VIRGINIA:

IN THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

IN RE: JAMES JUAQUIN JORDAN

CASE NO. FAA-2015-0205

_____________________________________________________

HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN TUESDAY, AUGUST 4, 2015 10:00 A.M. HISTORIC JORDAN SPRINGS 1160 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD STEPHENSON, VIRGINIA 22656IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 2

1 APPEARANCES 2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF, 3 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: 4 REBECCA HOLMES, ESQUIRE 5 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 6 2601 MEACHAM BOULEVARD 7 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76137 8 TELEPHONE: 817.222.5064 9 FACSIMILE: 817.222.5945 10 11 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT, 12 JAMES JUAQUIN JORDAN: 13 PRO SE 14 11980 CARRIAGE PARK LANE 15 JOHNS CREEK, GEORGIA 30097 16 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 EMILY TUELLER, ESQUIRE 19 CADE MILLER, ESQUIRE 20 21 22 23 24 25IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 3

1 HEARING 2 TUESDAY, AUGUST 4, 2015 3 10:00 A.M. 4 THE COURT: Good morning, this is Judge 5 Sullivan. Do I have Ms. Rebecca Holmes on the line? 6 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: And Mr. James Juaquin Jordan? 8 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I should also have an 10 Andrea Mikus from Veteran Reporters, Inc. 11 COURT REPORTER: Yes, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. And Ms. Mikus, it's my 13 understanding you've been advised as to the two 14 observers who are present as well and the names and 15 spelling of those people. 16 COURT REPORTER: Yes, I have, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Are you ready, Madam 18 Court Reporter? 19 COURT REPORTER: Yes, Judge, I am. 20 THE COURT: Okay. We're on the record in 21 the matter of James Juaquin Jordan. This is Docket 22 Number FAA-2015-0205. Today is Tuesday, August 4, 23 2015, and the parties have convened by telephone for a 24 litigation scheduling conference. 25 The Federal Aviation Administration, whichIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 4

1 I'll hereinafter refer to as the FAA, is represented 2 by its attorney of record, Ms. Rebecca Holmes. Also 3 present with Ms. Holmes are two observers, both 4 attorneys, a Ms. Emily Tueller and a Ms. Cade Miller. 5 Ms. Holmes, am I correct in saying it's a 6 Ms. Cade Miller? 7 MS. HOLMES: No, Your Honor, it is a mister. 8 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. My apologies 9 to counsel. Mr. Cade Miller is an FAA attorney 10 present as an observer. Also present is the 11 respondent, Mr. James Juaquin Jordan, who's 12 representing himself. 13 Good morning to you all. 14 MR. JORDAN: Good morning. 15 MS. HOLMES: Good morning, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I'll note just in terms of a 17 general history that there was a May 27, 2015 order 18 accepting respondent's admissions and granting in 19 part, denying in part, the FAA's motion for decision. 20 Shortly thereafter on June 2nd, 2015, there was an 21 order setting Rule 16 litigation scheduling conference 22 and directing the parties to confer and file a Rule 26 23 proposed discovery plan. As a result, on July 24, 24 2015, the parties filed a joint report of a Rule 26 25 conference and discovery plan. And we're going toIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 5

1 talk about that this morning. 2 So, what I'm going to do is I will start 3 addressing some questions to the FAA attorney. Just 4 so that you know, Mr. Jordan, typically in any kind of 5 legal proceeding such as this one, the Court always 6 looks to the person or the party that has filed the 7 complaint and addresses questions first to them and 8 then addresses the same or similar questions to the 9 respondent. So, you're welcome to sit and listen and 10 take notes if you like so that when I turn to you, 11 ultimately, you can tell me if you agree, disagree, or 12 have other things to say. Do you have any questions 13 about that process before I turn back to Ms. Holmes? 14 MR. JORDAN: Not right now, Your Honor, no 15 questions. 16 THE COURT: Okay, very good. 17 Ms. Holmes, let's talk about this joint 18 report. And I'm going to ask you a couple questions. 19 You indicated on page one of the two-page report under 20 paragraph B as in boy that the FAA plan to conduct 21 discovery regarding the financial status of Mr. 22 Jordan, can you tell me what, if any, discovery 23 remains to be done regarding that particular issue? 24 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. I have 25 requested from Mr. Jordan on numerous occasions a copyIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 6

1 of his tax returns in order to assess the ability to 2 pay the fine, and I have been unable to receive those 3 from him. So, I was going to ask for those in 4 discovery. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything else 6 that you're thinking about asking for in terms of 7 financial information? 8 MS. HOLMES: Not at this time. I think that 9 information should be sufficient for me to base, you 10 know, the ability to pay the fine. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MS. HOLMES: It's generally what we use. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And right now, as I look 14 at this case, my understanding that the FAA's case 15 currently is limited in nature because of the prior 16 orders issued, and the only matter that's still in 17 dispute between the parties is the FAA's proposed 18 penalty of $1,000; is that correct? 19 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Let's talk about page two 21 of the two-page plan. There are a variety of 22 different things that you've indicated that I need to 23 chat with you about. And I want to turn your 24 attention first to the hearing site, which is 25 paragraph D as in dog. You indicate the parties wereIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 7

1 unable to reach an agreement as to the hearing 2 location. Can you tell me what the dispute is about? 3 MS. HOLMES: Well, Your Honor, I suggested 4 as Agency counsel that the hearing be in the 5 Dallas/Fort Worth area based on the fact that the 6 situation occurred at Dallas/Fort Worth airport and 7 that the Agency is located in the Dallas/Forth Worth 8 area, and we do have more traveling people that need 9 to come. We have witnesses that we will have to bring 10 as well as myself. So, I suggested that we have it 11 here for those reasons, and Mr. Jordan wanted it in 12 Atlanta because that's where he is based. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's talk, then, 14 about what witness or witnesses that the FAA thinks it 15 needs in order to talk solely about the proposed civil 16 penalty. How many witnesses are you planning to call 17 for that type of limited issue? 18 MS. HOLMES: Right now, I believe there will 19 be one. I, it's possible I will have two. One that 20 will be called is the manager of my hazardous 21 materials division, and the second possibility would 22 be the inspector that wrote the report. 23 THE COURT: What inspector? 24 MS. HOLMES: The, the inspector that wrote 25 the report based on the filing by American Airlines.IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 8

1 His name is Paul Klimas. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you spell that, 3 please? 4 MS. HOLMES: Sure. Paul is, P-A-U-L. 5 Klimas is, K-L-I-M-A-S. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MS. HOLMES: And would you like the 8 manager's name as well? 9 THE COURT: That would be helpful, thank 10 you. 11 MS. HOLMES: It's Bryan, B-R-Y-A-N, 12 Buchanan, B-U-C-H-A-N-A-N. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Okay, and how much time, 14 if this case goes to hearing and there are no further 15 settlement of issues, do you think might, it might 16 take for you to present all of the testimony and 17 documentary evidence in your side of the case? 18 MS. HOLMES: Less than half a day. 19 THE COURT: When you say "less than half a 20 day," how much time are you thinking? 21 MS. HOLMES: I would imagine two hours at 22 most. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I'll look at a couple 24 other things, and then I'm going to chat with Mr. 25 Jordan. Ms. Holmes, let me ask you this. In terms ofIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 9

1 discovery that you may have already given to Mr. 2 Jordan, have you provided him with that particular 3 package of information, the FAA's sanction guidance 4 that you use to look at different individual 5 circumstances and come to a decision about what the 6 FAA proposes, at least? 7 MS. HOLMES: I have not requested any 8 discovery from Mr. Jordan at this time. I will be 9 doing... 10 THE COURT: Well, I have, I have, that 11 wasn't my question. My question is, what discovery 12 have you provided to him, and did that discovery 13 include a copy of the FAA's sanction guidance 14 information? 15 MS. HOLMES: I have not provided any 16 discovery as none has been requested. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Okay, and Ms. Holmes, is 18 there anything else that you want to talk about in 19 terms of your joint report before I turn to Mr. 20 Jordan? 21 MS. HOLMES: I do not believe so, Your 22 Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Mr. Jordan, let me talk with you for a 25 little bit. And what I'm going to do first andIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 10

1 foremost is, is gauge a little bit about your level of 2 expertise in addressing these kinds of matters. And I 3 do so simply so that I have an idea of how much you 4 know and how much I might need to tell you about. So, 5 in terms of your general past experience in 6 litigation, can you tell me if this is your very first 7 time in dealing with something like this or if you've 8 been in court before. And if so, were you a litigant 9 or a witness or an observer? Can you give me some 10 idea of your level of comfort with these kinds of 11 things? 12 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor, I can. I have 13 never been in court before, so this would be my very 14 first experience. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And have you ever had a 16 law course or, you know, an introduction to law in 17 school by any chance? 18 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, when I was in 19 college, I did take a law course, and I am in the 20 insurance business. And one of the continuing 21 education classes I took maybe 10, 15 years ago had to 22 do with contract law. But that's the only experience 23 I have. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that's helpful. 25 So, do you have a college degree?IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 11

1 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Any, any formal education 3 beyond a college degree, such as a masters, a 4 doctorate, that kind of thing? Hello? Have I lost 5 everyone? 6 (WHEREUPON, a dial tone sounds.) 7 MS. HOLMES: The Agency is still here, Your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Jordan, are you still 10 present? Oh, dear. 11 Madam Court Reporter, are you still present? 12 COURT REPORTER: Yes, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 (WHEREUPON, a ringing sounds.) 15 MR. JORDAN: Hello? 16 THE COURT: Mr. Jordan, did we just lose 17 you? 18 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor, my phone, the 19 call was lost. 20 THE COURT: Okay, well, welcome back. 21 MR. JORDAN: Sorry about that. 22 THE COURT: Welcome back. 23 MR. JORDAN: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: The only thing that happened 25 while you were absent was me just finding out who wasIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 12

1 still on the phone, and you were the only one that was 2 lost, and now you're found. So, welcome back, and 3 let's continue. 4 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Just in terms of the question of 6 your education, and I'm asking you about your 7 education to gauge your ability to quickly understand 8 things. So, do you have any education beyond the 9 basic college degree? Do you have a masters, a 10 doctorate, anything like that? 11 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, I only have a four12 year bachelors degree, industrial management. 13 THE COURT: Well, that's nothing to sneeze 14 about, Mr. Jordan. I think that gives me an idea 15 about your ability. So, thank you. Let's talk, then, 16 about the Rule 26 joint report that Ms. Holmes and I 17 have already reviewed briefly. It indicates on page 18 one, under paragraph B as in boy, that you do not 19 intend to conduct any discovery. Do you know what 20 discovery is? 21 MR. JORDAN: I have a limited knowledge. I 22 think it is any items or information that would be 23 relevant to a hearing that you would want to view in 24 advance. 25 THE COURT: Correct, or to utilize toIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 13

1 prepare for a hearing. That's correct. And the, both 2 parties can engage in requesting information from each 3 other. The general rules also provide for certain 4 information to be disclosed without any request at 5 all. So, in this particular case, as you know, the 6 issue has been narrowed to what proposed civil 7 penalty, to what penalty should ultimately be imposed 8 for this HAZMAT violation. And because you're 9 representing yourself, you have the unique burden and 10 opportunity to speak on your own behalf and to act as 11 an attorney might act for your own interests. So, 12 perhaps what we should do just briefly is talk during 13 this litigation scheduling conference about what you 14 would ultimately like to see happen. Clearly the FAA 15 has put in writing that it wants to have a $1,000 16 penalty imposed, and you have disagreed with that. 17 So, knowing what you know now, and that may change 18 over time, but knowing what you know now, what is it 19 that you think you would ultimately like to see happen 20 in general in terms of your case here? 21 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, what I would like 22 to see is a lower penalty amount. In conversations 23 that I've had with attorney Holmes, I did indicate 24 that I would be willing to pay $500 to settle the 25 issue. However, if I recall, I think she said thatIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 14

1 the, there is a definite scale that the FAA uses and 2 that the $500 would not be acceptable. 3 THE COURT: And why, in your opinion, I'm 4 sorry, why, in your opinion, would the $500 be 5 acceptable? 6 MR. JORDAN: Based on my current financial 7 condition, I feel that that's a penalty that I could 8 afford that I could pay to address the issue. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Ms. Holmes has 10 indicated in this brief discussion we've had so far 11 that she's requested from you some tax returns and has 12 not received them. What, what is the impediment, if 13 any, for you to provide that to her informally? Is 14 this something you're not comfortable with or you 15 don't think should be part of this dialogue? What's 16 going on with that? 17 MR. JORDAN: A couple of things, Your Honor. 18 Number one, I am not comfortable with it. Number two, 19 I don't think it should be part of the dialogue. And 20 number three, the, the tax returns gives, I guess, a 21 financial picture of my income as well as taxes but, 22 to me, I'd like to view an instrument that basically 23 indicates what I bring in on a monthly basis versus 24 what I pay out to get a more accurate picture of my 25 current financial condition.IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 15

1 THE COURT: And what, what documentation, in 2 your opinion, would provide that more accurate 3 picture? 4 MR. JORDAN: I could list my current bills 5 and have those verified and as well as include my 6 monthly income so that one could see what's coming in 7 and, the amount, the amount of money that's coming in 8 and then what's going out in terms of monthly 9 expenses. 10 THE COURT: Okay. So, more like a financial 11 affidavit. 12 MR. JORDAN: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything else 14 that you can tell us that you think would be a more 15 fair picture than just a tax return that would be 16 helpful? 17 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, just the financial 18 affidavit is the only thing that I could think of at 19 this time. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And when Ms. Holmes and 21 you were previously talking about this particular case 22 and the financial data regarding the proposed civil 23 penalty that the FAA has recommended, at least, to 24 you, did she indicate when she was talking to you 25 about this scale that she was using, what that scaleIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 16

1 was and how it was being utilized? 2 MR. JORDAN: She did. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Let's assume, Mr. 4 Jordan, just for the sake of argument that the, that 5 you and your friend across the aisle, Ms. Holmes, do 6 not settle this case for whatever reason and you, you 7 end up going to a hearing. That puts us at page two 8 of the joint report, and I'm going to go to paragraph 9 D as in dog. What hearing location would you like to 10 have and why? 11 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, I would prefer the 12 hearing location be in Atlanta. The reason being is 13 that to travel to Dallas for a hearing would be a 14 financial hardship. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And aside from yourself, 16 who would you be calling as a witness regarding your 17 financial circumstances if there's no settlement? 18 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, I would have no 19 witnesses to call. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I would, I would 21 assume that you would be your primary witness. Would 22 that be correct? 23 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Why don't we do 25 this. I think it might work better in this particularIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 17

1 case, and I'm going to suggest this, and the parties 2 can think about it and then tell me their perspective. 3 It might work better if we take this in a two-step 4 basis. Typically what I do in these kinds of cases is 5 I set all the discovery deadlines, I set all the 6 summary judgment motion deadlines with a telephone 7 conference, and I set the hearing up. In this 8 particular case, it appears that the parties may 9 benefit just a little bit from a little additional 10 time before we do all of those things. And so, what 11 I'm going to suggest is that we set some dates for an 12 exchange of information so that the parties can 13 continue a little bit more in-depth discussion about 14 financial matters. 15 And then we can set a second litigation 16 conference if those discussions are not fruitful to 17 everyone's comfort level. And at the second 18 litigation conference, if there is still a need to set 19 a trial date, we can then set a motion date for the 20 venue that's in dispute, and I can talk a little bit 21 more about what would be needed in terms of a written 22 filing. And then we can also set a trial date for the 23 parties, because obviously setting the location of the 24 hearing is going to be very important in terms of the 25 costs for either party. But what I would anticipateIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 18

1 for the interim time period is a time for the, the 2 respondent to provide some financial information to 3 the FAA, and also for the FAA to provide some 4 information about the scale or standard it uses for 5 reaching its penalty proposal. I think it's very 6 important for both parties to be equally knowledgeable 7 about that, so, and it should be something that the 8 FAA could easily provide. So, and I'm, I'm thinking 9 perhaps a 60-day window between now and the next 10 teleconference so that if the parties do exchange 11 information and talk and then find that they're not as 12 far apart as they thought, a settlement could issue 13 between now and the next date. If 60 days is not a 14 long-enough time, we could stretch that a little bit 15 depending on the parties' other responsibilities. 16 So, Ms. Holmes, what are your thoughts about 17 that suggestion? 18 MS. HOLMES: Sixty days is plenty of time 19 for the Agency, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 Mr. Jordan, how about you? 22 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, 60 days works for 23 me as well. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's take a look at 25 our calendars first, and we'll find a second date toIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 19

1 reconvene. If the parties do settle, and that's 2 possible, then you're welcome to notify me as soon as 3 possible, and then I will strike the second date from 4 my calendar and issue an order. If I don't hear from 5 you, I'll presume that your discussions are ongoing or 6 perhaps have not been fruitful, at which point I look 7 forward to talking with you both again. 8 So, today is August 4, 2015. We're looking 9 at approximately the first of October. So, I am going 10 to be in Seattle the first part of October, and then I 11 will be in Ohio. I'm looking for a good date. 12 October. How about, how about Wednesday, October 14, 13 2015? Ms. Holmes, do you have that date open? 14 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Jordan, would that date be 16 open on your calendar as well? 17 MR. JORDAN: I am available, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And I'll stay with you 19 for a moment, Mr. Jordan. Would 10:00 a.m. eastern 20 time still work for you? 21 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: And, Ms. Holmes, I note that 23 you're in Texas. What time is it in Texas right now? 24 MS. HOLMES: We're just an hour before. 25 THE COURT: Okay. So, would 10:00 a.m.IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 20

1 eastern time be acceptable for you on October 14? 2 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Let's plan on October 14, 4 2015 at 10:00 a.m. eastern time for our second 5 conference, and that means that we're going to be 6 talking about some deadlines for the exchange of 7 information. 8 Ms. Holmes, when do you think you can 9 provide Mr. Jordan a copy of the relevant portions of 10 the FAA order, I think it's 2150 that talks about 11 sanction guidance? 12 MS. HOLMES: I, I can have that to him this 13 week. 14 THE COURT: Okay. When you say "this week," 15 do you have a particular day in mind? 16 MS. HOLMES: I should be able to have that 17 by Thursday. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't I just say by 19 August 7, 2015 close of business. 20 MS. HOLMES: Okay. 21 THE COURT: And Mr. Jordan, what that is, is 22 it's a document that is utilized by FAA attorneys and 23 other people at the FAA to help them come to some idea 24 about what they think would be a good penalty. And 25 you should have a copy of that to take a look at.IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 21

1 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: You're welcome. Now, Mr. 3 Jordan, the FAA has indicated it would like to have a 4 copy of your tax return. And before I turn to you, 5 Ms. Holmes, did you request a certain year for that 6 tax return or number of years? 7 MS. HOLMES: I requested three years. 8 THE COURT: So, that being 2014, 2013, 2012? 9 MS. HOLMES: Yes, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 Mr. Jordan, turning back to you, do you have 12 copies of those tax returns that you might be able to 13 offer? 14 MR. JORDAN: I do have copies of the tax 15 returns, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to suggest 17 this, and I'm going to explain why I suggest it. You, 18 you may want to give those to Ms. Holmes if you are 19 interested in a meaningful discussion about lowering 20 the proposed penalty. In addition to those tax 21 returns, you may want to provide a financial 22 declaration or a statement about your finances that 23 gives a fuller and more complete picture of what you 24 can afford to pay. The reason I say that is because 25 in these particular circumstances, you as theIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 22

1 responding party have the burden of proof to show that 2 you cannot afford the proposed penalty. So, if you 3 proceeded to a hearing before me, you would have to 4 show documentation to support whatever testimony you 5 gave about your inability to pay. And that particular 6 type of information is called an affirmative defense. 7 It means that you have the initial burden of proof to 8 show through testimony and documentation that the 9 proposed fine that the FAA has requested is too high. 10 And I often have people come to the hearing and come 11 and sit in the witness chair and testify that they 12 cannot afford a certain fine, but then they don't 13 bring any documentation to corroborate their 14 testimony. And in these types of cases, it has been 15 ruled by the FAA administrator who has appellate 16 authority that there must be documentation to support 17 the testimony. And the reason that is is because you 18 are the only one who has access to that information. 19 And so, you cannot withhold the information and then 20 tell everybody to just trust what you're saying, 21 because there are people, unfortunately, who misuse 22 that custody of documentation. So if, in fact, you 23 cannot afford to pay, you have the affirmative 24 obligation to also prove it with documentation. Do 25 you have questions about that, about what I've justIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 23

1 explained? 2 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, I do not have any 3 questions. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Now, if you don't want to 5 provide financial documentation, and there are people 6 who do not want to do that for whatever reason, you 7 don't have to. That's completely up to you. But I 8 can tell you that I, at a hearing, would not be able 9 to grant your request to lower the fine on the grounds 10 of inability to pay, because I'm bound by the 11 appellate decisions. And so, you, we all are bound, I 12 should say. You, you would not prevail on that matter 13 on that ground if you withheld documentation. 14 Now, there are other ways to challenge the 15 proposed civil penalty, and the sanction guidance that 16 Ms. Holmes is going to send you provides some samples 17 of different ways to challenge it. But those are, 18 those are not the same as simply saying that you can't 19 afford to pay. So, if, if you think you have a good 20 basis for saying that you can't afford to pay, and it 21 sounds like you, you do, you know, based on what 22 you've said today, then the way to do that is to 23 provide documentation if you have, it's up to you to 24 decide whether or not to do that. If, if you choose 25 not to do it, then you should be looking at theseIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 24

1 other ways of challenging or attacking, if you will, 2 the proposed civil penalty. And sometimes those, 3 those alternate challenges work, and sometimes they 4 don't. So, I leave it to you to think about that and 5 to utilize this 60-day window that I'm giving you and 6 Ms. Holmes to your benefit, if you can. 7 Let's talk about your time period for giving 8 your materials, whatever you choose to send to Ms. 9 Holmes. Ms. Holmes currently is going to send you the 10 FAA documentation by this Friday, August 7, 2015. 11 Would you be able to get your materials together, 12 whatever you choose to send, by, Say, August 21, 2015, 13 or would you need a little extra time? 14 MR. JORDAN: Your Honor, if I could have 15 until August the 24th, which I think, yes, August 16 24th. That would work better for me. 17 THE COURT: Okay, then your deadline is 18 August 24, 2015. 19 Now, Ms. Holmes, turning to you, have you 20 and Mr. Jordan been utilizing informal methods of 21 communication such as fax or email, and do you want to 22 continue doing that, or would you rather use the U.S. 23 mail? Do you have a preference? 24 MS. HOLMES: I, we have been using email, 25 Your Honor, and I do prefer that.IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 25

1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 Mr. Jordan, is that acceptable to you for 3 these informal communications? 4 MR. JORDAN: Yes, Your Honor, that's 5 acceptable. 6 THE COURT: Okay. So noted. All right. 7 Ms. Holmes, turning to you, I, I have your 8 joint report. I can continue to use it in October 9 2015 if you and Mr. Jordan reappear before me. Is 10 there anything else today that you would like to talk 11 about in behalf of your client that we have not yet 12 covered? 13 MS. HOLMES: No, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 Mr. Jordan, turning to you, same question, 16 sir, on your own behalf. Anything we need to address, 17 any question you might have? 18 MR. JORDAN: No, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I will note that I'll 20 send out a brief order codifying in writing the dates 21 that we've talked about and what's going to happen. 22 I'll also include in that order the name and phone 23 number of the attorney advisor who works with me on 24 these cases. If you have procedural questions between 25 now and October 14, 2015, you're welcome to give him aIN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 26

1 call. If you need my assistance for any reason prior 2 to October 14, 2015, Mr. Cody Smith (phonetic), who's 3 the attorney who works with me, would be happy to help 4 set up another telephone conference for you if that's 5 the case. 6 With that, it sounds like the parties are 7 well on their way for exchange of information. I'm 8 going to thank you both very much for your time and 9 attention today. It appears our business is complete. 10 We can go off the record, and I wish you all a good 11 day. Thank you. 12 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 13 MS. HOLMES: Thank you, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 (WHEREUPON, the Hearing was concluded at 10:35 a.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 27

1 STIPULATION 2 3 The foregoing matter was taken on the date, and at 4 the time and place set out on the title page hereof. 5 6 It was requested that the matter be taken by the 7 reporter and that the same be reduced to typewritten 8 form. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 251 2 3 4

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25 24 23 22 **CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER AND SECURE ENCRYPTED**

I, **Andrea F. Mikus** , do hereby certify that the foregoing matter was reported by stenographic and/or mechanical means, that same was reduced to written form, that the transcript prepared by me or under my direction, is a true and accurate record of same to the best of my

This transcript and certificate have been digitally the action filed or its outcome. knowledge and ability; that there is no relation nor

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Court Reporter **SIGNATURE AND DELIVERY OF CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT**

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**Andrea F. Mikus** 11TH AUGUST 2015IN RE: JAMES J. JORDAN August 4, 2015 VR # [JobRef] Page 29

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