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H E A R I N G

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

INT ERIOR AND INSULA R APEAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENA TE

EIGH TY -NINTH CONGRESS 

FIR ST SESSION 

ON

TH E NOM INATION OF JO HN A. CARVER, JR., OF IDA HO, 

TO BE UNDER SEC RETARY OF THE IN TE RI OR

<

JAN UARY 12, 1965

Print ed fo r th e use o f the 

Com mittee on In te ri or and

41-G95

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1965
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CO MMIT TE E ON IN T ER IO R AN D IN SU LAR A FFA IR S

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington, Chair ma n

CLINTON P. ANDERSON, New Mexico

ALAN BIBLE, Nevada

FRANK CHURCH, Idaho

ERNEST GRUENING, Alaska

FRANK E. MOSS, Utah

QUENTIN N. BURDICK, North Dakota

CARL HAYDEN, Arizona

GEORGE MCGOVERN, South Dakota

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

LEE METCALF, Montana

J erry T. Vbrkler, Sta ff D ir ecto r

Stewart F ren ch, C hie f Cou ns el

THOMAS H. KUCHEL, California

GORDON ALLOTT, Colorado

LEN B. JORDAN, Idaho

MILWARD L. SIMPSON, Wyoming

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona

n
C O N T E N T S

STATEMENTS

Page Carver, John A., Jr., nominee for Under Secretary of the Interior_______

Church, Hon. Frank, a U.S. Senator from the State of Idaho__________

Jordan, Hon. Len B., a U.S. Senator from the State of Idaho__________

Morse, Hon. Wayne, a U.S. Senator from the State of Oregon_________ 2

MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION

Biological sketch______________________________________________

Editorials:

Denver Po st______________________________________________

Grand Junction (Colo.-

) Sentinel______________________________

Idaho State Journal________________________________________

Idaho Statesm an__________________________________________ 5f

The Intermountain, Pocatello, Idaho__________________________

Lewiston (Idaho) Morning Tribune___________________________

Salt Lake Tribune_________________________________________

Spokane (Wash.) Spokesman-Review__________________________

Twin Falls (Idaho) Times-News_____________________________ _

® M cn C5 cn rfk C l O O O tO O O

in

NOMINAT ION OF JOHN A. CARVER, JR . (O F IDAH O), TO 

BE UNDER SEC RET ARY OF TH E IN TE RIOR

TUESD A Y , JA N U A R Y 12, 19 65

U .S . S enate,

C ommit te e on I nt er ior an d I ns ul ar A ff air s,

IFash ing ton , D.G.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:10 a.m., in room 3110, 

New Senate Office Building, Senator Henry M. Jackson (chairman) 

presiding.

Present: Senators Jackson, Anderson, Bible, Church, Gruening, 

Moss, Burdick, Hayden, Metcalf, Kucliel, Jord an, Simpson.

Also present: Jer ry T. Verkler, staff director; Stewart French, 

chief counsel; James H. Gamble and Roy M. Wliitacre, professional 

staff members.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

The Chair has been informed and was not advised previously, th at 

the Republicans are having a caucus this morning and the Republican 

members will not be available until 11. Therefore, if there is no objection the committee will stand in recess until 11 o’clock in order that 

the Republican members may be present.

(Recess until 11 a.m.)

The CHAii^iA?.. The committee will come to order.

This is an open hearing on the nomination of J ohn A. Carver, Jr., 

of Idaho, to be Under Secretary of the Interior. All of the members 

of this committee without exception know Mr. Carver and have worked 

with him during the past 4 years during which time he served as 

Assistant Secretary of the In terior for Public Land Management.

At this point in the record I would like to include a biographical 

sketch of Mr. Carver. It will be printed in full.

(The biographical sketch referred to follows:)

J ohn A. Carver, J r., Assistant Secretary for Public Land Management, 

Department of tiie I nterior

John A. Carver, Jr. of Boise, Idaho, Assistant Secretary of the Interio r since 

Janu ary 30, 1961, in that capacity has supervised the activities of the Bureau 

of Land Management, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the National Park Service, 

the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation, the Office of Territories, and the Alaska 

Railroad.

lie was adm inistrative assis tan t to Senator Fra nk Church of Idah o from 

Janu ary 1957 until appointed Assistant Secre tary. In 1947-48 he served as 

ass istant atto rne y general of Idaho, and from 1948-57 he was in private law 

practice in Boise. He also has had considerable experience as a career Federal 

Civil Service personnel executive from 1940-47, with the National Roster of 

Scientific and Specialized Personnel and the Civilian Personnel Division, Office 

of the Secretary of War where he directed field a ctivities successively in Ogden, 

Utah, Baltimore, Md., and New York City.

1
2 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Mr. Carver was born in Preston, Idaho, April 24,1918. He h as an A.B. degree 

from Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (1939) and an LL.B. degree from 

Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. (1947).

Inducted into the milita ry in May 1943, he was later commissioned in the U.S. 

Air Force, and served as a civilian personnel officer of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey in England and Japan.

Mr. Ca rver is a member of the bar in Idah o and the District of Columbia ; is a 

member of the American Bar and Federal Bar Associations. He is a member 

of the National Advisory Committee, Center for Advanced Study in Organization 

Science, Unive rsity of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.

Mr. Carver married Ruth O’Connor of Seattle, Wash, in Jun e 1942. They have 

three ch ild ren: John A. Il l, 19, studen t at the University of Wisconsin; Craig 

Roger, 16; and Candace Elaine, 13. The family lives at 6605 16th Street North, 

Arlington, Va.

The Chairm an. The Ch air would like to sta te th at he has ha d the 

privilege of knowing Mr. Ca rver not only du ring this 4-y ear period 

bu t some time prior thereto. li e has disch arg ed his dut ies an d r esp onsibi lities as As sis tan t Secre tary in a manner in k eep ing with t hat h igh 

office. The Ch air is delighte d to move the nomination and to have 

him here t his mo rnin g.

I think it would be ap pr op riate if the senior Se na tor fro m Id ah o 

would introd uce M r. Ca rver so th at he may come forw ard .

STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK CHURCH, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF IDAHO

Se nator Church. Th an k you very much, Mr. Chairma n.

I am very privilege d to introd uce Mr. Carve r. I would like to 

mak e all my rem ark s directly from the he art and no t refe r at all to 

my prep ared rem ark s this mo rning bu t Jo hn worked so faith fully 

fo r me fo r 4 y ears in the Senate that. I thou ght, he sho uld be at least 

en titled to a page and a h alf of composition. [Lau gh ter .]

I wou ld like to rea d th at i nto th e record as well as selected excerpts 

from some edito ria ls fro m West ern new spa per s th at have commented 

on th e P reside nt’s appointme nt.

So to th at end, Mr. Ch airma n, let me say th at I am more than 

pro ud to end orse John A. Ca rver, Jr. , to be Un de r Secre tar y of 

Inter ior . li e has been a rem ark ably dilig en t and ad ep t public servant, and his many tal ents have been demo nst rated in abu nda nce 

since he came to Wa shington as my admi nis tra tiv e ass istant in 1957.

Before th at he was a very successfu l law yer in Boise, Idaho, and 

a person whose friendship I came to cherish and I might say th at 

despite the an tagonism s th at sometimes deve lop bet ween th e legis lative 

and executive bra nch, since he has gon e down, we hav e ma nag ed to 

keep t h at fri en dship in good repair .

As my ad minist rativ e ass istant, Mr. Ca rver quickly demo nstrated 

th at he ha d the intui tio n to locate th e ju gu la r vein of a difficult pro blem ; th at he could organize an office staff and ins pir e it to work 

efficiently and ha rd ; and pe rhap s most of all, th at he was ded icated 

to the public welfare, and evalu ate d legisla tive and ad ministrativ e 

fun ctions wi thin th at framework.

W ith his advent to an As sis tan t Secre tar yship at In te rior in 1961, 

Mr. Ca rver beg an the sup ervisio n of the work of ha lf of dozen top 

Gover nment agencies, and I firm ly believe these have adv anced considerably in th ei r effectiveness un de r his leader ship and admi nis tra -
INTERIOR NOMINATION 3

tion. Mr. Carver kept an “open door” policy in liis office, and people 

who came to see him and discuss their problems found a willing 

listener, and an official ready to move adroitly and effectively against 

redtape.

Mr. Carver also took to the road, not only to inform the public 

of interior functions and programs, but to acquaint himself at the 

grassroots level with the problems of the rancher, the Indian on 

the reservation, the lumberman, the mine operator, and all others 

whose livelihood had a dependency on the Federal lands under his 

jurisdiction. I believe tha t he has made the agencies under his 

guidance more responsive to the public interest, more pliable in 

meeting the needs of today, and more alert to the requirements of 

the future.

Mr. Chairman, I think we have in John A. Carver, Jr. , tha t rare 

public servant who combines high honor, fine intelligence, and great 

capability for the administration of the laws we make here in the Congress. I certainly recommend him without reservation for the Under 

Secretaryship of the Interior.

Mr. Chairman, a number of editorials have been published in western newspapers. I will not take the committee’s time to read them 

in full into the record but I should like to select an excerpt or two from 

some of these as representative of the reaction of the great newspapers 

of the West to this nomination.

The Chairman. Without objection, they will be included in the 

record.

(The editorials referred to follow:)

[F ro m th e Lew iston (I dah o) M or ning Tribu ne , Dec. 30, 1964]

* * * A Boise attorney before his lates t move to Washington, D.C., Carver is 

thoroughly famili ar with the intricacies of Federal Government. He began as a 

messenger for a Senate committee in 1936. He served in various civilian and 

militar y assignments for the National Government before he joined the staff of 

Gov. Robert E. Smylie, then Idaho’s attor ney general, in 1947. He practiced law 

at Boise from 1948 to 1957, then returned to Washington as administrative assista nt to Senator Frank Church. There he was recognized as one of the ablest 

administrative assistants in the Senate, and Udall quickly selected him for a key 

Inte rior Department role afte r Udall’s appointment as Secretary.

As Assistan t Secretary in charge of public lands, Carver has encountered 

some of the most complicated and controversial problems in domestic government. He has not evaded these problems, nor has he compromised the administrat ion ’s basic principles of land management. Yet, he has won not merely the 

respect but the outspoken admiration of most of the industries which largely depend upon the use of public lands. And he has accomplished this without 

alienating the “liberals” whose ideas of public land management frequently 

clash with those who depend upon public land use for their income.

The secret of this remarkable record seems to be th at Carver understands his 

field thoroughly and has the intelligence and courage to seek bold new solutions 

for vexing, old problems.

Lumbermen, mine operators, and cattlemen, for example, tend to froth at 

complex, detailed restrictions and regulations which they regard as obsolete 

and punitive. Confronted with such criticism, the average burea ucrat is likely 

to dismiss the objectors as greatly intere sts seeking to despoil the public lands. 

The bureaucrat is inclined to “go by the book” in judging complaints, fearful 

tha t concessions might undermine fundamental principles of conservation and 

mindful tha t “the book” is a maze of legislation and regulations which comfounds even the experts in individual agencies.

Carver has probed into a multitude of such problems seeking not merely to 

understand the accumulated rules but also to determine how the underlying 

philosophy behind the rules can be bette r served by changes and adaptation s.
4 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Where a regulation serves no purpose except to frus tra te land users and custodians alike he has sought to eliminate it. Where the laws have created 

an adm inistra tive jungle, he has worked closely with Congress, the adminis tration and user intere sts to modernize them. He is only one of many, of course, 

who is pushing for a thorough revision of the Nation’s public land laws to crea te 

a more workable pattern based upon the principles of conservation and multiple 

use. However, his efforts in this direction have been particu larly effective because he often speaks clearly and candidly for the adm inistration about such 

questions—to Congress, to the users, and to his subordinates in Government.

The resu lt has been that the same Interior Departm ent adm inistration which 

has given the gre atest emphasis in recen t history to the preserva tion and protection of key public lands also has led the way to more sensible use of other 

public lands by commercial interests. Udall prim arily has emphasized conservation and protection of scenic, historic, and wilderness areas, though he also 

thoroughly und erstands the West’s dependence upon a public land economy. 

Carv er has emphasized the other side of the coin—the wise and pru den t use of 

public lands with a minimum of crippling regulations.

This is not to suggest that Udall and his assis tan t have been pu rsuing opposite 

goals. This is not the case at all. Udall may come to rank as the gre atest conservationist iu Government in several decades, but this does not mean that he 

wan ts to “lock up” all public lands for futur e generations. Carver has esta blished an enviable reputation among user interests as a man who knows the ir 

problems and will help to solve them—but this does not mean th at he w ants to log 

off the national p arks or eliminate wilderness areas. The public lands of America 

are infinitely varied. Their proper use is a tremendously complex matter. 

Udall and his new No. 1 ass ista nt are simply conc entrating on sep ara te aspects 

of the same vast problem, and together they are achieving memorable results 

* * *—B.J.

[From the Grand Junction (Colo.) Sentinel, Dec. 6, 1964]

We sincerely hope t ha t Assistant Inter ior Secre tary John A. C arver will receive 

the appointment as Under Secretary of the Interior. If he does, it will be the 

biggest break the West has had for a long, long time.

John Carver is the best qualified of the men in the Departm ent to take over 

the position. He is, as many local people will remember, the Int erior representative who visited Grand Junc tion for the dedication of th e new center at Colorado 

Monument.

This is not the only spot he has visited. Few of the Under Secretaries of the 

Department take so much inte rest in the areas they control. He is one of the 

few to take numerous field trips to lear n what actu ally goes on in the field and 

to become acquainted with the problems in various sections of the country. He 

does it quietly and with out fanfare , but thoroughly and intelligently.

Carver’s appointment could be a major brea k for development in much of the 

West and par ticula rly for the development of the oil shale industry.

Carv er is a westerner and a practic al operator. This is what is badly needed 

in a top position of the D epartmen t of Interior.

[From the Twin Falls (Idaho) Times-News, Dec. 2, 1964]

* ♦ * He has been in demand as a speaker arou nd the Nation and some users 

of the public domain have declared that Mr. Carver has found the delicate balance necessary when dealing with private range use while still keeping the Nation’s general welfare in mind. No one has accused him of capricious, arbit rary 

actio n tha t is so common when dealing with the ordinary type of burea ucr at * * *.

[From the Spokesman-Review, Spokane, Wash., Dec. 30, 1964]

Presiden t John son’s selection of John A. Carver, Jr., for the position of Under 

Secretary of the Interior should be acceptable throughout the Western States, 

where the activities of this Departm ent of the Federal Government are important to the economy of the area.
INTERIOR NOMINATION h

Mr. Carver’s experience as an A ssistant Secre tary in the Dep artm ent for almost 

4 years has shown him to be a sincere and knowledgeable custodian of the responsibilities assigned to th at office. For the last few months the position of 

Under Secretary has been vacant, and the recent appointment has been overdue.

Politic al considerations are, of course, a ma jor factor in a job such as this one. 

The Carver appointment must be approved by the U.S. Senate, but there should 

be little difficulty on that score.

Mr. C arve r has displayed an understand able and energetic att itu de toward the 

problems of the West. While his ideology must necessarily reflect the convictions of his supe riors in the Federal Government, his concern for various points 

of view in various controversial ma tters has marked him as a reasonable 

adm inistrator.

[From the Idaho Statesman , Boise, Dee. 29, 1964]

* * * He demonstrated a gre at capacity in performing adm inistrative duties 

of Government, no matter how’ complex they may be. He seldom takes a fling 

into orbit, settling on cloud 9 for a too-lofty view. He keeps his feet on the 

ground, can talk the language of the cattleman, the sheepherder, the lumberjack, 

the wilderness advocate, th e park vendor, the Indian chief.

His willingness to listen in a rough and tumble debate marks him as a keen 

genius expressing the desire to und erstand and assist—not dominated by unreasonable bu reaucratic directive.

Mr. Carver will preside well in his new position. There is never doubt as to 

the sincerity in purpose which this 46-year-old fo rmer Boisean evokes * * *.

[From The Intermountain, Pocatello, Idaho, Dec. 10, 1964]

* * * Mr. Carver has proven capabilities as an adm inistrator, and a lifelong 

acqu aintance with the public land economy of this region. We wish him well in 

his new post, and we expect a lot from him—the so rt of thing t ha t may yet force 

an admission from a public lands use organization th at progress has been made.

Thus fa r Mr. Carver’s official concern for the public’s stake in its own public 

domain, which is primary, has not caused him to forget tha t vir tually every resident of the inlan d West feels some direct effect, whether economic or aesth etic, 

from any significant policy change in the Inter ior Departm ent * ♦ *.

[From the Denver Post, Jan. 3, 1965]

The promotion of John A. Carver, Jr., to the job of Under Secretary of the 

De[>artment of Interior is good news for the Rocky Mountain region. As 

Stewart Udall’s assista nt, Carv er will be able to bring his solid Western background to bear on th e problems of the West.

A native of Idaho, a graduate of Brigham Young University and a former 

staff member of the office of Senator Frank Church, Democrat, of Idaho, Carver 

has had 2 years as Under Secretary of Inter ior in charge of public lands. He 

has handled the job with tac t and has gained the confidence of resource-minded 

westerners.

Coloradans, particu larly, are interested in Inter ior policy. If and how the 

Sta te’s oil shale is developed depends to a grea t extent on policies of the Interior 

Department. Carver has shown intere st in this subject and has become expert 

in its details. For th is reason alone we would be glad for Carver’s advancement. 

In general, however, his fam ilia rity with all the West’s problems is what makes 

his promotion welcome.

[From the Idaho State Journal, Pocatello, Dec. 28, 1964]

* * * Carver is an advocate of new approaches to public land management, 

and as such is interested in the activities of the Public Land Law Review Commission created by the last Congress. Carv er was at one time considered for 

chairman of th at body. He believes an intensive review of the public lands is 

long overdue.
6 INTERIOR NOMINATION

The new No. 2 man in the Depa rtment is generally well versed and interested 

in areas that touch close to home. Carver’s special inte rests and talents mesh 

with the special interests and problems of Idah o and Western States like Idaho.

But there is more good news to the appo intment than having the right man 

in the right place. Carver is also an extremely competent adm inistrator.

He iirst showed his talent for Government and adm inistration as chief assistant to Idaho Senator Fra nk Church, serving in th at position from 1957 to 1961. 

He was known as a demanding man to work for, expecting and getting the most 

out of the Senator’s staff. His repu tation has been similar as Assistant Secretary 

since 1961. In fact, his willingness to put in long hours on the job partly explains his appointment by a man who also believes in extra effort and extra 

hours. * * *

Carver is a man known for succeeding in his assignm ents. His position will 

give him more of a chance to demonstrate his ability. He is still a young man, 

and Idahoans and the Nation are bound to hear a lot more of John Carver in 

the years to come.

[From the Ida ho State sm an, Boise, Nov. 29, 1964]

* * * He has shown attentiveness to the needs of the many users of Federal 

domain, has not ruled strictly on a basis of Washington planners, but often took 

to the “grassroots” to gain firsthand knowledge of pressing problems. From 

his vantage point in the country, discussing the issues with the miner, the 

stockman, the sheepherder, the Indian, outdoor enthu siast and conservationist, 

Mr. Carver made decisions compatible with both Federal policy and provincial 

needs.

He has worked well w ith Members of Congress, particularly those in the West, 

lie api>ears to want to be in concert with the ir constituents in issuing policy 

which does not inter rupt the economy of a given area .

He recognizes the requests of conservationists, und erstands the demands of 

wildlifers, the hunter, the fisherman. But he has shown the capacity to fit the 

needs of all users into a Federal policy. At the same time, he is not cheating 

the public, but guarding trea sured resoures of Idah o and other Western States 

from foolish exploitation and rapid dete riora tion.

Next year the new Public Land Law Review Commission will begin a study of 

archaic statutes now on the Federal books. Actually, Mr. Carver has been reported by some sources to be in line for the chairmanship of the imp orta nt body, 

composed of lawmakers, a dministration officials, and laymen.

But his taking office as Under Secretary of the Inter ior should not preclude 

him from serving as Chairman of the Public Land Law Review Commission, 

if the members of th is organization favor him for t ha t post * * ♦.

[From the Sa lt Lake (U tah) Tribun e, Nov. 29, 1964]

* * * In addition to the Park Service, Mr. Carv er has had under his jurisdiction the Bureau of Land Management and Bureau of Indian Affairs, also highly 

imp orta nt to th e in term ountain West. Sound a dministration entails unde rstand ­

ing the region and good communications with the States involved, as well as 

with Congress.

A native of Pre ston, Idaho, onetime resident of Pocatello, gradua te of B righam 

Young University, and form er ass ista nt atto rne y general of Idaho, Mr. Carver 

knows intim ately problems of the intermo untain West. He has recognized 

diverse intere sts of land users and helped balance their needs with the overall 

public good * * ♦.

Considerable progress in public lands management has taken place during 

Carver’s tenure in Inter ior under Secretary Ste wart Udall. It seems natur al, 

therefore, that he should move up from No. 3 post to Under Secretary, where he 

will be more partic ularly involved with problems of water and power development.

Senator Church. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The first 

I would refer to is from the Lewiston Morning Tribune in Lewiston, 

Idaho, which I think is the only Democratic paper tha t I will quote
INTERIOR NOMINATION 7

from. The Republican papers have been so laudatory that I have 

had to review this whole question. [Laughter.]

It has made the nominee somewhat suspect. [Laughter.] But I 

have overcome my doubt in his favor. So first of all, let us quote 

from the Lewiston Morning Tribune which spoke up in favor of the 

nominee and in the editorial these words are wri tten:

As A ssis tant Secre tary in char ge of public lands, Carv er has e ncountered some 

of the most complicated and controversial problems in domestic government. 

He has not evaded these problems, nor has he compromised the adm ini str ati on ’s 

basic princ iples of land management. Yet, he has won not merely the respect 

but the outspoken adm iration of most of the industr ies which largely depend 

upon the use of public lands. And he has accomplished this withou t alienati ng 

the “libe rals ” whose ideas of public land manag ement freq uently clash with 

those who depend upon public lan d use fo r t hei r income.

The secret of this rema rkab le record seems to be th at Carv er und erstands his 

field thoroughly and has the intelligence and courage to seek bold new solutions 

for vexing, old problems.

From the Grand Junction (Colo.) Sentinel, I re ad :

This is not the only spot he has visited. Few of the Under Secreta ries of 

the Dep artm ent take so much intere st in the are as they control. He is one of 

the few to take numero us field trips to lea rn what actu ally goes on in the field 

and to become ac quain ted with the problems in various sections of the country. 

He does it quietly and withou t fan far e, but thoroughly and intelligently.

Carver’s appo intment could be a ma jor brea k for development in much of the 

West and particular ly for the developm ent of the oil shale indu stry .

Carv er is a wes tern er and a pra ctic al operator. This is what is badly needed 

in a top position of the Dep artm ent of the Int erior.

From the Twin Falls (Idaho) News:

He has been in demand as a speaker arou nd the Nation and some user s of 

the public domain have declared th at Mr. Carv er has found the delic ate balance 

necessary when dealin g with private rang e use while still keeping the Nati on’s 

gene ral wel fare in mind. No one has accused him of capricious, ar bi tra ry action 

that is so common when dealin g with the ord ina ry type of bureaucrat.

From the Spokesman-Review in Spokane. I checked back against 

this and it is in fact, Mr. Chairman, from the Spokesman-Review. 

[Laughter.]

Mr. Ca rver h as displayed an und erstandab le and energe tic att itu de tow ard the 

problems of the West. While his ideology must neces sarily reflect the convictions of his supe riors in the Federal Government, his concern for vari ous points 

of view in various controvers ial ma tters has mark ed him as a reasonab le admin ­

istrator.

From the Idaho Statesman in Boise, Idaho :

He dem onst rated a gre at capa city in perfo rming adm inistrative duti es of 

Government, no m att er how complex they may be. He seldom tak es a fling into 

orbit, settlin g on cloud 9 for a too-lofty view. He keeps his fee t on the ground, 

can talk the language of the catt lem an, the sheep herde r, the lumberjack, the 

wilde rness advocate, the p ark vendor, th e Ind ian chief.

From the Denver Post, Colo^tdo:

Carv er has had 2 year s as Under Secreta ry of Inter ior in char ge of public 

lands. He has hand led the job with tac t and has gained the confidence of resource-minded we stern ers.

Coloradans, par ticu larly, are inte rested in Inter ior policy. If and how the 

Sta te’s oil shale is developed depends to a gre at ext ent on policies of the Int eri or 

Depa rtme nt. Car ver has shown int ere st in thi s subj ect and has become expert 

in its deta ils. For this reaso n alone we would be glad for Carve r’s adva ncement. In general, however, his fam iliari ty with all the Wes t’s problems is what 

makes his promotion welcome.
8 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Finally from the Idaho State Journal, Pocatello, Idaho:

Carv er is a man known for succeeding in his assignm ents. His position will 

give him more of a chance to demonstrate his ability. He is still a young man. 

and Idahoans and the Nation are bound to hear a lot more of John Carv er in 

the years to come.

I think, Mr. Chairman, this is a remarkable expression of affirmative 

reaction to this appointment from major newspapers of the Western 

States, and I think that the record speaks for itself. I am very proud 

to know John Carver and to introduce him to the committee although 

he needs no introduction here, and I commend him most heartily for 

confirmation.

The Chairman. I think Senator Jord an would like to join in that 

introduction, and I will call on Senator Jordan.

STATEMENT OF HON. LEN B. JORDAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF IDAHO

Senator J ordan. Mr. Chairman, indeed I would like to join my colleague, Senator Church, in endorsing John Carver for the position as 

Under Secretary of the Interior. It has been my privilege to know 

John Carver for many years dating back to the time shortly a fter the 

war in the late 1940’s when he was assistant attorney general of Idaho. 

I have known his family. He does come from a fine Idaho family, 

several of whom have served and some who are now serving in important positions of public trust. I have watched his progress as a 

practicing attorney in the State of Idaho and administrative assistant 

to Senator Church, and more recently as Assistant Secretary of the 

Interior. He has appeared before this committee many times and has 

shared the platform with me many times in the West and in my own 

State—a man who gets around in the field while he is on the job. I 

might say that in my opinion he is a man of great competence and high 

integrity, knowledgeable in the land and water resources, and he has 

that, innate fairness that commands the respect of users of the public 

lands and public domain as well as the theorists, the administrators, 

the wildlifers, and all. He strikes a balance of fairness tha t is recognized and applauded by all users and interested people, conservationists and all.

So it is with a g reat deal of pleasure that I add my support and my 

recommendation to this committee that they confirm the appointment 

of John A. Carver as Under Secretary.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Jordan.

Secretary Carver, we want to extend you a warm welcome. We believe you have a statement.

STATEMENT OF JOHN A. CARVER, «£R.. NOMINEE TO BE UNDER 

SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

Air. Carver. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of 

the committee, my own Senators, Senator Church and Senator Jo rdan. The confirmation process is a vital link in the chain of constitutional checks and balances. A nominee subject to it, at least this 

nominee, comes to the hearing grateful for the confidence reflected in 

the nomination, and sensible of the responsibilities invrlved. includ-
INTERIOR NOMINATION 9

ing the imme dia te responsi bility to the Senate as the con firm ing 

authority .

He arings such as this elicit fac ts as to basic qualific atio ns to pe rfo rm 

the du ties of the designated office, an d expose the nom inee to inqu iry as 

to his pe rsonal views on th e key policy issues invo lved in th e ex ercis e of 

those duties.

Th is com mittee and the De pa rtm en t of the In te rior are concerned 

with (he same subject matter, and a close degree of coo peratio n is 

necessary. How well the Pr es id en t’s ap pointees work with the Congress and the c omm ittee is im po rta nt to both the ad minist ratio n and 

the Congress.

There is lit tle my words can add to the knowledge the committee 

alr eady ha s on all these matters , based on my 4 years ’ service as As ­

sis tant Se cre tar y and frequent appeara nces before the com mittee and 

con tact wi th its members. Th e record speaks lou der th an an ything 

I might say here.

I think I ap pe ar here today som ewh at b etter qualified f or the present 

nominat ion th an was the case 4 years ago, when the com mittee con ­

side red me fo r the post of As sis tan t Secre tary. I hav e had, in the 

interim, a 4-y ear inte nsive edu cation —und er the tutelage of un de rsta nd ing superiors, willin g and able sub ord ina tes, coopera tive colleagues, and no t l eas t im po rta nt, wise and pa tri otic Membe rs of Congres s in both Chambers and both sides of the aisle. I t wou ld be impossible to tra verse th at curriculum wi thou t absorbin g a fa irly in timate appreciat ion of the complex rel ati onship th at exists among the 

several resource areas com prehen ded by the In te rior Dep ar tm en t’s 

mission.

It is my intentio n, and I am enthu sia stic abo ut it, to approa ch (he 

un fam ili ar and new sub stantive are as wi th the same diligen ce and 

effort I have tri ed to exert on lan d, pa rk , te rrito rial, and In di an pr ogram s in the recent pa st.

I am g lad th at many of (he thing s in the la nd m anagem ent are a t hat 

I ou tlin ed as objectives in ap pe aring h ere 4 yea rs ago hav e been accom ­

plished. Cr ed it fo r tha t pro gre ss mu st g o to Secre tar y U da ll’s und er ­

sta nd ing counsel and ste adfas t supp ort. Th e pro spe ct of an even 

closer association with the Secre tar y is a majo r source of confidence 

and pleasur e in conte mp lat ing a b road er as sign men t.

Fou r y ears ago, I ind icated I owned no stocks, and ha d no business 

or oth er connections which conflicted wi th my du ty of untramm ele d 

loy alty to my employer, the Un ite d State s of Am erica. That is stil l 

true, and I ag ain affirm it.

Mr. Ch air ma n, I would like to extend my person al th an ks and 

gr atitu de f or the wonde rful sta tem ents m ade on my behalf by Se nator 

Ch urc h an d by Se nator Jo rd an , an d I will be g lad to respond to any 

questions th at the committee members have fo r me.

The Chairm an. Senator And erson.

Senator A nderson. Mr. Ca rver, I am sure we all hav e a very good 

am ount of confidence in you. Th ere are one or two things I might 

want to ask you about. You h ad c harge o f l and, parks, an d th at sort 

of thing. Who administered the firs t ste ps in the w ilderness bill over 

in the De pa rtm en t of In terio r? Was th at not done in yo ur office?

Mr. Carver. We ll, the specific a ssignme nts for figu rin g ou t the first 

steps, of course, were handled in the Se cretary’s office by askin g the
10 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Assistan t to the Sec retary fo r La nd Ut ilizatio n, Mr. La nd str om , to 

make th e pla ns for th e De pa rtm ent’s administ ratio n of it and to make 

a rep ort of the first steps take n. The action, gen era lly sp eak ing , is in 

bureaus which I supervised but not entirely , specifically the Burea u 

of L and M anagem ent and the Pa rk Service.

Senator Anderson. On the 2 0th day of November the De partm ent 

of In te rior issued a release headed “I nt er io r to Beg in Stu die s on a 

New W ilderness Act, Ud all Sa ys.” Then it says :

Millions of acres of nationally owned lands administered by the Department 

of the Interior will be reviewed as critically and as care fully as possible under 

the new Wilderness Act.

Now, as you know , I had some lit tle conn ection with the Wildern ess 

Act and a grea t deal of int ere st in it. Th erefore I na tu ra lly started 

to look at the are as which were to be considered fo r wild erne ss possibility, and as sometimes hap pen s, I looked at my own Sta te. I fou nd 

you had a stu dy pla nned for the Ca rls bad Cav erns Na tio nal Park of 

50,000 acres. Do you rega rd th at as w ilde rness ?

Mr. Carver. No, si r; I do no t.

Senator Anderson. You know the pa rk was given to the Fe deral 

Government by the State of New Mexico.

Mr. Carver. Yes, s ir ; I am aware of t ha t.

Senator Anderson. Why would an ybody surve y t ha t fo r wilderness 

purposes?

Mr. Carver. Well, let me say, Se na tor Anderson , th at I rega rd the 

presen t release in its f orm as unfortu na te.

Senator A nderson. Did I u nd ersta nd you did not hav e a ny thin g to 

do with it then ?

Air. Carver. You understand cor rec tly, I did not. I did not see it 

until your office called the o ther day , bu t I can not duck the responsibility fo r it.

Senator Anderson. I did not get a chance to ask you e arlie r about 

it because I was struck dum b fo r a few days af te r I go t this . 

[L au gh ter.]

Mr. Carver. Th e reason for it I have inquired into since the n, and 

I can say that there is lang uag e in the bill as it passed which affirmatively req uired th at all of the p ar k are as be stu die d for any wilderness 

values which would qualify under the a ct ; in oth er word s, t he re is an 

affirm ative duty to take in, in effect, any pa rk which has wi thin it 

5,000 acres or more which is in a roadless state, bu t th is------

Senator Anderson. Now th at is diff eren t. Does the Carlsbad 

Cav erns National Pa rk have in it 5,000 acres o f a road less state?

Mr. Carver. I do no t know. All I know is th at in a ra th er expansive mood when thi s release was pu t out, they just took the gross 

acreage of all of the pa rks ra th er th an guess whether or no t there 

might be that much wilderness area in th em and j us t tota led up a gross 

figure.

Senator Anderson. That is ju st the point. They took the gross 

acreage and did n ot pay any att entio n to w hat th e law said a t all.

Mr. Carver. I t hink that is correct, Sena tor.

Senator Anderson. Th ank you. Am ong oth er thi ng s they pu t in 

the Whit e Sa nds N atio nal Mo num ent of 146,000 acres; th at is a bom bing rang e. Do you think bom bing ran ges are po rtions of the w ild erness of this cou ntr y ?

Mr. Carver. No, sir.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 11

Senator Anderson. Neither do I.

Mr. Carver. No, sir; I don't.

Senator Church. They get that way after a while.

The Chairman. If they drop enough bombs on it maybe it will be 

a wilderness. [Laughter.]

Senator Anderson. It is a loneliness area. There are no houses in 

the area. The ranchers have all been moved out. Some people have 

improperly been grazing cattle, but we have the FB I and others on 

them now.

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir; I am aware of tha t problem.

Senator Anderson. I did not wish to take anybody else’s problems, 

but in the State of Alaska you have another 25,818,000 acres staked 

out. Do you not believe they have almost enough national parks in 

Alaska now in wilderness areas without adding 25 million acres more? 

T just do not understand how this thing can come out of the Inte rior 

Department. Nobody knows anything about it.

Mr. Carver. Well, it represented a rather expansive statement, as 

I say, unfortunate because it was not recognized tha t getting a big 

acreage in as the subject matter of the study would give the wrong 

implications.

Senator Anderson. I only hope, Mr. Carver, when you become 

Under Secretary, and I hope you will, that you might try to get these 

laws administered the wav the Congress intended them and as you 

know the Congress intended them.

Mr. Carver. T have been doing my very best, Senator.

Senator Anderson. The Congress did not intend that we should 

spend our time or the Department’s time to add to the wilderness 

system bv taking in bombing ranges.

Well, here is another subject : Did the Public Land Law Review 

Commission come under your jurisdiction at all ?

Mr. Carver. No, sir. Tha t is a-----

Senator Anderson. It is a land area function, is it not?

Mr. Carver. The Public Land Law Review Commission, according 

to the act which created it, is a combination of legislative and public 

membership, and the responsibilities of the Department are to have 

a liaison representative to it and to cooperate with it, and to help 

it out in any way t hat it can, but it is self-executing; that is it will 

carry on its own administrative and service functions except as 

they may ask us to do things, and we do not have the responsibility 

for it as a parent agency in any way.

Senator Anderson. Do I understand from that that the Dep artment of the Inte rior did not make the recommendation for the public 

members?

Mr. Carver. The recommendations for the public members, so far 

as I am aware as to how it was handled, involved discussion by the 

White House with several Cabinet members, including the Secretary 

of the Interior. I do not think it fair to say that we have the responsibility or have had the responsibility for those members.

Senator Anderson. It is interesting because-----

Mr. Carver. We were consulted and the Secretary-----

Senator Anderson. I am happy you were consulted because so far 

as I can find out no Member of the Senate or House was consulted.
12 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Mr. Carver. I am not only aware of tha t fact, Senator, but I am 

deeply regretful of it, but I had no control over it.

Senator Anderson. I am happy to have you say that. I knew you 

felt tha t way, because you were once up here on the Hill.

I think, for the record, since it looks as if my questions are hostile, 

it should be stated I vigorously opposed your selection as Assistant 

Secretary of the Interior 4 years ago and I want, Senator Church, to 

say that subsequently I wrote a letter and I said I was very sorry I had 

opposed him. You are a very fine officer and have proved to be a very 

good officer. I am certainly happy you won promotion as Under 

Secretary, and I am confident you will continue to do a fine job.

Mr. Carver. Thank you.

The Chairman. Senator Kuchel ?

Senator Kuchel. Mr. Secretary, I shall be very glad to vote in favor 

of your confirmation in the Senate. As a matter of fact, I take it your 

confirmation by the Senate is a foregone conclusion. You are going 

to assume the responsibilities that were discharged most of the last 4 

years by a longtime friend of mine, James Carr, a resident and citizen 

of California.

I remember a t the time Mr. Carr came before the committee there 

was apprehension raised as to whether or not he recognized tha t in 

the position he would be speaking for the Nation and not for the State 

from whence he came. I think his record does demonstrate tha t he 

was an officer of the Government of the United States and, precisely 

as you have indicated, your loyalty is to the people of the United States 

of America.

In your new responsibilities what will be your jurisdiction with 

respect to proposals for multipurpose reclamation projects?

Mr. Carver. Senator Kuchel, I am takin g over a job which will quite 

obviously be restructured somewhat from the way it has been handled 

in the past. I am not an engineer, and such specialization as I have 

had, as has been indicated, has been in the public land areas.

The job is a very amorphous one as it is provided in the statute and 

in the history of the Department, because pretty much it depends on 

the relationship between the Secretary and his No. 2 man, and the 

skills and the interest of each.

But with respect to the question you have asked, I would say that 

no special responsibility will be given to me in any given program 

area that I now know about.

I think the Secretary expects me to be a general executive officer, 

to assist in coordinaton of the various programs and become informed 

and help him on the whole range of matters, and so fa r I now know 

of no specific assignments in a program area that will be given to me.

Senator Kuchel. So that you would assist the Secretary of the 

Inte rior in the formulation of policy and recommendations with respect to reclamation projects and all the other official areas considered 

by the Department, and I assume speak for the Secretary in his 

absence ?

Mr. Carver. Yes, s ir; that is the nature of the job.

Senator Kuchel. I mention that, Mr. Secretary, because I very 

much hope that this present Congress may be able to use the language 

of the editorial which endorsed your candidacy, to find a bold, and a 

new solution to what I think the editorial called vexing old problems,
INTERIOR NOMINATION 13

and I spe ak of the problem of wa ter short age on the Colorado River, 

a matter th at is of the keenest concern to the dea n of the Sen ate, 

Senator H ay de n, his new colleague and ours, Se na tor Fa nn in , as well 

as to the two Ca lif ornia Senators, indeed I th in k to everyone aro un d 

thi s table. I would be com forted if you were able to say for the 

record th at , wi th resp ect to th at monum ental problem which tod ay 

plague s the whole Pacific Sou thw est, you would wa nt to work as 

closely as possible with the m embers of this com mittee in b ring in g to 

it the recommen dations which the De pa rtm ent, un de r the law, would 

have to br in g with respect to any leg islation th at would co nfront us.

Mr. Carver. I would hope, Senator , th at I could on this, as on all 

the ot he r prog rams of the De pa rtm ent, co operate closely w ith th is committee as we have trie d to do in the past.

Se na tor Kuche l. I am sure of th at and I am sure , also, th at your 

reco rd as A ssistan t Secret ary ind icates th at.

One more specific th ing , and I ask you t his because you are a l aw ye r: 

As my colle agues well know there has arisen in the last day s of 1964 

a legal problem between the Impe ria l Valley Ir riga tion D ist ric t in my 

St ate and the position of the De pa rtm en t of the In terior . I assum e 

th at that di spute will be litig ated . My o nly hope is. a nd I would tr us t 

th at you could com fort me on this, too, is t ha t the De pa rtm ent would 

wor k tow ard the earlies t conclusion of th at disagreem ent in the 

courts.

Mr. Carver. Yes, I can say categ orically, Senator , th at where you 

have conflicting in terp retatio ns of the law, and where a jud icial resolution is ind icated , I think we shou ld work t ow ard it as fast as we can 

in every instance. Tha t is the na ture of our system.

Se na tor K uchel. Well, I th an k you very m uch for th at.

I would like to say fo r the record, M r. Ch air ma n, th at y ou r friends 

on the mi no rity side tod ay are here in the absence of official Sen ate 

action denominating them , bu t as a matter of fac t, so are you. The 

mino rity com mittee on com mittees is me etin g now wr estling with the 

problem of com mittee assignm ents , an d our fri en d and colleague, 

Se nator Gordon Al lott, the sen ior Se na tor from Colorad o, is a mem ­

ber of th at com mittee and, there for e, is abs ent fro m th is hearing. I 

want to say since he has asked me to do so, th at he fav ors the nom ina ­

tion of Secre tar y Ca rver to be U nd er Secre tar y of the De pa rtm en t of 

the In te rior and wanted those views, his views, spr ead upo n thi s 

record.

So I sim ply say I look forw ard to wo rking with you and ge tting 

to know you be tte r, and I wish you good luck in yo ur new re sponsib ilities.

Mr. Carver. Th an k you, Se nator.

The Chairm an. Se na tor Bible ?

Se nator Bible. Th an k you , Mr. Chairm an.

I th in k this is a splend id nomination, and I hope it is speedily confirmed.

I am no t quite clea r, Mr. Se cre tar y, in yo ur response to Se na tor 

Kuche l as to exa ctly wh at yo ur duties will be as U nd er Se creta ry of 

the I nter ior. Has th at been del ine ate d yet ? Did I un de rstand your 

response to be th at i t ha sn ’t been com pletely wor ked ou t vet ?

Mr. Carver. No, sir. W ha t I was tryi ng to indic ate to Se nator 

Kuc hel was th at a ny special d uti es which my pred ece ssor ha d by vi rtu e
14 INTERIOR NOMINATION

of his own tal en ts and experience wou ld no t aut om atical ly devolve to 

me and, as a m at ter of fac t, I could n’t handle specializat ion in wa ter 

because I do n’t hav e th at backg round.

The job of Und er S ecret ary is s tru ctur ed about like the Vice Pr es ident of the Un ite d S tates. You are supposed to stan d in fo r the S ecreta ry and perfo rm th e dut ies of the Secretar y in his absence. You can 

of course, be a ssig ned br oad areas o f res ponsibi lity—also, specific pr ogra m r espons ibilities which I do no t anti cip ate .

Gener ally spe aking, I think the De pa rtm ent could pro fit fro m the 

Secre tary ha vin g a s ecr eta rial officer to act as sort of a gen eral executive, like an executive officer in the military, to keep thing s pulled to ­

gethe r and moving down the road.

Senator Bible. Obviously, you a re an expert in p ublic land m anagement because th at has been your res ponsibi lity fo r the pa st 4 years. 

Could you indica te fo r the record wh at p rogre ss the De partm ent has 

made in im ple me nting the pu blic sales bill th at was enacted a t t he last 

Congress and one w ith which you are very f am ili ar? I think you are 

pro bab ly the au thor of it as to the sales of pub lic lan d. Wh ere do 

we stan d precise ly on the imp lem entatio n at this time ?

Mr. Carver. As to whe re we sta nd precisely, I can ’t be sure th at T 

know, bu t we h ave d evised reg ula tio ns w hich are req uired to be pu blished to imple me nt th e bro adened sale au thor ity which Congres s 

granted to us in the last session.

I will be g lad to sub mit for the r ecord a p recise statem ent of where 

it is now. I ju st fra nk ly don’t know where we are in th at process.

Se nator Bible. These are reg ulati on s to imp lem ent the sta tute on 

the sale of certa in publi c lands. Now, I th ink each of us received 

many inq uiries as to how a political subdivisio n acqu ires lan d or how 

an indiv idu al acquires lan d under th is Pu blic Law 88-608 . How do 

we answ er th at question ?

Mr. Carver. We ll, T thi nk (hat the way you would ans wer th at 

question is by advis ing these people th at the sta tute requires im ple ­

me nti ng reg ula tions, th at the De partm ent is in th at process, and then 

I t hink t he D epart ment ought to be urg ed, and T will take your question to us, t o get t ha t process completed more quickly.

Senator Bible. Do you have a tim etable on it?

Mr. Carver. I f you will forgiv e me, T think T can inq uire about it.

Senator Bible. Ce rtainly.

Mr. Carver. I am inform ed the y have been sent out for final check 

to our field people to determ ine the practic ality , and we will pub lish 

them next m onth and have them rea dy in March.

Se nator Bible. Th is require s a 30-d ay pub lication in the Fe deral 

Re gis ter before they are effective ?

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir, tha t is my unde rst an din g.

Senator Bible. Ar e these cir cularize d to any of the m embers of thi s 

committee or to the Congres s b efore they are act ually publis hed ?

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. In case we have some suggestion as to the proposed 

reg ula tion?

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir.

Senator Bible. There is one f ur th er area I would lik e to explor e ju st 

very briefly. I think we are all well aware th at thi s com mittee will 

hav e a gre at, great ma ny proposals before it in this com ing Congres s
INTERIOR NOMINATION 15

for national parks, national seashores, national monuments, national 

historical sites, national recreational areas, and every other type of 

recreation facility that is known.

Now, do you have any thoughts, based upon your secretaryship 

over the last 4 years in public land management, as to how far and how 

fast the Congress of the United States should go in authorizing these 

proposals ? This is a big order for the Congress because we are receiving proposals for these very much needed recreation areas from every 

direction. But there are price tags and how fast should we move? 

Which one should be given priority ?

Mr. Carver. Senator Bible, 1 have had some experience in the very 

fruitless effort of trying to devise priorities or an order of ranking or 

a projection as to what would be a reasonable package to ask any given 

Congress to adopt. Certainly in the last Congress, as an example, the 

Congress accomplished much more in terms of parks than 1 would 

have said possible up to 2 or 3 months before its end. My own philosophy on this thing is that we should get the Congress all of the information on every aspect of it, and we should work closely with them, 

keep them informed. 1 think it is our duty to keep as much pressure 

for parks legislation as we can legitimately keep on the Congress but 

it is a matter of working it out, because the Congress in the final 

analysis is the arbiter of how f ar and how fast we go. It is our duty 

to service the Congress with the information on which it can base its 

judgment as to how far it wants to go in a given session.

Senator Bible. Obviously, the Land and Water Conservation Fu nd 

proved a very helpful vehicle in carrying forward some of these proposals. Now, exactly how well that is going to work out remains to 

be seen.

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Senator Bible. But I simply wanted to explore with you your ideas 

as to moving in this general area.

Mr. Carver. Well, I think it is fa ir to say we will probably always 

try to have more proposals before you than any reasonable administrator could expect you to get entirely completed. We are not in the 

position of telling any given Member or given Senator that his proposal is one which we would just as soon put off until the next year. 

In other words, these arrangements pretty much have to be made in the 

legislative branch. We have to be able to be ready to take what we 

can get when we get it.

Senator Bible. I appreciate the practicality of th at suggestion, and 

your clear recognition tha t there is a Congress. I think tha t is. 

helpful. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Bible.

Senator Simpson ?

Senator Simpson. Mr. Chairman, I will be brief.

I can testify to the unimpeachable integrity and loyalty to the 

institutions of John Carver. My knowledge goes back to his days 

with Senator Church, and I hope you will keep tha t wonderful contact warm with the people involved and some of the things brought 

before the Interior Committee and the Inte rior Department.
16 INTERIOR NOMINATION

I would like to ask you, back in 1961 my predecessor, Se nator H ickey 

of W yom ing, said th is of yo u:

The only question I have is th is : There has been some question in the West 

with rega rd to the venue problem. Public land questions arise and it involves 

the litigan ts coming back to the dis tric t to have problems settled which might 

involve the Under Secretaries or Assistant Secretaries.

What is your attitude toward legislation th at might possibly place the venue 

in the d istr icts and put the litigation more closely to the citizens affected?

Would yo ur answ er be the same now as it was th en ?

Mr. Carver. We ll, my answer is the same bu t I believe the reco rd 

ought to show th at is one fight we won. Se na tor Ch urch ’s bill, to 

esta blish venue in the dis tricts where the lan d is, is the law of land.

Senator Simpson. I am worried ab out th e lack of su pp ort sometimes 

from the Departm ent.

Mr. Carver. We ll, you will get the same sup port from me. I 

worked h ard to ge t d epart me nta l ap prov al of th is bill dow ntow n, and 

I w ould again.

Senator Simpson. Ve ry good.

Th at is all.

The Chairman. Se na tor Gru ening ?

Senator Grue nin g. I would like to say I am very ha pp y at thi s 

nom ination . I th ink it is a well-deserved recognition of excellent 

service, and I am very ha pp y it has been made . I shall be very ha pp y 

to vote fo r it.

I didn ’t inte nd to ask M r. Ca rver any questions, and I shall not go 

into any gr ea t detail, bu t I am grateful to Se nator And erson fo r calling attenti on to the 25,818,494 a cres th at seem to be un de r stu dy. I 

won der wh eth er As sis tan t Secre tar y Ca rver know s th at the Ar ctic 

Na tional W ild lif e Ra nge of 8,900,000 acres was studied carefully by a 

committee of the Senate, subcommittee of Commerce which was 

cha ired by my colleagu e, Senator Bar tlet t, and the committee reported adv ersely on setting this are a aside af te r extensive heari ng s 

and th at , nev erth eless, the the n Se cre tar y of the In terio r, Fr ed Sea ton, 

in his closing days set it aside with a stroke of the pen. Does Mr. 

Ca rver appro ve o f th at kin d of action by a Secre tar y af te r the Con ­

gress has clea rly exp ressed its view ?

Mr. Carver. Well, I believe, Se na tor Gr uenin g, th at my ph ilo ­

sophical attit ud e about the responsibilitie s of the Congress un de r 

artic le 4, section 3, clause 2 of the Co nstituti on over the te rritor y and 

lan ds of the Uni ted Sta tes , has been exp ressed many times in many 

forms and I do n ot believe in using the executive po wer in t hat fashion.

Se na tor Grue ning. I am ve ry g lad to hea r th at .

I wonde r wh eth er Sec retary Ca rver also knows th at th e Kenai National Moose Ra nge of 2,057,197 acres was set aside by a form er Secretary of the In te rior witho ut any he aring des pite requ ests fo r it ? 

Would Mr. Ca rver appro ve the setting asid e of an are a of th at size, 

wi thou t a h earin g, when it h as been requested by responsible officials 

of th e t er rito ry or St ate ?

Mr. Carver. We ll, I would like to say th at not only wou ld I no t 

app rov e it b ut the Cong ress, un de r the packa ge of pub lic lan ds bills 

enacted in the 88th Cong ress, has acted affirmatively to see th at this 

could no t happen. Th e classification and mu ltiple-u se act, whi ch the 

Congress passed last year, would pro vid e fo r a he ari ng process of an 

affirm ative nature before this kin d of actio n could be taken.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 17

Se na tor Grue ning. Th an k you v ery much.

The Chairman. Se nator Moss?

Se na tor Moss. Th an k you, Mr. C hairm an.

Mr. Carve r, I am del igh ted to be here on th is comm ittee tod ay and 

I am prepared to act on this nomination affirmatively, as I am sure 

you must know from the long association we have had . I wou ld like 

to say fo r the record t hat w here as we so often get lost in the redtap e 

of burea ucr acy when we go dow ntown tryi ng to solve some pro ble m 

fo r a constituent or som ething th at conc erns our State , th at 1 think 

the best red tape cu tte r I ever fou nd in Washin gto n is Jo hn Ca rver, 

li e cert ain ly is a m an who goes righ t to the h ea rt of the pro blem an d 

is very skil led at brushing aside all of the ram ificatio ns an d cros scurre nts th at seem to involve so many of the problems we h ave.

I think it is de lig htful th at Mr. Ca rver has now been nomi nated 

to be th e D eputy Se cre tar y of th e In terior , de facto.

I suppose t hat would be a way to describe th e office, the second man, 

and to be in an even bette r position to cut redtap e because he can go 

into m ore departm ents now.

I have ju st one question I would like to ask of you, Mr. Ca rver. 

Yo ur assign ment heret ofo re as Assist an t Secre tar y had to do with 

the pub lic lan ds and the natio nal pa rk are as prim arily . Now, as the 

Und er Secre tary, this will also incl ude some sup erv isory fun ctions in 

the Bu rea u of Reclama tion and In dia n Af fai rs and , of cours e, you 

hav e ha d In di an Affairs before, bu t the B ureau of Reclama tion I was 

thinki ng of pa rti cu larly . We have so rt of a co nti nuing p roblem betwee n people who think th at all rec lam ation proje cts a re bad because 

they ten d to cha nge the na tural con tou rs of the lan d or som eth ing o f 

th at sort, and, the ref ore, are in opp osition. I call att en tio n pa rtic ular ly to the gr ea t Lake Powell th at h as been cre ated by Glen Canyon 

Dam which is one of the scenic jewels of the w orld, I think . We s till 

con stantly ge t p ro pa ga nd a maintaining this is bad because it c han ged 

the riv er th at was there.

I would like to have some expression of you r attit ud e in refer eeing 

this contest between the wa ter rec lam ationists and the sort of wild erness or o utd oor advocates who wa nt to leave e verything in its n at ur al 

state. Would you give us a lit tle s tatem ent of yo ur attit ud e on this?

Mr. Carver. Se na tor Moss, you pu t yo ur finger, of course, on one 

of t he s everal bu ilt-in philosoph ical conflicts w hich exist in a D ep ar tment like I nter ior. 1 ha ve tri ed specifically in the la nd a rea s to work, 

to begin to work, towa rd a be tte r discip line wi thin the De partm ent. 

Spec ifica lly, I th ink th at rec lam atio n p eople shou ld not expres s in p ub ­

lic conclusions about wh at m akes a good pa rk or w ha t doesn’t m ake a 

good pa rk, an d in the same way the pa rk people should not express 

them selves as to wh at con stitutes the bes t dev elopments of a rive r or 

exa ctly how a given reservoir should r un .

If you can tak e the war ring conflict ou t of the lo wer echelons of the 

De pa rtm ent, then yo u leave the Se creta ry in a bette r p osition to make 

the ha rd choices th at sometimes hav e to be made.

When it comes to the u ltim ate h ard choice, pa rticul arly in th e W est 

where you are deali ng with fed era lly autho riz ed pro gra ms, th at ultimate ha rd choice f req uentl y involves giving all of th e da ta a nd in fo rma tion and facts to the Congress. May be with a recom mendatio n, 

sometimes witho ut, so th at the resolu tion of a pro blem wh ethe r you
18 INTERIOR NOMINATION

are going to build a dam or not build a dam, in the last analysis depends on whether the Congress authorizes the dam or not, or whether 

the Federal Power Commission may license one under some general 

authority.

So to summarize, I would say that we ought to have a little bit more 

discipline within the Department, less public controversy within our 

own group. And the larger issue, of course, I think the parks, important. as they are, a system of recreation, must take into account 

the needs of 400 million people in 75 or a hundred years to have food, 

fiber, and fuel. This will mean development. It will mean development in some cases which conflicts with parks, and I think the country 

is getting much more able to reconcile these things and to come to an 

agreeable resolution of them t ha t satisfies most everybody.

Senator Moss. Thank you. I think th at is a good statement of your 

philosophy on that, and I appreciate it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Senator Burdick ?

Senator Burdick. Mr. Chairman, having known Mr. Carver over 

the past 4 years, I consider this an excellent appointment. I just have 

one question to ask.

I think in November Mr. Gordon of the Bureau of the Budget made 

a speech, and I believe he said something about reclamation. . Did 

you read that speech ?

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir.

Senator Burdick. Do you have any comments to make about his 

views on reclamat ion ?

Mr. Carver. Well, I must say tha t when it comes to comments by 

people in my position what I said just a moment ago about the 

Bureau of Reclamation and the Park Service applies. I do not think 

it appropriate for me to break discipline, so to speak, with the office 

of the Bureau of the Budget or the President. In a general way, of 

course, this committee knows that I am a westerner, and knows what 

irrigated reclamation has meant to the developments of my region 

and what it can still mean.

Senator Burdick. Thank you very much.

The Chairman. Senator Metcalf ?

Senator Metcalf. Mr. Chairman, I want to concur in the praise 

tha t all of my colleagues have heaped upon Secretary Carver. I want 

to especially compliment him for a superb administrative performance 

as Assistant Secretary.

It was under your leadership that we had begun to make some sense 

out of the chaotic condition of our Bureau of Land Management program, and you p ut across a concept of multiple use on public domain 

that many of us have been working for over the years in Congress 

and for the first time we have had cooperation from the Secretary of 

the Interior.

The public sales bill that you commented on to Senator Bible was 

a landmark bill, I believe, in the development of the public domain.

I want to also compliment you on your work for the modernization 

of land laws, and you will recall that the Mizpah-Pumpkin Creek 

District was predecessor and forerunner of the grazing districts under tl e Taylor Grazing Act. So for all of the years we have had a
INTERIOR NOMINATION 19

problem in tha t area, and your diplomacy has worked out and solved 

that problem, especially in Montana.

Now, President Johnson, in his state of the Union message—and 

I concur in that, too—suggested that we need more recreation areas, 

and Senator Bible and Senator Moss and some of the others have 

talked about national parks tha t were going to be worked on in this 

session of Congress.

Do you envisage some conflict in your duties as custodian of the 

public lands and the public domain and some disruption of the present 

uses if we incorporate these public domain areas into the national parks 

and recreation areas ?

Mr. Carver. Well, if I understand your question correctly, Senator 

Metcalf, there is a built-in conflict if an area is by congressional action 

made a park, whereas theretofore it had been in public domain status.

Senator Metcalf. I say this because you have been a long advocate 

of multiple use and this is a specialized use.

Mr. Carver. Wha t I think we are coming a long way toward, and 

what I think the President deserves most credit for, is a kind of 

cooperative, creative attitude about these land arrangements so that 

we don’t have such doctrinaire differences, and we can accommodate 

recreation and many other uses along with the continuance of the 

economic sustenance for groups which have depended upon the public 

domain. But every once in awhile you run into the head-on clash, 

and I think one of the things that the Public Land Law’ Review Commission will certainly grapple with, we have to w’orry about it in the 

meantime, is to be sure when th at clash comes the users who are displaced will be fairly treated.

Senator Metcalf. Now, you have anticipated somewhat my next 

point. I was wondering, in view of your experience as an administrator of public lands and especially the Bureau of Land Management, 

if we couldn’t have some sort of a trial area set aside, say Montana, 

or Nevada, to determine multiple use and other uses of public lands 

for the benefit of Public Land Law Review Commission.

Mr. Carver. I think if the Commission should ask us to do that it 

would be a very appropriate thing to do. I think that they would have 

authority, and I think th at we would have authority, besides responding to their questions, to undertake to demonstrate within such controlled conditions as they might specify. However, tha t would be up 

to the Commission.

All I can say is that from the Department’s side I would recommend 

cooperation in any such project.

Senator Metcalf. I would like in advance to have you look into 

something like a pilot project.

Mr. Carver. Yes, sir: I understand what you mean.

Senator Metcalf. A pilot project in some area such as the Charles 

M. Russell Game Range, the establishment which is one of the outstanding accomplishments of this administration. The range has contributed to the multiple-use management of tha t whole area, and I 

would like to see your agency go into some one or two similar pilot 

projects. You could start a Gary Cooper Range up in the State of 

Montana or something like tha t to help guide the Public Land Law 

Review’ Commission, in which I have a great deal of personal interest 

and concern, in w orking out better land management programs.
20 INTERIOR NOMIN ATION

Do you think we could do that ?

Mr. Carver. I certainly think we could, Senator Metcalf, and I am 

sure you will find an enthusiastic advocate for this kind of an approach in the Director of the Bureau of Land Management, who is 

strongly interested himself.

Senator Metcalf. Thank you, and I look forward to working with 

you.

Again, you have my enthusiastic approbation of this appointment.

The Chairman. Senator Morse had a statement that he wanted read 

into the record.

It will be included immediately following the comments of Senator 

Metcalf.

(The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMEN T OF HCN. WA YN E MORSE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF OREGON

Senator Morse. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it 

gives me a great deal of pleasure to submit this statement in support 

of the nomination of John Carver to serve as Under Secretary of the 

Department of the Interior. In my opinion, Mr. Carver is eminently 

qualified for this position and it is my pleasure to cite two outstanding 

achievements which demonstrate that, he has the ability to serve well 

in this new assignment.

The members of this committee, especially Senators Anderson and 

Bible, will remember that, in 1961,1 suggested a totally new approach 

to rangeland conservation. I urged a program of direct investments 

where surveys showed a need both to reduce grazing and to treat a 

deteriorated watershed. I urged a program of comprehensive watershed development for our rangeland.

This led to four pilot projects in Oregon, New Mexico, Nevada, and 

Idaho.

These have produced outstanding conservation results and in the 

process have stabilized—yes, increased—grazing use.

John Carver played a large and constructive role in the implementation of this program.

On Columbus Day, 1962, a hurricane swept the Pacific Northwest, 

blowing down billions of board feet of timber in the State of Oregon, 

as well as in the State of Washington. As the chairman knows, John 

Carver responded at once. He acted as a catalyst to unite public and 

private efforts in what became a most successful endeavor to salvage 

for economic use the greatest amount of timber to have been destroyed 

by an act of Nature. The prompt action that John Carver spearheaded averted the destruction of billions of additional board feet 

of standing timber by insects and disease.

John Carver, as Assistant Secretary of Interior, has done an outstanding job in the public interest for conservation. I am delighted 

tha t the President has submitted his name for the post of Under Secretary , and I urge his prompt confirmation, both by this committee 

and by the Senate.

The Chairman. The Chair notes that he has overlooked the most 

important part of the proceedings. I believe Mrs. Carver is here, if 

she wou Id stand. [Applause.]
INTERIOR NOMINATION 21

The Chairman. Secretary Carver, it looks like the question is in 

doubt here and I think we will have to have a vote. If there is no 

objection, we will vote in public session. I see no need to go into 

executive session.

Senator Anderson. I move the nomination be favorably reported.

Senator Church. 1 second the motion.

The Chairman. It has been moved and seconded that the nomination 

be reported. Without objection, the nomination will be reported, and 

the Senators who are absent now also desire it so reported, and the 

record will show t hat the nomination was reported unanimously by 

all those present.

Senator Church. Like the rising verdict of a jury.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the committee recessed, subject to the 

call of the Chair.)

o