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HELPING STUDENTS SUCCEED THROUGH THE 

POWER OF SCHOOL CHOICE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EARLY CHILDHOOD, 

ELEMENTARY, AND SECONDARY EDUCATION 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, FEBRUARY 2, 2017 

Serial No. 115–2 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and the Workforce 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: 

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/committee.action?chamber=house&committee=education 

or 

Committee address: http://edworkforce.house.gov 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

(II) 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina, Chairwoman 

Joe Wilson, South Carolina 

Duncan Hunter, California 

David P. Roe, Tennessee 

Glenn ‘‘GT’’ Thompson, Pennsylvania 

Tim Walberg, Michigan 

Brett Guthrie, Kentucky 

Todd Rokita, Indiana 

Lou Barletta, Pennsylvania 

Luke Messer, Indiana 

Bradley Byrne, Alabama 

David Brat, Virginia 

Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin 

Steve Russell, Oklahoma 

Elise Stefanik, New York 

Rick W. Allen, Georgia 

Jason Lewis, Minnesota 

Francis Rooney, Florida 

Paul Mitchell, Michigan 

Tom Garrett, Jr., Virginia 

Lloyd K. Smucker, Pennsylvania 

A. Drew Ferguson, IV, Georgia 

Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’ Scott, Virginia 

Ranking Member 

Susan A. Davis, California 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona 

Joe Courtney, Connecticut 

Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio 

Jared Polis, Colorado 

Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 

Northern Mariana Islands 

Frederica S. Wilson, Florida 

Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon 

Mark Takano, California 

Alma S. Adams, North Carolina 

Mark DeSaulnier, California 

Donald Norcross, New Jersey 

Lisa Blunt Rochester, Delaware 

Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois 

Carol Shea-Porter, New Hampshire 

Adriano Espaillat, New York 

Brandon Renz, Staff Director 

Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EARLY CHILDHOOD, ELEMENTARY, AND 

SECONDARY EDUCATION 

TODD ROKITA, Indiana, Chairman 

Duncan Hunter, California 

David P. Roe, Tennessee 

Glenn ‘‘GT’’ Thompson, Pennsylvania 

Luke Messer, Indiana 

David Brat, Virginia 

Tom Garrett, Jr., Virginia 

Jared Polis, Colorado 

Ranking Member 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona 

Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio 

Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon 

Susan A. Davis, California 

Frederica S. Wilson, Florida 

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(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on February 2, 2017 ......................................................................... 1 

Statement of Members: 

Polis, Hon. Jared, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Early Childhood, 

Elementary, and Secondary Education ....................................................... 4 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 7 

Rokita, Hon. Todd, Chairman, Subcommittee on Early Childhood, Elementary, and Secondary Education ............................................................. 1 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 3 

Statement of Witnesses: 

Carter, Ms. Almo J., Parent ............................................................................ 15 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 17 

Kubacki, Mr. Kevin, Chief Executive Director, The Neighborhood Charter 

Network ......................................................................................................... 21 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 23 

Cherry, Mrs. Nina, Parent ............................................................................... 25 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 27 

Williams, Mr. Michael L., Manager, Former Commissioner of Education, 

Texas Education Agency ............................................................................... 9 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 11 

Additional Submissions: 

Courtney, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the State of 

Connecticut: 

Article: Educational Investment That Works And Is Affordable .......... 98 

Mr. Polis: 

Letter dated March 30, 2001, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 104 

Letter dated June 27, 2003, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 107 

Letter dated July 1, 2003, from the United States Department of 

Education ................................................................................................ 110 

Letter dated June 27, 2005, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 113 

Letter dated August 22, 2007, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 116 

Letter dated August 29, 2007, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 118 

Chairman Rokita: 

Estimated Charter Public School Enrollment, 2016-17 ......................... 122 

Letter dated November 7, 2012, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 127 

Letter dated March 30, 2001, from the United States Department 

of Education ........................................................................................... 129 

Slide: #SchoolChoice by the Numbers ..................................................... 150 

Scott, Hon. Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Virginia: 

Letter February 1, 2017, from National PTA ......................................... 31 

Letter February 1, 2017, from National School Boards Association 

(NSBA) .................................................................................................... 34 

Letter February 1, 2017, from American Federation of Teachers 

(AFT) ....................................................................................................... 66 

Letter February 1, 2017, from Texas Association of School Boards 

(TASB) .................................................................................................... 68 

Letter February 1, 2017, from National Education Association (NEA) 70 

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IV 

Additional Submissions—Continued 

Scott, Hon. Robert C. ‘‘Bobby’’, a Representative in Congress from the 

State of Virginia—Continued 

Letter February 1, 2017, from National Coalition for Public Education (NCPE) ........................................................................................ 72 

Questions submitted for the record ......................................................... 152 

Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the State 

of Oregon to: 

Mr. Kubacki ............................................................................................... 155 

Mr. Williams .............................................................................................. 157 

Response to questions submitted: 

Mrs. Cherry ................................................................................................ 158 

Mr. Kubacki ............................................................................................... 160 

Mr. Williams .............................................................................................. 162 

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HELPING STUDENTS SUCCEED THROUGH 

THE POWER OF SCHOOL CHOICE 

Thursday, February 2, 2017 

House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee on Early Childhood, 

Elementary, and Secondary Education, 

Committee on Education and the Workforce, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:11 a.m., in Room 

2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Todd Rokita [chairman 

of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Rokita, Roe, Messer, Brat, Garrett, 

Polis, Grijalva, Fudge, Bonamici, and Davis. 

Also Present: Representatives Foxx, Allen, Takano, Adams, Scott, 

and Courtney. 

Staff Present: Courtney Butcher, Director of Member Services 

and Coalitions; Tyler Hernandez, Deputy Communications Director; Amy Raaf Jones, Director of Education and Human Resources 

Policy; Nancy Locke, Chief Clerk; Dominique McKay, Deputy Press 

Secretary; James Mullen, Director of Information Technology; 

Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Brandon Renz, Staff Director; 

Mandy Schaumburg, Education Deputy Director and Senior Counsel; Alissa Strawcutter, Deputy Clerk; Leslie Tatum, Professional 

Staff Member; Brad Thomas, Senior Education Policy Advisor; 

Sheariah Yousefi, Legislative Assistant; Tylease Alli, Minority 

Clerk/Intern and Fellow Coordinator; Austin Barbera, Minority 

Press Assistant; Jacque Chevalier, Minority Deputy Education Policy Director; Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director; Mishawn Freeman, Minority Staff Assistant; Doug Hodum, Minority Education 

Policy Fellow; Kimberly Knackstedt, Minority Disability Policy Advisor; and Aneesh Sahni, Minority Education Policy Fellow. 

Chairman ROKITA. Good morning. A quorum being present the 

subcommittee on Early Childhood, Elementary, and Secondary 

Education will come to order. Welcome to the first hearing of the 

subcommittee for the 115th Congress. I thank everyone for their 

cooperation. We are starting a little bit late, only to accommodate 

the prayer breakfast held today in our Nation’s Capital. I also want 

to extend a special welcome to our new ranking member, my 

friend, Representative Jared Polis of Colorado. I look forward to 

working together in the weeks and months ahead. I suspect we will 

continue to have our differences, but there is no doubt we share the 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

2 

same goal of helping to ensure every child is prepared to succeed 

in life. Congratulations and welcome. 

Mr. POLIS. Thank you. 

Chairman ROKITA. In recent years, this subcommittee has helped 

advance positive legislative solutions for America’s students and 

families. At the center of those efforts has always been the desire 

to make sure every child has the opportunity to receive an excellent education. That is a mantra we repeat often around here, and 

for good reason, it is a critical goal, and it guides much of the work 

we do in this subcommittee. And it is with that goal in mind that 

we enacted legislation to put K-12 education back in the hands of 

those who know best what students need, their parents, and State 

and local leaders. 

We also made significant progress advancing reforms to improve 

career and technical education, child nutrition assistance, and student privacy. Because there is still a lot of work to do before we 

reach our shared goal, we will continue working together to deliver 

the solutions our Nation’s children and families deserve and need. 

We are here today to discuss one of those solutions: school choice. 

Across the country, efforts are underway to empower parents 

with more options when it comes to their children’s education. My 

home State of Indiana, for example, operates a scholarship program to help children from low-income families, children in failing 

schools, and children with special needs so, that they receive the 

high-quality education necessary to succeed, both in the classroom 

and in life. The State also provides tax credits to individuals and 

employers who donate to nonprofit organizations that award scholarships to these students. And as I am sure our witness, Mr. 

Kubacki, will explain, Indiana’s charter school community has been 

helping students succeed for years now. 

Because these and similar efforts nationwide -- similar efforts nationwide, charter schools are currently serving close to 3 million 

students, and nearly 400,000 kids are benefiting from a private 

school choice program, more than ever before, as we can see from 

the chart above. 

While these numbers will help illustrate the growing popularity 

of school choice, they don’t fully capture the hope and opportunity 

school choice provides, in my opinion. At a committee hearing last 

year, we heard from a truly inspiring young woman named 

Denisha Merriweather. Explaining how school choice changed her 

life, Denisha said, quote, ‘‘The cycle of poverty is ending in my family, thanks to the Florida tax credit scholarship. So many opportunities have been given to me, and I want to create the same for 

other children just like me,’’ end quote. 

‘‘The cycle of poverty is ending in my family.’’ Those are pretty 

powerful words, and Denisha’s is a powerful story. Not only did 

school choice provide her life-changing opportunities, but those opportunities have inspired her to help change the lives of others. Already, the first in her family to graduate from high school and college, Denisha is now working to become the first in her family to 

receive a graduate degree. She has committed to using that degree 

to advocate for expanding educational opportunities to other disadvantaged children and families. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

3 

Denisha is just one of the countless individuals whose lives have 

been changed because their families had a choice. With a new Congress and new administration, we now have an opportunity to extend the power of school choice to other families as well. We will 

look for opportunities to advance school choice and continue our 

work to improve traditional public schools. But make no mistake, 

these two efforts do go hand in hand. We will never turn our backs 

on the millions of students who attend our Nation’s public schools, 

but we also want to ensure parents have the opportunity to choose 

the best school for their children. And this won’t be easy. 

In fact, there is already opposition building against the idea of 

empowering parents with more choices. In many ways, this explains the smear campaign against Betsy DeVos, the President’s 

nominee to serve as Secretary of Education. She has shown her 

commitment to all children through her words, and more importantly, through her actions. Mrs. DeVos has dedicated her life to 

helping some of our Nation’s most disadvantaged students. Because 

she stands firmly for parental choice, she is being attacked, maligned across the country. 

No one on this committee would ever leave their children trapped 

in a failing school. I challenge anyone on this committee to say 

they would. Yet, some would deny other parents their very right 

to do what is best for their children. If we are serious about improving K-12 education, we have to demand better. The Every Student Succeeds Act is the perfect example of what we can accomplish together when we put the interests of students above politics 

-- when we focus on policies, not press releases. I remain optimistic 

that this Congress, we will choose students and advance policies to 

ensure every child receives an excellent education. 

With that, I now recognize Ranking Member Polis. 

[The statement of Chairman Rokita follows:] 

Prepared Statement of Hon. Todd Rokita, Chairman, Subcommittee on 

Early Childhood, Elementary, and Secondary Education 

Good morning and welcome to the first hearing of the Subcommittee on Early 

Childhood, Elementary, and Secondary Education for the 115th Congress. Allow me 

to extend a special welcome to our new ranking member, Representative Jared 

Polis. I look forward to working together in the weeks and months ahead. I suspect 

we will continue to have our differences, but there’s no doubt we share the same 

goal of helping to ensure every child is prepared to succeed in life. Congratulations 

and welcome, Ranking Member Polis. 

In recent years, this subcommittee has helped advance positive, legislative solutions for America’s students and families. At the center of those efforts has always 

been the desire to make sure every child has the opportunity to receive an excellent 

education. That’s a mantra we repeat often around here, and for good reason. It’s 

a critical goal, and it guides much of the work we do on this subcommittee. 

It is with that goal in mind that we enacted legislation to put K–12 education 

back in the hands of those who know best what students need—parents and state 

and local leaders. We also made significant progress advancing reforms to improve 

career and technical education, child nutrition assistance, and student privacy. Because there is still a lot of work to do before we reach our shared goal, we will continue working together to deliver the solutions our nation’s children and families deserve. We’re here today to discuss one of those solutions: school choice. 

Across the country, efforts are underway to empower parents with more options 

when it comes to their children’s education. My home state of Indiana, for example, 

operates a scholarship program to help children from low-income families, children 

in failing schools, or children with special needs receive the high-quality education 

necessary to succeed both in the classroom and in life. The state also provides tax 

credits to individuals and employers who donate to nonprofit organizations that 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

4 

award scholarships to students. And as I’m sure our witness Mr. Kubacki will explain, Indiana’s charter school community has been helping students succeed for 

years. 

Because of these and similar efforts nationwide, charter schools are currently 

serving close to 3 million students, and nearly 400,000 kids are benefitting from a 

private school choice program – more than ever before. While these numbers help 

illustrate the growing popularity of school choice, they don’t fully capture the hope 

and opportunity school choice provides. 

At a committee hearing last year, we heard from a truly inspiring young woman 

named Denisha Merriweather. Explaining how school choice changed her life, 

Denisha said: 

‘‘The cycle of poverty is ending in my family, thanks to the Florida Tax Credit 

Scholarship. many opportunities have been given to me, and I want to create the 

same for other children just like me.’’ 

The cycle of poverty is ending in my family. Those are powerful words, and 

Denisha’s is a powerful story. Not only did school choice provide her life-changing 

opportunities, but those opportunities have inspired her to help change the lives of 

others. Already the first in her family to graduate from high school and college, 

Denisha is now working to become the first in her family to receive a graduate degree. She is committed to using that degree to advocate for expanding educational 

opportunities to other disadvantaged children and families. 

Denisha is just one of countless individuals whose lives have been changed because their families had a choice. With a new Congress and a new administration, 

we now have an opportunity to extend the power of school choice to other families 

as well. We will look for opportunities to advance school choice and continue our 

work to improve traditional public schools. 

Make no mistake: These two efforts go hand in hand. We will never turn our 

backs on the millions of students who attend our nation’s public schools, but we also 

want to ensure parents have the opportunity to choose the best school for their children. 

It won’t be easy. In fact, there is already opposition building against the idea of 

empowering parents with more choices. In many ways, this explains the smear campaign against Betsy DeVos, the president’s nominee to serve as Secretary of Education. She has shown her commitment to all children through her words, and more 

importantly, through her actions. Mrs. DeVos has dedicated her life to helping some 

of our nation’s most disadvantaged students. Because she stands firmly for parental 

choice, she is being attacked and maligned across the country. 

No one on this committee would ever leave their child trapped in a failing school. 

No one. Yet, some would deny other parents the right to do what’s best for their 

children. If we are serious about improving K–12 education, we have to demand better. The Every Student Succeeds Act is the perfect example of what we can accomplish when we put the interests of students above politics. When we focus on policies—not press releases. I remain optimistic that this Congress will choose students 

and advance policies to ensure every child receives an excellent education. 

With that, I will now recognize the ranking member, Congressman Polis, for his 

opening remarks. 

Mr. POLIS. I want to thank Chairman Rokita. And in particular, 

I wanted to thank him for delaying the opening of this committee 

as we have members, including myself, returning from the prayer 

breakfast. I know there will be many others joining us that are still 

on their way back. 

I applaud the topic of today’s hearing. I am certainly a strong 

supporter of high quality public school choice. Choice is something 

that is a fundamental American value in a consumer society: we 

want to choose our clothes; we want to choose our food; we want 

to choose our schools to reflect our values and what we value. And 

before coming to Congress, I have experience in this sector, having 

founded two public charter schools, one for recent immigrants and 

English language learners, and another to meet the unique learning needs of homeless and at-risk youth in transitional housing. 

Both of those schools, New America School and Academy of 

Urban Learning, meet the unique needs and challenges of students 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

5 

meeting them where they are, and provide a chance for them to be 

able to break the challenges they face, and defy expectations, and 

succeed and live the American Dream. 

I am proud of Colorado. I feel Colorado is an example of public 

school choice laws that work and how educational opportunities can 

be a tool for advancing equity and quality in our public education 

system. An example is Denver public schools, which was named the 

best large school district for choice in the country by Brookings Institution in 2015. The way Denver works really helps empower parents through a transparent and non-discriminatory enrollment 

process, meaningful partnerships between charter schools, innovation schools, district schools and strong community support. 

We have, among the different types of schools that serve children 

in this country, district-run public schools, public charter schools 

and independent schools. Of course, there is no single recipe for 

success. I can point to schools in any of those categories, public 

charter schools, district schools, independent schools, that I would 

do anything to avoid having my child of 5 attend, and I can point 

to schools in any of those categories, independent, district-run, and 

charter that I would be proud to send my child to. 

So clearly there is no silver bullet. We wish there were, that simply by having every school run by a district or having every school 

run as a charter, or having every school run independently will 

somehow make every school excellent. It doesn’t work that way. 

There are different models, there are different advantages and disadvantages to both. 

The shortcoming with many of the school choice proposals that 

are being advanced currently are that they allow independent 

schools to maintain selective admission requirements. It requires 

students with disabilities to sign away their rights under the Individual with Disabilities Act, or IDEA, and withhold information 

from parents regarding student performance. 

For a market to work, it really relies on two things: under the 

laws of economics, it relies on perfect information, or as perfect information as you can have, a/k/a transparency, accountability, and 

it relies on rational choice. I think everybody would agree that we 

highly value that parents are always trying to make the best 

choices for their child. I don’t think we doubt that. Where some of 

the choice proposals are problematic is they don’t afford parents in 

communities the type of relevant information they need in terms 

of transparency into what is and isn’t occurring, particularly on the 

independent school side. But that is a criticism that frankly, in 

some areas, has also been valid on the charter school side. I would 

add, in some areas, it is valid on the district side as well. Parents 

should be entitled to more information about how schools are 

doing. 

We have examples of programs that work and don’t work. In 

Ohio, which has been noted for having a weak authorizing law for 

charter schools, there have been a number of instances of schools 

that have falsified attendance records. In Louisiana, low-quality 

curriculum and voucher-participating schools have produced bad 

results for students. In Wisconsin, there has been double-dipping 

in general education funds that have supported students that were 

already enrolled in private schools. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

6 

So I hope that today’s hearing makes clear to the American people that everybody supports and values choice. It’s a question 

around what the parameters of choice are, and what that market, 

which needs to be designed to benefit students and families first, 

needs to look like. 

In this 1954 ruling in Brown v. Board of Education, the Supreme 

Court affirmed that education is necessary for personal and economic success; saying that ‘‘State-funded education is a right that 

must be made available to all on equal terms.’’ If we are truly committed to fulfilling the promise of Brown v. Board of Education for 

all of our children, regardless of not only race, but income, and ZIP 

Code, and language status and disability, we need to invest in 

making sure that schools serve all kids successfully. 

I join Chairman Rokita in commending this committee and this 

Congress in rewriting the Every Student Succeeds Act, ESSA. We 

look forward to engaging in the oversight of that work through this 

committee. I have seen, of course, Republicans and Democrats on 

this committee join with regard to expressing concern for civil 

rights. But unfortunately, many of us on my side of the aisle, myself included, fear that the Republican school choice proposals are 

a back door for undermining the civil rights protections that we 

wrote into ESSA, including those for students with learning disabilities. 

Under IDEA, students with disabilities are guaranteed a free 

and appropriate education. But the private school education programs that exist, where students are sent to independent schools, 

have no obligation to ESSA, and parents’ surveys show that too 

many private schools require parents to fully or partially sign away 

their rights under IDEA. I would point that out in contrast to private placement that occurs through school districts with private 

providers where parents maintain those rights under IDEA. 

What we need are school choice programs that empower parents 

and students with transparency and the information they need and 

quality choices. Many of the Republican school choice proposals 

that have been presented before us offer false choices that could 

only exacerbate educational inequities by requiring that parents 

sign away their rights, stripping parents of their voice and undermining important civil rights for students. 

I wanted to address one final concern I have with school choice 

programs. As co-chair of the congressional lesbian, gay, bisexual, 

and transgender equality caucus, I have concerns about the rights 

of our gay and lesbian students in voucher programs. A 2013 study 

found that at least 115 private schools that participate in Georgia’s 

voucher program have or promote anti-gay or anti-lesbian admission, scholarship, and discipline policies. Some voucher participating schools in Georgia, and I suspect throughout the Nation, 

have policies stating that a student can be expelled for identifying 

as gay or lesbian. 

Now our Nation was built on the principle of equality for all 

Americans, regardless of what people think of the way people 

choose to live their lives in our free society. Public schools, and that 

includes schools that are publicly funded, and if independent 

schools are going to be publicly funded, they would have to play by 

these rules, cannot discriminate and have to be a safe, welcoming, 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

7 

learning environment for all students, regardless of those kind of 

individual issues in their own lives, so their faith, or lack thereof, 

or their sexual orientation. 

Our Nation was built on the principle of equality for all Americans. And it is essential that we empower communities rather than 

promote policies that treat various Americans as second class citizens. 

I look forward to today’s hearing from today’s witnesses about 

how we can strengthen our public education system, rather than 

dismantle it. I thank you and I yield back the balance of my time. 

[The statement of Mr. Polis follows:] 

Prepared Statement of Hon. Jared Polis, Ranking Member, Subcommittee 

on Early Childhood, Elementary, and Secondary Education 

Thank you, Chairman Rokita, for hosting this morning’s hearing on such an important topic. It’s no secret that I’m a strong supporter of high-quality public school 

choice. Before coming to Congress, I founded two public charter schools. One school 

provides education for recent immigrants and English Language Learners, and another serves homeless and at-risk youth. Both of these schools are meeting the 

unique needs and challenges of its students, and providing a chance at the great 

public education that they deserve. 

Colorado is an example of how public school choice can be done well, and how it 

can be a valuable tool for advancing equity in our public school system. That’s the 

school choice I know and the school choice I believe in. A great example is Denver 

Public Schools, which was named the best large school district for choice in the 

country by the Brookings Institution in 2015. Denver truly empowers parents 

through a transparent and non-discriminatory enrollment process, meaningful partnerships between charter and district schools, and strong community support. 

Unfortunately, not all public school choice is made equal. In a number of states, 

weak charter school laws undermine accountability and transparency, and for-profit 

corporations running charter schools put profits before students. 

Republican school choice proposals allow private schools to maintain selective admission requirements, require students with disabilities to sign away their rights 

under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), and withhold information from parents regarding their student’s performance. 

There are numerous examples of the failures of this type of system. In Michigan, 

79 percent of charter schools are run by for-profit corporations, and they have some 

of the worst schools in the nation. In Ohio, a school falsified attendance records to 

receive additional taxpayer funding. In Louisiana, low-quality curriculum in voucher-participating schools has produced dismal results for students. In Wisconsin, general education funds have been drained – largely to support students already enrolled in private schools. In Georgia, data shows that it is actually upper income 

families who benefit from the state’s voucher program, meaning taxpayers are actually subsidizing private education for the wealthy. 

I hope that today’s hearing makes clear to the American people that Republican 

school choice is not the type of choice that will achieve equity of educational opportunity for all children. In its 1954 ruling in Brown v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court affirmed that education is necessary for personal and economic success, 

stating that state-funded education is a right that must be made available to all on 

equal terms. If we are truly committed to fulfilling the promise of Brown for all of 

our children regardless of zip code, income, race, language status, or disability, we 

should invest in our public education system instead of siphoning public dollars 

away from public schools for unaccountable private schools. 

Just last year, this Committee worked in a bipartisan fashion to write the Every 

Student Succeeds Act. Under ESSA, public schools are required to transparently report the performance of vulnerable students and address issues when schools are 

not appropriately serving these students. I’ve seen firsthand Republicans’ on this 

committee’s concern for civil rights. But unfortunately, Republican school choice is 

a backdoor to undermining those civil rights protections we wrote into ESSA. Under 

IDEA, students with disabilities are guaranteed a free and appropriate education. 

But private school voucher programs have no obligation to ESSA, and parent surveys show that too many private schools require parents to fully or partially sign 

away their rights under IDEA. I deeply believe that all students with disabilities 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

8 

deserve the protections and supports to provide them with an equal opportunity at 

a high-quality education as any other student. 

Finally, as co-chair of the Congressional LGBT Equality Caucus, I have deep concerns about the rights of our LGBT students in voucher programs. A 2013 study 

found that at least 115 private schools participating in Georgia’s voucher program 

have or promote anti-LGBT admission, scholarship, and discipline policies. Some 

voucher participating schools in Georgia, and I suspect throughout the nation, have 

policies stating that a student can be expelled for identifying as LGBT or coming 

out as LGBT. Our nation was built on the principle of equality for all Americans— 

including racial minorities, individuals with disabilities, and the LGBT community. 

It is essential that we further empower these communities rather than promote policies that treat them as second-class citizens. 

Republican school choice does not empower parents or students; it is a false choice 

that only further exacerbates educational inequities, strips parents of their voice, 

and undermines important civil rights protections for parents and students. 

I look forward to hearing from today’s witnesses about how meaningful choice 

that supports parents and students can be used to strengthen our system of public 

education, not dismantle it. Thank you, and I yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. I thank the gentleman. 

Pursuant to committee Rule 7(c), all members will be permitted 

to submit written statements to be included in the permanent 

hearing record. And without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material referenced during the hearing to be submitted for 

the official hearing record. 

I will now turn to the introduction of our distinguished witnesses. First we have Mr. Michael Williams. He is a former education commissioner with the Texas Education Agency. Prior to 

this position, Mr. Williams served as the assistant Secretary of 

Education for Civil Rights with the U.S. Department of Education 

under President George H.W. Bush. Currently, Mr. Williams serves 

as the distinguished leader in residence at the University of North 

Texas at Dallas. Welcome, sir. 

Ms. Almo Carter, a mother living and working in Washington, 

D.C. Mrs. Carter’s son, who has Fragile X Syndrome, attends a 

D.C. public school and receives services through the Individuals 

With Disabilities Education Act, IDEA. Ms. Carter served as the 

former chair of the interagency coordinating council, which is an 

advisory panel required under the Individuals with Disabilities 

Education Act. Welcome, Ms. Carter. 

Mr. Kevin Kubacki, serves as executive director of the Neighborhood Charter Network, a grassroots organization that manages two 

public charter schools in Indianapolis, in the great State of Indiana. Enlace Academy and the Kindezi Academy. Prior to this position, Mr. Kubacki served as a school leader with Enlace Academy 

and as a teacher, coordinator, and coach with the Indianapolisbased schools, Cathedral High School and St. Matthews School. 

Welcome, sir, I appreciate your leadership. 

And finally, Mrs. Nina Cherry is the mother of four children who 

attend Tampa Bay Christian Academy in Tampa, Florida. Prior to 

attending Tampa Bay Christian Academy, the Cherry children attended an A-rated public school in Pasco County but had to relocate. In order to provide the best education for their children, Mr. 

and Mrs. Cherry enrolled them in Tampa Bay Christian Academy 

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cation received at Tampa Bay Christian Academy, all four of the 

Cherry children are on the honor roll and excelling. Welcome, 

ma’am. 

I will now ask the witnesses to raise your right-hand. 

Seeing their hands raised, do you solemnly swear or affirm that 

the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 

truth and nothing but the truth? 

Chairman ROKITA. Please let the record reflect that all witnesses 

answered in the affirmative. 

Before I recognize you to provide your testimony, let me briefly 

explain our lighting system. It is pretty self-explanatory. And I outline it only in addition for you as a reminder to those of us up here. 

When you begin, the light in front of you will be green; when 1 

minute is left, it will be yellow; and when time has expired, the 

light will, of course, turn red, at which time you should have 

wrapped up your remarks. I will hold the members to that same 

standard, 5 minutes each for their questions. 

And we will start with you, Mr. Williams. You are recognized 

now for 5 minutes for your testimony. 

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL L. WILLIAMS, FORMER 

COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION, TEXAS EDUCATION AGENCY 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Good morning, Chairman Rokita, Ranking Member Polis, and I see Chairwoman Foxx and members of the committee on Education and the Workforce. Thank you for the opportunity to visit with you today. I am Michael Williams, a lifetime 

proponent, beneficiary and servant of America’s public schools. I 

am the proud son of two public school teachers. My mother retired 

after 40 years, and worked as a high school counselor. My father 

was a math teacher and football and track coach, and retired after 

43 years with the honor of being inducted into the Texas High 

School Coaches Hall of Fame. 

I graduated from public schools in Midland, Texas. I’m here to 

tell you something that has become clear to me during my years 

of work in education. School choice, including private school choice, 

is not a threat to strong public schools. Parents are a child’s first 

and most important educators, they are also a child’s best advocates. Allowing parents to choose the best education options to 

meet their child’s unique needs is good for our education system, 

and our schools. But most important, it is good for our children. 

That is why the education system ought to empower parents to 

make education choices based on what they know their children 

need to be successful. 

My home State of Texas has the second largest K-12 student enrollment with over 4.29 million students, and has experienced an 

increase of 1.2 million students over the past 15 years. On most 

majors, graduation rates, NAEP scores, SAT, ACT scores, AP participation and scores, Texas student performance is on the rise, especially when you compare subpopulations from State to State. 

However, deficient student outcomes persist and the academic 

achievement gap remains extremely stark. Only 49 percent of all 

white students performed at proficient or above on the NAEP 2013 

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formed at proficient or above. Texas desperately needs high quality 

seats for these students. And private school choice could help serve 

them without significantly impacting public school enrollment. 

Despite what you may have heard, private school choice is not 

at the expense of public school students. In fact, 31 of 33 empirical 

studies found that choice improved the performance of neighboring 

traditional public schools. The reality is that choice encourages 

public schools to be more responsive to students’ needs and parent’s preferences. 

In my work, I have come to understand how truly unique each 

State’s educational landscape is. As commissioner, I work with 

local school districts to create solutions that fit them best. It became apparent how distant some Federal education policies were 

from the children served. It is important to strike the right balance 

between accountability for public dollars and the autonomy essential for private schooling, and that is best accomplished at the 

State level. Based on my experience as Texas education commissioner, our State’s accountability system -- and I would dare say 

that of other States, would not appropriately fit private school enrolling choice program participants. 

Having been responsible for ensuring equal access to education, 

and the enforcement of civil rights throughout this Nation, I am 

deeply committed to guaranteeing that all students are treated 

with respect and dignity, and are free from discrimination in their 

learning environment. 

Currently, public students with special needs who are eligible for 

services under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, 

have rights to a free and appropriate public education, and individual services among others. The special needs community has 

fought extremely hard over the decades to guarantee these rights. 

An American education has certainly come a long way. Some choice 

programs are targeted at providing students with disabilities, access to high quality educational options. When parents of IDEA-eligible students choose to place their child in a private school with 

the help of a State-funded choice program, do IDEA rights follow 

that child? 

If an IDEA-eligible student’s parents have chosen to place their 

child in a private school with a choice scholarship, that child is considered a parentally-placed private school student. That student 

has the same IDEA rights as all other parentally-placed private 

school students. This is a path parents can choose independent 

from the school district if a private school’s education program better fits the needs of that IDEA-eligible child. 

So in conclusion, this is not about private versus public. It is not 

about -- this is about empowering parents with the ability to choose 

among high quality, diverse opportunities to fit the unique needs 

of their children. The vast majority of parents will choose their 

local public school. Private school choice provides additional high 

quality options for parents. 

Thank you. 

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Chairman ROKITA. Thank you, Mr. Williams. 

Ms. Carter, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF ALMO J. CARTER, PARENT 

Ms. CARTER. Thank you. Good morning also, Chairman Rokita, 

Ranking Member Polis, and Chairwoman Foxx. On behalf of my 

son, Jacob, I am very pleased to be able to speak here, have this 

opportunity for not only Jacob, but all children with disabilities. I 

thank you for this opportunity to speak on the issue of school 

choice and equitable access to quality education. 

My name is Almo Carter, and almost 9 years ago, I brought 

home from the hospital a baby boy, who I adopted as a single parent. Jacob grew in my heart those 38 weeks before he was born in 

2008. And I am thrilled to nurture, raise up, and love him. 

With my impending return to work fast approaching, I selected 

a wonderful child care center. Immediately following placement, I 

noticed that infants as young as 4 months were meeting developmental milestones that Jacob, who was 7 months at the time, was 

barely approaching. Over the next 15 months, a series of doctor visits revealed Jacob’s underlying diagnosis of Fragile X Syndrome, 

followed by pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified. 

During this time, we were introduced to the Strong Start D.C. 

Early Intervention Program. I will stop at nothing to ensure that 

Jacob realizes his full potential, and develops into a productive and 

positively contributing member of society. Not every parent has 

this time, nor the ability and wherewithal to do so. 

Shortly after we discovered Jacob’s disabilities, I placed him at 

Easter Seals, where Jacob could interact with typically developing 

peers and receive therapeutic services in accordance with IDEA. 

Before Jacob turned 3 years old, we started the transition process 

through early stages. Filled with optimism and encouraged by Jacob’s prognosis, I wanted to make sure that he had -- that I knew 

what those educational opportunities were for him in our community. 

I started with our neighborhood public school, and although it 

had an autism classroom, it was not a placement with which I felt 

comfortable. I also decided to consider some of the high performing 

charter schools, and explore their programming for students with 

disabilities. After attending several charter school open houses, I 

was not convinced that my school choice options understood and 

were equipped to appropriately educate Jacob. I ended up applying 

to a few charter schools through the lottery process, but we were 

unsuccessful in securing a slot. 

With the help of his multidisciplinary team, I placed Jacob in the 

D.C. public schools’ Flagship Autism Program, and he started public school at age 4. After staffing challenges at the school, and 

changes in Jacob’s education requirements as he expanded his capacity to learn, we made an immediate change through his IEP to 

a general education classroom where it was required he receive 

specialized instruction, both inside and outside the general education setting. 

All schools, whether public, charter, vouchers or virtual, must, in 

my opinion, comply with the same comprehensive accountability 

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standards and safeguards in order to be equitable. However, right 

now, only public schools and public charter schools are held to 

these accountability standards and safeguards. When evaluating 

public school choices, it is imperative for families to understand the 

safeguards and protections of IDEA and they are given consistent 

information with which to compare and analyze. Each public school 

choice option should be transparent in communication and held accountable for their responsibility to educate children. A school’s 

number one goal should be the appropriate, effective, and successful education of all students, including those with disabilities. 

When a violation of IDEA occurs, parents have recourse under 

IDEA to activate their due process rights. In my experience, private school choice programs do not provide protections and parental rights akin to those that a public school system has. In most 

situations, parents of students with disabilities are stripped of 

their rights when they enter a private school with a voucher, if the 

private school even accepts the student with a disability in the first 

place. 

Candidly, I perceive the risk of private school choice options to 

be too great and not worth the possibility of foreclosing Jacob’s equitable access to an appropriate quality education. For Jacob -- as 

a mother, I will continue to advocate on behalf of my son and other 

students with disabilities to help ensure that they are all afforded 

equitable access to a quality education. 

Thank you for this opportunity. 

[The statement of Ms. Carter follows:] 

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Chairman ROKITA. Thanks, Ms. Carter. 

Mr. Kubacki, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF KEVIN KUBACKI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE 

NEIGHBORHOOD CHARTER NETWORK 

Mr. KUBACKI. Chairman Rokita, Ranking Member Polis, and 

members of the subcommittee. My name is Kevin Kubacki, and I 

am the executive director of the Neighborhood Charter Network in 

Indianapolis. Thank you for inviting me to discuss how our schools, 

Enlace Academy and Kindezi Academy, illustrate that school choice 

can transform the lives of children. 

I began this work as a charter school leader because I am, first 

and foremost, a father. I know what it is like to hold the hand of 

each one of my three children on the walk on the first day of kindergarten. And I remember vividly hoping that the school would 

see my children the way I see them. That the school would recognize their individual strengths and truly make them the best 

versions of themselves. It takes incredible trust for a parent to 

hand over their most precious creation to a school. And I believe 

that schools must honor that trust. As a father, I refuse to accept 

that other parents might not feel the same trust in their own 

school. With a dedicated talented and diverse board, and equally 

diverse and talented staff, we launched Enlace Academy in 2013 to 

give those parents another choice. 

Enlace is the founding elementary school for the Neighborhood 

Charter Network’s growing family of public charter schools in Indianapolis that believes that every child can and will learn. The 

schools located on Indianapolis’ west side serving families living in 

the international marketplace neighborhood were predominantly 

English language learners. 

In order to address the specific needs of each and every one of 

our students, we use a personalized, blended learning approach 

paired with intentional character development that is rooted in 

core values: lead with love, embrace uniqueness, foster character 

and ignite imagination, so our children can become leaders who 

choose their own futures in high school, college, and beyond. 

Enlace Academy is a grassroots charter school whose name 

‘‘Enlace’’ derives from the Spanish word for ‘‘link’’ or ‘‘connection,’’ 

because the school seeks to be the hub of community for her families in creating meaningful connections with community partners, 

so that our whole families can be healthy and happy. Enlace currently has 365 students, 93 percent of whom are living in poverty. 

Nearly two-thirds of our students are English language learners, 

the highest percentage of any school in the State of Indiana. 

As a result of our high levels of family engagement and commitment, we have created a stable learning environment for our students with a 90 percent retention rate, and 96 percent attendance 

rate. Additionally, on the State assessment, our gross score of 115 

points far exceeded the State average and earned us an A rating, 

which only 24 percent of the schools in Indiana received. We have 

done all of this without having to expel students. We truly believe 

all children can and will learn. 

We are proud of the amazing work our dedicated staff and students who are committed to achieving excellence each and every 

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day. We also believe that our high student achievement results 

from rigorous systems of accountability. As a public school, we are 

held accountable to the State requirements for all schools. As a 

charter school, we are additionally held accountable to our authorizer for high academic achievement, strong financial health, and 

ethical governance practices. Most importantly, though, we are 

held accountable to the families we serve, because ultimately, if we 

don’t honor the trust they place in us, they can choose another 

school that better meets their needs. 

We are excited to be serving families in Indianapolis right now 

because of the strong school choice legislation that exists, paired 

with the collective responsibility for the children that is felt by 

charter schools in Indianapolis public schools, our partner district. 

Enlace Academy is one of the first charter schools to partner with 

IPS as an innovation network school. In this symbiotic partnership, 

we are able to access the economies of scale of the district, and utilize the district facility, and in exchange, we have the autonomy to 

educate kids in our innovative school model whose State assessment scores are counted for the district. 

Furthermore, after seeing success in Enlace Academy, the district extended the partnership by allowing us to implement our 

successful practices in restarting one of their most academically 

challenged schools. We launched this in August as our second 

school, Kindezi Academy. The name Kindezi originates as an African philosophy that preaches taking collective ownership of the 

education of the children, an apt name given the collaborative educational narrative in Indianapolis today. 

While we did receive the charter school’s program grant funding 

when launching Enlace Academy, that option was not available in 

Indiana when we launched Kindezi. And it is only through the 

strong partnership we share with IPS that our school’s open and 

profoundly changing lives today. 

I am so proud to be managing schools that provide parents with 

options that can meet the unique needs of their children, and ensure they reach their potential. Parents, not ZIP Codes, get to decide what school meets the specific needs of their children. Charter 

schools provide parents with options for their child to access a 

high-quality education. 

The charter community now numbers more than 3 million students, and continues to grow as more parents see the power of 

school choice. I believe offering parents broad school choice helps 

all students to compete and serve and attract students to their 

schools. 

I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you this morning and 

look forward to your questions. 

[The statement of Mr. Kubacki follows:] 

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Chairman ROKITA. Thank you, sir. 

Mrs. Cherry, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF NINA CHERRY, PARENT 

Mrs. CHERRY. Good morning, Chairman Rokita, Ranking Member 

Polis, and Chairwoman Foxx, and distinguished members of the 

subcommittee. It is an honor to be here to share my family’s school 

choice story with you. My name is Nina Cherry. I live with my husband, Demetrius, and our four children in Tampa, Florida. School 

choice provided my family with the hope and stability my children 

badly needed. And from the school choice community, we were welcomed into, I know my family’s story is not all that unique. For 

parents, it is not about public school versus private schools. We are 

just looking for schools that meet our children’s needs. 

My children were thriving in a wonderful A-rated Pasco County 

public school. When my husband’s sales commission plummeted, 

we lost our permanent home. Without our home, our children were 

no longer zoned for the public school where they learned and 

thrived. It was an extremely difficult time for us. We spent several 

months couch-surfing as a family of six, staying with friends and 

family until my husband can find a new job. As we bounced from 

school zone to school zone, I decided that I didn’t want my children’s education to suffer because of our family’s economic struggles. 

I heard about Florida’s tax credit scholarship program from a 

friend, and I immediately applied. I was so relieved and beyond 

thrilled when my children were granted the scholarship. I began 

looking into some of Florida’s 1,700 private schools that enroll tax 

credit scholarship students. When I toured Tampa Bay Christian 

Academy, I knew everything was going to be okay. The scholarship 

provided by Florida’s program enables us to send all four of our 

children to Tampa Bay Christian Academy. During that dark time, 

I was so grateful that Demetrius and I could concentrate on getting 

back on our feet, knowing that we found a school that meets our 

children’s needs, educationally. 

Florida’s tax credit scholarship program was a lifeline for our 

family, and I am so thankful we live in a State that provides school 

choice. Our entire family has felt welcome by the school choice community and our school. Tampa Bay Christian provides the family 

environment I wanted for my children, especially during this hard 

time. 

Since my children enrolled in Tampa Bay Christian Academy, I 

have joined the school staff as the administrative assistant. I also 

serve as a senior class adviser and mentor older girls at the school. 

With my employee discount, we pay some tuition for each child, but 

the scholarship makes educating our children in the environment 

that works best for them possible. But the scholarship makes educating our children and the environment that works best for my 

children’s needs. Our children are thriving at Tampa Bay Christian, and all four of them are on honor roll. Some people who don’t 

really understand school choice programs claim they don’t have 

enough accountability. 

For my children’s education the primary accountability rests 

with Demetrius and me. If we don’t feel that the school is serving 

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our kids well, we are empowered to communicate our concerns to 

the school. If we decide another school would meet our children 

needs better, we can move them to that school. 

In Florida, the tax credit scholarship follows a child, even if the 

child transfers during the school year. One of the reasons we chose 

Tampa Bay Christian Academy is because it holds my kids to a 

high expectation, and there is a culture of high achievement. Also, 

Florida tax credit scholarship students have to take an annual test. 

At Tampa Bay Christian Academy, my children are assessed annually in math and reading. And the teachers can use the test results 

to help my kids learn more throughout the year. 

I know my school choice story is not unique. There are over 

97,000 students using Florida’s tax credit scholarships this school 

year. There are over 400,000 students nationwide benefiting from 

private school choice programs, plus millions of students benefiting 

from charter schools, magnet programs, and open enrollment. 

I am very supportive of providing a wide range of options for 

families. Children vary in so many ways. Family situations change, 

and students’ academic and emotional needs can change as well. 

School choice programs, like the Florida tax credit scholarship program, allow parents to find the environment where the children 

will learn best. 

Chairman Rokita, Ranking Member Polis, and distinguished 

members of the subcommittee, I want to thank you once again for 

holding this hearing and communicating to families across the 

country that you are committed to expanding their educational opportunities. I hope that sharing my story here will help make an 

impact on other families. 

[The statement of Mrs. Cherry follows:] 

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Chairman ROKITA. Thank you, Mrs. Cherry. 

We will now entertain member questionings. In the interest of 

accommodating as many members as possible in their schedules, I 

am going to go last in my questioning. 

With that, I will recognize the chairwoman of the full committee, 

Dr. Foxx, for 5 minutes. 

Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, Chairman Rokita, and I want to 

thank all of our witnesses for being here today. I noted such good 

time management on your part, too. 

Mr. Williams, not everyone knows this, but my first experience 

in public office was on my local school board, and I went to public 

schools. I served for 12 years on the local school board. It is always 

frustrating to me that advocates for public education see parental 

choice across the full range of available educational options as such 

a threat. It seems to me that those of us who support greater educational choice need to do a better job of explaining our support. 

We do not oppose public education. Your experience makes it clear 

you do not oppose public education. So how can proponents of 

school choice make it clear that support for giving parents more options to find the right school for their children does not arise from 

opposition to public education? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Madam Chairwoman, I think what we have to do 

fundamentally is to have a conversation with the American people 

about the value of learning and that parents are entitled to make 

a decision that they believe is in the best interest of their children. 

Children have different interests, children have different learning 

styles. Some parents may want a youngster to be imbued with a 

certain kind of, perhaps, a religious experience during their learning. And what you are trying to do is match the student with the 

proper learning environment to be able to make sure that youngster can succeed in life. And so, public school -- there is a great 

value to public school, I was a State commissioner. But there is 

also an opportunity and a value for a private learning experience 

as well. 

Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you. 

Mr. Kubacki, you state in your testimony that your schools have 

accountability to States, your authorizer, and most importantly, to 

parents. Can you expound on why the accountability to parents is 

the most important aspect of the accountability your schools face? 

And what does that accountability look like? 

Mr. KUBACKI. Absolutely. We invite the parents to be part of our 

team for educating the child. It goes back to the proverb of ‘‘it 

takes a village’’ to educate children. And so what we do is we put 

a lot of work in the front end before we open the school, and then 

continually, as the school is in session, to continually invite the 

parents in. We have monthly family events where families can 

come in and see what has been going on in the school. Parents are 

invited to -- we have an open door policy where they are invited 

to come to the classrooms. We connect with the parents to make 

sure they have a clear understanding of the progress of their students, both educationally and in their character development. And 

we see them just as our partners. And we know that if we are not 

serving to meet the needs of the parents, that they are going to 

find a school that does meet those needs. And so for us, we pay 

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very special attention to what are the unique needs for all of the 

families. And as the name Enlace suggests, we will also try to connect those parents to services that they may be able to utilize to 

help make sure that the home environment is stable so that the 

children can come to school ready to learn. 

Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you very much. 

Mrs. Cherry, you said in your testimony that the primary accountability rests with you and your husband, Demetrius. You are 

empowered to find the school that best meets your children’s needs. 

What reaction do you have when you hear the arguments that parents can’t be trusted to make the right decision for their children? 

Mrs. CHERRY. Thank you for the question. I don’t believe that’s 

true at all. As a parent, we know our children better than anybody. 

We know what needs they have. We know the different unique 

learning styles they have. So it kind of saddens me that there’s 

people that think that parents don’t know what’s best for their 

child. Because for me and my husband, we do know what’s best for 

our children. 

Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, very much. And Ms. Carter, I 

want to say to you thank you so much for being willing to adopt 

your child. I think anyone who adopts a child is to be commended, 

and certainly what you have done to be an advocate is to be commended. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. I thank the chairwoman. The ranking member is going to employ a bit of the same model that I have on my 

side so with that, I would recognize the ranking member of the full 

committee, Mr. Bobby Scott -- 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ROKITA. -- for 5 minutes. 

Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would like to submit six documents for the record, letters opposing the harmful Republican school choice proposals from the National PTA, the National School Boards Association, American Federation of Teachers, 

Texas Association of School Boards, National Education Association, and finally, a letter signed by 50 national organizations, including disability advocacy organizations and civil rights organizations, all opposing private school vouchers. 

Chairman ROKITA. Without objection. 

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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the challenges we 

have as legislators is making the best use of the taxpayer’s dollars. 

We know that we don’t have enough money for teacher salaries and 

counselors, after-school programs, reading recovery programs, programs we know actually work. We also know that research on 

voucher programs are clear, they do not lead to academic benefits 

for low-income students. Studies on school choice programs in 

Cleveland, Milwaukee, in Washington, D.C., found that students in 

these programs do not perform any better than students who do 

not receive the vouchers. In fact, in both in Louisiana and Ohio, 

students participating in voucher programs actually performed notably worse than their public school counterparts. So if you have 

no evidence this is actually working, it is a challenge of why we 

should be spending money in that rather than things we know that 

actually work. 

Mr. Williams, in the program -- in the voucher programs that 

you had oversight of, was the number of vouchers infinite or were 

they limited? 

Chairman ROKITA. Mr. Williams, why don’t you use your microphone, please. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. As Commissioner of Education in the State of 

Texas, I did not have jurisdiction over private voucher programs. 

Mr. SCOTT. And the programs you are aware of, are the vouchers 

infinite or are they limited? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. They are both. I mean -- some of the programs 

are limited, as is, I think, we have -- 

Mr. SCOTT. Then how do you decide who gets a voucher and who 

doesn’t get a voucher? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is going to be decided by the State, by the 

State education agency as it develops its program. 

Mr. SCOTT. So the choice isn’t on the part of the parents, the 

choice is whoever gets to decide who gets a voucher. 

On the programs that you have, have you seen studies that show 

that the number of people in private schools actually go up when 

you have a voucher program? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. The number of participants or -- 

Mr. SCOTT. Number of total students in a school system in private schools, does the number in private schools go up when you 

have a voucher program, and the number of people in public 

schools go down? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It goes down but slightly. I mean, you think about 

-- 

Mr. SCOTT. Doesn’t go down by the number of the people in the 

voucher program. If you have 1,000 vouchers, the number of people 

in public school doesn’t go down by a 1,000. Is that right? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It does not. 

Mr. SCOTT. Ok. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. And in Texas, it would not because of the dramatic increase in terms of enrollment, that we sort of enroll about 

85,000 new students in Texas schools every year so that would not 

have an adverse impact upon the number of youngsters in Texas 

schools. As I was going to say earlier -- 

Mr. SCOTT. A lot of the vouchers go to people that would have 

been in private school anyway. 

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Mr. WILLIAMS. It could very -- that could happen, that could happen. 

Mr. SCOTT. Okay. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. But it also could go to individuals that would not 

otherwise be in private school. 

Mr. SCOTT. In fact, two-thirds of the students in Wisconsin and 

half the students in Indiana were already enrolled in private 

schools before they received a voucher. 

On civil rights, people talk about the choice of public schools, Mr. 

Williams. Who gets to choose who gets into a school, is it the school 

or the parent? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it’s going to be the parent, going to make 

the determination about which school they wish to go to. 

Mr. SCOTT. And does the school have to take them? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It depends upon how we established as State education administrations, how we establish what the rules of eligibility and rules of being able to come into that -- 

Mr. SCOTT. Do any of the rules allow the school to decide who 

gets in and who doesn’t get in? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. There are certain circumstances under which that 

might occur, yes. 

Mr. SCOTT. So it’s not the parent, it’s the school. What about disciplinary processes? Does the school get to decide its disciplinary 

processes where they can kick kids out of school? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. The rules for discipline will be no different whether that youngster is coming to that school with a voucher or whether that youngster is coming to school without one. 

Mr. SCOTT. That’s right. The school decides the discipline program. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. If I -- 

Mr. SCOTT. In IDEA. My time is about to run out. InIDEA -- if 

the school does not want to meet the needs of the student, it is the 

parents’ obligation to find a school that does want to meet those, 

rather than everybody has to comply with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Those parents will always have the opportunity to 

return to their home public school. That is always there. 

Mr. SCOTT. The point is that the school does not -- thank you, 

Mr. Chairman -- the school does not have to comply with Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, and that’s one of the problems 

with many of these vouchers. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure we’ll have an opportunity for me to discuss that later. 

Chairman ROKITA. Mr. Williams, do you want to answer the 

question very briefly? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It has been longstanding for -- at the Department 

of Education, that IDEA does not attend to those privately placed 

students. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expired. The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Messer, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. MESSER. With all due respect to my friend from Virginia, so 

much information -- so much misinformation and so little time. I 

mean, we as policymakers sometimes make uncomplicated things 

very complicated. The reality is this: we work through these poliCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

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cies as a Nation. If we stay focused on kids and we stay focused 

on parents, this all gets really simple. Some of the information he 

put forward -- Mr. Scott put forward -- he mentioned the fact that 

some studies show that kids don’t improve much in these programs. Firstly, no studies show legitimate decline. The fact of the 

matter is that parents’ satisfaction in these schools is very high, 

which is another way of saying that the parents that choose to 

send their child to a school feel much better about the life of their 

child. 

Ms. Carter and Mrs. Cherry -- I admire Mr. Williams and 

Kubacki for your leadership and for being here as well. As parents, 

I admire you for coming here and testifying -- Ms. Carter, I actually have a nephew who is autistic, and certainly empathize with 

your point that we need to make sure every kid in America has the 

opportunity to go to a great school, and we are falling far short of 

that as a Nation. And what school choice is really about is trying 

to make sure that in an imperfect world, we give every kid a 

chance. And I believe in school choice, because I trust America’s 

parents. I trust that in the imperfect world we live in, that the best 

way to figure out what is best for a child is to empower a parent. 

And Ms. Cherry, I notice the school that you go to is called Tampa 

Bay Christian, which I would assume has a faith-based component 

to it. Is that –right? 

Mrs. CHERRY. Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. MESSER. And one of the things I believe that we all have to 

understand in modern America today, that we already have school 

choice if you can afford it. If you can afford to move, if you are in 

a ZIP Code that has a failing school or if you can afford to pay for 

another private school option, you have that choice. Would you be 

able to send your child to a faith-based private school without this 

program? 

Mrs. CHERRY. Absolutely not. 

Mr. MESSER. Are you finding that, I would think, an important 

element of your education experience for your children? 

Mrs. CHERRY. Yes. The Step-Up for Students Scholarship and 

Tampa Bay Christian Academy have been an anchor for my family. 

Mr. MESSER. I think, again, when we focus on parents and we 

focus on families, we just remember why shouldn’t everybody have 

that chance? I don’t know that we are ever going to come up with 

a program that is perfect. We sure weren’t perfect before we started trying to find these alternative solutions. But we had parents 

in many places in America today, let’s own it, there’s a million people on charter school wait lists around America, parents who want 

the chance to send the child somewhere else and can’t because they 

can’t afford to do it. And it’s wrong, and it’s long past time that 

we do something about it in America. 

Now Mr. Williams, I would love to give you an opportunity to respond to some of Mr. Scott’s comments, but elaborate a little bit on 

these -- I thought you mentioned at the very beginning, but elaborate a little on this idea that when a parent chooses to go to a 

school, a private school, that they should be treated like everyone 

else at that school, but to try to turn every school in America into 

one uniform bland model, I think, wouldn’t provide better opportunities for our kids. 

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Mr. WILLIAMS. If I could, I would respond to two things: Number 

one is that a parent is making a fundamental choice, and I would 

go back to what Ranking Member Polis said at the beginning, obviously, it is extremely important for them to have adequate information. 

Mr. MESSER. Yes. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. And it is extremely important for them to be able 

to make a knowing and intelligent decision. If we provide them 

with that information, and some parents -- and they do it today -- 

some parents make the decision to take their kid out of a public 

school, and take that youngster with a disability to a private school 

today, because private schools today are indeed educating youngsters with disabilities. And they do it understanding that fate is 

not available to them. They do it understanding that they won’t 

have an IEP, but they say there is something else at that school 

that -- that is why I want my youngster there. Every parent won’t 

make that decision. And that is the beauty of what you are deciding, what you are working on. Every parent won’t make that decision, but some parents do and some parents will. 

The other thing is, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there 

are 31, I think, there is an indication -- 31 of 33 empirical studies 

found that choice did improve student outcomes. While I was the 

commissioner in Texas and not Louisiana, and not fully conversant 

in the Louisiana study, I realized that was a snapshot in time, that 

was a study at the beginning of that program, and we expect it to 

get better results and better scores as it goes along. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expired. The gentleman from Colorado, Ranking Member Polis, is recognized for 5 

minutes. 

Mr. POLIS. Thank you, Chairman Rokita. You know, I want to 

point out as we debate this, that over 90 percent of the students 

in this country go to public schools of some form, so we are obviously spending a lot of time debating that other 8 or 9 percent, but 

90 percent of students go to public schools, including magnet 

schools, and neighborhood schools, and charter schools, and alternative schools, and from all those and many more, there are all 

sorts of models of public schools from the Montessori Sot, to rigorous college prep, to experiential, to arts-focused. So, you know, it 

would be nice for the committee to spend at least 90 percent of our 

time focusing about some of the things that are occurring on the 

public side, as Mr. Kubacki runs a public school, I’m sure can attest to as well. 

I want to hone down on something that Mr. Williams said along 

the same lines that Mr. Scott asked. I want to give Mr. Williams 

the opportunity to clarify a statement he made. His words, I fear, 

might have been a bit misleading with regards to those who are 

unfamiliar with requirements of the IDEA, because it gets very 

technical and very legalistic. 

Mr. Williams, in your testimony, you stated that if a public 

school district has made FAPE, Free Appropriate Public Education, 

available to an IDEA-eligible student, and the student’s parents 

have, instead, chosen to place their child in a private school with 

a State-funded private school choice scholarship, that child is conCEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

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sidered a parentally placed private school student. That’s what you 

mentioned. 

And you also said that student would then have the same IDEA 

rights as all other IDEA-eligible, parentally placed private school 

students. So I want to hone down on that and I want to be clear 

about which IDEA rights parentally placed private school students 

enjoy. 

Parentally placed private school students give up their right to 

a free and appropriate public education, which we call FAPE and 

related services, an obligation to provide the services under Federal 

law. So parents who use a State-funded private school voucher give 

up their right to FAPE, meaning the school district is not required 

to pay for FAPE, including things like private placements. And the 

private school, then, is not required by law to provide any particular special education-related service that would meet the requirements of FAPE, like speech therapy, or assistive technology, 

or whatever that might be, so long as the student remains in that 

private school. 

The only exception to this would be limited child fine services, 

perhaps an evaluation to determine IDEA eligibility if the evaluation had not been conducted previously. But Federal IDEA funds, 

and the right to Free Appropriate Public Education and individual 

services that come with an IEP, do not follow parentally placed students to private schools. Only when an IEP team determines a private school as the best placement, that’s a placement through the 

school district mechanism, and I will remind you that parents are 

part of the IEP team, only then do full IDEA funding, and more 

importantly, rights, follow the student to the private school. 

So, Mr. Williams, when a student participates in a State-funded 

private school voucher program, does he or she maintain the right 

to FAPE? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. She does not. 

Mr. POLIS. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that. 

Chairman ROKITA. For the record, Mr. Williams, she does not. 

Can you use your microphone? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. She does not. 

Mr. POLIS. I also wanted to quote one other aspect of your testimony back to you. You mentioned, quote, ‘‘I am deeply committed 

to guaranteeing that all students are treated with respect and dignity, and are free from discrimination of their learning environment.’’ How can you make that assurance of schools that don’t 

allow gay or lesbian students to attend, and to the parents of those 

gay and lesbian students? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think, first of all, it goes back to what the other 

protections afforded to those students under current Federal law, 

and I would suggest to you that whatever the current the Federal 

law provides those youngsters, those youngsters would be entitled 

to. 

Mr. POLIS. And I would point out to my colleagues, we would 

welcome their support to extend the protections of Federal law on 

the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. And I welcome 

my friends on the other side of the aisle to join me and Mr. 

Cicilline in support of the Equality Act, which would do just that. 

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Ms. Carter, in your testimony, you talked about your own extensive search to find the right school for your son. And you mentioned you considered many kinds of public schools, public charter 

schools, and other district-run schools. The National Center for 

Special Education in Charter Schools is taking steps to help advocate for students with disabilities in charters. There is a number 

of processes around helping parents make the right decision for 

their child, and in your testimony, you spoke about applying for a 

charter, but not being selected in the lottery system. 

Can you share more about your own decision-making process? 

And why you personally value school choice and the opportunity to 

consider multiple schools? And I understand your child is not in 

the neighborhood school, but is in the school that you found to be 

most appropriate for your child and with the best program. So if 

you could talk about how your process for finding the best public 

school for your child in 20 or 30 seconds, that would be great, and 

you can submit more later. 

Ms. CARTER. Thank you, excuse me, member Polis. Yes, we -- my 

experience is based on professional and personal advocacy. And in 

that context, it is about research, investigating what is available. 

And so, it’s important to be able to understand what I am comparing. So I look to the accountability standards that are in place. 

I chose to stay in the public arena simply because ‘‘A,’’ my child 

has disabilities, as well as the fact that I am a taxpayer, and I am 

a public school recipient, so I support public education. And— 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expired. I’m sorry. 

Ms. Bonamici, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. BONAMICI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and ranking member, for holding this hearing about school choice. Here is 

an example of some excellent school choices in the district I am 

honored to represent. The Beaverton School District has -- in 

northwest Oregon, has a really diverse student body, more than 

100 languages, spoken in student homes. There’s an international 

IB school, a magnet schools focusing on environmental sciences and 

health careers, science and technology program, an arts and communication magnet, which is where my own daughter went to 

school. Two of the district public schools have STEAM-focused curriculum. They have two districts reported charter schools with language immersion programs in Spanish and Chinese. There is a 

community high school, an early college high school with an optional partnership with the community college, and an open enrollment process for students in neighboring districts. 

Families in Beaverton district have considerable choice and don’t 

have to sign away their rights to Federal civil rights protections, 

or give up transparency or student achievement when they make 

that choice. I wanted to mention, when I listened to the testimony, 

parents across this country want a school for their children that 

has high expectations, like Ms. Cherry mentioned. And they want 

a school that recognizes your student’s individual strengths, like 

Mr. Kubacki mentioned. These are qualities are not exclusive to 

private or religious or charter schools. 

There are great private schools in the district I represent, they 

are not taking tax dollars from public schools. And as policymakers, our focus should be on making sure that all schools have 

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the resources and the support they need to maintain those qualities, and I know that the chairman, in his opening remarks, said 

parents don’t want their children trapped in a failing school. Now 

people have different definitions of what failing school means, 

schools are buildings, maybe they are schools where many children 

are having more challenges. And we as policymakers should be saying, we don’t want any failing schools. So that should be our focus 

to make sure that all students have opportunities. 

I wanted to ask you, Ms. Carter, students of color, students with 

disabilities, LBGTQ students like Mr. Polis was talking about, are 

really disproportionately affected by suspensions and expulsions. Of 

course, we don’t know the data for voucher programs, because private schools are not required to publicly report that information. So 

should public dollars be used to fund schools that can discriminate 

against students? And what safeguards do we need to make sure 

your son receives a high-quality education as a student who has 

rights under the IDEA? 

Ms. CARTER. Yes, thank you. First of all, no. No school should be 

able to discriminate. We do have laws in place, and when you are 

not in a position where you can have access to laws that protect 

parents and students with disabilities, or different students’ rights, 

then—that—therein lies a problem. And so with IDEA, there are 

those protections; the FAPE, Free Appropriate Public Education; 

there’s also, in the least restrictive environment, so that we don’t 

have students educated in segregated classrooms which are called 

self-contained classrooms. 

And we also have the notion of due process, where we have access to the law, where we have an opportunity to be heard and 

given that notice with respect to what the rights are. 

Ms. BONAMICI. Thank you. And I want to ask Mr. Williams a 

question before my time expires. But thank you, thank you very 

much. Mr. Williams, your testimony didn’t discuss the challenges 

of school choice programs in rural Texas. I represent a lot of rural 

Oregon, and it is not surprising that rural districts in Texas are 

some of the strongest opponents of the proposal in Texas to shift 

public education funding to education savings accounts, because 

rural communities often have just a single school. It is the community hub that has been serving the student’s parents and grandparents, and it’s where people gather and there is no other school 

in that town, or even in a close proximity, so small-town school systems don’t have the economies of scale. 

So can you explain to my constituents in Oregon’s rural areas 

why they should give up needed funding to a handful of private 

schools that aren’t near their community, especially when these 

private choice programs have an unproven academic outcomes, and 

do not serve all students? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I will start initially, because it is going to give 

those families more choices to acquire the learning that they need 

for their youngster. We have been having this conversation in 

Texas and elsewhere, as if it’s the only thing we are talking about, 

is moving a youngster from one building, Thomas Jefferson, to another building, perhaps St. Thomas Aquinas. But in rural Texas, 

and we haven’t won this argument yet, but in rural Texas, with 

that education savings account, perhaps they can buy Mandarin 

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Chinese from a distance learner -- distance provider; maybe they 

can provide -- acquire some kind of math skill because you can’t get 

a master math teacher in ‘‘Scatback,’’ Texas, maybe you can buy 

that from -- 

Ms. BONAMICI. My time is about to expire. I appreciate that. But 

we just got our graduation rates back and our online high school 

had very embarrassing, pathetic graduation rates of 28 percent. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentlewoman’s current time has expired. 

Ms. BONAMICI. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Brat, is 

recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. BRAT. Thank you, Chairman. To the panel and Mr. Williams, 

I’ll ask the question. I am an educator. I taught Randolph-Macon 

College down the road a couple of hours for 18 years, economics 

and ethics. Went to seminary and then did a Ph.D. in economics, 

so I am a confused person. So I just got back from the prayer 

breakfast. Very nice, bipartisan, across-the-aisle stuff. We get along 

more than the press gives us credit. And so, this can be a contested 

issue, right? I mean, we have differences in strategy, but one of the 

things I saw—I taught freshmen—coming into my classroom all the 

time. And I think one of the things some of us on this side of the 

aisle consider is just kind of the one-size-fits-all nature sometimes 

of education. And my public schools are top in the country. So my 

kids both got excellent education. But nationwide, we are now competing with the rest of the world. We all want the kids to excel, 

right? 

So you can look at the Ps and test scores. I ran regressions on 

too much of that stuff for too many years, and I won’t go into all 

the details. But the point is we have got kids that don’t know what 

a business is after they graduate from high school. They don’t know 

a price from a cost from a profit. They can’t define any of it. Right. 

And then the kids get to go to college, that’s great. But the kids 

that don’t go to college, they don’t know what business is, and they 

are going to work. 

So I think we have huge work to do, whatever solutions we all 

agree on. And then I taught ethics and went to seminary, et cetera, 

and there is no such thing as just ethics. Right? There is the Aristotelian school of ethics, or Kantian ethics, or Christian ethics, or 

Confucian ethics. Right? There is no ethics. And what system of 

ethics are we teaching in K-12? None. The kids come to college, 

they don’t know one system of ethics, they can’t name one theologian philosopher, et cetera. So that’s why some on this side of the 

aisle, we just want to see some variety when it comes to the curriculum -- the monopoly model -- it is hard to crack up monopolies, 

right, in economics, or monopoly in politics, or monopoly in any 

business that doesn’t produce the best outcomes. 

So we just want to see some variety. And Bobby and I are in Virginia, we have a tremendous Achievable Dream school that is in 

the inner city, and has just done unbelievable job, charter school, 

public charter, and they do phenomenal. Right? The kids are introduced, they walk and meet the police officers, at the beginning of 

the day, they have stock market gains, they learn about business, 

they got a tennis program, all the kids go to college and it’s phenomenal. And so, we all are trying to find that for all of our kids. 

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And then getting to my question, right, the political tensions are 

high. Right after the election, everyone’s bombing each other on 

Facebook right now, and the tone’s not good. 

So I am trying to keep the tone good. And so, one of the questions I get back home from constituents that have major concerns 

are, we have some of the best public schools in the country in my 

area, but we all want to see kids in the poorer areas, and the inner 

cities have some choice. 

I think that is part of the issue that is on people’s minds right 

now. But then the question from constituents is ‘‘Well, won’t the 

school choice movement pull funding from public schools?’’ What 

would you say to those suburban moms and dads who are concerned and have anxiety that if we move towards choice, that 

money won’t come from their public schools? What is the variety 

of funding options available that would ease some of the anxiety 

out there? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, depending on how you design it, let us keep 

in mind that most of the school choice plans that I have seen, that 

whatever the per capita spending amount is, the voucher, or whatever that is, is less than that, and so there is still going to be sort 

of the delta that is available for the public schools, and that body 

is no longer in that school. And so, you are not having to be concerned about that piece, because you don’t have to educate the 

child, and some dollars are still get to remain with the public 

school. 

But I think more importantly, what we ought to be doing, I 

mean, to my left are three parents that have children with three 

different sets of needs. And we should be creating opportunities for 

all of those needs to be satisfied in a public school, public learning 

environment, and that includes private schools, because everybody 

can’t -- everybody doesn’t do the same thing. I mean, all these 

schools aren’t designed to do the same thing. We ought to put parents in the best position to find the school that meets the needs of 

their child. 

Mr. BRAT. That’s great. Thank you. I have about 30 seconds. I’ll 

just kind of add, I teach economics, and in economics, you try to 

maximize utility. And so, there -- everyone is going to debate across 

the aisle what are the test scores and comparisons, and they’ll say 

they are not that great, we will say they are great. Even if we compromise and say, let’s say they are dead even, it seems to me it’s 

kind of analogous to working for a firm. Sometimes you just want 

to go to work for that firm instead of that firm. Right? There is a 

tone at the top, you like the CEO, the principal, you like the vice 

principal. Your kid may be socially stigmatized at one school, they 

feel better going to another school, et cetera. And so that is my impetus for the school choice option, is I think the kids do need some 

variety, parents need some variety. I worked for several years at 

the State level -- 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expired. The 

gentlelady from California, Ms. Davis, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. BRAT. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you very much for coming in today. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank 

you to all of you for being here. We know it is a great effort to do 

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that. Ms. Carter, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your 

experience, I know we have had to cut you off. Just -- you had to 

really navigate a very complex school system as you branched out 

and looked at everything. Could you talk about one or two instances where you were testing the transparency of the system 

itself, and access to information for a parent, any parent, but particularly a parent who was interested in the policies that have been 

enacted at the Federal level for IDEA over the years? How did you 

learn that? How did you actually get a handle on that? 

Ms. CARTER. It was challenging. 

Mrs. DAVIS. As a former school board member, I understand that, 

so -- 

Ms. CARTER. So it really is searching for opportunities. When I 

look at my child, and for him, it is about equitable access to a high 

quality, excellent education. And so, it is understanding who the 

players are, kind of learning about -- being clear on what my child’s 

needs are, and then searching for those opportunities that can best 

meet my child’s needs. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Did you have a sense that the school did a good job 

in making sure that they had data -- they had backup information, 

so they could even describe to you how services for, say, another 

child, not by name, but just generally, how they really demonstrated that they were doing what you were hoping they would 

do? 

Ms. CARTER. The short answer is no. It’s about having -- getting 

access to information. And admittedly, I am a parent who has time, 

who has information available to me, so it still is a pushing, pushing, pushing from the school. And so one of the things that I focus 

on is trying to expose and make available, not just to Jacob, but 

to all students, and particularly those with disabilities, asking 

questions, pushing. So it is not something that just happened. 

Mrs. DAVIS. I wanted to just let you know, because I am concerned about this, and I think others are as well. There was a recent development last evening where my colleagues actually filed 

the need to move forward to take away some of the important protections that children have, which would basically say to States, 

you don’t have to file -- follow really any guidelines in tracing the 

improvement, and tracing the performance of young people in 

schools. Would that concern you that perhaps we’re moving away 

from that, so that States might really be doing this very differently? If you were to move, for example, you might move to a 

State that had decided they weren’t going to follow up with— 

Ms. CARTER. That would be a— 

Ms. DAVIS. Understanding how we disaggregate data, whether 

children of color, whether children who -- where we must adhere 

to IDEA would be followed? 

Ms. CARTER. No. Accountability is key. And so something like 

that, if that didn’t exist, then there wouldn’t be a way to even 

measure whether or not there is equitable access, or even a highquality education. So these regulations are critical as it relates to 

a high quality education -- 

Mrs. DAVIS. Yeah. Could I ask the rest of you? Would that be 

your concern, or do you think it is important that States have 

guidelines to follow, to be sure that they’re -- making sure that all 

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children are receiving a high-quality education? We disaggregate 

that data and we know what is going on? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it is important for us as States to have 

some guidance. But I will be honest with you, in many areas, let’s 

say academic accountability, some of us were there before the national government was, and I think some of us were designing assessments and accountability regimes beforehand. Obviously, No 

Child Left Behind was birthed somewhere else and came here. So 

in some of these matters, I think the States are in very good stead 

to be able to protect our citizens, and do so in a way, that is quite 

laudatory. But there was no doubt that having the participation, 

and maybe even the leadership and the guidance of the national 

government would be helpful at times. 

Mrs. DAVIS. Anybody else want to comment on that? 

Thank you, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman ROKITA. I thank the gentlelady for yielding. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Grijalva, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. GRIJALVA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like Ms. Davis, my 

colleague, I served on a school board back home in Tucson for 12 

years, and I think my question kind of goes to another part of this 

whole discussion, it is a discussion of how much of the Federal dollar, public dollar that goes to public education is going to be diverted or sent a different direction in terms of vouchers, for profits, 

private. 

In that position, we had to deal with mandated issues like IDEA, 

mandated, and necessary, by the way. Civil rights protections, 

equal access for all children, Title IX so that boys and girls got the 

same opportunities at all levels, and English learners. 

Laws that controlled what we did, open meeting laws, financial 

disclosure in terms of the budget and the audits attended to that 

particular school district, and the list goes on. And the public scrutiny that had to be there in order for a school district to be functional. 

My question is, as we go forward, there are two standards that 

seem to appear: there is the standard on public education in terms 

of the points I just outlined plus more, and a kind of nebulous 

standard as to what we do for private, for-profit charters that is 

different. Is there -- and I will ask Mr. Kubacki and Mr. Williams 

for a response -- don’t you feel that the reaction to, I think, the 

proposition that many of us have, that people should play by the 

same rules, that if on the governance of a private for-profit; that 

there should be transparency, there should be rules that apply to 

the financials; there should be disclosure of salaries; there should 

be academic disclosures; and the list goes on, and that all children 

coming need to be taken in, given the mandates that the public 

schools have. Do you feel that would -- do you think that is fair to 

set the same playing field for everybody -- Mr. Williams, Mr. 

Kubacki, either one. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that is a fair aspirational goal, but I do 

not believe that is the law you established here. The law you established here first of all you haven’t exercised jurisdiction over private schools generally, and here you have exercised jurisdiction in 

title VI and title IX— 

Mr. GRIJALVA. Yeah but— 

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Mr. WILLIAMS. And IDEA as relates to -- 

Mr. GRIJALVA. But Mr. Williams, we are talking about extending 

that jurisdiction, you know, if we are talking about the increased 

prominence of private schools in terms of the support they are 

going to get from the Federal Government in terms of money. 

Should requirements follow the money or should it be open-ended? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. The recipient of those dollars is not that private 

school. The recipient of that dollar is the mother, or the father, the 

parent, the guardian, and you haven’t exercised jurisdiction over 

that individual. 

Mr. GRIJALVA. And as you said, the final arbiter, the ultimate is 

the empowerment of that parent, okay. And—but as a balance, as 

a check and balance, shouldn’t some requirements, at the minimum, financial disclosure be required? Investment strategies, open 

meetings? So we know when these schools meet and who is governing them? And what decisions they are making-at the very minimum shouldn’t that be a public acknowledgment as opposed to an 

individual parent acknowledgement? We are not eliminating that 

parent’s choice, we are just saying the rest of us that are helping 

pay the bill should know what is going on. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. You want to have—sort of get to the right balance 

between those issues. But I think we have got to be real careful 

about treating that private school as if it is a public school. So is 

there— 

Mr. GRIJALVA. Given what the nominee for Secretary of Education and her opposition to any reasonable regulation for charter 

schools or for-profit schools, is there a Federal role in insuring that 

taxpayer funds are not being abused? Is there? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is a conversation for you to have here, and 

there will be some role, of course. The question is how much of a 

role, and how do we reach the right balance of allowing that private school to function and to adequately serve those youngsters 

that come to it. 

Mr. GRIJALVA. Thank you. And I am broaching that conversation. 

I appreciate it. 

Yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman yields back. 

The gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Garrett’s, recognized for 5 

minutes. 

Mr. GARRETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

So I think the metric that matters here isn’t what day of the 

week these schools meet, it’s not how long they meet. The metric 

is student success, right? And so, ultimately, I want to introduce 

myself to this committee and this subcommittee, and I’ll tell you 

that I believe in the nature versus nurture argument, in nurture. 

I believe in nurture. I believe that no child, regardless of their national origin, regardless of their skin color, regardless of their parents’ socioeconomic status or educational attainment, is more able 

to succeed or fail than another, but that if the child is placed in 

a circumstance where the child can succeed and encouraged and 

given appropriate instruction, that the child will in all likelihood 

succeed. 

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tunity. And I see children being left behind every single day by virtue of circumstances beyond their control, and that is a ZIP Code; 

that’s a parent who loves their child no differently than I love my 

own, but who doesn’t have the financial wherewithal to place themselves in the circumstance where they can assure their children the 

best educational opportunity. 

And we had this fight again and again during my time in the 

State legislature, and there, one party said, look, we have really 

good public schools except for where we don’t, and we need to ensure that the young people in those areas also have an opportunity. 

Are the children failing those schools? No. The schools are failing 

the children. I understand there’s a plethora of inputs: socioeconomic status, educational attainment of parents, et cetera, et 

cetera, so forth and so on. But if we know to a metaphysical certainty that in one ZIP Code schools are failing, then shouldn’t we 

change how we do business? 

So I would, Mr. Chairman, direct my questions at this juncture 

to Ms. Cherry. 

Ms. Cherry, you were, in fact -- your children were in public 

school in Pasco County. 

Mrs. CHERRY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. GARRETT. And you were happy, very happy with the outcomes that your children were seeing in Pasco County, your husband Demetrius and yourself? 

Mrs. CHERRY. That is correct. 

Mr. GARRETT. And we’ve heard conjecture that people might flee 

public schools if these opportunities are made available, but you 

only left those public schools in Pasco County after financial calamity, beyond your control, struck your family. Am I correct? 

Mrs. CHERRY. That is correct. 

Mr. GARRETT. Okay. You would have remained in those schools 

with which you were happy. 

Mrs. CHERRY. That is correct. 

Mr. GARRETT. And so had Florida not had a system wherein, I 

believe, what, 79,000 young people received scholarship opportunities, your children would be in school where? 

Mrs. CHERRY. I’m not sure, because when it was time to enroll, 

we didn’t have a permanent address, so I’m really not sure. 

Mr. GARRETT. But, ultimately, you ended up at Tampa Bay 

Christian. 

Mrs. CHERRY. Correct. 

Mr. GARRETT. Do you feel that the educational opportunities afforded to your -- was it three or four children? 

Mrs. CHERRY. There’s four. 

Mr. GARRETT. -- four children at Tampa Bay Christian are sufficient for them to be able to live successful lives here in the United 

States of America? 

Mrs. CHERRY. Yes, definitely. 

Mr. GARRETT. Okay. And this was made possible because somebody in Florida decided to break from the status quo and think outside the box. 

Mrs. CHERRY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. GARRETT. Okay. And so if somebody hadn’t, can you say with 

any certainty whatsoever that your children would be receiving 

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what I would argue they’re entitled to, which is the opportunity 

provided by a solid education? 

Mrs. CHERRY. I couldn’t say that. 

Mr. GARRETT. Okay. Thank you. 

And -- I talk too fast. Mr. Williams, I would move my questioning 

to you. Ultimately, we look a lot at per-pupil expenditures. And 

what I’ve seen from the studies that I’ve reviewed in my previous 

legislative experience, a much smaller format, was that the perpupil expenditure does not decrease commensurate to the number 

of individuals who leave a school. In essence that, if we’re funding 

a particular school to the tune of $12,000 per pupil and a pupil 

leaves, that only a percentage of that funding leaves with that 

pupil. Is that accurate? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is true. The only thing that changes is the 

number of students that the school has. 

Mr. GARRETT. So, but, if the average per-pupil expenditure is 

$12,000, then let’s say that $6,000 follows the student, the money 

follows the child, then that leaves a surplus at the school from 

whence the child came, in most instances. Is that correct? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Correct. 

Mr. GARRETT. And so, ultimately, now what we have is, if resources are the question, a greater number of resources per pupil 

as that child is subtracted from the total number of children in the 

school. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Quite possible. 

Mr. GARRETT. And so, if you could help me, because I’m completely missing something here, what would the argument against 

having a greater per-pupil resource base at what had -- some parent might have identified as a school not providing their child an 

opportunity, what would the argument against that greater perpupil resource base be? I’m missing it. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I can’t help you much with that. What I think it’s 

just simply a fundamental philosophical difference in allowing folks 

to move to private schools. 

Mr. GARRETT. And so, Mr. Chairman, I’ve got about 15 seconds. 

Ultimately, though, I’d ask Mr. Kubacki, and I apologize if I’m pronouncing your name wrong, should the goal not be that every child 

receives the education they need to have the potential to succeed 

in this Nation? 

Mr. KUBACKI. Yes. 

Mr. GARRETT. Thank you. 

Chairman ROKITA. Wonderful. Yes or no question. The gentleman’s time’s expired. I thank the gentleman. 

My friend, the former ranking member of the subcommittee, Mrs. 

Fudge, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I thank 

you all so much for being here today. 

Let me just make two comments, the one that my colleague just 

made about he couldn’t understand why people are concerned 

about a student leaving if they retain a certain amount of the 

money. It’s just basic math. Schools are based upon the number of 

kids they project are going to be there. So you still have to pay all 

the bills, you have to pay all the teachers. If you lose a student, 

it makes a difference. 

CEWDOCROOM with DISTILLER

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And as well, Mr. Chairman, I think maybe there comes a point 

where we need to raise our hands up here too about telling the 

truth. My colleague, Mr. Messer, made a blanket statement about 

our ranking member saying that he was not correct, but, in fact, 

Mr. Messer had no basis in fact for making the statement. 

Let me just be clear with you. I’m from the State of Ohio. We 

have an EdChoice voucher program. A study by the voucher people 

indicated last year that students who participated in that program 

did considerably worse than similar students in the public schools. 

So, in fact, there is indeed a legitimate decline in achievement in 

some of these programs. So I just wanted to make clear to Mr. 

Messer that , in fact, is the case. 

Ms. Carter, school voucher proponents do not believe that private 

K-12 schools receiving publicly-funded vouchers should follow the 

same rules as public recipients of federal funding. For example, the 

nominee for education secretary, Ms. DeVos, refused to say that all 

schools receiving federal aid should be held to the same accountability standards, including IDEA, which I don’t think she even 

knew what it was. 

Could you elaborate on your assertion that all schools should be 

held to the same accountability standards and safeguards? 

Ms. CARTER. Yes. Thank you. So with respect to the same standards, that accountability and transparency is something that can 

also be measured. And the standardization of that allows for families to make an informed choice, because choice is a good thing, but 

it’s about having an informed choice so that you know that your 

child has an equitable access to that high-quality education. So targeted professional development, training of all the teachers and 

educators that are going to be working with students is critical to 

have that equity, if you will, and to have a measure that supports 

the delivery of a high quality education. 

In addition to that, noting that it’s an individualized notion, it’s 

based on the needs of that individual student, and when you have 

standardization as it relates to transparency and accountability, 

those safeguards, then again, you have something with which to 

measure, to compare, and analyze. 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you. To you as well, Ms. Carter. We’ve repeatedly heard that the argument that private school choice programs 

provide parents with the opportunity to select the best school for 

their children. When describing your search for quality education 

options, you stated, the panoply of choice, this is your words, was 

narrowed and, in fact, not a viable choice for your son. Please explain how your choices were limited in your search because of his 

disability. 

Ms. CARTER. Yes. So with respect to a high quality education, 

what’s important for Jacob was the fact that teachers, again, were 

trained, they had an understanding of what his disabilities are, 

what the requirements are, and that’s what IDEA does under 

FAPE and least restrictive environment. So I had confidence that 

I had an understanding, but I also had something with which to 

measure whether or not the particular choices had that. 

And when you’re looking at private placements, and not through 

the public school system, but private placements, they don’t have 

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viding those related services that he needs, the specialized instruction that he needs. 

And so, again, our focus was on the public system, because there 

are safeguards in place whereby I can go and see and count on 

there being accountability associated with what those services are. 

Ms. FUDGE. Thank you very much. 

And I would just say to this committee, I am not an opponent 

of charter schools, I am not an opponent of vouchers; I am a proponent of public schools. Ninety-plus percent of the children I represent go to public schools. So I need to be sure that someone is 

looking out for the 90-plus percent as well as the 8 to 10 percent. 

And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentlelady yields back. 

Ms. Adams from North Carolina, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, Chairman Rokita and Ranking Member 

Polis, for allowing me to visit this subcommittee. I do want to 

thank our panelists for their testimonies. 

And like many of you, the importance of education is personal to 

me. I’m a parent, grandparent, I’m also an educator by training. 

Forty years, four decades I spent as a professor at Bennett College 

in North Carolina preparing students, many of whom have gone on 

to be teachers across the country. So -- and it’s clear that from the 

nomination of Betsy DeVos for Secretary of Education that it appears that the administration intends to push a private school 

choice agenda that will, I believe, undermine public education. 

Having said that, Ms. Carter, I want to thank you for sharing 

your experience with us today. Fifty million students who make up, 

as has just been said, 90 percent of America’s school children attend public schools. All of my children and grandchildren attended 

public schools. And so the choice taxpayer funds that would otherwise go to public schools serving the vast majority of our students, 

it diverts them to private schools. 

Ms. Carter, you spoke about your strong sense of duty and advocacy on behalf of your son, Jacob. Can you speak a little bit to the 

amount of time that it took to navigate the school system, how your 

journey might have been impacted if you knew you had a high 

quality public school in your neighborhood? 

Ms. CARTER. Yes. If there was a high quality school in my neighborhood, it certainly would have relieved some of the anxiety and 

stress that has gone into the process. And at least it’s something 

that would be accessible, and, again, not just to Jacob, but what’s 

available in the community, that individualized notion that has a 

place, a centralized place where Jacob has a chance, a real chance 

to be successful and to have access to that high quality education. 

Ms. ADAMS. Okay. The Every Student Succeeds Act requires 

States to develop and implement challenging academic standards 

to ensure that students are career ready or college prepared, standards that apply to all students, except for students with the most 

significant cognitive abilities who are assessed on the easier alternate assessment. Private schools such as those used in many 

voucher programs are not required to abide by ESSA. They do not 

have to set standards, assess students to ensure that they’re college and career ready, or provide information about academic 

achievement to parents. 

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Ms. Carter, you mentioned that your son is included in the general education classroom with peers of his same age. How important is it for students with disabilities to be held to these standards, and can you describe how this has helped Jacob to be successful in school? 

Ms. CARTER. Yes. First of all, high expectations, those standards 

that are in place -- I have high expectations of Jacob. I think we 

as parents all have high expectations of our children to be successful. And communicating those high expectations is critical, because 

when you set the tone and you -- school systems understand that 

not only are parents taking their responsibility seriously, but it’s 

the fact that you are helping to promote those high quality standards. 

Jacob is going to college, and it’s a particular thing that I spend 

a lot of energy speaking to all the schools, the administrators, the 

educators, kind of that same thing. Jacob is going to college. And 

as a result of that, I have to make sure that he is appropriately 

prepared to be successful in college. 

Ms. ADAMS. Thank you. 

Mrs. Cherry, did anyone inform you of your right under Federal 

law to keep your kids enrolled in their home school when your family experienced homelessness? 

Mrs. CHERRY. I actually went to the school and told them that 

I was moving. So I had to -- I was actually told that I was zoned 

out of the school. There’s a process that you had to go through to 

get back in, but with the time -- I didn’t have time to do that, so 

that’s why I had to choose. 

Ms. ADAMS. So were you informed, though, that you could have 

kept -- 

Mrs. CHERRY. No, I was not. They never told me that. 

Ms. ADAMS. Well, that’s the problem. I think parents do not have 

the necessary information that they need. 

I just wanted to quickly ask Mr. Williams, you know, you pointed 

out that many voucher programs don’t test at all, others use tests 

differently. How are you able to approve the impact on student 

achievement and hold schools accountable? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think what you could do here is to direct us as 

the SEAs that design accountability programs that would require 

some level of testing. And I think most private schools would be 

more than happy to use our basic test or use their ACT or SAT for 

high schoolers. 

What I said in my opening remarks is that our accountability 

system that we use today, and I think that of the other 49 states, 

would not neatly fit on top of private schools. That, I would discourage us to do, is to say that the exact accountability system that 

I have now for my public schools and traditional charters, that we 

apply that directly to the private schools. 

Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, sir. I’m out of time. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expires. I thank the 

gentlelady. 

Mr. Takano, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. TAKANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Betsy DeVos, the nominee for Secretary of Education has advocated for a lack of oversight and regulation in Michigan’s charter 

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school law. As a result, it has 33 for-profit organizations that run 

79 percent of the State’s charter schools. Detroit, overwhelmed by 

bad choices for children, produced the worst math and reading results among all U.S. cities. 

In my own district, I have a constituent, Sarah Vigrass, who 

works for California Virtual Academies, managed by K12 Incorporated, a for-profit education company supported by Ms. DeVos 

and her family. In her 10 years there, Sarah has seen firsthand the 

decline in amount and quality of materials and high teacher turnover rates driven by K12 Incorporated, maximizing their profits 

and not investing in students. 

My question is for Ms. Carter. Ms. Carter, do you believe forprofit entities can serve their bottom line as well as their students 

effectively? 

Ms. CARTER. No, I do not. 

Mr. TAKANO. And why was a for-profit charter school not the best 

option for your son? 

Ms. CARTER. As it relates to Jacob, because he has disabilities, 

it’s about individual needs, what his needs are. And in inquiring 

these for-profit entities, I discovered that they could not tell me 

what they were going to be able to do to support what his needs 

are. And the fact that there aren’t standards or there’s no accountability as it relates to what children with disabilities need, and all 

children, for that matter, that didn’t make me comfortable. 

Mr. TAKANO. Well, it’s interesting that the -- I think we have a 

public interest in making sure that schools, this idea of competition 

and accountability that exists among schools, but we’re not the -- 

we’re totally leaving that out of the picture in terms of Federal 

money being used for these schools. 

The Department of Education collects extensive data on public 

schools, including achievement, enrollment, discipline, bullying, 

harassment, and special education information. These data collection procedures provide transparency to stakeholders and allow for 

the Department and State educational agencies to intervene, if necessary, to reduce and prevent discriminatory practices. Private 

schools are not required to report the same information, even if 

they accept vouchers in most States. 

Ms. Carter, in your testimony, you said you researched and became very informed about public school choice options in D.C. Do 

you feel the transparency of schools about their academic outcomes, 

discipline practices, and special educational services are important 

in determining the best education for your son? 

Ms. CARTER. Yes, I do. And I do because diversity is critical, diversity in terms of what kinds of students are made up in the environment, as well as the opportunity for all children to succeed. Inclusion is critically important. And so knowing that information is 

a part of the process of determining whether or not this particular 

school choice is what would be best for my child. 

Mr. TAKANO. In your opinion, what other information is critical 

in ensuring your son receives a high quality education? 

Ms. CARTER. Knowing the background and the training and the 

credentials associated with the educators who are going to be providing that kind of support and services to my child; in addition to 

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apy, those kinds of related services that my child needs; knowing 

what those credentials are so that I can evaluate whether or not 

I feel that this is a good choice for my child to be successful. 

Mr. TAKANO. And you’re telling me that information wasn’t always available to you? 

Ms. CARTER. Not in a for-profit environment, no. 

Mr. TAKANO. That’s interesting. 

Mr. Williams, it’s come to light that several Trump appointees to 

serve in leadership roles at the U.S. Department of Education have 

a history of expressing bigoted comments. These appointees have 

made blatantly racist, Islamophobic, transphobic, and homophobic 

remarks. 

Now, as the former head of the Office of Civil Rights at the Education Department, is it appropriate to have individuals like this 

at the helm of ensuring educational equity and nondiscrimination 

based on race, religion, and sexual orientation? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Takano, without accepting the beginning of 

your question that they have indeed made such comments, let me 

go to what I think is the thrust. 

Mr. TAKANO. I’m just asking you, sir -- 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Let me go to the thrust. 

Mr. TAKANO. No, no. These appointees have also -- look, is it appropriate for anyone who’s made blatant racist, Islamophobic, 

transphobic, and homophobic remarks to serve in these capacities, 

whose job it is to ensure that there’s educational equity and nondiscrimination? Would you -- would you countenance -- 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would love to have an opportunity to answer the 

question. 

Mr. TAKANO. Sure. 

Chairman ROKITA. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Mr. Allen, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. ALLEN. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

having this hearing today. 

The best example that I know of school choice is a school that 

we developed in my district called Heritage Academy. And that 

school is there for those single parents who can’t afford to send 

their children to a private school. And through some tax initiatives 

in the State, business people are able to support these children. 

Now we’re up to 200 students. And I attended an assembly there 

over the holidays, and I have not seen the energy to learn and to 

develop musical skills and athletic skills and reading skills, I’ve not 

seen that anywhere in any school that I think I’ve ever visited. 

And so, again, these are single parents who -- and unfortunately, 

there is a huge demand for this school that we can’t meet. I mean, 

it’s -- we’re topped out at 200. In many cases, these kids are actually told that they really don’t belong in the public school system, 

and the parents don’t have a choice. So that is a tremendous success story and why I believe that the American people, just like 

health care, they want choice. I mean, don’t mandate and don’t 

waste my taxpayers’ money, you know. 

And so, with that, Mr. Williams, what is your reaction to the 

anti-school choice advocates who argue that we should not give 

families more choice, because too few of the students can benefit, 

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and then argue for and actively pursue barriers to expand those 

benefits to more students? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I’m saddened by it, quite frankly, because 

what we ought to be doing, as I’ve said before, is that we should 

be doing our best to find in a way that we can match youngsters 

and their particular needs. And youngsters have a variety of different needs. With our 5.2 million youngsters in Texas, I’m not 

going to say we have 5.2 different kinds of needs, but we’ve got a 

wide variety of them. And what we should be trying to do is to put 

parents and guardians in the position to match needs with schools. 

Kids are very, very different. And the public schools in Texas, I 

think, do an outstanding job of trying to satisfy the needs of those 

youngsters, but that doesn’t mean there’s not another place in the 

private school community for us to satisfy those needs as well. 

There’s enough room and there’s enough demand, there’s enough 

challenge for both traditional public schools and charters and private schools to be present to provide opportunity for our students. 

And going back to something that was asked of me earlier, you 

know, at the end of the day, we haven’t seen -- in terms of school 

choice programs around the country, we haven’t seen exit rates, 

you know, greater than 8, 9, 10 percent. At the end of the day, I 

would still have almost 5 million kids in Texas public schools. And 

so we have to be focused on enhancing public schools while we give 

parents and guardians the opportunity that, if they don’t want or 

choose -- want to make a decision for their kids not to go to a traditional public school, to find a school that meets that kid’s needs 

somewhere else. 

Mr. ALLEN. And thank you so much for that response. In fact, we 

have a public school, inner city school system in my district in 

Lawrence County in the city of Dublin where they have a STEM 

school and also kind of an economic school in the two elementary 

schools. And parents were there at 5 o’clock in the morning on a 

Saturday morning to sign their kids up for one school or the other. 

That’s what I’m talking about. That motivates and that is school 

choice, and it’s wonderful. 

I have just a short period of time. Mr. Kuback -- Kuback -- 

Mr. KUBACKI. Kubacki. 

Mr. ALLEN. Kuback. Okay. The purpose of school choice is to provide parents the opportunity to find the right educational environment for their child. Do you believe charter schools are the only 

way to help parents find the right place? 

Mr. KUBACKI. No. 

Mr. ALLEN. Isn’t it important to have a variety of options for parents to choose from where they’re searching for the right replacement? 

Mr. KUBACKI. Yes. 

Mr. ALLEN. What are some things that can be done to ensure 

parents have access to the choices they want? 

Mr. KUBACKI. One of the really effective things that we’ve started 

in Indianapolis is our Enroll Indy program, where it is -- it’s an 

open enrollment program for parents to be able to, they have one 

place where they can go, they can see the variety of options that 

are available to them. It’s one application for them to fill out. And 

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it makes it a little bit more of an equitable process for all parents 

to be able to see their options and choose in an intelligent way. 

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. Mr. Courtney, you’re recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COURTNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for letting me visit for 

a few minutes here. 

And, you know, again, we all have great stories to tell, the States 

that we come from. I come from Connecticut, and I just visited a 

Blue Ribbon school a couple of weeks ago, which is an old-fashioned 

red brick public school with a, you know, the locally enrolled kids 

that are there. It also happens to be a population that is kids 

whose parents work at the Groton Navy base. It’s the oldest submarine base in our Nation. 

And when you talk about challenges, these are kids whose parents are -- whose fathers largely, but now women are coming on 

as part of the submarine force, are deployed and, you know, very 

transitory, in and out. I mean, that is a challenge for the school. 

But with all of the requirements to honor IDEA, you know, all the 

anti-bullying, all the other accountability measures, they are still 

just hitting it out of the ballpark in terms of scores, in terms of 

math and reading, and has, again, been recognized nationally in 

terms of -- so, you know, I think it’s really -- there’s a narrative 

out there that, you know, public schools are hopeless. 

And, you know, visiting that school, you know, a week or so ago 

after they got the Blue Ribbon designation, I mean, the fact of the 

matter is that good leadership, teamwork, involving parents, you 

know, there are public schools that are doing an outstanding job 

out there, and, you know, that’s, you know, where the 90 percent 

of kids are enrolled these days. 

Also in Connecticut, since the court ruling came out, Sheff v. 

O’Neill, we’ve employed a magnet school approach to try and break 

down racial isolation, because, as Ms. Carter eloquently stated, you 

know, trying to, you know, have kids learn in a more diverse classroom is, I think, something that the Supreme Court recognized in 

Brown v. Education, and I think most thoughtful educators agree 

is a positive goal. 

The charter school track record in terms of that issue of racial 

isolation, frankly, is just far inferior to the magnet school experience. The city of New London, which is one of the most distressed 

municipalities in the State of Connecticut now, is all magnet, and 

they’re drawing kids in from communities outside of the city limits. 

They have, again, focuses, because we’re upgrading the submarine 

force, we’re hiring now in terms of the STEM curriculum, and that 

with the magnet focus, they are actually opening doors to both diversity and quality and a connection to workforce needs that is, I 

think, you know, one of the models for how we sort of move forward 

as a Nation, but we don’t do it by throwing out accountability. 

These magnet schools are public budgets that have to, again, pass 

muster through all of the process that the boards of education have 

to do with their schools, unlike vouchers, which are basically just 

disconnected from accountability. 

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And, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to add to the record an article 

which, again, describes the magnet school experience in the State 

of Connecticut, I ask unanimous consent to have it entered. 

Chairman ROKITA. Without objection. 

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Mr. COURTNEY. And, again, just the New York Times actually did 

an analysis of Connecticut’s experience with magnet school’s policy 

a couple of decades ago compared to the charter school experience 

in the city of New York. And what they found is that the goal of 

diversity has been, again, far more successful with the magnet 

school approach, again, with no cherry-picking in terms of what 

kids can go there. 

My daughter went to one of these. It was a life-changing experience for her in terms of just having the opportunity to interact with 

kids from different walks of life that would not have happened in, 

you know, in a charter necessarily or the local public school. And, 

again, there’s just no question in terms of where the value is as far 

as achieving those goals. 

So it’s not a binary choice here. It is not vouchers versus public 

schools. And, frankly, I am still a believer that we can improve 

education for kids through the old-fashioned way, like the Charles 

Barnum School in Groton, Connecticut, and that we can also have 

a publicly accountable system of attracting kids from more diverse 

backgrounds without just basically throwing money up in the air 

and hoping it lands in the right place. 

And with that, I yield back. 

Chairman ROKITA. I thank the gentleman. 

I’m going to recognize myself for 5 minutes to ask some questions. Again, I appreciate hearing from the witnesses. 

I want to start with you, Mr. Williams. Your testimony talks 

about the changing behavior of public schools once there was competition, for lack of a better word, I guess. And it’s been my observation, you know, I’ve probably been to 100 schools throughout the 

country, public, private, good, bad, everything in between, but it 

would also be my observation, because competition is part of 

human nature, you know, competition works in politics, competition works on a basketball court, competition works in nearly every 

facet of our life, yet we heard this morning from some of the questioners that they would seem to be desperately afraid of competition. 

When you said behavior was changed or the performance of 

neighborhood public schools changed, can you give me some specifics about what you’re talking about? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think in many ways imitation is the highest 

form of flattery. What we have seen -- in my experience from both 

as commissioner as well as the president of a Catholic school board, 

what we’ve noticed is that the public schools, let’s say, around us 

at our Mother of Mercy, the public schools around us, they started 

extending the hour, the school hour, because we started extending 

the school hour and getting better results. We started having a different kind of parent-teacher meeting with our parents where we 

were giving them more and more information about how well their 

youngsters were doing and what we were going to plan for them 

in the next session or next semester, and our public schools around 

us began doing that. 

What we see sort of statewide is that we see the offerings of public schools expand. You now have a charter school, quite frankly, 

which is a public school, the charter school now offering Mandarin 

Chinese. And now we see other public schools who are trying to do 

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similar things because they realize that’s what parents really -- 

some parents really want that. 

So in terms of offerings, in terms of how the school relates to the 

parents, in terms of sort of how the school operates day by day in 

terms of perhaps its hours, perhaps what it does on the weekends, 

those kinds of things I’ve seen that -- 

Chairman ROKITA. Have you noticed increased performance of 

the neighborhood public school since the introduction of -- 

Mr. WILLIAMS. In that one, I cannot say that the performance of 

the -- 

Chairman ROKITA. You can’t -- 

Mr. WILLIAMS. -- surrounding the public schools and the doughnut around it increased significantly. In large part, I can’t say that. 

At that time, I was not commissioner and I did not have access to 

their scores. 

Chairman ROKITA. Yeah. So you just don’t know? It’s not that it 

didn’t happen? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right. 

Chairman ROKITA. Thank you, Mr. Williams. 

Now, Mr. Kubacki, your testimony is slightly different, not necessarily contradictory, but different in the sense that you rely heavily on your relationship with the public school, local public school 

district, in order to claim rightfully your success. Critics of school 

choice, you know, talk about -- they don’t use the word ‘‘competition,’’ they would use a term like, quote, ‘‘pitted against,’’ unquote. 

What do you think of the concept of competition as it relates to 

your work and your relationship with the public school system? 

Mr. KUBACKI. So I don’t see it as an either/or choice. I see that 

we collaborate with the public schools and are able to actually work 

with them to bring our model into even some of their own most 

academically challenged schools. I think if you look at the environment around Enlace when we first started, the schools that were 

around that neighborhood, it was kind of hit or miss whether or 

not it was a good school. Now, 4 years into it, all the schools 

around us have increased. I wouldn’t be so bold as to suggest that 

we were the only driver behind that, but I would say that because 

we’ve been there and are a good neighbor, we do collaborate with 

the schools around us, we do share best practices. I think it just 

has helped with the general academic environment of the neighborhood. 

Chairman ROKITA. Okay. Thank you. I’m sticking with you, Mr. 

Kubacki, your testimony discussed your second school, in Kindezi 

school, opened because the district came to you to restart one of 

their failing schools. You said that happened because of the partnership your school had with the district schools. Expound on that 

partnership just a little bit. 

Mr. KUBACKI. Sure. So in Indianapolis, we have legislation that 

allows the district to work with 501(c)(3)s to partner in what’s 

called the Innovation Network Schools. And so it’s symbiotic in 

that we have access to some of the district resources, the most important being facility, and the district then gets our accountability 

scores as well. So it’s a payoff, and it’s granted an added layer of 

accountability for our schools, because we are also accountable to 

our contract with the district, but I think it lends towards that idea 

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of we share the collective responsibility for all of the children. And 

if something’s working really well in a charter school, then it’s 

something that would be worth bringing into the public school district. 

Chairman ROKITA. Thank you. And I have questions for the other 

two witnesses as well, but I’d be hypocritical if I let myself go on, 

because, as you can see, we’re now 14 seconds over time. So I want 

to thank the witnesses again for their testimony. 

And I want to recognize the ranking member for his closing remarks. 

Mr. POLIS. Well, thank you. I want to thank our witnesses, and 

I join Chairman Rokita in that. I want to thank our members on 

both sides of the aisle who joined us. Based on attendance, it’s 

clearly a topic that’s important. 

Mr. Allen did reference people who are anti-school choice. I 

haven’t heard anybody on this panel, Democrat or Republican, who 

voiced anything other than support for the concept of school choice 

and letting parents choose, but, of course, all school choice is not 

created equal, and distinctions need to be made. And my Republican colleagues have oversimplified what school choice means, 

even to the point of parents signing away their rights. 

There’s certainly a difference between public school choice and 

the privatization of education, and we should not lose sight, as Ms. 

Fudge said, that over 90 percent of students in our country are 

served by public schools. Many of us support policies that increase 

choice for high quality public schools, policies like open enrollment, 

magnet schools, that Mr. Courtney mentioned, charter schools, and 

others. Ms. Carter eloquently shared her own personal story, of her 

process for finding the right school to meet her son’s needs. 

When it comes to education, a one-size-fits-all policy simply 

doesn’t work, and choice is important. Ms. Carter did extensive research and exercised her choice after meeting with a number of 

schools, traditional public and charter, and decided what was best 

for her son. 

That being said, Ms. Carter spoke about some of the challenges 

she faced choosing the right school, and that’s the case for many 

parents. School systems aren’t often transparent enough about options, transportation remains a barrier to making school choice 

meaningful, and that’s why it’s important that we lift up and support all of our public school options. It’s also why many of us find 

some of the options that Republicans have put on the table for private school choice troubling. 

In her confirmation hearing, Donald Trump’s nominee for Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, refused to say that she wouldn’t 

take money away from public schools to pay for private vouchers. 

That should concern any of us who care about public schools and 

the 90-plus percent of students that they serve. 

Today’s hearing also brought to light what Republican school 

choice means for students’ Federal civil rights protections. Private 

schools are often not subject to requirements under Title VI, Title 

IX, IDEA, ADA, and ESSA. In fact, many parents are forced to sign 

away their rights under IDEA. I want to be clear on this. We had 

some clarifying questions, but the law is clear. Under U.S. Department of Education guidance, it clearly states that parentally-placed 

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private school children, and that’s in contrast to private placement 

students under IDEA, have no individual entitlements to a fair and 

appropriate public education. Using the private vouchers, which is 

called parentally-placed private school child, does not have those 

rights, and, in fact, signs them away. 

With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I’d like to submit some 

2001 guidance, under President Bush’s Secretary of Education, on 

this issue. 

Chairman ROKITA. Without objection. 

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Mr. POLIS. And just to quote in part this memo from March 30, 

2001, it’s still enforced, ‘‘under IDEA, ‘‘such parentally-placed private school students with disabilities have no individual entitlement to a free appropriate public education, including special education-related services in connection with those placements.’’ 

So, again, it’s not about who the provider is. There are many private providers that through private school placement under IDEA, 

the parents maintain those full rights. And I would add those 

aren’t always private schools; they’re often private services that are 

contracted by the school district. They can be, in extreme cases, an 

entire school, even a boarding school in another State. And I’ve 

heard of that in some cases, if that’s the only appropriate education, but the parents maintain those rights. And under this advisory and the law, they lose those rights when they become parentally placed. And so that’s very important to emphasize. 

Private schools can also deny admission to students with special 

needs and students who identify as LGBT. And for many of those 

reasons, we should be concerned about Federal taxpayer dollars 

supporting institutions that are allowed to discriminate. 

I’m a strong supporter of school choice, but not the school privatization proposed by my Republican colleagues. Independent schools 

are independent for a reason. They want to remain independent, 

and that’s perfectly appropriate and a fine decision that they make. 

If they want to play by the same rules as public schools and accept 

students without discrimination and without parents signing away 

their IDEA rights, there’s common ground to find a way to work 

together. And many school districts do contract with private providers in their district under those terms and conditions. 

My first and foremost priority is supporting the education of students across our country, and we want to make sure that we encourage rather than discourage transparency and accountability, as 

well as promote civil rights for all schools that are publicly funded. 

I yield back the balance of my time. 

Chairman ROKITA. I thank the gentleman. 

In closing, I’d like to respond to the gentleman by submitting 

some -- also submitting some records -- or excuse, some documents 

for the record, some of -- at least one of which, I noticed, is the 

same one he referenced. So I’d ask unanimous consent to enter into 

the record a study from the National Alliance for Public Charter 

Schools on the estimated enrollment in charter public schools for 

the 2016-2017 school year, and letters from the Department of 

Education from 1990, 2001, and from the Obama administration in 

2012, each of them confirming that parents who choose for their 

child to attend a private school, including as part of a public scholarship program, are making a choice, in fact, making a choice that 

school is the right fit for their child, as allowed under IDEA and 

any of our other civil rights laws. 

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Chairman ROKITA. So, again, when parents have a choice, I truly 

believe every kid has a chance, and that’s what this hearing is 

about. It was said earlier in this hearing that we tend, up here and 

in the Federal Government, generally to overcomplicate things. 

Ms. Carter, I believe you can make the best choice for your child, 

as you did, just as Kathy and I can make a great choice for our 

Teddy and his little brother Ryan. Teddy, by the way, has 

Angelman syndrome, which is a sister syndrome to what your boy 

has. So please know, I walk in your shoes on a lot of this stuff, but 

I truly believe that we can decide for Teddy what is best for him 

and have the options. And I also understand how difficult it is to 

get information sometimes. And if I had time to question Ms. Cherry, I’d ask how she found out the information in more detail, because I think that is very important. When parents have a choice, 

kids have a chance. 

So this discussion is going to continue. We’re emboldened with 

the opportunity of having a partner in the White House and the 

Department of Education who can see that same value proposition 

and could help us direct more funds, so that parents do have that 

choice. 

Seeing no other business before the committee, we’ll stand adjourned. Thank you. 

[Additional submission by Mr. Rokita follows:] 

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[Questions submitted for the record and their responses follow:] 

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[Mrs. Cherry’s response to questions submitted for the record follows:] 

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[Whereupon, at 12:14 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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