**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication A ccess** 

**Realtime Translation (CA** **RT) system used in the On -**  **Board Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting #9 and is generally**  **unedited. The CA RT**  **sy stem w** **as used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real**  **- time and**  **available to the public on the internet during the meeting.**
**UNITED STA TES**  **AC CESS BOA** **RD RA** **IL VEHICLES A CCESS A** **DVISORY COMMITTEE ON**  **- BO** **ARD CIRCULA TION A** **ND SEA TING MTG #9 SUBCOMMITTEE**  **TELECONFERENCE Thursday** **, October 8, 2014 1:00 p.m.**

> > Goo d afternoon , everybody . Thi s i s Pau l Beatty speaking . We lcom e to th e nint h meetin g of th e onboard circulatio n an d seatin g subcommittee . Before I g o int o m y norma l openin g remarks , fo r an y committe e members tha t were attendin g th e Septembe r ful l committe e meetings , i f yo u haven' t ye t responde d t o tha t e - mai l requestin g approva l of th e draft summary meetin g minutes , pleas e d o so . Th e deadlin e i s Octobe r 10 , an d next wee k we'l l b e sendin g ou t a reminde r e - mail . I' d love to have yo u include d i n th e lis t of peopl e tha t have responde d versu s th e lis t of peopl e tha t have no t responded . Now , goin g bac k to th e subcommittee . OK , a s yo u know , anyon e ma y participate i n subcommitte e discussions . Therefore , n o tim e fo r publi c commen t ha s bee n schedule d durin g thes e - - thi s two - hou r call . CART cha t box? W e d o have th e CART cha t box available , s o i f yo u onl y participate vi ath e CART syste m an d yo u desire to rais e a questio n o r make a statement ,

pleas e ente r i t i n th e cha t box an d we'l l b e monitorin g that , an d we'l l communicate tha t to th e subcommitte e chair . Remembe r whe n you're speakin g to give yo u r name , an d a s a reminde r - - actually , we haven' t se t th e next Novembe r meeting , s o that' s on e of th e issue s o n you r agenda , probabl y toward th e end . S o I can' t remin d yo u abou t th e Novembe r meeting . I wil l introduce thos e i n th e room . Ji m Pe cht , mysel f Pau l Beatty , Ros e Bunales . Rose , wh o i s o n th e conference cal l line ?
> > OK , I wil l d o this . Firs t wha t I se e i n th e cha t room , th e CART roo m i s Jos e Vega , Elen a Vanloo , Marily n Golde n an d Do n Mebius . Now , whe n I cal l you r name , pleas e restate you r nam e an d you r organization . We 're goin g to d o a n audi o chec k of

f of that . Startin g wit h Calvi n Gibson . > > Good . Elen a Vanloo . > > Here , wit h FRA . > > Here , a t BART , California . > > OK . Jos e Vega ?
> > Yes , Jos e Veg a of MTA Lon g Islan d Railroad . > > Th e lin e i s good . Jackso n Xue ?
> > Present , Jackso n Xue , Parson s Brinckerhoff. > > Good . Th e lin e i s good . Marily n Golden ?> > Marily n Golden , Disability Rights Educatio n an d Defens e Fund , I' m

mutin g mysel f mos t of th e time . It' s a bi t nois y here . > > OK . Si d Goldstein ? [N o response ] OK , Si d Goldstei n goin g one . > > I ca n hardl y hea r you . > > Si d Goldstein ?
> > That' s Denni s talking . OK , Blai r Slaughter?
> > Yes , Blai r Slaughte r fro m Amtrak . > > Lin e i s good . Jud y Buckley ?
> > Thi s i s Judit h Buckle y fro m New York City Transi t MTA . > > Meliss a Anderson ?
> > Meliss a Anderso n Acces s Board , an d I' m goin g to have to leav e afte r abou t 1 5 o r 2 0 minutes . > > OK . Do n Mebiu s
> > Do n Mebius , LT K engineerin g service . > > Marsha Mazz ?
> > Denni s C annon . > > Marsha , U S Acces s Board , righ t aroun d th e corne r fro m yo u .> > Denni s C annon , Nationa l Disability Rights Network .

> > Davi d Nelson ?
> > Davi d Nelson , Amtrak . I' m here . > > OK . Steve , thi s i s a questio n fo r th e CART reporter , i s there an y line s tha t yo u nee d boosted ?
> > Thi s i s Steve . No , al l line s soun d good . > > Everybod y bu t Marsha sound s reall y faint . > > OK , everythin g i s goo d fo r th e CART reporter . Blair?
> > Yes ?
> > Turnin g i t ove r to you . > > OK . Hello , everybody . > > Hello . > > I' m actuall y runnin g vi a generato r powe r o n th e Oute r Banks o f Nort h Carolin a righ t now , s o - - [Laughter] It' s a tenuou s process , bu t amazin g technology . OK , firs t off , I assum e everyone' s ha d a loo k a t th e agenda , an d i f there' s an y question s abou t i t pleas e rais e those . Otherwise , I' d like t o approve th e agend a an d move forward . [N o response ]OK , hearin g n o comment , let' s move forward . I ha d a s ite m No . 3 th e

matri x no w i s th e update s fro m th e las t meeting . There' s no t a lo t of updates . There were , obviously , a t th e las t meeting , bu t thi s tim e aroun d i t wa s more cleanin g up , I think , an d som e deletion s o f revie w an d completio n of th e attache d matrix , bu t wha t yo u se e i n item s a s well . Bea r wit h m e jus t a second . I f yo u ca n loo k a t not e numbe r one , wha t I di d becaus e there wa s s o muc h discussio n aroun d th e clea r doorway , o r th e doo r leave siz e fo r rapi d transit , i s I trie d to stat e th e concern s an d left i t a s we woul d like th e industry inpu t fro m doo r an d vehicl e manufacturers t o determin e th e mos t practica l an d reliabl e solutio n base d o n th e issue s we'v e liste d here . I s everyon e O K wit h that ? T o leave i t tha t way ? Anyon e fro m th e Acces s Board ?
> > Thi s i s Meliss a Anderson . I thin k that' s probabl y a goo d wa y t o handl e it . I f there are specifi c question s tha t yo u thin k woul d b e helpful , mayb e we ca n identify thos e before - - i n th e recommendation s tha t are made . > > OK . Th e bi g concer n wa s tha t we heard expresse d wa s i s th e solutio n goin g t o b e tha t th e singl e leave i s 3 2 inche s o r i s there som e othe r reasonabl e doo r syste m devic e o r contrivanc e tha t woul d take care of th e sam e concern . > > Yeah . > > Versu s a doo r failure i s a doo r failure , whethe r it' s go t 32 - inc h leave s o r 16 - inc h leaves . > > Right . I thin k a s lon g a s the y identify wha t th e question s are good . > > OK . OK . Ma y I have th e - - wha t I though t wa s th e ke y issu e tha t whe na doo r fail s o r there' s partia l failure , yo u ca n b e stuc k i n th e

whe n th e recommendation s are mad e to th e board , tha t wil l b e trai n an d have to g o to th e next sto p o r to th e en d of th e lin e o r whatever . S o OK , I wil l draft somethin g u p fo r that . Note numbe r two , we ha d a lo t of conversatio n abou t th e narrowin g of aisleways an d passageways a t th e ca b en d of cars , transi t cars an d there wa s a suggeste d chang e to ad d ca b cars generall y an d M U cars . I thin k that' s probabl y a reasonabl e thin g to add . Tha t i s a n are a of som e conflict , obviously , becaus e i f there i s a clea r pat h u p to tha t point , the n tha t become s th e choke point . An d I have to apologize . It' s bee n dea d quie t here al l day , bu t now there' s dun e buggie s an d al l kind s of thing s goin g by , an d drivin g th e wron g wa y o n th e road , of course , where I' m at . Anyway , I' m not sure tha t we ha d resolve d thi s item , becaus e th e concern wa s affectin g th e clea r view of th e operato r versu s havin g th e clea r pat h throug h th e doors . Anyon e have an y thoughts o n that ?
> > Yeah , thi s i s Denni s Cannon . Th e issu e wa s whethe r we coul d actuall y get , say , a 32 - inc h clea r doo r widt h o n th e end , an d there wa s discussio n betwee n bot h manufacturers an d others abou t variou s configuration s tha t coul d o r coul d no t accommodate that , whereve r feasibl e an d doe s not obstruct th e clea r sigh t of th e operator , an d the n say th e Acces s Board i s aske d to see k specifi c comments o n design s tha t woul d accommodate thi s tha t are practica l o r practicable . > > OK . Dennis , I thin k tha t resolve s th e - - o r gets i t ou t there s o we an d I though t i t migh t b e usefu l to sa y tha t i t shoul d b e 3 2 inche s ca n ge t a reasonabl e answe r o n it . I f yo u don' t have a 32 - inc h clea r pat h to ge t to tha t door , the n havin g th e pat h throug h th e doo rseem s irrelevan t anyway , bu t - - an d I thin k th e languag e now i n th e reg s i s

sort of like that , i f there i s a pat h the n i t shoul d b e th e dimensio n throug h th e doorway . OK , I wil l write tha t u p tha t wa y . > > Are we stil l goin g dow n th e notes ? Thi s i s stil l Dennis . >>Yes . > > I have a questio n o n somethin g I sa w u p o n th e matrix , whic h is , well , i t appears , let' s see , it' s i n I gues s ligh t rail . Th e space , th e seatin g space i s stil l 3 0 b y 4 8 there . An d th e sam e a s o n commute r rail . I though t we ha d agree d to chang e the m al l to 3 2 b y 54 . I s tha t no t correct ?
> > We ll , wha t I have , Dennis , th e wa y it' s stil l liste d i s we have wha t th e existin g is , the n wha t RVA C i s recommending . S o yeah , th e existin g i s 3 0 b y 48 , bu t th e next row down , where it' s th e RVA C recommendations , i s 3 2 b y 54/3 2 b y 59 . The n tha t shoots dow n to note 3 . > > OK . OK . ha d left tha t wa s tha t th e 3 2 by 5 9 i s require d whe n th e space i s confine d o n thre e side s to ensure adequate maneuverin g space , an d I ha d a questio n abou t that , becaus e tha t - - doe s th e overla p of fixe d objects appl y to tha t dimension ? An d of course , we were recommendin g to chang e th e heigh t of th e overla p fo r that . S o I' d> > Since yo u brough t tha t up , that' s a goo d point , note 3 , th e wa y I

appreciat e som e commen t o n that . > > Goo d question . [Laughter] Thi s i s Denni s again . I thin k i t probabl y does , an d tha t migh t b e anothe r are a where we woul d as k fo r specifi c comments abou t ho w tha t affects things . > > OK . > > We 're stil l waitin g for , I think , Bo b wa s goin g to measure som e unde r sea t dimension s fo r u s to fin d ou t whethe r th e 1 2 inche s actuall y worke d o r not . Bo b Reuter . I gues s he' s stil l ou t o r whatever . > > Yeah , h e wa s goin g to g o to APTA an d I thin k try to ge t som e informatio n fro m th e suppliers there . OK . OK . I've note d tha t we wil l as k fo r specifi c commen t o n that . I kno w tha t i f we project a cubi c measure up , obviousl y fro m a provide r standpoint , tha t become s more onerou s tha n allowin g som e overlap . OK , let' s see . I f we loo k dow n i n 5 - B , obviousl y we ha d a acros s th e doorways , an d whil e som e of th e providers , like Metro i n D C I talke d abou t b y movin g stanchion s an d thing s reall y improv e th e congestio n a t th e doorways an d improve th e immediacy o f acces s int o th e car , we ha d commen t fro m othe r place s like BART , I thin k i t was , tha t reall y ove r definin g tha t o r restrictin g tha t coul d create som e problem s fo r ambulatory passengers tha t neede d sort of a safe have n i n a n otherwis e very wid e ope n space . lo t of conversatio n o n rapi d transi t an d ligh t rai l abou t th e pat hS o wha t I di d i s I reworde d thi s to have a clea r pat h dimensio n acros s th e

vehicles . S o th e ide a i s tha t i f we're lookin g a t wha t occurs wit h a vestibule , havin g tha t a t 4 4 inches , we wo ul d have a clea r pat h acros s th e vehicle . Wh a t I chang e i t to i s thi s pat h doe s no t have to b e a straigh t lin e acros s th e doorways . Th e inten t o f thi s i s to ensure peopl e i n mobility device s ca n quickl y mov e ont o th e vehicle , bu t a t th e sam e tim e no t ove r definin g th e ve rtica l stanchion s to th e poin t tha t ambulatory safety i s compromised . Anyon e have an y thoughts o n that ?
> > Blair , thi s i s Marilyn . Wh a t not e are yo u readin g now ?
> > Tha t i s 5 - B , Marilyn . > > Ah , than k you . I thin k - - I d o wan t t o comment . I have to b e o n a speakerphon e here thi s morning . I s i t adequatel y audibl e o r whatever ?
> > Sound s goo d to me , Marilyn . > > OK . We ll , I jus t thin k tha t - - I' m a littl e concerne d abou t th e discussion . I thin k we're tryin g to b e lookin g toward s th e future doing . Yo u know , I gues s we're al l strugglin g fo r th e righ t answer , becaus e we d o nee d adequat e stanchions , bu t we als o ha d discussio n about , an d Denni s ma y wan t t o commen t o n this , fo r example , there' s a n existin g rul e tha t yo u can' t have stanchion s nea r th e doorway . Denni s ca n ref resh , o r th e staff ca n refres h o n th e exact language , an d I though t th e discussio n reveale d tha t th e origina l inten t of th e curren t standard s wa s tha t tha t applie d al l th e an d no t lettin g sort of curren t politica l battle s s hap e wha t we're wa y acros s thes e rapi d rai l vehicles . Now , I acknowledg e tha t it' s perfectl y legitimat e to have a discussio n tha t mayb e tha t wa s wron g an d there sho u l d b e stanchions , bu t I jus t wan t to b ecarefu l abou t th a t . S o I' m curiou s i f anyon e ha s comments o n an y o f that .

> > Yeah , thi s i s Dennis . Th e curren t rul e doesn' t quit e sa y that , an d it' s no t rea l clear , bu t th e issu e here i s tha t ra p i d rai l cars frequentl y have bot h cente r an d sid e platforms , s o i n man y ca s e s yo u wil l ge t o n on e sid e an d exi t th e other . S o yo u wan t to b e abl e to move acros s easily . Now , th e ide a tha t th e pat h does n ' t have to b e straigh t sound s nic e excep t tha t whe n th e cars are crowde d t ha t ca n b e a rea l problem . I thin k tha t th e issu e of havin g th e centra l stanchio n i n there simpl y mean s tha t th e designers haven' t pai d muc h attentio n windscreen s an d jus t insid e th e door . W e se e lots of differen t configuration s here i n DC , whic h have plenty of th i ng s fo r peopl e wh o are semi - ambulatory to gra b ont o whe n insid e t h e door . The y ca n actuall y reac h som e of the m outsid e o n th e pla tform , reac h i n aroun d th e corne r an d gra b a hol d of a stanchio n t h a t i s insid e th e car . S o m y answe r to th e issu e of we n ee d thi s vertica l stanchio n i n orde r to give adequat e roo m assume s t h a t somebod y ca n sort of ge t across , halfwa y acros s th e ca r to g e t to thi s to stanchio n placement , period . There' s plenty of roo m o n stanchion , whe n i n fact puttin g stanchion s b y th e doo r i s actuall y a bette r solution . I thin k tha t th e issu e tha t we're currentl y dealin g with , an d i n kin d of a politica l context , i s purel y a cas e of no t havin g though t abou t th e desig n very well . I don' t wan t to perpetuate tha t kin d of thinkin g tha t says , Oh , we've go t to hav e thes e vertica l stanchions . We 've ha d lots of olde r Metro cars where they've don e that , pu t a vertica l stanchio n righ t i n th e middl e of th e identify . Make s i t very difficult . Not impossibl e to ge t aroun d tha t stanchio n i n th e olde r cars , bu t i t certainl y i s complicated , an d it' s muc h more difficul t whe n th e ca r i s crowded . I reall y thin k tha t we shoul d have a clea r path , th e widt h of th e doo r al l th e wa y acros s th e vehicle , whe n there are doors opposite eac h other . Obviously ,we have doors o n onl y on e sid e of th e ca r tha t doesn' t apply .

> > Dennis , thi s i s Blair . S o I' m jus t tryin g to agai n loo k a t th e - - i f say , 54 - inc h wid e o r 60 - inc h wid e clea r openings , o r wid er , 64 - inch , i f we have doubl e 32 - inc h leaves , tha t end s u p wit h a reall y hug e are a acros s th e ca r wit h nothin g i n it . I s there an y sanity i n goin g bac k to th e 44 - inc h clea r pat h straigh t across , s o i f yo u struc k a lin e fro m th e door , th e wal l of th e car , th e door , an d pushe d a 44 - inc h wid e cubi c measure acros s th e ca r yo u woul d ensure tha t there' s n o stanchion s o r anythin g i n tha t path , bu t i t woul d not preclud e somethin g bein g i n tha t space . Wo ul d tha t serve th e sam e purpos e an d mayb e b e a reasonabl e middl e groun d betwee n hug e ope n yo u have very wid e doors , th e thin g tha t wa s expresse d i f yo u got , space s an d enoug h ope n space ?
> > As fa r a s I' m concerned , I thin k tha t works . I don' t know wha t othe r peopl e think . > > An y thoughts ? Marilyn , d o yo u have an y thoughts o n that?
> > Thi s i s Marily n fro m DREDF . I thin k that' s O K too . I mean , I thin k - - I didn' t sort of mea n tha t yo u have to have a s bi g a space a s th e most gian t doo r i n th e world . Yo u know , yo u have to have whateve r sort of a reasonabl e rapi d rai l doo r actuall y is , tha t space goin g al l th e wa y across . Bu t I jus t thin k Dennis ' poin t i s importan t to capture , whic h i s tha t we are movin g i n a directio n of sayin g tha t i t isn' t i n ou r view of th e RVA C a forward thinkin g desig n to plan t a vertica l stanchio n i n th e cente r of tha t space , a t eac h en d of th e standard desig n rapi d rai l ca r of toda y an d of th e future . > > Marilyn , thi s i s Marcia . I have a question . Have yo u though t abou t where thes e handheld s ge t place d eve n o n th e walls , where the y don' t g o to th e floor? Becaus e fro m m y ow n observation s i t seem s to m e tha t thes e stanchion s are a double - edge d sword . O n th e on e han d the y enabl e peopl eto have somethin g to hol d onto i n thes e bi g empty spaces , bu t they als o

discourag e peopl e fro m movin g toward th e cente r of th e train , whic h i s wha t every drive r plead s wit h the m to do . S o tha t the y don' t bloc k th e doors an d don' t make i t impossibl e fo r peopl e to ge t o n th e train . Regardles s of whethe r they're peopl e wh o us e wheelchairs o r not . S o th e more yo u have thes e handhold s yo u pu t close r to Dennis , I thin k very wel l articulate d th e reason s wh y . th e door , the n it' s no t jus t th e handhol d tha t gets i n th e way , it' s th e bod y of th e passenge r wh o gets - - yo u know , who' s crowdin g tha t door , makin g i t impossibl e fo r peopl e t o ge t on . The y d o th e sam e thin g here i n Wa shingto n wit h th e littl e wall s tha t the y pu t o n eithe r sid e of th e door . Peopl e stan d agains t wit h thei r backs agains t thos e wall s an d make i t impossibl e fo r folks to exi t o r ente r th e train , becaus e the y won' t give way . Thos e are th e peopl e whos e fee t I like to trea d on . [Laughter]
> > Marcia , thi s i s Marilyn , an d everyone , poin t wel l taken . Tha t - - yo u know , tha t i s th e issu e tha t reall y fo r m e I learne d here , an d Gle n fro m WM ATA wa s th e firs t perso n tha t articulate d tha t no t onl y i s gettin g ri d of th e stanchion s goo d fo r accessibility , bu t i t reall y o n an d off th e cars . W e recogniz e i t i s a legitimate , ve ry rea l nee d b y th e genera l public , bu t als o ve ry muc h b y peopl e wit h certai n disabilitie s to have adequat e stanchions . W e have staff a t DRED F wh o are no t wheelchai r users an d are unstabl e o n thei r fee t an d reall y nee d a rigi d plac e t o hol d on . I t can' t b e a strap , i t ha s to b e a ba r an d al l of that .S o tha t ha s bee n th e balance poin t i n th e discussion , an d wha t I fee l goo d

abou t fro m ou r discussio n toda y i s Dennis ' initia l statemen t i n respons e to m y questio n reall y articulate d ho w man y place s yo u have to pu t stanchion s tha t don' t infring e o n eithe r th e helpe d wit h passengers an d lowere d dwel l time , mad e i t eas y to ge t legitimate sort of holdin g o n of th e genera l publi c o r peopl e wit h disabilitie s wh o nee d to gra b on . S o reall y there i s a solutio n here tha t help s everyone . I t - -
> > I n m y view , it' s no t jus t th e stanchions . Fo r example , WMATA ma y b e removin g th e stanchions , bu t they're no t removin g thos e win g walls , fro m wha t I understand , i n thei r newes t designs , an d thos e win g wall s are wha t agai n encourag e peopl e to cluste r a t th e door , makin g i t almost impossibl e fo r someon e usin g a wheelchai r to board . > > Yeah . I s there - - I woul d appreciate assistance wit h comin g u p wit h languag e to expres s that . th e middl e of tha t are a yo u actuall y encourag e peopl e to stan d there . > > Right . > > S o you're actuall y doin g th e disservice b y puttin g those . Th e win g wall s are there becaus e the y use d to b e calle d modesty panels , whic h the y are i n buses , bu t they're there fo r windscree n whe n there' s win d comin g i n th e door , to sort of protect peopl e fro m sittin g there . Now , i n som e of th e 6,00 0 Metro cars , fo r example , the y don' t exis t o n every door . I thin k it' s th e cente r o r eac h end . Anyway , the y have handheld s –
> > On e of th e points the y mad e abou t th e newes t design , Dennis , wa s tha t they're retainin g those .> > Right , th e newes t desig n doe s have the m i n there , bu t I haven' t

> > Thi s i s Dennis . On e of th e thing s tha t i f yo u pu t a stanchio n i n see n th e new one . I t seem s to m e tha t th e cente r doo r i s muc h like th e curren t 6,000 , whic h i s - - I don' t thin k i t ha s th e win g walls , bu t mayb e I' m wrong . > > I t wa s somethin g tha t the y focuse d o n i n a Pos t article . > > Yeah , th e 6,00 0 ha s handrail s immediatel y insid e th e wal l tha t g o - - tha t are vertica l an d horizonta l an d make a righ t angl e curve . That' s th e kin d of handrai l tha t yo u coul d place clos e to th e door , tha t peopl e coul d actuall y reac h whe n they're outsid e an d i t allows the m to continu e hangin g onto tha t handrai l whil e the y move into th e interio r of th e car . Fa r bette r tha n havin g th e stanchio n i n th e middl e of th e aisle , where yo u have to essentiall y cros s ope n space an d bloc k th e entrance . S o I thin k th e issu e of th e 44 - inc h clea r pat h straigh t acros s solve s mos t of thos e questions . Th e othe r issu e i s there are som e - - ha s bee n som e discussio n abou t requiring , we di d i t i n th e propose d bu s rule s tha t require handrail s o n th e backs of seats , seats tha t are no t reclinin g an d don' t pivot , bu t fixe d seats , an d every othe r on e o n opposite side s havin g a hol d tha t goe s fro m tha t handrai l u p to th e ceiling , o r a t leas t u p to a n overhea d roll . Thos e are th e kin d of thing s tha t I thin k hel p lots of peopl e move throug h th e ca r an d to ge t awa y fro m th e door . > > S o thi s i s Marilyn . Sorry , g o ahead . Thi s i s Marilyn . Blair , d o yo u fee l comfortabl e abou t capturin g wha t I sai d appears to m e to b e a consensu s here . I f it' s not a consensus , somebod y shoul d sa y to ge t to it , the n cluste r aroun d i t a s severa l peopl e obviousl y d o it . I thin k wha t Marci a an d Denni s are sayin g i s ve ry agreeabl e t o me , you r number , Blair , seem s agreeable . S o ou r tas k i s to capture that , unles s it' s a dispute here . O f course , therema y b e others a t th e future stage .

I t seem s t o m e tha t we 've articulate d a very sort of vali d statemen t of ho w thi s desig n serve s everybody' s needs . > > Thi s i s Aaro n We instei n fro m BART , an d I thin k th e discussio n ha s bee n good , an d I' m gla d to hea r tha t there' s recognitio n of meetin g th e need s of differen t type s of disabilities . We 've bee n previou s calls , an d I thin k tha t th e proposa l o n th e tabl e i s wort h considering . I' d like a n opportunity to g o bac k an d loo k a t ho w thos e measurements woul d wor k wit h som e of ou r designs . There i s on e othe r nuance tha t I thin k i s importan t whe n th e fina l reg s are drafted , an d tha t i s i n a vehicle , whethe r it' s rapi d transi t o r anothe r ty pe , i f there are particula r doors where th e foca l poin t of a wheelchai r designatio n zon e i s a priority an d othe r doors where there isn' t a designate d zone , perhap s there need s to b e som e accommodatio n of that , of tha t distinction . Th e reaso n I brin g tha t u p i s we stil l ge t som e feedbac k here a t BART i n th e Sa n Francisc o Ba y are a fro m som e subsets o f th e disabilitie s community tha t wan t to se e u s have particula r doors tha t accommodat e multipl e peopl e wh o are i n wheelchairs , s o tha t the y ca n si t together . We 're very sensitive t o that , an d stil l lookin g a t ou r options , an d it' s possibl e tha t we migh t i n th e future have a havin g tha t discussio n i n th e Ba y Area , a s Marily n talke d abou t i n doo r wit h multipl e wheelchai r area s withou t an y pole , potentially , bu t the n othe r doors where there isn' t a designate d zone , where we wouldn' t wan t t o have necessaril y th e restrictio n o n th e pole . S o I agai n than k everyon e fo r th e goo d discussio n o f this , an d I wan t a chanc e t o a t leas t g o bac k an d loo k a littl e more carefull y a t th e proposa l that' s o n th e table .> > Yeah , thi s i s Marily n fro m DREDF . I hea r wha t you're saying , Aaron .

On e concer n I have a s a membe r of RVA C i s tha t I thin k it' s fin e fo r everyon e to d o whateve r researc h the y nee d t o do , bu t th e designs . Th e poin t i s wha t th e ca r of th e future wil l be , an d eve n i f - - I mean , th e Acces s Board' s rule s appl y to ne w constructio n anyway , an d that' s ofte n a confusion . Peopl e thin k the y are a retrofi t rul e o r somethin g like that , an d every rul e th e Acces s Board has , I ca n sa y tha t fro m havin g bee n o n th e board a s wel l a s a n observer , there' s always confusio n tha t - - again , researc h i s fine , bu t i f it' s i n conflict wit h somethin g you're currentl y doin g tha t shouldn' t ni x it , becaus e i t doesn' t require yo u to chang e wha t you're alread y doing . It' s abou t th e future . > > Marilyn , I understan d you r point , an d that' s - -
> > Ca n I jus t make on e othe r - -
> > Th e onl y reaso n I wante d to g o bac k an d chec k som e of ou r dimension s i s no t s o muc h comparin g to wha t th e curren t pla n is , bu t I know tha t a s yo u ope n u p tha t 44 - inc h straigh t pat h acros s it' s possibl e tha t th e pol e coul d interfere wit h othe r importan t poin t of thes e proposal s aren' t ho w i t fits wit h anybody' s curren t accessibl e paths . S o I wante d a chance to loo k a t tha t issue . Wi t h ou r ne w trai n cars , fo r th e firs t tim e we're goin g t o ope n u p th e aisle s t o a n accessibl e dimension , an d I wante d t o make sure we didn' t cu t off path s t o th e aisles . S o that' s th e onl y thin g we wan t to loo k a t to make sure tha t 4 4 i s th e righ t number . Th e highe r tha t numbe r is , th e narrowe r som e othe r path s wil l be , s o I jus t wa nte d a chance to g o bac k an d loo k a t that . Th e othe r poin t I wante d to jus t sa y i n respons e wa s - - sorry . Tha t th e - - al l right , I have to figure ou t thes e notes . I'l l brin g i t u p later . Sorry . G o ahead .> > Marilyn , thi s i s Blair . Jus t s o I understand , s o i f we loo k a t projectin g a

clea r pat h acros s th e ca r a t 4 4 inches , an d th e reaso n I wante d to com e u p wit h som e numbe r wa s to make sure tha t w e ha d a pat h tha t wa s goin g to b e comfortabl y accessibl e acros s th e car , where there' s no t a lo t of definitio n othe r tha n i n som e case s stanchions , bu t to have somethin g to pu t a t tha t t o ensure tha t whe n folks si t dow n an d start designing , tha t they're thinkin g abou t thes e thing s fro m th e very beginnin g an d have a t leas t a number . Now , th e ris k always i s tha t i f yo u pu t a numbe r there , that' s wha t yo u get . Yo u ge t nothin g more . Since we're lookin g a t vehicle s an d I thin k Andre Gagn e pointe d ou t differen t vehicle s tha t are bein g develope d no w tha t have ve ry wid e doorways , u p t o 6 0 inche s o r more , tha t tha t spac e acros s th e ca r ca n b e quit e large . S o i f we wan t to dro p bac k an d

> > Huh . Interesting . OK . Than k you . sa y it' s goin g to b e th e widt h of th e doors across , o r th e clea r widt h acros s I' m O K wit h that , bu t I didn' t wan t to pu t somethin g agains t tha t a s a minimu m s o tha t we make sure tha t we have a smart leve l of accessibility acros s thes e vehicles , s o tha t yo u ca n com e i n an d i f you r cente r platform i n on e statio n an d sid e platform o n th e next , yo u ca n com e i n an d g o straigh t acros s withou t runnin g into a vertica l obstacle . Marilyn . I thin k tha t make s sense . I remembe r th e othe r thing . I thin k i n term s of th e number , I thin k wha t wa s articulated , I' m no t a figure numbe r technica l expert o n th e number , bu t i f Denni s thinks 4 4 i s fine , I don' t know th e bes t wa y to write it , bu t I' m fin e wit h th e number . Th e thin g I wante d to sa y before , it' s reall y two issues , an d the y bot h have to d o wit h consistency . On e i s tha t thes e cars ge t use d bot h whe n a ride r ma y nee d to g o fro m on e - - ente r o n on e platform o n on e sid e an d exi t th e other ,bot h i n tha t situation , an d i n situation s where you're goin g to exi t o n th e sam e

side . S o I thin k th e ca r desig n ha s to b e a s i f you're goin g to g o through . Th e othe r thin g wa s wha t Aaro n mentioned , whic h i s to d o certai n thing s o n som e cars , certai n thing s o n othe r cars , an d I' d love to as k th e grou p fo r people' s thinkin g abou t whethe r i t make s sens e to have a n inconsistency like that , becaus e - - yo u know , o n differen t cars , wha t are th e issue s raise d i f it' s inconsistent , peopl e don' t know wha t to expect ? I s i t a n advantage ? I s i t a

> > Agreed . No , I thin k tha t make s sense , Blair . Sorry , thi s i s disadvantage ? I s there an y wa y t o compensate fo r th e disadvantage ?
> > Thi s i s Denni s Cannon . Th e wa y i t currentl y works i s every ca r i s require d t o b e accessible , an d I though t tha t wha t wa s bein g talke d abou t i n term s of differen t space s wa s differen t doors , rathe r severa l othe r systems , there' s a n internationa l symbo l a t on e en d tha t says "Thi s i s a spac e where we've go t a particula r space fo r wheelchair" bu t th e fact of th e matte r i s tha t th e curren t rul e says a s lon g a s yo u have ope n clea r fl oo r spac e equa l to 3 0 b y 4 8 somewhere i n th e ca r an d yo u ca n ge t to tha t spac e fro m th e door , meanin g i t migh t b e jus t insid e th e doo r o r jus t aroun d th e aroun d th e corner , tha t there isn' t an y requiremen t fo r designate d parkin g spac e - - seatin g space s currently . Th e ide a i s yo u ca n ge t a s man y chairs togethe r a s yo u want , a s lon g a s there' s clea r fl oo r space . I n cars I've ridden , bot h here an d i n Bosto n an d s o forth , yo u ca n d o that , eve n thoug h there' s a spac e that' s bee n designate d tha t migh t have even , i n som e case s i n th e ol d WM AT A cars , ha s a securemen t devic e whic h doesn' t work . It' s possibl e fo r thre e o r fou r peopl e to si t together , jus t becaus e there' s clea r floo r space . I t doesn' t mea n tha t yo u have to have specia l seatin g locations , bays o r whateve r locate d fo r tha t t o happen .Righ t now , I've see n lots of instances , i n fact , jus t th e othe r da y I wa s

ridin g i n a ca r an d we ha d thre e peopl e i n chairs wh o cam e i n th e sam e door . The n we were al l seate d clos e enoug h tha n differen t cars , becaus e righ t no w i n Metro , fo r example , an d to eac h othe r to b e abl e to have a conversation . S o I don' t thin k it' s a cas e of havin g differen t cars wit h seating , s o m u c h a s to have area s where mayb e i n a differen t doo r tha t migh t b e designate d wit h th e internationa l symbo l yo u coul d expect to h ave a littl e more clea r fl oo r space . addressing , I thin k we're fi n e wit h that , yo u know . There' s - -
> > Thi s i s - -
> > Thi s i s Blair . There coul d b e a communicatio n i ssu e there , I guess , i f yo u have multipl e space s an d you're a s a provide r saying , you're advertisin g you've go t multipl e spaces , may b e that' s somethin g tha t yo u woul d ad d to th e internationa l d esignation , tha t says there' s X numbe r of space s availabl e i n thi s vehicl e versu s mayb e th e othe r doorwa y whic h meets th e minimu m re q uirements . > > Thi s i s Davi d Nelso n here . S o probabl y - - well , I've bee n talkin g wit h a lo t of th e - - I've bee n talkin g wit h a lo t of peopl e wit h wheele d mobility device s an d s o forth . It' s very interest i n g th e chang e i n th e trend s tha t I've bee n seein g upo n talkin g to certa i n people , tha t someda y hopefull y there wil l never , eve r have to b e a n internationa l symbo l o n an y typ e of doo r o r ram p o r anythin g like that , tha t hopefull y everythin g woul d b e accessible . I' m jus t bringin g thi s u p i n ord e r to kee p i t i n th e bac k of you r mind , that' s all , tha t on e da y we migh t no t n e e d that .> > Thi s i s Aaro n We instei n fro m BART . Perhap s I ca n provid e a littl e more

clarity of wha t we were hearin g fro m t h e disability
> > Yeah , tha t make s sens e to me . I f that' s th e wa y Aaro n wa s community ou t here i n th e Ba y Area . W e ha d wit h ou r ne w trai n cars planne d to replicat e th e ol d trai n cars an d havin g two dedicate d wheelchai r zone s o n eac h car , on e a t eac h of th e en d disability community wa s tha t the y wante d t o se e a desig n tha t allowe d multipl e peopl e i n wheelchairs to si t together , an d we hav e bee n thinkin g abou t tha t a bit . On e of th e option s tha t we are thinkin g abou t is , becaus e we're addin g a third doo r whic h woul d b e i n th e cente r of every car , possibl y havin g bot h wheelchai r zone s a t th e third doo r wit h n o i t fl oor-to - ceilin g pol e a t all , to kin d of bot h solve th e pol e issu e an d to b e responsive to th e deman d fo r multipl e seatin g spaces . That' s stil l unde r consideration , bu t I thin k th e on e thin g tha t coul d b e considere d i n th e wordin g of th e reg s woul d b e to make sure tha t an y restriction , fo r example , th e 44 - inc h path , woul d onl y appl y t o doors where there are designate d wheelchai r zone s a s describe d i n th e regs , somethin g like that . > > OK . Aaron , than k yo u ve ry much . > > Hi . On e thin g fo r BART , i t migh t b e helpfu l i f h e coul d circulat e som e pres s article s o r whatno t abou t BART' s desig n process . I t migh t b e informative fo r someon e to have tha t an d to see . Tha t i s somethin g I wo ul d jus t note , an d may b e I misse d it , bu t yo u al l ma y wan t to discus s where thi s necessaril y applie s equall y to ligh t rai l an d to heavy rail . > > Thanks , Chris . Aaron , i f I ca n as k of you , i f you've go t doors . Bu t som e of th e feedbac k tha t we ha d ha d fro m th e informatio n abou t wha t yo u guysare doing , i f yo u coul d forward tha t t o m e o r to th e Acces s Board an d the y

ca n pus h i t o n to me . Wh a t I' d like t o d o i s draft u p som e thing s alon g wit h tha t clos e thi s ou t i n th e next meetin g perhaps . > > Yes , I' d b e happ y to . Than k you . > > Great . I appreciate that . OK , i f we ca n move to not e 5 - C , an d that' s sort of i n th e sam e ballpar k of wha t we were talkin g about , an d that' s title d handrails . Handrail s provide d adjacen t t o doors to ai d boardin g an d alightin g passengers , whethe r i n wheelchairs o r ambulatory , ma y b e a t th e 32 - inc h minimu m o r si x inche s les s tha n th e clea r doo r openin g apart , whicheve r i s greater . An d i n th e Septembe r meetin g there wa s concer n ex presse d tha t i f we ha d vertica l handhold s righ t b y th e door , tha t folks woul d congregate b y th e door , an d I thin k whethe r we have handhold s there o r no t there' s always goin g to b e thos e folks tha t are jamme d u p agains t th e door , o r jus t no t bein g very accommodatin g to anyone . M y concern i s tha t i f we don' t have th e ability , an d agai n I' m thinkin g more o n ou r - - fro m th e Amtra k sid e of things , where we're tryin g to ad d handhold s fo r folks to ste p acros s th e gap , tha t havin g handhold s jus t insid e th e vehicl e ca n b e a very wonderfu l thin g fo r folks gettin g in , mayb e les s of a n issu e wit h rapi d transi t where you've go t very goo d platform -to - ca r relationships , bu t there ha s to b e som e comin g togethe r o n that . informatio n an d pus h i t bac k ou t fo r folks to loo k a t s o we ca n Anyon e have an y thoughts o n that? I know tha t th e folks thos e vertica l handhold s steppin g into th e car . An y thoughts o n that ?> > Yeah . Thi s i s Dennis . Vertica l handhold s doesn' t necessaril y mea n i t goe s

fro m fl oo r to ceiling . The y can , i n fact , b e like th e one s i n th e 6,00 0 WM ATA cars , whic h are righ t insid e th e door . They're attache d to th e wall . The y start u p high , they're vertica l unti l about , oh , mayb e 3 0 inche s of f th e fl oor , 33 , somethin g like that , the n the y make a righ t angl e turn an d ru n alon g th e insid e of th e ca r o n th e wall . Yo u have handrail s tha t are immediatel y graspabl e fro m where yo u are , outsid e even , bu t don' t actuall y interfere wit h maneuverabl e clearance inside . Th e issue , you're absolutel y right , al l of th e exhortation s abou t - - incidentally , we have thre e doors o n th e cars i n Metro an d th e announcemen t i s move to th e cente r of th e car . I f yo u move to th e cente r of th e car , you're standin g i n th e cente r doorway . [Laughter] S o th e reality i s wha t yo u wan t to sa y i s move awa y fro m th e doors , no t to th e cente r of th e car . Bu t you're right , peopl e gathe r i n thos e space s regardless . I rid e th e Metro an d there' s plenty of empty seats i n nonrus h hour , an d peopl e congregate righ t there i n th e doo r becaus e the y wan t to b e abl e to ge t of f quickl y withou t havin g to hassl e crowd s an d whatever . S o th e peopl e are goin g to b e fro m Lon g Islan d ha d expresse d concern s a t no t bein g abl e to hav e there n o matte r wha t yo u do . the y electrify , yo u know . [Laughter] > > Hello , Blair?
> > Yes . > > Thi s i s Jos e Veg a fro m MTA Lon g Islan d Railroad . > > Ho w are you ?> > Fine . Ho w are yo u ?

> > Pretty good . > > Al l right . Yo u aske d fo r feedback , yo u sai d o n th e concer n of no t bein g abl e to provid e a vertica l handhol d o n som e of th e equipment . I' m no t familia r wit h th e exact problem , I guess , tha t w e have . I didn' t have a chanc e t o tal k wit h Mr . M aldari to se e wha t th e concer n was , bu t a t th e entrance , a t th e sid e doo r areas , currentl y o n ou r equipmen t we have thes e horizonta l handhold s tha t are mounte d o n th e - - i f yo u g o into th e doo r openin g o n eac h sid e there' s like a smal l wall , like where th e win d screen s are . W e have a horizonta l mounte d railin g tha t yo u ca n gra b whe n yo u board th e vehicle , bu t no t a vertica l mounte d rai l that , I guess , you're describing . I' m no t sure , I gues s wha t th e concer n wa s where w e were goin g to locat e them , i f i t wa s goin g to b e righ t b y th e doo r itsel f o r mayb e two fee t i n th e ca r fro m th e doo r opening . That' s th e part I' m no t sure about , an d I woul d have to follo w u p an d ge t bac k wit h th e RVA C separately . There' s a concer n wit h that . > > Thi s i s Blair . Jose , than k yo u fo r that . I thin k wha t th e concern , th e conversatio n wa s around , one , makin g sure tha t i f there are handhold s the y don' t imped e th e 32 - inc h minimu m of th e space , an d - - bu t als o to , a s Denni s talke d about , to tal k abou t th e controvers y betwee n havin g th e handholds , whethe r they're vertica l o r horizontal , an d dealin g wit h peopl e congregatin g a t th e doors , an d I thin k tha t th e poin t wa s tha t fol ks are goin g t o congregat e whethe r there are o r aren' t handrails , bu t yo u shouldn' t compromis e genera l safety b y rulin g thos e handrail s ou t o r handrails , o r - - I gues s stanchio n woul d impl y the y g o al l th e wa y t o th e fl oor , s o we ca n sa y handhol d o r handrail . Bu t we d o wan t t omake sure tha t where we have the m i t doe s no t imped e th e clea r pathway .

There wa s som e conversatio n aroun d havin g them , I thin k where thi s cam e fro m wa s havin g the m outsid e of th e clea r pat h of th e doo r an d I thin k wha t Fran k expresse d was , no , wai t a minute , sometime s thes e thing s project int o th e doorwa y paths , bu t the y don' t creat e a n obstacl e o r the y don' t violat e th e clea r pathway . S o tha t wa s jus t - - wa s to try to capture tha t s o there wa s n o questio n abou t it . > > I understand , yes . Than k you . Yeah , that' s wha t - - I gues s th e railing s now , i f yo u coul d picture a 50 - inc h wid e doo r openin g now , whic h i s wha t ou r standard i s o n ou r equipment , tha t i f yo u have a horizonta l rai l o n eac h sid e the y ma y slightl y g o inward fro m 5 0 inches , mayb e like a n inc h o r two o n eac h side , bu t the y wil l no t interfere wit h a 32 - inc h minimu m requirement . Now , th e thin g tha t I woul d have to chec k i s th e 4 4 inche s tha t yo u mentione d before to se e i f yo u - - i f we maintai n tha t also . I thin k yo u we re sayin g abou t th e cub e 4 4 inche s wide , tha t i t wil l no t hi t thos e railings , th e horizonta l handrail s I wa s jus t describing , to se e tha t there' s n o interference . > > OK . I appreciat e you r checkin g that , an d I thin k wh a t we were lookin g a t i s i f yo u loo k a t th e 4 4 clea r space an d you r 50 - inc h doo r an d a six- inc h incursio n fro m eithe r - - tota l incursion , thre e inche s fro m eithe r sid e of sort of handrail , tha t wil l pu t u s bac k to th e 44 . Again , there ma y b e vehicle s tha t don' t fal l into wha t we are strictl y definin g toda y a s rapi d rail , mayb e applie s to ligh t rail , where there i s a smal l door , an d we jus t wan t to make sure tha t we don' t encumbe r tha t 32 - inc h minimum . Jus t becaus e you r doo r i s 5 0 o r 6 0 inche s o r whatever , tha t yo u ca n have a n incursio n int o tha t spac e i f it' s a handrai l bu t n o more tha n si x inche s fo r th e tota l widt h of th e door , an d neve r les s tha n th e 32 - inc hminimum .

> > OK . Than k yo u very much , Blair . That' s al l I have . > > Than k you . Th e 44 - inc h i s base d o n goin g bac k to ve stibule s o n cars tha t have vestibules . I plucke d tha t numbe r ou t becaus e i t define s a clea r widt h i n a ve ry well - define d space , where you're comin g i n an d makin g a righ t turn int o a car . S o 4 4 inche s seeme d like a reasonabl e minimu m fo r an y kin d of obstructio n onc e you're insid e th e bod y of th e car , whethe r it' s a stanchion , win d scree n o r a vertica l wal l o r whateve r i t is , tha t woul d imped e th e pathwa y into th e vehicle , o r into a seatin g area . S o tha t wa s th e drive r fo r that . Wh a t I wil l d o i s I' m goin g to chang e tha t to handrails , whethe r vertica l o r horizonta l s o there' s n o questio n abou t that . > > OK . Than k you . > > An d anyon e els e have an y thoughts o n that ?
> > I t woul d b e - - anytim e we ca n se e actua l diagram s an d drawing s an d eve n i f they're sketches , that' s helpfu l to se e wha t th e resul t i s an d mayb e allo w u s to write , articulate th e provisio n i n a littl e bette r to understan d how to make sure i t works . S o it' s kin d of hard sometime s to figure ou t thes e thing s whe n you're imaginin g placements of handrail s an d whateve r i n you r head . I t always help s to have a diagram . > > OK . Jose , coul d yo u d o m e th e favo r an d sen d m e a photograp h o r somethin g of wha t yo u guys have now , jus t s o - - an d I wil l try to articulate that ? Again , on e of th e thing s we wan t to d o i s try to take som e of thes e hard to - defin e thing s i n text an d pu t the m into diagram s an d things . S o tha t woul db e a very goo d ite m fo r u s to d o tha t with .

> > Yes , Blair . Tha t woul d b e fine . I'l l - - I ca n ge t tha t ou t to you . > > OK . I appreciate that . Al l right . OK . Th e next place I ha d re d letterin g wa s dow n i n note 8 , an d there wa s discussio n aroun d we could , an d there wa s a note abou t replica an d rehabilitate d cars , an d we ha d i t originall y a s a lengt h issue , bu t the n there wa s streetcars , o r vehicle s we were tryin g to defin e a s man y vehicle s a s though t i t shoul d b e a capacity issu e versu s siz e of th e vehicle . S o I ha d change d tha t t o replic a an d reha b ilitate d cars wit h a capacity o f X , numbe r t o b e determined , are th e sam e a s ligh t rai l excep t fo r seatin g locations , cars wit h capac i ty of more tha n X are th e sam e a s ligh t rail . S o thos e are numbers I ' m no t sure ho w to bes t determine , bu t I woul d entertai n an y logic a l numbers tha t folks ca n tos s ou t fo r that . > > Thi s i s Dennis . On e of th e issue s abou t we tri e d to d o thi s before wit h buse s i n term s of th e length , an d we s e ttle d o n a lengt h becaus e tha t wa s eas y t o do . Capacity i s kin d of a n interestin g question . D o yo u mea n seate d capacity , standin g c a pacity , crus h loa d o r whatever? An d there' s al l sorts of wa ys t o defin e th e seating . Som e rai l cars have onl y perimete r seats , an d s o the y have lots of space i n th e cente r fo r standees , bu t i f yo u're talkin g abou t seate d capacity they're a lo t lowe r tha n I thin k M e tro cars , whic h are typicall y somethin g like 8 0 seats an d the y have fo rward an d rearward facin g pairs o n eac h side . S o it' s a litt l e tricky . I kno w tha t there' s a requiremen t i n th e statut e an d i n th e DO T regulation s abou t vans , fo r example , wit h a se a tin g - - a s yo u said , it' s capacity , it' s bee n rea d a s seatin g cap a city o f eigh t o r more . On e of m y colleague s wen t i n a n airport som e where i n – to ge t a taxi , she' s no t i n a wheelchair , an d sh e go t i nth e cab , whic h

Sh e aske d somethin g abou t accessibility , an d th e g u y said , Oh , no , I too k tha t sea t out , becaus e i f I ha d tha t sea t i n there i t woul d b e happene d to b e i n a van , an d i t didn' t have a cente r benc h seat . eigh t o r more an d I' d have to make i t accessible . S o I too k th e sea t ou t s o I wouldn' t have to make i t accessible . S o yo u have to b e carefu l abou t capacity an d definin g wha t tha t actuall y means , becaus e peopl e ca n ge t aroun d lots o f thing s b y changin g th e seatin g configuratio n i n suc h a wa y a s t o skirt th e rule . > > Right . Dennis , thi s i s Blair . I thin k to tha t en d there wa s som e conversatio n before abou t that , tha t we woul d have to sa y i f yo u loo k a t a lo t of buse s i t wil l sa y capacity X seated , s o man y standees , tha t yo u woul d wan t to loo k a t on e of thos e numbers . Th e crus h loading , I think , throws everythin g righ t off th e map , bu t - -
> > Right . > > Yo u make a very goo d poin t there tha t there' s somebod y wil l try to wor k aroun d virtuall y anythin g we do . An d we're tryin g to mak e folks ' life a littl e easie r o n th e desig n side , I think . S o anyway , d o we wan t d o g o bac k t o a lengt h designatio n there o r what' s goin g t o b e ou r bes t pat h forward o n that ? D o we wan t to sen d tha t ou t fo r more comment ?
> > I thin k that' s a goo d subject of comment , becaus e there' s lots o f answe r is . Again , we settle d o n a lengt h before becaus e i t wa s th e easies t to do .Al l of th e othe r suggestion s abou t gros s vehicl e weigh t an d al l kind s of

othe r thing s ha d problem s wit h tryin g t o defin e an d catchin g a grou p of vehicle s i n on e category tha t differin g views abou t that , an d I don' t actuall y kno w wha t th e someho w weren' t goin g to b e caugh t u p becaus e of som e othe r arbitrary thing . Lengt h i s kin d of arbitrary i n man y ways , an d i t wasn' t necessaril y th e preferre d fro m th e standpoin t o f manufacturers , bu t i t turne d ou t t o b e a numbe r tha t yo u coul d easil y get . An d s o som e of thes e othe r thing s are goin g to b e harder . I don' t kno w wha t differen t kind s of rating s o r length s o r capacitie s o r whateve r on e woul d use , bu t I thin k it' s a goo d issu e fo r seekin g specifi c commen t o n that . > > OK . An d I woul d g o a littl e furthe r too , Dennis . I'l l writ e somethin g u p o n that , bu t als o i n th e matte r of lengt h tha t th e lengt h i s a n acceptabl e standard , whethe r it' s ove r th e cente r of th e bolsters o r anti - climbers , o r whereve r th e industry wants to defin e it , bu t I ca n imagin e situation s where , especiall y wit h th e newe r streamline d thing s tha t yo u coul d have somethin g wit h a n incredibl e streamline d nos e tha t throws i t int o anothe r category fo r accessibility an d we'l l have folks ou t there wit h micrometers tryin g to ge t dow n to fraction s to sa y i t doe s o r doesn' t have to b e accessible . I woul d thin k we wan t t o defin e that , where i s tha t lengt h measured , an d i t can' t b e o n th e squish y parts of th e vehicle . OK . Great . excludin g thing s like energ y absorbin g bumpers an d bicycl e rack s an d whatever , bu t we don' t have a simila r kin d of thin g fo r rai l vehicles . I woul d assum e i t woul d no t includ e couplers , fo r example , becaus e that' s no t - - that' s sort of a n artificia l issu e tha t

> > An d jus t a s we said , lengt h wa s essentiall y OE M lengt h doesn' t reall y defin e th e length , bu t it' s a tricky issue , especiall y fo r rai l cars . > > Right . I n th e inne r city , th e heavy rai l cars we defin e typicall y eithe r ove rbuffers o r ove r th e pullin g face of couplers . Yo u ca n als o defin e o n th e cente r

of lin e of bolsters , bu t thos e are hard points tha t defin e th e functiona l size of th e vehicle , regardles s wha t els e yo u do . I wil l includ e tha t i n th e notes , o r th e request . Ite m numbe r 16 , o r note numbe r 1 6 wa s aroun d transfe r seats , an d wha t I adde d som e definitio n o n th e height . S o i t says now : Seats considere d transfe r seats mus t have a seatin g surface tha t i s a t leas t 1 7 to 1 9 inche s above th e fi nishe d floor . Bolsters o r othe r cushio n feature s mus t no t exten d above 1 9 inche s to avoi d hinderin g transfer . > > Blair , thi s i s Davi d Nelso n rea l quick . I' m sorry . I wa s readin g fro m 9 to 15 , s o 12 , 13 , an d 1 5 I woul d jus t - - I wa s curious , wha t are thos e exactly? Becaus e I don' t know i f there' s a definitio n fo r the m somewhere i n th e regulations . > > Thos e were adde d becaus e I thin k they ha d traditionall y falle n where on e agency wa s makin g a rea l effort to make cars accessibl e an d th e othe r on e said , We ll , we don' t have to , becaus e we're no t listed . S o we were tryin g to lis t thos e items . > > No , right , I understan d that . I' m jus t - - I don' t know , s o what' s a co g railway? An d incline ?
> > A co g railway , i f yo u g o an d Googl e th e Pike' s Pea k an d Manat u into th e othe r category an d a s a resul t there were instance s note d railway , o r I thin k it' s th e Moun t Wa shingto n railway , an d i n Switzerlan d they're loade d u p wit h co g railways , they're railroad s tha t can' t clim b hill s jus t wit h rail s an d wheels , s o the y have a gea r system , a rac k gea r an d a co g o r a roun d gea r tha t engage s th e rac k an d th e track , i t climb s hills . S o thos e wha t a co g railwa y is .> > OK . The n inclin e planes ?

> > We ll , a n inclin e plane , i f yo u g o to a place like Pittsburg h tha t ha s inclin e railways o r funiculars , it' s like a platform o r cabi n tha t run s u p a very stee p hillside , an d i t run s o n rails , bu t it' s usuall y cabl e driven . It' s almos t like a n elevato r lai d o n its side . Bu t ye t the y nee d to b e accessible . > > I thin k I've see n on e i n LA . I thin k I know wha t tha t is . Wh at' s a persona l rapi d transit ?
> > That' s a goo d question . > > I ca n tel l you . > > Al l right , Dennis . > > Thi s i s Denni s again . Persona l rapi d transi t ha s bee n kicke d aroun d fo r years wit h a n ide a of creatin g it , an d s o fa r th e onl y on e th e Heathrow Airport . Anyway , persona l rapi d transi t i s a syste m of vehicle s tha t are o n a fixe d guid e wa y , bu t th e station s are offline . S o essentially , yo u move alon g th e guid e wa y an d the n yo u com e of f to ge t to a station . Th e vehicle s are very small . They're designe d to have onl y mayb e thre e peopl e maximum . Wh e n we were discussin g this , becaus e Chicag o wa s goin g to buil d on e aroun d tha t I kno w of that' s actuall y bee n create d i s i n England , I thin k a t O'Hare , tha t havin g a requiremen t fo r two wheelchairs woul d essentiall y kil l th e project . Th e ide a i s thes e little , smal l littl e vehicle s whic h ma y have headways of onl y a fe w second s betwee n them , an d there woul d usuall y b e two o r thre e a t a statio n a t an y time . Wh a t yo u d o i s yo u punc h in , they're automated , yo u punc h i n you r destinatio n a t you r entry point , yo u board th e vehicl e an dth e vehicl e take s yo u directl y to tha t station , bypassin g al l th e intermediate

station s i n between . An d s o on e of th e issue s wa s th e capacity , an d there ha s bee n som e discussio n o n som e of th e bulleti n board s tha t tal k abou t thi s i n whic h becaus e of th e definitio n of fixe d rail , whic h says fixe d rail , fixe d schedule , th e answe r is , We ll , thes e aren' t reall y fixe d schedule , therefore they're actuall y deman d responsive , whic h mean s we don' t have to have al l of th e cars accessible , we ca n have jus t som e cars accessibl e provide d we mee t th e requirement s fo r equivalen t service . An d I don' t thin k th e peopl e requirements fo r equivalen t servic e are , becaus e the y woul d b e virtuall y impossibl e to mee t withou t every ca r bein g accessible . Bu t th e ide a wa s t o se t a standard becaus e thes e thing s may , there' s som e plan s t o buil d on e dow n i n Silico n Valle y servin g commute r rai l statio n an d off into som e industria l par k areas , tha t we wan t to make sure tha t the y understan d tha t thi s i s a fixe d rout e syste m an d tha t every vehicl e ha s to b e accessible , bu t i t woul d onl y hol d on e wheelchair , no t two , an d probabl y two o r thre e who've bee n advocatin g tha t reall y understan d wha t th e peopl e o n a seat , an d that' s abou t it . Becaus e the y operate s o clos e togethe r i n term s of th e headway , th e distance betwee n them , tha t yo u woul d ge t thre e o r fou r peopl e o n a statio n an d you' d loa d u p thre e o r fou r cars , al l of whic h woul d g o togethe r to th e sam e destination . S o it' s a modern sort of a Jetso n vie w of persona l rapi d transit , becaus e of th e cars bein g s o smal l an d they're al l automated . S o that' s wha t persona l rapi d transi t i s suppose d to b e about . W e wante d to capture tha t an d no t have tha t somethin g tha t peopl e though t wasn' t reall y require d to b e accessible . > > OK . Wow . Than k yo u s o much . I' m reall y gla d tha t yo u were abl e to explai n that . I thin k tha t mayb e th e definitio n shoul d b e expande d o n o n al l ofthem , an d the n mayb e als o ad d somethin g betwee n 1 5 an d 1 6 sayin g tha t

somethin g like an y future rail , tra m typ e of vehicle s mus t b e accessibl e an d wil l b e define d a t a - - like a t a late r date o r by th e Acces s Board a t anothe r time . Becaus e I' m differen t nam e tha t i s goin g to have to b e mad e accessible . I thin k th e gu y wh o mad e th e Tesl a cars , yo u know , i s talkin g abou t som e two seate r eggshel l ty p e of vehicl e tha t - - an d I can' t remembe r wha t it' s called , bu t I fee l like i f we ha d tha t typ e of languag e we' d b e abl e to prepare ourselve s fo r an y typ e of future vehicle s tha t have no t bee n name d yet . > > Thi s i s Dennis . There actuall y alread y i s tha t provisio n i n th e curren t rule . It' s under , I think , H , an d i t basicall y says tha t i f yo u thinkin g tha t i n th e future there' s goin g to b e somethin g new wit h a have a syste m tha t doesn' t mee t an y of these , the n yo u have to propos e how yo u're goin g to make i t accessibl e an d tha t ha s to b e approve d b y DO T i n consultatio n wit h th e Acces s Board . S o there' s a n anticipatio n tha t there wil l b e somethin g weird , on e of whic h cam e u p durin g m y tenure there wa s a cable - drive n syste m tha t yo u ma y have see n thi s i n Disneyland , fo r example , i n whic h th e cabl e neve r stops , o r th e cars neve r stop . Instead , whe n the y com e into th e station , th e statio n platform move s to b e movin g a t th e sam e spee d a s th e car , s o yo u now have a direct acces s across . Th e questio n wa s how d o yo u make tha t accessible ? S o th e designer , somewhere i n Europe , cam e u p wit h a n ide a abou t how to d o that , an d presente d i t to DO T an d to thos e of u s wo rkin g a t th e board a s th e proposa l fo r how i t is . I t mad e i t clea r tha t becaus e yo u weren' t - - jus t becaus e yo u weren' t i n a lis t whatever , didn' t mea n tha t yo u weren' t require d to b e accessible . I t jus t mean t - -
> > Great . I' m gla d tha t th e languag e i s there . > > - - tha t yo u ha d to com e u p wit h a proposal .> > OK . Dennis , than k yo u s o much . Let' s see . I f we move dow n to , let' s see ,

numbe r 18 , sleepin g ca r seats , foo d service seats , dinin g ca r seats an d othe r seats intende d fo r occupancy b y person s wh o wis h to transfe r fro m a wheelchai r mus t b e a t least , again , thi s wa s to ad d definition , 1 7 to 1 9 inche s above th e fi nishe d floor . Tha t wa s jus t to ad d more definitio n there , where we ha d non e before . 19 , of thing s here an d couldn' t defin e yoursel f nicel y a s rapid , light , o r service anima l space , I have fro m m y note s service anima l space ma y b e overlappe d b y - - no , there wa s conversatio n abou t allowin g animal s to tuc k unde r spaces . S o I wante d to ad d som e languag e here . Service anima l space ma y b e overlappe d b y fixe d objects a t si x inches , 1 2 inche s hig h an d 1 2 inche s a t 1 6 inche s high . Service anima l space ma y overla p othe r define d floo r space b y a maximu m of si x inche s longitudinall y an d transversely . An d again , tha t wa s aroun d ou r las t conversation s i s tha t s o yo u draw a bloc k of where th e service anima l i s suppose d to be , bu t realisticall y they're goin g to overla p othe r define d spaces , bu t we ha d talke d abou t there bein g allowance s fo r thos e thing s to overlap , bu t again , I wante d to throw som e definitio n i n there fo r wha t thos e maximum s migh t be . An y thoughts o n that ? An d i f yo u wan t to chew o n tha t unti l th e next meeting , the m ou t versu s allowin g som e overlap , an d i f we're goin g to allow overla p I thin k we nee d to defin e it , o r els e we'l l b e fightin g tha t one . > > Thi s i s Dennis . As someon e wh o travel s wit h a service dog , I've I've neve r ha d an y rea l problem , becaus e I usuall y have hi m i n betwee n m e an d th e wall , no t th e aisle . How yo u defin e tha t space i s goin g to b e tricky , I think . Wi thou t seeing , again , som e diagram s of how tha t works , it' s hard to imagin e how that' s goin g to b e accommodated . There are al l size s of service animals , fo r example , s o we have to se t som e kin d of criteria . W e don' t wan t to sa y yo u that' s awesome , bu t again , i f yo u loo k a t th e strict space s an d la y have tohave twic e th e space fo r a wheelchair , becaus e yo u migh t hav e a servic e

hors e o r something . > > Right . [Laughter] We 've talke d abou t th e servic e ponies . Let' s see . W e have a define d space of 1 4 inche s wide , 3 8 inche s lon g an d 1 6 inche s hig h fo r servic e animal . S o wha t I ca n do , Dennis , is , an d I've starte d doin g thi s o n som e of thes e layouts , I ca n bloc k thes e i n an d sho w wha t tha t kin d of overla p looks like i n scale , i f yo u thin k tha t wo ul d b e wort h doing . S o there' s a n understandin g of i f th e anima l i s tucke d ove r agains t th e wal l o r i f they're o n th e aisl e sid e o r layin g transversel y i n fron t of yo u , o r an d the n we ca n mayb e make som e decisio n abou t it . > > Sure . > > Tha t soun d like a goo d thing ?
> > Yeah . I wan t to als o as k yo u abou t 20 . > > OK . > > I thin k tha t wa s i n respons e to th e issu e raise d i n m y subcommitte e abou t th e permanentl y couple d fixe d consists , an d whethe r yo u coul d have th e restroo m bein g i n a n alternat e car . An d Lind a Marti n brough t u p a n issu e abou t th e statute , s o I wen t bac k an d looke d a t th e statute , an d sorry abou t this , Blair , bu t th e statut e specificall y define s inne r city rai l a s Amtrak , nothin g else , an d the n says specificall y tha t i t shal l b e discriminatio n fo r a ne w Amtra k – a wha t tha t migh t loo k like i n thos e condition s tha t I define d here , ne w inne r city rai l ca r to no t have space fo r a wheelchair , spac e t o transfer , an d a n accessibl e restroom . S o every Amtra k - - every ca r provide db y Amtra k is , b y statute , require d to have a n accessibl e restroom . Th e onl y

exclusion s are dinin g cars an d loung e cars , whic h d o no t have a restroo m fo r th e genera l public . S o Amtrak , thi s issu e of th e fixe d consis t train s tha t I mentione d th e las t tim e abou t bein g abl e to have th e restroo m i n th e secon d car , doesn' t wor k fo r - - doesn' t appl y to Amtrak . I t applie s to everybod y else , bu t no t Amtrak . [Laughter]
> > O f course . Dennis , thi s i s Blair . It' s interesting , there are historicall y cars tha t are , I don' t kno w i f the y exis t anymore , don' t cars , an d th e three - uni t ca r happene d to have bee n a diner , where th e middl e uni t wa s th e kitche n an d there wa s dinin g room s o n eithe r end . An d th e othe r ca r wa s a n articulate d chai r car , a coac h basically . Wh il e i t wa s mad e u p of two components , i t wa s a car . I t simpl y couldn' t exis t i f yo u too k eithe r on e of th e halve s apart , yo u wouldn' t have a whol e car , yo u couldn' t ru n it . I don' t kno w tha t there wa s an y though t give n to that , bu t whe n we were havin g tha t conversatio n before I wa s thinkin g abou t thos e ve hicles , thinkin g wow , the y reall y di d make a lo t of sense , becaus e yo u ha d thes e paire d units that , becaus e the y were paired , the y were articulated , the y ha d ful l widt h diaphragms , i t gave a leve l of servic e tha t yo u recal l i f Amtra k eve r ra n them , bu t the y were two - uni t an d three - uni t couldn' t have wit h two separate cars . Yet , yo u couldn' t operate the m a s individua l units ; the y were a ca r tha t ven t i n th e middle . Tha t migh t b e somethin g tha t we woul d have to ban g ou r head s agains t th e wal l on , bu t OK . Fo r now we'l l leave tha t a s i t is , o r I'l l exclud e Amtra k an d we ca n gnas h ou r teet h ove r that . > > Yeah .> > OK .

> > Oh , Blair , thi s i s Jos e callin g again . > > Yes ?
> > OK , i f yo u coul d mayb e bac k u p to note 1 6 an d 18 , o n th e
> > Yes . > > Jus t a n editoria l thin g tha t yo u migh t wan t to review it , afte r th e cal l today , on e thin g we sa w we weren' t quite clea r on , i t sai d tha t th e transfe r sea t ha s to b e a t leas t 1 7 to 1 9 inche s above th e floor , an d a bolste r o r cushio n canno t b e above 1 9 inches . S o now are we sayin g tha t i t ha s to b e a minimu m of 1 7 inches , seatin g surface , the n yo u ad d th e bolste r o n to p of it , whic h i s like two inche s possibly , whic h mean s i t wil l brin g yo u u p to 19 . S o d o we mea n 1 7 minimu m o r d o we mea n a rang e of 1 7 to 19 ?
> > We ll , i f yo u have th e rang e of 1 7 to 19 , bu t i f yo u thin k abou t a very simpl e bench -typ e sea t tha t ha s th e seatin g surface a s a plane , i t doesn' t have a rea l shap e to it , the n yo u woul d b e betwee n 1 7 an d 1 9 woul d b e OK , bu t i f yo u had , say , a plus h lon g distance sea t tha t ha d a seatin g surface tha t wa s where yo u actuall y spen t mos t of dimensions . you r tim e betwee n 1 7 an d 19 , bu t mayb e yo u wan t to make a bolste r tha t projects u p above th e seatin g surface , the n b y thi s definitio n we woul d sa y th e seatin g surface i s goin g to b e a t 1 7 o r 18 , whatever , an d tha t th e bolsters o n th e sid e woul d g o n o highe r tha n 19 . > > Oh , OK . Al l right . Yeah , that' s wha t we weren' t quit e sure abou t whe n thi s not e wa s reviewed , i f i t mean t tha t we were sayin g tha t i t ha d to b e a tleas t 1 7 bu t i t didn' t mea n tha t yo u ha d to construct a n unbolstere d sea t a t

1 7 o r 18 . Yo u know , yo u ca n se t i t withi n tha t rang e an d i t wil l stil l b e OK . sure I didn' t misunderstan d that , tha t th e 1 7 inche s i s sort of a minimu m fo r th e sea t surface , an d tha t 1 9 woul d b e th e maximu m fo r th e sea t surfac e o r anythin g tha t projecte d above th e sea t surface . Again , s o i f you're makin g a sid e move fro m a wheelchai r tha t you're no t goin g t o encounte r anythin g above 1 9 inche s off th e fl oor . > > OK . Than k you , Blair . > > Wh ethe r it' s a bolste r o r anythin g else . > > Yo u probabl y wan t to sa y uncompressed . > > OK . > > Jus t t o make sure we're talkin g abou t th e wha t i t i s whe n yo u pu t i t i n th e car , a s oppose d to wha t happen s whe n yo u si t o n it . > > OK . An d that' s somethin g to o tha t probabl y wil l b e goo d to have a littl e lin e diagra m tha t explain s thi s s o there' s n o question .
> > Yes . An d i f anyon e els e woul d rin g in , I' d appreciate it , to make OK . > > Al l right , than k you . > > Than k yo u very much . Anyon e have an y thoughts o n thos e dimensions ? I know we hashe d thos e aroun d las t time . [N o response ]OK . Let' s see . 20 , I thin k 2 0 wa s - - wa s there 21 ? No , that' s it . W e mad e i t

al l th e wa y throug h th e list . [Laughter]
see . > > Thi s i s David . I thin k yo u nee d to g o o n vacatio n every conference call , becaus e th e meetin g wil l finis h earl y then . [Laughter]
> > I' m sittin g i n m y littl e campe r wit h th e generato r running , th e breeze i s blowing . It' s great ! I' m a t th e Nationa l Park Service , whic h ha s thes e accessibl e picni c table s an d ramp s to everything , bu t th e weathe r i s doin g a numbe r o n som e of thes e things , s o I don' t know how accessibl e the y reall y are . Bu t anyway , let' s see , Denni s ha d sen t ou t a documen t o n surfaces . I thin k we shoul d take a pee k a t that , i f we coul d here . Let' s see . Clos e ou t m y matrix . I di d wan t to poin t out , Robert Carlso n sen t ou t a note , an d I wil l try to incorporate this , bu t th e conversatio n wa s aroun d th e articulated -typ e cars , an d th e commen t wa s aroun d HVA C ai r outlets s o tha t an y seatin g space s were no t i n th e direct pat h of HVA C ai r outlets . I swappe d e - mail s We 're a t 2:2 5 i n th e afternoon , accordin g to m y computer . Let' s wit h Robert to make sure I understoo d it , bu t I thin k wha t yo u have sometime s is , b y coincidence , th e accessibl e space s coincid e wit h change s i n th e HVA C syste m tha t are mayb e - - yo u know , becaus e they're a t th e en d of th e car , s o yo u en d u p wit h thes e advers e air- conditione d vents an d thing s like that . S o I'l l draft u p som e note abou t that . I' m no t sure , tha t ma y b e somethin g tha t actuall y woul d g o ove r to you , Dennis , to spaces , bu t I'l l write u p a note fo r tha t an d sen d i t to you .> > OK . S o surfaces . Dennis , yo u wan t to tal k abou t that ?

> > Sure . Thi s i s basicall y somethin g I pulle d togethe r fro m th e ADA accessibility requirements , an d lookin g a t som e of th e othe r thing s like publi c rights of wa y an d s o forth . They're nothin g particularl y unusua l abou t them . They're standard kind s of things , bu t the y have to d o wit h th e issu e of wha t yo u encounte r o n th e floor . S o fo r example , i t says tha t thes e technica l provision s appl y to an y of th e circulatio n paths , lift performance , ramps , wheelchai r an d mobility seatin g space s an d ste p treads . S o the n we start wit h th e technica l provision s whic h i s th e commo n one , whic h i s surface s shal l b e firm , stabl e an d sli p resistant . The n i t goe s o n to defin e openings . Thi s use d to b e calle d grating s i n th e ol d ADAA G requirement . Bu t th e ide a i s i f you've go t opening s i n th e floo r an d the y coul d b e o n a grate , the y coul d b e th e slo t tha t th e door , slidin g doo r goe s throug h an d s o forth , tha t yo u wan t to make sure tha t th e lon g - - i f they're elongate d

> > OK . tha t th e lon g dimensio n i s perpendicula r to th e primary pat h o f trave l an d tha t th e opening s themselve s reject a 5/8 - inc h sphere . S o essentially , yo u don' t ge t you r wheels , you r casters trapped . An d the n there' s a diagra m tha t I stol e fro m th e AD A accessibility standard s tha t shows th e max imum , it' s a half- inch . I thin k I sai d 5/8 . Th e protrusion s o n surface s can' t b e more tha n a quarte r inch , There' s a carpe t requirement . Som e cars d o i n fact hav e carpeting . Som e rapi d rai l cars are gettin g awa y fro m i t here i n Metro , bu t there are som e carpeting . Occasionall y there' s carpetin g i n compartments i n sleepers an d s o forth . S o there' s a requiremen t fo r essentiall y a level , firm , n o heavy paddin g underneat h an d maximu m half- inc h heigh t to th e to p of th e level , an d there wa s actuall y a diagra m i n th e AD A accessibilityguideline s tha t I didn' t pul l ou t o n tha t one .

Surfac e discontinuitie s says , an d thi s i s agai n a standard fro m accessibl e routes , whic h says yo u ca n have change s i n leve l of a quarte r of a n inc h maximum , an d i t ca n b e ve rtical , the n i t shows th e diagra m there of a quarte r inc h of a ste p up , an d that' s permitted . Anythin g ove r tha t wh e n yo u ge t u p t o more tha n a quarte r of a n inch , u p to a hal f a n inch , the n yo u have t o beve l tha t wit h th e slop e no t steepe r tha n 1 to 2 . S o thi s i s th e kin d of thin g yo u se e i n threshold , where there' s a littl e upward quarte r inch , the n a slope d area , the n i t level s off . Anythin g greate r tha n half- inc h ha s to b e a ramp , treate d a s a tha t mean s like bol t head s an d thing s like that . ram p wit h 1 to 1 2 maximu m slope . S o thos e are jus t simpl e provision s of - - tha t I sa y I pulle d fro m th e ADA accessibility guide . There i s on e issue , however , that' s no t addresse d an d I' m no t sure how to d o it , bu t i f yo u have a quarter- inc h gap , I mea n a vertica l bum p of a quarte r of a n inch , that' s a permitte d accessibl e feature . There' s n o definitio n of th e consecutive quarter- inc h ve rtica l jumps . Yo u coul d have a vertica l jum p of a quarte r inch , bu t g o ove r a n inc h an d the n yo u coul d hav e anothe r vertica l gap , a jum p of a quarte r of a n inc h an d g o ove r a n inch , an d anothe r vertica l gap . Yo u coul d make essentiall y a ste p tha t i f yo u - - actually , i f yo u onl y wen t ove r a quarte r of a n inch , yo u coul d have a 4 5 degre e angl e tha t meets th e definitio n of accessibl e route s i n ADA accessibility guidelines . S o on e of th e question s i s shoul d there b e a minimu m separatio n betwee n on e ga p an d on e vertica l displacemen t an d th e next . W e ha d proposed , I thin k i n th e rights of wa y i t wa s proposed , tha t tha t ha d to b e a minimu m of somethin g like 2 8 inches , whic h wa s th e approximate whee l bas e of a kin d o f standard wheelchair . I t migh t b e differen t tha n that . Bu t th e ide a i s tha tyo u don' t wan t to have a whol e bunc h of thes e quarter- inc h vertica l

displacements togethe r i n suc h a wa y tha t yo u actuall y ge t like a 4 5 degre e walkway . S o I don' t know wha t th e answe r to tha t is , an d a s ho w peopl e wan t to dea l wit h that , bu t let' s fo r th e momen t leave tha t maximu m - - o r rather , th e minimu m spacin g betwee n tw o an d se e whethe r anybody' s go t problem s wit h wha t i s i n thi s document , the n we ca n discus s th e issu e of wha t to d o wit h th e spacin g betwee n the m separately . > > Dennis , thi s i s Blair . Yo u know , we've bee n workin g wit h tha t o n pathwa y o f a slidin g doo r an d seals , an d i n som e place s there weren' t firm definition s fo r rail , s o we were leanin g o n othe r things . I pestere d Lind a ove r a t FRA , an d we cam e u p wit h som e numbers , an d mos t of thos e we were abl e t o achieve . Once yo u start goin g betwee n cars tha t are no t semipermanentl y coupled , the n dealin g wit h som e of thos e numbers gets t o b e very tricky , an d I suppos e i t woul d make sens e fo r m e to gathe r wha t thos e existin g extreme s are no w an d whil e we're no t dealin g wit h what' s currentl y existin g thos e kin d of extreme s fo r separat e individua l cars runnin g togethe r isn' t likel y to change . Bu t I ca n com e u p wit h wha t som e of th e extreme s are , an d we ca n che w o n those . Yo u brin g u p a very vali d poin t o n ho w man y of thos e change s ca n yo u have . W e were lookin g a t usin g like th e half- inc h minimu m o n threshold , becaus e yo u have a threshol d i f yo u take a cross - sectio n of it , you've go t seal s an d you've go t wate r drainin g feature s an d thing s like tha t tha t com e int o play . S o we we re dealin g wit h I thin k a half- inc h maximum , an d ha d worke d ou t s o tha t th e - - yo u were neve r dealin g wit h more tha n th e on e to tw o ratio . An d eve n where we ha d those , we were tryin g to us e slope s versus , eve n wit h quarte r inch , tryin g to slop e instea d of havin g ou r new cars , dealin g wit h th e threshol d dimension s an d th e jus t vertica l barriers .S o yeah , tha t bring s u p som e very interestin g questions . I thin k i t woul d b e

wort h diggin g into wha t - - how cars are constructed . I know it' s bee n a toug h roa d fo r u s to ge t th e ca r an d hing e doors an d thing s like that . Part of tha t i s becaus e of th e builder . Part of i t i s becaus e of th e requirements . S o there' s probabl y a creative solutio n i n there somewhere . > > Right . Thi s i s Denni s again . On e of th e issue s i s to defin e wha t we mea n b y somethin g like a n onboard circulatio n path , becaus e a n onboard circulatio n path , whic h I don' t thin k we define , we don' t wan t to sa y accessibl e route becaus e that' s alread y take n i n th e ADA accessibility guidelines . W e don' t wan t to confus e peopl e wit h that , becaus e it' s no t th e same . Bu t I woul d sa y tha t th e difference s betwee n th e onboard circulatio n route , whic h need s to mee t al l of thes e kin d of things , whic h i s confine d to a specifi c ca r fo r th e most part , an d the n tal k abou t wha t happen s at , say , th e coupl e - - again , we're assumin g tha t th e couplin g betwee n two cars i s no t necessaril y a circulatio n pat h excep t i n emergencies , whe n you're tryin g to ge t peopl e fro m on e ca r to anothe r o r you're evacuatin g the m fro m th e end . I n th e provisio n tha t I wrote i n th e room s an d space s fo r th e fixe d consist , wha t we sai d i s i n orde r to allow yo u to have th e restroom , th e accessibl e restroo m b e i n th e adjacen t car , tha t pat h betwee n th e cars mus t mee t th e sam e requirements tha t yo u woul d doors to sea l followin g th e strict dimensione d fo r th e threshold s have fo r th e onboard circulatio n route . S o i f i t didn' t mee t thos e requirements , yo u couldn' t d o that . You' d have to have a n tha t woul d sa y tha t tha t particula r provisio n require s yo u to mee t a stricte r standard tha n yo u woul d normall y fo r th e chang e betwee n two cars . We 're assuming , I think , fo r th e mos t part , tha t yo u wouldn' t normall y g o betwee ncars . I f i t wa s designe d fo r tha t yo u ha d mayb e a marrie d pai r o r something ,

the n that , assumin g tha t you're goin g to allow tha t to b e a trave l path , i t woul d have to mee t thes e requirements , bu t a t othe r time s i t wouldn' t nee d to mee t thos e requirements . S o that' s on e of th e issue s of defining , that' s th e scopin g issu e of sayin g thi s i s wha t a circulatio n pat h i s an d i t applie s here , an d thes e service provision s appl y to that . > > OK . Now , thos e woul d b e stati c condition s versu s dynamic , becaus e yo u i f yo u took , say , th e Acela , a s i t i s today , th e pat h betwee n th e cars probabl y exceed s th e vertica l differences . I haven' t measure d it , bu t I thin k i t does . Bu t i f yo u buil t a ca r like i t th e one s yo u showe d i n th e video s a t th e Septembe r meeting , Dennis , where yo u have go t i n its stati c conditio n yo u mee t al l of thes e things , bu t obviousl y whe n yo u ru n dow n th e railroa d th e cars are bouncin g aroun d a t differen t rates , s o tha t tha t dynami c conditio n i s very different . S o yo u ca n b e goin g throug h al l of thes e numbers an d exceedin g them , beatin g the m al l withi n th e sam e bounce . S o I wil l tel l yo u we wan t to defin e tha t a s a stati c accessibl e restroo m i n th e sam e ca r wit h th e seatin g space . S o condition , fo r sure . Becaus e yo u ca n have today , an d certainl y i n th e future i f yo u have adjoinin g cars , sa y yo u have a coac h tha t betwee n cars , the n thi s circulatio n pat h i s goin g to ge t into that . > > Yeah , I thin k tha t yo u have to defin e wha t i t i s tha t thi s applie s to . Thi s i s where th e scopin g come s in . I f you're goin g t o sa y tha t a foo d servic e ca r i s on e of thos e thing s an d yo u nee d to make sure tha t th e pat h betwee n the m complie s wit h whateve r th e standard i s we com e u p with , bu t yo u wouldn' t appl y i t to othe r things , othe r cars tha t are jus t couple d togethe r bu t aren' t reall y necessaril y intende d fo r yo u to move fro m on e t o th e other . > > OK . We ll , I'l l sa y this , an d I ca n d o a littl e digging , tha t i f yo u take - - som e of th e maintenanc e issue s tha t affect individua l cars versu s semipermanentl y o r permanentl y couple d cars ca n b e th e same . S o I ca ntry to fin d ou t wha t - - i f yo u too k a n Acel a ca r an d i t wa s perfectl y flat , wit h

al l thing s bein g ne w an d normal , what' s th e greates t possibl e difference betwee n them , an d I thin k we' d stil l b e withi n wha t you've define d i f yo u too k th e maximu m whee l wea r o n on e an d brand - ne w wheel s o n th e othe r bu t th e pat h i s continuou s an d no t separated . The n i t probabl y woul d stil l b e OK . Bu t I nee d to loo k a t tha t an d se e becaus e I kno w - -
> > Th e pat h i n th e betwee n a coac h ca r an d Acel a an d th e bistro ca r o r cafe car , whateve r it' s called , i s rough , it' s bumpy . > > Right . > > Bu t it' s no t like th e betwee n generall y couple d cars , it' s no t anythin g a s severe a s that , bu t i t i s bumpy , an d I don' t know whethe r i t coul d b e mad e les s bump y o r not . Bu t clearly , i n th e S th e issu e i s i t i s no t bump y a t all , bu t ha s a fla t middl e plate o n to p of it , transition . > > Right . Wh e n yo u g o bac k to whe n we were workin g o n th e design s fo r th e Acela , we were breakin g new groun d fo r inne r city trains , an d we di d th e tes t run s throug h there , bu t we didn' t have anythin g firm to lea n bac k on . Hopefull y whe n we com e ou t of this , we'l l have definitio n tha t we'l l make sure tha t th e next tim e aroun d we ge t decen t surfaces , goo d surface s to rol l acros s tha t have th e righ t vertica l situatio n a s well . OK . We l l - -
> > Thi s i s Davi d here . Als o we woul d als o - - I' m sorry , handrail s a s well , i n betwee n th e couplin g of th e cars , becaus e fo r example , th e Acel a doesn' t have an y handrails . > > I t ha s vertica l handhold s where the y ca n be . Bu t they're no t continu e outs ,there' s n o - - continuous , there are n o horizonta l handrail s throug h th e space ,

bu t there are vertica l handrail s i n eac h vehicle , a s fa r ou t a s the y ca n g o an d stil l dea l wit h th e - -
> > I mea n horizonta l handrails . Tha t seem s like a pretty lon g section . O r i s tha t no t eve n possible ?
> > We ll , i t ha s to bend , s o unles s yo u mad e th e handrail s ou t of rubber , I' m no t sure wha t yo u woul d do . [Laughter]
> > We ll , an d there wa s a rea l effort there to pu t fairl y - - th e vertica l handhold s tha t exis t there are ou t a s fa r a s the y ca n g o i n th e vehicle , an d they're no t th e typica l skinn y littl e railroa d handholds , they're actuall y I thin k inc h an d a half , inc h an d a quarter . S o al l I ca n tel l you , don' t spen d muc h tim e there i f yo u ca n avoi d it . [Laughter]
> > The n also , Dennis , th e Shinkansen , the y don' t have horizonta l handrails , d o they? I couldn' t remember , i n th e video . > > No , there weren't . Again , i t ha s to ben d a t tha t point , s o yo u can' t pu t a horizonta l handrai l acros s th e opening . > > I' m goin g to remin d peopl e to identify themselve s whe n the y talk . Thi s i s Marcia . We 've ha d severa l bac k an d forth s wit h someon e talkin g an d I don' t know wh o tha t was . > > Thi s i s Davi d Nelson . > > Than k you , David .> > I thin k th e issu e there , thi s i s Blair , th e issu e wit h th e horizonta l rail s i s yo u

have vertica l changes , yo u have horizontal , yo u have X , Y an d Z dimensiona l change s goin g o n a s th e trai n i s moving , an d tha t reall y create s a - - to achieve i t coul d create a hazard i n itsel f i f yo u ad d slipping , on e handrai l insid e of th e other , tha t kin d of thin g to try to accommodate that . I t ma y b e tha t there' s th e ability to have othe r handhold s tha t are intermitten t i n th e space an d i f we wan t to sa y somethin g tha t - - o r propos e minimu m distance s betwee n vehicle s fo r som e kin d of handhold , mayb e that' s a wa y to addres s tha t concern . > > Thi s i s Dennis . I thin k th e more likely , becaus e I' m no t sure tha t we coul d sa y tha t th e wall s have t o b e particula r structural , i f they're movin g o r they're bellows o r something , I' m no t sure wha t yo u woul d attac h i t to . I t seem s t o m e probabl y th e bes t yo u coul d d o i s to have gra b bars , whatever , handholds , jus t insid e eac h o f th e cars , s o tha t th e minimu m yo u have to reac h fro m on e handrai l to th e othe r i s th e minimu m yo u ca n achieve to ge t th e flexibility t o have th e cars . > > OK . Dennis , tha t sound s like a goo d idea . I wil l try to pu t som e languag e aroun d that . OK . > > Thi s i s Davi d here . I've go t anothe r naive question , yo u know . I a t som e poin t Amtra k i s goin g to have a mi x of ol d an d ne w cars i n th e future , noncouple d cars . I mean , Blair , i s there a possibility o f th e vestibule , th e very end s of th e vestibul e tha t th e ne w ca r migh t b e wide r tha n th e ol d car , where i t woul d b e coupled , bu t there migh t b e somethin g i n there to protect i t fro m al l of th e - - I mean , weathe r situations , makin g sure i t wa s sealed , becaus e obviously , eventually , th e olde r cars wil l the n al l b e switche d to th e ne w cars . Are yo u trackin g wha t I' m saying ? Blair? No ?
> > W e ma y have los t hi s generator . [Laughter]> > I wa s muted . I wa s talkin g to a mute d phone . [Laughter]

Generato r i s good . I fille d i t u p before we started . Yeah , I understan d wha t you're sayin g there , David . Bu t i f yo u [Laughter] have , fo r example , i f yo u take th e tightes t dimensio n i n a n ex istin g olde r car , i f it' s 3 0 inches , an d the n you're goin g to g o to a ca r tha t ha s 3 2 inches , tha t transitio n i s goin g t o b e manage d wit h a diaphrag m itself . So , fo r example , ou r diaphragms , th e widt h proble m i s no t i n th e diaphrag m itself , it' s i n th e collisio n pos t o f th e car . S o i f yo u couple d a n existin g ca r tha t di d no t mee t 3 2 inche s throug h th e collisio n pos t to a ne w ca r tha t meets o r exceed s th e 3 2 inche s betwee n th e collisio n posts , th e diaphrag m i s goin g t o take u p tha t transition . > > Thi s i s Dennis . Th e issu e of makin g u p a trai n consis t an d ho w yo u pu t i t togethe r i s a n operationa l issue , on e tha t thi s committe e can' t address . I t wil l b e part of th e DO T rule s tha t ma y sa y yo u mus t coupl e somethin g cars together . Bu t there wil l always b e a proble m of havin g ol d an d ne w cars . That' s tru e n o matte r wha t syste m you're talkin g about , an d yes , there wil l b e occasionall y a cas e where yo u ge t o n a rapi d rai l train , fo r example , an d som e o f th e cars are ol d an d som e of th e cars are new , an d yo u ma y fin d tha t th e nic e accessibl e space i n th e brand - ne w cars isn' t i n th e ca r tha t yo u ge t on , an d that' s a difficulty . W e ha d people , whe n we trie d to revis e th e bu s rule , we ha d a bunc h of people , transi t operators , sai d well , we've go t al l thes e ol d vehicles . Ho w are peopl e suppose d to kno w tha t th e bu s tha t pull s u p meets th e sam e requirements a s th e ol d ones ? Th e Thei r argumen t wa s that' s on e of th e reason s wh y w e answe r i s yo u won't . shouldn' t chang e th e provision . Tha t woul d mea n we woul d always b e i n th e stati c mod e of wha t we have toda y an d we woul d neve r chang e th eprovision .

S o th e reality i s that , jus t like i n buildings , there are som e building s tha t were buil t to b e "accessible " unde r th e ol d ANS I standard tha t aren' t accessibl e accordin g to th e new AD A guidelines , an d that' s goin g to b e tru e n o - - th e new ADA AB A guidelines , an d that' s tru e n o matte r where yo u are . > > OK . > > OK . I f we could , Dennis , I appreciate you r efforts o n th e surfaces , I' m goin g to jo t dow n som e note s o n tha t an d ge t the m ou t fo r th e next discussio n to se e i f we ca n nai l dow n som e of thos e thing s tha t are rai l particular , particularl y fo r inne r city o r commute r cars where tha t surface i s eve r changing . I ha d a note abou t sea t handles . We 're dow n to 2:5 0 p.m. , s o we're a t 1 0 minute s out . I wa s thinkin g abou t sea t handles . I know i n inne r city we've looke d a t sea t handle s before , how to incorporate the m i n new seats , the n we didn' t bu y th e new seats , bu t dependin g o n th e typ e of service , I don' t know i f we wan t to defin e th e handle s o r sa y where provide d wha t th e clearance s mus t be , o r i f we wan t to g o s o fa r a s to sa y tha t there mus t b e som e they're - - regardles s of whethe r they're commuter , inne r city o r whatever , to hel p peopl e navigate th e cars , s o the y know i f the y reac h an d gra b somethin g a t th e to p corne r of th e sea t it' s mean t to define d poin t o n th e corners of seats regard levers of whethe r b e grabbed , versu s th e cushio n o r som e othe r undefine d spot . > > Thi s i s Dennis . Th e fact tha t th e sea t - - yo u know , we' d sai d i n buses , fo r example , tha t every sea t bac k ha s to have a handhol d acros s th e back , i t ha s to b e closest , a t leas t part of i t ha s t o b e closes t t o th e aisle . W eexclude d reclinin g seats , becaus e obviousl y that' s - - no , the y ha d to have

handrail s too , bu t the y didn' t have t o have a vertica l stanchio n tha t wen t fro m tha t seatbac k u p to th e ceiling . Th e sam e woul d b e sai d of th e seats i n a n inne r city train , o r I suppos e a commute r rail , whic h pivots an d rotates . Yo u have som e issue s where th e seats actuall y tur n aroun d to fac e th e othe r direction . Obviously , havin g a vertica l handrai l goin g fro m th e sea t t o th e ceilin g isn' t goin g to wor k i n those , bu t the y coul d stil l have a handrai l a t th e cros s of th e back . I've see n a numbe r of picture s of seats tha t are , i n fact , reclinin g seats , two pairs , separat e re - Klein , bu t the y have

- - recline , bu t the y have handrail s o n th e to p of eac h one . That' s critica l fo r th e peopl e wh o are short an d can' t reac h tha t overhea d rai l whic h exists i n mos t cars an d i n mos t buses . It' s very difficult . An d grabbin g a hol d of th e sea t itsel f ca n b e a problem . Yo u aren' t necessaril y gettin g hol d of somethin g that' s fir m an d stable . > > OK . I though t i t wa s importan t tha t we define , a t a minimum , stee l handl e tha t yo u se e o n a bu s o r transi t o r somethin g else , bu t I wil l pu t som e languag e togethe r o n tha t s o we ca n ge t ou r head s aroun d it . S o i t doe s th e job . som e kin d of firm grippin g spot , whethe r it' s - - looks like a stainles s I know we looke d a t i t years ag o whe n everyon e rea d newspapers , we were lookin g a t the m becaus e we knew peopl e were holdin g th e to p of th e seats to maneuver , bu t the y were gettin g th e seats dirty fro m th e news print . S o i t was , honestly , les s of a n accessibility issue , an d more we were tire d of tryin g to clea n th e to p corners of th e seats . OK , I wil l pu t somethin g togethe r o n tha t fo r consideratio n next time . We 're a t seve n minute s of th e hour . I've gon e packe d an d peeke d a t th e initia l issue s list . I don' t know i f anyon e els e ha s ha d a chance to loo k a t that , bu t thereha s bee n discussion , I thin k mare Marily n raise d th e issu e bac k to th e Acces s

Board to make sure we addresse d al l of th e issue s an d al l th e issue s ha d gotte n into th e righ t subcommittee s an d they were gettin g addressed . Doe s anyon e have an y particula r issue s tha t have com e of f tha t lis t tha t haven' t bee n addresse d tha t belon g to seatin g an d circulatio n tha t we nee d to chew on ?
> > Thi s i s Dennis . I don' t have th e lis t i n fron t of m e to remember , bu t on e of th e thing s tha t stil l sort of i s hangin g u p i n th e ai r i s circulatio n route an d s o forth , woul d cove r cal l button s an d plug s an d whatno t tha t wil l b e a t th e seatin g locations . Bu t i t als o affects whethe r directl y th e sleeper , where yo u have to have ligh t control s an d doo r handle s an d al l kind s of thing s like that . S o I wa s thinkin g of actually , unles s yo u have specifi c control s an d operatin g mechanisms , whic h are probabl y part of thi s proprietary o r desire s t o kee p i t handy , I wa s goin g to try an d tackl e control s an d operatin g mechanism s issu e withi n th e room s an d spaces . > > OK . Dennis , I know withi n you r committe e we ha d talke d abou t that , an d I kin d of though t that' s where we ha d resolve d i t o r we re workin g o n it . I woul d sa y unles s i t belong s particularl y to a seat , where we nee d to make sure we defin e a sea t function , like a n reclin e butto n o r thos e kind s of things , tha t tha t woul d b e appropriat e to capture i t i n spaces . > > OK . > > I woul d ad d to that , well , i f you've go t controls , I thin k we discusse d HVA C control s an d thing s like that , bu t tha t migh t addres s Bo b Carlson' s concer n abou t HVA C vents an d control s - -> > Blair? Thi s i s Jim . You've go t abou t 4 minutes , an d wha t yo u reall y

nee d to d o before we clos e u p i s se t a date fo r th e next meeting . > > OK . Very goo d point . > > I thin k we nee d t o ge t tha t on e don e before yo u d o anythin g else . I thin k we're lookin g a t Novembe r 12 , 13 , i n a tha t ballpark , > > OK . I s th e 12t h a We dnesda y o r i s tha t th e Thursday ?
> > 12t h i s a We dnesday , 13t h i s a Thursday . > > 12th , let' s see . > > No , I' m sorry , thi s i s Jos e - - wasn' t there a concer n - - thi s i s Marcia . Wa sn' t there a concer n tha t th e We dnesda y schedul e mad e dependin g o n ho w people' s schedule s are . i t impossibl e fo r Dr . Steinfel d to participate , s o h e ha d requeste d som e change ? A m I gettin g tha t wrong ?
> > I t is . H e requeste d a We dnesday , bu t - -
> > Oh , OK . S o i t i s th e Thursda y schedul e tha t wa s problemati c fo r him ?
> > That' s correct . Toda y he' s no t o n th e call . > > Mayb e h e didn' t have enoug h notice . I don' t know . I n an y cas e

- -> > We ll , I - -

> > He' s no t bee n abl e to participat e becaus e of th e date i n th e past . > > I don' t have a proble m lookin g forward . I don' t have a proble m wit h eithe r da y i n November , unles s someon e els e ha s particula r problem . I s th e confirmatio n tha t i t wa s th e We dnesda y tha t h e preferre d versu s th e Thursdays ?
> > Yes , we believe that' s correct . > > OK . Wo ul d anybod y have an y troubl e wit h u s schedulin g tha t fo r Novembe r 1 2 then ? We dnesda y an d th e 13t h i s a Thursday , an d it' s th e da y afte r Veteran s Day . Veteran s Da y i s a Tuesday , 11th . S o i f yo u make i t fo r th e 12t h tha t woul d b e suitable . > > OK . Al l right . Al l right . Hearin g - - an y furthe r discussio n o n that ? I f none , we'l l se t tha t a t Novembe r 1 2 fo r th e next meeting . > > OK . > > Soun d good ?

> > OK , then , yes , thi s i s Jose , Blair , ye s th e 12t h of Novembe r i s a
> > Thi s i s Dennis . M y headphon e i s beepin g a t me , s o an y minut e no w i t ma y cu t off . S o I ma y los e you . > > OK . Dennis , than k you . OK , Jim , we're goo d th e re fo r Novembe r 12 ?
> > Yes , sir .> > OK . Al l right . Let' s see . Bac k to - - OK . Al l right . We ll , a t thi s poin t th e

action s - - th e actio n item s fal l fo r me , an d I thin k we nee d to , to Denni s he ' poin t ge t som e diagram s together , bu t I appreciate everyone' s help , particularl y o n closin g ou t issue s o n th e matrix . That' s a bi g one . An d fo r th e next meetin g we'l l h ave som e diagrams , particularl y o f som e of thes e issue s aro u n d th e transi t cars , lookin g acros s th e vehicles , an d where handra il s migh t occu r fro m tha t note 5 , B an d C . Anyon e have an y othe r thing s we n ee d t o thin k abou t fo r th e next meetin g s o we ca n ge t som e materia l toget h er?
> > Thi s i s Jim . I wan t to remin d yo u i f you're go i n g to sen d u s diagrams , ge t the m t o u s a s soo n a s yo u ca n s o we c a n try to ge t
> > OK . Very good . An d I wil l thro w tha t bac k ou t to folks tha t are goin g to sen d m e informatio n to pleas e sen d tha t a s earl y a s yo u ca n s o we ca n ge t tha t int o th e format . OK . N o on e ha s anythin g else , t h e n I wil l cal l tha t a day . > > Great . > > 3:0 0 p.m . Easter n Ti me . > > Al l right . the m i n accessibl e formats . > > Than k you , everybody . Than k you , Jean , fo r al l you r hel p today . Than k you , Steve Clark , fo r al l you r reporting . W e loo k forward to th etranscript . Jean , th e cal l ha s ended . Pleas e disconnect al l lines . Than k

yo u very much . > > Than k you . > > Than k you , everyone . > > Bye - bye . [Cal l ende d a t 3:0 0 p.m . Eastern Time ]