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COMMITTEE ON

INT ERIOR AND INSU LAR AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

NINET Y-SECONI) COXG I! ESS

FIR ST SES SIO N

ON

T1IE NOMINATION OF JOHN W. LARSON TO BE ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY FOR PROGRAMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

JULY’ 23. 1971

Pri nte d fo r the use of the 

Committee on Interior and I nsular Affairs

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COM M IT TE E ON IN T E R IO R AN D IN SU LAR A FFA IR S 

HE NR Y M. JA CK SO N, W as hi ng to n, Ch airm an

CL IN TO N P. AN DE RS ON , New Mexico GORD ON A LL OT T, Colorad o 

LE N B. JO RD AN , Id ah o 

PA UL J. FA NN IN , Ar izon a 

CLIF FO RD P. HA NS EN , W yo ming 

MA RK O. H A TFIE LD , Oregon 

TED ST EV EN S. Alask a 

HEN RY BE LL MO N, Ok laho ma

Verkler, Sta ff Director

Van Ness, Chief Counsel

Cook, Minority Counsel

AL AN B IB L E, Nev ad a

FR ANK C HU RC H, Id ah o

FRANK E. MOSS, U ta h

QU EN TIN N. BU RD IC K, N or th D ak ot a

GEO RG E MCGOV ERN, So ut h D ak ot a

L E E MET CA LF , M on ta na

M IK E GR AV EL , Alask a

Jerry T. 

William J.

Charles

( I I )
NOMINATION OF JOHN W. LARSON TO BE ASSISTANT

SECRETARY FOR PROGRAMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE

INTERIOR

FRID A Y , JU L Y 23 , 19 71

United States S enate,

Committee on I nterior and

I nsular Affairs, 

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., in room 3110, New Senate Office Building, Senator Alan Bible presiding.

Pres ent; Senators Clinton P. Anderson (New Mexico), Alan Bible 

(Nevada), Len B. Jordan (Idaho ), and Paul J. Fannin (Arizona).

Also pre sen t: Jerry T. Verkler, staff director; William J. Van Ness, 

chief counsel, and Thomas A. Nelson, assistant minority counsel.

Senator Bible. The hearing will come to order.

Senator Jackson asked me if I would pinch hit for him this morning. He has another conflict and is unable to be here. I am very happy 

to do so.

This is an open, public hearing by the Senate Committee on Interior 

and Insular Affairs to take testimony on the nomination by President 

Nixon of Joh n W. Larson to be Assistant Secretary of Interior for 

Programs.

Mr. Larson is nominated for the new post created by the Secretary 

of the Interior. I am informed that his duties will include a review 

and analysis of current and proposed projects in the Department and 

the coordination of the Department’s interagency and interdisciplinary Programs. Mr. Larson is a partner in the second largest law 

firm in San Francisco and has had broad experience with legal, business, and financial planning.

For the record, Mr. Larson's biography will be included in the 

hearing record a t this point.

J assume tha t each of the members here have a copy of the 

biography of Mr. Larson.

(The document referred to follows:)

Biog raphy of J oh n W. Larson

Jo hn W. Lar so n, 36, Sa n Fr an ci sc o, has been nom in at ed by th e P re si dent fo r 

th e po sition of A ss is ta nt Sec re ta ry of th e In te ri o r fo r P ro gra m s. H is duties will 

in cl ud e a re vi ew an d analy si s of cu rr en t and pr op os ed p ro je cts of th e D ep ar tm en t an d th e co or di na tion of th e D ep art m ent's in te ra gen cy and in te rd is ci plinar y pr og ra m s.

Mr. Lar so n is curr entl y a p a rt n e r in th e la w firm of Bro be ck , Phle ge r & 

H ar ri so n, th e seco nd la rg es t la w fir m in Sa n Fra nci sc o. H e is ’e ng ag ed in 

co rp or at e law. In th e co ur se of hi s pr ac tice , he h as had bro ad ex per ie nce with 

leg al, bu sine ss an d fina nc ial plan ni ng . Mr. Lar so n is cu rr en tl y a m em ber of the 

B oa rd of D irec to rs of se ve ra l co mpa nies which a re cli ents of th e firm He is a

(1)
2

member of the American Bar Association, the California Bar Association and 

the faculty of the Practicing Law Institute.

Mr. Larson was born in Detroit, Michigan and was raised in Phoenix, Arizona. 

He received a B. A. degree with distinction in econoincs from Stanford University and an LLB from Stanford Law School. While in law school, Mr. Larson 

served as an officer of the Stanford Law Review and upon graduation was 

elected to the Order of the Coif, a scholastic, legal honorary society. Since 

graduation from law school, he has practiced with his firm in San Francisco 

and currently resides in Ross, California.

lie is married to the former Pamela Wren. They have one daughter, Jennifer, 

age 7.

Senator Bible. I don’t know whether we have any members of the 

committee who wish to make statements, but, if so, I will be very 

hap py to hear from them at this time.

Senator Anderson?

Senator Anderson. J ust as a matter of curiosity, does Mr. Larson 

have any kinfolks here in Washington ?

Mr. 1 jarson. No, Senator, my wife could not be here.

Senator Anderson. Have you any relatives here ?

Mr. L arson. No ; I do not.

Senator Anderson. There are a lot of Larsons around. No, he is from 

the west. I think he told me he was born in Arizona and took his 

schooling at Stanford, and so forth. I think he is from Arizona.

Senator Fannin. That is correct.

Senator Bible. Are there any further statements ?

Senator Jordan.

Senator J ordan. I haven't anything, Mr. Chairman. Let’s hear the 

witness and then I might have a question or so.

Senator Bible. We will question him. I thought you might have a 

statement.

Senator J ordan. No; T am delighted to have him here. li e has come 

by my office for a fine visit.

Senator Bible. Senator Fannin.

Senator Fannin. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee: 

I t has been my pleasure to know Mr. Larson for over 25 years. One 

of my sons was very closely associated with him. ITe has been in my 

home many, many times in his youth. Of course, knowing him 

over the years, I have always had great admiration for him. He has 

been an enthusiastic man all the way through his career.

li e graduated from Stan ford University with distinction and 

honors in economics. A fter 2 years with the Army Security Agency, 

he returned to Stanford, to law school.

My son happened to have been with him at Stanford but didn’t 

return to law school. He was editor of the Stanford Law Review and 

upon graduation was elected to an honor law society. Upon graduation from law school, Mr. Larson joined Brobeck, Phleger & Harrison, 

the law firm with which he is currently a partner.

He has been a very successful attorney, and is admired and 

respected in his profession. I certainly highly commend him, Mr. 

Chairman and members of the committee, and am pleased to have 

the opportunity to speak for him.

Sen ator Bible. Thank you, Senator Fannin.

We will next hear from the Under Secretary, the illustrious Dr. 

Pecora.
3

STATEMENT OF DR. WILLIAM T. PECORA, UNDER SECRETARY, 

DEPARTMENT OF INT ERIOR

Dr. Pecora. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee: It is 

always delightful to appear before you.

It is highly gratify ing to me to be the Interior Department spokesman in support of President Nixon’s nomination of Joh n W. Larson 

to the new post of Assistant Secretary for Programs.

As you know, I have been with Interior for a long time.

Senator Bible. How long?

Dr. P ecora. Thirty-two years.

Senator Bible. I have seen you around for a long time. I didn’t 

know it was that long.

Dr. Pecora. During the years, sir, I have witnessed its metamorphosis from a Department that merely managed public lands and 

resources to one that is very central to many features of modern 

American society.

In Interior, we have responded to the increasing demands of these 

times by expanding recreation resources for Americans, guarding 

more vigilantly than ever the environmental inte grity of the land and 

water, and contributing our scientific and technical know-how to the 

furtherance of a sound American economy.

We are today involved directly in human affairs, particula rly with 

relation to Indian Americans and to the people of the Island Territories under our administration.

These growing and complex activities require grea ter attention and 

effort of the Secretary in daily negotiations with the Office of Management and Budget, as well as in carrying out the in tent of the Congress effectively.

We believe the post of Assistant Secretary for Programs, as a

companion post to the Assistant Secretary for Management and 

Budget, will improve the Secretary's coordinating and overview 

responsibility and strengthen his accountability role to the President 

and to the Congress.

Inte rior is fortunate in having many talented men and women 

among its staff. It is also fortunate in being able to attra ct new individuals to help foster its objectives.

John W. Larson is one of the new talen ts we hope to have with us. 

He is young enough to be flexible, foresighted, imaginative and full of 

energy. A t age 36, he is also old enough to have acquired a solid background of experience of the kind we need.

Larson has been a member of the prestigious law firm of Brobeck, 

Phleger & Harrison of San Francisco since his graduation from 

Stanford University Law School in 1962.

He was a distinguished law student, a member of the Stanfo rd Law 

Review Board and a member of the Honor Law Society. He also holds 

a bachelor of arts degree in economics from Stanford, graduating 

with distinction.

Larson’s law experience has been largely in the field of business and 

finance, giving him a solid understanding of the importance of economic development to the national welfare.

He is aware of the responsibility of business and indu stry, as well 

as of government, in the matter of environmental protection. He
4

knows the need to preserve some natu ral resources while developing 

others.

All of these attributes are necessary to the position we have in mind 

for John Larson. It is a new position with the title of Assistant Secretary for Programs. The job calls for a person with ability to assess 

Inter ior’s activities with a view to their future impact—and the 

ability to draw together the sometimes fragmented efforts among 

Interio r’s many capable bureaus.

In conclusion I should add—I have come to know John Larson in 

recent weeks and I find that his personal qualities equal his professional ones. He gets work done without fanfare but with thoroughness. He inspires confidence and ease among colleagues, and these 

intangibles are sometimes the most important in getting a good job 

done.

The President and Secretary Alorton are confident John Larson is 

the. man for the job of Assistant Secretary for Programs. I hope you 

will share this confidence with us.

Thank you, sir.

Senator Bible. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Mr. Larson, would you like to come forward and be seated there?

Because of Dr. Pecora’s long years of service with Interior, and he 

certainly is quite familiar with that Agency and th at Department, the 

main thin g I am interested in, and I wouldn’t expect Mr. Larson to 

be able to answer this question a t the present time is this: What does 

he do ? What are the duties involved in this new post ?

Dr. Pecora. I should say very straightforwardly t hat this post will 

serve as a catalyst b ringing the mission area Assistant Secretaries into 

better focus with the Secretary and with other agencies of Government. Basically, he will assist them in developing their programs with 

the kind of expertise th at his office will offer. He will work with them 

in developing new programs.

He will serve with his companion Assistant Secretary Bodman, and 

myself, in an overview look on programs and budgets of the Department so that we may advise the Secretary on any aspects of the program th at he may wish to go forward with.

He will seek out information as required by the Secretary in these 

various program areas so that the Secretary himself may have a good 

analysis of the integration among the various missions rather than 

a single, one track view th at a specific assistant secretary may bring 

to him.

In other words, the time is ripe for us to bring someone of this 

capability into the Department to assist the Secretary in the very 

complex management and policy direction of a large Department.

Senator Bible. ITow many employees in total, in Washington and 

in the field, does the Department of Inte rior have aboard today, 

ronghlv?

Dr. Pecora. Approximately 70,000.

Senator Bible. 70,000 people?

Dr. Pecora. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. You are th e Under Secretary. Secretary Morton, of 

course, is the Secretary of Interior. How many Assistant Secretaries 

do you have?

Dr. Pecora. Basically, in the line areas, there are the Assistant Secretary for Mineral Resources-----
5

Senator Bible. And who is that?

Dr. P ecora. Mr. Dole.

Senator Bible. That is Hollis Dole.

Dr. Pecora. The Assistant Secretary for Water Power Development, Mr. Smith; the Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife and 

Park s, Mr. Peed.

Senator Bible. He is the new confirmation.

Dr. Pecora. Yes, sir; a few weeks ago this committee confirmed 

him. And finally the Assistant Secretary for Public Lands Management, Mr. Loesch.

Senator Bible. When you say line Assistant Secretaries of Inte rior, 

what does that mean ? The line comes down from Secretary Morton 

to Secretary Pecora and then a straight line down to these four 

secretaries?

Dr. Pecora. Exactly.

Senator Bible. That is what you mean by line?

Dr. Pecora. That is the direct contact between these program 

assistant secretaries and the secretary himself.

Senator Bible. You may continue.

Dr. P ecora. In addition to the four line Assistant Secretaries, there 

are the two staff assistant secretaries. The one we are discussing today, the Assistant Secretary for Programs-----

Senator Bible. That is new.

Dr. Pecora. That is new—and the other is the old one, the Assistant Secretary for Administration, now called the Assistant Secretary 

for Management and Budget.

Senator Bible. That is Secretary Bodman ?

Dr. P ecora. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. He has been newly confirmed.

Dr. P ecora. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. He has not been aboard too long?

Dr. P ecora. He has been aboard just a few weeks.

Senator Bible. What line do they follow ? They are not line Secretaries? They are special assistants to the Secretary of Interior?

Dr. Pecora. In effect, they don’t have any program mission responsibility in carrying out a program of the Departm ent in its substantive area. They are, in a sense, an arm of the Secretary analyzing and 

working with, in a service relationship to the line Assistant 

Secretaries.

Senator Bible. They are answerable only to you and to Secretary 

Morton, is that correct?

Dr. P ecora. That is correct.

Senator Bible. They are not responsible to Loesch, Smith, Reid or 

Dole?

Dr. P ecora. That is right, sir. They are answerable to the Secretary, 

as the others are, also.

Senator Bible. 1 understand they are all answerable.

If we have a problem in the B ureau of Indian Affairs, how do I get 

to that problem? Do I contact the Assistant Secretary or do I contact 

this new program man?

Dr. Pecora. The inquiry should go directly to the Assistant Secretary in that mission, Mr. Loesch.

Senator Bible. If I don’t like what he is doing with the Indians, 

then what do I do ? Who do I complain to ?
6

Dr. P ecora. Then the committee does what i t usually does, it comes 

directly upstairs to the Secretary.

Senator Bible. Where does he fit it into the program ?

Dr. Pecora, The Secretary, in reviewing the inquiry or comment 

may either discuss it directly with Mr. Loesch or may assign the question before him to the U nder Secretary, or to one of his staff Assistant 

Secretaries if the question is related to a service support area.

Senator Bible. This new Assistant Secretary in charge of Pro ­

grams, it is dressed up in pretty language but I am not quite sure th at 

I know what it means.

Does he come up with programs for the BIA? Is tha t one of his 

missions?

Dr. P ecora. One of his missions with reference to the BIA in p articular, since the chairman has mentioned tha t point, is to review with 

Mr. Loesch and the Bureau chiefs the program development which 

Mr. Loesch may feel is important and should be included in a departmental effort, and in working in tandem with the line Assistant Secreta ry will reinforce the program justification, may investigate and 

bring other information to bear on decisionmaking, may make economic analyses with his staff which Mr. Loesch is unable to do because 

he has no economic analysis staff.

In other words, serve as a p artn er with the mission Assistant Secreta ry in making the best analysis and presentation of a program so 

that the Secretary may view it with all of its implications and develop 

his policy as to what to do within the Department, with the Office of 

Management and Budget, with the Congress, with the States, with 

the entire country.

Senator Bible. Does he take a look at the bills that the various 

Senators will be introducing in the future to see how they fit into the 

programs of the Department of Interior? Does he review bills?

Dr. Pecora. Inevitably he will look at the impact of these bills on 

departmental programs. But basically, he is not in the legislative area, 

per se, We do have a legislative counsel that assembles all of the workings that go into a bill and review of bills.

But the review of these substantive reports and analyses will come 

to Mr. Larson if he should be the Assistant Secretary, as well as to 

other members of the D epartment fo r a coordinated analysis of these.

He is adding another dimension to the Secretary’s capability.

Senator Bible. He is adding another dimension to the Secretary’s 

capability. He is adding another job, if tha t is what you mean by 

dimension. I don’t quite get that word dimension.

Why don’t you spell tha t out a little. This is a new secretaryship. I 

am just curious about it.

Dr. P ecora. Within the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Programs there are a number of suboffices tha t will participate in this 

general program analysis. One of them is the Office of Economic 

Analysis. Here the group who are trained economists in the resources 

area are offering their expertise in considering programs and program 

variations.

In addition, the regional impact of a program must be analyzed. 

Here the Office of Assistant Secretary for Programs, throu gh his 

regional field associates who are reporting to the Secretary, will assist 

in evaluating the impact of those programs on the region and, in
I

reverse, turning in information to the Secretary which must be evaluated in the context of the departmental program.

Thirdly, the Office of International Activities. The Secretary must 

be involved in programs tha t have not only national significance but 

have international significance, the exchange of scientific and technical information, the visits from foreign offices to determine what we 

are doing in this country tha t is good and can be useful in their 

countries.

Here the small Office of Internatio nal Activities will be the Office 

to review those programs and associations fo r the Secretary through 

the Assistant Secretary.

In regional planning, in general, in the sense of bills before the 

(’ongress, and earlier bills, on environmental impact, on the relationship of development to the public lands and environmental assessment, this Department of the Inte rior has never had a central office 

that, reviews the potential impact on certain projects. There are 

pro jects which are developed within the Department.

There are those that are developed in other agencies that come to 

the Department for analysis. The Assistant Secretary for Programs 

will fan out these projects descriptions, asking the expertise of the 

separate bureaus within the Department, throu gh the line Assistant 

Secretaries, to address themselves to these questions, to return their 

technical assessments to be gathered together by the Assistant Secretary for Programs and his staff leading to a final assessment report 

on environmental impact related to development.

The Secretary of Interior then, reviewing this analysis, can reach 

his own judgments tha t heretofore have been rather difficult to do 

because of the varied assessments and integrated relationships that 

have existed before.

Senator Bible. Doctor, you left me along about the middle of that 

presentation. You don’t talk now as an Under Secretary as you did 

when you were with USGS. From what you said, I thought he was 

doing the same th ing that you were supposed to be doing.

Dr. P ecora. No, sir.

Se na tor Bible. W hat will he be doing that you do n't do?

I)r. P ecora. The Un der Se cre tar y is an alte r ego fo r the Se cre tar y.

In his absence, the Secretary must have an overview and a decisionmaking role on many matters that come up to him throu gh many, 

many avenues. The secretariat, as 1 use it, composed of the Secretary 

and Under Secretary, need the services and work of the two staff 

Assistant Secretaries that I mentioned, and need to respond on a daily 

basis to the work of the line Assistant Secretaries.

So, in effect, Secretary Larson would not be reporting to me. He is 

reporting to Secretary Morton, and T am acting with or for Secretary 

Morton on these activities.

Senator Bible. We hear a lot of discussion, and I don't know which 

is right and which is wrong, to get to another illustration and to try to 

probe the responsibilities of this newly created secretaryship, we hear 

a lot of pros and cons, about whether the Indians should be under 

trusteeship or whether they should be emancipated.

We emancipated some of the tribes and now they say they want to 

come back and have the United States be their trustee. This has been 

going along for a good many years. It hasn’t been resolved 

<56 309—71----2
8

If you want to know what the program is in the Department of 

Interior on just that one question, do you go to this new Secretary 

and sa y: “What is the Secretary’s program as to whether you should 

emancipate Indians or whether you should continue to keep them 

under trusteeships?”

I am just using that as an illustration.

Dr. Pecora. That is a problem for the Secretary himself to discuss 

with the Congress because this is a major policy problem of the administration and the Department, itself. However, if the committee 

would wish to inquire into some aspects of the entire Indian program, 

then Secretary Loesch would have the knowledge to respond to the 

committee.

But if Secretary Loesch may wish to introduce a new economic 

prog ram for the Indians in one State or another, or for one tribal 

grou p or another, he would seek the service of the Assistant Secretary 

for Programs in the economic analyses that are part of the program 

development. lie is unable to do this with his staff because his staff is 

mission oriented, management for the program, itself.

Therefore, he needs the expertise of those who know something 

about economics. That has been their life. Mr. Larson himself, having 

had good training in economics as well as law, and having a staff 

under him of economists and people who know programs, can assist 

Secretary Loesch in formulating tha t program which will be presented to the Secretary for final decision.

Senator Bible. l ie has a lot of experience in business and economics. 

There was a very fine program that was brought forward by an 

India n chief in New Mexico or Arizona. They had a business development corporation working and I thought it had a lot of possibilities.

There was even money appropriated and then somebody raised the 

question, “You can't do that because you don’t have the authorizing 

legislation, you don't have a program for it.’’

Would that be in this new Secretary's shop to say, “This is a business development program for the Indians” ? Would tha t be this program man’s responsibility?

Dr. Pecora. The program would still go to Secretary Loesch because it deals with Indian affairs, but Secretary Loesch will need some 

advice and help in formulating the program, validating it, reviewing 

it for success, failures or modifications.

In this area he would go to the Assistant Secretary for Programs 

for that assistance. They are collaborators. But largely, in this case, 

as the chairman has mentioned, it would be at the action of Secretar y Loesch to seek this assistance. Secretary Larson will be available 

to all of the line Secretaries to offer this added capability which they 

do not have.

Senator Bible. This isn't a public relations job?

I)r. P ecora. Not at all, sir. As a matter of fact, the present staff 

available in this area has been drawn entirely from within Interior. 

Mr. Larson is the first new addition to this whole area of programs. 

The people we will be working with should he come aboard, are people who are departmentally oriented, who have been drawn from d ifferent Bureaus and line areas to bring the program knowledge into 

the Office so that the extra capability can have maximum effect.

Senator Bible. Where would he have his office?
I)r. P ecora. In the Department of Interio r.

Senator Bible. I mean where ?

Dr. Pecora. On the fourth floor on the southwest corner of the 

Department of In terio r, very accessible.

Senator Bible. Have you space available?

Dr. Pecora. We have space available. lie will be accessible not only 

to the Secretary but also to me because of the 9hort distances from 

our offices.

Senator Bible. You are in the course of preparing your 1973 budget. 

Might we anticipate an item in there for secretaries and clerical 

assistants, economists, an engineer in support of the Secretary's 

program ?

Dr. Pecora. Quite frankly, the present staff is being accommodated 

with people we have already, with the positions we have already. I 

think it would be fair for me to say tha t in the 1973 budget we will 

have analyzed our potential capability in this area and could rightly 

come before the Congress with a supplemental or a 1973 request for 

review of additional positions; yes, sir.

Senator Bible. Senator Anderson.

Senator Anderson. Do you have any preconceived ideas about the 

water supply laws?

Senator Bible. I didn't know whether anybody had any more questions of Dr. Pecora. 1 think that question, Senator Anderson, would 

be more properly addressed to Mr. Larson.

Have you any further questions?

Senator Anderson. No.

Senator Bible. Are there any further questions of Dr. Pecora?

Senator J ordan. Dr. Pecora, it is always good to have you before 

this committee. You ordinarily give straigh t answers to the questions 

we have for you, and I think you are doing so today.

But I am still somewhat confused as to the organization in the 

Department of Interior. The Department, as you testified, comprises 

some 70,000 employees with four line Assistant Secretaries, and now 

two special Assistant Secretaries are to be superimposed upon the 

present structure.

Is there a job description for this particu lar Assistant Secretary 

for Programs ? Do you have an official job description ?

Dr. Pecora. No; we do not, because Presidential appointees, to mv 

knowledge, don't have job descriptions, per se. They have responsibilities as spelled out for them.

W e would be very happy to give this committee fo r your records a 

very brief summary of the position and duties that we would look to 

in execution of this program.

Senator J ordan. I wish you would, because it is a new position. This 

question comes to mind: who has been doing what this new Assistant 

Secretary is now hired to do ?

Dr. Pecora. That has been our problem, Senator, because this has 

not fallen into any singular shop before, and we have seen the need. 

Pa rt of Secretary Morton's analysis of the entire picture was to get 

this kind of capability close at hand, not only because of his present 

need but also that if a Department of Natural Resources should succeed, it is a natu ral function of these two Offices, one of administration, now called Management and Budget, and the other of Program
10

Analysis and Coordination, to be close to the Secretary of the new 

Department of Natural Resources and would be separate from but not 

in competition with the line Assistant Secretaries.

Senator J ordan. I think you replied in answer to one of the ch airman’s questions that most of the employees under this new Assistant 

Secretary will be transferred from elsewhere in the Department of 

Inte rior . Did I understand that?

Dr. P ecora. They are internal employees; yes, sir.

Senator J ordan. They are in-house?

Dr. Pecora. In-house—there is one exception, in order to keep the 

record complete on that. Dr. Vogely, who is presently Chief of the 

Office of Economic Analysis in this program area, had been a longtime Interior employee, and for 1 or 2 years had been detailed to the 

Department of Treasury for some special work there and is now back 

with Interior.

That is the only new face in that context, other than Mr. L arson’s 

face.

Senator J ordan. How many people are involved under this new 

assistant secretaryship?

Dr. Pecora. At the present time I would calculate tha t including 

clerks, girls, the total complement would probably be in the area of 

3d or maybe 35. 1 could make this available to you.

Senator J ordan. Thirty to 35 ?

Dr. Pi 3CORA. Yes.

Senator J ordan. II ow fast do you anticipate this assistant secretaryship will grow in personnel and money ?

Dr. Pecora. I don’t have any personal view th at it is going to grow 

into a massive organization, and I don't know how much larger it 

will grow. But I will assure this comittee of this, that before they add 

any body I will make sure that it is necessary.

Senator J ordan. We are glad to have that word of restraint from 

you because we have seen assistant secretaryships established and 

mushroom and double every year for awhile.

Dr. Pecora. This is why Secretary Morton wanted me where I was 

because he knew I would put a stop to that before it started.

Senator J ordan. We don’t want any more fiefdoms.

Dr. Pecora. We want brain power and help. That is what we need.

Senator Jordan. I will go with you on that.

Will he have people out in the field or will all of his personnel be 

here in Washington?

I)r. Pecora. For actual operation, the personnel will be in Washington. But the Secretary, you know, has regional field coordinators, 

and part of the President’s program was to have a coordinator or 

field representative of each Department, where possible, in all ten 

regions. We have about a half-dozen field representatives at the present time who report to the Secretary. In effect, these field representatives are part of a regional program analysis and reporting system so 

they would be reporting to the Secretary through the Assistant Secretary of Programs in order to keep our whole communication system 

in a controllable state.

Senator Bible. Senator Fannin.

Senator F annin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, I know in the last few months the new Secretary 

and you, I am sure, have been discussing this very problem, the feas-
11

ibility of projects, the feasibility of programs. I can just refer to some 

in tlie State of Arizona where the economic considerations were not 

taken into consideration. One is on the Colorado River Reservation 

where an agricultu ral project was started. It was not well thought 

through.

Would Mr. Larson’s work have covered tha t line of activity, determining whether a project as planned is feasible ?

Dr. P ecora. His would not be the decision, Senator.

Senator Fannin. I understand.

Dr. Pecora. But he would participa te in developing th at project to 

its fidlest justification and need; yes, sir.

Senator F annin. He would utilize his experience in that field ?

Dr. P ecora. Exactly.

Senator F annin. lie would make a determ ination on recommendations ?

Dr. P ecora. Yes, sir.

Senator F annin. I think that is very im portant because I have seen 

quite a number of them tha t have gone by the wayside because they 

were not properly planned and the economics were not taken into consideration. This would be true in quite a number of your departments, 

would it not?

Dr. Pecora. Exactly—I thin k the Senator has introduced a very 

important point. As an example, this Department of Interior for 

years, has been in my view, akin to a big dinosaur with amassive tail 

and the tail has been guiding the Department.

What Secretary Alorton really wants is more brain to guide the 

Department. This is why we are gettin g these new people to help us.

Senator Fannin. That was the understand ing I had from Secretary Alorton, that he wants every consideration developed rather than 

just to make a decision on some recommendations tha t have not been 

thoroughly analyzed.

Dr. P ecora. Exactly.

Senator F annin. So Air. Larson’s work would be designed for that 

purpose, I understand.

Dr. P ecora. Yes, sir.

Senator F annin. So it could prove to be a tremendous saving to 

the Department if it works out as planned ?

Dr. Pecora. It will undoubtedly save money and a lot of time and 

energy in reaching decisions.

Senator Fannin. Thank you.

Senator Bible. I am very happy , Doctor, tha t you added tha t last 

little observation to Senator Fannin, when you said it would save 

money. When you come before the Appropriations Committee, of 

■which I have the high honor of being chairman, next year, indicate 

exactly how much money you will save. I remember such a statement 

and I will remember your face. I will query you on this. We will test 

your action there.

Dr. P ecora. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. Now, Air. Larson, we are delighted to welcome you 

here. I have been in many of these confirmation hearings under both 

administrations. I would be h appy to hear whatever you have to say 

at this time.
12

STATEMENT OF JOHN W. LARSON, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT

SECRETARY FOR PROGRAMS, DEPARTMENT OF T HE INTE RIOR

Mr. L arson. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee:

It is a great honor and privilege to appear before this distinguished 

committee in regard to my nomination by the President as Assistant 

Secretary of the Interior.

The position for which I have been nominated, Assistant Secretary 

for Programs, is new within the Department. Thus, at the outset I 

expect to spend a substantial portion of my time learning both about 

the activities of the Department and the duties which I am to 

perform.

It is my understanding th at the Assistant Secretary for Programs 

will assist the Secretary in evaluating new, major programs of the 

Departm ent and in coordinating programs that cut across various 

mission areas of the Department and tha t require contact between the 

Dep artm ent and other agencies of Government.

I have submitted a biography to the committee, bu t at this time, 

perhaps a brief review of my background would be appropriate.

I was born in Detroit, Mich., and raised in Phoenix, Anz. I graduated from Stanford University in 1957 with distinction and honors 

in economics.

Af ter 2 years in the service, I returned to Stanford for law school 

and received my law degree in 1962. Upon graduation from law 

school, I joined Brobeck, Phleger & Harrison, the law firm of which I 

am now a partner.

Because of my interests in economics and law, my practice has 

been largely in the area of corporate law with special attention to 

business and financial planning.

I have devoted most of my career as an attorney to the organization 

of rapidly growing businesses, principally in the electronics field.

In connection with this work, I have participated in the top management in a number of these concerns. It is my hope tha t this experience, together with my personal conviction t hat our future depends 

upon maintaining a proper balance between the utilization and conservation of our natural resources, will be helpful in my work in the 

Department.

My brief exposure to the Department has given me some understanding of the Federal programs confronting the Department and 

the Members of Congress.

I realize that there is no quick or easy road to success. Good performance is achieved through a sound organization and diligent 

effort. Except for these beliefs, I embark upon my new position with 

no preconceived notions or ideas regarding the problems facing the 

Dep artm en t.

I look forward to working under the leadership of Secretary Morton and Dr. Pecora. The ir dedication to excellence in Government and 

to the welfare of the United States is a source of great inspiration to 

me, and, I am sure, to the entire Department.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to submit this statement. 

I am prepared to answer any questions you may have.

Senator Bible. I am very happy to have you here this morning. I 

did have the privilege of meeting with you yesterday and we talked
13

for gome little time. I know th at you are a young man—how old are 

you, 36 years old ?

Mr. Larson. Yes, Senator.

Senator Bible. You have been highly successful, obviously, in your 

few short years in the practice of the law, and you have a wonderful 

legal background, and I think an equally fine background in business 

and economics, all of which stands you in good stead.

I asked you yesterday what you were supposed to do, and you gave 

me some ideas. You were very frank in saying th at you would be 

better able to answer that question after you had been aboard a little 

while, which certainly seems to be a fair attitude.

I do encourage young men to go into Government. I think everyone 

should have public service. I commend you on it.

I am not going to ask you any detailed questions as to what you 

plan on doing, because I don’t know tha t you have your responsibilities well outlined enough in your own mind. Othe r than what you 

have said righ t here in your written statement.

We, of course, will take a look at your financial statement. You 

talked to me a little about that yesterday. I thin k you said you were 

returning to the coast this weekend, is tha t true?

Mr. I jarson. Yes, Senator.

Senator Bible. When will you be coming back here ?

Mr. Larson. I expect to be here full time around th e 10th of August.

Senator Bible. The reason I asked the question is that I am advised that, we do not have a quorum of our committee here today and 

we would want to go into a couple of these trust agreements that you 

have, just for questioning. But we can't very well do i t with only four 

of our Senators here.

I don't think others are obtainable today. Fri day is normally a 

risky day for full attendance. I don't think we can go into that today. 

It may be after we have discussed this at an executive committee meeting on Monday if there are questions, we can clear them up by contacting you following th at meeting.

T don’t think I want to query you about your ideas on this or that. 

You will be in charge of programs and you will have able guidance 

from both Secretary Morton and Secretary Pecora.

With that, I will ask Senator Anderson if he has any questions. He 

wanted to ask one question about your theory on water law.

Senator Anderson. Have you any feeling about the Glen Canyon 

Dam ?

Mr. Larson. I know where Glen Canyon Dam is located and I 

have been to that area when I was growing up in Arizona. But I really 

know nothing fu rth er about it, Senator.

Senator Anderson. Will we see his financial statement?

Senator Bible. Tha t is right, we will go into that. I have had the 

opportunity of looking at it and I will show it to the other members 

of the committee. But I think since we only have four here i t would 

be better to go into that Monday morning.

Senator Anderson. The Navajos have been talk ing lately about 

education. They have a Navajo college out there. Have you had 

occasion to contact that at all ? That college is in Arizona.

Mr. Larson. No; I am sorry, I have not, Senator.

Senator Anderson. I have no further questions.

Senator Bible. Senator Jord an.
14

Senator J ordan. Thank you.

I only have one question. I had a very tine visit with Mr. Larson so 

I shan’t pursue many questions.

I do have one. I always have a curiosity why a promising, brilliant 

young man wants to leave the relative calm and security of the private 

sector for the uncertainties, vicissitudes and abrasions of public 

service.

Why do you want to come to work for the Government?

Mr. Larson. For several reasons: When one is asked to do something of this sort, it seems to me tha t if there is any way possible he 

really has to respond affirmatively. Otherwise, I think we would have 

a very hard time in our own minds criticizing Government or feeling 

that we participated fairly in the work of the country.

I think this is important work tha t is being done in Interior, perhaps more today than in the past because of the considerations to 

environmental factors.

I think people should participate in this work and should be willing 

to take the time away from their other activities to do this. I feel very 

strongly tha t young people who have not reached the top of their 

career ought to do this because I think, hopefully, they will bring in a 

different dimension.

I feel sufficiently strong that I am very enthusiastic about doing it 

and I wan t to do it.

Senator J ordan. T hat is a good answer. I appreciate having it from 

you. Thank you.

Senator Bible. Senator Fannin.

Senator Fannin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I w ant to say to Senator Jordan I asked Mr. Larson practically the 

same question, having known him practically all his life, as to why 

he w anted to come to Washington. He very promptly responded as he 

did to you, that his work in his law firm and other activities in business has given him an expertise. He put it on the basis not of ego but 

just from the standpoint that he does feel tha t he would be able to 

serve in this environment.

I respect him for that. I just wish we had more young men who 

were willing to make tha t sacrifice.

I have no questions.

Senator Bible. I think tha t last was the best he has given.

When one is subjected to public service, he thinks a little more 

kindly of those who are in public service.

You will be subjected to some tryin g times as you go along. I can’t 

think of any more challenging area than that of being in the embattled old Department of the Interior. It has been embattled for I 

don’t know how many years. I don’t know whether you will straighten 

it all out but I wish you well.

I have no further questions.

This statement will be available and we will know how to reach 

you if there are questions that occur. I don’t think we have anv questions, or at least I don't, on your direct holdings. I thin k maybe the 

trusts might pose some problem or they might not. In any event, we 

will discuss tha t in executive session on Monday morning. If there 

are questions, we will be in communication with you.
15

Mr. Larson. Senator, I wonder if I might ask if I could just spend 

a couple of minutes with you at this time because I am going to be 

gone. I would like to explain briefly the considerations-----

Senator Bible. We will stand in recess and go into the executive 

committee room with you and the fou r members of the committee, and 

Mr. Verkler. Other staff members will be excluded.

(Whereupon, at 10:55 a.m. the public session was concluded, and 

the committee proceeded into executive session.)

o