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GANGS, FRAUD AND SEXUAL PREDATORS: STRUGGLING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF ILLEGAL

IMMIGRATION

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE,

DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT REFORM

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

APRIL 12, 2006

Serial No. 109–189

Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html

http://www.house.gov/reform

(II)

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM

TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut

DAN BURTON, Indiana

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida

JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan

MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio

DARRELL E. ISSA, California

JON C. PORTER, Nevada

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina

CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania

VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina

JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio

——— ———

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

TOM LANTOS, California

MAJOR R. OWENS, New York

EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri

DIANE E. WATSON, California

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland

LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California

C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

———

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont

(Independent)

DAVID MARIN, Staff Director

LARRY HALLORAN, Deputy Staff Director

TERESA AUSTIN, Chief Clerk

PHIL BARNETT, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana, Chairman

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina

DAN BURTON, Indiana

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

CHRIS CANNON, Utah

CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan

GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida

VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois

DIANE E. WATSON, California

LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California

C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland

MAJOR R. OWENS, New York

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

EX OFFICIO

TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California

J. MARC WHEAT, Staff Director

DENNIS KILCOYNE, Professional Staff Member

MALIA HOLST, Clerk

(III)

C O N T E N T S

Page

Hearing held on April 12, 2006 .............................................................................. 1

Statement of:

Folwell, Dale, a State representative, State of North Carolina; Thomas

J. Keith, district attorney, 21st Prosecutorial District, North Carolina;

Debra Conrad-Shrader, vice-chair, Forsyth Bounty Board of Commissioners; and Brandon Holland, Forsyth County Director, Zero Armed

Perpetrators [ZAP] Program ........................................................................ 35

Conrad-Shrader, Debra ............................................................................. 50

Folwell, Dale .............................................................................................. 35

Holland, Brandon ...................................................................................... 54

Keith, Thomas J. ....................................................................................... 38

Jordan, Jeffrey S., Special Agent-in-Charge, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Charlotte,

NC .................................................................................................................. 14

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Conrad-Shrader, Debra, vice-chair, Forsyth Bounty Board of Commissioners, prepared statement of .................................................................... 52

Foxx, Hon. Virginia, a Representative in Congress from the State of

North Carolina, prepared statement of ....................................................... 9

Holland, Brandon, Forsyth County Director, Zero Armed Perpetrators

[ZAP] Program, prepared statement of ....................................................... 57

Jordan, Jeffrey S., Special Agent-in-Charge, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Charlotte,

NC, prepared statement of ........................................................................... 17

Keith, Thomas J., district attorney, 21st Prosecutorial District, North

Carolina, prepared statement of .................................................................. 42

Souder, Hon. Mark E., a Representative in Congress from the State

of Indiana, prepared statement of ............................................................... 4

(1)

GANGS, FRAUD AND SEXUAL PREDATORS:

STRUGGLING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES

OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 2006

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY,

AND HUMAN RESOURCES,

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM,

Winston-Salem, NC.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in the

County Commissioners Meeting Room, Forsyth County Government Center, 201 North Chestnut Street, Winston-Salem, NC, Hon.

Mark E. Souder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Souder and Foxx.

Staff present: Dennis Kilcoyne, professional staff member and

counsel; Scott Springer, congressional fellow; and Malia Holst,

clerk.

Mr. SOUDER. The subcommittee will come to order.

Good morning and thank you all for coming. Today, our subcommittee will address some of the issues surrounding the debate

on illegal immigration, which you all know is a very contentious

topic. Congresswoman Foxx wanted to make sure that I pointed out

that we had settled on this topic some time ago, we did not realize

all the stories over the last couple of days were going to focus on

immigration. This has been a continuing subject. Our committee

has jurisdiction over all judiciary issues as well as all drug issues.

We do not have jurisdiction over work force issues, so we are not

going to be focusing on work force questions today, because it is not

in the domain of our subcommittee.

I first want to thank your Congresswoman Virginia Foxx, who is

a member of this subcommittee and has been an energetic advocate

for greater border security and enforcement. I also want to thank

the witnesses who are here today to give us their input. I will be

introducing them shortly.

The House of Representatives has already passed legislation

aimed at halting the flow of illegal aliens across the border and,

as we know, the Senate just last week came close to passing its

own immigration reform bill. The Senate’s failure demonstrates the

tremendous polarization on this issue. The great majority of American people feel strongly that the Federal Government is failing in

its responsibilities to defend our borders and the growing anger

and frustration is palpable. On the other hand, immigrants—many

undoubtedly here illegally—are taking to the streets in large numVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:35 Dec 04, 2006 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 D:\DOCS\30529.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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bers, waving the flags of foreign nations and demanding that the

Government essentially continue to be passive.

This debate raises questions which are difficult, but which we

must fearlessly confront. Who are we as a people? Is it fair for taxpayers and citizens in general, for us to massively subsidize millions of illegal immigrants in our midst? Should we continue to

shrug our shoulders and discourage any talk of the criminal elements among these illegal immigrants, lest we be accused of being

bigots? Or should we courageously and responsibly confront these

problems head-on?

Since 2001, the illegal immigrant population in this country has

been swelling by an estimated 700,000 annually. After crossing the

border, most illegal immigrants undoubtedly would prefer to quietly find work and earn money—I would guess as many as 90 percent—rather than participate in any activity—maybe even as high

as 95 percent—rather than participate in any activity that might

draw attention of law enforcement. However, some may feel no

such restraint, as many Federal, State and local police agencies

will attest.

It is in cities like Winston-Salem, as well as smaller communities, that the presence of criminals who have illegally entered the

country is most keenly felt. In many cases, such elements come together to form classic street gangs, staking out territories and dedicating themselves to controlling the local drug trade. In most cases,

the drug trade is the engine that drives other criminal activity,

particularly property crimes and robberies, as addicts who are unable to keep steady employment choose a life of petty crime to finance their drug addiction.

Recognizing the expanding threat from Hispanic street gangs, as

well as the fact that they are largely composed of illegal aliens, the

U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement [ICE] launched Operation Community Shield in February 2005 as a comprehensive initiative to disrupt and dismantle transnational, violent street gangs.

We will be hearing more about this vital project, which promises

to be very helpful to State and local authorities in controlling and

shutting down criminal gang activity by illegal aliens.

For local law enforcement in places like North Carolina, such

help is not coming a moment too soon. Local police lack the authority to hold suspects on immigration violations and have had to release them when lacking probable cause for other crimes. With Operation Community Shield in place, they now provide ICE with intelligence on gang organization and leadership learned through

their investigation of general crime, which enables ICE to arrest,

prosecute and/or deport individual gang members. Since the Operation was launched, ICE agents have arrested over 160 such gang

members in North Carolina.

In the same vein, ICE’s Operation Predator, which targets rapists, pedophiles, human traffickers and those who traffic in pornographic images of children, has been focused on foreign national

sex offenders, some of whom have, unfortunately, come to North

Carolina. Sexual predators who are here illegally present different

challenges to local law enforcement, and ICE agents bring valuable

investigative tools and authority to their efforts to stop foreign sex

predators from victimizing their children.

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Additionally, illegal immigration is straining Government at all

levels throughout the country as schools, hospitals and welfare

agencies, as well as law enforcement, are pressed to respond to the

needs of new populations that are consuming far more in tax revenue than they pay.

Few States have had to struggle with this burden as much as

North Carolina. Its illegal alien population is approaching half a

million, and it had the highest Hispanic population growth of any

State in the 1990’s. During the 1990’s, the immigrant population

of Forsyth County exploded by 515 percent, meaning that twothirds of the county’s foreign-born population had entered in just

10 years. The State government estimates that each illegal Hispanic immigrant is saddling it with a net cost of $102 annually.

Medicaid costs due to illegal immigration have doubled in 5 years.

The State is spending over $200 million annually to educate the

children of illegal immigrants, a more than 2,000 percent increase

in 10 years. Across the State, the criminal justice system is disrupted as courts and law enforcement struggle, particularly in

rural counties, to find translators to assist in investigations and

court proceedings for Spanish-speaking defendants. Too many

stresses and strains on State and local Government are accelerating at once, and there is clearly a need for government at all levels

to decisively reverse these trends in some fashion.

This hearing will examine these problems, probe the response of

Federal, State and local Governments and solicit solutions.

For our first panel, we are joined by Mr. Jeffrey S. Jordan, Special Agent of the U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement

[ICE].

For the second panel, we are joined by Thomas J. Keith, district

attorney for the 21st Prosecutorial District; Mr. Dale Folwell, currently your State representative and formerly of the Forsyth County School Board; Ms. Debra Conrad-Shrader, vice-chairman of the

Forsyth County Board of Commissioners; and Ms. Barbara Holland, director of the Zero Armed Perpetrators Program of Forsyth

County.

We thank all of you for joining us today and we look forward to

your testimony.

I want to repeat again, this is not precisely about the immigration bill. We are going to have differences. I voted against the immigration bill, and did not believe that an interior enforcement provision without work permit was workable; however, I drafted many

amendments through the Homeland Security Committee because I

believe strongly in stronger border enforcement and we need to

work out the internal. This is to talk about the practical implications and how we have to deal with some of the side consequences

of the illegal immigration. How we handle the question broader is

not in the purview of this hearing.

I will yield to Congresswoman Foxx.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Mark E. Souder follows:]

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Ms. FOXX. Thank you, Chairman Souder. I really appreciate you

coming to Forsyth County and to the Fifth District of North Carolina to hold this hearing. As you said, we have been planning this

for many weeks and did not realize the timeliness in terms of what

is happening nationally. But we are glad to have everyone here

who is concerned about the issue.

During the decade I served as a member of the North Carolina

State Legislature and during my first 15 months in the U.S. Congress, I have found that few issues trouble my constituency as

much as illegal immigration, and for good reason.

There truly is no issue more important to our Nation than the

safety and security of our constituents and the American way of

life. And border security is the starting point for ensuring that security. If we do not keep Americans safe at home, then the dozens

of other issues we debate in Congress simply will not matter.

The terrorist attacks on our homeland highlighted the potential

disastrous effects of porous borders and the need to bolster border

security, but the problem of illegal immigration also has additional

far-reaching dangerous effects. Ultimately it punishes all who follow the laws of the United States.

Immigration affects virtually every aspect of life in America.

With millions of legal and illegal immigrants settling in the United

States each year, a level higher than any other time during our

Nation’s history, illegal immigration has a major negative impact

on education, health care, Social Security, taxes, employment,

wages, the environment, crime and countless other areas of American life.

I sympathize with those who desperately wish to live the American dream here on American soil. I understand their desire for liberty, free markets, property rights and guaranteed freedoms. The

demand for access to America is a resounding testament to the

greatness of our Nation. However, immigration laws exist to provide the necessary steps for safe and legal entry into this country.

Illegal immigration must be stopped, but we cannot and should

not close our doors to those who wish to enter the country legally.

We must achieve our efforts to achieve closed borders with open,

guarded doors. We have an immigration process in place that simply must be followed. It also must be strictly enforced, much more

rigorously than is being enforced now. We are a Nation of immigrants, but we are first a Nation of laws.

Expedited identification of illegal immigrants, enhanced and increased border patrol and stiff penalties for employers and businesses that knowingly employ illegals are all necessary to secure

our borders and successfully combat illegal immigration. Our border patrol and law enforcement agents should be empowered to

crack down on illegal immigration and protect our borders.

My constituents and local law enforcement officers all echo the

same concern, that we must move from our unfortunate current

policy of inaction in relationship to dealing with illegal immigrants,

to one that ensure there are consequences for illegal behavior. They

are especially frustrated that we do not swiftly deport illegal immigrants, especially those who commit other crimes. As Members of

Congress, we must be receptive to their concerns and cannot lose

sight of this major problem. We must do all we can to establish and

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enforce a thorough and fastidious system for deterring, identifying

and dealing with illegal immigrants. Illegal immigration is a multifaceted problem that will require a multi-faceted solution.

A major part of that solution must include educating the public

about the real costs and consequences to America of illegal immigration. That is why we are here today. I have long fought for

tighter immigration controls, reflecting the sentiments of my constituents. The testimony these witnesses are about to offer is necessary to shed light on just how serious the problem truly is. Our

counties and communities, now saturated will illegal immigrants,

are spending billions of dollars on public health and education, law

enforcement and social services for people who are not even legally

allowed to be here. Every dollar spent on an illegal immigrant is

a dollar that was diverted away from a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen.

The burden of dealing with illegal immigration largely falls on

the shoulders of the officials who will testify today. The responsibility for solving the problem of illegal immigration at a national level

largely falls on the shoulders of the U.S. Congress. The purpose of

this investigatory and oversight hearing is to expose and address

the problem, educate the committee and work toward crafting the

most appropriate solutions.

Chairman Souder and I held a field hearing similar to this one

in Caldwell County yesterday to discuss the horrible problem of

methamphetamine use in North Carolina’s mountain counties. I

have been working with local law enforcement for many years to

eradicate meth production and we have had dramatic success.

However, since we have driven local meth labs out of the area, the

illicit drug is now being smuggled into North Carolina from the

Mexican border. In fact, over 80 percent of meth in North Carolina

now comes from Mexican sources. This leads to dramatic increases

in violent crime and wreaks havoc on our law enforcement personnel. Just when we had nearly eliminated the supply portion of the

supply and demand equation relating to the meth crisis, a brand

new supply presented itself with crystal meth being smuggled into

our communities from Mexico.

With drugs comes crime—violent crime. And increased violent

crime poses a very dangerous problem for our communities, not

only directly but also indirectly as police forces normally preventing crime become diluted in responding to crime. Several of the

mountain counties I represent are unfortunate examples of such a

problem. These counties generally enjoy a very low crime rate.

However, in recent years, they have had several methamphetamine

related homicides and violent robberies. This drug is wreaking

havoc in our local neighborhoods and is endangering the lives of

many, including our innocent children and our brave law enforcement officials.

Illegal immigration is consistently the No. 1 topic that my constituents write about and call my office with their concerns. It is

also the No. 1 problem expressed to me by many of the local officials I represent, some of whom you will hear from today. Politics

must be set aside so that we can concretely identify the severity

of the problem and begin to craft solutions. The very freedom that

attracts immigrants to our great Nation will erode if we do not

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take action to enforce and protect our laws. I look forward to constructive dialog, thank the chairman and our panelists for joining

me today.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Virginia Foxx follows:]

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Mr. SOUDER. Before we hear testimony, I need to take care of

some procedural matters.

First, I ask unanimous consent that all Members have 5 legislative days to submit written statements and questions for the hearing record and that any answers to written questions provided by

the witnesses also be included in the record. Without objection, it

is so ordered.

Second, I ask unanimous consent that all exhibits, documents

and other materials referred to by Members and witnesses may be

included in the hearing record, that all the Members be permitted

to revise and extend their remarks. And without objection, it is so

ordered.

Before I proceed, let me explain briefly what our committee does.

A lot of people are not familiar with the Government Reform Committee. In the Constitution, basically the first and foremost thing

that was given to the House of Representatives was tax and revenue questions. The Senate was given—they have to confirm Supreme Court Justices, all treaties and foreign policy. So foreign policy starts in the Senate, the House does some of that, but we control the purse strings. Because we control the purse strings, the

second group of committees formed in Congress were oversight

committees, Government Reform. Then after time, we created authorizing committees.

So if you look at the different issues, say take education, No

Child Left Behind would start in an authorizing committee, then

move to an appropriating committee to fund what the authorizing

set as upper limits and the policy. Then the Government Reform

Committee, in this case, ours has criminal justice, drug policy and

human resources, so we also have oversight over the Education Department. We would then review to see that No Child Left Behind

is being implemented in the way that the government intended.

That leads us a lot of times in doing more controversial oversight

in looking at difficult questions.

For example, much of the time during the Clinton administration, we were looking at the travel office, at Whitewater, at China,

at gambling, at all sorts of questionable uses of money in addition

to the regular oversight we did over drug policy and all the different subcommittees. At the full committee, we would handle

major issues. Waco, for example, we did a lot of oversight on that.

Probably the best known thing we have done in this Congress

was the steroids policy in baseball, Mark McGwire, when he said

that he did not want to talk about the past in front of our committee, made a lot of news. And of course, that is what the Government Reform Committee does, we talk about the past, so we can

learn about what legislation needs to be done and figure out how

to address the problems. So that is a little history of our committee.

Now as part of that, because we are an oversight committee, we

swear in all of our witnesses. We have only had a few cases of prosecution for perjury, so hopefully we will not have any today. But,

for example, that is why Mark McGwire spent 3 days trying to

duck a subpoena from the committee, moved actually to two different States. Finally the subpoena was served on him and then

the reason he did not want to talk about the past is because his

14

testimony could have in fact made him liable in any stadium in

America if he had said he had used illegal steroids, he could have

been liable for prosecution in any stadium in America.

Now I did not mean to intimidate any witnesses, we have never

had any cases in any field hearing, but I wanted to explain why

I have to do the swearing in of each witness.

So our first panel, as is the tradition of this committee, as a Federal oversight committee, the first panel, if we have Federal branch

witnesses, are always on the first panel, then other witnesses in

the proceeding panels. So if Mr. Jeffrey Jordan could come forward

and I will administer the oath.

[Witness sworn.]

Mr. SOUDER. Let the record show that the witness responded in

the affirmative.

We have a little clock here that is 5 minutes for witnesses. The

yellow light comes on at 4; as I said yesterday at the hearing, since

it is a field hearing, we will do this with a little bit of a Southern

drawl, and if you go over your 5 minutes, we are not going to have

big concerns here.

Thank you for coming today, Mr. Jordan, and we look forward to

your testimony.

STATEMENT OF JEFFREY S. JORDAN, SPECIAL AGENT-INCHARGE, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT,

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, CHARLOTTE,

NC

Mr. JORDAN. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you for providing me the opportunity to speak

with you today about U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s

efforts to combat illegal immigration in the State of North Carolina.

ICE is the largest investigative agency within the Department of

Homeland Security. Working overseas, along our borders and

throughout the Nation’s interior, ICE agents and officers are demonstrating that the newly emerged customs and immigration authorities constitute an effective tool against those who attempt or

succeed in penetrating our borders.

ICE continues to initiate enforcement programs to identify and

arrest those who pose a threat to our communities. Examples of

such programs include Operation Community Shield and Operation

Predator. Operation Community Shield identifies violent

transnational gang members that are subject to arrest, prosecution

and removal from the United States. Operation Predator focuses on

protecting our Nation’s children from sexual predators. This includes identifying and arresting aliens who have been convicted of

sex offenses against children. Transnational gang members and

child predators often engage in immigration identity and benefit

fraud to remain or work in the United States or to conceal their

true identities. ICE uses its authorities and resources on organizations and individuals who fraudulently obtain immigration benefits

to further their illegal activities.

In the last decade, the United States has experienced a dramatic

increase in the number and size of transnational street gangs such

as Mara Salvatrucha, commonly known as MS–13, one of the most

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violent gangs of its kind. These gangs have significant foreign-born

membership and are frequently involved in human and contraband

smuggling, immigration violations and other crimes with nexus to

the border. Like many street gangs, they also have a propensity toward violence. Their members commit such crimes as robbery, extortion, assault, rape and murder.

An example of this violence occurred just a few miles from this

hearing. On February 28, 2006, ICE agents, working with the

Fuquay-Varina, NC Police Department, arrested Jose Carlos

Peralta-Morales, a Surenos gang member who was observed beating an individual on the head with a baseball bat in a Wal-Mart

store. An investigation revealed that the suspect had been previously deported in May 2005. Further investigation revealed that

Peralta-Morales had been convicted of robbery and accessory afterthe-fact in connection with an incident in which gang members

robbed a returning Iraqi war veteran at gunpoint upon departing

a local restaurant with his girlfriend. In addition to State assault

charges, Peralta-Morales is facing Federal criminal prosecution for

illegally re-entering the United States.

Operation Community Shield has resulted in the arrest of over

2,400 gang members. Of those arrested, 52 have been identified as

leaders of gangs. More than half of those arrested have violent

criminal histories with arrests and convictions for crimes such as

robbery, assault, rape and murder. In North Carolina alone, ICE

agents have arrested over 160 violent street gang members in the

Charlotte, Raleigh and Winston-Salem metropolitan areas.

ICE’s efforts to protect public safety are not limited to gang enforcement. Through Operation Predator, ICE aggressively pursues

those who prey on our most vulnerable in society, our children. In

addition to our efforts in combatting the distribution and transfer

of child pornography via the Internet, Operation Predator identifies

and arrests criminal aliens that have been convicted of sex crimes

against children and are subject to removal proceedings. These sex

offenders pose a significant threat to our communities while they

remain illegally in the United States to prey on innocent children.

Operation Predator vigorously investigates all forms of child exploitation such as the smuggling of children into the country for sexual

exploitation or prostitution or the travel of U.S. citizens or lawful

permanent residents to foreign countries to engage in sex tourism

with children. These individuals often return to the United States

with photographs and videos of their criminal activity.

Operation Predator has proven to be a tremendous success. Since

the inception of Operation Predator, ICE has arrested over 7,600

child predators. In North Carolina, ICE agents have arrested 100

suspects as part of this operation. Of those arrested in North Carolina, 79 are non-U.S. citizens and 62 of these have since been deported from the United States. Operation Predator will continue to

be a priority program for ICE.

Many of those apprehended by ICE as part of Operation Community Shield, Operation Predator or other enforcement efforts procured their immigration status through fraudulent means. Immigration fraud exposes the United States to criminals and terrorists

who gain entry into this country to carry out their criminal and

dangerous agendas.

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Examples of how immigration benefits can be abused by the

criminal element can be found in investigations conducted by ICE

here in North Carolina. For instance, ICE investigated a Charlotte,

NC immigration attorney who filed fraudulent applications and petitions to assist her clients in obtaining immigration benefits. The

immigration attorney advised her clients, who included students

from Nepal, to circumvent legal immigration procedures by arranging marriages to U.S. citizens. The foreign students admitted to the

United States to pursue various educational programs were told to

marry a U.S. citizen, often a fellow student in need of additional

cash, to remain in the United States legally. Some of the foreign

students had previously failed in their attempt to obtain asylum.

The attorney did this without regard for her clients’ intentions or

criminal records. In March 2005, she pled guilty to conspiracy to

defraud the U.S. Government and was sentenced to Federal imprisonment.

ICE may initiate removal proceedings for those aliens who are

encountered and arrested for immigration violations during Operation Community Shield or Operation Predator. The alien would be

served with a notice to appear or other charging document that

would contain information on the charges being filed against him

or her. The alien would be scheduled for removal hearing before an

immigration judge who would ultimately determine whether or not

the alien would remain in the United States. Removal hearings for

North Carolina are generally conducted at an immigration court in

Atlanta. ICE generally details aliens from North Carolina at county

detention facilities under the intergovernmental service agreements. However, most aliens are transferred to detention facilities

in Georgia. Should ICE determine that an alien is not a flight risk

or a threat to public safety, the alien may be released pending the

immigration hearing. ICE carries out the final decision of the Immigration Court, whether that is an order of removal or a grant of

discretionary relief.

I want to thank the distinguished members of this committee for

the opportunity to speak before you today. I look forward to answering any of your questions.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Jordan follows:]

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Mr. SOUDER. Thank you very much.

As Congresswoman Foxx mentioned, we are increasingly seeing

the interconnection as we move to even higher percentage of crystal

meth and the meth focus moves off of the mom-and-pop gangs,

mom-and-pop, Nazi labs to the gang organizations and other distribution networks. It will be interesting as we start to pursue this,

because we have not, as a subcommittee, done much with gangs

certainly since I have been chairman. I had worked with this in my

previous life to some degree, when I was a staffer for Senator and

Congressman Coats.

So I want to ask a couple of preliminary questions about the

gangs themselves. Is gang a term that is used up to a certain age

and then it becomes a network? In other words, historically the

Bloods and the Crips have been used. At what point, if they are

50 years old, are they still considered a gang? At what point do

they become a narcotics distribution organization, a sex distribution organization?

Mr. JORDAN. I believe that gang could be used for older individuals as well. I lived in southern California at the time, and we encountered gang members that were 32 years of age. So a gang, the

term gang is defined as a collection of individuals. I think older—

I guess you could in fact call a gang a network of criminals, because in fact that is what it most likely is.

Mr. SOUDER. I know I am asking, to some degree, national questions and you, like most people in Federal agencies, have been in

multiple locations, but your experience is here. If the ICE headquarters wants to add anything additional or you want to add anything additional, feel free to do so, but I am trying to get a range,

because we often hear of family organizations distributing narcotics. In trying to discuss who the coyotes are and the criminal organizations that move individuals, in your office, how do you determine what is a gang, what is a drug criminal organization, what

is another type of criminal organization? At what point, does a

gang designation differ from your other designations of criminal organizations?

Mr. JORDAN. Well, in North Carolina, there are five top gangs in

North Carolina, the top being Mara Salvatrucha, MS–13, and

Surenos.

Mr. SOUDER. What I am trying to get at is would you have other

drug distribution networks that you would refer to as not gangs?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes. Yes, if they are not members of this identified

gang, if we have no evidence that they are in fact members of this

identified gang, they are in fact drug networks. Do we have drug

importation networks in North Carolina? Absolutely.

Mr. SOUDER. And sometimes they are referred to as families or

whatever. At what point is it a family rather than a gang? The

marks are different, there is not an initiation rite?

Mr. JORDAN. I am not familiar with those specifics, you know, determining or differentiating factors in a family. Now drug smuggling organizations, specifically Mexican drug smuggling organizations, are tight-knit networks and we have seen in North Carolina,

they typically do not trust others outside their domain, their family

members, their extended family, so the trust level is held within

there. So we say it is within the family, that is what we define as

24

the family, the extended family. I am not familiar with the differentiation in terms between a family vice a gang.

Mr. SOUDER. If there was an individual who started smuggling

young girls for prostitution and developed a network, would that

individual—how would he become defined as a gang as opposed to

somebody who was employing people on the line, being hooked together as a network?

I went through this report that showed—in other words, I understand gang symbols, gang colors, have worked with all that. What

I am trying to figure out is how do we determine what the other

groups are called, because gangs, generally speaking, while I think

some gang members may age, I do not think—I wondered whether

age is part of that or the method of distribution, they do not have

a tattoo on them.

Mr. JORDAN. We call those criminal organizations vice gangs.

There are those members that are in those traditionally recognized

gangs, whether it be predominantly U.S. citizens or foreign-born

nationals. And then there are criminal organizations, criminal networks that operate within North Carolina.

Mr. SOUDER. Where this becomes relevant for the Federal Government, as you know, the President has proposed and we have

been implementing new dollars for gangs, which really is just redistributing dollars inside the Justice Department predominantly

to focus on gangs. I am trying to figure out where those dollars

then move from. In other words, if we say, does this lead them at

the field level to people designating other organizations as gangs

that previously were not called gangs. Does it mean that—what is

the practical impact on the field when we say we are going to give

money for gangs but not for criminal organizations? You know, how

do we sort out what that actually means when they come to us?

Because we know what we want to stop, we want to stop criminal

behavior. And it seems to me, quite frankly, as somebody who has

been involved in government for some time now, that gangs almost

are a term that goes with popularity around funding streams and

whether somebody wants to promote a new program.

As an oversight committee, part of our challenge before we

plunge into the details of this is to figure out precisely what we are

talking about. We know what certain earmarks of a gang are when

it is clear cut. The question is at what point do we get to that?

Mr. JORDAN. Well, gangs, they are associated by the ritualistic—

you know, they basically have the tattoos and all the sort of inner

workings of this gang, so there is somewhat of a secretive society.

They have the hand signals, the tattoos, all that kind of stuff. They

have their own set of rules of behavior. Criminal organizations do

not have that. Their commonality is just that, the criminal behavior. The commonality in gangs is their brotherhood thinking, mentality of the gang signs, of that brotherhood type organization.

Mr. SOUDER. Have you seen—do gangs tend to be more urban?

Mr. JORDAN. In North Carolina, they are urban, but they have

suburban tentacles as well. They tend to do their crimes in urban

environments, but it is not uncommon for them to reside in the

suburban and outreaching areas.

Mr. SOUDER. And do gangs—I know the Bloods and Crips did because one of the fundamental things is they were based out of L.A.,

25

and then to try to break up the prison population, we thought it

was a bright idea to scatter them in the midwest and other places

into prisons, and then they recruited into other cities and spread

the Bloods and Crips into Chicago and Kansas City and through

the midwest. Do gangs tend to recruit more in the prisons and is

that how some of the extension goes into the tentacles out of the

urban area?

Mr. JORDAN. I do not have any direct knowledge on the recruitment procedures inside detention facilities, but outside the detention facilities, gangs fill a void that certain people are looking for,

that sense of commitment, that sense of involvement, that sense of

belonging. And they use that as a great resource, a great tool in

their recruitment procedures. They bring them on in and now they

feel welcome, now they feel attached to some organization. Basically a void that the parents do not fill. The gangs here in North

Carolina use that extensively as a tool, a sense of belonging is a

major recruitment tool.

Mr. SOUDER. Now M–13 is basically Salvadoran. Is it Salvadoran

when it hits here or are they recruiting into the Mexican population as well?

Mr. JORDAN. MS–13 gangs, by the time it gets to North Carolina,

most of them are not Central American, most of them are Mexican,

of Mexican nationality. So that detachment detaches, it just becomes more of a—and we have not found any direct links from the

leaders right here directly down to a Central American organization, so by the time they get it, it has been spun off so much that

they are in fact, the majority of MS–13 gang members are Mexican

nationals.

Mr. SOUDER. So MS–13, while they may have a national name,

do you sense that they report in to a national system or are they

regionally independent?

Mr. JORDAN. I do not sense that—I do not get that sense through

our investigations, that they report to a national, one international

leader akin to a drug smuggling or a drug lord or something. No,

I do not get that sense from the folks that we encounter here in

North Carolina.

Mr. SOUDER. Have you seen any Guatemalan gangs here?

Mr. JORDAN. I have some data on——

Mr. SOUDER. One of the things that happens is a lot of people

call people Mexican and they are not necessarily Mexican. And I

just wondered in this area, in North Carolina, whether you have

much Central American or even a lot from southern Mexico, which

is kind of a different population cluster.

Mr. JORDAN. Our ICE agents do a real good job of determining

their nationality, their country of origin. We have the percentages

here. In our gang enforcement efforts so far in North Carolina, we

have arrested and identified four Guatemalans. Again, the majority

being Mexican nationals.

Mr. SOUDER. And as far as border security question, even the

Central Americans are coming across the border. Now when you

deport someone, at San Ysidro, which is of course the main, No. 1

crossing, the last time I was there, they had just apprehended

some Brazilians who were hiding in the top of the van, who, other

than being tremendously disguised were not particularly subtle,

26

they had Brazilian shirts on and everything else, and did not seem

particularly upset about being apprehended. My understanding

was that in the case of OTMs, other than Mexicans, because a lot

of people want to send everybody back to Mexico, but if they are

not from Mexico, there is no reason that Mexico wants them either.

In this case, we detailed them and my understanding is that, hopefully, up until recently we were releasing them on their own recognizance, which unless they are pretty stupid, they do not show

back up again. But we started to detain more and ICE and the Department of Homeland Security has reacted to some degree with

funding to the pressure on OTMs.

But if you get somebody who has a criminal violation, who is an

OTM or Mexican—let us do Mexicans and OTMs, but I am going

to pursue to case of Brazil—my understanding is they get shipped

back to Brazil at our expense.

Mr. JORDAN. Well, first, if they are criminal aliens, first and foremost, we attempt to prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law

that we can in the United States, whether it be through the Federal or State or local jurisdictions. Having none of those resources

or they are not amenable to those prosecutions, they are in fact returned—they are incarcerated and they are returned to their country, their native country. Now they stay incarcerated until we get

the travel documents and all the other clearances that we need to

remove them, but they are in fact returned to their country.

Mr. SOUDER. OK. So given my question was so convoluted, let me

break it down some. So if you detained a Mexican or OTM, other

than Mexican, here in Charlotte and the crime turns out to either

not be a crime other than illegal immigration or one that you cannot prosecute, you detain them?

Mr. JORDAN. It depends on if they are in fact—they are all processed, it is not we just release them. They are all processed and

if they represent a public safety threat or a security threat, they

are in fact detained. Others, the Mexican nationals—the OTMs are

in fact detained. The Mexican nationals, if in fact they are amenable to a bond, then we do in fact set a bond for those individuals.

They can stay in custody to that point until they post that bond

and——

Mr. SOUDER. They do stay in custody until they post a bond?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, until they post a bond. It is important to note

that a bond is different than a bond in the criminal setting because

a $5,000 bond does not mean that they can go find a bail bondsman

and post the 10 percent deal. $5,000 is $5,000, they have to come

up with that. So when you look at immigration bonds, they tend

to be lower because it is a full thing.

Mr. SOUDER. How many of them show back up, what percent success rate do you have on the bonds?

Mr. JORDAN. I do not have the exact figures.

Mr. SOUDER. Roughly a third, half, two-thirds?

Mr. JORDAN. That show back up?

Mr. SOUDER. Yeah.

Mr. JORDAN. The figures that I have read in the past are about

10 percent that show back up.

Mr. SOUDER. There is not a big bail bondsman business here?

[Laughter.]

27

Mr. JORDAN. To be honest with you, the family members and others gather the currency and cashier’s checks and post those kind

of bonds for those folks.

Mr. SOUDER. Do you have any suggestions of how that—having

been in the field in multiple places, how that bond system might

be made a little more tight? In other words, not letting it go

through individuals, but have a responsible guarantee who you

know is going to be there who you can then prosecute or if people

put up money and they jump the bond, they could be prosecuted?

What suggestions would you have to make it so we have a better

than 10 percent show-up rate?

Mr. JORDAN. I think the bond system is not the issue, because

their will is not to show up. So a bond of $20,000 vice staying in

the United States, I think they in fact would sacrifice that as well.

I believe that their will to remain in the United States is greater

than any monetary bond that could be set. So whether it be $5,000

or $100,000, I think——

Mr. SOUDER. What about the will of the person who put up the

money?

Mr. JORDAN. Well, if there was a larger bond set, then obviously

less people would be able to get it.

Mr. SOUDER. But also, there is accountability, what if your person jumped bond and you posted it, you could go to jail?

Mr. JORDAN. That might be in fact—I have never really pursued

that or even thought about those procedures, but that in fact could

be an issue.

Mr. SOUDER. Now going back, if the person has a criminal charge

that could be prosecuted, you will detain them, correct?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. And then you will prosecute them.

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. And they will serve their sentence in the United

States.

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Then are they deported?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. And do we have a tracking mechanism other than

if we happen to catch them back again at the border? In other

words, let me ask the question this way, I know from Guatemala

and El Salvador, this is the complaint of Central America—Mexico

is a different problem. In Guatemala, they had, and El Salvador,

minimal gangs. The parents came to the United States to work,

kids got involved in gangs, started selling drugs because of our

drug consumption process in the United States. We put them in

prison, we ship them back to Guatemala. Guatemala now has

street thugs that are running many of their cities that they did not

have prior to them getting their drug habits in the United States.

Their police have to buy their own bullets, they have to buy their

own gas, they have a very ineffective police force and increasingly

in Guatemala and El Salvador, the gangs are taking over the countries, which are mainly kids who grew up in America, did not grow

up in that country. They are complaining to us that it is our drug

habits that have fueled the gang problem in El Salvador and Guatemala.

28

The question is how are we interacting with those governments?

Do we provide the names to them, do we help them track? I am

not proposing putting a chip in the individuals, but somehow, the

fact is that there is less than a 20 percent chance we are going to

catch somebody at a border crossing, let alone in between the border crossings, and deporting criminals, as you noted in your testimony, and several others are going to note, they come right back.

Mr. JORDAN. Well, when we deport them, if they are a known

criminal and we believe they are going to have a propensity to continue their crime, we in fact do notify the governments that we in

fact ship them to. They are involved in the process. We do not in

fact just return them, we in fact involve the governments in the

process of returning their citizens to them.

What we do in those particularly egregious offenders, we issue

what we call a green notice through Interpol. They are in fact put

on notice that those folks are coming back. So the foreign governments are involved in the process of returning them. We do not just

return them clandestinely, they do get involved.

As far as tracking them when they return to the country,

through our data base, our biometric data bases, we will know

when they are captured again, if we capture them again, we will

know even if they are using a different name. They can get a different kind of identity, different kind of identity documents even

from a different country, but through our biometric systems in our

data bases, we will know that in fact they are not who they purport

to be, they are in fact this other individual.

Mr. SOUDER. Is this data base available to State and local law

enforcement all over the country?

Mr. JORDAN. It is not at this time. Only certain law enforcement

agencies have that. Under the 287(g) program that I have in the

long version of my testimony, in North Carolina, the Mecklenburg

County Sheriff’s Department is on line for the 287(g) program.

They in fact will have access to all the data that ICE agents have

currently, and Border Patrol and CBP.

Mr. SOUDER. But a county police officer in a rural county in

North Carolina, if they stop somebody for speeding, there will not

be a popup that says this person is wanted for being a drug dealer,

rapist or whatever? It does not necessarily have to say what it is,

but a popup that would cause them to check it and detain this person.

Mr. JORDAN. They have, through our LESC, Law Enforcement

Support Center in Vermont, they have through their NCIC terminals, their VDTs, vehicle display terminals that they have in their

vehicles, they can run what we call an IAQ query. And that will

in fact tell them that this individual is on record with ICE and he

is a returned illegal alien, and all the information that we have.

Without fingerprints and biometrics that we have in place physically, you are not 100 percent sure without the fingerprints and

the photographs.

Mr. SOUDER. Right. But it is enough to detain the person.

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely.

Mr. SOUDER. And every law enforcement official has the ability

to tap into that. Whether they have the equipment to tap into it

29

is another question. But through RIS and local law enforcement

programs, they can get into the Vermont center?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, they can, anybody that has access to—and

hopefully NCIC is 100 percent of law enforcement agencies in the

United States, it will tell them that yes, this individual they have

in front of them has a detainer issued on him, it will tell them he’s

an absconder, will tell them that he is an illegal alien and been removed previously, how many times. The data is there, and the

turnaround time is a matter of minutes. It is not, you know, days,

fingerprint turnaround time, it is actually in a matter of minutes.

So the officer, the trooper can in fact get that information on the

side of the road.

I have some figures of the increase in inquiries. It is positive to

note that the North Carolina inquiries have risen substantially

over the years. The number of electronic queries—and this is what

we are talking about, the inquiries that officers and deputies do

from the departments on the side of the road—received from officials in North Carolina increased from 2,640 in fiscal year 2004 to

2,865 in fiscal 2005 and it continues to rise as we speak. It is a

tool now that is getting—I do not want to use the word popular,

but more noted, people are aware of this and they in fact are using

the system more frequently, to the point where we hire more staff

to staff our support center in Vermont.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you.

Ms. Foxx.

Ms. FOXX. Thank you, Mr. Jordan, and thank you for what you

and your colleagues are doing, we really appreciate that.

I have a couple of questions that I want to ask, to follow along

a little bit of what the chairman was saying.

What could Congress do to assist ICE and local law enforcement

personnel in taking a much stronger stand on identifying not just

gang members, but criminal aliens out there and be able to detain

them and prosecute them, and hopefully deport them, but at least

prosecute them and put them where they belong, either in jail or

somewhere else? What could we do to make that tie between the

local folks and you stronger?

Mr. JORDAN. Well, first of all, things like this, today’s hearing,

go a long way in doing that, in bringing this out in the light and

letting the public know that these problems exist and that they are

real and they are in our backyard.

Second, the program exists currently, it is under the INA Section

287(g) which is that program that has been implemented in Mecklenburg County, and it is available to other State law enforcement

agencies, and what that does is that allows, it gives the Secretary

of Homeland Security the authority to designate State and local officers as immigration officers to act on our behalf. That works most

effectively in the jail settings, because when the violator is apprehended and processed into the jails, on the intake side, his alienage

will be determined. So heretofore, they could guess, they could run

an IAQ, that data base that we previously discussed, if he is a first

time offender, he will not be in the IAQ or if he gives a false name

and has bad documents, it may not match in that system. But the

287(g) program, the deputies and the troopers will have ability, access to the biometrics, so if he says his name is Joe and his real

30

name is Bob, we are going to know. In fact, we are going to know

that he in fact has been removed 14 times, 10 times, however many

times it is. In those particular cases, we will be able to prosecute

him federally for re-entry after deportation. Some of the unfortunate accidents that occurred in Mecklenburg County with drunk

drivers, that is how we determined that the individual actually had

been removed from the United States 17 times, it was actually

through those identification processes, the data base that is in our

system.

That program is a very good system in place, it works best at the

intake side of—in a jail facility but it actually is also working in

Alabama and Florida at the trooper level, the road officers have

that authority as well. They will have to move the suspected alien

down to a location where they can run his fingerprints, but that

program and the support for that program is immense and that

really goes a long way to identify the aliens that are processed

through the court system, the jails. In North Carolina, for instance,

if the alien is identified as someone that we want to remove that

will be removed, when they are processed through their criminal

system, ICE will not remove somebody out from underneath their

criminal charges. They will in fact do their time. The detainer follows them along in their criminal incarceration career, for lack of

a better word, and then at the appropriate time, upon their release,

ICE will be looped in again and we will in fact take them and remove them from the United States.

Ms. FOXX. I guess one of the concerns that people have is how

do—we hear so much about repeat offenders and folks that, you

know you have difficulty prosecuting and getting out of the country

or keeping in jail, and trying to identify who those people are. Now

generally, we hear that folks like that are not going to make themselves known publicly, but I have constituents who have raised the

issue with me over the demonstrations that have been occurring in

the last week or so as to why did we not use the opportunity for

when all these folks were together in these demonstrations, many

of whom we know had to be illegal—why did ICE and other Federal agencies not go into those groups of people and identify who

is here illegally and arrest them. What were the reasons that we

allowed those demonstrations to go on? Now obviously if people

were here legally, they have the right to demonstrate. But what

has happened in the last few days has incensed a lot of people because the statistics we get are that up to 80 percent of the people

who are here are here illegally. So why not use that opportunity

to go in and find out who is here illegally and arrest them?

Mr. JORDAN. Well, it is a matter of priorities and national security issues. We did not know and we do not know that those folks

were here illegally. We had no idea, other than maybe ability to

speak Spanish and have Latino surnames, there is nothing to indicate to us that they are in fact here illegally.

Second, the volume, the masses of people, you know, the officers’

safety. I discussed this with Chief Daryl Stevens of CMPD and his

opinion was the same, that you do not want to venture forth with

a limited number of folks into a setting like that, because the propensity toward the violence toward officers is great.

31

Our priorities are national security issues, critical infrastructure

protection first. So when we encounter aliens that are in a position

to cause us harm through working like in a nuclear power plant

or any kind of infrastructure, water treatment plants, things like

that, military installations, as such is multiple cases here in North

Carolina, that is who we identify first and foremost. So it was a

matter of priorities and the safety of the individuals as well.

Ms. FOXX. One more question along this line. You were talking

about this Section 287(g) program and the folks in Charlotte, and

I know a little bit about that from having worked with Congresswoman Myrick about trying to increase the ability of the CharlotteMecklenburg folks to apprehend people. Do we have the capability

now, for example, in Winston-Salem, if the sheriff and the police

here wanted to gain the right or the ability to apprehend illegals

here in this area—what would be involved in doing that and is ICE

actively promoting extending your ability to do your work through

the use of local law enforcement, or are we just depending on hiring more people at the Federal level?

Mr. JORDAN. The process—that is a two part question. The process of applying for the 287(g) program is an application process, so

that sheriffs, chiefs of police, they can contact me or the Special

Agent-in-Charge in Atlanta, but most often prefer to contact me at

the North Carolina office. In fact, Kill Devil Hill’s chief of police

has contacted me regarding this program. And likewise, Gaston

County. And the process is that they are sent, the chief or the sheriff is sent an application and there are certain questions that are

asked of them regarding their ability to support the program and

then there are other questions that I have to answer on the local

level—do we have agents to support the program, and then detention or removal operations, they have questions as well, can they

support the program, meaning the increased workload. So that is

all bundled up and then sent to Washington.

Based upon the parameters and the answers that are in there,

if the approval is granted by the Assistant Secretary of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, then we craft a memorandum of

understanding, and that will delineate to everybody involved who

is responsible for what. And once that is crafted and signed by all

parties involved, then the training occurs. And the training is very

intensive, it is the exact same training that ICE agents get on all

aspects of our enforcement procedure regarding determining

alienage, their rights, responsibilities, sensitivity, issues like that.

So that is a program that individual sheriffs and chiefs can apply

and it is an informal application. They just call me and I e-mail

them the documents and then we start it from there.

And the second part of the question, I kind of forgot, but I think

it was do we have the staff to support that. I go back to my previous response of it works best in a jail environment, in a jail setting, because, for instance, Alamance County, should they be involved in this program, or Forsyth County, and they have a contract with us; once the alien is in the system there and processed

and he has done his or her time and it is time to go, they call us,

they have determined that he is in fact an illegal alien and is removable. He does not really go anywhere, the billing for his bed

32

moves over to ICE and then detention and removal, in their loop,

swings around and picks him up and begins the removal process.

So it is a way to increase enforcement, State and local officers,

that is where the rubber meets the road, everybody comes funneled

through there. That probably is the best place to determine

alienage is at the initial intake of the folks coming into the process.

The fear is that we go out or that it would create—I know the fear

is because it has been expressed to me multiple times by chiefs and

sheriffs, is that the fear in the community is that it will stifle the

crime reporting process by the illegals. But the response to that,

and the sheriffs and the chiefs that have that fear should not have

that fear because what we put out is that—and it is the case—is

that you are not going to be processed if you are not already being

arrested for some other crime. A reporting party to a crime does

not get arrested and processed to the jail. So that fear is mislaid,

it is not really appropriate. But that is actually where the rubber

meets the road, is in this program, and all the aliens that process

through the particular county jail can be identified. And that is

really the name of the game these days, is security and knowing

who is here and identifying those people that are here.

Ms. FOXX. One more comment, Mr. Chairman.

So we could effectively expand the ability to find these people

and keep them in prison if we had more local law enforcement people who were trained under this program. And that would increase

what—would allow you all to work more on the national security

issues perhaps and let us work more on gang issues, sexual predators and maybe more common law issues, where the health and

safety of local citizens is involved and allow you all to work on the

national security issues. Would that be safe to say?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, ma’am. And as well, it allows everyone to identify everyone that has come in contact with law enforcement, so we

would in fact know who they are here and if they have not been

in contact with us and they are in fact illegal, at least we would

establish a base line, I call it a base identity. The first time contact, his name and data or her name and data gets put into the

system. So we would have in fact a base line to identify everyone

that is here illegally that has come through the criminal justice

system in some fashion.

The caveat is only those that are processed through the intake

side of the jails.

Ms. FOXX. Thank you very much.

Mr. SOUDER. I had a really unusual story I wanted to blend in

with—the difficulty of what we are facing here is that last fall we

were having weekly meetings trying to figure out how to work on

an immigration bill and coming to basically very little progress at

that point, but back in my hometown, I talked to an individual who

was very upset. They had several small children, they were trying

to make their house payments but her husband had just been deported through DHS and she wondered how to get him back and

what procedures to go through. And finally I got frustrated and I

said well, you know, he can just walk across the border, it is not

like he is likely to get caught, and she said well, he does that all

the time, but the speculation is that you guys in Congress are

going to pass an amendment that says if they get caught a second

33

time after deportation, they are not going to be eligible for the

work permits or the citizenship track. So he is waiting down in

Mexico to see what you guys do. Which was interesting because the

community was about 9 months ahead of what we were doing, trying to adjust their behavior. By the way, it is a pretty good amendment and if people are getting deported right now, they best not

come back in, because we are likely to put something like that in.

But it shows the difficulty of this because we are sitting here trying

to figure out how to implement it and do it and those who are actually coming for jobs, have extended families, have often been here

for many years, have houses, all sorts of things, are calculating

based on what we are saying here today and how we are working

and it is an interesting process.

I had a couple of technical questions on government structure.

The FBI has been tasked to do gangs work in particular. How do

you inter-relate with them? Do you deal only with gangs that are

illegal, and if they are working with a gang and run into somebody

illegal, how does ICE coordinate with FBI?

Mr. JORDAN. We coordinate almost—well in North Carolina on a

daily basis with that. We vet our targets, they vet their targets. We

work collectively on Operation Community Shield, we work very

well with them. We just do not discriminate gangs, foreign-born

gangs because gangs also are comprised—gangs comprised of U.S.

citizens also commit crimes that ICE has the authorities and the

abilities to investigate—drug smuggling, money laundering, things

like that. So we work hand in hand with the FBI in that process

and that really is a very good process, we work together very well.

Again, their philosophy is our philosophy, we will prosecute them

to fullest extent of the law for Federal violations. Should they not

be amenable to those, then ICE uses in our tool kit our removal

process. So it is not against the law to be a member of a gang.

Mr. SOUDER. So there is a gang working in North Carolina that

is doing drug smuggling and includes both citizens and non-citizens?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. SOUDER. Is it DEA, you or FBI, and how do you do that?

Mr. JORDAN. All three.

Mr. SOUDER. Does one of you take the lead? Whoever starts the

case?

Mr. JORDAN. The lead is basically determined by lots of factors,

who has the initial information, who has the best informants, who

has the best case, but we all pitch in and play as equal partners.

In the Federal level, there are no second chairs, everybody has an

equal chair at the table. And here in North Carolina, I am very

proud to say that everybody gets along very well. John Emerson

and Kevin Kendrick both are not only professional friends, but personal friends of mine as well. We get along very well and the

agents work together very well as well as with the State and locals.

Mr. SOUDER. You said this could be daily, is it instantaneous?

For example, you would not take somebody down without checking

with the other agencies; when you are doing controlled deliveries,

you are working with the other agencies so you do not wind up

tripping over each other?

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Mr. JORDAN. Yes. In controlled deliveries, we have a vetting process that takes place, so when we do controlled deliveries, we are

in constant contact with, for instance on drugs, controlled deliveries, DEA. In fact, our process has involved that we have to formalize that contact and that vetting process, so that we do not

cross paths. First and foremost is officer safety. We do not want to

be going out there setting up on something that they are setting

up on and that, first and foremost, is our primary concern. Second,

we do not want to cross paths and step into the middle of something they are doing; likewise, they do not want to do that with us,

to ruin the investigation and long-term effects.

We are not after the street level folks. The best way to destroy

an organization is two mechanisms—one, take off the agency leadership and, two, take off their financial funding mechanisms, which

is the asset seizures and forfeitures. You cutoff the way that they

get the money, because every crime, absent of a few, the real reason they commit it is for money, for financial gain. So ICE has

learned a long time ago that on the Customs side, and that is what

we brought to the table, is that is how you dismantle an organization, is cutoff their financial backbone. So we collectively work together like that and it works very well.

Mr. SOUDER. So you are doing deconfliction too with Treasury,

with Secret Service and with local law enforcement?

Mr. JORDAN. Absolutely. On our counterfeit document side, our

Operation Doc that we have out there in the western part of North

Carolina, we do the same as well. They are partners in the program and we do those deconfliction processes as well.

Mr. SOUDER. Do you have any further questions?

Ms. FOXX. No.

Mr. SOUDER. Well, thank you very much for your testimony. We

may have some additional written questions as well to fill this out

a little bit. Thank you very much.

Is everybody from the second panel also at the microphones? The

second panel is State Representative Dale Folwell; Thomas Keith,

district attorney, 21st Judicial District; Debra Conrad-Shrader,

vice-chair, Forsyth County Board of Commissioners; and Brandon

Holland, Forsyth County director, Zero Armed Perpetrators [ZAP]

Program.

If each of you would stand and raise your right hand so I can

swear in each of the witnesses.

[Witnesses sworn.]

Mr. SOUDER. Let the record show that each of the witnesses responded in the affirmative.

We thank you for your testimony today and being willing to participate. And we are going to start with Representative Folwell.

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STATEMENTS OF DALE FOLWELL, A STATE REPRESENTATIVE,

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA; THOMAS J. KEITH, DISTRICT

ATTORNEY, 21ST PROSECUTORIAL DISTRICT, NORTH CAROLINA; DEBRA CONRAD-SHRADER, VICE-CHAIR, FORSYTH

BOUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS; AND BRANDON HOLLAND, FORSYTH COUNTY DIRECTOR, ZERO ARMED PERPETRATORS [ZAP] PROGRAM

STATEMENT OF DALE FOLWELL

Mr. FOLWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You have often heard the term that some people cannot see the

forest for the trees and I am sort of a tree person, so a lot of the

information you are going to get from me today has to do with

what we deal with not only on the State level, but in some respects

through our public education system.

Illegal immigration is the biggest unfunded mandate that we face

at the State level. And it is having a very big effect on obviously

our public health, public safety and public education systems. We

are facing crises in North Carolina in all those three areas. You

used the term earlier ‘‘steroids,’’ illegal immigration introduces

steroids to that crisis that we face in those three areas.

I would say that North Carolina is somewhat unique in that we

are trying to drive down the cost of living and doing business in

this State, but yet we are facing a trade war, we are facing a crisis

in literacy and now we are facing a war with the illegal immigrants. You have often heard all the information regarding how it

is affecting our public health systems. Let me see if I can educate

you a little bit about how it is affecting our local school system.

Our local superintendent—this is spring break week for public

schools, and he regrets not being able to be here today, but I was

able to speak with him. In his tenure, which is I guess about 11

years, we have gone from 3 ESL centers in Forsyth County to 43.

ESL is English as a Second Language. From 3 three to 43. I do not

even like the term ‘‘English as a Second Language’’ because the

statute in North Carolina says that English is the official language

in North Carolina. Why do we need to even have an ESL mnemonic?

Second, and this is a staggering figure, Mr. Chairman—from

1994 to 2006, which is 12 years, our Hispanic population has gone

from less than 1 percent to 15 percent in that period of time. It is

dramatic enough except for the fact that we are the 124th largest

school system in the United States, with almost 50,000 people.

I want to be very clear in pointing out something, I am not one

who always looks at people who are Hispanic as being illegal. I do

not always consider people who do not speak English as being illegal, but we do know there is a high correlation between those two

things.

This is also affecting our community college system and our public university system to some degree. It is estimated that over 35

percent of the people taking non-accredited courses in our community college system are here illegally. They pay—we are supposed

to be charging those folks an out-of-State tuition, but they stay the

in-State, non-accredited rate.

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The other thing that I wanted to add is that illegal immigration

has also introduced something that is going to be very hard for

North Carolina to overcome, and that is our underground economy.

If you were to speak to our Secretary of Revenue in North Carolina, he would tell you that our underground economy—that is, the

folks that are not paying taxes on the business transactions in the

State—is another one of the most epidemic problems facing North

Carolina.

The other effect it is having is on wages. There was a report done

recently called ‘‘Falling Jobs and Falling Wages,’’ and it talks about

the living wages of North Carolinians. The effects of illegal immigration are having a depressing effect on the wages of this State,

especially those at the lower end of our economic scale, which is

forcing more people out of work and more people onto the social

welfare systems of our State.

I want to make a couple of editorial comments if I may, Mr.

Chairman. I really thought long and hard about what is different

about this group of immigrants versus the immigrants that came

in in the 20th century. And what I have come to realize is that

what is very different about this is that the group of immigrants

that came into this country in the 20th century were evangelical

about bonding and assimilating into this society. And I think that

is what is very different about the group of immigrants that we

have in North Carolina today, especially the illegal immigrants.

I think it is very important that we understand that this issue

affects us from the brain, from the heart, from the stomach and

from the pocketbook. And from the pocketbook standpoint, illegal

immigration introduces cheap labor into our State. And cheap labor

benefits few, but the rest of the taxpayers in this State are paying

for the effects of illegal immigration.

I think it is important and I think with your help we can do this,

and Congresswoman Foxx has obviously set the tone on this. We

have to set the tone, set the strategy and set the goals for how we

are going to deal with illegal immigration in North Carolina, both

at the State level, the local level and how you can help us at the

Federal level.

I think that North Carolinians are ready for an answer on this

problem and I think some of the answers that you might be able

to help us with locally that can help our problem are; No. 1, I believe that we need to cut funding to Mexico as it relates to the

amount of money that is being wired out of North Carolina and the

other 49 States in this country from all the wire transfer agencies

in this State and likewise throughout the country. It is estimated

that over $50 billion a year is being wired out of the United States

to Mexico and that funding should be offset toward the amount of

foreign aid that we give to that country.

Second and most importantly, we need a deportation center in

Winston-Salem. Across the street you have a jail, which your ICE

agents would probably certify is one of the best values on the East

Coast. And we have room in that jail that we could rent space out

for a deportation center. We have an airport that is 3 miles from

where we are sitting which could greatly utilize air traffic. After we

deport people, instead of going out and paying for people to get on

private air carriers in some cases, actually have airplanes going out

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of Smith-Reynolds Airport to the countries of origin where these

people need to be deported to. That would drive more revenue and

better utilize assets that the State taxpayers, the local taxpayers

and the Federal taxpayers have already purchased. That is why we

need a deportation center in this area.

Third, I think we need to empower local law enforcement to start

detaining illegal immigrants in this area. As you know, North

Carolina—and I want to say this very clearly—is the fastest growing State in the United States. Our growth rate has now exceeded

the California growth rate—California, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona and Florida, in terms of our growth rate of illegal immigrants.

The other three things that I would like to add is that I would

like for you to support any Federal legislation that comes through

Washington that would say that in order for any child born in the

United States to have citizenship status, that they have to have at

least one parent who is a legal resident of the United States. That

would help us dramatically.

I think that when you start looking at the issue of business and

how this affects business, I think you also have to look at not only

business, but also other employers of illegal immigrants. I think

that you also need to look at the non-profits, who may or may not

be employing illegal immigrants, and I think you also need to look

at the government, whether it be the Federal, State or local government, who, through coincidence or whatever, may be employing illegal immigrants also.

I will close by saying this, Mr. Chairman, that in my study of

economic history over the last—I have not studied it for 200 or 300

years, but I have looked at economic history for the last 200 or 300

years, there are two things that countries really never can survive—a devaluation of its language or a devaluation of its currency.

And I would ask you to help us as North Carolinians and as citizens of this community, to help us deal with this problem.

I will be glad to answer any questions you might have.

Oh, may I add one more thing?

Mr. SOUDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FOLWELL. On the public education system, one thing that I

want to add is that we do have double standards, and some of

these double standards that we have relate to some of the policies

that are put on us by the Federal Government. For example, if a

child who is here illegally wants to enter our public school system,

all they have to do is produce a Bible with the child’s name and

date of birth written on the front page. Where a lot of other people,

in order to get people in the public school system have to produce

a raised-seal birth certificate and immunization records. That is basically unfair and that is a double standard. North Carolinians are

very forgiving, but we do not really tolerate double standards very

well.

Second, there is all kinds of anecdotal information about the effect that illegal immigration is having on our public education system. Our public education system is—we are maxing out, we are

getting in violation of building codes because of the amount of mobile classrooms that we are having to put onsites in order to deal

with this problem.

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Another piece of anecdotal information is that most everything

that comes out of our public school system has to come out on two

sheets of paper bilingually, another cost.

And last, our son is in middle school and all the glossary and all

the terminology of this textbook has to be done bilingually also.

This textbook weighs 8 pounds. You have all heard reports, I see

some young folks in the room who have had kids in public schools

who the kids themselves weigh 75 pounds and they are carrying 50

pounds worth of book bag every day to school. I know that is not

a big deal to a lot of people, but I know that the price of this textbook had to be increased in order for the answers to be produced

bilingually.

So with that, I want to once again thank you for coming and listening to our concerns and I hope that I can answer any questions

that you might have.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you.

Our next scheduled witness is Mr. Thomas Keith, district attorney, 21st Judicial District. Thank you very much.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS J. KEITH

Mr. KEITH. Mr. Chairman, thank you.

I am the guy that does 98 percent of the cases that go through

the court system. We send about 2 percent across the street here

to the Federal Government. I am the district attorney of Forsyth

County, 320,000 people with Winston-Salem as the center.

I will not paint the somewhat rosy picture that I heard from Mr.

Jordan, the ICE agent. I will tell you that what is going on here

as well as what is happening on the street. As recently as two

nights ago, I rode with an interdiction team looking for license

plates, headlights out, what-have-you, 10 at night. We stopped a

car for having no tag, it was from Arizona. Open up the door, there

are nine non-English speaking Hispanics crammed into the car,

probably a phony registration rented to a third party. Obviously

proceros being brought in from across the border into western

Forsyth County.

What did we do about it? We did nothing because we do not have

the ability to do anything about that. We have no jail beds to put

felons, more or less people who are just passing through who have

made illegal entry into the country.

We have three of the hardest working ICE agents for 24 counties, the middle district of North Carolina, that probably spend 75

percent of their time on my cases because they are right across the

street. I meet with them weekly in our ZAP review, which is our

gun program. And we watch the increasing number of illegal immigrants with weapons, up to 24–25 percent of the cases we review

now are all by Hispanics.

We do not know who these people are, we have no jail beds here

for ICE and if you want to open up the 10th floor, then Ms.

Shrader, Conrad-Shrader, will tell us what a floor of the jail will

cost. Remember, to have one 24-hour a day, 7 day a week law enforcement personnel takes over five people. So if you want to staff

the jail 24/7 365 days a year, it is very expensive. The prison construction cost now in North Carolina is $79,000 a bed. The general

rule of prisons is it costs about a third that much per year to run

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it. The current Department of Corrections [DOC] cost is $22,500 a

year.

We do not have anywhere to put people, in State prison, in our

local facility. We can hardly get prison people now to work in a

Forsyth County Detention Center. It does not pay that well, it is

risky, it is an open facility, as is this room, they are not locked up

in individual cells. ICE, their local people, their biggest cry here is

for a local facility, they need some place to put people just for the

people that I want them to try, let alone the people that are buzzing down Interstate 40 at 10 at night.

Let me get back to my notes, you have my revised remarks. I will

quickly go through what we feel the problems are here.

The gangs are about 57 percent Hispanic based on WinstonSalem Police Department statistics. The DEA and the National Intelligence Center have produced monographs referred to in the first

page of my remarks where they say ‘‘Mexican criminal groups are

the primary transporters of powdered cocaine.’’ ‘‘Mexican criminal

groups are the dominant wholesale distributors of marijuana.’’ And

‘‘most of the methamphetamine available in North Carolina is produced in Mexico’’ and of course, transferred here.

As late as March 2006, National Drug Threat Assessment continues with that vein. So most of this stuff is coming in from across

the border.

The presence of gangs here has grown since probably 1995 when

I got interested in this. We are seeing consolidation, some of the

smaller gangs are being subsumed. There is leadership, centralization now, there are people coming in from California into North

Carolina. We are not at the California gang stage, but we can see,

the leaders here can see the next stage. Probably after the centralization, you will have entry into the retail drug market.

The last time I had a shakeup in my retail drug market was in

the early 1990’s when we took out a lot of local drug retailers.

Their void was filled by Jamaicans, Dominicans and others. We

had 44 murders that year. Winston-Salem had the 17th highest

crime rate in the United States. And after 10 years, the sheriff and

I, the chief, have driven it down and we are the lowest crime rate

of any of the major cities in this State. We dropped to 79th.

Now I look out on the horizon and I see this consolidation of

gangs and the specter of methamphetamine coming. I went to California, got trained by DEA for a week out there on methamphetamine labs, learned that it has now replaced in California crack cocaine, which used to be a tremendously addictive drug. We have a

drug treatment court here, I can get about 60 percent of the people

off of cocaine in the year and the success rate is about 7 percent

in methamphetamine in California. So I have this coming here. The

National DA’s conference I go to every year, a girl from Guam, a

lady from Hawaii, California—what is your biggest problem—methamphetamine. And again, it affects the crime rate.

The national rate of incarceration from 1920 to 1980 was about

a flat 110 per 100,000; cocaine hit, powdered cocaine hit, by 1986

it was up to 425 per 100,000. It is now 725 per 100,000 with crack

cocaine. What is meth going to do to the cost at the county jail over

there, where we are using a tremendous amount of our resources?

What is the cost to the State prison system? As it has grown, the

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prison system in this State has increased its share of the budget

pie by 17 percent in the last 20 years and the education piece of

the pie has gone down 17 percent. So we are putting people in jail

at $22,500 a year and it is coming straight out of the school system.

The increase of these gangs will bring nothing but more drugs.

You cannot say drugs without saying gangs, without saying Hispanic aliens. That is what the DEA and the National Drug Intelligence Center monographs will tell you.

Here, in a small southern, mid-size town, we have seen in a

chart that I prepared, you have a copy of it, in drug trafficking,

which is a State crime, from 1998, Hispanics, according to the Department of Corrections, who keep their records by ethnicity, so

that would be Hispanic/Latino, they go, in 1998, they suddenly appear as seven people from Forsyth County going to prison for drug

trafficking, until 2005, we are now over half of the drug traffickers

that I send to prison are Hispanic. The prison itself, the North

Carolina Department of Corrections, which has a very low Hispanic

population, they are under-represented in the State Department of

Corrections; in the area of drug trafficking, they have 33 percent

of the entries this year.

The value, the amount of drugs coming into this community,

again a fairly mid-size southern area, according to the Sheriff’s Department statistics in 2003, for the last 6 months, they picked up

about $950,000 in value of drugs, $350,000 cash. The next year, it

was $9.3 million, a tenfold increase in drugs and $432,000 in cash.

2005, it has gone up to $40 million in street level of drugs and

$962,000 in cash was confiscated.

The Winston-Salem Police Department, much larger jurisdic- tion—2003, $762,000 worth of drugs, $136,000 in cash was confiscated. The next year it goes up ten-fold, $8.6 million and

$242,000 in cash. 2005, drops down a little bit because the big

Texas case is not included, to a mere $5.2 million and $485,000 in

confiscated cash.

The purity of the drugs has gone way up. I have some photographs. Unfortunately I guess if I introduce them, I cannot get

them back and we do not have the budget to make these copies at

$10 each. I can show them to you at some other time, but we just

cannot make copies and hand them in.

There are firewalls of cars where kilos as brought in, they are

in the driveshafts, they are in the air cleaner, they are in the frame

of the car, they are ingenious in how these groups bring the drugs

in.

The price of drugs is driven down. I have practiced law here 35

years. In the Federal courts in the 1980’s, I represented a lot of

people in drug cases and in getting prepared for the hearing today,

I was amazed at the purity of cocaine, which is way up there, almost pure stuff on the street. It used to be 5, 10, 15 percent because everybody would step on it; that is, you would cut it. You

would bring it in from California where they cut it two-to-one, I

would get it here in Winston-Salem, cut it two-to-one, it is down

to 25 percent pure. The stuff on the street is outrageously pure, because there is so much of it. The price is down. The police I talk

to, it used to be I ran a grand jury here for about 5 years in the

41

early 1990’s, investigative grand jury, parallel grand jury with the

U.S. Attorney’s Office, and it was really tough to find drugs. We

have officers here that are sitting out with a pair of field glasses

looking at a motel and watch 41 kilos being unloaded from a car

in broad daylight at 11 a.m. A local policeman can just drive down

the street and walk up to some person on the street and say where

can I get some weed, marijuana. Well, go see this guy, they go

there and they pull out several hundred pounds of marijuana, no

wire tap, no Title 3, no surveillance, just walk out there. It is everywhere and not hard to get.

Language barrier here, we have a couple of officers who speak

Spanish—maybe three or four. One of the difficulties is if I send

Ms. Holland in, who does not speak Spanish, but if she did, if she

was one of my Spanish agents and I have a wire on her, they tell

me that they do not have anybody who is Spanish who can listen

to the other end of the wire. So we have to have a key word if they

get in trouble to tell the officers who do not speak Spanish, hey,

come in here, I am in trouble. We do not have translators in court.

If I have a murder case and I have to try five Hispanic people for

drug trafficking, I have to have an interpreter for every one of

them. It is costing the State an enormous amount of money. It

slows my trials down two or three times, and we are the 48th worst

funded court system in the United States. And I am the third worst

staffed prosecutor’s office in the State. We are doing all we can.

And then here comes the third wave. We need some help. We

need resources. Every time I go and speak to a public group, I say

who wants me to get tougher on crime. Every Kiwanis, every

Moose, every Elk hand goes up. And then I ask them who wants

to pay for it. And there is palsy in the left arm. [Laughter.]

We need a lot of help. We need, according to law enforcement,

probably do away with the three strikes for businessmen before

they are incarcerated. Evidently there is a rule that says that you

can go out there twice and we will warn you and we will fine you

if you are hiring illegal aliens. They ought to be at risk of going

to jail the first time. That would do more good than probably anything. We need more U.S. attorneys, they cannot take all the cases

I send them. ICE cannot take all the cases I send them. We do not

have enough prosecutors. If I get a good prosecutor, the feds steal

them. Give us a supplement so I can keep my people. Probably four

or five people in the Middle District came from my office, they certainly pay better and the work is about a fraction of what you have

to do in State court.

Probably the two key things is you either close your borders to

drugs or you put massive amounts of resources into the State and

Federal criminal justice system.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you for that optimistic forecast. [Laughter.]

The next witness is Ms. Debra Conrad-Shrader.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Keith follows:]

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STATEMENT OF DEBRA CONRAD-SHRADER

Ms. CONRAD-SHRADER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We certainly appreciate the subcommittee’s interest in helping

State and local Governments to deal with the devastating effects

of illegal immigration. This is certainly an issue that is very much

on the minds of our citizens here in Forsyth County. And I might

add, Mr. Chairman, I have been a Forsyth County Commissioner

for 12 years and have the opportunity to speak to citizens all across

Forsyth County and I can tell you that this is the most serious

issue we have faced and is the No. 1 issue on the minds of the citizens here in Forsyth County.

Immigration, particularly by Hispanic people, is not new to

North Carolina. Tobacco was, and still is, a very labor-intensive

crop. Immigrants have been coming here for many years to work

in tobacco. It may be that the agricultural tradition was at least

a bridgehead for the subsequent immigration problems we are now

facing, that has made North Carolina among the States most heavily impacted by the problems of immigration. But I would also add

that I think in recent years, there have been other factors that

have certainly stimulated illegal immigration here in North Carolina and made us a No. 1 destination State.

For one, we have had very easy access to North Carolina drivers

license and we have been far too late in trying to tighten those requirements. We have certainly had a proliferation of forged documentation here in Forsyth County to where if they cannot get

North Carolina drivers license, they can easily pay for forged documents.

We also have generous benefits here in North Carolina, far more

than Federal requirements. And as you mentioned, the illegal immigration population is very astute in figuring out where certain

States are that they can get better benefits than other States.

And last, we have certainly had a lack of enforcement here in

North Carolina in all aspects, whether it is the speaking of English

as our State language, whether it is in punishment of businesses

that are hiring illegal immigrants and paying them under the

table, and we certainly lack the authority to apprehend illegal immigrants at the local level.

Immigration has certainly caused an increase in the needs for

local public services. As representative Folwell mentioned, particularly in the areas of public education, health services, social services and law enforcement.

Fifteen percent of our students in our public school system are

Hispanic and over half of them do not have English as their first

language. Our social services case load is about 19 percent Hispanic, which is also a substantial increase in recent years. In our

public health department, 38 percent of our clients are Hispanic.

And at a local outpatient health care facility, at least 34 percent

of the patients are Hispanic. And in the prisoners in our county

jail, 11 percent are currently Hispanic.

As this subcommittee knows, it is often very difficult for us to

differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants, or to identify

the children of illegal immigrants who are entitled to citizenship.

And in most public service venues, we are prohibited from even

asking about citizenship.

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With many services, it would be illegal for us at the local level

or State level or else morally indefensible to withhold a service

anyway. The laws that tie our hands at the local level need to be

changed.

And I would mention at this point that I personally support Representative Sue Myrick’s attempts at Federal legislation which

would give us more local authority and local money to address this

problem.

Most estimates of the percentage of illegals seem to be entirely

anecdotal. Based on the most reliable information we can get, it

would be, at minimum, 50 percent of the immigrants in this county

are illegal. Most people place that estimate at much higher and I

would say that Representative Foxx’s percentage of 80 percent is

probably more accurate.

If we even use the conservative estimate of 50 percent, illegals

are annually costing the county government over $4 million in education, and I have been told at least $100 million in new school

construction over the next decade can be directly attributed to illegal immigration. Almost a million dollars in our public health department services, a million dollars again in local law enforcement

and $575,000 in social services. As I said, this is based on 50 percent rates, so I would not be surprised if the costs are almost double what I have just quoted.

The problem of illegal immigration is very vexing for us. We certainly respect the Hispanic people who come here legally to work

and make a new life for themselves. We also understand the desperation that causes people to come here illegally. But we are a

Nation of laws and our laws and policies concerning immigration

must be practical, and they must be followed. Our citizens are

angry and they are very concerned about illegal immigration.

At the local level, we need help with the impacts of immigration,

period, not just illegal immigration. If it is sound national policy to

encourage and allow massive immigration to provide manpower for

this economy—and I am not sure that is necessarily the case—then

we need help in providing services for this mass influx of new people. The impacts on us are really the same whether the immigrants

are new citizens, guest workers or illegals.

If the national government needs help to enforce our immigration

laws, we are glad to cooperate and ready to help. But we will need

financial assistance. Our local law enforcement and justice systems

already have their hands full.

In recent years, local governments have had to make extraordinary adjustments to accommodate immigration. We are willing to

do our part, but we are impacted so dramatically by Federal policy,

or Federal indecision, as we have seen most recently last week. We

need Federal help and we need it as quickly as possible.

And I would be happy to answer any questions.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you.

Our last witness this morning is Ms. Brandon Holland.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Conrad-Shrader follows:]

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STATEMENT OF BRANDON HOLLAND

Ms. HOLLAND. Good afternoon. Mr. Chairman, subcommittee

members, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

Again, my name is Brandon Holland. I am the director of the

Zero Armed Perpetrators Program in the Forsyth County DA’s Office. And to kind of give you an idea of what I do on a daily basis,

every case involving a firearm, firearm seizure, ammunition seizure, casing seizure or projectile seizure in Forsyth County comes

to me.

We hold a weekly meeting with State and local and Federal law

enforcement agencies to determine the best form for prosecution,

whether that be State or Federal. Because of that, I review every

gun case. And our gun cases involving illegal aliens has increased

dramatically, from 14.8 percent to 28.7 percent. And because of the

increasing gang problems here in the county and North Carolina,

I am also a reserve deputy with the Forsyth County Sheriff’s Office

and am now working, along with my duties in the DA’s office with

ZAP, I am also working as almost a full time deputy involving gang

cases, working with the local departments here, specifically working on trying to track and identify gang members.

As Mr. Keith said, you cannot talk about gang members without

talking about drugs and you cannot talk about drugs without talking about Hispanics. I will give you three figures that are staggering to me. The Hispanic population growth in Forsyth County from

1990 to 2000 was approximately 831 percent and it is having a

great impact on our community and our law enforcement. We just

cannot handle the volume.

Out of the 18 validated gangs in Forsyth County, 11 of them are

Hispanic. We have a group called MAGNET made up of local law

enforcement that have a criteria, a gang definition and we have

very strict guidelines to validate gang members. And out of those

18 gangs, 11 of them are Hispanic.

Approximately 25 percent of the cases or gang members sent or

submitted to Operation Community Shield through ICE came from

the Middle District of North Carolina. Out of that, five agencies in

the Middle District submitted those entries and three of them came

from Forsyth County.

I will give you three incidents of violent crimes that happened

within the past couple of years. First of all, a shooting that occurred during a birthday party for a 6-year old girl. I can refer to

page 26 of your handout. Here is a picture taken about 30 minutes

before the shooting occurred. Words were exchanged earlier in the

day between two rival gangs. One gang was in the backyard of the

party, this is this group right here. The other gang decided to drive

by, knowing they were there, and began to shoot. There were approximately 40 rounds fired, 12 rounds entered the house and the

only person that stopped a bullet was the 6-year old girl, ended up

lodged in her arm. There were multiple firearms recovered but nobody has been charged because they had already fled to Mexico.

The second case is one of an off-duty officer with the Sheriff’s Office, working in a Hispanic nightclub. Fights began in a parking lot

nearby. The gang member shot another Hispanic male at point

blank range, continued to shoot once he fell to the ground. And at

that point, the gang member began to flee the area. And as he was

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fleeing and being chased by law enforcement officers, he turned

and fired several shots at the officers. And that person is currently

awaiting a Federal sentence and he is illegal.

The third, and I think most telling, is one that happened in January of this year. One gang member—excuse me—gang began to

shoot into an apartment of another gang member, because of an

earlier confrontation, saw him come to the window and then leave

the window. Therefore, they began to shoot. Unfortunately, multiple rounds were discharged hitting a woman in another apartment, a mother of small children and she is paralyzed for life. At

that point, an illegal alien was charged and is awaiting trial. The

co-defendant fled to Mexico, who was also illegal, to avoid prosecution. And another possible co-defendant who we have not been able

to locate was a ZAP offender, so a prior gun offender, and was previously deported in April 2005.

As I said, the gun cases involving Hispanics have increased from

14.8 percent to 28.7 percent. We have had an increase in drive-by

shootings. We have had an increase in fights within the schools.

Even if it is over a girl, we have two rival gangs fighting. That is

a familiar occurrence unfortunately. They are resorting to anything

they can get their hands on—baseball bats, knives. And unfortunately, we are seeing an increase in assault type weapons—AK–

47s, so on.

We work very closely with the ICE agents, as you have heard

today. Unfortunately, because of the sheer volume, I am pre-screening a lot of the cases that they get. They are just absolutely overwhelmed. We have now started focusing on re-entry aggravated felons, specifically pertaining to gun cases. Actual possession gun

cases, not cases that we have to prove who owned or possessed the

firearm, and gang members.

Some of the issues that ICE is facing today, as you have heard

today, jail beds. For adults, right now, there are no permanent beds

in the Forsyth County Law Enforcement Detention Center. They

have temporary beds if they are necessary, but those numbers are

decreasing because of over-crowding. For juveniles, and under 18 is

a juvenile in the Federal system, a juvenile under the age of 18,

not needing to be detained, with no criminal conviction, they are

released to a family member and given a hearing date in Atlanta.

And you have heard the statistics on how often they show. Under

18, they must be detained, the ICE agent must take them to a juvenile facility and the two juvenile facilities are south of Atlanta

and Houston, and that must be done at the time of arrest. Under

18 with a criminal conviction, and as I found out today, if you are

a gang member, you have to go to Pennsylvania in the juvenile facility. And that is the only facility that I am aware of that takes

juveniles. So jail beds are an increasing problem for ICE.

In the schools, talking about the schools, you have heard about

the school incidents. Unfortunately, some of the recruiting for the

Hispanic gang members is starting as early as elementary school

and it is running rampant in the middle schools. Many parents and

siblings of some of these kids are already gang members, so they

are being raised in a house full of gang members.

I was teaching in a local elementary school in a rural area here

in town and an art teacher ran up to me with a drawing that a

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second grader had done. That drawing was of a gang tattoo and we

asked the child how she knew about this gang tattoo, and it was

tattooed on her father’s arm from prison.

There is a disruption now, from what I understand, in the ESO

classes because of the gang members, they do not want to be in

school, they do not want to be in class, so they disrupt the students

that do want to learn. Kids act up in school now to get transferred

to the proper school where all their other gang member friends are

and if they do not end up in that school or they end up getting

kicked out of school or expelled, they end up in the community and

become society and law enforcement’s problem.

In summary, you know, we need resources. That is the bottom

line for local, State and Federal agencies. Fingerprints, we need to

fingerprint everybody that comes through the jail. Right now in

Forsyth County, we are not fingerprinting for Class 1 misdemeanors, meaning DWIs, driving while license revoked and no operator’s

license. We need gang legislation enhancements for gang crimes.

We need harsher penalties and we need jail beds.

If you guys have any questions or anything that I can answer.

[The prepared statement of Ms. Holland follows:]

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Mr. SOUDER. I thank you all for your testimony.

I just want to say this for the record, as a conservative Republican who does not favor tax increases. The Federal Government is

more broke than you are. There is not any other way to say that.

Our debt—if you take county debt, State debt, township debt, city

debt, all that together and then you have to multiply it by about

7 or 10 or who knows what, to get our debt. And our obligations

are greater than your obligations because of Social Security, Medicare, pension expectations, much like the private sector is going

into, at the Federal level. The only difference is we can print

money. What that means is we can give you more money, but we

are going to print more which means you are going to pay for it

through inflation which devalues your own money.

There is not money growing on trees to address this. It is a matter of prioritizing and trying to figure out how to do it. And as a

conservative Republican, one of the traps that we have gotten into

is we oppose tax increases at every single level of government. If

I favored tax increases, it would be at the local level because I do

not want the Federal Government determining what I do. So when

you ask us to cover your local costs, it means you are going to get

more regulation from us, you are going to get more guidelines, you

are going to get unfunded mandates along with the mandates. That

is the dilemma we are facing here.

Now that said, clearly there are some things that fall in the Nation purview. One is the border policies. But like North Carolina,

Indiana had a really lousy driver’s license policy and that fueled

immigrants coming in. Like North Carolina, Indiana had a lower

unemployment rate, which brought immigrants in. Like North

Carolina, my home State of Indiana did not find the people on welfare particularly wanted to pluck chickens, ducks, clean restrooms,

they did not want to particularly stay in certain manufacturing

places. In many cases we could stop the immigrant flow, but the

plants will just move to Mexico because it is fine to talk about

higher wages, but in an international marketplace, you cannot

compete on the Internet or elsewhere with the higher wages. So we

are on the horns of a very difficult dilemma.

Furthermore, having worked with the drug issues most of my career, we cannot find the drug dealers to deport them and when we

deport them, they come back. The idea of deporting 12 million people just is not fathomable right now. So we are trying to figure out

a very complicated way to try to address this. At the same time,

I do not think there is much disagreement, at least on the surface,

that you cannot have a safe country without better control of the

borders. Because it does not do any good for us to get a deportation

center here if all they do is walk right back. We first and foremost

have to get control of the border and then figure out the internal

enforcement questions, because as we have established multiple

times today, you are talking about repeat offenders and we all

know that the border is so porous—and it is not just there. If we

squeeze the Mexican border, coming in through Florida and the

Gulf, but even around to Canada, we are seeing increased pressure

on the northern border, unless we get the perimeter of Canada, because where there is a demand, whether it is for drugs or for people or for pornography and prostitution, there will be forces that

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try to meet that demand. So we have to do the demand reduction

at the same time we are trying to control the supply. And this is

a massive problem.

Also, one of the challenges that I see, and I am interested if anybody has any comment on this, that particularly in States where

the illegal immigration has been increasing for 10 years plus, but

especially in the last 5 years. For example, the picture of the kids

in the gang, most of those kids probably did not choose to immigrate to the United States. They were brought by their parents.

And one of the dilemmas that we are facing with it, I do not have

an answer to this question, they may have been brought by their

parents here 5, 10 years ago, they are not Mexicans, they do not

know anything about Mexico. They have not grown up there, they

do not know what the culture is like. If you sent them back, they

would not fit in.

Now, they are here in the United States, and correctly, we do not

want to give driver’s licenses to illegals, we do not want to give

ability to go to college to illegals and so what is happening to this

group? I have a feeling it is fueling the gang part, because I have

been told this in multiple cities, is the anger level of the young

illegals who did not choose to come to America, their parents did.

When they get to America and realize they are supposed to pluck

chickens and clean toilets the rest of their lives, because they cannot go to college, because they cannot get a car, because they cannot get a driver’s license, the logical reaction is crime and belligerence.

And we have ourselves in the horn of an incredible dilemma because we are now trying to deal with it once 12 million are here

and we did not deal with it a long time ago. And it is going to be

incredibly complex to unsort this.

I want to ask Mr. Keith, in the first panel, I was playing around

with this question on the age of gangs. I always thought gangs

were younger and maybe as they age, they stay a gang. How do

you look at a gang in your office, as to what is a gang and what

is not a gang?

Mr. KEITH. We have our biker gangs who are my age and older,

so they are gang members. We have a statistic here on age.

Ms. HOLLAND. Page 28 of my handout gives you the demographics of our validated gang members.

Mr. KEITH. Looks like between 18 and 23 is about 60 percent of

the Forsyth County validated. Now we use the standard that you

were talking to Mr. Jordan about. Our standard is you do not have

to commit a felony—common signs, common signals, intimidation.

A gang is a subculture, they literally have a book of knowledge

which is an upside down world where they write everything they

think about the work and you look at it and say this is crazy. And

they literally copy it and these guys memorize it. It is a subculture,

a new family. Those are the younger people.

But we do have older biker gangs like Aryan Nations, Hell’s Angels, what-have-you, who are Social Security age.

Mr. SOUDER. Have you seen much of the recruitment occurring

in prisons or in juvenile probation?

Mr. KEITH. In prisons, one of our members that we meet with is

a North Carolina Department of Corrections, there is a gang that

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sets you up in business when you get out of prison with so much

cocaine. That is a gang.

In my earlier life as a defense attorney, I would go to prisons and

I remember I went to one in Tennessee and the prisons are broken

down by race of inmates. You are either in a White gang or a Black

gang or a Hispanic gang. And I asked this one guy, what are you

doing in a gang, you are in her for forgery. He says, man, you fight

every day to stay alive and you have to have somebody to cover

your back. So the prisons are breeding grounds of a lot of gangs

and then they come out and they maintain that allegiance.

Mr. SOUDER. In American history, obviously one of the recent—

last 2 years, as you get older recent seems to go longer—there were

multiple movies about Irish gangs that almost every immigrant

group, Vietnam, as they came over after the Vietnam War, Los Angeles was dominated by different gangs that almost every immigrant group in American history has had this subproblem with it,

in addition to in my area, which was heavily German. Fort Wayne

was settled around in the 1830’s, two of the four newspapers were

still in German language up until the rise of Hitler; the school systems were still speaking bilingual with German over 100 years

after they came in.

There is almost always a backlash against the language transition in the gangs. Do you see this? Is there any parallel with this

in North Carolina history? Was it different? I mean almost all

urban areas in the East Coast, the midwest and the West Coast

have had this assimilation problem for 30 to 50 years. It is not an

easy process.

Mr. KEITH. My mother was Italian, large family, she was about

the 5th of 11. She was the first one that we thought was born in

America until after she passed away. My brother presented me

with about three different birth dates that he found—confirmation

dates, birth certificates. And I do not know if my mother’s family

was trying to slip her under the wire. We never have determined

when her actual birth date was. She may have been born in Italy

and maybe she was illegal, I do not know. One of my uncles fought

in World War II for the Italian Army and for the U.S. Marines at

Iwo Jima. I have seen my family go through the assimilation problem, I have seen the prejudice in the northeast where I spent about

17 years of my life. They would talk about we could not play golf

because we were Italians, at the country club. They could caddy

there and they played on Monday, and several of them became very

successful PGA golf professionals.

They learned how to speak English. My mother Americanized

her name. I did not know her name until we looked at some of the

confirmations, her name was Marguerita, I thought her name was

Margaret her whole life. She died when I was in my 50’s. They

wanted the American way. But there were not those huge groups

of them that have come in and have coalesced and work in a workplace.

My daughter was looking for a job in sales. She had a friend who

sold nails for nail guns for construction. That trade in this part of

the State has been taken over, the framing trade, by Hispanics.

She could not get the job because she did not speak Spanish and

no one on the job sites spoke American. They are retaining that

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language and it is a slower assimilation than the Italians or the

Germans or Scots. So that may be an issue.

I am here just to talk about the impact on the criminal justice

system. The rest of the stuff is above my pay grade, but at least

my own family’s experiences. We went on to speak English. My

mother did not even know Italian, she was not allowed to speak

Italian.

Mr. SOUDER. Ms. Conrad-Shrader and Representative Folwell,

does North Carolina have, with English as the first language, do

you have an English immersion for kids? I mean some of the

things—and I share some of your frustration about some of the

mandates, but I believe most of those are court mandates, not legislative mandates. I do not believe the U.S. Congress made the hospital rules or the school rulings or the bilingual. Some bilingual

textbooks we may have. But I would be interested in—it is one

thing to in effect accommodate the language and increasing put it

on documents and another to try to do an immersion and have it

as a second language at home or in neighborhoods. For example,

there are many areas in the United States where you still see, particularly for example, in certain Jewish communities in New York

City, certain Italian communities, certain Vietnamese communities,

all the signs are still in that language in their neighborhoods. But

they also speak English. And the question is are we driving toward

English aggressively enough in the school system and how are you

doing that in North Carolina?

Mr. FOLWELL. We are doing that and that goes back to the point

I made earlier in that 10 years ago we only had three ESL centers

out of the 62 school sites that we have in this county. And now we

have 43. So in a large portion of our schools in Forsyth County,

they have the program to do the English immersion for the elementary and middle school children.

The problem is that—I should not say a problem, but one of the

issues we face is that, especially if you get a middle school child,

I do not know how you were with trying to pick up a second language at, you know 20 or 25 years old, but once you get into middle

school, it becomes very difficult to learn the language. And there

is a propriety to not learning the language in that it goes back to

the point I was making about the underground economy that exists

in North Carolina. I do not speak for the police department, I do

not know if anybody is here from our local Winston-Salem Police

Department, but there are areas of our community where if you do

not speak English long enough, there is a high probability that the

police officer who may have detained you for some purpose is going

to get a higher coded call. If you do not speak English long enough,

that person will get a higher coded call and be called off to do

something else. So there is a certain propriety or profit in not

speaking English.

Mr. SOUDER. Does anybody know, one of the things—I am a

strong proponent of at the Federal level, and it is not really Spanish that is our main concern right now at the Federal level, it is

Arabic—do you have incentives—clearly, regardless of what the

Federal Government does, you are going to continue to have this

language problem. Are you giving any financial incentives to officers to get second language? Is there anything the State or county

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is doing to encourage that training? For example, this is something

I have always thought would be mandatory on the southwest border, I do not understand why we have Border Patrol people who

cannot speak Spanish. Increasingly we need to have at least one

Arabic person on each post. You could be coming in with a package

that says anthrax on it and we would not be able to interpret it.

In my home town, by the way, it is not just—because we have

a lot of refugees in addition to illegal immigrants, one of the main

high schools in my city has 83 languages and dialects in it right

now. I have the largest collection of Burmese refugees in America,

I have 2,000 Bosnians that have come in. And the fire department

does not know how to handle it when they go to some of these complexes, it is half Bosnian and half Burmese. The language problem

is immense in a country of immigrants and these are mostly legal

refugees. And clearly we have to have a law enforcement, fire department, court process to figure out how to deal with the languages because even, like you say, under any normal system, even

if they are trying to learn English, and with the Internet and the

TV and everything, it is going to take a while. And I just wondered

what the legal system is doing in North Carolina to try to respond.

Mr. KEITH. As the DA, I ran an ad in the Charlotte paper and

the Raleigh paper wanting a Spanish speaking prosecutor. I got

zero replies. I go to teach at the National Advocacy Center, which

is funded by the U.S. Justice Department, it is a week of my vacation. I go down there trying to hustle young people who will come

up from Brownsville, TX to North Carolina. I buy dinner, buy

drinks. So far I have not been successful. There is no premium in

North Carolina to come here or to stay above the starting salary.

Mr. SOUDER. Representative Folwell.

Mr. FOLWELL. I will try to respond. I have numerous newspaper

articles here where folks are being hired and paid a stipend of

$2,000 or $3,000 more a year if they do speak two languages. That

may be a good thing in the beginning, but it does set a level of double standard and unfairness amongst the other people who work in

their department that do the exact same job and the reason they

are getting paid less is they do not speak a language which is not

the official language of our State. So it does—I see where you are

going with your question, but in reality, it does create a lot of ill

feelings between people who are working side-by-side doing the

same job, one who understands fluently our English language and

gets paid less than somebody else who does not. I think we are all

to blame for this. There is enough blame to go around this room,

this community and this State for this problem.

I know that we have heard a lot of depressing statistics here

today, but I am going to tell you, this country can achieve and accomplish and fix anything it sets its mind to. This is not going to

be any different. We have to have clarity of thought and we have

to have things in the right order. If we can get those things lined

up with hard working folks like Congresswoman Foxx and yourself,

we can fix this.

Ms. CONRAD-SHRADER. Mr. Chairman, I think Representative

Folwell touched slightly on this issue, I am not sure that there is

a great incentive in the illegal immigration population to attempt

to learn the English language. We are bearing a great deal of cost

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across the board in county services. Hardly a week goes by that the

Board of County Commissioners does not receive a request to hire

more interpreters. And I have heard anecdotally that even if they

do know how to speak English, they prefer to disguise that fact because they feel it is to their advantage to continue to speak in their

native language.

Also, I would followup on Representative Folwell’s recent comments, and respectfully, perhaps disagree with one of your assessments of the situation, in calling this complex. We have watched

the actions of Congress over the last few weeks, that certainly does

seem to be the struggle that Congress is facing and their general

opinion. But I think if you listen to your constituents, and particularly those of the 5th District, this is what is causing the frustration among the legal, tax-paying citizens of this country and even

the legal immigrants, is that they do not view this situation as

complex. They see that we have a large mass immigration of people

in this country that have violated Federal laws, do not seem to

have respect for the laws of the United States and that not only

do our borders need to be protected, but that these 12 million illegal immigrants needs to be deported from this country and re-enter

legally, regardless of the number of years that they have lived in

the United States, because certainly we cannot rely on any legitimate documentation or information to even assess that situation.

And to allow them to re-enter, and their children, legally perhaps

in controlled numbers because we certainly cannot absorb this

mass of illegal immigration and what may follow in future years

if you allow amnesty or even a guest worker program.

That is what I am hearing from the citizens out there, is they

do not understand why Congress is not acting more decisively,

more quickly and more severely on this problem. And they do not

see as that complex situation.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you. Mx. Foxx.

Ms. FOXX. Well, thank you, Commissioner Conrad-Shrader, for

saying some of what I feel too.

We are talking about our backgrounds a little bit and I want to

say my father’s parents came to this country from Italy. He was

the oldest of nine living children. He and all his brothers and sisters learned to speak English without the help of an English as a

Second Language teacher, in probably classes of 45 or 50 kids with

probably a lot of people who spoke Italian when they went to

school, and other languages, because he was born in 1915 and was

going to school when there were a lot of people coming here from

other countries. So I know very well that it is possible to learn to

speak English without the help of another language.

There are so many things that you all said that I want to respond to. One thing is that Representative Folwell said this is the

largest unfunded mandate ever, and I agree with you on that, because I think the Federal Government has simply not done its job

in securing the borders. And as a colleague of mine pointed out the

other day, and I want to read this to you because I think not many

of us think about this from the Constitution, it is in Article 4, Section 4, ‘‘The United States shall guarantee to every State in this

union a republican form of government and shall protect each of

them against invasion.’’

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Now I think I agree with Commissioner Conrad-Shrader, I think

the people of the 5th District and people all over this country think

we are being invaded, and that the Federal Government is simply

not doing its job to protect us from invasion. And so I think that

is the first role of the Federal Government.

I agree with Chairman Souder about the problem of raising taxes

at the Federal level and trying to spend at the Federal level. I very

much agree with him that whatever we can do needs to be done

at the local level if at all possible. But it is wrong of the Federal

Government to impose these costs on the local governments.

The other thing I would say again about people who came here

in years past, who came in the early 1900’s. When folks came here

before, they came through centers, they came to Ellis Island or

other places where they had to show that they were healthy and

that they would not be a burden. Even legal people who come here

have to prove that they will not be a burden on our culture. And

I think that we absolutely have to enforce that in our country and

I think that is the job of the Federal Government, is to say you

cannot be here in this country if you are going to be a burden on

the taxpayers. That is how it used to be when people came here.

The other thing related to Federal spending, as the chairman

said, we are facing a crisis at the Federal Government level related

to a term that I absolutely hate to use, but it is generally used by

my colleagues—the term ‘‘mandatory spending’’—Social Security,

Medicare, Medicaid. In the next few years, like by 2040 that will

absorb 60 percent of all the spending at the Federal Government

level. The No. 1 role of the Federal Government, again, is the defense of this Nation. We have to have money to defend the Nation.

That cannot be done anywhere else. Forsyth County cannot do

that, the State of North Carolina cannot do that. So we have to

make sure that there is money there.

And I, for one, am frustrated that the Congress has not dealt

with this issue of how we are going to deal with spending the Federal Government has committed itself to, let alone these other

things.

And I guess a couple of other responses to comments that you all

have made. Representative Folwell talked about the bill that we

have in Congress now that says you cannot be a citizen unless at

least one of your parents is here legally. I completely agree with

that. I am a co-sponsor of that bill. We call it the Anchor Baby bill.

I think that it is unconscionable that we allow people to become

citizens when the act that got them there to start with was illegal.

I guess that the other comment that I wanted to make was it is

unfortunate that the State of North Carolina has not said back to

the Federal Government, English is our official language, we have

declared it so. Under the 10th amendment to the Constitution, it

is our right to do that and we are simply not going to fund English

as a Second Language. I believe that should be our national policy.

And again, I agree with Representative Folwell, we are facing a

looming problem in this country if we devalue our language and we

devalue our currency. You brought up the issue of devaluing the

language and the chairman has brought up the issue of devaluing

the currency. I just do not think there is any greater issue—there

are two great issues facing us right now—the threat to our national

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security coming from foreign countries and the threat to our entire

way of life coming from this tide of illegal aliens who are coming

here. So we may be destroyed from within before we are destroyed

from without. And I think it is a very serious problem.

I think the issues that you all have brought up—the gangs and

their lawlessness. And part of that is I think again what my constituents say to me and what I feel myself, if we allow these people

to come here illegally and there is no punishment for it but simply

reward, then that just gives them the opportunity to say they will

break any law. What does it mean that we are a Nation of laws

if we allow the initial entry to this country to be as a result of an

illegal act?

So, you know, I am quite concerned about, again, most of the

issues that you all have brought up. I referenced earlier the fact

that we had this hearing yesterday in Caldwell County, not in my

district obviously, but another member of our subcommittee, Representative McHenry, and one of the issues that came out of that

meeting and out of that hearing was that many people think that

they do not have to be concerned about the spread of methamphetamine because they themselves are not involved with it, their families are not involved with it. But the ripple effect of illegal drugs

is enormous.

And I think the ripple effect of illegal immigration and illegal

aliens is much greater than many of our lawmakers understand.

And I frankly wish that we could have had all of our leadership

in Congress here listening to what you had to say, and maybe the

President too, to understand the depth of the concerns and the

breadth of the concerns for this issue, and again, what the ripple

effect is for us.

I had a lot of questions to ask, but I think most of them, particularly Mr. Keith, you answered in terms of talking about the impact

and I think that Mr. Jordan—I cannot think of any other questions

right now, Mr. Chairman, but I wanted to give that feedback to the

people who have spoken.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you.

Representative Folwell.

Mr. FOLWELL. I just wanted to add, I brought up the idea of deportation, and I would just submit, Mr. Chairman, that if you give

us an opportunity to do some kind of pilot program that would save

the Federal taxpayer money, better utilize assets that either the

local, State or Federal Government has already purchased, and

share whatever we save, we give half back to you and we can reinvest half of it back into dealing with this problem on a bigger basis.

If you give us that chance, we will come through for you.

Mr. SOUDER. Well, let me make——

Mr. FOLWELL. If I might just add.

Mr. SOUDER. I thought you were done.

Mr. FOLWELL. I’m sorry the ICE people are not here, because it

is my understanding that when somebody is deported or arrested

or whatever the terms are, there are a couple of paths they go

down. One is that they are not considered to be a criminal risk,

sometimes they are taken to Raleigh-Durham Airport and they are

put on an airplane back to their country of origin. The other option

is they may be taken to Charlotte and run through some kind of

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process down there. Then they are transported from Charlotte to

Atlanta where they go before a deportation hearing officer. If they

are determined to be deportable in Atlanta, they may be taken to

Gadsden, AL, near Talladega, and in Gadsden, AL, they could be

put on a plane with a lot of other deportees, flown to Brownsville,

TX, taken off the plane in Brownsville, TX, put on a bus and taken

across the street. We can make that process a whole lot more efficient by running airplanes out of Smith-Reynolds Airport, period.

Have a deportation center, run airplanes, save money. We share

the savings. We will take half of our savings and redeploy that

back into other ways to save money in this process and we can

come through for you, without any increased expenditure.

Mr. SOUDER. Let me make a couple of comments and I had a few

more questions.

One on the Anchor Baby legislation, which I am also a co-sponsor

of. The questions may not seem complex, but they are complex,

whether people think they are complex or not, quite frankly. In Anchor Baby, assuming you define it—as we have to deal with the

question of is one parent a citizen by green card, refugee status.

Some of what you are dealing with are not illegal immigrants, they

are what we have done in the Central American countries—I was

asking questions about El Salvadorans and Guatemalans—we have

extended the refugee status all through the civil wars of the 1980’s

now and expanded them for political reasons and economic reasons

of those countries. And the question is what about all these people

who have come in under refugee status, not even refugee status

from Burma where you have a military regime, but a refugee status where you have a democratically elected government in El Salvador and Guatemala, and people are still claiming economic refugee status, which roughly the entire world could claim under that

criteria of being lower income than the United States.

But assuming, taking away all those questions related to Anchor

Baby, and this is assuming as long as they have some kind of status in the United States of one parent. I think—this is an I think—

we are going to bring this legislation up in the House. It is not

clear whether we can pass this legislation in the House, but it will

be close. I would not hold my breath for this legislation to pass the

Senate, I would say it is somewhere between zero and half a percent in an optimistic forecast.

But if it did pass the House and the Senate, everybody agrees

that nobody knows how the court is going to rule. There is no

precedent in American history, there is zero. We have had an extended internal discussion about this. Chairman Sensenbrenner,

Lamar Smith are two advocates of this bill—Lamar Smith is chairman of the key subcommittee and likely next chairman of the Judiciary if the Republicans maintain control—agree that anybody who

speculates how the court is going to rule is just speculating, because there is no precedent of this decision. It would seem, to those

of us who are sponsoring this bill, that the founding fathers controlled the right of citizens for good or ill early on, including depriving women and Blacks of votes. So they seemed to have, in the

Constitution, protected the rights of citizenship which would suggest to those of us who are strict constructionists that they would

probably rule in favor of the Anchor Baby legislation, if there was

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in fact a ruling, assuming the Supreme Court Justices considered

themselves strict constructionists, which a majority does not. And

therefore, you would have to look at what sort of precedents there

are.

So the bottom line is I agree with that philosophy and I believe

it is underneath much of what is happening particularly at the border communities where people try to get one foot across, try to deliver babies in the hospitals across the border and then they move

internally in the United States. And if we cannot get control of that

question, it puts pressure on anything that we try to deal with.

A second thing is that there is incredible naivety about how hard

it is to seal the border. I have spent a big percentage of my career

working on border issues because it is narcotics. It would take over

200,000 soldiers, and we still could not seal the border. I am telling

you, over 200,000, maybe half a million. We do not have them, we

do not have them in the military. My Guard units are exhausted,

my Reserve units are exhausted. My regular military people from

my home area are doing second cycles. Terrorism around the world

is not going to go down. We do not have the troops to seal the border.

We cannot replace the Customs and Border Patrol agents. When

we increase the dollars for them, we cannot fill the slots. The second they get an opportunity to go somewhere else, they do not

want to sit there on the southwest border, they head out. It is a

monumental dilemma that is going to take us some time.

Now the question is we need both time and the will. Now a fence

is part of that, a fence is not the end all. They cut the fence in San

Diego, but at least it slows them down a little bit. That virtual

fence which is really the only thing practical in the mountainous

zones and in some of the open areas—a virtual fence where you are

doing monitors and so on. They kick them out, they go over them,

they figure out ways around them, but we still need to do it because it slows it down and gets some control.

We need aerostats in the air to be able to track, we need more

P–3s to be able to track, because they hop over with small airplanes if you do not do otherwise. But we have to have some sort

of way to control immigration and the numbers who are moving

back and forth. The figure 700,000 was in the initial testimony, but

there is more than a million border crossings because so many people go back and forth. If we cannot get that back and forth worked

through—right now, if you fly them to Brownsville and send them

across, the penalty if they come right back across is nothing. In El

Paso, it takes 17 times detained until they hold you overnight.

That was 3 years ago. Now they are so overwhelmed with people

heading to North Carolina and Indiana and elsewhere, they do not

detain them at all unless they are an OTM, which is relatively new

because of the terrorism question, or they have another criminal

record.

So what you are doing, at least at the start of this, is an important step. And that is by getting a criminal record, we are at least

able to identify more of them as we get more sophisticated on the

border. But even logging who has been here illegally in your system is going to give us a better monitoring system as we aggresVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:35 Dec 04, 2006 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00099 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 D:\DOCS\30529.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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sively improve controls on the border, which we will do. The question from my perspective is will we do it fast enough.

After we get the border relatively secure—I think it is an interesting concept that you raised on deportation and a deportation

center. I think it is something that we should look at as we are

looking at these different bills to look at whether this possibly

would work as a center. Clearly our process is flawed. I support

Charlie Norwood’s bill that says State and locals ought to have the

right to arrest illegals. My only statement is, look, all that said,

your local police department could spend their full time arresting

illegals and they are going to be back here in 6 months, maybe 6

days, maybe 6 hours, depending on whether they get an airplane

flight. Until we spend incredible millions and millions of dollars on

computers, on monitoring things, we cannot get the border sealed.

And so interior enforcement, while we can start the process, set up

the process, get people trained, get the language trained, get people

deputized, get them through the courses and that type of stuff, you

cannot have interior enforcement until you have a secure border.

And also until you get some sort of a—and this is the most controversial part—work permit, some kind of thing to handle the 12

million that are here, because not only will you not have a secure

border, you cannot find them, the estimates are just incredible

what that will take.

Bottom line is we agree to that, that we need to get the border

more secure and I believe you will see Congress move in that direction, hopefully move aggressively in that direction. But we will

take at least baby steps.

Second, we need to look at creative ways to start setting the infrastructure for managing those who are here illegally, because

they need to somehow get into our system because no system is

safe when you do not know who is here and how they are moving

around, whether it is terrorism or crime.

Third, and this is a more monumental question. You cannot even

figure out—the health questions on people coming in, the screening, not making sure—how we deal with that. Partly the courts

have really made the health question complicated, and the schooling question complicated and we need to try to plunge into the

health and schooling question. And what is the Federal Government going to do to supplement the fact—even though I said the

Federal Government does not have money—what is the Federal obligation to supplement the fact that we did not have the border

sealed for the last decade?

In the future, as the border gets sealed, as we get a workable

work permit, immigration strategy with larger numbers of immigrants to reflect realistic modern labor shortages rather than 20

years ago immigration numbers, as that changes, then you are

going to have obligations in how to deal with people who are coming in. But for the people who are here, clearly the Federal Government has some obligation.

One of the most important local things and things that need to

get set up—and I have asked this question a number of times. I

know in my area, they started to tackle this, and that is as we

move toward immigrant smugglers, the coyote networks, this is

something where the local law enforcement needs to help us, beVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:35 Dec 04, 2006 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00100 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 D:\DOCS\30529.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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cause we are finding that it is much more fragmented than we

thought at the Federal level. Starting with, No. 1, have you here

taken down or searched or looked for who is making the fake green

cards and IDs? Have you had any cases, because clearly people are

manufacturing them in this area?

Mr. KEITH. We have had some employees of DMV that have been

assisting people in getting driver’s license. And from my perspective, I think DMV in years past has assisted by their completely

slack attitude toward driver’s licenses and now as these cards are

being renewed, they are allowing the item number to be reused,

which was used as a fake Social Security number 4 years ago when

they got their license, but to be used again. I mean, DMV is certainly not on the law enforcement side even yet.

Mr. SOUDER. So has North Carolina moved toward looking for a

Social Security number match?

Mr. KEITH. Yes, but I mean, give me a name and I will bring you

back a Social Security card tomorrow with your name on it.

Mr. SOUDER. The question—and this is at the fundamental core

of how we are going to get to deportation and managing work permits because the State and locals have to figure it out. I have one

company in Fort Wayne, IN that makes 37 States’ driver’s licenses,

and another company in Fort Wayne that does 5 more, so the odds

are North Carolina is there, I do not know for sure, but 42 of the

50 States. They said the security of those licenses are dictated by

the States. They come in and make them as secure as you want.

We have some initial indicators that watermarks are going to be

the first step, to make sure that it is hard to duplicate. A second

thing is we are looking for biometric indicators. They do Singapore

as well, so they can do eye scans, they can do multiple fingerprints.

We have to do more than one fingerprint, one fingerprint, they cut

them off, literally in the drug and crime world—multiple fingerprints. This is a huge thing.

I was just over in Pakistan and Iraq and so on, particularly Pakistan where terrorists are coming through, you need multiple fingerprints on IDs.

But as we move through, the State agencies need to make more

secure license systems that the local banks and so on need to be—

how are we going to track drug money if people have fake IDs with

fake numbers and the banks will not cooperate on making sure this

goes. This is not just a Federal question, we need the States doing

that. And as we move, most identity theft in America are people

stealing my name with my number. One of my wife’s best friends

went to get a new credit card and four other people had stolen her

number. Nobody was using her credit card, they stole her Social

Security number. The largest group of radiologists in Fort Wayne,

every single person has had their Social Security number and they

are fighting off roughly once a month another group that has

swapped and sold those Social Security numbers.

Now at the Federal level, as we get a bank on the Social Security

numbers, what we need to know is then that the local prosecutors,

local officials are making strong laws to go after and figure out who

is duplicating inside North Carolina. It is not something they are

duplicating them over in Ohio and bringing them to North Carolina. And I know in my home district, three green card manufacturVerDate 11-MAY-2000 14:35 Dec 04, 2006 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00101 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 D:\DOCS\30529.TXT HGOVREF1 PsN: HGOVREF1
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ers were taken down in a period of 60 days. This is something that

needs to be aggressively looked at and then tell us what mechanisms you do not have in enforcing that and where the Federal

Government can help. But if the green card manufacturer, the stolen Social Security—as we get our computer system up better, then

the question is how can we work better to identify and enforce this.

Because without the basic identity information being correct, deportation is irrelevant, you cannot figure out whether they are a

citizen or not.

Mr. KEITH. I hate to be negative, I am actually a very positive

person outside of here. I am aware of one drunk driver through a

friend of mine who is an alcohol counselor, and he will not reveal

his name, but he is an illegal immigrant. I do not know his nationality, could be Polish or Scottish, he has five different licenses

under five different names and he has five first offense drunk driving convictions.

I have my North Carolina license which has all this coded stuff,

biometrics on the back. DMV cannot read it. The only place that

you can get this read is at an ABC store, so if I go in to get a fifth

of liquor and I have Brandon’s license with my picture on it, they

will know that I do not have brown hair and I am not a female

and I am not 5 feet, 6 inches. We cannot do that. Our officers, we

have those MTDs that Mr. Jordan talked about in the card, but nobody in North Carolina can read this card. We could use a national

driver’s license in this bill to have all the biometrics put on there,

that would really help. But right now, it does not take much ID to

get a driver’s license.

Mr. SOUDER. Well, it does not do us any good to require the biometrics if nobody can read it. So is there any proposal at the State

or local to be able to get the equipment so it can be read?

Mr. KEITH. Funding again would be that issue.

Mr. SOUDER. Representative Folwell.

Mr. FOLWELL. District Attorney Keith did used to have brown

hair, I just wanted to say that, before he started dealing with these

problems. [Laughter.]

Two things. And I am a freshman member of the legislature,

very glad to be there, it is a great place to serve. I think the DMV

is taking steps on the driver’s license issue. It seems that by a recent newspaper report, that the number of illegal immigrants applying for North Carolina driver’s license has dropped dramatically.

We literally, in our two driver’s license locations in Forsyth County,

used to have tent cities set up, literally, on Monday mornings. People would come down, camp out, out-of-State license plates on their

cars, and they were running them through. One reason is that we

were accepting 999–99–9999 as a Social Security number for people

to get driver’s license.

Second, to go back to a point you made about an hour and a half

ago about can you pierce through and put someone in jail who

knowingly provided bond for someone who was going to jump bail.

We have actually, or I have actually been working with the Insurance Commissioner in North Carolina, not about driver’s license,

but about uninsured motorists where there may be some legislation

introduced that has the same spirit of what you talked about a couple of hours ago, that would allow us to pierce through the veil of

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people who were selling fake DL–123s, which is your notification

that you have basic liability insurance on your car. If you sell

somebody a fake DL–123 and they go out and become involved in

an accident which cost victims of this State $83 million last year

by the way and we have one of the lowest uninsured motorist pools

in the United States, but legislation that would allow us to go back

to the person who sold that driver the DL–123, and pierce through

and actually garnish their assets also.

I wanted to also add, and I normally do not comment on things

I do not know a lot about, or at least try to. But it is my understanding, for example——

Mr. SOUDER. That is just because you are a freshman.

Mr. FOLWELL. OK. [Laughter.]

And in case it does not get said here in the next few minutes,

I just want to say how confident I am in your depth of knowledge

about these issues. It really makes me more optimistic that folks

like you would come down here and conduct a meeting like this.

Of all the meetings I have ever been in, it is one of the most productive I have ever sat through, so I want to thank you for that

in case it does not get said.

But one thing I would like for you to look into is how it relates—

it is my understanding that you can set up certain kinds of financial institutions that are federally chartered where you do not have

to provide a Social Security number to open an account and the

IRS does not have—for lack of a better word, Mr. Chairman—surveillance rights or powers into these financial banks or credit

unions. That is something else that I think is going on in this

State, that there are certain financial institutions that can be set

up where you do not have to submit a Social Security number,

where you can deposit money and the IRS has no broad powers to

see who the depositors are or anything. So that is another part of

this Social Security number equation.

Mr. SOUDER. Well, thank you, we will look into—if there are any

criminals present or hear or see that comment, they should know

we sometimes have bigger eyes than they think. At the same time,

there are those kind of chartered institutions that are harder to do

without a tip, because they do not fall under normal regulations.

And finances we are trying to close, Internet stuff we are trying to

close, trying to get better tracking.

And one of the things in the Department of Homeland Security—

and we will follow this up with ICE, if you all have any additional

input into this—in the narcotics area, we at the Federal Government have—and we are trying to set up and have started to set up

in Homeland Security a similar thing like CTAC—is that what the

program is, I believe—whether it is night vision goggles or different

things for drug tracking. In Homeland Security, we are trying to

set up a similar thing for local law enforcement. And I am convinced that identity is one of the critical things because everything

else falls down if your identity problem falls down. And it may be

that one of the things we need to get into Homeland Security is

better readers. It does not do us any good to get the information

if nobody can read the information or use the information. I think

we are moving toward national standards. I think that some conservatives, including myself, who are concerned about the Book of

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Revelation do not want 666 to be on their forehead necessarily, but

at the same time, we are moving toward some sort of a national

ID and consistency in ID and you can see how without some of that

type of thing, how crooks work. And I think we are moving in that

direction, but we have to be able to read it and then—I am going

to make this comment last and see if Congresswoman Foxx has any

closing comments—that in the challenge here, that in addition to

being able to read and do the ID questions, that the groups that

are running the immigrants and providing for that usually have a

local base, and we will start at the Federal level and work down,

but just like narcotics, it is the local level working up.

They are coming across in groups, they are getting in a van, they

are going on the interstate, bringing the vans up. Who is leasing

them the vans? Who are the companies that are—is it a Budget

rental type thing or do they have separate front groups that are

doing the vans? Who is shopping these flyers down there saying

there is a work site? Do we need enhanced penalties for the people

who are running the numbers as opposed to just looking at each

individual and say look, this is a big business. You cannot have—

the numbers are increasing in North Carolina, looking at this like

another type of illegal distribution network, what are the networks

that are providing the transportation? What are the networks that

are providing the job information? Who, when they come in, gives

them the Social Security number and the green card? Should the

coyotes, which we have in our legislation that was defeated, the

coyotes are the people who do the running. We never had—in San

Diego, the biggest border crossing, it would take then 12 months

to get to trial and if they convicted the person, they had 6 months

suspension. So nobody was trying the coyotes. Clearly that is a law

enforcement question. The question is in this State, first like we do

in narcotics and like we talked about with gangs, you take out the

leaders. And if we can get some of the leaders, then we can start

to address the bigger question of what we are going to do with all

the huge numbers of immigrants we are trying to deal with. But

unless we have a structure—it is in effect walking into people’s

homes and picking them up for smoking pot as opposed to trying

to get to the networks that are moving the whole thing.

I just wanted to raise that point because that is clearly going to

require, at the grassroots level, just like narcotics does, if the street

cop does not pick them up, us having a Federal approach to it will

not work.

Congresswoman Foxx, do you have any closing comments or

questions?

Ms. FOXX. Well, I appreciate you talking about the possibility of

our looking at a deportation center. I think that is a great idea and

that we should look at that. I think looking at whether we need

to put into Federal statutes the need to fingerprint everyone, I

think that comment that District Attorney Keith brought up, and

what to do about enhancing penalties for gang members, I think

those are issues that we can look at and see if we have legislation

that is out there that we could put those elements in, or if we can

put in new legislation that would deal with that.

But I want to thank the chairman for agreeing to come to bring

this hearing here to Forsyth County to the 5th District. It has been

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very revealing to me. I have learned a lot today, I think he has.

I hope that most of the people here have learned a lot. I hope that

we will get some good coverage out of it so that the people who are

not here today, but who will be listening and hearing about what

happened will learn and that we can do more of this to again educate the public as to the ramifications of what we are talking

about. I frankly think the general public in this district is very well

aware of the problems. Our challenge is how do we get other people

to understand those problems, and particularly those people who

serve in the Senate, to understand that we have a need to do something about the problem that we are facing.

But I thank all of you for coming today, and again I especially

thank the chairman. I hope that he will come back again and visit.

I know that he is a history buff and would want to spend some

time at Old Salem and we will have him learn some more about

the wonderful people who settled this area and spend some more

time in the 5th District.

I know how busy you are because I know how busy I am and so

I am grateful to you for making the effort to be here and for the

staff too and look forward to continuing to work with you on these

issues.

Mr. SOUDER. Thank you very much for having me here and

hosting our hearing today. Thank you all for your testimony. As my

friend, Congressman Shadegg says, ‘‘History may not repeat itself,

but often it rhymes.’’ And that is what we look for is that there are

different variations in different States but we are looking for the

rhyming pattern, so at the Federal Government we can do the

rhyming part and leave the local and State to figure out how their

area is unique, and working together I think we can make progress

on these difficult issues. I, like the State’s attorney, am a generally

optimistic person until I sit through these hearings and then

whether it is child abuse or how we are going to pay for Social Security or terrorism in the world, you kind of get down like this and

you go out in the real world and get balanced, because this is still

the greatest country in the world. That is why everybody wants to

come here. And we just need to make sure it stays great and we

keep our identity. And part of the way you do that is through the

hard work of each of you. I hope you will thank each of your departments. I know every police department, every attorney’s office,

everybody who works in the jail, probation officers, who are overwhelmed in most cities, are all overwhelmed and those who serve

in public service, we thank you all on behalf of the U.S. Government for all your work here in North Carolina.

With that, the subcommittee stands adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

[Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:]

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