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S. HRG. 114–596 

OPENING DOORS TO ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY 

FOR OUR VETERANS AND THEIR FAMILIES 

THROUGH ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JUNE 25, 2015 

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov 

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(II) 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

DAVID VITTER, Louisiana, Chairman 

JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire, Ranking Member 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MARCO RUBIO, Florida 

RAND PAUL, Kentucky 

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina 

DEB FISCHER, Nebraska 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

JONI ERNST, Iowa 

KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire 

MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 

HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota 

EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts 

CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey 

CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

GARY C. PETERS, Michigan 

ZAK BAIG, Republican Staff Director 

ROBERT DIZNOFF, Democratic Staff Director 

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(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page 

Vitter, Hon. David, Chairman, and a U.S. Senator from Louisiana ................... 1 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne, a U.S. Senator from New Hampshire ............................ 2 

WITNESSES

Panel 1: 

Nowosielski, Katrina, Owner, Storm Guard of LA, Lafayette, LA ...................... 4 

Tansey, Albert, President, Tansey Electric, Manchester, NH ............................. 7 

Sayles Artis, Laurie, President and CEO, Civility Management Solutions 

(CMS), Bowie, MD ................................................................................................ 11 

Panel 2: 

Carson, Barbara, Acting Associate Administrator, Office of Veterans Business 

Development, U.S. Small Business Administration, Washington, DC ............ 27 

Haynie, Michael, Executive Director, Institute for Veterans and Military Families, Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY ........................................................... 33 

Daugherty, Scott R., Assistant Vice Chancellor and State Director, Small 

Business Technology & Development Center, Raleigh, NC .............................. 37 

McCaffrey, Charles W., Acting Director, Veterans Business Outreach Center 

at Community Business Partnership, Springfield, VA ..................................... 41 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Carson, Barbara 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 27 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 30 

Responses to Questions Submitted by Ranking Member Shaheen, Senator 

Gardner, and Senator Ernst ........................................................................ 51 

Daugherty, Scott R. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 37 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 39 

Haynie, Michael 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 33 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 35 

McCaffrey, Charles W. 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 41 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 43 

Response to a Question Submitted by Ranking Member Shaheen .............. 55 

Nowosielski, Katrina 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 4 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 6 

Sayles Artis, Laurie 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 11 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 13 

ScoutComms 

Letter Dated July 10, 2015 .............................................................................. 50 

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 2 

Tansey, Albert 

Testimony .......................................................................................................... 7 

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 9 

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IV 

Vitter, Hon. David 

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1 

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(1) 

OPENING DOORS TO ECONOMIC 

OPPORTUNITY FOR OUR VETERANS 

AND THEIR FAMILIES THROUGH 

ENTREPRENEURSHIP 

THURSDAY, JUNE 25, 2015 

UNITED STATES SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:36 a.m., in Room 

428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. David Vitter, Chairman 

of the Committee, presiding. 

Present: Senators Vitter, Fischer, Gardner, Ernst, Ayotte, Shaheen, Cantwell, and Hirono. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID VITTER, CHAIRMAN, 

AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA 

Chairman VITTER. If I can have everyone’s attention, good morning. This hearing of the Senate Small Business Committee will 

come to order. 

Thanks for joining us today to examine how we support veterans’ 

entrepreneurship through various programs at the U.S. Small 

Business Administration. I want to thank Ranking Member Shaheen for suggesting this hearing and for working with me on a 

comprehensive veterans’ entrepreneurship bill that we hope to 

mark up next month. 

We will be hearing from two panels of witnesses today. The first 

is a panel of entrepreneurs who have honorably and bravely served 

our country in the Armed Forces, and the second panel includes 

representatives of programs that help these veterans start and 

grow their businesses. 

Of course, veterans are invaluable members of our community, 

serving our country in so many ways, both here and abroad. Of 

course, it started with their valiant military service, but it also continues in terms of being business leaders and absolutely vital members of our economy. They gain valuable experience throughout 

their service, and 69 percent of veterans say that their biggest 

challenge after leaving the military is finding a job. We have over 

one million veterans currently unemployed, with unemployment 

rates for veterans at nine percent, and in some markets as high as 

21 percent. 

So, we are here today to examine how we can better serve our 

returning heroes through entrepreneurial development programs at 

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the SBA that target veteran service members throughout their 

transition to civilian life. 

The SBA operates a number of relevant programs. We are here 

to find out how we can make them even better and more effective. 

There are SBA’s core technical assistance programs, such as Small 

Business Development Centers, SCORE, and Women’s Business 

Centers, that also serve and have outreach initiatives specific to 

veterans. And, the SBA has supplemented these efforts with several new innovative initiatives aimed at supporting veterans and 

their families, like Veterans Business Outreach Centers, Operation 

Boots to Business, Veteran Women Igniting the Spirit of Entrepreneurship, and the Entrepreneurship Bootcamp for veterans with 

disabilities. These programs serve as vital resources for veteran entrepreneurs for training and counseling on how to translate their 

professional skills into a viable, sustainable business operation. 

Today’s hearing will inform us in a number of areas, including 

the development of legislation that we are working on. I am particularly interested in finding out more about the role SBA’s core 

entrepreneurship programs play in delivering entrepreneurship 

training to veterans nationwide and how we can ensure that any 

new initiatives are fully integrated with these partners. 

I also want to ensure that our veterans get the highest quality 

assistance as they start their own businesses and that we are making effective taxpayer investments. Metrics for these programs 

must be clearly defined and reliable and measurable, and the grant 

award process must be robust and fully competitive. 

I know that our witnesses can shed really important light on 

these and other issues, and so thanks to all of our witnesses participating today once again. 

Now, I would like to turn to our Ranking Member, Senator Shaheen, for her opening statement. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN, RANKING 

MEMBER, AND A U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Good morning, everyone. Thank you to our witnesses who are 

here to enlighten us this morning. 

I really appreciate this opportunity to discuss a topic that is incredibly important not only for our veterans, but also for our economy and for our nation as a whole, and, let me apologize at the beginning of my remarks because I will have to leave at about 10:30 

because the Appropriations Committee is marking up legislation 

today and I want to make sure I am there to see how we are spending the money. So, I apologize in advance to the second panel, 

which I am afraid I will miss entirely. 

Today, there are approximately 2.4 million veteran-owned small 

businesses across the United States and they represent about eight 

percent of all small business. Veteran-owned small businesses generate over $1 trillion in revenue each year and they employ nearly 

5.8 million people. 

In my home State of New Hampshire alone, there are nearly 

14,000 veteran-owned firms, accounting for $6.7 billion in sales. 

That is roughly 10 percent of the companies and 5.6 percent of all 

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sales in New Hampshire. That is the fifth-highest percentage in the 

country for those small businesses. 

Now, today’s hearing is about the federal government’s investment in promoting veteran small business ownership and entrepreneurship, specifically through programs at the Small Business Administration. 

Military veterans who choose to become entrepreneurs play a 

critical role in our nation’s economy, as those statistics show. Their 

training and leadership skills provide a natural foundation to establish and grow businesses, which in turn create employment opportunities for returning veterans and American workers. That is 

why we must ensure that the federal government makes veterans’ 

small business development a priority and that the programs being 

administered work effectively and efficiently. 

Encouraging veterans to start small businesses and succeed has 

been one of my top priorities on this committee, and I know that 

it is something that the Chairman shares as well as other members 

of the committee. Earlier this year, I introduced the Veterans Entrepreneurship Act, which was approved unanimously by the committee and it would make fee waivers permanent for veterans for 

SBA loans to help them get access to credit. 

Now, today, we have an opportunity to take a look at the full 

range of programs that are offered through the SBA to help veterans start and grow small businesses. The SBA offers programs 

that provide critical information, education, training, and counseling to our veterans. The committee’s review of these programs 

is timely and I look forward to discussing ways we can make these 

efforts more effective and responsive to veterans’ needs, and I am 

sure our panelists this morning, particularly those of you on the 

first panel, will have some thoughts about that. 

I want to, as I said, welcome all of you today, but I want to take 

this opportunity to just say a few words about the witness from 

New Hampshire, Mr. Al Tansey. Mr. Tansey is President of Tansey 

Electric, which is an electrical contracting business in Manchester, 

New Hampshire. He was recently named the SBA New Hampshire 

and Region 1 Veteran Small Business Owner of the Year. Congratulations, Al, for that recognition. He has a great story about 

his journey to becoming an entrepreneur and the importance of 

making sure our veteran support programs are working effectively 

and in a coordinated fashion. 

So, again, thank you all very much for being here. Al, thank you 

so much for coming down from Manchester, and I look forward to 

hearing what each of you have to say this morning. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman VITTER. Thank you, Senator Shaheen. 

And now, we will go to our first panel. I will introduce the other 

two members of our first panel. 

Mrs. Katrina Nowosielski is a Marine veteran and owns Storm 

Guard of Louisiana with her husband, James. Their company offers 

hurricane protection products to residential and commercial structures. They reached out to the Louisiana Small Business Development Center at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette upon 

starting their business and have continued to rely on the SBDC’s 

services as their company has grown. 

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And, of course, you just heard about Al Tansey. Welcome. 

And, finally, Ms. Laurie Sayles Artis is the owner of Civility 

Management Solutions in Bowie, Maryland, and a veteran of the 

U.S. Marine Corps. Before establishing her business, Ms. Artis 

went to SCORE, where she started working with a mentor who 

helped her navigate the early challenges of starting a business and 

has continued to help her expand her contracting business. 

Welcome to all of you. You will each have five minutes to testify, 

and, of course, your full written statement will be made a part of 

the record. 

And with that, we will start with Mrs. Nowosielski. 

STATEMENT OF KATRINA NOWOSIELSKI, OWNER, STORM 

GUARD OF LOUISIANA LLC, LAFAYETTE, LA 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Hello, everyone. 

Chairman VITTER. Hi. 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Well, I did not write it, so I am just going 

to impromptu—— 

Chairman VITTER. Sure. 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. When I was 16, I attended my brother’s Marine Corps graduation. The first thing that I heard was boots hitting the ground in unison. It was so powerful, and just feeling the 

essence of all the Marines there, I knew at that point that I wanted 

to be a part of that. I wanted that strength and that power behind 

me. 

A couple of years later, after I graduated, I joined the Marine 

Corps. I served four years, and I served a 10-month tour in Iraq, 

which is where I met my husband. When we came back, we had 

about two years left of service and we transitioned out at that point 

because we were ready to start our family. 

We moved to Florida, where James, my husband, began working 

for a hurricane shutter company in South Florida. We spent about 

a year and a half there and decided to move home to Louisiana 

around family. We realized that there were no companies really focusing on hurricane protection there the same way that they did 

in Florida. So, we used the business model that we experienced 

there, and we replicated it at home in South Louisiana, and it has 

gone pretty fantastically. 

We began in Florida using the SBA from a distance. They guided 

us from start to finish on how to go about those things. Basic questions were answered. The liaisons there are phenomenal. They are 

wonderful, wonderful people. They helped me with things that I 

could not possibly have done for myself. 

I began with QuickBooks training, which was something that I 

had very little knowledge of, and anybody who is in business knows 

that books are probably one of the most important things to grasp. 

So, that was really important. It was one-on-one training. They 

matched 50 percent of the program. So, that was something that 

I could not have afforded on my own. 

I started with that. They helped with a Web site, as well, 50 percent towards the Web site, producing the Web site. So, again, something that we could not have afforded, starting a new business on 

our own, and a combination of those two things really pushed us 

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forward to a place that we would not have been able to get to financially on our own. 

They also helped us with a line of credit in our first year, which 

we attempted multiple times to get a line of credit and got denied, 

and, the SBA helped us to get a line of credit, which helped us to 

purchase materials which, obviously, allowed us to float things 

longer and really get on our feet. That was all within probably the 

first two years. 

And then, after that, they have provided us with an advisor, basically, who comes in, looks at our books, and then, in turn, will 

guide us on where we should go, what we should think about next, 

because we are young business owners and this is our first venture 

in business. He really keeps us on track and lets us know what to 

think about next and where we should go from there. And, again, 

that service, in general, has really guided us through this whole 

process. 

This will be our eighth year of business and we are going strong, 

and, you know, we are actually venturing out into other things, as 

well, since this has grown. It is providing for our family wonderfully, and we could not be more grateful for the services. We continue to use the services along the way. 

As far as anything that could be bettered, I have a really hard 

time coming up with anything that I could complain about with the 

service. A lot of the programs that I know you guys are concerned 

about are things that were not available when I got out, so the program from getting out, to what information you get, to 

transitioning that to a home state as opposed to just the bases 

where you get out, those things were not available when I got out, 

so I have a hard—you know, I cannot really testify on that, but—— 

[The prepared statement of Mrs. Nowosielski follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Okay. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Tansey. 

STATEMENT OF ALBERT TANSEY, PRESIDENT, TANSEY 

ELECTRIC, MANCHESTER, NH 

Mr. TANSEY. Good morning, Senators. It is with great honor that 

I am afforded the opportunity to address the Committee on behalf 

of veterans’ members and the Veterans’ Business Owner Initiative. 

It is also a great honor to be sitting in between two Marine veterans. 

The Veterans’ Business Owner Initiative is an organization I 

hold dear to my heart, and I am not alone. The VBOI is established 

to assist veterans facing physical and emotional challenges and run 

successful business ventures, giving veterans an organized environment, encouraging them to develop skills in management, operations, and financial planning. 

As you are all aware, there are many government-funded programs that give veterans access to building loans, business loans, 

and most needed moral support. We as an organization strive to 

create a safe haven for veterans to dream of entrepreneurship and 

give them the tools they need to get there. 

You may be wondering how I know so much about the VBOI and 

the local success story. I am a small veteran business owner myself 

and I am personally connected to the organization as their president. 

I did not have the easiest life after service, a common story 

among veterans. I joined the Army in 1977, was discharged in 

1980. I immediately went into the Army National Guard, but felt 

that disconnect from the service and I reenlisted back in the 

United States Navy under the advanced weapons program—electronics program. I was discharged in 1985. 

Like many veterans, I was unsure of what to do. I was able to 

get back into the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers 

in my hometown in 1985. And over the next 23 years, I worked as 

a union electrician and basically worked for other people in different shops from time to time. 

In 1997, I moved up to New Hampshire and I moved my trade 

and assets up to New Hampshire, in Manchester. Over the next 

several years, I worked for a couple of contractors, at which time 

I decided I was going to venture off on my own. A customer I was 

working with locally suggested that I not retire and start my own 

business. 

At that point, I ventured into my local SBA and met Miguel Morales and he suggested going to a veteran roundtable that was 

hosted in Nashua, New Hampshire, and Miguel and Ray Milano 

and a few others, and at that point, I met Gerald Pinsky from the 

Veterans Association who was there to support the SBA on their 

ability to help veterans. 

Gerald was at the meeting supporting the SBA in their mission 

to support veteran entrepreneurs. I started attending the VBOA 

classes in Manchester that were taught by Gerald. I worked my 

way through the 18 business modules. After graduation, with both 

the SBA and the VBOI’s support, I was able to put together a business plan and financial projections. With the assistance and recDeShaun on LAP51NQ082 with DISTILLER

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ommendation of both the SBA and VBOA, I approached the Radius 

Bank and received a line of credit through the Patriot Loan Act of 

$300,000 to start my business. 

I could not believe how my rapid success, with $500,000 in revenue the first year and $1.2 million revenue in the second year. I 

finally had purpose in life, a feeling that many veterans lack in 

their personal and professional lives. Taking control of my destiny 

has changed my life, and I am here today to speak for all veterans 

that lives will be changed with the help of the VBOI. 

Why the VBOI is better than most business organizations? Because we are veterans helping veterans create and start and own 

businesses. The Veterans Business Owner Initiative believes that 

the qualities that make good warriors also make good entrepreneurs. The VBOI has achieved many accomplishments since its 

inception in 2004. In 2006, with the help of Babson College students, the Empowerment Bank Loan Fund was established to provide small loans to veteran members teaching how to establish and 

maintain good credit relationships. Loans are $150 to $1,500 and 

are made in a step-wise fashion to build confidence. Over 100 loans 

have been given. All but three have been repaid. 

I could go on and on about the success stories that have emerged 

from the organization, but unfortunately, we do not have the time. 

But, I do want to stress why I am here today. 

The future of the VBOI and countless number of veterans is only 

possible with your help. The future could be bright if the VBOI can 

increase its establishment around the country, not only in New 

England. A dart thrown at a map of the U.S. will land on a spot 

where I guarantee you will find at least one dozen veterans who 

will give anything for the education opportunity I have had because 

of the cooperation of the VA and the SBA. 

With the support from the Senate, the VBOI can continue to support veterans and give back to them a return on the service they 

have given to us. With determination and thoughtful planning, we 

are optimistic about the future of the program and our role as veterans helping veterans to do more to overcome, to excel at whatever goals we choose for ourselves. 

Thank you very much for your time. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Tansey follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Thank you very much for your testimony. 

And now, we will go to Ms. Artis. 

STATEMENT OF LAURIE SAYLES ARTIS, PRESIDENT AND 

CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CIVILITY MANAGEMENT SOLUTIONS, BOWIE, MD 

Ms. ARTIS. Good morning. 

Chairman VITTER. Good morning. 

Ms. ARTIS. Thank you, Chairman Vitter, Ranking Member Shaheen, and members of the committee, for this opportunity to testify, 

and I ask that my complete testimony be entered into the records. 

My name is Laurie Sayles Artis and I established Civility Management Solutions in August of 2012 as a professional services 

company. We are a woman, minority, service-disabled, veteranowned small business, and I am also located in a HUBZone area 

in Prince George’s County, Maryland, and currently in the process 

of submitting our 8(a) package on business development. 

I was born in Chicago and joined the United States Marine Corps 

and served during Grenada, Lebanon, and Desert Storm. My job in 

the Corps was maintenance management, which means I monitor 

the management and functionality of equipment for the fighting 

Marines, like the rifles, trucks, and the radios, and I had the honor 

of preparing Reserve Marines for the possibility of serving in Operation Desert Storm. 

The development of Civility Management Solutions came from an 

opportunity that I got to work in a corporate office of a womanowned small business that was also 8(a) and HUBZone, in which 

I managed up to 128 staff nationally within eight government 

agencies totaling up to $11.5 million in contract value. And, mind 

you, when I got out of the Marine Corps, I started as a receptionist 

based on staffing agencies’ qualifications, making $17,000 a year. 

But whereas my experience of serving in the Marine Corps gave 

me courage, discipline, teamwork, and tenacity that attributed to 

my transition into the civilian workforce. It was a slow and steady 

process, but the Corps taught me to lead and survive. So, what I 

was lacking was business acumen. 

Before establishing, I went to SBA SCORE, over three years now, 

and obtained a mentor, and I was appointed a retired Major General, Fred Elam, who was just perfect. Our first meeting was, ‘‘Is 

your husband in agreement? Take courses with SBA and get an attorney and an accountant before you need them.’’ 

[Laughter.] 

If my mentor lacks expertise in any area, he refers me to another 

mentor to ensure that I get the proper insight or response. 

My highlight of the relationship with SCORE is the Washington, 

D.C., office honored me in 2015, this year, as ‘‘Client of the Year’’ 

for my entrepreneurial spirit and accomplishments. 

So, in January of 2014, I attended VWISE and experienced networking at its best with women veteran entrepreneurs. But, adding 

more substance for the training for federal and commercial contracting would be great to add value for the program. 

The VWISE National Graduate Training Conference was a big 

kick. It allowed advanced training. It gave some booth exhibits to 

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women that owned businesses and also provided for more networking opportunities for the graduates. 

It is clear that the heightened awareness in our country for veterans and veteran entrepreneurs is there. However, as of recent, I 

have spoken with Fortune 500 companies that stated it is difficult 

to find strong veteran candidates for employment and procurementready veteran-owned businesses for being a part of their supplier 

diversity office. We need more synergy in promoting veterans to the 

commercial opportunities, as I do plan to be a conduit on that and 

would appreciate the support of the program. 

I am a recent graduate of the Montgomery County, Maryland’s, 

Veteran Institute of Procurement, and they are doing an excellent 

job of training veteran-owned businesses that are already procurement-ready for doing work with the federal government. They are 

slowly doing it, and they are the only ones out there who are doing 

it. 

During my training, I had a group exercise for responding to 

sources sought, also called an RFI request for information, and 

since graduation, my company has been awarded work with the 

Department of the Army because I was able to respond to their 

sources sought due to the training. And, the work was set aside for 

a service-disabled veteran-owned small business, and we went after 

it and won. 

So, I suggest that they become an authorized program as opposed 

to just being a grantee. 

Lastly, as an officer on the Veteran Entrepreneurship Task Force 

Committee, which is a non-federal community group that advocates 

for veteran-owned small businesses that offers recommendations 

and advice to Congress, government, and other entities also providing training to us, I have been affiliated for the past three years 

and have received much support, guidance, and information relative to being in business with the federal government by attending their monthly meetings. 

Again, thanks for the opportunity to share my experience with 

the committee on veteran entrepreneurship programs. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Artis follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Great. Thanks to all of you for your excellent 

insight and testimony. 

Because of her schedule and requirement to leave in a little bit, 

I will turn first to Senator Shaheen. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I want to start, Mr. Tansey, with you. You talked about the importance of the roundtable with other veterans in helping to encourage you to actually make the jump to go out on your own. Can 

you talk about how important that is for veterans everywhere, as 

you talk about the sort of support for getting direction for what you 

might want to do when you get out of the service? 

Mr. TANSEY. Yes, Senator. Thank you. I know for myself, the 

SBA was an integral part of myself getting started, but joining the 

Veteran Business Owner Association Group locally, the veteran-toveteran peer networking, there is something about when I left the 

service—and I speak for myself, but I know I speak for a lot of veterans—when we leave the service, there is what I call the service 

disconnect, and we feel like we do not belong ‘‘out here’’ and there 

is that longing to belong to something. 

What I found inside my group is that the veterans meeting with 

other veterans, it is not just the peer-to-peer network as far as 

growing the business intelligence, but also the veterans helping 

each other talk about problems they may have in their current 

lives. And, it helps boost the morale and the confidence. 

One of the important things about—you know, I bring a lot of 

veterans—I tried to bring a lot of veterans into my businesses. Veterans already have the package. We just have to learn how to open 

it up. Most veterans are conditioned to adverse conditions, to strive 

to make sure that the mission is completed at all costs. And once 

they have the respect and the honor, they are very loyal. We call 

it, we have your six. It is a proven fact. 

Senator SHAHEEN. So, you talked about going into SBA and the 

support you got there. Are there ways in which we can do a better 

job of helping reach out more to veterans so that they know that 

SBA is there and that it is available to help when people have an 

idea or want to start a business? 

Mr. TANSEY. Yes. I am currently working with Miguel Morales, 

my local SBA interaction up there in Manchester, who goes to 

Pease Air Force Base from time to time to give the boost to business talk, and I call it the Charlie Brown effect. When people are 

leaving the service, all they hear is wah-wah-wah-wah-wah. Let me 

out the door. 

[Laughter.] 

So, I was instrumental in helping with Jerry. We put together 

a pamphlet for the VBOI that he can hand to the individual so they 

can have it in their packet. I am going to be working with him here 

closely to put together a packet so the individual, when he leaves 

the service, has something to hold onto that within two, three 

weeks afterwards, when the dust settles, he has got numbers he 

can call, people he can come to, because it is instrumental that he 

come back to ground. 

Senator SHAHEEN. I think that is a great idea, and thinking 

about how we can do that kind of outreach through SBA is really 

important. 

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Mr. TANSEY. It is very important at all the programs, the SBA, 

the PTAP, the VA, the VBOI, all start talking to each other. I 

mean, they all have wonderful assets. They all have wonderful programs. What we need to do is combine them all together to get 

them talking. Get the conversation open and see what happens. I 

think you will be surprised. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you. 

To our other two panelists, Ms. Artis and Ms. Nowosielski, I was 

very pleased to see that we have two female veteran-owned business representatives here, because as you are probably aware, unfortunately, women veterans are under-represented in terms of 

starting their own businesses. So, I wonder if you could talk about 

how we could increase awareness among female veterans about the 

assistance that might be available and encourage them to take 

those great ideas, like both of you have done, and start their own 

business? Either one. 

Ms. ARTIS. Thank you. It is odd, by the way, to have two women 

Marines in a room, because I have actually gone on a boat cruise 

with veterans. It was 192. I was the only woman veteran on that 

cruise. So, it is a pleasure to be here with her. 

But, as far as having more visibility, I would say that—I know 

that they have the TAP programs out there. Thank goodness now 

for the Internet, when comparison to the time that I got out, that 

stuff did not exist, that they need to incorporate more information 

there, because a lot of veterans are getting out thinking to start 

their business in this generation, whereas that was not my 

thought. It was more about I just need a job. I wanted to put a suit 

on and go to work. 

So, now the pace has picked up, and there is a huge women’s 

movement that is going on. There are a lot of nonprofits that exist. 

So, it is just a matter of someone spending the time to kind of 

bringing all those entities together, or at least getting on their 

mailings, getting in their e-mail world, so that they can be informed of what the SBA is offering. 

I, myself, personally, am a huge mentor and I am sharing all the 

time. One of the first things I ask, do you have a SCORE mentor, 

and if they tell me no, then I advise them how to get one. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you. I would point out that Senator 

Ernst, who just left, is also an ex-Marine, so we actually had three 

in the room today. 

Ms. ARTIS. That is amazing. 

Senator SHAHEEN. And, can I just ask, Mrs. Nowosielski, do you 

have anything to add to that about, as somebody who came out a 

little later and was starting up, what was most helpful to you? 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. I would definitely agree with both Mr. 

Tansey and Ms. Artis on the TAP program. When exiting, they give 

you a ton of information. There was a lot of literature, and for myself, I made a giant packet, because I did do the Charlie Brown effect. You do not hear anything. You are just ready to go. 

And, so, you get out there, and I probably still have it in a file 

somewhere, where it was just a giant pile of information, and I did 

go back through it when I was ready to consume it and use that 

guidance, and I think that is how I ended up at the SBA, because 

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19 

it was in there. So, it absolutely is there. You just have to want 

it and you have to want to go for it. 

I think that one of the things that a lot of folks do is they end 

up in the medical facility, the VA medical facility, and I think that 

maybe that might be a really good place to connect and be given 

information again at one point, and they do have a ton of information there, as well. 

The Web sites are helpful, obviously. We get out there and we 

just surf. I found a lot of my own information that way. You just 

go from one place to another to another, connecting. But, the information is there. It is there. You just have to look for it. 

Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you all very much. My time has expired. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman VITTER. Thank you, and we will go to Senator Hirono. 

I will wait until last. Senator. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all 

for coming to testify. 

I am a member, also, of the Veterans Committee as well as the 

Armed Services Committee, so I am very focused on the transition 

from active to veteran status, and I have heard from meeting with 

veterans all across my state that the TAP—that is a lot of information given to you pretty much in a very condensed way when all 

you are thinking about is leaving, transitioning out. And, I think 

you make a good point that there needs to be other—maybe the 

rest of you also agree—that there needs to be other points at which 

this information is readily available to the veterans. 

Mr. Tansey, you mentioned that there are all these different programs and they should be talking to each other and you do not see 

that happening in the way that would be beneficial for veterans 

who seek this kind of information. 

Mr. TANSEY. Yes. I do see some talking back and forth, but as 

a personal note, I see different programs out there. Everybody is 

pining to be the next best thing for the veterans’ needs. 

Senator HIRONO. Mm-hmm. 

Mr. TANSEY. So, some things get lost in the translation for the 

different programs. I am just a conduit to try to take in, bring all 

the assets to bear. SBA was an integral part of me starting my 

business and they have great assets. Part of the issue for the SBA 

in my state is they say, you know, they need the support from the 

outside world. So, my organization, I encourage all my members to 

support the SBA, to get that interaction back and forth, to get that 

communications open. 

Senator HIRONO. So, the SBA is in every state, but, for example, 

I have some experience with SBA’s, the Small Business Development Centers, and those can be in different communities. I am 

wondering whether—and that is kind of a one-stop place for just 

people who are interested in starting small businesses, not necessarily a veteran-focused one-stop center. Are there any of these 

veterans programs that can serve as more of a one-stop center for 

veterans who are interested in starting their businesses, of all the 

different programs that are out there? Any of you? 

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Mr. TANSEY. I know for myself, as President of the Veterans 

Business Owner Initiative, currently, we have been going for about 

10 years—— 

Senator HIRONO. Are you in every state? 

Mr. TANSEY. No. Right now, we are only in New England. That 

is pretty much why I brought packets down—— 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. 

Mr. TANSEY [continuing]. Because I want to be in every state. 

What I would really love to do is to interact with the SBA. SBA 

is already in place. They already know the contacts. All we need 

to do is talk, and—— 

Senator HIRONO. So, how is your organization supported, then? 

You are only—— 

Mr. TANSEY. We are self-supported. We are a 501(c)—— 

Senator HIRONO. Okay. 

Mr. TANSEY [continuing]. So, we are actually looking for funding 

to start a pilot program for two years. We would love to have 10 

locations over two years with a small funding just to see how the 

program goes along before it actually gets, you know, totally funded. We are a 501(c), so—it is veterans taking pride in their own organization to help other veterans. 

Senator HIRONO. So, there are federally supported programs that 

you are also familiar with. Would you like to respond? 

Ms. ARTIS. Yes, ma’am. There are—actually, the VWISE is something that SBA has funded. I understand that VIP, as well, is kind 

of as a grant scenario. They should be authorized, though, because 

they provide something that nowhere else can we get, because it 

is for ready companies for federal government work, meaning they 

would like for you to have three employees. They would like for you 

to have already some funds on the books. Then when you go, of 

course, you are getting knowledge that you can apply immediately 

and be able to bounce off what you have already set up to what 

the experts are saying about what you are doing and being able to 

come away with really improving what your organization has to 

offer. 

But, I really need to echo one thing that he has stated that is 

very true. We can be a little territorial as veterans, meaning that 

veterans supporting veterans is a much bigger deal for us, seasoned veterans like him and I, specifically—I notice he is a little 

younger—because we have been through a lot already to get 

through the transition. And many of the newer veterans, you know, 

they have to become civilians first. Veteran, civilian, the same 

thing, because that process takes a while. I do not know when I 

stopped saying, ‘‘I am going to the head.’’ 

[Laughter.] 

And, I was working in a professional environment before I 

switched over to going to the bathroom, so that is my comment. 

Senator HIRONO. My time is running out, but I just wanted to 

ask, would it be a good idea for us to try and bring all of these various programs together, at least under—if not physically under one 

roof, at least under one Web site that you could go to and that you 

could see all of the array of assistance? Is there such a place right 

now on the Internet that you could go to? 

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Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. I do not know of a place, but I do like the 

SBDC connection with the whole thing. There are a lot of veterans, 

and because they are housed at the universities, when a lot of us 

get out, we end up using our G.I. Bill, and we are looking for 

things and it is there. And, I like the idea of having it connected 

at that point, whatever programs are available. They have a direct, 

you know, connection. I have used the SCORE program, as well, 

which is a wonderful, wonderful program which the SBDC pointed 

me in their direction. I signed up for their Web sites, and they send 

out when they have meetings and different things and you can attend. So, I think that that is a great, great core place—— 

Senator HIRONO. SBA—— 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI [continuing]. If you are looking for one spot— 

the SBDCs, the local—— 

Senator HIRONO. Okay. Thank you. 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman VITTER. Thank you, and we will go to Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate 

the witnesses being here today and for their testimony. 

I wanted to ask you about access to capital. What challenges did 

you face getting access to capital as small businesses? Do you think 

military members have unique challenges there? What are some of 

the things that we can do to help with that? 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. I think that unique challenges—I would not 

say anything unique other than what a non-veteran would experience. But, just like any small business in that first year, they want 

to see that you have legs to stand on and nobody does at the beginning. So, it was very hard. 

The way that we ended up with a line of credit in our first year 

of business was that it just so happened a person at a bank needed 

the products that we had. There was no-one local selling them at 

the time. And, she just really went to bat for us. It took one person 

to stand up for us, and she got us an SBA line of credit for $50,000 

and that is what got us started. But, I had been to multiple banks 

up until that point and was denied multiple times. 

Senator CANTWELL. Any of the other witnesses? 

Mr. TANSEY. I know for myself, I believe I have the last of the 

American Patriot Loan Act. Unfortunately, it helped me get my 

business going, my line of credit, $300,000. It was instrumental in 

me getting my business going. But, it was what I had to do to get 

that loan. As a veteran, not only did I have to throw up 100 percent collateral—my house, my retirement, the whole nine—I had to 

take a life insurance policy out. The only thing I did not have to 

give was a child, for just a small loan. And, after researching that 

loan, we found that the Patriot Loan had a very large failure rate. 

So, I know my organization, we are talking back and forth about 

something a little different, a loan package for veterans, for veterans. We are working in the avenues of trying to start our own 

intermediary bank, so—— 

Senator CANTWELL. And, what would that do? What size would 

you be looking at? 

Mr. TANSEY. Uh—— 

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Senator CANTWELL. For, like, starter loans? 

Mr. TANSEY. For starter loans? 

Senator CANTWELL. What range, yes? 

Mr. TANSEY. Ten to $20,000, $30,000 for starters, but it could go up to $150,000, depending on the entrepreneur, their record, basically on their credit scores. But, it would be a loan for the veteran, 

the customer, me the customer, not the banks. Having to put up— 

most veterans put up their lives on a ticket. 

We sign an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. 

And when we come back—we put our lives on hold for many, many 

years, some 10, 20 years. So, they do not have the ability to build 

that credit establishment when they come out. So, they are starting 

like a green bean coming out of high school. So, they do not have 

the greatest credit score. They do not have the credit history, so it 

is hard for them. 

Senator CANTWELL. Or the private sector work experience. 

Mr. TANSEY. Or work experience, exactly. 

Senator CANTWELL. Sometimes you get somebody who works in 

a field and then decides to spin off and go their own route, but they 

do not have that, here is five years where I worked in this sector. 

Mr. TANSEY. And, actually, that is all highlight points that the 

bankers look at and say, well, this is a high-risk loan, so we are 

going to attach so much to it, and we should not have that. 

Senator CANTWELL. So, it is the collateral that—so, you are looking for ways to have things without a high level of—— 

Mr. TANSEY. Collateral. 

Senator CANTWELL [continuing]. Collateral, yes. 

Mr. TANSEY. Exactly. 

Senator CANTWELL. Okay. Ms. Artis. 

Ms. ARTIS. Actually, ma’am, I can say that is still a problem. I 

do not have financing. I have been just blessed with the whole family-friend scenario. But, I do know that is one of the biggest challenges. I am one of the younger companies here on the table. That 

is still a continuous challenge among my peers that I speak to. 

That is the biggest challenge, is getting the capital to fund the professional services that they offer. 

Senator CANTWELL. And are you thinking the same range that 

Mr. Tansey was talking about? 

Ms. ARTIS. Yes. Actually, that range would be a safe range, specifically in the services that we provide, because we are just waiting for the government to pay us for the services that our staff may 

have already provided to them. So, we just need that float money 

between pay periods. 

Senator CANTWELL. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know you 

have a second panel that you want to also get to. 

Chairman VITTER. Yes. Thank you. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. Thank you to the witnesses. 

Chairman VITTER. Thank you very much. 

I have a few questions. Ms. Nowosielski, I know you went into 

this somewhat, but specifically, what were some of your biggest 

challenges as a transitioning service member, coming out of the 

service and thinking about business? 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. The biggest challenge was probably funding 

and figuring out how to get money in order to make money. And 

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then going to school and juggling with an education through all of 

those things. 

Challenges, probably the financial aspect of it. We just grew 

slow. We started really small and we spent—what we made, we 

spent, and then we grew, you know, over a period of seven years. 

We just had to take a slow route as opposed to getting money to 

do bigger things. There were many projects that we had to pass up 

because we did not have the capital to do them at the time. 

Chairman VITTER. Right. So, single biggest challenge was capital—— 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Probably, yes, sir. 

Chairman VITTER [continuing]. And funding to get started as a 

business. 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Yes, sir. 

Chairman VITTER. Okay. And, after you were initially started, 

what were some of the continuing issues that SBDC, in particular, 

helped you with? 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. Education was the biggest thing that I received help with. We received a business advisor through the 

SBDC who came in and broke down books and explained to us how 

to read financials and how to navigate through what we should 

spend and what we should not spend, and what we could afford 

and not afford. They also came in and helped. We do light manufacturing, so they helped us to set up our assembly line in an efficient manner. They helped us to find used equipment, things like 

that, that was affordable for us at the time so that we could pick 

up production and produce more. And those things were extremely 

valuable to us. 

Chairman VITTER. Great. Okay. 

I know that SBA tries to create sort of a whole network of support for veterans’ business owners. In your personal experience, 

how would you grade that sort of network? 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. I think I would grade it an A. I think it is 

wonderful. I had no problems. Everything that I asked for was provided and then some. I was never told no or turned away. If they 

could not provide it, they gave me a point of contact where I could 

get the help. 

Chairman VITTER. Okay. 

Mrs. NOWOSIELSKI. I have zero complaints. 

Chairman VITTER. Great. Okay. 

Mr. Tansey, I think you have dealt with VBOI as well as SBA, 

right? 

Mr. TANSEY. Yes. 

Chairman VITTER. How would you compare them, and is there 

duplication? Is there overlap or duplication that is counterproductive? 

Mr. TANSEY. Well, I believe the SBA and the Boost to Business 

program, I did not go through that program, but working with 

Miguel, I get the logistics of it. 

The VBOA basically is an 18-class module starting from conception all the way up to financial and out the door business planning. 

So, we were able to build a business plan. The SBA also provides 

this kind of support, but what I found is that the veteran-to-veteran peer networking within the group—the group dynamics is 

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what has changed my attitude as far as what is better and what 

is worse than others. VBOA groups themselves, you have to experience. As the President of the VBOA, I invite each and every one 

of the panelists to come to one of our meetings in Massachusetts 

or New Hampshire, you know, an open invite, to see the difference 

in the lives of the veterans as they transition back. 

Basically, there are a lot of veterans out there that are having 

issues with post-traumatic stress, alcohol, drug-related issues, the 

pill pop from the Veterans Administration to help quiet the voices 

in the head. Coming back to the group, I see time and time again 

those people getting off the medications and getting back into the 

real world. It is real time. It is real. But, I do not want to push 

away the SBA, because the SBA has always been an intricate part 

of my business. 

Chairman VITTER. Right. 

Mr. TANSEY. It still is. 

Chairman VITTER. Right. Okay. Thank you very much. 

Let me go to Senator Ayotte. 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you, Chairman. It is really an honor to 

have you here, Mr. Tansey, and thank you for coming today, and 

congratulations on being named the New England Veteran-Owned 

Small Business of the Year. That is terrific. I am glad to hear that 

you have been able to grow with the help of the Veterans’ Business 

Owners Initiative. 

I know that you have already testified, but I also understand 

that you were the first Veterans’ Business Owners Initiative member in New Hampshire to reach $1 million in sales. 

Mr. TANSEY. That is correct. 

Senator AYOTTE. That is fantastic. And, I know this started in 

New England and that one of the things you have told this committee today is that this program has been effective and we should 

expand it nationwide. What can we do, do you think, to be able to 

take what has happened in New England and really scale it up nationwide, and what—I know you have probably already talked 

about this, but—what do you think is the most important tool that 

is part of this program? You talked about the peer-to-peer mentoring aspect of it. 

As you know, Senator Shaheen and I work together on a lot of 

these veterans issues, whether it is the health care issue that we 

are trying to make sure that our veterans in New Hampshire get 

more access to health care because we do not have a full-service 

hospital, and wanting to make sure that whatever we are doing is 

the best to have that local connection, because I think that is probably why it has been so effective for you and helpful for the veterans. So, just any thoughts for us on how we can take what you 

are seeing and make it for everyone to have that opportunity. 

Mr. TANSEY. Thank you, Senator. It is good to see you again. 

Senator AYOTTE. Great to see you. 

Mr. TANSEY. I am happy to see a couple supports for the womenowned initiative in New Hampshire. I support the SBA on women’s 

issues, also. 

Senator AYOTTE. Yes. Fantastic. 

Mr. TANSEY. The VBOI, basically, we have an idea how we can 

take this model. We have a model already set in place. We have 

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25 

the numbers all put together. And, I would love the support of the 

Senate or Senate subcommittees to take a look at our numbers, to 

present a pilot program to where we could reach out to 10 cities 

for pilot for two years and see how it goes. 

Senator AYOTTE. Mm-hmm. 

Mr. TANSEY. But, my experience, the peer-to-peer mentorship between the veterans, whether it is man-on-man or woman-onwoman, we have women businesses in our group already, so—— 

Senator AYOTTE. Yeah. 

Mr. TANSEY [continuing]. It needs to get out there. We need your 

help. 

Senator AYOTTE. Absolutely. So, I have a question for you. One 

of the issues that we have been hearing a lot, too, on, because I 

serve on the Armed Services Committee, as well, is, so, veterans, 

in terms of the experience they come out of the military with, we 

know that that experience, incredible in terms of the training, the 

leadership skills, the ability to work with other people. But, often, 

how you put—let me use an example. You have been a sniper. How 

does that translate into a job description that an employer can understand so that we can make sure that veterans get hired more? 

And, so, wanting to make sure—like, much of the training that 

you get in the military—it is often that private employers—veterans do not know how to translate that, or private employers, 

frankly, are not translating this incredible skill set of our veterans 

so that they know what our veterans are capable of so we can get 

more veterans hired. 

I just wanted to get your thought on that. I mean, you come to 

this, obviously, with having served and having that experience of 

the peer-to-peer, but getting that issue of translation of skills so 

that we can get more veterans hired, I just wanted to get your 

thought on that. 

Mr. TANSEY. It is basic military training. As we transpire 

through military training, it is drawn into us to lead by example 

and to expect the unexpected. Most veterans in a cohesive unit 

group know what the guy to the left and the guy to the right does. 

And in the case of troubling times and that person is no longer 

there, we can take up the slack. As a leader of a unit, you become 

in-tuned to exactly the needs and the attributes of each one of your 

members and you learn how to key off those assets to trigger that 

veteran to the next level. 

Unfortunately, in the business world, it is do or die. We want it 

done. Why is it not done yet? So, the business owner in the real 

world does not really understand the concept of what goes through 

a military mind, because it is droned into us, it is driven into us, 

it is reactive. What I see time and time again is veterans coming 

back to veterans, and we can key off on those key points because 

we know them, and we take them to the next level of confidence. 

And, once a military member that has been trained hits that confidence level, you cannot stop them. 

Senator AYOTTE. Right. I am a little partial, because I am married to a veteran. He has his own business, so I see that. 

[Laughter.] 

But, I think getting that word out, whatever we can do to get the 

word out to employers, private employers, so that they are hiring 

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26 

more veterans, would be terrific. So, any thoughts down the line 

you have for us on that, I would really appreciate it. 

Ms. ARTIS. I would like to add, snipers and individuals that have 

interesting jobs in the military that kind of have more of a difficulty transitioning, apprenticeship programs and training, specifically now all these certifications that they have out here in IT, at 

this point, all service members are operating on computers. They 

have e-mail addresses, things, again, that did not happen in our 

era. But, nonetheless, they are very techy. So, those types of programs need to be elaborated on, and the G.I. Bill funds need to be 

allocated for them to be able to use that for those sources, not just 

a typical four-year degree, because you are 30, 40 years old and you 

are not about to go to school—or do not desire—— 

Senator AYOTTE. I totally agree. There are actually a lot of great 

advanced manufacturing jobs where you need those skill sets and 

the pay is good, so we can transition to that. That is not a fouryear degree, but getting those skills, so I appreciate it. 

Ms. ARTIS. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator AYOTTE. Thank you. 

Chairman VITTER. Great. Thank you all very much. We really 

appreciate your testimony here, as well as everything you are submitting for the record. 

We will now move on to our second panel, and as they get in 

place, I will go ahead and start introducing them. 

Ms. Barbara Carson is the Acting Associate Administrator for 

the Office of Veterans Business Development at the SBA. She is responsible for veteran-related programs for active duty and reserve 

service members, service-disabled veterans, and military dependents and survivors. 

Dr. Michael Haynie is the Vice Chancellor of Syracuse University, responsible for veteran and military affairs. Dr. Haynie also 

serves as the Founding Executive Director of Syracuse University’s 

Institute for Veterans and Military Families and as the Barnes 

Professor of Entrepreneurship. Before beginning his academic career, he served for 14 years as an officer in the United States Air 

Force. 

Mr. Scott Daugherty is also a U.S. Army veteran. He serves as 

the Assistant Vice Chancellor for Economic Development at North 

Carolina State University and the State Director of the Small Business Technology Center, which provides confidential business advisory services and educational programs for existing businesses and 

start-ups. And, in 2011, he was also appointed by Governor Beverly 

Perdue to serve as North Carolina’s first Small Business Commissioner and was a part of the Senior Management Team of the Department of Commerce there. 

And, Mr. Charles McCaffrey has served in the U.S. Navy, including the Navy Reserve Officers Training Corps and on the President’s National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee 

Cybersecurity Collaboration Task Force. He now serves as a Director of the Veterans Business Outreach Center in Springfield, Virginia. 

Welcome to all of you. Just like the last panel, you will be invited 

to testify here for five minutes each, and, of course, your entire 

written testimony will be made a permanent part of the record. 

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So, we will start with Ms. Carson. Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF BARBARA CARSON, ACTING ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF VETERANS BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION 

Ms. CARSON. Good morning, Chairman Vitter and Ranking Member Shaheen and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the U.S. Small Business Administration’s 

continuing efforts to empower veteran entrepreneurship and small 

business ownership. 

We do this by executing programs and policies that maximize the 

availability of SBA services for veterans, service members, and 

their spouses. We are grateful for this committee’s continued support of SBA’s programs to provide training and counseling, access 

to capital, and federal procurement opportunities for our nation’s 

heroes and job creators. 

As small business owners, veterans continue to serve our country 

by creating critical employment opportunities and driving economic 

growth. They possess the skills, discipline, and leadership to start 

and operate successful businesses in their communities. In fact, 

veterans over-index in entrepreneurship and are at least 45 percent more likely than those with no active duty military experience 

to be self-employed. Nearly one in 10 small businesses are veteranowned, and these businesses generate over $1.2 trillion in receipts 

annually and employ nearly 5.8 million Americans. 

SBA’s programs are making a significant positive impact to ensure that we create the next greatest generation of veteran small 

business owners. This year, to provide training and counseling, we 

executed on our first appropriation for Boots to Business, the entrepreneurship track of the DOD’s Transition Assistance Program, 

known as TAP. This has trained over 27,000 transitioning service 

members and their spouses to date. 

Working through the interagency governance of TAP, we are extending Boots to Business to all active duty service members and 

spouses at any point during their service through the Military 

Lifecycle Strategy. And, with support and active participation from 

the private sector, nonprofit NSBA resource partners, we are extending this program to veterans of every era and their families 

through a program we call Boots to Business Reboot. 

For access to capital, we will sustain the SBA’s Veterans Advantage Policy to waive fees for veterans and their families that qualify for SBA guaranteed loans of $350,000 and below, and reduce 

fees by half for SBA guaranteed loans between $350,000 and $5 

million. This policy has already saved veterans over $8.6 million in 

fees since January 1, 2014. 

In the area of federal contracting, we are very pleased to report 

that the SBA’s leadership will soon announce that the federal government exceeded the three percent goal for contracting with service-disabled, veteran-owned small businesses for the third straight 

year. 

We continue to provide funding to programs for our severely disabled veterans, called the Entrepreneurship Boot Camp for Veterans with Disabilities, as well as programs for women veterans, 

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called the Veteran Women Igniting the Spirit of Entrepreneurship 

program. 

OVBD’s commitment to its mission extends to and is enabled by 

our partners. Our network of 15 Veteran Business Outreach Centers, known as VBOCs, is the cornerstone of our delivery model. 

These VBOCs serve as providers and integrators of business assistance and maintain the expertise to refer veterans to other federal 

and local service providers, as well. In many cases, VBOCs are extensions of SBA’s business offices and assist SBA employees assigned as Veteran Business Development Officers. 

Our 15 VBOCs extend the services nationwide by collaborating 

extensively within SBA’s network of resource partners, which also 

includes Small Business Development Centers, Women’s Business 

Centers, and SCORE. This collaboration allows VBOCs to maximize SBA’s integration of service and knowledge for veterans, as 

exemplified by the VBOC Directors who will testify today. 

Our partnership model also extends to other veteran entrepreneurship centers of excellence, such as the Institute for Veterans 

and Military Families at Syracuse University, who is also appearing today. 

SBA’s innovative private partnership framework enables our effectiveness, and importantly, our efficiency. Our collaboration produces success stories like Mr. Timothy Page. After serving 27 years 

on active duty in the U.S. Army, Tim attended Boots to Business 

at Fort Meade in Maryland as the first step of his transition mission to pursue small business ownership. His idea was to create 

eco-friendly car washes that he calls Auto Spas, and through the 

facilitation of Mr. Mark Williams and SBA’s Boots to Business Program, he was introduced to Ms. Melissa Dent, who is a counselor 

at the Maryland Small Business Development Center, who helped 

him develop a business plan. 

Just this past May, Tim competed in a business plan competition 

that was privately funded specifically for Boots to Business graduates, and that is where he won first place and $30,000 in seed 

capital. His first Auto Spa will open in Forestville, Maryland, in 

the spring of next year. 

While Tim’s story is a great example of how our programs and 

partners integrate to empower veteran entrepreneurship, it also 

highlights a gap that we must address, and that is access to capital. We can and must do more to get capital, and in particular 

start-up or seed capital, into the hands of veterans like Tim. We 

must also strengthen and modernize our information technology infrastructure so that we may sustain our programs and make SBA 

more accessible. 

In addition, we must enable data sharing between SBA and federal agencies, such as the Departments of Defense, Labor, and Veterans Affairs, as well as external partners. This will allow us to 

synchronize our efforts, connect veterans and military spouses with 

the resources they need, and report on essential performance outcomes, such as business formation, capital acquired, and the creation of jobs. 

Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and to highlight 

our mission. By authorizing our work, you are mandating that the 

United States government does all it should to provide the AmerDeShaun on LAP51NQ082 with DISTILLER

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ican dream of business ownership to those who have fought and 

continue to fight every day for our country. 

Thank you, sir. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Carson follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Great. Thank you very much, Ms. Carson. 

And now, we will move to Dr. Haynie. 

STATEMENT OF J. MICHAEL HAYNIE, VICE CHANCELLOR, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, AND DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR VETERANS AND MILITARY FAMILIES 

Mr. HAYNIE. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank 

you very much for the opportunity to spend a little time talking 

about an issue that is a personal passion of mine. As both a military veteran and also an entrepreneurship professor, veteran business ownership really does represent for me the nexus of two passions. 

Beyond my written testimony, I think what I will spend my time 

doing is just reflecting on just how far I think we have come as a 

community over the course of the last eight years or so. 

I left active duty service in 2006. I was fortunate that while I 

was a serving Air Force officer, the Air Force sent me off to get a 

Ph.D. in business strategy and entrepreneurship, so I made my 

transition from military service directly to a role at Syracuse University as an entrepreneurship professor and found myself in a situation where I saw an opportunity to leverage that new role in 

service to the only professional community that I had ever known, 

which were military and veterans. 

I created a program in Syracuse in 2007 called the Entrepreneurship Boot Camp for Veterans with Disabilities, a program designed 

to empower our wounded warriors who may face barriers to traditional employment as a consequence of some of the disability challenges that they may face so that they could leverage self-employment as a path forward. 

I share that story only to suggest, at the time, there was very 

little focus on business ownership, particularly institutionalized 

focus on business ownership, as a path through the transition process. And, I know that because the very first opportunity I had to 

go talk to some soldiers about this new program that we were trying to create was several months prior to the first offering. I went 

to Walter Reed and about 200 soldiers in a Wednesday morning 

Commander’s Call in a gym and talked to them about business 

ownership, and after I was finished, one of the vocational counselors there spent some time scolding me about talking to 

transitioning soldiers about business ownership because it is too 

hard and they are going to fail. 

I, again, share that story only as a means to reflect on the fact 

that today, with the introduction, for example, of Boots to Business, 

we now have institutionalized a path to the transition to civilian 

life focused on business ownership in a way that is very, very powerful, and, I think, empowering to this community. 

We look at programs like the EBV program I mentioned, the 

VWISE program. In my two minutes, I will also share that VWISE 

is a program that was created in 2010 at the request of the Small 

Business Administration, but as an entrepreneurship professor, 

that first conversation, I pushed back a little bit. I was not sure 

why we would create a business ownership training program specifically for women, because there is nothing necessarily that says 

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ferently than I would train a man. As a veteran, I jumped right 

to veterans, our veterans. 

I could not have been more wrong, however, and I commend the 

SBA for pushing to explore that path, because one of the things I 

realized when we delivered the first program in San Antonio, 

Texas, in 2011, was that many of the women that participated, 

many of the female veterans that participated, maybe had been out 

of the military five, seven, 10, 15 years, and this was the first veterans-related event that they had ever participated in. 

And, exploring that motivation, what we found is that as a consequence of the fact that women are much less likely to self-identify as veterans, they are also much less likely to participate in typical veteran-focused events, trainings, because they will represent 

a stark minority in the context of many of those programs, and importantly, we also heard from some of those participants that they 

do not necessarily always feel safe, and when I mean—physically 

safe is what they are referring to—at some typical veterans’ events. 

The outcomes that we have realized from the VWISE program 

over the course of the last four years or so have been remarkable. 

Forty-one million in revenue was generated by businesses created 

by VWISE graduates. Sixty-five percent of those going through the 

program have created businesses. And, they are hiring, and they 

are hiring other veterans. Currently, the average number of employees from VWISE-created businesses exceeds four. That is a 

very powerful outcome for that particular program, and it is an 

outcome that actually exceeds what you would see from like training programs. 

So, with that, I will say I am excited for the opportunity to both 

work with this body, to expand opportunity for veteran business 

ownership, and I am broadly excited for the future because I think 

this is a community on the edge of really doing remarkable things 

as an engine for the economy of this country. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Haynie follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Great. Thank you, Dr. Haynie. 

And now, we will move to Mr. Daugherty. Welcome. 

STATEMENT OF SCOTT R. DAUGHERTY, ASSISTANT VICE 

CHANCELLOR FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, NORTH 

CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY, AND STATE DIRECTOR, 

NORTH CAROLINA SMALL BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Good morning. 

Chairman VITTER. Good morning. 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Mr. Chairman, Senator Hirono, I am the State 

Director of the North Carolina SBTDC. I am also here today representing the Association of Small Business Development Centers, 

which, as you know, are the 63 SBA-funded SBDCs around the 

country and across the globe. 

My remarks are really based on 30 years’ worth of working at— 

working on how to help small businesses and veteran-owned businesses be successful. I have been Chairman of our National Association multiple times, probably due to brain injury earlier in my 

life. 

[Laughter.] 

But, I have had opportunities to engage with many, many of my 

colleagues around the country. Your own SBDC Director in Louisiana, Rande Kessler, and I have been very interactive. And, I 

have a pretty good appreciation for what that resource can do. 

As you noted, I am a veteran. I am personally and deeply committed to services from whatever source that will help the women 

and men of the military find opportunities to realize the American 

dream and create a business. 

The SBDCs are actually the SBA’s largest and most impactful resource in the country for business assistance. They have an 

unrivaled national presence, multiple locations in each state and 

locality. We are viewed as highly successful. I can tell you that we 

are highly introspective, measure everything, just like in the military we used to paint rocks that did not move. We count and measure everything. We want to know why we are doing, what we are 

doing, and how we are doing. 

SBDCs have a very long and successful record of serving veterans going back to the days when the primary tool for veterans 

leaving the military was the TAP program at the military installations. That certainly has been true of our SBDC in North Carolina 

for many, many years. 

The other thing that I think is often overlooked in this process, 

and I am going to talk briefly about this in a moment, but the assistance and resources to veterans and those leaving—transitioning 

from the military is more than an educational program. It really 

is an opportunity through resources like the SBDCs to gain that 

trusted business advisor relationship with a counselor who can provide probing questions and guidance on how to move forward. 

Our own service to veterans in North Carolina is significant. We 

have a very substantial military base in our communities. Fort 

Bragg is the largest military installation in the United States. 

Camp Lejeune is the Marines’ East Coast representative. We have 

an Air Force base with an active fighter wing, and, believe it or 

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not, the largest and most busy Coast Guard air station in the 

United States. 

We have had a lot of opportunity to provide instructional support 

along with partners in the Boots to Business program around our 

State, but most important is the one-on-one counseling that we provide to the businesses. Twelve to 14 percent of our client base, 

which is around 4,200 to 4,500 counseling clients a year—12 to 14 

percent are veterans. And, that is reflective of our big military 

presence, but it is also reflective of our interest in serving them. 

To give you a little idea on the scalability of things, there are 

around 24.6 million veterans in the country and that is roughly 12 

percent of the national population. It is a declining number, 

though, as veterans from World War II and the Korean War have 

declined, and now it is my era, the Vietnam War era veterans that 

are passing on, as well. The current military is about one percent 

of our national population, and so one of the consequences is that 

we can anticipate that the actual veteran population will begin to 

decline slightly in the years ahead. 

You are considering legislation on the Small Business Development Act, and it has applicability to our ability to serve the needs 

of veterans in the years ahead. A renewed and continuing commitment to helping existing veterans and those who are transitioning 

is a very laudable and noble undertaking. I support it. I have a few 

concerns, and I would like to share just a couple of observations. 

First, the new business start-up process, which is what we have 

been talking about much of this time with the prior panel and their 

start-up experience, it is a process. You do not just wake up one 

morning, you are a successful business owner. It has four steps. 

The first is the information gathering step, where folks will independently or through some sort of program like the TAP program 

or the Boots to Business program, which they are offering at the 

various military installations, is you take in information. 

The second is kind of the processing part of it, and that is reflecting on what you have heard and learned in that preliminary environment and making some conscious decisions about do I proceed 

with a plan to start a business. 

And that is when you get to what I characterize as the action 

planning step of the process. That is typically maybe a longer-term 

educational program, like your eight-part online service, and most 

SBDCs have some sort of multi-week program. 

Chairman VITTER. Mr. Daugherty, if I can just ask you to wrap 

up. 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. All right. Anyway, so you have multiple stages. 

What I would leave you with is this. You already have a very robust service delivery network. We ought to capitalize on that and 

utilize that network for delivery of enhanced services to veterans 

and to transitioning veterans. So, I encourage you to look at the 

SBDCs as a delivery mechanism. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Daugherty follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Great. Thank you very much. 

And now, Mr. McCaffrey. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES W. McCAFFREY, DIRECTOR, VETERANS BUSINESS OUTREACH CENTER AT COMMUNITY BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP, SPRINGFIELD, VA 

Mr. MCCAFFREY. I would like to thank the members of the committee for allowing me this opportunity this morning to testify. I 

encourage the committee’s continued support of veteran entrepreneurship programs. 

As was noted earlier, I am a Navy veteran with 20 years of military and government contracting service. I am also a repeat business owner offender, if you will, first as a partner in an Italian deli 

and market in State College, Pennsylvania, more recently as a 

management consultant here in the metro D.C. area. 

When I transitioned from the military, we had a two-day program that taught you how to get veterans’ benefits, how to write 

a resume, and to tie a double Windsor. I am happy to say that we 

have expanded those programs and I am very honored to be able 

to lend my experience to assisting my fellow veterans. 

The organization I represent, Community Business Partnership, 

was founded in 1995 and is a nonprofit organization working in collaboration with local, regional, and national organizations to promote small business growth in our communities. We are a sponsored program of George Mason University under the Office of Research and Economic Development. 

We accomplish our mission through a variety of separately funded programs, including a Small Business Development Center, a 

Women’s Business Center, a Business Finance Center, and a Business Incubation Center that provide training and counseling, access to capital, low-cost office and meeting space, networking opportunities geared to meet the needs of today’s small business owners. 

On May 1 of this year, we were also designated as a Veteran Business Outreach Center for the National Capital Region, including 

Northern Virginia, Washington, D.C., Maryland, Puerto Rico, and 

the Virgin Islands. 

Although we only recently received designation as a VBOC, Community Business Partnership has a long history of supporting veteran entrepreneurship. For the past 10 years, we have hosted the 

Veterans in Business Conference. What started as a small gathering of 25 veteran business owners has grown to the premier veterans’ entrepreneurship conference in the metro D.C. area, bringing together more than 275 veteran business owners, federal agency representatives, prime contractors, nonprofits, and service providers each year. 

In 2012, we were approached by the TAP office at Marine Corps 

Base Henderson Hall to provide entrepreneurship training to 

transitioning Marines as part of the Department of Defense Entrepreneurship Pathway. At the time, Boots to Business was an unfunded program requirement that involved significant commitment 

from limited resources. But having supported socially and economically disadvantaged small business owners for many years, we 

knew this was a worthwhile initiative and we became part of the 

pilot program. 

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In 2014, Community Business Partnership, along with the SBA 

Washington District Office and its resource partners, ranked number one in the country for total number of Boots to Business classes 

held and total number of attendees. In addition, we participated in 

the Boots to Business Reboot Program held at the Eisenhower Executive Office Building with 110 attendees comprised of veterans 

and their families. 

In 2015, we are positioned to provide Boots to Business classes 

at 16 military installations and in the metro D.C. area as well as 

a Reboot program and monthly one-day intensive business plan 

bootcamps. 

In 2014, Community Business Partnership held 244 training 

events with 3,430 attendees and provided 1,119 hours of counseling 

to 413 clients. Veterans make up 11 percent of our training clients 

and 17 percent of our counseling clients, and we would not be able 

to achieve these numbers were it not for the many public and private partners that we work with, including local Chambers of Commerce, Economic Development Authorities, Objective Rally Point 

D.C., and Dog Tag Bakery, just to name a few. 

As proud as I am of the numbers representing our support of veteran entrepreneurs, it is actually their successes that really tell the 

story. Staci Redmon is a third-generation service-disabled veteran. 

After 20 years of federal service, she started Strategy and Management Services in 2008 to work in the federal contacting arena. 

Staci was a participant in the first veterans’ entrepreneurship 

mentoring group started by Fairfax SBDC in 2010, was a resident 

business at the Business Incubation Center at Community Business Partnership. She received training from our Women’s Business Center and lending assistance from our Business Finance 

Center. Through budget cuts, sequestration, and furloughs, SAMS 

has endured with the support of Community Business Partnership 

and closed their 2014 fiscal year generating $13.5 million in revenue and employing 130 individuals. 

In 2013, Staci received the Virginia Small Business Veteran of 

the Year Award from the Virginia SBDC Network, and Staci exemplifies the spirit of that award in service to her country, success in 

business, and involvement with her community. And, she also embodies the long-term commitment that the SBA resource partners 

strive for with our clients. 

Again, I thank you for the opportunity to testify today and to 

share our efforts and their successes in veteran entrepreneurship. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. McCaffrey follows:] 

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Chairman VITTER. Okay. Thank you all very much for being 

here, for your testimony, both oral and written. 

Now, we will go to Senator Hirono. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you all for testifying. What I get from all of your testimony is that we have a number of programs that are specifically 

targeting veterans, and it appears as though there is quite a lot of 

collaboration that is already occurring, so that is really good to 

know. 

I was struck by, is it Mr. Daugherty, you mentioned a four-step 

process which is too often not addressed by the various programs 

and initiatives that we have to help our veterans. I know you ran 

out of time. Did you have a suggestion as to how we can better address these four steps? 

In fact, one of the steps that I was curious about is the reflective 

part. Is there counseling, or are they the challenges of opening a 

business? Is that the point at which that kind of information would 

be helpful to the veteran? 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Yes. I think—— 

Senator HIRONO. Could you expand a little bit more? 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I think it is. The important element in the process is that training is a piece of it, reflection is a piece of it, and 

access to business advisory services to kind of sort through the options and opportunities, and how do you think through it and build 

a plan that will allow you to be successful? 

And, too many of the programs have a piece and do not have that 

other piece. You are just hoping that occurs. And, what you want 

is something that is integrated, that provides an opportunity. So, 

it could be a training program like the one you have developed, but 

there ought to be a direct connection to your business advisory resources in terms of delivery of that kind of consultative support to 

the clients. I think it would be very helpful. 

Senator HIRONO. You noted that the SBDCs, those are a nationwide SBA small business effort to help small businesses, and I am 

familiar with a couple of them in Hawaii. The SBDCs, would that 

be a setting for the kind of more complete support that you are 

talking about, Mr. Daugherty? 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Well, it exists. It is already out there. They are 

already serving veterans. And, there are lots of terrific ideas we 

heard in the first panel. They are really great. But, if you are talking about the application of very scarce federal-level resources, how 

do you get the best bang for the buck to assure that there is integration? 

Sometimes within agencies, you know, there are silos, and I am 

not—— 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. 

Mr. DAUGHERTY [continuing]. Speaking out of turn. 

Senator HIRONO. No. 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. You know, you have an office—— 

Chairman VITTER. You are not shocking us, do not worry. 

Mr. DAUGHERTY. No, exactly. 

[Laughter.] 

So, you have an Office of Small Business Development. You have 

got a veterans’ office. And then you have got this thing called field 

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operations, which is kind of disconnected from all three of them in 

terms—so you are really relying in the end at the local level, the 

goodwill of folks to make it happen as opposed to it being part of 

a strategic way to think about the delivery of service. 

Senator HIRONO. Ms. Carson, would you like to weigh in on how 

we can create a more integrated way to respond to the needs of the 

veterans who want to have their own businesses? 

Ms. CARSON. Thank you for the opportunity to do so. I think that 

I could turn to Mr. McCaffrey, as well, and say that one of the— 

we identified the same problem that Mr. Daugherty has identified, 

which is a lack of integration and then a difficulty in getting the 

word out to the veterans who need these resources. 

So, the Veteran Business Outreach Center, we just competed 14 

of those grants this spring, and the criteria within it included—it 

was heavily weighted, as well. You must show a partnership. What 

is your network? What is your knowledge of all the resources that 

are available to veteran entrepreneurs? And, it was a competitive 

process. 

So, that is in one place where we are showing that we recognize 

as an agency, a federal agency, that we absolutely do not have all 

the right ideas, nor the funds to enact them, but we do have partnerships and knowledge, and my office is accountable for knowing 

what those are across the federal space, connecting at the state 

level and local levels where it really happens. If I cannot get a local 

lender to help a veteran entrepreneur get access to capital, then 

something is not right at the higher levels. So, we are engaging at 

every level. 

And, as Mr. Daugherty said, good will is not enough in all cases. 

So, we have done things like funding our resource partners to help 

us deliver Boots to Business across the nation and around the 

world with the help of the Institute for Veterans and Military Families. 

So, I would like to say that we do hear this concern and we are 

absolutely acting on it to better integrate and optimize what is 

available for veterans, and I really want the Veteran Business Outreach Centers to be that first point, that triage, if you will, for a 

vet, that they will not have everything for everyone, but they know 

enough to transfer them to—— 

Senator HIRONO. Right now—excuse me. My time is—— 

Ms. CARSON. Sorry. 

Senator HIRONO. Oh, it is up. Do you mind if I—— 

Chairman VITTER. Go ahead. 

Senator HIRONO. A couple more minutes. So, there are only 15 

Veterans Business Outreach Centers, so I do not know where these 

15 centers are. Do you have one in Hawaii, for example? 

Ms. CARSON. No, I do not have one in Hawaii. The Women’s 

Business Development Center out of Chicago does service Hawaii 

and is already in coordination with the SBA district office there. 

Senator HIRONO. Is there an intention to have these outreach 

centers in every state, or are you working through the VBOCs? 

Ms. CARSON. The VBOCs—— 

Senator HIRONO. I mean—there are all these acronyms. SBDCs. 

[Laughter.] 

SBDCs. I know you have SBDCs in Hawaii. 

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Ms. CARSON. Currently, we are authorized and appropriated for 

15, and that is what we have. So, we make the most of that network by building upon our partnerships that also exist within SBA, 

the SBDCs, SCORE, and Women’s Business Centers to reach every 

state and territory for our veterans. 

Senator HIRONO. So, if I were to contact the SBDC on the big island, for example, which I have visited with, and started talking 

with them about the veterans business outreach efforts, they would 

be familiar with all of the resources? 

Ms. CARSON. They have been a fantastic partner in our veteran 

programs and initiatives on their own, and we are integrating them 

with the Women’s Business Development Center in Chicago, which 

just stood up. It is a recent awardee. So, together, they will service 

your veterans in Hawaii very well. 

Senator HIRONO. I just want to end by thanking all of you, particularly, Dr. Haynie, I really appreciated your commitment to 

helping the disabled veterans, and all of you, because that may be 

a very special group of veterans that we ought to provide specialized kinds of resources to, just as I thank you for your acknowledgement that women veterans should have particular programs 

that are just their needs. 

Mr. HAYNIE. You are very welcome. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman VITTER. Great. Thank you, and thanks to all of you for 

your testimony, just like our first panel. This was an important 

hearing, including because it is not in a vacuum. As I mentioned 

at the beginning, the committee is working on a bipartisan veterans’ entrepreneurship bill. We hope to mark it up next month. 

We want all of your continued input, so you will certainly get 

drafts, and please give us all of your input. Mr. Daugherty suggested some, and we want to follow up on all of that. So, thank you 

very, very much for your work. 

With that, this hearing is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 11:05 a.m., the committee was adjourned.] 

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