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24–655 PDF 2017

BUILDING A 21ST-CENTURY INFRASTRUCTURE FOR 

AMERICA: AIR TRANSPORTATION IN THE 

UNITED STATES IN THE 21ST CENTURY 

(115–4) 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

AVIATION 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON 

TRANSPORTATION AND 

INFRASTRUCTURE 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

MARCH 8, 2017 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure 

( 

Available online at: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/ 

committee.action?chamber=house&committee=transportation 

COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman 

DON YOUNG, Alaska 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee, 

Vice Chair 

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

DUNCAN HUNTER, California 

ERIC A. ‘‘RICK’’ CRAWFORD, Arkansas 

LOU BARLETTA, Pennsylvania 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

BOB GIBBS, Ohio 

DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida 

JEFF DENHAM, California 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois 

MARK SANFORD, South Carolina 

ROB WOODALL, Georgia 

TODD ROKITA, Indiana 

JOHN KATKO, New York 

BRIAN BABIN, Texas 

GARRET GRAVES, Louisiana 

BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia 

DAVID ROUZER, North Carolina 

MIKE BOST, Illinois 

RANDY K. WEBER, SR., Texas 

DOUG LAMALFA, California 

BRUCE WESTERMAN, Arkansas 

LLOYD SMUCKER, Pennsylvania 

PAUL MITCHELL, Michigan 

JOHN J. FASO, New York 

A. DREW FERGUSON IV, Georgia 

BRIAN J. MAST, Florida 

JASON LEWIS, Minnesota 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

JERROLD NADLER, New York 

EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas 

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California 

DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey 

JOHN GARAMENDI, California 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., Georgia 

ANDRE ́ CARSON, Indiana 

RICHARD M. NOLAN, Minnesota 

DINA TITUS, Nevada 

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY, New York 

ELIZABETH H. ESTY, Connecticut, Vice 

Ranking Member 

LOIS FRANKEL, Florida 

CHERI BUSTOS, Illinois 

JARED HUFFMAN, California 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida 

DONALD M. PAYNE, JR., New Jersey 

ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

MARK DESAULNIER, California 

(II) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey, Chairman 

DON YOUNG, Alaska 

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

DUNCAN HUNTER, California 

BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas 

BOB GIBBS, Ohio 

DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida 

JEFF DENHAM, California 

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky 

MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina 

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 

RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois 

MARK SANFORD, South Carolina 

ROB WOODALL, Georgia 

TODD ROKITA, Indiana 

BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia 

DOUG LAMALFA, California 

BRUCE WESTERMAN, Arkansas 

PAUL MITCHELL, Michigan, Vice Chair 

JASON LEWIS, Minnesota 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania (Ex Officio) 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas 

DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois 

ANDRE ́ CARSON, Indiana 

CHERI BUSTOS, Illinois 

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of 

Columbia 

DINA TITUS, NEVADA 

SEAN PATRICK MALONEY, New York 

JULIA BROWNLEY, California 

DONALD M. PAYNE, JR., New Jersey 

BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan 

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts 

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California 

STEVE COHEN, Tennessee 

HENRY C. ‘‘HANK’’ JOHNSON, JR., Georgia 

RICHARD M. NOLAN, Minnesota 

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon (Ex Officio) 

(III) 

(V) 

CONTENTS Page 

Summary of Subject Matter .................................................................................... vi 

TESTIMONY 

Brad Tilden, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Alaska Air Group, Inc. ... 6 

Russell ‘‘Chip’’ Childs, President and Chief Executive Officer, SkyWest, Inc. ... 6 

Joseph C. Hete, President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Services 

Group, Inc. ............................................................................................................ 6 

Sara Nelson, International President, Association of Flight Attendants— 

CWA, AFL–CIO .................................................................................................... 6 

Charles Leocha, President, Travelers United, Inc. ............................................... 6 

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES 

Brad Tilden .............................................................................................................. 42 

Russell ‘‘Chip’’ Childs .............................................................................................. 45 

Joseph C. Hete ......................................................................................................... 55 

Sara Nelson .............................................................................................................. 58 

Charles Leocha ......................................................................................................... 71 

SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD 

Hon. Rick Larsen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Washington, submission of the following: 

Written statement from Captain Timothy Canoll, President, Air Line 

Pilots Association, International .................................................................. 81 

Letter of March 7, 2017, from Captain Timothy Canoll, President, Air 

Line Pilots Association, International ......................................................... 88 

Written statement from Robert A. Ross, National President, Association 

of Professional Flight Attendants ................................................................ 90 

Chart prepared by Hon. Peter A. DeFazio, a Representative in Congress 

from the State of Oregon, submitted by Hon. Todd Rokita, a Representative 

in Congress from the State of Indiana ............................................................... 17 

ADDITIONS TO THE RECORD 

Written statements from: 

Christian A. Klein, Executive Vice President, Aeronautical Repair Station 

Association ..................................................................................................... 93 

Atlas Air Worldwide ......................................................................................... 98 

Stephen A. Alterman, President, Cargo Airline Association ........................ 100 

Candace McGraw, Chief Executive Officer, Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky 

International Airport, et al. ......................................................................... 102 

Will Lo ̈fberg, Vice President, International, Government and Environment Affairs, Emirates Airline .................................................................... 104 

FedEx Corporation ........................................................................................... 111 

Phillip N. Brown, Executive Director, Greater Orlando Aviation Authority ................................................................................................................... 118 

Jonathan Ornstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mesa Air 

Group, Inc. ..................................................................................................... 122 

Frode Berg, Chief Legal Officer, Norwegian Air Shuttle .............................. 124 

Paralyzed Veterans of America ....................................................................... 130 

William J. Flynn, President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlas Air Worldwide, et al., on behalf of U.S. Airlines for Open Skies ............................... 136 

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(1) 

BUILDING A 21ST-CENTURY INFRASTRUCTURE FOR AMERICA: AIR TRANSPORTATION 

IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE 21ST CENTURY 

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 8, 2017 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION, 

COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE, 

Washington, DC. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in room 

2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Frank A. LoBiondo 

(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Good morning. The subcommittee will come to 

order. Thank you all for being here. 

Before I begin the prepared remarks, I would like to thank the 

Colgan family for once again being here, for so many of them being 

so strong in their continued dedication and commitment to enduring aviation safety. So thank you very much. 

Today, the Aviation Subcommittee is holding its third hearing in 

preparation for the upcoming FAA authorization bill. As all of you 

know, the focus of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee this year is ‘‘Building a 21st-Century Infrastructure for 

America.’’ Today, we will be looking at the current state of our Nation’s air transportation system and those who operate in it. We 

will also learn what those operators believe are needed for the system to move into the future. 

And we also want to learn from those in the public in the days 

ahead. We have created a dedicated email address to receive your 

ideas and welcome them very much. It is 

transportfeedback@mail.house.gov. Please send us your ideas. 

Air transportation has become so commonplace that we really 

don’t think about what an impact it has on our daily lives. Journeys that once took days, weeks, or even months are now safely 

completed in hours. We can order something online and have it delivered the next day. 

Today, air travel is routinely and readily available to millions of 

Americans. In fact, last year more than 800 million passengers 

traveled by air within the United States, a figure that is projected 

to grow to 1 billion within 10 years. 

This remarkable system is a testament to the hard work of the 

pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and others who take us safely 

across the country and around the world. 

2 

Air transportation in the United States is diverse. Along with 

private aviation, it also includes mainline airlines, regionals, allcargo airlines, and charter companies, each playing a vital role in 

meeting various needs of the traveling public and economy. 

Mainline airlines connect our major cities and also connect us to 

other countries. Regional airlines help connect many small and medium-size communities to large hub airports, providing them access 

to the globe. For other communities and certain travelers, such as 

small business operators, charter service or fractional ownership 

may be the only viable air transport option. Cargo airlines allow 

for our factories and supply chain inventories to remain fully 

stocked and keep goods flowing between businesses to consumers. 

They also play a large role in e-commerce. 

Our panel today represents a range of air transportation companies and stakeholders. Each witness brings a unique expertise and 

perspective on the state of our system. I look forward to their testimony on how Congress can help facilitate the building of a 21stcentury aviation infrastructure. 

Before recognizing Ranking Member Larsen for his remarks, I 

would like to ask unanimous consent that the record of today’s 

hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in 

writing and unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 

additional days for comments and information submitted by Members or witnesses to be included in the record of today’s hearing. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

I would now like to yield to Mr. Larsen for any remarks he may 

have. 

Mr. LARSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for calling today’s hearing on the state of today’s U.S. air transportation industry. I too 

would like to recognize the families of the passengers of Colgan 

flight 3407 who are with us today. 

Welcome, and thank you for your tireless efforts to improve aviation safety. 

I also want to welcome to today’s panel of witnesses Brad Tilden, 

the CEO of Seattle-based Alaska Airlines and a fellow Aleut. Brad 

and I know what that is. It is not necessary to explain it. 

The U.S. airspace is the busiest and most complex in the world 

and is undergoing a historic shift in modernization in the form of 

FAA’s NextGen program. Alaska Airlines has been a strong advocate for NextGen, which has delivered more than $2.7 billion in 

benefits to airlines and operators of GA aircraft and is expected to 

produce $13 billion in benefits for the Government and users by 

2020 and over $160 billion by 2030. 

I understand that NextGen’s performance-based navigation or 

PBN procedures allow Alaska Airlines flights to fly more directly 

and precisely into Juno each day. And the Greener Skies initiative 

improves the efficiency of the airline’s flights, its landings at SeaTac International Airport. 

So, Mr. Tilden, I look forward to hearing from you today about 

how the state-of-the-art NextGen technologies and procedures are 

improving efficiency in today’s airspace and providing benefits for 

the aviation industry generally. 

3 

Not only the busiest and most complex, the U.S. is the safest 

aviation system in the world, and I would like to commend the 

FAA and all the industry witnesses here today and everyone involved in the air transportation system for their coordination and 

continued commitment to ensuring the highest level of safety. This 

laudable safety record of U.S. commercial airlines in recent years 

is due in large part to the 2010 congressional mandate that each 

airline pilot possesses an airline transportation certificate. I personally support that. I believe that current pilot training requirements are nonnegotiable. 

At the same time, though, I realize that some regional air carriers, among them there is some concern about the shortage of pilots in this country. So earlier this week Ranking Member DeFazio 

and I made a request to the Department of Transportation’s inspector general—I am sorry. At our request, the DOT inspector general 

reported that some regional airlines have started increasing pay to 

attract additional pilots. That is a step in the right direction. 

I also look forward to hearing today from Ms. Sara Nelson from 

the Association of Flight Attendants. We are in the midst of the 

safest period in U.S. civil aviation history, thanks in large part to 

the hard work of U.S. flight attendants. Their training and readiness to spring into action have saved lives and dangerous accidents. Therefore, it is critical that flight attendants are well-rested 

and that out-of-date Federal regulations of flight attendants’ flight 

and duty periods are reformed. 

Last year’s long-term FAA bill, as reported by the committee, included such a provision. I look forward to working with Chairman 

LoBiondo to ensure its inclusion in the FAA bill this year. 

And today, I am pleased to join with Ranking Member DeFazio 

in introducing a bill to improve passengers’ travel experience by requiring airlines to be more transparent about what they will do for 

passengers caught up in large-scale network meltdowns, among 

other things. 

We must continue to ensure the air travel experience is fair and 

devoid of discrimination. On this front, I was pleased to have included in last year’s short-term bill a provision on air travel accessibility and look forward to hearing what more the subcommittee 

can do to improve passengers’ travel experience. 

And finally, Mr. Chairman, I would ask for unanimous consent 

that written statements prepared by the Air Line Pilots Association, International and the Association of Professional Flight Attendants be entered into the record. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Without objection, so ordered. 

[The information can be found on pages 81–92.] 

Mr. LARSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the 

witnesses’ testimony. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Now I would like to recognize Mr. Shuster for 

any comments he may have. 

Mr. SHUSTER. Thank you, Chairman LoBiondo. Let me start by 

echoing your thanks to the families, the Colgan families, for being 

here, and your efforts to make sure that we have the safest possible system we can have. And so thank you very much for that 

dedication. 

4 

I want to thank Chairman LoBiondo and Ranking Member 

Larsen again for this third in a series of the Aviation Subcommittee hearings focusing on FAA reauthorization and building 

a 21st-century aviation system for America. I look forward to discussing the state of the transportation industry. It is a vital industry to America. It is one of our most important, one we invented, 

and it for all my efforts is to continue to make sure that America 

leads the aviation industry in the world. 

Private air transportation plays an important role in our aviation 

system, connecting our smaller communities. I come from a rural 

community. It is vital that we have those connections. The general 

aviation also provides a tremendous training ground for potential 

future pilots to be able to go to work for the bigger carriers to make 

sure that we have the levels necessary to staff those planes and to 

continue to grow air transportation in this country. 

As I said, we have been a leader in it, and I want to maintain 

that leadership in the world. We have done lots of things over the 

last 40 years, from low-cost carriers, fractional ownership, giving 

people more and more choices, how we get our tickets, whether it 

is an e-ticket, which I am still not sure I know how to do, but I 

stumble along. 

It is true. I know what Aleut means, too. That is what pirates 

used to do. 

But, no, I stumble and bumble along with the technology, but 

having 20-year-old kids, they seem to get me to where I am going, 

as well as Mr. Larsen sometimes helps me. 

Again, in 2016, we took steps in the extension to help families 

sit together, things like that, that we thought would be helpful to 

the folks that are traveling in this country. 

Forty years after airline deregulation, which occurred in 1978, 

the airline industry continues to evolve. And I am really interested 

in hearing from our witnesses today and to continue efforts to 

evolve and provide America with more choices, more opportunities 

for safe air travel. 

So I look forward to being here. Thank all of you for being here 

and taking the time to help educate us and help in this discussion. 

And with that I yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Now I would like to turn to Mr. DeFazio for any 

remarks. 

Peter. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

You know, we are living in the safest period of the U.S. civil 

aviation history. We can all be thankful for that. We want to sustain that. We are also looking at one of the longest and most profitable sustained periods for the airlines, combined after-tax profit, 

$25.6 billion in 2015, including $6.8 billion in bag and reservation 

change fees. 

And I would like to recognize that Brad Tilden here, representing 

Alaska, registered a record profit in 2016 of nearly $1 billion. Congratulations. 

A healthy industry is good for everyone, travelers, employees, our 

economy as a whole, and we want to see this continue into the future. 

5 

I am concerned, and Ranking Member Larsen raised it earlier, 

about the IT situation. We had many thousands, tens of thousands 

of people stranded over the last couple of years because of IT meltdowns, some that relate to the dispatch of the planes, some that 

relate to the reservation systems. 

One high-profile event at Chicago Midway International Airport 

was described by a travel blogger as a war zone with the floors covered by stranded passengers. None of the airlines represented here 

today caused those disruptions, although SkyWest partnered some 

that did, and I am going to be interested if Mr. Childs has any reflection upon how difficult it was for them and their intended passengers because of those problems. 

So the bill we introduced would give people—I mean, people in 

Chicago Midway were just told by that particular airline: Go look 

at your contract of carriage if you want to know what you can get. 

We think it should be a little more clear than paging through the 

fine print somewhere online what obligations the airlines have 

when the airline itself has caused the problem with an IT meltdown. So I have introduced that bill today. 

The most important issue, as I said earlier, is safety. And we 

have Colgan families here today, many of whom I have met with 

and worked with in the past, and I appreciate your persistence. I 

think probably I first raised the issue of 250 hours rating back in 

the early 1990s. It took way too long to change that, and unfortunately you had tremendous losses that ultimately did lead to that 

change. You know, I observed many times that people who are becoming hair stylists and manicurists in Oregon had to have 600 

hours of training, but you could have people’s lives in your hands 

and fly a plane with 250 hours. That was not adequate. 

Some are out there saying that this has led to a pilot shortage. 

As Ranking Member Larsen said earlier, we have a study showing 

that the pay is pathetically low at some regional airlines. Just look 

at Embry-Riddle. If you go to school there and go through the 

training for your certificate, it comes to about $300,000. 

But say, OK, some are advocating let’s roll back the hours and 

some other things, cut the cost. All right, let’s cut it down to 

$200,000 to get a certificate, something I don’t support. But if you 

think about what that means, $200,000 is a little over $2,000 a 

month on your loans, and you are earning $20,000 a year. 

Now how does negative $4,000 income work out? That is why we 

had the copilot on the Colgan flight living in her parents’ basement 

in Seattle and deadheading across the country. That shouldn’t happen. 

And a lot of young people are not going to make a rational decision to become pilots until the pay better matches the costs of getting the certificate and engaging in that occupation. So I think that 

is a problem, but weakening the rules is not the solution. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you, Mr. DeFazio. 

I would now like to turn to our witnesses. And on the panel 

today included are Mr. Brad Tilden, chairman and chief executive 

officer of Alaska Air Group; Mr. Russell ‘‘Chip’’ Childs, president 

and chief executive officer of SkyWest, Incorporated; Mr. Joseph 

Hete, president and chief executive officer of Air Transport Services 

6 

Group; Ms. Sara Nelson, international president of the Association 

of Flight Attendants—CWA, AFL–CIO; and Mr. Charles Leocha, 

chairman and cofounder of Travelers United. 

Mr. Tilden, you are recognized for your statement. 

TESTIMONY OF BRAD TILDEN, CHAIRMAN AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, ALASKA AIR GROUP, INC.; RUSSELL ‘‘CHIP’’ 

CHILDS, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, 

SKYWEST, INC.; JOSEPH C. HETE, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, AIR TRANSPORT SERVICES GROUP, INC.; 

SARA NELSON, INTERNATIONAL PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION 

OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS—CWA, AFL–CIO; AND CHARLES 

LEOCHA, PRESIDENT, TRAVELERS UNITED, INC. 

Mr. TILDEN. Chairman LoBiondo, Ranking Member Larsen, 

Chairman Shuster and Ranking Member DeFazio, and members of 

the committee, thank you very much for this opportunity to testify 

today. It is a real pleasure to be here to talk about Alaska Airlines 

and the industry. 

My name is Brad Tilden, and I am the CEO of Alaska Air Group. 

Alaska Airlines is the fifth-largest airline in the United States following our recent acquisition of Virgin America. We now have approximately 19,000 employees, 280 aircraft, and we fly about 1,200 

flights a day. 

While that may or may not sound like a large company, we are 

small by airline standards. We have been in business for 85 years, 

but we don’t fit the legacy carrier mold in that we are low cost, low 

fare, and in the end that we have grown at a significantly higher 

rate than the average airline. 

Our customer-facing employees are focused on making the flying 

experience from start to finish as great as possible every day for 

our guests. As a testament to their skill and dedication, we are 

honored to have been recognized for 9 consecutive years by J.D. 

Power as the best traditional network airline. 

We are bullish on the airline industry, and we believe that with 

our cost structure, customer orientation, and operational capability, 

Alaska is well positioned to take advantage of an improving industry. Warren Buffett, who in the past famously derided investing in 

airlines, now invests nearly $10 billion in the industry. That says 

something. 

The industry has changed a lot in the last 10 to 15 years. The 

pervasive bankruptcies and consolidation we have dealt with have 

been painful and challenging, but the industry as a whole is now 

in a different and healthier place. Airlines are investing in their facilities, people, and products in order to win new customers. 

For example, Alaska recently launched premium class service, 

providing our guests more leg room and amenities as an option. We 

are enhancing in-flight entertainment and connectivity options. We 

are adding popular new local food and beverage options. And we 

are taking steps to make our industry-leading mileage plan even 

better. Beyond these areas, we are also making major capital investments in things like new seats, space-saving bins, and airport 

improvements. 

Despite improvements in the industry, it is more important than 

ever that aviation policy supports vigorous competition. Today, the 

7 

four largest airlines comprise more than 80 percent of the domestic 

market, whereas 10 to 15 years ago it took nine airlines to make 

up that much of the market. 

As you consider aviation policy issues, we ask you to embrace 

policies to keep the industry vibrant, including enhancing the ability for smaller carriers to gain access to constrained airports and 

enhancing our ability to share feed traffic with larger airlines. 

On that point, there are different perspectives on the Gulf Carrier Open Skies issue. As a smaller airline without a global network, Alaska needs to partner with airlines from around the globe 

to have a chance of competing with U.S. airlines that have a global 

footprint and that can offer a one-stop shop to customers needing 

global access. We believe it is imperative that the U.S. Government 

do zero harm to the vibrant U.S. Open Skies policy. 

The subject of this hearing is about building 21st-century infrastructure in America. Alaska believes it is imperative to speed up 

modernization of air traffic control to deal with increasing congestion and delays and to bring it into the modern era. To be fair, 

modern GPS technology is used today by most airlines for the en 

route portion of flights, but once an airplane starts its descent, efficient operations are typically interrupted by the use of 1950s-era 

radar-based manual procedures. 

Herein lies a big opportunity. We need to modernize the system 

to connect the en route navigation structure with the arrival and 

approach phases of a flight. 

Alaska Airlines is deeply familiar with this technology. In the 

mid-1990s, we pioneered what is called required navigation performance, which are GPS-based approaches and which are a key 

building block of NextGen. However, today, more than 20 years 

later, we use these RNP approaches for just 4 percent of our approaches nationwide. 

We believe that in the future airplanes should not be vectored 

left and right for spacing and engines shifted from idle to powered 

as airplanes descend and then level off in a stairstep approach to 

the runway. Instead, aircraft should arrive at a specific waypoint 

in the sky at a predetermined point in time to provide for spacing, 

and they should then begin a continuous glide at idle power, following a precise curving flight path down to the runway. This will 

allow more airplanes into the system. It will materially reduce 

noise, fuel consumption, travel time delays, and environmental 

emissions. 

As a pilot myself, I can tell you that this country’s air traffic controllers manage the safest system in the world, and the FAA is full 

of talented professionals who have made progress with NextGen. 

However, under current governance and funding, we run a real 

risk that demand for airspace is going to rise at a rate that is more 

rapid than our rate of technology innovation, worsening delays. 

While we understand ATC reform may be a topic of future hearings, and while we know that there are numerous viewpoints on 

this subject, we would like to go on record with our belief that ATC 

reform, including the separation of ATC operations into an independent, nonprofit entity, as most other industrialized countries 

have done, is needed, and such a change will allow innovation and 

technology deployment to flourish. 

8 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak with you 

today. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you. 

Mr. Childs, you are recognized. 

Mr. CHILDS. Good morning, Chairman LoBiondo, Ranking Member Larsen, Chairman Shuster, Ranking Member DeFazio, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. I am Chip Childs, president and CEO of SkyWest, Inc., which is the largest regional airline in the world. 

SkyWest, Inc. owns and operates two regional airlines, SkyWest 

Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines. Combined, these entities complete more than 3,000 flights per day and carry 53 million passengers a year. This includes service to more than 250 cities in 

North America, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean. 

On behalf of SkyWest, ExpressJet, and more than 18,000 employees, I appreciate the opportunity to be here today and offer testimony about the importance of the regional airline industry. 

Regional airlines operate under parts 121 and 135 and generally 

utilize aircraft with fewer than 100 seats in partnership with major 

airlines. As such, we are held to the same safety standards as 

mainline carriers. We treat Federal safety regulations as the floor, 

not the ceiling, and take pride in meeting and exceeding these 

standards. 

We believe in one level of safety for all passenger carriers, and 

our safety culture drives everything at SkyWest and ExpressJet. To 

that end, we utilize advanced technology and innovative safety programs. Our flight crews and mechanics are some of the most experienced and thoroughly trained in the entire airline industry, with 

training programs that are lauded by the FAA. 

We are part of the regional airline industry, which is by no 

means small. In 2015, regional airlines operated 44 percent of the 

Nation’s departures and safely carried 157 million passengers on 

nearly 4 million departures, about 11,000 departures a day. 

We play a critical role in the aviation industry by connecting 

communities large and small to the global air transportation network. We fly as Delta Connection, American Eagle, United Express, and in partnership with Alaska Airlines. We share our majors’ codes and have their names, color schemes, and logos painted 

on our aircraft. 

Regional airlines are job creators. Our industry employs more 

than 59,000 employees. Among these employees are approximately 

15,000 flight attendants and 20,000 pilots, and our industry needs 

more. While SkyWest has been able to stay fully staffed with qualified pilots, our industry has been hit by a growing pilot shortage. 

We are honored that the major airlines recruit heavily from the 

regional industry, but this honor comes with consequences. According to university studies, major airlines will hire more than 18,000 

pilots in the next 3 years. That is nearly the size of today’s active 

regional airline pilot workforce. Within a decade, cumulative demand for pilots is forecast to reach 50,000 pilots. 

Overall the shortfall of commercial airline pilots is forecast to 

reach 15,000 by 2026. Using an industry standard of roughly 10 pilots per aircraft, a shortfall of this magnitude would necessitate 

9 

parking 1,500 aircraft. For perspective, this number corresponds to 

roughly two-thirds of the regional airline fleet in operation today. 

Thanks to the leadership of this committee, Congress gave FAA 

tools to address these concerns. Recognizing the high value of 

structured training, Congress authorized the FAA to approve alternate pathways for first officer qualification, allowing specific academic training courses to be credited toward a portion of total 

flight-hours where the Administrator determines that these academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the 

pilot to fully comply with the flight-hours. 

Pilots following these approved pathways hold restricted privileges ATP [Airline Transport Pilot] certificates and may serve as 

part 121 airline first officers. These R–ATP pathways create a 

much higher level of safety and are well supported by data. 

Although Congress gave the FAA the authority to approve R– 

ATP pathways, the agency has taken a narrow view of its authority 

to grant additional pathways outside of military and degree program institutions. We urge Congress to prompt the FAA to use its 

existing authority to authorize additional R–ATP pathways. 

We could also help fill the shortfall with student loans. One of 

the single greatest deterrents facing new pilots is cost. Aspiring pilots can spend as much as $100,000 to $150,000 on a flight training 

path to commercial airlines, but the return on investment on these 

training dollars exceeds that spent on teachers, lawyers, and even 

doctors. 

While we seek ways to reduce costs and offer tuition reimbursement, scholarships, and other incentives, Congress can help by 

backing loans to these students to achieve their dreams and meet 

the pilot shortfall. 

Mr. Chairman and Ranking Members and distinguished members of the subcommittee, it is my pleasure to be here today, and 

I look forward to taking your questions at the conclusion of the 

panel. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you. 

Mr. Hete. 

Mr. HETE. Chairman LoBiondo, Ranking Member Larsen, and 

members of the subcommittee, I am privileged to serve as the 

president and CEO of Air Transport Services Group. Thank you for 

the opportunity to highlight our company’s vision for all-cargo aviation in the 21st century. 

ATSG wholly owns two airlines, ABX Air, Inc. and Air Transport 

International, each independently certificated by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The company’s airlines separately offer a 

combination of aircraft, crews, maintenance, and insurance services, commonly referred to as ACMI services. ABX operates Boeing 

767 freighter aircraft, while ATI operates 767s, 757 freighters, and 

757 combi aircraft. Combi aircraft are dedicated to the U.S. military and are capable of carrying passengers and cargo containers 

on the main deck. The airlines can conduct cargo operations worldwide. 

The air cargo industry is unique compared with other industry 

users. We have a different business model and operational characteristics. So it is important to recognize our segment of the aviation 

industry when making policy decisions. Today, I would like to 

10 

share with the committee some of the challenges and concerns we 

have and how they affect our cargo airline operations. 

We at ATSG have seen a great deal of change take place in the 

air cargo industry over the past 2 years. With stiff competition in 

the industry, removing specific regulatory burdens have the potential to pay off in the form of operational efficiencies, which will undoubtedly improve our costs and competitive abilities, as well as for 

our primary customers, the U.S. military, DHL, and Amazon. 

There are a few key topics of concern for our industry that I 

would like to share with you. Over the past few years, a debate has 

been waged over whether cargo pilots should continue to be regulated under the existing part 121 rules or whether they should be 

subject to newer, part 117 rules. The Federal Aviation Administration, after no less than three separate reviews, each time correctly 

found that the cargo pilots should be regulated under part 121. 

These rules work for our industry. There has been no sound evidence to suggest a move to a one-size-fits-all rule would improve 

safety for all cargo pilots, and this makes sense as the air cargo 

industry is inherently different from the passenger carrier industry. As I mentioned earlier, ATI operates the 757 combi, which carries passengers, and those flights are operated under the part 117 

rules. 

If ATSG’s airlines were forced to comply with the 117 rules, we 

would have to hire more pilots, which would be a boon for the pilots union, but would allow for even less flying time for each pilot, 

potentially affecting their proficiency. Changes in flight and duty 

time rules that apply to all cargo carriers is a bad idea, and doing 

so could actually make our operations less safe and put our pilots 

at risk. 

At ATSG’s airlines, we provide more and longer flight crew rest 

opportunities in our cargo operations than our passenger counterparts. Most importantly, our pilots average 40 to 45 flight-hours 

per month and are usually point-to-point, while passenger carrier 

pilots fly approximately 60 hours each month and include many 

segments per day. Our pilots are also only scheduled for duty 14 

to 16 days out of every month, and in many cases that includes 

weekend layovers. 

Former Administrator Randy Babbitt said it best at an ALPA 

Safety Conference: ‘‘In rulemaking, not only does one size not fit 

all, but it’s unsafe to think that it can.’’ 

With regards to the air transport of lithium batteries, ATSG supports the promulgation of tough and internationally consistent regulations governing the air cargo transportation of lithium batteries, 

as well as stringent enforcement of those regulations around the 

world. 

The key issue here for our company is consistency. We can simply not have a patchwork of international lithium battery transportation standards. Harmonization avoids confusion among shippers, 

carriers, and others in the supply chain while maximizing safety. 

Regarding the Open Skies issue, I share the opinion of the Cargo 

Airline Association that opposes altering the country’s policy of expanding international opportunities through the negotiation of 

Open Skies agreements with trading partners. The all-cargo carriers have global networks with destinations all over the world, and 

11 

we rely on the access that Open Skies agreements allow us to provide time-definite delivery of high-value goods. 

Unlike the passenger carriers, all-cargo carriers do not have code 

share agreements or worldwide alliances and depend on the beyond 

rights inherent in Open Skies agreements to provide global service. 

Therefore, we oppose any attempt to jeopardize our existing Open 

Skies agreements. 

Finally, one of the biggest impediments to NextGen may not in 

fact be funding or transfer of ATC to a private entity as many have 

talked about, but rather aircraft noise. With new, more fuel-efficient flight paths for aircraft being implemented as part of the airspace redesigned for NextGen, new communities are exposed to 

noise that previously were not. Further, as a cargo operator we fly 

a substantial number of nighttime operations, and any call to impose nighttime flight restrictions would be problematic. These 

issues tend to be local-level problems that then get elevated and 

then in time become congressional problems. 

While a lot of advances have been made in the area of aircraft 

noise, and a significant decrease in those exposed to noise has been 

achieved, this issue will continue to prove challenging for both the 

FAA and operators like us. 

In summary, I would oppose any effort to impose new aircraft 

noise restrictions that may undermine our national aviation and 

airport system or inhibit the implementation of NextGen modernization projects, which are crucial for the efficiencies of the future of air transport. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today, 

and discuss the issues important to ATSG, its airlines, and the future of the airline cargo industry. I look forward to answering any 

questions you may have. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Nelson, you are recognized. 

Ms. NELSON. Thank you Chairman LoBiondo, Congressman 

Larsen, and members of the committee. We appreciate the opportunity to testify today about maintaining the safest, globally competitive U.S. aviation system in the world. As international president of the Association of Flight Attendants—CWA, representing 

nearly 50,000 flight attendants at 19 mainline, niche, regional, 

charter, and international airlines, I am proud to bring the expert 

voice from the aircraft cabin to this discussion. 

It is fitting that on International Women’s Day, our union that 

was founded by strong women and which remains largely a workforce of women would have a platform to testify in the United 

States Congress. Our members are dutifully performing their work 

as aviation’s first responders around the world today. 

But aviation would come to an immediate halt without the contributions of women in aviation, as there is a call for a day without 

women. We should recognize these women for the work that they 

do in aviation, and we appreciate the opportunity to testify on 

issues of equality in aviation today. 

My written testimony addresses four key issues flight attendants 

need: proper rest to do our work, an orderly and secure cabin free 

of voice calls, a reality check on the disparate compensation at reVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:00 May 19, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\115\AV\3-8-20~1\24655.TXT JEAN
12 

gional airlines, and the enforcement of Open Skies agreements to 

keep global competition on a level playing field. 

AFA continues to advocate for equal rest with our flight deck 

counterparts, and thanks to over 100,000 flight attendants and our 

supporters speaking out and the action of this committee, a 10- 

hour minimum rest requirement and the implementation of a Fatigue Risk Management Plan for flight attendants was included in 

H.R. 4441 last year. We look forward to inclusion of this language 

in the base bill this year. 

Our job as aviation’s first responders and the last line of defense 

in aviation has only become more challenging in recent years with 

staffing at minimums and aircraft cabins fuller than ever. The FAA 

rest minimum for flight attendants is 8 hours, even after a 14-hour 

duty day. During our rest breaks, flight attendants exit the airport, 

eat dinner, check into and out of hotels, and report for duty after 

returning to the airport and transiting security. The reality is we 

only have an opportunity for 4 or 5 hours of rest. 

Studies commissioned by Congress show we need more rest. We 

are thankful to Chairman LoBiondo, Congressman Capuano, Ranking Members DeFazio and Larsen, and the members of this committee for including 10 hours’ rest in the Fatigue Risk Management Plan in the FAA reauthorization bill. 

Our industry is the safest in the world because of the work of 

the stakeholders represented today, the oversight of Congress, and 

our airlines’ ability to compete on a level playing field with any 

other aircraft operator in the world. Our union is gravely concerned 

that this is all at risk due to the failure to enforce Open Skies 

agreements. 

The U.S. has negotiated 120 Open Skies agreements with the intention of providing increased travel and trade, enhancing productivity, and spurring high-quality job opportunities and economic 

growth. The majority of these agreements are working. However, 

failure of the previous administration to enforce Open Skies agreements with the Gulf States, means Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar 

Airways are distorting the market with over $50 billion in subsidies from their governments. 

We can compete with any airline in the world, but competing 

with the treasuries of their governments is unsustainable and 

threatens to choke out U.S. carriers, ultimately destroying consumer choice as well. 

Every route ceded is a cost of 1,500 U.S. jobs. If these airlines 

cannot play by the rules, then we must consider canceling these 

agreements that are being violated. 

In addition, the Obama administration made a grave mistake 

when it approved the foreign air carrier permit of Norwegian Air 

International. NAI violates article 17 bis of the EU/U.S. Open 

Skies agreement by setting up an Irish subsidiary to capitalize on 

less restrictive labor laws. NAI’s deliberate effort to undermine 

Norway’s strong labor protections violates Open Skies and sets in 

motion a downward spiral for U.S. aviation and 300,000 U.S. jobs. 

This committee is uniquely positioned to take up this issue and 

stop the expansion of the approval of foreign air carrier permits for 

airlines operating according to this flag-of-convenience model. 

13 

Aviation, born in the U.S., is perhaps one of the greatest symbols 

of our freedom. Our members and our passengers fly to every corner of the earth when only some can dream of crossing borders. 

Our airlines are staffed with those who come from service in our 

military, and we proudly transport our military around the world, 

most wonderfully to bring them home. 

The U.S. aviation industry accounts for 5 percent of U.S. gross 

domestic product, contributes $1.6 trillion in total economic activity, and supports nearly 11 million jobs. It is the symbol of American progress, innovation, and opportunity, and we must protect it. 

I understand with gut-wrenching firsthand experience that safety, security, and economic strength are paramount for an industry 

that continues to capture the imagination and attention of the 

world. As a Boston-based flight attendant on September 11, 2001, 

I lost my dear friends. 

But I know too that in the midst of our grief and our resolve to 

keep our airlines flying, we lost over 100,000 aviation jobs, took 

massive pay cuts, lost our pensions, and now spend more time 

away from our families with staffing cut to minimum. Aviation 

workers had to face the harsh realities of a post-9/11 world, and 

so have our families. 

But in the long run, any aviation business model that seeks to 

operate solely on the backs of the people who make our airlines fly 

is not only inhumane, it is a threat to our safety. September 11 is 

not the exception to the rule for our charge as stakeholders, including, with deep respect, the Colgan Air families who are here today, 

and together with your careful oversight. 

It is forever the reality that a breach in aviation security and a 

wounded U.S. aviation industry is a threat to the very freedom of 

our Nation and the prosperity of every community across the 

United States. 

Thank you, Chairman LoBiondo, Congressman Larsen, and Congressman DeFazio, for serving as the strongest imaginable champions for our vital American industry. Flight attendants appreciate 

you and the members of this committee for the opportunity to testify here today, for your oversight, and for the protection of good 

American jobs. I look forward to answering your questions. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Leocha. 

Mr. LEOCHA. Thank you for giving passengers a seat at this 

hearing. My name is Charlie Leocha. I am president of Travelers 

United, the country’s largest travel advocacy group. We work intimately with both Government and travel stakeholders here in 

Washington. 

Anyone who has flown recently in the back of a plane knows that 

passengers have far less personal space, planes are flying fuller 

than ever, leg room and seat width is being reduced, and ancillary 

fees are exploding. My testimony today focuses on a list of changes 

that have developed over the past decade in the aviation marketplace. 

Number one, common carriers. Airlines are common carriers. 

There are centuries of settled tort law. Pricing of common carrier 

services is considered public information. It used to be nailed up 

14 

next to the door of their offices. It has been that way for thousands 

of years. 

The airlines, however, decided since 2008 to publicly release only 

partial pricing. Today it is impossible to effectively comparison 

shop for airfares and fees. This has stopped IT development in its 

tracks. 

Once the full airfare and fee data is released, IT experts can expect new shopping engines that will allow passengers to comparison shop for airline travel. Don’t tell the airlines, but they will 

make far more money selling their products throughout their total 

distribution network. 

Public pricing. Once an airline decides to work with travel agencies, their pricing should become public, and it always should be 

under common carriers. Airlines should not be permitted to pick 

and choose where their airfares and fees appear. Their prices are 

public information. 

Reservation system outages. These are under the complete control of the airlines. Airlines should not be allowed to treat them 

like acts of God. Bizarrely, passengers are being punished for the 

failures of the airlines. 

When there is an airline IT system failure, the airlines are responsible and should make their customers whole. Full refunds 

should be made available, and all airline tickets should be valid for 

at least 1 year from the date of the disruption. Plus, additional expenses should be covered. 

Next, DOT should reevaluate the antitrust immunity and airline 

alliance rules. Originally, these grants were developed to create a 

better travel experience for passengers. Today, the airlines are 

using these DOT-provided grants to stop competition. 

As smaller airlines, like Alaska, JetBlue, Southwest, and Hawaiian, begin to look at new markets, they are being faced with coordinated efforts by large alliances to deny them useful takeoff and 

landing slots at international airports. Airlines simply cannot compete without takeoff and landing slots. And without competition, 

consumers suffer, prices rise. 

Open Skies treaties. These have been the bedrock of expansion 

for the U.S. aviation industry since the early 1990s. Today, these 

treaties are providing consumers some hope for competition and 

lower transatlantic and international airfares. Middle Eastern carriers, Etihad, Emirates, and Qatar, are serving a part of the world 

that was virtually ignored by the U.S. carriers for years, and lowcost carriers, like Wow and Norwegian, are finally forcing Delta, 

American, and United to lower transatlantic airfares. 

Better service to the fastest growing areas of the world and lower 

transatlantic airfares are both enhanced by Open Skies treaties. 

Next, airport taxes. As head of Travelers United, I have never 

met a traveler who thought they should pay more taxes for using 

an airport. Any increase in airport funding should come from the 

surrounding municipalities that benefit from the economics of the 

airport. Passengers are already paying their fair share. Proposed 

airport fee increases may result in more than $60 of fees being 

added to a ticket before passengers even spend $1 on airfare, and 

that dollar is taxed another 7.5 percent. 

15 

And finally, this one should be easy: Educate travelers about 

their rights. Congress doesn’t have to pass any bills. DOT doesn’t 

need any rulemakings. The only thing we need from our Government is the courage to let passengers know their rights regarding 

compensation. And there are only two of them. One, passengers are 

due compensation for lost, damaged, and delayed luggage up to 

$3,500. And when passengers are bumped, they can get compensation up to $1,350. That is it. End of domestic passenger compensations. 

I look forward to any questions. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you very much. 

Mr. DeFazio, you are recognized. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

So we have heard from two people mention Etihad. Let’s talk 

about that for a second. H.E. Sultan Bin Saeed Al Mansouri is 

head of the aviation authority, H.E. Eng. Mohamed Mubarak Al 

Mazrouei is head of the airline, H.E. Eng. Awaidha Murshed Al 

Marar runs the airport, and the Government is dumping massive 

amounts of money into a losing proposition. 

And it isn’t just that they are providing service to parts of the 

world that were underserved. Emirates is flying planes to places 

like Milan, Italy, and using their Fifth Freedom Right to come 

across the Atlantic. 

Simple question: Do you think we should allow a State-owned enterprise in a monarchy dictatorship, do you think that is fair competition for our airlines, just because you get a little bit off the ticket? 

Yes or no, Mr. Leocha? Do you think it is fair. 

Mr. LEOCHA. Well, if what you are—— 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Yes or no? 

Mr. LEOCHA. If what you are saying is true, no. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Yes, it is true. OK. Thank you. 

Mr. LEOCHA. OK. I don’t—— 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you. Thank you. 

Mr. Tilden? So do you want to be ultimately competing—I mean, 

you want to partner with a State-owned enterprise, but what happens if a State-owned enterprise starts competing with you? 

Mr. TILDEN. What I would say about this, Alaska Airlines is a 

domestic airline operating in the U.S., but we have treaties with 

these other countries—— 

Mr. DEFAZIO. I know, but my question, do you think the United 

States of America should have policies that require our capitalist, 

privately owned companies to compete with State-owned enterprises from dictatorships that are being financed in that manner? 

Mr. TILDEN. I think every country in the world sets up their airline industry a little differently. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. All right. So you are not going to—— 

Mr. TILDEN. Well, what I will say is that all these airlines should 

be required to comply with the treaties. I do believe that. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Well, I don’t think the treaty—you know, most of 

our trade policy is a failure, and that is another example of it. 

Now, we just had a panel last week, Mr. Leocha, of airports talking about their needs. You are opposed to an increase in the passenger facility charge. 

16 

Now, I will give you an example. Denver was in to see me. They 

are doing everything they can, including a P3 to redo their main 

terminal, which needs to be redone to tremendously facilitate the 

movement of passengers through security and also will provide 

much more shopping environment and all that kind of stuff. 

So they are using P3s. They have got a PFC. They are bonded 

out. You are saying they shouldn’t be allowed to increase their 

PFC, but they have a dire need to extend their terminals to accommodate additional traffic so people won’t be sitting on the ground 

waiting to get to a gate. So you are just saying you are against 

PFC increases no matter how well they are merited? 

Mr. LEOCHA. I am saying that we don’t need PFC increases. 

There are other ways to increase the money for the airports. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Well, excuse me, sir, but they are using a P3. They 

are getting a huge benefit from that. They are charging the airlines 

fees. They are doing everything else. And the question is, at some 

point you are bonded out, and what are you going to do when you 

are bonded out? 

I was the Democratic author of PFCs because I use the Eugene 

Airport. Eugene had to do municipal bonds to expand the airport. 

I didn’t pay a cent. I don’t live in Eugene. Now, you are just saying, 

well, the municipality benefits, and I live in the next town over, 

which you can hardly distinguish, but I shouldn’t pay anything. 

Mr. LEOCHA. Those are questions which need to be raised by the 

localities and municipalities serviced by the airports. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Well, I raised them 20 years ago when we established the PFC, which I think is the fairest way to have a user feebased system. And there are all sorts of restrictions on the PFCs. 

There are no abuses of the PFCs. It is all benefitting the flying 

public. 

So I find your adamant opposition—I don’t like the Greyhound 

bus experience, which I find in a number of airports, that are constrained from making improvements, and the PFC is a fair way to 

make it. And in the case of Denver, the municipality isn’t necessarily benefitting from all the people who are just changing 

planes in Denver, and that is what some of the terminals are targeted toward. What is the benefit there? So I just find your adamant opposition very problematic. 

And then, finally, I did not want to get into ATC today, but if 

you could hold up the chart. 

[The chart follows:] 

17 


Insert offset folio 9 here 24655.009
18 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Just again, Mr. Tilden, this is the organizational 

chart, because there is a little problem in privatizing in the United 

States of America. The Germans had to change their Constitution. 

We are not changing ours. 

So we prohibit private entities from doing anything that affects 

competition. So that means if they want to increase taxes, obviously it has to go to the Secretary. If they want to change flight 

paths, it has to go to the Secretary. If they want to change 

NextGen procedures, it goes to the Secretary. If they want to 

change anything else regarding ATC, it has to go to the Secretary. 

If they decide to close an air traffic control tower, contract tower, 

et cetera, it has to go to the Secretary. If the Secretary disagrees, 

then we go to court. 

I don’t find that to be a more efficient system. Plus, you are 

cleaving the FAA in half, and certification, which is vital to manufacturers, stays over here, and, yes, we move ATO over here. I believe there are other ways to resolve longstanding issues, and I 

didn’t really want to get into this today, but since you raised it, I 

had to say that. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you, Mr. DeFazio. 

Is Mr. Davis back yet? 

Mr. Gibbs. 

Mr. GIBBS. Thank you, Chairman. 

Mr. Hete, welcome, fellow Buckeye. I hear you are from Ohio, 

from Clinton County. I just wanted to recognize you, fellow Buckeye. 

I guess the first question is to anybody on the panel that wants 

to talk about it. You know, we have seen, we had a downturn in 

the industry and the industry has bounced back and doing well 

now, and we are seeing things turn around a lot. And we have also 

seen quite a few mergers in recent years. 

And I guess my first question is, how does the capacity issue 

interact with the regional carriers and the big carriers for slots and 

just airports in general? How does that interaction work? So anybody that wants to try to answer that, I appreciate it. 

Mr. CHILDS. I will take a shot at it, if I could. Our business 

model that we have at regional carriers, to be clear, what we do 

is, as in my opening statement, we fly for the major carriers, and 

we are under contract with them to where we get paid a block 

hour, which is a flight-hour basis to fly the routes that they want 

us to fly. 

We do not have any material say in the slots or how we are 

scheduled in the big cities. That is completely up to the major carriers that make all those decisions for us. We just go where they 

want us to go and make sure we coordinate it and do it in a very 

safe and effective manner. But we don’t have any say relative to 

how we are utilized in those big areas. 

Mr. GIBBS. Mr. Tilden, I see you are biting at the bit there. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yeah, I think this is an interesting time in our country. These airports were built 40, 50 years ago. In some cases a 

runway was added 10 or 15 years ago. But facilities are constrained. I think almost every airport in Alaska is in significant— 

19 

every big airport, LAX, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, is significantly constrained. I just think that is a fact of our future. 

To points that others have made, I do think this is a time for 

substantial investment in infrastructure. I think folks are doing 

this. We are on board with that. I think the industry is a lot 

healthier today than it was 10 or 15 years ago, so airlines are better able to support these very substantial capital programs. 

And I think airspace is a part of that. So we need more capacity 

in the airspace. We need more capacity at the airport itself. 

Mr. GIBBS. That is the other part of my question, capacity. So we 

have got the issue with runways, getting passengers through the 

terminals, and then issue with airspace, so they are obviously 

intertwined. So if we ever get the NextGen adopted and moving on, 

does that solve that airspace issue? 

Mr. TILDEN. That will go a long way to helping. There are constraints, airspace, runways, terminal gates, even roadways in front 

of the airports, there are constraints sort of at every step of the 

process. But airspace is certainly a big one. 

Mr. GIBBS. Go ahead. 

Ms. NELSON. Congressman Gibbs, I think it is also important to 

recognize the interplay between the regionals and the mainlines for 

the people who make the airplanes fly. As Mr. Childs testified, the 

regional airlines provide 45 percent of the lift in the domestic market, but the pilots and flight attendants are also being paid at 45 

percent the rate, even though the same passengers are buying the 

same tickets and expecting to get to the same destinations. So it 

is an important piece within a part of all this discussion. 

Mr. GIBBS. Since you brought that up, Ms. Nelson, I saw, it must 

have been about a year ago, an article in a newspaper, and I was 

really taken aback by what they were saying the salaries were for 

regional personnel. And as I recall, I think, I don’t know if it was 

a pilot or the copilot, could be around low $20,000 annual pay. Is 

that correct? 

Ms. NELSON. That is correct. It is insufficient, and it is part of 

the reason that you have twice as many pilots with certificates to 

fly today as are performing the jobs today. If we can increase those 

wages and provide a living wage for these people, we will encourage people to enter the market. 

Mr. GIBBS. So you just said there are twice as many pilots that 

are available, they are just not, because they have got to find other 

jobs to support their families. Is that what you are saying? 

Ms. NELSON. Correct. 

Mr. GIBBS. OK. Anybody want to respond to that? 

Mr. CHILDS. Yeah, I would love to respond to that. I think that 

there has been a tremendous move and shift in compensation in 

the last couple years with pilots and some flight attendants as well. 

And it is important to note, as we went through the statistics early 

on in my testimony, and in my written testimony, we are the only 

source of travel for over 60 percent of the airports that we serve. 

We have never really come out of service at SkyWest or 

ExpressJet due to a lack-of-pilot scenario. We have come out because it didn’t make economic sense. Now, other carriers outside of 

us do have a very, very difficult time, and all of us see a very sigVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:00 May 19, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\115\AV\3-8-20~1\24655.TXT JEAN
20 

nificant pilot shortage on us today, and a lot of people believe that 

there is a very strong inventory out there. 

I can tell you from personal experience, because we hire them 

and we interview them and we train them, that that is absolutely 

not the case. We are deeply concerned about the statistics as it is 

moving forward in the next 3 years. There are a lot of retirements 

at the mainline carriers, and there simply is not enough backfilling 

them as of today. So we need to do some things to make sure that 

we fix that. 

Mr. GIBBS. Thank you, Chairman. My time has expired. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Larsen. 

Mr. LARSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Tilden, in your written testimony you discussed RNAV [area 

navigation], instrument procedures and such, and said nationwide 

it is 4 percent. For your flights, it is about 4 percent. And Sea-Tac, 

do you have a percentage? 

Mr. TILDEN. I do not have that percentage with me. Despite 

Greener Skies, it isn’t 25 percent even. 

Mr. LARSEN. Oh, yeah? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yeah. It is less than that. 

Mr. LARSEN. And what steps, either nationally or even at SeaTac, could be done to increase that to something higher than it is? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yeah. The situation we have is that these Greener 

Skies or RNP [required navigation performance] approaches have 

to be approved for every approach to every runway end at every 

airport. So Sea-Tac there are three runways, so that means there 

are six runway ends, and there are two or three approaches to each 

runway. And there is noise—one of the other gentlemen spoke to 

noise—noise is a big part of the review process. The FAA takes 

time to develop the procedure. 

So what we have is a one-by-one approval of each of those approaches. And I just think somehow we need a much more rapid— 

in my own way of thinking about this, there should sort of be a default view that these approaches, this technology is better than 

what we have today. Even though the noise may be a little bit, it 

will be an engine at idle power, and with GPS it will be the same 

track every day. It may hit one house more than the current system, but there will be way less noise with this new technology than 

we have with the old. So some sort of fast-tracking of those approaches I think would help us. 

Mr. LARSEN. Yeah. So it is not just a matter of different approaches. It is also in how you operate that approach as well, is 

what you are saying? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. LARSEN. If you have the same kind of approaches, but we 

still do the stairstep in and out, we are not really taking full advantage of the technology. 

Mr. TILDEN. Correct. Correct. But I think in the perfect world, 

these approaches are designed so that the airplane at altitude, 

38,000 feet, it goes to idle power, and it stays there until maybe 

a little bit of a true-up just at the end before it touches down. 

Mr. LARSEN. Just don’t tell your passengers that. 

Mr. TILDEN. Safety is number one above everything else. 

Mr. LARSEN. Yeah, I know. Just flew in yesterday. 

21 

Ms. Nelson, could you give a little more detail on flight attendant 

fatigue and why it is an important issue to you all? 

Ms. NELSON. Yes, I appreciate that very much. Flight attendant 

fatigue is something that we have been working on addressing for 

the last 30 years. The first duty and rest regulations went into 

place in 1994, and they were essentially a dart thrown at a dart 

board just to get something on paper. 

Then-Chairman Norman Mineta suggested that there should be 

a 10-hour free-from-duty rest. And the reason for that is what we 

have seen through the fatigue studies, seven fatigue studies commissioned by Congress that show that there needs to be more rest 

in order to avoid fatigue. If you can imagine, that was the conclusion. 

And so, in order to get that proper rest, because of the duties 

that have to be completed during that rest time as well, it is important to have the 10 hours’ rest that is equal with our flight deck 

counterparts that is now in place. 

And we are adamant to get this done, especially with the increased duties and less staffing that flight attendants have on 

board, with more opportunity for error with fewer of us handling 

more passengers. It is simply unacceptable. We have got to address 

this fatigue issue and have equal rest with our flight deck counterparts. 

Mr. LARSEN. Thanks. 

Mr. Hete, I believe the current administration pulled back a rule 

from FMCSA [Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration] on 

lithium, transporting lithium batteries. But I understand you support the ICAO’s [International Civil Aviation Organization’s] work 

to improve the standards for transporting lithium batteries. Do you 

have a consistent pattern about how you transport lithium? 

Mr. HETE. Yeah, I think it is critical, because if you look at our 

customers, DHL, for example, everything that we handle for them 

throughout their North American network is an international ship, 

either originating or destinating in an international environment. 

And so if you have a mixed bag of rules and you don’t have harmonization of those rules, you have an exposure to a shipment getting 

into the system without following prescribed procedures, and no 

one wants to see that happen. So it has got to be consistent across 

the board. 

Mr. LARSEN. Yeah, thanks. 

Mr. Chairman, I will yield back and let someone else have a 

chance. Thanks. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you. 

Mr. LaMalfa. 

Mr. LAMALFA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Childs, thank you for appearing, and for the whole panel 

here today. I am from far northern California, where—including 

airports such as Chico and Redding—until 2014, Chico had service 

from SkyWest. 

And I know that regional airlines do face unique challenges, et 

cetera. And some of the testimony I heard from the panel here that 

they can operate between the smaller airports, but this is also at 

the behest of what the parent airline that you are contracting with 

requires. 

22 

So is it different to operate just between the smaller airports or 

when you have to tie into a larger one where the major aircraft and 

the parent airline is operating? Is there a difference in the way you 

can operate that way? Do you have more freedom to set rates or 

types of service, numbers of trips, et cetera, like, say, Chico to Redding or Redding to Oregon, places like that? 

Mr. CHILDS. Yeah. So let me go back, because we miss serving 

Chico, honestly. And from our perspective on how that happens, 

there are some models that we do under a prorate arrangement, 

where we do have some freedoms to do some things. That only constitutes about 10 percent of our particular model, and many regional carriers don’t even have that model. 

So back historically, when it was with Chico, we enjoyed great 

service there. We did it with a turboprop, a 30-seat Brasilia. And 

as we continued to evolve as a company, we started to take larger 

aircraft, and as we continued to execute on some good strong compensation models with our people. Unfortunately, what happened 

was that it did not make economic sense and we couldn’t do it profitably there. 

So that technically was one of our decisions that we also made 

with our partner. We were doing it with United at the time. And 

that was one at which the cost was prohibitive because of certain 

elements of our business model where that service was—— 

Mr. LAMALFA. Understood. We had some airport representatives, 

as was mentioned earlier, last week, and some of that tied into the 

conversation. 

So if a 30-seat turboprop plane, as you mentioned and they 

talked about last week also, those are being phased out, what is 

the size of the aircraft, the more regional jets? Is that the volume 

part of the reason that it is priced out on more regional airports 

like that? 

Mr. CHILDS. Yeah, that is exactly—— 

Mr. LAMALFA. Sixty, seventy passengers, is that what you are 

dealing with? 

Mr. CHILDS. Yeah. So the majority of our fleet is a 50-seat jet. 

And we now are taking more new aircraft that are at 76 seats with 

first-class configuration and longer range and that type of stuff. So 

that is the trend. That is what the manufacturers are making. 

You bring up an excellent point, because there are cities that, 

from our economic model, we can’t serve anymore. We have gotten 

bigger, and certainly, given our compensation strategy with that, 

we can’t serve with a 30-seat aircraft anymore. There are a lot of 

other carriers that can, and they are the ones that are struggling 

with attracting pilots and they are the ones that are struggling 

with some of the things that they can do to actually execute on 

those plans. 

So, unfortunately, Congressman, your city is an interesting case 

study about what our situation is, because our economic model is 

very volatile and it is one which it can’t bear a lot of fluctuation 

relative to costs. And that is kind of what we have to work with 

within our industry. 

Mr. LAMALFA. Are the facilities themselves part of the issue, 

being able to handle, versus the turboprop aircraft the jet, the 

23 

jetway, or what are some of the issues with that that the facilities 

might need more upgrades on to accommodate a newer—— 

Mr. CHILDS. There are a lot. If this industry continues to evolve 

the way it is, away from turboprops to jets the same way that we 

did, there are a lot of small airports that need to make airport adjustments—longer runway, wider runway, emergency equipment, 

those types of things—to accommodate the jet. 

We are working in no less than 10 cities since we pulled out with 

turboprops and want to go back in with 50-seat aircraft. If it is economically viable, that the communities need to upgrade their airports and their facilities to accommodate a 50-seat jet, which would 

be the next step for most of these communities. 

Mr. LAMALFA. Well, Chico, for example, has a 6,700-foot runway 

and I have seen 737s take off there. So that is probably not the 

issue there, right? 

Mr. CHILDS. Not in Chico, no. 

Mr. LAMALFA. OK. Is there anything that Department of Transportation regulation-wise that are causing any kind of imposition 

to be able to do what you need to do, either on the regional basis 

or in its integration with the larger carriers or larger airports? 

Mr. CHILDS. And I don’t know if there is anything that the Department of Transportation specifically can do, but in my opening 

statements we talked a lot about some solutions to keep the regional airline viable and strong. We fundamentally believe that if 

we keep a strong stream of pilots coming into the industry, good 

things happen all around. Everything becomes more safe. We can 

make more clear decisions relative to some of the things that the 

manufacturers want to make. 

I mean, part of our problem, particularly with Chico, is if it is 

not supportive of a 50-seat aircraft, we need a manufacturer that 

makes an aircraft that can fit the size of your town. And the manufacturers simply don’t want to make that aircraft, because they 

don’t have confidence that we have a strong pilot stream within the 

industry. 

So the industry needs confidence about the fact that we will have 

pilots. As an entity, you are comfortable that we are going to do 

what it takes to do it safely. But, again, the other thing that we 

can do is do some of these restricted ATP things, which actually 

enhance safety. 

We are not out here to reduce the 1,500-hour rule. I actually like 

the rule, and I think that that is a good mark. But I think that 

we know now that there are some things from a safety perspective 

that we can have some alternate pathways to help people get integrated into the industry. 

Mr. LAMALFA. I am sorry, I have to yield back. 

Thank you. I appreciate the answers. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Lipinski. 

Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I know Mr. DeFazio, Ranking Member DeFazio had talked about 

the Middle Eastern airlines and the unfair competition. We want 

to make sure that we have rules that are in place that help the 

airlines, the airline employees, and the flying public. 

I wanted to raise another related issue in regard to international 

competition in the Norwegian Air International. As most of you 

24 

probably know, NAI is flying as an Irish airline with flight crews 

employed by contracts that are governed by the laws of several 

Asian countries. It sort of leaves you wondering who the regulator 

is here. 

Clearly—well, unfortunately, this was approved here in the U.S. 

I would assume that, going forward, there may be more attempts 

to do something similar. I think it really undermines our Open 

Skies agreement in regard to maintaining labor standards. 

And so I wanted to ask Ms. Nelson what the effect of something 

such as NAI has on your members’ employees? 

Ms. NELSON. Thank you, Congressman Lipinski. 

Yes, this is a grave concern for us. What Norwegian has done 

here is they have created a subsidiary with the Norwegian name 

to essentially hoodwink the public and regulators to believe that 

they are going to be flying under the same standards, high standards that we would expect from Norway. As a signatory to the 

U.S.-EU Open Skies agreement, that was negotiated based on the 

idea that we would maintain the high labor standards in the U.S. 

and EU. None of the other provisions would have gone forward unless that first standard was met. 

And yet, the NAI permit was granted, setting aside, essentially, 

article 17 bis. Not saying that it wasn’t being violated. It is being 

violated with this flag of convenience in Ireland, which will allow 

Adecco or OSM, essentially these temp agencies that hire out aviation workers, pilots and flight attendants and other workers, from 

anywhere in the world where they can find the lowest labor standards. 

We cannot compete with that. Not only that, but there are U.S.- 

based Norwegian flight attendants working today, working for Norwegian today. What Norwegian has attempted to do is to also hoodwink the public into believing that the NAI certificate needed to be 

approved in order to offer U.S. jobs, when, in fact, we have no assurances from Norwegian that they will continue to hire under U.S. 

or European contracts once this takes hold. 

Our European counterparts told us that their airlines were very 

honest with them that they were opposed to this flag-of-convenience model that NAI sets up, but if it was approved they will have 

to immediately compete within 2 years’ time. SAS has already filed 

for an Irish certificate just since this permit has been approved. So 

we are seeing this. This is going to be a faster destruction than 

there was with the flag-of-convenience model with U.S. shipping, 

where now we see Liberian flags flying in our ports. All of our airlines will be choked out, because they will not be able to compete. 

The flight attendants flying for Norwegian here today have just 

unionized. They are voting right now to join the Association of 

Flight Attendants, because we are going to beat back these temp 

agencies who form short-term contracts with them. When they get 

too old, too fat, they are the wrong color, they don’t go along, they 

can just end their contracts when it comes to the next time. They 

only have a 4-year pay scale, because they do not intend for these 

people to stick around. 

These are some things that we beat back in 1946, and this is 

where our aviation industry is headed if we allow the flag of convenience to remain in place, if we allow Norwegian to continue to 

25 

hoodwink the public and allow other carriers to follow their suit, 

to follow this flag-of-convenience model for putting down their flag 

wherever they need to in the world so they can find the lowest 

labor standards and compete based on that. 

Our airlines can’t compete. U.S. aviation workers can’t compete. 

And the reality is that 300,000 good U.S. aviation jobs are at stake 

here. 

Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you. 

Can I have another minute, Mr. Chairman? You can say no. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Go ahead. 

Mr. LIPINSKI. Sorry, I will yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Go ahead. 

Mr. LIPINSKI. Very quickly. Mr. Tilden, Mr. Larsen went through 

some of what you are doing to increase efficiency. I know you have 

done some work with—you did a flight with biomass fuel. You work 

with Boeing. Boeing uses the CLEEN [Continuous Lower Energy, 

Emissions, and Noise] program to research for engine efficiency. Is 

this something that is also very helpful to what you are trying to 

do with efficiency? 

Mr. TILDEN. It is. We are really proud. I think it is still the case 

that Alaska Airlines has the most fuel-efficient fleet in the industry. That is also true of Horizon Air for regional airlines. And we 

have been a big partner with anybody that approaches us with 

biofuels or other alternative fuels. 

There is a big role for the science community and the engine 

manufacturers and others in that. What we are really trying to do 

is demonstrate that there is a market. If somebody can bring a new 

fuel to the market, we have run several of these flights, commercial 

flights with biofuels on board, just to demonstrate, if this fuel does 

come to market in a feasible fashion, we will buy it. 

Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Davis. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for granting Mr. Lipinski the extra minute. That was a great question. I am 

supportive of that. 

And also, I want to thank you for asking the question of Ms. Nelson, because you took mine. So I want to add my name to being 

supportive of that question too. 

But thank you for your response, and thank you for what you are 

doing. You know, we want to make sure that we offer bipartisan 

consensus on some of the concerns that were addressed. 

Mr. Childs, during your opening remarks—and I fly a lot of regional airlines in central Illinois, thank you for what you do in 

keeping many of my regional airports active—but you also mentioned something about student loans and student debt. I have got 

a bill I would love for you to take a look at that is called the Employer Participation in Student Loan Assistance Act. I figured our 

team probably could have thought of a shorter title, but they didn’t, 

so I will address that later. 

But what it does is it creates a private sector incentive for companies like yours and others to have another tool in the toolbox to 

address student debt, and that is a tax incentive to provide up to 

$5,250 a year to your employees to pay down their debt. The emVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:00 May 19, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\115\AV\3-8-20~1\24655.TXT JEAN
26 

ployees wouldn’t be taxed on it. It is a win-win, addresses a big 

problem. Please take a look at that. We would love your support. 

Now, Mr. Tilden and Mr. Childs, my colleague Mr. DeFazio 

talked a lot about ATC reform. He and I are good friends. He may 

not admit that, but I do. But I am on the other side of that debate. 

I support ATC reform. I think NextGen’s rollout has been a continuous inefficient, expensive rollout that we are not seeing progress 

in. 

Now, there were a lot of charts put up. I don’t have any. But I 

want to hear from you. What are your thoughts on those charts? 

What are your thoughts on ATC reform? How can we make the 

aviation industry better through ATC reform? 

We will start with Mr. Tilden. 

Mr. TILDEN. Thank you, Congressman Davis. If I could, I just 

wanted to support Chip Childs on the pilot training. I think this 

is a real issue for our country. 

Mr. DAVIS. It is. 

Mr. TILDEN. Alaska feels this issue as well. When I went to Pacific Lutheran University with Congressman Larsen, I got student 

loans that were guaranteed by the Federal Government. I think if 

we could bring something like that to the pilot profession, the mechanic profession, I think it would be really beneficial and Alaska 

would certainly be supportive. 

On ATC reform, I know it is a contentious issue. I know that 

people feel differently. How we feel about this is that we have actually had this—it actually isn’t a technology problem anymore. It is 

a technology deployment issue. 

The technology has been proven, it has been in place for 21 

years, and the speed is just not what it could be. 

And I personally think it is a time—and I do respect the diversity of opinion on this, but I personally think—flying is about freedom. This is the greatest country in the world. We invented flying 

here. Almost everything about flying was done in this country. 

I think it is a time for us to move forward and create airspace 

that is the most modern and in a time of more and more congestion 

is the most advanced in the world. And I think safety will actually 

be enhanced if we say to the FAA, ‘‘You are responsible for making 

sure we are safe at every single juncture,’’ and separate the operation of the system into another company or another organization 

that has whatever oversight it needs to have, but has stability with 

funding, it has stability with governance, and it has a singular 

focus to give us the best airspace system in the world. 

Mr. DAVIS. And what you are saying is the status quo is not 

achieving any of those goals. 

Mr. TILDEN. The status quo—I personally believe that demand is 

growing at a rate that is higher than technology deployment. So 

the delays are getting worse and worse by the year. 

Mr. DAVIS. And costing taxpayers. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you. 

Mr. Childs. 

Mr. CHILDS. Well, he is my partner, so I shouldn’t probably say 

much more than what he did. He did a great job. 

27 

The only thing I want to emphasize is that operating a regional 

aircraft, we want to be very careful about how it is funded. No matter what the reform is, you can get into a dots-on-the-screen scenario, but we fundamentally, like we have talked about, the volatility of our model is tight. And we just want to make sure that 

it is a fair representation of the economics within our model. 

But we are 100 percent supportive of the direction that you are 

going down with that. And I agree with Mr. Tilden on those points 

as well. 

Mr. DAVIS. All right. 

Any additional points, Mr. Tilden, you want to make on ATC reform—— 

Mr. TILDEN. Not—— 

Mr. DAVIS [continuing]. Comparatively speaking to any other 

countries? 

Mr. TILDEN. I think I made the point in my testimony. There are 

different models in different countries, but most industrialized 

countries in the world have moved to a separate air traffic management organization, separate from the FAA or the safety oversight, 

aviation safety oversight. 

And I think the examples are mixed. There are some great examples. There are examples that aren’t so good. But there are models 

out there for us to look at if we choose to. 

Mr. DAVIS. All right. Thank you. I yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. I would like to now recognize Mr. Tom Brady— 

no, I am sorry, Mr. Capuano. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Nelson, I just want to kind of draw a big bold line on this. 

The other day when I took a late flight home, 9 o’clock I landed— 

actually, a little before 9. The 8-hour rest period, last passenger 

gets off, flight attendant steps off the plane, the 8-hour rest period 

starts, bang. A flight attendant has to walk out to the sidewalk just 

like me, get a ride, usually from a van, to a hotel—I am going 

home, they are going to a hotel—check into the hotel, grab something to eat, and go to sleep. 

So let’s just assume, for the sake of discussion, that the 8-hour 

rest period starts at 9 p.m., let’s assume they are asleep by 11 p.m., 

which, of course, nobody I know that works a 9-to-5 job is asleep 

at 7 p.m., but let’s just assume it for the sake of discussion. 

In order to get back to work by 5 a.m., which is the 8-hour period, you have to do the same thing in reverse. You have to wake 

up, grab a shower, check out of the hotel, have a little something 

to eat, grab a ride back to the airport, get off that shuttle, walk 

through security, walk down, and the 8-hour shift starts the 

minute you step on that plane. 

That means that has left you with—now, again, that presumes 

you have had 2 hours from the end of your shift to the time you 

are actually asleep. If it takes you 2 hours to do that, it takes you 

2 hours in the morning, that leaves you 4 hours to sleep. Now, as 

I understand it, pilots have 6. You have 4. 

How many flight attendants were lost on 9/11? 

Ms. NELSON. Twenty-five. 

Mr. CAPUANO. How many flight attendants were on the flight 

with Sully Sullenberger when he landed in the Hudson? 

28 

Ms. NELSON. Three. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Did they do their job? 

Ms. NELSON. They did their job perfectly. 

Mr. CAPUANO. And their job was a little bit more than serving 

drinks and picking up after my trash. It was saving my life. 

Ms. NELSON. That is correct. 

Mr. CAPUANO. I only do this—I know you know all these answers 

and I know the people at the panel and I know the people here 

know it, but I do it to make sure that people understand, to the 

best of my ability, that flight attendants are a lot more important 

than what we see on a regular basis. 

I don’t want to see a flight attendant in an emergency situation. 

And when they ask me when I am sitting in the emergency row 

if I am willing to help, and they say, you really don’t want me 

opening that door, that is a problem. And I want a flight attendant 

there who is trained on how to help me. 

So I actually don’t think you are asking for much. I think you 

are asking for ridiculously little. And I hope that Congress can do 

what is long overdue to get this done. 

Mr. Tilden, I would like to shift gears a little bit. I am a big supporter of NextGen. I totally agree with everything you said about 

trying to catch up in technology and try to make things efficient. 

But does NextGen alone require a specific flight path to make it 

work? 

Mr. TILDEN. No. No. I think NextGen is about—— 

Mr. CAPUANO. It allows more options. 

Mr. TILDEN [continuing]. A lot of different technologies to shorten 

the travel time. 

Mr. CAPUANO. As an executive of a growing airline, do you ever 

concern yourself with the noise of the people who live under these 

flight paths? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. CAPUANO. I figured you would. You should, and I believe 

that. So, therefore, there is nothing that you know about in 

NextGen that would prohibit the FAA and my NATCA [National 

Air traffic Controllers Association] people from changing the flight 

paths to spread whatever noise is there. Noise is noise, I get it. But 

there is no need to have a flight path continuously going over one 

house and only one house. Is that a fair statement? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. I think it is a fair statement. 

Mr. CAPUANO. The reason I ask, because many of us have had 

some trouble. The FAA has finally acquiesced to try to take a look 

at it. I think we can have modern NextGen equipment, saving you 

some money, saving me some time, and still concern ourselves with 

the quality of life of people who live under flight paths. 

Mr. TILDEN. I agree with you, sir. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Thank you. That is really all I want to say. 

Mr. Childs, would you agree with that? 

Mr. CHILDS. I would agree with that, yes. 

Mr. CAPUANO. And, Mr. Hete, would you agree with that? 

Mr. HETE. I would agree with that. 

Mr. CAPUANO. I am not going to ask you two guys, because you 

don’t own airlines. If you did, though, I know you would. 

29 

I guess I am just going to use the last 30 seconds I have to also 

add my voice to the Norwegian thing. The Norwegian thing is horrendous. It is an absolutely wrong decision and it is heading in a 

direction exactly as you described, Ms. Nelson. It is jeopardizing 

American jobs. 

Mr. Tilden, you will not be able to compete if this goes undone. 

I also want to add one more thing. Mr. Tilden, what is your largest airport that you service? 

Mr. TILDEN. Los Angeles. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Los Angeles. If I start an airline tomorrow and I 

wanted to fly to L.A., and California said, ‘‘You know something, 

Mike, we are going to give you, your new airline, $4 billion to be 

able to fly into L.A. so you don’t have to pay quite so much landing 

fee,’’ do you think that would be fair? 

Mr. TILDEN. No. And to be fair, I wasn’t asked. But Alaska actually has not taken a position on the Norwegian Air International. 

Mr. CAPUANO. I am not asking you to take a position. I am just 

kind of using you to like—— 

Mr. TILDEN. No. And I said it earlier, but just to be really clear, 

as a little airline ourselves, we are 6 percent, 5.5 or 6 percent of 

the industry now with Virgin America. At every opportunity, we 

want to make the case that we want a level playing field. 

And the simple point I made with the Gulf Coast airlines is that 

we are competing against airlines that can go into companies and 

say, ‘‘We are a one-stop shop, we can sell you tickets all over the 

world.’’ Alaska can’t. And in a network business, we need to build 

partnerships with others to have any shot—— 

Mr. CAPUANO. And that is why I am not asking you to knock 

your partners. That would be wrong. 

Mr. TILDEN. Gotcha. 

Mr. CAPUANO. But fair is fair. And fair is a level playing field, 

the Government not paying me to do what somebody else already 

does. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes, I agree. 

Mr. CAPUANO. Thank you, Mr. Tilden. 

Mr. Chairman, it looks like I am over. You are getting kind of 

lax. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. You are always over. 

Mr. CAPUANO. I yield back the remainder of the time I don’t 

have. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Just for the record, you are always over. 

Mr. Webster. 

Mr. WEBSTER. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. Tilden, you mentioned constrained capacity in your testimony. And I had a question about, are you satisfied with the way 

you can obtain a gate slot at an airport, in general? Do you think 

it is balanced? 

Mr. TILDEN. At most airports in our country, it is actually a good 

system. The Government gives these airports money and, as a consequence of receiving Federal money, they are required to create 

access for airlines like Alaska that might want to come into Chicago or Indianapolis or what have you. 

There are a handful of highly constrained airports. And I think 

smaller airlines like Alaska would say, ‘‘No, we would like more acVerDate Aug 31 2005 14:00 May 19, 2017 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 P:\HEARINGS\115\AV\3-8-20~1\24655.TXT JEAN
30 

cess to these airports, and if we had more access we will bring our 

brand of service, different fares’’ and so forth. 

So I think in the most congested, slot-controlled airports, more 

access would be a good thing for competition and for smaller airlines. 

Mr. WEBSTER. So how would you propose to remedy that? 

Mr. TILDEN. You know, I didn’t sort of put a lot of thought into 

this today, but in markets like JFK, as an example, I think we got 

into there a couple of years ago with one red eye flight. I think as 

we look to make changes in the flight schedule at JFK, we might 

allocate a certain number of slots, a certain number of landing 

rights and departure rights for airlines that don’t have capacity, 

airlines that will come in and bring competition to the marketplace. 

Mr. WEBSTER. I have another question about cybersecurity. 

There was another panel a while back, I don’t remember exactly 

when, and they downplayed cybersecurity in the flight industry. 

And then, on the other hand, I was in another committee, and they 

were talking about the fact that even Barbie dolls have IPOs. And 

I am not sure why, maybe just because they can do it. I don’t know. 

But it seems like if that is open, maybe there is a problem. 

Do you see, or can you even talk about in a public forum, what 

might be the problems in cybersecurity? 

Mr. TILDEN. I can speak to that. Are you talking about 

cybersecurity with respect to airlines generally or with respect 

to—— 

Mr. WEBSTER. Yes. Well, the more specific you can get, great. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yeah. No, I think it is a big, big concern for every 

U.S. company. I think it is a particular concern for airlines. You 

have seen airlines have had some outages, some issues in the last 

2, 3, 4 years. Alaska had an outage 5 years ago that required us 

to shut down our operation for half a day. I think folks are dealing 

with it. And it is one of these, whatever, the bad guys are moving 

at a certain rate, and we are trying to move as fast as we can. 

At Alaska, I will tell you that we have quadrupled our IT budget 

in the last 5 years. We have gone from roughly $50 million a year 

to roughly $200 million of spending on IT. Cybersecurity, I would 

call that defensive. A lot of that spending is defensive. It protects 

our operation the way it is today, but it doesn’t really add new features or functionality or benefits for our customers. 

Mr. WEBSTER. Thank you very much. 

I yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Carson. 

Mr. CARSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Hete, in your written testimony you note that ATSG provides 

more and longer flight crew rest opportunities than your passenger 

counterparts. Would you care to comment further? 

And you noted your opposition to any new aircraft noise restrictions. As you know, noise is a very contentious issue for Members 

of Congress. What steps would your airline subsidiaries be willing 

to reduce with regards to local communities’ exposure to aircraft 

noise? 

Mr. HETE. Well, I think it would be, with the existing ATC system, we have to follow prescribed flight paths to begin with. So 

there is not much you can do in regard to controlling noise other 

31 

than operate the aircraft according to the manufacturer’s specifications and keep your engines as low a turn rate as possible. So we 

don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard today. 

Our concern is more if you expand and go to a Next Generation 

System, that it imposes more restrictions on us. Since most of our 

flying is done in the off-hours during the nighttime, since we service the express industry primarily, that we have a larger exposure 

I think in that regard to the time that people are sleeping. So it 

is a greater concern to us than it would be for the passenger carriers who operate in daylight hours. 

As far as the crew rest times, as I said, our operations are built 

around primarily a 5- or call it 51⁄2-day-a-week operation. Most 

flights are one flight into a hub and maybe a shorter leg tagged 

onto it thereafter, and then the pilot is off duty for a considerable 

period of time. If they fly to a west coast, we have 36-hour layovers, 

for example, where they get the additional rest period. So it is not 

as great a concern for us, because of the limited number of flight 

legs that we do fly in a given day. 

Mr. CARSON. Thank you. 

Ms. Nelson, we have heard from U.S. regional airlines that they 

are experiencing a growing pilot shortage, and this kind of shortage 

is often attributed to the 2010 requirement that airline first officers 

possess an airline transport certificate. As you know, this requirement raised the training prerequisite for first officers to 1,500 

flight-hours. 

As president of AFA, you have a vested interest in aviation safety. Do you take a position on this issue and whether there should 

be any rollback on minimum flight-hours for first officers? 

Ms. NELSON. The Association of Flight Attendants supports the 

position of the Air Line Pilots Association and the Colgan families 

who are here today, and we believe that industrial issues should 

not inform safety issues in aviation. 

Mr. CARSON. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Westerman. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Ms. Nelson, could you elaborate a little bit more about your concerns with voice calls on airplanes? 

Ms. NELSON. Yes. We have incredible concerns with voice calls 

on airplanes. We have concerns in many ways. 

First and foremost, our members are charged with keeping order 

in the cabin, and more and more we are having to deescalate conflict. We are concerned about the conflict, that this will increase as 

people are having to listen to very loud business meetings or conversations with new boyfriends or girlfriends or relationships that 

are ending. Whatever those conversations may be, people don’t 

want to hear it in the space of the cabin where they are closer together than they have ever been before. 

But even more so, we have a concern with security. And if terrorists are able to communicate in real time through voice communications, Richard Reid’s bomb likely would have gone off. Flight 

attendants would not have been able to thwart that effort. If we 

have voice calls allowed in the cabin, we will not be able to see 

those who are intending to use this for ill purposes. They will not 

stand out, they will blend in. 

32 

And so, for those reasons, we are adamantly opposed. And we are 

also opposed, we believe, because we also are often the strongest 

advocates for the passengers in our care, and they are unanimously 

opposed to voice calls in the cabin. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. I believe you just addressed a question about 

pilots, but what can be done from a policy standpoint to encourage 

more young people to pursue aviation careers? 

Mr. HETE. I think from an aviation career standpoint, a lot of it 

is just awareness, for young people to be aware of what the opportunities are in the aviation community. I know there is a lot of 

focus on pilots, but we also operate an MRO, maintenance, repair, 

and overhaul operation. And from a technician standpoint, trained 

aircraft mechanics are in very short supply as well, just because of 

lack of familiarity of the opportunities there for young people to get 

into those career fields. 

Certainly from a pilot standpoint, the investment is significantly 

greater than you would have for a mechanic, for example. So anything that could be done to facilitate the funding of those certainly 

would be of long-term benefit. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. And, Ms. Nelson, I saw a story recently about— 

I think this actually happened several years ago, but it was highlighting airline employees intervening in human trafficking. There 

was a young girl, who I believe passed a note in the bathroom, and 

found out she was being harassed or trafficked. 

Can you explain more about the progress of enhanced training 

required by our 2016 bill to help flight attendants detect human 

trafficking? 

Ms. NELSON. I would like to thank this committee very much for 

taking up that issue and mandating training for flight attendants 

to recognize and report human trafficking. 

The only issue is that there was not a process to implement that 

training or specific requirements about what would be contained in 

that training. And so we are working with our airlines to implement those programs to the highest standards possible, hopefully 

aligning with the Blue Lightning Initiative of DHS and DOT. 

And we are a little bit concerned that this is not moving as 

quickly as it should. We have heard from flight attendants over the 

years that they have seen something that just doesn’t look right or 

thought about it after the flight but didn’t know what to do at the 

time. So everyone needs to understand how to recognize it, what 

to do, how to report it, and how to get it to the proper authorities 

so that we can stop human trafficking in our skies. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. I have got one final question, I guess more for 

the airline companies. I live in a rural district where what commercial airline service we got is essential air service, and I get complaints from my constituents on the quality of that service. So what 

can we do to get more—twin-engine turboprops would be an improvement in some of these airports or even jet service—through 

the Essential Air Service program? 

Mr. CHILDS. Well, I think a lot of it has to do, quite candidly, 

with the economics and that type of stuff. I mentioned earlier that 

the best thing for us is to make sure we have got a very strong, 

ample supply of aviation professionals. I think reassuring the confidence with manufacturers, airplane manufacturers and that, so 

33 

they continue to move technology in the right direction is a great 

thing. 

And more importantly, speak out to your carrier. I don’t know 

which location you are meeting with, but there are a lot of great 

opportunities that are being left behind today throughout the 

United States relative to essential air service, great communities 

that deserve outstanding support. But some of the things that we 

have talked about in my previous written and oral testimony I 

think are very key elements to help us resolve that. 

Enhancing safety to making sure that we have got an R–ATP, 

make sure there is an awareness like was discussed about how 

good the aviation community is. We need more diversity within it. 

And then we need some loan programs for pilots that help them 

get to a very lucrative career, what is out there today. 

All of that stuff will come back to small communities. But we 

have got to get granular, more confidence in the regional airline 

side to make sure that we get the right aviation professionals in 

there to help even have that conversation. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. Thank you. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mrs. Napolitano. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Ms. Nelson, you detailed concerns about pilot pay. Can you explain about flight attendants’ pay and where you stand? 

Ms. NELSON. Yes. Thank you very much for that question. 

We have the same concerns about flight attendant pay in the regional industry. In fact, flight attendant pay is lower than the figures that were given today for pilots. 

So, for example, actually sharing the panel here today, Mr. 

Childs, SkyWest does a better job of paying flight attendants in the 

regional industry. But across the board, on average, flight attendants working on regional jets under the flag of the mainline carriers and serving the same passengers are making 45 percent less. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Why? 

Ms. NELSON. And that is concerning, because they are also aviation first responders and last line of defense in aviation security. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Why are they getting less pay? 

Ms. NELSON. Because of what has been described here today, 

which is the volatility of the regional model that is very, very tight 

in these capacity purchase agreements with the mainline airlines. 

And those agreements have not built in enough ability for these regional carriers to provide sufficient pay to the people who are working for them. 

Mesa Airlines is a bottom feeder on this, providing 20 percent 

less than the rest of the regional flight attendants as well. We are 

in the middle of a strike vote on that and trying to rectify that situation. But they also have very low work rules that include only 

paying for schedules. So if a flight is going from Chicago to 

LaGuardia and has to divert, has to hold in the air, has to stay 

with those passengers for upwards of 6, 7 hours, depending upon 

what happens, they are still only paid the 2 hours that they were 

originally scheduled for. 

It is inhumane. It has got to change. And it is a problem with 

the general structure of the agreements between the mainline and 

the regional carriers, first and foremost. 

34 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Thank you. But one of the other questions 

that I had was the concern I have over subsidized foreign airlines 

in the U.S. market. I was wondering whether they have the same 

requirements for pilots and for the attendants, because if they are 

subsidized, we don’t subsidize that to the size of what they do in 

foreign countries. 

Would you have any comment about the concern this brings up 

and the problem with any airline and how we could address it? 

Ms. NELSON. We have concerns that, of course, we don’t have 

oversight over what those airlines are doing. So in some of these 

countries it is outlawed for workers to even organize, to bargain 

contracts, to band together, to beat back the discriminatory practices that we have beat back over the years. 

If they overtake our market, we will not be able to get that back 

again. So for every route that the U.S. airlines have to cede, those 

Gulf carriers are encroaching upon the U.S. market, which is decreasing their ability to actually compete with the network structures and ultimately will be choked out. And we won’t have any 

say over how those workers are treated or what the safety standards are. We won’t have any control over the industry that is providing service for Americans. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Well, I would like to ask you one question 

since you brought up the attendants. Are the attendants and the 

pilots given any mental health screenings? Because you deal with 

a lot of crazy people sometimes. And I fly twice a week, so I have 

seen it all, I have heard it all. Eighteen years of it. Mental health 

is beginning to be a major problem that we should have maybe 

training for the pilots and for the attendants. 

Ms. NELSON. So mental health is certainly an issue that we deal 

with for our union. And having unions and having professional pilots and flight attendants who are career employees is very important. We can provide resources and structures to be able to support 

people throughout their careers. 

So we have vibrant EAP programs where we address these issues 

in the workplace immediately. Their peers understand that they 

can report any concerns that they might have, get people the help 

that they need sooner. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. But are they trained to recognize any of the 

symptoms? 

Ms. NELSON. Our EAP committees are trained to recognize those 

symptoms, to report that. And all workers are advised in unionized 

workplaces at U.S. carriers that they have the ability to use these 

resources to their benefit, to report any potential problems in a 

confidential atmosphere, to get help to those employees, get them 

off the job while they need to recover, and bring them back when 

they are healthy. 

Mrs. NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Rokita. 

Mr. ROKITA. Thank you, Chairman. 

I thank the witnesses. 

Mr. Tilden, you said you are a pilot. Are you current? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ROKITA. What do you fly? 

35 

Mr. TILDEN. I actually bought a TBM now. I was in a Cessna 182 

for a long time. 

Mr. ROKITA. Right. There we go. So general aviation for sure. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. ROKITA. I appreciate that. I also appreciate, if I understood 

your testimony to questions prior to that, a lot of the congestion 

and capacity issues aren’t just in the air, right? You said that is 

at the airport, whether it is going to the airport, marshalling 

issues. You know, we have that issue a number of times trying to 

get to a gate. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. ROKITA. And, in fact, don’t the airlines execute their schedule such that you have departures and arrivals generally coming 

together at the same time so you can facilitate the movement of 

passengers, so you don’t have to pay people at extraneous hours if 

you don’t have to, to make things more efficient, which I appreciate, correct? 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. ROKITA. So that contributes to capacity and constraints and 

some things as well. 

I also understood from your testimony—and I haven’t really 

heard this before, I think you said it very well—look, we are looking for fast tracking of approaches. 

Mr. TILDEN. Right. 

Mr. ROKITA. I am happy to work with you on that. I think that 

is a great idea. I am going to have you put up an approach I picked 

from Miami just kind of randomly. I don’t know if you can read 

that. I don’t know if we can get it any bigger. 

You have seen this if you are instrument-rated. This is a relatively simple approach. And you can see two-thirds of the way 

down to the right the profile view of that approach. And you see 

this is an ILS into 26-left at Miami, and you come down that approach and starting at about 3,000 feet, and for the next 6, 7 miles 

or so it is exactly what you are talking about. 

Mr. TILDEN. Correct. 

Mr. ROKITA. But I think what you are saying is that you would 

like to see that line continue on for 100, 150 miles out or whatever, 

so that you can idle the engines, which would help with sound. You 

can hit your numbers, hit your speeds, true up at the end if you 

have to, but otherwise, boom, you are in, right? 

Mr. TILDEN. That is exactly right. So this is an ILS approach. 

And an ILS has two radio beams. It has got a localizer, which is 

the up/down—sorry, the lateral beam. 

Mr. ROKITA. I only got 5 minutes, so we are not going to do a 

class now. 

Mr. TILDEN. OK. But what you want is to get rid of that and 

have GPS a curved line from altitude down to the runway in. 

Mr. ROKITA. Sure, but not get rid of this. I don’t like that, because for some of us we use that still, because we are not coming 

from 30,000 feet or 200 miles away. 

Mr. TILDEN. But it only extends 10 miles. 

Mr. ROKITA. Right. It is simple enough. I think we are on the 

same point. We can get an approach for you, because we have a 

GPS approach that I can put up right now that would show the 

36 

same thing. Within 2 or 3 years, we had GPS approaches plates 

pop up all over the country. They got that done. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. Yes. 

Mr. ROKITA. I don’t see why they can’t get that done for you, and 

I would like to work with you on that. 

At the same time, I don’t see why you would testify, why you 

need to testify that that is the problem, that we need to give away 

the national treasure that is our airspace, not even lease or sell 

like we did with the Indiana toll road for $3.8 billion, but give 

away the national treasure that is our airspace to facilitate that for 

you. I think there is just a much simpler way. 

And I would, Chairman, introduce, without opposition, apparently, hopefully, Mr. DeFazio’s poster board for the record with 

unanimous consent, if I can have that. Whatever he was testifying 

with, I would like that in the record. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Without objection. 

[The chart can be found on page 17.] 

Mr. ROKITA. Thank you. 

Because you want to do all that Mr. DeFazio pointed out to accomplish that line getting extended 100, 150 miles out, which I 

completely agree with. 

I think perhaps the bigger problem is maybe, not to put words 

in your mouth, these are mine, that once you do that, once you idle 

back and you set that course—and you could do this very easily, 

very safely, and you are hitting your numbers just like you say— 

you can’t have anyone else get in your way, right? 

So if I am flying that approach coming in, not on your timetable, 

but my own timetable, you can’t, because it defeats the purpose if 

you have to vector away, come back, idle back up to hold an altitude, which is exactly what our ATC professionals are there to do, 

to provide safety in an environment where we all have a right to 

use the airspace. And you, as a GA pilot, certainly in Alaska, know 

that we pay a gas tax, we have a right to that airspace just like 

everyone else for as much as we use of it. 

Mr. TILDEN. Right. 

Mr. ROKITA. And it works and it works very efficiently. 

So at least on the approach plate aspect of this, count me as a 

fan. Count me as someone who wants to get you there. Because not 

only is it the sound, you are saving a lot of money, because to run 

a turbine at a lower altitude is an extremely much more amount 

of fuel than at a higher altitude where they are designed to run. 

Mr. TILDEN. I think we calculate 100 gallons and 1 ton of emissions per approach that is flown with this methodology. 

Mr. ROKITA. This is the issue. It is easily solvable. We just did 

it with GPS approaches all over the country. We can get there 

without destroying the ecosystem that is our national airspace and 

where a lot of your future pilots for both you and the regionals are 

going to come from. 

I will shut up. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Mr. Johnson. 

Mr. JOHNSON OF GEORGIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

37 

This question is for Mr. Tilden, Mr. Childs, and Mr. Leocha. And, 

Mr. Leocha, I would like for you to answer first, followed by Mr. 

Tilden and Mr. Childs. 

With respect to flight pricing data, is there a legal or public interest requirement that requires that flight pricing data be public 

information that can be displayed or published by anybody, any entity, at any time; or, on the other hand, is flight pricing data proprietary information protected by intellectual property law, which 

enables the airline to control which entities can display or publish 

their flight pricing data? 

Mr. Leocha? 

Mr. LEOCHA. Thank you for the question. 

The airlines are common carriers, and there is a lot of law that 

says that pricing of common carriers is public information. At the 

same time, airlines should be allowed to operate and to sell their 

tickets through businesses of their choice. 

What we at Travelers United have been pushing for for years is 

for the release of all of the pricing data, including airfares and ancillary fees, so that we can then put together a good shopping engine and IT professionals can put together something which allows 

good comparison shopping. 

We are not trying to take away the choice of an airline in terms 

of who they would like to sell their tickets through, but we are trying to find out how we can comparison shop and understand what 

the final cost of the product is going to be. 

Mr. JOHNSON OF GEORGIA. All right. Thank you. 

Mr. Tilden. 

Mr. TILDEN. So on this subject, when we advertise a fare, Seattle 

to Los Angeles, for example, we are required to include all the Government fees and taxes in those fares as part of the advertised 

price, and those fees and taxes can be 20 or 25 percent of the ticket 

price. So that is done. And if we try to sell that fare over 

AlaskaAir.com or through a travel agent or whatever third-party 

website it might be, those fares are all represented. 

I think where the industry pulls back is people that are saying, 

you are required to give us extra information on—it might be the 

charge for a bag or for a fruit and cheese tray, for any ancillary. 

And here is the important part of this, is these people all have a 

business model where they charge the airlines for that. 

And I think what we say is that that should be a commercial 

transaction. If it is in our interest to distribute through a travel 

agency that uses Sabre, then we should go negotiate that transaction with the travel agency that uses Sabre and provide the information. 

But to be compelled to and then to have to pay the fee to the 

global distribution service, I guess what we are saying is we don’t 

see the commercial value. We think that we will actually have 

lower costs and lower fares for travel—and low fares is something 

Alaska cares about a lot—through lower cost and more direct distribution. 

Mr. JOHNSON OF GEORGIA. All right. Thank you, Mr. Tilden. 

Mr. Childs. 

Mr. CHILDS. Yes, I would echo what Mr. Tilden said. We do not, 

within our business model, in any way distribute any of the sales 

38 

of the tickets. We don’t do any advertising, we don’t do any of that. 

We just make contracts with the major carriers that fly from point 

A to point B. So for us, it would be not necessarily part of our business model or I wouldn’t be able to have anything to say about it. 

Mr. JOHNSON OF GEORGIA. All right. Thank you. 

Ms. Nelson, in your written testimony, you mentioned that the 

United States lags behind other countries in equalizing rest regulations. As you noted, the committee included a provision requiring 

a 10-hour rest between flight attendants’ duty days and Fatigue 

Risk Management Plans in last year’s FAA reauthorization. 

How would these requirements help create equality with other 

countries on flight attendant rest? 

Ms. NELSON. Thank you very much for the question. 

What ICAO has done is set standards that say that the flight 

deck and the cabin crews should have equalized rest, and has been 

very prescriptive about that and was very clear about that in 2009. 

What changed is when 117 went into place, FAR 117 for the pilots, the minimum rest moved to 10 hours’ minimum rest, and the 

flight attendant rest regulations got left behind, even though we 

had participated in at the same time fatigue studies commissioned 

by Congress that concluded that flight attendants needed more rest 

in order to avoid fatigue. 

So including the 10 hours’ minimum rest and a Fatigue Risk 

Management Plan that will help flight attendants identify when 

they are tired, how to avoid being tired, and how to stay rested 

longer is critical to ensure that we do not have flight attendants 

who are serving as aviation’s first responders fatigued in our aviation system. 

It is a critical safety issue. And I want to thank the committee 

again for making this a top priority. And I also want to note that 

we have a leader in the industry at the table. Alaska Airlines actually does better than this. So there are some carriers who have negotiated better contracts, but we need to raise the standard across 

the industry, because the 8 hours that are in place today are simply not enough to avoid fatigue. 

Mr. JOHNSON OF GEORGIA. Thank you. 

And I yield back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you. 

Mr. Leocha, how would you rate the performance of the DOT consumer protection efforts? 

Mr. LEOCHA. DOT’s consumer protection efforts, when I first 

came to Washington back in 2009, were excellent. We had several 

big changes in terms of increasing the compensation for lost luggage, delayed and damaged luggage. We had increases in the denied boarding compensation. They began with the tarmac delay 

rules. And we also have the Full Fare Advertising rule that came 

into effect. And on top of that, the 24-hour rule, where if you make 

a mistake you can go back and you have got up to 24 hours to cancel your flight. 

Over the last 4 years, the Department of Transportation has 

been doing an awful lot of studies and rulemakings, and I have 

filed literally hundreds of pages of comments. However, nothing 

has really changed. 

39 

So at this point, we are in a situation where the system is operating. As you heard from my testimony, I still don’t feel that consumers can adequately comparison shop and to know what the full 

price of the product that they are buying is. There is no way today 

for anybody to say, ‘‘I am traveling with my wife and two kids, we 

are going to carry on four bags and check two bags, and we are 

going from New York City to L.A.’’ You cannot get the total price, 

including checked bags, assigned seats, and airfares. It doesn’t 

exist. And that is something which we need to get around to, and 

eventually we will, because it will help everybody. 

Competition is what makes these systems work. And without 

competition, without having the pricing and the data available to 

everyone, the system just won’t change. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you. 

For Mr. Tilden and Mr. Childs, Mr. Westerman touched on this, 

and it may be purely economics, but I represent Atlantic City Airport. We have a 10,000-foot runway. We were backup for the shuttle when it was in operation. We have a new, very modern terminal. We are in fairly close proximity to Philadelphia, which is 

bursting at the seams with trying to figure out how to expand. 

And maybe it is just economics, but the South Jersey Transportation Authority and actually the New York Port Authority, which 

is now the operator for the airport, we are just searching for, like, 

the same thing Mr. Westerman was searching. Do you have any 

advice for an airport like ours of how to attract additional? 

Mr. TILDEN. What we have seen on the west coast, what Mr. 

Childs said, I think airports have had outreach efforts. They come 

talk to airlines like Alaska. And I think when they work with the 

airline and they commit that an airline brings in service, we are 

going to try to get people on the flight, we have done that in many 

cases, and often it works. Often the community says, bring new air 

service to us. We bring the new air service. They get people out, 

support the air service, and it works. So that is a bit of advice I 

would have. 

The other thing I would just add is the system is fantastic. I 

mean, it works really, really well. But a lot of the things we have 

been talking about today, it just costs money to fly an airplane well 

and safely and pay people the way you want to pay them and so 

forth. 

So what you have seen—and Chip has been speaking to this— 

is that the smallest airplane size you see has gone from 9 seats to 

19 seats to 28 seats to now really the smallest airplane you see 

much of at all is about a 50-seater. And I don’t know what to do 

about that. I don’t have any bright, any great—it just may be that 

to fly the way we want to fly and need to fly, that is about the size 

that you are going to see sort of commonly used. 

To the other Congressman’s question, in certain markets where 

they are really remote, maybe essential air service with some help 

from the Government is how you prop up service in some of those 

locations. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Anything different, Mr. Childs? 

Mr. CHILDS. Yeah, I may sound like a broken record a little bit 

here today, but the reality is, if there are not enough pilots and the 

statistics that I read earlier are real, if you are trying to get new 

40 

service the way you are talking about, it is very, very difficult unless we solve this pilot solution through the means in which we 

have talked about, because that enables you to have a conversation. 

We talk about communities losing service. We talk about communities getting service. A lot of this has to be solved by this pilot situation that we need help with. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. OK. 

Ms. Nelson, you were very articulate about the rest hour, and at 

least some of us hope that becomes a reality. But in addition to 

that, is there anything that we should be looking at that would be 

on a top priority list for you that we have not asked about that you 

think should be included or we should be looking at? 

Ms. NELSON. Thank you very much, Chairman LoBiondo. 

Our top priority is the 10 hours with the Fatigue Risk Management Plan. We also appreciate the work of this committee and 

would continue to support some of the items that were in last 

year’s bill, which include a review of the evacuation standards, no 

knives on planes, and I am trying to look for the list of the rest. 

But we would really implore this committee to continue with the 

10 hours in the Fatigue Risk Management Program and to take 

very seriously your job with the oversight of the industry in enforcing these trade agreements, enforcing these Open Skies agreements, and addressing the issue of the flag-of-convenience model in 

aviation. We believe that that is the top concern for our members 

and we hope that that will be addressed this year. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Very well. 

Mr. DeFazio, do you have anything else. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Hete, the Trump administration has recently put a hold on 

an FAA rule to harmonize the United States with the ICAO lithium battery transport requirements. ICAO determined that the 

risk is such that there should be no commercial transport of lithium batteries on passenger aircraft whatsoever. And then secondly, 

they imposed requirements upon packaging and charge and other 

things for freight transport. Do you support the ICAO rules? 

Mr. HETE. Yes, we do. Harmonization is key to us. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. Right. So I am hopeful that the Trump administration will withdraw their delay in that rule. I mean, what this 

said is: Well, we know we will have voluntary compliance. 

I am always concerned with voluntary compliance because there 

is always some low-budget person out there saying: To heck with 

that, I will take your stuff. 

So you think if we set this floor we are going to be much better 

off because everybody has to follow the same rules. 

Mr. HETE. That is correct. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. 

And then to Mr. Tilden or Mr. Childs, I would assume you support the ICAO position that the commercial transport at this point 

in time is too hazardous and would not want to see that, again, 

someone is transporting commercially on passenger aircraft. 

Mr. TILDEN. Yes. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. 

Mr. Childs. 

41 

Mr. CHILDS. Yes. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. Good. Well, hopefully we can get that straightened out with the administration. So—well, OK. 

I had asked the question of Ms. Nelson. Your testimony was 

great. And, I mean, one thing that came to my mind was, is if we 

are contracting for pilots around the world, what standards would 

they have been trained under and what number of hours would 

they have. And then of course there is the additional problem of 

the Malaysian flight that we still haven’t found. So I am not anxious to be having Malaysian pilots in the near future. 

And I have found, the staff found that ICAO says 200 hours of 

flight time, or 150 if completed during training, is the pilot standard. So when we start looking at this contract model, it is likely 

that your people are going to be flying overseas in complicated, 

large aircraft with someone who has got 201 hours of time. That 

is great. 

I do note in India, in fact, there were people who got certificated 

who had never, ever even flown a simulator, let alone a plane. It 

was a bit of a scandal, and they got their certificates pulled, but 

it did happen. 

So I just want to thank you for raising those issues. And I don’t 

think we should be asking U.S. airlines to compete with countries 

that only require 200 hours to meet the minimum ICAO standard. 

I would have a tremendous concern about that. 

Would you, Mr. Leocha, have a concern in terms of consumer 

protection of having people fly on planes with pilots with that little 

experience? 

Mr. LEOCHA. The international airline system as it is running 

right now is probably the safest that it has ever been in history, 

and if we keep doing what we are doing and we have basically no 

fatal crashes for a long time, I think that we are on the right track. 

Mr. DEFAZIO. OK. That was a little equivocal. I would say we 

still haven’t found that Malaysian flight, so I have concerns about 

chasing the cheapest labor around the world. I have spent a lot of 

time on cruise line issues and domestic maritime issues, and nobody wins in a race to the bottom, which is where we have taken 

things, particularly with flags of convenience. 

There was a great ‘‘60 Minutes’’ piece about 15 years ago on flags 

of convenience and what it means for passengers: rape, murder, 

whatever. You would go to the Liberian courts if you were on the 

high seas. A ship gets hijacked, call the Liberian Navy. I do not 

want to see something like that happening to the airline industry, 

and this model will take us in that direction. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the time, and yield 

back. 

Mr. LOBIONDO. Thank you, Mr. DeFazio. 

I would like to thank our panelists here today. I think this was 

very productive. 

I would like to remind everybody we are looking for your ideas, 

transportfeedback@mail.house.gov. 

And this hearing stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:07 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 

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