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REBUILDING HIGHWAY AND TRANSIT

INFRASTRUCTURE ON THE GULF

COAST FOLLOWING HURRICANE

KATRINA--STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS

(109–39)

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON

HIGHWAYS, TRANSIT AND PIPELINES

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

TRANSPORTATION AND

INFRASTRUCTURE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

OCTOBER 27, 2005

Printed for the use of the

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure

(
COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE

DON YOUNG, Alaska, Chairman

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin, Vice-Chair

SHERWOOD L. BOEHLERT, New York

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan

VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan

SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

SUE W. KELLY, New York

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana

ROBERT W. NEY, Ohio

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey

JERRY MORAN, Kansas

GARY G. MILLER, California

ROBIN HAYES, North Carolina

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut

HENRY E. BROWN, JR., South Carolina

TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania

SAM GRAVES, Missouri

MARK R. KENNEDY, Minnesota

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas

JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania

MARIO DIAZ-BALART, Florida

JON C. PORTER, Nevada

TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas

MICHAEL E. SODREL, Indiana

CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania

TED POE, Texas

DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington

CONNIE MACK, Florida

JOHN R. ‘RANDY’ KUHL, JR., New York

LUIS G. FORTUN ̃ O, Puerto Rico

LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia

CHARLES W. BOUSTANY, JR., Louisiana

JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio

JAMES L. OBERSTAR, Minnesota

NICK J. RAHALL, II, West Virginia

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon

JERRY F. COSTELLO, Illinois

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

Columbia

JERROLD NADLER, New York

CORRINE BROWN, Florida

BOB FILNER, California

EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas

GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi

JUANITA MILLENDER-MCDONALD,

California

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon

ELLEN O. TAUSCHER, California

BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey

LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa

TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

JIM MATHESON, Utah

MICHAEL M. HONDA, California

RICK LARSEN, Washington

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York

JULIA CARSON, Indiana

TIMOTHY H. BISHOP, New York

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine

LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee

BEN CHANDLER, Kentucky

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York

RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri

ALLYSON Y. SCHWARTZ, Pennsylvania

JOHN T. SALAZAR, Colorado

JOHN BARROW, Georgia

(II)
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHWAYS, TRANSIT AND PIPELINES

THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin, Chairman

SHERWOOD L. BOEHLERT, New York

HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina

JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee

JOHN L. MICA, Florida

PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan

SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama

STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio

SUE W. KELLY, New York

RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana

ROBERT W. NEY, Ohio

FRANK A. LOBIONDO, New Jersey

JERRY MORAN, Kansas

GARY G. MILLER, California, Vice-Chair

ROBIN HAYES, North Carolina

ROB SIMMONS, Connecticut

HENRY E. BROWN, JR., South Carolina

TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois

TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania

SAM GRAVES, Missouri

MARK R. KENNEDY, Minnesota

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania

JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas

MARIO DIAZ-BALART, Florida

JON C. PORTER, Nevada

TOM OSBORNE, Nebraska

KENNY MARCHANT, Texas

MICHAEL E. SODREL, Indiana

DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington

JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio

DON YOUNG, Alaska

(Ex Officio)

PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon

NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia

JERROLD NADLER, New York

GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi

JUANITA MILLENDER-MCDONALD,

California

ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland

EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon

ELLEN O. TAUSCHER, California

BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey

TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington

SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada

JIM MATHESON, Utah

MICHAEL M. HONDA, California

RICK LARSEN, Washington

MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts

ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York

JULIA CARSON, Indiana

TIMOTHY H. BISHOP, New York

MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine

LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee

BEN CHANDLER, Kentucky

BRIAN HIGGINS, New York

RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri

ALLYSON Y. SCHWARTZ, Pennsylvania

JAMES L. OBERSTAR, Minnesota

(Ex Officio)

(III)

(V)

CONTENTS

TESTIMONY

Page

Bradbery, Johnny B., Secretary, Louisiana Department of Transportation and

Development ......................................................................................................... 2

Brashear, Dwight D., Chief Executive Officer, Capital Area Transit Systems .. 2

Brown, Wayne H., Southern District Commissioner, Mississippi Department

of Transportation ................................................................................................. 2

Deville, William, General Manager, New Orleans Regional Transit Authority . 2

Hall, Dick, Central District Commissioner, Mississippi Department of Transportation ................................................................................................................ 2

Vaughn, Don, Chief Engineer, Alabama Department of Transportation ............ 2

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS

Carnahan, Hon. Russ, of Missouri ......................................................................... 50

Cummings, Hon. Elijah, Maryland ........................................................................ 51

Porter, Hon. Jon, of Nevada ................................................................................... 78

PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES

Bradbery, Johnny B. ................................................................................................ 33

Brashear, Dwight D ................................................................................................. 41

Brown, Wayne H ...................................................................................................... 46

Deville, William ....................................................................................................... 56

Hall, Dick ................................................................................................................. 66

Vaughn, Don ............................................................................................................ 68

ADDITION TO THE RECORD

Heavy and highway construction prevailing wage rates in Hurricane Katrina

impacted counties, Department of Labor, Office of Wage and Hour, chart .... 79

(1)

REBUILDING HIGHWAY AND TRANSIT INFRASTRUCTURE ON THE GULF COAST FOLLOWING HURRICANE KATRINA— STATE AND

LOCAL OFFICIALS

Thursday, October 27, 2005

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON

HIGHWAYS, TRANSIT, AND PIPELINES, WASHINGTON,

D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in Room

2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Thomas E. Petri [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.

Mr. PETRI. The Subcommittee will come to order. I would like to

welcome the panel that is here before us. I will make an opening

statement. Mr. DeFazio is in a busy time. There are hearings, and

the House is in session on the floor.

Mr. DeFazio has a bill that is up in another hearing. So he has

asked his colleague, Mr. Taylor, to fill his slot as Ranking Member

on the Subcommittee. Mr. Taylor is on his way here from another

meeting and will be with us shortly.

I would like, as I said, to welcome all the witnesses to today’s

hearing on Rebuilding Highway and Transit Infrastructure Following Hurricane Katrina—State and Local Officials. The purpose of

today’s hearing is to follow up on our hearing last Thursday when

we heard from U.S. Department of Transportation officials regarding the transportation impacts of Hurricane Katrina.

Today, we have invited State and Local transportation officials

from Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi to update the Subcommittee and, through us, the Congress on the repair and replacement of highway and transit systems and the restoration of vital

transportation services following the Category 4 hurricane that

devastated the Gulf Coast Region on August 29th.

Acting FHWA Administrator, Richard Capka, told us last week

that they were aware that Interstate 10, U.S. 90, and other important highways in the Gulf Coast Region are the economic life blood

of the hurricane-damaged region and play a central role in the

economy of the entire Gulf Coast. The Federal Highway Administrator updated the Subcommittee on several projects that are currently underway and assured us that the long-term rebuilding effort will begin very soon.

The Federal Highway Administrator highlighted priorities for the

upcoming months which include funding transit services in areas

that have a significant number of evacuees, implementing FEMA
2

mission assessments in Louisiana and Mississippi, and securing

FEMA emergency funding for assets damaged or destroyed, and engaging in a strategic planning process to ensure transportation options are part of future planning for cities and regions.

I and other members of our Committee and other committees in

the House visited the affected areas September 18th. On a helicopter tour, we saw the tremendous damage to the area’s infrastructure that was left in the hurricane’s wake. I also toured the

FEMA Emergency Operations Center which is about 50 yards behind the Convention Center, and it is impossible to convey the devastation that actually occurred down in that region. Only now are

people moving back in and beginning the recovery process.

In light of the overwhelming work that faces each of today’s witnesses in restoring transportation facilities and services in the Gulf

Region, I would like to personally thank each of you for traveling

here today. You can give us a first-hand view of the reconstruction

process, both in the immediate future and also your views on

longer term recovery plans. Your testimony will play a significant

role in assessing the full impact of Hurricane Katrina.

We look forward to hearing from you, and again we thank you

for your testimony.

Now I will turn over the microphone to Mr. Holden of Pennsylvania to make any opening statement he would care to make.

Mr. HOLDEN. Mr. Chairman, I was just promoted. So I don’t have

an opening statement. I thank you for holding this hearing on this

very important matter and look forward to hearing from the witnesses.

Mr. PETRI. Very good. We will hold the record open, and I think

Mr. Taylor may want to say something when he actually gets here.

But at this point, we will turn to our witnesses. I will begin with

Mr. Johnny B. Bradbery, Secretary of Louisiana Department of

Transportation.

TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY B. BRADBERY, SECRETARY, LOUISIANA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION AND DEVELOPMENT; DICK HALL, CENTRAL DISTRICT COMMISSIONER, MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION; WAYNE H.

BROWN, SOUTHERN DISTRICT COMMISSIONER, MISSISSIPPI

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION; DON VAUGHN, CHIEF

ENGINEER, ALABAMA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION;

WILLIAM DEVILLE, GENERAL MANAGER, NEW ORLEANS REGIONAL TRANSIT AUTHORITY; AND DWIGHT D. BRASHEAR,

CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CAPITAL AREA TRANSIT SYSTEMS.

Mr. BRADBERY. Chairman Petri and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me here today. I am Johnny Bradbery,

Secretary of the Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development.

I am truly honored to be here today, representing Governor

Kathleen Blanco, the employees of DOTD, and the citizens of Louisiana who have shown great courage and strength throughout this

tribulation. I hope my testimony and responses will help you in the

important work you do for our Country’s infrastructure.
3

I want to brief you on what my agency has done in the last two

months since Katrina hit. DOTD has removed more than one million cubic yards of debris from roads and bridges, enough to fill

33,000 garbage trucks. DOTD employees have inspected roads and

bridges, side by side with Federal officials, and have carefully documented damage and estimated repair costs which are included in

this report to your staff. Our employees and contractors already

have repaired some of the damage, but there remains much to be

done.

One high profile job was the I-10 Twin Span Bridge which was

severely damaged during Hurricane Katrina. Hundreds of 300 ton

concrete segments were knocked from the bridge into Lake Pontchartrain. DOTD had the low bid contractor on site within two

weeks. DOTD directed the contractor to establish two-way traffic

by October 27th which is today.

Despite setbacks including a four day work stoppage for Rita, on

October 14th, Louisiana officials and Secretary Mineta opened traffic on this vital interstate link. We finished the job ahead of schedule and $20 million under project estimate. That is the way we intend to all of our work.

DOTD is doing the most it can with the resources it has. For several months, long before Katrina and Rita, DOTD employees had

embarked on a process improvement initiative to find more efficient ways to do our work. We streamlined processes, changing the

way we do many of our jobs. As a result, we announced plans last

spring to trim our work force by nearly 500 positions, saving about

$20 million a year.

DOTD is working smarter and more efficiently, but today we des- perately need our Country’s help. Our $10.6 billion appropriations

request is reasonable and relevant for the work that must be done.

We worked closely with several agencies, including FEMA, the Federal Highway Administration, and Local officials to ensure our figures are as accurate as possible. The $10.6 billion request is divided between repair and replacement of infrastructure and critical

transportation needs for future events.

While these specific amounts are documented in supporting materials, I must point out some critical issues we are facing. DOTD

has requested immediate release of $100 million in FHWA emergency relief funds to pay for emergency repairs. So far, we have received $5 million. The cost just to repair the Twin Span Bridge is

$31 million. Our cash flow problem soon will become acute if we

do not immediately receive this funding.

Another critical issue involves timely FEMA reimbursement. We

estimate that FEMA eligible repairs to roads, bridges, public ports,

airports, public railroads, and transit will cost about $2.2 billion.

Without quick reimbursement, much of this burden will have to be

carried by local governments that have lost their tax base and are

struggling to maintain their work force.

There are many other critical issues I don’t have time to fully

discuss. We need waivers on the amount and time restrictions for

emergency relief funds. We are in a potential dispute with FHWA

and FEMA over the extent of roadway damage. We must replace

the I-10 Twin Span Bridge with a six lane facility. Displaced citizens from the New Orleans area have caused overnight population
4

surges in other Louisiana communities, stressing those already

overburdened highways to a state of gridlock.

In closing, let me again thank you for your time. My request is

that you provide the necessary resources we need so we can continue to rebuild.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my report. I will be happy to further discuss critical issues and answers that you may have.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you very much. I should note your full statement will be made a part of the record, and we appreciate your

summary. There will be questions when we finish.

Next we have Mr. Wayne Brown, Southern District Commissioner, Mississippi Department of Transportation. Sir, thank you.

Mr. BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, for this opportunity to come and discuss the critical issues

dealing with Hurricane Katrina in the State of Mississippi.

On August 29th, when Hurricane Katrina slammed the shore,

our first estimate of the cost damage was $1.5 billion in the State

of Mississippi to our road system. We later raised it to $1.8 billion,

but as we got into the work and began to do the recovery, our estimate has been reduced to $695 million.

We do think that there probably should be some consideration for

emerging requirements and some discovery. Much of the work that

we have got to do is under water or under sand, and there will be

some discovery as we go along. And I would expect that our estimate probably would go no more than $750 million.

The primary problem we had after Hurricane Katrina was a 300

foot section of Interstate 10. The eastbound lanes were destroyed.

We also had some outside beams destroyed that piled in on the

center span on I-110 that serves the Biloxi Peninsula which was

very important.

Prior to the hurricane, Biloxi had 18 lanes of traffic serving the

Peninsula. After the hurricane, there were five lanes. It went down

from 18 to 5. We had three in, two out. It was real critical that

we repair I-110. Also, U.S. Highway 90, the beach front part from

Biloxi to Pass Christian, 26 miles, was heavily damaged.

The Highway 90 Bridge over Bay of Biloxi and over the Bay St.

Louis bay were destroyed. A tremendous amount of debris, signage,

traffic signals, guardrails, those five things, all together are something in the neighborhood of $700 million.

We need what Secretary Bradbery spoke of. We need time extensions, and we need money. The Mississippi Department of Transportation has a very tight budget, and we are spending that small

amount of money we have. We have very limited borrowing capacity, and we are beginning to hit the wall on the money. And we

need money so that we can continue with this recovery work.

The U.S. 90 Bridges are anticipated to cost $400 million, $200

million a piece. The repair of Highway 90 and the debris, with all

of that together, we anticipate spending $100 million this year, 300

next year in 2006, and 300 in 2007.

Now, we have got a hard decision. Without some Federal funds,

we are going to, number one, have to stop our recovery, or number

two, we are going to have to look at some of our ongoing projects.

Those of you know that it is very difficult to stop an ongoing
5

project. So we have got to make those decisions, and we need some

relief and need it quickly.

Mississippi is prepared. We are ready. We have the engineers.

We have the contractors. One thing that I am very proud of is that

almost every contract that the Mississippi Department of Transportation has let has gone to Mississippi contractors. In other words,

the contractors that are out of work because of Katrina have put

back to work because of Katrina. So we have been able to bring on

our regular contractors that were put out of work to continue with

the Katrina work.

As we sit here now, there are literally tens of thousands of people on the Mississippi Gulf Coast living in tents, living in motels.

Some are fortunate enough to have FEMA trailers, and they are

coming in at a rather rapid clip, but we still have literally thousands and thousands of people without housing. We have tens of

thousands of people unemployed. Just in the casino industry, there

are 17,000 unemployed people on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. It is

imperative that we rebuild this infrastructure so that they can effect the recovery on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.

We want to express our appreciation to you, to the Congress, and

to the people of the United States who have poured out their support to us in an unprecedented manner, and we appreciate that.

We appreciate the report of Rick Capka and Secretary Mineta from

Federal Highway Administration. We want to assure you that the

Mississippi Department of Transportation has been a good steward.

We have been careful with the money, and we will continue to.

But let me point out something to you. When you are standing

in Biloxi, Mississippi, and there are literally thousands of trucks

and hundreds of relief vehicles, and people going back through

search and rescue teams, the Salvation Army, FEMA; and you have

a lane out on a bridge, and you have got to repair that; and you

see all that is needed there, you are more interested in time at that

point and that you have money in repairing that.

So if you look back, we may have not always made the best

money decisions, but we think we made the best decisions, and we

are going to continue. Now that we have time, we are going to see

to it, and we are going to work very hard for this recovery. We just

need your help.

Thank you very much. I will be here and welcome your questions. Thank you.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you. Mr. Taylor has joined us and may want

to say a word. The next witness is also from your State, and that

is Mr. Hall.

Mr. TAYLOR. I just want to thank Mr. Hall, who I had the pleasure of serving with in the State Legislature, and Mr. Brown for

being here. I am sorry that I wasn’t here at the beginning, as we

have simultaneously, I think, three hearings on Hurricane Katrina,

but obviously what you do is of utmost importance.

I would hope at some point in your testimony, you would talk

about what plans, or at least hopes, you have in addition to rebuilding Highway 90 and the bridges that were destroyed; on the

short-term, what this Committee and what this Nation can do to

help you provide some sort of ferry service across Bay St. Louis and
6

across Biloxi Bay so we can reestablish some sort of normal link

between Harrison County, Hancock County, and Jackson County.

And the other thing that I would ask that you touch on is, again,

what this Committee, what this Congress can do to improve the

interoperability between the State Highway Department and the

United States Department of Transportation. If there is anything

that we have missed in order to help you do your job better in the

wake of this tragic event, we certainly need to know about it and

would welcome your thoughts.

Mr. PETRI. The next witness is Mr. Dick Hall, Central District

Commissioner, Mississippi Department of Transportation. Sir?

Mr. HALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Congressman Taylor for your remarks. I, too, am pleased to be here, to participate in these hearings regarding the transportation infrastructure and the damage caused to the State of Mississippi. Commissioner Brown, my colleague, has done a good job of providing you

with a report of the damage done to Mississippi’s highway system

and the problems we have encountered about being reimbursed for

repairs. I would like to briefly discuss where we need to go from

here.

First, allow me to point out that highways are not the only transportation infrastructure destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. Our ports

and railroad were devastated, and the Gulfport-Biloxi International

Airport was seriously damaged. Not only is the replacement of this

infrastructure absolutely necessary, but how and with what it is replaced is of utmost concern.

Within days of the passing of the storm, our Governor had the

foresight to appoint a bipartisan commission to evaluate our losses

and make recommendations for recovery. This commission, in consultation with engineers and architects from other states and other

countries along with Local officials, compiled a preliminary list of

what needs to be done to repair the damage done to our State. Included in this recovery list is transportation infrastructure which

must be replaced.

By the way, this commission is not a governmental agency; it is

funded from private sources. This offers the advantage of not having to wait for legislative approval, which we discovered after Hurricane Camille can greatly slow down decisionmaking.

At this point, allow me to emphasize we are not here to ask for

vast amounts of money to build wild ideas pulled out of the air. We

are here to discuss building what makes sense. No, it won’t be exactly like what was there. A lot of what was there was obsolete

and, in some cases, a danger to the public. Case in point, the CSX

Railroad, this railroad runs basically parallel to the coastline,

sometimes less than a quarter mile from the shoreline.

There are approximately 160 at-grade crossings of this railroad

between the Louisiana and Alabama state lines. One hundred ten

I understand are in Harrison County alone, and that is the county

where Biloxi and Gulfport are located. Obviously, this is a very

dangerous situation which results in fatalities annually. You, the

U.S. Congress, have already invested $4 million to begin the process of relocating this railroad.

Some people think this is a no-brainer. The present location of

the railroad provided one unanticipated function when it served as
7

a levee against the tidal surge of Hurricane Katrina. This is obvious when one observes the complete destruction south of the railroad.

This is one of the reasons the Governor’s Commission for Recovery, Rebuilding, and Renewal has recommended the height of the

levee be raised and the existing right of way where the railroad

now is be used for an east-west thoroughfare which is desperately

needed. This could also accommodate a bus rapid transit or a light

rail.

Allow me to repeat. This is not some wild idea. It is an example

of rebuilding with vision and common sense.

Additional reconstruction and improvements recommended include: Planning for enhanced multi-modal access and

interconnectivity among rail, truck, air, and seaports for expansion

and long-term growth. Consider port expansions to include inland

ports, inland terminals, or distribution centers that are not located

on a water channel. The damage, the great damage done to the

ports, along with everything done there, was this 30 foot surge of

water.

So some think that it may make sense to put warehousing and

some other things that are part of a port system inland. Plan for

public transportation for citizens who need it most: the elderly,

poor, and handicapped. Evaluate public transit or trolley on the

beach.

Now, I didn’t say build it; I said, it says evaluate it. I don’t know

if it is a good idea or not. Provide cruise ship port accessibility. And

calm the Highway 90 traffic which is a very dangerous situation

and convert it to a parkway boulevard section. All of these deserve

consideration.

True, we don’t have the money to do any of them, but as Jim

Barksdale, Chairman of the Governor’s Commission recently stated, it is the worst possible time, but the opportunity makes it the

best possible time.

I would like to take just a minute or two on the subject of transit. I did not have prepared remarks because I just now got the information, but I would like to share it quickly with you. We had

50 vehicles submerged in saltwater; about half of them are now

running. These are our bus, vehicle and vans transit systems along

the Coast of Southern Mississippi.

FEMA has assigned MDOT a mission assignment to serve the six

southernmost counties for 60 days. FEMA will pay 100 percent of

the costs for 60 days.

There are two problems. These vehicles will be replaced in kind,

I am told, and that means if a vehicle has 100,000 miles on it, it

will be replaced with a vehicle which has 100,000 miles. That is not

much improvement. The biggest problem we are going to have is

what happens at the end of 60 days.

We are told that a local match will then be required. The three

coastal counties of Hancock, Harrison, and Jackson have estimated

they have lost half of their tax base. There is no way they are going

to be able to meet this match requirement. And remember, this is

transportation which serves a lot of people who have no other options.
8

Congressman Taylor mentioned a ferry. That is being discussed.

One of the problems there, as I understand, we are talking about

the ferry crossing is not deep enough to have a vehicle ferry. So if

that is the case, there is even more need for public transportation

to get to the ferry and on the other side. So that is just another

issue to discuss and decide.

Again, I will yield to the next gentleman, and I will answer any

questions you have at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you. And next we have Mr. Don Vaughn, Chief

Engineer of the Alabama Department of Transportation. Mr.

Vaughn?

Mr. VAUGHN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the

Committee on behalf of Governor Riley and the entire State of Alabama.

Mr. PETRI. I am sorry. I apologize. I meant to yield to my colleague who arrived in a timely fashion, Spencer Bachus, who is a

very active member of the Congress and of this Committee.

Mr. BACHUS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually, Mr. Vaughn

was doing a really good job on his opening statement. I kind of

hate to interrupt.

I do want to introduce him because he is a friend of mine, and

he is a very capable public servant, and I would like to give the

Committee a little insight into who Don Vaughn is. He is a guy

that has really come up through the ranks.

He began working for the Alabama Highway Department in 1966

in a statewide local survey party, and this was as a teenager, and

he continued to work on that survey party and go to Auburn cooping; going to Auburn, then working, and going back to Auburn.

So he worked for the State Highway Department while he was still

at Auburn.

He graduated in 1972 with a degree in Civil Engineering, and he,

at that time, became full-time with the Alabama Highway Department in the Engineering Education Training Program and as a

graduate Civil Engineer.

Over the next 32 years, Mr. Vaughn has held a number of engineering positions in the department. He has been the Administrative Engineer to the Transportation Director, the Assistant Transportation Director, and the Assistant Chief Engineer.

Then in February of 2003, he was appointed not only Chief Engineer, which he is, but also Deputy Director of Operations for the

Highway Department. As many of you who go through Alabama

may know, we have some of the finest highways in the Country,

some of the best constructed highways, and I credit our speaker

today with a lot of that. Thank you.

Mr. VAUGHN. Thank you, Congressman Bachus. I was hoping you

wouldn’t mention Auburn sitting here at the table with LSU since

they whipped us the other week.

[Laughter]

Mr. BACHUS. I am not going to mention the field goal misses,

that is for sure.

Mr. VAUGHN. Right, right.

[Laughter.]

Mr. VAUGHN. As I was saying, on behalf of Governor Riley and

the entire State of Alabama, we very much appreciate the oppor-
9

tunity to come up here before members of this Committee. My trip

up here today was a little easier; I flew up on a Delta jet. And I

know when you came to visit us in Mobile, you flew in on a helicopter with the doors open, and I know that was exciting in itself.

Hurricane Katrina was the third major storm along with Ivan

and Dennis to directly impact Alabama in less than a year. Damage to our system was not nearly as severe as the damage to Louisiana and Mississippi, but there were a number of infrastructure

challenges that presented themselves. Even though we have previously experienced several large hurricanes over the years, having

three major hurricanes in such a short period of time focused attention on those operational areas that worked well and those that

did not.

First, I would like to recognize the Federal Highway Administration for their support. Key personnel from Federal Highway Administration were present with Alabama DOT personnel at each

meeting prior to, during, and following the storm. Questions on eligibility of emergency relief, project scopes, limits, methods of contract award, and the like were quickly answered which helped to

eliminate delays and move recovery efforts along.

This level of participation import was not unusual. It was representative of Federal Highway Administration’s response that we

have come to expect during both disaster and non-disaster periods.

Routes that are within the range of tidal surges are susceptible

to be damaged in a variety of ways. Layers of sand up to three or

four feet thick are often deposited on roadways. Shoulders are often

scoured or eroded during a storm or immediately afterwards when

the water recedes to its source. Sections of roadway near bridges

and culverts are especially susceptible to these breaches. Some of

these breached sections can be several miles long.

Timely post-storm damage assessments and responses are made

more difficult by these forms of damage. During Hurricane

Katrina, a number of coastal routes were damaged in the ways that

I have just mentioned.

The majority of our repair work was accomplished by a combination of State forces and contract forces paid on force account basis.

We have been very successful in identifying and making damage

assessments. Our damage, as I said, was not nearly as severe as

Mississippi and Louisiana. Our emergency relief request totaled a

little in excess of $18 million, and we have a little more than half

of that already authorized by Federal Highway Administration.

One major issue we faced, the major east-west artery across our

region of the United States is handled by Interstate Highway 10

and U.S. 90. All of these routes cross the Mobile River at Mobile.

Two of the crossings are tunnels. One of the crossings is a major

cable-stayed bridge.

During Hurricane Katrina, we were in danger of losing all three

arteries. The Bankhead Tunnel, which was the original crossing, is

at elevation approximately five, and we have to close that in anticipation of a storm surge. So it was not available to carry traffic.

The Cochrane Bridge, which was a cable-stayed bridge north of

Interstate 10, was hit by an oil rig that had broken loose from dry

dock and managed to hang up on the bridge, and we had to close
10

the Cochrane-Africatown Bridge. The tunnel along Interstate 10,

because of pump failures, was in danger of flooding.

Had we lost those arteries, and this was an event, a happening

that we had not anticipated in any of our scenarios, east and west

would have been severed at Mobile. This would have hampered not

only evacuation but the recovery and relief efforts following the

storm.

So one of our greatest needs in Alabama is a new structure

bridge crossing the Mobile River at Mobile. Our current estimates

of that bridge are in the neighborhood of $660 million which is

more than we can handle in our normal funding cycle.

One thing that we did to help during and before the storm, Governor Riley issued a waiver of enforcement laws that allowed overweight, oversized, and mobile homes to move through the State.

This was something that assisted us in the recovery effort. It assisted relief and recovery, not only in Alabama but to Mississippi

and Louisiana as well. It is important to note that these vehicles

were not allowed to move completely unencumbered across the

States. There were routing maps attached to the resolution which

ensured safety during this period.

A shortage of fuel was another issue that we had not anticipated

before, and loss of communications. So we are in the process of upgrading our communications system.

Gentlemen, that concludes my oral summary. Again, I thank the

Subcommittee for allowing me and others to appear before you to

offer information concerning the devastating effects of Hurricane

Katrina. Thank you.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you, Mr. Vaughn. Next, Mr. William Deville,

New Orleans Regional Transit Administration. Sir, we look forward

to your testimony.

Mr. DEVILLE. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you

today.

The New Orleans Regional Transit Authority, a political subdivision of the State of Louisiana, was a mid-sized transit system employing nearly 1,300 people. We operated with 372 buses, 66 streetcars, and over 80 para-transit vehicles. The RTA averaged 124,000

riders per day on its 46 buses and 3 streetcar routes. Of the

855,000 people we carried weekly, over 20 percent were considered

transit-dependent.

On Friday, August 26th, Hurricane Katrina’s projected path

abruptly changed towards the Louisiana/Mississippi border. The

next morning RTA staff reported to the City of New Orleans officials that it was prepared to carry out the City’s hurricane plan.

The RTA, as part of its own hurricane planning, fueled up nearly

half of its fleet based at its East New Orleans facility, and moved

those buses not providing regular service to higher ground on a

wharf near downtown New Orleans.

On Sunday morning, August 28th, per the City’s plan and request, the RTA began running special service from 12 sites across

the City to take riders to the Superdome, the shelter of last resort.

In addition, the RTA also ran at least 10 para-transit vehicles to

the Superdome and then on to the Baton Rouge area for special

needs citizens.
11

On Monday night, August 29th, when it appeared Katrina had

finally passed, the water continued to rise up around the RTA

Canal Street facility, trapping nearly 250 people. When the backup

generators failed, it became quite apparent that it would be necessary to evacuate the building.

Using air mattresses and wading through unspeakable water,

the group fled the building and found higher ground on an overpass. The next day, an employee was able to locate a small boat

to evacuate the last of the stranded as well. Then came the difficult

and heartbreaking trip out of town to evacuation centers.

Most of the RTA employees that served the City just hours before, evacuating those in need, themselves ended up in shelters in

Baton Rouge and Baker, Louisiana, where many of them are still

located today. Within days of the hurricane, key RTA staff set up

temporary headquarters in Baton Rouge at the offices of the Capital Area Transit System. From there, the RTA executive staff with

the cooperation of CATS, FTA, FEMA, and State officials proceeded

to plan for the immediate future. Particularly, I thank Bob Patrick,

the FTA Regional Administrator and his staff for their early assistance.

At my direction, we have begun to rebuild our transit system for

the new New Orleans. I have reached out to the transit industry

and have established a strike force team to assess the damage to

our facilities and buses and prepare an action for the phased rebuilding of our transit service and organization. The Federal Transit Administration has already begun review of the situation, prerequisite to the flow of funds that have been made available to support this effort.

Our plans for the immediate future are fundamental: restoration

of service for our customers, reemployment of our staff, and the rebuild of our organization. Our first goal, which I am happy to say

is well underway, is the return of service for as many of our operable buses as possible as we repopulate our metropolitan region.

Thanks to the emergency transportation contract through FEMA

and FTA, the RTA has partially restored 13 of its bus lines to service in New Orleans; more are planned.

Key to RTA’s recovery will be the return and stabilization of our

revenue base. Our operating budget is principally funded through

three sources: fare box, penny sales tax, and New Orleans hotelmotel tax. Obviously, all three are lost for the moment, particularly

at the levels needed to sustain our organization. As mentioned, we

are presently operating FEMA-sponsored service, and until tax revenue is restored, we will not be able to generate our normal income.

A good part of our streetcar infrastructure has been damaged including 30 streetcars which sustained serious water damage. Damage to the St. Charles line was minimal other than the overhead

catenary lines. The new Canal Street line was under water and has

sustained heavy damage. We estimate that we have lost as many

as 200 transit buses to the storm. There are five RTA facilities, and

with the exception of the Carrollton barn, four sustained extensive

damage.

The lack of damage to the Carrollton barn was very fortunate.

That is the site of the construction of the canal streetcars, and we
12

plan to rehabilitate those damaged canal streetcars at Carrollton.

It is also the storage facility of the irreplaceable St. Charles streetcars, all of which remain operable.

We also plan to get the Riverfront line back in operation soon,

using St. Charles streetcars. Our headquarters at Plaza Drive appears to be a total loss. Our plans are to return to New Orleans

as soon as possible to a temporary office until we can establish permanent headquarters at our Canal Street facility.

I thank the EPA for performing the cleanup of water damage at

the Canal Street facility. The RTA looks forward to working with

Federal, State, and Local officials to plan a better and exciting new

New Orleans as envisioned and promised by those officials.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and all of the members

of the Committee for giving us the opportunity to update you on

our progress in bringing transit services back to the New Orleans

Metropolitan Area. I will be happy to answer questions at the appropriate time. Thank you very much.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you, and we will be turning to questions after

we hear from Mr. Dwight Brashear, Chief Executive Officer of the

Capital Area Baton Rouge Transit System. Sir?

Mr. BRASHEAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The late Dr. Martin Luther King once said that history is the

long and sometimes tragic story of the facts. And I think it is an

opportunity like this that allows us to snatch that statement out

of midair and change it around so that we can say that history is

the long and sometimes triumphant story of the facts.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Subcommittee, and guests, thank

you for this opportunity to testify before you today on behalf of the

Capital Area Transit System of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I am honored that you have requested me here today to discuss the valuable

part mass transit has performed during Hurricane Katrina and as

it continues to aid in the devastation and aftermath of this cataclysm.

First, let me say I bring greetings from Baton Rouge MayorPresident Melvin Kip Holden and Louisiana Governor Kathleen

Blanco. Both were pivotal in our ability to maximize efforts in providing essential emergency services.

I must also recognize the contributions of FEMA, the FTA, and

Secretary Bradbery’s group over at the LADOTD for providing policy direction and technical assistance. Lastly, I would like to express the gratitude of all of the people along the Gulf Coast for the

help that this great Nation has given from you, the elected officials,

to the many people and organizations from every State in this Nation.

I myself am a witness to the resolve, and resourcefulness, and

the commitment of people extending a hand and opening their

hearts to millions of hurting displaced families, many of which

have lost everything. I say to you today, we must continue to meet

the short-term emergency needs, and we must commit ourselves to

the long-term rebuilding and resettlement needs of our fellow sisters and brothers.

Transit in Baton Rouge, pre-Katrina, we had our eyes on a major

public involvement process to put a referendum before the voters

of East Baton Rouge Parish to expand transit service and to de-
13

velop transit infrastructure for bus rapid transit. We had a fair

amount of traffic congestion and associated infrastructure issues as

well. Baton Rouge was a capital city of approximately 400,000 population with an estimated urbanized area of some 600,000. It was

a city excited about transit innovation and growth potential.

Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast on August 29th, 2005. I

simply describe it as shock and awe of Biblical proportion. A critical crisis situation happened overnight. Within 24 hours, approximately 400,000 of New Orleans 1.3 million population were moved

to Baton Rouge. The road infrastructure was over-capacitated. A 20

minute peak period commute went to almost 2 hours.

The transit system was overwhelmed. Buses simply had to pass

people up along transit routes due to passenger loads. Food, water,

gas, utilities, and medical became critical supplies. A logistics

nightmare ensued for moving anything. Support and coordination

efforts of Federal, State, and Local entities were pushed and

stressed beyond endurance limits.

The physical destruction of property was beyond comprehension.

Well over 80 percent of New Orleans was under water.

However, we persevered and moved to hurricane triage stage.

FEMA, FTA, the military, State and Local agencies such as CATS

and the New Orleans Regional Transit System began to provide

emergency services. At one point, I was tapped by our Governor to

assist with the coordination of evacuation transportation. School

buses, transit buses, and inner city coaches from around the Country came to our aid.

CATS, NORTA, FEMA, FTA, the MPO, and State and Local Governments worked for 14 hours a day from September 8th through

the 19th to develop an emergency Baton Rouge/New Orleans

Project Proposal. FEMA and the FTA responded with a $47 million

contract on October 1st, 2005. This is probably the largest FEMA

award to a mass transit property in history.

Today, CATS and NORTA, we work side by side in our City providing emergency mass transit services to displaced hurricane victims and also providing transportation options to gridlock and traffic congestion. NORTA is operating emergency fixed route local and

ADA para-transit service in Baton Rouge. We will shortly begin operation of a Park-N-Ride express service with an innovative buses

only on shoulder program. The FEMA/FTA project has allowed

NORTA to begin calling back some of their 1,350 displaced employees. NORTA has also begun to start up service in New Orleans.

This is a transit success story because the partners persevered

and championed the mission. It required real change in State and

Local policies and procedures, real change in coordination, and internal operations of both my organization and NORTA. It has required help from sister agencies relative to equipment. It has required the replacement of fear with endless possibilities and boundless opportunity.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to tell you that mass

transit is working and working well. I pray that God will continue

to bless this Nation and bless this Government. Thank you.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you all.
14

Let us turn to questions. Mr. DeFazio has joined us and had a

very bad day. He is going to have Mr. Taylor lead off on his side.

I think I will defer to Mr. Bachus from ours if you care to.

Mr. BACHUS. Thank you. My first question or comment will be

to Mr. Brown. As we flew over Mississippi, we did see where that

rail, main line CSX track was pretty much torn up for many miles,

and I am aware that you all have been trying to move and relocate

that rail line which you mentioned in your statement. Have you

been having success with Federal officials in basically the relocation you propose?

Mr. BROWN. Well, the study has been ongoing. And yes, they

have been very cooperative in the relocation of that rail line. Yes.

Mr. BACHUS. How about the Mississippi Export Railroad, was it

damaged?

Mr. BROWN. They had some damage at Pascagoula-Moss Point,

but no real heavy damage.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay.

Mr. BROWN. And, of course, they would be able to feed into that

area with the CSX relocated.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay. Any other members that wish to comment on

that?

Mr. HIGGINS. Yes, I mentioned that.

Mr. BACHUS. That is right. You also mentioned it.

Mr. HIGGINS. I mentioned that you guys have already appro- priated $4 million to pursue the study of that and the feasibility

of it.

Mr. BACHUS. Yes, I would just hate for us to rebuild it right

where it is when the long-term plan is to move it.

Mr. HIGGINS. Amen.

Mr. BACHUS. Mr. Vaughn?

Mr. VAUGHN. Some of that would involve Alabama, and Alabama

is cooperating with Mississippi in that effort as well.

Mr. BACHUS. We have an opportunity. I mean it is destroyed. It

has to be moved back, but if you can also move it back and utilize

the old road bed for a dike.

Mr. BROWN. I will point out that they are having to rebuild

across the Pascagoula River Basin because when Katrina came in,

they had a train parked in Gautier. So they are having to rebuild

to bring that train back out of there, and they do have one customer there, the—

Mr. BACHUS. And I think that could either be a spur or secondary track later.

Mr. BROWN. Yes, yes.

Mr. BACHUS. Not built back.

Mr. BROWN. And it was not a difficult bridge to build back. It

wasn’t a span or anything, steel span; it was a wood span.

Mr. BACHUS. I am going to ask another question of Mr. Vaughn.

Before I do, Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce a letter that

I wrote October 21st to Mr. Ken Burris who is the Acting Chief of

Operations of FEMA, and this deals with the relocation of The Holiday, our cruise ship. There were two cruise ships at New Orleans,

and they were originally to be redeployed to Mobile. That is what

we were told by Carnival officials within a day or two of the hurricane.
15

Then two days later, FEMA actually told us that not only would

that not happen but that the cruise ship that was located in Mobile, which is a mainstay of our economy, would be used to house

refugees from the storm, or evacuees. The cost of that ship is

$1,300 per occupant if they filled it up, and it is about half full

where the average cost of a cruise is half that. So they paid twice

what it cost.

If they filled that ship up and sent it out on a cruise, they would

have made half the money they contracted for. They never notified

anybody in Mobile they were taking it. The University of Alabama

has just done a study that says that is going to negatively impact

Mobile’s economy by $12 million a year annually, and it has already run for four or five months.

I and other members of the Alabama delegation keep writing

FEMA, asking them to reconsider this, and as of yet, although we

were promised in a hearing before this Committee on October 6th

we would receive an answer, we have not. We have a parking deck

that is $4,000 a day we are losing money on in Mobile.

So think how ironic it is that a hurricane hits Mobile County,

that was the county that suffered the damage, and within four

days FEMA comes in and takes away our cruise ship which is our

number one source of revenue to the City, which is absolutely absurd. And yet, they did that without consulting with anybody in

Mobile and not only that, they paid an exorbitant price to do it.

Then they will not respond to our inquiries asking for reconsideration.

Having said that, Mr. Vaughn, you have had to deal with three

hurricanes: Ivan, Dennis, and now Katrina. In working with the

Federal Highway Administration’s Emergency Relief Program and

FEMA’s Emergency Assistant Program, what challenges has the

State of Alabama had with using both these programs to address

road and bridge damage caused by the storms?

Mr. VAUGHN. Congressman, I think our biggest challenge is the

misunderstanding of the roles that Federal Highway’s ER program

and FEMA’s relief program have when it comes to debris removal.

The DOT with Federal Highway Administration ER money will go

through and make a first pass following a storm, and clear the road

for traffic, and then remove the storm debris from the right of way

with ER participation. Following that, what we get into is adjoining

landowners will bring their debris to the State right of way which

is eligible for FEMA funding.

The landowners don’t understand, and the Local Governments

don’t understand the difference, and we start getting calls about

the DOT failing to remove the debris from the State highway. We

have recognized this. It is something that has occurred in every

storm, and we have recognized this. We are working with our local

EMA, FEMA, and Federal Highway Administration, and we are

going around developing an educational seminar, if you will, to try

to explain the differences between these two programs.

Mr. BACHUS. All right. Thank you.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you. Mr. Taylor.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I want to thank

all of our participants for being here. I am going to limit my remarks just to the guys from Mississippi. A couple things, in looking
16

at the short range efforts to get some sort of traffic across Bay St.

Louis and Biloxi Bay, as someone who lives in Bay St. Louis and

spends a lot of time on the bay, Mr. Hall, I am very aware that

it is a very shallow body of water, and that is going to complicate

things.

But there are assets out there such as the Navy Construction

Battalion, such as an outfit in Poplarville that actually makes

dredges. The Corps of Engineers could provide dredging for the

parts that are necessary. So again, I think it is great that you have

plans on from the day you let the contract to the day we cut the

ribbon on the bridge, that it is 18 months. It is still going to be

months before you let the contracts. So we are looking for those

folks, which is a lot of people, at a two year delay.

I would really encourage you, and particularly since I think our

Nation is going to end up paying for this, and it is not going to

come out of the State’s budget, to do everything possible to provide

some sort of ferry service. And include, amongst your options, looking at some form of rail transport of getting those cars across the

bays because I spoke with the CSX folks yesterday.

They are expecting the Bay St. Louis Bridge to be completed in

less than six months. They are a bit luckier in that all they have

to do is pick up the pieces of the old bridge and spot them back

in place, rather than the undertaking that you have which is to replace the bridges. So I would really ask that you consider that for

the sake of the folks who live down there.

The second thing is this Committee was good enough to pass

under the 109th Congress Public Law 109-59 Section 1805, which

requires that when a bridge is destroyed and removed, that we do

something good with it. In Coastal Mississippi, doing something

good with it means either building a barrier to protect our islands,

building a barrier to break water for a harbor, or building a fishing

reef with it, as Secretary Brown and your commission had been so

helpful on when the Interstate Bridge over the Jordan River was

replaced a couple years ago.

We have two great opportunities to do a lot of good with what

will be the debris of the Biloxi Bridge and the Bay St. Louis

Bridge. I had a conversation with the head of our Department of

Marine Resources, Dr. Bill Walker, last week. They have already

signed on to be the local sponsor to pick the sites to take the responsibility for the debris.

Once it is put overboard, it becomes their responsibility if there

is any liability, and they are a very willing participant in this.

Since I have two of my three commissioners here, I would really

encourage you to do good things with that and seize this once in

a lifetime opportunity. I hope those bridges aren’t destroyed again

in my lifetime.

That is why I am saying, a once in a lifetime opportunity to do

something good with that. And again, this is going to be paid for

with Federal dollars. So as a Federal Congressman, I am going to

ask that you all try to make that happen.

The third thing is kind of parochial, but I do think important for

the sake of future generations of Mississippi, and this falls in the

very small request category. I would hope you would put a marker

on Highway 603 at the high water mark where the waters of
17

Katrina left that debris lying. I think future generations would be

well served by knowing just how bad that storm was, just like I

think my generation is well served by the great book written about

the flood in Louisiana and Mississippi in 1927.

Again, I am with you in the replacement of those bridges. I have

had the opportunity to cruise Highway 90 a couple of times in the

past couple of weeks. I want to compliment the crews that are out

there trying to get it up and running.

But I think it is also important to have people from Jackson

County get to Harrison, and people from Harrison get to Hancock

without having to jump up to the interstate because what used to

be a 2 mile drive for people from Bay St. Louis to attend school in

Pass Christian or the other way around is now more like a 20 mile

drive. Given the fact that Cowan and Lorraine, Highway 49, and

many of the other north-south roads have really become bottlenecks, anything that we can do to get Highway 90 up and running

as quickly as possible would be important.

The last thing I would ask, and I fully support your efforts to try

do something with the CSX line, keeping in mind that even the

folks from CSX are saying, if we could do this as quickly as possible, we are still looking at six years. Anything that is done along

what was the CSX roadbed, if it is not limited entry, if you don’t

have some sort of interstate style limited entry, where you don’t

have a traffic light every block, if we don’t have some sort of limited entry, you have accomplished absolutely nothing. If all we do

is build an overpass road at great expense of moving that railroad

and building another road, we really have accomplished nothing for

the citizens.

So I would encourage you up front, before anything else happens,

to get a commitment from each of the cities, and that means Biloxi,

Gulfport, Long Beach, and Pass Christian. Get a commitment from

them up front that they will be willing to live with the political

heat that would come from making that limited entry because in

your testimony you mentioned the 100 plus rail crossings.

We have not seen the local community step forward to even stop

rail crossings, which is just for one customer. So if they are not

going to be willing to step forward and limit rail crossings, it is

really important that they be willing to step forward and limit the

north-south crossings there would be to this future road. Again, if

you don’t do that, we really haven’t accomplished much. But I

would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Mr. BROWN. Congressman, number one, I am 100 percent in

favor of that. You could accomplish what Commissioner Hall spoke

of. You can also make a higher levee and keep the ocean from

washing in.

Mr. TAYLOR. That would be great.

Mr. BROWN. I think you are absolutely right, and then that

would allow us to do some really, really nice things on U.S. 90. In

other words, as Mr. Hall said, you could calm it; you could make

it a parkway; you could make it something attractive and attract

people to the Coast.

But you would have a people mover in the old CSX line and probably to have to elevated, to build it to interstate quality, and limited access is a way to do it. I would like to see some type of transit
18

included in that. I think it is important. Transit is hard to get

going, but we need more transit on the Coast.

I really like your idea of the marker. Let me back up to that. I

think I can guarantee that will be done. On the rubble, we have

provisions in the contracts on U.S. 90 to put to use the rubble or

to make it available, not necessarily use it. But we run into some

things, some obstructions. We won’t clean with steel protruding. I

think there is a piece of steel protruding from every piece of that

rubble.

Mr. TAYLOR. If I may, Commissioner Brown?

Mr. BROWN. Sure.

Mr. TAYLOR. If you take the time to look at the success story that

you already have which was the key at Telegraph, at Square Handkerchief.

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. There was some steel protruding. What the contractor did was for the visible steel, he went there with something as

simple as a settling torch and cut that off. Below the water line,

there is a lot of steel which actually became the first safe haven

for the fish and the first oysters, clams, algae; it actually attached

to the steel before it attached to the concrete. And then what happens is because it is steel and because it is salt water, over time

that stuff is going to go away anyway, but it isn’t the eyesore, and

really we have not had any complaints from the way that was done

which still left the steel on it.

Mr. BROWN. It would be a shame if we did not use that rubble

to improve our fisheries in our Mississippi Gulf Coast, and we, the

Commission, are going to do what we can to make that happen.

Mr. TAYLOR. Great.

Mr. BROWN. And the ferry, we are working with. FEMA is now

in the lead on that. We were working with Federal Highway, but

FEMA came in, and they are in the lead on the ferry, and they are

working with our Public Transit Division and Maritime.

Mr. TAYLOR. Again, just to throw out the rail idea, I know that

Amtrak at one time had passenger trains that touted that you

could bring your car along. Now, I know that was a long haul, say

from New York or Washington down to Florida, but somebody out

there has got to have a mechanism for a quick way to get cars onto

a flat car and get them off again on the other side.

Again, Mr. Hall correctly pointed out that putting a ferry across

Bay St. Louis is not a simple task, but this at least gives you another option to look at, and I have to believe that somebody in the

world is already doing that.

Mr. BROWN. I would like clarification. It is my understanding

that after the 180 days or some period, that somebody is going to

pick up 20 percent of the cost of that ferry.

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, as you know Governor Barbour is up here. We

have the great fortune of having two very senior Senators, including the Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. If that

is the only hindrance, please let them know about that. I think

that can get fixed.

Mr. BROWN. Thank you very much.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much.
19

Mr. HALL. Mr. Chairman, may I make a remark or two in response to Congressman Taylor, and I will try not to say the same

things that my colleague did. One I will mention is I think I agree

with him that Highway 603 high water mark is a very good idea,

and I am sure we will do that.

You mentioned repairs on Highway 90. We awarded how many

contracts Tuesday? Three. Three contracts at our Commission

meeting last Tuesday, so they will be underway immediately. There

won’t be any more delay getting that started.

You mentioned the limited access on that CSX right of way. Absolutely, and it won’t be easy politically, but there is no reason to

do it if we don’t do that. I mean the whole point is to do away with

these 100 plus at-grade crossings. If someone had the suggestion

that you make it, or they had the idea of something like St.

Charles in New Orleans, have the highways and the trolley.

All that is a possibility, and that is still yet to be determined.

But I agree with you. Certainly, we have to do it in a way that does

away with the at-grade crossings.

And the ferry, we will continue to pursue that. It reminds me

that I can understand. I am an old Coast Guard guy. You were in

the Coast Guard, weren’t you, if I remember correctly? Thank you,

Mr. Chairman.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you.

I wonder if I could ask all of the panelists, the last panel represented the Federal Transit Administration, I think, and FEMA

discussing this aspect of reconstruction with Transportation and

Infrastructure. If you could, sort of in a positive way if possible,

there was some controversy because of what happened in New Orleans with the double blow and finger-pointing.

My own personal view is that we want to get the job done, and

then we can go back and figure out what worked and what didn’t

work and how to do better next time, but to try to put all of this

in a positive context.

Are there things that we can do right now? Are there areas

where improvement, or support, or communications between Federal and State could be improved? You have alluded to sort of getting some better framework for the flow of funds or commitments

so that you can proceed. It is pretty clear that you are going to

have enough real world delays. They have responsibilities to be

good stewards, and to make sure things are well thought out, and

that there is not unnecessary waste.

But on the other hand, we want to get this economy up and moving, and people paying taxes and paying their bills, and earning

something, and taking care of their families as quickly as possible

down there. A lot has to be done in terms of infrastructure for that

to really happen.

So if you could comment on any things, concerns you have, or

things we might highlight, or things we might do at the Federal

level to make sure that we are supporting your efforts. You are on

the front line. I appreciate hearing of it.

Mr. BRADBERY. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of Louisiana, our situation with and our critical issue, around FEMA in particular, has

to do with the timeliness of their reimbursements. We have had a

very poor history with FEMA performance as relates to reimburse-
20

ment. This year, I can’t look at you and tell you that they are untimely yet.

However, given the past track record, we are fairly leery. I can

tell you that the process that we go through to prepare a project

worksheet for FEMA is very arduous, very difficult, very complex.

There are a lot of steps to it, and we better get it right the first

time or it is coming back, and it goes through the cycle again and

again.

So my point is from Louisiana’s perspective, we have a real cash

flow problem. In the middle of next month, we are going to run out

of money. If we don’t get reimbursed on a timely basis on the

money we are spending now by FEMA, it will be very serious in

our State.

So any encouragement, any process improvements we can recommend, and any sort of discussion with FEMA would benefit this

whole thing. Again, we are about ready to turn in about 30 to 35

PWs by the end of this week, and we are going to see very shortly

what kind of response we get. But if it is not timely, we are going

to be in a world of hurt.

Mr. PETRI. Can you flesh that out? What magnitude of money are

you talking about, and what kind of things would happen if you

didn’t get it handled quickly? I mean even if there is a problem,

if they work with you to solve the problem, that is one thing. If you

get bureaucratic runaround and delays, that is quite a different

thing.

Mr. BRADBERY. All right. Well, we will take debris cleanup as an

example. We are paying those invoices now. If we don’t get that

money back, we are taking money out of our trust fund, and come

December, our operations budget is going to go negative on the

cash flow side. We will have to consider taking money from the rest

of our program and put Federal dollars at risk and the regular

highway program at risk because we are not getting reimbursed

fast enough. I don’t know if that answered your question or not.

But again, to me, it is a process thing with FEMA. It is how efficient they are. I mean we see cases to where in one week, they will

have a person sitting at a desk to go through a process with you.

In two weeks that same person is not there anymore, and you kind

of have to go through the process again with another individual. It

is sort of a learning curve issue.

I like to use the analogy that when FEMA gets into an area,

FEMA is almost us. They hire consultants. They hire people in and

around the area and from other States to come in, and these people

have to go home. They work just like the rest of us. When they do

that, you bring somebody else in. It just, again, exacerbates the

problem, and they have to go through a learning curve as well.

So again, I think our issue with FEMA is process-driven. I hope

that I can report back to you in a month or so and tell you that

it is working fine, that we are getting timely reimbursement, but

I can’t say that at this moment. It is a critical issue for us.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, we have had very little involvement

with FEMA. I will say that three or four days after the hurricane

passed, they were there with fuel. So I can put a feather in their

cap for that, and they have been very helpful in providing fuel.
21

But with Federal Highway and the ER funds, I would like to see

more of the authority shift further down, that somebody on site be

able to make decisions. As I stated earlier, when you are in the

middle of Biloxi, and all of that is going on around you, you need

somebody by your side there. Generally speaking, Federal Highway

has been, but sometimes that answer has to come to Washington

or something, and there is a delay in it.

We would like more authority right there on the ground so that

we can make decisions at the time that they need to be made. For

the most part, it has worked very well, but we have had some stutter steps in that process.

Mr. PETRI. Anyone else? Mr. Hall?

Mr. HALL. I agree with what Director Bradbery touched on and

Commissioner Brown both, the cash flow situation. Get the money

moving. We are spending money we don’t have, and we are just exactly what Director Bradbery said. We are at a point where we

have to start making decisions. Do we start a job down in Tupelo

or somewhere else, or spend the money on the Coast which doesn’t

leave us a lot of options? So whatever can be done to make that

happen.

And one other thing, and I don’t need to get into this with a lot

depth and don’t intend to, but the possibility of expediting some environmental resolution. In other words, when those bridges were

built, Congressman Taylor, they were built a long time ago and put

in that particular place. Well, that might not be the best place for

them right now. Maybe we ought to move them over here, or move

them over there, or budge it a little bit.

But then somebody says, oh, it will take us five years to go

through the environmental process to do that. Well, that is not acceptable. If there is a better place to put it, we need to put it where

it needs to go, the best place, and we need to be able to somehow

expedite that.

I always use the example that the last runway they paved at Atlanta Airport took APAC Construction 30 days to pave it, took 14

years to permit it. We are not in a position that we can do that.

We have got to get stuff built. So we have the pressure of, well,

do you go in there and build it just right where it is because that

is the quickest thing to do, or do you build it where it ought to be?

Mr. VAUGHN. Mr. Chairman, our involvement with FEMA at the

Department of Transportation level is limited, but I can say that

prior to the storm, FEMA was at the table. They helped with evacuation planning, evacuation decisions, preplanning of relief efforts,

and I felt them to be a very, very good partner in our efforts. One

thing we have identified post-storms this year is the ineligibility of

reimbursement from the ER program for our evacuation efforts.

The efforts to reverse lanes or contraflow on I-65 to help with the

evacuation is an expensive undertaking. The Federal Highway Administration has recently issued a ruling that ER funds cannot be

used to pay that because it occurred before the storm. So that

might be an opportunity to look into to maybe provide some additional assistance to the States.

Mr. DEVILLE. Mr. Chairman and all the members of the Committee, I have six things that I can list right off the top that we would

really appreciate if you would help us advance the cause here. First
22

is temporary housing. We have lost over 1,300 employees. Many, as

I said earlier, were dispersed throughout the State and other areas

of the county.

In the process of reestablishing the Transit Authority in the City

of New Orleans, thank God that FEMA, and FTA, and Congress

are coming forth with funding, but due to time constraints and

time lines, sometimes we lose that window of opportunity in getting people back. Some employees have their kids in school. Some

have gotten FEMA grants in other places, and it becomes more of

a challenge to get them back.

But there are many, many willing to come back and want to

come back, but there is no place to put them. So that impacts our

attempt to be successful in moving things quickly, in terms of restoring the transit part as well as the City itself.

Secondly, we have worked very hard. When this first happened,

I got calls from the Federal Transit Administration as well as Mr.

Jamison and others offering help and promising relief as soon as

possible. And in that process, they wanted to know what the numbers were. So the numbers that were requested came at a time

early on when we weren’t even allowed to go back to New Orleans.

So what we have done since then is we have gone back. We are

there now, and we are refining our numbers, and we have good

numbers. And the strike team that I told you about earlier, we are

prepared to move quickly, but I would ask you to encourage those

who are involved to get the numbers back to us that we worked

so hard to provide and get together as well.

Additionally, there is the 9/11 precedent in New York whereby

investment grants were used, using FEMA funds that could be

used for capital and operating. That would help us greatly because

once the FEMA funds run out here in this contract, we are right

back where we started.

Additionally, waiving of match requirements is critical. We have

no economy right now. So certainly, if we were to waive that match

requirement, it would go a long way in helping us get started. The

grant for FTA and DOT authority to enhance, as well as rebuild,

is important so that we are not restricted in that regard. We have

worked with the City, State, and Federal officials, APTA, and other

transit associations trying to organize and formulate these strategies, and we certainly could use your help in moving them forward.

Finally, holding harmless on formula funds due to a population

effects for at least 24 months. I mean we have lost everybody practically, and so our formula funds are going to drop right off the

table very, very soon. So if you could help us in that regard and

at least extend it 24 months, that would go a long way in helping

us in that area.

Mr. PETRI. Just before you respond, those bells mean that we

have got a vote on the floor. We have been informed by BlackBerry

it will probably be about 45 minutes worth of votes. We have about

eight minutes or so before we have to run over. I thought we could

hear Mr. Brashear and then if Mr. Boozman has some questions.

Then if it conforms with your travel schedules, we would like to

adjourn. Mr. Baker, a member of the Committee, can’t be here

until a bit later but will be back after the votes to ask some questions, particularly for the Louisiana people. Why don’t you respond
23

as succinctly as you can? And then, Mr. Boozman will have a

chance to ask questions.

Mr. BRASHEAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, share Secretary

Bradbery’s concern relative to FEMA. My agency started to provide

emergency services the Sunday before Katrina hit and continued

up until recently. We have put in initial requests with FEMA.

I have met with them on a number of occasions, and to my dismay found out that the vehicles that we were providing, they did

not cover the cost of the fuel nor the wages to pay the drivers. So

in a recent newspaper article, I was quoted as saying that I am

draining the fuel out of all of my buses and won’t provide a driver

in the future.

And I say that tongue in cheek, but there is a real serious situation going on relative to what is reimbursable. It is almost like

walking through a maze. We give them our price; they counter. We

give them another price; they counter.

I think at some point, we are going to get to the point where we

settle on what is reimbursable, and it has become very frustrating.

So whatever assistance this Committee can be in helping us navigate that maze would certainly be appreciated.

Mr. BOOZMAN. Mr. Deville, in your testimony, you mentioned the

strike force. Can you tell us what the makeup is of the strike force?

Mr. DEVILLE. Certainly. The strike force is made up of, it is really a public-private group encompassing the Local, City, Federal,

and State key departments, as well as industry leaders who have

experience in catastrophe recovery such as ACNTB, AUCOM, and

others in that particular industry, and additionally the Regional

Transit Authority employees that would compose that group of a

strike team.

Mr. PETRI. Mr. Cummings?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes, Mr. Bradbery, I was reading somewhere in

the New York Times that road crews were being dismissed, in

other words laid off. Is that true?

Mr. BRADBERY. To my knowledge, I have not heard that, and as

far as I am concerned, with respect to DOTD crews, it is not true.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Okay. When we were down there on the Gulf

Coast a few weeks ago, I remember you were really very concerned

about money running out. I guess it has gotten far worse now.

Mr. BRADBERY. Yes, sir, it has. Again, as I mentioned previously,

from our perspective in Louisiana, we are going to go into negative

cash flow in December, about the middle of December. And it is

going to get critical for us if we don’t get an influx of money in

pretty quickly.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Well, we are running out of time, but I am hoping and praying that the Congress will do the right thing. There

are many of us who really want to see the funds flow, and all of

you have been very clear, all of you, about the use of Federal funds

in an effective and efficient way.

I am just praying that we can get through some of this, what we

are going through, so that we can help people and get things on

the right path. But I want to thank all of you for what you are

doing. I know it is tough. It has got to be. I just want to say, thank

you.

Mr. BRADBERY. Thank you, Mr. Cummings.
24

Mr. BOOZMAN. We are going to need to recess now. When we

come back, let me give you a question you can think of, okay? In

September, Congress passed an emergency supplemental appropriations bill providing $62 billion for Katrina-related relief activities. What we would like to talk about how much Federal funding

your States received thus far for the repair and reconstruction of

roads and bridges damaged by the hurricane.

So again, let us pursue that in just a little bit.

The hearing is recessed until 10 until 4:00.

[Recess.]

Mr. PETRI. The Subcommittee will resume. I would first like to

thank our panel for indulging us. The interruption was due to business on the floor of the House, a number of votes on important legislation.

I would now like to recognize my colleague from Baton Rouge,

Representative Baker, for questions.

Mr. BAKER. I thank the Chairman and certainly the members of

the panel for your courtesy in extending your stay. I also appreciate the difficult task each of you have ahead of you, facing an inordinate amount of cataclysmic recovery. I was not able to participate in the hearing earlier, so I hope I do not plow new territory.

Mr. Brashear, do you think that in the Baton Rouge area, with

the 150,000 or 200,000 folks, we are not sure, that are now in the

metropolitan area, that there are adequate resources to provide the

types of transit services that will really facilitate enhancement in

the traffic flows of the community? What is your outlook on, say,

an 18 to 24 month picture of what our transportation plan looks

like?

Mr. BRASHEAR. Thank you, Congressman. I think the quick answer is, no, there aren’t adequate resources right now to address

the increase in population, not only from a congestion standpoint

but from a passenger load standpoint on our system.

We are, in the short-term, seeking assistance from all over this

great Nation of ours from transit properties, looking for assistance

relative to equipment, and then, of course, working with Bill

Deville and the folks over at the New Orleans Regional Transit authority, trying to get the personnel to drive those buses.

So right now, we are struggling to meet the demand. I think,

long-term, we have a goal—myself, Mr. Deville, and others—of creating a true regional transit system, tying the Crescent City into

the capital city henceforth and forevermore. So we have a plan that

we are working on, that we are developing. I think, ultimately,

what you will see is a model system for the rest of this Country.

So we are excited about the future.

Mr. BAKER. Thank you very much.

Secretary Bradbery, one of the things that is of concern to me is,

operationally, what is the effect on the agency, on your department,

in the Orleans Metro Area with regard to employees that would

normally be available to you to conduct simple maintenance activities? Where are we in relation to those concerns?

Mr. BRADBERY. Yes, we have about 200 workers, 200 people and

their families that are affected by this storm, that don’t have

homes in that area. So it has put a strain on our work force there,

trying to get them some place to stay.
25

Mr. BAKER. Excuse me. Are those 200 families and the respective

employee reporting for work now, or are they just not available?

Mr. BRADBERY. No. We have about 135 reporting to work. In

total, we have about 200 families that need to get some homes and

need to get back on their feet. We are getting some help from the

other districts in trying to make things happen there so we can

keep our operations moving.

It is a problem for us. We are working very closely right now

with FEMA to try to get housing on DOTD property to house some

of our people, and that has been a difficult task. We have been trying to do that now for the last six weeks. We are making some

progress, but it is not as fast as I would like.

Mr. BAKER. To what extent are State transportation resources

deployed to help with debris removal? Are you significantly engaged or partially? How does that work?

Mr. BRADBERY. Our initial effort is about over. We have turned

it all over to the contractors.

Mr. BAKER. Okay, great. Is there any scope yet or estimate of

what that total debris removal charge might look like?

Mr. BRADBERY. We are probably looking at a figure anywhere

from $40 to $60 million.

Mr. BAKER. Are sites acquired for the disposition of that material?

Mr. BRADBERY. Well, DEQ is working with us there. We do have

sites, and so that is being worked heavily. Yes, we do have sites.

I can’t tell you exactly where they are, but we do have some.

Mr. BAKER. One of the things you and I have talked about is the

need for enhanced evacuation routes. We all know, regrettably,

these events are going to reoccur. I believe in the plan you submitted for consideration, there were significant additional capacity

projects to get people up north to Baton Rouge and then east-west.

If I am understanding the earlier discussion properly, the earlier funds made available, the $60 billion plus by the Congress, those

resources aren’t available to the department for that type of work?

Mr. BRADBERY. They are not, the $62 billion. The Stafford Act

fundamentally does not provide dollars to be put in FHWA relief

fund. As it relates to Federal Highways, there is no money being

deposited or directed to the emergency relief pot. So I must respectfully really say that Congress simply has not funneled the money

in the proper pot.

Mr. BAKER. What has happened with gasoline tax receipts as a

result of the effects of Katrina in the Orleans area? Has it had yet

a measurable impact on your ability to conduct your business?

Mr. BRADBERY. At the last assessment we did, gasoline income

was fundamentally flat. We anticipate a reduction, not only due to

Katrina but to high gas prices. So we anticipate a hit and thus reduce revenues from gas taxes.

Mr. BAKER. Do you have in hand today a plan to facilitate the

infrastructure problems in Baton Rouge, and what is the scope of

that?

Mr. BRADBERY. We have been talking with the City of Baton

Rouge. Very early on, we knew that we had a congestion problem,

a severe congestion problem. We have got an infrastructure there

that can handle 350,000 to 400,000 people; we now have about
26

700,000 people that we estimate. So we worked with them on their

plan. The status of that is we have included in this package almost

$1 billion to help relieve congestion and enhance commerce and

evacuation routes in and around the Baton Rouge area.

Mr. BAKER. I don’t know that it has been discussed. I am sure

each State representative would go to their own delegation for their

assistance. But it really might be quite helpful, given the magnitude of the problem, and there is Katrina-Rita fatigue and soon

to be Wilma fatigue I bet up here, if we had some sort of regional

transportation response to kind of help us all work together.

Not knowing the conditions or the requirements in our neighboring States, I know you have them, I know it is important that the

requests be storm-related and warranted, not necessarily just increasing capacity because there is an opportunity.

But if we can work together as a Gulf Coast coalition and come

up with a transportation plan that is a consolidated ask, I think

our opportunities to get—I know the Chairman is favorably disposed, and I am speaking really to those not on Transportation who

are ultimately going to have to vote on the floor and would probably be encouraged to see some sort of regional expression of cooperation in making that ask. Specifically, like on the Twin Spans

and the interstate, we are all connected.

It is essential for that interstate to function that it function

across the entire South, not just through our own State. That is

just one of the things that I wanted to suggest to the group.

Mr. Chairman, I don’t want to take extraordinary time, but I did

feel it important to come and make that request to the Secretaries.

If there is a way for us to get together, I think it would helpful for

all of our respective interests. With that, I will yield back, unless

somebody has a comment.

Mr. PETRI. Thank you. I suspect Mr. Bachus may have some additional questions.

One area I was going to ask a question of, but maybe I can do

it as a comment. There was talk earlier about difficulty in perhaps

relocating some facilities to more desirable locations, and the need

for environmental approvals, and how this might create a Catch 22

situation where you need to get the infrastructure in, but if you do

it right, it is not going to be right for the long term; it is not going

to be ideal. We have had hearings on this before.

I believe that the Secretary of Transportation under the authority of the President working with States, there are a number of instances where they do give expedited environmental and other approval processes. It has been done in the case, maybe at the State

level, but it was done with Federal cooperation after the earthquakes in California where they went ahead and redid the transportation infrastructure. Also, in the case of Salt Lake City preparing for the Olympics, they ended up getting together and expediting a lot of things.

Mr. BAKER. Mr. Chairman, on that point, I failed to raise it in

my time and just to put an emphasis on it, Baton Rouge and the

surrounding area is under significant ozone non-attainment problems, and there is considerable question about our ability to construct new capacity projects unless we get some regulatory assistance. The Secretary may want to comment about that. But your ob-
27

servation about assistance with environmental constraints is

hugely important to us.

Mr. PETRI. I can understand there is basic problem which many

people have, which is how much you rebuild in the flood plain and

how much you redeploy assets to try to make the situation as environmentally sensitive and as resistant to the future. Weather is

weather, and the world is the world. We don’t want to keep rebuilding infrastructure every couple of years if the weather is going

to recur, which we have to expect it will. So let us adapt and build

smart, but we are going to have to build.

But leaving that aside, something is going to have to be built

somewhere, and it needs to be done sooner rather than later. In

that connection, certainly, this Committee would be eager to work

with you on any effort that would be needed to help, not set aside

but to telescope that process, so that there was adequate review,

but it wasn’t delay. It was an expedited planning process to get the

job done right as quickly as possible.

It has been done. There are examples for it. There is a procedure

where I think the President can designate a high priority to five

or ten areas or projects. But this is sort of a mega-project which

would probably require working with the State Departments of

Transportation in order to define and facilitate. But I think it is

probably worth taking a look at it in any event.

Mr. Bachus?

Mr. BACHUS. Thank you. I want to ask a few questions of Mr.

Deville and Mr. Brashear. The New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority had 372 buses, is that correct?

Mr. DEVILLE. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. BACHUS. At one time, I read where 200 of them were lost.

Did that come down?

Mr. DEVILLE. There were close to 200 RTA buses that were flooded at our Canal Street Station. We have two major bus facilities,

East New Orleans and Canal Street. Traditionally, our hurricane

plan, evacuation plan calls for us to remove the East New Orleans

buses to a safer site because it floods there more often as opposed

to Canal Street where in history, modern history, had not flooded.

So we put a little over 200 buses or close to 200 buses on the wharf

out of East New Orleans, and we operated out of the Canal Station

with just under 200 buses for the regular service as well as those

we needed to evacuate with.

Mr. BACHUS. Were all of them lost from flooding, or any from

vandalism, or anything else?

Mr. DEVILLE. You see, once the storm was over, we were in pretty decent shape. But once the levees became a problem, and the

flooding got to be a problem, between the night of the storm and

that, there were a number of lay people, so to speak, that commandeered buses to evacuate themselves. They saw the buses,

found out how to start them up and get them running, and took

off. We found some in different parts of the State over the last few

weeks. I witnessed that myself.

The other thing was that the military, the FEMA, and National

Guard that were in New Orleans when nobody else could go in,

they used the buses themselves to transport themselves, the police,

the firemen, etcetera. What happened was that many of those, once
28

they either ran out of gas, or the battery went down, or they busted

an oil pan in the street, they left it there and went and got another

one.

So we do have a lot of damaged buses as a result of that combination of efforts. There are the flooded buses on Canal Street,

just under 200. Then the buses that we had saved on higher

ground at the wharf, a lot of those were commandeered by what

I just said.

Mr. BACHUS. Do you have a new plan now for locating them, say,

out of New Orleans if another hurricane were to approach?

Mr. DEVILLE. Absolutely. First of all, we want to make sure that

we know what kind of protection we are going to have with the

levee system. Secondly, we have a team we put together that is

doing strategic planning in that regard. For instance, there is no

sense in locating back at Plaza and East New Orleans because we

know it is going to flood.

So we are going to move our headquarters to maybe the top of

the Canal Street building where it is safe, or the Napoleon area

where it didn’t flood at all. Plus, the strategy is to move those five

days ahead of time. Once the storm hits the Gulf, like this particular storm that came, we didn’t know until Friday night that it

would actually come to New Orleans.

Mr. BACHUS. There are specific plans that would avoid a lot of

what happened?

Mr. DEVILLE. Yes. Absolutely.

Mr. BACHUS. That rolling stock in the transportation facilities,

was that insured?

Mr. DEVILLE. Yes. Yes, sir.

Mr. BACHUS. So you will receive reimbursement from insurance

for that?

Mr. DEVILLE. We have started to receive some reimbursements,

yes. We are in that process now. In fact, we are trying to get the

FTA and the Congressional folks to release the reports that we are

working together on so that we can get it to the insurance companies.

Mr. BACHUS. So you will get a certain amount of insurance

funds, and then anything above that, you will seek reimbursement?

Mr. DEVILLE. Precisely. We have already applied to FEMA, and

we are waiting for those numbers.

Mr. BACHUS. Now presently, in Baton Rouge and New Orleans,

you all are not charging fare on buses, is that right?

Mr. DEVILLE. I will let Mr. Brashear talk about Baton Rouge. In

New Orleans, we were completely wiped out, not only the buses

and the streetcars but the facilities to operate from.

Mr. BACHUS. Right.

Mr. DEVILLE. So as the military cleared things up, and the National Guard and FEMA are starting to allow people back, then of

course we lost over 180 vehicles in that area as well as homes.

Transportation is needed. People have a lot of things, their personal belongings.

Mr. BACHUS. Sure, and I am not questioning. I guess my question is, you are not presently charging fares?

Mr. DEVILLE. In New Orleans, no, we are not.
29

Mr. BACHUS. Do you know, is there any thought to when you will

resume charging fares?

Mr. DEVILLE. Well, that is a tough question. Initially, FEMA has

agreed to do it for 6 months, 24 weeks to be exact. And of course,

as we proceed and get closer to that deadline, we will reevaluate.

Under the program management plan, we will constantly reevaluate it on a weekly basis.

Mr. BACHUS. Will you be reimbursed for that, for the lost fares?

Mr. DEVILLE. No, we are not being reimbursed for lost fares at

this point in time.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay. Now, the streetcars, you just made reference

to that. Of course, the streetcars are absolutely essential, I think,

to restore the tourism.

Mr. DEVILLE. It is a structure.

Mr. BACHUS. Anybody who has been to New Orleans knows how

important they are. Can you give us a time frame on when the trolley streetcar lines will be back in operation, say to as they were

before Hurricane Katrina?

Mr. DEVILLE. We have currently one of our contractors evaluating the trucks, that is, the components and their circuitry and electronics that are below the seating under the vehicle itself. That

process is not completed, but we think that within several months,

we can probably have an answer and a response, and get it fixed.

But in the meantime, we found out that the St. Charles streetcars were not flooded, were not damaged, and are operable. However, the line, the St. Charles streetcar line, the overhead wiring

that powers them was destroyed pretty badly.

Mr. BACHUS. Sure.

Mr. DEVILLE. Fortunately, FTA had already awarded us a grant

to restore and replace. So we can begin that immediately, to restore

that, and it will probably take about a year or so. The plan would

be, if the Canal Street cars were all flooded in the Canal area, we

are asking for permission to use the St. Charles cars on the line

that is still the Canal line. The challenge is that they are not ADA

accessible.

So what we would like to do is run parallel service with buses

and para-transit vans and utilize that streetcar. So people can see

that the City is coming. The infrastructure is starting to come

back. And this would be for a short term, temporarily.

Mr. BACHUS. Will you need waivers to do that?

Mr. DEVILLE. That is what we are seeking. Yes, sir.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay. Would that be a Federal waiver?

Mr. DEVILLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay. I guess this will be my last question in that

regard. You mentioned the need for a waiver in that case. I think

Mr. Bradbery mentioned the need for waivers. Well, let me say

this. If you recall, New York City received a number of Federal relief from a lot of regulatory red tape and regulatory relief, and I

think the gentleman from Mississippi mentioned the need for some

of that today.

Have you all looked at what New York was offered and the different regulatory relief that they were granted? Do you maybe have

a list, or could you supply us a list of what Federal regulatory requirements you need relief from, and why you think it is nec-
30

essary? I want to ask you. You might just mention one or two, but

I think a listing of those. And also, were you all aware that New

York Metropolitan Area was given a substantial number of Federal

regulatory waivers?

Mr. BRADBERY. We will do our best to put a list together and get

it to you. The one that is of most interest to us is a waiver on the

conformity determination as to the Clean Air Act. For us, it is particularly critical because of the surge of population into Baton

Rouge, in particular. The projects that we want to do to try to relieve some of that congestion are going to require that we receive

this waiver. The City of New York was granted that waiver after

9/11, and we believe that we can get it granted as well.

Mr. BACHUS. Have you been granted those waivers yet?

Mr. BRADBERY. No, we have not.

Mr. BACHUS. All right.

Mr. BRADBERY. Congressman Baker has introduced a bill in the

House to address this.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay, good. Well, Congressman Baker thinks of a

lot of things. He is very ahead of the curve on these things. So that

is very good.

We appropriated $62 billion in early September. Of that, I would

ask the highway officials, of the amount of expenditures you have

had, maybe what percentage have you been reimbursed, and what

is the total amount of Federal dollars that you have been reimbursed? Now, all that $62 billion was not highway money for

bridges and roads, but we were told, obviously, that was on of the

major appropriations within that bill.

Mr. BRADBERY. On the Emergency Relief Fund side by Federal

Highways, none of that $62 billion. The Stafford Act does not allow

any of that money to be put into that fund. Consequently, Federal

Highways had $10 million in that fund, and they gave $5 million

of that $10 million to Louisiana and $5 million to Mississippi.

To date, that is all that we have received relative to monies from

the Emergency Relief Fund. Louisiana has a need of $1.1 billion

that has to come from the Emergency Relief Fund, unless it is appropriated in a different way.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay. So I guess you have to pay these out of the

State coffers, the money, and then just hope for reimbursement.

Mr. BRADBERY. Yes, sir, that is what we are doing now. That is

why I am saying our cash flow is going to become a critical issue

here fairly soon. On the FEMA side, the $62 billion side, to date,

our department, our agency has only gotten $1.1 million back. We

have exposed out there. We are going to have exposed on debris

cleanup and so forth, at least $360 million.

Mr. BACHUS. What pressures has that put on both the State of

Mississippi and the State of Louisiana? I am not leaving Alabama

out, but it is a much smaller scale.

Mr. BRADBERY. For us in the State of Louisiana, it puts a lot of

pressure on us because it jeopardizes the normal transportation development program. If I have to take money from those pots, then

I don’t do anything else in the State. That whole program is now

at risk. I also have the risk of losing Federal dollars because I don’t

have State monies to match. So it is a real critical issue for us.
31

Mr. HIGGINS. We are in exactly the same boat in Mississippi. We spent $26.1 million. So far, we have gotten $5 million back. Also,

another thing that my colleagues asked me to pass on to you all.

I forgot to mention it earlier with Mr. Brown’s testimony. We have

been told for the eastbound lanes of Highway 90, we would be reimbursed 100 percent, but for the westbound lanes, we won’t be.

We haven’t figured that one out yet.

Mr. BACHUS. Okay.

Mr. BROWN. We haven’t been reimbursed for any of it yet.

Mr. PETRI. Mr. Baker, anything else?

Mr. BAKER. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to get clarification. I think

I heard you say that eastbound would be reimbursable, but westbound lanes on the same route are not reimbursable?

Mr. HIGGINS. That is what they told me.

Mr. BAKER. And they have not given a written explanation as to

why?

Mr. HIGGINS. No, not yet.

Mr. BAKER. May I inquire who said this to you?

Mr. HIGGINS. The FHWA folks.

Mr. BAKER. Was this I-90 or I-10?

Mr. HIGGINS. This is 90, Highway 90 down on Beach.

Mr. BAKER. Okay, Highway 90.

Mr. HIGGINS. Yes, right.

Mr. BACHUS. I guess if we are going north-south, it is just a

guess whether that will work.

[Laughter.]

Mr. HIGGINS. I don’t know. It is very frustrating.

Mr. PETRI. I thank you all very much for coming here and discussing this. I really want to, again, underline how appreciative of

the time you have taken to come up here and how much we understand the strain that not only you but your employees in your departments, as well as the citizens of your states, have undergone.

It has been a traumatic time.

As you know, the Congress as a whole has responded twice with

two large appropriations of money. It is causing a certain amount

of turmoil up here in the budget process because there is this perception somehow that we are ladling tremendous amounts of

money out without figuring out how to pay for it, and really just

sort of putting it on the tab without people really understanding

that very little of this money and a percentage of the $72 billion

that has been appropriated has actually spent.

Secondly, unless we do spend money, obviously prudently but

quickly and reasonably, to get infrastructure and to get the economy moving again, it is going to be costing us a lot more money

in terms of economic loss because the people cannot have jobs if

they don’t have roads and other infrastructure. If they don’t have

jobs, they can’t pay the taxes, they can’t pay their other obligations,

and so it goes.

So we are not going to really save any money or anything by not

moving as quickly as possible to spend what it takes up front to

get the economy back on its feet so that you have revenue flowing,

we have revenue flowing. People aren’t going to be paying Federal

taxes in that region if they don’t have jobs. So some of it will be

paid back just because people will be paying in once the economies
32

are restored. We shouldn’t ignore that part of the equation, though

it has been ignored largely in this discussion.

In any event, we are obviously eager to work with you and with

your delegation members to do whatever needs to be done at this

end of the Hill to make sure that there are as few glitches as possible in terms of actually getting money flowing to solve some of

the problems you are talking about.

Mr. BACHUS. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. PETRI. Yes.

Mr. BACHUS. One thing I might add that Mr. Vaughn mentioned,

as I understand it, FEMA does not reimburse for evacuation-related expenditures.

Mr. VAUGHN. That is correct. The emergency relief funds that

come through Federal Highway are only available after the disaster. They are not available to help us in pre-disaster preparation.

Mr. BACHUS. And it doesn’t provide any funding for that?

Mr. VAUGHN. It does not.

Mr. BACHUS. Which is what we ought to really encourage. We

ought to encourage as much evacuation as we can get. That appears to be a pretty penny-wise and pound-foolish thing to do, particularly when like in the case of Mississippi, a lot of the evacuation was people from Louisiana. We have people going from one

State to another. In cases, you have people coming from Alabama

and Mississippi into Louisiana.

We certainly ought to fund something like that. That would avoid

this and encourage those things to happen, and to be adequately

funding so we can not only save lives and property, but encourage

people to get out and allow them to get on their way. If you saw

all the films, all of us did, a tremendous amount of frustration from

people being caught on the roads and the delays that were taken.

If we are going to encourage orderly evacuations, it is certainly

something we need to reconsider.

Mr. HIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, if I may, the good news out of that

is that this is the first time we have tried contraflow in Mississippi,

and from our side, it worked well. I understand, Secretary

Bradbery, it did in Louisiana. So it is something that yes, we absolutely need to do it every time now that storm like this threatens,

and it is expensive.

Mr. BRADBERY. It is expensive. I think the relationship that we

have with Mississippi to do that is working great. It is a sign of

partnership and learning from each other, and it was really successful in terms of evacuation this last time.

Mr. PETRI. Very good. We thank you again for your testimony

and for your response to the questions today. The hearing is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 4:50 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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