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INTERIOR AND INSULAR AEEAIRS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGH TY -SEV EN TH CONGRESS

FIR ST SESSION

ON

THE NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL TO BE 

SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

JANUARY 13, 1961

Printed for the use of the Committee on I nterior a nd Ins ular Affairs

64523

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1961
COMMITTEE ON INTERIO R AND INSULAR AFF AIRS

CLINTON P. ANDERSO N, New Mexico, Chairman

HE NR Y M. JACKSON, Washington

ALAN BIBLE, Nevada

JOHN A. CARROLL, Colorado

FRA NK CHU RCH, Idaho

ERNEST GRU ENINO, Alaska

FRA NK E. MOSS, Utah

OREN E. LONG, Hawaii

QUE NTIN N. BURD ICK, North Dakota

LEE METCALF, Montana

J. J. HIC KEY, Wyoming

HENR Y DWORSIIAK, Idaho 

TIIOMAS II. KUCHEL, California 

BARRY GOLDWATE R, Arizona 

GORDON ALLOTT, Colorado 

HIRAM L. FONG, Hawaii 

JACK R. MIL LER , Iowa

Richard L. Callaghan, Staff Director

Nell D. McSherry, Clerk

Stewart French, Chief Counsel

n
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL AS SECRETARY

OF THE INTERIOR

F R ID A Y , JA N U A R Y 13, 1961

U.S. Senate,

Committee on Interior and I nsular Affairs,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, a t 11 a.m., in room 3110, New 

Senate Office Building, Senator Clinton P. Anderson (chairman of the 

committee), presiding.

Present: Senators Clinton P. Anderson, New Mexico; Henry M. 

Jackson, W ashington; Alan Bible, Nevada; John A. Carroll, Colorado; 

Frank Church, Idaho; Ernest Gruening, Alaska; Frank E. Moss, 

Utah; Oren E. Long, Hawaii; Lee Metcalf, Montana; Quentin N. 

Burdick, North Dak ota; Henry C. Dworshak, Idaho; Thomas H. 

Kuchel, California; Barry Goldwater, Arizona; Gordon Allott, Colorado; Hiram L. Fong, Hawaii; Jack Miller, Iowa; and J. J. Hickey, 

Wyoming.

Also present: Senator Carl Hayden, Arizona.

The C hairman. The committee will be in order.

The meeting this morning was called to have a preliminary discussion with the individual designated to be Secretary of the Interior. 

Naturally, this would ordinarily wait until the name could be presented 

to the Senate, but since there has been a leak and we have a little bit 

of information of who it might be, I thought it would be easier to go 

ahead and have a preliminary hearing and discussion, and then after 

the nomination has come to the Senate, action might be taken.

I have waited a while in the hope tha t Senator Goldwater or Senator 

Hayden might be here for some preliminary statement, but in their 

place may I say to you, Mr. Udall, that we are pleased to have you 

over here. We are happy to have you before us. There has been 

established a fairly firm rule of friendship between congressional 

bodies, and I am sure tha t will extend to you.

I hope there will be some questions asked, and some comments made, 

but before we get into that, we are honored this morning by the 

presence of the dean of the U.S. Senate, a man who has, I think, 

represented his State in the Congress of the United States longer than 

any individual, now in the Congress at least, and a man who is 

admired and loved by all of us and revered by every person who 

watches his work. Therefore, without any furth er preliminaries, I 

will call upon Senator Carl Hayden for such statement as he cares 

to make.

Senator Hayden. I just came, Mr. Chairman, to co rCuthehd &V, 

committee the nomination to be made by the Presidenkdfcfiie Secretary 

of the Interior. I have known him all of his life. / I knew his very? 

distinguished father, who was chief justice of the Supreme C ourt1-
2 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. TJDALL

the State of Arizona, for a long, long, time and I was well acquainted 

with his grandfather, and I want to tell you Udalls are good people. 

They are very proud of the fact t ha t he has received this nomination. 

I cannot conceive of anyone bette r qualified to be Secretary of the 

Interior than Stewart Udall.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hayden.

I think we will let you go ahead, Mr. Secretary, and make any 

statements you care to make at this time before the committee.

STATEMENT OF HON. STEWART L. UDALL, SECRETARY OF THE 

INTERIO R-DESIG NATE

Mr. Udall. Senator, if I may, in response to the kind words of 

my mentor, Senator Hayden, I would like to say he has always told 

me, and he was serving in the Congress when I was born, and I have 

always heeded his words, th at you never get into trouble if you listen, 

and my statement as a result will be very brief here. I, of course, am 

greatly honored to serve the new President and the new administration. I also consider and hope tha t I have something of a running 

sta rt with my job, having served on the House committee, having 

come from a Western State tha t touches nearly all of the problems 

of the Department, and above all, having had 6 years of school here 

with people like Senator Hayden and Congressman W avne Aspinall, 

my chairman on the House side, and Senator Anderson, the chairman 

here. Having worked closely with and advised and counseled with 

such gentlemen, I feel that this is one of the few strong points tha t 

1 could bring to mv task. I realize we have many challenges in 

this area. I am cognizant also of the fact tha t my President and my 

party are pledged to some new programs.

1 am here today to answer any questions concerning mv qualifications and fitness and I think, if the committee will allow me, 

tha t tha t will be all the statement I will have at this time, Mr. 

Chairman.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Secretary, 1 got a wire this morning, and other members of the 

committee told me they have the same wire so it will come up eventually, from Gus Norwood, who is the executive secretary of the 

Northwest Public Power Association,1

 which reads this way:

We respectfully pro test appointme nt of Dominy as Commissioner—

I assume Commissioner of Reclamation—

because of his single-purpose attit ud e toward irrigation at the expense of power 

users and power development. Respectfully protest confirm ation of Dominy 

because of his bias against public power, and transmission lines and because of 

his advocacy of higher power rates to subsidize irrigation projects. He has 

failed in handling problem s of Columbia Basin project, Canyon Ferry Dam, 

and upper Snake.

I realize th at you cannot or would not probably want to speak for 

Mr. Dominy. Have you had an opportunity, and if not, would you 

take the opportunity, to consult with Mr. Dominy and see if before 

he resumes his duties he has any change in his attitude against public 

power?

Mr. Udall. Well, Senator, I would say first off that I think the 

state ment you read from Mr. Norwood is, in my view, something of

1

 See telegram from Dean Barline, preside nt of Northw est Pub lic Power Association, p. 26.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 3

an overstatement. Traditionally, the Bureau of Reclamation has 

been a career service. They have a very fine group of career people. 

Mr. Dominy is a career man.

On power matters, I expect, with the help of the President and 

with my other associates, to make the policy. Mr. Dominy, by and 

large, at the level a t which he serves will, and he has assured me of 

this, loyally carry out what policies we make and he, of course, I 

assume, may appear before the committee later, but I have full confidence tha t he will serve as a loyal member of the team, and I have 

great confidence in his ability. 1 think he is one of the ablest Commissioners tha t we have had, and I think that is about all I would 

say at this time with regard to that.

The Chairman. You do have a problem in front of you of building 

a transmission line from Glen Canyon Dam. I believe there are 

those who feel that there could be a Federal line built up there that 

would take care of the preference customers. Would Mr. Dominy 

make tha t determination or would you make it?

Mr. Udall. No; this would be a Secretarial determination, and I 

might say tha t the best information tha t 1 have been able to get is 

tha t his recommendation is on the present Secretary’s desk and it is 

for Federal transmission lines.

I think that this is an indication, again, of the type of judicial 

career approach to the problem, and this is based on very intensive 

studies over the last 6 or 8 months. However, I shall make that 

decision, 1 realize, if the present Secretary does not, but it is my 

decision, not his.

The Chairman. Surrounded as I am bv people from California and 

Arizona, I hate to bring up the question of regulation of Glen Canyon 

Dam, so it will protect Hoover Dam. Will tha t decision be made by 

him or by you?

Mr. Udall. I think again this is a matter of prime importance of 

major policy. I fully expect to get the very best advice, and approach 

this matter very carefully, and to make this decision myself. It 

may be one that T might want to consult with the President himself 

on, if necessary.

The Chairman. The problem of what to do with this water is 

going to be a very difficult and perhaps delicate problem and there 

are those States in the upper basin tha t feel they want to be somewhat reassured. I understand there was a recommendation ready. 

It was held up until after the election was over, and I do not know 

exactly what is in the recommendation now. This does not seem to 

be directing questions to you very much, but Mr. Dominy was not 

very enthusiastic about some of the projects in my State under the 

upper Colorado River development. Again, would that be left to 

him, or would you be deciding whether or not we would have, for 

instance, the Navajo Indian irrigation project built?

Mr. Udall. As the Senator knows, I have been quite close to these 

problems, and I think if he would concern himself more with my 

enthusiasm than Mr. Dominy’s, and I am sure he does, th at he might 

be wise in doing tha t. I favor the fullest possible development of our 

river basins, and certainly I am hopeful tha t some of these projects 

which the Senator mentioned we can get underway as soon as possible.

The Chairman. The Senator from Arizona, Senator Goldwater, is 

here. Did you have any statement to make?
4 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

Senator Goldwater. Just a short one, Mr. Chairman, and I want 

to apologize to you and to the committee, and Mr. Udall, but the 

Labor Committee is also meeting and I have developed a slight interest 

in that field. I just wanted to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am very 

honored as an Arizonan to have been a friend of the Udall family all 

of my life and to be able to comment on the great contributions they 

have made not only to our State, but to the Nation. Stewart is ju st 

another Udall who is carrying on a family tradition of service tha t 

dates back a hundred years in the Territory of Arizona and our State.

It has been the pleasure of my family to have served with his family 

in politics, I guess as long as we have had politics out there, Stu. His 

family, fortunately, is divided about 50-50 Republican and Democrat. 

We have never had any difficulties working with the branch of the 

family tha t has not become enlightened.

I might just say tha t his grandfather, Dave Udall, who brought his 

family down from U tah to settle in what was then an untamed New 

Mexico Territory, had a great deal to do with the settlem ent of the 

Territory and the founding of the town of St. Johns, where Stewart 

was born. These men were all Mormon settlers. They were able, 

tenacious, and they were among the first white men to come into what 

is now Arizona. They created our civilization. Now there are towns and schools 

where none were in existence before, and where people thought it was 

impossible to cause them to exist. I have every confidence in Stewart 

in view of his family background and of his own personal background 

of service and of his great knowledge of our affairs in Arizona.

I remind vou, Mr. Chairman, although I do not have to, that we 

are practically run by the Department of the Interior in Arizona. 

Close to 70 percent of our land is controlled in one way or another 

by the Federal Government, and more of it by the S tate government. 

I have watched Stewart’s interest in our land problems. I have 

watched his interest in our park problems, and in our Indian problems, our reclamation problems, and I am very happy tha t he has 

been nominated by Mr. Kennedy.

I have said earlier that I thought Mr. Goldberg and Mr. I dall 

were the two outstanding appointments of Mr. Kennedy, and I am 

very pleased to be able to record my vote for you, Stu. I have no 

questions to ask you. I think I know all the answers t ha t you would 

give. We have argued about them many a time.

Mr. Chairman, 1 do apologize and, Stu, 1 apologize for having to 

leave, but I have to get back upstairs.

Mr. Udall. Thank you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. 1 do want to say to everybody th at we all recognize 

the problems with which people are working. I am supposed to be 

attending a meeting of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian. 

1 am supposed to be attending a meeting of the Finance Committee 

to consult with Mr. Dillon, one which Senator Goldwater would 

enjoy. He would enlighten people. Mr. Dillon has been a member 

of another party, and I would like to examine him carefully, but I 

am here. We have to be all these places, but we all understand it 

and I appreciate your coming down.

Senator Goldwater. Thank you.

The Chairman. Now in accordance with tradition, we will start 

out with Mr. Dworshak to ask questions.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 5

Senator Dwohshak. Getting away from this splendid start, with 

unusual bipartisan support, and I presume, Mr. Udall, tha t you are 

not going to have much difficulty, there are two or three areas tha t 

I would like to explore briefly. We have been speculating recently over newspaper publicity in 

regard to the announcements of appointees for the various new jobs 

and particularly the Department of the Interior, but I notice there 

has been no reference to a Secretary for Mineral Resources. Now, 

at the present time we have four Assistant Secretaries. They are 

listed as one for W ater and Power, one for Public Land Management, 

one for Mineral Resources, and one for Fish and Wildlife. So far as 

you know, is there any plan to eliminate any of them, particularly 

this secretaryship for Mineral Resources?

Mr. Udall. There is not, Senator, and unfortunately, some member 

of the press, wittingly or unwittingly, made it appear tha t there was 

such a plan. There is not. The names that were announced yesterday simply were those who were ready. This is a very vital assistant 

secretaryship. Some very urgent problems must be handled by it 

and I hope we can find someone of first-rate competence to fill that 

post.

Senator Dworshak. Of course, coming from Arizona, you do 

appreciate the importance of the extractive industries to the West 

and I am sure tha t you will give very careful consideration to that 

aspect of the work which you will supervise. I would like to ask 

along tha t same line what your views are on the possible multiplepurpose uses of the public domain. For instance, we have had for the last couple of years before this 

committee, and I presume also before your committee on the House 

side, the question of establishing a new program for wilderness areas. 

We have had some controversies over whether the emphasis should 

be placed upon the recreational development of our public domain, 

or whether we should continue in the future the basic principle which 

we have followed for many years in the multiple uses of our public 

domain. Do you care to make any comment on that?

Mr. Udall. Senator, I think that the multiple-uses concept is a 

wise one and that we should apply it wherever practical. I am also 

hopeful, however, tha t the Congress will be wise enough to view some 

kind of wilderness program. I think that there are many of the 

wilderness areas tha t are so rough and rugged that it would be almost 

impossible to get back in and harvest timber, for example, so I do 

not see the two as being irreconcilable, and 1 hope tha t we can be 

wise enough to apply the multiple-use concept wherever possible, and 

also to have some type of wilderness system.

Senator Dworshak. You do recognize the need of multiple-purpose 

development because the Government owns the timber and supervises 

the potential development which is vital to the economies of the 

communities and the areas in which these public lands are located, 

and you do plan to give careful consideration to that multiple-purpose 

development?

Mr. Udall. I place great emphasis on its importance.

The Chairman. Senator Jackson?

Senator J ackson. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry I was a little late in 

getting here. I was detained at another meeting. I just merely 

want to say tha t I have known Mr. Udall since he first came to Con-
6 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

gross. I have a very high regard for him. He certainly knows the 

problems of the West and the great challenge that he will face as Secretary of the Interior, and I am confident tha t he will make an excellent Secretary and he has mv full confidence.

The Chairman. Senator Kuchel?

Senator Kuchel. Mr. Udall, I do not have the pleasure of knowing you as well personally as I do by your reputation. You enjoy a 

splendid reputation among your former colleagues in the House of 

Representatives. I also know of the reputation which you bear and 

which your family name bears in Arizona. You have been an effective and very able Representative of your great sovereign State.

You now assume a responsibility tha t is not statewide in character. 

You now represent the Government of the United States. My colleague, the chairman of this committee, indicated tha t speaking for 

himself and the upper basin area in the Colorado River system, he 

wanted assurances. I am sure without attem pting to place words in 

his mouth he meant assurances of fairness. Tha t is all I can ask.

However, I want this record to indicate your answer. My people 

are neighbors of yours. Much of my family lives in your State. My 

people have the same basic problems for the future of an adequate 

water supply placed to beneficial use, which the good people of Arizona 

do. Your State and mine are involved in a controversy and the controversy is where it ought to be, across the stree t in the judicial 

branch of the Government.

Jt would be completely unethical for me to ask, or for you to answer 

any questions concerning that lawsuit, but having said all that, can 

you for this record indicate your own basic philosophy, your own 

basic judgment, as an administrator of a department of Government 

of the most extreme importance to the people of the West, and the 

people of America with respect to unquestionably what will be controversies between sovereign States and most particularly now in the 

area of the Colorado River system?

Mr. Udall. Senator, I think this is a question tha t is most proper 

and I think you are entitled to a very candid answer. As a Congressman—and may I sav it was never my privilege in the 6 years 

on the House side, to vote for any Arizona water projects—I sat side 

by side with Congressman Sisk of your State and helped him for 6 

years nurse along a major project. I helped Senator Engle with the 

Trin ity project. My general philosophy is tha t of favoring full and 

comprehensive basin development in all of the basins of this country.

It shall be my approach as Secretary, as I have tried to make it 

as Congressman, to be colorblind as far as State lines are concerned 

and I think where it is once ascertained tha t a State has certain water 

rights, its projects, which are economically feasible can be designed, 

I would hope, for all men wherever they live, if they believe in resource development, and reclamation would support such sound 

projects. This has been my approach to California projects. 1 take 

some satisfaction in the fact tha t 1 was one of the yeomen in the second rank on the Upper Colorado project. Indeed, the great unit of 

the Upper Colorado project, Glen Canyon Dam, is being built in my 

district, so tha t is my general attitude and may I say, I was most 

pleased, and indeed i satisfied myself on this point before I recommended him to the President, tha t my newly designated Under Secretary, Mr. Carr, of your State, shares this attitude and shares it wholly.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 7

Senator Kuchel. Indeed he does and may I say, perhaps ir­ relevantly here, that I am delighted th at a citizen whom I have known for a long time and whom I have tremendous respect for will be asso­ ciated with you in this Department. Therefore, it is fair to say that in those decisions which you will have to make, when one of the results may be less water than is necessary, you will be guided by the law anti by a fairness in your judgment and in your recommendations.

Mr. Udall. I shall make every effort to be as judicial as possible in these matters. I think 1 must bend over backwards almost where my own State is concerned in these matters in our basin and I cannot stress too heavily my deep commitment to the judicial approach.

Senator Kuchel. I think those were wise and excellent answers which you gave. I do not belong to your political party, and I sit on the Republican side of the aisle, but the people of my State, Repub­ licans and Democrats alike, are totally indebted to the Federal Government for what it has done over the years. We would not have the economy th at we enjoy today in California had it not been for Hoover Dam, the Central Valley project, and other great multiple- purpose projects and I look forward as an American and as a Cali­ fornian to endeavoring to assist your department in compiling a 

record of constructive services to the people.

Mr. Udall. 1 thank you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. Just so the record does not get topheavy, I think we ought to point out as soon as a man from Arizona was picked California began making sure it had a top-ranking official. Now, there is as much at stake as between the States of the upper division and the lower division as there is between Arizona and California, and we just hope sometimes we can get some of the crumbs t hat fall from the master’s table. Thus far nobody has been announced from Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, which are States of the upper 

division.

Mr. Udall. May I say, Senator, although on the map there is only a slight slice to show on it, tha t I regard myself as being in both places.

The Chairman. But the water tha t will come from little Navajo 

into the Colorado is small in quantity and poor in quality.

Senator Kuchel. Will the chairman yield for a moment?

The Chairman. Yes.

Senator Kuchel. Is it not a fact tha t the Under Secretary of the 

Interior-designate was recommended to the President by you, sir?

Mr. Udall. Yes; I made the recommendation, and there were sev­ eral other very fine candidates and may I say that my approach was that of the new President, of trying to get what I thought was the best man. This is a tough decision, but I do not think the State of origin thing should be the important thing in these matters.

The Chairman. Now we move to the third State of the lower division, Mr. Bible?

Senator Bible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very happy to welcome Congressman Udall and I look forward to working with him as the Secretary of the Interior, as 1 am sure he will be confirmed. I think this was a splendid appointment and so said at the time it was announced. I am very happy to follow my distinguished friend from California.

64 523—^61------ 2
8 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

I have noticed up to now we have been constantly talking about 

the problems between Arizona and California as far as the division 

of the waters of the Colorado are concerned and the power divisions, 

but 1 remind you, and I am certain you are very well aware of it, that 

Nevada has a real stake in the Colorado and the lower basin as well. 

We have a real stake in the power tha t is generated or will be generated 

at Glen Canyon and I am delighted with the response that you made 

to Senator Kuchel as to your guidance in these very, very involved 

and critical matters and I would like to probe your thinking for 

a moment on one allied problem.

For a number of years, there have been varying forms of bills 

introduced in the Senate and in the House of Representatives relative 

to the construction of Bridge Canyon Dam. Now I am wondering, 

because it does represent a matter of philosophy, whether you have 

given any thought as to whether this should be constructed as a 

Federal dam, as an integral part of the complete development of the 

Colorado, or whether it should possibly be developed as a straight 

project, which is inherent in the application before the Federal Power 

Commission, or just exactly how it should be developed. This is 

an integral part of the full development of the Colorado.

Mr. Udall. Senator, let me first make two statements with regard 

to the question.

One is that in any of the great river basins where once we undertake 

to harness these rivers—for example, on the Colorado we have Hoover; 

we have another great structure, Glen; we have Flaming Gorge— 

the river is in the process of being harnessed, it does seem to me th at 

with the idea of basinwide development in order to have any type 

of unified control and operation of the river, and after all, you cannot 

produce the maximum power uidess it is done with a unified operation, 

of necessity once you undertake projects of this magnitude you have, 

if you are going to do it the Federal route, Federal control and direction 

on these matters and I do think it is most unfortunate, and perhaps 

we should remedy this by law, tha t we have the Federal Power 

Commission sometimes going off in one direction and we have the 

Congress, in authorizing projects, going off in another.

Right now, my State is interested, for example, in the site of Marble 

Canyon in Arizona and Arizona and California and Nevada are interested. I am not sure their thinking is completely sorted out in 

some type of State-sponsored project in Bridge Canyon Dam. I 

would simply say that it seems to me, whoever builds the structure, 

that we are going to have to have the thing operated as a unit and I 

think this is strong logic for Federal construction, but I am not closeminded on these matters and I think that we have to do the thing 

that is wisest and best.

Certainly it would seem to me that Congress should make most of 

these decisions, but, of course, where the Federal Power Commission 

moves in and makes a decision on a stretch of the river when both 

above and below it is already being developed according to a pattern, 

this creates very serious problems and, of course, I have no control 

over that.

Senator Bible. I appreciate your thinking along this line, Mr. 

Congressman. Let me just say this for a moment, and I want to get 

the record absolutely straight.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 9

I suppose there is no field under your jurisdiction tha t is any more 

depressed or forlorn tha n the mining industry. We have heard of long-range mining programs, at least in the 6 years tha t I have been in the Congress, a t each and every session. There are high-sounding phrases and very little, if anything, comes of them except the mines 

seem to go down more and more each year. I understood you to say tha t you are going to keep a separate Assistant Secretary in charge of mining. I think, if anything, the mining d epartment should be beefed up rather than made a stepchild as it sometimes seems to be under our past philosophy, and I would hope tha t you would give careful attention and immediate attention to attem pting to work out some of these complicated and complex mining problems. I recognize it is a difficult field, but I hope that you 

give this very, very prompt attention.

Mr. Udall. Senator, I quite agree this is a sick industry and there has been probably more talk on this in Congress and less results in recent years, unfortunately, than in almost any other area, and I hope we can bring forward some programs that will be sound and tha t can 

win the concurrence of Congress a t present.

Senator Bible. Just one further question, Mr. Chairman, and this 

lies in the area of anoth er troublesome section in the Interior D epart­ ment, and tha t is the administration, and the control, and the regula­ tion, and the sale of our public lands. I know of very few problems that I have in my State that give me more worry than our disposition 

of public lands and a sound public lands philosophy. 1 do not know whether you have formulated any philosophy in the field of public lands as yet or not, but I again would point out tha t this is an important area. It seems to me the laws are very much in need of modification, and clarification, and simplification. A person today applying for a 5-acre tra ct is lucky if he can live long enough to receive 

a pate nt from the U.S. Government, just as an example. The backlogs are tremendous in my State and they seem to be increasing, and I just hope that this is another area to which you will 

put your fine attention and get something done.

Mr. Udall. Senator, I share your feelings completely. There are many things tha t can be done administratively. It does seem to me, however, tha t the wheels have become so clogged it is almost impos­ sible for them to turn in many areas, and we may very well confront your committee after we have a chance to study it with some recom­ mendations and let you rewrite and recodify the laws in this area. It seems to me that we have to make it simple enough so that the wheels will turn, tha t it will work, and tha t we will not have the chaos we have in some areas of public lands a t the present time.

Senator Bible. Thank you, Air. Congressman. .

Senator Dworshak. Will you yield, Senator?

Senator Bible. Yes.

Senator Dworshak. I think the record should show tha t in the 

past 6 or 8 years considerable progress has been made in expediting the work of the Bureau of Land Management because the Members of Congress are fully aware of the need of bringing more prompt attention to some of these problems, and I am sure tha t every member of this committee knows, as I know, tha t the backlog has been cleared up 

materially in the past few years.
10 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

Senator Bible. They may have, in some areas. I would not join 

in that s tatement as far as my own State is concerned.

The C hairman. Senator Allott.

Senator Allott. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Udall, we welcome you. I 

must say for myself and I am sure for all the rest of us from the West, 

we are happy to see a man like yourself in prospective nomination as 

Secretary of the Interior. Like the others, I have a few questions to 

ask.

The Chairman in referring to Commissioner Dominy raised one of 

the first questions t hat I had in mind and tha t is the question of the 

future of appointees like Mr. Dominy, who has civil service status, for 

example. It has been my understanding that Mr. Woozley, who also 

has a longstanding civil service appointment in the Department may 

be moved out. 1 would like to know what your policy is going to be 

with respect to the status of people with civil service status in the 

Department.

Mr. Udall. Senator, I have not disturbed any of them as yet and 

I hope we can fill all the schedule C appointments which are available 

for policymaking people. There are some career people, even though 

I could oust, tha t I think we should keep, but I do not think t hat we 

are going to do any more violence to the civil service principle than 

has been done in previous changeovers. It may be we might find an 

area or two where we feel people are making policy or participating in 

policymaking where there should be a change or two, but I do not 

contemplate, at this moment, anything tha t I think would disturb 

the Senator.

Senator Allott. Then, I understand of course and take it for 

granted that there will be extensive changes in schedule C and lay 

positions. I would expect this and contemplate this, but generally 

speaking, it would be your attitude tha t those people who have 

achieved, over the years, a civil service status, will be completely 

and wholly protected in this?

Mr. Udall. Yes.

Mr. Allott. I would like to ask one thing about wilderness, which 

was raised here a few moments ago.

I have had more than a slight interest in tha t legislation. Do you 

feel tha t the present wilderness boundaries should be added to in 

this country? I mean considering the wilderness and canoe areas 

together, do you feel they should be enlarged? Wilderness areas 

now comprise about 8 percent of the public domain.

Mr. Udall. It seems to me what we are talking about mainly is 

not enlarging, but rather giving status to existing land. I am not an 

expansionist in that sense, bu t I think some of these areas we should 

give status to and I am hopeful tha t this committee and its counterpart on the House side can come up with something which will make 

sense. I have some ideas of my own tha t I am going to suggest, 

but some of the members of the committee here, I am sure, have 

gone into this as deeply as I have. However, I do hope that we can 

come up with wilderness legislation that will be sensible and sound 

and will give us a wilderness heritage, too, that we can pass on down 

to the next generation.

Senator Allott. In this situation would you favor retaining in 

Congress the control over the fixing of the boundaries of wilderness 

areas? To make my question clear, as opposed to doing it by
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 11

executive order by either the Secretary of tlie Interior or the Secretary of Agriculture, as the case might be, with negative action on 

the part of Congress?

Mr. Udall. Well, it seems to me tha t the present system we have 

has worked quite well and tha t the Congress certainly ought to have 

the main sav in these matters. I do not think we can deal with 

executive action, because executive action sometimes can be arbitrary. Sometimes no hearings are held on these matters and Congress 

is certainly going to want to, and should, stay in the picture in large 

measure.

Senator Allott. Now I would like to move over to the river situation again, since Gunnison River supplies about 70 percent of the 

water tha t goes into the Colorado River and the Gunnison rises in 

Colorado. We have, as you know, without being facetious, great interest in 

this situation and the development. Is there a possibility I could 

look, with perhaps the Senator from New Mexico, with just a hopeful 

gleam tha t there might be some representatives from the upper 

States in your organization?

Mr. Udall. Well, Senator, I can only say, as I said previously, and 

I was not being facetious-----

Senator Allott. I said without being facetious on my part.

Mr. Udall. Th at I regard myself in one sense as being in the upper 

basin and I think that you will find me as the chief instrum ent in 

policymaking highly sympathetic to the full development of your 

area.

Senator Allott. May I interrupt you at that point? Th at is fine.

Mr. Udall. As a matter of fact, without mentioning names, if I 

may say so, I have made overtures in recent days and came rath er 

close to doing just wha t you are suggesting within the last few days.

Senator Allott. I am sure tha t all of us of the upper basin States 

would like to get that hopeful gleam in our eyes tha t there will be a 

representative from our States on your immediate staff. Your 

remarks, of course, I suppose would include the Fryingpan?

Mr. Udall. Yes, Senator. I supported Fryingpan in the committee 

and on the floor. 1 would say, however, tha t I think Fryingpan has 

jus t one more time at bat. I think if it strikes out again, it is gone, 

and I think this is a matter of tactics and strategy, and I would like 

to be the Secretary that bells this cat, but I think the timing is 

extremely important, particularly on the House side, and I am not 

going to advocate that we pu t it at bat until we have everything in 

line.

Senator Allott. To move over to another area, the minerals 

area—this is not a loaded question, although it may sound like it.

As you know very well from your own great experience and your 

experiences in Congress, there have been two bills before the Congress 

offered by the present Secretary of the Interior, the first one based 

upon an excise tax upon imports of minerals, and the one in 1958, the 

next year, based upon subsidies. I am sure that you recall these two 

bills. The ordinary method the people assume in the protection of 

minerals is to think first in terms of tariffs, quotas,

We have been through the whole gamut of all of these

years. You are aware of the lead and zinc efforts bej 

Commission, both for quotas and tariffs. You are awafcqbf the effort
12 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

of our fluorspar people before the Tariff Commission. There has 

been an advance of what is known as a long-term minerals policy 

which involves not the direct use of subsidies, b ut looks toward the 

ultimate solution over a period of 5 years, or at least a basis for the 

solution of some of our mineral problems. May I ask if you have 

any predetermined view at this time as to what method we should 

use in attacking our minerals problems?

Mr. Udall. Senator, I do n ot and this is a matter tha t I want to 

give very close study to. I want good programs. I want sound 

programs. Naturally, these matters that affect international trade 

cut across departmental boundaries and I alone will no t make policy 

in this area with my associates, but it does seem to me that we have 

to tackle this problem head on and come up with a solution that 

makes the most sense.

Senator Allott. What might be a long-term solution would not 

necessarily be a short-term solution.

Mr. Udall. Tha t is right.

Senator Allott. You would, therefore, not close your mind or 

foreclose or preclude the possibility of an approach to the mineral 

area which might not only stabilize our own mineral industry in 

this country, but would tend to stabilize the world market in the 

industry, even though it did not involve directly the use of subsidies?

Mr. Udall. It sounds like a very sensible approach to me, Senator.

Senator Allott. One other question.

I am sure you are aware of the decision last year which, I was 

informed last spring, could ultimately involve the payment by the 

Federal Government of perhaps as much as $150 million to the 

Indian tribes of California for land taken from them some hundred 

or more years ago. Would you express for me, sir, your general 

concept as to whether or not we should continue the policy tha t we 

have with respect to Indians of treating them fraternally and treating 

them as if they still had rights against the Government for taking 

their land, or whether we should adopt a modern approach to the 

Indian question and treat them by the same standards tha t we would 

treat our other U.S. citizens?

Mr. Udall. Senator, I think we demean ourselves and them too 

if we do not tre at them by our standards, and I think we need perhaps 

above all a new approach, an approach because the psychological 

thing is very important of letting them know tha t we not only regard 

them as being the same type of human, we are, but we want to work 

with them on their problems. I think this is very important. I 

have had no quarrel with the general philosophy of the Indian Claims 

Commission, which Congress set up before I came in. I might say, 

however, tha t I think the problem there is largely our being wise 

enough in working with our Indian tribes to see to it tha t whatever 

is involved in these judgments is reinvested and spent to develop 

their resources, human and natural, and not squandered. I think 

this is the task we face. If the Senator favors the repeal of the 

Indian Claims Commission Act, you do not have my support.

Senator allott. No, I do not, Mr. Udall, but this was brought 

very forcefully to me in the Appropriations Committee. The very, 

very excessive demands of the Indians on the Yellowtail project and 

the very excessive demands of the Indians on other projects with which 

we have been confronted on this committee led me to propound that 

question.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 13

Now, would I be correct without trying to put the exact words in 

your mouth tha t your general attitude is tha t you feel we should move 

in a just and honest direction which would create for these people a 

climate in which they can become self-supporting, self-controlled, 

responsible citizens of our country?

Mr. Udall. Yes, certainly, Senator. This should be our objective.

Senator Allott. In other words, there are people who think we 

should retain the Indian and he should be entitled to stay in a dependent state and we are obligated to support him?

Mr. Udall. I have more Indians and Indian reservations than any 

other Congressman, and that has never been my philosophy, and 

I think the other thing we need to realize now with our Indian people 

is t hat in my view there is no t an Indian problem. There are 65 or 

82—or whatever the number is of Indian reservations—problems. 

Each of these Indian tribes is different. They have different problems 

and we must approach these as special and different problems and aid 

them at their level.

Senator Allott. I believe there are over 300 tribes, are there not?

Mr. Udall. There is a different number of tribes from reservations 

at the present time. I do not think there are that many, as I recall 

it, but I think we need to get more brainpower and more effort at the 

reservation level than we have had in the past. This is where we can 

really make progress, in teaching these people self-government, in 

enabling them to achieve the objectives that I think they want to 

achieve.

Senator Allott. One final question.

Would you s tate to us what your broad, general view is as to what 

the area of public power is and where the area of private power is in 

the economy which we have today?

Mr. Udall. Senator, it seems to me that we have a mixed system 

and there is an overlap and that the overlap is a very healthy one in 

many areas. I am not doctrinaire in this view. I think again we 

approach each particular problem with an open mind and determine 

what is best under those circumstances.

I might say, however, it does seem to me with the great river systems 

that we have that many of these resources are public resources and 

we need to develop them for the good of the whole Nation and not 

for the good of a small group, but I do not have a fixed view that you 

follow one plan and follow it rigidly under all circumstances. I think 

public power has been a great thing for the economy in many areas. 

I think the lower p art of the Colorado River Basin is an area where 

public and private power have existed side by side, indeed combined, 

to make the original project, the Hoover Dam, possible, so I think 

our objective as a Nation should be the maximum development of 

power resources, and in reaching that objective, I think we will have 

to have more vigorous Federal activity in some of our basins and I 

would hope tha t the private power companies, too, from their sources 

and methods will step up the production of power.

I certainly do not contemplate moving in the direction of having 

all public power in this country. I think tha t would be a general 

statement of my view.

Senator Allott. Would you feel then that while there is a place 

for public power, there is also a place for private power, and that 

they may even in certain circumstances exist side by side?
14 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

Mr. Udall. I think where you have the right attitude, and this 

has been exemplified in my State—we have an experience with it— 

tha t they can even complement each other. They can strengthen 

each other. I do not like the idea myself and never have, tha t there 

is a built-in hostility.

I think if we try to work it out so tha t both benefit we can, but I 

do not propose at any time tha t some of the great power resources 

be turned wholly to private power.

Senator Allott. 1 think that is all. Thank you very much, Mr. 

Udall, for answering my questions.

Mr. Udall. Thank you.

Senator Allott. I think you made your position on the power 

question pretty clear.

The Chairman. We have more majority members than the minority, so I am taking two a t a time from this side.

Senator Church.

Senator Church. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Udall, Idaho is not part of either the lower division or the upper 

division of the Colorado development, but is very much part of the 

Great Northwest, where, as you know, the Columbia and the Snake 

Rivers comprise one of the foremost river basins of the systems of the 

country. In both the 85th and 86th Congresses we had up for our 

consideration the Burns Creek project on the Snake River, with which 

you are familiar. It was one of the few projects to have the endorsement of the Eisenhower administration, among the new starts tha t 

were recommended by the Eisenhower administration. It was twice 

approved by this committee and, with the assistance of our distinguished chairman, it was twice enacted in the Senate. Both times 

the project came up for extensive hearings before your committee in 

the House, but until now, the House has taken no definitive action 

and the bill has never emerged from the House Interior Committee. 

I am wondering what your own attitu de might be toward this project, 

because it will again be before the Congress in this session.

Mr. Udall. Senator, as a member of the House committee and the 

House subcommittee, I spent several hours, because this was a rather 

controversial matter, trying to push the bill out of the committee. 

I have always favored it. I would hope tha t we could have this 

project underway by a year from now. 1 think it is a very fine project 

and I favor it.

Mr. Church. That is fine. I certainly appreciate your own position on it and I know tha t with your help, our chances are much 

improved to get congressional action on it this year.

On this committee, Mr. Udall, I am chairman of the Indian Affairs 

Subcommittee. I have a very great interest in the present condition 

of life for many of our Indian people. You have already been asked 

a number of questions concerning this and I will not press it now, 

except to ask this general question: Do you feel tha t it will be possible for us to come up soon with legislation tha t will generally undertake to correct the land problem, particularly the fractionated lands 

that so plague the Indian tribes, and also a sound program tha t will 

promote needed economic development on so many of these reservations 9

Much money has been spent by Congress in the past years. Much 

of it has been spread out upon the sands and little results can be seen,
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 15

but I think that the grea t need for the Indians is to solve the land 

problem satisfactorily and then get on with an economic development 

program tha t will lift their living standards to the point where they 

can become full-fledged citizens of the country, and not continue to 

be charges of the Government, and this need is so very great, and 

our tendency over the years has been to set it aside or to ignore it, 

so th at I think this administration has a historic opportunity to make 

very significant progress in this much neglected field. What is your 

attitude toward these two suggestions?

Mr. Udall. Senator, I found you stating the problem almost as 

I have stated it in the past. I think that I would be very hopeful 

th at we can come up with an answer to the fractionated heirship 

problem. I have seen so many reservations where they sit. They 

have economic opportunities to really get things rolling and yet you 

are stymied because no one owns the land. You cannot determine 

the ownership. I think we must come up with a solution in that 

regard.

I think it is a little bit to the shame of our country that although 

we have a development loan fund for underdeveloped countries, 

which many of us in the room supported, that we do not have really 

the same type of sound, systematic program for our own underdeveloped areas. I am amazed in my own State at how many great 

opportunities there are for economic development where we simply 

cannot do anything.

I had a tribe that I think has made the outstanding record in the 

Southwest in recent years in resource development and they came to 

me almost with tears in their eyes before I came back here because 

they had reinvested all the money they made and they said they had 

come to the end of their own money. “If we just had a million or 

two million dollars, we could build a sawmill,” o r do this. And they 

would provide jobs and learn business management. I am hopeful 

we can come up with a program that will treat our own people as 

generously as we are treating other people abroad.

Mr. Church. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say tha t I think that 

we are very fortunate to have a man of Mr. Udall’s experience and 

capacity as the Secretary of the Interior. He will deal there with 

western matters. He is a native westerner. He is a distinguished 

member of a pioneer western family. He has been an outstanding 

Member of the Congress and has been directly associated through 

the House Interior Committee with the matters over which the 

Department will exercise jurisdiction.

He has been one of the strongest and ablest men tha t I have encountered in public life and I just want to put that on the record and 

tell him tha t I am very proud to cast my vote to confirm his appointmen t as Secretary of the Interior, and I wish you well.

Mr. Udall. Than k you, Senator.

The Chairman. Senator Gruening.

Senator Gruening. I would like to join in and second the remarks 

of my colleague from Idaho. I, too, am very enthusiastic about this 

appointment of Representative Udall to be Secretary of the Interior, 

but before we conclude, I want to raise a few points for his benefit 

that I think are of great importance to us in Alaska and to the whole 

Nation, and which should be called to his attention.
16 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

In an add ress on resource dev elo pm ent in the Se nate on Ju ne 24, 

Presi dent- ele ct Ke nnedy beg an by s ay ing:

We must move rapidly to insure the prop er development of th e new American 

continent, the State of Alaska.

I think bis use of th at word “co ntinen t” was very prop er. Alaska, 

to be s ure , is a S tate, bu t it is a lso fa r more th an a State. It is a v ast 

region. It is a region which is und erd eve loped and which cries for 

dev elo pm ent a nd attentio n to its peo ple’s needs.

In p as t y ear s, I was associated with t he D ep ar tm en t of the Inte rio r, 

since I first came into th e G overn me nt in 1934, and I kn ow its working s 

well. Th e people of Ala ska have suffered grea tly from the ar bi trar y 

acts of a di stan t Federal burea ucrac y, includ ing acts of Sec reta ries 

of the Inter ior . De spi te repe ated protests by Alaska Legislatu res 

and A las ka’s voteless D ele gat es, an d for 2 yea rs by the Sta te ’s cong ressional delega tion , we have no t been able to secure m uch rectification. 

There was grea t hope and promise of rectifi cat ion du rin g the brie f 

admi nistr ation of one for me r Se creta ry of th e In terio r, Osc ar Ch ap ­

ma n, who appre cia ted Al aska ’s po ten tia lities and understood its 

problems, bu t un fo rtu na tely his ten ure was too sh or t for him to 

accomplish man y of the reform s th at he fav ore d and th at Ala skans 

would like to have seen, an d which we belie ve wou ld have been 

beneficial also to the whole Na tio n.

Th e D ep artm en t of the In terior alon e, of course, has more im po rta nt 

agencies in Alaska th an all of the rest of the Federal Go vernm ent 

de pa rtm en ts. It has the Bu reau of La nd Man agem ent; it has the 

Fis h and Wildlife Service ; it has the Bu rea u of In dian Affairs; it has 

the Na tio na l Pa rk Service; it has the Geological Survey; it has the 

Bu rea u of Min es; it has th e Alask a Ra ilroad—all ve ry im po rtan t to 

Alaska.

Du rin g the las t 20 yea rs un de r the con trol an d managem ent of an 

agency of the Dep artm en t of the Interio r, the Fis h and Wildlife 

Service, the greates t natio nal fishery reso urce— the Pacific salm on—• 

has been dep lete d alm ost to the point of exti nctio n. I t d rop ped from 

a pack of ove r 8 million cases in the late 1930’s to 1,600,000 in the 

las t ye ar of Feder al con trol, 1959, and thi s des pite the repeate d and 

unc easing prote sts of Alaska’s Delegates in Congress and our Te rri ­

tor ial legislatu re, who were aware of the continuing depletio n, bu t ha d 

no power to stop it. So Alaska has now inh erited , un de r s tat ehood, a 

tragic all y wrecked resource, once Alask a’s greatest na tu ra l resource , 

and the im pact of whose destr uctio n is very serious in all our coa stal 

villages. Th ey hav e been de pe nd ent for their livelihood on fishing 

and they are now de sti tute.

I highly appla ud the stat em en t th at you ma de a few minutes ago 

ab ou t the need of ex ten din g the kin d of a id to our own people th at we 

are extend ing so libera lly an d so gen erously to the people of over a 

hundred foreign c oun tries. Ou r F edera l au tho rities do n ot seem to be 

able to exh ibit the sam e in terest and concern for ou r tho usands of 

hu ng ry Ind ian s and Eskim os whose livelihood has been destroyed by 

Federal ina ction and Fe deral incompetenc e, an d ye t ap pa rently th ey 

show deep concern for tho se who live abroa d.

Several y ears ago, the re was a n article wr itten in F or tune magazine 

by a m an who went up and stu died Alask a. I t w as en titled “ Alaska,
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 17

the Last Frontier,” and I want to quote one or two sentences from it. 

I quote:

Nowhere under the American flag do U.S. citizens have fewer rights and more 

obligations * * *. Alaska, from the burea ucrat’s point of view, is the last best 

hope of North America. Nowhere else under the flag has the Federal Gov ernmen t 

got such a grip on the lives of U.S. citizens. Cu t a tree, build a house, harness a 

stream, shoot a bear, or net a salmon on 99 percent of th e land and a bur eaucrat 

will be on hand to say you yea or nay.

That is a situation which persists even after statehood, Mr. Secretary-designate, tha t I hope you will look into and try to remedy. I 

have called attention to what has happened to our fisheries. In 

Alaska’s vast area, at the time we gained statehood over 99 percent 

of the land was owned by the Federal Government, and on top of this 

public domain were innumerable withdrawals often made without 

hearings, frequently over the protests of Alaskans. We have right 

now a very striking example of such arbitrary action by the present 

Secretary of the Interior, your immediate predecessor. He wanted to 

withdraw some 9 million acres—a colossal area—for a wildlife range in 

the northern part of Alaska. A bill was introduced by him to achieve 

tha t purpose. Extensive hearings were held by congressional committees and the Congress rejected this legislation. Yet, after the 

election last fall, after he had been defeated, after he had become a 

lame-duck Secretary of the Interior, he arbitrarily withdrew this area, 

although in the meanwhile the State of Alaska, which has an excellent 

department of fish and game—an agency far more competent, on the 

record, to safeguard and conserve our game and fisheries than the 

Federal Government through the Interior Department—requested 

tha t the State, and not the Federal Government, make this withdrawal. 

Lamentably, no atten tion was paid to tha t request of Alaska’s Governor by Secretary Seaton. I hope one of the things you will do will be 

to review tha t decision of an expiring administration to see what is 

the proper course. We hope you will recognize the State of Alaska’s 

request.

I could go on almost indefinitely and give you examples of tha t 

kind. The Department of the Interior is of great importance in 

the lives ol Alaskans, for good or ill. In the matter of Commissioner 

Dominy, against whose appointment the chairman of this committee 

has recorded a telegram of protest, I am willing to accept your view 

that it is you who will make power policy. But I think you should 

not overlook the fact—and my experience in government confirms 

this—th at very frequently men not on the highest level initiate and 

do, in fact, make policy. They prevent certain policies from reaching 

their superiors. Their reports to their superiors may be slanted. 

The people who wield the pencil originally in a department have great 

influence in shaping policy. When we had hearings on power development in Alaska last summer, which I conducted through the 

courtesy of the chairman of the committee (Senator Anderson) who 

authorized me to do so, Commissioner Dominy testified, and it developed tha t his philosophy in this field is quite different from that 

which I believe to be the philosophy of the incoming administration.

I will not take the time to go into detail, but with the consent of the 

chairman, I would like to have the two or three pages of colloquy 

between me and Commissioner Dominy go into the record so that 

it may be clear tha t there is a difference in philosophy.

The Chairman. Without objection, tha t will be done.
18 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

(The docume nt referred to follows:)

* * * * * * *

F urther Statement of C ommissioner Dominy

Commissioner Dominy. I am Floyd E. Dominy, Commissioner of the Bureau 

of Reclamatio n. I would like to make it abu nda ntly clear th at the differences of views th at have been exchanged before the distinguished Senator from Alaska during these very worthwhile hearin gs in the past 2 weeks, in my judg ment, are differences in degree only and not a difference in fundam enta l recognition of the economic fact th at you certainly must have power before you actually can have 

the industrial growth that we are all seeking for Alaska. The point of view which I have been attem pting to express is very simply stated, I think, in this fashion: th at it is my judgment as an econom ist and as a Federal adm inistrator of some 27 years ’ stan ding—while I now hold a position which I must adm it is referred to as th at of a “political executive,” I obtained th at position thro ugh th e career service and, while as a political execu tive I must submit to the rein and bit and guidance of the adm inistration to whom I am directly accountable and thro ugh it acco untable to the Congress and to the people^ I nevertheless have personal opinions and personal views based on my years of experience in dealing with western water resource development. It is my personal conviction, sir, th at to ant icipate early and prompt developments at this stage of Alaska’s growth of a Federal und ertaking involving some billion and a half dollars, to create a potential power producer of upward of 5 million kilo watt capacity when the rail-belt area is only now consuming a little over 200,000 kilowatts of capacity, is unrealistic. I consider th at to thin k about building Ramp art now, at this stage of the Alaska economy, would be similar to have tho ught abo ut building Grand Coulee in the Pacific Northwest when the Oregon Trail was still being traveled by covered wagon an d the pop ulation coming 

from east of the Missouri River to the Pacific Northwest.

Senator Gruening. When the Oregon trail was being followed, there wasn’t 

even transmission of electricity over wires.

Commissioner Dominy. Yes; th at is true , and to th at extent the example 

is, of course, exaggerated. But I feel tha t any project th at can reduc e the present terrifically high power cost down to the range of 6 to 8 mills, for example, that can be built without the trem endo us expenditure involved in a more massive project, and th at could be completely utilized over a reasonable period of time should not be overlooked at this stag e in Alaska’s development. Now, as I say, this to me is an expression of a degree of difference a nd not a complete difference 

among myself and the other witnesses.

Senator Gruening. Well, let’s analyze your thought. You thin k tha t Rampart should not be built now bu t the Devil Canyon should be. Now Devil Canyon will cost almo st half a billion dollars. Ramp art will cost a billion and a third. Devil Canyon will have an installed capacity of 500,000 kilowatts. Ram part will have 5 million. Ramp art will produce at 2 mills. Devil Canyon a t 6 or more. In other words, you would sacrifice a power cost of at least 4 mills and tenfold capacity for a difference of perh aps 1% times the cost. Do you realize—and I think you must—th at it w’ould be no more difficult, or probably not much more difficult, to get Congress to app rop riate $1J4 billion than it would a half a billion 

considering the difference in the two projects?

Commissioner Dominy. Well, let me say first of all th at we have not finalized 

the Susitna River Devil Canyon report, and I am not in a position t o say th at as Commissioner I will recommend its construction at this time. Or th at the Depar tment, if I do, will endorse it or th at the administration will submit it to Congress as a recommended project, even if the Secretary and I find it worthy of 

consideration. Secondly, th at project has been engineered; the drilling and other engineering and economic details have been accu mulated so th at we can come u p with a firm figure as a basis for judgment. Th at c annot be said at this time for th e Ram part proposal. I certainly do not oppose the studies of Ramp art. I certainly agree with Iva n Bloch and former Assistant Secretary Davidson tha t i t would be highly desirable to protect that site under powersite withdraw al and to avoid, at all costs, any developments tha t would ten d to make infeasible th e future consideration of that great potential.

Senator Gruening. Well, I couldn’t anticip ate what the Congress would do 

bu t I think it is fairly reasonable to assume, th at if Congress authorized Devil Canyon at a cost of half a billion dollars, which would have 500,000 kilowatts
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 19

insta lled capacity of 6 mill power, it probably would not authorize Ramp art, bu t the question is which in the long range is the better deal for Alaska. And I agree with you th at the reports have not yet been completed on Rampart, bu t I think the essential thin g is now to push forward and get those facts so t ha t we can weigh the comparative value of the larger projects with which we know we will 

have to deal afte r the smaller projects are completed. My th ought in asking this question was rat her in connection with the S nettisham project. If you can forget for a moment th at you are a Government official, I would like your personal opinion: Do you feel t hat we should not go ahead with Snettisham unless we got a firm commitm ent—n ot in your official capacity bu t in 

you r personal capacity?

Commissioner Dominy. Well, I would like to say first of all, Senator, th at the Burea u’s investigation of Snettish am was based not upon the imm ediate needs of the area, nor upon the immediate projected growth under its normal, histo rical growth of the area, absent the introduction of a specific indu stry. The whole rep ort was premised on the expectation—the reasonable expe ctation—th at this industry was available. And could economically be developed under toda y’s cost-price relationship for th at industry, if a power supp ly were available in the 6-mill range, and we have had encouragement from a recognized responsible com­ pan y to proceed on t ha t basis. I do not consider it unwise to limit the authoriza­ tion—if the Congress authorizes the project—to make clear that it supp orts the judgment of the Commissioner and the Secretary of the Interior th at this is a desirable project for Federal participation bu t limits the actu al construction of the project to such time as a firm commitmen t for the utilization of the majo r block of the power is a t hand. Our project repo rt, even with the Georgia-Pacific Alaska Co.’s use, still reserves for normal local load growth a s ubs tantial q uanti ty 

of power.

Senator Gruening. I should wan t to examine th at stat em ent fully. I suspect th at when Snettisham is built and you get the Georgia-Pacific, you will be short of power with th at project with in a few years and you will have to develop other additional sites such as Lake Doro thy and Speel River.

Commissioner D ominy. Tha t may be t rue and we have contemplated th at those 

additions could come on the line very feasibly, if the base project as recommended, 

is constructed.

Senator Gruenino. Of course, there is a difference of philosophy here. Under the Roosevelt adm inistration, Franklin Roosevelt ordered Grand Coulee built and even ts rapidly proved the wisdom of his judg men t. This adm inistration would, if it approves this project, as I und erstand it will, approve it conditionally provided we have the assurance first of a power market. It is a difference in philosophy. We developed TVA and Gran d Coulee and Bonneville, all on the assumption th at industry would come and th at assumption proved justified. This adm inistration takes a more conservative view, and I thin k th at your 

testimony is along th at line. Is th at not correct?

Commissioner Dominy. Yes, I thin k it is. As I poin ted out earlier toda y, we do not have an economic condition prevailing in the United States such as pre­ vailed when TVA and Grand Coulee were considered and were authorized.

Senator Gruening. Of course we are living in a period of a very rapid change. When you began your care er in Government, you would have considered it fantastic to think th at 2 dozen space vehicles would be circling the earth. Various other changes have come, and I susp ect that our rate of growth and development will be increasingly accelerated , and th at most of our estima te 

tod ay are unduly conservative.

Commissioner Dominy. I think th at is a true statem ent, Senator.

Senator Gruen ing. Thank you very much.

* * * * * *

Senator Gruening. I would be perfectly willing to concede tha t 

you, as Secretary of the Interior, will make policy, but I think this is something tha t should be in the record; namely, tha t Commissioner Dominy opposed the Ram part project, which is one of the things Alaskans are vitally concerned with and which President-elect Kennedy has endorsed. With those remarks which I could greatly expand into other aspects, I will conclude by saying that I congratulate you and wish you well. I am very happy about your appointment.

Mr. Udall. Senator, I want to say you intimidate me a little bit 

as to whether I should take the job, but I would hope tha t when my
20 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

administration, however brief or extensive it is, is through, it will be 

said by people and people like you tha t Udall was a beneficent 

bureaucrat.

The Chairman. Since he again mentioned Mr. Dominy, I had been 

hunting earlier for a letter that I could not find, but have now. On 

January 15, 1958, talking about policy, I sent this letter to the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Seaton, and said:

I am w riting to as k you r per so na l att en ti o n re gar din g th e el im in at io n of fu nd s 

in th e fisc al ye ar 1959 budget fo r th e const ru ct io n of th e N av aj o Dam . You are 

do ub tles s aw ar e of th e pr og ra m s of th e Burea u of R ec la m at io n in no t follo wing 

th e co ng ressiona l ac tio n of tw o sessions in appro pri ati ng fu nd s to sta rt co ns truc ­

tion a t N av aj o Dam , b u t adds in su lt to in ju ry by pr op os in g to tr ansf er to th e 

Fla m in g Go rge $1}£ mi llio n al re ady co m m itte d by Co ng ress fo r th e N av aj o Dam .

While tha t was en route to the Secretary, Mr. Dominy wrote 

Senator Watkins, who had asked for the transfer:

On th e Fl am in g Go rge unit , we had us ed th e co ns truc tion pro gr am fo r th e 

fiscal yea r 1959. We ex pe ct to hav e about $4 mi llion av ai la bl e, of which $2% 

mi llio n wou ld be ap pro pri ate d an d $154 mi llio n wou ld come from th e N av aj o 

un its, sin ce we are clo sin g do wn th is unit.

He did not get it closed down, b ut God knows he tried, and I just 

hope th at he will bear in mind the fact tha t when Congress has twice 

appropriated money, has twice declared its congressional intent, when 

work is underway, it is not the function of the Commissioner of 

Reclamation to say, “What is the Congress? I will close it down,” 

and proceed to do so. It did not quite get closed down, but it was a 

long, long, long battle and I would hate to have to keep going through 

tha t month after month again.

Mr. Fong.

Senator F ong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Congressman Udall, I have not had the pleasure of meeting you 

prior to this, but listening to the remarks of all the Senators here, I 

am satisfied that you are going to make a very distinguished Secretary 

of the Interior.

Unlike my good friend, Mr. Gruening’s State of Alaska, Hawaii 

has very little public lands and all our lands sell at a premium. At 

the present time, there is being investigated the problem of surplus 

land in the State of Hawaii, and your predecessor, Secretary Seaton, 

has given us his interpretation of the Statehood Act which was passed, 

tha t all surplus land, regardless of whether it was ceded by the territorial government to the United States, or land which was purchased 

or otherwise acquired should be returned to the State of Hawaii. 

This will be taking place within the next 4 years. There is now an 

investigation going on as to what land is being declared surplus.

Do you agree with Secretary Seaton’s interpretation of surplus land?

Mr. Udall. I am not, I will be candid to say, conversant with this 

program, nor have I ever examined it. I know what your land problems are and it is my horseback opinion—I would like to reserve the 

right to review it—that his decision is a sensible one.

Senator Fong. The island of Oahu is only 600 square miles in area 

and on it live over 500,000 people. You can see, therefore, the great 

premium placed on the land in the State of Hawaii. We would like 

to ask you to look with favor upon tha t interpretation.

Unlike the Northwest States, or Alaska where there are tremendous 

rivers, we do not have rivers. We are surrounded by a sea of salt
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 21

water and we have problems dealing with water, and one of the great 

problems is to have water on some of our leeward islands. Would you look with favor on placing a pilot saline w aterplant in 

the State of Hawaii?

Mr. Udall. Senator, it is my hope, and I am sure my President’s 

hope, tha t we can move along fast enough on this program so that we will not only place a pilot plant in the next few years, but a major plant tha t will produce the water tha t you need. I think this is an area where we should accelerate this program which Congress has 

very wisely pushed down along the road.

Senator Fong. Thank you for your very encouraging stateme nt.

Senator Geuening. Mr. Chairman, may I make a brief comment 

on Senator Fong’s statement? About a half a century ago, a former Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Walter Fisher, a very excellent Secretary, pointed out and I quote :

The jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior over Hawaii is extremely 

limited and the islands are largely self-governing.

So we in Alaska understand why Hawaii is called the paradise of 

the Pacific.

Senator F ong. For over a hundred years we thought we did not 

have any minerals in Hawaii. We have just discovered great deposits of bauxite which is capable of supplying the needs of America’s 

industries for 100 years. Our State legislature has been delving into the problem, but we do not have the finances to really go into the problem very deeply. We also have deposits of titanium and I would like to ask very sym­ pathetic consideration from the Interior Department to help us develop these mineral resources.

Mr. Udall. We want to develop all the resources we have, no 

matter where we find them. We certainly will give our attention to it.

Senator Fong. Thank vou.

Another problem which deals with the Pacific is self-government. You will be recommending to the President the appointment of the Governor of American Samoa and the Governor of Guam. When Hawaii was a territory, our Governor was appointed by the President of the United States. While we were a territory, there was much discussion as to whether the man appointed should be a longtime resident or native as opposed to an appointee from the mainland. In American Samoa there is Governor Coleman, who is a native Samoan. In Guam is Governor Flores, who is a native Guamanian. I would like to ask you as to your views in considering such appointments.

Mr. Udall. This all is somewhat new to me and the best judgment 

I have been able to get so far is that as a general matter, the native Governor idea, which is part of the process of transferring or encour­ aging self-government, is a sound concept. Whether we will follow it in every instance, I cannot say as yet, but it seems to me the idea 

is a sound one.

Senator Fong. Tha nk you. I have no further questions.

Senator Kuchel. Mr. Chairman, may I make one comment?

The Chairman. Yes.

Senator Kuchel. I understand this record is not one to judge the 

Commissioner of Reclamation, but I simply w’ant the record to show as far as my dealings with them, they have certainly been excellent.
22 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

I do no t want the Secretary-designate to feel by ray silence there is 

no confidence.

Mr. Udall. I am sure there are many others who share tha t view. 

Indeed, I would not have selected him to continue if I did not feel 

tha t he was highly competent.

In my view, this is a line office, really, and not a policymaking 

office and there are times when either by default or on purpose, these 

people are made into policy officers because someone else does not 

want to take the rap for something, but I regard this as a largely 

line office. It may mean extra burdens, but I intend to make the 

policy and consult with my associates within the Department when 

necessary on it.

The Chairman. Senator Moss.

Senator Moss. Mr. Chairman, and Congressman Udall, I certainly 

welcome the nomination of the President in his designation of Stewart 

Udall to be Secretary of the Interior. Stewart Udall is our close 

neighbor and we have known him a long time in our State and I have 

known him personally during the time tha t he has been in Congress.

As far as 1 am concerned, his record in Congress speaks as loudly 

as anything as to what he will do as the Secretary of the Interior, 

and 1 will be most happy to cast my vote to confirm his appointment.

I have listened with great interest to the questions and the comments tha t have been made by the committee, and the answers that 

have been given by Mr. Udall. All of them seem to fit into the 

pattern of his philosophy, as I understand it, and I do not propose 

to prolong the record with other questions, or even observations, 

other than to say that I know th at Mr. Udall is fully dedicated to the 

development of our great resources in this country. It happens that 

most of our public land lies in the Western States, but, nevertheless, 

the problem of resource development is nationwide, and is the concern 

of the whole country.

The comment was made earlier as to how much of Alaska is Federal 

domain and how much of Nevada is. I would say for the record 

tha t 74 percent of the State of Utah is Federal domain and consequently we have great concern with the policies of the Department 

of the Interior in the management of those lands and the development 

of our resources. I look forward to working with you, Stewart, in 

the years ahead, and I am proud indeed to vote to confirm.

Mr. Udall. Thank you very much.

The Chairman. Senator Long.

Senator Long. Mr. Chairman, I wish to join in the statements of 

all mv colleagues who preceded me in commending the President-elect 

for his selecting Mr. Udall as the Secretary of the Interior.

Hawaii shares with Alaska a rather unique distinction. I believe 

outside of the State of New Mexico, Mr. Chairman, the two new 

States had the privilege of being under the general supervision of the 

Department of the Interior longer than any of the other States. 

In our experience it was pleasant. In the main, it was constructive. 

I wish to join my distinguished colleague in urging that those things 

tha t are material relating to Hawaii receive the attention which I am 

sure they will receive, and that they have always received.

In addition to that, I have one thought tha t I wish to present and 

perhaps to ask a question about it. We are frequently referred to in 

Hawaii as the capital of the Pacific area. We are not, of course.
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 23

But we are in a unique position and one of our interests is the human 

side of the whole Pacific area. America has had a responsibility in east Samoa, generally referred 

to as American Samoa, since the year 1839. We have been responsible for it now for over 60 years. I have made three trips there, 

one just this last fall. I am proud of the record to an extent, but I think we have left a great deal there to be done tha t might have been done before this time. I feel the same way about Guam, although we have not had the opportunity for such a long period. What I have in mind is that we should do in this area, including the 

islands of the trust area, a bette r job than we have been doing and one of the things that we should be very alert to now, in view of the fact tha t the British are giving complete and unconditioned independence to West Samoa, and one of the things that we should have in mind and be working toward constantly is the granting of increasing self-government, self-control, to these people because they will never 

learn otherwise. They are a grand group of people and they have centuries of island culture back of them. We do not want to destroy 

that culture. We want to hold it. And it is the job of the Dep art­ ment of the Interior, Mr. Udall, more than i t is of any other depa rt­ ment, and we are confident tha t you appreciate tha t and tha t great 

progress will be made during the period of your service.

Thank you.

Mr. Udall. Senator, if I may just comment, I would say you have 

a much more intim ate knowledge of the problems than I have. I certainly think the spirit tha t is exemplified by your statement is a most wise one, because we are in a very limited sense a colonial power, too, and I think we are too quick sometimes to throw rocks at other 

countries tha t have their problems. We have to look to our own 

record in this regard.

The C hairman. Mr. Udall, I just want to say tha t we now come to 

the new members of the committee. We have been extremely blessed by the fine people, I think, that have been added to the committee. 

I am very glad to welcome them here personally, and 1 know you will 

be very happy to work with them.

Mr. Udall. Having served with two of them, I will say a heavy 

amen to that.

The C hairman. Senator Burdick.

Senator Burdick. Mr. Chairman, I am in a rather unique position. 

Having been exposed to the thinking and the views of and the ideas 

of Mr. Udall, and more recently than other members of the committee, having served with Mr. Udall for 2 years in the House Interior 

Committee, I have no questions. As a matter of fact, I cannot think of any area in which we ever disagreed. I am delighted tha t you have been given this new responsibility.

The Chairman. From the State of Iowa, a new Senator, Senator 

Miller.

Senator Miller. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, as the newest member on this committee, I apologize 

for arriving late, but this hearing was not called to my attention until 

after you had already commenced.
24 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

The Chairman. I am sorry, Senator, but I did not know th at the 

Republicans had designated you and I only took the things tha t I 

absolutely did know. Again let me say I am sorry.

Senator Miller. Mr. Udall, I should add my word of welcome and, 

not having had the privilege of serving with you, I would like to ask a 

couple of questions.

One is whether or not you have previously assumed a position, or 

do you now have a policy with respect to the relative priority between 

industrial power and navigation on the Missouri River?

Mr. Udall. No; I do not have a position or policy on it. My mind 

is completely open, and tha t is all I can say.

Senator Miller. Thank you.

The Chairman. Are you referring to select navigation and things 

we have been discussing along this line?

Senator Miller. Tha t is right. One more question.

Do you have a position or a policy with respect to the establishment 

of a Missouri Valley Authority?

Mr. Udall. I do not have any fixed ideas on this. It does seem to 

me in the previous commissions that we have had and studies that we 

have made, we have come up with some pretty good recommendations 

and t his is one, I am sure, we will want to analyze before long.

Senator Miller. I have no further questions. Thank you very 

much.

The Chairman. Senator Metcalf, who is also no stranger to you.

Senator Metcalf. Mr. Chairman, I am delighted tha t in this, my 

first official act as a member of the Interior Committee, I welcome 

Stewart Udall to his new appointment. I served for 6 years with 

the Secretary-designate on the House Interior Committee. I served 

for 6 years with him on the House Education and Labor Committee, 

and sat side by side and worked part way up the committee together. 

I know of no one in the Congress of the United States tha t is more 

deserving of the title of U.S. Representative than Stewart Udall. We 

have never had a better friend for the State of Montana, a better 

friend for the State of Idaho, a better friend for all the Western States, 

all the United States, than Stewart Udall.

Three of the great Senators on this committee are indebted to his 

efforts and half the other men in the Congress of the United States 

for the dignity of statehood. I am indebted to him for many projects 

in my State, and so, Mr. Chairman, it is with great pride that my first 

official vote as a member of your great committee is to vote for my 

friend, mv former colleague, and a great American, the Secretary of 

the Interior-designate.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Metcalf.

Senator Hickey.

Senator Hickey. Mr. Chairman and Congressman Udall, I would 

like to pass along to you the commendations that were received 

when you appeared as the first high official, the Secretary of the 

Interior-designate, before the Upper Colorado group. The Chairman 

was present and after that meeting among the governors and commissioners there they expressed deep appreciation for your forthright 

attitud e and commended the President-elect on his selection.

So tha t the Dominy ma tter is bi-partisan, may I say tha t I have 

known Mr. Dominy for a good many years. We were in school 

together at the University of Wyoming. My predecessor, Senator
NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL 25

O’Mahoney, I think was influential in inducing him to come to the 

Department in 1943, 1944, 1945, or 1946, one of those years. During the time that I have been associated with him on Inte rior 

problems I found that he has done just what you say is possible and 

that is carry out the policy and enforce the laws as written by Congress. 

I want to say tha t we in Wyoming stand as recommending him to 

you. One other problem which I do not know whether it has come 

to your attention or not, is the reduction of some of the wildlife 

herds in the national forest, which is of some concern in my State.

I do not know whether you know the background of those o r not, 

and we would request tha t you take a new look at this problem a t the 

time you take over the Department of the Interior. I want to say that I will be happy and proud to cast my vote for 

your confirmation.

Mr. Udall. Than k you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. Senator Carroll.

Senator Carroll. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for my lateness, but 

I have been on another committee where we have been questioning 

the next Attorney General, Bob Kennedy. So it was not my lack of 

interest in this nomination at all. Because Colorado, of course, has 

a very great interest always in the Dep artm ent of the Interior.

I have known Congressman Udall for a long time. I have a very 

high opinion of his ability and his integrity, his character, his fairness, 

and, even though he comes from what we call the low basin States, I 

am confident t ha t he will be fair with us and all who come from the 

upper basin States. I might ask ju st one or two questions. Have you been working in 

this transition period with Secretary Seaton9

Mr. Udall. Yes; we have had several agreeable contacts.

Senator Carroll. Do you know th at the General Accounting Office 

is about to submit a report on the conservation of helium, of the 

legislation which has been before us and was passed by the Congress 

last year9

Mr. Udall. No; I did not know that.

Senator Carroll. Have you had an opportunity to examine what 

has been done since we passed the helium bill last year9

Mr. Udall. No; this has not been called to my atten tion, nor 

would I consider that I have the authority until I am officially seated.

Senator Carroll. I do now call it to your attention.

As I recall the statute tha t was passed, we are in favor of the conservation of helium, and I give to you the sum and substance, not specifically, but there were some $200 million plus involved in 11 

contracts. Those contracts are not executed until March, so as you 

assume your duties, as I believe you will, and I certainly intend to 

vote for you, I ask you to look into those. We will be talking to you 

later on, I suspect.

I have been informed of the number of questions tha t have been 

asked of you. I think they have been very good questions and very 

fair questions.

Mr. Udall. I feel tha t I have been thoroughly worked over, 

Senator.

Senator Carroll. This is a healthy thing for us.

Mr. Udall. I certainly agree. I think it has been a most constructive one.
26 NOMINATION OF STEWART L. UDALL

Senator Carroll. As we get to know you better, I think some of 

the members who do not know you as well as I do, if they have not 

already, will have the same confidence in you tha t I have. I know 

you do a fine job. I know your Department will act in the public 

interest. You will cooperate with the committee within the bounds 

of reason. I am sorry tha t I could not be here, Mr. Chairman, to 

hear all the other interrogation.

As far as I am personally concerned, I stand ready to help you in 

all matters. 1 wish you would give some specific attention to the 

decline of the mining economy of the West and what has happened 

to us. 1 am not going to ask for specific legislation, but we will be 

talking in hearings later on through the months, and I wish you and 

your staff the best. I think tha t the President was fortunate in 

having a man of your character and your knowledge of the West to 

become Secretary of the Interior. I will help you in every way I can. 

Good luck to you.

Mr. Udall. Thank you, Senator.

The Chairman. I say to you, Mr. Secretary, that we have been 

fortunate tha t every member of the committee has been here and has 

had a chance to be with you.

Because the nomination has not yet been sent to the Senate, we 

cannot vote at this time. But in the stricte st of confidence and just 

inside this room, when we do get a chance to vote, I feel it will be 

an overwhelming vote for your confirmation, probably unanimous.

I also say I want to congratulate you on the forthright way in 

which you have answered our questions. That does not surprise me. 

It has been my good fortune to work with you on Indian administration in our country. I have great confidence in your fairness and 

your righteousness and I am sure tha t your work will be a splendid 

success.

You have been here longer than you probably would desire, but 

the Senate is not only the most deliberative body; it is the most 

deliberate body. Thank you for being here.

Mr. Udall. Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the hearing in the above-entitled 

matter was closed.)

(Subsequent to the close of the hearing, the following telegram was 

received from Dean Barline, president of the Northwest Public Power 

Association, pertaining to the communication of Gus Norwood.2

 The 

telegram is printed at the direction of Chairman Anderson.)

Tacoma, Wash., January IS, 1961.

Senator Clinton P. Anderson,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.:

I am informed a telegram from Gus Norwood, executive secretary of the 

Northwest Public Power Association, opposing the selection of Floyd Dominy as 

Commissioner of Reclam ation, was presented at a Senate hearing on this ma tter 

today. Please be advised, the directors of the association have not considered 

the qualifications of Mr. Dominy for this position and the association has tak en 

no position favoring or opposing this app ointme nt. Mr. Norwood has advised 

me that this state ment is based on his personal experience with Bureau of Reclamation activities in the Pacific Northw est in the past 2 years, and requests th at 

his telegram of Jan uar y 12 not be made a p art of the record.

Dean Barlin e,

President, Northwest Public Power Asso c^t

x . .

3

 The telegraphic communication referred to appears on p. 2 of this hearing record.

X