1 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Environmental Protection Agency 

2 

3 

4 

5 Public Meeting on 

6 Clean Power Plan 

7 Proposed Federal Plan and Model Rules 

8 Day I 

9 9:31 a.m. to 8 p.m. 

10 Thursday, November 12, 2015 

11 

12 November 12-13, 2015 

13 

14 William S. Moorhead Federal Building 

15 Room 1310 

16 1000 Liberty Avenue 

17 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
2 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 EPA Panel for Morning and Afternoon Sessions: 

2 MIKE KOERBER, Hearing Officer; and 

3 Associate Director for Policy, 

4 Office of Air and Radiation, 

5 Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 

6 MEG VICTOR, Office of Air and Radiation, 

7 Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 

8 BRIAN KEAVENY, Office of Air and Radiation, 

9 Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 

10 MICHAEL GORDON, EPA Regional Office, 

11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 

12 DAVID TALLY, EPA Regional Office, 

13 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 

14 

15 EPA Panel for Evening Session: 

16 DAVID CAMPBELL, Chair, EPA 

17 EMILY LINN 

18 ROBERT STOLTZFUS 

19 

20 

21 

22 
3 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 EDWARD PERRY, Aquatic Biologist; and 

4 Pennsylvania Outreach Coordinator, 

5 National Wildlife Federation 15 

6 JOHN NAGLE, Professor Emeritus (retired), 

7 Carnegie Mellon University 18 

8 BOB COOK, 

9 People United for Sustainable Housing 25 

10 BRENDA BARRON, 

11 Organizing Director of Keystone Progress 

12 and National People's Action 30 

13 KATHLEEN KREBS, 

14 Alliance of Nurses for a Healthy Environment 

15 and Allegheny County Clean Air Now. 36 

16 JAMIN BOGI, Group Against Smog and Pollution 40 

17 MICHAEL BETT, Member of Ben Avon Council 45 

18 CARMEN ALEXANDER, Resident of Pittsburgh 48 

19 SISTER DONNA ZWIGART, Sister of St. Francis 

20 of the Neumann Communities 53 

21 GREG KOCHANSKI 57 

22 DOUGLAS "G STYLE" MYERS, Feed Da Streetz Tour 63 
4 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 LUCY VELEZ, Resident of Buffalo, New York 71 

4 SUSAN KOEHLER, Resident of Pittsburgh 79 

5 VICKI DOBBINS, Michigan United and 

6 National People's Actions 82 

7 PATRICE TOMCIK, Field Organizer, 

8 Moms Clean Air Force 84 

9 ANNIE REGAN, 

10 Western Pennsylvania Outreach Coordinator, 

11 PennFuture 92 

12 MARGARET PARSONS, 

13 Healthy Air Campaign Coordinator, 

14 American Lung Association in Pennsylvania 96 

15 DANIEL DOUBET, Leader, Keystone Progress 102 

16 KEVIN STEWART, Director, Environmental Health 

17 Mid-Atlantic American Lung Association 105 

18 ALISON STEELE, Manager, 

19 Community Programs and Advocacy, 

20 Conservation Consultants, Inc. 110 

21 ELIZABETH KERR, Communications and Policy, 

22 Business Forward 115 
5 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 RAY ROBERTS 123 

4 PERRY RECKER, PA Congressional District 18, 

5 and Citizens Climate Lobby 128 

6 PHILIP ANGERT, Sierra Club 128 

7 TARYN JONES, Michigan United and 

8 National People's Action 141 

9 DIANE MORALES, Michigan United 149 

10 TALIA O'BRIAN, Pennsylvania Sierra Club 153 

11 JORDON ESTEVAO, National People's Action 155 

12 DR. JOHN ATHERTON 159 

13 ELOWYN CORBY 163 

14 MAREN COOKE, Resident of Pittsburgh 167 

15 PATRICIA DeMARCO, Resident of Pittsburgh 175 

16 NANCY ROBINSON, Resident of Pittsburgh 180 

17 MINDY JO ROSSO COMANGANE, PUSH Buffalo 184 

18 BOB CRAVEN, Concerned Citizen 188 

19 STEPHEN RICCARDI, 

20 Concerned Citizen, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 192 

21 BARBARA GROVER, Chair, 

22 Allegheny Group of the Sierra Club 195 
6 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 SHARON PILLAR, President, Solar Unified 

4 Network of Western Pennsylvania 200 

5 JOY BERGEY, Partnership for Policy Integrity 208 

6 CHRIS ROGERS, 

7 Concerned Citizen from Philadelphia 214 

8 KATIE BARTOLOTTA, on behalf of David Imgrund 219 

9 JACOB SWENSON-LENGYEL, 

10 National People's Action 222 

11 BEN ISHIBASHI, National People's Action 227 

12 JACOB WARD 229 

13 ARELI LOPEZ, National People's Action 235 

14 CLAUS MAKOWKA, Concerned Citizen 238 

15 EVA RESNICK-DAY, Concerned Citizen 241 

16 MIMI DARRAGH, Parish Social Minister, 

17 St. Sylvester Church, Pittsburgh 246 

18 BRENDA SMITH, Executive Director, 

19 Nine Mile Run Watershed Association 250 

20 LYNDSEY O'DAY, United Electrical, Radio, and 

21 Machine Workers of America 254 

22 
7 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PAGE 

3 DAVID MASUR, Executive Director, 

4 PennEnvironment 260 

5 RUSSELL CAMPBELL, Environmental Study Student 271 

6 NAOMI SWERDLOW 274 

7 SHANE McLAUGHLIN, Student, 

8 University of Pittsburgh 275 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
8 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 MR. KOERBER: Good morning, and thank you 

3 for your patience. I know we're a little bit 

4 late starting this morning. I appreciate 

5 everybody being here and attending today's public 

6 hearing. 

7 My name is Mike Koerber. I'm with EPA's 

8 Headquarters Air Office in North Carolina, and 

9 I'll be chairing this session. 

10 Joining me on the panel is Brian Keaveny, 

11 who is also with EPA's Headquarters Air Office in 

12 North Carolina, and Michael Gordon, who is with 

13 EPA's Regional Air Office in Philadelphia. 

14 We're here today to listen to your 

15 comments on EPA's proposed federal plan and model 

16 rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

17 existing power plants. 

18 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 

19 largest source of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions, 

20 or carbon pollution, accounting for 31 percent of 

21 U.S. total greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing 

22 carbon pollution from power plants is an 
9 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 essential step in lessening the impacts of 

2 climate change and providing a more certain 

3 future for our environment, our health, and 

4 future generations. 

5 On October 23rd, the EPA published in the 

6 Federal Register its proposed federal plan to 

7 implement emission guidelines for power plants 

8 under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act. The 

9 proposed federal plan will achieve the same level 

10 of emissions performance as required of state 

11 plans under the Clean Power Plan. Federal plans 

12 will be finalized only for those states with 

13 affected power plants that the EPA determines 

14 have failed to submit an approvable state plan by 

15 the relevant deadlines set in the emission 

16 guidelines. 

17 In those states where a federal plan may 

18 be required, this plan will implement the same 

19 emissions guidelines for affected power plants 

20 outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It will not 

21 require additional control requirements or impose 

22 additional costs. 
10 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Even where a federal plan is put in place 

2 for a particular state, that state will still be 

3 able to submit a plan which, if approved, will 

4 allow the state and its sources to exit the 

5 federal plan. States may take delegation of 

6 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

7 order to become the primary implementers or 

8 submit partial state plans in order to take over 

9 the implementation of a portion of a federal 

10 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 

11 adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 

12 to facilitate compliance or lower cost to the 

13 benefit of power generators and consumers. 

14 The proposal also includes a model rule 

15 for those states that are developing their own 

16 state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 

17 rate-based and mass-spaced model trading rules in 

18 Summer 2016. A state program that adheres to the 

19 model trading rule provisions, when final, would 

20 be presumptively approvable. There are 

21 stand-alone portions of the model trading rules, 

22 such as the evaluation, measurement, and 
11 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 verification procedures for emission rate credits 

2 that would be approvable even if a state adopted 

3 an approach that differs in other respects from 

4 the model rule. 

5 In addition, the proposal contains a 

6 finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 

7 implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 

8 affected power plants located in Indian Country. 

9 Carbon dioxide emission performance rates for 

10 these facilities were finalized in the Clean 

11 Power Plan. It also contains information on how 

12 the EPA will reach out to communities throughout 

13 the comment period and an overview of the actions 

14 EPA is taking to ensure vulnerable communities 

15 are not being disproportionately impacted by this 

16 rulemaking. 

17 If you'd like more details on the 

18 proposed rule, there are fact sheets available at 

19 the registration desk. 

20 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

21 through a few housekeeping items. First, please 

22 be sure that you have checked in at the 
12 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 registration desk, even if you are not planning 

2 to speak today, and if you signed up to speak 

3 online or by phone but haven't told us that 

4 you're here, please step out to the registration 

5 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

6 arrived. 

7 Second, please put your phones on 

8 vibrate, as to not disturb the speakers. 

9 Finally, and maybe most importantly, 

10 please be respectful of all of our speakers 

11 today. You're going to hear from a lot of 

12 people. Let's make sure that they get their time 

13 and we're all very respectful of what they have 

14 to say. 

15 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

16 will work. I will call up speakers in pairs. 

17 When your name is called, please come to the 

18 speakers table at the front of the room, the 

19 table over here. When I call on you to speak, 

20 please state and spell your name. Your comments 

21 will be transcribed and included in the record of 

22 comments on the proposed rule. 
13 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Each speaker will have 5 minutes. We 

2 have a timer light to help you know how much time 

3 you have left to speak. The timer light is right 

4 over here on the table. When the light turns 

5 from green to yellow, that means you have 1 

6 minute remaining. When it turns red, that means 

7 you're at 5 minutes and it's time to wrap it up. 

8 When you are finished speaking, please 

9 remain at the table until the person next to you 

10 has completed their testimony. I will then call 

11 up the next pair of speakers and so on. 

12 Today is your time. We are here to 

13 listen to you, but the panel members may ask 

14 questions to help clarify your comments. If 

15 you've brought a written copy of your testimony, 

16 please give it to the staff at the registration 

17 desk before you leave, and if you have an extra 

18 copy for the court reporter, it would be 

19 appreciated. 

20 We will put any written comments 

21 submitted today in the official docket for the 

22 proposed rule. 
14 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 We also have comment cards available at 

2 the registration desk if you'd like to submit 

3 additional written comments today. If you want 

4 to comment in writing later, stop by the table 

5 near the registration desk and pick up a copy of 

6 the instructions for submitting written comments. 

7 Comments must be received by January 21st. Let 

8 me assure you that EPA gives just as much 

9 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

10 as we do comments we receive at public hearings 

11 like this. So, if you have more comments that 

12 you'd like to provide the EPA, please submit them 

13 by the comment period deadline, January 21st. 

14 Your comments are greatly appreciated and will be 

15 reviewed. 

16 Finally, if you have any questions during 

17 the day, please see the staff at the registration 

18 desk downstairs, and someone will assist you. 

19 Thanks again for being here and for 

20 taking time to share your comments on our 

21 proposed rule. 

22 Now let's get started. I'd like to call 
15 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 up the first two speakers: Ed Perry and John 

2 Nagle. 

3 MR. PERRY: Edward Perry, P, as in Peter, 

4 e-r-r-y. I'm an aquatic biologist working with 

5 the National Wildlife Federation as their 

6 Pennsylvania Outreach Coordinator for their 

7 Climate Change Campaign, and I'm speaking today 

8 for many of my fellow hunters, anglers, and 

9 outdoor enthusiasts who view climate change as 

10 the greatest threat to our natural resources that 

11 we have ever faced. 

12 I'm a lifelong fisherman and hunter, and 

13 I've had the privilege of fishing, camping, and 

14 hiking all over this great country of ours. And 

15 I can tell you that myself and many of my fellow 

16 outdoor enthusiasts are already seeing the 

17 adverse effects to our landscape from climate 

18 change. 

19 I want to give you just a couple of 

20 examples of what we're seeing and just right here 

21 in Pennsylvania. Already warmer winters have 

22 allowed populations of this noxious insect pest 
16 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 called the woolly adelgid to explode and are 

2 attacking our state tree, the hemlock. 

3 Scientists forecast that unless we reduce carbon 

4 pollution, the adelgid is likely to eliminate the 

5 hemlock, our state tree, from the entire Eastern 

6 United States within the next 85 years, and it's 

7 already happening. 

8 Now, some people might say, "Well, who 

9 cares? It's just a tree." Well, hemlocks are 

10 what conservation biologists call a keystone 

11 species, and that is a species at which many 

12 other life forms depend on. 

13 For example, our state fish, the brook 

14 trout, is so closely allied with hemlocks that at 

15 one time they were called hemlock trout. 

16 Hemlocks provide important thermal cover for 

17 these fish during the heat of the summer when 

18 it's important that these cold water streams are 

19 shaded, and this is just one of the species that 

20 hemlocks are important for. 

21 So, as the woolly adelgid takes out our 

22 state tree, which it's in the process of doing, 
17 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 our state fish is going to go out with it. 

2 Fisheries scientists and EPA's own latest report 

3 on this forecasts that by the year 2100, trout 

4 and salmon will be gone from the Eastern United 

5 States. 

6 Where once colder winters confined the 

7 adelgid mostly to Virginia, they're now spread 

8 all the way up into Maine. Global warming isn't 

9 just blindsiding native species with habitat 

10 changes. It's giving a leg up to many of these 

11 harmful and invasive species that are affecting 

12 wildlife all across our country. In essence, 

13 climate change puts a thumb on the competitive 

14 scale, helping not the species that are the most 

15 beneficial or most economically valuable, but 

16 it's the ones that can take the heat. 

17 What I'm trying to convey to you today is 

18 that there is real urgency to take action. We 

19 literally have no time to lose. We're already 

20 seeing adverse effects. 

21 So your Clean Power Plan, which I and 

22 many of my fellow sportsmen strongly support, is 
18 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 a step in that direction, the right direction. 

2 The plan is going to help us speed our say to a 

3 future in which we invest more in 

4 wildlife-friendly sources of clean energy and 

5 less in fuels that pollute our air and water and 

6 harm our global climate. 

7 So I want to commend EPA for developing a 

8 plan that not only allows the states great 

9 flexibility to reduce carbon pollution, but 

10 you're also providing a federal backstop for 

11 those states that won't be as aggressive in 

12 tackling climate change, as I'm sure Pennsylvania 

13 will be. 

14 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

15 today. 

16 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

17 Mr. Nagle? 

18 MR. NAGLE: John Nagle, spelled J-o-h-n, 

19 N-a-g-l-e. I am a professor emeritus, now 

20 retired at Carnegie Mellon University in the 

21 fields of physics and biology. 

22 Years ago, I taught a course entitled 
19 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Energy and Environmental Issues. At that time, 

2 it was still possible to make a case that manmade 

3 global warming might not be occurring, so my 

4 course encouraged debate among the students, but 

5 that was a lopsided debate even then. And, of 

6 course, EPA's Clean Power Plan recognizes today's 

7 lopsided scientific consensus. 

8 I thank the EPA for giving us the 

9 opportunity to comment on its Clean Power Plan 

10 for greenhouse gas reduction from EGUs, 

11 energy-generating units, electricity-generating 

12 units, and I thank this panel for patiently 

13 listening during another 2-day marathon. 

14 The EPA had a hearing last year -- I'm 

15 not sure if it was this room; we had a different 

16 arrangement of chairs, anyway -- in Pittsburgh, 

17 when the plan was still being proposed. Then, 

18 EPA was soliciting comments on a number of the 

19 options that it was considering. 

20 I responded with preferences to a baker's 

21 dozen of those options, and there's a docket for 

22 that. 
20 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I appreciate all of the hard work that 

2 the EPA has had to do to incorporate everyone's 

3 comments into a finalized plan, and I appreciate 

4 the opportunity to comment again. 

5 When I entered my comments a year ago, I 

6 expressed concern that the proposed plan did not 

7 go far enough, and I was very concerned that it 

8 would be watered down even more by climate change 

9 deniers and vested interests. That apparently 

10 did not happen. 

11 The Union of Concerned Scientists, of 

12 which I am a member, entered 111 pages of 

13 comments to strengthen the proposed plan, and I 

14 am very pleased to have read just recently that 

15 the UCS says that the EPA incorporated most of 

16 their recommendations in the final EPA plan. 

17 Even though I agree with the Union of Concerned 

18 Scientists that the plan still doesn't go far 

19 enough, fast enough, it's an important catalyst 

20 for a climate action. 

21 Already, coal-fired EGUs are being shut 

22 down, and fossil fuel stocks are being divested. 
21 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Incidentally, I divested shares of Exxon 

2 that I had inherited and I hadn't paid much 

3 attention to, and I'm very happy to say that I 

4 did it a year ago before the price started to 

5 drop. 

6 [Laughter.] 

7 MR. NAGLE: Now, while coal is being 

8 replaced by natural gas-fired EGUs, methane is 

9 only 40 percent better, and that's just not good 

10 enough. And I'm concerned that this 40 percent 

11 reduction from natural gas does not include 

12 leaked methane from fracking. Only a half 

13 percent leakage completely offsets the gain over 

14 coal, but that's the subject of a different EPA 

15 hearing, which I didn't get a chance to go to. 

16 One thing that surprised me about the 

17 final plan is that it does not include the 

18 previously proposed Building Block No. 4, which 

19 was based on energy conservation. Proactively 

20 improving building codes seems an obvious way to 

21 reduce GHG emissions, not to mention turning out 

22 the lights. 
22 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 A few years ago, Carnegie Mellon bestowed 

2 a prestigious $50,000 Dickson on Jared Diamond 

3 for his book entitled "Collapse." That book 

4 serves as a warning to us today. His book 

5 describes several civilizations that collapsed, 

6 sometimes by its people not being able to 

7 recognize an existential threat. Fortunately, 

8 science recognizes the threat of global warming. 

9 However, many of those civilizations collapsed 

10 because they didn't have the will to deal with a 

11 threat, even when it was staring them in the 

12 face. That's the challenge we face today. 

13 It's important to recognize that it took 

14 hundreds of years for those historic collapses to 

15 play out, just like the impending irreversible 

16 collapse of the West Antarctic ice cap. The EPA, 

17 with its plan, well appreciates the long-term 

18 nature of the existential climate threat. The 

19 long half-life of the carbon dioxide we dump into 

20 the atmosphere today makes it a ticking time bomb 

21 that can't be undone. Actions must be taken to 

22 limit greenhouse gases before it becomes too late 
23 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 to prevent the most disastrous consequences. 

2 Now, if I were cynical, I might selfishly 

3 resist paying a little more for electricity -- I 

4 think the estimate was 7 percent more for 

5 electricity -- and not even consider all the 

6 benefits of not burning -- the healthful benefits 

7 of not burning fossil fuel. 

8 So I'm sorry I ran over time here. I 

9 would be -- 

10 MR. KOERBER: If you're close, feel free 

11 to wrap it up. Feel free to finish. 

12 MR. NAGLE: I'm trying to wrap it up. 

13 Yeah. I've got another half minute here. 

14 MR. KOERBER: Okay. 

15 MR. NAGLE: I would be leaving a terrible 

16 legacy if I chose the selfish path of not dealing 

17 with this, and my punchline is that selfish 

18 cynics who ignore the issue really deserve to -- 

19 when the thing plays out and they're all long 

20 dead, they deserve to go to a hell with demons 

21 crying out, "What were you thinking, and what 

22 were you doing?" 
24 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 So even though the plan doesn't go far 

2 enough, fast enough, it will catalyze more 

3 rational planning that will help avert the sort 

4 of collapse described in Diamond's book. 

5 Thank you. 

6 MR. KOERBER: Thank you both. 

7 Any of the panel members have clarifying 

8 questions? 

9 [No audible response.] 

10 MR. KOERBER: I think we're good. Thank 

11 you both, gentlemen. 

12 I'd like to call Bob Cook and Brenda 

13 Barron. 

14 And I do realize it's a little warm in 

15 here, so we have asked that they try to turn on 

16 some air conditioning. If they could just open a 

17 window, it would help, maybe, if we had one. 

18 MR. COOK: Do you want my proper name or 

19 just Bob Cook is fine? 

20 MR. KOERBER: Sure. That's good. 

21 MR. COOK: Are we ready to start? 

22 MR. KOERBER: Whenever you are, Mr. Cook. 
25 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. COOK: My name is Bob Cook, capital 

2 B-o-b, capital C-o-o-k, kind of like the chef. 

3 Hello, everybody. I'm from Buffalo, New York, 

4 and I work with People United for Sustainable 

5 Housing, PUSH. Go PUSH. 

6 We are a strong organization that has 

7 worked hard for the past 10 years on housing 

8 issues for the West Side of Buffalo, and we have 

9 accomplished a great deal in raising our 

10 community's awareness of how utility companies 

11 and the state of New York have worked together to 

12 maintain the status quo, allowing these corporate 

13 giants and Wall Street to drain wealth out of 

14 low- and moderate-income communities, communities 

15 of color, and that's us, us here. And that ain't 

16 right. 

17 Can I get an "That ain't right"? 

18 ATTENDEES: That ain't right. 

19 MR. COOK: That ain't right. Thank you 

20 very much. 

21 MR. KOERBER: If the audience could 

22 refrain themselves, thank you. 
26 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. COOK: It may be hard to do. 

2 MR. KOERBER: I appreciate your passion, 

3 but -- 

4 MR. COOK: We at PUSH have been working 

5 hard to change that dynamic and let our utilities 

6 know we have a seat at the table, and they cannot 

7 deny us. And that's why we're here today. 

8 I moved to Buffalo in 1980, and I have 

9 lived there on the West Side since then. In the 

10 early '90s, my now ex-wife and I purchased the 

11 worst house on a good street in a good 

12 neighborhood. We gutted the interior and 

13 discovered antiquated infrastructure and no 

14 insulation, which explained the high heating 

15 bills from previous years in this 

16 2,000-square-foot single-family home. 

17 We rebuilt it. We got the financing 

18 because, basically, we were living in a good 

19 neighborhood, and we still had reasonable 

20 salaries that we could pay off our mortgage with 

21 or our loan with. And this cut the heating -- we 

22 made sure that we installed a good infrastructure 
27 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and a good weatherizing shell around the house, 

2 and this cut the heating bill in half. And I 

3 mention this because 14 years later, circumstance 

4 found me divorced, out of work, and living in an 

5 upstairs apartment that was uninsulated, and it 

6 cost me more to heat that than I was paying for 

7 rent. Argh! 

8 That's passion again. I'm sorry. 

9 My gas was turned off, and that winter, I 

10 could only stay warm by huddling in a blanket, 

11 sitting in front of an electric space heater, and 

12 that ain't right. 

13 When push came calling, I was on board, 

14 first, as a community volunteer and a leader, and 

15 then with a job. I've learned a great deal 

16 working with PUSH. I learned about conservation 

17 incentive programs that don't have enough funding 

18 towards weatherization. We did something to 

19 change that. 

20 I have learned that the Governor of New 

21 York and the Public Service Commission are 

22 working hand in hand with the utility companies 
28 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 to control what happens with renewable energy 

2 resources and maintaining corporate control of 

3 those resources, and one of the things that we 

4 want to do is try to bring more community control 

5 to these resources, so that the wealth in our 

6 neighborhoods is not drained off further, so that 

7 we can start to build wealth in our neighborhoods 

8 ourselves. 

9 I've learned that there are pools of 

10 money out there to develop new energy incentives, 

11 but only 5 percent of that money is going towards 

12 projects involving renewable resources, and that 

13 ain't right. If we are just playing games, it 

14 doesn't matter what kind of investment there is. 

15 But we're serious. We're serious. It 

16 should be over 50 percent if we're really serious 

17 about transforming our energy landscape and being 

18 true to the effort to reign in the fossil fuel 

19 culture we are now embedded in. 

20 And then there's all the hubbub about 

21 lost jobs. If the fossil fuel industry is 

22 corralled, oh, so many jobs have been lost. If 
29 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 we replace it with renewable, all of that is 

2 bunk. The news is not being broadcast in this 

3 capitalist nation that the changeover from fossil 

4 to renewable not only absorbs these similar jobs, 

5 but creates more jobs, and that's true in Canada, 

6 and it can be true here. 

7 The oil industry doesn't want us to find 

8 this out. Gee, I wonder why. That ain't right. 

9 To finish, let me mention tipping points. 

10 Scientists keep warning us about how close we are 

11 to the tipping point for runaway warming. Well, 

12 there's another tipping point that policymakers 

13 should be worrying about. How soon will it be 

14 before enough people in our communities are 

15 pissed off enough to revolt and take matters into 

16 our own hands, take utilities back under 

17 municipal control, and cut Wall Street out of the 

18 equation? 

19 If we want to make energy affordable and 

20 actually honest for the people that are in low21 and moderate-income communities, that's what 

22 should happen, and I'm ready for that revolution. 
30 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Thank you. 

2 [Applause.] 

3 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

4 Ms. Barron? 

5 MS. BARRON: Hi. Thank you. My name is 

6 Brenda Barron, and I am with Keystone Progress 

7 and National People's Action, organizing director 

8 based in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. And I'm here 

9 today to first support the Clean Power Plan. 

10 I mean, at its heart, you know, the plan 

11 is building healthy, sustainable, and thriving 

12 communities, and the plan does create exciting 

13 opportunities to spur a green economy as well as 

14 create quality jobs where they are most needed. 

15 But to fulfill this promise, we've got to make 

16 sure our new energy economy is based on truly 

17 clean and renewable energy, like solar and wind, 

18 and not some of the more economy and 

19 environmental damaging resources like nuclear but 

20 also natural gas. 

21 And what I'm here today to do is actually 

22 share a story from a leader of ours in Central 
31 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Pennsylvania and share his story because his 

2 community, his family have been impacted by 

3 negative environmental and economic impacts of 

4 fracking happening in the middle of our state. 

5 So I'm going to read his story right now. 

6 "My name is Robert Antanitis II. I have 

7 been a small business owner and property owner in 

8 Union County and Columbia County, Pennsylvania, 

9 since January -- for the past 8 years and was the 

10 third generation to work in my grandfather's 

11 sawmill and hardware stores. 

12 "I graduated from Dickinson College in 

13 2001 and worked in the legal and energy fields 

14 for years in several states and countries before 

15 returning to Pennsylvania. 

16 "I support the Clean Power Plan, and I am 

17 sharing my story to encourage the EPA to strongly 

18 consider strengthening it to address the real 

19 concerns of rural and low-income Pennsylvanians. 

20 "I would like to submit for the record, 

21 firsthand experience of seeing best-case scenario 

22 when a pipeline ruptures. Please reference 
32 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Transco 24-inch pipeline rupture, 9:30 p.m., June 

2 11th, 2015, in Unityville, PA. I visited the 

3 site in northern Columbia County just a few days 

4 after the pipeline ruptured, which is about 4 

5 miles from my childhood home. I talked with 

6 family and friends who live in Benton, just 4 

7 miles south of the rupture, and heard reports 

8 that noise and concussion led people to believe 

9 some type of bomb had gone off, a 747 had 

10 crashed, or some kind of geological phenomena was 

11 shaking the Earth, because in their minds, 

12 because of the frequency of fracking Earthquakes, 

13 this geologically dormant area, that was likely 

14 what happened. 

15 "While the cloud produced was seen on the 

16 horizon for 10 miles, which in reality it's 

17 impossible for fireworks in this ridge and valley 

18 corridor to be seen at all, and the evacuation of 

19 more than 100 people seemed to be about a mile 

20 radius and left many families homeless for 1 to 3 

21 days. 

22 "Transco and emergency workers informed 
33 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 us that this was the best-case scenario. Here's 

2 why. If there had been a resident burning 

3 garbage, a family roasting marshmallows, a wood 

4 furnace in the basement, or even just static 

5 electricity in the environment, just enough to 

6 spark hot, the rupture could have been a 

7 several-mile-long pressurized fire bomb. As it 

8 was, our environment had to soak up an immense 

9 amount of gas because there are no methods to 

10 capture displayed heavy gas, and our residents, 

11 animals, and farms had to breathe it in. 

12 "I agree. It truly was a best-case 

13 scenario since it was only a 24-inch pipeline. 

14 Transco is now trying to permit much larger 

15 pipelines in Pennsylvania, and it did not consume 

16 the entire northern tier of our country in a 

17 gas-induced fire bomb that would have decimated 

18 the land in a much more pressurized explosion and 

19 even a napalm bomb. 

20 "The particular pipeline passes many 

21 childhood homes of my friends and family, but 

22 thankfully, the place that it ruptured was 
34 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 several hundred yards from the nearest house and 

2 4 miles from my hometown. 

3 "I very sincerely submit this testimony 

4 to the EPA's records and hope that the 

5 regulations more strictly impose standards and 

6 regulations on the gas industry, and that they 

7 change their guiding philosophy from the 

8 corporate pragmatism that led to a spider web of 

9 dangerous pipelines, drill pads, and compressor 

10 stations, and be enlightened with their pen to 

11 promote renewables back to a smarter and less 

12 intrusive grid of utilities. 

13 "Respectfully, Robert Antanitis II." 

14 So I share this story because not only do 

15 -- I know Rob well, but I also know a number of 

16 families in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, where 

17 fracking is very huge, and it's not only hurt the 

18 environment up there, as Rob has put, and the 

19 fear that people in Central PA live with every 

20 day of will their children -- you know, will 

21 there be an explosion? Is their water safe? Is 

22 their air clean? 
35 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 But rent in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, 

2 is now for a studio apartment, $1,300. Yeah. 

3 And that's all because of frackers. They come in 

4 from Oklahoma and Texas. They take the 

5 high-paying jobs. Yeah, we get some hotel jobs. 

6 We get some restaurant jobs. But, as soon as 

7 they're done taking the oil, that's gone, and 

8 people are being displaced from their own homes. 

9 $1,300. I didn't even pay that when I lived in 

10 D.C. So that's just not right. 

11 And the other thing that I want to talk 

12 about is just also what I understand about 

13 natural gas, which is once it's actually burned 

14 and emitted into the community, it actually 

15 creates 100 times more carbon dioxide than -- 

16 within a 5-year period than normal releases. 

17 Actually, I am not the scientist. All I 

18 know is that having my niece and nephew living in 

19 Pennsylvania and near -- also, we have a pipeline 

20 about to come through our community in 

21 Northampton County. I'm personally just really 

22 afraid for the future and these pipeline 
36 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 explosions and not what happens, and so I do 

2 encourage the EPA to -- if you are going to 

3 consider natural gas a clean alternative, which I 

4 don't, when there are actually solar and wind 

5 alternatives, please, please, please regulate 

6 them heavily so our communities do not get 

7 literally blown up in the process and put the 

8 people in the plan at first, the Americans who 

9 need a healthy environment. 

10 Thank you. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you both. 

12 [Applause.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, Mr. Cook and 

14 others who traveled here from Buffalo today. We 

15 appreciate you being with us. Thank you all for 

16 traveling. 

17 I'd like to call up our next two 

18 speakers: Kathleen Krebs and Jamin Bogi. And my 

19 apologies for any mispronunciations. 

20 Ms. Krebs, when you're ready. 

21 MS. KREBS: Hi. Good morning. My name 

22 is Kathleen Krebs. That's with a K, and last 
37 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 name, K-r-e-b as in boy, s as in Sam. 

2 And just to share with you, as I was 

3 talking to the bus stop today, I was hit with the 

4 awful stench and nausea from the power plant 

5 company that's one-quarter mile from my home, and 

6 that's what it is when you live in an 

7 environmental justice community, when it's a 

8 low-income area. 

9 Today, though, I am speaking on behalf of 

10 the Alliance of Nurses for a Healthy Environment 

11 and also a grassroots organization, Allegheny 

12 County Clean Air Now. 

13 As a nurse, I understand the clear 

14 connection between preventing the worst impacts 

15 of climate change and protecting human health. 

16 None of us want to leave the next generation with 

17 epidemic levels of asthma, cardiovascular, and 

18 respiratory illnesses, but that's exactly what 

19 climate change is causing today, and it will only 

20 get worse unless we act now to drastically cut 

21 the pollution that's fueling this problem. No 

22 pun intended there. 
38 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 This is why I am here today as a nurse 

2 and a resident of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to 

3 voice my strong support for the Clean Power Plan 

4 and to encourage all of our policymakers here in 

5 our Commonwealth to craft the strongest plan 

6 possible that will truly protect public health. 

7 Nurses demand strong climate action 

8 because we are on the front lines of climate 

9 change. We are caring for patients whose lives 

10 are deeply impacted by this problem, and their 

11 numbers will only continue to grow unless we take 

12 strong action against climate change now. 

13 For over four decades, I have practiced 

14 in critical care, coronary care, oncology, and 

15 home care and hospice in the Pittsburgh area. I 

16 have seen firsthand the toll of many of these 

17 diseases, specifically cardiovascular and 

18 respiratory disease, which takes on the health of 

19 our community here in Pennsylvania and is the 

20 number one cause of death, killing over 85 people 

21 here per day. 

22 I had the pleasure of listening to a 
39 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 lecture recently by a Dr. Wayne Cascio, an 

2 Environmental Protection Association 

3 cardiologist, and it was striking to hear that 

4 the next gold standard for managing 

5 cardiovascular health and prevention for those of 

6 us that live in environmental communities with 

7 industrial pollution is the use of statin, the 

8 Lipitors, the Crestors, all of that sort of 

9 stuff. And it's just really very sad to think 

10 that we're resorting to medication as a 

11 preventative measure to ward off cardiovascular 

12 disease, and the good thing is it does provide an 

13 anti-inflammatory effect, but that's not the 

14 answer. 

15 And what people really don't realize is 

16 the strong connection between heart disease and 

17 climate change. During heat waves and poor air 

18 quality days, our emergency rooms are filled to 

19 capacity with people suffering from cardiac and 

20 respiratory diseases. By reducing our carbon 

21 pollution from power plants and coke plants, 

22 quickly and substantially, we will be able to 
40 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 protect the public health from the impacts of 

2 climate change. 

3 The EPA projects -- you folks -- that by 

4 2030, the Clean Power Plan would prevent up to 

5 6,600 premature deaths and nearly 2,000 hospital 

6 visits for cardiovascular and respiratory 

7 illnesses. Let me repeat that: 6,600 premature 

8 deaths and 2,000 hospital visits. 

9 I'm hopeful that you all will take on the 

10 aggressive approach that Oregon has, which I 

11 believe is 50 percent. Actually, Pennsylvania, 

12 I'm hoping will do that. The federal government 

13 is taking an excellent first step to help protect 

14 public health with the introduction of the Clean 

15 Power Plan. I'm happy to be alive to see that 

16 happen. 

17 But I am calling on all of our 

18 policymakers here in Pennsylvania to be leaders 

19 and develop a strong comprehensive plan that will 

20 reach carbon reduction goals through the 

21 healthiest approach available, which again has 

22 been said numerous times here, clean renewable 
41 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 energy sources such as wind and solar power. 

2 Climate change threatens the health of 

3 our patients and people. We'll continue to 

4 suffer the health consequences until we limit 

5 carbon emissions and other volatile organic 

6 compounds. We need to put the health of all of 

7 our Pennsylvanians first and take strong action 

8 on climate now. 

9 I thank you very much, and I'm sorry for 

10 going overtime. 

11 MR. KOERBER: You're right on time. 

12 Thank you. 

13 [Applause.] 

14 MR. KOERBER: Mr. Bogi? 

15 MR. BOGI: Good morning. My name is 

16 Jamin Bogi, J-a-m-i-n, B-o-g-i, and I represent 

17 the members and staff of the Group Against Smog 

18 and Pollution, also known as GASP, a nonprofit 

19 that's fought for cleaner air for our region for 

20 67 years -- 47 years, 1969. 

21 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

22 on the federal version of the Clean Power Plan 
42 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and for coming to Pittsburgh. EPA holds the air 

2 pollution regulation hearings here in Pittsburgh 

3 quite often, which is appropriate, since 

4 Southwestern Pennsylvania has considerable air 

5 quality challenges. 

6 We suffer from high levels of 

7 particulates, ozone, air toxics, and more 

8 pollutants. A hotter climate will exacerbate our 

9 already unhealthy air pollution. GASP supports a 

10 strong federal plan that will make sure everyone 

11 contributing to the problem will have to work 

12 toward the solution. 

13 Thankfully, Pennsylvania's governor is 

14 committed to complying with this regulation and 

15 to crafting a state plan before next year's 

16 deadline. The head of our Department of 

17 Environmental Protection has already been 

18 discussion cross-state cooperation with other 

19 states served by our grid. However, we're 

20 downwind of a lot of states that are suing to 

21 block this plan: Ohio suing to stop; Indiana 

22 suing to stop; West Virginia, Kentucky suing to 
43 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 stop. 

2 States challenging the rule are 

3 responsible for almost 80 percent of the needed 

4 emissions reductions. We need a strong federal 

5 plan ready to go if any of these states make good 

6 on their promises to do nothing. 

7 The rule could not come soon enough. In 

8 2014, atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide, 

9 methane, and nitrous oxide rose again. Methane 

10 and nitrous oxide rose at rates faster than they 

11 have in a decade. Carbon dioxide levels have 

12 never been higher in the history of humanity and 

13 perhaps haven't been this high in 23 million 

14 years. 

15 For the world to right this ship, the 

16 U.S. must take a leadership role. This plan is 

17 part of that needed leadership. 

18 But 2014 wasn't just a record year for 

19 greenhouse gas levels. It was an amazing year 

20 for renewable energy. Last year half of all new 

21 power plants brought online created energy from 

22 renewables, and 60 percent of all new energy 
44 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 investment is going into renewable energy. 

2 Renewable energy continues to get 

3 cheaper, and technological advances make 

4 renewables more exciting each day, even right 

5 here in this region, from the 5-1/4 megawatts of 

6 hydropower going in on the existing Braddock 

7 Locks and Dam, just up the river from here, to 

8 Pittsburgh-based Aquion Energy's Saltwater 

9 Batteries that allow consumers to safely store as 

10 much power from their solar panels or wind 

11 turbines as they need, to the borough of 

12 Millvale, which you could probably see if they'd 

13 let you on the roof here, a borough that's 

14 working hard to becoming a solar hub, providing 

15 energy for itself and those around it. 

16 We have the chance now to make a push 

17 that leads to a prosperous future, or we can do 

18 nothing and continue the march backwards to 23 

19 million years ago. 

20 Please pass a strong Clean Power Plan 

21 that will help end humanities retreat into 

22 prehistory. Thank you. 
45 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 [Applause.] 

2 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

3 Any questions from the panelists? 

4 [No audible response.] 

5 MR. KOERBER: Nope. Thank you both. 

6 Our next two speakers will be Michael 

7 Bett and Carmen Alexander. 

8 MR. BETT: May I give you copies of my 

9 statement? 

10 MR. KOERBER: That would be great. Thank 

11 you. And a copy for the court reporter, too, if 

12 you have an extra. 

13 MR. BETT: Thank you. 

14 My name is Michael Bett, M-i-c-h-a-e-k, 

15 B-e-t-t. I have lived in Allegheny County for 

16 the past 35 years. For the past 21 years, I've 

17 been a resident of Ben Avon. It's a suburb 

18 northwest of the city of Pittsburgh where I'm 

19 also an elected official. I am a member of the 

20 Ben Avon Council. I am also the managing 

21 director of the National Science 

22 Foundation-funded Pittsburgh Science Learning 
46 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Center are Carnegie Mellon University and the 

2 University of Pittsburgh where we conduct 

3 research on how to make learning more effective. 

4 I want to thank you for your time today. 

5 The planet is our home, our only home. With the 

6 increasing drastic weather conditions, we can 

7 already see the havoc that the climate change is 

8 beginning to wreak. 

9 It devastates me to imagine what the 

10 world will be that our children's children will 

11 inherit. We have known about this preventable 

12 disaster for decades and have failed to act. 

13 Last year the United States was the 

14 second largest producer of CO2 emissions 

15 worldwide, just behind China. I see what we are 

16 doing to the Earth as akin to me demolishing my 

17 home, one room at a time, using the wood to heat 

18 the remainder of my home, and then moving on to 

19 destroying the next room until nothing is left. 

20 Of course, this would be madness, but it is 

21 exactly what we are doing on a global scale. We 

22 are rapidly destroying our home. 
47 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 While we may have passed the tipping 

2 point, we must minimize the damage that we do to 

3 this planet. The United States must lead in 

4 reductions of these dangerous submissions. This 

5 will not only help to minimize the damage, but as 

6 it has been widely reported, it creates economic 

7 opportunities while improving our environment. 

8 I applaud you for your actions. My only 

9 desire is that they were taken decades ago and 

10 went further. Thank you. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

12 [Applause.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: Ms. Alexander? 

14 MS. ALEXANDER: Good morning. My name is 

15 Carmen Alexander. That's C, as in cat, 

16 a-r-m-e-n, A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r. I am a current 

17 resident and a native of Pittsburgh. I'm also a 

18 community organizer with New Voices Pittsburgh, a 

19 reproductive justice organization. I'm also here 

20 standing in solidarity with the National People's 

21 Action. 

22 Reproductive justice allows me to work 
48 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 with black women and see the negative effects of 

2 air pollution in their lives on a daily basis. 

3 We have an environmental justice program that 

4 allows us to empower black women in our 

5 community, to learn to vote, and also to 

6 understand the effects of environmental justice. 

7 I understand the Clean Air Act has 

8 directed you to set national clean air standards. 

9 I'm here today to support the Clean Power Plan. 

10 I'm here today to ask you to consider my 

11 community because, historically, communities of 

12 color are most affected by the effects of air 

13 pollution. 

14 One in six children who are black suffer 

15 from asthma. People who have lower income face a 

16 greater risk from air pollution because we live 

17 closer to the sources of pollution. For example, 

18 my father worked at a steel mill for over 20 

19 years, and he now lives about 6 miles away from a 

20 steel mill. 

21 My ex-husband worked in a steel mill, and 

22 my children's uncle worked there, too, who now 
49 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 suffers from lung disease. 

2 Pittsburgh is a demographically 

3 segregated city. The majority of black people 

4 live in the East Side of the city, and the 

5 majority of steel mills are in East Side of the 

6 city also. In the East Side of city, we are the 

7 most hilliest of Pittsburgh. So, if you can 

8 imagine from a respiratory perspective, you have 

9 to climb hills to get home, and you're breathing 

10 this air constantly. 

11 Less than 15 miles from where I grow up, 

12 where I raised my children also is the Cheswick 

13 Power Plant, which is a coal-burning power plant. 

14 I am a mother of five children and a 

15 grandmother of two, and I have one on the way. I 

16 raised three boys with asthma and have a grandson 

17 who has severe respiratory problems. He was 

18 premature. He was born at 1.5 pounds, and he's 

19 still with us today. And I'm very happy that 

20 he's still with us today. 

21 I will never forget watching my oldest 

22 son, Kenneth, turn blue in my arms. It was in 
50 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the '90s. I was living in a very high-crime 

2 area, and I had to wait for the ambulance to get 

3 a police escort to come to my child. No mother 

4 should ever have to deal with that. No mother 

5 should ever have to wonder if their child is 

6 going to live or die while they're in their arms. 

7 I was told that my grandson, Elijah, who 

8 has severe respiratory problems, will outgrow his 

9 lungs, and that's something that we face every 

10 day. And he's 6 years old at this point. 

11 I can't imagine how I was able to afford 

12 having three boys who had asthma. I was making 

13 minimum wage, and at that time, we had to get 

14 medication for three boys. We had to navigate 

15 doctors' appointments to make sure they had the 

16 care they needed. We also had to make sure we 

17 had the copayment available for them. 

18 Each year we had to tackle our light 

19 bills. We had to tackle our gas bills. Many 

20 times we had five children at home with no gas at 

21 all, when it's really cold. We had to put 

22 plastic at the windows. When people think about 
51 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 your gas being cut off, we think about is this 

2 cold, but we know the negative effects of being 

3 cold. You're going to catch a cold, and whenever 

4 our children got a cold, we were always like, "Oh 

5 my God, they're going to have another asthma 

6 attack." 

7 We carry around -- if I was on a bus, we 

8 had to carry around three machines to give them 

9 albuterol. That's not acceptable. At the time, 

10 I didn't know the effects of air pollution, but I 

11 know that now. 

12 We didn't own our home during that time, 

13 so we didn't qualify for weatherization programs. 

14 I'm here to let you know I don't want my children 

15 to raise my grandchildren in poor air quality. 

16 We know that burning fossil fuel is killing 

17 communities of color. I'm asking you to 

18 implement solutions that include setting aside 

19 resources and renewable energy; 5 percent just 

20 isn't enough. 

21 We need to make sure that you create jobs 

22 so that we can sustain ourselves. For example, 
52 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 here in Pittsburgh, we have the Solarize 

2 Allegheny. It's a wonderful program that allows 

3 low-income families to put solar panels into 

4 their homes, and if they do that, they get a 

5 federal tax credit. 

6 But I'm asking us to go a little bit 

7 more. Can we please create jobs for us in our 

8 communities with these programs? 

9 Black people in our community have been 

10 the victims for too long, and I feel right now 

11 it's time to make that right. We are dying every 

12 day. We have to take care of our family. We 

13 have to bear the cost of burying our family as 

14 well. 

15 We shouldn't have to suffer at the 

16 expense of our environment. Our environment 

17 should be helping us to live; it shouldn't be 

18 helping us to die. 

19 So I am here today to ask you again to 

20 please support the Clean Power Plan. Thank you 

21 for your time and this opportunity. 

22 [Applause.] 
53 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. 

2 I would next like to call Sister Donna 

3 Zwigart and Greg Kochanski, and I probably 

4 butchered both last names, so my apologies. 

5 MR. KOCHANSKI: Oh, that's quite all 

6 right. I'm used to it. 

7 I have a copy for you. Sorry. I didn't 

8 bring more. 

9 SISTER DONNA ZWIGART: I have to get used 

10 to the microphone. When you're small, it's kind 

11 of hard. You have to reach up. 

12 [Pause.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: Comfortable? 

14 SISTER DONNA ZWIGART: Okay. My name is 

15 Sister Donna Zwigart. It's "zwi" like Zwigart. 

16 And it's spelled Z-w-i-g-a-r-t. I am a Sister of 

17 St. Francis of the Neumann Communities. We have 

18 our regional house in my hometown, which is 

19 Millville, Pennsylvania. This is a small borough 

20 about 3 miles from the city of Pittsburgh. 

21 I want to thank the EPA for this 

22 opportunity to comment on the Clean Power Plan 
54 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 which, if enacted, will cut carbon emissions from 

2 the dirtiest power plants by 30 percent in 2030. 

3 This will protect our water, our air, climate, 

4 and community health by preventing 150,000 asthma 

5 attacks, as the lady before me said, and up to 

6 6,600 premature births annually. So you can see 

7 I am in support of this plan. 

8 As a resident of the Pittsburgh area most 

9 of my life, I've witnessed personally the fossil 

10 fuel effects of soot, poor air quality, 

11 emphysema, COPD, and heart disease in our 

12 community, especially affecting the poor who are 

13 left to live always near these pollution 

14 services. 

15 Each year billions of dollars are spent 

16 on health care for the treatment of these 

17 diseases. Think of the dollars we would save if 

18 we can improve the air quality of our Earth. 

19 This money can be used for education, clean 

20 energy jobs, and economic growth. 

21 I would like to talk about, as a person 

22 of the church or of the cross or whatever you 
55 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 call it -- I would like to talk about the rights 

2 of our citizens as expressed in our constitution, 

3 the federal constitution, which says we have the 

4 right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of 

5 happiness. My belief is that all of creation has 

6 the right to live. Sometimes this is dubbed as 

7 the "Earth law." 

8 To live, we need air, clean from carbon 

9 pollution. fossil fuel power plants are the 

10 largest source of these greenhouse gases, which 

11 contribute to climate change on our Mother Earth 

12 and affect all of our brothers and sisters, our 

13 kin in the Kingdom of our Creator. 

14 We witness communities across the globe 

15 with the effects of displacement from their homes 

16 due to drought and extreme weather conditions, 

17 and our children are suffering from poor air 

18 quality. I believe that if we pollute the air, 

19 we are preventing all our kin from their right to 

20 live to the pursuit of happiness. 

21 The Clean Power Plan is a step in the 

22 right direction to deal with climate change as it 
56 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 directs the EPA to set national clean standards 

2 for carbon pollution from existing fossil fuel 

3 power plants. It also states much leeway in 

4 developing standards to affect each state that 

5 coincides with this national standard. If states 

6 refuse to comply, the EPA needs to promptly issue 

7 a federal implementation plan for clean air to 

8 protect Mother Earth from the effects of climate 

9 change. 

10 Attention also should be to low-income 

11 consumers, protecting them, to invest in energy 

12 efficiency to lower their energy bills as is 

13 needed. 

14 As a Franciscan -- this is off the 

15 record. As a Franciscan, we work with the poor 

16 all the time. That's part of who we are, and so 

17 we see the effects that the lady before us said. 

18 We see this all over. Off the record. Okay. 

19 Also, this plan needs to protect 

20 minority, low income, in communities who are most 

21 likely to experience the impacts of climate 

22 change. 
57 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 In conclusion, in appreciation, I would 

2 like to share from Pope Paul -- or Pope Francis' 

3 Laudato Si'. He writes, quote, Our creator can 

4 teach us how to show care, to inspire us to work 

5 with generosity and tenderness in protecting this 

6 world, which has been entrusted to us. Thank 

7 you. 

8 [Applause.] 

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

10 Mr. Kochanski. Any better? 

11 MR. KOCHANSKI: Yep, exactly. 

12 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

13 MR. KOCHANSKI: Thank you for the 

14 opportunity. I'm Greg Kochanski. It's 

15 K-o-c-h-a-n-s-k-i. I like to think of myself as 

16 something between a scientist and an engineer. I 

17 have a physics Ph.D. from MIT, and I have taught 

18 at the University of Oxford. On the engineering 

19 side, I worked at Bell Laboratories and Google, 

20 and I'm scared because I have three kids. And 

21 with luck, they'll be around in 2100 or near 

22 2100, and they are going to see some climate 
58 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 nastiness at that time, even under optimistic 

2 scenarios. 

3 In grandchildren, well, my daughter is a 

4 geophysicist. She hasn't had children yet, and 

5 sometimes she takes a pretty bleak view of our 

6 political will to actually solve the climate 

7 change problem or control it, so I don't know. 

8 Meanwhile, I do what I can as an 

9 individual. I walk to work. We have a hybrid 

10 car. I've insulated the attic. My electricity 

11 comes -- nominally comes from Texas wind farms, 

12 and I buy carbon offsets. It's not nearly 

13 enough. 

14 Because I've been lucky enough to have a 

15 technical career, I can read the scientific 

16 papers and understand the mechanisms, and it's 

17 grim and scary reading. As you know well, the 

18 literature is basically trustworthy. While there 

19 are some uncertainties about the details, the 

20 broader picture is very clear. Specifically, to 

21 avoid serious trouble, we have about 30 years of 

22 a globally shared carbon budget that corresponds 
59 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 to 30 years of our current rate of consumption. 

2 So, within 30 years or less, we need to 

3 rebuild the economy to be largely fossil-free. 

4 We might have less time if science discovers some 

5 unexpected positive feedback mechanisms, and we 

6 have one year less since November 3rd when China 

7 unexpectedly reported that they were burning 10 

8 to 15 percent more coal than everyone thought. 

9 So people will tell you -- and doubtless 

10 they have told you -- that 29 years is too short 

11 a time to rebuilt our energy supplies. People 

12 will tell you that the economic life of a power 

13 plant is 30 to 50 years, and so we must move 

14 slowly, but you shouldn't believe them. The 

15 people who tell you that have grown up in a 

16 static industry, when 10 percent of power plants 

17 are older than I am and where efficiencies have 

18 increased by just a few percentage points since I 

19 was born -- or since then. 

20 It's an industry that has had relatively 

21 little recent innovation, and now the industry is 

22 starting to be replaced. We're starting to get 
60 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 wind and solar competing with these old fossil 

2 fuel plants. They have a similar cost per 

3 megawatt hour and fewer strip mines, no carbon 

4 pollution, on fly ash, and no oil spills. 

5 The people running the power plants, the 

6 people running the electric power industry are 

7 doubtless smart people, but their experience 

8 hasn't prepared them for the changes in 

9 technology that are happening. I've seen a 

10 similar transition myself. 

11 When I started working at AT&T in 1987, 

12 telephones were very different from computers. 

13 Each phone call was carried over a dedicated 

14 circuit, and the circuit was expensive. But 

15 change was coming. Fiber optic cables would, 

16 over the next decade, made data transport 

17 unimaginably cheap, and computers would become 

18 fast enough to economically process and switch 

19 phone calls. 

20 So between 1995 and 2002, my own company, 

21 Lucent Technologies, was run over by 

22 technological change. It couldn't adapt fast 
61 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 enough. It had too many people who expected 

2 incremental improvements. Lucent went from a 

3 stable, profitable company to one that was losing 

4 money, shrinking, and about to be acquired in a 

5 fire sale. 

6 But despite the collapse of some of the 

7 big telecommunication companies -- or near 

8 collapse -- phones kept working. Despite the 

9 fact that some companies lost money and that old 

10 technology was thrown away before it wore out, 

11 the new technologies drive incredible 

12 improvements that have now been picked up by over 

13 a billion people. Everyone has a smart phone 

14 now. 

15 By analogy, you can't afford to have too 

16 much sympathy for the current players in the 

17 electric power industry. They are old 

18 technologies that are about to be run over by the 

19 new. Some of the current companies may provide 

20 the change to renewables, but many of them won't 

21 be able to adapt rapidly enough. 

22 The welfare of old power plants is not 
62 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 our primary concern. As long as we exercise a 

2 moderate amount of care, the free market will 

3 keep the lights on, and those old-technology coal 

4 and natural gas plants will be replaced with 

5 something cheaper and cleaner. 

6 So, in conclusion, I applaud your 

7 efforts, the EPA's efforts to regulate carbon 

8 pollution, but I think we are not being nearly 

9 aggressive enough. We need to stable the global 

10 carbon budget and move fast, not at the slow pace 

11 that the electric power industry would like to 

12 see. We're growing a new industry out of new 

13 technologies, and our goal should be to shut down 

14 the old dirty power generation industry as soon 

15 as possible. The new industry will grow to 

16 replace the old. 

17 Thank you. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. Thank you 

20 both for being here today, and I want to thank 

21 all the audience for their attendance. I 

22 appreciate you all being here. 
63 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I would next like to call G Style and 

2 Lucy Velez. 

3 I will remind the audience to keep your 

4 phones on vibrate, if at all possible. Thank 

5 you. 

6 MR. MYERS: Hello. My name is G-Styles. 

7 I am here on behalf of the Feed Da Streetz Tour. 

8 We traveled here from Michigan. We're 

9 represented by the Sierra Club, also Michigan 

10 United. We're also represented by Detroit, and 

11 we're also going through similar problems that 

12 the people in Pittsburgh are going through, and 

13 we hope that the EPA understands our problems and 

14 our concerns. 

15 And my question is, would you guys be 

16 able to relate to what we're going through? Have 

17 you ever been in the same situation that we're 

18 going through? 

19 The reason why I'm asking is because the 

20 fact is River Rouge is surrounded by industry, so 

21 you're talking about DTE Power Plan, Severstal 

22 Steel, the U.S. Great Lakes Steel Plant. So all 
64 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 of these plants are surrounding our community, 

2 and that's a fact. 

3 Now, when you talk about using your 

4 imagination, that's a slow process of 

5 suffocation, the way that we're being surrounded 

6 by the smog. A faster process of suffocation 

7 would be to simply put a bag over your head and 

8 then probably tell one of your friends to light a 

9 cigarette and blow the smoke inside the bag and 

10 see how long you could be able to breathe. So 

11 use your imagination and see that that's a faster 

12 process of killing us. 

13 And when you talk about having our 

14 health, which is our greatest asset, and you look 

15 at what's more important and what people are 

16 doing with the money and how they're managing the 

17 money, it is kind of similar to how we are 

18 managing our lives. The mismanagement of money 

19 is actually ultimately creating depression in my 

20 community. 

21 I come from an area where they're 

22 building jail cells instead of bringing more 
65 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 businesses into the city. What type of system is 

2 that from? So, when you talk about the smog and 

3 things that we are breathing in, we have 

4 neurological disorders, which creates a high 

5 crime rate. We have people that are suffering 

6 because we pay high property taxes in an area 

7 that we already can't breathe in. So the rate of 

8 survival is doubled by the fact that we have to 

9 constantly calk out money, and then we're also at 

10 work all the time trying to pay these property 

11 taxes, which gives us less time to spend with our 

12 families, which are dying from the pollution. So 

13 this is what we live, and we live it. 

14 And then another term I want to express 

15 is you should de-live it if you live it. So, 

16 live it is you're furiously angry about how 

17 you're being looked at in society. So now we're 

18 talking about what can we do to have a clean, 

19 renewable plan that can have the energy 

20 sustainable to where we can still have our same 

21 heat in our homes with less bills, and that way 

22 we can have less stress, less depression. 
66 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 We've also had opportunities to travel to 

2 other areas, such as Arizona, and we're looking 

3 at their -- the situation with fracking out there 

4 is unbearable, but then you talk about their 

5 property taxes are only like $600 a year as 

6 opposed to what our property taxes would be on 

7 average in River Rouge to be about $2,500, which 

8 is more than double. So these things, quite 

9 frankly, would piss us off if we have to 

10 constantly deal with these things on a regular 

11 basis. 

12 Now, my son was born prematurely due to 

13 all of the things with the coal-fired power 

14 plants. You guys already know about the 

15 percentages, as plenty of people here that know 

16 of the percentages. 

17 My circumstances and my perspective is 

18 the results of what the percentages have brought 

19 to my family. My mother has suffered multiple 

20 heart attacks, and we have tried to figure out 

21 what we can do to move her out of that area. We 

22 moved her out of that area to the West Coast so 
67 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 she could breathe better and have a better 

2 opportunity at life, and it still -- it seemed 

3 like it may have been too late. 

4 So, at this point, I am solely focused on 

5 trying to help my mother rehab from the system 

6 that's been put in place here. I'm not upset 

7 about you telling the audience to refrain from 

8 saying "That's not right," but, I mean, how could 

9 you tell us to refrain when we're going through 

10 all the things that we're going through? I mean, 

11 I'm looking at it, it's like a lack of urgency, 

12 and we have all these testimonies, which I've 

13 been testifying at the EPA for about 2 or 3 

14 years, and I'm looking at my city still have a 

15 bridge that's not fixed, which is also taking 

16 business away from our cities. 

17 So how can we recover a city's tax base 

18 when you don't even have a business that can 

19 actually receive business from community members 

20 coming through the city, on top of us being 

21 suffocated, on top of us having opportunity to 

22 have our crime rate just through the roof because 
68 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 we have a lack of funds? 

2 And it shouldn't be such a thing or a 

3 phrase called "low income." That should be 

4 removed from people's vocabulary. Everybody 

5 should have a right to have a substantial amount 

6 of income where we don't have crime, and you 

7 looking at this position that we're in, we should 

8 be pissed off. We should be upset. There should 

9 be thousands of us here. We should have more 

10 notice. The media should be here and 

11 understanding that our health is our greatest 

12 asset. 

13 We can't even operate a coal-fired power 

14 plant if we're dead, so that's the bottom line. 

15 So we're looking at a bottom-line business where 

16 people would rather spend money on Super Bowl 

17 commercials. 

18 And we watching these commercials, but we 

19 all have cancer watching these commercials. We 

20 all have high blood pressure watching these 

21 commercials. They're telling us to eat Doritos 

22 and buy McDonald's. That's all in our community 
69 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 killing our people. 

2 So, if you're not frustrated about it, 

3 then that means that -- I don't know how much you 

4 guys get paid to sit here and listen to our 

5 concerns, but it must be a lot for you all to 

6 have this much patience. We don't have patience, 

7 so we partner with people from Buffalo. We 

8 definitely want to partner with people from 

9 Pittsburgh, so that we can have a strong alliance 

10 -- and people that's going through this all over 

11 the country, we want to have a strong alliance, 

12 so that way the EPA could stand firm in your all 

13 decision to have a cleaner power plant, and we 

14 have to let the people know that's running the 

15 power plants that their families eventually are 

16 going to have to suffer from it as well. 

17 So it's inevitable if you don't 

18 understand the keys to success, and in my city, 

19 we're looking at developing businesses that can 

20 recover the city's tax base. And you're talking 

21 about coal; it's 60 percent of our tax base in 

22 River Rouge. So now once that industry leaves, 
70 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 what are we going to do to actually have people 

2 come into our city to have it thrive? 

3 It's going to end up like our neighboring 

4 city, Delray and Zug Island. Nobody is in that 

5 city because it's run by industry, and people are 

6 living. But we still got kids there playing in 

7 the park every day getting sick, and these are 

8 the same people that you all want to leave the 

9 country tomorrow, but they're not going to be 

10 healthy enough to leave the country. 

11 So what are we going to do? We're going 

12 to try to figure out how to go to Mars or 

13 something like that? I mean, that's just my 

14 concern, and these circumstances that we're in 

15 right now, we have a sense of urgency. And I 

16 would stress the EPA had the same sense of 

17 urgency that we have and help us thrive within 

18 our community instead of all of our family 

19 members dying on a regular basis. 

20 And pretty much, that's it. 

21 [Applause and cheering.] 

22 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 
71 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Ms. Velez. 

2 MS. VELEZ: Yes. Let me get a little 

3 closer. I'm a little height impaired. 

4 My name is Lucy Velez, and I want to 

5 thank you for allowing me to address you. And 

6 I'm here, I'm angry, and I'm sick, okay? 

7 I was a community social worker for the 

8 Lower West Side of Buffalo for over 25 years 

9 until my disability forced me to retire. So if I 

10 take a moment to breathe, just give me a second 

11 to breathe every so often, okay? 

12 And, as I said, I was supposed to retire 

13 and go from a single mom with two jobs to a 

14 disability check once a month. I drove all the 

15 way from Buffalo, New York, with some great 

16 people from PUSH Buffalo that I recently got to 

17 know and looked upon them with great respect, and 

18 the National People's Action Group. And I'm here 

19 representing the mosaic and distinct and diverse 

20 community that's underrepresented, silent, and 

21 non-English speaking of the Lower West Side, who 

22 also happen to be the most underserved and 
72 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 disenfranchised people, and we are here in 

2 support of the Clean Power Plan. 

3 I've been a victim as well as many others 

4 who have talked here, physically and negatively 

5 impacted by the lack of clean air and the failure 

6 to thrive in a community due to the lack of 

7 sustainable clean resources in our area. 

8 The Lower West Side suffers from the 

9 highest level from asthma and bronchitis and 

10 other debilitating and deadly breathing disorders 

11 because our rights have been stripped like mines 

12 have been stripping, like coal has been 

13 stripping, and has silenced us for just too long. 

14 And enough is enough. 

15 We have had some of the worst winters, 

16 and we've been affected by the crippling storm of 

17 1977 that shut down the city of Buffalo. We've 

18 also had -- granted, we didn't have a Hurricane 

19 Sandy, but we did have the winter storm of 2005, 

20 the October storm, based upon the fact that the 

21 climate is changing, and it is damaging our area, 

22 okay? 
73 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 We've had some of the most dangerous 

2 toxic levels of emissions because we live, I live 

3 on the border of the Canadian and American Peace 

4 Bridge, which has one of the highest emissions of 

5 gas and other toxic carcinogens because there 

6 have been on checks and balances on the state, 

7 city, and federal level to protect us. 

8 Big companies like Bethlehem Steel -- I 

9 know people remember Bethlehem Steel -- and 

10 Tonawanda Coal Factory have continually damaged 

11 us and walked away with not a slap on the wrist 

12 of fine or even been given any compensatory 

13 damages as it was to people like us who have been 

14 left sick, and some of us have already died 

15 because of it. 

16 I'm barely leave my home, okay, due to 

17 some breathing and seizure disorders that are 

18 based upon environmental factors, okay? And I 

19 don't know a lot of the people at PUSH. They 

20 always see me with a hat on, okay? I took the 

21 hat off because I'm not going to be embarrassed 

22 if you see patches of my hair that have fallen 
74 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 out because of environmental factors, okay? So 

2 I'm not going to be embarrassed anymore. I'm 

3 just going to be angry, okay? 

4 And so I barely leave my home, but I knew 

5 that this was important, and I needed to get here 

6 to let you know that if you look at me, stop and 

7 look at me, I'm the face of somebody that's sick. 

8 I'm the face of somebody that's dying because all 

9 these companies are not just supporting and 

10 sustaining a renewable plan that can help us, 

11 okay? 

12 We're tired of Band-Aids. We're tired of 

13 HEAP that's supposed to help our community and 

14 yet at the same time that's all it is. It's a 

15 Band-Aid. We need a program. We need a plan 

16 that will ensure that we can face what's 

17 happening in our communities. 

18 As I said, a clean energy incentive plan 

19 for low income that gives us access to renewable 

20 energy, we need mandatory and equal accessibility 

21 to these programs. Polluters in our areas should 

22 be made to pay with monies to support and 
75 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 establish renewable and have energy-efficient 

2 sustainable programs that will help our community 

3 with jobs, with dignity, with respect for our 

4 lives and our future, okay? 

5 I bought my house as a single mother, 

6 okay, 18 years ago. I worked two jobs, okay? 

7 Two jobs, okay? And I supported my child, and I 

8 was forced to retire, okay, in 2006. I used most 

9 of my retirement money, okay, trying to keep my 

10 gas bills down, trying to keep a roof from 

11 falling in on me because I didn't know about 

12 weatherization until I found the people from the 

13 PUSH program to tell me about the fact that 

14 there's some monies that can help me, okay? But 

15 that's still in and of itself not enough in terms 

16 of what needs to be done for programming, okay? 

17 So I'm looking at this and I'm saying 

18 that I'm learning a lot from them because then I 

19 decided, okay, I want some solar, I want some 

20 solar panels put on my house, okay? Eventually, 

21 I want to be able to control what's going on in 

22 my household and lower some of my bills. Well, 
76 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 guess what? My roof cannot sustain solar panels, 

2 so I got to wait until a grant is available so 

3 that I can get my roof fixed so that I can get 

4 that grant so that I can live on the monthly 

5 disability monies that I get from the federal 

6 government. 

7 And granted, I'm happy to get it, but I 

8 worked two damn jobs for it, okay? I worked for 

9 it, okay? 

10 So, when I look at what's going on in 

11 this city and I look at my house, I have yet to 

12 put the heat on, and I know that it's been cold. 

13 It has been cold. We have had some really great, 

14 nice days, but it has been cold. I have not put 

15 the heat on because I cannot afford, because I do 

16 not want to afford to have to depend on HEAP in 

17 order to pay my bills, okay? It's not a matter 

18 of being proud. It's just a matter of saying, 

19 "Hey, listen, we got to do better. We need to do 

20 better," okay? 

21 So what I want you people to understand 

22 is I'm angry. I feel very desperate. I feel 
77 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 very disenfranchised. We need these programs. 

2 We need to back them up. We need that they 

3 provide jobs to compensate and reimburse us not 

4 temporarily, until their conscience is cleared, 

5 but to bring the justice and the dignity back to 

6 our communities, okay? 

7 These types of clean energy incentive 

8 programs need to expand yearly, and you can see 

9 the research. Come and fix my house. Come and 

10 see some of the houses that need to be fixed in 

11 the area of Buffalo, in the area of Chicago, 

12 okay, in the area of Pittsburgh, okay? Look at 

13 these houses, and you'll have enough research to 

14 realize, okay, that these things need to be 

15 invested, okay? Not just medical corridors that 

16 supply all these wonderful jobs for people that 

17 we can't afford because we are not trained 

18 properly to have, okay, or fixing up these 

19 waterfronts that we can't afford to take part in 

20 the activities because we can't afford to pay our 

21 bills, let alone that, okay? 

22 So I'm looking at -- 
78 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Ms. Velez, thank you so 

2 much for being here today. Can you wrap it up? 

3 MS. VELEZ: Oh, yes. I am going to wrap 

4 it up right now, okay? 

5 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

6 MS. VELEZ: I want you to please support 

7 and understand that we need an emission reduction 

8 credit and renewable energy allowance that will 

9 come back to our communities and to bring the 

10 jobs, build the economy that was destroyed, 

11 replace not with bad or dirty solutions, but a 

12 new temporary way to see the future grow in our 

13 communities and to help us to understand that we 

14 have pride, and we want to see a whole complete 

15 city that is worth coming to on all sides, West 

16 Side, East Side, North Side, and South Side. 

17 Thank you. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. 

20 I do appreciate the many people from 

21 Buffalo and Detroit and other places for 

22 traveling here today to be with us. Thank you 
79 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 all for being here today. 

2 I would next like to call Vicki Dobbins 

3 and Susan Koehler. 

4 MS. KOEHLER: My name is Susan Koehler, 

5 K-o-e-h-l-e-r. I'm from Pittsburgh, and I don't 

6 represent an organization. I come here speaking 

7 as a private citizen, a mother, and a grandmother 

8 of six lively children. I would like to see 

9 those lively children inherit an Earth worth 

10 living in. 

11 I try to talk to them about our living 

12 habits. I take them out to my compost bin and 

13 make them dump the stuff in. We drive greener 

14 cars, but nothing will matter so much as lowering 

15 pollution from the nation's power plants. 

16 I fear for these grandchildren in many 

17 ways. Climate disasters, including drought and 

18 coastal flooding, may generate refugees of a 

19 number that eclipses the current refugee crisis 

20 in Europe. Equally frightening to me is the 

21 unreliability in food production that will result 

22 from changes in weather. 
80 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 In March of this year, the global monthly 

2 average of carbon dioxide concentration surpassed 

3 400 parts per million for the first time since 

4 such measurements were taken. The past three 

5 decades have been hotter than any time in the 

6 past 1,400 years. We've had a very pleasant 

7 early November, and that's okay, but the arc of 

8 weather change is unmistakable. 

9 No one can deny this. The question is, 

10 how much of this is caused by human behavior? 

11 Again, the answer, to me, is hard to avoid. An 

12 increase in carbon dioxide levels are at the 

13 heart of the change, and humans put a lot of 

14 carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. 

15 Power plants are the nation's largest 

16 source of carbon pollution. There is a lot to 

17 like in the Clean Power Plan. I trust in local 

18 solutions, and this one encourages the states to 

19 think within and beyond the three building blocks 

20 recommended by the EPA. Each state has its own 

21 mix of energy types, and I call upon my own state 

22 of Pennsylvania to become a leader in planning 
81 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and implementing a solution. I believe there is 

2 an economic boost awaiting those who are 

3 aggressive in finding new solutions. 

4 Some business interests have their 

5 doubts, but going green can put green in our 

6 pockets as well. There's a very classic case 

7 from the auto industry back in the '70s when they 

8 resisted a requirement that they phase in 

9 catalytic converters for new cars and trucks. I 

10 often think about this one because rather than 

11 cause the auto industry to collapse, there was a 

12 whole new global market for the catalytic 

13 converters. 

14 I want to say thank you to the EPA for 

15 taking action to cut carbon pollution from power 

16 plants. I think the clean power plant is truly a 

17 momentous step forward to protect our health and 

18 future generations. 

19 Thank you. 

20 [Applause.] 

21 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

22 Ms. Dobbins. 
82 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MS. DOBBINS: Good morning. Thank you 

2 again for having us today. My name is Vicki 

3 Dobbins, spelled V-i-c-k-i. Last name, 

4 D-o-b-b-i-n-s. I am a member and volunteer for 

5 the Michigan United and National People's Actions 

6 and the Sierra Club, a resident of River Rouge 

7 48218, 48217, and Southwest Detroit 48229. We 

8 are the highest and most polluted area in the 

9 state of Michigan. 

10 As a former River Rouge School Board 

11 member, I have seen devastation to students due 

12 to dirty air, water, and land. Students spend 

13 many hours in hospitals and emergency rooms due 

14 to asthma, bronchitis, and other breathing 

15 problems. I also suffer from asthma, lose my 

16 breath, choke, gasp for air. I am asking for 

17 clean air, and we believe that you can do it. 

18 We are asking the EPA to reduce the 

19 emissions and help our community enjoy clean air, 

20 reduce pollution and help us with the change and 

21 future environment issues. 

22 As an asthma patient myself, I use an 
83 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 inhaler. I also have a machine, and I also have 

2 pills and other ways of healing myself, garlic as 

3 one. 

4 So what my suggestion to the EPA is if 

5 you're having difficulties helping to clean the 

6 air, maybe you will provide each asthma, 

7 bronchitis patient an inhaler or maybe an 

8 aspiratus so that they can walk around with the 

9 machine that will help them to breathe. There's 

10 got to be some solutions. We're looking for 

11 solutions here. 

12 As a substitute teacher on yesterday, I 

13 spoke with a young lady who was in ROTC. She was 

14 fully uniformed and ready to go. As a 12th 

15 grader, she wanted to go and join the Navy for 

16 females. So I congratulated her and told her how 

17 wonderful I thought it was that she would have a 

18 bright future for herself. She says, "No, ma'am. 

19 I have asthma. I have bronchitis. I'm sick." 

20 This was a 16-year-old who has no future. We 

21 need to stop and think about it, gentlemen, 

22 because it's not just me. We're talking about 
84 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 young people who are in high school, who already 

2 know that with asthma, who is going to hire them? 

3 It's an insurance risk. Who is going to give 

4 them a break? 

5 I already had insurance. They need 

6 insurance, but if you don't want to do that, an 

7 aspiratus for each person. This is $650 if 

8 anybody wants to know, without insurance. 

9 Thank you so very much for listening to 

10 me. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you very much. 

12 [Applause.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: I would next like to call 

14 Patrice Tomcik and Lois Bower-Bjornson. 

15 MS. TOMCIK: Good morning. My name is 

16 Patrice Tomcik, T-o-m-c-i-k, and I'm a field 

17 organizer with Moms Clean Air Force. And I want 

18 to start off by thanking the EPA for finalizing 

19 carbon pollution limits that provide the clear 

20 standards of performance for limiting carbon 

21 pollution, and that provides states with the 

22 flexibility to achieve those standards, so thank 
85 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 you very much. 

2 We have an obligation to our children and 

3 to future generations to protect them from the 

4 carbon pollution that is putting their health at 

5 risk and fueling extreme weather across the 

6 country. Children are at a higher risk for the 

7 negative health effects of our changing climate, 

8 including respiratory illness and asthma attacks. 

9 According to the American Lung Association, 

10 approximately 55 million children are living in 

11 191 counties nationwide where the air quality 

12 places them at risk for premature death, 

13 aggravated asthma, difficulty breathing, 

14 cardiovascular harm, and lower birth weight. 

15 This is a tragedy. 

16 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are 

17 responsible for 40 percent of the manmade carbon 

18 dioxide emissions for decades, and these dirty 

19 power plants have been allowed to dump unlimited 

20 amounts of carbon into the air. 

21 We need America's Clean Power Plan to be 

22 enacted swiftly and in full force. Doing so will 
86 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 reduce heat-trapping gases like carbon and help 

2 limit climate change that affects us all. 

3 Children are particularly vulnerable to the 

4 health impacts of climate change. Children's 

5 body systems are still developing and don't 

6 detoxify themselves like adults can. 

7 In addition, children have a longer shelf 

8 life, meaning that they have more years to live 

9 with these exposures and to develop adverse 

10 health effects. 

11 The Clean Power Plan will create 

12 immediate health benefits for everyone by 

13 reducing soot and smog-causing pollution. Cuts 

14 to smog and soot come along with reducing carbon 

15 pollution, and this will bring major health 

16 benefits for American families. 

17 In 2030, this will mean up to 3,600 fewer 

18 premature deaths, 90,000 fewer asthma attacks in 

19 children, 1,700 fewer hospital admissions, and 

20 avoiding 300,000 missed days of school and work. 

21 The Pittsburgh area is on the American 

22 Lung Association's list of areas of poor air 
87 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 quality year after year. I would like to get off 

2 this list. 

3 My father lives about 1.5 miles away from 

4 the Cheswick Power Plant, and this is also the 

5 location of where my elementary school was, so 

6 there's lots of children there. As I drive to 

7 visit him, I see the plumes from the stacks float 

8 over the river towards his house. The front of 

9 the house is covered with soot, even though there 

10 is not a major highway near his house. He just 

11 has a heart attack this past February with 

12 quintuple bypass surgery. 

13 The Clean Power Plan has benefits that 

14 far outweigh the costs. Cutting carbon pollution 

15 from power plants will have public health and 

16 climate benefits estimated at 55- to 95 billion 

17 per year by 2030. It will also drive innovation 

18 and clean energy sources to power the 21st 

19 century, growing our economy, and creating 

20 renewable energy jobs in manufacturing in those 

21 installations. 

22 Today the U.S. is generating 3 times more 
88 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 wind energy and 20 times more solar power than 

2 when President Obama took office, and the solar 

3 industry is adding jobs 10 times faster than the 

4 rest of the economy. 

5 The Clean Power Plan is the most 

6 impactful step in limiting the health impacts of 

7 climate change. I support the common-sense 

8 solution in the Clean Power Plan. 

9 To ensure clean air for all Americans, 

10 the EPA must act timely, effectively, and ensure 

11 real-world emission reductions are secured when 

12 states decline to do so. The Clean Power Plan is 

13 an historic step forward to give our kids and 

14 grandkids the cleaner, safer future they deserve. 

15 Thank you very much. 

16 [Applause.] 

17 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

18 MS. BOWER-BJORNSON: Hi. My name is Lois 

19 Bower-Bjornson. It's L-o-i-s, B-o-w-e-r, with a 

20 dash, B-j-o-r-n-s-o-n. I live in Scenery Hill, 

21 Pennsylvania. I'm about 40 miles south of the 

22 city. I am surrounded currently in my home in a 
89 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 2-to-5-mile areas with probably 10 gas wells. 

2 Now, it's not just 10 because in each pad of 

3 those wells are 6 to 8, sometimes 10 wells, so 

4 you're looking at approximately 80 wells. That's 

5 in a 2-mile radius of my home. We also have two 

6 compression stations. I have a pipeline of 75 

7 feet on my property, so we're literally bombarded 

8 with it. If you go to a point in Scenery Hill, 

9 you can count all the wells in Canonsburg, 

10 Masontown. You can see the steel building. You 

11 can count every single well in the area, and it 

12 literally encircles us. 

13 My family has grown up in this area for 

14 200 years, so we literally have been raped by the 

15 coal industry, the steel industry, and now oil 

16 and gas. They have been allowed to pollute our 

17 water. Our water, we get a notice every other 

18 month. It is toxic. It is the Monongahela 

19 River. It's now on the Endangered Species List. 

20 You can look all that up. It was polluted when I 

21 was a child growing up, and it did get cleaner, 

22 and now it's polluted again. The things that are 
90 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 in the water cannot come out. We can't drink our 

2 water. We have a reverse osmosis system in our 

3 home for drinking, but we still have to bathe in 

4 it and wash our clothes in it, not to mention the 

5 methane from the gas oils, not to mention the 

6 carbon dioxide that is all around us. This has 

7 been going on for hundreds of years where big 

8 industry has been allowed to really kill us, and 

9 it's about time that something is done about it. 

10 I have four children myself. I have a 

11 small business on my property. My dancers look 

12 out, and we look at the new gas well that's 

13 literally 2 miles from our house that just went 

14 up. It's about time that people really start to 

15 realize what's happening here, and that hopefully 

16 when wind and solar start to make as much money 

17 as fossil fuels, which is really the big issue 

18 here, it will take over. 

19 There are jobs available in every facet 

20 of clean energy. I realize that it's hard to let 

21 go of that, but it is a dying industry, and it is 

22 vitally important now for everybody's future. 
91 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And we're all older, but we've got kids, and we 

2 have grandchildren. And I think people need to 

3 step out of their bureaucratic chairs and look at 

4 your kids, look at your grandchildren, and 

5 realize that if this isn't done that there won't 

6 be any future because we can't drink money and 

7 breathe month. So all the money in the world 

8 won't help us, even to go to Mars. We've got to 

9 live up there too. 

10 [Laughter.] 

11 MS. BOWER-BJORNSON: So I appreciate your 

12 time. It's highly imperative. I think everyone 

13 knows it, and for people that still want to try 

14 to deny climate change and global warming from 

15 any perspective -- do you remember the aerosol 

16 cans that we don't do anymore and all that? How 

17 big is the hole in the ozone layer now? So to 

18 say that that doesn't happen is quite silly and 

19 ignorant to a degree. 

20 I commend that this step is being taken 

21 and hope that it continues and quickly. Thank 

22 you. 
92 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 [Applause.] 

2 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

3 I'd next like to call Annie Regan and 

4 Margaret Parsons. 

5 And let me just ask: Does it feel any 

6 cooler in here to people? I know it was very 

7 warm when we started. Does it feel better? 

8 [No audible response.] 

9 MR. KOERBER: Okay, good. It feels 

10 better to me too, but I want to make sure you're 

11 all comfortable. 

12 MS. REGAN: Good afternoon. My name is 

13 Annie Regan, A-n-n-i-e, R-e-g-a-n, and I am the 

14 Western Pennsylvania Outreach Coordinator at 

15 PennFuture, a statewide environmental 

16 organization that works to create a just future 

17 where nature, communities, and the economy 

18 thrive. We enforce environmental laws and 

19 advocate for the transformation of public policy 

20 and public opinion to restore and protect the 

21 environment, safeguard public health, and reduce 

22 the consequences of climate change within 
93 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Pennsylvania and beyond. 

2 As a native of the Northern Pittsburgh 

3 area and a recent college graduate, I am 

4 concerned about the future we're providing for 

5 future generations. That said, I am grateful for 

6 the opportunity to speak today on the Clean Power 

7 Plan. 

8 As the third largest contributor to U.S. 

9 carbon emissions, Pennsylvania has an important 

10 role to play in the nation's reduction goals. 

11 Carbon pollution from power plants is our 

12 nation's bigger driver of climate change. 

13 Fortunately, but not surprisingly, polling 

14 demonstrates that Pennsylvania voters 

15 overwhelmingly support the Clean Power Plan. 

16 Citizens of the Commonwealth recognize that 

17 coordinated action is necessary to mitigate the 

18 impacts of climate change. 

19 To that end, PennFuture was fortunate to 

20 have the opportunity to accompany a diverse group 

21 of Pennsylvanians on a trip to Washington, D.C., 

22 to advocate for the Clean Power Plan before 
94 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 lawmakers. Many of these folks will be offering 

2 their own testimony here today. The group 

3 included a clean energy advocate, a sportsman, a 

4 labor leader, a clean air advocate, and a clean 

5 water advocate. 

6 This visit was noteworthy because the 

7 group of attendees highlighted the diversity of 

8 perspectives that support the Clean Power Plan 

9 and strong climate action here in Pennsylvania 

10 and beyond. Participants delivered to elected 

11 officials the message of the Clean Power Plan is 

12 flexible and achievable, as the Commonwealth has 

13 the opportunity to create its own customized plan 

14 to reduce carbon pollution that is specific to 

15 its unique situation. 

16 To be sure, Pennsylvania is well 

17 positioned to meet its carbon reduction goals 

18 under the Clean Power Plan, all while becoming a 

19 clean energy leader. 

20 Pennsylvania is fortunate to be one of 

21 the many states with a governor who intends to 

22 submit a state implementation plan that takes 
95 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 into account Pennsylvania's unique situation. 

2 The Wolf administration has done a tremendous job 

3 in ensuring public participation in this process 

4 by hosting a series of 14 listening sessions 

5 across the state as well as a 2-month comment 

6 period on the Clean Power Plan. 

7 For states that are unwilling to protect 

8 public health from carbon pollution by meeting 

9 reduction targets under the Clean Power Plan, the 

10 federal implementation plan is a good backstop. 

11 It's the ultimate backstop and the disincentive 

12 for states that have no intention of submitting 

13 their own plan. 

14 While it's encouraging that the EPA is 

15 serious about achieving compliance, even if 

16 states don't want to cooperate, it's essential to 

17 emphasize that Pennsylvania's best option is to 

18 pursue a strong state implementation plan. 

19 Pennsylvania is well positioned to draw its own 

20 aggressive, flexible state implementation plan 

21 that puts the Commonwealth on track for a zero 

22 carbon energy future. 
96 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 While the federal implementation plan 

2 can, and should, mirror some of the positive 

3 elements of a strong state plan, amass a 

4 trade-ready structure and clean energy 

5 incentives, for example, we should be extremely 

6 cautious to choose rigidity over flexibility. 

7 History has shown what has happened when 

8 we let others dictate our actions. The 

9 Commonwealth's energy strategy over the last two 

10 centuries has been dominated by extractive 

11 industries that leave the state to clean up the 

12 mess it's made. Pennsylvania must take advantage 

13 of the opportunity to create its own state plan 

14 that prioritizes a zero carbon energy sources 

15 that don't harm our health or our climate. 

16 Thank you. 

17 [Applause.] 

18 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

19 DR. PARSONS: Good morning. I am 

20 Margaret Parsons, P-a-r-s-o-n-s, and I am the 

21 Healthy Air Campaign Coordinator for the American 

22 Lung Association in Pennsylvania, which 
97 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 represents over 1.5 million people in the 

2 Commonwealth who suffer from chronic lung disease 

3 as well as the millions more who want to breathe 

4 clean air and protect their health. 

5 We thank Administrator Gina McCarthy and 

6 the Environmental Protection Agency for the 

7 opportunity to offer remarks on the proposed 

8 federal implementation plan. We support the 

9 essential step of reducing carbon emissions using 

10 the standards set in the Clean Power Plan, and we 

11 anticipate that states will be able to use the 

12 recommendations in these plans to reduce carbon 

13 emissions, even more than the plan requires. 

14 Making progress to reduce carbon 

15 pollution from power plans will help protect 

16 public health and provide much needed state 

17 leadership in combatting climate change. We 

18 would like to focus on the following issues. 

19 Health risks of climate change. The 

20 changing climate threatens the health of 

21 Americans alive now and in the future 

22 generations. Climate change is already affecting 
98 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the health of citizens throughout the United 

2 States. We urge EPA to act rapidly with real 

3 measurable changes that can protect the health of 

4 everyone. 

5 The risks we face are multiple and 

6 profound. Over the past few years, we've seen 

7 more and more evidence that these risks imperil 

8 the lives and health of millions. Consequently, 

9 the nation has a short window to act to reduce 

10 those threats. 

11 Coal-fired power plants are the largest 

12 single source of carbon pollution in the United 

13 States. Scientists warn that the build-up of 

14 carbon pollution will create warmer temperatures, 

15 which will harm public health in various ways. 

16 Carbon pollution contributes to climate change 

17 and the warmer temperatures that fuel the 

18 formation of ozone pollution. Nationwide, the 

19 Clean Power Plan is expected to prevent up to 

20 90,000 asthma attacks and 3,600 premature deaths 

21 each year starting in 2030. 

22 Ground-level ozone is likely to be worse 
99 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 as a result of climate change. Ozone is a 

2 serious respiratory irritant that can lead to 

3 asthma attacks, hospital admissions, and 

4 premature death. Extreme weather threatens 

5 respiratory health. According to the National 

6 Climate Assessment, Pennsylvania and the 

7 Northeast can expect to see an increase in the 

8 frequency, intensity, and duration of heatwaves 

9 due to climate change, with many more days above 

10 90 degrees Fahrenheit than have been experienced 

11 over the last 40 years. 

12 The combination of heat, stress, and poor 

13 air quality can pose a major health risk to 

14 vulnerable groups: young children; the elderly; 

15 and those with preexisting health conditions, 

16 including asthma. The great news is that by 

17 cutting carbon, we can reduce other toxic 

18 pollutants that are harming us now. Life-saving 

19 benefits to public health can begin immediately. 

20 We encourage participation in the Clean 

21 Energy Incentive Program. This program offers us 

22 real opportunities to help improve the lives and 
100 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 health of citizens. We especially support using 

2 CEIP to help our neighbors who have the fewest 

3 resources. With this investment, states can 

4 provide them with much needed help to cut their 

5 energy use, lower their monthly energy bills, and 

6 maybe even become part of the growing economy of 

7 jobs that we'll need to install and maintain 

8 these cleaner energy systems. 

9 We support programs and policies to 

10 significantly reduce demand for energy by 

11 increasing the efficiency of U.S. homes and 

12 businesses, strengthening appliance standards, 

13 and reducing the energy consumption of consumer 

14 products. We support incorporating energy 

15 efficiency measures in every aspect of this plan, 

16 which is crucial to helping us reduce carbon 

17 pollution. 

18 We support programs and policies that 

19 encourage the development, deployment, and 

20 integration of clean, non-combustion, alternative 

21 technologies in all areas of our communities, in 

22 homes, businesses, and industries, as well as the 
101 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 power sector. 

2 We support increasing the use of the 

3 cleanest energy sources, wind and solar. We find 

4 the term "renewable energy" to be overly broad 

5 for policymaking. Not all fuels labeled 

6 "renewable" are equally good for our health. We 

7 recommend expanding the use of solar and wind 

8 power, not dirty air sources that burn fuels, 

9 including wood or biomass, that produce 

10 significant and dangerous air emissions and are 

11 not close to being carbon neutral. This will 

12 reduce emissions that trigger asthma attacks and 

13 heart attacks, cause cancer, and shorten life. 

14 We do not support the use of burning 

15 wood, biomass or trash or solid waste. We are 

16 pleased that the federal implementation plan will 

17 not allow these fuel options and encourage EPA to 

18 strengthen the model rule to eliminate them as 

19 well. 

20 Thank you. 

21 [Applause.] 

22 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 
102 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Before I call our next speakers, I'd like 

2 to thank all the speakers who have come here 

3 today to testify. Your testimony has been very 

4 clear, very thoughtful, and very heartfelt, and 

5 it's very important to EPA, so thank you all. 

6 And I also want to thank the audience for 

7 listening carefully and being so respectful of 

8 all of our speakers. It's very much appreciated, 

9 so thank you all. 

10 I'd next like to call Daniel Doubet and 

11 Kevin Stewart. Apologies for any 

12 mispronunciation. 

13 I will note my last name is often 

14 mispronounced and sometimes misspelled, so -- 

15 [Laughter.] 

16 MR. DOUBET: Thank you again for hearing 

17 all this testimony. My name is Daniel Doubet, 

18 D-o-u-b-e-t, and I am a leader with Keystone 

19 Progress based in Erie, Pennsylvania. 

20 I'm originally from Crawford County, 

21 Pennsylvania, and reside in Erie County today. 

22 We're the region with the first oil wells in the 
103 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 western hemisphere, so I'm sorry about that. 

2 So we've seen the boom and bust, and 

3 mostly bust, from the dirty fuels industry and 

4 many other industries as well. In fact, just 

5 this week, the largest employer in Erie, 

6 Pennsylvania, General Electric, just announced 

7 they will lay off a third of their workforce. 

8 So the Clean Power Plan is a great first 

9 step, and I applaud you on that effort, but EPA 

10 policy must protect community and decentralized 

11 renewable power projects because in addition to 

12 generating power sustainably, there is an 

13 opportunity to generate sustainable jobs and 

14 income for communities like mine. 

15 I would like to share with you a story 

16 from a Keystone Progress leader in Erie whose 

17 names is Michael White: "In Erie, it can be hard 

18 to find a job. I've been in and out of the 

19 workforce facing layoffs almost my entire life of 

20 52 years. Just this week we found out that GE is 

21 laying off a third of their workforce. This is 

22 just the latest example of how big companies and 
104 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 big market forces can devastate a community like 

2 mine. A job working to provide clean energy for 

3 my town would be a great job that gave me 

4 dignity, and I'd be providing an important 

5 service to my community. Climate change advisors 

6 say it would create 3.3 million jobs for people 

7 like me, and renewable energy means renewable 

8 income. So, as long as the sun is shining or the 

9 wind blows, I'll have my livelihood." 

10 And so the Clean Power Plan at its heart 

11 is the goal is to build a healthy, sustainable, 

12 and thriving community, and that's why we hope 

13 the EPA will remove barriers to community 

14 renewable energy projects or distributed 

15 renewable energy generation in the federal 

16 implementation plan and all models. 

17 Instead of big energy companies 

18 controlled by Wall Street investors and a top 1 

19 percent of income earners, community-controlled 

20 energy projects build wealth for struggling 

21 workers, families, and communities. 

22 And so, in closing, I'll just say that 
105 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the EPA is trying to do the right thing, and I 

2 applaud that, and I am excited by it. And 

3 they're doing well by the environment, but you 

4 can put people and planet first by making sure 

5 that these projects are controlled and that we 

6 have -- and that we are able to provide the 

7 protections for community-based energy projects. 

8 So I thank you for your time. 

9 [Applause.] 

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

11 MR. STEWART: Good morning. I thank the 

12 panel for your work here today. I am Kevin 

13 Stewart, S-t-e-w-a-r-t. I serve as Director of 

14 Environmental Health for the American Lung 

15 Association, the Mid-Atlantic. 

16 And since you have already heard from Dr. 

17 Parsons in her testimony on behalf of the 

18 American Lung Association in Pennsylvania, 

19 essentials -- many of our positions with respect 

20 to the Clean Power Plan, I will not revisit all 

21 of them, though they may be covered in the 

22 written testimony I have provided you. 
106 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 The EPA should also expect to receive 

2 from our national office, detailed written 

3 comments on the proposed rule, including on the 

4 model plan. 

5 The American Lung Association of the 

6 Mid-Atlantic has championed the Environmental 

7 Protection Agency's efforts to set strong carbon 

8 pollution standards for both new and existing 

9 power plants and applauds those state 

10 administrations that have committed to work to 

11 make the promise of the Clean Power Plan a 

12 reality. 

13 And with respect to the proposed rule, we 

14 emphasize the following. We support the Clean 

15 Power Plan because it will reduce carbon and 

16 other air pollutants that cause asthma attacks, 

17 heart attacks, and premature death. We strongly 

18 advocate that the final Clean Power Plan rule be 

19 strong enough to achieve the health benefits EPA 

20 has estimated for it to produce by 2030. 

21 Many communities of color and low income 

22 face higher risks from air pollution and climate 
107 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 change. Polluting power plants often are located 

2 near where many people in these communities live 

3 and work. We've heard this today. 

4 Frequently, individuals in these 

5 communities already have a history of prior 

6 exposure to toxic emissions such as arsenic, 

7 lead, and carcinogens such as benzene, and for 

8 many reasons, people in such at-risk communities 

9 also face a greater underlying burden of lung 

10 disease, making them even more vulnerable to 

11 these pollutants. 

12 As the EPA has begun to do, policymaking 

13 officials at all levels should even more strongly 

14 reach out to citizens and leaders in 

15 disproportionately vulnerable communities, 

16 including those with high rates of asthma and 

17 other lung diseases, to engage them in ensuring 

18 that EPA's model plans truly address 

19 environmental injustice and in developing the 

20 eventual state or federal implementation plans. 

21 We are concerned the carbon trading risks 

22 leaving parts of the population we serve bearing 
108 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the burden for others, and therefore, we 

2 recommend that the EPA take steps to ensure that 

3 reductions in carbon emissions be secured from 

4 all sources lacking reasonable controls, rather 

5 than by means of an emissions trading mechanism 

6 that would allow many facilities to continue to 

7 remain inefficient and highly polluting. 

8 We are glad that EPA is aware of the 

9 potential for a state to claim to be meeting its 

10 requirements under the Clean Power Plan while the 

11 actual emissions reductions it claims fail to 

12 materialize on the global carbon balance sheet, a 

13 problem known as leakage. Indeed, because this 

14 work is being done in the context of a planetary 

15 crisis, all carbon emission reductions must be 

16 demonstrated to occur from a global perspective 

17 and without delay in order to be claimed for 

18 credit toward Clean Power Plan budgets. 

19 Harold Wimmer, our national president and 

20 CEO, has remarked, "Carbon pollution that is 

21 driving climate change poses a current and 

22 growing threat to lung health and public safety. 
109 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 The Clean Power Plan is a tremendous step forward 

2 in the United States fight against carbon 

3 pollution. It will bring not only long-term, but 

4 immediate health benefits to the American people. 

5 Despite this, multiple challenges have filed 

6 lawsuits to delay or block the plan, and they 

7 seek to thwart the much needed clean-up of carbon 

8 pollution from the power sector, the largest 

9 contributor to climate change in the nation. 

10 But the evidence is clear. Climate 

11 change and carbon pollution threaten the health 

12 of millions of Americans, and that's why the 

13 American Lung Association has committed to and is 

14 taking steps to defend the Clean Power Plan 

15 against its opponents, and that's why we continue 

16 to urge governors to maximize the public health 

17 benefits of the Clean Power Plan as they develop 

18 their implementation plans. And that's why we 

19 encourage the Environmental Protection Agency to 

20 adopt the strongest, enforceable rules that will 

21 achieve meaningful reductions in carbon pollution 

22 and thereby achieving many health co-benefits. 
110 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Thank you. 

2 [Applause.] 

3 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

4 I would next like to call Alison Steele 

5 and Elizabeth Kerr. 

6 MS. STEELE: Good morning, and thank you 

7 for the opportunity to testify today regarding 

8 the federal implementation plan. My name is 

9 Alison Steele. That's A-l-i-s-o-n, S-t-e-e-l-e. 

10 I am a Pennsylvania native, and I've been a 

11 Pittsburgh resident for the past 6 years since 

12 hearing my MBA in sustainability at Duquesne 

13 University. 

14 I am speaking this morning as the manager 

15 of Community Programs and Advocacy at 

16 Conservation Consultants, Inc., in Pittsburgh. 

17 CCI was founded in 1978 as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit 

18 organization with the purpose of promoting 

19 responsible energy and resource use in the 

20 residential sector. Serving a variety of clients 

21 throughout Western Pennsylvania, from utility 

22 companies to home owners, our mission is to 
111 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 educate energy users about the benefits of energy 

2 efficiency and to assist in home weatherization. 

3 Our services make homes healthier and more 

4 affordable for their residents, while at the same 

5 time reducing their impact on the environment. 

6 I also serve on the board of the Keystone 

7 Energy Efficiency Alliance, KEEA, which 

8 represents 50 member organizations statewide and 

9 advocates on behalf of energy efficiency and 

10 advanced energy professionals at the local, 

11 state, and federal levels. In Pennsylvania 

12 alone, this group consists of over 4,200 

13 businesses, employing over 57,000 workers. 

14 CCI and KEEA applaud the EPA for holding 

15 these hearings throughout the country and 

16 providing opportunities for stakeholder feedback, 

17 thus ensuring a quick start and an open process 

18 in developing the federal implementation plan. 

19 We have more detailed feedback, which we will 

20 submit in writing, but given the limited time 

21 today, we will use this speaking opportunity to 

22 provide a more concise testimony. 
112 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 The final version of the Clean Power Plan 

2 does not list demand-side energy efficiency as a 

3 building block among the methods of missions 

4 reduction. However, we encourage the EPA to 

5 promote and incorporate energy efficiency as a 

6 key component of the federal implementation plan. 

7 Energy efficiency represents the cleanest, 

8 cheapest, and fastest method of missions 

9 reduction. The benefits of demand-side energy 

10 efficiency include reduce energy cost for 

11 consumers, reduced demand on the grid, job 

12 creation, workforce development, improved health 

13 of our citizens and our environment, and a 

14 significant step toward reaching our emissions 

15 reduction goals under the Clean Power Plan. 

16 As we look toward energy sources of the 

17 future, natural gas is described as a bridge 

18 fuel. To extend the bridge metaphor, we need to 

19 consider what will be on the other side of the 

20 bridge, and that's energy efficiency and 

21 renewable generation. In order to ensure that 

22 this bridge leads somewhere, we need to start 
113 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 building the infrastructure for energy efficiency 

2 and renewable energy now. The Clean Power Plan 

3 can provide the opportunity for developing these 

4 options. 

5 For communities at financial risk, there 

6 is concern that actions taken under the Clean 

7 Power Plan will drive up energy rates and impact 

8 jobs. However, participation in the Clean Energy 

9 Incentive Program can serve as a protection 

10 against those risks. The CEIP provides an 

11 opportunity to benefit from early action, earning 

12 credits for renewable energy generation and 

13 energy efficiency in low-income areas. 

14 The provisions for renewable energy 

15 development and low-income community support will 

16 enable regions currently heavy in conventional 

17 fuel-related jobs to transition to green-collar 

18 advanced energy jobs. We recommend the EPA 

19 include options for early action in the CEIP with 

20 start dates set as early as possible to avoid any 

21 delays in energy efficiency or renewable energy 

22 projects that would otherwise have been rolled 
114 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 out sooner. 

2 The need for energy efficiency services 

3 is clear. The operation of buildings in which we 

4 live and work in this country accounts for 39 

5 percent of our total energy consumption. 

6 Residential buildings account for over half of 

7 that number. 

8 There's a need to improve the performance 

9 of our existing buildings through weatherization 

10 and other upgrades. That demand calls for a 

11 well-developed workforce of architects, 

12 engineers, auditors, and contractors who can 

13 incorporate the principles of energy efficiency 

14 into high-performance buildings. 

15 In order to provide a standardized method 

16 of evaluation for building energy efficiency, we 

17 recommend the EPA consider adopting a framework 

18 such as the Department of Energy's Home Energy 

19 Score, which provides an asset-based, 

20 miles-per-gallon-type score indicating the extent 

21 to which a home can be considered energy 

22 efficient. 
115 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Once again, we thank you for the 

2 opportunity to submit this commentary in support 

3 of energy efficiency as the cleanest, cheapest, 

4 and fastest method of compliance with the Clean 

5 Power Plan. We encourage the EPA to recognize 

6 demand-side energy efficiency as the best system 

7 of emissions reduction and to establish it as the 

8 first method of emissions reduction within the 

9 federal implementation plan. 

10 Thank you. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. And the name of 

12 your organization again? 

13 MS. STEELE: Sorry? 

14 MR. KOERBER: The name of your 

15 organization? 

16 MS. STEELE: Conservation Consultants, 

17 Inc. 

18 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

19 MS. KERR: Hello. My name is Elizabeth 

20 Kerr. That's E-l-i-z-a-b-e-t-h. My last name is 

21 Kerr, K-e-r-r. Thank you for fitting me in 

22 today. 
116 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I lead Communications and Policy at 

2 Business Forward, a trade association that works 

3 with tens of thousands of business leaders from 

4 around the country, and last year when the EPA 

5 issued its draft cost estimates for the Clean 

6 Power Plan, we published a report examining how 

7 the proposed carbon standards we're talking about 

8 here today will affect electricity costs for 

9 manufacturers, and those studies' authors include 

10 Jim Doyle, Business Forward's president; Kim 

11 Hill; Deborah Manke; and Richard Wallace. And 

12 they all have decades of experience performing 

13 business analysis in the manufacturing industry. 

14 Critics argue that the new EPA standards 

15 will cause American manufacturers to shut down 

16 their U.S. factories, but if you take into 

17 consideration what manufacturers actually spend 

18 on electricity and how that spending relates to 

19 the rest of their budgets, you will find that 

20 projected rate increases will have a very small 

21 impact on manufacturers' bottom lines. 

22 Electricity represents less than 1 
117 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 percent of a manufacturer's total costs. That 

2 average is taken across 19 industries. 

3 We issued in an initial report last year 

4 when EPA released the draft Clean Power Plan 

5 rule, and the agency's associated projected rates 

6 indicated that electricity prices would rise 

7 about 6 percent by 2020. And that means that the 

8 average industry's total cost would rise less 

9 than .06 percent, if you compare that to that 

10 less-than-1-percent figure. 

11 And today I can report that our updated 

12 calculations based on the new cost projections 

13 associated with the final Clean Power Plan rule 

14 find that the industry's total cost would rise 

15 less than .029 percent, since EPA's reduced its 

16 prediction of electricity rate increases to 3.2 

17 percent. In other words, a part that costs a 

18 manufacturer $100 would increase less than 3 

19 cents as a result of changes in electricity rates 

20 due to CPP-related policy and market effects. 

21 The strategy employed by EPA to reduce 

22 carbon emissions is common among experts who 
118 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 propose climate change solutions. Risky 

2 Business, an economic-minded organization 

3 dedicated to addressing climate change, founded 

4 and led by business leaders Hank Paulson, Michael 

5 Bloomberg, and Tom Steyer, suggest promoting 

6 energy policies and encourage producing 100 

7 percent of the nation's energy from non-carbon 

8 sources by 2015. 

9 A study released this week by ICF 

10 International and NextGen America suggest 

11 policies that require 50 percent of electricity 

12 to come from non-carbon sources by 2030. So the 

13 EPA's more modest policy suggest a reduction of 

14 32 percent by 2005 levels is comparable to about 

15 40 percent of all power generated from power 

16 plants coming from non-carbon sources. 

17 And extensive research suggests that all 

18 of these targets are feasible and will boost 

19 America's economic competitiveness. In fact, the 

20 ICF report finds that adopting targets like 50 by 

21 2030 would increase hundreds of thousands of 

22 jobs, increase household income, and boost GDP. 
119 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Meanwhile, hundreds of business leaders around 

2 the country who have attended our Business 

3 Forward briefings have expressed grave concerns 

4 about the possible economic outcomes if we do 

5 nothing to address climate change. 

6 Our research backs these stories that we 

7 hear from business leaders every single day. 

8 Supply chains represent about 60 percent of a 

9 manufacturer's cost. That is 60 times more than 

10 electricity costs. Over the past 4 years, 

11 American factories have been disrupted by 

12 typhoons in Thailand, hurricanes in the Gulf of 

13 Mexico, droughts in Texas, tornadoes in Kentucky, 

14 and falling water levels across the Great Lakes. 

15 This is part of a wave of severe weather that 

16 from 2011 to 2013 cost our economy more than $200 

17 billion. 

18 Cargo ships crossing Great Lakes are 

19 carrying less cargo to avoid running aground. 

20 Ports are preparing for more hurricanes. 

21 Highways and bridges are subject to more frequent 

22 delays, and cargo train cars detoured during the 
120 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 2013 winter storms took months to arrive at their 

2 destinations. 

3 Together, these events are shutting down 

4 or slowing down plants for hours, days, and 

5 sometimes weeks at a time, and this is actually 

6 quite new. Manufacturing plants across all 

7 industries have experienced four unexpected 

8 disruptions each year on average. These have 

9 cost them about 20 hours of total downtime per 

10 year, and these are typically caused by equipment 

11 failures, power outages, the absence of key 

12 personnel, and severe weather. But with this 

13 increase in frequency and intensity of severe 

14 weather, the production delays are also 

15 increasing. 

16 An auto plant in Indiana that rarely lost 

17 production due to severe weather lost 4 days in 

18 the winter of 2013 alone. 

19 Leading employers here in Pittsburgh have 

20 begun reporting these risks to their 

21 stockholders. Floods in Thailand, 4 years ago, 

22 severely disrupted factories that supplied PPG's 
121 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 optical business. U.S. Steel has explained that 

2 lower water levels in the Great Lakes could 

3 increase shipping costs, and Heinz depends on the 

4 global crop of tomatoes grown in the U.S., 

5 Portugal, Australia, and Canada. And as we all 

6 know, much of America's tomatoes come from 

7 California, which is experiencing historic 

8 drought. 

9 To appreciate what climate change could 

10 do to manufacturers, it helps to point out that 

11 supply chains are growing bigger, more 

12 specialized, and more global and incredibly fast. 

13 These very characteristics that make them more 

14 efficient also make them more interdependent, and 

15 that interdependence is what makes severe weather 

16 such a big deal. 

17 Just-in-time inventory practices can 

18 reduce a factory's space needs by 80 percent and 

19 cut its labor cost by as much as half, but just 

20 in time also means that your plant operates with 

21 only several hours of parts inventory on your 

22 site. So if supply trucks are delayed more than 
122 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 a few hours, your plant shuts down. 

2 Having a global supply chain means that 

3 your factories here in Pittsburgh can be affected 

4 when one of your suppliers in Thailand is flooded 

5 or when the Port of New York/New Jersey is slowed 

6 down by East Coast hurricanes. 

7 Because the Midwestern U.S. is host to 22 

8 auto assembly plants, an example from that 

9 industry is useful. Assembly plants are massive, 

10 with thousands of employees and several hundred 

11 suppliers working together to produce about 

12 300,000 vehicles a year. Each hour of 

13 weather-related shutdowns can cost an assembly 

14 plant $1.25 million or more in lost production. 

15 That's each hour. 

16 By comparison, the cost of electricity 

17 rates to that plant is modest. An auto assembly 

18 plant currently spends about $60 on electricity 

19 per car that it assembles. If that plant 

20 produces 300,000 vehicles a year and rates rise 

21 3.2 percent, as EPA projects, the increase of the 

22 plant's annual electricity-related cost is far 
123 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 less, probably about half actually, than the cost 

2 of losing just 1 hour of production due to severe 

3 weather. 

4 So, in conclusion, careful study of 

5 business data shows that severe weather is far 

6 more expensive to America's manufacturers than 

7 the cost associated with the EPA standards to 

8 reduce climate change. 

9 Thank you. 

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

11 [Applause.] 

12 MR. KOERBER: Next, I'd like to call Ray 

13 Robertson [sic] and Mindy Comangane, and if I 

14 mispronounce it that poorly, I'll just spell it, 

15 C-o-m-a-n-g-a-n-e. 

16 [No audible response.] 

17 MR. KOERBER: No, not here? 

18 MR. ROBERTS: Okay. 

19 MR. KOERBER: Mr. Robertson, you're 

20 flying solo? 

21 MR. ROBERTS: It's "Mr. Roberts." You 

22 were worried about mispronouncing her name. You 
124 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 got -- that's okay. So my name is Ray Roberts, 

2 and I support the EPA in taking its action 

3 through the Clean Power Plan to address our 

4 climate crisis because some action is better than 

5 on action. 

6 Climate scientists are warning us that 

7 the EPA's targets for CO2 reduction are far too 

8 low. How fast do we need to change? Well, 

9 climate science also tells us that there is a 

10 window of time where our actions today can still 

11 prevent the worst of the climate disasters down 

12 the road, but exactly how big our time window 

13 range is, that's uncertain. It depends on human 

14 variables like how strong the EPA rules are. 

15 So, first, I call on the EPA to raise the 

16 requirements on reducing carbon dioxide and other 

17 greenhouse gases in order to more accurately 

18 address the scale and the urgency of our climate 

19 crisis. 

20 I'm also here to thank the EPA for 

21 listening to multiple testimonies, including mine 

22 last year, that called for a carbon fee and 
125 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 dividend at the state level to become an allowed 

2 means for states to follow your rules. 

3 On page 899 of the Clean Power Plan, you 

4 did indicate that it is one way that states could 

5 comply. That one page out of a 1,560-page 

6 document seems to indicate just how much simpler 

7 it would be for states to use instead of a rate 

8 or mass-based cap-and-trade market. 

9 So, second, in your amendments to the 

10 Clean Power Plan, please spell it out. I ask 

11 that you make an explicit comparison between the 

12 simplicity of a rising carbon fee where all the 

13 money could be returned to citizens and compare 

14 that with the complexity of a cap-and-trade 

15 marketplace. 

16 Third, I ask that you compare how a 

17 carbon fee and dividend could satisfy multiple 

18 Clean Power Plan rules by adding more than one 

19 greenhouse gas that the EPA is regulating. 

20 Fourth, I am asking you to explain in 

21 detail how a state would use modeling of their 

22 carbon fee and dividend that would satisfy your 
126 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 rules to reduce greenhouse gas pollutants. 

2 Please break it down. Spell it out. Problems 

3 with the EPA rules promoting cap and trade should 

4 be explicitly laid out in these amendments. 

5 Fifth, cap and trade can be extremely 

6 complex and very costly to set up. Cap and trade 

7 can be regressive. It can cost the poorest 

8 people the most, as short-term energy costs rise 

9 before they are expected to fall after a few 

10 years. 

11 And seventh, cap and trade has a history, 

12 has a demonstrated history of being both 

13 corrupted and gamed. A carbon tax without a 

14 dividend can also be regressive. I need for you 

15 to study recent research by resources for the 

16 future that compares how different carbon tax 

17 methods affect the economy. 

18 I am convinced that the very best methods 

19 of applying a carbon tax clearly use a dividend 

20 to all citizens because the people most affected 

21 by rising cost of greenhouse gas pollution are 

22 the poor and middle class. Carbon fee and 
127 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 dividend is simple, transparent, and with a 

2 dividend, it can resolve any regressive problems. 

3 These are things that states need to know that 

4 they can use to comply with the Clean Power Plan 

5 rules. 

6 Please use these amendments to raise the 

7 bar. Make your rules have a larger impact to 

8 really make a difference on our planet's climate, 

9 and please use these amendments to make explicit 

10 comparisons between cap and trade and what 

11 economists tell us would be better, a carbon fee 

12 that provides a dividend equally to all. 

13 Please use these amendments to compare in 

14 detail specific problems with using cap and trade 

15 versus an alternative like a carbon fee with a 

16 dividend. 

17 Thank you. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

20 Is Mindy Comangane in the room? 

21 [No audible response.] 

22 MR. KOERBER: Okay. If not, we will move 
128 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 on to Perry Recker and Philip Angert. 

2 MR. RECKER: I'm Mr. Perry Recker, and 

3 I'm also here with the Citizens Climate Lobby, 

4 and I just represent a subgroup in District -- PA 

5 District 18, Congressional District 18. 

6 So I'm here just to say the same things 

7 that Mr. Roberts just said. I'm not going to 

8 take up your time by reading that again. I just 

9 want to add my voice from a different area of the 

10 region, okay? Thank you. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Okay. Thank you for being 

12 here, sir. 

13 MR. ANGERT: My name is Philip Angert, 

14 with one "l," A-n-g-e-r-t. I'm here with the 

15 Sierra Club. 

16 Coal mining has a long and a proud 

17 history in the United States. For decades, 

18 miners have endured the deadly dangers of working 

19 underground from black lung disease, mine 

20 collapse. Living in company towns, brutal mine 

21 owners that have used the government law 

22 enforcement personnel and private agencies like 
129 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the Pinkertons to harass, beat, and even kill 

2 miners when they went out on strike for better 

3 living conditions and decent wages. 

4 Coal miners have provided the fuel to 

5 heat our homes and businesses, the energy to our 

6 factories. Provided the coke to make power, our 

7 steel mills have given us -- give us the metal to 

8 build America and also fight against foreign 

9 powers and dictators in both World Wars and 

10 numerous other conflicts around the world, giving 

11 us the freedoms we now enjoy. 

12 Miners have been a key strength in the 

13 union movement in this country that fought long 

14 and hard to win OSHA protections, unemployment 

15 compensation, and minimum wage laws for working 

16 Americans, as well as welfare, Medicare, and 

17 Social Security that so many people with 

18 disabilities, children, and the elderly depend on 

19 to live their lives with dignity they deserve as 

20 citizens of the richest country in the world. 

21 Losing coal mining jobs is something I do 

22 not want to see, but since the 1970s, scientists 
130 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 have been warning us about the effects of human 

2 activity on our planet such as 

3 chlorofluorocarbons, CFCs, destroying the Earth's 

4 protective ozone layer and greenhouse gases 

5 disrupting our climate. 

6 Politicians have pretended to be 

7 scientists and refuted these theories. 

8 Corporations have covered up their own research 

9 results that agree with these theories. This has 

10 resulted in an action by our citizens and 

11 government to take the small steps needed to 

12 prevent gross climate change and avert the need 

13 for more drastic measures. 

14 Now the evidence of climate change is 

15 making use: melting glaciers, polar ice caps 

16 melting, stronger storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, 

17 and typhoons, and the hottest month in history 

18 this past July. They're all providing 

19 irrefutable evidence that we are the victims of 

20 the climate change that was predicted 40 years 

21 ago. 

22 If climate change is not dealt with now 
131 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and averted, the results will be rising sea 

2 levels flooding coastal cities, famine, hunger, 

3 and war on an unprecedented scale. Starving 

4 people will kill for food. 

5 We cannot be shortsighted in this 

6 situation. We must, like some Native Americans, 

7 think seven generations ahead. We must consider 

8 the world we live in, the world that we will 

9 leave to our grandchildren and the children of 

10 their grandchildren, seven generations. We've 

11 been too lax for too long. We must act now to 

12 prevent disasters far worse than we have seen to 

13 this date. Bold steps must be taken to prevent 

14 catastrophe. 

15 Unfortunately, the burning of natural 

16 gas, petroleum products, and coal is the main 

17 cause of our current situation. Again, I am 

18 proud of our coal miners' heritage and do not 

19 want our current generations of miners to lose 

20 their jobs, but we must take action now and 

21 switch to energy conservation, renewable energy 

22 sources, and provide good-wage green energy jobs 
132 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 to the displaced miners, so that our children and 

2 the children of their grandchildren, seven 

3 generations, inherit a world that all humans can 

4 survive in with the peace, prosperity, and 

5 freedoms we wish to bestow upon them. 

6 The EPA has made huge strides towards 

7 these ends with the Clean Power Plan. 

8 Implementation of this plan will promote the 

9 health and save the lives of thousands in the 

10 near future and save countless lives in 

11 generations to come. 

12 We're grateful to the EPA for taking 

13 these bold steps. Thank you. 

14 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

15 [Applause.] 

16 MR. KOERBER: Do we have anybody else in 

17 the room who has signed up to testify today? 

18 [No audible response.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Okay. We're at 11:45, and 

20 I propose we just hold for 5 more minutes and see 

21 if anybody else shows up who has registered to 

22 give testimony. If nobody shows up in the next 5 
133 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 minutes, then we will break for lunch, but we'll 

2 just pause for 5 minutes and then see where we're 

3 at. 

4 [Pause.] 

5 MR. KOERBER: I said we'd wait 5 minutes. 

6 We'd been 6. Why don't we wait 4 more minutes 

7 because we do have speakers registered to testify 

8 at 11:50 and 11:55, so out of courtesy for the 

9 11:55 speaker, in case that person shows up, we 

10 will wait for them. If they're not here at 

11 11:55, we'll adjourn at that point. Thank you. 

12 [Pause.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: Okay. We're at 11:55. Our 

14 registered speakers have not shown up, so we will 

15 take a break for lunch. We will re-adjourn at 1 

16 p.m. promptly. Thank you all for being here this 

17 morning. Thank you. 

18 [Luncheon recess taken from 11:56 a.m. to 

19 1 p.m.] 

20 MR. KOERBER: Well, good afternoon. It's 

21 one o'clock. We'll get started in just a minute 

22 or two. I'm waiting for them to send up the note 
134 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 cards that has the list of speakers for this 

2 afternoon. 

3 [Pause.] 

4 MR. KOERBER: Good afternoon. Welcome to 

5 today's public hearing on EPA's proposed federal 

6 plan and model rules for Clean Power Plan. My 

7 name is Mike Koerber. I'm with EPA's 

8 Headquarters' Air Office. Joining me on the 

9 panel today are Meg Victor and Brian Keaveny, 

10 also with EPA's Headquarter Air Office; and David 

11 Tally with EPA's Regional Air Office in 

12 Philadelphia. 

13 Again, we're here to listen to your 

14 comments on EPA's proposed federal plan and model 

15 rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

16 existing power plants. 

17 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 

18 largest source of United States carbon dioxide 

19 emissions, or carbon pollution, accounting for 31 

20 percent of U.S. total greenhouse gas emissions. 

21 Reducing carbon pollution from power plants is an 

22 essential step in lessening the impacts of 
135 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 climate change and providing a more certain 

2 future for our environment, our health, and 

3 future generations. 

4 On October 23rd, the EPA published in the 

5 Federal Register its proposed federal plan to 

6 implement emission guidelines for power plants 

7 under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air Act. The 

8 proposed federal plan will achieve the same level 

9 of emissions performance as required of state 

10 plans under the Clean Power Plan. Federal plans 

11 will be finalized only for those states with 

12 affected power plants that the EPA determines 

13 have failed to submit an approvable state plan by 

14 the relevant deadlines set in the emission 

15 guidelines. 

16 In those states where a federal plan may 

17 be required, this plan will implement the same 

18 emissions guidelines for affected power plants 

19 outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It would not 

20 require additional control requirements or impose 

21 additional costs. 

22 Even where a federal plan is put in place 
136 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 for a particular state, that state will still be 

2 able to submit a plan which, if approved, will 

3 allow the state and its sources to exit the 

4 federal plan. States may take delegation of 

5 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

6 order to become the primary implementers or 

7 submit partial state plans in order to take over 

8 the implementation of a portion of a federal 

9 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 

10 adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 

11 to facilitate compliance and lower cost to the 

12 benefit of power generators and consumers. 

13 The proposal also includes a model rule 

14 for those states that are developing their own 

15 state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 

16 rate-based and mass-spaced model trading rules in 

17 Summer 2016. A state program that adheres to the 

18 model trading rule provisions, when final, would 

19 be presumptively approvable. There are 

20 stand-alone portions in the model trading rules, 

21 such as the evaluation, measurement, and 

22 verification procedures for emission rate credits 
137 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 that would be approvable even if a state adopted 

2 an approach that differs in other respects from 

3 the model rule. 

4 Also, the proposal contains a finding 

5 that it is necessary or appropriate to implement 

6 a Section 111(d) federal plan for affected power 

7 plants located in Indian Country. 

8 CO2 emission performance rates for these 

9 facilities were finalized in the Clean Power 

10 Plan. 

11 The proposal also contains information on 

12 how the EPA will reach out to communities 

13 throughout the comment period and an overview of 

14 the actions that the EPA is taking to ensure that 

15 vulnerable communities are not being 

16 disproportionately impacted by this rulemaking. 

17 If you would like more details on the 

18 proposed rules, there are fact sheets available 

19 at the registration desk downstairs. 

20 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

21 through a few housekeeping items. First, please 

22 be sure that you have checked in at the 
138 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 registration desk, even if you are not planning 

2 to speak today, and if you signed up to speak 

3 online or by phone but haven't told us that 

4 you're here, please step out to the registration 

5 desk and let the EPA staff know that you've 

6 arrived. 

7 Second, please put and keep your phones 

8 on vibrate. 

9 And finally, please be respectful of all 

10 of our speakers today. We want to hear from 

11 everyone who has signed up to speak, and I ask 

12 that you all listen quietly and patiently while 

13 they give their testimony. 

14 All right. Here's how today's hearing 

15 will work. I will call up speakers in pairs. 

16 When your name is called, please come to the 

17 speakers table at the front of the room, up here. 

18 When I call on you to speak, please state your 

19 name and spell your name. Your comments will be 

20 transcribed and included in the record of 

21 comments on the proposed rule. 

22 Each speaker will have 5 minutes. We 
139 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 have a timer light to help you know how much time 

2 you have left to speak. That's on the table up 

3 front. When the light turns from green to 

4 yellow, that means you have 1 minute remaining. 

5 When it turns red, that means you're at 5 minutes 

6 and it's time to wrap up. 

7 When you are finished speaking, please 

8 remain at the table until the next person has 

9 completed their testimony. I will then call up 

10 the next pair of speakers and so on. 

11 This is your time. We are here to listen 

12 to you today, and the panel members may be asking 

13 you a few questions at the end of your testimony 

14 to clarify your comments. If you've brought a 

15 written copy of your testimony, please give it to 

16 the staff at the registration desk before you 

17 leave. 

18 We will put any written comments 

19 submitted today in the official docket for the 

20 proposed rule. 

21 We also have comment cards available at 

22 the registration desk if you'd like to submit 
140 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 additional written comments today. If you want 

2 to comment in writing later, stop by the table 

3 near the registration desk and pick up a copy of 

4 the instructions for submitting written comments. 

5 Comments must be received by January 21st. Let 

6 me assure you that EPA gives just as much 

7 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

8 as we do comments we receive at public hearings 

9 like this. So, if you have more comments that 

10 you'd like to provide, please submit them by the 

11 comment period deadline, January 21st. Your 

12 comments are greatly appreciated, and they will 

13 all be reviewed. 

14 Finally, if you have questions throughout 

15 the day, please see the staff at the registration 

16 desk, and someone will assist you. 

17 Thanks again for being here, for taking 

18 time to share your comments with EPA, and it's 

19 time to get started. 

20 So I'll start off by calling the first 

21 two speakers after lunch, Mark Dixon and Taryn 

22 Jones. 
141 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MS. JONES: Hello. My name is Taryn 

2 Jones, T-a-r-y-n, J-o-n-e-s. Good afternoon, I 

3 am here proudly representing Detroit, Michigan; 

4 Michigan United; and National People's Action. 

5 I support a Clean Power Plan to protect 

6 communities that represent people of color. You 

7 must impose a plan that reduces pollution in 

8 communities of color and invest in renewable 

9 clean energy. 

10 Let me ask you a few questions. How many 

11 days have you or your child missed from work or 

12 school because you had an asthma attack? How 

13 much money do you pay your energy company a month 

14 and yet still not have a zero balance? 

15 Personally, I have missed countless days 

16 of schools and activities because I myself have 

17 dealt with severe asthma and chronic bronchitis. 

18 Now, I wasn't born with these conditions. 

19 Rather, they developed during the '90s. 

20 Fact. Air pollution is horrifying 

21 expensive to families. The average 

22 asthma-related hospitalization costs about $235 
142 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 per visit. There were 841 hospitalizations in 

2 Michigan in 2010 due to local coal-related asthma 

3 attacks along, for a total cost of about $200,000 

4 for those who suffered the attacks. 

5 Do you know what it feels like to walk 

6 outside and feel like you're going to die because 

7 you're gasping for air that's so smog-filled? 

8 There isn't enough oxygen per cubic inch to 

9 breathe. It sends you into a panic state. It 

10 makes you aware of a frightening reality. I 

11 could die if I don't get help. 

12 Fact. Michigan is one of the 25 

13 smoggiest states in the U.S. In 2010, there were 

14 14 days when the air was unhealthy to breathe due 

15 to smog pollution. Exposure to smog pollution 

16 damages lung tissue, decreases the ability to 

17 breathe, and exacerbates chronic diseases like 

18 asthma. These effects are especially harmful for 

19 children and the elderly. 

20 Do you know what it's like to go day 

21 after day to the emergency room for albuterol 

22 breathing treatments and inhalers? Because you 
143 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 can't afford a machine at home, and you can't 

2 afford an inhaler that costs at least $100 

3 apiece. That's me. 

4 Fact. About 144,000 children suffer from 

5 pediatric asthma in Michigan. Their chronic 

6 condition is worsened by polluted air, causing 

7 them to miss school and making it more difficult 

8 for them to play. 

9 I watched my little cousin gain 70 pounds 

10 in the last 7 years due to steroids for asthma. 

11 As much as a lively child as he is, he was forced 

12 to miss out on things like playing basketball or 

13 football or running track because he could 

14 potentially die out there on that field. What 

15 type of life is that for a child? 

16 Fact. Air pollution in Michigan is 

17 heartbreaking, literally. Pollution from 

18 coal-fired power plants was responsible for 1,114 

19 heart attacks and 329 additional hospitalizations 

20 for cardiac problems. 

21 My elderly mother suffers from congestive 

22 heart failure. I can't move out of her home 
144 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 because of the fear that her lungs will fill up 

2 with fluid and there will be no one there to help 

3 her and get her to a hospital to save her life. 

4 Worry and stress clouds my life as well as many 

5 people in my family and community due to health 

6 issues. That ain't right. 

7 On Sunday, November 1st, Tangela Harris, 

8 a bustling 34-year-old community activist tied. 

9 How and why, you ask? She suffered a massive 

10 asthma attack that caused her to go into cardiac 

11 arrest. She lost control of all her bodily 

12 fluids and had severe damage to her brain, lung, 

13 and kidneys. After 4 days, her body just gave 

14 out. 

15 How many more people have to die because 

16 of the quality of air in Detroit? Because it's 

17 not suitable to breathe. We must tell big 

18 businesses "no" when it comes to undermining the 

19 Clean Power Plan and weakening the EPA's ability 

20 to protect our health. The time is now to do the 

21 right thing and implement policy and protects my 

22 people. We will no longer sit back and get 
145 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 rolled over because we are too sick and tired to 

2 speak up. I refuse to die directly because of my 

3 health issues, but I will give my life to take a 

4 stand for the greater good. 

5 Thank you. 

6 [Applause.] 

7 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

8 Mr. Dixon? 

9 MR. DIXON: Hello. My name is Mark 

10 Dixon, M-a-r-k, D-i-x-o-n. 

11 And I'll be attending the COP21 climate 

12 negotiations in Paris this December, where the 

13 world's eyes will be focused on America and a few 

14 other major industrialized nations, urging them, 

15 urging us to put in place an agreement sufficient 

16 to hold our global temperatures below 2C and 

17 maybe even 1.5C if we're lucky. 

18 The Clean Power Plan under review today 

19 is an integral part of our intended nationally 

20 determined contribution, or INDC, our negotiating 

21 position at this summit. Some would say that 

22 your plan is visionary, powerful, or a good 
146 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 start. I say that it is pathetically 

2 insufficient. 

3 The United Nations itself has determined 

4 that the combined INDCs leading into COP21 are 

5 only sufficient to keep temperatures below 2.7C 

6 above preindustrial levels, and other smart 

7 analysts think those commitments may only limit 

8 warming to about 3.5C. 

9 And NASA's own scientist, James Hansen, 

10 has even called the 2C target "catastrophic." He 

11 advocates for less than 1C of warming. 

12 It's like you're designing a Space 

13 Shuttle that gets halfway into orbit before 

14 falling back to Earth, exploding, and killing 

15 large portions of humanity in the process, and 

16 you're asking us to comment on this plan. 

17 Sure. Getting halfway into orbit is a 

18 good start. You could even say that we're headed 

19 in the right direction. But if by design the 

20 ship is doomed to failure, then I think that you 

21 need to go back to the drawing board and come 

22 back with a plan for an orbit-ready spacecraft. 
147 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And in the meantime, while we wait for you to 

2 figure out how to politely ask businesses to 

3 remove the CO2 from their climate-destroying 

4 energy facilities, we in Pittsburgh and Detroit 

5 suffer with some of the worst air quality in the 

6 country. 

7 I'm stuck designing and building a 

8 homemade air filter fan to try to clean my indoor 

9 air. Here again, my description of your plan as 

10 pathetically insufficient seems relevant. I got 

11 the idea for that fan from a blog, from a guy in 

12 China. 

13 Indeed, at times, it feels like I'm 

14 talking to a very polite wall, begging for those 

15 in power to hear my cry. It reminds of the 

16 refugees in Europe pleading with the walls of 

17 administrators and sometimes just pleading with 

18 brick walls, desperate and aching to be heard by 

19 anybody who will listen and help. 

20 It turns out that your very own National 

21 Academy of Science has done a bit of research 

22 into the sea-level impacts of climate change and 
148 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 climate central built from those numbers to 

2 determine that at 3C above pre-industrial levels, 

3 which your plan helps us to accomplish, we will 

4 see between 250- and 600 million people displaced 

5 by sea-level rise. And you think that we have an 

6 illegal immigration problem now? If we took 1 

7 second of silence for each climate refugee, we 

8 could very well be here for 19 years. 

9 But I have 5 minutes. So in my remaining 

10 time, I would like you to simply reflect on some 

11 of the many climate refugees that your plan 

12 creates: a family that loses everything; a 

13 farmer forced to leave family land; a teenager 

14 forced to steal to keep from starving; a child 

15 with no home, with no country, multiplied by 

16 millions. Imagine one such refugee. Now two. 

17 Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. 

18 Ten. Eleven. Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. 

19 Fifteen. Sixteen. 16 million. 160 million. 

20 600 million. 

21 Thank you for your time. 

22 [Applause.] 
149 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. Thank you 

2 both. 

3 Next, I would like to call Diana Morales 

4 and Talan O'Brian -- or it could be Talia. I'm 

5 sorry. I can't read the writing, which isn't 

6 your writing. It's our writing, so -- 

7 MS. MORALES: Hello. My name is Diana 

8 Morales. I am here from Michigan United. I am 

9 representing Detroit, Michigan. 

10 I will make it pretty short for you guys 

11 because I've heard all of the statistics, and 

12 we've had some brilliant professors come up here 

13 and really, really just break everything down, 

14 all the facts for your guys, and I'm sure you 

15 guys already know all of the numbers. 

16 I'm just going to narrow it down to 

17 pretty much my community situation. G was up 

18 here earlier. He's from River Rouge, and I also 

19 grew up in River Rouge and Ecorse. And I want to 

20 take myself out of it because I'm going to 

21 survive it, but a lot of the people in my 

22 community don't feel as if they can survive this. 
150 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And I take it that all of you went to 

2 school. You took history class. You understand 

3 why the people who are in these communities are 

4 struggling. You understand that they were given 

5 poor housing, and you understand that they are 

6 disenfranchised. You understand that they are 

7 marginalized. You understand that their labor 

8 was exploited. I take it that you know all of 

9 this stuff from history class, so I don't think 

10 that you would need to know that. 

11 So these people are already in a bad 

12 situation. They're already impoverished, and the 

13 war on drugs didn't help the community either. 

14 So you know that. 

15 But from a more personal point, I want 

16 you to try to put yourself in our position. I'm 

17 a college student. Just like all of you, I am 

18 trying to better myself and my community. I do 

19 not have a platform. I do not have a safety net, 

20 whereas a lot of people have -- you can go be a 

21 full-time student, and your parents can support 

22 you and pay for your books. I don't have that 
151 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 privilege, and a lot of the people in my 

2 community don't have that privilege. And a lot 

3 of us don't buy our books. Quite frankly, we go 

4 to the library or we find a way to get out of 

5 buying our books because we don't want -- we 

6 don't have the money to. We have to help our 

7 parents. 

8 My father is sick. He's been breaking 

9 his body for 24 years in the construction 

10 business, and I see him breaking his body. And I 

11 tried to come to this country from Mexico and 

12 say, "I'm going to try to figure out a way to 

13 make a lot of money, so that I could just get 

14 them out of this rut," and I realize that to make 

15 a lot of money in this country, you have to do a 

16 lot of terrible things. And that left me in a 

17 horrible position, and I see it now. 

18 This is why people are so reluctant. 

19 This is why some of you are so reluctant to maybe 

20 be more radical or be more persistent or have 

21 more of an urgency for this because you, too, 

22 want to maintain power and stability, and I 
152 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 understand that. 

2 But I want you for one second to put 

3 yourself in my position. I am a college student 

4 who -- I have no vices. I literally am going to 

5 study a field where I'll end up teaching, 

6 hopefully, maybe an adjunct, maybe some tenure, 

7 hopefully. I don't know. But if I can, that 

8 would be great. 

9 And I just need you to empathize with me 

10 at least as a college student, as a member of the 

11 society. I need you to understand that we are 

12 all trying to survive, one way or another, and 

13 it's hard to admit that you have privilege when 

14 we all suffer, when we all have issues, when we 

15 all have gone through hardships. It's hard to 

16 understand that, but we're all privileged in some 

17 way. And this is just something where you have 

18 more of a platform. You're in a better position 

19 to better the lives of others, and I would 

20 recommend that you amplify the voices of those 

21 who don't have a voice and who don't have the 

22 position and the privilege that you do. 
153 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And that's all that I want to say. Thank 

2 you. 

3 [Applause.] 

4 MR. KOERBER: Thank you very much. 

5 Ms. O'Brian? 

6 MS. O'BRIAN: Hi. My name is Talia 

7 O'Brian. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and 

8 I'm representing the Pennsylvania Sierra Club 

9 today. 

10 Growing up, the issues of our climate 

11 were never really brought to light to me, and it 

12 wasn't until my senior year in high school that I 

13 realized that we are killing and destroying the 

14 Earth, and not only that, but we're also harming 

15 ourselves. 

16 When I heard that the Clean Power Plan 

17 had been passed, I was really excited, and I knew 

18 that fewer asthmas attacks and premature deaths, 

19 they were going to soon decline with time. But 

20 now knowing that we are past that point, it's 

21 really heartbreaking to know that we can't really 

22 do anything about that right now. 
154 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Although fossil fuel-fired power plants 

2 should be something that our children as taught 

3 when they are growing up, and they should be 

4 taught that our generation was a generation that 

5 was able to put an end to harmful greenhouse 

6 gases. 

7 We need to stop filling our polluters' 

8 pockets with money when all they do in return for 

9 us is fill our air with it. 

10 I refuse to push my generation's climate 

11 crisis onto my children's shoulders. Climate 

12 change is real, and families all around us are 

13 suffering from it every day. I urge you to 

14 create a strong federal implementation plan that 

15 takes the steps to cut out carbon and create a 

16 sustainable future for our generations. 

17 That's it. Thank you for your time. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you both 

20 for being here today. 

21 I'd like to call Jordan Estevao and Dr. 

22 Joh Atherton. My apologies for any 
155 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 mispronunciation. 

2 MR. ESTEVAO: My name is Jordan Estevao, 

3 spelled J-o-r-d-a-n, E-s-t-e-v-a-o. I'm here 

4 representing National People's Action. 

5 And I want to start with a note about 

6 kind of notice and locations. So we, an 

7 organization that's -- you know, that follows 

8 these issues learned about this hearing about 2 

9 weeks ago and reached out to our partners and 

10 allies in the region to encourage them to come to 

11 it, and that's part of the reason why there's 

12 some participation here, but 2 weeks' notice is 

13 not a lot for most folks. That limits the 

14 participation that you're going to have to people 

15 that are able to take off work and make travel 

16 arrangements that are close enough to make it 

17 here. 

18 And the fact that there are only four of 

19 these hearings, three of them on the East Coast 

20 and then one in Denver, again, does not speak to 

21 an agency that's really interested in getting a 

22 lot of diversity of input into its plans, and so 
156 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 that's very disappointing. 

2 The states are required, according to the 

3 rules, as I understand it, to solicit meaningful 

4 input from vulnerable communities, which is very 

5 loosely defined, if at all defined in the rule, 

6 and that's one thing that we think should be 

7 strengthened. But, also, we think that the 

8 federal EPA should be modeling that kind of 

9 really meaningful reaching out for input. 

10 Any case, we're here to support the Clean 

11 Power Plan. As others have stated, it doesn't go 

12 far enough to curb emissions, but it is the best 

13 we have so far, and we want to make sure that it 

14 is implemented in a good way in all of our 

15 states. And to that end, the federal 

16 implementation plan should be the gold standard 

17 for a plan, but which remain that ideally, it 

18 would be a plan that goes furthest to prioritize 

19 renewables, to prioritize energy efficiency, 

20 rather than encouraging states to rely more on 

21 natural gas and fracking, rather than relying 

22 more on nuclear energy or incinerated biomass, 
157 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 all of which carry their own terrible 

2 environmental costs and all of which tend to be, 

3 again, concentrated in low income and communities 

4 of color. So the federal implementation plan 

5 should be the best at avoiding those pitfalls. 

6 The Clean Power Plan, as it's written, is 

7 written with the intent to encourage carbon 

8 trading. We don't think that that's the best way 

9 to reduce carbon emissions. We don't think it 

10 does enough to eliminate point source pollution 

11 in low-income and communities of color, and we 

12 think that inherently, a plan that's designed to 

13 help industry make money, that's the wrong 

14 priority, like it should be designed to keep our 

15 communities healthy and safe from pollution and 

16 to revitalize the energy economy in our states. 

17 So we think that the FIP should include 

18 greater set-asides for people of color and low19 to moderate-income communities. We think that it 

20 should clear the way for community-controlled 

21 projects to benefit from state incentives, and we 

22 think that it needs to ensure that the jobs that 
158 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 are created, hopefully in energy efficiency and 

2 renewables, are good quality, living-wage jobs 

3 that help to revitalize the communities that have 

4 been most impacted and most harmed by carbon 

5 pollution, as many others have stated today. 

6 So the Clean Energy Incentive Program, 

7 we're happy that it's included in the CPP, but we 

8 feel that set-asides for low- to moderate-income 

9 communities and for energy efficiency and 

10 renewables need to be expanded. We feel that 

11 states should have -- should be required to 

12 participate in the CEIP. It should not be 

13 optional. 

14 We also feel that renewables allowances 

15 should also be extended to non-profits and 

16 community-based programs rather than just 

17 generators and utilities. 

18 And then we also believe that the EPA 

19 should allow weatherization efforts to generate 

20 emission reduction credits. 

21 So these are a few ways. We're going to 

22 submit a lot more by way of written comments and 
159 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 how we think the CPP and the FIP can be improved. 

2 Thanks very much for having me. 

3 [Applause.] 

4 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

5 Dr. Atherton? 

6 DR. ATHERTON: My name is John Atherton. 

7 That's A as in apple, t-h-e-r-t-o-n, and John 

8 with an "h." 

9 Renewable energy sources such as solar, 

10 wind, geothermal, hydro, when combined with 

11 energy efficiency can provide all the energy that 

12 we need. This well-established claim might even 

13 be conservative since it does not include future 

14 improvements that will occur when American energy 

15 innovators realize renewable energy is already 

16 the only source of energy we can develop that 

17 will protect our health and environment as well 

18 as produce sustainable, healthy, and engaging 

19 jobs, while it powers the economy. 

20 Sustainable, healthy, and safe jobs that 

21 pay well are imperative to assure workers not 

22 only that they will have a paycheck, but that 
160 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 they will be healthy enough to use it. Such jobs 

2 must also move beyond dull and dangerous tasks 

3 better done by a machine. Jobs must be created 

4 that use experience-based initiative of workers 

5 and allow them to adapt these skills to novel 

6 conditions. Jobs of the future must be 

7 innovative. 

8 The fossil industry has reached the end 

9 of its innovative years. There's nothing 

10 innovative about going ever deeper into the Earth 

11 to drill or mine for ancient goo. It just 

12 repeats 19th century thinking. 

13 The fossil fuel industry cannot possibly 

14 provide the innovation we need for a healthy 

15 world because, one, in their very essence, they 

16 deal with materials that are deadly toxic and 

17 which are made all the worse when combined with 

18 radioactive waste, and two, fossil fuels are tied 

19 to the past where humans thought they could dig 

20 and drill with impunity. Tearing things from the 

21 bowel of the Earth and burning them on the 

22 surface generates an arrogant attitude we should 
161 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 avoid instead of the effective cooperation we 

2 need to cultivate. 

3 The Clean Power Plan, to its credit, 

4 recognizes much of what I've just mentioned. I 

5 hear, however, that it ignores the concern that 

6 may slow or stop many of its goals. I allude to 

7 job retaining. 

8 Fossil fuel workers feel threatened with 

9 a federal mandate they see is aimed at them. They 

10 are right to worry if the plan sacrifices their 

11 jobs in the name of reducing greenhouse gases. 

12 It is here that the plan needs to establish a 

13 single agency that will recognize the accumulated 

14 skills of these workers as advanced abilities 

15 that allow them to select well-paid jobs in the 

16 renewable sector. Once a new job has been 

17 selected, appropriate retraining must occur to 

18 allow fossil fuel workers to adapt to their new 

19 jobs. 

20 Gas workers can work on wind rigs, solar 

21 installations, and tidal turbines. Fossil 

22 engineers can find their skills being useful in 
162 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 energy efficiency. 

2 Fossil fuel jobs have already been 

3 disappearing in the present economy, so these 

4 workers should find the job opportunities in 

5 renewable energy timely and engaging. 

6 We all know that $1 million invested in 

7 oil and gas yields 0.8 jobs. The same million 

8 gets us 1.9 jobs in coal. Compare these dismal 

9 numbers with other job-producing fields. Wind 

10 gives us five jobs per million. Solar gives us 

11 six jobs. Biomass generates seven jobs. 

12 Remember $1 million in fossil fuels gives us an 

13 average of one job. 

14 If you want a job, then reject the dirt 

15 and danger of fossil fuels and look to the future 

16 of renewable energy and energy efficiency. 

17 But the Clean Coal Plan must create 

18 opportunities for these workers to transition to 

19 new jobs. Without a job plan in the Clean Coal 

20 Plan, the EPA may be seen as a federal agency 

21 imposing its will on the people. This may doom 

22 the plan because even if Congress passes it and 
163 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the 50 statehouses passes it, jobless workers may 

2 well oppose it. The Clean Power Plan may work, 

3 but it must retrain fossil workers to a level of 

4 pay and respect that they have earned. 

5 Thank you. 

6 [Applause.] 

7 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

8 Our next speakers will be Elowyn Corby 

9 and Maren Cooke. 

10 MS. CORBY: Good afternoon, and thank you 

11 for giving me the opportunity to address you 

12 today. My name is Elowyn Corby. That's 

13 E-l-o-w-y-n, C-o-r-b-y. And I would like to use 

14 my time today to talk briefly about the 

15 importance of the Clean Power Plan here in 

16 Pennsylvania and to urge EPA to develop a federal 

17 implementation plan that is itself a bold 

18 statement about what our country is capable of 

19 doing in order to tackle the largest 

20 environmental issue of our era. 

21 Climate change is already impacting our 

22 communities here at home as well as the world we 
164 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 live in and we'll leave to future generations. 

2 Hotter summer days are compromising air quality, 

3 leading to more asthma attacks and other health 

4 problems, and Pennsylvania is the eye of an 

5 intensifying storm. 

6 According to our research, nearly 9 out 

7 of 10 Pennsylvanians already live in areas that 

8 were listed as federal disaster zones between 

9 2007 and 2013 because of extreme weather, and we 

10 deserve better for our children and our 

11 communities. 

12 It's a relief that federal officials are 

13 taking historic action to address global warming. 

14 The Clean Power Plan is the single largest step 

15 our nation has ever taken to tackle climate 

16 change, and it represents an enormous opportunity 

17 to invest in the clean energy and energy 

18 conservation and efficiency steps that will 

19 ensure a better future for our communities and 

20 generations to come. 

21 And I'm proud that Pennsylvania's own 

22 Department of Environmental Protection has 
165 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 started the process of crafting our state plan 

2 through a public input process that was both 

3 inclusive and underscored the huge support within 

4 Pennsylvania for climate action. 

5 The good news is that even coming into 

6 this hearing, we know that the public is with us 

7 on the need to cut carbon. A recent survey of 

8 Pennsylvania voters conducted by the bipartisan 

9 Public Opinion Strategies found that 82 percent 

10 support, quote, Pennsylvania developing its own 

11 state plan to reduce carbon pollution and 

12 increase the use of clean energy and energy 

13 efficiency. 

14 The proposed federal implementation plan 

15 is a good backstop for states that are unwilling 

16 to protect public health from carbon pollution 

17 and the climate change impacts that come with it 

18 by meeting the reduction targets in the Clean 

19 Power Plan, and we need it to be stronger still. 

20 We need the federal implementation plan 

21 to be as strong as the overwhelming evidence that 

22 is telling us we must act now. We need it to 
166 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 unambiguously protect the health of our 

2 communities in the long term by focusing on the 

3 renewable energy sources and energy efficiency 

4 measures that will move us toward a cleaner 

5 future, and we need it to be a plan that, 

6 although hopefully never used, since any state 

7 should recognize the importance and added 

8 flexibility of developing its own plan, is fit to 

9 be our climate legacy. 

10 It's an honor for Pennsylvania to be 

11 selected to host this hearing, but it's also 

12 fitting. We live in a truly beautiful state full 

13 of lush forests, majestic rivers, and strong 

14 communities that want to continue enjoying our 

15 natural resources for generations to come. And 

16 we have the obligation and the ability to protect 

17 our state, our nation, and the globe from the 

18 worst impacts of global warming, and the Clean 

19 Power Plan gives us the opportunity to do just 

20 that, through investing in energy efficiency and 

21 clean energy. 

22 Let's make sure that we take full 
167 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 advantage of the Clean Power Plan and make our 

2 federal implementation plan sustainable, forward 

3 thinking, and something that our nation can be 

4 proud of for generations to come. 

5 Thank you again for holding these 

6 hearings and for allowing me to testify today. 

7 [Applause.] 

8 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you for 

9 being here today. 

10 MS. COOKE: Greetings. My name is Maren 

11 Cook, M-a-r-e-n, C-o-o-k-e, and I live here in 

12 Pittsburgh. 

13 I very much appreciate your coming back 

14 to Pittsburgh, which is both a nexus of the old 

15 fossil energy economy and a hub of industrial 

16 innovation and academic research. 

17 I'm a planetary scientist by training, 

18 and I've spent a great deal of time over the 

19 years communicating the science behind climate 

20 change, the impacts we face, and what must be 

21 done to mitigate climate disruption and to adapt 

22 to the changes already under way. How severe 
168 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 these problems will be 20, 50, 100, or 200 years 

2 into the future depends starkly on how quickly we 

3 can stop digging and pumping fossil carbon out of 

4 the ground and putting it into the air. 

5 I also work on air quality, as a board 

6 member of the Group Against Smog and Pollution 

7 and in concert with other organizations, so my 

8 comments here are my own. 

9 The co-benefits of ceasing fossil fuel 

10 use in air and water quality, human health, land 

11 preservation, and social equity are well 

12 understood. The health impacts of air and water 

13 pollution tend not to be felt in the posh areas 

14 where the rich energy company executives live. 

15 They are experienced every day in minority, 

16 low-income, and indigenous communities which 

17 don't have the resources to fight them. 

18 Likewise, the rich will be able to 

19 insulate themselves and their families from the 

20 effects of climate change for a long time to 

21 come. They can afford to buy higher priced food 

22 and clean water, to live in temperate climates, 
169 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 or to abandon that vacation home on the coast. 

2 The proposition that we should stand for 

3 health hazards now and in the future in the name 

4 of profit for the few and cheap energy for the 

5 many is ethically indefensible. 

6 It should come as no surprise that fossil 

7 companies form ExxonMobil to Peabody Energy have 

8 been following the playbook of Big Tobacco trying 

9 to suppress news of climate impacts for decades 

10 past. It is beyond ironic, however, that the 

11 scandals surfacing in the media have to do with 

12 misleading their shareholders about financial 

13 prospects rather than dooming people around the 

14 world to droughts, floods, famines, and the 

15 resultant wars over scarce resources, because 

16 that's exactly what they're doing. 

17 By financing climate change deniers to 

18 cloud the public perception of what's going on, 

19 they have delayed action for far too long. 

20 Scientists have understood the physics of global 

21 warming for almost two centuries. It's been in 

22 the news since 1988 when Jim Hansen testified 
170 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 before Congress. Now it's 2015, and while the 

2 Clean Power Plan is a good step, it is both too 

3 moderate and too long in coming. 

4 The amount of known reserves that the 

5 world can afford to extract while retaining a 

6 living planet is rapidly dwindling to nothing. 

7 We should be drilling no new wells, blowing up no 

8 new mountains, building no new fossil power 

9 plants, and we need to be pulling out all the 

10 stops on developing better battery technologies 

11 and more efficient solar panels so that renewable 

12 electricity can take the place of fossil fuels in 

13 most, if not all, applications. 

14 For things like long-distance aviation, 

15 the answer is probably biofuels, but they need to 

16 be sustainably produced using cellulosic ethanol 

17 from things like perennial switchgrass and 

18 coppice tree crops, not from energy-efficient and 

19 land-degrading corn. 

20 Conservation, both through energy 

21 efficiency and through changing our expectations, 

22 also needs to be a big part of the picture. 
171 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 There's a common perception that without 

2 fossil fuel extraction, the economy would suffer, 

3 and as we saw at the Clean Power Plan hearings 

4 last year, there are plenty of coal workers, 

5 their families and retirees from Pennsylvania, 

6 West Virginia, Kentucky, and other states who are 

7 up in arms at the prospect of job losses, but 

8 there are some other factors to consider. 

9 First, there aren't that many active jobs 

10 in coal production. I've spent time down in an 

11 operating longwall coal mine, and there was just 

12 a handful of people working the equipment. 

13 Second, coal is already losing out to 

14 natural gas, which especially while climate 

15 change, water and air pollution, and their 

16 attendant health costs are left out of the 

17 equation, is being produced more cheaply than 

18 coal. Both will lose out to clean renewable 

19 energy as we move forward, I hope, with the 

20 national Carbon Fee and Dividend Program, which 

21 would allow the free market to internalize the 

22 costs of dirty fossil energy and incentivize 
172 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 renewables, efficiency, and conservation, while 

2 providing a net financial benefit to the vast 

3 majority of citizens. 

4 And, third, as has been demonstrated by 

5 detailed analysis by an independent nonpartisan 

6 research organization called REMI, there are far 

7 more jobs to be had in renewable energy, 

8 well-paying, safer jobs, and I include the link 

9 to that report in my written comments. 

10 Something that occurred to me during last 

11 year's EPA hearings was that these disparate 

12 factors urgently need to be put together. The 

13 environmental and health costs, which are not 

14 being paid, and prices at the pump or on our 

15 monthly bills are being borne partly by people 

16 now and will be even greater for our children and 

17 future generations living in a radically 

18 different world. 

19 It's all well and good to observe that 

20 many more jobs would be created by transitioning 

21 to a renewable economy, renewable energy economy, 

22 and increasing energy efficiency, many such jobs, 
173 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 like installing solar panels or, while we're 

2 thinking about climate, building green 

3 infrastructure projects are inherently linked to 

4 the cities and suburbs where most people live, 

5 but many other jobs, like manufacturing solar 

6 panels, wind turbines, thermal installation, and 

7 other green building materials would both cut 

8 carbon emissions and would generate countless 

9 manufacturing jobs, many of which could be 

10 located in the coal communities and other towns 

11 where fossil-based industries are being phased 

12 out. 

13 There are pools of industrial workers -- 

14 they are the pools of industrial workers 

15 hollering for jobs, needing just a little 

16 retraining to work in industries that won't kill 

17 them prematurely. They are the Brownfields, so 

18 that we can stop ruining mountains, forests, and 

19 farmland while still building the new facilities 

20 needed for the new clean energy economy. 

21 We -- and in large part, that is the 

22 government -- just need to play our cards right, 
174 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 applying suitable tax incentives and such, so 

2 that green businesses emerge to replace a whole 

3 host of fossil-based ones. 

4 Will that come at a cost to the 

5 shareholders and management of these fossil-based 

6 companies? Yes. But those parties have already 

7 taken far too many profits at the expense of 

8 future generations. They made their choices, and 

9 it is ethically appropriate or, one might say, 

10 only karma for them to get out or lose out. 

11 We are at a critical juncture with 

12 respect to climate change. We simply cannot 

13 afford to keep on adding carbon to the 

14 atmosphere. The EPA has the power and the 

15 responsibility to do a great deal in mitigating 

16 the risk to our common future. 

17 So while I wholeheartedly support the 

18 CPP, I ask you to go even further to reduce our 

19 nation's carbon emissions. At this stage, 

20 figuring out the federal implementation plan, 

21 going farther will provide a strong role model 

22 for individual state plans. By its rigor, it 
175 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 will probably also motivate more states to come 

2 up with their own plans, and in the process, they 

3 will come face to face with the implications of 

4 climate change and their own contribution to it, 

5 and hopefully, they will step up to the plate as 

6 well. 

7 Thank you very much for your time, and I 

8 saw that red, so thanks for the extra time. 

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you both. 

10 [Applause.] 

11 MR. KOERBER: I'd like to call Patricia 

12 DeMarco and Nancy Robinson. 

13 When you're ready. 

14 MS. DeMARCO: My name is Patricia 

15 DeMarco. I reside at 616 Woodside Road in 

16 Pittsburgh, PA. I'm speaking in trust for my 

17 grandchildren and for the unborn children of the 

18 21st century whose fate will be set by the 

19 actions we take to control climate change. 

20 I will be filing more comprehensive 

21 documents in the record. 

22 I recognize the difficult political 
176 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 environment surrounding this effort to begin 

2 curtailing emissions for existing power plants. 

3 As a practical matter, the EPA is 

4 attempting to retain a minimum disruption of 

5 business as usual for the electric utility 

6 industry. 

7 The final rule states that fossil fuels 

8 will continue to be a critical component of 

9 America's energy future. This rule alone will 

10 not meet the urgent need we face to maintain 

11 viable climate conditions for the future. A more 

12 comprehensive climate policy is needed. 

13 The target for this effort is too low. 

14 If the plan is wildly successful, by 2030 power 

15 plants will continue to emit 1.2 billion metric 

16 tons per year of carbon dioxide into the 

17 atmosphere. 

18 The World Meteorological Organization 

19 reports that levels of carbon dioxide have hit a 

20 new record every year since 1984 and breached the 

21 400-part-per-million threshold in the northern 

22 hemisphere early in 2014 and globally in early 
177 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 2015. The goal of limiting atmospheric carbon 

2 dioxide to 350 parts per million appears no 

3 longer achievable. 

4 Second, there are several environmental 

5 and social justice issues left pending in this 

6 rule. Three of these are of particular concern. 

7 First, the Community Impact Assessment in 

8 the plan shows that the burden of pollution 

9 continues to fall disproportionately on 

10 disadvantaged people within 3 miles of the target 

11 power plants. Ramping down emissions from such 

12 plants is not a just solution. 

13 For example, in Pennsylvania, there are 

14 51 such plans affecting 1.8 million people. One 

15 single plant subjects 447,057 people, of whom 61 

16 percent are minorities and 49 percent are 

17 low-income people, to pollution levels above the 

18 recommended safe levels. The ethical and 

19 appropriate decision for the 139 plants of this 

20 kind around the country is to close them. 

21 The second social justice issue pertains 

22 to the workers in the fossil fuels industries. 
178 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 It is essential to protect the future of the 

2 80,000 coal miners and 147,000 oil and gas 

3 workers who face declining employment as part of 

4 a transition to a non-fossil future. 

5 Companies such as Peabody Coal have laid 

6 off workers and offloaded retirees with their 

7 pension and health benefit obligations to shell 

8 corporations like Patriot Coal, which soon 

9 declares bankruptcy, leaving the workers to an 

10 uncertain fate. This behavior may be legal 

11 within the laws of corporate finance, but it is 

12 wrong. 

13 Billions in annual federal subsidies for 

14 oil, gas, and coal exploration development and 

15 production could be used to address the social 

16 justice needs of displaced fossil fuel workers. 

17 The third environmental justice issue is 

18 the unattended remediation and restoration of the 

19 land. This is an intergenerational injustice 

20 because we are leaving our children a degraded 

21 and depleted planet. 

22 In Pennsylvania alone, over 3,000 miles 
179 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 of streams have been permanently degraded from 

2 acid-mine drainage. Watersheds and land in 39 

3 states are affected by Marcellus and Utica shale 

4 drilling and production activities, and 

5 mountaintops removed for coal extraction remain 

6 as scars on the land, looking more like 

7 moonscapes than forested rolling hills that once 

8 sheltered homes and towns. We must build a 

9 future that respects and restores the land. 

10 Finally, the federal Clean Power Plan 

11 loses an opportunity to challenge innovation. It 

12 displaces fossil fuels as slowly as possible 

13 rather than as rapidly as possible. There is no 

14 aspirational goal of eliminating fossil fuel 

15 combustion, even in this century. Subsidies to 

16 fossil fuel development and exploitation continue 

17 to grow while investment mechanisms for renewable 

18 fuels are variable, uncertain at the whim of 

19 congressional budget battles, and relatively 

20 limited by comparison. 

21 Using existing commercial technology, we 

22 could reach electricity carbon emissions of 750 
180 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 metric tons in the target frame mentioned in this 

2 rule. 

3 Americans have demonstrated time and time 

4 again the ability to rise to a challenge. This 

5 federal power plan offers no inspiration to reach 

6 for a new solution. It tinkers and tweaks the 

7 existing flawed and inefficient system retaining 

8 as much of the historic structure and equipment 

9 as possible. Our children deserve a better 

10 result. 

11 When President Kennedy challenges us to 

12 set foot on the Moon, it seemed an impossible 

13 goal, but the challenge inspired a generation, 

14 and the technology spun from that effort, yielded 

15 results that transformed the world. That is the 

16 level of effort that we need for this challenge. 

17 Thank you very much. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. 

20 Ms. Robinson? 

21 MS. ROBINSON: My name is Nancy 

22 Nowakowski Robinson. I live at 1238 Varner Road, 
181 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15227, which is 

2 Whitehall Borough. 

3 I was born in Pittsburgh in 1945 at St. 

4 Francis Hospital on 45th Street in Lawrenceville. 

5 I spent most of my life in Pittsburgh. I have 

6 asthma. 

7 I also have what is termed "environmental 

8 sensitivities." What that means is that my nasal 

9 passage, Eustachian tubes, ears, and throat are 

10 constantly irritated. This condition has a 

11 negative effect on my hearing. The only way to 

12 truly help this condition is to move away from 

13 the Pittsburgh area. 

14 I lived in the Mount Lebanon neighborhood 

15 for nearly 29 years. The air there was not 

16 great, but when I moved to my present location, 

17 approximately 6 miles east, the air quality was 

18 noticeably worse. Obviously, this was something 

19 that I was not expecting. What I did not realize 

20 was that I moved closer to the Monongahela Valley 

21 and the industry that exists near the river. 

22 Perhaps 10 to 15 nights out of the month, 
182 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I am awakened by a very, very strong odor that 

2 resembles burning tires or burning oil, acrid. 

3 Other times, there is strong sulphurous odor in 

4 the air. The first week I lived there, I called 

5 a neighbor asking what was wrong with the air. 

6 She said it was common, and people who live there 

7 no longer noticed it. I've been there 4 years. 

8 I still notice it. If I had a choice, I would 

9 leave. 

10 These industries are not involved in 

11 power plants, but they certainly add to the toxic 

12 mix that the Environmental Protection Agency is 

13 charged to regulate. 

14 I am 70 years old. As a Pittsburgher, 

15 the effects of bad air have become a part of my 

16 life story. I, however, do not anticipate a 

17 future that stretches over several decades. For 

18 young people and infants who have long lives 

19 ahead and for her grandchildren and mine, there 

20 is no question that the environment laden with 

21 various toxic and unnecessary chemicals will 

22 compromise their health. 
183 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I might add that both my mother and 

2 father died of cancer. Who knows if there is a 

3 connection? 

4 Taking a less personal view and a more 

5 important view, we know that climate change is 

6 upon us. Anyone who denies that is either 

7 misinformed or otherwise compromised. We need to 

8 work in every way possible to reduce and reverse 

9 the effect of greenhouse gases on the complex 

10 environmental systems of Earth. 

11 We all know too well the litany of 

12 deleterious effects we face. More energetic 

13 storms, flooding, drought, extreme temperatures, 

14 migration of plants, animals, peoples, and crop 

15 failure, we are already seeing these things 

16 happen. It is past time to get very serious 

17 about reducing the use of fossil fuels and 

18 reducing their effect on all living things. Our 

19 lives depend on it. 

20 Reducing emissions from coal-fired energy 

21 plants is an essential step, but just a step in 

22 addressing the cumulative hazards of access and 
184 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 burning fossil fuels. 

2 I hope that the Environmental Protection 

3 Agency presses hard in every way possible to 

4 clean our air, water, and the environment. 

5 Furthermore, we have no choice. This is an 

6 urgent task. 

7 Thank you very much. 

8 [Applause.] 

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. Thank 

10 you both for taking time to be with us today. I 

11 appreciate it. 

12 Next, I'd like to call Mindy Comangane 

13 and Robert Craven. 

14 MS. COMANGANE: Sorry. I get a little 

15 nervous sometimes, so if I get choked up, bear 

16 with me. 

17 MR. KOERBER: So far, so good. 

18 MS. COMANGANE: My name is Mindy Jo Rosso 

19 Comangane. I am the mother of four, a member of 

20 PUSH Buffalo, a guest today of NPA's, and I feel 

21 a representative of humanity. 

22 I am here today to show you what an 
185 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 example of somebody who has suffered exposure to 

2 dirty energy and the use of fossil fuels. It has 

3 stolen opportunities from me, stolen the health 

4 and even lives of loved ones. 

5 When I was 8 years old, I stood in my 

6 bedroom in the housing projects that lie just 

7 about a block away from one of the largest 

8 Superfund sites in New York State, Eighteen Mile 

9 Creek. I stood there looking a picture of the 

10 planet on my wall, and I had a vision that I 

11 would be in a room just like this speaking on the 

12 topic of planetary stewardship. 

13 Little did I know at that moment, I was 

14 becoming a survivor of the fallout of what I feel 

15 is a campaign to poison my people and the planet 

16 for profit. 

17 Now I have four kids of my own, and I 

18 can't deny the fact that my conscience keeps me 

19 up at night. Voices cry from the dust who are 

20 pleading that we in this present day take time 

21 and care in how we invest in our future. 

22 About a hundred years ago, men of wealth 
186 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and power recognized the hour and converged 

2 together to create an energy revolution, but they 

3 refused to use the planet and humanity in their 

4 plan of execution. Profit was the focus, and 

5 production was key. Living behinds were 

6 sacrificed to the gods of energy and technology. 

7 To this day, our communities haven't 

8 recovered, even though other options have been 

9 discovered and corporate corruption uncovered. 

10 We find ourselves here at the precipice of 

11 another energy revolution of our own at the dawn 

12 of a new age. Our people are disenfranchised and 

13 full of rage, as the vision of a new world is 

14 taking center stage. 

15 The sins of our fathers tap us on the 

16 shoulders, as we have the ability to remove big 

17 business boulders and invest in a better cleaner 

18 way. One hundred short years ago, the affected 

19 people were cut out of the decision, as we have 

20 bathed in dirty energy and -- we have breathed in 

21 dirty energy and bathed in nuclear fission. 

22 I ask you, 100 years from now, when our 
187 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 children's children's children speak of us in 

2 this present day, see in your mind's eye, 

3 envision what they'll say about the decisions we 

4 make in this room today. 

5 As a representative of humanity and a 

6 steward of this beautiful planet, I pray you will 

7 hear my words. Invest in people and the planet, 

8 and all of our descendants will have a chance at 

9 the quality of life every living being deserves. 

10 We have decisions to make. How will you 

11 be remembered? We must see beyond profit. We 

12 must create jobs that build hope and real 

13 longstanding vision. Let us forget about planned 

14 obsolescence. May our children harvest the seeds 

15 of renewability, equity, and accountability. Our 

16 legacy will leave the footprints of renewability 

17 and not carbon. 

18 If you don't want to deal with the 

19 outcomes of people in poverty, then it's time to 

20 stop making poor decisions. Give us the ability 

21 to choose locally how we will supply our energy 

22 without the looming face of big business in the 
188 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 background. They have already taken so much, and 

2 we continue to pay in so many ways. 

3 Invest in solutions and not Band-Aids, 

4 and remember we can make a decision, but we can't 

5 control the outcomes. There is no way to ensure 

6 that it won't be one of your loved ones who 

7 suffers along the way. If we don't ensure 

8 integrity in the foundation of this vision, no 

9 more classes among energy, no more poison for 

10 profit, no more protection for pay. It's time 

11 for us to be the ushers of a brighter day, and 

12 please keep this in mind. If you are a business 

13 that pollutes, you should be the one who pays. 

14 No more incentive for bad behavior. It just 

15 doesn't make sense. 

16 I submit these words humbly to you. 

17 Thank you for hearing me. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you for 

20 traveling here today. Appreciate it. 

21 Mr. Craven? 

22 MR. CRAVEN: Hello. Yeah, my name is Bob 
189 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Craven. That's C as in Chesapeake, r-a-v-e-n. 

2 Thank you very much for the opportunity to give 

3 feedback on the implementation of the CPP. I'm 

4 here as a concerned citizen, and I will preface 

5 my comments with an observation. 

6 Carbon pollution is a threat to public 

7 health on a global scale. The carbon from our 

8 power plants directly drives the greenhouse 

9 effect and by extension global climate change, 

10 which his already putting communities at risk and 

11 will eventually put all life at risk. 

12 The public is already paying for carbon 

13 pollution with their health and will only do more 

14 so as extreme weather and climate change continue 

15 to worsen. The problem is that air and the 

16 environment belong to everyone. We should not 

17 allow our energy practices to cause irreversible 

18 ecological harm in the atmosphere, as that will 

19 jeopardize all life. 

20 But to the problematically -- our nation 

21 as it operates today produces a vast quantity of 

22 carbon pollution. The U.S. emits more than 17 
190 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 metric tons a year per capita, so each of us, and 

2 global temperatures, of course, are rising at an 

3 unprecedented rate. 

4 The CPP addresses this complex challenge 

5 by leading us toward cleaner energy and away from 

6 fossil fuels, albeit gradually, and here I would 

7 call special attention to the EPA's Clean Energy 

8 Incentive Program, which encourages states to 

9 invest in renewable energies. This is a public 

10 good. 

11 So my comments to the EPA are based on 

12 the notion that climate sustainability is a 

13 benefit for all, and that we ought to see this as 

14 an opportunity to create lasting change on a 

15 really remarkable scale for so many future 

16 people. 

17 So my comment is that states should take 

18 advantage of the flexibility afforded by 

19 state-specific implementation plans. I certainly 

20 see Pennsylvania do that, but not all states my 

21 do this, and so it is crucial that the federal 

22 implementation plan parallels the gesture towards 
191 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 renewables that's made by the Clean Energy 

2 Incentive Program. 

3 Those states that end up adopting the FIP 

4 will reduce pollution, protect public and 

5 ecological health, and update their energy 

6 systems, but they also ought to be working with a 

7 plan that accelerates their movement away from 

8 the movement of fossil fuels and the release of 

9 this plant-matter carbon into the atmosphere and 

10 toward renewable energies and energy efficiency. 

11 I urge the EPA to continue to promote 

12 renewable energy as a way for the United States 

13 to become a more modern and, importantly, a more 

14 ethical world energy producer. I do applaud the 

15 EPA for this outreach to the public. 

16 My final point is that the public depends 

17 on a stable climate. Climate is the universal 

18 interest, and we need a federal implementation 

19 plan to prioritize the public good. 

20 Thank you very much. 

21 [Applause.] 

22 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 
192 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Next, I'd like to call Stephen Riccardi 

2 and Barb Grover. 

3 Is Ms. Grover here? 

4 [No audible response.] 

5 MR. KOERBER: Okay. Mr. Riccardi, you're 

6 still up for now. 

7 MR. RICCARDI: Fair enough. All right. 

8 So my name is Stephen Riccardi, 

9 R-i-c-c-a-r-d-I, and I'm speaking today as a 

10 concerned citizen of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 

11 As we all know, climate change is one of 

12 the most serious challenges facing our 

13 generation. A recent study from Penn State 

14 concluded, once again, that climate change is 

15 already taking place, and that the future impacts 

16 will be acutely felt here in the Pittsburgh 

17 region. Climate change means worse air quality, 

18 which will endanger at-risk populations like kids 

19 and seniors, more frequent and severe storms, 

20 more pests and diseases, like West Nile Virus and 

21 lung disease, and the list goes on. 

22 As the largest single step the United 
193 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 States has ever taken to reduce global warming 

2 and pollution, the Clean Power Plan is an 

3 enormous move in the right direction. It's 

4 critical that as the EPA develops this plan, we 

5 focus on ways to more easily advance to an even 

6 cleaner, more sustainable energy system. The 

7 simplest way to do this is through making our 

8 existing energy economy more efficient. 

9 Pittsburgh has been a pioneer in the 

10 develop of green buildings from our convention 

11 center to the Phipps Conservatory to the new PNC 

12 building, and a strong federal plan could help 

13 drive the development of more consciously 

14 energy-efficient construction across the country. 

15 On a mass-based scale, we can incentivize 

16 improvements to our homes and businesses that 

17 reduce their energy usage. 

18 Next, we need to make sure that this 

19 transition moves us off of fossil fuels and on to 

20 renewable energy sources like wind and solar. 

21 Eventually, we need to transition to a 

22 100 percent clean energy economy, and this plan 
194 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 represents the most immediate opportunity to date 

2 to take a bold step in that direction. So we 

3 need reliable incentives for further wind and 

4 solar development. Communities can follow the 

5 lead of Philadelphia, which has resolved to 

6 install 20,000 solar rooves by 2025, and thanks 

7 to advancing technology and the growing market, 

8 solar power is often in cost parity with 

9 carbon-intensive fuel sources like coal. 

10 To continue to grow this market, we 

11 should look towards common-sense financing 

12 options so that more and more Americans can go 

13 solar today because when it comes to fighting 

14 climate change, we can't afford to wait. We have 

15 the obligation and the ability to protect our 

16 nation from the worst effects of global warming, 

17 and the Clean Power Plan gives us the opportunity 

18 to do just that, through investing in energy 

19 efficiency and clean energy 

20 But perhaps one thing demands stating 

21 more than any of this, which is that states need 

22 to remember the plan we're commenting on today 
195 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 should only be a backstop. One of the greatest 

2 advantages of the Clean Power Plan is that it 

3 gives the states the flexibility to decide for 

4 themselves how they will modernize their energy 

5 economy and protect our climate and public 

6 health. 

7 Governors and other state leaders, 

8 especially here in Pennsylvania, need to rise 

9 above politics, consider the needs and resources 

10 of their states, and seize this opportunity for a 

11 clean energy future. 

12 So let's make sure we take full advantage 

13 of the Clean Power Plan and make our 

14 implementation sustainable, forward thinking, and 

15 something that Americans can be proud of for 

16 generations to come. 

17 Thank you all very much for the 

18 opportunity to speak here. 

19 [Applause.] 

20 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

21 Ms. Grover? 

22 MS. GROVER: I'm Barbara Grover. 
196 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Okay. Welcome. The stage 

2 is all yours, ma'am. 

3 MS. GROVER: Hi. Sorry. My name is 

4 Barbara Grover. I reside at 5526 Wilkins Avenue 

5 in Pittsburgh, 15217. As Chair of the Allegheny 

6 Group of the Sierra Club, I'm speaking this 

7 afternoon on behalf of over 5,000 members here in 

8 Southwestern Pennsylvania. 

9 We applaud President Obama and EPA for 

10 creating the Clean Power Plan. Reducing carbon 

11 dioxide emissions is critical to addressing 

12 climate change. Giving states the flexibility of 

13 creating their own state-specific pollution 

14 control plans is an excellent approach to protect 

15 our air, water, and the health of our citizens. 

16 However, giving states this opportunity means 

17 that the EPA standards must be especially strong 

18 so that if a state decides not to create its own 

19 plan, your standards must provide those 

20 protections to that stare's citizens. 

21 I'm going to address just two issues 

22 incorporated in the plan: one, the need to 
197 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 ensure that communities benefit from the 

2 implementation of the Clean Power Plan; and two, 

3 the immediacy of dealing with reduction of CO2

4 emissions. 

5 We applaud your inclusion of 

6 opportunities for communities, particularly 

7 low-income, minority, and tribal communities, to 

8 continue to participate in the decision-making 

9 process. You require states to demonstrate how 

10 they are actively engaging these communities. 

11 It's a good thing, but we are concerned, however, 

12 that such efforts often look good on paper, but 

13 in actual practice don't really involve community 

14 input. We encourage you to carefully monitor 

15 these efforts to hold states accountable. 

16 Another concern is how you will address 

17 this community involvement in states that do not 

18 provide plans. Your Clean Energy Incentive 

19 Program must be implemented as quickly as 

20 possible. Waiting till 2020 or 2021 is way too 

21 great a delay. Encouraging investment right now 

22 in sustainable renewable energy and in 
198 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 energy-efficiency program will have immediate 

2 economic benefits, especially in these vulnerable 

3 communities. 

4 My second point is the immediacy of 

5 action. Reducing carbon dioxide emissions to an 

6 absolute minimum, as quickly as possible, is 

7 critical. Otherwise, the Earth may not be 

8 habitable for human beings by the end of the 

9 century. 

10 It is astonishing to know that without 

11 taking serious, immediate action, we are creating 

12 our own demise, recently referred to as the 

13 "sixth extinction." As you may know, Elizabeth 

14 Colbert points out the previous five extinctions 

15 of a majority of this planet's inhabitants were 

16 not caused by human beings. The sixth extinction 

17 is. How can we not do everything possible to 

18 prevent this from occurring? 

19 Climate scientists indicate we have 

20 years, not decades, to stabilize CO2 to keep our 

21 planet inhabitable for humans. The average 

22 atmospheric CO2 for October 2015 was 398.29, 
199 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 considerably higher than the 350 parts per 

2 million scientists identified as the upper safety 

3 limit many years ago. We are currently 

4 witnessing the catastrophic impact of these toxic 

5 emissions. 

6 The ultimate goal is to transition to 

7 sustainable clean energy as quickly as possible. 

8 The Clean Power Plan goals are for a 30 percent 

9 reduction by 2030. That goal does not address 

10 the extreme crisis we are facing. 

11 In 2011, 4 years ago, Susan Joy Hassol, 

12 director of Climate Action, wrote, "In order to 

13 stabilize CO2 concentrations as about 450 parts 

14 per million by 2050, global emissions would have 

15 to decline by 60 percent below 1990 levels by 

16 2050. Industrial countries' greenhouse gas 

17 emissions would have to decline by 80 percent by 

18 2050." 

19 When asked what goals are needed for 

20 2030, she responded, "There's not a simple 

21 answer. What is essential is to begin 

22 immediately, as delay will be costly, both 
200 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 economically and in terms of achieving the 

2 climate stabilization goals. The 30 percent 

3 reduction by 2030 is simply inadequate." 

4 In conclusion, the Clean Power Plan is an 

5 historic step toward making this planet habitable 

6 for many future generations. We encourage you to 

7 establish strong goals and implement them 

8 expediently. Time is absolutely of the essence. 

9 Thank you. 

10 [Applause.] 

11 MR. KOERBER: Thank you very much. 

12 Let me take a brief moment here to thank 

13 all of the speakers for sharing your thoughts, 

14 your ideas, your feelings with us today. It's 

15 very much appreciate. And I'd also like to thank 

16 the audience for listening so quietly and 

17 politely. I appreciate it, and believe me, our 

18 speakers appreciate it as well, so thank you all. 

19 Next, I'd like to call Sharon Pillar and 

20 Jay [sic] Bergey. 

21 MS. PILLAR: Good afternoon. My name is 

22 Sharon Pillar, S-h-a-r-o-n. Pillar, P-i-l-l-a-r. 
201 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Thank you for holding these hearings today. 

2 My name is -- I already told my you my 

3 name. I am the elected president of the Solar 

4 Unified Network of Western Pennsylvania, or 

5 SUNWPA, as we say, our region's industry and 

6 advocacy group comprised of solar developers, 

7 installers, solar owners, non-profit 

8 organizations, and individuals interested in 

9 deploying more solar power. I'm also employed as 

10 the vice president of SmartPower, the nation's 

11 leading non-profit marketing firm dedicated to 

12 promoting clean renewable energy and energy 

13 efficiency to help Americans make smart energy 

14 choices. 

15 We at SUNWPA wholeheartedly support the 

16 EPA's Clean Power Plan to curb carbon emissions 

17 from existing electricity sources, particularly 

18 through the use of energy efficiency and 

19 renewable energy. 

20 For Western Pennsylvania, this change has 

21 significant and important ramifications and 

22 opportunities. The potential solar is only 
202 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 beginning to unfold here and across the nation. 

2 Just 10 years ago, we could not have fathomed 

3 that. Today we would have almost 25 gigawatts of 

4 solar in the United States. 

5 We should not underestimate what we would 

6 be able to do in another 10, 20, or 30 years, and 

7 in fact, the National Renewable Energy Labs 

8 conducted a technical feasibility study of solar 

9 potential and found that Pennsylvania has a 

10 technical capability to produce 631,703 gigawatt 

11 hours of electricity through solar PV every 

12 single year, which is almost four and a half 

13 times our current retail sales of electricity in 

14 our state. 

15 We have an enormous solar potential, not 

16 just here in Pennsylvania, but, of course, the 

17 whole nation, a source of clean carbon-free 

18 energy that is severely underutilized. 

19 We advocate that the EPA clarify the 

20 ambiguity of the role that distributed PV is 

21 given in the Clean Power Plan in meeting the 

22 carbon reduction goals and assure that 
203 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 distributed solar plays an integral and direct 

2 role in reducing carbon across the nation. 

3 The current draft of the CPP does not 

4 include distributed solar in the best system of 

5 emission reductions, the BSER, for building block 

6 3, but only utility scale, presumably because of 

7 the challenges stated as those associated with 

8 evaluation, measurement, and verification for 

9 production and possibly the unit cost. Not only 

10 should distributed PV be included, we argue that 

11 it should have a higher value than even 

12 utility-scale PV. 

13 Most state RPS programs have already 

14 figured out that the EM&V for distributed PV -- 

15 and this data is consistent and reliable to 

16 confirm generation. 

17 While utility-scale PV plays a crucial 

18 role in reducing carbon, distributed renewables 

19 have the definite advantage over utility-scale 

20 generation because the energy is used in close 

21 proximity to the generation, which minimizes the 

22 losses over transmission lines. Distributed PV 
204 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 allows about a quarter to a third more power to 

2 be utilized by the consumer, which displaces a 

3 greater percentage of carbon-intensive fuels 

4 generated at large-scale power plants. 

5 For example, a house in Western 

6 Pennsylvania would need about 30 rooftop panels 

7 produce all of its electricity needs, but if that 

8 solar energy were coming from a utility-scale PV 

9 plant, it would require about 38 to 40 panels to 

10 product that same energy at that home. 

11 Therefore, a watt of distributed PV would 

12 displace a quarter of a third more dirty fossil 

13 fuel energy than utility-scale PV project. So we 

14 encourage the EPA to appropriately value the role 

15 of distributed PV in reducing carbon. 

16 By its own acknowledgement, the 

17 importance of distributed generation, the EPA 

18 included the following statement in the CPP: 

19 "Based on preliminary analysis from DOE and NREL, 

20 cost-effective opportunities for distributed 

21 generation alone could satisfy one-third to over 

22 one-half of the stringency associated with 
205 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 building block 3." So we hope that the role of 

2 distributed solar is strengthened in the BSER. 

3 In addition, while the CPP does indicate 

4 the states may be able to use their renewable 

5 portfolio standards for some benefit, we also 

6 request that the EPA clarify this requirement so 

7 the states can only include solar energy produced 

8 within their state limits. 

9 In Pennsylvania, the alternative energy 

10 portfolio standards, or AEPS, contains a solar 

11 carve-out of a half a percent of energy to come 

12 from solar. However, any project within the PGM 

13 territory is eligible to receive solar renewable 

14 energy credits. This provision has allowed a 

15 large number of solar projects from other states 

16 to receive Pennsylvania credit and subsequently 

17 has dramatically weakened the solar market in our 

18 state. 

19 While solar energy generated in other 

20 states is still reducing carbon from 

21 carbon-intensive sources, it is not necessarily 

22 reducing Pennsylvania state emissions. 
206 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 In addition, this allowance in the AEPS 

2 has stunted the Pennsylvania solar industry and 

3 has further diminished our future capability to 

4 expand carbon-free energy resources. 

5 So building successful markets for 

6 carbon-free energy generation is key to our 

7 ability to reduce carbon pollution. Our AEPS 

8 does not do this, so we ask that the CPP not 

9 promulgate this unfortunate provision by 

10 continued support of it. Assuring that the CPP 

11 support healthy markets is also important to the 

12 ability to reduce carbon. 

13 Solar energy generation, particularly in 

14 carbon-intensive states, such as Pennsylvania, is 

15 also important in reducing other air pollutions 

16 in addition to carbon and has immediate benefits 

17 to the health of people in our region. A 

18 Carnegie Mellon University study showed that the 

19 societal benefits of replacing carbon-intensive 

20 fuels with wind and solar have far greater 

21 environmental and health benefits in Ohio, 

22 Pennsylvania, and West Virginia than anywhere 
207 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 else in the country because our air quality 

2 presents more health risks than anywhere else in 

3 the nation. 

4 Solar electricity in Pennsylvania 

5 provides $75 per megawatt hour in health and 

6 environmental benefits per year, 15 times more 

7 the same solar production as in Arizona, because 

8 it displaces our dirty air from fossil fuels. 

9 Transitioning to renewables is a good investment 

10 for Pennsylvania, for our economy, and most 

11 importantly for the health of our people and our 

12 planet. This provides yet another reason why 

13 strengthening our solar market is imperative. 

14 We applaud President Obama, his 

15 administration, and the EPA for your leadership 

16 in tackling climate change, and the solar 

17 industry in Western Pennsylvania looks forward to 

18 continuing to serve our country as part of a 

19 national climate force. We are armed with 

20 carbon-free technology that will secure the 

21 health of our nation and of our planet. 

22 So thank you very much. 
208 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 [Applause.] 

2 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. 

3 Ms. Joy Bergey. My apologies. 

4 MS. BERGEY: No problem. So It's Joy, 

5 J-o-y, Bergey, B-e-r-g-e-y. Welcome back to 

6 Pennsylvania, EPA. We love to have you here. 

7 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

8 MS. BERGEY: And I'm a lifelong 

9 Pennsylvanian. 

10 So thank you for the opportunity to come. 

11 I represent the Partnership for Policy Integrity, 

12 a non-profit that advocates for clean energy and 

13 provides science and legal advocacy to reduce 

14 reliance on polluting energy technologies that 

15 masquerade as clean. 

16 Let me also just set the context. We are 

17 fully support of the Clean Power Plan, and my 

18 comments are in the context of making it as 

19 strong as possible. We want a strong Clean Power 

20 Plan. 

21 So I am here to express strong opposition 

22 to biomass and waste burning being treated as 
209 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 compliance measures in the Clean Power Plan, 

2 either under a rate-based or mass-based plan. We 

3 are not alone in this sentiment. A number of 

4 groups have called on EPA to exclude bioenergy 

5 altogether from the Clean Power Plan, including 

6 some in this room, Sierra Club, Clean Air Task 

7 Force, Center for Biological Diversity, 

8 Greenpeace, Earth Justice, Friends of the Earth, 

9 and 350.org. We are including a letter from 

10 these groups as part of our testimony, which I 

11 won't read. 

12 EPA should provide leadership in the 

13 federal implementation plan on this issue because 

14 the treatment of bioenergy by the plan is 

15 somewhat murky. States will likely rely greatly 

16 on the FIP for guidance. 

17 It's indisputable science that biomass 

18 power plants emit more CO2 per megawatt hour than 

19 coal or gas plants. Co-firing biomass with coal 

20 increases CO2 emissions and decreases facility 

21 efficiency, making even the coal burn less 

22 efficiently. This is contrary to EPA's building 
210 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 block 1 for the Clean Power Plan, which is to 

2 increase coal plant efficiency. 

3 Thus, if EPA allows bioenergy as 

4 compliance under the FIP, the agency will be in 

5 the peculiar position of claiming that biomass 

6 reduces emissions when it actually increases 

7 them. 

8 With regard to co-firing at an EGU that's 

9 covered by the rule, we're not sure how this can 

10 be legal. The 111(d) rule is supposed to reduce 

11 emissions from the existing power source, but 

12 co-firing biomass will demonstrably increase the 

13 heat rate, decrease facility efficiency, and 

14 thus, increase tons of CO2 that are emitted per 

15 megawatt hour of electricity generated. We doubt 

16 that EPA would want to be in the position of 

17 defending that as a compliance measure. We hope 

18 not, anyway. 

19 EPA is requiring that to be qualified, 

20 the biomass must be, quote, demonstrated as a 

21 method to control increases in CO2 levels in the 

22 atmosphere, end quote, but the agency hasn't 
211 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 defined what that means. So do states get to 

2 decide on their own? That's a question for you 

3 to consider. 

4 In fact, because of the structure of the 

5 rule, we don't see much room for nuance in the 

6 treatment of bioenergy emissions. There is no 

7 place to count biogenic CO2 under either a 

8 rate-based or mass-based approach, except, as 

9 what is proper and legal, if it's coming out the 

10 stock of an electric-generating unit covered by 

11 the rule. Thus, although states may in theory 

12 have latitude in how they account for biogenic 

13 CO2, qualified biomass will likely be uniformly 

14 treated as having zero emissions. 

15 EPA needs only to look to the southeast 

16 part of the country to see evidence for what 

17 happens when you treat bioenergy as having zero 

18 emissions. The emerging disaster of the pellet 

19 industry, which is sending so-called 

20 "carbon-neutral fuel" to Europe and the UK, has 

21 been created and sustained by just the policy 

22 that EPA is proposing, treatment of stock 
212 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 emissions of biomass as zero and confining fuels 

2 to, quote, sustainably harvest wood and waste 

3 wood. Those are exactly the claims the pellet 

4 industry makes. 

5 For instance, Enviva, which pelletizes 

6 several million tons of trees a year, claims that 

7 the lands from which it harvests are certified by 

8 major organizations, like the Forest Stewardship 

9 Council. Meanwhile, thousands of acres of 

10 bottom-land hardwood forests are being clear cut 

11 so they can be sent up the stock of -- up the 

12 stock of power plants in Europe. 

13 Hence, here in the U.S., the wood pellet 

14 industry has been progressively -- aggressively 

15 promoting biomass as the easy compliance solution 

16 under the Clean Power Plan for utilities with, 

17 quote, aging coal plants. 

18 However, if the EPA approves a list of 

19 prequalified fuels, this is an invitation to 

20 fraud. Once waste is sanctioned as carbon 

21 neutral, every fuel will be classified as waste. 

22 It's unrealistic to think states will enforce 
213 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 standards and actually restrict the bioenergy 

2 industry to certain burning fuels, particularly 

3 when the industry has policymakers convinced that 

4 as long as net-forest growth is positive, carbon 

5 emissions from bioenergy don't harm the 

6 atmosphere. 

7 I see I'm red, so I'll finish up with one 

8 last paragraph, if I may. 

9 With regards to burning so-called waste 

10 fuels, what is the point of incentivizing 

11 something that's going to happen anyway? Where 

12 facilities are burning waste fuels for energy, 

13 they are usually doing it for waste reduction, 

14 which benefits them, and to generate on-site 

15 power, which also benefits them. Why do they 

16 need incentives if they are going to burn the 

17 material anyway? Providing such incentives 

18 simply serves to displace true zero emissions 

19 compliance measures. 

20 So I'll finish with that and leave you my 

21 written testimony. Thank you very much. 

22 [Applause.] 
214 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, ma'am. 

2 I'd like to call Chris Rogers and Katie 

3 Bartolotta. 

4 MR. ROGERS: Hello. Thank you so much. 

5 My name is Chris Rogers, last name R-o-g-e-r-s. 

6 Thank you so much for this unique opportunity to 

7 flesh out my role as an active and concerned 

8 citizen. I traveled from Philadelphia, 

9 Pennsylvania, bright and early this morning to be 

10 here, and I'm very happy to be here. 

11 I won't feed you numbers. You've done 

12 research, analyses, and calculations, and my 

13 fellow speakers who are providing such are more 

14 qualified, probably, so I'm going to refrain from 

15 bombarding you with that information, though I 

16 would like to concisely agree that the Clean 

17 Power Plan will help realign us with the rest of 

18 the world in slowing our approach to that 2 

19 degrees Celsius planetary increase, although this 

20 plan is just the first step, and we will need to 

21 curtail carbon emissions beyond the approximate 

22 33 percent reduction. 
215 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And I do agree that the CPP will 

2 ultimately cut energy costs in Pennsylvania, and 

3 it will catalyze countless new jobs and 

4 businesses in renewable energy and energy 

5 efficiency in our state going forward. 

6 But what I really want to provide is a 

7 personal perspective because ultimately that is 

8 the aim of all this policy. It's about the 

9 protection of life, my life, your lives, the 

10 lives of our children, every human and all 

11 creatures on this precious planet. 

12 So for me, it started with the 

13 replacement -- well, let me just backtrack. I do 

14 have roots here in Pittsburgh. My father was a 

15 minister, actually at East Liberty Presbyterian 

16 Church in the 1970s, and I mention that because 

17 his faith has inspired me to absorb the Christian 

18 message, the core messages of Earth stewardship 

19 and social justice, both of which are endangered 

20 and most profoundly by climate change the elite 

21 corporate engine that profits from it. 

22 So for me, it started with replacement of 
216 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 energy-efficient lightbulbs and then turning 

2 unused lights off in my early 20s. It then 

3 expanded to sourcing my goods and food as local 

4 as possible, and then it expanded to advocacy. 

5 For the last 2-1/2 years, I've served as the vice 

6 president of the Phoenixville Green Team. It's a 

7 volunteer 501(c)(3) in Phoenixville, 

8 Pennsylvania, right outside of Valley Forge, and 

9 like the very city we find ourselves in today, 

10 Phoenixville shaped its identity around the steel 

11 industry, which wholly dissolved and fell apart 

12 in the late 1980s and largely left the town lost 

13 and impoverished. 

14 But over the last decade or so, 

15 Phoenixville has become rejuvenated via its arts 

16 and its natural resources, developing a new 

17 legacy to carry forward. I'd like to think that 

18 in some small way, the efforts of the 

19 Phoenixville Green Team are adding to this new 

20 legacy, bolstering the consciousness that a 

21 healthy, tight-knit, and sustainable community is 

22 a desirable place to call home. 
217 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 The symbolism of the rebirth of 

2 Phoenixville is quite relevant to this story that 

3 the Clean Power Plan will start in Pennsylvania, 

4 a place once beholden to an industrialized, 

5 fossil, energy-intense economy and the pollutants 

6 it implies, is refocusing its identity to one of 

7 artisanry, localism, farming, art, nature, and I 

8 don't meant at all to disparage the hard work and 

9 vital contributions from the employees of the 

10 fossil fuel industry across this state 

11 Pennsylvania, but the arc of this archetypal 

12 story expresses the possibility of overcoming 

13 change that at one time might seem insurmountable 

14 or obliterative. 

15 We all know the story of America itself. 

16 It's about continuously confronting enormous 

17 obstacles and accomplishing profound change. Not 

18 only must we manifest this Clean Power Plan, we 

19 can do it, and we will be writing a proud new 

20 legacy for ourselves, for Pennsylvania and 

21 America, one that proclaims a confidence in our 

22 ability to overcome literally the most formidable 
218 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 of challenge that is climate change, and so I 

2 applaud the Obama administration and the EPA for 

3 mustering the courage and tenacity in this 

4 recalcitrant and combative political climate, 

5 where exorbitant wealth and special interests so 

6 often betray the wishes of average citizenry to 

7 embark on the development of this Clean Power 

8 Plan because there are millions of us out there 

9 who trust science, which undoubtedly shows that 

10 anthropogenic carbon emissions are the primary 

11 cause of climate change. 

12 And there are millions of us out there 

13 with open eyes who also trust their hearts, which 

14 compel us to seek action to mitigate this 

15 frightening trajectory of our current climate 

16 change crisis. 

17 Lastly, just on a technical note, I would 

18 like to request that the EPA embolden the federal 

19 implementation to fix it in carbon pricing 

20 markets as much as possible, and as much as 

21 possible under its jurisdiction, foment 

22 entrepreneurship and creativity in renewable 
219 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 energy and energy-efficiency businesses, 

2 especially wind and solar infrastructure, and 

3 inclusively aid workers in the fossil fuel 

4 industry in retaining and transition 

5 opportunities. 

6 Thank you so much for your time. I 

7 really appreciate it. 

8 [Applause.] 

9 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir, for being 

10 here today. 

11 Ms. Bartolotta? 

12 MS. BARTOLOTTA: Hi. My name is Katie 

13 Bartolotta, K-a-t-i-e, B-a-r-t-o-l-o-t-t-a, and I 

14 am giving testimony today on behalf of Dave 

15 Imgrund, D-a-v-e, I-m-g-r-u-n-d, who could not be 

16 here today, so I'll begin his letter now. 

17 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

18 out on the Clean Power Plan. I am a member of 

19 several sportsman organizations, Trout Unlimited, 

20 Pheasants Forever, and Overview Anglers Club, to 

21 name a few. As someone who has been hunting and 

22 fishing for nearly five decades, I wish to speak 
220 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 out in support of the Clean Power Plan. 

2 The continued burning of coal has created 

3 a situation that needs remedy and as quickly as 

4 possible. We are changing our world in ways that 

5 may be irreversible. I have already seen 

6 unwanted changes in the sports I love. More 

7 frequent severe weather events threaten the 

8 survival of fish species by radically altering 

9 the spawning environments they require to 

10 propagate, resulting in poor or no spawn. 

11 Rising water temperatures have also had 

12 an adverse effect on many species, including the 

13 brook trout, Pennsylvania state fish. The 

14 prospects for game birds and songbirds are also 

15 diminished by climate change. Climate change has 

16 altered the life cycles of insects, so that now 

17 bird species that evolve peak insect populations 

18 are no longer in phase, resulting in population 

19 declines. 

20 With the Clean Power Plan, states have 

21 been given a chance to tailor a reduction in 

22 carbon emissions to the unique situation each 
221 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 faces. Pennsylvania will have the opportunity to 

2 develop its own plan. The federal implementation 

3 plan is only intended as a backstop, ensuring 

4 that states unable or unwilling to develop a plan 

5 are complying with the goal of reducing carbon 

6 and other toxic emissions. 

7 Rather than in overreach, the federal 

8 implementation plan is merely ensuring that all 

9 states bear part of the load to meet these 

10 necessary reductions. 

11 The Clean Power Plan is a key piece in 

12 the process of reducing carbon emissions, a 

13 process that needs to move forward quickly if we 

14 seek to preserve the world in a viable state. 

15 The Clean Power Plan is a win for wildlife, a win 

16 for the environment, and a win for anyone who 

17 wishes to lease the best possible world to future 

18 generations. 

19 I thank you for listening to my concerns 

20 today. I hope that you continue to work toward a 

21 better future. Thanks. 

22 [Applause.] 
222 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you both 

2 for being here. 

3 Next, I'd like to call Jacob 

4 Swenson-Lengyel and Ben Ishibashi. 

5 Sorry for any mispronunciations. 

6 MR. SWENSON-LENGYEL: I promise I'm not 

7 trying to make it difficult for you. Thank you 

8 for having us here today. My name is David 

9 Swenson-Lengyel. That's S-w-e-n-s-o-n, hyphen, 

10 L-e-n-g-y-e-. 

11 I've traveled here from Chicago to 

12 testify in support of the Clean Power Plan and 

13 calling you to strengthen the federal 

14 implementation plan and the model plan. I'm 

15 speaking today on behalf of National People's 

16 Action. We're a multiracial network of 29 

17 grassroots organizations in 18 states working to 

18 protect a planet imperil, create a new economy, 

19 and realize true democracy. We have more than 

20 100,000 members around the country, a number of 

21 whom you've heard from today. 

22 And as my colleague, Jordan, said 
223 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 earlier, we would have wished to have you hear 

2 from more of our members, many of whom have been 

3 directly affected by the dirty energy economy, 

4 but the limited notice of these hearings and 

5 their locations have limited the opportunities 

6 for them to weigh in on these plans. 

7 At National People's Action, we believe 

8 that the energy market is already shifting away 

9 from coal and other fossil fuels, as the cost of 

10 renewables like wind and solar drops, but 

11 importantly, the Clean Power Plan gives 

12 government the opportunity to do more to speed 

13 the transition from dirty energy towards a clean 

14 sustainable future. 

15 Indeed, no less than the fate of our plan 

16 rests upon speeding up this transition. Like 

17 others here, we believe that more can and should 

18 be done to limit carbon emissions and protect our 

19 planet, and we urge the EPA to reject false 

20 solutions such as natural gas, nuclear, and 

21 biomass that simply trade one dirty energy source 

22 for another. 
224 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 But just as importantly, this plan gives 

2 federal and state governments a chance to make 

3 the emerging clean energy economy not only more 

4 sustainable, but more equitable. This is vital, 

5 as a shifting energy market may well preserve 

6 existing inequalities rather than alleviate them 

7 without government action. 

8 In particular today, I'd like to speak 

9 about the Clean Energy Incentive Program and call 

10 for it to be strengthened, expanded, and made 

11 mandatory. 

12 The Clean Energy Incentive Program is a 

13 crucial part of the Clean Power Plan. By 

14 encouraging early investment in renewable energy 

15 and energy efficiency in low-income communities, 

16 it helps turn the tide toward equity in the 

17 environment and in the economy, and the Clean 

18 Energy Incentive Program is a positive step 

19 towards making sure that the carbon market set up 

20 by the Clean Power Plan doesn't mirror the 

21 mistakes of the past. 

22 Low-income communities bear the burden of 
225 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the dirty energy economy we have now. Power 

2 plants and dirty factories are disproportionately 

3 located in such communities. After decades of 

4 underinvestment and pollution, low-income 

5 communities desperately need investment to begin 

6 to recover. 

7 We applaud the Clean Energy Incentive 

8 Program and the EPA's Double Match Program, and 

9 we urge you to expand the program and the 

10 set-asides for renewable energy that serve 

11 low-income communities. Early investments in 

12 renewable energy and energy efficiency for our 

13 community should be maximized. 

14 To truly see the Clean Power Plan live up 

15 to its potential, participation in the Clean 

16 Energy Incentive Program should be made mandatory 

17 for all states, and the program should be 

18 significantly expanded. Without participation in 

19 the program in every state, low-income 

20 communities and communities of color will 

21 continue to bear the unfair burden of toxic air 

22 and criminal underinvestment. 
226 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 We've got to put people in the planet 

2 over profits, and that means universal 

3 participation in this essential program. 

4 The renewable energy and efficiency 

5 programs in low-income communities have the power 

6 to transform. You've heard from a number of 

7 people from our affiliate, PUSH Buffalo, and it's 

8 amazing to see what they've done on the West Side 

9 of Buffalo. 

10 But this kind of project takes a lot of 

11 time to get off the ground, and we hope there's a 

12 time window for projects to qualify for the CEIP 

13 and receive allowances, will be expanded to help 

14 more communities and community groups like PUSH 

15 Buffalo to take advantage of this fantastic 

16 program. 

17 And once the compliance period begins, 

18 the investment in renewable energy should ramp up 

19 and not taper off. The set-aside for renewable 

20 energy should be dramatically increased. The 

21 pool for renewable energy and -- for energy 

22 efficiency and renewable energy shouldn't just be 
227 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 5 percent. It should be 50 percent, and 

2 renewable projects in low-income communities 

3 should have their own dedicated allowances. 

4 Thank you for listening to my testimony. 

5 [Applause.] 

6 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

7 MR. ISHIBASHI: My name is Ben Ishibashi, 

8 spelled I-s-h-o-b-a-s-h-i. I am here with 

9 National People's Action as well, and I'm here 

10 again to support the Clean Power Plan. 

11 It represents a historic first step 

12 towards reducing carbon emissions here in the 

13 United States, and for that reason, we support 

14 it. 

15 That being said, it does not go nearly 

16 enough in terms of either reducing emissions or, 

17 more importantly, in protecting communities of 

18 color and low-income communities from the effects 

19 of air pollution and climate change. 

20 As you've already heard from numerous 

21 speakers today, people of color and low-income 

22 people in this country and around the words are 
228 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 hit first and worst by climate change and by air 

2 pollution. At the same time, structural 

3 discrimination ensures that they also have the 

4 hardest time bouncing back from these disasters. 

5 For any Clean Power Plan that seeks to 

6 change -- the Clean Power Plan can only be judged 

7 to be a success if it helps end this inequity and 

8 end a dirty and corporate-controlled energy 

9 system. To that end, we need a federal 

10 implementation plan and model rule that includes 

11 robust renewable and energy-efficiency 

12 set-asides, including in the Clean Energy 

13 Incentive Program, and that also ensures that 

14 these set-asides focus on creating good-paying, 

15 lasting green jobs in communities of color and 

16 low-income communities and also contains a focus 

17 on creating lasting community wealth that stays 

18 in communities instead of being extracted out by 

19 big corporations. 

20 Above all, we need a Clean Power Plan, 

21 both federal, state -- both at federal and state 

22 level that focuses on protecting communities of 
229 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 color from disproportionate impacts, and then 

2 finally, the best way that we can ensure that 

3 people achieve this at all levels is by expanding 

4 public comment and community engagement 

5 processes. 

6 Thank you. 

7 [Applause.] 

8 MR. KOERBER: Thank you both. 

9 We are going to take two more speakers 

10 and then a short break. So I will next call 

11 Jacob Ward and Paul Saliterman. 

12 Mr. Ward or Mr. Saliterman? 

13 MR. WARD: Mr. Ward. 

14 MR. KOERBER: Mr. Ward. Is Mr. 

15 Saliterman in the room? 

16 [No audible response.] 

17 MR. KOERBER: Okay. We may be breaking a 

18 little sooner than I expected. The floor is 

19 yours. 

20 MR. WARD: How are you all doing today? 

21 Hello. Thank you for coming to Pittsburgh to 

22 hear our perspective on this issue. My name is 
230 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Jake Ward, and I'm here speaking in strong 

2 support of an adamantly implemented and enforced 

3 Clean Power Plan. 

4 I currently work in the clean energy 

5 industry, but I didn't used to. Upon graduating 

6 with a master's in geo-environmental studies from 

7 Shippensburg University in 2011, I subsequently 

8 worked for First Energy for 2-1/2 years in their 

9 mapping and engineering sector. 

10 Although the job paid very well, I found 

11 the CEO and company as a whole to be very out of 

12 touch with the urgency of climate change. During 

13 my time there, there were several instances of 

14 lobbying efforts by First Energy to block 

15 legislation that would require them to limit 

16 their carbon pollution. These actions are a 

17 symptom of the overall epidemic that has been 

18 taking hold in America for decades. That 

19 epidemic is profits over people, and I chose to 

20 discontinue my participation. 

21 I now work as a salesman for Green 

22 Mountain Energy, a pollution-free electricity 
231 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 supplier in this state's deregulated electricity 

2 market. I also work with a Pittsburgh-based 

3 company called Zero Fossil as a part-time 

4 contractor. They provide clean energy solutions 

5 for off-grid residential use, events, food 

6 trucks, and various other small-scale energy 

7 needs. I'm also assisting a friend's startup 

8 business that will provide environmentally 

9 friendly home-building and renovation products to 

10 residential customers. 

11 I took a big pay cut to start working 

12 clean energy and the green movement, but I don't 

13 mind because I know how important it is, and I 

14 want to be a part of the solution and not the 

15 problem. 

16 The Clean Power Plan is a huge step in 

17 the right direction for the people on this 

18 planet, particularly low-income minority and 

19 indigenous communities most affected by climate 

20 change, as you've heard many times today. It is 

21 very important that the United States be a leader 

22 on this issue. We have been making the vast 
232 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 majority of our electricity the same way for 200 

2 years. 

3 Now the vast majority of experts on the 

4 subject of climate change are telling us that 

5 continuing to burn fossil fuels at the current 

6 rate will lead to a less-livable planet. We will 

7 see more drought, more famine, more displacement, 

8 more war. 

9 We are already seeing stronger climatic 

10 phenomena around the world today. We need the 

11 vast majority of our energy to come from 

12 sustainable sources, and we need to make it 

13 happen now. 

14 I urge you to be strict in the 

15 implementation of the Clean Power Plan, create 

16 strong incentives for states to come up with 

17 strategies that make the most sense for them, and 

18 if they fail or refuse, be adamant about setting 

19 up a federal plan for them and enforce it. 

20 Future generations are depending on you to make 

21 these tough choices and fight for them. This 

22 fight is about people, not profits, but with that 
233 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 said, the Clean Power Plan is projected to 

2 generate $93 billion annually in benefits by 

3 2030. Sounds like two birds with one stone to 

4 me. 

5 I also urge you to set up a program to 

6 protect the employment of long-time fossil fuel 

7 workers in the transition to clean energy as 

8 well. Find a way to give them opportunities in 

9 clean energy. This transition will be much 

10 smoother, and there will likely be less denial 

11 about the issue of climate change if they are 

12 confident their employment is not threatened. 

13 In my experience as a salesperson with 

14 Green Mountain Energy over the past year, I have 

15 spoken with hundreds of people and have been in a 

16 unique position to gage regional sentiment on 

17 this issue. I can tell you there's a ton of 

18 support for clean energy in the region, even many 

19 who are willing to pay more for it, but as you 

20 know, Pittsburgh has significant roots in fossil 

21 fuel, and there are many pro status quo naysayers 

22 as a result. 
234 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 But I have to tell you, that friend's 

2 startup business I'm helping with, one of the 

3 owners used to work as a boilermaker for 20 

4 years. He worked incredibly long hours in 

5 extreme cases, in some cases life threatening, 

6 and worked in a culture where drug addiction was 

7 not uncommon based on stories he shared with me. 

8 He is now a firm believer in upgrading our 

9 economy to one that is clean energy based. The 

10 culture of clean energy is a positive one, and 

11 the future is bright. And the pun is intended on 

12 that. 

13 We can reach the tipping point into a 

14 sustainable economy, and this plan is crucial and 

15 essential in achieving it. 

16 Thank you for all you're doing and 

17 listening to us here in Pittsburgh. Thank you. 

18 [Applause.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

20 Do we have any other registered speakers 

21 in the room? 

22 [No audible response.] 
235 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Okay. If not, I have 2:48. 

2 We will be on break until 3 p.m. We will resume 

3 at that time. Thank you. 

4 [Recess taken from 2:48 to 3 p.m.] 

5 MR. KOERBER: It is three o'clock, but I 

6 am going to wait a few more minutes before we get 

7 started until I get another card with speakers. 

8 So we will break until we get more registered 

9 speakers, so hang loose. 

10 [Recess taken 3:01 to 3:30 p.m.] 

11 MR. KOERBER: I have 3:30. Why don't we 

12 go back into session. We have a couple people in 

13 the room who are waiting to testify. We will 

14 take their testimony, and then if there is nobody 

15 else, we will go back on break again, but we'll 

16 do the two. 

17 I will call Areli Lopez, and, sir, I'm 

18 sorry. I don't have a card for you, so -- you 

19 can come up now, if you want. Ms. Lopez? 

20 MS. LOPEZ: Yep. Sorry. Thanks. 

21 I want to thank the EPA for this 

22 opportunity. My name is Areli, A-r-e-l-I, Lopez, 
236 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 L-o-p-e-z, and I'm here with National People's 

2 Action. 

3 I'm here in support of the Clean Power 

4 Plan put forth by the EPA, and I'm also here to 

5 urge the EPA to create a federal implementation 

6 plan that prioritizes low-income and communities 

7 of color who not only live in the city, but in 

8 the suburbs and rural areas as well. 

9 My community, Waukegan, Illinois, which 

10 is in Lake County, is predominantly Latino and 

11 houses one of the oldest coal power plants in the 

12 country, which makes Lake County not meet the 

13 national standard for permissible levels that are 

14 deemed safe. It is the largest emitter of sulfur 

15 dioxide and major contributor to particulate 

16 matter in mercury in Lake County, according to 

17 the Illinois EPA. 

18 When mercury from coal plants fall into 

19 waterways, it accumulates in plants, organisms, 

20 and fish. The neurotoxin can cause serious 

21 developmental impairment in fetuses and children, 

22 and at higher concentrations, it can damage the 
237 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 nervous system and organs of adults. 

2 The popularity of fishing near the 

3 Waukegan Coal Plant puts Lake County residents in 

4 direct risk of ingesting mercury. The 

5 Environmental Law and Policy conducted a study 

6 finding that the premature deaths and associated 

7 health impacts of pollution from the Lake County 

8 coal plant in Waukegan totaled $86 million 

9 annually in health costs in 2010. 

10 The Clean Air Task Force also found that 

11 pollution from the power plant contributed to 570 

12 asthma attacks, 34 premature deaths, 54 heart 

13 attacks, 21 incidences of chronic bronchitis, and 

14 35 asthma ER visits. For all these reasons, we 

15 need a strong federal implementation plan that 

16 reduces pollution and creates green jobs for 

17 low-income and communities of color, which also 

18 prioritizes affordable, accessible wind and solar 

19 energy over nuclear and natural gas for all of 

20 our communities. 

21 Thank you. 

22 [Applause.] 
238 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Nicely done. 

2 Thank you. 

3 Sir? 

4 MR. MAKOWKA: Thank you for the 

5 opportunity to comment. My name is Claus 

6 Makowka. That's C-l-a-u-s. Makowka is 

7 M-a-k-o-w-k-a. And I'd be happy to provide a 

8 written copy of my statement. 

9 While I am a member of Penn Environment, 

10 the Sierra Club, and the Citizens Climate Lobby, 

11 I am speaking for myself as a concerned citizen. 

12 I am aware of the serious consequences of 

13 climate change, both current and projected, due 

14 to CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. 

15 As a result, I recently purchased a fully 

16 electric vehicle for my use as a personal car, 

17 and I'm now doubly motivated to see reduction of 

18 CO2 emissions from electricity generation, both 

19 for home use and for powering my car. 

20 Therefore, I strongly support the CPP as 

21 an initial step to achieve such reductions. I 

22 also recognize that the EPA is constrained to 
239 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 work within existing statutory authority in 

2 developing the CPP. I understand the use of the 

3 BSER categories as a way to provide objective 

4 measurable criteria for emission reduction. 

5 I support imposing a gradually rising fee 

6 on carbon emissions with all revenue collected to 

7 be returned to citizens equally, sometimes known 

8 as the "carbon fee and dividend." I recognize 

9 that the EPA lacks the statutory authority to 

10 implement a national carbon fee and dividend. My 

11 understanding was that previous drafts of the CPP 

12 permitted states to use carbon fee and dividend 

13 at the state level, as states could enact the 

14 necessary laws. 

15 In reading the final rules, this option 

16 is no longer explicitly mentioned. If it remains 

17 an option, then additional guidance appears 

18 necessary on acceptable ways to bridge this 

19 approach to the required reductions. Otherwise, 

20 a clear statement explaining why the option was 

21 removed would be helpful. 

22 One of my specific concerns is the impact 
240 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 on lower income families and communities. These 

2 communities already are affected 

3 disproportionately by air pollution and are most 

4 vulnerable to climate change, including extreme 

5 weather and especially storm damage due to poor 

6 construction and location. 

7 Most approaches to satisfying the CPP 

8 will also raise energy prices, particularly 

9 during the transition to more efficient 

10 technologies. The cost benefits of these 

11 improved technologies typically reach poorer 

12 communities last. 

13 The carbon fee and dividend helps to 

14 mitigate the effect on lower income families and 

15 communities by rebating the energy cost related 

16 to carbon emissions. This is effective because 

17 poorer families and communities are likely to 

18 receive a proportional -- a larger proportional 

19 dividend due to the lower energy use when 

20 compared to affluent families and communities. 

21 This is both from direct energy use for smaller 

22 homes, for example, and from indirect energy use 
241 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 due to buying less products. Products cost 

2 energy to produce and ship, and so their price 

3 includes a significant indirect energy cost. 

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. 

6 [Applause.] 

7 MR. KOERBER: You can give a copy to the 

8 court reporter. That would be great. Thank you. 

9 Appreciate you being here, sir. 

10 I'd like to call Eva Resnick-Day. 

11 MS. RESNICK-DAY: Hello. 

12 MR. KOERBER: Hello. Good afternoon. 

13 MS. RESNICK-DAY: Good afternoon. I'm 

14 Eva. I'm here as a Concerned Citizen. So I have 

15 grown up in Pittsburgh my entire life, and I have 

16 watched this city transform from one that was 

17 identified as a coal town based off of a fossil 

18 fuel economy to one that is embracing and leading 

19 the way in new sustainable solutions in a diverse 

20 and creative economy. 

21 But the legacy of the coal industry left 

22 its mark on our city. You can see the soot lines 
242 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 on our old buildings and homes to this day, black 

2 and ominous. Pittsburgh still tops the list of 

3 cities most polluted by short-term exposure to 

4 particles and has some of the worst air quality 

5 in the country. We're still at risk from a 

6 legacy left to us, and our generation is at high 

7 risk of extreme weather events, crop failure, and 

8 potential conditions to which humans will not be 

9 able to adapt. 

10 We need to leave a better legacy, and 

11 that starts today, and the Clean Power Plan is a 

12 really historic step forward. As you guys know, 

13 it will prevent 100,000 asthma attacks, 6,000 

14 premature deaths annually. It's cutting carbon 

15 from the dirtiest coal-fired power plants and 

16 investing in clean energy and creating jobs. 

17 But I think the most important thing is 

18 that it's signaling to the world that the United 

19 States is taking climate change seriously as we 

20 lead into talks in Paris. We realize our 

21 disproportionate contribution to climate change 

22 and are willing to take serious action. 
243 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 This is really great, but with global 

2 livelihood on the line, the UN saying that 

3 400,000 people are dying each year from climate 

4 change already, with those numbers only rising, 

5 we have to push past what we think is possible 

6 and look towards what we know is necessary. 

7 So I implore you to make the carbon 

8 reductions even stronger in the federal plan and 

9 mostly ensure that the model federal plan 

10 protects and benefits minority, low-income, and 

11 indigenous communities that have long borne the 

12 brunt of fossil fuel pollution and are feeling 

13 the impacts disproportionately today. We have to 

14 resist giveaways of allowance to polluted 

15 sources, and really we have to be shifting the 

16 way that we live, and that starts now. 

17 And my little personal story I wanted to 

18 share, so I just got back from hiking the entire 

19 Appalachian Trail from Georgia all the way to 

20 Maine. 

21 [Applause.] 

22 MS. RESNICK-DAY: Thanks. That's not 
244 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 what it's about. But there's something -- 

2 MR. KOERBER: Wow! Wow! I'm impressed. 

3 MS. RESNICK-DAY: Thanks. I appreciate 

4 it. 

5 But there's an interesting thing on the 

6 trail called the "Virginia blues" that everyone 

7 will talk about when you're on the trail. And 

8 it's really interesting because once you get to 

9 Virginia, you've already hiked over 500 miles and 

10 been on the trail for months, but Virginia is 

11 where 75 percent of people quit and get off. And 

12 everyone is like, "I'm not going to feel those 

13 blues. Why is that happening?" 

14 And what happens is when you get to 

15 Virginia, you end up walking along highways. You 

16 end up walking past power plants and factories, 

17 and the air immediately changed. And we're 

18 living in the environment, so all day, you are 

19 walking through this, like, really terrible 

20 pungent smell, and you start moving slower. You 

21 start breathing differently. You start snapping 

22 at each other more than you were before. 
245 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 And it was crazy for me how much that 

2 impacted everyone's day-to-day life, that 75 

3 percent of people that start the trail quit in 

4 Virginia. And when I felt that day to day and 

5 realized what that did to people's lives, I was 

6 thinking, "I've only had to put up with this for 

7 a few days on the trail, and then I'll be in 

8 these gorgeous mountains with great air." And I 

9 had the privilege of living like that for the 

10 rest of my life, but there are people that live 

11 by these factories all the time, every day. 

12 That's their environment, and that affects you 

13 day to day in a really intense way, and I think 

14 that feeling and those people are the ones that 

15 we have to keep in mind when we're making these 

16 really strong plans. 

17 So thank you so much for everything you 

18 do. 

19 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

20 [Applause.] 

21 MR. KOERBER: Do we have any other 

22 registered speakers on the room? 
246 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 [No audible response.] 

2 MR. KOERBER: If not, we will go on 

3 another short break. Thank you for your 

4 patients. 

5 [Recess taken from 3:11 to 3:43 p.m.] 

6 MR. KOERBER: One more registered 

7 speaker, Mimi Darragh. And if you want to come 

8 up to the table in the front of the room. If you 

9 could state and spell your name for the record, 

10 that would be great. And then whenever you're 

11 comfortable, feel free to begin. 

12 MS. DARRAGH: My name is Mimi Darragh, 

13 M-i-m-i, D-a-r-r-a-g-h. I want to thank you for 

14 this opportunity to comment on the Clean Power 

15 Plan. 

16 I work as a parish social minister as St. 

17 Sylvester Church, Catholic Church in Brentwood, 

18 which is in the South Hills of Pittsburgh, and at 

19 our parish, we were very excited about Pope 

20 Francis' encyclical Laudato Si, which is on care 

21 for our common home, which came out this past 

22 summer. And we have been studying the document 
247 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 at the parish and talking about ways that as 

2 individuals, we can change our own behavior to 

3 live out what Pope Francis talks about and what 

4 our faith requires of us. 

5 But, as we have learned in studying the 

6 encyclical, individual change is not enough, as 

7 powerful as that may be, but there needs to be an 

8 institutional response and one from the community 

9 as a whole; in this case, the state of 

10 Pennsylvania and the whole U.S. We cannot just 

11 recycle our way to a better environment or just 

12 drive less to have better air quality. 

13 Here in Pittsburgh, even though we have 

14 cleaned up our air from the days of the steel 

15 mills, our area and all of the Allegheny County 

16 still has some of the worst air quality in the 

17 country. Asthma is afflicting more and more 

18 people, and the numbers of those suffering from 

19 both airborne allergies and those for mold are 

20 also on the rise, and climate change will only 

21 make these worse. 

22 Of the 132 children in our parish school, 
248 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 16 have asthma so severe that they have to have 

2 inhalers and medicine nearby. 

3 The Clean Power Plan will enable our 

4 state to require power companies to operate their 

5 plans more cleanly and effectively, giving us 

6 better air quality, but also to encourage them to 

7 be forward thinking, to develop renewable sources 

8 of energy that are reliable and affordable, so 

9 that the environment will be cleaner and 

10 healthier for us, for our children and 

11 grandchildren. 

12 This Clean Power Plan gives the state 

13 flexibility in devising how it will implement it, 

14 and it's phased in gradually, again, making it 

15 possible for business to plan and diversify. But 

16 I'm also glad that the plan has a backup so that 

17 if the state of Pennsylvania cannot come up with 

18 its own plan, that the federal government has a 

19 plan for that. 

20 I remember driving through Pittsburgh as 

21 a child and seeing the fires and smoke from the 

22 steel mills and smelling the sulfur, rotten egg 
249 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 smell, and when I asked about what that was, I 

2 was told that it was the smell of jobs. 

3 I don't think we have to accept that 

4 today. We no longer have to make a choice 

5 between clean air and jobs. With changes in the 

6 technology for power plants and also the 

7 development of green jobs, solar, wind, 

8 geothermal, we can clean up the air and create 

9 good-paying jobs at the same time, but we need to 

10 want to do that. Pennsylvania can be, and should 

11 be, a leader on this. 

12 In coming back to Pope Francis' 

13 encyclical, he calls this Earth "our common 

14 home," and we see through is eyes and through the 

15 eyes of faith that we are all connected. 

16 Everything in the world is connected, so that 

17 what we do individually as citizens of 

18 Pennsylvania and the United States affect our 

19 brothers and sisters in this country and around 

20 the world. 

21 Getting climate change under control is 

22 still possible with actions like the Clean Power 
250 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Plan. 

2 Thank you. 

3 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. 

4 [Applause.] 

5 MR. KOERBER: Thank you for being here, 

6 and thank you for the work that you do. 

7 I'll ask if there are any other 

8 registered speakers in the room. 

9 [No audible response.] 

10 MR. KOERBER: If not, guess what? Short 

11 break. 

12 [Recess taken from 3:49 to 4:02 p.m.] 

13 MR. KOERBER: I have 4:02. We will go 

14 back in session. We have another speaker. I'd 

15 like to call Brenda Smith. 

16 Ms. Smith, if you'd like to come up to 

17 the table, and if you could provide your name and 

18 spelling for our court reporter. Thank you. 

19 MS. SMITH: My name is Brenda Smith, 

20 B-r-e-n-d-a, S-m-i-t-h. I'm the executive 

21 director of the Nine Mile Run Watershed 

22 Association, here in Pittsburgh. We're an 
251 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 environmental organization that focuses on 

2 restoring and protecting our watershed, which is 

3 the site of the largest urban stream and wetlands 

4 restoration that the Army Corps of Engineers has 

5 completed anywhere in the United States. 

6 And one of the big challenges that we 

7 work on is helping our watershed residents to 

8 work towards more sustainable stormwater 

9 management in our watershed, and we've also 

10 become very involved in that issue regionally. 

11 And in that context, we are more and more 

12 aware all the time of the serious impact that 

13 global climate change is already having in the 

14 stormwater management arena. The 10-year storm 

15 now arrives with alarming regularity every 2 or 3 

16 years, and new records are being constantly set 

17 for amount of rainfall on a given date or amount 

18 of rainfall within a 1-hour period, and it makes 

19 it extremely challenging to figure out more 

20 sustainable solutions for stormwater management 

21 than those that we are currently using 

22 You may be aware that our region is under 
252 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 a consent decree to reduce our sewer overflows, 

2 and we're grappling as a region with how to 

3 afford to do that and how to do it in a way that 

4 doesn't make some of our other environment 

5 problems worse, such as our air quality problem. 

6 So that brings me to my other point, 

7 which is that taking off my professional hit and 

8 just from a personal standpoint as a resident of 

9 Pittsburgh, one of my biggest concerns is our air 

10 quality. I love this city, and I would like to 

11 stay here, but I think more and more often these 

12 days about whether or not that's really a good 

13 idea because we have the second worst air quality 

14 in the United States. And I'm very hopeful that 

15 this Clean Power Plan that's been proposed could 

16 help us to eventually get to a point where it's 

17 not as dangerous to exercise out of doors here as 

18 it currently is. 

19 Our incidence of cancer is much higher 

20 than the national average because of our air 

21 quality, and I just think that when we know that 

22 there are alternatives available that we could 
253 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 readily use right now, it's really unconscionable 

2 to just continue in the same situation, putting 

3 people's health and lives at risk to just 

4 continue using the same kind of dirty power. 

5 So I really strongly advocate, both 

6 professionally and personally, for the adoption 

7 of the Clean Power Plan, and I appreciate this 

8 opportunity to present my concerns. 

9 Thank you. 

10 MR. KOERBER: Thank you. Thank you for 

11 being with us today. 

12 Do we have any other registered speakers? 

13 [No audible response.] 

14 MR. KOERBER: If not, we will go on break 

15 again. Thank you. Be patient. 

16 [Recess taken from 4:05 to 4:15 p.m.] 

17 MR. KOERBER: I have 4:15. We'll go back 

18 in session, and I'll call Lyndsey O'Day. 

19 You have an umbrella. It's not raining, 

20 is it? 

21 MS. O'DAY: Oh, not yet. 

22 [Laughter.] 
254 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. KOERBER: It was beautiful at lunch. 

2 MS. O'DAY: I am Lyndsey O'Day, spelled 

3 L-y-n-d-s-e-y, O, apostrophe, D-a-y. I'm here 

4 with the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine 

5 Workers of America. This August, our 74th 

6 national convention was held, and delegates 

7 across the country came together to decide the 

8 policy of the union for the next two years, and I 

9 would like to share our environmental resolution 

10 entitled "Protect Our Planet for Future 

11 Generations." 

12 Since UE's convention in 2013, the 

13 climate change crisis has worsened. The 

14 non-renewable energy industry and its paid-for 

15 politicians jeopardized the future of our planet. 

16 In Michigan v. EPA in 2015, the pro-business U.S. 

17 Supreme Court struck down EPA regulations that 

18 would limit emissions from coal power plants 

19 because the EPA refused to consider the cost to 

20 the polluters. 

21 Climate change deniers have also upped 

22 their game. In 2015, both Florida and Wisconsin 
255 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 prohibited state employees from even using the 

2 term "climate change." 

3 The science is unquestionable. 

4 Ninety-seven person of peer-reviewed scientific 

5 literature affirms humans are causing global 

6 warming. UE has long rejected the false choice 

7 between jobs and the environment. Destruction of 

8 jobs and pollution have a common cause: 

9 corporate desire to privatize profits and 

10 socialize costs. Pollution and other 

11 environmental destruction disproportionately 

12 affect the poor, working class, communities of 

13 color, and indigenous people. 

14 UE has long called for public ownership 

15 of the energy industry to prevent racketeering 

16 and price gouging. It is now clear that this 

17 step is also necessary to preserve our planet. 

18 We believe that bringing the voice of 

19 workers to environment issues is necessary, not 

20 only to protect our economic interests, but also 

21 to develop creative solutions that can stop 

22 global warming and preserve the environment. 
256 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Having our nation's economy based on sustainable 

2 energy not only protects our planet, but has the 

3 potential to create millions of well-paying jobs. 

4 A report from the U.S. Council of Mayors 

5 projects that 4.2 million new green jobs can be 

6 added to the U.S. economy by 2038. The barriers 

7 to the creation of a safe renewable sustainable 

8 energy future no longer -- engineering costs or 

9 technology, it is a political problem. 

10 This is not about people losing jobs. 

11 The majority of jobs in coal mining and in 

12 hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, to yield 

13 natural gas are non-union. This is about 

14 creating better, safer jobs. 

15 UE fully supports the concept of a just 

16 transition, whereby workers and their communities 

17 don't bear the burden of the transition from a 

18 fossil fuel-based economy to one based on 

19 renewable energy. A just transition would create 

20 opportunities for displaced workers in their 

21 communities to participate in the new economic 

22 order through compensation for layoffs, loss of 
257 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 tax base, and other negative effects. The energy 

2 profiteers want a world where both labor and 

3 environmental standards are in a race to the 

4 bottom. If they get their way, we get poverty 

5 and a poisoned planet. 

6 To defend them -- to defeat them and 

7 ensure the right of the people to live, work, and 

8 play safe, healthy and clean environments, we 

9 need to form stronger alliances between trade 

10 unions, communities, and the environmental 

11 movement. 

12 Therefore, be it resolved that this 74th 

13 UE convention, one, encourages the union at all 

14 levels to educate members about climate change 

15 and creative solutions that reduce carbon output 

16 while creating good union jobs; two, urge the 

17 environmental movement to incorporate just 

18 transition into the platforms and to push for 

19 solutions that curb the power of corporations 

20 rather than create market incentives; three, 

21 demands that all environmental policies, 

22 including those targeting climate change, 
258 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 incorporate just transition for workers in 

2 economies affected; four, seeks renewable 

3 alternatives to environmentally destructive 

4 methods of energy production; five, supports 

5 worker-oriented efforts to address climate 

6 change, such as Apollo Alliance for good jobs in 

7 clean energy, the Environmental Justice and 

8 Climate Change initiative, and trade unions for 

9 energy democracy; and six, reaffirms the solution 

10 UE proposed to the energy crisis in the 1970s. 

11 Public ownership of the energy industry and 

12 massive investment in renewable energy in order 

13 -- and price gouging and preserve our 

14 environment. 

15 It is clear today that we the people have 

16 a demand of the EPA in drafting a model for the 

17 Clean Power Plan. They are, as follows: one, 

18 ensure the carbon pollution standards in the 

19 model federal plan achieve the pollution 

20 reductions promised in the final Clean Power Plan 

21 or even further reductions; two, ensure that 

22 states address potential carbon pollution from 
259 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 new power plants to achieve overall electric 

2 sector reductions in carbon pollution; three, 

3 protect low-income consumers by maximizing 

4 utilities' incentives to invest in energy 

5 efficiency, which lowers household energy bills; 

6 four, ensure that the model federal plan protects 

7 and benefits minority, low-income, and indigenous 

8 communities that have long borne the brunt of 

9 fossil fuel pollution and may be most likely to 

10 experience the impacts of climate change; and 

11 five, resist giveaways of allowances up to the 

12 most polluting sources. 

13 It is important to acknowledge that the 

14 Clean Power Plan is a step in the right 

15 direction, but it is only the first step. To 

16 ensure that we do indeed protect our planet for 

17 future generations, as our resolution states, we 

18 need public ownership of the energy industry and 

19 massive investment in renewable energy for the 

20 benefit of all and not for the profit of the few. 

21 Thank you. 

22 MR. KOERBER: Thank you very much. 
260 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 I'm curious. Can you give me 30 seconds 

2 on UE in terms of its scope as far as industries 

3 and geography? 

4 MS. O'DAY: UE is the only democratic 

5 union in the United States. We are a trade 

6 union, and our history has been organizing 

7 electric industry, such as General Electric, 

8 Westinghouse, but since then, we have expanded 

9 our scope to include public sector workers and 

10 cooperatives. 

11 MR. KOERBER: Okay. Thank you. 

12 MS. O'DAY: Thank you. 

13 MR. KOERBER: Appreciate you being here 

14 today. 

15 MS. O'DAY: Thanks. 

16 MR. KOERBER: We have no other registered 

17 speakers. We will go on break again. 

18 [Recess taken from 4:21 to 4:40 p.m.] 

19 MR. KOERBER: Good afternoon. I have 

20 just about 4:40. We have another registered 

21 speaker. I'd like to call David Masur. 

22 Good afternoon, sir. 
261 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. MASUR: Good afternoon. Thank you 

2 for having me. My name is David Masur. It's 

3 spelled M as in Matthew, a-s as in Sam, u-r. I'm 

4 assuming I can just roll or -- 

5 MR. KOERBER: The floor is yours, sir. 

6 MR. MASUR: Okay, great. As I said, my 

7 name is David Masur, and I am the executive 

8 director for PennEnvironment. PennEnvironment is 

9 a citizen-based statewide environmental advocacy 

10 group with over 150,000 contributing members, 

11 volunteers, and activists from all over the 

12 Commonwealth. I am also a resident of 

13 Philadelphia. 

14 First and foremost, I want to thank EPA 

15 for holding this hearing today and allowing me to 

16 testify. I also want to thank EPA for its 

17 leadership in tackling climate change and moving 

18 full steam ahead with the Clean Power Plan, a 

19 truly historic initiative to tackle global 

20 warming and reduce CO2 emissions from the single 

21 largest source in the U.S., coal-fired power 

22 plants. 
262 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 As a father of two young children, my 

2 5-year-old son Owen and my two-year-old daughter 

3 Evan, I cannot put into words my frustration with 

4 the gridlock in Congress, the influence of the 

5 nation's largest global warming polluters, and 

6 the ensuring inaction in Washington, D.C., and 

7 state capitals across the nation. This has led 

8 the U.S. to kicking the can down the road on real 

9 action to address climate change for far too 

10 long. 

11 I now have renewed faith that with EPA's 

12 leadership under the Clean Power Plan, we will 

13 finally be able to take the first crucial steps 

14 to solve climate change for our kids and for 

15 future generations. 

16 This is paramount, given that climate 

17 change is undoubtedly the most profound challenge 

18 facing our planet today for more extreme weather 

19 like Super Storm Sandy, which wreaked havoc on 

20 Pennsylvania and the region to hotter summer days 

21 that will inevitably trigger more asthma attacks 

22 and other respiratory ailments to the state's 
263 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 residents and asthma sufferers like myself and my 

2 son Owen to an ongoing list of other negative 

3 effects for our planet, economy, health, and 

4 security. 

5 Given this, I specifically want to 

6 applaud EPA's Clean Power Plan for creating a 

7 system that allows the state to create and 

8 customize its own state-specific plan, while 

9 including the federal implementation plan that 

10 serves as a much needed backstop for ensuring 

11 that all states carry their weight to reduce 

12 their carbon footprint and tackle climate change. 

13 That being said, I'm also hopeful that 

14 the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania uses this 

15 opportunity afforded under the Clean Power Plan 

16 to move full steam ahead with its own state 

17 implementation plan that is firmly based in 

18 promoting truly clean energy sources, like wind 

19 and solar power, favoring energy conservation and 

20 efficiency, and protects low-income communities 

21 and Pennsylvania's historic coal communities in 

22 the transition. 
264 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 At the same time, I hope the Commonwealth 

2 uses this opportunity to make sure we're 

3 including pollution both from existing and new 

4 power plants in our state plan and ideally going 

5 well above and beyond the benchmarks set by EPA 

6 under the Clean Power Plan. 

7 Again, I want to thank EPA for holding 

8 this hearing today and allowing me to testify on 

9 this important issue, and thank you for your 

10 continued leadership to promote solutions to 

11 climate change. 

12 Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. 

13 MR. KOERBER: Thank you, sir. Thank you 

14 for being here today. 

15 We will go no break until we have more 

16 registered speakers. 

17 [Recess taken from 4:44 to 5 p.m.] 

18 MR. KOERBER: The time is 5 p.m., and we 

19 have no more speakers. I will adjourn this 

20 afternoon's session. We will be in a recess 

21 until 6 p.m. for our dinner break, so have a good 

22 dinner, and for those of you coming back, we will 
265 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 re-adjourn in this room at 6 p.m. 

2 Thank you. 

3 [Dinner recess taken from 5 to 6 p.m.] 

4 MR. CAMPBELL: Good evening. This is 

5 David Campbell with the U.S. Environmental 

6 Protection Agency. It is Thursday, November 

7 12th, and we are opening the public hearing on 

8 the proposed federal plan and model rules for the 

9 Clean Power Plan for existing power plans. 

10 It is now 6 p.m., and we are going to be 

11 in recess. 

12 [Recess taken from 6 to 6:21 p.m.] 

13 MR. CAMPBELL: We're going to reopen this 

14 evening's hearing. 

15 Good evening. My name is David Campbell 

16 with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. I 

17 am the chair of today's public hearing. Thank 

18 you for coming out today. 

19 Joining me on the panel today are Emily 

20 Linn and my colleague, Bob -- Robert Stoltzfus. 

21 Fossil fuel-fired power plants are the 

22 largest source of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions, 
266 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 or carbon pollution, accounting for 31 percent of 

2 U.S. total greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing 

3 carbon pollution from power plants is an 

4 essential step in lessening the impacts of 

5 climate change and providing a more certain 

6 future for our environment, our health, and 

7 future generations. 

8 We are here today to listen to your 

9 comments on the EPA's proposed federal plan and 

10 model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

11 existing power plants. 

12 The proposed federal plans will achieve 

13 the same levels of emissions performance as 

14 required of state plans under the Clean Power 

15 Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 

16 those states with affected electricity generating 

17 units, or EGUs, that the EPA determines have 

18 failed to submit an approvable 111(d) state plan 

19 by the relevant deadline set in the emission 

20 guidelines. 

21 In those states where a federal plan may 

22 be required, a final federal plan will implement 
267 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 the same emission guidelines for affected power 

2 plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 

3 would not require additional control requirements 

4 or impose additional costs. 

5 Even where a federal plan is put in place 

6 for a particular state, that state will still be 

7 able to submit a state plan which, if approved, 

8 will allow the state and its sources to exit the 

9 federal plan. States may take delegation of 

10 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

11 order to become the primary implementers or 

12 submit partial state plans in order to take over 

13 the implementation of a portion of a federal 

14 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 

15 adopt complementary measures outside of that plan 

16 to facilitate compliance and lower cost to the 

17 benefit of power generators and consumers. 

18 The proposal also includes a model rule 

19 for those states that are developing their own 

20 state plans. The EPA intends to finalize both 

21 rate-based and mass-spaced model trading rules in 

22 Summer 2016. A state program that adheres to the 
268 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 model trading rule provisions specified in the 

2 rulemaking, when final, would be presumptively 

3 approvable. There are stand-alone portions of 

4 the model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 

5 measurement, and verification procedures for 

6 emission rate credits, or ERCs, that would be 

7 approvable even if a state adopted an approach 

8 that differs in other respects from the model 

9 rule. 

10 In addition, the proposal contains a 

11 finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 

12 implement a Section 111(d) federal plan for the 

13 affected EGUs, or electric generating units, 

14 located in Indian Country. CO2 emissions 

15 performance rates for these facilities were 

16 finalized in the Clean Power Plan. 

17 Information on how the EPA will reach out 

18 to communities throughout the comment period and 

19 an overview of the actions that EPA is taking to 

20 ensure that vulnerable communities are not being 

21 disproportionately impacted by this rulemaking. 

22 If you would like more details on the 
269 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 proposed rule, there are fact sheets available at 

2 the registration desk. 

3 Before we get started, I'd like to go 

4 through a few housekeeping items and ground rules 

5 that will help make this evening's hearing run 

6 smoothly. 

7 First, please be sure that you have 

8 checked in at the registration desk, even if you 

9 are not planning to speak today, and if you 

10 signed up to speak online or by phone but haven't 

11 told us that you are here, please step out to the 

12 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

13 you have arrived. 

14 I will call up speakers in pairs or solo. 

15 When your name is called, please come to the 

16 speakers table at the front of the room. When I 

17 call on you to speak, please state your name and 

18 spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 

19 will be transcribed and included in the record of 

20 comments on the proposed rule. 

21 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

22 comments. We have a timer light to help you know 
270 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 how much time you have left to speak. When it 

2 turns red, that's a signal that you are -- excuse 

3 me. When the light turns from green to yellow, 

4 that means you have 1 minutes remaining. When it 

5 turns red, that is a signal that you are at 5 

6 minutes, and it's time to stop. When you have 

7 finished speaking, please remain at the table 

8 until the person next to you has completed his or 

9 her testimony. 

10 We are here to listen to you today; 

11 however, panel members may ask questions to 

12 clarify your comments. 

13 I will then call up the next pair of 

14 speakers and so on. If you have brought a 

15 written copy of your testimony, please give that 

16 to the staff at the registration desk before you 

17 leave today, and if you happen to have an extra 

18 copy, please provide one to the court reporter. 

19 We will put any written comments 

20 submitted today in the official docket for the 

21 proposed rule. We also have comment cards 

22 available at the registration desk if you would 
271 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 like to submit additional written comments today. 

2 If you want to comment in writing later, stop by 

3 the materials table near the registration desk, 

4 and pick up a copy of instructions for submitting 

5 written comments. 

6 Comments must be received by January 

7 21st, 2016. Let me assure you that EPA gives 

8 just as much consideration to comments received 

9 in writing as we do to comments we receive a 

10 public hearings like this one. So if you have 

11 more comments that you would like to provide the 

12 EPA, please submit them by the comment period 

13 deadline, again, January 21st, 2016. Your 

14 comments will be reviewed. 

15 If you have any questions during the day, 

16 please see the staff at the registration desk. 

17 Someone will assist you. 

18 Thank you again for taking the time this 

19 evening to share your comments on the EPA's 

20 proposal. We can now begin the hearing. 

21 I'd like to call our first speaker, 

22 Russell Thorsen. 
272 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. THORSEN: Hi. Should I spell my name 

2 or -- R-u-s-s-e-l-l, and T-h-o-r-s-e-n. 

3 So I'm an environmental study student, 

4 and I feel like this rule is really important to 

5 be passed. I know Pennsylvania has a pretty 

6 groggy history of never really passing stuff 

7 until it actually has to be done by the federal 

8 government, so it would be really great if the 

9 federal government does make a big plan where we 

10 have to cut carbon emissions. 

11 I know even not even looking at global 

12 warming, the amount of really health concerns 

13 that carbon emissions, especially coal plants, do 

14 to the surrounding communities are really 

15 dangerous and really bad for everyone around 

16 them. 

17 And I know that growing up, I really 

18 would love to have less fossil fuels going on. 

19 It would just be nice to not have that this -- 

20 because it's a pretty big detriment to the 

21 environment. As one of the best, I guess, 

22 economies in the world, we kind of have the 
273 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 responsibility to cut our carbon emissions as 

2 well as invest in renewable energies. 

3 Yeah, that's about it. 

4 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Russell. 

5 MR. THORSEN: Yeah. 

6 MR. CAMPBELL: You may be excused. 

7 MR. THORSEN: Okay. 

8 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah, it's a little -- 

9 it's a formal process, so there's not a lot of 

10 back-and-forth, so you make your testimony and 

11 then -- 

12 MR. THORSEN: I can just go? 

13 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah. 

14 MR. THORSEN: Okay. 

15 MR. CAMPBELL: And you may sit in the 

16 audience and listen to other speakers, or you may 

17 adjourn. 

18 MR. THORSEN: Okay. 

19 Could I ask you guys this question just 

20 for a paper I have to write? 

21 MR. CAMPBELL: Not in the public hearing 

22 process. 
274 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 MR. THORSEN: Okay. 

2 MR. CAMPBELL: You can talk to folks at 

3 the registration desk or other colleagues. 

4 MR. THORSEN: Okay. All right. Well, 

5 thanks for listening. 

6 MR. CAMPBELL: Having no further speakers 

7 waiting to speak, we will now be in recess. 

8 [Recess taken from 6:30 to 6:47 p.m.] 

9 MR. CAMPBELL: The session is back in 

10 order. I'll call the next speaker. Please state 

11 and spell your name for the court reporter, 

12 please. 

13 MS. SWERDLOW: I'm Naomi, N-a-o-m-I, 

14 Swerdlow, S-w-e-r-d-l-o-w, and I wanted to say 

15 that Obama had announced the plan in August. 

16 It's about time to implement the Clean Power 

17 Plan, and coal power plants are known by the EPA 

18 to threaten the health of Americans, and many 

19 children are growing up in asthma, especially in 

20 areas where they're affected by air quality. And 

21 there are also smells in certain areas. You can 

22 see the smoke and all the awful stuff that comes 
275 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 out of it. 

2 And there's climate changes affecting 

3 everywhere that comes from -- that also comes 

4 from the coal and the pollution, so we need to 

5 protect our future. 

6 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you for your 

7 testimony. 

8 The hearing is now in temporary recess. 

9 [Recess taken from 6:48 to 7:03 p.m.] 

10 MR. CAMPBELL: We'll call the hearing 

11 back into session. 

12 Mr. McLaughlin, whenever you're ready, 

13 please state your name and spell it for the court 

14 reporter, please. 

15 MR. McLAUGHLIN: For sure. My name is 

16 Shane McLaughlin. That's S-h-a-n-e, M-c, capital 

17 L, a-u-g-h-l-i-n. 

18 As I said, my name is Shane. I am a 

19 student at the University of Pittsburgh, so I 

20 represent the students and the youth community. 

21 What brought this legislation hearing 

22 about is obviously the issue of climate change 
276 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 and its causes, and this adversely affects the 

2 health of the people on the planet in this area 

3 as well as across the globe, disproportionately 

4 affecting people of color, lower socioeconomic 

5 status, and developing countries. 

6 As many scientific studies have shown, 

7 the way we produce and consume energy is a huge 

8 contributor to this problem, the pollution that 

9 is destroying our planet, and if action is not 

10 taken soon, our poison planet will continue to 

11 lash out at us, intensified natural disasters, 

12 displacement of thousands of people, drought and 

13 countless other effects are already a reality 

14 around the world and will only intensify. 

15 We are on the brink of growing so big and 

16 so fast that we'll make this planet uninhabitable 

17 for ourselves and for future generations, and so 

18 it is absolutely essential that we completely 

19 transform our energy economy as quickly as 

20 science, government, and people will allow. 

21 The Clean Power Plan is a fantastic start 

22 to this, and it is a relief to know that we are 
277 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 finally making laws regulating the pollution from 

2 power plants, and so I would really urge you guys 

3 to make this plan as strong as you possibly can 

4 and to make sure that it can be enforced on the 

5 federal level if states do not implement their 

6 own version. 

7 Well, I think the Clean Power Plan is a 

8 fantastic start. I think that this is an issue 

9 -- this is a moral issue that we needs to dig 

10 deeper into. I know that this is an 

11 environmental agency and not an economic one, but 

12 I would love to see part of the federal plan 

13 include stipulation or incentives for greener 

14 power sources and companies to be located in the 

15 areas affected by coal power plants. 

16 Our current energy economy grants huge 

17 profits to big business while taking advantage of 

18 the worker and societies around them, and I hope 

19 that this plan will take into account this 

20 injustice. This is a huge opportunity, as this 

21 plan will create thousands of clean and 

22 sustainable jobs, and these jobs should ideally 
278 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 go to the people who will be losing theirs 

2 because of this. 

3 It is fantastic to cut emissions, but it 

4 is imperative that the people are not left out of 

5 this equation because our fate is intertwined and 

6 connected with that of the planet, and this 

7 impending catastrophe caused by our lifestyles 

8 and societal structures must be connected to the 

9 solutions in a way that addresses these societal 

10 problems. 

11 Discussing the issue of climate change, I 

12 would like to close with the idea that when I 

13 talk about this with my friends and fellow 

14 students, we all see the situation as a golden 

15 opportunity to address and combat a vast array of 

16 issues that are a reality in our society today. 

17 And that is all I have. I would like to 

18 thank you at the EPA for giving us the 

19 opportunity to have our voices heard, and thank 

20 you for protecting the one thing that makes human 

21 life possible. And I hope this plan is strong 

22 and fierce and the first of many of its kind. 
279 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376 

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

1 Thank you. 

2 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you for your 

3 testimony. 

4 The hearing will now be in temporary 

5 recess. 

6 [Recess taken from 7:07 to 8 p.m.] 

7 MR. CAMPBELL: I'm going to bring the 

8 hearing back into session. It is now 8 p.m. 

9 There are no speakers waiting to testify. I will 

10 now close tonight's session. 

11 [Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the hearing 

12 recessed, to reconvene at 9:12 a.m., Friday, 

13 November 13, 2015.] 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22