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S. HRG. 113–838 

EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR SERVICE 

MEMBERS AND VETERANS IN HIGHER EDUCATION 

HEARING 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, 

LABOR, AND PENSIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

ON

EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR SERVICE MEMBERS AND 

VETERANS IN HIGHER EDUCATION 

MAY 22, 2014 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/ 

COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS 

TOM HARKIN, Iowa, Chairman 

BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland 

PATTY MURRAY, Washington 

BERNARD SANDERS (I), Vermont 

ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania 

KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado 

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island 

TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin 

CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut 

ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

RICHARD BURR, North Carolina 

JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah 

PAT ROBERTS, Kansas 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska 

MARK KIRK, Illinois 

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina 

DEREK MILLER, Staff Director 

LAUREN MCFERRAN, Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel 

DAVID P. CLEARY, Republican Staff Director 

(II) 

C O N T E N T S 

STATEMENTS 

THURSDAY, MAY 22, 2014 

Page 

COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Sanders, Hon. Bernard, a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont ................... 1 

Burr, Hon. Richard, a U.S. Senator from the State of North Carolina ............... 3 

Baldwin, Hon. Tammy, a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin .................. 4 

Franken, Hon. Al, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota .......................... 4 

Murphy, Hon. Christopher, a U.S. Senator from the State of Connecticut ........ 28 

Warren, Hon. Elizabeth, a U.S. Senator from the State of Massachusetts ........ 31 

Casey, Hon. Robert P., Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania ...... 34 

WITNESSES

Starks, Lauren Thompson, Senior Policy Advisor, Office of the Under Secretary, Department of Education, Washington, DC .......................................... 5 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 6 

Langdon, Thomas L., Director, State Liaison and Educational Opportunity, 

Under Secretary of Defense, Personnel and Readiness, Office of the Deputy 

Under Secretary of Defense for Military, Community, and Family Policy, 

Alexandria, VA ..................................................................................................... 8 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 9 

Hubbard, William, Vice President of External Affairs, Student Veterans of 

America, Washington, DC ................................................................................... 12 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 13 

Carlson, David, Coordinator of Student Veteran Services, University of 

Vermont, Burlington, VT ..................................................................................... 16 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 17 

Rhinehardt, Kimrey, Vice President of Federal Relations, University of North 

Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC ................................................................................... 19 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 20 

(III) 

(1) 

EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR 

SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS IN 

HIGHER EDUCATION 

THURSDAY, MAY 22, 2014 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS, 

Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in room 

SD–430, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bernie Sanders, presiding. 

Present: Senators Sanders, Harkin, Casey, Franken, Baldwin, 

Murphy, Warren, and Burr. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SANDERS

Senator SANDERS. Good morning. 

Thank you all for coming, and I want to extend a special thanks 

to our panelists who have a whole lot to say on a very important 

issue. 

I want to thank, for a moment, Chairman Harkin, for inviting 

me to chair this Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions committee 

roundtable today, and I am pleased to be joined by Senator Burr, 

Senator Baldwin, and others, I suspect will be coming. 

The Department of Defense estimates that approximately 

250,000 to 300,000 service members will separate annually over 

the next 4 years. That is more than 1 million brave men and 

women transitioning back to civilian life. 

As Chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs committee, and 

Senator Burr is the ranking member of that committee, I think we 

can tell you how important it is that these service members get the 

tools they need for successful transition. I think we can all agree 

that for many service members, getting an education is a critical 

component of that transition. 

Today’s discussion will help us determine ways that the Higher 

Education Act is helping us achieve those goals, and find areas 

where there are problems, and where we can make improvements. 

Today, the unemployment rate for veterans who served after 

9/11 is higher than the unemployment rate for nonveterans. The 

Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that as of April 2014, the unemployment rate for post–9/11 veterans was 6.8 percent. In reality, if 

you factor in people who are working part-time when they want to 

work full-time, that number is probably higher. 

We are making progress in lowering those numbers and a major 

contributing factor has been the post–9/11 G.I. bill, which has gone 

2 

further to support student veterans than any of its predecessors. 

And I consider it to be a landmark piece of legislation in helping 

something like 1 million veterans and their families. 

Since 2009, the V.A. has paid more than 1 million post–9/11 beneficiaries more than $40 billion. This is a significant piece of 

legislation. In 2013, it was one of the largest of the Federal Government’s education programs. The V.A. estimates the number of 

beneficiaries will continue to grow. 

To support those veterans using this benefit, and to ensure that 

they get the most out of it, V.A. has expanded its VetSuccess On 

Campus programs to 94 locations around the country. VetSuccess 

counselors are V.A. employees who work on college campuses and 

provide a range of services that holistically address the needs of 

student veterans as they integrate into college life from adjustment 

counseling, to vocational testing, to career counseling. These counselors also assist veterans with disability accommodations and provide referrals for health services through V.A. medical centers, 

community-based outpatient clinics or vet centers. 

Despite its success, there are still aspects of the post–9/11 G.I. 

bill that can be improved. In fact, to help keep costs manageable 

for student veterans, I introduced legislation, along with Senator 

Burr, that would require public colleges and universities to provide 

certain recently discharged service members the in-State tuition 

rates. This legislation is included as a provision of the pending bill 

S. 1982, the Comprehensive Veterans Health and Benefits Military 

Retirement Pay Restoration Act. 

Veterans often choose to begin their education immediately following separation from the military, making the university campus 

a primary entry point into civilian society. This can be a mixed 

blessing, as veterans are often nontraditional students whose attention is divided between having a family, maintaining a home, 

and working a full-time job. 

Fortunately in addition to V.A., there are also things that schools 

can and are doing to assist veterans during this stressful time. 

However, the traditional higher education system has only just 

begun to accommodate the needs of nontraditional students. Institutions must learn how to best accommodate unique issues facing 

our military and veteran students including students who can unexpectedly be called to active duty and must interrupt their 

coursework for unknown lengths of time. 

In addition to these unique challenges, I am concerned that active duty service members and student veterans are suffering the 

consequences of a continued failure by some corporations to comply 

with the protections guaranteed to them in Federal law. 

I, along with many other members of this committee, was deeply 

troubled last week when it was revealed that the Department of 

Justice had filed a lawsuit and proposed settlement alleging Sallie 

Mae violated the rights of approximately 60,000 service members 

by failing to comply with provisions of the Servicemembers Civil 

Relief Act. 

The Veterans’ Affairs committee held a hearing on this issue last 

year, and I will echo my comments. We must continue to improve 

education and outreach on the protections of the SCRA. Industry 

must redouble its efforts to improve the compliance with the Act. 

3 

And finally, aggressive enforcement of these protections must continue when violations occur. 

I firmly believe that the brave men and women serving our country should not be subjected to the types of behavior we have seen 

from some in the private sector. These continuing violations are 

completely unacceptable and that behavior must cease. 

Let me conclude by saying that what I hope we can accomplish 

today is to foster a productive conversation about how schools are 

meeting the needs of veterans and service members, what more can 

be done to ensure veterans are not putting themselves into financial trouble in order to get an education and, ultimately identify 

what this committee, and the Veterans committee by extension, 

can do to assist with these efforts. 

I believe we have the right people here to answer these questions. I want to thank all of you for being here, and I look forward 

to a productive discussion. 

Senator Burr. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR BURR

Senator BURR. Thank you, Senator Sanders, and thanks to 

Chairman Harkin and Ranking Member Alexander for giving us 

the opportunity to preside over this hearing. 

The series of Higher Education Act reauthorization hearings 

have been bipartisan in nature and extremely informative for the 

committee as we undertake a rewrite of our Nation’s higher education laws. I applaud Senator Harkin and Senator Alexander for 

their commitment to these hearings and to the comedy with which 

they have both handled this. 

North Carolina is home to almost 800,000 veterans making my 

State one of the largest homes for veterans in the country. We take 

pride in that status, but also in the fact that a large percentage of 

those veterans choose to stay for our high quality colleges and universities. 

Today, we will hear from Kimrey Rhinehardt, vice president of 

Federal Relations at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill 

or the University of North Carolina. The UNC System, through its 

UNC SERVES initiative, has become a model for the country for 

how a large university system can integrate veterans returning 

from service into the college setting in a way that caters to their 

individual needs, but also provides an environment that enhances 

their opportunity for completion. 

It is important to keep in mind how unique today’s veteran and 

service member students actually are. Recent data indicates 62 

percent are first in their family to attend college compared to 43 

percent for nonveteran civilian students. They also tend to be much 

older and an average age of 33 compared to their civilian peers 22. 

These students tend to commute to school, carry a full-time job, 

have dependents, which all makes the circumstances different and 

worth a college or a university’s consideration when providing oncampus services. 

Additionally, as troops return from Iraq and Afghanistan, postsecondary institutions are facing the largest influx of veterans on 

their campus in generations. Higher education has a role to play 

in ensuring these heroes have an opportunity to succeed on their 

4 

campus. I am proud of UNC’s success in this regard. And I urge 

my colleagues to listen carefully to the good things happening in 

my State that can inform best practices for all States. 

With that, I hope that today’s roundtable provides a robust conversation about these issues and I look forward to hearing from a 

great panel of witnesses. I welcome them all. 

Thank you. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you, Senator Burr. 

Senator Baldwin. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR BALDWIN

Senator BALDWIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I am delighted that you have held this hearing today. and I very 

much look forward to having a conversation with our witnesses. 

It is of the utmost importance that our warriors are able to work 

toward their education goals while actively serving and once they 

return from the battlefield. Leaving school with significant student 

loan debt is a reality for too many Americans, but it is a particularly acute problem for our veterans, and this is unacceptable. We 

have to do everything in our power to ensure that our service members and veterans have the financial, social, and emotional support 

needed to succeed. 

Again, thank you for convening us. Thank you to our Ranking 

Member, and I look forward to the discussion that will ensue. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you. 

Senator Franken. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR FRANKEN

Senator FRANKEN. I want to thank the witnesses for being here 

and I want to thank, you, Senator Sanders for all your work on veterans issues; thank you, Senator Burr. 

There are a lot of issues here that we will get into today, one of 

which is the skills that are—and I know Dr. Langdon, you speak 

this in your testimony—the skills that our veterans come to their 

college careers already having, and many have worked in communications and very high tech communications in a war zone, and 

then do not get any kind of credit for that. And I think that is 

among the issues that I discuss with veterans who are in colleges 

in Minnesota. 

There are a lot of other issues that we will get to today, and I 

want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing, and 

look forward to your testimony, and our discussion. 

Thank you. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you very much, Senator Franken. 

OK. We have a great panel. Let me begin by introducing Lauren 

Thompson Starks, who serves as Senior Policy Advisor at the U.S. 

Department of Education in the Office of the Under Secretary. 

While at the Department, she has worked on a range of issues 

in higher education including interagency efforts to support career 

readiness for veterans and service members, and has worked with 

the V.A. to help redesign the Transition Assistance Program. 

Ms. Starks, welcome, and thanks for being here. 

5 

STATEMENT OF LAUREN THOMPSON STARKS, SENIOR POLICY 

ADVISOR, OFFICE OF THE UNDER SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, WASHINGTON, DC 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. Senator Sanders, Burr, and members of 

the committee. 

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this roundtable. 

I am pleased to share how the U.S. Department of Education, 

working together with our partner agencies, is contributing to efforts that support the postsecondary success of service members, 

veterans, and their families. 

I would like to focus my remarks on the Department of Education’s initiatives designed to increase access to quality and affordable educational institutions, remove barriers to degree completion, 

and foster practices that strengthen campus cultures for student, 

veteran, and service members’ success. 

Following the President’s August 2011 call to action for a comprehensive Federal approach to supporting a career-ready military, 

we have collaborated with the Departments of Defense, Veterans 

Affairs, Labor and other agencies on a redesign of the Transition 

Goals Plans Success program. 

Transition GPS is strengthening and expanding the information, 

counseling, and support available to transitioning service members. 

The Department of Education is providing expertise in areas such 

as postsecondary access, affordability, Federal financial aid, and 

adult learning strategies. We have contributed to the development 

and evaluation of modules on accessing higher education, and the 

career and technical training modules, and we have also continued 

to advise on program direction and assessments. 

Our core efforts also include providing our agency partners with 

transparency tools and resources to help students and families garner information about postsecondary access and costs, identify programs that meet their individual needs, and select among quality 

institutions and available Federal student aid options. 

Interagency coordination is not only helping to bridge the gap between military service and educational opportunities, but it is also 

helping to remove barriers to degree completion once students are 

enrolled. 

In August 2013, the Departments of Defense, Education, and 

Veterans Affairs formed the Academic Credentialing Task Force. 

The Task Force is dedicated to increasing awareness of promising 

practices and policies that promote awarding academic credit at 

postsecondary institutions for prior military training and experience. 

It is also facilitating the ability of these institutions to understand how military training and experience is relevant to their programs of study. And through these efforts, is supporting degree 

completion and career readiness among our Nation’s veterans. 

The Department is also collaborating with our agency partners 

to support the implementation of the Principles of Excellence Executive Order No. 13607. These Principles are designed to ensure 

that service members, veterans, and their families are offered quality educational opportunities, and have the educational and financial information needed to make informed choices. 

6 

The Principles ask educational institutions to do more to ensure 

support services for service members and veterans, which ultimately help foster learning communities where all students can 

thrive. 

The Principles also signal the Administration’s commitment to 

strengthening accountability, and enforcement, and oversight within Federal education benefit programs. They are enhancing transparency to facilitate educational comparisons through tools like the 

Financial Aid Shopping Sheet and are also enabling mechanisms 

that empower students and families to get the support they need 

and deserve such as the new centralized student complaint system. 

As part of efforts to build on the Executive order, the Departments of Education and Veterans Affairs in conjunction with more 

than 100 education experts convened to review approaches that 

could be scaled and replicated to foster veterans’ success on campus. The result was the 8 Keys to Success, a voluntary effort to 

promote best practices with the goal of fostering postsecondary environments that are committed to veterans’ success, and to also ensure that veterans have access to the information they need to 

make decisions concerning their benefits. 

The 8 Key offer concrete steps postsecondary institutions can 

take to assist veterans and service members who are transitioning 

and assist them in completing their college degrees and obtaining 

career-ready skills. 

The strategies include a variety of steps including creating a culture of connectedness on campus, using uniform sets of data tools 

to collect and track information relating to veterans, and also collaborating with local communities and organizations. 

In closing, the Department of Education will continue working 

with our agency partners as we strengthen the ladders of opportunity for our veterans and service members to reach their educational and career goals. 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to highlight this information, and I look forward to today’s discussion with you and fellow roundtable participants. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Starks follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF LAUREN THOMPSON STARKS

Chairman Sanders, Ranking Member Burr, and members of the committee, thank 

you for the opportunity to participate in this roundtable. I am pleased to share how 

the U.S. Department of Education (ED), working together with our partner agencies, is contributing to efforts that support the postsecondary success of service 

members, veterans, and their families. 

I would like to focus my remarks on ED’s initiatives designed to increase access 

to quality and affordable educational institutions, remove barriers to degree completion, and foster practices that strengthen campus cultures for student veteran and 

service member success. 

FEDERAL INTERAGENCY COLLABORATION AND TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO IMPROVE ACCESS TO QUALITY AND AFFORDABLE EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, AND STREAMLINE

DEGREE COMPLETION

Following the President’s August 2011 call to action for a comprehensive Federal 

approach to supporting a career-ready military, we have collaborated with the Departments of Defense, Veterans Affairs, Labor, and other agencies on a redesign of 

the ‘‘Transition Goals, Plans, Success’’ (Transition GPS) program, which strengthens 

and expands information, counseling, and support available to transitioning service 

members. 

7 

ED is providing expertise in areas such as postsecondary access, affordability, 

Federal financial aid, and adult learning strategies. We have contributed to the development and evaluation of modules on accessing higher education and career and 

technical training, and have continued to advise on program direction and assessments. 

Our core efforts also include providing our agency partners with transparency 

tools and resources to help students and families garner information about postsecondary access and costs, identify programs that meet their individual needs, and select among quality institutions and available Federal student aid options. 

Interagency coordination is not only helping to bridge the gap between military 

service and educational opportunities, but it is also helping to remove barriers to 

degree completion once students are enrolled. 

In August 2013, the Departments of Defense, Education, and Veterans Affairs 

formed the Academic Credentialing Task Force. The Task Force is dedicated to increasing awareness of promising practices and policies that promote awarding academic credit at postsecondary institutions for prior military training and experience, 

facilitating the ability of these institutions to understand how prior military training and experience is relevant to their programs of study, and supporting degree 

completion and career-readiness among our Nation’s veterans. 

SUPPORTING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE ‘‘PRINCIPLES OF EXCELLENCE’’ 

EXECUTIVE ORDER

Executive Order 13607, ‘‘Establishing Principles of Excellence for Educational Institutions Serving Service Members, Veterans, Spouses, and Other Family Members,’’ (Principles) offers principles designed to ensure that service members, veterans, and their families are offered quality educational opportunities and have the 

educational and financial information needed to make informed decisions. The Principles ask educational institutions to do more to ensure support services for service 

members and veterans, which ultimately helps foster learning communities where 

all students can thrive. 

The Principles signal the importance, to student consumers, families, and institutions, of the Administration’s commitment to strengthening accountability, enforcement, and oversight within Federal education benefit programs. They are enhancing 

transparency to facilitate educational comparisons, through tools like the Financial 

Aid Shopping Sheet, and are enabling mechanisms that empower students and families to get the support they need and deserve in accessing education benefits 

through the new centralized student complaint system. 

PROMOTING BEST PRACTICES FOR VETERAN STUDENT SUCCESS

As part of efforts to build on E.O. 13607, the Departments of Education and Veterans Affairs, in conjunction with more than 100 education experts, convened to review approaches that could be scaled and replicated to foster veterans’ success on 

campus. The result was the ‘‘8 Keys to Success’’—a voluntary effort to promote best 

practices with the goal of fostering postsecondary environments that are committed 

to veterans’ success and to ensure that veterans have access to the information they 

need to make informed decisions concerning their Federal educational benefits. 

The ‘‘8 Keys’’ offer concrete steps postsecondary institutions can take in order to 

assist veterans and service members in transitioning to postsecondary education, 

completing their college degrees, and obtaining career-ready skills. The strategies 

include creating a culture of connectedness on campus, coordinating and centralizing campus efforts for all veterans, collaborating with local communities and organizations to align services and supports for veterans, implementing an early alert 

system, utilizing a uniform set of data tools to collect and track information relating 

to veteran students (i.e., retention and degree completion), and developing systems 

to ensure sustainability of effective practices. 

ED will continue working with our agency partners as we strengthen ladders of 

opportunity for our veterans and service members to reach their educational and career goals. Thank you for the opportunity to highlight this information about key 

Department initiatives, and I look forward to today’s conversation with you and fellow roundtable participants. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you very much, Ms. Starks. 

Dr. Thomas Langdon serves as director of State Liaison and Educational Opportunity in the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel Readiness. In this role, he oversees the Department of Defense’s Tuition Assistance Program, the TAP program, 

8 

which allows nearly 280,000 service members to attend college 

courses at little or no cost. 

Dr. Langdon, thanks for being here. 

STATEMENT OF THOMAS L. LANGDON, DIRECTOR, STATE LIAISON AND EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY, UNDER SECRETARY 

OF DEFENSE, PERSONNEL, AND READINESS, OFFICE OF THE 

DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR MILITARY, 

COMMUNITY, AND FAMILY POLICY, ALEXANDRIA, VA 

Mr. LANGDON. Chairman Sanders, Senator Burr, and distinguished members of the HELP committee. 

It is an honor to be able to contribute to today’s discussion on 

the Department of Defense’s voluntary education program. My remarks will highlight several ways the DOD provides oversight to 

facilitate service member education success. First, just a little 

about me so you may better understand my perspective. 

I enlisted in the Air Force in March 1977 as a military police officer. I spent nearly 29 years on active duty and I was heavily involved with education, mine and others. Without military tuition 

assistance and caring and competent counsel, meeting my educational goals would have been difficult at best. It is no exaggeration to say without the DOD voluntary education program I would 

not be sitting before you today. 

Over the past year, DOD has enhanced its programs and services 

to ensure that service members have access to education opportunities throughout their military careers. Education helps grow leaders who will sustain our force readiness and continue to make valuable contributions in the support of our Nation. 

For many, the decision to go to school is a complex one and proper oversight by DOD and the services, education counseling, and 

access to important information allows the service member to make 

informed choices. DOD’s programs attract a large percentage of the 

eligible military population because they are designed to meet the 

unique needs of the off-duty service member. 

Each year, approximately one-third of our service members enroll 

in postsecondary coursework. Colleges and universities, through an 

extensive network, deliver classroom instruction at hundreds of 

military installations around the world and online to an everincreasing percentage of our service members. During 2013, over 

277,000 service members took more than 827,000 courses and 

earned over 55,000 degrees and certificates. 

Participation in DOD-supported voluntary education requires a 

service member to visit an education center, either in-person or online, through their services education portal. There are approximately 200 DOD education sites worldwide. 

At these centers, professional education counselors brief service 

members on their education options, provide assistance and develop an education plan, recommend tailored courses of study to 

meet their education goals, and provide information on financing to 

include DOD tuition assistance, grants, loans, or other available 

funding options. 

Over the past year, the Department’s priority has been implementing the requirements of the Executive Order 13607, establishing principles of excellence. These efforts are part of a robust 

9 

interagency collaboration between the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the Federal Trade Commission, the Departments of 

Defense, Education, Veterans Affairs, and Justice. 

The initiatives include enhancements to the DOD Voluntary 

Education Partnership Memorandum of Understanding that just 

was issued on the 15th of May; the postsecondary education complaint system and the development of the postsecondary education 

outcome measures. In addition, DOD has participated in interagency Military Credentialing and Licensing Task Force which is 

dedicated to identifying, supporting, and sharing strategies for institutions of higher education. One of the major efforts is for a better understanding of the Joint Services Transcript process. 

Service members rely on DOD voluntary education programs to 

help them attain their personal and professional goals, and it is 

made possible because DOD and the entire Federal Government 

recognize the high value of education programs supporting military 

advancement and the successful transition of service members to 

civilian workforce. 

The Department remains committed to effectively delivering voluntary education programs that meet the changing needs of our 

service members. 

I thank you for the opportunity to be here today, and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Langdon follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THOMAS L. LANGDON

Chairman Sanders, Ranking Member Burr, and distinguished members of the 

HELP committee, it is an honor to be able to contribute to today’s discussion on the 

Department of Defense’s (DoD) Voluntary Education Program. I will highlight the 

Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between DoD and individual institutions of 

higher learning and the new interagency Postsecondary Education Complaint system. 

The Department’s Voluntary Education Program provides valuable learning opportunities for servicemembers, contributing to enhanced readiness of our forces. 

Education helps our servicemembers be better Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines. Through education and experience, using tuition assistance (TA), we grow 

leaders, who will sustain our force readiness and continue to make valuable contributions in support of our Nation. Allow me to share the profile of typical TA 

users. 

• They work full-time and are part-time students; • They take an average of three courses per year and less than 1 percent ever reach the $4,500 annual ceiling; • The majority complete their education after leaving the military; • They attend multiple institutions and take about 7 years to earn an Associates 

Degree; • They do not usually graduate from the school where they took their first course; • They blend how they attend school between traditional classroom and online (79 

percent take some online courses); • They do not immediately seek employment upon earning their degree; and • They have breaks in their education due to circumstances such as deployments 

and transfer of duty station. 

For many, the decision to go to school is a complicated one and proper oversight 

by DoD and the Services, education counseling, and access to important information 

allows servicemembers to make informed choices. DoD programs are designed to 

meet the unique needs of the military off-duty student and, therefore, attract a large 

percentage of the eligible military population. 

Approximately one-third of our servicemembers enroll in post-secondary courses 

leading to undergraduate and graduate degrees or certificates each year. Colleges 

and universities, through an extensive network, deliver classroom instruction at 

hundreds of military installations around the world and on-line, to an ever-increasing percentage of our servicemember students. Additionally, servicemembers can 

10 

also earn college credits for learning that takes place outside the traditional classroom through College Level Examination Program (CLEP) testing and assessment 

of their military training. 

DoD has increased its assistance over the last year through its Voluntary Education programs and services, ensuring that opportunities for learning continue to 

exist for servicemembers throughout their military careers and preparing them for 

lifelong learning after they leave the military. 

OVERSIGHT OF MILITARY TA—FACILITATING SERVICE MEMBER SUCCESS

Participation in DoD-supported Voluntary Education requires servicemembers to 

visit an education center, either in person or on-line through their Service education 

portal. There are approximately 200 DoD education sites worldwide, including contingency areas in Afghanistan. At these centers, professional education counselors 

present servicemembers with an extensive menu of options, provide details about 

specific programs, recommend tailored courses of study that meet servicemembers’ 

goals, and provide information on education financing, including information on the 

TA program, grants, loans and other available funding options. Prior to using military TA, servicemembers must establish an education goal and an education plan. 

servicemembers, through their Service’s education portal, request TA for a course(s) 

outlined in their approved education plan, and an education counselor reviews the 

servicemembers’ education record and education plan prior to granting approval. 

Even with the financial support DoD provides, nearly all servicemembers, and especially those taking graduate level courses, incur out-of-pocket expenses. This gives 

each student a financial stake in their success. Also, servicemembers failing to complete or receiving an ‘F’ in a course must reimburse DoD for the TA received for 

the course, and servicemembers’ failing to maintain a 2.0 undergraduate or 3.0 

graduate grade point average (GPA), must pay for all courses until they raise their 

GPA sufficiently. 

OVERSIGHT OF MILITARY TA—ENSURING QUALITY EDUCATION PROGRAMS

Over the last year, the Department’s priority was to finalize implementation of 

our efforts consistent with Executive Order 13607: Establishing Principles of Excellence for Educational Institutions Serving Service Members, Veterans, Spouses and 

other Family Members. This includes multiple initiatives, such as the launch of a 

centralized online reporting system, enhancements to the DoD Voluntary Education 

Partnership Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), and development of postsecondary education outcome measures. All of these efforts are part of a robust interagency collaboration among DoD and the Departments of Education, Veterans Affairs, and Justice, along with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the 

Federal Trade Commission. These agencies are working together to enable military 

students and their families to make good educational choices using comprehensive 

information about the available programs and institutions that offer them. 

The quality of education provided to our servicemembers is essential to the Department, and underpinning this effort is DoD’s requirement that all post-secondary 

institutions participating in the TA program, whether they are physically located on 

our installations or elsewhere, be accredited by an accrediting body recognized by 

the U.S. Department of Education. Currently, over 3,200 institutions with more 

than 4,400 sub-campuses, have signed the DoD MOU. The new MOU was published 

in the Federal Register on May 15, 2014, as part of Change 2 to Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1322.25, and it requires all participating institutions to adhere to the Principles of Excellence as listed in Executive Order 13607: 

• Provides students with an education plan; • Informs students of the availability and eligibility of Federal financial aid before arranging private student loans; • Ensures new course or program offerings are approved by the institution’s accrediting agency before student enrollment; • Allows servicemembers to be re-admitted to a program if they are temporarily 

unable to attend class or have to suspend their studies due to military requirements; • Provides a refund policy for military students consistent with the refund policy 

for students using Department of Education Federal student aid (Title IV); and • Designates a point of contact for academic and financial advising. 

DoD is also working on other education initiatives. The interagency effort to identify postsecondary education outcome measures will provide information on available educational programs to support informed decisionmaking about educational 

choices, especially as they relate to veterans and servicemembers. The Departments 

of Defense, Education, and Veterans Affairs have worked together to propose a set 

11 

of outcome measures to capture important information on students’ experiences during school, upon completion of a degree or certificate, and post-graduation, using existing administrative data. 

DoD also participates in the interagency Military Credentialing and Licensing 

Task Force. The President established this forum to identify opportunities for 

servicemembers to earn civilian occupational credentials and licenses without the 

need for additional training. The Interagency Academic Credentialing Workgroup is 

dedicated to identifying, supporting, and sharing strategies for institutions of higher 

education to use when evaluating military training and experience in order to award 

appropriate amounts of academic credit for the skills and knowledge 

servicemembers gain through their service. For example, we have developed multiple webinars for the education community to help them better understand the 

Joint Service Transcript (JST) and the American Education Council (ACE) evaluation process. 

The JST provides documentary evidence to colleges and universities of the professional military education, training, and occupation experiences of servicemembers 

and veterans. JST is an official transcript tool that validates and documents those 

courses and occupations for servicemembers and veterans. From November 1, 2014 

through April 7, 2014, 4,873 transcripts were requested and sent to colleges and 

universities. 

ACE’s Military Evaluations program has reviewed and made college credit recommendations for thousands of military courses since the early 1940s and, in 1974, 

began the evaluation of military occupational specialties. More than 2,200 higher 

education institutions recognize the ACE course credit recommendations for granting credit to their military students. The webinar sessions clarify the review process 

and the quality measures that are used in determining credit recommendations and 

increase the awareness, use, and benefit of the JST. 

The explanation of both the ACE evaluations and JST will be included in the updated Transition GPS Accessing Higher Education curriculum, which will communicate the transfer of academic credit and military training to transitioning 

servicemembers. The goal was to update portions of the Education part of the Transition Assistance Program to better educate transitioning servicemembers on the 

proper award of academic credit. While some postsecondary institutions have active 

policies in place to award credit, the ultimate goal of the workgroup is expanding 

the number of institutions with effective military credit policies. 

Finally, the Defense State Liaison activities have been integral to facilitating 

change at the State level. As of May 15, 2014, 45 States have passed legislation or 

an Executive order requiring their educational institutions to evaluate military 

training and experience toward the award of academic credit. In addition, 31 States 

have enacted legislation regarding in-State tuition impacting newly separating 

servicemembers. 

DOD OVERSIGHT OF MILITARY TA—PREVENTING PREDATORY PRACTICES

DoD has strengthened its policies regarding on-installation access to our 

servicemembers. Institutions’ access to military installations is allowed only in order 

to provide education, guidance, and training opportunities, and to participate in 

education fairs. Marketing firms or companies that own and operate higher learning 

institutions do not have access. Institutions must meet the following requirements: 

• Have a signed MOU with DoD; 

• Be chartered or licensed by the State government in which the services will be 

rendered; 

• Be State-approved for the use of veteran’s education benefits; 

• Participate in title IV programs (eligible and participating under Department 

of Education rules, students are eligible for Federal support); 

• Be accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the U.S. Department of Education; and 

• Have an on-base student population of at least 20 military students. 

On January 30, 2014, DoD along with agency partners—Veterans Affairs, Education, Justice, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the Federal Trade 

Commission—launched the new Postsecondary Education Complaint System 

(PECS). The online reporting system, part of the Executive order on Principles of 

Excellence, is intended to help ensure that students are equipped with comprehensive information to make school and program choices that meet their educational 

goals. It is designed to empower military students and their families to report negative experiences with educational institutions and provide the Federal Government 

the information it needs to identify and address unfair, deceptive and misleading 

practices. 

12 

The initial reaction to the PECS has been overwhelmingly positive. Within 24 

hours of launch, the PECS received over 1,740 unique web page views and 37 complaints. As of May 15, 2014, DoD has processed 146 complaints. DoD is committed 

to working with each educational institution and student to reach a resolution that 

satisfies both parties. Over 60 percent of the complaints are regarding DoD or institutional processes or policies as opposed to substantiated complaints against a 

school such as deceptive recruiting and marketing practices. The complaint records 

and their resolutions are contained within a centralized repository, the Consumer 

Sentinel Network, making the information accessible by the Departments of Veterans Affairs, Defense, and Education, all of whom review schools for compliance 

and program eligibility, as well as the law enforcement agencies that would prosecute any illegal practices. The inter-agency team is also engaged in establishing 

servicemember and veteran outcome measures directed by Executive Order 13607 

that will assist in ensuring continued quality at both the program and institution 

level. These measures will attempt to determine performance through metrics such 

as retention rates, persistence rates, and time-to-degree (or credential) completion. 

CONCLUSION

servicemembers rely on the DoD Voluntary Education Program to help them become better Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and citizens. During fiscal year (FY) 

2013, approximately $540,400,000 taxpayer dollars supported 277,800 

servicemembers who took 827,100 courses and were awarded 55,700 degrees/certificates. This was possible because DoD and the entire Federal Government are unified when it comes to placing a high value on educational programs that support 

the professional and personal development and the successful transition of 

servicemembers to the civilian workforce. It is an honor and a privilege to work 

among a team of professionals dedicated to providing our servicemembers and their 

families with high-quality educational opportunities in pursuit of their personal and 

professional goals. The Department of Defense remains committed to effectively delivering voluntary education programs that meet the changing needs of the military. 

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. 

Senator SANDERS. Dr. Langdon, thanks very much. 

William Hubbard is the vice president of External Affairs for the 

Student Veterans of America. Mr. Hubbard joined the Marine 

Corps at age 17 and continues to serve with the 4th Marine Logistics Group as a drilling reservist out of Joint Base AnacostiaBolling. He is a graduate of American University where he studied 

international relations. 

Mr. Hubbard, thanks very much for being here. 

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM HUBBARD, VICE PRESIDENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS, STUDENT VETERANS OF AMERICA, WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. HUBBARD. Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and esteemed colleagues. 

Thank you for having Student Veterans of America here today to 

share our thoughts on examining access and supports for service 

members and veterans in higher education. As the premiere advocate for student veterans in higher education, it is our privilege to 

share our on-the-ground perspective with you today. 

In 2008, veterans in colleges and universities across the Nation 

came together to form SVA, using a network of peer to peer relationships and determined to achieve beyond expectations, these 

veterans applied years of hard learned lessons in the service to the 

classroom, and they succeeded. 

To begin, we believe it is important to outline how we define success for student veterans. Success is when a student veteran makes 

a well-informed educational decision, achieves personal academic 

goals without incurring student loan debt, and secures gainful employment that propels them forward in their career aspirations. 

13 

First, consolidation of information on how to make the most of 

the G.I. bill benefit is critical. This information could potentially 

help veterans avoid wasting months of G.I. bill benefits which may 

lead to veterans taking out unnecessary loans. The V.A.’s G.I. bill 

Comparison Tool is a good example of the kind of work we see as 

necessary. 

Second, as veterans graduate across the country, we believe that 

their debt burden will ultimately be the single largest inhibiting 

factor to long-term success. As a contributing factor to this debt, we 

remain concerned that some technical and career colleges claim to 

offer credentials and certifications, but students are not able to 

complete specific exams due to a lack of proper accreditation leading to the loss of valuable benefits and years of study. 

There are different pieces to the puzzle that we must identify for 

the student veteran to fully achieve their goals; institutions, individuals, and communities. We refer to these as the three pillars. 

When these are strong, student veteran achievement is high. These 

pillars set veterans up for success in the academic setting and after 

graduation. 

With programs like the Department of Veterans Affairs, that success on campus and support from postsecondary institutions, veterans are operating in environments where they are prone to excel. 

With the right tools and resources, SVA sees no limit to what student veterans can achieve in higher education and beyond. 

When empowered with environmental factors for success, the investment that America has made in the G.I. bill and its veterans 

becomes an even clearer asset to the economy. By increasing access 

to higher education and removing barriers to degree attainment, 

we can set up our veterans for long-term success. 

We thank Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and our present colleagues for your time, attention, and devotion to the cause of veterans in higher education. 

As always, we welcome your feedback and questions on this important topic. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Hubbard follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF WILLIAM HUBBARD

Senator Sanders, Senator Burr and esteemed members of the HELP Committee: 

Thank you for inviting Student Veterans of America (SVA) to submit our thoughts 

on ‘‘Examining Access and Supports for Servicemembers and Veterans in Higher 

Education.’’ As the premier advocate for student veterans in higher education, it is 

our privilege to share our on-the-ground perspective with you today. 

In 2008, veterans in colleges and universities across the Nation came together to 

form SVA. Using a network of peer-to-peer relationships, and determined to achieve 

beyond expectations, these veterans applied years of hard-learned lessons in the 

service to the classroom, and they succeeded. 

SVA’s top priorities include improving access to higher education and scaling effective services that empower student veterans to graduate on time, with little-tono student debt, while preparing student veterans for fulfilling futures. We look forward to this important conversation and hope to share the perspective of student 

veterans in higher education with you today. 

A LOOK AT THE CURRENT LANDSCAPE

Setting the Definition of ‘‘Success’’ 

To begin, we believe it is important to outline how we define ‘‘success’’ for student 

veterans. Success is when a student veteran makes well-informed educational decisions, achieves personal academic goals without incurring student loan debt, and secures gainful employment that propels them forward in their career aspirations. 

14 

1 U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, ‘‘Earnings and unemployment 

rates by educational attainment’’, http://www.bls.gov/emp/eplchartl001.htm (Access May 2, 

2014) 

The Importance of Higher Education for Veterans 

As quintessential nontraditional students, student veterans face a myriad of challenges that most of their peers in the classroom do not; they are generally older, 

more likely to have families, and often have significant financial responsibilities not 

shared by most 18- to 22-year-olds. However, unlike other nontraditional students, 

many veterans deal with the added challenge of juggling academics with their transition to higher education. In some cases, temporary withdrawals from school to deploy or train are the norm for many National Guardsmen or Reservists, which often 

elongates their path to completion or it can put it on hold altogether. 

Regardless of the challenges, it is clear that a postsecondary degree or credential 

is critical for success in today’s global economy. Using data from the last fiscal year, 

the Bureau of Labor Statistics illustrated the importance of higher education, as 

seen in Figure 1. For those who achieved an associate’s degree, unemployment 

dropped to 5.4 percent and for those with a bachelor’s or greater, that drops even 

further to 4 percent and below.1

INCREASING ACCESS TO HIGHER EDUCATION

The Key Components of Consumer Awareness 

The decision to pursue a degree in higher education can be daunting for some, 

but recent developments like the Department of Veterans Affairs’ (VA) GI Bill Comparison Tool have made that process more approachable. We continue to work with 

the VA to refine this tool so future generations can access critical information to 

support their decisionmaking process. We believe this is a good first step, but this 

tool is not the complete solution. Further consolidation of information on how to 

make the most of the GI bill benefit is necessary. This information could potentially 

help veterans avoid wasting months of GI bill benefits, which may lead to veterans 

taking out unnecessary loans. 

As veterans graduate across the country, we believe that their debt burden will 

ultimately be the single largest inhibiting factor to long-term success. There is a 

common misconception that veterans who go to school on the GI bill have a ‘‘free 

ticket’’, but we know this is simply not true. 

As an earned benefit, not only is it not free, it may not always cover the full cost 

of an education. Some student veterans take longer to complete their degree, due 

to being nontraditional students. In such scenarios, student veterans likely take on 

additional loans to complete or risk withdrawing short of graduation. While many 

veterans may not have a clear understanding of how much their education benefits 

will impact their overall cost of attendance, others face abusive and misleading practices across sectors of education that can result in undue and unnecessary debt burdens. 


88091-1.eps
15 

2Student Veterans of America, ‘‘The Fight for In-State Tuition for Veterans’’, http:// 

www.studentveterans.org/what-we-do/in-state-tuition.html (Access May 2, 2014). 

We remain concerned that some technical and career colleges claim to offer credentials and certifications, but students are not able to complete specific exams due 

to a lack of proper accreditation, leading to the loss of valuable benefits and years 

of study. We applaud the bipartisan efforts of the dozens of State Attorneys General 

working to curb this practice among the worst offenders, and would like to work 

with this committee and the Congress to improve the laws preventing this despicable practice. 

We also find that being able to access a full range of financial data is critical for 

institutions to be able to effectively counsel their students on their financial status, 

as well as for the individual to have the highest level of consumer awareness. Greater awareness allows student veterans to make informed choices that are aligned 

with their personal career aspirations. 

A Continued Fight for In-State Tuition 

Many student veterans continue to be forced to pay out-of-State tuition costs, despite being ‘‘state-less’’ as a direct result of their military service. It is for this reason that the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Legion, and SVA continue to 

ardently fight for in-State tuition for all veterans at the State and Federal levels. 

Less than half of all States offer in-State tuition for veterans and we continue to 

press the importance of this issue as a top contributor to education debt.2 We call 

on this group of leaders to continue to work toward ending this unnecessary and 

unjust punishment for the transient lifestyle in which our military is called to serve. 

SUPPORTING STUDENT VETERAN ACHIEVEMENT

There are different pieces to the puzzle that must be identified for the student 

veteran to fully achieve their goals. We refer to these as the ‘‘Three Pillars’’ that 

contribute to student veteran success, and we encourage this group of leaders and 

other researchers to focus on them individually as well as collectively. 

• Pillar 1—Institutions: Institutional support for student veterans is an important 

aspect of maintaining a strong pipeline of successful veteran graduates. The ability 

of the college or university to efficiently process student veteran benefits, transfer 

credits, or assist in job placement, is of crucial importance to the success of veterans. Flaws at this level, as well as unwelcoming or distrustful academic or professional environments, continue to act as major barriers to the success of some student veterans. • Pillar 2—Individuals: Establishing an environment for the student veteran to 

fluidly interact with the institution and the community is a determining factor in 

whether or not they will achieve their goals. Those who do not feel welcome may 

not persist in their studies. • Pillar 3—Communities: An established network across various university offices, academic networks, and career services enables the student veteran to make 

the transition from the campus to a fulfilling career. This may start with the institution’s outreach to potential employers, but is ultimately the responsibility of all 

of us to ensure that employers understand the strengths of veterans in the workplace. 

When the Three Pillars—institutions, individuals, and communities—are strong, 

student veteran achievement is high. These pillars set veterans up to succeed in an 

academic setting and after graduation. With programs like the Department of Veterans Affairs’ ‘‘VetSuccess On Campus’’ (VSOC), and support from postsecondary institutions, veterans are operating in environments where they are prone to excel. 

OUR FINAL THOUGHTS

With the right tools and resources, SVA sees no limit to what student veterans 

can achieve in higher education and beyond. When empowered with environmental 

factors for success, the investment America has made in the GI bill and its veterans 

becomes an even clearer asset to our economy. By increasing access to higher education and removing barriers to degree-attainment, we can set our veterans up for 

long-term success. 

We thank Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and our present colleagues for your 

time, attention, and devotion to the cause of veterans in higher education. As always, we welcome your feedback and questions on this important topic. 

Senator SANDERS. Mr. Hubbard, thank you very much for your 

testimony. 

16 

David Carlson is the coordinator of Student Veteran Services at 

the University of Vermont. Originally from Burlington, VT, David 

served for 4 years in the U.S. Marine Corps as an infantry 

assaultman from 2004 to 2008. He deployed twice in support of operation Iraqi Freedom fighting in Fallujah, Iraq in 2005 and 

Ramadi, Iraq in 2006 where he was commended for his actions 

while under direct enemy fire. 

After completing his military service, David enrolled at the University of Vermont using the post–9/11 G.I. bill. David was a cofounder of the Student Veterans organization on UVM’s campus 

and later served as the Vermont state director for Student Veterans of America. 

Mr. Carlson, thanks very much for being with us. 

STATEMENT OF DAVID CARLSON, COORDINATOR OF STUDENT 

VETERAN SERVICES, UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT, BURLINGTON, VT 

Mr. CARLSON. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Senator Burr, members. 

Respectfully, the University of Vermont is a public research land 

grant university located in Burlington, VT. I am the coordinator of 

Student Veteran Services for UVM and as Senator Sanders said, 

I served in the United States Marine Corps where I deployed three 

times in 4 years, and then attended UVM on the post–9/11 G.I. bill. 

For me, UVM was a great place to transition from being an active duty Marine back into the civilian world. I learned to leverage 

and articulate the skills, leadership, and attitude that I gained in 

the Marines, and apply them in the workforce. 

My current position has two main roles, which allow me to be 

successful supporting veteran transitions. The first role is very 

basic. It is helping students understand the admission process at 

the University and how to access V.A. education benefits. That involves assisting with the application process, submitting accurate 

enrollment information, monitoring V.A. payments, and making 

sure that students understand their V.A. education benefits. 

To accomplish that, we have to understand V.A. and DoD systems, have associated norms and rules for accessing information 

and accomplishing tasks, and likewise, so do institutions of higher 

learning. 

Students navigating both V.A. and higher education systems 

must understand the differences between those disparate bureaucracies in order to be successful. 

This is the basic level and no further levels of support can be 

successful without that process taking place accurately and in a 

timely fashion. I am still learning and will continue working hard 

to learn how to quickly, accurately, and correctly certify student 

enrollment. V.A. technical support, liaison availability, and partnership are critical to the success of schools administering V.A. 

education benefits. 

My second role at UVM is implanting an all-inclusive student 

veteran support system, which focuses on educating students about 

what is available to them on campus and in the community. 

UVM is creating a system of support and encouragement for veterans throughout the entire higher education process from engageVerDate Nov 24 2008 16:47 Feb 23, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\22616.TXT DENISE
17 

ment with student veterans through the higher education process. 

From first contact with a prospective student all the way through 

successful academics, to graduation, and engagement with the career center. That support includes academic; financial aid; social, 

that is peer support through student veteran organization, a student-run club and member of Student Veterans of America; 

mentorship, for example, faculty, staff, and senior students; and 

personal wellness. 

When describing what I do, I think of Maslow’s hierarchy of 

needs. We need to make sure that students understand their benefits and that they are working before we can proceed to providing 

higher levels of support. It is important for me to note that I see 

both student and system barriers to accessing higher education for 

military veterans at UVM. Many veterans might be reticent to receive help, but as a veteran coordinator we have personal domain 

expertise, I use my experience to breakdown some of those barriers 

with knowledge, social management, and awareness. 

I work hard to build trust-based relationships with students, 

which gives me the ability to become a trusted advisor and build 

bridges through previous layers of distrust or misunderstanding 

with V.A. or UVM. 

The fact is that this is high stakes. This is an important issue 

which has the ability to influence people’s lives, student success or 

failure in their future are somewhat dependent on being successful 

in college. That is important to me. Student veteran success matters to me in a huge, personal way and I am so thankful and humble to have had access to a fantastic education benefit. 

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Carlson follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVID CARLSON

Good morning, the University of Vermont is a public research land-grant university located in Burlington, VT. My name is David Carlson and I am the coordinator 

of Student Veteran Services for UVM. I served in the U.S. Marine Corps, where I 

deployed three times in 4 years, and then attended UVM using the Post-9/11 GI bill. 

For me, UVM was a great place to transition from being an active duty marine back 

to the civilian world. I learned to leverage and articulate the skills, leadership, and 

attitude I gained in the marines, and apply them in the workforce. My current position has two main roles which allow me to be successful supporting veterans’ transitions. 

The first role is basic; it is helping students understand the admission 

process at the University and how to access to VA education benefits. That 

involves assisting with the application process, submitting accurate enrollment information, monitoring VA payments, and making sure that students understand 

their VA education benefits. To accomplish that, we have to understand that VA 

and DoD systems have associated norms and rules for accessing information and accomplishing tasks and, likewise, so do institutions of higher learning. Students’ 

navigating both VA and higher education systems must understand the differences 

between those two disparate bureaucracies in order to be successful. That is the 

basic level, and no further levels of support can be successful without that process 

taking place accurately and in a timely fashion. I am still learning, and will continue working hard to learn how to quickly, accurately and correctly certify student 

enrollment. VA technical support, liaison availability and partnership are critical to 

the success of schools administering VA education benefits. 

My second role at UVM is implementing an all-inclusive student veteran 

support system which focuses on educating students about what is available to them on campus and in the community. UVM is creating a system of 

support and encouragement for veterans through the entire higher education process, from first contact with a prospective student all the way through successful acaVerDate Nov 24 2008 16:47 Feb 23, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 S:\DOCS\22616.TXT DENISE
18 

demics, to graduation and engagement with the Career Center. That support includes academic, financial aid, social (i.e., peer support through the Student Veteran 

Organization, a student-run club and member of Student Veterans of America), 

mentorship (e.g., faculty, staff, senior students), and personal wellness. When describing what I do, I think of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. We need to make sure 

students understand their benefits, and that they are working, before we can proceed to providing higher levels of support. 

It is important for me to note, that I see both student and system barriers 

to accessing higher education for military veterans. Many veterans might be 

reticent to receive help but as a veteran coordinator with personal domain expertise, 

I use my experience to break down some of those barriers with knowledge, social 

management and awareness. I work hard to build trust-based relationships with 

students which gives me the ability to become a trusted advisor and build bridges 

through previous layers of distrust or misunderstanding with VA or UVM. 

The fact is that this is high stakes. This is an important issue which has the 

ability to influence people’s lives; students’ success or failure, and their future, are 

somewhat dependent on being successful in college. That’s important to me. Student 

veteran success matters to me in a huge personal way and I’m so thankful, and 

humble to have had access to a fantastic education benefit. 

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I look forward to your questions. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you, very much, Mr. Carlson. 

Senator Burr, did you want to introduce Ms. Rhinehardt? 

Senator BURR. Mr. Chairman, I will never pass on the opportunity to introduce not only a person who I think is intricately involved in the issue that we are here to discuss, and that is veterans’ education and her role at the University of North Carolina 

System. She was somebody whom I had the opportunity to have on 

my staff for a period of time, who understands the side of the dais 

that we are on, and who understands what it is like to sit behind 

those of us who get all the accolades for what we do, and never get 

recognized for the tremendous work that our staff does at the committee and at the personal level. 

Kimrey Rhinehardt, one, is passionate about the job she does. 

She understands in great depth the people that are impacted by 

the legislation that we write. And she is passionate about making 

sure that, at the end of the day, her influence is for us to do the 

right thing. 

She has been instrumental in the academic outreach by the University of North Carolina to active duty DoD, to our bases in North 

Carolina, to the continuing education of our active duty forces. She 

is also instrumental in trying to understand and continuing to refine the difficulties of integration of a veteran into today’s college 

life. And, someone whom I think has a unique perspective on what 

those individuals go through and what institutions need to do to 

accommodate a host of different needs that present themselves 

with the decisions that veterans come with. 

Let me also say, Mr. Chairman, as you know, she has been an 

outspoken advocate for yours and my effort to require States to 

offer in-State tuition which, I personally believe, is the right thing 

for us to do as a Nation, both from a policy standpoint and from 

a fiduciary standpoint. 

Kimrey, welcome back. 

19 

STATEMENT OF KIMREY RHINEHARDT, VICE PRESIDENT OF 

FEDERAL RELATIONS, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA, 

CHAPEL HILL, NC 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Thank you, Senator Burr, Mr. Chairman, I certainly hope that my mother and husband are watching right now. 

Thank you for inviting me to this important conversation. I 

would like to point out that my colleague from Vermont was a Marine assigned to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. And I believe my 

fellow panelists have done an outstanding job of articulating all of 

the same challenges that UNC students face. So I am going to get 

right to the point, and maybe take a different approach. 

I work for the people of North Carolina. My employer, the University of North Carolina System is a large, 16-campus university 

system with 220,000 students, 55,000 faculty and staff. Approximately 8,000 of our students use some form of V.A. benefit to pay 

for their education. As Senator Burr has already articulated, North 

Carolina is a big military State and we are very proud of this. 

While 99.5 percent of us sleep quite comfortably in our beds at 

night, our friends and neighbors in North Carolina in uniform are 

protecting and promoting our freedom in places where we do not 

vacation. 

These men and women and their families have endured an unprecedented operational tempo and I am sure that we can all agree, 

they have more than earned the right to pursue a high quality and 

affordable higher education. 

I have worked with North Carolina’s military since 2009 and 

here is what I have learned from them. They are smart. They are 

motivated. They find the university to be overwhelming. They want 

us to tell them how to navigate campus, preferably on one piece of 

paper without footnotes, caveats, and unnecessary runarounds. 

They do not want to ask for help. They have experience that cannot 

be replicated in the classroom setting. They do not want anything 

handed to them; they want to earn it. 

They do not understand why they have to take four semesters of 

Spanish when they are fluent in Dari and have used their language 

skill to negotiate a real outcome in Afghanistan. They like having 

other military affiliated students in their classes. They will not 

hesitate to challenge a professor’s theory. 

Many do not want to talk about their military life. They want to 

find other people like them on campus. They do not have time to 

waste on climbing walls. They already did that. They pursue their 

degree efficiently. 

Here is what professors and other students tell me they have 

learned from military students. 

‘‘Wow. They are really smart. They do their homework, turn 

it in on time, and do not make excuses. They add a valuable 

dimension to classroom discussion. They make everyone 

around them smarter just by being there. They want to learn. 

We do not know what we do not know about them. I should 

not have asked them what it was like over there. We assume 

they all have PTSD, but they do not. They want more militaryaffiliated students in their classes and veterans that look just 

like you and me.’’ 

20 

1 UNC: Fall 2013 data. 

Administrators ask the UNC System office, ‘‘Tell us how to do 

this right. We want to get it right.’’ So how does a university become a place of transition for veterans? Intentionally. We have 

come together as a university community to recalibrate normal. 

This new normal may take work, but it is worth it. 

The education that the service member needs is mission-critical 

because the most important weapon that he or she has is not an 

assault rifle, but their mind. And when the service member makes 

the transition to veteran in civilian society, we want that veteran 

to remain in North Carolina for the long term. We want veterans 

to receive in-State tuition in the State of North Carolina. We want 

Medal of Honor awardees like Kyle White to receive in-State tuition in the State of North Carolina. The University can, and should 

be a natural place of transition for the veteran. They have earned 

their benefit. 

The University of North Carolina System commits itself to 

partnering with the military because national security should be a 

priority for all of us, not just the less than 1⁄2 of 1 percent of us 

that put the uniform on. We could all do something to contribute. 

The faculty, staff, and students of the University of North Carolina 

stand ready to do our part. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This concludes my testimony. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Rhinehardt follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF KIMREY RHINEHARDT

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to join 

you today. Thank you for your leadership. 

The University of North Carolina system is comprised of 16 university campuses. 

We have 220,000 students and approximately 55,000 faculty and staff across the 

State of North Carolina. Nearly 8,0001 of our students use VA educational benefits 

to pay for some or all of their post-secondary education. 

North Carolina is a big military State with 800,000 veterans, six major military 

installations with the third largest active military force in the country. This activeduty force is comprised of 120,000 personnel, 12,000 members of the National Guard 

and their nearly 145,000 spouses and children. 

As the State’s public university, we are working hard to enroll, educate and graduate as many academically prepared service members, veterans and family members as possible. Our motivation is simple and our actions are intentional: the success of student veterans and their families at UNC institutions is linked to the success of the University and our State’s future. 

In October 2010, the University of North Carolina system convened a working 

group known as ‘‘UNC SERVES (UNC Systemwide Evaluation and Recommendation for Veterans Education and Services), to evaluate and recommend specific action steps for improving how the University system and its individual institutions 

serve veterans and their families. The UNC SERVES working group issued its report in April 2011. 

The University is making steady progress toward implementing UNC SERVES 

recommendations. Annually, we issue the ‘‘UNC SERVES Resource Guide’’ to highlight systemwide and campus progress with each of the action items. The UNC 

SERVES working group report and Resource Guides may be reviewed online at: 

http://www.northcarolina.edu/frc/uncserves/serves.html. 

CENTRALIZED INFORMATION SHARING AND ONE-STOP SHOPPING FOR VETERANS

Veterans are not typical students. Student veterans come to us from a highly 

structured, bureaucratic environment of the military and are often uneasy with the 

loosely structured, bureaucratic environment of the University. University admissions and enrollment processes can be complex. This is especially true for veterans. 

One of our top priorities is to centralize information sharing using a technologyVerDate Nov 24 2008 16:47 Feb 23, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6621 S:\DOCS\22616.TXT DENISE
21 

based platform to provide a virtual ‘‘one-stop-shop’’ for veterans. To access the University’s virtual one-stop-shop: http://www.uncserves.northcarolina.edu. Another technology-based resource in development is the North Carolina Military 

Educational Positioning System or ‘‘NCMEPS.’’ This Web site provides military-affiliated students with important resources to explore North Carolina’s higher education options: both public and private. To access NCMEPS: http://www.ncmileps 

.northcarolina.edu. 

DATA COLLECTION AND REPORTING

The University has established systemwide, uniform data collection procedures to 

ensure that we can identify and track the academic progress of service members, 

veterans, spouses, and dependent family members. 

UNC INSTITUTIONS ALIGN ACADEMIC PROGRAMS TO STUDENT NEEDS

UNC campuses have a legacy of working with military-affiliated students and the 

military installations in North Carolina. Representing all UNC institutions, the 

UNC system office has academic advisors at Fort Bragg, aboard Camp Lejeune and 

at Coast Guard Air Station Elizabeth City. 

The University has specialized programs of interest to veterans and active duty 

military service members. Veterans are attracted to these programs because their 

military learning and experiences align with the academic program and prepare 

them for their desired career. And, many courses are structured to complement an 

adult student’s life. Many student veterans have family responsibilities, part-time 

or full-time employment and other obligations. 

CLOSING

The education that the service member needs is mission critical because the most 

important weapon that he or she has is not an assault rifle—but their mind. And, 

when the service member makes the transition to veteran in civilian society we 

want that veteran to remain in North Carolina for the long term. 

The University can and should be a natural place of transition for the veteran. 

They have earned their educational benefit. 

The University of North Carolina system commits itself to partnering with the 

military because national security should be a priority for all of us—not just for the 

less than half of 1 percent of us that serve in the armed forces. We can all do something to contribute. The faculty, staff and students of the University of North Carolina stand ready to do our part. 

Thank you, Mister Chairman. This concludes my testimony. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you all very much for your important 

testimony on a very important issue. 

We are all, as Ms. Rhinehardt indicated, deeply appreciative and 

knowledgeable about the sacrifices made by so many. And our job, 

and what this hearing is about, is to make sure that when people 

come back, they get the best education that they possibly can. And 

what we are here to discuss is what is going right and what is not 

going right, how do we improve it? 

Let me just start off with a very general question to Mr. Carlson, 

who is from my hometown. In a broad statement, Mr. Carlson, how 

is the G.I. bill working at the University of Vermont? What is positive about it, and what are some of the impediments and negatives 

that you see that veteran students are facing? 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Senator Sanders. 

The post–9/11 G.I. bill at the University of Vermont overall is 

working well and it worked well for me. 

Many of the positives are that according to lot pays for a student’s in-State tuition and fees, it provides them with a very decent 

housing allowance to survive on while they are pursuing their education. 

However, some of the negatives are that it does cover that inState tuition as we have discussed. The University of Vermont has 

recently increased from 35 to 45 undergraduate Yellow Ribbon 

22 

Scholarships, which represents a tremendous amount of matched 

dollars from UVM and from the V.A. to allow out-of-State students 

to choose to attend the University of Vermont, to make that good 

transition, to come to a place where the campus climate is very accepting of diversity, whether that diversity is military or any other 

culture. 

Some of the real challenges that are experienced are accurately 

and quickly reporting enrollment information from the University 

of Vermont, which is its own large bureaucracy to V.A., which is 

its own bureaucracy. The two do not speak the same language and 

so, I find myself in the middle translating and ultimately de-conflicting when something goes awry. That is what I have to say. 

Senator SANDERS. Let me ask Ms. Rhinehardt the same question. 

What is working well about the G.I. bill, and what are some of the 

impediments and problems that you see? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. What is working well is that we have 8,000 

students using a form of V.A. benefit on our campuses. And so for 

that, we thank the Federal Government and this Congress for extending that benefit. 

What is not working well is when the change was made to find 

savings associated with the G.I. bill a couple of years ago. Because 

of North Carolina’s unique circumstances in which we have a pretty significant differential between out-of-State tuition and in-State 

tuition, we were actually able to cover many out-of-State students 

using the highest in-State tuition under the old rules. When the 

rules changed, we had a lot of students who were admitted under 

one set of rules and then enrolled thinking, ‘‘This is my tuition,’’ 

and were handed a great big surprise. 

Since that time, we have been fighting, really with anyone that 

will listen, to try to get in-State tuition for these students in North 

Carolina. That is our biggest challenge. 

Senator SANDERS. These students are faced with a gap of several 

thousand dollars. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Oh, many more thousands. 

Senator SANDERS. What? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. I mean, probably close to $13,000–$14,000. 

Senator SANDERS. Over a period of years? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. A year. 

Senator SANDERS. A year? The gap is that high? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Yes, sir. And you know, our friends in the private institutions—I do not want them to lose anything—but they 

have a much more generous benefit. They receive up to $18,500 or 

something along those lines. And when you are in a State like 

North Carolina, where your tuition is extraordinarily low, it would 

be great if we could have the $18,500 cap. 

Senator SANDERS. OK. Other people. 

Mr. Hubbard, what is working well? What do you see? 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Senator. 

I would say more broadly, the positive side of things: access. Student veterans are able to access an education whereas previously, 

they would not have had that opportunity. 

Many individuals have commented to me repeatedly, 

‘‘I am the first generation student in my family. Had I not 

had the G.I. bill, I would not have been able to have gotten an 

23 

education. This has brought me to a different level of education. I have gotten a higher degree than I had before.’’ 

Which I think goes against the theory that individuals are using 

the G.I. bill to specifically get an Associate’s Degree or a lower certification. They are going on to pursue higher levels of education 

with their G.I. bill. 

On the side of things that could be improved, I think individuals 

are often left to make a decision between a 4-year degree and perhaps a degree that would take longer, something in a STEM field, 

for example, engineering, math, science, technology. Those degrees 

may take a longer period of study, and as a result, they are forced 

to make that decision, in many cases, when they are balancing 

their family and trying to figure out how to pay for that fifth year, 

they often pursue a different field. 

I think also my colleague, Mr. Carlson, pointed out a great example of processes. The processes need to be improved so that they 

are streamlined to allow for a student veteran to take their benefit 

and make the most of it. 

Senator SANDERS. OK. Thank you very much. 

Senator Burr. 

Senator BURR. Senator Sanders, let me share with my colleagues 

just a couple of things that Kimrey did not say. 

North Carolina’s subsidy to higher education is extremely high 

for in-State students. I think that is obvious. We consider one to 

be an in-State student after they have a 1-year residency in North 

Carolina. 

So to Kyle White, who is a Medal of Honor winner as of last 

week, who chose to go to school in North Carolina after he separated from the active duty, his first year was as an out-of-State 

student where he accumulated debt matched with his G.I. bill, but 

his second, third, and fourth year became an in-State student 

under today’s reimbursement. 

Our active duty forces that are stationed within North Carolina, 

their children receive in-State tuition on Day One. And we are 

going to do the right thing in North Carolina, but I think it is important for us to recognize the inequity that we created between 

public and private and it is magnified when you take a State like 

North Carolina that has a significant subsidy. 

Let me ask you, Mr. Carlson. What is the in-State/out-of-State 

tuition at your institution? 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Senator. 

The in-State/out-of-State tuition gap, in-State tuition is generally 

about 40 percent of the out-of-State tuition. 

Senator BURR. OK. Another high subsidy. 

Mr. CARLSON. It is significant. Yes, sir. 

Senator BURR. Mr. Hubbard, the Veterans Affairs committee, 

which Senator Sanders ranks, and I am the ranking member, has 

jurisdiction over many veterans education programs which, specifically under the Higher Education Act, we can change. It might be 

easy for the college going process for veterans and service members. 

What changes should we make, in your estimation, that would 

make it easier? 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you for the question, sir. 

24 

I believe often that there needs to be more communication, or 

needs to be more transparency. As student veterans come in, they 

need to have the right information to make the right decisions 

about their education benefits. 

If you are going to a university, for example, that is not accredited or might not allow you to have the certification at the end— 

that information in the end—you basically lose benefits. You lose 

a period of study. So that consumer information is very important. 

And then, having the communication with the school and the 

school have communication with the V.A. or DoD, as it were. I 

think that is very important. That entire process, that lifecycle, 

that education for veterans is very important. 

Senator BURR. Kimrey, what prompted the UNC System to embark on UNC SERVES and that initiative? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. The president at the time, Erskine Bowles, 

looked at me and said, ‘‘Ms. Rhinehardt, you are getting down to 

Fort Bragg and you are going to find out what is going on with 

them down there.’’ So I went down and I learned a whole lot about 

what I did not know, and immediately saw this incredible opportunity for our State. When you have special operations community 

as large as it is in this State. 

I spent 3 days this week embedded in a negotiation exercise with 

Green Berets, and there were students from other UNC campuses 

there. And I was like, ‘‘What better opportunity is there?’’ 

We began to understand what the opportunity was and then we 

brought together people from across the UNC System, faculty, 

staff, and students. We all got in a room and said, ‘‘What do we 

want to do about this? What do we want to change about the way 

we do business and the way we serve these students?’’ 

In very short order, which is not like a university, we issued a 

report that said, ‘‘These are the things we want to do.’’ That report 

did not sit on a shelf. We were very active. We monitor. We look 

at each of the best practices that, I will say, many of which came 

from the ACE Tool Kit, which is a very helpful tool for us. We 

learned what we did not know and now that we know, we can go 

do it. 

So I would say that is the thing that defines a university campus 

from being very active and aggressive in a campus that appears to 

not be doing something. It is not that they do not want to; they just 

do not know what to do. 

Senator BURR. What metrics does UNC use to gauge success? 

Kimrey Rhinehardt. We look at whether or not campuses have 

established central points of contact in key offices like financial aid 

office, the registrar’s office, making sure that all of that information is published in a one-stop shop format. It is virtual. It is online. And our office makes sure that it is up to date so the veterans 

do not have to hunt and peck all over campus to figure out, ‘‘Where 

do I go?’’ That is the first thing. 

The second thing is that, you know, ‘‘Is your campus developing 

programs that align with service member training and needs?’’ We 

have many programs that offer courses on Saturdays and Sundays, 

and then we will have follow on study throughout the semester. 

An adult student cannot go to class on Monday, Wednesday, and 

Friday at 11 a.m. generally. I mean, I certainly cannot. I have a 

25 

9-year-old who goes to school. I work full-time and it is not different than someone like me. 

So to me, this military community is a microcosm of the much 

larger challenge, which is, how do we serve all nontraditional students? 

Senator BURR. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you very much. 

Senator Baldwin. 

Senator BALDWIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

As the entire panel has experienced, veterans often need financial aid beyond their G.I. benefits. And the Student Veterans of 

America’s research has shown that many veterans continue their 

education beyond earning a certificate or undergraduate degree 

and need the support of aid provided under Title IV of the Higher 

Education Act. 

We know that as nontraditional students, veterans often must 

work, as well as attend to family and other obligations, as we just 

heard. 

However, working while in school can result in these veterans reducing or even eliminating their title IV aid because their income 

may exceed the Higher Education Act’s Income Protection Allowance. 

I have been working toward the introduction of legislation that 

will address this issue head-on by raising the Income Protection Allowance for all students, including veterans, whether they are 

working to support themselves or supporting a family. 

I am hoping that the panel can help articulate the need for financial support beyond the G.I. bill and address the unique financial needs of the working student veteran. And I am hoping that 

you can also speak to how legislation to raise the Income Protection 

Allowance would help veterans come out of school with less debt. 

Mr. Carlson and Mr. Hubbard, I wonder if you can kick off the 

discussion of this topic? 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thanks for the question, Senator. 

I believe you actually raise a very important point and that is 

nontraditional students in higher education. What we are finding 

is with our research, as you pointed out, over half veterans are 

doing well in higher education and we are seeing to raise that 

number. 

I think this points out something important, and that is, we have 

found a system, a process, a unique approach to supporting the 

nontraditional student in higher education. If we can apply that to 

other nontraditional students along with legislation like you point 

out, to raise the Income Protection Allowance, I think we can come 

onto a process that will enable nontraditional students to succeed. 

Research on nontraditional students is very old. At best estimates, 20 to 30 percent says that nontraditional students are graduating. Obviously, with student veterans in the upwards of 50-plus 

percent, that is much higher. 

If we can bring that gap together, I think we will have found a 

very significant breakthrough. 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you for the question, Senator. 

26 

I believe that when we think about nontraditional students, especially military veterans, rolling out essentially what is concierge 

service, a single point of contact, so that they can have all of the 

information that they need directly, up front and they do not have 

to go from office to office within the university and within the Department of Veterans Affairs to understand what their benefits are. 

And if and when they are going to have an outstanding balance 

that would not be paid by those V.A. benefits, it is important for 

them to have that information up front and have it be complete so 

that they can make an informed decision. 

Senator BALDWIN. Ms. Rhinehardt. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. I would like to point out, and laud the Student 

Veterans of America because of their work with the Million Records 

Project. What they did is they started to go deeper into understanding the analyses of who is doing what, how well are they 

doing. But what they did is they used data that actually reflects 

a much more accurate picture of who these students are. They 

worked with the Clearinghouse, the National Student Clearinghouse. 

I know that this Congress and the Department of Education are 

working closely to try to get IPEDS up to better reflecting transfer 

student needs and nontraditional students. But really, what SVA 

has done has really been the opening salvo for understanding who 

these students are, but using the most accurate date. 

Senator BALDWIN. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator SANDERS. Please. 

Senator BALDWIN. I trust we will have a second round of questioning, so I will let my colleagues go, but I will followup with the 

program you were talking about because I think there is some interesting discussion that we can have about that too. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you, Senator Baldwin. 

Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Last year, I visited Inver Hills Community College in Minnesota 

and I met with a group of veteran and military students who 

talked about how the training and skills that they had learned in 

the military do not easily transfer to college credits. 

One veteran told me that he did top secret communications work 

when he was deployed and yet, when he returned home, he could 

not transfer that training or knowledge into college credits in communications. 

This is for anyone: what can be done to support the veteran military students who have existing skills from military service or 

training, and are not able to turn those skills into college credits? 

Anyone. Just jump in. 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Senator. 

I think that is actually a critical point the Student Veterans of 

America is working very hard toward. The idea of credits and 

credentialing is something that has come up time and time again, 

as I am sure you are aware of as well. 

I think there is a double approach here. From the student veteran perspective, it is a matter of translating those skills so that 

the universities can understand where they do apply; so coming 

from that side. And then from the other side, for the actual instituVerDate Nov 24 2008 16:47 Feb 23, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\22616.TXT DENISE
27 

tion of higher learning, for them to accept those credits is often a 

difficult fight as well. If both of them can meet in the middle, I 

think that will be an opportunity for these student veterans in all 

States, to benefit from. 

A great example is if you, as you point out, have a communications background. You have done communications work for the 

military. Maybe you have done it for several years and you have 

proven that you have those skills. If the universities then point you 

to a Communications 101 class, that is a waste of your time. 

If you can go to a higher, or at least test out of some of those 

more basic courses, that will shorten your time to degree, which 

will then allow you to save those benefits for later education purposes. 

Mr. CARLSON. Senator, thank you for the question. 

I think a big step forward that was made in that regard is the 

Joint Services Transcripts. Previously, as a Marine, I went to the 

University of Vermont with a SMART Transcript, which was Navy 

and Marine Corps, and some of those courses that I had completed 

while I was in the military may or may not have transferred to 

UVM, depending on their content and length. 

But as I see students coming in now with a Joint Services Transcript, many more of those credits are able to come into the university. 

Senator FRANKEN. Ms. Rhinehardt. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. I am so glad you asked that question because 

the University of North Carolina is actually just beginning its intentional effort to divide the Military Articulation Agreement 

among all of our campuses, and we are turning, actually, to Minnesota’s model for how to do that. 

Minnesota is leading the way nationally in articulating military 

learning into academic credit. Thank you to the State of Minnesota 

for helping UNC figure out the way forward on this. 

Senator FRANKEN. We are getting there. How often are those 

kinds of skills that are learned during deployment and military 

service and military training are aligned with the skills gap that 

we have. We have higher unemployment among our veterans coming back and our young veterans especially. 

To what extent are those unbelievable skills that they have acquired while serving, do the higher education schools go and I am 

talking about 2-year community and technical colleges as well as 

the 4-year and say, ‘‘Wow. This aligns so well with these jobs that 

exist that people cannot fill.’’ 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Sir, I have a great answer for you. 

Senator FRANKEN. Good. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Sorry, I get excited. He told you I got excited. 

Senator FRANKEN. I know. That is good. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. UNC Chapel Hill School of Medicine, the chief 

of emergency medicine and the chair of the Jaycee Burn Center 

happen to have a military background, and they started working 

with the 18 Delta Combat Medics and their instructors down at 

Fort Bragg. And over the course of time, developed such a strong 

relationship that the combat medic instructors are actually coming 

up to Chapel Hill campus doing rotations embedded with all of the 

medical school faculty. It is actually going a step beyond that now, 

28 

because they now understand each other and understand the skills 

that they have. 

UNC Chapel Hill—they do not currently have a physician assistant program—but we have a high need for rural emergency medicine professionals. And many of these men and women would love 

to live in North Carolina. 

And so, UNC Chapel Hill is actually in the process of developing 

a P.A. program that factors in the combat medic experience so that 

they do not have to go all the way as another P.A. candidate would. 

That experience is factored in. They do not have to learn how to 

take a pulse on Day One. 

Senator FRANKEN. You are kind of suggesting that people who 

deployed in the military in the last 13 years somehow may be more 

expert on emergency medical service than they are given credit for. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Well, the chief of emergency medicine, if he 

were here, would tell you that he does probably three or four 

tracheotomies every couple of years. And the guys, the 18 Delta’s 

probably do over 400 or 500. 

Senator FRANKEN. OK. Thank you. I am out of time, but I would 

love to, Madam Chair, have a second round if I can. 

Senator BALDWIN. I think we will be able to accommodate that. 

Before I call on Senator Murphy, one of the distinctions between 

a roundtable and a formal hearing is that you, as witnesses, can 

react to one another’s answers, et cetera. And I do not think we 

went over how you should seek that recognition, if you are interested. But because of Ms. Rhinehardt’s deep background with the 

Senate, she already knew just where to put your nameplate and we 

will make sure to call on you. 

Senator Murphy. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR MURPHY

Senator MURPHY. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. 

We spend a lot of great time here talking about what happens 

when you are there at the college and how to best accommodate 

veterans. I wanted to spend my few minutes talking about how we 

help service members pick the right college. 

We are really proud of what we have done in Connecticut as all 

my colleagues are. We have tuition waivers for veterans to attend 

our public universities. We have private, nonprofit universities like 

the University of New Haven which goes so far as to actually raise 

private dollars in an emergency fund to cover the gap that sometimes exists before the G.I. benefits kick-in. 

But the reality is that 37 percent of post–9/11 G.I. bill benefits 

are not going to State universities or to private nonprofit universities; they are going to for-profit universities. And 50 percent of 

DoD tuition assistance—50 percent—is going to for-profit universities. Many of these universities do not have, as their primary motivating factor the education of veterans, but they have profit as 

their motivation. And we actually have an Executive order that the 

President released, No. 13607, in 2012 that would try to get our 

hands around this problem of often very troublesome targeting and 

marketing of these for-profit universities to veterans. 

Dr. Langdon, your statistics are cautionary in the sense that we 

are proud of how many veterans are getting to school, but the fact 

29 

that it is taking, on average, 7 years to get an Associate’s Degree. 

Some of that, clearly, is for legitimate reasons and nontraditional 

students take longer, but part of that is probably because there are 

a lot of veterans that are not getting the right information about 

what the best school is for them. 

So I wanted to ask this question, a broad one, to the panel and 

maybe start with Dr. Langdon and Ms. Thompson Starks. What 

could we be doing better to try to give veterans the information 

they need to pick the right choice, and should we not be worried 

about this huge transfer of benefits going to for-profit; which, as 

the committee’s own report shows, are not delivering the same outputs for students that UVM, and the UNC’s System, and the University of Connecticut System are? 

Mr. LANGDON. Sir, very good question, and on behalf of DoD, as 

we approach it when we look at military tuition assistance, the 

thing that I must bring forward is, of course, the presidential Executive order that you have mentioned. From that, the Department 

of Defense has updated, just released on the 15th of May the new 

Department of Defense Education Partnership Memorandum of 

Understanding, MOU. In that, we addressed a lot of the issues that 

you are referring to. 

For example, institutions providing education programs through 

DoD will provide meaningful information on financial attendance; 

will not use unfair and deceptive practices; implementation of rules 

to strengthen exiting procedures and access to installations, along 

those lines. 

What we also realize is that we now have a robust interagency 

information sharing. At the installation level, as it is fed down 

through the services, the service members are counseled and they 

are talked about what their goals are and what they want to try 

to achieve. 

And I submit to you this, a profile of a TA user, Tuition Assistance on active duty. They are a full-time worker, part-time student. 

As you say, they take an average of three courses per year and less 

than 1 percent ever reach their cap of that $4,500. The majority 

complete their education after leaving, and there are seven or eight 

more that go that way, to your point about 7 years. 

Within this new construct, they now must have an education 

plan. It must be through a university or school that signs an MOU 

that has to meet specific accreditation requirements, which is national and regional accreditation. They must adhere to all the principles of excellence that has been outlined in order to receive, first 

receive, the tuition assistance dollars. 

As we work through that now, the biggest changes are making 

sure that that service member has a vetted, approved plan, they 

stay on-plan, and it is something that they can translate. 

One final point, sir. An active duty member may go to a lot of 

universities. The online venue is very attractive because a lot of the 

flagship or larger schools—UNC, whomever—is a campus-based 

program. And as you know, a lot of our service members, if they 

spend any time, they are going to move several times. 

And so, they are taking coursework at universities that fit that 

schedule or that work life. But we have made huge strides in that 

matter. 

30 

Thank you, sir. 

Senator MURPHY. Ms. Thompson Starks. 

Ms. THOMPSON SPARKS. Thank you for an opportunity to respond. 

The Department of Education starts from a philosophy that in 

order to help students make good choices, we have to give them information and tools that enable them to make quality decisions. We 

are doing a number of things to provide important information 

with respect to cost comparisons across colleges, financial aid strategies that students can use to reduce their debt, and also to select 

quality institutions. 

A number of these efforts have been implemented through the 

Principles of Excellence Executive Order and our role working with 

our agency partners. We were working very closely with DoD and 

V.A. on the G.I. bill comparison tool which draws upon data from 

Education’s IPEDS system, and we have also been involved, as you 

know, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, in the implementation of the financial aid shopping sheet, which is now being used 

by more than 2,000 institutions. 

Through those efforts, we do hope that this is enabling students 

to make well-informed decisions about college options. 

Senator MURPHY. Thanks. 

Mr. Hubbard. 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Senator. I would like to applaud the 

DoD and their Tuition Assistance Program for taking those steps. 

I think that is an active measure that is absolutely necessary. 

I would also point to the comparison tool, which my colleague 

brought up. That comparison tool allows student veterans to make 

decisions on information, not guesses. That is very important. With 

the Million Records Project that Student Veterans of America published, which allowed a similar approach to make decisions for policymakers at the higher education level on veterans on data, not 

guesses. Anecdote is great, and that can point you in the right direction, but it is not something you can base a sound decision on. 

I would also note that for an individual to go to the comparison 

tool to find the school that they are interested in, and then to take 

it a step further by actually contacting a Student Veterans of 

America chapter or veterans on that campus. That allows them a 

very clear, on the ground perspective that, I think, is absolutely 

critical. If you are not talking to veterans who are actually experiencing what is going on, on the ground, you might have a flawed 

assessment. I mean, you can have a lot of pretty pictures on a lot 

of nice-looking Web sites, but at the end of the day, if you are not 

talking to people who are in the actual experience themselves, you 

probably are not going to get a clear picture of what is going on. 

I would applaud Senator Warren for her efforts on student debt. 

I think as individuals make better informed decisions, the student 

debt will come down. However, for the time being, this is still an 

important issue. People are going to schools that have false marketing practices and aggressively pursue veterans for their G.I. bill. 

This results in them losing benefits because they are not getting 

a degree with that G.I. bill benefit that they are spending. As a result, they end up losing time with that G.I. bill and have to take 

out further debt. 

31 

Senator MURPHY. Mr. Carlson. 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Senator. 

One of the things that I do as a part of my role at the University 

of Vermont is work very closely with perspective students who are 

incoming to the University and who are in that search process. And 

when I am speaking with a perspective student veteran who is deciding which school to attend, if the most important part of his or 

her decisionmaking process is, ‘‘How easy is it to use V.A. benefits 

here?’’ I think that is a problem. 

I think that students should be choosing schools based on academic programs, support systems, proximity to family, or other personal reasons and not just based on how easily they perceive to be 

able to use V.A. benefits at that institution. 

Senator BALDWIN. Senator Warren. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR WARREN

Senator WARREN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

I am glad to hear about the work to help prospective students 

get critical information when they are making decisions about 

where to go to school. But we still have many who are in programs 

that are happy to take the military member’s Federal benefits, but 

do not deliver on their promise of providing a good education. 

And as we know, this is a serious problem for any student, but 

even worse for those who are using G.I. benefits. Once a veteran 

entrusts a college with those hard-earned benefits, there is no second chance if the school turns out to be of very poor quality. 

Prior to this year, veterans and active duty military had few 

places to turn to share their stories and get help when they were 

mistreated by colleges. 

In January, the Federal Government launched a system for veterans and members of the military to file complaints about bad experiences they had with colleges. The Complaint Portal is a collaboration among several Federal agencies, including the Department 

of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Defense, the Department of 

Education, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. 

My question is, Dr. Langdon, how does the DoD plan to use the 

data that you are collecting from complaints to improve the Tuition 

Assistance program? 

Mr. LANGDON. Madam, it is a very good question. To caveat to 

my prior statement, not only must the schools be regionally and 

nationally accredited, but they also must be V.A. approved, and 

they also must be title IV approved. 

There are many levels that we wanted to make sure that the 

service member, when they were going to school, that they were 

going to protect. 

Senator WARREN. I understand about the front end. My question 

is you are collecting now a lot of complaint data. 

Mr. LANGDON. Yes. 

Senator WARREN. What I want to know is how do you plan to use 

the complaint data? 

Mr. LANGDON. As we brought it into date, ma’am, we have had 

146 complaints since January, complaints field since January when 

it was brought on. That is not a huge number, considering as the 

number that I have given you of 285,000. 

32 

What we are finding of that data, of those complaints, they are 

not actually complaints against a school per se. It is unknown policies or, ‘‘I did not know what a policy was.’’ It was a process or policy procedure. 

What we have realized, ma’am, is that we need to now start 

touching back with the universities, the ones that our students are 

going to and trying to help them understand what we are hearing 

and what we are finding about where the policies need to be, how 

the explanations need to go, just as to my colleague to the left here 

mentioned that before. It is easily accessible UNC on their policy. 

That is what we are using. 

Senator WARREN. Just so I understand, sir. 

Mr. LANGDON. Right. 

Senator WARREN. At this point, your plan is to investigate each 

one of these complaints. 

Mr. LANGDON. As they come in, yes. 

Senator WARREN. As they come in. And let me just ask while we 

have this out here, Ms. Thompson Sparks, why does the Federal 

Government not collect complaints from all students? 

Ms. THOMPSON SPARKS. I am not sure I have the specifics to answer that question. However, I will say that the collection of data 

is of utmost importance to us. 

Senator WARREN. But how about complaint data? 

Ms. THOMPSON SPARKS. The Department of Education is participating as part of the centralized complaint system. And to date, I 

do not have the exact number of complaints we have received, but 

I know it is feeding back into our understanding of how our title 

IV borrowers are utilizing their aid. 

Senator WARREN. Mr. Hubbard. 

Mr. HUBBARD. That is actually an excellent point, I think, Senator. And that is veterans are highlighting issues that have been 

occurring for individuals in higher education across the board. I 

think only until recently as these veterans have spoken out that 

these issues have surfaced. 

For veterans, they have no problem, necessarily saying, ‘‘Hey, I 

have earned these benefits and they are being used poorly.’’ I think 

to that end, we could encourage more veterans and more individuals in higher education to take similar steps. 

Collecting data across the board for individuals in higher education? Extremely important. If we are not doing that, we are letting all individuals down. Veterans that go to school will be let 

down because their peers are being let down. The educational environment as a result is hurt, and that hurts everyone across the 

board. 

Senator WARREN. Thank you. 

Mr. Carlson. 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Senator. 

One of the main complaints that I hear about the post–9/11 G.I. 

bill specifically is the ability for a veteran to separate from the 

military and then enter into a program that is V.A.-approved and 

is degree-seeking as a matriculated student at a school. 

The post–9/11 G.I. bill will pay up to two terms while they are 

seeking continuing education courses to become matriculated, degree-seeking students. However, one of the real problems that I 

33 

have run into is that at many schools, and University of Vermont 

is one of them, over the summer term there are many different 

meeting sessions with different beginning and end dates. And from 

the V.A. perspective, well for the University of Vermont, it is one 

semester. From V.A.’s perspective those are each separate terms. 

I have students, when we think about nontraditional students 

and student veterans being some of the most nontraditional, we 

have individuals who entered UVM in the spring semester who are 

trying to be degree-seeking, matriculated students in the fall who 

can only get a portion of their summer course paid. And that is 

something that I have seen that is a real problem. It is a barrier 

to them becoming degree seeking students. 

Senator WARREN. Ms. Rhinehardt. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Yes, ma’am. We all sit here, with complaints 

about rising tuition and the cost of going to college. And as I listen 

to my fellow panelists—I heard, I do not know, on the fourth 

iteration of a DoD MOU or third. I lost track. The Department of 

Education is doing something, CFPB is doing something, the V.A. 

is doing something. 

Back home in North Carolina, we have a lot of State legislators 

asking us, ‘‘Why do you have so much middle management?’’ Well, 

because we have to keep up with all of these processes and make 

sure we are inputting all these things to comply. Every minute that 

we are working to comply with multiple agencies that may or may 

not be coordinating, that is a minute that is taken away from serving the veteran. 

Senator WARREN. I am sorry, Ms. Rhinehardt. I want to make 

sure I understand you. What we are talking about here is an established complaint system that has only been established since January, and it is there to take complaints directly from veterans or active duty service members who are having a problem with a college. 

Are you saying that when we get a followup from the Department of Defense that they should not be following on those complaints to find out what the veteran’s problem is with the college 

and whether or not the college is appropriately addressing it because it takes your time? 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. No, ma’am. Actually, I did not address the 

complaint system at all. 

Senator WARREN. That was what my question was about—the 

complaint system and whether we should have a complaint system. 

Not just for veterans and active duty military, but we should also 

have a complaint system for all students. 

I want to make the point that having a complaint system in 

place is a powerful tool for accountability. In a little over 2 years 

the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has handled nearly a 

quarter of a million complaints about financial products. Service 

members, veterans, and their families are only a small portion of 

those who have complained, but they have already recovered more 

than $1 million from financial institutions through this complaint 

system. 

Every complaint, however, has been valuable because it tells an 

agency what kind of problems exist and where they exist and perVerDate Nov 24 2008 16:47 Feb 23, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6601 S:\DOCS\22616.TXT DENISE
34 

mits that agency to examine the institutions that are failing those 

they are supposed to serve. 

Most recently, the CFPB complaint data formed the basis of a $97 million settlement against Sallie Mae for overcharging veterans on their student loans. We should take seriously the importance of developing robust complaint systems and using the data 

that come from those systems. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

Senator BURR. Madam Chair, could I say to my colleague, there 

has been a complaint system that has been available to every student, not just to veterans. It is the accreditation agency. Any student, since I can remember, could file a complaint with the accrediting agency of that institution. And I am not saying that is prefect 

for veterans, but we have not been without a mechanism for students to complain to people who can affect whether the accreditation of that institution is intact or not. 

Senator WARREN. I appreciate the Senator’s comments about a 

complaint system that is in place. But when we have had the 

accreditors in here to talk about the process under which they consider accreditation and whether or not they actually take steps, I 

think we can conclude that it has not been a very effective process 

for making sure that students’ complaints are heard or acted upon. 

Senator BURR. My good friend raises a good question. 

Senator BALDWIN. The Chair is here to call upon Senator Casey. 

Senator BURR. My good friend raises a question that is the subject of debate for higher education reauthorization and I take it 

that way. But let me just be on the record, it does not take the 

Federal Government stepping in to create something. We should 

make sure that what we have got in place works and I support 

what DoD is doing. I think it is important for the veteran’s program. But if we have got something that is broken, then let us 

make it work. 

Senator BALDWIN. Senator Casey. 

STATEMENT OF SENATOR CASEY

Senator CASEY. Thanks very much, and I appreciate the testimony of the panelists. I know I missed a lot of your testimony here 

today, but appreciate the work you have done to provide written 

testimony that we will benefit from. And I also appreciate the commitment that you have made on these issues. 

When I consider what our obligations are to veterans, I think it 

starts with that basic understanding that I have often said is not 

good enough for us at the time of a military engagement to pray 

for veterans. It is also our obligation to make sure that we are worthy of their valor. And being worthy of their valor means getting 

the policy right, and that is what you are helping us with when it 

comes to helping veterans get their higher education and job readiness opportunities when they come back. 

I need to do a little bragging for just a moment about my State, 

if you do not mind. We all do that at some point. We are all allowed to do this, but a couple of institutions that were ranked by 

‘‘U.S. News & World Report’’ in November 2013 for their efforts on 

behalf of veterans and student veterans. Penn State was ranked 

No. 1 and Drexel University came in 12th. Temple and Duquesne 

35 

were tied for 24th. I am pretty happy about that and I want to 

make sure they heard that I bragged about them. Maybe no one 

else has done that today. There are some good models out there 

and we want to draw upon them and use them as templates. 

One question I had, and I will start with Mr. Hubbard and then 

broaden it from there. You and your organization helped us put together legislation, the Veterans Education Counseling Act, which 

as its purpose to empower veterans seeking an education by making sure that they know they are entitled to basic education counseling. 

A lot of this revolves around so-called Chapter 36 Education 

Counseling. Our bill asks the V.A. to make it clear the differentiation between the Chapter 36 education counseling and the so-called 

Chapter 31 Vocational Rehabilitation program. 

We want to make sure that they are aware of what they are entitled to. That sounds almost elementary or self-evident, but as we 

know, often in Government sometimes even if you have a good policy in place, folks do not know about it because we do not often do 

a good job of telling them. 

I want to start with you, Mr. Hubbard, about that concept in the 

bill, but also anything else that you hope we would do as it relates 

to not just policy on veterans education, but making sure that we 

can make sure that folks are aware of what benefits are there for 

them. 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Senator. 

I appreciate that. I will point out that Drexel was a recent Chapter of the Month for Student Veterans of America, so they are 

doing excellent things. 

Senator CASEY. Thank you for helping me do my job. I appreciate 

that. 

Mr. HUBBARD. That is what we are here for. 

I believe that the 1-year out counseling is something that is critical. Counseling, in general, is obviously very important, but catching them 1 year out before they are end of active service, they are 

EAS, is critical. 

We are not doing that as well as we should, and it does sound 

elementary that individuals would be informed about what they 

are entitled to. That does not always happen. It simply just does 

not happen in a lot of cases. I think that is just a product of the 

system. Not a lot of individuals, by the time it gets down to the 

unit level or even below to the individual level, it is just not happening. 

That information is important for individuals to be able to actually make a clear, informed decision. If they do not have that information, who knows what is going to happen. They might say, 

‘‘Well, I am not entitled to go to school.’’ ‘‘Well, you just did 4 years 

in the Marine Corps. Of course you are.’’ 

A second point I would like to make is that of access. If you have 

the information to make the right decisions, that is obviously a precursor. But if you cannot access your benefits, if the system is too 

difficult to process it, if your claim gets lost, if an individual finally 

gets to the university but finds out they cannot afford it because 

they do not have in-State tuition, for example. You do not have 

that access and that is going to be a critical barrier. 

36 

A side note to that, that issue is something that we are critically 

looking at. If an individual racks up a lot of debt, they go through 

school. Maybe they did not get their degree, but they come out, now 

they cannot pursue a career. They have a difficult time paying off 

their bills, and this is something that we are very concerned about. 

Senator CASEY. I may come back to that, but I know, Mr. Carlson, Ms. Rhinehardt. 

Mr. CARLSON. Thank you, Senator. 

Some of the work that I do with prospective students when I am 

sitting with a military veteran, and often their family, across the 

desk from me and I say, ‘‘Hey, it is great. You got Chapter 33 post– 

9/11 G.I. bill. Do you know how that works and do you know how 

it works at the University of Vermont,’’ because each institution of 

higher learning has some different policies and procedures in place. 

And a lot of times I hear, ‘‘Oh, yes. Absolutely. I know exactly what 

it pays.’’ 

Then I go through exactly what it will do, and sometimes there 

can be a little bit of a shock. There can be, ‘‘Oh, I did not know 

that it did not cover out-of-State tuition.’’ And more often it is very 

positive saying, ‘‘Wow, I did not know that it paid really that much 

and that I got this amazing housing allowance while I am engaged.’’ 

Whenever I have a student, a prospective student or a current 

student who does not understand their benefit entirely, I think it 

is very important that we begin that education process early in 

their separation period. 

Senator CASEY. Just ask before moving on, what is the best delivery mechanism to do that? In other words, obviously, the V.A. 

But I want to get a better understanding of what is the problem 

here if that information is not transmitted to the veteran? 

Mr. CARLSON. Yes, sir. I believe that a lot of information in the 

military is passed through peer experience and through peer engagement. There is a lot less of the texting, email, kind of things 

for the chain of command that comes down from the platoon commander to the squad leader to the individual Marine or soldier or 

airmen. 

I think that implementing peer engagement along that point 

would be something that is very helpful. 

Senator CASEY. OK. Yes. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. To brag on our Marines at Camp Lejeune a little bit. Their process, which I think is now a Marine Corps wide 

process, is that all new Marines on their very first day of coming 

in after they stand in the yellow footprints, and get their haircut, 

and figure out where they are is that they start their education 

pathway that day. 

Senator CASEY. OK. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. They start to determine how their military career is going to factor into an eventual civilian career. And I know 

that my colleagues at Camp Lejeune were very instrumental in developing that pathway. So it is happening within the service 

branches and it is not perfect. Nothing is, but it is a really good 

start. 

At the University of North Carolina, I would like to agree that 

with all of their points that transparency and information sharing 

37 

is critical. That is why we have developed an online portal called 

the North Carolina Military Educational Positioning System. We 

want it to be a one-stop shop place for any student, veteran, 

spouse, or dependent to go in and use decision tree models to figure 

out, based on their own personal circumstances, here are your options to consider. We do not ever inform them of what the right option is. We just lead them to their ultimate choices. And they can 

save that under a personalized account. And we intentionally decided that we did not want this to be limited to just public institutions in the State. We understand that we cannot educate every citizen in the State of North Carolina. We need our private institutions to help us do that. 

We want to make sure that the veteran or the service member 

has access to the institution that is right for them. 

Senator CASEY. Thank you. 

Ms. Starks. I will not ask anymore because we are getting close 

on time. We have two minutes. 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. Thank you. We know how important 

counseling and early information is for all students to make important decisions about pursuing higher education. And I want to 

mention three action areas, in particular, that have been significant in the Department’s contributions to support service members 

and veterans. 

The first is working with our agency partners on the redesign of 

Transition GPS. The emphasis has really been on a military 

lifecycle model, which enables service members to get access to critical information before they are separating. This is really important. It is meeting service members at the point at which they are 

making important choices about the path to pursue after military 

service. 

The second, I would like to mention that we have pursued, 

through our Office of Federal Student Aid, is a financial aid tool 

kit that includes information and resources, from fact sheets to 

how-to videos that are really targeted toward counselors and those 

that are working with students. We have also customized a guide 

for military service members and veterans to provide key information about their Federal benefits. 

And third, I would like to mention that we are doing training 

and direct outreach to DoD’s Transition GPS accessing higher education facilitators, which is really helping to build capacity on the 

ground, and provide the important information to their team. 

Senator CASEY. Great. Thank you. Mr. Hubbard, you are on borrowed time. 

Mr. HUBBARD. I know. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate that. 

If I can actually just quickly emphasize a quick point that my 

colleague and fellow Devil Dog made and that is the peer experience. I think this touches on an absolutely critical point. While I 

do appreciate the institutional support and think that is a necessary precursor, without that, I think anything else is a moot 

point. 

I will say that peer-to-peer access to information is probably the 

most important point in this conversation. That is how individuals, 

Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen, get their information from 

each other. 

38 

Senator CASEY. Yes. 

Mr. HUBBARD. And so that is truly probably the most critical 

point. 

Senator CASEY. Thank you very much. 

Thank you, Senator Baldwin. 

Ms. RHINEHARDT. Just to quickly respond. You can have all the 

advanced information in the world, so long as you know what your 

plan, what your outcome looks like. We have a lot of folks within 

the military who are receiving involuntary discharge orders. They 

do not realize they are not going to be in the military next year. 

They are not contemplating going to school at this moment. So we 

need to remember that there are a lot of folks out there that their 

lives have just changed and it is beyond their control. 

Senator CASEY. Thank you. 

Senator BALDWIN. I think we are going to do a quick second 

round and I will start with my own questions. 

I would like to return to the Million Records Project. I understand SBA has been working in collaboration with the Department 

of Veterans Affairs and the National Student Clearinghouse on 

that project to help us, as policymakers and veterans and citizens, 

better understand the education and career outcomes of veterans. 

And I also believe that, in order to help veterans and service 

members meet their goals, they have to have clear, outcome-driven 

information on which to base educational decisions. 

Two years ago, when I was a member of the House of Representatives, I was proud to support both the Camp Lejeune Families Act 

and the Improving Transparency of Educational Opportunities for 

Veterans Act, both of which require reporting on educational outcomes for veterans by the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs. 

The Camp Lejeune Families Act required reporting on student 

outcomes such as certificate degree attainment, credit hours, and 

other qualifications earned. The Improving Transparency of Education Opportunities for Veterans Act of 2012 also required the 

V.A. to report on important metrics such as graduation rates, cohort default rates, median amount of debt, and many other metrics. 

I have a twofold question. First, are there additional metrics that 

you think that policymakers and the Federal Government ought to 

be collecting in order to get a better idea of how our veterans and 

service members are progressing through higher education? 

And second, how can we make this information on student outcomes, such as degree or certificate attainment or the financial 

metrics such as cohort default rates, readily available and much 

more easily digestible for students seeking that data? 

I will start with you, Mr. Hubbard and then Ms. Rhinehardt. 

Mr. HUBBARD. Thank you, Senator. 

I think the Million Records Project was groundbreaking research. 

It was the first time in over 70 years that we actually had a clear 

picture of how veterans were doing in higher education. 

This kind of research has not been done since World War II. Why 

it was not done previously? Hard to say, but it was a very difficult 

process to do. But we were happy and excited to be able to offer 

that to policymakers, such as those in the Senate. 

39 

This data-driven approach is something that we take very seriously at Student Veterans of America. We do not base decisions on 

whim or anecdote. We base decisions on the data. We look at the 

data for our thoughts. 

I think that schools could do a lot to compare themselves to this 

data. We did not necessarily look at institutional level data. We 

looked at a broad understanding to get a baseline across the 10 

years of G.I. bill use. 

I think institutions, if they were to compare themselves and 

make sure that they are tracking that data, tracking their own outcomes of veterans, they could look inward and figure out, are they 

doing better, worse, what is working, what is not. 

That is something that we are also looking at in phase 2 of the 

Million Records Project to understand the qualitative reason for the 

outcomes that we are seeing. Figure out what we can do to perhaps 

improve those numbers. 

To your point about additional metrics, I think in our phase 2, 

we are looking at several different features like Vet Success on 

Campus. Is that working? What are the outcomes of that, the impact of that on student education? 

And then also in terms of loans, I think that is something that 

we are also very interested in. There is currently no way for an individual to have an aggregated view of their current debt or loans 

that they have. You have the Department of Education’s loans and 

Federal loans that are out there. You also have private loans and 

those two do not necessarily talk. 

If we can come up with an approach that would aggregate this 

information, it would allow universities to have a better understanding of how their students are doing, and it would also allow 

individuals to have a better understanding of how they are doing. 

Currently, the only system we know out there that does this is 

the National Student Clearinghouse’s Meteor Program. This is 

something that we are very interested in and think could benefit 

students widely. 

Senator BALDWIN. Senator Burr. 

Senator BURR. Thanks, Senator Baldwin. 

Ms. Starks, since Senator Warren brought up the Sallie Mae settlement, may I ask you some questions? 

Pamela Moran was employed by the Department of Education’s 

Office of Postsecondary Education here in the summer of 2011. Are 

you familiar with her June 9, 2011 letter, in her capacity as a Department official to the Consumer Bankers Association Education 

Finance Council, the National Council of Higher Education, and 

the Student Loan Servicing Alliance responding to their request for 

clarification regarding SCRA compliance and proper treatment of 

veterans? Where she said, 

‘‘We agree that when a member of the military does not 

clearly specify an end date for their service, that is a reasonable approach to interpreting the service dates on military orders to identify the start and end dates for the interest relief 

rate relief.’’ 

Are you familiar with that letter? 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. No, sir. I do not have that letter. 

Senator BURR. Are you familiar with the letter? 

40 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. No, I am not. 

Senator BURR. Do you consider a letter from Ms. Moran to be as 

an authority within the Department of Education providing guidance to the student loan industry representatives to say that there 

is a start and an end date must be present in a service member’s 

request in order for a lender to grant the request? 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. Sir, thank you for the question. 

Since I am not familiar with that letter, and do not have the letter with me, I will just say that I know that this is an issue that 

we are taking very seriously. 

Senator BURR. But that was the Department’s policy. That was 

the guidance that they gave to lenders. Do you agree with that? 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. I am sorry. I cannot comment on that. 

Senator BURR. Is this an issue that the Department has said 

that, as a matter of fact, they announced it would issue guidance 

for student loan servicers clarifying this contradictory guidance 

that have been issuing to the field from what the Department of 

Justice and FDIC have been putting out in the field. 

Is this a guidance that is being reconsidered currently at the Department of Education? 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. I will say that we are taking steps working closely with the Department of Justice to ensure accountability 

and that our service members are getting the 6 percent interest 

rate cap to which they are entitled. 

I do know that we are directing all of our servicers to match borrow portfolios to the DoD–SCRA data base, which should ensure 

that eligibility is determined more quickly and that paperwork burdens are reduced. 

I will also say that as we are conducting these reviews, we are 

preparing additional guidance to try to streamline borrower processes and provide additional clarifications as to what our expectations are. We take this very, very seriously and know that serving 

our borrowers is of our utmost and highest priority. 

Senator BURR. Ms. Starks, I think the Department has said publicly, ‘‘We are going to clarify our guidance because of this decision,’’ which means that their interpretation was it was not clear. 

It seems the Department could provide more guidance to 

servicers by clearing up the differences between active duty personnel as defined under the Higher Education Act whereas the 

SCRA provides benefits for members during periods of military 

service creating a distinction between reservists and active duty 

personnel overall. 

So which statute is accurate in your determination, the Higher 

Education Act or the SCRA? And to whom does the 6 percent interest rate benefit accrue to? 

Ms. THOMPSON STARKS. Sir, I very much appreciate your questions and I would be very glad to take those questions back and 

provide a response for the record. 

Senator BURR. I appreciate that and I think I have made the 

point that this is why it is difficult for servicers to provide these 

products because we cannot get clarity on whether you fall this 

way or that way. 

And I would just say to my colleague who, since we are the last 

Indians here, it is important that not only Congress be specific in 

41 

the legislation we write. It is absolutely crucial that the agencies 

in their guidance provide accurate, thoughtful guidance. This is not 

something we should let the Department of Justice determine in 

the end and penalize somebody because of the guidance that they 

got from an agency of the Federal Government. 

I thank the Chair. 

Senator BALDWIN. I thank Senator Burr for co-chairing this 

roundtable with me. I want to thank the participants for, first of 

all, those of you who have served, thank you for your service. 

Thank you for your participation today. Your testimony is very 

helpful to us. 

I request that the record remain open for 10 business days for 

members to submit statements and additional questions for the 

record. 

I appreciate the participation of my colleagues. 

And with that, the committee will stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 

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