U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office

Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800

Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001

23–616 2017

S. HRG. 115–2 

THE NOMINATION OF THE HONORABLE RICK 

PERRY TO BE SECRETARY OF ENERGY 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON 

ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

JANUARY 19, 2017 

( 

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on Energy and Natural Resources 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://fdsys.gov 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES 

LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman 

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming 

JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho 

MIKE LEE, Utah 

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona 

STEVE DAINES, Montana 

CORY GARDNER, Colorado 

JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama 

LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee 

JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota 

BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana 

ROB PORTMAN, Ohio 

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington 

RON WYDEN, Oregon 

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont 

DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan 

AL FRANKEN, Minnesota 

JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia 

MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico 

MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii 

ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine 

TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois 

CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada 

COLIN HAYES, Staff Director 

PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel 

KELLIE DONNELLY, Deputy Chief Counsel 

BRIANNE MILLER, Senior Professional Staff Member and Energy Policy Advisor 

ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director 

SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

OPENING STATEMENTS 

Page 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska ................... 1 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from Washington .................................................................................................................... 4 

Cornyn, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from Texas .................................................... 6 

Manchin III, Hon. Joe, a U.S. Senator from West Virginia ................................. 8 

WITNESSES 

Perry, Hon. Rick, nominated to be Secretary of Energy ...................................... 11 

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 

Air Conditioning Contractors of America, et al: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 126 

Cantwell, Hon. Maria: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 4 

Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 127 

Cornyn, Hon. John: 

Introduction ...................................................................................................... 6 

Duncan, Robert: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 128 

Hirano, Kathleen: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 130 

Hispanic Leadership Fund: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 134 

Kennedy, Liz: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 135 

Khator, Renu: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 136 

Manchin III, Hon. Joe: 

Introduction ...................................................................................................... 8 

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 1 

National Association of Home Builders: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 138 

Perry, Hon. Rick: 

Opening Statement ........................................................................................... 11 

Written Testimony ............................................................................................ 15 

Responses to Questions for the Record ........................................................... 64 

Peterman, Patricia: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 140 

Studer, David: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 141 

United Technologies Council: 

Letter for the Record ........................................................................................ 159 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
(1) 

THE NOMINATION OF THE HONORABLE RICK 

PERRY TO BE SECRETARY OF ENERGY 

THURSDAY, JANUARY 19, 2017 

U.S. SENATE, 

COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES, 

Washington, DC. 

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:35 a.m., in Room 

SD–366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski, 

Chairman of the Committee, presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S. 

SENATOR FROM ALASKA 

The CHAIRMAN. Good morning. The committee will come to order. 

I would like to welcome you all to our second Cabinet-level confirmation hearing of this inaugural week. 

I would like to start by thanking Senator Cornyn, the senior Senator from Texas, for being here to speak on behalf of our nominee. 

It is always good to have you before the committee. I would also 

like to thank our fellow committee member, Senator Manchin from 

West Virginia, who is prepared to offer introductory remarks for 

our nominee. 

Governor Perry, I would like to extend a warm welcome to you 

and to your family. Know that I appreciate your desire to serve and 

your willingness to become our next Secretary of Energy. I enjoyed 

the meeting that we had together, learning more about your leadership as Governor of the State of Texas, including your accomplishments in the area of energy and environment. 

I am going to withhold this morning any reference to Texas size 

versus Alaska size. We have had that discussion and—— 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. PERRY. You won. 

The CHAIRMAN. I won, yes. But in all seriousness, we know that 

you are seeking to lead the Department of Energy (DOE) at both 

an interesting time and a critical time. DOE has helped make our 

nation a global leader in research and development by supporting 

basic research, by encouraging scientific exploration, and fostering 

innovation. 

At the heart of these efforts are scientific research funded by the 

Department and the 17 national laboratories that employ the Department’s greatest assets, and those assets, of course, are the scientists who dedicate, not just their careers, but in so many cases, 

they dedicate their lives, to solving some of the toughest challenges 

that face our nation and really face the world. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
2 

I am hopeful that if you are confirmed, Governor Perry, you will 

take a broad view of the importance of basic scientific research and 

continue to pursue the significant benefits that will result from it. 

Done right and in a disciplined manner, a good set of innovation 

policies will provide us with more energy, reduce the amount of energy that we use and lower the costs that we pay for energy. 

In my view, those are the guiding principles for the Department. 

I would encourage you, as you move forward, to work with the rest 

of the Administration to increase access to energy, to make energy 

more affordable and to continue to improve its environmental 

goals. 

Folks here at the committee know that I have a set of principles 

that are pretty easy. It is accessible, affordable, clean, diverse, and 

secure. There is no acronym there. It is in alphabetical order so 

that we remember it all. 

I sum it all up in one bumper sticker that just says ‘‘Energy is 

good’’ because I believe that, and I hope that you believe that as 

well. If these are your goals, if we share the same outcome here, 

I think that we can greatly contribute to the prosperity of this 

country, of our standard of living, and to the health of our planet. 

I would also encourage you to ensure that the Department of Energy steps up and becomes an advocate for energy supply within 

the councils of our Government. It seems that in these past years, 

we have seen other agencies that have been successful in taking resources off the table, regardless of the long-term consequences for 

the American people. 

One of the biggest challenges facing the Secretary of Energy is 

the management of a large and very complex organization with 

thousands of employees and tens of thousands of contractors. I do 

not subscribe to the view that only a scientist can manage other 

scientists. Instead, I think what we need is a good manager. 

We need a manager to manage all these scientists, one who acknowledges ‘‘maybe I don’t know everything in that space,’’ but 

being capable of organizing, setting direction, imposing accountability, making the greatest possible use of taxpayer dollars, and 

reaching goals. 

Governor Perry, as the longest-serving Governor of Texas, you 

have considerable experience leading a big and a very sophisticated 

enterprise. I believe that will serve you well as Secretary and look 

forward to hearing how you would carry that experience over to the 

Department. 

If you are confirmed, you will also find yourself in a position to 

make the Department run more effectively. Secretary Moniz, I 

think, has made some very good progress in breaking down some 

of the silos that have historically frustrated the Department, but 

I think we all recognize that there is more that can be done. Offices 

within the Department must do a better job working together to 

utilize limited resources and reduce unnecessary duplication. 

I know that in our conversation you made a commitment to travel to my state. I am sure that as you have visited with other members, you have made similar commitments to them. But I do appreciate your willingness to come to Alaska, to see my home state 

firsthand. While the Department of the Interior is usually the one 

that makes the headlines in Alaska, the Department of Energy is 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
3 

also very important in perhaps three key ways that I can point out 

to you this morning. 

The first is what the Department can do to help reduce extremely high energy costs in the State of Alaska. Our energy costs 

are the greatest challenge facing our rural areas. Many of our communities are still reliant on diesel as their primary energy source, 

and in many of the small interior communities—again inaccessible 

by road, you get a barge twice a year—they may be experiencing 

fuel prices in the range of $9–$10 a gallon for their fuel. 

It is not sustainable. It simply does not work. It is a huge burden, and what ultimately can happen is you have families that just 

say we cannot live here. We cannot stay in a village, in a region 

that we have been in for 1,000 years because the energy costs are 

driving us away. So they leave their villages, and they go to town— 

Anchorage, Fairbanks. But it really is not the right choice. I think 

our challenge should be to help them find those energy solutions. 

This is where I think we in Alaska can offer a great deal of opportunity because we have been innovative, innovative because of 

necessity, and we have a lot to share, we think, with the rest of 

the country in terms of demonstrating how we can find energy solutions very locally. We have more microgrids and more to talk 

about in that microgrid space than anywhere else in the country. 

So I ask you to use us, use that expertise. 

I think the Department of Energy has some great opportunity to 

partner with communities and organizations, not only in Alaska 

but around the country, to develop real solutions, particularly with 

renewable energy, that can help reduce our energy costs. 

I have told you I think that Alaska can be that proving ground, 

and we look at it and say if you have got new technologies that 

make sense somewhere else, we can pretty much guarantee that 

they will make sense in Alaska, and then we are the beneficiary 

because we see the reduced costs. I want to see the Department 

make a much greater effort to capitalize on that going forward. 

The second way the Department can work with Alaska is to help 

us bring our stranded natural gas to market. Last year, the Department granted a conditional export license to the Alaska gasline 

project, but we have to continue receiving good, strong support and 

timely approvals from the Federal Government if the project is 

going to succeed. 

Finally, the Department of Energy can help Alaska commercialize more of its vast resource base. The Office of Fossil Energy 

has focused almost exclusively on the environmental aspects of 

fuels in these recent years, but its mission is supposed to be considerably broader than that. A renewed focus on precompetitive research on methane hydrates and other resources could lead to new 

breakthroughs and boost our nation’s energy security long into the 

future. 

I do think it is important to recognize that this committee, which 

has a reputation of working collaboratively in a good, bipartisan 

way (Senator Cantwell and I, along with our colleagues) has been 

able to move the ball forward on some very important energy 

issues. We have been able to do that in part with the Department 

of Energy because we have had a good, positive relationship with 

the current Secretary of Energy, Ernie Moniz. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
4 

I think he has done well as Secretary. While I did not always 

agree with him, it was a working relationship that was solid, and 

there was good respect. I hope that in that respect, you will follow 

his lead there, working with us, making yourself available to us, 

whether to testify here, to just keep in contact, stay in touch, and 

generally be responsive to our members here. If you can do that, 

I think you will be on the right track, and we will work together 

as we seek to maintain America’s energy leadership. 

Again, I thank you for being here this morning and your willingness to serve, and I now turn to Ranking Member Cantwell. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

WASHINGTON 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Welcome, Governor Perry, and welcome to your family. Congratulations on your nomination. 

In case you may have forgotten, you once called for the abolishment of this agency. I suspect that now, having had a chance to 

learn about the importance of this Department, you have a very 

different opinion. 

The Department, as the Chair just mentioned, plays an essential 

role in protecting our national security, our economic security, our 

energy security, and our environmental security, Its wide-ranging 

mission impacts almost every aspect of our lives. The Department 

of Energy is a science and technology powerhouse, with an 

unrivaled network of national laboratories, accelerating innovation 

and making sure our U.S. manufacturing base stay competitive. 

The Department of Energy has helped make the United States 

a world leader in clean energy and energy efficiency technology development. There are now more people working in installing solar 

panels in the country than there are working in coal or oil and gas 

extraction. 

The Department of Energy has built and maintained our nuclear 

deterrent, led the science and technology development that continues to guide our ongoing nonproliferation efforts that manage 

the nuclear weapons complex—facilities such as Hanford, that 

helped us win World War II and the Cold War. So it is very important that we talk today about our steadfast determination on cleanup at Hanford, and I will get into that more. 

Also as threats to our national security continue to evolve, the 

Department of Energy’s mission has to evolve. The Quadrennial 

Energy Review, which was done by the Obama Administration’s 

Secretary Moniz, found that cybersecurity and emergency responses are critical. Just as the Defense Advanced Research 

Projects Agency helped us in the development of the Internet, it is 

now time for ARPA–E to help us in the wired economy of the future and making sure that it is well protected. 

It will be the job of the next Energy Secretary to be a good overseer of these enterprises—not only to maintain the achievements of 

the past 40 years, but also to maintain U.S. leadership in an increasingly competitive global market for clean energy technologies 

and to protect the grid from the growing threats of cyber attacks. 

Leading the national labs is going to be a critical aspect of this 

leadership, and leading the R&D is paramount. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
5 

It is our job today to consider how well you will do that job. Like 

many of my colleagues, I am deeply concerned by some of the 

things that Governor Perry has said in the past about climate 

science. We will get into that in more detail. 

I believe it is the consensus of the scientific community that climate change is real, that it is happening now, and it is due to 

human activity. Yesterday, NASA announced that 2016 was the 

warmest year on record. In the Arctic, where warming is happening faster than any place on Earth, the melting of sea ice is 

now at an all-time high. How do we know all of this? We know because the Department of Energy does the research. 

We want to make sure that climate science in the Arctic is not 

just something the Department of Energy, its national laboratories 

and its university partners are doing, We need people to understand that it is not just some academic pursuit. We need the information for very important decisions. The nature and the pace of 

these changes have serious impacts for the Department of Defense 

investments and the kinds of infrastructure we need to stand up 

in the Arctic. 

I know the chair would agree with this. We are an Arctic nation. 

That means that this part of the world is going to be coveted by 

many nations. Its shipping lanes, its trade routes, its defense 

issues are going to be central. So as Senator Murkowski could also 

tell you, the implication for Arctic communities and their way of 

life is also impacted. In my state alone, our fisheries industry and 

the shellfish industry were almost devastated by ocean acidification. The Department of Energy’s scientific horsepower is key to 

understanding these trends. I hope you can understand that there 

is widespread anxiety about President-elect Trump’s intention to 

dismantle these scientific capabilities or simply just starve them 

for resources. 

We hope that you, Governor Perry, will be someone who understands and believes in the science mission of this agency and will 

lead it to the best of your abilities. 

Mission Innovation, which is the priority of this agency in continuing to move forward with renewable energy, is also critically 

important. Almost two million Americans work in energy efficiency 

alone, driving significant savings to consumers by these advancements. 

The Quadrennial Energy Review estimates that we need 1.5 million new energy jobs by 2030, most of which will be in grid modernization and clean energy. 

What we have seen through the innovation that has happened 

through Sandia National Laboratories, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, 

the University of Washington, and many other individuals is that 

the cost of utility-scale solar has dropped 64 percent since 2008, 

which caused solar energy last year to lead all forms of energy in 

new capacity installation in the United States. 

We have seen energy efficiency in buildings give back billions to 

consumers in savings. More than 115,000 electric vehicles (EVs) 

were sold in the U.S. in 2015, doubling the amount of 2012, and 

the DOE’s Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE), office 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
6 

helped bring down the cost of EVs through better research on battery technologies. 

All of these energy innovations rely on the important investments that are made by the Department of Energy and the national labs that support them. 

The choice before us, in my opinion, Governor Perry, is pretty 

clear: the Trump Administration can either cling to the fossil fuel 

industry of the past or continue to lead on the innovations that are 

going to be the leading technologies in the world and put the U.S. 

in a clear leadership position. I hope you will understand that 

these missions are so important. 

Along with that is also the mission of nuclear waste clean-up, 

which is close to 20 percent of the agency’s budget. The science and 

technology that underpins our ability to clean up here is critically 

important, as well as protecting us through nonproliferation efforts. 

As I mentioned earlier, the Quadrennial Energy Review could 

not be clearer on the issue of cybersecurity. In light of recent revelations about Russian hacking, the Secretary of Energy needs to 

take very seriously the threats to this nation and to our electricity 

grid. 

We are increasingly becoming a wired economy. My constituents 

spend night and days developing new technologies. They deserve a 

President and an Energy Secretary who are going to take the 

threats of Russian hacking seriously and defend us against them. 

I hope that we can go into more detail in questions about this. 

I also want to make sure that you understand that the past Energy 

Secretary is leaving you with a roadmap for cybersecurity. I hope 

you will take it and provide the leadership that our nation needs 

to stop our vulnerabilities against something so important and protect the innovation economy of the future from incessant attacks by 

foreign entities. 

With that, and on behalf of the 15,000 Washington workers that 

work at Hanford and the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, I 

hope that you will take what we have said here today about 

science, innovation, and investment very seriously. I look forward 

to asking you questions, and again, congratulations on being nominated for this important agency. 

Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. 

At this time, we will ask Senator Cornyn to provide his introduction of the nominee. When Senator Cornyn has completed his comments, we will turn to you, Senator Manchin, and then we will proceed to hear from Governor Perry. 

Welcome, Senator Cornyn. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

TEXAS 

Senator CORNYN. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski and Ranking 

Member Cantwell, colleagues. Thank you for holding this hearing 

to consider the nomination of my friend, Governor Rick Perry, to 

be Secretary of the Department of Energy and allowing me the opportunity of introducing him. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
7 

I want to just also introduce his wife, Anita, who is here today. 

He has his extended family, including some of his adopted family, 

here with him today, and I will let him introduce the rest of them. 

Sandy, my wife, and I got to know Rick and Anita when we both 

ran for statewide office in 1990. It has been a few years now. Rick 

had already served in the Air Force, and he had served in the State 

legislature before being elected as Agriculture Commissioner in 

Texas. I got elected to the Texas Supreme Court that same year. 

Of course, later, in December of 2000, Rick assumed the office of 

Governor of the State of Texas, becoming, as Chairman Murkowski 

noted, the longest-serving Governor in our state. 

Serving in public office alongside of someone that long gives you 

a chance to assess their character and their abilities. I am here to 

say that I know Governor Perry to be a tremendous leader of the 

highest caliber and a dedicated public servant who is committed to 

working on behalf of the people of Texas and now on behalf of the 

nation. 

Rick Perry is not a status quo kind of guy. He is a leader. He 

is an innovator. Texans are, by nature, practical people, looking for 

solutions to problems. Rick has led in that spirit, and I believe the 

results in our state speak for themselves. 

We have been blessed by the leadership of Governor Perry. During his tenure, the state thrived, even as much of the rest of the 

country languished. Texas not only added almost two million jobs 

during his time in office but was responsible for the lion’s share of 

all job growth across the nation from 2007 to 2014. It is really a 

remarkable statistic. 

While he was Governor, Texas also became the top exporting 

state in the country, a title we have held for more than 14 years 

in a row now. The crime rate dropped, and thousands of miles of 

highway lanes were added to our roadways. In other words, under 

Governor Perry’s watch, Texas flourished, and he helped give Texans everywhere even more to brag about. 

But the real measure of a leader is tested in times of hardship 

and trial. Through massive wildfires in places like Bastrop to major 

hurricanes along our Gulf Coast, to the tragic explosion in a West 

Texas fertilizer plant a few years ago, every time, Governor Perry 

demonstrated that he was able to rise to the occasion, make tough 

decisions, and meet the challenge placed in front of him. 

On top of all of these accomplishments, Rick Perry also has a 

proven track record of success when it comes to the Texas energy 

landscape, not an insignificant part of our economy. Many associate 

Texas with the oil and gas industry, and that would be fair. But 

during Rick’s time in Austin, he championed an all-of-the-above energy strategy, really an all-of-the-above energy strategy. It wasn’t 

just rhetoric. It revolutionized production in our state and led to 

more efficient energy use, more jobs, and more innovation. 

So today, Texas not only leads the nation in oil and gas production but produces more wind energy than any other state in the 

country, more than all but five countries in all. Under his leadership, solar energy has continued to grow, and Texas is poised to become a national leader in solar power as well. 

Thanks to his common sense approach to governing, the shale 

revolution arrived in Texas in a big way, creating thousands of jobs 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
8 

and making energy even more affordable for Texas families. So 

Rick doesn’t fall into the either/or trap that so many seem to have 

fallen into, a zero-sum game when we talk about energy. He found 

a way to spur innovation and investment in new technologies without stifling existing technologies and while reducing our state’s carbon footprint as well. In other words, the guiding principles of Governor Perry’s tenure are smart regulation, encouraging innovation, 

and creating a climate that grows every aspect of energy production, and it has continued to serve our state well. 

So I have absolutely no doubt that Rick Perry will put forward 

an America First energy policy at the Department, and it will help 

spawn the next great era of American energy. He has the track 

record. He has the know-how and a real desire to export more 

American energy to enhance the security of our friends and allies 

abroad. Put another way, Rick Perry is simply the right man for 

the job, and it is an honor for me to support his nomination to be 

the third Texan to head the Department of Energy. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Cornyn. 

Senator Manchin. 

STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, U.S. SENATOR FROM 

WEST VIRGINIA 

Senator MANCHIN. Chairman Murkowski and Ranking Member 

Cantwell and all my colleagues, Senator Cornyn, and to Governor 

Perry and to his lovely wife, Anita; to their daughter, Sydney, and 

son-in-law, Brett; and extended family. I know your son Griffin was 

unable to be here today, but I know he is with you in spirit. 

I know some of you might think it is maybe interesting why I 

would be sitting here, and I wanted to explain that as a former 

Governor, Governors form bonds and friendships unlike any other 

elected officials I have ever seen. We travel a lot. We work together. We have the same problems. If it is an education problem, 

if it is a disaster, whatever, we are calling and helping each other 

all the time. So I am here to support my friend—and that is one 

thing we do develop is friendships, as Senator Hoeven knows so 

well and Senator Risch also—the President-elect’s nominee for Secretary of Energy, Governor Rick Perry. 

He is the longest-serving Governor in the history of Texas, as 

Senator Cornyn has said, the 12th largest economy in the world, 

and is uniquely qualified to hold this position. For many years, we 

have been friends, and I know Rick understands how to work 

across the aisle in a bipartisan way to get things done. I have seen 

that firsthand. 

I was honored to call him my colleague, and Senator King understands and our colleagues as Governors, you know, they become 

friends. They become part of your family. In my tenure as Governor 

of the State of West Virginia, let me explain how Rick and I first 

met. 

It was the year of 2005. It was the weekend of Katrina, and we 

were at a Southern Governors Conference. We were sitting there, 

and I had not met Governor Perry before, we meet two or three 

times a year, really get to know each other. We were sitting there, 

and Governor Blanco from Louisiana could not be there because 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
9 

she was told that the hurricane was going to have a devastating 

impact on her state. So Rick and I that weekend were talking back 

and forth, and we were watching the weather reports and what 

was going to happen and discussing the different precautions as 

Governors you want to take to protect all of your citizens to keep 

them out of harm’s way the best you can. 

I will never forget the last day. We were leaving, and Rick had 

to get back. I had to get back to West Virginia. Rick was going back 

to Texas, and I said, ‘‘Rick, do you think the hurricane is—what 

have you heard? Is it going to affect you? ’’ He said, ‘‘Joe,’’ he said, 

‘‘I just talked to our people in Texas, and we think we are going 

to be spared. We are going to be missed by this hurricane.’’ It was 

a blessing. 

Well, lo and behold, within the next week did Rick ever have a 

wide awakening because then, with the devastation that hit, over 

a quarter of a million people, I think, moved in immediately to 

Texas. Texas got overwhelmed at that time, and they did not have 

the support, and we were waiting for someone to kind of direct us. 

Well, as Governors, we took our own initiative. We are all commanders-in-chief of our National Guard, and I said, ‘‘Rick, what 

can we do? ’’ He says, ‘‘I need some help here.’’ We sent C–130s. We 

sent over 1,200 soldiers to help him to move in supplies, to help 

FEMA move supplies, to help move people out because they had 

nowhere to go, and we moved them into West Virginia. It was just 

a collaboration of how government should work and how we all 

should be working together. 

So I watched him under that really tough situation. People were 

depending on Rick to step to the table, and he did. He took care 

of them, never missed a beat, and we all reached out to help each 

other. 

Throughout those challenging times, Governor Perry’s resourcefulness and managerial skills were on display. Someone says are 

you ready for these jobs? Well, no one gave us a manual when we 

became Governor. We did not know everything that it entailed. We 

had to learn while we were there, and I will tell you one thing, you 

have to get up to speed quick. 

Senator Murkowski, I know you know from your family exactly 

what we are talking about. You know, so I have no doubt that Rick 

is going to not only do the job, he is going to excel in the job. That 

is evident in Rick’s achievements in diversifying the Texas energy 

portfolio, which is remarkable. It is the number one producer of 

crude oil and natural gas in the nation. 

The State of Texas has done the heavy lifting like West Virginia 

and so many of your states. People do not ask for much. They will 

go and do the heavy work, and they will continue to provide for 

this country and make us the super power that we are with the 

greatest economy in the world. 

I believe that Rick has the experience and the tenacity to serve 

in this Cabinet. Texas is the largest producer of crude oil, natural 

gas, and electricity in the nation. During his tenure, as Senator 

Cornyn has noted and knows him from on the campaign trail—and 

that is when you really learn people well, too—through 2000 and 

2013, air quality in Texas significantly improved, with major reducVerDate Sep 11 2014 01:09 Mar 02, 2017 Jkt 023616 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\E616.XXX E616

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
10 

tions in pollutions like ozone, nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide despite very strong population growth. 

I am going to let him talk to you about the growth they have had 

in Texas. Governor Perry cultivated wind energy development in 

the State of Texas, which is now the leader, and also solar coming 

on so strong. 

So when we talk about an all-in energy policy, we use everything 

we can to have dependable, reliable, and affordable energy and do 

it as clean as humanly possible. Hopefully, the rest of the world 

will take the lead. I believe that he possesses an all-of-the-above 

energy policy that will find the balance between the economy and 

the environment, which is so important. 

I do not need to tell any of you all sitting there and working with 

you every day, finding that balance is very difficult. Very difficult, 

but we try. I believe that Rick will be someone who will work with 

you. 

We enjoyed very much Secretary Ernie Moniz. He is a great man, 

and he worked across the aisle very well. I think you are going to 

find that reassurance from Rick Perry. 

I look forward to Rick serving. I think he is going to do a great 

job for not only the Department of Energy, but for all of us in 

America. 

With that, I am proud to support my friend, my colleague Rick 

Perry. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Manchin. 

We appreciate the comments of both of you gentlemen. Thank 

you for providing this introduction for Governor Perry. 

At this time, I would ask you, Governor Perry, to please come 

forward. Before asking for your opening statement, I am going to 

administer the oath, which is customary in hearings such as this 

one, and then I am going to ask you the customary three questions. 

At this time, if you could raise your hand, the rules of the committee, which apply to all nominees, require that they be sworn in 

connection with their testimony. Raising your right hand, do you 

solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to the 

Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources shall be the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. PERRY. I do. 

The CHAIRMAN. You may go ahead and be seated. Before you 

begin your statement, I am going to ask you three questions addressed to each nominee before this committee. 

The first is will you be available to appear before this committee 

and other congressional committees to represent departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the Congress? 

Mr. PERRY. I will, Senator. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are you aware of any personal holdings, investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict or create an appearance of such conflict should you be confirmed and assume the 

office to which you will be nominated by the President? 

Mr. PERRY. I have none, Senator. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are you involved or do you have any assets held 

in blind trusts? 

Mr. PERRY. I do not, Senator. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
11 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Governor Perry, you may proceed 

with your statement. Is your mic not on? 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Already the committee is being wonderfully helpful and supportive here. [Laughter.] 

STATEMENT OF HON. RICK PERRY, NOMINATED TO BE THE 

SECRETARY OF ENERGY 

Mr. PERRY. I have found nothing but that during my time in 

each of your offices, so I want to thank you for your hospitality. 

Madam Chairwoman Murkowski, I want to say to each of you my 

great thanks. Ranking Member Cantwell, thank you for your wisdom, your interaction. All the distinguished members of this committee, thank you for allowing me to come in and share with you, 

to let me listen to your concerns. 

It is a real honor for me to be here, to be President-elect Trump’s 

nominee for the Secretary of Energy. As I said, this process has 

been extremely informative and beneficial for me. The individual 

discussions that we’ve had in your offices and in some cases over 

the phone afterwards have been most important and, I will suggest 

to you, the most important aspect of this process for me. 

I especially want to thank Senator Murkowski and Senator Cantwell again. You both spoke passionately and very frankly about the 

priorities of this country and for the things that affect energy policy. You may be from different political parties, but as I noted during those meetings, what you have in common—both of you talked 

passionately about energy development, about the safety, about the 

reliability of nuclear stockpile, the vital role of our national labs, 

the critical importance of grid security, unique situations in each 

of your states. I might add both of them talked very passionately 

about those issues without the benefit of notes. You know well the 

challenges and the issues that are going to be facing the Secretary 

of Energy. If I am confirmed, obviously, I look forward to working 

with each one of you. 

Before I go further, I want to recognize an individual that’s already been recognized, but I want to add my very strong love and 

support to an individual that’s been my greatest advocate, a person 

who has been with every step of the way since a piano recital, Senator Franken, back in the late 1950s. You didn’t know I was a pianist. I was going to bring that to your attention, sir. And that’s 

obviously my wife, Anita. We’ve had quite a journey. I grew up on 

a dry land cotton farm 16 miles from the closest place that had a 

post office in a house that had just received electrification, received 

power from the Rural Electrification Agency, all the way to today 

as I’m being considered as the Secretary of Energy. 

With us today is also one of our pride and joys. That’s our daughter and her new husband, a naval officer, Brett Harrison. 

I arrive at this appointment with three decades of experience in 

elected office. I was a State Representative, I was the Agriculture 

Commissioner, I was the Lieutenant Governor and, for 14 years, 

the Governor of the State of Texas. During my three and a half 

terms as Governor, a state that created 2.2 million jobs, we added 

more people to our population rolls than any other state during 

that period of time. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
12 

If it were a standalone country, it would be the 12th largest 

economy in the world. We’re also the nation’s leading energy-producing state, not just in terms of oil and gas, as Senator Cornyn 

shared with you, but also wind energy. 

I have firsthand experience with the shale energy boom that revolutionized American energy with the state-led clean-up efforts to 

improve our environment as well. As Governor, I also learned the 

management skills that you gain, as Senator Manchin shared with 

you—Senator King, you certainly know this, and Senator Hoeven 

as well—of being a Governor. I have the executive experience necessary for leading an organization as large as the Department of 

Energy. 

From this experience, I learned how important energy is to the 

American economy and the great responsibility that we have to 

take care of what we’ve been given, to protect our citizens. I’m 

also—or I should say if I’m so fortunate as to be confirmed, this 

experience will inform my priorities at the Department. 

I am committed to keeping Americans safe. Nuclear security is 

the largest portion of the Department of Energy’s portfolio, its 

budget, if you will. I will be focused on continuing to protect and 

modernize the nation’s nuclear stockpile. As a former Air Force 

pilot during the days of the Cold War, I understand the deterrent 

value of our nuclear weapons system and the vital role they play 

in keeping the peace. 

Another aspect of security is ensuring the reliability of our electric grid against cybersecurity attacks. I’m committed to undertaking enhanced security measures where necessary and assisting 

with recovery efforts, if those are required, so that Americans can 

depend on a stable source of power. I’ll draw upon my years of experience as Governor of a coastal state in organizing emergency response personnel to handle disasters effectively and efficiently. 

If confirmed, I will advocate and promote energy in all forms, 

and that certainly includes our renewables. America has been 

blessed with vast natural resources and the technology to utilize 

them. 

I’m committed to helping provide stable, reliable, affordable, and 

secure sources of American energy. An America First energy strategy is important to create jobs and to grow the economy. I’m a 

major proponent of maintaining American leadership in the area of 

scientific inquiry. I support the academic and the Government mission of basic research, even when you may not see the results of 

that for a generation. 

Our scientists and our labs are the envy of the world. I look forward to visiting those labs this year and, if confirmed, learning 

even more about the unique work that they do. 

I have a strong record of aggressively courting leading scientific 

minds to bring innovation and job creation to my home state. Furthermore, I understand and am committed to the vital role of the 

Department of Energy that it maintains in environmental clean-up, 

specifically cleaning up nuclear waste that is the legacy of the Cold 

War. 

I have experience of dealing with the difficult challenges of transporting and storing low-level waste in my home State of Texas. I 

know this is a daunting task. You have 35 states that temporarily 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
13 

are housing waste from various nuclear programs. I look forward 

to working with the members of the committee to address the concerns many of you are hearing back home about nuclear waste facilities. 

In summary, I’m committed to modernizing our nuclear stockpile, 

promoting and developing American energy in all forms, advancing 

the Department’s critical science and technology mission, and carefully disposing of nuclear waste. 

Madam Chairwoman, if I may in my just limited time I have left, 

I have a couple of other issues that I’d like to touch upon. I have 

learned a great deal about the important work being done every 

day by the outstanding men and women of the Department of Energy. I’ve spoken several times to Secretary Moniz about the operation. I’ve spoken to his predecessors. 

If confirmed, my desire is to lead this agency in a thoughtful 

manner, surrounding myself with the expertise on the core functions of the Department. My past statements made over five years 

ago about abolishing the Department of Energy do not reflect my 

current thinking. In fact, after being briefed on so many of the vital 

functions of the Department of Energy, I regret recommending its 

elimination. 

If confirmed, I will enter this role excited and passionate about 

advocating and advancing the core missions of the DOE, drawing 

greater attention to the vital role played by the agency and the 

hard-working men and women who dedicate themselves in pursuit 

of these missions. 

Second, let me speak to the issue of climate change. I believe the 

climate is changing. I believe some of it is naturally occurring, but 

some of it is caused by manmade activity. The question is how we 

address it in a thoughtful way that doesn’t compromise economic 

growth, it affects the affordability of energy, or American jobs. 

In Texas, we’ve got a record of taking action to address environmental challenges, including climate change, and despite this fastgrowing population and, I might add, one of the largest petrochemical refining industries in the world, we saw our climate and 

our air improve during that period of time. 

We reduced carbon output by 17 percent, sulfur dioxide by 56 

percent, nitrogen oxide by 66 percent. We decommissioned 137 of 

these older, dirty burning plants, Senator. I mean, we did it by 

using incentives to move to new technology and clean technology, 

such as clean coal and carbon capture, and underground storage. 

In Houston, there is a billion-dollar Petra Nova plant that’s going 

to be opening soon using carbon capture sequestration. We’re also 

using that carbon that’s then injected into wells for secondary and 

tertiary recovery operations. I signed a law into place to retrofit 

some 15,000 engines under the Texas Emissions Reduction Plan, 

and we provided incentives for energy efficiencies. 

Our willingness to develop natural gas and tap shale formations 

has helped not only Texas reduce its carbon footprint, but other 

states and Mexico as well. But we truly advocated an all of the 

above strategy, reducing carbon emissions not just through development of cleaner fossil fuels, but through the development of renewable resources as well. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
14 

During my time as Governor, Texas took the national lead in 

wind energy development, now producing more wind, as Senator 

Cornyn reminded you of, than seven countries—excuse me, five 

countries. 

When it comes to climate change, I’m committed to making decisions based on sound science that also take into account the economic impact. We need an energy policy for the 21st century that 

is focused on promoting American energy in all forms. I am committed to working with this committee and the incoming Administration to do just that. 

Senators, this is a historic time for America and for the energy 

sector, and I would be honored to be a part of that. 

Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Perry follows:] 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
15 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 40 23616.001
16 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 41 23616.002
17 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 42 23616.003
18 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Governor Perry. 

I appreciate that you addressed two matters of concern based on 

statements that you had made previously, and I am sure that there 

will be further questions directed to that. 

I do think it is also very important to recognize the work that 

has gone forward within the State of Texas as you have worked to 

not only embrace a growing population, provide for jobs and economic opportunity, but at the same time working to address the 

issue of emissions and how you can bring on additional energy 

sources, both the traditional and our renewables. I think it is a 

good story and a story worth repeating. 

I want to focus my first round of questions on some Alaska-specific issues and appreciate your attention to them. Senator Cantwell mentioned that I am oft heard stating that America is an Arctic nation. We are an Arctic nation because of where Alaska sits, 

and we are proud that we are an Arctic nation. 

We have been struggling a little bit because there are some who, 

I think, view the Arctic as something in isolation, something that 

is frozen in time, almost a snow globe that should sit on a shelf, 

and we just should not touch it. But as Senator King knows, as the 

Co-Chairman of the Arctic Caucus with me, it is a very, very dynamic part of the world and a very dynamic part of our country. 

Understanding what is happening in the Arctic is imperative. 

Knowing the science, understanding the science is imperative, and 

we see much of this come out of the Department of Energy. We also 

recognize that there are incredible resources in the Arctic certainly 

that could enhance this country’s energy production if we are able 

to access them. 

So the commitment that I am seeking from you today is one 

where you would agree to work with me as well as the people of 

Alaska, and really the country as an Arctic nation, to bring industry, to bring science, to bring our local communities together to ensure that the U.S. can continue to be a leader in the Arctic as it 

relates to our energy production, as it relates to our science, as it 

relates to understanding all that is in front of us as an Arctic nation. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, you have my commitment, as do the members of the committee, to focus on the development of various regions. Obviously, you and I had a very lengthy conversation about 

the challenges that Alaska and the Native Alaskans face from the 

standpoint of both the economic impact, the environmental impact. 

It is a unique area of our country. 

The times I have visited there and the times that I will visit in 

the future will help develop even better an understanding of not 

only the challenges but the opportunities. I look at this position, if 

I am so fortunate as to be confirmed as the Secretary of Energy, 

to not only use the agency and the vast, the brilliance of our national labs. 

One of the things since 2012 in particular when I started spending time understanding our national labs, Texas A&M University, 

which is in my home state, was brought into a competition to operate Sandia Labs. At that particular point in time, I steeped myself 

in really finding out about these laboratories and the men and 

women that are in those laboratories, the extraordinary individVerDate Sep 11 2014 01:09 Mar 02, 2017 Jkt 023616 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\E616.XXX E616

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
19 

uals, the technology side and the science side of the Department of 

Energy. 

There are a fascinatingly large number of opportunities that we 

have on the economic side to make people’s quality of life, in your 

home state, for instance, better by bringing technologies that we 

may have an idea about today and some that we haven’t even 

dreamed up yet to the table, to commercialization to affect your 

state and this nation as a whole. 

So my record as Governor of Texas has been one to not only 

think outside of the box, do some things that people might not necessarily have associated with a Republican Governor, but to do it 

in a way that both sides of the aisle and people who really don’t 

much give a tinker’s dam about either political party but want to 

see results, and that’s what I will commit to you, to find those results that will have a positive impact on your citizens of Alaska 

and of this country. 

The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate that commitment, and I would commend to you that we can be that living laboratory. As wonderful 

as our national labs are, we have some extraordinary individuals 

with a Ph.D. in Arctic living, individuals that have lived there. 

Their families have been there for millennia. Relying on the indigenous peoples as well as working with our brilliant scientists in the 

labs and around the country is very important, but I look forward 

to spending more time with you speaking about these issues that 

are so pertinent to the development and the sustainability of an 

Arctic environment. 

Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Governor Perry, I liked several things that you had to say. There 

was one thing I definitely want to bring up that is very concerning. 

You said, as it related to an energy strategy, that we cannot ‘‘compromise economic growth.’’ 

Well, I guarantee you today we are compromising economic 

growth because of our overdependence on fossil fuels. It is having 

an impact on the natural resources economy in my state. It is having an effect on shellfish and the ability to seed. It is having an 

effect on the two most devastating fire seasons our state has had 

in the history of our state, burning up more than $2 billion worth 

of timber in just one Indian reservation. 

We have requested, my colleague Senator Collins and I, a GAO 

report that I expect to be out this year that will tell you exactly 

how much this is costing the U.S. Government, and I do not think 

the number will only be in the billions. It could be higher than 

that. 

So my question is, as you look at this agency, one of the things 

that I predicated my comments on is the level of science investment that needs to be made to continue this transition. The transition team sent around a document to the Department of Energy 

trying to identify DOE responsibilities related to climate change— 

staff attending conventions on climate change, things of that nature. 

Juxtaposed to the fact that we are getting hacked by the Russians and the Republicans in the House could not bother to pick 

up a cybersecurity bill and pass it, I am trying to understand what 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
20 

you, as Energy Secretary, will prioritize. I want to know your commitment to protecting these individuals and the scientific budget 

that goes along with them? And what is your willingness to invest 

in efforts to defend us—basically repudiating the comments that 

bring the hacking on—and instead make the commitment to pick 

up the mantle and defend our nation against Russian attacks? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, that questionnaire that you reference went 

out before I was ever selected as the nominee to sit before this committee. I didn’t approve it. I don’t approve of it. I don’t need that 

information. I don’t want that information. That is not how I manage. I have a history of working with people to find answers to 

challenges that face us. 

My commitment to you and the members of this committee is to 

obviously not only reach across political aisles, but also to work 

with the men and women, who I have an extraordinary amount of 

respect for, at the Department of Energy to find the solutions to 

these many challenges that we have, whether they are on the environment, whether they are economically focused, or otherwise. 

Senator CANTWELL. Do you plan to protect the science budget related to information on climate? 

Mr. PERRY. Your question again, Senator? 

Senator CANTWELL. Do you plan to protect the science research 

at DOE related to climate? 

Mr. PERRY. I’m going to protect all of the science whether it’s related to the climate or to the other aspects of what we’re going to 

be doing. You asked about cyber, and I will suggest to you DOE 

has a massive role to play in that. And it’s an area that I also have 

a history with, Senator, of working with the private sector, working 

with, in my case, State government entities. But the DOE will 

allow me to go to a new level, if you will, of engagement to find 

the ways to protect. 

And I’ll be honest with you, Senator, I don’t care who it is, what 

players, whether it’s a formal state or whether it is a group that 

is loosely associated, that if they are trying to penetrate into Americans’ lives, whether it’s private citizens or whether it’s at the highest levels of our Government, you will see me engaged in activities 

at the Department of Energy working across agencies, for that matter, working with the DoD at DARPA and our ARPA–E, with 

ARPA–I, all of those different agencies. 

I feel very comfortable that we have in our scientific laboratories, 

in our private sector operations, in the fertile minds of the men and 

women at the Department of Energy and the scientific side in particular, the technology and the ability to stop the cyber snooping 

or, for that matter, the intentions to do harm to Americans by penetrating into our electric grids, for instance. 

Senator CANTWELL. Yes, my time has expired. But just to clarify, 

you will protect the scientists and the science budget related to climate? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I am going to protect the men and women 

of the scientific community from anyone that would attack them, 

no matter what their reason may be, at the Department of Energy. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hoeven, and you will be followed by Senator Heinrich. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
21 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Governor Perry, 

it is great to see you. Thanks for your willingness to serve and indeed to your whole family. It is great to see you. Of course, you are 

part of that service as well, so thanks so much, and welcome. 

I appreciate in your opening statement you talked about all the 

different types of energy produced in Texas because we need an allof-the-above energy policy for our country. We need one that is focused on empowering states rather than a Federal one-size-fits-all, 

and I know that you understand that. 

I also appreciate the fact that you brought up that not only are 

you a leader in Texas in producing fossil fuels, like oil, and gas, 

and coal, but that you are also a leader in renewable energy. In my 

state, actually we produce a million barrels of oil a day. We are second only to Texas in oil production. But we also produce wind, and 

biofuels, and other renewables, and you talked about that. I want 

to commend you on that. 

I want to bring up something we talked about when you came 

in to see me, and that is that technology really is the way forward 

as we develop all these sources of energy, not only to produce more 

energy more cost effectively and more dependably, but also with 

better environmental stewardship. And you talked about 

PetroNovo, a project you are working on, to capture and sequester 

CO2. We have a project, the Great Plains Synfuels Plant, where we 

take lignite coal, the same coal you work with in Texas. We 

produce synthetic natural gas with that coal. We capture the CO2, and we put it in your fields for secondary oil recovery. 

We want to do more of that, and I know you understand that, 

and that is why I have asked you to come to North Dakota to see 

our Energy Environmental Research Center to see the Bakken. We 

talked about the shale play, the new technology there. But we have 

projects to capture CO2, clean coal technology, on both the front 

end, called alum cycle—PetroNovo is an example of that—and 

Project Tundra to retrofit plants as well. 

We need you to come out there and help us continue to develop 

and commercialize that technology, and I am asking you for your 

commitment to do that because it is something that does not just 

benefit our states. It benefits our country. Beyond that, as other 

countries develop this technology, it really is a global type of solution. So talk about that for a minute and your commitment to help 

make that happen. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, thank you. You do have my commitment to 

not only continue to work on those technologies to be commercialized, but I will come to your home state at the first possible moment. I think I am going to be spending a lot of time traveling to 

your states over the course of the next—— 

Senator HOEVEN. Well, how about West Virginia? Any chance 

you will be going to West Virginia? Just wondering. 

Mr. PERRY. I think West Virginia thought I was an honorary citizen over there for a while over the last few years. I have been in 

Morgantown lots of times. 

But back to your salient point, Senator. I am a big believer that 

one of the reasons we have a responsibility to fund our basic research, and a lot of times we do not know what the outcome of that 

is going to be, we hope we know how it is going to turn out. But, 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
22 

Senator Risch, it may be a generation down the road on basic research. 

But with our applied research, we have a lot better idea about 

how it reaches fruition, how it can be commercialized. I saw that 

as the Governor of Texas. We helped create a fund, and, again, I 

do not get confused about the difference between Federal Government and State Government. You and I are both strong supporters 

of federalism, but my life’s experiences are going to affect the way 

that I operate as the Secretary of Energy if I am confirmed. 

One of those happens to be about investing in the technology 

that can be commercialized to improve people’s quality of life. One 

of the things that Senator Sanders and I talked about in his office 

was that, you know, someday I hope that he and I and then a host 

of other individuals can stand up together with technology that 

came out of the Department of Energy that we are able to sell to 

the Chinese to start making the environment in China better. I 

mean, that is the potential that is there. 

My home state and your home state were virtually changed in 

a life-changing way with hydraulic fracturing, and that technology 

had its genesis at the Department of Energy. So the concept of 

using that agency, whether it is on cybersecurity, whether it is on 

new ways to use the natural resources that we have, and the management of that. 

I mean, one of the things that I bring to you is my 14 years of 

managing that 12th largest economy in the world from the standpoint of efficiently and effectively putting programs into place and 

seeing as a result of that action. My commitment, Senator, is that 

on a daily basis I will have men and women who I trust, who have 

the expertise and have the authority to be able to implement these 

programs that can affect the citizens, not just of your state, but 

hopefully the citizens of this world. 

Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Governor. I think that is a good description of the opportunity that we have, and I look forward to 

working with you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Heinrich. 

Senator HEINRICH. Governor, welcome. As I see it, one of the 

most critical jobs at DOE is the Administrator of the National Nuclear Safety Administration (NNSA). I have been deeply concerned 

about press reports which indicate that this key leadership post, 

literally that the steward of our stockpile might be vacant during 

the presidential transition. Has the question of interim leadership 

at NNSA been resolved? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, thank you. I, like you, have a concern about 

an orderly transition. The nuclear stockpile in our country is a bit 

different than almost anything else that is out there, so having 

men and women in place and a structure in place to give confidence and a surety, predictability to the people of this country 

and to the men and women of this committee is very important. 

That position obviously is one that has presidential nomination 

oversight. I have sat down with the general, General Klotz, and 

had a good conversation with him, and have sent the message that 

it would certainly be my desire to have that continuity. It is in the 

President-elect’s office now, and hopefully we will see that type of 

continuity in those very important places. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
23 

Senator HEINRICH. I want to thank you for your efforts on that. 

I think it would serve the new Administration well. We have about 

25 hours and 20 minutes to figure this thing out. NNSA, unlike 

other agencies because of the way the law was written by my predecessor, Senator Pete Domenici, you have to appoint those positions 

from people who have served 90 of the 365 days. So, the pool is 

limited. I think we all want to see DOE succeed. We all want to 

see NNSA succeed, too. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you for your efforts on that. 2016, the 

warmest year our planet has experienced in human history. It is 

the third year in a row to break that dubious record. You stated 

in your testimony that you quote, ‘‘believe the climate is changing.’’ 

This should not be about belief. In my view, it should be about 

data. It should be about evidence. It should be about peer-reviewed 

scientific results. 

Stepping back from just climate, I just want to ask you broadly 

will you commit to using science as your guide when making policy 

at DOE? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, my record as the Governor of your neighboring state clearly shows that that is the case, and I will give you 

a couple of examples. Relying upon data when people’s lives are in 

jeopardy was one of the things that I became very well known for. 

I want to speak about hurricanes and the effect that they can have 

upon—— 

At 5:00 one morning I received a phone call that a particular 

storm’s track was going to go directly up the Houston ship channel 

as a Category Five storm. 

Senator HEINRICH. I remember. 

Mr. PERRY. And the devastation was massive. We are talking 

about over a million people dead. Not a million people impacted. A 

million people dead. Those are sobering moments in an individual’s 

life. At that particular point in time, we started a massive evacuation of Harris County in the Houston area. That data happened 

to be, and fortunately, wrong for that particular storm. But the 

point is I made decisions based on the most sound science that I 

could find. 

Senator HEINRICH. I want to thank you, and I know that the 

Chair is going to cut me off if I do not use my time wisely here. 

But I want to say on behalf of the nearly 25,000 New Mexicans 

who work at Sandia, Los Alamos, who work at WIPP, at NNSA, 

and DOE, I want to thank you for your statement as well, and regret for calling for the elimination of DOE. I am going to make it 

here for the second round. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator HEINRICH. And we will get to some of those other 

issues—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator HEINRICH [continuing]. That I am looking forward to 

hearing from you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. 

Senator Barrasso. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
24 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Governor 

Perry, congratulations again. Thanks so much for coming to visit 

and listening to my concerns about the Department. 

I would like to ask you about the Department’s so-called barters 

or transfers that we talked about of excess uranium, which is certainly a component within the Department of Energy. These are 

the transactions in which the Department trades some of its excess 

uranium for services that then the Department gets for contractors. 

We have seen a lot of this under the Obama Administration. 

The Department uses this uranium because it refused to ask 

Congress for the appropriations to pay for the contractors. But in 

the process, the Department has in the past violated a number of 

Federal laws. It has also flooded the market with tens of millions 

of pounds of uranium. As a result the people that are out there producing the uranium in Wyoming, in Texas, and in other states 

have ended up laying off workers, canceling projects. If confirmed, 

will you consider suspending the Department’s so-called barters of 

excess uranium until you can at least review the policy? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will commit to you that we will follow the 

law. As you clearly demonstrated to me in your office, at this particular point in time there is some real question of whether the law 

is being followed. I will spend the time becoming very familiar not 

only with the law, but the impact that is happening. 

You made reference to one of the reasons, from your perspective, 

that it is happening is because of the budgetary process. And, 

again, during my 30 years of public service, both as a young State 

Representative on the Appropriations Committee and then obviously as the Governor of Texas who had to put forward a budget 

every two years, I understand the budgetary process rather well, 

and the negotiations that go on, and the prioritization that goes on. 

So hopefully you will see that type of activity from the Department of Energy from the standpoint of very appropriately engaged 

budgetary processes where you do not have to see programs that 

are important to you and the members of this agency being affected 

because of bad management or because of budgetary negotiations 

that maybe were not the smoothest that we would hope for. 

Senator BARRASSO. Well, and I would appreciate if as part of that 

commitment you would meet with America’s uranium producers 

and essentially come up with a long-term management plan of excess uranium prior to authorizing any additional barters. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, we will work very closely with you and the 

members of the committee to do just that. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. Thank you very much. I want to 

turn to liquefied natural gas, LNG. We talked about that. Certainly 

a lot of it from Wyoming, a lot with Texas. Since 2010, the Department’s permitting process for LNG exports has been, I would say, 

unpredictable. Last Congress some of us here on this committee in 

a bipartisan way, including Senator Heinrich who was just asking 

questions, he and I and others introduced legislation to expedite 

the Department’s permitting process. This committee, the entire 

Senate, passed our legislation, with overwhelming bipartisan support. The House passed a nearly identical piece of legislation with, 

again, bipartisan support. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
25 

So, if confirmed, will you commit to acting on the pending LNG 

export applications, because they are all piled up there, and do it 

in a timely manner? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will follow the laws. I will follow the clear 

instruction that I see as Congress goes forward, obviously working 

with the Administration. My understanding from having conversations with President-elect Trump is that he truly is an all-of-theabove supporter of American energy and to support, develop, and 

promote that energy resource, liquefied natural gas being one of 

those. 

Senator BARRASSO. Well, we are going to reintroduce the legislation, and I would hope that you would work with me and with others in a bipartisan way, so not just to ensure that you, but your 

successors also, those that come after you, act on LNG export applications in a timely matter, because we have such an abundance of 

energy, as we have talked in this country. 

Putin uses energy as a weapon, a geopolitical weapon. We are an 

energy force in this country, and I believe that we should be acting 

like the international force that we are with energy. So if I could 

ask your commitment to help with legislation so that your successors would also follow the law. 

Mr. PERRY. I will be available to work with you on any given day, 

sir. 

Senator BARRASSO. Thank you. Congratulations again. Thank 

you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Barrasso. 

Senator Cortez Masto. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. Governor Perry, congratulations on your nomination. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Welcome, to you and your family, to the 

committee, and thank you for taking the time to sit with me and 

talk with me. I suspect you know what the first question is right 

out of the gate. 

So, this year, Senator Heller and I introduced the Nuclear Waste 

Informed Consent Act, and that requires the Secretary of Energy 

to receive consent from any state considered for a high-level nuclear waste repository before proceeding with development. In 2011 

at the Presidential Debate in Las Vegas, you came out in favor of 

consent-based siting in regards to Yucca Mountain, arguing that if 

Nevadans did not want it—and I will tell you right now 58 percent 

do not want it—then they should not have it, and that people of 

Nevada ought to have their final say. Do you still support consentbased siting for Yucca Mountain? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, as you know, in 2011 I was a sitting governor, and I made a statement about federalism. I still believe in 

it strongly. I think it is important for the Secretary of Energy, and 

my role if I am so fortunate to be confirmed, to have that good 

working relationship with as many governors as I can and the citizens of those states. I happen to also be a great believer of following the statutes and laws. So, if you pass such, not only will I 

salute it, I will happily salute it. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Well, let me ask you this because I know 

you have a relationship with our governor who just this week came 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
26 

out in his State of the State emphatically stating that any attempt 

to resurrect the ill-conceived Yucca Mountain Project will be met 

with relentless opposition and maximum resources. Also, saying 

that, ‘‘Continuing down a path that seeks to force this unsafe and 

unwanted project on Nevada is a waste of time and money, and 

only gets the country further away from solving its nuclear waste 

problem.’’ In fact, on May 8th, 2014 on Meet the Press, you criticized a one-size-fits-all policy out of Washington, D.C. and that is 

what we have here. 

Can you commit that you will continue to work with the Governor, with the people of the State of Nevada, with everyone who 

has concerns about the safety and health of siting a high-level nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain, and particularly those in southern 

Nevada who will be harmed by it, who have concerns about it, including those who live in Summerlin? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I am very aware that this is an issue that 

this country has been flummoxed by for 30 years, and we have 

spent billions of dollars on this issue. After I was asked to serve 

as the Secretary of Energy, I thought it would probably be wise to 

pick up the phone or meet face-to-face with the two senators from 

Nevada and the governor, as you know that I am personal friends 

with, and to make sure that you all were still pretty much on the 

same page of the hymn book. I know it does not surprise you at 

all, you are. 

I respect that position. I understand where you all are coming 

from. I am going to work very closely with you and the members 

of this committee to find the answers to these challenges that we 

have. And hopefully this is the beginning of seeing real movement, 

real management of an issue that I think no longer can sit and be 

used as a political football, one that must be addressed. I think we 

can find a solution both in the interim and the long-term of our nuclear waste. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Well, Governor, and I appreciate your 

comments. I am going to hold you to your word because here today 

you said you rely on data when people’s lives are at stake, and that 

you make decisions based on sound science. I am hoping in this instance you are going to do the same thing. 

I know my time is running out here, but I look forward to another round to ask additional questions. But thank you for your 

comments. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Cassidy. 

Senator CASSIDY. Hey, Governor. How are you? 

Mr. PERRY. Fine, Doctor. 

Senator CASSIDY. Listen, this is something that pertains to both 

our states, and there is a confluence. We have the Obama Administration and Breitbart News on the same page, so I want to ask 

your opinion on this. 

There is something in Louisiana called the Lake Charles Methanol Plant, and the Administration just approved some loan guarantees, about half the project. There is still $1.8 billion, I think, in 

private capital. What this does is it takes petcoke, and it takes 

from the petcoke everything, including carbon dioxide. As opposed 

to releasing the carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, it catches it 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
27 

and sends it to East Texas for enhanced oil recovery—we know how 

it works technology, but bringing it to scale. 

Now, your Administration will be taking over, but, again, this is 

something that both the right and the left have seemed to have embraced. Knowing that you may not know the particulars, but just 

in concept the idea that there would be a loan guarantee that 

would both create American jobs but also capture carbon dioxide to 

enhance oil recovery. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, thank you for giving me the opportunity to 

share with you that I do not know the deep particulars of this. On 

the surface, it appears to make sense. Your observation that it is 

supported by both sides of the aisle would seem to make that a relatively easy decision to continue to go forward with. 

With that said, I have got that that history of investing, working 

with the members of the legislature in the case of my time as the 

Texas Governor, the Speaker, the Lieutenant Governor, a panel of 

experts that referred these projects to us for approval or not. That 

history, I hope, will give you comfort that I am a big believer that 

we have a role to play both in basic research obviously, but also 

in that applied research, to bring new technologies, new commercialization, new economic development opportunities to this country. 

You have my commitment to take a look at that project and get 

to know it firsthand, but my instinct is that that is the type of programs that the Department of Energy should be engaged with that 

have really concrete, successful end results. 

Senator CASSIDY. Let me ask you this because, I am sorry, I was 

in another hearing. I understand you have been speaking about 

Texas’ record of both expanding jobs as well as decreasing emissions. One thing my office has been looking at is this direct relationship between worldwide manufacturing moving to China and 

worldwide growth emissions. As one example, since 2004 to 2013, 

China’s share of global manufacturing has risen from one-twelfth 

to one-fourth and has gone from being the 19th emitter of greenhouse gases to number one. 

I have told folks if President Trump is successful at returning 

manufacturing to the United States where we will have environmental standards perhaps capturing greenhouse gases, certainly 

SOX and NOX, which the Chinese do not seem to bother with, as 

well as using clean natural gas, nuclear, and renewables as opposed to their electricity feedstock being coal, we will have more of 

an impact upon global greenhouse gas emissions than any other arrangement. 

Knowing that you commented on that previously, but I am sorry 

I was not here, I would just like your thoughts on that. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Senator, you know I am a bit of a competitor. Governor Jerry Brown used to not be happy with me showing 

up in California to recruit businesses from California to Texas, and 

maybe I might have showed up in one of your states as well. 

[Laughter.] 

But competition is a good thing. I think the competition that can 

occur with the United States putting tax and regulatory policies 

into place to bring manufacturing back onshore is a good thing. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
28 

I also think it will have the added benefit, Senator, of forcing 

China to make some changes in how they do their business. As I 

said earlier about taking a number of the senators here to sell technology to China. I mean, all of that makes ultimate good sense to 

me that not only do we retrieve that back into the United States, 

because we know we can. This is not theory. This is not talk. 

I have seen the 12th largest economy in the world lower carbon 

dioxide emissions by 17 percent, SOX by 66 percent, and NOX by 

58 percent. That is real reductions that make a difference in the 

environment of the world. If we could see that type of technology 

and that type of effort, that type of competitive pressure, if you 

will, in places like China, then we have served the citizens of this 

world well. 

Senator CASSIDY. Thank you. I yield back. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Stabenow. 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome and congratulations, Governor Perry. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator STABENOW. And welcome to your family as well. I had 

a chance to talk with you in my office about basic research and applied research on a number of different fronts. I appreciated what 

you said then as well as what you are saying now in terms of supporting both efforts to bring these new technologies to commercialization, as well as doing basic research. I should tell you in 

talking to the presidents at universities in Michigan, they have indicated that your universities in Texas have indicated your support 

for these important efforts in basic research and so on. 

So, a couple of things. I talked with you about the facility for 

where isotope beams at Michigan State University, a 10-year construction project that is going to end up with the world’s most powerful radioactive beam facility that will advance new national defense and environmental technology as well as medical technologies. We need to have your continued support for that. We are 

in the middle of 10 years of Federal funding, Federal/State funding, 

and I would like to ask you if you will support our efforts to bring 

this to completion. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, as you and I, and I really enjoyed your intellectual engagement, an education for me on that particular project. 

Those are exactly the types of both basic research that then turn 

into applied research, that then turn into quality of life things that 

I had great joy and honor to be involved with while I was the Governor of Texas. 

We went from no manufacturing of drugs in the State of Texas 

prior—well, of legal drugs—— 

[Laughter.] 

Prior to the start of 2000 to 10 years later being able to see vaccines manufactured in that state to address pandemic events. 

Those are the types of things that change the world, and that 

project of which you shared has that same potential—— 

Senator STABENOW. Yes. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. To literally change the world in a powerful and in a positive way. So, the idea that I am kind of 

foundationally invested in that type of thinking is there. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
29 

I look forward to learning more about it, to coming up and visiting this site with you, and then prioritizing both with this committee, with the Congress, and the Administration that this is the 

type of programs that not only we should be engaged with, that can 

make a difference, a real difference, in the quality of life, for the 

economic life, or hopefully both—— 

Senator STABENOW. Sure. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. As we go forward. 

Senator STABENOW. I appreciate that. And let me take another 

step, which is Department of Energy has played a very important 

role with manufacturers in public/private partnerships on a number of fronts that are very, very important. I mean, the manufacturing sector accounts for 25 percent of our energy usage. When we 

look in transportation, the largest challenge today—no surprise— 

is trucks, is big vehicles. 

DOE has a Super Truck Program because we know that in terms 

of research and technology development, if we really want to decrease carbon emissions and be able to decrease energy use, you 

have to go where it is, which is in trucks and so on. There is a very 

important area where the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy has funded a number of what we call manufacturing 

hubs. One is the Institute for Advanced Composite Manufacturing 

Innovation. 

Just as we look at things like an ad for an American company 

here. Ford with their F–150 series, the F–150 truck has gone to 

aluminum composites, taken 700 pounds out of the weight of the 

truck which affects their fuel economy. So, these are all incredibly 

important. 

What I am concerned about is this morning, because I believe 

you that you support these projects. But my concern is that we are 

now hearing in the press that the White House and the transition 

team, using Heritage Foundation budget proposals, are proposing, 

I would call it, to roll back funding for nuclear physics, advanced 

scientific computing research, to 2008 levels; eliminating the Office 

of Electricity; eliminating the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, which I am just now talking about; and scrapping 

the Office of Fossil Energy, which focuses on technologies to reduce 

carbon dioxide emissions. 

And so, square this for me. I mean, how do you see your role? 

You are coming into a new position where we are talking about 

massive cuts in the kinds of things that you have advocated for, 

you supported in your role as Governor, that are critical to the future of the economy, and lowering emissions, and creating more efficiencies. If we are going to really do all of that, it needs to be the 

kinds of things that you have been talking about this morning. Yet 

we just have a new statement that we are talking about massive 

cuts in the Energy Department. 

The CHAIRMAN. Governor Perry, Senator Stabenow’s time has expired, so if you can just respond very briefly so that we can get to 

other members. 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I think all of us, having been in the business that we have been in for the years that we have, know that 

there are always a lot of statements sometimes. Just because it is 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
30 

on the Internet, it is not true. I cannot answer whether that is true 

or not. What I can tell you is that I know that from my perspective 

that moving America forward on the supercomputing side, for instance, exascale, is incredibly important for this country’s security. 

I have no questions at all about whether or not the Trump Administration is going to be very supportive of keeping America strong 

and free, and the technologies that come out of DOE in many cases 

are going to play a very, very important role. 

I will be an advocate for that. I will be in the room advocating 

for these types of things. I am not going to tell you I am going to 

be 1,000 percent successful in that, but I can assure you, and the 

people who know me and who have worked with me know of my 

commitment to making sound science, economic science, connected 

together because at the end of the day they make great economic 

sense, and it makes great quality of life sense. 

Senator STABENOW. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Daines. 

Senator DAINES. Governor Perry, welcome. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes. 

Senator DAINES. I have a great view here. I get to see your beautiful family behind you. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you. It is my best day’s work, sir. [Laughter.] 

Senator DAINES. Yes, sir, and I will say if I was in your chair, 

I would make sure I had Marcus Luttrell guarding my six as well. 

So, it is great to have an American hero. 

Mr. PERRY. And his twin brother, Morgan, over here on the other 

side. 

Senator DAINES. We were wondering about that. I tell you what, 

you can tell they are related, there are a lot of similarities. 

Mr. PERRY. Just in case. [Laughter.] 

Senator DAINES. Anyway, I have complete confidence truly in 

that you are going to work to restore this balance that I think the 

American people seek between fossil fuel and renewable energy investments and regulation. As they probably would say in Texas 

and we say in Montana, it is a blend of George Strait and John 

Denver. That is a melody that we need right now in this nation, 

and I think that has been lacking, frankly, in President Obama’s 

Energy Department, and you will, I think, restore that balance. So 

thank you for considering this nomination. 

Governor Perry, in our meeting we discussed what is going on in 

a small town in Montana called Colstrip. This plant is the lifeblood 

of this little town of 2,000 people. Seven hundred sixty-seven directly are employed by that operation. Colstrip generates enough 

electricity to power one and a half million American homes. 

As you know, units one and two in Colstrip are scheduled to 

close due to environmental litigation, and they are under these job 

killing—this EPA Power Plan. The other two units are also at risk. 

In fact, there was a study done at the University of Montana, and 

they said that the EPA’s Power Plan would kill 7,000 jobs in our 

state, $500 million in lost revenues, $140 million in lost tax revenues. We have a legislature right now that is meeting in Montana 

that once had a $300 million surplus, and now the governor and 

the legislature are trying to sort out how do you make ends meet 

because the surplus is gone. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
31 

Montana, with the closure of these plants, will go from being a 

net energy exporter to now having to become an energy importer. 

I think that is a tragedy. These are regulations coming out of the 

EPA, but I do believe the Department of Energy under your leadership could do big things to protect its future. 

As we discussed, the Crow Tribe in Montana, Governor, they 

have a 35 percent unemployment rate right now. If we lose those 

coal jobs on that reservation, that unemployment rate goes north 

of 80 percent, and this is poverty in rural America. In fact, we had 

an energy conference here about a year ago, and we had some protesters that came, and they had big signs that said, ‘‘Keep it in the 

ground,’’ referencing coal. Little 12-year-old Evelyn Old Coyote, the 

daughter of the Chairman of the tribe, quietly walked up to those 

protesters and said, ‘‘You know, if you keep it in the ground, my 

people are going to starve.’’ That is what is at stake right now. 

I am concerned that if this Administration does not do anything 

to protect our existing coal fleet, like Colstrip, many Montanans 

are going to lose their jobs. Our state will lose its tax revenues, and 

our grid will become less secure and less reliable. 

I said in our meeting that I would like your personal attention 

to this issue, and I do appreciate your commitment. I know you are 

going to be traveling a lot when you are the new Secretary of Energy, but I appreciate your commitment to come visit these communities and see it firsthand. 

Some of the ways to protect our existing fleet and our baseload 

of energy are to facilitate research that can prove efficiencies at our 

coal plants and investment in carbon capture utilization storage 

technology. I am concerned that we have a real choice. We can lead 

in America with this technology, or we will cede this to the Chinese. 

So, my question is, will the DOE support investments in carbon 

capture to use storage as well as other policies that will keep 

America’s coal fleet running, including Colstrip, so we can continue 

to use this most valuable resource? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I look forward to coming back to Montana 

and spending some quality time with the men and women who are 

being affected by the decisions that we collectively have made in 

this city that affect their lives. You have very eloquently and passionately shared with this committee and with the world the challenges that we have. 

I remember well a decade and a half ago when there was an individual who traveled the country, and I think made a pretty good 

living, giving a speech about peak oil, that it was all—we are done. 

He did not know what the answer was for the alternative, but he 

basically said we are done. But because of technology that came out 

the DOE, hydraulic fracturing, the world has been changed and the 

world has been given a resource that we have been able to use to 

help lower the carbon emissions. I am talking about natural gas. 

I mean, I will suggest that sometimes we get siloed in our thinking, and we go it as either/or. And so, you know, coal is bad, leave 

it in the ground, when the fact is I am certain, I feel positive that 

some scientist, some incredibly capable man or woman either at 

the DOE or in one of our universities or laboratories, has technology to be able to use coal in a way that is friendly, that is approVerDate Sep 11 2014 01:09 Mar 02, 2017 Jkt 023616 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\E616.XXX E616

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
32 

priate, and that can keep that little girl’s family fed and warm and 

with a hope for the future. 

To me that is what we are all about. We signed up for this to 

make a difference in people’s lives, and you have passionately 

talked about that today. That is my commitment not just to you 

but to everyone in this room and on this committee that I am going 

to do everything I can to push the envelope, to think outside of the 

box, to come up with the answers to the challenges that we face 

as a country. 

That is obviously one of them, and that is a big one, making sure 

that the people out in Hanford know that that is being managed, 

and they are—and they are starting to see some things really happen out there. Giving them hope that it is not just going to be another 30 years of the Federal Government kicking the can down 

the road. That is what I am committed to, Senator. 

Senator DAINES. Thank you, Governor. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Governor. 

Senator Hirono. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair, and aloha to you, 

Governor, and your family. 

Mr. PERRY. Hello. 

Senator HIRONO. Fortunately, you and I had more than five minutes when we met, but unfortunately, I only have five minutes. So 

I framed my questions to elicit ‘‘yes’’’ or ‘‘no’’ responses from you, 

and I hope that you will stay with that kind of a format. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, ma’am. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you so much. Governor, you have talked 

about pursuing an all-of-the-above energy strategy. As Senator Stabenow just mentioned, and, of course I also am aware that just this 

morning we learned that the Trump transition team intends to propose eliminating the Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of Electricity, scrap the Office 

of Fossil Energy, which focuses on technology to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and make other massive cuts to your Department. 

It is hard to see how we can pursue and all-of-the-above strategy 

if so much of the Department’s all-of-the-above capabilities are 

eliminated. My question is, do you support these cuts, yes or no? 

Mr. PERRY. Well, Senator, maybe they will have the same experience I had and forget that they said that, but—— 

[Laughter.] 

Senator HIRONO. We are counting on you. We are counting on 

you to educate the incoming President. Moving on. [Laughter.] 

You also stated, ‘‘Having educated myself, I believe the climate 

is changing. And that when it comes to climate change I am committed to making decisions based on sound science, and that also 

takes into account economic impact.’’ We have heard a lot this 

morning about making sure that there is a balance between what 

we need to do with regard to our energy future. 

I want to ask you, does the economic impact include the costs of 

not doing anything to address climate change? 

Mr. PERRY. Absolutely, and it is the reason—— 

Senator HIRONO. Great. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. I took those—— 

Senator HIRONO. Yes. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
33 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. Those steps I took as the Governor to 

lower those emissions, Senator. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. Hawaii, as recently as 2006, relied 

on imported fossil fuel for 92 percent of its energy needs. So research, technical assistance, and grants, particularly the State Energy Program, from the U.S. Department of Energy have been instrumental in supporting Hawaii’s shift towards locally-produced 

renewable energy. In fact, Hawaii has the most ambitious renewable energy goals in the entire country because we want to become 

a hundred percent energy self-sufficient for electricity by 2045. Can 

the State of Hawaii count on your continued support from the Department of Energy as it seeks to become energy independent and 

a leader in the clean energy economy? 

Mr. PERRY. Yes. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. Finally. 

Senator HIRONO. I am very troubled by recent news reports that 

the President-elect’s transition team has not asked the Administrator and Deputy Administrator of the National Nuclear Security 

Administration, NNSA, to extend their service past January 20th. 

This would be the first time in NNSA’s 16-year history that senior 

leadership will not be kept possibly on for the incoming Administration. I know that you said you wanted a smooth transition, but 

I am wondering whether this is an area that we can afford to not 

keep these people on. Will you commit to a continuity of staff to 

ensure the Department of Energy’s ability to protect and manage 

our nation’s nuclear weapons stockpile? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I am not concerned that the continuity of 

protecting our stockpiles is going to be in place. As I said earlier, 

we have sent the message. We have interviewed the existing staff. 

I do not think anyone would sit here—I hope not anyway—and say 

you will keep every person that there is over there without interviewing them, having interaction. 

I will suggest to you my 14 years of governing Texas and being 

the CEO of that 12th largest economy in the world, I know something about identifying good talent, putting them into place, and I 

will interview appropriately. But as I shared with Senator Heinrich, the Administration has the final decision on a presidential appointment. We are quite comfortable that that process—— 

Senator HIRONO. Well, Governor, you managed to get away from 

a ‘‘yes’’’ or ‘‘no’’ answer. Thank you very much. 

Mr. PERRY. Well, that one I cannot give you a ‘‘yes’’’ or ‘‘no’’ on. 

Senator HIRONO. I understand. I also understand that one of the 

reasons Texas is a success widespread adoption of renewable energy, particularly wind power, is the goals that the State set in 

1999. As I mentioned, Hawaii has a similar goal. In 2012, I called 

for the creation of a national renewable energy standard because 

setting a goal, as you well know in Texas, gives the private sector 

the certainty to make the kinds of investments needed to meet the 

goals set by a large state like Texas. Would you support a national 

renewable energy standard, provided that it can achieve baseline— 

their achievable baseline standards—— 

Mr. Perry. Senator—— 

Senator HIRONO [continuing]. Or national standard? 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
34 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. You know my—you know my position on 

federalism and that one-size-fits-all, except in gym socks. 

Senator HIRONO. Okay. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. Generally does not work that well. 

Senator HIRONO. That is fair. So, if you are going to leave it up 

to the states, would you at least continue to support states’ efforts 

in these areas? 

Mr. PERRY. Absolutely. I will talk to any governor about the wisdom of using their universities, using their private sector, using the 

Department of Energy where it fits to come up with the technologies that moves forward their states’ positions from the standpoint of renewables, where it fits in, where it makes sense. I will 

be happy to give them the roadmap on how to do that. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you. My time is up. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gardner. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Madam Chair. And Governor 

Perry, thank you very much. Welcome to the Energy Committee. 

And thanks for—— 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Governor, or, excuse me, Senator. 

Senator GARDNER [continuing]. The patience to go through this 

process. Thanks to your family for being here to support you and 

your commitment to public service as well. 

I want to just follow up a little bit on what Senator Daines 

talked about. I think it is very important that we recognize there 

are places across the country, like Naturita, Colorado; Nucla, Colorado; Meeker, Colorado; Craig, Colorado; Delta, Colorado. These 

are places—Montrose, Colorado—that a lot of people have or may 

never hear of, but there are places that have been dramatically affected by our government, places that have been hurt by over regulations. They are places that I visited, coal miners and workers 

who are out of work because of a government that is faceless to 

them but had real consequences at the dinner table. 

Your job at the Department of Energy is not necessarily to say 

here is a coal regulation, here is an oil regulation, here is a wind 

regulation, because that is not all of what the Department of Energy does. In fact, there may be no role for Department of Energy 

in certain of those areas. But certainly the EPA has affected greatly the Western Slope of Colorado, the eastern plains. Certainly, the 

Department of the Interior and our public lands have affected the 

jobs which can be created as part of our all-of-the-above energy 

strategy and policy in this country. Even the Department of Agriculture, the Forest Service, has affected our ability to produce affordable energy, whether it is the Pawnee National Grasslands in 

eastern Colorado or perhaps areas in the Western Slope. 

I would encourage you, as you sit in the Cabinet and you talk 

about the goals for this country, that when we talk about the impact that this government has, know that one agency has a tremendous impact on the work that another agency is doing, and 

that it should not just be the EPA that is out against this part of 

Colorado, and the Interior Department that is affecting this area, 

that they all together layer up in a big way that has real impact 

on the people of our country. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
35 

Thank you for your commitment to work through those tangled 

webs of government overreach that has put people out of work and 

hurt people in my State of Colorado. We all recognize the need to 

protect our great outdoors. We spend a tremendous amount of time 

in this committee talking about how we can protect our great outdoors, making sure that it is better tomorrow than it is today. But 

we also have to recognize that those people in Nucla, those people 

in Naturita, those people in Montrose cannot all be trained to install solar panels in Meeker, but they have to do work right at 

home as well. 

I want to talk a little bit, you and I have had a lot of discussions 

about an all of-the-above energy policy. It is extremely important 

for this country. Colorado is, if you look at the statistics, we are 

the seventh ranked state in terms of crude oil production. We are 

the sixth ranked in natural gas, I think, and over the past couple 

years, we were even higher than that. We are also the 10th ranked 

in production in installed wind capacity. We have 14 wind manufacturing facilities, at the leading edge of turbine manufacturing, 

blade manufacturing, tower manufacturing. It is incredible to see 

what we have done with an all-of-the-above energy policy in Colorado. 

That being said, I want to make sure that we keep an all-of-theabove energy successful policy successful. One key component of 

that is National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado. This is 

a nearly a $1 billion economic impact nationwide of the country. 

For every $1 that is invested at the Department of Energy through 

NREL secures about $5 additional dollars in private sector funding. 

It is a facility that is known for its commercialization, taking 

projects from the lab to the marketplace, ready to be a part of our 

diverse energy sector. 

After you have traveled to Hawaii—I am sure that may be the 

first state on the committee that you visit—I hope that you will 

come to Colorado and visit the National Renewable Energy Laboratory to see the important work they are doing there. Please know 

you have an early invitation to visit NREL, and I would like your 

commitment to working with me to understand the work that is 

done and how it is a part of our all-of-the-above energy mix. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Senator, I look forward to coming, to visiting 

as we—I will not dwell on this, but you were very enlightening to 

me from the standpoint of what they do there. Those are obviously 

the types of technology, the applied research that can then be commercialized that I think we have a role to play, and we should be 

engaging in. So, I look forward to a long visit there. 

Senator GARDNER. Thank you. And obviously some of the work 

they are doing at NREL deals with grid modernization efforts. The 

supercomputers that they have at NREL and the national laboratories across the country focus on grid modernization, energy efficiency. The Energy Systems Integration Facility, which is located 

at NREL, a research center that both private industry and the public sector is using to modernize the electrical grid, provides basically a central hub for integration of private and public research 

efforts on wind, solar, biofuels, and transportation efforts. So, as 

Secretary, would you continue the work being done on grid modernization efforts? 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
36 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. The two areas that NREL will have a role 

to play, I would suggest going forward, without having deep knowledge of the programmatic line items there, but obviously developing that next level of supercomputing and its impact upon the 

grid in both hardening and protecting the grid. Both of those are 

going to play a very important role as we go forward at the Department of Energy. 

Senator GARDNER. Along with cybersecurity, I think that is very 

important. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator GARDNER. I look forward to working with you on these 

issues critical to the energy future of this country. Thank you, 

Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Gardner. 

Senator Manchin. 

Senator MANCHIN. Madam Chairman, thank you, and, Governor, 

thank you for—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator MANCHIN [continuing]. Continuing to want to serve, and 

we hope that is the case. 

Let me just say that coming from an energy state, West Virginia, 

Texas, all of us who have really had some heavy lifting states for 

over the years, we take for granted the lights are going to come on 

every time we hit the switch. We take for granted that our air conditioning is going to work, our heat is going to work, our refrigerator is going to keep our food from perishing. Everything is going 

to work. We have taken that for granted. Unbelievable. 

I had a person one time say, ‘‘Governor, I do not know why you 

all use coal in West Virginia. Why do you not just use more electricity? ’’ [Laughter.] 

Now, that tells you what we are dealing with. That really tells 

you really the scope of what we are dealing with. I want to put it 

in perspective because I am sitting where I sit and trying to defend 

basically an all-in energy policy. I am for everything. I am for all 

the wind, solar, renewables, and everything. 

But you have to be rational and practical. Where does our baseload come? And when I talk about baseload, people do not know 

what I am talking about. I said just everything I talked about. 

Lights come on when you want it. Your refrigerator works when 

you want it. You can wash your clothes when you want to. You 

have got to have something that will work 24/7. You have got to 

have baseload. 

The only thing in this country that gives you baseload today is 

coal and nuclear. Gas is coming on as baseload, but until we get 

the pipelines, you are not going to have everything you want, 

maybe in Washington because of hydro from Canada. Other than 

that, a lot of us do not get it. So I am trying to look at a rational 

position. 

I said, and we are talking about all the cuts and everything, and 

I really, really appreciate your answers. They are very good. With 

that you are going to look at whatever you have, whatever money 

you have to work with. All I am asking for is proportionate of how 

you are going to spend in research and technology. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
37 

I would say this to you. The mix we have right now on energy, 

coal and natural gas in 2015 was 66 percent of the energy, produced 66 percent of our energy, coal and natural gas. Nuclear, 20 

percent. Renewables, 13 percent. 

Now, let me tell you in President Obama’s budget for 2017, and 

they wonder why I have odds at this, 66 percent is supposed to 

come—energy is supposed to come from coal and gas. He committed 

$600 million for research out of $4.5 billion. That is 13 percent. Nuclear, nuclear produces 20 percent. It is allotted $994 million. That 

is 20 percent, proportional. Renewables, 13 percent. He committed 

$2.9 billion, or 64 percent of our research dollars, and only get a 

return on 13 percent of the energy. Even if it goes to 20 or 25, 75 

percent, and it is not going to be a baseload. The wind blows at 

night. You do not use your electricity. You do not usually wash 

your clothes at 2:00 in the morning. 

We are just trying to make sure that we understand. Until we 

get that new technology, that energy future, you better take care 

of what you got. So I would ask basically with this mix, can we 

look for more of a proportionate mix so we can do it better? 

Mr. PERRY. Yeah. Senator, what you have my commitment to is 

also backed up by my record, and my record as the Governor of 

Texas has been that individual who was not afraid to get outside 

of the box and to look at some things, to base your decisions on 

sound science. And interestingly with that, I think it is important 

for us to keep in mind that from time to time science gets it wrong, 

you know. 

Again, we had a lot of people coming and telling us in the early 

2000s that we had found all the oil that we were going to find, and 

we found out that was not the case. 

Senator MANCHIN. Yes. 

Mr. PERRY. And had we completely made all the changes in our 

operations, we would probably be in a bit of a sling right now. 

I am committed to an all-of-the-above policy with the knowledge 

and the history of being an individual that believes in finding more 

efficient, more effective, more positive impact on our environment 

technologies. 

Senator MANCHIN. I think—if I can—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator MANCHIN [continuing]. Real quickly. The only thing I am 

saying is we get the living crap beat out of us doing the heavy lifting and doing the dirty work. If you do the coal, which we do in 

West Virginia, we do the natural gas, and nobody likes it, but they 

sure as heck use it, okay? That is all I hear about. 

They want us to make it cleaner, but they say we cannot make 

it cleaner. Well, when you do not have any commitment from the 

Federal Government to do what they said they want to do and give 

us the money to find the next technology or the next research 

through technology that we can get to that next level, then do not 

continue to berate us because you are not going to do it any other 

way. You need us. You just do not like it. But we will do it better 

if you will work with us. 

Mr. PERRY. Do not get me confused with the previous Administration. From the standpoint—— 

Senator MANCHIN. Trust me, I will not. [Laughter.] 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
38 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. From the standpoint of being an individual who has promoted those sources of energy that can drive an 

economy, and at the same time help our environment. 

Senator MANCHIN. Yes. 

Mr. PERRY. I have a record of doing that, Senator. And you can 

expect if I am so fortunate as to be confirmed by this committee, 

that same commitment, but also that same action and activity—— 

Senator MANCHIN. Well, I appreciate that and look forward to 

working with you. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator MANCHIN. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Manchin. 

Senator Flake. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you. 

Thank you, Governor Perry. Great to hear from you and meet in 

the office. I just wanted to follow up on a conversation we had 

there as well. 

As you know, there are four Power Marketing Administrations 

that fall under the purview of DOE, and I often hear from Arizona 

electric consumers that are frustrated with the Western Area 

Power Administration, WAPA. 

A good number of WAPA customers in Arizona are rural co-ops 

and irrigation districts that really need to keep their electric rates 

low. They have been concerned with transparency at WAPA, at 

some of the spending that has been going on and some unobligated 

balances that they have and why those have not resulted in lowering of rates. Just yesterday, I sat down with WAPA Administrator Gabriel for an update on their unobligated balances and the 

numerous internal audits to ensure fiscal responsibility. 

Can you commit to work with me to make sure that Arizona customers get the lowest rates possible from WAPA? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, we will commit to work with you to make 

sure that the Department of Energy follows the statutes and the 

laws and the Constitution, and not go outside those bounds. If you 

ever see the agency participating in something like that, I know I 

can expect a phone call from you. 

Senator FLAKE. All right. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. 

As you know, Arizona is home to the nation’s largest nuclear 

plant, and so, obviously, the nuclear policies of the Department are 

of interest to any of us in Arizona. The nuclear power industry 

needs a resolution to the long-term storage problem that we have. 

What will DOE do under your leadership to bring some kind of resolution to that issue? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, as I have made in some earlier remarks, 

both to the Ranking Member and to the members as a whole, the 

time of kicking the can down the road on dealing with this issue, 

my goal will be that those days are over, that we can have a 

thoughtful conversation, a productive conversation, a conversation 

where the citizens of your state and these 35 different states that 

are repositories today, not by their desire, but by the inaction of 

the Federal Government over the course of the decades. That we 

can, in fact, number one, by making good decisions here, looking 

at alternatives, by making a real commitment to clean up the enviVerDate Sep 11 2014 01:09 Mar 02, 2017 Jkt 023616 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\E616.XXX E616

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
39 

ronment in these states and truly find both the interim and the 

long-term storage answers to this extremely difficult situation. 

Senator FLAKE. All right. Thank you. 

I am encouraged to see that research is being done around the 

U.S. in terms of the future of nuclear energy, new technology, particularly the small modular reactors. In what ways can DOE work 

with the private sector? I know there are companies, NuScale 

Power, and obviously, you need to work with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission on this. How can DOE further this research and 

speed the adoption of some of these new technologies? 

Mr. PERRY. Again, I think my historical engagement with universities as a Governor, and obviously, the relationship with—I think 

there are 11 Senators who were Governors, and their counterparts 

in their states, hopefully, we can find not just the private sector 

and DOE but also a third partner that I think is very important, 

and that is our universities and the scientists and the men and 

women that are there. So I find the entire concept of the small 

modular reactors as a fascinating—as one of the alternatives we 

need to have a conversation with. 

But again, I will go back to say that none of these are going to 

move forward with the expedition that we would like until we find 

the answer and are willing to address this issue of dealing with the 

waste that we have in the states today. 

Senator FLAKE. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Flake. 

Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Governor. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you so much for coming into my office. 

Did you enjoy meeting me? [Laughter.] 

Mr. PERRY. I hope you are as much fun on that dais as you were 

on your couch. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well—— 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. PERRY. May I rephrase that, sir? 

Senator FRANKEN. Please. Please. Please. Oh, my Lord. Oh, my 

Lord. [Laughter.] 

Mr. PERRY. Well, I think we found our Saturday Night Live 

soundbite. [Laughter.] 

Senator FRANKEN. Let’s move on. [Laughter.] 

One of the fun things on the couch was when you said—— 

[Laughter.] 

That the shale energy boom owed a lot to the Department of Energy. This is something I think my colleagues on the other side 

have almost gotten sick of me saying. 

But you make a great validator, and we talked about this, so I 

know that you agree that the Department of Energy was an enormous factor in the shale boom. Is that right? 

Mr. PERRY. I would suggest to you that there were technologies 

that were moved forward at the DOE that both our universities 

and the private sector then took and implemented together that allowed for the shale revolution to occur. But the private sector had 

a substantial amount to do with that. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
40 

George Mitchell, who was a Texas geologist, was a great example 

of an individual who heard scientists and, I am sure, his private 

sector friends time after time said you are wasting your time and 

wasting your money—but he believed in it. I give as much credit 

to him as I do the DOE, but I think the DOE has a role to play. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well, as a matter of fact, the vice president 

of his company, Dan Steward, said this, and I quote, ‘‘DOE started 

it, and other people took the ball and ran with it. You cannot diminish DOE’s involvement.’’ 

Really the reason I bring this up, not just to lord that over my 

colleagues who doubted me, but also to just point to the importance 

of research from DOE in solving all these problems that we have. 

That is why I hope these reports on cuts in DOE are not true. 

Things in the new Administration seem to be fluid, shall I say. 

I want to go to climate change. As we discussed in my office, I 

believe that climate change is an existential threat, and one of the 

most serious challenges of our time. 

In your 2010 book, you claim, ‘‘We have been experiencing a cooling trend.’’ Well, it was just announced yesterday, as Senator Heinrich said, that this is the hottest year on record. The year before 

was also the hottest year on record. The year before that—the first 

time 3 years in a row have been the hottest year on record. 

In 2014, you said, ‘‘I do not believe that we have the settled 

science by any sense of the imagination. Calling CO2 a pollutant 

is doing a disservice to the country and, I believe, a disservice to 

the world.’’ 

Now I see in your testimony that your views have been evolving 

on this, and you note that man is responsible for some climate 

change. How much climate do you think the science shows is due 

to human activity? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, far from me to be sitting before you today 

and claiming to be a climate scientist. I will not do that. 

Senator FRANKEN. I do not think you are ever going to be a climate scientist, but you are going to be the head of the Department 

of Energy. 

Mr. PERRY. That’s correct, and I know how to hire really good 

scientists. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well, 97 percent of climate scientists say that 

this is real and that we are going to be approaching at the end of 

the century 3.5 Celsius increases in temperature, which would be 

disastrous, and I do not want that for my grandchildren. 

Let me put that number, that 97 percent, in context. A recent 

survey found that only 95 percent of scientists are sure that cigarettes cause cancer. So it seems to me that the science on climate 

change is pretty definitive. 

So I just do not want, and I know my time is out, I do not want 

this idea of the economy and addressing climate change at odds at 

all. As you saw in your state, people stay in your communities that 

have wind. Those towers are big. They are tall. Only young people 

can go up those towers. They keep young people in your community. 

We owe it to—I do not know if you have grandchildren yet. I 

know that your daughter—— 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
41 

Mr. PERRY. A little early for that. They were just married in October. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes. Yes, too early. See, I am not a mathematician. [Laughter.] 

My time is over. It is gone. It is done. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. We need a little levity every now and 

again. 

Let us go to Senator Risch for some more. 

Senator FRANKEN. What? Am I a clown to you? [Laughter.] 

Senator RISCH. We are going to ignore that, Senator. 

Governor, thank you for being willing to do this. 

First of all, you earlier apologized for raiding four businesses in 

other states when you were Governor. You know, there are four 

former Governors on this committee, two and two. In that regard, 

I would say you do not ever have to apologize for that. We have 

all sinned in that regard in our former lives, some quite successfully, I might add. So no apology is necessary. 

You are taking over arguably the most complex and broad-reaching agency within the government. Now you might say that DOE 

maybe has a broader span in different ways, but as far as reaching 

Americans lives, this is probably as broad-reaching as it gets. And 

it is incredibly complex. Your soon-to-be predecessor was a nuclear 

physicist, as you know. We actually got along with him quite well. 

He was very intimidating when he started talking about nuclear 

physics. But in any event, my contention would be you do not have 

to be a nuclear physicist to run this agency. 

As Senator Manchin adequately described what happens when 

you become Governor, nobody hands you a manual. Your success 

or failure depends upon your own ability to manage an incredibly 

broad-reaching range of services and issues for the people of your 

state, and it all depends on the people that you bring around you, 

obviously, because you have to have experts around you. Believe 

me, in this agency you are taking on, you are going to need lots 

and lots of experts to help you do that. 

Everybody has talked about their states. We have, in Idaho, the 

Idaho National Laboratory (INL), which is the birthplace of nuclear 

energy in the world. The first lightbulbs lit by nuclear energy were 

done so there at the lab, and it is today the lead laboratory on nuclear energy. 

I have to tell you, after I met with you, I was really impressed 

with how you are getting your arms around this. There are a lot 

of different laboratories in the country. Most Americans have no 

idea what they do or the complexity of them, and I was very impressed with the way that you are getting your arms around them. 

A couple things that you and I talked about, and I appreciate 

your commitment to, and that is also the INL, in addition to its nuclear mission, is now becoming one of the lead laboratories—there 

will probably be three of them altogether—dealing with this cybersecurity and control systems issue that is an incredible vulnerability here in America. You and I talked about that a little bit. 

Can you tell me your thoughts on that publicly? 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
42 

Senator RISCH. We talked about it privately. I think you should 

have the ability to talk about this publicly. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator, and thank you for relaying the 

interesting juxtaposition that Governors have when it comes to 

managing the kind of complex issues that they face. Again, I go 

back to—I think that is a very good prerequisite and foundation. 

Ernie Moniz and I are good friends. I mean, we have known each 

other—Bill Richardson. Interestingly, I think in the history of the 

agency, there have only been two nuclear physicists that were the 

heads of the agency. There has been a Governor or two. 

So the issue, from my perspective, is being able to manage and 

prioritize what is important, and finding those individuals who are 

some of the best in the business. You may not be able to bring 

them into government, but you can draw them into the process, a 

great many times because of their patriotic commitment to this 

country. 

So on the cybersecurity side, that will be my intention, to go find 

men and women in the private sector, in our universities, at the 

DOE. 

As you know, our national labs, they are the repository of some 

of the extraordinary brilliance in the world. They truly are a crown 

jewel of this country from an intellectual and particularly a scientific standpoint. Putting together a team, obviously, working 

with other agencies, DARPA is going to play an important role. I 

would suggest to you there are many other areas. But to coordinate 

cross-agency I think, Senator, is really going to be important as 

well. To have the support not only of the Administration but of 

Congress and the private sector on what I consider to be one of the 

great challenges that we have in the short span, because this arena 

is going to change, and it is going to change in a hurry. 

Just like the supercomputing side, we have allowed ourselves to 

get a bit behind in supercomputing. As a matter of fact, that is one 

of the areas that I think dovetails into the cybersecurity side, is our 

ability to move forward to that next generation of supercomputing, 

the exascale models that are going to be out there. 

So you will see the same commitment that I made, that I had, 

that we had a success in, in my home state, of going literally from 

zero to the manufacturing of vaccines for pandemic events. I mean, 

I know that we can do this, and I know that we have the expertise. 

We need the management. We need the resources. But we can 

successfully put into place cybersecurity practices that not only secure our private conversations from that matter, but to the more 

important side of things, our electrical grid and our military capabilities. 

Senator RISCH. Thank you. Well said, Governor. 

My time is up. I am sorry we did not get a chance to talk about 

the small modular reactor. I know you are a real fan of that. That 

is being developed at the INL. Also, of course, at the INL, we develop all of the space batteries and produce the space batteries that 

actually go out on these missions. We will talk about that more. My 

time is up. 

Thank you, Madam Chairman. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Risch. 

Senator King. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
43 

Senator KING. Governor, at the risk of beating the fraternal 

order of Governors subject into the ground, I remember meeting 

you 16 years ago tomorrow on the steps of the Capitol, standing 

next to one another at George W. Bush’s Inauguration. So the 

amazing thing to me is that neither one of us has aged a day. It 

is extraordinary. 

I also want to caution you that this is the only committee around 

here where you can use the word ‘‘sequester’’ and expect a positive 

response. Nowhere else do you get that. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator KING. People have talked about these cuts. You are 

going to be called upon to lead in the next several weeks and 

months. The cuts that are being proposed, if, indeed, the media reports of this morning are correct, are devastating, and they go to 

the heart of what we have been talking about today. I hope the 

people that are proposing these cuts are watching this hearing, because they heard Senator Hoeven use the phrase ‘‘technology really 

is the way forward.’’ 

You have talked about it. We talked about the role of the Department of Energy in fracking research, and just moments ago, you 

were talking about advanced computing. That is one of the items 

on the cutting board, apparently, which is absolutely beyond me. 

Eliminate the Office of Electricity, Office of Electrical Efficiency 

and Renewable Energy, Office of Fossil Energy. This is absolutely 

nuts in terms of the future of energy in this country. 

It seems to me DOE has essentially two functions. One is the nuclear enterprise, which you have discussed. The other is research 

and basic research that then can be taken by the private sector and 

turned into the revolutionary changes that are changing our society, whether it is in fracking or in renewables or offshore energy, 

whatever it is. 

You are going to have to really do some hard pushing back on 

this, because assuming this is true, I find it is almost self-parody 

to be cutting energy research at this moment in time. Will you 

commit to me that you are going to be lionhearted in this endeavor 

to protect your agency, because they are cutting the legs out from 

under you? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I have a rather interesting background, not 

unlike yours, of defending budgets, both from those who are in the 

know and sometimes people who— 

Senator KING. It is hard for me to believe that the people that 

are recommending these cuts are in any kind of know. 

Mr. PERRY. I will allow your statement to stand. 

My point is, I know what the Department of Energy should be 

good at. I have spent enough time making myself aware, both talking to individuals inside the agencies, individuals who have been 

there before—— 

Senator KING. I am going to have to cut you off, because the 

chair is so rigorous about our time. But I really hope you will be 

strong in this, and I think you have indicated that you will. 

On an entirely different subject, we have talked several times 

today about LNG exports. Here is what is of concern to me. We 

have now got the total production of natural gas in the country to 

about 75 BCF a day. We have already approved 14 BCF, which is 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
44 

about 20 percent of the total production, for export. In the queue 

is 71 percent of the production for export. 

If that happens, there is no way in the world—this Congress cannot repeal the law of supply and demand—and there is no way in 

the world that that will not drastically and significantly affect domestic prices, which has been one of our advantages vis-a-vis the 

rest of the world in terms of bringing manufacturing back and sustaining our economy. 

The Natural Gas Act back in 1938 says that for the Department 

of Energy to issue a permit, it has to be in the public interest. My 

request of you is to be sure that the public interest definition includes effect on domestic prices. Will you give me that commitment? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, what I will commit to is finding ways to 

make sure that we do not artificially affect supply and demand. 

What I will suggest to you is that there are decisions that have 

been made in Washington, D.C. that have artificially affected supply and demand, and it has been on the supply side. 

I would ask the EPA and the Department of the Interior, and 

whether it is Congress and on the tax and regulatory side that they 

can affect, to make sure that we have the ability to fill the supply, 

because the demand is going to be there. If we produce it in America, it makes abundant good sense to me for us to sell it to the 

world. 

Senator KING. Unless doing so significantly increases domestic 

prices, which is exactly what happened in Australia, where they 

are now exporting almost all of their natural gas, and their natural 

gas domestically I think tripled in price. That would be a disaster 

for the economy of this country. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, and I totally understand that. But my point is 

that when we look at this entire issue globally, we need to make 

sure that we are not making decisions here that are affecting the 

ability to supply, so that you can keep the demand addressed in a 

thoughtful and a fair way that does not drive up the cost to where 

a manufacturing base, for instance, of which we are trying to bring 

America back in a strong and powerful way, would be affected in 

a negative way. 

Senator KING. Low-priced natural gas is an advantage we have 

I would hate to lose. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator King. 

Senator Portman. 

Senator PORTMAN. Thank you. 

Governor Perry, thank you for your willingness to step up—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator PORTMAN [continuing]. And serve again in a different 

way, and your family for sacrifices that involves. 

I enjoyed our meeting. Apparently it was not as scintillating at 

the conference table here as your one on the couch with my colleague from Minnesota. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator PORTMAN. But it was interesting, and we talked about 

a number of topics. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
45 

One was the importance to my state and to the nation of having 

a uranium enrichment capability. In Piketon, Ohio, we have a 

plant that produced enriched uranium until about 2000. At that 

point, it was shut down. It was the gaseous diffusion method, and 

it is now being cleaned up. When President Obama ran in 2008, 

he promised to accelerate that cleanup. In fact, just the opposite 

has happened. Pretty much every year we have had to fight just 

to keep the cleanup in place. It has gone from a 2024 time frame 

to a 2044 end date, costing taxpayers, by the way, billions more by 

stretching it out and not being more efficient about it. 

I am very disappointed in the Department of Energy for their inability to follow through on their commitments to the plant. Frankly, it is really difficult for people who work there. They just never 

know if their next paycheck is going to be there. This usually happens around Christmastime, as it did this past Christmas. 

So one question for you. Would you be committed to looking at 

this cleanup effort in a more logical way, helping to ensure that we 

have the funds necessary to be able to expedite that cleanup, 

which, again, provides security to these families, but, importantly, 

lowers the cost for the taxpayer by getting this cleanup done? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will commit to you that I will become as 

educated on this issue as I can, in the most expeditious way that 

I can manage it, and employ management skills and capabilities. 

I, again, without knowing the deep details of this, but my instinct tells me that this is an issue of execution, of good management. 

Senator PORTMAN. I thank you for that, and I will put you on the 

spot here further. 

Secretary Moniz, when he went through his confirmation hearing, committed to come to the site. We never managed to work that 

out. I would love for you to see the site. It is a couple thousand 

acres. As I told you, it has incredible infrastructure, electricity and 

water. It would be a great site for a future plant, including a power 

plant, including a nuclear power plant. The community is very supportive. 

Would you commit to come out and to see this yourself, to see 

the huge investment the Department of Energy has made into this 

facility? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will commit to that, and I will suggest that 

you know how to get ahold of me if I do not show up on a timely 

basis for you. 

Senator PORTMAN. Right. Well, thank you. 

Second, we started a new centrifuge technology project there a 

few years ago. We were very excited about that. In late 2015, without any notice, the Department of Energy shut that down. Unfortunately, they had spent hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer 

money up to that point. Those centrifuges are still there. They are 

not spinning anymore. They are apparently going to be sent to the 

desert, which is an enormous waste of taxpayer money. 

We have no ability to enrich uranium in this country. We have 

to rely on foreigners at a time when we have increased volatility 

globally, and at a time when, ironically, we are telling Iran they 

can go ahead and enrich uranium for their domestic purposes. We, 

as Americans, do not have the ability to do that. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
46 

My question for you there is, would you also be willing to look 

into this issue? I am not going to ask you for a specific commitment 

today on restarting this because I know you need to research it, but 

I hope that you will give this your personal attention and objective 

consideration, because it seems to me we need to have enrichment 

capabilities in this country. Do you have a response to that? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will give it the appropriate and thorough 

study. In addition, I will say that the enrichment of uranium in the 

United States is a national security issue, and one that I take very 

seriously. I look forward to working with you to not only understand this issue better, but if it is concluded, as I suspect it will, 

that this is, indeed, a national security issue that needs to be addressed either by the United States Congress and/or the Administration, you will have a willing partner in making sure that the 

DOE does it in the most efficient, most effective, and most economically feasible way that it can. 

Senator PORTMAN. Well, thank you, Governor. It is a national security issue. There is no question about it, not just being reliant 

on foreign countries, including Russia, for uranium, but also because we need low-enriched uranium for tritium in the nuclear 

stockpile. And, of course, we need to have enriched uranium for our 

nuclear Navy. 

I know we have stockpiles now, but we do not have the ability 

to quickly be able to enrich. It probably takes a decade to get this 

back up and going, if we shut it off altogether, at, again, an enormous cost to taxpayers. 

Finally, just one last question. We talked a lot about energy efficiency in our meeting. I told you about the fact that this committee 

overwhelmingly had voted out an energy efficiency bill equivalent 

of taking 22 million cars off the road by 2030. We also passed it 

in the entire Senate, 82–15, as I recall. 

Both the Ranking Member and the Chair have been at the forefront of this issue. I would like your commitment today that you 

will work with us on energy efficiency and help us to get that legislation across the line. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Use me as you see fit. 

Senator PORTMAN. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Portman. 

Senator Duckworth. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

Thank you for being here, Governor Perry. I look forward to your 

visit to two of the DOE’s crown jewels, Fermilab and Argonne National Laboratories in Illinois. 

Governor, while I served in Iraq, I risked life and limb, as did 

so many brave young Americans, protecting diesel fuel supply 

lines, and I saw firsthand the painful price this nation pays because of our reliance on foreign oil. 

So for me, investment in renewable energy is not only about the 

environment, not only about jobs, not only about competing with 

China and other nations that are making huge investments in 

clean energy. It is also a very clear national security imperative for 

us. 

Under your leadership, Texas made impressive progress in wind 

energy production, but I do worry that you have made statements 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
47 

opposing Federal Government involvement to encourage investments in any energy sector. With the successes you have seen in 

wind energy, I know that you must recognize that these gains 

could not have been made without Federal support. Our nation’s 

wind industry would not be where it is today without the Federal 

Government, and I want to replicate the success in wind energy 

that you saw in Texas under your leadership. I would like to do 

that in Illinois and across the nation. Will you maintain the support of programs at DOE that promote renewable energy programs 

that strive to move us forward and away from our heavy reliance 

on fossil fuels? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, thank you. Just as an aside, I want to say 

thank you for your service. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. There are few people in this room that have made 

the commitment to this country that you have. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. There are some in this audience that have, but we 

collectively thank you for your service. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. You and I had a pretty broad-ranging conversation 

about the alternative renewables that are out there, the least of 

which is not wind. And my home state aggressively and very positively supported that. 

There is, I think, a role for the DOE as we go forward, continuing to find the technological advances, whether it is on turbines, whether it is on blade design, whether it is on some other 

aspect. 

One of the first emerging technology fund grants that we made 

after I had helped create that program was on nanophotonics and 

recruiting some top scientists in the world to Texas Tech University on the solar side. My commitment will be to look at every program. 

Senator, I think you know my record. I am a fiscal conservative, 

and I do not back away from that. I think that is a badge I wear 

with honor. But I do believe that there is a role for us to play both 

at the State level and at the Federal level to continue to put forward, funded by our taxpayer dollars, technologies that can, in fact, 

make us more efficient, make us more economically viable, improve 

our quality of life. That is my record, and you cannot change the 

stripes on this zebra. I mean, it is just the way I am. It is what 

I believe in. The Administration knew that when they asked me to 

serve in this role. I am committed to the continuation of using 

these brilliant scientists, the private sector, our universities, in collaboration to finding the solutions to the challenges, whether it is 

on renewables or whether it is ways to use resources that we have 

in a more efficient, safe, effective manner. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you. 

You have spoken quite proudly of our national laboratories, and 

both Fermilab and Argonne are major employers in Illinois. But 

they also are developing next generation battery storage, advanced 

supercomputers, and exploring even the smallest building blocks of 

matter. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
48 

You and I spoke at length also about the need to develop ways 

to store, perhaps reuse, nuclear fuel. I just popped out a little bit 

ago to meet with the students from Zion-Benton, Illinois—go fighting Zee-Bees, they told me I needed to say that—who are from a 

town that cannot develop valuable lakefront property because there 

is a decommissioned nuclear reactor there. And that nuclear fuel, 

spent fuel, we have not been able to find a way to take care of it. 

I just want to make sure that you are committed to supporting 

these national laboratories and the very important work that they 

do. 

Mr. PERRY. I will not burn your time, the committee’s time—— 

Senator DUCKWORTH. I am out of time anyway. 

Mr. PERRY. By reiterating my commitment to managing that 

issue. I think I would suggest to you it has been both a political 

and a management challenge. Hopefully, as we go forward, we can 

stand together as a country and talk about a legacy that we finally 

made substantial progress in removing waste from your states to 

places both interim or long-term that address this challenge. 

Senator DUCKWORTH. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Duckworth. 

We have finished our first round. We will have an opportunity 

for another. I appreciate the fact, Governor, that you have been sitting for a considerable period of time. Hopefully, we will be able to 

move quickly through this second round and not put you through 

too much more, if you have the endurance. 

Mr. PERRY. I am here at your service, ma’am. 

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we love to hear. We appreciate 

that. 

Governor, I am just looking through my morning clips and the 

front page of the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner, where I went to 

high school, ‘‘Frigid Fairbanks Today,’’ and the Denali State Bank 

sign that has the temperature. It says it is 52 below. That is the 

picture. So it is cold back home, and when it is cold, you need to 

stay warm. And when you need to stay warm, sometimes, again, 

it can be very costly to stay warm. 

When we talk about all-of-the-above energy policies in Alaska, 

we really live it and perhaps more so than others because, at times 

of the year like this, your life depends on your ability to keep 

warm. 

But it is not just the oil and the natural gas and the coal and 

the fossil fuels that we have. The people in Fairbanks do not have 

the benefit of natural gas. They are a community that right now 

is effectively relying on home heating fuel, so it is expensive for my 

sister to keep the house that I was raised in, to keep it warm during the wintertime. 

As we look to find solutions, one of the things that we are looking 

to in Alaska is the prospect, the ability, to access our natural gas 

from the slope and to be able to access that for the benefit of Alaskans and, really, for the benefit of the country. I look forward to 

your commitment to help us work to facilitate that natural gas 

pipeline. 

But we also have so much more. We have wind. We do not have 

a lot of solar right now. It is a little bit dark, but that changes very 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
49 

soon. We have incredible opportunities. Twenty-four percent of our 

energy produced in the state comes to us from hydropower, an 

amazing resource down in the southeastern part of the state. Unfortunately, hydropower is not viewed as a renewable resource. I 

would like to work to change that with you. 

We also have 33,000 miles of coastline. That is a lot of coastline. 

That is a lot of water. That is tidal energy. That is marine 

hydrokinetic, if we can harness the power of the Yukon and the 

Kuskokwim. It is bountiful. We have the biomass potential. 

We have, again, pioneered in so many different ways. We want 

to be able to utilize microgrids, but right now the definition of 

microgrid says that you have to have the ability to connect and disconnect from your grid. Well, if you do not have a grid in the first 

place, then you do not count as that. 

So we need to work with you, as the incoming Secretary, to make 

sure that we are not standing in the way, that our own Federal 

Government is not standing in the way of this innovation that is 

coming from our national labs, that is coming from the innovators 

on the ground as we are working to help facilitate this. 

We need you to help us cut through a lot of what has been put 

in place that holds back the innovation, that keep the people in 

Fairbanks right now that are trying to stay warm and it is costing 

them a pretty penny to do so, to give them the assurances that 

they have options. 

I look forward to working with you on some of those specifics. 

One of the things that we do not have in Alaska, as an all-ofthe-above state, we do not have any nuclear. We have a small population. You know that. But the prospect for what small modular 

nuclear reactors—and Senator Risch almost got to his question 

here, so I would like to have you address that as you talk about 

the broader panoply of energy options. But the potential for small, 

remote communities or whether it is our military installations up 

there at Eielson, for instance, a good example. Some of our forward 

operating base outposts. But as Senator Duckworth made the 

point, and I think appropriately so, reliance on at-risk fuel supplies 

can be life-threatening. So the potential that we have with micro 

and small modular reactors, including the more advanced reactors, 

I think hold great prospect for us. Can you speak to how you view 

the role for advanced nuclear and small modular reactors? 

Mr. PERRY. I am not sure I can do it anymore eloquently than 

you just have, Madam Chairwoman. 

But the point is, those are exactly the types of focus that the Department of Energy should be engaged with, should be funding. 

I will share with you that I will help you in any small or other 

way. If there needs to be legislation that changes Federal laws on 

the microgrid issue, I will be more than happy to help you do that, 

because it makes abundant good sense. 

Again, this is that old classic of one-size-does-not-fit-all, that it 

had not really been thought through—it may be a really great idea. 

My home state happens not to be attached to the Federal grid either, and it works pretty well for us. 

But we are a diverse country. We have a lot of different geography. We have different people. We have different regions. And to 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
50 

thoughtfully put in place energy policies that take into account that 

diversity is really important. 

So you have my commitment not only—I am obviously a very 

strong supporter of this new technology. We want to look at it from 

a safety standpoint, we want to look at it from the standpoint of 

being able to secure it properly, of these small nuclear modular reactors. 

But there are places, Senator Duckworth and I had that conversation, that particularly from a military application to power 

those bases, of which you have a number of in your home state, 

may be a good starting point on those. And then plug them in, if 

you will, to the nearby neighborhoods and have that alternative 

form of energy that can, in fact, make it available and affordable. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

I know we said we were going to a second round, but Senator 

Sanders has not had an opportunity to ask a question yet, so we 

will turn to him. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you. 

Welcome, Governor. 

August 17, 2011, CBS News, ‘‘Republican presidential candidate 

Rick Perry said Wednesday morning that he does not believe in 

global warming science and suggests that it is grounded in scientists manipulating data for financial gain. He said the climate is 

changing, but it has been changing ‘ever since the Earth was 

formed.’ Perry added that, ‘The issue of global warming has been 

politicized,’’ and argued that America should not spend billions of 

dollars addressing ‘a scientific theory that has not been proven and, 

from my perspective,’ ’’—Governor Perry’s—‘‘ ‘is more and more 

being put into question.’ ’’ 

That position is at variance with virtually the entire scientific 

community that has studied climate change. In fact, the scientists 

that I hear from believe that climate change is the great planetary 

environmental crisis that we face, and that we need to move forward aggressively to transform our energy system away from fossil 

fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy. 

Do you still hold the views that you expressed in 2011, number 

one? Number two, Governor, do you agree with those scientists 

that it is absolutely imperative that we transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency, so that we can leave 

this planet in a way that is healthy and habitable for our kids and 

future generations? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I believe the climate is changing. I believe 

some of it is naturally occurring. I believe some of it is caused by 

manmade activity. The question is, how do we address it in a 

thoughtful way that does not compromise economic growth, that, 

quite frankly, does not affect our energy affordability. 

Senator Murkowski talked about the individuals in her state—— 

Senator SANDERS. Governor, I do not mean to be rude. We just 

have a short period of time. 

Mr. PERRY. No, no. 

Senator SANDERS. And I apologize. 

But Senator Cantwell made I think an important point on this, 

and that is we are in danger of spending God knows how many billions of dollars to repair the damage done by climate change. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
51 

Drought is becoming a major crisis. It will impact agriculture in a 

very significant way. 

Basically, what I am asking you, let us get beyond the rhetoric, 

and you do not have to agree with me. The scientists that I talk 

to, I think the majority of the scientists who study this issue, feel 

that climate change is a global crisis. It is not a question of balancing this and balancing that. It is a global crisis, which requires 

massive cuts in carbon and the transformation of our energy system. How do you respond to that? 

Mr. PERRY. I like getting past the rhetoric, sir, and getting past 

the rhetoric is looking at the record. 

Senator SANDERS. I know, but—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir, but I think it is important for us to talk 

about the 12th largest economy in the world, while I was the Governor, because you are asking me what am I going to do about economic impact—— 

Senator SANDERS. I am asking you if you agree with the scientific community that climate change is a crisis and that we need 

to transform our energy system to protect future generations. 

Mr. PERRY. And, Senator, I will respond that I think that having 

an academic discussion, whether it is with scientists or whether it 

is with you, it is an interesting exercise. 

But do I have a record of affecting the climate in the world and 

in this country, and the answer is yes. When you lower carbon 

emissions by 17 percent, and sulfur dioxide by 66 percent, and NOX

by 58 percent, don’t you think that is a good thing? 

Senator SANDERS. Well, I think what would be a better thing is 

for you to say right now that you recognize that we have a global 

crisis, and that the United States of America should help lead the 

world, working with China, Russia, countries around the world, to 

transform our energy system. 

Let me change subjects to another area. As you mentioned in 

your opening remarks, more than 60 percent of DOE’s budget deals 

with nuclear energy. 

I and I think many Americans were concerned about Presidentelect Trump’s remarks regarding allowing or supporting more countries around the world to get nuclear weapons. The United States 

under Democratic and Republican Administrations for many, many 

decades now has been strong in saying that we want not to be testing nuclear weapons. Can you give us some assurance that you are 

within the mainstream in saying that testing of nuclear weapons 

is a dangerous idea? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, what I can tell you is I think it is really important for the United States to have a nuclear arsenal that is 

modern, that is safe. At this particular point in time, I think if we 

had General Klotz here, he would tell you that that is probably the 

case, that he is comfortable—— 

Senator SANDERS. The question was dealing with nuclear testing. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator SANDERS. Will you support the ban on nuclear testing? 

Mr. PERRY. That is where I was getting to, is that, obviously, the 

scientists that we have at the DOE, the scientists in the private 

sector, I am going to rely upon their observations of whether there 

is clear technical ability to use the technology that we have today. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
52 

I think anyone would be of the opinion that if we do not ever have 

to test another nuclear weapon, that would be a good thing, not 

just for the United States but for the world. 

Senator SANDERS. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Lee. 

Senator LEE. Thank you, Madam Secretary. 

Thanks so much, Governor Perry, for being with us. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator LEE. Thanks for your willingness to be considered for 

this position. 

I wanted to talk to you about a couple things that relate to the 

Department that you will be heading, if you are confirmed. One of 

them relates to uranium, something that Senator Barrasso mentioned a little bit earlier. 

I always worry whenever government gets involved in any marketplace, especially if it gets involved and distorts the marketplace. 

In some instances, it gets involved in a way that picks winners and 

losers, often favoring large, wealthy corporations over newer 

startups that by their very nature tend to have a harder time gaining access to capital, whether it is from government or private sector sources. In other instances, government gets involved and occupies a market, takes over the whole market. 

One of those areas relates to the Department of Energy’s Excess 

Uranium Inventory Management Plan. The USEC Privatization 

Act prohibits the Department of Energy from selling or transferring excess uranium if the sale or transfer will harm the domestic 

uranium industry. You can understand why that policy might be 

in place. It is an industry that, if destroyed, especially if destroyed 

by government action, might cause us harm down the road when 

government resources, government stockpiles, dry up. 

Yet, between 2009 and 2011, the Department of Energy transferred more uranium than it was allowed to transfer under the 

2008 plan. Then in 2012, the GAO found that the Department of 

Energy violated Federal law when it received no compensation for 

a very large transfer of uranium, which cost taxpayers nearly $200 

million. Furthermore, the Department of Energy’s 2013 Excess 

Uranium Inventory Management Plan eliminated all annual caps 

on the transfer of excess uranium. This has introduced a tremendous amount of uncertainty and hazard within the domestic uranium industry. 

If you are confirmed to this position, you are going to have the 

opportunity, after being confirmed, to update the Department of 

Energy’s management plan with regard to excess uranium. Can 

you assure us that your plan will take into account the existence 

of a commercial domestic uranium market, and one that honors the 

market, and then stick to the plan thereafter? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator Lee, thank you. 

You and Senator Barrasso both helped me to understand this 

issue substantially better than before I came into your offices, and 

I thank you for that. As I further come up to speed, if you will, 

knowledgeable of it—but a broad look at this, you correctly identify 

this as a budgetary management issue at the Department of Energy. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
53 

Again, I just like to remind folks that for 14 years, I delivered 

a budget to the Texas Legislature. We negotiated those budgets. 

We prioritized. That is my commitment to you, Senator, is to manage this agency understanding how the budgetary process works, 

working with the OMB, working with members of this committee, 

the Finance Committee, to find the dollars to accomplish the goals 

that we have at the Department of Energy, this obviously being 

one. 

The law clearly states that this does not, cannot, should not happen—— 

Senator LEE. Thank you. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. To manipulate the uranium supplies 

where it has a negative effect. I will follow the laws of this country. 

Senator LEE. Thank you. I appreciate that. 

I have a few seconds left, and I want to get out one more point. 

The Nuclear Waste Policy Act creates an obligation, an obligation 

that is statutory and contractual. It obligates the Department of 

Energy to dispose of spent nuclear fuel. 

Currently, we have about 75,000 tons of nuclear waste stored at 

onsite facilities across the country. The Department of Energy 

started developing a waste disposal site at Yucca Mountain that 

was halted by the Obama Administration in 2010. In the meantime, the government’s breach in this regard, its failure to finish 

this and provide disposal options at Yucca, has cost taxpayers $5.3 

billion in damages, and those damages could mount up to $23 billion, $24 billion in the next few years. I would like to know what 

you plan to do about that and to move forward with Yucca. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, you know, not addressing the issue of Yucca 

directly, I want to ask for the privilege to really come up to speed 

from the standpoint of both the DOE and the legal aspects of this. 

I have a history, as I said to this committee earlier, of solving 

problems, of being a manager and looking at some alternatives 

maybe outside of what we have historically looked at before. 

My commitment is, and my hope is, we have as a legacy of us, 

this committee, this Congress, this Administration, for Americans, 

that we finally, after 30 years of kicking the can down the road for 

whatever reason, but start seeing clear, definitive evidence of addressing this issue and moving to temporary and/or permanent 

siting of this nuclear waste. 

Senator LEE. Thank you. 

Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. Governor Perry, 

I wanted to talk about Hanford, and thank you for mentioning it 

in your statement. Obviously, you know a little bit now about the 

history of the Hanford site, and its production of plutonium, and 

the history it has had for our nation. 

Obviously we now want to see a commitment, as we asked every 

Energy Secretary, to cleaning up the site and to moving forward on 

waste treatment plant construction. Are you committed to funding 

Hanford cleanup no matter what it takes and to getting the waste 

treatment plant finished? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I am committed to working with you and 

prioritizing what is one of the most dangerous, most polluted sites 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
54 

that we have in this country. The commitment that this country 

makes, not me singularly, not the DOE singularly. The country’s 

commitment to do this has been a failure, from my perspective, and 

I will work with you on a very, very diligent basis up to and including coming to Hanford and walking that site with you, sitting down 

with the men and women of the labor unions that are there to hear 

their concerns, and so that they know that there is a Secretary of 

Energy, that there is an Administration that is committed to making true movement on what I consider to be one of the real failures 

that this country has had dealing with our nuclear waste. 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, it is definitely a very complex problem. 

Mr. PERRY. Indeed. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you for recognizing the fact that it is 

arguably one of the most technically challenging cleanup projects 

in the world. Will you work with the state on the Tri-Party Agreement, which is between the Federal Government and the State, on 

the cleanup of the Hanford Site? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, one of my goals, and I hope one of my strong 

suits, is going to be to reach out to governors, reach out to members of the legislature who have had these challenges, obviously 

working with this committee to find the collaborations. And it is 

going to take a collaboration. We understand that. This is going to 

be the private sector, it is going to be the state, it is going to be 

the Federal Government working together to make this happen, 

and doing it in as streamlined and efficient way as we can. You 

have my commitment, yes, ma’am. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. And on this larger issue, because 

the committee dealt with nuclear waste conversations in the last 

Congress—in fact, Secretary Moniz just published an article yesterday in Bloomberg reiterating the various points of what has happened on this issue. Two of those I wanted to get your comment 

on. 

First of all, the Blue Ribbon Commission (BRC) on the future of 

America’s nuclear waste was formed. Our former chair, Senator 

Domenici, and many of our other colleagues spent time on this 

issue. Basically it said one of the ideas would be to separate defense waste from commercial waste because you might be able to 

get it done in a more rapid time period. Secondly, the BRC advocated a consent-based process—the notion that we have spent time 

and money trying to do something that there are great objections 

to that stymied the process. The Commission advocated a process 

where states and those who would be holding material would come 

to agreement in a consensus fashion. Do you support that concept 

of the Blue Ribbon Commission recommendations? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, until I have the opportunity to sit and truly 

go over it, I think it would be a bit unfair for me to tell you absolutely without having read it at length. But as a general rule and 

a general observation of what you have talked about, working with 

the states, having been in public service now for 30-plus years, 

finding consensus is what I did. It makes ultimate good sense to 

do that, understanding that from time to time, you know, sometimes consensus just has not—it is really hard to reach. I know the 

complexities of this issue relatively well, not as well as I will as 

we go forward. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
55 

Senator CANTWELL. Well, yes, the Environmental Management 

Mission is a very big part of the budget—as I mentioned, 20 percent—and the Hanford site accounts for about a third of that total. 

So, I think, notwithstanding the comments of my colleague from 

Utah, I think the committee, and at least the Senate approach, has 

been with our colleague, Senator Alexander from Tennessee, and 

our colleague from California. The legislation they have endorsed 

as appropriators has been to say: let us look at the discussions with 

states, whether it is New Mexico, or whether it is Texas, who are 

on their way planning various activities for low-level waste. But is 

there a faster way to get solutions—to remediate these sites and 

find a permanent disposal site? 

The Blue Ribbon Commission was a bipartisan group of experts—Brent Scowcroft, Lee Hamilton, and a whole variety of people, who made these recommendations. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will be open to having those conversations 

and finding the solutions to the challenges. 

Senator CANTWELL. And one last easy one. I know you have that 

‘‘do not mess with Texas’’ kind of attitude when it comes to the 

grid. Will you make sure that BPA is protected and not privatized? 

Mr. PERRY. You and I—you and I have had that conversation 

that—— 

Senator CANTWELL. Our grid is—— 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. Again, I really look forward to coming 

out there, not just to see Hanford, but also the Bonneville Power 

Agency and what they doing—— 

Senator CANTWELL. The lab. 

Mr. PERRY [continuing]. And talking to—yes. 

Senator CANTWELL. Yes. I am sorry, one thing I wanted to say 

about Hanford. You also support—this was a long conversation— 

the workers and making sure that the workers are safe during the 

cleanup of Hanford waste? 

Mr. PERRY. That may be one of our most important duties—making sure that those men and women who are working on a very 

dangerous site have the appropriate protection that they deserve 

and they have earned. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator Heinrich. 

Senator HEINRICH. Governor, I want to follow up on some of the 

conversation you have had working with Senator Cantwell on clean 

up. You are inheriting the cleanup of the legacy of waste from the 

entire Cold War. At Los Alamos, for example, it will take about $4 

billion over the next few decades to finish that effort. That effort 

is not as technically complicated, I think, as the Hanford site, but 

it requires resources. 

I think if the budget is flat, you will have your hands full on this 

front. But we have heard about a potential hiring freeze. I have an 

article this morning from The Hill talking about rolling substantial 

portions of the DOE budget back to 2008 levels. And this is a 

Trump transition team article. How are you going to meet DOE’s 

commitments to states like New Mexico, to states like Washington, 

who have consent agreements on these cleanup efforts if we have 

a dramatically smaller DOE budget? 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
56 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Senator, over the 14 years—actually, I will 

even expand it a little bit. Over the 30 years that I was either a 

State Representative, an appropriator, I was an agency head for 

eight years, and then I was the Governor 14 years—a little bit light 

gov in there as well—we had budgets that did this. They went up 

and they went down. We had some really tough budgets in the 

State of Texas in 1985 and 1987, in particular. I was an appropriator during that period of time. As an agency head, I got to deal 

with what I was given. I obviously went over and negotiated as 

good and as hard as I could. Then as the Governor of the state, it 

was not blue skies and smooth sailing. In 2003, we showed up with 

a $10 billion budget shortfall in our state. So, I have had this experience of dealing with budget shortfalls. I have obviously been 

blessed with some times when we had—I am not sure I ever ran 

into a time when somebody said you get all the money you ever 

need, but my history is I know how to manage. I know how to 

prioritize. 

I will make a commitment to you, Senator, that managing and 

prioritizing that budget inside the Agency will be very high for me. 

I hope it gives some comfort that this is not my first rodeo when 

it comes to dealing with budget shortfalls. 

Senator HEINRICH. Related to that, Governor, and I want to 

thank you for your comments on that, I also want to ask you about 

the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, the WIPP facility, in Carlsbad, 

New Mexico. You may know that WIPP is the nation’s only deep 

geologic repository for transuranic waste from the weapons program, and it is a very important part of the cleanup effort. WIPP 

was closed for nearly three years as a result of two serious accidents. We just reopened it this last month. The investigations into 

those incidents cited lack of proper management and oversight as 

one of the root causes. 

I want to ask you to assure me, but more importantly, to assure 

the people of New Mexico, that the safe operation and proper maintenance of WIPP will be a budget priority and also a management 

priority. 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I hope, again, that my history of managing 

a rather large entity, and I am not going to sit here in front of you 

and tell you we got everything right every day in the State of 

Texas. But by and large, it was a very well-managed place. When 

there were mistakes made, I held people accountable because the 

people of the state of Texas were holding me accountable. 

I consider my accountability not only to be to this Administration, to this committee, to this Congress, but also to the people of 

this country and to the people of your state. I want my neighbors 

in New Mexico or our farmer neighbors in New Mexico to know 

that there is a Secretary of Energy who not only will come to that 

site and to hear their concerns, whether they are employees of 

WIPP or whether they are people who live around the communities 

there, that every reasonable, every thoughtful effort will be made 

to make sure that not only does that site stay open because of the 

powerful economic impact that it has on your state, but also that 

the people who work there are going to be safe. You have got my 

commitment to that, sir. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
57 

Senator HEINRICH. That is exactly what I want to hear. I very 

much appreciate your willingness to spend the first few months of 

your tenure getting to places like the Labs and the WIPP facility. 

I think that means a great deal to the community. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Governor. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I think as with the nominee that we 

had for Secretary of the Interior, these folks are going to be doing 

a lot of traveling in the first six months, which we appreciate. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, ma’am. 

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it. 

Senator Cortez Masto. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Governor. I know in our 

meeting, you committed to coming to Nevada as well, so I appreciate that. 

Staying on the line of questioning here because you are going to 

have a lot on your plate when it comes to the cleanup and disposal 

of high-level and low-level nuclear waste. One of the DOE sites for 

cleanup is the Nevada National Security site, which was established in 1950 to perform nuclear weapons testing activities. There 

are right now three main areas of focus for the DOE for cleanup 

on that site, which is groundwater contamination cleanup, low-level 

radioactive waste disposal cleanup, and environmental monitoring 

and reporting. I just want to know are you committed to continuing 

the cleanup of the Nevada National Security site? 

Mr. PERRY. Of course, Senator. As I shared with Governor 

Sandoval and Senator Heller, you know, I hope we can—again, as 

the Chairman mentioned, I am going to be traveling a lot, and I 

hope that I can, and I will not be coming to Nevada just to see my 

daughter, I might do that as an aside. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Governor. 

Mr. PERRY. But we will be there to go to that site to take a good 

appraisal of it and continue to prioritize these cleanups. I think everyone on the committee will agree that one of the main priorities, 

obviously keeping that arsenal safe, modernizing that arsenal, but 

prioritizing the funding and managing that funding in an appropriate way to clean up these waste sites is going to be very, very 

high on the priority list. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Governor. Based on the conversation and what I am hearing recently, I am going to try one 

more time. Do you support storing nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I am not going to have a definitive answer, 

you know. Absolutely no way in hell—I heard that from Senator 

Heller, Governor Sandoval, and you pretty loud and clear. But I 

think what you need to hear from me is I am going to be looking 

at the alternative ways to be able to address this issue. We have 

not for 30 years been able to address it, and if there are legitimate 

alternatives that keep the people of Nevada happy, well, that is 

even better. 

But I will not sit here in front of you in a committee hearing and 

tell you absolutely no way is Nevada going to be the recipient of 

any high-level waste. But what I will tell you is that we will work 

with you every day. As I think a number of the other senators have 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
58 

said, there are some other places in this country that are willing 

to have this conversation, and I think we need to have an open conversation. 

I was for bringing high-level waste into the State of Texas while 

I was the Governor. I seemed to manage to get reelected every time 

I ran. So, the issue is one that if we are wise, if we are thoughtful, 

if we are respectful, that we use good science, we can find a solution to this, Senator. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you. Another reason why I would 

love for you to come to Nevada, most people do not realize, there 

are 29 operating geothermal power plants in Nevada right now, 

employing potentially 6,375 individuals both directly and indirectly 

with jobs. We have been able to do so and create these job-producing clean energy power plants with the support of DOE’s Geothermal Technologies Office. What I would like to know is will you 

commit to pushing for adequate funding for the Geothermal Technology Office to continue researching geothermal energy innovations? 

Mr. PERRY. All-of-the-above, Senator. I think, you know, ‘‘all-ofthe-above’’ means ‘‘all-of-the-above.’’ 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. So, that is a yes. 

Mr. PERRY. Where you and I will probably have more pointed 

conversation is ‘‘adequate,’’ the word ‘‘adequate.’’ As I shared in my 

remarks earlier, prioritization and good management of budgets 

can go a long way. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Good. There is another project that is on 

the horizon called the FORGE Lab Project, and Fallon is a potential host for it. I would ask for your commitment and support in 

considering that as well, continuing to support those types of 

projects. 

Mr. PERRY. As I have become more knowledgeable of that operation there. My son-in-law has been at Fallon a few times, so he 

can easily point it out to me. 

Senator CORTEZ MASTO. Thank you, Governor. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Franken. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. Governor, as you know, two-thirds 

of the Department of Energy budget is dedicated toward our nuclear weapons program. Now, the United States already has the 

world’s most formidable nuclear arsenal. We currently maintain a 

force of approximately 4,000 nuclear weapons, a number that is 

much bigger than we need to maintain an effective deterrent. Yet 

we are on track to spend more than $1 trillion over the next three 

decades to sustain, replace, and refurbish delivery systems, warheads, and their supporting infrastructure. 

This plan was launched in a different budget era, and I can tell 

you that numerous very distinguished national security experts believe that this investment will significantly hamper the ability of 

the United States to respond to conventional and unconventional 

threats that we may face. If you are confirmed, would you be open 

to altering the pace and scope of the current modernization plans 

if it is clear that significant taxpayer savings can be achieved while 

still meeting the deterrent requirements? 

Mr. PERRY. Senator, I will address your remarks by saying that 

I understand my role as being the Secretary of Energy of being the 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
59 

manager of that agency. From my perspective, the issues that you 

bring forward, which are legitimate issues for us to talk about as 

a country, but those will lie in your purview and the Congress 

making the decisions, I would suggest, relative to the numbers, 

partly by the funding stream and what have you. So, I will be following the statutes and the laws that the United States Congress 

put in place relative to those issues. 

Senator FRANKEN. Well, you may have influence in this debate, 

so just let me alert you to this. These are weapons we are never 

going to use, we hope, and $1 trillion over 30 years—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir, real money. 

Senator FRANKEN. Yes. While we are on the topic of nuclear 

weapons, I want to turn to the Iran deal. As you know, your predecessor, Dr. Moniz, played a key part in negotiating the Iran deal 

and its nuclear limits, which have blocked Iran’s potential to amass 

nuclear material for a nuclear weapon. 

In a January 2nd, 2017 letter to President-elect Trump, 37 of the 

nation’s top scientists wrote that, ‘‘In sum, the JCPOA has dramatically reduced the risk that Iran could suddenly produce significant quantities of nuclear weapons material.’’ They concluded that 

their ‘‘technical judgment is that the multilateral JCPOA provides 

a strong bulwark against an Iranian nuclear weapons program,’’ 

and urged Trump ‘‘to preserve this critical U.S. strategic asset.’’ 

Specifically, as a result of the Iran deal, Iran’s uranium stockpile 

was cut by 97 percent to 300 kilograms, a fraction of the amount 

needed for a single nuclear weapon, with further enrichment. Iran 

reduced its installed centrifuges by two-thirds. Iran’s nuclear enrichment level is now capped at 3.67 percent, way below weapons 

grade. The core of the Iraq reactor was destroyed, and Iran will redesign the facility so that it will not produce weapons grade plutonium. 

Given the nonproliferation benefits of the JCPOA, as Secretary 

of Energy, I hope that you will make a real effort to talk to the 

people in our national security community who support the deal. I 

hope you will speak with the Israeli military and intelligence community because I think they will tell you that this is not just in 

American national interest, but also in the interest of Israeli national security. I would urge you to advise the President-elect to 

not get out of this deal. I think that would be bad for a country. 

The other P5+1 countries are going to be staying in it anyway. As 

Energy Secretary you will have the President’s ear on this, so I just 

want to make a pitch to you—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator FRANKEN [continuing]. To keep us in the Iran deal. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Just as a response, sir, I think nonproliferation is a good thing. In a general sense, I have not had a classified 

briefing yet. Until I am confirmed, and I certainly would ask each 

of you for your support on that, but until I am confirmed, and I 

have not had that classified briefing, I am not going to be as knowledgeable about this Iranian deal with specificity. 

But to say that if DOE has a role, and there may be a role that 

we have to play, and, again, I have not had that classified briefing, 

to make sure that the Iranians are living up to it, I think all of 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
60 

us can say that we want the Iranians to live up to the deal. And 

so, message delivered, sir. 

Senator FRANKEN. Thank you. Thank you, Governor. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator King. 

Senator KING. Thank you. On that point, I appreciate your comments, and I think one of the important roles that the Department 

of Energy has is monitoring and working with the intelligence 

agencies to be sure that Iran is living up to the deal. I know that 

is a very important responsibility. In terms of the arrangement 

itself, I view it as the fact that Iran has gotten their benefits from 

the deal, which were the release of the sanctions. Now the burdens, 

which are a 10-year or longer tamping down of their centrifuges, 

enrichment, and all of that, we would only be hurting ourselves if 

we terminated the deal because they would have gotten what they 

wanted, and then we would have released them from the restrictions of the agreement. 

Two things, very short, and all you need to do is say ‘‘yes’’’ twice. 

[Laughter.] 

One of them is, as all of my colleagues have—— 

Mr. PERRY. Sounds like a wedding. 

Senator KING. Yes, exactly. [Laughter.] 

In your case, it appears to have worked out beautifully. 

Mr. PERRY. It sure did. 

Senator KING. Is to invite you to Maine, particularly the University of Maine. Our university has a relationship, as you mentioned—you talked about Texas Tech—to the Department of Energy labs, particularly Oak Ridge. In fact, Senator Collins and I are 

going to be there next week, a week from tomorrow, with people 

from Oak Ridge. It is an amazing engineering school and engineering facility. Offshore wind, testing facility, nanotechnology, 3D 

printing. I think you would find it very illuminating. We would love 

to have you come up. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator KING. If you want to come in more, like, June or July 

than February, I will accept that. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Thank you. Yes, sir. I will be there, Senator. 

Senator KING. That was the right answer. The second—the issue, 

I just want to commend to you, we have talked a lot today about 

energy sources. One of the most interesting developments in energy 

in the last few years is what is called distributed energy, which is 

homes making their own energy, storage, demand response, energy 

efficiency. By the way, the cheapest, cleanest kilowatt hour of all 

is the one we do not use. And so, there is enormous potential there. 

The Department has been doing research, and I just hope you 

will continue to pay attention to that as part of the all-of-the-above 

strategy includes distributed energy and energy that is produced at 

the homeowner level or at the factory level, but also things like efficiency, storage, demand response. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. Senator, when you talk about the 

connectivity issue and the distributive issue, are you talking about 

issues like smart meters? 

Senator KING. Exactly. 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator KING. Enormous potential there. 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
61 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. We had a program in my home state of 

which we helped fund and gave incentives to the installation of 

those, and it has been quite successful from my memory. Those are 

the types of thoughtful engagement, the type, frankly, of investments that I have historically been very supportive of. 

Senator KING. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. 

Senator KING. Thank you very much, Governor, by the way—— 

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir. 

Senator KING [continuing]. For your testimony and patience—— 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Governor. 

Senator KING [continuing]. Over a long morning. Thank you. 

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, and we do appreciate your endurance, your patience. We were just visiting here about how long 

these nominations hearings go, but they are longest for those sitting on that side of the table. 

Mr. PERRY. Yeah. 

Senator KING. And we appreciate it. 

Mr. PERRY. You are welcome. 

The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions. Senator Cantwell 

had a clarification that she wanted to make. Senator Cantwell. 

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you. I am going to file a couple of 

questions for the record—— 

Mr. PERRY. Sure. 

Senator CANTWELL [continuing]. On smart buildings and energy 

efficiency. These have been very, very successful programs that 

have saved millions of dollars for those who own the building facilities and for homeowners. We definitely want to get some responses 

on that. 

But I was out while you were speaking with Senator Stabenow. 

I was running back and forth between the Treasury nominee hearing and this hearing. I think you gave her a commitment on funding the Office of Electricity, but I just want to make sure, given all 

the discussion we have had this morning and in the press, that you 

understand that office’s capabilities on storage, on cyber, on transforming the grid, on all of those things, and are committed to that 

office. 

Mr. PERRY. The most important aspects of the Agency, Senator, 

cyber. I think—I hope I have made a deep impact on the committee 

about finding the solutions, particularly on the cyber side. There is 

some work that we are going to be able to do on the supercomputing side as well, so—— 

Senator CANTWELL. The Office of Electricity you support wholeheartedly, I guess? 

Mr. PERRY. You know, whatever the name of the committee or— 

excuse me—the name of the agency needs to be. Sometimes there 

is renaming, and I do not intend to do that off the top of my head. 

But to those—to those functions that are under that agency today, 

there is great support in general for that. As we dive into this 

agency more, obviously working with your office and the rest of the 

committee, I look forward to lots of successes. 

Senator, if I might, just thank you for the opportunity to be here. 

You said something about the length of these things, but this is important work, and this is important business, and this is an imporVerDate Sep 11 2014 01:09 Mar 02, 2017 Jkt 023616 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\E616.XXX E616

rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
62 

tant agency. If I am so fortunate as to be confirmed, I hope I get 

the support of each and every one of these senators as we go forward. 

I am committed to working with you, to being a partner in this 

process, and to truly making America being an energy independent 

place that has an extraordinary future for our children, for our 

country, for our environment, and, in turn, the world. 

The CHAIRMAN. Well said. We thank you, Governor Perry. We appreciate, again, the time that you have given us today, the testimony that you have placed before the record, your willingness to 

answer the questions of virtually every member on the committee. 

I think we only had two members that were not able to be in attendance today. 

We will allow for questions to be submitted for the record. That 

deadline for committee members is close of business today. We 

would certainly encourage submission prior to that if at all possible. 

I will also ask unanimous consent to submit several letters of 

support for Governor Perry for the record of this hearing. I would 

ask that members submit any of their own to our Chief Clerk, 

Darla Ripchensky. 

Again, Governor, thank you. I would also like to thank your family that has been there, not only supporting you behind you in this 

hearing, but as they have supported you throughout your professional career and the leadership that you have provided to the people of the State of Texas, and now your willingness to step forward. 

I also want to acknowledge the sacrifice and the service of Mr. 

Luttrell. We appreciate that. We certainly honor you and all those 

who have served. 

With that, again, thank you, and the committee stands adjourned. 

Mr. PERRY. Thank you, Senator. 

[Whereupon, at 1:01 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
(63) 

APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGS
64 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 158 here 23616.004
65 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 159 here 23616.005
66 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 160 here 23616.006
67 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 161 here 23616.007
68 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 162 here 23616.008
69 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 163 here 23616.009
70 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 164 here 23616.010
71 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 165 here 23616.011
72 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 166 here 23616.012
73 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 167 here 23616.013
74 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 168 here 23616.014
75 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 169 here 23616.015
76 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 170 here 23616.016
77 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 171 here 23616.017
78 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 172 here 23616.018
79 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 173 here 23616.019
80 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 174 here 23616.020
81 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 175 here 23616.021
82 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 176 here 23616.022
83 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 177 here 23616.023
84 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 178 here 23616.024
85 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 179 here 23616.025
86 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 180 here 23616.026
87 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 181 here 23616.027
88 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 182 here 23616.028
89 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 183 here 23616.029
90 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 184 here 23616.030
91 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 185 here 23616.031
92 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 186 here 23616.032
93 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 187 here 23616.033
94 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 188 here 23616.034
95 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 189 here 23616.035
96 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 190 here 23616.036
97 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 191 here 23616.037
98 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 192 here 23616.038
99 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 193 here 23616.039
100 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 194 here 23616.040
101 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 195 here 23616.041
102 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 196 here 23616.042
103 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 197 here 23616.043
104 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 198 here 23616.044
105 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 199 here 23616.045
106 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 200 here 23616.046
107 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 201 here 23616.047
108 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 202 here 23616.048
109 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 203 here 23616.049
110 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 204 here 23616.050
111 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 205 here 23616.051
112 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 206 here 23616.052
113 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 207 here 23616.053
114 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 208 here 23616.054
115 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 209 here 23616.055
116 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 210 here 23616.056
117 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 211 here 23616.057
118 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 212 here 23616.058
119 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 213 here 23616.059
120 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 214 here 23616.060
121 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 215 here 23616.061
122 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 216 here 23616.062
123 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 217 here 23616.063
124 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 218 here 23616.064
125 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 219 here 23616.065
126 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 220 here 23616.066
127 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 221 here 23616.067
128 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 222 here 23616.068
129 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 223 here 23616.069
130 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 224 here 23616.070
131 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 225 here 23616.071
132 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 226 here 23616.072
133 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 227 here 23616.073
134 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 228 here 23616.074
135 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 229 here 23616.075
136 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 230 here 23616.076
137 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 231 here 23616.077
138 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 232 here 23616.078
139 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 233 here 23616.079
140 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 234 here 23616.080
141 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 235 here 23616.081
142 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 236 here 23616.082
143 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 237 here 23616.083
144 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 238 here 23616.084
145 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 239 here 23616.085
146 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 240 here 23616.086
147 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 241 here 23616.087
148 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 242 here 23616.088
149 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 243 here 23616.089
150 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 244 here 23616.090
151 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 245 here 23616.091
152 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 246 here 23616.092
153 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 247 here 23616.093
154 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 248 here 23616.094
155 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 249 here 23616.095
156 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 250 here 23616.096
157 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 251 here 23616.097
158 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 252 here 23616.098
159 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 253 here 23616.099
160 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 254 here 23616.100
161 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 255 here 23616.101
162 


rfrederick on DSKBCBPHB2PROD with HEARINGSInsert graphic folio 256 here 23616.102