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EXAMINING BLM PUBLIC LANDS LEASING 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

THE INTERIOR 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT 

AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

MARCH 23, 2016 

Serial No. 114–110 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

http://www.house.gov/reform 


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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM 

JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman 

JOHN L. MICA, Florida 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

JIM JORDAN, Ohio 

TIM WALBERG, Michigan 

JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

SCOTT DESJARLAIS, Tennessee 

TREY GOWDY, South Carolina 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

RON DESANTIS, Florida 

MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina 

KEN BUCK, Colorado 

MARK WALKER, North Carolina 

ROD BLUM, Iowa 

JODY B. HICE, Georgia 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

EARL L. ‘‘BUDDY’’ CARTER, Georgia 

GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 

WILL HURD, Texas 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland, Ranking 

Minority Member 

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri 

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

TED LIEU, California 

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 

MARK DESAULNIER, California 

BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania 

PETER WELCH, Vermont 

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico 

JENNIFER HEMINGWAY, Staff Director 

DAVID RAPALLO, Minority Staff Director 

WILLIAM MCGRATH, Interior Subcommittee Staff Director 

SHARON CASEY, Deputy Chief Clerk 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE INTERIOR

CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming, Chairman 

PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

KEN BUCK, Colorado, Vice Chair 

STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma 

GARY J. PALMER, Alabama 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan, Ranking 

Minority Member 

MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania 

STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands 


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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on March 23, 2016 ............................................................................ 1 

WITNESSES 

The Hon. Neil Kornze, Director, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Department of the Interior 

Oral Statement ................................................................................................. 2 

Written Statement ............................................................................................ 5 

APPENDIX 

RESPONSE from Director Kornze-BLM to Chairman Lummis QFRs ............... 22 


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EXAMINING BLM PUBLIC LANDS LEASING 

Wednesday, March 23, 2016 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE INTERIOR, 

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, 

Washington, D.C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:15 a.m., in Room 

2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Cynthia M. Lummis 

[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Lummis, Gosar, Buck, Palmer, Lawrence, and Plaskett. 

Mr. GOSAR. The Subcommittee on Interior will come to order. 

Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any 

time. I’m going to introduce myself for an introductory statement. 

Good morning. Today the Subcommittee on the Interior will examine the Bureau of Land Management’s recent difficulties with oil 

and gas lease sales. The Mineral Leasing Act requires the BLM to 

hold quarterly lease sales for oil and natural gas in States where 

lands are available for leasing, but it has had several lease sales 

canceled either due to weather or lack of space. 

Congress has already provided BLM authorization to conduct online auctions instead of in-person sales, through language included 

in the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act. The Secretary was 

given the authority to conduct on-shore lease sales through Internet-based bidding methods. BLM has already selected a vendor and 

conducted a pilot on lease sales auction in 2009 when it was previously given authorization to do so through the fiscal year 2008 

Consolidated Appropriations Act. 

We have a video clip of some of the folks who the BLM want to 

ensure gets a chance to bid on these leases. Can we play the video? 

[video shown.] 

Mr. GOSAR. That is folks pretending to be hit by a car in an effort to disrupt a lease sale in Lakewood, Colorado. This is just 

plain crazy. To help us understand what is going on with this problem and other leasing issues at the BLM like the coal lease sale 

moratorium, Director Neil Kornze is here. 

Director Neil Kornze, I appreciate you being here to answer our 

questions. I hope we can learn today when we can expect BLM to 

utilize its authority to conduct online lease sales. And with that, 

I am going to acknowledge Mrs. Lawrence for her introductory 

statement. Thank you Mrs. Lawrence. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Good morning, and thank you, Chairman, for 

holding this important hearing. I thank our witness, Director 

Kornze for his time and testimony. 


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Our discussion today will focus on the management of oil and gas 

lease sales by the Bureau of Land Management. 

Congress has entrusted this agency with the stewardship of millions of acres of public lands. The agency is capably managing grazing, recreation, and the development of natural resources on public 

land. For energy production, the agency is also managing public 

lands in Wyoming that produce the majority of the Nation’s coal. 

Solar, wind, and geothermal energy, our renewable energy sources, 

are also responsibly managed by the agency. 

During the Obama Administration, the agency has approved 

enough drilling permits to sustain oil and gas development on public lands for the next 4 years. Some people accuse the agency of 

hindering oil, gas, or coal production on public land. I think the 

facts speak otherwise. BLM has offered over 4 million acres of land 

to lease for oil and gas development. But industry has only bid on 

a fraction of that land. 

Let us examine all of the circumstances to see how best we can 

use the land that is now under energy development leases. Once 

that assessment is complete, it will then be appropriate to revisit 

the question on whether more public lands should be made available for development. I am looking forward to this discussion, and 

I yield back. 

Mr. GOSAR. Thank you, Mrs. Lawrence. I will hold the record 

open for 5 legislative days for any members who would like to submit a written statement. 

Mr. GOSAR. We will now recognize our distinguished witness. I 

am pleased to welcome The Honorable Neil Kornze, the director of 

the Bureau of Land Management at the U.S. Department of Interior. Welcome, Mr. Kornze. Pursuant to committee rules, witnesses 

will be sworn in before they testify. 

Will you please rise and raise your right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 

about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 

truth? 

Mr. KORNZE. Yes. 

Mr. GOSAR. Thank you. Please be seated. 

Let the record reflect that the witness answered in the affirmative. 

In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your oral testimony to 5 minutes. Your entire written statement will be made 

part of the record. Mr. Kornze, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

WITNESS STATEMENT 

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE NEIL KORNZE 

Mr. KORNZE. Thank you, Chairman, Ranking Member Lawrence, 

and the other members of the committee. It is a pleasure to be with 

you today. 

The Bureau of Land Management manages 250 million acres on 

the surface of this Nation and about 700 million acres of its subsurface minerals. We manage these lands under the dual framework of multiple use and sustained yield which is a mandate from 

Congress which has its 40th anniversary this year. 


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We at the BLM take seriously our obligation under this framework to ensure the Federal Government’s on-shore energy resources, both renewable and conventional, are developed in a safe 

and responsible manner. Every year we face the challenge of meeting this obligation while also moving forward with some of the 

most advanced and largest energy projects in the world. 

The BLM’s oil and gas program continues to provide critical resources to our Nation’s energy supply. In fact, on lands where you 

need a BLM permit to drill, oil production has more than doubled 

during this administration, which outpaces production increases 

seen nationwide over that same time period. 

In fiscal year 2015 on-shore oil and gas royalties from Federal leases exceeded $1.8 billion, approximately half of that money goes 

back to the States where the development occurred. Over the same 

period, tribal royalties exceeded $850 million all of which went to 

tribal or individual Indian mineral owners. 

In addition to overseeing this growth in production, the BLM 

continues to offer leasing and drilling opportunities far in excess of 

industry demand. For instance, last year, the BLM offered more 

than 4 million acres of lease sales, yet industry only bid on 15 percent of that acreage. Similarly, industry currently has 32 million 

acres under lease, an area roughly the size of Alabama. However, 

only 12 million of those acres or less than 40 percent are producing 

oil. And last year the BLM approved more than double the number 

of drilling permits than there were wells drilled on the lands where 

they could be used. 

Furthermore, by the end of the year, there were nearly 4 years 

worth of permits ready to drill without any additional work or review by the Bureau of Land Management. These permits have been 

approved and are on the shelf in the hands of industry today. 

Part of what we see in these important statistics is that as is always the case, current oil prices, market conditions, and geographic 

considerations drive development decisions. With respect to leasing, 

the BLM’s actions are guided by the Mineral Leasing Act which instructs the BLM to hold quarterly lease sales in States where lands 

are available. In the lower 48, the leasing process starts with the 

public identifying parcels that they would like offered at a lease 

sale. The BLM decides whether to include a particular parcel in a 

lease sale based on allocation decisions made in applicable land use 

plans, our evaluation of resource conflicts, and compliance with 

other statutory requirements and management objectives. 

Once we identify those parcels that are appropriate for potential 

inclusion in a sale, the BLM prepares an environmental analysis 

in order to give the public and the BLM an opportunity to look 

more closely at the management considerations surrounding an individual parcel in order to inform the ultimate leasing decision on 

that parcel. 

Given the extraordinary demands placed on public lands and the 

resources they contain, the BLM works closely with stakeholders 

throughout the process to ensure the development is directed to the 

right places that have the fewest resource conflicts. After completing the necessary reviews, the BLM offers parcels at a lease 

sale. Normally the sale schedule is announced at the beginning of 

the year. However, from time to time there have to be adjustments 


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and occasionally postponements. This happens if there are no lands 

available, the applicable presale requirements have not been completed, or in isolated cases unpredictable events or safety concerns 

justify a postponement. 

When an unpredictable event or safety concern prompts a postponement, all of the parcels that would have been offered at that 

postponed sale are offered at a subsequent sale, typically that same 

year, often just a few months later. 

Recognizing that there are always opportunities to improve the 

BLM is making important investments in our leasing process consistent with our larger effort to modernize our oil and gas program. 

Notably, since receiving new permanent statutory authority, the 

BLM has been working to stand up an Internet-based leasing system and we intend to phase in this new process with online lease 

sales later this year. 

Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I look forward to your 

questions. 

[Prepared statement of Mr. Kornze follows:] 


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Mrs. LUMMIS. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman, and we will, 

because Mrs. Lawrence has a markup, we will give her 5 minutes 

to ask questions first. 

So thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Kornze, and 

now Mrs. Lawrence, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Director. The management of our energy resources is of critical importance to our national and economic security. Those resources are 

not replaceable once they are gone, so it makes sense that we use 

them in the right way and at the right time. 

Could you please respond to this? Do you have an estimate of the 

share of oil and gas produced on Federal lands as compared to nonFederal lands? Can you respond to that? What is our level of production? 

Mr. KORNZE. So in terms of production on lands where you need 

a BLM permit to drill, it is about 7 percent of the Nation’s oil and 

about 11 percent of the Nation’s gas. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. And it seems reasonable to me that in deciding 

how to best manage our non-renewing resources, we need to have 

clarity on the current performance. How do gas and oil prices influence bids on the oil leases and later production levels? 

Mr. KORNZE. We see a strong correlation between prices and interest in leasing. So, for instance, and there has been, of course, a 

steep decline in oil prices recently. And we have seen a very strong 

drop off in drilling, and in APD applications, drilling permit applications, particularly this year. It didn’t go over the cliff last year, 

but right now we are seeing half or a third of what we were seeing 

just a year ago. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. So with the active current lease lands, are they 

producing at a high capacity and are they contributing to our energy security? 

Mr. KORNZE. So somewhere around 36, 37 percent of the lands 

that are leased are actually being used for production. When they 

are producing, they are producing important revenues for the country, and we are proud to be part of that. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Okay. We have heard recent reports about a 

proposed cancellation in the Thompson Divide region. The concern 

is about inconsistent environmental standards associated with the 

25 leases. Did NEPA apply at the time of the approval on the sale 

of these leases, and if not, why not? 

Mr. KORNZE. So we had some procedural errors in our leasing effort there. So the short story is that the Forest Service put forward 

a plan for approving potential leases in that area in the 1990s 

when we went forward with leases in the Aughts. We did not correctly link our analysis to the environmental analysis of the Forest 

Service. So they were issued with error, and the Interior Board of 

Land Appeals, IBLA immediately threw out three of them that 

were challenged and the rest of them continue to have difficulties. 

So we are going back, doing NEPA, evaluating the situation and 

we are working through that process right now. 

Mrs. LAWRENCE. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. I thank the gentlelady. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Gosar is recognized for 5 minutes. 


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Mr. GOSAR. Thanks, Madam Chair. Mr. Kornze—I will scoot 

down here. That one has got a buzz. 

Thank you, Mr. Kornze, and thank you very much for getting 

back to me with regards for lands scheduled for disposal on the 

BLM. We look forward to the next month to seeing that up on the 

Web site. 

Mr. Kornze, I’m strongly opposed to the practice used by this administration which utilizes the Antiquities Act to unilaterally designate national monuments and to lap up millions of acres of land, 

BLM, or otherwise, from resource development. I find it especially 

egregious when the administration plays fast and loose with this 

authority at the behest of the extremist environmentalists and special interests that do not have American people’s best interest as 

their motives. 

Mr. Kornze, Arizona already has 18 national monuments, more 

than any other State. Is the administration currently working on 

designating a new national monument in Arizona on BLM lands? 

Mr. KORNZE. So I am going to have to refer you to the White 

House, the Antiquities Act is a Presidential power, and you know, 

any decisions that relate to that are under the auspices of —— 

Mr. GOSAR. Well, I understand, but have they reached out and 

talked to you about any types of parcels particularly in western Arizona? No conversation whatsoever with the White House at all? 

Mr. KORNZE. I am going to direct you to CEQ in the White House 

for information on what they are working on or what they are not 

working on. 

Mr. GOSAR. So the White House hasn’t reached out to you one 

iota with regard to any lands located in Arizona? 

Mr. KORNZE. I would say we receive requests and interests from 

a lot of people from all types of stakeholders on these issues. 

Mr. GOSAR. No, but this is a specific ask. I mean, you are under 

oath and I am asking you, did the White House or the administration talk with you or anybody underneath—the BLM in regards to 

any withdrawal potentials utilizing the antiquities in Arizona? 

Mr. KORNZE. I have heard discussion related to multiple possibilities. 

Mr. GOSAR. Multiple possibilities. Can you elaborate rate on 

those multiple possibilities? 

Mr. KORNZE. I am talking about looking at the country and figuring out where would this be appropriate, where would it not? 

Mr. GOSAR. So there is some conversation going on between the 

White House and BLM and agencies in regards to antiquities withdrawal? 

Mr. KORNZE. Yes. 

Mr. GOSAR. That is kind of—you misled me. I mean, you know, 

at the very, very beginning of that conversation, you said you will 

have to talk to the White House. So there is some coordination 

going on. Is there a Member of Congress that actually is involved 

in those conversations? 

Mr. KORNZE. Well—— 

Mr. GOSAR. Remember, you are under oath. 

Mr. KORNZE. I mean, it depends on what we are talking about, 

sir. 


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Mr. GOSAR. Is there a Member of Congress from Arizona regarding those discussions with BLM and the White House? 

Mr. KORNZE. Is there a Member of Congress involved? Not that 

I am aware of, but I am going to refer you to the White House for 

more information on what they are working on. 

Mr. GOSAR. My office currently has a FOIA request at the Department of Interior regarding the proposals, and the coordination 

between land agencies and environmental groups. Will that request 

collaborate the information that you shared here today? 

Mr. KORNZE. I don’t know what—I don’t know the request you 

are referring to, so—— 

Mr. GOSAR. The request we sent was by multiple Members of 

Congress, was submitted on 12–3-2015, and we have received nothing of substance to date, absolutely shameful. So much for being 

the most transparent administration in history. Any idea when 

your administration will respond to that request? 

Mr. KORNZE. I am not familiar with that request so I couldn’t tell 

you. 

Mr. GOSAR. We will make sure that it is reissued then. And we 

will look for an expedited conversation. 

In July of last year the House of Representatives passed an 

amendment to block pending national monuments throughout the 

country where there is significant local opposition. Do you support 

pursuing the designation of a monument that blatantly ignores the 

will of local governments and overrides every clear opposition from 

local communities who will be negatively be targeted by such action? 

Mr. KORNZE. So it has been a consistent position of this administration to make sure that any use of the Antiquities Act is done 

through community conversation, that it is responding to local interests. 

Mr. GOSAR. So we would have a scheduled public hearing in regards to those withdrawals? 

Mr. KORNZE. There have been public hearings before other designations. So—— 

Mr. GOSAR. I am going to be more specific about Arizona. When 

have those conversations occurred? Would you enlighten me? 

Mr. KORNZE. Which? 

Mr. GOSAR. Well, I mean, you made the comment today that 

there has been some conversations between the White House and 

your office in regards to potential liquidity of some lands, so when 

are we expecting to have these conversations with the public out 

in Arizona? 

Mr. KORNZE. I presume if a decision is made to pursue with interest that sort of concept, that there would be a public process involved. 

Mr. GOSAR. So you would tell me that that is actually going to 

happen prior to, not afterwards? 

Mr. KORNZE. That has been the practice of this administration 

to make sure that there is a public process. 

Mr. GOSAR. Can you provide for the record those that have applied prior to for the record so that we can actually have a record 

of that? 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah, you sure can. 


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Mr. GOSAR. I would appreciate it. Madam Chair, I thank you 

very, very much for the questions. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. I thank the gentleman and I will now take my 5 

minutes. Thank you, Mr. Kornze, for joining us today. 

I want to start by visiting about the coal lease sale moratorium. 

Even with the leasing moratorium in place, you and Secretary 

Jewell have suggested that some leases might continue and that 

some leasing could take place under certain circumstances. 

Can you provide some more assurances that some lease sales will 

be completed, and when? 

Mr. KORNZE. So a lot of it depends on industry interests. All 

right, so we have, I believe, five different projects in Wyoming 

alone that have received records of decision, or near that point in 

the process and are able to move forward. A very large portion of 

what we have on the list to continue to move forward are projects 

that have essentially been approved but are sitting on the shelf because industry has asked us to pause. So there is a considerable 

amount of leasing that is available to move in Wyoming in addition 

to other States. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Now I want to shift to oil and gas. We had given 

you authority to do online leasing. Hopefully, that would alleviate 

some of the concerns that you have expressed that you have to cancel meetings because the rooms are too small or the weather is too 

bad. You mentioned that you are moving forward this summer, but 

now I heard you say earlier later this year. 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. So what does that mean? At one point I had heard, 

I thought I had heard it would happen this summer. Now I am 

hearing later this year. 

Mr. KORNZE. So I will clarify. We intend to have one lease sale 

online this summer, hope to have two or three this fall. And then 

if those are a success, we should be using it broadly next year. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. And what is taking so long? 

Mr. KORNZE. So I think part of it is, you know, looking at a regulatory scheme and seeing if the authority that was given to us 

matches with our regulations and how we thread that needle. Because there is an odd requirement for us that it be oral bidding, 

so we are trying to figure out how do you meld oral bidding with 

an online system. 

And then other than that, you know, finding a contractor, getting 

the contract in place, putting together our rules of the road and our 

guidance for our team, so I can understand the desire to move faster and we are almost there. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. You have yet to make the fiscal year 2015 leasing 

data for oil and gas public. When do you plan on releasing that 

data? 

Mr. KORNZE. Let me consult with my staff. It should be very 

soon. Okay. It should be within the next few weeks. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. As in several months. 

Mr. KORNZE. No, next 2 weeks, let’s say. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Very good. Thank you. Some State offices cover 

multiple States. There were only three lease sales in New Mexico 

which has some very high interest areas in the Permian Basin because the Oklahoma field office had a sale. Do you have plans to 


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ensure four quarterly sales occur in New Mexico, Montana, North 

Dakota, and the other States with Federal oil and gas lands? 

Mr. KORNZE. We, just to make sure I—correct me if I don’t get 

to the point of your question here, we are intending to move ahead 

with everything that is on our schedule to the degree that we have 

lands that are available and the situations are, you know, we can 

provide for the safety and, you know, reasonable disposition of 

those sales. 

A lot of the difficulty we have had is, you know, adjusting to the 

level of public interest that has been brought to these lease sales. 

Historically, these have been quiet affairs, 15, 20 people sitting together conducting these sales. And now we often times have hundreds of people attending so we had an adjustment period through 

December, January, but I think Utah is a great example where we 

had a lease sale that was postponed in December and we have successfully orchestrated and had that lease sale since then. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. And it was postponed for what reason? 

Mr. KORNZE. We were surprised by the level of interest and so 

we were under the impression there were going to be hundreds of 

people attending. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Was it interest by bidders, or was it interest by opposition demonstrations? 

Mr. KORNZE. Generally demonstrators, yes. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. So are you required to make those bidding sessions 

public? 

Mr. KORNZE. Well, it is part of the ethos of the agency to make 

sure that we have as much of a public process as we can. So if folks 

want to attend in a reasonable way, express opinion, yeah, that is 

something that we welcome. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Was the information made available to you earlier 

that there may be protests, hence, that was not held, that lease 

sale? 

Mr. KORNZE. Earlier as in—— 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Well, you mentioned that it was postponed because 

you had a larger turnout. You anticipated a larger turnout, more 

interest, so to speak. So in other words, were you tipped off that 

some protesters were going to come? 

Mr. KORNZE. We saw press releases a day, day-and-a-half in advance, and we had in Utah, traditionally held these in our State 

office and so, you know, having this kind of—having a 15-person, 

you know, fairly docile meeting in the midst of our employee space 

was something we were very used to, a day-and-a-half in advance 

being able to find a place appropriate for a few hundred people, 

that, you know, with different levels of excitement, took us some 

time. 

So that was the reason that we postponed that sale and sought 

a different venue. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. I just find it interesting that a traditional practice 

conducted in a traditional place would be changed because of a 

press release a couple of days in advance that protesters intend to 

come. And protesters would have an opportunity to protest from a 

sidewalk, not disrupting the specific lease sale. 

Mr. KORNZE. Uh-huh. 


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Mrs. LUMMIS. And that sounds to me like an over-accommodation 

of a traditional, normal process in order to accommodate a protesting group. That sounds abnormal to me. 

Mr. KORNZE. Well, we also we have had an abnormal security situation related to some public agencies, including ours. All right, we 

have had a situation where we have had militias. We have had 

people raising arms at different times and we are on heightened 

alert. Right. 

We are concerned about safety and so a situation which we are 

not used to separating out, who’s a bidder and who’s not in a routine way, you know, gives us some pause and led us to take a half 

step back and say, how do we do this in the very near future and 

do it in a reasonable way that ensures the safety of everyone involved? 

Mrs. LUMMIS. So the leases that were non-NEPA compliant that 

were Forest Service issued in the 1990s and then subsequently you 

had to walk them back because of FBLA requirements, non-NEPA 

compliant issuances, where were those leases? Do you remember 

what State they were in? 

Mr. KORNZE. So the ones that Congresswoman Lawrence referred 

to, that was in Colorado. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. And what is their current status? 

Mr. KORNZE. So—— 

Mrs. LUMMIS. And let me ask first before I ask about their status. Had drilling begun in any of them, or were they dormant in 

pursuit of permitting? 

Mr. KORNZE. So there’s a range, there’s about 65 different leases 

in Colorado that are being reviewed through this process. Some 

have active oil and gas production. And some have nothing. So 

there’s the entire spectrum. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Okay. And for those where production had begun, 

is production continuing? 

Mr. KORNZE. Yes. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. In those where it had not begun, what is the process of reissuing them in a compliant manner? 

Mr. KORNZE. So what is on the table right now in terms of a proposal is the Forest Service has redone their oil and gas land use 

plan for the White River National Forest so they have taken a 

fresh look based on recent information and said, here are the areas 

we think are appropriate for oil and gas. Here are the ones that 

we don’t going forward. We have during our NEPA process incorporated that most recent information that they’ve provided and 

that they used and followed very similar lines. So places where 

they say we don’t think oil and gas makes sense, we’ve followed a 

similar proposal or we have put forward a similar proposal and in 

places where they have said, you know, we think oil and gas is a 

good use of this land, we’re proposing to leave those in place. But 

anyplace where there is existing production, that production will 

continue. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. With regard to the pilot office program, we were 

expecting a report on how that is going with regard to streamlining 

permitting approvals. That report we expected by February 1. Do 

you have that report? 


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Mr. KORNZE. We are working on that. I will be frank that we had 

some confusion as to which fiscal year it was desired in. And so we 

are doing a double quick effort to get that done and get that up 

to you. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. I am going to—now, I am going to switch topic as 

little bit and ask you some questions about the wild horse program. 

Mr. KORNZE. Okay. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. A little bit off the oil and gas topic. Both your 

State and mine have overpopulations of wild horses. This is a program that continues to vex those who are administering the wild 

horse program and the States that are trying to protect the quality 

of the range. 

Can you give me an update on what the status is of the program, 

what options you are considering that would make this program 

function better for especially for Wyoming and Nevada. 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah, well, I appreciate the question. Those two 

States do have the largest numbers of horses and are a serious concern. So for those that are less oriented on wild horses and burros 

just as an entry level discussion, there are about 50,000 horses on 

the range—excuse me 60,000 horses on the range in the West. 

About 50,000 that we have removed and are now in long-term holding pastures, usually in Midwestern States. Our own internal recommendation as to how many horses should be on the range is 

somewhere just south of 30,000. So we are nearly double what it 

should be range wide. In some places, some individual spaces it is 

many fold over where it should be. So we have two difficulties here. 

One is that the reproductive rate is 15, 20 percent per year. These 

populations can double in 3-and-a-half years, and on the back end 

of the program, adoptions which is the outlet of the program have 

declined precipitously. We used to adopt out nearly 10,000 horses 

a year and now we are lucky if we get 2,000 adopted. 

So a couple of things that we are doing, one, we are trying to be 

more vocal about this. And so I appreciate you asking the question. 

I think more public dialogue is needed. But we are very focused on 

birth control methods and looking at, you know, both drugs that 

can provide a 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-year window of birth control because 

right now we have PZP, but PZP will only, you know, reduce fertility for a year. And so we need a longer-term tool because we 

can’t get out and touch every horse every year. It is just simply not 

possible with the budgets we have. So we have invested nearly $11 

million in roughly 20 different projects, 15, 20 different projects. So 

we are working with USGS. We are working with big universities 

trying to pull together a research program that if we have success, 

it can be verified, it can be duplicated. A lot of what we have seen 

in the past has been smaller teams, smaller researchers, some of 

which couldn’t be replicated. So we are taking a big science approach in hopes that we can truly find a solution on that side. 

We are also looking at issues of spaying and neutering. We have 

to be creative about what’s possible. I think in the medium term, 

spaying and neutering horses as we spay and neuter our dogs and 

cats may be something that we need to do. And so we are researching that as well and the best tools and the best ways. So that’s part 

of our program. 


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We are also trying to talk vocally about the actual cost of the 

program. One of the questions that I asked my team when I joined 

the agency was, how much are we spending? Because, you know, 

the team sat with me one day and said, here are three scenarios 

for potential gathers next year. How many should we do? And I 

said, well, what’s the long-term cost that comes with each one of 

those choices? And we didn’t have an answer. It took as you while 

to figure out lifetime costs, but that lifetime cost is approximately 

$50,000, or up to $50,000 per horse over the course of its life. So 

that is a lot of money that could be invested into a lot of very important public programs. So it is important for us that we find 

more adopters, that we have fewer horses coming into the system, 

that we find some broad—some broad ways to move forward. So if 

you have other ideas, we are very open and I appreciate you asking 

the question. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Well, thank you. It was pretty open-ended because 

I don’t have any better ideas, so I appreciate that. And I want to 

thank the gentleman for indulging this lengthy discussion. The 

gentleman, Mr. Palmer, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. PALMER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. On the horse issue, 

I have one constituent that this is a big deal with her and she will 

be delighted that I asked about this. But does the Bureau of Land 

Management engage in the sale of wild horses, for instance, to 

Asian markets? 

Mr. KORNZE. We do not sell outside of the country that I am 

aware of. 

Mr. PALMER. Is there a sale for meat products, dog food, things 

like that? 

Mr. KORNZE. No. 

Mr. PALMER. So there’s no sale conducted by the Bureau of Land 

Management, just a management of the herd issue? 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah, our focus is on making sure that there’s a humane situation for the horses; that they end up with good homes. 

Mr. PALMER. Okay, thank you. I want to get to some of the other 

questions here. The Bureau of Land Management is considering 

implementing a rule an methane emissions. The EPA is already 

doing this. Seems to me that this is an unnecessary overlap and 

I bring this up because prior to 2008, and I’ve raised this point in 

hearing after hearing, there were 100,000 new businesses started 

up each year, more than businesses that closed; 100,000 more businesses open than closed. Since 2008, it is now 70,000 more businesses closing than opening up. We now rank 12th in the world 

among the industrialized nations in entrepreneurism. And one of 

the things that we consistently hear about, particularly the small 

business, is being overregulated and the complexity of the regulations and the uncertainty that it creates in trying to make a decision whether to open a business, expand a business, invest capital. 

It just seems to me that if the EPA is already regulating methane emissions at the wellhead, natural gas wells, it seems to be 

just adding to the regulatory burden. Can you respond to that? 

Mr. KORNZE. So we’ll say that we are, EPA does have a proposal 

that relates to venting. I don’t believe it looks at flaring. Our regulatory approach looks at both. We have been working closely with 

EPA to make sure that we are not providing duplication. In fact, 


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we have a portion of our rule that speaks to the fact that if you 

are meeting EPA requirements, that you can step back from requirements that we have. So, and part of what traditionally the 

EPA does is they look forward and say new or modified operations, 

we’ll follow their regulation, whereas we already have 100,000 different oil and gas wells open on public lands. So we have a regulatory responsibility there. And the bigger issue is that there are— 

sort of brings this all together for us and brings us the urgency is 

that there’s roughly $400 million worth of American energy going 

up in the air. It is either being flared, or it’s just being vented so 

it’s really a conversation about is there a way to more productively 

in a reasonable fashion get more of the energy in the pipelines and 

used in American homes because, you know, I believe the statistic 

is something, it is enough energy to power 5 million homes. So that 

is a loss that I am not sure we are prepared to take, so we’re taking a look at that and that’s why we are having a public comment 

on our rule. 

Mr. PALMER. Are you applying this just on Federal lands or is 

this across the board? 

Mr. KORNZE. Ours is just public lands. Yeah. 

Mr. PALMER. Okay. Well, the interesting thing is, there’s a University of Texas study that they did in collaboration with the Environmental Defense Fund that shows that the majority of the hydraulically fractured well completions which were were sampled 

during the study had equipment in place that reduced methane 

emissions by 99 percent. So I just, it appears that the technology 

is ahead of the curve, so to speak, and I do agree with you, one 

of my concerns was—about the flaring is that we are basically 

burning resources. 

I wanted to ask you also about this 20-year moratorium on coal 

leases that Secretary Jewell announced. Will that—do you know or 

have any idea if there is an intention to apply that to oil and natural gas leases as well? 

Mr. KORNZE. So it’s a 3-year pause and then a programmatic review which mimics what was done in the Nixon administration and 

during the Reagan administration. I have not heard any discussion 

of doing something similar with oil and gas. 

Mr. PALMER. How about timber? 

Mr. KORNZE. No. 

Mr. PALMER. All right. One of the things that I have pointed out 

is that the United States is literally an energy super power. 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah. 

Mr. PALMER. I mean, I think we have only explored 15 percent 

of our offshore resources. We’ve got—and from what I have gotten 

from the Bureau of Land Management in my own research, enormous reserves of oil and natural gas. Just stunning amounts. What 

I would like, if you don’t mind and my time is—has run out here, 

you could respond in writing to this. I would like for, if you could, 

to send to my office your estimated reserves on Federal lands for 

oil, natural gas, coal and timber, you know, your latest estimates 

on Federal lands. 

Mr. KORNZE. You bet. We would be happy to do that. 

Mr. PALMER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I yield back. 


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Mrs. LUMMIS. I was extremely indulgent with my own time, and 

Mr. Palmer, I appreciate your being more timely than I was. Do 

you have any further questions? 

Mr. PALMER. No, I think I am fine. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Okay, I appreciate it very much. I have a couple 

of followup questions, Mr. Kornze, before we let you go. And thank 

you for appearing this morning in this abbreviated week in Congress. 

With regard to the BLM Permit Processing Improvement Act of 

2014, how many employees has BLM hired since this became law? 

Mr. KORNZE. I am going to have to track that down for you. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Okay, I’d appreciate it. We’d love to have those 

numbers so we understand specifically the exact field offices where 

hiring of inspectors and other positions have taken place. 

Mr. KORNZE. You bet. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. So if we could have it at that level of detail, I 

think that would be very instructive to us as to the direction that 

is being taken as this law is implemented. 

We also are interested in the allocation of funds to each field office for the previous fiscal year and the accomplishments of each 

field office relating to the coordination and processing of oil and gas 

use authorizations. So the question being, and this is a report that 

I believe the agency is required to have completed. It would be 

helpful to us to have it completed as soon as possible, or get us 

even some information as we go into this appropriation cycle so we 

can better understand the approach that you are taking with regard to human resource allocations—— 

Mr. KORNZE. Yeah. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. —and how this law is being implemented. Has 

that information been given to interior environment approps? Am 

I asking for redundant information, or—— 

Mr. KORNZE. I don’t believe we have. I mean, if this mimics the 

information that would come from the report that we referred to 

earlier, if you can provide, you know, specific data requests, you 

know, we might be able to get that to you, you know, in a fairly 

efficient manner. 

Mrs. LUMMIS. Okay, well, we will do that and we’ll ask the staff 

of this subcommittee to follow up with you in hopes that we can 

better understand as we prepare our request to the interior environment approps committee that we understand the allocation of 

human resources in these various offices. And understand the manpower needs and what we hear from our constituents about whether they are being met or not. We would appreciate that very much. 

Thank you very much for appearing before this subcommittee 

today. It is an abbreviated week in Congress, and lots is going on. 

We’re trying to cram 4 days of business into 3, and consequently, 

everyone is running hither, thither and yon, but your time and attention this morning this deeply appreciated by this committee, 

and I should probably go to whatever—see if—I guess there’s no 

further business. 

The announcements were made about how members have extra 

time. We’ve asked you the questions we need to, so there is no further business. We thank you, again. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. 


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Mr. KORNZE. Okay. Thank you very much. 

[Whereupon, at 9:59 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 


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