THE Veterans Benefits 

Administration’S PUBLIC CONTACT 

PROGRAM AND OUTREACH ACTIVITIES

Hearing

before the

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

House of Representatives

Subcommittee on Disability Assistance 

and Memorial Affairs

one hundred ninth congress

Second session

March 16, 2006

Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

Serial No. 109-40

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Committee on Veterans’ Affairs

Steve Buyer, Indiana, Chairman

Michael Bilirakis, Florida Lane Evans, Illinois, Ranking

Terry Everett, Alabama Bob Filner, California

Cliff Stearns, Florida Luis V. Gutierrez, Illinois

dan burton, Indiana Corrine Brown, Florida

Jerry Moran, Kansas Vic Snyder, Arkansas

richard H. baker, Louisiana Michael H. Michaud, Maine

Henry E. Brown, Jr., South Carolina Stephanie Herseth, South 

Jeff Miller, Florida Dakota

John Boozman, Arkansas Ted Strickland, Ohio

Jeb Bradley, New Hampshire Darlene Hooley, Oregon

Ginny Brown-Waite, Florida Silvestre Reyes, Texas

Michael R. Turner, Ohio ShellEy Berkley, Nevada

John Campbell, California Tom Udall, New Mexico

 John T. Salazar, Colorado

JAMES M. LARIVIERE, Staff Director

Subcommittee on Disability Assistance

and Memorial Affairs

Jeff Miller, Florida, Chairman Shelley Berkley, Nevada, 

Jerry Moran, Kansas Ranking

Jeb Bradley, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman Tom Udall, New Mexico

Ginny Brown-Waite, Florida Lane Evans, Illinois

 

PAIGE MCMANUS, Subcommittee Staff Director

(II)
CONTENTS

March 16, 2006

 Page

The Veterans Benefits Administration’s Public Contact Program and Outreach Activities ............................................... 

OPENING STATEMENTS

Chairman Miller .......................................................................... 

Prepared statement of Chairman Miller .................................... 

Hon. Shelley Berkley, Ranking Democratic Member ..............

Prepared statement of Ms. Berkley ..........................................

STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Tom Udall ..........................................................................

American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO ...

Witnesses

McCoy, Jack, Associate Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and

Program Management, Department of Veterans Affairs .....

Prepared statement of Mr. McCoy ............................................

Knowles, Ann G., President, National Association of County

Veterans Service Officers .......................................................

Prepared statement of Ms. Knowles .........................................

Wersel, Vivianne Cisneros, Member Legislative Committee,

Gold Star Wives of America, Inc. ..........................................

Prepared statement of Ms. Wersel ...........................................

INFORMATION FOR THE RECORD

Veterans’ Pension Benefit Pilot Study, Washoe County,

Nevada ....................................................................................

POST-HEARING QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Shelley Berkley .................................................................

(III)

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THE Veterans Benefits Administration’S

PUBLIC CONTACT PROGRAM AND OUTREACH

ACTIVITIES

Thursday, March 16, 2006

(1)

U.S. House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on Disability Assistance and

Memorial Affairs,

Committee on Veterans’ Affairs,

Washington, D.C.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in Room 

334, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Jeff Miller [Chairman of 

the Subcommittee] presiding.

Present: Representatives Miller and Berkley.

 Mr. Miller. Good afternoon, everybody. This hearing will come to 

order. Ms. Berkley is on her way. We are meeting today to receive 

testimony on the Veterans Benefits Administration’s Public Contact 

Program, as well as the extent and nature of current outreach efforts 

to servicemembers, veterans, and their dependents.

In recent years, VBA has done a good job of producing and distributing information that outlines the various benefits and services 

offered by the Department of Veterans Affairs, including a survivors’ 

benefit website that was launched just last year.

The federal government likewise has begun taking a more active 

role in providing information such as the website firstgov.gov, which 

is marketed as the “U.S. gateway to all government information.”

However, web-based and other types of electronic information programs may not be readily accessible to some potential beneficiaries. 

For this reason, it is vitally important that when someone calls their 

local VA office, they receive accurate information in a courteous manner.

It was brought to my attention through a series of published articles on VA’s so-called Mystery Caller Program that almost half the 

time the callers, who were in fact VA employees posing as customers, were given inaccurate information. In several instances, callers 

were treated rudely. Veterans and their families deserve better than 

this.

On the 24th of January of this year, I wrote to Admiral Cooper 
2

requesting information on what VBA has done to improve its public 

contact service. I appreciate his timely response. The Mystery Caller 

Program is the impetus for today’s hearing.

Ms. Berkley is running a little bit behind schedule, so what I would 

like to do is begin with panel one. At the end of the panel we will 

give Ms. Berkley an opportunity for her to begin -- give -- her opening 

statement if she chooses to do so.

You are already seated. We appreciate your being here. Mr. Jack 

McCoy is Associate Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Program 

Management at the VBA. He is accompanied by Ms. Carolyn Davis, 

VBA’s Outreach Coordinator, and Ms. Diane Fuller, the Assistant 

Director for Veterans Services with the Compensation and Pension 

Service.

Mr. McCoy, you may begin.

STATEMENT OF JACK MCCOY, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY UNDER

 SECRETARY FOR POLICY AND PROGRAM MANAGEMENT,

VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION; ACCOMPANIED

BY CAROLYN DAVIS, OUTREACH COORDINATOR; AND

 DIANE FULLER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR VETERANS

 SERVICES, COMPENSATION AND PENSION SERVICE, VETERANS BENEFIT ADMINISTRATION

Mr. McCoy. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I 

appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss VA’s 

outreach activities to make servicemembers, veterans and their survivors aware of benefits and services.

As you mentioned, with me today from the Veterans Benefits Administration, are Diane Fuller, Assistant Director of the Veterans’ 

Services Staff and Carolyn Davis, Veterans Benefits Administration 

Outreach Coordinator.

Also, my testimony will describe how VA is improving telephone 

services for those who call in to VBA regional offices. I will specifically address the actions that resulted from the mystery caller study 

which is an internal quality improvement initiative.

Let me first talk about outreach to servicemembers. Beginning in 

November of 2004, all persons inducted into the five military branches, received a VA benefits pamphlet at the military entrance processing station.

This pamphlet assures that inductees receive basic information on 

VA benefits. One of VA’s most successful outreach programs is the 

transition assistance program through which benefits, briefings, and 

personal interviews are conducted by VA representatives to regular 

active duty and Guard and Reserve members.

These briefings are key components in ensuring servicemembers 
3

experience a seamless transition from the military into the VA system. With the activation and deployment of large numbers of Reserve and Guard members following September 11, 2001, outreach to 

this group have been greatly expanded.

For example, the overall number of benefit briefings for this group 

has increased from 821 nationwide in fiscal year 2003, to nearly 2000 

briefings in fiscal year 2005.

Recently VA and the National Guard Bureau teamed up to improve 

the coordination of Veteran benefits at the State level by training 54 

newly hired State benefits advisors. These individuals will educate 

their fellow combat veterans on the many benefits to which they may 

be entitled.

Through VA’s Disability Transition Assistance Program, or DTAP, 

transitioning servicemembers are made aware of benefits available 

from VA’s vocational rehabilitation and employment program.

Since 2003, VA has placed representatives at key military treatment facilities where severely wounded servicemembers from OEF/

OIF, are frequently sent. These representatives educate servicemembers and their families on VA benefits and services and assist with 

the filing of disability and vocational rehabilitation claims.

As of January 3rd, 2006, 8,442 hospitalized returning servicemembers from the major military treatment facilities have been assisted 

through this program. VBA continues its benefits delivery and discharge program through which servicemembers can apply for serviceconnected compensation within 180 days of discharge.

Currently 140 military installations worldwide participate in this 

program, which includes two sites in Germany and three in Korea.

Let me now address outreach to recently separated veterans. The 

Veterans’ Assistance at Discharge System, or VADS generates the 

mailing of a welcome home package that includes a letter from the 

Secretary along with pamphlets describing VA benefits.

Six-month followup letters are also sent to veterans recently separated or retired from active duty. This includes Reserve and Guard 

members. Separate packages are sent that explain education, loan 

guaranty, and insurance benefits.

In the past few years, VBA has enhanced its national effort to reach 

out to former prisoners of war. News releases have been issued, a 

redesigned website has been activated and letters have been sent to 

former prisoners of war informing them of additional or a higher level 

of benefits to which they may be entitled.

Regional office outreach coordinators continue to participate in outreach activities in their communities. VBA is enhancing outreach to 

low-income and elderly veterans and surviving spouses to make them 

aware of their potential entitlement to pension benefits.

VBA outreach coordinators routinely participate in events where 

low-income and elderly veterans and surviving spouses gather, such 
4

as senior citizen centers, nursing homes, and senior day care centers. 

Relationships have been established with local agencies on the aging, 

social security offices and other organizations that come into contact 

with older Americans.

VBA has distributed more than two million copies of benefits, pamphlets, to more than 1300 social security offices nationwide. VBA is 

working closer than ever with the Veterans’ Health Administration 

and the National Cemetery Administration to ensure benefits information is made available at key customer service points.

We will continue to build and strengthen relationships with agencies such as Department of Health and Human Services, AARP, and 

National Funeral Directors. As part of Public Law 107-95, VA established a full or part-time homeless veterans’ outreach coordinator in all 57 regional offices. We will continue to work with other 

federal agencies in groups that are involved in homeless veterans’ 

programs.

I see that my time is up. If I could just -- 

Mr. Miller. Don’t worry about it. Please continue.

Mr. McCoy. Thank you. I would like to touch on improvement of 

our telephone services.

In addition to the extensive outreach activities described above, VA 

regional office employees provide direct telephone service to veterans 

and their family members. In fiscal year 2005, we handled more than 

6.4 million phone calls.

In an effort to improve quality, an internal initiative known as 

The Mystery Caller Study, was undertaken to assess the accuracy of 

the information provided over the telephone that is not related to a 

specific claim. While the findings of this review were disappointing, 

they have been a catalyst for actions to improve the quality of our 

telephone services.

VBA has strengthened field guidance, oversight, and accountability systems in this area, and we have expanded training resources 

available to our employees. Completion of an online reference system 

to help ensure that employees provide accurate information is being 

expedited for delivery by the end of this year. Centralized training is 

scheduled in June of this year for public contact representatives from 

each of the 57 regional offices.

We are also in the process of implementing a national telephone 

quality assurance program that we successfully piloted last year. 

The Under Secretary for Benefits has communicated an expectation 

to all regional office directors that immediate improvements be made 

in our telephone service to veterans and their families.

It is absolutely essential that we provide complete and accurate 

information to all those who call us for assistance and that our assistance is provided with courtesy, understanding and professionalism. 

This is and will remain a top priority for the entire organization.
5

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony, and I will be happy to 

respond to any questions that you or other members of the Subcommittee might have.

[The statement of Mr. McCoy appears on p. 22]

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much and I appreciate your testimony. Are the VA employees aware that they are being monitored by 

this program? Are they recorded during this monitoring process, and 

if not, do you think that it should be recorded?

Mr. McCoy. They are.

Ms. Davis. They are not recorded.

Mr. McCoy. They are not recorded, but they are aware that the 

silent monitoring is going on. And the fact that they are aware of the 

silent monitoring is one of the things that we brought to light that 

has started to improve our quality.

If I might just add, I had the opportunity week before last to go 

down to Nashville, Tennessee, and monitor, do silent monitoring myself, along with the Deputy Director of C&P service, and we did silent 

monitoring on four of the regional offices there.

And if I came away with one thing from doing that silent monitoring, it was the fact that there are an awful lot of good employees, 

sometimes trying to answer awful complex questions.

Mr. Miller. Why do you think, to use your word you were disappointed in regards to the results of Mystery Caller Program? Why do 

you think it was so disappointing?

Mr. McCoy. When we did the mystery caller study, obviously we 

wanted to see what kind of quality we had, what kind of quality we 

were giving to the public. I think what we found out is probably as 

much as anything was that when we did the mystery caller study, it 

was based on specific calls. It was not based on claim-specific calls -- 

excuse me. It was based on general calls.

In other words, someone would call up and ask a general question. 

My brother is a veteran. What can you tell me about this benefit? 

And we learned that we had not trained the people that we have on 

the telephone well enough to handle these type calls.

Mr. Miller. Section 7726 of title 38 requires the VA to report on 

an annual basis to Congress on the effectiveness of your outreach programs. What I would like to know from you is if VA is in compliance 

with this requirement? If so, where can I find the recommendations? 

And if not, why not?

Mr. McCoy. I am not sure I can answer that question, sir. I know 

that the Department no longer publishes the Secretary’s annual report. This report has been succeeded by the annual publication of the 

performance accountability report. But I can -- I will be glad -- 

Mr. Miller. I would just say that section 7726 of title 38 requires 

VA to report annually to Congress on the effectiveness of your out-
6

reach activities and make recommendations for improvements, and 

as far as I know, it is still a requirement. So if you could find out?

Mr. McCoy. I would be glad to.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much. I would like to yield now to 

Ms. Berkley, the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, who does 

have an opening statement, but she has asked that it be entered into 

the record, and without objection, that will de done, and she also has 

some questions that she would like to pose to you, Mr. McCoy.

Ms. Berkley.

Ms. Berkley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I apologize 

for being late. I try never to do that out of respect, not only for you of 

which I have considerable, but to our witnesses as well.

The woman that handles my Veterans’ Affairs issues, among many 

others in my office, is leaving after this hearing. It is her last. So we 

were having a little good-bye celebration in the office, and it went a 

little bit over, but I want to thank Shannon Von Felden from Henderson, Nevada, for her service, not only to me and my constituents, but 

to this Committee as well. Thank you very much.

I do have an opening statement, and as the Chairman said, I would 

like to submit it. Obviously the purpose of this hearing and the concerns that we have is the fact that people call the VA expecting to get 

some help, and we found that a considerable percentage don’t get accurate answers, or get completely inaccurate answers, and I suspect 

that your opening statement addressed this.

[The statement of Ms. Berkley appears on p. 20]

Ms. Berkley. But I did want to ask some questions and if they 

have already been answered or if they were contained in your opening remarks, I apologize a head of time. But we understand from the 

American Federation of Government Employees, that management 

at the VA typically views VBA telephone services as a low priority.

Records of calls are not kept. Emphasis is on reducing the call 

time to comply with the three-minute rule. Have any studies been 

undertaken to determine that the three minutes is adequate time to 

respond to a caller, and if there in fact this three-minute rule?

Mr. McCoy. I am not aware of the three-minute rule. I would say 

to you that, at each regional office, a veterans’ service representative 

that is taking phone calls in the phone unit has a performance standard just as the other veterans’ service representatives do, and that 

performance standard would be 64 calls per day.

To say that VBA puts a low priority on phone calls, I would also say 

that each regional office director, in his or her performance standard, 

has an element which is the lost calls or abandoned phone calls that 

would come into a regional office.

Ms. Berkley. Mr. McCoy, if I can direct your attention, and you 

might want to read this, the written statement of the American Fed-
7

eration of Government Employees, on page -- bottom of page 2 and 3 

-- they talk about productivity pressures, including the three-minute 

rule, and they are instructed to comply with both a three-minute time 

limit for length of calls and a three-minute limit on length of time, 

how long callers wait.

Mr. McCoy. I mentioned earlier that two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to go to Nashville, Tennessee, and do silent monitoring on 

four regional offices in the southern area, and I would only respond 

that I can assure you that that three-minute was not in effect at those 

four regional offices that I had an opportunity to do silent monitoring 

on.

Sometimes it very well might have been a three-minute call, because it was a very quick question or someone asking directions. But 

I -- 

Ms. Berkley. No. That is not what they are saying. They are 

saying that there is a three-minute rule that management is telling 

them to get on the phone, get off the phone within three minutes and 

pick up the next.

Mr. McCoy. Absolutely not, because there are phone calls that 

take 10 minutes, 12 minutes, whatever it might be. That -- I mean I 

do not know where they got that information from.

Ms. Berkley. Well, I think that is exactly the point, that we are 

dealing with issues that do take longer than three minutes.

In years past, all calls were answered by a public contact unit, and 

these employees received training in telephone interviewing techniques as well as substantive matters. Currently, some regional offices have employees splitting their time between public contact and 

in-depth case development. Should VBA reinstate the public contact 

unit, at least in larger offices; do you think?

Mr. McCoy. I would answer that by saying that is an issue that, 

as we speak, we are actually looking at right now, and I would even 

go so far as to say that in a few weeks I would have a much better 

answer, because it is something that Admiral Cooper actually tasked 

me to do.

Ms. Berkley. And while you are looking into that, would you also 

look into whether or not employees assigned to public contact be 

trained in telephone interviewing skills?

In my own congressional office, I know that perhaps the only contact that my constituent or somebody calling my office is going to have 

is the person that answers the phone. And if they don’t, “A,” know 

what they are talking about, and, “B,” have good telephone skills, I 

lose that vote.

And while you may not be losing a vote, you are certainly going to 

be losing the support of the veteran and worse, that veteran isn’t going to be getting the right information that they need.

Mr. McCoy. I agree with you. And one of the things that we are do-
8

ing now to provide leadership training and direction, not only to our 

managers, but also to the veterans’ service representives, answering 

the phones, is we are having workshops to -- I mean we recognize the 

fact that they need to be trained better, and we are going to do that.

Ms. Berkley. What about this as a management tool? Do you think 

the VBA should award productivity points to public contact employees who provide correct and courteous responses, I guess that would 

be akin to merit pay of some kind? Do you have an incentive or -- 

Mr. McCoy. Yeah. No, I mean I understand the question, but I 

guess I would fall back on the fact that I think, you know, every call 

that we take, people should get the right answer and get professional 

and courteous service. So it shouldn’t be an added initiative for them 

to do that.

Ms. Berkley. Let me ask, it shouldn’t be, but if we know we have 

got a problem and only 19 percent of the people that call the VA get accurate information and we know 22 percent get absolutely the wrong 

information, it seems that we need to do this a little bit better.

Mr. McCoy. I agree.

Ms. Berkley. The Senior Law Project Pension Benefits, Pilot Program in Reno, has suggested that the VBA needs to drastically improve their information dissemination to reach those most in need 

and to improve coordination and communication with VA medical 

centers to identify patients who may be eligible for the pension program.

Their testimony mentions a VA patient who spent her first check 

for $94 on food and another for whom a hundred dollars would have 

seemed like a thousand. Since VA medical centers have information 

concerning the low-income veterans they are serving, what steps do 

you think could be taken to assure the appropriate information and 

referral is provided to these veterans concerning the pension program 

and, in particular, house-bound and aid and attendance benefits? Is 

there a way we can be coordinating these programs?

Mr. McCoy. Absolutely. And I would ask Ms. Fuller to address 

that.

Ms. Fuller. We have been looking at when we are calling it pension outreach, one of the steps we have recently taken is working 

closer with VHA, and they have added benefits information, particularly centered towards pension in their enrollment letters that are 

sent out to veterans in the category five enrollment procedures.

That is going to start May 1st. And, you know, we had a great concern when we read some of the articles that these veterans had visited with -- were working with VHA, and they still didn’t know about 

benefits. So we have really heightened our relationship with VHA.

In addition, some information appeared that these veterans probably were working with social workers, and we have done some training on the national social workers conference calls and we continue to 
9

work with them on an ongoing basis.

We will be distributing more of our pamphlets to the VHA facilities 

for placement in such areas as the pharmacy and other places where 

veterans tend to have to sit and wait for some services.

Ms. Berkley. Okay. So explain to me, if you would, how that works. 

Do we give a pamphlet at the pharmacy? Older veteran American 

starts reading the pamphlet and says, “Oh, look at this. I might be 

entitled to some benefits, or here is a phone number.” What happens 

once they get that pamphlet?

Ms. Fuller. Once they get the pamphlet, if they think they are 

entitled or want some additional information, we provide our 1-800 

number in the pamphlet as well as our website address. We just want 

to make sure the information is out there where our veterans are.

Ms. Berkley. Let me ask you another question, and I don’t -- I 

think Mr. McCoy, if you are not the appropriate person, just direct it 

to the right one. Have you ever considered putting information concerning pension, housebound and aid and attendance benefits onto 

recorded information provided to waiting callers at the VA medical 

centers? Somebody is on hold. Do you have a recording that can be 

giving them the information while they are waiting?

Mr. McCoy. No, ma’am. We have never considered that. I mean 

it is obviously something that we would be more than willing to consider. I would be somewhat concerned, I think, about giving that type 

of information on a recording as to how well it might be received by 

the veteran or whomever it might be, but it is definitely something 

we can consider.

Ms. Berkley. No, I appreciate you telling me that you don’t think 

that is a particularly good idea.

Mr. McCoy. Well, I didn’t say I didn’t think it was a good -- 

Ms. Berkley. You don’t have to be polite. All right. Let me just 

conclude this line of questioning with one other question. The Pension Benefit Pilot Program has clearly identified and assisted eligible 

veterans and survivors in accessing benefits. Does VBA have any 

data concerning the success of the outreach efforts described in the 

testimony?

Mr. McCoy. Again, I would ask Ms. Fuller.

Ms. Berkley. Yes.

Ms. Fuller. Are you talking about the pension outreach, that 

type?

Ms. Berkley. Uh-huh.

Ms. Fuller. We don’t have any specific data on that. We don’t -- if 

you are talking about the number of veterans we have assisted, we 

do not collect that data currently. We do know that we have -- an 

elderly outreach coordinator in each regional office, and their assignment is to work with the area agent and local communities in trying to determine how we can best meet the needs of those veterans 
10

and surviving spouses. We have a great concern about the surviving 

spouses as well.

Ms. Berkley. Yes. Do you think you could provide a list, for the 

record, that you were just discussing, a copy for the record?

Mr. McCoy. A list of who we contact and we -- 

Ms. Berkley. The elderly outreach coordinators that you -- 

Mr. McCoy. Absolutely.

[The information is found on p. 75]

Ms. Berkley. I would appreciate that. In conclusion, let me just 

thank you very much for being here. I appreciate it. This is an issue of obvious concern to all of us. I think our veterans have a tough 

enough time, and knowing that these benefits are out there and they 

are not getting the accurate information they need to access these 

benefits and get the help that they need, I think is a concern for all of 

us and your help in this matter is greatly appreciated and I want to 

thank the Chairman for elevating this to a Subcommittee hearing so 

we can get the information out and endeavor to work better to help 

our veterans. Thank you very much.

Mr. Miller. Can I go back and refer to the three-minute rule that 

was talked about. I mean while it may not be necessarily written, 

is it implied because of the performance-based requirements of “X” 

number of calls during a day that have to be handled? And so if you 

do the math, you come up with three minutes per call in order to meet 

your goal?

Mr. McCoy. I absolutely don’t believe that is true.

Mr. Miller. But didn’t you say there were performance-based measures that they had to do so many calls a day?

Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Miller. Okay. And how many calls?

Mr. McCoy. Sixty-four.

Mr. Miller. Okay.

Mr. McCoy. But my point was I know from years of experience, 

that that is impossible for, you know, to say someone never said that, 

no, I wouldn’t -- 

Mr. Miller. No. I am just trying to figure -- 

Mr. McCoy. I wouldn’t say that.

Mr. Miller. -- out whether it is written or implied.

Mr. McCoy. No, sir. I do not know anywhere that that would be 

written, and I cannot imagine why anyone would imply that, because 

you can’t do it.

Mr. Miller. Very good. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. 

You are making some efforts in outreach. This Subcommittee appreciates that. But I think it is obvious from some of the questions and 

conversations that we would like to see greater oversight of the public 

contact team. And I think your comments today are geared toward 
11

that, and I appreciate that. We will probably get back together in the 

near future and talk about it again.

I would like to ask a favor if your schedule permits. Would you stay 

for the next couple of witnesses so you can hear their testimony?

Mr. McCoy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much.

Mr. McCoy. Thank you.

Mr. Miller. We will invite the second panel to come to the witness 

table. It also includes -- it is -- Mike, I think you are going to make an 

introduction. If everybody could come forward.

If I could by way of introduction just say that Mrs. Ann Knowles 

is the President of the National Association of County Veterans Service Officers, and since 1975 she has worked with veterans and their 

dependents on behalf of the Sampson County government in Clinton, 

North Carolina.

Ms. Vivianne Wersel is a new member of the Gold Star Wives, who 

I had an opportunity to meet prior to this hearing. Her husband, 

Marine Lieutenant Colonel Rich Wersel, served in Operation Iraqi 

Freedom. One week upon his return, he died on active duty at Camp 

Lejeune. Ms. Wersel volunteers on Gold Star Wives’ Legislative Committee and we appreciate her being here today.

My good friend, Representative Mike McIntyre, will make the official introduction this afternoon. He represents the 5th Congressional 

District -- fifth term in the 7th Congressional District -- 

Mr. McIntyre. You’re right. Thank you.

Mr. Miller. Well, you will probably have many, many more, too. 

He has introduced legislation to enhance outreach services to veterans and their survivors. Congressman McIntyre, thanks for taking 

time out of your schedule to make this introduction.

STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE McINTYRE, A REPRESENTATIVE

 IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA

Mr. McIntyre. Well, thank you, Chairman Miller and Ranking 

Member Berkley, and all the good work you all do on behalf of our 

veterans, and that is an absolute commitment I know that we share 

to those who have sacrificed to serve our country.

And so it does make it a great privilege to come today and to speak 

before you and to introduce a lady who has committed her life, professionally and personally, to the type of professional concerns that we 

know our veterans need to have attention given to.

In 1965, Ann Knowles she began her work as a county service officer back then, in her way to becoming national president of the National Association of County Veteran Service Officers. For more than 

three decades, she has assisted our veterans, helping them obtain the 

benefits they so clearly need and deserve.
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In 1992, Ms. Knowles was elected by her peers to serve as the President of the North Carolina Association of County Veterans Service 

Officers. Since 1998, she has held every leadership position in the 

National Association of County Veteran Service Officers, and last 

year was unanimously elected president of the Association.

She truly exemplifies the compassion and commitment and cooperative spirit that enables veterans service officers to help this nation’s 

most valiant warriors, our veterans. Her compassion for helping people led her to become a veterans service officer to begin with, and her 

commitment has been exemplified by not only the professional work 

she had done, but also by her working with the state and national 

organizations.

I am really pleased that last year in working with Ann, we decided 

to introduce legislation, The Veterans Outreach Improvement Act of 

2005, which would allow the VA to partner with state and local governments to reach out to veterans and their families in ensuring that 

they receive the benefits for which they are eligible and assist them 

in completing their benefits claims.

Only about -- this is a pretty amazing figure, Mr. Chairman -- only 

about 30 percent of veterans receive the benefits for which they are 

eligible. And I know in the situation with my father and my fatherin-law and other relatives, they have been amazed to find out as veterans, the number of benefits that are out there that many veterans 

just don’t realize they have available.

I want to thank Ann for coming today. Our county veterans’ service officers and our veterans need the assistance that this bill will 

provide. I encourage the Committee to give the bill its full consideration. I look forward to working with each of you and furthering the 

call of helping our nation’s veterans.

And, again, I want to thank you, and I want to thank Ann for making the trip to be here today from our home district to so that you 

can hear this special testimony from a very special lady about a very 

important bill.

May God bless you all in your work and may God bless you, Ann, 

for what you and we pray God’s blessings upon our nation’s veterans. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much, Congressman McIntyre from 

the 7th Congressional District. I appreciate having the opportunity 

to partner with you on many issues that are important to our veterans community. Thanks for being here.

Those were the bells. Everybody heard them ring. We were not 

supposed to have a vote at this time in the afternoon. However, I 

would like to go ahead and squeeze as much time as we can with this 

panel, so we will let you know if we begin to draw short of time.

So, Ms. Knowles, if you would, we will ask you to begin with your 

testimony.
13

STATEMENT OF ANN G. KNOWLES, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL

 ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY VETERANS’ SERVICE OFFICERS

Ms. Knowles. Yes, and I would ask that my testimony be made 

part of the record.

Mr. Miller. Without objection.

Ms. Knowles. Chairman Miller, Members of the Subcommittee, it 

is truly my honor to be here to present this testimony before you as 

president of the National Association of County Veterans Service Officers. I am commenting on the following: recommendations for the 

improvements to the accuracy and quality of service provided by the 

Veterans Benefit Administration to individuals calling into the VBA; 

recommendations for the creation of a federal, state and local government partnership to provide outreach to our veterans’ independence.

The National Association of County Veterans Service Officers is an 

organization made up of local government employees. Our members 

are tasked with assisting veterans in developing and processing their 

claims. Between 75 and 90 percent of all claims originate in a county 

veterans office.

Our members sit across the desk each day with these men and 

women who wish to file a claim. They are our friends, our neighbors, 

members of our community whom we see daily. We exist to serve 

veterans and partner with national service organizations and the Department of Veterans’ Affairs to serve veterans.

We will speak about the VBA’s telephone units. It appears the majority of the problems center around new staff with a lack of knowledge of VA programs and sometimes disinterest in assisting the veterans or the veteran service officer of record.

When a veteran calls to request a status of his or her claim, the 

answer shouldn’t be that request will have to be made in writing. 

That is definitely the wrong answer. Worst yet, some have been told 

wrongly not to file a claim.

The service officers expect to be giving information when calling on 

any veteran they represent. It is not uncommon to be told we can’t 

give you that information if the veteran isn’t with you in the office. 

The goal of people assisting veteran with benefits should be to do 

what it takes to get the veterans the benefits.

If first impressions mean anything, the first point of contact with 

the VA is the 1-800 number. Sometimes it has left a bad impression 

on many veterans and their dependents. So let us fix that. At one 

regional office in Florida, the service center manager has an excellent 

solution, and that can be found in our written testimony. I didn’t 

have enough time to go into that, but they have an excellent solution.

Outreach. Outreach means different things to different people. 

Outreach to the county veterans service officer means directly touch-
14

ing a veteran and his dependents. The VA’s concept of outreach is 

putting posters into VA hospitals, to vet centers, to clinics, publicizing 

in this organization’s magazines, and these are good. Both of these 

methods have the ability to reach a certain segment of veterans.

The outreach that I will address is the hands-on approach. Across 

our nation, there are veterans that do not think they are a veteran 

because they didn’t lose a limb or they didn’t get injured. They came 

home, went to work to support their families. They have never looked 

for help from the government.

And when the veteran dies, his wife or his children do not look, 

because they didn’t know they were entitled to, that their husband or 

their father’s service in serving their country gave them the entitlement. They are mostly lower income and have never reached out to 

the VA; and, therefore, they don’t think they are entitled either.

I look at rural North Carolina and see the great need to make these 

veterans aware that they deserve the benefits, that they are earned 

entitlement. They are not welfare. These veterans have never made 

use of the VAMC’s, the GI Bill, the pension, the service connected, 

none of the benefits, because they don’t think they have earned them. 

They just served their country and came home.

It is so rewarding when you can meet a veteran and you tell them 

what they are entitled to, and you see the hope on their face. It sometimes means a difference between eating and taking medication. I 

am sure if a study was completed, you would see a large number of 

rural veterans have never used the VA for any service. The VA has 

responsibility to reach out and make everyone aware of the entitlement.

Outreach efforts must be expanded in order to reach those veterans’ dependents and survivors that are unaware of their benefits. 

Only one in seven of the survivors are receiving benefits. It is obvious 

there is a great need for outreach to the veterans community and the 

local CVSO is the advocate closest to the veterans and widows and 

with minimal funding, could reach the maximum number of eligible 

veterans.

Therefore, NACVSO is supporting HR 4264 and I am sorry my time 

is out. Would you -- I have got -- 

Mr. Miller. Please continue.

Ms. Knowles. -- is supporting HR 4264 and its companion Senate 

Bill 1990, introduced by Congressman McIntyre and Senator Richard 

Burr of North Carolina. This would allow Secretary Nicholson to 

provide federal, state, local grants and assistance to state and county 

veterans to enhance outreach to veterans and their dependents. We 

are already present in most communities and stand ready to assist 

the Department of Veterans’ Affairs and their task.

In conclusion, if I have commented on any item of interest to this 

Subcommittee, we stand ready to expand on our comments. And 
15

thank you for giving us this opportunity.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much for taking time to brief us. We 

will have some questions. I would like to proceed to Ms. Wersel. 

You’re up, and you have a little button right in front of you on that 

microphone, down at the base.

[The statement of Ms. Knowles appears on p. 36]

 STATEMENT OF MS. VIVIANNE C. WERSEL, MEMBER

LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE, GOLD STAR WIVES OF

 AMERICA

Ms. Wersel. I am an audiologist. Can you hear me?

Mr. Miller. No.

Ms. Wersel. If I say that, can I deduct this on my taxes? Mass 

screening.

Mr. Chairman, Representative Berkley, and Members of the Subcommittee on Disability Assistance and Memorial Affairs, I would 

like to thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on 

behalf of Gold Star Wives regarding the importance of accuracy of 

benefits information and the quality of services we see when we are 

seeking assistance from the Veterans Benefits Administration.

I am here particularly for America’s military widows, of which I 

am one, and our children. I am the widow of Lieutenant Colonel Rich 

Wersel, United States Marine Corps, who served in Iraq on numerous occasions and died on active duty at Camp Lejeune one week 

after his return from Iraq.

Most recently I have worked to assure that all survivors of active 

duty deaths receive the enhanced benefits of SGLI and the death gratuity, and I thank Congress very much for your help.

Today I am here to share with you my own experiences, along with 

the other widows, with the government regarding how we receive our 

benefits information while experiencing the most difficult time of our 

life, grieving for our husband.

I want to thank the members of the Subcommittee and its staff for 

its continued support of all programs related to the well-being of widows and children. However, we do have some concerns.

It is imperative that the death of our spouses should not be compounded by the lack of information or confusing information that prevents us from obtaining the assistance needed so that we can begin 

the rest of our life without our most critical support and that was our 

husband.

Currently we are at war, and there are many, many dying at this 

moment and leaving behind young families. If there is one message 

that I could leave with you today is that there is never enough accurate information and communication. 

t should not be dependent on us to ask the right question or even 
16

to know what question to ask. Getting the right information to the 

right people at the right time is important. While we are in our fog 

of grief, we have conversations with many agencies and folders are 

left for us.

A period of adjustment is needed, often, just to make a phone call, 

check a website. Lack of information on the VA website can be frustrating. It is often beyond our six months or even a year before we 

can even address some of our issues. By that time our casualty assistance officer is no longer available. However, we do have a site 

where we can contact the main person for each branch of service that 

helps us.

Another issue we have is that many of the CACOs, the Casualty 

Assistance Officers, know nothing of the Montgomery GI Bill or the 

refunds of BAH. That’s Basic Allowance Housing.

We have multiple instances of the governments’s failure to change 

crucial, critical information regarding beneficiaries of SGLI and the 

failure to change emergency information provided just before leaving 

for overseas, which is distressful and no fault of the widows.

We ask your serious consideration of creating an oversight office for 

survivors across the VA and DoD to assure improved delivery of benefit information to its widows and extending the outreach time, long 

enough for it to be meaningful for us who are suffering at this time.

Gold Star Wives sponsors a chat room for new widows so that they 

would have the support of each other as well as those elder widows 

who have endured hardships in earlier times. We have knowledge 

based on our chat room which is vibrant and gives a realtime look at 

the issues these widows are facing.

Many times we are our own best resource system, those in similar situations to identify where to go for needed information, needed 

help, and to help the new widows recognize the support that is out 

there for them.

Our issues apply both to new widows and older widows. We are 

the sorority that no one wants to rush, and our membership is always 

open, originally meant to serve as an emotional support it has now 

turned into an avenue of resources for widows. Here we can share 

benefit information in a user friendly benign setting.

Also I am here to raise awareness that training material must constantly be reviewed and revised because the information is continuously changing. At the most critical time of our lives, we are juggling. 

We are making decisions. Where are we going to live? What are we 

going to do with the children? Are we going to quit our job? Are we 

going to keep our job? And if we are keeping our job, how are we going to do it while we are grieving?

I am running short on time. I am going to go down to -- because 

I think this is really important and that is there are some issues we 

have encountered, in getting information regarding our benefits. A 
17

lot of the information is critical. I am out of time. May I proceed?

Mr. Miller. Please proceed.

Ms. Wersel. Thank you.

Mr. Miller. I am going to have to leave in just a minute. Ms. Berkley has already headed to the vote. We have about run out of time, 

but please proceed.

Ms. Wersel. Thank you. A lot of the information is difficult for the 

CACOs to even understand, the smoke and mirrors of SBP/DIC benefits, the child option SBP versus the spouse option SBP, confusion 

with funeral costs, incorrect SGLI, benefit information, CHAMPVA; 

the list goes on. This information isn’t clear, even for the CACOs to 

deliver to us and much less for us to understand it.

Bereavement counseling is an issue for us, just trying to get on the 

website to understand where we go for counseling, what type of referral we need. Are the counselors really ready for the young widows? I 

don’t think they are. I think we are a breed of our own it is difficult 

for them to understand that we may need more time, more frequent 

visits. We may need more sensitivity when it comes to dealing with a 

grieving spouse. And from the response that we are getting from our 

chat room, this is now being done.

In conclusion, we do not want to be forgotten. Whenever the ultimate sacrifice is given, there is family left behind. When our nation 

asked our husbands to give their lives, we are asked to continue our 

lives with a gap so large it is difficult to transgress.

I am asking you to please show the spirit of this nation by not forgetting us in our time of need. We do not come to condemn the various government personnel who touch our lives; giving them the tools 

they need to support us widows who are forced to exist in a fog of 

grief, so that we can make a million unsure decisions that we never 

had to make before.

I thank this Committee for using this hearing as one more avenue 

of awareness and education, for giving me the opportunity to share 

my thoughts and the goals of Gold Star Wives. We hope that this will 

alert you to discrepancies and inefficiencies that you may be able to 

alleviate in your deliberations this year. We will be happy to continue to work with you in addressing any and all outreach initiatives. 

Thank you.

[The statement of Ms. Wersel is on p. 44]

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much, and rest assured you are not 

forgotten. We have to ensure that our servicemembers, veterans, and 

their survivors are well informed of all of the services that are available out there to ease their transition to civilian life and also to those 

widows who are out there who have lost a spouse.

Without objection, statements will be entered into the record from 

the Senior Law Project at Washoe County Senior Center and the 
18

American Federation of Government Employees. Also, all members 

may have questions to submit to witnesses.

[The statement of AFGE, AFL-CIO is on p. 54]

[The statement of VPBPS is on p. 65]

[The information is on p. 70]

 Mr. Miller. Again, I apologize. This is not the way we were supposed to have ended this today. Now I have to go for a vote. We will 

submit questions to you for the record, and we will make sure that 

VA gets the responses to your questions because I had hoped that 

they would be made in public.

We thank the VA for staying behind, and I would say I have got 

to go to the vote now, so with nothing further this hearing is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 2:52 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

 
(19)

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