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23–615 2017

S. HRG. 115–10 

NOMINATION HEARING OF THE HONORABLE 

RYAN ZINKE TO BE THE SECRETARY OF THE 

INTERIOR 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JANUARY 17, 2017 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://fdsys.gov 


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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada 

COLIN HAYES, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel 

KELLIE DONNELLY, Deputy Chief Counsel 

ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director 

SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel 


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C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska ................... 1 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from Washington .................................................................................................................... 4 

Daines, Hon. Steve, a U.S. Senator from Montana .............................................. 6 

Tester, Hon. Jon, a U.S. Senator from Montana ................................................... 8 

WITNESSES 

Zinke, Hon. Ryan, a U.S. Representative for Montana, nominated to be Secretary of the Interior ............................................................................................ 10 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 

21st Century Conservation Service Corps: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 176 

Alaska Federation of Natives: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 177 

American Exploration & Mining Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 179 

American Fly Fishing Trade Association, et al.: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 57 

American Recreation Coalition: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 181 

American Sportfishing Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 183 

Archery Trade Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 184 

Association of California Water Agencies: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 185 

Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 59 

Byrne, Elizabeth: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 186 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Chart entitled ‘‘Annual U.S. Coal & Natural Gas Production’’ .................... 105 

Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 61 

Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 187 

Coalition of Legislators for Energy Action Now: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 86 

Colaprico, Christie: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 188 

(The) Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead Nation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 63 

Conklin, Dr. Ken: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 189 

(The) Corps Network: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 190 

Daines, Hon. Steve: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 6 


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IV 

Fallon Paiute-Shoshone Tribe: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 64 

Finley, Vernon: 

Statement for the Record ................................................................................. 192 

Forest County Potawatomi Community: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 65 

Fort Belknap Indian Community: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 66 

Fort Peck Tribes (Assiniboine & Sioux): 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 195 

Lighthouse Resources, Inc.: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 67 

Marine Retailers Association of the Americas: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 196 

(The) Metropolitan Water District of Southern California: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 197 

Mission Valley Republican Women’s Club: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 198 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 1 

National Congress of American Indians: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 203 

National Marine Manufacturers Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 204 

National Shooting Sports Foundation, Inc.: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 70 

New Mexico Business Community: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 24 

New Mexico Faith Leaders: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 32 

New Mexico Wildlife Federation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 36 

Osage Nation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 205 

Outdoor Industry Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 207 

Outdoor Recreation Industry Roundtable: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 211 

Pala Band of Mission Indians: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 213 

Public Lands Council and National Cattlemen’s Beef Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 69 

Public Lands Foundation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 214 

Public Lands Service Coalition: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 71 

Quapaw Tribe of Oklahoma: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 215 

Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 216 

Rincon Band of Luisen ̃ o Indians: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 217 

Rocky Mountain Tribal Leaders Council: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 218 

Salt River Project: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 219 

San Manuel Band of Mission Indians: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 220 

Santa Ynez Bank of Chumash Indians: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 221 

Secord, Pamela, et al.: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 222 

Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 73 

Shasta Indian Nation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 225 


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V 

Southern Ute Indian Tribe: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 226 

Specialty Equipment Market Association: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 227 

Tester, Hon. Jon: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 8 

Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 75 

Topar, Rosemary: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 228 

Tule River Indian Tribe of California: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 229 

Ute Indian Tribe: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 230 

Vertefeuille, Jan: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 231 

Vet Voice Foundation: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 38 

Village of Hobart (Wisconsin): 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 232 

Walsh, Jamie: 

Comment for the Record .................................................................................. 237 

Zinke, Hon. Ryan: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 10 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 12 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 121 


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NOMINATION HEARING OF THE HONORABLE 

RYAN ZINKE TO BE THE SECRETARY OF 

THE INTERIOR 

TUESDAY, JANUARY 17, 2017 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:17 p.m. in Room 

SD–366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S. 

SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

The CHAIRMAN. Good afternoon, everyone. To get started, just to 

kind of give a lay of the land here this afternoon, I will first proceed with my opening statement, then I will call upon our Ranking 

Member, Senator Cantwell, to make hers. After Senator Cantwell 

has concluded her remarks, we will hear from our colleagues, the 

Montana Senators. Senator Daines and Senator Tester, thank you 

both. Senator Daines, of course, is on the committee here, and Senator Tester, it is good to have you join us as well. They will introduce our distinguished witness and the other member of the Montana delegation, Representative Ryan Zinke. 

After the introductions, as is the committee’s long-standing practice with nominees, I will swear in the witness and ask him three 

questions that we address to all nominees at confirmation hearings. 

That is how we will proceed this afternoon. I think it is important for us all to recognize that we also have a vote that is scheduled at about 4:15. That will cause a little bit of an interruption, 

but we do want to try to move as expeditiously through this hearing as we can. 

Before I proceed, I would like to recognize an individual who is 

well-known to this committee, the former Chairman of the Energy 

Committee, former Senator Frank Murkowski, who I happen to 

know well. It is good to have him back. [Laughter.] 

A little bit of favoritism there, but it is good to have you here 

as well. 

I would also like to welcome the new members to our committee. 

We have three new members, and we are pleased to have the new 

Senator from Nevada, Ms. Cortez Masto, welcome, as well as the 

new junior Senator from Illinois, Senator Duckworth. It is good to 

have you as part of the committee. Senator Sessions has also joined 

the committee. As we know, he is a little busy right now on some 


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other issues. But we do have three new members, and we welcome 

them. 

This is our first hearing of the new year, a new Congress, a new 

Administration, and I hope it will also be a new era for the Department of the Interior. 

I would like to thank you, Congressman Zinke, for being here. 

Yours has really been a life of service to our country from your 

more than two decades as a Navy SEAL, to your time as a Member 

of the House of Representatives, then, of course most recently, you 

have answered the call to continue your public work as a Cabinet 

Secretary for our next President. 

We have just begun to get to know one another here, since the 

President-elect announced his intention to nominate you. I have 

appreciated the conversations we have had, and I look forward to 

continuing them in this more formal setting here today. 

As you learn more about each of the states that are touched by 

the Department of the Interior, I particularly appreciate your efforts to understand how and why Alaska is unique among them. 

Now to state that Alaska has had a difficult or a tenuous relationship with the outgoing Administration is probably more than 

an understatement. Instead of seeing us as the State of Alaska, our 

current President and Secretary seem to see us as Alaska, the national park and wildlife refuge, a broad expanse of wilderness with 

little else of interest or value. 

We have lost access to lands and to waters that even President 

Carter had promised us would be open to us. We have had our 

long-standing right to manage wildlife within our borders ripped 

away. We have seen projects halted through the delay or the denial 

of vital permits. 

For eight years it seemed this Administration has taken the approach that Alaska has to be protected from Alaskans, and they 

have acted accordingly. The restrictions that we face in resource 

development are almost unbelievable at times. 

Through the Interior Department, the Obama Administration 

has attempted to ban energy development in nearly all of the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas. It has withdrawn tens of thousands of 

square miles of water outside of those two areas. It has attempted 

to convert the non-wilderness 1002 area in our coastal plane in 

ANWR which was set aside by Congress for its energy potential, 

into de facto wilderness. It has canceled lease sales, closed half of 

our National Petroleum Reserve, and imposed costly extra legal 

mitigation requirements. It goes on and on and on, and we have 

had an opportunity to talk about that. 

The Obama Administration has repeatedly violated or sought to 

evade our ‘‘no more’’ clause. It has rewritten management plans to 

cut off economic activities and other reasonable uses of public 

lands. It has deprived us of an opportunity but offered nothing in 

return, not even to Alaska Native villages that are threatened because of climate change. 

This reaches all the way out to King Cove, where our current 

Secretary rejected a short, one-lane, gravel, noncommercial-use 

road needed to protect the health and safety of nearly 1,000 Alaskans. Without that road, we have seen 55 medevacs over the past 

three years alone, including recently an elderly Aleut woman who 


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had a hip fracture. She was forced to wait more than 40 hours for 

help to arrive. 

While Alaska may be the poster child, the reality is that our 

state is not alone in having suffered at the hands of the Interior 

Department. With little regard for local concern and opposition, the 

President has designated more land and water as national monuments than the previous 18 Presidents combined. 

Landscape-level planning, a term that sounds pretty reasonable, 

is another example of a strategy that has been used to reduce the 

influence of local areas so that someone sitting here in Washington, 

D.C. can tell someone living in Fortymile, Alaska, or Blanding, 

Utah, what their life is going to look like. 

Of course, Congressman Zinke, this is the Interior Department 

that you are walking into, and I am counting on you, as many 

Alaskans are, and I think many Americans are, to come in and 

help fix it. I know that you are a Navy man, so excuse the expression, but we hope the cavalry is on the way. I have a list of some 

things that I think can be done to improve the situation. 

We need an Interior Department that fully understands the commitments made to Alaska and abides by them, particularly our ‘‘no 

more’’ clause. We need the Department to recognize individuals 

such as John Sturgeon, what they go through when agencies like 

the Park Service overreach into our lives. We need the Department 

to restore public access to public lands, to allow us to produce our 

resources, and to help us restore throughput in the Trans-Alaska 

Pipeline. We need a Department that will lift decades-old public 

lands orders that no longer serve any purpose other than to allow 

the Federal Government to control more of Alaska, and that will 

prioritize the cleanup of contaminated lands and legacy wells. 

In Alaska, which has 223 million Federal acres but just onequarter of 1 percent of its land in private ownership—again, we 

have 223 million Federal acres and just one-quarter of one percent 

of land in private ownership—Interior must recognize the importance of land transfers and land exchanges. 

We have promises that have been made to our state at statehood 

that remain unfulfilled, promises made pursuant to ANCSA, promises made to our Native veterans. So know that ensuring that our 

Federal Government honors those commitments to Alaskans remains one of my highest priorities. 

We also need a Department that will rely on the expertise of the 

state and do more to address our needs from volcanic monitoring 

to mineral mapping within its budget. 

That is a lot on its own, but if you are confirmed, you will also 

inherit an array of problems and challenges that are much broader 

in scope. The Park Service reports it has an $11.3 billion maintenance backlog, meaning that even while some remain intent on acquiring more Federal land, we are not properly taking care of what 

we already have. 

The U.S.-affiliated islands—the territories, like the Northern 

Marianas, and freely associated states like Palau, have issues ranging from worker visas to compact agreements that cannot be forgotten either. 

Then there is the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Whether we are discussing tribal courts, education, infrastructure or development, we 


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must work together to improve and empower our Native communities. That begins with meaningful consultation with tribes, which 

is a legal requirement that the outgoing Administration has often 

failed to meet. 

Finally, Congressman Zinke, if you are confirmed, I expect we 

will work together in a manner that is thoughtful and reflective of 

a true partnership, and I hope that you will be able to show that 

the Interior Department is capable of working with rather than 

against local stakeholders to achieve good results. 

I think in the conversations that we have had, you shared a vision of how the Department will look under your direction. We both 

know that will take hard work and close cooperation with this committee to fulfill your vision. But that work is well worth it for all 

of us who truly care about our public lands, who want to see them 

managed well, and who want the public to have access to them, 

whether for rock climbing, or gold mining or energy development. 

So, again, I thank you for being here, and for your willingness 

to serve. 

I would now like to turn to Ranking Member Cantwell for your 

comments. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

WASHINGTON 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Chairwoman Murkowski, and 

welcome to the former Chair, Frank Murkowski. 

Welcome to the new members of the committee, particularly on 

our side of the aisle, Senator Duckworth and Senator Cortez Masto. 

Thank you for being willing to serve on this committee. I look forward to maybe seeing Senator Sessions on the committee. We will 

leave that for another day’s discussion. 

Our two colleagues here, thank you for coming to support the 

nomination of your colleague, who has been nominated by the 

President-elect to be the Secretary of Interior. I will give you my 

congratulations on that nomination when we get to the Q&A. 

But today, we are here to discuss the Office of the Secretary of 

Interior as one of the most important offices of the Federal Government because it oversees our national parks, wildlife refuges, public lands, and is responsible for protecting our nation’s trust responsibility to Indian country, and, as the Chair mentioned, to insular areas that, frankly, get very little attention here and deserve 

more attention. 

The Secretary is also responsible for much of the nation’s onshore and offshore mineral resources, and it also manages the 

water resources in Western states responsible for our nation’s 

hydro system, something that Senator Wyden and I are very keen 

on, as well as our colleague from Nevada. It is a far-reaching portfolio, and it is growing, and it very much impacts our economy. 

One of the main responsibilities of the Secretary of the Interior 

is overseeing our national parks. The park system includes 417 

areas covering more than 84 million acres in every state, with an 

annual operating budget of almost $3 billion, and has more than 

20,000 employees. Americans treasure their national parks. They 

drive an outdoor economy that provides over 6.1 million jobs and 


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$646 billion in annual revenues, so never underestimate the value 

of public land when it comes to recreation. 

Last year was the 100th anniversary of our national parks, and 

while we passed a very modest improvement to our national parks, 

I believe our 100-year celebration deserves more, and I look forward to asking the nominee if he agrees with me on that. 

Americans want us to do more to invest in these crown jewels by 

providing jobs and recreational opportunities and, something I 

know we all can agree on, fixing the maintenance backlog. One of 

the successes that the Senate had last Congress was passing bipartisan legislation preserving our special places through bipartisan 

Land and Water Conservation Fund legislation. 

I believe that Congressman Zinke will have a chance to discuss 

this in his testimony, but I am sure, as an avid sportsman, he 

knows the value of our public lands and was enthusiastic about us 

trying to come up with bipartisan legislation to fix the Land and 

Water Conservation Fund. 

My constituents want to know, with the new Administration: are 

these public lands going to face an unbelievable attack by those 

who would like to take these public lands away from us and turn 

them over back to states or are we going to continue to manage 

these resources as the incredible investment they are and continue 

to improve so we can get even more economic return? 

A second major responsibility of the Department of the Interior 

is the management of resource extraction over 260 million surface 

acres, 700 million subsurface acres and 1.7 billion OCS, Outer Continental Shelf. 

So today’s hearing is about determining whether the nominee is 

committed to making sure that we minimize environmental harm, 

and pay for cleanup and that we follow the fundamental principle 

of ‘‘the polluter pays.’’ 

There is and continues to be an opportunity for us to ensure that 

these public policies, according to the Government Accountability 

Office (GAO), are getting a fair return for the American taxpayer. 

We have seen, over time, problems in the fossil fuel program at Interior that, as GAO has said, could cost taxpayers over $200 million in lost revenue each decade. [The Obama Administration took 

important steps to try to fix these problems.] The Deepwater Horizon oil spill in 2010 exposed the consequences of failing to have 

these kinds of regulations, and so the disaster caused us to put in 

major reforms at the Department of the Interior to make sure important oversight and regulations were not pushed aside and that 

we monitor these programs. 

I would have to say that the coal program is one that needs continued focus and attention, and we will have a chance to talk about 

this today. 

The Obama Administration has adopted rules to ensure a fair return to taxpayers for our national mineral resources, requiring 

companies to pay for mitigation for the damages that they cause. 

Just today, the Government Accountability Office announced a 

new conclusion after reviewing multiple types of energy and natural resources. The GAO found that coal mining alone gets very 

special treatment in the ability to have bonding for reclamation requirements. Everyone else—oil and gas producers, wind, solar, and 


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even hard rock miners—have to post cash or a third-party bond to 

make sure that they can clean up the pollution that would be 

caused. This is something that needs to be addressed by the agency, and I would hope that our nominee would address this. 

Today’s hearing also affords Congressman Zinke the opportunity 

to demonstrate how he will uphold the trust and treaty obligations 

to 567 Federally-recognized tribes. This includes overseeing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Education and a $2.5 billion 

budget in Indian country. 

The reason, Madam Chair, I will take just a minute on this particular point, is that our colleagues, many of whom serve on this 

committee, also serve on Indian Affairs and will not have the same 

chance to point these important issues out to the nominee. But 

clearly, these issues of stewardship as it relates to tribal lands, 

support for tribal education, social services, and infrastructure—I 

think regardless of the side of the aisle you sit on, you will hear 

many things from people both on the Indian Affairs and the Energy 

Committee about how important these issues are to the constituents that we represent. 

It is also critical we understand the nominee’s commitment to 

carrying out our obligations through Insular Affairs. As the Chair 

mentioned, there are many issues that we will get to in the Q&A. 

But I would like to bring up a few issues as it relates to the Pacific Northwest. There are issues where climate has caused greater 

impacts on both drought and fire damage. This committee has undertaken bipartisan efforts to move forward on both of those issues, 

collaborative efforts to make sure in both Washington and Oregon 

we are doing all that we can to plan for better resource management of our water supply and build capacity for the future. And we 

have reached consensus here in the Senate as well on ways to stop 

fire borrowing and move forward on what are fuel reduction policies that would better serve our Federal public lands. 

I would also mention of particular importance to all of us in the 

Pacific Northwest the important pending reauthorization, or recommitment, of the Columbia River Treaty, the management of our 

Federal hydro system between the United States and Canada. It 

needs a lot of attention and direction, and we hope that we will 

have a chance to ask you questions about that as well. 

So thank you, Madam Chair. I again congratulate the nominee 

and look forward to hearing from him and his wife and meeting his 

family as he makes his introduction. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

We will now turn to the Montana Senators for introduction of our 

nominee. Recognizing your seat on the committee here, Senator 

Daines, we will turn to you, and then hear from Senator Tester to 

introduce the nominee to be Secretary of the Interior. 

Senator Daines. 

STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE DAINES, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

MONTANA 

Senator DAINES. Madam Chair Murkowski, Ranking Member 

Cantwell, thank you. It is truly my great honor to introduce a fellow Montanan, an American hero, and a good friend of mine, ConVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:32 May 02, 2017 Jkt 023615 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A615.XXX A615

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gressman Ryan Zinke, and support his confirmation to the position 

of Interior Secretary of our new President, Donald J. Trump. 

Notice you have the entire Montanan congressional delegation 

before you today. We have both of Montana’s Senators, one who is 

a Republican and one who is a Democrat. 

You know, I first met Ryan in 1979 when we were both high 

school students growing up in Montana. In fact, we were in Dillon, 

Montana, for Boys State—Ryan from Whitefish High School, and I 

was representing Bozeman High School. He was captain of the 

soon-to-be undefeated state champion Whitefish Bulldogs football 

team. He was also president of his class. 

After high school, Ryan went on to the University of Oregon 

where he was on a full scholarship as a starting athlete for the Oregon Ducks, their football team, where he would win numerous 

awards for outstanding academic as well as athletic performance. 

He majored in geology, and it is a subject matter that I know has 

served him well in serving the people of Montana. 

Ryan then enlisted in the United States Navy. Ryan Zinke is a 

U.S. Navy SEAL commander whose assignments include the elite 

SEAL Team Six, and part of that tenure was serving under General Mattis as Commander of Joint Special Forces in Iraq at the 

height of insurgent activity. I would like to highlight Ryan’s experience as a SEAL, because Navy SEALs never quit. They do not 

know the definition of the word because they never do. Navy 

SEALs also do not fail. They die trying. 

It is that work ethic that Ryan Zinke brings with him to every 

mission he takes, whether it is in the military, in the United States 

Congress or at the Department of Interior. 

During his 23 years of service as a SEAL, Ryan conducted special 

operations on four continents. He trained and mentored thousands 

of men and women, and he made sure our troops were as prepared 

and as safe as absolutely possible when conducting these no-fail 

missions around the globe. 

He was also the guy who the Navy called upon to go into units 

and see how they could be improved. Whether it was looking at 

new advancements in technology so our Special Forces could invade 

new landscapes undetected by the enemy or reviewing existing 

processes and implementing new policies that our ground force 

commanders and headquarters could communicate more efficiently 

during combat, Ryan Zinke has always been a trusted leader of the 

most demanding missions, and it will be no different at the Department of the Interior. 

As the Deputy and Acting Commander of Joint Special Forces in 

Iraq in 2004, Ryan led a combined force of special operators 

through the streets of Fallujah as the forward Commander at the 

height of insurgent terrorist activity in what can only be described, 

and I quote, ‘‘as a warehouse of death.’’ Ryan was charged with implementing a strategy utilizing tens of thousands of personnel, both 

military and civilian, to advance our mission, and he coordinated 

with other branches, nations and government agencies to achieve 

diplomatic and military missions. 

Ryan earned two Bronze Stars and many other awards for his 

service to our great nation. We should also be thankful to his wife, 

Lola, and their children for their service. I might add, apples do not 


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fall far from the tree. Ryan’s daughter, who is sitting beside him, 

was a Navy diver, and his son-in-law is also a Navy SEAL. 

Following his retirement from the Navy after 23 years of honorable service to our nation, Ryan came back to Montana and he continued to serve, because Ryan ran for and he won a seat in our 

State Senate and then as Montana’s sole Representative for the 

United States House. In fact, he was the first Navy SEAL ever 

elected to the U.S. Congress. 

Ryan has been a strong supporter of conservationists as well as 

responsible natural resource development and increased recreation 

access on our public lands. You see, Ryan grew up 30 minutes from 

Glacier National Park. I grew up 60 minutes from Yellowstone National Park. We both understand the importance of our national 

parks. In fact, Ryan and I have shared a Mackenzie boat together, 

fly-fishing on one of Montana’s many blue-ribbon trout streams. 

Ryan is intimately familiar with the vast jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior because he has lived it. He has seen his 

own hometown suffer due to bad government policies that hurt 

rural communities like Libby, like Malta, like Colstrip, that depend 

on our public land access. 

After all, Ryan is a born and bred Montanan who knows that we 

must strike that right balance between conservation and responsible energy development, and he understands that one-size-fits-all 

policies, like we see coming from Washington, D.C., never work for 

real America. 

Ryan Zinke is smart. He has got Montana horse sense. He is the 

guy you want in your corner, whether you are fighting in the 

streets of Fallujah for your life or fighting on the floor of Congress 

for your livelihood. He listens, and he fights for what he believes 

in. I have no doubt he will be a fighter for America, for our public 

lands, as the next Secretary of the Interior. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Daines, we appreciate your 

comments and sharing all that with us. 

Senator Tester, thank you for joining us here at the committee, 

and please, if you will, proceed with your introduction. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JON TESTER, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

MONTANA 

Senator TESTER. It is, indeed, a pleasure, and I want to thank 

you, Chairwoman Murkowski and Ranking Member Cantwell, distinguished members of this committee, for allowing me to be here 

today, because it is an honor today to participate and introduce a 

decorated Navy veteran and fellow public servant lucky enough to 

represent the people of the great State of Montana, the Treasure 

State, the last best place. 

Before our time here, both Congressman Zinke and I had the 

pleasure of serving in the Montana Senate, albeit not at the same 

time. So I want to thank him again for answering the call to serve 

our great nation. 

I believe it is very important for someone who knows the West 

to serve as Interior Secretary. The job of Interior Secretary is incredibly important, especially today as America’s public lands come 

under attack by folks who want individual states to manage them, 


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which is the first step to selling off our public lands to the highest 

bidder. 

It falls on this committee to ask Congressman Zinke specific 

questions about how he views the responsibilities of Interior Secretary and how he will push back on this Administration with his 

perspective, his Montana perspective, whenever necessary, things 

like public lands, keeping public lands in public hands for our kids 

and grandkids, a very important issue at this moment in time; 

things like the deferred maintenance and backlog wreaking havoc 

on our national park system; things like the Land and Water Conservation Fund, how to work with Congress and this Administration to ensure full and devoted funding to initiatives like that visionary LWCF, Land and Water Conservation Fund; as the Chairwoman pointed out, things like trust responsibilities in Indian 

country, and the ranking member as well, for America’s sovereign 

Indian nations; and, of course, resource development, how to responsibly manage our public lands for energy and resource development and how to balance that with respect to clean water and 

clean air and wildlife and the habitat that supports them. 

I am particularly encouraged by the Congressman’s support for 

protecting the gateway to Yellowstone National Park. Just recently, 

when a mining company proposed to drill just a few miles from the 

doorstep of this nation’s first national park, the Congressman 

joined me and local businesses and community leaders to protect 

our outdoor economy. 

Of course, there are issues that the Congressman and I do not 

see eye to eye, but if he provides you with the answers that he has 

provided to me, I expect you will find that he is well-equipped to 

hold this post with accountability. 

As a westerner, I know what is at stake, so I am honored to introduce Congressman Zinke to this committee. I trust that a Navy 

SEAL, as always, will shoot straight. 

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Tester. Thank you both for 

being here and providing introductions for our nominee. 

With that, Representative Zinke, if you will come forward. Before 

asking you to begin your opening statement and introducing your 

family, I will ask that we proceed with administering the oath, 

which is customary in hearings such as this one. Then I am going 

to ask three questions, again, customary to operations within this 

committee. 

So the rules of the committee, which apply to all nominees, require they be sworn in, in connection with their testimony. So 

please raise your right hand. 

[Witness sworn.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Before you begin your statement, I will ask you 

three questions that we address to each nominee before the committee. 

Will you be available to appear before the committee and other 

congressional committees to represent departmental positions and 

respond to issues of concern to the Congress? 

Mr. ZINKE. I will. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are you aware of any personal holdings, investments, or interests that would constitute a conflict or create an apVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:32 May 02, 2017 Jkt 023615 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A615.XXX A615

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pearance of such a conflict, should you be confirmed and assume 

the office to which you have been nominated by the President? 

Mr. ZINKE. Madam Chairman, my investments, personal holdings, and other interests have been reviewed by both myself and 

the appropriate ethics counselors within the Federal Government. 

I have taken all appropriate action to avoid any conflicts of interest, and there are no conflicts of interest or appearances thereof, 

to my knowledge. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Final question, are you involved or do you have any assets that 

are held in blind trust? 

Mr. ZINKE. I do not. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Representative Zinke. You may proceed with introduction of your family and your opening statement, 

and welcome to the committee. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. RYAN ZINKE, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FOR 

MONTANA 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Ranking Member 

Cantwell, and members of the committee. Thank you also Montana 

Senators Tester and Daines for their kind remarks, leadership and 

continued service on behalf of our great Treasure State. 

It is an honor to appear before this esteemed Senate Committee 

on Energy and Natural Resources. 

Before beginning my remarks, I would like to introduce and recognize members of my family who have joined me today. My wife, 

Lolita, who is also a member of President-elect’s Hispanic Advisory 

Council; my two grandchildren, Matilda and Charlotte; my daughter, Jennifer; and, her husband, Jack. 

The CHAIRMAN. Welcome. 

Mr. ZINKE. And for the record, I did tell my daughter, ‘‘Don’t join 

the Navy and don’t marry a Navy SEAL.’’ And she did both. 

[Laughter.] 

My sons, Wolfgang and Konrad, are back at school and hopefully 

studying today, so they will not be with us. 

As a son of a plumber and a kid who grew up in a small timber 

town and railroad town in Whitefish near Glacier Park, I am humbled to be before you as the President-elect’s designee for Secretary 

of the Interior. I am also deeply humbled because of the great responsibility the position holds to be the steward of our majestic 

lands, the champion of our great Indian nations and the manager 

and voice of our diverse wildlife. 

Upfront, I am an unapologetic admirer of Teddy Roosevelt and 

believe he had it right when he placed under Federal protection 

millions of our acres of Federal lands and set aside much of it as 

our national forests. Today, those lands provide Americans the opportunity to hike, fish, camp, recreate and enjoy the great outdoors. 

It was on these lands that my father taught me to hunt and fish, 

and the Boy Scouts taught me the principles of environmental 

stewardship and the importance of public access. It is also on these 

lands that many communities, like the community I grew up in, 

rely on to harvest timber, mine and to provide our nation with critical energy. 


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Without question, our public lands are America’s treasures and 

are rich in diversity. I fully recognize and appreciate there are 

lands that deserve special recognition and are better managed 

under the John Muir model of wilderness, where man has a light 

touch and is an observer. I also fully recognize the preponderance 

of our Federal holdings are better suited under the Pinchot model 

of multiple use, using best practices, sustainable policies and objective science. 

During the recent centennial of our National Park Service, I 

found myself at a ceremony at Yellowstone National Park, our first 

national park established by Congress and signed into law by 

President Ulysses S. Grant on March 1, 1872. 

As I enjoyed the celebration under the famous Roosevelt Arch, I 

could not help but notice the words etched on the stone above, ‘‘For 

the benefit and enjoyment of the people.’’ I also could not help but 

notice on the plaque on the side, it said ‘‘Erected by Congress.’’ 

When I saw that, I thought this is the perfect policy of land that 

our great nation should uphold. 

In order to have great deeds and accomplish great things, both 

sides have to work together. Higher purpose can only be achieved 

by both sides coming together for higher purpose. In a nutshell, 

that is my commitment to you. 

If confirmed, I will work with each of you to ensure our public 

lands reflect higher purpose, so that our children’s children, my 

granddaughters’ children, can look back and say we did it right. 

I have almost met every member of this committee, and I understand that each state is different. I also understand that issues 

within your state are different and you have different priorities, 

but I am confident that we can work together to get the job done. 

When asked about what my goals might be, I would say there are 

three immediate tasks. 

The first is to restore trust and working with, rather than 

against, local communities and states. I fully recognize that there 

is distrust, anger and even hatred against some Federal management policies. Being a listener and a listening advocate rather than 

a deaf adversary is a good start. 

Second is to prioritize the estimated $12.5 billion in backlog of 

maintenance and repair of our national parks. The President-elect 

is committed to a jobs and infrastructure bill, and I am committed 

and need your help in making sure that bill includes our national 

treasures. 

Third, to ensure that the professionals in the front line, that is 

our managers and rangers, have the right tools, the right resources 

and the flexibility to make the right decisions to give a voice to the 

people they represent. 

As a former Montana State Senator and current Congressman, 

I have learned a lot since I was a SEAL in the deserts of Iraq. To 

accomplish my mission as Secretary of Interior, if confirmed, I 

know that I am going to need your help. I am going to need your 

confidence and even perhaps your prayers. 

I look forward to answering your questions and, if confirmed, 

representing the interests of our great nation in giving a voice to 

all Americans, to include our great Indian nations, on how we manage, sustain our public lands and the treasures they contain. 


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Madam Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and this committee, and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Zinke follows:] 

CONGRESSMAN RYAN ZINKE BEFORE THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND

NATURAL RESOURCES, JANUARY 17, 2017 

Thank you Madam Chairman, Ranking Member Cantwell, and members of the 

Committee. Thank you also Montana Senators Tester and Daines for your kind remarks, leadership, and continued service on behalf of the Treasure State and our 

great Nation. It is an honor to appear before the Senate Committee on Energy and 

Natural Resources. 

Before I begin my remarks, I would like to recognize the members of my family 

who have joined me today. My wife Lolita who is a member of President-elect’s National Hispanic Advisory Council, my daughter Jennifer and her husband Jack, and 

my two granddaughters Matilda and Charlotte. I told my daughter two things: Don’t 

join the Navy and don’t marry a Navy SEAL. I am proud to say that she ignored 

my advice, was a Navy Diver and married a Navy SEAL. I am very proud of her. 

My sons Wolfgang and Konrad have returned to school and I hope are studying 

today. 

As a son of a plumber and a kid who grew up in a small timber and railroad town 

next to Glacier National Park in Montana, I am humbled to be before you as the 

President-elect’s designee for Secretary of the Interior. I am also humbled because 

of the great responsibility the position holds to be the steward of majestic public 

lands, the champion of our great Indian nations, and the manager and voice of our 

diverse wildlife. 

Upfront, I am an unapologetic admirer of Teddy Roosevelt and believe he had it 

right when he placed under federal protection millions of acres of federal lands and 

set aside much of it as National forests. Today, much of those lands provide Americans the opportunity to hike, fish, camp, recreate and enjoy the great outdoors. It 

was on those lands that my father taught me to fish and hunt, and the Boy Scouts 

taught me the principles of environmental stewardship and the importance of public 

access. It is also these lands that many communities, like the town I grew up in, 

rely on to harvest timber, mine, and to provide our nation with energy. Without 

question, our public lands are America’s treasure and are rich in diversity. 

I fully recognize and appreciate that there are lands that deserve special recognition and are better managed under the John Muir model of wilderness, where man 

is more of an observer than an active participant. I also recognize that the preponderance of our federal holdings are better suited to be managed under the Pinchot 

model of multiple use using best practices, sustainable policies, and objective 

science. 

During the recent centennial of our National Park Service, I found myself at the 

ceremony at Yellowstone National Park, our first National Park established by Congress and signed into law by President Ulysses S. Grant on March 1, 1872. As I 

enjoyed the celebration under the famous Roosevelt arch, I could not help but notice 

the words etched in the stone at the top of the arch ‘‘For the benefit and enjoyment 

of the people.’’ And, on the side of the right pillar was a plaque with the words ‘‘Created by Act of Congress.’’ I thought ‘‘What a perfect symbol’’ of what our land policy 

in a Nation as great as ours should be. The lesson here is this. It takes both sides 

to create an arch that serves higher purpose and that higher purpose is best 

achieved through the approval and consent of Congress. In a nutshell, that is my 

commitment to you. If confirmed, I will work with each of you to ensure the use 

of our public lands reflects higher purpose so that our children’s children can look 

back and say ‘‘we did it right’’. I have met with almost every member of the Committee and understand that each state is different, and you have different priorities 

and issues. I am confident we can work together to get the job done. 

When asked about what my goals might be, I would say there are three immediate tasks. 

The first is to restore trust by working with rather than against local communities and states. I fully recognize that there is distrust, anger, and even hatred 

against some federal management policies. Being a listening advocate rather than 

a deaf adversary is a good start. 

Second, is to prioritize the estimated 12.5 billion dollars in backlog of maintenance and repair in our National Parks. The President elect is committed to a jobs 

and infrastructure bill, and I am going to need your help in making sure that bill 

includes shoring up our Nation’s treasures. 


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And third, to ensure the professionals on the front line, our rangers and field 

managers, have the right tools, right resources, and flexibility to make the right decisions that give a voice to the people they serve. 

As a former Montana State Senator and current Congressman, I have learned a 

lot since I was a SEAL in the deserts of Iraq. To accomplish my mission as Secretary of Interior, I know that I am going to need your help, confidence, and perhaps 

even prayers. I look forward to answering your questions and, if confirmed, representing the interests of our great nation and giving a voice to all Americans, to 

include our great Indian Nations, on how we manage and sustain our public lands 

and treasures they contain. 

Madam Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the Committee 

today, and I look forward to your questions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Congressman Zinke. 

I could not see her when you were seated in front, but I would 

also like to recognize the Representative from American Samoa 

who is with us today, Congresswoman Radewagen. It is good to 

have you here. Obviously, there is a great deal of interest in that 

aspect of the jurisdiction coming out of the Interior Department. 

Congressman, I would like to talk about land management. You 

and I have had a good deal of conversation about the necessity to 

manage our lands and manage them well. If confirmed, you are 

going to be responsible for managing over 245 million surface acres 

and 700 million acres of subsurface mineral estate. I think we both 

recognize that is a pretty weighty responsibility. 

Over one-fifth of it is in my state, and that means your land 

management efforts have an overwhelming impact on the State of 

Alaska. We refer to the Secretary of Interior effectively as Alaska’s 

landlord. You are probably the most consequential member of the 

Administration, outside of the President, in terms of issues that we 

work with, so I take this nomination very, very seriously. 

I mentioned in my opening statement, we have had a number of 

disagreements and a very difficult relationship at times with the 

Obama Administration. You have acknowledged that each of our 

states are different. I have walked you through our map and tried 

to outline why we are unique, why we are bigger and better and 

broader and faster and more complicated and more challenging 

than most others. 

So my question to you, very broadly, is how will your approach 

to management of Alaska’s lands be different than what we have 

seen? How will your recognition of the unique aspects of a state 

like Alaska be different in these years going forward? 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you, and thanks for the question. 

As you know, as we visited with each other, Alaska is different 

and I recognize that. As a Navy SEAL, I have spent time in Kodiak, and I have spent time in the Aleutian chain. I have not spent 

a lot of time in the interior. 

But clearly, what has happened is folks in Alaska are upset. 

They feel like the management, they have no voice. If you are looking at the timber assets along the coast in the southern part of 

Alaska, those timber assets, forest fires occur, and yet, we cannot 

harvest a tree. Inland, your pipeline is down at 40 percent. Engineering-wise, there are a lot of issues when your pipeline, the backbone of Alaska’s energy, is that low. 

A lot of it, I think, has to do with these cost-savings mechanisms 

put in place. What has occurred is we have taken the field and we 

have made those in the field—and have taken away the resources 


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and keep on bringing them up to consolidation, layers and layers 

and layers. A lot of these decisions should be made on the field on 

the ground by people that are closest to the problem. 

These are people that live in communities. A lot of the BLM 

managers live in the communities, and they understand the communities have to have a voice. 

And I do recognize Alaska is different. It needs to be handled differently because of the size. I also understand, and thanks to your 

maps, I clearly understand that private land equity in Alaska is so 

incredibly small. Your resources are incredibly large, and the great 

people of Alaska need to be a partner in the proper development 

of those resources. 

The CHAIRMAN. We look forward to a partnership and an even 

partnership, because when it comes to consultation, when it comes 

to truly listening to Alaskans, it just feels that we have fallen upon 

deaf ears. So a more welcoming dialogue I think is what we are anticipating going forward. 

When we talk about the resources of Alaska and Alaska’s willingness to share those resources with the rest of the country, and 

truly the world, one of our great assets is our oil reserves that we 

have up north. As you mentioned, our Trans-Alaska Pipeline is 

running three-quarters empty. It now carries a little less than 

500,000 barrels a day, and it is not due to lack of resource. It is, 

instead, a lack of permission to access those resources. 

Will you commit to a formal review of all of the Obama Administration’s actions that took resource-bearing lands and waters in 

Alaska effectively off the table, including the decisions that specifically prevented the leasing of those lands and those waters for development, and determine whether or not they can be reversed? 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes. I think the President-elect has said that we want 

to be energy independent. As a former Navy SEAL, I think I have 

been to 63 countries in my lifetime. I can guarantee you it is better 

to produce energy domestically under reasonable regulation than 

watch it be produced overseas with no regulation. I have seen the 

consequences of what happens when you do not have any regulation in the Middle East. 

We can do it right. The backbone of our environmental policies 

has been NEPA and I am a strong supporter of NEPA, but we also 

have to understand that we need an economy. 

And, look, if we do not have an economy as a country, then the 

rest of it does not matter, because we are not going to be able to 

afford a strong military, nor are we going to be able to afford to 

keep the promises we have made as a great nation. And we have 

made a lot of promises to education, to our children’s future, to infrastructure, to Social Security. All of that takes an economy that 

is moving forward, and energy is a part of that economy and Alaska is a critical part of that economy. 

Alaska is different for a reason. You are blessed with great resources. You are blessed with great recreation, a little cold in the 

winter, but it is not Palm Springs. 

The CHAIRMAN. You are from Montana. You can handle it. 

Mr. ZINKE. We can handle it. 

But, yes, I think we need to be prudent. And always, I think we 

need to review things to make sure we are doing it right, because, 


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over time, the government keeps on getting bigger and bigger, the 

bureaucracy gets larger and larger. And we can get something 

done. I think, as a nation, we should look at everything with an 

objective eye to get things done. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I will now turn to Senator Cantwell, 

the Ranking Member. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Congressman Zinke. Thank you 

for your willingness to serve. 

Obviously, going from Congressman to then Secretary of the Interior means a different kind of portfolio, so I was hoping in this 

first round, because there are so many people who want to ask 

questions, if I could cover three issues quickly with you, and then 

give our colleagues a chance to ask questions. 

First, obviously, you, representing the district that you do in 

Montana, have made a lot of statements about coal, and I just, for 

the record, want to understand where you are. Do you believe the 

Administration does have a right and should have a review to update information about our coal program? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think always transparency is important. Any Administration has the right to look at it and ask the right questions 

in all of our energy fields. 

Senator CANTWELL. So you would not stop the review that is underway now? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think a review is good. I do not know the specifics 

of that review, but I think we should always look at our energy 

portfolio with an objectiveness because it is important. 

Senator CANTWELL. You do not have an objection to taxpayers 

getting a fair value? 

Mr. ZINKE. Ma’am, I think taxpayers should always get a fair 

value. 

Senator CANTWELL. Including on coal. 

Mr. ZINKE. Including our coal, wind, all-of-the-above, ma’am. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

And on the GAO statement about surety, making sure that coal 

companies have the capability, just as other energy companies do, 

do you support that as well? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think on the GAO—again, I have not read the specifics, but if it is a question that involves bonding—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Bonding. Yes. 

Mr. ZINKE. I am from Montana where we have Decker. We have 

a lot of coal mines, strip mines and stuff, and I think bonding is 

important. 

I am also from a state that, in the 1800s, mined gold by going 

up and down streambeds and taking all the material and dumping 

it upside down. I do not think we want to go back to those days. 

Some of the reclamation problems we have and face in the West 

still are not repaired. Teddy Roosevelt had the courage to look 100 

years forward. I think we need to have the courage today to look 

100 years forward and look back and say we did it right. 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, I hope that was a great endorsement 

of the Stream Protection Rule. But on the Teddy Roosevelt point, 

do you support making the Land and Water Conservation program 

permanent? 


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Mr. ZINKE. I do. I think land and water conservation has been 

important to Montana, certainly in many of the states. I do think 

we should look at it. If you are in the Gulf States, I understand 

their point, that the revenue comes from all offshore, and very little 

of it goes within the states that are affected most by the offshore 

industry. So I do think we need to look at revenues and evening 

out the revenue source. I think always you should look at programs 

to make sure more revenue goes to projects, so making sure the bureaucracy has not grown over time. And lastly, I do think the 

states should have a say. The local communities should have a say 

of where those funds go, more of a say than they sometimes do 

today. 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, that in and of itself might lead me to 

go down a different line of questioning as it relates to making sure 

Federal lands stay in Federal hands, as your colleague from Montana said. But I want to cover the park area backlog and budget. 

As I mentioned in my opening statement, we faced the 100-year 

anniversary. The Teddy Roosevelt theme that you have struck is 

very important because, as I mentioned, we are talking about billions of dollars to our economy from the outdoor access to our public lands. 

Do you think we need to go further than what we have done in 

supporting our national parks and getting rid of the maintenance 

backlog? 

Mr. ZINKE. I do. I feel very strongly about it, because, as you 

point out, a lot of our national parks this last year are at capacity. 

We have had record numbers. So looking forward, what do we do 

about it? A lot of it is repairing the roads, backlogs, trails, but also 

looking at the public lands around the park to make sure we look 

at those trail systems, to make sure that the restrooms are clean, 

to make sure the sewer systems work. 

When you are talking about a $12.5 billion backlog, I was over 

at the transition office, and oddly enough, I looked at the park in 

front of the Department of Interior, the very park that everyone 

working in the Department of Interior goes by every day. The fountains do not even work, and they are in need of repair. 

Then you start asking, well, what about the rest of Washington, 

D.C.? Well, it turns out that very few fountains work. Then you 

look at the bridge, the Memorial Bridge, that goes across to Arlington. I guess that need is $150 million, so we better get on it. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. We are out of time, but I will 

come back to this question, because there has been a lot of discussion about your viewpoint and resolutions in platforms and House 

votes about Federal land staying in Federal hands, but we will 

come back to that in the second round. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

Senator Hoeven. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I would like to thank you, Congressman Zinke, for your service 

to the country and the United States Navy and for your willingness 

to serve as Secretary of Interior. Also, I want to thank your family 

for their commitment to serve as well and for being here. 


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Talk for a minute, if you would, about a balanced approach to 

multiple use, many different resources and many different constituencies that you have to deal with, the national parks, but also public lands, Native American affairs. 

For example, in the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management, you 

manage 245 million surface acres, 700 million acres of subsurface 

minerals. Talk about how you manage that in a way that is balanced and multiple use. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, multiple use, in the spirit of Roosevelt, means 

you can use it for multiple purposes. I am particularly concerned 

about public access. I am a hunter, a fisherman. 

But multiple use is also making sure that what you are going to 

do, you know, and you go in with both eyes open. That means sustainability. That means that it does not have to be in conflict if you 

have recreation over mining. You just have to make sure that you 

understand what the consequence of each of those uses are. 

It is our public land, and what I have seen most recently is our 

access is being shut off, roads are being shut off. We are all getting 

older, and when you do not have access to our hunting areas, traditional fishing areas, then it makes it an elite sport. And I am particularly concerned about the elitism of our traditional hunting, 

fishing and snowmobiles. 

So making our public lands accessible and in the spirit of multiple use. Single use, if you look at the Muir model of some of our 

national parks in some areas, I agree. There are some areas that 

need to be set aside that are absolutely appropriate for man to be 

an observer. There are special places in our country that deserve 

that recognition. But a lot of it is traditional uses of what we find 

in North Dakota and Montana where you can hunt and you can 

fish, you can drill an oil well, make sure there is a reclamation 

project, make sure there is a permit, make sure there is NEPA. 

If you are going to do something that is more intrusive, make 

sure you monitor the water. Everyone enjoys clean water, and we 

should. I do not think they are necessarily in conflict. I think you 

have to do it right. 

Senator HOEVEN. Well, as somebody who likes to hunt and fish, 

I appreciate that answer very much. 

Also in North Dakota, we have had a real challenge with the Dakota Access Pipeline protest. You and I have talked about it. State 

and local law enforcement has worked very hard to keep the peace 

and to keep people safe, but we need Federal law enforcement help 

as well. In your case, that is going to mean BIA law enforcement. 

So my question is, if you are confirmed, will you ensure that BIA 

law enforcement works with state and local law enforcement to resolve the situation, to keep people safe and to make sure that the 

rule of law is followed? 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, sir, and we talked about it in your office. If confirmed, I am going to be a very busy man traveling. I am going to 

travel to Utah, travel to Alaska, and travel to North Dakota. Those 

are three impending problems that we need to resolve quickly. 

I have great respect for the Indian nations. I am adopted Assiniboine. The last time the Sioux nations all got together, I would say 

General Custer probably would say that was not a good issue. 


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So you look at this and there are deep cultural ties. There is a 

feeling like that we have not been a fair consult and a fair partner. 

So I think we need to listen to that voice. 

And that is part of the trust, is that, outside of Washington, 

D.C., when you start going west to North Dakota, there is a lot of 

anger. There is a lot of mistrust. Not everywhere, but enough 

where I am concerned. I am concerned that we need to be better 

partners. We need to work together. 

We need to work together as a Congress. We all rise and fall on 

the same tide, and we all love our public lands. And the duty of 

the Department of Interior, as a Secretary, is to make sure we 

have broad consensus of what we are doing. And every state is different. 

Senator HOEVEN. All right. Thank you. 

My final question is one-size-fits-all. Too often in Federal Government we see a one-size-fits-all versus empowering states and 

people at the local level to do what makes the most sense, given 

their part of the country. I would ask you to just give your opinion 

on the one-size-fits-all versus working with states and localities 

and tribes to do what works across the country. 

Mr. ZINKE. I would characterize it, the view from the Potomac is 

a lot different from the Missouri. And you do need to listen to local 

folks and state, because they live there. The consequence of an action that is one-size-fits-all affects real people. I do think you need 

to have a voice. You need to listen, and you make sure that you 

involve the communities at the lowest level. 

Again, some cases, you know, we have a lot of BLM assets. I 

know a lot of rangers, and there is a lot of frustration on the frontline too. They do not feel they are empowered to make a decision. 

Their kids go to the same schools. But when they do not have the 

power or the flexibility or the resources to make the decision, everything is four or five layers above, that is part of what we face. 

We have to re-incentivize the line, remove some of the middle 

management, and get them out where they are necessary. That is 

the front line, and that is from basic 101 as being a SEAL. If your 

front line is not happy, and that is the chiefs and the sergeant, 

then I can tell you the rest of the force is not doing very well either. 

So in this case, the frontline of BLM and the Park Service needs 

to be shored up with the flexibility to make the right call. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Congressman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

We will next turn to Senator Sanders. I would just advise committee members, we have always operated under this early bird 

rule, and perhaps there has been some discussion about what really counts for early bird, but I am going by what the Clerk has observed when members came in. So Senator Sanders will go next, 

and he will be followed by Senator Gardner. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And, 

Congressman Zinke, thanks very much for your willingness to 

serve. I have three areas that I want to touch on. 

President-elect Trump has suggested—more than suggested— 

stated in his view that climate change is a ‘‘hoax.’’ Now I know that 

you are not here to be Administrator of the EPA or Secretary of 


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Energy, but the issue of climate change is in fact very important 

for issues that the Department of the Interior deals with. 

Is President-elect Trump right? Is climate change a hoax? 

Mr. ZINKE. The best answer is three things. 

First of all, the climate is changing. That is undisputable. I am 

from Glacier National Park. 

Senator SANDERS. You do not have any more glaciers there, huh? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, and I have seen glaciers over the period of my 

time recede. As a matter of fact, when my family and I have eaten 

lunch on Grinnell Glacier, the glacier has receded during lunch. 

Senator SANDERS. If you could, is the President-elect right? Is climate change a hoax? 

Mr. ZINKE. If I can continue, two more points, and I will make 

it short. 

The second thing is man has had an influence. I think that is 

undisputable as well. 

So climate is changing. Man has influenced. I think where there 

is the debate on it is what that influence is, what can we do about 

it. And as Secretary of the Department of the Interior, I will inherit, if confirmed, the USGS. 

We have great scientists there. I am not a climate scientist expert, but I can tell you I will become a lot more familiar with it, 

and it will be based on objective science. 

I do not believe it is a hoax. I believe we—— 

Senator SANDERS. You do not believe it is a hoax? 

Mr. ZINKE. No. I believe we should be prudent to be prudent. 

That means, I do not know definitively. There is a lot of debate on 

both sides of the aisle. 

Senator SANDERS. Actually, there is not a whole lot of debate 

now. The scientific community is virtually unanimous that climate 

change is real and causing devastating problems. There is debate 

on this committee but not within the scientific community. 

Next question, but dealing with climate change, if climate change 

is already causing devastating problems, should we allow fossil fuel 

to be drilled on public lands? 

Mr. ZINKE. Again, we need an economy and jobs, too. In my experience, I have probably seen 63 different countries. I have seen 

what happens when you do not have—— 

Senator SANDERS. I do not mean to be rude, but I am taking your 

answer to be, yes, we should allow fossil fuel to be drilled on public 

lands. 

Mr. ZINKE. I am an all-of-the-above energy—I want to be honest 

with you. I am all-of-the-above. 

Senator SANDERS. Will you encourage wind and solar on public 

lands? 

Mr. ZINKE. I will encourage, absolutely, wind and solar. All-ofthe-above. I think the better solution, going forward, is all-of-theabove energy. 

Senator SANDERS. Some of my conservative friends believe that 

the day should come when we should privatize the National Park 

System. What is your feeling on that? 

Mr. ZINKE. I want to be clear on this point. I am absolutely 

against transfer or sale of public land. 

Senator SANDERS. Good. That is a clear answer. 


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Mr. ZINKE. Cannot be any more clear. 

Senator SANDERS. No, you cannot. Thank you. 

I have had the opportunity in the last year or so to get around 

the country. With that opportunity, I have met with many Native 

American tribes. You discussed this issue. 

I think it is not debatable that, throughout history, including 

today, the United States Government has treated the Native American people with disrespect, has ripped them off, has abrogated 

treaties. And right now, we have, in many Native American communities and reservations, people living in unbelievable poverty, 

incredibly high unemployment rate, youth suicide unspeakably 

high. 

Do you agree with that assertion? And if so, what do you propose 

to do to improve life for the Native American people throughout 

this country? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, I have great respect for the Indian nations, and 

Montana has some of the great nations. The gentleman behind me 

is from the great Crow Nation. 

I think there are three things. Sovereignty should mean something. When we say a Nation is sovereign, it should have weight. 

Secondly—— 

Senator SANDERS. Stay on that one, because you are right. Sovereignty should mean something. What does that mean if you, in 

fact, receive the nomination? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, I can tell you, from the perspective of a Montana Congressman, the paperwork, the bureaucracy within reservations far exceeds what is outside. Perhaps at one time we viewed 

the Indian nations as almost child-like where we had to manage 

every aspect of their affairs, and it has affected their ability for 

self-determination, because we have not—— 

Senator SANDERS. Good. I agree with you. 

Let me just, also, health care and education are serious problems 

on many reservations. Will you take a hard look at those issues 

and try to improve the quality of health care and education for the 

Native American people? 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, I will. And I take it seriously, because I have 

been to Lame Deer, and as bad as the VA is—— 

Senator SANDERS. Well, some of us do not accept that. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, as bad as the VA is, Indian Health in Montana 

is worse. Let me repeat that: It is worse. 

I think when you have individuals that need care that line up, 

and you have only a few doctors, and they do not see the doctor, 

and the next day they come back and they do not see the doctor, 

they do not see the doctor, and the doctor—— 

Senator SANDERS. That is an issue that you are going to address? 

Mr. ZINKE. I am sorry, sir? 

Senator SANDERS. You will address that issue of health care? 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, sir. 

Senator SANDERS. Good. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you very much. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gardner. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member Cantwell. 


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Congressman Zinke, thank you very much for being here today 

and your commitment to service of this nation. And to your family, 

welcome as well. 

I was pleased to hear your comment to Senator Cantwell regarding making the LWCF, Land and Water Conservation Fund, permanent. I believe that LWCF is the most important conservation 

program in this country. Every state has been touched. Every state 

has had iconic landscapes preserved by LWCF for the enjoyment of 

generations to come, and that is extremely important. 

The outdoor recreation economy in Colorado is about $13.2 billion in economic impact, creating over 125,000 jobs in our state. 

LWCF is a very important part of that. Would you reiterate your 

commitment to me that you will work with Congress to make 

LWCF permanent? 

Mr. ZINKE. You have my full commitment. All three of the Montana delegation voted in favor of it. It is an important program, especially in the West. 

In Montana, it is particularly important in public access. The 

checkerboard system out West has made it difficult sometimes to 

transit between Forest Service and BLM, and you need a bridge to 

go between the two, and the LWCF has been important in doing 

that. So I would support that. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you very much. I have always told 

Coloradans that one thing we need to do is have more Colorado in 

Washington and less Washington in Colorado. But one of the 

things I think we can do is maybe take a little bit of Washington 

and make it less Washington. Perhaps we can cure some agencies 

like the BLM of Potomac fever by moving them out of Washington. 

For example, if you just look at the numbers the Congressional 

Research Service uses, the Bureau of Land Management administers roughly 248.3 million acres of public land—248.3 million 

acres; 248.2 million acres are located west of the Mississippi River. 

That is over 99 percent of BLM lands located out West. 

There is no question that having some headquarters out West 

would, I think, vastly improve and result in better policies for 

ranchers, for landowners, for energy producers, for constituents 

who enjoy these lands. 

BLM Planning 2.0 was a great example of how little Washington 

understands about the West and how bureaucrats get in the way 

of how things work in the West, and the one-size-fits-all approach 

has failed public policy. 

Congressman Zinke, do you believe in the notion of putting our 

Federal work force, at least portions of it at the Department of Interior that specialize in public lands initiatives, closer to the lands 

and the people that they affect? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think they should be closer to the land. In some instances in Utah, where you have 67 percent is BLM, you can look 

at different management schemes on it. The Department of Ag has 

stewardship programs. There are a lot of tools that we can use. 

But I think the bottom line is, the decisions oftentimes are better 

at the frontline if you empower your people to do them. There is 

a saying in the military, centralized direction, decentralized execution. That means we should hold true NEPA. We should hold true 


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the values that we believe as a country we should uphold, public 

access, clean air, clean water. 

But how you execute day-to-day operations sometimes, often 

times, it is better if it is done on the frontline. They live it every 

day. 

Senator GARDNER. So your commitment to work with me on moving agencies like BLM to the West—— 

Mr. ZINKE. I am committed to look at our organization acrossthe-board of what we are going to look like as a Department 100 

years from now. 

Roosevelt, I keep going back to Roosevelt because I am a great 

admirer, but I think he did a lot of things right. I mean, Roosevelt 

about 100 years ago decided to take a bold move, and it was not 

particularly supported at the time, not by all parties. But he did 

do a lot which we live in the legacy of Roosevelt today. 

I think we have to be bold and look at what the Department of 

the Interior should look like 100 years from now to better manage 

the problems that we have coming, and there are a lot of problems. 

No doubt, recreation is going to be a bigger piece. They are not 

making any more land. We need to make sure what we are doing 

is appropriate. We need to make sure that clean air, clean water, 

those types of things, again, so my daughter’s children will look 

back and say we did it right. I think that has to be a goal that we 

all share. 

Senator GARDNER. The final question in the time remaining is 

this. If you go into the Colorado State Capitol, there is a saying 

written on the wall that says, ‘‘Here is a land where history is written in water.’’ All the water in Colorado flows out of the state. No 

water flows into the state. So that is an incredibly important part 

of who we are as a state. 

I would like your commitment today to work to protect private 

water rights when it comes to our water rights system, understanding that Federal overreach into water is dangerous for our 

municipalities, our industries, and our individual water right holders, but also to continue to work with us on permits and water 

storage projects as we work along with water conservation. The 

need to store more water in the West is real. 

So we need additional help protecting water rights from the Federal Government but also being able to store more water for the future enjoyment, growth, development and opportunities in the 

American West. 

Mr. ZINKE. There is no doubt that water today is a commodity 

and will be a more important commodity tomorrow. 

There is a saying in Montana that whiskey is for drinking and 

water is for fighting, because water is incredibly important across 

the West and almost every state. Even Michigan, with their recent 

thing. 

My commitment is to work with you. We are going to have to, 

in part of the infrastructure bill, we are going to have to look at 

water storage. We are going to have to look at better ways to use 

water, relying on it. Some of our aquifers are at risk on that. 

But water, particularly if you are an ag community, a recreation 

community, their water is today an issue. Tomorrow, it is going to 


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be a bigger issue, unless we invest in the infrastructure and policies that make sense for tomorrow. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Heinrich. And he will be followed by 

Senator Alexander. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Congressman Zinke, you said earlier in the hearing that you opposed selling off public lands or turning them over to the states; 

however, on the opening day of the 115th Congress, you voted for 

a House rule that makes it easier to give away our public lands 

based on the idea that those public lands have no financial value, 

no score. How do you square the two things? 

Mr. ZINKE. The vote was a rule vote in the House. That was one 

of many rules. I would characterize it as it was an indicator of how 

upset people are about our land policy at the moment. Particularly 

if you were in Utah, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado in some places, 

people are upset. Idaho, Montana. 

But it has no weight unless it is executed. So I think it is a shot 

across the bow that we have to do something. I started out my remarks by saying my number one is trust. I have to go out there 

and restore trust. The reason why—one of the reasons why people 

want to sell or transfer public land is there is no trust, because 

they feel like they do not have a voice. They feel that they do not 

matter. They should matter. 

Senator HEINRICH. Congressman, if that rule was not part of a 

bigger package, if it stood alone, would you support it? 

Mr. ZINKE. I would not. I think I voted 17 times against either 

transfer or sale of public land or in favor of LWCF. 

Senator HEINRICH. That is a great answer. 

You mentioned that you are a big Teddy Roosevelt fan. Many of 

us are. In 1906, he signed the Antiquities Act. Eighteen states had 

new national monuments established in the past 6 years. 

In my home State of New Mexico, we have two new monuments 

that have already proven to be incredibly popular with local communities and which are already driving economic growth for local 

businesses. Frankly, my Navajo and Pueblo constituents are also 

very supportive of the new Bears Ears National Monument because 

it protects some of the most sacred sites in their historical homeland. 

I have letters here from business owners, sportsmen, faith leaders, county commissioners, and veterans in New Mexico asking for 

your support for the Rio Grande del Norte and Organ MountainsDesert Peaks National Monuments. Madam Chairman, I would just 

ask that you allow me to submit these for the record? 

The CHAIRMAN. They will be included as part of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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Senator HEINRICH. The Antiquities Act is the law of the land, 

and communities in New Mexico are already in the process of developing management plans for those monuments. Will you simply 

commit to working in good faith with these gateway communities, 

including tribal communities, to make sure that these monuments 

are a success, or some might say even to make sure that these 

monuments are great? 

Mr. ZINKE. I will absolutely commit to working with you. There 

are some monuments that are more controversial than others. 

I think a monument, when it falls in a state, I think the state 

should have a say on it. To me, I have always kind of considered 

monuments, as I drive across Montana, a pretty big state, between 

here and Chicago plus 2 miles, when you see a sign that says 

‘‘monument,’’ generally I have always envisioned it as a battlefield, 

a location that deserves special recognition. 

Larger monuments that are millions of acres that do not have 

support of the community, there is no doubt the President has the 

authority to amend a monument. It is always in the papers. It will 

be interesting to see whether the President has the authority to 

nullify a monument. 

But, certainly, my counsel will be—— 

Senator HEINRICH. What is your view on that? 

Mr. ZINKE. Legally, it is untested on it. What I would prefer is, 

again, to work in a collaborative effort with the states. If the states 

like their monuments—and we have talked a great—in the State 

of Maine on it. And if the state is comfortable with the monument 

as it is, and they have a management plan, I think we should work 

with the state and be an advocate. If a state is upset about a 

monument, they had a plan that is different from what was done, 

then I think we should defer a lot of that to the state. 

Senator HEINRICH. Can you point to a sentence within the Antiquities Act, which as you know is very short, that authorizes rescinding a monument? 

Mr. ZINKE. There is no statement that authorizes rescinding. 

And that is—I am not an attorney, thank God. 

Senator HEINRICH. That makes two of us. I would think that we 

are both grateful, and our constituents probably are, too. 

Mr. ZINKE. I would think that if the President would nullify a 

monument, it would be challenged, and then a court would determine whether or not the legal framework allows it or not. 

I would hope the right path, if we work with the states where 

that monument is—and I think we all have benefited from a lot of 

our monuments. Certainly, in Montana, the Battlefield of Little Big 

Horn has been enormously important to the State of Montana and 

the Crow Nation, and they are very happy with it, although it 

needs some work. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Congressman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Alexander. 

Senator ALEXANDER. Thanks, Madam Chairman. 

Congressman Zinke, and to your family, welcome. I am impressed with your record of service, and with you and your views, 

and I look forward to supporting you. I think you have a chance 

to be a terrific Secretary of the Interior. 


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Thirty-two years ago, President Reagan asked me to head up 

something called the President’s Commission on Americans Outdoors, and we worked on it for two years looking ahead for a generation to see what our outdoor recreation opportunities should be. 

The main one conclusion I came to was that there ought to be 

one policy for the West and one policy for the East, because there 

are so many any differences. This committee is filled with westerners, so let me give you a little bit of an eastern perspective from 

my side. We do not have much Federal land in Tennessee and 

North Carolina, and we like what we have. 

One area that I would ask you is, in the newspaper today, the 

National Park Service has established a panel to review the devastating Chimney Tops fire we had in the Great Smoky Mountain 

National Park so we can learn from it, if there are any lessons to 

prevent such a thing. It is unexpected for us. We are not used to 

that. We have 80 inches of rain a year. This fire started on Chimney Tops and a hurricane blew it in and nearly burned up half of 

Gatlinburg. Will you commit to pay close attention yourself to that 

review so that we can see if there are any lessons to be learned 

for the future? 

Mr. ZINKE. Senator, I will absolutely commit to that. I think it 

is important. I have been to that beautiful park, and have been to 

Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge, and it is a wonderful place and a 

special place in America. And I am glad it is a park. 

I will work with you to make sure we figure out what the road 

work, the best path is forward on making sure that incidents like 

that do not happen again. 

Senator ALEXANDER. Thank you very much. I am very impressed 

with the heroism, really, of those who responded to it, but they too 

want to know what we can do better. 

Now, on the Smokies, the difference between the Smokies and 

Yellowstone or Glacier in your territory is that land was already 

owned by the United States. The Smokies were bought by the people of Tennessee and North Carolina and given to the national 

park. 

And the other difference is we have a lot more visitors because 

of our location, twice as many, for example, as Yellowstone, which 

is such a prized place. Yet, our funding, our appropriation for Yellowstone is more than twice the total funding for the Smokies. And 

because of the restrictions that were established when people gave 

it to the Federal Government, we cannot charge an entrance fee, 

so we have a lot less money to deal with a lot more people. 

Will you, during your time, take a careful look at the allocation 

of funding between the Smokies and the other parks to try to make 

sure that our most visited national park gets its fair share of funding? 

Mr. ZINKE. Senator, we talked about this in your office. And, yes, 

I think we need to look at the formula. Clearly it—again, the 

Smokies are different than other parks. It should be recognized 

that, again, working forward with this committee on the infrastructure bill, we are hoping we can take a big bite out of deferred 

maintenance on infrastructure. There are a number of roads and 

facilities in there. 


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But if we are $12.5 billion behind in our parks, certainly, we as 

a great nation can do better. And it is going to take this committee’s guidance, with the Chairman’s leadership, to make sure that 

that infrastructure is part of the package. 

Senator ALEXANDER. My last question has to do with the recommendations on the Commission on the Americans Outdoors 32 

years ago. We reaffirmed the recommendation of the earlier Rockefeller Commission on the Land and Water Conservation Fund, so 

I hope you will count me in along with other Senators here in 

wanting to help you help to find a way to permanently authorize 

that. It makes a lot of sense to take money from oil and gas exploration, a burden on the environment, and use it for a benefit for 

the environment. It has made sense since the 1960s. 

The problem is, we have a $20 billion backlog that, because of 

our rules, we have not appropriated. So it is important to do that. 

We have found 30 years ago that 80 percent—most outdoor recreation occurs near where we live, and that about 80 percent of us 

live near city parks, not near Yellowstone or Glacier or the Smokies, as we were privileged to grow up. And that is the importance 

of the Land and Water Conservation Fund. 

Another important set of recommendations had to do with land 

trust, greenways and scenic byways, all of which were state and 

local, not Federal. So will you use this opportunity to look ahead 

to another generation and ask the question: What outdoor recreation opportunities will our children and grandchildren have? 

I think you are in a wonderful position to do a follow-up to the 

Commission on Americans Outdoors. This is the 30th anniversary 

of that report, and a generation has passed, and it is time for the 

next look. 

Mr. ZINKE. Which brings up a smaller point about the next generation of millennials. We have to motivate and incentivize outdoor 

activities to teach our millennials the importance of the great outdoors. 

If you look at the numbers, and the demographics are actually 

a little different. The people that are visiting the parks are the 

older generations. So we have to look at new ways of incentivizing 

younger millennials to experience the parks, to experience the outdoors, to teach them the value of our public lands. 

So that is a concern, just looking at numbers for how do we get 

our kids out there enjoying the great outdoors? In many cases, I 

would argue it is better than being in front of the TV watching 

video games. 

The CHAIRMAN. Absolutely. 

Senator Duckworth. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Congressman, welcome. 

In 2013, Mr. Trump tweeted on the issue of military sexual assault by blaming the women who served, and he said in his tweet: 

26,000 unreported sexual assaults in the military, only 230 convictions. What do these geniuses expect when they put men and 

women together? 

Then later in 2016, at the Commander-in-Chief Forum, he defended that tweet and said: ‘‘Well, it is a correct tweet, and there 

are many people that think that is absolutely correct.’’ 


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Following that Commander-in-Chief tweet, that Commander-inChief Forum tweet, you put out a statement of praise for Mr. 

Trump and at no point did you call him out on that tweet, at no 

point did you call on him to apologize for that tweet. 

I wonder, as someone who is about to take charge of a major 

Federal agency with both men and women serving, sometimes in 

extremely rugged conditions, as our rangers do, I wonder what that 

says to the employees of our National Park Service? 

You in fact even more recently defended the President-elect’s 

bragging about his own commitment of sexual assault by dismissing it as locker room talk. And you are now nominated to oversee the National Park Service, which currently has a major sexual 

harassment problem that the House Oversight and Government 

Reform Committee, which I used to sit on, has been investigating 

on a bipartisan basis. 

If confirmed, how can we be sure that you just will not look the 

other way in dealing with this issue of sexual assault at the National Park Service like you did with your own potential boss, the 

President-elect? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, thank you for the question. 

I take issues of sexual assault and harassment absolutely seriously. As you know, as a military commander, the tolerance is zero. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Have you had a conversation with the 

President-elect about his statements? 

Mr. ZINKE. No, Senator, I have not. But I have had conversations 

about the Park Service, and there are problems in the Park Service. There are problems with sexual harassment. There are problems with morale. 

If you look at the Park Service, I mean, who would not want to 

be a ranger? Historically, the job of a ranger in the Park Service 

has been one of the top positions as far as employee satisfaction. 

Today, they rank at the bottom. 

Now, something is going on, whether it is sexual harassment 

that has an influence on it, whether they feel like they do not have 

the flexibility to make decisions, whether they feel there are a lot 

of reasons. But I have to get to the bottom of it, because it is the 

frontline. 

You served, and thank you for your service. You served and you 

understand that if the morale is bad at the frontline, it makes sure 

that mission success is not going to happen. And sexual harassment is part of what is killing morale, I believe. 

But I am going to go out on the frontline and talk and listen to 

what is happening because it is, one, on the sexual harassment 

issue, they have to know from leadership, from the top and the bottom, that we have zero tolerance. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Can you describe a little bit what you will 

do beyond listening, what type of policies you would put into place? 

I have some concerns because you have a history of being willing 

to participate in gimmicks. 

In fact, you cosponsored legislation with Congressman Duncan 

Hunter to require women to register for the draft despite not supporting it yourself because you wanted to send a gimmicky message 

that actually backfired on you, and that bill actually passed and it 


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was—the Republican House leadership had to come to your rescue 

and pull that out of a conference report on the NDAA. 

I am concerned because you yourself have a history of saying 

that women who served in combat provide a distraction and it 

weakens the force. In that debate, I was there that night. I think 

we were both there until well after 3 a.m. You said that the enemy 

do not recognize men and women in uniform, they recognize weaknesses; talking about women and men serving together in combat. 

You know, again, men and women serve in very rugged conditions in the National Park Service, and I just worry that you, with 

a history of being willing to participate in what the Montana Defense Alliance called a reckless piece of legislation, this gimmicky 

bill that you passed that backfired on you, what you are going to 

do when you lead Federal employees at the National Park Service? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think the topic of women serving in the military and 

signing up for Selective Service is not a gimmick. So I would say 

that is a mischaracterization of the importance of the issue. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. But you did introduce a bill that you did 

not support. 

Mr. ZINKE. Because I think it is important for America to have 

that discussion. And during that period, every table around Montana was talking about it. So I do not think it is a gimmick to talk 

about, in open discussion, whether or not women should be part of 

the Selective Service. 

My daughter is a Navy diver, and I have served in combat with 

women. Everyone has a role, as you know. The roles are—— 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Do think that women serving at the 

frontlines of the Park Service weaken that force? 

Mr. ZINKE. Not at all. I think everyone should have the same respect. I think there are jobs that are different. Within the Park 

Service, there are women that I think assume every role. I think 

that is an opportunity that has been given to women long before— 

I am not sure when, but a long time. I think we should be comfortable with that. I certainly am. 

And the issue of gimmicks, again, I do not—as a matter of fact, 

I take offense that discussion about Selective Service is a gimmick. 

I think it deserved our vote, and it deserved a discussion. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. I think that the way you introduced the 

bill was—— 

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator’s time has expired. 

Senator Lee. 

Senator LEE. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Thank you, Congressman, for being here. Thanks for your service 

to our country. We appreciate all that you have done to protect us, 

to keep us safe. 

I agree with what one of my colleagues, Senator Alexander, said 

a minute ago, that public land issues are often very different. 

When you ask people from different states, the reaction they might 

have might differ depending on what part of the country they come 

from. Those who are east of the Mississippi are likely to feel a little 

bit differently than those west of the Mississippi. 

There is reason for this. There are a lot of reasons, but one, in 

particular, has to do with the fact that, of this land that the Federal Government owns, we are talking roughly 30 percent of the 


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land mass in the United States, the overwhelming majority of the 

Federal land is in the Western United States. It affects many in 

the Western United States in a very real, very personal way. Very 

often, it is the poor and middle class who bear the greatest burden 

associated with mismanagement and overreach, when it comes to 

our Federal land. 

For this reason, the seemingly limitless power granted to the 

President of the United States under the Antiquities Act is particularly troubling to some of us. With the stroke of his executive pen, 

the President of the United States can upend communities, can 

change traditional ways of life, change even religious practices and 

lock up hundreds of thousands of acres of land with one action, in 

some cases, over a million acres. 

So to begin, I want to ask you the same question that I asked 

the person who would be your predecessor, if you are confirmed, 

Sally Jewell, currently serving as Secretary of the Interior. Do you 

view local support as a necessary precondition—a condition precedent—we might say, to the creation of a national monument under 

the Antiquities Act? 

Mr. ZINKE. I view it as absolutely critical to have state and local 

support on the monument that they participate in. 

In the case of Salt Lake or Utah, I am concerned about the 

schools and the funding mechanism that the schools are—that has 

been largely taken away, as I understand, so that is a concern. 

But if you start at the local community level, at the grassroots, 

and you build, and there is participation, then we get ahead of the 

problem. As a former military officer, you plan, and planning prevents a lot of miscues in execution. Part of the planning process is 

go out, get community support, make sure your Governor and your 

elected leaders are behind you. And then petition, talk to the President, who makes the decision. And everyone should be on the same 

page or at least about on the same page. 

Senator LEE. I appreciate that, and I hope, Congressman, that if 

you are confirmed to this position, that one of the first things you 

will do is come to Utah. I encourage you to talk to some of the people who have been affected by the monument designation by the 

President on December 28th, when he designated 1.53 million acres 

in southeast Utah in San Juan County, our State’s poorest county, 

against the overwhelming opposition of the local population of San 

Juan County, against the opposition of all six members of our 

State’s congressional delegation, against the opposition of our Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, all of our statewide 

elected officials within the State of Utah. I think what you are 

going to hear from them is, please, Mr. Secretary, do something 

about this. 

So, Congressman, if you are confirmed, will you consider visiting 

Utah and talking to the people affected by this monument designation, and based on what you hear from the affected population, consider having a conversation with President Trump about revisiting 

this unfortunate step? 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you for the question. I am absolutely committed to restoring trust. If confirmed, I have committed to go out 

to Utah first and talk to the Governor, talk to people on the 


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ground, and come back and make a recommendation to the President on that. I think that is important. 

Senator LEE. Thank you. 

Mr. ZINKE. I am going to be a very busy guy. I am going to go 

out to the State of Washington. I am going to go out to Alaska. I 

think I have committed to going everywhere, so I am going to be 

remote. This is going to be a deployment. I apologize to my wife 

in advance, but I will be gone a lot. 

Senator LEE. Thank you, and thank you for your willingness to 

do that. 

I have seconds left, so I will have to forgo the rest of my questions. But I do want to say, in closing, I appreciate you visiting 

with me about this. I want to point out that there is nothing in the 

Antiquities Act that prohibits revisiting. 

I also want to point out there is a distinction between talking 

about who should own and manage public land, those close to it or 

those thousands of miles away from it, and, on the other hand, suggesting that ExxonMobil should set up a drilling rig underneath 

Delicate Arch. That is a strawman argument and not one that anyone that I know of raising this issue wants to advance. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Stabenow. 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome, 

Congressman. 

First, let me just echo concerns that Senator Duckworth said 

about what is happening, in terms of sexual in-office harassment. 

These are very serious. I hope, in addition to listening, you will create a work environment so that victims will be willing to come forward without fear of retaliation, because we are hearing very, very 

serious things related to this. 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, ma’am. You have my absolute commitment. I do 

take it seriously. 

The work environment is incredible. And we have—you know, 

there are 70,000 professional men and women within the Department of the Interior. When you walk in the door in the morning, 

you should absolutely have the right expectation of a work environment that is conducive to success. If there is a culture of sexual 

harassment, that is just flat wrong, and I am going to stamp it out, 

if confirmed. 

Senator STABENOW. We are going to hold you to that. 

Let me switch and, not a surprise, talk about water from a different standpoint. In Michigan, we have a lot of it around us, and 

we like that. We are very concerned about water quality, and certainly, water relates to our economy in very, very big ways. 

In fact, not just in Michigan but we have actually four of us on 

the committee, Senator Portman, Senator Franken, Senator 

Duckworth, and I, who all represent 20 percent of the world’s 

freshwater, and these are very serious issues for us. 

So when we look at, and you and I talked about this in my office, 

various threats to the Great Lakes, one of the big ones relates to 

what is happening in terms of invasive species, including this big 

100-pound fish with no functioning stomach that is something of 

great concern to us. 


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So if confirmed, will you commit to advocating for the necessary 

funding for programs and agencies at Interior, like Fish and Wildlife Service, Geological Survey, that is critical to early detection, 

prevention, and control of invasive species? 

Mr. ZINKE. I will absolutely commit to the right for clean water 

and checking the invasive species. I understand it in Michigan. 

After our conversation, I had the opportunity to look at it in 

more detail. It is a threat. I got the message, and it is a threat. 

Having a 100-pound carp jump out of the water and hit you is a 

big issue, and to make sure that we isolate, eliminate and control 

it. Invasive species is a problem all the way into Hawaii. 

Senator STABENOW. Sure. 

Mr. ZINKE. But we do need to shore up, and part of the President’s infrastructure bill I think is looking at that, on our water 

networks. And part of redoing our water, to make sure, one, our 

water is clean, it is abundant and make sure we protect our watersheds in our different areas, to make sure that invasive species are 

part of those programs. 

Senator STABENOW. Well, and Interior has played an important 

role in a partnership. When you talk about partnerships with agencies, we have had every agency, every department that in any way 

touches on this issue, working together for a number of years now, 

and laser-focused on the question of Asian carp as well as other 

invasive species. 

We have a $7 billion recreational and commercial fishing industry, a $14 billion boating industry. So this is critical for us. 

One of the other areas that is very important in terms of Fish 

and Wildlife and U.S. Geological Survey working together with 

state and local fisheries and natural resource managers relates to 

sharing scientific information. You have talked about working with 

states, working with local communities. These are very, very important areas, and we want decisions made based on science about 

what is really happening. As we look at scientific information being 

shared, if confirmed, will you commit to advocating for funding levels that ensure that the availability and exchange of critical scientific information, without regard to political or philosophical ideology—we need to be focused on science when we look at how to 

address these issues. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, yes, I will, because management decisions 

should be based on objective science. As a geologist, that is step 

one, is you need to know the numbers. If you are going to manage 

an endangered species, what are our numbers that we should have, 

that we strive to? 

Having objective science—and part of the good thing about the 

job, if confirmed, is I do have a lot of very, very talented people 

within the Interior Department that are objective, that want to do 

the right thing, that want to share information. And I want to 

make sure that we do coordinate and open up the channels between the different agencies and public and private institutions 

that have a lot of talent, too. 

There are a lot of people working on these things, but just like 

the Intelligence Community that I am more familiar with, sometimes we get stovepiped, and sometimes the information-sharing is 

not as it should be. 


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Senator STABENOW. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Barrasso. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Representative Zinke, congratulations on your nomination. I look 

forward to working with you. As a westerner, I believe you have 

a unique understanding of the gravity of the position that you have 

been nominated to fill. 

The Department of the Interior is tasked with managing an incredible amount of acreage, thousands of species, countless water 

resources. Thanks for coming to visit with me about this before the 

hearing. 

As we have discussed, the Obama Administration has used the 

Department of the Interior as a department of preservation, locking 

up lands with the goal of preserving them as if they existed in a 

vacuum. I believe these bad policies have damaged landscapes, 

have failed to protect dangerously imperiled species and 

disenfranchised the people who I believe are most invested in the 

good stewardship of our resources, the people that live on the land. 

So I look forward to you and your new approach, and the new approach of the incoming Administration. 

The war on coal, it is real for communities across the West, including Wyoming and Montana. It has devastated small towns and 

ultimately threatens our country’s energy security. If confirmed, 

will you commit to ending this moratorium on Federal coal leasing? 

Mr. ZINKE. The war on coal I believe is real. I have Decker, Montana in my area, and behind me is a gentleman who works in the 

coal mines of the Crow Agency, which, by the way, the Crow Agency, if you were to take coal out of the picture, the unemployment 

rate would probably be in the 90 percent range. So they are very 

keen on making sure they have their jobs, and we give them the 

ability for self-determination. 

The moratorium, I think, was an example of many that is a onesize-fits-all. It was a view from Washington, not a view from the 

states, particularly if you are a state such as Wyoming and parts 

of Montana, West Virginia, where coal is important. 

So overall, the President-elect has made a commitment to end 

‘‘the war on coal.’’ I think we should be smart on how we approach 

our energy. All-of-the-above is a correct policy. Coal is certainly a 

great part of our energy mix. 

To your point, I am also a great believer that we should invest 

in the research and development, particularly on coal, because we 

know we have the asset. Let us work together to make it cleaner, 

better. We should be leading the world in clean energy technology, 

and I am pretty confident that coal can be a part of that. 

But it is about science. It is about investing in our future and 

not looking at our past. 

Senator BARRASSO. With the use of the Congressional Review 

Act, I am planning on introducing a disapproval resolution on the 

BLM’s venting and flaring rule. To me, that rule far exceeds the 

authority of the BLM. It will ultimately put Federal lands at even 

greater competitive disadvantage to state and private lands. Will 

you support our efforts to reverse this rule under the Congressional 

Review Act? 


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Mr. ZINKE. Yes, and I think what the driving force is, is we are 

venting a lot, and we are wasting energy. And that is troubling to 

me. The amount of venting in North Dakota alone almost exceeds 

what we get out of the fields. 

So a lot of the wasting can be approached by having an infrastructure. So let us build a system where we capture that energy 

that is otherwise being wasted. And that is an enormous opportunity. It is an enormous opportunity for our natural gas and geopolitically as well. 

You know, we have not talked a lot about overseas, but energy 

is so critically important. If we want to check Russia, then let us 

do it with liquid natural gas. If we want to put pressure on Iran, 

let us supplant every drop of Iranian crude. 

This is all part of a larger package, and it cannot be done without the great State of Wyoming and their assets, or Alaska. But we 

have to think globally on it. I have said this once before, but it is 

better to produce energy in America under reasonable regulation 

and get better over time than watch it be produced overseas with 

no regulation. That is indisputable. 

Senator BARRASSO. The final question, I want to talk about sage 

grouse management plans. The Administration has ignored input 

from key stakeholders, including Western Governors, during the 

development of their plans, plans which were used to justify what 

they called non-warranted status under the Endangered Species 

Act. But at the core, the plans fundamentally opposed the multiple 

use mandates of the BLM, which includes grazing, recreation, energy development. Will you commit to returning conservation management authority of the sage grouse back to the states and preventing top-down mandates like this in the future? 

Mr. ZINKE. My understanding is the sage grouse decision is going 

to come before the Department of the Interior sometime in March. 

I understand there are going to be options and alternatives, proposed alternatives. I will work with you when I see those documents. I will work with all of you when I see those documents to 

make sure we are doing the right thing. 

What concerns me about sage grouse is there is no target number. I am not sure how you can manage without a number. So if 

we just grab on management of property without a number, I look 

at that with a suspect eye. 

I think we have to look at, everyone loves sage grouse. Everyone 

understands that we have to protect the species. Generally, those 

who live on the ground are better positioned, and we should be an 

advocate and a partner in this, rather than heavy-handed and just 

dictate terms, particularly when we do not have a number. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Wyden, who has been very patient. 

Thank you. 

Senator WYDEN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Congressman, as a fellow Oregon Duck—— 

Mr. ZINKE. Go Ducks. It is a rough season, sir. 

Senator WYDEN. Watch basketball. 

I appreciated the visit in the office. As we talked about, when 

you go into a small Western town today and you head to the coffee 

shop, where it seems most of the decisions usually get made, you 


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will now see ranchers and timber mill owners and environmental 

folks, and they will all be sitting around. And you will ask them 

what they are doing, and they will mention one word, and this is 

true all over the West, and that word is ‘‘collaboration,’’ because 

they have decided everybody has just enough clout to block the 

other side and nothing happens unless they collaborate. 

We really set the model for this in this committee with secure 

rural schools, with our resource advisory committees, and this is 

really probably what I am more interested in. I remember being on 

this committee when Chairman Murkowski was getting us involved 

in these resource issues. Maybe we have some kind of club for exchairs of this committee or something, but the point was we started 

talking about collaboration then. 

On this sage-grouse issue, which we are all deeply committed to 

making sure that there is not a lifting under the Endangered Species Act, we are going to have to have a Federal/State/local collaboration. This is apropos of the question from my friend in Wyoming. 

I think you just mentioned one of the roles that the Federal Government better play, and that is setting a target. 

Now, I have always said when the Federal Government sets a 

target, and then we say to local folks, you all go do your thing because what works in Roseburg, Oregon or Coos Bay, Oregon may 

not necessarily work several thousand miles away. 

Tell me a little bit about how you are going to approach setting 

up the Federal/State collaboration on what is one of the biggest, 

most important collaboration we have seen in years. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, thank you for the question, and I do believe 

that Oregon Ducks are going to be better. But the collaborative efforts, you have to reward getting together in a collaborative because it takes a lot of resources. It takes time, it takes effort, and 

the frustration is that you get together—farmers, ranchers, environmental, all stakeholders—and after a two-year venture where 

they come up with a plan, and there is fighting, and there is discussion, and there is compromise, you come up with a plan, and 

that plan is ignored, or it is sued multiple times. So we have to 

incentivize coming together for plans. From the Federal Government, I have been an advocate of empowering the plan based on 

broad, central goals. 

In the case of the sage-grouse—— 

Senator WYDEN. Like targets. 

Mr. ZINKE. Like targets, yes sir, management numbers. What is 

the goal? 

Senator WYDEN. Okay. 

Mr. ZINKE. I do not know how you make a management plan unless you have a goal. So the goal needs to be scientifically, objectively based to protect the species, and—— 

Senator WYDEN. Let us move on to forestry because I like the answer. You laid out that there was a role for the Federal Government as it relates to targets, and I want it understood that I am 

very much sympathetic to your point and Senator Barrasso’s point 

that we also have to have a strong role for local folks in the states 

and the like. 

Apply it now to forestry where once again we are trying to find 

a way to get beyond years of gridlock. Now, I have written a proVerDate Sep 11 2014 23:32 May 02, 2017 Jkt 023615 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A615.XXX A615

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posal for our state. You and I talked about it. It is called the ONC 

Land. It doubles the harvest in a sustainable way on average each 

year for decades while protecting our treasures. There are other 

ways to go about doing it as well. The Oregon delegation is trying 

to find some common ground. 

How do you do it, in your view, without going to sufficiency language, which basically has generated ever since the spotted owl, all 

the polarization and all the fighting? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, thank you for the question. It is an excellent 

question. On the House side, we had the Resilient Federal Force 

Act. What we had hoped would happen was the Senate would pick 

it up, and then we would work it out between the—on the committees, who would work together and fine tune it because there were 

parts that neither party liked, but overall it was a pretty good vehicle. 

In that bill, it did not exclude any stakeholder in our forests. I 

am pretty good friends with Chief Tidwell, who is a Region 1 guy. 

We are 71 million acres behind in removing dead and dying timber. 

We need to get to it because the goal should be healthy forests so 

you do not have a catastrophic fire. 

Senator WYDEN. Let us do this. Would you furnish that answer 

to me in writing? 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, sir. 

Senator WYDEN. I want to know how we bring about the collaboration without sufficiency language. 

I also want to thank you for your support in our bipartisan effort 

to end fire borrowing, which is this insane budget practice which 

actually discriminates against preventive forestry. I appreciate 

your help. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Wyden. Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Madam Chair. And, Senator Wyden, 

I echo your comments on collaboration. The other word I hear 

around tables at coffee shops in Montana besides ‘‘collaboration’’ is 

‘‘litigation.’’ We collaborate, and then we have agreements, and 

then some extreme groups stop it in court. We have got to address 

this litigation issue, too, if we are going to solve the problem. 

Representative Zinke, welcome to the committee. It has been a 

long path from Boise State in 1979 as two juniors in high school 

to being here with you. What an honor. Thank you. It is wonderful 

to see your family here. I could not be a prouder Montanan. In fact, 

when confirmed, you will be the first Montanan to ever serve in a 

Cabinet position in United States’ history, going back to our statehood in 1889. So history will be made when you are confirmed. 

With you the helm of the Department of the Interior, you are 

going to be a strong advocate for our public lands and a strong advocate for American energy. You have made that clear here today. 

And you have been tenacious in working on behalf of Indian Country in the House, representing our 12 Federally-recognized Indian 

tribes and the Little Shell Tribe. I know you will be committed to 

bringing prosperity to their communities. 

As I say about Montana, we are a unique blend. We are a blend 

of Merle Haggard and a blend of John Denver—mastering that 

melody is always a challenge, but it does result in a common sense 

approach on management of our Federal lands and minerals that 


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can make our country stronger. I think you have mastered that 

melody, which is why I think you have secured the support from 

such a diverse number of sportsmen, of industry, of tribal groups. 

There is an impressive list here, Representative Zinke, that is 

single-spaced, two columns wide, of groups that range from the 

American Fly Fishing Trade Association, who have written letters 

in your support, on your behalf, Boone and Crockett Club, the 

NRA, the Mueller Foundation, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association. These are just a few of the many on this list, not to mention tribes from across the country—the Confederated Salish and 

Kootenai, Fort Belknap, the Shakopee, the Choctaw, and the list 

goes on. That is a tough balance to walk. It is a walk of wisdom, 

and you have walked it well, sir. 

I would like to submit some of these letters to support your nomination on their behalf today to the committee, if I could, Madam 

Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. They are a part of the record. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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Senator DAINES. Thank you. Representative Zinke, why do you 

want this job? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, I have been asked that. Thanks for the question, and thank you for the remarks. I love my country, I love public lands, and I love Teddy Roosevelt’s idea that we should think 

bold and big and prepare for the future. And this job I take very 

seriously, if confirmed, because of all that. 

Our country loves our parks and our lands. Our nation should be 

better equipped, our Indian tribes with the ability for self-determination. And when the Department of the Interior has an influence over a fifth of our territory, that means influencing beaches 

in Maine, with clams to our fisheries outside of Hawaii. Even in 

this body we are all different, but we all share a common purpose, 

to make our country great again. 

I think as the Secretary of the Interior, I think I will have inherited 70,000 hard-charging, dedicated professionals that want to do 

the same thing, and my task is to organize for a better future for 

Interior and our country. I will work with anybody, as the list 

would indicate. I have never been red or blue. To me it has always 

been red, white and blue. Politically, I have never asked an individual serving next to me whether they are Republican or Democrat. What has mattered to me is they are American and love their 

country, and they are committed to mission success. We have a 

very important mission in the Department of the Interior ahead of 

us. 

Senator DAINES. Representative Zinke, a lot of concerns that 

Montanans have had with previous Department of the Interior 

leaders is that a lot of land use decisions are done with disregard— 

with disregard for the impacts to those who live close to the lands. 

You have made that clear today as an issue of trust and so forth. 

In fact, as we have traveled around the state together, one of your 

favorite lines is a lot of the bureaucrats back here in D.C. could not 

find Montana on a map. Whether it is national monument designations, sage-grouse plans, a moratorium on coal leasing, too often 

Montanans face decisions on their public lands that are made by 

out-of-touch Washington D.C. bureaucrats. 

My question has two parts. What are your views in facilitating 

more local control and management of our Federal lands out West, 

and by ‘‘West,’’ we have a true Westerner here, somebody from 

Montana. And how can we make the Department of the Interior 

look more like Montana and get it closer to the people? 

Mr. ZINKE. Great question. I would say we need to shore up our 

front line. If our front line managers do not have the resources, if 

they do not have the flexibility nor the authority to make the decision they know is right, there is a problem. In the military, it is 

like being on the front line and asking for a bullet. You have got 

to go all the way to the back to headquarters to get a bullet, and 

when you finally get it, then you have got to ask permission to 

shoot it. If you get permission to shoot it, then you have got to ask 

permission to shoot at what. And that is what has happened a lot 

of times of our front line managers. 

We are losing a lot of BLM folks because they have just had it. 

And so, we need to shore up the front line to empower the front 

line to do good things with broad guidance, and understand that 


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their guidance—and they should be incentivized on their evaluations of working with local communities. That is how you do it. You 

reward on an evaluation how did you collaborate? Did you talk to 

the local community? Do you have the local community’s support? 

That is a part of it. 

So, I think collaborative efforts work. I think generally they deliver the better outcome. But, again, my job or, I think, my most 

important task is restore trust. When a BLM truck or a Fish and 

Wildlife Service truck shows up, one is you want to see management in your eyes, and you want to know it is in good hands. I 

think in many cases we have been too heavy handed as a—as a nation, and there is a separation between those living on the land 

and those in management. Unfortunately, a lot of times those management decisions are made here. You are right. If you do not 

know the difference between Butte and Bozeman, maybe you are 

not in the right position to make those decisions. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. We will next go to Senator Cortez Masto. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. Congressman, it is nice to 

meet you for the first time. It is unfortunate we did not have a 

chance to meet prior to today. So, with your indulgence, I will jump 

right in because I am one of those western states, particularly in 

Nevada were 85 percent of the land is owned by the Federal Government, and we deal with eight Federal agencies on a regular 

basis. So your role as potential Secretary of the Interior is very important to us in Nevada. 

I have heard what you had to say about the Antiquities Act, and 

let me get one more commitment from you. Just recently we had 

two national monuments declared—the Basin and Range and Gold 

Butte. We would love for you to come out to Nevada and take a 

look at those monuments. There was some vocal opposition, but I 

will tell you that a majority of Nevadans support these designations. If you would make a commitment to come out, we would love 

to host you. 

Mr. ZINKE. I will make a commitment to that, and I will make 

a commitment also to every member. If you have a monument in 

your state, before I make a recommendation to the President, I am 

going to talk to you. I am going to talk to the delegation. I am 

going to make sure we are all working together on this, and that 

is what a Secretary should do up front. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman. I 

appreciate that, and I appreciate your talk and discussion on collaboration and your goal of restoring trust by working with the 

locals and the local communities in the state. We look forward to 

that. 

One of the areas is in Nevada—most people do not realize there 

are 32 tribal reservations in Nevada. I would just love a commitment if you would guarantee that tribal members would have a 

seat at the table when it comes to decisions, activities and land 

management near their communities when it involves the Department of the Interior. 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, ma’am, and I have—I have had the same discussion with the great State of Minnesota. I think we all would like 


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to see BIA be better. How we do that, because they have not been 

better. We need improvement on that, and I think we need to do 

two—three things. Again, sovereignty should mean something. So, 

when we say you are a sovereign nation, let us have the discussion 

of how to—how to empower that. Secondly, respect. In many cases, 

our Indian nations have not had the respect that I think they deserve. And lastly, how do we empower great nations for self-determination? What tools do they need? The education oftentimes is 

lacking, but it is state by state. Some of the education opportunities in Alaska and tribes, you know, far exceed anything in the 

lower 48, but that is not always the case. So, I think—— 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman. I 

appreciate your comments. Wild horses have not been brought up 

yet. And as you may or may not know, in Nevada this is a big 

issue. In fact, the wild horse population in Nevada is over 31,000. 

I am curious. How would the BLM under your direction humanely 

handle the wild horse and burro population crisis? 

Mr. ZINKE. Great question. I have learned more in the past couple weeks about burros and horses from multiple states, and this 

is where we are going to have to have discussion and work together. Clearly the present policy is a disaster. It is enormously expensive. 

I am a great horseman, and I am very sensitive to making sure 

that horses do not starve, that we—that we treat animals in a humane way. But kicking them out and then spending millions of dollars every year on a program that is not working? Let us work together to figure out how to fix it. We are a great nation. We can 

fix the burro problem. We can fix the horse problem. And it is not 

just in Nevada as you know. It is western, and I understand there 

is a problem in Florida, too. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. And then water rights obviously are an important issue for the western states. I do not think 

has been brought up but seven in 10 people in Nevada get a majority of their water supply from Lake Mead, and the last 15 years 

of the drought has exposed a bathwater, kind of like, ring around 

Lake Mead to show the level has decreased. It is obviously a concern of ours and many of the states up and down the Colorado 

River. 

Arizona, California and Nevada are in principal agreement on a 

drought contingency plan, and our concern is that with this transition there is going to be a real impact on the water supply for Nevada if there is a lag time during this transition. I would like to 

know how you will exercise your authority and leadership to help 

the states finalize and implement their drought contingency plans. 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you for the question. As I mentioned earlier, 

water is critical for a number of reasons. We have to look at storage, we have to look at efficiency, we have to look at our infrastructure, all of which are behind, and then negotiate in good faith. 

When everyone walks in a room with an agenda and they are unwilling to budge from that, that is not good faith. 

So leadership is recognizing the importance of having a win-win, 

and also recognizing that we have to do better on our infrastructure. We waste an enormous amount of water in this country, especially in the West, not having a holding capacity. Some of our dams 


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are lacking. There is a lot of opportunity, but we need to manage 

our resources, I think, better, and DOI can have a huge role in 

that. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Great. So you are committed to working 

with the state on that contingency plan? 

Mr. ZINKE. Absolutely. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Risch. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you very much. Congressman Zinke, 

thank you for your willingness to take this on to what, as you know 

and you can see from today, is going to be a very contentious job 

from time to time. But somebody has got to do it, and I am glad 

you are there. I am particularly thankful to the President-elect for 

picking a Westerner to do this who understands Western issues. 

My years here have taught me what a difference there is between East and West. I have come to the conclusion that the Mississippi River gets wider every year. I watched in Tennessee as a 

forest fire burned this year, and your heart goes out to those people. Everyone in Tennessee is just aghast at this. We live with this 

every year. A number of the senators up here have fires that are 

substantially bigger than what happened in Tennessee. 

I do not mean to denigrate what happened there. It was a terrible disaster. But we live with this all the time, and yet we have 

fought in a bipartisan fashion to try to get fire funding straightened out, and we have not been able to do it. Hopefully with the 

new Administration and we have some change, we are going to be 

able to do it. 

You know, when you look at the percentages of our states that 

are owned by the Federal Government—two-thirds in Idaho, substantially more in Nevada. I think, Senator Masto, you are going 

to find that it is frustrating because the people who live east of the 

Mississippi are sometimes very cavalier about our problems. And 

probably one of the poster children for that is the monument situation. The President with a stroke of a pen, be he a Republican or 

a Democrat, sets aside a million or more acres. If this happened to 

a state back East, people would be up in arms about it. And yet 

it happens—it winds up on the front page of the paper, and it is 

gone. Nobody ever thinks about it again. And the collaborative 

method that has been discussed here is really critical in these public land situations. 

I did it when I was Governor. Senator Wyden has referred to 

how they have been doing it in Oregon, and that is the way these 

things get done. They are going to get done in the future, and the 

only way they are going to get done. A lot of us have introduced 

a bill that is going to do something about that as far as the monuments are concerned. 

The states really have a role in this, and that brings me to my 

next point that I want to make before I run out of time, and that 

is to talk about management in the Department of the Interior. 

They do not call it the Department of Everything Else for nothing. 

I mean, it has got lots and lots of different responsibilities and 

what have you. 

One of the most frustrating things that happened to us with the 

Department of the Interior was with the sage-grouse. Secretary 


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Salazar, to his great credit, went out and said, hey, we have got 

a big issue here with sage-grouse. Governors, why do you not sit 

down and see if you cannot do something about this, and they did. 

In Idaho, I do not know about the other states, but I can tell you 

in Idaho, that thing was done incredibly well, bringing all sides to 

the table, using a collaborative method, including people from the 

United States Fish and Wildlife Service. Fish and Wildlife Service. 

They had a seat at the table. They constructed a plan. It was a give 

and take process. When they were all done, the plan was approved 

by everybody unanimously, including the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 

Service. So, now the plan comes back to Washington, D.C., and the 

BLM says wait a second, not so fast. 

When I first met Sally Jewell, the first thing I said to her after 

niceties was have you ever heard of sage-grouse, and she said, no, 

I have not. Obviously, I was one of the first ones she talked to. I 

told her the problem that we had between the BLM and U.S. Fish 

and Wildlife Service. I said, when you were head of REI, if the 

marketing people were fighting with the accounting department, 

you would step in and do something about this. I want some help 

on this. Fish and Wildlife Service says it is all right. BLM says, 

well, we have experts over here that says that this plan is—well, 

what are we doing there? One agency, and they are employing scientists on both sides that are going to fight with each other. Why 

bother having a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service if the BLM can 

come in and overrule? Well, at the beginning we made some 

progress in that regard, but lately that has fallen off the charts. 

I guess what I want to talk to you about is management. My 

good friend here on my right says that there are going to be wholesale changes at the EPA. Well, I hope you can do the same thing 

at the Department of the Interior. 

It is frustrating, and it makes us angry when you get two Federal agencies that are in disagreement with each other, and the 

head of the Department will not step in and say, hey, I am going 

to resolve this. I am the head of this. BLM, stand down. These people are in charge of wildlife. And if you do not want to do that, fine, 

but let us get rid of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. We are paying a lot of money for it. Let the BLM do it if they are going to 

be the ones that can overrule them. 

I am encouraged by what I hear today. One thing we did not talk 

about when we met was NIFC. I do not know. Have you ever visited the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) in Boise? 

Mr. ZINKE. No, sir. 

Senator RISCH. Okay. Well, I will look forward—— 

Mr. ZINKE. I have been on the front lines on multiple fires—— 

Senator RISCH. So have I. 

Mr. ZINKE [continuing]. In the Rocky Mountains. 

Senator RISCH. You are going to be impressed when you visit 

NIFC. I know you that you are going to do that. We will be interested in showing it off. It falls in line with one of the things you 

and I talked about, and that is they have a map at NIFC with a 

little dinky red dot for every fire start in America each year, and 

it is thousands of them. Right in the center of it is NIFC, it is located there for a reason and a good reason. 


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Anyway, thank you. My time is up. Thank you very much, 

Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Risch. Senator King. 

Senator KING. Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome to the committee. I have enjoyed your testimony today. I first want to thank 

you for your straightforward recognition that climate change is 

happening and that human activity is contributing to it, and also 

for the image of the glacier retreating during lunch. So, I am going 

to add that to my arsenal of climate change anecdotes. 

The theme of the hearing today in many ways has been one size 

does not fit all, and collaboration, consultation and communication. 

You alluded to an issue we have in Maine with a national park. 

There is a national park rule about you cannot exploit natural resources on national parks. On the other hand, in the inner tidal 

zone at Acadia National Park where people have been digging 

clams since time immemorial, suddenly the park decided you cannot do that anymore. That to me is an example of how there should 

be a better communication and relationship between the park, 

which is an enormously important asset to the State of Maine, and 

its neighboring communities. Do you agree? 

Mr. ZINKE. I agree, and I am glad you appreciate the theme has 

been collaboration, restoring trust, infrastructure, making sure our 

front lines have the right tools to make the decisions and working 

with the local communities. 

Senator KING. I hope you will take that message throughout the 

Department about listen first and act later. I think we can have, 

as you say, restoration of trust and a lot more confidence in the decisions wherever they are made. By the way, if you are going move 

BLM out West, you are welcome to move the Park Service headquarters to Maine if you choose. Too far away somebody said? 

Come on. 

Backlog. The backlog in the parks is a straightforward problem 

of funding; we should be funding to pay the maintenance of the 

parks. We have basically been putting it off for 10 or 15 or 20 

years. I hope you will approach the upcoming budget as saying this 

is part of our obligation to pay the park rangers, and to pay all the 

expenses of the parks and to chip away at this backlog. Will you 

consider that? 

Mr. ZINKE. Absolutely, and this is why this committee is so incredibly important, and the Chairman from Alaska is so incredibly 

important, because I may own the helicopter, but I have to ask you 

for the gas. In order to fund the parks at the level required, it goes 

to this body, and I have to convince you that the money that is 

going to be spent and it will be prioritized. I have to convince the 

President-elect that the parks are his priority as well because they 

should be America’s priority. 

Senator KING. Well, a point that was made earlier about the 

backlog, I think the Chairman talked about the return on investment is gigantic in terms of what we put into the parks versus the 

economic activity that they generate in their areas. So, it is a good 

investment for the public and, I believe, for the Government itself. 

A similar concern. We are now talking about in recent days 

about a major defense buildup. We are talking about a major infrastructure investment. We are talking about major tax cuts. All of 


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those together do not really add up in terms of the arithmetic in 

the budget, and the deficit and the debt. Therefore, there is going 

to be a lot of pressure on various areas of the Federal Government, 

particularly the non-defense areas. Will you resist stoutly with the 

heart of the Navy SEAL efforts to raid the Land and Water Conservation Fund to fund other government priorities? 

Mr. ZINKE. I am on record of supporting full funding of the Land 

Water Conservation Fund for a reason. I think it is an incredibly 

important program. It has done great work. This is probably one 

of the reasons why the President-elect put a former Navy SEAL in 

place. 

I do not yield to pressure. Higher principle, yes. But my job is 

to advocate for the Department of the Interior, to make sure we 

have the right funds, and be a voice in the room on great public 

policy. There are going to be a lot of times where I am going to 

need the help of this body because by myself I do not have the authority. I have to follow the law, and I will follow the law. 

I think the law needs to be adjusted in some areas, as this body 

has often said. In order to adjust it, one, we have to trust whoever 

is going to execute is going to do it well. And two, is I need bipartisan support to make sure the law is adjusted appropriately so we 

can move the ball up the field, if that is the right terminology, to 

make our park system make DOI better. 

Senator KING. Well, I for one, and I cannot speak for the committee, but we certainly want to work with you. I learned as a lawyer in Maine when you get the answer you want, you sit down and 

shut up. So, I yield back my time, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator King. Senator Flake, right 

on time. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you. I have 

enjoyed hearing the testimony. Sorry I had to step out for a 

minute, and I hope I am not re-plowing old ground here. 

As you know, Arizona is home to a lot of public lands between 

the land that the Department of the Interior administers directly 

and then that it holds in trust or administers for the tribes. That 

is about half of the state right there. When you take into account 

Federal, State, and tribal land, that is about 85 percent of Arizona. 

So, we have only got about 15 percent in private hands. 

That means that decisions made by the Federal Government, including the Department of the Interior, have a real outsized impact 

on the state. We talked about a lot of the issues, and thank you 

for coming to my office. I know you committed to me, and it sounds 

like everybody else, to visit their state in the early stages, so you 

will have a busy travel schedule. 

We mentioned, and I know was brought up a little bit, in terms 

of the drought and the Colorado River, and the Basin states are 

very close to an agreement on a drought contingency plan to leave 

additional water behind the dam at Lake Mead so that we do not 

hit the stage where there are arbitrary cuts that would hurt us 

badly. 

It is crucial for Arizona obviously that we work with the Department of the Interior to ensure that Arizona water users to the extent they leave water behind the dam, that that water does not disappear down some canal in some other state. That is the only basis 


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on which some contingency plan would work. Will you commit to 

work with us in that regard? We got assurance last year from the 

Department of the Interior. That assurance will have to go forward 

until there is a drought contingency plan. 

Mr. ZINKE. I will commit to working with you. As earlier discussed, I do recognize that water, particularly in the West, is a big 

issue, in every state in the West. We have got to get together and 

figure this out. I think some of it is infrastructure, the best plan 

on water requirements are going to be, and that is to make sure 

we have the infrastructure to reach those requirements. 

And it is going to be probably trifold. Some of it going to be efficiency. Some of that is going to be building better capture facilities, 

and then looking at the infrastructure we have. We are wasting a 

lot of water. There is no question of that. So let us make sure that 

every drop is precious, and let us make sure that our water is 

clean. I think we can do that. 

Senator FLAKE. Still on the subject of water, Indian water settlements. Last year I introduced the Hualapai Tribe Water Rights 

Settlement Act. Last week I introduced the bill to make necessary 

clarifications to the White Mountain Apache Tribe settlement. I 

know that you were a sponsor of the Blackfeet Water Rights Settlement Act, so you understand the importance of these settlements 

for both tribal and non-tribal users. Can we count on you to work 

with me and with the tribes and other parties in Arizona to make 

sure the Hualapai settlement moves forward and also that we get 

the necessary clarifications to the White Mountain Apache Tribe 

settlement? 

Mr. ZINKE. I do, and I would like to also thank Senator Daines 

for his work on the Blackfeet Water Compact. I view water compacts as a treaty obligation, and I think we need to uphold our part 

of that treaty obligation. 

The water compacts, as you know, are difficult. They involve the 

State, the tribes, and the Federal Government, and then within the 

Federal Government, it is not easy. But I do recognize the importance of working with you on the compacts, and also the importance of getting them resolved. They are a liability that is out 

there. We need to recognize they are our liability. They are not an 

earmark. It is a treaty obligation, and let us work together to get 

them done. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you. As you know, cattle ranching has a 

long history in Arizona and continues to hold a prominent place in 

our present-day state as well as our history. I come from ranching 

family. In fact, this last weekend I was back on the F–Bar where 

I was raised near Snowflake. 

Ranching is never an easy business, but it is made more difficult 

with issues like was already raised with the burro in northwestern 

Arizona and the Mexican gray wolf in southeastern Arizona. What 

we continue to hear is a lack of cooperation and coordination between the Federal agencies and the local land users. I know that 

you have already committed to work on this. You will be hearing 

a lot when you come to Arizona about the issues that we have with 

wild burros as well as the Mexican gray wolf issues. 

Mr. ZINKE. I am concerned, quite frankly, about the optic of, 

whether it is BLM or the Forest Service. I grew up when Smokey 


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the Bear was revered. I mean, who could not like Smokey the 

Bear? And now in some part of our great nation, it is feared. When 

they see Smokey the Bear, they think of law enforcement rather 

than managing our forests. 

So I am very concerned about that because it has implications of 

the next generation. So, we have to come together and make sure 

that management, our team, out there is viewed as helpful, viewed 

as land managers and not to be feared. You know, you want to stop 

by and say hello. You do not want to avoid. In some places, the further you get out, in parts of Alaska and parts of Montana, they are 

viewed as law enforcement and obstructionists. 

I think we need to be really careful as leaders of this great nation to recognize it and go forward with solutions and to make sure 

the next generation looks to law enforcement, be it BLM or Fish 

and Game, as good neighbors and helpful rather than to be feared. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. Let me get this straight. Smokey 

the Bear is not real, right? [Laughter.] 

Mr. ZINKE. He is real to me, sir. [Laughter.] 

Senator FRANKEN. Okay. That might be disqualifying. [Laughter.] 

Thank you for your service as a Navy SEAL, to your daughter’s 

service as a Navy SEAL, to your son-in-law, who, frankly, terrifies 

me. I do not know if anyone has looked at him. He is out with one 

of your granddaughters, who, by the way, the granddaughters, you 

are the unsung heroes of this hearing. You have been wonderful. 

You have a beautiful family. 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you, sir. 

Senator FRANKEN. I want to get into what I consider a false 

choice, and the false choice that I hear you have iterated a couple 

of times is between addressing climate change and the economy. I 

think that is a false choice. 

I think it is a false choice because, one, if we do not address it, 

it is going to cost us a tremendous amount of resources. 

Superstorm Sandy cost approximately $60 billion because sea level 

has risen. Glacier National Park is going to be, I do not know, Lake 

National Park or Mountain National Park, but it is not going to be 

Glacier in 30 years. In Minnesota, we have built lots and lots of 

clean energy jobs, and we are addressing climate change. We put 

in a renewable energy standard, and it has been very successful for 

our businesses. 

You signed a letter in 2010, and I just want to clarify your 

stance. In this letter you urged Federal lawmakers—this is a bunch 

of state legislators who do this—hundreds and hundreds of state 

legislators—to ‘‘pass comprehensive clean energy jobs and climate 

change legislation.’’ Now, this letter also stated that ‘‘climate 

change is a threat multiplier for instability in the most volatile regions of the world’’ and that ‘‘the climate threat presents significant 

national security challenges for the United States, challenges that 

should be addressed today because they will almost certainly get 

worse if we delay.’’ 


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I completely agree with that letter. And I ask unanimous consent, Madam Chair, to include this in the record. 

The CHAIRMAN. [Off audio.] 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. You were a Navy SEAL for 23 

years, so you probably know better than most people here about 

protecting our country. I completely agree with your stance in this 

letter that climate change threatens our national security. The Defense Department certainly knows that. 

It needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. So, I want to ask 

you, do you still feel that climate change is a significant national 

security threat and one that requires immediate action, or has your 

position changed since you have been in Congress? 

Mr. ZINKE. That is a great question. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, you are welcome. I want to be honest with you. 

The three tenets of climate change, one is we both agree that the 

climate is changing. We both agree that man has had an influence. 

Senator FRANKEN. I think a major influence. If you just look at 

CO2 levels and how they parallel with temperature rise, last year 

was the hottest year on record. The year before was the hottest 

year on record then. This year is going to be hotter. This is happening, and sea level is rising. 

Mr. ZINKE. I am not—I am not an expert in this field. What I 

do know—— 

Senator FRANKEN. But that to me is a cop out—— 

Mr. ZINKE. No, I want to be honest with you. 

Senator FRANKEN. I am not a doctor, but I have to make 

healthcare decisions. 

Mr. ZINKE. I, too, sit on the Natural Resources Committee and 

I have went through hundreds of hours of testimony on all topics, 

is that there is no model today that can predict tomorrow. So 

where we agree is we need objective science to, one, figure a model 

out, and, two, determine what are we going to do about it. What 

do we do? 

When you say that we want to recognize CO2 levels, absolutely. 

Recognize also that the ocean is a contributor to it when a small 

rise in temperature in the ocean makes a big difference in CO2. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well, it absorbs the CO2. It makes a big—— 

Mr. ZINKE. It makes a big difference. 

Senator FRANKEN [continuing]. In sea level. And that means 

storm surges create tremendous damage and are going to create climate refugees, and are going to require, and I know I am out of 

time. They are going to be requiring the use of our military if we 

do not do something about it. I think this is a false choice. We can 

build an economy, sell to the Chinese, sell clean energy technology. 

That is what we should be doing. 

I am sorry I have gone over my time. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. We do have a vote coming up shortly, 

and I would like to get to the two remaining members who have 

not yet had a chance to ask questions. It is my intention that we 

have a second round after this, but we will be able to take a quick 

break as well. 

Let us go to Senator Portman. 

Senator PORTMAN. Thank you, Madam Chair. Commander Zinke, 

thank you for your willingness to step forward to serve in a very 

different capacity. 


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We have had a lot of discussions today about issues relating to 

the Department of the Interior and your role. One that I want to 

focus on is the national parks. I think it is a great opportunity for 

you and for our country to do more to deal with the $12.5 billion 

maintenance backlog we talked about to preserve and protect these 

great treasures. 

We just went through a process in Congress of considering this. 

In fact, the legislation which was tied in with the Centennial last 

year—the National Parks Centennial Act—passed in the wee hours 

of the morning just about a month ago. It passed with the indispensable help of the Chair and Ranking Member here today. It is 

something I have worked on for nine years going back to my time 

as Office of Management and Budget Director where we put a Centennial Challenge together. 

The challenge is essentially two parts. One, it helps with regards 

to the Park Service by allowing private sector funds to be raised 

to match Federal funding. Second, it helps the Foundation to be 

able to raise funds. That money, by the way, will be within your 

discretion, and I hope some of it will be used for just deferred 

maintenance, and I hope some of it will be used for some other special projects to enhance our parks. 

So, my question to you today is, are you aware of this program 

and its potential? Let me give you an example. Thanks to Lisa 

Murkowski and others on the Appropriations Committee, even before it was authorized a month ago, some of this was happening. 

And the match expected to be one-to-one was almost two-to-one. In 

other words, $1.00 of Federal funding resulted in $2.00 of private 

sector funding coming into the parks. I think it could be much 

greater than that, and the Foundation is an example. 

So, how do you feel about the program? Are you supportive of it? 

And, specifically, would you support funding this in our appropriations cycle? 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you for the question, and I am aware of it. I 

think it is a great opportunity. One is the—as the Secretary of the 

Interior, as it turns out, I have a number of boards with a diversity 

of talent, both in business and in conservation. Foundations like 

this offer a unique opportunity for innovation and looking at different ways of not only funding our parks, but also looking at protecting our parks. Trail building, I think, is an opportunity we need 

to look at, you know, how to—how to reestablish a national trail 

building program. A lot of that I would assume is going to come 

from the private sector. So I think the Foundation and other boards 

are a unique opportunity to leverage, and I am a strong proponent 

of it. 

Senator PORTMAN. I am glad to hear that, and we will need your 

help as we get in the appropriations cycle. There are so many other 

priorities, and this one is crucial given the state of the parks. 

I will say in Ohio we do not have a lot of Federal public lands, 

as you and I discussed. We do have a beautiful park, Cuyahoga National Park, which is top 10 in visitation. So when you are on your 

tour somewhere between Hawaii and Montana, we expect you to 

drop into Ohio and to see one of the great suburban parks in America where there is access to a huge population in the area. A lot 

of young people and a lot of schools are involved and engaged, 


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which is exactly what we need more of, as you said, getting the 

millennials involved. 

With regard to rules and orders that the Department has finalized in the last 60 days prior to your confirmation, should you be 

confirmed, I am concerned—I have heard from constituents worried 

about job losses and other economic impacts. In general, what is 

your plan with regard to sort of 11th hour rules that have come 

in? And, specifically, with regard to the Stream Buffer Rule, what 

are your thoughts? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, I find the 11th hour rule to be problematic because what it shows to me that previous to that, there was no either collaboration or the collaborative effort was not—was not effective. Generally the last hour rules result in distrust and policy 

that I think is not conducive of a collaborative and trust relationship. 

If confirmed, we will look at whatever is in my power, authority, 

and evaluate. You know, everything is on the table, as it should be, 

specifically different rules. But in general, when you have a lastminute rule, that means that it was a last-minute decision, and 

there was not working with this body to make sure we have a solution that should stand. 

Senator PORTMAN. Thank you. I appreciate that, and particularly 

on the Stream Buffer Rule in Eastern Ohio and coal country it is 

problematic. 

Finally, Great Lakes. I will not ask you answer it because my 

time is expiring, but Senator Stabenow asked you a little about the 

invasive species part of this. Fish and Wildlife is very helpful there. 

They do the monitoring for us. They are the early warning signal 

really for the big head carp coming up and other invasive species. 

So we look forward to working with you on that, and I appreciate 

your commitment to her and to us, those of us who want to help 

preserve that great treasure of our Great Lakes. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Portman. For the information of members, the vote has started. We will have Senator Hirono 

ask her questions, then we will take a break and return at 5:00. 

Senator Hirono. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. Congressman, you 

are going to be awfully busy because when you came to see me you 

committed to coming to Hawaii. I think you also mentioned visiting 

the territories which include Guam, Puerto Rico, a number of other 

places, as well as I think the Compact Nations—Palau, Marshall 

Islands, and Micronesia. They would love to see you should you be 

confirmed. I know that. 

In the discussion about energy, you have said a number of times 

that you support all-of-the-above, which sounds really great, except 

that in all-of-the-above, what happened is that the fossil fuel side 

of energy has gotten a lot of support over decades. So, I hope that 

when you say ‘‘all-of-the-above’’ that you will also be committed to 

providing more resources and support, particularly R&D, for alternative and renewables, aside from or in addition to fossil fuels. We 

need to have a more level playing field for policies that truly reflect 

support for all-of-the-above. 


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Mr. ZINKE. I have always been a strong proponent, you know, on 

the record for research and development of different technologies, 

different innovations, different opportunities in this complete spectrum of the energy, to include looking at traditional sources to 

make sure we are better at doing that, you know, certainly horizontal drilling, fracking, coal. But all-of-the-above I think is the 

right approach. When it comes out of the test tube and into fielding, energy needs to be affordable, reliable and abundant. 

Senator HIRONO. I think, though, when you look at the 100 years 

in the future and you recognize that climate change is upon us, and 

that it is a multiplier—it is a threat multiplier. Admiral Locklear 

has testified to that, so I know serving in the military you are well 

aware a hundred years or 30 years from now, we need to do more 

than continue to provide the kind of sustained support that we 

have provided to the fossil fuel side. 

Let me get to the question of infrastructure because I am all for 

what you are saying about the need to pay attention to the infrastructure needs of the DOI. But then it is always an issue of how 

we are going to pay for it, and I am glad you are not going to raid 

the LWCF in order to pay for some $11 billion in infrastructure 

needs. But since Departments do not operate in a vacuum, would 

you support privatizing Social Security or privatizing, voucherizing 

Medicare in order to pay for DOI’s infrastructure needs? 

Mr. ZINKE. So, how are we going to do it? My question—and not 

to evade the answer, but, looking at our budget, we spend 70 percent of our budget, you know, in entitlements, 30 percent in discretionary. We are not going to be able to cut our way out of the problems we have, nor are we going to be able to tax our way out. 

The only hope of America is to grow our way out, and we can. 

Energy is part of it. Innovation is part of it. But we are going to 

need an economy that grows, and we can compete. Not only we can 

compete, we can dominate. God has given us so much. 

Senator HIRONO. So—— 

Mr. ZINKE. And I think we can. The way out of this problem—— 

Senator HIRONO. I hate to interrupt, but I am almost running 

out of time, and I waited a long time. 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, you have. 

Senator HIRONO. So, thank you. 

Mr. ZINKE. You have been very, very patient. 

Senator HIRONO. It sounds to me as though you would look to 

grow the economy rather than cutting back on these kinds of programs that so many people, especially our seniors, rely upon. 

Talented as you are, you are not going to be able to do the job 

all by yourself, so you will have an opportunity to weigh in on the 

people who will become your deputies, assistants, etcetera. What 

kind of qualities would you look for in those people? 

Mr. ZINKE. Loyalty, teamwork, trust, competence, commitment. I 

think, you know, each of the divisions have different challenges. 

The challenges in BIA are very different than challenges in Fish 

and Wildlife and BLM. So you have to put the right person in the 

right spot. 

From a SEAL perspective, we need fearless rough riders that will 

make the decision regardless of whether you are going to get sued 

or not. Our policy has been whether we are going to get sued, 


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whether it is the right or wrong policy. And this is where I am 

going to need your help. 

In order to develop the right policy, we should not be in fear of 

being sued time after time after time again. We should develop the 

right policy and have people in place that are willing to make the 

right decision. 

Senator HIRONO. So, I agree with you. With the Chair’s indulgence, I would like to just ask one more question—— 

The CHAIRMAN. Very quickly. 

Senator HIRONO [continuing]. Make a point regarding sexual harassment in the Department. Clearly this has been going on for way 

too long, over a decade, when it first came to light in your Park 

Service. And so, as in the military, sexual assault in the military 

is a huge scourge on the military. I would want your commitment 

that you will do whatever you need to do to prevent it, which includes changing the culture by the way. It is a culture within the 

Park Service that lends itself to sexual harassment, too, that there 

will be prosecution, meaning that there will be accountability for 

the perpetrators of this kind of behavior. 

And the third is that you will do specific things to prevent retaliation because these are the very kinds of occurrences and factors 

that have been a scourge in the military. So I would like your commitment toward making those kinds of changes, and I certainly 

will be following up with you. 

Mr. ZINKE. And you have my commitment. It will be zero tolerance, and I will be fearless in this. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. With that, we will stand at ease hopefully until 

just about 5:00 when we will come back for a second round. Thank 

you. 

[Recess.] 

The CHAIRMAN. Okay. We are back for round two. Everyone has 

had a little bit of a stretch. Congressman, we appreciate the endurance here. You are probably thinking it is nothing like what you 

are used to, but we appreciate the fact that you have been generous with your time and our questions here. So we will allow for 

members to ask another round of questions. 

We actually have another confirmation hearing that has just 

started up at 5:00 that I am going to be heading off to when this 

one has concluded, so we are going full time here today. 

Mr. ZINKE. It may be more popular than mine. 

The CHAIRMAN. No, this has been very important. 

Congressman, I want to ask you about an issue that Alaskans 

care a great deal about, and given the makeup of our lands and the 

fact that so much of our lands are held in the Federal estate. 

Under the Alaskan National Interest Lands Conservation Act 

(ANILCA), it specifically provides for a ‘no more’ clause and makes 

very clear that within the State of Alaska when it comes to those 

areas that have been withdrawn from public land, that we have 

done more than any state should be asked to do. It is abiding by 

ANILCA that is a very, very strong and firm commitment that 

Alaskans want to see. 


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You have stated very clearly on the record here, and I think the 

words you used was, you said you are ‘‘absolutely against transfer 

and sale of public lands.’’ Now, we have had a conversation in my 

office, and you have met with the full delegation and had discussion about where you are coming from on this issue and understanding the Alaska lens on this. 

As you know, and as I made clear in my opening statement, 

there were promises made to the State of Alaska and statehood 

promises that are inherent in ANILCA, in the Alaska Native 

Claims Settlement Act, promises made to our natives and native 

people, promises made to the native veterans who were serving in 

Vietnam who were not able to receive their native allotments. 

These are commitments that have been made to the state that 

have not yet been fulfilled, and part of my real mission here in the 

Senate since I came was to make sure that these promises have 

been kept. 

Can you give some assurance to the people of Alaska that when 

we are talking about these issues, these promises, these commitments that have been made to our state, to our native peoples, to 

our Vietnam veterans, that you will work with us to fulfill those 

promises? 

Mr. ZINKE. Absolutely. And transfer or sale of public land is different than treaty obligations. I am very familiar, thanks to your 

staff, about the Vietnam issue. They were serving their country 

and, therefore, did not have the opportunity, and that is a treaty 

obligation, and a commitment, and a promise. So, I will work with 

you, and I look forward to working with you on this particular 

issue. 

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that the effort, if you will, to address the potential for a state forest is because of the frustration 

that we have had as a state in gaining access to any viable opportunity for timber harvests within our nation’s largest national forest? 

Mr. ZINKE. And that has been their frustration a lot is that people are so frustrated, they just lost hope, that the Federal entity, 

whether it is BLM or another entity, Forest Service, is capable of 

managing the land, or even capable of properly managing the land 

to remove even the dead and dying timber. So, my job—number 

one job is restore trust, and we can. 

Within the Department of Agriculture there are stewardship programs that allow management, and who’s better to manage it? 

These are collaborative efforts that we should look at about who is 

in the best position to manage the property. There is a difference 

between switching title and having the ability to manage. I think 

we can carefully go through that, and I will work with you on it, 

some is legislative, to do it. 

The CHAIRMAN. When we talk about frustration and we talk 

about who is best to manage something, another area of extreme 

frustration right now is with the decision from this Administration 

to basically seize the authority for Fish and Wildlife Management 

in our parks and in our refuges, even though those authorities are 

very specifically and very clearly reserved to Alaska under 

ANILCA. So, this is something that, again, I will ask you—— 


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I am assuming that you think that states are better positioned 

to manage fish and game decisions, and that it is not the Federal 

Government. I understand that you may have not worked that 

much on subsistence issues. But given the importance of this issue 

to Alaska, I need to have your commitment to a formal review with 

the Park Service and with Fish and Wildlife on their regs and really work with the State of Alaska to get us to a better place when 

it comes to an approach to the fish and game management decisions within the state. 

Mr. ZINKE. I look very much forward to reviewing—formal review 

of the process, as well I look forward to reviewing, you know, our 

management. Again, from a perspective of my life in management, 

centralized direction, decentralized execution. That means giving 

people local people, local communities, a say-so so there is not this 

divide that has occurred. 

As you know, we have talked about different parts of Alaska, especially in the lower part, where the opportunity to harvest timber 

in a reasonable, sustainable, traditional method has been taken off 

the table. That is hurting real communities. In some areas in 

Washington, the catastrophic fires. Why do we have fires at the extent and magnitude that we do each year? 

Senator Franken talked about global warming. The statistics I 

have from a single summer of forest fires in Rosebud County is 

which very few people know where Rosebud County is other than 

Senator Daines, made more particulate during that season than 

running 3,000 years of coal strip. So let us manage our forests. Let 

us manage our fires. Let us manage our lands the way it was intended to. That means having the voice of Alaska and the voice of 

the people that live there. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, and if I may, when we say how it was intended to, ANILCA lays out very, very clearly, again, their reservation to the State of Alaska with regards to the Fish and Wildlife 

Management authority, so I look forward to discussing this more 

with you. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. And if I could in 

the second round go back to some of the things that have been 

brought up and some of your testimony, and then to clarify more 

on some issues of great importance to the State of Washington. If 

we could on this chart, somebody mentioned there has been a war 

on coal. 

[The information referred to follows:] 


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rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset graphic 026 here 23615A.052
106 

In reality, I think this chart will show you there has been a 23 

percent—the first one there—23 percent decline in coal and an increase in natural gas. According to the Energy Information Agency, 

between 2000 and 2008, coal was significantly less expensive and 

supplied about 50 percent of our generation. But since the beginning of 2009, that gap between coal and natural gas prices has narrowed and a large amount of gas produced from the shale formations—I do not know if you want to blame fracking, but guess 

what? It has led to a lot more natural gas, a lot more lower natural 

gas pricing, and a lot more consumption of natural gas than coal. 

I do not know if you want to say that natural gas is having a 

war on coal. I am not going there. I am simply saying that this is 

the fact, that this has been driven by the market. According to the 

Energy Information Agency as well, this is a market function. 

Okay. The reason why this is an important question is, as we 

have discussed this issue about getting a fair deal for taxpayers, 

the GAO and the Interior Inspector General have both found that 

BLM recently undervalued Federal coal at a cost to the taxpayers 

of something like $60 million over 10 years. So, I want to make 

sure that when I asked you earlier, you said you were committed 

to reviewing this issue. I think one of our colleagues tried to get 

you to say you are ready to end the moratorium. 

What I want to know is are you going to make sure that taxpayers and fairness to taxpayers that the GAO Inspector has laid 

out are going to get your attention and the attention of this Administration? 

Mr. ZINKE. Absolutely. You know, I think using the objective statistics is important in making sure that our taxpayers get value, 

and I am very sensitive to that. I am also sensitive the great State 

of Washington on the whole issue. 

Senator CANTWELL. Right. Let me ask you about this because 

you also said, and I believe you, I think anybody who has represented Indian Country—well, I cannot say everybody, but most 

people who have represented Indian Country have had to deal with 

the issue of tribal sovereignty and have come down one way or another in understanding that. You seem to have articulated a very 

strong view of tribal sovereignty and tribal rights, particularly for 

treaty tribes that those treaties have outlined our obligations as a 

nation to nation status. Is that right? 

Mr. ZINKE. That is correct. 

Senator CANTWELL. So you believe that the Lummi Nation has 

a right to object to a coal terminal in Washington State based on 

their fishing rights and abrogation of their fishing rights? 

Mr. ZINKE. And I have obviously familiarity with this. Up front, 

when I was a representative in Montana, as I still currently do, I 

have always taken the position that I am strong on Indian issues. 

I am stronger and more familiar with Montana Indian issues. As 

a Secretary of the Interior, now I have to be strong on all issues. 

And on the Gateway—Pacific Gateway Terminal, what I raise my 

eyebrows on is I did not take a position whether yes or no on the 

terminal. I took a position to make sure the NEPA process was followed and the EIS was completed before making a judgment. What 

I found was we were close to ending the NEPA process with the 


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EIS and after years and millions of dollars were spent on it, and 

then that was truncated and stopped by affidavits. 

I did not judge whether the affidavits from the tribe were true 

or not true. It is just if you do not finish the NEPA process and 

do not finish EIS, and then all of a sudden that process can be interrupted and a permit can be pulled on the basis of something outside the EIS, why would you ever consent to spend millions of dollars on EIS? That was my objection, and I do not mean to speak 

for Senator Daines. 

Senator CANTWELL. So you believe in the tribal sovereignty of the 

Lummi Tribe to object in this case? 

Mr. ZINKE. They certainly had every right to object as well as in 

this case the Crows, who also have a treaty obligation. I also found 

that you were picking one tribe or another, and believe me, I am 

from a state where there are great tribes—great warrior tribes. 

Tribes are not monolithic even in Montana. There are traditions. 

There are cultures. But one should not be in the business of picking one treaty over another, at least arbitrarily. 

This is where working together—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Yeah, that is not—definitely not where we 

are going here. We are more about whether we are going to uphold 

their rights in the region and their ability to object on various developments that affect their ability to fish and maintain their—— 

Mr. ZINKE. And do we agree, absolutely. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I 

do have another question about the Yakima Basin. I will pass to 

my colleagues, and we will come back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Madam Chair. I had one more question I want to get to but ran out of time in the first round, and 

it was related to Indian Country and economic prosperity. 

Congressman Zinke, you have been a great partner working together on behalf of Indian Country. Well, there is fighting to enact 

the Blackfeet water settlement, and I think it is important for all 

of us to realize that that was approved by the Montana legislature 

seven years ago. With your leadership in the House and the work 

we did here in the Senate, we came together and got that passed 

in December. That is a monumental effort. It was a great win for 

the Blackfeet Tribe, and it is an example I think of the partnership 

that we have had going forward here to help Indian Country. 

You have been a champion in fighting on behalf of the Crow 

Tribes, as you mentioned here in the last exchange, their sovereign 

right to develop their coal resources. And as you said in your testimony, the unemployment rate in Crow Country will go north of 90 

percent if they lose those jobs. You have been fighting for Federal 

recognition for the Little Shell Tribe. The bottom line is Indian 

Country should be very excited to have you in their corner as the 

next Secretary of the Interior. 

My question is, tell us what you have done to help bring economic prosperity to Indian Country. 

Mr. ZINKE. A great question. You know, not enough. As you 

know, Montana is an awful big state. The first thing I have done 

is visited, and been around, and looked at the tribes. Again, they 

are not monolithic. The challenge in the Fort Peck Tribe, a lot of 


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drugs from the—from the Bakken. And to a degree, the Fort Peck 

Tribe is very maternalistic. They rely on the mothers and grandmothers, kind of the fabric of the tribe. Drugs have gone inside and 

they have created havoc where maybe one generation or two generations has been at risk of that, and that has caused enormous 

upheavals in the culture of the tribe. 

As well opportunity—economic opportunity. Not everyone lives in 

an area where you can develop casinos. A lot of the Montana tribes 

are isolated, so they rely on—they are resource centric on their— 

there are a couple of exceptions. 

But, first, I think is to understand and respect, is go the tribes 

and empower. Figure out what a specific tribe needs. One of the 

hurdles—this is a challenge, and this is why BIA is so important 

to get really good people in BIA that are willing to sacrifice and 

stay late and come to work early. It has been attempted multiple 

times before without a lot of success I would say. 

You know, talking to the great nations, you have got to listen 

and develop a plan with the tribes because, again, not every tribe 

is the same. Tribal healthcare is an issue. Tribal education is an 

issue. Prosperity, self-determination, and this is an issue that we 

should all care very deeply about on it because it is important. 

From a military point of view, I am adopted an Assiniboine. Michael Bell was a SEAL. I put him through training at Assiniboine. 

He went home on break and was stabbed in the back and killed 

on the reservation; a needless, pointless, painful death of a warrior. 

In a lot of tribes, being in the military has standing. Every time 

you go in and do either a pow-wow or a ceremony, military members always come in first. 

Here lies an opportunity for the military to help these tribes become leaders, and go back to the different tribes, and form the 

basis for lifting themselves and having self-determination. So, I 

think there is an opportunity for military. 

I think there is an opportunity in DOI in looking at our trail systems of—my wife was sent on a landing team, and real quickly, the 

trails team and the VA looked at opportunities for homeless and 

veterans to do cemetery repair. They have a whole program to do 

it. A lot of it is to be in the right uniform, show up on time. I think 

that program can be looked at in the DOI of our trails. We are way 

behind in maintenance of our trails. 

A lot of the Indian cultures have a strong tie to our trail systems, 

to our land, and it is a metric. The trail system starts in one point, 

ends in another part. This is a great opportunity for Indian nations 

to participate in a program that will get them out and work. But 

we have to work together with the tribes, and they—and they have 

to have buy in. 

Senator DAINES. I think, and I will wrap it up with a comment. 

The perspective you will bring to this job when you are confirmed 

as a Montanan living in the shadows of Glacier National Park—actually you were born near Yellowstone National Park and grew up 

near Glacier National Park. But I think what you also bring is 

your military background. 

When we talk about Indian Country, Native Americans have the 

highest percentage veteran population of any ethnic group in our 

country. Having your military service will bring, I think, an added 


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dynamic to help out Indian Country. With the BIA where we have 

these men and women—you mentioned the story of Mr. Bell, but 

these men and women who come home from serving overseas with 

security clearances, and then it takes us a year and a half to get 

their clearances. They want to get involved in law enforcement 

back on the reservation, and the BIA takes 12, 18 months to clear 

them when they already had a security clearance fighting for their 

country overseas, when we have all the drug problems and crime 

problems on the reservation that they could help by having more 

law enforcement. We have an open headcount there. 

You can do a lot to help Indian Country, and I am grateful they 

are going to have a champion there with their new Secretary of the 

Interior. 

Mr. ZINKE. And I look forward to it. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Daines. 

Senator Heinrich. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, and I want to start by giving you 

an opportunity to correct the record on something my colleague, 

Senator Franken, said. I believe while I was gone, and I do not 

want to misquote him, that he said that Smokey the Bear was not 

real. [Laughter.] 

I want to read to you from Wikipedia: ‘‘The living symbol of 

Smokey the Bear was an American Black Bear, three-month-old 

cub, who, in the spring of 1950 was caught in Capitan Gap fire in 

the Lincoln National Forest in New Mexico.’’ Do you dispute that? 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ZINKE. I do not, and my grandchildren behind me, and I also 

believe in Santa Claus. 

Senator HEINRICH. I just want to establish that. I want to go 

back to this tribal sovereignty theme and bring up an issue that 

the Department of the Interior, I think, actually deserves great 

credit for over the last few years. 

One of the most important duties for any Secretary is to uphold 

our nation’s trust responsibility, and tribes have been facing a tragic loss of their cultural patrimony through a growing international 

market for tribal religious objects. These objects are not art. They 

were not created to be sold. They are sacred objects that are central to tribes’ cultural and spiritual practices, and they were illegally stolen from the communities to which they belong. 

Acoma Pueblo in my home state has fought to repatriate a sacred 

shield from an auction house in Paris. I give great credit to the Department for doing the right thing, for being a stalwart ally and 

working with the State Department and Department of Justice to 

obtain a warrant for the shield’s return. That is an ongoing investigation, but I just want to ask you if you will commit to continuing 

to work with the Department of Justice, the Attorney General, the 

Secretary of State, to ensure that this remains a priority for all 

three of these departments? 

Mr. ZINKE. It remains—repatriation is an important issue, and 

I first became familiar with it when the Blackfeet had some of 

their ancestors actually in the Smithsonian. And the process of repatriation, because the tribe itself had different orders—they had 

the Beaver order and they had different sects within the tribe. The 


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repatriation process is enormously complicated and one that I do 

not pretend to understand, but I do understand that it is complicated, and even the tribe itself had to go, a number of rituals. 

Repatriation and making sure that artifacts that are important 

to their cultural identity, we need to pursue, and we need to facilitate the return on it, you know. If someone bought—rather than 

being stolen, if someone bought it, that is something we have got 

to work through, a legal framework, because if someone buys something legally with every good intent, that is different than someone 

who has pillaged and profited. I think the pillage and profiting side 

is absolutely without question an area that we need to pursue. 

Senator HEINRICH. I look forward to working with you on that. 

You made the statement about water in the West, and Federal 

water projects that the Bureau of Reclamation constructs and administers are really critical for states all up and down the Rocky 

Mountains. 

In New Mexico, the Navajo-Gallup water supply and the Ute 

pipeline projects will bring much needed water and infrastructure 

to parts of our state that truly deserve and need it. Communities 

like Portales and Clovis have seen wells run dry and groundwater 

reserves dwindle to only a 20-year supply. In addition, many Navajo families have literally never had running water. 

How are you going to ensure that the Bureau of Reclamation 

brings these kinds of critical infrastructure projects to completion, 

cost-effective completion? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, first, clean water I think is a right. It is not a 

privilege. So, we will start there. Our water challenges, particularly 

in the West, are immense. But we are a great nation. Let us 

prioritize what we need to do. 

Part of it, and I have always looked at infrastructure as not an 

expense, but it is an investment. Having an investment now will 

prevent a lot of heartburn, heartache and unintended consequences 

in the future, particularly when it comes to water. And expanding 

recreation, Americans want to go outside, and we need to give 

them the opportunity to do it. 

I keep on going back to the jobs bill. It is very difficult, as you 

know, on the House side it is probably more difficult than the Senate side in some areas. Spending money in the House side is extraordinarily difficult on things. But we are going to have to—we 

are going to have to meet in the middle on making sure we have 

priorities set and making sure those water issues are enough of a 

priority, especially when it comes to isolated areas. 

There are places in Montana—you know, Poplar—that really do 

not have access to water or any other way than to pipe it from long 

distances. And population in the Navajo Tribe, not a lot there. 

They are not going to be able to do it on their own, so you need 

a system in there to do it. It is expensive, recognizing it is expensive, and recognizing also that you do not need to over engineer everything so it is so cost prohibitive. 

There is new technology, new piping technology. Let us look at 

innovative ways that are more cost-effective. And we need to put 

a little pressure on perhaps the Army Corps of Engineers to faster 

adapt standards on some of these things, especially piping when it 

comes to water so we can get it there at a better price. 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Senator Barrasso. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Last Wednesday, in the final days of the Obama Administration, 

the BLM released a report detailing their review of the Federal 

Coal Program. The report laid out a road map for administrative 

action. The problem is this. The environmental impact statement 

on the Federal Coal Program has not yet even been completed. So, 

the Obama Administration once again shows its hands demonstrating that they believe the facts should not get in the way of 

their pre-determined outcome. So just as a comment from me, I am 

very hopeful that Department of the Interior under your direction, 

once confirmed, will operate differently under you and the new Administration. 

A lot of this hearing today concerned things that we are able to 

repeal, roll back, otherwise eliminate. But as Secretary of the Interior, you are going to have the opportunity—an incredible opportunity—to create a real culture of change in an agency that I believe desperately needs it. And while the Department of the Interior houses the BLM, the Bureau of Reclamation, Fish and Wildlife, and others, the Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture. We talked, and Senator Wyden brought up the issue earlier today about forestry, fire borrowing. Senator Cantwell and I 

held a hearing in Seattle about the issues of wildfire and the concerns. 

Given that so many of the forested lands are outside of the Department of Interior’s control, what would you do as Secretary of 

Interior to improve forest health on lands in your jurisdiction, and 

how can we coordinate efforts with the Department of Agriculture 

and the Forest Chief? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, up front, I think we need to look at the Forest 

Service and our land management policies, and have the discussion 

about what is the best method of managing our lands. As you go 

out West, the checkerboard system, when it was put in, you know, 

and there was a reason why Ag has Forest Service at the time. I 

think we need to re-evaluate it and look at what is the best method 

to make sure we have the efficiency, making sure our fire policy 

is consistent between BLM land and Forest Service land, making 

sure access is consistent between Forest Service and BLM. 

In Montana we have a lot of the Canadian border, and it turns 

out the Forest Service does not even give a key to their Homeland 

Security guys to do a security run along a road on the border. So 

even between the agencies there is a cultural roadblock to working 

with each other, even when it comes to borrowing a set of keys to 

go on a road. 

I think everything should be on the table. And, again, I talked 

about a road map for the next 100 years. Let us be bold. Let us 

not come in with agendas. Let us come in with where we want to 

be 100 years from now on our public lands. There are certain 

things we are going to agree on. I think there is going to be a lot 

more we are going to agree on than disagree. But on those things 

we can agree, let us look at a roadmap going forward and have the 

discussion. 

Senator BARRASSO. You may be familiar with President Obama’s 

2015 presidential memorandum on mitigation. The memorandum 


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called for new mitigation policies from the Department of Interior 

and Fish and Wildlife Service. Last May, a Wyoming rancher came, 

sat here and testified before this committee on one of those policies, 

the one focused on compensatory mitigation, and basically it 

amounted to extortion. So are you going to commit to revisiting the 

Department’s various mitigation policies to ensure that future requirements are more practical? 

Mr. ZINKE. I am going to be very, very busy, if confirmed, and 

I will work with every state because you matter. Wyoming matters, 

and every state matters. If there are policies that are perceived as 

punitive that are not working in your state, my obligation is to 

work with you because you matter. Wyoming matters. Alaska matters. Washington matters. West Virginia matters, and New Mexico 

matters. Not only members of this committee, but Congress matters. 

In my opening statement I meant what I said about the arch for 

the benefit and enjoyment of people. I also absolutely meant when 

I said it was erected by Congress, by an act of Congress. That is 

an important point that we need to go back to, about making sure 

you represent your great state and your constituency and that 

should be respected in our policies. 

Senator BARRASSO. In terms of being very busy and what matters, I would tell you as a former Chairman of the Indian Affairs 

Committee, the three of us have been former chairmen of the Indian Affairs Committee. I think the Bureau of Indian Affairs is 

going to require significant attention from the next Secretary of the 

Interior. I think I would get an agreement here. We have all seen 

how a culture of dysfunction within the BIA has real disastrous 

human implications, so I appreciate your efforts there as well. 

Madam Chairman, I see my time has expired. So, Senator Heinrich and I will come together and compose written questions regarding Smokey the Bear, Yogi Bear, and the teddy bear. So, we 

will submit those. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Barrasso. 

Senator Manchin. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Congressman, for being here and putting yourself on the line. I appreciate it very much. I also want to commend you for having a bipartisan introduction. That does not happen that often. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, thank you. 

Senator MANCHIN. I did not know if you wanted to comment on 

that one or not. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, you know, I am glad because hopefully I have 

bipartisan support. 

Senator MANCHIN. Yes. 

Mr. ZINKE. But I think that is what we need for this job because 

the job is not Republican or Democrat. It is America. 

Senator MANCHIN. Right. 

Mr. ZINKE. This job is steward—— 

Senator MANCHIN. Well, let me say also. You came and visited 

me, and we had a great visit and a great talk about things we both 

hold near and dear to us. You also promised that you would come 

to the State of West Virginia. 


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Mr. ZINKE. Yes. 

Senator MANCHIN. But I also noticed everyone else asked for the 

same, so I need to know in what order. [Laughter.] 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, my first order is the great State of Utah. There 

are some real—the SEALS call it the five-meter targets. Up close 

we have a problem out in North Dakota because that could go bad 

in a number of different ways. We have a problem in obviously the 

great State of Utah. And Alaska is always important to me. 

Senator MANCHIN. I still do not know where I am in the pecking 

order—— 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ZINKE. West Virginia is an easy drive. [Laughter.] 

Senator MANCHIN. I know you are coming. I know that. Let me 

talk about the Stream Protection Rule because I think that a lot 

of times, especially coming from the State of West Virginia, an extraction like Montana, a lot of people think we do not care about 

the Clean Water Act or the Clean Air Act, Safe Drinking Water 

Act, and many other laws that have been fundamental in improving all of our lives. I want everyone to know that there is no way 

that we are rolling back any of those. 

But there are some of these that are just so far reaching and 

make no sense whatsoever. I cannot even get some people to tell 

me what the definition of a ‘‘stream’’ is. If you could give me a little 

bit, just quickly as stream protection, what is your position on 

using the Review Act CRA to rescind this regulation? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, thank you for the question. It is important to 

me. Oddly enough, as I was reviewing the transcript from Secretary Jewell as I came in before this committee, one of the questions was can you define a stream. So that is a question. 

The Stream Protection Rule, in my mind, is about water. All of 

us should agree that we want clean water, and all of us should also 

recognize that geology is different. As a geologist, the geology in 

Appalachia, is much, much different, and a policy about stream 

protection, when it is looked at specifically in the Appalachians, I 

think quite frankly we can do better. 

This is where one size does not fit all. We need to make sure that 

if we are going to mine, drill, harvest, that we want to do it right. 

Protection of water is—has to be a priority with that. So there are 

ways absolutely to make sure absolutely that we do it right and 

protect our water. 

Senator MANCHIN. Good. 

Mr. ZINKE. And I am willing to work with you. 

Senator MANCHIN. But a stream should have water in it, right? 

Mr. ZINKE. A stream should have water and internectivity. 

Senator MANCHIN. It all helps. 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, subsurface, surface, connectivity, movement of 

water. Again, you can isolate different areas. When they talk about 

runoff, what is runoff if it is captured in a holding pond? What is 

runoff during a storm drain? These are issues. You can take it too 

far in every case where it becomes punitive and you are not going 

to get anything done. 

Senator MANCHIN. You can imagine in our state with the terrain 

that we have, topography that we have, how difficult it is to do 

anything. You cannot even build a house. If they want to shut you 


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down, they can shut you down, everything. It is just absolutely so 

onerous, it is just ridiculous. And I am glad that you—— 

Mr. ZINKE. And I have climbed on Seneca Rocks and been to—— 

Senator MANCHIN. You have been right where I have been. You 

have got a lot of common sense there and all that. I have got one 

more point which is the abandoned mine AML money, Abandoned 

Mine Reclamation. That is under SMCRA, and that is one of the 

biggest things you have. 

Since 1977, there has been $10.5 billion in fees from coal production, okay? Ten-and-a-half billion dollars. Eight billion of that has 

been distributed as grants to states and tribes to land and water 

reclamation projects administered by the OSM and the UMWA retiree plans. There is still a large amount of high priority sites that 

remain in the OSM’s inventory that must be reclaimed. 

I wanted to ask your opinion on AML, the way it has been distributed, and should that money be for the purpose it was designed 

to be used for, all coal related, or should it be able to be used by 

states for other things that basically are not coal related, since all 

the money comes from coal? 

Mr. ZINKE. This is the same argument with the Land and Water 

Conservation Fund that we both support. 

Senator MANCHIN. Sure. 

Mr. ZINKE. I think it the revenue source is narrowed and used 

outside of that, I think there is a legitimate argument about that. 

In Montana, from a Montana congressman perspective, we have 

hundreds of mines that were mined during the turn of the 18th or 

19th century that our reclamation list of going through and cleaning up the sites is long. So, that fund has been used to clean up 

sites in Nevada, and I am sure New Mexico, and most of it. So, 

there is absolutely a requirement to clean it up. 

The discussion should be, I think, how do we appropriate the 

funds correctly so one industry does not bear the burden as in the 

Land and Water Conservation Fund. Offshore bears almost the entire burden of revenue, yet the funds do not go along the coast. 

Should hard rock mining, you know, also contribute to that? 

Senator MANCHIN. They do not pay anything. 

Mr. ZINKE. This is where we need to have the discussion, and 

this is where I have to—I should work with you because this is a 

change in the law. The law should be fair. It should be appropriate. 

But we also have to recognize that reclamation of these sites is incredibly important because these sites oftentimes—and we have 

hundreds of sites in Montana. I do not do not know what the inventory is nationwide, but I am sure in every state there is probably 

something that we need to attend to. 

Senator MANCHIN. Well, let me just say I want to thank you for 

your testimony and being so frank and direct with this. And fairness within the system. That is all I have ever said, treat us all 

the same, fairness to it, because some mining pays nothing, but 

they do receive, and that is not right. It is all because of politics 

here. All because of politics, and that could be changed. 

Mr. ZINKE. I will be glad to work with you on it, because I think 

it needs to be fair. Our laws need to be transparent and fair. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you so much, sir. 


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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Manchin. Chairman’s prerogative says that we can do one more quick go-around. 

I have just two more questions, and I hope they will be brief. 

When we deal with some of the projects that have so much potential, for instance whether it is the potential to be able to utilize the 

natural gas that we have in Alaska’s North Slope, we are going to 

have to figure out the way that we move that gas to tidewater, 

move it to the market. That will require a process. You have got 

to get a host of timely-issued Federal environmental permits. The 

longer the delay for the permits, the more expensive the project is. 

I would like your commitment to be working with us, not only 

for projects like the Alaska LNG Project, but also recognizing that 

when it comes to our domestic mineral production, we are sitting 

dead last in the amount of time it takes to get yes or no answers 

to get these permits for our domestic minerals production. We talk 

a lot about the vulnerability that we have as a nation looking to 

other nations for oil and relying on oil. Well we are headed that 

same direction when it comes to minerals because we need the 

minerals that will make things like this, or the vehicles, or the 

wind turbines that we are relying on for renewable energy. But 

this permitting process that we are dealing with can oftentimes 

just end up being this dead zone where the costs pile on, the 

projects get delayed and folks give up. 

I would like your focus, your muscle behind ensuring that we 

have a fair process that it is an expeditious process and one that 

really works efficiently, because so much of the frustration, so 

much of this lack of trust that you have been talking about I think 

stems from much of what people see that they term bureaucratic 

delay and unnecessary red tape. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, I agree, and when the process becomes arbitrary, and we talked about taxpayer value. When you are bidding 

on a piece of property to either mine or drill, and that value is significantly reduced because of uncertainty, the taxpayer does not get 

its full value on it. So, on a permit process, it has to be fair. It cannot be arbitrary, but there has to—I am not going to say certainty, 

but certainly when you are bidding on a project, the value of that 

bid is on the basis that you can execute it. When there is no certainty of execution, then as a taxpayer, we do not get the right 

price for it. 

So, our permitting process is broken. It is somewhat arbitrary, 

and I do think we need to focus on it. But it needs to be fair, and 

it needs to be a process where NEPA considerations do need to be 

taken, because we all want the same thing. Hopefully we do. We 

all want clean air, clean water and to make sure that we understand consequences. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I look forward to working with you on that. 

Last question. The current Secretary of the Interior knew that 

she could not come into this committee room without me asking a 

question about the status of her effort to assist the close to some 

1,000 people that live in the little Aleut community of King Cove 

and how we are going to make sure that they, too, have access to 

what most Americans would consider just an essential part of living and that is access to a lifesaving road that could get them out 

in the event of a medical emergency. 


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The fine people of King Cove have been fighting this fight for 

over three decades. They have been let down repeatedly by their 

Federal Government. They do not trust their Federal Government 

because repeatedly they have been told that there is higher value 

to the animals and the birds than there is to their human life. That 

is pretty hard. 

I am going to ask you, recognizing the Federal trust obligation 

that you have as you begin this new role, recognizing that you have 

clear compassion for our native peoples, I am asking you to do everything that you possibly can to work with us to reopen, review 

this decision that has led to a rejection of this lifesaving road. 

Mr. ZINKE. You have my absolute commitment that I will restore 

trust and work with you on this issue because it is important. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. ZINKE. I did not know where King Cove was before I was 

nominated for the job. I know where it is now. 

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to take you out there when we open 

a road, and you will know it firsthand. 

Mr. ZINKE. I cannot wait to meet the great people of—the 1,000 

people of King Cove. 

The CHAIRMAN. They are beautiful. 

Mr. ZINKE. I know where it is on the map now. I do not know 

the ground, but I look forward to being there. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. A couple of last 

issues. Again, thanks to your family for sustaining what probably 

is going to be a four-hour hearing. But these are important land 

issues for our nation, and we thank you for your willingness to 

serve. 

The Bureau of Reclamation is already funding critical work on 

what is called the Yakima Basin Project. It is funding fish passage, 

and reclamation and water conservation projects. I want to get 

your commitment to continue the work of and recommendations of 

the Bureau on the Yakima Basin Project on its innovation and conservation, and would like the same understanding that you gave to 

my colleague that these water issues are not earmarks. They are 

moving forward on serious drought issues for our nation. 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you, and I think you have a wonderful staff 

because I have begun to be familiar with the issue, and I look forward to working with you on it because this is important. Montana 

is not that far away on it. Issues of water, the Snake River drainage begins in Montana all the way across the Columbia. I get it, 

and I am looking forward to working with you and making sure it 

is done. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. I appreciate that. You mentioned 

the efforts of your agencies, USGS specifically, on the science side. 

One of the key interests of the Pacific Northwest unfortunately 

after an incredible, very unfortunate disaster in Oso where 43 people were killed, is the notion of LIDAR, being able to use light detection ranging, as a key way of looking at landslide possibilities. 

Will you continue to push LIDAR funding as part of your next 

budget request for USGS? 

Mr. ZINKE. I will. I have to review it because there are some 

emerging technologies, particularly in the UABs, that actually may 


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be better suited. But I am committed to making sure we have the 

right data. 

Senator CANTWELL. Okay. 

Mr. ZINKE. The specific method on how we get there, I think 

there is a discussion. As technology goes forward, there is some 

promising technology on survey. 

Senator CANTWELL. I like the fact that you are committed to ongoing technology to help us on these issues. I think technology is 

emerging that is going to give us a much clearer picture about both 

drought and its impacts and warming conditions on fire and our 

water resource issues, and I think it can help us greatly. I am glad 

you are willing to use that. 

The Spokane Reservation Equitable Compensation Act is also 

something that has involved the Department of the Interior. It has 

literally passed both the House and Senate. It has been supported 

by the last agency and previous Secretaries. Will you take a look 

at this and look at ways to support the Spokane tribe on their settlement for the construction of dams that caused flooding in the region, taking away their opportunities? 

Mr. ZINKE. I look forward to looking at it. I, too, used to shop 

at the Bon Marche in Spokane, so I am familiar with the area, but 

I am not familiar with this specific thing. But I look forward to 

looking at it with you. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Heinrich, a final question? 

Senator HEINRICH. Congressman, I know you are a passionate 

sportsman. It is one of the things I like about you. I think I mentioned in our meeting that I spent four days with my two sons over 

the holidays on one of the Department of the Interior’s BLM wilderness study areas. I am proud to say on that trip my 13-yearold took his first elk, and I think both boys will never forget that 

trip. 

But I suspect, if Montana is like New Mexico, you have also experienced losing legal access to public land, experienced what it is 

like to drive up on a maintained road that you always knew was 

there and find for the first time a locked gate. 

I have a bill called the Hunt Act to help address this kind of 

issue. I am not going to ask you about my bill, but I will ask you 

to commit to working with me on those kinds of access issues that 

have really moved to the forefront of concerns by sportsmen up and 

down the Rocky Mountain West. 

Mr. ZINKE. I would absolutely. In my opening remarks, I specifically mentioned access for a reason. I am concerned, and I am concerned that not only our generation but our next generation will 

continuously see closed roads, fences and lack of access so traditional hunting and fishing almost are positioned as an elite sport. 

Senator HEINRICH. I think I have seen a television show filmed 

in your state where Randy Newberg, in order to access BLM land, 

literally had to rent a helicopter to get dropped in because over the 

years, access to the private lands around it had been cut off. I 

think it is something we need to just understand the scale of so 

that we can come up with strategies either through, you know, for 

example, using LWCF for easements as opposed to outright land 


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purchases, or other strategies to make sure that we do not have 

public land that the public cannot use. 

Mr. ZINKE. I agree with you. I think Americans should not be 

locked out of their national treasures. We are seeing that more and 

more, that access is becoming more difficult and restrained, and I 

share your concern with it. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. 

Senator Manchin. 

Senator MANCHIN. One final question. Congressman, your jurisdiction is over an awful lot of timber, timber land, and national 

parks, wildlife, refuge, fish and wildlife. Our newly sworn in, newly 

inaugurated Governor, Jim Justice, yesterday was giving a speech. 

Very interesting. West Virginia is one of the most covered forested 

states in the nation, and we have an awful lot of environmentalists 

who are upset with the CO2, and we are trying to do everything 

we can with technology. However, we use our energy. 

What they fail to recognize is that we have an awful lot of timber 

that is not going to be harvested, and by not having select timber 

harvesting, you cut this tree down and you make this right here. 

The carbon is inside here. It is stored. It is not going anywhere. 

If you let that tree fall and let it decay and rot like some people 

want, the CO2 is all emitted, every bit of it. I know it is a big 

thing. Oh, we cannot cut here, and we cannot go in here. We are 

emitting so much CO2 into the air. They are very much concerned 

if we burn one lump of coal, by god, shut it down, but do not let 

the timber just rot and go to waste without ever trying to use it 

for productive and also environmental consequences. I do not know 

how we are managing. Do we have select timber harvesting and 

things of that sort in the government properties that you are over? 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, currently I would say that management policy 

has been fire, and I am not—— 

Senator MANCHIN. That is great. 

Mr. ZINKE [continuing]. An advocate for management by catastrophic fire. That is the group that believes that we should naturally manage by natural regulation. I am an advocate for healthy, 

resilient forests. 

Senator MANCHIN. Do you think if we got the really, really good 

environmentalists, concerned environmentalists, together and they 

could see scientifically what is happening, that they might be able 

to work with you, or are you willing to try to go down that path? 

Mr. ZINKE. I think for most of Americans, we want good policy. 

Senator MANCHIN. Yes. 

Mr. ZINKE. There are extremes on both sides that simply will not 

negotiate. There is an extreme on both the right and left that simply are driven, and they are not negotiable in their views. I think 

anyone who serves the country, serves a constituency, and within, 

you know, the public there are broad views, but you look at what 

the best policy is. 

My wife, and I, and family spent some time in Germany. They 

have different management policies. Canada has different management policies for their forests. We have great people that go 

through the forestry programs, but they are frustrated, too. I have 

talked to the forest ranger. They feel like they do not have the 


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tools, and they do not have the authority to manage the forests 

when they are healthy, and they are, too, concerned about even removing dead and dying timber. 

Senator MANCHIN. I know. 

Mr. ZINKE. When Forest Service is 71 acres behind in just removing dead and dying timber, something has gone wrong. 

Senator MANCHIN. Here is the thing. In his speech yesterday, he 

made it so crystal clear, and he held up a piece of wood, and he 

said—you know, the podium he was speaking at. He says, a lot of 

CO2, but it is right here. He says, everything you all make us 

waste, and let fall, and let nature take its course emits into the air. 

He said, so someone is going to have to make a decision pretty 

soon. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Manchin, thank you. 

Representative Zinke, thank you. Thank you for being here 

today. Thank you for your willingness to serve. We thank you, and 

we thank your family because public service, you the face, but we 

know that the families stand behind you, allow you to be that public servant. So, to all of the family, thank you, Mrs. Zinke and to 

the family. To these granddaughters in the back, you get gold stars 

for absolute best behavior, yes. 

[Applause.] 

We thank you for supporting your grandpa in such a good way. 

We appreciate that. 

I do thank the members of the committee. We had great participation this afternoon. The questions were truly broad ranging, but 

I think you can tell, Congressman, this is a committee that likes 

to get into the real meat of the issues, the policies. We try to do 

good work. We try to do work here on a very cooperative, collaborative, bipartisan basis. 

Should you be confirmed, as I believe you will be, we look forward to continuing a dialogue that is really very open and one that 

is designed to be collaborative and bipartisan. We would welcome 

that. 

I would like to remind my colleagues we have agreed that members may submit additional questions for the record. We will hold 

it open for another couple hours, so let us just say by 8:30 this 

evening, all QFRs would be in. 

I would also ask unanimous consent to submit several letters of 

support for Representative Zinke for the record of this hearing that 

we have received. We did ask that members submit any of their 

own to our Chief Clerk, Darla Ripchensky. 

With that, again, we thank you, and the committee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 6:05 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 


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rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 244 here 23615A.065
134 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 245 here 23615A.066
135 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 246 here 23615A.067
136 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 247 here 23615A.068
137 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 248 here 23615A.069
138 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 249 here 23615A.070
139 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 250 here 23615A.071
140 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 251 here 23615A.072
141 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 252 here 23615A.073
142 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 253 here 23615A.074
143 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 254 here 23615A.075
144 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 255 here 23615A.076
145 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 256 here 23615A.077
146 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 257 here 23615A.078
147 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 258 here 23615A.079
148 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 259 here 23615A.080
149 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 260 here 23615A.081
150 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 261 here 23615A.082
151 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 262 here 23615A.083
152 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 263 here 23615A.084
153 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 264 here 23615A.085
154 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 265 here 23615A.086
155 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 266 here 23615A.087
156 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 267 here 23615A.088
157 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 268 here 23615A.089
158 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 269 here 23615A.090
159 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 270 here 23615A.091
160 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 271 here 23615A.092
161 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 272 here 23615A.093
162 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 273 here 23615A.094
163 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 274 here 23615A.095
164 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 275 here 23615A.096
165 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 276 here 23615A.097
166 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 277 here 23615A.098
167 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 278 here 23615A.099
168 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 279 here 23615A.100
169 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 280 here 23615A.101
170 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 281 here 23615A.102
171 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 282 here 23615A.103
172 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 283 here 23615A.104
173 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 284 here 23615A.105
174 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 285 here 23615A.106
175 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 286 here 23615A.107
176 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 287 here 23615A.108
177 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 288 here 23615A.109
178 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 289 here 23615A.110
179 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 290 here 23615A.111
180 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 291 here 23615A.112
181 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 292 here 23615A.113
182 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 293 here 23615A.114
183 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 294 here 23615A.115
184 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 296 here 23615A.117
185 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 295 here 23615A.116
186 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 297 here 23615A.118
187 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 298 here 23615A.119
188 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 299 here 23615A.120
189 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 305 here 23615A.126
190 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 300 here 23615A.121
191 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 301 here 23615A.122
192 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 302 here 23615A.123
193 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 303 here 23615A.124
194 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 304 here 23615A.125
195 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 307 here 23615A.128
196 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 308 here 23615A.129
197 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 309 here 23615A.130
198 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 310 here 23615A.131
199 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 311 here 23615A.132
200 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 312 here 23615A.133
201 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 313 here 23615A.134
202 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 314 here 23615A.135
203 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 315 here 23615A.136
204 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 316 here 23615A.137
205 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 317 here 23615A.138
206 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 318 here 23615A.139
207 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 319 here 23615A.140
208 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 320 here 23615A.141
209 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 321 here 23615A.142
210 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 322 here 23615A.143
211 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 323 here 23615A.144
212 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 324 here 23615A.145
213 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 325 here 23615A.146
214 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 326 here 23615A.147
215 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 327 here 23615A.148
216 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 328 here 23615A.149
217 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 329 here 23615A.150
218 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 330 here 23615A.151
219 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 331 here 23615A.152
220 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 332 here 23615A.153
221 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 333 here 23615A.154
222 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 334 here 23615A.155
223 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 335 here 23615A.156
224 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 336 here 23615A.157
225 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 337 here 23615A.158
226 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 338 here 23615A.159
227 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 339 here 23615A.160
228 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 340 here 23615A.161
229 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 341 here 23615A.162
230 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 342 here 23615A.163
231 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 343 here 23615A.164
232 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 344 here 23615A.165
233 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 345 here 23615A.166
234 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 346 here 23615A.167
235 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 347 here 23615A.168
236 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 348 here 23615A.169
237 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGInsert offset folio 349 here 23615A.170