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COMPARISON OF WHI TE HOU SE AND JUDICIAR Y 

COMMITTEE TRANSCR IPTS OF EIG HT RECORDED

PR ESIDEN TIAL CONV ERSATIONS

D O C U M E N T S __ __

JAN 21

T H E L - l - • « ' < V 

K A N S A S S T A T E U N lV c rtS IT Y

H E A R IN G S

BEF ORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

NIN ETY-T HIR D CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

PURSUANT TO

H. Res. 803

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AND DIRECTING THE COMMITTEE 

ON THE JUDICIARY TO INVESTIGATE WHETHER SUFFI CIE NT 

GROUNDS EX IST FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TO 

EXERCISE ITS CONSTITUTIONAL POWER TO IMPEACH 

RICHARD M. NIXON

PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OB' AMERICA

MAY-JUNE 1974

Serial No. 34

Printed for the use of the 

Committee on the Judiciary

COMPARISON OP WHI TE HO USE AND JUDICIAR Y 

COMMITTEE TRAN SCRIP TS OP EIGH T RECO RDED 

PR ES ID EN TIAL CONV ERSATIONS

H E A R IN G S

BEFORE TH E

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES

NIN ETY-T HIR D CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

PURSU ANT TO

H. Res. 803

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AND DIRECTING THE COMMITTEE 

ON THE JUDICIARY TO INVESTIGATE WHETHER SUFFICIE NT 

GROUNDS EX IST FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIV ES TO 

EXE RCISE ITS CONSTITUTIONAL POWER TO IMPEACH 

RICHARD M. NIXON

PRE SIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

MAY-JUNE 1974

Serial No. 34

Printed for th e use of the 

Committee on the Jud icia ry

36-316 O

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTO N : 1974

For sale by the Superintend ent of Documents, U.S. Gov ernm ent Pri nti ng Office 

Washington, D .C. 20402 - Price $1.10
COM MIT TE E ON TH E JU DIC IA RY

PET E R W . RO DINO , J r., N ew J er se y, Ch airm an

HA RO LD D. DO NO HU E, M as sa ch us et ts

JA CK BR OO KS , Tex as

RO BE RT W. KAST EN M EI ER , W isc on sin 

DON ED WAR DS , Cal ifor ni a 

W IL LI AM L. HU NG AT E, M iss ou ri 

JO HN C ON YE RS, J r., M ich iga n 

JO SH UA E IL BERG , Pen ns yl va ni a 

JE ROM E R. W AL DI E, Cal ifor ni a 

WAL TE R FL OW ER S, Al ab am a 

JA MES R. MANN, So ut h Car ol in a 

PA UL S. SA RB AN ES , M ar yl an d 

JO HN F. SE IB ERLIN G, Ohio 

GE OR GE E. DA NI EL SO N, Cal ifor ni a 

RO BE RT F . DR IN AN , M as sa ch us et ts 

CH ARL ES B. RA NG EL , New Y ork 

BA RB AR A JO RD AN , Tex as 

RAY TH OR NT ON , A rk an sa s 

ELIZ A BETH H OL TZMA N, New York 

WA YN E OW EN S, U ta h 

ED WA RD ME ZV INSK Y, Io wa

ED WA RD HU TC HI NS ON , Mi chiga n 

RO BE RT MC CLORY, Illin oi s 

HE NR Y P. SM IT H III, New Y ork 

CH AR LE S W. SANDMAN, J r., N ew Je rs ey 

TOM RA ILSB AC K, Il lin oi s 

CH AR LE S E. WIG GI NS , Cal ifor ni a 

DA VID W. DE NNIS , In dia na 

HA MILTO N FIS H , J r., N ew York 

W ILEY MAYNE , Io wa 

LA WRE NC E J. HOGAN , M arylan d 

M. CA LD WEL L BU TL ER , Virgi nia 

W IL LI AM S. CO HE N, Maine 

TRE NT LO TT , Missis sip pi 

HA RO LD V. FR OEHLI CH , Wisc on sin 

CARLOS J. MO ORHE AD , Cal ifor ni a 

JO SE PH J. MAR AZ ITI, New Je rs ey 

DELB ER T L. LA TTA, Ohio

J oh n Doar, Sp ec ial Co un sel

Alb er t E. J en ner , J r. , Sp ec ial Co un sel to the M in or ity

J ose ph A. Woods, Jr. , Sen io r Assoc ia te S pe ci al Co un sel

Rich ard Cate s, Se ni or A ssoc ia te S pe ci al C ou nsel

Bernard W. Nus sb au m, Se ni or A ss oc ia te S pe ci al Co unsel

Robert D. Sack, Se ni or A ssoc ia te S pe cial Co un sel

Robe rt A. Shel to n, Assoc ia te Sp ec ial Co un sel

Sam ue l Garr ison III, D ep uty M in or ity Co un sel

F red H. Alt sh u ler, Co uns el

T ho ma s Bel l, Couns el

W. P aul B is h o p, Co unsel

Robe rt L . Brown, Couns el

Mic ha el M. Conway, Co uns el

Rufu s Cor mi er, Sp ec ial A ss is ta nt

E. Lee Dal e, Couns el

J oh n B. Davidso n, Co uns el

E van A. D av is, Co uns el

Con st an ti ne J. Gek as, Co un sel

Rich ar d H . Gil l, Co uns el

Daomar H am ilto n, Co unsel

David H anes , Sp ec ial A ss is ta nt

J oh n E. Ken na ha n, Co unsel

T erry R. Kir kpa tr ic k, Co unsel

J oh n R. L abovitz, Co unsel

Law rence Luc ch ino, Co un sel

R. L. Sm it h McKe it h en , Co un sel

Alan M arer, Co un sel

Robe rt P . Mu rph y, Co uns el

J am es B. F. Olip h a n t, Couns el

Richa rd H . P or ter, Co unsel

George Rayborn, Co un sel

J am es Reu m, Co unsel

H illa ry D. Rod ha m, Co uns el

Steph en A. Sharp , Co un sel

J ared S ta mel l, Co unsel

Roscoe B. Starek III, Co uns el

Gary W. Sut to n, Co un sel

E dward S. Szu kel ew ic z, Co uns el

T heo dor e R. Tet zl aff , Co uns el

Robert J. T rainor, Co un sel

J. Ste ph en Walk er , Co unsel

Ben A. Wallis , Jr. , Co un sel

Willia m Weld, Co unsel

William A. Wh it e, Co unsel

(ID
TABLE OF CONTENTS

Page

Fore w or d_______________________________________________________________________ v

September 15, 1972_______________________________________________________________ 1

Feb rua ry 28, 1973________________________________________________________________ 7

March 13, 1973___________________________________________________________________ 11

March 21, 1973, a.m ______________________________________________________________ 17

March 21, 1973, p.m ______________________________________________________________ 31

March 22, 1973__________________________________________________________________ 39

April 16, 1973, a.m _______________________________________________________________ 51

April 16, 1973, p.m_______________________________________________________________ 55

(in )

FOREWORD

B y H on . P ete r W. R od ino, J r., C h a ir m a n, Com mit te e on t ii e J ud iciary

On July 9,1974, the Committee on the Judiciary released a volume entitled 

“Transcripts of Ei ght Recorded Presidential Conversations.” The conversations 

among President Nixon, John Dean and others took place on September 15, 

1972; February 28, 1973; March 13,1973; March 21,1973 (two conversations); 

March 22, 1973 and April 16, 1973 (two conversations).

Transcripts of seven of these eight conversations (all except the conversation on the afternoon of April 16, 1973) were initially delivered by President 

Nixon to the Special Prosecutor between Jan uary 1 and 9, 1974, and to the 

Committee between March 8 and 15, 1974. White House transcripts of these 

eight conversations appeared in a publication entitled “Submission of Recorded 

Presidential Conversations” delivered to the Committee and released by President Nixon to the public on April 30,1974.

The seven W hite House transcripts received by the Special Prosecutor in 

January 1974 and by the Committee in March 1974 are nearly the same (except 

for minor differences, deletion of expletives, and the differences footnoted in 

this document in the September 15, 1972 conversation) as the published 

White House edited transcripts.

This document contains comparisons between certain passages in the tran scripts of the eight conversations delivered by the President to the Committee 

and released to the public in April and the same passages as transcribed by the 

Committee’s Inquiry staff. It does not reflect all differences between the two sets 

of transcripts. It does not draw any conclusions as to the reasons for, or the 

significance of, the differences. It has been prepared solely as an aid to the 

Committee in its deliberations. Each of the passages compared in this volume 

should be read in the context of the entire conversation from which it is taken.

Page citations are to the volume entitled, “Transcripts of E igh t Recorded 

Presidential Conversations” published by the Committee, and to the blue volume 

released by the White House entitled, “Submission of Recorded Presidential 

Conversations, April 30,1974.”

(V)

Conversation in the Oval Office

Among the Preside nt, H. R. Haldeman, and John Dean

SEPTEMBER 15, 1 9 7 2 , FROM 5 :2 4 TO 6 :17 P.M .

SEPTE MB ER 15, 1972

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 2

President. Well, you had quite 

a day today, didn’t you ? You 

got, uh, Watergate, uh, on the way, 

huh ?

Dean. Quite a three months.

WHI TE HOU SE TRAN SCRIP T, p. 55

P [• • . .] You had quite 

a day today didn’t you. You 

got Watergate on the way 

didn’t you ?

D We tried.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, pp. 9-10 WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSCRIPT, pp. 64-65

President. They’re all in it 

together.

Dean. That’s right.

President. They should just, uh, 

just behave and, and, recognize 

this, this is, again, this is war.

We’re getting a few shots and it’ll 

be over. And, we’ll give them a few 

shots. It’ll be over. Don’t 

worry. [Unintelligible] I 

wouldn’t want to be on the other 

side right now. Would you ? I 

wouldn’t want to be in Edward 

Bennett Williams’, Williams’ 

position afte r this election.

Dean. No. No.

President. None of these bastards— 

Dean. He, uh. he’s done some rather un ­

ethical things that have come to light 

already, which in—again, Richey has 

brought to our attention.

President. Yeah.

Dean. He went down—

Haldeman. Keep a log on all that. 

Dean. Oh, we are, on these. Yeah. 

President. Yeah.

Haldeman. Because afterwards that

is a guy,

President. We’re going afte r him.

P We are all in it 

together.

This is a war.

We take a few shots and it will 

be over. We will give them a few 

shots and it will be over. Don’t 

worry. I

wouldn't want to be on the other 

side right now. Would you ?

[P I wouldn’t want to be in Edward 

Bennett Williams’ position after this 

election.] 1

[D No.]

[He has done some rather unethical things tha t have come about 

already and Ritchie has

brought them to our attention.]

[H Keep a log on them]

[because afterwards tha t 

is a guy]

1

 The bracke ted material does no t appear in the v olum e of W hite 

Hous e edited tran sc ript s, “ Submission of Recorded Pr es iden tia l 

Conversation, April 30, 1974." It is in the White Hou se tr an ­

scrip t which was given to the Special Pr osecutor in Ja nu ar y 1974 

and the Judiciary Com mittee in Ma rch 1974.
4 SEPTEMBER 15, 1972

Haldeman. that is a g uy we’ve got 

to ruin.

Dean. He h ad, he h ad an ex pa rte — 

P resident. You wa nt to remember, 

too, he’s an a tto rney f or th e 

Washin gto n Post.

Dean. I ’m well aware o f that. 

P resident. I t hi nk we are going 

to fix the son-of-a-bitch. Believe 

me. We are going to. W e’ve got 

to, because lie’s a bad man.

Dean. Abs olutely.

P resident. He m isbehaved very bad ly 

in the H offa m atter. O ur—some 

pr et ty b ad c onduct, th ere , too, bu t 

go ahead.

Dean. Well, th at’s uh, alo ng t hat 

line, u h, one o f the th ing s I ’ve trie d 

to do, is j us t keep notes on a l ot of 

people who are em erg ing as,

P resident. Tha t’s righ t.

Dean, as less th an ou r frie nds. 

President. Great.

[we have 

to r uin .] 1

[P You wa nt to remember 

he is also the la wyer for the 

Wash ing ton Post.]

[We are going

to fix (ex pletive deleted) believe

me. We ’ve g ot

to. He is a bad man .]

| He misb ehaved very bad ly 

in the (in au dible).]

I) Along t hat line, one of the 

thing s I ’ve tried to do, I 

have begun to keep notes on a lo t of 

people who are em erg ing as 

less th an our friends [ . . . . ]

1

 The bracketed mate rial does not appear in the volume of 

White House edited tran scri pts, “Submission of Recorded Presidential Conversations, April 30, 1974.” It is in the White House 

transc rip t which was given to the Special Prosecuto r in Janu ­

ary 1974 and the Judiciary Committee in March 1974.
SE PT EM BER 15, 1972 5

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 15

Haldeman. The Post is—

President. ' The Post has asked— 

it’s going to have its problems.

Haldemax. [Unintelligible]

Dean. The networks, the networks 

are good with Maury coming back three 

days in a row and—

President. That’s right. Right.

The main thing is the Post is going 

to have damnable, damnable problems 

out of this one. They have a 

television station

Dean. That’s right, they do.

President, and they’re going to 

have to get it renewed.

Haldeman. They’ve got a radio 

station, too.

President. Does that come up too ?

The point is, when does it come up?

Dean. I don’t know. But the 

practice of non-licensees filing on top 

of licensees has certainly gotten more, 

President. That’s right.

Dean, more active in the, in the 

area.

President. And it’s going to be 

God damn active here.

Dean. [Laughs]

President. Well, the game has to be 

played awfully rough. I don’t know— 

Now, you, you’ll follow through with— 

who will over there? Who—Timmons, 

or with Ford, or—How’s it going to 

operate?

Haldeman. I ’ll talk to Bill. I 

think—Yeah.

WHITE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 71

[P Sure. This is alright.

The main thing is the Post is going 

to have damnable time— 

they have a

television station] 1

[and they are going to 

have it renewed.]

[H They have a radio

station, too.]

[P Does tha t come under too?]

[D Non-licencee9 file

on top of licencees.]

[P It is going to be 

(expletive deleted) active here.]

[P The game has to be 

played awfully rough. I don’t know 

who now, but you will talk 

to Bill. I don’t know

which one.]

H Yes, I will talk to Bill.

1

 The bra cke ted material does n ot ap pear in t he volume of Wh ite 

Hous e edited tran sc ript s, “Submission of Recorded Pr es iden tia l 

Conve rsation s, Apr il 30, 1974.” It is in the Wh ite Hou se tr an ­

scrip t which was given to the Special Prosecutor in Ja nu ar y 1974 

and the Judiciary Com mittee in Ma rch 1974.

Conversation in the Oval Office

Between the Pre sident and John Dean

FEBRUARY 28, 1 7 9 3 , FROM 9 :1 2 TO 1 0 :2 3 A.M .

FE BRUARY 28, 1973

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE

TRANSCR IPT, p. 40 WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 102

President. [ . . . . ] I feel for those P [• . • .] I feel for those

poor guys in jail, I mean, I don’t poor guys in jail,

know—particularly for Hunt. particularly for Hun t

Hun t with his wife, uh dead. with his wife dead.

It’s a tough thing.

Dean. Well, I) Well there is

President. We have to do

[unintelligible]

Dean, every indication every indication

President. You’ll have to do—

Dean, tha t they’re they’re hanging they are hanging

in tough righ t now. in tough right now.

President. What the hell do they P What the hell do they

expect, though? Do they expect th at expect though? Do they expect

they will get clemency within a clemency in a

reasonable time? reasonable time ?

Dean. I think they do. [Unintelligible] going to do.

President. What would you say? What P What

would you advise on that ? would you advise on that ?

Dean. Uh, I think it’s one D I think it is one

of those things we’ll have to of those things we will have to

watch very closely. For example— watch very closely. F or example—

President. You couldn’t do it, you P You couldn’t do it,

couldn’t do it, say, in six months? say, in six months.

Dean. No. D No, you couldn’t. [ . . . . ]

President. No.

Dean. No, you couldn’t. [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITTEE

TRANSCR IPT, pp. 40-41 WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 103

President. [ . . . . ] “I will not P [ . . . . ] I will not

comment on the hearings while they comment on the hearings while they

are in process.” [Unintelligible.] are in process.

And then I, of course if they Of course if they

break through —if they get break through—if they get

a lot luckier—But you see, muckraking—

it’s best not to elevate It is best not to cultivate

—and I get Ziegler to do

the same—it’s best not to

9
10 FEBRUARY 28, 1973

elev ate t hat th in g here 

to the Wh ite House. ‘Cause I 

do n’t want th e W hit e H ouse 

gabbing a rou nd ab out the 

God dam ned thi ng . Now there , 

of course, yo u’d say, “B ut 

you leave it all to them. ”

[H ig h freque ncy tone f or fou r 

seconds.]

P resident, our policy. Bu t t he 

Pr es id en t sh ould not become 

[unin telligible ] on this case.

Do you agree to th at ?

th at th in g here

at the White House. If

it is done at the Whit e House

again they are goin g to d rop th e

(ad jec tive deleted ) thing. Now there,

of course, you say bu t

you leave it all to them.

We’ll see as time goes on.

Maybe we will have to cha nge 

ou r policy. But the 

Pr esiden t shou ld no t become 

involve d in any p ar t of this case.

Do you agree with th at ?

HO USE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TE E 

TRANSCRIP T, p. 43

Dean.............. So I ’m no t wo rried

P resident. Yeah.

Dean, abo ut H erb at all.

P resident. Oh, well, it, i t’ll be 

ha rd fo r him , he—

’cause it ’ll, it ’ll get out 

about abo ut H un t. It , it—

I suppose the big thing is the 

financin g tra nsactio n th ey ’ll 

go a fte r. How di d the money 

ge t to th e B ank of Mexico, 

an d so for th and so on.

W H IT E HOUSE TR A N SCRIP T p. 106

D [. . .] so I am not worrie d

about He rb at all.

P Oh well, it w ill be 

ha rd for him.

I suppose the big thing is the 

financ ing tran saction th at they will 

go after him for. H ow does the monev 

get to the B ank of Mexico, 

etc.
Conversation in the Oval Office

Among the President, John Dean, and H. R. Haldeman

MARCH 13, 1 9 7 3 , FROM 1 2 :4 2 TO 2 P.M.

MA RCH 13, 1973

HOUSE JUD ICIARY COMMITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p.71

President. Did Strachan?

Dean. Yes.

President. He knew ?

Dean. Yes.

President. About the Watergate?

Dean. Yes.

President. Well then, Bob knew.

He probably told Bob, then.

He may not have. He may not have.

Dean. He was, he was judicious in 

what he, in what he relayed, and, uh, 

but Strachan is as tough 

as nails. I-----

President. What’ll he say ? Ju st go 

in and say he didn’t know ?

Dean. He’ll go in and stonewall it 

and say, “I don’t know anything 

about what you are talking about.”

He has already done it twice, 

as you know, in interviews.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 14b

p Strachan ?

D Yes.

P He knew ?

D Yes.

P About the Watergate?

D Yes.

P Well, then,

he probably told Bob.

He may not have.

D He was judicious in 

what he relayed, 

but Strachan is as tough 

as nails.

He can go in and stonewall, 

and say, “I don’t know anything 

about what you are talking about.” 

He has already done it twice 

you know, in interviews.

HOUSE JUD ICIARY CO MMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p.72

Dean. That’s right. And I said,

“Chuck, people have said that

you were involved in this,

involved in that, involved in this.”

And he said, “I—that’s not 

true,” and so on and so forth.

Uh, I don’t, I think that Chuck had 

knowledge that something 

was going on over there.

A lot of people around here 

had knowledge th at something 

was going on over there.

They didn’t have any knowledge 

of the details of the specifics 

of, of the whole thing.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y CO MMITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 72

President. It was a dry hole, huh ?

Dean. That’s right.

President. Jesus Christ.

WHITE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, pp. 147-48

I) Th at’s right. I said,

“Chuck, people have said that

you were involved in this,

involved in that, involved in all of this.

He said, “that is not 

true, etc.”

I think th at Chuck had

knowledge that something

was going on over there,

but he didn’t have any knowledge 

of the details of the specifics 

of the whole thing.

WHI TE HOUSE T RANSC RIPT, p. 148

P A dry hole ?

I) That’s right.

P (Expletive deleted)

13
14 MARCH 13, 1973

Dean. Well, th ey were ju st rea lly 

ge tti ng sta rte d.

P resident. Yeah. Yeah . Bu t, u h,

Bob one tim e sa id some thin g 

about the fac t

we got some in form ati on abo ut 

this o r tha t or the o ther, 

but, T, I t hi nk it was abou t 

the Conv ention, what

the y were pla nning ,

I said [unin telligible ].

So I assume t hat must have been 

MacGr ego r, I mean not M acG rego r, 

but Se grett i.

Dean. No.

President. Bob must have known 

about Se grett i.

Dean. Well. I —Segretti rea lly wasn’t 

invo lved in the intelligence 

ga thering to speak of at all.

I) We ll, th ey were just rea lly

ge tti ng start ed.

P Yeah .

Bob one time said something to me 

abou t something.

this or t hat or something, 

but I think it was somethin g ab out 

the Conventio n, I th ink it was 

abo ut the convention problems 

the y w ere p lan ning something.

I assume tha t must ha ve been 

AI acG regor—not MacG regor, 

but S egret ti.

I) No,

Se grett i wasn’t 

involve d in the intelligence 

ga th er in g piece of it a t all.

HO USE JU D IC IA R Y CO M M IT TE E 

TRAN SCRIP T, p. 73

P resident [U ninte lligib le] to think 

that M itchell and Bob wo uld allow , 

would have allowed this kin d of 

opera tion to be in th e Co mmittee.

Dean . I do n’t think he knew 

it was there.

P resident. You kid din g?

Dean. I don’t—

P resident. You don ’t th ink 

Mitc hell knew abo ut 

this thing?

Dean. Oh, no, no, no.

Don’t mis—

I don’t thi nk he 

knew th at peop le—

I th in k he knew th at Lidd y 

was out int ell ige nce-g ath ering.

P resident. We ll ?

Dean. I don’t think he knew 

th at Lid dy would use a fellow 

like M cCord, for G od’s sake, 

who worked for the Com mittee.

I can’t believe th at. [ . . . . ]

W H IT E H OUSE TR AN SC RIP T, p. 149

P To think

of Mitchell and Bob would have allowed— 

would have a llowed—t his kind of 

opera tion to be in the ca mp aig n c om mittee!

I) I don’t th ink he knew 

it was the re.

P I don’t th ink tha t 

Mitchell knew a bout 

this sort of thing .

D Oh, no, n o !

Don ’t mi sunders tan d me.

1 don’t th in k th at he 

knew the people.

I t hink he knew t hat Lid dy 

was out inte lligence g ath eri ng .

I d on ’t think he knew th at 

Lidd y would use a fellow 

like M cCord, (exple tive rem oved), 

who worked for the Com mittee.

I c an’t believe tha t.
MARC H 13, 1973 15

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 74

President. Well, what about 

the hang-out thing ?

[Unknown person enters, receives 

instruction from the President to 

take something to Haldeman, and 

leaves the room.]

President. Uh, is it too late to, 

to, frankly, go the hang-out road ?

Yes, it is.

Dean. I think it is. I th ink—

Here’s the—The hang-out road—

President. The hang-out road's 

going to have to be rejected.

I, some, I understand it 

was rejected.

Dean. It was kicked around.

Bob and I and, and, and—

President. I know Ehrlichman always 

felt that it should be hang-out. 

[Unintelligible]

Dean. Well, I think I convinced him 

why that he wouldn’t want to 

hang-out either. There is a 

certain domino situation here.

[ - . . . ]

WHITE HO USE TRA NSCRIPT, p. 150

P Is it too late to 

go the hang-out road?

D Yes, I think it is.

The hang-out road—

P The hang-out road 

(inaudible).

D It was kicked around 

Bob and I and—

P Ehrlichman always felt 

it should be hang-out.

D Well, I think I convinced him 

why he would not want to 

hang-out either. There is a 

certain domino situation here. 

[ . . . . ]

Conversation in the Oval Office

Among the Pesiden t, John Dean, and H. R. Haldeman

MARCH 21, 1 9 7 3 , FROM 10 :12 TO 11 155 A.M .

MARCH 21, 1973 A.M.

HOUSE J UD ICIARY COMMITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 84

Dean. I will go back over that,

and tell

President. Was tha t Colson?

Dean, you w’here I think the,

the soft spots are.

President. Colson—that, that, that 

Colson, uh, you think was the, uh, 

was the person who

Dean. I think he,

President, pushed ?

WHI TE HOUSE TRAN SCRIP T, p. 178

D I will go back over that,

and take out any of

the soft spots.

P Colson,

you think

was the person who

pushed ?

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COM MITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 90

President. [Unintelligible]. Maybe—

Well, whether it’s maybe too 

late to do anything about it, 

but I would certainly keep 

that, [laughs] tha t cover for 

whatever it’s worth.

Dean. I ’ll—

President. Keep the Committee.

Dean. Af—, after, well, that, that, th at’s 

President. [Unintelligible]

WHITE HOU SE TRANSC RIPT, p. 187 

P [unintelligible]

but I would certainly keep

tha t cover for

whatever it is worth.

HOUSE JU DI CIAR Y COM MITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 94

President. Let me say, there

shouldn’t be a lot of people

running around getting money.

We should set up a little—

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSCRIPT , p. 194

P Let me say there

shouldn't be a lot of people

running around gettin g money—

HOU SE JU DI CIAR Y COM MITTEE 

TRAN SCRIP T, p. 96

President. Well, your, your major, 

your major guy to keep

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 196

P Your major

guy to keep

19
20 MARC H 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A .M .

under control is Hunt.

Dean. That's right.

President. I think. Because 

he knows

Dean. He knows so much. 

President, about a lot of 

other things.

Dean. He knows so much. Right. 

Uh, he could sink Chuck Colson. 

[ . . . . ]

under control is Hunt? 

I) That is right.

P 1 think. Does

ho know a lot?

D He knows so much.

He could sink Chuck Colson. 

[ - . . . ]

HOUSE JU DICIA RY COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 96

Dean. Now we’ve got 

Kalmbach. [Coughs]

President. Yeah, that’s a tough one.

WHITE HOU SE TRAN SCR IPT, p. 197

D Now we’ve got 

Kalmbach. [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMM ITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 97

Dean. [ . . . . ] Uh, I don’t 

know of anything that Herb 

has done that is illegal, 

other than the fact that he 

doesn’t want to blow the 

whistle on a lot of people, 

and may find himself in a 

perjury situation.

President. Well, if he, uh, he 

could—because he will be asked about 

that money ?

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 198

D [ . . . . ] I don’t 

know of anything that Herb 

has done that is illegal, 

other than the fact tha t he 

doesn’t want to blow’ the 

w histle on a lot of people, 

and may find himself in a 

perjury situation. [ . . . . ]

HO USE JU DICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 97-98

President. How would you 

handle him, then, John.

For example, would you 

just have him put the 

whole thing out?

Dean. [Draws breath]

President. I don’t think so.

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 198

P How would you 

handle him, John, 

for example ? Would you 

j list have him put the 

whole thing out?
MARCH 2 1 , 1 0 7 3 A.M . 21

I mean I don’t mind the I don’t mind the

five hundred thousand dollars $500,000

and I don’t mind the • and the

four hundred thousand dollars $400,000.

Dean. No, that,

President, for activities

D No—that

[unintelligible]

Dean, that, that, uh, that 

doesn’t bother me either. doesn’t bother me either.

There’s—as I say, Herb’s As I say, Herb’s

problems are

P resident. There’s a surplus—

problems are

Dean, politically embarrassing, politically embarrassing,

but not as—not criminal. but not criminal.

President. Well, they’re embarrassing, P Well

sure—he, he just handled matters he just handled matters

tha t were between the campaigns, 

before anything was done. [ . . . . ]

between campaigns. [. . . .]

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITT EE

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 98 WHITE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 199

President. All right. How do P How about

your other vulnerabilities go 

together?

the other probabilities?

Dean. The other vulnerabilities:

We’ve got a, uh, runaway I) We have a runaway

Grand Jury up in the Southern Grand Ju ry up in the Southern

District.

President. Yeah, I heard.

District.

Dean. They’re after Mitchell and They are a fter Mitchell and

Stans on some sort of bribe Stans on some sort of bribe

or influence peddling or influence peddling

President. On Vesco.

Dean, with Vesco.

President. Yeah.

with Vesco. [ . . . . ]

Dean. Uh, they’re also going to try to drag D They are also going to try to drag

Ehrlichman into that. Apparently, Ehrlichman into that. Apparently

Ehrlichman had some meetings Ehrlichman had some meetings

with Vesco, also. with Vesco, also.

Uh, Don Nixon, Jr., came in to Don Nixon, Jr. came into

see John a couple of see John a couple of

times, uh, about the problem. times about the problem.

President. Not about the complaint. P Not about Vesco, but about

Don, Jr.?

Dean. That, there’s uh— 

the fact of the matter is—

President. [Unintelligibe] about 

a job.
22 MARCH 21, 1973 A.M.

Dean. That’s right. And, and, 

and, uh, I—

President. We’re, is it— 

Ehrlichman’s totally to blame 

on that.

Dean. Yeah, well, I think the 

White House—

President. [Unintelligible]

Dean. No one has done anything 

for—

President. —Vesco. Matter of— 

not for the prosecutor.

Erlichman never did anything 

for Vesco?

I) No one at the 

White House

has done anything

for

Vesco.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSCRIPT , p. 100

Dean. That’s what really troubles 

me. For example, what happens 

if it starts breaking, and they do 

find a criminal case against a 

Haldeman, a Dean, a Mitchell, an 

Ehrlichman? Uh, tha t is—

President. Well if it really 

comes down to that, we cannot, 

maybe—We’d have to 

shed it in order to contain it again.

W HI TE HOUSE TRA NSCRIPT, p. 201

D That is what really troubles 

me. For example, what happens 

if it starts breaking, and they do 

find a criminal case against a 

Haldeman, a Dean, a Mitchell, an 

Ehrlichman? That is—

P If it really

comes down to that,

we would have to

(unintelligible) some of the men.

HOUSE JUD ICIARY COMM ITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 100

Dean. I know, sir, it is. Well

I can just tell from our

conversations that, you know,

these are things th at you

have no knowledge of.

President. The absurdity of

the whole damned thing.

Dean. But it—

President, bugging and so on.

[ . . . . ]

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 202

D I know, sir.

I can just tell from our

conversation th at

these are things tha t you

have no knowledge of.

P You certainly ca n!

Buggings, etc! [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JUD ICIARY COMM ITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 100-01

President. Called [unintelligible] 

and said, “We’ve got a , we’ve got a 

good plan.” I don’t know what the

W HI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 202
MARC H 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A .M . 23

Christ he would be doing. Oh, I’ll 

bet you. I know why.

Tha t was at the time of ITT.

He was trying to get something 

going there because ITT, 

they were bugging us. I mean 

they w’ere 

Dean. Right.

P resident, giving us hell.

Dean. Well, I know, I know he used, 

uh,

P resident. Hunt to go out there ? 

Dean. Hunt.

President. I know about it.

Dean. Yeah.

President. I did know about it.

Uh, I knew that there was, there was 

something going on there,

Dean. Right.

President, but I didn’t know 

it was Hunt.

P All I know about 

is the time of ITT, 

he was trying to get something 

going there because ITT 

was

giving us a bad time. 

D I know he used

Hunt.

P I knew about that.

I didn’t know about it, 

but I knew there was 

something going on.

But I didn’t know 

it was a Hunt.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRANSC RIPT, p. 104

Dean. —to me there was

no way

President. Yeah.

Dean, that, uh—

President. Yeah.

Dean. But to burden this second 

Administration

President. We’re all in on it.

Dean, was something tha t—

It’s something tha t is

not going to go away.

WHI TE HOU SE T RANSC RIPT, p. 207

D [.. .. ] You know, with me there was 

no way,

but the burden of this second 

Administration

is something that is

not going to go away.

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMM ITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 104

Dean. And it seems to me the only 

way tha t—

President. Who else, though ? L et’s, 

let’s leave you and—

I don’t I don’t,

I don’t think on the, on, 

uh, on the obstruction 

of justice thing—

President. I know about it.

1) And it seems to me the only 

way—

P Well, also so let’s

leave you out of it.

I don’t think on

the obstruction

of justice thing—
24 MARC H 2 1 , 197 3 A .M .

I think that one we can handle.

I, I don’t know why I 

feel that way, but I—

Dean. Well, it is possible 

tha t I

President. I, I th ink you may be 

overplaying [ . . . . ]

I take tha t out.

I don’t know why, I

think you may be over that cliff. 

I) Well, it is possible.

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 105

Dean. I thin k we’ve got to

look—

President. But at the moment, don’t 

you agree that you'd better 

get the Hunt thing? I mean, 

tha t’s worth it,

at the moment.

Dean. That, that’s worth buying

time on, right.

President. And th at’s buying time 

on, I agree.

WHITE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 209

D [. . . .] I think we’ve got to

look—

P But at the moment, don’t

you agree it is better

to get the Hun t thing

tha t’s where that—

I) That is worth buying

time on

P That is buying time,

I agree.

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 108

President. Let me say, though tha t

Hunt [unintelligible] hard

line, and that a convicted

felon is going to go out

and squeal [unintelligible]

as we about this

| unintelligible] decision

[unintelligible]

turns on that.

WHITE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 213

I) [• • • .]Let me say

(unintelligible) How

do we handle all

(unintelligible)

who knew all about this

in advance.

Let me have some of

your thoughts on that.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 109

President. [ . . . . ] Whether the line

is one of. uh, continuing to.

uh. run a, try to run

a total stone wall,

and take the heat from that,

uh, having in mind

the fact that. uh. there are

vulnerable points there;

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 215

P [ . . . . ] Whether the line

is one of continuing to

run

a kind of stone wall,

and take the heat from that,

having in mind

the fact th at there are

vulnerable points there:—
MARC H 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A .M . 25

the vulnerable points being, that, well, 

the first vulnerable points would 

be obvious. In other words, 

it would be if, uh, uh, one of the, 

uh, defendants, particularly Hunt, 

of course, who is the most 

vulnerable in my opinion, 

might, uh, blow the whistle, 

and he, he—and his price is 

pretty high, but at least, uh, 

we should, we should

buy the time on that, uh,

as I, as I pointed out to John.

[. • • •]

the vulnerable points being, 

the first vulnerable points would 

be obvious.

That would be one of the 

defendents, either H unt, 

because he is most 

vulnerable in my opinion, 

might blow the whistle 

and his price is 

pretty high, but at least 

we can

buy the time on that

as I pointed out to John.

[ . . . . ]

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 110

President. Fortunately, fortunately, 

with Chuck it is very—

I, I talk to him about 

many, many political things, 

but I never talk 

about this sort of thing 

’cause lie’s, uh, he’s very harmful,

I mean I don't think— 

he must be damn sure 

I don’t know anything.

And I don’t. In fact,

I ’m rather surprised 

at what you told me today.

From what you said, I 

gathered the impression, 

and of course your, your, your 

analysis does not for sure, 

uh, indicate th at Chuck knew 

tha t it was a bugging operation 

for certain.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 218

P Ok. Fortunately,

with Chuck it is very—

I talk to him about

many, many political things,

but I have never talked with him

about this sort of thing.

Very probably,

I think

he must be damn sure

that I didn’t know anything.

And I don’t. In fact,

I am surprised

by what you told me today.

From what you said, I

gathered the impression,

and of course your

analysis does not for sure

indicate that Chuck knew

tha t it was a bugging operation.

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 112

President. That’s right, but not— 

all right. The point is, the point is 

this, that, uh, it’s

now time, though, to, uh,

that Mitchell has got to sit

down, and know where the

hell all this thing stands, too.

W HI TE HOU SE TRANSC RIPT, p. 220

P The point is

this, th at it is

now time, though,

that Mitchell has got to sit

down, and know where the

hell all this thing stands, too.
26 MARCH

You see, Jo hn is concerned,

as you know, Bob,

about, u b, Eh rli ch man , which , uh,

worries me a g reat deal

because it ’s a, uh, it—

and it, an d thi s is wh y the

Hun t problem is so serious,

uh, because, uh, it had

no thi ng to do w ith the

cam paign.

HO USE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TE E 

TRA N SCRIP T, pp. 114-15

P resident. An d t ha t means, we got to,

we’ve got to keep it off

of you, uh, which I ,

which I [un int ell igi ble ]

obs truction of justice

thing. W e’ve got to keep it

off Ehrlichma n.

We’ve got to keep it , natur ally, 

off of Bob, off Ch ap in, if 

possible, an d S tra ch an .

Right?

Dean. Uh hu h.

P resident. An d Mitchell. Right?

Dean. Uh huh .

President. Now.

H aldeman. An d Magrud er, if you can.

Bu t th at’s the one you prett y 

much have to give up.

H O U SE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TE E 

TR A N SCRIP T, p. 116

P resident. The only thing you

could do w ith him

would be to pa role him

fo r a p eriod of tim e

because of his fa mi ly

situatio n. Bu t you could n’t

provide clemency.

H O U SE J U D IC IA R Y C OM M IT TEE 

TR A N SCRIP T, p.11 8

H aldeman. An d the n t hey n ever

replen ished it, so we jus t gave

21, 1973 A.M .

You see, J oh n is concerned, 

as you know,

about th e Eh rli ch man s ituation. 

It w orries him a gre at deal 

because,

and this is wh y the 

H un t problem is so serious, 

because it had

no thing to do with the 

cam pai gn. [ . . . . ]

W H IT E HOUSE TRA N SCRIP T, p. 225

P An d that mean s

keeping it off

you.

He rb ha s s tarte d

this Justi ce

thing . W e’ve got to keep i t

off Herb.

You h ave to keep it, na turally ,

off of Bob, off Chapin, if

possible, Strach an ,

righ t ?

D Uh , huh.

P An d Mitchell. Ri gh t?

D Uh , h uh.

H An d Magrud er, if you can,

W H IT E HO USE TR A N SCRIP T, p. 227

P The only thi ng we

could do with him

would be to parole him

like the

(unin tel lig ible)

situatio n. But you co uld n't

buy clem ency.

W H IT E HO USE TRA N SCRIP T, p. 230

Il Th ey ha dn ’t

rep len ished, so we jus t gave
MARCH 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A.M . 27

it all back anyway.

President. I have a feeling we 

could handle this one. Well—

Dean. Well, first of all, they’d

have a hell of a time proving

it. Uh, that’s one thing. Uh—

President. Yeah, yeah—1 just have a

feeling on it. But let's now

come back to the money, a

million dollars, and so forth

and so on. Let me say that

I think you could get tha t

in cash,

and I know money is hard,

but there are ways.

That could be [unintelligible].

But the point is, uh, 

what would you do on that—

Let’s, let’s look at the hard 

facts.

it all back anyway.

P I had a feeling we 

could handle this one.

D Well, first of all, 1 would 

have a hell of a time proving 

it. That is one thing.

P I just have a 

feeling on it. Well, it sounds 

like a lot of money, a 

million dollars.

Let my say that 

I think we could get that.

I know money is hard 

to raise.

But the point is,

what we do on that—

Let’s look at the hard 

problem—

HOUSE J UD ICIA RY COMMITT EE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 119

P resident. Yeah, these fellows—

But of course you know, 

these fellows though, as 

far as that plan was 

concerned.

Haldeman. But what is there ?

P resident. As fa r as what happened

up to this time,

our cover there is just

going to be the Cuban

Committee did this

for them up through

the election.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 231

P These fellows though, as

far as what has happened

up to this time,

are covered on their situation,

because the Cuban

Committee did this

for them during

the election ?

HOU SE JU DI CIAR Y C OMM ITTEE 

TRANSCRIP T, p. 120

President. That’s right. Jus t

be damned sure you

say I don’t

Haldeman. Yeah—

P resident, remember; I can’t recall,

1 can’t give any honest, an answer to 

that that I can recall.

But tha t’s it.

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 235

P But you can

say I don’t

remember. You can say I can’t recall.

I can’t give any answer to 

that that I can recall.

36-316 0 - 7 4 - 3
28 MARC H 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A .M .

H O U SE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TEE 

TRAN SCRIP T, p. 121

P resident, th at’s why your,

for yo ur imme dia te th in g you’ve got 

no choice with H unt bu t the 

hu nd red and twe nty or wh atever 

it is. Rig ht ?

Dean. T hat ’s rig ht.

P resident. Would you agre e

th at th at’s a buy ti me thin g,

you b ett er dam n well ge t th at

done, bu t fast ?

Dean. I th ink he ou ght to be

given some s ign al, any way, to,

to—

P resident. Yes.

Dean. Yeah—you know.

P resident. Well fo r C hr ist’s sakes 

get it in a, in a way th at , 

uh—who’s, who ’s going to talk 

to him ? Colson ? H e’s the one 

who’s supp osed to kno w him.

W H IT E HO USE TRA N SCRIP T, pp. 236-37 

P T hat ’s why

for yo ur imm ediate things you h ave

no choice bu t to come up w ith

the $120,000, or whateve r

it is. R ig ht ?

D T hat ’s rig ht.

P Would you agre e

th at th at’s the p rim e th in g

th at you damn well be tte r ge t th at

done?

D Obviously he ou gh t to be

given some sig nal any w’ay.

P (Ex pletive de let ed),

ge t it. I n a w ay that 

—who is go ing to ta lk 

to h im ? C olson ? H e is the one 

who is supp osed to know him ?

H O U SE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TE E 

TRA N SCRIP T, p. 122

Dean. We ll, I, uh, I ga ther

La Ru e ju st leaves it

in mail boxes and

things like th at , an d

tells H unt

to go pic k it up.

Someone phones H unt

and tells him to

pick it up. As I say,

we’re a bunch of

am ate urs in th at

business.

W H IT E H O U SE TR A N SCRIP T, pp. 237-38

D We ll, I go t it to

La Ru e by ju st lea vin g it

in ma il boxes and

things like th at . An d

someone phones H un t

to come and

pick it up. As I say,

we are a bun ch of

am ate urs in th at

business.

H O U SE JU D IC IA R Y CO M M IT TEE 

T R A N SC R IP T, p. 122

P resident. We ll, th e main point, now, 

is the people who will need 

the money [unintell igible].

Well of cours e, you’ve got 

the su rplus from the cam paign.

Tha t we have to acc oun t for.

W H IT E H O U SE TR A N SCRIP T, p. 238

P We ll, of course you have 

a su rplus from the cam paig n.
MA RCH 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A.M . 29

But if there’s any other money 

hanging around—

Is there any other money 

hanging around?

HOUSE JU DI CIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRAN SCRIP T, p. 125

President. But, but my point is, 

do you ever have any 

choice on Hunt ? That’s 

the point.

Dean. [Sighs]

President. No matte r what we do 

here now, John,

Dean. Well, if we—

President. Hun t eventually, if he 

isn’t going to get 

commuted and so forth, 

he’s going to 

blow the whistle.

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCRIP T, p. 242

P But my point is, 

do you ever have any 

choice on Hunt ? Th at is 

the point.

No matter what we do 

here now, John,

whatever he wants if he 

doesn’t get it— 

immunity, etc., 

he is going to 

blow the whistle.

HOUSE JU DI CIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRAN SCRIP T, P. 125-26

Dean. Uh, we don’t, it doesn’t 

President. Including Ehrlichman’s use 

of Hu nt on the other deal ?

Dean. That’s right.

President. You’d throw th at out ?

Dean. Uh, well, Hun t will go to 

jail for that too—he’s 

got to understand that.

President. That’s the point too. I 

don’t think that—I 

wouldn’t throw that out.

I think I would limit it to—

I don’t think you need to go 

into every God damned 

thing Hunt has done.

WHI TE HOUSE TR ANSCR IPT, p. 243

D [• • • •]—And we don’t, it doesn’t—

P (Unintelligible) 

for another year.

D That’s right.

P And Hu nt would get off by

telling them the Ellsberg 

thing.

D No Hunt would go to

jail for that too—he 

should understand that.

P That’s a point too. I

don’t think I

would throw that out.

I don’t think we need to go

into everything, (adjective deleted)

thing Hunt has done.

HOUSE JU DI CIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRANSCRIP T, p. 129-30

President. All right. Fine. And, uh, 

my point is that, uh, we can, uh, 

you may well come—

WHITE HOUSE TRAN SCRIP T, p. 248

P Alright. Fine. And 

my point is tha t
30 MAR CH 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 A.M .

I th in k i t is good, fra nkly,

to cons ide r these va rious options.

An d th en, once you, once you decide 

on the p lan—J oh n—

and you ha d th e ri gh t plan , 

let me say, I have no doubts 

abo ut th e rig ht plan before 

the election. An d you handle d i t 

ju st rig ht. Y ou contained it.

Now a fter the election we’ve got 

to have anoth er pla n, because we can ’t 

have, for four years, we can ’t have 

this thi ng —we’re go ing to be eaten 

away. W e can’t do it.

I think it is good, fr an kly 

to cons ider these variou s options .

An d then , once you decide

on th e r ig ht plan, you say , “J oh n, ”

you say, “ No doubts

about the rig ht pla n befor e 

the election. You h andle d it 

ju st rig ht. Y ou co ntained it.

An d now a fter the election we ha ve to 

have an oth er plan. Because we ca n’t 

fo r fou r years have 

th is th in g eating 

aw ay.” We can ’t do it.

HO USE JU D IC IA R Y C OM M IT TE E 

TR A N SCRIP T, p. 130

Dean. We ll, th ere’s been a cha nge 

in t he mood—

H aldeman. Jo hn’s po int is

exa ctly ri gh t, t h at the erosio n

here now is going to you, and

th at is the thin g that we’ve got

to turn off, at w hatev er

the cost. W e’ve got to fig ure out

whe re to turn it off at the

lowest cost we can , bu t at

wh ate ver cost it takes.

Dean. T hat ’s what, th at’s

wh at we hav e to do.

P resident. Well, th e erosion

is in evita bly go ing to come here,

ap ar t from any thing, you know,

people s ay ing th at , uh, well,

the W aterga te isn ’t a m ajo r

concern. I t isn’t. But it would,

bu t it will be. I t ’s bound to be

Dean. We cannot let you be

tarnish ed by t hat si tua tion.

P resident. Well, I [unin tel lig ibl e] 

also because I —A lth ou gh Ron Ziegle r 

has to go out—T hey

blam e th e [unin telligible ] the Whit e 

House [unin tel lig ible]

Dean. T hat ’s ri gh t.

P resident. We do n’t, uh, uh, I 

say t hat the White Hous e 

can ’t do it. Rig ht ?

Haldeman. Yeah.

Dean. Yes, sir.

W H IT E H OUSE T R A N SCRIP T, p. 249

H We sho uld change

th at a l ittle bit.

Jo hn’s po in t is

exa ctly ri gh t. Th e erosion

here now is going to you, and

th at is the th in g th at we hav e

to tu rn off at whatever

cost. We hav e to

tu rn it off at the

lowest cost we can, but at

whatever cost it takes.

D T hat ’s w hat

we have to do.

P W ell, the erosion

is inevitably going to come here,

ap ar t fr om an ything and all the

peop le s aying well

the W aterga te isn’t a m ajo r

issue. I t isn ’t. B ut

it will be. I t’s boun d to.

(U ninte lligib le)

has to go out. De lay ing

is the great danger to the Wh ite

House area.

We don’t

I say th at the Wh ite Hou se 

can’t do it. R ig ht ?

D Yes, Sir.
Conversa tion in the EOB Office

Among the President, John Dean, John Ehrlichman, and

H. R. Haldeman

MARCH 2 1, 1 9 7 3 , FROM 5 :2 0 TO 6 :0 1 F.M .

MA RCH 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 P.M .

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 132

President. But, does, uh, does

anybody, uh, really think, really

think that really we should do

nothing? That ’s the other, I mean, 

tha t’s, that’s the option, period.

If, uh—keep fighting it out on 

this ground if it takes all summer.

Haldeman. Which it will.

President. That’s the other thing, 

whether we’re going to, say, to 

contain the thing.

Eiirlichman. Well, we’ve talked 

about that. We talked about, uh, 

possible opportunities in the Senate, 

that, that may turn up th at we don’t 

foresee now.

In other words, that you go in

and start playing for the odds.

Keep trying to put out

fires here and there.

The problem of the Hunt thing [. . . .]

WHITE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 251-52

P [• • • .] Does

anybody really

think we can do

nothing?

Tha t’s the option, period.

If he fights it out on

this ground, it takes all summer.

H Which it will.

P That’s it,

whether or not today

at the danger point.

Il Well, we have talked

about that. We have talked about

possible opportunities in the Senate.

Things may turn up th at we don’t

foresee now.

Some people may be sort

of playing the odds.

E The problem of the Hunt thing [. . . .]

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMM ITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 133

Eiirlichman. Well, my, my view is that, 

that, uh, Hu nt’s interests lie in 

getting a pardon if he can.

Tha t ought to be, somehow 

or another, one of the options 

tha t he is most particularly 

concerned about. Uh, his, 

his indirect contacts with 

John don’t contemplate that 

at all. Well, maybe they, maybe 

they contemplate it—but 

they say there’s going 

[unintelligible]

President. I know.

Haldeman. That’s right.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSCRIPT, p. 252

E Well, my view is that

Hunt’s interests lie in

getting a pardon if he can.

That ought to be somehow

or another one of the options

tha t he is most particularly

concerned about. Now,

his indirect contacts with

John don’t contemplate that

at all—(inaudible)

33
34 MARCH 2 1 , 19 73 P. M .

Ehrlichman. They think that 

tha t’s already understood. 

President. Yeah.

Ehrlichman. Uh—

President I mean he’s got to get 

tha t by Christinas time.

Dean. That’s right. [. . .]

P He assumes 

tha t’s already understood.

I) He’s got to get that 

by Christmas, I understand. 

E That’s right. [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 133

President. If that blows.

Ehrlichman. If that blows and, 

and tha t’s, it seems to me, that the, 

uh—although at lea—It obviously 

is understood, that he has 

really gone over the ground 

with his attorney that’s in there.

President. However, can he, by 

talking, uh, get pardoned ?

Get, get clemency from the court ?

W HI TE HOU SE T RANSC RIPT, pp. 252-53

H If that blows—

E If th at blows and

tha t seems to me, 

although I doubt if he 

is understood, he has 

really turned over backwards 

since he has been in there.

However, can he, by 

talking, get a pardon?

Clemency from the Court ?

[ . . . . ] '

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 133

President. So then now—so 

the point we have to, the 

bridge you have to cut, uh, 

cross there is, uh, which you’ve 

got to cross, I understand, 

quite soon, is whether, uh, 

we, uh, what you do about, 

uh, his present demand.

Now, what, what, uh, what 

[unintelligible] about that?

Dean. Well, apparently Mitchell 

and, and, uh, uh.

Unidentified. LaRue.

Dean. LaRue are now aware 

of it, so they know what 

he is feeling.

President. True. [Unintelligible] 

do something.

Dean. I, I have, I have 

not talked with either.

I think they are in a position 

to do something, though.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 253

P Yeah. And then so 

the point we have to, 

the bridge we have 

to cross there, tha t you have 

to cross I understand 

quite soon, is what 

you do about

Hun t and his present finance ?

What do we 

do about th at ?

I) Well apparently Mitchell 

and

LaRue are now aware 

of it so they know how 

he is feeling.

P True. Are they 

going to do something?

I) Well. I have 

not talked with either 

of them. Their positions 

are sympathetic.
MARCH 2 1 , 1 9 7 3 P. M . 35

HOUSE JUD ICIARY COMMITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 134

Dean. Oh, yeah. Uh, Dwight,

for example, now wants a lawyer;

uh, uh, Kalmbach

has hired himself a lawyer;

Colson has retained a lawyer; and 

now that we’ve [unintelligible] 

enough to know that self-protection 

is setting in.

President. Well, let’s not trust them.

Dean. Surely.

President. Maybe we face the situation, 

[ - . . . ]

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 254

I) [. ..] Dwight,

for example,

hired himself a lawyer;

Colson has retained a lawyer; and

now tha t we are all

starting the self-protection

certainly.

P Maybe we face the situation

[ . . . . ]

HOUSE JU DI CIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 135

President. Yeah. That’s right.

Th at’s the point. That’s why

I say Pm, I ’m going to take

a lot of the heat. [Coughs]

Well, we have to realize that,

uh, the attrition is going to

be rather considerable.

That, that’s your point,

isn’t it?

Dean. I think it, it’s

hard to prevent. Now, tha t’s

why I raise the point of, of

this immunity concept again.

Tha t would take a lot of

heat. Obviously, the immunity

might—But it also [unintelligible] 

you find cannot be 

structured, that you’re con—, 

you’re concerned about, 

there’s something lurking here 

tha t has been brought to 

your attention of recent.

Uh, now is the time to get the 

facts. People have been 

protecting themselves.

Dean couldn’t get all 

the information. People 

wouldn’t give it to him.

Uh, there are indications now 

tha t there are other things, 

and you’d like to

WHITE HO USE TR ANSCR IPT, p. 255

P Well, that is why

I say on this

one tha t

we have to realize that

the system is going to

run and that

is your problem.

II The only problem

(inaudible)

D It is structured.

Tha t your concern about,

“There is something lurking here.”

Now is the time to get the 

facts before Richard 

Nixon himself.

Dean couldn’t get all the 

information. People 

wouldn’t give it to him.

There are things, 

there are a lot of things.

And if you would like to
36 MARCH 21 , 19 73 P.M.

get all this information 

and lay it before the 

public, but it’s not going to 

come out if people are going 

to go take the F ifth Amendment 

before a grand jury. It ’ll 

never be proved.

I—

President. And it isn’t going to 

come out of a committee.

get all of this information and 

you lay it before the 

public, but it is not going to 

come because some people go

to a Grand Jury and tell 

the truth .

H Lie?

P And it isn’t going to 

come out of the Committee.

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COM MITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 136

Dean. All right, is that, is 

that better ? Or is it better to 

have, you know, just, just keep 

going and have the thing build up 

and all of a sudden collapse ?

And, and people get indicted 

and people, uh, get tarnished.

President. After we’ve 

stonewalled it?

Dean. Afte r we've stonewalled it, 

and after the President’s been 

accused of covering up that way.

President. Th at’s the point.

Ehrlichman. Or is there another way ? 

President. Yeah, like—?

Ehrlichman. Like the, the Dean 

statements, where the President then 

makes a full disclosure of 

everything which he then has.

And is in a position if it 

does collapse at a later time 

to say, “Jesus, I had the FB I, 

and the Grand J ury , and I had 

my own counsel. I turned over 

every rock I could find. [. . .”]

WHI TE HOUSE TR ANS CRIPT, pp. 256-57

D Alright, is 

tha t better ? Or is it better to 

have (inaudible) and 

things blow up

and all of a sudden collapse ?

Think about it.

H Afte r a little time, 

the President is

accused of covering up that, way.

P That isn’t the point.

E Or is there another way ?

P Yeah, like—

E The Dean

statements, where the President then 

makes a bold disclosure of 

everything which he then has.

And is in a position if it

does collapse at a later time

to say, “I had the FB I

and the Grand Jury , and I had

my own Counsel. I turned over

every document I could find. [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JUD ICIA RY COMMITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 136

President. [ . . . . ] I ask 

for a, a written report, which 

I think, uh, th at—which 

is very general, understand.

Understand, [laughs] I don’t want

W HI TE HOU SE TRANSC RIPTS, p. 257

P [ . . . . ] I asked 

for a written report, which 

I do not have, which 

is very general understand.
MARCH 2 1 , 19 73 P. M . 37

to get all that God damned specific. 

I ’m thinking now in far 

more general terms, having in 

mind the fact tha t the 

problem with a specific 

report is that, uh, this proves 

this one and that one tha t one, 

and you just prove something that 

you didn’t do at all. But 

if you make it rather general in 

terms of my—your investigation 

indicates that this man did 

not do it, this man did not 

do it, this man did do that.

You are going to have to 

say that, John, you know, 

like the, uh, Segretti-Chapin—

I am thinking now in far 

more, general terms, having in 

mind the facts, that 

where specifics are concerned,

make it very general,

your investigation

of the case. Not tha t “this man

is guilty, this man is not

guilty,” but “this man did do that.”

You are going to have to

say that, John.

Segretti (inaudible) [ . . . . ]

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSCRIPT, pp. 139-40

E hrlichman. [. . . .] But, uh, beyond 

that, the question is, did we, 

did we authorize it, 

did we condone it,

President. Yeah.

Ehrlichman. did we 

President. Yeah.

Ehrlichman. support it? And 

that kind of thing.

President. And t ha t’s tha t 

part of it. Getting back 

to the, uh, getting back to 

this, John, uh, you still sort of 

tilt to the panel idea yourself?

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 261

E [ • • • • ] but beyond 

that, the question is did he 

completely authorize 

(inaudible)

P Yeah.

Getting back 

to this, John.

You still tilt to the 

panel idea yourself?

HOUSE JUD ICIARY COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 141

President. Strachan. Do the same 

to him with it.

Dean, Strachan?

President. Maybe. Not so much. 

Unidentified. Maybe Jeb.

Dean. [Unintelligible]

I think he has a problem.

President. Uh, the problem of 

knowledge of it.

WHI TE HOU SE T RANSC RIPT, p. 263

I* Strachan. This wouldn’t do 

anything to him would it?

I) Strachan?

I would say yes.

About the same as Jeb.

II Do you think so?

I) Yes. I think he has a problem.

P What is the problem 

about ?
38 MARCH 2 1 , 1 0 7 3 P. M .

Haldeman. He has a problem 

of knowledge.

Magruder has a problem 

of action.

President. Action and perjury.

II He has a problem

of knowledge.

I) Magruder has a problem

of action,

action and perjury.

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 143

Eiirlichman. You immediately 

eliminate one of your options.

You can, well, you can 

eliminate the option of the 

President being able to take 

the position he knew nothing 

about it.

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSCRIPT , p. 267

H What are your 

options ?

E Boy, if you could 

eliminate the option 

by taking a legal 

position. You knew nothing 

about it.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 145

Eiirlichman. The, the only 

thing that we can say is 

for Ziegler to say, “Look, 

we’ve investigated backwards 

and forwards in the White 

House, and we’re satisfied 

on the basis of the report we 

have that nobody in the 

White House has been involved 

in a bur gla ry; nobody had 

notice of it, knowledge of 

it, participated in the planning, 

or aided or abetted it in 

any way.”

President. Well, tha t’s what 

you could say.

Ehrlichman. And it happens to be 

true,

President. Yeah.

Ehrlichman. as for tha t transaction. 

President. [Laughs] Sure. As 

for tha t transaction.

Ehrlichman. Right.

President. Well, John, you, uh, you, 

uh, you must feel tha t’s, uh, is 

enough.

Dean. No [unintelligible]

W HI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 269

E The only 

thing we can say 

is that we

have investigated it backwards 

and forwards in the White 

House, and have been satisfied 

on the basis of the report we 

had that nobody in the 

White House has been involved 

in a burglary, nobody had 

notice of it, knowledge of 

it, participated in the planning, 

or aided or abetted it in 

any way.

And it happens to be 

true

as for tha t transaction.

P John , you don’t 

think that is 

enough ?

D No, Mr. President.
Conversation in the President’s EOB Office

Among the President, John Dean, John Ehrlichman,

H. R. Haldeman, and John Mitchell

MARCH 22, 1 9 7 3 , FROM 1 :57 TO 3 :4 3 P.M .

MA RCH 22, 1973 P.M .

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 153

E hrlichman. Our brother Mitchell 

brought us some wisdom on executive 

privilege which, I believe—

Mitchell. Technically, Mr. President,

I think the only problem [unintelligible] 

and I ’d prefer you just coming out 

and stating,

President. Tha t’s right.

Mitchell, and, uh, and I

would believe that, uh, it

would be well worthwhile to

consider to spoil the picture

to the point where under the

proper circumstances you can

settle with

certain former people in

the White House

and some [unintelligible]

[telephone rings] some of the

current people at the White

House [telephone rings] under

controlled circumstances should

go up and, uh—[telephone rings]

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 156-57

Mitchell. Rut [unintelligible]

for the sake of going about

discussion, in other words that—

Maybe we think that it’s

appropriate at this time to

formalize John’s theory on the

Segretti matter and the

Watergate matter based on

the documentation from the

FB I and [unintelligible] FB I

[unintelligible] in other words

based on—Can the Grand

Jury—what we know came

out of there, the trial

[unintelligible] as far as that one

incident—whatever the record,

uh, could have been available

to me. This is why the

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 277

E Our Brother Mitchell

brings us some knowledge on executive 

privilege which I believe—

M (Inaudible)

P I wish Byrd would come out

and state—

I

believe it

would be well worthwhile to—

M Well, there

certainly could be stronger people in 

Washington

P There may be some

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 281-82

M Well, gentlemen

for the sake of

discussion (inaudible)

the normal procedure

for the

Segretti matter and the

like based on

the evaluation of the

FB I made (inaudible)

or whether it is

based on the Grand

Jury and

the trial

transcript or

whatever the record

could have been available

to me—

41
42 MARCH 22, 1973

investigation of—we had the 

memorandum wTith the back-up— 

you know, obviously the FB I 

after all [unintelligible] 

and so forth couldn’t find 

anything more. It ’s not expected 

tha t you could or [unintelligible] 

get out by way of their 

interrogation [unintelligible] 

uh, two memorandums from 

Dean is important

[unintelligible] appropriate 

time with it. John did, 

and say I [unintelligible] 

all the public records 

[unintelligible]

President. We’ve tried tha t 

though, John. Uh—

Dean. [Clears throat] Why won’t— 

President. We still have grave 

doubts about it, though.

Dean. Well, I don’t know— 

Mitchell. I did too before,

Mr. President. [. . . .]

investigation of the 

past memorandum 

would indict him. 

(inaudible)

(two memorandum 

tha t the courts 

have public records)

P We tried that 

move, Joh n—

M Well, I did too— 

before Mr. President. [ . . . . ]

HOUSE J UD ICIARY COMM ITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, p. 159

Eiirlichman. A case in point: 

the issue of w hether or not I had 

a phone call reporting the burglary.

Dean. Right.

Eiirlichman. Now, that’s all I 

know about the damn thing is tha t 

the Secret Service, or some policeman phoned.

Dean. But they could go on forever 

with you on that.

President. Exactly.

Dean. And I think it ought to be 

things like we’ve got in, in this 

report and this might be, you 

know, get, give it to Ervin on 

the confidence that we’re not 

talking about documents being 

released. We’re talking about 

something that’s entirely facts. You 

could even [unintelligible] write a 

[unintelligible]

W HI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 284-85

H In case of tha t the Committee 

w ould issue a w arra nt 

on our phone calls. Bu lly !

P That’s right.

H Tha t is all I

know about the damn thing is that 

the Secret Service at some point 

has been bugged.

D And that could go on forever 

with you on that tack.

I could draw’ these

things like this Staff into this

report and have Ivleindienst

come get it and give it to Ervin

in confidence—I am not

talkin g about documents you

see. I am talkin g about

something we can spread as facts. You

see you could even w rite a

novel with the facts.
MARCH 22, 1973 43

HOUSE JUD ICIARY CO MMITTEE 

TRANSCR IPT, P . 161

Mitchell. The President’s report 

will show that, uh, your simple 

thought—your simple involvement 

was missing in the pub bill.

Haldeman. No, it would show 

more on my book, I ’m afraid.

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCRIP T, P. 287

M I think the Court

would show that a very simple

thought, involvement

with the (inaudible)

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSCRIPT, p. 164

President. I^et me ask this. Uh, 

the, this question is for John 

Ehrlichman and, uh, John Dean.

Uh, now you were the two who 

felt the strongest, uh, on the 

executive privilege thing 

[unintelligible].

If I am not mistaken, you thought 

we ought to draw the line 

where we did [unintelligible].

Have you changed your mind now?

Dean. No sir, I think it’s a, I think 

it’s a terrific statement.

It’s—It, it puts you just 

where you should be. I t’s got 

enough flexibility in it. It ’s—

President. But now—what— 

all tha t John Mitchell is arguing, 

then, is that now we, we use 

flexibility

Dean. That’s correct.

President. In order to get on

with the coverup plan.

WH ITE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 290

P Let me ask this.

This question is for John

Ehrlichman and Dean.

You were the two that

felt the strongest on

executive privilege thing.

If I am not mistaken, you thought

we ought to draw a line

here.

Have you changed your mind now?

I) No, I thin k 

it is a terriffic statement.

It puts you just

where you should be. There is

enough flexibility in it.

P Well all John Mitchell is arguing

then, is that now we use

flexibility

in order to get off

the coverup line.

HOUSE JU DICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCRIP T, p. 170

P resident. That’s right. But

the point is, we’ve got to accept 

the decision of Judge Byrne’s [unintelligible] on the bail. The other 

thin g to do on the Dean thing is say 

—you’d simply say, “Now, that’s out.

Dean has—he makes the report.

Here’s everything Dean knows.”

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 298

P Well on the Dean thin g— 

you simply say well tha t is out. 

Dean has made this report 

and here is everything Dean knows.
44 MA RCH 22, 1D73

Dean. Right.

P resident. T hat ’s where, th at’s 

why the Dean repo rt is critica l. 

E hr uc hm an . I think , Jo hn , on 

Monday could say to Erv in 

if th at, uh, question comes up, 

“I , T know the Pr esiden t’s 

mind on this. H e’s

adam ant about my tes tifyin g, 

as such. At the same tim e 

he has always ind icated 

th at the frui ts of my 

inv estigation will be known.” 

And ju st leave it at 

th at fo r the mom ent.

E I th ink Jo hn on 

Monday you could say to Er vin 

if the question comes up,

“I know th e Pr esiden t’s

mind on th is and he is

ad am an t about my testify ing

as such. At the same time

he has alw ays ind icated

th at the fr uits of my

inv estig ati on should be ava ilab le to you

An d just leave i t a t

th at fo r the time being .

HO USE JU D IC IA R Y COM M IT TE E 

TRA N SCRIP T, pp. 178-79

P resident, the , uh—Now, uh, 

we could—H ave you considered any 

oth er poss—, h ave you considered 

the oth er,

all other possibilities you see here,

Jo hn ?

You, you’re the one who is supposed 

to—

Dean. T hat ’s rig ht. I th in k we,

P resident. You know the bodies.

Dean. I th in k we’ve 

had a good go-rou nd on—

P resident. You th ink , you think 

we w ant to, wa nt to go this 

route now ? An d the —Le t i t h ang 

out, so to sp eak ?

Dean. We ll, it, it isn’t really th at — 

II aldeman. I t ’s a lim ited ha ng out.

Dean. I t’s a l imited ha ng out.

E hrlichman. I t’s a modified lim ited 

ha ng out.

P resident. Well, it ’s only the 

questions of th e th in g h an gin g out 

public ly or pri vately.

Dean. W ha t it ’s doing, Mr.

President, is ge tti ng you up 

above an d a way from it. And 

th at’s the most im po rta nt thin g.

W H IT E HOUSE TRAN SCRIP T,

P Yeah.

Have you considered any

othe r possibilities?

Jo hn ,

you a re the one who is su pposed 

to

know the bodies.

D T hat ’s righ t. I think we have

ha d a good go- round on t he 

things now\

P Do you th in k 

we w ant to go this 

route now ? Le t it han g 

ou t so to spe ak ?

D Well, it isn’t really th at —

H I t’s a limited hang out.

D It is a li mited ha ng out.

I t’s not an absolute h ang out.

P But some of the 

questions look big hangin g out 

publicly o r pri vately.

I) W ha t i t is doing, M r.

Pr esiden t, is ge tti ng you up 

above and away from it.

Tha t is the most impo rta nt thin g.
MARCH 22, 1973 45

President. Oh, I know. But I 

suggested that the other day and 

we all came down on, uh, remember 

on the negative on it. Now what’s 

changed our mind ?

Dean. The lack of alternatives 

or a body.

[Laughter.]

E hrlichman. We, went down every 

alley. [Laughter] Let it go over. 

President. Well, I feel that at, 

uh, I feel that this is, that, 

uh, I feel that at the very minimum 

we’ve got to have the statement and, 

uh, let’s look at it,

whatever the hell it is.

If, uh, if it opens up doors,

it opens up doors, you know.

P Oh, I know. I

suggested that the other day and 

they all came down— 

negative on it. Now, what has 

changed their minds ?

I)---- Lack of a candidate

or a body.

II Laughter.

M [Inaudible] We went down every

alley.

P I feel that at a

very minimum

we’ve got to have this statement.

I^et s look at it. I don’t know what 

it—where in the hell is it—

If it opens up doors,

it opens up doors—you know.

The following portion at the end of the March 22, 1973 conversation 

(beginning on p. 180 of the House Judiciary Committee transcrip ts) does not 

appear in the “Submission of Recorded Presidential Conversations, April 30, 

1974” nor does it appear in the tran script provided by the White House to 

the Special Prosecutor in January 1974 and to the Judiciary Committee in 

March 1974.

President. Sure, sure.

Ehrlichman. Okay.

[Note.—At this point, a portion of the discussion has been deleted.] 

Mitchell. [Unintelligible]

President. Yeah.

Mitchell. Believe me, it’s a lot of work.

President. Oh, great. I may [unintelligible]. Well, let me tell you, you've 

done a hell of a job here.

Unidentified. [Unintelligible]

President. I didn't mean for you. I thought we had a boy here. No, you, 

uh, John, uh, carried a very, very heavy load. Uh, lxith Joh ns as a matter of 

fact, but, uh, I was going to say, uh, uh, John Dean is, uh, [unintelligible] 

got—put the fires out, almost got the damn thing nailed down till past the 

election and so forth. We all know what it is. Embarrassing God damn thing 

the way it went, and so forth. But, in my view, uh, some of it will come out; 

we will survive it. T hat’s the way it is. T hat’s the way you've got to look at it. 

Dean. We were within a few miles months ago, but, uh, we’re—

President. The point is, get the God damn thing over with.

Dean. That’s right.

President. That’s the thing to do. That's the other thing tha t I like about 

this. I ’d like to get—But you really would draw the line on—But, I know, we 

can't make a complete cave and have the people go up there and testify. You 

would agree on that?

Mitchell. I agree.
46 MARCH 22, 1973

President. You agree on that, John?

Dean. If we’re in the posture of everything short of giving them a public 

session [unintelligible] and the whole deal. You’re not hiding anything. 

President. Yeah. Particularly if, particularly if we have the Dean statement. 

Dean. And they’ve been given out.

P resident. And your view about the Dean statement is to give tha t to the 

Committee and not make it public, however.

Dean. That’s correct, I think th at’s—

Preisdent. And say it’s, uh—

Mitchell. Give it to the Committee for the purpose—

President. —the purpose of their investigation.

Mitchell. [Unintelligible] to limit the number of witnesses 

President. Yeah.

Mitchell, which are called up there, instead of a buck-shot operation. 

President. And say here, and also say, “This may help you in your investigation.”

Mitchell. Right.

President. “This is everything we know, Mr. Senator.” That’s what I was 

preparing to say. “This is everything we know; I know nothing more. This is 

the whole purpose, and that’s that. If you need any further information, my, 

our counsel will furnish it, uh, that is not in here.” It ’d be tempting to—“But 

this is all we know. Now, in addition to that, you are welcome to have, have 

people, but you’ve got to have—” I think tha t the best way to have it is in 

executive session, but incidentally, you say executive session for those out of 

government as well as in ?

Mitchell. That’s right.

President. Chapin and Colson should be called in.

Dean. [Unintelligible]

President. I would think so.

Mitchell. Sure. Because you have the same problem.

President. You see we ask—but your point—we ask for, uh, the privilege, 

and at least, you know, we, we, our statement said it applies to former as 

well as present [unintelligible]

Dean. Now, our statement—you leave a lot of flexibility that you normally— 

for one thing, taking the chance appearing, and uh, however, informal 

relationships will always be worked out [unintelligible]

President. Informal relations.

Dean. That’s right.

Mitchell. You have the same basis—

President. Well, it might. When I say that, that, that—the written interrogatory thing is not as clear [unintelligible] maybe Ervin is making it that 

way, but I think that’s based on what maybe, uh, we said that the—I don’t think 

I said we would only write, in, in the press conference, written interrogatories. 

Dean. That’s right. I don’t think—

President. I didn’t say that at all.

Dean. Ervin just jumped to th at conclusion as a result of my letter to, uh 

P resident. I think that’s what it was.

Dean. I think that’s what’s happened.

President. Not that your letter was wrong—it was right. But, uh, the whole 

written interrogatory, we didn’t discuss other possibilities.
MA RC H 22, 1973

Mitchell. With respect to your ex-employees, you have the same problem of 

getting into areas of privileged communications. You certainly can make a 

good case for keeping them in executive session.

President. That’s right.

Mitchell. [Unintelligible]

President. And, and in this sense the precedent for working—you can do it in 

cases in the future, which [unintelligible] executive session, and then the 

privilege can be raised without having, uh, on a legal basis, without having the 

guilt by the Fifth Amendment, not like pleading the Fi fth Amendment— 

Mitchell. Right.

President, the implication always being raised.

Mitchell. [Unintelligible] and self-protection in that view ?

President. What? Yeah.

Dean. [Unintelligible] Fifth Amendment.

President. That’s right. That’s what we’re going to do here.

Mitchell. Those—boy, this th ing has to be turned around. Got to get you off 

the lid.

President. Right.

Dean. All right.

President. All right, fine, Chuck.

Mitchell. Good to see you.

President. How long were you in Florida ? Just, uh—

Mitchell. I was down there overnight. I was four hours on the witness stand 

testifying for the government in these, uh, racket cases involving wiretapping. 

The God damn fool Judge down there let them go all over the lot and ask me 

any questions th at they wanted to. Just ridiculous. You know, this had, all has 

to do with the discretionary act of signing a piece of paper tha t I ’m authorized 

by the statute. There were twenty-seven hood lawyers th at questioned me. 

President. You know, uh, the, uh, you, you can say when I [unintelligible] I 

was going to say tha t the, uh— [Picks up phone] Can you get me Prime Minister Trudeau in Canada, please. [Hangs us] I was going to say th at Dean has 

really been, uh, something on this.

Mitchell. Tha t he has, Mr. President, no question about it, he’s a very— 

President. Son-of-a-bitching tough thing.

Mitchell. ou’ve got a very solid guy that’s handled some tough things. 

And, I also want to say these lawyers that you have think very highly of him. 

I know that John spends his time with certain ones—

President. Dean ? Discipline is very high.

Mitchell. Parkinson, O’Brien.

President. Yes, Dean says i t’s great. Well, you know I feel for all the people, 

you know, I mean everybody t ha t’s involved. Hell, is all we’re doing is their 

best to [unintelligible] and so forth. [Unintelligible]. That’s, that’s why I 

can’t let you go, go down, John? It ’s all right. Come in.

Dean. Uh—

President. Did you find out anything?

Dean. I was, I went over to Ziegler’s office. They have an office over there. 

Paul O’Brien’ll be down here in a little while to see you. I’m going over to 

Ziegler’s office and finish this up now.

Mitchell. Are you coming back ?

Dean. Yes, I'll come back over here then.
48 MARCH 22, 1973

Mitchell. Okay.

President. Yeah. Well, when you come back—he can, uh, is tha t office open 

for John now?

Dean. Yes.

President. Then he can go over there as soon [unintelligible] this. But, uh, 

the, uh, the one thing I don’t want to do is to—Now let me make this clear. I, I,

I thought it was, uh, very, uh, very cruel thing as it turned out—although at 

the time I had to tell [unintelligible]—what happened to Adams. I don’t want 

it to happen with Watergate—the Watergate matter. I think he made a, made 

a mistake, but he shouldn’t have been sacked, he shouldn’t have been—And, uh, 

for that reason, I am perfectly willing to—I don’t give a shit what happens. I 

want you all to stonewall it, let them plead the Fifth Amendment, cover-up or 

anything else, if it’ll save it—save the plan. That’s the whole point. On the 

other hand, uh, uh, I would prefer, as I said to you, that you do it the other way. 

And I would particularly prefer to do it tha t other way if it’s going to come 

out that way anyway. And that my view, that, uh, with the number of jackass 

people that they’ve got tha t they can call, they’re going to—The story they get 

out through leaks, charges, and so forth, and innuendos, will be a hell of a lot 

worse than the story they’re going to get out by just letting it out there. 

Mitchell. Well—

President. I don’t know. But th at’s, uh, you know, up to this point, the whole 

theory has been containment, as you know, John.

Mitchell. Yeah.

President. And now, now we’re shifting. As far as I’m concerned, actually 

from a personal standpoint, if you weren’t making a personal sacrifice—it’s 

unfa ir—Haldeman and Dean. Tha t’s what Eisenhower—that’s all he cared 

about. He only cared about—Christ, “ Be sure he was clean.” Both in the fund 

thing and the Adams thing. But I don’t look at it that way. And I just—Tha t’s 

the thing I am really concerned with. We’re going to protect our people, if 

we can.

Mitchell. Well, the important thing is to get you up above it for this first 

operation. And then to see where the chips fall and, uh, and, uh, get through 

this Grand Jury thing up here. Uh, then the Committee is another question. 

[Telephone rings] What we ought to have is a reading as to what is [telephone 

rings] coming out of this Committee and we, if we handle the cards as it 

progresses. [Telephone rings]

President. Yeah. But anyway, we’ll go on. And, uh, I think in order—it’ll 

probably turn just as well, getting them in the position of, even though it hurts 

for a little while.

Mitchell. Yeah.

P resident. You know what I mean. People say, “Well, the President’s [unintelligible],” and so forth. Nothing is lasting. You know people get so disturbed about [unintelligible]. Now, when we do move [unintelligible] we can 

move, in a, in a, in a, in the proper way.

Mitchell. If you can do it in a controlled way it would help and good, but, 

but, but the other thing you have to remember is that this stuff is going to come 

out of that Committee, whether—

President. That’s right.

Mitchell. And it’s going to come out no matter what.
MARCH 23, 1973 49

As if, as if I, and then it looks like I tried to keep it from coming 

That’s why it’s important tha t tha t statement go up to the ComP resident. 

out.

Mitchell. 

mittee.

President. [Picks up phone.] Hello. I don’t want to talk. Sure. [Hangs Up.] 

Christ, Sure, we’ll-----

Mitchell. It’s like these Cray, Gray hearings. They had it five days running 

tha t the files were turned over to Jo hn Dean, just five days running—the same 

story.

President. Same story.

Mitchell. Right.

President. The files should have been turned over.

Mitchell. Just should have, should have demanded them. You should have 

demanded all of them.

President. [Unintelligible] what the hell was he doing as counsel to the 

President without getting them? He was—I told him to conduct an investigation, and he did.

Mitchell. I know.

President. Well, it’s like everything else.

Mitchell. Anything else for us to—

President. Get on tha t other thing. If Baker can—Baker is not proving much 

of a reed up to this point. He’s smart enough.

Mitchell. Howard is smart enough, but, uh, we’ve got to carry him. Uh, I 

think he has and I’ve been puzzling over a way to have a liaison with him and, 

and, uh—

President. He won’t talk on the phone with anybody according to Kleindienst. 

He thinks his phone is tapped.

Mitchell. He does ?

President. Who’s tappin g his phone ?

Mitchell. I don’t know.

President. Who would he think, who would he think would tap his phone? 

I guess maybe that we would.

Mitchell. I don’t doubt that.

President. He must think that Ervin—

Mitchell. Maybe.

President. Or, or a newspaper.

Mitchell. Newspaper, or, or the Democratic Party, or somebody. There’s got 

to be somebody to liaison with Kleindienst to get in a position where—It ’s all 

right from foreknowledge through Kleindienst.

President. You really wonder i f you take Wally Johnson and, uh—He’s a 

pretty good boy, isn’t he ?

Mitchell. Yeah. [Unintelligible]

President. You might, you might throw tha t out to Dean. Dean says he 

doesn’t want to be in such a, such a public position. He talked to the Attorney 

General [unintelligible] Wally Johnson. And he said tha t—

Mitchell. Well, he will be in the Department,

President. Yeah.

Mitchell, talking to the Department.

President. [Unintelligible] Mansfield’s down there—
50 MARCH 22, 1973

Mitchell. Everything else under control ?

President. Yeah, we’re all doing fine. I think, though, tha t as long as, uh, 

everyone and so forth, is a, uh—[unintelligible] still [unintelligible]

Mitchell. All of Washington—the public interest in this thing, you know. 

President. It isn’t nash—[unintelligible] er, national [unintelligible] concerns me. [Unintelligible] worries the shit out of us here regard—, regarding 

[unintelligible]

Mitchell. Just in time.

President. But the point is that, uh, I don’t—There’s no need for [unintelligible]. I have nothing but intuition but hell, I don’t know. I, but—Again 

you really have to protect the Presidency, too. That’s the point.

Mitchell. Well this does no violence to the Presidency at all, this concept— 

President. The whole scenario.

Mitchell. Yeah.

President. No, it, uh, uh, d—, tha t’s what I mean. The purpose of this 

scenario is to clean the Presidency. [Unintelligible] what they say “All right. 

Here’s the report, we’re going to cooperate with the Committee,” and so forth 

and so on. The main thing is to answer [unintelligible] and tha t should be a 

God damned satisfactory answer, John.

Mitchell. It should lie.

President. Shouldn’t it.

Mitchell. It answers all of their complaints they’ve had to date. 

President. That’s right. They get cross-examination.

Mitchell. Right. They get everything but the public spectacle.

President. Public spectacle. And the reason we don’t have that is because 

you have to argue.

Mitchell. They have to argue and—

President, on a legal and you don’t want them to be, uh, used as a, uh, uh, 

for unfairly, to, to have somebody charged.

Mitchell. It’s our fault th at you have somebody charged with not answering 

the Committee’s questions [unintelligible] to John, make sure you put it in, 

make sure tha t you put it again in the argument, the clean record, and that’s 

the reason why you have an executive session. Because the record tha t comes 

out of it is clean. But, uh, in areas of dispute—

President. I ’d rather think, though, th at all of their yakking about this, uh, 

we often said, John—we’ve got problems.

Mitchell. [Unintelligible]

President. Might cost them [unintelligible]. Think of th eir problems. They, 

those bastards are really—they’re just really something. Where is their leadership ?

Mitchell. They don't have any leadership, and they're leaping on every new 

issue.

[Note.—At this point, a portion of the discussion has been deleted.]
Conversation in the Oval Office

Between the Pre sident and John Dean

APRIL 16, 1 9 7 3 , FROM 1 0 :0 0 TO 10 Z40 A.M .

APRIL 16, 1973 P.M.

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 195

President. But, you had

knowledge; Haldeman had a lot of 

knowledge; and Ehrlichman had 

knowledge.

Dean. Right.

President. And I suppose I

did. I mean, I am planning to

assume some culpability on that

[unintelligible]

Dean. I don’t think so.

President. Why not ?

Dean. Uh—

President. I plan to be tough

on myself as I am on the other thing, 

though, I, I must say I didn't really 

give it a thought at the time because 

I didn’t know, uh—

Dean. No one gave it a thought.

President. You did. You did.

WHI TE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 798

P But you had

knowledge; Haldeman had

knowledge; Ehrlichman had

knowledge

and I suppose I

did th at night. That

assumes culpability on that,

doesn’t it ?

I) I don’t think so.

P Why not ?

I plan to be tough

on myself so I can handle the other thing.

I must say I did not even 

give it a thought at the time.

I) No one gave it a thought

at the time.

HOU SE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRANSCR IPT, p. 199

President. What got Magruder

to talk ?

Dean. Uh—

President. I would like to take

the credit.

Dean. Because, because, well, uh,

[laughs] he knew tha t—

President. I thought—I 

was hoping tha t you had seen him, 

because, uh—

Dean. There was—Well, he was, 

he was told, he was told (1) 

that, you know, there was going 

to be no chance—

President. You remember, though, 

when you made the statement about, 

uh, just making a note here about 

drawing the wagons up around the

WHI TE HOUSE TRANSCR IPT, p. 804

P What got Magruder

to talk ?

I would like to take

the credit.

D Well.

P I

was hoping you had seen him

because—

D He was told, one,

tha t there was

no chance.

P As a matter of fact,

he made a statement about

(inaudible)

around the

53
54 APRIL 1 6 , 1 0 7 3 A.M .

White House. Uh, based uh, 

basically you thought the 

primary [unintelligible]— 

this was talking about preDean. Pre—

President, knowledge—was 

all in the Committee. Right? 

Dean. That’s right. Where it is. 

President. That’s right. B ut 

on Magruder, come again. 

Wh at’s the deal, deal there ?

White House. I guess

this was preprimaries—it was 

all committed.

P But

on Magfuder, come again.

HOUSE JU DICIA RY COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 200-01

President. —I’m sure. On Liddy,

I wanted to be sure tha t I, th at 

you recall, on our conversation, I, 

uh—You asked me to do 

something. I’ve left it with 

Petersen now. He said he’d handle

it. Uh, tha t’s the proper place-----

Dean. That’s right.

President. You see, when Liddy 

says he can’t talk unless he hears 

from higher authority—I am not 

his higher authority.

Dean. No.

President. It’s Mitchell.

Dean. Well, but I think he’s looking 

for the ultimate-----

President. What do you think 

he’s thinking about ?

Dean. I think he’s thinking about 

the President.

President. Clemency ?

Dean. He thinks—he has 

the impression tha t you and 

Mitchell probably talk on the 

telephone daily about this.

President. You know* we’ve 

never talked about it.

Dean. I understand that.

President. I have never 

talked to Mitchell about this.

Oh, except about when, whether 

we go, uh, the executive 

privilege thing.

Dean. Right.

WHITE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, 

pp. 805-06

P On Liddy 

I wanted to be sure.

You recall our conversation.

You asked me to do 

something. I have left it with 

Petersen now and he said he would handle 

it. That’s the proper place.

When Liddy

says he cannot talk with peers 

it must be higher authority, I am not 

his higher authority.

It is Mitchell.

D Well, he obviously is looking 

for the ultimate,

D but I think he is looking for 

the ultimate.

He has

the impression that you and 

Mitchell probably talk on the 

telephone daily about this.

P You know we have

never talked about this.

D I understand that.

P I have never

talked to Mitchell about this 

except when whether 

we go the executive 

privilege thing.

D Right.
Conve rsation in the Oval Office

Between the Preside nt and John Dean

APRIL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 , FROM 4 :0 7 TO 4 : 3 5 P.M .

A PR IL 16,

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITTEE 

TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 211-12

President. And that 

goes out ahead of, frankly 

the MagruderMitchell head-chop 

business.

Dean. That’s righ t; what’s the 

timing on that?

Do you know ?

1973 P. M .

WHI TE HOU SE TRA NSC RIPT, p. 959

P (unintelligible) I don’t

know tha t the letter 

(inaudible) and that 

goes out ahead, frankly, 

of the MagruderMitchell hitch 

doesn’t it ?

D Th at’s right, I wasn’t

counting on that—

HOUSE JUDICIAR Y COMMITT EE 

TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 215-18

Dean. Can’t [unintelligible]—

Yes, I said, “No abuse.”

President. Right.

Dean. [Unintelligible]

President. [Unintelligible] Magruder 

[unintelligible]

Dean. They’re

taking him into court to do this.

President. Huh ?

Dean. They’re going to take Magru— 

President. I know.

Dean. —der into court to do this.

President. Lou Lavelle [phonetic] went. 

[Unintelligible]

Dean. I know.

President. [Unintelligible]

Dean. I don’t think we’re going 

to have many leaks out of the Grand 

Jury or, or the [unintelligible] court.

Local court et cetera.

President. Uh, but uh, what do you 

think John [unintelligible] operating 

too short—by a day.

Dean. Wha t about Hunt, too.

President. You, Haldeman and 

Ehrlichman. Magruder knows. I ’d like

WHITE HOUSE TRA NSC RIPT, pp. 963-65

Something about Magruder

I) —they are going to take him to the courts

P I know—he has agreed to (inaudible)

57
58 APR IL 1 6 , 19 73 P.M .

to follow that. [Unintelligible]

Dean. What—How can he respond 

to that? I don’t understand that. 

President. Uh huh.

Dean. [Unintelligible] his testimony 

before the Grand Jury.

President. This testimony makes a 

statement [unintelligible]

Dean. I can’t in public statement 

without naming any individuals. 

[Unintelligible] the rights of tha t 

individual. T hat’s why I don’t think 

that I, I can’t foresee what he’s 

going to say. [Unintelligible] 

naming any, any individual.

President. You see, I think my own 

[unintelligible] I requested that the 

U.S. Attorney call before the Grand 

Jury.

Dean. [Unintelligible] all, all 

your staff.

President. I am to cooperate.

Dean. Um huh.

President. How about trying that 

for a little [unintelligible] John? 

[Unintelligible] if

the White House staff gets called 

before the Grand Jury and questioned. 

Dean. The prosecution will [unintelligible] needed somebody to wash 

or, or the like. They may or may not 

want to hear, and—by the way,

I would, I would bounce that one off 

of Henry, uh—

President. Yeah, Ehrlichman and 

Haldeman and Magruder.

Dean. It is, it has been ? Or—

President. We can always find 

reasons.

Dean. And Hu nt’s.

President. [Unintelligible] oh, my 

God, we’ve got to leave [unintelligible] 

Ehrlichman and Haldeman predict, thank 

God [unintelligible] world. They were 

on to p; they’re shot down.

Dean. That’s right. [Unintelligible]. 

The other thing that always worried me 

is not getting shot down, but not 

giving out enough, and starting a, 

a chain going that we didn’t want,

D I can’t foresee what we 

would want to say about 

any investigation—

P “You see I make my own”

How about trying that ?

“Let the White House Staff (inaudible)’
APRIL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 P.M . 59

becaus e we di dn ’t give en ough. U h, 

wou ld, uh— [cou ghs ] [Unin tellig ibl e] 

un fortu na tely, the source of the 

problem , and i t’s just, i t’s mind 

boggling bu t you th in k abo ut it, 

uh —

P resident. An d—

Dean. He di dn ’t care—

P resident. Al l across [unin telligible] 

Dean. That ’s righ t. L ord knows. Lo rd 

knows [un intelligible ]

P resident. And af te r he did n’t 

tu rn i t off—

Dean. An d then we bailed him out, 

and th at’s why we have a problem. 

P resident. [U ninte lligib le] and 

then you sa id t he whole Wh ite Hou se 

at least, uh, up to you, and E hrlic hm an , 

Ha lde ma n af te r regretfully deali ng 

with t he fact. W e’ve ju st got to keep 

the thi ng from g oin g u pstai rs, to 

Mitehell, I mean, yo ur conv ersatio n 

with Magrud er—

Dean. T hat ’s rig ht.

P resident. Th e fact tha t, uh, y ou’re 

supp osed to su pp ort him —everybody— 

Dean. Uh huh .

P resident, and the refore M itch ell 

and [un intell igi ble ]

Dean. Oh, M itch ell,

Mitchell was m aking heavy comments 

about, yo u know, i f H unt an d Liddy 

blow, th e W hite H ouse will h ave 

a b igg er problem tha n he w ill, s ort 

of thing s.

P resident. Ye ah .

Dean. W ha tev er they had done over 

here wou ld be quite em barra ssing 

du ring the ele ction, also.

P resident. Yeah.

Dean. And I sup pose th ere’s some 

tr uth in t ha t. No h ar d facts. J ust 

[unin telligible ] El lsb erg’s office, 

and things like t ha t.

P resident. [U ninte lligib le] th at 

would n’t have been very good.

Dean. You know, uh, you know, 

poor B ud K rogh , uh , is j ust 

miserab le, know ing what he knows. 

P resident. Me aning E llsberg?

D Unfor tuna tely it doesn’t solve ;

your p roblem. Mine

bothe r me b ut (un int ell igi ble )

Mitch ell was ma kin g heavy comments 

th at Li dd y a nd H un t will m ake hea vier 

problems for th e W hit e H ouse 

th an he will, (un int ell igi ble )

D Po or Bud K rog h is so 

miserab le. K nowing wha t he knows— 

P Need any help with him ?
60 APRIL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 P.M .

Dean. Yeah, he’s—

President. Yeah, well [unintelligible] 

Dean. Hopefully not.

There’s no reason it should be.

The only evidence that they have 

which they must—Tha t’s one of 

the reasons T have argued against 

a special prosecutor. The special 

prosecutor is going to run across 

evidence that’s screwy. [Unintelligible] that picture, th at picture 

in front of the doctor’s office. 

[Unintelligible] can’t get into that. 

President. This is not their 

ca— that they’re—

Dean. That’s not their case.

It just got forced on them.

President. That’s right.

Dean. When I was first, you know, 

first talking, uh, with regard to 

[unintelligible]

President. [Unintelligible]

Dean, they wanted to just, 

just, just the original time 

run these guys through the Grand 

Jury, with immunity, and see what 

came out.

President. [Unintelligible]

Dean. Uh, let us fight our 

battle with the Senate.

President. [Unintelligible]

Dean. Absolutely.

President. We’ve been through 

this particular [unintelligible]

Dean. They pulled it out inch by 

inch, uh, and it’ll just, uh, it’ll 

bring you down with it in this 

[unintelligible] committee.

President. Well, it hurts, as you 

say.

Dean. [Unintelligible]

President. It won’t pull us down. 

[Unintelligible]. We can wait and 

handle it in the [unintelligible] 

court.

Dean. We never—

President. [Unintelligible] 

virtually nine months. [Unintelligible]

D There is no reason tha t he should be. 

The only evidence that they have 

(inaudible)

D It just got forced on him.

When I was first 

talking to him—

“Run these guys through the Grand 

Ju ry—”
APRIL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 P. M . 61

Dean. Dean couldn’t get there with 

the facts.

President. [Unintelligible] they’ll 

ask.

Dean. I didn’t have the power to 

compel Mitchell or Magruder to tell 

me what had happened. I just surmised 

what had happened.

President. The [unintelligible] 

Dean. I ’ve been, uh, 

to be very honest,

I ’ve talked about it around here 

before I got to see you 

for many, many months. Uh, I said 

you know, I said the containment 

theory is not working anymore so 

you might as well forget it. 

President. Right. That’s what 

you came in to see me? Fine.

Dean. Fine. It works.

Finally, I started coming in to 

see you and that’s when we started 

gettin g action.

President. I have no right 

[unintelligible]

Dean. Then I was told by all of 

those after joining this, th at’d 

be talking surrender. I ’m not 

talking surrender.

I’m talking realistically. [Unintelligible] investigation going.

They’ve got subpoena power, immunity 

power, and they’re going to break 

somebody up there, just as sure—

And, uh, I ’ve always said tha t 

it’s a domino situation—

One, one goes—and tha t’s 

exactly what’s happened here,

Mr. President.

President. The poor guys.

Dean. The poor men and the 

[unintelligible] all the way around. 

President. Secretaries, [unintelligible]

Dean. That’s right.

President and Dean. [Unintelligible] 

Dean. How do you 

want to handle i t: Ehrlichman, 

Haldeman, and Dean ?

To be very honest with you,

I have talked about it around here

before I got in to see

for many, many months. Then I thought

I could not let it interfere with

my work anymore so I thought

I might as well forget it.

P That’s right. That’s when 

you came in to see me.

D Finally, tha t is when I came in to

see you and

get some answers.

D Now, they have their full 

investigation going— 

with subpoena power, investigative 

power, et cetera.

It is all like a set of dominoes 

if one goes they will all go.

P Secretaries, et cetera

D I don’t know’ (unintelligible) They 

are going to handle Ehrlichman and 

Haldeman.
62 APR IL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 P.M .

P resident. T hat’s a good question. 

[U nin tel lig ibl e] the bigges t p ar t 

of th at question is when, under 

the circu mstances—it’s, uh—

Dean. Here’s th e argume nt I, I ’ve 

been m ean ing to te ll y ou: F irst of 

all, th ere is, th ere’s, the re is 

po ten tia l—T here are prima facie 

situatio ns righ t now th at are very 

difficult in, uh, to prove in 

con text that —been mad e aw are of.

Uh, does th at thereb y mak e it 

necessary fo r you to mak e a jud gm ent 

th at those people should leave the 

staff un til their, th eir nam e is 

clea red ?

P resident. I t makes it necessary 

for me to relieve the m of any 

du ty i f t his peaks.

Dean. Tha t’s right.

President. Wh ich I have done.

It makes it necessary fo r me to 

[un int ell igi ble ] Ha lde ma n t ur n it 

down, which I end up.

Dean. Bu t th at —I don’t know— 

P resident. I ’m ha pp y to discuss it 

with him, bu t whethe r, you jus t say 

let’s go all out a nd tromp the ir 

ass. I do not—

Dean. T hat ’s th e tougher q uestion, 

because one, that’s pu tti ng you in 

the position of being the, the judge 

and tr ie r o f th e facts.

P resident. Before—

Dean. Before all the facts are 

in, necessa rily.

P resident. T hat ’s re ally my problem 

on t ha t. I mean, I —so th is fellow 

says tha t, an d th is fellow says th at 

—th at’s th e th in g th at concerns me. 

Dean. We ll, maybe th at’s the way 

this o ug ht to be handled , pub licly.

Say, “ I have certa in inf orma tio n 

about—y ou know’, allega tions ha ve 

been m ade abo ut p ersons, some pub licly 

—some have n ot become pub lic yet— 

bu t I am n ot in a position where I 

can m ake any ”

P resident. Yeah. Yeah.

Th ere is a poten tial pr im a facie 

situatio n righ t now (in audib le)

which the reb y m akes it

necessary fo r you to mak e a jud gm ent

th at those peop le should leave the

staff.

P Make it necessary 

fo r me to relieve them fro m a ny 

du tie s a t this state .

I) T hat ’s rig ht.

P I don’t have to discuss it 

wi th him —bu t j us t say,

“Y ou are all ou t”

D Tha t is a toug her question 

because one th at is p ut ting you in 

the position of b eing the judg e 

of the en tire facts

before all th e facts are 

in necessarily.

P Tha t is rea lly m y problem in

a nu tshell. S o those fellows

say t ha t—t his fellow says t hat —

D May be th at is the way 

th is oug ht to be hand led . Yo u 

say, “I have hea rd inform ati on 

alx mt allegat ion s

about (un audib le) some public ly 

and some have not become pub lic ye t. 

I am n ot in a position to
APRIL 1 6 , 1 9 7 3 A. M . 63

Dean, “judgments, because all the 

facts aren’t in yet.”

President. But you really think, 

John, don’t you, that, ugh, you [ unintelligible] in the meantime—

Dean. Okay.

President. Your statement, this 

statement is terribly important.

And, then frankly, something 

very shortly beforehand 

[unintelligible]. Right?

Dean. Right.

President. I ’ll talk to you on 

Thursday. [Unintelligible]. Thank 

you.

Dean. Yes, sir.

President. Would you say tha t you 

[unintelligible] move, uh [unintelligible] in this area ?

Dean. Right.

President. And, uh [unintelligible].

judge because all the 

facts are not in yet (inaudible) ? 

P (Inaudible) But you agree, 

John , don’t you th at

the statement is fair to everybody ? 

And frankly—(Balance inaudible 

—door closes.)

o