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65–179—PDF 2009

S. HRG. 111–926 

NOMINATIONS OF MIRIAM SAPIRO, 

GEORGE MADISON, AND KIM WALLACE 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON THE

NOMINATIONS OF 

MIRIAM SAPIRO, TO BE DEPUTY U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE, WITH 

THE RANK OF AMBASSADOR; GEORGE MADISON, TO BE GENERAL 

COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY; AND KIM WALLACE, TO 

BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT 

OF THE TREASURY 

JUNE 5, 2009 

( 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Finance 

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE 

MAX BAUCUS, Montana, Chairman 

JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West Virginia 

KENT CONRAD, North Dakota 

JEFF BINGAMAN, New Mexico 

JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts 

BLANCHE L. LINCOLN, Arkansas 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

BILL NELSON, Florida 

ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey 

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware 

CHUCK GRASSLEY, Iowa 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine 

JON KYL, Arizona 

JIM BUNNING, Kentucky 

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho 

PAT ROBERTS, Kansas 

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

JOHN CORNYN, Texas 

RUSSELL SULLIVAN, Staff Director 

KOLAN DAVIS, Republican Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

(II) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Baucus, Hon. Max, a U.S. Senator from Montana, chairman, Committee 

on Finance ............................................................................................................ 1 

Bunning, Hon. Jim, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky ............................................. 3 

ADMINISTRATION NOMINEES 

Sapiro, Miriam, nominated to be Deputy U.S. Trade Representative, with 

the rank of Ambassador, Washington, DC ......................................................... 3 

Madison, George, nominated to be General Counsel, Department of the Treasury, Washington, DC ........................................................................................... 5 

Wallace, Kim, nominated to be Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs, 

Department of the Treasury, Washington, DC .................................................. 7 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL 

Baucus, Hon. Max: 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 21 

Bunning, Hon. Jim: 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 3 

Madison, George: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 23 

Biographical information ................................................................................. 25 

Responses to questions from committee members ......................................... 35 

Sapiro, Miriam: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 3 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 72 

Biographical information ................................................................................. 74 

Responses to questions from committee members ......................................... 88 

Wallace, Kim: 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 110 

Biographical information ................................................................................. 112 

Responses to questions from committee members ......................................... 119 

COMMUNICATION

Strauss, Paul ............................................................................................................ 121 

(III) 

(1) 

NOMINATIONS OF MIRIAM SAPIRO, TO BE 

DEPUTY U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE, 

WITH THE RANK OF AMBASSADOR; GEORGE 

MADISON, TO BE GENERAL COUNSEL, 

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY; AND 

KIM WALLACE, TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY FOR LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, 

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 

FRIDAY, JUNE 5, 2009 

U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, 

Washington, DC. 

The hearing was convened, pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m., in 

room SD–215, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Max Baucus 

(chairman of the committee) presiding. 

Present: Senator Bunning. 

Also present: Democratic Staff: Bill Dauster, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel; Amber Cottle, International Trade Counsel; and Ayesha Khanna, International Trade Counsel. Republican 

Staff: Kolan Davis, Staff Director and Chief Counsel; David Ross, 

International Trade Counsel; and Nick Wyatt, Tax Research Assistant. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MAX BAUCUS, A U.S. SENATOR 

FROM MONTANA, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON FINANCE 

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. 

The essayist Lewis Lapham wrote, ‘‘Leadership consists not in 

degrees of technique, but in traits of character.’’ 

We have before us three nominees whom the President has called 

upon to lead. You have been called to lead during challenging 

times, and it is essential in these challenging times that you lead 

not just with skill, but also with character. 

Ms. Sapiro, the President nominated you to be Deputy U.S. 

Trade Representative. It is essential that you lead by the strength 

of your character as well as the strength of your mind. As Deputy 

USTR, you will help Ambassador Kirk and the President to develop 

a comprehensive trade policy. In doing so, you must find a path 

that leads our country out of this global economic downturn and 

into renewed American competitiveness. You must show our trading partners that we will live up to our international obligations 

and that they must live up to theirs, and you must ensure that 

international trade works for all Americans. 

2 

This will be no easy task, but, Ms. Sapiro, you have the background necessary to accomplish it. You have spent years viewing 

the world through an international prism. During the Clinton administration, you served on the National Security Council and at 

the State Department. You have a strong background in international policy, and I am confident that your character and experience make you ready for this challenge. 

Mr. Madison, the President has nominated you to be General 

Counsel of the Treasury Department. It is essential that you lead 

by the strength of your character, as well as the strength of your 

mind. As General Counsel of the Treasury, you will provide the 

Secretary with legal and policy guidance. You must advise on matters as disparate as banking, tax, and international policy. You will 

help the Treasury Department to navigate through uncharted waters as it takes novel actions to stem the global economic crisis. 

This will be no easy task, but, Mr. Madison, you have the tools 

to accomplish this. You have spent almost 30 years practicing law; 

during that time you have served as a general counsel for two corporations. You have helped financial services companies to establish stringent risk management and corporate compliance practices. 

You have been compensated handsomely for your work. A recent 

Washington Times article noted that you will continue to receive 

bonus payments from your previous employer, TIAA-CREF, during 

your tenure as Treasury’s General Counsel. I understand that you 

have been advised that these payments comply with Treasury’s 

ethical guidelines. 

I also understand that you will recuse yourself from matters that 

may affect TIAA-CREF. I urge you to be vigilant in this matter and 

avoid any hint of conflict of interest. I am confident that your character will guide you well in this regard, and I am confident that 

your experience makes you ready for this challenge. 

Mr. Wallace, the President nominated you to be Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Legislative Affairs. It is essential that 

you lead by the strength of your character, as well as the strength 

of your mind. In this role you must be the bridge between the legislative and the executive branches of government. 

You must keep the Congress well apprised of the Treasury’s 

thinking so that we may be prepared to act and react in these challenging economic times. You must ensure that the Treasury maintains high levels of transparency to Congress and to the American 

people. This will be no easy task, but, Mr. Wallace, I believe you 

will succeed. You spent several years on Capitol Hill. You have 

worked at understanding and analyzing the inner workings of policymaking, as well as its effect on the financial services industry. 

I am confident that your character and experience make you ready 

for this challenge. 

Although our country is in challenging times, I believe each of 

you has the character and leadership to guide the country. I congratulate you on your nominations. I urge you to lead with skill, 

I urge you to lead with character, and I have faith that, with your 

help, this government will lead America back to recovery. 

Senator Grassley, the ranking member, is unable to be here this 

morning, but I would ask Senator Bunning from Kentucky if he 

wishes to make a statement. 

3 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JIM BUNNING, 

A U.S. SENATOR FROM KENTUCKY 

Senator BUNNING. First of all, thank you, Mr. Chairman. You 

speak well for all of our members. 

I just would like to make sure that the witnesses know they are 

welcome. They can, in their statements, tell us how they feel about 

their nomination and their philosophy, their backgrounds, and all 

the things that go into making up a nominee and the choice of a 

nominee. I just want you to know that I will consider all your skills 

and all your experience in weighing my vote one way or the other 

on your confirmation. But I am glad you are here. I welcome your 

statements. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. 

Now we will introduce our witnesses. We have three today. First, 

we will begin with Miriam Sapiro, who has been nominated to be 

Deputy USTR. Next, we will hear from George Madison, nominated 

to be General Counsel with the Treasury Department. Finally, Mr. 

Kim Wallace, who has been nominated to be Assistant Secretary of 

Treasury for Legislative Affairs. 

Thank you all for coming, all three of you. As is our practice, I 

would encourage you to summarize your statements in roughly 5 

minutes. Your full statements will automatically be included in the 

record. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Before each begins, because this is quite an 

honor for each of you to be nominated, and probably confirmed, it 

is customary to introduce your families. We love to see your families here, if you could introduce them. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am here 

with my husband, Stephen Labaton, and our son Max, and our 

daughter Ellie. 

The CHAIRMAN. What is your son’s name? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Max. [Laughter.] 

And it is his real name. [Laughter.] 

The CHAIRMAN. It is mine, too. [Laughter.] 

That is great. Why don’t you all stand? We would like to give you 

all a round of applause. All of you stand up. [Applause.] 

Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF MIRIAM SAPIRO, NOMINATED TO BE DEPUTY 

U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE, WITH THE RANK OF AMBASSADOR, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. SAPIRO. Chairman Baucus, Ranking Member Grassley, and 

members of this distinguished committee, it is a pleasure to appear 

before you today. 

I am honored that President Obama has nominated me for this 

important position. We are facing unprecedented economic and political challenges, but with your continuing support we can develop 

a robust trade agenda that opens up additional markets and that 

translates into better jobs and better lives for America’s working 

families. I want to publicly thank my husband Stephen, and our 

children, Max and Ellie, for their extraordinary support, without 

which I would not be here today. 

4 

I am also grateful to my mother, Gloria, and my late father, Burton, for their guidance and inspiration. Throughout my career in 

government and the private sector, I have seen firsthand how economic growth, fueled by trade, can raise the standard of living for 

Americans and people around the world. 

My interest in trade issues stems from my earliest days at the 

State Department during the Reagan administration, when I 

worked on export controls. My years in the Legal Advisor’s Office 

and on the Secretary of State’s policy planning staff have given me 

a deep understanding of the international arena and the dynamics 

of complex negotiations. 

These experiences have sharpened my ability to resolve difficult 

issues between countries, a skill that I relied upon when I helped 

to negotiate the Dayton Peace Accords that ended the war in Bosnia. These skills will now be useful as we strive to open new markets that can grow our economy and benefit our workers, consistent 

with strong labor and environmental standards. 

Under President Clinton, I moved from the State Department to 

the National Security Council, where I worked on security and economic policies. Later, as Special Assistant to the President for 

Southeast European Stabilization and Reconstruction, I supervised 

U.S. efforts to transform that area into a peaceful democratic region. 

As Chairman of the Interagency Committee that formulated and 

advanced U.S. goals, I worked with USTR and other agencies, 

other governments, and the international financial institutions to 

lay a sound foundation for economic development by increasing investment and trade. 

My work on internet policy and telecommunications issues in the 

private sector has given me direct experience with American companies and workers, fostering innovation and competition around 

the globe. I know the challenges they face, including nontariff barriers in the technology sector and the continuing theft of billions 

of dollars of intellectual property each year. 

As a small business owner, I have a special affinity for the many 

small and medium enterprises that form the backbone of our export industry. These businesses and their workers drive our economy and deserve a seat at the trade table. Trade has been fundamental to U.S. economic success. Last year, trade in goods and 

services was 30 percent of GDP, and exports were 13 percent of the 

U.S. economy. Nearly half of the growth in our GDP over the last 

3 years was from exports. We know trade can play a key role in 

America’s economic recovery. 

To achieve this, we need to look for new opportunities to boost 

our exports, while ensuring that the benefits of trade are enjoyed 

more broadly across America. We must also enforce our agreements 

with other countries more strictly. Our trading partners, too, must 

play by the rules and treat our products and our workers fairly. 

We are fortunate that USTR has an outstanding leader in Ambassador Kirk, and an exceptional career staff to help our manufacturers, farmers, ranchers, and service providers, large and small, 

succeed. By working with all stakeholders, we can establish a clear 

domestic consensus on the importance of trade that can lead to 

progress on a range of issues and, with strong bipartisan support 

5 

for trade that can benefit all Americans, we can identify new mechanisms with the greatest promise to broaden market access and 

strengthen enforcement. 

If confirmed, I look forward to working closely with the members 

of this committee to meet these challenges. Thank you for your consideration. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Ms. Sapiro, very much. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Sapiro appears in the appendix.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Madison? 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. And we would like you, too, to introduce family. 

Mr. MADISON. I would like to do that. I have with me my eldest 

daughter, Kristin, who is here. Stand up. 

The CHAIRMAN. Kristin? Why don’t you stand, Kristin? 

Mr. MADISON. And my youngest daughter, Jillian. 

The CHAIRMAN. Jillian. 

Mr. MADISON. Kristin’s boyfriend, Frank. 

The CHAIRMAN. Frank. [Laughter.] 

Mr. MADISON. And at the other end of the table is my uncle and 

aunt, John and Avril Madison. 

The CHAIRMAN. Great. 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Nice to meet you all. [Applause.] 

STATEMENT OF GEORGE MADISON, NOMINATED TO BE GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you, Chairman Baucus and Senator 

Bunning, for the opportunity to appear before you in connection 

with my nomination to be the General Counsel of the Department 

of the Treasury. 

I am deeply honored to be President Obama’s nominee for this 

position, and I am sincerely grateful to Secretary Geithner for recommending me to the President. 

Chairman Baucus, I wanted to just mention that my oldest 

daughter is in school at Broward College-Nova University in Florida, and my youngest daughter, who just graduated from the 

Lawrenceville School outside of Princeton, NJ, is on her way to 

Stanford, which is a school that I think you are familiar with. 

The CHAIRMAN. Wise choice. [Laughter.] 

Mr. MADISON. My girls have survived a series of personal challenges during the last 8 years following the death of their mom. 

They have my deep admiration and respect for how they faced their 

loss over these years. They represent their mom well. So, I just 

wanted to say that publicly. 

Mr. Chairman, I welcome this opportunity, if confirmed, to serve 

our country and contribute whatever I can to the President’s and 

Secretary Geithner’s efforts to stabilize the financial system and reinvigorate the economy. 

Public service is in the blood of my family, and I beg your indulgence for a minute to explain why. While I was raised in Jersey 

City, NJ and now reside in Greenwich, I am from an old Washington, DC family who imbued in all of us the importance of, and 

responsibility to give back to our communities and to our country. 

6 

As a reminder to my children and for your information, I will relate two quick stories. First, my grandmother’s grandfather, Gabriel Coakley, along with a couple of other freed slaves, initiated 

a fundraising campaign in the 1860s to build the first house of worship and school for black Catholics in the District. 

Mr. Coakley obtained permission from then-President Abraham 

Lincoln to hold what was called a Strawberry Festival on the front 

lawn of the White House on July 4, 1864. With the funds they 

raised and other funds, Mr. Coakley founded St. Augustine’s Catholic Church and School, which recently celebrated its 150th anniversary. 

The second story is about my grandmother herself, Dr. Lena F. 

Edwards, who became a medical doctor in the 1920s. After nearly 

40 years of providing health services to minority communities in 

DC and in New Jersey, in 1961 she built and staffed a 25-bed hospital in Hereford, TX for Mexican migrant workers. In 1965, President Lyndon Baines Johnson awarded her with the Medal of Freedom in recognition of her work in Texas. 

The presentation was held in the Blue Room at the White House, 

and other honorees included Leontyne Price, Father Hesburgh, 

Carl Sandberg, John Steinbeck, and Aaron Copland, to name a few. 

The important lessons of these stories and others help explain why, 

for me, public service is both a privilege and an obligation. 

As you know, as General Counsel at Treasury we supervise a 

staff of nearly 2,000 attorneys and 1,600 support staff. By statute, 

the General Counsel is a chief legal officer of the department who 

provides legal advice and counsel to the Secretary, the Deputy Secretary, the Under Secretaries, and other senior officials on legal 

issues that range from department management, to government financial operations, to the public debt, to revenue and customs 

laws, to the international and domestic economic monetary and financial affairs, to law enforcement and the financial war on terror, 

to the ethics programs, to legal claims and legislative reports to 

Congress and OMB. 

In addition to all of that, and at this time in history, if confirmed, I would welcome the opportunity to offer my legal perspectives to the successful implementation of the programs initiated by 

Congress, the President, and the Secretary to stabilize the financial 

system and reinvigorate our economy. 

It is an important and immensely rewarding role at a critical 

time in our history, and I pledge to you my thoughtful, diligent, 

and dedicated service, should the Senate choose to confirm me. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Madison, very, very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Madison appears in the appendix.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wallace? 

Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. And your family? 

Mr. WALLACE. I would like to introduce my wife, Robin Vink, and 

our children, Harrison, 17, and Ava, 15, are finishing the year 

end—happily finishing—school activities, otherwise they would be 

here. 

I would also like to acknowledge my mother. 

7 

The CHAIRMAN. Why doesn’t your wife stand? Her name, again? 

Mr. WALLACE. Robin Vink, of New York. 

The CHAIRMAN. Robin. [Applause.] 

Mr. WALLACE. I would also like to acknowledge my parents, 

Frank Wallace, who passed 8 years ago, and my mother, Etta Wallace, who still lives in San Antonio and is, thankfully, very heathy. 

And my mother-in-law, Barbara Vink. All of them have been 

sources of great pride and inspiration to me, and continue to be. 

STATEMENT OF KIM WALLACE, NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY FOR LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF 

THE TREASURY, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. WALLACE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for being here, and 

Senator Bunning, and other members of the committee who were 

not able to make it. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before 

you. 

I am honored to have been nominated by President Obama to 

serve as Treasury Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs. I am 

also grateful to Secretary Geithner for recommending me to the 

President. 

If approved by this committee and confirmed by the Senate, I 

know that their constant support and the support of my broader 

family will guide and continue to enlighten my thoughts and actions as I do all I can to help President Obama and Secretary 

Geithner revitalize the economy and stabilize our financial markets. 

Senators, as you know, the Treasury Department and this committee work closely together on a range of important topics. The 

success of the priorities of this Congress and of the administration 

on crucial issues facing our Nation require a seamless communication between committee members, staff, and Treasury officials. If 

confirmed, I pledge to you my unwavering attention to ensuring 

that this committee and the Treasury Department have regular 

and open contact. If confirmed by the Senate, I would be honored 

to begin my third phase of public service. 

As a graduate of the then Government Program at the University of Texas at Austin, then-Senator, now U.S. Congressman Lloyd 

Doggett hired me as a junior analyst. I also had the pleasure of 

working in the Texas Office of State-Federal Relations, responsible 

for communicating Federal policy developments in the areas of 

banking, employment, and education to relevant State agencies and 

legislators. 

My Federal Government service began in 1986 as the Function 

500 analyst for the Senate Budget Committee, then chaired by 

Lawton Chiles. I departed public service in 1994, after working almost 5 years for then-Senator Majority Leader George J. Mitchell 

as a member of his fiscal policy staff. 

My State and Federal public service taught me the importance 

of translating policy actions to various constituencies who in one 

way or another would be affected by the decisions of elected officials. If confirmed, I look forward to applying these lessons and 

those learned as a private sector manager of research teams to the 

role for which you are considering me. 

8 

The challenges and opportunities facing our country will test policymakers to design and implement ideas that address near-term 

conditions, but to do so in a manner that has enduring, constructive implications for generations to come. I look forward to contributing to this work should the Senate choose to confirm me. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Wallace, very much. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Wallace appears in the appendix.] 

The CHAIRMAN. I have several questions I must ask all three of 

you. These are general questions. I would like you to indicate your 

agreement or disagreement with each. 

First, is there anything that you are aware of in your background 

that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office 

to which you have been nominated? 

Ms. Sapiro? 

Ms. SAPIRO. No, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Madison? 

Mr. MADISON. No, Senator. 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wallace? 

Mr. WALLACE. No, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Do you know of any reason, personal or otherwise, that would in 

any way prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been nominated? 

Ms. SAPIRO. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MADISON. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WALLACE. No, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Do you agree, without reservation, to respond to any reasonable 

summons to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress, if you are confirmed? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MADISON. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. WALLACE. I do. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

I will begin with you, Ms. Sapiro. At a recent panel FTA hearing, 

the administration announced it is developing a new trade policy 

framework. To my knowledge, the administration has not yet consulted with the Congress, let alone this committee, on that trade 

policy framework. It was quite a surprise frankly. It was a shot out 

of the blue. We have been working on trying to pass the Colombia 

FTA, as well as the Panama FTA, and creating FTAs a little further down the road. 

But while we are working on those free trade agreements, suddenly out of the blue, we have testimony here that the administration is working on a trade policy framework. Whatever that means, 

I have no idea, but we did not hear about it until then. 

Now recently we see in news reports that the administration will 

not move the Panama FTA forward until health care reform passes 

the House and the Senate. Nobody in the administration consulted 

us about that. The first time we had heard about that, we read 

about it in newspaper articles. Then we hear the same is basically 

true with respect to, as I said, the trade policy framework. 

9 

So I guess I have several questions to ask you. You are not confirmed yet, but you have been talking to the administration a lot. 

What is going on here? Are those reports true or not true? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that important question. I share your interest in seeing the Panama FTA and the Colombia FTA secure congressional approval. I understand that the 

President would like to outline a new framework for trade that 

imbeds it in his overall economic policy. I believe that this step can 

be helpful in securing the necessary bipartisan support that is required to complete these agreements. 

I know, with respect to both agreements, there are outstanding 

issues, particularly with respect to labor rights. USTR is working 

with their counterparts in both countries to address those questions. I do believe strongly about the importance of close consultation and partnership with the Congress on these issues, and with 

this committee. I believe that our trade policy is most successful 

when we have a good working relationship. If I am confirmed, I 

pledge to consult with you as much as you would like in order to 

move these issues forward. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, apart from your participation, do you think 

that this Congress, reading about these developments in the press 

and not being told by the administration in advance, is that close 

consultation? Would you regard that as close consultation? 

Ms. SAPIRO. I believe that this consultation is important. I know 

USTR has been consulting with your staff on various elements related to both agreements, and if I am confirmed I will work on that 

consultation process and make sure that it is working smoothly 

and satisfies you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Can you assure us that we will hear from you 

before we read about it in the press, the developments with respect 

to any of the FTAs, or any trade matter? 

Ms. SAPIRO. We have an active and free press, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. We also have a very concerned Congress. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. As you know, under the Constitution, it is Congress that sets trade policy. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. Not the administration. It is Congress that sets 

trade policy. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I am aware that it is Congress 

that has the authority to regulate commerce with foreign nations 

and that the USTR derives its authority from the Congress. As I 

said, I fully intend to consult closely with you and with your staff 

to make sure that we have a good working relationship. 

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of policy, do you think it is a good 

idea that we are told first before we read about it in the press? Do 

you think that is a good method of operation? Do you think that 

is good? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes. I would prefer—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that is preferable? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I do want to consult closely with 

you. I would rather, certainly, you raise any questions you have 

with me directly. 

10 

The CHAIRMAN. How am I supposed to raise them if I read about 

them in the press? I would like you to talk to me, first. Can you 

do that? 

Ms. SAPIRO. I will talk to you first about these issues, Mr. Chairman, before I speak to the press. 

The CHAIRMAN. I think you got the message. [Laughter.] 

It is very clear to me that things work a lot better when we talk 

with each other in advance. For example, Senator Grassley and I, 

oh, gosh, 8 years ago, instituted a policy where we meet every week 

for about an hour, hour and a half. We lock it in, 5 o’clock every 

Tuesday, just to go over matters that pertain to this committee, to 

minimize misunderstandings, enhance communication, et cetera. It 

is amazing. 

Pretty soon, our trade staffs started talking to each other. Then 

our health staffs started talking to each other. Then our tax staffs 

started talking to each other. If you were a fly on the wall, you 

would think it was one meeting, it has worked so well. But it is 

because we have locked-in a regular process where we talk with 

each other. There are no surprises, him surprising me or me surprising him. I am trying to think of some way we could do the 

same with USTR, as well as with Treasury, have a periodic, lockedin, set time where we could just sit down and go over things. It 

makes a huge difference. 

I have done the same with Chairman Rangel over in the House, 

the same with Congressman Waxman, the same with Secretary 

Summers, with whom I talked weekly, Secretary Geithner, Peter 

Orszag, Larry Summers. We lock in a quarterly meeting. Excuse 

me—a monthly meeting. I am just trying to figure out some way 

to encourage you to tell us a little more in advance, and we tell 

you, too. I am talking about USTR now, and not necessarily you 

personally, but I would like you to be thinking about it and send 

back to Ambassador Kirk my hope that we could work out some 

way to regularize meetings like this so that we could minimize misunderstandings and avoid surprises. 

Ms. SAPIRO. I will carry that message back, Mr. Chairman. I 

think it is a terrific idea. I am a firm advocate of putting things 

like that on the calendar on a regular basis so that day-to-day 

issues do not detract from the overall focus on the importance of 

consultation with you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. My time is up, way up. 

Senator BUNNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Madison, I have so many questions for you that I may take 

all my time for the first time around with you. 

It seems obvious that the reason the Fed and the FDIC are being 

used for the Public-Private Investment Program is to use their existing authorities to leverage TARP money so Treasury does not 

have to ask Congress for the legal authority for more money. 

If a situation like that were to come up in the future, would you 

advise against an end-run around Congress, or would you find a 

way to get around restrictions on Treasury’s legal authority? 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you for the question, Senator. It is obviously very important that I make sure that the Treasury is in full 

compliance with the laws of this country that have been promulgated by Congress. In the Public-Private Partnership, I have the 

11 

sense—and I have only been at Treasury for 5 weeks, myself—that 

it was put together with the Federal Reserve as a way of providing 

liquidity in markets with the market participants, which include 

the banks, to regulate it by the Federal Reserve using various 

kinds of vehicles that the Federal Reserve established. 

Senator BUNNING. But they had not used them since 1931, some 

of those vehicles. 

Mr. MADISON. I think that these times required extraordinary 

acts to provide financial stability to the economy and, in fact, all 

of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act is an extraordinary 

act. But I think the main point was that both Treasury, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC, and the other agencies had to work together to come up with an effective program that would stem the 

concerns at the time and stabilize the economy. 

As the regulator of the banking institutions that were involved 

and the principal supervisor, I believe it was appropriate for the 

Federal Reserve to do that, and funds were provided to that vehicle 

from Treasury under the PPIP program. So I do not see it as an 

end-run around Congress. It sounds to me—— 

Senator BUNNING. Let me ask you a direct question. 

Mr. MADISON. Sure. 

Senator BUNNING. Do you think, if you came back for TARP 3, 

you would get any money from Congress? 

Mr. MADISON. I have heard from Secretary Geithner, in his appearances before Congress and in other places, that we are not 

looking for more money. 

Senator BUNNING. I know that. No. But right now. 

Mr. MADISON. We think that we have enough. 

Senator BUNNING. As long as the Fed has a printing press, you 

have enough. 

Mr. MADISON. Senator, as I said, I think it is important that the 

Federal Reserve supervise its institutions in the way that is prudential through their own governance. Obviously Treasury has to 

work with the Federal Reserve. 

Senator BUNNING. Yes. Just so they do not become a partner. 

Mr. MADISON. Yes. I understand. 

Senator BUNNING. In other words, part of the Treasury. We want 

to make sure that the Fed stays separate. 

Mr. MADISON. They are separate. They are separate institutions. 

Senator BUNNING. The second question. During your 30 years of 

corporate practice, have you ever experienced a situation where a 

person or entity has an 80-percent ownership stake in a company 

without the ability to control the business operation of that company? 

Mr. MADISON. Senator, my experience is that the equity owner 

uses the corporate governance mechanisms that the laws of the 

country allow. 

Senator BUNNING. What if they are not being followed? 

Mr. MADISON. Well, what I mean by that is establishing a board 

of directors that has fiduciary duties to the shareholders—all the 

shareholders—that is responsible for supervising the management 

of that entity, and then shareholders will often back off and allow 

the management—— 

Senator BUNNING. Before my time runs out I want to add to that. 

12 

Mr. MADISON. Good. 

Senator BUNNING. Can you think of any reason the government 

could not require of those people you spoke of, the board and the 

president of AIG, given the taxpayers’ 80-percent stake in that 

business, a little closer scrutiny and more ability to run that company a little more efficiently? 

Mr. MADISON. Certainly through the exercise of their voting 

power, the government can put in place the right board that will 

govern AIG, and any other entity, appropriately. If that board is 

not doing what it needs to do, then the mechanism is to have a 

shareholder vote and to replace the board. 

Senator BUNNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is up. 

The CHAIRMAN. If you have more questions, go ahead. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, I have lots more. 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Go ahead. 

Senator BUNNING. All right. 

The same, for Mr. Madison. 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you. 

Senator BUNNING. When banks repay TARP funds, would you advise Treasury that the best course of action would be, recycle the 

payments into TARP funding for another institution, or would you 

advise Treasury that the repayment should be used to repay taxpayers and reduce our massive Federal deficits? 

Mr. MADISON. Senator, I think—and I know, in fact—what happens is that repayments on investments of TARP funds actually go 

to the public fund to reduce—they go into the Treasury’s public 

fund. They are not recycled. 

Senator BUNNING. In other words, they cannot lend them back 

out to someone else. 

Mr. MADISON. They do not recycle the funds, is my understanding. Under EESA, there is a cap on the amount of funds that 

are available, and that is $700 billion at any one time outstanding. 

So, when there are repayments on TARP investments, that creates 

more headroom under that $700-billion cap that allows for additional investments to be made. So it is not a recycling of funds that 

come in from one entity that is repaying and going out to another. 

Those funds, as repaid, go into the general fund. That creates—— 

Senator BUNNING. You are talking about the excess? 

Mr. MADISON. I am saying—— 

Senator BUNNING. Are you talking about the return of the TARP 

funds? 

Mr. MADISON. I am saying that, as TARP funds are returned, 

they go to the general fund of the Treasury. 

Senator BUNNING. But you just then said that they could be used 

for other entities. 

Mr. MADISON. No. What I said, Senator, was that that creates 

room within the cap—— 

Senator BUNNING. Yes. Under the $700 billion. 

Mr. MADISON [continuing.] Under the $700 billion for additional 

investments to be made at any one time. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, that is evading my question, but that is 

actually exactly the question I ask, whether the funds should be 

held to reduce the deficit or whether they should be expended for 

other investments under TARP. 

13 

Mr. MADISON. And in fact, what happens is the repayments come 

in and they go to the general fund of the Treasury. 

Senator BUNNING. We are going to have a lot of repayments very 

shortly from our banks. 

Mr. MADISON. Exactly. 

Senator BUNNING. And we were interested in what happens to 

that money. 

Mr. MADISON. It goes into the general fund of the Treasury, and that creates more headroom under the $700 billion. 

Senator BUNNING. Thank you. 

What concerns do you personally have about how TARP was implemented, especially in light of the way it was sold to Congress? 

In other words, it was sold as a way to remove toxic securities, and 

1 week later the author and the Secretary of Treasury and the 

head of the Federal Reserve did what we call a bait-and-switch and 

moved it to the Wall Street bankers and other people on Wall 

Street. They were not necessarily banks, but they were investment 

companies. They used that money, not to remove the toxic securities, which still are not removed, but to shore up the situation with 

the bankers and with the Wall Street firms. So how would you 

have sold TARP if you came to me? 

Mr. MADISON. Senator, as you know, I have only been at Treasury for 5 weeks, so it is hard for me to tell you what happened before. 

Senator BUNNING. You know exactly what happened before. 

Mr. MADISON. What I do know is this, that the purpose of it was 

to help stabilize the economy, and it was done in a number of different ways, under a number of different programs. So, providing 

capital to financial institutions that needed capital so that they 

would start lending again, other programs in which the point was 

to buy some of the toxic assets, as you say, programs for small 

business, and other programs for home ownership and refinancing 

and modifications. So, there were multiple purposes that had to do 

with credit and capital and liquidity in the system to get the economy going again. So I think it was not just limited to toxic assets. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, that is the way it was sold. That is the 

way it was sold to the Congress. I was here when they sold it. 

Just to follow up on that last answer, TARP funding was recently 

approved for insurance companies, but a Treasury spokesman said 

that these companies ‘‘posed no systemic risk.’’ Would you advise 

Treasury to use TARP funding to prop up businesses, including 

autos, insurance, and others that pose no systemic risk? 

Mr. MADISON. Senator, I think, to your direct question about 

TARP funds being provided to insurance companies, these are insurance companies that had bank holding companies in their structure. 

Senator BUNNING. That is what we heard about AIG, too. 

Mr. MADISON. And so the funding was provided to participants 

in the market system to make sure that they had capital and liquidity to be able to continue in their operations so that the market system would not be affected, either in the insurance world, the 

banking world, or any of the other components of the financial system. So, these are just different aspects and sectors in the market 

in which liquidity and capital had to be provided. 

14 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you, Senator. 

Mr. Madison, the Washington Times ran an article noting that 

you will receive about $3 million in bonus payments from TIAACREF, and these bonus payments will be paid out during the years 

2010 through 2012. I understand Treasury’s Ethics Office has stated you may receive the bonus payments, so long as you recuse 

yourself from any activities that might benefit TIAA-CREF. Is that 

correct? 

Mr. MADISON. Yes, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. And do you commit to me that you will take all 

steps necessary to avoid any conflict of interest? 

Mr. MADISON. Absolutely, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. And all steps to avoid taking any apparent conflict of interest? 

Mr. MADISON. Absolutely. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Because if you do not, the negative 

consequences are going to be profound. 

Mr. MADISON. Ethics is the currency for which my practice and 

career has been run over the last 30 years, so it is hugely important to me, too. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is good to hear. 

This committee had a hearing in September of 2007 about how 

banks improperly froze and garnished Social Security and other 

benefits; that is, Social Security checks and other payments made 

by the Federal Government to beneficiaries and recipients who had 

those funds in bank accounts, and that debt collectors would garnish those payments. 

Many people, senior citizens, with $250, $300, $400 in their bank 

account, had no idea that those payments were garnished with the 

assistance of the banks. We have not yet received regulations from 

Treasury to solve that problem, because they should not be garnishing in that way. That hearing was back in September of 2007. 

We are coming on close to 2 years now. By what date can you assure me that Treasury will have those regulations promulgated? 

Mr. MADISON. Mr. Chairman, it is an important question. It is 

also a thorny issue because, as I understand it—and I have not had 

a chance to dig into this, and I promise you that I will—the regulations really that need to be issued are by the Social Security Administration. Treasury has to work with the Social Security Administration and other agencies that would provide those regulations. 

My sense of the delay is in that process that is going on. 

So what we can do is sit with the Social Security Administration 

and make sure that they are focused, and we are focused, on the 

issue so that we can deal with the problem. It is an important 

problem, garnishment of Federal benefit payments, obviously because people need those payments. 

The CHAIRMAN. So you will commit to get that interagency process up and operating? 

Mr. MADISON. Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. And by what date can I expect to hear a concrete, positive result? 

15 

Mr. MADISON. Mr. Chairman, not knowing much about the process myself, it is awfully hard for me to give a particular date. 

The CHAIRMAN. What sounds like a reasonable period of time, 

just off the top of your head? You have been around a while. What 

do you think? 

Mr. MADISON. Six months. 

The CHAIRMAN. All right. It is a deal. We will ask you to report 

back within 6 months. 

Mr. MADISON. And I will report back in 6 months. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. 

Ms. Sapiro, I am a little concerned about Doha negotiations. I am 

a little bit concerned that the administration may want to reach an 

agreement just for the sake of reaching an agreement. Mr. Pascal 

Lamy, the general director of Doha, would very much like an agreement. He is going around the world, talking to countries, developing countries, developed countries, et cetera. He is trying to put 

a deal together. 

It is my concern that the deal that is on the table so far is one 

that does not give sufficient access to American producers, agriculture producers overseas, let alone American manufacturers’ access overseas to foreign markets. It is one that asks a significant 

sacrifice in terms of support payments from the U.S. farmers and 

ranchers, especially our farmers. 

Have you had a chance to kind of look at that proposal that is 

on the table? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have done some thinking about Doha. Obviously, if I am confirmed, it is an issue that 

I will spend a lot more time thinking about and talking to you 

about. 

I do share your concern. I know there is pressure now on the 

United States to accept what has already been discussed in Geneva. My concern is that what is currently on the table would not 

yield significant benefits to American workers, farmers, and ranchers. It is clear what we would have to give, but it is not clear what 

we would get. As you have said, Mr. Chairman, no deal is better 

than a bad deal. I would like to work hard to try to identify what 

a good deal would be and whether we can get there with our trading partners. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I appreciate hearing that. That is refreshing. It is encouraging. I thank you and would encourage you 

to work diligently, clearly, to try to get a deal, but one that is in 

the United States’ best interests. I do think that the more we expand trade the better, so long as we are getting a fair deal. I appreciate your efforts in that regard. 

With respect to Colombia, there are some who believe that Colombia must go farther to address labor violence in order to get an 

agreement, let alone this problem we now have of a framework 

that seems to be getting in the way, that is, development of a policy framework which seems to be getting in the way of both Panama and Colombia. 

But can I count on you for developing benchmarks in cooperation 

with Colombian key stakeholders, that is, addressing not only labor 

violence, but also the environmental provisions in the framework 

that was put together with respect to, I think it was—what country 

16 

was that? Not Panama. I have forgotten which other country it 

was. We developed a framework, but it applied to Colombia as well 

as to Panama. 

Ms. SAPIRO. If I am confirmed, Mr. Chairman, I will work hard 

to try to bring that agreement forward and create the bipartisan 

support that is necessary by addressing labor issues, particularly 

the violence and the impunity from prosecution question. 

The CHAIRMAN. Because that is a problem. I think that has to 

be addressed even more. I think President Uribe has done a terrific 

job. I think he is a great President for Colombia. But in order to 

get it passed, I think it is also necessary to, regrettably from certain points of view, but positively from other points of view, for Colombia to address labor violence even more than it already has. 

Ms. SAPIRO. I know that Ambassador Kirk is engaging in an outreach process right now with stakeholders and with this committee 

to determine steps that the Colombian government should take in 

order to help create the bipartisan support that we need. 

The CHAIRMAN. I also want to put on your radar screen the Canadian Softwood Lumber Agreement, right there in the middle of 

your computer screen, right there so you see it every day. 

Ms. SAPIRO. An ‘‘S,’’ an ‘‘L,’’ and an ‘‘A.’’ 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Exactly. So it is enforced and you work vigorously to ensure that it is enforced, because those Canadians, they 

are pretty clever. [Laughter.] 

They figure out ways to get around it, which we do not want 

them to do. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for raising that very important issue. 

I was very pleased that the United States won in the arbitration 

recently. When it came time for enforcement, Ambassador Kirk 

took a clear step in insisting that the arbitral award be honored. 

When the Canadian government made an insufficient offer of a 

remedy, it was rejected and instead Ambassador Kirk imposed a 

10-percent ad valorem duty on exports of softwood lumber from 

those provinces. I think that was the right thing to do, and it also 

sends an important signal to our trading partners around the world 

that we are serious about enforcement. So, yes, Mr. Chairman, I 

will keep an eye on that agreement, if I am confirmed. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you. 

Mr. Wallace, the main point with you—my time has expired—is 

just very brief. That is consultation with Congress. You are the 

man. You make sure that you tell us what is going on with Treasury. I mean, that is going to be your job. I think I will set up some 

mechanism where, on a periodic basis, you are talking to us, maybe 

my Staff Director, someone like that. I do not know if it will be 

once a week or every other week, but something so we are prepared 

to ask each other questions and tell each other, really, what is 

going on. 

More than anything else, it is just to develop trust. After you get 

to know somebody after a period of time, you start to trust that 

person a little bit more. That is the goal here, it’s true. We just 

need a little more trust, and that might be a way to do it. But in 

the meantime, I encourage you just to bend over backwards and 

tell us. The fault should be, tell them. Tell them what is going on 

17 

down there, especially a couple of key people who really have jurisdiction over these matters, because we are good people. We do not 

go out and blab. We want to work with you. Two heads are generally better than one, so I urge you to work with us. 

Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Chairman, as I said in my remarks, I am committed to working with you and all members of the staff and the 

committee. I am getting to know Russ, having been around him for 

a few years now. I have the great fortune of knowing a few members of your staff, some going back as far as the mid-1980s. The 

issue of trust is really not an issue, that has been established. As 

I said, a process convenient to your staff and the staff of both sides 

of the committee that keeps you well abreast of what is going on 

inside the Treasury Department is in your interests, and obviously 

in our interests. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. But there have been some developments where we, again, do not know about matters until we 

read about them in the press. That is, Treasury matters that directly affect this committee. That has happened already in the 

past. 

Mr. WALLACE. It is regrettable, Mr. Chairman, that that is true 

for me as well. I have discussed within the building a process that 

seeks to mitigate those mistakes, as some of the people on the 

panel have mentioned. In Washington, DC it is impossible to give 

an ironclad commitment that there will not be leaks that some of 

us do not know about beforehand, but in terms of what goes on inside of Treasury, I will do everything possible to make sure you are 

not surprised by what you read in the newspaper. 

The CHAIRMAN. Although I will say this. I think this administration has done a better job than any other I can think of for keeping 

things in-house and not a lot of leaks. That is good. That is good. 

But in so stating, then it is an opportunity to tell us, at least on 

matters that are relevant to us—and we will keep it to ourselves. 

We will just work with you. 

But if we have a heads-up, it gets back to trust again. You have 

a better likelihood of giving us something where we get a headsup in this administration compared with others, because at least 

this administration has a better reputation so far of keeping things 

in-house and not allowing its top people to blab as much as some 

have in other administrations. 

Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Chairman, in my view that custom at Treasury, although it is only 5 months old, is owed entirely to the loyalty 

most of us feel—almost all of us feel—to Secretary Geithner, for 

various reasons. As we continue to work hard to protect a no-leak 

policy, I also pledge to you that we will establish a system where 

neither you, nor your staff, nor members of the committee will be 

surprised by policy pronouncements that come out in the media. 

We will talk to you beforehand. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that. And I have the highest regard 

for Secretary Geithner. In fact, when his name was being considered, I called up the President and said, hey, Tim Geithner is your 

man. He is the one whom you should name to be Treasury Secretary. My confidence in him goes up every time I see him or talk 

to him. You have a great boss there, you have a great team there, 

18 

and you are part of that great team, or will be. I look forward to 

working with you. 

Mr. WALLACE. Thank you, Senator. 

The CHAIRMAN. Both of you. 

Mr. MADISON. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. And you, Ms. Sapiro, too. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. And also, give my best to Demetrios. 

Ms. SAPIRO. I certainly will. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is an inside joke. Demetrios used to work 

for us, and now he is at the USTR. 

Senator BUNNING. I have one more question for Ms. Sapiro. 

I wanted to ask you, as the chairman has about lumber, about 

bananas and the trade enforcement cases. We need to turn the 

countless wins that we have had in the WTO into actual relief that 

will stop the European community’s illegal actions. Even with five 

wins in the WTO and one past settlement, the European community has spent the last decade coming up with new ways to accomplish the same illegal trade policies. 

Will you work to achieve a new banana settlement that opens up 

the European markets, prevents new illegal policies, and preserves 

the rights of U.S. companies in the case that the illegal measures 

return? 

Ms. SAPIRO. Senator, I pledge to do that. I have to tell you that, 

when I began my briefings with the USTR staff, one of the first 

questions I asked them was, what about bananas? The reason is, 

I recall this dispute from when I worked at the State Department 

and the National Security Council in the 1990s. 

Senator BUNNING. I recall it from when I sat on the Ways and 

Means Committee, which was 12, 13 years ago. So it was occurring 

then. After we win, the enforcement does not take place. That is 

what I want to make sure that you are aware of. 

Ms. SAPIRO. Yes. I raised this issue for the very reason you mentioned: it has been on the books for too long. I would very much 

like to see progress. I understand that the Europeans have been 

speaking with the Latin American countries involved, and hopefully there will be developments there soon. But I do support us 

getting engaged, at any rate, now because too much time has 

passed. I would like to work with you and with the stakeholders 

in trying to reach a solution. 

Senator BUNNING. Well, if we keep hearing from the stakeholders 

that we are not getting results, I am going to keep coming back to 

you, believe me, because I have some stakeholders that are located 

around my State and they are highly upset about, if you go to the 

WTO and you win, you do not get any enforcement. So I am hoping 

that you will be doing a better job in enforcing our wins in the 

WTO. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. 

I have no further questions. I thank all of you very, very much. 

I wish you good luck. It is a great sacrifice you are undertaking, 

a great sacrifice for your families, too, because you are not going 

to be seeing very much of them. Thank you, all of you, you and 

19 

your families, for your dedication and your service to our country. 

I look forward to working with you. 

The hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:07 a.m., the hearing was concluded.] 

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