Note: The output shown below is from the

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the On

- Board Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting # 6 and is generally unedited

. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON

- BOARD CIRCULATION AND SEATING SUBCOMMITTEE TELECONFERENCE

Thursday, June 12 , 2014

-- 1:00 p.m.

Location: United States Access Board 1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000 Washington, DC 2 0004

>> First is Melissa Shurland. >> She is here from the Federal Railroad Administration.>> Okay. T hat's good.

>> Robert Bob Reuter.
>> Access. Paralyzed Veterans. >> operator boost. B ob Reuter. >> Try that. >> Testing one two three. >> Sounds good. G ary Talbot.
>> Hi Gary Talbot Amtrak.
>> Marsha Mazz. U h

- oh Marsha is probably on mute. >> Dennis Cannon. >> Dennis. >> Dennis Cannon one more time. >> Dennis can none National Disability Rights Network.
>> Blair Slaughter. >> Blair Slaughter Amtrak. >> Steve

-- I'm sorry Billy Altom.
>> The Association of programs for Rural Independent Living. >> Steve Fuhrman. >> (inaudible) with RailPlan I will just be listening.
>> Okay. T hank you. S teven Roman.>> LTC.

>> Really good. O kay.
>> Ken Shiotani.
>> National disabilities right network. >> Boost Ken Shiotani's line.
>> DRM better.
>> Ed Hoff. E d Hoff, New Jersey Transit.
>> Sid Goldstein. >> Sid Goldstein access transit report I will be participating. >> Boost the line on Sid Goldstein. >> His line is boosted. >> Repeat your name please Sid. >> Sid Goldstein access transit.
>> Christopher Hart?
>> And Michael Porter. >> Amtrak. >> in the room we have Melissa Anderson Molly Stoneman intern. J im Pecht. P aul Beatty. M arsha Mazz. A nd Rose Marie Access Board and our CART reporter for the day is Beverly Early. We are still getting the site up and Paul is going to E

- mail the site out to everybody. A nd I Lee it to Paul to actuallysay when he wants to started the meeting.

>> Well I don't have the new link

. >> Melissa you still on the line. >> Hello. >> I got an E

- mail from frank. >> Melissa Anderson.
>> I am on the line.
>> Oh, okay you were asking for people's names right? >> No Rose was. >> I'm sorry. Well, you didn't call my name here I am. >> Oh, I'm sorry Frank . O kay. (LAUGHTER).
>> And Beverly is the line good? F rank Maldari I am trying to see if it pulls up. W ho sent it to you. I forwarded it from her. >> I am see the CART working just fine on my part. I removed the numbers afte r the Access Board to the previous posted one and it seems to be working just fine. >> Well, maybe you could read the address to Paul he can type it into the E

- mail.
>> I did what Frank said. S o that gave mesomething that is working.

>> The stream is go od, okay.
>> Okay. >> Ladies and gentlemen the stream is up. Paul? >> and I have sent the E

- mail so, we are ready to start.
Good afternoon everybody this is Paul Beatty welcome to the 6th meeting of the on

- board circulation and seating subcommittee. Your next meeting will be Thursday July 10. J ust remind you that we

-- I don't think we have a chat box function or if we do we don't want the CART operator focusing on that if you have questions if you are only using CART and you have any questions or des ire to make any statements please use RVAAC

- mail address at RVAAC @ access

- board.gov you can send it to me and I will let the people running the meeting know that you have a question or desire to make a statement. We have no time on public comments schedu led for the call. The reason for that is anybody may participatein the call as if they were a committee

member. Remember to give your name before speaking or immediately after speaking so that the CART reporter can record that. One comment that I want to make, some talk has been about the drawings sent in, it's important to note that when people send us drawings there is an added hoop that we have to go through besides the accessibility we have to make sure that they are not copy writed meaning that the person who owns the drawings will give us permission to use it. We have to place everything on the website which means the drawings will then be available to the public. S o that's an ADA thing to go through besides convert the drawings into an accessibl e format which can take time. Particularly when they are in PDF since I have to go through a colleague who has a complete acrobat suite. S o, that ends my opening statements I will turn it over to Melissa. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: I want to thank everybody fo r participating today yourpatience I will turn it directly over to Blair

because he is our chairperson go ahead Blair it's all yours.
>> Thank you Melissa. A nd Paul, let me ask you a question quickly, what format do you need to get things in? B ecause obviously I have been taking these things and converting them into PDFs but I can just as easily export them out as something more manageable like a PNG or something like that if you like.
>> PAUL BEATTY: For my capabilities if you send me a PowerPoint, I c an convert that real simple. B ecause I have that software. S o, if you cut and paste the slides into our PowerPoint, I know there are

-- another option is Melissa and I were talking about when you send us something in PDF we can cut and paste the PDF pict ures into a Word document and then all we have to do is put the ALT text description which is general in nature. S o, it's more complicated if in the PDF document you have a lot of text, like you imbed several paragraphs to describe what is going on. I f i t's in an image format I can'teasy cut and paste I have to go in and type it.

>> Well, I will do this, I will send you sample files because I think you may find that if I just give them to you as PNG it would be a seamless clean file going into Word or PowerPoint. W hy don't we

-- we will try that see and what works best I will export them accordingly.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Right. T his is Paul Beatty jpg's is fine particularly the stuff that you want to use Blair we have to go through the issue about copyright obviously Amtrak stuff we don't have a problem with you are with Amtrak we got permission from New Jersey Transit to use their stuff but I haven't been able to get or gotten permissions for the other material.
>> This is Bob Reuter. I didn't send you anything that I wasn't public document.
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty speaking. We would need the evidence to that effect. E ither a statement from them and we can't just pull things off the web for purposes of federal government stuff.>> Bob: S ome of these companies are out

of business now which could be interesting.
>> PAUL BEATTY: I will ask that question to your attorneys whether we have any problems we have to worry about if they are out of business. I will check on that. >> Blair: O kay. A s I look at our list of things that we need to nail down, it seems to me that if we obviously all have a lot of conversation that we would like to have about things and work through and put something down very firmly. B ut I think maybe another way to go at this is if we can go through the

-- we are still working on the old agenda in item 5, if we can work through item 5 and put some numbers against those things sort of fill in the blanks, and then go away as a matter of homework write up our notes and
commen ts to that and then come back to it maybe that would help our efficiency in getting through everything as a first pass and then really chewing on things. I think if we can see everything with something against it, then it lets us begin to really see how s ome ofthese things may overlap and one dimension

or one space affect another or another aspect of the overall RVAAC work one of the other subcommittees. S o, with that in mind, I am going to try to pick back up with where we left off, which I think was wi th the wheelchair space item 5.1.5 from the last meeting. I hoped that we would have access to the drawing information and what we have do ne for those of you that are familiar, we have gathered a lot of floor plans and site elevations of existing vehicles of all sorts of modes, and combined them. S o that rather than you know me getting stuck in the long distance or the inter

- city rail world and other folks on the call thinking in terms of light rail and subways and things like that, we can all sort of mesh everything together because I will talk about things without meaning to strictly in inter

- city and then sort of forget wow the things that we are doing affects everyone. A nyway, that's my suggestion. Does anyone have a thought on that as far as going through trying to plug some numbersinto these various points and then coming

back around and really hashing them out? >> It sounds like a g reat idea.
>> This is Dennis Cannon does everybody have the agenda on the website for example? It's going to lead you through something and see if it works. I f you are on the website, the agenda on the website the far right that's update guidelines for b uses and vans. I f you click on that, and then go down to the first bullet "proposed update" from that you go down to "chapter T4"

-- there it is. Wheelchair spaces and securement systems. Click on T4 you get the actual technical provisions that are in t he proposed bus section

-- I don't know if the board decided to separate these things or not but initially the rail vehicle stuff is going to be inside this larger rule. B ut at any rate there is a size requirement it talks about

-- we are going to change that because we are going to increase the dimensions but as long as we get the concepts down

-- there is diagrams too. B ut it talks about things like front and

-- this iswhat Ed Steinfeld said about the alcove

provision if you enter from the side or the front or the back it is convinced on three spaces you have to add extra space. B asically there is the basic format of in this case it's the old 30 by 48 which we are going to change and if you go into an alcove in some way you have to add additional space s to additional 6 inches of length for example. I f you have to move in from the side. S o, what I think the issue here is except for the numbers like the length and width we are proposing to change this is already covered. We don't need to reinvent the w heel, we can basically say, this

-- complying with this section is done and let the board do the

-- >> MELISSA ANDERSON: This is Melissa. >> Crossing the I's and dotting the T's as it were to get the reference for this specific thing does that make sense e verybody? Because there is no point discussing a lot of stuff if we already got it. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: This is Melissa Anderson, and the reference

-- there is a lotof benefit to looking at the pictures and

diagrams and understanding the concepts of what Dennis just walked you through. T hat was a proposed rule there have been significant changes we don't want to use that or assume we can reference

-- reference a proposed rule. We need to kind of start from

-- I mean the concepts are good so everybody u nderstands the concepts of the alcove and maneuvering space we need to look what is necessary in the rail car separately. >> Dennis: I wasn't saying we should pick these up because there have been changes. I am suggesting if the concept works then what

we need to do is discuss the rule number that is we are going to plug into that and let the board do the massaging about how you actually reference or fit it in there. T he question is that, do we need to discuss at great length some of the things that are already contained in the concept. I f the concept works, then all we need to do is worry about the specific numbers we are going toput in there rather than try to deal with how to

get the alcove and all of this stuff.
>> That's a good point. >> Frank: I think that's a great idea. Having an outline is

-- helps you like Blair said at the beginning once you have an outline down you can argue about the points. But I think this is a great approach. >> Blair: I am curious, where is

-- with the proposed rule in process right now? I assume some of the numbers and things are being massaged where does that stand? >> MELISSA ANDERSON: This is Melissa Anderson we had written the final text we are working on the preamble it should be submitted to the board at the J uly meeting. Yeah, and then it goes through the office of management and budget before it gets posted.
>> In other words, about four years. (LAUGHTER). >> I can't get the retirement in that time. Okay. Well,

-- >> Well, I think looking at the inform ationfrom the report that we used last meeting

provides us with a lot of good information too Ed Steinfeld's office and the dimensions he gave us.
>> Yes, his dimensions is great.
>> Dennis Cannon: I like the thing Ed put. The only thing I recommend cha nging is he has got I think point number 1 is that the space must be immediately adjacent to the entrance or something like that. A nd it probably needs to say something like as close as practicable because in the inner

- city car the entrance is in the vest ibule you want to go into the compartment for the space itself. So, you don't want the spaces to be "quote" in the vestibule. You want to say as close as practicable to and make sure there is an accessible route to it. T hat's the only thing I saw from E d's piece that I think needs to be changed. >> Thanks Dennis. S o, if we are looking down at item 5.1.5 on the list, I think that

-- if I am reading Ed's information right, the wheelchair space would be 32 by 54 am Iseeing that correctly?

>> Yes. >> Blair : Well, I would say that if everyone is okay with that for the moment, as a starting point something to throw some darts at why don't we leave it there at 32 by 54 that's my recommendation at least. A nd then move to

-- move through the path. A nd then I think part of what we should do and then I
am
-- since we are gathering all of this drawing information is to take that footprint and drop it in and see shall

--what it impacts obviously in the world of inches inside of fixed dimension rail cars, those begi n to affect the things around them. S o, would someone like to make that official for the moment that we go with the 32 by 54. >> So moved. >> This is Linda. I hate to throw a wrench in the thing but I believe the

-- the bi

- level 304 is 32 by 59. You cou ld check that but I believe that's the case. I mean
-- I am not saying that it can't be different but

-- >> This is Melissa Shurman that's correct itis 32 by 59. I spoke to some of the folks at the IDeA Center months ago and I was told that the rest of that (inaudible) that's the Claire the wheeled device. J ust not to include basic >> Dennis Cannon: T hat's where the alcove stuff comes in from the proposed rule. It says basically when you have confined spaces you have to add more spaces and the 54 woul d be a minimum not a set number, in other words, you could

-- you could have more than that. 5 9 would comply. A nd it may be bigger than that if you need to maneuver into an alcove situation in which you need to add some additional room.
>> This is Frank. I think we agreed on the 32 by 54 I thought the stumbling area which to me is still a stumbling area is is defining how to quality an accessible path. T hat's when we were talking about using boxes and models and we got into a long lengthy discussion abo ut how to do it. I am not sure that what is proposed for the buses is all that clear either. B ut you know, the dimensions ofthe overall ought line of the wheelchair 32 by

58 makes good sense based on the research that was done. T hat's a good starting p oint. >> I am not suggesting it be changed I wanted to point it out.
>> Blair: M aybe Melissa Shurland can help me out here the PRIIA information, was that

-- was that left as a recommendation or was that firmly placed in the

-- >> Melissa Shurland : T hat is part of the bi

- level specification requirements it's not a recommendation it's actually going to be incorporated into the California cars shortly. >> That's just in the RFP right? T hat's not across the board it's just that particular order.
>> Melissa: I t's in the prefix in used would have to meet the 32 by 59 requirement.
>> Okay. >> That's the bi

- level

-- it's still

-- >> Yeah, we are developing to assess additional feet tours so that's recommendations have not been presented to the executive board for final approval as yet. But I suspect the 32 by 59 will be just to keepthe equipment consistent. >> Blair: T he thing that concerns me is where I have laid in the PRIIA dimensions, just using existing equipment because that's what we have to wo rk with, the impact can be pretty big. A nd one of the things that I am curious about is right now we look at a 30 by 48 rectangle that's 30 inches tall. A nd still looking at the 32 by 59 by I assume 30 defining a cubic space or if that 59 as extremity go ing to be

-- have a step overlap allowance or is it going to be a sheer vertical dimension. >> Blair, this is Linda Martin, we

-- we were discussing this Cal Trans on the procurement, yes, there is some allowance for under table space, for instance, it's t he same. I mean that hasn't changed in terms of how much under table

-- how much under something space can be included in the 32 by 59. A nd, also, some space of the accessible route can be included in the 32 by 59. J ust like it is currently. O nly it's 30 by 48.
>> Right right.>> Dennis Cannon: I n the building

guidelines basically you say that a certain amount of that space like of the 48 inches, maximum of 6 inches of the 48 can go under something that has a minute misdemeanor of 9 inches of vertical clearance. I think because I recall from Ed's comment the other day he thinks the 9 is too small. S o, I don't know what he wants it to be. S o, he would allow a certain amount of say 6 inches of that space to go under something that has a vertical cleara nce of I don't know 10 or 12 inches. And then you could have up to I think in the building it's like 17 inches can go under a table that has a minimum of 29 clear inches. So, you get

-- you get these issues of being able to stick part of that space under something else so it doesn't have to take up the entire floor space. >> Some of it can be shared between spaces. >> Right. A nd it can share the

-- the current requirement is generally that the wheelchair space has to ajoin or overlap partof the accessib le route. You are allowed to

have some of that space go into the accessible route. A s long as you don't do things like, you know, block an aisle or what not in the rail car. A s long as you get the chair over far enough it's not going to block the aisle. >> That may be a dimension that would be worth us including that what that overlap dimension is. We have told people 6 inches sort of informally I don't know if there is anything in the rail car regulations that says how much it can encroach that space.
>> Blair: I am looking at it's as app for the PRIIA single level. >> Blair: I t calls for minimum 34 by 52 inches in a coach as well as lounge cafe and dining cars. ( inaudible) 32 by 59 inches is recommended. S o, what I am seeing there is it's almost l ike there is

-- there is the definition for the maneuvering space which is almost as long as an alcove situation. B ut not quite. B ut then the same numbers given to the footprint. T hat seems a little bit confusing. T hat's why I thought maybe theintent was that

-- there is moreover lap or

implied overlap or maneuvering versus strict cubic space of 32 inches by 59 by I assume again 30 inches. >> This is Linda. I think you are right Blair, I think there is some other benefit to making that clear because t here was confusion with the bi

- level as well.
>> Blair: R ight. I think it's

-- I would tend to agree with what Ed said about the overlap the 9 inches up and 6 inches out because what I have seen is a lot of the normal appendages on wheelchairs the footre st and things like that depending on the configuration are well love 9 inches, so

-- well above 9 inches you don't get the maneuvering space it's a full dimension of the device instead of having you know that

-- well, if you put your

-- if your feet are in the 9

- inch plane it can be ugly if your feet impact the seat or whatever may be

-- might be hanging out there. Well, that's a bit of a quandary. I am curious where did the 59 inches on the PRIIAcome from what is the basis of that? >> Maybe well can you speak to that.
>> This is Melissa Shurland. T his was based on the research from the IDeA Centers as well as looking at the various sizes of power chairs and scooters. S o the 32 by 59 actually covered 90% of the power chairs. And I think about 80% of the scooters that are currently being used. A nd we have some background information on the research that went into some of the values in the specifications. >> Frank: I am looking at Ed's work on minimum floor space he is showing the 32 by 54 covers 90% of powered scooters and over 95% of the manual operating chairs.
>> Dennis Cannon: I suspected that the 59 came from including some of the maneuvering space.
>> It did.
>> Dennis: T hat you don't need. B ut if you then

-- if that includes the maneuver space but then you look at that as the actual footprint of the chair, then you can't get itunless it moves side ways you can't get it into

some spaces so what you would be stuck with is adding additional space beyond the 59 in order to get the maneuvering clearance. I think you need to be careful about not specifying the foot print as being the minimum that you need for maneuvering you get into the problem of oh, now we have to add 6 more inches or whatever you allow for maneuvering space. I think that's

-- yo u have to be careful about doing that.
>> Except for one this is Bob Reuter, again, if you have two facing each other the footprint can be 32 by 54 the two chairs if not moving at the same time is you know reasonable people wouldn't do that. T here would b e enough maneuvering room between the chairs for each one of them individually to get out not both at the same time they would share the maneuvering space.
>> Right. >> Melissa Shurland: 3 2 by 59 would be in consideration maneuvering into the accessible s pace.>> Melissa this is Rose Marie U.S. Access

Board your line is popping in and out. >> Sorry. A bout that I will call back in. >> Okay. T hank you. >> Bob Reuter again. We need a parking space or position standing still and the maneuvering space added to that. >> Frank: T he maneuvering space is a problem it depends on how are you maneuvering through the car. I f you come up with a single number of 5 9 inches, maybe that works in one particular layout of the car and it doesn't work in another. I know this is where we got caught up last time is trying to explain how you can maneuver into a space. I said typically you put a box around the chair of what ever dimension it is 30 by 48 and demonstrate you can get in and out of there the maneuverability is associate with the typical wheelchair that we typically use. I think if you can define it that way, then it is something that's functional and practical t hat you can demonstrate rather than coming up with a number that may or may not workdepending on the particular layout in the car.

You want to be able to get from outside the car to inside the area associated to be stored. And you should be able to do t hat. W ith whatever space is necessary, assuming that the envelope of your chair is in this case 32 by 54. I f you start putting additional numbers on there, really justifying them, I think it's going to be difficult.
>> The only problem with this I am say ing as you say different chairs mid wheel drive power chair can pivot in its own dimension compared to the big scooters which is like parallel parking the car. >> Gary Talbot: We need to come up with a number whatever it is plus or minus you have to have something to design to. >> Dennis: R ight. O ne of the things, remember that these guidelines aren't going to be applied to existing vehicles they are for new manufacturer. O ne of the things is if you are doing a design don't do a design

-- I mean that cramps the chair and makes it impossible to maneuver in the space because Ihave seen this before in the old days with

people putting alcoves or securement spots on light rail vehicles they did this in Dallas; for example they said no you had to be in that
s pace but the rule doesn't really require that. It was impossible to get into that that was a design issue. I f you are designing this thing from new look at the issues and space and at the footprint of the device that you need to do. A nd adjust your desi gn accordingly. Don't

-- don't make the design that's going to be difficult for someone to get into. I t depends on if you have to move in you are approaching the space from the side or approaching it straight in like if you are going into a dining room u nder the table where you maybe be able to pull straight in there is a lot of differences. S o, when talking about designing this, you are not going to de

-- it's not going to work the numbers aren't going to work in the existing rail cars. F or the most part. S o, if you are telling somebody these are the numbers that you have to meet, then adjust your design accordingly.>> These numbers to be

-- >> the only requirement in a

-- the only requirement in the statute for vehicles is
re
- manufacturing. A nd that is a term of art that means you strip it down to a frame. S o, there is no requirement in the statute if you do an interior modification or whatever that you have to meet the requirement.
>> The re

- manufacturing of the rail vehicle is not that uncommon that's what I was saying. >> Well, defining what re

- manufacturing is

-- >> That would be

-- >> I think Dennis has

-- >> the D. O. T. has a definition. I t has to do with it started way back when they did
re
- manufacturing of buses it has to do with money essen tially. You get money to do
re
- manufacturing from the federal government only if you go to a certain level. And what it says is stripped down to the frame. S o you have nothing left by the actual overall frame, that's re

- manufacturinganything less than that is not

re
- manufacturing doesn't trigger the requirements this is statutory not regulatory.
>> Where is that Dennis? >> Dennis: I t's in part 2B of the ADAAG

-- I mean of the ADA itself. I t talks about re

- manufacturing and specifically says things lik e, you don't have to add a lift to an existing vehicle and so forth. >> I mean, I am following

-- this is Frank again I am following along with what

-- we are looking at for buses 30 by 48 they add dimensions depending on the entry point. You know. I mea n, we can come up and say 32 by 54 and put the numbers in the 32 by 59 to add for maneuvering space. B ut I still wonder if you put a number in there, if you are limiting yourself. Typically, you know, it all depends on the car layout. I f you wind up lay ing out the car the seating space turns out you have 60 inches in there you get 60 inches of space even if you don't need that much. You are going to make sure that you have enough maneuvering space to get in and out.So, you know it's not always a matte r of I am

trying to make the space as small as possible. It's your trying to maximize the amount of seats you can put in the rail car and depending how the seats layout. You are left with saying that I got 50 inch space or maybe 60 inch space that's my two options. E ither the seat is there or it's not there. S ometimes you wind up with a little bit more than you need sometimes it's a minimum that you need. I know you are

-- we are trying to specify a minimum. I get nervous when you put a number on for the maneuvering space. It's hard to explain where exactly maneuvering space is. H ow far does it extend through the vehicle. I t all the way across the vestibule it all the way across the aisle? I don't know. I mean, like I said, the way we typically do it I don't know if you have been involved in evaluating new equipment Dennis but don't you
-- if you specified a common wheelchair and said this is the dimensions these are the spaces you could go into the car and them straight that you can get in and out of therewithout a 5,000

- step right angle turn that

would be kind of what you are looking for. I f you had to do what I am suggesting how would you do it Dennis.
>> Dennis: T he problem that we ran into, this was exactly the thing in the old the current b us rule which says, you have to have a space for this

-- for the wheelchair in the bus, you have to have the width of a door a ramp or a lift. A nd then it says you have to have sufficient maneuvering space to get there. F rom the door to the space. W hat we had is a lot

-- what we had is lots and lots of problems people trying to figure out what it
was. A nd one of them was the box approach. But the box approach assumes that a wheelchair is square rectangle it's not. Something in which you couldn't physi cally move the box through might be perfectly accessible. T he other thing that complicates it is that there is

-- you know, we have eliminated this definition although the D. O. T. rule we have eliminated the Access Board eliminated the definition of the commonwheelchair because it was being misused in

the wrong direction. T he purpose of the common wheelchair definition originally was to set a size and weight requirement for what you had to accommodate and what was happening is the transit agencies were using it to exclude people from services to get them off the service because their chair didn't actually meet the requirement even though they could fit in the bus or van perfectly well. So D. O. T. still has the definition of the common wheelc hair. T he problem of course is that that definition which worked for a while doesn't work anymore. Alot of these four

- wheel scooters don't quite need it. There are a whole bunch of things that don't meet the common definition of the wheelchair. We have to sort of define what it is, if you say a common wheelchair or let's say, for example, securement people are talking about the WC19 wheelchair most people don't have that wheelchair. T he vast majority of people in the world aren't

-- don't have a brand new wheelchair with theso
- called transportation package. S o, trying

to define

-- that's why we were hoping that maybe the IDeA Center would come up with
a
-- I think Ed said they are actually working on some kind of a template or a virtual

-- I am not s ure what you call it a visualization guide where you can actually maneuver the wheelchair through and maneuver it like a wheelchair. W heelchairs don't move side ways very well. S ometimes people use the box model they sort of push it around and maneuver i t and realize, yeah, the box fits through the door, and you can get it in through the space but the wheelchair can't actually maneuver that way.
>> Maybe it weighs 600 pounds >> It's a real problem of trying to get a clear performance or a clear specificat ion and the answer we came up with in all of these things is you have to do a combination of both. O therwise it's not going to work.
>> Yes. I was just wondering I am just visualizing it myself this is Frank again if I would do it I would make a cube and thendefine the wheel base and put some limits on

maneuverability and the fact that it is a cube and not really the

-- what you might have provide conservatism in, you know, or more equipment being able to fit through the area >> I think 600 pounds that s hould take people from moving it side ways.
>> Once you say, you know, this is the wheels and you can only pivot a certain way it limits you to working things perfectly side ways. S o, I don't know, if I am making a mobility device and majority of majority of mobility devices I am guessing would be based on what a wheelchair can do and better if you

-- film selling a mobility device I am going to make something more maneuverable in a chair realizing more space is designed with a wheelchair in mind. S o if you could

-- >> Dennis: T his is Dennis. W hat we found is the wheelchair in

-- this goes all the way back to the 1970's the wheelchair manufacturers are not interested in designing something that's transit compatible.
>> The answer is most people aren't ridingtransit we don't care we will make it according

to what we want to make it. T hat's where you get strange large small peculiar maneuvering devices because the wheelchair manufacturers aren't building to that. P lus, if you go to buy a wheelchair in your local supplier, that supplier is probably going to want to sell you the highest, you know, the Cadillac version not the Chevy. You probably are going to want the

-- you are going to look at the chair, even if you were to asked the supplier does this chair fit on my buses that supplier isn't going to have a clue. (LAUGHTER) >> Or he is going to smile and go why
sure. (LAUGHTER)
>> The other side of the coin if you have something like I use a manual chair every ounce counts if I have to push it with my shoulders every day I refuse that that's about a pound and a half of the weight of the chair.
>> That's right.
>> Blair: T his is Blair. A s frank wastalking I was thinking along the same lines.

If you are coming from the

-- from the manufacturing side and the railroad side, engineers like to have and designers for that matter like to have some reasonable constraints. B ecause what you find if you don't have some constraints then people wander all over the place in the design process. A nd when you look at

-- if you look at ASTM every test has a fixture or something that is defined. Y ou have to build the condition according to the

-- test method you build the condition and then you perform the test. A nd I know that no one wa nts to lock into anything that's over constraining. B ut from a

-- from a

-- the hope that you get it right the first time standpoint, it would be really wonderful, I think if we could do something along the lines of what frank suggested we have a cubic me asure, we add some wheel geometry to it that makes it so it's not like it's on casters and they can't, you know, pull in and suddenly move 90 degrees side ways which is never going to cap.>> Casters. >> Yet I have seen that thing done you take the box

-- if the box was floating on air you could put it anywhere but you couldn't put it on wheels doing that you bring it back to a point of realism. We could get wrapped around the axle trying to define what it is. But I think the goal would have to be you know in taking something out of the computer generated world and into what can often be a lot faster than the hardware world. Would be
awesome. To be able to go through and, again, at least get very much in the ball mark with the device like that. I think we are always at risk no matter what we did, what we do if we brought in 20 folks and said please let's try it out, number 18 or 19 may come in with the newest scooter that has the worst case or maybe worse than the worst case dimensions we planned for and suddenly doesn't fit and then what do you do? You need to lean back on the regulation, of course, and that's the hard part. >> Dennis: T his is Dennis that's why wetried to sort of walk a fine line between the

performance and a specific number specification and do a little bit of both. Because we are never going to design a vehicle that's going to accommodate you know 100% of the mobility devices. I come from California and there is a big rehab center down there called Rancho Los Amigos they are riding around on motorized journeys they are lying around on a journey lying out full length that are 6 feet long. You are never going to accommodate that on a vehicle I'm sorry. Those guys go all over on the streets. A nd they go out and go to bars and restau rants, but we have to assume that we are not going to accommodate everybody. Everybody

-- every time you try to define something like a common wheelchair, you find somebody who doesn't

-- who doesn't meet that requirement. A nd pretty soon you get a whole bunch of those people so I think you really have to be careful about trying to

-- you need to nail down a little bit have some flexible room. Remember, there isalways the equivalent facilitation provision D.

O. T. actually has a process for awarding the m, D. O. T. has a process where you apply for facilitation. T hat gives you wiggle room with coming up with a better idea and presumably those ideas then get folded into the next round of regulation or there is a D. O. T. issues these advisory notices whic h are essentially modifications of the regulation that say, here you can do this instead or you can do something like this and provide a better flexibility, justice doesn't do that. Y ou are stuck with a lot of things in the building world that you are not stuck with in the vehicle world. >> Blair: T his is Blair I am with you there Dennis. I t is a catch 22 it's the best description I can give it. I t's difficult, I think

-- I think it's safe for me to speak for maybe Ed and frank if they will allow me. I t's frustrating as a provider you want to do the very best. O f course everyone knows you have got the other overwhelming pressure to put as many people as you can in a vehicle doit all safely. T he last thing any of us wants is

somebody to show up and no t be able to get into the space and yet we think we have done a good job and done our best to accommodate and that's

-- the risk is always there that you will have someone or some organization that wants to lean back on

-- on a number for the sake of exclu sion but I think more realistically from my perspective at Amtrak at least, it's

-- it's to say, yes, we have met that, maybe we went a little beyond it but if the performance is

-- let's say 54 inches for the length of the space, with maneuvering space al lowance, when the maneuvering space allowance is gelatinous, it becomes very difficult

-- (LAUGHTER) >> Like Jell

- o. >> We did provide maneuvering space but here is a different device that almost fits. You know almost firsting into the space is lik e the airplane my old boss used to say, the airplane almost made it to the runway. (LAUGHTER)>> It just, you know, almost doesn't work.

That is the perpetual quandary that we find ourselves in. Wanting to do well and not always being able to do that. But where do you draw that line. N one of us want

-- I don't think any of us want to be in the line I don't want to be provider drawing that line. But, yet, it is a real world of space and the line has to be somewhere. >> Fortunately Amtrak is one of th e ones that want people to make it. T here are operators out there that use these regulations to exclude people. Every time you put something

-- I have actually seen taking tape measures and measure you before they let you on. >> I have never seen that. I would hate to be the person that had to go out and pull a tape measure out on someone >> I wasn't real happy when they did it to me I know my chair is well under >> This is Linda Martin about the measuring thing D. O. T. actually a couple of years ago to ok out the standard 30 by 48 anddefinition of the wheelchair and there is a

definition I don't have it memorized verbatim but it's usually 3 or 4

- wheeled device used for mobility or

-- there is a specific definition but the reason it did that was just what you were just saying was that entities were using that 30 by 48 dimension to exclude people from riding on buses and other vehicles even when they would fit. S o, that was the reason that that happened. S o, that may open up what you all decide to do her e. O r at least keep that in mind as you are deciding what to do here. >> Linda, do you know the reference for that. >> Can I find it.
>> That would be great. >> I don't have it off the top of my head but

-- >> 49 CFR 37.3.
>> 3 or 5. C an't remember. Exa ctly. >> Actually we are discussing this getting into a space, I think anybody that fits through the vestibule and get through the car wouldbe able to maneuver just about into any space >> Dennis Cannon: T hat's I didn't think that it's really by using th e concept of when you got con fine on three sides you add extra 6 inches for maneuvering space if that's the case if it's in the current or proposed wheelchair space for the buses, basically works as long as we maneuver

-- as long as we massage the numbers that we want. Going from 54 by 32 and I think that

-- remember, all of this is going to be subject to public comment when it comes out in the proposed rule. By that people people will have an opportunity, I think to really look at the numbers, do some d esigning and you will get comments from people saying that it doesn't work or you should do it this way or what not. T hose are the kind of things that helps regulations confirm. A nd no regulation is going to include everybody at the end. We have a curre nt requirement in the building for a 32 inch clear opening for a doorway. I have a friend who had a 34

- inch wide wheelchair she was kind of heavy. M y house has36

- inch doors she could get in and out fine

but she was basically couldn't get into a building that was designed

-- defined as accessible that's just the way it works.
>> You almost have to set some sort of percentile has to be met you are never going to get 100%.
>> Frank: I think the extra couple inches does help you maybe that's something that we could do too. I have to tell you from my perspective if I had a box with requirements for maneuverability it's a lot easier for me to say you have to make that box with that maneuverability get into and out of that space just to add the extra 4 or 5 in ches on there depending on the path may work. I n our equipment you said if you get it through the door opening you should be good. B ut on our computer

-- commuter rail we have 50

- inch wide door openings that's to get people on and off the train as quickl y as possible >> I think the box you build should be remote controlled so you can separate byremote. T hat way nobody can cheat. (LAUGHTER)
>> The restrictions I'm sorry Dennis. T he restrictions that you put on it are the maneuverability you say it h as two fixed wheels and two pivoting wheels in the front next you need dimensions and locations now you have restricted the motion of that vehicle you can create something like that in a CAD model and maneuver it around even in a design phase you can say, look, there is no way to get in there reasonably because this thing doesn't pivot that way move perfectly side ways you have to

-- you have a pretty good way of checking to make sure that it's done it's relatively an easy requirement to put on a car builde r, this is what we want you to do. T his vehicle that I defined and constrained has to be able to get into that space easily. T hat's something that you can check. We can put the extra couple ins on there and hope it covers everything it may or it might n ot. I n either case you are liable to miss something because you are not going toget everything. B ut if you define that device

now it becomes a standard number

-- when it goes out on in NPRM people make comments you fine tune it make it better. N umber 2 maybe it's now a design goal for people designing mobility devices to say, Gee, I am going to design a mobility device it has to be at least maneuverable as this so people can get on to the transportation systems.
>> Most mobility devices come with

-- whe elchairs don't come with warnings saying these aren't to be seating devices in a vehicle. >> Right. >> I expect their attorneys had them put that information in there >> I am sure.
>> No offense Linda. >> None taken. (LAUGHTER) >> I am ab solutely sure you are right on that one but

-- >> Blair: T his is Blair. W hat I would

-- just listening to this, let me throwsomething out and let's see what everyone

thinks about it. We have

-- we talked about 32 by 54 that's information that we got fr om Ed 32 by 59 looks like it's included by default the footprint of the wheelchair and maneuvering. B ut here is

-- let me throw this out. 3 2 by 54 with maneuvering space that's the nebulous part. A nd then begin to address that the maneuvering space may overlap the movement of the vehicle by 6 inches instead of 9 inches above the floor at 11 inches above the floor. D oes that sound like a place to start? >> I think you are

-- yeah it sounds like

-- it's a starting point that seems like it might work. T he dimensions might need to be jiggled some.
>> Obviously we won't be able to talk more singly about the dimensions until we try to plug information into real conditions. I do think that it would be very good if we in the process if it's within our purview to try to define or suggest the definition of

-- of a of a geometric device a cubic device with fixedaxle and wheel locations and maneuverability

which I think would by default capture a large percentage of people and devices and just
so
-- again, thinkin g about the engineering side so that we have a reasonable way of testing and saying, okay, you are able to maneuver into this space or you are not you have to do something else. You got to come up with a different design that allows for maneuvering into t he space and I wouldn't I don't think it would be fair to make it a center axle with casters on the end because

-- with casters on the end someone mentioned earlier it can turn in its own dimension if you are fixed axle with steering axles at some dimensio n away from the fixed axle in that 32 by 54 dimension you are going to create a strictly conservative device that helps define that maneuvering space that you need. A nd then, where can things overlap and that sort of thing. S o, that would be my thinking. I don't know maybe someone from the board is that something that is in our realm to do, to define the measuring device? A nd mythinking is one, it gives us a design tool but

also maybe it gives a way of prohibiting the kind of restrictions of simple mea suring that Linda mentioned before. W here maybe a device was longer than the 48 and someone was restricted but if you have a test device that is defined then that sort of blows the lid off of that activity. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Blair this is Melissa Ander son you could come up with a perform

-- performance specification.
>> This is Dennis I was dropped now I am back on.
>> One of the things I think about is how you actually

-- we could define the cube rather solid how you can define maneuverability some cha irs have like mine is mid wheel some have rear wheel drive with casters in the front some have front wheel drive with casters in the back and maneuverability changes dramatically I don't know how you define how that is >> Bob Reuter the four

- wheeled scoote rs you should define it based on those.>> Frank: This is a tough one standard

wheelchair may not exist you have two fixed wheels in the back casters in the front and there is maneuverability constraints based on that arrangement. I f you have a middle

-- mid axle chair you are going to be a lot more maneuverable than that if you have something else you may be less maneuverable I think that's a good starting point.
>> The problem with that every manufacturer runs down to the local pharmacy and buys the che apest thing they fine and call that the wheelchair >> No, no, no I am saying we define the spacing between the fixed axle and the swivel points we define you know the height, distance, and then you know, we try to encompass most built wheelchairs, remember we are only defining maneuverability we are not defining the chair so you could have something that's slightly bigger and more maneuverable slightly smaller but from my point of view if you don't do this it makes it difficult to really evaluate whether yo u meetthe requirements or not. Taking a tape

measure and showing you had 59 inches here maybe that's not the whole story you can't get down the hallway to get there in order to maneuver in the space. S o, I think

-- you know, I think what Blair is saying is a great idea. We can write this up and come up with something I am sure. A nd then you know, just like you said the NPRM process gives us comments and people may add, fine tune whatever cubic we come up with and we have something that is really good. I mean, Blair as saying before our intention is to make it as accessible as possible you can't really always tell just by measuring a couple of dimensions so what we typically do is get a wheelchair and maybe put a box around it and make it maneuver to ge t in there >> That's what you get down to

-- >> MELISSA ANDERSON: This is Melissa Anderson. B lair, I'm sorry I tried to talk before you can write a performance specification we can't address how to enforce it that's outside of our scope, but you canchoos e to write a performance spec or

performance standard that addresses the end result that you want to accomplish. >> Thanks Melissa. T his is Blair. I think the key thing is if we do that, if we define this measuring device that you can

-- can you take fro m the entrance of the vehicle to the parking space and then into the restrooms and things and it has the built in maneuvering restrictions that are realistic that are not necessarily the best case, because as we said before the best case would be a center

-- center fixed axle with casters on the end that can go anywhere. You can put

-- that kind of device is marvelous. B ut if we make it restrictive enough and in doing that, consider

-- make sure we don't miss the geometry of the mid axle sort of tradition al wheelchair maneuverable device because you will get The Arc swing the diagonals of the corners of the box are going to be very different from one type to the other. D o a little

-- do a little study to make sure that that dimension whether it's a rectan gle or maybe itbecomes a multifaceted space for the sake of

maneuverability so that we can do

-- we can do testing and design and verification based on a common device that is encompassing lots of

-- lots of geometries. >> That device has to be separated both forward and backwards.
>> Yes.
>> Then it would encompass more geometry.
>> Right. I f you have say a power chair that has the front wheels are powered and casters on the back that's going to be a little different geometry than going the other way
aro und. I think that you would want to take that device and go in one direction and then go back out again, turn it around and come in the other way. F or people that have driven forklifts with steering in the rear, or devices like that, it's a very differen t dynamic than going the other way around. A nd you always wonder what is the back end doing what is it hitting because of the odd geometry back there.>> So, for the sake of moving forward, can

we
-- can we move forward like that at least for now? I will be glad to draft something up or everyone's man >> That's a good idea give us a strawman to play with.
>> Okay. I will do that. Marsha: B lair, this is Marsha Mazz question for you do you have capability to do anything in 3D modelin g? >> Blair: Yes.
>> Marsha: I am wondering if there is a way to work with Ed Steinfeld to extract his data to develop a 3D model? >> Blair: I was going to ask

-- I can stumble through our 3D program I was going to ask one of our really good guys if he could do that for me, and I am pretty sure it's not that big of a deal to establish the the constraints on the model. S o that it would behave with those restrictions in other words, it wouldn't just slide suddenly 90 degrees
or
-- >> Marsha: I would t hink that you wouldneed some kind of access to the data, and Ed

of course doesn't make that easy. (LAUGHTER) >> Marsha: B ut there might be a way to work with them to get them to develop the model with your input. >> Blair: W hat I will probably do is work is the dimensions that Ed has already provided.
>> Marsha: T hat's a single dimension he has data points for every individual that he has tested. >> Blair: O kay. R ight. I am with you there. I am thinking about it from a starting point to try to c ome up with some dimensions. You know what, I will contact Ed and see what we could do.
>> Frank: I would think you try to look at the standard wheelchair fixed axle and swivel axle okay maneuverability with a wheel base this is fixed axle swivel axle th is is box. You can look at other equipment to see if it's more or less maneuverable than that maybe he can ask that question. I don't think it's going to be easy for him to say, I think it's easy foranybody to say, this particular type of

restraint are going

-- constraints are going to allow all of the mobility devices to work. That's going to be a tough one.
>> Yes, this is Blair again, Ed, I think that you are
-- Frank I'm sorry you are absolutely correct. H ere is what I envision. W hat I would imagi ne. I f we do this right, we get the spaces right in the design process, then a large percentage of people that come in using devices that we are seeing commonly now with the possible exception with some of the scooters can come in to a car because it's no t always about seating space for a transit authority it's about dwell time let's get on the train and go. C ome into the car, find their space or their seat or whatever is relevant to them. G et in it, doors close train goes. There may be situations where some of the less maneuverable devices are going to have to did a little parallel parking because of the outside geometry of and steering geometry that they have. B ut if we can keep that percentage very small, then

-- but you canstill get in without doin g a ridiculous number

of back and forths then I would say, well, okay that's reasonable. B ut I think that we would like to capture the as large a group as possible to just be able to go in and very quickly maneuver into a space and maneuver out of that sp ace and off the train again at the end of the trip. >> Yeah, I would think a long wheel base is going to get you that lack of maneuverability.
>> That's (inaudible).
>> Yeah I am saying if you make the wheel base relatively long most wheelchairs are less t han that you are going to have a tighter constraint than actually exists and you will cover other types of devices that you weren't particularly envisioning but I think that's a real good way of doing it. T hese wheel base look like 15, 20 inches maybe som ething like that. If you require it to be like 30 inches you should be covering a large majority of the wheel devices one fixed axle one swivel. You can only pivot about one axle. >> My wheel base is 17 almost 18 inches Ihave a traditional type chair.
> > That's kind of what I was saying maybe a little bit longer than that is what we fess identify. F or sure, you should

-- >> My chair is very short.
>> Yours is a short one I am not sure what the dimension is. T hat maybe Ed could help us out with that may be add an inch or two to add a margin of safety.
>> But I think that it

-- in deciding what the final recommended numbers might be we would like to see with this defined device maneuvering in with relative ease and then and if you go out to an extreme condi tion, of some of the scooters, can that device still get in but maybe takes a little bit more effort to get in there but it's doable you are not excluding just because of the steering geometry. I t just may mean it takes a

-- it's like me trying to paralle l park it takes a while.
>> Gary could get into space with that wheelchair we would be here all day. M e too. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: Well, let me do this, I will writethis up and try to make it as logical as

possible to see if we can build a 3D model h ere that can help us add some of those dimensions and we will come back and chew on this one again. >> This is Linda. I had a question. >> Yes.
>> Linda: B asically, the question dealing with the request and Blair's request for the wheelchair definition w here that's from. Should I send that because there is

-- the rule that talks about that there is also FDA guidance talking about wheelchair spaces. Well that's what I was asking Melissa Anderson should I send it to you to distribute or how do I do that
> > MELISSA ANDERSON: Why don't you send it to Paul Beatty or RVAAC? S end it to RVAAC @ access

- board.gov and Paul will take care of it.
>> Okay. T hanks. >> As we museum forward I want to ask a question Bob Reuter.
>> Okay, Bob.>> Bob: A re we going to be defining

number of spaces for example, or is that beyond our purview? >> I think that's a realm. >> That's the scoping provision that you need to establish how many positions there are and what cars and how many doors and so forth that's all part of the s pec you have technical specifications and scoping provisions as well.
>> Bob: T hat was the point that I wanted to bring up I have been reviewing a lot of plans over the past month or so it seems library the newer the car the fewer the spaces. And I know the regs said no more than two they all seem to be putting just one in now. I am wondering if maybe we should up it to I am looking as just some two no more than four. >> Dennis: N o more than two is statutory. You can't get around that. B ut I think it should be for every other thing inner

- city rail it's two my opinion it should be two for everything>> Apparently there are a number of

commuter operators that are getting cars with only one and they are calling themselves inner

- city >> This is Linda I am not sure it's correct. There is a requirement for the space to transfer and there is a requirement for space to park and stay in the wheelchair. A nd not more than two per car is (inaudible). I n the statute. I think the reason they are doing less Dennis I am sure is familiar phase in the number of wheelchair spaces Amtrak was initially trying to meet that by having two spaces because it's one per car you are saying one space per car of the train set. A nd Amtrak was initially trying to meet that by retro fitting cars to have two faces on

-- two spaces on some car. >> One per train roll.
>> Yes, eventually they rolled out new trains cars they have one per car as opposed to two every other car. >> but the problem is now more and more people are traveling and people are travelingtogether. >> Right. I t is a problem.
>> This is Blair. A s I recall, too, initially the number of

-- the number of spaces had equal the number of cars per train with no more than two of those spaces in any one car. The restriction o f two was to prevent authority from coming in and declaring that half of this car is accessible. A nd you got 10 wheelchair spots there. >> Cattle car roll.
>> Cattle car effect.
>> The original requirement or the some of the commuter folks wanted to make a single car for nip to be the accessible car and be done with it that's where the cattle car issue came up. T he other issue about number of spaces per coach cars and what not had to do with the interim requirement that is already long past didn't actuall y apply to new cars. I t
was
-- it was to make sure by the time whatever the date was you had that number of spaces it meant that you had a choice you could buy new cars or you could retrofit someof the older cars and take out some seats

which is what Amt rak did. B ut that provision is gone now, it's long past in the requirement now is for all new cars. A nd, again, inner

- city it's at least one no more than two. You are right access seating spaces a lot of companies are putting in one. W hich is

-- which is why I think you should change it to two, period. >> This is Blair. F rom the other end of the spectrum, what we run up against is there is a lot of cases where two seats two spaces become very valuable. We have a couple of people traveling together. A nd with that right now the definition is a space to park a wheelchair and stay in it and another a seat to transfer to and fold and store wheelchairs. So, you could have

-- you could have two people arrived in wheelchairs. W ith the new thinking be two sp aces to park a wheelchair and stay in it and what would we do as far as fold and store. I will talk about fold and store more I don't see a lot of wheelchairs these days they can be folded.>> Wheelchairs are getting to the point

where nobody folds them a nymore. T hey can't be.
>> From a

-- >> This is Dennis.
>> I'm sorry, go ahead Dennis. >> The original thing was the two referred to each type. I n other words, one but not more than two parking spaces and one but not more than two transfer spaces. A nd in the regulation we said, a transfer seat can be a normal seat it doesn't have to be any special thing. W hat that means is basically there is a double seat on one side of your car, the train car, and a space on the other side with the wheelc hair. S omebody can transfer into the regular train seat it doesn't require anything special to do that. T he place to store the wheelchair is the tricky part because you are right, a lot of chairs don't fold or the wheels come off they collapse but so def ining the space, the original intent was to define the space that was wide enough to fit a manual folding standard chair in, and somehowsqueeze it into a space where you

could

-- where you would normally put the lug gag. You are right, these days I am no t sure that you could define the space two spaces to store a wheelchair if you assume that the wheelchairs are not going to be folded. I don't think you are going to be able to do that.
>> The one thing with storage it doesn't have to have the other ameni ties like windows and things like that.
>> That's right. B ut now

-- and now I
see
-- there doesn't seem to be on Amtrak there doesn't seem to be any restriction unlike airlines on the size of carry on luggage I have seen people bring luggage on to the tra ins that you know have a hard time fitting in the space and sometimes it's quite a bit of space it's a big open space one of those be people moth quote quarry on suitcases take up all of the space. **NOTE: B ehemoth >> There is one that defines the size >> Probably as effective as the limitationsin the aircraft. (LAUGHTER) >> It stops at BMI air for the Marc trains with the luggage going to the airport. >> Blair: T he PRIIA recommendations were for two spaces. A nd from a

-- when you are
on reserve trains versus showing up, when you are dealing with reserve spaces, the railroad has the opportunity to get the space ready. And one of the things that I was thinking was that if we have

-- if we can make the vehicles so they are more flexible, then there is the potential of having the best of both worlds. >> Doesn't the regulations allow for folding seats? >> Blair: Yes. B ut if we are talking about clear floor space and things like that, then how you

-- how you achieve that, I guess is what we have to m ake sure that we are clear
on. >> Dennis: Yes, this is Dennis in the bus realm when you are talking about foldingseats typically it's the side facing seats behind

the wheel well which you flip up as long as they are fairly thin, and whatever, you can still get the space requirement. W ith a chair

-- the problem with things like Amtrak is that you are talking about in many cases as opposed to even commuter rail, you are talking about somebody who is going to be sitting in one of those seats for maybe a very long period of time. You don't want the kind of seat that you provide in the bus or in a rail vehicle that is not going to make it in terms of the comfort needed for that kind of seat. S o, you are a lot more restricted when you on what kinds of quot e fold up seats if you look at the seats that are the spaces in a over the road bus for example, that are, you know, fairly comfortable seats, in order to get the one wheelchair space, that's actually two requirements. B ut for each wheelchair space, they have the seats that sort of fold up and then slide back against each other and collapse. A nd what you end up is losing six seats for every wheelchair space. A nd I amnot sure that that is something that

-- that

the inner

- city rail folks are going to be very happy with. >> Blair: D ennis, this is Blair I can tell you they won't be very happy at all. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: We have the

-- there is an acursed law that says we have to behave like a private business. A nd yet, we are the receivers of federal money so we have to also be accommodating and that creates a lot of conflict sometimes. B ut I think that most of these things can be resolved with creative design so long as the regulations that we are using are broad enough to allow for that. And, I me an, that gets back to some of the conversation about the limitation of the number of spaces. I don't think

-- the limitation obviously was to prevent an authority from creating a cattle car and saying, okay, everyone in a wheelchair you have to sit here. Wasn't really thinking about the concept of wow well my friend and I both happen to be in wheelchairs are travelingtogether. W hy would I be in this car and they

are in the next car sort of defeats a big part of the fun of traveling together. I t could b e three people or four people. A nd I would

-- I would like for us to have the flexibility to accommodate people and yet when we don't need that much accommodation, to have the opportunity to still recover that revenue from the seats. A nd that pressure is

-- is pry on every seat space of Amtrak it's probably especially high on the long distance trains where they tend to be the greatest money losers depending how you do the math.
>> Yes. >> So it is again we are back to the catch 22 of actually wanting peo ple to come and ride our trains and enjoy the trip and come back over and over again, and then having that ugly evil bottom line that we have to deal with. S o, back to the wheelchair storage. D o we need to give a further definition then has been done in the past for what the folded wheelchair space is? T hey arrive in a fold willing chair

-- and then

-- folding chair.The trickiest part of that if we go away from

having the fold and store, if it's two wheelchair parking spaces, and a seat to transfer to a nd store a wheelchair if we are aware from the folding wheelchair condition, then we are in to take ago lot of seats out of a vehicle. Even in a car car it reduces it's potential obviously. W hat are we going do with that.
>> This is Linda. I think that you can take out the folded wheelchair concept because that's in the statute. I mean, I think that perhaps your second wheelchair space could be the space that the folded a folded wheelchair would go in perhaps, you know, but you can't take out that conce pt completely. A nd the other thing, you may remember this, we just went through an exercise trying to figure out, you know, what was reasonable for a space for a folded wheelchair for the bi

- level cars. A nd there is no dimension in the guidelines so to t he extent this group could come up with a number that would be great. We gave
-- wegave the the number based on the various

input from Amtrak and others but we are not sure if it's the correct number but we can, you know, maybe that could be the place th at we start in this group.
>> I am looking at the diagram of the superliner coach at the moment. A nd it's sort of like you have got three spaces total, it can be either two people in wheelchairs one transfer or two transfers and one wheelchair. If you un derstand what I am talking about here. >> Blair: Yes, but at the end of the day in that existing condition you should have

-- if two people arrive in wheelchairs at a minimum you should have a space for someone who wants to stay in the wheelchair and a sp ace for someone to transfer and store a wheelchair. A nything we do beyond that is great.
>> This looks like three spaces. Y ou can have two people stay in the wheelchair have one storage or one person stay in the wheelchair and have great space for twost orage I am going with what the drawing

looks like >> Twofolded wheelchairs could go in the one park wheelchair space >> Right.
>> Right. I know the car that you are talking about. T here

-- they are across from each other.
>> Right.
>> Um

- hmm. I am not s ure which one it is Blair. >> Lower level superliner coach. >> Frank: B lair, the current regulations for inner

- city require you to have one wheelchair parking area and one space for somebody to transfer to? W hich could be a fixed seat. And one storage l ocation.
>> Yes. >> Frank: A ll right you are asking if you go with two parking areas you need two transfer seats and two wheelchair storage locations right? I am just trying to clarify it that's what you are asking right? T hat's what we are discussing.>> Blair: M y assumption would be that

that would be the case. T hat if

-- that you would have that capacity. T hese the logic. >> Bob: J ust wondering if three is the way to do it where you have either or one space becomes a barking

-- becomes a parking
s pace or a sitting space a parking space or storage space >> You are saying Ed if it's a single parking space and you remain in the wheelchair, and up to

-- up to three

-- say everyone transferred out. Y ou could transfer into three locations, and still have room to store wheelchairs? >> Right. T hat would probably work that way. B ut it wouldn't

-- it would only be set up as two unless all three transfer. A nd then I don't know how third person would transfer because then there would be storage space would be occupied. T hat wouldn't work. >> Blair: I

-- >> Dennis: T his is deny ins I wouldn't assume the person transfers and then stores fold and stores his or her own wheelchair.There is going to have to be an assumption at

some point the conductor gets in volved in the process.
>> Well, if it's anything like me my chair never goes the length of my arm away from
me. >> This is Linda. You know, what we have run up against here are people who use wheelchair as a mobility device ongoing like I do and apparentl y like you do. A nd then there are elderly sort of person who a wheelchair is is used to get them on the train. They are given the seat the conductor get gets the wheelchair and folds it and stores it so there is a little bit of both. >> Frank: H ow much of that happens this is Frank I am just curious a lot of the elderly is using mobility devices that are not wheelchairs they take up at least a the space of a wheelchair.
>> Yes, a lot of elderly are using scooters.
>> Frank: Yes I am saying I don't know how often somebody is folding up a wheelchair to get it out of the way.>> Blair: T his is Blair we have a lot

-- a lot

of folks that show up that come all the way to train side and even use one of the wayside lifts to get up to train level where there is no level boarding. A nd then they will either go in on wheelchair or they will ambulate into the space. B ut they are

-- their range is very limited. S o, once they are on board, they may not even bring the wheelchair with them it may be for boarding gett ing from the distance from the station to the car and then back again. B ut in the train it's maybe not so bad >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Blair this is Melissa we are 5 minutes out from finishing up. >> Blair: Yes.
>> We have 20 more minutes to go. (LAUGHTE R) >> I want to make a comment about the wheelchair inner city rail is different from transit there is lots

-- we get complaints from the people all the time FRA no offense Blair, but you know where where they do show up with their manual chairs because th e thingabout the scooter is it requires a transport so

there is a lot of elderly people pushing them around in manual chairs to get them on trains and they sit and ride through the train they do what they do and they push back.
>> I am wondering how many people ride commuter trains most of the people I have seen are people that regularly ride commuters most people have a system down.
>> I think it's less with computer

-- commuter more with inner

- city rail >> I can't see transferring on a commuter train. I f you are going to be in a seat 4 or 5 hours you might want to get out of the chair because hopefully it will be more comfortable.
>> Blair: O kay. Well, we are right up against the 3 o'clock hour we did manage to get one point at least with ink against i t today. >> Wheelchair storage have we inked that or still thinking on that.
>> Blair: W heelchair storage the question remains, I think we should define that. I think Linda's point that would be

-- I know wefumbled with that and I think 12 or 12 and a

h alf inches was a number that or 11 and a half was a dimension that the Henry Dreyfus human scale provided many moons ago and then when you look at manufacturers some have it some don't. B ut I

-- I think we do need to define that.
>> if you define it as 24 you get twofolded chairs or one not folded chair. T hat's the deal. >> This is Linda, except with the folded, stored wheelchair you might have a height dimension as well you might you are going to assume you are going to put it in a closed in area one bei ng the bi

- level struggled with if you just if you fold the wheelchair up against a wall you run the risk of it flapping over so they have to figure out a way to secure them. >> Twofolded >> Blair: L inda, you bring up an interesting comment. I was looking back over the older drawings for the Acela and the fold and the stored

-- folded storage space for wheelchairs on the Acela was intended tohouse two. S o, I have to go back and look at

the dimensions I think it was at least 24 inches. B ut so

-- that

-- and then what we did is above that becomes luggage storage which is the space is used one way or the other. B ut where we can obviously where we can stack space and stack use you know it takes the pressure off of the space on the train. Well just for the sake of having something to put there, why don't we put 24 inches as a minimum. T he trick that we are going to have to look at some of these things is the length of the folding device which, again, can be all over the place

-- >> It's not going to be shorter than it is when the person is in it probably.
>> Blair: Well it depends

-- >> if you have removable footrests it's quite a bit shorter. >> They are removable seats too. (LAUGHTER)
>> The ones that don't present the greatest problem with the width across the car you almost want to go to a longitudinal storagewhich gets back into the whole floor space

issues. B ut we can pick it up on the next trip. I want to give you folks some homework somehow. B ut I think right now I am the one with the homewor k. Does everyone have success to the PRIIA documents? >> No. >> We have been asking for it for a while we have never seen it.
>> I look it up on the Internet wait a minute let me find it. I found it on the Internet. And downloaded it's only 3 or 400 page s it's not a big deal. (LAUGHTER) >> Blair: I think we can glean the accessibility parts out of it >> Here it is PRIIA train set approved initial release PDF. >> Can you E

- mail the link to us? >> I don't have it

-- >> No I don't have the link I downlo aded it stuck it in my computer >> This is Melissa Shurland I can send thelink out.
>> Blair: I was going to offer to take it it's a PDF I think send it back to the board or distribution.
>> Is that just all text document? I think one of the things

-- > > It doesn't have many drawings it's mostly text one or two drawings but not many.
>> Yeah.
>> Maybe I have not flipped all the way through it. >> I think it's like

-- >> Pardon? I >> I think the accessibility part is like page 300 or something.
>> It's a very short document.
>> Maybe I was too lazy to look at the document. T he car drawings so that you have a sense of

-- >> It's in there I am looking for it as I look here as we speak here right near the end there is a drawings >> Melissa Shurland this is Marsha Mazz ifyou can excerpt the actionability information

and put it in a Word document that would be very helpful.
>> Okay. I will do that Marsha.
>> Thank you and then we can just add an alt tag to any figures that happen to be in it thank you. >> Al l right. Page 345. >> This is Blair, I would like folks to look at the PRIIA document, what I have done is I took that in its most conservative or liberal againing how you want to look at it, interpretation, and have applied it to a rail car with space fo r service animals, and there is a space that we need to define as well. W hat is a reasonable space. I thought about how big my dog was came up with a dimension. B ut and where the animal needs to be relative to the person that they are with. S o, I can d o that for next time. I n the meanwhile if folks look at PRIIA document so we can discuss that since that's work that's already been done, and I think we need to lean on that where it makes sense. A nd then, also, theinformation that Dennis pointed us to, I know

I need to go do a lot of homework and read that and back familiar with it but I would suggest everyone else do the same thing. Meanwhile

-- >> Of 126

-- all 526 pages? >> Blair: N o just

-- >> I have never seen that.
>> Just the ones with pictures

. (LAUGHTER) >> (inaudible).
>> The PRIIA thing has 526 pages >> Blair: D on't read the whole thing we need just the accessibility the other stuff will drive you crazy. S o, if everyone will look at that with the idea that we will try to pick down th rough that and again continue to fill in the blanks, I will write a strawman on the wheelchair space the parking space and maneuvering, and I will obligate to get that back out to the board so everyone can have it and chew on it well before the next meetin g. And hopefully also we will be able to sort out the issue around the floor plans and thingslike that so everyone can have access to them.
>> Okay. A nd do you want photographs of the exteriors of the various cars because I think I have a photograph of every car mentioned. >> Ed, I would only say it would be nice because if what I am finding is building this document it may become a very useful resource to add to. T hat's fine as far as I am concerned. B ut it's not necessary.
>> Well it makes it easy al l of the photographs that I sent you will belong to me I will put a copyright of my own and allow everybody to use it.
>> Makes life easier.
>> Would you like to add alt text to those if you give us a call I can tell you how >> I will send it to you as PDF or
-- >> No Bob that won't work for us.
>> the alt text for it. >> Bob, if you send it as a PDF we won't be able to make them accessible don't send any images that you don't feel are necessary because it's a lot of work to make theseaccessible. >> If I s ent you a jpg with a separate document with the alt text.
>> That's fine it has to be added. S o, just don't send us hundreds of photographs because we won't be able to make them accessible. >> I have 17 photographs

-- 17 (inaudible). >> Blair: A ll right. Any

-- from the Access Board folks? >> by the way the drawings of the cars are on page 204 to 207 in the PRIIA document. They only have one wheelchair this is a single level one okay. Looking at the wrong document. T his is a single level. T hat might be worth looking at even though it hasn't been put out yet.
>> Well

-- that is from any guidance from the folks at the Access Board before it's 3:08 by my clock.
>> I think we are good. I think Paul said the next meeting is on July 10 so we will talk agai n and Blair you and I will talk before then.>> Okay.
>> Okay. O n the bi

- level specs it's on 40 to 44. >> Chris Hart: M elissa we should try to figure out a time to chat. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Okay that's fine Chris thank you everyone.
>> It was a good cal l.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks Chris I appreciate that coming from you especially. O nly because you give Gary a hard time. (LAUGHTER) >> Listen, he deserves it. (LAUGHTER) >> He has all the

-- he needs all the help he can get there. O kay. T hank you very much. A nd have a nice summer.
>> Bye everybody. >> Operator. T hank you for your help today. P lease disconnect all lines. ( end of meeting.)