NOMINATION OF THE ASSISTAN T SEC RET ARY OF THE

INTERIOR FOR INDIAN AFF AIR S GOVERNMENT

Storage J M E N T S

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F * . • U'-'HARV

KANSAS STATE UN"

¥H E A R IN G S

BEFORE TH E

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS

NI NE TY -FIFTH CONGRESS

FIR ST SES SION

ON

NOM INAT ION OF

FO RR ES T J. GERARD TO B E AN AS SIS TANT SECRETA RY OF T HE 

INTE RIOR , VIC E ALBERT C. ZAPANTA, RE SIG NE D

SE PT EM BE R 9 AND 12, 1977

KSU LIBRARIES

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96-907 0

U. S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1977
SE LE CT COM M IT TEE ON IN DIA N A FFA IR S

[Created by S. Res. 4, 95th Cong.]

JAMES ABOUREZK, South Dakota, Chairman

HOWARD METZENBAUM, Ohio DEWEY F. BARTLETT, Oklahoma

JOHN MELCHER, Montana MARK 0. HATFIELD, Oregon

Ernest L. Stevens, Staff Directo r

Alan R. Parker, Chief Counsel

Michael D. Cox, Minor ity Counsel
CON T E N T S

«

Witnesses

Page

Andrus, Cecil, Secretary of the Interior____________________________ 6

Baucas, Hon. Max, U.S. Representative from the State of Montana_____ 5

Prepared statement_________________________________________ 5

De La Cruz, Joe, president, National Tribal Chairman’s Association_____ 85

Gerard, Forrest, nominee for Assistant Secretary of the Interior for In­ dian Affairs______________________________________________ __ p;. 37

Prepared statement_________________________________________ ’ 17

Response to questions asked by the committee, with attachments___ 55

Metcalf, Hon. Lee, U.S. Senator from the State of Montana___________ 3

Old Person, Earl, chairman, Blackfeet Tribe_______________________ 78

Tonasket, Mel, president, National Congress of American Indians; and

chairman, Colville'Confederated Tribe______________ 2___________ 80

Townsend, Bruce M., chairman, Legislative Committee, National Tribal

Chairman’s Association_______________________________________ 88

Trimble, Charles E., executive director, National Congress of American 

Indians ___________________________________________________ 80

Material Submitted

Alaska Federation of Natives, Emil Notti, chairman of the board, and 

Byron I. Malloth, president, telegram of Sept. 9, 1977_____________

Baker, Rick, president, Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council, letter of Aug. 30, 

1977 ______________________________________________________

Cournoyer, Ronald L., executive director, United Southeastern Tribes, 

telegram of Sept. 9, 1977_____________________________________

Frank, Bill, Jr., chairman, Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission, telegram of Sept. 9, 1977________________________________________

Frazier, Gregory W., executive director, Al-Ind-Esk-A, lette r of Sept. 6, 

1977 ______________________________________________________

Hopson, Edwa rd E., president, Arctic Slope Regional Corporation, mailgram of Sept. 6, 1977________________________________________

Johnson, Roland E., Governor, Pueblo of Laguna, letter of Sept. 12, 1977— 

Kautz, Georgeana, chairperson, Nasqually Indian Tribe, mailgram of

Sept. 8, 1977________________________________________________

Laselute, Edison, Governor, Pueblo of Zuni, letter of Aug. 31, 1977---------

Lovato, Dolfin J., chairman, All Indian Pueblo Council, prepared statement ______________________________________________________

McNevin, Anthony J., executive director, American Association of Colleges

of Osteopathjc Medicine, letter of Sept. 13, 1977-----------------------------

Minnesota Chippewa T ribe:

Telegram of Sept. 9, 1977___________________________________

Resolution 3-78------------------------------------------------------------------ Morris, Elizabeth, acting executive director, National Indian Activities Association, letter of Sept. 9, 1977-------------------------------------------------

O’Neill, Thomas P. Il l, Lieutenant Governor, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, letter of Sept. 2, 1977--------------------------------------------------

Papago Tribe of Arizona, letter of Sept. 7, 1977------------------------ -- Pletnikoff, Pat, executive director, Aleutian/Pribilof Islands Association,

letter of Aug. 18, 1977----------------------------------------------------------—

Plumage, Charles Jack, chairman, Fort Belknap Community Council, telegram of Sept. 6, 1977--------------------------------------------------------------

Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians, Resolution No. 127-77---------------

Roessel, Dr. Robert A., assistant to the director, Rough Rock School Board,

lette r of Aug. 29, 1977----------------------------------------------« Saganey, Elwood, chairman, Navajo Area Indian Health Board, letter of

Sept. 6, 1977,,------------------------------------------------------------------ Small Tribes Organization of Western Washington, prepared Sta tem entTinker, Sylvester, J., principal chief, Osage Tribe of Indian s---------------

Yakima Indian Nation, prepared statement-------------------------------------

(in)

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NOMINATION OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE

INTERIOR FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1977

U .S . S en a te,

S elec t C om mit te e on I ndia n A ff air s,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursu ant to notice, at 10:04 a.m. in room 6202, 

Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator James Abourezk (chairman) 

presiding. Pres ent: Senators Abourezk, Melcher, Metzenbaum, and Bartlett.

Staff present: Alan Parker, chief counsel; Kathryn Tijerina, counsel ; and Michael Cox, minority counsel.

Chairman Abourezk. The hearing will come to order.

The purpose of this hearing is to consider the nomination of Fo rrest J . Gerard to be the Assistant Secretary of the I nte rior for Indian 

Affairs. Today’s proceedings are noteworthy because they embody a number 

of historical firsts. As you know, the Constitution of the United States 

in article II , section 2, clause 2, states tha t the President “shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint * * * officers of the United States.”

This provision is one of the important checks and balances of our 

system of government. Further, it is a provision which has studiously 

been adhered to by the Senate as a body, I should add, I think to a 

greater and lesser degree. [Laughter.]

Today marks the first occasion of the Senate Select Committee on 

Indian Affairs’ participation in this crucial Senate responsibility. It 

is the first time in the Senate’s history tha t we have had an opportunity to consider the nomination of an Assistant Secretary to head 

the executive work in Indian affairs.

In the past the highest post in this area was the Commissioner of 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs. This new elevation of the position to 

Assistant Secretary within the Department of the Inte rior may prove 

to be of grea t value to the administration of programs which are 

vital to the survival of the Indian people. Under Secretary of the Interior Jim Joseph testified August 1 

before this committee tha t the upgrading was more than symbolic. 

Rather, as a member of the Department’s policy team, the new Assistant Secretary will participate in all policy decisions, including the 

operation of the non-Indian bureaus in the Inte rior Department.

Finally, today’s proceedings will provide the first opportunity for 

this committee to examine what policies the nominee for Assistant 

(1)
2

Secretary plans to pursue and how he plans to implement those programs for which he is responsible.

The opportunity is enriched by the fact tha t the Secretary of In ­

terior is here today. Along with the Assistant Secretary he will be most 

influential in affecting the course of Indian affairs in this administration. He is here today to introduce Mr. Gerard and will be available for questions rega rding his view of the role of the Assistant 

Secretary and the admin istrative recommendations of the American 

Indian Policy Review Commission.

Although the confirmation process requires the knowledge of what 

type of Assistant Secretary the nominee intends to be, some of the .

issues have already been addressed in previous oversight hearings.

As we noted, Under Secretary of Interior Joseph testified on several 

points which we will not reconsider in today’s hearings. We look forward to what Secretary Andrus has to say in presenting his nominee.

We are anxious to hear from Mr. Gerard to gain a clear view of his 

position on the issues.

Most of the committee’s time will be spent in an examination of his 

credentials, but we will also ask and entertain any questions of 

Mr. Gerard from tribes and other interested parties who cannot be 

represented at the committee bench up here.

First at the witness table now is the Secretary of the Interior Cecil 

Andrus; our colleague from Montana, Senator Metcalf is next to 

him; and Congressman Max Baucus from Montana.

I would like to first of all to welcome all of you here. Senator Metcalf, I have said this before. This is probably the first time you have 

not sat on an Indian committee of some sort for an awfully long time.

Probably since you came to the Senate.

Senator Metcalf. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Abourezk. Some of the other Members want to make 

opening comments before we star t with the testimony.

Senator Bartlett?

Senator Bartlett. I thank the chairman.

Mr. Chairman, it is indeed a pleasure for me to welcome Senator 

Metcalf, Congressman Baucus, and Secretary Andrus to this committee meeting, and to welcome Mr. Gerard. I extend my congratulations to Mr. Gerard on his nomination to be Assistant Secretary of 

the Interior fo r Indian Affairs.

I also want to congratulate Secretary Andrus and the administration on their selection of Mr. Gerard, whom I consider an excellent 

nominee to charge with the responsibility for administering the Federal tr ust for this country’s first Americans.

During the almost 6 years Mr. Gerard served as a staff member of 

the Interior and Insu lar Affairs Committee, I had the opportunity to 

work with him on many Ind ian matters including such landmark 

legislation as the Indian Self-Determination and Educational Assist-, 

ance Act and the Indian Health Care Improvement Act. *

I am and have always been impressed with the conscientious and 

sincere manner in which he addresses and pursues not only the more 

complex and controversial issues in the Indian affairs field but all 

matters, large and small, pertaining to the well-being of the Indian ♦-

people of this country.
3

Mr. Gerard brings to the position of Assistant Secretary for Indian 

Affairs a wealth of knowledge and experience, and a dedication to 

Indian issues and concerns, as well as the skills of an effective and 

persuasive advocate for Indian rights.

For too long now, the operations of the Bureau of Indian Affairs 

have been seriously hampered by a lack of permanent leadership. I 

have every confidence that Mr. Gerard can fill th is void, and it is my 

hope the committee will move expeditiously on this nomination.

Again, Mr. Gerard, I welcome you to the committee and congratulate you and the administration on your selection fo r this important 

post.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you.

Chairman Abourezk. Senator Melcher ?

Senator Melcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I, too, welcome my colleagues from Montana—Senator Metcalf and 

Congressman Baucus. I t is great to see you again, Air. Secretary.

I think you made a particularly fine appointment, Mr. Secretary. 

We have a Native American heading the Bureau o f Indian Affairs and 

a member of the Blackfoot Tribe—one of the great American tribes. 

This appointment ought to be an example for all appointments. When 

you bring into a top level position somebody who has a background to 

really perform—we have great confidence in your performance for 

us. I do not think tha t you are going to disappoint us.

I would like so say that this career started in college, of course. 

You graduated from the University of Montana or Montana State, 

did you not ?

Air. Gerard. The university.

Senator Melcher. The University of Alontana.

An employee of my staff, Mary Condon Jerome, takes great pride 

in the fact tha t she gave you your first position as a superintendent 

of public instruction in Alontana. What was your job? Career development? You performed well there, and you have performed well in 

every capacity tha t I am aware of since then. I think it is a tremendous appointment, Mr. Secretary.

We are greatly honored that you made tha t appointment speaking 

as a Montanan. I think speaking for the country, and in particular 

for Native Americans you have made an outstanding appointment.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Abourezk. S enator Metcalf has a statement he would like 

to make. I understand th at he has to go immediately to another committee meeting.

STATEMENT OF HON. LE E M ETCA LF, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STA TE 

OF MONTANA

Senator AIetcalf. Thank you very much, Air. Chairman.

As you commented earlier, I have been in the Congress for 25 years. 

In 23 of those years I have served on an Indian committee either in the 

House of Representatives or in the Senate. For 2 years I was a 

member of the Ways and Means Committee of the House of Representatives and unable to serve on any other committee.
4

When I first came to Congress, Mr. Chairman, the flag was out for 

termination of the Indians. Lo and behold, as in “Abou Ben Adhem,” 

the Flathead Tribe was the first one. Their name led all the rest.

I have long advocated termination, but I have advocated termination of the Bureau of Ind ian Affairs rath er than termination of the 

Indian tribes and control over them. I believe that one of the first 

steps toward such termination is the creation of this new Cabinet 

appointment.

I worked as a Senator, as the chairman of this committee knows, 

for the reorganization of the committees so th at we could have this 

new Indian committee. Of course, I worked on the Indian Claims 

Committee under the admirable leadership of the Senator from North 

Dakota.

In all these years I have worked for the benefit of Indians and 

Indian affairs as I saw it. Therefore, I am very pleased this morning 

to come here and advocate the confirmation of my friend and colleague 

from the State of Montana for the new position of Assistant Secretary 

of the Interior for Ind ian Affairs. It is a position that has been long 

needed.

During the time tha t I worked on the Indian committees, at one 

time I was chairman of the Subcommittee on Indian Affairs of the 

Senate Interior Committee. T hat was the year we passed the Alaska 

Native Claims Act, Mr. Chairman. We have worked for major legislation with Forre st Gerard. Some of the legislation which bears his 

imprint includes such things as the Indian Health Self-Care Improvement Act, the Indian Self-Determination and Education Act, the In ­

dian Financing Act, the Sub-Marginal Lands Act, and many, many 

others.

Forrest is a professional and a diplomat. He is knowledgeable and 

courageous. He is supported by the Montana Inter-Tribal Policy 

Board. I am delighted to see that my old friend, Earl Old Person, is 

going to be on the list of witnesses this morning.

I compliment the Secretary of the Interior for this appointment. 

Montanans, as my friend and colleague has suggested, are very pleased 

tha t we at last have a Montanan in one of the m ajor positions in this 

new administration. I wholeheartedly endorse him and urge his early 

confirmation.

Senator Melcher suggested tha t Mary Condon, who used to be the 

State superintendent of public instruction when I was working in the 

State of Montana, advocated and gave Forrest his first job.

I am here this morning with an endorsement tha t is even earlier 

than Mary’s. I have a letter from May Vallance, who now lives in 

Hamilton, Mont. She says, “My wish now is for you to vote for the 

confirmation of Forrest Gerard for first Assistant Secretary of the 

Inte rior for Indian Affairs.” One never saw a happier, more excited 

ex-school teacher than I when it was announced over the radio.

Forrest was one of the 45 pupils I had on my rolls, Senator Melcher, in the 

fou rth grade at Browning in 1935 and 1936. Of all the youngsters, I definitely 

remember For rest and hav e followed his career with gre at interest and much 

pride.

My, how I would enjoy being present at his confirmation.
5

I wish May could be here. I endorse tha t early accolade from a 

schoolteacher of his. I am delighted tha t the State of Montana and 

this outstanding citizen from Montana has been recognized with this 

appointment by Secretary Andrus.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Abourezk. Thank you, Senator Metcalf.

Before you go, I ju st want to say that when I first got elected to the 

Senate as a Democrat, one of my old teachers put her head in her 

hands and said, “My God, what did I do wrong?” I am glad there 

are teachers around.

Senator Metcalf. She probably taught you spelling, Senator.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Abourezk. Thank you, Senator.

One of the distinguished Congressmen from Montana, Max Baucus, 

is here to make a statement.

Max, I would like to welcome you to the committee.

STATEM ENT OF HON. MAX BAUCUS, U.S. RE PR ES EN TA TIVE FROM 

TH E STATE OF MONTANA

Congressman Baucus. Th ank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have a prepared statement which I would like to submit for the 

record with the committee’s permission, and which I will briefly summarize.

Chairman Abourezk. Without objection. '

[The prepared statement of Congressman Max Baucus follows:]

Statement of Representative Max Baucus at th e Confirm ation Hearing of

F orrest Gerard to be Assistant Secretary of I nterior for I ndian Affairs

Senator Abourezk, Senator Metc alf, Senator Melcher and members of the 

Select Comm ittee on Ind ian Affairs. I am gra teful for the inv itatio n to app ear 

before thi s Committe e to supp ort the nomination of Fo rre st J. Ge rar d to he 

Ass ista nt Sec reta ry of Int eri or for Ind ian Affairs.

Montana, like many weste rn sta tes , sha res a vita l concern and int ere st in the 

policies of the Fed eral govern ment reg ard ing native America ns. Fo rre st Gerard 

und erst and s those concerns and the effectiveness of past and cu rre nt Federal 

Ind ian policies.

For rest, a member of the Blackfe et Tribe, was born in Browning, Montana. He 

gra duate d from Montana Sta te Univers ity. He came to Was hington, D.C., in 

1957 as Triba l Relations Officer for the India n Hea lth Service. Fo rre st is no 

stranger to the Hill. He served as sta ff assis tan t for the Senate Subcomm ittee on 

Ind ian Affairs where he was involved in the developm ent of the Ind ian SelfDeterm inat ion and Educa tion Ass istance Act, and legislation esta blis hing the 

American Ind ian Policy Review Commission.

Fo rre st has proven himself an inte llig ent advo cate as well as an outs tand ing 

execu tive in his work with the Sen ate Inter ior Committee. Bureau of Indi an 

Affairs and the Ind ian Health Service.

It is indeed a pleasure and a high hon or for me to supp ort the nominatio n of 

Fo rre st Gera rd. My fellow Mon tana ns ar e proud of Fo rre st’s past accomp lishments and extend the ir best wishes to him as the Inter ior De par tment ’s first 

Ass ista nt Secreta ry for Ind ian Affairs.

Tha nk you very much.

Representative Baucus. I will not add into all of the praise that has 

been heaped upon Forrest Gerard mostly because it is repetitious. I 

do, however, wish to join in as fully as I possibly can in that praise.
6

I would like to say for Senator Metcalf’s information tha t I ran 

into May Vallance just about 1 week ago in Montana and she just as 

eagerly in person encouraged me to do what I could to help the confirmation of Forrest Gerard. She spoke about him in terms as glowing 

in person as she did in her letter to Senator Metcalf.

Forrest is a Montanan. It is for that reason that I am proud to be 

here urging this committee’s affirmation of his confirmation.

Second; as has been pointed out, he has a lot of experience in 

Montana on reservations. He is a Blackfeet member. He knows what 

the problems are.

Third, as Senator Metcalf detailed, he has spent extensive time here 

in the Senate on various committees and also at the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs. He has had the Federal experience.

Although I have not known Forrest personally for very long, in the 

short time that I have known him he has impressed me as a man of 

sound judgment and the kind of reserve tha t is necessary to make 

solid decisions. I know first impressions can sometimes be dangerous, 

but I can tell you that based upon the few moments I have in speaking 

with him that I feel very good about him.

Therefore, I urge the committee to act expeditiously. I am sure that 

all of us will be very proud of him in the years to come.

Thank you very much.

Chairman Abourezk. Thank you very much, Congressman Baucus.

You are welcome to stay if you would like, unless you have to get 

back. You are welcome either way.

Representative Baucus. I should return to the other side ; thank you.

Chairman Abourezk. Tha nk you.

Before we start, Mr. Secretary, I would first like to swear Forrest in.

Will you raise your right hand?

Do you, Forrest Gerard, swear to tell the whole trut h and nothing 

but the truth in the testimony you are about to give ?

Mr. Gerard. I do, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Secretary Andrus, I would like to welcome 

you once again to the committee. Do you have an opening statement 

tha t you would like to make?

STATEMENT OF CECIL ANDRUS, SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT 

OF TH E INTE RIOR

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairm an and members of the committee, 

yes, I do. May I deviate from the norm briefly, though, prior to doing 

that, with your permission? I would like to introduce to you Mrs.

Gerard. She is an outstanding lady who is seated rig ht behind us here.

I would like to introduce her to you.

Chairman Abourezk. Mrs. Gerard, will you stand up, please?

[Applause.]

Secretary Andrus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. *

As you know, this administration conducted an extensive search for 

qualified candidates for the position of A ssistant Secretary for Indian 

Affairs of the Department of the Interior.

As you pointed out, Mr. Chairman, this is a new position which was <*

created because President Carter, myself, other members of the ad-
ministration, and you in an early discussion I had with you prio r to 

my confirmation determined tha t this was a needed position in our 

opinion. We did not create this position, Mr. Chairman, to circumvent any plans that the In dian people of America might have coming out of the American Indian Policy Review Commission with regard to a separate agency. You have heard me testify on tha t matter and others have also. I see no reason to repeat it unless, of course, it is your desire. We went to the Indian nations of America for their recommenda­ tions. Senator Melcher, Senator Metcalf, and others have compli­ mented me because of my choice in the man I am about to introduce to you. I appreciate the accolades, but I would have to submit to you, Mr. Chairman, th at these recommendations came from Indian leaders 

of the Indian nations of America. We followed th eir lead. W ithin the Department of the Interior we consulted with, by letter, more than 250 leaders of the Indian nations. We asked for their recommendations. Our initial listing came to 37 outstanding individuals. Tha t was reduced by the recommendations of the members of th e Indian community of America to 25. We started an extensive interview program w ithin Interior. Under Secretary Joseph admittedly did most of the preliminary work in this regard. I personally met with and interviewed eight individuals. Mr. Chairman, when you take a search like tha t and then you condense i t to eight individuals you have eight outstanding individ­ uals tha t you can choose from. It is a very difficult job, but we made that choice, Mr. Chairman, afte r the meetings and questioning of the 

individuals. There has always been some concern on the part of the triba l leaders with respect to policy initiatives in the area of Indian affairs. I want to say tha t this is not an area tha t we have overlooked. Rather, it is an area in which this Administration and myself, as Secretary of the Interior, will look to the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs to take the lead—in those areas of policy initiative for Indian affairs. This person will be charged with the responsibility for formulating and helping to formulate the final policy of this administration in the Department of the Int erior as we deal with areas of vital concern 

to all of us. Having said that, let me get to the nominee himself, if I might. Mr. Chairman, it gives me pleasure to introduce to you and the members of this committee our nominee. I think, however, that all of you are well acquainted with this gentleman. President Carter has selected for nomination to fill the position of Assistant Secretary for 

Indian Affairs, Mr. For rest J. Gerard. It is with a great deal of personal pleasure and pride that I present him to you and your colleagues this morning, Mr. Chairman. As I said, he is no stranger to the committee. Senator Metcalf pointed out tha t he has a 20-year record of representing the Indian nations of America here as a committee staff person working with and for Federal agencies and independent consultants for many of 

the Indian nations. He has established a reputation that I think makes him well qualified to serve in this position. I believe firmly tha t it is an outstanding 

choice for the pos ition.
8

I came to the secretaryship of Inte rior from the governorship of 

the State of Idaho. We have five reservations in the State of Idaho. 

I am very familiar with the complex problems that face the Indian 

people of America.

I firmly believe that the first step tha t we must make in order to 

solve and resolve some of the problems that face us in this regard in 

the Department of the Interior is to have an Assistant Secretary for 

Indian Affairs who sits at the policy level instead of the Commissioner 

level where things filter down.

That is the reason why President Carter approved our plan to move 

tha t position upward. I believe tha t the place to star t with our problems is in the Department. Consequently, the position of Assistant 

Secretary for Indian Affairs was created to allow this timely participation in our policy decisions.

The evaluation which has taken place by the tribes of America and 

the consultation tha t we have had with their leaders has brought us 

to the day when we are in a position to recommend to you our nominee.

I feel th at Mr. G erard is the best nominee for the position. I have 

not know n him in the past. He came to me via the Indian nations of 

America as one of their outstanding recommendations.

I have worked with him as a consultant these last few months. I 

have gotten to know him, and I can say to you, Mr. Chairman, tha t 

I underscore what the Indian nations said to me earlier and what you 

heard your colleagues say to you today.

I am here to introduce him to you, but to make it plain to all the 

w’orld tha t we support his candidacy. He has the unqualified support 

of President Carter and myself fo r the position of Assistant Secretary 

for Indian Affairs in the Department of the Interio r.

Chairman Abourezk. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

The search which you briefly described took a period of several 

months. That was a result of your initial commitments, I think.

Secretary Andrus. Yes.

Chairman Abourezk. I think there is a commitment, probably made 

here today, that you intend to allow’ the Indian people to have a major 

voice in making policy with respect to themselves.

Secretary Andrus. Yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. In the search I think you wrote letters to 

every tribe in the United States.

Secretary Andrus. Yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. I f the information that I received from the 

Interior Department is accurate, according to the responses you received your nominee was not the overwhelming choice of the tribes 

during the straw poll tha t you took with the tribes. Am I accurate in 

that statement?

Secretarv Andrus. You are accurate, Mr. Chairman. As I pointed 

out, initially there were 37 recommendations which were then nar ­

rowed down. No; it was not an initial landslide in favor of one name.

Chairman Abourezk. When you got down to the nub of it : Did you 

submit two names to the White House with a recommendation for Mr. 

Gerard of the two names?

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, I do not recall whether we submitted two names or three names. I can go to my files to answer tha t,
but I do not have them with me. However, our recommendtion was 

Mr. Gerard of the two or three names that we submitted.

Chairman Abourezk. Who were the other two?

Secretary Andrus. Mel Tonasket was one.

Mr. Chairman, so that I do not make a mistake in the record, let me point out tha t Mel Tonasket was one. If that th ird name went over 

there I do not recall who it was. 1 did not anticipate the question and 

I did not bring the file with me. It has been some time. There was a th ird name in the final determination within Interior. 

I frankly do not recall whether it went to the White House or not, 

but I can clarify it and get back to you.

Chairman Abourezk. All I had heard was two names.

Secretary Andrus. Well, Mel Tonasket’s name also was high on that 

list. When you get to that level it is difficult to pick and choose.

Chairman Abourezk. I am trying to get these figures right. Just to 

check with you, the survey showed that Mr. Gerard had the support 

of 14 tribes while Mr. Tonasket had the support of 37 tribes. Is tha t 

accurate ? I am taking this from the news summary from the D epartment of the Interior.

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, it was some time ago. I cannot 

verify those figures, but both men had substantial support. I f it is your 

desire I can go back to our files and get you the exact number.

Chairman Abourezk. We would like to have that for the record. 

Would tha t be a rough estimate of what the figures are like?

Secretary Andrus. I cannot quarrel with them, Senator.

Chairman Abourezk. The selection of somebody to head the Indian 

department in the United States at this particular time, Mr. Secretary, 

comes for the Indian people and perhaps for the Nation itself at one of the most crucial times. There are a number of reasons for that. The Indian people are now just beginning to get their act together 

around the country. As you know, the Indian Bureau and the Govern­ ment as a whole has practiced, for at least a century, the practice of 

divide and rule of the Indian people. The reason for th at is to prevent them from acquiring too much political power. I t is a matter of the 

balance of power between the agencies which are supposed to undertake a stewardship of Indian affairs and the Indians themselves. This administration came into power with kind of a breath of fresh 

air. I think that we contribute a great deal to th at breath of fresh air by announcing that it is time to stop having white people decide what 

was good for Indians and to allow Indians to decide what was good 

for them. I do not think anybody is going to argue about the past abuses of 

the Indian people. W hat we really have to do is not continue to beat tha t drum, but to use it as a backdrop and not as a reason for doing 

the right thing today. I was very excited about the promise of this administration. The 

reason for that is that I see the Indian people in this country as almost totally politically powerless. As a result, they are extremely 

vulnerable to the whims of the Government and to the whims of the 

non-Indian neighbors who live around the reservations who are making consistent attacks on the resources and the land of the Indian 

people.
10

Over the years Congress has cooperated with those desires—over 

many years—opening up Ind ian lands for settlement and for sale.

Today we find that people who once owned the entire Nation are 

almost totally stripped of their land base—a base tha t is extremely 

important now. It is much more important than money or other material things ever were.

As this administration came into being the pronouncements were v

tha t that was going to change. While we may not give the United 

States back to the Indians—and I think everybody understands how 

unrealistic tha t would be—at least we would attempt to stop the erosion of the Indian land base and would try to help Indian people *

restore their dignity so that they can operate on the level that they 

want to operate on.

We were told that eventually the Government would stop the divisive tactics that have been employed to keep the Indian people politically powerless.

I just want to say th at while endorsements are wonderful, I think it 

is the intention of yourself and your nominee for Assistant Secretary 

and of the entire Government establishment which deals with Indians, 

which is really important.

I think that if we are to try to maintain any kind of a superior 

moral position, which I think we have in the United States today, we 

somehow have to make the commitment. Not only the Congress, but 

the administration has to make a commitment tha t we intend to do 

what we believe is right and not what we believe is politically expedient or politically wise at the time.

With that kind of lengthy background, I w inder if you would comment on how you see the role of the new Assistant Secretary in the 

Department of the Inte rior with respect to Indian Affairs?

I intend to ask the same question of Mr. Gerard, of course.

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, let me say that your statement 

prior to the question was, I think, a good analysis of some of the abuses 

in the past. I concur with your comment where you said that it depends 

upon the commitment of the people involved at the policy level in this 

administration. I concur with t hat comment.

Let me repeat, as closely as I can recall, the statements that I made 

durin g the confirmation hearing in this regard. Too many decisions 

were being made in the Department of the Interior without input from 

the representatives of the Indian nations of America. They then were 

put into a defensive posture and found themselves fighting to undo 

a regulation or rule or sometimes a statute that had been imposed upon 

them without any of their input initially.

I said then, and I repeat to you now, that I think it is important 

tha t we elevate the head of the India n Affairs portion of Interio r to a 

full Assistant Secretary so tha t they sit in the policy meeting that we 

have each and every Wednesday morning in my office—comprised of 

the Secretary, the Under Secretary, the Solicitor, and the Assistant *

Secretaries. It is important to do tha t so that the input is at that level 

and we have the opportunity to make the considerations necessary 

with full knowledge of the needs and desires of the Indian nations 

of America.

I see that role changing to a role more of policy than what it has 

been in the past. The former position of commissioner did not have
11

tha t access, frankly. He did not have th at clout or th at visibility. I see the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs running the Bureau of Indian Affairs with the support of his designees and sitting on the policy council of the Departm ent of the Interior, whereby we will then make recommendations to the administration in all areas. It is difficult to separate them when you are dealing with land, water, minerals, and

* others. It is difficult to separate the Indian lands from the non-Indian 

lands. This is where I think increased participation will benefit all Ameri­ cans—not just the Indians, although they will certainly lie benefited.

* Chairman Abourezk. Do you anticipate that the Assistant Secretary will supervise interagency coordination of Indian Affairs in all of the other agencies that have Indian desks—for example, HU D and 

HEW?

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, I had not thought about it tha t 

way. It depends on what definition of the word “supervise” you are referring to. Do you mean to supervise, oversee, and direct? In tha t case, my answer is, “No”. He would not have control over other areas 

within Interior. If you are referring to consultation and knowledge supervision por­ tion of the definition of the word “supervise” I would have to say 

“Yes”. As far as direction in somebody else’s tu rf, the answer is “No’ . He 

has consultation at the policy level to overcome that.

Chairman Abourezk. Have you taken any steps, or do you intend to 

take any steps to have somebody appointed as an overall supervisor of Indian affairs throughout the Government? It is kind of a catch-as- catch-can operation righ t now. Is there anything you intend to do in 

tha t regard ?

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, not until we have achieved the 

confirmation of the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs. Tha t is the person who has to have a strong voice in any move that we would make at Interior. I would not take it upon myself to change what I 

said to the Indian nations. You will help us to select that individual. That individual will be the Assistant Secretary and then he also will speak for you in our 

councils. For me to make that decision or make that movement prior to when he is on board would, I thin k, not be keeping faith with what I told 

him before, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Do you have any plans to perhaps go to 

President Carter to request that someone be named as an overall 

supervisor of Indian affairs Government-wide? We have been having oversight hearings. Just yesterday we had one of a continuing series. We find that other agencies who deal with Indian people—such as HE W and HUD —really are not coordinated at all. They just go off in different directions. There is a great deal o* 

money and time wasted. It is very inefficient.

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, I am familiar with the accusations that have been made. I would really want to consult with my Assistant Secretary for Ind ian Affairs before I would make a flat commitment in tha t regard. However, you are going to find, Mr. Chairman, that with the internal reorganization that is discussed in
12

the American Indian Policy Review Commission’s report and the 

changes that I am sure Mr. Gerard will outline for you here today, 

tha t there will be closer cooperation and more knowledge within the 

Department and therefore the Indian nations.

Maybe we can resolve this. I have no objections to what you are 

suggesting, but I have not formulated a plan to do it as yet.

Chairman Abourezk. Mr. Bartlett, do you have questions for the 

witness? At this time I would like to restrict questions to just Secretary Andrus.

Senator Bartlett. I do not have a question, Mr. Secretary.

I would like to compliment you and the President on—by Executive *

action—creating a position of Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs.

We have tried to do that for the last 4 years. I feel tha t it is very 

important to have an administrative position equal to the other Assistant Secretaries. I feel that this is going to strengthen greatly the 

ability of the leader of Indian affairs and the Secretary to have a good 

program. It is a good approach. It is an opportunity to coordinate 

throughout the other branches of Government an Indian program 

which has not existed before.

Therefore, I compliment you on that. I think that is a big first step.

I understand tha t Mr. Gerard is receptive to the recommendations, 

generally speaking. He is receptive to the recommendations of the 

management study that took place as a part of the review.

I am very pleased with thi s because I think th is is an approach to 

finding solutions which is unique but very effective. It has been with 

various State governments. Governors had undertaken it during the 

late 1960’s and early 1970’s.

Therefore, T am very pleased with what I have been hearing, and 

with your selection of Mr. Gerard. I am very pleased to be here at this 

meeting, and I am looking forward to an opportunity to vote “aye” 

on his confirmation and speeding this up.

I have no questions. I just wanted to make tha t comment.

Secretary Andrus. I tha nk you, Senator.

Chairman Abourezk. Senator Melcher?

Senator Melcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, you mentioned among things the land and minerals 

belonging to Indian tribes. It has been my observation tha t tribes 

vary on what their goal is f or their land or for their minerals. They 

make those decisions within the tribes themselves. It has been my 

observation there is just not a blanket approach by the tribes for, as 

an example, coal development. Each tribe looks at the ir own coal 

resource and makes its own determination within the tribe about what 

they want to do.

I think tha t is a good process. It is the only logical process. You 

mentioned tha t in Idaho there are five reservations and a few more 

in Montana. I think it is clear t hat your purpose, and the purpose of *

the Assistant Secretary, is n ot to attempt a blanket approach to the 

management of land of an indiv idual tribe or the management of their 

minerals tha t they have on the individual tribes. You will want to 

listen to each tribe’s proposal. Is that not correct ? *

Secretary Andrus. Senator, that is correct.
13

Senator Melcher. And to be of help ?

Secretary Andrus. Yes, sir.

Senator Melcher. When we talk about housing, health, and education : Those needs vary too, do they not ? They vary by tribe and also 

by reservation.

Secretary Andrus. Certainly, Senator. Sheer numbers themselves 

cause a difference of need from tribe to tribe and area to area.

Senator Melcher. A tribe may approach any one of these problems 

in a different way, having made their decisions on a tribal level. Then they may ask for help from the Department, even though it may vary in another department in our Federal Government, for instance in the 

House.

Secretary Andrus. Yes, sir.

Senator Melcher. I s it your approach that you will be of assistance 

to those tribes in relating to other branches of the Federal 

Government?

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman and Senators, that is our approach. We have been attempting to carry tha t out in the few short months tha t we are here, but I think the philosophy is even more 

concise than that in tha t the change that we are there to assist them, in the best way we can, with finances and technical su pport after they 

make their self-determination.

Senator Melcher. In this effort, as I understand it, you will revise 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs and its function and coordination or its work with the tribes and its coordination with other Federal agencies. The first step to tha t is the appointment of an Assistant Secretary to 

emphasize and expedite that accomplishment, is it not ?

Secretary Andrus. That is correct.

Senator Melcher. I think th at is a big giant step towards that goal. 

I would hope tha t coordination results within the other agencies— whether it is health, education, or housing—and that having better 

coordination more expeditious service could be performed. I hate to use this term, because it kind of gets overworked, but isn’t this also what people like to call “cost effectiveness” ? That is also a part of the goal—making the money tha t is spent more effective for 

the individual Indian people themselves.

Secretary Andrus. Absolutely.

Senator Melcher. As the architect of that, you are recommending 

Forrest Gerard as the Assistant Secretary of Interior. I repeat again tha t I very much approve of him. I think it is a big step. It is not to be minimized as just a gesture to the native Americans. It is a big 

step forward on their behalf.

Secretary Andrus. Yes, sir, this administration has not attempted 

to describe it in any other manner. When we have discussed the Ameri­ can Indian Policy Review Commission’s report, when Under Secretary Joseph testified before this committee on or about August 1, our public statements have consistently pointed out tha t it is a new direction in that regard. We intend to respect the trust responsibility and the obligations that we have in Inte rior until the Indian nations themselves make a determination that they would like to do something 

else.

Senator Melcher. Than k you, Mr. Secretary.

9 6 -9 0 7 0 - 77 - 2
14

Chairman Abourezk. Mr. Secretary, I just have one more question 

with regard to trust responsibility.

I have not seen the statement, but I understand that Attorney General Griffin Bell made the remark, a day or two ago, that he is coming 

more and more to the feeling th at the Justice Department has a very 

strong conflict of interest with regard to their trust responsibility toward the Indian tribes. I do not know if you saw the statement.

Secretary Andrus. No, sir, I did not.

Chairman Abourezk. I t is out of the Atlanta Constitution.

Attorney General Bell is studying ways to extricate the Justice Department 

from what he sees as a major conflict of interest involving Indian rights cases.

I think he talked about the Passamaquoddy case.

The thru st of the interview with Griffin Bell was that he is being 

told by other people in the administration—and specifically Judge 

Gunter, who was appointed by President Carter, to look into the 

Maine case—that he has a conflict in the Justice Department, and he 

wants Justice to withdraw from the legal representation of Indian 

tribes, although he believes that the Interior Department is the trustee.

I thin k the generally accepted view is th at the Government is the 

trustee and th at all agencies in Government, therefore, fall under that 

responsibility. What is your view of that ?

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, when I respond to a newspaper 

article of another Cabinet level officer of the administration I do it 

with a little bit of trepidation.

Chairman Abourezk. Do not respond to the article. J ust talk about 

the concept.

Secretary Andrus. I concur with what you pointed out. It is the 

Government. The Inte rior Department has been delegated the trus t 

responsibility for the Government, but tha t does not alter who has 

the initial ultimate responsibility. Really it is the Government of the 

United States.

If we talk about a conflict—and I have had 30 seconds to think about 

it here—I can see how Judge Bell would be concerned about himself 

being chief legal counsel for the President of the United States. He 

would have to give the President advice on one hand that the Department would have a problem with on the other hand, but I do not think 

tha t th at would cut across the lines of the entire Justice Department.

I do not think tha t he, himself, as chief legal counsel to the President 

would be in conflict personally, but I would have to say that your 

analysis of what I think our t rus t responsibilities are is very accurate.

Chairman Abourezk. I think that is the generally accepted view.

Now the question arises in this Maine case. Judge Gunter made a 

recommendation that the tribes of Maine either accept whatever it 

was he offered—$25 million and 400,000 acres—or tough luck. They 

would have to go to court and try to win that little amount. We have 

the power to legislate them out of existence.

I know tha t was only a recommendation by Judge Gunter to the 

President. The question therefore arises: What if the President were 

to recommend that to Congress? In my view, th at would be a direct 

violation of the President’s trust responsibility. It is a very difficult 

question. He has to balance the politics of the situation with the people
15

in Maine, and other people who are fearful of the claims, with his 

legal responsibility toward the tribes. I imagine a lot of people in the administration are having a very uncomfortable feeling over this conflict of interest. If that feeling persists—even though I would tend to agree to a change in the legal terminology—and the Justice Department begins to draw back in their

#

defense of Indian trus t rig hts: Do you think it would be advisable to establish something that has been talked about for a number of years here—an Indian Trust Council Authority ? There would be a group of lawyers whose specific responsibility is to defend and prosecute

• India n tru st rights. e

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, I can see the wisdom of tha t if 

we got to the point that you describe. However, I question whether we have arrived at that point. I would point out that Judge Gunter—the retired supreme court justice from the State of Georgia—is not the Attorney General of the United States. We are not into a conflict 

posture there, as I see it. I recognize tha t the Tru st Council Authority, which has been sug­ gested, could become a reality sometime, but until such time as we arrive at the point tha t you outlined hypothetically I do not believe 

it is a situation tha t we would have to speak to.

Chairman Abourezk. Senator Bartlett?

Senator Bartlett. I would just like to say tha t I think this is a 

sticky wicket. T his question has been raised before. I t centers around the problem of the Justice D epartment representing the Government and representing the India n tribe when the litigation is between the India n tribe and the Government. Obviously, there is a conflict of 

interest. I think it has been felt that in many cases the India n tribe has suffered from this conflict. There have been a number of discussions regarding how to properly resolve this. I do not have a definite opinion myself, although I have heard several different alternatives suggested. This is a sticky wicket that has been kicked around a lot. I think it will be discussed further. The situation of the Justice Department being in a conflict-of-interest position is not good and this should be improved. I certainly could make some suggestions on it. It is some­ thing tha t is of interest to the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the In­ terior Department as the real representatives of the Indians of this country. They want to make certain tha t the legal interests of the 

Indians are properly represented. I do not think the Justice Department has in mind doing in the Indians, but I do think their loyalties may be more with the so-called “Government side” than with someone attacking the Government.

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman and Senator, I have recognized 

what you point out very well. I think though tha t in all fairness I would, as Secretary of the Inte rior, have to go to the Indian nations

* and say, “Has that changed in recent years?” I think tha t I would get 

an affirmative. Again, the alternative that the chairman pointed out a moment ago is something th at I am not opposed to. I would like to think that

* we can handle it with our trust responsibilities. Legal representation for the Indian tribes is a pa rt of my trust. It has been delegated to
16

me. I will not walk away from it and I am sure t hat the Assistant 

Secretary designate, seated beside me, can speak for himself in tha t 

regard.

Senator Melcher. Mr. Chairman, I would just cast out the observation t hat the trust responsibility and the tru st status is, af ter all, what 

Congress has said it is. Congress is probably going to be the final 

arbiter of the Maine case anyway.

I do not want to propose a problem, as if it is one that we sit back 

and do nothing about, because in the final analysis the Congress will 

probably be called upon to make the final decision. We have been called 

upon to do this many times before in Indian matters. •

Chairman Abourezk. I might point out, Mr. Secretary, before we 

wrap up your testimony, tha t the Justice Department has in the past 

refused to bring suit in many, many cases referred to the Justice Departm ent by your Department. It happened before you got in and I 

think it is probably still happening. You probably know of cases in 

the immediate past.

In some cases they have dragged their feet for 2 or 3 years making 

it extremely difficult for the Indian people to protect the ir rights even 

if they do eventually come into the case.

Therefore, it is not a new feeling. I think Griffin Bell has exercised 

his tru st responsibility more vigorously than any other Attorney General. He is now beginning to feel qualms about it. I do not think th at 

is necessarily a bad motive on his part. I think he is just feeling uncomfortable. As I know him he is a very frank and honest man. He 

expresses his feelings in public, which is very admirable on his part.

It is good tha t we know about his feelings at this point so that wo 

can take some steps to protect the trust responsibility.

Unless someone else has questions for the Secretary I think we can 

conclude this portion of the testimony.

Secretary Andrus. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for permitting me the very generous amount of time th at you have given me.

With your permission, I would like to remain. I have about 15 minutes 

prio r to another meeting. I would like to listen to Mr. Gerard’s statement and make myself available to you even after I leave today, by 

telephone or letter, for any furthe r information. I appreciate your 

courtesy.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce to you the man you 

have already sworn in. He is a man that we think will do an outstanding job as Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs for the Department 

of In terior—Mr. Forrest Gerard.

Chairm an Abourezk. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

Forrest, welcome to the committee. Do you have an opening statement you would like to make?

STATEMENT OF FORREST J. GERARD, NOMINEE FOR ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY OF INT ERI OR FOR IN DIA N AFF AIR S

Mr. Gerard. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I previously submitted a formal statement to your staff. With your permission I would request th at that be made a part of the record. “

Chairman Abourezk. With out objection.

[The prepared statement o f Forr est J. Gerard follows:]
17

STATEMENT OF FORREST J . GERARD, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF INTERIOR 

FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS, DESIGNATE, BEFORE THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 19 77 .

Mr. Ch airm an and Members o f th e Co mm ittee:

I am ho no re d t h a t P re s id e n t C a rte r and S e c re ta ry An drus ha ve

p la c e d t h e i r co n fi d en ce in me and have no m in at ed me to se rv e as 

A s s is ta n t S e c re ta ry o f th e I n t e r i o r fo r In d ia n A f f a ir s .

I acc ep te d th e nom in at io n f u l l y aw are o f th e im p o rt an t re s p o n s ib i l i t i e s th a t th e A s s is ta n t S e c re ta ry w ill be re q u ir e d to f u l f i l l

on b e h a lf o f In d ia n p eo p le an d th e A d m in is tr a ti o n .

As you a re p ro bably aw are I was born and r a is e d on th e B la c k fe e t

R e se rv ati o n in n o rt h w este rn Mon tana , and I am an e n ro ll e d member

o f t h a t t r i b e .

I b e li e v e my ex p eri en ce in b o th th e l e g i s l a ti v e and e x e c u ti v e 

b ra n ch e s o f go ve rnmen t a s w e ll as my br oa d c o n ta c t w it h In d ia n 

t r i b e s th ro ugh th e y e a rs w ill se rv e me w ell i f co nfi rm ed. I t a ls o 

h as mad e me a c u te ly aw are o f th e un iq ue t r u s t r e la tio n s h ip be tw ee n

th e U nit ed S ta te s Go vernm ent an d In d ia n t r i b e s .

T h is t r u s t r e la tio n s h ip p la c e s a so le mn, le g a l and m ora l o b lig a tio n 

on th e U nit ed S ta te s to p r o te c t v a lu a b le In d ia n la n d s an d n a tu r a l 

re s o u r c e s . I t a ls o p la c e s a r e s p o n s ib ility on th e fe d e r a l govern ­

m en t to a ssu re th a t t r i b a l gov er nm en ts a re al lo w ed to p a r ti c i p a te 

f u l l y in th e d e c is io n s t h a t a f f e c t t h e i r r e s e r v a tio n s .
18

- 2 -

Thes e res pon sib ili tie s cannot be take n lightly. Therefore, if 

confirmed, I wo uld be comm itte d to:

•w

1. strengt heni ng the B ureau's c apa city to c arr y o ut the 

res pon sib ili ty of the trust;

2. stre ngth en tri bal g overnments; and

3. improve serv ice d elivery to the tribes either through direct 

programs by the Bureau or through sel f-d etermination mechanisms 

initiated b y the tribes.

In order to car ry ou t thes e commitm ents I will act as advo cate for 

the Indian peop le, kee pin g in mind always the trust relationship.

For the past 150 years the Bureau of Indi an A ffair s has been the 

agency in the fed eral govern men t cha rge d.with c arrying out the major 

por tion of the tru st res pon sibility to India n tribes. Because of 

this long standin g rol e the Bureau has o fte n bee n criticized for 

its seemin g inabi lit y to carry o ut the trust and pr ogram re sponsibilities to the tribes . Alt hou gh some crit icism is surely warr anted, 

the Bure au has not a lwa ys been able to r esp ond fully to all dem ands 

bec ause of ina deq uat e staffing, stru ctur e and resources.

Rec ently there has been a n increasi ng awar eness on the part of 

Congress and the Adm ini stration that changes m us t be made not o nly 

in the B ureau but in Indi an Af fairs gen era lly so that the needs of 

Indi an pe ople will be bett er served.
19

-3-

This awareness is evidenced by the enactment of Public Law 93-638,

the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act, and

the completion of the study of Indian Affairs by the Policy Review

Commission. Both have underscored the need for a major overhaul

of the Bureau.

In the first instance, P.L. 93-638 added a new dimension to Indian

affairs by institutionalizing the concept of tribes being able to

determine for themselves the priorities on their reservations. In

doing this it also created new roles not only for the Bureau, but

for the tribal governments as well.

The Act made it possible for tribes to exercise, at their option,

direct control and management of a great number of Bureau programs

previously dominated totally by federal officials.

For the Bureau, the Act placed high-level managers in the position

of having to give up control of programs (manpower, money and materia ls),

to the tribes. It also added the responsibility to provide training

and technical assistance to tribes to allow them to assume their new

roles.

Unfortunately, experience has shown that P. L. 93-638 has not been

implemented as smoothly and as effectively as it might have been if

the Bureau's organizational structure had been geared to a rapid

relinquishment of programs. Also it should have been impressed upon
20

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Bur ea u em ploy ees t h a t th e new law re p re s e n ts a p ro c e ss and n o t 

j u s t ano th er pr og ram to be ad ded to th e o r g a n iz a tio n 's lo ng l i s t

|R

o f a c t i v i t i e s .

Secondly , th e Am erican In d ia n P o li c y Revie w Com m is si on 's ma nd ated

*

r e p o r t re p re s e n ts th e m ost e x h au sti v e st u d y o f Am erican In d ia n 

A f f a ir s sin c e th e Merria m R eport was p u b li sh ed in 19 28 . The Comm ission 

Ch air man and i t s me mb ers , th e s t a f f and th e ta s k fo rc e s a re to be

commended fo r t h e i r d e d ic a te d e f f o r t s t h a t r e s u lte d in th e f in a l

r e p o r t to C ongre ss . T h is r e p o rt o f 602 pag es and mo re th an 200 

s e p a ra te re co m m en da tio ns w ill ha ve a pro fo und im pac t on a l l o f In d ia n 

a f f a i r s . Taken to g e th e r th e reco m m en da tio ns sta n d a s a guid e fo r 

u n d e rt a k in g c o n s tr u c tiv e p o lic y i n i t i a t i v e s in t h i s f i e l d .

The ne ed and fo rm at f o r a re o rg a n iz a ti o n o f th e Bur ea u was bro u g h t 

in to sh arp fo cus in th e Bur ea u o f In d ia n A ffa ir s Management St ud y 

do ne fo r th e Co mmi ssion . T hat r e p o rt c a l l s fo r a r a d ic a l r e s tr u c tu r in g 

o f th e Bu reau and r e d e le g a tio n o f a u th o r itie s to th e t r i b a l le v e l.

When t h i s Co mm ittee h eld h e a rin g s on t h a t st u d y J u ly 29 , 1977,

Un de r S e c re ta ry James Jo sep h unders co re d th e A d m in is tr a ti o n 's com mit ­

men t to im prov e th e r o le o f th e Bu reau th ro ugh re o rg a n iz a tio n . He a ls o 

s a id th e Dep artm en t o f th e I n te r io r would use th e Management St ud y as 

a g u id e fo r su ch r e o rg a n iz a tio n .

I w an t to re in f o r c e th e Un de r S e c r e ta r y 's com mitment to use th e 

Management St ud y as a g u id e bec ause th e st u d y su g g e sts t h a t su ch a
21

-5-

reorganization be accomplished through a rational process rather

than in a piecemeal fashion.

1 want to further state that throughout this process the Indian

community will be given every opportunity to fully participate.

The Administration, in statements by both the Secretary and

Under Secretary of the Interior, has clearly demonstrated the

importance it places on a fundamental reform of the Bureau.

We also have heard the House and Senate Appropriations Committees

say there must be meaningful reform of the Bureau. The Indian people,

both individually and collectively, have called for fundamental changes

in the Bureau to make the trust relationship a vibrant and working

force. Therefore, let us accept the proposition that many voices

are calling for a major reorganization of the Bureau of Indian Affairs

but let us also ask ourselves the question, "Reorganization to what

end?"

I believe that if the Bureau is going to assume a long range role

in Indian affairs which will have meaning and substance for those

affected by it, it must stop taking an ad hoc, short-sighted approach

to planning problems facing Indian tribes.

It seems that the Bureau often has operated on a never-ending crisis

syndrome of reacting as the emergency arises. This approach does

nothing to solve the complex problems facing Indian tribes.
22

Consequently, I want to see the Bureau moving toward an organization

that would develop more comprehensive planning processes in order to

achieve both short and long-range goals and objectives.

Mr. Chairman, as a first step in strengthening the administration 

of Indian affairs within the Department of the Interior, Secretary

Andrus announced the creation of a new position — Assistant Secretary

for Indian Affairs. This change of status provides an unparalleled

opportunity for Indians to influence policy at the highest levels of

the Department. The Assistant Secretary will participate more in

policy formulation in the Office of the Secretary and will be more

directly involved with the Office of Management and Budget, and the

Congress. Never before in the long history of Federal-Indian

relations has the head of the Bureau been so strategically placed

within the Executive Branch. The extent to which this new position

serves the best interests of Indian people will depend in part on my

personal and professional abilities to interrelate with other decisionmakers throughout Government. I believe that my varied experience

in the Executive and Legislative Branches of Government will serve

to help me fulfill that role.

In conclusion, my long-range view of the Bureau of indian Affairs is

one of an organization that will be seen by the Indian tribes as an

advocate rather than an adversary; that will serve as a dynamic force
in carrying out the unique trust relationship between Indian

tribes and the United States Government; and that will fulfill

its trustee and programmatic responsibilities to Indians.
24

Mr. Gerard. I would like to offer some summary observations, with 

your permission.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I want to state at the 

outset tha t I am, of course, honored that President Carter and Secretary Andrus have seen fit to place th eir confidence in me and nominate me to this high post in Indian Affairs.

I also want to say that for the first time I now understand how 

countless witnesses felt that I stared at from behind the podium. It 

is a little different feeling, I might add.

I also want to just comment briefly on my fourth grade teacher. I 

vividly recall her because I was not exactly the model student and she 

did not believe in modern educational techniques and was not above 

using the ruler on me occasionally.

In any event, I think enough has been said about my background. 

I do not want to get into tha t. I do want to say, however, that as a result of that background I have a deep appreciation for the trus t relationship between the U.S. Government and Indian tribes.

Simply stated, I believe tha t tha t relation places an obligation on 

the part of the United States to protect valuable Indian lands and 

other natural resources. I think there is an additional responsibility 

to help strengthen tribal government so tha t they can be the mechanism to make priority determinations in the Indian community.

I do not view these responsibilities lightly. If confirmed, I would 

be committed to three basic principles to begin wi th: (1) to strengthen 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs’ capacity to fulfill its trustee role; (2) 

to help the continued strength in tribal government; and (3) the 

area tha t you talked about this morning—to improve service delivery 

to the tribes whether it be through direct Federal programs or through 

self-determination mechanisms initiated at the tribal level.

I believe that what this comes down to basically for an Assistant 

Secretary for Indian Affairs is that while he is a public official—and 

of course he is daily confronted with constraints in that posture—in 

this field he must serve as a strong advocate for the Indian people.

I am convinced tha t with the new framework that Secretary Andrus 

has created within the Department we really have an unparalleled opportunity to deal with Indian policy at a level tha t has never been 

reached before in the history of Indian Affairs.

I would like to get into a little more detail on why I believe this 

to be the case. The Secretary mentioned tha t in the past the Commissioner did not enjoy this kind of relationship at the policy level. F or 

many years—as you know, and the staff is fully aware of this—the 

Commissioners reported to the Secretary through one of the other Assistant Secretaries, so tha t there was always tha t control in between 

them. In this fashion the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs “will 

be on a par with the other decisionmakers who have a direct line to 

the Secretary. There will be a more direct line to the Solicitor. That 

is very important at getting a t many of the legal issues.

I want to talk a little bit about intergovernmental coordination. 

First of all, I think we have to view that within two contexts: A positive and a negative. The positive context is in this reg ard : Prior to 

the 1960’s Indian people and Indian tribes really had about one agency 

they could look to for services. That was to the Bureau of Indian
25

Affairs, although the Indian Health Service had been moved out in 

1955.

As a result of the Nation’s concern for poverty stricken who are depressed, landmark legislation was enacted throughout the 1960’s. This 

created a multitude of new social action programs which became available to citizens in need. Indians, being citizens, qualified for many of 

those programs.

Briefly, what I am saying is that what this has done is to create 

additional resources—financial and otherwise—for th e tribes and In ­

dian people gathered throughout the other departments and agencies.

As I view the mission of the other departments and agencies, it is 

mostly national. However, I would agree with your analysis tha t 

the trust responsibility should be viewed as a government wide 

responsibility.

I think where we run into trouble with the other agencies is t hat 

they think more in terms of their national mission. It is difficult for 

them to focus down and deal with a lot of the unusual characteristics of the Indian field.

I had an experience in the late 1960’s while in the Department of 

HEW . I would like to relate it to the committee. It will only take a 

moment.

You almost begin to believe that interdepartm ental coordination at 

times is a myth. During th at era there was a lot of attention on In dian 

education. One of my associates and I tried to devise an actual planning mechanism. We worked this out on paper. I would be willing to 

resurrect this for the committee’s benefit if you would like to view it.

It would have forced the U.S. Office of Education and the Bureau 

of Indian Affairs education people to sit down and begin some longrange planning to look at the problems and more importantly how 

they would apply their resources to the process.

We thought we had done a wonderful job and discussed it separately with representatives in both the Bureau’s Education Division 

and the U.S. Office of Education. The reward for our efforts was really 

to incur the wrath of both agencies. I point this out because I think what it illustrates is a real issue 

here in our discussion of interdepartm ental coordination. There is a 

lot of jealousy about one’s own turf. Getting back to the situation here of the Assistant Secretary for 

Indian Affairs, I am going to be very candid with your committee and 

point out that I have no magical solution to it. I do, however, have a 

few ideas about how I would like to approach it.

I believe that by operating as an Assistant Secretary i t would give 

one an opportunity to deal with his peers in other departments and to 

begin pointing out some of the specific areas where we might think 

about coordination. Economic development m ight be a good example.

I find it a little difficult to believe that the Bureau cannot discover 

the fact that Economic Development Administration, for example, is 

building a facility on some reservation that they are expected to help 

run in a later year. I have to agree th at th at is an inexcusable situation.

What I would hope is that if one policymaker is speaking to another policymaker it is possible in this new atmosphere that we might 

be in a better position to get our subordinates to begin sitting down 

and planning in some of these specific areas.
26

A second step tha t I would consider to be absolutely crucial would 

be to develop a strong intergovernmental relations component within 

the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Specifically what I would have in mind 

here—if this is possible—would be to try to recruit to head that kind 

of a unit someone with a legal background—a tough, consumer-minded 

person.

If we are going to play a coordinating role within the Bureau, then 

I thin k it is critical that we know more about the statutory base of 

many of the other programs and services in other departments.

The Commission report, which I want to address in a few more 

minutes, does provide what the members of your staff believe is a final 

solution to coordination. That is to create a separate agency, of course, 

and pull a lot of these functions and activities under one department.

In responding to my views on the separate agency concept I think 

that I would have to say t ha t I run hot and cold on it. There are a lot 

of pros and cons, as you have talked about with your staff. I would 

be willing to elaborate on those, if you care to, in th e pursuit of questions here in a few minutes.

The other point that I want to pick up on th at was discussed here 

this morning was the Trust Council Authority concept. I believe you 

were chairman at the time, Senator Abourezk, in the 93d Congress, 

when we held very extensive hearings on tha t proposal—the administration bill, which you recall.

A couple of the concerns I had have to go to the public adm inistration aspects since I am not an attorney. One of the things that bothered 

me considerably during the hearings on th at concept was the fact tha t 

we could never get a very firm commitment out of the administration 

on the extent to which they would be willing to fund that independent 

legal arm for Indian affairs.

You will recall tha t we were given one figure at the hearing, and in 

a followup to our formal request we were given even a lesser figure 

which would have supported a very small number of attorneys.

Assuming that you had tha t kind of a small unit representing 

Indian legal affairs, and the economy drives do occur in government 

and we are faced with a blanket reduction in a pprop riations in staffing, 

a very minimal reduction in budget or staff for that kind of unit 

would be far more devastating, for example, than the Department of 

Interior or the Department of Justice who would be on the other side 

under that circumstance.

From that standpoint I have always been bothered by the Trust 

Counsel Authority.

Also, there was one vital legal question tha t was never really clarified during those hearings. That was whether or not Justice would 

play a continuing role in some of the legal considerations if the Trust 

Counsel Authority was developed.

I would point out though, that in terms of the conflict of interest, 

I found it very interesting tha t in the appro priations process for the 

1978 fiscal year for the Bureau of Indian Affairs the House Committee 

added $500,000 to the Bureau’s budget. This was an addon to provide 

legal representation when tha t is unavailable by the United States. 

There was another amount—I believe $160,000—that was approved 

to fulfill a commitment that had been made by the previous administration in behalf of the northern Cheyenne tribes, Senator Melcher,
27

to deal with some of the conflicts th at they were faced with on the 

coal renegotiation and leases and so on. The interesting p art of th at addon was that the Congress-—both the 

House and the Senate—agreed to treat that situation similar to fire 

suppression. I n other words, because of the inability of the agency to

P

redict when certain actions m ight be filed, both the House and the 

enate committees indicated tha t they would be willing to consider 

addons for that purpose. It would seem to me that short of the Trust Counsel Autho rity being 

set up independently there might be some other alternatives tha t we 

could explore with the Congress and through the administration. I 

am certainly not going to commit the Secretary or the adm inistration 

to any massive appropriations requests. In my short period of time over there, and in talking to a number 

of triba l leaders, they certainly pointed out th at this is one critical area 

where they feel they need help in having some independent or outside 

legal assistance because of internal conflicts either at In terior or at the 

Department of Justice. I think it is important from the broader standpoint to consider a 

couple of dynamics in the field that. I think really focus in on the 

Bureau of Indian Affairs and point out the need for a m ajor reform 

or overhaul tha t everyone seems to agree is in order.

I would point specifically first to the congressional enactment of 

the India n Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act, Public 

Law 93-638. Briefly, that act, in my view, added a new dimension to 

Federal-Indian relations, because it institutionalized the opportunity and right for Indian tribes to set their own priorities to assume the 

control and management of programs previously dominated entirely 

by Federal officials.

In doing so, however, I think the act also implies th at tribes should assume new accountabilities for the management of those programs 

and for the use of Federal funds. Second, what I think tha t act did was to impose upon the high level 

managers the responsibility of relinquishing control of programs— 

men, money, and materials. Th at is the life blood of bureaucracy. 

Bureaucracy being the creature it is, managers usually do not like to 

relinquish control of those items. Wha t I am saying is that I do not believe the act has been implemented as smoothly and effectively as it might have been had the Bureau been structured adequately, had the employees been imbued with 

the understanding that this was optional on the part of the tribes, and 

if—equally importantly—self-determination were viewed as a process 

tha t permeates all of the Bureau’s activities rather than just another 

program to be added to the long list of activities. I would submit that 

tha t is the manner in which it has been established. The second major dynamic tha t I would like to mention is completion of the American Indian Policy Review Commission’s mandated 

study.

I think we would all agree, Senator Abourezk, tha t tha t study and 

the completion of the report represents the most exhaustive overall 

review of Indian Affairs since the Meriam report was published in 

1928. I would personally commend you. as chairman, the commission 

members, your staff, and the hard-working task force members for
28

completing that report in the period of time that was imposed upon 

the Commission. I think it was a monumental undertaking. As you 

know, the report is over 600 pages. There are 200 separate 

recommendations.

I think, taken together, the report and the recommendations stand 

to influence Indian policy nowr

 and for the years ahead.

More specifically, looking, to the management study that has been 

alluded to—I believe your committee held a hearing on that in the 

latter pa rt of July, Under Secretary Joseph testified at that hearing—

I believe that the management study, together with the creation of the 

new Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs post in the Department _

really has set a springboard whereby we might be able to deal a little 

more realistically with a number of the problems tha t we all know 

exist. You have cited a couple this morning.

Under Secretary Joseph committed the Department and the administration very firmly to utilize that management study as a guide in the 

reform efforts and reorganization of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

As the nominee for the post in question, I want to echo my support 

for the use of tha t document in restructuring the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs. I would like to elaborate just a little about why I am prepared to echo his views.

The report suggests the restructuring of the Bureau through a welldefined process rather than by doing it on a piecemeal basis; also the 

manner in which the report Is written—and I believe the manner in 

which the Under Secretary is committed to use it—there will be some 

checks and balances, so to speak. I n other words, there is a willingness 

on his part to follow the report’s recommendation and provide you, the 

committee, with periodic status reports on how we would proceed.

You will recall from the Under Secretary’s statement tha t the Assistant Secretary would play a critical role in the implementation of 

tha t restructuring.

I do want to add, however, that there are a couple of points in the 

report that I would like to be on record as wanting to clarify in the 

future. I am still a little confused on the so-called matrix approach— 

in other words, the belief t hat an employee might be able to report up 

two different lines in an organization.

If confirmed, I would want the opportunity to confer with the 

authors of that report and try to observe some precedents where this 

has been used in the past. I would like to see what kinds of successes or 

failures there have been, whether it be in Government or in private 

industry.

Second, the management study states rather emphatically that if the 

reorganization that they suggest is followed certain stages would 

occur. I would not want to be called up here 2 or 3 years later and 

asked why a? millions of dollars were not saved.

In other words, what I am saying is th at the report is not really too 

clear on how those savings could actually occur. I think tha t in all *

fairness to the commission and the agencies there needs to be fu rther 

clarification in th at regard.

If these kinds of dynamics—Indian self-determination and our 

apparent inability to implement it properly, the American Indian <•

Policy Review Commission’s management study of the Bureau, and 

so forth—are not enough to convince us that the agency charged with
29

ca rryi ng ou t trus t res ponsibi lity shou ld be restructured and reorga n­ ized* I can add a couple of othe r pre ssures th at I th in k are very obvious and before us. . . .

Bo th the House an d Se na te A pp ro pr iatio ns C ommittees in review ­

ing th e Bu rea u s 1978 fiscal ye ar budget handed dow n th e ha rsh est indic tm ent of their respon se for certain kin ds of inform ation th at I 

have witn essed in the 20 y ea rs o r so t hat I have been in Wash ing ton , D.C. T he re is a c lear message in th at indictme nt t h at som eth ing needs 

to be done. Seco nd, we have the co ntinuing criticism an d dema nd from In dian 

* people ind ivi duall y an d collecti vely th at the Bu rea u be i’estru ctu red

and res hap ed to make it more resp onsive to th ei r dem and s and needs.

Hav in g said all of this, I do wa nt to say som eth ing in fairne ss to a lot of employees in the Bu reau of In di an Affairs. Th e manag ement 

stu dy acknowledged this also. I happen to th in k th at there are m any 

well qualified pro fessional an d tech nical people with in th at Bureau. 

It is a lar ge organiz ati on wh ich has close to 14,000 employees tod ay. 

Wh en you get th at nu mb er of emp loyees I think you are goin g to have 

hig hly qualified em ployees, you a re going to have mediocre employees, 

and you are g oin g to prob ab ly h ave employees who do no t c are about 

th ei r job or perf orm anc e. Nonetheless, it is the gr ou p th at does care abo ut do ing a good job 

th at I am very intere sted in at this moment. I think wha t they need 

more th an an ything else is th e kin d of clim ate, lea dersh ip, and dir ection th at would p erm it the m to do th e job the y w ant to do in behalf of 

In di an people. Tha t wou ld be in fulfill me nt of a good portion of the 

trus t r esp onsib ility I submit. Am ong some of the othe r things th at I wou ld wa nt to do quickly 

would be to put the kind of t ea m to gethe r th at would sha re the com­ mi tment th at I have on resh ap ing the Burea u, whi ch wou ld parallel 

the De partm ent. Th e first move th at I have made in th is direction— and I am not 

being p res um ptu ous on being confirmed by this com mittee, but in an y 

eve nt I did w ant to s ta rt m oving in th is direction—was t o select as one 

of my key ass istants a very able person by the name of George Goodwin. I w an t to give George’s bac kgrou nd ju st briefly a nd ask if I might 

have th e o pp ortunity to introdu ce him to the committee. George is of C hip pewa des cent from the St ate of Minneso ta. He is 

cu rre ntly se rving as the a rea d ire ctor in the Minneap olis are a. He came up th ro ug h the ran ks of wh at we call com munity action pro gra ms 

from OEO. He has b ro ug ht a fre sh a ttitude a nd un de rst an ding to th e 

Minneap olis area office. I th in k th at he and I would tend to complement one a nothe r w ith tha t ar ea bac kgroun d. George was educate d in Minneso ta schools, and he ha s an o utsta nd ­

ing rec ord o f performance . He is hig hly resp ecte d in the In dian com- 

- mun ity and is well known, I believe, by mem bers of yo ur own staff.

I would like t o jus t tak e a m oment to in troduce George Goodwin.

Ch airm an Abourezk. George, welcome to the co mmittee.

Mr. Gerard. If I could conc lude, Mr. Ch air ma n, I wou ld say t h is : 

<• My view of the Assistan t Se cretary’s position wou ld be alo ng these

lines. In the past the C ommission ers were respo nsible fo r ru nn ing th e 

Bu reau on a day -to-da y basis. They were the men who fo ug ht the

9 6 -9 0 7 0 - 77 - 3
30

crisis syn drom e. Th ere a re m any of them co nfronting the org aniza tion 

each day .

On the oth er ha nd , th e key policy du rin g th at era , I submit, was 

rea lly made by other people at hig her levels. As I un derst and Secreta ry A nd ru s’ percep tion of th is new position—an d it pa rallels my own 

th in ki ng —is th at the As sis tan t Secre tary would no t be involved so 

much wi th the day-t o-day op era tio ns o f th at Burea u. Th at would be 

left to these key deputies an d the team o f peop le who share his views, 

his philosophies, an d so on.

Th e As sis tan t Se creta ry, on the othe r han d, would opera te at the 

de pa rtm en tal level out o f the office of th e Secre tar y as explaine d briefly 

by Se cretary A ndrus . He w ould be on a p ar w ith th ose oth er A ssistant 

Secre tar ies and the Solicitor. I think he would be more involved in 

form ulating policy initiati ve s. Fo r example, in the are a of inter govern me nta l relations or coord ina tio n, it could be developed hopef ully 

fre e of some of those day -to -day pressures.

In ad dit ion , I th in k t h at t hat person would deal a little more closely, 

pe rhap s, th an the Com mis sion ers have in the pa st with the Office o f 

Ma nag em ent and Bu dget, which is a very critical element in our system 

of G overnment. That p erson w ould also deal a l ittle m ore closely with 

the C ong ress and most c ertain ly the In dian comm unity.

T hat is my g ene ral perce pti on and how I wmuld view m y role i f co nfirm ed by the com mittee a nd th e U .S. Senate. T hat is how I would, fulfill th at kin d of res ponsibility . I have been aro un d Government long 

eno ugh th at I do n ot pr eten d to have any magical solutions. How ever, 

I belie ve I could b rin g to the position an experience t h at covers a sp an 

of alm ost 20 yea rs in the executive and legisla tive branches of Gov ­

ern me nt. I un derst and the intent of some o f t he leg islation which was 

ena cted u p here.

I th in k I would be rem iss if I did no t say th at we are perha ps in 

the most difficult era in In di an affairs th at we have faced since the 

In di an wars. W ha t I am alluding to here is th e fact t hat m any of our 

legal victories, rang ing fro m fishing rig hts to the lan d claims th at 

you discussed today, have created new k inds of pressur es on the In dian 

field. I t hink it is m ore im po rta nt tha n ever tha t we h ave an organizatio n t hat is responsive to these de mands.

I hope th at wh at I could bring to this position, person ally and 

pro fessional ly, would be my un de rst an ding of how the Congress 

works, and hopefully an ab ili ty to visit ind ividual Mem bers a nd their 

staffs. I think it is goin g to be very im po rta nt th at we tr y to g et some 

of these ma jor claims behin d us and settled in a negotiated fash ion 

ra th er than long, acr imoniou s litigation, or ra th er to some ha rdfoug ht leg isla tive effort. I t may be th at some of the m would have to 

be ratified legislatively.

I believe this is whe re we are tod ay. I view it as a mon ume ntal 

cha llen ge.

In closing, I wou ld only ad d th at I suppose th at ego gets in the way 

of some of this as well. It is fo r th at reason th at I was willing to 

acc ept Secre tary And ru s’ o ffer and agree to be his nominee fo r this 

position.

Th an k you, sir.

Ch air man Abourezk. F ir st of all, I hav e kin d of a basic question 

whi ch requ ires a seriou s an swer.
31

Some committees have had tro uble ov er the resp onsiven ess o f officials 

who have been appointed an d who had refuse d to testify at later committee hearings. Th ere fore, th is is a st an da rd question th at I would like 

to ask y ou: W ill you hold yours elf ava ilab le, af te r reas ona ble notice, to ap pe ar 

before th is comm ittee and o th er congressional com mittees to prese nt ad - 

» minist ratio n positions on pe nd ing leg isla tion and to res pond to questions on ma tte rs the com mittee may be in ve stiga tin g a t any given time ?

Mr. Gerard. Yes, sir, I wo uld do th at.

Ch airm an Abourezk. W ou ld you direct yo ur subordi nates to do so 

* as well ?

Mr. G erard. I would do so.

Ch airm an Abourezk. T ha nk you.

I am going to ask you, Fo rres t, a sim ila r question to wh at I asked 

Se cretary An dru s. I hav e no great question abo ut yo ur own tech nical 

competence. I have worked wi th you long enough to know w ha t you are 

cap able of doing . W ha t I am conc erned with more than an ything else is your intentio ns and the int entio ns o f th e entire ad minist ratio n so fa r as the respo nsibilitie s which have l>een give n to you. Ju st as a b it of back gro und 

on th at , the comment you made about an ego satisfacti on to being ap ­ pointed, we a re all huma n an d there is n othing wrong w ith that a t all.

My opinion of p ublic service, which is essentially wh at you are g etting back into now, is th at wh ate ver other motives m igh t be involved 

with it—w hether it is ego satisfacti on or w hatev er—th ose of us who go 

int o public service go with ju st that intention. We are the re to serve 

the pu bli c or o ur constituenc y with ev ery thing we can give them. We 

see ourselves as advocates o r as law yers f or th at p ar ticu la r client.

Rat he r than to t ry to enh ance our own stat ur e or o ur ow n pro gress 

it is much m ore im po rta nt to enhance the pr ogress of the people we have 

chosen to serve. W ith reg ard to the pos t of As sis tan t Secre tar y fo r In dian Affairs: 

To me it is extrem ely im po rta nt th at the int entio ns of th at person, and 

yo urself as nominee, be to tr y to pu t an end to w ha t has been an un ­

fo rtun at e activ ity on the p art of Com missioners of In di an Affairs, of 

are a dir ector s, and of a gre at man y bu rea ucrat s wo rking in In dian 

affairs, th at perha ps i t m ight be b ett er to inte nd —alt ho ug h you know 

it will nev er h appen—to w ork yourse lf ou t of a job ra th er tha n to work 

yo urself int o a p erp etu al job. In my view, the inten tio ns are all -im po rta nt. Th ey are extremely 

im po rta nt. The tech nical expertise th at you migh t br ing to t he job can 

work either for good or fo r bad . I think you prob ab ly recognize th at 

as a fac t.

I t is im po rta nt th at you have in y our own min d, with ou t reservation , 

th at you will use yo ur tec hnica l competence to tr y to restore to the 

In di an people the kin d of di gn ity they once had—the inde pendence 

. an d the sel f reliance—an d to pu t an end to th e divisiv eness sponsored, enc ourage d, a nd un derta ken b y th e Go vernment in its dealin gs with the. 

In di an people.

To repe at w ha t I said to Se creta ry A ndrus, in my view it rea lly is a 

, balanc e of power con dition. Th e bu rea ucrat s de ali ng with In dian

aff airs see a ny increase in powe r of the I nd ian tribes o r In dian p eople 

as a decreas e in their own pow er. Th is is not tru e of a ll employees, of 

course. T here are exceptions to all of these rules.
32

To me, power hungry bureaucrats are an element of public service 

which I find very distasteful. The objective of anybody given the responsibility of stewardship over Indian Affairs should be to try to 

restore to the Indian people tha t dignity by, first of all, restoring some 

semblance of political power so tha t they can live at the level they 

choose to live at.

My question to you, then, is for your comment. Do you see it the 

same way I do, or do you see it in a different way? How' do you see 

it?

Mr. Gerard. Senator, I would have to share your views that for too 

long the tribes and their respective members have been on the lower 

end of the totem pole. I think our real responsibility, now’ th at we do 

have some policies in place tha t permit us to turn more of these functions and activities over to the Indians is to get th at kind of structure 

in place which will allow’ just that.

I understand what you are saying about intentions, because I know 

you have listened to a lot of nominees in the new’ administration. For 

my own part, by going back into public service I recognize that I am 

going in under a slightly different mantle this time. I am going in as a 

political appointee. I am going to say th is : As the political appointee 

I bear no responsibility for what has happened in the past and I am 

not wed to the old system within the Bureau.

I might be able to give you a couple of examples of some of the 

things my deputy-to-be and I have already agreed upon and tha t we 

have sold to the leadership within the Department. I think these examples strike at some of the things we have talked about.

I think we are the first bureau within the Department to do this.

1. We are going to ask for a sweeping fiscal a udit of the Bureau of 

Indian Affairs funds. I n other words, to get at some of these criticisms 

tha t money is used as a reward and punishment device at the area level 

and elsewhere, we have been sitting down w ith the staff of the Assistant Secretary for Planning, Budgeting, and Administration.

We will probably design tha t audit or review within the Dep artment. I think that our budget can bear it. What we would like to do 

is to have that audit undertaken by a prestigious accounting firm outside of the Government, because our commitment here is to have that 

be an independent evaluation. We do not want the accusation to come 

back at us th at “This is the system examining itself again.” Tha t is 

No. 1.

2. We have action surveys in mind which we would put into motion 

immediately. One would be undertaken by a gentleman tha t I believe 

you already know—Mr. Jack Rushing. He is joining the Department 

on an assignment from industry. Mr. Rushing has an outstanding 

background in law, economics, and fiscal affairs.

We would use him to review immediately the Indian Financing Act 

to try to discover how it has been implemented, what the successes are, 

and what the problems are tha t seem to be inherent in it. The whole 

idea here would be to t ry to complete th at study in time to come back 

to you in the next session of this Congress when the guaranteed loan 

provision—I am sure—and the revolving fund—I believe—come up 

for reauthorization. We hope that kind of a review would give us the 

justification for a new amendment and perhaps make that a more 

effective tool for the Ind ian people.

3. In talking about the Indian Self-Determination Act, we are com-
33

mitted to putting a team together to undertake a rapid review of how tha t act is implemented to determine what some of the procedural problems are. We would like to utilize your committee hearing, as well, to see if working together we cannot devise the kind of amend­ ments that would make th at a more effective tool for Indians as well. This is the manner in which I am trying to translate some of my 

intentions to actual reality in changing the system.

Chairman Abourezk. Incidentally, in the audit tha t you contemplate, there is an Indian tribal organization, the National Tribal Chairmen’s Association—which is under a new leadership now is a great improvement over what it had been before. I)o you intend to in­ clude in your audit the use of funds by that organization prior to the 

new leadership tha t came in ? I am specifically referring to moneys tha t the NTCA might have used to finance a lawsuit against the U.S. Congress, in their joint com­ mittee the American Ind ian Policy Review Commission. More specific­ ally a law firm that represented them in that lawsuit—I cannot think of the name of the firm, now—which claimed that it was doing a pro bona, yet there is evidence that there was something like $25,000 in 

fees paid to th at law firm for ostensibly some other purpose. I wonder if you might include th at in your audit as well.

Mr. Gerard. Mr. Chairman, we are not planning to include a review 

of the NTCA contract within the broader audit. However, what we do have in mind is to take a look a t a number of contracts tha t have 

been negotiated out of headquarters. I would say before the committee that I am less than enamored with some of the things tha t are being contracted for out of headquarters. I think that there are legitimate functions tha t could be contracted for from organizations such as NTCA or the National Congress of American Indians. However, given your direct inquiry, we believe tha t we have a responsibility to look at tha t contract and to pursue the specific points tha t have been made. Once that is completed we 

would comply and submit th at to the committee.

Chairman Abourezk. With regard to Public Law 93-638, there 

have been discussions with the Indian Committee staff about a different manner of proceedings. You talked a bit about this. Hardly anyone is very happy with the operation of the India n Self-Determination 

Act. It was designed as one of the major tools to tran sfer power from the Bureau to the Indian tribes. It is not working tha t way. One of the things that has happened is tha t the Bureau is building up its personnel. It is increasing its personnel rather than decreasing it under Public Law’ 93-638. They are using Public Law 93-638 as an excuse for the increase. They are claiming that they have to have addi­ tional people for train ing and additional moneys for the same thing. Have you given any thou ght to any sort of a direct grant situation to change Public Law 93-638 to provide somehow that the bureaucracy itself can be decreased and that the tran sfer of power to the tribes 

can be made along that sort of line ?

Mr. Gerard. Senator Abourezk, my initial view’ of Public Law 93- 

638, when I was a staffer on the committee and had an opp ortunity to work on the legislation, was that the present system would be sort of 

an interim step. In other wrords, it would be the a uthority that w’ould 

open the door for tribes to begin assuming control.
34

The ultimate goal th at I envisioned was a gran t authority. I am 

willing, as the nominee, to entertain tha t kind of proposition. I would 

want to have an opportunity to confer again with your staff and discuss 

specific legislation on it.

The other thing we might think about in that regard would be to 

amend tha t act and to enable some tribes who want to go the grant 

route to use th at procedure. There may be still others who would feel 

more comfortable contracting.

Senator Melcher made the point that all tribes are not the same. 

I have to agree with that. We do have tribes who view the act as outright termination, notwithstanding a disclaimer within the legislation 

itself.

Chairman Abourezk. I just want to ask one other question. There 

is a vote on right now. It is 11:43. By the time we got back here it 

would be 12 noon. W hat I would suggest is th at we reconvene at 2:15 

this afternoon.

Senator Bartlett. Mr. Chairman ?

Chairman Abourezk. Senator Bartlett?

Senator Bartlett. I checked on the. vote too, but on the question of 

reconvening, of course, this was not scheduled. I have a committee 

meeting scheduled on which I am ranking member of the subcommittee. Reconvening at 1 :30 would probably be better for me. I do have 

a question I would like to ask. When are we apt to vote on the 

confirmation ?

Chairman Abourezk. As soon as the hearings are completed.

Senator Bartlett. Are the hearings going to be completed 

expeditiously ?

Chairman Abourezk. I assume so, unless you have some reason to 

hold i t up.

Senator Bartlett. It is in the interest of the committee and in my 

interest th at it be done expeditiously. T hat is a matter of opinion and 

I think that it is important to questions raised. Perhaps later on we 

can discuss this.

Chairman Abourezk. May I ask the Senator from Oklahoma what 

he means by all that?

Senator Bartlett. I just mean that I think we should proceed ahead 

expeditiously. If we do, I think th at will be fine.

Chairman Abourezk. Is there evidence which is obvious to the 

Senator from Oklahoma that the hearings are not proceeding 

expeditiously?

Senator Bartlett. I think the hearings were not scheduled expeditiously. As the chairm an knows, I had other thoughts on the 

scheduling of hearings so that it would be handled before the recess.

Chairman Abourezk. I might respond to tha t by saying that, for 

example, when I suggested tha t we come back in at 2 :15 the distinguished Senator from Oklahoma said he had another committee meeting that he had to go to and could not attend this one. I wonder if 

perhaps he might have thought tha t might have been the case so far 

as scheduling these hearings at all.

In fact, afte r the nomination was forwarded to this committee by 

the Senate. I personally wanted a short period of time in which to 

prepare the hearings. In my view these are extremely important 

hearings. I scheduled the hearings at the first possible date that I had 

open.
35

Se na tor Bartlett. My po int in mentioning th at I ha d a conflict 

was to rai se the issue th at I could not be here this aft erno on , and 

pre sum ably you were go ing to schedule the meeting. When will the 

next me eting be scheduled ?

Ch airm an Abourezk. I t is alre ad y scheduled. I t will be Monday 

mo rning.

Se na tor Bartlett. W ha t tim e ?

Ch air man Abourezk. Te n o’clock.

Se na tor Melcher. It is assu med, Mr. Ch airma n, th at the hearings 

will not be comp leted this after no on .

Ch airm an A bourezk. We cannot reconvene th is aftern oon.

Mr. Gerard. W ith rega rd to th e reo rga niz ation pla n which yo u dis ­

cussed you ind ica ted th at you acc ept the gen era l outline of th at 

reo rganiza tio n and you wa nt to ma ke sure the d eta ils w ill wor k b efor e 

you imple me nt them. I do no t dis agree with that. I th in k th at is fair.

I th ink you well know th at in the past any effo rt at reo rgan iza ­

tion of the Burea u of In dian Af fairs which wou ld have resulted in 

the dim inuti on of power fo r the area dir ectors has res ulted in the 

are a directors using a gr ea t ma ny different means in which to enlist 

trib al opposition to th at pa rtic ul ar reo rga niz ation. Th ey do it, as you 

said, by means of rew ard and punishm ent using Fe de ral money to 

maintain t he ir own political p ositio n.

One witnes s befo re this comm itte e early this ye ar testified th at the 

are a dir ector s, by and larg e, engaged in a t hi ng ca lled “ survival m anagem ent .” That is, not survi val of the In dian people, bu t survi val of 

the are a directors. I could not th in k of a more acc ura te way to say 

it if I trie d fo r 10 years. I th in k th at is extrem ely acc ura te.

Th e pro posed reo rganiza tio n plan suggests th at the are a offices 

sho uld be abolished, and th at would the ref ore abolish the are a directors . Al read y the re has been fu rio us politick ing of the In di an commu nit y by the are a dir ector s to tr y to undercu t and destroy this par ­

tic ular r eorganiza tio n plan.

There has been a suggestion th at the best way to hand le th at politic king is for the Assistan t Se cretary, th e minute h e has th e au thority , 

to sig n an imm ediate or de r anno un cin g th at the are a offices will be 

abolished at a future date— whene ver the tim ing can be phased in 

pro perly .

In th is way the re is no lon ger any arg um ent about wh at might 

hap pen . Every one knows what w ill hap pen .

Do you hav e any pla n or any inten tio n of doing t ha t in an effort to 

pu t a stop to the politick ing th at is going on by the are a directors?

Mr. Gerard. Senator Abourez k, I have no immedia te pl an to sign 

such an or de r if I am confirm ed an d sworn in as the As sis tan t Secretary . I believe that the short comi ngs from the previous reo rgan iza ­

tions hav e been basically eli mi na ted , howe ver, by the kind of commi tment th at you have on the rec ord from the Un de r Se cretary as 

well as the S ecret ary of th e Dep artm en t th at the reorga niz ati on would 

proceed alo ng those lines.

I migh t offer a suggestion here. If we were to announce in adva nce 

th at all 12 of those offices were going to be immedia tely closed we 

mi gh t generate oth er kin ds of po litica l pressure th at wou ld be beyond our control. W ha t I am sp eaking of here very ca nd idly is the 

fact th at some cities and loc alities w here those offices are loc ated m igh t
36

object to th ei r closure and imp ose other kind s of pre ssu res on the 

com mittee as well as the ad minist ratio n to keep the m open.

In discussing this very po int with your staff awhile back one of th e 

ideas th at I tossed out th at migh t be a means of addre ssing thi s 

would be th at rather than to elimi nate the 12 are a offices we could 

leave the m in place. The fund am en tal idea here and goal is to chan ge 

th eir ch arac ter and th ei r functio n so that the y are not an obs truction 

in the del ive ry or assumptio n of control of services on the par t of the 

tribes.

Where we would have c ontin ued flex ibility, th en, w ould be in the estab lishm ent of the service ce nter concept. One could then th in k about 

pu ttin g them in different kin ds of geogra phica l loca tions, because they 

are go ing to be of service to wh ate ver is left of the mid dle level 

manag ement.

Ch airm an Abourezk. W ha t I am talk ing about more specifically is 

the line au thor ity give n to the are a dir ectors which they have at the 

prese nt time. That is all-im po rta nt —whet her t hey are g oin g to ma intain th at line authority o r not. O r wh eth er the y know t hat i t will end, 

and , therefore, end all of the othe r bad stuff th at goes on aro und the 

line au th or ity.

Mr. Gerard. Are you sugg estin g th at the line au thor ity be wi thdraw n immedia tely as well ?

Ch airm an Abourezk. I do not know of an oth er way to do it.

Mr. Gerard. Senator, th at is one of the final outcomes, as I see it, 

of the reo rganiza tion th at is conte mp lated throug h the management 

stu dy as well as some internal docume nts th at I have been reviewing w ith in the De partm ent .

I wou ld be g rea tly bothered by immediately with draw ing th at k ind 

of au thor ity . I do not believe th at we are in a position to predict the 

outcome— wh eth er or not t hose local agencies, 80 or so agencies would 

be in a position to assume th at kin d of add ed res ponsibility . I hope 

th at my rem ark s are no t being construe d as being in defe nse of the 

area offices or the incumbent a rea direc tors.

It ju st seems to me th at th at would be pu lling som eth ing out of 

con tex t in the reo rga niz ation th at is con tem plated more as a process 

ra th er th an a piecem eal kind of fash ion. I think there are oth er 

ways of de ali ng with th at issue: W ith the periodic repo rts th at we 

would subm it to thi s comm itte e; and the str en gth and force of the 

lea dersh ip of the De partm ent as well. I think th at all figu res in here.

I wou ld be greatly bot her ed by havin g to withd raw th at au thority 

imme dia tely.

Ch airm an Abourezk. I wa nt to explore th at a bit fu rthe r, bu t we 

are go ing to have to recess now un til Mond ay m orning.

Mr. G erard. Sur ely.

Ch airm an Abourezk. I wish we could come back this aftern oon, but 

according to the new rule s of the Sen ate we ca nnot do so because the 

Senate w ill be in session.

Th erefore, the committee will be in recess until 10 o’clock Mon day 

mo rning.

I want to explore th at p ar ticu la r poin t in greater deta il.

Mr. Gerard. Very good.

Ch air man Abourezk. The comm ittee will now recess.

[W hereu pon, at 11 :55 a.m., th e com mittee stood in recess to meet 

Monday, Septe mb er 12,1977.]
NOMINATION OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE 

INTERIOR FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS

M ONDAY, SEPTE M B E R 12, 19 77

U.S. Senate,

Select Committee on I ndian Affairs,

Washington, D.G.

The committee met, pursuan t to recess, at 10:02 a.m., in room 6202, 

Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator James Abourezk (chairman 

of the committee) presiding.

Presen t: Senators Abourezk and Bartlett. Staff present: Ernest Stevens, staff director; Alan Parker, chief 

counsel; Karl Funke, counsel; Kathryn H arris T ijerina, counsel; and 

Michael Cox, minority counsel.

Chairman Abourezk. The hearings will come to order.

When we broke off on Fri day we were discussing the beginnings 

of a reorganization plan. I wonder, Mr. Gerard, if you might advise 

this committee what your concept of a reorganization of the Bureau 

might be, and also the time frame.

STATEMENT OF FORREST J. GERARD, NOMINEE FOR ASSISTANT 

SECRETARY OF INTERIO R FOR INDIAN AFFA IRS

Mr. Gerard. Basically, Mr. Chairman, my concept of a reorganization is one in which we endeavored to decentralize as much of the program delivery and decisionmaking, not only from headquarters to 

the area, but righ t to the reservation level itself. I think that is the 

basic thru st of the management study—to get the delivery of programs and decisionmaking at the lowest possible point in the system, 

which would be the reservation level of course.

Chairman Abourezk. Wh at do you anticipate for the area offices 

in tha t kind of a reorganization? You said tha t the decentralization 

ought to go from headquarters to the areas and also to the reservation level.

Mr. Gerard. My view of the area offices is tha t their current functions and performances have to be changed drastically, as I view them. 

They are basically an administrative type of organization today. With 

the concept of seif-determination now being institutionalized it seems 

to me th at train ing and technical assistance and consultation and contrac ting ought to be some of their main functions as opposed to 

stra ight line administration.

Chairman Abourezk. Before we go on I would like to recognize 

Senator Bartlett.

(37)
38

Senator Bartlett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a telegram from Emil Notti, chairman of the board, and 

Byron I. Mallott, president of Alaska Federation of Natives, Inc. I 

would ask that it become a part of the record.

Chairman Abourezk. Without objection.

[The telegram referred to follows.]
39

we ste rn union

Telegram

NFB037 WAC 03 6( 0 3 0 5 ) ( 2 - 0 0 0 4 IF A 253)P D 0 9 /1 0 /7 7 0302

IC S IPMAFUB AHG

217 A 021 24 ML ANCHORAGE ALASKA 24 7 9 -9 51 IP ADT

PMS HONORABLE JAMES ABOUREZK. CHAIRMAN

U S SENATE SELECT COMM ITT EE ON IN DIA N AF FA IRS

331 3 DIRKSEN SENATE O FFIC E BU IL DIN G

WASHDC 20510

THE ALASKA FEDERATIO N OF NA TIV ES , IN C ., A STATEWIDE

ALASKA CORPORATION REPR ESEN TIN G ALASKAS NA TIV E PEOPLE

SUPPORTS THE NO MINA TIO N OF FORREST GERARD AS AS SISTAN T

SECRETARY FOR IN DIA N A F FA IR S . THE AFN BOARD OF DIR ECTORS

IN A SPECIAL MEETING AUGUST 3 1 , 1 9 7 7 , ADOPTED A RESOLU TIO N AUTHORIZING SUCH SU PPOR T. AFN URGES PROMPT

COMMETTEE ACTIO N AND SPEED Y SENATE CONFIRMATION OF

TH IS OUTSTANDING NATIVE AM ER ICAN . THE PO SIT IO N OF

ASSISTANT SECRETARY HAS BEEN VACANT DURING THE C R IT IC A L

FORMATIVE MONTHS OF THE CARTER ADM IN IS TRATI ON, AND THE

AMERICAN INDI ANS INVOLVEMENT IN PO LIC Y MAKING IMPORTANT

TO TH EIR FUTURE HAS BEEN SORELY DI M IN IS HED AS A RE SU LT .

MR GERARD COMES WITH IMPECC ABLE CR ED EN TIALS , AND IT IS

OUR HOPE THAT WH ILE THE COM MITTEE IS ASSURED THAT A S S IS ­

TANT SECRETARY DE SIGN AT E GERARD IS SENSIT IV E AND RESPONSIVE TO TR A D IT IO N A L, CURREN T, AND FUTURE IN DIA N

CONCERNS H IS CO NF IRMA TION NOT BE DELAY ED.

THE ALASKA FEDERATIO N OF N A TIV ES , IN C . , AND IT S MEMBER

IN STIT UTIO NS ARE S A T IS F IE D THAT MR. GERARD WILL BE SE NS IT IV E AND RESPONSIVE TO THE RAPID LY CHANGING NEEDS OF

THE MANY AMERICAN IN D IA N PU BL ICS HE MUST SE RV E. WE

B E LIE VE Wt GERARD TO BE O BJECTIV E , F A IR , AND REASONABLE

WHILE AT THE SAME TIM E BE ING A PERSUASIVE AND STRONG

ADVOCATE FOR AMERICAN IN DIA N S AND THE KIND OF A D M IN IS ­

TRATOR CAPABLE TO MAKING D E C IS IV E CHANGES IN THE

FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY HE WILL AD MINIST ER IF CHANGES ARE .

PERCEIVED AS NECESSA RY.

THE ALASKA FEDERATION OF NA TIVE S RESPECTFULLY REOUESTS

THAT TH IS STATEMENT BE INCLUDED IN THE RECORD OF MR.

GERARDS CONFIRM ATION HEARIN G.

EM IL N O T T I, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD

BYRON I . MA LLOT T, PR ES IDEN T

ALASKA FEDERATIO N OF N A T IV E S , IN C .

55 0 WEST 8TH AVENUE

ANCHORAGE ALASKA 99501
40

Senator Bartlett. Mr. Chairman, T would like to say tha t I hope 

there will be a vote on the nomination at today’s meeting. I have a 

conflict with a natural gas meeting. T have to go to t hat in 1 minute.

I will, however, be available to come back if there is a vote, so I would 

like to be advised if it does come to a vote.

Chairman Abourezk. I understand. I t certainly is a pleasure to have 

you here. I do not know where you can do the most damage—in 

natu ral gas or here. [Laughter.]

Senator Bartlett. I think it is about equal.

Than k you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Abourezk. I have to apologize, Mr. Gerard. I did not *

hear the last part of your response because I was listening to Senator 

Bartlett when he first came in.

Mr. Gerard. In terms of the area offices, Senator Abourezk, mv view 

would be that their current functions must be altered drastically. With 

the concept of self-determination now being institutionalized, or having been institutionalized throu gh Public Law 93-638, it seems to me 

tha t increasingly they must be providing training, technical assistance, 

contracting, consultation, and so on to the tribes as opposed to straightline administration over program s and other functions.

Also, I am personally committed to the concept that is set forth in 

the management study. There should be some kind of a service center 

set up where a lot of the management and administrative functions 

could be grouped together.

Basically, I support the concept th at the area offices must be altered 

drastically.

Chairman Abourezk. Can you tell the committee what your understanding is of the area offices’ line authority at this time under the 

existing organization ?

Mr. Gerard. My understand ing is tha t about 90 percent of the 

authorities that have been delegated to the Commissioner from the 

Secretary now resides with the area offices.

Chairman Abourezk. Tha t is in budgeting and personnel?

Mr. Gerard. That is in budgeting, procurement, personnel, and 

matters such as th at ; yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. What authority would you strip from the 

area directors in such a reorganization ?

Mr. Gerard. I think it would be extremely difficult to think in terms 

of every agency, because I believe there are 80 or 82 separate agency 

offices carryin g out some of those centralized functions.

It seems to me tha t we ought to think about continued consolidation of some of those services. My view is that it could best be carried 

to the regional service centers. I do not think we are going to get a 

personnel officer, for example, at every agency level. I think it would 

be extremely difficult to thin k of that. I do not know that you could 

justify procurement officers at every agency level. It would seem to 

me th at there would be some economy in tryi ng to perform some of •

these things through a consolidated operation.

Chairman Abourezk. My question recurs. Which of the line authority items, specifically with regard to personnel and budgeting, would 

you strip from the area directors in the area offices ? •
41

Mr. Gerard. I would like to see the budget basically formulated right at the reservation level in cooperation w ith the tribes, based on 

the kind of needs tha t they have put together.

Chairman Abourezk. Does tha t mean, then, th at you do favor strip ­

ping budget authority from the area directors?

Mr. Gerard. That is correct. The budget would then flow into head-

• quarters and thence to Congress.

Chairman Abourezk. You would no t leave any options, so f ar as 

budgeting is concerned, with the area directors or the area offices. Is 

that correct?

• Mr. Gerard. That is correct.

Chairman Abourezk. Wha t about personnel hiring? I think the management study contemplates tha t personnel be centralized in the central office, or some central location under the direction of the cen­ tra l office, with the actual hirin g being done on the agency level. That would short circuit or directly go around the power of the area directors and offices to hire.

Mr. Gerard. I have no problem with t ha t other than this. I want to reflect back to a point tha t the Under Secretary made during his 

testimony before your committee on July 29. I guess I, too, am bothered by the remoteness tha t tha t might establish between tha t centralized function and the field itself. Again, I have no problem with the basic authority resting at the area level.

Chairman Abourezk. In other words, you would leave that with 

the area director ?

Mr. Gerard. I am sorry. I meant to say the reservation level.

Chairman Abourezk. Therefore, your answer to tha t question is that you do intend to s trip the area director of tha t particular hiring 

authority in personnel ?

Mr. Gerard. With the qualification tha t I thin k we are going to have to take a very ha rd look at the distance between Washington and many of those local service centers. We are talkin g about 3,000 miles in some instances, and fu rth er if you look at Alaska.

Chairman Abourezk. What problems do you foresee in that ?

Mr. Gerard. Communication.

Chairman Abourezk. In what respect, specifically ?

Mr. Gerard. Just the sheer distances in trying to clarify guidelines 

and policies and so on.

Chairman Abourezk. I f the personnel records were kept in a central location and there was, of course, oversight by the central office on hiring practices, what is the problem with the distance if the agency level could show the need for hiring any kind of personnel ?

Mr. Gerard. Presumably, that would eliminate tha t factor.

Chairman Abourezk. Would that, then, eliminate the qualification 

that you have ?

Mr. Gerard. Not altogether. I guess there are so many details and logistical problems that I would certainly want the opportunity to be able to work with the reorganization task force on this kind of an 

issue.
42

Chairman Abourezk. What does tha t mean, then? Does it mean 

that you do not know y et whether you would accomplish that part 

of the reorganization ?

Mr. Gerard. No; I would commit here today th at we would remove 

the personnel function as one of the main items out of the area setup.

My qualification is that I would want to make certain th at we do not 

create new kinds of problems in terms of the proximity of headquarters to the field. I thin k my main concern would be communication.

That is a basic problem rig ht now.

Chairman Abourezk. As I understand it, you have made an unqualified commitment today to remove the hirin g power from the area <

directors.

Mr. Gerard. Yes.

Chairman Abourezk. What kind of a timetable do you contemplate 

for those two specific portio ns of the reorganization—personnel and 

budget reorganization?

Mr. Gerard. The timetable, as indicated by the U nder Secretary on 

July 29, is the one that I would stand on. If I am confirmed and sworn 

into office, I will then begin expeditiously to organize a task force 

which will handle the reorganization.

I think the Under Secretary also outlined that he would want to 

appoint a special assistant to his staff, preferably someone from the 

private sector with expertise in management and organization who 

would serve as a full-time staff assistant on this matter.

We have no specific timetable worked out in detail, but tha t would 

obviously be one of the first chores th at tha t task force would have to 

undertake once it is organized.

Chairman Abourezk. I do not think it is f air to ask for a specific 

date, but do you think it could be done within 1 year ?

Mr. Gerard. The total reorganization?

Chairman Abourezk. Yes.

Mr. Gerard. For purposes of this committee, I would commit th at 

we would make every effort to try to undertake tha t reorganization 

within 1 year. There are a number of variables tha t I am unprepared 

to talk about today. It may take longer and it may take less time—

I am not certain. However, I would certainly commit th at we would 

make every effort to complete tha t within a period of 1 year.

Chairman Abourezk. A year in this circumstance is an awfully 

long time. That is why I used that as an example.

It would seem to me personally that such a reorganization could be 

accomplished probably within half of tha t time. Can you think of 

any reasons whv it could not be done within a calendar year?

Mr. Gerard. I think a lot of it just gets into delays in bureaucracy— 

gettmg people together. There is going to have to be an awful lot of 

rewriting of functional statements and guidelines once this thing is 

put into place. • a

The additional commitment I would give is tha t once we are able to 

get our task force together and work out a proposed timetable, we 

would be more than willing to come before vour committee either 

formally or informally with the staff and discuss that timetable *

and see if there is room to tighte n up in some areas.
43

Chairman Abourezk. F or example, if you did put your task force 

together, how long would it take you to come back with a timetable 

for consultation with the committees ?

Mr. Gerard. I would think we ought to be able to give you a timetable within a matter of 2 or 3 weeks.

Chairman Abourezk. You talked Friday about an audit of the entire 

- Bureau of Indian Affairs. What would you propose to do with such

an au dit once completed ?

Mr. Gerard. Generally speaking, we would view that as a management tool. If some of the allegations which have been advanced to

> your committee as well as to the Bureau prove to be valid, then we would have to take expeditious administrative action to overcome 

those problems.

Chairman Abourezk. Before we leave tha t area, I would like to 

summarize and ask you whether or not I understand your intentions 

correctly. You are committed to reorganization of the Bureau of Indian Affairs with, as quickly as possible, removal of line authority on budget and personnel from the area directors and the area offices. Is 

tha t correct ?

Mr. Gerard. Th at is correct, Senator, so long as the committee and 

the administration understand th at in using the management study, I think implicitly and explicitly in th at report is the idea that this is a process. We would want to undertake that full reorganization as a process rathe r than to begin pulling some things out of context and 

putting them in place before they were ready. In answer to your question I would say, yes; we would view that as 

one of the end products. The redelegation o f authority, for example, would be one of the end products tha t we all envision by using tha t 

process.

Chairman Abourezk. Do you believe the Self-Determination Act, 

Public Law 93-638, needs radical change because of the complaints 

tha t have been coming in about its operation?

Mr. Gerxrd. I have not had an opportunity to really study in detail 

a number of the complaints, but if the ones th at I have heard are cor­ rect, I think there are possibly some deficiencies in the act. I am wondering also, though, how much of it stems from attitudes on the part of employees, procedural hangups, and things such as that. My own view of the rules and regulations is tha t they are consistent 

with the statute.

Chairman Abourezk. The complaints that I have heard from various 

tribes are that the contracting money, by and large, is not being used for contracting. It is, by and large, being wasted on additional personnel hiring by the Bureau.

Mr. Gerard. I have heard the same complaint, sir.

> Chairm an Abourezk. The personnel levels are building up rather 

than cuttin g down as a result of Public Law 93-638.

Mr. Gerard. May I say another word with respect to that?

Chairman Abourezk. Yes.

, Mr. Gerard. I believe tha t one of the matters we may have overlooked, at least at the staff level, when we were working on the legisla­ tion, was the need for different kind of employees in the Bureau once 

Public Law 93-638 actually became law.
44

Fo r example, I am told tha t in several of the areas they are very 

limited in contract specialists. They do not have people with a specialty 

in tha t area. The whole a ct is predicated on a streamlined contracting 

procedure. It seems like we have almost defeated the purpose of it.

Chairman Abourezk. Would you support or oppose a change in 

Public Law 93-638 which would allow for direct grants to the tribes 

rath er than contracting authority in the Bureau to supervise all of 

the contracting tha t is going on? In other words, there are certain 

areas where we could provide direct grants to the tribes so that they 

could handle it themselves. Would you support tha t concept?

Mr. Gerard. W hat I would like to be able to support. Senator, is an 

amendment which would authorize grant authority and yet leave the 

contracting in place. It is possible that there may He tribes who would 

not want to operate under a strict grant, but would still prefer to use 

the contracting authority.

Chairman Abourezk. Well then, would you support the choice of 

the tribes in that regard ?

Mr. Gerard. Absoultely; it ought to be optional.

Chairman Abourezk. On the question of India n sovereignty: I have 

read some of the interviews that you have given to various press 

people. As I understand your position—and it ought to go on record 

rather than just being a newspaper source—you support the concept 

of sovereignty as, for example, set out in the American Indian Policy 

Review Commission report.

Mr. Gerard. I have not read the report in detail, Senator Abourezk, 

but I support the proposition that tribes do have inherent sovereignty. 

They have the right to govern and to establish their own rules and 

regulations and administer them locally.

As I understand the state of the law, that sovereignty exists and is 

qualified only to the extent tha t it has been altered by treaties or acts 

of Congress.

Yes ; I would like to be on record that I believe in and support tribal 

sovereignty.

Chairman Abourezk. Along the lines of th at definition just given?

Mr. Gerard. Yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Righ t along with tha t is the question of jurisdiction on reservations. In order to enforce that sovereignty that the 

tribes have under the law : Do you believe tha t the Federal Government 

concurrently ought to retain the jurisdiction tha t they have over 

Indian reservations rathe r than State governments?

Mr. Gerard. Are you referring to Public Law 83-280, Senator?

Chairman Abourezk. Yes; it deals with that. I am not, however, 

referring to th at specifically. I am referring to, say, for example, the 

move made in South Dakota to take away Federal and tribal jurisdiction over reservation lands and put it under State jurisdiction. Would 

you oppose that move or would you support th at move ? T hat is probably the best way to ask the question.

Mr. Gerard. Senator, as the advocate for the Indians within the 

Department of the Interior I would strenuously oppose such a move.

Chairman Abourezk. W hat about the question of—first getting into 

Indian sovereignty and Indian territory—Indian tribal jurisdiction 

over non-Indians living w ithin the boundaries of the reservation?
45

Mr. Gerard. I guess tha t can be viewed as perhaps one of the most 

controversial areas in the field today. My understanding of the situa­ tion is tha t the matter is going to be considered by the Supreme Court in the fall session in two cases. I think they both occurred on the Suquamish Reservation in the State of Washington—the Oliphant and 

the Belgarde cases. My position in th at regard would be th at if the Court rules tha t the tribes, do, in fact, possess jurisdiction over non-Indians residing within the exterior boundaries of the reservation, as the public official in charge of Indian affairs, I would undertake every effort to make certain tha t adequate funds and resources were available to permit the 

tribes to implement tha t j urisdiction.

Chairman Abourezk. Do you support or oppose the concept of tribal 

jurisdiction over non-Indians?

Mr. Gerard. Personally, I believe that the tribes possess the inherent power for such jurisdiction. As a practical and legal matter, it appears to me th at the question is going to have to be resolved through these 

court cases.

Chairman Abourezk. Whether or not it is, what is your personal 

view in th at matter ?

Mr. Gerard. My personal view is tha t I would support the tribal 

jurisdiction.

Chairman Abourezk. Over non-Indians ?

Mr. Gerard. Over non-Ind ians; yes, sir.

May I add one other word to that, sir ?

Chairman Abourezk. Yes.

Mr. Gerard. In terms of the opposition tha t stems from the non- Indian community over such a question, one of the points tha t I believe is missed in their arguments is the fact that the 1968 Civil Rights Act, as I understand it, applies to both Indians and non-Indians within the exterior boundaries of the reservation. That, in itself, gives the non-Indians due process and equal protection. The 1968 act did b ring to trib al governments a good many of the constitutional provisions 

tha t all citizens enjoy. I think th at in this highly emotional argument that point seems to 

be lost on many occasions.

Chairman Abourezk. W ith regard to natural resources tha t become 

of tremendous value which are located on Indian lands—I want to refer specifically to the contracts signed between the Northern Chey­ enne Tribe and some energy companies a few years ago—those contracts were approved bv the Bureau of Ind ian Affairs. Since tha t time the tribe has made efforts to try to rescind them, because they felt tha t advantage was taken of them at the time. I am 

sure you are familiar with that. Did you, by any chance, represent any of the tribes while you were 

in civilian life?

Mr. Gerard. No, sir; I did not represent the N orthern Cheyennes.

Chairman Abourezk. Are you familiar with these contracts?

Mr. Gerard. Generally, yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. If confirmed, what would your position be on 

assisting the tribes in rescinding those contracts ?

96 -9 0 7 0 - 77 - 4
46

Mr. Gerard. Fir st of all, I would want to seek advice from legal 

counsel to determine whether or not there were any irregularities or 

whether we violated our own rules and regulations in negotiating 

those original contracts. If there were any such irregularities or violations I would certainly w ant to support their cancellation.

Chairman Abourezk. Even if there were no particular violations 

found. I am told that the contracts—both there and down in the Four 

Corners area of the Navajo Tribe—at the time they were signed provided literally pennies per ton of coal or whatever to the Indian 

tribes, while other landowners, who were selling their coal, w’ere 

getting dollars for the same kind of coal.

On the grounds of just an unconscionable agreement, if you could 

find no other technical means to cancel the contracts, would you support the cancellation of the contracts ? Would you support the cancellation of the contracts on the ground that they were unconscionable if 

you, indeed, found that they were unconscionable ?

Mr. Gerard. If that were the case, Senator, I would undertake every 

effort to either renegotiate them or to cancel them.

Chairman Abourezk. I have to say that the Inte rior Solicitor—the 

new one, Mr. Krulitz—has done an outstanding job since he has taken 

office. He has done an outstanding job of doing what he can to protect 

Indian water rights. Specifically, he has been supporting new’ legislation in the Southwest with which I think you are probably familiar.

Mr. Gerard. Yes.

Chairman Abourezk. It would do something to stop the erosion into 

Indian w’ater rights which has taken place over the past years.

My question to you is: Do you intend to do whatever is in your 

power—and that w’ould include, I guess, statements and whatever 

else you can do—to supp ort the idea th at Indian water rights ought to 

be retained for the Indians if they have them under the law ?

Mr. Gerard. I would do everything within my power. I carry your 

view of the current Solicitor. He has been very supportive of Indian 

water rights.

Chairman Abourezk. With regard to legal opinions th at come from 

the Indian Affairs Division of the Solicitor’s office: Would you support or oppose publication of those opinions in all cases, no matter who 

signs them ?

Mr. Gerard. I believe the policy in the past, Senator Abourezk, has 

been to publish only the opinions designated as “M” opinions. As the 

Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs I would support the publication 

of all opinions, regardless of whether they were signed by the Solicitor 

or an Associate Solicitor.

I am not so sure tha t I would win on tha t argument, but I would 

like to see them a matter of public record; yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. With regard to the question of the Bureau 

of Indian Affairs responsibility to Congress: When you were working 

on the staff of the Indian Affairs Subcommittee we worked together in 

an effort to try to pass some sort of an authorization or statute tha t 

would require the Bureau of Indian Affairs to come before the committees of Congress to authorize it annually or semiannually.

The area directors at tha t time—while we talked about it—had 

gone out and politicked very furiously against tha t concept and con-
47

vinced a number of the tribes, through whatever means, that tha t was 

not in their best interest. In fact, they had called it termination, et 

cetera, et cetera. Until such time as tha t kind of legislation could be enacted with the support of the tribes: Do you support or oppose an annual report from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to be submitted to the committees 

w

of Congress—to this committee and also the Inte rior Committee over in the House—that would break down the operations of the Bureau as far as actual money going to the tribes, actual expenses on a tribe- by-tribe basis, and other sort of detailed pieces of accounting tha t 

f would allow the Congress to see what has been done, what the progress

has been, and what is intended for the future ?

Mr. Gerard. I would not only support such a report, Senator, but I would welcome the opportunity to make that kind of presentation to the committees of Congress. I think it should be an open Bureau.

Chairman Abourezk. To go along with that, what I am contemplating is introducing legislation to require such a report each year not only from the Bureau, bu t also from other agencies of the administra­ tion which deal with Indian affairs. Therefore, for example, the Sec­ retary of HEW would be required to submit his part of the report to the Secretary of Inte rior which would then be given to you, and 

then made a part of the overall administration report. Would you have opposition to tha t kind of a program or would 

you support it?

Mr. Gerard. I would be wholeheartedly in support of it, but I would make a prediction th at you would have greater success in getting a report from the Bureau of In dian Affairs—perhaps from the Indian Health Service also—than some of the largest agencies. I think t hat 

is where you will encounter the difficulties.

Chairman Abourezk. If we put it into law, though, we might have 

better luck.

Mr. Gerard. It would have to be a legislative mandate. Only in this fashion, Senator Abourezk, are we going to be able to begin getting at some of the coordination problems th at we are all interested in.

Chairman Abourezk. Would that kind of a reporting system assist 

in coordination of all of the agencies?

Mr. Gerard. I believe it would, because it would for the first time begin shedding some light on the sources of financial resources: The nature of them, the amounts, and so on and so forth. We need that kind of management inform ation before we can undertake any coherent plan.

Chairman Abourezk. I would like to come back now’ to reorganization. I believe the report of the American Indian Policy Review Com­ mission talked about replacing area offices with technical service centers. The report said fewer locations, which is fine with me, 

personally.

• Would you contemplate setting up a model area service center somewhere in the country just to see how it m ight work? I am tall ing about, a service center that would provide technical assistance <o a multitribal region in engineering, accounting, economics, resource

* development, and other areas of technical assistance that the tribes in tha t area might require. This would be a model program to see 

how it would work.
48

Mr. Gerard. In other words, the model—if I understand your question correctly—would give us some feel or demonstration of what the 

regional service centers would ultimately turn into. Is tha t correct ?

Chairman Abourezk. Th at is correct.

Mr. Gerard. Basically, I have no problem with that approach. I t is 

one th at I would like to be fully in command of, a t least in the office, 

before I would make that firm a commitment. •

Chairman Abourezk. I want to ask now about the possibility of the 

establishment of an Indian career service rather than maintaining 

BIA employees in the civil service. What is your opinion, or what are 

your views on establishing a separate Indian career service where <)

Ind ian preference can be implemented as well as other practices consistent with the BIA stewardship over the Indian tribes?

Mr. Gerard. The argument has been made that the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act mandates the establishment of a career service. I 

have asked counsel to take a look at that question. While they have 

not provided me with a formal legal opinion, they interp ret the statute 

the other way—tha t it does not, in itself, mandate a separate service.

I would like to respond to your question in this fashion: First, I do 

not think tha t I want to ge t in the position where we are arguing between the lawyers whether or not it does or does not. I think what 

those two answers prove to me is t hat the lawyers tend to disagree 

occasionally.

Second, what I would be more concerned with is to make certain 

tha t we are implementing Indian preference properly. I think the 

priceless opportunity tha t we have is through the reorganization process. Rather than trying to decide now whether a 40-year-old recommendation is still relevant would be to address that question a t the 

time we are going through this reorganization process.

If that process points out the need for a separate kind of service, I 

would certainly be fully in support of it. If we could continue to meet 

Ind ian preference under the current system, then I would want to 

foPow that direction.

The important thing here is to make certain that we are implementing Indian preference fully and properly to the benefit of Indian 

people.

Chairman Abourezk. Secretary Andrus has testified on more than 

one occasion that with regard to the establishment of a separate agency 

for Indian affairs, and removing BIA from Interior and pulling all 

of the other Indians desks in to that particular separate agency—for 

example, Indian Health Service, Indian Education, Indian Housing, 

and so on—Secretary Andrus has said that if the Indian tribes wanted 

that he would support it.

With the publication of the report of the American Indian Policy 

Review Commission, tha t recommendation was made. As you know, 

the report was not only a result of the work by various tribes and 

Indian staff members, it was also circulated widely throughout all the 

tribes in the country for comment. That particular concept received 

overwhelming support, which satisfies the requirement by Secretary 

Andrus.

T)o you support the creation of a separate Department of Indian 

Affairs?
49

Mr. Gerard. I would stand on Secretary Andrus’ proposition tha t 

if the tribes do, in fact, support the separate agency concept I certainly would not want to be the public official stand ing in the way of 

tha t desire. I would do everything possible to help them achieve it.

Chairman Abourezk. How would you determine whether or not 

the tribes support it ?

Mr. Gerard. I would like to have the opportunity to review those 

responses. I have not had the privilege of doing so.

Chairman Abourezk. In other words, would you ask them anew or 

would you stand on what they said in the report itself?

Mr. Gerard. Senator, I believe that this question is of such farreaching importance to the Indian community and to the Government 

as well that we would need some kind of a consultation process with 

the tribes, or through the national organizations, to try and measure 

the degree of support t hat is either behind tha t proposition or against 

it.

I think the furthest that the National Congress of American In ­

dians went in their convention a year ago was to recommend tha t 

greater detail be set up on the pros and cons of the question before 

they would take a firm position.

Chairman Abourezk. Wh at specifically would you undertake as a 

consultation program with the tribes. Could you be more specific?

Mr. Gerard. There are several ways one might approach that. We 

have two national organizations—the National Trib al Chairman’s 

Association and the National Congress of American Indians. There 

are a number of regional organizations. The individual tribes, themselves, would all have to be queried.

I would hope that the NCA I convention, to be held the week of the 

19th in Dallas, would bring this question up as one of the major 

questions to consider.

Chairman Abourezk. Have you had a chance yet to consider the 

question of land consolidation by tribes?

Mr. Gerard. I really have not, Senator Abourezk.

Chairman Abourezk. You have not?

Mr. Gerard. No, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Ha ve you had a chance to consider the problems of the divided heirship situation tha t goes on with regard to 

trust allotments?

Mr. Gerard. Both professionally and personally, Senator. I have 

an undivided interest in a 40-acre allotment. I receive the grand 

total-----

Chairman Abourezk. What kind of an undivided interest ?

Mr. Gerard. I receive a grand total of $2.38 each year. [Laughter.]

Chairman Abourezk. What would a fraction of th at be?

Mr. Gerard. I do not know; there must be 40 or 50 of us.

Chairman Abourezk. One-fortieth or one-fiftieth?

Mr. Gerard. Something in that neighborhood.

Chairman Abourezk. Well then, you have just stated the problem. 

[Laughter.]

Mr. Gerard. I am fully aware of that.

Chairm an Abourezk. Can you state the solution? [Laughter.]
50

Mr. Gerard. A number of years ago the old Indian Affairs Subcommittee under Inte rior and Insular Affairs tried a broad, sweeping 

bill tha t ran into a great deal of difficulty.

Subsequently, individual tribes have come in for authority to deal 

with the heirship problem. I would want to give this a high priority, 

because in my travels around the country—partic ularly in the Midwest and the Northwest—trib al leaders have repeatedly pointed out— •

and it is no secret to you or the staff—tha t so long as the land is in 

an heirship status it cannot be used for the benefit of the tribes or the 

individuals.

I would hope tha t together we could begin working out some kind (

of a legislative proposal to deal with tha t issue. I have no general 

or specific solution today, other than a willingness to give a commitment to give it some p riority in my administration if confirmed.

Chairman Abourezk. With the advent of new litigation concerning land claims of prim arily the east coast, because of the 1799 incident, there has been a great deal of controversy over what the Government should do vis-a-vis the Indian tribes and what they should not 

do.

President Carter appointed Judge Gunter of Georgia specifically 

to look at the Maine case and to try to mediate a solution. It turned 

put tha t Judge Gunter was not a mediator, but either a judge or an 

advocate. I am not sure how he finally came out of that. It sounded 

more like advocacy to me when he said that the Maine tribes should 

either accept the amount he set out or they could forget about it.

President Carter has not publicly forwarded tha t recommendation 

of Judge Gunter’s to the Congress for a solution. Whatever his reasons were for not forwarding it, he said in any event that it was a 

just and fair solution at the time that it was announced. He did not, 

however, go beyond that.

My personal belief is that had President Carter forwarded that 

solution to Congress it would have been a violation of his trus t responsibility to the tribes as President. The administration as a whole 

does have a trust responsibility. Secretary Andrus the other day reenunciated that and reaffirmed that concept.

Do you agree with tha t concept, as we discussed it the other day, 

or do you disagree with it ?

Mr. Gerard. I agree with the Secretary’s concept; yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Do you believe that if President Carter recommends something tha t goes against the wishes of the tribes—as for 

example in the Maine case—he would be in violation of his trust 

responsibility ?

Mr. Gerard. I am not so sure that I am prepared legally to make that 

kind of a definitive answer to the point, Senator Abourezk. I would 

certainly want to be able to review' it in light of w’hat we consider those 

responsibilities to be and in light of the specific case at hand.

Chairman Abourezk. Let me just follow up on that. *

Do you intend to press to the limit of your ability and authority the 

trusteed stewardship you have as Assistant Secretary to the Indian 

people if you are confirmed ?

Mr. Gerard. I have made that commitment to the Indian people •

before a number of forums. I view’ tha t as my first priority; yes, sir.
Chairman Abourezk. And you renew the commitment here for the

Mr. Gerard. I would like to renew it for the record today.

Chairman Abourezk. So f ar as lands, water, and n atural resouices, are concerned, and other tru st responsibilities you m ight have for the 

tribes and India n people ? Mr. Gerard. In all of its ramifications; yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. We have a number of questions tha t some of the tribes have asked us to ask at this hearing. Some of them are extremely long. What I would like to do is to give them to \ou and 

you can respond to them in writing.

Mr. Gerard. I would be happy to do so and will send the responses 

just as quickly as possible.

Chairman Abourezk. Ju st from looking at it, I thin k you are capable of doing it in a week. The committee would like your responses back 

in a week.

Mr. Gerard. We will make every effort.

Chairman Abourezk. You have been working part time m the Bureau. Do you know if any assistance has been given to the Pas- samaquoddy or Penobscot tribes in Maine? Have they been given any Federal assistance ? They are not recognized tribes, but they have requested assistance. Are you familiar with that?

Mr. Gerard. I know th at there have been several meetings on that 

question, Senator, but I do not know the specific answer. I do recall, however, tha t both the House and the Senate Approp ria­ tions Committees did add funds to the Bureau’s budget for tha t p ur­ pose. There is no question in my mind that they are federally recog­ nized. I would commit to make those services available to them just as 

quickly as possible.

Chairman Abourezk. Do you know whether the Office of Manage­ ment and Budget has directed the Bureau of Indian Affairs to coor­ dinate Ind ian activities in Maine with the State of Maine?

Mr. Gerard. I am not fa miliar with any directive.

Chairman Abourezk. The questions th at you do not know the re­ sponses to here will just be added to the list of questions to be answered 

in writing.

Mr. Gerard. All righ t; I will try and clarify that.

Chairman Abourezk. Counsel has a couple of questions to ask of 

you.

Mr. Gerard. Fine.

Mr. Parker. Mr. Gerard, I would like to return to the question of consultation with the Indian tribes, and specifically consultation on 

the m atter of an independent agency. The committee feels tha t the tribal support for that concept is already on the record. However, I understand that you, newly assum­ ing office, would naturally prefer to engage in consultation firsthand with the tribal leadership. I wonder if you would support a process of 

joint consultation ? On the question of an independent agency there are only a limited number of alternatives. We could sit down with your staff and identify those alternatives and agree upon a process of requesting tribal views in response to the range of alternatives, with a response date certain.
52

At any given time this committee and your staff would have formally 

consulted with all of the Indian tribes in the country regarding this 

very significant question. One of the alternatives, of course, would be no support for the 

proposal.

Mr. Gerard. Generally, I have no problems with tha t approach.

I would like to point out again for the record here th at the Secretary, •

the Under Secretary, and I have given the committee a firm commitment tha t we are going to give high priority to the reorganization of 

the Bureau.

The Senator again today pressed for a timetable, and was given <

assurance that that will get underway. I would not want to move on 

the question you brought up until we feel tha t we are comfortable in 

having gotten our act together, or our plan, so to speak, for the 

reorganization.

Mr. P arker. Then you do not feel tha t both initiatives could be taken 

simultaneously ?

Mr. Gerard. I would not want to undertake it simultaneously. In the 

short period of time th at I have served as a consultant to the Secretary 

on Indian matters, my assessment is tha t if confirmed I am going to 

have to be operating on several fronts in t hat Bureau. I would like to 

take some of these important questions in sequence.

I think it is a question, though, tha t we ought to try to address in 

the first 6 months, say, of my tenure as the Assistant Secretary.

Mr. P arker. Thank you.

Mr. Funke. Mr. Gerard, in regard to the Ind ian career service, 

section 12 of the Indian Reorganization Act establishes the Indian 

preference law and it also states that India ns appointed through the 

Indian career service will be appointed without regard to the civil 

service laws. As you know, the Indian Reorganization Act was p rimarily drafted by the Department of Interior, by Joh n Collier and 

Felix Cohen.

They stated that the law did intend for the career service to be 

developed and that the separate service appointments table which was 

being used was not the method which they wanted to use in training 

Indians and to get Indians under the Indian career service.

I was just wondering if you would like to respond to tha t and tell 

us what plan you might have for investigating the possibility of an 

Indian career service at this time.

Mr. Gerard. Mr. Funke, I have no specific plan other than the point 

I tried to make just a few minutes ago. I would prefe r to address th at 

question during the reorganization of the Bureau.

Mr. Funke. With regard to the current Bureau of Indian Affairs 

budget process: As you know the band analysis is on the incremental 

budget theory. What plans do you have for a comprehensive needs 

assessment in terms of social needs, economic development needs, natural resource needs of those tribes, and developing a comprehensive *

tribal budget system which would move up through the Department of 

Interior, into OMB, and into the committees of Congress, based on 

actual needs rather than the inequitable incremental theory?

Mr. Gerard. I think that until such time as there is a bonafide plan- "

ning process staffed with persons who understand planning and who
53

understand the need to wed a planning process to budget process, that 

whether or not I have any personal plans right now, we are never going 

to see that kind of production. If I may take another moment, I think th e only agency I am aware of in the Ind ian field today th at has done any kind of credible work in planning is the Indian H ealth Service. Admittedly, they are working with a single function.—health. It has many ramifications. Ihey started the planning process a number of years ago tha t is set up on a 5-year cycle. The last year then becomes the first year of the budget

submission. , i • That is not the case in the Bureau today. A t least, that is my analysis in the brief review tha t I have been able to make of the budget process. The band analysis was a sincere effort on the part of the Bureau people to try to have greater input into the budget process. I do not 

think it goes far enough. I think we have got to do better.

Chairman Abourezk. The band analysis, in fact, only accounts for 

a very small proportion of the trib e’s total budget going toward the 

tribes. Isn’t that correct ?

Mr. Gerard. I think it is somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 

50 percent today, Senator Abourezk.

Chairman Abourezk. Of the entire budget ?

Mr. Gerard. Of the entire budget. I would be happy to give you a 

breakdown on that for the record.

Chairman Abourezk. I would like to see it. I had some breakdowns 

that have shown that it is really a very small part of it. W hat appears to be some sort, of a great Indian input gimmick turns out to be a gim­ mick pure and simple. The tribes do not really get much of a chance to state what they do need for operations durin g the year under the 

band analysis. That is why I questioned you a little bit at length on the budget­ ing system insofar as the area directors are concerned, and as far as allowing th e tribes to have a great voice in what their budgets will be within budgetary restrictions in government, of course. You introduced George Goodwin. Have you picked any other staff 

people th at you intend to hire ?

Mr. Gerard. I have not made the final selections. Senator Abourezk, but d uring my interview process—and I am certain that other candi­ dates set forth the same terms and conditions—I made it clear to the Secretary tha t if I were to be the choice I would want the right to select some of my own staff people and to put my own team together.

Chairman Abourezk. You have not done so yet ?

Mr. Gerard. No, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. Regarding the reorganization task force: Do 

you plan to bring anybody onto that task force who has had something 

to do with the management study itself?

Mr. Gerard. My preference would be to follow the Under Secre­ tary’s suggestion that we would seek an independent person from the private sector with a strong background in management organization 

and with no idealogical ties to the Indian community.

Chairman Abourezk. Or to the bureaucracy.

Mr. Gerard. Or to the bureaucracy. I would buy tha t as well.
54

Chairman Abourezk. We have exhausted all of our questions except 

for the written ones. Before we go on to the next witness, I just want to say t hat I haAe sat throu gh a number of confirmation hearings for Commissioners of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You have sat right up here at the same time a t a number of those. Probably more than I have over the years. Each time, each of those Commissioners—as nominees—promised grea t things for the Indian community. Each time they have gone back 

to business as usual. I would hope with the new direction reportedly promised by the Secretary of Interior, the entire administration, and in fact the com­ mitments you yourself have made not only here today, but in public in other places, th at you intend not to conduct business as usual. I hope that you mean tha t and that you will do your utmost to show the Indian people who have, I think, been psychologically repressed for so long tha t even the faintest glimmer of hope will do something for them psychologically. I would hope t hat you would not conduct busi­ ness as usual, but tha t you would show the Indian community that there are going to be some drastic changes made that would restore 

their lives to somewhere near normal.

Mr. Gerard. May I make a final statement, sir ?

Chairman Abourezk. Yes.

Mr. Gerard. I can only reecho what you have just stated. I would 

like to say in conclusion th at we do have the climate both within the Department, I believe, and with some of the work that your own American Indian Policy Review Commission has set forth for the record. I refer specifically again to the management study. There are internal documents within the Department tha t I have been reviewing which parallel very closely, I might add, many of the findings of that management study and really point in the same direction for 

reorganization. I have made a commitment to the committee and to the Indian com­ munity. I will endeavor to do the best possible job to create the kind of change that I think the India n people have asked for for too many 

years.

Chairman Abourezk. Mr. Gerard, tha t is all we have at this time 

in the way of questions. O f course, you are subject to recall during this confirmation process, and you are committeed to coming to the 

committee at a later time afte r the confirmation. I want to thank you very much for your appearance and for your 

testimony.

Mr. Gerard. Thank you. I will plan to remain throughout the balance of this hearing. [Subsequent to the hearing, the following material was received 

from the Department of the In terio r:]
55

IN REPLY REFER TO:

United States Department of the Interior

BUREAU OF INDIA N AFFAIRS 

WA SHINGTON, DC . 20242

SEP 2 3 1977

3

Honorable James Abourezk 

Chairman, Select Committee 

on Indian Affairs 

U.S. Senate

Washington, D.C. 20510 

Dear Senator Abourezk:

The following letter is in response to questions asked by 

the C o m m -l i- t- p e during the confirmation hearings of Mr. Forrest 

Gerard to be Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs held on 

September 9 and 12, 1977 in Washington, D.C. Additional 

questions asked by the Committee in writing will be answered 

in the very near future.

Secretary Cecil Andrus was asked in page 20 for the hearings 

held on September 9, 1977 to furnish for the record the procedure used in the selection of Mr. Gerard to be nominated 

for the position of Assistant Secretary. Secretary Andrus's 

reply is enclosed.

Mr. Gerard was asked on September 12, 1977, page 30 of the 

hearings, to furnish for the record answers to the following 

questions concerning the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot Tribes.

1. The Maine Tribes are in need of immediate assistance

through the Bureau; on December 23, 1975, Court decision 

concerning the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot was decided 

in their favor. What assistance to date have they 

received?

The Court decision of December 23, 1975 did not say 

that the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot Tribes were eligible 

for all Bureau of Indian Affairs services but did say 

that the Secretary had a trust relationship with the 

Passamaquoddy Trite w ith respect to protection of 

lands covered by the Nonintercourse Act. The Solicitor's 

Office examined this limited ruling, and in a July 8,

1976 memorandum advised that the Secretary had the 

authority to make BIA services available to the two
56

Page 2 - Honorable James Abourezk

tribes and that certain trust services would be required.

To provide these services a supplemental appropriation 

for FY 1977 and a Budget Amendment for FY 1978 was r equested to provide those services required by law and 

other services within reasonable funding levels. Since 

no funds were appropriated for FY 1977, no services have 

been provided.

«

2. What barriers exist causing the apparent hands off 

attitude of the Burea u toward these Tribes?

<>

We are not aware of any "hands off" attitude. Since

May of 1976 when the Commissioner of Indian Affairs 

determined that the programs of the Bureau would be 

made available to the Passamaquoddy Tribes there has 

been continuing dialogue, contact and planning with 

the State and the Tribes.

Planning and preparations of the FY 1977 Supplemental 

and FY 1978 Budget Amendment were processes that consumed much time and since OMB did not allow funds for 

FY 1977 momentum naturally subsided. However, planning 

with the Tribes for FY 19/8 commencing October 1 continues.

3. Will the Bureau request the total service for these 

Tribes in FY 1978 and in FY 1979?

The request of the Bureau and the Department for funds 

to provide services to these Tribes in FY 1978 is outlined in the answer to question 4.

As a result of funds being appropriated for these 

Tribes in FY 1978 funds will be requested i n the 

Bureau's budget to continue these services in FY 1979 

and in succeeding ye ar s.

4. Why did not the Bure au submit appropriations requests 

for adequate.services? (for Maine Indians in FY 1977,

1978 and 1979?).

The original request (March 1977) of the Bureau and 

the Department to OMB for services to the Passamaquoddy 

and Penobscot Tribes was as follows:

Supplemental FY 1977 $1,579,000

Budget Amend FY 1978 $4,507,000

FY 1979 None
Page 3 - Honorable James Abourezk

The original OMB allowance was as follows:

FY 1977 $ 234,000

FY 1978 $ 916,000

FY 1979 Not applicable

The Bureau and the Department appealed the items 

deleted and/or reduced by OMB and requested the restora 

tion of funds in their entirety.

The final allowance from OMB that went to Congress in 

May 1977 eliminated the previous allowance for FY 1977 

but retained the $961,000 for FY 1978. The Congress 

appropriated $870,000 to provide services to these 

tribes in FY 1978.

5.

6.

We have information that OMB has directed the Bureau to 

coordinate Indian activities with State? For what 

purpose?

OMB has directed the Bureau not to obligate any funds 

until it has met w ith State and Tribal officials to 

coordinate and pla n the specific uses of these funds. 

The State of Maine continues to appropriate funds for 

services to these tribes and it would only be logical 

to coordinate these activities to ensure no duplication 

of funding.

If any state discriminates against the Indians within 

that state, because of their lawful land claims or for 

any other reasons, w hat policy would you pursue to 

rectify the situation and protect their rights as the 

trustee?

In the event of incidents leading to apparent discri ­

minatio n of Indians, regardless of any reason or any 

source, our policy is to immediately refer the matter 

to the Indian Division of Civil Rights in the Department of Justice.

Mr. Gerard was asked on September 12, 1977 on page 34 for 

a breakdown of the Bureau of Indian Affairs budget, banded 

and unbanded, and the percentage that was banded in 1978.

In the Fiscal Year 1978, Federal funds in the amount of 

$862.3 million was appropriated to the Burea u of Indian 

Affairs. Of this amount, $412.2 million was banded. This 

figure amounts to 47.8% of the Federal funds appropriated 

to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. A breakdown by activity 

is as follows:
Page 4 - Ho norab le Jam es Aboure zk

ACTIVITY

3100 (E du ca tio n)

3200 (I ndia n S erv ic es)

3300 (Economic Dev elopment 

& Manpower Prog rams)

3400 (N at ur al Res ou rces 

Dev elop ment)

3500 (T ru st R e s p o n s ib il it ie s )

3600 (G en eral Management & 

F a c ilitie s O per at io n)

TOTAL: O pe ra tion s o f

In dia n Pro gra ms

230 (Road C onst ru cti on)

100 0, 1100, 1200 (I r r ig a tio n , 

F a c ility C o n st ru cti o n & 

MA & I)

T ru st , Cl aim s, e tc . fu nds 

and re c e ip ts

TOTAL: Bureau of In d ia n 

A ff a ir s

BANDED UNBANDED TOTAL

16 1, 42 2. 2 79,5 52.4 24 0,99 4.6

69 ,9 40 .3 97 ,8 44.3 16 7,81 4.6

47 ,0 52 .0 25 ,5 01.2 72 ,553 .2

28 ,1 85 .2 31 ,0 60. 6 59 ,2 45 .8

19 ,6 92 .3 11,4 88.8 31 ,1 81 .1

86 ,1 05 .8 24,5 83.9 11 0,68 9.7

41 2,44 7. 8 27 0, 03 1. 2 68 2, 47 9. 0

- 72 ,2 54 .0 72 ,2 54 .0

- 61,9 36.0 61 ,9 36 .0

- 43 5, 63 0. 0 43 5,63 0. 0

1,,2 52 ,2 99 .0

S in cere ly ,

Ra lph R. R ee se r 

D ir e c to r, C ongre ss io nal and 

L e g is la ti v e A ffa ir s

Enc lo su re
59

SEP 1 5 1977

The follo wing Info rmation supplements my testimony of September 9, 1977 

before the Select Committee on Ind ian A ff a ir s, United States Senate, 

confirm ation of Forrest Gerard to be Assis tant Secretary fo r Indian 

A ff a ir s.

In February, I asked over 250 Ind ian tribes fo r th e ir recommendatio ns to be Assis tant Sec retary fo r Indian A ff a ir s. Through th is 

process, recommendations were received fo r 44 possible candidates 

fo r the po sitio n. Mr. Tonasket received 37 recommendations from 

Ind ian tr ib es; Forrest Gerard received 14. Through a review of 

the qualif ic ations of a ll 44 of these in divid uals, seven candidates 

were selected fo r fu rther conside ration who were intervie wed by 

the Under Secretary and ipyself. Two names were sent to the White 

House as being acceptable. My recommendation was fo r Forrest 

Gerard to be selected and the President agreed. As I stated 

prev ious ly, Mr. Gerard has the un qu alified support o f President 

Ca rter and myself. / \
60

United States Department of the Interior

OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20240

SEP 2 8 1977 Honorable Ja mes Ab ou re zk " *

Chairman, Select Com mittee on

Indian Affairs

United States Sena te

Washington, D.C. 20510

Dear Mr. Chairman:

Ibis letter is in response t o writt en qu est ion s presented to me b y the

Committee dur ing my conf irmation h earings on Septem ber 9, and 12, 1977.

This ma te ri a t com pletes the information reques ted by t he Com mittee

during those hear ings.

Enclosed as Exhi bit A ar e que stions a nd ans wers concern ing Bure au Structure

(Bureau of Indian Affairs) and Tri bal Affairs.

Encl osed as E xhi bit B a re r esp ons es pre par ed in ans wer to questions pre par ed

for the Comm itt ee by Dr. Irv ing Han dli n con cer nin g S erv ice s for Handicapped

Indian Youth.

Since rel y yo urs

Assist ant S ecr eta ry for

Indian Affairs

Enclosures

»
61

U n it ed Sta tes D e p a rt m e n t of th e In te ri o r

OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20240

$EP?8 1977

\

Bo aera bla Ja arn Aboams k

Ch aiman , S ala ot Ona altto a aa

J Tartlaa A ff a ir s

united S ta te s Son ata

Wa shingt on, D.C. 20510

t e la la t t e r la la rs apn eas to w rit te n goast la n a pa aaan ted to aa by te a

rn— l t r u da ri ng "7 ao n fi ra a ti o a ha ar la qa aa Sapteadtar 9 , and 12 , 1» 77 .

t e la n o ta r ia l aaapla te a te a la fo c a a tl o a zaqo aa ted by te a OoaadLttea

da ri ng te a m baa ri ag a.

Baola aad aa K ab lb lt A a te qa aa tina a and aaaaara onaoar ain g Ba ma a B tr ao te ra

(Borom o f In di an A ff air s) and T ri bal A ffa ir s .

■a al a and a s te h lM t B a m ra ag oa asa pr ep ar ed la answer to qaaa ti n a a prep ar ed

fo r te a O na al ttoa by Dr. Ir vin g Handl la anssoa rnle g Sa rv iaaa fo r Bandioas>ed

In dian te e th .

W Forrest J. Gerard

T ed lm A ff a ir s

t

9 6-9 07 0 - 7 7 - 5
EX HIB IT A

BDREAU STRUCTURE

1 . DO YOU FORSEE ANY DE CL INE IN THE STRUCTURE OF THE BUREAU AN D/O R THE

NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVO LVE D? I S NOT THE STRUCTURE A HAN DICAP TO FULL IN DIAN

TRIBA L SE LF-DETER MI NA TIO N?

a . T he b a s i c B IA o r g a n i z a t i o n a l s t r u c t u r e h a s n o t b e e n d e t e r m in e d a t

t h i s t i m e , h o w e v e r w i t h t h e i n c r e a s e i n T r i b a l p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n S e l f -

D e t e r m i n a t io n , I w o u ld a n t i c i p a t e t h e B u r e a u t o h a v e a d i m i n i s h i n g r o l e

a s w e d e c e n t r a l i z e t h e p r o g r a m d e l i v e r y .

2 . WHAT PROGRAMS OF THE BUREAU ARE UNDER JO IN T FUND ING SI M PLIF IC ATIO N?

WHY CANNOT ALL PROGRAMS OF THE BUREAU BE PUT TOGETHER WITH OTHER FEDERAL

AGENCIES FOR MAXIMUM TRIB AL BE NE FI T?

a . G r a n t s m a d e t o t r i b a l o r g a n i z a t i o n s u n d e r t h e I n d i a n S e l f -

D e t e r m i n a t io n and E d u c a t io n A s s i s t a n c e A c t , P .L . 9 3 - 6 3 8 , h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d

u n d e r t h e J o i n t F u n d in g S i m p l i f i c a t i o n A c t . F ro m a n e x a m in a t i o n o f t h e

J o i n t F u n d in g S i m p l i f i c a t i o n A c t and i t s im p le m e n t in g g u i d e l i n e s i t a p p e a r s

t h a t t h e A c t w a s i n t e n d e d t o c o v e r g r a n t p r o g r a m s r a t h e r t h a n t h o s e i m p le ­

m e n te d t h r o u g h c o n t r a c t s . N o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h i s t h e B u r e a u 's P h o e n ix A r e a

O f f i c e i s c u r r e n t l y a n a l y z i n g t h e J o i n t F u n d in g S i m p l i f i c a t i o n A c t , i t s

im p le m e n t in g g u i d e l i n e s a n d t h e B u r e a u 's c o n t r a c t i n g p r o c e s s t o d e t e r m in e

i f i t i s f e a s i b l e t o i n c l u d e " P .L . 9 3 - 6 3 8 " c o n t r a c t s u n d e r t h e J o i n t

F u n d in g S i m p l i f i c a t i o n A c t .

3 . WHAT HAPPENS TO THE HIG H -C O ST , LOW-OUTPUT EFFORTS IN BUREAU PERSONNEL

MANAGEMENT SYSTEM S? HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF MAN-HOURS WERE PUT INTO

PERSONNEL TR AINING SESSIO N S ON EVALUATIO N, COMMUN ICATION S, MANAGEMENT BY

OBJ ECTIV ES, E TC .? HOW I S ANY OF IT BEING USED? WHY WAS N'T IT USED IN

THE PLACQtENT EVALUATION OF PEOP LE IN RECENT RE OR GA NIZA TION S, AS IN

ALBUQUERQUE?

a . T he B u r e a u h a s j u s t c o m p le t e d t h e f i r s t p h a s e o f i t s c o m m u n ic a t io n s

w o r k s h o p s d e s i g n a t e d b y t h e C o d e , H R - 1 2 - , w h ic h i s a p a r t o f t h e M a n a g em e n t A c t i o n P la n t o im p r o v e P e r s o n n e l M a n a g em en t i n t h e B u r e a u . T h e s e

c o m m u n ic a t io n s w o r k s h o p s w e r e c o n d u c t e d d u r in g t h e f i r s t h a l f o f FY 1 9 7 7

i n a l l a r e a s and t h e C e n t r a l O f f i c e . A t o t a l o f 3 5 2 m a n -h o u r s w e r e

e x p e n d e d d u r in g e a c h w o r k s h o p f o r a t o t a l o f 4 , 2 2 4 m a n - h o u r s .

T he p u r p o s e f o r t h e C o m m u n ic a t io n s W o rk sh o p w a s t o im p r o v e c o m m u n ic a t io n s

b e t w e e n B u r e a u m a n a g e r s a n d p e r s o n n e l s p e c i a l i s t s . T h e e n d r e s u l t o f t h i s

t y p e o f o r i e n t a t i o n i s t o a s s u r e a s m o o th f u n c t i o n i n g o r g a n i s a t i o n a b l e t o

c a r r y o u t t h e m i s s i o n a n d o b j e c t i v e s o f m a n a g e sM n t.

, 4 . WHAT I S THE POLIC Y OF THE BUREAU TOWARD NO N- IN DI AN EMPL OYEES? ARE

•• THEY TO BE SYS TEM ATICALLY DISCOURAGED FRCM PROMOTION? ARE THEY TO BE

THE TARGET OF CR IP PLI NG R IF PRO CEDUR ES, FACED WITH IN DI AN PREFERENCE IN

REPRCMOTION AND SELE CT ION RIG HT S? ARE THERE TO BE WRITTEN REPORTS TO

AFFECTED R IF Q1PLOY EES PERIOD ICAL LY TO LET THEM KNOW FOR WHICH PO SITI ONS

THEY WERE CONSID ERE D AND WHY THEY WERE NOT SEL ECT ED?
63

a . Em plo yee s, whe ther In d ia n or no n-I nd ia n, ar e no t and w i ll no t be

disco ur ag ed from comp eting fo r prom oti on . S e le c ti o n s w i l l co nti nu e to

be made o f the be st q u a li fi e d employee a v a il a b le w hi le sta y in g w it h in

th e le g a l req uir em ents o f In d ia n P re fe re n ce . The re ar e many ve ry

ded ic at ed and ca pa bl e no n-I nd ia n empl oyees in th e Bureau and i t would

be a d is -s e r v ic e to bo th to o s t r a c iz e th e no n- In dia n em plo yee.

5 . WHAT WILL REPLACE AREA OF FIC ES AS THE MIDDLE LAYER OF THE PRESENT

THREE LAYERED LINE ORGANIZATION?

a . There co uld p o ssib ly be Re gi on al S eriv ce Ce nt er s with management and a d m in is tr ati ve fu n c ti o n s grouped to g e th e r .

6 . IF THERE IS TO BE A TWO LAYERED ORGANIZATION, HOW DO YOU PROPOSE

TO BE EFFE CTIVE IN SUPE RVISING AGENCY SUPERINTENDENTS, SERVIC E CENTER

SUPE RVISORS, WASHINGTON OF FIC E DIRECT ORS, INDEPENDENT OFFICES LIK E

IRRIGATION PRO JECT S, OFF RESERVATION SCHOOLS, ET C. ? IS THIS NOT AN

UNWORKABLE SPAN OF CONTROL?

a . Ag ain th is would be worked ou t a ft e r e v a lu a ti n g th e R eo rg an iz at io n

Task F o r ce 's recom mend ation on d e c e n tr a li z in g th e mi dd le le v e l o f f i c e s .

7. WHAT WILL BE THE ROLE OF SERVIC E CENTERS? HOW MANY EMPLOYEES WILL BE

REQUIRED? WHAT KINDS OF SK IL LS WILL BE REQUIRED AT THESE CENTERS?

a . Th is would be based ag ain upon th e recom mend ation o f th e ta sk

fo r c e . Pre sumably i t would re q u ir e pro vi di ng te c h n ic a l a s s is ta n c e

in acc ou n ti n g, economic re so u rc es develop men t and such ot her a ssis ta n c e

as th e T ri bes would d e s ir e .

8 . WHERE WILL SERVI CE CENTERS BE LOCATED?

a . Pres umably s e r v ic e c e n te rs would be lo ca te d where th ey co ul d

be most re sp on si ve .

9 . HOW WILL THEY BE ST AF FE D?.. .B Y REASSIGIMENT OF CURRENT EMPLOYEES?

BY RI F? BY NEW HIRES?

a . Ag ain th is -would depend on th e recom mend ation s made by th e

re o rga n iz a ti o n ta sk fo rce team as to lo c a tio n , and ty pe o f s e r v ic e s to be

d e li v e r e d .

10. WHAT WILL BE THE EFFECT ON THE MORALE OF BUREAU EMPLOYEES OF THE

CREATION OF SERVICE CENTERS AND THE ELIMINATION OF AREA OF FICE S? MORALE

IS ALREADY AT AN ALL TIME LOW.

11 . WILL THE MESCALERO CASE DECIS ION APPLY IN R IF S , SO THAT INDIAN

PREFERENCE DOES NOT APPLY IN R IF SITUA TIONS ?

12. WHAT HAS THE C IV IL SERVIC E COMMISSION DETERMINED IN CASE S LIKE T H I S .. .

DOES INDIAN PREFERENCE APPLY OR NOT?

- 2 - V.
64

13. IF INDIAN PREFERENCE DOES NOT APPLY IN RIF , WHAT WILL BE THE EFFECT

OF THIS REORGANIZATION OF THE RECENTLY APPOINTED INDIAN AREA DIRECTORS,

ASSISTANT AREA DIRECTORS, AREA BRANCH CHIEFS AND SUPERINTENDENTS?

a . The Under S e cr eta ry and I hav e co m m itt ed th e Bu reau t o a ta sk

f o r c e st u d y t o d et er m in e th e b e s t co u rse o f a c tio n fo r im pro vi ng ou r

d e liv e r y o f s e r v ic e s to th e In d ia n p e o p le . T h is w i l l in a l l p r o b a b ili ty

le ad to some ty p e o f r e o r g a n iz a tio n o f th e Bur ea u. In most c a s e s , major

r e o r g a n iz a tio n s in any o r g a n iz a tio n w i l l te nd t o a f f e c t th e m ora le o f th e

em plo yee s in v o lv e d . Ho we ver, im ple m en ting an y r e o r g a n iz a tio n th a t d ev elo p s

w i l l be ac co m plish ed w it h th e le a s t d is r u p tio n p o s s ib le to our em plo yees .

A r e o r g a n iz a tio n in F edera l Go vernme nt u s u a ll y le a d s to im ple m en ta ti on

o f RIF p ro ced u res. The M esc a le ro c a s e d e c is io n and s p e c if i c p r o v is io n s

fo r RIF pro ce dure s in th e Bur eau a re b ein g re ex am in ed in v ie w o f th e more

r e c e n t co u rt d e c is io n s a f f e c t i n g In d ia n p r e fe r e n c e . U n til su ch ti m e as

a RIF i s im plem en ted i t i s n o t p o s s ib le to det er m in e th e a f f e c t on any

em p lo yee, In dia n or n o n -I n d ia n .

1 4 . WHAT WILL THIS DO TO INDIAN TRIBES' IDEAS OF SELF-DETERMINATION?

a . We do n o t a n t ic ip a t e an y ch an ge in ou r c o n s u lt a t iv e r e la t io n s h ip

w it h a l l t r ib e s as i t r e la t e s t o ou r s e le c t io n p ro cess fo r em plo ye es in

c e r t a in ke y p o s it io n s .

1 5 . WHAT WILL BE THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF THE MASS MOVEMENT OF EMPLOYEES?

a . The ec on om ic im pac t o f ma ss movement o f em plo ye es who tr a n s fe r

be tw ee n s ta tio n s , w i l l in c r e a s e th e BIA bud ge t fo r moving and te m po ra ry

d u ty per diem in c id e n ta l to th e t r a n s f e r .

I f th e BIA. p a y r o ll a t a lo c a t io n ia re d u ced , th e lo c a l econom y w ill lo s t

th e money sp en t lo c a l l y . T h is im pac t w i l l be s l i g h t in c i t i e s wh ere th e

BIA i s a sm a ll p art o f th e t o t a l ec on om y, but i t co u ld be s ig n if ic a n t

i f a b ig re d u cti o n occu rs in a v i l l a g e wh ere th e BIA i s a m aj or em plo yer .

1 6 . WHAT LONG RANGE IMPACT WILL THESE CHANGES HAVE ON THE BUREAU'S ROLE,

ON ITS SIZ E, ON ITS EXISTENCE AND ON ITS EFFECTIVENESS?

a . My g o a l i s t o s tr e n g th e n th e r o le o f th e F ed era l Gover nm ent

a s t r u s t e e fo r In dia n r ig h t s and re so u r c e s w h il e b ein g more re sp o n siv e

t o t r i b a l and in d iv id u a l n e e d s. To t h is end we w i l l make o r g a n iz a tio n a l

ch a n g es. The r o le w i l l n o t be ch an ge d but stren g th en ed . In in s t it u t in g

th e s e ch an ge s we w i l l be lo o k in g to in c r e a s e th e o p e r a tio n a l r o le o f

t r i b e s , i f th ey ao ch o o se, and th e r e sh ou ld be a corresp on d in g red u cti o n

in th e s i z e o f th e B ure au's em pl oy m en t. We b e lie v e th a t i t w i l l pr ov e

■ ore e f f e c t i v e i f t r ib e s ca n mak e th e d e c is io n s on le v e l and me tho d

o f program o p e r a tio n s .

1 7 . THE ALBUQUERQUE AREA OFFICE HAS JUST GONE THROUGH A REORGANIZATION

THAT HAS BUREAU EMPLOYEES IN LIMBO. MANY PROGRAMS AND SERVICES ARE

SUFFERING. THE NEW AREA DIRECTOR (APPOINTED JUST LAST YEAR UNDER THE

PREVIOUS A1MINISTRAT10N) HAS NOW RESIGNED TO PURSUE A Ph .D . WHAT

- 3 -
65

OPPORTUNITIES ARE THERE NOW FOR AP PO INTI NG OR DE TA ILING A QU AL IF IE D

PERSON INTO THAT PO SIT IO N FOR THE PURP OSE OF EF FE CT IN G RE GION AL IZA TION

AND THE ESTA BLISHMENT OF IND IAN SE R V IC E CEN TER S? THE BUREAU HAS A

QUALI FI ED PERSON WHO I S PRE SEN TLY SE RV IN G AS SOUTHWEST REG ION AL COORDINATOR

OUT OF ALBUQ UERQUE , WHO IS CAPABLE OF IN IT IA T IN G AND CAR RYING OUT TH IS

TRAN SFOR MAT ION. WHAT WIL L YOUR AG ENC Y DO TO CA PI TA LI ZE ON TH IS OPPOR TUNITY

TO BE GI N IMMEDIATE LY YOUR CCMMI1MENT TO IMPLEMENT RE GI ON AL IZAT IO N?

a . As m en tio ne d a b o v e , th e r e w i l l be a ta s k f o r c e a s s ig n e d t o

stu d y th e Bu re au o r g a n iz a tio n and make re co m m en da tion s f o r an y ch a n g es

n e c e s s a r y . I t wo uld be pr em at ur e a t t h i s ti m e to s t a r t a fr ag m en te d

r e o r g a n iz a t io n w it h o u t b e n e f i t o f th e r e s u l t s o f t h i s s t u d y .

0 TR IBAL AFF AI RS

1 . WHAT SYS TEM ATI C EFFO RTS HAS THE BUREAU MADE OR WIL L MAKE FOR

ENCOURAGEMENT OF TOTAL TR IBA L PL AN NI NG , COV ERIN G AL L NEEDS AND AL L RESO URCE S

NOT JU ST THOSE OF THE BUREAU?

a . The Bu re au su p p o r ts t r i b a l co m pre hen si ve p la n n in g e f f o r t s .

A B IA p la n n in g su p p ort g r o u p , h e a d q u a r te r e d in B i l l i n g s i s a v a i l a b l e a s are

P .L . 93 -6 38 g r a n ts fo r t r i b a l p la n n in g in th e a r e a s o f t r i b a l go ve rn m en t

c a p a c i t y b u i l d i n g .

2 . ARE YOU AWARE OF THE ZU NI PLAN "TOWARD Z U N I, 19 85 ?" (A COPY BE ING

SEN T TO YOUR OF FI CE UNDER SEPA RAT E COVER )

3 . DO YOU SEE ANY VALUE IN TH IS PLAN AS A COMPREHEN SIVE COMMUNITY

DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM, PRO VID ING AN EX PR ES SI ON OF COMMUNICTY NE ED S, CLEAR

L IN ES OF COOPE RATION BETWEEN SE RVIC E A G EN CI ES , DEFIN ED CAREER OP PO RTUN ITIES

FOR IN DI AN YOUTH , AND INTEGRATED DIR EC TI ON TO AL L RELEVANT PEOPLE AND

IN ST IT UT IO NS?

4 . DO YOU SE E ANY VALUE IN PROMOTING TH IS PLAN AS AN EXAMPLE OR MODEL

FOR ENCO URAG ING OTHER TRIBAL GROUPS TO ORGANIZ E TH EIR THOUGHTS AND PLA NS?

a . We a re no t aw are a t t h i s ti m e o f th e Z u n i p la n . We w i l l r e v ie w i t

f o r comment upo n r e c e i v i n g a co p y o f th e p la n .

5 . UNDER CURRENT 638 PH ILO SO PH Y, THERE IS GREAT CONTRACT DE TA IL REQU IRED

OF TR IB ES TO FU LFI LL PROGRAM REQU IREM ENTS OF THE PU BL IC MONEY THEY U SE.

* WHAT PROGRAM AGREEMENTS WIL L THE BUREAU BE REQUIRED TO MAKE WITH THE TR IB ES

IN FU L FIL L IN G TH EIR SE RV IC E R E S P O N S IB IL IT IE S FOR USE OF THESE SAME PU BL IC

MO NIE S?

a . The q u e s ti o n i s u n c le a r . How ev er , an i n t e r p r e t a t i o n i s made o f

th e q u e s tio n t h a t :

S in c e T r ib e s mu st a cc o u n t fo r m on ie s un de r P .L . 93 -6 38 C o n t r a c t s , how w i l l

th e Bur ea u o f In d ia n A f f a i r s a cc o u n t f o r pro gra m m on ies n o t c o n tr a c te d or

fo r u n c o n t r a c t ib le fu n c ti o n s ?

if

- 4 -
F i n a n c i a l M anag em ent S t a t u s r e p o r t s a r e a v a i l a b l e on r e q u e s t t o t h e t r i b e s 

o n r e q u e s t . T h e se c o m p u te r p r i n t o u t s a r e q u i t e v o lu m in o u s a n d s e n t t o t h e 

A g en cy l e v e l .

T he BIA h a s no p l a n s t o e n t e r i n t o w r i t t e n a g re e m e n t w ith t r i b e s a s s u g g e s te d 

i n t h e q u e s t i o n .

6 . WHAT SYSTEMATIC EVALUATION PROCEDURES WILL LOCAL INDIAN TR IB ES HAVE 

IN REVIEWING BUREAU PROGRAMS AT ALL LEVELS OF OPERATIONS?

a . C o n g re s s a p p r o p r i a t e d $ 1 ,0 0 0 ,0 0 0 f o r t h e d e v e lo p m e n t a n d t e s t i n g o f 

a l t e r n a t i v e m e th o d s f o r t r i b e s t o e v a l u a t e BI A a n d o t h e r f e d e r a l p r o g ra m s .

The e v a l u a t i o n and t e s t i n g f o r m a t i s c u r r e n t l y b e in g d e v e lo p e d a n d w i l l be 

a v a i l a b l e f o r u s e i n 1 9 7 8 .

7 . EVERY YEAR EACH BUREAU PROGRAM MUST SU M IT AN ANNUAL REPORT OF OPERATIONS. 

WHICH BUREAU ACTI VIT IE S HAVE MADE PROVISION FOR TRIBA L REVIEW AND ENDORSEMENT 

OF THESE REPORTS? WHY CA N'T ALL PROGRAMS BE MADE TO PROVIDE FOR SUCH REVIEW 

AND ENDORSEMENT?

a . U nder t h e Ban d A n a l y s i s s y s te m , e a c h t r i b e h a s a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o 

a n n u a l l y r e v ie w a n d /o r c h a n g e b u d g e t an d p ro g ra m i t e m s .

8 . WHAT PARAMETERS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR TR IBES TO USE IN EVALUATING 

AND SUPPORTING THE QUALITY OF BUREAU PERSONNEL SE RVI CE S, THE EMPATHY AND 

THE EFFECT IVE NESS OF FOLLOW-THROUGH OF INDIAN AND NON-IND IAN EMPLOYEES?

a . U nder P .L . 9 3 - 6 3 8 , t r i b e s a r e e n t i t l e d t o r e v ie w a n d a n a ly z e 

BIA an d o t h e r f e d e r a l p r o g r a m s . C e r t a i n l y i n r e v i e w i n g t h e p r o g r a m s , 

t r i b e s w o u ld w a n t t o lo o k a t t h e q u a l i t y o f s e r v i c e s p e rf o r m e d b y BIA 

p e r s o n n e l b o th I n d ia n an d n o n - I n d i a n .
67

EXHIBIT B

SERVICES FOR HANDICAPPED INDIAN YOUTH: 

RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS PREPARED BY DR. IRVING HANDLIN 

DATED AUGUST 1 5 , 197 7

1 . Wh at i s th e t o t a l numb er o f In d ia n s tu d e n ts now a tt e n d in g e le m e n ta ry 

and se co n d ary sc h o o ls in t h i s c o u n tr y , b o th on and o f f - r e s e r v a t i o n s .

2 0 1 ,5 7 1 in th e ag e g ro u p o f 5 - 1 8 (FY 7 6 ) (I n c lu d e s o n ly In d ia n s 

s e rv e d by th e BIA)

2 . What p e rc e n ta g e s o f th e s e s tu d e n t s a r e in p u b l i c , p r i v a t e , p a r o c h ia l 

an d B ur ea u sc h o o ls ?

72% P u b li c S ch oo ls 

23% B ur ea u S ch oo ls 

5% O th er S ch oo ls

3 . What i s th e t o t a l e le m en ta ry an d sec o n d a ry sc h o o l p o p u la ti o n , on an d 

o f f th e r e s e r v a ti o n i n B ur ea u b o a rd in g sc h o o ls an d i n bo rd er to w n 

d o r m it o r ie s ?

2 9 ,2 5 5 (p lu s an a d d it io n a l 1 6 ,3 5 4 i n d ay s c h o o ls ) (FY 7 6 )

4 . How many o f th e s e Bu re au s tu d e n t s a r e h an d ic ap p ed , a cc o rd in g t o d e f i n i t i o n s 

and g u id e li n e s is su e d by HEW in J u n e , 1 9 7 7 ?

S in c e th e s e beca me a v a i la b le o n ly in J u n e , 1 9 7 7 , BIA s tu d e n t s ha ve n o t be en 

a s s e s s e d by th o s e s ta n d a r d s . Ho wev er , th e FY 7 7 BIA Ann ua l Pr og ra m P la n f o r 

E d u c a ti o n o f th e Han di ca pp ed (w hi ch i s a p p li c a b le f o r th e 1 9 7 7 - 7 8 sc h o o l 

y e a r ) o u t l i n e s p ro c e d u re s f o r a s s e s s in g s tu d e n ts a cc o rd in g t o th e s e g u id e ­

l i n e s . T h is in fo rm a ti o n sh o u ld b e a v a i la b le by th e en d o f th e c u r r e n t sc ho ol 

y e a r .

5 . Have y o u , in f a c t , co m pl et ed a n a t i o n a l co m pr eh en si ve i d e n t i f i c a t i o n su rv e y 

o f e n r o ll e d In d ia n c h il d r e n who a r e h a n d ic ap p e d , a s re q u ir e d by law?

T h is i s ta k in g p la c e d u ri n g th e 1 9 7 7 - 7 8 sc h o o l y e a r . I t i s e x p e c te d t o 

b e co m pl et ed by May, 1 9 7 8 .

6 . How many In d ia n c h il d r e n who a r e han di ca pped a r e n o t now e n r o ll e d i n B ur ea u 

o r o th e r s c h o o ls , b o th on an d o f f t h e r e s e r v a ti o n s ?

T h is d a ta i s n o t a v a i l a b l e . I t i s a n ti c i p a t e d t h a t su ch in fo r m a ti o n w i l l 

r e s u l t from th e co m pr eh en si ve han d ic ap p ed c h i l d - f i n d e f f o r t w hi ch w i l l ta k e 

p la c e d u ri n g th e 1 9 7 7 - 7 8 sc h o o l y e a r .
Have you completed a na tio n a l comprehensive id e n tif ic a tio n and assessment 

o f handicapped In dia n c h ild re n on and o ff re serv ations, as re qu ire d by law?

Th is is ta king plac e during the 1977-78 school ye ar. Hie p o lic y and pr ocedures are co ntaine d in the FY 77 BIA Annual Program Plan fo r Education 

o f the Handicapped, wh ich is applic able fo r the 1977-78 school ye ar.

Does the Bureau have pe rson ne l in it s bo ardin g scho ols and dorm itories 

and in it s area and agency o ff ic e s q u a li fi e d to id e n tif y and assess the 

handicaps o f In dia n childre n?

Only in li m it e d numbers. I t is anticip ate d th a t the are a and agency 

o ff ic e s w ill need to co n tr a ct fo r stud en t assessment serv ic es in additio n 

to the adding o f q u a li fi e d perso nnel durin g the 1977-78 school ye ar.

How many s p e cia lly tr a in e d pe rso nnel are now wo rking in Bureau boarding 

schools and in bo rdertow n do rm itori es, and in area and agency off ic e s?

No Bureau-wide survey has been made o f th is data . Hie in fo rm ation is 

no t pre sently a v a ila b le . However, each area o ff ic e has a person 

designated as the are a's specia l ed uc ation coord in ato r. In a d ditio n, 

the Navajo Area, fo r exa mpie, has a sp eci al ed uc ation co ord in ato r a t 

each o f it s agency o ff ic e s .

How were these perso nn el prepared fo r competency in the id e n ti fi c a ti o n 

and assessment o f handicapped In dia n child re n?

A Bureau-wide sp eci al ed uc ation workshop was he ld in Au gu st, 1977, w ith 

tr a in in g in assessment con ducted by personnel from th e Bureau o f Education fo r the Handicapped. Re presen tation from each are a, agency, and 

school was in v it e d . More tho rou gh tr a in in g o f pe rso nn el is planne d fo r 

the 1977-78 school year, as o u tlin ed in the FY 78 BIA Annual Program 

Pla n fo r Education o f the Handicapped.

I f each school and re serv ation area is no t now sta ff ed w it h personnel 

q u a li fi e d to id e n ti fy a handicapped In dia n c h il d , and q u a li fi e d to assess 

the na ture and se v e ri ty o f th a t handicap, how can you prep are a national 

needs assessment?

More s ta ff w ill need to be added. In a d d it io n , con tr actin g fo r assessment 

ser vice s w ill supplement th e li m it e d s ta ff where needed.

(fo r example, among the Na vajos, ther e is co ns ider ab le deafn ess or p a r tia ll y 

impa ired he aring due to un repa ire d o t it is media; th ere is co ns iderab le 

blindn es s and lim it e d v is io n because o f trachom a; th er e is much cri p p li n g 

because o f the high in cide nc e o f accid ents .)

What percentage o f to ta l Bureau ele me nta ry and second ary scho ol po pu latio n 

is handicapped? Does th a t percenta ge va ry s ig n if ic a n tly from tr ib e to 

tr ib e ? Are ther e c e rta in type s o f han dica ps w ith a hig her percentage 

in some tr ib a l groups?

Exact da ta on th is w ill not be known u n til the assessment phase is 

completed a t the end o f th e 1977-78 school ye ar.
13. How do you propose to seek out, id e n tify and assess Ind ian ch ild re n not 

now in school?

This w il l be a jo in t e ffo rt du rin g the 1977-78 school year with personnel from Education, Soc ial Se rvices, Indian Health Services, and other agencies. Each area education o ff ic e is pre paring a plan fo r a comprehensive ch ild - find and assessment e ffo rt du rin g the curre nt school ye ar. I t is a n ti c i­ pated th at much of the ac tual assessment w il l be on a co ntract basis due 

to in s u ff ic ie n t qualif ie d personnel w ithin the BIA.

14. (th ere are two g en erally approved li s ts of kinds o f ha nd icaps...the y 

fo llo w :

de af, hard of hearing, b lin d , p a rtia ll y sighted, criooled or ortho pe dica lly handicapped, special he alth problems, educable m entally handicapped, tr a in - able mentally handicapped, em otiona lly d isturbe d, so cia lly maladjusted, slow 

le arn er, aphasia/communication diso rder s, cu ltura lly /e ducationally dis ­

advantaged, sp ecific learning d is a b il it ie s ....

behavio ral diso rders, communication disorders, hea ring impairment learnin g 

disa bled , me nta lly handicapped, m ultip le disabled, phys ically imp aire d, 

v is u a lly im pa ire d. ..)

From data now ava ila ble to you, how many handicapped Indian ch ild re n are 

.. .( u se one o f the lis ts above)?

Such data as th is w il l no t be ava ila ble u n ti l the cu rren t c h ild -f in d and 

assessment phase is completed.

15. How does the incidence o f such handicaps compare with the qeneral popula tion?

This inform ation w il l no t be ava ila ble u n ti l the cu rren t ch ild -f in d and assessment phase has been completed. Iso lated stu dies o f the past few 

years indica te a ge ne ra lly hig her incidence o f handicaopinq co nd ition s 

among Ind ian ch ild re n en rolle d in Federal schools than among the general 

po pulation.

16. (de fined as those in ad ditio n to , supplemental w ith, or d if fe re n t from those provided in the regular school program by systematic mod ifica tio n 

and adaptation o f in str uctional tech niques, mater ials, eouioment and 

personnel)

Of the to ta l number o f handicapped Indian ch ild ren en rolle d and not 

en rolle d in school on and o ff rese rvations , how many are now receiving 

the required fu ll range o f sp ec ial education services?

No comprehensive study o f th is nature has been made. The information 

is no t pres en tly av aila ble.
(these req uirem ents come from the co mnittee on confere nce between the 

House and Senate in de te rm ining FY 78 appro priations fo r th e Bureau) 

(6 /23/77 )

You have been re qu ire d by Congress to subm it a re port by December, 1977 

on a ll unmet sp eci al ed uc ation needs fo r handicapped In dia n yo ut h. What 

is the sta tu s o f th a t re port ? What proced ure s are you now employing to 

com plete a documented re p o rt by the end o f th e yea r?

The curr ent c h il d -fi n d and assessment e ffo r t w ill pro vi de v it a l in fo rma tion fo r th is re p o rt . However, th a t phase w ill not be com olete by 

the December date . Th at re p o rt w ill undoubted ly have to acknowledge 

the la ck o f such com ple te in fo rm ation and w i l l , th e re fo re , use be st 

availa ble in fo rm ation. Area o ff ic e s have been su bm itting da ta which 

es tim ates th e ir soecia l ed uc ation needs. This w ill be inc orpo rated 

in to the o ve ra ll re p o rt .

(s im il a rly from the same conferen ce committee)

(th e Senate committee made a p o in t o f in d ic a ti n g th a t th e Bureau has been 

serio usly rem iss in pro vid in g sp ecial ed uc ation se rv ices to handicapped 

and retarded In dian ch ild re n )

You have also been re quired by Congress to have a comprehensive national 

plan fo r pro vid in g an adequate ed uc ationa l program fo r th e ph ysic a lly 

handicapped, the em otionally dis tu rb ed and the le arn in g dis able d. What 

is the sta tu s o f th a t plan ? On what da ta is i t being based?

The FY 77 and FY 78 Annual Program Plans fo r Educa tion o f the Handicapped 

(sub mitted to USOE under P art B, Education o f the Handicapped A ct , as 

Amended by P.L. 94-142) c o n s ti tu te a plan fo r sp eci al ed uc ation se rvices 

in the BIA. The pla n pro vi des fo r the c o ll e c ti o n o f da ta fo r fu tu re 

programming fo r the handicapped. The plan includ es a fu ll -s e rv ic e go al 

o f sp ecia l ed uc ation and re la te d ser vice s fo r th e han dicapoed.

I f you have not com pleted a f u l l needs assessment o f handicapped Indian 

c h ild re n , in clu din g the id e n tif ic a tio n , screening and dia gnosi s o f a ll 

childre n on and o ff re serv atio ns, how can you possib ly de velop and 

implement a pla n fo r me eting the se needs?

The plan includ es the needs assessment and w ill be re vise d as needed, 

based on in fo rm ation fro m th e needs assessment.

( la s t year ther e were ap pr ox im ately eleven programs in ele ve n schools 

in the Bureau dealin g w it h specia l education...a lm ost none invo lved 

f u l l ser vice s, bu t p o rt io n s , such as the evalu ation o f p u p ils arxJ 

tr a in in g o f tea ch ers a t Chuska, a reading la b a t Shipr oc k, a resou rce 

ce nter a t Greasewood, a segre gated ce nt er a t P ie rr e , two specia l 

ed uc tio n tea chers a t Ste war t,
What programs does the Bureau now have in opera tion nationally to :

a. provide screening and diagnosis o f handicaoped Indian children?

b. develop approp ria te cu rr ic ula fo r these ch ildren?

c. develop in str uctional materials and techniques to sup port these 

programs?

d. provide approp ria te physica l fa c il it ie s and a lt e r those in need 

o f change?

e. info rm, work with and inv olv e the parents o f handicapped Indian 

children ?

f . tr a in teachers and counselors fo r special edu cation program?

g. id e n tify and invo lve those ch ild re n no t now in school in such 

programs?

h. provide a ll handicapped ch ild re n with the f u ll resources and 

services o f th e ir community, as HEW gu idelines mandate, so they 

can exoerience the normaliz ing influen ces o f the community?

Special education has been ca rried ou t by the areas, agencies, and schools 

with polic y and funding-advocacy from the Central O ffice (n ationa l) le vel. 

(For example, du rin g the 1976-77 school year, the Albuquerque Area had 

special education pro je ct s a t eig ht sch ools, and provided some special 

education services on an agency-wide ba sis.)

The area education o ff ic e s are preparing plans to pro vid e the services 

as ou tline d above in compliance with P.L. 94-142 and w ith Section 504 

of P.L. 93-112. The FY 77 and FY 78 Annual Program Plans fo r Education 

o f the Handicapped give direction to the areas in ca rryina ou t these 

func tio ns .

21. What numbers and percentages of Indian ch ild re n now id e n tifie d and 

diagnosed as handicapped are now involved in such programs?

Due to a lack o f uniform ity in id e n tifica tio n and diag no stic procedures 

in the pa st, exact inform ation is not av ailable a t presen t. Although 

an October 1, 1976, "C hild Count" survey revealed th at some 7,000 handicapped Indian child re n were rec eivin g some type o f sp ec ial education 

and related services in BIA schools, i t is expected th at more va lid 

fig ure s w ill be ava ila ble by the end o f the 1977-78 school yea r.
Since i t is obvious th at the Bureau has not provided special education 

services except on a lim ited basis , how w ill the req uired increased 

services to handicapped Ind ian ch ild ren be provided?

$2 m illio n in school opera tions funds have been designated fo r spe cial 

education use fo r Fisca l Year 1978. A dditio nally , i t is an ticipated 

that $5.5 m illio n w ill be av ailable from funds to be Drovided by the 

Bureau of Education fo r the Handicaoped during FY 78. Furthermore, 

ad ditio na l school opera tions funds fo r special edu cation are a n ti cipated fo r FY 79.

What co ntrols and evalu ation s procedures have you established to insure 

th at a ll handicapped India n ch ild re n w ill be loca ted, assessed and then 

placed in appro priate programs?

The FY 77 and FY 78 Annual Program Plans sp ec ify th at areas are to 

ca rry ou t these pro vision s. Hie area offic es are to mon itor agency 

and school a c ti v it ie s in th is a c ti v it y . Three additio nal qualif ie d 

special educators are to be hired a t the Central O ffic e adm inister 

and monitor the area programs. A dditio nally , s ta ff members from the 

Bureau of education fo r the Handicapped have pledged th at they w il l 

monitor and eva luate BIA a c tiv it ie s in these areas du rin g the 1977-78 

school yea r.

How w il l passage o f the early retirem ent b i l l fo r non -Ind ian employees 

affect the Bureau's sp ec ial education programs, which now re ly he avily 

on non-Indian ad ministra tors and sp ec ialis ts?

No inform ation has been co lle cted on th is . Discussions have taken plaoe 

between Bureau personnel and personnel at the Bureau o f Education fo r 

the Handicapped about seeking funds fo r tr ain in g Indians to f i l l special 

education po sitio ns in the BIA.

With no Bureau edu cation physica l fa c il it ie s , includ ing classrooms, 

a th le tic fa c il it ie s , do rm ito rie s or housing sp e c if ic a lly designed to 

accommodate handicapped Indian ch ild re n and employees, with many o f 

these fa c il it ie s d e fi c ie n t in sa fety requirements, what are your 

plans fo r bringing these fa c il it ie s to standards req uired by HEW?

The Division o f School F a c il it ie s is pres en tly making a survey o f needs 

in regard to fa c il it ie s and the handicapped. Representatives o f area 

fa c il it ie s engineering sections were in vited to the August Bureau-wide 

meeting on Education o f the Handicapped which was held in Reno, Nevada. 

Their partic ip ation indica ted awareness o f the requirements and a 

commitment to f u lf illin g the requirements.
73

26. Are you aware of the requirement and the acute need to a ctively involve 

the paren ts o f handicapped Ind ian ch ild re n in the development and the 

inplem entation o f special edu cation programs?

Yes, th is need is cle arly expressed in the fi n a l regu latio ns under 

P.L . 94-142, dated August 23, 1977. The Bureau is complying with 

th is requirement. Parents o f handicapoed ch ild re n pr es en tly serve 

on the BIA Advisory Council fo r Exceptional Ind ian Ch ildren.

27. (In dian pare nts have h is to ric a ll y been re lu ct ant to seek services fo r 

th e ir handicapped Indian ch ild ren...m uc h o f the entire program e ffo rt 

must be directed toward build in g understanding and awareness on the 

part o f these oarents o f what is po ssible today)

How w ill your programs and a c tiv it ie s bring a new awareness and understanding to the parents o f handicapped Indian ch ildren?

The act ive handicapped c h ild -f in d e ffo rt which w ill be undertaken 

during the 1977-78 school year w ill he lp bring awareness and understanding to these parents. Also , there is a requirement th at an 

In div id ual Education Program be prepared fo r each handicapped c h ild .

The paren t is a req uired member o f the committee which prepares the 

In divid ual Education Program.

28. (th ere may be almost 60,000 now atte nding boarding schools or li v in g 

in bordertown dorm itories. . .perhaps 15 to 20% are handicapoed...p ius 

a ll those not now enrolled in sch ool)

In a day and age when no group o f American citiz ens except Ind ian 

parents are required to give up th e ir ch ild re n a t the age o f six 

in ord er to provide them w ith an education, how to do you reco nc ile 

the requirement to work with handicapped Indian ch ild re n tog ether 

with th e ir fa m ilies, with a twelve year separation o f these ch ild re n 

from th e ir familie s?

How do these ch ild re n, as req uired by HEW, enter the mainstreams o f 

so ciety through the normaliz ing influ en ce o f th e ir own community, i f 

you take them away from th e ir homes? I t is traum atic and de stru ctive 

of educatio nal op po rtu nity th at you now take non-handicaooed ch ild re n 

from th e ir paren ts. How much more serious w il l be the e ff e ct o f 

removing handicapped Ind ian ch ild re n from th e ir homes to fa c il it ie s 

not designed fo r th e ir needs, to le arn from teachers no t prepared to 

understand, to re la te to or to work with them, com pletely isolated 

from th e ir fa m ilies.

Every e ffo rt w il l be made to serve the handicapped in th e ir own commun itie s or as close to th e ir homes as po ss ible, co ns ist en t with the 

wishes o f the parents and service s require d.

96-9 07 0 - 77 - 6
74

29 . How do you plan to rec oncil e th is most ser iou s co nf lic t? What programs 

are you prepared to recommend to preve nt the de str uc tio n of pa ren tal - 

ch ild asso ciati on?

The requirement th at a pa re nt is to serve as a menfcer of the coranittee 

which prepar es the Ind ivid ual Education Program should hel p ass ure th at 

the pa re nt 's concerns are included in th is plan ning . Furthermore, the 

par ent s of handicapped Ind ian children servin g on the BIA Advisory 

Council on Exceptional Indian Children are expected to giv e di re cti on 

toward corr ecti ng any problem which may ex is t in th is ar ea . Quali fied 

spe cia l educators are al so aware of the importance of the pa ren t-c hil d 

re la tio ns hi p.

30 . The House committee has o ff ic ia ll y reoor ted th at your re po rts (6/ 77) 

to them are so la te and of such poor qu al ity th at they have l i t t l e 

val ue. What reason does th is committee have to believ e th at your 

id en tifi ca tion , needs an aly sis and plan s for spe cia l educ ation wi ll 

be dif fer en t?

The po ten tia l avai la bil it y of some $7 millio n for educ ation of the 

handicapped during the 19 77 -78 school year should give the needed 

inpetu s to carr ying out the requiremen ts of the spe cia l education 

le gi sl at io n. However, u n ti l the reo rga niza tion of the Off ice of Indian 

Education Programs has been implemented, the re is no assur ance th at 

the heavy workload of the of fi ce can be gr ea tly fa ci li ta te d in any 

sig ni fic an t manner.

31 . Will the Bureau accomplish it s spe cia l education programs in te rn al ly or 

by con trac ting with Indi an tr ib es and org ani zat ion s, or both? If you 

plan to accomplish the en ti re program in te rn al ly , what evidence can you 

now pres ent to demonstra te your ca pa bi lit y and prog ress toward carryi ng 

th is out?

The Bureau does not plan to accomplish the en tire sp ec ia l educatio n 

program in te rn al ly . Permanent employee po sit io n ce ilin gs make such 

an endeavor d if fi c u lt , i f not imoossible. Contra cting fo r ser vic es 

is a log ica l al te rn at iv e.

32 . (th ere is su bs tan tia l prec eden t and au tho rit y for HEW and BIA to contr act 

with Indian tr ib es and org ani zat ion s)

Since cont ract ing of Bureau ser vic es to Indian tr ib es and orga niza tions 

is a major pa rt of the sel f-d ete rm ina tio n a c t, w ill you tr y to ge t tr ib es 

and Indian org ani zati ons to take over the planning and de liv ery of such 

serv ices ?

The spe cia l education program, or any aspe ct of i t , w ill be availa ble 

for con trac ting with Indi an tr ib es and orga niz atio ns in accordance 

with ex ist ing le g is la ti o n . Tri bal in te re st and lea dersh ip is invi ted 

and welcomed. Such lea de rsh ip has alre ady been in evidence in some 

ins tan ces , such as a t the Laguna Pueblo.
75

>

33. (le ss than 3% of the Bureau’ s education budget, or 6.25 m illio n was 

spent on vo cational education in 1976, and tw o-thirds o f th is amount was spent fo r its two post-secondary in s ti tu ti o n s , Haske ll and Southwestern Indian Polytechnic In stitu te ) (th ere are three sp ecial programs 

av ailable to Bureau high schools fo r vo cational education, la rg ely not 

u ti liz e d , although up to 12 m illio n was ava ila ble fo r Navajo alone la st 

y e a r. .. T it le IV, Pa rt A o f the Indian Education Ac t; T it le I of the 

Elementary and Secondary Education Ac t; Johnson O’M alley Supplemental 

Fund)

How many handicapped India n ch ild ren w il l benefit from vo cational educa tio n funds in FY 78? What amount o f dolla rs is involved?

Are you aware th at the Bureau has never received funds throuqh the 

Federal Vocatio nal Education Act? Why not?

The Bureau was excluded from Federal Vocational Education le gis la tion 

in the past. However, India ns are e li g ib le to rec eive vocation educa tion funds in FY 78 to be administered by the U. S. O ffice of Educa tio n in accordance w ith a jo in t Memorandum of Understanding with the 

BIA. I t is not known a t present how many ch ild re n and youth th is w il l 

serve. The Bureau w ill continue the voca tio na l education programs at 

Haskell and the Southwestern Indian Polyte chn ic In s ti tu te .

34. Do you plan to in it ia te an expansion o f vo cational se rvices fo r the handicapped Ind ian youth not now receivin g such services? In what way 

w il l you develop and carr y ou t these plans?

I t is an tic ipated th at as the Bureau begins to serve those handicapped 

ch ild re n and youth who are id entified and assessed du rin g the cu rre nt 

school year, the re w ill be an expansion o f vocation se rvices . The 

required In divid ual Education Plan w ill be the method by which the 

parents and profes sio na ls w il l determine the type o f edu cation program 

needed by the handicapped in div id ual.

35. (HEW gu idelines ru le ag ainst the co ntinuation o f segregated cen ters fo r 

the handicapped where they are isolated from the non-handicapped and 

from the mainstreams o f the community)

Have you researched and developed the methodology and programs necessary fo r lin kin g parents o f handicapped Ind ian ch ild re n and the ch ild re n them­ selves with the f u ll range o f government and community resources av ailable 

to these child re n, and in a manner co ns ist en t with the non-d isc rim ina tion 

requirements o f HEW?

Ib is is and w il l continue to be a ro le o f the q ualif ie d professio nal 

personnel working in sp ec ial education a t the area, aqency, and school 

le vels .

if

►
76

36. Are you aware th at an Ind ian org aniza tion from New Mexico submitted a 

proposal to the Bureau on A p ril 4, 1977, in response from a commitment 

from the Director of Ind ian Education Programs to fund th is pro je ct to 

plan , develop and implement a p il o t demonstration program to lin k 

id e n tifica tion and diagnosis o f handicapped Indian ch ild re n w ith an 

intens ive paren tal awareness program, u til iz in g the f u ll range o f those 

government services ava ila ble with the resources o f the comnunity, as 

required by HEW? This program, proposed by Anasazi, In c., is to be 

implemented on the grounds o f Southwestern Indian Polyte chnic In stitu te 

in Albuquerque, a Bureau vo ca tio na l fa c il it y now almost ha lf- va ca nt .

The program is in f u ll accord both with the requirements o f HEW re la tive 

to the handicapped and with the needs o f India n ch ild re n and th e ir parents.

The Direct or , Office o f Indian Education Programs, does no t re ca ll any 

commitment to fund th is pro je ct proposal, which was not even w ritten 

at the time of the convers ation in question. His re collection is th at 

the idea had merit and a proposal would rec eive cons ideration. Responses 

to Mr. Handlin's in quirie s have been sent. I t is planned th at the proposal w il l be reconsidered, along with the overa ll sp ecial education 

needs, during Fiscal Year 1978.

37. Are you aware th at aft e r making th is commitment, and a ft e r repeated 

re itera tions o f th is commitment from the Bureau, th at the Bureau has 

fa ile d to fund th is program which is cle arly in the best in te re st of 

your orga nization, and which can provide a model fo r programs throughout the country? I t has received the fu ll support o f the a ll-I nd ia n 

Board o f Regents at SIPI, o f the entire Albuquerque community through 

a committee headed by Mayor Harry Kinney, of the Undersecretary o f the 

In te ri o r James Joseph and h is ass ista nt, Wallace Green, o f Congressman Yates and the members o f Senator Abourezk's com nittee , o f Governor 

Je rry Apodaca in New Mexico...an d ye t the Bureau has fa ile d to respond?

We would lik e to know your in te ntio ns regarding th is program?

The Office of Indian Education Programs is in the orocess o f re cru itin g 

and sta ffin g fo r thre e sp ec ial education positio ns at the Ce ntral Office 

le vel as part o f the FY Annual Program Plan fo r u til iz a tio n o f T it le 

VI-B funds from the U.S. O ffic e o f Education. Ttiis spec ialized s ta ff 

w ill adm inister the T it le VI-B program and w ill consider the Anasazi 

proposal along with other proposals under the guidance giv en by the 

BIA Advisory Panel on Exception al Ind ian Children and w ith the requ ire ­

ments of le gis la tion concerning the use o f the funds. No comnitment 

fo r funding the proposal can be given a t th is tim e.
77

38. What amount of funds did you expend fo r a ll purposes fo r sp ecial

education in FY 77; what funds w il l you soend in FY 78? W il l a p il o t 

program managed by Anasazi, In c. be a part o f th at funding? And at 

what leve l?

A survey of area offic e s revealed th at a to ta l o f $4,250,055 was 

spent on special education in the BIA d urinq FY 77, exclu din g th at 

spent by Social Services. I t is an tic ipated th at $7.05 m illio n 

w ill be u tiliz e d fo r FY 78. There is no commitment a t th is time 

to a p il o t program by Ana sazi, Inc. Any proposal by Anasazi w il l 

be considered along w ith othe r prooosals in view o f le g is la ti ve 

requirements and the Bureau's FY 77 and FY 78 Annual Program Plans 

fo r Education of the Handicapped
78

Chairman Abourezk. We will take a 5-minute recess and then return with the other witnesses.

[Recess taken.]

Chairman Abourezk. The committee will come to order.

We have a panel of witnesses tha t I would like to ask to come forward: Earl Old Person, chairman of the Blackfeet Trib e; Mel Tonasket, president of the National Congress of American Indians; Joe •

De La Cruz, president of the National Tribal Chairman's Association ; and Bruce Townsend, chairman of the NTCA Legislative 

Committee. ..

Will you all come forw ard ?

Ear l, do you want to lead off ?

STATEMENT OF EARL OLD PERSON, CHAIRMAN, BLACKFEET TRIBE

Mr. Old P erson. Mr. Chairman, I have a brief statement.

First of all, I do want to express my appreciation in being given 

the opportunity to be here on behalf of the very important matter 

under discussion in this committee.

As you know, for many years the Indian people have been confronted with many problems of great concern. My fellow American 

Indian people, I think, will agree that each administration t hat came 

aboard was looking for something new to take place.

I think we can go as fa r back as our ancestors who began to have 

dealings with the so-called Anglos or the non-Indians in various ways.

Each time there was a great disappointment. Each time there was 

hope. The hope that they had was brought down.

I believe that as the Indian people Income more organized, they are 

beginning to come into the picture in determining things for themselves—the things tha t they have hoped for for the Indian people as 

well as the reservations that they occupy.

There have been many things confronting the Indians. The main 

thin g th at confronted them then and now is the land that they occupy.

They hope to develop it to the point th at they would realize that something is being done about the concerns they have and the hopes that 

they have.

It is awfully difficult to find the appropriate words to fit this occasion. A t this time in history, the Indian people are in desperate need 

of a strong and able leader. Each day brings new and well-planned 

attacks. The honor of our court system and its doctrine of fair decisions is being shuffled aside for the more popular goals of expediency 

and money. What has taken us decades to build is threatened by the 

stroke of a pen.

I believe that when we had people in charge of our leadership, as-far 

as Indian affairs is concerned, for many years we were led by nonIndians. It seems to me t ha t sometimes when they were leading the 

Indian people, there was power given to the Indians for their use. Cl

However, when you really look into those kinds of administration, 

you see that the hopes of the Indians were not being met. It was detrimental to them.

A few years ago the Indians had the opportunity to have Indian <

leadership in some key positions. Again, however, I want to say that
79

we have been aware tha t in many areas the Indians who were put into these key positions were powerless. As was stated here before, their hopes were very high regarding how they were going to ad­ minister the Indian affairs. Somewhere along the line, though, they were being held down so that they could not accomplish the things they h ad hoped for. They did not accomplish what the India n people had hoped would be established for the benefit of the Indian people 

throughout this country. Now I see that the Indian people have an opportunity for a higher position. Perhaps it is a position tha t will be able to do something for the Indian people throughout this country. We have great concern about how this will be administered and who is going to administer 

this position. Mr. Forrest Gerard is the person in question at this time. He is a member of the Blackfeet Tribe of the Blackfeet Reservation. I believe in his confirmation. After he is confirmed and takes the lead and takes the reins, I believe this position is something he will work for, because of the concern of the Indian people, the concern of Congress, and the concern of everyone else concerned with this new position which has 

been created. This is going to give him something of a leadway into the kind of things he would like to do and administer them accordingly. I be­ lieve that Mr. Gerard can do it. I am not here speaking only because he is a member of the Blackfeet Tribe, but because he is the man who has been named for this position. He has been nominated for this 

position. I speak on behalf of the Blackfeet people of the Blackfeet Reserva­ tion. They want to express through me their confidence in this man— Mr. Gerard. They are aware of his leadership throughout the years. Since he left the reservation, he has worked locally, regionally, and 

nationally. I would like to point one thing out. The Blackfeet people have never, to my knowledge, in any position that they have held, tried to take advantage of their position. Likewise, I have never seen Mr. Gerard, in any of his positions, to take advantage by looking specifically to the 

Blackfeet people. I am here because I know tha t Mr. Gerard is a man th at is needed. 

We need to assure ourselves what kind of a man is going to take the lead. Mr. Gerard has held many positions throughout this country. He has worked within the Nation's Capital. I believe that he has been aware o f the many problems tha t are confronted by Congress, by the India n people, and by everyone concerned with Indian government for 

the Indian people. I am sure that Mr. Gerard is going to look for new areas and the kind 

of a structure that the Indian people may well depend upon. The I n­ dians need an input into the structure that will bring the results th at 

they have longed for for many, many years. I do hope that this brief statement made by me as chairman of the tribal council will express our ideas. I have had the opportunity of leading the Indian people as a president of the National Congress and on other Indian committees that I have served on. I have seen and become aware of the many frustrations that Indian leaders have gone
80

throug h in their search to find the kind of le ad ersh ip a nd th e kind of 

ad mi nis tra tio n th at w ill wor k fo r the m an d fulfill th ei r hopes. I hop e 

th at thi s lea der ship will become evi dent in th is n om ina tion w hich was 

made.

I ask on behalf of the Blackfe et people as well as t he Ind ian peo ple 

throug ho ut this Na tio n th at a s peedy con firm atio n is made so th at we 

can get und erw ay with the kin d of things we will lx; worki ng on fo r 

the next 4 years. T he refore, I ask the com mittee fo r a speedy confirm atio n of Mr. Fo rres t Ger ard as ou r As sistan t Se cre tar y for In di an 

Affairs .

Th an k you.

Ch air man Abourezk. Tha nk you, Air. Old Perso n.

I)o you and y ou r t ri be favo r a separa te In dian agency th at is ou t of 

th e D epart ment of In te rior ?

Mr. Old P erson. Whe n the Blackfe et peop le became aware of the 

new position of A ssist an t S ecret ary for In di an Af fai rs we felt that this 

was an area which, as I hav e s tated, is s omewhat d iffere nt from wh at 

we h ad been wo rking u nd er w ith the Comm issio ner of India n Affair s.

I feel th at this new pos itio n—th e office of As sis tant Secre tar y fo r 

In di an A ffairs— is one t hat we can tr y ou t. We can find out wh at kind 

of an agency it is go ing to be. We will find ou t if it is the kin d of 

agency th at is going to serve the I nd ian people.

Ch air man Abourezk. My question is wh eth er or not you favo r a 

separate In dian age ncy outside of the Dep artm en t of Interio r.

Mr. Old P erson. I do not th ink th at we shou ld be completely separat e from the D ep artm en t of Interior.

Ch airma n Abourezk. So y ou are ag ains t a se pa rate agency ?

Mr. Old P erson. I feel t hat to a c ertai n ex tent th at we should work 

withi n the De pa rtm en t o f I nterior.

Ch air ma n Abourezk. Tha t you sho uld be w ith in the De partm ent o f 

In te rior —is th at w ha t yo u said ?

Mr. Ou> P erson. Yes.

Chairma n Abourezk. Th an k y ou very m uch.

Who is ne xt on th e p ane l ?

Air. Alel Tonask et, presiden t of th e Na tional Congres s o f Am erican 

In dian s is accompanied bv Chuck Trim ble , who is th e executive d ir e c ­

to r o f t h e N P A t

STATEMENT OF MEL TONASKET, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CONGRESS

OF AMERICAN IND IAN S; ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. TRIMBLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CONGRESS OF AMERICAN

INDIANS

Air. Tonasket. Tha nk you, Air. Ch airma n. If I might, I will also 

spe ak as chairma n of the Colv ille Co nfedera ted Tribes. I was asked 

by the t rib al council before 1 left home to make thi s a joint sta tem ent.

I am very h ap py to be h ere tod ay to ta lk a t t he confirm ation o f F o rrest Ge rard fo r A ssistant Secre tar y o f I nt er io r fo r I nd ian Affairs.

The National Congres s of America n In dian s, as well as the Colville 

Confe derated Tribe s, ha s wor ked v ery well wi th Air. Fo rres t Ge rard. 

When he was a staff member of the I nte rior Committee I know th at ou r
81

tribe and Chuck and the staff of the National Congress of American Indians worked very closely with Forrest on a good numw-r of bills.

We thin k that Forrest will do a good job as the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs. I think 1 can give you proof of the feelings ofth e National Congress of American Indians. In 1976, at the annual NCAI congressional awards, Mr. For rest Gerard received an award recognizing his work in Indian affairs.

• I can assure Mr. Gerard, this committee, and the administration, tha t if Forrest is confirmed—and we hope th at he is^—that NCAI will work with him. We are fairly confident tha t the tribes will support him and also work with him to see that the best interests of the tribes

f are served. .

If we have any concern at all—by myself and the organization which I represent—it is not concern about Forrest Gerard. It is mostly aimed at the Department of the Interior and the administration. If you look at the past history of the administration—specifically the Inte rior Department, the Department of Justice, and the Office of Management and Budget—you can see t ha t they have kind of run roughshod over 

the past Commissioners of India n Affairs. It is our feeling th at we need a true advocate and a total trustee to fight for the rights of the tribes—to take the positions that the tribes want taken and not to lie ordered around and backdoored and shortchanged by outside departments.

We feel that the conflict of interest situation which has been very 

predominant in the Department of Interior comes to light in the water rights issue. It comes to light in energy resources. It comes to light in land issues where there are difficulties between the Bureau of Land Management and Indian reservations or military bases and Indian reservations. It has even reached the point where the Federal Govern­ ment is working in concert with the States to take Indian land and 

take Indian water. I know very well how difficult it has been for a Commissioner of Indian Affairs to try to fight for those Indian waters and those Indian lands when the Justice Department and the Solicitor’s office, the Deputy Secretary, and when the Office of Management and Budget can write a memorandum and tell the boss a t the Bureau of Indian Affairs wh at to do and which positions to take whether he agrees with 

it or not. That scares me. I think that no matter who is President of the United States or who would be the Secretary of Inte rior , tha t fear still is deep within me. I have not seen much difference between any of the administrations. I think tha t one of the things tha t confirms my concern about the administration is the administration ’s unwillingness to deal with a policy on Indian affairs. Ca rter has made it very clear, and so has his staff in the White House, t ha t there is no Indian policy in this administration as of yet.

iM It is difficult for me to see how they can run the Department of Inte rior or how an Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs will know where he is going to operate if there is no national policy. Also, I think that the issue that President De La Cruz of the Na-

* tional Tribal Chairman’s Association and myself were involved in
82

when Presi dent Ca rte r issu ed ord ers fo r a natio nal wa ter p olicy is a n 

example. The tribes were left ou t of th at situatio n. We were only 

involved in an 11th ho ur ju mp whe re we ha d to come in to Wa shington 

an d ask what was going on an d try to curb the activ itie s there. The 

administ ratio n never gav e th e nominee an op po rtu nity to pa rti cipa te 

in the develop men t of the In di an wa ter policy.

A t th at poin t, I am h ap py to say, M r. Ge rard d id meet with M r. De 

La C ruz a nd myself. He took th e same p ositions t h at we took. He we nt 

into the meetings with us and arg ued with us on beha lf of the trib es 

throug ho ut the country.

I th in k th at there are a numb er of o ther issues th at concern me as 

a chair ma n and as a pr esiden t of the n ati onal organiz ati on about the 

Adm inist ratio n and wha t thes e attit ud es are going to do to Fo rre st 

Gerard if he is confirmed. One of the issues, besides the ones th at I 

hav e mentioned, is the disbelief o f the ad minist ratio n’s proposed se ttle ­

me nt of the lan d claims in Maine by the Passa ma quoddy and the Pe ­

nobscot trib es there. Ag ain, the re was no t even any con sultati on with 

the princ ipal tribes inv olv ed befo re the develop ment of tha t proposed 

settlem ent.

I think the fa ct th at th e tri be s were le ft ou t k ind of leaves a feeling 

th at the As sistan t Se cretary, no matter who he might be, might be 

le ft out of those majo r issues t ha t are pend ing before In dian country .

I, too, would ask fo r a speedy confirmation fo r Fo rre st Ge rard. Th e 

Na tio nal Congress of Am eri can In dian s is ha ving th ei r convention, 

which we hope will be the larg est in ou r his tor y. We would like to 

prov ide f or him an op po rtun ity to arti cu late his inten tio ns as the new 

As sis tan t Secretary for In dia n Aff airs.

I don’t want to ge t into Pr esiden t De La Cr uz ’s talk, bu t I think 

th at with the actions th at are going on aro un d the country—I am 

go mg to get into his talk. You should hid e vo ur p apers , Joe.

W ith the actions th at ar e going on aro und the c ountr y, I t hi nk it is 

very critical th at we get somebody to head th e Bu rea u of In dian 

Affairs as soon as possible. I t is in a sta te of limbo, as it h as been fo r 

a nu mber of months.

Ch air man Abourezk. M el, we are moving much more rapidly than 

th e ad mi nis tra tio n did.

Mr. T onasket. I have to agree with th at , too. I was in limb o fo r a 

numb er of months myself.

We a re anx ious to g et to work. W e feel th at to da y is a good d ay f or 

us. We have the Na tional Tr ibal Ch airm an ’s Associatio n sittin g side 

bv side with the Na tio nal Congress of Am eric an India ns. We have 

the regional Indian organizatio ns b ein g more prep ared and involved 

now. I th in k th at with all of this fee ling of wo rking tog eth er in the 

In di an organiz ations we will pro vide a great deal of support fo r 

Fo rres t and for the ren ew ing of the Bu rea u of In di an Affairs, and 

ho pe fully renewing a bu nch of ind ivi duals who wo rk in the Burea u 

of In di an A ffairs.

W ith th at, I would like to inv ite any question s th at you might have.

Ch air ma n Abottrezk. H ow do you feel abo ut a sep ara te In dian 

agencv outside of the Dep artm en t of In te rior to avoid the conflicts 

th at are inhere nt in the presen t system ?

Mr. T onasket. I am for it.
83

Chairman Abourezk. How do you think a majority of the tribes 

in this country feel about tha t concept ?

Mr. Tonasket. Very briefly, I had an opportunity, as you well 

know, to be on one of the task forces of the American Indian Policy Review Commission. I took the responsibility of trust responsibilities. I traveled quite extensively to many, many India n reservations. I particularly went to those tha t were in isolated areas such as Nevada and southern California, where the Bureau has provided hardly any 

services at all. I participated in hearings throughout the country, also. One of the questions that was aimed at the tribes was the question that you 

“ asked me. I have to tell you that there was not one tribe tha t we asked tha t was not in favor of that. I am sure there are other tribes that differ in their opinion, but of the ones tha t I met personally, 100 percent were 

for a new agency.

Chairman Abourezk. How many tribes have you talked to personally in that regard ? How many tribal leaders ?

Mr. Tonasket. There were about six in southern California, four 

in the deserts in Nevada—we held a hearing in Yakima, which most of the Northwest tribes attended. There are over 20 tribes in the State 

of Washington.

Chairman Abourezk. W hat about the action of the National Congress of American Indians itself? Has there been any expression of support for moving the Bureau of Indian Affairs out of Inte rior and 

making it a separate agency ?

Mr. Tonasket. Yes; I believe we have a resolution to that effect. 

That is why I brought our executive director. He can answer tha t 

more specifically.

Chairman Abourezk. Chuck, can you state what tha t is?

Mr. Trimble. Mr. Chairman, in my experience there has been significant suport for it. In digging up information for the American Indian Policy Review Commission we found in our files that as far back as 1968 the Chairman of the Mescalero Apache Tribe, who was then president of the National Congress of American Indians, Wendell Chino, called for tha t in his inaugural speech as the president of 

NCAI. Last year in the 33d annual convention for the National Congress of American Indians, which was held in Salt Lake City last Octo­ ber, a resolution was passed which specifically addressed the recom­ mendations of the American Indian Policy Review Commission for 

an independent agency. At that time general support was expressed for it. However, the tribes cautioned further study. They recommended that NCAI it­ self look into the feasibility of a number of options, one being that the Department of Indian Affairs be formed, taking the responsi­ bility of all the other agencies in the Government serving Indians— those inside and outside the Department of Interior—and placing 

them in one agency within the In terior Department. Another option was tha t it be formed under the White House, at a level perhaps such as the TVA or the Veterans Administration.

* Chairman Abourezk. Totally separate?

Mr. Trimble. Yes; right. Then there were other options. I think 

that what this points out is that there is always caution on the part of
84

tribal leaders for fear tha t separation from the Inte rior Department 

will cause the Department to become a full-time adversary, whereas 

now they are at least part-time advocates.

Chairm an Abourezk. They are also part-time adversaries, right?

Mr. Trimble. That was the same caution that I think caused the 

demise of the Trust Council Authority, so I think while those things 

stand there is significant support for an independent agency.

Mr. T onasket. Mr. Chairman, if I might add something, the recommendation of the NCAI was for an independent agency with its own 

Secretary or whatever the title might be. What most people ignore 

is that we proposed that it be investigated and that it be done in an 

orderly manner. It is not something that you proclaim be done and 

then tomorrow you don't have a Bureau of Indian Affairs, you have a 

whole new Department of Indian Affairs.

That is what the tribes were also saying out there. They want to 

be involved in the development of that.

Chairman Abourezk. My indications are that an overwhelming majority of the tribes support the separate agency concept. The question 

arises, then, how should it be done, rath er than whether it should 

be done. How and when ?

Mr. T onasket. I am not smart enough to say how it should be done, 

or it probably would have been in our task force report. However, I 

just thin k that the bulk of the responsibility has to be with the administration to lead the way on it, but I think tha t they have to have 

involvement with the tribes and with the national organizations to 

make sure that they do not make a repeat or a copy of what already 

exists.

I thin k tha t if the tribes were told, “You have to do it,” it might 

take away some of the strength of any change that might be recommended to the Congress or to the President. I think t hat it has to be 

a joint effort.

Mr. Old Person. Mr. Abourezk, I just want to clarify myself. I 

guess I sort of misunderstood your question concerning a separate 

agency. I was trying to answer it in a different way. I was tryin g to 

say that I did not want to relieve the Interior Department of any 

responsibility that they have for the Indian people.

However, as far as the separate Indian agency, conducting and 

setting up new ways for the Indian people, the India n people tha t I 

have talked to feel the same way I do. There should be power given 

to th at individual to make those decisions and be able to be considered 

as an agency for the Indian people so that there will be no conflict 

tha t will come in from the many areas that I referred to.

We are told one thing, and then somebody higher up says tha t we 

cannot do that. “Something else needs to be done,” or “This is the 

best way out.”

I thin k this has to be stopped. They talk about self-determination 

for Indian people. I think we are beginning. We have been determining for ourselves, but our determinations have never been carried 

out.

I just wanted to clarify this and back it up by the Indian tribes 

tha t Mel referred to.

Chairman Abourezk. I can understand your concern about the responsibilities on the part of the Interior, even though there is a
85

separate agency. Theoretically, it will still be one of the trustees, since 

all of the administration is a trustee for the Indian people. I understand what Chuck Trimble said as well. They may not act that way all the time. Nevertheless, they would be legally forced to 

act tha t way if necessary. I think the tribes have indicated their preference for a separate agency, which would advocate in favor of the Indian people. As I understand it, Mr. Old Person, that is a concept t hat you would support as well. Your answer is ; yes ?

Mr. Old Person. Yes.

Chairman Abourezk. Mr. Tonasket and Mr. Trimble, before we 

pass on to the next witness I just want to say that the leadership tha t both of you have shown in the past as leaders of the National Con­ gress and of the Indian community has been exceptional. It has been very good. It has had a gre at deal to do with the fact tha t the Indian people in this country are finally getting their act together after decades of division and internal squabbling. I, personally, as one interested in Indian affairs, very much ap­ preciate what you have done and the positions that you have taken. I think you are to be complimented by everybody who is interested in 

Indian affairs.

I want to thank you very much.

Mr. Tonasket. Thank you.

Mr. Trimble. Thank you very much.

Chairman Abourezk. Joe De La Cruz?

STA TEM ENT OF JOE DE LA CRUZ, PR ESIDEN T, NATIO NAL TRIBAL 

CH AIRM AN ’S ASSOCIATION

Mr. De L a Cruz. Senator Abourezk, again it is a pleasure to come 

before this committee. In all of the spokes of the wheels of this whole democracy, this is one of the few areas that you can find that we have 

a strong spokesperson who is in favor of the Indian people. I want to talk about some of the things that happen throughout this Nation today because of the self-determination era and because Indians are getting their acts together through self-determination. The National Council of State Governments, the National Attorney General’s Association, and the National Governors Conference in 1974 and this year did some studies tha t were parallel to our own American Indian Policy Review Commission. The conclusions of their reports 

are almost parallel and identical as far as Indian rights go. Because of the Indian righ ts and because of the Indian ownership of natural resources in this country and the waterways, we are prob­ ably approaching one of the most critical areas of Indian affairs. I t is so critical that w’here we can find friends or have influences on any friends th at we may have within the Government it is going to be very important to our survival, as one-half of 1 percent of the 200 million 

people in the United States. I have known Mr. Forrest Gerard for almost 12 years. I have worked with him at the trib al level when he was with the Indian Health Service and throughout his career here in Washington. Nfy own personal feeling is tha t today we need the type of man that he is.
86

He is articulate and has a cool head in some of the developments 

tha t are happening in Indian affairs. In reviewing newspaper clippings that are compiled by several agencies regarding Ind ian self-determination and Indian rights, I find tha t looking through these newspaper clippings the general press takes the position tha t if it is not openly hostile, it falls quite short of sup­ porting the India n position. More importantly, the press has not systematically examined the India n claims in the same way that it 

has covered the opposition. We suspect that this may be p artly due to racism and partly due to the media’s predisposition to support and protect the economic and 

political status quo when it is threatened by radical change.

Chairman Abourezk. Joe, you must be aware that that is one of 

the major accusations against the media.

Mr. De La Cruz. I recognize that.

Chairman Abourezk. They are there to protect the establishment, 

and any th reat to the status quo establishment will immediately come 

under attack by a major pa rt of the media.

Mr. De La Cruz. As a small minority population in the Pacific 

Northwest, because of the gulf fishing case and because of the water rights situations, I thin k probably some of the most crucial Indian rights things are developing in the Pacific Northwest right now. We 

are feeling the brunt of th at. Because of that status quo we are seeing it within our State legisla­ ture, within our town governments, and with our congressional 

delegation. That is one of the reasons that I am glad to he sittin g at this table 

with these gentleman, and tha t Indian country is together, and tha t 

we are here to hold confirmations. Our position is th at of part of the spokes of the wheel within the democracy of this country. We have an Indian person who has had the experience of the establishment hack here, and who knows the Indian people, to help us put together our machinery to he able to get the support we need not only within this administration, hut out on the local levels. We need to develop a position with the Carter 

administration which we do not have. Reviewing the resolutions of the National Tribal Chairman's As­ sociation for the past five annual conventions, the Indian position has priorities on the legislation parallel to the things that have been developed by the American Indian Policy Review’ Commission. As far as the question tha t you have been asking the other gentlemen, there is a resolution supporting the view’ that there he a separate Indian division within some part of the administration of the U.S. 

Government. I think th at the Indian position is that they want a separate division. As for myself, in reviewing the past appropriations of Interior, I would raise a question about the way Interior administers trust ter ­ ritories and appropriates the money. I think they have treated them much better than they have the American Indians where there is a trea ty responsibility and a definite trust relationship with the U.S. 

Government.
87

Without knowing what the policy of this administration is, and if I remember righ t it is a Democratic administration, the National Democratic P latfo rm did adopt the six provisions presented to them by the National Tribal Chairman's Association. One of those was to stand behind the Indian treaty rights and the I ederal court decisions 

tha t are the law of the land. I am very nervous, jus t as Mr. Mel Tonasket is. We have not as yet been able to sit down with people in the administration and find out 

what their Indian policy is going to be. Although I realize that the Indian tribes’ resolutions are in support of a separate division of Indian aflairs, and tha t that is what the tribe wants, I think that we should be working on a plan of action 

as to how we should get there. We should definitely know where the administration is going to be, 

and also other branches of Government that we deal with. Another area tha t we pushed strongly for was a separate division in the Justice Department. With all of the court cases that arc creat­ ing a backlog across the country, I am wondering if we put a separate division in the Justice Department—they might be only too happy to give it to us, and then shove it oft* over in a corner somewhere. There have been too many years when In dian people were maneu­ vered and manipulated. As we sit here together, I think tha t we are going to be together because we recognize how critical the situation is tha t has developed as a result of the energy resources. Again, energy was one of the top prior ities of the Democratic platform and of this 

administration. The Senate Indian Affairs Committee’s records show that 50 percent of the remaining energy resources, one-third of the uranium, and a good percentage of other natural resources belong to the American Indian people. It makes one very nervous that there has not been a relationship where we have been able to sit down with people and discuss how these resources should be developed and plan for the 

development of those resources. I cannot add anyth ing more to my peers as far as what Indian people are against in the United States today. I definitely stand by and sup­ port them in hopes tha t we will have an expedient confirmation of 

Mr. Gerard. If there are some questions that are missed by this committee, if he is confirmed maybe the National Congress of American Indians will 

put him on the spot in Dallas next week. ,

Thank you.

Chairman Abovrezk. Joe, thank you very much for your testimony.

I might add that I think the new direction that your organization— NTCA—is taking, is very hopeful for the Indian people. I always thought in the past that the National Tribal Chairman's Association was nothing but a group of in-house tamed Indians sponsored by the administration to stir up trouble whenever they might need trouble 

stirred up. I think that that has come to an end with your particula r admin­ istration. I have great hopes for your personal abilities for leadership. Your leadership is outstanding. We look forward, as I am sure the 

Indian community does, to great things.
88

Mr. De La Cruz. Thank you.

Senator, Bruce Townsend, chairman of the Delaware Tribe, will be 

giving a technical statement tha t was developed from the resolutions 

and position papers of the National Tribal Chairman’s Association 

throughou t the last 4 or 5 years.

Bruce?

STATEMENT OF BRUCE M. TOWNSEND, CHAIRMAN, LEGISLATIVE 

COMMITTEE, NATIONAL TRIBAL CHAIRMAN’S ASSOCIATION

Mr. T ownsend. Thank you, President De La Cruz.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Bruce Miller 

Townsend, chairman of the Delaware Tribe of Indians which, incidentally, is the first tribe to have entered into a treaty with the United 

States of America—the Tre aty of 1778.

I am also a member of the board of directors of the National Tribal 

Chairman’s Association. I have come before you today to voice the 

strong support of NTCA for confirmation of Forrest Gerard as Assistant Secretary of the Interior.

It is certainly my feeling, and I know the feeling of many of my 

fellow chairmen, and in fact the vast majority of them, tha t these are 

extraordinarily exciting and challenging times for the American In ­

dian and the Alaska Native people. It is an era literally bursting with 

the potential for real progress, bu t the age also forewarns of the possibility of dramatic shifts in the course of recent history.

The times demand greatness of our tribal leaders and, certainly, 

we of the National Tribal Chairman’s Association believe it is our 

righ t to expect no less from the highest Federal officer specifically 

charged with our trust relationship.

The times impose upon both the Assistant Secretary and the tribal 

leadership the burden of performing our responsibilities with the 

highest skill, the highest vision, and the greatest of mutual respect. 

A little old-fashioned friendship and good will added to the equation 

would not hurt, I might add.

My purpose this morning is to talk more about the nature of the 

position for which Mr. Gerard has been nominated than to laud him 

personally, although parenthetically I can say tha t I have known 

Mr. Gerard over a number of years in which the Delaware tribe has 

fought great and crucial legal battles and legislative battles. He has 

been most receptive to our plea and our cause in his former position 

with the Senate staff. I was very much heartened to hear him come 

before the board of directors of the National Tribal Chairm an’s Association less than a month ago and answer forcefully, candidly, with 

all fairness, and completely certain questions that the board had of 

him.

Perhaps, in essence, it was a little bit of a warmup to the confirmation hearings which he is now going through. We came away feeling 

that our preconceived ideas about Forre st were certainly well placed 

and were not in error at all. We can certainly support his nomination 

wholeheartedly.

Let me say tha t the relationship between the United States and the 

Indian tribes is a political one—government to government. The In-
89

dian tribes existed prio r to the existence of this great Nation of ours. It derives from a long history of European recognition of our sov­ ereignty and our inherent title to our national territory, of relations 

to war and peace, and of treatymaking. The U.S. Constitution, as we all know, in the commerce clause, discusses the relationship of the American Ind ian nations. It is manifest today in the congressional commitment to securing self-determination for Ind ian people. The Indian Reorganization Act and the Indian Self-Determination Act embody a policy of assuring the I ndia n his future as an Indian through the development of strong, 

viable tribal governments. As citizens, Indians as individuals already possess the freedoms necessary to pursue personal self-determination. However, as the cornerstone of Federal Indian policy, self-determination means th at Indian tribes must be regarded as permanent, distinct political com­ munities for as long as they choose to maintain the ir tribal relations. Legally, the tribes are subject to the power of the Constitution. Morally, we possess certain inalienable rights, including the righ t to consent and not to consent to actions affecting us according to com­ munal will. The political nature of our relationship with the Federal Government must be made visible and understood by all who are concerned for it, and it must be defended against all encroachment whether from within or from outside the Government. The political nature of the relationship implies the necessity of Federal respect for elected tribal leadership. The day is past when Federal intervention in the daily internal political life of the tribe 

is either necessary, app ropriate, or welcome. I might say, parenthetically, that prio r administrations have had this difficulty. Whom do Federal officials listen to? Do they listen to the people who elect them, who have the tenacity and perhaps the commitment ? I interpret it to be the latter. O r should the Federal peo­ ple listen to dissident renegade groups. This is all pa rt of the question, and it is one which must be addressed. We hope tha t they would listen to a majority of the elected people. Otherwise, chaos would reign. We do not suggest in any of the foregoing, however, the diminish- ment of the Federal tru st responsibility. The United States is the trustee for Indian tribes and their resources. This is a fact of law and policy. Both law and policy require tha t the trus t responsibility be performed according to the most exacting Federal standards. Such 

standards do not remain fixed in time. The Supreme Court discussed those in the Seminole case as needing 

the highest responsibility and trust and meeting the most exacting 

fiduciary standards. Thus the tru st relationship must expand in some areas, particularly in the m atter of protection of Indian land and natu ral resources, while it may decrease with the declining need of the tribes in matters of 

political and administrative regulation. In the coming months and years we view as critical the Assistant Secretary’s aggressive attention to the protection of Indian natural resources—particularly water rights and mineral rights. Erosion of the land base must also stop. Indian tribes will not survive, I feel certain, unless there is substantial, self-sustaining economic development on the reservation itself.

9 6 -9 0 7 0 - 77 - 7
90

This, in turn, is impossible without the preservation of our water 

and the intelligent long-range development of both renewable and 

nonrenewable resources. This will require tremendous expertise on the 

part of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and other agencies as well as a 

good measure of political fortitude and savvy.

Chairman Abourezk. Excuse me, Mr. Townsend.

Mr. T ownsend. Yes, sir.

Chairman Abourezk. I t is not the practice of the committee to allow 

the reading of long statements. We would prefer th at you would just 

state your ideas ad lib, more or less, because the prepared statements 

will be printed in full in the record.

Mr. Townsend. I will continue to do as you, Mr. Chairman, have 

asked.

You have asked prior witnesses about questions relative to a separate 

agency. With respect to the question of the Federal agency, we might 

ask what is really meant by that ?

Indians oftentimes are conservative people. They have committed 

themselves and seen the Government commit themselves, only to come 

away disappointed time and time again. Therefore, there has been an 

erosion occurring oftentimes between the credibility of the Federal 

Government under the trust relationship with the high and exacting 

responsibility that the Supreme Court says we must all try to follow.

This can and does appear to be something tha t has caused this erosion and this lack of decorum and the lack of good feeling. For this 

reason, any separate agency must come with a great deal of skepticism. 

Are we, as President De La Cruz said, going to be funneled into one 

agency shunted over in a comer and forgotten about without any advocate? We need an advocate who is strong at a cabinet level of the 

U.S. executive department.

Is that agency going to have adequate legal staff? What is going to 

be the amount of weight th at that agency is going to have in the event 

he is caught in between, with the Interior Department seeking to protect natural resources and other aspects of the Government’s 

responsibility?

It goes back to the legal premise, we would respectfully submit. 

Indian tribes are not just another minority group. I say this with all 

due respect. I am not trying to put down any other ethnic or other 

group at this point at all.

I refer to the high responsibility of the Federal Government as a 

trustee. As a trustee. I need not lecture this committee about it. I am 

just saying for the record that there is a relationship that the Indian 

people have been told about. We have been promised. We have been led 

to believe tha t it really exists, only to find ourselves in conflict with 

other segments of the Government. Thus, then1

 is a classic conflict of 

interest between Indian advocates in the Federal Government and a 

perhaps lesser legal, but more powerful political, strength of a special 

group.

The Indian has found himself coming up second best too often.

In connection with this. Mr. Chairman, I would respectfully submit 

that the Indian is in favor o f a separate agency provided th at there is 

no diminution in what we enjoy now. We would hope that it would, in 

fact, give us greater streng th, a greater voice, and more power. I do 

not like to use the word “power.” Nobody does.
91

At any r ate, it would give the I ndia n tribe s the pr op er an d bal anc ed amoun t of power that they deserve un der th is t ru st res ponsibi lity in ad dit ion to the reg ular duties owed bv the Gov ernment to c itizens of 

these Un ite d States. Th us, M r. Ch air ma n, you d id no t a sk me t hat question, bu t I thou gh t 

I would e xte nd i t p rio r to th at. I certa inly consider it an ho no r to have been asked to come and discuss the se matter s on be ha lf of th e National Tr ibal Ch airm an 's Association. I hope th at the stat ur e of our org aniza tio n rises in the perspe ctive of you, Mr. Ch air ma n. We a re elected. We do tr y to d o ou r very b est in every w ay th at we can t o dis charg e the t ru st, the confidence, and the deleg ated au thor ity th at the people o f the body p oli tic ha ve place d in us. Tha nk you, s ir, f or th e chance to come before y ou r co mmittee.

Ch airm an Abourezk. Tha nk you , Nlr. Tow nsend, fo r an excelle nt 

statem ent. I would like to than k a ll o f the witnesses. I want to ann ounce that thi s comm ittee will meet a t 10 a.m. tom orrow mo rni ng f or the p urp ose of v oting on the co nfir mation o f M r. Ge rar d, and a lso a cou ple of other items on the agenda. The he arin g is adjou rned and th e comm ittee is in recess un til 10 a.m. 

tom orrow morn ing . [W hereu pon, at 1 2:07 p.m ., th e he aring was a djo urned an d the com­ mittee stoo d in recess to meet Tu esd ay, Sep tem ber 13, 1977.]

[The fol low ing ma terial was received for inclusio n in the rec ord:]

Lac Courte Oreill es,

Tribal Governing Board,

P ride of th e Oji b w a, 

Hayward, August 30, 7977.

Ms. Kat he ri ne H. Tij erin a,

Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, U.S. Senate, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Cha ir m an : I am writing in support of the appointment and confirmation of Mr. Gerard as Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs. Thanking you much. I am Ric k B aker, President,

Oreat Lakes Inter-Tribal Council, Inc.

Nas hv ill e, Tenn., September 9, 1911.

Ho n. J am es Abour ezk.

Dear Senator Abourezk : At its Board meeting on September 8th the United Southeastern Tribes passed a resolution supporting the nomination of Forrest Gerard as Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs. Mr. Gerard is eminently qualified for this position. We urge quick confirmation in order for him to address the urgent issues facing the American Indian. Mr. Gerard is not only sensitive to those needs but also understands the integrity of the trust relationship between the federally recognized tribes and the United States. United Southeastern Tribes was established in 1969 and has as its members the following tribe s: Choctaw, Cherokee, Mohawk, Coushatta, Seneca, Seminole, Miccosukee, Chitimacha. Ronald L. Cournoye r,

Executive Director, United, Southeastern Tribes, Inc.
92

Olympia, Wash.

Senator James Abourezk.

Select Committee on Indian Affairs.

The Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission believes immediate Senate action 

of confirmation of Forrest Gerard as Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs is 

absolutely essential for serving and protecting rights and interest of Indian 

people. Further undue delay will harm and injure these vital rights and interests. 

Commission representatives will be in Washington, D.C. on behalf of their tribes 

September 12 and 13 and request an opportunity to present our views on the 

importance of this nomination before your committee.

Bill Frank, Jr.,

Chairman, Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission.

Al-Ind-Esk-A,

Seattle, Wash., September 6,1977. Senator J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Select Committee on Indian Affairs, Dirksen Senate Office Building,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : The upcoming confirmation hearings for Forrest 

Gerard, chaired by yourself, will have wide range impact on Indian affairs for 

the years to come, a fact of which I am sure you are well aware.

Mr. Gerard’s record in Indian policy and affairs is outstanding. He brings to 

the Department of Interior the knowledge and leadership that has been needed 

for so long. To detract from these assets, in my opinion, can only serve to reduce 

his i>otential effectiveness. I would therefore ask for a smooth hearing in an 

effort to facilitate an orderly transition.

Sincerely,

Gregory W. Frazier,

Executive Director.

Seattle, Wash., September 7, 1977. Hon. J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, Washington, D.C.

Arctic Slope Regional Corporation, representing 4,000 Eskimo shareholders of 

Arctic Slope Region, strongly endorses appointment of Forrest Gerard as Assistant Secretary of Interior. Mister Gerard has long familiarity with and sensitivity to Indian and Eskimo affairs. He brings excellent qualifications to new 

ix>st. We urge earliest possible confirmation of Mister Gerard.

Edward E. Hopson,

President, Arctic Slope Regional Corp.,

Barrow, Alaska.

Pueblo of Laguna, 

Laguna, New Mex., September 12,1977. Hon. James Abourezk,

Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, New Senate Building,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : Enclosed, for inclusion in the hearing record, 

is testimony which the Pueblo of Laguna would have given orally in support of 

the nomination of Forrest J. Gerard for Assistant Secretarv of the Interior for Indian Affairs.

Your favorable consideration of Mr. Gerard’s nomination will be most appreciated.

Sincerely yours,

Roland E. J ohnson, Governor.

Statement of Roland J ohnson Before the Senate Select Committee on I ndian Affairs in Support of the Nomination of Forrest J. Gerard for Assistant Secretaryof the Interior for Indian Affairs

My name is Roland Johnson, and I am the Governor of the Laguna Pueblo. 

Ia m here today to offer my enthusiastic support for the nomination of Forrest J. 

Gerard to be Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs.
93

Mr. Gerard unquestionably would bring invaluable experience and qualifications to the office of Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs. His 

professional career has encompassed extensive service in both the executive and 

legislative branches of the federal government. Specifically, he worked for several 

years in the Indian Health Service and the Office of Indian Affairs of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Furtherm ore, Mr. Gerard made numerous distinguished contributions in the 

area of Indian affairs during his tenur e as Professional Staff Member for Indian 

Affairs of the Senate Committee on Interior and Insul ar Affairs. While he served 

in the foregoing capacity, he played a major role in developing and effecting the 

passage of many important pieces of Indian legislation, including the Indian 

Education Act of 1972, the Indian Financing Act of 1974 and the Indian SelfDetermination and Education Assistance Act of 1975. Thus, Mr. Gerard not 

only possesses an extremely varied employment background tha t is directly 

relevant to the position for which he has been nominated in the Department of 

the Interio r, but, more important, he also has demonstrated in each job he has 

held a remarkable capacity for getting things done.

In closing, let me emphasize t ha t Forrest Gerard possesses th e two attrib utes 

which, in my opinion, the Assistant Secretary of the Inter ior for Indian Affairs 

must have. First, Mr. Gerard has a broad experience in government which will 

enable him to know precisely how the federal bureau cratic process, which undoubtedly has tremendous impact on Indians and Indian tribes, works in the area 

of Indian affairs. Second, despite his lengthy government service, Mr. Gerard 

has succeeded as few others have in not becoming just another federal bureaucrat. To the contrary, he has demonstrated again and again a remarkable 

ability—even in the face of bureaucratic opposition—to remain sympathetic 

and responsive to the needs and inter ests of Indian people.

I respectfully urge th at the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs confirm 

at the earliest possible date the nomination of Forrest Gerard as the Assistant 

Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs.

Senate Select Committee on I ndian Affairs,

Senate Office Building

Washington, D.C.

The Nisqually Indian community strongly supports the confirmation of Forrest 

Gerard as Assistant Secretary of I nte rior for Indian Affairs and urge immediate 

action by the Senate in confirming this nomination. Action on this nomination 

should be delayed no longer. Mr. G erard ’s proven abilities will serve the interests 

of the Indian communities across the Nation.

Georoeana Kautz,

Chairperson, The Nisqually Indian Tribe.

The P ueblo of Zuni,

Zun i Tribal Council,

Zuni, N. Mex., August 31,1917.

Ms. Katherine H. Tijerina,

Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, Dirkson Senate Office Building,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Ms. Tijerina: The Zuni Tribal Council endorses its full support of 

Mr. Forrest Gerard. His tr ack record in Indian Affairs indicates tha t he has the 

qualifications for the post of Assistant Secretary of the Inte rior for Indian 

Affairs.

So, t herefore, the Zuni Tribal Council of the Pueblo of Zuni, Zuni, New Mexico 

hereby urges the Chairman and the Committee to confirm Mr. Forrest Gerard 

to fill the position of the Assistant Secretary of the Inte rior for Indian Affairs.

Sincerely yours,

Edison Laselute, 

Governor, Pueblo of Zuni.
94

Testimony of Delfin J. Lovato, Chairman, All I ndian Pueblo Council, 

Before the Select Committee on Indian Affairs

Thank you, Mr. Chairm an and members of the Committee for giving me this opportunity to prese nt testimony at the confirm ation hea ring s of Mr. Fo rre st Gera rd for the position of Ass ista nt Secr etary of the Inter ior for Indi an Affairs, 

Departm ent of the Inter ior . My name is Delfin J. Lovato. I am Chairman of the All Indi an Pueblo Council repre senting the nineteen (1 9) Pueblo rese rvations of New Mexico who have a combined population of app roximatey 40 thous and. We come h ere authorize d by the Governors of the nine teen Pueblos to express our unequivocal and he art fel t supp ort for the confirmation of Mr. Fo rre st Gera rd for the position of Ass ista nt Secr etary of the In terio r for Indian Affairs. There is no doubt in our minds th at Mr. Gera rd has the quali ficati ons and cap abilitie s to fulfill to the high est limits i»ossible th e responsibilities and obligations of this imp orta nt position, and I>erhaps more importa nt, the perso nal and professio nal commitm ent to car ry out and fulfill the responsibilities and obliga tions th at the Feder al Government has to the Indian people of th is country. After careful deli bera tion and review of all qualified cand idate s and af te r havin g considered the issues confro nting our I>eople, the legislative and oth er prio ritized needs of the Ind ian community, and the ever-increasing effor ts to under mine and begrudge the special Fede ral- Indian tru st relation ship we could not reach any oth er conclusion but to supp ort Mr. Gerard. To go on any fu rth er as to Mr. Ger ard’s qualifications and exp erience for this i mpo rtan t position woud be repetit ious. Mr. Chairm an, perm it us to make one add itional ixnn t which we feel is rel­ eva nt to the ma tter before this Committee. The Pueblo people have long con­ sidered you a frien d and jierha ps the stro nge st advo cate for Indi an rig hts and justice, and as such, we requ est Mr. Gerard be confirmed expeditio usly. You a re no doubt awa re of t he adve rse effects t ha t the Indian commu nity has had to bear because of the delay in get ting a nomin ation for this i>osition. We have per ­ sonally witnessed a conti nued dete rior atio n of Indi an Affairs within the De­ par tme nt of Int eri or thro ugh out this period. It is of litt le consequence whe ther the adm inis tration or the Dep artm ent of Int eri or was responsible for the delay in the nomination of Mr. Gerard, however, we strongly feel th at we have been the victims of this unnecessary delay and we urge you and the members of this Committe e fo r an e xpeditio us confirmation o f Mr. Fo rre st Ger ard as the Ass ista nt 

Secretary for the Interio r for Ind ian Affairs. I will be happy to answ er any questio ns the Co mmitte e m ay have.

American Association of Colleges

of Osteopathic Medicine,

Washington, D.C., Septemb er 18, 1977.

Hon. J ames Abourezk,

Chair man, Select Comm ittee on Ind ian Affairs, Dirk sen Senate Office Building,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : On beha lf of the American Association of Colleges of Osteoi>athic Medicine, we strong ly endors e Mr. Fo rre st Gerard to be A ssistant 

Secretary of th e Inter ior f or Indi an Affairs. Mr. Gerard has con trib ute d signific antly and has w orke d unti ring ly to provide the proper recognition of the Nativ e American popu lation by his service in the Senate . This Associatio n and the profession of which it is pa rt are gra tef ul to have had the privilege of work ing with him, especially in the development of the 

Ind ian Heal th Care Imp rove men t Act. We there fore hope he is confirmed withou t delay.

Sincerely,

Anthony J. McNevin,

Execu tive Direct or.

Duluth, Min n., Septemb er 7, 1977.

Senator J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Senate Select Committee.

Minnesota Chippewa Tribe requ ests th at the following resolution be made pa rt of the record in hea ring s on Septem ber 9 ,12 -13, before the Senat e Select Commit-
95

tee, regarding the Pre sidential app ointmen t of Mr. Fo rre st Gerard as Ass istan t 

Secretary of the Int eri or for In dia n Af fai rs:

Wher eas, For res t Gera rd, a membe r of the Blackfeet Tribe of Montana, has 

been nominated by Pres iden t Car te r for the position of As sistan t Secretary of 

the Interio r for Indian Affairs, an d whereas, Fo rre st Ger ard's appointmen t is the 

first of its kind in the histo ry of the American India n, and whereas, the appointment lifts Ind ian affa irs to a new level as a s ecret ari at, and whereas, the position 

will enhance Indian self- deter mina tion, as idealiz ed by the Ind ian tribes, and 

whereas, Fo rre st Gerard is emin ently well qualified to fill suc h position, bringin g 

to it a vas t and varied exi>erience in are as of heal th, Ind ian Affairs, and in congressiona l liaison, and whereas, the work of the new’ Assistan t Secr etary of the 

Inter ior for Indi an Affairs will be supported by the appointme nt of the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe's form er Execu tive Director, George Vincent Goodwin, 

Jr. , a member of the Whi te Ea rth Bank of Chippewa, as Deputy Ass istan t 

Secretary of the Int eri or for Ind ian Affairs, made by Sec reta ry of the Int eri or 

Cecil J. Andrus, and whereas, the work of the new Assistan t Secr etary of the 

Int eri or for India n Affairs will be simil arly supported by the appointment of 

Thomas Frede ricks, a member of the Mandan-Hidatsa, as Asso ciate Solicitor for 

Ind ian Affair s in the Dep artm ent of the Inte rior , made by Secreta ry of Int eri or 

Andrus, and whereas, the Minne sota Chippewa Tribe sees thi s triu mv ira te as 

comprising a new team, signaling a new day, in which Indi an affairs increa singly 

will be fo r the India n i>eople, by th e Ind ian people, a nd of th e Ind ian i>eople; now, 

there fore, be it resolved th at the Minne sota Chippewa Tri be h ea rti ly endorses th e 

Pre sid ent ial appointment of Fo rre st Gerard to the position of A ssis tan t Secre tary 

of the Interio r for India n Affairs and the Sec reta rial appointme nt of George V. 

Goodwin, Jr. , and Thomas Fredericks , to Deputy Assist ant Secreta ry of the 

Int eri or for Indian Affairs and Associate Solicitor for Ind ian Affairs in the 

Dep artm ent of th e Inte rior, respec tively.

We do hereby cert ify that, the foregoing resolution was duly prese nted and 

acted upon by a vote of eigh t for zero aga inst at a special meeting of the Minnesota Chippew a Tribal Exec utive Committee, a quoru m being present, held on 

Septem ber 7, 1977, at Dulu th Minneso ta.

Arthur Gahbow, President,

Daniel Morrison, Sr.,

Secr etary , The Minnes ota Chippew a Tribe.

The Official Resolution with sig natur es is being m ailed today.

Frederick McDougall,

Executive Director, The Minnesota Chippewa Tribe.

Resolution 3-7 8

Whereas, Forre st Gerard, a member of the Blackfeet Tribe of Montana, has 

been nominated by Pres iden t Ca rte r for the position of Assist ant Secre tary of 

Int erior for Ind ian Affairs, a nd

Where as, Fo rre st Ger ard’s app ointme nt is the firs t of its kin d in the history 

of the American Indian, and

Whereas, the appoi ntment lifts Ind ian Affairs to a new level as a Secr etar iat, 

and

Whereas, the i>osition will enhance Indi an self-determina tion, as idealized by 

the Ind ian Tribes, and

Wher eas, For res t Gera rd is eminen tly well qualified to fill such position, bringing to it a vas t and varied experien ce in areas of health, Ind ian Affairs, and in 

Congre ssional liaison, and

Wherea s, the work of the new Assistan t Secretary of the Interio r for Indian 

Affairs will be supported by the appo intm ent of the Minnesota Chippewa Trib e’s 

form er Exec utive Director, George Vincent Goodwin, Jr. , a member of the White 

Ea rth Baud of Chippewa, as Dep uty Ass istan t Secretary of the Int eri or for 

Ind ian Affairs, made by Secr etary of the Inte rio r Cecil J . Andrus, and

Whereas, the work of the new Assistan t Secre tary of the Interio r for India n 

Affairs will be similarly supp orted by the appoi ntment of Thomas Fredericks, 

a member of the Mand an-Hidatsa, as Associate Solicitor for Ind ian Affairs in 

the Dep artm ent of the Interior, made by Secr etary of Inter ior Andrus, and

Whereas, the Minnesota Chippew a Trib e sees this trium vir ate as comprising
96

a new team, signaling a new day, in which Indian Affairs will increasingly 

be for the Indian people, by the Indian people, and of the Indian people;

Now, therefore be it Resolved, That, the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe heartily 

endorses the presidential appointment of Forre st Gerard to the position of Assistant Secretary of Interior for Indian Affairs and the secretarial appointment 

of George V. Goodwin, Jr., and Thomas Fredericks, to Deputy Assista nt Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs an d Associate Solicitor for Indian Affairs 

in the D epartment of the Interior, respectively.

We do hereby certify that the foregoing resolution was duly presented and 

enacted upon by a vote of 8 for, 0 again st at a special meeting of the Minnesota 

Chippewa Trib al Executive Committee, a quorum being present, held on September 7-8, 1977, at Duluth, Minnesota.

Arthur Gahbow, President,

Daniel Morrison, Sr.,

Secretary, The Minnesota Chippewa Tribe.

National Indian Activities Association,

September 9, 1977.

Senator J ames Abourezk,

U.S. Senate,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : The National Indian Activities Association, a sports 

and recreation program representing some 10,000 Indian participants in local 

and national programs, has actively gone on record as supporting Mr. Forrest 

Gerard's appointment as Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs.

NIAA urges you and your fellow committee members to act as expeditiously 

as possible toward Mr. Gerard’s confirmation so that the Indian business of 

the Department of the I nterior may proceed and advance.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Morris, 

Acting Executive Director.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts,

Executive Department,

Boston, September 2, 1977.

Hon. James Abourezk,

U.S. Senate, D irkscn Senate Office Building,

Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : I appreciate your taking the time to talk to me about 

Forrest Gerard. I am happy to hear tha t his chances are good. This letter is 

pursuant to your request asking tha t I send you confirmation of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, support for Mr. Gerard for the position of Assistant 

Secretary of the Interio r for Indian Affairs.

As I told you on the phone, not only is Mr. Gerard acceptable to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, but it appears to me th at he is the most qualified candidate available for the position.

Thank you fo r your consideration and for your courtesy.

Sincerely, Thomas P. O’Neill III ,

Lieutena nt Governor.

The Papago Tribe of Arizona,

Sells, Ariz., September 7,1977.

Hon. J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, Dirksen Senate Office

Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : In the past the leaders of th is Tribe have had numerous opportunities to work with Mr. Forrest Gerard on Papago problems, and 

have found him to be exceptionally perceptive, innovative, and efficient. It is 

our opinion tha t he would be an outstan ding Secretary of the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs and would provide the type of leadership needed to accomplish the ulti-
97

mat e purpose of the Bureau in its rela tionship with the Ind ian people of thi s 

coun try. The Bure au of Ind ian Affairs has been w itho ut a perm anent head for too long. Its direc tion and progress has been seriously impeded due to the lack of proper leade rship . The Papago Tri be has felt the adve rse effects of the lack of direc­ tion of the Bureau . The Pap ago Tribe urgently requ ests th at this ma tter be remedied immediately by the Comm ittee’s approval of Mr. Fo rre st Gerard's ap­ poin tmen t to the position of Assistan t Secretary of the Bureau of Ind ian Affairs.

Very tru ly yours, Cecil Will iams , Chairman,

Max Norris, Vice Chairman.

Aleu tia n/I ’ribilof I slands Association, I nc.,

Anchorage, Alaska, August 18,1977.

Hon. Sen ator J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, 5331 Dirksen Senate Office

Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk: It is my und erst and ing th at the confirmation he ar­ ings rega rding the appo intm ent of Mr. Fo rre st Ger ard as Ass ista nt Secre tary of Inter ior for Indian Affairs will be held in Washington, D.C. on September 12, 

1977. On beh alf of the Al eutian/P rib ilof Isla nd Association, Inc. which repr esen ts the Aleu ts in the Aleutian Chain area, I wish to go on record as stron gly en­ dorsing the confirmation o f Mr. Ger ard to thi s imp ortant post. We believe th at Mr. Ge rar d’s education and backgr ound would allow him to make Ind ian Self Determ inat ion a reality. Therefore, we requ est that his confirma tion be approved a s soon as possible.

Sincerely, Pat Pletnikoff. 

Executive Director.

Harlem, Mont., September 7, 1911.

Sen ator J ames Abourezk.

The Fo rt Belknap Ind ian Community Council represe ntin g the Assiniboine Tribe and the Grosventr e Tribe wholeheartedly and wit hou t prejudic e endorse the nomin ation of Mr. Fo rre st Gerar d as Ass ista nt Secr etary of t he I nter ior. The Fo rt Belknap Ind ian Community respe ctfully requ ests th at the Senate Inter ior Committee qu it draggi ng the ir feet on Mr. Gerar d’s confirmation. Ind ian country has been wit hou t effective and viable lead ership for too long alre ady. Fu rth er delays on Mr. Gerard ’s confir mation because of politic al in­ fighting within the Senat e In terio r Committee only harm s those of us you purp ort to help. Mr. Gerard has repe ated ly demonstrated h is effectiveness and concern as those of us in elected lea der ship positions str ive to rega in control of our own 

destin y. Becaus e of implied reluctan ce to listen to the voice of the Ind ian people on the Senate Inter ior Committee’s pa rt in essence drag ging th ei r feet on thi s vital confirmation the Fo rt Belk nap Ind ian Community must insi st, no demand, th at Mr. F orr est Ge rard be confirmed withou t delay. Charles J ack Plumage, 

Chairman, Fort Belknap Community Council.

Red Lak e B and of Chippew a I ndia ns, Red Lake, Minn.

RESOLUTIO N NO. 1 2 7 - 7 7

Whereas, President Ca rte r on Jul y 12, 1977, nomi nated Fo rre st J. Gerard, Blackfeet, for the post of As sis tan t Secretary of the Interio r on Ind ian Affairs, 

a n d ; Where as, Fo rre st Gera rd is a member in good stan ding wit h his trib e and has mai ntained close connections wi th th e Ind ians on h is r ese rva tion , and;
98

Wher eas, For rest Ger ard has dem ons trated th at he has a wealth of knowledge on many diversified compo nents of I ndi an Affairs, and ;

Where as, the Red Lake Tr iba l Council concurs with Fo rre st Gerard’s philosophy on Indi an Affairs which is the tru st and stre ngthen ing of Indian Affairs 

to ass ure the p rotection of Ind ian land and oth er na tur al resources and his commitm ent to make the Bureau a more effective instrum ent in c arryin g out its tru st 

responsibi lity.

Now, th erefore, be i t Resolved, Th at the Red Lake Tri bal Council for the Red 

Lake Band of Chippewa India ns hereby strongly endorses and supports the 

nomination of For rest Gera rd and respectfully requ ests th at the Select Committee on Ind ian Affairs quickly confirms his nomination.

Be it fu rth er Resolved, Tha t copies of this resolu tion be sen t to: Pres iden t 

Ca rter, Vice Pres iden t Mondale, and Sena tor Jam es Abourezk, the Minnesota 

Congressional Delegation ; memb ers of the Select Committee, the N ational Triba l 

Chairme n’s A ssociatio n; the National Congress of American Ind ian s ; the Minnesota Chippew a Tribe.

F o r: 10

Aga in st: 0

We do hereby certify th at the foregoing resolu tion was duly presented and 

enac ted upon at the reg ula r meeting of the Tribal Council held on Thursday, 

Augu st 11, 1977, at the Red Lake Tri bal Council Hall, Red Lake, Minnesota.

Roger A. J ouroain, Chairman,

Royce Graves, Sr., Secretary.

Rough Rock School Board, Inc.,

Chinle, Ariz., August 29,1917.

Hon. J ames Abourezk,

Chairman, Indian Subcommittee,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear J ames : I am writin g this let ter on beha lf of the Rough Rock D emonstration School to strongly recommend Fore st Gerar d as Assist ant Secret ary for 

Ind ian Affairs. We feel Mr. Ge rar d brings to the position field experience, experience with Washington, as well as experience with other fede ral agencies.

It is extrem ely essential th at a person such as Fo rre st be appointed who can 

view all Ind ian affa irs with obje ctiv ity as well as compassion. The former Commiss ioner discredited the office of Commissioner by h is gross polit ical maneuverings and his total bias in fav or of Alaska. The Nava jos suffered greatly unde r 

th at ind ividual’s term in office.

We need to have someone with Fo rre st Gerard’s sens itivity and ability. We a t 

Rough Rock hav e known him for longer tha n the life of th e school.

We would appr ecia te it if you would vigorously supp ort thi s outstand ing 

indiv idual .

Sincerely yours,

Dr. Robert A. Roessel, 

Assistant to the Director.

The Navajo Nation,

Window Rock, Navajo Nation (Ariz.), September 6, 1911.

Hon. J ames Abourezk,

U.S. Senate, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Abourezk : Members of the Navajo Area Ind ian Health Board 

have asked me to writ e in their behalf for the purpose of endorsing President 

Ca rte r's nomination of Fo rre st J. Gerar d for the post of Ass ista nt Secretary of 

the In terio r for Ind ian Affairs.

We do not know Mr. Gerar d personally, but his rep utat ion for looking after the 

int ere sts of the Indi an people ha s sprea d thro ugho ut Navajo land. The Navajo 

people have also heard of his ability to work effectively with the Congress of 

the United States.

Mr. Gerard is a Blackfeet Ind ian with an excellent backgr ound and many 

yea rs of experience in worki ng with the Bure au of Ind ian Affairs, the Indians 

Health Service, and the Congress. As you may know, he spen t five and one-half 

yea rs as a professional staf f member for Ind ian affairs with the Senate Commit-
99

tee on Inte rior and Insular Affairs. Because of his experience, we feel that he not only h as a vast knowledge of the problems facing the India n people, but he also has a better understanding of the functions of the Congress. Consequently, we feel tha t he would lend his support to the many legislative issues involving or affecting the Indian people. As Chairman of the Navajo Area Indian Health Board, I speak for the entire membership when I respectfully ask you to consider Mr. Gerard for the position of A ssistant Secretary of the Int erior for Indian Affairs. Sincerely yours,

Dr. Annie Wauneka,

(Fo r Elwood Saganey, Chairman,

Navajo Area Indian Health Board).

Tes ti m on y of th e Small T rib es Orga niza tion of Western Was hing to n Before t h e United Stat es Sen at e Select Com mi tt ee on I nd ian Aff airs Consid er ing th e Nom ina tio n of F orrest Gerard as Ass is ta nt Secretary fob

I nd ian Aff ai rs in th e Dep ar tm en t of I nter ior

The nomination of an Assistan t Secretary for Indian Affairs in many ways might be considered an unusual act for the United States Government. The rea­ son for this is that at no time in the history of the United States has there been a person who occupied such a sta tus in the Executive Branch. The nomination of Assi stant Secretary is unusual in yet another way in tha t the new Democratic administr ation, having taken office on Janu ary 20, 1977, announced its inten­ tions to permit tribal governments to play a direct role in the selection of a nomi­ nee for the post of Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs. Again, it must be noted tha t never in the history of the United States, in its relationship with Indian tribes has such a commitment l>een made to tribal governments, allowing them to play a role in a major policy determination. Those of us who live on the West Coast of this continent took seriously the intent of the new administration when tribal governments were advised tha t their opinions and views on the nomination would play the major role in deter­ mining the nominee. Indeed, before Secretary Cecil Andrus trans mitted a letter to tribal governments requesting th at they communicate their nominee, many tribes throughout the United State s had already announced their views. This was done on the understanding gained in discussions with President Carter's transition team that tribal views would be an important part of Indian affairs policy determination for the adminis tration. So, in December, 1976, many tribal governments transmitted letters, resolutions and/or telegrams to the new Presi­ dent advising him of their views regarding the potential nominee for the Assistant Secretary. The National Congress o f American Indians meeting in January, 1977 in Washington, I).C. expressed wide support for the selection of President Mel Tonasket to serve as the Assistant Secretary. Mr. Chairman, the National Con­ gress of American Indians represents and has participation of some 123 tribal governments. That, Mr. Chairman, is over one th ird of all the tribal governments in the lower North America. After receiving a letter from Secretary Andrus requesting tribal views on the nominee, tribal governments were advised tha t they had until April 11, 1977 to present their views, at which point it was understood nominations would be closed. On April 11, 1977, the Department of Interior reported that the over­ whelming choice of tribal governments was Mel Tonasket. It only became a p­ parent later that the Secretary with other members of the Cart er administra­ tion and perhaps members of the Senate and House, had before April 11 made a determination that Mr. Forrest Gerard would be the admi nistration’s nominee. Indeed, it was still the lielief of many that Mr. Andrus was acting in good 

faith with his original proposition to tribes when he sent Messrs. Tonasket and Gerard's names to the Presiden t for a White House selection. Today, this com­ mittee, a new committee in the Senate, is faced with considering the President’s nominee f or the Assistant Secretary post and that nominee is not a primary can­ didate supported by tribal governments throughout the United States.
100

After it was announced tha t the White House had selected Mr. Gerard as its 

nominee for the Assistan t Secretary post, many t ribal leaders and their governments came to the conclusion that the Carte r administration had lied about its 

intent to respond to trib al government views regarding the nomination. Mr. 

Chairman, many tribal governments and their leaders believe that they had been 

duped by the Carte r administration , but saw’ no alter nativ e to accepting the 

White House determination. As the Chairman might know, there has been no 

public expression of opposition to Forrest Gerard, there has only been public 

support expressed for Mel Tonasket. To support one candidate over other candidates, is not to say you oppose anyone. I t is the refore important to understand 

why tribal governments do not react with resounding opposition to Forrest 

Gerard as nominee, since many of them had chosen to express a positive intent 

rather than negative actions.

Since Forrest Gerard is the nominee, tribal governments must look to addressing issues rathe r than personalities. The issues are these, Mr. Chairman: Does 

the Carter administration intend to deal with Indians on the complex issues 

tha t Indians are faced with, as is the rest of the nation, with a policy of benign 

neglect? Does the Carter administration intend to issue rhetoric and platitud es 

instead of taking positive and deliberate action to in stitue a new’ Federal Indian 

Policy ? The experience of the past eight months suggest th at the C arter administrati on may be interested only in rhetoric and platitudes. Indians are interested 

in action.

We have recently become aware tha t the Carter administration, principally 

the Secretary of Inter ior and his Under-Secretary, Mr. James Joseph, are wary 

of the many proposals for change in the way Indian Affairs is administered by 

the Executive Branch. We have been advised that the Secretary of Interior is 

not interested in forcefully dealing w’ith the required changes in B.I.A. “until 

he finds out w’hat the I ndian s wa nt”.

In the 94th and 95th Congress the American Indian Policy Review’ Commission conducted a 2V£ year study of U.S. Federal Indian Policy. During 

tha t 2V2

 year period, the views of tribal governments, Indian organizations and private Indian citizens w’ere sought regarding the broad panorama 

of issues affecting the lives of Indians and non-Indian citizens. The conclusion 

of tha t report produced an incredible picture of confusion and disarray among 

United States policy makers concerned with Indian affairs during the last 200 

years. The report laid before the Congress a succinct analysis of the problems in 

Federal Indian policy and produced for the first time in the U.S. history, a careful outline for a new Feder al Indian policy. A corner stone to that future Federal 

Indian policy, as noted by the report, is the full recognition of tribal sovereignty 

and complete comprehension of the breadth of the U.S. tru st responsibility. As 

fundamental concepts, the principles of sovereignty and trus t responsibility 

serve as the basis for a proposal to separate the Bureau of Indian Affairs from 

the Department of In terior and the ultimate formation of an independent Ind ian 

Agency. Mr. Chairman, we submit that the Indian views are clear and should 

be well known. Indian nation s and tribes throughout the United States have 

since 1961 formally expressed their view that the United States Government 

ow’es Indian tribes considerable obligations and one of those obligations is the 

creation of an unfettered agency of government with which tribal governments 

may deal.

In 1961, representatives of Indian nations and tribes gathered in Chicago to 

deliver their views regarding national Indian purpose. The more than 400 

representatives noted th at the then present U.S. a dministration of Indian Affairs 

wras inadequate and contrary to the U.S. tru st obligation to elevate the political 

sta tus of tril>es and preserve, protect and guarantee the rights and property of 

Indian tribes and the people they represent. These Indian representatives saw, 

as many non-Indians for years earlier had noted, th at the location of the 

Bureau of Indian Affairs within the Department of Inte rior was conflictual, 

tha t U.S. interests were in conflict w’ith the interests of tribes and tha t the 

location of this conflict was in the Department of In terior.

In 1974 the National Congress of American Indians unanimously adopted 

the “American Indian Declaration of Sovereignty.” Contained in that declaration 

is this very important tho ug ht: that the United States should “establish a single, 

independent. Federal, governmental instrume ntality with concurrence of the 

majority of the recognized aboriginal American Indian tribes and nations, in 

order to implement and g uara ntee the treaty responsibilities and trus t obligations 

of the United States of America, under Article 6 of the Constitution of said 

nation.”
101

The National Congress of American Indians Executive Council in January, 1977 unanimously adopted a trans ition proposal for initiating immediate changes in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The intent of this proposal, which was tran s­ mitted to this committee and to the Carter administration, reflects t he consensus of triba l governments and clearly indicates that tribal governments have at ­ tempted to thoughtfully outline the major changes tha t should be made in the Bureau of Indian Affairs during the first year of the Carte r adminis tration. On Jan uary 12, 1977, a Chicago newspaper published an artic le wherein the President-elect announced his views regarding Indian affairs and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. According to the article , President Carte r was prepared at that point to publicly announce his intention to carry out a systematic B.I.A. transition plan that is in fact the same plan adopted by the National Congress of American Indians. It is the case, therefore, Mr. Chairman, tha t the Congress has prelimi­ narily announced its intentions regardin g Indian affairs through the American Indian Policy Review Commission. The National Congress of American Indians, individual tribal governments and the National Tribal Chairman’s Association have announced their views regarding the needed changes in the Bureau of Indian Affairs and Federal India n policy, and at least as of Janua ry, 1977, President Carte r has announced his determination to enter into a whole new phase of Federal Indian policy as reflected by his remarks reported in the Chicago newspaper. It appears th at everyone agrees that changes should take place. It appears that everyone understands the need fo r dramatic and forceful development of new approaches to Indian affairs, but when i t comes to settling on how to accomplish what everyone wants the tendency for the Department of the Inte rior is to step back and say “what do the Indians want?” Mr. Chairman, it is not a question any longer of what Indians want or for tha t matter what anyone wants; the question that must be asked now is how 

will we do wha t everyone wants. There seems to be a question in the Secretary of Interior’s mind over the advisability of developing a plan for the institution of an independent Indian agency. I t must be pointed out now and perhaps over and over again, the position of Indian country is clear, the position of Congress and the Executive Branch 

is clear. We must move forward. The nomination of Forre st Gerard for the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs post is an important point at which understandings and agreements should be made. There is no point in confirming a nominee to the Assistan t Secretary post if the nominee does not intend to begin the process of changing Federal Indian policy. It makes little sense to confirm a nominee if tha t nominee does not believe that Indians have already established their views on the major 

issues involved in Indian affairs. Mr. Gerard has demonstrated his ability to function in Washington, D.C., as a result of his twelve years working with the Indian Health Service, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Inter ior and Insula r Affairs Committee in the Senate. There remains a question of how he will work with the 368 triba l governments. As would be the case with any nominee being considered by this committee for confirmation, approval by the committee must be predicated on conditions. We would submit to this committee th at the conditions for confirmation must extend 

to the following: 1. That the new Assistant Secretary shall immediately commence the imple­ mentation of the transition proposal regarding the Bureau of Indian Affairs as adopted by the National Congress of American Indians and as announced by 

the President of the United States. 2. The Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs should immediately begin plan­ ning the development and institu tionalization of an independent agency for 

Indian affairs. 3. The Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs should call a national meeting with all triba l Chairmen to outline a proposed process for the implementation of the transition plan and the establishment of an independent Indian agency. 4. The Assistant Secretary, the Secretary of I nter ior and the President of the United States must commit themselves to carrying out the transition plan with all deliber ate speed by answering questions put by this committee, publicly indicating thei r willingness to carry out the plan. 5. This committee must have the assurance of the Secretary of Inter ior that the Assistan t Secretary for Indian Affairs will appear before this committee at two month intervals to report his progress toward meeting the goals set out by the transition plan and goals he has outlined for the development of an independent Indian agency.
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6. The Assi stant Sec reta ry mu st be prep ared to pre sen t to members of thi s 

comm ittee a wri tten repo rt desc ribing actio ns he has tak en to fac ilit ate trib al 

govern ment particip atio n in th e transition process, providing an assessm ent of 

the effectiveness of proce dures involving trib al government particip atio n.

Mr. Chair man, there is no ex cuse f or inacti on by th e Congress or the Executive 

Bran ch inso far as Ind ian aff air s are concerned. Tri bal governments have in the 

course of the past 40 yea rs presented a consis tent series of recommendations to 

the United States . The re shou ld no longer be any question of wh at the Ind ians 

wa nt and need and require.

The American Ind ian Policy Review Commission placed its collective finger 

on the cen tral issue facing the United Stat es in its rela tion s with Indian natio ns 

and trib es when it asked “is the American natio n—now 200 years old and 100 fu ll 

yea rs beyond the err or of the Little Big Horn—yet ma ture enough and secure 

enough to tolerate, even to encourage, within the larger cult ure, societies of 

Ind ian people who wish to ma intain the ir uniqu e triba l governm ents, culture s 

and relig ions ?” The founda tion s for change have been built by the record of 

testim ony before the Congress prese nted by Indians , by resolutio ns adopte d by 

trib es and transm itte d to the nation al governm ent and by the testimony of 

tri ba l leade rship and oth er India ns before the American Ind ian Policy Review 

Commission. The record reve als th at Ind ians clearl y und ers tan d the risks and 

consequences if a nationa l gove rnme nt exerci ses a policy of benign neglect. 

Ind ian s have recorded the ir views in a way th at c alls for dra ma tic change. The 

United Sta tes must risk to meet the challenge. It can begin to meet the challenge 

by comm itting itself and the nominee to fulfill the desp erat e needs of the Indi an 

people throu gh positive, delibe rate and cons istent actions. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman .

Osage Tribal Council, 

Pawhuska, Okla., September 12, 1977.

ST AT EM EN T FOR INCL US IO N IN TH E RECORD OF TH E CO NFIRM ATION HE AR ING S CONCE RN ING TH E NO MIN AT IO N OF MR. FORREST J. GERARD TO BE ASS IS TANT SECRETARY

OF THE INTE RIOR FOR IN D IA N AF FA IR S

My name is Sylvester J. Tin ker , duly elected Princip al Chief of the Osage 

Tri be of Ind ians of Oklahoma. Th is stat ement is being presented for and in beha lf of the Osage Tribal Council, the duly elected governing body of the Osage 

Tri be of Ind ians of Oklahoma, which endorses and unanimously suppo rts Pre sident Ca rte r’s nomination of Mr. Fo rre st J. Gerard for the post of Ass istan t 

Secreta ry of the Int erior for Ind ian Affairs.

It is the consensus of the Osage Tribal Council th at Mr. Gerard possesses the 

integr ity, acumen, and knowledge of the problems of Ind ian people necessary to 

perf orm the du ties and responsibilities of th is position. His experien ce as a member of the professional staff fo r the Senate Subcommittee on Int erior Affairs 

and his involvement in the development of various Acts of Congress rela ting to 

Ind ian Affairs, including the Ind ian Self-D etermination and Educa tion Assistance Act, the Indian Fina ncin g Act, and the Ind ian Health Care Improvement 

Act qu alifies him for thi s im po rtant position.

It is respec tfully requested th at the nomination of Mr. Fo rre st J. Gerard be 

favo rably recommended to the Senate so t ha t the Bureau of Ind ian Affairs may 

hav e a director since thi s position has been vac ant for alm ost a year resulting 

in def err ed action s on many pending Indi an ma tters of urg ent importance.

Respectfully subm itted,

Sylvester ,T. Tink er,

Principal Chief.

Statement of Yakima I ndian Nation Before United States Senate Select

Committee on Indian Affa irs on th e Confirmation of Assistant Secretary

for I ndian Affairs

My name is William F. Yallup, Vice Chai rman of the Yakima Trib al Council 

of the Yakima Indian Nation . The Yakima Indi an Nation is pleased to present 

thi s statem ent in supp ort of th e nomination of For res t J. Ger ard to be t he first
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Assistant Secretary of the Inte rior for Indian Affairs. We wish to congratulate 

Preside nt Carter for this selection from among tlie fine candidates proposed for this office. While we know tha t the selection of one candidate over the many fine ones proposed was not easy, we totally support the final selection of Forrest J. 

Gerard. We sincerely hope tha t this nomination is speedily approved by this Select Committee and the Senate so t ha t the nominee can assume this position and give direction to the Bureau of Indian Affairs th at has been without necessary direction for some ten months. The Yakima Nation has known Mr. Gerard for some time and we think we know him well. We first came into contact with him when he worked as Tribal Relations Officer for the Division of Indian Health. We have been in contact with him ever since th at time and have worked with him and have observed his service as a congressional fellow for Representative Uhlman and George Mc­ Govern, his service in the Bureau of Indian Affairs Legislative office and his service as Director of Office of Indian Progress in the Department of Health, 

Education, and Welfare. All of the service was in the best interests of the Indian people as was his service as staff member for the Senate Committee on Inter ior and Insular Affairs. His service as a staffe r for the Interio r Committee, we believe, has shown to many of you on this committee that Forrest J. Gerard is a man of high in­ tegrity who is fair and honest in his dealings and dedicated to advancing the Indian position. This committee is well aware of the job tha t Mr. Gerard did in assisting the Senate in passing many important pieces of Indian legislation among which the Indian Self Determination Act, the Indian Finance Act, and the Indian Health Act are landma rks important enough to note here. Mr. Gerard uniquely possesses among the personal assets tha t we have noted, an exceptional professional experience in Indian affairs. The importance of his qualities to fulfill this job cannot be underestimated. In elevating the Com­ missioner of Indian Affairs to an Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs. Secre­ tary Andrus is serving notice tha t the Department of the Interior is ready to fully assume its duties of tru st responsibiity to the Indian people. The job is a big one. This committee is well aw are of the climate th at enemies of Indian interests wish to create in Washington to retard the progress tha t the Indian people are making. We believe tha t Forrest Gerard as Assistant Secretary can be very helpful in not only assisting them in this program, but can assist this nation in 

keeping its promises to the Indian people. We want to thank this committee for providing t his Yakima Nation with the opportunity to say a few words on behalf of our honored and respected friend 

Forrest J. Gerard.

E X E C U T IV E S E S S IO N

T uesday, S eptember 13, 1977

The Select Committee on Indian Affairs met in open session on 

September 13, 1977 at 10:15 a.m. in room 6202 of the Dirksen Senate 

Office Building to consider the nomination of Forrest J . Gerard, to be 

Assistant Secretary of the Interior.

Those present were Senator Abourezk, Chairman; Senator Hatfield, 

and Senator Melcher. Represented by proxy were: Senator Metzenbaum and Senator Bartlett.

With out objection, the nomination of Forrest J. Gerard, to be Assista nt Secretary of the Interior, was unanimously ordered favorably 

reported to the Senate.

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