### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 1**  

### UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY **ENERGY EFFICIENCY & RENEWABLE ENERGY + + + + +**  **TEST PROCEDURE NOPR FOR DIRECT HEATING EQUIPMENT AND POOL HEATERS** 

**+ + + + +**

**PUBLIC MEETING**

**+ + + + +**

**WEDNESDAY DECEMBER 4, 2013**  **+ + + + + The Public Meeting convened in**  **Room 8E-089, Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C.,**  **at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.** 

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### PRESENT: **DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator KEN BELDING, Empire Comfort Systems**  **RYAN CARROLL, Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association**  **ROSALYN COCHRANE, Natural Resources Canada RUTH ANN DAVIS, Williams Furnace Company**  **VICTOR FRANCO, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **BYRON HORAK, Intertek ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory JOHN O'HARE, Hayward Industries**  **FRANK STANONIK, Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute**  **DYLAN SULLIVAN, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **JOHN MICHAEL TALBOTT, P.E. VANCE WILLIS, Hayward Industries** 

**ALSO PRESENT: ARI ALTMAN, Office of General Counsel, DOE**  **ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting**  **JUSTIN ELSZASZ, Navigant Consulting WILLIAM HEALY, National Institute of**  **Standards and Technology**

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### TABLE OF CONTENTS **Page**
**Welcoming Remarks and Introductions Doug Brookman and**  **Ashley Armstrong................ 4**
**Regulatory History Ashley Armstrong................ 9**  **Rulemaking Overview Ashley Armstrong................ 10** 
**Description of Issues Addressed in this NOPR**  **William Healy.................. 10**
**Closing Remarks Doug Brookman................... 34** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:03 a.m.)**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 4 everyone. Welcome. This is the test**  **5 procedure and NOPR for direct heating 6 equipment and pool heaters. Today is**  **7 December 4, 2013 here in the Forrestal 8 Building. My name is Doug Brookman from**  **9 Public Solutions. Glad to see you all here 10 this morning.**  **11 We are going to start with 12 welcoming remarks from Ashley Armstrong.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, everyone. My 14 name is Ashley Armstrong at DOE. I oversee**  **15 the test procedures here coming out of the 16 Department.**  **17 I want to just welcome everyone. 18 Thanks for coming. As you can see, we have a**  **19 pretty short presentation, just to give you an 20 overview of the proposed rule for test**  **21 procedures. The important part of this is 22 that we welcome your feedback and any** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 5**  

### 1 questions you have. So, we encourage you to **2 participate as much as possible. 3 And other than that, I will turn**  **4 it over to Doug. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We**  **6 start with introductions, typically. You can 7 get used to turning these microphones both on**  **8 and off. If you are not using them, please 9 turn them off. And I will start here to my**  **10 immediate left. Your name and organizational 11 affiliation.**  **12 MR. WILLIS: Vance Willis, 13 Hayward Industries.**  **14 MR. BELDING: Is this on? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Now it is, yes.**  **16 MR. BELDING: Ken Belding, Empire 17 Comfort Systems.**  **18 MR. CARROLL: Ryan Carroll with 19 the Hearth, Patio and Barbeque Association.**  **20 MR. SULLIVAN: Dylan Sullivan 21 with the Natural Resources Defense Council.**  **22 MS. COCHRANE: Rosalyn Cochrane,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 6**  

### 1 Natural Resources Canada. **2 MR. HORAK: Byron Horak from 3 Intertek.**  **4 MR. ALTMAN: Ari Altman with 5 DOE's Office of the General Counsel.**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 7 DOE.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand. 9 Yes, you. Just say it.**  **10 MR. ELSZASZ: Justin Elszasz, 11 Navigant Consulting.**  **12 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 13 Navigant Consulting.**  **14 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 15 Berkeley National Laboratory.**  **16 MR. HEALY: Bill Healy, National 17 Institutes of Standards and Technology.**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: You are just in 19 time, Frank. Introduce yourself.**  **20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 21 AHRI.**  **22 MR. FRANCO: Victor Franco,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. 2 MR. TALBOTT: John Talbott,**  **3 consultant. 4 MR. O'HARE: John O'Hare with**  **5 Hayward Industries. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of**  **7 you for being here. As Ashley said, it is a 8 rather short presentation content packet this**  **9 morning. We are just going to go through the 10 packet page by page. And you will note in the**  **11 packet there are these comment boxes that 12 specifically call out the Department's**  **13 request that you speak to the issue in that 14 box.**  **15 I would ask for your 16 consideration. If you would, please speak**  **17 one at a time. Please say your name for the 18 record each time you speak. There will be a**  **19 complete transcript of this meeting available 20 to you on the website. Please keep the focus**  **21 here. Turn your cell phones on silent mode. 22 Limit the sidebar conversations. You have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1** 

### already gotten used to turning these **2** 

### microphones on and off. That's good. If you **3** 

### could be concise, share the air time. I will **4** 

### be queuing individuals by name as best I can. **5** 

### I wish to encourage follow-on comment **6** 

### frequently. It is useful for the Department
**7** 

### as they are considering the detailed comment **8** 

### that comes in this conversation, the back and **9** 

### forth between individuals sometimes is very **10** 

### helpful. **11** 

### So, I think that that is about all **12** 

### I need to say. Do we have individuals joining **13** 

### us via the web, Jack? Ten individuals joining **14** 

### us via the web. **15** 

### Welcome to all those joining via **16** 

### the web. The Department of Energy is trying **17** 

### very hard to make these meetings accessible. **18** 

### And if you would please keep your telephone on **19** 

### mute. And if you raise your hand and the **20** 

### software is working, which sometimes it does, **21** 

### typically it does, then we ought to be able to **22** 

### hear your comment and your question here in the

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1** 

### room, if you raise your hand and our webmaster **2** 

### over there can insert you in the conversation. **3** 

### So, let's proceed. Ashley **4** 

### Armstrong. **5** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, just to start **6** 

### off, as Doug mentioned, we have highlighted
**7** 

### throughout the presentation a couple specific **8** 

### requests for comment that we are seeking your **9** 

### opinions on. Obviously, we welcome comment **10** 

### throughout. So, feel free to chime in, if you **11** 

### would like to speak to something different. **12** 

### The only other thing I want to **13** 

### highlight on this slide is that the deadline **14** 

### for submitting written comments is January **15** 

### 7th, just after the holidays. **16** 

### So, I am going to do a couple brief **17** 

### -- a very brief overview of the history. So, **18** 

### as you know, this meeting is in regards to **19** 

### direct heating equipment and pool heaters. **20** 

### And this just talks about EPCA a little bit of **21** 

### our legal authority, which EPCA established **22** 

### the consumer product provisions and directs

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 DOE to revise the test procedures. The Energy 2 Independence and Security Act of 2007 requires**  **3 us to review them and incorporate the standby 4 and off mode provisions. We have dealt with**  **5 the standby and off mode provisions already, 6 the existing test procedures are found in**  **7 Appendix O for DHE and Appendix P for Pool 8 Heaters. And today, we are doing a revision**  **9 to the active mode for those procedures. 10 This is just the steps in the**  **11 rulemaking process. What happens is we have 12 issued a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. It**  **13 goes out for a 75-day comment period. As I 14 noted, that ends in early January. The next**  **15 step would be DOE would take all the comments 16 we receive, including those made today, into**  **17 consideration and that will inform our 18 decisions for the final rule, which we expect**  **19 to issue sometime early in 2014. 20 And I am going to pass it to Bill**  **21 to give some descriptions of our exact 22 proposals in the NOPR.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 MR. HEALY: Thank you, Ashley. 2 We are going to split this up. We are going**  **3 to first deal with direct heating equipment. 4 So we will go through all the proposed updates**  **5 for direct heating equipment and then we will 6 follow along with pool heaters.**  **7 So, the first topic that we are 8 going to discuss is direct heating equipment.**  **9 There is four key things that we want to 10 discuss that DOE is proposing to update in the**  **11 direct heating equipment test procedure. We 12 will discuss each one of these in a little bit**  **13 more detail. 14 First of all, we are going to add**  **15 provisions for testing vented home heating 16 equipment using condensing technologies.**  **17 There are a number of references that were 18 found that appeared to be outdated. So DOE is**  **19 proposing to update all of those industry 20 standards to more recent ones.**  **21 There is a proposed change for 22 floor furnaces to reduce the test burden by** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 allowing a default value for jacket loss in 2 lieu of testing. And then finally, there are**  **3 some clarifications and corrections that are 4 proposed that appeared to be in existence in**  **5 the current test procedure that DOE is 6 proposing to clarify.**  **7 So the first thing I wanted to 8 discuss are the provisions for condensing**  **9 technologies. DOE received quite a few 10 comments to the RFI that a method was going to**  **11 be needed that deals with DHE that utilizes 12 condensing technologies because right now it**  **13 is not present in the test procedure. 14 So, what DOE is proposing to do is**  **15 to use provisions similar to those that are 16 used in their furnace and boiler test**  **17 procedure. It would incorporate the method 18 basically that is in ASHRAE 103-2007, which is**  **19 the method of test for furnaces and boilers. 20 And these would be stand-alone amendments in**  **21 the DHE test procedure. 22 So, to summarize this, a separate** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1** 

### test would be conducted for those units that **2** 

### utilize condensing technology. The **3** 

### condensate would be collected and measured. **4** 

### For those units that may not be **5** 

### designed to collect it, the condensate, DOE **6** 

### would require that those units be designed to
**7** 

### actually have some way to collect it for the **8** 

### test method. **9** 

### Using that condensate, the latent **10** 

### heat loss term that is used in calculating the **11** 

### AFUE would be modified to incorporate the fact **12** 

### that there is condensate. So the latent heat **13** 

### term in the equation for AFUE or the efficiency **14** 

### would be modified to give some efficiency **15** 

### increase because of the use of condensate **16** 

### technology. And these provisions would apply **17** 

### to all types of DHE. **18** 

### Question? **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please say your **20** 

### name. **21** 

### MR. HORAK: Byron Horak from **22** 

### Intertek.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 We are questioning the need that 2 spells out a separate test for the collection**  **3 of condensate. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your microphone**  **5 on, Byron? 6 MR. HORAK: Excuse me?**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your microphone 8 on?**  **9 MR. HORAK: Yes, the green light 10 is on.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Sorry. 12 Go ahead.**  **13 MR. HORAK: On the cooling side of 14 the business, condensate is collected all the**  **15 time and it is collected during the efficiency 16 test, the performance test. And the guys back**  **17 in the lab said there is absolutely no reason 18 why condensate on these products couldn't be**  **19 collected at the exact same time that the 20 efficiency test is being run, rather than**  **21 having a separate test which extends testing 22 time for everyone.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 MR. HEALY: I'm not -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not**  **3 following either. 4 MR. HEALY: Yes.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Frank. 6 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik**  **7 with AHRI. 8 I guess I have got a similar**  **9 question. The 3.8.1 specifically says begin 10 a steady state condensate collection**  **11 immediately after the steady state testing. 12 But during the steady state testing, aren't**  **13 you developing some condensate that should be 14 collected?**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So your, I guess, 16 suggestion is that we collect the condensate**  **17 during the steady state AFUE test, rather than 18 separately.**  **19 MR. HORAK: Absolutely. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Concurrently, as 22 it were. Okay.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 MR. HORAK: Concurrent, yes. 2 That's all.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, excellent. 4 Frank Stanonik.**  **5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 6 AHRI. Just a follow-up question. Since the**  **7 initial proposal is this way, are you 8 perceiving there is some difference there?**  **9 MR. HEALY: We are trying to be 10 very consistent with the furnace and boilers**  **11 approach. So, that was really one of the 12 approaches that we ended up taking, just to be**  **13 very consistent with what is currently done on 14 furnaces and boilers.**  **15 MR. STANONIK: Oh, okay. Well 16 furnace and boiler test procedure is changing,**  **17 too. Right? Okay. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional**  **19 questions here? Ken. 20 MR. BELDING: Ken Belding of**  **21 Empire Comfort Systems. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1** 

### MR. BELDING: Ken Belding with **2** 

### Empire Comfort Systems. **3** 

### We have, for your consideration, **4** 

### some possible corrections on the equation for **5** 

### MS off in 4.3.3. We feel that it is possibly **6** 

### incorrect and that the 100 there should be a
**7** 

### CT*. Also in MF off, same Section, 4.3.3, we **8** 

### feel that the 100 there should also be a CT*. **9** 

### The next item is: DS is undefined **10** 

### for systems 9 through 12 but is included in the **11** 

### AFUE calculation in section 4.1.17. And this **12** 

### was a source of difference between the Empire **13** 

### and Intertek results in the past. **14** 

### We now assume that DS is zero. **15** 

### And this is found in AFUE calculation for **16** 

### vented home heating equipment without stack **17** 

### dampers and optional method 3.3. And we feel **18** 

### that Table 1 system number 10 DS should be **19** 

### zero. **20** 

### Next item is for a power burner **21** 

### direct vent condensing heater. A DF, as in **22** 

### Frank, value is used unless the optional

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 tracer gas test is conducted. Like some gas 2 furnaces and boilers, Empire's new condensing**  **3 zone heater has no measurable off-cycle flow. 4 This made conducting a tracer gas test**  **5 difficult. So, the direct vent heaters 6 should have the same option as described in**  **7 ASHRAE 103 Section 9.10 for condensing 8 furnaces and boilers. For units with no**  **9 off-period flue losses, a DF value of 0.05 can 10 be used, rather than running the tracer gas**  **11 test. 12 The language from ASHRAE 103**  **13 Section 9.10 needs to be included in the 14 revised Appendix O.**  **15 Then lastly on condensing is we 16 have a question on multiple control options**  **17 ship from the manufacturer, specifically on 18 condensing units, and should the efficiency be**  **19 tested in which mode is the question. 20 Again, specifically for a unit**  **21 that has a manual mode and a thermostat step 22 modulating mode ship from the manufacturer on** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 the same unit. We have a unit we are shipping 2 that has both modes and we need clarification**  **3 on what to test. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.**  **5 MR. BELDING: Thank you. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you**  **7 for those specific comments. Since you have 8 got them all written out there, if you could**  **9 just type them up and send them in. 10 MR. BELDING: Yes, we will do**  **11 that. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. To the**  **13 Department, that would be helpful. 14 Can you answer his question now or**  **15 did you need to think about it for a while? 16 MR. HEALY: No.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we 18 are going to answer it now.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for 20 that. I am going to return to Bill.**  **21 MR. HEALY: The next topic we want 22 to discuss and there will be more time for** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1** 

### question on DHE after a couple of slides here, **2** 

### DOE is proposing to update the referenced **3** 

### industry test standards. There are a number **4** 

### of industry standards that are referenced that **5** 

### are no longer current. So, DOE is proposing **6** 

### to adopt six current industry standards to in
**7** 

### some cases they are going to update the exact **8** 

### same standard with a more recent version. In **9** 

### one case there were separate references that **10** 

### have been brought together under a single **11** 

### umbrella. And it covers those other three **12** 

### standards. **13** 

### And then the incorporation of **14** 

### Standard 103 is proposed in lieu of three older **15** 

### standards. **16** 

### DOE did check these and believes **17** 

### that this is -- you know there is no **18** 

### inconsistencies and no changes in doing so. **19** 

### Finally, the last two -- **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. **21** 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, **22** 

### AHRI.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1** 

### I think in a number of cases we **2** 

### would prefer that you, for gas-fired equipment **3** 

### use, still reference gas-fired safety **4** 

### standards. And I think it may be just a **5** 

### question of looking at different sections of **6** 

### those standards as opposed to where -- I would **7** 

### say one might normally find how to set up the **8** 

### unit for tests in the case of floor furnaces **9** 

### and room heaters. It may be at different **10** 

### sections such as the wall, floor, and in the **11** 

### case of room heaters, ceiling temperature test **12** 

### or something. **13** 

### But we will submit some comments **14** 

### to either indicate where you could reference **15** 

### the current standard to specify a setup as **16** 

### necessary for room heaters and floor furnaces **17** 

### or perhaps just add the text. It just seems **18** 

### a little -- and I realize it is there already **19** 

### but it just seems odd to reference a oil-fired **20** 

### standard for how to set up a gas-fired unit for **21** 

### test. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Ken?

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 MR. BELDING: Ken Belding. To 2 just piggyback Frank a little bit here, one of**  **3 our comments was that specifically on room 4 heaters, floor furnaces, there is really no**  **5 information in the Z2186 2008 Standard about 6 specifically where to take that exhaust --**  **7 flue exhaust temperature. It talks about 8 where to place thermocouples on that to**  **9 physically take the temperature but not how 10 far away from the exit. I suppose you might**  **11 know that we use the minimum wall thickness as 12 defined, which is about five inches, round**  **13 numbers. But obviously, the farther you get 14 away from that exit, the greater the**  **15 efficiency will be represented. So, there is 16 no real clarification for that. That is kind**  **17 of what we were looking for on that test. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **19 MR. BELDING: Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments**  **21 here? Byron. 22 MR. HORAK: Byron from Intertek.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1** 

### Referencing the safety standards **2** 

### for the installation of these products adds an **3** 

### extra burden which is unnecessary for **4** 

### performance testing. The safety standards **5** 

### require you to set up various walls and floors **6** 

### and paint it all flat black and mount these
**7** 

### products in these walls and floors. And that **8** 

### is very much needed for safety testing but for **9** 

### performance testing, it has absolutely no **10** 

### effect and is just an added extra burden to **11** 

### anyone testing these products and really isn't **12** 

### required for performance testing. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I am going **14** 

### to turn that around to the manufacturers to see **15** 

### what they think about removing or the option **16** 

### of removing the false floors and the walls. **17** 

### I mean that is how they are installed. **18** 

### So, are you onboard with -- for **19** 

### performance testing, would your suggestion be **20** 

### to remove all that as a requirement for their **21** 

### as-tested setup? **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1** 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik **2** 

### with AHRI. **3** 

### I think, Ashley, that is why I said **4** 

### one of our options, and we need to discuss it, **5** 

### obviously, internally more but we also are **6** 

### considering just actually recommending some
**7** 

### actual text to address, as I say, the setup as **8** 

### needed. As Byron was saying, the full **9** 

### structure for a wall, floor, and ceiling test **10** 

### really isn't needed for an efficiency test **11** 

### procedure. But again, flipping it around, **12** 

### you take a floor furnace, the five we test, **13** 

### whatever, but you take it out of the box, you **14** 

### have got to set it up somehow and we agree. **15** 

### And so I think what we are planning to look at **16** 

### is okay, what is in those standards today and **17** 

### again, if needed, we will just give you some **18** 

### text to say -- **19** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And what **20** 

### is in the standards today is to build the false **21** 

### walls, floors, et cetera, et cetera. **22** 

### MR. STANONIK: Right.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that is what
**2** 

### should be done now. That is not to say that **3** 

### should be propagated if everyone feels that it
**4** 

### doesn't impact the measures of efficiency and
**5** 

### it can be changed or there is a better way to **6** 

### do it to reduce burden but that is what is there
**7** 

### now. **8** 

### MR. STANONIK: Right. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ken, do you have a **10** 

### comment on this?
**11** 

### MR. BELDING: Ken Belding.
**12** 

### I think that I will wait with **13** 

### Frank. I mean I think we know it is not a big
**14** 

### controversial topic. We have to set up the **15** 

### walls anyway to do the safety testing, **16** 

### efficiency testing. We do it at basically the
**17** 

### same time. **18** 

### But I probably need to consult **19** 

### with Frank about what the industry probably **20** 

### wants to do as a whole. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Thank **22** 

### you. Okay.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 MR. HEALY: So the next topic is 2 related to jacket loss. For the furnaces and**  **3 boilers test procedure there is an option to, 4 instead of doing a jacket loss test procedure**  **5 to assign a default value of one percent. DOE 6 is proposing in this NOPR to leave that as an**  **7 option for direct heating for floor furnaces. 8 So, instead of doing the testing for jacket**  **9 loss, it can be assigned a value of one 10 percent.**  **11 And finally, clarifications and 12 corrections. There were a number of places**  **13 that were identified in the existing test 14 procedure that were, for example, missing**  **15 equations. So the first bullet point there, 16 the Section 4.2.4, there was a missing**  **17 equation. So, DOE is proposing to include an 18 equation there for that.**  **19 The tracer gas procedures in 20 Section 3.3 are modified to clarify how it is**  **21 supposed to be employed for units with thermal 22 stack damper.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1** 

### And there were some typographical **2** 

### errors that were identified in Section 4.3.6 **3** 

### that are proposed to be corrected as well. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik. **5** 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, **6** 

### AHRI. **7** 

### Speaking of typographical errors, **8** 

### and maybe it has already -- I am sure it has **9** 

### been identified. But in the Federal Register **10** 

### notice, that point 3 is floating out there on **11** 

### those equations for L . **C,SS 12**  

### MR. HEALY: It should be in the **13** 

### denominator. **14** 

### MR. STANONIK: Yes. **15** 

### MR. HEALY: Okay. **16** 

### MR. STANONIK: Well, no. It is **17** 

### 1053.3 but the point three isn't up like at the **18** 

### end of the calculation. **19** 

### MR. HEALY: Okay. **20** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I have it. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional **22** 

### comments here?

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1** 

### Here you see four issue boxes and **2** 

### some of which -- **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: We have gone **4** 

### through most of them. **5** 

### MR. BOOKMAN: -- may have been **6** 

### addressed. Maybe just take a peek there.
**7** 

### Look at them and see if there is any -- if they **8** 

### cause you to want to make any additional **9** 

### comments at this time. **10** 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, **11** 

### AHRI. **12** 

### One of the -- just maybe a **13** 

### confirmation, so the proposed testing for **14** 

### condensing vented heater, that test is just **15** 

### running full fire? **16** 

### MR. HEALY: No. It is in some of **17** 

### the detail. So, can John speak to that one? **18** 

### MR. TALBOTT: John Talbott. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: John, use the **20** 

### microphone, please. **21** 

### MR. TALBOTT: Okay. When it gets **22** 

### to high fire and low fire and modulating

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1** 

### control, you have to do the condensate **2** 

### collection at both rates, just like it is in **3** 

### 103. **4** 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. **5** 

### So, if that is the case, if you look at the **6** 

### equation under 4.1.6.2 for it looks like L **C,SS 7**  

### (L sub css), the very last term in the **8** 

### numerator is T minus 45, where 45, I believe **F,SS 9**  

### is the design temperature, outdoor **10** 

### temperature. **11** 

### MR. TALBOTT: Design temperature, **12** 

### that is correct. **13** 

### MR. STANONIK: Yes, 45 is the **14** 

### average outdoor temperature. **15** 

### MR. TALBOTT: Yes. **16** 

### MR. STANONIK: But in the case if **17** 

### this was a furnace boiler test procedure and **18** 

### you had a modulating equipment, doesn't that **19** 

### number reflect that your outdoor temperature **20** 

### at full fire might be different than your **21** 

### outdoor temperature at a lower firing rate? **22** 

### MR. TALBOTT: Right.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1** 

### MR. STANONIK: So, it is a **2** 

### variable, right? **3** 

### MR. TALBOTT: Right, but in the **4** 

### furnace test procedure in 103, it is **5** 

### separately, the modulating controls in there **6** 

### are separately conducted condensate **7** 

### collection procedures. And then in these **8** 

### procedures, they get weighted by the R factor **9** 

### of the percent of heating load that is **10** 

### addressed in the high mode and percent **11** 

### addressed in the low load. And you average **12** 

### them together and that will be your average **13** 

### condensate collection. **14** 

### So, I mean there is probably some **15** 

### small affect there that could be addressed but **16** 

### it wasn't addressed in 103 as an effect. But **17** 

### it is just following 103 as best it can, until **18** 

### there is some exception that needs to be made. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional **20** 

### comments on items 1 through 4? And let me **21** 

### remind those of you on the web, if you wish to **22** 

### make comments, we have ought to be able to hear

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 you in the room. 2 Okay.**  **3 MR. HEALY: So, this concludes 4 the discussion on direct heating equipment.**  **5 Next, we will talk about the 6 summary of proposed updates for pool heaters.**  **7 There are two key ones. The first one is 8 proposed expansion to cover electric pool**  **9 heaters. Currently, they are not covered in 10 the test procedure. And this would include**  **11 both electric heat pump pool heaters and 12 electric resistance heaters.**  **13 And then we just were, DOE is 14 proposing to clarify that the procedures are**  **15 applicable to oil-fired pool heaters. There 16 is no changes on that. But just to clarify**  **17 that they are covered. 18 So first of all with electric pool**  **19 heaters, there is a proposal, as I mentioned, 20 to expand that test procedure to cover these**  **21 electric pool heaters. DOE is proposing to 22 adopt amendments from ASHRAE Standard 1160,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 "Performance Rating of Heat Pump Pool Heaters" 2 as well as -- I'm sorry AHRI 1160, as well as**  **3 ASHRAE Standard 146, "Method of Testing and 4 Rating Pool Heaters."**  **5 The proposed amendments for 6 electric resistance type of pool heaters would**  **7 be specifically from ASHRAE Standard 146. 8 There would be additional calculations for**  **9 integrated thermal efficiency expressed in 10 terms of percent for all pool heaters. And**  **11 this is consistent with the current test 12 procedure that includes standby power.**  **13 And then there is a method to 14 determine the COP for heat pump pool heaters**  **15 and then convert that to a thermal efficiency 16 as well.**  **17 So, we would seek comment from you 18 whether the proposal for these electric units**  **19 is appropriate and sufficient. And then any 20 impact on small businesses.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Any comments here? 22 No comments here. Okay.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 Let me say hello. You have just 2 made it into the room. We are going through**  **3 the content in this packet very rapidly here. 4 And I want to specifically invite you to ask**  **5 questions, make comments, get caught up in any 6 way that is going to make you comfortable,**  **7 since you are one of the manufacturers. So, 8 just weigh in however suits you best.**  **9 Okay, we are moving on. We are 10 done, in fact.**  **11 Frank Stanonik. 12 MR. STANONIK: I notice that you**  **13 have a -- Frank Stanonik, AHRI -- I notice you 14 have a section reserved for hybrid pool**  **15 heaters. What are you envisioning as a hybrid 16 pool heater?**  **17 MR. HEALY: We are not aware of 18 any on the market right now but something like**  **19 a heat pump pool heater with a gas burner. 20 MR. STANONIK: Okay.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to -- go 22 ahead Frank.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1** 

### MR. STANONIK: Just in certain **2** 

### other product classes, hybrid is being used to **3** 

### describe a heat pump. Okay, maybe it needs a **4** 

### different name. **5** 

### MR. HEALY: Okay. **6** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Feel free to **7** 

### suggest one. **8** 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So I think we are **10** 

### now finished with the content. **11** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: We are. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And I invite **13** 

### anybody that wishes to make closing remarks. **14** 

### Any additional issues that, in particular **15** 

### since you joined us, if there is anything you **16** 

### wish to say to add to the record at this point. **17** 

### Additional issues that haven't been covered **18** 

### sufficiently, closing remarks? Frank. **19** 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, **20** 

### AHRI. **21** 

### Really more follow-on questions **22** 

### and two separate ones. So, if the test

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 procedure is planned to be finalized in early 2 2014, there is certainly a strong suggestion**  **3 that as far as heat pump pool heaters then the 4 next step would be establishment of efficiency**  **5 requirements for heat pump pool heaters. So, 6 the question is does DOE have a schedule -- a**  **7 rulemaking on the schedule for that? 8 And then the second question,**  **9 different subject, is it is also very clear in 10 this NOPR that DOE is going to develop test**  **11 procedures for vented, I will call them fire 12 place heaters in a separate rulemaking. What**  **13 is the schedule for that rulemaking? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Loaded questions, 16 Frank, so early in the morning.**  **17 I will do the easier one first. 18 Pool heaters. So, I think at this point DOE**  **19 is required to review its standards rules 20 every so many years. So that is six years.**  **21 Correct? So, we finished the previous rule in 22 2010. So, we would have to review it in that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 time frame. At that time, during that review, 2 we would investigate whether efficiency**  **3 standards meet the criteria or we would make 4 a decision at that point about whether we**  **5 should do efficiency standards for heat pump 6 pool heaters.**  **7 Just because there is a test 8 procedure, doesn't mean we have to. So, that**  **9 is the answer for that one. 10 I don't know the answer to the**  **11 other one, as far as vented home heating 12 equipment and the schedule for a separate**  **13 rule. But I don't have a definitive time 14 table for that one, other than it will be**  **15 separate and there will be separate notices on 16 that one, coming for it.**  **17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 18 AHRI.**  **19 This is certainly, at the moment, 20 a theoretical question. But if the comments**  **21 to this NOPR did include some suggestions on 22 how to test a fireplace heater, I am assuming** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 DOE would be receptive to that? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Byron. 4 MR. HORAK: Byron Horak,**  **5 Intertek. 6 Were we going to discuss oil-fired**  **7 pool heaters under this meeting or is that a 8 separate topic?**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is under this 10 one. You know, preliminarily, we made a**  **11 determination the existing test procedures 12 for gas-fired is applicable to oil-fired as**  **13 written and we just clarified that. 14 To the extent that you have**  **15 comments about that, we welcome them. 16 MR. HORAK: Okay, good.**  **17 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 18 comments, as we move towards closure here?**  **19 Okay, well, I see nothing 20 additional. I thank you all for coming this**  **21 morning. Very productive. Very crisp 22 little meeting. Back to Ashley for review of** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1** 

### the send-in materials. **2** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I just want to **3** 

### thank everyone for coming. I know this was a **4** 

### short meeting. As you go through the proposed **5** 

### rule, if you have any more questions, **6** 

### obviously, we welcome your comments,
**7** 

### clarifications, edits. You know, at any **8** 

### point in time, this is just a quick summary **9** 

### about how to submit comments and when the close **10** 

### of the comment period is, which is January 7th, **11** 

### just to remind you once again. **12** 

### And thank you for participating. **13** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Safe **14** 

### travels. **15** 

### (Whereupon, at 9:36 a.m., the **16** 

### foregoing meeting was concluded.) **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 39**  A a.m 1:12 4:2 38:15 able 8:21 30:22 absolutely 14:17 15:19 23:9 37:2 accessible 8:17 Act 10:2 active 10:9 actual 24:7 Adam 2:13 6:12 add 11:14 21:17

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5:22 collect 13:5,7 15:16 collected 13:3 14:14,15,19 15:14 collection 14:2 15:10 29:2 30:7 30:13 comes 8:8 Comfort2:2 5:17

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15:21 condensate 13:3,5 13:9,12,15 14:3 14:14,18 15:10,13 15:16 29:1 30:6 30:13 condensing 11:16 12:8,12 13:2 17:21 18:2,7,15 18:18 28:14 Conditioning 2:8 conducted 13:1 18:1 30:6 conducting 18:4 confirmation 28:13 consideration7:16 10:17 17:3 considering 8:7

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32:11 consult25:18 consultant7:3

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 40**  Consulting 2:13,13

6:11,13 consumer9:22 content7:8 33:3

34:10 CONTENTS 3:1 control 18:16 29:1 controls 30:5 controversial 25:14 convened 1:11 conversation 8:8

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29:20 furnace 2:4 12:16 16:10,16 24:12 29:17 30:4 furnaces 11:22 12:19 16:14 18:2 18:8 21:8,16 22:4 26:2,7 G

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 41** 
gas 18:1,1,4,10

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 42**  6:15,16 7:1 Natural 2:4,9 5:21

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29:3 30:4,16,17 103-2007 12:18 1053.3 27:17 1160 31:22 32:2 12 17:10 146 32:3,7 2 2007 10:2 2008 22:5 2010 35:22 2013 1:9 4:7 2014 10:19 35:2 3 3 27:10 3.3 17:17 26:20 3.8.1 15:9 34 3:11 4 4 1:9 3:4 4:7 30:20 4.1.17 17:11 4.1.6.2 29:6 4.2.4 26:16 4.3.3 17:5,7 4.3.6 27:2 45 29:8,8,13 5 6 7 75-day 10:13 7th 9:15 38:10 8 8E-089 1:11 9 9 3:6 17:10 9.10 18:7,13 9:00 1:12 9:03 4:2 9:36 38:15NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 45

Test Procedures for Direct Heating Equipment and Pool Heaters

US DOE

12-04-13

Washington, DC