . An dwhe nth e circui t i s open , it' s connecte dt o wir e numbe r 8 i nth e ai r mode . Right ? Correc t

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q An di f th e syste mi s no t working .

i t fail s t o 8 , o r i nthi s case , accordin g t o you , 6 . Right ? AA s i t wa s mis-wire dt o numbe r 6 , ye s . Q Right . I neithe r case , i f th e connectio ni s t o 8 o r 6 , th e circui t i s no t complet e andth e solenoid , low-pitc hsolenoid , doe s no t activate . A That' s correc t Q An dbase dupo nyou r experienc e wit hth e activatio no f th e low-pitc hfunctio n o f th e aircraft , there' s n o wa ya nexperience d pilo t woul dno t realize , eithe r bytestin g o r bylandin g o r bytaxiing , tha t h e wa s no t i n ground-idl e mode . A That' s correct . Th e pilo t woul d kno wi f i t wa s i nground . Q Now , tak e a loo k a t C-4 , sir . AOkay . Q O npag e -341 . AOkay .

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:•• # 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q That' s wher e th e writeu p o f th e

landin g gea r hor ntoo k plac e an dth e firs t repai r wa s don e o nth e 28th . I s tha t correct ? AThat' s correct . Q An dthere' s a nindicatio ntha t th e repai r wa s don e b ySprague , andth e require d inspectio nitemwa s don e b ySmith . AThat' s correct . Q And . the nlo g pag e -34 2 show s th e fligh t operation s th e nex t day ? A That' s correc t Q -34 3 i s th e fligh t operation s th e da yafte r that , o nth e 1s t o f March ? AThat' s correct . Q W e hav e leap yea r apparently . An d the no nth e -34 4 i s th e fligh t operation s o n th e 2nd ? A That' s correc t Q An do n-34 5 ar e th e fligh t operation s o nth e 3rd . AThat' s correct . Q An dcomin g int o Denver , on e o f th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 pilot s wrot e up th e stuck-in-low-pitc h

situatio n A That' s correc t

" QAn db

ylookin g a t th e line s from th e da ybefore , i t look s lik e tha t sam e pilo t too k tha t fligh t ou t tha t nigh t fro mDenve r t o Pierr e an dfro mPierr e t o Huron . I s tha t correct ? A Q That' s correct . An dthe nh e - - th e nex t mornin g h e
wen t from

Huro nbac k t o Pierre . I' mo nth e 3r dnow , o n-3 4 5 A Q A That' s correc t An dthe nPierr e t o Denve r That' s correc t Q S o thi s pilo t operate dthi s aircraf t thre e leg s befor e h e encountere dth e problem . I t wa s o nth e fourt hle g o f hi s tri p tha t h e encountere dtha t problem .

MR . MORRIS : Well , objection , You r Honor . There' s a differenc e betwee n encounterin g a proble man drecordin g a

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 problem . MR . THORNTON : Al l right . I'l l

rephras e th e question .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q Tha t h e recorde dth e problem . AThat' s correct . Q Al l right . Now , ca n yo u explai n t o m e whya pilo t woul dignor e a discrepanc y o nthre e leg s o f a fligh t an d the nfinall y recor di t o n th e fourt hleg ? APossibl yth e capabilitie s t o repai r th e aircraf t mor e efficientl yi n Denver ? Well , h e starte dou t i n Denver . AMayb e h e didn' t recogniz e th e proble mi n Denver , o r th e redundanc yo f th e syste mallowe dhi mt o continu e t o operat e th e airplane . Q Ho wman ytime s di d thi s airplane , o nth e 2 7 flight s tha t i t wa s engage din , com e bac k throug hDenver ? A 

### Ihaven' t

tallie dthos eu p righ t

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# r ^ 1 here .

2 Q Ho wman yoperation s doe s Grea t 3 Lake s conduc t ever yday ? 4 AI believ e the yhav e ove r 20 0 5 flight s i nandou t Denve r ever yday . 6 Q An dth e vas t majorit yo f thos e 7
_flight s originat e o r terminat e where ? 8 ATypicall ythe yterminat e a t th e 9 out-stations , spen dth e overnight , an darriv e 1 0 i nDenve r earl yth e nex t day . 1 1 Q S o wel l ove r hal f o f th e flight s 1 2 tha t Grea t Lake s conduct s originat e o r 1 3 terminat e i nDenver . Isn' t tha t correct , sir ? 1 4 ATha t coul db e correct . 1 5 Q Al l right . An di f you'r e lookin g 1 6 a t statistics , wher e woul dyo u expec t th e 1 7 greates t numbe r o f writeup s t o be ? 1 8 AI nDenver . 1 9 Q Al l right . That' s becaus e that' s 2 0 wher e th e airplane s ar e mos t o f th e time . 2 1 Isn' t tha t correct ? 2 2 A That' s true .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q An dfrequentl ydiscrepancie s ge t

writte nu p outsid e o f Denver . Isn' t tha t right , sir ? AThat' s true . Q Now , i f w e g o t o th e nex t day , th e 3r d- - excus e me , it' s a continuation , -346 , no wthere' s a lo t goin g o nhere . Isn' t tha t correct ? A That' s correc t Q Mr . Smit hi s tryin g t o figur e ou t th e problem , andhe' s baffle db yit , isn' t he ? AI hav e n o evidenc e t o kno wwh o actuall ydocumente dth e discrepancies . I jus t kno wtha t i t wa s a maintenanc e individual . Q Amaintenanc e individua l documented , becaus e the yonl ysig nof f whe n the yfi xit . Right ? AThat' s correct . Q 

### But

yo usa t

i no nMr
. Smith' s deposition , didn' t

you ? AIdid
. QAn dyo ukno w tha t h ewa s th eon e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wh o di dal l thes e thing s

A An dI believ e h e di ddocumen t these . Ye s Q Yes . An dyo u sai dtha t ther e wa s
n o indicatio ntha t anywire s wer e cut . Wha t doe s ite m7 an dite m9 relat e to , sir ? AIte m

numbe r 7 , the " discrepanc y states , "On e envir o splic e protectiv e coverin g approximatel yon e foo t fromrigh t squa t switc h
canno nplu g no t shrun k ove r splice. " 0 An dwha t doe s numbe r 9 relat e to ? A Numbe r 9 inform s m e that , "Envir o splic e unde r righ t turtl e shel l o f wir e K11A2 2 protectiv e coverin g no t shrun k ove r splice. " Q An dwhydi dthos e environmenta l splice s - - whywer e the ymade , an dwhywa s th e shrink-ove r no t pu t bac k on ? AI don' t kno wwhe nth e envir o splice s wer e made . I jus t kno wtha t th e coverin g wasn' t shrun k ove r them . Q deposition . 

### Yo

uwer ea t

Mr , Smith' s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 A Ye s MR . THORNTON : Ma yI approach . You r Honor ? JUDG E GOODWIN : Ye s

BYMR . THORNTON : Q Respondent' s Exhibi t 1 i s a turnove r shee t an dth e sam e maintenanc e page s we'v e bee ntalkin g abou t fo r th e las t da yo r
so . Correct ? A turnove r sheet s Correct . I recogniz e th e

an d- - Q Al l right . An dthe nwe'v e go t
som e redundancie s i nth e recor dhere , bu t wha t I reall ywan t t o focu s o ni s th e turnove r sheet . AOkay . Q Yo u recal l tha t a t th e informa l hearing , Mr . Smit htalke dabou t th e turnove r sheet , didn' t he ? AYes , h e did . 

### QAn

dMr
. Morri s aske du s t o produc e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 it . D o yo u recal l that ?

AI do . Q An dw e sen t i t in , didn' t we ? AYo u did . Q Now , Mr . Smit hstate s tha t th e firs t thin g tha t h e di di s h e fixe dth e wirin g a t th e printe dcircui t board . Right ? AThat' s correct . Q Tha t wirin g a t th e printe dcircui t boar dcoul dhav e bee nth e caus e o f th e squa t switch' s failur e t o activat e th e low-pitc h solenoid , couldn' t i t hav e been ? AHa di t no t bee nmakin g contact . Wha t wa s recorde dwa s tha t th e wire s wer e to o taut , s o I reall ydon' t kno wth e natur e o f any failur e there . Q Wha t I aske dyou , sir , is , Coul d th e wir e tha t h e fixe dther e hav e bee nwha t
cause dth e problem , th e discrepanc ytha t wa s writte nu

p o nth e 3rd ? AI don' t kno wth e natur e o f hi s repai r either .

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# r ^ 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q I didn' t as k yo u that . Coul di t

hav e - - coul da repai r a t th e printe dcircui t boar dcontribute dt o th e discrepanc ytha t wa s writte nup o n"th

e 3rd ? AThi s wa s afte r th e discrepanc y tha t wa s writte nup o nth e 3rd , i s i t not ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yo u can' t as k a questio n
jus t TH E WITNESS : Al l righ t I' m

JUDG E GOODWIN : Answe r th e questio ni f yo u can .

TH E WITNESS : I don' t thin k s o

Q B YMR . THORNTON : Yo u don' t thin k so . Now , h e als o say s tha t th e wire s a t th e printe dcircui t boar dnee dt o b e extende ds o they'r e no t s o tight . I f wire s ar e to o tight , ca ntha t brea k th e continuit ya t th e printe dcircui t board ? AConceivabl yi t could . Q Al l right . An dthe nh e goe s o nt o say , a fewline s down , "Th e squa t switc h

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 canno nplu g t o squa t switc hwir e numbe r 7 no t

makin g contact . Splice dwire s o nbot hside s andjumpe dth e canno nplug . Work s fine . Covering s o nbot hsplice s ar e no t shrunk. " Tha t relate s t o th e entrie s w e jus t talke d about , doesn' t it ? AYes . I t appear s to . Q Al l right . S o h e cu t wires , didn' t he ? A Th e onl ythin g I se e - - I can' t
as k a question . I understan dthat . Q Jus t - - it' s a simpl e question . Yo u wer e a t th e informal . Yo u listene dt o Mr . Smith . Yo u wer e a t hi s deposition . Yo u eve n aske dhi mquestions . Thi s documen t wa s explained . Yo u can' t jum p aroun dth e canno n plu g withou t cuttin g wires , ca nyou , sir ? AI woul dsaytha t yo u ca nb y differen t methods , bu t h e likel ydi dcu t a 

### wir e Q 

### S o the nwhydi dyo utestif y yesterda ytha t

n o wire s wer ecut , whe nyo u

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 kno wthe ywere ?

AAn dI believ e ther e wa s testimony fro mMr . Smit htha t on e wir e wa s brok e and possibl ythe ydidn' t eve nnee dt o cu t that . Q Tr ymyquestion , sir . Wh ydi dyo u testif yyesterda ytha t n o wire s wer e cut , whe n yo u kne wther e wer e wire s cut ? A I' mreferrin g t o th e officia l lo g maintenanc e recor dentrie s Q Yo u kne wa s a fac t tha t wire s wer e cut , didn' t you , sir ?

wha t Q I' dlik e t o stat e tha t i f tha t i s

Pleas e answe r th e question , sir . Yo u kne wa s a fac t tha t wire s wer e cu t

(N o response. ) MR . THORNTON : I' das k th e Cour t t o direc t th e witnes s t o answe r th e question .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , yo u - - TH E WITNESS : Yes . The na wir e
wa s cut . I thin k I recal l tha t fro mMike' s deposition .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 B YMR . THORNTON :

Q Al l right . Why , then , di dyo u testif yunde r oat hyesterda ytha t n o wire s wer e cut ? AI f that' s true , that' s myerror . Q D o yo u understan dyou'r e unde r oath , unde r pai no f perjury ? AYes , sir , I do . Q S o yo u perjure dyourself . I s tha t correct , sir ?

Hono r MR . MORRI S

JUDG E GOODWIN : Objection , , You r

It' s sustained . Th e Cour t wil l mak e tha t determination .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q Now , goin g on . Mr . Smit hsays , whe nh e jump s aroun dth e canno nplug , th e squa t switc hwork s fine , doesn' t he , i nth e turnove r sheet , R-1 ? "Jumpe dcanno nplug , work s fine. " AThat' s correct . Q Okay . Now , i f he' s jumpin g aroun d

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e canno nplu g an djus t goin g aroun dth e

canno nplu g and6 an d7 ar e mis-wired , that' s no t goin g t o fi xth e problem , i s it , sir ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : didn' t hea r that . I' msorry .

MR . THORNTON : I f h e jus t jump s aroun dth e canno nplu g - - ma yI approach . You r Honor ? JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . I jus t ha d troubl e hearin g you . That' s all .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q Thi s i s th e canno nplug . It' s goin g u p o nth e wing . Right ? A Correct . Q An di f h e jus t jump s aroun dfrom underneat hth e turtl e shel l t o dow nher e som e plac e t o a nexpose dwire , an dit' s mis-wire d downhere , that' s no t goin g t o fi xth e problem , i s it , sir ? AI' mno t sur e I understan dth e natur e o f ho wh e jumpe dthi s thing . I' m- - Q Tak e a loo k a t - -

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 staple dthe mtogethe r an dmarke dthem . TH E WITNESS : Than k you . B YMR . THORNTON : Q Firs t pag e o f R-3 . I f yo u imagin e wher e tha t whit e wir e is , that' s wher e th e splic e occurred . That' s wher e th e jum p began . A " Okay . S o tha t woul db e ou r powe r wir e a t th e canno nplug . Q Abov e th e wing . We'r e underneat h th e turtl e shel l here . Se e that ?

A Q A 

### Correc t Okay ? Okay
. Q The nyo u ca nse e i t a littl e mor e clearl yo nth e secon dpag e o f R-3 . It' s goin g ove r th e leadin g edg e o f th e wing . AOkay . Q An do nth e thir dpag e yo u ca nse e i t eve nmor e clearly . It' s goin g ove r th e leadin g edg e o f th e wing . ACorrect . Q Fift hpag e i s mor e o f th e same .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Th e sixt hpage , se e it' s comin g down

underneath , goin g up int o th e whee l well . AOkay . Q An dthe no n"tih e sevent hpage , yo u ca nse e wher e he' s indicatin g tha t h e re splice di t t o complet e th e jump . Now , my question , sir , is , i f that' s wher e th e jum p occurred , i f 6 and7 wer e mis-wired , th e solenoi dwouldn' t hav e worked , woul di t have ? A I thin k i t coul dwork , becaus e he' s takin g th e powe r wir e an dhe' s bypassin g th e squa t switch , makin g th e correc t connection , Q He' s bypassin g th e squa t switch ? How' s h e bypassin g th e squa t switch ? Yo u ca n se e wher e it' s up i nth e whee l well , wel l 

### m abov e th e squa t switch . Squa t switc hi s down here , isn' t it ? A connected ? Yes . Where' s thi s wir e bein g

Q Wher e it' s indicated , abov e th e Ade l clip , Ade l clamp .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AI s i t abov e wher e i t wa s

previousl yspliced ? Q Well , yo u kno wtha t h e indicate d that . ~ ' He' s - - yo u wer e a t hi s deposition , wher e h e circle dexactl ywher e h e di dit . ABecaus e I though t i ntha t depositio nh e tol dm e h e wen t fro mth e canno n plu g back , clea r bac k up t o th e canno nplug . Q Well , i f - - I'l l as k yo u t o assum e tha t that' s wher e th e splic e occurred , a s indicate do nth e las t page , u p i nth e whee l well . Now , i f that' s wha t h e di dt o jum p aroun dth e canno nplug , an d6 an d7 wer e mis

wired , th e solenoi dwoul dno t hav e worked , woul di t have ? AI thin k i t woul dwork . Q Y u thin k i t would . Whyi s that , sir ? Wh

yd o think i t woul dwork ? ABecaus e I thin k it' s totall y bypasse dth e squa t switch . Q It' s bypasse dth e squa t switch . An dho wi s tha t accomplishe db ytha t jump ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AA s yo u jus t depicte dt o m e here .

Q Well , you'v e go t a wir e underneat h th e canno nplug , a wir e abov e th e canno nplug . An dhe' s gon e andbypasse dth e canno nplug . An dwher e th e splice s ar e an dwher e th e jum p occurre di s wel l abov e th e squa t switch . S o ho wha s h e bypasse dth e squa t switch ? AI thin k he' s provide da continuou s sourc e byusin g tha t jum p wir e t o tak e th e squa t switc hou t o f th e system . Q That' s you r understanding . AYes . I f tha t - - Q That' s you r understandin g o f electrica l circui t A That' s correc t Q Tha t by- - I' mgoin g t o th e boar d
no w- - tha t b ydoin g a - - imagin e th e win g i s her e - - bydoin g a jum p lik e this , a s indicate dbyth e red , tha t someho wth e squa t switc hwa s take nou t o f th e circuit ? A Yes . I' dlik e t o refe r t o Mik e Smith' s testimonyt o se e abou t it .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q No . M yquestio ni s rea l simple ,

sir . I f yo u jus t jum p fromher e t o her e o n wir e numbe r 7 , it' s you r testimony , a s th e perso ntha t th e travelin g publi c look s t o fo r aviatio nsafet ywhe ni t come s t o electricity , tha t a jum

p lik e thi s i s goin g t o tak e thi s ou t o f th e circuit ? A Q A No . Tha t woul dno t a s Tha t woul dno t

• - draw nther e Q Than k you . Again , I'l l as k yo u t o assume , a s you'v e bee nqualifie da s a nexpert , fo r th e purpose s o f thi s nex t question , tha t tha t wa s th e jum

p tha t wa s done . I f tha t wa s th e jum

p tha t wa s don e andth e solenoi d starte dt o wor k fine , the ni t couldn' t hav e bee nmis-wired . 6 and7 coul dno t hav e bee n mis-wired . I s tha t correct , sir ? ATha t woul db e true . Q Now , a numbe r o f mechanic s worked '
o nthi s afte r Mr . Smit hgav e th e turnover . I s tha t correct ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AThat' s correct .

Q An dthe ywer e doin g variou s things , a s indicate dbylo g pag e -346 , Exhibi t C-3 . O r i s i t C-5 ? C-4 . AC-4 ? Than k you . Q Lo g pag e - 3 46 . Okay . I' mo ntha t page . AAl l right . Mr . Smit hdi da numbe r o f thing s an dth e mechanic s wer e doin g a numbe r o f thing s t o butto ni t up . Right ? ACorrect . Q An dw e als o kno wfro mR-1 , th e turnove r sheet , tha t the wirin g harnes s wa s lef t unsecured . A Ye s Q An ds o w e go t mechanic s crawlin g aroun di nther e doin g variou s things , wit ha n unsecure dwirin g harness . ACorrect . 

### QAl lright
. Now , loo k a t th elas t entr yo nth ecorrectiv eactio nside
. Now ,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 firs t o f all , yo u testifie dyesterda ytha t

thi s cas e i s no t abou t fault ymaintenanc e documentation . Right ? There' s n o charge s i n th e complain t abou t fault ymaintenanc e documentation . Isn' t tha t correct ? A Q That' s correct . Al l righ t MR . MORRIS : Wha t exhibi t wer e yo u referrin g t o again ?

MR . THORNTON : C-4 , lo g pag e -346 . JUDG E GOODWIN : 2 06346 . Jus t fo r th e record , whe nth e Counsel' s referrin g t o - 346 , he' s droppe dth e firs t thre e digits, becaus e 206

- i s th e consisten t numbe r o f al l th e lo g pages .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q Now , d o yo u se e unde r ite mnumbe r 7 tha t somebodysigne doff ? There' s a correctiv e actio nof . Repaire dwire . A Correct , I se e tha t Q An dever yon eo f th e one s abov e them , whe nth e tas k i s completed , the ydra wa

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 lin e al l th e wa yove r t o sho wtha t that' s

done . There' s n o - - yo u can' t writ e anythin g mor e i nthere . They'v e signe di t off . Right ? AI agree . Q S o fo r ite m5 , 9 , 8 , an d6 , thos e wer e completed , a s wa s 7 . AI agree . Q Bu t somebodyrepaire da wire , didn' t they ? A Ye s Q And , now , the ydidn' t documen t i t properly , bu t the yrepaire da wire . AI thin k possibl yth e perso n starte dt o writ e tha t an dthe nwen t t o th e nex t lo g pag e andcomplete dthei r correctiv e action . Q Bu t there' s a nindicatio ntha t somebodyrepaire da wire . Isn' t tha t correct ? A That' s true , Q Now , di dyo u g o t o th e mechanic s andsay . I s thi s wha t possibl yhappened ? I s thi s wha t di dhappen ? Di dyo u jus t repai r a

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 wir e an dno t d o a prope r correctiv e actio n

notation ? ANo , I di dnot . Q Bu t it' s jus t a s "likel ytha t someho wo r another , wire s wer e broke no r damage di nsom e way , an dsomebodyrepaire di t
•an ddidn' t properl ydocumen t it . That' s jus t
a s likely , isn' t it , sir ? ATha t coul db e true . Q An dyo u hav e n o way , yo u hav e n o wa yo f rulin g ou t tha t possibility , d o you ?

Q I d o no t Becaus e yo u faile dt o conduc t a prope r investigatio nandtal k t o th e mechanics . Isn' t tha t correct , sir ? A I relie dupo nth e entrie s mad e o n th e aircraf t fligh t logs . Q Bu t a proper , a prope r investigation , no t a s t o ba dmaintenanc e documentation , a prope r investigatio no f whethe r thi s wir e wa s brok e befor e o r afte r Marc h3 , woul dhav e involve dtalkin g t o th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 fligh t crew s andtalkin g t o th e mechanics .

AI coul dhav e don e bette r i ntha t regard . Yes , sir . Q An dyo u purposel ychos e no t t o d o that . AOkay . I'l l agre e t o that . Q Now , o nlo g pag e 20634 7 i nC-3 , ite mnumbe r 10 , ther e wa s a wir e broke ni nth e J10 7 unde r th e turtl e shell . An dit' s - - there' s a nindicatio ntha t i t wa s repaire do n ite mnumbe r 1 0 o nth e correctiv e actio nside , a t J107 , referenc e Genera l Maintenanc e Manua l 9.2.0 . Right ? AThat' s true . Q I f tha t wir e wa s broke ni nth e canno nplug , the ntha t woul dexplai nexactl y wha t Mr . Smit hwa s experiencing . Whe nh e jumpe daroun dth e canno nplug , i t worke dfine , becaus e ther e wa s n o continuit yi nth e canno n plug . Isn' t tha t right , sir ? ATha t woul db e correct . I thin k thi s i s th e wir e tha t Mik e brok e durin g th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 cours e o f hi s troubleshooting .

Q Well , h e foun di t broke , bu t doe s h e kno w--d o yo u kno wa s a fac t tha t h e brok e it ? ANo , I d o not . Q S o tha t woul dexplain , i f i t wa s broken , whyth e low-pitc hsolenoi ddi dno t activat e andwhy , whe nh e jumpe daroun dth e canno nplug , h e ha dcontinuity . AI t could , yes . Q An dwhy , afte r al l th e repair s wer e done , tha t th e op s checke dgood . AIt' s no t myunderstancMh g tha t tha t wa s th e case , becaus e th e aircraf t wa s the nferrie dt o Cheyenne . Q di dwor k An dwa s checke dou t ther e an di t

Afte r th e correctiv e actio nt o th e wiring . Q Al l right . An dnow , whe n mechanic s ar e troubleshooting , they'r e tryin g t o figur e ou t wha t th e proble mis . Right ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AThat' s correct .

Q An di na perfec t world , everythin g the yd o shoul db e documented , shouldn' t it ? AThat' s true . Q Bu t you'v e bee ni nth e aviatio n busines s fo r a lon g time . Sometime s mechanics , i f the ytrysomething , i t doesn' t work , andthe ypu t i t bac k together , the y don' t writ e everythin g down , d o they ? ATha t doe s happen . I agree . Q Shouldn' t happen , bu t i t does . A Yes . Q An dt o findou t whethe r anybody wa s cuttin g wire s an ddi danythin g tha t migh t hav e cause d6 an d7 t o b e mis-wired , a responsibl e inspecto r doin g a thoroug hand credibl e jo bwoul dhav e talke dt o th e mechanics , wouldn' t he ? A Ye s Q Now , w e kno wtha t ther e wa s wire s tha t wer e to o tigh t a t th e printe dcircui t board . W e kno ww e ha da broke nwir e i nth e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 canno nplug . W e kno wtha t wire s wer e

repaired , accordin g t o th e turnove r sheet . Fixe d- - wire s wer e fixe da t th e printe d circui t boar dbyMr . Smith . Al l o f thes e thing s coul dhav e contribute dt o th e discrepanc ytha t th e pilo t wrot e u p i nDenver . AI t could . Q An dhav e yo u eve r found , sir , tha t i nth e proces s o f fixin g something , th e mechanic s brok e somethin g else ? AYes . Q An dtha t coul dhav e ver ylikel y happene di nthi s case . AI t could . Q Now , a s t o C-5 , wha t rol e doe s th e manufacture r hav e i nth e maintenanc e practices , procedures , policies , andrule s o f carriers ? MR . MORRIS : Woul dyo u sa ytha t again ? I didn' t hea r that .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q Wha t rol e doe s th e manufacture r o f

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e aircraf t hav e - - MR . MORRIS : Than k you . B YMR . THORNTON : Q - - i nth e formulatio no f policies , rules , an dpractice s o f a carrie r a s i t relate s t o aircraf t maintenance ? AThe yhav e none . Q The yhav e none . D o manufacturer s provid e maintenanc e manuals ? AThe ydo . Q An dar e thos e maintenanc e manual s submitte dt o th e FAA ? A Th e airworthines s limitation s i s FA Aapproved . Q An dthi s maintenanc e provisio n relatin g t o th e squa t switc ho nth e Beec h190 0
wa s submitte dt o th e F7V AbyGrea t Lakes , wasn' t it ? A It' s adopte dbyGrea t Lake s an d accepte da s par t o f thei r program . Q Right . S o i t wa s jus t - - thi s progra mwa s specifi-rall yaccepte dbyth e FAA .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AYes , byvirtu e o f referenc e t o th e

Grea t Lake s CAMP . Q Right . An da t n o time , a t n o time , di dth e FA

Aever ytak e anyexceptio nt o thi s provisio no f th e Grea t Lake s maintenanc e progra ma s i t relate dt o squa t switc hrepair s befor e thi s incident . AT o m

yknowledge , no . Q An dther e i s nothin g i nthi s portio no f th e maintenanc e manua l tha t wasn' t complie dwith , a s fa r a s yo u know . ATh e par t tha t the ycomplie dwit h
wa s vi a th e oh

mmete r check . The ydidn' t us e th e breakou t bo xsection . Q Well , ther e wasn' t an y contraventio no f anythin g i nhere . The ycoul d hav e use deithe r th e oh mmete r o r th e tes t box . The yuse dth e oh mmeter , an dthe ydi d everythin g tha t th e oh mmete r procedur e calle d for . AThat' s correct . Q 

### Jus t

fo r th eCourt' s appreciation
.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 g o t o - - oh , I' msorry . I don' t hav e thes e

page s numbered . I nC-10 , pag e 23 .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Pag e 2 3 i nth e Court' s i s mostl ya blan k page .

MR . THORNTON : 24 . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . 2 4 i s - - I' mjust-doin g thi s fo r th e recor d- - i s fiv e representation s o f landin g gea r positio n warning-descriptio noperation . Th e middl e on e show s th e pedestal . Th e middl e diagra m show s th e pedestal . I s tha t th e pag e you'r e referrin g to ?

MR . THORNTON : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . That' s - - MR . THORNTON : Th e lowe r right

han dcorner .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . That' s 2 4
o f 43 . B YMR . THORNTON : Q Th e lowe r right-han dcorner , wher e i t say s - - show s th e landin g gea r an di t show s th e safet yswitch , that' s where , o nth e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 landin g gear , th e squa t switc hi s installed .

Isn' t tha t correct , sir ?

Q That' s correct . An di s - - th e on e t o th e lef t o f it , i s tha t lookin g up a t th e undersid e o f th e wing ? A Yes , i t i s Q An ds o that' s - - we'r e seein g wher e th e canno nplug s ar e underneat hth e wing . AYes . It' s a pictorial , t o me , o f th e lowe r portio no f th e mai nlandin g gea r dra g wings . Q An di n- - no wI' mcallin g you r attentio nt o Exhibi t C-12 . Hav e it ? A I do . Q An dnothin g i nC-1 2 mention s i n anywa yfault ymaintenanc e documentation , doe s it ? A That' s kindo f open , becaus e wit h regard s t o mywritin g o f maintenance , maintenanc e include s th e documentation .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 A I believ e I did , bu t I can' t stat e

th e actua l content s o f th e conversatio nwit h him . Q D o yo u kno wwha t investigatio nMr . Foh l did ? JUDG E GOODWIN : I didn' t hea r that . Counse l

B YMR . THORNTON : Q D o yo u kno wwha t investigatio nMr . Foh l did ? A No , I d o no t Q Now , sometime s i norde r t o establis ha constructiv e relationshi p betwee n th e carrie r an dth e agency , th e carrie r wil l jus t say , Look , w e ma yhav e mad e a mistake , w e
ma yno t hav e mad e a mistake, bu t let' s figur e ou t a wa yt o ge t thi s correcte di nth e future . A That' s tru e Q An dthe ytryt o hav e a cooperativ e workin g relationshi p wit hth e agency . Right ? AYes . Q An dthat' s exactl ywha t Mr . Foh l

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 i s doin g wit hC-13 , isn' t it ? He' s sayin g th e

carrier' s take nstep s t o fi xth e proble mint o th e future . A Yes . Afte r th e admissio nand validatio no f wha t I wa s sayin g i n mylette r o f investigation . Q Bu t yo u didn' t reall yd o a n investigation , di d you ? Well , you'v e already admitte dthat . An d yo u don' t kno wwhethe r Mr . Foh l di d a n investigatio neither . A I - - Q He' s jus t tryin g t o figur e out , Wha t ca n w e d o t o mak e sur e thi s doesn' t happe nagai nan d ge t th e agenc yof f ou r back . Isn' t tha t wha t he' s doing ? ATha t i s i n there . Yes . Q An d on e o f th e thing s MR . THORNTON : Ma yI approach . You r Honor ?

Q JUDG E GOODWIN : Sur e B YMR . THORNTON :



### - - the ydi dis , instea do f givin g

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 thei r mechanic s R-6 s an drequirin g t o mak e

sur e eac hwir e matche s eac hwire , the ystar t fabricatin g i nthei r sho p thi s device .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Watc hth e wires , Mr . Thornton .

MR . THORNTON : R- 7 JUDG E GOODWIN : Watc hth e mik e wire s MR . THORNTON : Oh , than k you . Yo u almos t ha dm e there , mike .

B YMR . THORNTON : Q R-7 , an dthat' s goin g t o eliminat e
a lo t o f th e problem , isn' t it ? A I agree , i t wil l Q Al l you'v e go t t o d o i s scre wi n th e two switche s andplu g i nth e plug . APrope r riggin g an d- - yes . Q Yes . S o Grea t Lakes , yo u know , responde dpositivel yt o you r letter . AThe yhave . Q An drathe r than , yo u know , dra g i t
ou t andbea t i t out , the yjus t said . Look ,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 we'l l figur e ou t a wa yw e ca nfi xit . An d

the yfixe dit , didn' t they ? AThe yhav e mad e constructiv e corrections . Yes . Q An dyou'r e satisfie dwit hthi s fix , aren' t you ? AI haven' t totall yevaluate dthat , bu t it' s lookin g good . I'l l sa ythat . Q R- 6 -- A R- 7 i s a definit e improvemen t ove r

I t i s muc hbette r Q - - i nterm s o f eliminatin g th e prospec t o f an

ymis-wiring . AYes . Q An dth e credi t th e carrie r go t fo r tha t effor t i s yo u wan t t o hi t the mwit ha bi g fine . Right ?

MR . MORRIS : Objection , You r Honor . H e doesn' t mak e tha t determination .

MR . THORNTON : H e testifie dabou t fine s yesterday . Judge .

MR . MORRIS : No , You r Honor . H e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 didn' t testif yabou t fine s JUDG E GOODWIN : Wel l -- MR . MORRIS : H e testifie dabou t sanctio nranges .

JUDG E GOODWIN : - - whethe r o r no t there' s
any
questio n MR . THORNTON : I'l l withdra wth e

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . B YMR . THORNTON : Q What' s th e statut e o f limitation s t o brin g anyviolatio nagains t th e carrier ?

MR . MORRIS : Objection , You r Honor . That' s - - it' s goin g t o b e beyon dhi s realm . JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , i f h e knows , h e ca nanswer . I f h e doesn' t know , sayyou . don' t know .

tha t TH E WITNES S

B YMR . THORNTON : I' mno t ".sur e o f

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q

A I s i t si xmonths ? I' m no t sur e o f tha t Q D o yo u kno wtha t yo u starte dthi ; process , sen t th e - - you r letter , C-12 , jus t day s befor e th e statut e ran ?

MR . MORRIS : You r Honor , I' mgoin g t o objec t t o this , becaus e th e statut e o f limitation s i s containe di nPar t 1 3 o f th e CFR s JUDG E GOODWIN : There' s n o indicatio ntha t - - that' s mor e o f a lega l questio ntha nit' s a technica l question .

MR . THORNTON : Right . JUDG E GOODWIN : I'l l sustai nth e objection . It' s als o jurisdictional . I f h e violate dth e statut e o f limitations , it' s jurisdictiona l t o th e whol e case .

Q B YMR . THORNTON ; Yo u testifie do ndirec t tha t whe n thi s firs t cam e t o you r attention , yo u believe dther e wa s -som e safety-of-fligh t issue s

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1 AThat' s correct . • ' 2 Q Havin g conducte dth e 3 investigation , havin g participate di nth e 4 informa l conference , havin g listene di no nth e 5 deposition s o f th e Grea t Lake s mechanic s an d 6 pilots , andhavin g sa t throug ha da yan da 7 thir do f thi s hearing , coul dyo u pleas e tel l 8 th e Cour t wha t th e safety-of-fligh t issues , i n 9 fact , are ? 1 0 ATh e issue , t o me , i s tha t I fel t 1 1 tha t th e aircraf t di dno t mee t it s typ e 1 2 design , andi t wa s unsaf e du e t o th e anomalie s 1 3 associate dwit htha t mis-wirin g regardin g th e 1 4 low-pitc hsqua t solenoids . 1 5 Q Well , wha t specifically , wha t 1 6 specificall ywer e th e safety-of-fligh t risk s 1 7 pose dbythi s situation ? 1 8 AI t woul dhav e t o d o wit hcontrol

1 9 abilit yo f th e airplane . 2 0 Q No t i nth e air , becaus e w e kno wi t 2 1 fail s saf e t o th e fligh t mode . Right . 2 2 AThat' s true .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q S o it' s no t eve na nissu e whe nth e

airplane' s i nth e air . Right ? AThat' s true . Q An di f i t doesn' t function , it' s wire di nparalle l s o th e pilo t ca noverrid e th e squa t switc hbyliftin g u p th e throttl e o n th e pedestal . AThat' s correct . Q How , sir , wa s anyperso no r propert yendangered , eve ni f everythin g yo u say , withou t havin g conducte da n investigation , i s true ? ACoul dyo u rephras e tha t o r restat e that , please ? Q How , sir , a s a matte r o f fact , ca n yo u say , withou t havin g conducte da nadequat e investigation , tha t anyperso no r propert ywa s endangered , eve ni f -'everythin g yo u sa ywa s true ? AI can' t stat e specificall yho w the ywer e endangered .

MR . THORNTON : That' s al l I have .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . I assum e

we'r e goin g t o hav e redirect . Let' s us e thi s a s a nopportunit yt o tak e abou t a ten-minut e break , sinc e it' s a breakin g point . So^we'l l g o of f th e record . Com e bac k betwee nte n afte r andquarte r after . Of f th e record .

(Whereupon , a brie f reces s wa s taken. )

Morris . JUDG E GOODWIN : G o ahead , Mr .

Q REDIREC T EXAMINATIO N B YMR . MORRI S Al l right . I' mgoin g t o tak e thi s
a littl e bi t ou t o f orde r fro mho wi t wa s presente dt o you , bu t I' m- - you'l l hav e t o bea r wit hm e there , Mr . Hulett. Th e firs t thin g is , we'v e bee ntalkin g abou t R- 6 andR
7 . Okay . An di t wa s adde dtha t R- 7 wa s th e correctiv e measure s tha t wer e take na s a resul t o f thi s action . I s tha t - - on eo f th e step s tha t somebodytook . Right ?

Ye s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

- 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Mak e sur e you'r e

clos e t o th e mike , s o - -
Okay .

Q MR . MORRIS : Ca nyo u hea r me ?

B YMR . MORRIS : S o le t m e as k yo u this . Whos e certificat e i s this ? AGrea t Lake s Aviation ,

this ? A S o whos e maintenanc e progra mi s

Grea t Lake s Aviation , Q An dwhos e op s spec s ar e w e talkin g about ? AGrea t Lake s Aviation . Q S o whos e obligation , i f there' s anyambiguit yi nthei r program , i s i t t o fil l thos e gaps ? AGrea t Lake s Aviation . = - Q An yreaso nthi s couldn' t hav e bee n don e three , four , fiv e year s ago ? ANo . 

### QI f ther ewa s avoi dan dthe ywer e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 doin g repairs , isn' t i t thei r responsibilit y

a s thei r certificat e fo r themt o provid e th e informatio nt o thei r mechanics ? A Yes , i t is ^ Q Okay . Than k you . Ther e wa s som e discussio nabou t saf e flight . An dfligh t i s interprete dfromth e tim e th e gate' s pulle d
awayt o th e tim e the yarriv e a t th e nex t gate . isn' t it ? Ye s Q Th e purpos e o f th e operatio ni s t o conduc t flights . AYes . Q Tha t i s considere dth e flight . I t doesn' t hav e t o b e i nair . Fo r example , i f a mechani c i s jus t taxiing , fo r th e purpose s o f movin g i t fromon e plac e o nth e ram p t o th e hangar , fo r example , that' s no t fo r purpose s o f flight , i s it ? ANo , it' s not . Q Bu t i f th e pilo t i s taxiin g t o tak e off , tha t i s fo r purpose s o f flight .

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# I^ 1

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 A Yes , i t i s

Q An dafte r landing , taxiin g t o th e gat e woul db e fo r purpose s o f fligh t then . A Yes , Q Okay . I wan t yo u t o tur nt o C-4 . Ther e wa s som e - - i nth e exhibit s tha t wer e shownt o yo u dealin g wit hthi s entr yabou t th e wire . 30 6 - - lo g pag e 306346 , d o yo u se e that ? A206 . Q 206346 , C-4 ? AYes , I do . Q Okay . Ho wman ywire s wer e crosse d here ? Weren' t ther e wire s 6 an d7 crossed ? AYes . Q That' s two . Right ? AThat' s correct . Q Thi s lo g entr yo n20634 6 refer s t o wir e i nth e singular , doesn' t it ? AYes , i t does . Q Now , andeve ni nth e plai n language , tha t i s a wir e tha t supposedl ywa s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 t o b e someho wundocumente dbyrepaired . W e

don' t kno wwha t i t is , bu t ther e wa s a repaire dwire , i f yo u accep t a premis e tha t tha t i s a complet e lo g entry . AThat' s correct . Q Okay . Now , loo k a t 20634 7 an d 2 0 634 6 a t th e sam e time_ . Loo k a t th e handwritin g o nthat . Doe s tha t appea r t o b e th e sam e perso nmakin g tha t entry , t o you ? A

foundation . I t does .

MR . THORNTON : Objection , n o Thi s witnes s hasn' t bee n qualifie da s a handwritin g expert .

JUDG E GOODWIN : T o th e exten t tha t h e wil l testif yabou t handwriting , I' m no t goin g t o allo wit . I t jus t - -

MR . MORRIS : Okay , You r Honor . JUDG E GOODWIN : - - it' db e - - I
mean , le t m e explai nth e decision . Th e reaso n i s they'r e clearl yXeroxed . There' s n o foundation . AndI woul db e hesitan t - -

MR . MORRI S I ca ndea l - - I ca n

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 ski ntha t ca t ou t o f th e way .

Q B YMR . MORRI S I f yo u loo k a t th e firs t tw o word s
o nentry , "Repaire dwire " - - d o yo u se e tha t
o n206346 ? A I d o I s tha t th e exac t sam e firs t tw o word s o nite mnumbe r 10 ? A Q Tha t i s th e same . Okay . An dit' s referrin g to , Repaire dwir e a t J107 . J10 7 i s th e canno n plu g o ntop . Right ? ; i-' " ' '- _ AYes , i t is . Q A t th e ver ytop . S o again , thi s i s importan t t o understand , a s shownfromth e pictur e an dth e R-7 , i s w e go t splic e - - o r w e go t connection s tha t ar e occurrin g her e up i n th e plug , an dw e go t thi s al l th e wa ydow n here . Right ? A That' s correc t JUDG E GOODWIN : "This " bein g th e squa t switch .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 B YMR . MORRIS :

Q Th e squa t switc ha t th e botto mo f R-7 . Okay . S o w e ar e dealin g wit hon e wir e
up a t th e canno nplug , accordin g t o thi s lo g entry . A That' s correc t Q Now , als o loo k a t th e positio no f thes e - - o f th e repai r wir e wording . Aren' t bot h20634 6 and20634 7 literall ya t th e sam e columno nth e lo g page ? I nothe r words , there' s a blan k belo wit , an dth e on e immediatel yabov e i t i s wher e bot hstar t th e word . Repaire dwire . AThat' s correct . Q Okay . S o you r inferenc e tha t i t appeare da nerro r an djus t transpose do nth e wron g lo g sheet , sinc e thes e wer e writte nup a t th e sam e time , seem s t o b e reasonable . isn' t it ? A Ye s Q Okay . Now , ther e wer e some discussion s o r contention s abou t tha t th e FA A

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 46 1

ha dtake nn o actio nagains t th e employee s o f Grea t Lakes . D o yo u recal l tha t earlie r cross-examination ? A Yes , I do . Q A t th e en do f th e day , isn'fit , i nfact . Grea t Lake s that' s responsibl e fo r everythin g tha t it s employee s doe s o r fail s t o do ?

Q That' s correc t

An dlet' s tal k abou t i nth e cross examinatio nther e wa s a stron g inferenc e dealin g wit hyo u no t contactin g Beech . Well , i f there' s a proble mwit hGrea t Lakes' s maintenanc e andth e guidanc e tha t i t use s t o maintai nit s aircraft , wh o shoul d b e contactin g th e manufacturer , yo u o r th e FAA ? Grea t Lake s o r th e FAA ? A Grea t - - I' dcontac t Grea t Lake s Q Yes . I s ther e anywher e i nth e regulation s o r i nGrea t Lake s CAM P tha t say s tha t th e FA

Ai s th e audito r fo r Grea t Lakes ? A No , ther e i s no t

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 We rel yupo nthei r

responsibilitie s fo r thei r certificat e and thei r paperwor k tha t reflect s thei r maintenance . Right .

MR . THORNTON : Excus e me . You r Honor . Thi s i s a redirec t examinatio no f hi s ow nwitness , an dh e hasn' t aske da questio n tha t hasn' t bee nleading . I don' t wan t t o constantl yinterrupt , bu t I thin k he' s sor t o f goin g beyond . Yes . Let' s try

JUDG E GOODWIN : t o - - rephras e th e - -

B YMR . MORRIS : Q S o who' s suppose dt o b e contactin g th e manufacture r i f there' s a nambiguit y concernin g Grea t Lakes' s maintenanc e program ? AGrea t Lake s would . Q An di s tha t require da s a resul t
o f thei r CAM P program , D-72 , specifically ? ANo . Grea t Lake s ca ndevelo p thos e procedures , policies , standards .

Q 

### I nfact , i s i t accurat et o .sa y

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 tha t i f Grea t Lake s doe s no t lik e th e

procedure s i na maintenanc e manual , i t i s fre e t o chang e tha t procedure , s o lon g a s it' s acceptabl e t o th e Administrator ? ATha t i s true . Q Becaus e it' s becom e thei r program , no t th e manufacturer' s program . AThat' s correct . Q I nfact , thos e manual s ar e create d
a s par t o f a completel ydifferen t par t o f th e FAR s fo r purpose s o f th e manufacturers ' obligatio nt o creat e th e manuals . A Yes , the yare . Q Th e manufacturers ' obligatio ni s t o creat e i t fo r Par t 2 1 o r Par t 23 . Right ?

MR , THORNTON : Excus e me . Leading . question . JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . Rephras e th e

B YMR . MORRIS : Q Ar e thos e manual s designe dfo r th e manufacture r o r ar e the ydesigne dfo r - - i n

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e interest s o f th e manufacture r o r i nth e

interest s o f th e companythat' s goin g t o operat e th e aircraft ? A Th e manufacture r Q Now , ther e wa s als o a questio n abou t Mr . Smith' s deposition , abou t yo u bein g ther e an dhi msayin g tha t h e performe dal l thes e op s function s checks . D o yo u recal l tha t cross-examination ? A Yes , I d o Q I as k yo u t o tur nt o C-24 , pag e 17 , beginnin g fromline s 1 2 throug h15 .

(The documen t referre dt o wa s marke dfo r identificatio na s Complainant' s Exhibi t 24. ) JUDG E GOODWIN : No . 17 , accordin g t o th e wa yI've paginate dit . You'r e o n Exhibi t 24 ? MR . MORRIS : Yes . It' s pag e 2 4 o f th e transcrip t pag e number .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Becaus e a s I paginate di t - - oops . Wai t a minute .

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 46 5
MR . MORRI S Tha t woul db e 5 Well , actuall y5 that' s righ t nex t t o th e transcript . JUDG E GOODWIN : On e second . Pa"g e 24 , accordin g t o th e wa yth e Cour t ha s paginate d- - and , I' msorry , pag e 17 ?

- MR . MORRIS : Yes . It' s th e transcrip t pag e 17 .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . Bu t th e proble m--

exhibi t MR . THORNTON : Pag e 5 o f th e

JUDG E GOODWIN : Wha t I' mtryin g t o d o i s kee p th e recor dstraight . 1 7 o f 3 7 i s actuall yth e signatur e pag e o f Michae l Verno n a s attesting , s o - -

MR . MORRIS : Well , you'v e go t th e - - JUDG E GOODWIN : - - yo u wan t pag e -

- al l right . Pag e 1 7 i s paginate d6 o f 3 7 th e
wa yth e Court' s paginate dth e exhibit .

MR . MORRIS : You'r e lookin g a t C

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 14 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 24 , C-2 4 th e depositio no f Mr . Smith ? JUDG E GOODWIN : C-2 4 i s a 37-pag e document . Okay ? Th e Cour t paginate di t 1 throug h37 , becaus e ther e ar e thing s tha t ar e
no t sequenced . S o i f th e Cour t look s a t wha t you'v e draw nth e witness' s attentio nto , whic h i s 17 , th e firs t wor do nlin e 1 is . Look .

MR . MORRIS : Correct . JUDG E GOODWIN : Th e las t wor di n lin e 2 5 is . Function , F-U-N-C

- - -

MR . MORRIS : Yes . That' s correct . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . That' s paginate d6 o f 3 7 th e wa yth e Court' s paginate di t

MR . MORRIS : Okay . MR . THORNTON : Becaus e h e paginate s th e cove r pag e a s well .

MR . MORRIS : Okay . B YMR . MORRIS : Q Hav e yo u reviewe do npag e - - it' s th e transcrip t pag e 17 , line s 1 2 throug h15 .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yo u ma ywan t t o

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 mak e sur e tha t he' s lookin g a t exactl y- - i f

yo u wan t t o approac handjus t mak e sur e he' s o nth e righ t page .

TH E WITNESS : "" I believ e I hav e i t
correc t here .

MR . MORRIS : Yes , yo u hav e it. " B YMR . MORRIS : Q Doesn' t Mr . Smit hacknowledg e tha t h e didn' t think , h e performe dth e system s checks ? MR . THORNTON : Objection . Th e transcrip t speak s fo r itself .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , d o yo u wan t hi mt o testif ywit hth e transcrip t o r - - rephras e you r - - I think th e thin g t o d o i s rephras e you r question . Mysuggestio nis , th e firs t thing , hav e th e witnes s rea dwha t yo u hav e i nmind , andthe npos e you r question .

B YMR . MORRIS : Q Di dyo u - - hav e yo u rea dline s 1 2 throug h15 ? AYes , I hav e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q S o base do nth e hypothetica l

questio ntha t wa s pose dt o yo u b yMr . Thornton , i nfac t Mr . Smit hdi dno t believ e h e ha dperforme dal l o ith e functio ntests . AThat' s correct . Q Okay . Than k you . Now , als o i n thi s - - tur nt o C-20 . I ma yg o bac k t o th e depositio ni na littl e bit , bu t let' s tur nt o C-2 0 first , pag e 7-6 . Okay . Thi s i s i n referenc e t o Mr . Sprague . No w- - Mr . Spragu e andhi s trainin g records . Now , Mr . Sprague' s suppose dt o receiv e OJ T accordin g t o th e on the-jo btrainin g manua l o f Grea t Lakes . I t include s us e o f approve ddat a t o perfor m maintenance . Correct ? A Q Correc t Fro m th e record s tha t w e hav e i n thi s cas e an dth e maintenanc e tha t w e kno w tha t actuall yo r allegedl yoccurred , di dhe , i nfact , us e approve ddat a t o perfor mal l th e maintenanc e tha t he' s sayin g tha t h e did ? A N o

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Befor e yo u leav e

that , th e wa ythat' s - - i nth e uppe r left-han d
corner , i t start s ou t wit h7.2.3 .

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . That' s paginate d4 o f 2 1 i nth e Court' s records .

B YMR . MORRIS : Q Als o yesterday , i f I ca nfind i t her e - - d o yo u hav e R- 8 i nfron t o f you ? AI do . Q I wan t yo u t o tur nt o R- 8 fo r a minute . Tha t wa s th e documen t tha t wa s presente dt o yo u b yMr . Thornto nconcernin g th e lac k o f - - o r th e omissio no f a trainin g record . Okay ? An dR- 8 refer s t o wha t typ e o f trainin g tha t h e wa s signe dof f for ? ASafety ; GMM , o r Genera l Maintenanc e Manual ; slas hlAM , Aircraf t Inspectio nManual ; runwa yincursions , an d B190 0 familiarization . Q Okay . An dthat' s date dwhen ? A11/2/2007 .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q Okay . No wI wan t yo u t o tur ni n

C-2 0 t o pag e 7-21 .

o f 2 1 JUDG E GOODWIN : Tha t woul db e 1 3

MR , THORNTON : We'r e bac k o nC- 2 0 ? MR , MORRIS : C-20 . It' s R P 7-2 1 JUDG E GOODWIN ; You'r e talkin g abou t - -

page ' MR . MORRIS : D o yo u hav e tha t

JUDG E GOODWIN : - - th e preprinte d pag e numbe r 7-21 ?

MR . MORRIS : Yes , th e preprinte d pag e andth e botto mright-han dside .

JUDG E GOODWIN : An di t start s a t th e top , 7.8.2 , Initia l Cours e Completion ?

MR . MORRIS : Correct . JUDG E GOODWIN : That' s pag e 1 3 o f 2 1 i nth e Court' s document .

B YMR . MORRIS : Q D o yo u hav e that ? AI do .

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1 2 3

" 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 A An dar e yo u als o lookin g a t R-8 ? I am . Q Okay . Doe s thi s R- 8 reflec t th e Beec hfamiliarizatio ntha t h e receive do n Septembe r 13 , 2007 , that' s reflecte do n thi s document ? A Q "Beec hfamstandar dpractices" ? Righ t A Q A 9/13/0 7 Right
. Yes
. Okay . S o that' s reflecte di n th e documen t R-8 . Right ? A Yes , i t i s Q I s th e safet ythat' s o n R- 8 reflecte do n thi s pag e 13 , o r als o knov\ ma s pag e 7-21 ? ATh e safet yi s date d10/29/07 . Q Ho wabou t th e runwa yincursions ? ATha t i s date d10/30/07 . Q Okay . An d th e GMM/AI Mtraining ? A 10/31/07 .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q S o basicall yth e R- 8 i s nothin g

mor e tha na summar yo f some o f th e - - som e o f th e trainin g i nhi s trainin g record s that' s summarize da t 7-21 . AYes . Q Okay . An dagain , ther e i s thi s initia l training , an dther e i s recurrin g trainin g that' s se t forth . An dth e initia l trainin g her e fo r hi s electrica l wirin g diagrams , accordin g t o this , didn' t occu r unti l Septembe r 12 , 2008 . Right ? A That' s correc t Q Okay . An dth e runwa ytax i cours e didn' t occu r unti l Februar y2 , 2008 . Right ? AThat' s correct . Februar y6 , o r 2/6/08 . Q S o abou t th e continuit yo f - - s o al l th e record s yo u di dhav e ar e reflecte di n C-20 . AYes , the yare . 

### QC- 8 doe s - - i s incorporate dan d- - R- 8 i s incorporate di nC-2 0detaile d

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 descriptio no f th e trainin g records , isn' t it ?

A Yes , i t i s Q Okay . JUDG E GOODWIN : An djus t fo r th e record , I d o no t sho wtha t R- 8 wa s admitted . It' s bee nidentified .

MR . THORNTON : Offe r R-8 . MR . MORRIS : N o objection , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : R- 8 fo r identificatio ni s receive dint o evidenc e a s Respondent' s 8 .

B YMR . MORRIS : Q Now , whe nh e signe d- - h e bein g Mr . Spragu e - - signe dth e aircraf t log s tha t h e ha dperforme dthos e maintenance , th e maintenanc e manua l tas k tha t h e identifie d doe s requir e hi mt o jac k th e aircraft . AYes . Q Okay . O r someon e t o jac k th e aircraft . Bu t whe nh e sign s it , he' s sayin g tha t h e i s authorize dt o perfor mtha t jackin g function , isn' t he ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 A

question ,

Q Yes . MR . THORNTON : Objection , leading . JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . Rephras e th e

B YMR . MORRIS : Whe nh e sign s tha t lo g entry , he' s signin g of f tha t h e i s authorize dt o perfor m thos e function s t o whic hh e i s makin g tha t lo g entry . I s tha t correct ?

MR . THORNTON : Sam e objection . JUDG E GOODWIN : question , Mr . Morris .

B YMR . MORRI S It' s th e sam e

Q Okay . Whe na mechani c sign s a lo g entr yidentifyin g a maintenanc e manua l referenc e o r identifyin g a particula r task , wha t doe s tha t signatur e represent ? AThe yar e signin g fo r th e complet e scop e o f th e wor k fo r whic hthe yhav e reference dand signed . Q An d doe s i t includ e al l th e task s tha t ar e identifie di n tha t maintenanc e manua l

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 reference ?

A Q Ye s An di f th e maintenanc e manua l referenc e doe s no t encompas s al l o f th e maintenanc e tha t wa s t o b e performed , wha t i s th e mechani c t o d o i na lo g entry ? A Ther e shoul db e detaile d descriptio no f tha t wor k performed . Q S o i na shorthand , i nmaintenanc e parlanc e i s a mechani c ca nreferenc e a maintenanc e manua l t o summariz e al l th e step s tha t the ytook , an dthey'r e representin g tha t the ytoo k al l thos e steps . I s tha t correct ? AThat' s correct . Q Bu t i f the ytak e step s tha t ar e no t include di ntha t maintenanc e manual , ar e the yrequire dt o explai ni nth e log s wha t othe r step s wer e taken ? AYes , the yare . Q An di s - - th e reaso nfo r tha t is ' becaus e th e FA

Awant s t o hav e - - well , w e wan t t o hav e a scrupulou s accurac ya s t o wha t

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 actuall ywa s performe di nth e performanc e o f

maintenance . AYes . Q S o hypothetically , op s check . Op s check , i f i t i s no t define danywher e o r i s no t reference danywhere , coul db e somethin g like : Kicke da tire ; landin g gea r didn' t collapse . M yinterpretatio no f op s chec k i s that' s a n adequat e op s check , isn' t it , i f there' s n o referenc e behin dit ? I s tha t - - A Tha t coul db e tru e then . Q An dI use da nextrem e example . I' mno t sayin g tha t happene di nthi s case . Bu t withou t th e linkin g o f wha t wa s actuall y performe drelatin g t o a nop s check , ther e i s
n o wa yt o kno wwha t wa s don e a t th e tim e a contemporaneou s documentatio no f tha t - - withou t contemporaneou s documentation . I s tha t correct ? A No . There' s n o instruction s o r anyreferenc e dat a o r standar dt o whic hth e functiona l o r operationa l chec k wa s performed .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Q An di nth e ligh t o f th e

regulation s an di nthei r program , they'r e require dt o documen t tha t s o ther e i s n o questio na s t o wha t maintenanc e wa s actuall y performed , a t a late r date .

MR . THORNTON : Leading . JUDG E GOODWIN : Leading . Rephras e th e question .

MR . MORRIS : Okay . B YMR . MORRIS : Q S o what' s th e purpos e o f requirin g grea t accurac yi nth e lo g pages ? AFo r jus t that , fo r accurac yan dt o determin e exactl ywha t maintenanc e wa s performe dandho wth e aircraf t was , i nfact , returne dt o a nairworthycondition .

MR . MORRIS : I believ e that' s it . sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Anythin g els e fo r thi s witness ?

MR . THORNTON : Briefly . JUDG E GOODWIN : Jus t base do nth e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 question s tha t Mr . Morri s ha s posed . MR . THORNTON : I understand . RECROSS-EXAMINATIO N B YMR . THORNTON : Q Tak e a loo k a t Mr . Smith' s deposition , C-24 , pag e 6 o f 37 , pag e 1 7 o f th e transcript , whic hh e calle dyou r attentio nto . AOkay . Q An dth e questio ntha t Mr . Morri s had , "S o ho wca nyo u - - wer e yo u abl e t o d o a n op s chec k fo r ever ysingl e functio ntha t thi s squa t switc hperforms? " An dwha t di d h e answer ? A " I don' t thin k w e did. " Q Now , yo u se e o npag e 1 8 o f th e transcript , lin e 4 , th e questio nwas , "Okay . S o wha t I' mhearin g yo u saythe ni s tha t yo u didn' t d o a nRI I fo r everythin g tha t th e squa t switc hdoes . Yo u di da s i t relate s t o th e landin g gea r horn . Don' t le t m e pu t word s i n you r mouth . I amtryin g t o understan dwha t you'r e tellin g me. " An dwha t di dMr . Smit h

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 answer ?

AH e answered , "No . W e di di t pe r th e landin g gea r horn . W e di dcheck . W e di d
ru nth e aircraf t afterwards . W e di dchec k th e low-pitc hsto p system , whic hfunctione d a t tha t time. " Q An do npag e 1 9 o f th e transcript , lin e 20 , Mr . Morri s asked , "Okay . Wha t procedur e di dyo u us e a s fa r a s doin g th e engin e runup then? " An dwha t di dMr. . Smit h
answer ? AH e answered , "We pu t th e aircraf t bac k downo nth e groun dan dra nbot hengines . " Q An dMr . Morris , o nlin e 24 , said , "Okay. " An dthe nwha t di dMr . Smit hanswer ? A"An

dw e - - yo u know , w e performe d groun dfin e check s andlow-pitc hsto p checks. " Q So , i nfact , Mr . Smit htestifie d tha t th e low-pitc hsto p check s wer e done . A Ye s 

### QAn

di nterm s o f

interpreting , o n C- 4 - - jus t

giv em

easecon dher e- - o nlo g

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 pag e - 3 46 , an dwhe nMr . Morri s wa s askin g yo u

abou t similaritie s betwee nwha t wa s foun do n tha t las t bo xo n-34 6 unde r th e correctiv e actio nan dwha t i s writte nunde r ite m 1 0 o n th e correctio nactio no n-347 , yo u can' t d o anybette r tha nspeculat e abou t wha t tha t
means . Right ? A That' s correct . Q An dther e i s n o allegatio ni nthi s lawsuit , i nthi s enforcemen t action , atepu t fault ymaintenanc e documentation , i s there ?

MR . MORRIS : Objection , You r Honor . That' s beyon dth e scop e o f my- -

JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , i t wa s aske d
andanswered .

TH E WITNESS : No . JUDG E GOODWIN : S o that ' s okay . I'l l sustain . Th e answe r i s struck . O r sustai nth e objection . Strik e th e answer , bu t - - MR . THORNTON : Lastl y- -

JUDG E GOODWIN : - - stat e fo r th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 recor di t wa s aske dan danswere da t leas t

twic e B YMR . THORNTON : Q Lastly , i ^ yo u picke dup th e phon e an dcalle dRaytheon-Beec han dsaid , I' mMik e Hulett , I' mfromth e FA Ai nDenver , an dI' m tryin g t o understan dth e understan dth e wirin g o f you r squa t switch , they' dgiv e yo u al l th e hel p yo u aske dfor , wouldn' t they ? AI don' t thin k so . No . . Q The ywouldn't ? AI've e-maile dthe mwit hothe r issues , no t regardin g thi s particula r case , an dreceive dn o response , albei t tha t I wa s tryin g t o d o i t i nbenefi t t o Grea t Lake s Aviation . Q An dhav e yo u eve r see na logboo k pag e tha t reference s jackin g th e aircraft ? A I hav e Q Hav e yo u eve r see na Grea t Lake s logboo k pag e tha t reference s jackin g th e aircraft ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AI believe , yes , tha t I hav e - -

Q Yo u have ? A- - see nthe mreferenc e t o jackin g th e aircraft^loefore . Q You'r e ou t o ntha t ram p frequently . Right ? AI' mno t o nth e ram p i nDenve r anymore . I haven' t bee nou t ther e ver ymuc h
a t all . Q Ar e yo u awar e tha t aircraf t ar e frequentl yjacke di nconnectio nwit h maintenanc e bein g performed ? AI am . Q Right . An dhav e yo u eve r violate d Grea t Lake s fo r no t writin g up jackin g a s a par t o f thei r procedures ? ANo , I hav e not . MR . THORNTON : That' s al l I have . JUDG E GOODWIN : Don e wit hthi s witness ? MR . MORRIS : No , sir . I hav e a coupl e mor e question s base do nthat .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , the nhe' s

goin g t o ge t anothe r shot , s o - -

MR . MORRIS : Understood , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Well , again , we'r e goin g t o confin e thi s t o th e question s from Mr . Thornton .

MR . MORRIS:

_Understood , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : We'r e goin g t o continu e t o narro wth e scope .

FURTHE RREDIREC T EXAMINATIO N B YMR . MORRIS : Q Tur nt o C-5 , pag e 3 , paragrap h (a) . D o yo u se e that ' A I d o Q What' s th e ver yfirs t thin g reference dfo r Maintenanc e Manua l 3260.05 ? A "Performth e three-poin t jackin g preferre dprocedure . Procedure s reference d Chapte r 7-10-00 , al l tire s mus t b e clea r o f th e floor . Q 20634 1 Okay . The ntur nt o C-4 , lo g pag e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 AOkay .

Q Se e th e entr ywher e i t ha s MM , Maintenanc e Manual , 32-60-05 ? AYes , I do . Q Isn' t tha t referenced , i nfact , tellin g yo u tha t the yjacke dth e aircraf t t o perfor mthi s maintenance ? AThat' s correct . Q Tur nt o pag e C-2 4 - - o r Exhibi t C

24 . An dI believ e it' s pag e 6 o f you r transcript , sir . It' s actuall ypage s 1 9 and 2 0 o f th e actua l transcript .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Right . It' s paginate d6 o f 37 , bu t th e transcrip t itsel f i s a s you'v e stated .

B YMR . MORRIS : Q Focusin g o npag e 20 , you'l l se e tha t i t says , "Okay . Question : Ho wca nyo u tel l fro mthi s entr ythough? " Wha t wa s Mr . Smith' s response ? A"Yo u can't . Basically , th e onl y wa ytha t yo u coul dtel l tha t fromth e entr yi s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e statemen t tha t i t wa s op s check s good. " MR . MORRIS : Nothin g further , si r JUDG E GOODWIN ; Base do n- • carefu l MR . THORNTON : N o t hi ng .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Di dyo u tri p ove r th e J10 7 o r what ?

MR . MORRIS : Mayb e I'l l ge t lucky an dbrea k mylaptop , sir .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Di dyo u hav e anything ? MR . THORNTON : Nothing .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Ar e w e finishe d wit hthi s witness ?

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Sir , I' mgoin g t o instruc t yo u no t t o discus s you r testimony wit hanybodyprio r t o th e conclusio no f th e hearing . Whil e you'r e permitte dt o sta yi n th e hearin g rooma ^ a technica l advisor , yo u canno t discus s you r testimony . Understan dyo u ca nstil l provid e technica l advis e t o Mr .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Morris , bu t yo u can' t discus s you r testimony ,

wha t yo u said , couldn' t say , o r anythin g else . Understand ?

Hono r

ste p down .

excused. ) TH E WITNESS : I understand , You r

JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Yo u ma y

TH E WITNESS : Than k you . (Whereupon , th e witnes s wa s

JUDG E GOODWIN : Mr . Morris, I indicate dt o Mr . Thornto ntha t I had. a - -

G o ahea dandste p down . I f i t woul db e helpful , I ca ntak e
a pictur e o f that , what' s o nth e - - yo u don' t cal l the mchalkboard s anymore , bu t - -

MR . MORRIS : Whiteboard . JUDG E GOODWIN ; - - whateve r tha t boar dis , andsendi t t o you . Th e reaso nI brin g tha t up i s ther e i s testimonytoda ytha t reference dit , andI think i t migh t b e helpfu l t o someon e wh o reviewe dth e - - I ca npu t i t i n

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1 2 3 4 5 6 

# r8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 a s eithe r Complainant's , Respondent's , o r a

join t o r a Cour t exhibit .

MR . MORRIS : I hav e n o objection . I thin k i t shoul db e a Respondent' s exhibit , sir . And , o f course , I' mno t goin g t o objec t t o it . JUDG E GOODWIN : Mr . Thornton ? -

MR . THORNTON : That' s fin e wit h
me . What , R
- wha t ar e w e on ?

JUDG E GOODWIN ; I t woul db e - - hol do n jus t a second ,

MR . THORNTON : R-10 ? JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . An d wha t I'l l d o a t th e brea k i s I'l l tak e a digital , sho wbot ho f yo u th e digital . An d the ni f that' s okay , wha t I'l l do , Mr . Morris , i s I'l l arrang e t o e-mai l i t t o you , an d i f you'l l the nshar e i t wit hMr . Thornton .

(The documen t referre dt o wa s marke dfo r identificatio na s Respondent' s Exhibi t 1 0 an d

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 receive di n evidence. ) MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . Sir , no w tha t th e witnes s i s of f th e stand , I woul das k tha t th e Cour t tak e judicia l notic e o f FAR Par t 13 , whic hestablishe s th e statut e o f limitation s i n thi s case . Actuall yth e regulator ylimitation s i n thi s case , th e notic e mus t b e issue dtw o year s fromth e dat e
o f violation .

JUDG E GOODWIN ; Giv e m e th e citatio nagain . I didn' t hea r it .

MR . MORRIS : It' s 1 4 CFR , Par t 13 . It' s withi nPar t 1 3 I don' t hav e th e specifi c cit e of f th e to p o f myhead , bu t it' s containe dtherein . Th e actua l statut e o f limitation s i s fiv e years , bu t byregulatio n
w e hav e limite di t t o tw o years . I believ e tha t th e si xmonth s reference di s th e 4 9 CF R 82 1 - - Par t 82 1 rul e dealin g wit hNTS B cases . Dealin g wit hairmen , tha t is , i n fact , si x months . JUDG E GOODWIN : A s t o hi s reques t

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 fo r judicia l notice , Mr . Thornton , d o yo u hav e

anyobjection ?

MR . THORNTON : Obviousl ynot . JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Al l right . It' s a standar dpractic e o f th e Cour t t o tak e judicia l notic e o f thing s tha t ar e commonl y withi nth e real mo f th e publi c an dcertainl y legislatio nan dFAR s andCFR s are .

Mr . Morris, anyothe r witnesses ? MR . MORRIS : No , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Yo u rest ? MR . MORRIS : W e rest . JUDG E GOODWIN : Le t m e as k yo u this , Mr . Thornton . It' s fiv e minute s o f 11:00 . W e ca nbrea k now , com e back , andstar t you r case . O r w e ca nstar t you r cas e and brea k 12-ish . You r call .

MR . THORNTON : A s a resul t o f Mr . Hulett' s testimony , on e o f mywitnesses , th e on e who' s sittin g here , I' mprobabl yno t goin g t o call . Myothe r witnesse s ar e o nth e way . S o i t woul dprobabl ymak e sens e t o tak e a

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 brea k now , i f that' s al l righ t wit hth e Court . JUDG E GOODWIN : Whydon' t w e d o that . Let' s com e bac k a t 12:15 . Wha t I'l l d o i nth e interi mi s I'l l tak e a picture . "T'l l shar e i t wit hth e tw o o f yo u of f th e record . S o we'r e goin g t o - - it' s fiv e minute s o f 11:00 . -Let' s retur na t abou t 12:15 . Well , it' s - - wha t tim e di dyo u tel l you r witnesse s t o b e - - MR . THORNTON : No . They'r e o n thei r way . 12:1 5 wil l b e plent yo f time .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Oh , famou s las t word s There' s probabl ya wrec k o nth e interstate , MR . THORNTON : Well , on e i s jus t comin g fromth e hotel . It' s a fe wblock s
awa y JUDG E GOODWIN : Lik e I said , famou s las t word s

MR . THORNTON : Yes . Bu t a s th e Cour t ha s probabl ycaugh t o nnow , I' mno t completel yfamilia r wit hal l th e rule s and

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 regulation s relatin g t o thes e particula r

hearings . Bu t I've bee ni ncour t before , an d i f I wa s i nFedera l Court , I woul db e makin g a motio nfo r a judgment " a s a matte r of. , law righ t now . An dI woul dmak e tha t motion .

I thin k th e Governmen t ha s faile d t o establis han dcarr ythei r burde no f proof . Mr . Hulet t ha s admitte dtha t h e didn' t d o a n adequat e investigation . Mr . Hulet t ha s admitte dtha t th e mos t h e ca nd o i s speculat e abou t wha t happened . An dMr . Hulet t ha s acknowledge dthat , unles s 1 6 differen t license dperson s involve di naviatio nar e lying , tha t hi s versio no f th e fact s i s no t correct . An dbase dupo nthat , I thin k tha t i t woul db e appropriat e t o rul e a s a matte r o f lawrigh t no wtha t th e Governmen t faile dt o carr ythei r burden .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Mr . Morris , yo u wan t t o respond ?

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . I thin k tha t th e representatio ni s a ta dto o broad .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Again, thi s cas e boil s dow nt o th e

documentatio no r th e failur e t o documen t wha t maintenanc e i s no wbein g identifie da s havin g bee nperformed .

Th e gut s o f thi s cas e is : Here' s wha t th e record s tel l a t th e time , it' s kin d
o f locke di nstone , wha t happened . Tha t doe s no t jiv e wit hth e statement s o f whoeve r thes e witnesse s ma yb e calle dt o testify , becaus e i t ultimatel yboil s downt o a credibilit yissu e tha t th e Judg e mus t mak e a determinatio nis , i s wha t the ysa ya t th e tim e wha t happened ? O r i s i t wha t they'r e sayin g late r o ni ntim e wha t the ysai dhappene dafte r th e agenc y notifie dthem

tha t w e wer e lookin g int o thi s matter . That' s whyth e logbook s themselve s shoul db e give ngrea t weigh t a s t o wha t actuall yhappene dandno t wha t i s supplemente d late r on . We'v e go t n o evidenc e fro many othe r witnesse s tha t tal k abou t - - th e onl y- - strik e that . Ther e i s on e witnes s tha t th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 Responden t di dcal l ou t o f tur n- - an dagain ,

tha t shoul dno t b e considere dfo r purpose s o f thi s motio n tha t identifie dtha t h e di dno t
se e a proble mwit hth e groun didl e versu s fligh t idle . Bu t we'r e no t a t tha t stag e yet . I nth e ligh t mos t favorabl e t o th e agency , th e standar di s al l inference s mus t b e i nfavo r t o th e Governmen t Ther e i s n o indicatio na t thi s poin t tha t thos e logbook s shoul db e questione da t all . The yidentifie dthose . The yplace dthos e there . An dAgen t Hulet t ha s alread ybee n- - testifie dan dsubjec t t o cross-examination .

Now , wha t weigh t yo u provid e tha t i s a differen t matter . Bu t fo r purpose s o f a motio nfo r judgment , I don' t - - frankly , I don' t thin k we'r e eve nclose .

MR . THORNTON ; Ma yI jus t sa yon e thing , Judge ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . On e mor e thing ? MR . THORNTON : On e mor e thin g

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 tha t dow n JUDG E GOODWIN : I' mgoin g t o writ e

MR . THORNTON : Yo u remembe r whe nI starte dou t mycross-examinatio nwit hMr . Hulett , I aske dhi mwha t thi s cas e wa s about . An dyo u eve nsustaine da nobjectio nfo r havin g hi mreconfir mtha t thi s cas e wa s no t maintenanc e documentation . I f the ywante dt o mak e a cas e abou t maintenanc e documentation , the ycould . Bu t th e cas e the ymade , i f yo u loo k a t paragraph s 9 , 10 , 11 , and1 2 o f thei r complaint , i s operatin g a naircraf t 2 7 time s i nunairworthycondition . An dthey'v e faile d t o mak e tha t showing . They'v e faile dt o prov e tha t th e fault ymaintenanc e wa s performe d o n Februar y28 , a s oppose dt o havin g bee na produc t o f troubleshootin g tha t occurre d sometim e betwee nth e 3r dan dth e 5th .

Inference s ma yb e draw ni nthei r favor , bu t the yhav e th e burde no f proof . An d base dupo nth e testimonyo f thi s witness , the y haven' t com e clos e t o carryin g it .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . MORRIS : Well , You r Honor ,

he' s - - an dI appreciat e th e approach , bu t h e i s essentiall ytryin g t o tel l th e Governmen t wha t violation s i t mus t pursu e o r mus t charge . Th e fac t tha t th e underlyin g maintenanc e provide s o r omit s thi s i s probativ e t o whethe r o r no t th e aircraf t wa s airworthyand , frankly , whethe r o r no t the ycoul dhav e eve n performe dor , i nfact , eve ndi dperfor mth e maintenanc e tha t the yar e no wsayin g tha t the y did , whic hi s totall yundocumented .

S o it' s th e undocumente d maintenanc e tha t result s i nth e crossin g o f th e wire s wher e w e hav e th e unairworthy aircraf t conductin g th e flights . An di t i s no t limite dt o jus t th e 2 7 flights , remember . Also , there' s tha t 4313(b ) violatio ntha t talk s about . Performe dmaintenanc e i na manne r tha t th e conditio no f th e aircraf t wa s a t leas t - - wa s no t a t leas t i nit s origina l o r properl yaltere dcondition . S o that' s th e ke y her e i s tha t w e did , i nfact , alleg e th e

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 imprope r performanc e o f th e maintenanc e tha t

i s reflecte dbyth e inadequat e an dth e absenc e o f maintenanc e records .

The yar e tie dt o - - it' s lik e fisca l law . I f it' s authorized , yo u ca nd o it . I f it' s no t authorized , yo u canno t d o it . That' s th e wa ythi s thin g i s structured . An d the yhav e - - wha t ha s happene dher e i s th e testimonyfrom

Agen t Hulet t clearl y establishe s tha t th e procedure s tha t the y represen t tha t the ydid , they , i nfact , ha dn o processes , n o procedures , and , frankly , n o identificatio ncontemporaneou s i nth e logbook s tha t identifie s wha t the ydid i o r shoul dhav e 

### done . { 1 JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . I' mgoin g t o denyi t a t thi s point , Mr . Thornton . An d frankly , I file dth e motio ni never ycas e I
eve r tried . S o - - bu t a t thi s point , tha t doesn' t mea ntha t - - bu t a t thi s time , th e Court' s goin g t o denyth e motion .

We'l l g o of f th e record . Let' s

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 mak e ou r retur nsometim e betwee n12:1 5 and

12:3 0

taken. )

seated . (Whereupon , a brie f reces s wa s

JUDG E GOODWIN ; Counsel , b e

MR . MORRIS : See , Mr . Thornto nand I hav e talked , andw e hav e reache da settlemen t i nthi s case .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Al l right . MR . MORRIS : An dwe' dlik e t o pu t tha t o nth e recor dt o mak e i t clear .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Sure . D o yo u - - I don' t hav e anyproble mwit hputtin g th e settlemen t o nth e record . D o yo u wan t a n orde r t o b e generated , o r d o yo u jus t wan t i t t o b e o nth e record , publis htha t par t o f th e transcript . An dI'l l d o whateve r yo u tw o
wan t MR . MORRI S I thin k it' s th e latter , sir . I don' t thin k w e nee da norde r D o you ?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 MR . THORNTON ; D o w e wan t a n

order , o r jus t pu t i t o nth e recor dandth e transcrip t wil l b e published ?

JUDG E GOODWIN : Le t m e sugges t this . Let' s pu t i t o nth e record , hav e th e cour t reporte r generat e tha t par t o f th e transcript , ge t i t t o myoffice . I wil l hav e i t sen t t o bot ho f you . Yo u two sig nit . I don' t necessaril yhav e t o sig nit . Well , yo u know , you'r e neve r goin g t o b e i nth e offic e fo r th e nex t si xmonths , andyou'r e goin g t o China , s o - -

MR . THORNTON : Al l right . MR . MORRIS : Sir , a s fa r a s th e term s - • JUDG E GOODWIN : Ye s

MR . MORRI S
- th e term s ar e tha t th e Complainan t will

- withdra wth e complain t wit hprejudic e andtha t eac hpart ywil l pa y fo r it s ownattorneys ' fees .

I s tha t accurate , Mr . Thornton ? MR . THORNTON : An dth e recor dof-

-

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 JUDG E GOODWIN : That' s th e whol e

thing ? MR . MORRIS : That' s it .

MR . THORNTON : That' s it . An dth e recor do f thi s wil l b e expunged , an di t won' t b e use dfo r anyothe r purposes .

MR . MORRIS : Yes . Canno t b e use d fo r anypurpose .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Let' s le t m e d o this . Right . Jus t s o tha t I understand , th e agenc yha s opte dt o withdra wth e complain t wit hprejudice .

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : You'r e no t goin g t o object , ar e you ?

MR . THORNTON : I wa s thinkin g abou t it , bu t no .

JUDG E GOODWIN : Eac hsid e wil l b e responsibl e fo r thei r ownattorneys ' fees .

MR . MORRIS : Yes , sir . 

### JUDG EGOODWIN

: Andth eproble mi s stuf f i s marke dfo r

identification , s o wha t

(202 ) 234-443 3 NEA LR

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 I' mgoin g t o d o i s generat e a norde r sealin g

thes e proceedings , pursuan t t o th e settlemen t agreement . Tha t way , i f there' s a cop yi nm y office , nothing' s goin g t o happef i t o i t unles s somebodydoe s something , an dI'l l jus t mak e
sur e tha t everythin g i s sealed .

MR . THORNTON : Well , th e carrie r i s goin g t o wan t t o orde r a cop yo f th e transcrip t JUDG E GOODWIN : Oh , okay . Yo u ca n ge t a cop yo f th e - -

MR . MORRIS : It' s partie s outsid e o f th e - - JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . No . Sealin g i t woul dpreven t i t fromgettin g int o th e publi c domain . Doe s no t preven t yo u o r Mr . Morri s fromgettin g a copy .

S o wha t I' mgoin g t o as k th e cour t reporte r t o d o i s prepar e th e transcrip t i n du e course , ge t i t t o m yoffice . Mr . Morris , yo u kno who wthi s works . Whydon' t yo u chec k wit heithe r Mr .

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1 Liebowit z o r Ms , Matthew s i nwhateve r tim e yo u 2 fee l i s appropriate . Whe nyo u kno ww e hav e 3 th e - - 4 Th e way-"thi s works , Mr . Thornton , 5 i s th e transcrip t get s sen t t o th e FA Ai n 6 Washingto nandt o myoffice . I ge t it . Th e 7 offic e i nD.C . get s it . I t coul db e week s 8 befor e Mr . Morri s find s ou t th e transcrip t i s 9 available . Bu t i f Mr . Morri s wil l chec k wit h 1 0 myoffice , verif ywe'v e go t it , h e the nknow s 1 1 it' s i nth e mail , give s yo u th e opportunit yt o 1 2 orde r a copythe no r now , o r ge t a cop yfrom 1 3 Mr . Morris , andyo u two wor k tha t out . An d 1 4 becaus e we'r e doin g tha t par t o f it , ther e 1 5 wil l a t leas t b e a nadministrativ e record , 1 6 whic hwil l - - I wil l sea l pursuan t t o th e 1 7 settlemen t agreemen t betwee nth e parties . 1 8 Yes . 1 9 MR . THORNTON : Coul dMr . Morri s 2 0 an dI approac hth e bench ? 2 1 JUDG E GOODWIN : Yes . S o we'l l g o 2 2 of f th e recor dfo r this .

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 1 9 2 0 2 1 2 2 th e record . (Discussio nhel dof f th e record. ) JUDG E GOODWIN : We'l l g o bac k o n

Pursuan t t o a benc hconference . th e - - I' mgoin g t o as k th e cour t reporte r t o generat e th e transcrip t i ndu e course . A t th e poin t tha t it' s generated , provid e i t t o Nea l Gross , wh o wil l the nprovid e a cop yt o th e FA A
an dt o DOT . Mr . Morri s wil l chec k wit hmy offic e t o se e whe nit' s available . Mr . Thornton' s goin g t o wan t a cop yfo r hi s use .

An dt o th e exten t tha t eithe r o f th e tw o attorney s agre e o nwha t us e i t woul d be , i t ca nb e used . I t wil l no t b e use di n

any andcorrec t m e i f I' mwrong , M r Morri s - - i nanyfutur e enforcemen t actions . That' s th e inten t o f sealin g it .

MR . MORRIS : That' s correct , sir . JUDG E GOODWIN : Mystandar dorde r fo r sealing , yo u know , applie s t o th e attorneys . I mean , obviousl yparalegal s i n you r offic e ca nrea dit , Mr . Thornton .

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1 Obviousl yth e partie s ca nrea dit . Bu t I jus t 2 wan t t o preven t i t frombein g o n- - i nth e 3 publi c domain . 4 I s ther e anythin g else ? 5 MR . MORRIS : I don' t thin k so , sir . 6 JUDG E GOODWIN : Mr . Thornton ? 7 MR . THORNTON : No , sir . • 8 JUDG E GOODWIN : Okay . Le t m e jus t 9 sayI di d2 0 year s o f tria l work , an dfrom 1 0 persona l experienc e I ca ntel l yo u tha t any 1 1 cas e tha t settles , I think , i s bette r fo r th e 1 2 partie s tha nallowin g somebodyi na blac k robe

1 3 t o wad e throug hi t an dcom e up wit ha nopinio n 1 4 tha t th e rul e o f thum bo nthi s sid e o f th e 1 5 benc his , i f they'r e bot hunhappy , it' s 1 6 probabl ya goo dopinion . S o than k you , 1 7 gentlemen . I t wa s a well-trie d case , an dI 1 8 than k yo u fo r al l you r efforts . 1 9 An dwe'l l g o of f th e record , and 2 0 everyone' s excused . 2 1 (Whereupon , a t 12:5 0 p.m. , th e 2 2 hearin g wa s concluded. )

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# r ^ 51 8 CERTIFICAT E

Thi s i s t o certif ytha t th e foregoin g transcrip t i nth e matte r of : Grea t Lake s Aviation , Inc .

Befor e Hon . Richar dGoodwi n Administrativ e La wJudg e

Dat e : Marc h31 , 201 0

Plac e : Denver , C O 

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### NEA L R . GROS S COUR TREPORTER S AN D TRANSCRIBER S 132 3 RHOD E ISLAN D AVE. , N.W

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