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82-114 PDF 2003

S. HRG. 107–710

MARKUP OF PROCUREMENT, TRAINING AND

COUNSELING, DROUGHT RELIEF, AND OTHER

SMALL BUSINESS LEGISLATION

MARKUP

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND

ENTREPRENEURSHIP

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JULY 24, 2002

Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts, Chairman

CARL LEVIN, Michigan

TOM HARKIN, Iowa

JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut

PAUL D. WELLSTONE, Minnesota

MAX CLELAND, Georgia

MARY LANDRIEU, Louisiana

JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina

MARIA CANTWELL, Washington

JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri

CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri

CONRAD BURNS, Montana

ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah

OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine

MICHAEL ENZI, Wyoming

PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois

MIKE CRAPO, Idaho

GEORGE ALLEN, Virginia

JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada

PATRICIA R. FORBES, Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel

EMILIA DISANTO, Republican Staff Director

PAUL H. COOKSEY, Republican Chief Counsel

(III)

CONTENTS

OPENING STATEMENTS

Page

Kerry, The Honorable John F., Chairman, Committee on Small Business

and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from Massachussetts ... 1

Bond, The Honorable Christopher S., Ranking Member, Committee on Small

Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from Missouri ....................................................................................................................... 3

Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia ................ 8

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Anderson, Cathy, assistant general manager, Lake Marion Resort and Marina, Santee, SC, letter ........................................................................................ 92

Atkins, Butch, Atkins Boat Landing, Monks Corner, SC, letter ......................... 94

Black, Ed, president and CEO, Computer & Communications Industry Association, Washington, D.C., letter ......................................................................... 71

Brady, The Honorable Robert, a United States Congressman from Pennsylvania, excerpts from Entrepreneurship Education: Current Developments,

Future Directions .................................................................................................. 19

Burch, Leonard, chairman, Southern Ute Indian Tribe, Ignacio, CO, letter ...... 30

Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia

Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 8

Letter to the Honorable John F. Kerry ........................................................... 52

Letter to Members of the Senate .................................................................... 58

Denlinger, Stephen, CEO, Latin American Management Association, Washington, D.C.

Letter in support of S. 1994 ............................................................................. 50

Letter in support of S. 2753 ............................................................................. 62

Dorr, Tom, director, Western Washington University Small Business Development Center, Bellingham, WA, letter ................................................................. 34

Easley, The Honorable Michael, governor of the State of North Carolina,

Raleigh, NC, letter ............................................................................................... 74

Guinn, The Honorable Kenny, governor of the State of Nevada, Carson City,

NV, letter .............................................................................................................. 76

Hall, Tex, president, National Congress of American Indians, Washington,

D.C., letter ............................................................................................................ 32

Hodges, The Honorable Jim, governor of the State of South Carolina, Columbia, SC, letter ....................................................................................................... 82

Homer, Pete, president and CEO, National Indian Business Association,

Washington, D.C., letter ...................................................................................... 31

Hudson, Lane, policy analyst, Office of the Governor, State of South Carolina,

Columbia, SC, economic impact surveys ............................................................ 84

Johnson, The Honorable Tim, a United States Senator from South Dakota,

letter ...................................................................................................................... 29

Keppeler, H.K. Bruss, attorney at law, Honolulu, HI, Comments for the

Record ................................................................................................................... 46

Kerry, The Honorable John F.

Opening statement ........................................................................................... 1

Letter to Members of the Senate .................................................................... 58

Letter to the President of the United States .................................................. 98

S. 2466 summary and text ............................................................................... 102

S. 1994 summary, text, and amendment ........................................................ 111

S. 2753 summary, text, and amendment ........................................................ 125

S. 2734 summary, text, and amendments ....................................................... 161

Page

IV

Kerry, The Honorable John F. —Continued

S. 2483 summary and text ............................................................................... 171

S. 2335 summary, text, and amendments ....................................................... 184

H.R. 2666 summary and text ........................................................................... 222

Kropf, Dennis, Lanes Shopping Center, Manning, SC, letter .............................. 97

McCracken, Todd, president, National Small Business United, Washington,

D.C.

Letter in support of S. 2483 ............................................................................. 55

Letter in support of S. 2753 ............................................................................. 68

Letter in support of S. 2734 ............................................................................. 100

Mleynek, Darryl, State director, Hawaii, Small Business Development Center

Network, Hilo, HI, Comments for the Record .................................................... 46

Neese, Terry, president, Kasoff, Barbara, vice president, Women Impacting

Public Policy, Oklahoma City, OK, letter .......................................................... 72

Nicolai, Matthew, president and CEO, Calista Corporation, Anchorage, AK,

Comments for the Record .................................................................................... 43

Robbins, Kenneth, president, National Center for American Indian Enterprise

Development, Mesa, AZ, Comments for the Record .......................................... 37

Patton, The Honorable Paul, governor of the State of Kentucky, Frankfort,

KY, letter .............................................................................................................. 78

Sandefur, John, State director, Alabama Small Business Consortium, Birmingham, AL, letter ............................................................................................. 56

Sweeney, The Honorable John, a United Sates Congressman from New York,

letter ...................................................................................................................... 53

Turpin, James, director of government relations, American Subcontractors

Association, Inc., Alexandria, VA, letter ............................................................ 67

Wade, Thomas, Omni Maring Electronics, North Charleston, SC, letter ........... 93

Wallace, Robert, executive director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United

States, Washington, D.C., letter ......................................................................... 69

Weiss, Norman, Blacks Landing, LLC, Cross, SC, letter ..................................... 95

Wilfong, Henry, president, National Association of Small Disadvantaged Businesses, Silver Spring, MD

Letter in support of S. 1994 ............................................................................. 49

Comments for the Record ................................................................................ 63

Wilson, Don, president, Association of Small Business Development Centers,

Washington, D.C., letter ...................................................................................... 54

Wilhite, Donald, director, Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources,

School of Natural Resource Sciences, University of Nebraska at Lincoln,

Lincoln, NE, letter ............................................................................................... 80

Women Impacting Public Policy, Oklahoma City, OK, Comments for the

Record ................................................................................................................... 60

(1)

MARKUP OF PROCUREMENT, TRAINING AND

COUNSELING, DROUGHT RELIEF, AND

OTHER SMALL BUSINESS LEGISLATION

WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 2002

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,

Washington, D.C.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in room

SR–428A, Russell Senate Office Building, The Honorable John F.

Kerry (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Lieberman, Wellstone, Cleland,

Landrieu, Edwards, Cantwell, Carnahan, Bond, Burns, Bennett,

Snowe, Enzi, Crapo, Allen, and Ensign.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN F. KERRY,

CHAIRMAN, SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND

ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A UNITED STATES SENATOR

FROM MASSACHUSSETTS

Chairman KERRY. We will come to order, and I thank our colleague Senator Bond for being here promptly, and hopefully our

colleagues will get here. We have a very small window to try to

conduct business here today, which is not unusual for this Committee, and I guess not unusual in the Senate nowadays. But it is

going to be particularly important that we try to get staff to get

their Members here, if we could, on both sides of the aisle, because

we really have about a half-hour window given the markup that is

taking place in the Governmental Affairs Committee, which commands the attention of a number of Members on the committee.

I want to thank all of the staff who have worked diligently on

doing this, and particularly Emilia DiSanto, Paul Cooksey and

Cordell Smith of the Republican staff, and Kevin Wheeler, John

DaSilva, Patty Forbes, and company for helping to work out and

get some compromise on a lot of the issues that are in front of us

today. I think it is a good statement about the good faith of the

Committee in trying to do that.

We have seven pieces of legislation and a number of amendments

before the Committee. I hope we can move through them, as I said,

as rapidly as possible. I am not going to make a long opening. But

given the fact that we don’t have a sufficient number of Members

here to even begin to talk about the amendments, maybe we should

give long openings, Senator Bond.

[Laughter.]

Senator BOND. A long opening, OK.

2

Chairman KERRY. The seven bills before the Committee are

S. 2335, the Native American Small Business Development Act, introduced by Senator Johnson and myself, as well as a number of

other Senators, which will establish a statutory program for Native

Americans at the SBA and create innovative grant programs to

help them open and run small businesses. I think this is a very important effort, a step to try to alleviate what we all know have been

just pervasive and persistent, tough economic conditions in many

of the Native American communities where unemployment rates

are over 40 percent, very common.

Second, S. 2734, the Small Business Drought Relief Act, introduced by myself, Senator Hollings, Senator Landrieu, and cosponsored by Senators Bond, Edwards, Carnahan, Enzi, Cleland,

Lieberman, and Ensign, which will deal with the devastating impact of the drought conditions which a lot of people have not really

noticed except those in the areas, but they have really had a terrible impact in certain parts of the country.

S. 2466, the Small Business Federal Contractor Safeguard Act,

introduced by myself, Senator Bond, Senator Carnahan, and Senator Collins, which is designed to try to help ensure that unnecessary contract bundling doesn’t deny a lot of small businesses procurement opportunities. We have talked about this a number of

times in the Committee. We want to try to close the loopholes in

the current definition of a bundled contract.

S. 1994, The Combined 8(a) and HUBZone Priority Preference

Act, introduced by myself and Senator Bond, which is intended to

re-establish the preference previously given to firms with an 8(a)

and HUBZone certification under the original HUBZone rule, that

was recently slated for elimination by the SBA, and we would like

to keep that.

S. 2483, the National Small Business Regulatory Assistance Act

of 2002, introduced by Senator Cleland, myself, and a number of

other Senators, to allow Small Business Development Centers to

provide small businesses with confidential, free-of-charge, regulatory compliance assistance.

H.R. 2666, the Vocational and Technical Entrepreneurship Development Act, introduced by Congressman Brady of Pennsylvania,

which passed the House on October 2nd last year. This is legislation that would allow Small Business Development Centers to provide training to vocational educational students to acquire business

skills in addition to their technical ones and open their own shops.

Finally, the Small and Disadvantaged Business Ombudsman Act,

introduced by myself, Senators Bond, Cleland, Cantwell, Bingaman, and Carnahan, to protect the interests of small business in

the Federal procurement marketplace.

Senator Bond, do you want to add anything to that?

Senator Cleland, welcome. Glad to have you here.

Senator CLELAND. Thank you very much.

3

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER S.

BOND, RANKING MEMBER, SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL

BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A UNITED

STATES SENATOR FROM MISSOURI

Senator BOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the

chance to share a few thoughts as the crowd is gathering.

As you noted, we do have a number of markups this morning. In

addition to the Governmental Affairs Homeland Security, there is

a HELP Committee markup, there is an Energy and Water Committee markup. Senator Mikulski and I are in the middle of the

VA, HUD, and if you haven’t gotten your list of strategic investments for Massachusetts—and I would say you are one of the few,

but we always appreciate the attention of our colleagues when that

important bill comes before us.

I have some concerns I want to share with you. The bills before

us would create a new ombudsman office at SBA, would re-create

a system of Technical Assistance Centers for entrepreneurs in Indian country. In fact, S. 2335 would create three programs to replace the old Tribal Business Information Centers the SBA

defunded earlier this year. We would dramatically expand the

scope and reach of the SBA disaster loan programs and impose new

responsibilities on SBDCs.

Many of us might like the goals of some of these changes, but

outside of this room, I think it is fair to note that a different budget

reality prevails. The Commerce, State, Justice Appropriations SubCommittee has come nowhere close to the funding levels we would

like to see. The 7(a) loan program is being hacked in half, and

funding is falling short of the needs for other core SBA programs.

While we disagree, I think, on a bipartisan basis in this Committee with what is happening in the CJS bill, we know one of the

reasons it is happening: We are facing an unexpected war on terrorism at a high cost. We have to pay the bills for that. The American people expect no less.

This further squeezes other Government programs, and we have

to be careful to avoid expanding existing programs to assure that

we can make a compelling case for their funding.

For example, we cannot afford to replace the old Tribal Business

Program with three new ones. I appreciate the Chairman’s working

with us to pare that back to two programs, which is more realistic.

But I still think we are going to have to look at the budget realities.

Next, I don’t think we ought to be creating new offices that duplicate existing staffs. We already have numerous small business advocates in procurement. Every agency has an Office of Small, Disadvantaged Business Utilization. We have procurement center representatives, PCRs, at contracting offices, but not enough of them.

We have small business specialists within the agency procurement

staffs as well. We have the regular SBA Office of Government Contracting and Business Development. I question whether we need to

start a new office.

We have worked with the Chairman on streamlining the bill a

bit and putting the procurement ombudsman in the existing Office

of Advocacy. Some of the other functions would be reassigned in

the regular SBA Contracting Program Office. For example, agenVerDate 11-MAY-2000 12:53 Jan 31, 2003 Jkt 082114 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 C:\SBA\82114.TXT SSC3 PsN: SSC3
4

cies that fall short of their small business goals would have to negotiate goal attainment programs, not just keep falling short year

in and year out. That is a good idea. This relates to program management, so we assign that role to the program managers at SBA.

This is definitely an improvement over where we are.

Some bills could be improved if we had time to look at them. The

Small Business Drought Relief bill, S. 2734, was introduced late in

the day on July 16. It is a week old. We know that it isn’t ready

to report to the Senate. Certainly I share the Chairman’s concern

that small businesses have been unnecessarily restricted in

drought relief. A similar problem arose in the SDB Ombudsman

bill. Although we have been reviewing earlier drafts, we cosponsored the original bill. We didn’t get the final until Thursday night,

and we were working on a substitute, and we don’t know what—

we are still trying to figure out the final language.

Since this markup was announced, however, we have made some

real progress on some of these areas, and it seems much of this has

been worked out. We have reached a deal. It should not have been

as painful, and I am hopeful in the future we could make sure that

we have the hearings and the roundtables to prepare us for any

problems that might arise, either in the Committee or, frankly,

when we get to the floor and when we get to the appropriations

process, which authorizing without being able to fund is a hollow

step.

We do need to have a legislative history because with a blank

slate we are not in as strong a position to go to the appropriators

to make it a funding priority.

Finally, a point about the process. In the past we have often

voted to report bills en bloc as soon as we get a quorum subject to

further amendment. Given the lack of legislative record on several

of these items, I question that approach today. I suggest that we

deal with each bill separately and each amendment to each bill.

Then we can vote to report the measures en bloc at that point.

Members of this Committee have offered some significant amendments, and I have myself. In some cases, we have been able to negotiate an agreement in advance, but I think these issues ought to

be heard. I really think that trying to report them all at once is

problematic given some of the problems I see in this bill. Frankly,

just this morning, we received a letter from the SBA raising real

questions about S. 2483 and H.R. 2666. These are measures which

significantly expand and bring SBDCs into new areas, and I have

some problems with that.

No. 1, the SBDCs provide a vital role in providing business assistance, and we haven’t been able to get enough funding for those.

I think as the SBA has pointed out, the functions that we seek to

place on the SBDC in these bills are duplicated elsewhere. EPA

has a strong program for regulatory assistance. SBDC, to my

knowledge, doesn’t have that expertise. Second, on vocational training and assistance, SBA has not been in that business, and the

SBA suggests that this is more appropriately funded in the education area where they are equipped to do vocational training.

With that, I look forward to working with the Chairman and the

Committee on these measures, and I appreciate the chance to work

together.

5

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. Senator Bond, thank you. Those are legitimate

concerns that you expressed, and I think that we have worked

through a great many of the concerns. I know that there is an

amendment that you and I are cosponsoring on a number of these

efforts to address some of those concerns, and obviously I regret the

compactness of the timing. It is just the way it is falling around

here right now as we are all under pressure time-wise. These

issues are important. They have been around for a while, so they

are not really first blush in many respects.

What I would like to do, because we do have this very short window—Senator Lieberman is here. He has to go chair the markup

of the Homeland Security, and several Members here need to be

part of that. So I would like to first begin by asking consent to

waive the Cordon rule and for staff to be able to make technical

and conforming amendments to matters that are acted on at the

markup. Without objection?

Senator BOND. Without objection.

Chairman KERRY. So ordered.

Now I would like to call up S. 2734, the Small Business Drought

Relief bill and the Kerry-Bond substitute amendment, and then I

want to call up—I would like to see if we could pass that amendment by voice vote. I think we have agreement on that, and then

call up the Levin amendment and see if Senator Levin could address any concerns anyone has on that.

So is there any debate with respect to the Kerry-Bond substitute

amendment? If not, all those in favor, say aye?

[A chorus of ayes.]

Chairman KERRY. Opposed, nay?

[No response.]

Chairman KERRY. The ayes have it. The amendment is adopted,

and I now call up the Levin amendment.

Senator Levin.

Senator LEVIN. Mr. Chairman, let me thank you and Senator

Bond. I understand that this will be an acceptable subject to some

of the comments that have been made, some of the concerns which

have been raised. We are adding the word ‘‘drought’’ to the term

‘‘disaster,’’ and that means now that we will have as a definition

of ‘‘disaster’’ explosions, fires, windstorms and so forth, and

drought. What I want to add by my amendment is water levels in

the Great Lakes, which are at a disastrously low point now. We

have got the same kind of problem there as commercial fishery failures have had along our oceans.

At times we do include ocean conditions resulting in closure of

customary fishing waters already in the term ‘‘disaster.’’ We think

this fits with the term ‘‘disaster’’ when you have these disastrously

low water levels in the Great Lakes which have caused such damage to our marinas and to our commercial fishing. So that is the

gist of our amendment, that in addition to adding the word

‘‘drought,’’ which in there pursuant to this bill, that we add the

word—that we add the disastrously low water levels in the Great

Lakes.

Chairman KERRY. Is there any further debate?

6

Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, I understand my colleague from

Michigan has some serious problems with this, but this, frankly, is

a major concern, not just for the Great Lakes and not just for the

SBA.

No. 1, when we have low water on the Missouri River, all hell

breaks loose, and we have got municipalities and problems. We

have got small shipping operations that face problems. There was

a tremendous problem in agriculture this spring at one point because of low water. Fertilizer wasn’t coming up. The terminals

have had real problems. Our friends and our colleagues in the West

are continually talking about their problems with low water levels.

The second problem I would raise is what this does to the overall

cost of disaster. I have the pleasure, at least until we reorganize

the Government and move FEMA to somebody else’s Appropriations SubCommittee, of funding disasters in the VA, HUD Appropriations bill. Really, I don’t have a fix yet on how much this would

cost, what the impact would be, and how it would affect other areas

where low water levels are a serious problem.

I don’t in the least disagree with the concern that our colleague

from Michigan has, but I would propose to accept this amendment

because this bill is very important and that we get it done. I assure

the Chairman and the Senator from Michigan that we will work

with him. We have got to find out what the impact is and how

many others—if this puppy gets to the floor, I can see a lot of love

coming for it from others suffering from low water levels.

So for the purpose of this markup, I would recommend we accept

it and continue to work on it. You don’t have low water problems

in Louisiana, do you?

Senator LANDRIEU. We never have water problems in Louisiana.

Chairman KERRY. Senator Bond, thank you. I really appreciate

that, and I particularly appreciate the cooperative spirit of trying

to move this along, and we recognize the difficulties of the funding.

Is there any further debate on the Levin amendment? If there is

not, we will proceed to a vote. All those in favor, say aye?

[A chorus of ayes.]

Chairman KERRY. Opposed, nay?

[No response.]

Chairman KERRY. The ayes have it and the amendment is adopted.

We have an amendment by Senator Edwards to the same bill.

Senator EDWARDS. A very simple amendment, Mr. Chairman. We

have had serious problems, as many others have, with drought in

North Carolina. Basically, all this amendment says is, if the Governor applies to the SBA for drought assistance and drought relief,

that they will get an answer within 30 days, which I think makes

sense. One of the problems has been getting a timely answer, and

we just want to make sure that folks get an answer when they

make a request.

Chairman KERRY. Is there any debate on the amendment?

Senator BOND. No objection.

Chairman KERRY. If not, all those in favor of the amendment,

say aye?

[A chorus of ayes.]

Chairman KERRY. Opposed, nay?

7

[No response.]

Chairman KERRY. The ayes have it and the amendment is adopted.

Senator EDWARDS. Mr. Chairman, I also ask that Senator Stevens and Senator Allen be added as cosponsors to the amendments.

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, so ordered.

We now have 10 Members present, and I would like to move en

bloc, if I may, to a Committee vote on five bills as follows, en bloc,

and then we will return to the completion of the drought amendments if they are not—and then we have Senator Cleland’s bill,

and very quickly, the Vocational Tech bill. So I appreciate

everybody’s cooperation here.

The five bills we would vote on en bloc are: S. 2335, Native American Small Business Development Act, as amended; S. 2466, Small

Business Federal Contractor Safeguard Act; S. 2734, the Small

Business Drought Relief Act, with the substitute amendment and

as amended by Senator Levin and Senator Edwards; S. 1994, the

Combined 8(a) and HUBZone Priority Preference Act, with the

Bond-Kerry amendment; and S. 2753, the Small and Disadvantaged

Business Ombudsman Act, with the Committee substitute by Senator Bond and myself.

The clerk will call the roll.

The Clerk. Mr. Levin?

Senator LEVIN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Levin, aye. Mr. Harkin?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy. Mr. Lieberman?

Senator LIEBERMAN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Lieberman, aye. Mr. Wellstone?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Wellstone, aye, by proxy. Mr. Cleland?

Senator CLELAND. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Cleland, aye. Ms. Landrieu?

Senator LANDRIEU. Aye.

The Clerk. Ms. Landrieu, aye. Mr. Edwards?

Senator EDWARDS. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Edwards, aye. Ms. Cantwell?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Ms. Cantwell, aye, by proxy. Mrs. Carnahan?

Senator CARNAHAN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mrs. Carnahan, aye. Mr. Bond?

Senator BOND. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Bond, aye. Mr. Burns?

Senator BURNS. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Burns, aye. Mr. Bennett?

Senator BENNETT. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Bennett, aye. Ms. Snowe?

[No response.]

The Clerk. Mr. Enzi?

Senator ENZI. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Enzi, aye. Mr. Fitzgerald?

Senator BOND. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye, by proxy. Mr. Crapo?

Senator CRAPO. Aye.

8

The Clerk. Mr. Crapo, aye. Mr. Allen?

Senator BOND. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Allen, aye, by proxy. Mr. Ensign?

Senator BOND. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Ensign, aye, by proxy. Mr. Chairman?

Chairman KERRY. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, aye.

Chairman KERRY. Let me just see—I think we will be OK. Can

other Members stay for about 5 minutes? I think we can really——

Senator LEVIN. Yes, 5 minutes.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you very, very much.

The vote is announced?

The Clerk. Eighteen ayes, zero nays.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you.

I now call up Senator Cleland’s bill, S. 2483, National Small

Business Regulatory Act.

Senator Cleland.

Senator CLELAND. Mr. Chairman, thank you and your staff for

working with me and Congressman Sweeney and the Association

of Small Business Development Centers to put together the Senate

version of the National Small Business Regulatory Assistance Act.

S. 2483 makes substantial improvements to the House-passed

version of the legislation, including an improved funding formula

to ensure all States participating in the pilot program receive resources to run the program effectively, a streamlined study on the

types of regulatory assistance provided to small businesses under

the pilot program, a revamped provision on privacy rights for

SBDC clients derived from a memorandum of understanding between the SBDCs and the SBA, as well as technical changes such

as updating the list of where SBDC services are provided.

I believe the support expressed for S. 2483 by a number of the

Small Business Development Centers around the country, their association, National Small Businesses United, the National Association of Self-Employed, and the chair of the National Steering Committee of the Small Business Ombudsman Small Business Assistance Program, as well as the letter from the House sponsors of the

bill, Congressman Sweeney, Republican of New York, requesting

the Committee markup S. 2483 are overwhelming and indicative of

the strong grass-roots support for my legislation.

It is no secret that small businesses want to comply with Federal

regulations, but often lack the knowledge of how to do so. S. 2483

will allow these small businesses to work with their trusted SBDC

counselor who can provide confidential, free-of-charge, regulatory

compliance assistance.

I once again thank you for agreeing to my request to mark up

this legislation. I believe the resources we provide under this pilot

program will do a lot of good for our small businesses as they seek

to comply with Federal regulations.

[The prepared comments of Senator Cleland follows:]

OPENING TALKING POINTS ON S. 2483, THE NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS REGULATORY

ASSISTANCE ACT

Mr. Chairman, my thanks to you and your staff for working with me, Congressman Sweeney and the Association of Small Business Development Centers to put

9

together the Senate version of the National Small Business Regulatory Assistance

Act.

S. 2483 makes substantial improvements to the House passed version of this legislation, including an improved funding formula to ensure all states participating in

the pilot program receive resources to run the program effectively; a streamlined

study on the types of regulatory assistance provided to small businesses under the

pilot program; a revamped provision on privacy rights for SBDC clients, derived

from a Memorandum of Understanding between the SBDCs and the Small Business

Administration; as well as technical changes, such as updating the list of where

SBDC services are provided.

I believe the support expressed for S. 2483 by a number of the Small Business Development Centers around the country, their association, National Small Business

United, the National Association of the Self Employed, and the chair of the National

Steering Committee of the Small Business Ombudsman/Small Business Assistance

Program, as well as the letter from the House sponsor of the bill, Congressman

Sweeney, Republican of New York, requesting that the Committee mark-up S. 2483,

are overwhelming and indicative of the strong grass-roots support for my legislation.

It is no secret that small businesses want to comply with Federal regulations, but

often lack the knowledge of how to do so. S. 2483 will allow these small businesses

to work with their trusted SBDC counselor who can provide confidential, free of

charge, in-depth regulatory compliance assistance that is desperately needed.

I once again thank you for agreeing to my request to mark-up this legislation and

I believe the resources we provide under this pilot program will do a lot of good for

our small businesses as they seek to comply with Federal regulations.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you very much, Senator Cleland.

The bill is open to amendment, if there are any. There are no

amendments filed. If there are no——

Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, the Small Business

Administration has raised questions about this bill. No. 1, I certainly agree with the need for regulatory assistance for small business, but—and this is a 4-year pilot program to provide regulatory

compliance assistance. As we note, the Committee has held no

hearings or roundtable discussion on the bill, and I am concerned,

No. 1, that it would duplicate the ongoing programs at EPA, which

already is providing the support to small business. EPA provides

compliance assistance to the small business ombudsman. It is onestop small business assistance between the small business and

EPA. Section 507 of the Clean Air Act Amendments, Small Business Assistance Program, SBAP, provides technical assistance in

all 50 States through State-operated programs.

The EPA Office of Compliance Assistance provides Virtual Compliance Assistance Centers, Web-delivered, in a variety of business

sectors such as printing and local government.

Under the Red Tape Reduction Act, the EPA Office of the Administrator provides opportunities for small businesses to participate

in the regulatory process. They have had 23 different rulemakings

and 6 compliance guides. As the SBA points out, this would provide

the SBDC Association, a non-governmental entity, with a role in

promulgating and interpreting regulations and criteria mandated

under the legislation.

I raise the question that I think before we take this bill to the

floor, we ought to explore in a Committee hearing to find out, given

the tremendous pressures on the SBDCs to provide business advice, whether we should give them a responsibility of duplicating

already existing EPA and SBA assistance in regulatory compliance.

Again, we don’t have enough dollars for the vital programs of the

SBA, and before we move on giving a totally new responsibility of

governmental regulation interpretation to a non-governmental

10

agency, I would hope that we could have a thorough discussion in

the Committee about it. So I raise a question about this one, and

I think—I don’t know if we have already done it, but perhaps this

would be an appropriate time to ask that the letter from Administrator Hector Barreto dated July 23, 2002, be submitted for the

record here.

Senator CLELAND. Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. If Senator Cleland will hold just for a minute,

without objection, that will be submitted for the record.

[The letter follows:]

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Chairman KERRY. Let me just say very quickly, I think there

may be a way to work through this. We have worked closely—first

of all, this bill was filed in the House, passed by the House, and

there were hearings in the House. So there is a legislative record

with respect to this that we deemed transferred with it and sufficient in our judgment to be able to lay down a sort of legislative

capacity to make judgments about it.

Second, we have worked very closely, Senator Cleland and the

Committee and our staff, with the House sponsor, with the SBDCs

themselves, and it is supported by small business groups.

Now, I don’t want to—you know, we have never tried to railroad

things or ram things through here, and I don’t want to do it that

way. I don’t like that. I think we want to try and do it intelligently

and have support. Obviously, if we don’t have broad-based support,

there are all kinds of ways of slowing it down on the floor and so

forth.

Maybe we could do this, and I would like to see if this would

meet everybody’s approval. There are a number of changes that

have been made in this, fixing sort of a crucial funding program,

which is why this has received strong support. Maybe we could

pass this today, if the Committee were in accord with that, agree

to have a roundtable in the very near term, which Senator Cleland

could chair and Members who have concerns could come to, and I

will work with the Committee in good faith before—if we need to,

to create some kind of managers’ amendment when it comes to the

floor and resolve whatever significant differences exist then. I think

that would really facilitate our capacity to move.

Senator BOND. Well, Mr. Chairman, certainly that is the way

that we have worked in this Committee in the past. We know there

is a concern here on the same basis as we agreed to the amendment from the Senator from Michigan. I understand the concern.

I understand the objective. I would recommend to my colleagues

that we support this bill subject to the roundtable and further discussion.

I want to hear from the SBDCs. I want to hear from SBA and

EPA——

Chairman KERRY. Sure.

Senator BOND [continuing]. On this before we take it to the floor

to make sure that we are, No. 1, not duplicating work that is already being done by the EPA and SBA; No. 2, that there is not a

problem with the SBDCs providing interpretation of Government

regulations in an area which, frankly, I don’t know their expertise;

and, No. 3, whether given the responsibilities that we impose on

the SBDCs and, frankly, the inadequate funding we are providing

to them, if they can fulfill their basic business. I would say that

I would have the same views on the vocational assistance of

SBDCs.

The SBDCs, in my view, are great organizations. They provide

a valuable service. We haven’t been able to fund them, and before

we take a bill to the floor providing them responsibilities in regulatory interpretations or in vocational education, that we see that

we are not getting into a problem in any of these three areas.

So I would be happy—I would recommend to colleagues on my

side that we accept those subject to that condition.

14

Chairman KERRY. I appreciate the Senator’s cooperation, and the

Senator certainly has the right to have those questions answered,

and I think any Member of the Committee does. So I think that

is a good way to proceed, and I appreciate everybody’s cooperation.

We will try to set that roundtable up just as fast as we can and

see if we can’t expedite the process.

Does that meet your needs, Senator Cleland?

Senator CLELAND. Yes, sir.

Chairman KERRY. Thank you.

Senator BOND. Are there any comments or questions, colleagues

on this side?

Chairman KERRY. Senator Allen?

Senator ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, on H.R. 2666, what was the disposition of the proposed Edwards amendment?

Senator BOND. The Edwards amendment on the drought assistance was accepted. That is the one that requires the SBA to——

Chairman KERRY. No, this is on a separate bill. This is on 2666,

which is the vo tech. He has withdrawn that. It is withdrawn.

Senator ALLEN. He has withdrawn that?

Chairman KERRY. Withdrawn that amendment.

Are there any further inquiries or questions? If not, I would like

to proceed to a vote then. If we could proceed to a vote on both

bills, I think that would expedite the procedure, and I will keep my

commitment to everybody to move this hopefully within half an

hour.

Senator WELLSTONE. Mr. Chairman, on the last vote, the Native

American Small Business Development Act, I would ask unanimous consent that I cast my vote now present for that last vote.

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, so ordered.

Senator BOND. We would be happy to do that. Senator Wellstone

is one of our most faithful attendees. The Chairman and Senator

Wellstone and I have conducted a lot of business together.

[Laughter.]

Chairman KERRY. Without further ado, then, if we could vote en

bloc, the clerk will call the roll.

The Clerk. Mr. Levin?

Senator LEVIN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Levin, aye. Mr. Harkin?

Chairman KERRY. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy. Mr. Lieberman?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Lieberman, aye, by proxy. Mr. Wellstone?

Senator WELLSTONE. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Wellstone, aye. Mr. Cleland?

Senator CLELAND. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Cleland, aye. Ms. Landrieu?

Senator LANDRIEU. Aye.

The Clerk. Ms. Landrieu, aye. Mr. Edwards?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Edwards, aye, by proxy. Ms. Cantwell?

Chairman KERRY. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Ms. Cantwell, aye, by proxy. Mrs. Carnahan?

Senator CARNAHAN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mrs. Carnahan, aye. Mr. Bond?

15

* These letters are located in the Appendix.

Senator BOND. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Bond, aye. Mr. Burns?

Senator BURNS. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Burns, aye. Mr. Bennett?

Senator BENNETT. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Bennett, aye. Ms. Snowe?

Senator SNOWE. Aye.

The Clerk. Ms. Snowe, aye. Mr. Enzi?

Senator ENZI. No.

The Clerk. Mr. Enzi, no. Mr. Fitzgerald?

Senator BOND. Aye, by proxy.

The Clerk. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye, by proxy. Mr. Crapo?

Senator CRAPO. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Crapo, aye. Mr. Allen?

Senator ALLEN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Allen, aye. Mr. Ensign?

Senator ENSIGN. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Ensign, aye. Mr. Chairman?

Chairman KERRY. Aye.

The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, aye. Eighteen ayes, one nay.

Chairman KERRY. The bills are reported as approved.

I really want to thank my colleagues. It is never easy here to get

a quorum. I will try to move as rapidly as possible, and I pledge

to the Committee we will complete the task of getting the work

done on those issues that still remain outstanding. But I thank everybody for their cooperation.

Is there any further—yes, Senator Snowe?

Senator SNOWE. May I be recorded aye on the previous vote?

Chairman KERRY. I beg your pardon?

Senator SNOWE. May I be recorded aye?

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, Senator Snowe will be recorded aye as present, and I submit a package of letters of support

from various organizations for the legislation approved today into

the record.*

Chairman KERRY. Senator Landrieu.

Senator LANDRIEU. Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask unanimous

consent to be added as a cosponsor for S. 2753.

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, so ordered.

Is there any further business to come before the Committee?

Senator CANTWELL. Mr. Chairman.

Chairman KERRY. Senator Cantwell.

Senator CANTWELL. I would just ask that I be recorded in person

as——

Chairman KERRY. Without objection, Senator Cantwell is recorded in person on all of the votes.

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you.

Chairman KERRY. Without further business, we stand adjourned.

I thank everybody.

[Whereupon, at 9:38 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

[Appendix material submitted follows:]

(17)

APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

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LETTERS REGARDING S. 2335

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LETTERS REGARDING S. 1994

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LETTERS REGARDING S. 2483

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LETTERS REGARDING S. 2466

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LETTERS REGARDING S. 2734

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