### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Forrestal Building Washington, D.C.

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:09 a.m.

R eported by: Linda D. Metcalf, Capital Reporting Company

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 F ACILITATOR: 3 N eil Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 P ARTICIPANTS: 6 K arim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 8 A shley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 9 T imothy Ballo, EarthJustice 10 L aura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 J eff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 12 J ohn Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 13 M ary Dane, Traulsen 14 P aul L. Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 15 M ark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 16 G eoffrey M. Halley, Sji Consultants, Inc. 17 C harles Hon, True Manufacturing 18 J ill Hootman, Trane 19 M arshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 20 J ohn Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 21 D iane Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 22 T om Johnson, Daikin McQuay

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 P ARTICIPANTS: 2 J eff Kleiss, Lochinvar 3 M ichael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC 4 A ris Marantan, Ph.D., U.S. Department of Energy 5 M ark Menzer, Intertek 6 K aren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 7 F rank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 8 M ichael Rivest, Navigant Consulting 9 H arvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 10 Economy 11 R onald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 12 F rank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 13 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 14 L ouis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 15 P hillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 16 R usty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 17 C ollin Weber, Navigant Consulting 18 R obert J. Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 19 20 21 22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: I have been asked to go over the 3 s chedule because there is still some confusion about 4 t he dates that are on the SharePoint site. According 5 t o my notes, we are meeting today, which is 7/31, and 6 t omorrow, 8/01. The next meeting is next week, the 7th 7 a nd 8th. We have another meeting scheduled the 26th and 8 2 7th of August. And I think we put a meeting on for 9 t he end of September, just in case we needed to meet at 10 t hat time. But right now, everybody I think believes 11 w e're on schedule. 12 I don't know if I still have the September 13 d ate. I remember at the very first meeting, we put on a 14 d ate in September, September 26th, a one-day meeting 15 a ccording to my notes. Are there any questions about 16 t he schedule? And they're all in this room. Aren't 17 t hey, John? Yes. 18 All right. Does everybody have these new 19 s lides? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I'm getting ready to 21 l oad them. Do you want to go around and do 22 i ntroductions while I get them loaded up there, for the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 R eporter? 2 MR. EISNER: Oh. Yes. Let's go around the 3 r oom, then, for the new court reporter. And then they 4 a re loading up a copy of the new slides that they just 5 p ut up. 6 My name is Neil Eisner. I am the 7 f acilitator. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman, National 9 R efrigeration. 10 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest Energy 11 E fficiency Alliance. 12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 13 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. 14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 15 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 17 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, EarthJustice. 18 MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox International. 19 MR. KOJAK: Mike Kojak, UL. 20 MS. DANE: Mary Dane, Traulsen. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi 22 E lectric.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. 4 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, DOE. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 7 MR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan, Navigant. 8 MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay. 10 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON. 11 MR. MENZER: Mark Menzer, Intertek. 12 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs, Rheem. 13 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI Industries. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody, if you've got 15 y our name tags, turn them -- or name cards, turn them 16 a t an angle, so the court reporter can see them. It 17 w ould help her. 18 Okay. Ashley, they're up? Are they up or -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. The slides are coming 20 u p. I think -- does everybody at the table have a copy? 21 A ctually, and I can share. I can pass mine over to 22 R on.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 So today, we are going to wrap up basic 2 m odel, vote on the last remaining issues there, we are 3 g oing to hopefully vote on certification, wrap that up, 4 a nd actually our goal is to hopefully get that done all 5 b y lunchtime, and then we will move on to verification. 6 MR. AMRANE: If I may -- Karim Amrane, AHRI. 7 A re we going to be talking about the effective date, 8 t he December 31st effective date, at some point? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can talk about that as 10 p art of the certification. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So one of the -- you can 12 g o to the next side. So we had already talked a lot 13 a bout DOE issuing guidance regarding various different 14 c haracteristics, and so we put in a slide in here that 15 t alks about if DOE issues guidance that would exclude 16 s ome of the features that we have discussed previously. 17 T he model has to be identical, with respect to all of 18 t he other features, for us to not select the unit -- a 19 m odel that has that feature. 20 And so I think everybody was clear on this, 21 b ut we wanted to make sure that there weren't any 22 q uestions, and then go ahead and vote on this.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 MS. MEYERS: Laura, this is Karen with Rheem. 2 I just want clarification on "must be available for 3 t esting at all times." What exactly is meant by that? 4 A re you saying this model must be in stock? 5 MS. BARHYDT: No. Just that it has to be 6 a vailable in your lineup, your offerings. 7 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Thank you. 8 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Comments? 9 A nybody have any objections to this? Any abstentions? 10 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 11 C ould we maybe clean that up a little bit to make sure 12 t hat it's -- because I think it almost looks like it 13 m eans you have to have it standing ready. 14 MR. EISNER: So would the language Laura just 15 g ave work? 16 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 17 MR. EISNER: "Available in your" -- 18 MR. DOPPEL: "Available in the" -- 19 MR. HUNT: Yeah. And give an extra hundred 20 f or me for being a nice -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: When you're on the phone, 22 p lease state your name before your speak, so that the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 r eporter knows who you are. And whoever made the last 2 c omment, if you could actually say that again, I didn't 3 c atch it. No? Okay. 4 Does that -- 5 MR. EISNER: Is that fine, Paul? 6 Okay. With that change, does anybody object? 7 A nybody abstain? 8 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. When 9 y ou say "in your product line for testing at all 10 t imes," can we just sort of clarify that a little bit? 11 Y ou mean it's available, but on order. You may have to 12 o rder it. Okay. 13 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, if we could clarify that 14 b ecause for a manufacturer in production, you know, 15 t hat's a little unclear. That's why I think you're 16 g etting all the questions. So -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Basically, you need to offer 18 i t for sale, not only to DOE for testing, but it must 19 b e available for sale, whether it be for DOE to 20 p urchase for testing, whether it be for a customer to 21 p urchase for installation. You may have to build it to 22 o rder if we request it, but --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 MR. EISNER: If we put "for sale" in there, 2 w ould everybody be happy with that? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's all right. 4 MR. EISNER: Any objections to this new 5 l anguage? Any abstentions? Okay. 6 MS. MEYERS: Wait just a minute. You're 7 g oing too fast. I think I'm okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Everybody is okay? No 9 a bstentions? All right. 10 Next issue? 11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. Last 12 q uestion on the other one, maybe it's straightforward, 13 b ut if you have custom models, how does that work? Do 14 y ou have -- do you do nothing but make custom units? 15 W ould that still -- does that still make sense, do you 16 t hink? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So, I mean, this -- so 18 t o the extent that the optional features that we are 19 i ssuing enforcement guidance, for them to apply this 20 u nderlying theme has to be met first. So in order for 21 o ne of those -- in order for us not to test a unit with 22 o ne of those optional features, you have to have a unit

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 w ith a base feature in your product line for sale at 2 a ll times. Period. 3 If you do not have one of those, then we are 4 a utomatically able to test one of the ones with 5 o ptional features. So that's how this works. So if 6 y ou only make units with an optional feature -- for 7 e xample, if you only make HVAC units with VFDs, for 8 e xample, you don't make anything else, period, we could 9 t est one of those. 10 But if you have a base unit without one and 11 i t's in your product offering, available for sale at 12 a ll times, regardless of whether it needs to be built 13 t o order, or whether it's in stock or at a distributor, 14 o r whatever, then the Department could select the one 15 w ith the base feature. Would select. Not could, 16 w ould. 17 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 18 C arrier. Just a clarification question. So reading 19 t hrough the positions on the various options, some are 20 d escribed -- the position is that test procedure 21 g uidance will be issued, some say enforcement guidance 22 w ill be issued, and some just say guidance will be

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 i ssued. Can you clarify what those different terms 2 m ean, or are they all the same? 3 MS. BARHYDT: No, they're not the same. So 4 t est procedure guidance -- and we'll go back through 5 a nd doublecheck all of these, but the ones that say 6 " test procedure guidance" shouldn't say that we won't 7 t est something. It just says that we will clarify the 8 t est procedure to address whatever the concern was. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So an example of that is 10 t here is one with about -- that has to do with dampers, 11 r ight? And it doesn't mean that we won't select a unit 12 w ith dampers to test; it means that I think what we 13 a greed to is we would fully seal everything before 14 t esting. So we could still select that unit, but those 15 d ampers would need to be sealed in order to test it. 16 T hat's the difference. It's the difference between not 17 p icking a unit with that feature versus picking a unit 18 f or testing but accommodating that feature through, you 19 k now, how it's tested. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So then "enforcement guidance" 21 m eans that those will not be selected. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 MR. WHITWELL: And then there were a few that 2 j ust said "guidance." Is that -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: I'm guessing here, but I think 4 t hose were ones where we were actually going to have to 5 l ook at the test procedure and figure out exactly what 6 w e could do. We are going to work on addressing the 7 i ssue. It is just a matter of we are trying to figure 8 o ut exactly what the best mechanism to do that is. 9 O kay? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So one of the last 12 r emaining issues for basic model was the high static 13 i ndoor blowers, oversized motors. We had talked 14 p reviously about issuing enforcement guidance 15 i ndicating that units will be tested with the base 16 m otor, and all motors used within the model grouping 17 w ould have to have the same relative efficiency 18 p erformance as the motor included in the base unit. 19 We have got a lot of slides here that kind of 20 w alk through how that would work because I know people 21 h ad a lot of questions about it. So I am actually 22 g oing to let somebody else go through the slides.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 MR. RIVEST: You'll notice a slight 2 d ifference - - I'm Mike Rivest from Navigant 3 C onsulting. You'll notice a slight difference in this 4 d escription than in the previous description. So let 5 m e start by saying the overarching goal here is that 6 w hen a product is certified with a certain motor, and 7 t hat certification is extended to a grouping, that the 8 e fficiency of the motor -- of all motors in that 9 g rouping should be "equivalent" to that of the motor 10 t hat was used to certify. 11 So the situation that we are trying to avoid 12 i s that an extremely efficient motor could be used to 13 a chieve a certification rating, and then a far less 14 e fficient motor could be used in products in that 15 g rouping. And since products in that grouping are -- 16 w hen we are talking about higher static, for example, 17 w ouldn't be tested, then the only way of verifying that 18 t he motor is in fact equivalent would be to validate 19 t he efficiency of that motor. 20 It came to light in conversations that not -- 21 m otors that are installed within your equipment is not 22 r egulated. So previously, this description had been

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 t hat if a motor was more efficient than the minimum 2 s tandard for the base unit, it should also be 3 e quivalently more efficient for units in the grouping. 4 But the truth is, since it's not regulated, 5 t hat motor in the base unit could be less efficient 6 t han the minimum standard. In that case, the products 7 i n the grouping should be no more or less efficient 8 t han the ones in the base unit. So that's the change 9 h ere, having the parens and saying, "The motor of the 10 s ame, or better, relative performance shall exhibit the 11 s ame percentage lower or higher losses from those 12 s pecified for subtype 1, general purpose motors, under 13 t he prevailing federal efficiency standard." 14 So the way to think about this table of 15 e fficiencies is not that you are compelled to meet that 16 e fficiency. It is simply a scaler, to be able to 17 r elate the efficiency or the losses at one horsepower 18 r ating to the losses at another. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions? Any 20 c omments? 21 MR. WHITWELL: So, Mike, if, for example, 22 s omeone is using an ECM motor, the same -- we would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 t ake the same approach here. If the ECM motor is the 2 b ase motor, then we would look at the subtype 1, 3 g eneral purpose motor efficiency for that horsepower, 4 l ook at the relative efficiency, and then all other 5 m otors must have the same or higher relative 6 e fficiency, correct? 7 MR. RIVEST: That's correct. So the nuance 8 h ere is that an ECM motor doesn't have poles. So, you 9 k now, but presumably if you have motors in that series 10 t hat do have poles, then you could use, you know, the 11 t able that is relevant -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Okay. 13 MR. RIVEST: -- for that; right? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Good. Thanks. 15 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. So what 16 e fficiency are we using for the fractional horsepower 17 i n the 48 and 56 frame-type motors? Because in the 18 N EMA tables you have, they all start at one. And for 19 m ost of the smaller equipment it is going to be less 20 t han one. 21 MR. RIVEST: You know, the general answer is, 22 y ou know, this is not -- this is something we are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 d iscussing, right? So I think the idea, to be similar, 2 w ould be to use the current minimum federal standard 3 f or small motors and scale off of that. Is that -- 4 MR. FLY: That isn't in this document, 5 t hough, right? 6 MR. RIVEST: That isn't in that document, 7 b ut, you know, we can -- I can look at -- I don't know 8 i f it's MG-1 from NEMA, but see where that table is. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think here we are just 10 l ooking at the concept -- 11 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- more than calling out 56 13 f rame motors that, you know, aren't on this. But I 14 g uess what we want you to think about is just the 15 c oncept. So you can apply this concept to any motor, 16 b ecause you know what you did in the base, and 17 t heoretically you'll know what you will do when you 18 s wap out the motor. 19 MR. RIVEST: Right. So this is just a couple 20 o f examples here. So example one is a situation where 21 t he motor and the base unit that is being used to 22 c ertify has 10 percent fewer losses than the federal

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 m inimum for a motor of the same type, poles and 2 e nclosed/non-enclosed. Then all of the models in that 3 g rouping should have, you know, at least 10 percent 4 b etter in terms of losses than the motor in the base 5 u nit. 6 Example two, which is, you know, the 7 r ealization that these motors aren't regulated, it is 8 j ust, you know, the example where the base motor is 9 l ess efficient than the minimum standard, well, we just 10 w ant to make sure that the motor in the rest of the 11 p roduct grouping is no worse than the one in the base. 12 S o if it's five percent less efficient than the minimum 13 s tandard, then the ones in the grouping should be no 14 w orse than five percent more in terms of losses. 15 And the losses are determined by this 16 e quation here, basically losses are 740 times 17 h orsepower, and that's the output power, and one minus 18 e fficiency over efficiency. So you would -- you know, 19 i f you want to calculate this out, this is the equation 20 y ou use. 21 Now, I have prepared a table, a conversion 22 t able, and a spreadsheet that allows you to quickly,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 y ou know, look at what the equivalents are. 2 MS. JAKOBS: I have a question. This is 3 D iane Jakobs from Rheem. And last time Frank brought 4 u p that, so what if in the higher horsepower motors 5 t here is not the range of efficiencies available? And 6 F rank suggested that it say the "highest efficiency 7 a vailable," all of this or whatever is available. 8 And I was thinking about how I would do it. 9 I t is almost like you would have to plan out all of the 10 m otors that would be available for a particular basic 11 m odel and choose your basic model motor based on what 12 w as available for the very large ones where you have 13 l imited choices. 14 And I don't think that that's how things are 15 s et up now, and I could see an issue that for Rheem our 16 a ctual highest volume one is the basic model. And it 17 w ould have the highest volume, so you would be choosing 18 s omething that maybe was less efficient because -- so 19 y ou would have the option of having a two horsepower, a 20 t hree horsepower, or whatever we are talking about, 21 m otor in the future, you know. 22 It is kind of like maybe if you were starting

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 f rom the beginning, you could set this all up so it 2 w ould work. But if you are looking at what is 3 a vailable now, and what we are building now, I don't 4 s ee -- I'm having trouble visualizing how it will work 5 o ut. I mean, your example is clear, but, really, what 6 i s in our lineup now? And how would we have to redesign 7 s omething to meet this framework? Did that make sense? 8 MR. RIVEST: Well, so this is talking about 9 t he goal. It is not talking about the present state. 10 I f there are transition issues, those can be discussed. 11 T he ultimate goal is that representations be as 12 a ccurate as possible. And if it's true that you don't 13 h ave the same range of availability of efficiency in 14 t he larger motors, then, yeah, there are a couple of 15 s olutions. 16 One is to make your rating on EER with a less 17 e fficient motor in the baseline, and extend your 18 c ertification through the larger motors. Another one 19 i s to break down the grouping, you know, where you have 20 p roduct availability at one efficiency level and have, 21 y ou know, for larger motors maybe a separate 22 c ertification. So those are two options.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 You know, that is one way of complying in the 2

- - you know, in the longer term. But I don't know what 3 t he situation is today. 4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly at AAON. So as I 5 s ee it, just looking on what I would do to do this, say 6 I have a five horsepower unit, three-phased, that I'm 7 c ertifying under this program, and it takes a half8 h orsepower motor at ARI conditions would be the 9 a ppropriate motor for the case. That would be my base 10 u nit. 11 I might have to go get as a special for my 12 c ertification testing to determine my certification or 13 i n my AEDM, however you want to look at it, a motor 14 t hat was much less efficient than what my standard 15 o ffering is, so that I can encompass the three 16 h orsepower motor that I may want to offer in that 17 p roduct, which I can't get to with what I normally 18 o ffer in that half-horsepower selection. 19 So that would mean if you picked one of my 20 s tandard five-ton units, it would always pass by a wide 21 m argin because I certified it under a much lower 22 h orsepower motor. But I would comply with your

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 r atings. Is that kind of where you're going on this? 2 MR. RIVEST: I'm not sure I completely 3 f ollowed. So your standard -- so when you certify your 4 f ive-ton unit -- 5 MR. FLY: Right. 6 MR. RIVEST: -- you have to meet certain 7 s tatic pressure requirements and air volume. 8 MR. FLY: Right. And I would want to do that 9 w ith a motor that was -- 10 MR. RIVEST: Small. 11 MR. FLY: -- of low enough efficiency that I 12 c ould catch the proper offset all the way up the motor 13 l ine of everything that I had. 14 MR. RIVEST: No, no, no. Let's not talk 15 a bout the future. So let's say right now the way it 16 w orks is you have a five-ton unit that is being sent 17 f or certification. You select a motor that meets -- 18 t hat allows you to meet the test procedure conditions. 19 MR. FLY: Right. 20 MR. RIVEST: Right? And then you get an EER 21 v alue. 22 MR. FLY: Correct.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MR. RIVEST: And then you extend that EER 2 v alue to the rooftops with motors that have far greater 3 h orsepower, right? 4 MR. FLY: That's correct. 5 MR. RIVEST: Right. And if DOE were to just 6 b uy a five-ton unit from your company, not know what 7 y our certification motor is, and test it, the EER value 8 w ould certainly be lower because the motor is consuming 9 m ore energy. Correct? 10 MR. FLY: They would buy our standard five11 t on unit. 12 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 13 MR. FLY: With the half-horsepower motor, 14 w hich would be selected if you put in the ARI 15 c onditions. 16 MR. RIVEST: NO. That's not what I said. 17 MR. FLY: Okay. 18 MR. RIVEST: What is your standard rooftop 19 o ffering motor? 20 MR. FLY: I don't have a standard rooftop 21 o ffering motor. Every unit is designed and built to 22 o rder. I have a standard product, but I have a range

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 o f motors available on that. 2 MR. RIVEST: All right. But the conditions 3 u nder which the test procedure is run require a static 4 p ressure that is lower than most any condition that 5 o ccurs in the field. So in all likelihood the vast 6 m ajority of the motors that you sell are greater 7 h orsepower than the ones in your certification unit. 8 MR. FLY: Correct. 9 MR. RIVEST: Okay. And if DOE were to buy 10 o ne of those units that -- you know, without specifying 11 t he DOE test conditions, just randomly buy any one -- 12 MR. FLY: Well, for my company you can't buy 13 a unit unless you specify the conditions. And that is 14 t rue of I think some class of the HVAC equipment. Even 15 t hough it's a standard product, that is one of the 16 r equirements. It's like, what's the voltage and what's 17 t he static pressure and CFM you want to run at? 18 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Fine. But the whole base 19 f or this exercise is that we recognize that the -- you 20 k now, there is a need for motors that have more 21 h orsepower than the DOE test conditions. And you don't 22 w ant to be held to the EER rating if you install those

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 m otors. Right? That's why we are doing this. 2 MR. FLY: Right. 3 MR. RIVEST: Okay? 4 MR. FLY: Because you are going to be running 5 a t off the motor -- I mean, you are going to be running 6 a t a point on the fan curve that that fan is not very 7 e fficient and for which it was never intended. 8 MR. RIVEST: Correct. And we understand 9 t hat. So all that DOE is asking is that with that 10 s maller motor that you do end up testing at that that 11 m otor be representative of the motors that are actually 12 b eing installed, that you don't put an ECM in your test 13 u nit and get a grade EER, and then in 99 percent of the 14 u nits you ship you send a definite purpose motor that 15 d oesn't even meet -- 16 MR. FLY: Right. 17 MR. RIVEST: -- the federal minimum. 18 MR. FLY: In that case, I would -- 19 MR. RIVEST: That's the situation we are 20 t rying to avoid. 21 MR. FLY: -- I would have to split into two 22 m odels if I wanted to offer the ECM and claim the ECM

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 e fficiency. 2 MR. RIVEST: Exactly. 3 MR. FLY: Okay. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Unless you have an induction 5 m otor that has a higher relative efficiency than the 6 E CM motor. 7 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Which could happen. 9 MR. RIVEST: Right. I mean, you could elect 10 t o simply your certification to not certify with an ECM 11 i n the baseline. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Or you could certify with an 13 E CM, and then your optional motors could have higher 14 r elative efficiency. 15 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. If that's possible. I 16 d on't know. 17 MR. WHITWELL: It's possible. It is possible 18 MR. RIVEST: Okay. Yeah. And that's 19 p referred by DOE, too. Right. So is that -- I mean, 20 i s that understood? 21 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly with AAON. 22 I 'm going to make one more statement and just, you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 k now, realizing of course as we go up in horsepower the 2 e fficiency gets higher -- 3 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 4 MR. FLY: -- typically, that's the physics of 5 t he thing. And if I've got to have a five percent 6 b etter than minimum standard efficiency, or let's say 7 t hat we do an ECM motor, and because the efficiency at 8 t hat small fractional horsepower minimum efficiency is 9 r elatively low, I could have a huge offset, which may 10 b e extremely difficult to get that same offset if we 11 h ave a really high efficiency. 12 So is it a percentage of the offset? Or is 13 i t -- if I'm five percent -- if I'm 20 percent above 14 m inimum at half horsepower, do I have to be 20 percent 15 a bove minimum at max horsepower? In which case if it's 16 9 5 I can't be 115. 17 MR. RIVEST: So that's the example we will go 18 t hrough. 19 MR. FLY: Okay. 20 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. 21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. When 22 w e were talking about this before, I had suggested that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 o ne possible solution that is much more practical than 2 w hat you have proposed, albeit it not as -- in the 3 a bsolute statement of the efficiency, not as accurate, 4 a nd that was to say that whatever you select in larger 5 h orsepower it has to be either the same efficiency as 6 t he tested motor or the highest efficiency in that size 7 a nd class motor. Is that unacceptable to the 8 D epartment? Because it's the highest that you can get. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you determine that? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from 11 T rane. That doesn't always happen. They aren't 12 c ommercially available -- some of those cases that 13 y ou're talking about. And, yes, I have laryngitis. 14 MR. RIVEST: Sorry, Jill. Can you repeat? I 15 d idn't understand. This is Mike Rivest. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So Frank was I think 17 t alking about the case where you would take -- when you 18 g et into the higher horsepower motors, there becomes an 19 a vailability, commercial availability issue. And so, 20 y ou know, if you have a 10 horsepower motor, and then 21 y our high static now was a 15 horsepower motor, there 22 a re not as many 15 horsepower available in all cases --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 4 8 frame, 56 frame, you know, four pole, six pole, et 2 c etera. 3 So to be able to have the same 4 c haracteristics, the same AEDM be used, the same fan 5 l osses, the same fan curve, et cetera, you are going to 6

- - there might be cases -- I think we found a couple -- 7 w here we would have some issues, and that there isn't a 8 m otor that is of higher efficiency available. 9 Now, I think that your equation here may 10 w ork. I just haven't applied it. 11 MR. RIVEST: Right. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: But not the simplified way that 13 F rank was describing. 14 MR. RIVEST: Right. So I don't have that 15 d ata. What I can tell you is this equation is set up as 16 r eduction in losses, not increase in percentage 17 e fficiency. So as you go up in horsepower -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 19 MR. RIVEST: -- the improvement in efficiency 20 g ets smaller and smaller. And I know that the motor 21 m anufacturers market their motors as bands of 22 e quivalence or bands of improvement of losses. So if

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 w e -- they will try to have a full product line of 10 2 p ercent, 20 percent better than the minimum in terms of 3 l osses. 4 Where I was anticipating problems was with 5 E CMs, because we're talking about a different 6 t echnology there. But, you know, maybe that's not -- 7 m aybe that's not a concern. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI, again. 9 I s it DOE's intent, with regard to motors, that they 10 a re not going to simply buy and not let the 11 m anufacturer know and get whatever they get? Or 12 w henever you have a case where there is a motor 13 i nvolved, you are going to inform the manufacturers, so 14 t hat they can prepare a special unit with lower 15 e fficient motors? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why would we do that? 17 MR. MYERS: Well, I thought that's what I 18 h eard you describe before that was an option for 19 m anufacturers. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So as part of the 21 c ertification that we discussed last week, their base 22 m otor configuration has to be declared. So you would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 d eclare your base motor configuration, whatever it is, 2 w hatever horsepower it is, whatever accommodation, that 3 i s declared at the outset. And that's what we are 4 g oing to acknowledge as your base unit configuration 5 f rom there. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank again, Frank Myers, 7 P VI. So if you wanted to have a more efficient motor 8 o n that product, but you needed to cover the larger 9 m otors, then you would have to put a less efficient 10 m otor on there instead? 11 MR. RIVEST: Absolutely not. You would 12 c ertify two groups. 13 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I 14 t hink I'm okay with this. My concern comes that it is 15 k ind of a quasi-regulation of motors not covered by 16 f ederal standards, and I'm just concerned that it seems 17 t o be on the kind of edge of the law. I mean, I think 18 i t works, but it is almost like we're trying to 19 r egulate motors that are not covered by federal 20 s tandards. 21 MR. RIVEST: Karen -- Mike Rivest -- the way 22 I see this, it is simply -- you know how in the basic

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 m odel definition there are words like "same or 2 e quivalent," same or equivalent heat exchanger, same or 3 e quivalent this. So this is just "same or equivalent 4 m otor." It is not -- it is actually not forcing you to 5 u se any specific level. If you saw the rewriting of 6 t hat, it actually explicitly says you can use a motor 7 l ess efficient than the federal minimum. But it's just 8 d efining what "same or equivalent motor" means in the 9 c ontext of grouping all of these units. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And just to follow on, 11 I think what it also is -- it is same or equivalent to 12 g ive you the performance that you are demonstrating as 13 y our base. So, in other words, what it is doing is 14 s aying you have represented a certain level of 15 p erformance in your base unit, and what this is saying 16 i s that, you know, by default the motors that you 17 s witch out have to have the relative performance at the 18 c onditions that are intended to be used at, on their 19 c urves, as the one you are using in the base, which 20 w ould impact -- it is not regulating the motor 21 e fficiency. It is allowing you flexibility to use the 22 d ifferent types of motors at the different conditions

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 o utside of the test procedure, to provide that unique 2 u tility to the customer that they want, but providing 3 t he same relative performance of your equipment. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky from 5 D OE. I guess what we're trying -- when we first started 6 t his, what the manufacturer said is that our base model 7 p latform didn't include the motor. It included the 8 o ther components, and you routinely change out the 9 m otor but don't change the basic model. 10 And what we're saying is, okay, fine, but DOE 11 r ecognizes that the motor does have a big impact on the 12 e nergy consumption. So how can we control for that 13 w ithout having to rejigger your whole idea of basic 14 m odel? So I think that is our goal here, and I think 15 t his does that in a pretty -- what I would think a 16 s imple way. 17 MR. FLY: Okay. This is Mark Fly again. So 18 I 'm going to have an ECM offering in this five-ton 19 u nit. I'm going to have something that has a lot more 20 s tatic, say it takes a five-horsepower motor instead of 21 t his half- horsepower motor that I've got as an ECM. 22 S o I will list an ECM unit model with, you know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 w hatever -- my 17 SEER, if that's what it happens to 2 b e. And then I will have another model with a much 3 l ower SEER, so you cannot buy the 17 SEER above a 4 c ertain static level because it is going to limit out 5 o n the motor that I can do with an ECM motor because of 6 p roduct availability. 7 So I'm just thinking out loud here to make 8 s ure that we're all kind of on the same page. You 9 k now, so, yeah, I'll have a standard -- I'll have my 10 h igh efficiency unit, and I can have my standard 11 e fficiency unit that you could buy. And if you want 12 t wo and a half inches or three inches static pressure 13 o n that, instead of .2 inches, then you are going to 14 h ave to buy the standard because I can't get to the 15 h igh efficiency at that static level. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 17 W hat you just described is my understanding as well. 18 R ight. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I think that's the whole 20 p oint here is that -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I would agree. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- is that we don't want you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 t o represent that model as a 17 when it's really a -- 2 I 'm making up numbers -- 14 or whatever. Okay. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Because of technology. I was 5 g oing to say -- this is Jill from Trane -- because of 6 t echnology availability, you know, it is going to 7 i ncrease our basic model count just by what you just 8 d escribed, and -- you know, and that is going to be the 9 n ature of it until ACMs can get up in the higher 10 h orsepowers. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. This is Bob Whitwell 12 f rom Carrier. I have another question. So let's say 13 a n example where a model uses a seven and a half, 10, 14 1 5 horsepower motor options. So the seven and a half 15 h orsepower motor in this case is, let's say, two points 16 l ower loss than the minimum -- the efficiency standard, 17 a nd the 10 and 15 are right at the efficiency. 18 So can the manufacturer in this case use an 19 A EDM and rate the base product with a seven and a half 20 h orsepower motor correcting or adjusting the motor 21 w atts based on the difference between that motor's 22 e fficiency and the minimum efficiency? So represent

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 t he efficiency at -- with a seven and a half horsepower 2 m otor, based on an adjustment of the fan power to bring 3 i t down to what it would be with a federal minimum. 4 T hat way they don't have to have separate basic models 5 f or the 10 horsepower and the 15 horsepower motor. 6 MR. RIVEST: I guess the devil is in the 7 d etails of how you would disclose that and everything, 8 b ut it leaves the consumer whole. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. And one other 10 q uestion. So on the smaller motors, say the 48, 56 11 f rame, they are not regulated by DOE, so there is not a 12 m inimum efficiency. How would that be checked to make 13 s ure that -- you know, what the motor efficiency is for 14 t he product that is being certified versus the product, 15 t he other motor options? 16 MR. RIVEST: You're saying they're not? I 17 t hink they are regulated. 18 MS. MEYERS: That was my question. That was 19 k ind of what my question was earlier. 20 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. Those standards 21 t ake effect in 2015. And I don't know if the NEMA 22 t ables have been updated to reflect the federal

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 s tandards, so that could be an issue with the tables 2 b eing different and maybe affecting which motors 3 w ouldn't be included in a basic model once the standard 4 t akes effect. 5 MR. RIVEST: So there are definitely NEMA 6 t ables of efficiency for those products. They are just 7 n ot federal minimum requirements, but we could 8 r eference those tables, understanding these are just 9 s calers. They're not -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: No, I understand. And I 11 u nderstand the approach. My question is more that the 12 m anufacturer may be using a motor that is different 13 t hat may be more efficient than that. And let me see, 14 s o for the motors that are regulated by DOE, I believe 15 t hat all of the efficiencies are labeled on the motors. 16 On the ones that are not, I'm not sure that 17 t hey are always put on the motor. So the question is: 18 h ow would DOE enforce this? Or what is the approach 19 t hat DOE has to enforce this? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, so you're referencing 21 t he name plates, right? I mean, that's what you're 22 t alking about.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So, you're right, 3 t here's no name plate requirements yet for small 4 e lectric motors. There is a separate rule dealing with 5 s uch things. I think it is fair to say what we do 6 h ave, though, is testing procedures in place if we 7 n eeded to use them. They are already on the books for 8 s mall -- they were, you know, on the books for -- in 9 o rder for us to put standards in place. So if we 10 n eeded to get to that point, we could. Hopefully we 11 n ever get to that point. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So basically it's the - 13

- you're relying on the manufacturers to -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. It's on you guys, 15 r ight? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Okay. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: The responsibility is on you 18 g uys to make sure you make a compliant product, right? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yep. Okay. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 21 S ince the current minimum requirements for these 22 p roducts and the current ratings for these products

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 w ere based on the test conditions, and those were 2 v alidated through numbers collected from the AHRI 3 c ertification program at test conditions, isn't this 4 n ew rule going to cause some piece of equipment that 5 t oday show one efficiency to show a lower efficiency, 6 a nd those that are on the borderline are no longer 7 g oing to be compliant? 8 So it seems like an elevation of the minimum 9 r equirements that either begs for another class of 10 e quipment, something other -- at a pressure units that 11 o perate at -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you saying there are 13 p roducts right now being made that don't meet the 14 s tandard? 15 MR. MYERS: No. I'm saying that there are 16 p roducts that are made based -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you're asking us 18 t o acknowledge. 19 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you're asking us 21 t o acknowledge. 22 MR. MYERS: What is your belief? Do you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 b elieve that that's the case? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would hope not. 3 MR. MYERS: So you don't believe that the 4 s ubmarine air conditioner would have a different 5 e fficiency following this requirement than what it 6 w ould have otherwise? Since this was not part of the 7 A HRI certification program? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I mean, I'll 9 l et the manufacturers speak. It seems like most of 10 t hem understand this, and at least on the outside are 11 s emi- comfortable with this position. Maybe not ready 12 t o wholeheartedly embrace, but semi-comfortable with 13 w here it is going. So -- 14 MR. MYERS: Well, in that case, I'll ask the 15 m anufacturers, are you comfortable that you can look at 16 a ll of the possible custom pieces of equipment that 17 y our customers will ask for, understand exactly what 18 m otor will be required for all of your different 19 v ariations, so that you can make that determination to 20 s et up a new line of products that would de-rate down 21 t o that minimum motor efficiency level at test 22 c onditions. Is that -- are you agreeing that that's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 s omething that's practical and reasonable and your 2 m odel offerings will be acceptable in the marketplace 3 d oing that? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 5 T here is some new information that's up there today, 6 b ut based on my understanding of it today, yes, I think 7 w e will be okay. We may need to make a few adjustments 8 t o some motors in some cases, but I think we can 9 c omply. 10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 11 I think what DOE is proposing here is a workable 12 s olution. 13 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry? 14 MR. AMRANE: It's a workable solution. I 15 t hink it's fine. 16 MR. EISNER: Okay. 17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. I think it 18 w ould be extremely useful for those applying it, 19 t hough, to reproduce in the guidance or somewhere the 20 t able of efficiency, so that we know exactly what 21 y ou're looking at, so that we are all looking at the 22 s ame thing.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 And I guess, you know, I brought up the 2 e xtreme case of the submarine coolers because that was 3 a former company. And there is some possibility that 4 a t some level on some extreme cases that you will not 5 b e able to offer that product. And we'll just have to 6 t ell the Air Force they can't have it, or the Navy they 7 c an't have it, so I don't know what to do. 8 MR. RIVEST: Excuse me. I would really like 9 t o -- 10 MR. FLY: But I haven't because I haven't 11 l ooked at it. 12 MR. RIVEST: I would really like to emphasize 13 h ere that this in no way limits product offerings. It 14 m ay limit the extent of grouping, but absolutely does 15 n ot limit what can be offered to the market. 16 MR. FLY: Unless it falls below minimum 17 s tandards. 18 MR. RIVEST: I will repeat: this in no way 19 l imits product offerings to the market. 20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem, and I 21 w ould disagree with that a little bit, because it may 22 t ake some -- it may initially limit because there is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 g oing to have to be some analysis done and perhaps some 2 n ew products applied. 3 Like I said before, I think this is a 4 w orkable solution. I will be hesitant to vote on this 5 t oday until I truly go back and really understand the 6 i mpact on our product offering, if any. I mean, you 7 k now, I think I'm okay with it, but -- and the other 8 k ey component of this is, you know, when this would be 9 e ffective, because we may have to change a lot of 10 g roupings. I don't know that. But if we have to 11 c hange groupings and redo all of that, that takes a lot 12 o f resources and time and testing and all of that kind 13 o f stuff, to make sure that we have this -- that we can 14 d o this. 15 And, again, I think we came up with a pretty 16 u nique workable concept, but applying it is -- and the 17 t ime to do that is another issue. 18 MR. RIVEST: I understand your -- the time 19 e lement here. Yes. 20 MS. MEYERS: So, you know, if -- 21 MR. RIVEST: So, in other words, if you were 22 t o just today, you know, eliminate products that don't

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 m eet this rule, that would have an impact to your 2 c ompany. 3 MS. MEYERS: It possibly -- 4 MR. RIVEST: Given time -- 5 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 6 MR. RIVEST: -- there is nothing here that 7 p revents you from recertifying; right? 8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 9 MR. RIVEST: I understand what you're saying. 10 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane from Rheem again. 11 I just want to expand on it. I think part of it, we 12 a re all thinking about we keep the refrigeration 13 p ortion the same and change the motors in and out. And 14 o ur pricing and the way we do things are all based on 15 k ind of this unit being designed, and then you are 16 a pplying different motors to it. 17 You're right, there is nothing to stop us 18 f rom designing this one-of-a-kind piece of equipment to 19 b e really a one of a kind, but there would be a lot -- 20 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry. What one of a kind? 21 MS. JAKOBS: Well, just, you know, if it had 22 a high horsepower motor. And to get the efficiency up

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 t o the correct level, with that high horsepower motor, 2 i t would require a redesign of the whole thing. And 3 t hat would affect the pricing, the amount of 4 e ngineering time. You know, it would really be an all 5 n ew thing from the ground up, a whole new design. And 6 t hat's just kind of not the way we are doing things. 7 So that would mean that product wouldn't be 8 a vailable. You know, maybe it wouldn't be worth it for 9 t he money. Maybe the people wouldn't want to buy it 10 f or what they -- if they really paid for something 11 e ngineered from the ground up for their one-of-a-kind 12 a pplication, it might not be economically feasible 13 a nymore. 14 MR. RIVEST: So, of course, there are 15 b usiness decisions that each company will have to make 16 a bout the level of aggregation of certification versus 17 t he -- you know, versus redesigning certain products. 18 S o you can always make your -- you could put a less 19 e fficient motor in your certification unit, so that you 20 h ave, you know, motors that comply throughout your 21 p roduct range of grouping, or you can cut out your 22 g roupings in different ways. So you do, I understand,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 h ave to do some analysis and see what the impacts are 2 i n your company. I understand that. 3 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah. And size constraints and, 4 y ou know, roof curves and all of it, yeah. 5 MR. RIVEST: But remember here, the starting 6 p oint is we are certifying an EER rating based on a 7 s mall motor that is often replaced by a much larger 8 m otor for field conditions. And we are making 9 r epresentations on the basis of the small motor. 10 So this is a small step into I think getting 11 m ore accurate consumer information, and it is certainly 12 n ot, you know, as large a step as could be taken, you 13 k now. If you had to literally give an EER rating based 14 o n the motors that are installed and shipped, that 15 w ould be a much bigger headache for you. You would 16 h ave to de- rate every product. 17 MS. JAKOBS: But the regulation was based on 18 t he data in the ARI directory. So does that mean you 19 w ould have to redo your whole analysis? Because we -- 20 i t was based on certain assumptions. 21 MR. RIVEST: I was -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we are moving in the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 w rong direction here. We are going forward here. 2 MR. RIVEST: We are going forward. I think 3 t he time element is something to think about. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 5 MR. RIVEST: But this is the goal, where we 6 a re trying to go. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Would it be possible to email 8 t his out to us, so that we can share it with some folks 9 a nd -- 10 MR. RIVEST: Sure. 11 MR. WHITWELL: -- get some feedback? 12 MR. RIVEST: Yep. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 14 MR. EISNER: I have a couple of questions. 15 T here have been comments about whether the tables would 16 b e available to them. I guess they're the ones that 17 a re in here, the NEMA tables. Is there any reason 18 t hese can't be incorporated by reference or otherwise 19 m ade available? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We need to look at some 21 v ariations. But we can at least make what is on the 22 s lides available immediately. And then to the extent

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 w e need additional information for other types or other 2 t ables, we can look into that. Let us -- give us a 3 c hance to do that, but -- 4 MR. EISNER: And then, again, the question, 5 i s it -- more than one question about timing of the 6 e ffectiveness of this. Are there possibilities you 7 c ould consider that could address their concerns? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So we are going to -- 9 s o right now there is no concept of -- well, the timing 10 f or groupings is December 31st; right? That's what's 11 o n our regs now. However, we have stated that to the 12 e xtent we can get through certification and negotiate 13 w hat gets submitted, we will then pick up the timing; 14 i n other words, when the initial cert gets submitted to 15 t he Department. 16 So I would say get through the next set of 17 s lides. And if we can get through those with a 18 p ositive outcome, then we are going to talk about when 19 t he initial cert -- which would be when the initial 20 g roupings and all of the stuff would have to be 21 s upplied. 22 MR. EISNER: Are there other questions?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 2 J ust since we're on -- the topic of timing has come up, 3 I believe in the current rule it says that it is -- the 4 t iming is based on distribution. Is it possible that 5 t iming could be based on manufacture date, something 6 f or us to talk about as well? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Can I punt the question until 8 w e actually talk about timing? 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. I just wanted to pose 10 i t, so that -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. I -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: -- it was part of the 13 d iscussion. 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- recognize that that's an 15 i ssue. But I think that that's going to be a whole 16 s eparate conversation. 17 MR. WHITWELL: I'm willing to hold on. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. EISNER: Other questions or other 20 c omments? 21 All right. So some people said they need 22 m ore time. What are we talking about in terms of more

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 t ime? 2 MS. MEYERS: When can we get the slides? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: When can we get the slides? 4 E xactly. 5 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I mean, it is going to 6 t ake my company probably at least a week to -- because, 7 y ou know, to dig into the details of this. So if we 8 c ould maybe vote on this at next week's meeting, I 9 t hink we could be ready for a vote. But they are going 10 t o have to look at all of this, our lineup, and see 11 w hat the impact is. So if we could put off until next 12 w eek, that would be helpful. 13 MR. EISNER: Is a week going to be enough for 14 e veryone? Is that okay with everyone? I mean, I would 15 l ike to walk out of this issue with some idea of 16 w hether we're going in the right direction with 17 c onsensus, whether it -- I've heard a lot of positive 18 s tatements about it. Nobody has really been negative 19 o n it, although some have concerns that they want to 20 a ddress. So is anybody going to need more than a week? 21 All right. Well, then, let's look at these 22 s lides again, if there are particular ones you want up

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 o n the screen, see if we can take a vote as to whether 2 s omebody thinks that no matter what they are going to 3 o bject, or whether everybody right now feels that they 4 s hould -- they might be able to live with this or will 5 b e able to live with this. 6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have a 7 q uestion for the group that is speaking right now. 8 W ould they be ready for the next set of meetings? 9 B ecause that is next week. 10 MR. RIVEST: So I have number of additional 11 s lides and a spreadsheet I would like to show. 12 MR. EISNER: On the same -- okay. 13 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 14 MR. EISNER: Let's go through that and then 15 g et back to Charlie's question. 16 MR. RIVEST: I don't want to go step by step. 17 I just want to generally explain what this is. This 18 p articular slide just gives an example of a base unit 19 b eing certified with a five horsepower motor that is 20 m ore efficient than the federal standard. And it goes 21 t hrough the calculation of what would be the required 22 e fficiency of a 10 horsepower motor, just steps you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 t hrough an example. 2 Okay. And that -- the conclusion -- whose 3 g ot the controls? Okay. Can you go to the previous 4 s lide? So the summary here was that a unit with a 10 5 h orsepower motor that is certified with a basic model 6 h aving a five horsepower motor at 91.7 percent 7 e fficient would be required to have a 10 horsepower 8 m otor with a minimum efficiency of 93.5. 9 Slide 8, please. 10 This is just a very condensed -- not really 11 c ondensed, but a very limited subgroup of data that I 12 h ave on a spreadsheet that can be shared with you. It 13 j ust -- this is the table of efficiency requirements 14 c oming out of I think it's NEMA 12.12. These are the 15 e fficiency requirements for four pole, open frame, 16 g eneral purpose motors. 17 The column on the left, you see the 18 h orsepower rating, you see the efficiency requirements, 19 a nd then just calculated using the previous equations, 20 w hat the efficiencies are for a motor five percent 21 b elow, 10 percent below, five percent above, 10 percent 22 a bove.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 So the way you would use this is to look at 2 w hat your motor is. So let's say you have a five 3 h orsepower motor. The minimum standard is 85.5, and it 4 t urns out that your baseline motor is an 88.6. Then, 5 t he column where the 88.6 is becomes your efficiency 6 t able for that grouping. 7 The spreadsheet has this information, but it 8 g oes from -- in increments of one percent efficiency 9 l osses up to 30, up and down. So it would be used in 10 t he same way. 11 So here let's say you have a 10 horsepower 12 m otor. You might want to scroll completely to the left 13 t here. So the minimum efficiency standard is a 91.7, 14 b ut that's not what you have in your baseline. Let's 15 s ay you have a definite purpose motor that is less 16 e fficient than the minimum standard, so you would go 17 a long that row, see where your motor is. Let's say 18 i t's got 91.1. Okay? So that column where the 91.1 is 19 i s your column of efficiencies for your grouping. 20 So that should be pretty easy to work. If 21 a nyone wants to go through the math -- I hope they do. 22 I , you know, obviously checked, but that's how it could

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 b e workable. Now -- 2 MS. MEYERS: And, Mike, can you just walk me 3 t hrough one more time -- 4 MR. RIVEST: Sure. 5 MS. MEYERS: -- for like less than one 6 h orsepower motors how -- 7 MR. RIVEST: So I could prepare a very 8 s imilar table. 9 MS. MEYERS: That would be very helpful. 10 MR. RIVEST: Yep. 11 MS. MEYERS: Thank you. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jeremiah is going to send the 13 s lides out momentarily, and then we could send the 14 E xcel sheets out. 15 MS. MEYERS: And the spreadsheet, too? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We'll do that 17 s ubsequent. 18 MR. RIVEST: If you scroll down, does that go 19 b eyond 200? Yeah. So I'm referencing a different 20 t able for above 200. I don't know if anyone here uses 21 m otors above 200 horsepower. I didn't think so. So I 22 c ould probably reference another table for the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 f ractionals. 2 Notice this is for four pole open-type 3 m otors. The reality is, it doesn't really matter 4 b ecause it's a scaler. So we can make this simple by 5 j ust agreeing that this is the most common type of 6 m otor. I don't know. What is the most common type of 7 m otor used in your products? Is it four pole? 8 MR. THARP: For us, yes. 9 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. And it's probably open 10 t ype. So this would be the most common type of motor. 11 I mean, we can just agree to use this. If we -- if 12 s ome do use two pole, six pole, eight pole, and it's a 13 d ifferent table of efficiencies, they're not that 14 d ifferent. They probably don't scale much differently. 15 B ut, I mean, we could create these tables for other 16 t ypes of motors. 17 MR. EISNER: And when do you think you'll 18 h ave the less than one available? 19 MR. RIVEST: I'll try to do it today. 20 MR. EISNER: Does that make everybody 21 c omfortable with them being able to talk about this 22 n ext week? Are there any other questions?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 2 I 'll say that the NEMA table that is referenced is 3 a ctually the same that's in 10 CFR 43125. I would 4 p refer to have the reference to the CFR as opposed to a 5 N EMA table. 6 MR. RIVEST: Yeah. I would, too, because I 7 l ike to sell those MG-1s. 8 MR. THARP: And on the fractional horsepower 9 m otors, it was mentioned that there is a federal 10 r egulation that has been issued but not yet 11 i mplemented. 12 MR. RIVEST: Right. 13 MR. THARP: And I would suggest just 14 r eferencing to what has been released. And do you 15 k now, where is that at? Is that in 430? 16 MR. BALLO: It's in the CFR. It is just not 17

- - there is an effective date that is also listed in 18 t he CFR that is in 2015, so -- but it's in the CFR. 19 MR. THARP: 429? 430? 20 MR. BALLO: 431, subpart X. I don't know. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's towards the end 22 o f 431.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other comments? Other 2 q uestions? 3 All right. In terms of where we stand on 4 t his, does anybody believe that they will still object 5 n o matter what they learn over the next week? Is that 6 a yes? 7 MS. MEYERS: I think I'll have to wait to see 8 w hat the timing discussion -- how that turns out. 9 MR. EISNER: In terms of the effectiveness of 10 t hese. Okay. Are there others who have serious 11 c oncerns with this as it exists right now? Does 12 a nybody object to my stating that as a general matter 13 e verybody believes this is workable but they have to 14 l ook at the details? Nobody objects? 15 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I 16 t hink it's workable. I don't know -- you know, the 17 t iming is critical. 18 MR. EISNER: Effectiveness, yeah. 19 MR. MYERS: It's very critical. 20 MR. EISNER: Okay. And nobody abstains? All 21 r ight. 22 Okay. Why don't we take a 10-minute break?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 2 MR. EISNER: Does this bring us up to 3 C ertification General? The next slide? Certification 4 P rocess. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So these slides probably look 6 p retty familiar. I don't think we need to go through 7 a ll of it again. But if anyone has any questions, we 8 c an try again, but -- 9 MR. EISNER: Slide 11, I guess. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Go on to 12, 13. Okay. So 11 r eady to vote? 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions? We did go 13 o ver these last week. Any problems? Concerns? Tim? 14 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I do have one 15

- - I mean, I am going to object to this, just on one 16 n arrow ground, that I do think the manufacturer 17 i dentity should be public. You know, that's the only - 18

- that's the entire extent of my objection. So if that 19 w ants to be -- if you want to note that. Other than 20 t hat, I have no problem. 21 MR. EISNER: Let me specifically note the 22 b asis for the objection. I think that is valuable

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 i nformation. Any other comments? Questions? 2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. A procedural 3 q uestion because I don't remember our ground rules. 4 H ow many objections would prevent it from passing? 5 MR. EISNER: More than two, as I recall. 6 MS. BARHYDT: More than three. Three. 7 MR. EISNER: Three. 8 MR. SACHS: Then I will probably join Tim in 9 f eeling that information should be public. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. You want, in other words, 11 t he same basis? You want the same basis? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Does the address have to be 13 p ublic? This is Jill from Trane. Does the address 14 h ave to be public? Can the name only be public? 15 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. That would be fine 16 w ith me. 17 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell. What is 18 t heir reason for wanting to have that public? 19 MR. BALLO: It has never come up for 20 c ommercial equipment. But for residential equipment, 21 i t has been an issue for my organization, trying to 22 i dentify the source of a problem, in meeting labeling

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 r equirements. If a product is not labeled correctly, 2 i s it because the retailer has done something wrong or 3 b ecause the manufacturer has done something wrong? 4 And when we see products that are from a 5 p rivate labeler, if we can trace that back to the 6 m anufacturer, it's easier for us to determine, well, 7 i t's a problem at the factory, not a policy of the 8 p articular private labeler not policing the labeling. 9 So it is mostly I'm objecting because at some 10 p oint in the future I may submit a Freedom of 11 I nformation Act request to find out the identity of a 12 m anufacturer. So I would like to not have to do that. 13 O r, if I do submit the Freedom of Information Act 14 r equest, it may end up in court. And I can't take a 15 p osition here that would be accepting of manufacturer 16 n ame being withheld. So that's why I'm objecting. 17 MR. EISNER: Any other -- 18 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. And 19 I join, making it a third. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, and I will 21 t hen drop my objection, so we have two objections and 22 t his can go forward. But we have the record. Thank

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 y ou. 2 Marshall, you get to object if I don't. 3 MR. EISNER: Let me ask whether it would 4 e liminate the need for objections if the agency put 5 s omething in the preamble asking for comment on the 6 i ssue. 7 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. That would be fine 8 w ith me, although, I mean, my position is pretty clear 9 o n this. So I don't think that is going to change, but 10

- - 11 MS. BARHYDT: Do the manufacturers object to 12 h aving manufacturer made public? 13 MR. WHITWELL: I would object to that. 14 MR. MYERS: Yes. This is Frank Myers, PVI 15 I ndustries. Yeah, that is objectionable. 16 MR. EISNER: May I ask why it's 17 o bjectionable? Are you comfortable with that? 18 MR. WHITWELL: In some cases, for some niche 19 p roducts, we might choose to source a product from a 20 t hird -- from another manufacturer, and we would prefer 21 n ot to have that information publicly available. It 22 w ould be sold under our brand, so we would take

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 r esponsibility for the equipment. But we would prefer 2 n ot to have public awareness of who is manufacturing 3 t his product for us if in fact we are not manufacturing 4 i t ourselves. 5 MR. EISNER: Frank, is that the same for you? 6 MR. MYERS: That's basically it. 7 MR. EISNER: Is there something here in terms 8 o f manufacturer taking responsibility in some public 9 d ocument that would address your concerns? If Carrier 10 s aid, "For all our products, whether we source them out 11 t o a subcontractor or not, we hereby take full 12 r esponsibility" kind of a statement. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Let me edit that a little bit, 14 b ecause we may in fact decide that we would not do the 15 c ertification for a product. It might be the 16 m anufacturer that does the certification for us. But 17 i f we are doing the certification, we would take 18 r esponsibility for that. 19 However, whether we are doing that or not, we 20 w ould stand behind the product from a warranty 21 p erspective and, you know, product support perspective. 22 MR. EISNER: If the manufacturer, the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 s ubcontractor, does the certification, what does that 2 m ean in terms of who is applying to DOE? 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, that would mean, so the 4 m anufacturer who is doing the certification, and the 5 p rivate labeler name and address in this case, could be 6 u s. Okay? So it would be our name up there as private 7 l abeler but a different name for the manufacturer, 8 r ight? So I'd prefer in that case that our name be 9 s hown, but not the manufacturer. 10 MR. EISNER: Does this help in any way, or 11 a re you still going to object? 12 MR. HON: Question. How does that work as 13 f ar as if you're bringing product in from another 14 c ountry? Isn't that a separate category? 15 MS. BARHYDT: So we do not currently have a 16 d istinction in our regulations between an importer 17 m anufacturer and an OEM builder manufacturer. But, 18 y eah, on the search sheet there is the distinction. 19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Could you 20 d escribe for me the circumstance where the -- I think 21 i t's the fourth line down, "Private labeler name and 22 a ddress, public info, if applicable," could you give me

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 a n example or two of what you mean by that? 2 MS. BARHYDT: So a private labeler is, like 3 B ob was just saying, where they put the Carrier brand 4 o n it, and there is someone else building the unit for 5 t hem. Carrier is the private labeler. 6 MR. MYERS: Okay. So if Carrier buys that 7 f rom Company XYZ, and it puts the Carrier brand on it, 8 C ompany XYZ has a responsibility to do this because 9 t hey're a manufacturer of -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Not necessarily. It depends. 11 MR. WHITWELL: There are options. It could 12 g o either way, correct? 13 MS. BARHYDT: So the manufacturer has the 14 r esponsibility to submit the certification. If it's a 15 d omestic manufacturer, then, yes, the domestic 16 m anufacturer has the responsibility to make sure that 17 i t is certified. In many cases, the private labeler, 18 C arrier, would submit the certification. The main 19 t hing is that it has to be certified. But the 20 o bligation is on the manufacturer. It just -- it 21 d epends on whether it is domestic or foreign 22 m anufacturer.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 MR. MYERS: Okay. This is Frank Myers, PVI, 2 a gain. If my company bought something from Company XYZ 3 a nd they were the manufacturer, and they, therefore -- 4 i n the U.S., and they, therefore, had responsibilities 5 f or reporting to -- what many of us are attempting to 6 n ot have as public information is the linkage between 7 t he two. 8 So if I'm buying XYZ, but it goes out of my 9 d oor in my catalogue as a PVI product, then I don't 10 w ant the documents in XYZ's report saying, "PVI is 11 b uying this model." We are not wanting to expose to 12 t he consumer the difference. The product is still 13 c ertified, it still has to be verified to the 14 D epartment, but the linkage, the marketing linkage, is 15 t he difficulty. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So brand is required. So the 17 P VI would still be on the certification report. I can 18 t ell you that we have manufacturers who submit a 19 c ertification for a variety of models with various 20 b rands on it. And Tim can tell you that we have not 21 r eleased the manufacturer's name, so that linkage has 22 b een withheld in the past.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 MR. MYERS: How does the phrase "public info" 2 r elate to that? 3 MS. BARHYDT: So the private labeler is 4 a ssociated with the brand. So private labeler and 5 b rand are public. It's the manufacturer that is not 6 p ublic. 7 MALE SPEAKER: If there is a private labeler, 8 t hen it becomes public information. 9 MS. BARHYDT: It is just the OEM would be 10 s ubmitting all of the information. So DOE knows who 11 t he EOM is, but that's not something that we publish on 12 o ur website. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We wouldn't put it on our 14 w ebsite. Right. 15 MR. MYERS: Okay. What you've described, I 16 a m still having difficulty reading that into public 17 i nfo for public labeler. But if that's the practice, 18 i f that's what the manufacturers want to continue to 19 h ave, it is not to hide the efficiency of the product 20 f rom the Department, it's -- the linkage is fine for 21 t he Department to have. It's that it is not in the 22 p ublic domain. So you are able to track everything.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I'm 2 u nderstanding this that -- and it is probably easier to 3 t alk about -- I'm going to use a residential example, 4 b ut I think the same principle applies in this case, 5 t hat -- and, excuse me, I'll use a common one. 6 Okay. Sears used to private label tons of 7 s tuff, right? And so in this circumstance what would 8 s how up, even though Sears wasn't making any of that, 9 w hat would show up in DOE's list is Sears as the 10 p rivate labeler. So that would be the public 11 i nformation, correct? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 13 MR. STANONIK: And so if you -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, it would say Kenmore, 15 b ut yes. 16 MR. STANONIK: Depends what you're buying. 17 B ut, so in a similar circumstance with a commercial 18 p roduct, let's take a major distributor of commercial 19 e quipment. Let's see -- like Nolan or something. Okay? 20 I f Nolan was branding air conditioners, then, again, 21 t hey would be a private label, and that's what would 22 s how up in DOE's lists. So I think that's what they're

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 s aying is if there is a private label, that is what is 2 p resented to the public as these are Nolan models or 3 w hatever. 4 And on the flip side, if it's simply a 5 C arrier product, well, then, the Carrier name would 6 s how up on the list. 7 MR. HON: Question. Charlie Hon. Would this 8

- - because you have a manufacturer name and address, 9 p rivate label name and address, are those separate 10 c olumns? I'm asking this because if you're a private 11 l abeler, then, therefore, there would be a blank in the 12 m anufacturing, which would trigger the view of this is 13 n ot being made by -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: No. There is no -- so the way 15 i t actually is presented on the screen, there is no 16 m anufacturer column at all. So it's not like you would 17 s ee that there is a hole. 18 MR. HON: Okay. That's what I was wondering. 19 MS. BARHYDT: And we don't publish the 20 a ddress online either. 21 MR. HON: Okay. 22 MR. EISNER: Other questions?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 MS. BARHYDT: Most people don't really want 2 t he address. 3 MR. HON: A guy I used to work for, we would 4 s pecify -- we had a lot of contract manufacturing done 5 f or us. We were the designer, the part specifier. The 6 m anufacturer was nothing more than a -- collect all the 7 p arts and put it together, who is then the 8 m anufacturer. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it being done here or 10 o verseas? 11 MR. HON: That's -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer is different. 13 T hat's why. 14 MR. HON: I know. That's why I'm asking 15 b ecause we did both in the past. I'm just trying to 16 g et it clarified in my head because -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: So the ones that are made 18 a broad, that's the easiest one. It's the importer. 19 MR. HON: It's the importer. I know that -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: The ones that are assembled 21 h ere, it would be the person who assembles it. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be the person who

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 p uts it all together and puts it in the box. 2 MR. HON: Thank you. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions? 4 MR. BALLO: I'm sorry to do this, but now 5 t hat we've hashed all of that out, I have to amend what 6 I said earlier, because I do object to one other piece 7 o f this. 8 The U.S. Customs and Border Protection ID 9 n umber, I think that also needs to be public, and 10 h ere's why. If I am making a product offshore and 11 d on't provide that number, it doesn't -- it is not 12 c lear to me that Customs has all of the information it 13 n eeds to locate that product when it comes into a 14 s hipment and know that it is not in DOE's database, or 15 k now that it violates a standard. 16 If you have that information, then Customs 17 k nows who to look for. So I'm not sure I'm making that 18 c lear, but do you get what I'm saying, Laura? 19 MS. BARHYDT: I do. And -- 20 Mr. BALLO: So without seeing that 21 i nformation in the database, I don't know that a 22 m anufacturer is providing that information to DOE and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 t hat the product can actually be stopped at port if 2 i t's found to violate a standard. I obviously haven't 3 t hought this through, but I do have a concern about 4 t hat. 5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. 6 T im, I think -- I mean, I guess I can repeat this just 7 t o make sure. I think the last thing you said is 8 s omething about that DOE wouldn't then know really 9 w hether Customs had the information. All right? If 10 i t's not public. 11 But my belief is that if in fact -- if this 12 w as the requirement, the way it is right now, and in 13 f act you then saw that model listed in DOE's database, 14 i t means they have the information. Because I'll just 15 t ell you up to now our experience as operating AHRI's 16 p rograms and sending data to DOE is that they go 17 t hrough those listings with a fairly fine-tooth comb. 18 And so I'm not saying it would be impossible, 19 b ut I think it would be very unlikely that a product 20 w ould end up being listed if that information was 21 r equired and it wasn't provided. So to me the 22 e xistence of it being listed in the database would say,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 " If it is imported, we have that number." 2 MR. BALLO: Would it, though? I mean, for a 3 s mall manufacturer that is not part of AHRI, would 4 p eople necessarily -- would DOE necessarily know when 5 t hey get a certification that doesn't include an 6 i mporter ID number that the manufacturer is not a 7 d omestic manufacturer? 8 MS. BARHYDT: The form has a box where you 9 h ave to mark that you are either a domestic 10 m anufacturer or an importer. 11 MR. BALLO: Okay. Well, that's helpful. So 12 i f it's -- I mean, that's my concern, though, that I 13 c an't see that DOE has all of the information that it 14 n eeds to provide to Customs to enforce at the border if 15 a product is found not to violate. So it puts me in 16 t he position of trusting DOE to always be on the ball 17 e nforcing that, and that's what I'm uncomfortable with. 18 I also wonder, just why is that sensitive 19 i nformation? The importer ID number? I mean, I know 20 y ou have mentioned before that some people use their 21 S ocial Security number for -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So we are not going to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 m ake that public, obviously. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions? 3 C oncerns? 4 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 5 N ational. Could I just make -- we seem to have the 6 i ssue between the manufacturer name and the private 7 l abeler name. Would it make sense to have the box be 8 p rivate labeler or manufacturer's name, if you don't 9 h ave -- or both? 10 MS. BARHYDT: We need both. 11 MR. BAUMAN: Well, but if you don't have the 12 p rivate -- that that could be public, one of those two 13 n ames would be -- if it's not a private label product, 14 t he manufacturer name would be public, I would think 15 t hat would satisfy some of the concerns about companies 16 t hat do private label. 17 It's not a private labeled product. Then, 18 t he manufacturer name would appear on that column. If 19 i t is private labeled, then the private label name 20 w ould appear there. So he would have somebody to go 21 b ack to, either the private label or the manufacturer 22 n ame.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think what he's saying is 2 w hen it is private labeled, he doesn't know who the 3 m anufacturer is. And he doesn't know who is 4 r esponsible for the labeling that's not -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, technically, if you 6 l ook at our database right now, I know commercial 7 p roducts aren't on there. But if you look at the 8 c olumns, it's brand. Brand is what you see, model 9 n umber is what you see, and from there. 10 All of this other stuff you see about 11 m anufacturer or private label, this is a list of 12 i nformation we collect. But as we actually administer, 13 w e have all of this stuff in our internal database. 14 I t's just Tim can't see it. When he goes online, all 15 h e sees is brand and model number and rating. 16 MR. BALLO: That said, it would be helpful to 17 h ave the private labeler, or manufacturer if there is 18 n o private labeler. But it does not address the issue 19 o f trying to identify the source of a labeling problem. 20 MR. EISNER: All right. Questions all done? 21 As I understand it, we have two objections on 22 o ne issue, one objection Tim has on another issue, the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 C ustoms ID number. Any other objections? Any 2 a bstentions? Okay. 3 Commercial Warm Air Furnaces. Any questions 4 o n this slide? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I have a question for the 6 c ommercial -- where is he? There he is. Commercial 7 f urnace manufacturers in the room. Is this -- and this 8 i s just because I haven't had a chance to pull the test 9 p rocedure. But, Frank, you may be able to answer this 10 o ff the top of your head, too. 11 Is the configuration -- so is it -- like, in 12 o ther words, could you set up a commercial furnace's 13 u p- flow, down-flow, et cetera, optionally? If so, my 14 o pinion is that you should certify what configuration 15 y ou test it in. 16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. So I 17 g uess -- let me make sure I'm understanding the 18 q uestion. So does the test procedure -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Specify a configuration. 20 MR. STANONIK: -- specify a configuration? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't -- I know the 22 r esidential one does not, and I don't think --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 MR. STANONIK: Wow. I can't answer this one 2 o ff the top of my head, because I don't think there has 3 b een a lot of discussion on the commercial side of the 4 b usiness about configurations because you are simply 5 m easuring thermal efficiency. So it really shouldn't - 6

- I'll be careful, but I don't think it should make a 7 d ifference. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. And I've heard that 9 i t shouldn't make a difference. But that being said, 10 i f there is a difference -- Jill, do you want to -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: It only makes a difference for 12

- - this is Jill from Trane. It only makes a difference 13 i f it has nothing to do with test procedure. Your up14 f low/down-flow makes a difference as far as where you 15 p ut heater safety overloads and how you would put those 16 o verload mechanisms in order to cut off heat when you 17 h ave a problem. It has nothing to do with test -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you don't care what output 19 o r -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- with output thermal 21 e fficiency. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- test then, period.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Right. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Regardless of what you test 3 i t in, you could care less how I test. 4 MR. STANONIK: I would say right now that's 5 c orrect. I mean, we'll obviously go back and 6 d oublecheck, but I'm running through the test procedure 7 i n my mind here, and I just don't see where it should 8 m ake a big difference. You are essentially setting it 9 u p to, you know, get a steady-state, and then you are 10 j ust measuring flue losses. It -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not necessarily 12 d isagreeing with you. I'm sorry, Jill. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: But you have already bought a 14 u nit, and, you know, you're talking about, you know, a 15 p ackage unit. It's already bought in a configuration, 16 a lready -- you have already had it in a configuration. 17 Y ou're not going to turn around and make a different 18 c onfiguration for that unit. It is already either a 19 d edicated horizontal or a dedicated down-flow. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. But I could buy 21 e ither one. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 MR. STANONIK: Right. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. EISNER: Other questions? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're good. 5 MR. EISNER: Or concerns? Any objections? 6 A ny abstentions? Okay. 7 Next issue is Commercial Package Boilers. 8 A ny comments? Questions? 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. The 10 q uestion about the information becoming public is still 11

- - I know we are going to discuss the Freedom of 12 I nformation Act, but I was wondering, the optional 13 s ubmission for additional testing instructions, if that 14 w ere managed by a third party group, the laboratory 15 i tself, would that be sufficient? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at some point, even 17 i f it was managed by the third party, I would get my 18 h ands on it before I test it. And then it would so be 19 w ithin DOE's realm of FOIA. It is not going to 20 a lleviate your concerns. 21 MR. STEPHENS: My question is, why would the 22 D epartment need it instead of the test lab needing it?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because I need to tell the 2 t est lab what to do. I am testing your product. You 3 a re certifying that this is the information you want 4 t he Department to use when testing. The same reason 5 t he test lab can't just call you. Have some faith. 6 MR. EISNER: Other questions? 7 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. Does this 8 o ptional submission include the details of the testing 9 w aiver, if one is applied for? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't even need that. 11 T hat will be public. 12 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if you had -- on the 14 b eginning slide, if you've got -- if you've received a 15 w aiver for the Department, you have to elect that 16 a nyway. So you don't even -- that won't even need to be 17 s ubmitted. That will already be figured out. 18 MR. HALLEY: Fine. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 20 MR. EISNER: Other questions? 21 Ready to vote? Any objections? Any 22 a bstentions?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 Commercial Water Heaters. Take a look at the 2 s lide. Any questions or objections? 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. There 4 i s one item in there that we had discussed before, and 5 t hat is the need to provide -- I can't read that. Let 6 m e look on my copy here. The measured storage volume 7 i n gallons for equipment that is larger than 140 8 g allons. 9 Notwithstanding the next slide, it says here 10 t hat we are supposed to submit -- so are we not going 11 t o submit, for commercial electric storage water 12 h eaters, the measured storage volume in gallons for 13 e quipment that is larger than 140 gallons? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer is it is going to 15

- - 16 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I'm looking at the 17 p revious slide. And if I read that, it says yes. 18 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 19 I 'll make a suggestion that, in that case, could that 20 b e another one of the yes/no's of just -- is the 21 s torage volume over 140? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I kind of remember the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 d iscussion last -- or two weeks ago. I thought we 2 a greed that just -- we would submit storage volume, 3 p eriod. That that was a way that people -- you know, 4 m easured aside, that's a different issue. 5 But I thought we agreed we would submit 6 s torage volume. That's a characteristic. That's how 7 y ou sell your products. You have a rated storage 8 v olume on there. 9 Regardless of whether you measure it or not, 10 t hat's how you identify them, et cetera, et cetera. 11 I thought I heard that that was a non-issue 12 l ast week. 13 MR. MYERS: I thought we were leaving the 14 m easured storage volume off and maintaining those 15 t hings that were required to comply with the 16 p erformance requirements. And this is not one that is 17 r equired to comply with the -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's correct. So 19 t hat's addressed in the second slide. So this is going 20 t o be for the ones that are subject to the standby loss 21 r equirement. And we need to work out the wording, but 22 t hat's what that says.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 But the second one -- for the next slide, for 2 t he 140-gallon issue, this has the yes/no's. But I 3 t hink we still agreed to have storage volume, rated 4 s torage volume, right? And then, if no, if you don't 5 d o -- you know, if you answer no to one of those, then 6 y ou do have to meet the standby loss requirement, 7 i ncluding the measured storage, because the measured is 8 p art of the standby loss. 9 So it's just a matter of clearly articulating 10 t hat, but -- 11 MR. MYERS: I'm not sure how that ties 12 t ogether with the exact wording on the screen. Yeah, 13 t he rated storage volume is required for products that 14 a re 140 gallons or less. 15 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt. Is 16 t he problem the rigidity of the test to get that 17 s torage volume? It seems to me it's something that the 18 g eneral consumer would want to know. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I need to work on the 20 l anguage, but the idea here would be if you are -- if 21 y ou are subject to the storage -- the standby loss 22 s tandard, then you are submitting measured storage

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 v olume as well as standby loss. And then, if you are 2 o pting, because you're 140 gallons or over, to meet 3 t hose three design requirements, you are doing three 4 d esign requirements and yes or no's, and the rated 5 s torage volume. So whatever you are making 6 r epresentations of for your rated. 7 If you opt to say no to one of those design 8 r equirements, and you kick yourself back into the 9 s tandby loss bucket, then you are back to measured and 10 s tandby loss. So it's a matter of working out the ifs, 11 a nd, or buts, in the rule language. But that's the 12 r equirements. 13 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I agree with the basic 14 s tatement that it should match what the requirements 15 a re, but I think you said in there that even if it's 16 n ot needed to meet the requirements because you are 17 o ver 140 gallons, you want the rated volume anyway. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 19 MR. MYERS: And I still don't understand how 20 t hat is required by any legislation or current 21 r egulation. That seems like something the Department 22 j ust wants because they want it, as opposed to it is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 n eeded. 2 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. To that 3 p oint, what is the rationale for not having -- for 4 c hanging that rated storage volume to rated volume 5 g reater than 140 gallons, yes/no? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think Marshall just 7 a nswered it. It is an attribute of the product that is 8 i dentifiable that the consumer wants to know about. 9 S o, and right now in your literature, you have volumes, 10 w hat is the problem with putting it on our website? 11 MS. MEYERS: What is the Department going to 12 d o with the information? I mean, we have it available 13

- - this is Karen Meyers with Rheem. We likely have it 14 a vailable in our sales literature. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. 16 MS. MEYERS: But, again, it kind of goes back 17 t o this discussion we had last week. If a manufacturer 18 e lects not to put it in their sales literature, and 19 p uts a number on there that happens to be false, then 20 w hat -- there is no course of action for the Department 21 t o take, yet the person looking at this information, 22 b ecause it's a government website, I mean, it kind of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 g ives a whole new -- I mean, if you can't enforce 2 a gainst it, then to me it shouldn't be on the website. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to declare a rated 4 s torage volume period to figure out which bucket you're 5 i n. It's like Jeff said. It's just a matter of 6 w hether you say a number or whether you say yes or no. 7 Y ou have to figure it out to figure out which bucket 8 y ou're in. 9 MS. MEYERS: Right. But you're asking for 10 t he specific number. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And just a yes/no. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So if I'm a consumer 13 a nd I'm using this public database to compare across 14 o ptions for me to purchase, and I know I need 150 15 g allons, I would prefer to see the ones that are 150 16 g allons, not just all of the ones that are over 140. 17 MS. MEYERS: I wouldn't object to a yes/no, 18 b ut an exact number I would object to. 19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I 20 m ean, I think we are overthinking this one. If you can 21 g o to the original slide, the first slide. Okay. So 22 i f we just follow the sequence, okay, so I've got a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 c ommercial electric storage water heater. I need -- 2 b ecause of what the minimum -- what the maximum standby 3 l oss is, I need to tell you -- admittedly, I need to 4 t ell you what the storage volume is. Okay? 5 So if you start from there, I'm going to tell 6 y ou the storage volume is either 70 gallons or 168 7 g allons. Okay. If I tell you it's 168 gallons, you 8 k now, I skip this, I go down to the 140. It's 9 e stablished. Okay? 10 Now, let's look at the gas- and oil-fired 11 o nes. I need -- again, because of the standby loss 12 r equirement, I need to tell you in this case what the 13 r ated storage volume is, so you know what the 14 r equirement is. 15 The slight disconnect -- and I think 16 i nconsequential disconnect -- is I am giving you rated 17 w here that other statement actually is talking about 18 1 40 and that was -- it goes back to ASHRAE Standard 90. 19 T hey picked a number really which was like a DMZ kind 20 o f thing. There is no products really that have 140. 21 O kay? 22 And so you can determine from the rated

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 s torage volume of the gas-fired products whether or not 2 i t triggers this 140 requirement. In fact, the 3 m anufacturer will give you that information if that is 4 h ow they are complying because in fact it becomes too 5 d ifficult to comply with the maximum standby loss 6 r equirement. It's not worse. 7 So I don't think you really need -- it's all 8 t here. I don't think you need to say anything else. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. But I clarify it on 10 t he second slide, just to make sure everybody is clear. 11 I mean, we are collecting that, period. I agree. 12 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that was what we agreed 14 t o last week. 15 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. What test 16 p rogram is required to determine the validity of a 17 s tated rated storage volume above 140 gallons? If you 18 h ave a 5,000-gallon rating, is that plus or minus what? 19 I s there a test method for that? Does the Department 20 i ntend to place a test method on that? Since it is not 21 r equired for anything other than just general 22 i nformation? That is my biggest concern. When you get

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 i nto commercial equipment -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's a test 3 p rocedure issue. And if we do decide to, we'd have to 4 g o through a rule to change it. If we decide to set 5 a ny kind of procedure or tolerance around what your 6 r atings can be for volume, we would do that in the test 7 p rocedure rule. There is not one right now. 8 MR. MYERS: For equipment that has a standby 9 l oss rating, there is a -- "rated" has a specific 10 m eaning. Applying that to equipment above 140, because 11 t he standard does not stipulate -- when you call it 12 " rated," it doesn't stipulate where the phrase "rating" 13 i s no longer valid. 14 So if we are applying the rated for 140 15 g allons or smaller to equipment above 140 gallons, then 16 t hat is problematic in 200-gallon, 500-gallon, 5,000- 17 g allon tanks with -- in the commercial world, applying 18 s omething that was designed for 140 gallons is not 19 a ppropriate. 20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. 21 B ecause of what Frank just said, we will object to this 22 l anguage.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I 2 b elieve there are three points on the second slide that 3 s hould not be required information as they are shown, 4 o ne being the rated volume, that that should be a 5 y es/no for the capacities or storage volumes over 140 6 g allons. Under commercial, unfired, hot water storage 7 t anks, the rated storage volume in gallons, there is no 8 e fficiency metric that is tied to that unit of measure. 9 And on the commercial gas-fired instantaneous 10 w ater heaters, the rated storage volume less than 10 11 g allons should be a yes/no rather than an actual 12 v olume, because there is no efficiency metric that is 13 t ied to any of those. It is merely a qualification of 14 a bove or below. So a yes/no would be adequate to meet 15 t he requirements of the federal -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you submit this to AHRI 17 n ow? 18 MR. KLEISS: There is -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer is yes. 20 MR. KLEISS: Yes. Yes. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is the issue? 22 MR. KLEISS: That it is not required --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, why is it okay for 2 t hat one and not this one? 3 MR. KLEISS: Why is it required by the 4 D epartment of Energy? You could use that same question 5 t o a number of additional points of information -- that 6 t he Federal Government, the Department of Energy, does 7 n ot require for these standards. Do we report it 8 s omeplace else? should not be the threshold for 9 d etermining what information we provide to the 10 D epartment of Energy. 11 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I'm 12 g oing to interject here. Right now, in terms of where 13 o ur commercial water heater certification program is, I 14 h ave a serious question whether we are currently 15 l isting any products over 140 gallons complying with 16 t hese criteria, because of the way our program is 17 s tructured, not that we couldn't or wouldn't, but our 18 p rogram is basically for the moment structured around 19 p roducts that fire at 5,000 btu's per hour or less. 20 I guess you could do that with a -- let's 21 s ay, a 150-gallon water heater. But my intuition says 22 t hat if I'm making a water heater with that much

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 s torage, generally I want to have lots of capacity, 2 l ots of input. So I think on that particular point I 3 d on't think we've - - in our programs that we've even 4 a ddressed that particular product very much yet. 5 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. And 6 w e run efficiency programs and put a lot of money and 7 w ill be putting more money especially to get our 8 n atural gas savings up. And it seems to me that this 9 i nformation is very important to implement our other 10 e fficiency program, and it seems so basic to me, I 11 d on't know what the problem is. But we need it, and we 12 n eed to be able to have one place to go -- DOE -- where 13 w e can plan products, we can plan programs, with 14 r eliable data and complete data. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 17 M arshall, a question related to that. Can you help me 18 o ut to understand what it is that you need as far as 19 t he volumes for determination of the energy efficiency? 20 MR. HUNT: Yes. Let's say, for example, that 21 w e have a retrofit program that we are pushing, and we 22 h ave identified through our research at our food

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 s ervice technology lab, or at our lab in San Ramon, 2 t hat we really want to focus on this particular kind of 3 p roduct, which is characterized in part by its volume. 4 W e can't accurately know what models comply unless we 5 k now that rated volume, along with other metrics such 6 a s the efficiency and whatnot. 7 So we're starting to look more and more at 8 w hole systems and the potential for optimizing those, 9 a nd even getting best practices put together. 10 T herefore, we might just have a situation where the 11 g allon storage is a key parameter. I can't say I know 12 a t this moment that we're talking about now and into 13 t he future. 14 It seems to me, again, that we could use that 15 i nformation without having to go -- we don't want to 16 h ave to go to each and every manufacturer, because if 17 w e had a rebate program, for example, we'd want to be 18 a ble to tell distributors there is the list that is 19 q ualifying equipment for the incentive program. 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 21 I guess a question for DOE, would DOE verify -- DOE 22 d oes a test on the water heater to verify the rated

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 s torage volume? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now, our test procedure 3 h as no method to verify our tolerance around it. So 4 t here is no intention there. It really is just to 5 c ollect the information, to make sure you're in the 6 r ight product class, to make -- you know, for consumer, 7 y ou know, representation point of view. I mean, right 8 n ow there is no verification on that rated volume. 9 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane again. I guess, 10 t oo, to make sure that you are in the right category, 11 y ou should say yes or no, it will be -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, this was -- 13 MR. AMRANE: No, I understand. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- products though, Karim, 15 r ight? 16 MR. AMRANE: The reason why maybe some have 17 c oncern about this is that, you know, you don't know 18 t he information will be correct or not. And all of a 19 s udden this number will be on the DOE website, and you 20 w ill not be able to verify in any way that the 21 i nformation is correct. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, let me turn that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 a round. We routinely, unfortunately, receive 2 c ertifications that say, "I am in Box X" when they then 3 p rovide product characteristics that show that actually 4 t hey are in Box Y. If we don't have a number, there is 5 n o way for us to doublecheck that. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Plus, just generally, it is 7 g oing to -- I mean, let's say that you guys end up 8 u sing a basic model scheme with a bunch of asterisks 9 a nd a bunch of -- or completely different from model 10 n umbers that are on your box. 11 You know, this is another attribute of the 12 p roduct with the rated volume to ensure that if we were 13 t o pick a unit for testing that we are matching up the 14 c orrect certification and the expectations of the 15 v alues, and the right standard, considering some of 16 t hese are based on volume, rated volumes or measured 17 v olumes. It is just another way. Otherwise, there is 18 n o link there; right? 19 It is another characteristic product. I fail 20 t o -- this is a fundamental characteristic of a water 21 h eater. I fail to see why this is a big issue. 22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a number. 2 MR. STEPHENS: I think the point is just 3 e xactly what you said. If it lists -- if a 4 m anufacturer volunteers that they are a certain gallon 5 c apacity, and then you test it and they're not, there 6 i s no test method. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So I wasn't talking about 8 t esting. I'm talking about -- I'm going to use a light 9 b ulb as an example. Somebody says, "I have a four foot 10 G SFL that has a color-coordinated temperature of 41,000 11 K elvin." In that very same certification, they tell me 12 t hat it is a U-bend and not a linear lamp. They tell 13 m e that it has a 2,300 Kelvin color-coordinated 14 t emperature. 15 It is not uncommon for people to make errors 16 i n their certifications. And a yes or a no in the 17 w rong column could change whether or not it's a pass or 18 a fail. You tell me the size and I have something to 19 c heck it against and say, "Oh. I think maybe they put 20 a yes, and what they meant was no." 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So and to take that a step 22 f urther, you know, their residential water heater, even

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 t he definitions in the statute, are a little bit 2 c omplex. As Karen asked me last week, "Where is the 3 r esidential test procedure?" 4 I mean, the legislation that got passed that 5 s ays there is this new group of commercial water 6 h eaters that are intended for residential use are going 7 t o depend on those product characteristics. What is 8 v olume? What is -- and we are going to need that 9 i nformation to be able to clearly delineate how things 10 f all out, how they're covered, under which 11 c haracteristics. You are going to need it, too. 12 What standards and test procedures ultimately 13 a re going to apply? While that process is ongoing, 14 t his is going to apply to it. And I fail to -- I mean, 15 t hat's the best reason that I can give you, that that 16 l egislation that passed that said there are certain 17 c ommercial products that are going to be intended for 18 r esidential use, DOE figured out what it is. We've 19 g otten a lot of feedback on that, but they are going to 20 b e based on product characteristics other than just EF 21 o r thermal efficiency. 22 So I think that there are good reasons to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 c ollect that information. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Two 3 p oints. One, we don't have anything 140 gallons or 4 l arger. The second point is I think we are in a 5 s ituation where the -- which came first, the chicken or 6 t he egg? I think what the manufacturers are concerned 7 a bout is if we say we are 141 gallons, plus or minus 8 f ive percent, that is a lot more difficult to meet than 9 1 41 gallons plus or minus 10 percent. 10 So would it be possible for the manufacturers 11 t o propose a tolerance for this that we could all live 12 w ith to meet this requirement? 13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 14 T hat would be problematic. I'm not saying that it 15 c ouldn't be done, but it would require at least on our 16 c ompany's part substantial effort to come up with what 17 w ould be determined. 18 Just to give you an example of what I'm 19 t alking about, our company does not represent specific 20 g allons for our storage tanks. Our company promotes 21 t hem as gallon series. So if you get a 1,000-gallon 22 s eries tank, you have a variety of gallons as

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 d elivered, because you have different things inserted 2 i nto the tank that take up a variety of volumes. 3 There are so many of those that impact the 4 v olume that we don't tell our customers, "You are going 5 t o get X gallons." So there is no plus or minus 6 t olerance. We simply say you are getting a series tank 7 o r you're getting a 5,000-gallon series tank. 8 So coming up with the exact number to put 9 i nto something that is rated is very problematic. 10 U nder 140 gallons, the exact -- or 140 or under, the 11 e xact gallons will show up based on the test procedure. 12 A bove 140 gallons, we use gallon series. 13 So to provide you with, what is the gallons, 14 o kay, for which specific model, which does not impact 15 t he standby loss, does not impact the efficiency. How 16 d o we generate that number? We can give you the gallon 17 s eries, but it is only loosely related, generally 18 r elated, to the specific gallons that that product has. 19 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo, and I'm 20 w ondering if because this is only used currently for 21 p roduct class identification, if we can just have a 22 t olerance around 140 and just say that if it's below --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 o r if it's above 135, it's fine. If it's above 145, 2 t hen it's below or something like that, rather than 3 w orrying about tolerances on the 1,000-gallon ones. 4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. And I 5 a m probably going to regret saying this, but having 6 b een very much involved in the origins of that 7 r equirement, again, that number was picked not with any 8 i ntent of any tolerance. All right? It is the storage 9 c apacity. 10 So a manufacturer who chooses that option, 11 w hich basically says I don't have to run standby loss 12 t ests, I just meet some prescriptive criteria, okay, 13 t he idea is that only applies if the storage volume of 14 t hat model, and all units of that model, are over 140 15 g allons. And I will tell you that that is -- at least 16 f or a gas product that is nominally a rated 150-gallon 17 t ank. Nominally. 18 And there has never been any consideration 19 d iscussion anywhere about some tolerance on that 20 r equirement. So the only issue -- and, again, you 21 k now, I think it could be solved by a yes/no, the only 22 i ssue is that if DOE ever needed to or wanted to, or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 e ven if our program wanted to confirm that a product in 2 f act was compliant with the appropriate requirement, 3 w ould be to check the volume to make sure it was at 4 l east 140 gallons. 5 And I'll tell you that that is, again, a 6 l imited range of products because there is no question 7 t hat Frank's 1,000 series or even his -- I'll dare say, 8 s omebody's 200-gallon series, it is evident from visual 9 t hat it is probably more than 140 gallons easily. And 10 t he real issue is the ones that are right near the 11 m argin. 12 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. I'd like 13 t o amplify Marshall's point, if I can put myself in his 14 s hoes, because it is potentially opportunity rather 15 t han problem for some manufacturers. 16 Consider the possibility that PG&E and some 17 o ther companies decide to offer a rebate of so many 18 d ollars per gallon of capacity, if it is such-and-such 19 a percent higher than the minimum efficiency. What 20 M arshall wants is to be able to have all of that data 21 i n one place to avoid having to go to each of you to 22 g et the information.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 So this is something which is not about basic 2 c ertification but about performance beyond the -- 3 w hether this product is legal to ship in commerce. So 4 I don't know how many manufacturers are in that space. 5 I don't know how many model -- how many units are 6 s hipped. And I certainly don't know if PG&E or anyone 7 e lse is going to put in such a program, but that would 8 b e the potential value of having that as a continuous 9 v ariable rather than a classification variable of above 10 o r below 140 gallons. 11 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt. That's a 12 g ood way to put it. I've been thinking about what was 13 s aid about the 5,000-gallon tank. Is there a break 14 p oint where things are customized, almost one-offs 15 s torage tanks, versus those that are on an assembly 16 l ine and produced in some sort of volume, so that the 17 c ost savings is there and they are -- so I don't know 18 t he business of the storage tank production, but, 19 a gain, is there a per limit or a cutoff when we go over 20 t o one-offs? 21 MR. MYERS: Probably the best information -- 22 t his is Frank Myers, PVI. The best information I could

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 p rovide on that is within the AHRI water heater and hot 2 w ater supply boiler program, there is a different set 3 o f requirements for products that are larger than 130 4 g allons, which doesn't directly speak to this. 5 But in terms of differentiation getting into 6 t he more custom world, there are different requirements 7 t hat are more accepting of custom-type equipment when 8 y ou get over 130 gallons and over 199 -- above 199,000 9 b tu's. So that is -- I can't say that is a 10 m arketplace, but in terms of something that has any 11 f orm of wider acceptance, that is the current AHRI 12 c ertification program. 13 MR. HUNT: Isn't there a cutoff at 199 14 g allons in terms of ASME or safety regulations? 15 MR. MYERS: There is a change in ASME 16 r equirements at 199,000 btus. Anything larger than 17 t hat and larger than 120 gallons or larger. So, again, 18 w hen we are getting up to the 140 gallons, you are 19 c learly into the more specialty, the more one-off. The 20 r equirements for standby loss went all the way up to 21 1 40, which is moving into the more custom and more 22 c ommercial type equipment.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 2 MR. EISNER: Other comments or questions? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Marshall, I have a 4 q uestion for you. Is it acceptable for water heaters 5 o r hot water supply boilers that are greater than 140 6 g allons, given what you heard today, to only declare 7 t hat -- to not submit their actual rated storage 8 v olume? 9 MR. HUNT: The last phrase got garbled. 10 P lease repeat. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. Is it acceptable for 12 w ater heaters or hot water supply boilers that are 13 g reater than 40 gallons -- 140 gallons not to submit 14 r ated storage volume? But anything below -- like 15 a nything not subject to this exclusion would be 16 s ubmitting either measured or rated data. 17 MR. HUNT: Certainly, it is acceptable, but 18 i t means that I can't run a program. Much like Harvey 19 m ade a good presentation of, I can't run a high 20 e fficiency program and include that very, very 21 f undamental characteristics, as you have made the 22 p oint, of storage volume. And also, I could be -- not

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 b e able to do something about system sizing like for a 2 r estaurant of certain capacity in terms of people and 3 w hatnot. 4 So it would limit my abilities to produce 5 s ome of the energy efficiency programs that might 6 r eally benefit those manufacturers who decide to step 7 u p and do a large volume unit with very high 8 e fficiencies, what with a condensing system or some 9 k ind of cascading. I don't know what is possible out 10 t here. I just know that manufacturers are very 11 i nventive, and we'd like to save gas, save carbon 12 o utput in the environment by running programs, and 13 w e're directed to do that by our Public Utilities 14 C ommission. 15 So it would limit us, and I don't think 16 t hat's going to benefit more innovative and advanced 17 m anufacturers. 18 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. And I 19 w ould suggest that -- I mean, I understand Marshall's 20 c oncern, but I would suggest in this case it's a 21 t heoretical discussion because, again, for this class - 22

- this category of water heaters -- and, again, this is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 w ater heaters where the storage capacity is part of the 2 p roduct. It's not a separate tank. It is part of the 3 p roduct. 4 And the requirements are only that it has to 5 h ave a certain level of insulation, no standing pilot, 6 a nd a flue damper. And so I would ask you, how do you 7 w rite a program to promote a better product than that? 8 T he only thing you could do is say, okay, and it has to 9 h ave a higher thermal efficiency or something. 10 Well, that's irrelevant to the volume anyhow. 11 I mean, in this particular case, knowing the rated 12 v olume of that product is not going to be able to help 13 y ou write an incentive program for these particular 14 p ieces of product, because it is all prescriptive 15 r equirements. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. DOE gives 17 d eclaration rated storage volume greater than 140. The 18 r est stays the same. Vote away. 19 MR. KLEISS: I believe we are still 20 d iscussing. I will -- I appreciate that concession. 21 A nd even though we don't make tanks that -- or storage 22 w ater heaters that fall into that consideration. I'm

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 s orry. Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 2 My objections to the -- or recommendation to 3 u se yes/no for the three different areas of rated 4 s torage volume for units with 10 gallons or less 5 c ommercial unfired hot water storage tanks, and the 6 w ater heaters with 140 gallons or more and the other 7 c onditions, is based more on the principle of DOE 8 r equiring reporting information that is not necessary 9 f or determining the efficiency or meeting the minimum 10 e fficiency levels. 11 It is a matter more of principle than of 12 t rying to withhold certain information or being afraid 13 o f reporting it. Lochinvar does report volumes of our 14 u nits through AHRI, and AHRI does provide a website 15 w here there is data that could be selected, sorted 16 t hrough, to identify information. 17 I did not understand that the purpose of this 18 g roup, the purpose of this information, was to create 19 t hat kind of a database. But, rather, my understanding 20 i s that this was to determine appropriate reporting for 21 t he DOE to verify the compliance with the efficiency 22 r egulations.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. We had a 2 l ot of -- a fair amount of discussion about test 3 p rocedure versus capacity. And eventually the gears 4 g round, and I thought about other product classes. We 5 w ill classify residential air conditioners, central air 6 c onditioners, in a capacity group, as a three ton or a 7 t wo ton or a two and a half ton. 8 Is there actually any kind of a test 9 p rocedure or tolerance span that has been adopted by 10 a nybody for -- whether your 34,000 btu unit is a three 11 t on or a two and a half ton? It's pretty loose, I 12 t hink. 13 I'm just asking -- I'm just trying to draw 14 t he - - Harvey Sachs again -- draw the analogy that in 15 o ther parts of the regulatory framework the question of 16 t olerance spans and tests for capacity as a descriptor 17 o f the product if -- not in my experience, but a big 18 i ssue. And other than the question whether it's over 19 1 40 -- over or under 140 gallons, or that is a void 20 s pace in the product availability anyhow, I am not sure 21 w hy this has been so important. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'm going to suggest to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 v ote. Let's -- yes or no, and move on. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: No defaults to where we are 4 t oday, so -- it's already in the reg, so, mean -- 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Those who object, want to 6 s tate that you object? 7 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Object. 8 MR. EISNER: Does anyone else object? 9 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 10 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E, objects. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anybody abstain? We have 12 t hree objections, so it does not pass. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I figure that the 14 r efrigeration guys have to get their turn here. It has 15 b een a few hours for you. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Neil, 17 c ould I propose that we come back and revisit this one 18 a fter lunch? 19 MR. EISNER: The CRE one, or the one we just 20 f inished? 21 MR. STEPHENS: The one we just finished to 22 s ee if there is some middle ground we could find

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 s omewhere, because I would hate for this to go through. 2 W e discussed previously how important it is to present 3 t he ASRAC Committee with a unanimous consensus and have 4 e verything positive. So to have one thing negative is 5 v ery concerning to me. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay. If we can work this out 7 o ver lunch, I think people will generally be happy. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Cheerios, anyone? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I can tell you with 10 1 00 percent certainty, if you go back and read some of 11 t he comments we've gotten for a uniform descriptor, 12 t hink twice about what you're voting on. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we can -- everything 14 i s open to coming back to if it improves the document. 15 All right. CRE. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to agree on 17 t hese next ones really quickly. These are the same 18 o nes we discussed last week on the phone and we agreed 19 t o. Can we just vote? 20 I promise I didn't change anything. Same 21 t hing for HVAC, so get -- you guys get ready because 22 t hat's next.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 MR. SHEBIK: Hey, Ashley, this is Ron Shebik, 2 H ussmann. I do have questions on the second slide. 3 J ust for clarification, under the remote condensing 4 u nit section, the second-to-the-last bullet, you have 5 " The equipment family designation as described in the 6 s ection." 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Is that the same as equipment 9 c lassification? Is that your VCTRC? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 11 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. If that's the case, then 12 i n the next bullet it says, "Condensing unit 13 c onfiguration." Now, are you looking for parallel and 14 c onventional, or are you looking for self-contained or 15 r emote? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Self-contained or remote. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Why would you add that? It's 18 a lready in the equipment classification. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. 20 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can consolidate. 22 MR. SHEBIK: The last -- okay. The last

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 q uestion I have on this is: where in the certification 2 r eport does it deal with one-of-a-kind models that are 3 b uilt for a customer-specific request? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is your question? 5 S orry. 6 MR. SHEBIK: One-of-a-kind models, one-of-a7 k ind cases, they would build specifically for one 8 c ustomer. Where does that show up in the report? 9 B ecause it is not going to be in our product offering, 10 b ut it would be in our certification report. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on if that one-off 12 m odel is part of -- if you can incorporate it as part 13 o f your existing basic models that you have already 14 c ertified, or if it needs to be completely separate. 15 S o it's not going to be -- I mean, I'm not going to 16 h ave a separate line item for one-offs; right? 17 It is that if you decide that one-off is a 18 s eparate basic model and want to certify it that way, 19 y ou need to certify all of this information. If you 20 d ecide that it's subsumed by another basic model, then 21 y ou are okay. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I guess maybe to clarify

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 m y question, when we certify, if we have a model that 2 w e built for a unique -- sorry, a unique model that we 3 b uild for our customer, but it's not going to show up 4 i n our product offering, if you look at a Hussmann case 5 l isting, you are not going to see a listing because we 6 b uild for a specific customer. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Does that pose any problem at 9 a ll? Because you are not going to be ordering that case 10 f or testing. You wouldn't -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can order that case for -- 12 I could call you and ask you for one, like a DOE-built 13 o ne, right? Not that I necessarily would. I'm just -- 14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's on you, right, 16 t o certify it? 17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we find out about it. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I think that answered it. 20 T hank you. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MS. DANE: Mary Dane from Traulsen. If we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 c ross out the condensing unit configuration, wouldn't 2 y ou also have to either cross out or add in "If 3 a pplicable under PDF to require charging instructions 4 f or remote cases"? In case we don't supply that 5 c ondensing unit? Thank you. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you still need that. 7 I 'm not following. 8 MS. DANE: In a remote, we don't supply -- we 9 m ay not supply the condensing unit. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then, how are you making 11 c ertification representations of what that -- 12 MS. DANE: I'll have to go back and check, 13 b ut, like I said, if you're taking it out of one, 14 w ouldn't you add "if applicable" at the other? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We just took it out of that 16 o ne because it technically -- in our regs, the 17 e quipment family designation, the way we have it 18 d efined in our equipment classes, it does subsume 19 w hether it's remote. It already makes that declaration, 20 s o it's redundant. 21 MS. DANE: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't think you need "if

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 a pplicable." I mean, you need charging instructions, 2 p eriod. 3 MS. DANE: Okay. 4 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Concerns? 5 Ready to vote on CRE? Any objections as 6 c hanged? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Hold on just a second, Neil. 8 W e're looking at the regs. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Change "equipment family 10 d esignation" to "equipment class designation." But we 11 a lready have that anyway, because that's at the front 12 o f the -- but that's fine. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. As changed, any 14 o bjections to the CRE slides? Any abstentions? 15 MR. HON: Quick question. Because the remote 16 c ases are not testable as they -- as you would order a 17 r emote case, how are you going to procure the other 18 h alf of the system? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: With the hole aside issue. 20 MR. HON: Okay. Just asking. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. 22 MR. HON: Because we may -- if you had asked,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 m aybe we could help you on that. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no doubt that we will 3 n eed some assistance. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else? This one 5 i s passed unanimously? Okay. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is the same ones we 7 d iscussed for air-cooled equipment last week, and the 8 s econd page is what the PDF will require. The only 9 d ifference, you will see there is no optional IEER that 10 w as removed from the discussion. 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. I just want to 12 c onfirm that the PDF is not public information. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 14 MR. THARP: Thank you. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's true. It's not 16 c onsidered -- it's not public. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Although making the distinction 18 b etween it is not public and that we will not be 19 p roactively publishing it. If we get a FOIA, then we 20 s end it back to you and get submitter's views and go 21 t hrough the whole process. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other questions? Other

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 c oncerns? 2 Ready to vote? Any objections? Any 3 a bstentions? Okay. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 5 I 'm okay with this. Just a comment that, you know, 6 t his is adding some more reporting requirements for 7 m anufacturers. And I think it would be good if DOE and 8 E PA could get together and have common input for DOE 9 r equirements and Energy Star, so we don't have to do 10 s eparate submissions. I know that's not something that 11 i s going to happen right away, but I think it's 12 s omething that we should be working toward. Right? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agree. We actively are 14 t rying to do that. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. 16 MR. EISNER: Do you want EPA's address? 17 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. Did we 18 d iscuss last time that this kind of information would 19 b e on the -- I guess on an as-needed basis or if we 20 w ill have to provide this for every model that we 21 c ertify to DOE? And that -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Basic model.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 MR. AMRANE: -- every basic model. And every 2 t ime it -- okay. I thought we talked about -- I recall 3 t hat we discussed the burden that manufacturers will 4 h ave to maintain those PDF files. So there was no 5 r esolution to that? I don't know. Do we want to talk 6 a bout this? 7 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, it is a burden, but I 8 g uess my thought is I would rather do it up front than 9 h ave to scramble and pull it together when we are in 10 t he middle of many other things that we are working on. 11 S o at least we can plan for this and do it up front. 12 I f we have to submit this information, I would rather 13 n ot have to make it a fire drill. 14 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I do 15 r emember that conversation, and I do think that it was 16 h anging out there, because there was also some 17 d iscussion not only that it was burdensome, but it 18 w ould have to be a rev-level requirement each time that 19 i t came up. 20 And I'm not comfortable that all of that was 21 s olved, but we really weren't offered any opportunity 22 o r any other alternative other than perhaps the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 e xtension date of having to comply with it, because we 2 w ill have to go back and create all of these records, 3 e ven in CRE and some of the other fields. And I'm not 4

- - I haven't quite figured out how smaller companies 5 a re going to do that, and I'm sure it is going to be 6 b urdensome even for the larger ones. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 8 m ean, it's all in the timing, you know. If it's going 9 t o take us a lot -- I agree with Bob; we need to do it 10 u pfront. It is required for essentially getting the 11 c orrect test. It is not created today, so starting from 12 s quare one on millions of models is going to take a 13 l ong time. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else? Anybody 15 w ant to react to that? Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just have a question for 17 J ill. I mean, and maybe we should kick this to later 18 w hen we talk about timing. But, I mean, when you 19 r eference millions of models, I mean, I thought part of 20 t he process of going through all of this stuff with -- 21 w hat is the base model? What is in and what's out? 22 W hat's not tested?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 All of the different types of things we may - 2

- we are going to issue and we have agreed to issue was 3 t o get that number down from millions to what you do 4 t oday. And if I look in the AHRI directory, there is 5 n owhere close to millions. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. But we've got to make 7 s ure that they are all included, that those millions of 8 m odels are included in those base models, so all of -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah. I'm not -- I 10 d on't disagree that it's a huge undertaking and it's a 11 l ot for you guys to do and appreciate the efforts. But 12 a t the same time, you know, I think the magnitude is a 13 l ittle different. The base model isn't millions. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. We are not in the 15 m illions or trillions that we thought we were going to 16 b e before. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're going to change your 18 c omment? 19 MR. WHITWELL: But it is more base models 20 t han what we currently have with AHRI. It will be more 21 b ase models than what we have today. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, I mean, even if I look

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 a t the AHRI, we're talking hundreds, if I look at the 2 o nes today. So hopefully that -- hopefully it doesn't 3 i ncrease magnitudes. I mean, that was the goal here, 4 r ight? 5 MR. WHITWELL: It won't be seven digits, so - 6

- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I really hope your co-worker 8 i s on the phone for that. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I will say that I -- it is at 10 l east a thousand, but -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. PTACS? Any questions? 13 A ny concerns? 14 Ready to vote? Any objections? 15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. Do we have 16 t o say that this is a standard or non-standard? Or the 17 s leeve size will take care of this, right? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to declare product 19 c lass anyway. It is part of -- so that is going to 20 t ake care of that, too. Yep. 21 MR. EISNER: So no objections? Any 22 a bstentions?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 MR. BALLO: Are we deleting wall sleeve 2 d imensions? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. We have unanimous 5 c onsensus on this one. 6 SPVUs? Any questions? Any concerns? 7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane, AHRI. I 8 t hink the COP is at 47 degrees, so I think -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whatever the -- 10 MR. AMRANE: Whatever. Yeah, I mean, just to 11 b e clear. Right, okay. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Ready to vote? 13 MR. AMRANE: The test procedure can rate the 14 p roduct at 17 as well, so that's why. But the 15 r egulations are made on 47 degrees, so that's why maybe 16 j ust adding at 47 would be helpful. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. I would be 18 a lot happier if it didn't sort of rub salt in my 19 w ounds with the 47. I'd like to leave it open for that 20 p ossibly to be the 17 rating at some point. 21 MR. AMRANE: Again, today the requirement is 22 a t 47. This is Karim with AHRI. It's not 17. So if

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 D OE tomorrow wants to rate it to -- the COP at 17, 2 t hat's fine; DOE would be able to add that. For now, 3 t his is what it is. 4 MR. SACHS: It's a bitter pill, Karim. It's 5 a bitter pill. 6 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. As 7 m entioned last time, I am very concerned about the 8 c hangeover point and the dropping of the COP to one at 9 a very high temperature. 10 MR. EISNER: Any reaction to that? 11 Any other concerns? Ready to vote? Anybody 12 o bject? Anybody abstain? Okay. Then we've got a 13 u nanimous vote on that. 14 DOE wants to discuss the next slide a little 15 m ore before we get into a discussion here. So you are 16 a ll free to go to lunch. Have a nice, easy, relaxing 17 l unch. We have a couple more slides and then we'll get 18 t o verification. 19 MALE SPEAKER: What time are we reconvening? 20 MR. EISNER: 2:00. 21 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 22 MR. EISNER: Everybody take their seats.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 All right. Are we ready to start with VRF? 2 MS. BARHYDT: So, Paul, I think you helped 3 c ome up with these. Do you want to walk us through the 4 s uggestions? 5 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. So 6 b asically we have -- for VRF we have the two 7 c ategories, very similar to ULE. In fact, the bullet 8 p oints under each of these two are I think exactly as 9 t he commercial unitary large equipment. 10 So any questions on these? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not being shown on the 12 w ebinar. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that better? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, thank you. 15 MR. THARP: Can you speak up, Jill? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: No. And you love it. 17 MR. DOPPEL: That was Rusty Tharp. That was 18 n ot Paul Doppel. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I know who it is. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Hey, Jill, they're piling on. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I know they are. Kind of like 22 l ions in the den.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. So are there any 2 q uestions on this page? 3 Okay. Next page, then on the PDF, these are 4 t he items that would be required. What is sort of 5 d ifferent from what the unitary large equipment had was 6 t hat we would identify indoor and outdoor units that 7 a re defined in the test accommodation, and then any 8 c omponents that would be needed for heat recovery, if 9 i t's a heat recovery system. 10 And then, since these systems are primarily 11 h eat pumps, the rated heating capacity would be listed. 12 W e changed the airflow for each indoor unit, and 13 i nstead of frequency set point it is compressor, 14 b ecause it could be one or more than one. 15 And then we took out charging instructions 16 a nd we took out motor -- base motor classification, or 17 w hatever that was, and then we added this statement at 18 t he bottom of the system set up for testing, including 19 c harging instructions that are consistent with the 20 i nstallation manual. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions? Any 22 c omments?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 2 C ould you go back one slide, please? Out of concern 3 f or peak power, okay, you've got the EER in there? I 4 s ee that. How about less than 65,000 would be the EER? 5 MR. DOPPEL: For less than 65,000, it's just 6 t he SEER. 7 MR. HUNT: I know. We need the EER. Peak 8 p ower is very important to us, and this is one way we 9 c an get at it. SEER is not adequate for -- 10 MR. DOPPEL: EER is available on the AHRI 11 w ebsite. 12 MR. HUNT: I'd like it to be on this site. 13 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, but it's not on the -- if 14 y ou go back to the unitary equipment less than 65,000, 15 i t's not there either, because it's not a requirement. 16 MR. WHITWELL: The SEER is not a DOE metric. 17 I mean, the EER on these. 18 MR. HUNT: I have to ask. I won't object, 19 b ut I just want to keep it in front of people's minds. 20 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I 21 a ssume that it does become -- because that's one of the 22 r ulemakings they're looking at has EER and SEER. So

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 t hat could change, and if that does, does that mean 2 t hat this would reflect that change or not? Because 3 t hey're talking about which metric -- there is a 4 d iscussion of switching between those metrics for 5 r ating of equipment. There was a rulemaking about it. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. So I think there is 7 a couple of things. One is we did finish a rulemaking 8 f or residential, which in a certain picked up EER. And 9 w e have it with -- that's out of the scope of these 10 n egotiations. That is purely residential. 11 MR. DOPPEL: That's only EER for air 12 c onditioners. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then we are -- we have 16 a nother rulemaking open for unitary equipment, but not 17 t hree-phase less than 65. So 65 and above, I believe, 18 t o contemplate EER to an IEER switch. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 20 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Questions? 21 Everybody ready to vote? Any objections? 22 A ny abstentions? Okay. We have unanimous agreement

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 h ere. 2 That brings us up to Computer Room Air 3 C onditioners. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 5 T his is just a reflection of our regulations. 6 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. Why are 7 y ou requesting the economizer presence? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because there is a difference 9 i n standards between whether it is or not. 10 MR. AMRANE: There is? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's in here. We have 12 p roduct class distinctions based on that, so that's 13 w hy. 14 MR. AMRANE: Again, Karim Amrane, AHRI. As 15 f ar as the condenser medium air-cooled, water-cooled, 16 t hose are product classes, right? So do you need that? 17 I t's -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can do it either way, so - 19

- 20 MR. AMRANE: So I guess some additional 21 s uggestions from the manufacturers, in addition to the 22 n et sensible cooling, they are suggesting that we add

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 t he net cooling capacity. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. AMRANE: And the airflow rate in SCFM. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And do they want to put that 5 i n the PDF, I assume? They probably don't want to put 6 t hat as part of the public -- 7 MR. AMRANE: Again, that's, you know, for 8 t hem to -- I guess at this point in time, I don't think 9 t hat there are -- they want this to be information 10 a vailable. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: They do want it to be. 12 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 14 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 16 MR. AMRANE: But on SCFM. SCFM. 17 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I 18 w as just looking at 127. It seems like they also split 19 o ut something to do with the chilled water, whether the 20 a ir handler's chilled water or not. So it seems like 21 t hat would need to be in there as well. It looks like 22 y ou've got the condenser medium, but then the part

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 a bout whether the evaporator side -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that the -- 3 MR. STARR: Well, it's an ASRAC product, so I 4 d on't know how that translates into your CRF. But the 5 A SRAC product is based upon Standard 127, so I'm 6 a ssuming the information -- it seems like you need that 7 i nformation presented in order to get the ratings and - 8

- this is the 2007. 9 MR. AMRANE: You have to look at the ASRAC 10 t able where the efficiencies are. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what he's looking at. 12 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's like an extra 14 c ategory. I don't know where it is. 15 MR. AMRANE: So I don't know. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know either. 17 MR. STARR: Well, there are some other 18 t hings, too, I think with the outside air temperatures, 19 t oo. But I don't know. With the -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I assume that the temperature 21 i s -- 22 MR. AMRANE: Right. No. The new 127 has

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 o ther air temperatures, and that is maybe for DOE later 2 o n to look at that. But right now it's only the 75- 3 d egree return. 4 MR. STARR: Yeah. And I think the ASHRAE one 5 i s actually the older one, the 2007. Even though it 6 c ame out -- the new one came out in 2012, I don't think 7 t he ASHRAE 90.1 was -- 8 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 9 MR. STARR: -- they didn't overlap to catch 10 u p the new efficiencies. 11 MR. AMRANE: You're right. This is something 12 t hat we do. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other questions or 14 c omments? 15 Ready to vote? Are there any objections? 16 A ny abstentions? Okay. It's unanimous. 17 That brings us up to -- now, there was some 18 d iscussion earlier about some talks about lunch. 19 A nything come out of that that we want to talk about? 20 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. We need to 21 d o Water Source Product also, certification 22 i nformation. And I'd like Jill to chime in on that one,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 p lease. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Stop, Rusty, stop. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So the first 4 t hing is we don't have separate slides for water-cooled 5 a nd evaporatively cooled. Is there anything that would 6 m ake them different from air-cooled? Any of the -- 7 l ike can you provide -- right now our regs are the 8 s ame, regardless of whether it's air-cooled, water9 c ooled, or evaporatively cooled. So if I change this 10 h eading to encompass water-cooled and evaporatively 11 c ooled, will that take care of it? 12 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. I 13 b elieve that water source needs a flow rate specified. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'll do water source 15 s eparate, but water-cooled and evap-cooled, are we 16 o kay? So you'll be providing this. 17 MR. EISNER: So no disagreement with making 18 t hat change? No objections? No abstentions? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, let's see. 20 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Just a 21 q uestion for clarification. For all of the different 22 p rograms, sometimes we reference optional submission

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 f or a PDF, and sometimes we reference PDF to require. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. It was done 3 p urposely. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. That's the 5 c larification I was looking for. Thank you. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think those are all true. 7 Any issues yet? Are we okay with this one? 8 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. 9 A shley, do you want to put water source in with evap10 c ooled and water-cooled, since it's a different test 11 p rocedure? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have to. I can do it 13 s eparate. I'm going to list them out separately in the 14 r egs. But for the purposes of discussion, is it easier 15 f or me to do them separate? 16 MR. FLY: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Separate. 18 Water source discussion. So do you want me 19 t o put "water flow rate," Rusty, instead of this? 20 MR. THARP: Yes, I think we should. I think 21 t hat is manufacturer-specified value. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anything else that needs to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 b e changed here? 2 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 3 T his is for what kind of equipment? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Water source heat pumps. 5 MR. STARR: Water source. Okay. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Do you need rate of static when 7 y ou are going to actually go back to zero? I mean, 8 d oesn't the standard take it back to zero? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It normalizes it; right? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 11 MR. JOHNSON: This is Tom Johnson. You 12 s hould have GPM, some kind of a flow rate, GPM, some 13 k ind of standard CFM that you've got that. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I don't. 15 MR. JOHNSON: No, you don't. Yeah. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rated airflow? Okay. 17 MR. JOHNSON: And then a static pressure for 18 i f you use an ECM motor. And my guy just said, "Got 19 i t." 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. Tom, 22 p lease remind me. I thought the fan was sort of netted

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 o ut in the rating method for water source. So the ESP 2 i s -- Karim, this is one of your tests. One, two, 3 t hree -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is normalized, Harvey, but 5 y ou still have to test first. 6 MR. DOPPEL: And the net out is a set value, 7 r egardless of the type of air motor that you are 8 a ctually using; right? 9 MR. BALLO: All right. So tell me, do I want 10 i t or not? I think I want it -- want the ESP. 11 MR. THARP: Yes. We want to know what the 12 r ated static is, yes. 13 MR. BALLO: Thank you. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, look. The vote already 15 d ecided itself. 16 MR. SACHS: I couldn't hear that. Was it 17 d irected at me? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I added yours. Somehow 19 a fter you spoke, Harvey, the vote already decided. I'm 20 j ust joking, sorry. Can we vote on these, though, for 21 w ater source? 22 MALE SPEAKER: Do we have the efficiency

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 p erformance? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. EER, COP, cooling 3 c apacity, and type of heating. It seems to be what our 4 r egs say. 5 MR. JOHNSON: So I think, Ashley, if we use a 6 v ariable speed compressor, it might be a different 7 m odel, but we would need the compressor speed. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that definite that -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Isn't that in your -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: Am I right there, Rusty? Yeah. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. We're looking at 12 f requency set points, whether that's a VFD for airflow 13 o r whether that's frequency for compressors. Stop 14 l aughing, Rusty. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: In his defense, it actually 16 w asn't him this time. 17 MR. THARP: It was Karim. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I'll still blame Rusty. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're good. 20 MR. JOHNSON: I think we're good. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay? Everybody is all right?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 A ny objections? Any abstentions? Okay. We are 2 u nanimous on this one. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And can I extend the air4 c ooled to water-cooled and evaporatively cooled? Or do 5 I need separate slides? 6 MR. WHITWELL: For water-cooled, we need to 7 i nclude the water flow rate. 8 MR. FLY: So I'll say this publicly instead 9 o f just privately back here in the back of the room. I 10 t hink that at some point we may want to look at makeup 11 w ater temperature for evaporative-cooled, but that's a 12 t est standard issue, not really this compliance issue. 13 I t's not in the standard today, so that's something we 14 n eed to address in the test standard. There is no 15 w ater flow rate that is needed for evaporative-cooled 16 b ecause it's going to be -- you know, it's going to 17 s elf-regulate itself by the capacity in the conditions. 18 MR. STARR: It seems like typically on at 19 l east the evaporative-cooled there is an effectiveness 20 i s kind of how you look at when you're selecting units. 21 B ut I don't know how it regulates in, but it's 22 d ifferent than the other equipment.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. I'm talking 2 a bout evaporative condensing, not evaporative-cooled 3 u nits. So evaporative-cooled units, I think we 4 a ctually excluded that component earlier, so we're not 5 c overing that at the moment that I can tell. 6 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead, Marshall. 8 MR. EISNER: Marshall, are you there? 9 MR. HUNT: Yes, thank you. PG&E. I agree 10 w ith Mark that we did exclude the evaporative pre11 c ooler last meeting. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody okay with this 13 a s modified? Any objections? Any abstentions? Okay. 14 Next? 15 MR. DOPPEL: Ashley, Paul Doppel with 16 M itsubishi. So we need to do a VRF water source also. 17 S o if you took this page -- it might be easier to just 18 d o -- take the water source, make it VRF, but take the 19 s econd page from the VRF and add water flow rate to 20 t hat. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Take the second page from VRF 22 a nd add water flow rate. And then --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 MR. DOPPEL: Then on the front page you would 2 h ave to add -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- refer to water source for 4 t hose requirements. Right? 5 MR. DOPPEL: Yep. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that work? 7 MR. DOPPEL: Mimic water source? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Water source slide. Sorry. 9 I can just -- these. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. So for the -- but you go 11 t o the page before that. Okay. So those items should 12 b e added to the VRF front page. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, they're the 14 s ame as the ones on the bottom, right? 15 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that would be covered. 17 B ut okay. 18 MR. DOPPEL: So it would be another category 19 a t the very bottom. Just add -- you would have to add 20 a nother -- just a whole other -- if you just copy that 21 f rom the water source and make -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I get it. It's the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 e xact same wording, though, right? 2 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. And just drop it all the 3 w ay at the bottom of the VRF and say "water source 4 V RF." 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MR. DOPPEL: That's good. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to do a 8 s eparate slide for water source VRFs? 9 MR. DOPPEL: No. You've got it now. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay? 11 MR. DOPPEL: It's good now. Thanks. 12 MR. EISNER: All right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are we good here? 14 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay? Any objections 15 o r abstentions to the modifications on water source? 16 O kay. 17 MR. AMRANE: Was the water-cooled -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: The water-cooled and 19 e vaporative cooled would be identical to the air-cooled 20 e xcept for the water flow rate. 21 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. The water22 c ooled product is in 65. I believe it's an EER

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 r equirement, not a SEER. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you're right. Is that 3 g ood? 4 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. Even the 5 C OP, I'm not sure it applies to them. We need to look 6 a t that. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, that's why it 8 s ays, "As necessary to meet the standards." 9 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's not going to be 11 r equired unless you have a standard there. 12 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll just have to go -- I 14 m ean, when we go through and articulate each one. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else? Are we 16 s et? Is there any need to go back to commercial water 17 h eaters? 18 Everybody got quiet all of a sudden. Okay. 19 V erification of -- 20 MR. HUNT: Hello. This is Marshall Hunt, 21 P G&E. 22 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Marshall.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Okay. I am 2 c onsidering removing my objection, but actually I 3 o bjected for a different reason, but I still want to 4 h ear from the other two folks, because I don't want it 5 n ecessarily to go forward if they really have major 6 c oncerns. I could also be expressing my concern at the 7 s ame time. But could we hear from the other two 8 o bjections? 9 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 10 I f I could suggest, where we've got the rated storage 11 v olume greater than 140 gallons, yes/no, if we could 12 c opy that text and put it in DOE -- for the 13 i nstantaneous water heaters and change the volume to 14 1 0. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's not going to work 16 f or DOE. We want the number. 17 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Well, we can vote on it. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we can just leave it, 19 a nd you can vote on that. 20 MR. KLEISS: We already did. So if you 21 w ould, please, put that language up there with the 10 22 g allons. And then if we could -- and you could just

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 l ine through the rated storage volume there. And we 2 c an discuss that, and I would suggest that we can vote 3 o n that because all of -- that would eliminate the 4 i nformation that is not required for efficiency rating 5 o r verification of those products. 6 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. Rheem can support the 7 p roposal as it is on the slide now. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So the top one is not 9 g oing to work because I can already tell you, with the 10 u niform descriptor coming down the pipeway, that's 11 g oing to be obsolete. And so there is no point in 12 a dopting something that is going to be obsolete in six 13 m onths. So that's not something the Department can 14 s upport. 15 MS. MEYERS: Well, Ashley, it's kind of hard 16 f or us because we haven't even seen the proposed rule, 17 a nd then we don't know that the proposed rule is going 18 t o actually be the final rule. So that's our issue 19 h ere. 20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. But, 21 A shley, you can always revise it later on when this 22 r ule is out.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The rule is not even going to 2 b e finished in time. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'd 4 l ike to point out, with the text there and the 5 g roundwork rules we laid, we can still pass something 6 w ith two objections. And with the DOE having two 7 v otes, then -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We only have one vote. 9 MR. STEPHENS: You've got one vote? Okay. 10 MR. MYERS: Ashley, let's talk about the 11 i nstantaneous with less than 10 gallons. So even -- 12 a ll right. So the uniform descriptor is going to 13 c hange the break point, then. Okay? But there will 14 s till be commercial water heaters that fit in this box. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Frank, there is no reason, 16 f or something that is less than 10 gallons, that you 17 c an't state what the rated storage volume is. 18 MR. MYERS: Well, actually, there is a 19 r eason, because you don't need it for anything. All 20 y ou need -- the reason, again, this goes back to ASHRAE 21 9 0.1, and the reason that the 10 gallons came into 22 b eing was that it was essentially determined that at

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 s ome point in the design of an instantaneous water 2 h eater, at some point the amount of water that is 3 w ithin the tubes, because we were typically thinking of 4 t ube-type products, and the energy that is contained in 5 t hose tubes, becomes significant. And so it was 6 s omewhat arbitrarily said, "Well, if this holds more 7 t han 10 gallons, we want to measure a standby loss." 8 And so if it's less than 10 gallons, it 9 d oesn't matter if those tubes only hold one gallon, 1.5 10 g allons, 3.5 gallons. It is irrelevant. And in fact, 11 f or those products, technically there is not a rated 12 s torage volume. There is an amount of water that is 13 c ontained within the water heater, but whether it's 14 o ne, six, or eight, as far as the efficiency 15 r equirement for this product, it doesn't matter. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you can make the same 17 a rgument, right? The product classes are delineated by 18 s torage volume, whether it be rated, whether it be 19 a bove or below. The same thing happens -- we just went 20 t hrough unitary, and they are delineated by cooling 21 c apacity, 65 to 135. It's a bucket, too, but yet 22 t hey're willing to tell us the attributes of those

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 p roducts. I don't understand why it's such an issue, 2 a nd this is the anomaly in this product. 3 MR. MYERS: So, again, water heaters -- 4 a ppreciate that the commercial water heater market, the 5 w ay -- it is actually, by the way, also defined in the 6 l aw, okay? I could have a 40-gallon -- I could have a 7 c ommercial water heater that holds 40 gallons that 8 f ires at 200,000 btu's per hour. That, by definition, 9 i s an instantaneous commercial water heater. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 11 MR. MYERS: Okay. And so what this was 12 t rying to capture, what this was trying to capture, was 13 i n fact those -- that subgroup of instantaneous water 14 h eaters that are tube-type products. That it's 15 b asically a coil tube where the water runs through the 16 t ube and the heat plays over the tubes. Okay? 17 I will tell you that those manufacturers -- 18 i t has not been their practice, not their history, to 19 m easure the volume, the amount of water that's in those 20 t ubes. The only thing that they look at, because this 21 h as been around a long time -- the only thing they look 22 a t is, did I happen to build one that is big enough

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 t hat the tubes contain 10 gallons? In which case they 2 n ow have additional requirements. 3 But that is -- you know, they basically say, 4 " Am I 10 or less, or am I 10 or" -- you know, how do I 5 r elate to 10? They don't -- I am not aware that they 6 g o around advertising that, oh, this particular 7 c ommercial instantaneous tube-type water heater holds 8 1 .5 and this one holds three, or whatever. They 9 h aven't been doing it; that's the point. They haven't 10 b een doing it in terms of a rated volume. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 12 w ould like to point out there again that we found a 13 s olution that the manufacturers are comfortable with 14 t hat will still pass. And we recognize the fact that 15 i t is going to go to the Federal Government, right? 16 B ut I'm sure you're going to have a majority say in 17 t hat with the ASHRAE. We understand that. 18 But this way we can show that the 19 m anufacturers are in consensus and in agreement with 20 w hat we expect and what we would prefer for this 21 s ituation, because what you are asking for is more than 22 w hat we are required to do by law right now. And we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 h aven't seen -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are required by law to 3 s ubmit rated storage volume right now. So if I don't 4 c hange anything, that is what you submit come December 5 3 1st. 6 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. And I hear Frank's 7 p oint about the less than 10 gallon instantaneous 8 m odels. I'm wondering, though, for hot water storage 9 t anks that the rated storage volume does seem like 10 s omething that is information that has some value to 11 p eople looking at those products. I guess I have a 12 b igger problem with that than I do with the less than 13 1 0 gallons. 14 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff, Lochinvar. 15 A shley, you said that as of December 31st we would be 16 r equired to report volumes. Is that based on what is 17 w ritten in the Federal Register? Or is that based on 18 w hat is in the templates that have been submitted? 19 Y ou're looking up chapter and verse, Laura? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 21 MR. KLEISS: Thank you. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Would you like me to read it to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 y ou? 2 MR. KLEISS: Please. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Storage volume in gallons. 4 I t doesn't say rated or measured. You guys wanted it 5 t o be rated. So it wasn't confusion that it was 6 m easured. Storage volume in gallons. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Unfired? Unfired, it says 8 m easured. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: This one. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that one. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So we are fixing the 12 m easured one, which you didn't want it -- want, and 13 w e're changing -- and the other one says "storage 14 v olume," which you guys wanted "rated." So, yes, it's 15 a lready in there. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Are you 17 r eading from the --- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: 429. 19 MR. MYERS: -- the rule that was made back a 20 l ittle over two years ago and then was extended and the 21 d eadline was extended? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 MR. MYERS: And that is a part of this 2 n egotiation because of the problems that we had with 3 i t? Is it that rule that you are reading? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. 5 MR. MYERS: Okay. So we are here trying to 6 f ix all of those things, because those things -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: As are we. 8 MR. MYERS: -- are problematic. Yeah. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We gave, right, on the 140 10 g allons. But the other one is important to us. 11 MR. MYERS: To have the "rated storage volume 12 i n an instantaneous product less than 10 gallons" is 13 i mportant to you. Is that what you're saying? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what I said. 15 MR. MYERS: Because nothing in the 16 r egulations require anything other than the cutoff 17 p oint. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have discussed, right? I 19 m ean, at this point, we can -- it's -- 20 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is Harvey. Maybe I 21 c an try a different approach. Can you remind me of the 22 d efinition of a commercial tankless or instantaneous

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 w ater heater? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Yeah. Give me a 3 s econd, Harvey. 4 MR. SACHS: And what I'm really interested in 5

- - this is Harvey -- is the contrast, if any, between 6 t his and the definition for the residential tankless. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the instantaneous ones are 8 i n terms -- well, in the CFR they're in terms of input 9 r atings. 10 MR. SACHS: So what is the minimum input 11 r ating for commercial tankless? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Water heater that has an 13 i nput rating not less than 4,000 btus per hour -- per 14 g allon. 15 MR. SACHS: Per gallon. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 17 MR. SACHS: I guess where I'm coming from is 18 s eeing a need for products that fill the hole now that 19 w e have in the sort of two to 10 gallon -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 21 MR. SACHS: -- buffer range, that that is 22 w hat is going to kill our cold water sandwiches, with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 a ll due respect to manufacturers to the other type of 2 p roduct. And what I'm aiming at -- and I'm not sure 3 w here that leaves me -- is to make sure that we don't 4 w ind up with a regulation that discourages the 5 i ntroduction of sort of next-generation products, 6 w hether fire tube or water tube, that actually do 7 p rovide that buffering function and extend the range of 8 u tility of these as part of efficient solutions. 9 And I'm not sure that -- my instinct is that 10 k nowing the number of gallons of buffer, I won't even 11 c all it storage, is going to be helpful, but I'm not 12 s ure if that's going to get in the way of what my real 13 g oal is. But I'm pretty sure that I'm -- I'm having 14 t rouble accommodating what I'm hearing as this being a 15 t raining point, that we gave on the 140 so we're going 16 t o be rigid on this. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? 19 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Just it 20

- - as written, would this allow DOE to perform what -- 21 t o report and validate products as they are required 22 t o? Or is there a deficiency within this that would

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 k eep you from doing your job? 2 MS. BARHYDT: It does not provide the same 3 l evel of validation that we are accustomed to. It does 4 n ot provide the same level of validation that we have 5 f or other products, no. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: For almost all of our other 7 p roducts. We collect product attributes. We have 8 a greed to a lot of them today. 9 MR. KLEISS: Okay. And there was one other 10 t hing that -- Jeff Kleiss again -- that you surprised 11 m e on. I just didn't catch this. But there are other 12 p roduct types that there are attributes that you are 13 c apturing that are not required for determination of 14 c ompliance with the efficiency regulations? 15 MS. BARHYDT: For example, I think Ashley 16 l isted earlier capacity. Those are buckets, but we are 17 n ot saying, "Are you in this bucket or that bucket?" 18 W e're saying, "What is your capacity?" 19 MR. KLEISS: And that was for -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's a rated value. 21 T hat's for all of our HVAC products. We do the same 22 t hing with clothes washer capacity or -- yeah, there's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 a lot of them. 2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. But 3 t his requirement has been in place since the beginning, 4 s o -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, it's the same, 6 t hough. It's an attribute of a product, but yeah. 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. On the 8 H VAC part, the capacity is needed, at least to some 9 p oint, to determine the static at which you operate. 10 B ut some of the things that we agreed to are also the 11 P DF that's not public, and so I guess the question, 12 t oo, would be -- that I have is, if this were submitted 13 i n a PDF format that is not publicly available, would 14 t hat be acceptable to both parties as -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department is okay with 16 t hat. 17 MS. MEYERS: I mean, the way it's proposed up 18 t here, we are providing whether it has a rated storage 19 v olume greater than 10 gallons or not. So we are 20 p roviding -- we are saying yes or no. So we are 21 p roviding that information. We are not asking that 22 t hat be stricken. We are just asking it to be a yes or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 n o answer. So that does kind of provide that product 2 a ttribute that you referred to. 3 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 4 T he major objection that I have is not on reporting the 5 i nformation, but, rather, just the principle of asking 6 f or information that goes beyond what is required to 7 d etermine -- for you to do your job, to determine the 8 e fficiency or that we comply with the efficiency 9 s tandards. 10 Now, granted that that is already in place in 11 o ther areas in the standard, I would be willing to jump 12 s hip and change my vote on the 10 gallon and reporting 13 o f volume. I would prefer that we keep the commercial 14 u nfired water heater storage tanks striking the storage 15 v olume. 16 MR. MYERS: Excuse me. Jeff, could you speak 17 u p just a bit, please? 18 MR. KLEISS: Sorry. Just saying that I would 19 b e willing to revert to reporting volume on the 20 i nstantaneous water heaters, but would like to keep the 21 u nfired water heater storage tank volume stricken. I 22 d on't know that the group -- I don't know if we should

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 v ote one way or the other. I'm just giving you my 2 p ersonal statements. 3 MR. EISNER: Do you want to take a break for 4 1 0 minutes and talk among yourselves? Would that help? 5 A fter this discussion? 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Just a 7 g eneral comment on those two points. Reporting the 8 i nformation, particularly if it's not public record 9 b ecause you don't want a customer -- a user making a 10 c hoice based on where in the under 10 gallons that is, 11 y ou know, there is not a benefit to more gallons is 12 b etter or benefit to less gallons is better. It is 13 j ust instantaneous. It's not a part of the selection 14 c riteria. 15 So reporting it to DOE I wouldn't have a 16 p roblem with as long as it didn't show up where the 17 p ublic is making a choice based on that. That's just a 18 g eneral -- that's my feeling on it. 19 I do agree with you on the storage volume, 20 t hat that one is not used for any part of the 21 e fficiency parameters and doesn't really have a place 22 f or collection.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. So now I'm a 2 l ittle bit confused because people are willing to 3 r eport the information that has no value for anyone who 4 w ould be looking at this. But the information that 5 w ould have value, if I wanted to buy an unfired hot 6 w ater storage tank, I think I would want to know how 7 b ig it is. But that's the information I can't access. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. To respond 9 t o that, the Department has said they would be more 10 c omfortable in seeing the actual value rather than just 11 u p or down on the 10 gallons. I don't see where that 12 i s significant, but if -- you know, I'm saying that 13 t hat's one where I would not have a particular problem 14 w ith. It's not information that we have today. We 15 w ould have to go out and measure all of these units. 16 M any of them are so far under 10 gallons that we don't 17 b other measuring them. But if the Department feels 18 t hey really have to have that, then it's something that 19 c ould be done. 20 In terms of the energy parameters, if you get 21 a small storage tank or a large storage tank, it has to 22 c omply with the exact same requirements. So in terms

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 o f energy description and selection, it has no value. 2 T hey can go to any customer's catalogue and select by 3 s ize. But in terms of any choice they make being more 4 e fficient and less efficient, it has no value. So I 5 d on't see where that should be in the DOE directory. 6 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 7 D oesn't the storage volume, though, affect how much 8 d rawdown you can have? I mean, it is part of -- would 9 b e part of the design selection criteria. Even as much 10 a s if you had three people in the house or two people 11 i n the house, you need to know the capacity in order to 12 m ake the correct selection. 13 So you would have efficiency, but the other 14 i tem you need is how much water you are going to use, 15 w hich is reflected in how much drawdown you have in 16 t hat tank. So it seems like -- 17 MR. MYERS: I understand from -- this is 18 F rank Myers, PVI. I understand from a system point of 19 v iew you are correct; it has value. But from a 20 s election point of view, it makes no difference because 21 t hey all comply with the exact same requirement. So 22 t here is not a "we should get them to do more of this

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 o ne than that one." There is no benefit. 2 When you are deciding what size tank to buy, 3 y ou go to whatever manufacturer you choose to and you 4 b uy the tank that you need, based on those criteria, if 5 t hat's what you're doing. But you don't buy one that 6 i s more efficient or less efficient. They have the 7 e xact same requirement. 8 MR. STARR: Well, it seems like, I mean, just 9 i n a basic house where you have two people, you can 10 m ake a selection between 50 gallons or 80 gallons when 11 a n 80 gallon is going to have more standby losses. So, 12 i n theory, they would both be efficient in how they use 13 w ater, but one is going to have more standby losses. 14 So I would choose the smaller tank with the 15 s ame efficiency as the bigger tank. 16 MR. MYERS: That is not necessarily the -- 17 y ou are -- I understand where you're going, but per 18 g allon you are going to have less standby loss with the 19 l arger tank. But, again, it depends on what you need. 20 A nd all I'm saying is you go to anyone's catalogue and 21 y ou select by gallons. You don't need that information 22 i n the DOE list to make a better choice. There is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 n othing about adding it into the DOE list that 2 e ncourages you or in any way helps you to make a better 3 c hoice. It's superfluous information there. 4 MR. STARR: The only other thing it does is 5 w hen you're trying to set up incentive programs you 6 k now what your market has in terms of capacities. And 7 s o then you are trying to set up a program and 8 u nderstand what other things are out there, so you are 9 t rying to match up attributes of the market to what you 10 h ave in data that you have collected about your 11 i nformation. 12 So knowing what -- in other words, if you're 13 g oing to rebate for 50-gallon water heater tanks, you 14 h ave to know what tanks are on the market in order to 15 w rite up that this tank would meet that part of the 16 p rogram. So from the stand of trying to set up 17 i ncentive programs, it does matter. 18 MR. MYERS: Okay. I don't see how, but okay. 19 I mean, if every tank in existence that is legal to 20 s ell meets the exact same requirement, I don't see how 21 t he program can -- they are either available or they're 22 n ot available as a tank, but there is no change in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 r equirement. So having that information here does no - 2

- offers no benefit to incentive programs or otherwise. 3 MR. EISNER: Did you have a comment, Karen? 4 All right. Why don't we take a five-minute 5 b reak? 6 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 7 MR. EISNER: All right. Back on water 8 h eaters. Any further discussion? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So our discussion -- I think 10 w e do want some -- so for the first class, rated 11 s torage volume is up there. I think that's something 12 t hat we want. The second one, for unfired water tanks, 13 w e want some indication of volume, whether that be a 14 c alculated volume, an estimated volume, some type of 15 v olume. I don't know what the right words would be, 16 b ut some indication of volume for that one. The rest 17 w e're fine with. 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be your suggestion 20 o f some type of capacity-type thing. 21 MR. MYERS: There was some discussion during 22 t he break that on the second bullet up at the top for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 w ater heaters and hot water supply boilers less than 10 2 g allons that there might be increased acceptance if the 3 w ords were changed to the water volume in gallons, 4 b ecause you don't really think about those as storage, 5 a nd there is no test technique for rated and measured. 6 S o if it was just the water volume in gallons, that 7 w ould resolve quite a bit. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we do that for both of 9 t hem? Is that -- can that be the breakpoint for 10 e veryone to be happy? 11 MR. MYERS: I was about to say -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we do that across the 13 b oard? 14 MR. MYERS: -- the same thing for the -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 16 MR. MYERS: -- second one. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Done. 18 MR. MYERS: I think you'd like to hear me 19 o ut. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, she said okay. 21 MR. MYERS: It's in your best interest if you 22 h eard me out, trying to help you out. Only worrying

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 a nd thinking about you, Ashley. 2 In the second one, there is one additional 3 w ord that might be helpful and that's -- since it is 4 t he storage we are talking about there, to say "the 5 s tored water volume in gallons." And with that, 6 e verything else looks right. 7 MS. MEYERS: So we're giving on one, too. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. 9 MS. MEYERS: That's what that -- 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. For the record, are there 11 a ny objections? 12 MR. HALLEY: Are the cherries still on the 13 t able? 14 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 15 H ello? 16 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Marshall. 17 MR. HUNT: Okay. I'll withdraw my objection. 18 MR. EISNER: Marshall, are you looking for 19 t he cherries? 20 MR. HUNT: Yes, please. The big ones. Yes. 21 B ut I withdraw my objection. I just want to let people 22 k now that there is this problem when we run programs

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 t hat we need information. So let's try to do something 2 b etter. Thank you. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. No objections? No 4 a bstentions? Unanimous vote. 5 Are we ready for Verification? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, one more thing, which is 7 t here's not a slide for Neil, and this is where you 8 r eally get to have some fun -- the date. Now that we 9 h ave actually agreed to what will be submitted, the 10 D epartment is going to agree in good faith that we are 11 g oing to also agree on motors next week. And we are 12 w illing to entertain dates at this time. 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. Just 14 r eal quickly, if we could go back to the VRF slide. 15 I 'd just like to make sure we add in the terminology 16 t hree -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I got it. 18 MR. THARP: All right. You've got it. 19 MR. EISNER: Have you got everybody's vote 20 f or that? 21 MR. THARP: Yes. 22 MR. EISNER: In writing? Okay.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is not a slide for 2 t his, but the date right now is December 31st of this 3 y ear. We'll open the floor to you guys. 4 MALE SPEAKER: December 32nd. 5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 6 T here has been a wide variety of discussion within the 7 i ndustry about why we need two years, why we need 18 8 m onths. Now I'm speaking -- that's discussions that 9 h ave been had. I'll speak purely for PVI, and that is 10 t hat we could -- we would like to have 18 months, but 11 w e could get this done within 12 months. 12 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think we 13 h ave been on record several times asking for 18 months 14 f rom the publication of the final rule on the AEDM. So 15 I 'm not sure when this rule is going to be out, but I 16 t hink that it would be appropriate to give us at least 17 1 8 months from that time. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Do we 19 h ave an update on the AEDM final rule? 20 MALE SPEAKER: Good question. 21 MR. STEPHENS: You haven't gotten that issued 22 y et?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: Ashley's done. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's on the record. So you 3 w ill see a proposal first. Obviously, we have agreed 4 t o a bunch of different things. That's being fast5 t racked. That's all I can say, you know, as soon as 6 p ossible. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 8 t hink it will be difficult to really give a timeframe 9 u ntil we see the final rule for the AEDM. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we negotiated that, 11 r ight? So let's -- I can't say assume everything, but 12 t hat's where we're -- 13 MR. STEPHENS: Could we say 18 months after 14 t he AEDM? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That can be your suggestion 16 t o the Committee. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Well, yeah, not just 18 p ublication but after the AEDMs become effective. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's from the final 20 r ule date. 21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Do we 22 w ant 18 months after the AEDM, or 18 months after we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 h ave published this rule final? Because things could 2 c hange in part of the reporting requirements here 3 t hrough the rulemaking process, I assume. We're not 4 l ocked down. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you guys -- you have to 6 r emember we voted on these with good faith, negotiated 7 e ffort. Give some credit here. 8 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 9 A ssuming that things kind of remain similar to what we 10 h ave agreed upon, and it stays that way, would the 11 m anufacturers be able to work on a different time 12 t able? I mean, if nothing changes from now until the 13 f inal -- if everything we agreed on stays the same, it 14 s eems like it doesn't need to start at the date that it 15 b ecomes published, that we could maybe give some time 16 o n that time schedule. 17 The other part of it is I'm kind of 18 i nterested in, what sets this timeline, whether it's 12 19 o r six months, or six, 12, 18? They seem multiple of 20 s ix is what I'm noticing. 21 And so it almost seems like we're negotiating 22 f or, you know, I want six, you want 18, we're at 12,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 a nd so a better position would be is, what actually 2 n eeds to happen in order for the -- I mean, I guess 3 w e've known for a couple of years that something is 4 g oing to happen or supposed to happen. 5 So there must be some readiness from the 6 m anufacturers, and then helping to understand what the 7 r egulations are going to be, which we have spent the 8 l ast two months working on. We have kind of a pretty 9 g ood shape of what that is, and so I'm kind of wanting 10 t o understand maybe what some of the hurdles are that 11 a re going to create a timeline of 12 months, of 18 12 m onths, or two years. It would be helpful to kind of 13 u nderstand what those issues are. 14 MS. DANE: Mary Dane from Traulsen. I can 15 k ind of give you a little background. For some of the 16 c ompanies, it is going to be that we are going to have 17 t o go back and we are going to look at groupings and 18 p utting our AEDMs together. And even if you don't 19 s tart with that point, some of the requirements that we 20 h ave agreed to and voted on, such as the PDFs that we 21 n eed for submission, some of that is going to take some 22 t ime to set all of those up. So I would say that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 a nything before 18 months, you know, with the rule 2 g oing into effect, would kind of be different and very 3 b urdensome for a manufacturer. 4 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. Go 5 a head. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 7 g uess my preference would be the lowest common 8 d enominator or the smallest manufacturer. They are 9 g oing to have the fewest resources. They are going to 10 h ave the greatest impact to their overall business. 11 B ut by the same token, that would give the larger 12 m anufacturers amazing benefit. They would have a lot of 13 e xtra time to go ahead and optimize every system they 14 h ave. So we don't want that either. So it's somewhere 15 i n the middle, right? 16 MR. EISNER: Everybody is talking a set 17 n umber of months for the whole rule, and then certain 18 e xceptions here we're talking about with respect to 19 s mall entities. Could you agree to something that would 20 g ive small entities more time than the larger 21 b usinesses? Could you agree to something where the 22 m ore difficult provisions would go into effect later on

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 i f that were possible, and other provisions would go 2 i nto effect earlier? 3 MS. DANE: Who would define that? This is 4 M ary Dane from Traulsen. Who would define who is small 5 a nd who is large and who has resources and who doesn't? 6 I mean -- 7 MR. EISNER: There are some definitions that 8 a re used in rulemaking in general under the Regulatory 9 F lexibility Act. But this group could agree to a 10 d efinition. So think about some of that in terms of 11 h ow much time you're asking for. 12 MR. BALLO: Another way this could be divided 13 u p, for the residential products there is an annual 14 r ecertification requirement that varies by product. So 15 i f there are certain products within the large group of 16 p roducts that are covered by this group for which there 17 a ren't as many changes, there aren't as significant 18 b urdens associated with the certification, those could 19 g o more quickly, and then more time would be given for 20 t he products for which more would have to be done. I 21 d on't know that we need to have one date for 22 e verything. Actually, that might not even be a bad

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 i dea, just in terms of everybody crushing to get 2 e verything done all at once. 3 MR. EISNER: I mean, there is another 4 p ossibility built on that, which is to have phase-ins. 5 Y ou get your first third done in six months, the second 6 t hird in a year, and the third third in a year and a 7 h alf, phase in like that. Again, I don't know what's 8 w orkable, but don't restrict yourself to it's got to be 9 t he lowest common denominator for the hardest company 10 t o meet this standard, because there are a lot of 11 p eople that are going to push back and say, "You need 12 t o get to efficiency faster." 13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I'd like to 14 a sk you guys, when were the requirements for every one 15 o f these categories actually put into code one way or 16 a nother? I know that some of ours were 2007. 17 MS. BARHYDT: The certification or the 18 s tandards? 19 MR. HON: The standards. 20 MS. BARHYDT: The standards vary a lot by 21 p roduct. I mean, it would take me quite a while to 22 p ull up all of the different dates.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 MR. HON: Are any of them very new? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Cracks are new. 3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'll 4 t hrow in, I like Tim's idea of by product class 5 s omewhat, because some of these, you know, commercial 6 w arm air furnaces would probably be a little bit easier 7 f or the certification information than HVAC. But yet 8 w e also need to realize that a lot of this information, 9 a s Mary indicated, is true for HVAC, that we will be 10 l ooking at what we want to -- what product classes, 11 w hat areas, what different products we want to put 12 u nder which AEDMs. 13 We may have 10 AEDMs that we do for all of 14 o ur product classes, and that will take some time to 15 p ut that information together, you know, whether we 16 w ant to do it for heat pumps or air conditioners or 17 c ombine them or, you know, where we want to put our 18 s plit for our AEDMs. So we need to take a look at our 19 t est data, our results, our simulation, et cetera, to 20 p ut all of the accurate -- as accurate as possible 21 i nformation obviously for our AEDMs and for each 22 s pecific product.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 We have to make sure we have the available 2 t est data or redo testing for those models. We also 3 h ave a lot of other DOE activities on our plate. We've 4 g ot the commercial IER rulemaking that's due by the end 5 o f the year also, right? And there may be activities 6 t hat we have to do for that. 7 You know, many of us also in the residential 8 p roduct arena -- and we have product that we are 9 a ddressing for January 1, 2015, that we are -- you 10 k now, our engineers are in the process of spending a 11 l ot of time dedicated to that. We've got the furnace 12 f an rulemaking and all of these other rulemakings that 13 a re in process that affect the same resources that 14 w ould be -- or at least a lot of the same resources 15 t hat would be working on this information. 16 So that's why I will follow suit with the 17 p rior comments that we think off the cuff 18 months 18 w ould be good in order to get all of this information 19 t ogether and be able to submit it, potentially rolling 20 s ome out earlier than later, and go down to 12 months 21 w ould be the minimum that we would like to see. 22 MS. MEYERS: And for Rheem, we are a little

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 b it unique because we not only have everything that 2 R usty just mentioned, but also we are affected by water 3 h eaters and boilers also, which are part of this. And 4 w e also have new residential efficiency standards for 5 w ater heaters coming in 2015 as well as on the A/C 6 s ide. So we are probably, I could bet, the most 7 a ffected company in the room because this affects 8 e ssentially every single product that we build. 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Two 10 o ther thoughts. One, where the people around this 11 t able, myself included, have been involved with this 12 a nd we have one level of understanding of how likely 13 t hings are to be coming out the way we negotiated it, 14 m ost of the rest of the world has very little faith in 15 t he process until the rule is there and they have to 16 c omply and they have a known date. So they're not 17 g etting ready like a number of us are getting ready 18 n ow, because they are going to wait until the final 19 r ule is out. 20 Another one to put in the list of all of the 21 t hings that are in the hopper right now, and another 22 r eason that the 18 months sounds better than a shorter

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 p eriod of time, is that for many of us the same 2 r esources that do our new product development come out 3 w ith higher efficient equipment, that sort of thing, 4 a re the ones that are going to have to do this. 5 And if we tie our resources up doing this, we 6 a re not coming out with more efficient products. And I 7 a ssure you, everyone around this table, the bulk of 8 t heir new product work is on higher efficient 9 e quipment. So we wouldn't want to have things bog down 10 t o the point where introductions into the marketplace 11 w ent on hold while we were fast tracking reporting 12 i nformation into DOE. 13 So where our company could do it in 12 14 m onths, I fully support the 18 months. 15 MR. BALLO: One other idea for flexibility, 16 s omeone earlier had mentioned, "Well, we won't know 17 w hat the requirements really are until the final rule 18 b ecause things could change." The way EPA sometimes 19 d oes these things is a proposed rule comes out with a 20 p roposed effective date, and that date will be 21 m aintained provided nothing changes in the final rule. 22 A nd for any elements as to which things change,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 a dditional time will be granted for certification. So 2 t hat could be one way to address the possibility that 3 t hings might change in the final rule. 4 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Other 5 s uggestions? 6 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley, ABMA. From my 7 p oint of view, I think the sort of datum for the staff 8 p oint, whatever the time period is, has got to be the 9 a pproval of a waiver that, you know, the ABMA members 10 a re going to have to apply for because it's apparently 11 a fairly slow process to get a waiver approved, from 12 w hat we're hearing. 13 I mean, I only know of one at the moment, 14 w hich is, you know, for Pete Moldy's company. And I 15 d on't think he has heard anything in probably close to 16 t wo months. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: So for waivers, our goal is 18 6 0 days to try to clear that -- 19 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Some do take longer than 21 o thers, some don't. 22 MR. HALLEY: So, you know, they're not going

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 t o be able to do much until they have got the waiver, I 2 p resume, and do some preparation, but not -- but can't 3 g et it completed. 4 MR. EISNER: Harvey? 5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I sometimes feel 6 l ike a blind guy trying to understand the elephant one 7 l eg at a time. I have been involved in a couple of 8 p rocesses that gave me impressions of the time scales 9 n eeded. 10 Two observations come out of the consensus 11 p rocess a few years ago for residential air 12 c onditioners, heat pumps, and furnaces. And one of 13 t hem was to reiterate -- one of them sort of adds to 14 t he comments about staging because of resource 15 l imitations within the firms. Certainly, the 16 m anufacturers at that time wanted to have the furnace 17 r ule and the air conditioner rule not be simultaneous 18 b ecause of resource constraints, best- laid plans of 19 M ice and Men and all that. 20 The other was that on the furnaces they were 21 f ully prepared to meet it in 18 months, and we also saw 22 a n 18-month period for the -- after the last appeals

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 f or the 2006 air conditioner standard. That was an 2 e normous Herculean effort by the manufacturers, and 3 t his is certainly a much smaller effort and we 4 c ertainly -- not every product -- every manufacturer 5 h ad a full product line on January 1, 2006. 6 But I think it's an indication that no more 7 t han 18 months is required in the worst case based on 8 t his limited perspective I have of industry performance 9 i n those proceedings. 10 I'd like to also suggest that there are 11 b enefits to manufacturers in some particular 12 c ategories, I think from providing earlier dates rather 13 t han later, particularly those who are in product 14 c ategories where there is a lot of customization, a lot 15 o f options, relatively small production numbers, and 16 l arge opportunities to smartly use AEDMs. And I wonder 17 i f some of these categories within CRE, for example, 18 m ight want to be ready in 12 months rather than in 18. 19 I 'm asking that because I'm trying to get an argument. 20 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 21 u nderstand what you're asking. I still believe that it 22 w ill be dependent on the company size and the ability

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 t o dedicate resources to this. What I see happening is 2 l ike in my organization there is a regulatory person, 3 a nd, you know, as such I am responsible for safety and 4 s ome other things that, you know, happen on a daily 5 b asis. And then to manage this program and another, it 6 i s going to be a very strict -- it's going to be hard 7 t o dedicate extra resources. 8 And I'm sure for other smaller companies, I 9 k now Phillip speaks up a lot for his, you know, there 10 i s a lot of requirements in this, and then, as Paul 11 p ointed out, coming online with the AEDMs and having to 12 d o verification for testing with that, and all of the 13 o ther things we're running, it will be difficult to do 14 i t in 12 months. I feel a lot more comfortable with 15 t he 18-month date. 16 MR. KLEISS: How about 15 months? 17 MS. DANE: Well, I know that's an odd number. 18 MR. SACHS: It's not that odd. 19 MS. DANE: No. I mean, even if there was 20 e ven some discussion of the difference between it 21 c oming into effect and complying with it and 22 e nforcement, I mean -- I beg your pardon?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. I think 2 t hat's all on the table. 3 MS. DANE: Yeah. So I was going to say, I'm 4 s till waiting for 18 months. 5 MR. THARP: I'll just throw in, too, that, 6 y ou know, earlier compliance is not an issue, right? 7 S o if 18 months is granted for those that need 18 8 m onths, if another company can do it in six, or seven 9 e ven, or five, that they could do it in a shorter 10 p eriod of time. 11 MS. DANE: I promise not to wait until 17-1/2 12 m onths to start. 13 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with Lennox. 14 I mean, from a business perspective, if you do 18 15 m onths you guarantee that you are going to have a 16 p lanning cycle before you allocate your engineers. My 17 c ompany jumps into their planning cycle about August, 18 s o we are going to start here pretty soon. Could we do 19 i t in six months? Yeah, I suppose we could. But you 20 a re reallocating resources towards something that is 21 a lready planned, so that's our reason for wanting 22 s omething plus a year, because we can plan for it, we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 c an allocate the resources, and we have better 2 v isibility to -- how we are going to allocate our 3 m anpower. 4 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I 5 t hink, you know, most people could agree to 18 months 6 r ight now. But if we want to try and get a little bit - 7

- push things forward a little faster, I would suggest 8 t hat maybe we table this, we take this out and discuss 9 i t in our different product type groups, and see if we 10 c an get a more aggressive schedule by product types and 11 h ave that ready for discussion next week. 12 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. It 13 s eems that maybe we are getting a little bit ahead, 14 b ecause, you know, once we finish this process, aren't 15 t here some like rulemaking procedures that have to be 16 f ollowed? And so, you know, when is this actually 17 g oing to be finalized? My understanding, there is a 18 p ossibility that there could be changes to what we 19 a gree to here, if there is public -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: There can be. I mean -- 21 MR. DOPPEL: -- comment on that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: -- we do publish a notice of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 p roposed rulemaking, and there is an opportunity for 2 c omment. I mean, certainly the idea behind this is 3 t hat with everybody sitting at the table representing 4 t he various groups, certainly we hope that we don't get 5 a dverse comments to whatever we agree to. 6 MR. DOPPEL: True. But if it did happen -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: But another part is, to 8 c hange the date also has to go through notice of rule 9 a nd comment. I mean -- 10 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that could also change. 12 S o, you know, give us our best effort here to negotiate 13 w hat we want, and, yes, both of them have to go through 14 n otice and comment. So the best bet is to put them 15 t hrough as soon as possible. Otherwise, that December 16 3 1st date is looming. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because we need notice and 19 c omment to take that one out, too. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. See, I mean, you're 21 h earing from most of the people that -- like right now, 22 i f we could take what we've agreed to and run with that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 a s final, you're saying 12 months as a minimum. So, I 2 m ean, we don't even -- December 31st -- were you 3 t alking December 31, 2014? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The rule is 2013. The 5 d ate on the books is for this year, right? 6 MR. DOPPEL: I know. I know. I was -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. But -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was just confirming. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Even if we started now, I mean, 11 i t would be very difficult for I think anybody to get - 12

- we would have to assume that everything would be as 13 a greed to, and that would be extremely, extremely 14 d ifficult. 15 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. That 16 s ounds like Jill. Let her go. 17 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Jill. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks. Yeah, I mean, I would 19 a gree, Paul, and the problem is, I mean, you guys have 20 t o have your forms all ready, and programming, such 21 t hat we can do this uploading of this information. We 22 c an't be sitting here in December and you hand us a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 f orm, and then that takes us another six months to get 2 t hat in, get the data in. 3 So, you know, that -- to me, I need to know 4 h ow long the notice and public, you know, comment 5 p eriod is. Is that another four to five months? And 6 t hen, are we going to see programming of the sheets and 7 t he upload sometime after that? 8 You know, some of our work can be done 9 e arlier like Rusty has said. You know, we can do some 10 t hings about checking our models and things. But when 11 i t comes to this actual PDF data, et cetera, and the 12 u ploads, right now I have one person doing that for all 13 o f this product. You extend that -- you make that 14 h appen in something shorter than a year, I need two 15 m ore people. 16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 17 O ne thought that Jeff had was people going back and 18 c hecking on their products and seeing how it would work 19 s eems like a good idea. The other aspect of that is 20 m aybe splitting it into, what Neil suggested, into 21 s mall and large companies, too. 22 And it sounds like it also can be if they

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 h ave lots of products that's going to be another -- 2 c ompanies have lots of products. But kind of an 3 u nderstanding of how it is going to have an impact on 4 t hose different categories can maybe help set maybe 5 d ifferent standards for different -- or different size 6 c ompanies. And I think that would be useful to 7 u nderstand based on that. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 9 J ust because -- the size of the company doesn't mean 10 t hat there's more people. We don't have people sitting 11 a round doing nothing, so, you know -- 12 MR. STARR: We are typically more 13 b ureaucratic as well and slower. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. I 16 m ean, the other thing is, you know, we've got to -- the 17 s tart date we can't assume is from today, because all 18 o f the people in this room know what's going on. We 19 a re not -- not everybody in this room represents 20 e verybody in the industry, and there are people that 21 a ren't even members of AHRI who build air conditioning 22 e quipment that have no idea and aren't participating.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 So, you know, at least no one is really going 2 t o know what it looks like until the rule gets 3 p ublished in the greater world. And the other thing is 4 a lot of the smaller companies, especially the custom 5 c ompanies that are not participating in this, probably 6 b ecause of limited resources, may have the highest 7 n umber of listings because of their product mix. And 8 t hey are typically smaller companies, so that's 9 s omething to consider. 10 You know, I support the 18 months, but it 11 n eeds to be from some line in the sand where we are 12 f airly confident that we know what the scope of work 13 i s. 14 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 15 N ational. There had been discussions earlier about 16 p ercentages and regulatory specialties and things. 17 I 'll just say, we've got -- a significant part of our 18 e ngineering department is sitting here. I mean, there 19 i s nobody in our company that does regulations. You 20 k now, we do what we can. 21 So, but I am understanding all of -- you 22 k now, bigger companies have different challenges to it.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 B ut I think splitting it up or trying to get more 2 c omplicated by categories, I think we ought to just 3 c ome up with a date that is, you know, acceptable 4 a cross the board I'll say. 5 I mean, it seems like somewhere in here we 6 a re between 12 and 18 months from publication with 7 f inal notice. It seems like that is kind of the group 8 t hat we are working with, and I don't think -- but it 9 s eems like we're not -- you know, we're not talking 10 a bout one group saying three years and one group saying 11 t wo months or at, you know, the end of this year. So 12 i t seems like we're not that far off from getting to 13 s omething that maybe we can all agree upon and get this 14 t hing put to bed. 15 I know our management, and I'm sure all the 16 c ompanies around here, the management is asking about, 17 h ey, when is there going to -- they are looking at this 18 e nd-of-the-year date, and we are all, you know, getting 19 n ervous about it, and we want to make sure that we have 20

- - and we appreciate you bringing this up. And I'd 21 r eally like to get this resolved, you know, before we 22 g o home today, or there's tomorrow.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 MR. WHITWELL: So a question from earlier. 2 I 'll bring it up again. So are we talking about 3 i mplementation date meaning manufacture date, or is it 4 d ate of sale? Because there are some products, not a 5 l ot, but there are some products that are inventory, 6 a nd so that would have to -- you know, we have to plan 7 o ut how to deplete the inventory if it's date of sale. 8 I f it's date of manufacture, it's more straightforward. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 10 T he other thing that would be important also I think is 11 w hatever timeframe we agree to that it be like 12 12 m onths or 18 months when the final rule is finalized, 13 r ather than from now, because we have been through that 14 w ith the AEDM and that has gotten us into trouble. 15 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman again from 16 N ational. I guess one question I would follow up on 17 k ind of, Bob, is what we are talking about here is 18 c ertification deadline, when we have to certify 19 p roducts, but it's not changing the regs as far as what 20 p roducts have to comply. I mean, that stuff is already 21 i n. I mean, we've got, okay, thanks for the 22 c larification there. I see the nods of DOE saying that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 i t's a correct assumption. 2 Also, I just wanted to go back real quick, 3 s omething Harvey mentioned earlier about some companies 4 b eing ready sooner, there being an advantage there. I 5 m ean, we have products -- we have done a lot of 6 t esting. We would expect to be done sooner actually 7 t han, you know, 12 or 18 months. 8 I think, you know, for DOE to say -- and I 9 a ssume there is going to be some -- you know, from a 10 c ertain time you are going to start accepting data, and 11 f rom that point on until whatever your deadline is, 12 12 o r 18 months, in that period -- hey, people, they can 13 g et their information in faster. And if that becomes 14 p ublic information, it becomes some type of a sales 15 a dvantage, then great. So I don't think that 16 n ecessarily has to put -- you know, affect the 17 d eadline, I'll say, from the objective of potentially 18 h aving a competitive advantage. 19 MR. BALLO: I have heard a couple of people 20 m ention that putting the PDFs together is going to be 21 o ne element that is going to take a particularly large 22 a mount of their time. And I'm wondering if it would be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 b etter to split that off, you know, to get the 2 c ertification, basic information into the database for 3 t he public to access, and have an additional period of 4 t ime to put the PDF together, to the extent that is a 5 b ig burden. 6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Why can't, 7 f or a designated period of time, DOE just request the 8 P DF when you decide to test that product? That way you 9 d on't have to wait for them to write the PDF. They 10 c ould give a one-month or two-month window to prepare a 11 P DF for that product, thereby eliminating the argument 12 o n the PDFs. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So if you don't have to prepare 14 a PDF, how much are you going to shorter the time 15 p eriod that you have already thrown out? 16 MS. MEYERS: So back to Bob's question, so is 17 i t going to be based upon manufacture date? 18 MS. BARHYDT: So the certification would be 19 f or whatever is in distribution in commerce at the time 20 t hat you file the certification. The issue, at least 21 w hat I thought Bob was asking about earlier in the day, 22 w as if you have some new model, some new concept, that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 y ou haven't already certified that is not subsumed 2 w ithin a basic model, at what point do I have to submit 3 a certification for that? 4 I thought that's what you were asking earlier 5 t oday, but maybe I had misunderstood. 6 MR. WHITWELL: No. I was actually talking 7 a bout current product that could be in inventory. But, 8 y es, that's a good question. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So the certification would be 10 f or whatever is being distributed in commerce from that 11 p oint forward. So sold. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Sold. 13 MS. MEYERS: So that might could be an issue, 14 s o -- because you could have -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So if it's already with 16 a distributor and somebody else is selling it, it's not 17 s ubject to the certification provisions. The 18 d istribution in commerce is by the manufacturer. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So your warehouses. Your 20 c ontrol, right? 21 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp. In the 22 F ederal Register Notice of the way of the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 c ertification, at the end of last year DOE said, "The 2 D epartment will refrain from selecting models for 3 a ssessment testing for which the manufacturer has 4 s ubmitted a valid certification report in CCMS." 5 So I might suggest that we would agree to 18 6 m onths and DOE would issue a similar statement that for 7 t he period up until the effective date -- that way 8 t hose manufacturers who chose to try to get it done in 9 s ix months would have a year reprieve. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And if more of you had taken 11 a dvantage of this fabulous offer, I might be more 12 i nclined to go with it. 13 However, given the very weak response we have 14 h ad to this offer, I am actually not inclined to extend 15 t hat kind of an offer again. 16 MR. THARP: We assume that this type of 17 a ctivity would be going on. 18 MS. BARHYDT: And we're assessing testing. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments? 20 MS. MEYERS: I think from our viewpoint we 21 m ight could agree on a date less than 18 months, if it 22 w as based upon the date of manufacture, because you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 c ould have a model in inventory that has maybe been 2 t here two months or so that may have been certified or 3 g rouped differently than something -- than this 4 p rocedure is going to require. 5 So that -- I can see that transition being 6 v ery difficult for us. And it may not have a PDF or -- 7 I don't know. If it could be based on date of 8 m anufacture, it makes it much easier for us to manage 9 t he program. 10 MR. EISNER: Can you move a product to a 11 d ifferent category to the rule if it has already been 12 c ategorized and -- 13 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 14 MR. EISNER: Can you move a product from one 15 c ategory to another after the rule comes out? 16 M anufactured before the date of the rule, sold after 17 t he date, is it okay as long as they have changed it 18 a nd you have used a different basic model to come out 19 w ith the data? 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think that would 21 a ddress what Karen is saying. 22 MS. MEYERS: I don't think it would either,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 b ut, you know, if we are not having to work backwards, 2 a nd we are saying all products that we manufacturer as 3 o f X date must be certified per these new requirements, 4 i t is easier for us to plan and manage a project like 5 t his, which is going to be pretty massive, so that we 6 c an start preparing, and then -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: So if I said we would give on 8 t hat, and it was manufacture, could you do six months? 9 MS. MEYERS: No. There is no way. No way. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And no PDF. 11 MS. MEYERS: No way. 12 Not to do commercial HVAC, commercial water 13 h eating, and boilers. Absolutely no way. I was 14 t hinking 15. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I 16 w ould suggest one way to get around this question of 17 d ate of manufacture is that at least for the initial 18 s ubmission of the certification reports, because we 19 h ave nothing right now, right? We are putting 20 s omething together here. At least for that initial 21 c ertification there should be a choice that the 22 m anufacturer can enter which would be I'm going to say

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 m anufacturer discontinued. 2 Right now, Laura, you know, we have different 3

- - for our own valid reasons, different definitions of 4 " discontinued." But if for that initial certification 5 t he manufacturer was able -- was allowed to identify 6 m anufacturer discontinued, which means "I used to make 7 t hem and they are still out there for sale, but I make 8 t hem no more" -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: I'm selling off my stock. 10 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. Right. That might 11 s olve some of this, because in fact then effectively 12 w hat they will be reporting as their current line is in 13 f act things that are being made as of that date. 14 MS. BARHYDT: But, Karen, you would still 15 n eed to submit that I am selling this product. You are 16 j ust identifying it as discontinued. Does that 17 a ctually address your concern? 18 MS. MEYERS: I think it addresses mine. Does 19 i t meet your requirements? And like we have products 20 i n our -- I mean, we're dealing in product now that's, 21 y ou know, sellable but not buildable, because we are no 22 l onger building it. But if it's still in stock, you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 c an still sell it. And then we have, you know, 2 p roducts that are discontinued. You can't build it; 3 y ou can't sell it. So I think from our standpoint we 4 c ould, but how does that work in with your 5 c ertification? So -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So because for us we are still 7 m eeting the -- you are certifying everything that you 8 a re distributing in commerce, and it's -- you are 9 b asically designating "I am no longer making this." 10 T hat is fine. I mean, we can live with that. The main 11 t hing is that everything that is being distributed in 12 c ommerce is certified. 13 MR. STANONIK: And let me interject something 14 h ere, because it was an assumption behind my suggestion 15 t hat I want to make sure everybody appreciates is, 16 o kay, as operators of efficiency certification 17 p rograms, you know, notwithstanding whatever we are 18 t alking about here, you know, I would still say that 19 f or the products I am talking about in fact there still 20 h ad been some certification at some point in time, 21 a lthough it was not "DOE certification." 22 And so I am making an assumption that in most

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 c ases these discontinued models in fact would probably 2 b e covered by somebody's AEDMs anyhow, because they are 3 g oing -- I would think in most cases, you know, 4 m anufacturers are making evolutionary changes, not, you 5 k now, complete overhauls of products. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. 7 S tereotypically, if there is anything to do with an 8 i ncrease in efficiency, our company fully supports it 9 a nd wants it to happen as fast as possible. But in 10 t his situation everything we make is going to be 11 a ffected in the next few years. And it -- I don't 12 t hink we could do less than 18 months. 13 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. I know from 14 o ur company's standpoint the PDF information is one 15 p arallel path that we have got to do. But we are also 16 g oing to -- I also feel like we are going to be doing 17 s ome testing. We've got to verify our AEDMs. We 18 p robably want to test some models, which is not the 19 s ame resources, strictly speaking. 20 So part of that 18 months is I think it will 21 t ake 18 months for me to get through the testing I feel 22 I need to do to be confident, probably testing beyond

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 w hat you are going to require, but testing that I feel 2 l ike I need to do to make sure that we are confident in 3 w hat we are doing. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So from the Department's 5 p erspective, we know that we have received comments for 6 1 8 months from the final rule for the AEDMs. But we 7 h ave negotiated different AEDM provisions that are 8 c onsiderably less burdensome than what was originally 9 p roposed. 10 We have heard from -- many of you referred to 11 y our AEDMs. We know that you are all making ratings. 12 T he standards have been in effect for a long time. I 13 d on't understand why you aren't in a better position to 14 b e able to use new AEDM provisions in a shorter 15 t imeframe than 18 months after an AEDM final rule. I 16 m ean, to me that says we have had two years, nothing 17 h as happened. We are negotiating this now; nothing is 18 h appening. We are going to go through an entire 19 r ulemaking process, which we all know is not as fast as 20 w e might like, and nothing is going to happen. 21 And then starting on that day it is going to 22 t ake me 18 months to get to where I can actually

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 c ertify something. And I don't understand why it takes 2 1 8 months. 3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane, AHRI. 4 L aura, I mean, two years happened, but the rule has 5 n ever been finalized. So before -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: We have a final rule requiring 7 c ertification. 8 MR. AMRANE: No, no, no. That's -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We have been very 10 r esponsive in postponing that deadline. 11 MR. AMRANE: I'm talking about the AEDM. I'm 12 t alking about the AEDM. The AEDM has -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: There are AEDM provisions for 14 e veryone except for the CRE. 15 MR. AMRANE: Yes. But those AEDM 16 r equirements are different now. They have changed. So 17 d o you want the manufacturers to invest time and 18 r esources to develop something that will be obsolete? 19 MR. HURST: We already did it with regional 20 s tandards. I mean, we wasted perhaps millions of 21 d ollars developing product that we don't even know if 22 i t's going to go into effect. I mean, kind of a sore

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 s ubject with us, and I'm sure it's with you as well. 2 B ut those are real dollars and real investment towards 3

- - unfortunately, we play this game and we don't know 4 w hen they really go into effect. 5 So we are pretty gun shy about developing 6 p roduct or process or systems to do something that we 7 d on't know is going to happen. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I think Laura's 9 p oint, though, was one of you have previously asked for 10 1 8 months from our final rule, given the proposal that 11 y ou saw before. And what we did initially when we got 12 i nto this is voted to bring in AEDMs. We negotiated 13 A EDMs around what you guys thought you could handle, 14 w hat we were comfortable with. We thought the result 15 w as far more workable for everyone. It required 16 s ignificantly less testing. 17 So what Laura's point of view is, the number 18 c an't be the same. In other words, we came to the 19 t able, you guys came to the table, we all worked 20 t ogether. And if we're talking from the point of a 21 f inal rule, take away the fact that, yes, you need to 22 k now what the final rule is going to be, from the point

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 o f the final rule, what is the new number if you have 2 n ow seen what the AEDM provisions may look like. 3 B ecause they were far different before, and you are 4 s till saying the same number. 5 MS. MEYERS: I mean, we asked on timing at 6 t he very first meeting. I mean, that was one of the 7 q uestions that we asked, you know, what is the timing 8 o f this? What is the timing of this? And there's a 9 s tatistic, and I don't know if this number is exactly 10 r ight, but in the last three years there has been 97 11 r ulemakings come out from DOE that cover this product, 12 c over water heating and residential and commercial 13 H VAC. 14 So there has been test procedures, there has 15 b een like almost 100 in the last three years. So there 16 h as been a lot of activity that we have been trying to 17 m anage. So, you know, I think that's the reason. 18 T here may be some products that we can do shorter, and 19 I think it was Jeff or somebody who said, you know, 20 c ould we maybe do, you know, small water heaters in a 21 s horter timeframe or three phase less than five ton in 22 a smaller -- in less than 18 months? Perhaps we can do

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 t hat. 2 MS. BARHYDT: But we had a proposal that was 3 g oing to require five tests for every single product 4 c lass. We are down to two for super-groups of product 5 c lasses. We have dramatically reduced the amount of 6 t esting required in our proposal that we agreed to, and 7 y et the number hasn't changed. 8 MR. THARP: Laura, this is Rusty Tharp with 9 G oodman. I will say that, at least for my company, 10 e ven though the minimum requirement is still two tests 11 f or a very broad range, we would still do -- we would 12 l ikely do something like one for heat pumps less than 13 1 0 ton, another one for air conditioners less than 10 14 t on, and we will look at test data for those, because 15 t he reality is is you're doing your computer 16 s imulations. There are tweaks that you do to have the 17 c omputer simulations match the test data and to look at 18 h ow the product operates. 19 And, you know, depending on whether one 20 m anufacturer -- and we may be using one type of heat 21 t ransfer technology, smart coil five millimeter, in 22 s ome products. We may be using, you know, different

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 t ube diameters, micro channel, and so these various 2 r anges of products we would likely be having separate 3 A EDMs for each one of those. 4 And it will take time for the engineering 5 g roups to look at all of these and determine what is 6 t he best and most accurate according to the latest 7 r ules that we need to do. So that is -- you know, from 8 m y standpoint, having been in engineering for 26 years, 9 I think a year is reasonable for that type of activity, 10 a long with all of the other activity that is going on 11 a s far as regular business. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So, Rusty, you -- and I don't 13 r emember if it was specifically you, but a number of 14 p eople have said, "We have software that estimates 15 e fficiency." And you have already developed software 16 t hat estimates the efficiency of your products. And 17 p resumably you already have test data, because you are 18 a n AHRI member and you have verification testing done 19 o n a regular basis. 20 And presumably that testing is done in 21 a ccordance with the DOE test procedure. And so if you 22 a lready have a model, and AHRI members already had a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 f ive percent tolerance, and we have talked about a five 2 p ercent tolerance, so presumably your model is already 3 w ithin the five percent. 4 So, again, what do you have to do new that 5 y ou don't already have? 6 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. Part 7 o f it is the documentation. And, again, going back to 8 o ur - - you know, we feel that what would probably be 9 m ost accurate is to break it up for my company probably 10 i n various capacities or various product types -- A/C, 11 h eat pump, et cetera, you know, maybe do one for water 12 s ource, one for air source, you know, separate one for 13 P TAC. So we have all of these various groups, and we 14 w ould feel that, you know, it's -- we need to go look 15 a t the test data, look at the simulations, and see what 16 i s the most accurate way to make the predictions under 17 t he latest rules, to make sure that we're in compliance 18 f or every product that we make. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So maybe -- let me word the 20 q uestion a little bit differently. You say that "under 21 t he new rules," but the new rules set up a framework. 22 T hey don't actually -- the AEDM provisions don't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 r equire specific things other than that you have tests 2 a nd that those tests be within a certain percentage of 3 y our estimation. 4 So what is it that -- so from my perspective, 5 i t seems like you have a spreadsheet that says, "Well, 6 t his was my test data and this is the estimation, and 7 i t's within five percent, so I can certify this." It 8 m eets the requirements of the reg. What is it that -- 9 I just - - I honestly -- I don't understand what it is 10 t hat I'm missing from that middle part of the analysis. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HPT. I 12 t hink a different -- a paradigm shift might be in 13 o rder. Before when we have done this kind of thing, it 14 h as been just a handful of product classes, and 15 m anufacturers have been able to respond in 12 to 18 16 m onths. And now you are looking at all of these 17 p roduct classes together, and we are still saying 12 to 18 1 8 months. 19 So I think there is a tremendous improvement 20 t hat we are making here. But just as a frame of 21 r eference -- and I am going to put AHRI on the spot -- 22 w ith the recent residential boiler rerate, all of the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 c ondensing residential boilers have to be rerated this 2 y ear; right? That happened -- the notice came out in 3 D ecember of last year or late November. 4 Do we have a percentage of all the models 5 t hat have actually been rerated in the residential 6 b oiler industry? Because I'm sure not all of them have 7 y et. And that was just doing a heat-up and a cool-down 8 t est, but it has affected every condensing residential 9 b oiler. And it is -- yes. 10 MS. BARHYDT: This doesn't require all of 11 t hat testing. 12 MR. STEPHENS: But there are other associated 13 i nstances. It is very much akin to a tolerance 14 a nalysis. Tolerances always accumulate. They never 15 s ubtract. They never reduce. And we are looking at 16 t he uncertainty with an AEDM., we are looking at an 17 u ncertainty with each product line, and we are looking 18 a t the impacts to all of our resources for that. 19 And I don't think there is a manufacturer in 20 h ere that only has products in one category. I may be 21 w rong about that. But we all have multiple variables 22 t hat we are concerned about. And the farther it gets

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 o ut into the future, the more uncertainty it has. 2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. And we need 3 t o keep in mind all of the manufacturers, besides those 4 w ho are around this table, who have not heard at all 5 t he discussions we have been having the last three 6 m onths. So we need to keep in mind that -- too, those 7 f olks who have to find out about all of this, and to be 8 r eady for all of this. And I can tell you that not 9 e very manufacturer has the same capabilities in terms 10 o f developing computer simulation tools or things like 11 t hat. 12 So I don't think that 18 months is reasonable 13 t o be ready for compliance when you have to understand 14 t hat many manufacturers would find out about it for the 15 f irst time when this final rule would come out. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. To add 17 t o that, Karim, in addition to manufacturers that are 18 j ust finding out about it, Laura, you talked about the 19 m anufacturers that are in the certification program 20 t hat already have all of this information. There are 21 l ots of us that are not in that certification program 22 a nd don't have all of that. We have what we have, and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 i t is not what we need. So we have to generate what we 2 n eed. 3 We have not been designing our products with 4 a n AEDM. We have been testing to make certain that 5 t hey comply, but we will do that during our development 6 c ycle, not on every variation, but we are certain that 7 e very variation is covered. But we don't have test 8 d ata on it, so we have a lot of testing to do to 9 d evelop our AEDM beyond validating it according to what 10 w e have agreed to here for the AEDM. So we have to 11 c reate that entity. 12 The reason that I feel like I was able -- am 13 a ble to do it in 12 months is because I have been here 14 i n the middle of the negotiation, I know what we agreed 15 t o, and based on that I have already begun. But if you 16 a dd that onto what people that are not in this room are 17 d oing, that is their 18 months. 18 You know, I've got it only because I have the 19 p rivilege of being involved with everything here. So I 20 t hink the 18 months is not unreasonable. And you 21 t alked about, well, it was 18 months before; how can it 22 s till be 18 months? If I had known what I know now, I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 p robably would have been calling for 36 months or 24 2 m onths before. 3 So the fact that that's what it was was based 4 o n a very poor understanding of what all was involved. 5 W e have now gone through every line, every detail, and 6 b ased on that what this group is -- many in this group 7 a re saying is 18 months. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 9 S o, you know, even those of us who have had 10 v erification testing done by AHRI, and, you know, all 11 o f that was based on tests that were done to get those 12 r atings. So to do an AEDM is a new process, and it is 13

- - you know, we don't want to just do two tests and 14 g uess at something, and then find out that we missed 15 i t. You know, it is going to -- it will probably take 16 m ore than -- two tests is the minimum. 17 But I'm sure most manufacturers will be doing 18 m ore than that to make sure that what -- the results 19 t hat we're getting are going to be within the 20 a cceptable limits, and that, you know, we are certain 21 t hat we are going to be putting out numbers that are 22 f airly accurate.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a question for 2 e verybody. What happens if we can't come to an 3 a greement here? December 31st is real close. 4 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 5 d on't think that -- it's not that we won't come to an 6 a greement. I think it is just understanding what we 7 a re asking for. 8 Kind of to your point, Laura, some of the 9 i ndustries, we don't belong to AHRI. Commercial 10 r efrigeration, there is only company that belongs to 11 i t, so we don't have that verification testing history 12 t o go back to and say, you know, we can put a lot of 13 t his on there. 14 So, you know, an industry like CRE, depending 15 o n -- you know, some of the bigger companies can 16 p robably go to it, but it is not just resources. We 17 d on't have that history. 18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I 19 b elieve that with the small commercial boilers all that 20 w e are reporting is thermal efficiency. It is fairly 21 s traightforward. It's a good amount of history. Most 22 m anufacturers have product in stock. If they did need

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 t o run additional tests, that is probably something 2 t hat could be reported in six months. 3 Now, I don't want to throw other 4 m anufacturers under the bus without having a 5 c onversation with them, but this is going back to the 6 p oint that if we can just have a week to have some 7 o ffline discussions, by product class, we can at least 8 o ffer you some short-term deliverables, I believe. 9 MS. BARHYDT: That sounds wonderful. 10 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. I like it 11 a lso. But what particularly hit me just now is that 12 a ll of this is going to have a vast learning curve for 13 e verybody concerned. And encouraging early submissions 14 o r staggered deadlines will help that interface between 15 t he manufacturers, the trade associations, and DOE, so 16 t hat we can learn on classes where it is fairly simple 17 a nd straightforward and be ready for the hard jobs. 18 So that's one reason why I'm pretty strongly 19 i nclined against one size, 18 months, six months, or 20 a ny other number for all of these product classes, even 21 i f people are allowed to submit early. 22 MR. EISNER: Does one week sound good to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 e verybody? 2 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. Can 3 w e have written down some of the things we need to talk 4 a bout over the next week, so when we get back we can 5 v ote on it pretty quickly? Like when does the 6 e ffective date start from whatever timeline we are 7 g oing to start from? Is it at the end of the 8 r ulemaking? Is it at the end of this? When is that? 9 H ow long do we think we are going to take by product 10 c lass, by group? And then also, you know, is it going 11 t o take effect of the manufacturing date? Or is it -- 12 y ou know, those kinds of things -- can we have it in 13 w riting, so at least everyone knows exactly what they 14 n eed to be talking about for the next time? 15 Because we've had a long discussion, but, you 16 k now, we talked about a lot of different things. But I 17 t hink everyone's head is kind of spinning from a long 18 d ay, and so it would be nice to have it all written 19 d own, so we know exactly what to come back next week 20 w ith answers to. 21 MR. THARP: I would like to add to that any 22 p ending regulations for each product class, just so

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 n obody overlooks anything. 2 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. 3 A nd, Neil, I want to answer your question that, no, one 4 w eek is not enough. And, I mean, I'm being totally 5 p ractical about it. Tomorrow you are meeting, right? 6 S o this week we have Friday. Next week we are meeting 7 W ednesday/Thursday. So one week is actually Friday, 8 M onday, Tuesday. 9 And being totally selfish, you are asking me 10 t o consult with commercial water heater manufacturers, 11 c ommercial boiler manufacturers, commercial furnace 12 m anufacturers, commercial air conditioning 13 m anufacturers, commercial -- a wide range of my 14 m embership, and to try and get some idea of when they 15 t hink they could comply with an AEDM proposal most of 16 t hem have not seen. 17 I mean, if I came back -- if you asked us to 18 c ome back in a week to give you a number that we could 19 a ll agree on, it would be a number -- you know, at this 20 p oint it wouldn't be anything different than 18 months. 21 I mean, honestly, we would need at least not -- not the 22 n ext meeting, but the meeting after that, which I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 b elieve is scheduled for the 21st or whatever. 2 MR. EISNER: The next meeting is late in 3 A ugust. 4 MR. STANONIK: Yeah. I mean -- 5 MR. EISNER: If it's not next week, I believe 6 i t's the end of August. And the report is due within a 7 f ew days of that meeting. 8 MR. STANONIK: Well, then -- okay. Then the 9 o ther option would be that we could come back to you 10 w ith some alternative suggested dates in between there, 11 w hich would simply be an email and teleconference or 12 s omething. But, I mean -- 13 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. We 14 h ad a meeting scheduled for August 20/21. That was 15 t entatively scheduled. So maybe we could redo that. 16 MR. EISNER: I can't be here that date. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Oh, okay. 18 MR. EISNER: That's why when we were talking 19 a bout dates we scheduled two early and one later. 20 MR. STANONIK: We could let you call in. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. Time difference 22 e ven?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 MR. STANONIK: And if the discussion was 2 s imply this issue of what date or what series of dates, 3 b ecause it may end up being staggered, I would propose, 4 d o you actually need a sit-down meeting, or could it be 5 t eleconferenced? 6 MR. EISNER: How do others feel about a week? 7 MS. DANE: Some of us come from further 8 d istances, and so we lose a whole day in travel on top 9 o f that. I mean, even at a Friday/Monday/Tuesday work 10 w eek, some of us come from the other coast and travel 11 o n Tuesday. So now we're down to two days. 12 MR. STARR: The other thing to consider -- 13 t his is Louis with NEEA -- you know, AHRI is probably 14 e ncompassing and thinking quite a bit of industry, and 15 I 'm wondering if they were able to get some information 16 t ogether, and, you know, we can put it on SharePoint or 17 s omething like that. At least we will have an idea. 18 It takes however long it takes to collect 19 t hat data. I'm not sure how representative AHRI is of 20 a ll of the issues that are here. Probably not so much 21 o f the refrigeration, but it sounds like the other 22 e quipment maybe more so.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HPT. All 2 k idding aside, this is a prime candidate for something 3 s uch as a doodle pole. I know AHRI uses those a lot to 4 i dentify the best time for a meeting. So very similar 5 a pplication. 6 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. But, 7 a gain, I mean, for the majority of AHRI members, they 8 h ave no idea what the requirements of the AEDM is, what 9 w e have been talking in this room. So, I mean, so just 10 t o have a conversation, you know, we need to explain, 11 w e need to -- I mean, so I -- again, my suggestion to 12 D OE would be to maybe encourage people to file early 13 i nformation. I mean, if you want this information in 14 s ix months or, I don't know, a year, I don't know. But 15 t hen give 18 months from the date of publication of the 16 f inal rule, the AEDM, to complete all of the 17 c ertification requirements. 18 So at least you will have some of the data 19 b ecause some of the manufacturers might be able to 20 p rovide you the information earlier. But at least 21 p rovide us 18 months, because I know for a fact, I 22 m ean, there are some manufacturers who don't know what

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 a n AEDM is and don't have an AEDM, and then who will 2 h ave to develop one, and that is not going to be done 3 i n six months. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, so, Karim, you said 5 y ou -- oh, go ahead, Tim. 6 MR. BALLO: I was just going to say that if 7 t here are, you know, hardship situations out there 8 w here certain products, certain manufacturers, certain 9 p ieces of information need 18 months, fine. But my 10 b ottom line is, I want to see -- I want to be able to 11 g o to the database and see stuff much sooner than that. 12 A nd so something has to be six months, something has to 13 b e a year. If stuff needs to take 18 months, certain 14 s tuff needs to take that long. But I shouldn't have to 15 w ait 18 months for everything. 16 MR. AMRANE: Tim, excuse me, but you don't 17 h ave to do all of this. You are not involved in this. 18 Y ou don't know what it is. Of course, you want the 19 i nformation. But, you know, there are some real issues 20 h ere. I mean, you know, it takes time, it takes 21 r esources, it takes engineers to do all of this. It is 22 n ot like it is going to happen overnight because just

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 y ou want the data in three months or in six months. 2 MR. BALLO: I'm not suggesting that it is 3 t hat simple. I'm just saying that we have heard a 4 v ariety of views already on people saying they think 5 t hat can be done sooner. To the extent things can be 6 d one sooner, that's what I'm after. But no one has 7 s aid that -- well, most people aren't saying that 8 e verything will take 18 months. 9 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. But 10 t hat's just the people in this room, and that's not all 11 o f the representation of every company in the industry. 12 MR. EISNER: But I have to say to you, in 13 f airness, that you are all here representing those 14 p eople for quite a few months. They are supposed to be 15 a ware of what has been going on on AEDMs. They are 16 s upposed to be aware of what has been going on in these 17 o ther things. Nobody should be surprised by where we 18 a re right now. 19 MR. AMRANE: So why is it that DOE hasn't 20 p ublished anything? Then DOE should have published all 21 o f the information on the website for everybody to look 22 a t. It is only limited to those members of this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 C ommittee. 2 MR. EISNER: The members of this Committee 3 c an be talking to the groups that they represent around 4 t he table. 5 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with Lennox. 6 MR. EISNER: Pardon? 7 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. How many 8 m embers does AHRI have? A few hundred? 9 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, about 300. 10 MR. HURST: Okay. It's not my job 11 d escription, working for Lennox International, to 12 c ommunicate to my competitors what happens here. It 13 m ay be AHRI's charter, but there are some that aren't 14 e ven members. It is enough that I have to go back and 15 c ommunicate to my own engineering team and product 16 d evelopment team. But I don't think it's incumbent 17 u pon me to communicate what happens here to other 18 m embers or non-members in this industry. I think it's 19 u nrealistic. 20 MR. EISNER: Let me put it a little 21 d ifferently. If it's not your job, it's the job of the 22 p eople who aren't here to keep informed and make sure

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 t heir views are known. Anybody can be online listening 2 t o this. So that's why I'm personally, as the 3 f acilitator, having a hard time hearing, "Well, nobody 4 k nows what is going on in this room." They all should 5 k now what is going on in this room, if they are 6 i nterested and they want to play a role in the 7 d ecision. 8 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 9 MR. EISNER: And that works both ways. 10 MR. KOJAK: The things I have been telling 11 t he people in my organization is is that none of this 12 i s a final rule. This is just what we are recommending 13 t o ASRAC. That was what we talked about at the first 14 m eeting was these are just recommendations to ASRAC, 15 a nd that they have the option to change whatever we, 16 y ou know, submit to them. They are the ultimate 17 d ecision makers to the DOE. 18 So I don't want to tell my organization, 19 " This is what the new rules are going to be" if it's 20 n ot a real rulemaking. It still has to go to a 21 p roposed rule. People can make comments, public 22 c omments. It can change.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 So why set in motion things in our 2 o rganization that is going to cost, like John was 3 s aying, you know, multiple -- you know, a lot of money 4 a nd resources to move something in a direction that is 5 n ot really a rulemaking, and then, you know, at the end 6 i t changes, and then everything is different. So -- 7 MR. EISNER: Mike, we're not talking about a 8 r ulemaking. We're talking about representation of 9 v iews with respect to the issues that are being 10 d iscussed at this table. You are all supposed to be 11 r epresenting more than your particular interest. You 12 a re not here to represent Carrier or one other -- some 13 o ther company. You are here to reflect the views of the 14 p eople who have common interests, and it may change 15 f rom issue to issue. 16 The two people in the corner aren't 17 r epresenting all the public -- they are representing 18 a ll of the public interest groups that aren't here. 19 T hey have the right to call them up and say, "I don't 20 p articularly agree with what I've heard. I would like 21 y ou to go in there and express my opinion." That's the 22 o nly way it works, because if we sit down and all agree

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 t o what should be in this proposed rule, and 90 percent 2 o f the industry says, "This is the first I've heard; I 3 o bject" this group won't be successful. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Neil, this is Bob Whitwell. 5 Y ou mentioned Carrier, so I -- 6 We, as the industry, we're here, we're trying 7 t o represent what we think would be the views of the 8 o ther manufacturers as well. But to John's point, I 9 m ean, we - - I don't feel that we can go out and start 10 h aving conversations with our competitors and 11 d iscussing these things directly with them one to one. 12 I think that that's something -- there has been 13 c ommunications that have been going out through AHRI on 14 t his. So hopefully they are paying attention. But I 15 d on't think we know that they are all, you know, 16 t otally up to speed because they are not able to 17 p articipate in this, or they are not participating in 18 t his. Maybe that's -- 19 MR. EISNER: That's a key point. They can be 20 l istening; they can be making their views known. We've 21 g ot people sitting in the back room who are not members 22 o f the Committee, but have been here regularly or

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 p articipated over the phone. So I am a little troubled 2 w hen I hear that -- we can't expect every single 3 m anufacturer to have every single view that they want 4 t o raise raised at this meeting. But they are supposed 5 t o be able to raise their views either through some of 6 y ou or through participating themselves. So to say 7 t hat you need more time to figure that out, when we are 8 g oing into the last month of the process -- 9 MS. MEYERS: There is a huge difference 10 b etween being aware of the talks going on and the 11 g eneral concepts and actually putting the pencil to the 12 p aper and figuring out the impact the resources 13 r equired and the man-hours that you are going to have 14 t o do and scheduling your labs and getting the test 15 c ells booked to do all of that information. 16 There is a way huge -- I mean, it is just a 17 n ight-and-day difference, and so, you know, I have been 18 t alking to my people. They are generally aware of it, 19 a nd they kind of nod their head and, you know, "Well, 20 w hen are we going to see the final rule, so that we can 21 a ctually start?" We know exactly what we need to plan 22 f or.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 So there is a big difference in just 2 a wareness and then being able to go back and figure out 3 t he project and lay out a project timeline to be able 4 t o accomplish all of this and assign the manpower and 5 t he dollars and then get the project approved by 6 m anagement, because likely there may be outside 7 t esting. And this is going to cost, you know, millions 8 o f dollars for the industry to implement some of these 9 n ew things. 10 So it is a much bigger deal than -- so that's 11 w hy when it is all approved and we have a final rule 12 a nd we are pretty sure of what the exact requirements 13 a re going to be, that's when the planning process 14 s tarts, because you are not going to go -- I mean, 15 w e've got 90- something DOE rulemakings that have come 16 o ut in the last three years. That's what we know we 17 n eed to work on, and that's what we're planning, and 18 t hat's what the engineers are focusing on, not, you 19 k now, this concept out here that hasn't been finalized. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 21 A lso, you know, we have just -- in the last 30 days 22 h ave finalized what the product types are. I mean,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 t hat was a big unknown. We agreed -- we went through 2 a ll of the accessories and, you know, we appreciate 3 D OE's openness and going through all of those and 4 h elping to parse those out, so that we could actually 5 m ake determinations on how many basic model groups we 6 w ere going to have, how many different AEDMs we would 7 h ave to develop. So, I mean, that's not like that 8 h appened four months ago. That has only happened 9 r ecently. 10 And even today we just -- with the high 11 s tatic motors, alternate static motors, we just 12 f inalized that today, and that has a big impact on 13 t hings that people need to do with models. So it's -- 14 y ou know, I mean, we are really just kind of starting 15 f rom today with having a certain finality of what the 16 m odel groups are going to be and how we are going to 17 h ave to divide products up. So there is still a lot of 18 w ork to be done. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I have 20 b een trying to jump in a couple of times, so I'm just 21 g oing to go ahead and do it now. I know for a fact 22 s everal of us have taken advantage of networking

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 o pportunities and online opportunities to make sure 2 t hat the industry is aware of this situation. 3 I myself have contacted three or four 4 d ifferent manufacturers and discussed it. One is 5 s itting back in the back corner, and that happened at 6 a n AHRI event when there were a group of us together. 7 S o they chose not to participate. Hopefully, they're 8 o n the telephone now. But we can only make the best 9 d ecisions that we can make with the data we have, and 10 t he data we have is our company, right? 11 And you're absolutely right, it is going to 12 t ake way too long for this if we rely on AHRI to go out 13 a nd poll every single member, because the results you 14 a re going to get are going to be so widely distributed 15 p eople don't know, so they are going to give 16 t remendously long timeframes. 17 So I think we have to draw that line 18 s omewhere, and I think a couple of weeks for us to know 19

- - to go back and review our data and have a better 20 c omfort level in our understanding at this point is 21 v ery reasonable. 22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I will

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 f urther add to the response to your question, Laura, 2 a bout, you know, don't we already have test data. One 3 e xample, as Paul mentioned, the motors as being 4 f inalized today. Let's go back to the code of coils. 5 T he code of coils are going to be tested, so we need to 6 g o back and look at every single one of our units that 7 w e have in production. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Really? 9 MR. THARP: Coated coils; right? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So should I revisit that 11 d ecision? Do we want to -- do you want to vote again? 12 MR. THARP: It's crazy talk. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you bringing that up, 14 R usty? 15 The industry changed their position? 16 MR. THARP: The cooper coils. Maybe that's 17 i t. That's what I was thinking of. Thinking of PTACs. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm confused. 19 MR. THARP: PTACs, for example. PTACs. 20 T here we go. That's what I was thinking of. PTACs is 21 t he -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, what is the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 b ottom line here? You guys -- I mean, we could talk 2 a bout this. You guys asked for 18 months, generally. 3 T here was a couple of people that said they might could 4 d o it earlier. The Department is asking if there is 5 a ny way we could stage this or go back and think about 6 i t. I mean, it doesn't seem like we are going to 7 r esolve this today. It seems like you are saying you 8 n eed more than a week to resolve it. 9 I don't know if it would help to -- one 10 o ption is to say we won't officially meet tomorrow, let 11 y ou guys meet as groups or together in your respective 12 i ndustries, or talk to your people back home, or 13 h owever you want to do it, that's one option, too, to 14 g ive another working day. Another option is to say we 15 w on't meet next week and then -- 16 MR. HURST: Can I make another proposal, 17 m aybe? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 19 MR. HURST: Maybe as a compromise? We were 20 t alking -- you know, we are not going to wait until 21 m onth 17 day 30 to upload everything. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 MR. HURST: For us it's going to be an 2 i terative process. I am speaking for myself, not for 3 o ther people I haven't spoken to. But maybe a phased4 i n approach that says by a certain time you have X 5 p ercent, because to the earlier points there are some 6 t hings that we could do fairly quickly. There are 7 o ther things that are going to take some time. 8 I just don't know where we are 9 c omprehensively. The 18 months -- when I say 18 months, 10 I 'm talking about being fully compliant with the 11 r egulation, not that we won't load stuff earlier 12 b ecause we can, but maybe if there was some compromise 13 t o say if we can get to this point by this timeframe, 14 a nd maybe define it by broad product categories, maybe 15 t hat's a compromise. I don't know. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that -- I mean, at 17 t his point, the Department just wants to know, how much 18 t ime do you want to discuss what your options are? In 19 o ther words, you guys need to -- you've seen what we've 20 n egotiated, you've seen what we've negotiated as to the 21 c ert requirements, you've seen what we've negotiated 22 f or AEDMs, which were approved by ASRAC and sent to the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 D epartment, you've seen what we've negotiated for basic 2 m odels. So you have all of the pieces. 3 Now it's a matter of the date, and the date 4 i s really important because right now December 31st is 5 s till on the books. So what we're asking of you is you 6 g uys need a couple weeks, whatever that timeframe is. 7 W e are asking for a date. When is the date you want to 8 c ome back and have those discussions about what date we 9 c ould vote on or what phased-in requirements or what 10 o ptions there may be that you could present to the 11 g roup to consider for voting. 12 MS. MEYERS: So just -- I think it's a good 13 s uggestion, but let's just walk through the process. 14 S o we are supposed to file the final report with ASRAC 15 a t the end of August. And how long will it take them 16 t o review that? And then how long will it take to 17 w rite the NOPR? And then will the NOPR be out for 18 c omment, for how long, and then how long will it take 19 f or the final rule? 20 So if we could walk through that, and we have 21 s ome pretty good assurances that those dates will be 22 m et, then maybe we can give you some pretty good

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 a ssurance of when we can meet our dates. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So how fast -- ASRAC already 3 h as a meeting scheduled, right, for -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's in the middle of 5 S eptember, likely. We have got the week picked out; we 6 j ust don't have the final date. But it's likely the 7 s econd week in September. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So that's when ASRAC would 9 v ote. 10 MS. MEYERS: So I'm just going to -- so 9/15, 11 j ust for -- to plot this out. So they would vote on 12 9 /15. So assuming it's approved, how long before the 13 N OPR is in the Federal Register? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it depends; right? One is 15 t he AEDM rule is separate and can go -- ASRAC has 16 a lready voted on that. That's done. It's cleared. 17 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the NOPR is being drafted. 19 MS. MEYERS: You've got to give us some 20 a ssurances, so we can give your -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you're picking the date 22 f rom the final rule, so I fail to see why it matters.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 MS. MEYERS: Well, you know, it does matter 2 b ecause we have to -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't change anything. 4 Y our clock doesn't start until the final rule is done. 5 MS. BARHYDT: You are arguing that you can't 6 t ake actions until you have a final rule, so -- 7 MS. MEYERS: No, I'm not. I'm trying to give 8 y ou a date, but it -- there is a planning cycle that we 9 a ll go through, and that we have to budget for, and 10 t hat we have -- you know, all of our companies have 11 p roject timelines and resources that we have to 12 s chedule. 13 If something like this comes out in -- way 14 p ast time, way past the budget process, and I can't get 15 r esources to devote on it, I'm going to need more time. 16 S o for my planning -- I'm speaking for Rheem here -- 17 I 've got to kind of figure out this timeline, because 18 I 've got to be able to figure out, so I can give you an 19 a nswer. 20 So if -- you know, so I need a little bit of 21 d ates, so we can figure out how this would work into 22 o ur business, plus with all of the other stuff that we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 h ave going on and when that stuff is due. So there is 2 l ots of other DOE things that are happening, and we 3 h ave deadlines on those. 4 So I've got to figure out how I can work this 5 i n, because if it's going to fall in the middle of when 6 I have to have all my products ready for regional 7 s tandards or for residential water heaters or something 8 l ike that, it is going to affect when I can comply or 9 w hen I have to have the standby power or any of these 10 o ther issues that we have. 11 So if it's falling within those, it is going 12 t o affect my ability -- if I had nothing else to do, I 13 w ould -- you know, could get on it really quick, but 14 t hat's not where we're at. So that's why for me it's 15 i mportant that I can figure out how we're going to plan 16 t his. 17 MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey, and if I 18 c ould just add to that from a slightly different 19 p erspective. I am interested in the date the cake is 20 b aked, that everything is online, the new system is 21 a live and working. I think I need to understand this 22 t imeline, including whatever delay loops OMB can throw,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 b ecause for me what -- I really start my timing from 2 t he publication of the NOPR, because at that point the 3 w orld is aware that this is happening, and will start 4 t o pay attention and start to think about what it means 5 f or their company. 6 So from that perspective, in terms of wanting 7 t he earliest possible completion of this CCV -- what is 8 i t? CC -- yeah, the process, I think this timeline is 9 i mportant. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So is the biggest issue the 11 A EDM rule? 12 MS. MEYERS: It's not the biggest, but it is 13 t he initial piece that we need. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: December 31st. Assume a 16 D ecember 31st final rule date. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Final rule on AEDM? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You look surprised. I'm 19 r efreshed from maternity leave. I'm ready to go. 20 Game on. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Thirty-day comment period. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty-day comment period.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I'm not 2 s ure that the date really should be what is driving 3 t his, based on what John had said. I mean, the 4 a ssumption that everybody's planning time is not -- is 5 g oing to be the same just doesn't -- I mean, it may 6 w ork for one manufacturer but not for all 7 m anufacturers. 8 John had said, "I need a year plus whatever - 9

- you know, from whatever my plan date was," I think, 10 i f I understood that correctly. So even if we do get 11 t he time, I'm not sure that is going to get it. 12 What seems to be a big factor in this, in 13 d elaying this, if I am understanding it correctly, is 14 w e just defined what is included and what is excluded 15 f or some of the product types. But that was not 16 c hanged significantly for water boilers, for water 17 h eaters. And it makes sense that we should be able to 18 c ome up with a shorter period of time for those 19 p roducts. And maybe we can just -- would it be safe, 20 a nd we don't even have to go through all of this 21 r igmarole, that for the products where we did create 22 e xclusions, where we did change definitions, that we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 g ive them the 18 months and just move forward and we 2 c an limit the discussion of a shorter time period to 3 t he products -- my products? 4 The ones that didn't change in scope and 5 d efinition. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Along 7 t hose same lines, I think if we want a fast answer 8 t oday it is probably going to be around 18 months. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we are pushing 10 f or an answer today. Right? I think we are asking 11 y ou, how long do you need to talk to your companies and 12 c ome back with what you want the Department to 13 c onsider? This is really -- you guys have asked for 14 t he extension or consideration of the extension, so we 15 a re asking. 16 Tim's point was, I want to see some type of 17 p rogress. If some things take 18 months, they take 18 18 m onths. But along those lines, I want to see some type 19 o f progress that the 18 months is going to be just 18 20 m onths this time. I think I'm paraphrasing for him, 21 b ut hopefully I got it more or less right. 22 So, I mean, I think that's the question for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 y ou guys. I mean, what is it -- what products can be 2 d one quickly? How quickly can they be done? If some 3 t hings take 18 months, like the PDF, or planning 4 c ycles, take the next week or two, you see the 5 p roposals, I told you December 31st date. Assume a 6 D ecember 31st date for AEDMs, and then come back with 7 w hat we really should consider. If it's 18 months, why 8 i s it 18 months? If there is something you are willing 9 t o do in 10 months or 12 months or step-wise, with 10 d ifferent products at different times, what is it? 11 MR. STEPHENS: My concern is that we might -- 12 I don't want to sidetrack all of the good progress 13 w e've made here by this date, when we will have 14 o pportunity to reply in the NOPR with more detailed 15 i nformation that would, by default, give all of the 16 m anufacturers time to do that exact same thing. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so you -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: We have to propose something in 19 t he NOPR. Otherwise, we start back with another 20 p roposal. So there is no real benefit there. 21 MR. STEPHENS: That's my point. If we 22 p roposed 18 months in the NOPR, and then we are all

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 h ere, we can all start work on it, that way we will 2 h ave plenty of time to actually have more detailed, 3 r esponsive, and accurate answers, to provide back to 4 t he Department in -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Something tells me we are not 6 g oing to get comments that say, "I can do it in eight 7 m onths, DOE. Please revise your proposal." 8 Just saying. 9 MR. STEPHENS: There are always outliers. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: However, if I went with 11 " Let's propose eight months," I am pretty sure I'll get 12 c omments. 13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly, AAON. How many 14 N OPRs are you looking at out of this process? Are we 15 l ooking at -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Two. One for AEDM and one for 17 a ll of the rest of it. 18 MR. FLY: All the rest of it. And all the 19 r est of it includes the date? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 22 MR. FLY: Okay. So not a separate rulemaking

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 o n the date. Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The final rule has to be -- 3 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 4 Y ou know, what I ended up hearing is sounded like most 5 o f the manufacturers here individually know with inside 6 o f a week kind of what they can tell you. It sounds 7 l ike AHRI would need more time than that if they want 8 t o survey absolutely every single customer or every 9 p erson in their trade association. But it seems like 10 w ithin a week we would have a pretty good 11 r epresentative sample. And then if AHRI is able to 12 p rovide more information in the interim between that 13 a nd the 22nd meeting, it seems like we are in a pretty 14 g ood situation for understanding what the -- 15 MR. EISNER: And are you comfortable that 16 w hat you would provide would be representative of the 17 e ntire industry? Not exactly the same, but 18 r epresentative of different kinds of companies? 19 MR. STARR: Well, no, what I'm suggesting is 20 t hat the people at this table are supposed to be 21 r epresentative of the thing. So, in theory, if they've 22 d one a good job in selecting them, then you've got a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 r epresentative sample. Then, AHRI, in theory, 2 r epresents their group. Theirs would also be a 3 r epresentative sample as well. 4 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. But I 5 c an tell you for a fact not everybody is on the same 6 p age. So it is going to take time for people to bring 7 e verybody on the same page. And I'm telling you, from 8 A HRI, it is going to be all over the map. That's why 9 w e came up with this 18 months previously, because we 10 f elt that it was an overall timeframe that would 11 s atisfy the majority of our members. 12 Again, I mean, maybe some are ready to do it 13 f aster, and that's fine. That is maybe why you maybe 14 s hould encourage people to file as soon as they can. 15 B ut at least give these 18 months as a deadline for 16 e verything to be on the database. 17 MR. STARR: I seems like, though, you could 18 d o a representative sample of your groups. You know, 19 y ou've got small members, you've got large members. 20 Y ou can get some kind of representative sample, so you 21 d on't really have to get everybody's input. You can 22 t ake an in-depth look at certain manufacturers in your

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 g roup and kind of come up with something faster. 2 MS. MEYERS: When the final rule is issued, 3 w ill it include, as part of that document, all of the 4 f orms and everything that manufacturers need to comply? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: When the certification final 6 r ule -- so one of the things, it is going to depend, 7 r ight, if you guys decide to certify yourselves or 8 c ertify through a third party. The forms are largely 9 a vailable now. You guys didn't change the 10 c ertification requirements that much. You know, 90 11 p ercent of it is there. You are not going to -- you 12 m ay see a column difference. But if you want to know 13 w hat they look like download the one tonight and look 14 a t it. They're all there for your products. They're 15 a vailable. 16 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'll 17 s ay that I would agree -- at least for my company, we 18 c ould come back at next week's meeting with a date for 19 e verything. I think that's reasonable, acceptable. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the purpose of this 21 w orking group, right? I mean, if each of your 22 c ompanies are -- everyone has different ideas, let's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 d iscuss them. I mean, that's the whole -- let's come 2 o ut with the different ideas. Let's discuss them and 3 s ee if we can reach some type of consensus which 4 e veryone is comfortable with. I don't think it 5 r equires polling members through AHRI, coming up with a 6 c onsensus there, and then coming back here. I mean, 7 p art of this negotiation is to come up with what you 8 c an do for your company. 9 I think that's all we're asking -- go back 10 a nd see what you can do, how these relate to your 11 c ompanies, and let's come back to the table and discuss 12 t hem. If you can do that in a week, great, we'll hold 13 m eetings next week. If we can't, then we have to wait 14 l onger. But the clock is running short because the 15 A SRAC meeting is going to be set for the middle of 16 S eptember. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. We are 18 o bligated to represent those that are not around the 19 t able, though. So it is not just what we can do. It's 20 w hat we know that -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: And they are welcome to 22 p articipate.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 MR. MYERS: -- others can do. 2 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I can 3 t ell you what we have done so far. At the end of -- 4 w hen the first sort of interim report went out to 5 A SRAC, I took that and made a presentation to ABMA at 6 t heir summer meeting. So the members -- it was well 7 a ttended because it was at a nice place. 8 So the ABMA membership knows what it is. My 9 c oncern is there are some other sort of outliers that 10 d on't know about it, or, if they do, they don't have 11 t he engineering capability. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we still have to go 13 t hrough a notice and comment period. 14 MR. HALLEY: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Flat out. 16 MR. HALLEY: And so I have taken the liberty 17 o f, you know, taking the ABMA thing and putting it out 18 t o former clients of mine or existing clients. So, you 19 k now, we are trying to expand the knowledge base, if 20 y ou like, on what it is all about. But there are also 21 s ome small companies who don't really have the 22 e ngineering capability to produce this.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 You know, they have already got an alligator 2 i n swamp situation with their existing business, and 3 t hen they get this put on top of them. And they've 4 p robably got to put it out to somebody to do it for 5 t hem. And there are not too many people around that 6 a re capable of doing it. You know, I've had two people 7 c ome to me, and I'm not going to do it, basically, 8 b ecause I think I'll have a conflict of interest at 9 s ome point. 10 MR. EISNER: That's one thing to consider 11 w hen you are talking about what is possible is whether 12 c ertain segments, because of their size or some other 13 r eason, can't comply in 12 months or 18 months and they 14 n eed more time, as well as whether some people can get 15 p art of it done earlier and part of it done later to 16 g ive them the flexibility -- all of you the flexibility 17 t o say, would it be better to do one-third every six or 18 e ight or 12 months than to try to do everything in 18 19 m onths? 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm moved to 21 c omment on a couple of things that have been said. One 22 o f them is, Louis, with all due respect, I don't think

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 w e are representative at this table. This is 2 p redominantly companies that have shown an active 3 i nterest in this process, for business reasons or 4 o therwise. And there are a lot of companies that have, 5 f or a lot of reasons, not been engaged. They, we hope, 6 w ill become engaged with the publication of the NOPR. 7 But, Karim, again, with great respect, your 8 j ob as a trade association is to represent the lowest 9 c ommon denominator. There are going to be people who 10 a re going to need waivers, whether small companies or 11 w hatever, and I don't think this rulemaking can be 12 a ddressed to the least capable, but to what industry 13 c an do to get us launched into an era where things will 14 b e easier once we get over this hump. 15 And it's not at all clear to me that we can't 16 w ork out something, whether it's different groups 17 c oming in earlier, or progress reports. Certainly, Tim 18 h as made some suggestions. But I'm not comfortable 19 w ith the idea that because the least among us will need 20 1 8 months and then an extension that 18 months is the 21 r ight number for everything we're doing. 22 MS. MEYERS: So if we selected a date earlier

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 t han 18 months -- Laura, this is primarily for you -- 2 w ould it be possible for the DOE then to agree not to 3 d o verification enforcement testing for, say, 18 4 m onths? So the people that have -- I mean, the people 5 t hat want the data can get the data, but it also gives 6 t ime for manufacturers like, you know, oops, this might 7 b e -- you know, maybe at month 13, I need to adjust it 8 b ecause it gives me time to go and verify my numbers, 9 d o the additional testing, due diligence, and 10 e verything else. Just a thought. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So you did catch me in a side 12 b ar and I missed the very beginning part of what you 13 s aid. 14 MS. MEYERS: So if we agreed on a date 15 e arlier than 18 months -- that's a big if -- would it - 16

- could the Department say you have to have your data 17 s ubmitted within -- let's just pick 12 as an example. 18 B ut the Department will not do any verification or 19 e nforcement testing until 18 months. 20 So the people that want the data to do 21 a nalysis, they have something. It may not be as good 22 a s it would have been if we had given everyone 18

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 m onths to do all of that additional verification 2 t esting. But they've got six months in there to kind 3 o f do that before they have to worry about any 4 p otential penalties coming against them. 5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm not sure I 6 a gree, but that's the kind of creative suggestion for 7 b reaking the jam that I have been asking for. 8 MR. SACHS: 9 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. That sounds like -- 10 o kay to me. The only caveat is I guess DOE should have 11 t he ability to enforce for the failure to certify. So 12 y ou could just leave products out. That doesn't 13 r equire testing. That's different, to my mind, then -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: So I was actually going to 15 s uggest the opposite. Everything needs to be certified 16 s ay within 12 months. But DOE won't be issuing any 17 c ivil penalties for any issues therein, so that you 18 h ave time to go back through, scrub it, make sure that 19 y ou're comfortable with everything for six months. 20 Well, it's not the same as saying we're not 21 g oing to do any assessment testing. But basically we 22 a re not going to enforce your ratings during that six-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 m onth period. 2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Basically, 3 y ou are saying if it doesn't meet DOE minimums, it 4 c ould be enforceable. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Yeah. 6 MR. EISNER: Sort of like a learning period 7 w here you work with industry and where they may have 8 m ade a mistake. 9 MS. BARHYDT: And then -- and I can tell you 10 f rom experiences with other industries, there is a 11 l earning curve, and there is often a lot of back and 12 f orth of, did you mean to say this? And asking a lot 13 o f questions. So, and that gives us all six months to 14 f igure out that everything in there is what is really 15 i ntended to be in there. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. You 17 a re saying that with the exception of meeting the 18 m inimum allowed, if we got something in in 12 months 19 t hat in the additional six months we found needed to be 20 c hanged, we could make those changes. There would be 21 n o penalty, no enforcement action. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 MR. MYERS: Okay. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And we could still give 18 3 m onths on the PDFs. That saved my question. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to have PDF 5 t raining next -- 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 7 t hink what you'd see is a lot of unscrupulous people, 8 c ompanies, that would -- there is the possibility with 9 d oing that that some manufacturers that are borderline 10 w ith reaching efficiency levels where rebates are 11 i nvolved would bump their product up, even if it's just 12 f or six months, to make a difference in their 13 f inancials. 14 MR. EISNER: One thing the agency could do is 15 c hange that to "no intentional violations, would they 16 w aive enforcement"? 17 MR. STEPHENS: How would you prove intention? 18 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's why we have lawyers. 19 MR. EISNER: And if you go out and you find 20 o ut they kept double sets of records and things like 21 t hat? 22 MS. BARHYTE: Yeah. You can prove willful.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I mean, we do have AHRI 2 c ertification data now. So I think, to the extent that 3 y ou see that unscrupulous behavior, I think -- 4 o bviously, you can make up new basic models, but, you 5 k now, I think we would be okay with that. 6 MR. EISNER: These are the kinds of things 7 t hat I would encourage you to think about. What you 8 h ear around the table are views of people who are 9 s aying you need to show progress before 18 months, and 10 t hen you see other people saying it's going to be very 11 h ard to do it in 18 months. 12 So you need to see if there are ways that you 13 c an have different packages put together where no 14 e nforcement for six months, that's the standard, but 15 m aybe certain people with really bad situations could 16 g et waivers. Maybe small businesses get waivers. 17 M aybe somebody could get credit for doing it even 18 e arlier than 12 months, so they could use it to get a 19 l ittle more time with other products. 20 These are all the things you've got to think 21 a bout whether you can come up with to help DOE come up 22 w ith something that is fair to just about -- or a great

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 p ercentage of the industry. Maybe they can't be fair 2 t o everybody, or let them think they're being fair, but 3 t here are various things they probably can combine if 4 y ou convince them they're reasonable. 5 MR. AMRANE: Question to Laura. This is 6 K arim with AHRI. When is the -- when does the clock 7 s tart, the 18 -- the 12 months or the -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Today? 9 No, I'm kidding. 10 MR. MYERS: I nominate January 1, 2014, since 11 t he -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: As the due date? 13 MR. MYERS: As the start of the clock date. 14 MR. AMRANE: Assuming there is a final rule. 15 MR. MYERS: Yeah. Assuming there is a final 16 r ule then. 17 MS. BARHYDT: No. I was thinking the 18 p ublication of the final rule. 19 MR. AMRANE: Which final rule? 20 MS. BARHYDT: The AEDM final rule. 21 MR. MYERS: Okay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So it gives you one more

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 d ay. 2 MR. FLY: Mark Fly when AAON. When do we 3 a nticipate the final rule on the rest of this? Because 4 t hat defines what the basic models are. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it -- most of 6 t he basic model stuff is going to be through guidance. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that is not going to be 9 h eld up in the rule. 10 MS. BARHYDT: But they did have some -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: But some of the stuff, yes. 12 I mean, that one is harder to estimate. 13 MR. FLY: But I mean, that rule is going to 14 h ave to come before December 31st because that has the 15 d ate in it, right? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: When are we going to get a 17 n egotiated package to ASRAC? 18 MR. FLY: Yeah. Assuming that we get that 19 n egotiated -- okay. But I -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think the date 21 t hing is -- we are going to try to get -- we understand 22 t he importance. We are going to try to get it. But we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 c an talk about dates all day, seriously. 2 MR. FLY: The other thing that I am a little 3 c oncerned about is if any of the other rulemaking, 4 p articularly the IEER rulemaking, lands in the middle 5 o f this -- well, I want to talk about it. We're going 6 t o have to have serious talks about the date on that, 7 b ecause we are going to be -- I mean, I foresee me 8 s hutting down product development for a year almost. 9 I 'm going to be really unpopular at my company. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Along that line, I would 11 r ecommend that we maintain our current schedule and 12 e ach of us work on this in parallel to making progress 13 a s we have laid out here, so that we don't jeopardize 14 h aving the report ready for ASRAC on the schedule we 15 a lready have. 16 MR. EISNER: We have a number of different 17 i ssues we have to conclude. We are not -- we've got 18 v erification. I thought there were some things on the 19 s chedule beyond that. Okay. 20 I mean, the current calendar has the list of 21 i tems. If we want to quickly look at them first, we 22 a re talking about verification, accreditation process,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 i ndustry programs, certification testing, build to 2 o rder products; verification and laboratory 3 a ccreditation, certification testing, build to order 4 p roducts. August 7th we're talking about enforcement 5 p rocess, witness testing, laboratory requirements, the 6 t olerances. 7 MS. BARHYDT: I think most of that is going 8 t o end up being all rolled into this last subject area. 9 MR. EISNER: How many hours or days do you 10 t hink we need for this last issue? 11 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know. Let's see how it 12 g oes. 13 MR. EISNER: All right. 14 MS. BARHYDT: We can start now. We have 40 15 m ore minutes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no. Don't get excited. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I 18 w onder just in looking around the room at the other 19 m anufacturers if we would like to take the time between 20 n ow and 6:00 as a group, if we could borrow this room 21 f or that period of time, to discuss what has been 22 t alked about and what we might be able to do. We have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 h ad some interesting ideas put out on the table and -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that. 3 MR. MYERS: -- then perhaps in the morning we 4 c ould provide at least a little bit more clear picture 5 a s to where things are headed. 6 MS. BARHYDT: It's up to you guys. 7 MR. MYERS: Is there interest in doing that? 8 I 'm asking the other manufacturers around the room. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, to the extent you 10 w ant to take the room tomorrow, I mean, that's -- this 11 i s kind of up to you guys. If there are issues that 12 y ou want to use the room for instead of starting 13 v erification tomorrow, and we'll start up verification 14 a t the next -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: You all could start at 8:00, 16 a nd I could get here later. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I'm just saying, 18 w hile you're all here, if it helps to have some face19 t o-face time with each other without DOE in the room, 20 w e could remove ourselves from tomorrow, you could work 21 o n whatever you need to work on, and we could start 22 v erification at the next set of meetings.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I think we 2 c an probably have, to the extent it is possible for us, 3 t hese discussions this afternoon, the remaining 35 or 4 4 0 minutes. And then we can use the first part of the 5 m eeting tomorrow to talk about it. 6 Now, if at the conclusion of today's 7 d iscussion we feel like we need more time, then perhaps 8 w e'd let you guys know we'd like to take the first 9 l ittle bit of the meeting tomorrow. But I don't think 10 w e are going to need a lot of time to basically just 11 t alk about the kinds of things that have been discussed 12 h ere. And I'd hate to take a whole day away from the 13 o ther important topics we need to discuss. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Is everybody in agreement 15 w ith that? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Do you want to put in a 17 p laceholder for an hour tomorrow, just to be sure, or 18 n o, you don't? 19 MR. HON: This is Charlie. I think we would 20 b e well-advised to take two hours for tomorrow, start 21 i t at 10:00, because it is already 5:25. That means 22 t his room has to be cleared in 35 minutes. There's not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 g oing to be a lot of discussion this afternoon. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Frank, what we're 3 d iscussing is, you know, give you the rest of today 4 p lus an hour or two in the morning to continue on. 5 MR. MYERS: If others think that's needed, 6 t hen I don't want to constrict any good ideas from 7 c oming out. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. I 9 t hink if we have a little bit of time the rest of the 10 d ay today to just kind of talk among ourselves and 11 t hrow out some ideas, I don't know that a lot of extra 12 t ime tomorrow is going to help that much, because then 13 I need to go back and talk to my folks. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 15 MR. WHITWELL: And get their input on that, 16 a nd, you know, rather than talk more among ourselves 17 h ere. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I'd suggest I run out the 19 d oor really quick so you have 30 minutes. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. I think that would be 21 b etter, and we could get to our stuff -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: 8:00 in the morning, then;

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 r ight? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 3 (Whereupon, at 5:23 p.m., the proceedings in 4 the above-entitled matter were concluded.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, LINDA METCALF, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken,

_ do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

# ~\ 

# c1 L 

# I)J/LdCCtP L INDA METCALF**~** 

# b Digital Court Reporter

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalRepoJ;tingCompany.com 

### © 2013

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not 3 t he Court Reporter who reported the following 4 p roceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 5 p roceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 6 r ecordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 7 t rue, correct and complete transcription of said 8 p roceeding. 9 10 11 12

_ ______________ ________________________ 13 D ate LISA SIKES Transcriptionist 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013 Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 1 15:12 16:2 172:9 177:5 250:10 1,000 100:7 1,000-gallon 97:21 99:3 1.5 144:9 146:8 10 17:22 18:3 28:20 30:1 35:13,17 36:5 51:22 52:4,7,21 53:11 56:3 89:10 97:9 106:4 141:14,21 143:11,16,21 144:7,8 146:1,4,5 147:7,13 149:12 150:19 153:19 154:12 155:4,10 156:11,16 161:1 171:13 201:13 236:9 10:00 255:21 10:09 1:12 100 109:10 200:15 1000 1:7 10-minute 57:22 11 58:9 115 27:16 12 58:10 164:11 166:18,19,22 167:11 172:20 174:13 177:18 178:14 182:1 186:6 187:11 188:7,11 204:15,17 207:13 236:9 243:13,18 245:17 246:16 247:18 249:18 250:7 12.12 52:14 120 102:17 127 128:18 129:5,22 13 58:10 245:7 130 102:3,8 135 99:1 144:21 14 35:2 140 80:7,13,21 82:14 83:2,17 84:5 85:16 86:8,18,20 87:2,17 88:10,14,15,18 89:5 90:15 97:3 98:10,12,22 99:14 100:4,9 101:10 102:18,21 103:5,13 105:17 106:6 107:19 141:11 149:9 151:15 140-gallon 82:2 141 97:7,9 145 99:1 15 28:21,22 35:14,17 36:5 178:16 193:14 150 85:14,15 150-gallon 90:21 99:16 168 86:6,7 17 34:1,3 35:1 121:14,20,22 122:1 227:21 17-1/2 179:11

18 164:7,10,13,17 165:13,22 166:19,22 167:11 168:1 172:17 173:22 174:14 176:21 177:7,18 179:4,7,14 180:5 185:10 186:6 187:12 188:7,12 191:5,21 196:12,20,21 197:6,15,22 198:2 199:10 200:22 204:15,18 206:12 207:17,20,21,22 208:7 210:19 212:20 215:15,21 216:9,13,15 217:8 227:2 228:9 235:1,8,17,19 236:3,7,8,22 239:9,15 243:13,18 244:20 245:1,3,15,19,22 248:2 249:9,11 250:7 18-month 176:22 178:15 199 102:8,13 199,000 102:8,16 2 2 34:13 2,300 95:13 2:00 122:20 20 27:13,14 30:2

20/21 213:14 200 54:19,20,21 200,000 145:8 2006 177:1,5 2007 129:8 130:5 170:16 200-gallon 88:16 100:8 2012 130:6 2013 1:11 182:4 2014 182:3 250:10 2015 36:21 56:18 172:9 173:5 21st 213:1 22nd 238:13 24 208:1 26 202:8 26th 4:7,14 27th 4:8 3 3.5 144:10 30 53:9 223:21 227:21 256:19 300 218:9 31 1:11 182:3 31st 7:8 48:10 147:5,15 164:2 181:16 182:2 209:3 229:4 233:15,16 236:5,6 251:14 32nd 164:4 34,000 107:10 35 255:3,22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 208:1 4 4,000 150:13 40 103:13 145:7 253:14 255:4 40-gallon 145:6 41,000 95:10 429 56:19 148:18 430 56:15,19 431 56:20,22 43125 56:3 47 121:8,15,16,19,2 2 48 16:17 29:1 36:10 5 5,000 88:16 90:19 5,000-gallon 87:18 98:7 101:13 5:23 257:3 5:25 255:21 50 158:10 500-gallon 88:16 50-gallon 159:13 56 16:17 17:12 29:1 36:10 6 6:00 253:20 60 175:18 65 126:17 139:22 144:21 65,000 125:4,5,14 7 7/31 4:5 70 86:6 740 18:16 75 130:2 7th 4:6 253:4 8 8 52:9 8/01 4:6 8:00 254:15 256:22 80 158:10,11 85.5 53:3 88.6 53:4,5 8th 4:7 9 9/15 230:10,12 90 86:18 221:1 223:15 240:10 90.1 130:7 143:21 91.1 53:18 91.7 52:6 53:13 93.5 52:8 95 27:16 97 200:10 99 25:13 A a.m 1:12 A/C 173:5 203:10 AAON 2:15 6:10 16:15 21:4 26:21 41:17 132:8 165:21 184:15 196:13 237:13

251:2 abilities 104:4 ability 177:22 232:12 246:11 able 11:4 15:16 29:3 42:5 51:4,5 55:21 66:22 75:9 91:12 92:18 93:20 96:9 100:20 104:1 105:12 122:2 166:11 172:19 176:1 194:5 197:14 204:15 207:12,13 214:15 215:19 216:10 221:16 222:5 223:2,3 231:18 234:17 238:11 253:22 ABMA 5:13 9:8 79:7 175:6,9 242:2,5,8,17 above-entitled 257:4 abroad 69:18 absolute 28:3 absolutely 31:11 42:14 150:20 193:13 225:11 238:8 abstain 9:7 108:11 122:12 abstains 57:20 abstentions 8:9 10:5,9 75:2 78:6 79:22 114:14 116:3 120:22 126:22 130:16 131:18 136:1 137:13 139:15

163:4 acceptable 41:2 103:4,11,17 153:14 186:3 208:20 240:19 acceptance 102:11 161:2 accepting 60:15 102:7 188:10 access 156:7 189:3 accessories 224:2 accommodating 12:18 151:14 accommodation 31:2 124:7 accomplish 223:4 accordance 202:21 according 4:4,15 202:6 207:9 accreditation 252:22 253:3 accumulate 205:14 accurate 20:12 28:3 46:11 171:20 202:6 203:9,16 208:22 237:3 258:7 accurately 92:4 accustomed 152:3 ACEEE 5:16 achieve 14:13 acknowledge 31:4 39:18,21 ACMs 35:9 across 85:13

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161:12 186:4 Act 60:11,13 78:12 169:9 action 84:20 247:21 actions 231:6 active 244:2 actively 116:13 activities 172:3,5 activity 191:17 200:16 202:9,10 actual 19:16 89:11 103:7 156:10 183:11 actually 6:21 7:4 9:2 13:4,21 25:11 32:4,6 49:8 56:3 67:14 68:15 71:1 74:12 86:17 94:3 107:8 130:5 133:7 134:8 135:15 137:4 141:2 142:18 143:18 145:5 151:6 163:9 167:1 169:22 170:15 180:16 188:6 190:6 191:14 194:17 197:22 203:22 205:5 212:7 214:4 222:11,21 224:4 237:2 246:14 add 110:17 113:2,14 122:2 127:22 137:19,22 138:2,19 163:15 206:16 207:16 211:21 226:1 232:18

added 124:17 134:18 138:12 adding 116:6 121:16 159:1 addition 127:21 206:17 additional 48:1 51:10 78:13 90:5 127:20 146:2 162:2 175:1 189:3 210:1 245:9 246:1 247:19 address 12:8 48:7 50:20 59:12,13 62:9 63:5,22 68:8,9,20 69:2 74:18 116:16 136:14 175:2 192:21 194:17 addressed 81:19 91:4 244:12 addresses 194:18 addressing 13:6 172:9 adds 176:13 adequate 89:14 125:9 adjust 245:7 adjusting 35:20 adjustment 36:2 adjustments 41:7 administer 74:12 admittedly 86:3 adopted 107:9 adopting 142:12 advanced 104:16 advantage 188:4,15,18 191:11 224:22 adverse 181:5 advertising 146:6 ADVISORY 1:4 AEDM 21:13 29:4 35:19 164:14,19 165:9,14,22 187:14 197:7,14,15 198:11,12,13,15 200:2 203:22 205:16 207:4,9,10 208:12 212:15 215:8,16 216:1 230:15 233:11,17 237:16 250:20 AEDMs 165:18 167:18 171:12,13,18,21 177:16 178:11 196:2,17 197:6,11 199:12,13 202:3 217:15 224:6 228:22 236:6 affect 45:3 157:7 172:13 188:16 232:8,12 affected 173:2,7 196:11 205:8 affecting 37:2 affects 173:7 afraid 106:12 afternoon 255:3 256:1 against 85:2 95:19 210:19 246:4

agency 61:4 248:14 aggregation 45:16 aggressive 180:10 ago 81:1 148:20 176:11 224:8 agreed 12:13 81:2,5 82:3 87:13 109:18 119:2 152:8 153:10 163:9 165:3 166:10,13 167:20 181:22 182:13 201:6 207:10,14 224:1 245:14 agreeing 40:22 55:5 agreement

126:22 146:19 209:3,6 255:14 ahead 7:22 137:7 140:22 162:16 168:5,13 180:13 182:17 216:5 224:21 AHRI 2:7 3:13 6:4 7:6 39:2 40:7 41:10 67:1 71:5 72:3 75:16 85:19 89:16 90:11 92:20 99:4 102:1,11 104:18 106:14 116:17 119:4,20 120:1,15 121:7,22 125:10 127:6,14 139:21 140:4 142:20 153:2 164:12 184:21 193:15

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198:3 202:18,22 204:21 206:2 208:10 209:9 212:2 214:13,19 215:3,6,7 218:8 221:13 225:6,12 238:7,11 239:1,4,8 241:5 249:1 250:6 AHRI's 71:15 218:13 aiming 151:2 air 22:7 40:4 42:6 67:20 75:3 107:5 126:11 127:2 128:20 129:18 130:1 134:7 136:3 171:6,16 176:11,17 177:1 184:21 201:13 203:12 212:12 Air-Conditioning 2:6,11 3:12 air-cooled 115:7 127:15 131:6,8 139:19 airflow 124:12 128:3 133:16 135:12 akin 205:13 albeit 28:2 alive 232:21 alleviate 78:20 Alliance 3:14 5:11 alligator 243:1 allocate 179:16 180:1,2 allow 151:20 allowed 194:5 210:21 247:18 allowing 32:21 allows 18:22 22:18 already 7:12 38:7 77:13,15,16,18 79:17 108:4 110:18 111:13 113:19 114:11 134:14,19 141:20 142:9 148:15 154:10 179:21 187:20 189:15 190:1,15 192:11 198:19 202:15,17,22 203:2,5 206:20 207:15 217:4 226:2 230:2,16 243:1 252:15 255:21 alternate 224:11 alternative 117:22 213:10 am 5:6 13:21 58:15 66:16 70:10 79:2 86:16 94:2 99:5 107:20 122:7 135:10 141:1 146:4,5 178:3 185:21 191:14 194:15 195:9,19,22 204:21 207:12 222:1 228:2 232:19 234:13 237:11 252:2 258:7 259:2 amazing 168:12 amend 70:5 American 3:9 among 155:4 244:19 256:10,16 amount 45:3 107:2 144:2,12 145:19 188:22 201:5 209:21 amplify 100:13 Amrane 2:6 6:4 7:6 41:10,14 92:20 93:9,13,16 116:17 117:1 120:15 121:7,10,13,21 127:6,10,14,20 128:3,7,12,14,16 129:9,12,15,22 130:8,11 139:17,21 140:4,9,12 142:20 153:2 164:12 198:3,8,11,15 206:2 215:6 216:16 217:19 218:9 239:4 250:5,14,19 analogy 107:14 analysis 43:1 46:1,19 204:10 205:14 245:21 angle 6:16 annual 169:13 anomaly 145:2 answer 16:21 69:12 75:9 76:1 80:14 82:5 89:19 154:1 212:3 231:19 235:7,10 answered 84:7 112:19 answers 211:20 237:3

anticipate 251:3 anticipating 30:4 anybody 8:9 9:6,7 50:20 57:4,12 107:10 108:11 118:14 122:11,12 182:11 219:1 anyhow 105:10 107:20 196:2 anymore 45:13 anyone 53:21 54:20 58:7 101:6 108:8 109:8 156:3 anyone's 158:20 anything 11:8 87:8,21 97:3 102:16 103:14,15 109:20 115:4 118:14 130:19 131:5 132:22 140:15 143:19 147:4 149:16 168:1 175:15 196:7 212:1,20 217:20 231:3 anyway 79:16 83:17 114:11 120:19 anywhere 99:19 apparently 175:10 appeals 176:22 appear 73:18,20 APPLIANCE 1:3 applicable 63:22 113:3,14 114:1

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 application 45:12 215:5 applied 29:10 43:2 79:9 applies 67:4 99:13 140:5 apply 10:19 17:15 96:13,14 175:10 applying 41:18 43:16 44:16 63:2 88:10,14,17 appreciate 105:20 119:11 145:4 186:20 224:2 appreciates 195:15 approach 16:1 37:11,18 149:21 228:4 appropriate 21:9 88:19 100:2 106:20 164:16 approval 175:9 approved 175:11 223:5,11 228:22 230:12 arbitrarily 144:6 area 253:8 areas 106:3 154:11 171:11 arena 172:8 aren't 4:16 17:13 18:7 28:11 74:7 169:17 180:14 184:21,22 197:13 217:7 218:13,22 220:16,18 arguing 231:5 argument 144:17 177:19 189:11 ARI 21:8 23:14 46:18 Aris 3:4 6:7 Armstrong 2:8 4:20 7:9 9:17 10:3,17 12:9,22 28:9 30:16,20 32:10 37:20 38:2,14,17 39:12,17,20 40:2,8 46:22 47:4,20 48:8 54:12,16 56:21 66:13 69:9,12,22 74:5 75:5,19,21 76:8,18,22 77:2,11,20 78:2,4,16 79:1,10,13,19 80:14,22 81:18 82:19 83:18 84:6,15 85:3,11 87:9,13 88:2 89:16,19,21 90:1 93:2,12,14 94:6 95:1,21 103:3,11 105:16 109:9,16 110:7,10,16,19,2 1 111:4,11 112:7,11,15,18,2 1 113:6,10,15,22 114:9,19,21 115:2,6,13,15 116:13,22 118:16 119:9,17,22 120:7,11,18 121:3,9 123:13 126:6,13,15 127:4,8,11,18 128:2,4,11,13,15 129:2,11,13,16,2 0 131:3,14,19 132:2,6,12,17,22 133:4,9,14,16,20 134:4,14,18 135:2,8,15,19,21 136:3 137:7,21 138:3,6,8,13,16, 22 139:5,7,10,13,18 140:2,7,10,13 141:15,18 142:8 143:1,8,15 144:16 145:10 147:2 148:3,9,11,18,22 149:4,7,9,14,18 150:2,7,12,16,20 151:17 152:6,20 153:5,15 160:9,19 161:8,12,15,17,2 0 162:8 163:6,17 164:1 165:2,10,15,19 166:5 181:7,11,18 182:4,7,9 190:19 199:8 216:4 226:8,10,13,18,2 2 227:18,22 228:16 230:4,14,18,21 231:3 233:15,18,22 235:9 236:17 237:5,10,20 238:2 240:5,20 241:21 242:12,15 248:18 251:5,8,11,16,20 253:16 254:9,17 articulate 140:14 articulating 82:9 Ashley 2:8 6:18 110:1 127:4 132:9 135:5 137:15 142:15,21 143:10 147:15 149:20 152:15 162:1 Ashley's 165:1 ASHRAE 86:18 130:4,7 143:20 146:17 aside 81:4 114:19 215:2 ASME 102:14,15 as-needed 116:19 aspect 183:19 ASRAC 109:3 129:3,5,9 219:13,14 228:22 229:14 230:2,8,15 241:15 242:5 251:17 252:14 assembled 69:20 assembles 69:21 assembly 101:15 assessing 191:18 assessment 191:3 246:21 assign 223:4 assistance 115:3 associated 66:4 169:18 205:12 association 238:9 244:8 associations 210:15

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 packages 249:13 page 34:8 115:8 124:2,3 137:17,19,21 138:1,11,12 239:6,7 paid 45:10 paper 222:12 paradigm 204:12 parallel 110:13 196:15 252:12 parameter

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 phase 170:7 200:21 phased 228:3 phased-in 229:9 phase-ins 170:4 Phillip 3:15 6:3 78:9 94:22 97:2 108:16 131:20 143:3 146:11 164:18 165:7 168:6 178:9 196:6 204:11 215:1 224:19 235:6 248:6 phone 8:21 109:18 120:8 222:1 phrase 66:1 88:12 103:9 physics 27:4 pick 48:13 94:13 245:17 picked 21:19 86:19 99:7 126:8 230:5 picking 12:17 230:21 picture 254:4 piece 39:4 44:18 70:6 233:13 pieces 40:16 105:14 216:9 229:2 piling 123:20 pill 122:4,5 pilot 105:5 pipeway 142:10 placeholder 255:17 plan 19:9 91:13 117:11 179:22 187:6 193:4 222:21 232:15 234:9 planned 179:21 planning 179:16,17 223:13,17 231:8,16 234:4 236:3 plans 176:18 plate 38:3 172:3 plates 37:21 platform 33:7 play 199:3 219:6 plays 145:16 please 8:22 52:9 103:10 125:2 131:1 133:22 141:21 148:2 154:17 162:20 237:7 plenty 237:2 plot 230:11 plus 87:18 94:6 97:7,9 98:5 179:22 231:22 234:8 256:4 point 7:8 25:6 34:20 38:10,11 46:6 60:10 78:16 84:3 91:2 93:7 95:2 97:4 100:13 101:14 103:22 121:20 122:8 124:13 128:8 136:10 142:11 143:4,13 144:1,2 146:9,12 147:7 149:17,19 151:15 153:9 157:18,20 167:19 174:10 175:7,8 188:11 190:2,11 195:20 199:9,17,20,22 209:8 210:6 212:20 221:8,19 225:20 228:13,17 233:2 235:16 236:21 243:9 pointed 178:11 points 35:15 89:2 90:5 97:3 123:8 135:12 155:7 228:5 pole 29:1 52:15 55:2,7,12 215:3 poles 16:8,10 18:1 policing 60:8 policy 60:7 poll 225:13 polling 241:5 poor 208:4 port 71:1 portion 44:13 pose 49:9 112:8 position 11:20 40:11 60:15 61:8 72:16 167:1 197:13 226:15 positions 11:19 positive 48:18 50:17 109:4 possibilities 48:6 possibility 42:3 100:16 170:4 175:2 180:18

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 removing 141:2 repeat 28:14 42:18 71:6 103:10 replaced 46:7 reply 236:14 report 65:10,17 90:7 106:13 111:2,8,10 147:16 151:21 156:3 191:4 213:6 229:14 242:4 252:14 reported 1:16 210:2 259:3 reporter 5:1,3 6:16 9:1 258:1,2,15 259:3 Reporter's 259:5 reporting 1:17 65:5 106:8,13,20 116:6 154:4,12,19 155:7,15 166:2 174:11 194:12 209:20 reports 193:18 244:17 represent 35:1,22 97:19 218:3 220:12 221:7 241:18 244:8 representation 93:7 217:11 220:8 representations 20:11 46:9 83:6 113:11 representative 25:11 214:19 238:11,16,18,21 239:1,3,18,20 244:1 represented 32:14 representing 181:3 217:13 220:11,17 represents 184:19 239:2 reprieve 191:9 reproduce 41:19 request 9:22 60:11,14 111:3 189:7 requesting 127:7 require 24:3 45:2 90:7 97:15 113:3 115:8 132:1 149:16 192:4 197:1 201:3 204:1 205:10 246:13 required 40:18 51:21 52:7 65:16 71:21 81:15,17 82:13 83:20 87:16,21 89:3,22 90:3 118:10 124:4 140:11 142:4 146:22 147:2,16 151:21 152:13 154:6 177:7 199:15 201:6 222:13 requirement 40:5 71:12 81:21 82:6 86:12,14 87:2,6 97:12 99:7,20 100:2 117:18 121:21 125:15 140:1 144:15 153:3 157:21 158:7 159:20 160:1 169:14 201:10 requirements 22:7 24:16 37:7 38:3,21 39:9 52:13,15,18 60:1 81:16 83:3,4,8,12,14,1 6 89:15 102:3,6,16,20 105:4,15 116:6,9 138:4 146:2 156:22 166:2 167:19 170:14 174:17 178:10 193:3 194:19 198:16 204:8 215:8,17 223:12 228:21 229:9 240:10 253:5 requires 241:5 requiring 106:8 198:6 rerate 204:22 rerated 205:1,5 research 91:22 residential 59:20 67:3 75:22 95:22 96:3,6,18 107:5 126:8,10 150:6 169:13 172:7 173:4 176:11 200:12 204:22 205:1,5,8 232:7 resolution 117:5 resolve 161:7 227:7,8 resolved 186:21 resource 176:14,18

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 retrofit 91:21 return 130:3 revert 154:19 review 225:19 229:16 revise 142:21 237:7 revisit 108:17 226:10 rev-level 117:18 rewriting 32:5 Rheem 2:21 3:6 5:15 6:12 8:1 19:3,15 31:13 42:20 44:10 57:15 84:13 88:20 108:9 142:6 172:22 231:16 rigid 151:16 rigidity 82:16 rigmarole 234:21 Rivest 3:8 14:1,2 16:7,13,21 17:6,11,19 20:8 22:2,6,10,14,20 23:1,5,12,16,18 24:2,9,18 25:3,8,17,19 26:2,7,9,15,18 27:3,17,20 28:14,15 29:11,14,19 31:11,21 36:6,16 37:5 42:8,12,18 43:18,21 44:4,6,9,20 45:14 46:5,21 47:2,5,10,12 51:10,13,16 54:4,7,10,18 55:9,19 56:6,12 Robert 3:18 role 219:6 rolled 253:8 rolling 172:19 Ron 6:22 110:1 Ronald 3:11 roof 46:4 rooftop 23:18,20 rooftops 23:2 room 4:16 5:3 75:7 127:2 136:9 173:7 184:18,19 207:16 215:9 217:10 219:4,5 221:21 253:18,20 254:8,10,12,19 255:22 routinely 33:8 94:1 row 53:17 rub 121:18 rule 38:4 39:4 44:1 49:3 83:11 88:4,7 142:16,17,18,22 143:1 148:19 149:3 164:14,15,19 165:9,20 166:1 168:1,17 173:15,19 174:17,19,21 175:3 176:17 181:8 182:4 185:2 187:12 192:11,15,16 197:6,15 198:4,6 199:10,21,22

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 saw 32:5 71:13 176:21 199:11 scale 17:3 55:14 scaler 15:16 55:4 scalers 37:9 scales 176:8 SCFM 128:3,16 schedule 4:3,11,16 166:16 180:10 231:12 252:11,14,19 scheduled 4:7 213:1,14,15,19 230:3 scheduling 222:14 scheme 94:8 scope 126:9 185:12 235:4 scramble 117:9 screen 51:1 68:15 82:12 scroll 53:12 54:18 scrub 246:18 seal 12:13 sealed 12:15 search 63:18 Sears 67:6,8,9 seats 122:22 second 81:19 82:1 87:10 89:2 97:4 110:2 114:7 115:8 137:19,21 150:3 160:12,22 161:16 162:2 170:5 230:7 second-to-the-last 110:4 section 110:4,6

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 short-term 210:8 shown 63:9 89:3 123:11 244:2 shutting 252:8 shy 199:5 sidetrack 236:12 significant 144:5 156:12 169:17 185:17 significantly 199:16 234:16 SIKES 259:2,13 similar 17:1 54:8 67:17 123:7 166:9 191:6 215:4 simple 33:16 55:4 210:16 217:3 simplified 29:12 simply 15:16 26:10 30:10 31:22 68:4 76:4 98:6 213:11 214:2 simulation 171:19 206:10 simulations 201:16,17 203:15 simultaneous 176:17 single 173:8 201:3 222:2,3 225:13 226:6 238:8 sit 220:22 sit-down 214:4 site 4:4 125:12 sitting 181:3 182:22 184:10 185:18 221:21 225:5 situation 14:11 17:20 21:3 25:19 92:10 97:5 146:21 196:10 225:2 238:14 243:2 situations 216:7 249:15 six 29:1 55:12 142:12 144:14 166:19,20,22 170:5 179:8,19 183:1 191:9 193:8 210:2,19 215:14 216:3,12 217:1 243:17 246:2,19,22 247:13,19 248:12 249:14 size 28:6 46:3 95:18 120:17 157:3 158:2 177:22 184:5,9 210:19 243:12 sizing 104:1 Sji 2:16 skip 86:8 sleeve 120:17 121:1 slide 7:14 51:18 52:4,9 58:3,9 75:4 79:14 80:2,9,17 81:19 82:1 85:21 87:10 89:2 110:2 122:14 125:2 138:8 139:8 142:7 163:7,14 164:1

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 sounded 238:4 sounds 173:22 182:16 183:22 210:9 214:21 238:6 246:9 source 59:22 61:19 62:10 74:19 130:21 131:13,14 132:9,18 133:4,5 134:1,21 137:16,18 138:3,7,8,21 139:3,8,15 203:12 space 101:4 107:20 span 107:9 spans 107:16 speak 8:22 40:9 102:4 123:15 154:16 164:9 SPEAKER

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 supposed 80:10 167:4 217:14,16 220:10 222:4 229:14 238:20 sure 7:21 8:11 18:10 22:2 34:8 36:13 37:16 38:18 43:13 47:10 54:4 64:16 70:17 71:7 75:17 82:11 87:10 93:5,10 100:3 107:20 118:5 119:7 140:5 146:16 151:2,3,9,12,13 163:15 164:15 172:1 178:8 186:15,19 195:15 197:2 199:1 203:17 205:6 208:17,18 214:19 218:22 223:12 225:1 227:18,22 234:2,11 237:11 246:5,18 255:17 surprised 152:10 217:17 233:18 survey 238:8 swamp 243:2 swap 17:18 switch 32:17 126:18 switching 126:4 system 104:1,8 114:18 124:9,18 157:18 168:13 232:20 systems 92:8 124:10 199:6 T

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-31-2013 Page 47

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