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BEFORE THE 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

Docket No. 

CP09WP008 

Civil Penalty Action 

DMS No. 

FAA-2009-0103 

In the Matter of: 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

vs.. 

GREAT LAKES 

AVIATION, INC., 

Respondent. 

Courtroom C502 

Byron G. Rogers US Courthouse 

1929 Stout Street 

Denver, Colorado 

Wednesday, 

March 31, 2010 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: HON. RICHARD GOODWIN 

Administrative Law Judge »i2 

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(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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APPEARANCES: 

On behalf of the Complainant: 

SCOTT R. MORRIS, ESQ. 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

1601 Lind Avenue, Southwest 

Renton, Washington 98057 

425-227-1417 

On behalf of the Respondent: 

TIMOTHY R. THORNTON, ESQ. 

MATTHEW R. BRODIN, ESQ. 

Briggs and Morgan 

2200 IDS Center 

80 South 8th Street 

Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402 

612-977-8400 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE,, N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
396 

WITNESSES 

Michael Hulett 

EXHIBITS 

INDE X 

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

401 454 478 

483 

MARK RECD 

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Complainant's 

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Respondent's 

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464 

427 427 

487 487 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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PROCEEDING S 

(9:00 a.m.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Still in cross? 

MR. THORNTON: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you want to 

return to the witness stand? Remind you that 

you're still under oath. 

MR. THORNTON: Just for the 

Court's purposes, I'd like to introduce Mr. 

Doug Voss, the Chairman of the Board of Great 

Lakes Aviation; Chuck Howell, the President; 

Tory Meisel, Director of Operations; and 

Heather Halverson, Safety Director. I failed 

to point that out yesterday. 

MR. MORRIS: Sir, before we begin, 

could we do some housekeeping? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, sure. 

MR. MORRIS: Just a couple things. 

I believe the record should reflect that I 

have redacted the personal information that 

was referenced yesterday in the courtroom in 

C-20. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Okay. 

MR. MORRIS: I do not believe that 

there are others, but if there are, obviously, 

it's not my intent to provide p'^rsonal 

information. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No. I understand, 

and I appreciate that. And what I'll do, 

gentlemen, if in my review I find something, 

I'll just -- I won't do it formally; I'll just 

send you an e-mail and say. Page such-and-such 

exhibits we've redacted. 

MR. MORRIS: Okay. 

MR. THORNTON: And I looked too, 

Judge. I didn't see any. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. THORNTON: The only possible 

thing would be the employee numbers, but other 

than --

JUDGE GOODWIN: And my 

understanding with employee numbers is that 

doesn't get me anything. 

MR. THORNTON: No. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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MR. MORRIS: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Without the 

database, I've got nothing. 

MR. THORNTON: Unless you're in 

the Great Lakes Aviation database --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. THORNTON: it doesn't mean 

anything 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. MORRIS: Well, and, in fact, I 

did not redact the employee number in that 

case, because it does relate to --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Other exhibits. 

MR. MORRIS: -- logbook signoffs. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. MORRIS: The other thing. Your 

Honor, is, I mean, absent objection or 

supplementation of the training records, I 

would reoffer C-20 for identification as C-20. 

We had held off on the admissibility of that 

pending Mr. Thornton's going -- giving Great 

Lakes the opportunity to go back and check 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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their training records. 

MR. THORNTON: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let me get 

that" open. Now, the one I'm concerned about 

redactions on is the Court's copy, because 

that's the one that will ultimately go down to 

docketing. I'm probably going to keep this 

copy too. That's not going to go any farther 

than my office, so if they break into my 

office and steal that, that will the least of 

my problems. 

And, Mr. Morris, I told Mr. 

Thornton the two switches are up here on the 

side of the bench. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I remind you 

that you're still under oath, and because 

we're in a new day, would you just repeat your 

name for the record, please. 

THE WITNESS: My name is Michael 

Hulett, 

M-I-C-H-A-E-L H-U-L-E-T-T. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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MR. THORNTON: May I --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. That's the 

copy. I don't know which one you need. 

MR. THORNTON: Which one do you 

want? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Doesn't make any 

difference to me. 

MR. THORNTON: All right. 

Whereupon, 

MICHAEL HULETT 

having been previously duly sworn, was 

recalled as a witness herein and was examined 

and testified further as follows: 

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed) 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Good morning, Mr. Hulett. How are 

you? 

A Fine. How are you? 

Q Good. I just wanted to go over a 

couple of things that we talked about 

yesterday just to make sure it's clear. We 

were talking about R-6, the pigtail squat 

(202) 234-4433 

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switch, 

A Yes 

Q In very rough drawing over here on 

the board, this being R-6 -- this is the squat 

switch; up here is the cannon plug -- what the 

mechanic will do is cut the wires and then 

attach the wires, matching the numbers on the 

new-part side, but with the numbers of the 

wires that are already attached to the cannon 

plug. 

A Okay. 

Q Is that how the process -- you 

understand the process works? 

A Yes 

Q Now, you testified that the only 

cannon plugs that -- or only squat switches 

you've ever replaced were more in the format 

of Respondent's 7. Is that correct? 

A 

Q 

That's correc t 

Do you know where Respondent's 7 

is made? 

A 

(202) 234-4433 

No, I do not. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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Q Which manufacturer supplies these 

in this form? 

A The airline manufacturers, 

typically. 

Q Right. So Great Lakes does this 

itself in its shop. 

A Currently they are. Yes. 

Q Okay. So where did you ever get 

one like this if this is made specifically in 

Great Lakes's shop? 

A I've not performed maintenance on 

Great Lakes aircraft. 

Q No. But when you did, you weren't 

working for Great Lakes. Where did you get a 

squat switch like this, as opposed to the one 

the manufacturer sells like this? 

A The assembly of that is not 

proprietary to Great Lakes, to my 

understanding. 

Q Well, where was the one you used 

assembled? 

A 

(202) 234-4433 

By Continental Express. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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Q You sure about that? 

A (No response.) 

Q Are you sure about that, sir? 

A It's been a long time, but I'm 

saying that they would have done that. 

Q It's been a long time since you've 

had any experience with squat switches. Isn't 

that correct, sir? 

A That's true 

Q And just to go over the diagram I 

did yesterday, the very, very rough circuit, 

this down here at the bottom being the squat 

switch --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, you 

just -- to make the record clear, you've got -

- down at the bottom of the diagram, you've 

got an SS. I would also make a comment, 

gentlemen. I've got a digital camera. If 

necessary, I can take a picture of that, 

e-mail it to you, and then we can make that a 

part of the record. 

MR. MORRIS: That's fine, sir. 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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MR. THORNTON: Just want to make 

sure that --

JUDGE GOODWIN: We could also get 

Mr. Thornton in the picture, if we wanted. 

MR. MORRIS: One's more than 

enough, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay. Well, you 

want equal time? 

MR. MORRIS: No, sir. (Laughing.) 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q So I've got a very rough drawing 

here on the board, which, for the record, that 

I'm looking at. Right, Mr. Hulett? 

A Yes. That's a rough diagram. 

Q And down here I got, SS That 

would be the safety switch or the squat 

switch? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I want to make 

sure both of you gentlemen understand, but if 

you say anything you've got to go to the mike. 

MR. THORNTON: Okay. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Q All right. And this is the wire 

number 7. It goes up to the printed circuit 

board? 

A Can I refer to an actual aircraft 

drawing schematic? 

Q Sure. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: When you look at a 

page, would you just, for the record, state 

what exhibit and what page you're looking at, 

so that --

will 

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, I 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Morris, while 

he's doing that, refresh my recollection. It 

was Exhibit 2 0 that you just moved? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And --

MR. THORNTON: No objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

(The document referred to, having 

been previously marked for 

identification as Complainant's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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Exhibit 20, was received into 

evidence.) 

THE WITNESS: I'm trying to find 

the drawing that shows both the squat switch 

and the solenoid assembly. (Perusing 

documents.) Okay. I follow you. 

MR. THORNTON: All right. 

THE WITNESS: I'm on, oh — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That tab should 

give you the --

THE WITNESS: I am on the tenth 

page of Exhibit C-10, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so we're --

at the top of the page it says, "Governor and 

ground idle stop-propeller," at the top? 

THE WITNESS: That's correct. Your 

Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And at the bottom 

there is handwritten words, says, "Power 

through R/H squat switch"? 

THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It's 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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1 paginated 10 of 53, gentlemen. 

2 BY MR. THORNTON: 

3 Q And just so we have a real basic -

4 1" - and I understand this isn't close to 

5 accurate, but a basic understanding of the 

6 circuit, the switch triggers a current that 

7 goes up to the printed circuit board that goes 

8 to the solenoid and activates the solenoid, 

9 the low-pitch solenoid. And the printed 

10 circuit board either connects with switches to 

11 9, which is the ground mode that completes the 

12 circuit, completes the continuity, or goes to 

13 8, which doesn't complete the continuity. And 

14 that's the air mode, and the solenoid is off 

15 when the circuit isn't complete. Is that 

16 correct, sir? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 Q And it's your belief that there's 

19 a two-second delay some place between the 

20 printed circuit board and the solenoid switch 

21 for the completion of this circuit and the 

22 activation of the solenoid switch, the low-

(202) 234-4433 

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pitch solenoid. Is that right? 

A That's correct. I believe I've 

read that somewhere too. 

Q So this is where you believe the 

two seconds is. Right? 

A I'd prefer to correct the drawing 

somewhat to show actual -- just where the 

power source begins and where the ground 

terminates. 

Q Why don't you do that. 

MR. THORNTON: Is that all right. 

Your Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, please. Do 

we only have the green and the white markers? 

MR. THORNTON: We have blue, we 

have black, and we have red. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. MORRIS: None are permanent. 

Right? 

MR. THORNTON: None are permanent. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I told you I 

did that teaching a class one day. Took me an 

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hour to get the permanent marker off the 

board. 

MR. THORNTON: Brovine's career 

depended on him finding me this one. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now I'm going to 

ask you, if you use the red -- no. Rather 

than erase, if you'll just use the red --

THE WITNESS: I just want to show 

this is -- here's our power source begins 

here. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Okay. 

A So per the theory of electricity, 

we'll start a power circuit --

THE REPORTER: Excuse me. We're 

not getting this. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Would you 

grab the mike and take it over? 

MR. THORNTON: Here. I'll hold it 

for him. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to use 

your mike? 

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MR. THORNTON: Go ahead, 

THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm just 

trying to assist myself and everyone here for 

the sake of power searching for a ground 

through the system. It helps me clarify it in 

my mind as much as anything. So that would be 

power in through wire 7 at the squat switch. 

And that's what makes contacts 9 or 8. And 

then we're searching for a ground after the 

electricity flows through the -- that's kind 

of a typical ground symbol. 

MR. THORNTON: Right. 

THE WITNESS: So we're on the same 

page, 

speak up. 

MR. MORRIS: Mike, you have to 

THE WITNESS: We're on the same 

page then for the purposes of that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So just for 

the record, we have a -- the witness has, in 

the upper left-hand corner of the diagram, 

drawn a red line with a circle with a plus in 

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it, which you're indicating is that would be 

the power source. Is that correct? 

THE WITNESS: Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And then to the 

right at approximately the same place, you've 

got -- is that G-0 or G-D or is that circle 

with a --

THE WITNESS: Just a grounding 

symbol. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But it's a 

circle with a minus in it, which you mean that 

would be a ground switch. Ground underlined 

as we defined yesterday, electrical ground. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q And when the circuit is completed 

on wire number 9, it's in the ground in quotes 

mode. And when the circuit is open, it's 

connected to wire number 8 in the air mode. 

Right? 

Correct 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q And if the system is not working. 

it fails to 8, or in this case, according to 

you, 6. Right? 

A As it was mis-wired to number 6, 

yes . 

Q Right. In either case, if the 

connection is to 8 or 6, the circuit is not 

complete and the solenoid, low-pitch solenoid, 

does not activate. 

A That's correct 

Q And based upon your experience 

with the activation of the low-pitch function 

of the aircraft, there's no way an experienced 

pilot would not realize, either by testing or 

by landing or by taxiing, that he was not in 

ground-idle mode. 

A That's correct. The pilot would 

know if it was in ground. 

Q Now, take a look at C-4, sir. 

A Okay. 

Q On page -341. 

A Okay. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Q That's where the writeup of the 

landing gear horn took place and the first 

repair was done on the 28th. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q And there's an indication that the 

repair was done by Sprague, and the required 

inspection item was done by Smith. 

A That's correct. 

Q And. then log page -342 shows the 

flight operations the next day? 

A That's correct 

Q -343 is the flight operations the 

day after that, on the 1st of March? 

A That's correct. 

Q We have leap year apparently. And 

then on the -344 is the flight operations on 

the 2nd? 

A That's correct 

Q And on -345 are the flight 

operations on the 3rd. 

A That's correct. 

Q And coming into Denver, one of the 

(202) 234-4433 

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pilots wrote up the stuck-in-low-pitch 

situation 

A That's correct 

"Q And by looking at the lines from 

the day before, it looks like that same pilot 

took that flight out that night from Denver to 

Pierre and from Pierre to Huron. Is that 

correct? 

A 

Q 

That's correct. 

And then he -- the next morning he 

went from Huron back to Pierre. I'm on the 

3rd now, on -34 5 

A 

Q 

A 

That's correct 

And then Pierre to Denver 

That's correct 

Q So this pilot operated this 

aircraft three legs before he encountered the 

problem. It was on the fourth leg of his trip 

that he encountered that problem. 

MR. MORRIS: Well, objection, Your 

Honor. There's a difference between 

encountering a problem and recording a 

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problem. 

MR. THORNTON: All right. I'll 

rephrase the question. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q That he recorded the problem. 

A That's correct. 

Q All right. Now, can you explain 

to me why a pilot would ignore a discrepancy 

on three legs of a flight and then finally 

record it on the fourth leg? 

A Possibly the capabilities to 

repair the aircraft more efficiently in 

Denver? 

Well, he started out in Denver. 

A Maybe he didn't recognize the 

problem in Denver, or the redundancy of the 

system allowed him to continue to operate the 

airplane. 

Q How many times did this airplane, 

on the 27 flights that it was engaged in, come 

back through Denver? 

A I haven't tallie d thos e up righ t 

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2 Q How many operations does Great 

3 Lakes conduct every day? 

4 A I believe they have over 200 

5 flights in and out Denver every day. 

6 Q And the vast majority of those 

7 _ flights originate or terminate where? 

8 A Typically they terminate at the 

9 out-stations, spend the overnight, and arrive 

10 in Denver early the next day. 

11 Q So well over half of the flights 

12 that Great Lakes conducts originate or 

13 terminate in Denver. Isn't that correct, sir? 

14 A That could be correct. 

15 Q All right. And if you're looking 

16 at statistics, where would you expect the 

17 greatest number of writeups to be? 

18 A In Denver. 

19 Q All right. That's because that's 

2 0 where the airplanes are most of the time. 

21 Isn't that correct? 

22 A That's true. 

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Q And frequently discrepancies get 

written up outside of Denver. Isn't that 

right, sir? 

A That's true. 

Q Now, if we go to the next day, the 

3rd -- excuse me, it's a continuation, -346, 

now there's a lot going on here. Isn't that 

correct? 

A That's correct 

Q Mr. Smith is trying to figure out 

the problem, and he's baffled by it, isn't he? 

A I have no evidence to know who 

actually documented the discrepancies. I just 

know that it was a maintenance individual. 

Q A maintenance individual 

documented, because they only sign off when 

they fix it. Right? 

A That's correct. 

Q But you sat in on Mr. Smith's 

deposition, didn't you? 

A I did . 

Q And you know tha t he was th e one 

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who did all these things 

A And I believe he did document 

these. Yes 

Q Yes. And you said that there was 

no indication that any wires were cut. What 

does item 7 and item 9 relate to, sir? 

A Item number 7, the" discrepancy 

states, "One enviro splice protective covering 

approximately one foot from right squat switch 

cannon plug not shrunk over splice." 

0 And what does number 9 relate to? 

A Number 9 informs me that, "Enviro 

splice under right turtle shell of wire K11A22 

protective covering not shrunk over splice." 

Q And why did those environmental 

splices -- why were they made, and why was the 

shrink-over not put back on? 

A I don't know when the enviro 

splices were made. I just know that the 

covering wasn't shrunk over them. 

Q 

deposition. 

You were a t Mr, Smith's 

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A Yes 

MR. THORNTON: May I approach. 

Your Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Respondent's Exhibit 1 is a 

turnover sheet and the same maintenance pages 

we've been talking about for the last day or 

so. Correct? 

A 

turnover sheets 

Correct. I recognize the 

and --

Q All right. And then we've got 

some redundancies in the record here, but what 

I really want to focus on is the turnover 

sheet. 

A Okay. 

Q You recall that at the informal 

hearing, Mr. Smith talked about the turnover 

sheet, didn't he? 

A Yes, he did. 

Q And Mr. Morris asked us to produce 

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it. Do you recall that? 

A I do. 

Q And we sent it in, didn't we? 

A You did. 

Q Now, Mr. Smith states that the 

first thing that he did is he fixed the wiring 

at the printed circuit board. Right? 

A That's correct. 

Q That wiring at the printed circuit 

board could have been the cause of the squat 

switch's failure to activate the low-pitch 

solenoid, couldn't it have been? 

A Had it not been making contact. 

What was recorded was that the wires were too 

taut, so I really don't know the nature of any 

failure there. 

Q What I asked you, sir, is, Could 

the wire that he fixed there have been what 

caused the problem, the discrepancy that was 

written up on the 3rd? 

A I don't know the nature of his 

repair either. 

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Q I didn't ask you that. Could it 

have -- could a repair at the printed circuit 

board contributed to the discrepancy that was 

written up on "the 3rd? 

A This was after the discrepancy 

that was written up on the 3rd, is it not? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You can't ask a 

question 

just 

THE WITNESS: All right I'm 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Answer the 

question if you can. 

THE WITNESS: I don't think so 

Q 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

You don't think so. Now, he also 

says that the wires at the printed circuit 

board need to be extended so they're not so 

tight. If wires are too tight, can that break 

the continuity at the printed circuit board? 

A Conceivably it could. 

Q All right. And then he goes on to 

say, a few lines down, "The squat switch 

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cannon plug to squat switch wire number 7 not 

making contact. Spliced wires on both sides 

and jumped the cannon plug. Works fine. 

Coverings on both splices are not shrunk." 

That relates to the entries we just talked 

about, doesn't it? 

A Yes. It appears to. 

Q All right. So he cut wires, 

didn't he? 

A The only thing I see -- I can't 

ask a question. I understand that. 

Q Just -- it's a simple question. 

You were at the informal. You listened to Mr. 

Smith. You were at his deposition. You even 

asked him questions. This document was 

explained. You can't jump around the cannon 

plug without cutting wires, can you, sir? 

A I would say that you can by 

different methods, but he likely did cut a 

wire 

Q So then why did you testif y 

yesterday tha t no wires were cut, when you 

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know they were? 

A And I believe there was testimony 

from Mr. Smith that one wire was broke and 

possibly they didn't even need to cut that. 

Q Try my question, sir. Why did you 

testify yesterday that no wires were cut, when 

you knew there were wires cut? 

A I'm referring to the official log 

maintenance record entries 

Q You knew as a fact that wires were 

cut, didn't you, sir? 

what 

Q 

I'd like to state that if that is 

Please answer the question, sir. 

You knew as a fact that wires were cut 

(No response.) 

MR. THORNTON: I'd ask the Court 

to direct the witness to answer the question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, you --

THE WITNESS: Yes. Then a wire 

was cut. I think I recall that from Mike's 

deposition. 

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BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q All right. Why, then, did you 

testify under oath yesterday that no wires 

were cut? 

A If that's true, that's my error. 

Q Do you understand you're under 

oath, under pain of perjury? 

A Yes, sir, I do. 

Q So you perjured yourself. Is that 

correct, sir? 

Honor 

MR. MORRIS 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

Objection, , Your 

It's sustained. 

The Court will make that determination. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Now, going on. Mr. Smith says, 

when he jumps around the cannon plug, the 

squat switch works fine, doesn't he, in the 

turnover sheet, R-1? "Jumped cannon plug, 

works fine." 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. Now, if he's jumping around 

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the cannon plug and just going around the 

cannon plug and 6 and 7 are mis-wired, that's 

not going to fix the problem, is it, sir? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

didn't hear that. 

I'm sorry. 

MR. THORNTON: If he just jumps 

around the cannon plug -- may I approach. Your 

Honor? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. I just had 

trouble hearing you. That's all. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q This is the cannon plug. It's 

going up on the wing. Right? 

A Correct. 

Q And if he just jumps around from 

underneath the turtle shell to down here some 

place to an exposed wire, and it's mis-wired 

down here, that's not going to fix the 

problem, is it, sir? 

A I'm not sure I understand the 

nature of how he jumped this thing. I'm --

Q Take a look at --

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stapled them together and marked them. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q First page of R-3. If you imagine 

where that white wire is, that's where the 

splice occurred. That's where the jump began. 

A" Okay. So that would be our power 

wire at the cannon plug. 

Q Above the wing. We're underneath 

the turtle shell here. See that? 

A 

Q 

A 

Correct 

Okay? 

Okay. 

Q Then you can see it a little more 

clearly on the second page of R-3. It's going 

over the leading edge of the wing. 

A Okay. 

Q And on the third page you can see 

it even more clearly. It's going over the 

leading edge of the wing. 

A Correct. 

Q Fifth page is more of the same. 

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The sixth page, see it's coming down 

underneath, going up into the wheel well. 

A Okay. 

Q And then on "tihe seventh page, you 

can see where he's indicating that he respliced it to complete the jump. Now, my 

question, sir, is, if that's where the jump 

occurred, if 6 and 7 were mis-wired, the 

solenoid wouldn't have worked, would it have? 

A I think it could work, because 

he's taking the power wire and he's bypassing 

the squat switch, making the correct 

connection, 

Q He's bypassing the squat switch? 

How's he bypassing the squat switch? You can 

see where it's up in the wheel well, well 

m 

above the squat switch. Squat switch is down 

here, isn't it? 

A 

connected? 

Yes. Where's this wire being 

Q Where it's indicated, above the 

Adel clip, Adel clamp. 

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A Is it above where it was 

previously spliced? 

Q Well, you know that he indicated 

that. ~' He's -- you were at his deposition, 

where he circled exactly where he did it. 

A Because I thought in that 

deposition he told me he went from the cannon 

plug back, clear back up to the cannon plug. 

Q Well, if -- I'll ask you to assume 

that that's where the splice occurred, as 

indicated on the last page, up in the wheel 

well. Now, if that's what he did to jump 

around the cannon plug, and 6 and 7 were miswired, the solenoid would not have worked, 

would it have? 

A I think it would work. 

Q Yu think it would. Why is that, 

sir? Why do think it would work? 

A Because I think it's totally 

bypassed the squat switch. 

Q It's bypassed the squat switch. 

And how is that accomplished by that jump? 

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A As you just depicted to me here. 

Q Well, you've got a wire underneath 

the cannon plug, a wire above the cannon plug. 

And he's gone and bypassed the cannon plug. 

And where the splices are and where the jump 

occurred is well above the squat switch. So 

how has he bypassed the squat switch? 

A I think he's provided a continuous 

source by using that jump wire to take the 

squat switch out of the system. 

Q That's your understanding. 

A Yes. If that --

Q That's your understanding of 

electrical circuit 

A That's correct 

Q That by -- I'm going to the board 

now -- that by doing a -- imagine the wing is 

here -- by doing a jump like this, as 

indicated by the red, that somehow the squat 

switch was taken out of the circuit? 

A Yes. I'd like to refer to Mike 

Smith's testimony to see about it. 

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Q No. My question is real simple, 

sir. If you just jump from here to here on 

wire number 7, it's your testimony, as the 

person that the traveling public looks to for 

aviation safety when it comes to electricity, 

that a jump like this is going to take this 

out of the circuit? 

A 

Q 

A 

No. That would not as 

That would not 

•- drawn there 

Q Thank you. Again, I'll ask you to 

assume, as you've been qualified as an expert, 

for the purposes of this next question, that 

that was the jump that was done. If that was 

the jump that was done and the solenoid 

started to work fine, then it couldn't have 

been mis-wired. 6 and 7 could not have been 

mis-wired. Is that correct, sir? 

A That would be true. 

Q Now, a number of mechanics worked' 

on this after Mr. Smith gave the turnover. Is 

that correct? 

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A That's correct. 

Q And they were doing various 

things, as indicated by log page -346, Exhibit 

C-3. Or is it C-5? 

C-4. 

A C-4? Thank you. 

Q Log page -3 46. Okay. I'm on that 

page. 

A All right. Mr. Smith did a number 

of things and the mechanics were doing a 

number of things to button it up. Right? 

A Correct. 

Q And we also know from R-1, the 

turnover sheet, that the wiring harness was 

left unsecured. 

A Yes 

Q And so we got mechanics crawling 

around in there doing various things, with an 

unsecured wiring harness. 

A Correct. 

Q All right . Now, look a t the last 

entr y on the correctiv e actio n side . Now, 

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first of all, you testified yesterday that 

this case is not about faulty maintenance 

documentation. Right? There's no charges in 

the complaint about faulty maintenance 

documentation. Isn't that correct? 

A 

Q 

That's correct. 

All right 

MR. MORRIS: What exhibit were you 

referring to again? 

MR. THORNTON: C-4, log page -346. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 2 06346. Just for 

the record, when the Counsel's referring to -

346, he's dropped the first three digits, 

because 206- is the consistent number of all 

the log pages. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Now, do you see under item number 

7 that somebody signed off? There's a 

corrective action of. Repaired wire. 

A Correct, I see that 

Q And every one of the ones above 

them, when the task is completed, they draw a 

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line all the way over to show that that's 

done. There's no -- you can't write anything 

more in there. They've signed it off. Right? 

A I agree. 

Q So for item 5, 9, 8, and 6, those 

were completed, as was 7. 

A I agree. 

Q But somebody repaired a wire, 

didn't they? 

A Yes 

Q And, now, they didn't document it 

properly, but they repaired a wire. 

A I think possibly the person 

started to write that and then went to the 

next log page and completed their corrective 

action. 

Q But there's an indication that 

somebody repaired a wire. Isn't that correct? 

A That's true, 

Q Now, did you go to the mechanics 

and say. Is this what possibly happened? Is 

this what did happen? Did you just repair a 

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wire and not do a proper corrective action 

notation? 

A No, I did not. 

Q But it's just as "likely that 

somehow or another, wires were broken or 

damaged in some way, and somebody repaired it 

•and didn't properly document it. That's just 

as likely, isn't it, sir? 

A That could be true. 

Q And you have no way, you have no 

way of ruling out that possibility, do you? 

Q 

I do not 

Because you failed to conduct a 

proper investigation and talk to the 

mechanics. Isn't that correct, sir? 

A I relied upon the entries made on 

the aircraft flight logs. 

Q But a proper, a proper 

investigation, not as to bad maintenance 

documentation, a proper investigation of 

whether this wire was broke before or after 

March 3, would have involved talking to the 

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flight crews and talking to the mechanics. 

A I could have done better in that 

regard. Yes, sir. 

Q And you purposely chose not to do 

that. 

A Okay. I'll agree to that. 

Q Now, on log page 206347 in C-3, 

item number 10, there was a wire broken in the 

J107 under the turtle shell. And it's --

there's an indication that it was repaired on 

item number 10 on the corrective action side, 

at J107, reference General Maintenance Manual 

9.2.0. Right? 

A That's true. 

Q If that wire was broken in the 

cannon plug, then that would explain exactly 

what Mr. Smith was experiencing. When he 

jumped around the cannon plug, it worked fine, 

because there was no continuity in the cannon 

plug. Isn't that right, sir? 

A That would be correct. I think 

this is the wire that Mike broke during the 

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course of his troubleshooting. 

Q Well, he found it broke, but does 

he know --do you know as a fact that he broke 

it? 

A No, I do not. 

Q So that would explain, if it was 

broken, why the low-pitch solenoid did not 

activate and why, when he jumped around the 

cannon plug, he had continuity. 

A It could, yes. 

Q And why, after all the repairs 

were done, that the ops checked good. 

A It's not my understancMhg that 

that was the case, because the aircraft was 

then ferried to Cheyenne. 

Q 

did work 

And was checked out there and it 

After the corrective action to the 

wiring. 

Q All right. And now, when 

mechanics are troubleshooting, they're trying 

to figure out what the problem is. Right? 

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A That's correct. 

Q And in a perfect world, everything 

they do should be documented, shouldn't it? 

A That's true. 

Q But you've been in the aviation 

business for a long time. Sometimes 

mechanics, if they try something, it doesn't 

work, and they put it back together, they 

don't write everything down, do they? 

A That does happen. I agree. 

Q Shouldn't happen, but it does. 

A Yes. 

Q And to find out whether anybody 

was cutting wires and did anything that might 

have caused 6 and 7 to be mis-wired, a 

responsible inspector doing a thorough and 

credible job would have talked to the 

mechanics, wouldn't he? 

A Yes 

Q Now, we know that there was wires 

that were too tight at the printed circuit 

board. We know we had a broken wire in the 

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cannon plug. We know that wires were 

repaired, according to the turnover sheet. 

Fixed -- wires were fixed at the printed 

circuit board by Mr. Smith. All of these 

things could have contributed to the 

discrepancy that the pilot wrote up in Denver. 

A It could. 

Q And have you ever found, sir, that 

in the process of fixing something, the 

mechanics broke something else? 

A Yes. 

Q And that could have very likely 

happened in this case. 

A It could. 

Q Now, as to C-5, what role does the 

manufacturer have in the maintenance 

practices, procedures, policies, and rules of 

carriers? 

MR. MORRIS: Would you say that 

again? I didn't hear that. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q What role does the manufacturer of 

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the aircraft have --

MR. MORRIS: Thank you. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q -- in the formulation of policies, 

rules, and practices of a carrier as it 

relates to aircraft maintenance? 

A They have none. 

Q They have none. Do manufacturers 

provide maintenance manuals? 

A They do. 

Q And are those maintenance manuals 

submitted to the FAA? 

A The airworthiness limitations is 

FAA approved. 

Q And this maintenance provision 

relating to the squat switch on the Beech 1900 

was submitted to the F7VA by Great Lakes, 

wasn't it? 

A It's adopted by Great Lakes and 

accepted as part of their program. 

Q Right. So it was just -- this 

program was specifi-rally accepted by the FAA. 

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A Yes, by virtue of reference to the 

Great Lakes CAMP. 

Q Right. And at no time, at no 

time, did the FAA every take any exception to 

this provision of the Great Lakes maintenance 

program as it related to squat switch repairs 

before this incident. 

A To my knowledge, no. 

Q And there is nothing in this 

portion of the maintenance manual that wasn't 

complied with, as far as you know. 

A The part that they complied with 

was via the ohm meter check. They didn't use 

the breakout box section. 

Q Well, there wasn't any 

contravention of anything in here. They could 

have used either the ohm meter or the test 

box. They used the ohm meter, and they did 

everything that the ohm meter procedure called 

for. 

A That's correct. 

Q Just for the Court's appreciation . 

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go to -- oh, I'm sorry. I don't have these 

pages numbered. In C-10, page 23. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Page 23 in the 

Court's is mostly a blank page. 

MR. THORNTON: 24. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 24 is --

I'm just-doing this for the record -- is five 

representations of landing gear position 

warning-description operation. The middle one 

shows the pedestal. The middle diagram shows 

the pedestal. Is that the page you're 

referring to? 

MR. THORNTON: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. That's --

MR. THORNTON: The lower righthand corner. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. That's 24 

of 43. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q The lower right-hand corner, where 

it says -- shows the landing gear and it shows 

the safety switch, that's where, on the 

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landing gear, the squat switch is installed. 

Isn't that correct, sir? 

Q 

That's correct. 

And is -- the one to the left of 

it, is that looking up at the underside of the 

wing? 

A Yes, it is 

Q And so that's -- we're seeing 

where the cannon plugs are underneath the 

wing. 

A Yes. It's a pictorial, to me, of 

the lower portion of the main landing gear 

drag wings. 

Q And in -- now I'm calling your 

attention to Exhibit C-12. Have it? 

A I do. 

Q And nothing in C-12 mentions in 

anyway faulty maintenance documentation, does 

it? 

A That's kind of open, because with 

regards to my writing of maintenance, 

maintenance includes the documentation. 

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A I believe I did, but I can't state 

the actual contents of the conversation with 

him. 

Q Do you know what investigation Mr. 

Fohl did? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I didn't hear 

that. Counsel 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Do you know what investigation Mr. 

Fohl did? 

A No, I do not 

Q Now, sometimes in order to 

establish a constructive relationship between 

the carrier and the agency, the carrier will 

just say, Look, we may have made a mistake, we 

may not have made a mistake, but let's figure 

out a way to get this corrected in the future. 

A That's true 

Q And they try to have a cooperative 

working relationship with the agency. Right? 

A Yes. 

Q And that's exactly what Mr. Fohl 

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is doing with C-13, isn't it? He's saying the 

carrier's taken steps to fix the problem into 

the future. 

A Yes. After the admission and 

validation of what I was saying in my letter 

of investigation. 

Q But you didn't really do an 

investigation, did you? Well, you've already 

admitted that. And you don't know whether Mr. 

Fohl did an investigation either. 

A I --

Q He's just trying to figure out, 

What can we do to make sure this doesn't 

happen again and get the agency off our back. 

Isn't that what he's doing? 

A That is in there. Yes. 

Q And one of the things 

MR. THORNTON: May I approach. 

Your Honor? 

Q 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

-- they did is, instea d of giving 

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their mechanics R-6s and requiring to make 

sure each wire matches each wire, they start 

fabricating in their shop this device. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Watch the wires, 

Mr. Thornton. 

MR. THORNTON: R-7 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Watch the mike 

wires 

MR. THORNTON: Oh, thank you. You 

almost had me there, mike. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q R-7, and that's going to eliminate 

a lot of the problem, isn't it? 

A I agree, it will 

Q All you've got to do is screw in 

the two switches and plug in the plug. 

A Proper rigging and -- yes. 

Q Yes. So Great Lakes, you know, 

responded positively to your letter. 

A They have. 

Q And rather than, you know, drag it 

out and beat it out, they just said. Look, 

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we'll figure out a way we can fix it. And 

they fixed it, didn't they? 

A They have made constructive 

corrections. Yes. 

Q And you're satisfied with this 

fix, aren't you? 

A I haven't totally evaluated that, 

but it's looking good. I'll say that. 

Q 

R-6 --

A 

R-7 is a definite improvement over 

It is much better 

Q -- in terms of eliminating the 

prospect of any mis-wiring. 

A Yes. 

Q And the credit the carrier got for 

that effort is you want to hit them with a big 

fine. Right? 

MR. MORRIS: Objection, Your 

Honor. He doesn't make that determination. 

MR. THORNTON: He testified about 

fines yesterday. Judge. 

MR. MORRIS: No, Your Honor. He 

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didn't testify about fines 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well --

MR. MORRIS: He testified about 

sanction ranges. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- whether or not 

there's 

any 

question 

MR. THORNTON: I'll withdraw the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q What's the statute of limitations 

to bring any violation against the carrier? 

MR. MORRIS: Objection, Your 

Honor. That's -- it's going to be beyond his 

realm. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if he knows, 

he can answer. If he doesn't know, say you. 

don't know. 

that 

THE WITNESS 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

I'm not ".sure of 

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A 

Is it six months? 

I'm not sure of that 

Q Do you know that you started thi; 

process, sent the -- your letter, C-12, just 

days before the statute ran? 

MR. MORRIS: Your Honor, I'm going 

to object to this, because the statute of 

limitations is contained in Part 13 of the 

CFRs 

JUDGE GOODWIN: There's no 

indication that -- that's more of a legal 

question than it's a technical question. 

MR. THORNTON: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll sustain the 

objection. It's also jurisdictional. If he 

violated the statute of limitations, it's 

jurisdictional to the whole case. 

Q 

BY MR. THORNTON; 

You testified on direct that when 

this first came to your attention, you 

believed there was -some safety-of-flight 

issues 

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1 A That's correct. •' 

2 Q Havin g conducte d th e 

3 investigation, having participated in the 

4 informal conference, having listened in on the 

5 depositions of the Great Lakes mechanics and 

6 pilots, and having sat through a day and a 

7 third of this hearing, could you please tell 

8 the Court what the safety-of-flight issues, in 

9 fact, are? 

10 A The issue, to me, is that I felt 

11 that the aircraft did not meet its type 

12 design, and it was unsafe due to the anomalies 

13 associated with that mis-wiring regarding the 

14 low-pitch squat solenoids. 

15 Q Well, what specifically, what 

16 specifically were the safety-of-flight risks 

17 posed by this situation? 

18 A It would have to do with control19 ability of the airplane. 

2 0 Q Not in the air, because we know it 

21 fails safe to the flight mode. Right. 

22 A That's true. 

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Q So it's not even an issue when the 

airplane's in the air. Right? 

A That's true. 

Q And if it doesn't function, it's 

wired in parallel so the pilot can override 

the squat switch by lifting up the throttle on 

the pedestal. 

A That's correct. 

Q How, sir, was any person or 

property endangered, even if everything you 

say, without having conducted an 

investigation, is true? 

A Could you rephrase that or restate 

that, please? 

Q How, sir, as a matter of fact, can 

you say, without having conducted an adequate 

investigation, that any person or property was 

endangered, even if -'everything you say was 

true? 

A I can't state specifically how 

they were endangered. 

MR. THORNTON: That's all I have. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I assume 

we're going to have redirect. Let's use this 

as an opportunity to take about a ten-minute 

break, since it's a breaking point. So^we'll 

go off the record. Come back between ten 

after and quarter after. Off the record. 

(Whereupon, a brief recess was 

taken.) 

Morris. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Mr. 

Q 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MORRIS 

All right. I'm going to take this 

a little bit out of order from how it was 

presented to you, but I'm -- you'll have to 

bear with me there, Mr. Hulett. The first 

thing is, we've been talking about R-6 and R7. Okay. And it was added that R-7 was the 

corrective measures that were taken as a 

result of this action. Is that -- one of the 

steps that somebody took. Right? 

Yes 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure you're 

close to the mike, so --

Okay. 

Q 

MR. MORRIS: Can you hear me? 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

So let me ask you this. Whose 

certificate is this? 

A Great Lakes Aviation, 

this? 

A 

So whose maintenance program is 

Great Lakes Aviation, 

Q And whose ops specs are we talking 

about? 

A Great Lakes Aviation. 

Q So whose obligation, if there's 

any ambiguity in their program, is it to fill 

those gaps? 

A Great Lakes Aviation. =-

Q Any reason this couldn't have been 

done three, four, five years ago? 

A No. 

Q If ther e was a void and they were 

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doing repairs, isn't it their responsibility 

as their certificate for them to provide the 

information to their mechanics? 

A Yes, it is^ 

Q Okay. Thank you. There was some 

discussion about safe flight. And flight is 

interpreted from the time the gate's pulled 

away to the time they arrive at the next gate. 

isn't it? 

Yes 

Q The purpose of the operation is to 

conduct flights. 

A Yes. 

Q That is considered the flight. It 

doesn't have to be in air. For example, if a 

mechanic is just taxiing, for the purposes of 

moving it from one place on the ramp to the 

hangar, for example, that's not for purposes 

of flight, is it? 

A No, it's not. 

Q But if the pilot is taxiing to 

take off, that is for purposes of flight. 

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A Yes, it is 

Q And after landing, taxiing to the 

gate would be for purposes of flight then. 

A Yes, 

Q Okay. I want you to turn to C-4. 

There was some -- in the exhibits that were 

shown to you dealing with this entry about the 

wire. 306 -- log page 306346, do you see 

that? 

A 206. 

Q 206346, C-4? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Okay. How many wires were crossed 

here? Weren't there wires 6 and 7 crossed? 

A Yes. 

Q That's two. Right? 

A That's correct. 

Q This log entry on 206346 refers to 

wire in the singular, doesn't it? 

A Yes, it does. 

Q Now, and even in the plain 

language, that is a wire that supposedly was 

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to be somehow undocumented by repaired. We 

don't know what it is, but there was a 

repaired wire, if you accept a premise that 

that is a complete log entry. 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. Now, look at 206347 and 

2 0 6346 at the same time_. Look at the 

handwriting on that. Does that appear to be 

the same person making that entry, to you? 

A 

foundation. 

It does. 

MR. THORNTON: Objection, no 

This witness hasn't been 

qualified as a handwriting expert. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: To the extent that 

he will testify about handwriting, I'm not 

going to allow it. It just --

MR. MORRIS: Okay, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- it'd be -- I 

mean, let me explain the decision. The reason 

is they're clearly Xeroxed. There's no 

foundation. And I would be hesitant --

MR. MORRIS I can deal -- I can 

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skin that cat out of the way. 

Q 

BY MR. MORRIS 

If you look at the first two words 

on entry, "Repaired wire" -- do you see that 

on 206346? 

A I do 

Is that the exact same first two 

words on item number 10? 

A 

Q 

That is the same. 

Okay. And it's referring to, 

Repaired wire at J107. J107 is the cannon 

plug on top. Right? ; i-'" ' '-_ 

A Yes, it is. 

Q At the very top. So again, this 

is important to understand, as shown from the 

picture and the R-7, is we got splice -- or we 

got connections that are occurring here up in 

the plug, and we got this all the way down 

here. Right? 

A That's correct 

JUDGE GOODWIN: "This" being the 

squat switch. 

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Q The squat switch at the bottom of 

R-7. Okay. So we are dealing with one wire 

up at the cannon plug, according to this log 

entry. 

A That's correct 

Q Now, also look at the position of 

these -- of the repair wire wording. Aren't 

both 206346 and 206347 literally at the same 

column on the log page? In other words, 

there's a blank below it, and the one 

immediately above it is where both start the 

word. Repaired wire. 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. So your inference that it 

appeared an error and just transposed on the 

wrong log sheet, since these were written up 

at the same time, seems to be reasonable. 

isn't it? 

A Yes 

Q Okay. Now, there were some 

discussions or contentions about that the FAA 

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had taken no action against the employees of 

Great Lakes. Do you recall that earlier 

cross-examination? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q At the end of the day, isn'fit, 

in fact. Great Lakes that's responsible for 

everything that its employees does or fails to 

do? 

Q 

That's correct 

And let's talk about in the crossexamination there was a strong inference 

dealing with you not contacting Beech. Well, 

if there's a problem with Great Lakes's 

maintenance and the guidance that it uses to 

maintain its aircraft, who should be 

contacting the manufacturer, you or the FAA? 

Great Lakes or the FAA? 

A Great -- I'd contact Great Lakes 

Q Yes. Is there anywhere in the 

regulations or in Great Lakes CAMP that says 

that the FAA is the auditor for Great Lakes? 

A No, there is not 

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responsibilities for their certificate and 

their paperwork that reflects their 

maintenance. Right. 

MR. THORNTON: Excuse me. Your 

Honor. This is a redirect examination of his 

own witness, and he hasn't asked a question 

that hasn't been leading. I don't want to 

constantly interrupt, but I think he's sort of 

going beyond. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Let's try 

to -- rephrase the --

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q So who's supposed to be contacting 

the manufacturer if there's an ambiguity 

concerning Great Lakes's maintenance program? 

A Great Lakes would. 

Q And is that required as a result 

of their CAMP program, D-72, specifically? 

A No. Great Lakes can develop those 

procedures, policies, standards. 

Q In fact, is i t accurat e to .say 

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that if Great Lakes does not like the 

procedures in a maintenance manual, it is free 

to change that procedure, so long as it's 

acceptable to the Administrator? 

A That is true. 

Q Because it's become their program, 

not the manufacturer's program. 

A That's correct. 

Q In fact, those manuals are created 

as part of a completely different part of the 

FARs for purposes of the manufacturers' 

obligation to create the manuals. 

A Yes, they are. 

Q The manufacturers' obligation is 

to create it for Part 21 or Part 23. Right? 

MR, THORNTON: Excuse me. 

Leading. 

question. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Rephrase the 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Are those manuals designed for the 

manufacturer or are they designed for -- in 

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the interests of the manufacturer or in the 

interests of the company that's going to 

operate the aircraft? 

A The manufacturer 

Q Now, there was also a question 

about Mr. Smith's deposition, about you being 

there and him saying that he performed all 

these ops functions checks. Do you recall 

that cross-examination? 

A Yes, I do 

Q I ask you to turn to C-24, page 

17, beginning from lines 12 through 15. 

(The document referred to was 

marked for identification as 

Complainant's Exhibit 24.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No. 17, according 

to the way I've paginated it. You're on 

Exhibit 24? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes. It's page 24 of 

the transcript page number. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Because as 

I paginated it -- oops. Wait a minute. 

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MR. MORRIS That would be 5 

Well, actually 5 that's right next to the 

transcript. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: One second. Pa"ge 

24, according to the way the Court has 

paginated -- and, I'm sorry, page 17? 

- MR. MORRIS: Yes. It's the 

transcript page 17. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. But the 

problem --

exhibit 

MR. THORNTON: Page 5 of the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm trying to 

do is keep the record straight. 17 of 37 is 

actually the signature page of Michael Vernon 

as attesting, so --

MR. MORRIS: Well, you've got 

the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- you want page -

- all right. Page 17 is paginated 6 of 37 the 

way the Court's paginated the exhibit. 

MR. MORRIS: You're looking at CNEAL R. GROSS 

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24, C-24 the deposition of Mr. Smith? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: C-24 is a 37-page 

document. Okay? The Court paginated it 1 

through 37, because there are things that are 

not sequenced. So if the Court looks at what 

you've drawn the witness's attention to, which 

is 17, the first word on line 1 is. Look. 

MR. MORRIS: Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: The last word in 

line 25 is. Function, F-U-N-C- --

MR. MORRIS: Yes. That's correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. That's 

paginated 6 of 37 the way the Court's 

paginated it 

MR. MORRIS: Okay. 

MR. THORNTON: Because he 

paginates the cover page as well. 

MR. MORRIS: Okay. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Have you reviewed on page -- it's 

the transcript page 17, lines 12 through 15. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You may want to 

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make sure that he's looking at exactly -- if 

you want to approach and just make sure he's 

on the right page. 

THE WITNESS: ""I believe I have it 

correct here. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, you have it." 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Doesn't Mr. Smith acknowledge that 

he didn't think, he performed the systems 

checks? 

MR. THORNTON: Objection. The 

transcript speaks for itself. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, do you want 

him to testify with the transcript or --

rephrase your -- I think the thing to do is 

rephrase your question. My suggestion is, the 

first thing, have the witness read what you 

have in mind, and then pose your question. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Did you -- have you read lines 12 

through 15? 

A Yes, I have 

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Q So based on the hypothetical 

question that was posed to you by Mr. 

Thornton, in fact Mr. Smith did not believe he 

had performed all o i the function tests. 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. Thank you. Now, also in 

this -- turn to C-20. I may go back to the 

deposition in a little bit, but let's turn to 

C-20 first, page 7-6. Okay. This is in 

reference to Mr. Sprague. Now -- Mr. Sprague 

and his training records. Now, Mr. Sprague's 

supposed to receive OJT according to the onthe-job training manual of Great Lakes. It 

includes use of approved data to perform 

maintenance. Correct? 

A 

Q 

Correct 

From the records that we have in 

this case and the maintenance that we know 

that actually or allegedly occurred, did he, 

in fact, use approved data to perform all the 

maintenance that he's saying that he did? 

A No 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Before you leave 

that, the way that's -- in the upper left-hand 

corner, it starts out with 7.2.3. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. That's 

paginated 4 of 21 in the Court's records. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Also yesterday, if I can find it 

here -- do you have R-8 in front of you? 

A I do. 

Q I want you to turn to R-8 for a 

minute. That was the document that was 

presented to you by Mr. Thornton concerning 

the lack of -- or the omission of a training 

record. Okay? And R-8 refers to what type of 

training that he was signed off for? 

A Safety; GMM, or General 

Maintenance Manual; slash lAM, Aircraft 

Inspection Manual; runway incursions, and 

B1900 familiarization. 

Q Okay. And that's dated when? 

A 11/2/2007. 

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Q Okay. Now I want you to turn in 

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of 21 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That would be 13 

MR, THORNTON: We're back on C-2 0? 

MR, MORRIS: C-20. It's RP 7-21 

JUDGE GOODWIN; You're talking 

about --

page' 

MR. MORRIS: Do you have that 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- the preprinted 

page number 7-21? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, the preprinted 

page and the bottom right-hand side. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And it starts at 

the top, 7.8.2, Initial Course Completion? 

MR. MORRIS: Correct. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's page 13 of 

21 in the Court's document. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Do you have that? 

A I do. 

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And are you also looking at R-8? 

I am. 

Q Okay. Does this R-8 reflect the 

Beech familiarization that he received on 

September 13, 2007, that's reflected on this 

document? 

A 

Q 

"Beech fam standard practices"? 

Right 

A 

Q 

A 

9/13/07 

Right . 

Yes. 

Okay. So that's reflected in the 

document R-8. Right? 

A Yes, it is 

Q Is the safety that's on R-8 

reflected on this page 13, or also knov\m as 

page 7-21? 

A The safety is dated 10/29/07. 

Q How about the runway incursions? 

A That is dated 10/30/07. 

Q Okay. And the GMM/AIM training? 

A 10/31/07. 

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Q So basically the R-8 is nothing 

more than a summary of some of the -- some of 

the training in his training records that's 

summarized at 7-21. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And again, there is this 

initial training, and there is recurring 

training that's set forth. And the initial 

training here for his electrical wiring 

diagrams, according to this, didn't occur 

until September 12, 2008. Right? 

A That's correct 

Q Okay. And the runway taxi course 

didn't occur until February 2, 2008. Right? 

A That's correct. February 6, or 

2/6/08. 

Q So about the continuity of -- so 

all the records you did have are reflected in 

C-20. 

A Yes, they are. 

Q C-8 does -- is incorporated and --

R-8 is incorporated in C-20 detaile d 

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description of the training records, isn't it? 

A Yes, it is 

Q Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for the 

record, I do not show that R-8 was admitted. 

It's been identified. 

MR. THORNTON: Offer R-8. 

MR. MORRIS: No objection, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: R-8 for 

identification is received into evidence as 

Respondent's 8. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Now, when he signed -- he being 

Mr. Sprague -- signed the aircraft logs that 

he had performed those maintenance, the 

maintenance manual task that he identified 

does require him to jack the aircraft. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Or someone to jack the 

aircraft. But when he signs it, he's saying 

that he is authorized to perform that jacking 

function, isn't he? 

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question, 

Q 

Yes. 

MR. THORNTON: Objection, leading. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Rephrase the 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

When he signs that log entry, he's 

signing off that he is authorized to perform 

those functions to which he is making that log 

entry. Is that correct? 

MR. THORNTON: Same objection. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

question, Mr. Morris. 

BY MR. MORRIS 

It's the same 

Q Okay. When a mechanic signs a log 

entry identifying a maintenance manual 

reference or identifying a particular task, 

what does that signature represent? 

A They are signing for the complete 

scope of the work for which they have 

referenced and signed. 

Q And does it include all the tasks 

that are identified in that maintenance manual 

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reference? 

A 

Q 

Yes 

And if the maintenance manual 

reference does not encompass all of the 

maintenance that was to be performed, what is 

the mechanic to do in a log entry? 

A There should be detailed 

description of that work performed. 

Q So in a shorthand, in maintenance 

parlance is a mechanic can reference a 

maintenance manual to summarize all the steps 

that they took, and they're representing that 

they took all those steps. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q But if they take steps that are 

not included in that maintenance manual, are 

they required to explain in the logs what 

other steps were taken? 

A Yes, they are. 

Q And is -- the reason for that is' 

because the FAA wants to have -- well, we want 

to have a scrupulous accuracy as to what 

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actually was performed in the performance of 

maintenance. 

A Yes. 

Q So hypothetically, ops check. Ops 

check, if it is not defined anywhere or is not 

referenced anywhere, could be something like: 

Kicked a tire; landing gear didn't collapse. 

My interpretation of ops check is that's an 

adequate ops check, isn't it, if there's no 

reference behind it? Is that --

A That could be true then. 

Q And I used an extreme example. 

I'm not saying that happened in this case. 

But without the linking of what was actually 

performed relating to an ops check, there is 

no way to know what was done at the time a 

contemporaneous documentation of that --

without contemporaneous documentation. Is 

that correct? 

A No. There's no instructions or 

any reference data or standard to which the 

functional or operational check was performed. 

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Q And in the light of the 

regulations and in their program, they're 

required to document that so there is no 

question as to what maintenance was actually 

performed, at a later date. 

MR. THORNTON: Leading. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Leading. Rephrase 

the question. 

MR. MORRIS: Okay. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q So what's the purpose of requiring 

great accuracy in the log pages? 

A For just that, for accuracy and to 

determine exactly what maintenance was 

performed and how the aircraft was, in fact, 

returned to an airworthy condition. 

MR. MORRIS: I believe that's it. 

sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else for 

this witness? 

MR. THORNTON: Briefly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just based on the 

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questions that Mr. Morris has posed. 

MR. THORNTON: I understand. 

RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Take a look at Mr. Smith's 

deposition, C-24, page 6 of 37, page 17 of the 

transcript, which he called your attention to. 

A Okay. 

Q And the question that Mr. Morris 

had, "So how can you -- were you able to do an 

ops check for every single function that this 

squat switch performs?" And what did he 

answer? 

A "I don't think we did." 

Q Now, you see on page 18 of the 

transcript, line 4, the question was, "Okay. 

So what I'm hearing you say then is that you 

didn't do an RII for everything that the squat 

switch does. You did as it relates to the 

landing gear horn. Don't let me put words in 

your mouth. I am trying to understand what 

you're telling me." And what did Mr. Smith 

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answer? 

A He answered, "No. We did it per 

the landing gear horn. We did check. We did 

run the aircraft afterwards. We did check the 

low-pitch stop system, which functioned at 

that time." 

Q And on page 19 of the transcript, 

line 20, Mr. Morris asked, "Okay. What 

procedure did you use as far as doing the 

engine runup then?" And what did Mr.. Smith 

answer? 

A He answered, "We put the aircraft 

back down on the ground and ran both engines. " 

Q And Mr. Morris, on line 24, said, 

"Okay." And then what did Mr. Smith answer? 

A "And we -- you know, we performed 

ground fine checks and low-pitch stop checks." 

Q So, in fact, Mr. Smith testified 

that the low-pitch stop checks were done. 

A Yes 

Q And in terms of interpreting , on 

C-4 -- just give me a second her e -- on log 

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page -3 46, and when Mr. Morris was asking you 

about similarities between what was found on 

that last box on -346 under the corrective 

action and what is written under item 10 on 

the correction action on -347, you can't do 

any better than speculate about what that 

means. Right? 

A That's correct. 

Q And there is no allegation in this 

lawsuit, in this enforcement action, ateput 

faulty maintenance documentation, is there? 

MR. MORRIS: Objection, Your 

Honor. That's beyond the scope of my --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it was asked 

and answered. 

THE WITNESS: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So that' s okay. 

I'll sustain. The answer is struck. Or 

sustain the objection. Strike the answer, 

but --

MR. THORNTON: Lastly --

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- state for the 

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record it was asked and answered at least 

twice 

BY MR. THORNTON: 

Q Lastly, i^ you picked up the phone 

and called Raytheon-Beech and said, I'm Mike 

Hulett, I'm from the FAA in Denver, and I'm 

trying to understand the understand the wiring 

of your squat switch, they'd give you all the 

help you asked for, wouldn't they? 

A I don't think so. No. . 

Q They wouldn't? 

A I've e-mailed them with other 

issues, not regarding this particular case, 

and received no response, albeit that I was 

trying to do it in benefit to Great Lakes 

Aviation. 

Q And have you ever seen a logbook 

page that references jacking the aircraft? 

A I have 

Q Have you ever seen a Great Lakes 

logbook page that references jacking the 

aircraft? 

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A I believe, yes, that I have --

Q You have? 

A -- seen them reference to jacking 

the aircraft^loefore. 

Q You're out on that ramp 

frequently. Right? 

A I'm not on the ramp in Denver 

anymore. I haven't been out there very much 

at all. 

Q Are you aware that aircraft are 

frequently jacked in connection with 

maintenance being performed? 

A I am. 

Q Right. And have you ever violated 

Great Lakes for not writing up jacking as a 

part of their procedures? 

A No, I have not. 

MR. THORNTON: That's all I have. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Done with this 

witness? 

MR. MORRIS: No, sir. I have a 

couple more questions based on that. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, then he's 

going to get another shot, so --

MR. MORRIS: Understood, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, again, we're 

going to confine this to the questions from 

Mr. Thornton. 

MR. MORRIS:_ Understood, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We're going to 

continue to narrow the scope. 

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Turn to C-5, page 3, paragraph 

(a). Do you see that' 

A I do 

Q What's the very first thing 

referenced for Maintenance Manual 3260.05? 

A "Perform the three-point jacking 

preferred procedure. Procedures referenced 

Chapter 7-10-00, all tires must be clear of 

the floor. 

Q 

206341 

Okay. Then turn to C-4, log page 

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A Okay. 

Q See the entry where it has MM, 

Maintenance Manual, 32-60-05? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Isn't that referenced, in fact, 

telling you that they jacked the aircraft to 

perform this maintenance? 

A That's correct. 

Q Turn to page C-24 -- or Exhibit C24. And I believe it's page 6 of your 

transcript, sir. It's actually pages 19 and 

20 of the actual transcript. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. It's 

paginated 6 of 37, but the transcript itself 

is as you've stated. 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Focusing on page 20, you'll see 

that it says, "Okay. Question: How can you 

tell from this entry though?" What was Mr. 

Smith's response? 

A "You can't. Basically, the only 

way that you could tell that from the entry is 

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the statement that it was ops checks good." 

MR. MORRIS: Nothing further, sir 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Based on -• 

careful 

MR. THORNTON: No th i ng. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Did you trip over 

the J107 or what? 

MR. MORRIS: Maybe I'll get lucky 

and break my laptop, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Did you have 

anything? 

MR. THORNTON: Nothing. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Are we finished 

with this witness? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

with anybody prior to the conclusion of the 

hearing. While you're permitted to stay in 

the hearing rooma^ a technical advisor, you 

cannot discuss your testimony. Understand you 

can still provide technical advise to Mr. 

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Morris, but you can't discuss your testimony, 

what you said, couldn't say, or anything else. 

Understand? 

Honor 

step down. 

excused.) 

THE WITNESS: I understand, Your 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You may 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

(Whereupon, the witness was 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Morris, I 

indicated to Mr. Thornton that I had.a --

Go ahead and step down. 

If it would be helpful, I can take 

a picture of that, what's on the -- you don't 

call them chalkboards anymore, but --

MR. MORRIS: Whiteboard. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; -- whatever that 

board is, and send it to you. The reason I 

bring that up is there is testimony today that 

referenced it, and I think it might be helpful 

to someone who reviewed the -- I can put it in 

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as either Complainant's, Respondent's, or a 

joint or a Court exhibit. 

MR. MORRIS: I have no objection. 

I think it should be a Respondent's exhibit, 

sir. And, of course, I'm not going to object 

to it. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Thornton? -

MR. THORNTON: That's fine with 

me. What, 

R- what are we on? 

JUDGE GOODWIN; It would be --

hold on just a second, 

MR. THORNTON: R-10? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And what 

I'll do at the break is I'll take a digital, 

show both of you the digital. And then if 

that's okay, what I'll do, Mr. Morris, is I'll 

arrange to e-mail it to you, and if you'll 

then share it with Mr. Thornton. 

(The document referred to was 

marked for identification as 

Respondent's Exhibit 10 and 

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received in evidence.) 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. Sir, now 

that the witness is off the stand, I would ask 

that the Court take judicial notice of FAR 

Part 13, which establishes the statute of 

limitations in this case. Actually the 

regulatory limitations in this case, the 

notice must be issued two years from the date 

of violation. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Give me the 

citation again. I didn't hear it. 

MR. MORRIS: It's 14 CFR, Part 13. 

It's within Part 13 I don't have the 

specific cite off the top of my head, but it's 

contained therein. The actual statute of 

limitations is five years, but by regulation 

we have limited it to two years. I believe 

that the six months referenced is the 49 CFR 

821 -- Part 821 rule dealing with NTSB cases. 

Dealing with airmen, that is, in fact, six 

months. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: As to his request 

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for judicial notice, Mr. Thornton, do you have 

any objection? 

MR. THORNTON: Obviously not. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. 

It's a standard practice of the Court to take 

judicial notice of things that are commonly 

within the realm of the public and certainly 

legislation and FARs and CFRs are. 

Mr. Morris, any other witnesses? 

MR. MORRIS: No, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You rest? 

MR. MORRIS: We rest. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me ask you 

this, Mr. Thornton. It's five minutes of 

11:00. We can break now, come back, and start 

your case. Or we can start your case and 

break 12-ish. Your call. 

MR. THORNTON: As a result of Mr. 

Hulett's testimony, one of my witnesses, the 

one who's sitting here, I'm probably not going 

to call. My other witnesses are on the way. 

So it would probably make sense to take a 

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break now, if that's all right with the Court. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we do 

that. Let's come back at 12:15. What I'll do 

in the interim is I'll take a picture. "T'll 

share it with the two of you off the record. 

So we're going to -- it's five minutes of 

11:00. -Let's return at about 12:15. Well, 

it's -- what time did you tell your witnesses 

to be --

MR. THORNTON: No. They're on 

their way. 12:15 will be plenty of time. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, famous last 

words There's probably a wreck on the 

interstate, 

MR. THORNTON: Well, one is just 

coming from the hotel. It's a few blocks 

away 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Like I said, 

famous last words 

MR. THORNTON: Yes. But as the 

Court has probably caught on now, I'm not 

completely familiar with all the rules and 

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regulations relating to these particular 

hearings. But I've been in court before, and 

if I was in Federal Court, I would be making 

a motion for a judgment" as a matter of., law 

right now. And I would make that motion. 

I think the Government has failed 

to establish and carry their burden of proof. 

Mr. Hulett has admitted that he didn't do an 

adequate investigation. Mr. Hulett has 

admitted that the most he can do is speculate 

about what happened. And Mr. Hulett has 

acknowledged that, unless 16 different 

licensed persons involved in aviation are 

lying, that his version of the facts is not 

correct. And based upon that, I think that it 

would be appropriate to rule as a matter of 

law right now that the Government failed to 

carry their burden. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Morris, you 

want to respond? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. I think 

that the representation is a tad too broad. 

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Again, this case boils down to the 

documentation or the failure to document what 

maintenance is now being identified as having 

been performed. 

The guts of this case is: Here's 

what the records tell at the time, it's kind 

of locked in stone, what happened. That does 

not jive with the statements of whoever these 

witnesses may be called to testify, because it 

ultimately boils down to a credibility issue 

that the Judge must make a determination is, 

is what they say at the time what happened? 

Or is it what they're saying later on in time 

what they said happened after the agency 

notified them that we were looking into this 

matter. That's why the logbooks themselves 

should be given great weight as to what 

actually happened and not what is supplemented 

later on. 

We've got no evidence from any 

other witnesses that talk about -- the only --

strike that. There is one witness that the 

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Respondent did call out of turn -- and again, 

that should not be considered for purposes of 

this motion that identified that he did not 

see a problem with the ground idle versus 

flight idle. But we're not at that stage yet. 

In the light most favorable to the agency, the 

standard is all inferences must be in favor to 

the Government There is no indication at 

this point that those logbooks should be 

questioned at all. They identified those. 

They placed those there. And Agent Hulett has 

already been -- testified and subject to 

cross-examination. 

Now, what weight you provide that 

is a different matter. But for purposes of a 

motion for judgment, I don't -- frankly, I 

don't think we're even close. 

MR. THORNTON; May I just say on e 

thing, Judge? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. One more 

thing? 

MR. THORNTON: One more thing 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to write 

MR. THORNTON: You remember when I 

started out my cross-examination with Mr. 

Hulett, I asked him what this case was about. 

And you even sustained an objection for having 

him reconfirm that this case was not 

maintenance documentation. If they wanted to 

make a case about maintenance documentation, 

they could. But the case they made, if you 

look at paragraphs 9, 10, 11, and 12 of their 

complaint, is operating an aircraft 27 times 

in unairworthy condition. And they've failed 

to make that showing. They've failed to prove 

that the faulty maintenance was performed on 

February 28, as opposed to having been a 

product of troubleshooting that occurred 

sometime between the 3rd and the 5th. 

Inferences may be drawn in their 

favor, but they have the burden of proof. And 

based upon the testimony of this witness, they 

haven't come close to carrying it. 

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MR. MORRIS: Well, Your Honor, 

he's -- and I appreciate the approach, but he 

is essentially trying to tell the Government 

what violations it must pursue or must charge. 

The fact that the underlying maintenance 

provides or omits this is probative to whether 

or not the aircraft was airworthy and, 

frankly, whether or not they could have even 

performed or, in fact, even did perform the 

maintenance that they are now saying that they 

did, which is totally undocumented. 

So it's the undocumented 

maintenance that results in the crossing of 

the wires where we have the unairworthy 

aircraft conducting the flights. And it is 

not limited to just the 27 flights, remember. 

Also, there's that 4313(b) violation that 

talks about. Performed maintenance in a manner 

that the condition of the aircraft was at 

least -- was not at least in its original or 

properly altered condition. So that's the key 

here is that we did, in fact, allege the 

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improper performance of the maintenance that 

is reflected by the inadequate and the absence 

of maintenance records. 

They are tied to -- it's like 

fiscal law. If it's authorized, you can do 

it. If it's not authorized, you cannot do it. 

That's the way this thing is structured. And 

they have -- what has happened here is the 

testimony from Agent Hulett clearly 

establishes that the procedures that they 

represent that they did, they, in fact, had no 

processes, no procedures, and, frankly, no 

identification contemporaneous in the logbooks 

that identifies what they didi or should have 

done. { 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I'm going 

to deny it at this point, Mr. Thornton. And 

frankly, I filed the motion in every case I 

ever tried. So -- but at this point, that 

doesn't mean that -- but at this time, the 

Court's going to deny the motion. 

We'll go off the record. Let's 

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make our return sometime between 12:15 and 

12:30 

taken.) 

seated. 

(Whereupon, a brief recess was 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Counsel, be 

MR. MORRIS: See, Mr. Thornton and 

I have talked, and we have reached a 

settlement in this case. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

MR. MORRIS: And we'd like to put 

that on the record to make it clear. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Do you -- I 

don't have any problem with putting the 

settlement on the record. Do you want an 

order to be generated, or do you just want it 

to be on the record, publish that part of the 

transcript. And I'll do whatever you two 

want 

MR. MORRIS I think it's the 

latter, sir. I don't think we need an order 

Do you? 

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MR. THORNTON; Do we want an 

order, or just put it on the record and the 

transcript will be published? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me suggest 

this. Let's put it on the record, have the 

court reporter generate that part of the 

transcript, get it to my office. I will have 

it sent to both of you. You two sign it. I 

don't necessarily have to sign it. Well, you 

know, you're never going to be in the office 

for the next six months, and you're going to 

China, so --

MR. THORNTON: All right. 

MR. MORRIS: Sir, as far as the 

terms -• 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes 

MR. MORRIS - the terms are that 

the Complainant will- withdraw the complaint 

with prejudice and that each party will pay 

for its own attorneys' fees. 

Is that accurate, Mr. Thornton? 

MR. THORNTON: And the record of--

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JUDGE GOODWIN: That's the whole 

thing? 

MR. MORRIS: That's it. 

MR. THORNTON: That's it. And the 

record of this will be expunged, and it won't 

be used for any other purposes. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes. Cannot be used 

for any purpose. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's let me do 

this. Right. Just so that I understand, the 

agency has opted to withdraw the complaint 

with prejudice. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You're not going 

to object, are you? 

MR. THORNTON: I was thinking 

about it, but no. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Each side will be 

responsible for their own attorneys' fees. 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And the problem is 

stuff is marked for identification , so what 

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I'm going to do is generate an order sealing 

these proceedings, pursuant to the settlement 

agreement. That way, if there's a copy in my 

office, nothing's going to happefi to it unless 

somebody does something, and I'll just make 

sure that everything is sealed. 

MR. THORNTON: Well, the carrier 

is going to want to order a copy of the 

transcript 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. You can 

get a copy of the --

MR. MORRIS: It's parties outside 

of the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. No. Sealing 

it would prevent it from getting into the 

public domain. Does not prevent you or Mr. 

Morris from getting a copy. 

So what I'm going to ask the court 

reporter to do is prepare the transcript in 

due course, get it to my office. 

Mr. Morris, you know how this 

works. Why don't you check with either Mr. 

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1 Liebowitz or Ms, Matthews in whatever time you 

2 feel is appropriate. When you know we have 

3 the --

4 The way-"this works, Mr. Thornton, 

5 is the transcript gets sent to the FAA in 

6 Washington and to my office. I get it. The 

7 office in D.C. gets it. It could be weeks 

8 before Mr. Morris finds out the transcript is 

9 available. But if Mr. Morris will check with 

10 my office, verify we've got it, he then knows 

11 it's in the mail, gives you the opportunity to 

12 order a copy then or now, or get a copy from 

13 Mr. Morris, and you two work that out. And 

14 because we're doing that part of it, there 

15 will at least be an administrative record, 

16 which will -- I will seal pursuant to the 

17 settlement agreement between the parties. 

18 Yes. 

19 MR. THORNTON: Could Mr. Morris 

20 and I approach the bench? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. So we'll go 

22 off the record for this. 

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the record. 

(Discussion held off the record.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll go back on 

Pursuant to a bench conference. 

the -- I'm going to ask the court reporter to 

generate the transcript in due course. At the 

point that it's generated, provide it to Neal 

Gross, who will then provide a copy to the FAA 

and to DOT. Mr. Morris will check with my 

office to see when it's available. Mr. 

Thornton's going to want a copy for his use. 

And to the extent that either of 

the two attorneys agree on what use it would 

be, it can be used. It will not be used in 

any and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr 

Morris -- in any future enforcement actions. 

That's the intent of sealing it. 

MR. MORRIS: That's correct, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: My standard order 

for sealing, you know, applies to the 

attorneys. I mean, obviously paralegals in 

your office can read it, Mr. Thornton. 

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1 Obviously the parties can read it. But I just 

2 want to prevent it from being on -- in the 

3 public domain. 

4 Is there anything else? 

5 MR. MORRIS: I don't think so, sir. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Thornton? 

7 MR. THORNTON: No, sir. • 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let me just 

9 say I did 20 years of trial work, and from 

10 personal experience I can tell you that any 

11 case that settles, I think, is better for the 

12 parties than allowing somebody in a black robe13 to wade through it and come up with an opinion 

14 that the rule of thumb on this side of the 

15 bench is, if they're both unhappy, it's 

16 probably a good opinion. So thank you, 

17 gentlemen. It was a well-tried case, and I 

18 thank you for all your efforts. 

19 And we'll go off the record, and 

2 0 everyone's excused. 

21 (Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the 

22 hearing was concluded.) 

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202-234-4433 

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Page 507 

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Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc, 
Page 514 

sides 423:2 

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Neal R. Gross Sc Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc 
understanding 

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202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
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Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c 
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518 

CERTIFICATE 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

in the matter of: Great Lakes Aviation, Inc. 

Before Hon. Richard Goodwin 

Administrative Law Judge 

Date : March 31, 2010 

Place : Denver, CO 

r^ 

represents the full and complete proceedings of the 

aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to 

typewriting. 

Ciudh 

Carol Dawle 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com