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INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGH TY -NINTH CONG RESS

FIR ST SE SS IO N

ON

TH E NO MINATIO N OF HA RR Y R. AN DE RS ON AS AS SI ST ANT

SECR ETAR Y OF TH E IN TE RI OR FOR PU BL IC

LA ND MANAG EMENT

JU LY 8, 1965

Pr inted for th e use of the

Comm itte e on Interio r and In su lar Affai rs

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51-883

U.S . GOVER NMENT PR INTING OFFIC E

WA SHING TO N : 196 5
z

A ' - W

COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSU LAR AFF AIRS

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington, Chairm an

CLINTON P. ANDERSON, New Mexico THOMAS H. KUCHEL, California

ALAN BIBLE, Nevada

FRANK CHURCH, Idaho

ERNEST GRUENINQ, Alaska

FRANK E. MOSS, Utah

QUENTIN N. BURDICK, North Dakota

CARL HAYDEN, Arizona

GEORGE MCGOVERN, South Dakota

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

LEE METCALF, Montana

GORDON ALLOTT, Colorado

LEN B. JORDAN, Idaho

MILWARD L. SIMPSON, Wyoming

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona

J erky T. Verkler, Staff Director

Stewart French, Chief Counsel

II
NOMINATION OF HARRY R.

SECRETARY OF THE INTERIO

MANAGEMENT

TANT

LAND

TH U R SD A Y , JU L Y 8, 19 65

U.S. Senate,

Committee on I nterior and I nsular Affairs,

Wa shing ton , D.C .

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:10 a.m. in room 3110 

New Senate Office Building, Senator Henry M. Jackson (chairman 

of the committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Henry M. Jackson (Washington), Alan Bible 

(Nevada), Ernes t Gruelling (Alaska), Fran k E. Moss (U tah ), Quentin N. Burdick (North Dakota), Thomas H. Kuchel (California), 

Gordon Allott (Colorado), Len B. Jorda n (Idaho ), and Paul J. 

Fannin (Arizona).

Also present: Jerry T. Verkler, staff direc tor; Stewart French, 

chief counsel; Roy M. Whitacre, professional staff member; and Richard N. Little, minority counsel.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

This is an open public hearing on the nomination of Mr. H arry R. 

Anderson, of California, to be Assistant Secretary of the In terior for 

Public Land Management. Mr. Anderson comes before the committee, and will approach his assignment, with a solid background of 

experience in key executive positions in the field of natural resources.

He has long been involved in administration of public policy relating to natu ral resources in the government of the State of California. At this point in the record, I will include a biographical 

sketch of the nominee for the information of the committee and the 

Senate.

(The document referred to follows:)

H arry R. Anders on, Ass is ta nt Secretary of th e I nterior

President Lyndon B. John son on Jun e 30. 1965, announced his intention to 

nominate Ha rry R. Anderson, of Sacramento, Calif., as Assistant Secretary of 

the Inter ior for Public Land Management, succeeding Joh n A. Carver, Jr., who 

was elevated to U nder S ecretary in January.

The Ass istant Secretary for Public Land Management has primary responsibility for operatio ns of the Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Ind ian 

Affairs, Bureau of Outdoor Recreation, Office of Ter rito ries, and Alaska Railroad.

Mr. Anderson has been deputy director of the California Dep artm ent of Fish 

and Game since Janu ary 15, 1960. The departm ent has approximately 1.200 

employees, with an ann ual budget of about .$12 million. Its responsibilities include wildlife protection, inla nd fisheries, game management, marine resources, 

wa ter projects and po llution control, and special stud ies; the deputy director exercis es direct supervision over hea dquar ters bran ches of these operating units 

and over six regional managers.

1
2 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Prior to bis Assignation a£».deputy director, Mr. Anderson was administrative 

officer of the California D epa rtm ent of F ish and Game from 1952 to 1960, su pervising all business an d related vice functions of the departm ent.

Mr. Anderson’s service witffipie Sta te of Californ ia span s 30 years. Prior 

to his work with the departm£qft of fish and game, he served as a supervising 

budget analyst with the Cafitp rnia Department of Finance. Major assignments incimjed supervision and* review of budgets for the departm ents of conservation, bea dles and parks, /s h and game, Sta te lands, wa ter resources, public 

works, and btjtihfs. Ilis^n^ yor sphere of concentration has been with the na tural resources agencjes,. his work has included involvement with Fed eral 

agencies in the same field.

Mr. Anderson was born May 21, 1910, in Merced County, Calif., and spen t his 

ear ly y ears on a ranch.

He holds a bachelor of science degree in business administration from the University of California (1934). He was on active duty with the Army Air Forces 

for 4 years du ring World War II, inclu ding 2 years in the European the ate r as a 

combat intelligence officer and is a lieu ten ant colonel in the Air Force Reserve.

Mr. Anderson is marrie d to the form er Merle Kueny, of Sacram ento. They 

have one daughter, Bettina, 20, a senior at the University of California.

He is an activ e outdoorsman who hun ts and fishes. He is a Scottish Rite 

Mason, a Shriner, a member of the Elks Club, University Club, and Valley Hi 

Country Club ; a past president of cha pter No. 2 of the California Employees 

Assoc iation ; a past preside nt of the State Men’s Club ; and a past chairman 

of the Deputy D irectors Conference Group.

The Chairman. Mr. Anderson, please come forward and be seated. 

However, before hearing you, I believe the senior Senator from Californ ia may wish to make some comments.

Senator Kuchel. Indeed I do, Mr. Chairman.

I have known this nominee of President Johnson both officially and 

personally since the end of the Second World War. I became State 

comptroller of California in 1946. Mr. Anderson at that time was a 

member of the department of finance in the State government.

As a result, I had innumerable occasions to get to know him officially 

as well as personally. I want to say that speaking for the State, if I 

may, I am very much honored that the President has seen fit to appoint 

Mr. Anderson.

For many years, he has been a dedicated civil servant. There have 

been no party politics involved of any kind or character in the discharge of his duties. I am confident tha t he will conduct his new 

office as Assistant Secretary of the Department of the Inte rior in the 

same manner.

Yesterday I had an opportunity to talk with Harry, and we agreed 

that his new duties concern all of the people of all of the States. These 

responsibilities have nothing to do with politics or partisanship, and 

I am confident that in the discharge of his new duties, Harry Anderson will bring the kind of dedication to public service tha t the American people appreciate and to which they will respond.

I have no desire to cross-examine him. I simply want to say to my 

colleagues, my Republican colleagues, and those who sit on the other 

side of the table in this Senate committee, tha t I am delighted with 

this nomination. You and I will have a man in a position of responsibility and power in the Department of the Interior who wants to be 

helpful and who will be helpful and will devote himself to the public 

interest. I congratulate you, Harry, because, in my judgment, there 

is reason to believe th at you may look forward to confirmation by the 

U.S. Senate.

Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Senator.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Kuchel.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 3

I think it might be helpful, Mr. Anderson, if you would just summarize your biographical statement. You m ight start out by telling 

us where you were born and about your career to date.

I think tha t would save some time for members of the committee, 

before they begin to ask questions.

Mr. Anderson. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I am a native Californian, having been bom in Merced County. I 

grew up on a small ranch in the county, and from there attended the 

University of California at Berkeley, m ajoring in business administration and, after approximately 1 y ear on the ranch, I took employment with the State department of finance.

The Chairman. You graduated?

Mr. Anderson. I graduated with a bachelor of science degree; yes, 

sir. Then in 1935 I was employed by the S tate department of finance 

until I went with the California Department of Fish and Game in 

1952, with the exception of 4 years in the military service, the Air 

Force, World War II.

I went to work for the department of fish and game as the administrative officer having the responsibility for the fiscal, personnel, and 

general business administration and management of the organization. 

We have in this California department approximately a $12 million 

budget and approximately 1,100 employees.

If I may just go back for a moment, my assignment with the departm ent of finance was as a budget analyst. I left as a supervising 

budget analyst for the department of finance. The job there was to 

review and analyze the budgets of the various departments and make 

presentations to the legislative committees.

Since 1960, I have been deputy director of the department of fish 

and game. My responsibilities there have been in charge of the operational functions of the department. As general background, I long 

have been interested in farm ing and ranching. As I mentioned 

earlier, I grew up on a small ranch in the San Joaquin Valley and I 

still have several small pieces of property, and am carrying on a limited amount of activity through a tenan t arrangement.

I believe, Mr. Chairm an, tha t gives a thumbnail sketch, unless you 

have further questions.

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Now, as I understand, your responsibilities will include the supervision over the Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Ind ian Affairs, Bureau of Outdoor Recreation, Office of Territories, and Alaska 

Railroad.

Do you have any preconceived ideas about how these bureaus and 

departments should be run? Is there any enlightenment that you 

could give to the members of the committee as to your philosophy of 

administration, policy, and so on ?

Mr. Anderson. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say 

that I want to approach the job and the problems concerning its activities with my eyes open, and with an open mind. I am definitely 

interested in good, efficient operations. We have a responsibility, I 

feel, to serve the public interest, and to operate in the most efficient 

manner possible. As for any particu lar philosophy of mine, I have 

not been close enough to many of these activities at this time to add 

much further here.
4 INTERIOR NOMINATION

The Chairman. Senator Bible?

Senator Bible. I don't know th at I have any extensive questions of 

Mr. Anderson. I have known Mr. Anderson well and favorably for 

some number of years. I would be interested in learning whether or 

not, in his capacity as deputy director of the California Department 

of Fish and Game over the period of the past 5 years, he has had 

any occasion to have dealt with the Bureau of Land Management as 

such ?

Mr. Anderson. Yes, Senator Bible. We have dealt with the Bureau of Land Management on a number of occasions. You will probably recall tha t California some years ago requested some recreation 

withdrawals on public lands, and withdrawals were granted to the 

State for recreational purposes. We have also dealt with the Bureau 

of Land Management in regard to the management of our deer 

herds in a number of areas, and we have always enjoyed good relationships with the Bureau of Land Management people as fa r as deer 

management is concerned, and especially the great basin herds in 

northeastern California.

Senator Bible. It occurs to me that one of our most difficult responsibilities is that which has to do with the management of the public 

domain, and I don’t know whether you have had any occasion to 

go into questions of range management or range allotments, cutbacks 

in allotments, insofar as they deal with our livestock interests.

Would you have had any contact with tha t in your capacity as 

assistant director of the California Department of Fish and Game?

Mr. Anderson. Senator, not to any great, extent. I know we have 

discussed with the Bureau of Land Management people the range 

conditions and the competition the range receives from cattle and 

sheep as well as the water situation, in an attem pt to work out a range 

use pattern. I appreciate the cattlemen’s and sheepmen’s point of 

view. Of course, on the other side, we have the recreationists or the 

sportsmen and the hunters. Their solution at times is to say, “Well, 

if you remove the sheep and the cattle, then there will be plenty of 

room for the deer.”

Senator Bible. How would you work that out? This is one of the 

many problems tha t we have.

Mr. Anderson. Senator, I thought tha t perhaps we were going to 

get. into this area. I feel we have to work toward multiple uses. 

There should be room for both. I don’t think we should stifle a cattle 

or a sheep community strictly to build up the deer herds. Now we 

have deer herds which should be kept in balance, and managed, and 

cropped like any other crop.

Senator Bible. Well, I don’t expect you to have any magic answer, 

because we have worked in this area for a long time, and I know tha t 

it is a very, very difficult problem. I would certainly hope th at you 

would, working with your Director of the Bureau of Land Management, attem pt to come up with some firm conclusions as to how best 

to manage the public domain.

This may well come within the purview of our Public Land Law Review Commission as to the best uses that can lie made of the range, but 

it is a constant problem, and an irrit ating problem, and one that I hope 

you will give very careful attention to.

I have no other questions at this time.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 5

The Chairman. Senator Allott?

Senator Allott. I can’t help but interject here that on this grazing 

versus deer, et cetera, tha t one of our fine farmers and cattlemen over 

near Greenwood Springs took a cowhide and stuffed it with some 

straw, not very well, and set it up in his field, and at the end of the 

deer season, he had eight bullet holes in it.

So t hat the problem is not at all one sided.

We have many questions, Mr. Anderson, pending before our committee with respect to mining and mineral leasing, and particularly 

as far as Colorado and Utah and Wyoming are concerned, in the oil 

shale business. I am not going to attempt to put you on the spot 

in any way, because these decisions are highly technical. But I would 

like to ask you if you now have any commitments, expressed or implied, or mental reservations, with respect to the policy of solving 

the patent location and leasing problems with respect to minerals on 

our public lands?

Mr. Anderson. Senator, I have no commitments, and I am really 

not familiar enough with it in sufficient detail even to answer your 

question intelligently.

Senator Allott. Well, this is the reason I am putting it in general 

terms, and not asking specifically. These are highly technical questions on which a decision can be arrived at only after a great deal of 

study, but we have many questions which have been bogged down over 

in the I nterior Department for a long time. I hope that we will have 

your assiduous attention to those tilings, because they are actually 

obstructing the development of our Western States at the present 

time.

1 might also mention specifically, and I do not ask you for a commitment, but out of the I960 revisions to the Mineral Leasing Act arose 

the (juestion of what, do we do about recordation of leases, and I have 

pending a bill on the subject. I will send you a speech that I recently 

made on this. It is not as much a speech as an analysis, but I hope 

this matter will receive your favorable consideration and attention, 

because it is a problem. It is an example of one of the many problems 

we do have in this area.

Now, I want to ask you two or three questions, Mr. Anderson. I 

hope you will not misunderstand them. I ask them for your own 

protection, and as a m atter of form, not because of any doubts I have. 

I ask them so that you can protect yourself, and I am ta lking about 

the area of personal interests.

Do you have any financial interests in the areas which would come 

under your jurisdiction, or do you have any partn ers or hold any 

stocks in companies which have a financial interest in the area of your 

jurisdiction?

The Chairman. Senator, as chairman, may I respond in part? I 

was going to urge that this matter be taken up in executive session. I 

met with Mr. Anderson yesterday, and called to his attention tha t 

provision of the new conflict-of-interest statute tha t was passed, I 

believe, in 1963, which is extended not only to nominees, but to their 

wives and to minor children, for the first time, and, therefore, I suggested tha t he p repare a list of the family’s resources, which he has 

done, and I have copies.
6 INTERIOR NOMINATION

T think th at we can go over the list in executive session or discuss 

it in pub lic session whichever the com mittee prefe rs. Th e rule in 

the Arme d Services Com mittee, generally speak ing , is th at the committee goes ove r the investments concerned as it affec ts the Defense 

De pa rtm ent, and the n advises, af te r com mittee decision , wha t p ro pe rties th e nominee sh ould dispose of, if any.

Th ere are tw o on th is list he has s ubmitted which, obvio usly , shou ld 

be dispos ed of. They are very m ino r holdin gs.

Se na tor Allott. Th en I shall no t inq uire into the m at this time. I 

will be ar with the wish of the chair ma n of the committee. Bu t I believe th at every Gover nment appointee sho uld hav e a righ t, fo r his 

own pro tec tion, to make this known to the com mittee, an d let me ask 

the que stio n in this way, the n : You hav e disclosed to the ch airma n of 

the com mittee, un de r lette r of July 7, 1965, and signed by you, the 

prop ertie s which you or yo ur fam ily own, and this repres ent s the 

sum tot al of you r financial reco rds?

Mr. Anderson. I t does.

Se na tor Allott. I hop e you un de rstand , sir , th at I am no t tryi ng 

to bedevil or bele agu er you. I am sim ply tryin g to make sure th at 

you have an op po rtu nity to ge t yoursel f in a position where you are 

en tir ely clear and free fro m cri ticism in the pe rfo rm ance o f y ou r own 

office.

Mr. Anderson. I ap preciat e th is Senator , and I have no res erv ations in divu lging an ythi ng I have, or any connection s an d contacts.

Se na tor Allott. Tha nk you very much, Mr. Anderson.

Th e Chairman. I sho uld also like to say—we have no t gone into 

th is m at te r much in the pa st—I think the com mittee sho uld adopt 

stan da rd op erating pro ced ure rega rd ing the req uir em ent of nominees 

to d isclose th eir resources. It is in t he in tere st of pr otec tin g the G overn me nt, the pu blic , a nd the nomine e, as S en ator A llo tt mentioned. I 

think it would be wise, too, th at if th ere is any chan ge in y ou r hold ing s 

while y ou hold office, you sh ould no tif y t he chair ma n of th e committee, 

an d we will keep th is in the file, and th e o ther m embers will be advised, 

and in th at way there will not be a ny trou ble in the fu tu re about any 

possible conflict of in terest.

These are ra th er new p rocedu res, which I th in k t he com mittee o ught 

to go over, and which we can discuss in executive session as to how 

we sho uld ha ndle the ques tion of p riv ate ho ldin gs.

Se na tor Allott. We ll, may I ju st say, Mr. Ch air ma n, I h ave asked 

this que stio n of num erous indiv iduals who hav e come up before th is 

com mittee fo r con firm atio n, an d I reg ard it as much as a matter of 

pro tec tio n fo r the in div idual as I do for the Gov ernment.

Th e Chairman. I agree wi th you completely. An d I adv ised Mr. 

An derso n yesterda y th at it was his own int ere st to make a» fu ll disclosure. No one can late r say th at an attempt w as made to withh old 

in fo rm ation on sec urities o r reso urces th at he might have t hat would 

in some manner he in conflict with his official duties.

Se na tor Allott. T hat is all I have.

Th e C hairman. Se na tor Gruenin g.

Se na tor Grue ning. Mr. Ander son , are y ou fa m ili ar with th e str uc ­

ture of the Dep artm en t of the In te rior ? Are you f am ilia r with how 

it is or ganiz ed?

Mr. A nderson. Yes, sir.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 7

Senator Gruening. Would you mind telling us what the various 

offices do there, Secretaries, Under Secretary ? There are four Assistant Secretaries, are there not ?

Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. The U nder Secretary, the Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks, Assistant Secretary for Public Land Management, Assistant Secretary for Water and Power, 

and Assistant Secretary for, I believe it is minerals.

Senator Gruening. Minerals, oil, and gas.

Mr. Anderson. Oil and gas.

Senator Gruening. According to your biographical sketch here, you 

seem to be superbly qualified for another assistant secretaryship, the 

one that has to do with fisheries and game. Your experience has been 

largely in that field, has it not ?

Mr. Anderson. Well, Senator, I feel tha t I would possibly be qualified in that field. I do have some experience. However, I have long 

had a broad interest in the public resources of the Nation as well as 

our State. It is a field tha t has always interested me very much. I 

am not familiar with many of the details of the operations of the land 

management activities, but in general, this is a field tha t has always 

been interesting and challenging to me.

Senator Gruening. The assistant secret ary ship for which you 

have been nominated has among its responsibilities tha t of Indians. 

Have you had any experience with Indians?

Mr. Anderson. To a limited extent, sir, dealing with several of 

the Indian tribes on fishing matters in California.

However, I want to point out tha t we have not had the complications 

and the problems tha t the Northwest States have experienced on I ndians as far as the fisheries are concerned. We have had some problems on the Klamath River.

Senator Gruening. Have you had any experience with Eskimos?

Mr. Anderson. No, sir.

Senator Gruening. Have you had any experience with national 

parks ?

Mr. Anderson. National parks, sir?

Senator Gruening. Yes.

Mr. Anderson. No; no operating experience; no, sir.

Senator Gruening. And you haven’t had much experience with 

land management?

Mr. Anderson. Not directly as a governmental operation, with the 

exception tha t lands were owned and operated by the State dep artment of fish and game.

Senator Gruening. Have you had any experience with railroad 

management ?

Mr. Anderson. No, sir.

Senator Gruening. One of the functions of this position to which 

you have been nominated is the Alaska Railroad.

Mr. Anderson. I appreciate that.

Senator Gruening. Were you an executive of the California Fish 

and Game Commission in 1963 ?

Air. Anderson. I have been the deputy director since 1960, sir.

Senator Gruening. Are you familiar with, a statement which was 

broadcast by the commission, u rging tha t the Ram part Dam not be 

built ?
8 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Mr. Anderson. If I recall correctly, the commission—that is the 

policymaking board for the department—did take some type of action. 

I don’t recall the details at this time.

Senator Gruening. Were you aware of it at the time? This was a 

statement issued and broadcast with a lot of publicity, stating tha t 

the California Department of Fish and Game was inalterably opposed 

to the construction of the Ram part Canyon Dam on the Yukon River 

in Alaska, and I was just wondering why the California Department 

of Fish and Game should concern itself with the power development 

in another State.

Mr. Anderson. Well, sir, the concern had to do with the waterfowl 

and the Pacific flyway. Most of the ducks and geese which enter the 

Pacific flyway going into California originate in Alaska and Canada, 

and it was my understanding tha t it was for this reason the C alifornia 

Fish and Game Commission, as well as others interested in the w ildlife of California, did take this position.

Senator Gruening. Well, you were aware of the statement, then, at 

the time it was issued, were you ?

Mr. Anderson. I recall the statement now; yes, sir.

Senator Gruening. Did you play any part in draft ing it ?

Mr. Anderson. No, sir.

Senator Gruening. You were merely aware of it. Were you aware 

that the statements made in this blast were largely incorrect ?

Mr. Anderson. I don’t recall the statement at this time, and if there 

was a misstatement of the facts, it was probably because they didn’t 

have the correct facts to work from or that they were probably misinformed.

Senator Gruening. Do you know whether the Department of Fish 

and Game of California consulted with any Alaskan authorities or 

with any of those concerned with this dam before issuing this blast ?

Mr. Anderson. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Senator Gin ening. Would this action by the department of which 

you were an executive affect your thinking on the subject in the 

future?

Mr. Anderson. I would like to approach it with an open mind. I 

frankly do not know enough at this time about the feasibility of the 

Ram part Dam and the significance and impact it would have on the 

other public resources to express an opinion. It is my understanding 

a report is in preparation—or has been prepared, I have not seen it— 

by one of the Federal agencies.

Senator Gruening. Well, the Department of the In terior is preparing its report on the feasibility of the dam and I suspect th at the Assistant Secretary for Land Management might have some influence in 

the matter. Therefore, I would like to make sure that you had no 

preconception about this matter, and that you would be open minded 

in appraising the facts as they are brought out, and not be prejudiced 

by a statement tha t was made by this commission of which you are an 

executive, without any consultation of the authorities connected with 

the dam, or before any studies had been completed.

This blast took place in August of 1963. At tha t time the studies 

having to do with fish and game were merely in their infancy, and 

yet the Department of Fish and Game of California prejudged it, and 

declared and broadcast tha t it was inalterably opposed to the construction of the Ramp art Canyon Dam on the Yukon River in Alaska.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 9

How do you think the people of C alifornia would react if a group 

in Alaska came out and said it was inalterably opposed to some project 

in California? Do you think tha t would be well received?

Mr. Anderson. It would no doubt be disturbing in some circumstances.

Senator Gruening. Wouldn’t they consider they were going a little 

bit far afield in minding somebody else’s business?

Mr. Anderson. I feel a point could be made in tha t direction; yes, 

sir.

Senator Gruening. I have no further questions.

The Chairman. Senator Jordan.

Senator J ordan. Mr. Anderson, I like the for thrigh t manner in 

which you have replied to the questions that have been propounded to 

you. This p articula r assistant secretaryship to which you have been 

nominated covers a broad spectrum of responsibilities. It has already 

been outlined pretty well.

I doubt in my own mind tha t unless someone had already served 

in this job that we could find a man in one lifetime who would have had 

experience in all of these categories tha t come under your responsibility.

I appreciate your answers to the questions to the effect that you will 

approach the problems with which you are not familiar with an open 

mind.

In my own State of Idaho there are some 12 million acres of unreserved public domain land under the Bureau of Land Management. 

There is also the controversy brewing there as to what is the highest 

use fo r tha t land—grazing, forestry, in some instances, mineral leasing desertland entries for parts of it which can receive water pumped 

from the river, and so on.

At the present time, we have out there a controversy that has generated a lot of heat. A year or so ago, a number of desertland entries 

were approved in my State, but they have since been withdrawn.

Obviously the people who had spent their money in making the 

entry and developing the land were put to a good deal of expense and 

this withdrawal is on appeal. Now as I understand it, as one of your 

duties, you would be an appeal officer for withdrawal of desertland 

entries of this nature. My question to you is, Have you any preconceived notions about whether the Federal Government should dispose of that land under the established law respecting desertland 

entries? Does the Federal Government need more land, or does it 

have about enough ?

What is your idea about that? Would you care to address yourself to that ?

Mr. Anderson. Senator, as I indicated earlier, I am not familiar 

with the details of this, and in the situation you have outlined I have a 

very limited background. However, before making any decision, I 

would certainly like to look at the facts completely, and, as I indicated 

earlier, I definitely want to keep an open mind until I do so. As 

far as regards the question of whether the Federal Government has 

enough land, or should dispose of land, I feel that the overall public 

interest is the thing we have to keep in mind. I feel that there are 

many legitimate uses of public lands. When people have used public 

land for some time, equities arise. I think we must deal with them 

equitably.
10 INTERIOR NOMINATION

We have an expanding population. We have new demands; no 

doubt changing conditions and changing demands for these properties 

cause changes in the economy. It is a constant, live, and changing 

situation.

Senator J ordan. There is a belief in any State, and I thin k Jt can be 

substantiated, tha t the Solicitor’s Office runs the Department with 

respect to public land, over and above any directives from the Assistant Secretary. I would certainly hope th at you would keep an open 

mind on this matter; that you would, if the occasion demanded, assert 

some control that would be inherent in the duties of your office in this 

respect.

It is a genuinely troublesome issue in any State, and I hope you 

will bear it in mind.

Another area of responsibility which you have has to do with cadastra l engineering. I doubt tha t you have had much experience in cadastral engineering. Is that true ?

Mr. Anderson. That is true. I have had no experience.

Senator J ordan. It is very important. Many of the lands of the 

Western States are still unsurveyed. Up to several years ago, there 

were some 9 million acres in my own State tha t were still unsurveyed. There may have been some progress made in the past few 

years, but it is very important that, we proceed with an orderly surveying program, and get this land platted.

Would you agree tha t tha t is an important objective ?

Mr. Anderson. Sir, it appears to me, if we are going to manage these 

lands, we should at least know where the boundaries are and therefore, 

I should think surveys should move ahead.

Senator J ordan. It is extremely important, and one of your responsibilities.

Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.

Senator J ordan. No more questions.

The Chairman. Senator Moss ?

Senator Moss. Mr. Anderson, I am very glad to see you before this 

committee, and I look forward to working with you. I think we will 

have a very fine relationship.

Mr. Anderson. Thank you.

Senator Moss. My State of Utah is about 70 percent federally 

owned, and most of th at land would be under your jurisdiction as the 

Assistant Secretary. We in Uta h have tremendous interests in the 

management of the public domain. We have had some problems 

tha t have been of rather long standing.

When we attained statehood the State was granted four sections 

in every township for the public schools. We have been a State now 

for 70 years and we still have several hundred thousand acres we have 

never been able to get, because of various reasons, but in p art because 

of the slowness of processing the State selections. On many of those 

lands, the precise section is no longer available because i t has been 

preempted by the Federal Government for one reason or another. The 

State is entitled to select in lieu lands to replace those sections, but this 

has been a constant problem we have. Now I wonder if you have 

any familiarity with tha t problem ?

I think California is probably very far advanced and probably you 

do not have many lands tha t have not been obtained under the selection process.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 11

Mr. Anderson. Sir, I believe the California lands have all been 

taken up. I am not familiar with any selections tha t remain. This 

is something I would be glad to look into fu rthe r, and also discuss at 

your convenience.

Senator Moss. Well, I would appreciate your early attention. I 

would certainly like to have the feeling that you recognize t ha t you 

not only have the responsibility to guard the interests of the Federal 

Government, and its proprietorship, but you have an equal responsibility to the States in which these lands lie to protect the States’ 

rights. The relationship should not be an adversary proceeding, with 

you always lining up, as it were, against whatever the State proposed 

to do.

Your job is to be on both sides, to be fair and equitable and just, and 

above all, to try to get the problem resolved in the earliest possible 

time. I have felt tha t many times in the past the managers of the 

Federal domain have always lined up solidly on whatever they thought 

was the Federal side and were rather unwilling to listen to the State.

I don’t say it is always on one side. Perhaps the State managers 

are a little bit biased on the ir side sometimes. But you must rise above 

that, i f you are going to be the adm inistrator, and see that the problem 

is resolved fairly and quickly. Is this in accord with your concept as 

to how you would operate as the Assistant Secretary ?

Mr. Anderson. Senator, I have had State experience. Now I will 

begin an area of Federal responsibility and I would certainly like to 

brin g the two together. We have one citizenry, and we have a responsibility to the people, if I may speak in a general way.

I appreciate th at we have jurisdictional disputes. Fo r example, we 

have had difference at times between the States and the counties. I 

also recognize th at some times the States look to the Federal Government. as being, oh, too overpowering. I will certainly try to be impartial.

Senator Moss. I appreciate your response. It seems to me that a 

good administrator, rather than retreat behind the letter of the law— 

all too often, the letter of the law is used as an excuse for not proceeding—but a good administrator will exert his energies to find a way 

to go ahead and get done what needs to be done. The hiding-behindthe-book attitude has been my principal frustration in dealing with 

the managers of the public domain—this retre at behind the letter 

that says you can’t do this and you can’t do that, rather than finding 

a way to get something done.

With your attitude, I am sure we will get along all righ t, Mr. 

Anderson.

Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Senator.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Moss. Senator Fannin ?

Senator F annin. Mr. Anderson, I know th at you have a very outstanding reputation in the fish and wildlife fields, and I was also very 

much impressed with your statements tha t you do favor multiple 

utilization of natural resources. I am just wondering if you will 

have considerable pressure from around the country, since you have 

been working with the fish and wildlife people from all over 

the Nation over the years, considerable pressure from them to 

accept their position, ra the r than to have an open mind.
12 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Do you feel th at pressure from such special interest groups is going 

to be a factor in your activities?

Mr. Anderson. Sir, I will definitely be openminded, and I would 

like to go on record here tha t I am not a captive of any group.

Senator Fannin. Well, at the same time, you do have friends who 

have probably been in meetings throughout the years, both at the 

State level and at the national level, where these different problems 

have been discussed. I don’t know th at you have taken a particular 

stand on any particular problem tha t would be involved. I think 

you have said before tha t you are not committed in any respect, but 

do you feel that it will be difficult for you to work with some of these 

people, inasmuch as you have been, in many instances, on the other 

side of the fence ?

Mr. Anderson. It is true I have many friends, acquaintances not 

only in California but other States, and in the Federal Government 

and organizations in the field of fish and game, as well as in the general field of recreation.

However, I do not feel tha t I would be unduly influenced, and I 

think I can keep my perspective on the broader front.

Senator Fannin. And you feel tha t you can support multiple 

utilization ?

Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.

Senator Fannin. On the question of BLM lands, as you know, in 

many of the Western States, they are having problems concerning 

orderly disposal of lands surrounding cities and towns. Do you 

have any ideas in that regard, any thoughts as to what could be done 

to expedite these disposals, or to at least satisfy some of the needs that 

exist in areas surrounding towns and cities?

Mr. A nderson. Sir, it is my understanding t hat of the two or three 

relevant acts that passed the last session of Congress, one was for the 

disposal program, as well as the classification of lands. It is my 

understanding that the Department has been working on a classification program, and will soon have its findings completed. Under 

these acts, as I recall, the Congress calls for a policy of disposal of 

lands that should not be held, and the disposal, as I understand, 

would be to cities and counties and for residential and industrial uses, 

in the path of our expanding and growing communities, as well as 

isolated parcels.

This is a program that, it would appear to me, should move ahead.

Senator Fannin. Well, fine, I am very pleased to have you make 

that statement. I do feel a great deal has been done as far as parks 

and recreation are concerned. At the same time, we Still have the 

problem you mention of industrial needs, or need for housing. Tha t 

still is a great problem, and I hope that you will have an open mind 

in this regard, but I realize the grea t need that exists, especially in 

some of the western areas.

Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Fannin. Senator Burdick?

Senator Burdick. In North Dakota we have four Indian reservations. The once proud Sioux are out of buffalo meat, and many of 

them are unemployed. Have you any ideas about Indians and 

Indian reservations?
INTERIOR NOMINATION 13

Mr. A nderson. Sir, it is my understanding from what I have been 

able to gather over the years as well as from recent reading, tha t the 

Indian economy, or the Indian well-being, is a problem that has been 

with us a long, long time. I feel that everything within reason and 

possibility should be done to improve their economic well-being, and 

their educational opportunities, and the health improvement programs, so we can give them the same opportunities as the other citizenry of this country.

Senator Burdick. Does tha t include job opportunities?

Mr. Anderson. I feel tha t is part of their economic well-being. 

Unless they have job opportunities, they are not going to be able to 

find their place in society.

Senator Burdick. Thank you very much.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Any further questions of the nominee?

The committee will go into executive session briefly. The Chair 

wishes to announce th at if it is agreeable, we will take up the formal 

vote on the nomination on the 19th, when we will have the next meeting 

of the full committee.

However, I think there are some matters in connection with the 

stockholdings of the nominee we would like to question. The committee will recess into executive session at this time, rn the library.

(Whereupon, at 10:55 a.m., the committee proceeded in executive 

session.) c fA