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COMMITTEE ON

INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGH TY -NINTH CONG RESS

SE CO ND SE SS IO N

ON

T H E NOM IN ATI ON OF CHARLE S F. LU CE TO B E UN DER 

SE CR ET ARY OF T H E D EPA RTM EN T OF T H E IN T ER IO R

SEPTEM B ER 8, 1966

P ri n te d f o r th e u se of th e 

Com m ittee o n In te ri o r and In su la r Affai rs

69-027

U.S. GO VE RN MEN T PR IN TI NG OF FICE 

WA SH INGT ON : 1966
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COM MITTEE ON INTE RIOR AND INSULAR AFFA IRS

IIE NR Y M. JACKSON, Washington, Chairman

CLIN TON P. ANDERSON, New Mexico

ALAN BIB LE, Nevada

FRAN K CHU RCH , Idaho

ERNEST GR UENIN G, Alaska

FRA NK E. MOSS, Utah

QUENTIN N. BURD ICK , North Dakota

CARL IIAY DEN, Arizona

GEO RGE MCGOVERN, South Dakota

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

LEE METCALF, Montana

THOMAS II. KUCHEL, California 

GORDON ALL OTT, Colorado 

LEN B. JORDAN , Idaho 

MILWARD L. SIMPSON, Wyoming 

PAUL J. FAN NIN , Arizona

Jerry T. Verkler, Staff Director

Stewart French, Chief Counsel

E. Lewis Reid, Minority Counsel
NOMINATION OF CHARLES F. LUCE TO BE UNDER 

SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

TH U R SD A Y , SE P T E M B E R 8, 19 66

U.S. Senate,

Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m. in room 3110, 

Senate Office Building, Senator Henry M. Jackson (chairman of 

the committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Henry M. Jackson (Washington), Clinton P. 

Anderson (New Mexico), Ernest Gruening (Alaska), Frank E. Moss 

(Utah), Quentin N. Burdick (North Dako ta), George McGovern 

(South Dakota), Gaylord Nelson (Wisconsin), Thomas H. Kucliel 

(California), and Paul J. Fannin (Arizona).

Also present: Jerry T. Verkler, staff director; Stew art French, 

chief counsel; Roy M. Whitacre, professional staff member; and E. 

Lewis Reid, minority counsel.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

This is an open hearing by the Committee on In terior and Insular 

Affairs on the nomination by President Johnson of Mr. Charles F. 

Luce to be Under Secretary of the Dep artm ent of the Interior.

Mr. Luce has had a distinguished career in the executive branch 

of the Government and has served with great energy and ability as 

Administrator of the Bonneville Power Administration since 1961.

Without objection, I will direct that a biographical sketch of Mr. 

Luce, supplied by the Department of the Interior, appear in the record 

of this hearing at the conclusion of my opening remarks.

In his new post, Mr. Luce will succeed Mr. John A. Carver, Jr., 

who has been appointed by the President as a member of the Federal 

Power Commission. As I pointed out in my statement on the floor 

of the Senate on August 31, Mr. Carver has been well and favorably 

known to this committee. Many of us first knew him when he was 

administrative assistant to our distinguished colleague, the senior 

Senator from Idaho, Senator Church. He was appointed Assistant 

Secretary of the Interior for Public Lands by President Kennedy in 

1961, and subsequently became Under Secretary. I know I speak 

for all the members of the committee when I wish John Carver every 

success in his new post.

Mr. Luce also is already well known to the members of this committee. It will be recalled tha t he has assisted us on several of the 

major bills, including the third powerplant at Grand Coulee Dam in 

this Congress and the Pacific Northwest-Pacific Southwest intertie 

in the 88th Congress.

I am proud to have known Charles Luce both personally and 

officially for many years, and I know he will bring the same outstand1
2 INTERIOR NOMINATION

ing ability, initiative, and industry to his new post tha t has characterized his service in the past.

At this critical point in history, it has become increasingly obvious 

that our Nation must marshal ail of our natura l resources to meet the 

needs of a growing population and a complex modern society. 1 am 

confident that Charles F. Luce will play a major role in meeting this 

national need.

There is no question about the ability and qualifications of Mr. Luce 

to carry out the new assignment entrusted to him by the President. 

He has demonstrated creative imagination, courage in pursuing 

difficult goals, and highest competence in directing a revitalized resource development and conservation program.

His achievements are legion. They include, in addition to those I 

already have mentioned, the Columbia River Treaty with Canada, 

advancement of direct-current transmission, and the Hanford nuclear 

powerplant, among many others. All have demonstrated a new high 

in cooperation among public and private electrical generating and distribution agencies and government and have produced significant 

benefits for the Nation.

(The biographical lette r referred to follows:)

U.S. Department of the I nterior,

Bonneville Power Administration,

Portland, Oreg., September 1, 1966.

Hon. Henry M. J ackson,

Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs,

U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

My Dear Mr. Chairman: Herewith is biographical data which your Comm ittee has requested in connection with my nomination by Presiden t Johnson to 

serve as Under Secretary of the Depar tment of the Inte rior.

I was born in Platteville, Wisconsin, on August 29, 1917. My father is Jam es 

O. Luce and my mother Wilma Grindell Luce; both still reside in Platteville. I 

have one brother, James Jr., age 47, who resides in Detroit, Michigan.

I am married to Helen Oden Luce, formerly of Mansfield Center, Connecticut. 

Our four children and their ages are: James 22, Christine and Barbara 15, and 

Charles 10. Our domicile is Walla Walla County, Washington. Our residence 

the p ast five years has been 7012 E ast Sleret, Vancouver, Washington.

My formal education includes Platteville High School, from which I graduated 

in 1935; Platteville Teachers College, which I attend ed from 1935 to 1937; the 

University of Wisconsin, from which I received B.A. and LL.B. degrees in 1941; 

and Yale Law School, where I did grad uate studies on a Sterling Fellowship, 

1941-1942. I am a member of Phi Beta Kappa, Order of the Coif, and Phi De lta 

Phi. I am a dmitted to the practice of law in Washington, Oregon, a nd Wisconsin.

Upon the completion of my studies at Yale, I was employed as an attorney by 

the Board of Economic Warfare in 1942—1943; as law clerk to Mr. Justice Black 

in 1943-1944; and as an attorn ey for the Bonneville Power Adm inistration 1944- 

1946. Because of a light case of polio I was unable to serve in World War II 

except as a seaman in the tem porary Coast Guard Reserve at Portlan d, Oregon. 

In September 1946, I hung out my shingle as a lawyer in Walla Walla, VVashington, where I engaged in the general practice of law continuously until Feb ruary 

14, 1961, when I was appointed by Secretary of the Interior Stewart L. Udall to 

be Adm inistrator of the Bonneville Power Administration. I still occupy th at 

position. .

If there is additional biographical information which the Committee desires, 

I would be pleased to provide it.

Sincerely yours, Charles F. Luce.

The Chairman. Before I call on Mr. Luce himself for any statement he may care to make, does any member of the committee wish 

to be heard at this time?
INTERIOR NOMINATION 3

Senator Nelson. Mr. Chairman, may T say I am exceptionally 

pleased with this fine appointment by the President. I have known 

Charles Luce since the early 1940’s when we were in law school 

together. He is a very able lawyer, a very distinguished public 

servant.

I think it is a very fine appointment. I will have more to say about 

it on the floor of the Senate when the nomination goes to the floor.

The C hairman. Than k you, Senator Nelson.

Mr. Luce, if you would make a statem ent now, I suggest you sta rt 

by giving a brief summary of your biography, and any other comments 

you wish to make.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES F. LUCE

Mr. Luce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the 

committee.

It is a pleasure to be here again before this committee. I am 

happy to hear from the chairman that my previous appearances in 

the third powerhouse hearings and the Pacific intertie hearings may 

have been of assistance to the committee, because I can assure the 

committee tha t it has been of great assistance to the programs of 

the Department of the Interior and the Bonneville Power Administration in both of these areas.

I have filed with the committee a somewhat detailed biographical 

statement, which I will summarize.

For the last 20 years, my family and I have been residents of Walla 

Walla County, Wash. I am a native of the State of Wisconsin and 

a graduate of the Law School of the U niversity of Wisconsin in 1941.

Upon finishing law school at Madison, Wis., I did a year of graduate 

work a t Yale Law School under a Sterling fellowship. Then I came, 

in 1942, to Washington, D.C., as a young lawyer with what was 

called the Board of Economic Warfare. After a year at the Board 

of Economic Warfare, I was appointed by Mr. Justice Hugo L. Black 

as his law clerk and served for him in tha t capacity in the October 

1943 term of court.

After I finished my clerkship, I moved to the State of Washington 

and worked for the Bonneville Power Administration for 2 years 

while taking my bar exams in both Washington and Oregon. I was 

admitted to practice in both States.

In 1946 I moved to Walla Walla, Wash., and hung out a shingle as a 

lawyer in tha t community, where I practiced law for the following 15 

years. My practice was a general one, as any practice is in a community the size of Walla Walla, which has a population of about 

25,000 persons. If I had any specialty at all, it arose from the circumstance tha t I was counsel for the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla 

Indian Reservation, headquartered near Pendleton, Oreg., which is 

only about 50 miles from Walla Walla.

In 1961 I was asked by Secretary Udall to become the Administrator 

of the Bonneville Power Administration. I accepted the job and 

have served in tha t capacity for the last 5% years.

I have a family consisting of a wife, Helen, and four children. My 

oldest, a boy, is a freshman at the University of Wisconsin Law School 

this fall. My other children are in high school and grade school here 

in the District of Columbia where we have purchased a home.
4 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Tha t, I think, is a thumbnail sketch of my biography, my professional experience, and my family.

I come to this job with a considerable feeling of humility. I know 

that it is a very large job, and a difficult one. I do believe strongly in 

the mission of the Department of the Interior which has become not 

just a department of natu ral resources for the West, but a departmen t of natural resources for the entire Nation. This development is 

emphasized most recently by the President’s transferring responsibility for water pollution control to the D epartment of the Interior.

We do administer a large part of the federally owned natu ral 

resources of this country, and upon the kind of job we do will depend 

a large part of the future of this country, not only as to its quantity , 

as Secretary Udall has pointed out, but as to the quality of the life 

that we have in the United States.

It is not enough, as I see it, and as Secretary Udall has stated, to 

have a high standard of living in terms of material goods, but, in addition to that, we must have an environment in which it is pleasant 

and spiritually fulfilling to live. So at the D epartmen t of the Interior 

we must strive for both of those objectives.

I hope, under the leadership of President Johnson and Secretary 

Udall, and with the help of this committee, to meet the many challenges that continually confront the Department of the Interior.

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Luce.

The Chair wishes to announce tha t Senator Bible has sent a letter 

to the chairman warmly praising Mr. Luce, and asking that he be 

recorded in favor of his confirmation. He is being detained out of 

the city.

(The letter referred to follows:)

U.S. Se n a t e,

C o m m it t ee on I n t e r io r an d I n su la r Af f a ir s ,

September 8, 1966.

li o n . H en ry M . J ackso n,

Chairman, Senate Interio r and Insular A ffa irs Committee,

U.S . Senate, Washington, D.C.

D ea r Sc o o p: I sincerely regret my inability to attend the hearings on the 

confirmation of the app oin tment of Charles Luce to be Under Secretary of the 

Interior.

Chuck Luce is one of the finest and best qualified individuals I know in the 

public service. Our close association as a result of his appearances before both 

this Committee and the Appropriations Committee have indicated to me th at he 

has the knowledge and the tem per ament to perform an outstan ding service in 

this position so im portant to the continued growth of th e far west and the na tion.

Please record me as voting wholeheartedly in favor of confirmation of the 

nomination.

Cordially,

A la n Bib l e .

The Chairman. Senator Anderson?

Senator Anderson. I am happy tha t Mr. Luce has the attitu des 

he has indicated. I know something about his background, and I 

believe he will be a fine administrator. Personally, I am very pleased 

with this appointment.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Anderson.

Senator Kuchel?

Senator Kuchel. My contacts with the Under Secretary of Interiordesignate have been many, and in great pa rt they dealt a couple of 

years ago with the enormous problem of in ter tie legislation, which 

the chairman was most interested in and is most interested in.
INTERIOR NOMIN ATION O

I have no hesitation in saying tha t in my judgment Charles Luce, 

by education, by experience, and by integrity, is qualified for this 

position.

Mr. Luce, you and I had a talk earlier. A Member of the U.S. 

Senate must be a Senator for the country, but he must also be a 

Senator for his State. It is exceedingly difficult when those two 

laudable and understandable aims may be somewhat a t cross-purposes, 

although I doubt that tha t is the fact too often.

At any rate, you have seen a regional responsibility of considerable 

magnitude with the Bonneville Power Administration and you now 

assume a crucially importa nt national responsibility. You cease 

to be politically or governmentally a citizen or a resident of any 

part of this Nation. At any rate, that would be, and I am sure 

will be, an irrelevant consideration as you approach these new tasks.

I remember when the late great President Kennedy was sworn in. 

He saw fit to appoint a Californian to the position which you are 

about to occupy. I remember the great apprehension which was 

voiced by my able friend from New Mexico as to the competency of a 

Californian being able to discharge responsibilities in this post.

I think as my constituen t James Carr left the Federal service, he 

left with a record of having approached things from the standpoint 

of what was best in the national interest.

As 1 said, and I repeat, you are qualified, in my judgment, by education, by experience, and by your past record.

I want you, for this record, to express to the very able chairman 

of this committee, your friend and my friend, and the members, 

your concept of your responsibilities.

Mr. Luce. Thank you, Senator Kuchel.

As I pointed out in my brief opening remarks, the Department of 

the Interior has become a national department. My responsibilities 

are those that the Secretary of the Interior confers upon me. His 

concept of his position, coming from the S tate of Arizona, have been, 

nevertheless, to try to conduct the affairs of the Department of the 

Interior on a national basis.

I will endeavor similarly to be guided by the national interest and 

not by any regional interest, Senator Kuchel.

The chairman of this committee has talked to me also about having 

this national approach to the job, and I have assured him tha t I will 

try to have it.

Senator K uchel. I have no further questions. This public s ervant 

has demonstrated to the members of this committee and to people 

here in Washington in the Federal Government his own dedication to 

a public trust.

All I can say is tha t I congratulate Mr. Luce on entering upon an 

office of enormous responsibility, not simply to western America, bu t 

to the entire country.

I look forward to working with you, Mr. Luce during the next 2 

years and, as a ma tter of fact maybe I will be around here longer than 

that too.

Mr. Luce. Maybe I will too, Senator Kuchel.

The Chairman. We hope so.

Senator Gruening?

Senator Gruening. Than k you, Mr. Chairman.
6 INTERIOR NOMINATION

I am mu ch pleased with thi s ap po intm en t, Mr. Ch air man. I am 

hopeful th at Un der Secre tar y Luc e will have the op po rtun ity to visit 

Ala ska, which he has no t yet done, realizin g th at practic ally all the 

gr ea t po ten tia ls in Ala ska are de alt with on the Fe deral leve l by the 

Dep artm en t of the In terior —minin g, fisheries and wildlife, pub lic 

lands, parks , power, the Alaska Ra ilroa d, an d abo ve all, the gr ea t 

hu man po ten tia l which will be utilized as the talents of the Esk imos, 

India ns, an d Aleut s are dev elop ed, thereb y ena bling them to ma ke 

the ir tru e co ntr ibuti on to mo dern society . These are all responsibilities of the Dep ar tm en t of the In terio r. Th ey all merit increased 

activ ity .

In the field of power, it is a regr ettable fac t th at only on e-qu arter 

of 1 perce nt of A laska’s hy dro po tent ial has been developed . Du rin g 

the half centur y before th e adm ission of Ala ska as a St ate, between 

the tim e th e last two St ates previo usly were ad mitted , Arizona and 

New Mexico in 1912, hy dro was discovered and de mon str ated its 

superla tiv e value in all the great dams th at have been bu ilt in the 

West —Boulde r Da m, Grand Coulee, Bonneville, with which you are 

so fam ilia r, an d all the res t. But Alask a was bypasse d on all such 

great projects and needs to catch up.

In the field of m ining , it is i nte res tin g and pe rti ne nt th at in the first 

repo rt of Mr. Josep h Fit zgera ld, who is the Ch airm an of the Presi ­

de nt ’s Co mmittee on Alask a Develop me nt, there appeare d a map 

which showed Alaska, nei ghb oring Yukon Te rri tory, and Ca na da , 

and the up pe r th ird of Br itish Colum bia, the par t which is opposite 

so uthe aster n Alaska. On this ma p were ma rks to ind ica te the ma jor 

min ing pro spe cts.

In Alaska there were 7; in Yu kon Te rri tory, in a mu ch smaller a rea, 

there wrere 19; and in the up pe r th ird of Br itish Co lum bia there w ere 

30. In othe r words, there were 30 and 19, or 49 to 7, ye t wr

ith the 

bas ically sam e geologic str uc ture. Th e difference bet we en the 

Ca na dian ac tiv ity and success and Alask a’s in ac tiv ity lies in different 

Fe deral policy.

As we disc overed when we we nt to Wh itehorse to consu lt with the 

Ca nadia n au tho rities —a nd I had wi th me th e three to p officials of the 

In terio r Dep ar tm en t dea ling wi th mining, Mr. Cor dell Moore, the 

Assistan t Secre tar y in charg e of min erals, Mr. William T. Pecora, 

head of th e Geological Surve y, and Dr. W alt er Hi bb ard, Di rector of 

th e Bu rea u of Mine s, all rec ently appoint ed—there is a great field in 

which Alaska has lagged far behind and where its great mining potentia l 

aw aits a m ore e nlightened Federal policy. I am hopeful t hat we ma y 

now have it.

In th e m at te r of lands , we have a ve ry confu sed sit ua tio n. We ha ve 

more pub lic land in Alask a th an in all th e res t of th e Union. It s 

uti liz ati on by the S tate as pro vided in th e Sta teh ood Act is b eing h eld 

up by two Federal agencies, one th e In terio r Dep ar tm en t, which has 

blocked th e distr ibu tio n of land s on th e basis th at St at e sele ctio n 

conflicts wi th Ind ian claim s, bu t has don e no thi ng to resolv e the m, 

and th e Fores t Service, wdiich is crea tin g some difficu lty in letti ng the 

St ate ha ve th e lan ds wrhich it is en titled to un de r th e State ho od Ac t 

from th e 21 million acres of n ationa l f ore sts in Alaska. And so it goes.

So Alaska has a grea t po tential for the In terior Dep ar tm en t, and 

I am hop eful th at as soon as possible you will hav e an op po rtu nity to 

go up the re and look the situation over.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 7

This is not just in Alaska’s interest, but it is in the national interest. 

Alaska, having been admitted so late to statehood, has lagged far 

behind and the basic problem there is the problem of catching up and 

bringing Alaska to a level of equality in the development of its resources with the other States of the Union.

I know that, because of your great knowledge in the field of power, 

you will be concerned with the fact tha t so very little of it has been 

developed in Alaska. Yet we have the greatest undeveloped power 

potential under the American flag. Rampart Dam on the Yukon will 

have an installed capacity of 5 million kilowatts, greater than Grand 

Coulee, until the latest development there.

It is estimated by the Corps of Engineers that Ram part will produce power at 2 mills a kilowatt-hour, at the bussbar. The Corps of 

Engineers has spent over $1 million in preparing its study and is ready 

to go. But its report has been held up for over a year in the Department of the Interior, which has the obligation to contribute its report 

to the corps. I hope you will do something about that. There is no 

reason why this should not be acted upon and Congress given the 

opportunity to make its own studies after the Corps of Engineers report is available.

So I look forward to having you come to Alaska as soon as it is 

convenient for you and looking at all its many problems. I know you 

will enjoy your visit there because we have one of the most if not the 

most beautiful State in the Union.

Thank you.

Mr. Luce. Thank you, Senator Gruening. I hope in the late spring 

or early summer of 1967 to spend a week or so in Alaska and learn 

firsthand the problems as well as the opportunities of th at State , and 

to learn better the role tha t the Dep artm ent of the Interior can play 

in assisting the State in its development.

Senator Gruening. I would say tha t we have on our committee 

several members who are extremely expert in Alaskan matters.

The former chairman of the committee, Senator Clinton Anderson, 

was the reconstructor of Alaska’s economy after the disastrous earth ­

quake. Back in 1950 he conducted the first hearing on statehood 

for the Senate by special request of President Truman. He led the 

statehood fight in one of the various atteimpts tha t were made.

Subsequently, the chairman of the committee was in charge of the 

statehood bill when it was finally passed, so he is extremely knowledgeable on the subject of Alaska.

I know they share my views about the importance of Alaska in 

the national picture.

Both the chairman and former chairman are recipients of honorary 

degrees from the University of Alaska, which is testimony of our appreciation of their interest in Alaska and their concern over it.

The Chairman. The distinguished Senator from Alaska is very 

generous.

As I recall, when I came to Alaska to get the honorary degree 

the distinguished Senator was then Governor, and I teased him by 

saying tha t I understood I was the first non-Eskimo to receive such 

an honor from the University of Alaska.

Thank you.

Senator Fannin.

Senator Fannin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Mr. Luce, it was a pleasure to have had the opportunity to visit with 

you in my office a couple of days ago. I was very impressed with the 

answers you gave to me on some of the questions I asked of you.

After our visit, I did obtain a circular, No. A-76, which was referred 

to in our conversation, with regard to the policy for acquiring commercial or industrial products and services for Government use.

When we had our visit, 1 expressed concern tha t you might be 

interested in the competition tha t exists many times between the 

Federal Government and private industry. I do have a few questions 

I would like to ask you at this time.

How do you feel about the matter of Government participation hi 

commercial and industrial activities?

Mr. L uce. I think as a general principle, Senator Fannin, tha t 

where private industry can do the job best and serve the public 

interest to the best advantages, it ought to do so. Ordinarily, tha t 

will be the case.

Senator Fannin. We discussed several different instances where I 

felt tha t the Government had entered into competition with free 

enterprise. One was TVA on commercial fertilizers, for instance.

I thought it was a little farfetched for the Federal Government to 

be in the fertilizer business.

We also discussed the microwave communications services of the 

Bureau of Reclamation. At tha t time you told me that some of our 

industries in the State of Arizona also had services tha t were in 

competition though I don’t think that compares with what we were 

discussing in relationship to what you told me about the services in 

which you were involved a t Bonneville.

I would like to have you express your thoughts in tha t regard.

Mr. Luce. As I see it, the question of microwave service for power 

system control for the Bureau of Reclamation and the Bonneville 

Power Administration electric systems, and, indeed, for the TVA 

system, is not peculiarly a question of whether the Government will 

provide its own services or buy them in the commercial market. The 

problem is far more complicated than that.

In the operation of an electric power system nowadays, where you 

connect together many generating plants with high voltage and high 

capacity transmission lines, it is necessary that tha t system be controlled by virtually instantaneous switching. If something goes wrong 

at one point on the system, instantly remedial measures are instituted 

at other points on the system, so th at the lights stay on and reliability 

of electric service is protected.

At the Bonneville Power Administration, with which I am most 

familiar, we have provided, ever since 1948, after World War II, when 

microwave first came on the market, our own backbone microwave 

grid to conduct the switching and system control operations.

In doing so, we have followed the practice of every other utility of 

the size and complexity of Bonneville Power Administration, so far 

as I know.

I know personally of Pacific Gas & Electric Co., and the Southern 

California Edison Co., which are the two utilities on the west coast 

tha t have generating capacity comparable to th at of Bonneville Power 

Administration. Both of these utilities, like Bonneville, have their 

own backbone microwave service for this system control purpose.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 9

The Bonneville Power Administration does utilize the telephone 

service for, you might say, the subsidiary control problems other 

tha n the backbone problems. We lease wire service from the telephone company, and we use other services for which we pay the telephone company about $300,000 or $350,000 a year in billings. I know 

that Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison do likewise.

I think in the Senator’s home State, the Arizona Public Service has 

its own microwave system, and the Salt River project has its own microwave system.

The Chairman. May I interrupt right there, Mr. Luce?

It is my understanding the microwave system was discussed before 

the Appropriations Committee. The course outlined by you before 

that committee was supported by the utilities as a proper method of 

operation. Is that not correct?

Mr. Luce. Th at is correct, as to utilities involved in the Pacific 

intertie system.

The Chairman. That is what I was referring to.

Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison, and the city of 

Los Angeles would be the principal ones in the south.

Mr. Luce. Th at is correct.

The Budget document to which Senator Fannin refers, A-76, I 

thin k is its current title, deals generally with the procurement of 

goods and services by the Federal Government.

Senator Fannin. I think it goes further than tha t. It says the 

guidelines in this circular are in furtherance of the Government’s 

internal policy of relying upon the p rivate enterprise system to supply 

its needs. I think t hat goes further than what you mentioned. The 

services would include what you were talking about.

I feel tha t private enterprise can supply those services, and should 

supply those services, and, all other things being equal, I feel the 

Government should rely on private enterprise for goods and services. 

Is that your feeling?

Mr. Luce. I would certainly agree, all other things being equal, 

Senator Fannin. Of course, we do most of our procurement of goods 

and services through private channels, through commercial channels.

The question with respect to microwave is whether all other things 

are equal. Wha t I was pointing out was that our procurement 

practices in microwave are similar to those of private utilities of comparable size and complexity.

With respect to the Bureau of Reclamation, about which you 

also asked, my understanding is that in some areas they do use the 

microwave services of the telephone companies, for example in the 

Missouri Basin. In other areas, they have their own microwave, 

and in still other areas, they have a mixed system where they own 

some of their own microwave and use the telephone services for the 

balance.

I would point out, however, th at the Bureau of Reclamation has no 

one system that approaches in size or complexity that of the Bonneville Power Administration. 1 think the largest system they have, as 

an integrated system, is something of the neighborhood of 2 or 2% 

million kilowatts.

The Bonneville system is some 7 million kilowatts, and under 

construction are anoth er 8 million kilowatts. It is an immense 

system, and we have to be certain that we provide reliable electric
10 INTERIOR NOMINATION

service. If we don’t do that up in the Northwest, the lights can go 

out in Phoenix, Ariz. As a matter of fact, tha t happened not long ago.

Senator Fannin. Of course, when the Federal Government enters 

into contracts or arrangements for T elsta r and projects of that magnitude surely they could enter into a contract with private enterprise 

to take care of these items.

I understood that this circular was issued at the request of the 

President to avoid a furtherance of these activities, and to curtail 

some of them tha t are now in existence. Is tha t your understanding?

Mr. Luce. It is not our understanding as regards the procurement 

of microwave service, tha t A-76 was intended to change the existing 

policies which were previously stated in another Budget circular, 

which I think is called 60-2.

Neither of these Budget circulars mentions microwave as such. 

They deal generally with the procurement or purchasing of goods 

and services.

Senator Fannin. You brought up the subject of microwave when 

we were talking the other day, so I was using that as an example, but 

there are many other instances.

What criteria would you apply to make these decisions as to whether 

or not they should be contracted for or whether they should be done 

by the Federal Government?

Mr. Luce. The general criteria are those set forth in this Budget 

document, A-76, and they, in turn, are simply trying, I think, to 

define the public interest in procurement.

I might say tha t most of our procurement is done through private 

channels. For example, all of our equipment is purchased from General Electric, Westinghouse, or other electrical manufacturers.

We do virtually no constructing of our own. Th at is, the towers,, 

the substations, the other electric properties that the Bonneville 

Power Administration constructs are constructed by private industry, 

by contractors under competitive bidding procedures.

I suppose 90 or 95 percent of our construction activity is actually 

done by private enterprise. We do very little of it ourselves.

Senator Fannin. Circular A-76 calls for an inventory of all commercial services by June 30, 1966. Can you tell me how many such 

activities are in the Bonneville Power Administration and are to be 

included in the overall inventory?

Mr. Luce. I believe that inventory is for 1967. I think the 

inventory is now in the process of preparation.

Senator Fannin. June 30, 1966, to be included in the inventory by 

that date.

Mr. I jUCE. Mr. Toman, who is the very able Washington manager 

for the Bonneville Power Administration, tells me the Senator is 

correct, that it was June 30, 1966, and we did prepare such an inventory and submitted it to the Bureau of the Budget.

Senator Fannin. From the conversation 1 had with you the other 

day, I assume you are very much in favor of carrying through the 

criteria set down by Circular No. A-76.

Mr. Luce. Yes, sir. It is the policy of the Administration, and I 

do my best to carry it out.

Senator Fannin. Fine. Thank you very much.

The Chairman. Senator Burdick.
INTE RIOR NOMINATION 11

Senator B urd ick. Mr. Ch air ma n, I am del ighted th at Mr. Luce 

has been nomi nated , and 1 am eq ual ly delighte d th at he has c onsen ted 

to serve in this capacity.

As you know, Mr. Ch air man, Mr. Luc e comes from th at forwardlook ing complex of North Dak ota, Minn eso ta, Wisconsin, where a lot 

of good thin gs came from during the years . I am certa inl y in fav or 

of his confirmation.

I would like to ask a bo ut two things, Mr. Luce.

Th e chairma n referred to yo ur work in the applicat ion and use of 

direct curre nt for long dis tan ce transm ission. Wh ere are we in this 

field, and what should we expec t in the futur e?

Mr. L uc e. Bonne ville Power Ad mi nis tra tio n, in coo per ation with 

the city of Los Angeles, the So uthern Califo rnia Edison Co. and 

the Bu rea u of Re cla mati on is building the firs t two high voltag e 

direct cu rre nt lines ever to be co nstru cte d in the U nited S tat es. The se 

lines will ext end from a po int on the no rth near Th e Dalles, Oreg., to 

Los Angeles an d to Ho ov er Dam. T hat is, one of the lines goes from 

Th e Dalles to Los Angeles, an d the othe r goes from Th e Dalles to 

Ho over Dam.

Ea ch of the lines will b e ab ou t 815 to 820 m iles long. Each of them 

will be opera ted at 800,000 volts at the sen ding end and 750,000 volts 

at the receiving end. Ea ch will have a ca pa city of ab ou t 1,300,000 

kilow atts, a very larg e capacit y.

Th e rec tifi cat ion eq uip ment has been the bo ttleneck in dev elopin g 

direct cu rre nt transm ission in the world. How ever, in 1952 or 1954 

the Swedes developed a hi gh v oltage rec tifier. As a m at te r of fac t, the 

eq uip men t th at will be ins talled on the lines 1 have ju st des crib ed to 

the comm itte e is bein g co nstru cte d largely in Sweden by a jo in t 

ve ntur e con sisting of the ASEA Co. and the Gener al Elect ric Co. of 

the Un ite d State s.

We foresee man y othe r appli cat ion s in the Un ite d St ates for dir ect 

cu rre nt, other th an these pioneering lines. We think th at no t only 

will the re be othe r long dis tan ce dire ct cu rren t lines—for examp le, one 

is cu rre ntly pro posed from the Newr Yo rk metropo litan are a to the 

Pro vin ce of Quebec—but we think th at there will b e local appli cat ion s 

for dir ect cu rre nt, because as the pric e comes dowm on rec tifica tion 

eq uip me nt, it will be desirab le, we think , to use overland and un de rgro und cables, carry ing direct cu rre nt, tra ns po rti ng int o our metro ­

po litan areas larg e supplie s of electri cal energy.

Fo r certa in electrical reasons, it is mu ch sim ple r to tra ns mit electric ity undergr ound or un de rw ater by direct cu rre nt th an it is by 

alt erna tin g cu rre nt.

Th ere is a lo t of concern in the Un ite d State s, and indeed all over the 

we ste rn par t of the wor ld, ab ou t the est hetic s of transm ission lines 

clut tering th e la ndsca pes in su bu rban an d metr op oli tan areas.

I think th at if we could look ahead 15 or 20 years, we wo uld see m ore 

and more applicat ion s of dire ct c urrent to pu t these lines u nderg round 

in such area s, or to use less obtru siv e single cables abo ve ground.

Se na tor Burdic k. Wo uld it be a fair stat em en t to say th at in the 

ne xt 15 to 20 years we can look forward to a feasible transm ission line 

carry ing cu rre nt 1,000 miles?

Mr. L uce. I think we have th at techno logy now, Se nator Bu rdi ck. 

It happens we are only sen ding it 820 miles, bu t the sam e eq uip ment 

cou ld send it 1,000 miles.
12 INTERIOR NOMINATION

Senator Burdick. I have a vested interest. The western half of 

North Dakota is underlaid with lignite coal, and to date, in all due 

respect to my colleague from New Mexico, on-site lignite production 

is the cheapest production available. Do you agree?

Mr. Luce. I am not an expert in this field. I can discuss hydro 

economics bu t must leave mine mouth generation to others.

Senator Burdick. It seems to be cheaper than hydro. From all the 

facts and figures we get, it is even cheaper than atomic production.

Anyway, it would be a great boon to our State if we could master 

this transmission system.

Mr. Luce. In the States of New Mexico, Nevada, and probably 

soon in the southern part of the State of Utah, a combination of public 

and privately owned utilities called WEST are building large minemoutli generation plants utilizing coal deposits in bringing tha t electricity into the metropolitan load centers, principally in southern 

California, with high voltage alternating current lines operating at 

500,000 volts.

There is no reason that direct current could not be used for a similar 

purpose with respect to either the coal deposits or lignite deposits.

Senator Burdick. Now, a more common ailment in our part of the 

country: Are you aware of the deterioration of fresh water lakes in the 

Minnesota-Wisconsin-North Dako ta area?

Mr. Luce. I was made aware of it, Senator, in our conversation 

yesterday.

Senator Burdick. We have a relatively new country out there. 

Eighty-five years ago, a man by the name of Custer was killed in wild, 

virgin territory, and now we see fresh water lakes becoming marshy. 

These fresh water lakes have great recreation potential.

I realize tha t pollution is a problem in the Great Lakes and in a 

great many of our streams, and other places, but the fresh water lakes 

are now being attacked.

When you undertake your duties on this new job, would you look 

kindly upon some kind of project tha t might save fresh water lakes?

Mr. Luce. I am sure Secretary Udall’s policies would be to do 

whatever he could in that direction.

Lakes are, as I understand it, from a geological standpoint, a rather 

temporary phenomenon. The average age of a lake, as I recall my 

college geology, is around 10,000 years. But mankind, by enriching 

the water with plant food, can greatly shorten the lives of lakes by 

setting up a cycle where you get plan t growth, and then the plants 

dies and sink to the bottom amd more plants grow, and gradually the 

lake becomes a bog.

I think p art of the water pollution control job tha t we have at the 

Department of the Interior will be to try to preserve, at least as far 

as nature intended, these fresh water lakes.

Senator Burdick. I wish you well in your new responsibilities for 

the many years you have ahead of you.

Mr. Luce. Thank you.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Burdick.

Senator McGovern.

Senator McGovern. Mr. Chairman I just want to say tha t I think 

we are fortunate to have a man of Mr. Luce’s ability and intelligence 

moving into this post.
INTERIOR NOMINATION 13

I just want to ask one question as to what you see as the timetable 

and the feasibility of developing an intertie system tha t might enable 

us to secure more efficient use of the electric power from our various 

basin systems.

Mr. Luce. Senator McGovern, I would not have any predictions 

tha t would go beyond those of the national power survey which was 

compiled and published by the Federal Power Commission within 

the last 18 months or 2 years.

That study foresaw, first of all, the rapid development of large 

regional power systems in which the various independently owned 

utilities, both public and private, would be strongly interconnected 

and would coordinate their operations.

The same Federal Power Commission national power survey also 

contemplated tha t these regional systems would then in turn be 

interconnected, so tha t by 1980 or 1985 we would have a truly national power system, although we would preserve the independent 

ownerships of the components of this system.

Surely at the Department of the Interior it is our policy, and has 

been the policy during Secretary Udall’s term as head of the Department, to strive actively to preserve the independence of the utilities 

of the country, and at the same time to encourage them to interconnect and coordinate in the interest of more efficient and more 

reliable operations.

This national power survey did foresee ultimately a number of long 

high voltage lines, some of them direct current, many of them alternating current, connecting the various time zones of the United States, 

connecting the various temperature zones of the United States, so 

that the diversities of load characteristics could be taken advantage 

of and thereby we could reduce the total investment in generating 

facilities that is required to meet the electric needs of the country.

Senator McGovern. Than k you very much.

The Chairman. Senator Nelson.

Senator Nelson. 1 was very pleased to hear Senator Anderson say 

that he was completely happy with this appointment.

Senator Anderson is one of the distinguished public servants of this 

century and having served such a length of time on this committee’ 

anyone he is completely happy with has to be quite a fellow.

The Chairman. Well thank you very much.

I have received letters from the Northwest Public Power Association 

and the Southwestern Power Administration endorsing Mr. Luce. 

They will be included at this point.

(The letters referred to follow:)

Northwest P ublic P ower Association,

Vancouver, Wash., September 1, 1966. Hon. Henry M. J ackson,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator J ackson: We wish to endorse and suppor t Senate confirmation 

of Mr. Charles F. Luce to be Under Secretary of the Inte rior.

The Association’s views may best be expressed by the enclosed citation for the 

Award for Distinguished Service which the Association presented to Mr. Luce on 

March 11, 1966.

Sincerely,

Gus Norwood, 

Executive Secretary.
14 INTERIOR NOMINATION

[Enclosure]

Award for Distinguished Service

citation

The Northw est Public Power Association is honored to present the Award 

For Distinguished Service to Charles F. Luce for personal dedication and ou tstan ding public service.

Since undertaking his duties as Admin istrator of the Bonneville Power Administration, Mr. Luce has provided great leadership and negotiative ability 

in revitalizing the operations of the U.S. Columbia River Power System.

In the brief span of our years his list of impressive achievem ents includes (1) 

assisting in the negotiation of the Columbia River Treaty; (2) facilitating the 

legislative and contractual arra ngemen ts leading to the construction of the 

Hanford atomic power generating station; (3) developing the program of west 

coast interties and providing the leadership to win approval of Congress for their 

construction; (4) adopting a system wide payout and acco unting plan for the 

U.S. Columbia River Power System; and (5) adva ncing the extension of Bonneville power into southern Idaho.

These four years have been the most dynamic in the 28-year history of the 

Bonneville Power Administration. In recognition and appreciation for these 

achievements and leadership of Mr. Luce, the Northw est Public Power Association is proud to present this award.

U.S. Department of the I nterior, 

Southwestern Power Administration,

Tulsa, Okla., September 8, 1866.

Senator Henry M. J ackson,

Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs,

U.S. Senate, Washington, I).C .

Dear Senator J ackson: I was delighted to learn th at Pre sident Johnson has 

nominated Mr. Charles F. Luce, Adm inistrator, Bonneville Powe r Adm inistration, as Undersecretary of the Interior. In my opinion, Mr. Luce is eminently 

qualified by chara cter, ability and experience for this im porta nt position, and I 

am sure all of Interior will benefit from his leadership.

During some thirty years service in the Department of the Interior, I have 

been privileged to serve under many Secretaries, Undersecretaries and Assistant 

Secretaries, a nd have enjoyed close association with many of the Heads of agencies 

and bureaus. In light of this experience, and a similar association w ith Mr. Luce, 

it seemed appropriate th at my opinion be expressed to you r Committe e in the 

hope th at it will be helpful.

Sincerely yours,

Douglas G. Wright, Adm inistrator.

The Chairman. The Chair will state tha t Mr. Luce has submitted 

a financial statem ent, and in accord with the practices of the committee, we will recess now and go into executive session to question 

him in tha t regard, and to act on the nomination.

(Whereupon, at 10:55 a.m., the committee proceeded to go into 

executive session.)