1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ ++++ WATER HEATER TEST PROCEDURE WORKSHOP

WEDNESDAY FEBRUARY 12, 1997

Theworkshopwas held inRoom 1E-245, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Jim Raba, Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT: JIM RABA MICHAEL MCCABE BRYAN BERRINGER ED LEVY CARL HILLER TIM BEGOSKE OTTO VAGO JOHN PAISLEY BILL HARRIGILL GEORGE M. KUSTERER STEVE ROSENSTOCK BRIAN DOUGHERTY JAMES MILLS WILBUR L. HAAG, JR. STANLEY LIU WILLIAM HUI RICHARD MILLER ALAN CAPE JIM LUTZ ANDY LOWENSTEIN DON ABRAMS JIM EARLEY MIKE PISTOLE JIM VAUGHN QUENTIN LOONEY DIANE MOOREFIELD R. DEAN MORRISON JACOB H. HALL WILLIAM M. PRYOR CARL ADAMS ADAM DUCH JOHN HOLT KIRSTIE KUMMER BERT KALISCH HAROLD HEISS TIMOTHY A. BERNADOWSKI, SR.

FRANK STANONICK



## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 (202)234-4433A-G-E-N-D-A Agenda Item Welcome by Facilitator Raba .......

Introductions ..............

First Hour Ratings for Storage-type Water Heaters Brian Dougherty ............. Carl Hiller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Instantaneous Water Heaters .......... Storge-type Water Heaters of Less Than 20 Gallons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Daily Hot Water Use and Thermostat Settings

Heat Pump Water Heaters and the Four Proposed Definitions ............



## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202): 3

. 13

. 21

. 32

118

158

198

225

234-4433 2

Page3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:00 a.m.) 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Good morning. Good to 4 see everybody here this morning. Welcome, welcome to 5 theDepartment of Energy Workshopon WaterHeater Test 6 Procedures. I trust everybody is settled in and ready 7 for a good discussion, good dialogue today. 8 My name is Jim Raba, I will be your 9 Facilitator for the day. Myrole is to remainneutral 10 and to help you focus on the task at hand, to get the 11 job done. As a Facilitator, just sowe are all clear. 12 I am not going express my ideas or evaluate yours. 13 Both ratherhelpyoudiscuss, bring out and contribute 14 your ideas. 15 Iwill be involved in the process, not the 16 substance. Iwill make suggestions how to proceedand 17 hopefully get the most out of our time and our 18 discussions today at the workshop. This is your 19 meeting. Mybeinga good Facilitator is difficult, so 20 please help me out. 21 And if you think I am pushing too hard or 22 guiding in thewrong way,please correct me and let me 23 know. I won't be defensive, but will make the 24 adjustments as necessary. And with your help, I'm 25 sure we will have a great meeting today. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-44334 1 So, welcome. I would like to turn the 2 meeting over to the Director of the Office of Codes 3 and Standards, Mr. Michael McCabe, for some opening 4 remarks. 5 MR. MCCABE: Good morning. I am going to 6 move up to the front. As Jim stated, I am Michael 7 McCabe. I'm the Director of the Office of Codes and 8 Standards here in the Department. I would like to 9 welcome you all here for this workshop. 10 We have here helping us staff from the 11 National Institute of Standards and Technology. As

.2 well as staff from the Federal Trade Commission, who 13 have been involved with test procedures and labeling 14 of water heaters for some years now. 15 We also have a number of interested 16 parties from a variety of organizations, 17 manufacturers,utilities, representatives from states 18 and others. Thepurpose of today's meeting is to deal 19 with the test procedures. We hadproposed amendments 20 to the test procedures some time ago, andwe have been 21 overwhelmed by the other smaller issues that we deal 22 with in the office for the last 18 months or so, and 23 that's standards. 24 So we are trying to now take, now that 25 we've had the process improvement effort on appliance 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-44335 

### 1 standards completed. Where we have established the 2 new procedures which we will be following for 3 appliance standards, we are refocusing our efforts in 4 a number of areas and want to resolve the test 5 procedure issues that have been raised on water 6 heaters. And to issue a final rule as quickly as 7 possible. 8 We will appreciate your candid input 9 today. We will consider that and that will drive us 10 in the direction which we will be going with in the 11 final rule on the test procedures. Once we complete 12 the test procedure rule making, we will proceed with 13 the standards rule making. 14 The standards for waterheaters have been 15 identified as one of the priority products for 16 standards in our regulatory agenda. Iknow that for 17 someparties that there was some confusion as towhat 18 happened. And that we had a workshop on 19 prioritizationwherewehad identifiedwater heateras 20 a mediumpriorityproduct. 21 And that some parties were rather 22 surprised when they saw or heard that the 23 prioritization had been moved up to high. I would 24 like to comment on that briefly, in that when we had 25 conducted the workshop, the process called for 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-44336 1 

### presenting what is a staff recommendation, based on 2 the information that was in front of us. 3 The rationale that we did us for some 4 products for highpriority, was that there were near 5 completions as well as the magnitude of energy 6 savings. A number of organizations had commented on 7 water heaters and urged the Department to change the 8 priority for water heaters to, from the medium to 9 high. 10 Inlookingat therationale,weconsidered 11 it and accepted that. Iwill urge all parties, based 12 on that experience, that to take that to heart for 13 future prioritization process is that if you see 14 something that the staff this year proposes to be a 15 high,medium or lowpriority andyou agree with that, 16 don't be silent. Speakup andsaythat youagree with 1.7 it. 

### 18 Ifyoudisagreewith it, thendo the same. 19 Our process will be that, as in the past, we will 20 present a staff recommendation based on some 21 information that we've developed inconsultationwith 22 state goals. We will present that, receive comment, 23 we willpresent all that information to the Assistant 24 Secretary prior to publishing the final priorities, 25 the priorities in the Federal Register. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-44337 1 So that is, we would appreciate and 2 encourage all comments. And I, given the forum that 3 we will be conducting today's meeting, being rather 4 informal, Iwill at this point invite anybodywith any 5 questions of me right now or later, to just make those 6 questions and I would be happy to entertain them. 7 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Are the latest priorities 3 that have beenpicked, are those prettymuchare they, 9 would you say those are the set for the rest of the 10 remainder of the year in terms of high, medium and 11 low? 12 MR. MCCABE: Yes. Those that were 13 published in the regulatoryagenda inNovember are the 14 priorities for this year. And we are in the process 15 now of assigning a team within the staff to work on 16 the process for the 1998 priorities. A housekeeping 17 rule that might aid the Recorder, is that if anybody 18 who is asking a question, particularly from the 19 audience. But anybody that is asking a question or 20 making a statement, if they would identify themselves 21 first. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sorry, Steve Rosenstock. 23 MR.MCCABE: At this time, Iwould like to 24 turn it over to Bryan Berringer. Bryan is the Program 25 Manager on staff responsible for water heaters, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-44338 1 including water heater test procedures. And has been 2 quite invaluable in a number of areas, including 3 supporting the process improvement effort. 4 MR. BERRINGER: Thank you, Michael. I 5 would like to say that I am the Project Manager on 6 this. Ireallyappreciate everybodycoming out today. 7 I just have a few procedural things to go over, so if 8 you could bear with me a moment. As Michael stated, 9 there is a number of people that work on the program. 10 We Brian Dougherty and Stan Liu from NIST. 11 Bill Hui, Carl Adams and Ed Levy from the 12 General Counsel whohave all beenworking on this rule 13 making. On behalf of the Department of Energy, I 14 would like to thank everyone for coming today. What 15 we are trying todo and accomplish today is go and get 16 feedback on comments we've received on the March, '95 17 proposed notice. 18 Andalso the comments we've heard from the 19 Hearing in July, '95, pertaining to test procedures. 20 And to seek any additional data, input or information 21 pertaining to these comments. 22 And I think we have a full discussion on 23 these issues from a number of people. We did an 24 analysis in a letter to many of the stake holders on 25 December 26, 1996. We also put out a Federal Register 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-44339 1 Notice. And any of you attending today that signed 2 in, if you haven't done so, if you would, you will be 3 added to the mailing list for future mailings. 4 The comments received here today and 5 submitted during written comment period or any 6 comments as a result of today's workshop, will assist 7 us in finalizing the final rule of test procedures. 8 Right now we've got that planned for April of '97. 9 Any comments made may not allow that, but that's 10 something that we will have to determine today from 11 the discussion. And hopefully that will be helpful. 12 I will be the presiding Officer for the 13 workshop today. AndJim Rabawill be facilitating the 14 workshop today and giving us guidance as far as 15 conducting the workshop and providing other pertinent 16 information. In approximately twoweeks, we will have 17 a complete copy of the transcripts of this workshop 18 available for inspection orcopying at the DOE Freedom 19 of Information Room. Which is located down the hall 20 in Room 1E-190. 21 Anybodywishingtopurchasingtranscripts, 22 can talk to the Court Reporter. To provide the 23 Department with as much pertinent information as 24 reasonably canbe obtained,and to enable everybodyto 25 express their views, we would like to follow the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443310 

### 1 workshop in the following procedures. 2 Again, the focus of the workshop is to 3 listen to your views pertaining to the comments 4 received on the notice and at the hearing and to seek 5 additional information pertaining to those comments. 6 We are going tobeginwith introductions. We will go 7 around the room. Then we will go over the ground 8 rules andwe will have a discussionof the agenda and 9 we will expand on it, if there are other test 10 procedure issues that warrant discussion. 11 We will take anhour break for lunch some 12 time around noon. We have the DOE cafeteria in the 13 West Building. We alsohave a snackbar andcafeteria 14 one floorbelowus. There is also some restaurants up 15 the street if you walk up L'Enfant Plaza, at the mall 16 there, there is an underground mall. 17 We will also ask, so we get everybody's 18 participation, that we wait to be recognized by the 19 Facilitator. Please remember to speak into the 20 microphones, state your name and your company name 21 before you speak, so the Court Reporter can record 22 that. 23 We ask that side conversations be either 24 done in the corner or outside the room, so we don't 25 interrupt the presenters or so we can have a good 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443311 

### 1 discussion and we are not over running each other. 2 We may have to cut off some topics to 3 maintain schedule. When we do the agenda review, we 4 may see some adjustments in that. There will be time 5 at the end of theworkshop foradditional discussions. 6 We encourage that everybody participate as much as 7 possible so that we can get a full spectrum of 8 opinions on the topics. 9 We are scheduledto gountil 4:00 today or 10 sooner if we complete discussion, however I don't 11 think we will have that problem. The topics which 12 have not been completely discussed by 4:00 can be 13 addressed in additional comments, andwe will discuss 14 at the end when we might receive those additional 15 comments in the Department. 16 All comments and data submitted will be 17 considered before we publish the final rule for test 18 procedures. We ask that all written comments and 19 submissions will be available in the Freedom of 20 Information Room. 21 The phone number is (202) 586-6020. 22 Writtencomments shouldbe addressedtotheDepartment 23 of Energy as outlined in the Federal Register Notice 24 of today's workshop, which is in your package. 25 We ask that 10 copiesof comments and data 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443312 1 

### be submitted. Inaddition, ifyouhave anyelectronic 2 copies, if you could submit them inWord Perfect 6.1. 3 No fax comments will be accepted. Any comments that 4 people feel are confidential or exempt bypublic law 5 disclosure, should submit one complete copy and 10 6 copieswhichhave theconfidential informationdeleted 7 from them. 8 Inaccordance with procedures established 9 in 10 CFR 1004.11, the Department of Energywill make 10 adeterminationwhetherthe information isexempt from 11 public disclosure. In keeping with regulations of 12 this building, there is no smoking allowed in this 13 roomor in this building. Rest rooms are down toyour 14 left and toyour right. There arephones in the main 15 lobby on this floor. 16 Again, we appreciate the time and effort 17 thatyou have taken to come here inpreparing for this 18 workshop. Andwe arepleasedto receiveyour comments 19 and opinions. Iwould like to reiterate, thepurpose 20 is to listen to your views pertaining to comments 21 received on the proposed rule and at the Hearing to 22 seek additional information. 23 I'd ask if youhave not signed inyet, if 24 you would please do so at that table. And at this 25 time, Iwould like to turn it back over to Jim andwe 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443313 

### 1 will do introductions, go over the ground rules and 2 review the agenda. Thankyou. 3 FACILITATORRABA: Good morning again. I 4 would like to start with introductions. Please state 5 your name and organization that you represent. We 6 will start hereat this endof the tableand goaround 7 and then for the rest of the room. 8 MR. BERRINGER: Again, Bryan Berringer, 9 Department of Energy. 10 MR. LEVY: Ed Levy, Office of General 11 Counsel, Department of Energy. 12 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller, Electric Power 13 Research Institute. 14 MR. BEGOSKE: Tim Begoske, Effikal 15 International. 16 MR. STANONICK: Frank Stanonick, Gas 17 Appliance Manufacturers Association. 18 MR. VAGO: Otto Vago, State Industries. 19 MR.MCCABE: Michael McCabe,Department of 20 Energy. 21 MR. PAISLEY: John Paisley, GSW Water 22 Heating Company. 23 MR. HARRIGILL: Bill Harrigill, Rheem 24 Manufacturing. 25 MR.KUSTERER: GeorgeKusterer,Bock Water 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443314 1 Heaters. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 3 Electric Institute. 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty,National 5 Institute of Standards and Technology. 6 MR. MILLS: James Mills, Federal Trade 7 Commission. 8 MR. HAAG: Wilbur Haag, A.O. Smith Water 9 Products Company. 10 MR. LUI: Stanley Lui, NIST. 11 MR.HUI: Bill Hui, Department of Energy. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. In the 13 back, please, starting on this side over here. 14 MR. MILLER: Rick Miller, Rheem 15 Manufacturing. 1.6 MR.CAPE: AlanCape,RheemManufacturing. 17 MR. LUTZ: Jim Lutz, LB National 18 Laboratories. 19 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Andy Lowenstein AIL 20 Research. 21 MR. ABRAMS: Don Abrams, Abrams and 22 Associates. 23 MR. EARLEY: Jim Earley, Georgia Power 24 Company. 25 MR. PISTOLE: Mike Pistole, Effikal 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443315 1 International. 2 MR. VAUGHN: Jim Vaughn, Vaughn 3 Manufacturing. 4 MR. LOONEY: Quentin Looney, Policy 5 Research Associates. 6 MS.MOOREFIELD: DianeMoorefield,Potomac 7 Electric Power Company. 8 MR. MORRISON: Dean Morrison, Rheem. 9 MR.HALL: Jack Hall,RheemManufacturing. 10 MR. PRYOR: Mike Pryor, State Industries. 11 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. 12 MR. HOLT: John Holt, National Rural 13 Electric Cooperative. 14 MR. ADAMS: Carl Adams, DOE. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, Oregon 16 Energy Office. 17 MR. BARBER: Ed Barber

-- 18 MR. PAUL: Darrell Paul. 19 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, The American 20 Gas Association. 21 MR. HEISS: Harold Heiss, American 22 Electric Power. 23 MR. BERNADOWSKI: Tim Bernadowski, 24 Virginia Power. 25 FACILITATORRABA: Thankyou. Can youall 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443316 

### 1 see back there?. We are meeting today to help the 2 process along andget the most out of today. Iwould 3 like to go over a few ground rules withyou. Iwould 4 like to listen to some that you'd like to put up on 5 the board too. 6 Canyou all see this? All right. Again, 7 for the record, for speaking, so we can all get 8 familiar with each other, please state your name 9 clearlyandyour organization represented. Becausewe 10 have a large group today, we recommend that each 11 raises their hand before speaking. It will help out' 

### 12 a lot. 13 Let one person speak at a time. Iwould 14 like to stay on the topic, focus on the topic. If 15 there is something that needs tobe discussed,we can 16 put it in a parking lot. We can write it down, 17 capture it for now,post it on the wall and come back 18 to it later on. So stayof topic. If something comes 19 up, we will hold on to it and we will save it for 20 later. 21 I would like you all just to listen as 22 allies. Listen constructively, focus on the task and 23 give constructive remarks. So listenas allies andbe 24 concise. Be concise. Please, we have a lot to cover 25 today and I would like to hear from everybody, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443317 1 everybody. And also to focus on the future. That is 2 to work up, we are going to go forward. We are going 3 to look at the future, what we can do together. So we 4 are going to look at that as a future orientation. 5 Now here's some simple guidelines, ground 6 rules. Can you all accept these? Are these okaywith 7 you? Do you feel comfortable with these? Are these 8 okay? Do you have anything to add to this, this list, 9 anything you'd like to put up here too? Any personal 10 concerns or ground rules? 11 (Noresponse.) 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay, it sounds good, 13 it sounds good. Well, next thing, let's go over the 14 agenda. The purpose of our meeting today is really to 15 gather feedback and information and share data so we 16 can all come to some conclusions or some ways to 17 gather facts on the topics. To help us all out and 18 understand each one and help us in the direction with 19 the standards and procedures and test procedures for 20 water heaters. 21 So to gather feedback and information. 22 And the outcome is to use this input for the test 23 procedures for water heaters, and ultimately a final 24 rule for those test procedures. Going step-by-step 25 through the agenda, we are going to look at the topics 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443318 

### 1 of first hour ratings for storage-type water heaters. 2 Then instantaneous water heaters. Then 3 look at storage-type water heaters of less than 20 4 gallons, the daily hot water use and heat pump water 5 heaters andattendingdefinitions. Now,these are the 6 items in the agenda that we have posted here. Are 7 there anyothercritical itemsyou'd like tobringup. 8 Please. 9 DR. HILLER: I am going to recommend a 10 change in the order of the agenda

-- 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. 12 DR. HILLER: -- for the group to decide 

### 13 on. I am anticipating that the first hour rating 14 issue is probably going to be the most contentious 15 issue. And Ithink some of the other issues could be 16 dealt withmorerapidly, and especiallyin some of the 17 temperature issues. I don't see temperature 18 specifically listed there, but

-- 19 FACILITATOR RABA: Yeah, that was on the 20 agenda, thankyou. 21 DR. HILLER: If we get some of those 22 things cleared up, then the first hour rating 23 discussion will be easier, because we will have 24 alreadyagreedonthe temperatures thatwe are talking 25 about. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443319 1 FACILITATOR RABA: That soundsgood. Does 2 anybody have any other comments on that? 3 (Noresponse.) 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Would you like to 5 rearrange the agenda just a bit? 6 MR. STANONICK: No, I'd rather leave it 7 that way. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is let's 8 get the first hour rating procedure, that is the 9 issue. The rest of this is relatively less important 10 stuff than resolving this issue of how you are going 11 to do first hour ratings. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay, we have an offer 13 to rearrange the agenda for priorities and we have 14 another offer to keep it the same. Any other comments 15 on that, any other feedback? Yes, please. 16 MR. KUSTERER: I agree with Frank. I 17 think that's the major priority. I also think let's 18 get the hard part over with first. It seems that the 19 easier stuff will be easier to get through. I think 20 we should stick to the agenda. 21 MR. VAGO: I also support that position. 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Others please? 23 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 24 Electric Institute. I think in terms of building 25 consensus, IagreewithDr. Hiller's approach, that it 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443320 

### 1 might be easier totake some small steps first, before 2 we get to the more contentious issues. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: How does the rest of 4 the group feel about that? 5 (Noresponse.) 6 FACILITATOR RABA: A show of hands. All 7 those who would like to keep the agenda as it is? 8 Three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 9 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, I see. Seventeen. And to reload 10 the agenda? Okay, it shows that there are more in 11 favor of keeping as is. 12 Be assured, please, we will have ample 13 time to discuss all topics thoroughly. Iappreciate 14 the suggestion to change, but we are going to stay on 15 topic aswe arenow according to the group. Thankyou 16 very much for that. Again, reminding you are ground 17 rules. Please stateyourname andorganizationbefore 1.8 speaking. It will help ourReporterandeach of us to 19 identify each other and know who each other are. 20 Wedidhave that temperature settingtobe 21 putbackup there again. Thatwentwith the dailyhot 22 waterusage, is that correct? And temperature setting 23 goes right here. Are there any other issues that 24 couldbe on the agenda, any other critical issues? 25 (Noresponse.) 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443321 1 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay, so we will just 2 stick with this for now. If something comes up, we 3 can put in on a parking lot or add it to the agenda. 4 Idid see some others come in at the last minute. Has 5 everybody registered at the table there, give your 6 business card in? 7 Okay,wewill make time todiscuss eachof 8 the issues thoroughly. And, as I say, if there is 9 anything else that comes up we can go over them at 10 that time. The first substantive element that we have 11 in our agenda is the discussion of the first hour 12 rating. In deed, a difficult topic, so we would like 13 to hear from everybody on this topic. 14 First we would like to start Brian 15 Dougherty fromtheNational Instituteof Standards and 16 Technology, who will give a brief background on the 17 first hour rating, and then apresentationbyDr. Carl 18 Hiller with EPRI. Thank you very much, Brian. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: Thanks Jim. As Jim 20 mentioned, my purpose is to give you some background 21 to get us started. And before I do that, I just want 22 to dropback and first look at the purpose and goal of 23 first hour rating. And part of that carries over a 24 definition. 25 I will give you a brief history because 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443322 

### 1 this thing does have a history. It has been revised 2 over theyears. Andat that point, Iamgoing to drop 3 back and then hopefully open it up to the floor and 4 actually maybe call on some people at that point, as 5 far as options on water heaters, on first hour 6 ratings. 7 Should it be maintained in its present 8 structure? Slightlymodified? Shouldweabandoned it 9 and put in alternative sizing descriptors? And then 10 once we get to a decision on which way to go, we can 11 look at the methods in detail to figure out in nuts 12 and bolts how they need to be changed. 13 When this thing came into being, it was 14 looked at in the late '70's and finally was made 15 official in '79, the goal was to providing sizing 16 informationandameans forcomparingdifferentunits. 17 There was adiscussionback thento tryand figureout 18 what a 30 gallon gas compares to andwhat two element 19 electric or single element electric compares to. 20 Also a big discussion back in the late 21 '70's was there was a time when FTC labeling was 22 coming along and the FTCwas lookingat using storage 23 capacity as a means for making comparisons. And the 24 questionwas,was there anotherdescriptionthat could 25 be used, and first hour rating was pushed head to be 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443323 

### 1 that descriptor. 2 First hour rating is something that is a 3 single descriptor that's more than most features, it 4 doesn'thavemultipleparameters andit embodies a few 5 things. One is the storage capacity of the water 6 heater. The second thing is the recovery capability 7 of the water heater. And that actually comes in two 8 forms. One, yourheat input, but alsowhere youplace 9 that heat input. 10 Adefinitionas it appeared in theback of 11 the '95 Code toRule Making. It is an estimate of the 12 maximum volume of hot water, and you have to define 13 what hot is, that can be supplied within an hour, 14 that's the magic time frame, that begins with the 15 water heater fully heated. The thermostats are cut 15 off, you'vegot a fullyheated tank,nowyou start the 17 one hour period. 18 As to thehistory. Since '79, this thing 19 has been looked at several times as to how it can be 20 tweaked and changed to try to come to some kind of 21 test procedure that actually comes close to meeting 22 the definition. And there is a reason behind these 23 revisions and Iwill note a few here. 24 Onewastry toaddtemperaturecorrections :25 tominimize the effect ofmixing. If someone hadmore 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443324 

### 1 mixing occurring, they couldpotentially get ahigher 2 first hour rating. So therewas an attempt to have a 3 correction to negate that mixing advantage. 4 Andalso somethingthat'sveryreal in the 5 lab is you have to deal with testology. You are 6 allowed to have your thermostat cut off between 130 7 and 140 at present. Andyou are allowed tohave your 8 inlet temperature vary between 56 and 60 degrees 9 fahrenheit. And because of those tolerances, they 10 have an impact of the final result. 11 And so if you start out with your 12 thermostat at 130 and your inlet temperature at 160, 13 youwill get differentresultspotentially than if you 14 had it at 140 andat 56. So there wasmethods looked 15 at tohowyou couldcorrect for that, in fact you have 16 all it in test homes. 17 Another factor was to avoid overstating 18 ratings. There was a question of whether or not you 19 should get credit for something you get during the 20 hour, that doesn't really produce hot water at one 21 hour, but at a time after one hour. 22 There was also, at one point, a 23 repeatability problem that was an issue that 24 unfortunately, based on the test made a decision of 25 whether or not to draw or not to draw and that had an 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443325 1 implication as far as changing significantly the 2 outcome of the first hour rating. 3 And most recently, is to avoid the 4 understating tests, or the both the overstating and 5 understating. Unfortunately the test method wasn't 6 consistent with the definitionwhich was what can you 7 do in one hour? 8 Where is first hour rating referenced? 9 Well it is used by FTC, as I mentioned. It was 10 implemented in '79, with their method for guidelines 11 or labeling program. It actually appeared in a HUD 12 document as far as FHAminimum requirements for water 13 heaters. They give things like number of bathrooms, 14 number ofbedrooms and what supposedlyyour first hour 15 draw should be. 16 And it has been offered as a guideline, 17 not a requirement within some of the building codes, 18 BOCA, it is discussed in ASHRAE, their handbook 19 section on applications, Chapter 45, I think it is 20 now. And the GAMA Directory tries to show a person 21 how you would use the descriptive for in fact sizing. 22 It goes through and gives you an example 23 in a table what would be a typical shower usage, what 24 would be a typical hand washing usage, and you are 25 supposed to consider your peak hour usage. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443326 

### 1 And one of the questions that Ihave for 2 you and the manufacturers in particularly and I was 3 talking to JimLutz about this, is that the first hour 4 ratingusedbythe manufacturers inany kind of sizing 5 guidelines? Would anyone care to comment on that? Is 6 that in fact a component used inproviding some of the 7 information on how to size it, as provided by the 8 manufacturer? And do manufacturers use it as far as 9 in providing information on the water heaters too? 10 MR. STANONICK: I think the more 11 appropriate question may be is what the opinion is as 12 to what extent unfortunately sizing even occurs in 13 residential. 14 MR. DOUGHERTY: I've got that next. 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. KUSTERER: I'd like to comment on 17 that. George Kusterer with Bock Water Heaters. We 18 offer that information in our Engineering Manual for 19 both residential andcommercial application. So it is 20 available to the consumer, to the installer, to the 21 Engineer who specifies the equipment. 22 So that first hour recovery is used in 23 some cases for sizing and that is made available to 24 them. 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: And as Frank mentioned

-- 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443327 

### 1 in the back? 2 MR. MILLER: I just wanted to make a 3 comment. RickMiller, RheemManufacturing. As George 4 points out, first hour is used in our literature as 5 well to provide that information to the consumer. 6 Whenyou consider that the majority of domesticwater 7 heaters sold today is a replacement, homeowners are 8 just typically looking to replace what they've had. 9 Unless the water heater that's failed 10 isn'tproviding themenough hotwater. In such case, 11 theymight look at first hour rating to re-size their 12 water heater. But by and large, it is generally not 13 used. 14 MR. DOUGHERTY: Your comments are 15 consistent with anASHRAE forum that was in San Diego 16 and Ican't remember if that was '95.. Theyhad it on 17 sizing information and Jim was the Moderator. And 18 they kind of touched on this point. To spite the 19 noted references, is first hour rating really being 20 used as a sizing descriptor is questionable. 21 In new construction, the purchasing 22 decision is more often is even made by the builder or 23 the homeowner. 'If the builder makes it, it is a use 24 rule of thumb. And the fact is, for a regular size 25 house if theyput in a 250 electric and if it's gas 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443328 

### 1 they'll put in a 40 gallon. They have a high water 2 use appliance, like ahot tub, theywill size up. Or 3 if it is a premium house they will size up, 4 potentially. 5 Replace market, just like you said, the 6 purchasing decision here is more the plumber or the 7 homeowner. And again, the first hour rating is 8 probably not considered. It is usually often apanic 9 situation where you want to get hot water back in 10 service and you find out what you have and you call 11 and say, do you have this? 12 So you typically get the same size and 13 type of unit that is presently installed. The closest 14 match to what is in stock, what is on the truck, you 15 want hot water back. And you mentioned, potentially 16 if you are having a condition where your kids are 17 draining down the hotwater, you may say, canwe go a 18 little higher so I canget my shower andnot be cold. 19 So with that all in and just go back to 20 the first one and just say at this point in time, to 21 state our opinions on first hour ratings and maybe 22 even before that I will defer to Carl, if he'd like 23 to, and speak on what he can provide us before the 24 meeting as far as sizing. 25 Any opinions anyone wants to speak up 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443329 before I pass it over to Carl? Frank. MR. STANONICK: If I could, Frank Stanonick again. I just want to mention that we kind of use or try to use first hour rating in our directory as a guide to consumers. And I think, just

so everybodyunderstands what we do there, is we tell them to try and estimate what's the most water they

are going to use in an hour, and then find the water heater that has a comfortable first hour rating in the certain range of that. The main, well, the reason for that is first of all, we want people that are truly going to shop for water heaters, we want them to compare comparable water heaters. It is not to their advantage to, you know, at one point look at a 30 gallon and then at another point look at a 50 and think that both of these are going to -- one of them isn't going to fit the needs, or whatever. But, the thing about that is that, all right, we are looking at this and is you look at that chart and ifyou estimate, for example, the numberswe

are using, two showers and just any other usage, you very quickly get up in the 50's and 60's in terms of

an hour load, all right. Any time, if you do that calculation and 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2530 1 just try and estimate, you know, just for yourself. 2 Okay, what might be my worst case usage? You start 3 approaching numbers that are comparable to the daily 4 average hot waterusage that's in the test procedure. 5 Okay, my point is that we use a very conservative, 6 that's a very conservative method of rating. 7 Because in fact in a lot of situations, 8 people will be coming up with an estimate that is 9 close to what wouldbe the total dailyusage, at least 10 what appears to be accepted as a kind of okay number, 11 and yet this is supposed to in an hour. And we do 12 that on purpose. Again, the idea here is nobody has 13 even complained because I had too much hot water. 14 There have been plenty complaints when 15 people don't have enough hot water. And so my point 16 is that we've structured that and we've used that 17 number in a conservation fashion to, first of all, 13 make sure people look at the same units when they are 19 trying to decide, if that's what they are doing. And 20 the other part of that is again, it does tend, if 21 anything to -- 22 MR. DOUGHERTY: Make them think. 23 MR. STANONICK: Well, make them think and 24 also make sure, you know, it goes to the end of making 25 sure they'll have enough hot water. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443331 1 MR. DOUGHERTY: Yes, please, hand over 2 there. 3 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer with Bock 4 Water Heaters. I have mixed emotions about the first 5 hour recovery rating since I think in some cases, and 6 I know some of my colleagues are here. We are using 7 water heaters more and more nowadays in a combined 8 appliance application, where we are using it for 9 heating as well. 10 And I think it is extremely important, 11 like I say, weprovide the first hour recovery listing 12 as our colleagues do, so that the Contractors can see 13 exactly what their requirements are first hour and 14 again to the consumer to make a comparison on the 15 units they are going to select. Obviously this is 16 with gas and electric equipment. 17 So, and again we are in an age when we are 18 dealing with this type of equipment, gas and oil19 fired, you know, this is not a throw away item 20 anymore. This is an investment. Especially when we 21 are using it in a combined appliance. So, I think 22 that ought to be taken into consideration. 23 FACILITATOR RABA: You had a question? 24 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, American Gas 25 Association. In terms of the first hour rating and 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443332 1 our experiences, we've had inour publicationsmade it 2 available the policies and procedures because we do 3 think sizing is important. And I maybe not the, you 4 know, the wherewithal to size a water heater, but it 5 is certainly than what is out there today in terms of 6 trying to go by gallonage alone. 7 We think that proper sizing is very 8 important. You mentioned that the building codes do 9 use those guidelines and I believe that anybody could 10 do that, so it is going to be enforced, even though it 11 is a guideline. And the reason for it to properly 12 size that water heater. Becausewe had the experience 13 where consumers would, because they were running out 14 of hot water, start turning up thermostats. And 15 that's the last thing that you want. 16 So we don't want to throw the baby out 17 with the bath water. 18 FACILITATOR RABA: Good analogy. Any 19 other questions or comments, please? 20 (Noresponse.) 21 FACILITATOR RABA: Dr. Hiller, would you 22 like to make your presentation? 23 DR. HILLER: Basically, I held my piece 24 while everyone was speaking, because we are really in 25 a position now to know what is really going on and I 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443333 1 am going to bring some clients into this issue. EPRI, 2 for the last two and a half years, has had a very 3 detailed water heating field test going on, and we 4 collect a number of channels of information. 5 We collect water draw information on a 15 6 second basis, 365 days a year. Each test site, what 7 do we have, two gigabytes a year for each test site of 8 14 single family detached residences, one apartment 9 building and two coin laundries. Today I am just 10 going to show you the single family residence 11 information. 12 So we know, with extreme detail, how 13 people are really using hot water, these were our 14 14 test sites. So we know longer have to guess, okay. 15 And let me just share some of thatwith you andhow it 16 reflects developing hot water rating systems. 17 First of all, can we all agree that this 18 hot water delivery rating scheme, whatever it is, the 19 purpose of that is to help us select the right water 20 heater for the job without a test for oversizing. Is 21 that the objective that we are after with this? It's 22 what I've always assumed that it was about. 23 MR. STANONICK: It's effective purpose, 24 not primary to me. To me it is the secondarypurpose, 25 not the primary one.

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443334 1 DR.HILLER: What is the primary one, you 2 think? 3 MR. STANONICK: I think, in my opinion, 4 the primary purpose was to come up with some way so 5 thatyou could lump together comparable models so that 6 our friends at FTC could develop labels that would 7 identify models that were similar in capability and 8 you would compare those. 9 DR. HILLER: So it was not an issue of 10 selecting one versus another based on that rating? 11. MR. STANONICK: Again, I think that is the 12 secondary purpose and slash benefit. But Iwould say 13 if we didn't, if the FTC EnergyGuides weren't looming 14 on the horizon, Idon't believe there would have been 15 a first hour rating in the test procedures. My 16 opinion. 17 DR. HILLER: Okay. I agree that's an 18 issue. Let me just say, by the way, I think we all 19 know that the plumbers figure it out, what works and 20 what doesn't, quite a while ago. Everything we do is 21 kind of secondary to what the plumbers know works. A 22 lot of what I am going to show you today, is going to 23 show you why the plumbers knew what to do. 24 They figured this out with out having all 25 this data. You put enough water heaters in and you 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443335 1 listen to enough complaints, you figure this out. Let 2 me just show you data from a few of our test sites. 3 I've got all 14 of them here. We've got the whole 4 package of 14, has been copied, if it hasn't been 5 distributed, if will inplots that Iam about to show. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: The handouts will be 7 available at the break. 8 DR. HILLER: What we did, we took all of 9 our raw data for every site and in moving with our 10 average, remember we have a 15 second resolution on 11 our drawing. We did a 15 minute'moving window 12 analysis. We looked at, everyminute, we looked at 15 13 minute segment and looked at the water consumption in 14 that 15 minute window. And we moved throughout the 15 day and figured out what was the maximum gallons in 16 the highest 15 minute period. 17 And then we did that for a 30 minute 18 window, and a 45 minute window, and an hour window, 19 and a two hour window, three hour window, four hour 20 window, five, six and so on. And if you do that, you 21 get numbers of occurrences of gallons in different 22 time limits. And what we, it took us a while to 23 figure this all out. And this really crystallized for 24 us in the last couple of weeks. 25 You haven't seen a lot of this presented 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443336 1 in the ASHRAE, but this finally all jelled for us. 2 What you can do with all that information, is you can 3 create plots of draws of a certain magnitude in a 4 certain time window, not exceeded more than. Andwhat 5 we've got here on this lower line, this is for one 6 particular customer. This lower line is, they do not 7 exceed this number of gallons, this is cumulative 8 gallons from the start of the window, more than once 9 a day. 10 Here they do not exceed this number of 11 gallons more than once a week. And here, more than 12 once a month. So, what's this saying? This is saying 13 that this moving window averages, so this encompasses 14 all the hours in the day. This customer, and this is 15 typical, most of their consumptions happeneddownhere 16 in the 30 to 45 minute time, that there are large 17 jumps of consumptions, and then they tail off. 13 And we all know that. We take showers in 19 the morning and then we go to work. That's how it 20 works. We do the laundry and then we stop. And then 21 maybe we do a little laundry further on. So what 22 we've got here, is true, actual, from the field data 23 of how people use hot water. And what they don't do. 24 And what this is telling us is that this 25 customer never uses more than this once a month, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443337 1 twelve times, this is a year's data. Yeah, this is a 2 true year's data here. So that meant they use water, 3 say at a one hour time frame, they used more than 37 4 gallons in a one hour time frame, less than once a 5 month. 6 So anything down here is less than once a 7 month occurrence. Anything above this line, is less 8 than once a week occurrence. Now we know from our 9 test data and watching how people use hot water, we 10 know what they consider a hot water run off to be. 11 And that delivery temperature happens to be between 12 105 and 110 degrees. 13 Andwe'vedone independent testswhereyou 14 can stick people's hands in the water and they tell 15 you whether it is hot enough or not. 16 That comes out with the same answer. 17 People's definition for human uses. One hundred five 18 to 110, anything less than that, they start thinking 19 it is not warm enough. Anythingabove that is warmer. 20 Let me show up some of the otherplots and then Iwill 21 come back and make some points. 22 That customer, by the way, happened to be 23 a 28 gallon per day on a yearly average. A small use 24 customer. Mind you, in our test set, in our test 25 program, we tried to find large families. These are 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443338 1 all typically families of four. There were a couple 2 that were families of three. These are four or more 3 people. This guy is real conservative. 4 MR. STANONICK: Explain again what this 5 tells you? This says, for example

-- 6 DR. HILLER: This tells that they are 7 really using hot water. This says that at 15 minutes, 8 they almost neveruse more than 3gallons, at an hour, 9 they almost never use more than 37 gallons, 10 cumulative, over that hour time period. 11 MR. STANONICK: All right, all right. 12 DR. HILLER: And in four hours, it is 48 13 gallons. This is a low use customer. 14 MR. STANONICK: Right. But it is saying 15 that there is at least one situation once a month 16 where in a 15 minute period they did use 30 gallons? 17 DR. HILLER: Right. This line is not 18 exceeded more than 12 times a year. 19 MR. STANONICK: Right, right, okay. 20 DR. HILLER: This line is not exceeded 21 more than 52 times. And then the daily, this line is 22 not exceeded more than 365 times. 23 MR. STANONICK: So the daily line says 24 that

-- 25 DR. HILLER: Your average consumption

-- 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443339 1 MR. STANONICK: At least once a day, let 2 me make sure, at least once a day they have a 15 3 minute draw that is roughly seven gallons? 4 DR. HILLER: Right. 5 MR. STANONICK: At least once a day they 6 have a half hour draw? 7 DR. HILLER: Cumulative. 8 MR. STANONICK: Okay, so it is 9 including

-- 10 DR. HILLER: Cumulative. It includes the 11 15 minutes. These are the, our edge of the envelope, 12 all right. These are not exceeded, these bins are not 13 exceeded more than once a week, once a month or once 14 a year. It took us a while to figure out how to plot 15 this, because real consumption, of course, is jumping 16 all over. 17 But it reallyhelps tounderstandwhat the 18 outer edge of the envelope looks like for sizing 19 purposes. 20 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer from Bock. 21 I am a poor Pennsylvania farm boy. Do these people 22 bathe more than once a month? 23 (Laughter.) 24 MR.KUSTERER: I'mmissing somethinghere. 25 DR. HILLER: Well, let me showyou a more 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443340 1 

### typical customer. 2 MR. KUSTERER: Well, you are saying, you 3 saying this is a typical family of four? 4 DR. HILLER: I'm saying, we tried to -- 5 MR. KUSTERER: How many people lived at 6 this test site? 7 DR. HILLER: Four. 8 MR. KUSTERER: Okay, great water in that 9 place. 10 DR. HILLER: When you see consumptions 11 like this, you can almostbet that they have a health 12 club. 13 MR. KUSTERER: Or a health problem. 14 (Laughter.) 15 DR. HILLER: And it may have been cold 16 water, Imean, they wash in coldwater, they don't do 17 very many hot water. They may have a young child. 18 This is low. Even my family of four isn't that low. 19 My family, I've got my house instrumented and I'm 20 around 40 or 45 gallons. 21 MR. KUSTERER: And Carl, you were 22 measuring flow comingout of the waterheater, right? 23 DR. HILLER: Right. 24 MR.KUSTERER: Well, even if theyhad some 25 other kind of semi-exotic auxiliarymeans to get hot 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443341 

### 1 water, it still would come through there you would 2 think. 3 DR. HILLER: Anything that this water 4 heating device was using. And these are the water 5 heating devices for the homes. 6 MR.DOUGHERTY: BrianDougherty fromNIST. 7 Carl, did try to doing any kind of normalization for 8 outlet temperature, inlet temperature? 9 DR. HILLER: We have not yet done the 10 temperature normalization, that's the next step in 11 this analysis. Right now this is all water at 12 whatever temperatures. And we do know what the 13 temperature was at each 15 second or minute average 14 interval. It reallydoesn'tmean any,the temperature 15 reading really doesn't tell you anything unless the 16 draw is at least a minute long. 17 Butwe knowwhat the temperatures were, I 18 canpresent that informationparenthetically. By the 19 way, this test program, this is just the summarydata 20 for the first eight months of that test. Was 21 distilleddownfrom 17volumes or so, just to give the 22 summaries. In the two and a half years that we now 23 have, the fulldata set if wewere toprint out, would 24 be at least 40 volumes or so. 25 Thank heaven for computers and gigabytes 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443342 

### 1 and inexpensive storage. 2 MR. BEGOSKE: Tim Begoske, Effikal 3 International. Did they have low consumption water 4 heads on all their outlets? 5 DR. HILLER: That customer was an extreme 6 conservative. We had, we had it turn out that we had 7 two families like that in the test program. Even 8 though, you know, when we surveyed the particular 9 sites, we were looking for people who were going to 10 usea lot of hot water,we thought. Becausewewanted 11 to test the envelope ofwhat certain deviceswould do 12 when we played with the different heating rates, 13 etcetera. 14 Here is another customerand this is more 15 typical, they had 63.1 gallon per day average 16 consumption. Their slope is a little higher down at 17 the beginning. All the curves look like this. They 18 all kind of go up in the first hour or 45 minutes and 19 then they start to level off. And that's howpeople 20 really use hot water. 21 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. Did 22 you have any houses at all that have

-- 2:3 DR. HILLER: You betcha, we're getting 24 there. 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Your name again, sir? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443343 1 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 3 DR. HILLER: We are going toget into some 4 interesting ones here now. 5 FACILITATORRABA: We haveamicrophone in 6 theback there too, if anybodywould like touse that. 7 It is standing there by the pillar. 8 DR. HILLER: Now I am going to go to the 9 ones where it really starts to get interesting where 10 you've got some higher consumptions. This family, 11 this is eight months to the beginning of the year, 12 83.4 gallons per day, average consumption. And this 13 is how they use hot water. 14 Iamsetting theseplots aside,becausewe 15 will come back to them and do some other stuff with 16 them in a minute. Here is people with a spa tub and 17 three teenage daughters with long hair. And theywere 18 our champion. They were 124.3 gallons a day average 19 consumption. 20 Andthey emptied, theyused that spaabout 21 once a week. And that empties a 50 gallon water 22 heater just to fill that tub. It takes a whole tank 23 just to fill that tub. 24 And we will come back in a minute and I 25 will show you some things that are interesting about 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443344 1 this site. But again everybody, regardless if you 2 went from 28 gallons a day to 124 gallons, that was a 3 100 gallons a daydifference. They all have the same 4 characteristic. They use a fair amount of hot water 5 in the first half hour or 45 minutes and then they 6 start to tail off. These people happen to use more, 7 you know they are still thought here as steeper than 8 the typical customer, because they use more hot water 9 throughout the day than the typical customer. Or a 10 little less clustered and a little more spread out, 11 because, and that is part of why theyuse so much more 12 hot water. 13 Now one more site of interest, Iwill set 14 these all aside and come back to them, here was 76.6 15 gallons per day. Let me just show you something 16 interesting. Here is the 83 gallons a day, and here 17 is, I am going to overlay that now with 76 gallons a 13 day. Look what happens in the beginning. In the 19 beginning, it is the lower consumer actually has 20 higher water use in the beginning time period. 21 It is hard to tell that unless Imove them 22 around a littlebit. But then it levels off. So this 23 higher line is from the 83 gallon a day person. This 24 lower line is from the 76 gallon a day person, but 25 their consumption in the early time frame is higher. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 - P45 1 So that consumer with the smaller water consumption, 2 actually needed a little bit bigger water heater than 3 the larger consumption. Just because of the way they 4 use their hot water. 5 Their water use was a little bit more 6 clustered when they used it. And that gives us some 7 interesting comparisons to do. And so that's real 8 data. That's howpeople reallyuse hot water. That's 9 the outer edge of the envelope. By the way, we do 10 know, we collected customer satisfaction surveys on a 11 monthly basis from all these customers as we played 12 around with their water heaters and stuff like that. 13 MR.LIU: StanleyLiu, NIST. You remember 14 that there is a wide difference in the customer 15 setting are they are pretty close to the same? 16 DR. HILLER: The different customers, you 17 mean? 18 MR. LIU: Yes. 19 DR. HILLER: We have all that data. The 20 lowest customers are typicallyaround 120, the highest 21 were about 135. Most of them kind of hovered around 22 127 to 132. This is what they set it at. 23 MR. LIU: Most times have customer setting 24 at 150 or 160. 25 DR.HILLER: The assertion thatpeople set 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443346 1 their thermostats up that high is an invalid 2 assertion, with the possible exception of single 3 element tanks. And we will come back to that and I 4 will show you why, okay? 5 MR. KALISCH: Bert Kalisch, AGA. What 6 about the size of the tanks that were used. Were 7 there various sizes or all the same? 8 DR. HILLER: We are going to get there. 9 What I am about to go into now starts to do that. But 10 I wanted to show you that we have real data and we 11 know how people are really using hot water in the 12 field. And we know this is an interesting period of 13 time. 14 Andwhenyou think about your own life, we 15 are all the same way. People tend to cluster their 16 water usage. You take a shower, you do a little 

### 17 laundry and then you don't do something for a while, 18 you don't do as much for a while. So your 19 consumptions tend tobe more clustered on a cumulative 20 basis over a short time period. 2: And indeed, that'swhat drives the size of 22 your water use. And I am going to show you that. 23 MR. PAUL: Darrell Paul. Were all of 24 these water heaters electric units? 25 DR. HILLER: Yes. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202) 234-443347 1 MR. PAUL: Okay. I know when my wife was 2 living in an apartment and we had an electric water 3 heater, we changed ourbehavioralpatterns. She would 4 take a shower first thing in the morning, I would go 5 down and make a pot of coffee and have breakfast and 6 Iwould take a shower afterbreakfast. Simplybecause 7 if we both took a shower at the same time, we might 8 run out of water. 9 Whereas now that we have a gas water 10 heater, we both take a shower consecutively. So 11 behavioral patterns will change depending on people's 12 experience with the water heater. So I guess what I 13 am getting at is, I'm not sureyou can generalize your 14 results to the population as a whole, since it was 15 only focusing on electric water heaters. 16 DR. HILLER: I knew that issue would be 17 brought up at this meeting. You are right that within 18 a certain rangepeople will adjust theiruse patterns, 19 if a relatively minor adjustment in the way they 20 behave will make any problems go away. If it was a 21 major problem, theywon't do it. They will get a new 22 water heater. But if it is a minorproblem, then they 23 do it. 24 We do have customers that have extreme 25 storage capacity. One of the customers, Ididn't show 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

## . . .48 

### 1 it up here, one of these customers had a dual tank 2 system, 100 gallons of storage with a natural 3 convection. One tank actively heating, passively 4 heating the othertankbynatural convection. Theydo 5 not change their patterns. 6 They never run out of hot water, they 7 almost zero ran out through the test, and their 8 patterns look just like these. So it isnotnearly as 9 strong an issue as youmight think it is. People are 10 not really, based on the consumption we see, are not 11 changing their patterns. Some of these people never 12 come close to running out of hot water. A few of them 13 do, most of them don't. 14 Hot water run outs are fairly rare 15 occurrences if your water heater system is sized 16 properly. And we are going to come into that sizing 17 issue in just a minute. How we can figure out with 18 this information what size water heater

-- 19 MR. PAUL: There were 14 units that you 20 tested? 2:L DR. HILLER: Fourteen different 22 residential units. And we would love to get more 23 data. And one of the things maybe we can get out of 24 thismeetingisget somecollaborative effort together 25 to get more of this data. We've been working on less 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443349 

### 1 elaborate data acquisition systems that can still get 2 high resolution and the draw information and a lot of 3 the other channels that we are collecting. But we 4 don't need that to get the water information. 5 Wewould lovetogetmore information like 6 this andcollectmore informationabout, youknow, the 7 number of people and ages and appliances and do some 8 statistically valid stuff that can create some draw 9 patterns like that that are statistically 10 representative. Idon't claim that our 14 sites are 11 statistically representative. 12 I do claim that due to their similarity 13 there are some general conclusions that can be drawn. 14 But you are right, people will change their use 15 patterns a lit2le bit. But it is not as big an issue 16 as you would think. Another comment here? 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, Iwas just going to 18 say that -- Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric 19 Institute -- part of the usage pattern and also 

### 20 sometimes a function of, in terms of thepeople in the 21 residence and it is probably the same with both 22 electric as well as gas water heaters, that people 23 will just in case, well, wewon't take showers at the 24 same time, we will do it one after each other just to 25 be on the safe side.

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443350 

### 1 It is really, you know, I don't know if 2 studies have been done on it, but there, I'm sure 3 there, like Dr.Hiller was saying, there are a lot of 4 people out there who just won't take the risk of 5 getting the cold blast in the morning. 6 DR. HILLER: And if you look at, for 7 example, that 28 gallon per day customer. They do 8 take showers at home. And they never come close. 9 They've got a 50 gallon water heater, and they never 10 come close to running out of hot water, the way they 11 shower. That is just theirbehavior. Imean, Ihave 12 some renters, I have a rental property and Ihad one 13 renter in there for a while. 14 I finallyhad to kick him out, because he 15 kept doing this. And he kept complaining about my 16 water heater, and it wasn't providing adequate hot 17 water and he kept cranking the thermostat up, to the 18 point where it popped the T & P valve all the time. 19 I had constant battles with the guy. 20 It was a gas water heater. And the guy 21 cranked the thing up until it blew the T & P valve 22 every day, which is a tremendous scald potential for 23 the other people in the house. So I kicked him out 24 when hewouldn't listen to me. And Iwatchedhis use 25 patterns, I was there. And he would get into the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443351 

### 1 shower, he woulddrainthe tank completely,get out of 2 the shower, wait ten minutes and get back in again. 3 And he had no clue that he was six sigma 4 out of the norm in the way that he used hot water. 5 That was life tohim, that was the way itwas. As far 6 as he was concerned, that was the way everybody took 7 showers. But he wasway out there. And Ikicked him 8 out because he turned the temperature up on my gas 9 water heater to dangerous levels. 10 MR. STANONICK: Ifhe turned itup onyour 11 electric water heater it would have been dangerous 12 levels too, right? 13 DR. HILLER: That wouldn't have made a 14 difference, gas or electric. 15 MR. STANONICK: Thank you. 16 DR. HILLER: It was his use pattern to 17 turn the temperature up, not the water heater type or 18 size. 19 MR. KUSTERER: George KustererwithBock. 20 Had you had the first hour recovery on that rental 21 property, as published by a lot of the manufacturers 22 and it was properly sized,you wouldn't have had that 23 problem. 24 (Laughter.) 25 DR.HILLER: Thewater heaterwasproperly 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443352 1 sized. For that application it was, I could have 2 given him a tank three times the size, he would 3 have

-- 4 MR. VAGO: You don't want to buy that big 5 a water heater. 6 DR. HILLER: Well, Idon't want to supply 7 a customer -- 8 MR. KUSTERER: I think that there are 9 tremendous concerns and again I feel thatdepending on 10 the appliance, whether it be gas, electric or oil, 11 theyare all different, obviously. The recoveries are 12 different andwe all know that. And therefore if you 13 are living with something, such as electric, and then 14 go to gas or vice versa, or an alternate fossil fuel, 15 your lifestyle will change'because you must correct 16 that lifestyle in order for you to live. 17 DR. HILLER: Within limits. 18 MR.KUSTERER: Within limits, okay. So it 19 is extremely important that we realize that, and I 20 guess everybody does. Like I say, I apologize for 21 being a poor dumb farm boy, but this is not the norm. 22 This is strictly electric. It does not take into 23 consideration gas or oil. And, you know, I am 24 concerned that we are going in that direction. 25 DR. HILLER: I would love to see more 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443353 

### 1 information like this from fossil burning water 2 heaters. I just don't have it. I am pretty willing 3 tobet, basedon the customer base that wehad and the 4 average consumptions that are represented there, that 5 the average gas customer is not going to look much 6 different than the average electric customer. 7 MR. KUSTERER: Well, Idisagree. 8 DR.HILLER: Because we've got somanyof 9 our customers that don't ever come close to running 10 out of hot water, even with an electric tank. 11 MR. KUSTERER: I disagree. 12 DR. HILLER: Theydidn't change theiruse 13 pattern,because theydidn't come close torunningout 14 of hot water in the first place. Now, we are not 15 going to resolve that issue until we get the data, so 16 we can agree to -- 

### 17 MR. KUSTERER: Okay,mypoint is in order 18 to have a fairplaying field, how are we going to get 19 that data? 

### 20 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. I 21 believe sir that ifyou are livingonLong Islandwith 22 17 centsper kilowatt electric rateversus gasandyou 23 use 15 minute showers like your friend there in the 24 house, youwill change your living patterns, because 25 the cost is just astronomical. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443354 1 DR. HILLER: You'd probably get rid of 2 your electric water heaterat 17 cents a kilowatts, is 3 what you would do. Now let me come back to the tank 4 issue now for a second and this will all start to come 5 together. 6 What we've done here is we have done some 7 very simple crude analysis. And you can do this more 8 refined, but for purposes of this presentation and 9 understanding these issues, we did it simply. Looking 10 at how much hot water, different types of water 11 heaters can deliver the function. 12 In this case, this lower line is a 50 13 gallon single element tank with a 4500 watt element. 14 The blue line is a 50 gallon dual tank with two 4500 15 watt elements. The green line is 50 gallon gas water 16 heater with 35,000 btu per hour firing rate, .76 17 percent input efficiency. 18 The red line is an 80 gallondual element, 19 dual 4500 watts. And if you look, and this is kind of 20 an estimate of hot water delivery. What we assumed 21 here was the.first draw can give you 90 percent of 22 actual tank volume. And then there is some time lag 23 ; while you reheat the water once you've taken that 24 first draw and before you can get any water or use 25 potential out of it.

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443355 

### 1 In this case, we are using 110 as the 2 temperaturewehadto reachbeforewe tookmorewater, 3 andwe've got different plots for 135versus 110. And 4 there is anumber of interesting characteristics that 5 come out, let me just point themout. Youwill note, 6 that regardless of how you plot this and what 7 temperature you use andwhatever assumptions youwant 8 to make, there is a region, and note these are all 9 roughly the same size. 10 We used 90 percent, we assumed that the 11 actual tank volume was 90 percent of nominal volume, 12 well it is not quite, it is 95 percent for possible 13 argument. But it is probably not enough to really 14 show up on the curve. And it will be assumed that 90 15 percent of that actual volume was usable before it 16 dropped in temperature. 17 Several characteristics. You see, first 18 of all, single element tanks take a long time to 19 recover because they've got to heat the whole tank. 20 You see, the dual element tanks don't take nearly as 21 long to recover, but they don't recover as much. All 22 right, they are only heating the upper 25 percent or 23 so. 24 You seethat fossilwaterheaters,because 25 they have so much higher heating input rate, this is 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443356 1 like a 10KW input rate, so it would be like a 7600 2 watt input rate to the water, 3413 btu per kilowatt 3 hour. And this is 3413 instead of 35,000, that would 4 be a 10KW firing rate and at 76 percent efficient, you 5 would a 7600 watt input rate. So it is not quite 6 double the input rate of a 4500 watt element. But you 7 empty it, andyou can onlyget so much hot water. And 8 then you've got to wait until that whole tank gets 9 heated up again, thenyou get anotherbunch. Thenyou 10 wait some more, get another bunch. Wait some more, 11 get another bunch. 12 There is a region of time where how you 13 plot this, where the same size water heater, dual 14: element tanks have a region of time where they can 15 provide a little bit more hot water sooner than the 16 much higher firing rate of fossil water heaters. 17 That doesn't happen by accident. The 18 water heater manufacturers figured that out a long 19 time ago. And they figured out therefore, to give 20 adequate performance of electric water heaters, they 21 figured out where toput theirupper elements, and the 2:2 fact that they needed upper elements to do that. 23 So that was not an accident. That was 24 design feature that the water heater manufacturers 25 built into to their electric water heaters, by 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443357 

### 1 figuring our where to put the elements and how big 2 they had to be. Okay. Let me just show you for a 3 second, ifyouhad 135 degrees, it just takes a little 4 longer to reach the temperature before you take the 5 draw. 6 So this is assuming thatyou take the draw 7 only when it reaches 135. This one was assuming you 8 took the drawwhen it reached 110. By the way, this 9 plot wouldbe the sameplot, regardless of the initial 10 temperature for the firstdraw. You look, itwouldbe 11 the same number of gallons whether it was 135 or 110. 12 This is just looking at how long it took to reheat to 13 a usable temperature. 14 Now let's do some overlay, this is where 15 it starts to get interesting. Let me overlay first a 16 28 gallonper daycustomer, theyhada 50 gallonwater 17 heater, and lookwhathappens here. We see that their 18 consumptions are so low, that even a single element 19 tank, they have never run out of hot water. To be 20 honest it is above the once a month curve. They 21 didn't need a water heater that big. 22 How big a water heater did they need? 23 Well, I've got a 30 and 40 gallon down here, let's 24 see. Here's a 30 gallon, let's see if a 30 gallon 25 would work. All right, here's our 30 gallon, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443358 

### 1 unfortunately we didn't do that one color. You can 2 see the single element tank, the 30 gallon, hits the 3 once per week line. We know pretty much you better 4 keep the customer's uses happy with once a week. You 5 better be able tomeet that load. 6 And the fact that that line crosses over 7 here, means that a single element tank wouldnot have 8 worked for them. Looking at what the dual element 9 tankdoes. It, and Irealize nowafter seeing some of 10 these, we are going to go back and plot these giving 11 five and tenminutes as well as the shape of the curve 12 down here. But a 30 gallon is probably all they 13 needed. Theydidn't need a 50. 14 An interesting thing started to happen, 15 though. Look where these curves start to intersect 16 and that the tank can do versus what the customer 17 needed. The interesting point which drives the size 18 for that water heater that that customer would have 19 needed, is down in this time range. Fifteen, 30, 45 20 and that always is the case, andyou are going to see 21 that in a minute. 22 Let me go now, here is a 63 gallon a day 23 customer and let me put the 50 gallon tank back on 24 here. In this case, we see the single element tank 25 crosses the once per week line. A single element 50 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 959 1 gallon tank would not have been adequate for that 2 customer. A dual element 50 gallon doesn't even come 3 anywhere close to the once amonth line. Fifty gallon 4 was more than adequate for that customer and so was 5 the gas water heater. 6 They happened to have an 80 at that site. 7 That's what was there when we came and we didn't 8 change it. Their tank was waybigger than they need, 9 and therefore their operating costs were higher than 10 they should have been. The tank was oversized for 11 their consumption needs. You wouldn't have 12 anticipatedwhenyou built that house that you should 13 have put an 80 in. That just happened to be there 14 when we showed up and we didn't change it. 15 They couldhavegotten away,now let'sput 16 the 40 gallon up and see if could have gotten away 17 with a 40 gallon. Interesting, this is a 40 gallon 18 tank. A 40 gallon dual element would have worked. A 19 40 gallon gas is getting kind of questionable. It is 20 getting close to the once a week line. 21 Notice where these, so the right size 22 electricwaterheater for this customer, anacceptable 23 size would have been 40 gallons, 30 is probably a 24 little bit too smaller. Now clearly, a 40 gallon gas 25 wouldn't have worked there, but a 40 gallon electric 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443360 1 wouldhave. But again, the time frame that drives the 2 necessary size for that customer is way down here, it 3 is no where near one hour. 4 And it is always that way. Let's look at 5 some bigger use customers now. Let's go to customer 6 696. This is the 83 gallons a day customer. Let's 7 put the 50 gallon water heater back up there. They 8 happen to have a 50 gallon water heater there. A 9 single element tankwouldn't have worked. You can see 10 that a single element 80 gallon, which would have come 11 out more like here, probably would have worked. 12 So if they were going to have a single 13 element tank, it would have had to be an 80. A 50 14 wouldn't have worked, but an 80 probably would have. 15 A 50 gallon electricworks just fine there andwe know 16 that. That customer rarely runs out of hot water and 17 they are pretty small run outs when they do occur. 18 A 50 gallon gas, again, would have been 19 questionable there. Now that doesn't always happen. 20 These are, you know, it just happens to be the shape 21 that these particular customers use hot water. Now 22 let's go down to the one with the spa tub. That's the 23 one with the spa tub and the teenage daughters with 24 long hair. 25 A single element tank, not a chance. A 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443361 

### 1 dual element, 50 gallon is questionable. It crosses 2 that once a month line a lot. In fact, they had a 50 3 gallon electric dual element when we started. And 4 right away, early into the test, we discerned that 5 that was inadequate for that level. 6 Similarly, a 50 gallon gas, if they had 7 had one, would have been inadequate for that level. 8 Clearly, it crosses the once per week line. A 50 9 gallon electric would have been a little bit better 10 than the 50 gallon gas under that customer. We took 11 it out and gave them an 80 gallon dual element and 12 then we stayed way above their operating range, and 13 they never run out. 14 Nowwhat happens here? Once a week they 15 are using their spa tub, at least once a week. And 16 they are emptying, in a very short period of time, 17 that tank to fill the tub. That's what's going on. 18 And that's why even with a muchhigher firing rate of 19 a fossil fire water heater, they will run out of hot 20 water. 21 Because you are not providing a heating 22 rate anywhere near fast enough to heat water real 23 time, so you empty the tank. Here is an example of a 24 customer who needed a bigger tank and we gave them a 25 bigger one. It is the only one in the test program 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443362 1 where we did that. Now let's go on to the last 2 customer. This is the 76 gallon per day customer. 3 They too happened to have a 50 gallon 4 water heater. It works. You can see there was a 5 little bit of a range here, where we are still above 6 the once a week line, we are below the once a month 7 line. We don't know, and it is somewhat a function of 8 the customer, as to whether or not this is important 9 to them or not. 10 A lot of these having to dowithmachines, 11 and the customer never knows it. When they are down 12 in the range where they are going to get a few run 13 outs. Fifty 50 gallon gas here, and again for that 14 customer, and these are high use customer. The 15 average customers, none of the tanks came close to 16 running out of hot water. These are high use 17 customers, above the norm. 18 Fifty gallon gas would have been 19 questionable. Fifty gallon dual element electric 20 works, a single element wouldn't, 80 gallon would have 21 been overkill. Now, that brings usback to, and again 22 you can see, thepoint where we cross, what determines 23 the necessary size of the water heater to keep that 24 customer happy, is down here, 15 minutes, 30 minutes. 25 That's what plumbers learned a long time ago. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 da63 1 If you took any one single factor for 2 determining the necessary size of the water heater 3 it's first draw. The reheat rate is clearly important 4 to the single element tank. It would have taken a lot 5 longer and it would have been unsatisfactory. The 6 dual element tank was satisfactory. So there is a 7 reheat issue. But lacking any other information, the 8 most dominant thing is the first draw. 9 It is not the only factor, but it is the 10 most common factor. Now, if we try and do this with 11 a single rating point, for the purposes of sizing and 12 picking out what water heater you would want to use, 13 howwould we do that? So I'm trying to figure out, if 14 we went with a single rating point and number, right 15 now we call it first hour. 16 Clearly, first hour, even let'sgo back to 17 our high use customer, our 124 gallon per day 18 customer, where you just double the norm. Let's go 19 down to one hour. Gas water heater is way up in this 20 range, but that is irrelevant to the customer. What 2:L drove the size of that water heater happened down 22 here. 23 What they needed was driven by a much 24 shorter time frame. So clearly, if you are going to 25 come up with a number that tells you how to size a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433

### 1 water heater for the application, one hour isnot the 2 time frame. That'swhyyoudon't see anywhen Italk. 3 I don't say first hour rating, I say hot water 4 delivery rate. 5 It is very clear from this that even a 6 customer that this twice the national average or even 7 then some, and I will come back to that issue later 8 on, one hour is way too long. Irrelevant to the 9 customer, from a sizing standpoint. Now if, let's 10 pick some what ifs for what time frame that ought to 11 be. If we picked, and let's say that the green line 12 was right on 30 minutes there. 13 Ifwepicked29 minutes,okay, as asingle 14 ratingpoint, then the single element electricandgas 15 fossilwater heaterwould have the same rating, okay. 16 The dual element electric wouldhave a somewhat higher 17 rating. Okay. Neither one of those would have been 18 adequate for the level. If we now go to 31 minutes, 19 the gas water heater rating goes way up far from the 20 electric. 21 It still wouldn't have been adequate for 22 the low, but would have served way more than 32 2:3 minutes than the customer needed. Now let's go back 24 to the second one for a minute. Now, something very 25 interestinghappens and it showsyou the problemwith 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443365 1 the single rating number. We are just, you know, we 2 just happened to discover that these things happened 3 as we did this. We didn't try and make this happen. 4 Again, this is our 50 gallon gas overlay 5 here. This is a case where a 50 gallon gas wouldn't 6 have worked. A 50 gallon electric did. It just. 7 happened tobe the case with that customer. If we had 8 done a rating point at 31 minutes, the gas water 9 heaterwould have gotten ahigher rating than the dual 10 element electric, but the gas water heater wouldn't 11 have worked and the electric would have. 12 So what do you do and what's that number 13 mean to you? It doesn't mean anything. Even if you 14 have the higher rating, the customer would, there is 15 a piece of missing information in the hot water 16 delivery rating. That in a vacuum, doesn't tell you 17 anything. What you have to know andwhat the plumbers 18 know, the plumbers kind of know that people use hot 19 water like this. 20 They've learned it by experience and they 21 knowwhat sizewaterheaters work for the application. 22 So any single value rating regardless needs the other 23 piece of information, needs better information on how 24 people use hot water, in order to size the system. 25 And we tend to forget that when we are looking for a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443366 

### 1 hot water delivery rating. 2 Even if we did the plot based approach 3 like we are doing here, that by itself doesn't tell 4 you anything. It onlymeans something when you have 5 the consumption data to go with it. Clearly,we need 6 better consumption information. I don't claim that 7 our 14 test sites are statistically valid sample 8 sites. 9 We need to get some for fossil water 10 heaters and various types oil, gas and propane. We 11 need to getmore electrics. We need to get a lot more 12 information on customer, you know, demographics and 13 appliances in the home and etcetera. If we have 14 enough of that, if we got a statistically balanced 15 sample size, different regions of the country with 16 different setpoint temperaturesandcoldwater ending 17 temperatures, etcetera, eventually we could do a 18 statistical analysis to come up with some 19 representative curves that we ought to design to. 20 And that could all be built into a sizing 21 program of some sort, you know, it doesn't have tobe 22 graphically like this. Butyou can see the down side 23 of trying to use a single number. Because here is a 24 casewhere the singlenumber, evenifyou didn't,what 25 does that mean? The amount of water that the gas 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443367 

### 1 water heater can provide from here to here is 2 irrelevant to the customer. Because they never use 3 that much. 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty,NIST. I 5 thinkyour method has merit and if we had more data, 6 whatwouldyou foresee itbecominganASHRAEhandbook, 7 becoming a guideline that's available through 8 different parties? 9 DR. HILLER: For one thing, therewouldbe 10 a sizing computerprogramput together that hopefully 11 all the manufacturers and stuff would use. We're 12 probably, if you look at howwater heaters are really 13 sized in this country today, it isprobably overkill. 14 They are probably going to keep doing what they are 15 doing. 16 Andthe result ofthat is, often timesyou 17 get awater heater that is bigger thanyou need. You 18 pay a little higher operating cost because thehigher 19 losses are. 20 MR. DOUGHERTY: From the test procedures 21 standpoint then, you would have that tool there 22 eventually that wouldbeveryvaluable Iagree. From 23 the DOE test procedures standpoint, what would you 24 advocate? No sizing descriptor? Some kind of sizing 25 descriptor combination that supplements this 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443368 

### 1 information, like first draw volume, confer recovery? 2 Bring itbackto the testprocedure. What 3 would you like to see in the test procedure? 4 DR. HILLER: You've hit the nail on the 5 head. It is hard to figure out what you should do. 6 And clearly, having a single number regardless of how 7 you come up with it, really isn't very useful. And 8 clearlywe can see what, if you reallywant to figure 9 out the right size water heater for an application, 10 you need two pieces of information. You need these 11 plots and you need the consumption lines. 12 Are we going to do that? I don't know. 13 But that's what you need. Any single number, if you 14 have it, regardless of whetheryou did it on a first 15 draw capability only or, you know, 15 minutes or an 16 hour or six hours or whatever, none of those.numbers 17 mean anything. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, from the 19 Oregon Energy Office. Iwould like to interject one 20 thingherebeforewego toomuch farther sincewe seem 21 to be wandering on to it. We don't have, in the 22 northwest, quite as detailed a data as that, but we 23 havegot a lot of experienceworkingwithbuilders and 24 plumbers inwaterheater and shower headprograms and 25 other utility basedprograms, both gas and electric. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202) 234-443369 1 Andmostly what we've discovered is, that 2 builders andplumbers are not sizing waterheaters for 3 their customers. They are not sizing it because 4 there's morepeople in the family. Theyare sizing it 5 because the house either has a spa tub or it doesn't. 6 And we all know that in a period of time that is much 7 shorter than the lifetime of most of these water 8 heaters, the customers that are in that house now, on 9 average, aren't going to be there. 10 There is going to be a new set of 11 customers, who may use the spa tub not at all, even 12 though it is there. And for them,youknow, thewater 13 heater that was put there is oversized. So I don't 14 think you are going to find people really sizing to a 15 family, they are going to be sizing to the building 16 and what it has in it. 17 Whether it is four bedrooms or five 18 bedrooms and can hold a much larger family, even if 19 only two people live there now, like the one I live 20 in. Or, it is a condo that may onlyhave one bedroom. 21 They are going to look at the spa, the existence or 22 non-existence of a spa, how many showers, the 23 potential of the building to hold a lot of people, 24 even if it doesn't. And that's how they are going to 25 size the water heater when one is put in. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443370 

### 1 So I don't know how relevant it is in 2 every case to tell how any individual customer or 3 group of customers looks. It is what are the houses 4 and the buildings that people live in look like, and 5 how manypeople could live there one day. Because I 6 think that's how the plumbers and the builders are 7 going to do it. 8 DR. HILLER: There is anumber of us here 9 in this room today that are on anASHRAE subcommittee 10 to look at issues like that, what sizing criteria 11 ought to be, and you are right. And really what we 12 need to do, from a sizing perspective is to get a 13 statistically balanced sample size andcomeupwitha, 14: just like we do on temperatures, a 95th percentile 15 design consideration of some sort. It is a 95th 16 percentile customer on a statistically average basis 17 given their appliance or whatever. 18 Fromapractical standpoint, theplumbers 19 are going to keep doing what they are doing. They 20 know that if they give a customer a 50 gallon dual 21: element electric, actually unfortunately some 22 plumbers don't know that andthere are regions of the 23 country where they are putting in single element 24 tanks, and those customers are often unhappy. 25 Dual element customers are pretty happy. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443371 

### 1 Single element customers, you can see that clearlyon 2 this thing, single element tanks take so much longer 3 to recover. And Iwould like to see, you know, that 4 people know that. I struggle with that issue doing 5 what I do for a living, trying to keep customers 6 happy. Anyyou've got toeducate them. You've either 7 got toput inadual element tank oryou've got to put 8 in a bigger single element tank. 9 There are areas of the country, Oklahoma 10 for example, where the common, Idon't know how this 11 got startedbut it is the norm and it is really hard 12 to change it. In manyparts of Oklahoma, in most of 13 Oklahoma, they put in single element tanks. They 14 don't want to stock dual element tanks. And you've 15 got a lot of unhappy customers out there because of 16 that. How do we educate them to do that? 1'7 MR. LIU: You can start a drill taking 18 into consideration the number of bathrooms in the 19 residence. 20 DR. HILLER: We know, we have all that 21 information. 2:2 MR. LIU: If you have only two, then the 2:3 time frame for the three daughters, with only two 24 bathrooms, they have to take more than half hour to 25 take their shower only one at a time. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443372 1 DR. HILLER: We have the number of 2 bathrooms. We have the number of bedrooms. We've got 3 all that information. We can look at it any way we 4 want. We've got the square footage of the house. We 5 have the age and the genders and all that stuff, 6 information on all the appliances. 7 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer from Bock 8 again. If the plumbers know how to size water 9 heaters, thanwhyaren't theyhere tellingus how they 10 do it andwheredo they get that information? I mean, 11 is it part of their license requirement? You are 12 relying so heavily on plumbers know how to do this. 13 DR. HILLER: And in some cases -- 14 MR. KUSTERER: And I don't find that the 15 case. Being an educator and traveling all over North 16 America, I am finding this is not normal, this is not 17 the truth. They are very adequate in what they do 18 with regard to replacements. But as far as initial 19 sizing, they don't size by load. 20 DR. HILLER: They don't do it 

### 21 scientifically,that's right. Theydokind ofwhat

-- 22 MR.KUSTERER: Well, if they,according to 23 your statement, that they have the wherewithal to all 24 this sizing, why aren't they here telling us how we 25 should do it? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 - -73 1 DR. HILLER: I probably overstated the 2 case that they really know how to do it, because they 3 really don't. 4 MR. KUSTERER: Thank you. 5 DR. HILLER: Let's say they are lucky in 6 that, you know, the standard 30's, 40's and 50's tend 7 to satisfymost customer and theykind of, their rules 8 of thumb, with the possible exception of single 9 element tanks, they are lucky that they tend to work. 10 Single elements tanks that they tend to 11 work the same way and they don't. 12 MR.STANONICK: Frank StanonickwithGAMA. 13 Again, just so everybody recognizes. You keep talking 14 about a 50 gallon gas water heater. Well, you are in 15 fact talking about the 50 gallon gas water heater you 16 assumed for this analysis. Which is in fact the 17 lowest input 50 gallon that probably is out there. 18 So if we went to the other end of that 19 extreme the graph would change for that one, it might 20 change some things. 21 DR. HILLER: Clearly, you'd like to do 22 this with real draw patterns like that from some test 23 results. 24 MR. STANONICK: My only point was, you 25 know, for the brevity of yourpresentation, saying 50 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -474 

### 1 gallons in some cases wouldn't do it. In fact, if 2 that 50 gallonwouldn't do it, anotheronemight. But 3 the other, tome, the other dilemmawith this is if we 4 wanted to do this right, okay, you need to know the 5 pattern, all right. 6 Inmost,well certainly inanewhome,you 7 don't know thepattern. It doesn't haveanyoccupants 8 yet. And even in an existing home, the only thing 9 close to knowing the pattern will be some perception 10 of thepeople inthe house as to what theythink their 11 pattern is. 12 I guess where I am going with this, you 1:3 know, this is useful information and it certainly 14 would be a more precise way to size, but you don't 15 know one end of the equation. And you never will. 16 Unless you go in and, unless we had a, change the 17 whole system. And the plumberwent into the house and 18 instrumented the people's houses for a week and then 19 said, oh there's a pattern, you need this water 20 heater. 21 Iguesswhat I'm saying is I thinkwe are 22 looking, we are trying to grab something that is too 23 elusive. And I guess I will go back to my statement 24 that Ibelieve it wouldbe a better approach to say, 25 okay, let's use firsthourratingor somemeasure that 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443375 

### 1 is going to allow you to identify the water heaters 2 that are comparable in capability and then how that 3 might getused as sizing,willbe left upto everyone, 4 I guess. As long as it is not some real far out 5 thing. 6 DR. HILLER: Let me paraphrase what you 7 said the way I say that. Let's put back our 83.4 8 gallonaday customer here. And theirplot is not too 9 much different from the 76 gallon a day customer. 10 None of the restof thehouses have spa tubs, but that 11 one house. When you really size a water heating 12 system, you can't just size to the minimum customer 13 -usesthat would be in that home. 14 You've got to kindof size for some, like 15 I said 95th percentile customers or something. And 16 you've got to figure out what that 95th percentile 17 customer is. And maybe it is a customer like this. 18 If we had enough data in a statistically valid sample 

### 19 size, we could figure that out. And then say, size to 20 thispattern, basedonnumberofbedrooms for everyone 21 and do the correlation. 22 You are right, you don't size for anyone 23 customer. You've got to size for what is likely, 24 statistically likely to work. And if you have the 25 information on the appliances, you could probably do 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 - l76 1 that. Clearly, a spa tub makes a big difference. 

### 2 Because when you use it, you empty the small tank 3 completely. 4 Coming up with any single rating to do 5 this, I mean, we could come up with a statistically 6 representative curve or set of curves based on 7 appliances. It is a lot of work, but it could be 8 done. Comingback to the rating issue then, talk some 9 practicalities ifyou try todo a singlenumber rating 10 approach. 11 Ipointed out the differences -- it is a 12 fact, regardless of how you do this tank delivery 13 capability measurement, that a lot of the gas water 14 heater, fossil fire water heaters have a big spike 15 right in the middle of the time of interest. And it 16 is 100 percent difference in delivery. 17 If you have a rating, and hopefully I've 13 convinced you that one hour has nothing to do with 19 this issue. Nowthe real regionof interest is amuch 20 shorter time frame. But even if you did use the one 21 hour, there is still a big spike to be dealt with, 22 right in the middle of the one hour time frame. 23 It makes a big difference whether it is, 24 you know, 59 minutes or 61 minutes. But here it is a 25 third, here it is a half, relative to the unit. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443377 

### 1 That's a 100 percent change in the delivery ratingby 2 just moving one minute. Another thing that happens 3 from a practical test standpoint, is the same thing 4 happens with a slight shift in temperature or 5 thermostat behavior at some time interval that you 6 pick. 7 Let's say that youpick 31 minutes here, 8 

### insteadof 29minutes, soyou were atwhat you thought 9 was going to be the other side of the curve. Your 10 thermostat, thermostats, andmost aremanufacturered, 11 thermostats are notvery repeatable. Theyarepretty 12 inexpensivedevices, theyare adequate for thetask at 13 hand. But you can't rely on them to repeat within a 14 fairly wide range of repeatability and temperature. 15 AtPotomac Electricwe tested14 identical 16 tanks at the ETL Testing Lab, ran them all on the DOE 17 four hour test cycle, over and over and over again, 18 day after day after day, and looked at the 19 repeatability of the thermostat internal temperature. 20 The dead bands were much more repeatable when turned 21 on, than the turn offs. 22 But we saw a plus or minus eight degree 23 variation in the turn on and turn off temperature. 24 They are not all that repeatable. And just because of 25 that effect alone, you could be up on the other side 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443378 

### 1 of the curve if you don't pick your tank carefully. 2 And the fact that that big spike happens right at the 3 time of interest, even the dual element tanks were 4 spiked at the time of interest. 5 Fromapractical test standpoint, it could 6 happen by accident, or it could happen by design to 7 gain the system. If the manufacturer, when they see 8 if we specify the 31 or 29 minute period here, for 9 example, the manufacturers could figure out fairly 10 quickly how to tweak the thermostat behavior to put 11 them on the other side, to move that spike back a 12 little bit and get a 100 percent increase in their 13 rating as a result. 14 Is that of any significance to the 15 customer? They also can tweak your heating rates. 16 Getting arating that's wayup there, versuswaydown 17 here really isn't what is important to the customer. 18 That's my big concern. It makes a 100 percent 19 difference in the ratingon the tank, but it makes all 20 that extra capacity is useless to the customer. 2:L Sowhat is the meaning of having that 100 22 percent higher rating? It doesn't mean anything. It 23 doesn't do them anygood. For example, whenyou have 24 a littlebithigherheating rate, thingswouldheatup 25 faster, thatwouldmove this spike to the left and be 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443379 1 able to, it would be more likely to be adequate. 2 But what was really important was just 3 that little piece of it. The rest of it wasn't 4 important to start with. So there is this game, the 5 practicality of the sensitivity in the test. And also 6 the game that can be played to get a better rating, 7 but then what does that rating mean to the customer? 8 How do you pick your water heater based on that? The 9 problem is, you can't. 10 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer from Bock 11 Water Heaters again. Can we cut to the chase andwhat 12 is important? Imean,what is important toyou? What 13 is your recommendation? What figure should we be 14 using? 15 DR. HILLER: Okay, let me take it in 16 pieces, there are a whole bunch of pieces to that. 17 MR.KUSTERER: Well, beforeyou take it in 18 pieces, I think we are do for a break. 19 FACILITATOR RABA: It sounds good. All in 20 favor, break. Back in 15 minutes please. 21 (Whereupon, the foregoing 22 matter went off the record at 23 10:38 a.m. andwent back on the 24 record at 10:55 p.m.) 25 FACILITATOR RABA: This is a very 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443380 

### 1 comprehensive presentation. I would like to move 2 forward and thinkhowwe couldrelate this to the test 3 procedure. Iwant to hear some otherpoints of view 4 also. Inote that the comment, one hour is too long. 5 Perhaps we can nail down maybe some ideas as to what 6 is the right time frame for the test procedure and 7 proceed to focus on the future. 8 So we would like to invite some other 9 views on that. One hour is too long, what could it 10 be? Any thoughts on that? 11 MR. STANONICK: Well, let me go the other 12 way. I mean, I clearly don't have the command of 13 these graphs that Carl has, but at least in some of 14 the cases thegraph seems to indicate that the rate of 15 change, if you will, flattens out around one hour. 16 Imean some of these graphs do indicate, 17 and Iam specifically lookingat theonce per day one. 18 It seems to indicate that an hour time period is a 19 significant period of concern, because the rate of 20 change kind of flattens out. Now granted, the 21. greatest rate of change is in the smallerperiod,but 22 that, you know, is just logical. 23 But looking at some of these graphs, it 24 looks to me that there would be some indication that 25 at least some of these uses you should look at how 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443381 1 much water they use in an hour. I guess my point is 2 that this tome does not clearly show that one hour is 3 the wrong time period. 4 And so the other thing is, and again this 5 is more historical, there is part of the genesis of 6 the first hour recovery rate or first hour ratingwas 7 the concept of a recovery rate. And history in water 8 heater industry was you based recovery rate on what 9 you could recover in an hour. 10 Again, it is a convenient measure. But 11 this data seems to indicate there is also some 12 validity to an hour time period. 13 -FACILITATOR RABA: So, is it too long, 14 maybe an hour is fine, go ahead please. 15 MR. DUCH: I believe I support the 16 gentleman from GAMA. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Your name, sir? 18 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. 19 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 

### 20 MR. DUCH: Because Ibelieve if youwork 21 backwards from those graphs it looks to me as if, if 22 you take the one hour rating, one of the graphs 23 superimposed on the other, at the one hour, any water 24 heaterworks for theonehourgoing backwards, itwill 25 work for ten minutes. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234443382 1 DR. HILLER: No, absolutely incorrect, 2 totally wrong. This data tells you exactly the 3 opposite. 4 MR. DUCH: That's not the way I see it. 5 DR. HILLER: This data tells you thatwhat 6 happens in one hour tells you nothing about what, how 7 to size your water heater. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views, please. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi, Steve Rosenstock, 10 Edison Electric Institute. What, especiallywith the 11 data that Dr. Hiller has shown, you know, maybe you 12 could have as amultiple rating period. Because it is 13 obvious if you look at the function of peak demand, 14 I'll say for the hot waterusage. You know,depending 15 on whether you are looking at day versus week versus 16 month, you maybe have two rating periods. 17 And again, there is also the dead band 18 problem and the turn on, turn off problem. Maybe you 19 do 20 minutes, 40 minutes and an hour. Because there 20 could be a variety of customers out there who are 2: going to be, I!ll say, at various happiness levels. 22 I'll put it that way. 2:3 Such that, I'll say you kind of cover, 24 like with other issues you look at the band width and 25 for a 20 minute rating period, you know, certain all 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 ---83 the customers will be happy, or 99 percent of the customers will be happy based on the water heater installed, versus the 40 minutes there will be a 95 percent satisfaction based on the size of the water heater and the usage pattern versus an hour. But again, I think what Dr. Hiller has shown is that again there is a critical time period, especially much less than an hour that needs to be looked at for, I'll say, customer satisfaction. FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. Other views, please. Someone who hasn't spokenyet? Frank. MR. STANONICK: Frank Stanonick, GAMA. I just have a question for Carl because I want to understandhow to read this. I'm looking at the 68.9 gallon per day chart, okay. And

-- DR. HILLER: What's the customer number? MR. STANONICK: 695, would that be the number? MR. KUSTERER: Right. MR. STANONICK: Anyway, I've just been looking at the once a day line, okay. I'm reading that to say that for this customer, once a day they have a, let's call thema combination of draws, but in

an hour period, they draw approximately 20 gallons. Is that the correct way to interpret that? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21L 22 2:3 24 2584 1 DR. HILLER: They do that at least once a 2 day. 

### 3 MR. STANONICK: At least once a day. Now 4 this also says that at least once aday in a 15minute 5 period they draw 12 gallons. 6 DR. HILLER: At least once a day. 7 MR. STANONICK: Okay, but that 15 minute 8 period could also be part of my hour period, is that 9 what that's tellingme? 10 DR. HILLER: Itcouldbe, notnecessarily. 11 MR.STANONICK: Okay,yeah. Well, I just, 12 you know, Iwas listening to what the gentleman back 13 there said and he said, well, that's not really what 14 it said. So Iam just trying to figure out, what does 15 it say. 16 Okay, so it says that once a day these 17 folks do draw a total of roughly 20 gallons in an 18 hour, all right. Theymay, at least once a day, in a 19 half hour drawprobably about 18. But Iguess -- 20 DR.HILLER: -- smallest tank tobe looked 

### 21 at, which is a 30 gallon tank, on that data. 22 MR. STANONICK: Uh huh. 23 DR. HILLER: The dailyaverage plot, this 24 would suggest, becauseyou couldoverlay the 30gallon 25 and that 30 gallon would be totally inadequate for 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 - -85 

### 1 that customer. You don't look at the daily stuff for 2 sizing purposes. Because that means, that all these 3 water heaters would be running out of hot water. 4 MR. STANONICK: All right, but if I look 5 at monthly, if I look at the monthly, again theway I 6 understand this Ithink an hourhas more validitynow 7 than a half hour. 8 DR. HILLER: For what? 9 MR. STANONICK: For trying to estimate 10 what these folks need. 11 DR.HILLER: Thiswould say,you know, if 12 you look at any of these time frames with a single 13 element tank, if you are just looking at the daily 14 stuff or even the weekly stuff, the daily stuff 15 clearly would suggest that any of these small tanks 16 would work with a single element, and that's not the 17 case. 18 You don't look at the daily stuff. That 19 maybe on average what happens, but youdon't size to 20 the average. You can't. We've got good data that 2: shows the statistical distribution of draw. Idon't 22 know if Ibrought those plots with me or not. 2:3 FACILITATOR RABA: Relating to the test 24 procedure, and the different methods proposed in the 25 Federal Register Notice as to where to go with this 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443386 

### 1 procedure of the first hour rating and the preferred 2 method that the questions are asking here. Can we 3 relatemore of your views towardthat endtoo,please. 4 DR.HILLER: This isn't forthat customer, 5 but I am just throwing this up here. This is the 6 statistical distribution of draws for the Ranger 7 Residence. And I forget, Ranger is 60 some odd 8 gallons a day, if Iremember, on average. 9 MR. KUSTERER: Ican't hear. 10 DR.HILLER: Isaid,Ranger Ithinkwas 60 11 some odd gallons a day on average. But this is how 12 the statistical distributionofwaterdraws inbins of 13 draw of a certain number of gallons over that draw. 14 We've got all that data. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: We have two comments. 16 One from EEI and one gentleman in the back. First 17 over here to the left please. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, Steve Rosenstock, 19 Edison Electric Institute. In terms of test 20 procedure, itdoes lookat, and also therewasanother 21 comment inhere about the actual draw per day is that 22 it seems that 64.3 gallons per day does seem to be on 23 the high side. That it seems like there is a lot of 24 statistical evidence that it is actuallya lower,more 25 in the 50 to 60 gallon range, rather than 64 gallon 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 -- 487 1 range. That's one comment. In terms of the test 2 procedure, that's one comment that I would have. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. Gentleman 4 in the back? 5 MR. VAUGHN: Jim Vaughn, Vaughn 6 Manufacturing. I would direct my question partially 7 to Mike. It seems that in terms of the test 8 procedure, we have two separate categories here. Dr. 9 Hiller has made a nice presentation about facts and 10 figures related to the actual energy used by the 11 customer. Is that thepurpose of the test procedure? 12 Or is thepurpose of the testprocedure to 13 pick a first hour rating that will fairly compare one 14 manufacturer's product with another manufacturer's 15 product? And if so, is there something about the one 16 hour period that unfairly compares those products. 17 Up until now, it has been my impression 18 that the purpose of a first hour rating was to form 19 categories so thatwe could fairly compareone product 20 with another product andput them in a manual in some 21 sort of an organizedway. If that's not true, then I 22 need to hear from Mike. 23 MR.MCCABE: Michael McCabe. Jim,you are 24 correct as far as the intention of the first hour 25 rating as it was originally developed. As with all 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 . - - - i88 

### 1 the other products, as far as a measure of capacity, 2 was tobe able toprovide for a measure of comparison 3 from one product to another. And it has been posed, 4 been a rather difficult product given the different 5 energy sources and also the different technologies 6 that exist. 7 DR. HILLER: Let me toss a legal hot 8 potato here, because I think it is very germane to 9 this discussion. Many of you in this room are 10 probably aware of efforts in the last two years made 11 by the AmericanGas Association to try and get codes 12 and standards changed, including ASHRAE, Council of 13 American BuildingOfficials, International Council of 14 BuildingOfficialsandSouthernBuildingCode Congress 15 International, to get those codes and standards 16 changed based on first hour rating numbers that 17 require larger electric water heaters. 18 They used first hour rating numbers from 19 in the GAMA directory and came to the assertion that 20 electric water heaters had to have equivalent first 21 hourratings to.gaswaterheaters to be adequate. And 22 they went to try to get the codes changed. And in 23 fact, theywere successful with the Southern Building 24 Code Congress International, which therefore required 25 an increase inrequired sizeof electricwaterheaters 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-443389 

### 1 to sizes that were oversized compared to what the 2 customer really needed. 3 That's what firsthourratingwasused for 4 in thepolitical sense. And therefore, regardless of 5 what the original intent was, that is how it has been 6 used in the field and this data clearly shows that it 7 is unnecessary to have an electric water heater have 8 the same rating, however you determine it, as a gas 9 water heater to adequately serve your customer. 10 But that iswhathasbeenuseful, and what 11 do we do about that. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Relating to the test 13 procedure? Go ahead, please. 14 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, American Gas 15 Association. I will respond to Carl. First hour 16 ratings became the law of the land. It ispart of the 17 labeling program. That's howyou ratewater heaters. 18 That's how, when you give it a label. What we 19 presentedmodel folks hadnothingtodo,nothing todo 20 with tryingto require larger electricwater heaters. 21. If you are having a problem with the rating scheme, 22 this is the place to take care of it. 23 Don't accuseusof sayingwe are tryingto 24 mandate larger electric water heaters based on our 25 presentations or ourproposals tomodel tradegroups. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443390 

### 1 Wehaveused existing testprocedures, andby the way, 2 while we are talking about, the same rating scheme 3 that you are not criticizing, is the rating scheme 4 that EDI commends in your own literature, whichwe've 5 alreadypresented to themodelgroups when theytryto 6 oppose it. 7 This is not the forum to take it up, but 8 if youwant to continue talking about that, Iwill be 9 glad to do that. What you've presented so far, is 10 your data which really hasn't undergone any kind of 11 analysisbutyourown. You'vemadethispresentation, 12 you don't know any otherdetails of how this data was 13 presented and you are expecting us to buy into it as 14 we sit around this table today. 15 If you want to talk about first hour 16 ratingandwhatyouragenda is andwhatyou are trying 17 to get and telling people that a 30 gallon water 18 heater in ahomewith fourpeople is adequate. Try it 19 yourself. Because you are wrong and you know it. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: I would like to get 21 back to the test procedure also. Clearly, there is 22 somedifferences of thought here. Iwould like to get 23 somemore views first. Andmaybewe shouldgoback to 24 our Federal Register Notice to look at some of the 25 questions thatwewere interested on finding outyour 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443391 

### 1 views on too. 2 Shouldwe reconsider the 1979 testmethod 3 for measuring the first hour rating? Should DOE 4 retainthe current testmethod formeasuringthe first 5 hour rating? Should DOE adopt a 1995 proposed test 6 method formeasuring the first hour rating? And then 7 should we adopt the ultimate test method proposed by 8 Dr. Hiller? 9 These are areas, again, bringing it back 10 to the test method and the one hour rating. Do you 11 have any comments? Iwanted to get thisback on track 12 for folks in the future, and what we can do work 13 together on this clearly controversial issue. But 14 let's try to surmount that and stick with the issue 15 please. Go ahead. 16 MR. STANONICK: Frank StanonickwithGAMA. 17 First of all, from ourperspective,most assuredlyDOE 18 should not retain the current 1990 or the current 19 procedures in the 1990 final rule. Andprimarily,we 20 have submitted comments before. 21 We think there is a fundamental error in 22 the calculation procedure, at the very least, that 23 results in situations, as an example, where you have 24 a 120 gallon electric water heater that comes out in 25 the first hour rating as 80. And to us that is 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 492 1 nonsensical, it defies logic, if you will. 2 And so we do, we also have a record with 3 comments, is basically supporting the concept of the 4 proposed test procedure that was in the 1995 proposed 5 revision. In the packet of material that has been 6 passed out, youwill see we have a letter and Iwould, 7 first of all, we did some, we had some data generated 8 by ETL, who runs our certification program, and it 9 starts at the bottom of the first page there. 10 What we did is have them run the revised, 11 the proposed revised test in the 1995 proposed rule 12 compared to the ratings we published. We are still 13 publishing ratings based on the old 1979 test 14 procedures. 15 MR. DOUGHERTY: With a slight 16 modification. 17 MR. STANONICK: Yes, with a slight 18 modification. But we purposely and so advised both 19 FTC and DOE that we thought it would be too confusing 20 to consumers if we published numbers that came from 21. the 1990 rule. So we are comparing actually, we 22 compared this new proposed revised test procedure to 23 the numbers we are publishing. 24 The manufacturer's claimed rating based 25 on, as Brian mentioned, there is really a slight 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -93 1 modification from the '79 procedure. Andwhat you can 2 see there is a number of tests we've run where that 3 delta is the difference between the revised procedure 4 and the current rating for each of the models we 5 tested. 6 And don't ask me why on 30 gallon gas the 7 average came out a little less. I can't explain that 8 one and I'll tell you from a manufacturer's 9 perspective, we don't care. You can see there the 10 sigma, that's the sigma of the sample model, so that 11 tells you what kind of spread you are looking at. 12 In general, the new test procedure does, 13 on average, give out a slightly higher number. The 14 same thing for electrics. You don't see any large 15 volume sizes there, basicallybecause in some cases we 16 only had one data point and I don't think it is going 17 to make sense togive you a statistical average on one 18 data point. 19 In any event, based on what we saw there, 20 and that represents over 100 water heaters that were 21 tested, we think that this proposed revised test 22 procedure does at least give you reasonable results. 23 It does, it is a reasonable way to lump products of 24 equal ability together. On the issue of one hour, I 25 think there is clearly, you know, there is indications 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443394 1 that one hour isn't a perfect number. The fact is no 2 number is. :3 It is better than many and certainly no 4 worse than any other number,but it certainlyhas some 5 historical basis. If we are talking about plumbers, 6 plumbers no recovery rate is an hour. They probably 7 confuse first hour rating with recovery rate, but if 8 anything, that causes oversizingwhich is again,maybe 9 not the Department of Energy's concern, but if you are 10 selling water heaters it is certainly a lesser sin 11 that undersizing. 12 I mean, if everybody undersized, there 13 would be a lot of energy saved, because you wouldn't 14 be having hot water. But the second part of this is 15 that, going back to this question of should we use the 16 '79 method? When the test procedures were first 17 proposed, there was for an interimperiod an optional 18 calculation, all right. 19 We would like to reintroduce the idea of 20 allowing manufacturers to use a conservative 2:1 calculation for the gardenvariety,what Iam going to 22 call the standard design water heater, whether it is 23 gas or electric, first hour rating number is fairly 24 predictable, all right. Andwe think that DOE should 25 reconsider the idea to allow manufacturers to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 ->^95 

### 1 calculate, rather than run a test. 2 Andwhen,andat themanufacturerschoice, 3 if he chooses to design in features that are going to 4 give a better than normal first hour rating, then he 5 can run the test and the test will in fact verify 5 whether those features work or not. But we came up 7 with some, our suggestions for calculations there. 8 They, I am not going to tell you that they are 9 absolutely the best calculations that fit the best. 10 It was kind of a semi, we just developed 11 this last week. So it probably could use some fine 12 tuning, to address the issue of recognizing, as Carl 13 mentioned, the single element electric isnot, Imean, 14 there is a reason why you have a dual element 15 electric. And it is really to recover, to provide 16 somehotwater, someportionof thehotwaterquicker. 17 So we separate out single and dual 18 elements there. And then just to further showyou at 19 leastwhat's behind our's here, we, the first term in 20 both of those calculations is a ratio of the volume, 21 restored volume, and we are using the rated volume. 22 And so for gas and oil we would say, okay, in the 23 first draw you are going to roughly pull out 80 24 percent of the rated volume. 25 DR. HILLER: When you say rated, do you 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443396 1 mean -- 

### ~~2 ~ MR.STANONICK: Ratedvolume, it is on the rating plate. Yeah 4 .1DR. HILLER: Not the actual. 5 MR. STANONICK: Yeah, because I can read 6 the ratedvolume, Idon't have to measure it. Imean, 7 we can use actual and the rates will just change. You 8 know, it is just numbers, it's math. And then for 9 electrics we use the .75. And then what we did is we 10 went back to ETL and said, okay, pull out some data 11 and show us the actual ratio of draw, the first draw, 12 versus the rated volume. 13 And sowhat you see down at the bottom of 14 Page 2 there is, and the data is attached. We looked 15 at ten units of each size and these were just picked 16 from tests we've been running. There is nothing 17 special about them. On the 40 gallon, typically, the 18 average was the ratio of the first draw for the rated 19 volume of 85 percent. 20 You can see there it graduallygoes up as 2:1 you go up in size. Well, basically you can also 22 assume, you know, a bigger water heater has more 23 input, some there's some connection there. We did the 24 same thing for electrics and as you can see there, for 25 the smaller volume electrics, the average ratio was 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -397 

### 1 78. Andyou went up to 50 gallon, 52 gallon, it goes 2 up to 85. 3 We onlyput that there to show youwe are 4 purposely selecting conservative numbers. 5 Manufacturers are willing that if DOE wouldgive them 6 the option to calculate, we would recognize, okay, 7 that'sgoingtobe aconservative calculationandthus 8 create an incentive that, in fact, if you are really 9 interested in promoting ahigh recovery or some other 10 product that has features that really do give 11 unusuallyhigh abilitytoprovide hot water, thenyou 12 could run the test. 13 This thing is not so broke that it 14 requires a dramatic overhaul. And the fact is, 15 whatever DOEputs inhere as a first hour rating, can 16 be used in some form or another. And I say that 17 because youpeople could use it as it's printed, they 18 coulduse it with some of their own adjustments, but 19 it could be used as a sizing type. 20 How you do that properly to me is not, 21 again, I've .said it before, is not the critical 22 question of the test procedures. You know, that will 23 occur outside the test procedures and it is going to 24 occurregardless of whatnumberyoupick. And Iguess 25 I justwant to say, letpeople figure it out for their 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -A98 

### own purposes. FACILITATOR RABA: 

### Thank you. Another comment. MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, just a couple of clarification points on the GAMA equations. FACILITATOR RABA: Your name, again. MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry, Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. What the variables P and E sub R, what are those? MR. STANONICK: I'm sorry, I've beenwith this too long. P is input and E sub R is recovery efficiency. Inthe case of electrics, the recovery is assumed tobe 98, that'swhy you get .98P and then the 3412 is converting kilowatts to BTU's. MR. ROSENSTOCK: Inputtinggallons, input in

-- MR. STANONICK: 

### No, energy. BTU's per hour. MR. ROSENSTOCK: Now with the electric units, would the values down at the bottom, are those 'forboth single and dual elements units? MR. STANONICK: Iamwilling to bet these are all dual element. Yeah, in fact they must be. 

### I'm not sure how single elements would test. DR. HILLER: First draws are driven by 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 2599 

### 1 volume andrelatively little todowithheatingrange. 2 MR. STANONICK: Right, but we usually, I 3 can't recall that we tested many single elements. 4 MR.DOUGHERTY: Actually,BrianDougherty, 5 NIST. Iwould have hoped that some of the deltas up 6 above the page for the electric single element would 7 have went down rather than up. Two element I can 8 understand going up, but the single element I would 9 hope that they actually went down. 10 Iwas actuallycurious whetheror not any 11 of those listed were single element in that example. 12 MR. STANONICK: Give me a second here. 13 There were very few electric units that went down. 14 And again, I've got tobelieve that, just in terms of 15 what we were looking at, you know,we select units to 16 randomly test for our certification program. So we 17 just ran this additional test on the units we 18 selected. 19 So there wasn't any, let's say, plan to 20 try and identify single from double. And again, I'm 2: not aware thatwe, Ican tryand find out, but Idon't 2:2 think we really tested any single elements. 23 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. 24 MR.ROSENSTOCK: The otherquestion Ihad, 25 interms of the first partof these formulas, .8times 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433100 1 the volume, the rated volume, versus .75. Is there, 2 in terms of the electric, how is it determined that it 3 is .75 times the volume? Was it field tested? 4 MR. STANONICK: First of all, if you look 5 at -- 6 MR.DOUGHERTY: Tolerances allowed on the 7 tanks. 8 MR. STANONICK: If you look at Attachment 9 One, which is the supporting data on our comparative 10 first hour rating test, youwill see that we did rated 11 volume versus measured, okay. Electric water heater 12 by the UL Standard, its actual volume can be, has to 13 be within 90 percent of the rated volume. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 15 MR. STANONICK: Most of them are around 16 there. Okay, a gas water heater has to be within 95 

### 17 percent of the rated volume. Most of them are around 18 there. 19 MR. DOUGHERTY: They can hit it. 20 MR. STANONICK: So what you are basically 21 seeing there is the difference that, again, we chose 22 the formulas compared to rated. What you are really 2:3 seeing is that, the fact that a gas water heater, in 24 terms of its actual volume, it is closer to the rating 25 than the electric. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -*flC101 1 It is, that's just the way it works out. 2 And what we tried to show on thebottom there, is that 3 in both cases, we picked numbers that are 4 conservative, conservative ratios. But we believe 5 that these calculations should note that in terms of 6 actual volume versus the rated, there is a difference 7 between the electric and the gas. And we are just 8 picking that up. 9 DR. HILLER: Question for you, Frank. 10 MR. STANONICK: Yes. 11 DR. HILLER: Would it be

-- 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Say your name again. 13 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller. Would it be 14 appropriate in a rating scheme like this to have a 15 statement that this rating should not be used for 16 sizing purposes? 17 MR. STANONICK: I guess, Carl, I'm not 18 sure if it wouldmake anydifference if that sentence 19 was there or not. In fact, I mean, if we went with 20 okay. Let's say just say that this was implemented, 21 in fact, we knew this was the formula, all right. 22 Well, someonewho knew and had data could in fact take 23 that number and break it out into its component parts 24 andwithsome knowledgeprobably actually adjust it to 25 have more relevance to sizing in a particular effort. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433102 1 So, Iguess I'd say maybe it shouldn't be 2 used, what's the word, not arbitrarily, but shouldn't 3 be used without some additional knowledge or 4 information or something. 5 DR. HILLER: This equation gives you a 6 single number? 7 MR. STANONICK: Right. 8 DR. HILLER: The question is, can that 9 number be used in any way to size a water heater? 10 MR. STANONICK: I think it could be. Is 11 it going to be the best sizing in all cases, probably 12 not. But again, it is a question of what is, you 13 know, is there an ideal method for size? I don't 14 think there is. The test procedures, I guess if the 15 test procedures said that it wouldn't be,not intended 16 to be used for sizing, I don't care. 17 Imean, Iwould say that in fact, that is, 18 I would say that is consistent with where we all 19 started fromon the testprocedures. But Idon't know 20 that it is going to seriously curtail people from 21 trying to use.that. 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views, please. 23 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA. If it 24 isn't in this calculatedmethod or the current, or the 25 testing method, how do you tell people to size water 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433103 1 heaters? Are you going to use the method, well, the 2 plumbers know? One minute they know and the next 3 minute they don't know. You need some kind of 4 mechanism. 5 If there is no sizingmechanism, then how 6 can you tell people to size? 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Comment. 8 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 9 Electric Institute. You are saying these values were 10 conservative and it was GAMA that decided on the first 11 unit .8 V versus .75. 12 MR. STANONICK: It is our recommendation. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, but someone could 14 recommendyou make .9 for the electric and .8 for the 15 gas, if they wanted to. 16 MR. STANONICK: And thenthey've probably 17 deviated from the conservative,because clearlythe .9 18 would be more than the test supports. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I would just, you 20 know,because it just seems that,youknow, that first 21 number seems to be themain, you know, it is obviously 22 the main parameter there. And then since it is so 23 almost, you know, it is based, it is very subjective 24 around an objective

-- 25 MR. STANONICK: A 50 gallon gas water 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433104 

### 1 heater typically holds between 47 and a half and 48 2 gallons. A 50 gallonelectric water heater, typically 3 holds 45 gallons. That's the facts. Andwe are just 4 trying to reflect the physical reality. And if 5 anything,you know,we canprobably, well, Iwas going 6 to say, we did ten data points for each volume size. 7 We can do more, but Idon't think those ratios in the 8 real world are going to change much. 9 DR. HILLER: Can I interrupt here for a 10 second, Frank? 11 FACILITATORRABA: Carl, areyou speaking? 12 DR. HILLER: Yes, Carl Hiller. Your 13 proposal says you have a single element tank and a 14 number that is independent of basically any reading, 15 right? It is just a function of volume? 16 MR. STANONICK: Yeah. Okay, you picked 17 the 40 gallon? 18 DR. HILLER: Over a one hour time frame it 19 reheats. 20 MR. STANONICK: You are right. 21 DR. HILLER: A 50 gallon doesn't. 22 MR. STANONICK: A 30 gallon electric, a 23 single element, there is a good possibility it would 24 recover by the end of that hour. We admit that and 25 again, I came in saying that, you know, these are, can 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433105 1 use some refining. If, you know, I guess you could 2 say the single element formula only applies for 3 volumes, 32 gallons or higher or something. 4 And if it is a 30 gallon single element, 5 you could use that, the first formula. But the point 6 is, the point is, or are point is that the fact, 7 again, a garden variety standard design water heater, 8 this number is very predictable. And because it is, 9 and because of our opinion, all we are trying to do is 10 lump water heaters of equal capability together that 11 we thinkwill be appropriate formanufacturers to have 12 an option to just use the calculation. 13 Especially when the new test is now an 14 hour test andyeah it can be run at the end of the 24 15 hour test or whatever and it is an hour time and a 16 little more perhaps. But your opinion is that you 17 don't need to do it, so why do it. 18 FACILITATORRABA: Comments? In theback, 19 please. 20 MR. EARLEY: Jim Earley, Georgia Power, I 21 have aquestion for Frank. You said that your testing 22 that you are using right now is a modified version of 23 the '78, the earlier, the previous test for the first 24 hour rating? 25 MR. STANONICK: Right. 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433-I 106 1 MR. EARLEY: In that test that you are 2 doing, are you accounting for single and double 3 element electrics, or areyou using the test where you 4 just put both of them together. 5 MR. STANONICK: To tell you the truth, I 6 would have to see what the test procedure says. I 7 don't recall that. One of the modifications 8 obviously, the original test procedure we were using 9 160 degree mean tank temperature. Today we use 135 10 and a different inlet water temperature. 11 So those are some of the modifications. 12 But I would have to see what the test procedure says 13 about how you address single elements. I don't 14 recall. 15 MR. EARLEY: '78 said that you use the 16 bottom element, and the '95 said the top. 17 DR. HILLER: Actually, '78

-- 18 MR. DOUGHERTY: You want it from the time 19 that it turns on. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: State your name, 21 please. 22 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brain Dougherty, NIST. 23 You make a first draw, then you evaluate when that 24 thermostat cuts on, and then you find out the 25 difference between that time and the end of the hour. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433107 1 Then you make a calculation for how much water it 2 would have heated during that hour. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views? In the 4 back, please go ahead. 5 MR. BERNADOWSKI: Tim Bernadowski from 6 Virginia Power. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: There's a microphone 8 there if you would like, if you feel comfortable with 9 that. If not -- 10 MR. BERNADOWSKI: Can folks here me? I 11 don't feel comfortable getting next to electric 12 things. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR.BERNADOWSKI: What I'mhearing is some 15 agreement. Onebeing first hour rating is a lousyway 16 to size water heaters. Another thing that I am kind 17 of hearing here is that if the first hour rating was 18 originallyput there to, in order todo things so that 19 there can be some similar comparability, particularly 20 for the labeling system, that almost sounds like the 21 tail wagging the dog. But it doesn't sound like you 22 really need the number. 23 It sounds to me like all you really need 24 to do is break them into certain classifications and 25 those classifications have a certain criteria and 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 51108 

### 1 that's how you group them as far as the labeling. 2 That sounds to me like what everybody is saying here, 3 for thepurposes of DOE, that is the only reason that 4 first hour rating is here. 5 FACILITATOR RABA: Do we have more views 6 on the purpose of first hour rating? Good comments. 7 Dr. Hiller? 6 DR. HILLER: I think Ipointed out and I 9 suspected not too much disagreement in the room that 10 any singlepoint rating,regardlessofwhat time frame 11 or what procedure you get it out of is going to have 12 shortcomings. All single point ratings have sin. 13 MR. STANONICK: For sizing purposes. 14 DR.HILLER: Well, that's one of the sins. 15 What it gets used for, right. Let me finish my 16 statement. 17 MR. STANONICK: Okay, okay. 18 DR. HILLER: I would argue, especially 19 based on our data, that if you are going to use a 20 single number, the number with the least amount of 21 sins would be first draw. That would be the number 22 with the least amount of sins. It doesn't adequately 23 distinguishbetweentankswithdifferentheatingrates 24 and single element and dual element. But inmyview, 25 that has fewer problems associated with it than any 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433109 

### 1 othermethod, if you are going tohave a single point 2 rate. 3 Because clearly, most of your sizing is 4 driven by the first draw. 5 FACILITATOR RABA: We've got a tie here. 6 In the back first. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, Oregon 8 Energy Office again. I sort of have to agree with a 9 combinationof the sentiments thatarebeingpresented 10 here. Ireallydon't thinkwaterheaters are going to 11 get sized, in general, bythe first hour rating. They 12 are going to get sized by their capacity, because 13 that's what most people understand. 14 However, there is probably some need to 15 differentiate between one 50 gallon and another 50 16 gallon, especiallybetweena singleelement andadual 17 element tank. Imean, somebodymaywant to be able to 18 comparethose capabilities. So thereprobably is some 19 reason, along with the fact that there is a lot of 20 other institutions in this countrythat, at themoment 21 anyway, cite.the first hour rate as something that 22 they look at. 23 So Idon't think you can just toss it out 24 without giving a lot of notice to people that it is 25 leaving. Onthe otherhand, I think that Dr.Hiller's 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433110 

### 1 data here has sort of shown me a few things, that I 2 don't know whether he intended them to show that or 3 not. 4 It looks like, inmost of his data, what 5 really converges for comparing like tanks or tanks 6 that will meet the needs formost of the families out 7 there, is the onehour rating. Most of that stuff, if 8 you are going to pick number, the one hour rating in 9 my estimation isn't so bad. Dr. Hiller did provide 10 some insight as to howyou can fudge around with the 11 half hour mark and plus or minus and really change 12 things. 13 Thingskindofconvergeprettywellat the 14 one hour mark and as he pointed out, the only tank 15 that really failed to meet most families needs, was 16 the single element electric. Most of the rest of the 17 families in that study group, and our data by the way 18 in the northwest isn't as detailed, but it does 19 support his finding. 20 Assuminghisfindingis thatmost families 21 are served well by a 40 to 64 gallon tank, either 22 electric or gas andthat theplumbersmost of the time 23 do prettywell, given that they are sizing it for the 24 house rather than for the family that lives there. 25 So Ithink the first hourrating as ithas 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433111 

### 1 been recommended for upgrade is probably okay. I 2 agree with Frank Stanonick a lot. Iagree with a lot 3 of what he said. I don't think it is a bad test. I 4 don't think it is going to get heavily used, except 5 for comparing similar tanks that people who are just 6 looking forminorperformance differencesbetween one 7 50 gallon and another 50 gallon tank. Which is okay. 8 Ihaveheard plumbers saythat theydouse 9 that. Not to size the tank, but to compare things. 10 So let them use it. Plus there is the possibility 11 that there is some things that aren't quite normal. 12 That aren't exactly like the run of the mill tank that 13 Frank refers to. 14 These tanks need some way to at least be 15 comparablybenchmarked against everything else that's 16 out there. So I think we really need to hone in on 17 the fact that the test is there if wekind of need it. 18 Themodifications are not there. I don't object to a 19 calculational method, if it is conservative. 20 Ithink whathe is showinghere could save 21 some money for some manufacturers who domake awhole 22 host of run of the mill tanks. And again, if they 23 have a high performance tank, they can test it. I 24 don't see anyproblems with any of that. Irecommend 25 we adopt the modified procedure, provided everybody 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433112 1 agrees. 

### 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Adopt that what? 3 Please, what was your comment? 4 MR.STEPHENS: Themodifiedprocedurethat 5 GAMAhas suggested fairlyaccuratelythat reflectsthe 6 testing and the capability of the tanks that they get 7 in the first hour rating. Iwould endorse keeping the 8 first hour rating, Number one. And Number Two, some 9 of the modifications that were suggested most 10 recently, that have been tested by GAMA and shown to 11 leave the tanks fairly well equated when they are 12 equal areprobablywell adopted at thispoint. We can 13 talk, I'll have to, we will have to raise temperature 14 settings. 15 DR. HILLER: What do youmean be equated 16 and equal? 17 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I'm talking about 18 tanks that deliver approximately the same amount of 19 hot water as the first hour rating. If you take a 20 home with electric service and one with gas service, 21 the tank that the plumber would select for each. 22 The ones onyour charts that will meet 95 23 percent of the families needs. 24 FACILITATOR RABA: We'll get back toyou, 25 thank you. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433113 1 DR. HILLER: If you look at a one hour 2 time frame, here the greens are 50, the red is the 80, 3 let's say we just have, I don't know exactly where 4 that line is going to be. Let's say our rating really 5 was over here, so that the gas water heater was at a 6 higher rating than the 80 gallon electric. 7 If you are looking at first hour rating, 8 those would be the closest two. But in fact, you 9 didn't need either one of those and the rating that 10 the 50 gallon would have gottenwas certainly low. So 11 you would be comparing an 80 gallon electric to a 50 12 gallon gas, when in fact a 50 gallon electric is the 13 one you shouldhave compared,when it should have been 14 used for the application. Not the 80, the 80 was 15 oversized. 16 MR. STEPHENS: For whom? 17 DR. HILLER: For that customer. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I've already 19 maintained that it won't be sized for the customer, it 20 will sized for the house that the customer lives in. 21 DR. HILLER: Mypoint is, you are goingby 22 first hour ratings. And my point is a comparison of 23 first hour rating has nothing to do with that water 24 heater, how you pick it. 25 MR. STEPHENS: I think I said that 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433114 

### 1 already. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views, please. 3 Over here. 4 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer, again. I 5 mean, I kind of had mixed emotions. Around 10:30 I 6 kindof asked,whatwouldyourrecommendationbe. And 7 I still haven't heard an answer. I agree with the 8 gentleman fromOregon. We are dealing with first hour 9 recovery. It is not a bad number, it works. 10 A plumber is going to use it for sizing? 11 No, that's not the primary use of the first hour 12 recovery. First hour recovery is something that the 13 consumer can use. And basically, we owe it to the 14 consumer toprovide that first hour recovery, so they 15 can make a direct comparison. 16 Whether they need a 30, a 50, an 80 or a 17 120, is totally irrelevant. We are not dealing with 18 a water heater that you are putting in a house for 19 fourpeople. You are dealingwith a water heater for 20 of structure, that may have an 80 gallonhot tub that 21 thesepeople want touse every time theycomehome and 22 read the newspaper. Because it does become somewhat 23 stressful lately. 24 (Laughter.) 25 MR. KUSTERER: Now, are we sizing it 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 - Mu115 

### 1 because there are fourpeople in the house, or are we 2 sizing itbecause theyneed80 gallons withinanhour, 3 so theycan reduce their stress. Theproblem is this, 4 although you did an excellent job and you should be 5 commended, is skewed strictly for electric. Not that 6 Ihave anyproblemwith electric,but it doesnot show 7 the average for gas or other fossil fuels. 8 We owe tothegeneralpublic anumber,not 9 to be used in sizing, but should sometimes be taken 10 into considerationby the installer. And Iamgetting 11 away from the plumber. But we owe it to the general 12 public to give a first hour rating. How much they 13 expect from that water heater installed in the den of 14 inequity. In the twilight zone. 15 Becausebasically, nobodygoesdown there 16 exceptus dumbmechanics to fix them. But that'swhat 17 we owe. A 30 minute recovery,people are, but Ineed 18 80 gallons inanhour, I don't need25.2 gallons in 30 19 minutes. It's agood number. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: I have a comment over 21 here and one in the back too. 22 MR. VAGO: Otto Vago, State Industries. 23 To thisday, ahighpercentage of plumbers are sizing 24 the water heaterby the old recovery ratemethod. If 25 you tell them that, well, use the first hour rating. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433116 1 He says, yeah, okay, what is the recovery rate on 

### 2 that. In otherwords, they are not familiar with the 3 first hour rating term, even to this day. 4 After all theseyears, they go by the old 5 recovery rate method. And that's not only the 6 plumbers, but also some engineers that actually size 7 the water heater for the new construction. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: All right. And back 9 there, please. 10 MR. ABRAMS: Yes, DonAbrams, Abrams and 11 Associates. I am concerned that we are focusing in 12 too strongly on residential applications for 13 households of four. It seems to be where we are 14 focusing. I think we need to keep in mind that a 15 largenumber ofnewunits, even though theyare called 16 residential units, find application in commercial 17 buildings. 18 In fast food restaurants and office 19 buildings, where theybehave verydifferently. These 20 structures are typically closed onweekends and their 21 water usage is much more compact during the day, for 22 aninehourperiod,rather thanan 18hourperiod like 23 in a residence. 24 The other thing is there are a large 25 numberof single occupantanddual occupanthouseholds 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433117 1 in the country. And the demographics trend I think is 2 showing that that is becoming more prevalent. Those 3 households, that kind of household would certainly be 4 more accurately represented by recovery duration 5 period. 6 One andtwo occupanthouseholdsdon't have 7 a concern typicallyabout a longer timeperiod. Their 8 hot water usage, particularly single occupant 9 households is verycompactly centeredinto a shower or 10 a laundry load or adishwasher operation cycle. So we 11 are getting further away from the commercial 12 applications, and the small occupant, small household 13 residential application. 14 Keep inmind,we are dealingwith, Iwould 15 say at least major classes of users rather than just 16 residential four person households. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: A lot of good comments 18 this morning. I would like to get some closure and 19 move on. This is a very interesting topic for 20 everybody. We've gotten a lot of information that we 21 can certainly use from all sides. I appreciate your 22 comments and would like to at this time stick with the 23 agenda a little a closer. 24 Certainly this is a topic thatwe couldgo 25 on all day about. And well, if we don't really get a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433118 

### 1 conclusion today, we have a direction we can go in. 2 We've heard a lot of good things today, and we will 3 take this into consideration as the publicmulls over 4 all the facts, the data, and maybe read some more 5 later on in your written comments too. 6 So we would like to ask you if we could 7 either,well first of all, if youwould like to table 8 this for now. We can come back later on and discuss 9 other topics in the agenda. Continue our discussion, 10 would you like to eithermove to instantaneous water 11 heaters, which wouldbe the second topic, it couldbe 12 an instant discussion too. 13 Or, would you like to break earlier for 14 lunch and come back early after lunch. Move on or 15 take abreak? Has everybody beenheardon thismatter 16 that wants to be heard on the proper sizing, for the 17 test procedure, the first hour rating? Does anybody 18 else have a desire to say something there? Please, 19 before we take this interlude. 20 (Noresponse.) 21 FACILITATORRABA: Well,wouldyou like to 22 proceed then andgo on to instantaneous water heaters 23 or take abreak? Instantaneous? Press on, all right. 24 Remember,you saidan instant discussiontoo. Looking 25 at the agenda, some questions to think about. What 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433119 1 currently exists in the marketplace today? 2 Should test procedures be developed for 3 oil-fired units? Should an alternate method be used 4 for first hour rating? Should an alternate method be 5 used for the energy factor for units with a lower 6 heating rating? I will open discussion on that. Any 7 comments or views, any statements perhaps? 8 Instantaneous water heaters. 9 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Justaquickorientation. 10 FACILITATOR RABA: Name again, please? 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 12 Electric Institute. You asked about oil-fired units 13 for instantaneous. Are there any being built or 14 installed or you know, just out of curiosity, how, do 15 they have any market whatsoever, really? 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Good question. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Ipersonally don't know. 18 I would assume it is extremely small. 19 FACILITATORRABA: Does anybodyknow? Any 20 data or facts, please. 21 MR..STANONICK: FrankStanonickwithGAMA. 2:2 We are not aware of any oil-fired instantaneous, 23 residential oil-fired instantaneous water heaters on 24 the market. 25 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or commercial? 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433120 1 MR. STANONICK: I'm sure there might be 2 some commercial sizes, but not residential. 3 MR. KUSTERER: Not at this time. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Others? 5 DR. HILLER: Is the issue specifically 6 should we add oil-fired? Or is the issue a general 7 issue about instantaneous water heaters and their 8 ratings? 9 MR. DOUGHERTY: The first question is 10 just, Brian Dougherty,NIST, are there any oil-fired? 11 If there are, do we need to cover them? If there are 12 not, we will just eliminate that section and move on 13 to the other general topics. 14 MR. MILLS: James Mills from the Federal 15 Trade Commission. We don't receive any data for oil16 fired instantaneous water heaters to add to the mix. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Can we move on to the 18 next question then? Thankyouvery much. Should test 19 procedures be developed for single point of use type 20 electric instantaneous waterheaters? Thesequestions 21 are also in your Federal Register Notice. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Did you say electric or 23 oil? 24 MR. KUSTERER: Electric. 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Well, we could still 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433121 

### 1 stick with oil if you would like? 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, Iam just looking at 3 the agenda, sorry about that. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Yeah, sure, that's 5 fine. The question, should test procedures be 6 developed for single point of use type electric 7 instantaneous water heaters? 8 MR.KUSTERER: Youhaveagentlemanbehind 9 you. 10 DR. HILLER: I have a general comment 11 about instantaneous water heaters and how to rate 12 them. Hopefully, there won't be too much dissent in 13 the room if I make the statement that instantaneous 14 water heaters basically cannot do the same job as 15 tank-type water heaters. Especially under the 16 tendency to have clustered, short-term high draws. 17 Imeanyou canmakean instantaneouswater 18 heater that will serve the same kind of loads that a 19 tank-type waterheater is normally intended to serve, 20 but it would have a very high heat input rate if you 2:1 did that. And to my knowledge, the instantaneous 2:2 water heaters that are on the market, in the sizes 23 thatwouldbe coveredbythese rules, typicallydo not 24 have high enough heating rates to meet the kinds of 25 draws that would be demanded of them if they were 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433122 

### 1 trying to serve whole house loads. 2 And therefore, ifyou try and give them a 3 rating that looks something like a rating that you 4 would give a tank-type water heater, you would do a 5 tremendous disservice to the general public, because 6 they won't be able to know the difference. For 7 example, if you did a one hour rating, and an issue 8 that's particularly, I come up against all the time. 9 If you look at what's available in 10 electric instantaneous water heaters, a typical nine 11 kilowatt input rate. Themaximum flow rate that that 12 device can serve, is something on the order of one to 13 one and half gallons a minute depending on your 14 temperature rise assumptions. Maybe even less than 15 that. 16 That is not adequate for many household 17 uses, or uses in general. And yet, if you gave it a 18 one hour rating, youwould get a 60 gallon rating, if 19 it couldmeet that draw at one gallonper minute. And 20 if you compared that to a tank-type water heater that 21 had a similar 60 gallon rating, ifyou didn't knowany 22 better, you would know which one to pick. 23 But by giving them a rating, that looks 24 like it is the same, like aonehour rating, youmight 25 have people out there picking instantaneous water 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433123 1 heaters thinking they are going to be the equivalent 2 to the tank-type water heaters, when in fact they are 3 not. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Question or comment in 5 the back, please? 6 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. Is 7 your definition of instantaneous water heater direct 8 power or indirect? 9 DR. HILLER: Anything that does not have 10 a storage volume within the definition of DOE's one 11 gallon or two gallon or whatever it is. 12 MR. DUCH: There is a major difference 13 between direct fired and a heat exchanger type. 14 MR. STANONICK: They're not covered by 15 this test procedure right now. These are all direct 16 fired types. 17 MR. DUCH: So you are talkingabout direct 18 fired instantaneous. 19 MR. MCCABE: Correct. 20 DR. HILLER: The argument really applies 21 regardless of as long as you don't have any storage 22 volume to rely on, you look at the power ratings that 23 are under the standard, there aren't very many high 24 rated units. 25 MR.DUCH: No, if you look at the indirect 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433124 1 fired, what you have said is not true. Because there 2 is one on the market recently introduced in the United 3 States that does as good a job if not better, in the 4 first hour. It is instantaneous as a storage type 5 unit. 6 DR.HILLER: What's themaximumgallonper 7 minute that that can serve? 8 MR. DUCH: Up to 30 or 45 minutes. 9 DR. HILLER: So that is a very high heat 10 input. 11 MR. DUCH: But it uses different 12 technology and the first hour it is totally comparable 13 to the first hour of direct, of storage-type. 14 DR. HILLER: My whole point, what I am 15 leadingup to, is if we have ratings for instantaneous 16 water heaters, I strongly argue that we do them on a 17 gallon per minute rating, rather than a gallon per 18 hour rating. 19 FACILITATOR RABA: Comment from NIST. 20 MR.DOUGHERTY: BrianDougherty fromNIST. 21 In fact, Carl, that was a comment that was 22 consistently received. And so now the question 23 becomes, if people do not object to abandoning first 24 hour rating for instantaneous, and converting to a 25 gallons per time valve, hour, minute value, then the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433125 1 issue becomes, what name do you give that descriptor 2 and then what temperature-wise do you do the rating. 3 The issue that I saw thus far is whether 4 or not to use a 77 temperature rise, which is more 5 consistent with storage, or use something that is a 50 6 degree temperature rise, which maybe more consistent 7 with how they are applied. So I saw those as the two 8 key issues. Iguess Iwould like to see if we can get 9 over the first hurdle, in that it would be okay with 10 people to abandon first hour rating for instantaneous 11 water heaters. 12 And once over that hurdle, the question 13 becomes, now do we go to the gallon per time rating 14 descriptor, give it a name and decide on the 15 temperature rise at which you evaluate that 16 descriptor. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: All right. 18 MR. EARLEY: Jim Earley of Georgia Power. 19 As a power company representative, we strongly 20 discourage people using instantaneous in replacing a 21 whole house storage-type water heater. I don't think 22 it is good for the customer, and every customer on our 23 line that puts in a water heater that comes on 24 instantaneously, it is going to drive us crazy. 25 And in regards to Brian question. The 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433126 1 first part of that is I think we need to definitely 

### 2 have it in gallons per minute and you can call it 3 just a recovery rating, if you want. And show it as 4 gallons perminute. And I suggest that 50, because if 5 someone wants to convert that to different numbers, 6 you can divide it by 50 and manipulate the number. 7 Where if you use 77, then you've got to 8 sit down with a calculator. 9 FACILITATORRABA: The 77 is noted inyour 10 Federal Register Notice. Any other comments orviews 11 on that? -Goodpoint. In the back. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, Oregon 13 Energy Office again. From our perspective, we would 14 recommend using a gallons per minute rating and 15 perhaps rate it at two different temperatures to get 16 around some of the controversies. 17 Inmost of our applications, 50 degrees is 13 not sufficient to overcome the inletwater temperature 19 most of the year and deliver what most people would 20 consider truly hot water. On the other hand, 77 21 degrees tends to be more than is really needed to do 22 that job. 23 So, I would suggest trying to find a 24 couple of numbers, or if we are going to pick one 25 number, that it be related to something that the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433127 

### 1 manufacturers already do or can agree on that they 2 will do in the future. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Any thoughts, any 4 numbers? Over here. 5 DR. HILLER: It just so happens, if you 6 look at the minimum enteringwater temperatures, like 7 up inAlaska, for example. Thirty-two degrees is the 8 kindofminimumnumberyouare going to see. Anything 9 below that, you are going toget slush. Andyou don't 10 really see that very often, but it is kind of a 11 minimum theoretical numberyou would see. 12 It just so happens, a 77 degree rise from 13 32, is what, 107, 108, something like that. Which is 14 in theminimum usable delivery temperature range. So 15 one couldargue that a 50 degree risemight be kindof 16 representative of an average rise, and also makes the 17 math easier. 18 And a 77 degree rise, represents kind of 19 aworse case scenarioandhappens to coincide withthe 20 tank-type. So if you have two ratings, that would 21 work out kind of conveniently. 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Other thoughts? 23 MR.STANONICK: FrankStanonickwithGAMA. 24 First of all, we've alsobeen on record as supporting 25 the idea that for instantaneous yougo to agallonper 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 _a128 1 minute. I just want to clarify, are we still talking 2 specifically about single point of use, or are we 3 mixing up point of

-- 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: Instantaneous, it is all 5 together. 6 MR. STANONICK: All right. Well, we 7 certainly, we've got an understanding, we certainly 8 think that you at least need to measure it at the 77 9 degree rise, because now you are including products 10 that at least, in some applications, will be presented 11 as equivalent to serving the same need that your 12 storage water heater would have served. 13 And so, I certainlywould support that at 14 least it gets measured at 77. 15 FACILITATORRABA: Otherthoughts,please. 16 Do you all agree with that? Do you disagree with it? 17 In the back please. 18 MR. BERNADOWSKI: Tim Bernadowski, 19 Virginia Power. We support the gallon per minute 20 rating. We think that is much more appropriate for 21. that type of equipment. I think the temperature rise, 22 what you want to do is have some consistency across 23 the different pieces of water heating equipment. 24 And I think somewhere else inyour agenda, 25 you have the discussion of, if you have storage 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433129 

### 1 equipment, what temperature do you use? What's that 2 temperature? I think whatever temperature rise you 3 use for instantaneous should be consistent with 4 whatever temperature you decide is appropriate on the 5 storage. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. Others, 7 please? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: SteveRosenstock, Edison 9 Electric. Another factor topossibly, is the relative 10 use of the instantaneous waterheaters in residential 11 versus commercial applications.) It is possibly 12 because also, in commercial application it might be 13 more likely if water temperature, especially in the 14 urban areas, inlets are going to be higher to being 15 with regardless. 16 And if most of the instantaneous water 17 heaterswill be used in the commercial and industrial 18 applications, then obviously that is going to effect 19 what the actual temperature rise is going to be. I 20 would tend to actually go more towards a 50 degree 21 fahrenheit temperature rise. 22 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA. Just a 23 clarification. You are only talking residential 24 applications, right, not commercial or industrial? 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Anybody want to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433130 

### 1 respond? 2 MR. BERRINGER: Bryan Berringer, it is 3 just residential. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, it is just 5 residential, okay. 6 MR. DOUGHERTY: One is covered by the 7 definition in the test procedure. So that gets back 8 toDonAbrams comment that although itmaybe intended 9 for residential, it may end up in a commercial 10 application. 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Instantaneous water 12 heaters, temperature rise, flow rate, other comments 13 or views on this particular issue? 14 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller from EPRI. Let 15 me just summarizewhat I think Iheard everybody say. 16 Ithink there isgeneral agreement about agallonsper 17 minute rating. There is not disagreement with a 77 18 degree rise, but maybe having two ratings, 50 and 77 19 is a little more practical. 20 Seventy-seven has a benefit of being 21 comparable to the tank-type water heater test. And 22 representing a maximum rise condition in the field. 23 And 50 has the advantage of being kind of an average 24 rise condition and easymath. So if we had just two 25 numbers, it would kind of solve both concerns. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433131 1 FACILITATOR RABA: I like easy math. Go 2 ahead. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Charles Stephens, from 4 Oregon Energy Office. Ihave to ask a question. I am 5 not really familiar with what, with everything that's 6 out there. Are there equipment that can't meet a 77 7 degree rise at their minimum flow rate? 8 MR.DOUGHERTY: Good question. How lowdo 9 electric go? 10 DR. HILLER: Well, there is some minimum 11 flow rate that they will turn on. I think the way 12 most of them work is that there is a flow switch and 13 they activate on flow, regardless of flow rate. But 14 there is a thermostat to turn them off if the outlet 15 gets above a certain temperature. And it is that 16 turnoff temperature thatwouldgovern theminimum flow 17 rate. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Right, right, if it 19 overheats, it would shut off. 20 DR. HILLER: But that would be way above 21 the 77 degree rise. 22 MR. STEPHENS: I don't know

-- 23 DR. HILLER: That's like a 150 or 160 24 safety net. 25 MR. STEPHENS: Yeah, I was suggesting I 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202).234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433132 1 guess that if there is such a product, that you might 2 have to put a clause in the rating literature to say 3 77 degrees orwhatever themaximum temperature is that 4 it can reach at its minimum flow rate. And that it 5 would have to specify what that is, what its maximum 6 temperature would be. 7 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer, with Bock 8 again. I have a little bit of a problem with that 50 9 degree rise. It, you know, under, I have well water 10 obviously,beingapoordumb farmer fromPennsylvania. 11 And my well water comes in at about 40 degrees, 12 because I am down 300 and some odd feet. 13 Now at a 50 degree rise, I amnot going to 14 get a very hot shower. And I don't suspect a lot of 15 other people will either. I don't think that 50 16 degree rise is such a hot number. I like the 77. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Anybody else from 18 Pennsylvania? 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, again. 21 I realize that there are a lot of places in the 22 country where, you know, your average inlet 23 temperature is 45 to 50 degrees. We are at 54, 24 typically. But that's not the case in places like 25 Florida, Alabama,Mississippi, Texas. And there is a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433133 1 substantial portion of the country that live down 2 there. 3 And Iam notaverse toaccommodating those 4 people, if it is an easy thing to do. And I think 5 this test is probably an easy thing to accomplish, to 6 get both numbers. I thinkwe are going to seemore of 7 this as we look at standards. This is just one 8 instance where not every place in the country is the 9 same and some people will make use of one number and 10 some people will make use of another. 11 But if it is cheap and easy to give them 12 both, why not? 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Anybody else. 14 MR. KUSTERER: Well, how do we know where 15 the product is going to be sold? 16 MR. STEPHENS: Yourplumberwill tellyou. 17 (Laughter.) 18 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. 19 MR. DUCH: Generally, you are going to 20 assume that the water in the northeast is 50 degrees 21 and a 50 degree rise will give you 100. That's 22 unacceptable, it is simple as that. 23 DR. HILLER: That's not the point. The 24 point is that it makes the math easy. We are not 25 implying that a 50 degree rise is generally 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433134 

### 1 acceptable. 2 MR. DUCH: If we are doing something for 3 the consumer,andhe doesn't gethotwaterbecause the 4 math is easier, it is not reality. Some of the 5 country is 60 and 50, something is very wrong. We 6 should get another government funded reading program 7 in that school. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. VAGO: Otto Vago, State Industries. 10 We do support the gallon per minute for 77 degree 11 rise, only. The second comment is what the gentleman 12 proposed that the, whatever the temperature 13 differential going to be at aminimum flowrate, that 14 would confuse the issue I think considerably. 15 Ibelieve, if I understood the gentleman 16 saying that from the minimum flow rate, whatever that 17 temperature differential will be, I think that would 18 be very confusing. 19 MR. STANONICK: If they coulddo 77. 20 MR. VAGO: If they could do 77 in the 21 first place. Thankyou. 22 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone,AGA. I guess 2:3 I had a question for FTC. Once this does get in 24 place, this coverage is extended,what would be your 25 options in terms of requiring labeling on this 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433--. 135 1 product? Is it a covered product that would require 2 labeling? 3 MR. MILLS: This is the electric? 4 MR. RANFONE: The electric instantaneous. 5 MR. MILLS: It would

-- 6 FACILITATOR RABA: James Mills, FTC. 7 MR. MILLS: James Mills, FTC. If it were 8 a product that was covered by the Department of 9 Energy's test procedure, it wouldbe a newproduct and 10 we would examine it on the public record with input 11 from thepublic, whether it shouldbe labeled. And if 12 so, how it should be and what kind of a descriptor we 13 want to use to describe the energyuse andhow to size 14: it. Whether first hour rating or gallons per minute 15 would be appropriate. 16 Similarly, if we were, the DOE test 17 procedure is modified so that the rating becomes 18 gallons per minute for these products, we would have 19 to look at our rule in a rule making to determine 20 whether we should change that for labeling purposes 21 and for purposes of our ranges of comparability. 22 MR. RANFONE: Okay, but this issue about 23 the temperature, Jim Ranfone, AGA,whether it is 50 or 24 77 is going to have modifications on where you are 25 using this product. And that's the point I want to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433136 

### 1 get to. 2 MR. MILLS: Our labels are really driven 3 by the DOE test procedures, so that would be settled 4 in thisproceeding. Andwe wouldmove on from there. 5 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 7 My mother is from Scranton, Pennsylvania, I hope 8 that's okaywith you. 9 MR. KUSTERER: No, that's fine, they just 10 have high water pressure over there, that's all. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, that's why she 12 moved out. 13 (Laughter.) 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In terms of the 15 temperature rise, Ithink it isvery important tohave 16 that 50 degrees, because like the gentleman from 17 Oregon said, there are a lot ofplaces likeMiami and 18 Texas where the inlet temperature can be higher than 19 40 degrees for a goodportion of the year, if not all 20 of the year. 21 And especially, if you are looking at the 22 energy usage patterns, to be base something, it is 23 better if you want a range, do a low range, because 24 again that is going to be real conditions if people 25 are doing energy studies or analysis in those 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)2344433-a 137 1 conditions, where people only need a 50 degree rise. 2 I mean, do a simulation or saving 3 calculation, if they are not needing the 77 degree 4 delta. Is you know, it will overestimate all the 5 energyusage and all the other annual costs, etcetera, 6 associated with that product. 7 MR.KUSTERER: George Kusterer again. Are 8 we assuming that because Florida is south and it is 9 relatively hot down there at times, that their water 10 temperature is 60 or 70 degrees inlet from the street? 11 DR.HILLER: We have lots ofdata on that. 12 MR. STEPHENS: We have lots of data on 13 that, we don't have to assume. 14 MR. HEISS: Harold Heiss, American 15 Electric Power. I am a hydrogeologist. And the mean 16 average ground water temperatures reflect the mean 17 annual air temperatures. You'll find water 18 temperatures up in the Dakotas from the 40's to down 19 in Miami and Brownsville, Texas to be 75 to 80 20 degrees. 21 So the, it does change and it has been 22 mapped and it does exist. And Miami's, Ibelieve, is 23 about is about 72 degrees. 24 MR. DUCH: What's the average? 25 MR. KUSTERER: Well, what do they need 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433138 1 water heaters for? 2 MR. HEISS: The average for the states. 3 (Laughter.) 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Holdon, I can't here, 5 one at a time. Go ahead. 6 MR. DUCH: What is the average for the, 7 what is the 50th percentile? 8 MR. HEISS: I would imagine the 50th 9 percentile would be somewhere in the mid 50's. 10 MR. DUCH: The mid 50's plus 50, makes it 11 105. Which is the minimum acceptable. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Interesting point, 13 thank you very much. Any comments, sir. 14 MR. PAUL: No, Iwas just going to say the 15 same thing he just said. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Just trying to 17 reinforce the comment. 18 MR. HEISS: Yeah, I am remembering Miami 19 temperatures as being closer to 78 or 79. That's a 20 function of the depth of ground water. 21 MR. STANONICK: Frank StanonickwithGAMA. 22 There is an assumption that we've all bought into 23 here, whetherwe recognize it or not. And we are all 24 talking about that we just want to get this water to 25 110. And that these electric instantaneous water 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433139 1 heaters are only going to be used in cases where you 2 are supplying hot water for people, as opposed to hot 3 water for the house. 4 Well, the hot water for the house, needs 5 water for the clothes washer, it needs water for the 6 dishwasher, and other uses where the people never 7 touch the water, if you will. And if you use an 8 instantaneous water heater to supply my dish washer. 9 Let's say I had an old dish washer that didn't have 10 its own preheater or something. 11 And for whatever reason I wanted to have 12 a water heater supplied directly to the dish washer, 13 they are not going to be interested in 110 water. 14 They are going to want 140 degree water or there 15 abouts. In fact, that would be a pretty reasonable 16 applicationperhaps. And in that case, 50 degree rise 17 and the water is 70 or 80, I don't care, it ain't 16 gonna do it. 19 And so I think as long we, well, first of 20 all we are talking about all types of electric 21 instantaneous and I think everyone should recognize, 22 up to this point, we were just talking about those 23 applications where somebody is in the water. In the 24 shower, bathtub, hand washing or whatever. 25 But you can't ignore the other 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433140 

### 1 applicationswhere infactyouare deliveringwater to 2 amachine and in fact the desiremaybe tohave hotter 3 water for that machine. And when you get to those 4 situations, a 50 degree rise has, Idon't think ithas 5 any value. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Charlie. 7 MR.STEPHENS: Ihate to keep standingup. 8 Charlie Stephens, Oregon. I don't want to go into 9 this. I live perfectly well, and without any 10 amenities suffering, with a 50 or 55 degree 11 temperature rise, from a system exactly like the one 12 we are talking about for a couple of years in 13 Colorado. 14 AndColoradois kindof,youknow,between 15 Florida andNorthDakota. So,youknow, itwasn't the 16 coldest and itwasn't thewarmest, but Ididverywell 17 on that, and Ididn't suffer forhaving had it. But 18 I think thatwe are all losing sight of the fact here 19 that we are trying to provide people information. 20 And the fact is, that if I seeanumber of 21 flow rate at 50 degree temperature rise and I see a 22 flow rate at 77, I am going to be able, I am an 23 engineer, I mean I see these things this way. I am 24 going to be able to try to figure out what my maximum 25 flow rate requirements are. 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433141 

### 1 And these things are set for temperature 2 anyway. Andyou know, if the flow exceeds what it is 3 rated for at that temperature, well thewater is going 4 to cool off. Everybody recognizes that.. 5 But let's not presume tobe decidingwhat 6 is adequate for consumers. I think most consumers 7 will, they'll hear it out, or if it is inadequate, 8 they will fix the situation. Hopefully, some 9 intelligent people will expect these things. 10 I think what we are trying to do here is 11 provide information for the people who are going to 12 make the decision. And Ithink a twopoint scale that 13 shows people what the range of operating conditions 14 that this thing could actually provide, provided they 15 are installed right, is all we reallyneed here. 16 I don't think it matters whether it is 17 adequate for this group of consumers or that group. 18 Theywillbe sold,hopefully,where theyare adequate. 19 FACILITATORRABA: Thegentlemanwith A.O. 20 Smith. 21 MR. HAAG: Wilbur Haag, with A.O. Smith. 22 I would be in favor of a single GPM 77 degree 23 temperature rise, based on comparable ratings. I can 24 envision the manufacturers of these devices having a 25 whole host of GPM's, 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100 degrees 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202) 234-4433142 1 rise in their literature. Suchwill suffice. Idon't 2 see any reason to complicate it with two. I think 77 3 degrees would be adequate. 4 MR. MILLS: James Mills, FTC. If we were 5 to label these products it would be simpler for 6 consumers to have a single number for comparative 7 purposes. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: George, then Steve. 9 MR.KUSTERER: One final comment. Iwould 10 like togo on record in supportingWilbur Haag fromA. 11 O. Smith with his recommendation with a single digit 12 number, using the gallon flow rate. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. Steve. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In terms of the labeling 15 issue, I just know on many, most appliances, water 16 heaters, air conditioners, furnaces, that the yellow 17 label, the FTC label that everyone sees there is 18 always a variety of information of them. 19 For example, with water heaters they show 20 various rates of electricity from I'll say four cents 21 per kilowatt hour, up to 14 cents per kilowatt hour. 22 MR. STANONICK: Not on the water heater 23 label. 24 MR. KUSTERER: That's the dish washer 25 label. 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433143 1 MR. MILLS: James Mills, FTC. Before you 2 go any further, we've changed or labels. They don't 3 have those cost grids on them any more, that you are 4 addressing. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They don't? 6 MR. MILLS: Because we've found that they 7 were a little too confusing for people. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. Stan. 9 MR. LIU: The energy factor is also 10 determinedon 175 degree temperature. So ifyou go 50 1L degree rise, then you have to run another test to 12 recertify and the manufacturer might consider that an 13 added burden. 14 FACILITATOR RABA: Other thoughts and 15 views about the instantaneous questions? 16 (Noresponse.) 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Well, indeed we 18 gathered a lot of information so far this morning on 19 both our first hour rating and instantaneous water 20 heaters. Keep some of these in mind, we will come 21 back after lunch and if we'd like to pick some this 22 up, we can table it and go to it later on. 23 I would like to invite a lunch break at 24 this time. If there is nobody else that wants to talk 25 at this time, we can do that. Iwould recommend that, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433144 well, what would you like to do, just take one hour? Please come back at 1:00. We will pick up with our next topic on the storage-type water heaters less than 20 gallons. If you haven't already registered,please do so. (Whereupon,the foregoing matter went off the record at 12:13 p.m. for a lunch recess.)



## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

(145 1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 2 (1:10 p.m.) 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Thankyouverymuch for 4 a very lively discussion this morning. Some good 5 information has beengathered certainly. And we look 6 forward to -- the easy stuff we've covered; right? 7 We'll get to the hard stuff this afternoon. 8 However, we would commend to your 9 attentiona statement ofControl Energycorporation

-- 10 it was in your packet of information -- regarding 11 gas-fired water heaters. 12 For the record, we just would like you to 13 take a look at that and review those comments as well. 14 They are part of the record. You'll review these as 15 we go along. If there are any comments on these, we 16 can hold them for later on or we can discuss them now 17 if you'd like. 18 Also, a reminder that we have in your 19 packets a summary of those issues on Page 8 of the DOE 20 water heater workshop summary of issues and comments 2:L prepared byBryan dated February 12th, today, just to 22 keep us on track with some of these issues, some good 23 summaries there. 24 George? 25 MR. KUSTERER: Before we go on, -- and I 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433146 

### 1 don't want to really belabor this -- we seem to have 2 skippedover an issue regarding: ShouldDOE adopt the 3 alternate test methodproposed by Carl Hiller? 4 This is George from Bock Water Heaters. 5 Itwouldbemyrecommendationthatbecause 6 the informationprovidedbyCarlHillerwith regardto 7 test procedures dated today is somewhat not 8 conclusive, itwouldbe Bock'srecommendationthat DOE 9 not acceptCarlHiller's proposedtestprocedure as it 10 is written. 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Is there another view 12 on that, please? 13 (Noresponse.) 14 FACILITATORRABA: Okay. We'llnote that. 15 Certainly we'd like to gather more data as well. 16 Perhaps ifothermanufacturers and organizationshave 17 additionaldata togather sowe can evaluate, itwould 18 beveryhelpful, too. And Iappreciateyour comments. 19 One more thing, please. Thank you. I 20 note, too, as ahousekeepingmatter that it's kind of 21 hard, even for me, to hear in the back, not because 2:2 your voices aren't loud enough, but we've got the 23 soundproof onthe wallback there. Sowewould invite 24 you to either speak up a little bit louder with your 25 name orwe provide at no extra charge thismicrophone 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433147 

### 1 in full view of everybody. Behind the pillar, you 2 couldn'tbe seen. Nowyou can be seen andheard both. 3 So whatever is comfortable, please. 4 Go ahead. 5 MR. DUCH: Further on the point that

-- 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Your name again, sir? 7 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 9 MR. DUCH: Just further on the point that 10 was mentioned by Bock's working person, the tests, 11 should theybedone onthebasisof anotherdozen test 12 familiesorwaterheatersare selectedon thebasis of 13 what is in the house? 14 FACILITATOR RABA: Is that aquestion for 15 the group? 16 MR. DUCH: Yes because in my view I 17 suppose they did them for all of them. The water 18 heater is selected, what demand is in the house, not 19 howmanypeople are in the housenowbecause the house 20 maybe sold in five years and thewateruse maygo up 21 tremendously. So the waterheaters arebasedand put 22 in, what is in the house. That's realistic. 2:3 FACILITATOR RABA: Can anybody respond, 24 please? Can you give any opinions or what are your 25 views on that? Go ahead. Your name again, sir? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433148 1 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Yes. Andy Lowenstein, 2 AIL Research. 3 The issue ofwhetherpeople are installing 4 water heaters based on a specific family or whether 5 they're sizing it for the house is a little bit of a 6 red herring issue. 7 I think the data that were shown this 8 morning by Carl, though he was using specific 9 families, could have been generalized to a generic 10 family that represented your 95th percentile house 11 family that was likely to move into any particular 12 house. 13 I think what the procedure that was shown 14 this morning tried to focus on was more the ambiguity 15 in the current way of doing things; that is, the 16 possibility that youmayhave awater heater if it has 17 a high one-hour rating, even higher than an 18 alternative water heater it's beingcompared to. Yet, 19 it may reach its limit at early water draws or under 20 a particular set of circumstances. 21 Certainly the methodology presented this 22 morningwas in no sense meant to be definitive or was 23 meant to be aproposed ratingprocedure that shouldbe 24 followed. I think it was more intended to show that 25 there are problems in the current way of doing it and 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433149 1 that the one-hour rating in some sense is a 2 disservice, can actually mislead people into putting 3 the wrong water heater into the house. And in that 4 sense, maybe no information is better than providing 5 the one-hour rating in particular. 6 And Iwouldask the question of thepeople 7 who are sort of supporting the one-hour rating: Why 8 the one-hour? I think it's a question that certainly 9 has been raised over the years when this topic gets 10 discussed. What is magical about the one-hour rating? 11 Again,Ithinkthismorning'spresentation 12 by Carl points out that you can come to completely 13 different conclusions by playing with that number. 14 And, again, the one-hour rating, again, in some sense 15 provides maybemisleading information or a false sense 16 of security, "I have this number that I canhold onto. 17 Now let's start making comparisons" when that number 18 really isn't anchored into anything in reality, 19 anything significant. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: Does anybody have any 21 facts in the background of that or -- go ahead. 22 MR. DUCH: It was mentioned before in the 23 test data presented by Dr. Hiller this morning. And 24 that was supported by the gentleman fromArgonne. If 25 you look at the demand for one month at one hour, any 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433-'l 150 

### 1 waterheater heatingthat demandwouldbegood for the 2 house. Water heaters meeting lower demands may not 3 satisfy that one-month, one-hour demand. That's one 4 hour, shown by the data. 5 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Can Iaddress that? 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead, please. 7 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Yes. Andy Lowenstein 8 again, AIL Research. 9 I think if you really look at the data 10 that waspresentedthis morning,you come to the exact 11 opposite conclusion, which is that there are very 12 definitecaseswhere theone-hour ratingwasmuchmore 13 than adequate for the house. 14 But if you start looking down in the 15 30-minute timeperiod, that samewaterheater that had 16 amore than adequate one-hour rating would lead to an 17 unacceptable number of run-outs for that particular 18 home, the exact opposite conclusion than what the 19 person behind me said. 20 MR.DUCH: Iguess statistically you can 21 look at a set of numbers and get ten different 22 conclusions. 23 FACILITATOR RABA: Hold on. Thank you. 24 Charlie? 25 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433151 

### 1 I don't recall those data where I think 2 you all agreed that the gas water heater had some 3 instances at the earlier time frame, the 30-45-minute 4 period, that appeared to be what I think we also all 5 agreed that a 45,000-BP-per-hour water heater is 6 probably more typical of what's out there than what 7 was in that test and in the data that Carl showed. 8 Icame to the conclusion thatmost of the 9 time a 50-gallon gas water heater or a 52-gallon 10 electric waterheaterwasmore thanadequate to serve 11 the family most of the time and that they might have 12 been oversized to some extent. But Idon't see there 13 being a bigpenalty from that. 14 And I don't have any evidence that the 15 description of waterheaters for houses right now led 16 into misapplication based on what we know today. 17 MR. KUSTERER: George Kusterer, Bock. 18 And, again, the report that we saw this 19 morning gaveus a lot of time frames andgave us a lot 20 of gallons, but nowhere did I see temperatures. And 21 I think this would have a tremendous impact on that 22 study as well as the gas unit that was used. 23 Is it typical? Idoubt if itwas typical. 24 And I'm seriously concerned with the report that an 25 electric heater. Althoughthey areverygood and they 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433152 1 are an extremely important item to the consumer, I 2 just -- and I don't doubt their research, but I just 3 can't believe that an electric water heater is far 4 superior to an alternate fuel. 5 So, therefore, I stand and state publicly 6 for the record that we at Bock oppose DOE accepting 7 this proposal. 8 FACILITATORRABA: Otherthoughts,please, 9 and views? 10 DR. HILLER: Can I respond to that? 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Yes, of course. Go 12 ahead. 13 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller from EPRI. 14 I apologize if you came away with the 15 impression that I was trying to show that 50-gallon 16 electric was better than 50-gallon gas. That was not 17 my intent. 18 The primary thing Iwas trying to achieve 19 was showing that a first-hour rating number is -- the 20 one-hour time frame is way beyond the time frame of 21 interest forwhetheror not it's adequate to serve the 22 load. 23 The gentleman back in the back here from 24 Argonne just said that he thinks the data shows that 25 50-gallon gas and 50-gallon dual and electric are 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433153 1 pretty comparable. That's probably generally a true 2 statement, but if you look at the first-hour ratings 3 that those two tanks have, they're vastly different. 4 Therein lies the problem with the 5 single-number rating out anywhere near one hour. 6 They're both adequate to serve the load, but one has 7 a much higher rating than the other. So what does the 8 rating mean? 9 MR. KUSTERER: Again I ask my question 10 which I asked earlier this morning: What do you 11 propose? 12 DR. HILLER: My'proposal if you're going 13 to have a single rating number is first draw. 14 MR. KUSTERER: It won't work. 15 DR. HILLER: That is the least of all 16. evils. 17 MR. KUSTERER: It won't work. 18 FACILITATOR RABA: We probably need some 19 more data on this, too. Certainly it's a very 20 interesting subject. And there may be more 21 examination needed, too. So I would invite anyone 22 with some thoughts, even after today's workshop, to 23 get back to the Department with those, maybe written 24 comments. 25 Data is most helpful. Wewouldappreciate 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433154 

### 1 receiving those, too. I sense we may not come to a 2 conclusion on this today but indeed would certainly 3 entertain other views as we go along. 4 There was a hand in the back there. 5 MR. MILLER: Rick Miller, Rheem 6 Manufacturing. 7 Speaking as a marketing person, which 8 probably tomostpeople here is the scumof the earth, 9 the idea of a real world environment, that being 10 plumbers, installers, peoplewe sell ourproducts to, 11 with regards to a first-hour rating, from my 12 experience, it's a number that is publishedbyus and 13 the other manufacturers. But I think in the real 14 world, that being a consumer, it's a number that is 15 very seldom used. 16 Ifyou think that there are 90 million or 17 so odd water heaters installed today, every one of 18 them started as a new construction; that is, some 19 plumber deciding, "Whatwater heater am Igoing toput 20 in this home?" 2:1 Andwhenhe looksat that, he's lookingat 22 the size of the home andwhat does it cost and what is 23 itgoing todo. And if it's a 1,500-square-foothome, 24 he'sprobably going to put in this sizewater heater. 25 If it's a 2,000-square-foot home, he may put in a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433-J 155 1 little bit larger water heater. And if it's a 2 3,000-square-foot home with a whirlpool tub, he's 3 going to put in a larger water heater. 4 When that water heater fails, that 5 consumer is going to decide, "What do I replace it 6 with?" In 99 percent of the cases, they're going to 7 replace it with the exact same water heater if it has 8 adequately served their needs. 9 But when FamilyA buys this home new, then 10 sells it, and Family B moves into it, those water 11 consumption patterns may change dramatically. And 12 that's when the homeowner will say, "Well, this 13 40-gallonwater heater isn't enough. I'mgoing tobuy 14 a 50-gallon" onlybecause they relate to capacity,not 15 to first-hour in my opinion. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Thankyou. Thank you. 17 Comment, please? 18 MR. RANFONE: You started talking about a 19 schedule of written comments. Basedon the discussion 20 today, areyou expecting comments bya certain date or 

### 2:

- 22 MR. BERRINGER: We can open this 2:3 discussion at the end of the day. Are 30 days 24 adequate to give comments? We'll determine it as one 25 of the closing items. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433156 1 MR. RANFONE: Again, Jim Ranfone, AGA. 2 To another issue, back to the first-hour 3 rating, its value or if it's not valuable, I ask the 4 question again. I don't. think we can just say 5 gallonage is the way to go on this thing. 6 It'sbeen thepractice in the past, but if 7 first-hour is a valid way -- Carl did some 8 stimulation. And he used a gas. I don't know what 9 assumptions you made in the gas. Iwouldn't consider 10 them valid from what I've heard said so far, but it's 11 not a gas/electric battle here. 12 What I'd like to see is an effort to 13 explain the size ofwater heaters properly so that you 14 don't have the complaints of callbacks of not enough 15 water heated. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Tough question. 17 Go ahead. 1:3 MR.RANFONE: If that's thepurpose of the 

### 19 first-hour rating was a scheme in order to categorize 20 water heaters, why isn't that tobe made when it was 21 first published in 1979? 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 23 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was just going to say 24 in terms of market data that DOE's -- I don't know 25 when the next RECS is going to be published or going 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433157 

### 1 to be sent out to people, the residential energy 2 consumption survey. 3 One area -- you know, obviously it asks 

### 4 about what type of waterheater, what type of fuel do 5 you have, do you have water, what type of water 6 heater, what type of fuel. 7 In some of those surveys, it might be of 8 benefit to DOE to ask, "Did you increase the size? 9 Did you decrease the size?"; some of the I'll just say 10 more consumer-type data, just to see what were the 11 main factors. 12 Itmightbeof interest for allparties to 13 see in anunbiased survey, "Whatdidpeople choose or 14 how did they choose it? And did they really care 15 about what the fuel source was? And how did they 16 figure out what size to buy? If they changed the 17 size, what were the main factors?"; things like that. 18 FACILITATOR RABA: Sure. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So just as another 

### 20 focusing on the future, another

-- 21 FACILITATOR RABA: On the future, sure. 22 Thank you. 23 Again, Icommendtoyouthe questions that 24 wehave askedabout this subject. What is thepurpose 25 of the first-hour rating? What are the different 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433158 1 methods fordetermining it, the testprocedures? We'd 2 like to get that input from you. And what is the 3 preferred method? Again, we need some constructive 4 direction-pointing comments, which would be very 5 helpful to us. 6 As an aside, I note that the workshop 7 procedure that we're going throughhere today is part 8 of the new process for the rulemakings on test 9 procedures. We hope to continue this forum,workshop 10 format, in the future to air these views out and to 11 get both sides and to hear everybody's points of view 12 as much as possible to engage in dialogue so that you 13 know that we're trying to be responsive to everybody 14 and everybody's concerns and needs but also entertain 15 data to come back to us, factual data, things like 16 that. We appreciate your time and efforts with that. 17 Any further discussion? We should move 18 on. We can table the first-hour rating now, if you 19 would. Any further discussion on this at this time, 20 please? 21 (Noresponse.) 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 23 Let's go on, please, to our next agenda 24 item, storage-type water heaters with storage 25 capacities of less than 20 gallons. Your agenda asks 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433159 1 some questions. Should test procedures be developed? 2 And if so, what type of test? What should the draw 3 rate and daily volume be? Should there be a lower 4 size limit? And should test procedures be developed 5 for storage-type less than ten gallons? 6 Would anybody care to open with any 7 background or views on that? Charlie? 8 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 9 I'd like to open this with a question. 10 Can somebody, one of the manufacturers here, tell us 11 what fractionof the storage waterheatermarket these 12 20 gallons and less represent? 13 MR. MILLER: Rick Miller with Rheem. 14 It's a small percentage of our business. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Ten? Three? Two? Seven? 16 MR. STANONICK: Closer to ten, closer to 17 ten. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Ten percent? 19 MR. STANONICK: Ten is probably a little 20 high but not much. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 22 MR. STANONICK: Let's say between six to 23 nine percent. 24 DR. HILLER: How many of those are gas? 25 MR. STANONICK: None. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433160 1 DR. HILLER: It's all electric? 2 MR. STANONICK: It's all electric. The 3 data we have is all electric. 4 DR. HILLER: So 10percent of the electric 5 water-heating market is 20 gallons or less? 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Brian? 7 MR. DOUGHERTY: Just curious. Ihad some 8 9 FACILITATOR RABA: Brian Dougherty from 10 NIST. 11 MR. DOUGHERTY: Thank you, Jim. 12 A 19-gallon gas, just underneath the 13 threshold? 14 MR. STANONICK: That product has pretty 15 much disappeared. 16 MR. DOUGHERTY: Okay. 17 MR. STANONICK: Earlier on, it was 20 18 gallons. Some people did 19. That approach has gone 19 by the wayside. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 22 I guess another question would be usage 23 pattern. Is it residential for aparticular appliance 24 or device, such as a whirlpool or something, or is it 25 a more general use? Is it multi-use or single-use? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433161 1 That's another critical factor on this discussion for 2 this particular unit. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Certainly. 4 Brian? 5 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 6 What happened here is simply that NAECA 7 included language, NAECA in regards to the standards 8 rulemaking back in '87. It was suggested that water 9 heaters less than 20 gallons should be covered. And 10 that's where this comes from. 11 The question is homeowners came in with 12 the question that as apercent of market, don't worry 13 about it. Even though NAECA says you should cover 14 them, justmaintain the existingapproach that this is 15 at a lower value. 16 So the question now becomes: Should we 17 take it to zero, should we leave it at 20, or should 18 we comeup with some othervalue inbetween? And once 19 we come to that bottomvalue, then go on with the rest 20 of the issues. That's kind of leading into the last 21 bullet items under this discussion. 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Frank, then Charlie. 23 MR. STANONICK: Frank Stanonick, GAMA. 24 To answer the last question, DOE has 25 already to some extent identified a floor, if you 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

## , _ _, ..162 

### 1 will. Gas instantaneous water heater has in its 2 definition a less than two gallons, two gallons. 3 Basically two gallons is the cutoff point. 4 So I think that does at least suggest one 5 possibility, which would be that you could take less 6 than 20 down to 2 gallons. And those can be 7 considered in this class of what I'll call 8 point-of-view storage water heaters. I'm not sure 9 what else to call it. 10 The thing is, first of all, to our 11 knowledge, they're all electric. Clearly, clearly 12 there's a lot of those that endup in an installation 13 that you wouldn't consider residential, but the fact 14 is the law says what it says. And so they've been 15 lumped in with this test procedure, if you will. 16 We're supportive of having some methodof 17 evaluating those products for efficiency. The more 18 we've looked into it, certainly a simulated use kind 19 of test, at least the one in the test procedures, 20 doesn't come close to having any relevance. 21 And even some other kind of test that 22 might have an energyfactor, at thispoint in time,we 23 haven't been able to figure a procedure that would 24 give youwhat I'm going to call a reasonable number. 25 Those products to the extent it was ever 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433163 1 -- well, to the extent it was enforced is a separate 

### 2 question,but thoseproducts hadn'tbeenaddressed for 3 a long time in ASHRAE Standard 90. 4 Those of you who go back that far, there 5 was standby loss for electric residentials that was 6 fourwatts per square foot of tank surface area. And 7 then you had a total of 43 watts, whichever was 8 greater. So there was, in fact, a minimum/maximum 9 standby loss if you followed that. 10 That really applied to those small-volume 11 products, where the concept of awattsper square foot 12 lost sense. And so what we have suggested is that's 13 how those products were addressed in ASHRAE Standard 14 90. 15 And to make the step of getting them in 16 the test procedures we think at this time what DOE 17 should do because it can be done quicker and we 18 believe perhaps with less andmuss is that kind of an 19 approach, to say, "Okay. For the less than 20, we're 20 not going to pretend that they compare to a 21 residential storagewaterheater. They'readifferent 22 product. And they are all electric. They're all 23 immersed elements. The recovery efficiency is a 24 known." And the only issue is really their standby 25 loss. So it could be addressedby strictly a maximum 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433164 

### 1 standby loss requirement. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Charlie? 3 MR. STEPHENS: We second. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Are there opposing 5 points of view? Carl? 6 DR. HILLER: I'mbasicallysupportingmost 7 ofwhat Frank just said. Let me state it a little bit 8 different way. There are reallykind of two issues. 9 One is: Should 20gallons or smallerhave a standard? 10 What do we get by having a standard, howmuch impact 11 onnational energyconsumptionorwhateverwe'regoing 12 to do by having the standard? 13 The second issue is: Ifwedecide tohave 14 a standard, what should that standard be? The last 15 proposal in 1995 was to have a similar draw schedule 16 to the larger tanks but with smaller volumes. 17 And just soeverybodyunderstandsthe same 18 playing fieldhere, the science is very clear on that 19 issue that if you take tanks smaller than 20 gallons, 20 especially smaller than 10 gallons, and try and apply 21 the 6 equal draws, the 64.3 gallons, you run out of 22 hot water. And once you run out of hot water, the 23 test is invalid. It's meaningless. So you have no 24 choice but to change the gallons consumption. 25 As soon as you change the gallons 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 

## . .165 1 consumption, you change the ratio of standby loss to 2 actual useful heat provided. And that changes the 3 efficiency. So it is if you change the gallons 4 consumed, it is notpossible,physicallynotpossible, 5 to meet the same energy factor equations. Those are 6 scientific facts. 7 So you've got to do something. If you're 8 going to have anykind of energyefficiency rating for 9 the smaller tanks, it has to be different than the 10 larger tanks. Then what is it? is the next question. 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Good question. What 12 would that be? Does anybody have any views on that, 13 thoughts, on what kind of procedure that would be? 14 MR. VAGO: What kind of procedure? 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Well, what procedure, 16 yes, if it's to be different, the same, different. 17 MR. STANONICK: Okay. My proposal would 18 be you would just run a standby loss test over 19 obviously some length of time, but you endup with an 20 hourly standby loss number. 21 DR. HILLER: In absolute watts or 2:2 something like that. 23 MR. STANONICK: Right. 24 FACILITATORRABA: Iheard a "Hear, hear" 25 in the back. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433166 1 MR. DOUGHERTY: Jim, just one thing. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead, Brian. 3 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 4 I like the loss test, too. The only thing 5 I want to bring into it is if you limit the 6 storage-type water heater to 64.3 gallons andbelow 20 7 you go to a standby loss test, would you use a 8 different drawprofile on instantaneous water heaters 9 that have a lower input -- we actually skipped over 10 that one from the morning -- or do you continue to 11 have instantaneous water heaters that have the low 12 input at 64.3 gallons, too? 13 It's a side issue I thought at one point 14 may have merit to test those at lesser daily uses if 15 that was a docket for the storage-type. But if you go 16 to a standby loss test for storage-type, then do you 17 stay with 64.3 because you can't -- 18 DR. HILLER: Let me address the issue of 19 energyfactor rating for an instantaneous waterheater 20 and discuss some of the issues. If you look at 2:L fossil-fired instantaneous water heaters, especially 22 ones that have a high enough heating rate to start to 23 look like they behave like tank-type water heaters, 24 those heat exchangers are very large. And they 25 represent a fairly significant thermal mass, both of 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433167 

### 1 thematerial and of thewater left inside of it during 2 the off cycle. 3 If you apply a 6-draw per day, you get 4 tremendouslydifferent lost energy out of that system 5 than ifyoudowhat reallyhappens inthe field,which 6 is more like 20 or 30 or 50 draws a day because the 7 percentage of energy lost out of that thermal mass of 8 the water and the heat exchanger in the off cycle 9 becomes a much higher percentage as you have more on 10 and off cycles. 11 Soapplyingsixequaldrawsdoesn't really 12 accuratelyrepresent how those systems perform in the 13 field. And the losses are much higher under a real 14 draw scenario. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. 16 MR. STANONICK: In talking about 17 instantaneous water heaters, I've got to distinguish 18 between the ones that are point of use and the -- if 19 we're talking about units that

-- 20 MR. DOUGHERTY: The ones that compete 21 against maybe these 20 or less

-- 22 MR. STANONICK: -- suggest it's going to 23 satisfy the entire house load, I think they should run 24 the same procedures. 25 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433168 1 I guess I had the question of the ones 2 that supposedly would be compared to the 3 20-gallon-or-less storage waterheater. So if you had 4 a tank gallon storage water heater and you had an 5 instantaneous water heater that supposedly gave you 6 comfortable performance, one mayhave an energyfactor 7 based on 64.3 gallons. Another onemay have a standby 8 loss value. 9 MR. STANONICK: Well, but I think this 10 other one that you just had there, I don't think it 11 would have an energy factor either. 12 FACILITATORRABA: Excuseme. I'mgetting 13 lost here. Are we talking about 20-gallon-or-less 14 capacity or 10-gallon-or-less capacity or 15 instantaneous or storage or all of the combinations? 16 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 17 I apologize for muddying the waters, but 18 we skipped over the last item on the instantaneous 19 water heaters, and we broke for lunch. It had to do 20 with: Do youuse an energy factoringmethod for these 21 lower heating rate units? 22 The thought that I had coming in here was 23 that, well, I guess you do, but the question is: 24 Would you apply a lesser daily draw profile on them 25 because whenyou test at 64.3 gallons, they just don't 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433169 1 keep up in the test? And you have this huge 2 correction to get them back to 135. 3 MR. STANONICK: Frank Stanonick. 4 For the instantaneous water heaters that 5 I thought we were talking about in this discussion, 6 which was primarily the electric,my suggestion would 7 be you don't run an energy factor test on those. 8 MR. DOUGHERTY: Period, period. 9 MR. STANONICK: I mean, I tend to think 10 those are going to -- they're more so toward the 11 point-of-use kind of application, although I guess 12 some people try and suggest you can use it in the 13 whole house. Maybe you have to give some thought to 14 how you address that. 15 Understand that doesn't say, at least the 16 way I look at things, you're not going to give some 17 information about consumption, againbecause if Ihave 18 a gallonper minute, whether it's 50 or 75, and if I'm 19 assuming a 98 percent efficiency with its heating, I 20 can figure out pretty easily what its electrical 21 consummation would be per gallon if that's kind of my 22 measure of merit. And maybe that's what you do. 23 I guess my point is that I don't see the 24 energy factor applying, but I still accept or still 25 believe you need it at the end point to give, in 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 -- _.a170 

### 1 addition to some measure of capability, some measure 2 of consumption. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Thankyou. Thanks for 4 bringing us back, Brian. Iappreciate that. 5 Carl? 6 DR. HILLER: Question for Frank. On 7 fossil-firedinstantaneouswaterheaters, -- andthere 8 are some of those that are applied in larger 9 applications -- do you think the 6-draw scenario 

### 10 accurately represents what the 64.3 gallons -- do you 11 think that accurately represents the kind of losses 12 that those systems are really having to feel? 13 MR.STANONICK: Iguess I'dsay it's close 14 enough. And I'm trying to remember. Don't even come 15 close to quoting me on this. But I have this memory 16 that at somepoint therewas someworkdone onvarying 17 draw schedules applied to instantaneous waterheaters 13 to see what kind of energy factor you got out of 19 there. And Imight be confusing some work here, but 20 if I can find that, I certainly will bring it out 21 again. I think it's close enough. 22 One of the issues raisedhereactually to 23 me is a bigger question. There's some comment 24 suggesting that apparentlybecause theycan, that the 25 .test procedures shouldrecognizethat thepilotcanbe 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433171 

### 1 turned off when the water heater is not being used. 2 And so since you can do that, they're 3 saying the test procedure should recognize that. 4 Obviously that will change the energy factor a lot 5 because the pilot on instantaneous is a loss. When 6 you're not heating water, it's not doing much of 7 anything. 8 Andthere'sasuggestionhere that if it's 9 amanually operatedpilot, people will go turn it off 10 and not use any hot water. If you've had some 11 experiencewith theEuropeanheaters, whereyou hadto 12 throw coins in to get the hot water, that maybe what 13 the people in the United States would be willing to 14 do. But that wouldbe ahuge change in theirpattern 15 of hot water usage that before they went to bed, 16 they'd godownand shut off their pilot on their water 17 heater. Then they'd fight in the morning to see who 13 was going to get out ofbed first to go turn thepilot 19 back on. 20 MR. KUSTERER: It would be cheaper to go 21 to a car wash. 22 (Laughter.) 23 MR.KUSTERER: Throw inabuckandahalf. 24 You get all the water you want. Soap, rinsed, the 25 whole thing. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433172 1 FACILITATOR RABA: With brushes or 2 without? 3 MR. KUSTERER: With. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: If you find the data, 5 that would be very good. If you can't, well

-- 6 MR. STANONICK: I may be mixing up two 7 reports, but the question has been looked at, I think. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Sure. Okay. 9 In the back? 10 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Charlie Stephens. 11 It almost sounds to me like storage water 12 heaters and their standby losses is the 13 differentiation between that type of device and what 14 might be almost an annual fuel utilization efficiency 15 for fossil fuel-fired instantaneous water heater that 16 has some of the same characteristics except it's key 17 to water use, instead of air temperature andwhatever 18 losses the house has. It's only runningon other than 19 pilot when there's demand. 20 And thereare someheat-up, somewarm-off, 21 and cool-down losses associated with it just like in 22 a furnace. And I'm not sure if there are any related 23 types of test issues that could be used, but it is 24 clear I think that this needs some kind of a separate 25 test procedure. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433173 1 I don't have any recommendations on what 2 that is. 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 4 Carl? 5 DR. HILLER: There is some data. There 6 have been some field tests reported on instantaneous 7 fossil-firedwaterheaters inreal fieldapplications. 8 I'd be hard-pressed to quote the specific references 9 right now. We could probably dig them out. 10 My recollection of that -- and, again, 11 you've got tounderstand the use patterns andhow they 12 wouldhave compared toa tank-typewater heater in the 13 same application, et cetera. And therewere some that 14 flipped back and forth between a tank-type water 15 heater and instantaneous water heater. Frankmay even 16 know where some of these data reports are. 17 My recollection is that the difference in 18 seasonal energy consumption was the instantaneous 19 water heater only had slightly less consumption than 20 the tank-type water heater on a single basis. That's 21 how large the cycling losses were. 22 MR. STANONICK: Well, Frank Stanonick from 23 GAMA. 24 The test procedure, the current test 25 procedures -- and right now they are only being 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433174 

### 1 appliedto fossil fuel, to gas-fired from 50,000 up to 2 200,000. Okay? 3 But that current test proceduredoes show 4 that with an instantaneous water heater with, let's 5 just say, a reasonable sizepilot, which I'm going to 6 say ismaybe 500 btu, maybe a littlemore than that

-- 7 in fact, it may be a little higher than that. 8 But the energy factor from that water 9 heater doesn't come out. It comes out better than 10 minimum gas storage water heaters, but, in fact, the 11 energy factor indicates it would be comparable or is 12 comparable inefficiencytoahigher-endstoragewater 13 heater. 14 And so I guess that's why we're not as 15 concerned about the six. It's true if you put it 16 through more draws because of the heating and 17 cool-down cycles you're probably going to get a 18 different number, but let's say for the sake of some 19 commonality six draws seems to work all right for 20 instantaneous for other problems, but

-- 2:L DR. HILLER: We could test that pretty 22 easily in the lab, do it one long draw versus 6equal 23 draws versus 100 equal draws. We could plot that 24 difference. 25 MR. STANONICK: Keep inmindyoualways

-- 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433175 1 this is such an elusive thing. Imean, as soon as you 2 lock down any draw, there are lots of typical draws, 3 but there is no one real average draw. 4 We're dealing with how people use'hot 5 water in their homes. And it's so different from one 6 to the next. You can only hope you've got a fairly 7 representative one and move from there because there 8 isn't any average draw. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: We're going to have to 10 move on soon. Thank you. 11 In the back, Charlie? 12 MR. STEPHENS: Ihave aquestion for these 13 people who seem to -- 14 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. Louder. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 16 A question for Frank and Carl and whoever 17 else can answer the question. Would it be possible to 18 just have an efficiency factor related to whether it 19 has a pilot light or it doesn't, two groups, and a 20 burner efficiency when it's operating and some 21 lab-determined penalty for the amount of water that's 22 actually in the heat exchanger and left in the heat 23 exchanger after it's applied? 24 MR. STANONICK: Is it possible? Yes, but 25 at some risk here. Imean, just as one could build a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433176 1 storage water heater with an electronic ignition 2 system, one can build an instantaneous water heater 3 withan electronic ignition system. Ifa manufacturer 4 wants to get the benefit of doing away with that, it 5 can be done at a cost, at a cost. 6 But the concept that will let it have a 7 standing pilot but now base my test procedure on an 8 assumption that the homeowner is going to regularly 9 manipulate, they could do that with their storage 10 water heater. I mean, they could do that with their 11 storage water heater. I mean, they could turn it on 12 to the pilot position every night and probably save 13 some standby. It probably wouldn't be much. 14 We already have a huge difficulty dealing 15 with first-hour rating because of the human factor, 16 because of what people reallydo. To introduce in the 17 test procedure some perceived efficiency savings 18 because you're going to account that they may do 19 something else as far as manipulating the water 20 heater, I just don't -- that's a move in the wrong 21 direction, I believe. 22 MR. STEPHENS: No. I'mpushingyou in the 23 other direction. I'm asking: Can you calculate the 24 burner efficiency? Is that easy enough to do? 25 MR. STANONICK: Well, the test procedure, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433177 

### 1 yes. The test procedure does that. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Is it easy enough to 3 measure what the pilot light consumes? 4 MR. STANONICK: Yes. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Per hour? 6 MR. STANONICK: Yes. 7 MR.STEPHENS: Thenwhat I'msuggestingis 8 that you go to a calculational method after you know 9 those things and forget about draws somehowbecause if 10 the differences that we're talking about are five, 11 six, seven, eight percent in efficiency, compared to 12 what you could get through calculationally, then I 13 think if all you're going to do is move it a half a 14 point, one way or the other, I'm not sure it matters 15 that we be that accurate if you can get pretty 16 accurate with a calculational procedure based on the 17 features that it has and how it operates, when it 18 operates. 19 And I'd like to steer away from the test 20 procedure stuff if we can. 21 FACILITATORRABA: Go ahead, Brian. Give 22 you a break there. Thankyou. 23 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 24 There was aworkshop Ibelieve in 1985 at 25 NIST. At that time there was an issue of how to rate 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

## , , _178 1 heat pump water heaters. At that time there was an 2 idea put forward that: Well, we'll just have a 3 different test procedure for heat pump water heaters. 4 And the outcome of that process in the late '80s was: 5 No. We want to have everyone tested the same. 6 So as you're introducing changes, -- we 7 have some other issues here -- past consensus has 8 been: No. Don't do that because there may be a 9 tipping that occurs because of different test methods 10 that may favor one versus the other where if you test 11 them all the same way or as closely as you can, at 12 that time the consensus was that would be the 13 preferred option. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Idon't think you have the 15 same beast here. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Two. Go ahead, Carl. 17 Then you, Frank. Thank you. 18 DR. HILLER: If I may, I'd like to offer 19 a recommendation. We probably can't 100 percent 20 answer this issue right now, but we can certainly 21 collect data. that would really narrow down the 22 decision-making process. 23 I'm going to recommend that NIST could 24 test kindof the smaller end of the fossil-firedwater 25 heater range and the larger end of the fossil-fired 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433179 

### 1 instantaneous water heater range under different 2 breakups in the draw scenario. 3 I think ifyou're going tohave an energy 4 factor rating that's going tobeused andbe compared 5 to tank types,you'vegot touse 64.3 gallons,but you 6 can break that up in different draw scenarios, 6 7 draws, 100 draws, one long draw, and see what the 8 difference is in the efficiencythat you get by those 9 different scenarios. 10 If it's onlytwopercent, thenwho cares? 11 If it's 20 percent, then we've got to take a closer 12 look at it. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 14 Frank, did you want to comment, then? 15 MR. STANONICK: Only that the interest in 16 having the same test procedure is within the concept 17 of: Okay. Products in the market either do compete 18 against eachotherorare, infact, presentedasbeing 19 competitive products. 20 And so that'swhywe're not as concerned, 21 butwemight go to adifferent test procedure for less 22 than 20 because they have their own market, if you 23 will. But products out there in the field, in the 24 market that dogetpresentedasbeing equalways to do 25 the same job, our contention should be tested to the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433180 

### extent possible for the same test procedure. And that's why on the instantaneous, again, as Carl pointed out, you saw some huge difference. That may change the situation. But basically we think they should be tested, as others

are tested in storage water heaters. FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead, Carl. DR. HILLER: One issue that would remain alongwith that, is in all likelihood, you can't meet the same draw. Andwhat doyoudo about that whenyou

run that test? MR. STANONICK: And then there's at least

an attempt to address that, yes. FACILITATOR RABA: Further views on this subject? (Noresponse.) FACILITATORRABA: I thinkwe shouldmove on, please. Can we come back to the less than 20 gallons storage type or less than 10 gallons? Where did we leave that? Bring me back up to speed on those, please. MR. STANONICK: Could I ask a question? FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. MR. STANONICK: Why do you ask the question? I mean, again, from GAMA's perspective, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

### 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 10 11 12 13 14: 15 16 17 18 13 19 20 21 2:2 23 24 25181 1 less than 20 goes from 20 to 2. What's magic about 2 ten? 3 FACILITATOR RABA: Help me out, Brian. 4 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 5 That was where the magic dividing line 6 was. If you use the simulated use test, how much

-- 7 MR. STANONICK: Okay. 8 MR. DOUGHERTY: So it was just from 9 ASHRAE. That was the dividing point in ASHRAE. 10 MR. STANONICK: All right. Now I 11 understand. 12 MR. DOUGHERTY: That's why that number 13 shows up. That's the only reason. I thinkwhat it is 14 is that the summarywas that 20 or less, the market is 15 electric water heaters only. 16 And because you have this pinned down 17 pretty well as far as recovery efficiency, the thing 18 that you're lacking is the loss. So, rather than try 19 and get an energy factor from a 24-hour simulateduse 20 test, instead, go with a standby loss test. I guess 21 that was it. 22 Do you then convert that into energy 23 usage? Do you take it the next step? 24 MR. STANONICK: It seems to me that 25 somehow you have to, somehow. I'm not sure that 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433182 

### 1 answers. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Can somebody else 3 respond to the question, help Frank out? Go ahead, 4 Steve. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Let me get a 6 clarification. Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric 7 Institute. 8 You were trying to just correlate standby 9 losses to overall energy consumption? 10 MR.DOUGHERTY: That's what you'dhave to 11 do, yes. That's not the question. You have to do 12 that. It's the next step. 13 MR. STANONICK: Not just standby. 14 ' MR. DOUGHERTY: Yes. You'd have to take 15 in the recovery efficiency, which is known for 16 electric. You have to do it by a calculation. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Based on -- 

### 18 MR. DOUGHERTY: Has to do a draw test, a 19 24-hour simulateduse. We have imposeddrawand then 20 

### 21 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Sowhat you're saying is 22 figure out what the standby losses are and then do 23 this other test to do the overall? 24 MR. DOUGHERTY: Not another test, but a 25 calculation of

-- 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433183 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a calculation, rather than another test? MR. DOUGHERTY: Right. MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I wanted to clarify what you were trying

-- FACILITATOR RABA: Are there other areas to clarify on that? MR. ROSENSTOCK: You're not making a big leap from a standby loss into an overall consumption, in other words. Okay. All right. DR. HILLER: Can I venture a recommendation here

-- FACILITATOR RABA: Sure. DR. HILLER: -- at the risk of being shot down on it? We know that these smaller tanks are all electric. We know kind of the input efficiency. I would argue 98 percent, but that's in the change. If we developed a standby loss from measurement test and then a standard that saidyou had to meet a minimumwatts as a function of tank volume; in other words, you go down from two to some minimum threshold, you don't go below, it seems to me that would both allow us to compare the standby loss of different tanks. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20) 21 22 23 24 25

(202)234-4433 (202)234-4433184 

### 1 It's down in the 20-gallon or less range 2 the consumptions are -- the use patterns are not 

### 3 nearly so clear as in the larger tanks. So why even 4 bring the gallon consumption into the issue? Just 5 compare it on standby loss. And you can mandate 6 higher efficienciesby changing the required equation 7 that they have tomeet. 8 We're going to have a different standard 9 down below 20 gallons no matter what. So why not do 10 it that way? It's simple that way. 11 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 12 Keep energy out of it. And, in fact, 13 based on the passage clearance, it may be a single 14 number for all of those tanks because of the great 15 impact of the fittings, asopposed toa jacket size or 16 volume. So it just maybe a singlenumber,as opposed 17 toone that actually slides, but itmay slide slightly 18 based on volume. 19 DR. HILLER: We could test existing 20 products out there, see how they test on the standby 21 loss, look at what we think is, you know, is a crummy 22 tank, is a good tank, and kindof set it tomeet some 23 reasonable number, rather than the crummy tank. 24 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA. 25 I did learn something today, that there 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433185 1 are a hell of lot of these variants out there. I 2 didn't realize that that market was so big. They are 3 unregulated. I mean, youbuild a less than 20-gallon 4 electric water heater, you don't have to meet 5 anything. 6 Whether it's a standby loss requirementor 7 avariation.of the currentprocedure, somethinghas to 8 be done. That's a hell of a hit that youhave to face 9 out there when you've estimated 350,000 of these being 10 shipped every year and you've got regulated product, 11 like direct heatingequipment, for example,well under 12 200,000 products a year. 13 So Iwould just suggest we get onwith it. 14 FACILITATORRABA: Anymore thoughts about 15 the test procedure that Carl advanced, the idea of 16 that test procedure? Do you agree/disagree? 17 MR. STANONICK: Iguess Ihadmentioned it 18 earlier, and I just want to make sure that we're still 19 thinking this. I think for this product, you still 20 need to make some estimate of consumption per gallon 21 of hot water deliveredor somethingbecause thatwould 22 go into the mix. 23 I'm trying to envision somebody who's 24 trying to evaluate what this product can do and as 2!5 part of this scheme also give some sense of what, if 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433186 

### 1 youwill, it costs them to do that, whetheryouput an 2 energy or whatever. 3 And so it seems tome you have -- the real 

### 4 requirementwouldbe a standby,but in terms of trying 5 to estimate some consumption, there has to be some 6 measure of what's the consumption of providing a 7 gallon of hot water, however the hot water is going to 8 be defined. 9 DR. HILLER: Since that's electrics, 10 though, it's so easy to do. 11 MR. STANONICK: Iknow. I'm just saying 12 it has to be

-- 

### 13 DR. HILLER: I don't think the test you 14 need is a standby. 15 MR. STANONICK: I know. It's an easy 16 thing, yes. 

### 17 MR. MILLS: James Mills, FTC. 18 Just a reminder I think that I think the 19 Department is required bystatute tocomeupwith that 20 kind of ameasurement and at least one other. And at 21 the FTC, these products do have to be labeled. And 22 right now what has to be on the label is energy 23 consumption. So Ithink you're on the right track. 24 FACILITATORRABA: Goodpoint. Thankyou. 25 Jim? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433187 1 MR. LUTZ: Jim Lutz, LBNL. 2 Is there anybody,especially in themarket 3 area, who might know how these things are installed 4 and what's a typical use? Recommending some -- how 5 are you going to pick a pattern or draw a pattern or 6 gallons per day or gallons per year to rate them at? 7 Youneed that. Otherwise, you can't get a consumption 8 figure. 9 MR. MILLER: Rick Miller with Rheem. 10 To answer your question, as I think Frank 11 pointed out earlier, most less than 20-gallon water 12 heaters are not installed in single-family homes. 13 Some are, remote baths, somebodyhas a bar sink, a lot 14 of applications where they could be used. By and 15 large, the majority of these products and sold and 16 installed in other than residential homes; this 17 building, forexample, gas stations, officebuildings, 18 doctors' buildings, et cetera, where they have small 19 requirements of hot water at various intervals. 20 MR. KUSTERER: Recreational vehicles. 21 MR. MILLER: RVs, different category, 22 different classification, by theway, in what we call 23 the point-of-use water heater that goes from 2 and a 24 half gallons up to 20. That's where we see a lot of 25 those installed. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433188 

### 1 MR. LUTZ: Any idea what type of building 2 sees the majority of them? 3 MR. MILLER: No. 4 MR.LUTZ: Are you talking five gallons of 5 water a day? Twenty gallons of water a day? 6 MR. MILLER: That data we don't 7 necessarily get. That's developed by some engineer 8 who is spec-ing the application. He may say, "I'll 9 put in one 15-gallon point-of-use heater to service 5 10 laboratories on a floor of an office building" or it 11 maybe one doctors' office that needs water in each of 12 his examination rooms. He may have three individual 13 two-and-a-half-gallonheaters or somethingalongthose 14 lines. So it really varies. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 16 Carl and then Steve. 17 DR. HILLER: Letme offeranobservational 18 fact that for the tank-typewater heaters now,we have 19 the six equal draws analysis with the exception of 20 off-peak water heaters which turn the active heating 21 elements off during much of the day. 22 It is the case that as long as you don't 23 run out of hot water during the draws from a total 24 energy consumption analysis standpoint, you consume 25 the standby losses constant. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433189 1 In otherwords, six draws versus one draw 2 makes like a one percent or a two percent difference 3 in the number. So the draw pattern except for 4 instantaneous fossil-fired water heaters, the heat 5 exchanger is unimportant, the gallons per day that 6 govern. 7 You could even do it on the big water 8 heaters. Take one draw. It wouldn't make any 9 difference. It has a minuscule effect on the 10 efficiency. 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just based on what Mr. 13 Miller said fromRheem, it's obvious that these are -- 14 it seems the majority of them in terms of test 15 procedure, that it's single function. You don't have 16 to worry about a wide range of end uses for this 17 product. 18 It's notgoing tobe also forhand-washing 19 as well as dish-washing or laundry. It just seems 20 like it's one function, one end-use function, one 21 profile. And also it's probably a much narrower 22 temperature range in terms of what the outlet 23 temperature has to be. 24 That's just what it seems like. That is 25 the market for them: One function, pretty much one 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433190 1 temperature. You're not trying to meet a very wide 2 bandwidth of topic temperatures. I think a lot of 3 people can agree on that. 4 DR. HILLER: If we had the standby energy 5 loss number, we could give the user an equation to 6 plug in their gallons per day to determine. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Can someone develop 8 that? 9 Charlie? 10 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens. 11 That still is relevant. They still have 12 to be labeled. And they stillhave an annual kilowatt 13 hour number on them. To the extent that the 64.3 14 gallons that we're using for the other water heaters 15 is based on something, it would be nice if we had 16 something we could base this on it as well, although 17 I, for one, don't know of any data that we could use 18 right now. 19 FACILITATOR RABA: It sounds like we need 20 more data. 21 Stan, go ahead. 22 MR. LIU: Actually 118

-- 2:3 FACILITATORRABA: Stanley Liu fromNIST. 24 MR. LIU: Stan Liu, NIST. 25 Actually 118.1 or 2 specifies 24 gallons 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433191 1 for the tank, 20 gallons, and then 9 gallons per day 2 for below 10 gallons. That's a number there for 3 folks. If you had the number, draw gallons per day, 4 then you could come up with any. The point is that 5 number can beused for some other numberandverified. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: It was 110.2, is it? 7 118.2? 

### 8 MR. STEPHENS: Question,Stan: Does that 9 come close to being able to be put into some kind of 10 an equation, like 1.2 times the rated storage volume 11 or something as the dailydraw? 12 MR. STANONICK: I think -- well, you can 

### 13 answer him. 14 MR.LIU: That one just -- the committee's 

### 15 decision, actually the'committee's decision. 16 MR. STANONICK: Ithink thepoint is that 17 for that product, you don't need to do the draw 18 schedules. There will need to be some agreement as 19 to: Okay. What arewegoing to assume isadailyuse 20 for this size? 21 Those numbers are good starting points, 22 but once you've determined that, let's say it's nine 23 gallons aday. Okay? If we know the consumptionper 24 gallondelivered,well, that's nine times thatamount. 25 And then youcan justback outthe standby 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433192 1 period. And we have an hourly standby, which also 2 multiplied, the answer can be figured out as a daily 3 consumption and then yearly if you need it. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Other thoughts to 5 advance this? Other thoughts? Does this cover the 6 20-gallon? How about the ten-gallon: same, same, or 7 something different? I see nods yes. Do I see nods 8 no? I see nodding off. 9 DR. HILLER: The arguments are the same 10 untilyou get down to the really small two gallons and 11 less. Those are such a specific application, the two 12 gallonsand less, especiallytank-type twogallons and 13 less, aredefinitelysinglepoint-of-useapplications, 14 very limited use. 15 MR. STANONICK: My choice would be to' 16 categorize it as an instantaneous, whatever procedure 17 is for that one. But I'd say that one enters into 18 another category. Whether it's less than two or two, 19 I don't know, but, I mean -- 20 DR. HILLER: It's an entirely different 21 beast. 22 MR. STANONICK: Yes. 23 DR. HILLER: It's meant for a cup of hot 24 water for coffee or something like that, not really 25 meant on a continuous drawbasis. It can't be on 150 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433193 1 watts, 150 volts. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Does that go to the 3 question of: Should there be a lower size limit, two 4 gallons? 5 DR. HILLER: Right. I'm arguing for a 6 lower size limit, two gallons or less. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 8 Charlie? 9 MR. STEPHENS: I would concur with that. 10 And I guess I have to question why we would bother 11 with an energy efficiency rating on something like 12 that. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 15 Yes. Iwould concur withDr. Hiller togo 16 from 2 to 20 gallons for this categorization. But 17 also the next thingwouldbe, well, in actuality, like 18 the other person was saying, there are 2 different 19 gallons per day. Ten to 20 gallons is 24 gallons per 20 day. Ten and below, it's nine gallons per day. 21 So there is going to be a difference in 22 terms of labeling. That will make a difference 23 obviously in the annual energy consumption. 24 FACILITATOR RABA: Mr. Miller? 25 MR. MILLER: Rick Miller with Rheem. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433194 

### 1

- I guess this will get off the subject a 2 little bit, but should these products even be rated? 3 I guess that's to the gentleman from Argonne's 4 question. 5 Youcan't applythe sametest to aproduct 6 less than 20gallons for the reasons that havealready 7 been discussed. When you consider where these 8 products are installed and the wide range of 9 applicationof these, who isgoingtobenefit from it? 10 Is the goal to provide some means of 11 measuring, as with higher capacity water heaters, 12 Product A versus Product B or what is the purpose I 13 guess is what I'm asking? Who is going tobenefit by 14 measuring these products? 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Don? 16 MR. ABRAMS: Don Abrams from Abrams and 17 Associates. 18 I'd say a very direct benefit for 19 commercial applications, again not residential, if 20 you're specifying point of use, in a building like 21 this, there might be 500 of them. 22 The standby loss becomes a critical 23 concern in terms of the annual energy budget for a 24 building. So I'd say there's a big concern to both 25 the building operator and for DOE. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433195 1 MR. MILLER: That's a good plan. I would 2 agree with that. If you're going to measure them, 3 measure the standby loss. I think that's the only 4 thing you could really measure. 5 MR. ABRAMS: I understand. That's 6 something we've been talking about, including that. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Charlie? 8 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Charlie Stephens 9 again. 10 We had thought about that as well. And I 11 think Imight be able to concur with that. If we just 12 are going to measure the standby loss and try to get 13 at the annual consumption that way, it might be better 14 to exempt them from normal labeling rules. 15 Fromwhat I've heard, these things aren't 16 going in -- they're not being chosenbecause of their 17 energy efficiencyper se, though if you cover standby 18 loss, you'll get most of the losses that people are 19 concernedabout. They're beingpurchased forpoint of 20 use pretty much, no matter who does it. 21 And ifyou insulate themwell, cutdown on 22 the standby losses sufficiently, you've pretty much 23 done all you can do toget the benefit out of any kind 24 of a rating for these things. 25 Andperhaps the easierandbetter thing to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433196 1 do would be indeed regulate them byputting them in a 2 separate class where only standby losses are 3 essentially specified, maximum standby losses, and 4 exempt them from the typical annual consumption 5 labeling because they aren't bought that way. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 7 Anybody else? Give Charlie abreak there. 8 Thank you, Charlie. 9 Anybody else? 10 MR. ABRAMS: Yes. Don Abrams again. 11 I think that's a good point as long as 12 they remain all electric devices. As soon as you put 13 a combustion device in, then the energy diversion 14 pressure is out of proportion again. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. 16 Go ahead, Charlie. Back to you. 17 MR. STEPHENS: I think you're going to 18 find that most of the uses aren't going tohappen that 19 way. You're not going to put a combustion device in 20 there. The cost of the flue and the exhaust and 21 everything tends tomake that kind of an installation 22 nonviable for most -- 23 MR. STANONICK: Just economically not 24 feasible. 25 MR.MORRISON: Putting oneunderyour sink 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433197 1 is just

-- 2 FACILITATORRABA: Identifyyourself, sir. 3 Thank you. 4 MR. MORRISON: Dean Morrison, Rheem. 5 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 6 MR. MORRISON: Putting a vented system 7 underyour sink is just not apractical option inmost 8 cases. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: Jim? 10 DR. HILLER: Yes. It's a combination 11 heater. 12 (Laughter.) 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Did we have that 14 discussion? This is an interesting topic, broken down 15 and reassembled. It's a good topic. 16 Could I invite you to move along on the 17 agenda, please? 18 MR. MILLS: One last thing. 19 FACILITATORRABA: Go ahead. JamesMills. 20 MR. MILLS: James Mills, FTC. 21 On that issue that Charlie Stephens 22 raised, just so it's on this rulemaking record, if you 23 wanted to have those products exempted from the 24 labeling requirements of the FTC's rule, thatwouldbe 25 something you could petition the FTC to consider in a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433198 1 rulemaking, perhaps along with some of the other 2 issues that might be appropriate for that kind of an 3 undertaking. 4 Youmight put them all in one package, and 5 we could deal with how to rate instantaneous water 6 heaters and whether to cover these small, very small 7 storage water heaters any more under the rule. 8 It could all be done in one rulemaking, 9 just so you would know what you need to do. 10 FACILITATOR RABA: It sounds efficient. 11 Thank you. 12 Moving right along, we're scheduled for a 13 2:30 break. If you'd like to make that, let's go on, 14 then, to continue. Discussion on daily hot water 15 usage and thermostat settings. There are some 16 questions in your agenda. And I also commend your 17 attention to the questions in the "Federal Register" 18 notice. 19 Does the daily uses assumed in current 20 test procedures of 64.3 gallons reflect realistic 21 daily hot waterusage? And if not, what volume should 22 it be? Andhowwould the energy factor be affected if 23 testingwere conductedat a dailyhotwater use volume 24 other than 64.3 gallons? And then will the change 25 cause confusion in the marketplace? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433199 

### 1 Again open it up to your discussion, 2 please. Carl? 3 DR. HILLER: Let me take the temperature 4 issue. I would argue that we should stick with 135. 5 Idon't see any strong argument to go to 120, and for 6 good reason. 7 I mentioned earlier some of our tests 8 where we looked at the repeatability and variability 9 of how thermostats actually turn on and off. They 10 don't always turn onandoff the same temperature. It 11 is also a function of the rate of drawout of the tank 12 and the temperature surrounding the tank as to how 13 they behave and how well the thermostat is insulated 14 from the outside environment. 15 Whenyou consider it all and you look at 16 the dead bands, the typical on/off differential of a 17 core element for an electric tank is in the 5 to 18 15-degree range, 5 to 10 being most typical. The 19 upper thermostats are 20 to 30 typically,much larger 20 dead bands. And the reason for that is to prevent 21 wear-out of the upper thermostat due to repeated 22 on/off cycling during mixing during the reheat 23 process. Typical fossil-firedwaterheaters, at least 24 the ones that I've tested, seemto be in the, say, 15 25 to 25-degree dead band range. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433200 

### 1 The net result of that dead band and that 2 variability is that if you set awater heater to turn 3 off at 120, you risk under a variety of scenarios 4 having inadequate temperature in the tank at the time 5 you use the water. 6 Believe me, in my house I set the water 7 heaters as low as I can. I have gas and electric 8 waterheaters and the abilityto switchback and forth 9 between them. 10 I cannot set mywater heater down to 120 11 because inthe summertime, the tankdoesn't come onat 12 nighttime tomakeup standby loss. Inthewintertime, 13 it does. And thewater ishot when I've got to use it 14 in the morning. In the summertime, it loses less 15 heat, doesn't trigger the thermostat. And if I have 16 it set at 120, the tank is at 100 when I get up 17 because it hasn't triggered back up yet. 18 So, given all of those variability 19 factors, I would argue and indeed we see in our test 20 data howpeople have theirwater heater thermostat set 2:L when we got there. One thirty to 135 is very typical 22 of what we see in the field. And I would argue just 23 keep it there. 24 FACILITATOR RABA: Keep it there? Okay. 25 Again, a thank you to Carl for bringing my attention 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433--_ 201 1 again to the thermostat settings on your "Register" 2 notice for those questions. 3 Charlie, you're up first, then Steve. 4 MR. STEPHENS: I'll just endorsewhat Carl 5 said. The data that we have right now amounts to 6 several thousand water heat customers in the 7 Northwest. It pretty much confirms what Carl says. 8 The vast majority are clustered between 9 130 and 135, very few below 130 and a fair number 10 above 135. The mean tends to run right around 134 for 11 most of the customers. It's a little lower if you 12 look only at participants in energy efficiency 13 programs but not below 130. 14 So Iwould concur that 135 is a reasonable 15 number to use. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve, you're up. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Two quick ones, 18 just two issues at once. In terms of daily usage, 19 there does seem to be a lot of materials here that 20 would suggest that a proper statistical median usage 21 or mean -- I don't know whether you would prefer to 22 use amedian or amean -- wouldbe somewhere in the 50 23 to 57-gallon, hot gallons, per day of hot water in 24 terms of how to use I'll say a midpoint for testing 25 purposes. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433202 1 There's data in here, and there's others. 2 I think the old LBNL report also talked about looking 3 at numbers like 58 gallons per day or 57 gallons per 4 day based on a variety of household factors. 5 In terms of thermostat settings, I know 6 that over the past several years there have been a lot 7 of utilities and a lot of publications that have 8 suggested that, again, people put their hot water 9 heaters at 120 degrees to prevent scalding and to save 10 energy, et cetera, et cetera. 11 One issue that -- Iknow there's a lot of 12 gas water heaters out there that don't have 13 temperature settings per se. They will say "warm" 14 versus "hot" and various factors in between. It's a 15 turn knob. 16 So, again, I don't know whether there's 17 beentesting done because a lot of waterheaters might 13 say, "Put it here for warm water that will meet your 19 needs." That's probably likely at the 130-degree 20 range. I'mnot exactly sure. It all depends probably 21 on the main factor, what they call warm versus hot, 22 what the exact temperature setting is. 23 So, again, there couldbe arguments to say 24 that with all of the literature out there andwithall 25 of the -- again, there is going to be quite a range 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433203 1 between where exactly are people setting their water 2 heaters in the market andwhere the low range on a gas 3 water heater or oil, whether that warm is 120 versus 4 130. Again, that's probably for lab testing or some 5 sort of testing, field testing, but especially for 6 electric, where the actual temperatures are on a 7 scale. 8 Inmany instances -- and again, depending 9 on how aggressive utilities have been -- many people 10 in the past, gosh, I would say, 20 years have been 11 being told, "Put it at 120 degrees." 12 So that would be my kind of -- I'll say 13 it's market-based. There are a lot of water heaters 14 out there, over 90 million. What have people done? 15 Andmaybe they've responded to price factors as well. 16- That could also be an issue. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Jim, do you have a 18 comment? 19 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA. 20 First, a question for Charlie. You said 21 that youhave.a field survey, inspected a lot of water 22 heaters, and came to the conclusion that the average 23 setting was about 134. I assume they were all 24 electric water heaters or were there some gas? 25 MR. STEPHENS: No. There have been a lot 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

## \_, _ .204 

### 1 of gas involved. 2 MR. RANFONE: Howdid youdetermine that? 3 MR. STEPHENS: They weren't actually 4 settings. We were examining the actual water 5 temperature that came out of the tap from the exit 6 from the water system closest to the water heater. 7 MR. RANFONE: So you were getting 134 8 coming out of that typically? 9 MR. STEPHENS: One thirty-one for the one 10 batch, 134 for another, dependent on a little bit 11 where you were. And, again, you're at the water 12 heaterper se. You're at the closesthot water outlet 13 to thewaterheater, whichmeans you're going to have 14 a little bit of loss. We know that. 15 It didn't matter what you told these 16 people. Most of these people acknowledged that 17 somebody along the line had advised them to turn it 18 down to 120. They turned it back up. They weren't 19 happy with that. And I'mbeginning tounderstandwhy 20 as we go along. 21 Basically thousands, thousands and 22 thousands, of customers have been surveyed that way. 23 And it's pretty consistent. 24 MR. RANFONE: But it's not the fact that 25 the water heater was set at 134? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433 

## . .205 1 MR. STEPHENS: No. 2 MR. RANFONE: You're saying that the 3 temperature of the water heater could be set higher 4 than 134? 5 MR. STEPHENS: Magicallywe don't knowhow 6 in every case the water heater came tobe set where it 7 is. All we know is it was delivering water at the 8 closest tap to the water heater at 131 to 135 or '6 9 typically. 10 MR. RANFONE: Well, that leads me to the 11 second comment. And that's we are supporting a lower 12 thermostat setting in the test procedure. We did 13 provide testimony to that fact because we think that 14 hot water tap scalding is a problem. 15 There are a lot of effort, a lot of 16 programs to do that, toreduce the thermostat setting. 17 And we think that's really what's reflected in the 18 field. If you're finding that you've got water 19 heaters set much higher than that, I think you are at 20 risk of having some scalding problems. 21 Manufacturers have some pretty extensive 22 programs and labels, at least gas water heaters, like 23 properly setting thermostats and the dangers of 24 harmful tap scalding. 25 I thinkyou've got to make decisions. Is 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433206 1 that what's happening in the field? Is that the way 2 the water heaters should be rated or are we telling 3 customers one thing andproviding information another 4 way or testing another way? 5 FACILITATOR RABA: Saw a lot of hands go 6 up. Let me just sort this out. Steve first. And I 7 think we went to the back there and here. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. It was him. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. Sorry. Go 10 ahead. 11 MR.KUSTERER: George Kusterer,Bock Water 12 Heaters. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: George? 14 MR. KUSTERER: Oh, I'm sorry. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead, please. 16 MR. DUCH: Adam Duch, Group Thermo. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Thanks, George. 18 MR. DUCH: The interesting quote from 19 special concerns, American Society of Plumbing 20 Engineers, Legionnaires disease, the bacteria was 21 115-degreewater. That's when it grows at the fastest 22 rate. 23 So if you keep your water heater around 24 120 and the lower level of the water heater 25 stratified, it will be the range of 115. Keep it at 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433207 

### 1 120, and you're inviting a class action suit by the 2 ambulance-chasing lawyers. 3 MR. RANFONE: Keep it at 135, and you'll 4 get the other lawyers. 5 FACILITATOR RABA: Good point. 6 Let's see. Who wasnext? I think George 7 and over here and back here. 8 MR.KUSTERER: GeorgeKusterer,BockWater 9 Heaters. 10 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 11 MR. KUSTERER: I'm seriously concerned 12 about the 135-degree water. And we are, in effect, 13 proposing the lowering to 120 degrees. I realize my 14 colleague had just mentioned Legionnaires disease, 15 which is a virus and sometimes misconstrued in our 16 industry. 17 Having been no such a dumb farmer from 18 Pennsylvania but a fire chief out of New York, I've 19 seen a number of scalding cases and have had to 20 testifyas anexpertwitnessbefore anumber of courts 21 throughout North America with regard to scalding. 22 And if you pick up the newspaper, you 23 realize that you can go into Mcdonald's and win a 24 couple of a millon dollars. So what are we doing 25 sitting here? 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433208 1 Scalding is a tremendous issue. Andwe as 2 a water heater manufacturer of fossil fuel equipment 3 and element support the use of 120-degree water. If 4 a requirement isneeded to a greaterwater temperature 5 that an anti-scald valve or a mixing valve be 6 installed, either at the water heater or at the point 7 of use, 135 I think we're inviting big problems. 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views on that? 9 We had one here from Carl, then this gentleman here. 10 Go ahead. 11 DR. HILLER: Iamas concernedas everyone 12 else is about the scalding issue. I'm also fairly 13 knowledgeable about the Legionnella issue. I have 14 managed a lot of research and development on both 15 issues. Let me throw some data points out for you. 16 First of all, in terms of measuring the 17 water temperature at the closest tapversus at the top 18 of the water heater, in our field test, we did both. 19 And if you draw the draw long enough to heat up the 20 pipe, you get maybe a two-degree tap from what's 21 actually coming out of the water heater. So it's not 22 a big difference. 23 In terms of setting your temperature low 24 enough when you do the practice of setting your 25 thermostat down toas lowaspossible that serves your 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433209 1 need, you run into the fact and pay attention. It's 2 a very important statement. You realize that what 3 you're setting is the time temperature, not the 4 turn-off temperature. 5 Whenyou attempt to setyour thermostat at 6 the lowest possible setting that will serve the job, 7 what you're really doing is setting the minimum 8 turn-on temperature. Below that, if it doesn't turn 9 on on time, youget water that's not hot enoughout of 10 the tank. 11 That's exactly the scenario Irun into in 12 my own gas water heater in the summertime. And I find 13 to get rid of that issue, my minimum temperature -- 14 believe me, I've got young children. Pay very close 15 attention to this. 16 Ihave instrumentationonmyhouse. I can 17 measure the temperature. The lowest I can set my 18 turn-off temperature to get adequately warm water in 19 the summertime, turn the water heater off at 128. 20 I was going for the lowest temperature 21 that could serve the load. That was governed by the 22 tank not coming on to make up standby loss in the 23 summertime at night. And, therefore, I was at my 24 minimum temperaturebefore the thermostatwas goingto 25 kick on in the morning when I took a shower. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. {202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433210 

### 1 With a 20-degree deadband,you set it at 2 120. You get 100-degree water in the entire tank. 3 And you don't have hot water. So you must turn the 4 thermostat up ifyourdifferential is 20degrees or if 5 at least the way the tankbehaves, itbehaves as if it 6 were a differential of 20 degrees. 7 So while I understand all the arguments 8 about the lower temperature for stalling, et cetera, 9 the reality is 120 doesn't work in this in many 10 applications. There are cases where it does. 11 Ifyou get enough standby loss out of the 12 tank at night, then you never run into that at the 13 minimum temperature level when you go to use the 14 water, but there are a number of people who do. And 15 I happen to be one of them. 16 So 120 just doesn't work for all 17 customers. One thirty maybe, but then what's the 18 difference between 130 and 135 from an energy 19 efficiency standpoint is not much. 20 MR. KUSTERER: No, but the rate of 21 stalling changes. 22 DR. HILLER: Yes. 23 FACILITATOR RABA: We hada comment here, 24 please. 25 MR.VAGO: Otto Vago, State Industries. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)2344433211 1 For many,many years, the gas-fired water 2 heater thermostats have been set at the lowest point, 3 lowest possible point, as the water heater leaves the 4 manufacturing facilities. Formanyyears, that's been 5 that, the lowest possible setting. 6 Basically I'm responding to the 7 gentleman's comment here that the thermostat may be 8 set at 120, 130 at some point in time. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. We've got one, 10 two, three. Go ahead, George. 11 MR. KUSTERER: One point that I forgot to 12 bring out was we have to look at local, state, and 13 regional codes which are being implemented by code 14 enforcementofficials throughout theUnited States and 15 in Canada, where they are requiring a maximum of 16 120-degree water. 17 It exists right here in the State of 18 Maryland. The State of Maryland says you cannot 19 exceed 118.5. Now, that is a code requirement. 20 DR. HILLER: As shipped from the factory 21 or as installed? 22 MR. KUSTERER: As installed, not shipped 23 from the factory, because the code enforcement 24 official is not concerned about what comes out of the 25 factory. Our concern when they go to inspect the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433212 1 equipment installed by a license contractor is that 2 the water temperature does not exceed 118.5 degrees. 3 In fact, in the State of Maryland, in all 4 of their municipal buildings, including hospitals, 5 nursing homes, andprisons, thewater is not to exceed 6 115 degrees. 7 Now, here we are saying it's okay to use 8 135 degrees, but the code enforcement officials are 9 saying, "We want 120 degrees." 10 DR. HILLER: So, actually, in the process 11 of inspecting each water heater installation, they 12 actually take a thermometer to the closest tap or 13 something and take a -- 14 MR. KUSTERER: Yes, they do. They 15 absolutely do. 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 17 Go ahead over here on the side. Tim, is 18 it? 19 MR. BERNARDOWSKI: Tim Bernardowski, 20 Virginia Power. 21 I'm notmakinga recommendation somuchas 22 an observation. First, on the daily news issue, I 23 tried to do some research and head back and see where 24 that number, that 64 whatever, came up and how it was 25 originally developed. I'm not sure it wasn't 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433213 

### 1 established sometime before the invention of paper. 2 We recognize that that number has been 3 around for a long time. We also recognize that there 4 have been a lot of demographic changes and changes in 5 the way folks live and things that they do, which 6 leads me to believe that that 64-gallon number is 7 probably high. That is, it probably should be 8 something lower. There is some prettygooddata that 9 shows that it probably should be around 50 or down 10 there. 11 So if you want to, I guess one of the 12 things that's pushing me in all of this is that if 13 we're going to go through the bother of doing all the 14 testing and providing all of this data to the 15 customer, let's try to as much as we can kind of 16 simulate the wayhe uses the equipment. So if you're 17 going to try and go that route, then I think there's 18 a lot of argument for going toa lowerdailyuse rate. 19 Similarly, if you look at the water 20 temperature set, I see anumber of dichotomies there. 21 First off, I'mnot sure -- there are somany versions 2:2 of the test procedure I'mnot sure if Iwas lookingat 23 the right one. The one I was looking at seemed to 24 indicate to me that the way the tank temperature is 25 tested is it's actually measured. You basically 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433214 1 fiddle with the thermostat until you get 135 in the 2 tank. 3 Idon't knowof anycustomerwho does that 4 to set his tank temperature. What he does if he knows 5 where the thermostat is -- and my market research 6 people tell me that there's a large percentage of the 7 customers that have no clue where the thermostat 8 setting is. If he does, he does it based on what's 9 written on the thermostat. So it's not real clear to 10 me that from that standpoint the test really tests as 11 a customer uses the equipment. 12 I also tried to look at this 135/120 13 issue. I got on the internet and starting browsing 14 state energy office Web pages. I started finding, 15 trying to find, what state energy offices recommended 16 thermostats be set at. I quit at about 15 Web pages, 17 and I didn't find anything above 125. 18 So, 'again, if you test at 135 degrees, 19 there's this big dichotomy. By the way, I also found 20 on some of the DOE Web pages recommendations for 123 21 temperature settings. 22 So there's adichotomy there. If youhold 23 it at the higher temperature, the 135, you are not 24 testing it the way you are telling people to use the 25 water heaters. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433215 1 I recognize there's a problem with the 2 dead bands. And I totally agree that that's probably 3 valid, but you've got to get rid of that dichotomy 4 somehow. It doesn't make sense to be testing at 135 5 and tell everybody to set them at 120. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 7 Frank? 8 MR. STANONICK: Let me first state our 9 position. The answer to that dichotomy is not ignored 10 but changes thinking because the test procedure

-- 11 people shouldn'tbelieveorpresent the test procedure 12 as a prediction of what the efficiency is going to be 13 in the installation. It won't happen. It won't 14 happen. Carl only had 14 houses, and his range of 15 usage went from 28 a day to 123. And forget what 16 temperature you're dealing with. 17 We look at the daily hot water usage and 18 thermostat setting as two sides of the same coin. 19 It's clear if you raise the daily hot water usage, 20 your energy factor goes up. If you lower it, your 21 energy factor is going to go down. If you change the 22 thermostat setting and lower it, in general probably 23 your energy factor is going togo up. And that maybe 24 a little more depending on where you pick it. 25 Right now we have, if you will, a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433216 

### 1 measuring stick of how to compare water heater 2 efficiencies. We chose some numbers. You've got to 3 pick points to compare on the same basis, 77-degree 4 rise, 64.3 gallons per day. 5 If you move any of these numbers, you 6 literally just take the comparison and you move it 7 down and up the scale. You very likely don't change 8 a thing as to how Product A compares to Product B. 9 What you do do is make all the water 10 heater manufacturers test every single water heater 11 again, determine a new energy factor, spend a lot of 12 time and money, new energy guide labels. 13 And we did that once on electric water 14 heaters back in 1990 or whatever. And I don't think 15 the industry has recovered yet. There are still 16 people out there who haven't caught up in the fact 17 that therewas a little quantum share in the scale of 18 energy factors for electric water heaters. 19 There is no benefit here. There is no 20 benefit. If Model A is more efficient than Model B 21 under the current testprocedures andyou take it into 22 any given home within the normal range of 23 reasonableness and wherever that usage is in that 24 home, Model A is still going tobe the more efficient 25 product for that consumer. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433217 1 If you're interested in telling those 2 people, "Okay. This is based on 77-degree rise. Your 3 rise is only 50 degrees," that's a state ratio. It 4 holds pretty well. It's linear. And, again, that's 5 how you get to the fringes. 6 The same thing with water usage. If 7 they'renot using 64.3, they're using 50 gallons, it's 8 just a mathematical ratio that holds prettywell. If 9 they're using 120 gallons, nowyou're getting towards 10 the fringe, but it's stillpretty close to an estimate 11 of what their consumption is more than likely to be in 12 reality. 13 But thisdiscussion that somehow this test 14 procedure should tell consumers what the consumption 15 of that water heater is going to be in their home, 16 that's another one you can't win. There may be a 17 consumer that would fit. The rest of them are not 18 going to. So why try? 19 FACILITATOR RABA: Carl and then Charlie. 20 DR. HILLER: We now have analysis tools 21 that can much.more accurately than the DOE test 22 procedure tell you what your energy consumption is 23 really going to be as a function of all the parameters 24 that are appropriate to you, your gallons per day, 25 your entering cold water temperature, your set point 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433218 

### 1 temperature. 2 Those are available. By the way, here 3 theyare: WATTSIMPL andWATTSIM. They are available 4 to -- 5 MR. STANONICK: The price, too? 6 DR. HILLER: They're available to the 7 public. Anybody can get them. 8 It seems tome on this temperature issue, 9 we're mixing two desires. There is a desire to make 10 a recommendation on what people should set their 11 thermostats to versus on what basis we make 12 comparisons. 13 I think the recommendation of what they 14 should set their thermostats to probably ought to be 15 something like, "Set as low as possible to serve your 16 needs," whatever that happens to be for you. If 17 that's 110, so be it absent the Legionnella issue, 18 which is a separate issue. 19 I agree with Frank that if you look at a 20 basis of comparison, the energy efficiency is changed 21 a little bit between 120 and 135, a little less 22 between 130 and 135, but the trend of which one is 23 more efficient remains constant. And so Idon't see 24 any compelling reason to change the number. 25 It's not going to change the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433219 1 recommendation of how they should set their 2 thermostat. That's as low as possible. And you can 3 tell them howmuch energy that is going to represent. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: In the back. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Charlie Stephens. 6 I've been second all of what's been said 7 before. That being said, I do know that we have 8 enough data to show if you were trying to represent 9 reality, given that baths and showers are some of the 10 largest uses in thehousehold of hotwater, especially 11 as some of the otheruses get a little more efficient, 12 there is an inverse relationship between the 13 thermostat set point or the actual temperature of the 14 water in a water tank and the gallons of hot water 15 used per day. 16 I can go into why that is. We also know 17 why. For those of you who want to know that, I'll 18 explain it later. People reallydo know howhot their 19 shower is with a very narrow band. And they'll keep 20 it there, nomatterwhat temperature of wateryougive 21 them to do it with. 22 The thing is I agree with Frank 23 wholeheartedly. This isnevergoing to represent what 

### 24 actual conditionsare out there. We'realreadywithin 25 that band, and it's not going to get a whole lot 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433220 1 better if we start moving things very far. So Idon't 2 see any compelling reason to change the way we're 3 doing things right now. 4 MR. HAAG: Wilbur Haag with A. O. Smith. 5 I support theGAMA position as outlined in 6 the February 10th letter that you all have a copy of, 7 which is no change is justified in the temperature 8 setting or the gallons per day. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 10 Steve? 11 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 12 Electric Institute. 13 Iwould say I think it would be useful for 14 a lot of different purposes if -- again, as I said 15 before, lower temperature and lower daily usage. The 16 decisionby DOE is to stick with the current number is 17 fine, but I would say that, again, a bandwidth 18 approach I think would be very useful such that this 19 is the average, X accounts per day, X temperature 20 setting, X LT in water; however, at the low end, 40 to 21 50 gallons per day, LT of 50 degrees, outlet 22 temperature of 115, just to show people a bandwidth 23 because, again -- and then on the higher range, if you 24 have two hot tubs or something, boom, you've got 25 however many gallons OT, et cetera. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON.D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433221 1 There is a wide bandwidth out there. And 2 I think it would be useful for many people just to 3 say, "Okay. If you have this unit using at these

-- 4 depending on your conditions, depending, again, on 5 what you're using, you're a single occupant, et 6 cetera, few uses, few gallons, versus a high user, it 7 can be useful for consultants of utilities and other 8 analyzers to say, "Okay. Here is the average based on 9 DOE tests. But also DOE says that if you're at the 10 low end of the scale, here is what you're going to be 11 actually using. If you're at the high end, here's 12 what you're going to be using." 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Carl? 14 DR. HILLER: First of all, let me say my 15 bladder has reached capacity. So hopefullywe'll take 16 a break real soon. 17 So far I haven't said anything about 18 gallons per day. So let me say something. ASHRAE 19 90.2 subcommittee for residential energy efficiency 20 standards came up witha lot of data to try and figure 21 out what gallons per daynumber ought tobe used. Our 22 TC 6.6 subcommittee is going to address that issue as 23 well. 24 There is a fair amount of data out there 25 for bothgas and electric water heaters that suggests 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433222 

### 1 that for whatever you want to define typical 2 residential customers, the actual gallonsper daynow 3 are somewhere between 40 and 55 gallons a day, 

### 4 substantially below 64.3. 5 That's a separate issue inmy mind as to 6 what number we use for comparison purposes for a 7 single-point rating. Like I said, the tools are 8 available to tellyouwhatyour energyconsumption and 9 overall efficiency are going to be based on any 10 consumption level now. 11 I think what worries a lot of us is what 12 happened in the 1994 proposal to outlaw resistance 13 water heating where a lot of economic analysis was 14 done ona 64.3-gallon-a-dayassumptionanda 58-degree 15 entering water temperature assumption. 16 The DOE number is not intended for that 17 kind of analysis. It's meant purely to compare A 18 water heater to B. And that will tell youwhich one 19 is more efficient. It won't tell you which one is 20 more cost-effective. 21 So Idon't see any strong reason -- ifyou 

### 22 limit the use of that energy factornumber to compare 23 which tank is more efficient, then there's no reason 24 to change from 50 to 64 or whatever. 25 But we've got to caution DOE in the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433223 1 process not to use that number nor the 58-degree 

### 2 entering water temperature number to do 3 cost-effectiveness analysis on anational basis. You 4 cannot do that. TheDOE procedure andnumbers are not 5 appropriate for doing that. 6 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 7 DR. HILLER: So there are two separate 8 issues there. One is compare Water Heater A to Water 9 Heater B. The other is how you do energy in 10 cost-effectiveness. 11 FACILITATORRABA: Response to that? Tim? 12 MR.BERNARDOWSKI: Yes. Carl, I thinkyou 13 missed part of the coin. I was thinking about the 14 discussion we had this morning on the first-hour 15 ratings, where: What is it meant to be used for? It 16 was meant to be used to group the water heaters 17 together, but it's also being used for size. 18 90.2 brought that whole issue up, not 19 because it's critical to the energy cost budget method 20 in 90.2, but because the number stays the same no 21 matter how you do it. But because people were using 22 the 64-gallon number todesign, I think there are some 23 valid reasons. 24 I agree with Frank that you just move the 25 scale one way or the other. My concern is similar to 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433224 1 this first-hour rating, similar to the 64-gallon. 2 When I look at the temperature things, I get some 3 analysis from somebody, from a lab, real good analysis 4 on hot water heaters. 5 What should you base the set point 6 temperatures at? A hundred and thirty-five degrees. 7 Why didyou do that? Because that's what the DOE test 8 procedure does. Sonow I've got to go back and try to 9 workwith thosenumbers tomake them something useful. 10 I see that a lot where folks are facing 11 different things that they're doing in some of the 12 numbers used in these test procedures. And that's why 13 I would like to see them push towards something that 14 is more realistic. That was my basis. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 16 I tell you what. Let's try to wrap this 17 up sowe can take abreak. Comment overhere, please? 18 MR. BEGOSKE: Tim Begoske, Effikal 19 International. 20) We agree with GAMA's position on this. 2:L And I have some rental properties with anti-scald 22 devices on the showers, set at 110 degrees Fahrenheit. 23 I also set my water heaters at 120 degrees. And the 24 tenants in those locations turn that water heater up 25 because theydo not have enough hotwater to take care 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433225 1 of their needs. Those are new appliances that were 2 properly calibrated and set. ;~3 These are performance issues, not

a liability issues. We should promote anti-scald 5 devices for the homes so that we can control the water 6 temperatures or maybe at the outlet of the water 7 heater. We have to have higher temperatures in that 8 water heater to supply the needs of the users of the 9 appliances. 10 FACILITATORRABA: Thankyou. Good point. 11 Anything further? 12 (Noresponse.) 13 FACILITATORRABA: I'll invitea 15-minute 14 break at this time. Maybe we can come back to it, but 15 we should also think about pressing on to heat pump 16 water heaters and definitions. They are all good 17 comments. We certainly appreciate the time. See you 18 back at 3:00 o'clock. 19 (Whereupon,the foregoingmatter went off 20 the record at 2:45 p.m. and went back on 21 the record at 3:02 p.m.) 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Let's go on with our 23 discussion on heat pump water heaters and the. four 24 proposed definitions. If there are other pressing 25 issues, we can come back. Put them on the table now 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433226 

### 1 and comeback in just alittlebit, rightnow the item 2 of thedefinitions of heatpumpwaterheaters, add-on 3 heat pump water heaters, integral heat pump water 4 heaters, solar water heaters, and heat pump water 5 heater storage tanks, a lot to look at there, the 6 questions being just summarizing the agenda there, 7 again bounces off the "Federal Register" notice 8 inquiry here. 9 Does the current testprocedure allowthe 10 resistance elements to activate? Should alternate 11 draw schedule be used? Will the energy factor be 12 Affected if there are alternate draw schedules? Are 13 anyof the proposed definitions useful? 14 We'd like to open the floor forcomments, 15 please. Carl? 16 DR. HILLER: Let me address the 17 definitions issue for a second here. Iwasprobably 18 the primary person who brought that issue up to the 19 front in 1994. 20 The issue there iswhenDOE wasproposing 21 the resistance water heat, it changed a bunch of 22 definitions to help facilitate that process. Right 23 now the requirements to test are a remote-type heat 24 pumpmust be testedonwhat, a50-gallon or 52-gallon 25 tank. Ithink it's 50-gallon. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433227 1 MR. STANONICK: Yes, nominal 50-gallon. 2 DR. HILLER: Nominal 50-gallon tank. The 3 revised wording had to be retested on the 50-gallon 4 heat pump water heater storage tank. That in itself 5 wouldn't have been so bad, but then they created a 6 definition of heat pump water heater storage tank. 7 And that definition was heat pump water 8 heater storage tank is a tank that is intended solely 9 for the purpose for use on a heat pump water heater 10 and is not functional without the heat pump water 11 heater present. 12 The problem with that is there is no such 13 tank. And, therefore, you cannot test the heat pump 14 water heater. By the definitions they use, it was 1i impossible to use the test. 16 What do we do about that? 17 FACILITATOR RABA: What do we do about 18 that? Suggestions? 19 MR. STEPHENS: Question. Were you 20 speaking specifically about add-on, under the 21 definition of add-on, or -- 22 DR. HILLER: I'm talking specifically 23 about the definitions that DOE had proposed. They 24 proposed for add-onheat pump water heaters that they 25 had to be -- they changed the wording. Instead of 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433228 

### 1 just a 50-gallon tank, theyhad tobe a 50-gallonheat 2 pumpwaterheatertank. Theycreatedanewdefinition 3 of heat pump water heater tank to be one that could 4 not function without the heat pump water heater. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Iread, Ithink, some 6 ofyour comments and someof the other literature that 7 was there. It seemed to me that you kind of had two 8 types. There was either an integral device that came 9 as apackageunit or there was a device that couldbe 10 added to a tank, to a storage tank, one or the other. 11 And none of the definitions as they were 12 proposed made any sense tome either. 13 DR. HILLER: Let mepropose a solution to 14 that. There's no reason to require that especially 15 remote heat pump-typewater heaters be tested only on 16 heat pump water heater tanks. Just test them on the 17 50-gallon tank and be done with it. 18 They'redesignedtoworkonanytanks that 19 have the adequate control circuits to make it 20 function. And, indeed, you could use them on even a 21 gas water heater if the heat pump happened to come 22 with thermostats, like some of the earlier versions 23 did. You couldhave a totally different tank. 24 So there's nothing unimportant for the 25 purposes of defining the test procedures to require 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433

I ,229 1 that it be a, quote, "heat pump water heater tank" or 2 to have any special definition of what that tank is. 3 Take that out. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Brian? 5 MR. DOUGHERTY: Brian Dougherty, NIST. 6 I agree with Carl. The definitions for 7 solar water heater andheat pumpwater heater storage 8 tank should be eliminated from the test procedure. 9 The comments were in favor of that, and they make 10 sense. 11 Unless someone has an opposingview, that 12 would be my recommendation. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Someone to keep them 14 in? Frank? 15 MR. STANONICK: No. I'm more interested 16 in clarifying something. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Sure. Go ahead. 18 MR. STANONICK: We've been using what we 19 refer to as a standard test tank. And for the test 20 procedure foradd-on heatpump, I thinkyouneed that. 21 You need to define what it's going to be connected to 22 because you're trying to test. Again, it should be 23 tested all on the same basis, which would mean the 24 same tank. 25 Now, I agree that, all of a sudden, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433230 1 calling that a heat pump water heater storage tank 2 gives it some different connotation that I think was 3 never intended. 4 The idea is that when you run the test, 5 this thing is intended to be hooked up to a tank in 6 the field. So you need what I call standard tests. 7 And that should be part of the procedure. But Idon't 6 think you need a separate definition for that. 9 DR. HILLER: Energy factor rating. 10 MR. STANONICK: Right, right. And then 11 the other thing as far as what's here as far as 12 integral heat pump water heater, I think it would be 13 better if you just called that a heat pump water 14 heater with tank. 15 I mean, I realize you're thinking of the 16 type of unit where the heat pump sits right on top of 17 the tank and the exchanger goes right down in the 18 middle, but as this is defined,you would preclude if 19 a manufacturer chose, for Lord knows what reason -- 20 let's say he chose to sell as a package a heat pump 21 with a specific tank. I'm going to make one up here. 22 Let's say he had an add-on unit but he 23 wanted, forhispurposes, that manufacturerwanted, to 24 sell it withan 80-gallon super deluxe insulated tank. 25 Okay? And that was his selection of how he was going 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433231 

### 1 to go tomarket with that product. 2 That product should be tested that way. 3 But Ithink todo that, yourdefinition shouldaddress 4 just heat pump water heater with tank, however that 5 tank comes with the unit, to distinguish the one that 6 is clearly sold and marketed to be hooked up to 7 whatever tank is out there. That one is going to get 8 testedwiththe standard testing because the real tank 9 is undefined. 10 But intheothercircumstance, I think you 11 at least need to allow that possibility. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Frank, Charlie Stephens. 13 How many have you tested or how many 14 different ones have you tested? 15 MR. STANONICK: There's only two rated in 16 our directory. We're down to one. The DEC unit, 17 which wouldbe the integral, and the CrispAir, that's 18 the add-on. 19 MR. STEPHENS: And the main difference 20 between those two is that one of them circulates water 2:L and the other one circulates refrigerant to the tank. 22 MR. STANONICK: Yes. 23 MR. STEPHENS: So one of themprettymuch 24 is integral. It doesn't work without being able to 25 circulate the refrigerant to its tank. And the other 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433232 1 one is more of the add-on type that we have been 2 talking about. 3 - Do you foresee based on how you tested 4 those other configurations that might show up that 5 would complicate our definition? 6 MR. STANONICK: Not in

-- 7 MR. STEPHENS: Maybe Carl could answer, 8 too. 9 MR. STANONICK: Carlprobablyhas abetter 10 sense than I have. Not so much other configurations, 11 but I do foresee where there might be market 12 influences where a manufacturer might say, "Iwant to 13 sell this," quote, unquote, "add-on," like I say, 14 "with an 80-gallon superiorally insulated tank" 15 because, first of all, you'd probably get a better 16 first-hour rating. Imay actuallyget a betterenergy 17 factor supplying the tank, as opposed to the 52-gallon 18 standard test tank. 19 There maybe reasons why he would want to 20 do that. Granted, he's raised the cost of his 21 product, but those are market considerations. 22 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller from EPRI. 23 Lookingat the kinds ofwaterheaters that 24 were out there, heat pump water heaters, the industry 25 has had exactly that kind of tank before they took it 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433233 1 off the market. They had what was really a 2 remote-type heat pump water heater with a water pump 3 in it, but they only sold it with a specific tank. 4 And it had special plumbing fittings on it to connect 5 a certain way. 6 You could have taken the heat pump water 7 heater and used it on anybody's tank, but they 8 wouldn't sell it that way. They only sold it with the 9 tank. And that was classified in the GAMA directory 10 as a with-tank as the end result, and that's the way 11 it ought to be. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So if it's marketed 13 that way, I can concur it should be tested that way. 14 FACILITATOR RABA: Carl Adams? 15 MR. ADAMS: Carl Adams, DOE. 16 I don't have the test procedure here in 17 front ofme, but I thought Iremembered that there was 18 a provision in there that you only used the specified 19 tank if there wasn't a tank provided with the heat 20 pump. 21 MR. STANONICK: That's probably correct. 22 I was just reacting to the definition that's here of 23 integral heat pump water heater that's been proposed 24 that says "an air to water heater heat pump integral 25 with an insulated storage tank." To me that has a 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433234 

### 1 specific meaning,as opposed to just aunit that gets 2 sold as apackage. 3 MR.ADAMS: Right. Butwhat Imean is an 4 add-on heat pump which is not that integral. 5 MR. STANONICK: Right, right. 6 MR.ADAMS: Ithought that forthe add-on, 7 that therewas aprovision in the test procedure that 8 you used in

-- 

### 9 MR. STANONICK: In the proposed one? 10 MR.ADAMS: Well, Iwas thinking itwas in 11 the existing one. Idon't remember the proposed one. 12 MR. STANONICK: Idon't remember either. 13 MR. ADAMS: -- that you only used the 

### 14 specified tank if the heatpump, the add-onheatpump, 15 didn't come with its own tank. 16 DR. HILLER: Ithink thepoint that Frank 17 is trying to make is it's really with a tank or 18 without a tank. Integral has a specific meaning of 19 the two are not separable from each other. And that 20 really is unnecessary. It shouldbe either soldwith 2: a tank or not sold with a tank. Integral means 22 specificallyphysically integratedandnot separable. 23 MR. STEPHENS: Carl, Charlie Stephens. 24 Isn't it true that CrispAir makes 25 recommendations for family size and size of storage 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433235 1 tank that can best be mated with it so that any one 2 specific tank that they recommend that

-- 3 DR. HILLER: As an add-on unit. 4 MR. STEPHENS: -- that that's an add-on 5 unit that doesn't come with a tank necessarily? It 6 simply makes recommendations on how to size the 7 storage tank? 8 DR. HILLER: I don't think there's a big 9 issue on these definitions. The olddefinitions were 10 adequate. The new definitions weren't. Go back to 11 the old definitions, andwe make the problem go away. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Does your silence mean 13 agreement with that? 14 DR. HILLER: There are a couple of other 15 important issues related to this stuff, though. One 16 that you didn't mention but I think is important to 17 bring up is how you plumb a remote-type heat pump 18 water heater to its tank. 19 The most recently proposed wording says 20 remote heat pump water heaters get hooked with, what, 21 eight-foot-long rubber hoses uninsulated, Frank? I 22 think it says something like that. I think

-- 23 MR. STANONICK: Something like that,,yes. 24 DR. HILLER: I think that's really 25 inappropriate. What I think the thing needs to say 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433236 1 is, "Install in accordance with the manufacturer's 2 recommendations" because you wouldn't want the heat 3 pump water heater manufacturers to provide all the 4 plumbing fittings because there's such a variety of 5 tank sizes. That would just drive the cost up. 6 Most of them don't provide the plumbing 7 fittings,but theydoprovide recommendations on, say, 8 "Don't hook up more than two feet away" or "Go this 9 way." They don't say anything about eight feet long 10 uninsulated hoses." 11 Uninsulated would be stupid, for one 12 thing. Nobody would say, "Useuninsulated fittings." 13 You've got to insulate these. They're basicallypart 14 of the tank. Those lines are part of the tank. 15 MR. STANONICK: Carl, I think actually 16 what it may say is that you do the eight-foot -- you 17 follow the manufacturer's instructions. And if he 18 doesn't provide any,youdo the eight-foot. It may be 19 something on that order. 20 DR. HILLER: Well, see, that's the 21 problem. In 1994 the proposal didn't say that. 22 MR. STANONICK: Okay. 23 DR. HILLER: And so we need to have the 24 clause in there that says, "Install in accordancewith 25 the manufacturer's recommended insulation 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433237 1 instructions." If they don't recommend it, then use 2 eight feet uninsulated rubber hoses. That will drive 3 them to make the recommendations is what it will do. 4 FACILITATORRABA: Go ahead. Stan, doyou 5 have a comment? Speak up, please. 6 MR. LIU: We evaluated your comments, 7 asking your written comments, during the open comment 6 period. We saw your recommendations. So essentially 9 itwill be changed if nobody elsehas anotheropinion. 10 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you very much. 11 You mentioned other issues. Do you have 12 some others to bring up along these same lines? 13 DR. HILLER: That brings us to the draw 14 pattern that should be used under the energy factor 15 test rate. I can show some viewgraphs on that 16 subject. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Is this a new agenda 18 item? 19 DR. HILLER: Well, it's part of that 20 subject matter you brought up. One of the issues was 21 the drawn pattern energy factor. 22 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. 23 DR. HILLER: And we've got some science 24 here. We can show what the arguments are. 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Is this a good time to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433238 1 pick this up now? Let's take a look at this. Go 2 ahead. 3 DR.HILLER: Again, fromour test data, it 4 turned out that all 16 of our tests -- we flippedback 5 and forth between resistance and heat pump water 6 heater usage. We used all the data on resistance 7 water heaters and heat pump water heaters. 8 And we used the smallest commercially 9 available heat pump water heater that has ever been 10 built and is ever likely to be built. The reason for 11 that is they don't make compressors much smaller than 12 that. 13 You don't need a heat pump water heater 14 even that big to serve the loads adequately, but you 15 can't make one any smaller because those compressors 16 don't exist. 17 And here is the percentage of annual 18 energy consumption, electric energy consumption, due 19 to the resistance elements versus total. Let me 20 explain this thing. This is not percentage of hot 21 water produced. This is the percentage of energy 22 consumption. 23 Here's that 124.3-gallon-a-day customer. 24 That's 697. Six ninety-eight was 83 gallons a day or 25 .76 gallons a day. Six nine-six was 83 gallons a day. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433239 1 The percentage, the maximum percentage, of total 2 energy consumption we ever saw was 27-28 percent. 3 Most were down less than that. 4 The percentage of water heating done by 5 the upper element is roughly half that because the 6 heat pump water heater has an efficiency that's twice 7 that of resistance elements. So the percentage of 8 energy consumption represented by the element is a 9 largerpercentage than thepercentwater heatingdone. 10 What this is saying if you work out the 11 math, this is like 16 percent. And all the rest of 12 these are less than ten percent of a water heated on 13 an annual basis is done by that upper element or for 14 backup heat, to defrost, low ambient temperature 15 conditions, or whatever. It's all lumped in there 16 together. 17 If you try and modify the 18 64.3-gallon-a-day, 6-equal-drawtest somehow by making 19 it one big draw and then a couple of little draws or 20 whatever such that the upper element would kick on, 21 what happens is once you kick the upper element on, 22 you cannot meet the 10 percent number, just by ever 23 kicking it on. 24 Anotherwayof saying that is, in reality, 25 in the field, the upper elements only come on once 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433240 1 every four or five days, even with these small heat 2 pump units. Theydon't come on every day. And trying 3 to create a draw pattern that makes them come on 4 during the test, therefore, cannot possibly represent 5 the right percentage energy consumption for hot water 6 delivery, not possible to do that. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Other comments or 8 questions? Frank? 9 MR. STANONICK: In a letter that we sent 10 in that's in your packets, the last page there, we, in 11 fact, tried to do that. We did have ETL get a heat 1:2 pump water heater and try some different draw 13 schedules. 14 One draw schedule we ran 21.4 gallons at 15 the beginning of each hour for the first 3 hours to 16 see if that might do it. It didn't do it. The 17 element didn't come on. 18 Then we did a schedule that in the first 19 hour we ran 21.4 gallons, the next hour 10.7, let it 20 sit for 2 hours, in the 5th hour went to 21.4, and 21 then the 6th hourwent to 10.7, kind of abinodal kind 22 of a usage pattern. And, again, the upper element 23 never came on. 24 . We didn't go much past that because

-- 25 well, it seemed like the only other choice would have 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433241 1 been to say, "Okay. Let's dump 64 gallons in an hour 2 and see what happens." But that isn't particularly 3 realistic. 4 DR. HILLER: To make it come on, you're 5 driven to emptying the tank. 6 MR. STANONICK: Yes. So, in any event, we 7 haven't been able to identify ausage or draw schedule 8 that, in fact, would make the upper element come on. 9 Carl seems to have some information to explain why 10 that's so. 11 But, nonetheless, I guess we do have the 12 concern, as was shown there, that in terms of the 13 consumption of thatproduct, somewhere on the order of 14 20 percent, give or take, of the consumption does 15 occur through the resistance element. 16 Test procedures today don't account for 17 that at all. And I think we -- 18 DR. HILLER: It's more like ten percent. 19 For a 64.3-gallon-a-day average consumption level, 20 it's 10 percent or less. The big numbers were the big 21 consumers. They were way above 64.3. They were 70, 22 80, 120-gallon tanks. 23 MR. STANONICK: All right. But I guess 24 I'm also thinking at least some older field studies 25 that suggested it was in that area of 15-20 percent. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433242 1 In any event, our position still is that it's not 2 insignificant. 3 There is some significant portion of the 4 consumption of that product that occurs through the S resistance element, not through the heat pump. And 6 this procedure -- there's no factoring that in right 7 now. 8 Obviously if we had some way to do that, 9 we would have included it in our letter, but we don't. 10 FACILITATOR RABA: Cananybodyadd to that 11 or lead us in direction to the group? Go ahead, 12 Charlie. 13 MR. STEPHENS: Frank, based on what you 14 and Carl have just told us, is there some way that you 15 could, given that we can't accurately reflect reality 16 17 MR. STANONICK: Right. 18 MR. STEPHENS: -- for every household in 19 America, is there a way that you couldmathematically 20 calculate, basically measure the energy use of the 21 heat pump unit and then penalize at some fixed amount 22 for the fraction of the time? 23 MR. STANONICK: I'm sure you could, yes. 24 MR. STEPHENS: Assume that everyheatpump 25 out there if they face the same draw schedules that 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433243 1 this ugly family put it through that they'd all have 2 a similar kind of energy performance? Mathematically 3 can we do that? 4 DR. HILLER: This is the very reason. 5 These kinds of issues are the very reason we created 6 this computer code. This computer code does a full 7 transient analysis second by second basis 355 days a 8 year. 9 There are all the appropriate parameters 10 any way you want to enter them, entering cold 11 temperature, entering load temperature, enteringheat 12 pump water heater source temperature, varying draw 13 patterns from zero gallons a day to 200 gallons of 14 day, whatever you want to put into it. And it will 15 tell you what the energy total consumption is, how 16 much of it is due to heat pump versus upper element 17 versus lower element, et cetera. 18 You can't do that with an average single 19 number test procedure. You have to use a 20 sophisticated program to do that. That's why we 21 created the tool. It is not possible with a single 22 energy factor rating number to make any kind of a 23 procedure that will do that. 24 MR. STEPHENS: Do what, though? 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Excuse me. For the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433244 

### 1 record, this is audio, not video. Could you please 2 state what the "this tool" is? Thank you. 3 DR. HILLER: WATTSIM computer program. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: WATTSIM computer 5 program? 6 Now, question back here. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Iguess I'd still have to 8 goback to saying: What? Iguess if Iwanted to know 9 given a set of conditions that I understood well 10 enough exactlywhat the consumption would be, then I 11 would have to use that? 12 Again, remindingeverybodythat we're not 13 trying to figure out reality here, we're only trying 14 toget aconsistentway to test onepiece of equipment 15 against another one consistently. 16 We really Ithinkdo need to come upwith 17 some kind of a test procedure-basedway to rate these 18 products similarly totheway other products are rated 19 but recognizing that they have this funky feature. 20 DR.HILLER: Again,Carl Hiller from EPRI 21 speaking. 22 Theproblemwith trying to do that is the 23 DOE test procedure is based on average consumption. 24 Andunderaverage consumption,whetheryou haveaheat 25 pump or a water or whatever, the upper element does 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)2344433245 1 not come on under that. It only comes on under the 

### 2 extremes. So anyprocedure that is designed basedon 3 averages cannot reflect the extremes. 4 FACILITATOR RABA: Frank, you had your 5 hand up? 6 MR. STANONICK: You're talking about the 7 daily situation. But the information does indicate 8 that on the average, whether it's monthly or annual, 9 on the average, the consumption of that heat pump 10 water heater, there is, again, I'm going to say, a 11 significant portion of the energy consumption that 12 goes through the resistance element, not the heat 13 pump. 14 Now, the fact that it isn't daily, I 15 recognize that, but it seems to me that -- I'll just 16 make up a number. Let's say if it were just a ten 17 percent adjustment factor in the annual consumption 18 number, that would still be more reflective of the 19 average use because the average use is not that all of 20 the consumption of that water heater goes through the 21 heat pump. That's not the case, and we know that. 22 Now, whether the number is 10, 15, or 20, 23 that's something that can be researched and somewhat 24 I'm sure debated. But we still believe there should 25 be some kind of mathematical adjustment there. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433246 

### 1 DR. HILLER: Let me throw out another 2 thing here. Recognizing that the WATTSIM computer 3 code is a complex code that the average person is not 4 going to use, we've created what's called the 5 WATTSIMPL computer code. 6 What this does is it takes the DOE energy 7 factor test information and knowledge of the test 8 conditions and the energy factor rating results, and 9 that calculates the heat loss characteristic for a 10 given tank or a given energy factor rating. 11 Then,knowing thatUA factor forthe tank, 12 as it were, you can calculate the energy efficiency 13 under any other set of conditions, gallons per day, 14 changes in entering water temperature, changes in set 15 point temperature, et cetera. 16 The waywe doheat pumpwater heaters, we 17 have performancemaps. Both of theseprograms have a 18 performancemapof theheat pumpwaterheater thatyou 19 have to either create or get from the manufacturer. 20 And then in the simplifiedprocedure, the 21 worst case scenario pretty much is that any 2:2 consumptionabove 75percent of tankvolume is doneby 23 the resistance element. Andbelow that isdone bythe 24 heat pump. That's the worst case scenario. This is 25 very simple. Anybody can pick this up. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433247 1 What we give them in terms of the energy 2 efficiency and energy consumption in the heat pump 3 water heater cases, we, therefore, give you a range. 4 One range is all the water heating that's done by the 5 heat pump. The other range is only 75 percent of tank 6 volume as done by the heat pump. 7 So if you have 200 gallons per day 8 consumption andyouhave a 10-gallon tank, 7.5 gallons 9 is done with a heat pump. And the rest is done with 10 a resistance element. 11 If you have a 100-gallon tank and 50 12 gallons of day consumption, then none is done with the 13 resistance element. So there is a range that you can 14 look at for energy consumption with these simple 15 models that is in the right range. 16 But, really, there's no predictor on what 17 anygiven customer will getbecause it's a function of 18 exactly how they use hot water. They could have the 19 same total gallons per daybut have it spread out, as 20 opposed to clustered, have it spread out. Theywon't 21 trip on the upper element. 22 Even the smallest heat pump water heater 23 is capable of heating 300 gallons a day,waymore than 24 you need. Whether or not you kick on the element is 25 a function of how clustered your water draws are. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433248 1 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. Charlie Stephens 2 again. 3 Iguess we recognize all of that. All you 4 have to do is size the storage tank large enough And 5 you'll probably for any given group of people avoid 6 ever tripping the heating element. 7 However, Idon'tknow that that's going to 8 be sized that way. And I guess my recommendation 9 would simply be for learned people -- and that might 10 involve NIST and any number of other -- Frank, you 11 know,you all get together and figure out what penalty 12 per se -- I don't like to use that word, but what 13 resistance element penalty might be appropriate to 14 apply to any given installation to recognize that in 15 some installations, you're going to trip the element 16 in a small percentage of the time. 17 And it just gets applied as equivalently 18 as we can to all the different types of heat pump 19 products that might be out there such that it will 20 penalize their energy factor a little. But, again, 21 given that you're starting almost two, more than two, 22 it's not going to be a terrible number, I wouldn't 23 think. 24 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller speaking again. 25 Let me translate what you just said. If 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433249 

### 1 we had more field test data like the stuff that I 2 showed earlier,we coulddo that. And Iwould love to 3 have that data. 4 You're right. If we had enough 5 statistically valid sampling for all ranges of the 6 country, we got warm air temperatures and warm water 7 temperatures and cold air, you couldprobably create 8 some statistics to the 95thpercentile kind of stuff. 9 It's going to be different depending on 10 geographical locations. Southern climates almost 11 never hit down in the upper element, no matter what, 12 Alaska probably more so than Florida. So there's no 13 one number that is ever going to really represent a 14 national average. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Then I would recommend 16 making it small. Once again, we're not trying to 17 reflect reality here. We're just trying to compare 18 pieces of equipment fairly. 19' FACILITATOR RABA: What does the rest of 20 the group think about that? Tim? 21 MR.. BERNARDOWSKI: Tim Bernardowski, 22 Virginia Power. 23 I think there are some pros and cons to 24 what you're proposing. Puttingmyself in a position 25 of maybe somebody selling an add-on heat pump water 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433250 1 heater, Imight say that if youdo that from my add-on 2 heat pump water heater that comes with no tank 3 designation at all, that you're unfairlypenalizingme 4 because the customer may put that on any type of a 5 unit and you have just no clue at all as to what the 6 number would be for the resistance part of that on 7 there. 8 So I'd say if you go that route, at least 9 for the add-on use, it wouldn't be appropriate to add 10 that penalty on to the add-on units. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Except you really are 12 leaving that in the hands of the person who installs 13 the system and the choice of tank they make for the 14 system. If they choose a bigger tank in order to 15 avoid that penalty, then the consumer is going to get 16 penalized the additional money for that storage tank 17 up front. 18 And I think if you balance that off 19 against some level of savings that might be expected 20 from that investment up front, it's not going to be so 21 radically different than if they got a smaller tank 22 and paid for some electricity for the resistance 23 element once in a while. 24 So I'm not sure the consumer is going to 25 be penalized by not getting the right signal. 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433251 1 MR. BERNARDOWSKI: Well, if I look at it 2 from the consumer perspective, I'm buying the add-on 3 heat pump water heater as a separate item. I'm not 4 buying the tank. 5 If I'm concerned with that, then I should 6 look at what happens when I combine that add-on unit 7 with various types of tanks, maybe using programs or 8 whatever. Ithink it's apenalty that's inappropriate 9 because it's just there's nothing at all designated 10 about what that tank is. 11 You've got touse something for standards 12 for rating the energy on the heat pump water heater. 13 But I just think it would be an unfair penalty to an 14 add-on heat pump water heater because there's such a 15 large

-- 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Did you get up, 17 everybody, okay? Jim, could you share that with us? 13 MR. RANFONE: We agree with him,whatever 19 he said there. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: It's a good question. 21 Go ahead. Thank you for the comments, Tim. 22 Yes, go ahead. 23 MR. RANFONE: I had a technical question 24 on the test procedure. 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Okay. 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433252 1 MR. RANFONE: I got my answers. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you very much. 3 Excuse me for interrupting you. 4 Does anybody else have any comments on 5 this? Jim? 6 MR. LUTZ: Jim Lutz, LBNL. 

### 7 It seems like the number of sales of heat 8 pump water heaters is so small -- I hope that that 

### 9 changes, and I'm sure some other people in the room 10 do, too. But for now and given how much more 11 efficient they are than just by their nature that it 12 seems like you shouldn't even -- the extra fuss and 13 bother of creating a separate test procedure for the 14 number that is sold doesn't seem to be worth it at 15 this point to me. 16 FACILITATORRABA: Anotherview? I see a 17 head noddingback there. Anyother comments on this? 18 MR. STANONICK: Again, so everybody is 19 clear on this, the only reason it's an issue for us 20 is, in fact, because the energy factor that came out 21 of the current test proceduresbecame abasis for DOE 22 to come out with a rule that says everywater heater 23 shouldbe aheatpump water heater. And, in fact, now 24 you're talking about what we maintain is a huge 25 misrepresentation of what will happen in the field. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433253 

### 1 And soJimis absolutelyright. These are 2 not a huge player in the market right now. But if 3 people are going to -- rightlyorwrongly, if theyare 4 going to assume that the testproceduredoes tell them 5 what the thing is going to do in the field and it 6 leads to incorrect conclusions in some people's 7 opinion,ours included, thenactuallywe've got to fix 8 the procedure, then. 9 Because, again, even putting that aside, 10 if this thing is going to be compared to, again, 11 looking at the relative -- you know, this is our 12 measuring stick concept. If it is going to be 13 compared to an electric resistance storage water 14 heater and if the information is there that says, 15 "Well, this heat pumpwater heater, this isn't really 16 the full picture because it doesn't heat the -- not 17 all the consumptionoccurs throughthatmachine," then 18 I think it needs to be fixed. 19 I don't believe its benefits for 20 efficiency need to be exaggerated. They already are 21 well-defined as superior to a electric resistance 22 water heater. But, that being the case, you don't 23 need to overemphasize or over-exaggerate what that 24 product isgoing to do. And right now Ithinkwe have 25 that circumstance. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 

## . .254 1 FACILITATOR RABA: Helpme out. Jim first 

### 2 and Steve, then back to Charlie. 3 MR. RANFONE: Jim Ranfone, AGA. 4 Iwould take the position that if you're

c; 

### going to do this realistically and some adjustments 6 have to be made to the test procedure to account for 7 electric resistance operation, thendo itbecauseyou 8 can't talk out of both sides of your mouth in terms 9 of, "Well,we're goingto try to saveenergy," yet the 10 testproceduredoesn'tadequatelyreflect theelectric 11 resistance usage. 12 And you can't promote the hell out of it 13 andsay it's thebest thing since slicedbread,on one 14 hand, and then when DOE comes along and does an 15 evaluation of minimum efficiency in this case, based 16 on the information that's providedby themarketeers, 17 then Iwould saymaybe this is a small segment of the 18 market now. 19 But ifyoucontinue topromote it as.being 20 all-encompassing, it does provide all the hot water, 21 electric resistance isn't accountedfor, it'sgoing to 22 get a larger market. In those cases, where are you 23 going to be? So adequately reflect the best you can 24 the use of electric resistance to hot water. 25 I don't know howmuch impact that has on 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433255 1 the analysis of overall energy use for heat pumpwater 2 heaters. Is it really going to skew it that much to 3 save ten percent that it doesn't become as 4 cost-effective as DOE has presented it in your 1994 5 "Federal Register" notices? Does the ten percent 6 additional use or accounting for electric resistance 7 skew your analysis that much? 8 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: One thing Iwant to say, 10 again, talking about testprocedures, it seems that if 11 you wanted to draw out that resistance element like 12 Dr. Hiller was saying, you have to do such an extreme 13 test procedure that it has nowhere near any sense of 14 reality. It would have to be one draw at 50 or 60 15 gallons to bring out that upper element for a heat 16 pump water heater. 17 And if you have such a radical difference 18 in test procedures, then I don't think you're really 19 gettinga clear and accuratepicture because fromwhat 20 I've beenhearing, at least 90 percent of the time, it 21 seems, the resistance element is going to come on 22 anyway. And I think at a 90 percent confidence level, 23 that's pretty good. 24 FACILITATOR RABA: Charlie? 25 MR.STEPHENS: Yes. Iguess I find myself 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433-j 256 1 in a position of agreeing with just about everybody 2 who's said anything so far. It leads me to the 3 conclusion that we ought to be able to penalize these 4 things in a rational way that does more accurately 5 reflect their true performance. 6 We have about three dozen of these add-on 7 units in the field right now that are being 8 sub-metered. I don't know if our data so far is 9 broken out to where I can get an estimate of what 10 fraction of the consumption is on the resistance 11 elements. 12 We measured that, but I don't know if I 13 can collect it yet. It's being computer-collected. 14 But if we can, I'm sure we should be able to come to 15 some rational amount that is not going to penalize the 16 heat pump water heaters drastically. I can already 17 tell you that based on what our data is. 18 A lot of ourdata is on 50-gallon nominal 19 tanks out there. And so I know the customers are 20 pretty happy with it. We haven't had any problems 21 that would suggest there's a level service issue. 2:2 So everything seems to be normal. And, 23 yes, they work pretty well. And we've got some data. 24 I think we ought to be able to sit around the table 25 and comeup with somemathematical wayof representing 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433257 

### 1 that for the timebeing given Jim's comment that, hey, 2 there aren't that many of them yet. The damage is 3 minor. 

### 4 ' FACILITATOR RABA: First Carl. And then 5 I saw Steve. You're up, Tim, after that. 6 DR. HILLER: There's a fundamental issue 7 here. Right now we have an energy factor test 8 procedure that's kind of meant to represent average 9 conditions. Do we want to stick to a test procedure 10 that represents average conditions or not? 11 If you try and change the test procedure 12 to kick upper elements on, that is a deviation from 13 average conditions because under average conditions, 14 under the conditions of DOE's test procedure, for the 15 mostpartupper elementsdon't comeonat the average. 16 So ifyou'regoingto change thatprocedure to deviate 17 from theaverage, Iwould argueyou shouldchange them 18 all and deviate. 19 If you look at the difference in cold 20 water temperaturebetweenAlaskaand Phoenix, it's 100 21 percent difference in the energy consumption to 22 provide the same amount of hot water. Whynot deviate 23 in that respect, too? 24 I saydon't start deviating fromaverage. 25 If you're going to have an average, stick to it for 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433258 1 everything. Don't make an exception for one product. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Steve? 3 MR.ROSENSTOCK: Just a comment. You said 4 3-16 is your testing and you're collectingyour data. 5 Do you have any preliminary information? 6 MR. STEPHENS: I'm not in charge of that 7 product. So I -- 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: How long is your data? 9 MR. STEPHENS: It's a two-year project. 10 And it started about seven months ago. So I don't 11 really know how soon we're going to be reducing the 1:2 data to some form that's readable by the outside 13 public. 14 I know these guys pretty well. I might 15 actually be able to coerce one number or one piece of 16 data out and try to help people make a decision. 17 FACILITATOR RABA: Tim, is that

-- 13 MR. BERNARDOWSKI: Tim Bernardowski, 19 Virginia Power. 20 I just wanted to point out in discussing 21 this, this is kind of peanuts compared to the 22 differences we get in the amount of resistance heat 23 depending upon your ambient air conditions on these 24 things, depending onwhere you place things, howmuch 25 of the year it sees too cold to actually do anything. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433259 1 It actually takes the lower element. 2 Yes. Just to keep this whole discussion 3 in perspective, this thing about the upper element is 4 peanuts compared to differences you can see in 5 resistance based on where you put the ambient air 6 conditions. 7 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 8 Frank? 9 MR. STANONICK: Iwas just going to agree 10 with Carl. At this point we're not saying change the 11 average conditions of the test procedures. We tried 12 it. You can't. So don't even bother it. I mean, 13 we're not saying change the test procedure to try and 14 force the electric resistance element to come on. 15 What our position is, then, in the test 16 procedures when you get to the point of estimating 17 consumption, at that point you've got to we believe 18 roll in somehow some factor that says, "Okay. In 19 terms of the consumption of this product, there will 20 be some segment that goes through an electric 21 resistance element which doesn't give you two btu for 22 every one. It gives you roughly one for every one." 23 And, as I said there, whether it's 10 24 percent or 20 percent or whatever the number is, it is 25 some number. And I think it can be reasonably figured 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433260 1 out. 2 FACILITATOR RABA: Carl? 3 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller, EPRI. 4 I would argue that if you start playing 5 that game, then you should open up the whole gamut and 6 put in the 100 percent variation to the water 7 temperature and all the other factors that are really 8 important. 9 Myargument is thatwe've got the tools to 10 do the analysis right, but that's not the DOE test 11 procedure. If you want to know the right number, use 12 the tool. The tools will give you the right number. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: A comment back there? 14 You had your hand up? 15 MR.ABRAMS: Yes. When wewere discussing 16 first-hour rating,we saidvery strictly that we were 17 not trying to create a figure for use in seismic 18 systems, we were just creating a figure for relative 19 comparisons. 20 Are we not getting into the same sort of 21 extrapolation here to try to go from a comparison 22 figure to actual end-use figures? 23 FACILITATOR RABA: Does someone want to 24 respond? Frank? 25 MR. STANONICK: The thing that seems 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433261 

### l different tome iswith the otherwater heaters, this 2 value that we have determined based on average 3 conditions, if you will, tracks when you change 4 conditions in the field. All right? 5 Ifyouhave adifferent temperature rise, 6 again, it's fairly linear proportion. If you have 7 different uses, it's fairly linearproportion. But in 8 the case of the heat pump water heater, the test 9 procedure just doesn't capture today any consumption 10 that occurs through the, if you will, less efficient 1: means. And, yet, data from the field says that 12 happens. 13 That tome is avery different situation 14 versus the situation of, "Okay. Howdoes the average 15 valuewe have selected for the testprocedure compare 16 to the range in the field?" To me it's just a very 17 different circumstance. 18 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. 19 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Andy Lowenstein, AIL 20 Research. 21 It seems like we're having a lot of 2:2 trouble justdealingwithuncertainty. And I'mcoming 23 at this from the field testing, laboratory point of 24 view. One thing I know from experience is that we 25 never try to make corrections to our data when the 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433-d 262 1 measurement error is greater than the quantity we're 2 trying to measure if we're trying to make the 3 adjustment. 4 That's what we're trying to do here to a 5 certain extent. We don't have anygood handle on how, 6 what the magnitude of this correction factor is. And 7 is your statement saying, "Well, we'll find out what 8 a reasonable correction factor is?" 9 I think we all know judging by the 10 practicalproblems involved in collectingthis type of 11 data that there's not going to be any type of a 1:2 consensus as to what a reasonable correction factor 13 is. 14 And until there are more of these units 15 out in the field that it really begins to make a 16 difference, why are we just setting out another area 17 of contention? And why are we in a sense trying to 18 make adjustments that are within our ability, within 19 our measurement error, within our ability to measure 20 the quantities that we're trying to address? 21 Generally what we do, we may know that 22 there is an error in our measurements, but if it's 23 within the ability of our instrumentation to measure 24 it, we leave the data the way it is. 25 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433263 

### 1 Go ahead, Jim. 2 MR. RANFONE: Yes. Jim Ranfone, AGA. 3 Just another comment about trying to 4 normalize the test procedures is basically what the 5 discussion is about. You always have a precedent. 6 Whetheryou liketest procedures,you agreewith them, 7 you don't agree with them, they're the law of the 8 land. And they've been around for a number of years. 9 And there isaprecedent fornormalizing, 10 as we call it. In the test procedures, you make 11 adjustments for over-sizing, things like that, to try 12 toput some semblanceof continuityofwhat energyuse 13 is in the field. 14 Now, again, you may not agree with that, 15 but that's been a precedent. And I think this is 16 another casewhere in the heat pump water heater test 17 procedure, that ought to be felt there, a 18 normalizationprocess. 19 MR. LOWENSTEIN: Well, I'm not arguing 20 against normalizing. 21 Andy Lowenstein again. 22 I'mnot arguing against normalizing. All 23 I'm saying is that you have just as much chance of 24 overcompensating. When you don't know the magnitude 25 of the quantum you're testing for, you have just as 

### NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433264 1 much chance as overcompensating than you are if you 2 left it where it was. 3 MR. RANFONE: Okay. Jim Ranfone. 4 I thought you were going the other way: 5 Don't do anything. So you're saying if you have the 6 data, then make the adjustment. 7 MR. LOWENSTEIN: If you have the data, 8 certainly use the data to make the adjustment. 9 FACILITATOR RABA: A couple more, and 10 we'll go on. Go ahead, Carl. 11 DR. HILLER: Carl Hiller again here. 12 If I understand correctly what Frank is 13 proposing, he's saying run this testunder the kind of 14 average conditions that we'recurrentlyusingand then 15 16 MR. STANONICK: Don't change the test. 17 Just run it the way it is. 18 DR. HILLER: -- and thenmultiplyby .9 or 19 something like that, somehow, some measurement to get 20 that number. The problem with doing that is that .9 21 is not the average condition. 22 That number comes from a non-average 23 condition. And as soon as you open it up to doing 24 that, maybe thenumber is 1.2, not .9. Certainly that 25 isn't going to be 1.2 in Florida. It's not going to 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433265 1 be .9. It's going to be bigger in the warmer 2 climates. It's going to go above the average. 3 It's not a single corrections factor 4 involved here. The higher the entering air 5 temperature, themore efficient your heat pump is. So 6 we're testing this thing at 67.5, entering air 7 temperature, when the average air temperature in 8 Florida is 75. In Phoenix it's 82. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Well, the data I'mgoing to 10 give you is it's 67, all of them. 11 DR. HILLER: It turns out that the 12 correction factor that you would want to apply when 13 you start deviating from the averages, if you're 14 really going to start playing that game, you've got to 15 correct depending on where you are. 16 It's not a single number. I mean, the 17 average conditions are not 67.5 in Florida. The 18 number could be higher or lower. So don't play the 19 game. 20 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead, please. 21 MR. VAUGHN: Jim Vaughn, Vaughn 22 Manufacturing. 23 I think we're getting back to the.same 24 arrangement thatwe heard from theyoungman from DOE. 25 You know, the same thing Carl just said about the heat 

### NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433266 1 pump water heater can be said about the whole test 2 procedure. You take any resistance water heater and :3 take the standard test and move north or south or 4 change the ambient conditions or change the draw 5 schedule, and the thing is invalid. 6 I mean, what we're trying to get here is 7 a standard for testing and not a standard that's 3 supposed to work all over the United States. And I 9 think when you approach it, it ought to be approached 10 on a conservativebasis, just like all the other tests 11 are approached. 12 FACILITATOR RABA: Thank you. 13 A couplemore comments. We should finish 14 up soon. Go ahead, George. 15 MR. KUSTERER: George from Bock. 16 Basically we were here this morning when 17 we were dealing with 50 degrees and 77 degrees, same 18 issue. What have we learned from this morning? 19 Nothing. 20 I agree with Mr. Vaughn. I think that's 21 where we should go. Once we start playing with 22 numbers, that's what you want to do with the 50 23 degrees because you've got 90-degree groundwater in 24 Florida. I sure as heck don't have it in 25 Pennsylvania. But what we need is an average, 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 --*J267 1 something that's workable for everybody. .2 I think the direction that we're going in :3 is extremely valuable. However, there's no consensus 4 of opinion here. There is no direction. I think 5 that's where we should be, not what's best for -- I 6 mean, we've got a level playing field now. Everybody 7 wants to change numbers to suit themselves. 8 Well, I'll tell you what. I'll go home 9 tonight. And if a state trooper on 95 decides, "Hey, 10 I'm going to give tickets at 68 miles an hour," 11 instead of 70,.well, that suits him good. It sure as 12 heck don't help me. And that's what we're doing. 13 FACILITATOR RABA: Other views on that, 14 please? 15 (Noresponse.) 16 FACILITATOR RABA: Well, Iwould say that 17 we certainly accomplished a lot here today in the 18 sense that our purpose was to gather feedback and 19 information from all of you. You all had a chance to 20 speak on these different issues and gave us some 21 dialogue. 22 Before we say go further, we would like 23 to. Is there anything else on the agenda we should 24 cover or go beyond? Go ahead, Steve. 25 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was just going to do an 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLAND AVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433268 

### 1 extracomment. In terms of ifpeoplewantedto submit 2 other writtencomments about this issue or some other :3 issues that were brought up today, do you have any 4 particular deadline for comments? 5 FACILITATORRABA: Thequestion is: Where 6 do we go from here? Bryan Berringer will address 7 that. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 9 MR. BERRINGER: As far as comments, if 10 anybody would like to elaborate on comments, 11 statements made today, offer additional supporting 12 statements or information, we will consider that. 13 What we'd like to do is to request that 14 additional information, that the subject matter be 15 diluted to what was on the agenda today, what was 16 discussed today as far as topics. And don't go 17 outside that scope. 18 I would suggest if it's agreeable that we 19 would look atmaybe having comments by the end of this 20 month, by February 28. And if people don't think 21 that'senough.time, please indicate it's unacceptable. 22 Is there any discussion on that? 23 MR. KUSTERER: Bryan, I think, you 24 suggested earlier in theprogram that 30 days wouldbe 25 the schedule forwritten comments. Iknow that number 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433269 1 was thrown out. 2 MR. BERRINGER: Yes. 3 MR. KUSTERER: I'm not sure it was from 4 you. 5 MR. BERRINGER: No. It's up for 6 discussion. I mean, we want to try and keep a 7 schedule here. We've got to address a schedule to get 8 the test procedures done. We said we'd plan for 9 April. So we'd like to get it as soon as possible. 10 But if you feel 30 days are needed, then I think 11 that's something we can do. 12 Are there any other comments? 13 MR. STANONICK: Thirty days would be 14 better. 15 FACILITATOR RABA: Go ahead. 16 MR. VAUGHN: Jim Vaughn, Vaughn 17 Manufacturing. 18 I have just a suggestion. As my 19 impression of the meeting, this whole business of the 20 testing versus what uses of the numbers of the field 21 have comeup,.there's no question inmymind that it's 22 a very valid observation. 23 I think that DOE has an opportunity here 

### 24 to do us all a lot of good if they could consider 25 Frank's suggestion is that the standardwater heater 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON,D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433270 

### 1 tests would have to have some linear adjustments 2 depending on whether you live in the Dakotas or in 3 Florida or Texas. 4 Why can't DOE take on the job or give it 5 to one of these smart young fellows here and print 6 that linearadjustmentand educate the state andlocal 7 code authorities andthe state and local conservation 8 people so that they canmake the adjustment for their 9 area and then emphasize that our test procedure was 10 conducted in this manner for consistency? We needno 11 better excuse than that. And tell them that in their 12 neighborhood, these numbers need adjusting according 13 to these factors. It would make sense. 14 FACILITATOR RABA: Thankyou. 15 Further comments, please? Steve? 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Bryan, these comments 17 should be sent toyou, addressed to you, or to whom? 18 MR. BERRINGER: As in the "Federal 19 Register" notice, it would be addressed to me or to 20 Sadie Beall, as it appears in the "Federal Register" 21 notice. 22 Based on the discussion, I was going to 23 say thatwe would allow 30 days for acomment period. 24 And that wouldbe -- make itMarch 12th. Idon'thave 25 a calendar in front of me. 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433 -*£3271 1 Is that acceptable to everybody, March 2 12th? 3 MR. KUSTERER: That's a Wednesday? 4 MR. BERRINGER: Yes. 5 FACILITATORRABA: Does anybody else have 6 something to add to our topics today? Go ahead, 7 George. 8 MR. KUSTERER: My final comment. I think 9 the moderator did an excellent job, and I commend him 10 for that. 11 FACILITATOR RABA: Well, I thank you all 12 for being very open to discuss, engage in dialogue, 13 stick to the issues on the agenda. You'vemade my job 14 a lot easier. And I appreciate your time certainly. 15 I seewe have indeed fulfilledourpurpose 16 to gather feedback from you. This has been your 17 meeting. Andwe've gathered a lot of information. We 18 expect more. Thank you very, very much. 19 I would commend to your attention this 20 meeting evaluation form if you'd like. Just fill this 21 out and leave it with Sandy on the way out. I would 22 appreciate that. 23 You know this is part of our newprocess, 24 our process of improvement, to afford more time to 25 discuss, to evaluatebefore a testprocedure does come 

## NEALR.GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-4433---I 272 1 out. And so I appreciate your participating in that 2 as we go forward, as we focus on the future with 3 topics such as water heaters and other, other 4 products. 5 Thank you all for coming today. 6 Anything further from our chairman? 7 MR. BERRINGER: No. I'd just like to 8 thank everybody for coming. It's a livelydiscussion. 9 I think you gave us a better direction on how we can 10 go. 11 Thank you. 12 FACILITATORRABA: Entertain adjournment. 13 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 14 concluded at 3:56 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 

## NEALR.GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. (202)234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 200053701 (202)234-4433273 CERTIFICATE

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript in the matter of: Water Heater Test Procedure Workshop



### Before:

Date: U.S. Dept. of Energy

February 12, 1997



### Washington, DC



### represents the full and complete proceedings of the aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to typewriting. 

# A -ti3 gW j^ Place: