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i 

20–822 2017

[H.A.S.C. No. 114–135] 

PRESIDENT OBAMA’S NUCLEAR 

DETERRENT MODERNIZATION PLANS AND 

BUDGETS: THE MILITARY REQUIREMENTS 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON STRATEGIC FORCES 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

HEARING HELD 

JULY 14, 2016 
(II) 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON STRATEGIC FORCES 

MIKE ROGERS, Alabama, Chairman 

TRENT FRANKS, Arizona 

DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado, Vice Chair 

MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado 

MO BROOKS, Alabama 

JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma 

J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia 

ROB BISHOP, Utah 

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio 

JOHN FLEMING, Louisiana 

JIM COOPER, Tennessee 

LORETTA SANCHEZ, California 

RICK LARSEN, Washington 

JOHN GARAMENDI, California 

MARK TAKAI, Hawaii 

BRAD ASHFORD, Nebraska 

PETE AGUILAR, California 

DREW WALTER, Professional Staff Member 

LEONOR TOMERO, Counsel 

MIKE GANCIO, Clerk 
(III) 

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS 

Rogers, Hon. Mike, a Representative from Alabama, Chairman, Subcommittee 

on Strategic Forces ............................................................................................... 1 

WITNESSES 

Haney, ADM Cecil D., USN, Commander, U.S. Strategic Command ................. 4 

Klotz, Lt Gen Frank, USAF (Ret.), Administrator, National Nuclear Security 

Administration ..................................................................................................... 1 

Rand, Gen Robin, USAF, Commander, Air Force Global Strike Command ....... 5 

Scher, Hon. Robert, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans, and 

Capabilities, Department of Defense .................................................................. 3 

APPENDIX 

PREPARED STATEMENTS: 

Cooper, Hon. Jim, a Representative from Tennessee, Ranking Member, 

Subcommittee on Strategic Forces .............................................................. 42 

Haney, ADM Cecil D. ....................................................................................... 58 

Klotz, Lt Gen Frank ......................................................................................... 44 

Rand, Gen Robin ............................................................................................... 74 

Rogers, Hon. Mike ............................................................................................ 39 

Scher, Hon. Robert ........................................................................................... 52 

DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD: 

By Mr. Cooper: 

Henry Kissinger-Brent Scowcroft op ed ...................................................... 94 

By Mr. Franks: 

Statements on the importance of the LRSO ............................................... 96 

By Mr. Garamendi: 

Former Secretary of Defense William Perry article ................................... 100 

Ranking Member Adam Smith article ........................................................ 98 

By Mr. Rogers: 

Letter to Secretary of Defense Carter from Senators ................................ 92 

President Obama letter to Senator Alexander ........................................... 91 

President Obama message to Senate .......................................................... 89 

WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING THE HEARING: 

Mr. Zinke ........................................................................................................... 105 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING: 

Mr. Aguilar ........................................................................................................ 118 

Mr. Cooper ........................................................................................................ 111 

Mr. Garamendi ................................................................................................. 115 

Mr. Rogers ......................................................................................................... 109 

Dr. Wenstrup .................................................................................................... 119 

(1) 

PRESIDENT OBAMA’S NUCLEAR DETERRENT MODERNIZATION PLANS AND BUDGETS: THE MILITARY REQUIREMENTS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON STRATEGIC FORCES, Washington, DC, Thursday, July 14, 2016. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:33 p.m., in room 

2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mike Rogers (chairman 

of the subcommittee) presiding. 

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE ROGERS, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM ALABAMA, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

STRATEGIC FORCES 

Mr. ROGERS. The House Armed Services Subcommittee on Strategic Forces will come to order. We welcome everybody to our hearing today. It is a hearing titled, ‘‘President Obama’s Nuclear Modernization Plans and Budgets: The Military Requirements.’’ 

I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here and the time 

it took for them to prepare for this hearing. It takes a lot of time. 

I know it is aggravating, but it is very helpful to us. And we really 

appreciate your service to our country, but also the time and energy it took to prepare for this hearing and your making yourself 

available. 

Because of scheduling, we have kind of gotten in a time crunch. 

So the ranking member and I have agreed to dispense with our 

opening statements. And we would advise the witnesses that your 

opening statements will be accepted for the record and ask each of 

you if you could spend about 3 minutes just summarizing the broad 

text so we can get to the meat of the hearing, which is really the 

Q&A. 

So our witnesses today are the Honorable Frank Klotz, Administrator, National Nuclear Security Administration; the Honorable 

Robert Scher, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans 

and Capabilities; Admiral Cecil Haney, Commander, U.S. Strategic 

Command; and General Robin Rand, Commander, Air Force Global 

Strike Command. 

And with that, General Klotz, you are recognized for 3 minutes. 

[The prepared statements of Mr. Rogers and Mr. Cooper can be 

found in the Appendix beginning on page 39.] 

STATEMENT OF LT GEN FRANK KLOTZ, USAF (RET.), ADMINISTRATOR, NATIONAL NUCLEAR SECURITY ADMINISTRATION 

General KLOTZ. Thank you Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member 

Cooper, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the op-
2 

portunity to discuss the nuclear modernization program. This committee’s leadership and its steadfast support for nuclear security 

enterprise have been vital to the Nation’s ability to maintain a 

credible deterrent and a safe, secure, and effective nuclear arsenal. 

The nuclear deterrent is a foundational capability of U.S. national security. Although it has been decades since the end of the 

Cold War, our nuclear enterprise continues to play an essential role 

in preventing conflict and deterring attacks upon the United 

States, our Armed Forces, and our allies and friends, in an increasingly complex and unpredictable international environment. 

We must, therefore, maintain nuclear deterrent capabilities, not 

only for ourselves, but also for our allies and partners around the 

world. As NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] reaffirmed 

just last week in its Warsaw Summit Communique, and I quote, 

‘‘The strategic forces of the Alliance, particularly those of the 

United States, are the supreme guarantee of the security of the Allies.’’ 

Now following direction provided by successive Presidential 

budget requests and in congressional legislation, the Department of 

Energy and the NNSA [National Nuclear Security Administration] 

are currently extending the life of four of the weapons in our stockpile and modernizing the facilities and infrastructure at our national security laboratories and production plants. 

The scope, budgets, and schedules of the LEP [life extension program], the infrastructure modernization, and the DOD [Department of Defense] delivery systems have been fully integrated and 

coordinated in a tightly coupled plan. 

As a result of consistent funding provided by Congress and the 

significant improvements NNSA has made in program management over the past 2 years, all of our LEPs are on schedule and 

within budget. 

However, we are long overdue for an updated, smaller, safer complex that will meet military requirements. I can think of no obstacle that poses a greater risk to the long-term success of our work 

than the current state of NNSA’s aging infrastructure. 

To address immediate mission needs, we have begun major investments in the capabilities identified in the Nuclear Posture Review, including building a new uranium processing facility in Tennessee and replacing the chemical and metallurgy research building at Los Alamos in New Mexico. 

We are also pursuing third-party financing and public-private 

partnerships to complement traditional line item capital construction projects as a faster, and in some cases, more effective and efficient means of providing appropriately sized and modernized facilities for our 21st century operations and workforce. 

We believe greater use of such approaches should continue to be 

aggressively explored, and we appreciate this committee’s strong 

endorsement of that view. 

In closing, America’s nuclear deterrent remains a foundational 

capability for the security of the United States and its allies. NNSA 

will continue to assure the stockpile remains safe, secure, and effective without nuclear explosive testing. But achieving our plans 

for tomorrow’s stockpile requires adequate resources, balanced investments, and a constancy of purpose. 
3 

Thank you for the opportunity to address you this afternoon, sir. 

[The prepared statement of General Klotz can be found in the 

Appendix on page 44.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Great. 

No pressure, Mr. Scher. You are recognized for 3 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT SCHER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY 

OF DEFENSE FOR STRATEGY, PLANS, AND CAPABILITIES, 

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 

Mr. SCHER. Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Cooper, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I will dive right in. 

President Obama’s approach to reducing nuclear dangers has 

consistently included two key pillars: working toward a world without nuclear weapons, and maintaining effective deterrence along 

the way. 

Because we cannot responsibly count on achieving global disarmament before the U.S. arsenal ages into obsolescence, we must 

proceed with modernized replacements to maintain our nuclear deterrent for us and our allies. 

In multiple reviews, the administration concluded that stable deterrence is best provided by sustaining our nuclear triad and dualcapable aircraft [DCA]. The triad and DCA provide the credibility, 

flexibility, and survivability to meet and adapt to the challenges of 

a dynamic security environment without requiring us to mirror 

every nuclear weapon systems others might employ. 

The need to sustain effective deterrence and strategic stability 

drives the requirement to modernize U.S. nuclear forces. And we 

must make investments now to have replacements ready when 

needed. 

Contrary to frequent mischaracterizations, we are not spending 

a trillion dollars on nuclear modernization. The modernization 

costs, spread over 20 years, will be an estimated $350 billion to 

$450 billion. 

While not a small amount of money, as you know, the total defense budget in fiscal year 2016 alone was over $580 billion. The 

cost for nuclear modernization is substantial, but it is not unreasonable for what Secretary Carter has called the bedrock of our security. 

Our modernization plan is also consistent with the President’s 

Prague agenda. It directly supports U.S. nonproliferation and disarmament objectives by enabling reductions in our arsenal while 

continuing to assure allies that they do not need their own nuclear 

capabilities. 

Claims that U.S. modernization signals a nuclear arms buildup 

or a renewed arms race do not fairly characterize our activities and 

those of other countries. 

Recapitalizing the triad will preserve existing military capabilities for preventing both large-scale and limited nuclear attacks, 

even as threats evolve. To deter massive nuclear attack, the United 

States must maintain a force that is invulnerable to a disarming 

first strike. 
4 

Strategic stability requires a solid foundation that is not susceptible to any single point of failure, and each leg of the triad makes 

its own unique and critical contributions. 

While a massive nuclear strike would bring the greatest devastation imaginable, the more acute threat might be a limited attack 

aimed at coercing, rather than destroying, the United States or its 

allies. 

An adversary faced with losing a war of aggression might use a 

small number of nuclear weapons against U.S. forces or allies in 

an attempt to force capitulation. Our unwavering commitment to 

the security of our allies should make it clear that this would be 

a grave miscalculation destined to fail. 

Nuclear deterrence and disarmament share the same ultimate 

goal of reducing the risk of nuclear war. As we continue to work 

towards a world without nuclear weapons, effective nuclear deterrence is an imperative we must not ignore. 

Thank you and this committee’s support for that effort. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Scher can be found in the Appendix on page 52.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Admiral Haney, you are recognized. 

STATEMENT OF ADM CECIL D. HANEY, USN, COMMANDER, 

U.S. STRATEGIC COMMAND 

Admiral HANEY. Good afternoon, Chairman Rogers, Ranking 

Member Cooper, and distinguished members of this committee. I 

am honored to be here today, not only to be with these professionals, but representing all the sailors, soldiers, airmen, and marines 

and civilians that provide strategic deterrence day in and day out. 

These professionals represent our most precious resource and deserve our unwavering support. As a result of their efforts today, 

our Nation’s strategic nuclear deterrence force remains safe, secure, and effective and ready, and strategic stability is sustained. 

That said, our capabilities as a whole have lasted well beyond 

their designed service life. And it is crucial that we modernize our 

strategic deterrence capabilities, which underpin our national and 

global security. 

You know the threat. You have had many briefs, including with 

me, over countries like Russia, China, North Korea, in their pursuit associated with nuclear capabilities. 

Comprehensive strategic deterrence and assurance and escalation control require a long-term approach, and it is far more than 

just nuclear weapons and platforms. 

The President’s budget for 2017 provides a great balance between national priorities, fiscal realities, and begins to reduce some 

of the risks we have accumulated because of deferred maintenance, 

sustainment, and modernization. This budget supports my mission 

requirements. 

But let me be clear, there are no margin to absorb new risk. 

When you look at our triads, we must move forward with replacement programs for our intercontinental ballistic missile programs. 

The Ohio replacement program is my number one priority, due 

to the fact that we already have a degradation in that capability 

over some years due to delays in execution of that program. 
5 

Similarly, our bombers provide us the air-delivered nuclear 

weapons, which offer unique strategic deterrence value associated 

with air capability that provides both strategic and extended deterrence. And our stockpile is safe, secure, and effective, but it is the 

oldest it has been. 

And as a result, we need to continue to move forward life extension programs and our strategy called the 3+2 warhead strategy. 

That is a long-term approach. 

At the end of the day, we must ensure that no nuclear-armed adversary can think that they can escalate their way out of a failed 

conflict. They must perceive that restraint is the best course of action. 

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. 

[The prepared statement of Admiral Haney can be found in the 

Appendix on page 58.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Thank you, Admiral Haney. 

General Rand, you are recognized. 

STATEMENT OF GEN ROBIN RAND, USAF, COMMANDER, AIR 

FORCE GLOBAL STRIKE COMMAND 

General RAND. Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Cooper, 

members of the subcommittee, as I complete my inaugural year as 

the commander of Air Force Global Strike Command, thank you for 

allowing me to appear with my United States Strategic Command 

boss, Admiral Haney, to represent our striker airmen. 

As you know, Air Force Global Strike Command was created to 

provide a focus on the stewardship and operations of two legs of 

our Nation’s nuclear triad while also accomplishing the conventional global strike mission. A key to our continued success will be our 

ability to modernize, sustain, and recapitalize our forces. 

Therefore, it is imperative we be flexible enough to operate seamlessly in a world that continues to rapidly change. Potential adversaries continue extensive, some claim unprecedented, modernization efforts across the full spectrum of their nuclear capabilities. 

Therefore, Air Force Global Strike Command’s mission set needs 

to continue to evolve and grow as we strive to provide highly effective combat forces to our Nation’s combatant commanders. 

Hence, my focus is to make sure Air Force Global Strike Command is rightsized with our manpower and resources, while balancing necessary modernization and recapitalization programs. 

I look forward to addressing any questions you have about our 

modernization plans for the Minuteman III ICBM [intercontinental 

ballistic missile] system, our bomber fleet, the air-launched cruise 

missile, the UH–1N helicopter, our current B61 weapon series, our 

nuclear weapon storage areas, and our nuclear command and control communications weapon system. 

Finally, I am prepared to offer my opinion on the consequences 

to our Nation’s and our allies’ security if these already long-overdue modernization efforts are not carried out according to their 

scheduled timelines. 

Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee to highlight the need for modernization across Air Force 

Global Strike Command. I stand ready to address your questions. 
6 

[The prepared statement of General Rand can be found in the 

Appendix on page 74.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Thank you, General. 

Thank all of you for your outstanding statements. I want to start 

the questioning. 

Admiral Haney, I want to ask you about the overarching strategic picture in the national security environment that our nuclear 

forces are operating within and trend lines that you see right now. 

You have been doing this a long time. And as deputy commander 

of Strategic Command around the time when our current nuclear 

consensus was forged in the Strategic Posture Commission, the Nuclear Posture Review, the New START [Strategic Arms Reduction] 

Treaty, and the commitment to President Obama’s nuclear modernization plan. 

So you have seen where we were in 2009 and certainly have a 

good sense of where we are now, and I think where we are heading, 

based on the conversations I have had with you. 

So give us your professional military opinion. What do you see 

as the trend lines in our national security and our strategic picture 

since 2009? And are things getting better or worse? 

Admiral HANEY. Chairman, thank you for the question. You 

know, as I look over this time period, and it is unfortunate that we 

see where our relationship with Russia has occurred, starting with 

that as one of our five challenges you often hear us talk about, 

Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and violent extremists. 

Russia has not only modernized a lot of their capability in terms 

of the nuclear part of the business, that includes not just silo base 

intercontinental ballistic missiles. They also have mobile base 

intercontinental ballistic missiles, which means they can move 

them around—harder to find. 

They also have modernized their submarine program. They are 

continuing to do so. And they have also modernized some of their 

air capability, and continue to do so, including air-launched cruise 

missiles, both conventional and nuclear variants. 

Russia has been working on modernizing both conventional and 

nuclear capability, as well as cyber and counterspace capability. 

And capability is one thing. It is what they do with it and how they 

talk about it is just the other thing. 

The other piece that has changed is the provocative nature of 

statements that have been made by Russian leaders associated 

with that. And the display of their capabilities, such as long-range 

strategic aircraft flights in other areas around the world without 

transponders on and those kind of things, what I would say is 

other provocative kind of actions that when you add them all together it is not in a good place. 

And I am hopeful that that will improve, associated with our 

whole-of-government efforts, which is a big part of deterrence going 

forward. But that is Russia. 

China, while you are looking at some of the activity in the South 

China Sea, has also been a country that has also developed and 

modernized their nuclear and strategic capabilities in the same 

areas: nuclear, space, and cyber. And in particular in the nuclear 

piece, they are not as transparent. 
7 

When you look at Russia and the United States, we have the associated treaties, such as New START treaty, that allow us transparency and visibility, which is a good thing in terms of those 

weapons that come under that treaty. 

It doesn’t cover all the nonstrategic nuclear weapons that Russia 

has, but in China’s case, we don’t have such a thing. So we don’t 

have the transparency, in terms of not just what they have but in 

the direction in which they are going. 

And then, of course, North Korea has been in the news quite a 

bit here in terms of their aspirations and associated tests, both nuclear tests, missile tests, and what have you. Even recent at-sea 

tests that shows that piece. Those are the things that I have seen 

specifically change. 

In Iran’s case, of course, having the Joint Agreement there has 

put a change, in my opinion, in the other direction by at least giving us leverage and also some visibility in terms of what is going 

on in that nation. 

While they still have other activities, a lot of testing going on 

with missile programs and what have you, from a nuclear standpoint there is a mechanism now. And that piece is different as well. 

So in the balance of things going through those particular areas 

in a succinct manner, clearly in an unclassified form, but it is 

something that we have to balance in terms of maintaining strategic stability, given those directions and developments that those 

nations have been after. 

Mr. ROGERS. Well, thank you. As you and I have discussed, there 

are some outside advocacy groups who have been calling for 

changes in our nuclear programs and policies, as well as our modernization plans. More specifically, there is discussion and pressure 

on this administration to either delay or cancel the LRSO [longrange standoff weapon] and GBSD [ground-based strategic deterrent]. Can you share your thoughts on whether that would be a 

wise course of action or not? 

Admiral HANEY. First, I would say here, as I mentioned in my 

opening statement, I am very pleased with the President’s budget 

for 2017 that is over here, in terms of meeting the direction and 

efforts here to modernize where we need to, not just the nuclear 

weapons, but all the way through the national nuclear command 

and control capabilities, sensing apparatus, and what have you. 

From my perspective, we need to modernize those things, and 

the future for our intercontinental ballistic missile program is very 

important. So moving forward with ground-based strategic deterrent, GBSD as we call it, is paramount in terms of the capabilities 

we need for that part of the triad. 

And from an air leg, you mentioned the long-range standoff 

cruise missile. That missile, too, is very important in terms of having an effective air leg. 

In order to have comprehensive deterrence, this requires us to 

have a complex problem for an adversary. And consequently, I 

would say today we really need to make sure our triad is a credible 

capability. Not just today, but well in the future, and that is why 

those programs are so important. 

Mr. ROGERS. Great. 
8 

General Rand, the same question. But I would ask, in addition 

to discussing whether you think it is wise to postpone or delay or 

to terminate the LRSO or GBSD, these same advocacy groups are 

arguing that in the alternative—and I make the reference because 

you made reference to it in your opening statement—that we 

should instead just try to further upgrade or modernize the Minuteman III. So share your thoughts on those—— 

General RAND. Yes, sir. Well, I welcome that opportunity. I 

would break it down into two areas. I would look at weapon systems, and there are two issues I am concerned with, reliability and 

survivability. In reliability, we get the greatest vote in that. In survivability, enemy and potential adversaries have a vote in that. 

Our current systems today are becoming increasingly difficult to 

remain reliable. They are getting old. And it is harder. And certainly, with the enemy’s vote in the increasing A2/AD [anti-access/ 

area-denial] environment that we are going to be operating in if we 

use nuclear weapons and/or our conventional weapons, it is much 

more difficult. 

And so GBSD and LRSO, in my opinion, are very, very important 

that we go to that so that we can make sure that if we ever use 

these weapons as intended, we have a high probability of success 

that they will hit their intended target. And so delaying those 

would be of great concern to me. 

Mr. ROGERS. What about the efficacy of just upgrading the Minuteman III as opposed to replacing the GBSD? 

General RAND. Sir, I think that is unwise. I think that for many 

reasons the Minuteman III now is coming up on its 50th year in 

service. It is difficult. There are efficiencies to be gained with a new 

system. A lot of efficiencies with manpower, with command and 

control, with the reliability, and certainly then the survivability aspect of that weapon. 

And from a cost savings, I know we talked about there will be 

some costs associated with this, but over the life span of the program we will make a lot of efficiencies that will start getting return 

on the dollar when we go to this in terms of manpower, the maintenance requirements and the command and control of our facilities 

that we have. So there is a lot of benefits that will come with that 

over the course of the life span. 

Mr. ROGERS. Great. 

The Chair recognizes the ranking member for any questions he 

may have. 

Mr. COOPER. I, too, would like to welcome the distinguished witnesses, and I will be very brief. I have two questions on topics that 

are coming up in conference. 

First, Admiral Haney, is there any military requirement to keep 

the W84 cruise missile warhead that has been slated for dismantlement prior to 2009—that had been slated for dismantle prior to 

2009? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman Cooper, I don’t. You know, once a 

piece goes into the retirement listing, they are—to me, it is ready 

for disposal. And those associated weapons, like a W84, that are 

there, to my mind, should be disposed of. 

The only savings of, you know, as we look at our inactive stockpile as a whole, is to ensure we have the requisite parts and pieces, 
9 

if you will, in case we have a technical or a geopolitical issue. But 

the W84 it is not one of those from my standpoint. 

I would think it may be good to ask General Klotz some of the 

question from an NNSA perspective. 

Mr. COOPER. General Klotz, do you have a viewpoint on that? 

General KLOTZ. Mr. Cooper, are we going to have a classified session after this? Is that still—— 

Mr. COOPER. Yes. 

General KLOTZ. I would like to take that to a classified session, 

if I could. 

Mr. COOPER. General Klotz and Admiral Haney, regarding the 

NDAA [National Defense Authorization Act] that the House 

passed, the provision regarding restricting dismantlement, what 

are the consequences for the life extension programs if we restrict 

dismantlements the way the House-passed NDAA suggests? Does 

that also have to be held for classified? 

General KLOTZ. No, that doesn’t. I would be very happy to address that, Congressman Cooper. As you know, the administration 

had requested in the President’s fiscal year 2017 budget request 

that we increase the funding available for dismantlement. We have been spending roughly about $50 million a year to do 

dismantlement, which involves largely disassembly work at the 

Pantex Plant in Amarillo, Texas, and the Y–12 Plant in Oak Ridge, 

Tennessee. We wanted to increase that to $67 million to accelerate 

the process by which weapons that have already retired, are already in the dismantlement queue, would be dismantled. 

Part of it was to live up to a pledge that Secretary of State Kerry 

made at the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty Review Conference in 

New York last year, that we would accelerate dismantlement. 

We also saw it as an advantage in the sense that, one, it would 

allow us to hire a lot more technicians at both Pantex and at Y– 

12. We estimated about 30 to 40 at Pantex and about half that 

amount at Y–12. 

Now, while those people would initially be trained to do dismantlement, in order to do that work they would have to get the 

necessary security clearances and some of the basic skills associated with working with nuclear weapons so that we could also, at 

some point, use them for other key and critical work associated 

with life extension programs, surveillance, and other sorts of 

things. 

So we continue to think that that is an important thing for the 

country to do. And it is an important thing for NNSA to be able 

to do. 

Mr. ROGERS. The Chair recognizes the gentlemen from Colorado, 

Mr. Lamborn, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and also thank you for 

holding this hearing. And I thank all of you for how you are serving our country. 

There is a lot of chatter out there from some disarmament advocates pushing a no-first-use policy. However, President Obama considered and rejected that type of policy in both the 2010 Nuclear 

Posture Review and the 2013 nuclear employment guidance. 

So, Secretary Scher, do you agree that before we would ever 

adopt—and I would hope we wouldn’t—but before we would ever 
10 

adopt a no-first-use policy, we would want to consult with allies 

like NATO allies or Asian allies such as Japan and South Korea? 

Mr. SCHER. Certainly. I think there is no question that one of the 

key pieces to our declaratory policy is not just deterrence against 

conflict with the U.S., but protection of our allies. And hence, I 

would imagine and could not imagine that we could change the policy without talking to our allies and friends who would be affected 

by this. 

Mr. LAMBORN. And there are no such discussions taking place 

currently? 

Mr. SCHER. No such official discussions are taking place. There 

has been no decision within the administration to change the nofirst-use policy. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Thank you. That is reassuring. 

Admiral Haney, when the Nuclear Posture Review says that the 

U.S., quote, ‘‘Will work to establish conditions under which such a 

policy, the no first use policy, could be safely adopted,’’ unquote, 

has the U.S. come any closer to achieving those kinds of conditions 

that would allow for a safe adoption of a no-first-use policy? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman, in terms of the conditions that 

would be required, I am not at a good position to list what those 

are here in this open hearing. I would just say that we know the 

current policy has served us well over many years and that it will 

get—you know, if there is some movement to change that, that 

would require some scrutiny to make sure we are not going to impact strategic stability at large by such a move. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Well, then could you then comment on how such 

a policy, were it ever to be adopted, would be a limit on a future 

Commander in Chief in maybe an unacceptable way? 

Admiral HANEY. Well, I would just generalize and say that, you 

know, as I look at part of my job as commander of Strategic Command and what I am responsible for in developing plans and what 

have you, the real key for me is making sure I can maximize Presidential decision space and options. So that is sort of the approach 

that I would put globally to most of these things. 

Mr. LAMBORN. And what would be your best military professional 

advice regarding whether the U.S. should adopt a no-first-use policy or not? 

Admiral HANEY. Well, given the earlier question that Chairman 

Rogers asked associated with where our strategic conditions around 

the globe, that I outlined, I would want to ensure that we had some 

serious deliberations in terms of trying to balance how that would 

help, if you were to change that, in terms of its impact on strategic 

stability. 

So, you know, I only have a personal advice in this regard that 

we need to be very careful given the directions and developments 

that we see around the world, that we do everything in our power 

to maintain strategic stability. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Okay. And would anyone else care to comment on 

the desirability or lack of desirability for a no-first-use policy? 

Secretary Scher. 

Mr. SCHER. I think the decision was carefully considered a number of times, as you noted. And I think the administration currently feels very comfortable with where that is. 
11 

Of course, this President and any future President should always 

take a look at the environment, understand what capabilities we 

bring to deterrence, what the security environment looks like, and 

one would hope that any decision would be made based on what 

increases our strategic stability. 

And certainly this President could make a decision one way or 

the other, as he already has up to this point. And a future President will also want to, I would assume, look at all those conditions 

and make a determination for him or herself. 

Mr. LAMBORN. Okay. Thank you all for your answers. 

Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. 

Garamendi, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 

the hearing. And gentlemen, thank you for all of your service, your 

thoughtful action and work on these issues. I want to get a couple 

of numbers out of the way right away. Mr. Scher, you said the total cost over 20 years is $350 billion to $450 billion. And the Congressional Budget Office says that for 

the next 10 years, it is $348 billion. These numbers don’t quite coincide. 

Could you further explain why you made the 20-year estimate at 

a range that might even be lower than the 10-year estimate from 

the Congressional Budget Office? 

Mr. SCHER. Sure, Congressman. I can’t speak to the CBO’s num- bers. The $350 billion to $450 billion is what we believe, and, you 

know, we have to make estimates at some point when we are looking out that far, over the course of 20 years, it will take to recapitalize the three legs of the triad. 

So what it takes to modernize each one of the legs. That includes 

things such as the Ohio replacement program submarine, LRSO, 

the GBSD replacement of the Minuteman, and also the B–21. So 

it is those particular modernization acquisition programs. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Does that also include the weapons—— 

Mr. SCHER. It includes—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI [continuing]. Like bombs and—— 

Mr. SCHER [continuing]. It includes the deliveries. It does not include the warheads. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Okay. I think what we need here, because there 

are obviously some significant difference in estimates, and for some 

time we have been asking for serious estimates beyond the 10 

years. And apparently you have that available. So if you could 

make that available to us it would be helpful because this is an ongoing debate as to what this is going to cost. 

Mr. SCHER. And we have had this conversation before, and I will 

go back to look at it and providing as clear—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Well, sure. 

Mr. SCHER [continuing]. The greatest clarity as I can from the 

people who do the budget. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. No, you just said that you just gave us great— 

you—— 

Mr. SCHER. And I can defend the $100 million difference, the estimates. 
12 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Yes. Well, we will give it to you in writing. And 

if you would please respond in as great as detail as you have available that would be helpful. 

Mr. SCHER. Of course. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. In your testimony you also talked about to deter 

massive nuclear attack the United States must maintain a force 

that is invulnerable to disarming strength. What is that force? Is 

it all of it or is it part of it? 

Mr. SCHER. So it needs to be invulnerable to disarming strike. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. ‘‘Invulnerable to a disarming strike.’’ 

Mr. SCHER. Right. So the concept behind the statement is the 

idea that we do not want to have an arsenal that any of our potential adversaries would think that they can get rid of, that they can 

eliminate on their own in a first strike. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Okay. So therefore in your view each of the 

three legs of the triad is vulnerable—— 

Mr. SCHER. I would—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI [continuing]. To a first strike. Is that correct? 

Mr. SCHER. The submarine force, currently I would ask the operational folks to weigh in, but I think some are more vulnerable 

than others. Certainly there are known locations for certain pieces. 

There are unknown for others. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. And Admiral Haney, are the submarines vulnerable to a first strike, all of them, part of them, new, old? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman Garamendi, the only time a submarine is vulnerable is when it is in port. 

[Laughter.] 

The rest of the time when it is underway it is underwater, 

stealth conditions, not vulnerable. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. But is it not our strategy to always have more 

than one underway? 

Admiral HANEY. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Therefore they are not vulnerable to a first 

strike? 

Admiral HANEY. That is correct. We—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. How does that work, Mr. Scher, from your 

statement? Don’t answer. That is just rhetoric on my part. 

I think the rest of this should be in closed session, so we will go 

there. Thank you. 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great State of 

Alabama, home of the 2016 national football champions, Mo Brooks 

for any questions he may have. 

Mr. BROOKS. I love that introduction. 

Secretary Scher, this committee has heard that the administration is considering extending the New START treaty with Russia 

for an additional 5 years, even though the treaty limits don’t even 

take effect until 2018 and don’t expire until 2021. 

So this would be extending a treaty 5 years early and pushing 

expiration out until 2026, which is beyond the limit of the next 

President’s two possible terms. If true, this action drastically limits 

the options for the next two Presidential terms. 

For instance, he or she would have no leverage to get Russia to 

include its vast stockpile of tactical nuclear weapons in an arms 
13 

control regime. Reducing the number of Russia’s thousands of tactical nuclear weapons must be a priority as the Senate said when 

it ratified the New START treaty. 

Russia’s conduct under Mr. Putin is remarkable, violating the 

INF [Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces] Treaty in multiple ways, 

failing to comply with prohibitions on chemical and biological weapons, invading and annexing parts of the Ukraine, threatening 

NATO with nuclear weapons. The list is long. 

Tell me, is the Obama administration going to seek to extend the 

New START treaty before its term is up in January? 

Mr. SCHER. So Congressman, I do not know the answer of whether or not that the administration will make that determination. 

Certainly it is an option that is given in the treaty, but it is also 

not something that must be taken up. 

Mr. BROOKS. Who in your judgment would know the answer to 

that question? 

Mr. SCHER. In the end it will be the President that gets to make 

a determination of whether or not he believes it is in the United 

States interest to extend the treaty as allowed for in the treaty. 

Mr. BROOKS. Anyone between you and the President who would 

also have knowledge of that and have the answer? 

Mr. SCHER. There are ongoing discussions, as you have heard, 

but I really am not at liberty to talk about ongoing discussions before decisions have been made. 

Mr. BROOKS. We know that the Obama administration had the 

Intelligence Community put together a National Intelligence Estimate [NIE] prior to the New START treaty. This is standard practice so we know what we are getting into. Has the National Intelligence Estimate been put together for a possible extension to the 

treaty? 

Mr. SCHER. I don’t know that one has. I will tell you, however, 

that the Intelligence Community is consulted before any decision of 

any type like this, whether or not tasked in a formal NIE or not. 

Mr. BROOKS. Secretary Scher, let me move to a separate but very 

much related topic. The rumor mill is swirling, which is often the 

case on Capitol Hill, thanks to the small in number but very vocal 

disarmament advocates in Washington. You can help us put a 

rumor to rest. 

In December of last year Under Secretary of State Rose Gottemoeller testified to our subcommittee that the administration 

would not seek a prohibition on nuclear testing through a United 

Nations Security Council resolution. There has been talk of pursuing that avenue to skirt the United States Senate, which is unlikely to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty any time soon. 

Under Secretary Gottemoeller said to a suggestion that they 

might pursue that option, quote, ‘‘I have been in constant battle 

with our NGO [non-governmental organization] colleagues over this 

issue. We do not agree with this notion,’’ end quote. And when 

asked for assurance that this would be pursued she responded, 

quote, ‘‘Correct,’’ end quote. 

Can you assure us again that this path is not being considered 

and will not be pursued by the administration? 

Mr. SCHER. Again, I can’t disclose what is going on, but I can assure you that there is—understanding I was coming before you and 
14 

thinking this might come up I actually talked to the Under Secretary Rose Gottemoeller and she assured me that there is nothing 

that she is thinking of. She stands by the statement—that would 

take away the prerogative of the Senate for ratifying treaties. 

Mr. BROOKS. Thank you, Mr. Scher. 

I yield back. 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great State of 

Washington, Mr. Larsen, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. LARSEN. Home of the 2015 rowing champions, the University 

of Washington Huskies. 

[Laughter.] 

Maybe we don’t play football as well as you down there in Alabama, but it is not the only sport, believe it or not. 

[Laughter.] 

Secretary Scher, you might know that some of the conversation 

that we have in this committee, especially on this side of the aisle, 

goes to the affordability of the modernization. 

And in your testimony you, in your written testimony, said that 

the trillion-dollar number is a mischaracterization. And I guess my 

question to you, though, is where do you think it comes from, first? 

Second, if after 20 years you are at $450 billion and then we 

really start to spend money over those next 10 years, I can see a 

world, in my mind, where there is a trillion dollars over the next 

30 years. I don’t know that I will be here. I know you won’t be 

here, sitting here. 

[Laughter.] 

Maybe somewhere else, but not sitting here perhaps. 

So in your view where does this come from? Because the main 

issue, and General Rand in his verbal testimony at the end basically invited us to ask him. And you are great. I like you, but basically invited us to ask you how great nuclear modernization is. 

I think it is great. It is greatly expensive as well. And the debate 

is less about whether or not it is needed. 

It is more about you are leaving us a gigantic obligation, what 

everyone loves, but if I go to the Readiness Subcommittee they 

have got everything they love over there. Or they have things they 

love. And we go to the other subcommittees they have got things 

they love, too. 

And pretty soon we don’t have a $580 billion defense budget. It 

will be much larger because everybody gets what they love and 

they don’t want us to make any choices. 

So what are you going to—the number comes from and what are 

you all doing to convince, well, maybe not all of us, but certainly 

me that you are prioritizing at all? Because I don’t think that you 

are. 

Mr. SCHER. So thank you, Congressman. I can’t tell you where 

the number comes from. Obviously it is a big number and it makes 

a splash, and I think, you know, depending on how you want to calculate costs for how long, you can get to any number of numbers 

that you wish. 

What I know of is that the modernization piece is what I said. 

And again, it is a pretty big range given that we have so much un-
15 

certainty out into the out-years, which is why it is hard for us to 

always pin this down. 

There also are additional costs no doubt. One of the costs is the 

weapons themselves, the warheads. One of the costs is sustaining 

these pieces, the operations and maintenance piece. So I am sure 

you can piece together many different expenses on this. 

And, you know, all of these are known for today but not known 

for tomorrow. For example, fiscal year 2017 sustainment of our 

force is approximately $12 billion a year. That is for the entire 

force. 

One would imagine, and what acquisition people tell me is when 

you have a new system it actually costs you less to maintain, although overall costs will go up as well. 

So I don’t know what that number is going to look like out in 

the future, but that is sort of another piece to the cost is those 

sustainment costs. 

In terms of affordability, I have said it before and I will be forced 

to repeat it, it is about prioritization. We in the Department of Defense feel that this is such a critical mission that we must 

prioritize it at the top and that in fact we will look to take risk 

elsewhere because it is so important that fundamentally we have 

nuclear deterrence covered appropriately. And we believe, and the 

administration has determined, that the triad is the best way of 

doing that. 

It does mean that there are costs in other places, and we always 

present what we have as a budget that is balanced. It gives me the 

opportunity to say that sequestration would, of course, throw almost all of this up into the air and to great risk across the board. 

So we hope that we can get out of the situation where we are 

worried about a $100 billion cut based on sequestration that we 

had not programmed for and would have to go back and take a look 

at the full range. But even then, your priorities are affordable if 

they are your top priorities. 

Mr. LARSEN. Well, I guess, I have got, you know, 30-some seconds left. And maybe the problem is with the committee because 

this subcommittee thinks we are first among equals in the money 

we should get and the other six believe that as well. 

But, you know, we don’t have that debate. Everyone avoids that 

debate on this committee, on the whole committee, that everybody 

does get what they want. 

But if we are the first among equals and what I heard you say 

at the top of the Department, there is a commitment to the nuclear 

modernization. You didn’t say first and foremost, but you almost 

said it. Then maybe we need to get there, too, but I don’t know that 

we will. 

You know, I have been on this committee 16 years and I always 

said before the most dangerous thing to give the Department is 

everything it wants because there are no priorities. And the second 

most is not giving it enough because then you are not doing all the 

right things. And we haven’t found that balance here. 

So happy vacation, committee. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. 
16 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Utah, Chairman 

Bishop, for any questions he may have. 

Mr. BISHOP. I don’t get any State accolades here? 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Oh, the great State of Utah, home of the Utes. How 

is that? 

Mr. BISHOP. That is good enough. That is good enough. 

General Rand—— 

Mr. LARSEN. PAC–12 baseball champions. 

Mr. ROGERS. What is a Ute, by the way? 

Mr. LARSEN. PAC–12 baseball champions, Rob. 

Mr. ROGERS. National baseball champions. 

Mr. LARSEN. PAC–12—— 

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you. They are still the Utes, yes. 

General Rand and Admiral Haney, I appreciate you being here. 

Let me—help me make sure I have got this right. The Air Force 

did conduct an analysis of alternatives on the ground-based strategic deterrent program. 

And as I understand, you looked at a simple life extension of the 

current Minuteman III and the results were—and I think I got out 

of it you wouldn’t actually save any money. And secondly that the 

military effectiveness requirements would not be there, assuming 

the adversary continues on their present defensive capability improvements. 

So let me ask you, General and then Admiral, why won’t this actually save money? Why won’t it meet military requirements? 

General RAND. Sir, when we looked at the life extension over a 

50-year period, which is fair to look at for a Minuteman III, the 

study revealed it would be in a—$160 billion. 

For the GBSD as we are working our requirements and what we 

feel our best gouge in our analysis is we can do that same period 

of time at $159 billion and then the efficiencies we will gain in 

terms of manpower saving, security forces, the command and control, the reduction in some of the facilities that we need, not having 

to go out and do the maintenance on some of the launch control 

centers that we have to do, there will be in that same period of 

time additional savings. 

Again, you know, writing checks that you can’t cash yet, but we 

are thinking up to $20 billion over that same period of time. 

Mr. BISHOP. All right. And the second—— 

General RAND. And the GBSD—— 

Mr. BISHOP [continuing]. Part of that was if you just simply extend the Minuteman III. That does not meet our defense capabilities, right? 

General RAND. No, sir. And what that doesn’t do, the Minuteman 

III, and this is my key point is it doesn’t address the survivability 

piece. If that weapon is used and if we are not willing to use it 

then why have it? If that weapon is used to be a deterrent for this 

Nation, then it needs to have a high probability that it will get to 

the target that it is intended for. 

Mr. BISHOP. All right. Well, thank you. 

And Admiral, let me ask a slightly different question then because I think you got the answer right there. If the Minuteman III 

then is advanced in aging and we stick to the current schedule for 
17 

the GBSD program, what would be the consequences if that GBSD 

program then is delayed? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman, if that program is delayed it really puts one leg of the triad at significant risk as we go forward 

from, as was stated, from a reliability standpoint as well as we continue to test, which we have to. 

And very important as the system matures to keep your testing 

program under way, that the number of missile bodies that we will 

have will also go below my requirements. And then finally we have 

age-out problem associated with the rocket engines themselves as 

we go forward. 

So when you add all that together it puts the strategic stability 

and our deterrence capability at significant risk if we were to lose 

a leg of the triad like that. 

Mr. BISHOP. Okay. 

And then let me go to Secretary Scher if I could. We still have 

not seen a request for proposals [RFP] for the first phase of this 

program, even though I think this committee was assured that that 

was going to happen in April. 

Why do we continue to see a delay in Milestone A decisions to 

proceed with this program, if indeed that is such an important element to do that? 

Mr. SCHER. The Department of Defense and the acquisition side 

that is looking at this continues to go through this process. They 

are looking to get out an RFP after the DAB [Defense Acquisition 

Board] in Milestone A, which I am told is in early August. 

And the acquisition professionals I spoke to said that they believe this is along lines with normal practice, but are absolutely 

looking to move this forward as soon as possible. And we have 

money in the budget to go forward with this when we get through 

Milestone A. 

Mr. BISHOP. So they recognize that this was scheduled to be done 

in April and what is this now, almost August. And it might be done 

in August. 

Mr. SCHER. Yes, Congressman. 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. BISHOP. Well, it seems to me that there is some holdup in 

a desk at maybe the Under Secretary for AT&L [Acquisition, Technology and Logistics]. Is that basically what is going on? 

Mr. SCHER. Honestly, sir, there is a reason I am not an acquisition professional. And I don’t know the answer to that. But they 

have told me that they are moving forward and expect it to be done 

in August. 

Mr. BISHOP. Well, you know, this committee is considering Senate proposals to dismember the AT&L organization, and it doesn’t 

really help us to support the continued existence when necessary 

programs seem to be delayed and not necessarily appropriately delayed or not having a good reason for it. 

And I am over by 7 seconds. I apologize for that. I yield back to 

the chairman from the great State of Alabama that does have a 

mediocre football team that lost to Utah in the last bowl game we 

were together. But other than that—— 

[Laughter.] 

Mr. ROGERS. Roll Tide. 
18 

[Laughter.] 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great State of 

Louisiana, home of the LSU [Louisiana State University] Tigers, 

Dr. Fleming for 5 minutes. 

Dr. FLEMING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and again, thank you 

General Rand and Admiral Haney for being here and the others, 

General Klotz. 

Let us talk about a statement made by former Chief of Staff General Welsh. He said that if he could comment on the weapon station facility recapitalization programs in terms of timeline of what 

can we expect for the future, General Welsh indicated that Barksdale Air Force Base would begin in fiscal year 2018 but he later 

explained to me that the program would slip 1 year to fiscal year 

2019. 

So how confident are you that the weapon storage facility is on 

track in terms of technical solutions and the budget? And what do 

you need from this committee to stay on track? 

General RAND. Sir, I will take that one. I think that that is a 

very fair question. The complicating factor with the Barksdale is 

that the WSF, that is what we will be calling them, the weapons 

storage facilities, for bombers is more complicated than for it is for 

our ICBMs. 

And we didn’t want to come out the chute and have Barksdale 

be the first one we do—— 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND [continuing]. Because it is going to be more of a 

technological challenge for us. And so we wanted to use the one at 

Malmstrom first and make sure—not that we would fail there. We 

are not going to fail, but that we didn’t get in over our head before 

we went to Barksdale. And that was the reason to go to 2019. 

We are on track to meet that and there are dollars for that. It 

is in the FYDP [Future Years Defense Plan]. I am very confident 

that is a top priority, why I mentioned in my statement one of our 

priorities is the WSF—— 

Dr. FLEMING. Right. 

General RAND [continuing]. Recapitalization and modernization. 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND. And I will keep you appraised of—you personally—— 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND [continuing]. I will keep you appraised of any 

changes to any timelines. 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. I appreciate that and all that is all very logical. I just wanted to make sure we are on track, remain on track, 

and there are no other complicating factors. Okay. 

Again, for Admiral Haney and General Rand, there has been sufficient discussion as to whether or not the Nation should build a 

new nuclear cruise missile. The opponents of the missile come onto 

Capitol Hill, other notable officials such as William Perry argue a 

cruise missile is destabilizing and unnecessary. 

In Dr. Perry’s case he argues that the B–2 bomber anti-gravity 

nuclear bomb, the B61, will be, quote, ‘‘around for decades,’’ end 

quote, to come and ultimately we will see a new stealth bomber, 

the B–21, of course, making the standoff cruiser unnecessary. 
19 

So I would like your perspectives whether a small number of B– 

2s, which was first made public in 1989 and a new bomber, an aircraft that hasn’t even been built yet, the B–21, will be able to guarantee access to a complex threat environment? And hopefully 

should the B–21 be built on time and on budget, will that new aircraft entirely eliminate the need for a standoff capability? 

General RAND. Sir, I will take the first crack at it and then I will 

defer to my boss. It is my humble opinion and I think to address 

that question you have to answer why do we need a long-range 

standoff weapon. 

Well, whether it is the current ALCM [air-launched cruise missile] or the LRSO and so there are several good reasons why you 

want to have standoff capability. One is survivability again. 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND. You don’t want to get into the eye of the tiger if 

you can avoid it. It gives the President flexibility. It gives crews 

flexibility. It causes the enemy targeting challenges. 

It allows you to not go as far with your bombers, not need the 

same amount of tankers. There are a lot of efficiencies. So when 

you address why do you need standoff, I think it is fairly indisputable. 

So then you go why do we need an LRSO then? As you said so 

well, the B–21 will start being delivered in the mid-2020s, will continue delivering those into the 2030s and 2040s. 

The B–52, which is solely reliant on the ALCM right now, the 

air-launched cruise missile, is going to be with us for a long time. 

And that is the weapon of choice for that. And that would significantly hinder my boss here in his targeting requirements that he 

has as a STRATCOM [U.S. Strategic Command] commander. 

Dr. FLEMING. Sure. 

General RAND. And the ALCM is aged out. It is a 10-year missile 

that is in its 30th year. It is having difficulties maintaining its reliability. But more importantly, the missile will not be survivable in 

the ever-increasing A2/AD environment. 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND. So if we want that weapon to have a high probability of hitting the target it is intended for, we need a new weapon system, a new LRSO. It is not a new concept. 

Dr. FLEMING. Right. 

General RAND. And it is not a new warhead. 

Dr. FLEMING. Yes. 

General RAND. But to get where it needs to go we need to invest 

in the LRSO. 

Boss, I will defer to you. 

Admiral HANEY. I would say I echo all of those statements. First 

and foremost we have an air-launched cruise missile now and we 

would be ill-advised to allow that to just go away and not have it 

replaced. 

When you look at my capability today and as mentioned, our B– 

52s will be around well into the 2040s. And as a result, they, in 

order to have a sufficient air leg, not having the B–52 as part of 

that would be really, really bad from a deterrence and strategic 

stability standpoint. 
20 

We have one now and we need to continue to have one to avoid 

making a less complex problem for any adversary that may think 

they can escalate their way out of a failed conflict. We want to keep 

that contained, that restrained is a better option. 

I would also say it is very important to our extended deterrence 

commitments as we go forward in terms of having that kind of capability. So that is what I would add to it. Really an impact to strategic stability if we lose that portion of our air leg going forward. 

Dr. FLEMING. Right. Thank you, gentlemen. 

Mr. COFFMAN [presiding]. Mr. Bridenstine, of Oklahoma. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Secretary Scher, I wanted to have you talk for a second about the 

triad. I believe that each leg of the triad complements the other 

legs of the triad. I have heard many people suggest that it is redundant, in fact, maybe even some people on this committee have 

suggested that. 

Would you comment on whether or not you believe it is complementary or redundant? 

Mr. SCHER. So certainly this administration has determined that 

these are complementary. Certainly there are a lot of things. There 

are overlapping capabilities. 

Of course, this is what has kept strategic stability for decades, 

and I think we all believe that having these overlapping capabilities to, as Admiral Haney said, change the calculus and complicate 

the calculuses of any adversaries, is in fact, not just redundant but 

important to the strategic stability. 

Each leg, as you said, has its own particular piece. The submarines, as noted, are the most survivable of them. The air leg is 

one that when generated is the easiest for messaging because it 

can be seen. It also is the most important for our allies that the 

extended deterrence that they see comes from those kinds of options as well as with the lower yields of those weapons. 

And as well it is a recallable one until you have actually 

launched the weapon. It takes hours for an aircraft to be able to 

get to a point where before it would launch and they can be called 

back at any time. 

Obviously the ICBM force is the most responsive. It has highly 

secure command and control. And it strengthens deterrence by ensuring that the disarming first strike that I mentioned about isn’t 

possible. 

And even if it could, that, you know, they would have to—there 

is no such thing as a small operation. They would have to go in 

massively to take that out. 

So it is all of these interlocking pieces that we believe and that 

we have evidence of decades has provided for strategic stability 

even in the height of the Cold War, that we believe needs to be 

maintained. And that was the determination of the administration 

through the Nuclear Posture Review in 2010 and the implementation review in 2013. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. Thank you for that. 

Admiral Haney, from a military requirements perspective, some 

have criticized President Obama’s modernization plan as an, quote, 

‘‘all of the above strategy, seeking to replicate the Cold War arsenal 

or even start a new arms race.’’ 
21 

This argument, of course, ignores the 85 percent massive reduction in our nuclear forces since the Cold War and the elimination 

of entire weapon classes, including nuclear artillery shells, sealaunched cruise missiles, and other types of weapons. 

Admiral Haney, do you believe the administration’s modernization plan reflects a desire to replicate our Cold War arsenal or start 

an arms race? Or do you believe that it simply modernizes systems 

necessary to execute specific military requirements and missions of 

the highest importance? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman, I would say no, the plan is not to 

build up for some cold war. Quite frankly it is the latter in the case 

of having an effective capability in order to maintain strategic stability, deterrence, assurance, and escalation control. 

And I would say when you look at the categories of things, warheads significantly reduced, 85 percent since about 1967 to where 

we are today, as you have mentioned, but also platforms. 

When you look at the Ohio replacement program it is not the 

same number of submarines we have today, less tubes than what 

have been associated with the design. 

So in many categories we are only working to modernize and retain what we need in order to maintain. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. So the idea that we are trying to create a cold 

war arsenal or start an arms race you would say that is false? 

Admiral HANEY. Quite the contrary. False. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. Okay. That is good. 

Finally, Secretary Scher, from a cost perspective I want to talk 

for a second about the cost of modernization and maybe put it into 

some perspective. 

When you think about nuclear recapitalization and conventional 

recapitalization from a, you know, when you think about the entire 

defense budget, can you give us some comparison? What is the— 

between the two, conventional and nuclear? 

Mr. SCHER. Certainly. So nuclear modernization itself as we are 

looking is going to be less than 4 percent of the overall DOD budget. And even at its peak it is about 11 percent of the total fiscal 

year 2017 acquisition budget. 

So using fiscal year 2017 as a baseline for what the acquisition 

budget looks like the peak number would be at about 11 percent 

of the total. Again, we can’t predict what our budget number, so, 

you know, that is our best gauge of, if you will. 

But while, again, it is a lot of money but we believe it is important and it is sustainable. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. Okay. Great. Thank you. 

And General Rand, final question, I heard you earlier. You mentioned that you made a decision on the best gouge at the time. 

Would you share for this committee what gouge is? 

General RAND. Oh, I am sorry. It is just our best—— 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. And I say that as a Navy pilot who is now in 

the Air National Guard. 

General RAND. Our best estimate. 

Mr. BRIDENSTINE. Your best estimate. Got it. Okay. 

I yield back. 

Mr. ROGERS. Thank the gentleman. 
22 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. 

Coffman, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Thank you, gentlemen, and thank you so much for 

your dedication and service to our country. 

I am not sure who is the best person to answer this question, but 

obviously very concerned about Russia and their focus on nuclear 

weapons, both strategically and in tactical nuclear weapons. 

And I wonder if one of you could discuss right now their focus 

in terms of tactical nuclear weapons and their doctrine in terms of 

deployment of those weapons? 

Mr. SCHER. I think I can. Let me talk from the policy perspective 

that we are looking at. I think one of the concerns we have is the 

state—certainly just looking at the fact of the modernization and 

that is something we can go into in classified setting. 

It is concerning to see that there is clearly—the Russians are 

clearly continuing to look at nuclear weapons as a clear and important part of their arsenal. And they are building it up both in size 

and type—not beyond the limits of the new START agreement, to 

be clear, but in other areas we certainly see. And they have violated the INF treaty, for example. 

Also of concern is the way they look to—and I think Secretary 

Carter said saber-rattling with nuclear weapons. How they are 

using them, how they are training with them extensively and in an 

increased manner. 

And finally there is the idea that is floating around in the military circles within Russia of the use to escalate to win a conflict, 

or escalate to de-escalate is often how it is referred to. 

And the idea that there could be a limited nuclear use that could 

hopefully stop a failed conventional crisis and that they could win 

a conventional crisis that they might think they are losing or could 

lose by the use of limited nuclear weapons, as Admiral Haney 

spoke about in his opening statement. 

That is particularly concerning and dangerous. No one, Russians 

or anyone else, should think that they can use nuclear weapons to 

escalate their way out of a failed conventional conflict. The use of 

nuclear weapons would change dramatically and fundamentally the 

nature of any conflict. 

But those kind of issues are ones that we are most concerned 

about as we look at the developing environment and security environment, especially in regard to Russia. 

Mr. COFFMAN. And those are tactical weapons integrated with 

conventional forces? 

Mr. SCHER. That is a separate piece in terms of the actual—what 

they are doing. They could use any different kinds of weapons, but 

certainly that is also a concern, their integration of tactical with 

conventional units. 

Mr. COFFMAN. And it is a first strike doctrine, is it not? 

Mr. SCHER. They are not calling it such, but there is certainly 

the implication that—of escalate to, you know, work their way out 

of a crisis. So we are certainly planning and thinking about that 

they would or certainly could do that in a worst-case scenario. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Oh. What else? 

Secretary Scher, can you characterize the risk to national security if we fail to modernize our nuclear forces? 
23 

Mr. SCHER. Certainly, and Admiral Haney I think from an operational perspective can add if he wishes, but if we do not modernize 

these forces we will not have these forces available for use or operations. This is not a question of modernizing or keeping old forces. 

This is a question of watching them slowly age out from our forces. 

So we would prefer to make decisions if we are to draw down our 

forces, if we feel the security environment is right and can do so 

with a willing partner, we would prefer to do any such reductions 

as part of policy, not as part of aging out of old equipment. So that 

to us is the biggest issue involved here. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Admiral Haney. 

Admiral HANEY. I would just add that the real key to deterrence 

is the perception of your adversary. An adversary has to understand that you have not just a safe, secure, and effective, but a 

ready and reliable and credible capability. 

And anything that detracts from that perception will cause that 

adversary to think that they may be able to do something. And we 

cannot afford that in terms of nuclear weapons given the existential threat that they would impose upon our way of life and our 

country. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Okay. 

Admiral HANEY. I would also say that we don’t want to default 

and lose a leg or a partial leg of a triad because we haven’t modernized. And we are to the point now, as I mentioned earlier, that 

we can ill afford to wait longer. We are to the point now where we 

have delayed. 

The good news was our predecessors designed it built to last and 

we were able to some life extension programs, et cetera, but now 

we are in a point where reliability, survivability, as you have heard 

today, will be at risk. And hence, deterrence and our assurance to 

our allies will be of question. 

Mr. COFFMAN. General Rand, in looking at the next generation 

bomber is the Air Force considering any existing platforms, any existing airframes to work off of as they did with the refueler that 

saved a lot of money? 

Mr. Chairman, can I take that for the record? 

Mr. ROGERS. They can go ahead and answer. Time has already 

expired. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Okay. 

Mr. ROGERS. Go ahead and answer. 

General RAND. Sir, we have been very fortunate and I can talk 

in more detail in the classified part. We have been able with the 

B–21—we are going to be able to use a lot of hard lessons learned 

from current existing platforms. 

This is the family of systems and it was built that way to augment and be able to work with some of our systems. And I can talk 

about what those are in classified as well. 

I would also say we have learned a lot from the B–2. And the 

B–21 is a Northrop Grumman product. That is not necessarily why 

we bought it, but there is a lot of resident expertise that will reside 

there with the company and with our partners. So I am pretty confident that we are going to be able to get this up, platform on time, 

on schedule, and it is going to be a humdinger. 

Mr. COFFMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 
24 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, home of the 

Ohio State Buckeyes 2015 national football champions. 

[Laughter.] 

Chairman Turner. 

Mr. TURNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that 

Buckeye shout-out. 

Gentlemen, I appreciate all the discussion that is happening 

today, some of it being incredibly technical. 

I want to go to just a policy issue or discussion on the issue of 

nonproliferation versus disarmament. And there is I think a great 

deal of misconception that happens in the discussions of nonproliferation and disarmament, nonproliferation being keeping weapons 

out of the hands of others, disarmament is when you get rid of your 

own. 

And I want to go through a series of policy positions that I think 

you in your evidence of your testimony today, you agree with. And 

then I want to contrast that with some issues that we are seeing 

in nonproliferation disarmament, and then I am going to engage 

the chairman in a discussion here on some further action items 

here. 

So with each of you, I mean, from our discussion today it is my 

understanding that each of you believe that it is critical to the 

United States to field the LRSO and GBSD. Correct? If every one 

of you could you audibly answer and we will go down and we will 

start here, General? 

General RAND. Yes. 

Admiral HANEY. Absolutely. 

Mr. SCHER. Yes. 

General KLOTZ. Yes. 

Mr. TURNER. In the United States 2010 Nuclear Posture Review 

it said that the United States would not announce a no-first-use or 

a sole purpose declaratory policy. You still agree with that policy 

perspective, do you not? 

General RAND. Sir, my personal opinion is yes. 

Admiral HANEY. I agree. 

Mr. SCHER. That remains our policy, yes. 

General KLOTZ. I agree with Mr. Scher. That remains our policy. 

Mr. TURNER. Excellent. And you believe that Secretary Carter, 

Secretary Moniz, Chairman Dunford, that they all agree also with 

the issue of the LRSO, the GBSD, the no-first-use or sole purpose 

declaration policies that we just discussed. You agree that there is 

consistency in their positions also? 

General RAND. Yes, sir. In my discussion with Admiral Haney, 

who is closer to those individuals than I am, that is what I have 

been led to believe. 

Admiral HANEY. Well, I would not want to speak for the Chairman. I work for the Secretary of Defense and the President, so I 

will leave it at that. But while GBSD and LRSO I have had many 

discussions with the Chairman, the other I have not. 

Mr. TURNER. You have no reason to believe that they have a differing opinion? 

Admiral HANEY. I do not. 

Mr. TURNER. Thank you. 
25 

Mr. SCHER. And I will refer to the current policy and the current 

budget up here, which supports all the things you noted. 

Mr. TURNER. Okay. 

General KLOTZ. Yes. I try not to speak for Secretary Moniz because I found he is extraordinarily articulate and a lot smarter 

than I am. I know certainly on the things which the Department 

of Energy and the NNSA have responsibility for, which is developing the warheads for LRSO and the warhead that would go on 

the GBSD, we are fully supportive of those programs. 

Mr. TURNER. Excellent. Now, I am going to ask you some questions that relate to a public information study that are widely held 

beliefs by the public and ask your position and your opinion as to 

whether or not you agree with them. 

The public views nuclear weapons as the ultimate protective 

weapon. Nuclear weapons make us safe. The public views the world 

as a dangerous place. Are those opinions that the public has that 

you would also agree with? 

General. 

General RAND. Sir, I believe the world is a dangerous place, and 

I believe that nuclear weapons and its deterrent value can’t be 

overstated, and that it does provide us safety and security. 

Mr. TURNER. Thank you. 

Admiral HANEY. I believe that one has to always look at things 

in a more complex piece. Deterrence is a complex issue, lots of 

parts and pieces, and I don’t believe in just bumper statements. 

Mr. TURNER. But do you believe it is an essential portion, would 

you not? 

Admiral HANEY. But it is definitely. As I have stated before in 

opening statement, et cetera, that it is essential to our national security. 

Mr. TURNER. Excellent. 

Mr. SCHER. Nuclear weapons are a critical piece of our national 

security. And it is a dangerous world. 

General KLOTZ. Well, as I said, Congressman, in my opening remarks, even though the Cold War, the end of it was decades behind 

us, we still live in a very complex, dangerous, international system 

and that nuclear deterrence is a foundational capability of maintaining our security, but not only our security alone but the security of our allies and friends across the globe. 

Mr. TURNER. Well, this report goes on to say that the U.S. public 

believes that the nuclear arsenal is an effective deterrent that dissuades enemies from attacking us. The thing that I am reading 

from is from the U.S. in the World talking about issues with Americans, ‘‘Talking about Nuclear Weapons with the Persuadable Middle.’’ 

It is a study that was done of the American public for the purposes of persuading them not for nonproliferation but of disarmament. And what is concerning about this report is in addition 

to identifying—some of these studies were done in Indianapolis. 

They engaged citizens for it and tested messages. 

And they came to conclusions. They gave this walk-through of 

what you can and cannot say with the goal being disarmament and 

our elimination of our nuclear weapons. They actually come right 

out and say that one of the things you are not to do in talking to 
26 

the persuadable middle is to tell them that your goal is getting to 

zero as your primary goal. 

It goes on to say that nuclear weapons should be presented as 

a security threat and as a risk to the United States, not as a security issue of the United States. 

Mr. Chairman, if I might just for a moment. This study and this 

group is in part funded by Ploughshares. And Ploughshares, I have 

been given documents, apparently has significant investments that 

are in even the Cayman Islands. And there is a grave concern as 

to how this funds a message alternative that is somewhat disingenuous to the policy perspectives that you have just articulated. 

And I want to ask the chairman to join with me in taking the 

next step of looking at this discussion of disarmament versus nonproliferation and how the message is being funded to try to dissuade the American public of the things that you just testified to 

we know to be the case with disingenuous statements and misinformation. 

So I will be sharing this with the chairman. I hope to get back 

to you gentlemen and hope to have your assistance also in ways 

that we can counter the alternative message that I think makes 

your job harder—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. TURNER [continuing]. When you come back to us for help. 

Mr. ROGERS. Yes. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Excuse me, but you have very successfully put 

together a hearing here that is becoming extraordinarily one-sided, 

in part because my Democratic colleagues are not here. However—— 

Mr. TURNER. Attendance is important, but Mr. Chairman, I 

didn’t yield the time, the additional—that you were giving. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. I am sorry, but you—— 

Mr. ROGERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

Go ahead. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. If I might, Mr. Chairman—— 

Mr. ROGERS. The gentleman from California, go ahead. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So to complete this, I want to congratulate you 

on this, the success that you are having in presenting one side of 

this argument. Others of us, myself and perhaps others, might disagree with many of the things that have been said here, perhaps 

because of our absence, which is our fault, certainly not yours. 

The other side of this story has not been told. First—nobody is 

talking about disarmament from this side of the aisle. Nobody. 

Right? 

Mr. ROGERS. But here—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. I want to make this clear. I have listened to at 

least a half a dozen on the other side here, and this has gone on 

and on. Nobody on this side is talking about disarmament. We are 

talking about let us be wise, let us be smart, and let us recognize 

that there are limits. 

Mr. ROGERS. Well, the chair is going to have to intervene here. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. And I would appreciate the opportunity to ask 

the questions. 
27 

Mr. ROGERS. The Chair has recognized the individuals who are 

present for their questions. They can ask what questions they want 

to. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Montana for 5 

minutes for any questions he may have. Mr. Zinke. 

Mr. ZINKE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as a former SEAL 

[Sea, Air, Land teams] commander I have tried to stay away from 

nuclear weapons. Some of that earlier in my career. You may recall 

we had the man-portable one, and I was unfortunately selected to 

that program. I am glad we see it gone away. 

Having said that, the triad, explain to me, General Rand, on the 

order and magnitude of your rack and stack of operating costs and 

sustainment. What is the rack and stack of our triad? 

General RAND. I will talk to the two legs that I have and I will 

defer to Admiral Haney on the submarine. Right now the ICBM, 

the operations and sustainment yearly is $1.2 billion. For our bomber fleet that end is $2.5 billion for operations and 

sustainment. That is pretty cost effective. That makes up approximately 5.4 percent of the Air Force’s TOA [total obligation authority] budget. 

Mr. ZINKE. And Admiral. 

General RAND. And if I may? The one thing with the bombers I 

would go while it is more expensive than ICBM, sir, remember it 

is dual capable. We are also getting conventional use out of all our 

bombers that are doing multiple things at any given time. So that 

number is not just supporting the nuclear enterprise. 

Mr. ZINKE. And Admiral, want to weigh in? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman, I don’t have numbers with me 

today, so I will have to take it for the record. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix on 

page 105.] 

Admiral HANEY. I would just say it is more complicated than 

looking at a rack and stack of operating costs and what have you. 

It is the attributes associated with each leg of the triad that have 

to be balanced with the associated costs. 

So to not have your most survivable leg of the triad would have 

significant consequences to the value of the triad. 

Mr. ZINKE. So would it be safe to say that the land-based is a 

cost-effective part of the triad given what it provides? 

Admiral HANEY. Well, I would say every leg of the triad is effective. When you say land-based you are saying, I am assuming, specifically intercontinental ballistic missiles. 

Mr. ZINKE. Yes, sir. 

Admiral HANEY. But I would say the intercontinental ballistic 

missiles have certain attributes that are very effective in deterrent, 

others that are not so much. The business of being able to take a 

bomber and signal with it, as well as the flexibility with it in terms 

of things is very important to the deterrence equation. 

The business of, as we discussed earlier here, not knowing where 

the submarine is gives it a unique survivability attribute such that, 

again, no adversary will want to escalate their way out of a failed 

conflict. 

Mr. ZINKE. Provided the seas remain relatively transparent, 

right? 
28 

Admiral HANEY. Well, I will just say throughout my career, people have been trying to tell me that the seas are going to be transparent. I have done a lot of ASW [anti-submarine warfare] in my 

years of service, and ASW is hard, anti-submarine warfare. It is 

not a trivial business, and I don’t see in the foreseeable future the 

oceans becoming translucent. 

Mr. ZINKE. Well, let me shift to part of the supporting the landbased is the helicopters. Throughout this process we looked at it, 

we went back and forth, replace the UH–1 Novembers with another 

aircraft. Initially I looked at the Black Hawks. There was an existing contract. Let us just put them on there. It made sense from my 

perspective. 

I understand that fleet-wide we need to take a little more time 

to look at it. Given that what is in the NDAA now is to have it 

at least under contract by 2018 to allow bidding, have we taken 

any steps forward since then to look at the requirements of the— 

the fleet? 

General RAND. One thing I can tell you absolutely is Admiral 

Haney and I are absolutely in lockstep on is the need for a UH– 

1N replacement. 

Mr. ROGERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Missouri, Chairman Hartzler, for any questions she may have. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. First of all I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, 

for allowing me to be here today since—— 

Mr. ROGERS. Sure. 

Mrs. HARTZLER [continuing]. This isn’t one of my regular subcommittees. But given the topic of nuclear globalization and the 

guests that are here today, certainly appreciate the opportunity to 

visit about the nuclear deterrent, and certainly glad to see once 

again you, Admiral Haney and General Rand and as well as you, 

General Klotz. 

So the first question I have is for Secretary Scher, Admiral 

Haney and General Rand. And it kind of builds on some of the 

questioning that was done by my colleague Mr. Fleming talking 

about the LRSO a little bit. 

But we are hearing arguments that the LRSO should be cancelled, and the reason is because air-launched cruise missiles are, 

they say, destabilizing because they could be either nuclear-armed 

or conventionally armed. And that an adversary can mistake one 

for the other in a conflict. 

So are our current AGM–86 cruise missiles both conventional 

and nuclear? And do you consider them destabilizing? And along 

with that, do you believe our potential adversaries consider dualcapable cruise missiles destabilizing? 

So Secretary. 

Mr. SCHER. So I think we have evidence to suggest that we have 

strategic stability with the current systems, which can be both nuclear or conventionally armed. So I do think that point of your argument raises questions as to why a system that would be recapitalizing and modernizing an existing system and not adding new 

capabilities would suddenly be destabilizing. 

The other piece, of course, is that destabilizing in the nuclear 

context means does the adversary believe that you can have a dis-
29 

arming first strike? And that is not something that is possible with 

individual LRSO or the ALCM. So I think we believe that this is, 

in fact, that strategic stability would be decreased if we did not 

have an LRSO to replace the ALCM. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. Anyone else? Admiral. 

Admiral HANEY. I would also add that our adversaries are also, 

Russia, for example, has had air-launched cruise missiles of both 

variety. So we have had a history of the air-launched cruise missile, the ALCM, and it hasn’t been destabilizing. 

So the argument that seems not very thoughtful in that we have 

had this capability. I think the thing that is destabilizing if we let 

it decay and not have it, that will be destabilizing. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. That is good. Thank you. 

General RAND. Ma’am, I agree with what has been said already. 

We have been using the Air Force and the Navy cruise missiles 

now for over 30 years. And there hasn’t been any indication that 

it is destabilizing. 

I would also submit that if we went that, at least for the airbreather, then any one of our airplanes are dual capable, whether 

it is an F–16, the Strike Eagle, the B–52, the B–2, they all are carrying conventional weapons as well as nuclear weapons. 

So anytime they take off you would have to ask them is that destabilizing? 

Mrs. HARTZLER. You anticipate my second point, my second question, exactly. So we have the same issue with the aircraft because 

they are dual capable. Very good. 

General Klotz, I would like to turn to you. What are the impacts 

to the NNSA if the LRSO and its warhead, the W80–4 is significantly delayed or cancelled. 

In particular, and, you know, this is—I have met you before 

there at the Kansas City. So what are the impacts to the Kansas 

City National Security Campus as well as the Pantex Plant which 

do most of the production work and the Livermore National Lab 

and Sandia National Labs, which have primary design responsibility? 

General KLOTZ. Thank you very much for that question. First of 

all, let me emphasize there has been no decision made to delay the 

W80–4 life extension program. 

Mrs. HARTZLER. Right. 

General KLOTZ. And we are proceeding on the program of record 

as laid out in the President’s budget, in our Stockpile Stewardship 

Memorandum, and in the National Defense Authorization Act, 

which requires the Secretary of Energy to deliver a first production 

unit of a life-extended W80 warhead by 2025. 

This committee, I believe staff on this committee had asked each 

of those organizations that you mentioned what the impact would 

be, so don’t take my word for it. 

Let me just, if I could, in their responses, for instance, Sandia 

National Laboratory said, and this is, of course, responding to a hypothetical, that if this program were delayed by 5 years we would 

need to move the newly trained staff on the order of 300 to 600 

people to other currently undefined programs or lose staff by attrition. 
30 

And if we ever had to restart that program we would have difficulty in recruiting and rehiring new people do that. Same comments from the other parts of the nuclear security enterprise. 

As I mentioned earlier, we have very carefully phased programs 

in terms of our life extension programs. As we finish work on one 

or two of them concurrently we are ready to move into the next 

program using many of the same skilled workforce, many of the 

same processes, many of the same components that are made in 

Kansas City and elsewhere. 

So if you have a 1 to 2 or 3-, 4-, 5-year gap because of a decision 

to cancel a program or because of, you know, lack of funding or extended, you know, CRs [continuing resolutions] or whatever the 

case may be, it has an impact on our ability to get these jobs done 

on budget and on time. 

Mr. ROGERS. The gentlelady’s time has expired. I thank the panelist. 

The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. 

Franks, for 5 minutes. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank all of 

you. General Rand, it is good to see you again. 

And Admiral Haney, appreciate you. 

I don’t know the rest of you quite as well, but I appreciate you 

for being here. 

Mr. Chairman, I have a small document that was put together 

by my staff and it sort of highlights the list of quotes from some 

of the senior DOD officials about why we believe that LRSO is so 

important. And I am asking for unanimous consent to allow it to 

be put in the record. 

Mr. ROGERS. Without objection so ordered. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix on 

page 96.] 

Mr. FRANKS. Thank you. 

I might just read a couple of quotes off it, Mr. Chairman. From 

Secretary of Defense Carter in May of last year, he said the reason 

for the advanced cruise missile is to replace the missile that exists 

now, in recognition of the fact that air defenses are improving 

around the world and that keeping that capability to penetrate air 

defenses with our nuclear deterrent is an important one. 

‘‘I think it is important to continue to have a penetrating airbreathing missile for nuclear deterrence.’’ That is Secretary Carter. 

Second one from Under Secretary of Defense Frank Kendall. ‘‘As 

potential adversaries acquire more advanced air defenses and nuclear forces, the credibility of our nuclear standoff capability will 

undoubtedly deteriorate.’’ 

‘‘Our allies will feel this deterioration most acutely. And without 

the LRSO’s advanced standoff capabilities, the bomber leg of the 

triad will gradually become a symbol of our decline rather than a 

bellwether of our enduring American strength.’’ 

Admiral Haney and General Rand, I wanted, if I could, to ask 

both of you your professional military views on the LRSO. I know 

you guys have talked about it since before I got here, and I apologize that I missed it. But it is in my mind important enough to 

maybe reiterate anything that you feel would be necessary. 
31 

Can you describe the military requirements that are driving the 

need for the LRSO? And how do deterrence requirements, aging in 

our current cruise missile and bombers, and developments in other 

nations influence this need for the LRSO? 

And I will start with you, Admiral Haney, and then to General 

Rand. 

Admiral HANEY. Thank you for the question, Congressman 

Franks. The LRSO is very important to strategic deterrence, assurance, extended deterrence, and strategic stability. Right now, since 

we have the air-launched cruise missile, consistent with some of 

the quotes you read, to not have that kind of capability would be 

very destabilizing. 

It would also make a less complex problem for any adversary. 

And since we do have adversaries that have nuclear weapons it is 

important that our deterrence capability is credible going into the 

future. 

And we also have nations that have invested in not only their 

nuclear arsenal but into anti-access/area-denial kind of capability. 

And that in itself has to be dealt with. 

So we don’t want to dilute this problem for any adversary. We 

want to make sure that deterrence works—— 

Mr. FRANKS. Yes. 

Admiral HANEY [continuing]. Not just now but well into the future and consequently we need that kind of capability. 

I will turn it over to General Rand. 

General RAND. Sir, as I mentioned earlier, professional airman 

for 37 years now and the enemy gets a vote. And the improvements 

in the anti-access and area-denial that the enemy now possesses 

and will continue to improve upon over the next 10 to 15 years, 

makes a long-range standoff capability critical for us to be able to 

put bombs on target, our missiles on target, that are intended to 

make it to the desired target. So we need that capability. 

The current ALCM, air-launched cruise missile, has aged out. It 

is already 30 years old. It is increasingly difficult to make it reliable, keep it reliable, and it is going to be darn near impossible for 

it to be survivable—— 

Mr. FRANKS. Yes. 

General RAND [continuing]. If it is needed in the future. 

Mr. FRANKS. Well, I guess I would be disingenuous if I wasn’t 

glad you said what you just said. Let me just add one other layer 

to it. In your professional military judgments, what would be the 

consequences of choosing to delay or cancel the LRSO program? 

I know it is probably you are just reiterating some of the—but 

what about the delay? What—— 

Admiral HANEY. A delay would put us at significant risk of impacting our air leg of the triad. Particularly important when you 

look at my air leg today it is primarily made up of B–52s. So being 

able to have that capability, not just today, it is a platform that 

will serve us well into 2040. And consequently that is why it is also 

important. 

And as we look at future platforms their ability to have standoff 

capability as we see these advances in air threats and what have 

you, will be very important so that we can maintain strategic stability. 
32 

General RAND. I am the force provider of our nuclear forces to 

Admiral Haney and the President, and I would have to tell Admiral Haney that if we continue to rely on the ALCM past 2030 it 

would be very difficult for me to be able to provide the resources 

that he needs to accomplish the mission. 

Mr. FRANKS. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. ROGERS. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman’s time has 

expired. 

The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from California for 

any additional questions he may have. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. First of all, if I might put into the record two 

pieces of writing, one by our ranking member of the committee, Mr. 

Smith, and another one by former Secretary of Defense, Mr. Perry? 

Mr. ROGERS. Without objection so ordered. 

[The information referred to can be found in the Appendix beginning on page 98.] 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Thank you. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, when I approached you a few moments ago you were saying that it was fair 

that everybody have a chance to speak, and indeed that is true. 

But perhaps because my colleagues are not here and perhaps because there are not as many of us on this side as there are on your 

side, fairness would seem to be more along the line of equal time. 

If that were the case, I would request exactly 41 minutes of questioning so that our side would have equal time with your side. Is 

that possible, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. ROGERS. Committee rules were established at the beginning 

of the Congress. That is not the way the rules work. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. It is on the floor. 

Mr. ROGERS. Not in committee. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So I guess the answer is no. Therefore I will 

take 3 minutes and 48 seconds to try to respond to the questions 

here. But first let me congratulate you and your staff and your 

members for putting together a terrific show. One-sided to be sure, 

and the kind of questions that the American public should be asking, including questions about cost. 

Mr. Scher, you were the most disingenuous hearing representative of numbers I have yet heard in this committee. And I must tell 

you I am very, very disappointed in you because you disassembled 

the truth by eliminating from the discussion extraordinary costs associated with the bombs, with the command and control, the production facilities, and the cleanup. So understand my disappointment. Your numbers are bullshit. 

Now, a couple of questions. Admiral Haney, Secretary Scher, the 

United States has uncontested conventional superiority, does it 

not? Conventional superiority? 

Admiral HANEY. I—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. We also have undetectable submarines. Admiral 

Haney, thank you for your testimony here today about the submarines and whether they are detectable or not in two different 

questions, one from mine and one from one of my colleagues here. 

It certainly gives a second strike capability. Does those submarines also give us first strike capability? Admiral? 

Admiral HANEY. Well, first of all I would say our conventional capability is—— 
33 

Mr. GARAMENDI. That is not the question I am asking. I am asking the question about the submarines, first strike, second strike. 

Submarines good for both? 

Admiral HANEY. The submarine leg is designed to be the most 

survivable leg in order to provide us the second strike capability. 

But clearly the President could decide how he would want to use 

the capability. The only—— 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So the answer is yes they are good for first 

strike as well as second strike. 

Admiral HANEY. They could be, yes. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Yes, they could. How much redundant—what is 

this all about? And the questions here and the discussion here 

would indicate that we are looking at these nuclear weapons for 

conventional, for normal warfare. Is that correct? 

Or is it only to deter any nuclear? What are we talking about 

here? What is this all about, the fundamental question? 

Admiral HANEY. I think first and foremost, in terms of references, you go back to the Nuclear Posture Review, it specifically 

cites that we have nuclear weapons in order to provide nuclear deterrence for our country, assurance for our allies. If deterrence 

fails, it is also my job to provide options to the President in order 

to carry out his orders. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So it is about deterrence. That is what these nuclear weapons are for, deterrence? 

Admiral HANEY. It is to deter strategic—to deter nuclear war, 

but if deterrence fails let no adversary have any doubt that we 

have plans in order to deal with that, that have been also articulated in the employment guidance for the nuclear weapons. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Okay. Do we then consider these weapons also 

for conventional war? 

Admiral HANEY. Congressman, I think you know we have conventional options. And to your first point you said we have significant conventional capability. But conventional weapons will not 

deter nuclear capability from an adversary. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. So the answer is yes? 

Admiral HANEY. The answer is the answer I gave. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Well, then I will interpret your answer as yes. 

Admiral HANEY. You want yes/no answers. I am not into that 

game. I am a commander of significant military capability. Deterrence is an important issue for our Nation’s—our Nation’s survivability. Nuclear weapons provide an existential threat to our country. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Indeed. 

Admiral HANEY. And we have to deal with it from a deterrence 

standpoint and an assurance standpoint to our allies. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Well, I would agree with you that the principal 

purpose, in fact, the only purpose is to deter the use of nuclear 

weapons in any circumstance. 

Well, I have gone 43 seconds into my request for 41 minutes. I 

guess I had best quit. 

Mr. ROGERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. 

The Chair would make note of the fact that Mr. Scher has demonstrated himself to be nothing but competent, candid, and forth-
34 

right in his responses before this committee in every appearance, 

including this one. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Well, I disagree. 

Mr. ROGERS. I have already noted that. 

Mr. Scher, you are welcome to take the floor and make any statements if you would like to, and you don’t have to if you don’t want 

to. 

Mr. SCHER. I can’t imagine there is anything I would say that 

would solve the problem that Congressman Garamendi has presented. 

Mr. ROGERS. Great. I do have one last question. And by the way, 

you will be pleased to know because we have had such a very fruitful dialogue here today we are not going to have a classified annex 

session. 

But I would like to close, you know, I have met with all of y’all 

before this hearing and one of the questions I have got is if in fact 

the administration did choose to go down the path of either delaying or attempting to delay or terminating the LRSO or GBSD, as 

a practical matter how would they do that? 

Mr. Scher, do you have a thought? 

Mr. SCHER. I think that is a question I have thought about as 

well. Obviously the fiscal year 2017 budget, which is still the position of the administration, is up here on the Hill for action. So obviously you all have in your hands that issue. 

Certainly we will work on and could develop another budget, but 

that would be for the next term to do. But I would emphasize that 

at this point the decisions that hold, the President submitted to the 

Congress, are the position of the Department and the administration. 

Mr. ROGERS. Anybody have anything else to add to that about— 

your thoughts on that? General Rand. 

General RAND. Sir, earlier it was stated that as I almost welcomed to take on questions about—on that I was daring. My job is 

a force provider. 

I have two legs of the triad that I am responsible for. They are 

old. They are wearing out. And if I am asked to provide forces to 

do a mission, I have to be candid and tell you there will come a 

point where I cannot do it with existing capabilities because they 

are not reliable or they will not be survivable. 

I am acutely aware of the costs associated with this. I will give 

the consequences if we do not replace these aging, wore out systems. Other people decide if we are going to have the triad. I am 

going to tell you what will happen if we continue to use and rely 

on the things that we currently have. We need to modernize. 

Mr. ROGERS. Great. Thank you all. This Congress and this administration cannot do its job effectively without the wise counsel 

of individuals such as yourselves. And we appreciate what you 

have done for our country heretofore, and what you have done for 

us here today. 

And with that, this committee is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 4:13 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] 
A P P E N D I X 

JULY 14, 2016 

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RESPONSE TO QUESTION SUBMITTED BY MR. ZINKE 

Admiral HANEY. Details concerning Triad operating costs are included in the annual Report on the Plan for the Nuclear Weapons Stockpile, Nuclear Weapons Complex, Nuclear Weapons Delivery Systems, and Nuclear Weapons Command and Control System [as specified in Section 1043 of the National Defense Authorization Act 

for Fiscal Year 2012]. The operations and sustainment (O&S) costs for nuclear delivery systems include legacy system operations and maintenance and associated personnel to support those systems. 

The Ohio-class submarine and Trident II (D5) ballistic missile approximate average annual O&S cost is $4.2B (FY16–FY20). The Intercontinental Ballistic Missile 

(ICBM) force approximate O&S annual cost average is $1.5B (FY16–FY20). Finally, 

the strategic bomber and air delivered weapon approximate O&S annual cost average is $2.8B (FY16–FY20). [See page 27.] 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING 

JULY 14, 2016 

(109) 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. ROGERS 

Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, does the Department of Defense believe President 

Obama’s nuclear modernization plans are undercutting nuclear nonproliferation efforts? Do our allies fear that recapitalizing the U.S. nuclear triad, building the 

LRSO cruise missile, and life-extending our nuclear warheads is creating a new nuclear arms race? 

Mr. SCHER. The U.S. modernization program is fully consistent with the Administration’s nonproliferation efforts and is not triggering a nuclear arms race; it is designed to decrease the likelihood of a future arms race. We are decreasing the number of nuclear warheads and types of delivery systems in the arsenal, not increasing 

them. The Administration’s plan focuses on sustaining and modernizing the platforms, delivery systems, and warheads of our current triad to preserve existing military capabilities in the face of evolving threats, rather than developing new nuclear 

weapons with new military capabilities. This approach decreases the likelihood of 

a future arms race by maintaining a deterrent capability that is robust and stable, 

rather than one that is necessarily reactionary to every move by potential adversaries. Our allies and partners in both Europe and Asia are counting on U.S. nuclear modernization to enable the continuance of extended deterrence commitments 

that help assure them they do not need to pursue their own nuclear arsenals. 

Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, does the building of the LRSO nuclear cruise missile result in a more ‘‘usable’’ weapon that the existing cruise missile? Is it going 

to lower the nuclear-use threshold and be used for nuclear warfighting—or does it 

strengthen deterrence? 

Mr. SCHER. Like all U.S. nuclear weapons, the fundamental role of the LongRange Standoff (LRSO) cruise missile is to deter nuclear attack. LRSO will not be 

more ‘‘usable’’ than the existing AGM–86B Air-Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) it 

replaces. Rather, it is critical for maintaining the range of explosive yields and response options currently available to the President for deterring and, if necessary, 

responding to nuclear attack. Retaining capabilities that maintain credible means 

for responding to a nuclear attack strengthens our ability to deter such an attack 

from ever taking place. The United States has long maintained a high threshold for 

contemplating nuclear use. Sustaining the capability currently provided by the 

ALCM will not lower the threshold for U.S. nuclear use. 

Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, do you think President Obama’s nuclear modernization plan is affordable? What are its costs in both an absolute sense and a relative 

sense—compared to the defense budget or the Federal budget, for instance? How do 

nuclear recapitalization costs compare to broader conventional recapitalization costs 

within DOD? 

Mr. SCHER. Sustaining effective nuclear deterrence is the highest priority of the 

Department of Defense (DOD). The Administration’s nuclear modernization program 

is affordable if prioritized appropriately by the Department, Congress, and the Nation. DOD estimates that the total cost for recapitalizing our nuclear forces will be 

in the range of $350–$450B over the next twenty years. To put this in context, the 

total defense budget in FY 2016 alone is $580B. Annual costs for nuclear modernization, which are separate from nuclear sustainment and operations, are projected to 

peak in the late 2020s at 3–4 percent of FY 2017-level annual DOD spending, or 

about the equivalent of 11 percent of the DOD’s total FY 2017 acquisition budget, 

if projected out assuming 2 percent annual inflation. 

Sustaining effective nuclear deterrence is the highest priority of the Department 

of Defense (DOD). The Administration’s nuclear modernization program is affordable if prioritized appropriately by the Department, Congress, and the Nation. DOD 

estimates that the total cost for recapitalizing our nuclear forces will be in the range 

of $350–$450B over the next twenty years. To put this in context, the total defense 

budget in FY 2016 alone is $580B. Annual costs for nuclear modernization, which 

are separate from nuclear sustainment and operations, are projected to peak in the 

late 2020s at 3–4 percent of FY 2017-level annual DOD spending, or about the 

equivalent of 11 percent of the DOD’s total FY 2017 acquisition budget, if projected 

out assuming 2 percent annual inflation. 
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Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, you chair a key committee within NATO related to 

nuclear and deterrence planning. Based on its most recent communique from the 

Warsaw Summit, does NATO support a nuclear no-first-use declaratory policy? 

What would be the impacts to NATO if the U.S. were to declare a nuclear no-firstuse policy of its own? 

Mr. SCHER. NATO’s nuclear declaratory policy was most recently reiterated in the 

Warsaw Summit: the fundamental purpose of NATO’s nuclear capability is to preserve peace, prevent coercion, and deter aggression. This policy was developed in the 

context of the current U.S. declaratory policy. The circumstances in which NATO 

might have to use nuclear weapons are extremely remote, but if the fundamental 

security of any of its members were threatened, NATO has the capabilities and resolve to impose costs on an adversary that would be unacceptable and far outweigh 

the benefits that an adversary could hope to achieve. Any decisions regarding 

changes to U.S. nuclear declaratory policy should be done in consultation with our 

allies, including NATO, to ensure that our allies remain confident of our nuclear security commitments. 

Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, as we’ve discussed before, I’m deeply worried about 

what I consider to be a failure to respond to Russia’s violation of the INF treaty. 

I believe such failure emboldens Russia to act illegally in a manner of ways, not 

just on this treaty. So, I ask you, do you believe Russia has paid a price for its violation of the INF treaty? In what way? 

Mr. SCHER. Yes. Russia’s violation of the INF Treaty is a serious challenge to the 

security of the United States and its allies and partners; however, the development 

of Russia’s INF Treaty-violating system is only part of an overall pattern of Russia’s 

recent coercive and aggressive behavior. The Administration determined the best 

approach is to consider Russian actions with regard to the INF Treaty in the context 

of this overall bellicose behavior, and to respond across a range of areas. The Department of Defense (DOD) identified a range of military responses to Russia’s intermediate-range capabilities, including Russia’s Treaty-prohibited ground-launched 

cruise missile. The responses included active defenses to counter intermediate-range 

strike systems, counterforce capabilities to prevent Russian intermediate-range 

strikes, and countervailing strike capabilities to enhance U.S. or allied forces. These 

investments, taken together, form a comprehensive response to the broader strategic 

environment, including Russian military actions, Russia’s aggressive behavior, and 

its violation of the INF Treaty. The responses will make impose a cost on Russia 

for aggressive behavior, to include actions that they may consider in the future, and 

include a range of efforts pursued unilaterally, bilaterally with allies and partners, 

and also collectively with the NATO Alliance. 

For example, DOD plans to continue the European Reassurance Initiative (ERI), with $789.3 million requested in Fiscal Year (FY) 2016. Under the ERI, the United 

States has increased our persistent, rotational air, land, and sea presence in the 

Baltics and in Central Europe to reassure Allies and to deter Russian aggression. 

ERI also enables the United States to expand bilateral and multilateral exercises 

in Europe to improve interoperability and to strengthen U.S. warfighting capability 

in the face of newer threats from Russia. DOD is seeking funding for ERI in FY 

2017. 

Mr. ROGERS. Secretary Scher, what are the counterintelligence risks of allowing 

China to inspect our THAAD site in South Korea, once that missile defense capability has been deployed? Can you commit to this committee that we will have access to any intelligence assessment done to evaluate this question before the Administration makes any decision to allow such access? 

Mr. SCHER. The Department of Defense currently has no plans and has made no 

decisions regarding third-party access to a future Terminal High-Altitude Aerial Defense (THAAD) site in the Republic of Korea. Regarding any intelligence assessment 

of the site, we would defer to the Intelligence Community on releasability questions. 

Mr. ROGERS. Admiral Haney, in your capacity as commander of Strategic Command, would you find yourself more likely to recommend to a President that he use 

an LRSO than you would with our current air-launched cruise missile? Is LRSO 

more ‘‘usable’’ in your mind—and therefore more likely to be used? 

Admiral HANEY. As stated in the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review, the use of nuclear 

weapons would only be considered in extreme circumstances to defend the vital interests of the United States and its allies. As such, the Long Range Standoff (LRSO) 

cruise missile will not be ‘‘more usable’’ than the current Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM). 

The LRSO program replaces the aging ALCM which has far exceeded its originally planned service life. The LRSO will continue to provide the President an effective nuclear standoff capability to address a range of contingencies in non-permissive environments. 
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Mr. ROGERS. Admiral Haney, the administration has sought further reductions in 

deployed strategic nuclear forces beyond the levels in the current New START Treaty. Do you believe these further reductions should be done unilaterally, or must they 

be done in concert with Russia via a bilateral and verifiable treaty? Are more robust 

and intrusive verification measures needed at such lower force levels? 

Admiral HANEY. Any proposal to change our deployed strategic nuclear forces beyond the levels in New START should be examined within the context of a bilateral 

and verifiable treaty architecture. Such a path moving forward offers the best 

means to preserve strategic stability through qualitative and quantitative parity. 

More robust verification measures are not necessarily needed at lower force levels. 

There is not a simple tradeoff between lower force structure levels and more robust 

and intrusive verification measures. Over the course of numerous U.S.-Russia arms 

control agreements both parties have approved sufficient measures to achieve 

verification. The challenge is in determining what verification mechanisms are appropriate. It would be premature to provide an assessment on the necessary 

verification measures without further information regarding the specific context of 

any proposed negotiations at lower force levels. 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. COOPER 

Mr. COOPER. Several independent estimates place DOD and NNSA costs associated with the nuclear deterrence mission over the next 30 years at approximately 

$350 billion per year for the next 10 years. These costs for modernization will grow 

significantly in the late-2020s, with the nuclear deterrence mission potentially costing about a trillion dollars over 30 years. Please provide further information detailing Secretary Scher’s assessment of $350–$450 billion over 20 years for nuclear 

modernization/recapitalization. 

General KLOTZ. This question would be more appropriate for DOD to answer. 

Mr. COOPER. What are the risks and benefits of a no-first-use policy? Under what 

circumstances would the U.S. benefit from using nuclear weapons first? 

Mr. SCHER. Adopting a no-first-use policy could, in theory, be beneficial if it reduced the risk of nuclear attack or coercion against the United States and its allies, 

or otherwise led nuclear-armed potential adversaries to reduce the role of nuclear 

weapons in their security strategies. The risk of adopting a no-first-use policy is that 

it might instead undermine deterrence and weaken our ability to assure allies and 

partners that they do not need their own nuclear arsenals. 

We will not speculate about the benefits and risks of using nuclear weapons in 

hypothetical scenarios; however, we should be clear that the purpose of U.S. nuclear 

weapons is to deter nuclear attack on the United States and its allies and partners, 

deter other threats against U.S. and allied vital interests, and achieve U.S. objectives if deterrence fails. Therefore, we must assess alternative declaratory policies 

not only for the impact they might have on U.S. employment decisions, but also for 

how potential adversaries and U.S. allies and partners would perceive those policies 

and the consequent effect they would have on extended deterrence, assurance, and 

our nonproliferation objectives. 

Mr. COOPER. Do you believe we could control escalation once a nuclear weapon 

is used? 

Mr. SCHER. No one should have absolute confidence in their ability to control escalation in a conflict between States with nuclear arsenals postured to ensure secondstrike capabilities. This understanding underscores our view that the fundamental 

role of nuclear weapons is to deter nuclear attack against the United States, its allies, and partners. However, effective deterrence requires a balanced approach to escalation risk. We must be prepared if an adversary creates a conflict and drives it 

across the nuclear threshold; we do not want to simply assume that if the nuclear 

threshold is crossed that escalation cannot be limited. We are tasked with providing 

the President with credible options for responding to nuclear threats and nuclear 

aggression, including responding to limited nuclear use. Possessing an appreciation 

of escalation risk together with a range of options for responding to nuclear attack 

makes credible our message that adversaries cannot escalate their way out of failed 

conventional aggression. 

Mr. COOPER. What are the benefits and risks of doing away with launch-on-warning policy? What impacts, if any, could changes to this policy have on force structure? 

Mr. SCHER. The United States does not have a launch-on-warning policy. We instead retain the option for the President to launch intercontinental ballistic missiles 

(ICBMs) under attack, while also planning to ensure that we are not reliant on 

doing so. The difference between launch-on-warning and launch-under-attack is at-
112 

tack assessment. Launch-under-attack is not based solely on a single warning indicator; rather, an attack assessment considers data from multiple sensors and the 

apparent intent of the incoming attack in the context of the international situation. 

This policy of retaining the option to launch under attack enhances deterrence of 

large-scale nuclear attack. Potential adversaries with large nuclear arsenals cannot 

be certain of their ability to destroy U.S. ICBMs because the President has the option of launching those forces before the incoming adversary strike reaches its targets. 

The capability to launch ICBMs before they are destroyed by an incoming attack 

does not place a requirement on the President to do so. Although the United States 

has the ability to launch its ICBMs promptly after an authenticated, encrypted, and 

securely transmitted order from the President, this does not mean our nuclear forces 

are on a ‘‘hair-trigger’’ alert posture. The United States employs multiple, rigorous, 

and redundant technical and procedural safeguards to protect against accidental or 

unauthorized launch or a launch based on incorrect information. 

Eliminating the option to launch under attack would reduce Presidential flexibility, as the President would not have the option of launching ICBMs before an incoming strike destroyed all or a portion of them. This, in turn, would reduce uncertainty about the consequences of a large-scale nuclear attack against the United 

States. Eliminating launch-under-attack does not increase Presidential decisiontime; it only takes away the President’s option to decide. 

Eliminating the ability to launch under attack would not necessitate any changes 

in force structure, but eliminating the responsiveness of the ICBM force could lead 

to future requirements to bolster other elements of U.S. nuclear force structure and 

posture, such as bomber alert levels. Some argue that the United States could reduce the alert-level of our ICBMs if there was no ability to launch under attack. 

This change to our nuclear posture, however, would entail serious risks to strategic 

stability, because de-alerting ICBMs might incentivize an adversary to strike first 

in a crisis before forces were re-alerted. It would also degrade our ability to hold 

time-sensitive targets at risk with ICBMs. 

Mr. COOPER. The 2010 Nuclear Posture Review stated that the use of nuclear 

weapons would only be contemplated in the most extreme circumstances to defend 

U.S. or allied survival. Is this still the policy of the United States? And in this context, would the use of low-yield nuclear weapon be required as a response to a potential use of a low-yield nuclear weapon by Russia? 

Mr. SCHER. The policies laid out in the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review Report remain in effect. The fundamental role of U.S. nuclear weapons, which will continue 

as long as nuclear weapons exist, is to deter nuclear attack on the United States, 

its allies, and partners. The United States would only consider the use of nuclear 

weapons in extreme circumstances to defend its vital interests. 

The nuclear and conventional forces of the United States support a range of options available to the President for responding to nuclear attack, including options 

for responding to an adversary’s potential use of a low-yield nuclear weapon. Determining what response best serves the security interests of the United States and 

its allies and partners is a Presidential decision. There is no required response to 

any specific type of adversary attack. 

Mr. COOPER. Several independent estimates place DOD and NNSA costs associated with the nuclear deterrence mission over the next 30 years at approximately 

$350 billion per year for the next 10 years. These costs for modernization will grow 

significantly in the late-2020s, with the nuclear deterrence mission potentially costing about a trillion dollars over 30 years. Please provide further information detailing Secretary Scher’s assessment of $350–$450 billion over 20 years for nuclear 

modernization/recapitalization. 

Mr. SCHER. The Department of Defense (DOD) Office of Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation estimates that the total cost of recapitalizing U.S. nuclear forces 

will be $350 billion–$450 billion over the next twenty years. DOD will continue to 

refine its estimate as a number of modernization programs mature in the coming 

years. 

This estimate covers the full cost of recapitalizing the nuclear weapon delivery 

systems and warheads of the U.S. strategic triad. It includes the Ohio Replacement 

Program submarine; the Ground-Based Strategic Deterrent; the Long-Range Standoff cruise missile; the Air Force tail kit assembly for the B61–12 gravity bomb; and 

the full cost of the B–21 bomber (even though this aircraft is also being developed 

to meet conventional warfighting requirements). It also includes modernization of 

nuclear command, control, and communications. Finally, this estimate includes annual DOD funds reprogrammed to the National Nuclear Security Administration 

(NNSA) to support warhead modernization activities, including Life Extension Programs described in NNSA’s Stockpile Stewardship Management Plan. 
113 

The DOD estimate excludes nuclear force sustainment and operation, which are $12 billion in FY 2017. It also excludes NNSA infrastructure recapitalization, such 

as construction of new uranium and plutonium facilities. These additional costs are 

necessary for the United States to remain a nuclear weapons state irrespective of 

what our nuclear modernization plans entail. 

Mr. COOPER. Is there a military requirement to make the Long-Range Stand-Off 

Weapon have conventional capability? 

Admiral HANEY. The Fiscal Year 2014 National Defense Authorization Act [Section 217(a)(1)] requires the Air Force develop a conventional variant of the LRSO 

prior to the retirement of the existing Conventional Air Launched Cruise Missile 

(CALCM). The CALCM retirement timeline has not been established and DOD does 

not have a specific plan for developing a conventional LRSO variant at this time. 

Mr. COOPER. What are the risks and benefits of a no-first-use policy? Under what 

circumstances would the U.S. benefit from using nuclear weapons first? 

Admiral HANEY. As stated in the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review, the current policy 

is: 

The U.S. will continue to strengthen conventional capabilities and reduce the role 

of nuclear weapons in deterring non-nuclear attacks with the objective of making 

deterrence of nuclear attack on the United States or our allies and partners the sole 

purpose of U.S. nuclear weapons The U.S. would only consider the use of nuclear 

weapons in extreme circumstances to defend the vital interests of the U.S. or its 

allies and partners The U.S. will not use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against 

non-nuclear weapons states that are party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty 

and in compliance with their nuclear non-proliferation obligations This policy is an 

important contributor to maintaining strategic stability. U.S. extended deterrence 

and assurance commitments ensure that our allies remain confident in our capabilities, with the added benefit of reducing the likelihood of nuclear proliferation. Beyond the implications this has for achieving Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty goals, 

the ability of the U.S. to dissuade nuclear weapon acquisition minimizes strategic 

risk. In short, the current policy promotes strategic stability and guarantees the 

safety and security of our allies under any scenario when their very existence and 

way of life may be threatened. Substantial analysis and dialogue should be conducted including specific analysis associated with U.S. allies and partner assurance 

perspectives to weigh the impact a ‘‘No First Use’’ policy would have. Among other 

things, such analysis should consider the following: 

‘‘No First Use’’ policy removes ambiguity for U.S. adversaries Potential aggressors 

may not fear U.S. nuclear response even if they attacked with advanced conventional, chemical, and/or biological weapons. They would risk U.S. nuclear retaliation 

only if they attacked with nuclear weapons Allies and partners would no longer be 

assured via the U.S. nuclear umbrella. As such they may even consider acquiring 

their own nuclear weapons. 

Mr. COOPER. Do you believe we could control escalation once a nuclear weapon 

is used? 

Admiral HANEY. Yes, I believe it may be possible but I hope to never find out. 

Efforts to control escalation must consider and employ all elements of national 

power via a whole of government approach. A military response, be it nuclear, conventional or non-kinetic, is merely one tool available to the President. As discussed 

in the ‘‘Report on Nuclear Employment Strategy of the United States’’ specified in 

Section 491 of 10 U.S.C. (June 2013), the Presidential guidance ‘‘. . . directs that 

DOD will maintain a sufficient, diversified and survivable capability at all times 

with high confidence and capability to convince any potential adversary that the adverse consequences of attacking the United States or our Allies and partners far 

outweigh any potential benefit they may seek to gain from such an attack. It also 

preserves the flexibility to respond with a range of options to meet the President’s 

stated objectives should deterrence fail’’. In keeping with this guidance, USSTRATCOM has developed options across the spectrum of potential responses, including 

nuclear options, in order to provide decision space to the President so he/she can 

respond appropriately to the conditions at hand. However, it is solely a Presidential 

decision if and when those options are executed. 

Mr. COOPER. What are the benefits and risks of doing away with launch-on-warning policy? What impacts, if any, could changes to this policy have on force structure? 

Admiral HANEY. As discussed in the ‘‘Report on Nuclear Employment Strategy of 

the United States’’ specified in Section 491 of 10 U.S.C. (June 2013), the revised 

Presidential Guidance recognizes the significantly diminished possibility of a disarming surprise nuclear attack and directs DOD to examine further options to reduce the role Launch Under Attack plays in U.S. planning, while retaining the ability to Launch Under Attack if directed. Thus USSTRATCOM has developed options 
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across the spectrum of potential responses, including nuclear options, in order to 

provide decision space to the President so he/she can respond appropriately to the 

conditions at hand. It is solely a Presidential decision if and when those options are 

executed. 

Mr. COOPER. The 2010 Nuclear Posture Review stated that the use of nuclear 

weapons would only be contemplated in the most extreme circumstances to defend 

U.S. or allied survival. Is this still the policy of the United States? And in this context, would the use of low-yield nuclear weapon be required as a response to a potential use of a low-yield nuclear weapon by Russia? 

Admiral HANEY. The 2010 Nuclear Posture Review remains the policy of the 

United States, to wit, ‘‘the U.S. would only consider the use of nuclear weapons in 

extreme circumstances to defend the vital interests of the U.S. or its allies and partners.’’ 

How and when the United States uses a nuclear weapon is a Presidential decision. The current and planned conventional and nuclear force structures are specifically designed to provide the President with the best possible range of tailorable response options. This provides the President and his senior advisors with the flexibility to evaluate courses of action in light of a host of considerations. 

Mr. COOPER. Are you confident that the required changes in culture to improve 

the morale and performance of missileers are being implemented effectively? What 

challenges, if any, remain? 

General RAND. Yes. Over the last two years, we have worked very hard to improve the overall culture in the missile community, and we are now seeing the benefits of our efforts focused on manning, training, operations, equipment, infrastructure and morale. Our Command has built a culture of empowerment versus one of 

strict compliance, allowing our young and motivated officers to set and achieve 

goals, while distinctively recognizing and rewarding them for excellence in the nuclear enterprise. 

With respect to manning, we overhauled the missileer career path to retain experience and further promote the development of weapon system expertise. We are attracting talent with ROTC scholarships and active recruiting. Additionally, we repositioned instructors from centrally-located wing organizations and moved them out 

to the operational missile squadrons. As part of this initiative, we’ve mandated instructors be on their second assignment as a missileer to ensure they have a wider 

breadth of knowledge to share with younger officers. We also added two field grade 

officers in leadership positions to every squadron. These actions provide our young 

missileers opportunities for daily mentorship, as well as guidance on viable options 

for career paths. As a result we have made more effective use of our human resources, while simultaneously promoting career development. 

On the training and operations front, we revised our AFGSC directives governing 

training, completely re-vamping our methods—from part-task training to mission 

execution. Mirroring other comparable USAF operations disciplines, we shifted to 

pass-fail testing and refocused the emphasis from test performance to training and 

learning. These combined efforts shifted our missileers’ focus from grades to tasks, 

ultimately resulting in enhanced mission proficiency. Operationally, we’ve promoted 

stability in alert scheduling of missile crews through effective utilization of all wing 

assigned and qualified personnel, as well as established the means to monitor and 

detect if an organization exceeds established alert rate levels. Rigorous attention on 

scheduling of alert and training activities provides greater predictability and protects the time off of Missile Wing personnel. 

As a result of Force Improvement Funds, we acquired 95 new vehicles in FY14 

for missileers and maintenance personnel to travel to their remote operating locations, and an additional 576 vehicles in FY15 and FY16 for all nuclear bases. With 

the FY16 NDAA $322M infusion for modernization of equipment and infrastructure 

at our installations, we were able to fund a new Weapons Storage Facility at F.E. 

Warren Air Force Base and a Tactical Response Force Alert Facility at Malmstrom 

Air Force Base. Looking forward, we are requesting $440M for future nuclear infrastructure requirements across the command. Our desire is to fund the Minuteman 

III and UH–1N replacement. In the last two years, we have made great strides to 

improve the Morale, Welfare and Recreation facilities at our bases. All our fitness 

centers have implemented 24/7 operating hours, providing access for all our Airmen, 

regardless of duty shifts. The Air Force Food Transformation Initiative continues to 

be implemented at our installations and will provide our Airmen more dining options with expanded menus. Additionally, we have expanded non-appropriated funds 

for locally-developed programs. 

Our challenge is to ensure we never return to the culture of old. To this end, I’ve 

established a directorate in my command to focus on leadership development, lessons learned and innovation. This helps promote the flow of ideas for improvement 
115 

from the lowest levels in the field directly to myself. I personally chair a monthly 

council which reviews all our initiatives, fosters best practices, and allows for sharing of lessons learned between Wings and Numbered Air Forces. I receive regular 

status updates on our open force improvement items. I solicit input from my Commanders in the field where inefficiencies and redundancies exist that undermine our 

Airmen’s time and weaken their motivation. I empower them to stop doing those 

things that take away our ability to fulfill our mission responsibilities and weaken 

morale. 

I appreciate your support as we continue to improve our nation’s nuclear forces, 

ensuring our Strikers have the resources necessary to ensure they are always prepared to safely, securely and effectively carry out their duties which our nation has 

entrusted to them. 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. GARAMENDI 

Mr. GARAMENDI. General Klotz: How many plutonium pits are required for 

planned life extension programs? How many new pits are required? 

General KLOTZ. This information was previously provided to the Committee as 

part of the classified annex to the Fiscal Year (FY) 2017 Stockpile Stewardship and 

Management Plan in April 2016. NNSA remains committed to achieving war-reserve (WR) pit production levels set forth in the FY 2015 National Defense Authorization Act, and agreed to as part of the Nuclear Weapons Council (NWC) Strategic 

Plan, to support stockpile requirements for newly-manufactured pits. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney and General Klotz: How many pits are required 

to address geo-political surprise? What analysis was done to arrive at this number? 

Can you deliver this analysis to Congress? Why do we need to expand plutonium 

pit production capacity? 

General KLOTZ. The 2010 Nuclear Posture Review and 2013 Report to Congress 

on the Nuclear Employment Strategy (specified in 10 U.S.C. 491) state that a nondeployed hedge, properly sized and ready to address technical risks, also fulfills the 

requirements of a geopolitical hedge. Pits are only one of many critical components 

in a nuclear warhead, and are managed to support all stockpile activities (e.g., life 

extension programs, surveillance, and aging concerns). The January 16, 2014 Assessment of Nuclear Weapon Pit Production Requirements Report to Congress confirmed the requirement for achieving 50–80 pit per year production capacity by 

2030. This requirement was codified by Congress most recently in the 2016 NDAA 

(Sec. 3140), and is informed by the following factors: 1) U.S. policy objectives to 

maintain a safe, secure and effective nuclear deterrent is contingent on the national 

capability to produce plutonium pits, 2) Pit aging studies conclude pits will not have 

unlimited lifetime, and even with pit reuse, plutonium work may be required to assure weapon safety, security, and long term reliability to preclude the need for 

weapon testing, and 3) The ability to produce plutonium pits in sufficient quantity 

and timeliness to address technical issues is essential to the long term reduction of 

the non-deployed weapon stockpile. 

To meet our commitments, as set forth in the Fiscal Year 2015 National Defense 

Authorization Act and agreed to as part of the Nuclear Weapons Council (NWC) 

Baseline Plan, NNSA needs to produce newly-manufactured pits to support future 

stockpile requirements. NNSA’s current efforts to optimize existing infrastructure 

for plutonium operations at Los Alamos National Laboratory will support a maximum 30 pits per year (ppy) production capacity by 2026. In order to achieve production capacity beyond 30 ppy and support future stockpile needs, additional infrastructure is required. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Scher and Mr. Klotz, what is the plan to pay for nuclear 

modernization? Will the top line be raised or will other parts of the defense and energy budgets suffer? If so, which ones? Have discussions begun about how to pay 

for the nuclear enterprise during the coming bow wave in the 2020s and 2030s? 

General KLOTZ. Supporting the Administration’s agenda to maintain a safe, secure, and effective nuclear weapons stockpile, modernizing our nuclear security enterprise, and reducing the threat of nuclear proliferation remains a top priority. I 

am confident that the FY 2017 President’s budget for NNSA will fully meet all of 

our national nuclear security requirements. We have a very clear and shared view 

of what those requirements are. DOD and DOE, through the Nuclear Weapons 

Council, continue to assess budgets and programs to meet requirements in the coming years. The budget projections for future years, FY 2018–FY 2021, remain subject 

to the sequester caps set in the Budget Control Act of 2011. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Scher, on page two of your written testimony you state that 

‘‘The modernization costs, spread over twenty years, will be an estimated $350B– 
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$450B.’’ You then stated during the hearing that this figure did not include some 

costs associated with nuclear modernization, such as life extension programs for 

warheads. Please provide the committee with the source and precise composition of 

this figure. What costs, programs, and operations does the $350B–450B figure include? What costs reasonably associated with the nuclear mission does it exclude 

(such as warhead modernization, command and control modernization, operations, 

pit production capacity expansion, etc.)? 

Mr. SCHER. The Department of Defense (DOD) Office of Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE) estimates that the total cost of recapitalizing U.S. nuclear 

forces will be $350 billion–$450 billion over the next twenty years. DOD will continue to refine its estimate as a number of modernization programs mature in the 

coming years. This estimate covers the full projected cost of recapitalizing the nuclear weapon delivery systems and warheads of the U.S. strategic triad. It includes 

the Ohio Replacement Program submarine; the Ground-Based Strategic Deterrent; 

the Long-Range Standoff cruise missile; the Air Force tail kit assembly for the B61– 

12 gravity bomb; and the full cost of the B–21 bomber (even though this aircraft 

is also being developed to meet conventional warfighting requirements). CAPE’s recapitalization estimate also includes modernization of nuclear command, control, 

and communications. Finally, this estimate includes annual DOD funds reprogrammed to the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) to support warhead modernization activities, including Life Extension Programs described in 

NNSA’s Stockpile Stewardship Management Plan. 

The DOD estimate excludes nuclear force sustainment and operation, which are $12B in FY 2017. These costs would be necessary even if forgoing modernization 

and warhead life extension were a viable option. It also excludes NNSA infrastructure recapitalization, such as construction of new uranium and plutonium facilities, 

which like sustainment costs would be necessary even if forgoing force modernization were a viable option. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Scher, you are the chairman NATO’s Nuclear Planning 

Group. Can you describe the range of views our NATO allies have on the current 

U.S. nuclear modernization plan? 

Mr. SCHER. As is the case in the United States, views in Allied governments are 

wide-ranging and I will not speak to the opinions of other nations individually. However, it is very clear, as was reaffirmed most recently in the Warsaw Summit 

Communique ́, that all NATO governments fully endorse the enduring importance to 

the Alliance of nuclear deterrence, along with the unique role the United States 

plays in maintaining that deterrence. This role depends in part on modernizing U.S. 

nuclear weapons to ensure that NATO’s nuclear deterrence capability remains credible and effective. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Mr. Scher and Mr. Klotz, what is the plan to pay for nuclear 

modernization? Will the top line be raised or will other parts of the defense and energy budgets suffer? If so, which ones? Have discussions begun about how to pay 

for the nuclear enterprise during the coming bow wave in the 2020s and 2030s? 

Mr. SCHER. The nuclear modernization program is fully funded in the President’s 

Fiscal Year 2017 Budget Request. Modernization is affordable if prioritized appropriately by the Department, Congress, and the Nation. The Department scrutinizes 

its budget submission annually and evaluates potential tradeoffs to align with both 

near- and long-term national defense priorities. DOD will continue to work with the 

White House in building future budgets to determine how best to fund the modernization of the nuclear enterprise. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Under what circumstances would the U.S. consider the first use 

of the nuclear weapon? How do these scenarios influence military requirements and 

U.S. nuclear posture? How do these specific first-use scenarios affect the planned 

nuclear modernization? 

Mr. SCHER. The United States would only consider the use of nuclear weapons 

in extreme circumstances to defend the vital interests of the United States or its 

allies and partners. In the case of countries not covered by our negative security 

assurance—States that possess nuclear weapons and States not in compliance with 

their nuclear non-proliferation obligations—there remains a narrow range of contingencies in which U.S. nuclear weapons play a role in deterring a conventional, 

chemical, or biological weapon attack against the United States or its allies and 

partners. 

The U.S. nuclear modernization plan is designed to preserve Presidential flexibility to respond with a range of options to achieve U.S. and allied objectives should 

deterrence fail. Any potential specific first-use scenarios do not affect the planned 

U.S. nuclear modernization. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney, is reducing our deployed nuclear forces in accordance with the New START Treaty in the national security interests of the 
117 

United States? Would you support further, bilateral reductions below the current 

New START central limits? 

Admiral HANEY. Yes, the New START Treaty preserves strategic equivalence between the United States and Russia. It is a useful component in preserving strategic 

stability. Both the U.S. and Russia are on track to achieve the New START Central 

Limits within the terms set by the treaty. Continuing to remain in compliance is 

prudent. 

U.S.-Russia arms control agreements are in the best interests of the both parties 

and the Euro-Atlantic community. If further bilateral reductions below the current 

New START central limits are contemplated, the reduction would require further 

analysis and scrutiny, including a deep understanding of the scale and scope of any 

proposed reductions. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney: President Obama stated in 2013 that the United 

States could ‘‘ensure the security of America and our allies—and maintain a strong 

and credible strategic deterrent—while reducing our deployed strategic nuclear 

weapons by up to one-third’’. If a negotiated reduction could be reached, how would 

you recommend structuring U.S. nuclear forces if one-third fewer warheads? Would 

you recommend eliminating certain platforms? Rebalancing between legs of the 

triad? Simply reducing numbers with the same overall structure? 

Admiral HANEY. The current U.S. nuclear force structure provides the President 

a flexible, reliable, and survivable range of deterrence and assurance options to 

meet our strategic stability objectives. As part of the New START deliberation process, the Department completed a very thorough analysis process to inform negotiations. I would recommend that any future force structure or deployed weapon 

changes, as part of a negotiated reduction, occur in a similar manner. 

The value of the Triad in maintaining strategic stability is not strictly related to 

deployed launcher or weapon numbers. As stated in the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review, the Triad provides an assured second strike capability and the ability to mitigate unexpected technological problems or operational vulnerabilities in any single 

Triad leg. Therefore, even at reduced deployed weapon levels, the U.S. should maintain a credible and effective Triad to maintain strategic stability and meet our deterrence objectives and assurance commitments. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney: Please provide to the committee a list of consultants or contractors that STRATCOM uses for nuclear deterrence studies. 

Admiral HANEY. USSTRATCOM conducts nuclear deterrence studies and related 

analytical activities to ensure we meet our primary mission of deterring strategic 

attack on the U.S. and our allies. Formal policy recommendations and strategic decision making are internal functions conducted primarily and routinely by military 

and government civilian staff. Periodically, USSTRATCOM utilizes external and 

independent organizations to provide their perspectives on strategic deterrence. External organizations consist of the University Affiliated Research Center (UARC) 

and the Deterrence and Assurance Academic Alliance. 

—The UARC is the academic outreach USSTRATCOM utilizes for nuclear deterrence studies and is a 5-year sole sourced Individual Delivery, Indefinite Delivery 

Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract in partnership with the University of Nebraska. 

There is currently a contract agreement with the University of Nebraska which consists of five task orders supporting nuclear deterrence strategy and policy. The task 

orders are: Behavioral Influence, Deterrence Strategic Stage Set, Risk of Extended 

Deterrence, Development/Assessment of Narrative/Counter-Narrative, and Horizontal and Vertical Nuclear Proliferation. 

—The Deterrence and Assurance Academic Alliance is not a contracted entity but 

is a collaborative partnership with 31 confirmed member universities and partners. 

Objectives of the alliance include developing the next generation of deterrence professionals, establishing relationships and continuous dialogue with Academia, and 

stimulating new thinking in deterrence and assurance studies. USSTRATCOM currently has eight student teams and advisors at local universities and three National 

Defense University USSTRATCOM Scholars conducting research on deterrence and 

assurance issues. The Strategic Advisory Group (SAG) is an independent organization not funded by or in contract agreement with USSTRATCOM. With the SAG, 

nuclear deterrence strategy and policy subject matter experts provide their strategic 

deterrence and assurance perspectives to CDRUSSTRATCOM. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney and General Klotz: How many pits are required 

to address geo-political surprise? What analysis was done to arrive at this number? 

Can you deliver this analysis to Congress? Why do we need to expand plutonium 

pit production capacity? 

Admiral HANEY. The 2010 Nuclear Posture Review and 2013 Report to Congress 

on the Nuclear Employment Strategy (specified in Section 491 of 10 U.S.C.) states 

that a non-deployed weapon stockpile, properly sized and ready to address technical 
118 

risks, also fulfills the requirements for addressing geopolitical surprise. Accordingly, 

pit quantities are managed to support the non-deployed weapon stockpile as well 

as all required stockpile sustainment and life extension activities to maintain a safe, 

secure and effective nuclear arsenal. The January 16, 2014 Assessment of Nuclear 

Weapon Pit Production Requirements Report to Congress confirmed the requirement 

for achieving 50–80 pit per year production capacity by 2030. This requirement was 

codified by Congress most recently in the 2016 NDAA (Sec. 3140), and is informed 

by the following factors: 1) U.S. policy objectives to maintain a safe, secure and effective nuclear deterrent is contingent on the national capability to produce plutonium pits, 2) Pit aging studies conclude pits will not have unlimited lifetime, and 

even with pit reuse, plutonium work may be required to assure weapon safety, security, and long term reliability to preclude the need for weapon testing, and, 3) The 

ability to produce plutonium pits in sufficient quantity and timeliness to address 

technical issues is essential to the long term reduction of the non-deployed weapon 

stockpile. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Admiral Haney, please describe the current level and frequency 

of dialogue between the United States Government and Russia on strategic matters, 

to include military-to-military communication. Are you currently facing any statutory restrictions which interfere with your ability to communicate with Russia and 

ensure strategic stability? 

Admiral HANEY. U.S. and Russian officials regularly meet through a variety of bilateral and multilateral venues and at multiple levels. For instance, senior officials 

meet semiannually as part of the New START Bilateral Consultative Commission. 

Similarly, the Open Skies Consultative Commission holds working-level sessions on 

a monthly basis. More importantly, there are a wide array of regular and ad hoc 

meetings between U.S. and Russian governmental officials. 

While I lack awareness of all the intergovernmental interactions that occur with 

Russia, Public Law 114–92 (Fiscal Year 2016 NDAA) Subtitle E—Matters Relating 

to the Russian Federation ‘‘Section 1246. LIMITATION ON MILITARY COOPERATION BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.’’ 

does specifically address funding limitations for any bilateral military-to-military cooperation between the Governments of the United States and the Russian Federation pending certain actions. 

Mr. GARAMENDI. Under what circumstances would the U.S. consider the first use 

of the nuclear weapon? How do these scenarios influence military requirements and 

U.S. nuclear posture? How do these specific first-use scenarios affect the planned 

nuclear modernization? 

Admiral HANEY. I would refer to the policy articulated in the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review: 

• The U.S. will continue to strengthen conventional capabilities and reduce the 

role of nuclear weapons in deterring non-nuclear attacks, with the objective of 

making deterrence of nuclear attack on the United States or our allies and partners the sole purpose of U.S. nuclear weapons 

• The U.S. would only consider the use of nuclear weapons in extreme circumstances to defend the vital interests of the U.S. or its allies and partners 

• The U.S. will not use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear 

weapons states that are party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and in 

compliance with their nuclear nonproliferation obligations 

Thus, first use may be considered ‘‘in extreme circumstances to defend the vital 

interests of the U.S. or its allies and partners’’. It is our policy not to specify what 

those ‘‘extreme circumstances’’ are in order to preserve Presidential decision space 

ensuring they have the ability to respond as appropriate to the crisis at hand. This 

ambiguity enhances deterrence. 

We develop options that can be executed across a range of capabilities. Whether 

they are executed is solely a Presidential Decision. ‘‘First use’’ does not drive or even 

directly affect our posture or modernization. The modernization program must continue to ensure that the nuclear force structure is safe, secure, and effective. Without a modernization program that is intended to address the three aforementioned 

attributes, U.S. senior leaders would have less effective options. 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. AGUILAR 

Mr. AGUILAR. In your testimony you estimated that modernization costs, spread 

over 20 years, would be an estimated $350B–$450B. However, during the hearing 

you mentioned that this estimate did not include the warheads, sustainment costs, 

or command and control among others. 
119 

A) Do you have a 25-year estimated costs plan that not only includes modernization, but also warheads, sustainment, and command and control? If so, when will 

it be delivered to the members of this committee? If not, why not and when is the 

Department planning on producing such a document? 

B) If this estimate were extended to 30 years, would the Department then agree 

that nuclear modernization could cost an estimated 1 trillion dollars as some commentators have predicted? 

Mr. SCHER. The joint Department of Defense (DOD) and National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) nuclear weapons sustainment and modernization strategy is presented in the Nuclear Weapons Council Baseline Strategic Plan. The plan, 

which provides the basis for nuclear weapons budget planning, is a 25-year view 

summarizing the timelines for production and deployment of nuclear warheads, 

DOD delivery systems, and associated NNSA production infrastructure such as pit 

and tritium production. DOD generally does not develop 25-year program cost estimates. The DOD estimates that the total cost of recapitalizing U.S. nuclear forces 

will be $350 billion–$450 billion over the next 20 years. This excludes sustainment 

and operation of the existing force, which currently costs about $12B per year. The 

recapitalization estimate includes modernization of nuclear command, control, and 

communications, as well as modernization of DOD delivery systems in all three legs 

of the U.S. strategic nuclear triad. It includes the full cost of the B–21 bomber, even 

though this aircraft is also being developed to meet conventional warfighting requirements. DOD’s recapitalization estimate also includes annual DOD funds reprogrammed to NNSA to support warhead modernization activities, including Life Extension Programs described in NNSA’s Stockpile Stewardship Management Plan. 

DOD will continue to refine its cost estimate as a number of modernization programs mature in the coming years. DOD’s 20-year estimate for total nuclear modernization costs covers the bulk of the so-called bow wave of nuclear recapitalization 

funding. As a result, extending it from 20 to 30 years would not result in a significant proportional increase. The total costs for nuclear modernization over 30 years 

will be far lower than $1 trillion. 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY DR. WENSTRUP 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Administrator Klotz, in your Tritium Report from last October, 

NNSA estimated costs for build-out of a national security enrichment capacity using 

the American Centrifuge technology—the only existing technology that is ready for 

use for national security purposes and which the report found to be ‘‘the most technically advanced and lowest risk option for future production of unobligated enriched uranium.’’ In generating these cost estimates, did NNSA also consider publicprivate partnerships, lease-to-own, or any other cost-sharing mechanism that would 

lessen the burden on the taxpayer? If not, why not? 

General KLOTZ. As required by the Consolidated and Further Continuing Appropriations Act of 2015, the Department provided an analysis of the available uranium 

enrichment technology options and a preliminary cost and schedule estimate to 

build a national security train. The preliminary cost estimate used existing data for 

the most mature technology available at that time, the American centrifuge technology, and at the time, data was not available to analyze and develop an acquisition strategy. The Department is still conducting market research for its domestic 

uranium enrichment needs, and will issue a Request For Information (RFI) as soon 

as practicable to help determine industry interest and contracting mechanisms that 

would be in the Government’s best interest. 

Dr. WENSTRUP. Administrator Klotz, in December 2015 and January of this year, 

NNSA publicly stated that the kick-off of the acquisition process to obtain a domestic enrichment capacity was ‘‘imminent,’’ and that a Request For Information (RFI) 

related to a future program would be released within weeks, if not days. Six months 

later, no such RFI has been released. What is the timeline for issuing the RFI and 

how long do you expect the RFI period to run? 

General KLOTZ. The Department is still conducting market research for its domestic uranium enrichment needs, and will issue a Request For Information as soon as 

practicable. 

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