U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

SKYWEST AIRLINES 

BEFORE: 

FAA DOCKET NO. 

2012NM0650025 

FDMS NO. 

FAA-2013-0292 

Wednesday 

February 19, 2014 

1:00 p.m. 

U.S. Tax Court 

125 South State Street 

Room 5223 

Salt Lake City, Utah 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

Administrative Judge 

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APPEARANCES 

FOR THE FAA: 

ROBERT SPITZER, ESQ. 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Northwest Mountain Region, ANM-7 

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

1601 Lind Avenue, S.W. 

Renton, Washington 98057 

425.227.1417 

FOR SKYWEST AIRLINES: 

TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. 

Director, Government and Legal Affairs 

SKYWEST AIRLINES, INC. 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

435.634.3530 

temerson®skywest.com 

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CONTENTS 

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

ROY RASMUSSEN 626 654 662 

EXHIBITS 

AGENCY NO. 

12 Dr. Rasmussen's Curriculum Vita 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 (1:00 p.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the 

4 continuation of -- it's the continuation of 

5 the case of SkyWest Airlines, FAA-2013-292. 

6 We're in -- this is Wednesday, February 19th, 

7 and this is the rebuttal portion of the Agency 

8 case. 

9 Mr. Spitzer? 

10 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

11 Honor. For rebuttal the Agency calls Dr. Roy 

12 Rasmussen. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: If you'll come up 

14 here and stand and raise your right hand. 

15 (Witness sworn.) 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

17 THE WITNESS: You want me to sit 

18 here? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, please be 

20 seated there. And state your full name for the 

21 record and spell your first and last name. 

22 THE WITNESS: Roy Rasmussen, 

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1 R-0-Y, R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

3 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 ROY RASMUSSEN, 

6 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 

7 was examined and testified as follows: 

8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

9 BY MR. SPITZER: 

10 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Rasmussen, can 

11 you please state your current occupation for 

12 the record? 

13 A I'm an atmospheric scientist at 

14 the National Center for Atmospheric Research 

15 in Boulder, Colorado. 

16 Q And how long have you held that 

17 position for? 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 Doctor? 

21 A 

22 Q 

Let's see. About 23 years. 

Do you have a college degree, 

Yes. 

And where did you receive that 

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1 degree from? 

2 A Wheaton College in Wheaton, 

3 Illinois. 

4 Q And what was the degree in? 

5 A Physics and math. 

6 Q Do you have any higher education 

7 outside of college? 

8 A Yes. I have a master's and Ph.D. 

9 in atmospheric science from University of 

10 California, Los Angeles. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, have to warn 

12 you. My wife went to UCLA. There'll be no 

13 discussion of USC in this courtroom. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Doctor, while you 

17 were at the University of California what was 

18 the -- what was the focus of your work there? 

19 A I specialized in cloud physics and 

20 looking at the -- my Ph.D. thesis was actually 

21 on melting hail and studies of hail formation. 

22 Q And, Dr. Rasmussen, after you 

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1 graduated from the University of California, 

2 where did you go to work? 

3 A I worked at National Center for 

4 Atmospheric Research for two years, and then 

5 I left there, worked at the Bureau of 

6 Reclamation for three years, and then I came 

7 back to NCAR after that. 

8 Q And NCAR stands for what, Doctor? 

9 A National Center for Atmospheric 

10 Research. 

11 Q And during the course of your 

12 employment at NCAR, what have -- what's been 

13 the focus of your work there? 

14 A My main focus has been on aircraft 

15 icing and de- icing and essentially any weather 

16 associated with aircraft operations in the 

17 winter. 

18 Q Now, have you had the opportunity 

19 to -- to do any research on this subject? 

20 A Yes. I've done extensive 

21 research. I have many publications related to 

22 this area. 

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1 Q Specifically with respect to 

2 frost, have you done any research with respect 

3 to frost sublimation or formation? 

4 A Yes. We've done some measurements 

5 at a field site that's just south of Boulder, 

6 Colorado, called Marshall, and we've measured 

7 frost, we've done reports about frost 

8 measurements, and so we've done a fair amount 

9 of research on frost. The reason why is 

10 because it it has such an impact on 

11 takeoff, potentially has an impact on takeoff. 

12 And so the FAA asked us to research ways to 

13 detect frost so that the pilots would know 

14 when the frost is actively occurring. 

15 Q And as part of your research, have 

16 you had the opportunity to give any 

17 presentations or write any papers on this 

18 subject? 

19 A We've written reports on this 

20 particular topic and given presentations at 

21 FAA meetings. 

22 Q Have you done any other work with 

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1 respect to aviation icing in the course of 

2 your employment or research? 

3 A I've done research on infl ight 

4 icing, so that's the supercooled cloud water 

5 in clouds. That's been my main area. I've 

6 also done a lot of work on snowfall. If you 

7 look outside the window, this is my specialty, 

8 looking at the visibility of snow and 

9 estimating the -- the water content. This is 

10 heavy, wet snow, and this is especially 

11 hazardous for aircraft de-icing. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, 

13 permission to approach? 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

15 MR. SPITZER: And, Your Honor, you 

16 have to bear with me. I believe we're on 

17 Exhibit No. 9 that was the most recent 

18 exhibit that was accepted into evidence. Your 

19 Honor, it looks like --

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Nine was the print 

21 screen of the frost pictures, so Exhibit 10. 

22 MR. SPITZER: Ten -- it looks like 

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1 we have an Exhibit 10, so this should be 

2 Exhibit 11, I believe. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

4 MR. SPITZER: So I'd like to 

5 present the witness with what has been 

6 previously marked as Administrator's Exhibit 

7 11. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so you don't 

9 get in trouble with your own witness, he went 

10 to UCLA as opposed to some of the other 

11 University of California schools. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's a touchy 

15 subject. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, do 

19 you recognize this exhibit? 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

Yes. 

What is this? 

This is my curriculum vita. 

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1 Q And does this this document 

2 contain a fair and accurate representation of 

3 your research and educational and work 

4 history? 

5 A Yes, it does. 

6 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I would 

7 like to offer what has been previously marked 

8 Administrator's Exhibit 11 into evidence. 

9 MR. EMERSON: No objection. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 11 

11 for identification is received in evidence as 

12 Respondent's 11. 

13 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, it 

14 should be Administrator's Exhibit 11. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. 

16 Administrator's Agency Exhibit 11 is 

17 received into evidence as Agency Exhibit 11. 

18 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, 

21 have you given any presentations concerning 

22 frost and its melting or sublimation rates? 

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1 A Yes. 

2 Q Where at? 

3 A At the Society of Automotive 

4 Engineers ground de-icing meetings that are 

5 held annually at different locations. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, the Court 

7 needs to make a correction. This should be 

8 Agency Exhibit 12 as opposed to 11, according 

9 to my spreadsheet. So Agency Exhibit 12 for 

10 identification is received into evidence as 

11 Agency Exhibit 12. 

12 (AGENCY EXHIBIT NO. 12 WAS 

13 RECEIVED.) 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Eleven was the 

15 NASA contractor report 3129, which was about 

16 seven pages. Ten was 2150 -- no? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: I have 

18 this was 10. 

19 

20 8. 

21 

22 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I have no Exhibit 

JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. So I show 

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1 the photo on November 425, the right fuselage 

2 as 9. Ten as 

3 MR. SPITZER: -- the 2150, Your 

4 Honor. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: I've got the 

6 sanction I have marked the sanction 

7 guidance as Exhibit 10. I've got the NASA 

8 Contractor Report 3129 marked as Agency 

9 Exhibit 11. That's what I've got, Diane. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we have 

11 no objection to renumbering this No. 12. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: That ' s the Court ' s 

13 error. So the CV would be Agency 12. 

14 Sorry, Counsel. Go ahead. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, at this 

16 time the Administrator would look to offer Dr. 

17 Rasmussen as an expert in the field of 

18 aviation weather, specifically frost's 

19 formation and sublimation and melting. 

20 

21 voir dire? 

22 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you like to 

MR. EMERSON: No, Your Honor. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN : The Court will 

2 accept the witness as an expert in the area 

3 proffered. 

4 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

5 Honor. 

6 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, in 

7 preparation for this testimony today, did you 

8 review any documents? 

9 A Yes, I did. 

10 Q Which documents did you review? 

11 A I reviewed Dr. Perry's report, and 

12 I also reviewed some photographs of the frost 

13 and a photograph of the aircraft. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, 

15 permission to approach? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

17 A And also the the NASA I 

18 believe it was the NASA Contractor Report on 

19 frost. 

20 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I 1 d like 

21 to present the witness with what has been 

22 previously marked as Respondent's Exhibit 4. 

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1 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, is 

2 Exhibit 4 a copy of the expert report of Dr. 

3 Perry that you reviewed in preparation for 

4 this trial? 

5 A Yes. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 4, is 

7 that correct? 

8 MR. SPITZER: Respondent's 4, 

9 correct. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I just want to 

11 make sure we keep the record straight. Okay. 

12 Q (By MR. SPITZER) And, Dr. 

13 Rasmussen, did you have a chance to come to 

14 any conclusions concerning the Respondent's 

15 conclusion at the end of his expert consulting 

16 report? 

17 A Yes, I did. 

18 Q Now, turning to this expert 

19 report, Dr. Rasmussen, can you explain the 

20 concept behind the-- Dr. Perry's conclusion 

21 that the frost would have melted in the 16 

22 minutes that the aircraft taxied out to the 

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1 runway? 

2 A Yes. The concept is that the 

3 solar heating would have caused the frost to 

4 sublimate and potentially melt as well. 

5 MR. EMERSON: Object to the 

6 question as it misstates evidence already in 

7 the record. Dr. Perry --

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

9 MR. EMERSON: did not testify 

10 it would be 16 minutes. His testimony was 11 

11 minutes. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

13 Rephrase the question. 

14 MR. SPITZER: Absolutely, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, 

17 did you come to any opinions with respect to 

18 the conclusion drawn by Dr. Perry in his 

19 expert report where he calculated that the 

20 aircraft's the frost on the aircraft's 

21 wings would have sublimated in the 11 minutes 

22 that aircraft taxied from the -- from its gate 

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1 to the runway? 

2 MR. EMERSON: Same objection, Your 

3 Honor. There's -- there are no minutes or 

4 times in this report at all about when the 

5 frost would sublimate. The Counsel is offering 

6 evidence that was prior put on the stand which 

7 Mr. Rasmussen was not here to hear which was 

8 my objection last week. This witness should 

9 be limited only to the report in evidence 

10 that's in front of him and not be commenting 

11 on evidence that he wasn't here to hear in the 

12 first place. 

13 MR. SPITZER: Well, Your Honor, 

14 he's an expert and he's able to review 

15 whatever he reviewed. 

16 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Doctor --

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: He can comment on 

18 the report in so far as he's reviewed it. But 

19 the -- the objection is well founded in the 

20 sense is that it it goes in the time 

21 parameters which we're not --

22 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, we'll 

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1 rephrase the question for simplicity. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's sustained 

3 the question is sustained in the manner in 

4 which it was presented. 

5 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, 

s did you come to any conclusions concerning the 

9 conclusions drawn by Dr. Perry in his expert 

10 consulting report which appears as Exhibit No. 

11 4? 

12 A Yes. Yes, I have. 

13 Q Now, reviewing this expert 

14 consulting report, can you describe the -- the 

15 method by which Dr. Perry calculated that the 

16 frost would have sublimated off of the 

17 aircraft's wings? 

18 A Yes. He he calculated an 

19 energy balance of the incoming longwave or 

20 infrared radiation and the solar radiation and 

21 also the heat transfer into the wing. 

22 Q Did he also come 

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1 conclusions concerning the amount of frost on 

2 the aircraft wing? 

3 A He did calculate an amount of 

4 energy that might need to be expended with the 

5 other heat balance equation in order to melt 

6 it. That calculation was based on a NASA 

7 report where he estimated a thickness of the 

8 frost and for that thickness and density he 

9 calculated the joules per meter squared that 

10 would be needed to melt and completely 

11 evaporate. 

12 Q Dr. Rasmussen, what's the 

13 significance of these two numbers as they 

14 relate to each other? 

15 A I'm sorry. Which two numbers? 

16 Q The amount of energy required to 

17 melt the frost or sublimate the frost and the 

18 total amount of energy that was available on 

19 that day. 

20 A So if the energy available from 

21 the solar radiation or the heat balance or the 

22 energy balance that he calculated is greater 

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1 than the amount of energy required to 

2 sublimate the frost, then the frost would have 

3 disappeared in the time period estimated in 

4 the report, which was 17 minutes. 

5 Q Doctor, turning to the amount of 

6 frost that Dr. Perry calculated, do you have 

7 any opinions on the accuracy of of the 

8 number that he calculated? 

9 A Based on on the you're 

10 referring to the amount of frost on the wing? 

11 Q That's correct. 

12 A Based on the estimate that that 

13 the frost was visible and based on the 

14 photograph that I saw, in my view the the 

15 estimated frost was on the order of . 1 

16 millimeters, which is the order of paper 

17 thickness, and the estimate that's in the 

18 report is about half of a paper thickness. So 

19 the -- my suggestion might be that it might 

20 have been double the amount of frost than was 

21 estimated in the report based on -- on that 

22 analysis. 

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1 Q What effect would doubling the 

2 amount of frost have on the energy required to 

3 sublimate the frost that was calculated by Dr. 

4 Perry? 

5 A That would double the amount of 

6 energy required to eliminate the frost. 

7 Q In coming to this conclusion, did 

8 you review any documents outside of the expert 

9 report provided by Mr. -- or Dr. Perry? 

10 A I did review the NASA report and 

11 came up with the density that was in the 

12 report based on the Figure 17, and that was .1 

13 grams percent centimeter squared -- cubed, I 1 m 

14 sorry, which was for that particular data. 

15 Q Is that density the same density 

16 that was calculated by Dr. Perry? 

17 A I believe so. 

18 Q Turning now to Dr. Perry 1 s portion 

19 of the expert report where he calculates the 

20 total amount of energy that would have been 

21 available to be absorbed by the wing on the 

22 subject flight, do you have any conclusions as 

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643 

1 to the accuracy of that number? 

2 A Yes. I reviewed the heat balance 

3 equation on the top of page 7 in his report, 

4 and that equation says that the Q, which is 

5 the heat balance, is equal to 284 

6 Q Dr. Rasmussen, if I may interrupt 

7 you, what is -- what is the heat balance? 

8 A The heat balance equation is 

9 Equation 4 on page 5, and it looks at the heat 

10 balance between the infrared radiation, solar 

11 radiation, and the heat conducted into the 

12 wing itself. And the -- that heat balance 

13 will determine whether the wing is heating or 

14 cooling. 

15 Q Now, looking at this equation 

16 which appears on the top of page 7 in Exhibit 

17 4, do you have any-- can you explain to the 

18 Court what each of these numbers represents? 

19 A Yes. The first number, 284.5, 

20 represents the amount of infrared heating 

21 that's coming from the sky. That's 

22 essentially what, say, a fire puts out. It's 

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1 you can't you can't see it. It's 

2 invisible, but it's essentially the thermal 

3 radiation from the sky. The next term, the 

4 8.3, is the solar radiation. That's the sun, 

5 solar heating. That's the visible radiation. 

6 Next term, minus 271.9, that's the 

7 cooling due to the wing itself emitting 

8 infrared radiation. So that's again invisible 

9 radiation. And the last term is the heat 

10 conducted into the into the wing, and 

11 that's set to zero as as that's essentially 

12 a balance situation. And the net of all those 

13 terms is plus 20.9 watts per -- per square 

14 meter. 

15 Now, when I looked at this 

16 equation, what concerned me was that when I 

17 set solar radiation to zero, which is that 

18 8.3, which would be the nighttime impact, we 

19 would still get a positive heating. That 

20 means that -- that you could not get frost at 

21 night with these terms. And yet if you also 

22 look in the report at the beginnin::J of the 

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1 report, it says that there was frost observed 

2 on exposed surfaces. So there was clearly 

3 ongoing frost, which means that these two 

4 terms when subtracted actually need to be 

5 negative. 

6 So I went back and looked at the 

7 Stephan-Bol tzman equation which is on page 5. 

8 And if you look at that equation, it was for 

9 a black body. Now, the wing is not a black 

10 body. The wing is aluminum, silver. 

11 Q Doctor, can you explain for the 

12 Court what the term "black body" means? 

13 A It means that the body is -- is, 

14 you know, black like this -- you know, dark in 

15 color, black. And it radiates efficiently as 

16 a -- whatever temperature it is. So if it's 

17 -- if it's the temperature of the sun, the sun 

18 radiates at a very warm temperature. When you 

19 look at a desk, a black desk, it radiates at 

20 a very cool temperature, so the energy from 

21 there is a very shortwave -- longwave, I'm 

22 sorry, so you can't say it. But the sun is 

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1 visible, so you can actually see that. 

2 Q Can you explain 

3 A Go ahead. 

4 Q Can you explain the the 

5 significance of black body radiation as it 

6 pertains to this equation on page 5? 

7 A The way the term for the 

8 infrared heat from the sky and from -- also 

9 from the wing itself was calculated from the 

10 black body equation, which is the 

11 Stephan-Boltzman equation he mentioned in 

12 Equation 3 on page 4, so E equals sigma T to 

13 the fourth. And what's missing in this 

14 equation is an emissivity. That's a factor 

15 that's multiplied by the sigma. So when you 

16 have a silver body like a wing, it's not a 

17 perfect black body because it has lighter 

18 color, so it has to be reduced. 

19 If you look at aluminum, the 

20 factor that you have to reduce that equation 

21 by is a .1 to .2 depending on whether it's 

22 pure aluminum or an oxidized aluminum. 

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1 that number, 284.5, should be reduced by a 

2 factor of 80 to 90 percent. So that term's 

3 too high in my opinion. 

4 Q Just for clarification, Doctor, 

5 are you saying that a silver object will 

6 radiate less energy than a black object? 

7 A Yes, significantly less, 80 to 90 

8 percent less energy. 

9 Q And why is that? 

10 A Because it it is not as 

11 effective a radiator as a black body. Black 

12 body emits much more efficiently than a silver 

13 body. 

14 Q Turning now back to the equation 

15 that appears on the top of page 7. The --

16 this report has a value of 284.5 for the 

17 infrared-- infrared radiation absorbed from 

18 the atmosphere. Do you agree with that 

19 number? 

20 A No. That's the number that needs 

21 to be reduced by 80 to 90 percent. So I would 

22 estimate that number is much closer to, say, 

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1 28 watts per square meter, 10 percent. 

2 Q And what effect would would 

3 changing that number -- withdrawn. 

4 Dr. Rasmussen, why do you believe 

5 that that number should be reduced? 

6 A Because the wing is a much less 

7 efficient radiator of -- than a black body. 

8 So if the wing were black, that would be the 

9 right number. But since it's silver, it has 

10 to be reduced by 90 -- 80 to 90 percent. 

11 Q How about the number for -- for 

12 the heating or radiation absorbed from the 

13 atmosphere, do you agree with that number? 

14 A So that's the same number that 

15 we've just been talking about: 284.5. The --

16 the radiation from the wing itself is the 

17 271.9, and that number, I believe, is also 

18 I'm sorry, you're right. The number so 

19 it's -- strike what I just said. 

20 The radiation from the atmosphere 

21 is the 271.9, so you're correct. And in terms 

22 of that number, that is assuming that the 

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1 ambient temperature of the air which was 

2 estimated in --

3 Q Sorry, Doctor, just to -- just to 

4 just to clarify, which number are we 

5 talking about right now? 

6 A The 271.9, which is the radiation 

7 from the atmosphere. 

8 Q So 

9 A So that number is estimated also 

10 from the Stephan-Botzmanequation which is the 

11 Equation 3, and it uses for the temperature 

12 the ambient air temperature which I believe is 

13 minus 7, minus 8. And that's -- that's the 

14 number that is calculated. However, this is 

15 assuming that the air radiates as a black 

16 body. 

17 However, oxygen and nitrogen which 

18 makes up 99 percent of the air does not 

19 radiate as a black body for these wave lengths 

20 -- or for infrared radiation. The only gases 

21 that radiate are ozone, water vapor, and 

22 carbon dioxide. And they are much lower 

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1 concentrations and so they radiate much less 

2 than the 271.9. And in fact it they 

3 typically radiate less than the black body 

4 from the wing itself. 

5 So in order for there to -- frost 

6 to be formed when there's no sunlight, that 

7 term from the atmosphere has to be less than 

8 the term of emission from the wing. So that 

9 had-- if the number for the emission from the 

10 wing was --or from the atmosphere was 284.5, 

11 then that would have to be less than that. 

12 Q Approximately how much less than 

13 284.5 should that number be, in your opinion? 

14 A In order for frost formation, the 

15 amount of energy from the atmosphere has to 

16 be, I -- I would guess, 10 to 20 percent, 30 

17 percent less than the -- than the emission 

18 from the -- the surface itself, otherwise it 

19 would heat. 

20 Q Now, do these numbers change if 

21 if the aircraft is -- if the sun rises or as 

22 the sun rises, the infrared radiation absorbed 

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1 and the infrared radiation transmitted by the 

2 aircraft? 

3 A If the temperature of the wing 

4 stays the same, then the emission of infrared 

5 radiation stays the same. The atmospheric 

6 probably stays the same as well. The only 

7 thing that's changing in this equation is the 

8 solar radiation which increases rapidly, of 

9 course. I don't disagree with that number. 

10 Q Which number is that for 

11 clarification? 

12 A 8. 3. 

13 Q So taking into account what you've 

14 just explained to us, Dr. Rasmussen, could you 

15 explain what effect that would have on what 

16 you believe the correct amount of energy 

17 absorbed by the wing was at the time of this 

18 flight detailed in this report? 

19 A So if in fact the radiation 

20 emitted by the wing was on the order of 28 

21 watts per square meter and -- and the other 

22 term was less than that, the other term 

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1 meaning the radiation coming down, and it 

2 could be as little as 50 percent of that, then 

3 instead of a heating of 20.9 watts it would be 

4 a negative number. So it would still be 

5 cooling even though the sun came out because 

6 the -- the solar radiation term is not large 

7 enough to overcome the negative cooling that's 

8 still going on due to the infrared. 

9 Q And what overall effect would that 

10 have on the conclusion of this report? 

11 A That would invalidate this 

12 conclusion. 

13 Q Why would that invalidate the 

14 conclusion? 

15 A Because we would -- we would not 

16 be getting net heating on the wing, we would 

17 be getting net cooling. 

18 Q Dr. Rasmussen, in reviewing this 

19 this report produced by Dr. Perry and the 

20 weather values assumed by him as well as the 

21 information from the file that you reviewed, 

22 do you have any conclusions about whether the 

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1 aircraft departed with frost on its wings? 

2 MR. EMERSON : Objection. That 

3 goes beyond the scope of rebuttal testimony. 

4 That's this should come in the case in 

5 chief. He can testify about, as he has, his 

6 opinion about the veracity of the report. But 

7 to formulate his own opinion as to whether or 

8 not frost is on the wings, he hasn't even 

9 begun to go through the calculations to get 

10 there or 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

12 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 Your Honor, we have no further 

15 questions. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Cross? 

17 Just so you know, Dr. Rasmussen, 

18 while you went to UCLA, the other witness went 

19 to Iowa State where my dad went, so it's going 

20 to be an interesting case to resolve. I've 

21 got my dad versus my wife on either side. 

22 MR. EMERSON : I'm afraid she has 

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1 more persuasive power probably than your 

2 father at this point. 

3 MR. SPITZER: Is that all it 

4 hinges on, Your Honor? 

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. EMERSON: 

7 Q Dr. Rasmussen, my name's Todd 

8 Emerson. I represent SkyWest Airlines. Good 

9 afternoon. 

10 A Good afternoon. 

11 Q Did you evaluate the moisture in 

12 the NASA model that you found in Dr. -- or Dr. 

13 Perry's report? 

14 A I noted it, yes. 

15 Q Did you note that there was 3.6 

16 times more moisture in that model than was 

17 present at Salt Lake International on the 

18 morning of December 7, 2011? 

19 A That's what's stated in the 

20 report, yes. 

21 Q What effect would that have if 

22 there was less moisture in the air? 

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1 A In terms of the frost formation? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A There would be compared to 

4 Figure 17, there would be less frost which was 

5 well, what you were -- with the 

6 Q By the order of what? 

7 A with the which the report 

8 refers to. 

9 I haven't done that calculation. 

10 I don't know. 

11 Q Now, the model -- and I believe 

12 your testimony ignores any energy coming from 

13 the wing itself. Is that correct? 

14 A No. His term the term "H" 

15 actually takes that into account. And the 

16 fact that there's zero heat transfer assumes 

17 that the wing is exactly the same temperature 

18 as the cold soaked fuel. 

19 Q What if it wasn't, what if that 

20 wing was receiving a heat source, would that 

21 impact the way that the frost was sublimated? 

22 A If it was receiving a heat source, 

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1 it would obviously increase the temperature. 

2 MR. SPITZER: Objection, Your 

3 Honor. This goes beyond the scope of my 

4 redirect, and there's been nothing to show 

5 that there is a heat source. This is purely 

6 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

8 MR. SPITZER: -- speculative. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

10 Q (By MR. EMERSON) I didn 1 t hear 

11 your answer, Doctor. 

12 A I'm sorry? 

13 Q I didn't hear your answer. 

14 A I said yes. If there was a heat 

15 source, obviously that would have to be taken 

16 into account in the heat balance equation. 

17 Q And that heat source, you said it 

18 would cause the temperature to go up on the 

19 wing? 

20 A It would change the heat balance. 

21 It would depend on the relative magnitude of 

22 terms. So if the cooling was larger than the 

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1 heat source, it would still cool. That's why 

2 you do a heat balance or an energy balance. 

3 Q So with a heat source coming from 

4 inside the wing, that would affect the heat 

5 balance in a way that the wing's temperature 

6 would rise? 

7 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 Q (By MR. EMERSON) What effect would 

10 that have on the frost? 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. Beyond 

12 the scope. 

13 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Did you note in 

14 Dr. Perry's report that he noted the 

15 reflectivity of aluminum? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q At 93 percent? 

18 A For visible radiation. 

19 Q Yeah. Do you know what the 

20 reflectivity of frost is? 

21 A 

22 Q 

Not off the top of my head, no. 

Would you expect it to be more or 

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1 less than 93 percent? 

2 A I would guess about the same. 

3 Q You testified that you were shown 

4 a photograph of the wing. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Do you have that with you? 

7 MR. EMERSON: I don't know if he 

8 was shown a trial exhibit or --

9 MR. SPITZER: It's -- it's that. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Trial exhibit? 

11 MR. SPITZER: Uh-huh. 

12 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Did you note the 

13 color of that wing? 

14 A Yes. It was silver. 

15 (Counsel confer.) 

16 MR . EMERSON : I 'm not going to 

17 offer that as an exhibit, Rob. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: You mean I don't 

19 get show and tell? 

20 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Doctor, I've 

21 placed in front of you a paint sample used on 

22 SkyWest airplanes that are painted with a 

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1 Delta livery. In front of you that cover is 

2 gray. It's marked as gray. Or would you 

3 agree that it's gray or is it a different 

4 color? 

5 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'm 

6 going to object to this. This is beyond the 

7 scope. This is not something that's -- was in 

8 the expert report. The expert report says 

9 what it says. That's what Dr. Rasmussen used 

10 in his -- in his preparations for trial today. 

11 Anything else, adding new exhibits or pieces 

12 of the wing, is -- this should have come in 

13 the case in chief and it's well beyond the 

14 scope of my direct examination of this 

15 rebuttal witness. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 

17 overrule. I'll allow limited inquiry. 

18 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Would you expect 

19 that well, let's ask the question. 

20 A Can you repeat the question? 

21 Q What color is that? 

22 A It looks silvery-gray to me. 

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1 Q Would you expect that color in 

2 front of you to have the same reflectivity as 

3 polished aluminum? 

4 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, your 

5 Honor --

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

7 MR. SPITZER: this is well 

8 beyond the scope. 

9 A I can't say for certain. You'd 

10 have to measure it. But it probably looks 

11 like it might have the same or similar 

12 reflectivity as polished aluminum --

13 Q You believe that that --

14 A Not polished, but some kind of 

15 aluminum. I'm not sure if it's polished, but 

16 it could be oxidized aluminum. 

17 Q But in the expert report it speaks 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of a polished aluminum, not oxidized, 

polished 

A 

Q 

front of 

aluminum. 

Polished aluminum. 

You expect that -- that color 

you has the same reflectivity 

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a 

in 

as 

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1 polished aluminum? 

2 A I don't know. I'm not expert on 

3 that. 

4 MR. SPITZER: Same objection, Your 

5 Honor. This is outside the scope. It's --

6 it's materials that weren't in trial in the 

7 case in chief. This is pretty well beyond 

8 anything that we've talked about. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

10 MR. EMERSON: Just a moment, Your 

11 Honor. 

12 (Brief pause.) 

13 Q (By MR. EMERSON) Dr. Rasmussen, 

14 from the expert report do you remember what 

15 the theory was for the source of the formation 

16 of the frost? 

17 A 

18 Q 

19 right? 

20 A 

21 report. 

22 

I believe it was cold soaked fuel. 

Not radiation cooling. Is that 

That's what's hypothesized in the 

MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Finished cross? 

2 MR. EMERSON: Yes, Your Honor. 

3 I'd like to recall Dr. Perry to the stand. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, redirect on 

5 -- on the witness? 

6 MR. SPITZER: We do have a quick 

7 redirect, Your Honor, but this is -- there's 

8 no provision for calling another expert. We 

9 have a rebuttal case. We have the burden. 

10 Respondent doesn't. I mean we can keep going 

11 back and forth, but this is -- this is part of 

12 Administrator's basic right and calling 

13 another expert --

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's finish your 

15 if you have redirect, let's take it a step 

16 at a time. 

17 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

18 Honor. Just a second. 

19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 BY MR. SPITZER: 

21 Q Dr. Rasmussen, on 

22 cross-examination Respondent's counsel asked 

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1 you if you -- if -- if the aircraft -- the 

2 calculation prepared by Dr. Perry indicated 

3 that it was radiation frost or 

4 cold-soaked- fuel frost. Do you have a theory 

5 as to what the frost was caused by? 

6 A My analysis is that the region of 

7 the frost formation that I saw was not over 

8 the cold soaked fuel fuel area, so my 

9 opinion is that it was not --

10 MR. EMERSON: Objection. 

11 Foundation. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: I didn't 

14 hear the last word. 

15 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, this is 

16 

17 A -- not from the cold soaked fuel. 

18 MR. SPITZER: He's reviewed the 

19 testimony. he's reviewed the photographs. 

20 He's -- he's an aviation expert. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand, but 

22 it's beyond -- it's well beyond. 

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1 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, they 

2 asked if it was radiation frost or 

3 cold-soaked-fuel frost in cross. I'm allowed 

4 to explore that with this witness on my 

5 redirect. He opened the door for this. 

6 MR. EMERSON: No, I didn't. I 

7 asked what was in the report that he reviewed. 

8 He testified extensively about radiation 

9 cooling, which was interesting but not what 

10 was in the report. The theory in the report 

11 was cold soaked fuel that had caused that, and 

12 that answered that question. That was 

13 distinguishing but not opening the door to 

14 this area. Now he wants to talk about where 

15 the fuel was located on the wing. There's no 

16 foundation for that at all. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: If the foundation 

18 for the question is in the report, I'll allow 

19 it. If it's beyond the report, I'm going to 

20 sustain the objection. 

21 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, the 

22 foundation for the -- the foundation for the 

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1 formation of the frost does appear in the 

2 report, and I can elicit that from this 

3 witness on redirect. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's then 

5 let's lay a foundation for the question and 

6 ask the question. 

7 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, in 

10 reviewing the report of -- of Dr. Perry, did 

11 you come to any conclusions as to the 

12 mechanism for which frost is formed during the 

13 morning of the subject flight? 

14 MR. EMERSON: Same objection. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

16 MR. SPITZER: Your Honor, I'm 

17 asking him what he reviewed, so this is a --

18 I'm laying the foundation right here. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Objection's 

20 sustained. 

21 MR. SPITZER: The grounds are 

22 foundation still? 

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1 MR. EMERSON: And beyond the scope 

2 of the report. 

3 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, 

4 does this -- does this expert report of Dr. 

5 Perry have any indications as to the weather 

6 on the morning of the subject flight? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Does it have any other 

9 descriptions as to the general weather 

10 conditions in Salt Lake City on the morning of 

11 the subject flight? 

12 A Yes, it does. 

13 Q Limited to your reading of this 

14 expert report as it pertains to weather on the 

15 morning of the subject flight and general 

16 weather conditions on the morning of the 

17 subject flight, do you have a conclusion as to 

18 the formation mechanism for the frost on the 

19 subject aircraft wing on the morning of the 

20 subject flight? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q And what is that conclusion? 

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1 MR. EMERSON: Objection. His 

2 conclusions, again, are outside of the report. 

3 He can criticize calculations and the methods 

4 used by Dr. Perry, but now he's offering new 

5 testimony that's not found in that report. 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is redirect. 

7 I will sustain the objection. 

8 A Based on the 

9 MR. EMERSON: Sustained. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. 

11 THE WITNESS: Oh, sustained. 

12 Sorry. 

13 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, do 

14 you agree with the conclusion that Dr. Perry 

15 arrived at in his report concerning the 

16 formation of the frost on the aircraft wing? 

17 

18 answered. 

19 

20 A 

21 

22 you --

MR. EMERSON: Asked and 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 

Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry. Did 

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1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry what--

2 I've got two -- two questions at the same 

3 time. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Restate the 

5 question because the Court didn't hear the 

6 answer. 

7 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 Q (By MR. SPITZER) Dr. Rasmussen, do 

10 you agree with the conclusion drawn by Dr. 

11 Perry as to the mechanism for the formation of 

12 the frost on the subject aircraft wing on the 

13 morning of this subject flight? 

14 A No. 

15 MR. EMERSON: Asked and 

16 answered. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I still didn't 

18 -- Diane, what was the response? 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN REPORTER: No. 

20 THE WITNESS: I said no. 

21 Q (By MR. SPITZER) And why don't you 

22 agree with that? 

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1 A Because I feel that the mechanism 

2 was the radiation cooling on the wing. 

3 Q And what are you basing that on? 

4 A The weather conditions present and 

5 the fact that other exposed surfaces also had 

6 frost. So it's clearly the radiating cooling 

7 conditions and the humidity was high enough 

8 that it would have formed frost on the wing as 

9 well. 

10 MR. SPITZER: Thank you, Your 

11 Honor. No further questions. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any further need 

13 of this witness? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Depends on what 

15 happens next. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, do you have 

17 any further rebuttal? 

18 MR. SPITZER: There won't be any 

19 further rebuttal. The Administrator has no 

20 further rebuttal so I mean if --

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Dr. Rasmussen, you 

22 can step down, and I instruct that you're not 

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1 to discuss your testimony prior to the 

2 conclusion of the case. 

3 THE WITNESS: Should I leave this 

4 here? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, you can. 

6 Anything else, Counsel? 

7 MR. EMERSON: One moment, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 (Brief pause.) 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 

11 MR. EMERSON: SkyWest rests, Your 

12 Honor. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Counsel? 

14 MR. SPITZER: Nothing further from 

15 the Administrator. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm going to 

17 ask, gentlemen-- Mr. Spitzer, I'm going to 

18 leave a portion of this with you. Once, Mr. 

19 Spitzer, you get the transcript, would you 

20 talk to Mr. Emerson? You two work out a 

21 briefing schedule. I'm not going to give any 

22 schedule. I know both of you have other 

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1 trials, other things you need to deal with. 

2 One or both of you may be back in front of me 

3 depending upon what happens between now and 

4 the end of the month. So work out a briefing 

5 schedule that's convenient for the two of you. 

6 One of you prepare an order, send it to me and 

7 I'll sign it. 

8 If something comes up, talk 

9 between the two of you. If you can agree to 

10 slip the schedule, send me another order and 

11 I'll sign it. We don't have to go through--

12 this is the way I practiced law in Maryland 

13 for 20 years. If the two of you agree and 

14 want to slip it, we don't have a deadline, 

15 let's, you know just shoot me an order and 

16 I'll sign it. As I indicated before, in the 

17 absence of Mr. Leibowitz who has 30 years of 

18 experience, you're looking at my staff. I 

19 have no full-time staff. 

20 And just to reiterate-- I'm going 

21 to be saying this in a lot of other cases. 

22 Based on the unilateral dissemination of court 

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1 orders in cases that I have sealed, I can't 

2 guarantee the confidentiality of any 

3 information that's given to me. But that --

4 that's notice of it. 

5 So it's interesting that it 

6 stopped snowing at the conclusion of Dr. 

7 Rasmussen's testimony. I don't know whether 

8 we can draw any conclusions for that or not. 

9 So if there's nothing else, gentlemen, we'll 

10 go off record and thank you. 

11 (End of proceedings at 1:49 p.m.) 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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A -

able 638:14 

absence 671:17 

Absolutely 63 7: 14 

absorbed 642:21 

647:17 648:12 

650:22 651:17 

accept 63 5:2 

accepted 630:18 

account 651:13 

655:15 656:16 

accuracy 641 :7 

643:1 

accurate 632:2 

actively 629:14 

adding 659:11 

ADMINISTRAT ... 

623:8 

Administrative 

622:22 

Administrator 

634:16 669:19 

670:15 

Administrator's 

631:6 632:8,14,16 

662:12 

Affairs 623: 16 

affect 657:4 

afraid 653:22 

afternoon 626:10 

654:9,10 

Agency 624:5 

625:7,11 632:16 

632:17 633:8,9,11 

633:12 634:8,13 

agree647:18 

648:13 659:3 

667:14 668:10,22 

671:9,13 

ahead 634:14 646:3 

air 649:1,12,15,18 

654:22 

aircraft 628:14,16 

630:11 635:13 

636:22 637:22 

640:2 650:21 

651:2 653:1 663:1 

666:19 667:16 asking 665: 17 661 :7 663 :22,22 

668:12 associated 628:16 664:19 666:1 

aircraft's 637:20 assumed 652:20 black 645:9,9,12,14 

637:20 639:17 assumes655:16 645:15,19 646:5 

Airlines 622:5 assuming 648:22 646:10,17 647:6 

623:14,17 625:5 649:15 647:11,11648:7,8 

654:8 atmosphere 64 7:18 649:15,19 650:3 

airplanes 658:22 648:13,20 649:7 body 645:9,10,12 

allow 659:17 650:7,10,15 645:13 646:5,10 

664:18 atmospheric 646:16,17 647:11 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 673 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 674 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 675 

high 647:3 669:7 

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"''"'""' 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 676 

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681 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: SkyWest Airlines 

Before: DOT/FAA 

Date: 02-19-14 

Place: Salt Lake City, UT 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1313 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 10005·3701 www.nealrgross.com