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82–578 2002

SMALL BUSINESS HELPING THE DISABLED LEAD

PRODUCTIVE LIVES

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC, SEPTEMBER 24, 2002

Serial No. 107–70

Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

(

(II)

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS 

DONALD MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman 

LARRY COMBEST, Texas 

JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado 

ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland 

FRANK A. LoBIONDO, New Jersey 

SUE W. KELLY, New York 

STEVE. CHABOT, Ohio 

PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania 

JIM DeMINT, South Carolina 

JOHN R. THUNE, South Dakota 

MICHAEL PENCE, Indiana 

MIKE FERGUSON, New Jersey 

DARRELL E. ISSA, California 

SAM GRAVES, Missouri 

EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia 

FELIX J. GRUCCI, JR., New York 

TODD W. AKIN, Missouri 

SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia 

BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania 

NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York 

JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD, 

California 

DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois 

BILL PASCRELL, Jr., New Jersey 

DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands 

ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania 

TOM UDALL, New Mexico 

STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio 

CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas 

DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois 

GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California 

BRIAN BAIRD, Washington 

MARK UDALL, Colorado 

JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island 

MIKE ROSS, Arkansas 

BRAD CARSON, Oklahoma 

ANIBAL ACEVEDO-VILA, Puerto Rico 

DOUG THOMAS, Staff Director 

PHIL ESKELAND, Deputy Staff Director 

MICHAEL DAY, Minority Staff Director 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Hearing held on September 24, 2002 ..................................................................... 1

WITNESSES

Grizzard, Hon. Roy, Assistant Secretary, Office of Disability Employment 

Policy, U.S. Department of Labor ....................................................................... 4

Coehlo, Hon. Tony, Alexandria, VA ....................................................................... 6

Fiore, Janet, CEO, The Sierra Group, Inc., The King of Prussia Medical 

Center .................................................................................................................... 8

Kosak, Phil, President, Carolina Fine Snacks ...................................................... 9

Lupovitz, Sanford, President, RIBI Security ......................................................... 11

Vidal, Guillermo ‘‘Bill,’’ Executive Director, Denver Regional Council of Governments (DRCOG) .............................................................................................. 25

Kane, Tim, President, International Telework Association and Council 

(ITAC) ................................................................................................................... 26

Anderson, Jane, Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Telecommuting 

Education .............................................................................................................. 28

APPENDIX

Opening statements: 

Manzullo, Hon. Donald .................................................................................... 38

Udall, Hon. Mark .............................................................................................. 40

Davis, Hon. Danny ........................................................................................... 42

Schrock, Hon. Ed .............................................................................................. 48

Prepared statements: 

Grizzard, Hon. Roy ........................................................................................... 49

Fiore, Janet ....................................................................................................... 54

Lupovitz, Sanford ............................................................................................. 60

Vidal, Guillermo ............................................................................................... 63

Kane, Tim .......................................................................................................... 67

Anderson, Jane ................................................................................................. 71

Additional Information: 

Submission of Gary W. Orazio, President, Swanson Rink, Inc .................... 85

Submission of Bob Chamberlin, President, NISH ......................................... 87

Post-Hearing Submission of Janet Fiore, CEO, The Sierra Group, Inc., 

The King of Prussia Medical Center ........................................................... 90

(1)

SMALL BUSINESS HELPING THE DISABLED 

LEAD PRODUCTIVE LIVES 

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2002 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, Washington, DC. 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:15 a.m. in room 2172, 

Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Donald Manzullo, Chairman, 

presiding. 

Chairman MANZULLO. We will call this meeting of the Small 

Business Committee to order. Welcome this morning. We don’t 

have to worry about any bells going off for some votes. Isn’t that 

wonderful. That’s great. 

We have two hearings today. The Role the Federal Government 

and Small Businesses are Playing in Assisting Individuals with 

Disabilities. That is the first panel. The second panel is the Advantages of Telecommuting. 

A special welcome to those who have come some distance to participate and to attend this hearing. The first panel will tell us what 

small businesses and the federal government are doing to help 

those with disabilities lead productive and self-fulfilling lives 

through employment and ownership of small businesses. 

We welcome here today the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Disability Employment Policy, Roy Grizzard—is it Grizzard or 

Grizzard? 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Grizzard. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Grizzard? Is that the Mississippi accent. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. I don’t know, but that’s what it has been for us 

in Virginia for a long time. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Grizzard? All right, it is your name. You 

can call it Jones if you like. The assistant secretary will tell us 

what the federal government is doing to assist those with disabilities. We also have the owners of three small businesses who will 

tell us of the contribution to help those with disabilities take their 

rightful place in the workshop. 

Panel 2 will examine the benefits to the nation and our local 

communities for encouraging telecommuting and the special benefits that telecommuting provides individuals with disabilities. Congressman Udall of Colorado, a valued colleague and member of this 

Committee, has introduced H.R. 1035. 

The bill would direct the Small Business Administration to conduct a pilot program to raise awareness about telecommuting 

among small business employers and encourage such employers to 

offer telecommuting options to employees. 

2

The hearing will provide an opportunity to discuss the provisions 

of this bill. I am going to turn now to our good friend, Jim 

Langevin, who actually inspired this hearing to give an opening 

statement for the minority. Jim, go ahead. 

[Mr. Manzullo’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Mr. UDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I personally want to 

thank you for allowing us the opportunity to highlight some of the 

successes that have been achieved in the business community when 

the business community has reached out and employed people with 

disabilities. 

Though, I have a prepared statement that I am going to read in 

just a second, this is just an exciting day for me personally. I hope 

it is an exciting day for everyone; particularly, the business community because I think that this hearing will highlight how we will 

be able to tap into a previously untapped pool of resources that the 

business community can employ and help to get businesses to grow 

and succeed. 

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would, again, like to thank you and 

welcome my fellow Rhode Islander, first of all, Sandy Lupovitz of 

RIBI Security. Also, a personal friend of mine, former congressman, 

Tony Coelho, Janet Fiore of the Sierra Group, Inc., and Phil Kosak 

of Carolina Snack Foods. 

Of course, again, I want to thank you Mr. Chairman and ranking 

member, Velazquez and your staffs for all your time and assistance 

in scheduling today’s hearings and recognizing small businesses 

that employ and train people with disabilities. 

Small businesses make up a significant portion of our economy. 

The estimated 25 million small businesses in this nation bring new 

and innovative services and products to the marketplace and provide business ownership opportunities to diverse and traditionally 

under represented groups. 

According to statistics provided by the Small Business Administration, small firms create two of every three jobs in America. In 

fact, small businesses employ 54 percent of the national work force; 

and the men and women who own small business represent over 

99 percent of all employers. 

As such, small businesses offer a wealth of opportunities for all 

workers. I strongly believe that people with disabilities are one of 

the greatest untapped resources in this country. Yet, the unemployment rate in the disabilities community hovers at a staggering 70 

percent. 

Recent statistics indicate that 20 percent of all Americans have 

some form of a disability. Employing these individuals is a mutually beneficial business solution that should be considered by the 

small business community which remains the most rapidly expanding sector of economy; and the fastest and steadiest provider of new 

jobs. 

According to the most recent statistics by the U.S. Census Bureau, there are over 10 million Americans of working age nationwide with disabilities who are unemployed. In a recent survey by 

the National Organization on Disability, over 81 percent of people 

with disabilities stated that they wanted an opportunity to work. 

Statistics on the President’s Committee of People with Disabilities demonstrate that people with disabilities have impressive 

3

records of attendance and longevity in the work place. In 1997 the 

president’s Committee also stated that an average cost of job ac- commodation with a person with disabilities was a mere $200. 

Further, for every dollar an employer spends on a disability-re- lated job accommodation, the company saves $34 in the form of 

worker’s compensation, training new employees, and increased productivity and other savings. 

There are many barriers to employment for people with disabilities; mainly, around stereotyping—including fear, pity, ignorance, 

and focusing on what people with disabilities cannot do. But these 

barriers to employment for people with disabilities can and should 

be overcome leading to an outcome that benefits employers and the 

disabled individual alike. 

Employing people with disabilities is not a charity issue. It’s a 

business issue. Small businesses are looking for quality, capable 

workers who have skills to offer and ensure their profitability. Individuals with disabilities, when given the opportunity, clearly meet 

these criteria. An individual who cherishes an opportunity to add 

value to the company will result in the productive relationship for 

both the individual and the business. 

I hope that today’s hearing will act as a catalyst to bring people 

together to drive this nation’s economy into the 21st Century. The 

witnesses testifying before the Committee will provide critical evidence that employing people with disabilities is a financially and 

emotionally awarding experience, and their stories should serve as 

a role model for others to emulate. 

The successful experiences can help mitigate the misunderstanding and the risks that others fear that they will incur when 

they begin to open their office and their factory doors to people 

with disabilities. 

Small businesses that have not considered the prospect of hiring 

people with disabilities lose access to the extraordinary talent pool 

housed among these individuals. As a result, our nation misses out 

on all that these individuals can contribute to our economy. 

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank all the witnesses for their insight 

and participation. Again, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman and 

Ranking Member Velazquez, for your leadership in scheduling today’s hearing. Thank you very much. 

[Mr. Udall’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Jim, for your leadership. I 

know I speak on behalf of the entire House of Representatives, 

Congressman, that we look to you for, not only leadership in this 

area, but you have already inspired us to become better legislators. 

I just want to say a personal thank you for your testimony and 

your witness. 

Mr. UDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Our first witness is Dr. Roy Grizzard, Assistant Secretary, Office of Disability Employment Policy, U.S. Department of Labor. We have a clock here that when the green is 

on, that’s fine. When it turns it yellow—Tony, you know the rules. 

You have been here before. 

When it turns yellow, that means you have one minute left. 

When it turns red, that means that I get excited here. We welcome 

your testimony. As to all the witnesses, your entire testimony that 

4

you have submitted will be a part of the official record. I am going 

to leave the record open for two weeks. 

Anybody who wants to submit any other testimony—keep it to 

two pages or less, typewritten. Don’t make it 3 point type. We will 

keep it open because I am interested in hearing the comments from 

others who would also like to be a part of this hearing. 

Mr. Secretary, we look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF W. ROY GRIZZARD, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, 

OFFICE OF DISABILITY EMPLOYMENT POLICY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Thank you very much. I don’t see the light over 

here. As a result of my RP, I’ve asked Tony to punch me at the 

proper time. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Grizzard, could you pull the mike closer to your mouth there? Thank you. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Thank you Chairman Manzullo, and members of 

the Committee, for the opportunity to testify before you this morning. I am pleased to have this opportunity to highlight the important initiatives that are underway at the U.S. Department of Labor 

to help ensure that Americans with disabilities have access to the 

employment opportunities that best use their tremendous talents 

and abilities. 

Small business holds great promise as a path to employment, 

business ownership and entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. So I would also like to draw attention to some untapped resources that are available to small businesses so that they may 

have the tools that they need to create employment opportunity. 

I’m honored to be here today as the first assistant secretary of 

the Office of Disability Employment Policy, as we refer to it ODEP, 

within the Department of Labor. ODEP was established in January 

of 2001. Our mission is to provide national leadership and policy 

development for increasing employment opportunities, and eliminating barriers to employment for adults and youth with disabilities. 

This unique new agency provides an incredible opportunity for 

fresh starts on an issue of critical importance to people with disabilities and our national economy. ODEP’s mission is to conduct 

policy, research and analysis, and implement a variety of initiatives that will facilitate policy development and recommendations 

to remove barriers to the employment of people with disabilities. 

The office also provides technical assistance, promotes the development and utilization of successful employment practices, and 

provides outreach, education, and constituent information. ODEP 

works with both internal and external customers, including federal 

and state agencies, employers, people with disabilities, and family 

members. 

With the strong support of President George W. Bush and Secretary of Labor Elaine L. Chao, ODEP will play a strong leadership 

role in implementing the employment-related provisions of the New 

Freedom Initiative announced by President Bush in one of the first 

executive actions after taking office. 

Our task is critical to afford people with disabilities the same opportunity for meaningful, competitive employment as those without 

5

disabilities; and through employment, enable them to fully participate as members of our communities. 

According to the 2000 Census, the number of Americans with 

disabilities is at least 49 million, making them one of the largest 

minority groups in the country. In spite of advances in attitudes 

and understanding, many still view people with disabilities incapable of being productive employees. 

However, the last two decades have provided many new ideas 

and successful strategies for creating the pathways into employment. I strongly believe—let me emphasize that—I strongly believe 

that small business and entrepreneurship can significantly enhance 

results for people with disabilities, including young people 

transitioning from school to work. 

Additionally, there are many success stories across the country 

of people with full range of disabilities who have successfully demonstrated their ability to contribute in small business and as owners of small businesses. It is critical that we begin to publicize their 

stories and those of other businesses that have employees with disabilities so that small business owners who have not yet included 

people with disabilities in their workforce are aware of their potential contributions. 

Although ODEP is less than two years old, it already has several 

important national initiatives underway that may assist people 

with disabilities in becoming small business owners or becoming 

gainfully employed in a small business. 

These initiatives include an interagency disability web site and 

information referral services that provide information for employers on job accommodations and employment supports; the Business 

Leadership Network and the Small Business Self-Employment 

Services, which provide information and referral for people with 

disabilities on small business ownership and self-employment opportunities. 

ODEP will maximize the use of its resources and develop employment policies that will facilitate the creation of real jobs, real 

wages and real choices for people with disabilities. Private agencies 

and governments, through the Workforce Investment Act of 1998, 

encourage people with disabilities to consider entrepreneurship as 

a career option and to provide the technical assistance they need. 

WIA reemphasizes self-employment and small business ownership 

as a legitimate employment outcome for vocational rehabilitation 

clients. 

As you may know, October is Disability Employment Awareness 

month. During October, ODEP looks forward to supporting the efforts of President Bush, Secretary Chao and the entire administration in enhancing employment opportunities for people with disabilities. 

Mr. Chairman, my staff and I look forward to working collaboratively with you, the Committee and other parties, both public 

and private, to make this a reality. I will be pleased to respond to 

any questions you may have. Thank you for this opportunity. 

[Mr. Grizzard’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. 

Our next witness is former congressman, Tony Coelho. Tony, you 

didn’t get your testimony in, in time. You didn’t follow the rules. 

6

Mr. COELHO. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. So what are you going to do? Are you 

going to wing it. 

Mr. COELHO. I am just going to wing it like I always have. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Is that what it is? 

Mr. COELHO. I wouldn’t know how to prepare testimony. I don’t 

have staff. 

Chairman MANZULLO. We look forward to your winging. Proceed. 

Mr. COELHO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. We appreciate your coming and look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF TONY COELHO 

Mr. COELHO. It is an honor to be here today, and I appreciate 

very much your holding these hearings. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am quite aware that, even though I’m here just as an 

individual, I am very involved in the Epilepsy Foundation because 

of my own personal epilepsy, and I appreciate what you have done 

to support the increasing of funds for people with epilepsy. I appreciate that very much. 

I also appreciate what you’re doing in regard to assistive technology in your home area because in order to employ people with 

disabilities, we need that assistive technology, and you’ve done 

some good things back in your home area. I appreciate it very 

much. 

I am here, Mr. Chairman, because of the invitation of my good 

friend, the Congressman from Rhode Island. He and I have been 

friends for many, many years when thinking of running for Congress was just a dream, as opposed to running for Congress. I appreciate Jim’s invitation, and maybe insistence, that I come. 

I have not testified before the Congress and any Committee in 

any capacity for the last 12 years. The last time I testified was 

when I was trying to get the ADA passed. So I am here because 

of my concern about employing people with disabilities. I happen 

to think that is the important thing that I could do or that anybody 

could do because of the difference that it would make. 

I might say, just in passing, before I go into my comments, that 

I find it intriguing to sit at the table here and look up at the podium and see the name Udall several times. I worked and served 

with their fathers, so it tells me my age as I go through here. 

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments of the Secretary. I 

think Roy is going to try to make a difference there. Hopefully, he 

can as the first assistant secretary, this is really a critical role. And 

finally, we have somebody at the table with their only purpose as 

serving people with disabilities. So I am enthused that he wants 

to make a difference, and I think that he can if he wants to. 

As Jim said in his comments, small businesses employ about 52 

percent of our work force. I think it is important to understand 

what that means. It is not just the major employers. It is small 

businesses who employ a majority of the people who work. People 

with disabilities, myself included, we want to work. 

I used to say to President Clinton, and I’ve said to President 

Bush, that there is only one group in America that I know of—only 

one group in America that I know of that wants to pay taxes; and 

7

that’s those of us with disabilities. And the reason is, is that we 

want a job. We want to work, and we will be good employees. So 

for an employer to hire somebody with a disability it makes all the 

sense in the world. 

We not only will work, but we will be there on time. We will be 

loyal. We will end up working for these employers for a long period 

of time so that you won’t have all the transitions that generally 

take place. For small businesses, that is critical—the retraining 

costs are impossible to maintain, as my friend, Phil Kosak, will 

probably describe a bit later. 

I think that it is important for us to understand what this Committee could do to help enhance the cause to help people with disabilities to be hired. I could tell you story after story of people who, 

by getting a job, it’s made a difference. I work with a group called 

Bender Consulting in Pennsylvania that actually trains people with 

disabilities in how to get a job, then places them in a job. 

I am aware of two young people that were graduated out of college with degrees in technology who could not get work. The young 

lady had epilepsy. She had cerebral palsy. She had a speech impediment. She had difficulty walking, and she was discriminated 

against continuously in getting a job. 

A young man who was sight-impaired and couldn’t get a job. 

They both were placed by the Bender Group, starting off at jobs at 

$80,000 plus. They were discriminated against until somebody said 

let me help you. They were put in these jobs. The next time I saw 

them was at a picnic, and the young lady came up to me and she 

thanked me for the things that we had done for them in the President’s Committee. 

She said I also want you to know that we’re dating—these two 

individuals were dating. She said I’m pregnant. I said, oh, my God, 

when are you getting married. She said is that really that important nowadays. I realized I was 59 years old and out of touch. Then 

about 15 minutes later, she asked me to be best man at their wedding. They got married right on the spot at this picnic. [Laughter.] 

The interesting thing about this was the fact that here were two 

young people who couldn’t get jobs. They were trained and employed through Bender Consulting Services. They have a home. 

They have jobs and they are paying taxes. They now have a little 

baby for whom I am the personal godfather. Logan was born in 

January of this year and is perfectly normal. They have helped to 

take care of their baby and now we have very productive and proud 

citizens. 

So I hope that this Subcommittee understands the tremendous 

opportunity it has to make a difference in millions and millions of 

people’s lives.

I would just like to close with one comment. That is, Mr. Chairman, some people say that by hiring people with disabilities that 

you would increase worker’s compensation and other costs. The 

Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers did a study that shows that was not the case. There are still 

a lot of questions on that. 

I would urge that this Committee have somebody like the Library of Congress, or somebody—the Department of Labor—somebody do a study to determine if that is or is not correct because we 

8

need to eliminate that myth. Hiring people with disabilities should 

not increase the costs to anybody. I think it makes great sense to 

do that. And I appreciate, again, Mr. Chairman, your willingness 

to call this hearing. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Our next witness is Janet Fiore. That was 

the last name of my roommate in college. 

Ms. FIORE. Is that right. 

Chairman MANZULLO. He is from Los Angeles. 

Ms. FIORE. My husband’s family is from the northern New Jersey 

area, Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. That’s real close. It’s a suburb of Los Angeles. That’s correct. Janet is the CEO of The Sierra Group, Inc. 

This is distinct from the Sierra Club, is that correct? 

Ms. FIORE. Correct. That’s very correct. 

Chairman MANZULLO. We look forward to your testimony. 

Ms. FIORE. Thank you. 

STATEMENT OF JANET FIORE, CEO, THE SIERRA GROUP, INC., 

THE KING OF PRUSSIA MEDICAL CENTER 

Ms. FIORE. If it’s a job done from a desk, we can accommodate 

it. In order for a person with a disability to go to work, they need 

to know how to work; and in order for a business to accommodate 

them, that business needs to know how to accommodate them. 

Ladies and gentlemen of Congress, it’s my distinct pleasure to be 

here before you today and to thank you for the laws and funding 

that Congress has put into place to date, which has allowed employment dreams to be a reality for individuals with disabilities. 

The reauthorization of the Rehab Act in 1992, serving those with 

most significant disabilities first, was the start for my business, the 

Sierra Group—a 10-person, certified female-owned disability and 

engineering consultancy. At the Sierra Group we stand for reversing the rate of employment for people with disabilities. 

We do this in two ways. We help people, and we help businesses. 

In order for people with disabilities to go to work, they need the 

core skills to do the job. Technology can often act as the bridge to 

overcome their disabling conditions. In order for businesses to hire 

someone, they need some help in making the work site accessible 

for all of this adaptive technology, as well as for any physical barriers that the individual may happen to have. 

We work to tie in existing governmental resources to create win/

win employment relationships. Sierra engineered a training curriculum, the Workplace Technology Training Academy. We combined the expertise of a Center for Independent Living, along with 

the Public Vocational Rehabilitation Program in Pennsylvania. We 

added our high-touch, high-tech approach to the rehab engineering. 

What we did was create successful employment outcomes with people with severe disabilities. 

I would like for you to meet Carlos Concepcion (phonetic). Carlos 

is in the back of the room, and we have a video showing what has 

happened at the Academy. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Could someone hit the lights over there, 

please. 

[Video shown.] 

Ms. FIORE. That’s the end of the tape. 

9

Ms. FIORE. In order to place, or accommodate a worker with a 

disability, the business needs some assistance, also. We address the 

common fears associated with hiring an individual who is disabled, 

and we teach businesses what is actually possible through technology. 

We also identify for the business; particularly, for the small business what funding resources exist to pay for these accommodations. 

Very recently, Sierra Group assisted a small law firm in Philadelphia who hired a woman with mobility limits. There was no outof-pocket expense whatsoever to the business in order to place this 

individual. 

The technology was paid for by the state Public Vocational Rehabilitation Program, and the training was provided through federal 

training dollars. What the business got in the end was a very competent individual who does a good job. They had no out-of-pocket 

expense and the accommodation that allowed her to overcome her 

difficulty going from office location to office location was the installation of a remote network that the entire company now benefits 

from. 

Chairman MANZULLO. How are you doing on time. I’ve got you 

at about seven minutes. Are you almost done there? 

Ms. FIORE. Yes—30 seconds. 

Chairman MANZULLO. All right, go ahead. 

Ms. FIORE. Realizing that other business owners might fear the 

unknown when they first hire a person with a disability, Sierra 

conducts seminars teaching what is possible, how to integrate the 

assistive technology onto the mainstream platform and how to get 

funding to do that. 

Now how does all of this affect the economy? Well, if just 10 percent of people with disabilities collecting supplemental security income benefits would get a job over the next 30 years by working 

rather than collecting income, society would save $250 billion. 

In our 10–year history we have helped 2000 individuals with severe disabilities, and those who got hurt at work. If we can have 

additional funding to teach people with disabilities to work, and 

teach business how to accommodate them, imagine the cumulative 

benefit that society will then realize. Thank you very much. 

[Ms. Fiore’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much, also. I don’t have 

the testimony for you, Mr. Kosak? Did you turn yours in? 

Mr. KOSAK. I did. It is lost in cyber space. It’s the story of my 

life. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Lost in technology? You probably gave 

yours to Congressman Coelho, is that what happened? We look forward to your testimony. Go ahead. 

STATEMENT OF PHIL KOSAK, PRESIDENT, CAROLINA FINE 

SNACKS 

Mr. KOSAK. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity. My name is Phil Kosak, and I’m the owner of Carolina Fine 

Snacks, a small snack food manufacturing company in Greensboro, 

North Carolina, which I founded in 1982. 

Carolina Fine is one of a handful of snack food manufacturers 

left in the United States having survived in an industry that saw 

10

over 90 percent of the manufacturers driven out of business in the 

1990s. I attribute our survival and our success, in large part, to our 

employees. That’s not unique to any good, successful business 

story. What makes my story a bit uncommon is that since 1988, 

over half of my staff have been persons with disabilities.

A more common story with small business is how employees 

drive the company out of business, and that, until 1988, was the 

road I was heading down. If someone had told me that the most 

difficult challenge I would face in starting and running a business 

would be finding good employees, I would have never believed it. 

It was, in fact, one obstacle that bucketed my knees every day 

and made it seem like each day was going to be my last. In ’88 

with two shifts running, I was certain I was going to have to close 

the business. We were experiencing 80 percent turnover every six 

months, ran at about 60 percent efficiency, had about 15 percent 

tardiness, and 20 percent absenteeism. That’s a good day. 

In 1987, for example, with 26 employees, we filed over 200 W– 2 forms. This is not about money. It is not about work environment. Carolina Fine Snacks was paying higher than the prevailing 

wage in the area, and our work environment was easy, friendly and 

convenient. 

The labor pool available for small business is profoundly inadequate. This is particularly true for small manufacturers. We are 

at the bottom of the food chain. By a stroke of luck, in 1988, we 

were asked to make the pork skins for the GOP convention. They 

invited me—— [Laughter.] 

That publicity introduced us to vocational rehabilitation, who invited me—do you remember that? Does that come off my time? 

They invited me to participate in a job fair to interview candidates 

for employment who happened to be persons with disabilities. 

I interviewed six people that day. Six people who had my undivided attention. Instead of being asked questions that revolved 

around break time, pay frequency, raises, and time off, I was fielding questions about our company—what we did and how we might 

help. 

I was taken aback by an interview of one person, David, who 

spoke with great enthusiasm about his third-shift job cleaning 

bathrooms for a hotel, and his dismay that his job was being eliminated. David was legally blind, severely obese and had cognitive 

disabilities. I hired him that day on the spot, thinking what do I 

have to lose. Little did I know what I was about to gain. 

David approached work at Carolina Fine with total ownership. 

He worked with enthusiasm, pride and efficiency. He couldn’t learn 

enough. He wanted to help anywhere he could. He laughed. He 

joked. He was always at work on time, anxious and ready to go. 

He totally confused my crew. [Laughter.] 

In the weeks and the months that followed, David’s enthusiasm 

didn’t waiver. Every time someone quit, I just called VR and hired 

another person. Within six months, over half my staff were persons 

with disabilities, and the revolving door closed. Plant efficiency 

climbed to 98 percent the following six months, and for the first 

time since I started my business, I was able to focus on my business. Now the point of my story is this, Carolina Fine Snacks is 

11

alive and well today, growing at 25 percent a year, because I was 

fortunate enough to discover a workforce interested in being a part 

of the American promise. 

My decision to hire persons with disabilities was a sound business decision. There is a perfect marriage waiting to take place between small businesses desperately seeking qualified employees, 

and a highly qualified workforce chomping at the bit to become 

part of the American dream that happens to be the most 

disenfranchised population in this country—the disabled. 

The government has played a critical role in laying the foundation to bridge the gap between the two, but there is much work 

still needed to be done to bring it together. Much of the solutions 

are right in front of us, by supporting programs already in place. 

The Javis-Wagner-O’Day program, for example, employs 40,000 

people with severe disabilities and community rehabilitation programs that are segways to employment opportunities throughout 

communities nationwide. 

With a little bit of enthusiasm and support by Congress that 

number could easily be 400,000. This a no-brainer. It costs no 

money, and it will save taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. 

The Small Business Administration should be partnering with 

agencies like NISH and Vocational Rehabilitation to facilitate employment. These are great organizations that hold the key to 

transitioning persons with disabilities into meaningful employment 

in the community. 

In closing, I believe there is tremendous opportunity for government and small business to work together to provide real employment opportunities for person with disabilities. All the pieces to the 

puzzle are out there and it’s time for us to start putting it together. 

Thank you. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. That is pretty compelling testimony. Our next witness is Sanford Lupovitz, correct? 

Mr. LUPOVITZ. That’s correct. 

Chairman MANZULLO. With the Rhode Island Bureau of Investigation, Ltd, and Congressman Langevin, is he your constituent? 

Mr. LANGEVIN. He is, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Very good. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. We are very proud to have Mr. Lupovitz here 

today. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Please, proceed. 

STATEMENT OF SANFORD LUPOVITZ, PRESIDENT, RIBI 

SECURITY 

Mr. LUPOVITZ. Chairman Manzullo, members of the Committee, 

ladies and gentleman—just a little bit about our company. We are 

now about 200 employees. We serve 40 or 50 sites. We are a security officer agency. We are licensed in Rhode Island and Massachusetts. We do a full range of security—consultation, investigation—

any phase of it. 

The clientele that we have include manufacturing, Deep Water 

port, parking facility at the airport, power plants, schools, construction, hotels, hospitals—the full gamut. 

What is important to point out is that we are not a law enforcement agency, and because of that misperception, we find that a lot 

12

of agencies and even applicants stay away—do I have to carry a 

gun and those kinds of questions hit us. The answer is no. 

We are there to deter violations, to enforce safety rules, to observe, to call the agencies who will enforce—police, fire, ambulance 

and so forth; and to keep in touch—the guard on duty—with our 

field people and our supervisors. 

Many of the applicants who come to us are not professional. They 

are not trained. They primarily come to us because it’s an industry 

that’s recognized as one to go to if you need a job to fill a gap. You 

become a guard and you collect your check at the end of the week 

and that’s it. 

There is another significant group of applicants who are turning 

to security, which had increased in number over the years, people 

who are seriously looking for long term employment. Included in 

this alternative group are the individuals with disabilities. We find 

that they will come to us, either on their own or referred through 

agencies. In the hiring process for this group we’ve developed a procedure to evaluate whether or not the applicant with a disability 

will, in fact, be someone who can work for us. 

What we do is interview in depth. We look at the kind of assignment we want to send them to. We set up field support and follow 

up. 

What I want to do is take two minutes—half a minute—to tell 

you about a few of the examples that we have had some success 

with. Mitchell—in 1985 he came to us through an agency. He had 

one arm; was a forester. Also, had a language limitation and needed a job. 

At the same time, we had a client who asked us what we could 

do about stopping vandalism in their parking lot. We sent Mitchell. 

He locked it up. There was no more vandalism. The guy was a tremendous success. He is still with us. He is now working in a fabulous insurance building, and he is significant part of the security 

there. 

John, who was a stroke victim, came to us; and we were able to 

place him at a parking lot facility. He did not lose his speaking capabilities and he could move his arms perfectly. He sits behind the 

counter and collects the parking fees from customers coming 

through. 

Mike, who was a computer top pro, lost his job because of an illness, and I’m not sure I can recall which one it was, came to us. 

We sent him to a rubbish collection company, which had hundreds 

of vehicles—you know the metal boxes that you see all over the 

place, and so forth—they had no way of keeping track of their 

equipment. 

He, with his background, set up a system which enabled them 

to keep track of the trucks, the boxes, the drivers—who came in 

and who went out and so forth. We got the phone call ‘‘don’t you 

even think about transferring this guy to another site. We need 

him right here.’’

Joe, who had been depressed, came to us in need of a job. We 

had to do a lot of work with this guy. The shifts were wrong. The 

job was wrong. The time was wrong. We got his case worker. We 

sat down and we worked things out. We gave him a lot of support. 

He is now succeeding as a gate guard at a manufacturing plant. 

13

So. We don’t represent ourselves as any kind of an expert agency, 

but what we have done is make the commitment to try to employ 

people with disabilities because we think it’s a responsibility that 

we have. 

One of the things I would like to point out, and ask the Committee to consider, is what to do about work comp claims of prior 

injuries. We’ve been socked a couple of times with this kind of a 

situation. If it were at all possible to study this, I think it’s one of 

the things that prevent employers from looking at the possibility 

of hiring people with disabilities. 

I see I have to stop. There is a lot more I would like to add, but 

it’s in the printed testimony. I would like to thank the Committee 

for inviting us. Congressman Langevin for having us here. It is an 

honor to be a part of this hearing. We, of course, think that the 

security industry, given its growth and the demand for new people 

and the training that’s needed and so forth, has great potential for 

hiring people with disabilities. We would like to contribute to that. 

Thank you. 

[Mr. Lupovitz’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you for your testimony. I would be 

most interested in whoever could provide that study to which you 

referred. If it could be boiled down to a couple of pages, I would 

use the resources of our Small Business Committee to network that 

out throughout the country to the small business development centers and to get the word out as to these remarkable employees 

working in small businesses. Your testimony is extremely powerful. 

Mr. Langevin, I am going to yield my time to you. So you have 

10 minutes. The rest have five minutes. If you go over that, I’ve 

got this back here, all right? 

Mr. LANGEVIN. I will do my best to stay within the limits, Mr. 

Chairman. Thank you. 

I want to just thank all of the witnesses for testifying today. 

Your testimony was incredibly powerful. I hope this will continue 

to serve as a catalyst——

Chairman MANZULLO. Jim, if you would yield for just a second. 

If you could get one of the mikes that’s over there on the table, and 

bring it—Danny, in front of it. Get it over to Jim so he can get a 

little bit closer to him. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. See how easy that reasonable accommodation 

was? [Laughter.] 

Again, I want to thank the panel for testifying here today. You 

have encouraged me more than ever and made me more enthusiastic about pursuing ways in which we can open doors for people 

with disabilities to enter the workforce. 

I guess I will start with Mr. Lupovitz, if I could, and just ask 

what you would say to small businesses that feel that hiring a person with a disability will place too much of a financial burden on 

their business due to monetary accommodations that need to be 

made? 

Mr. LUPOVITZ. Our experience is it hasn’t added any financial 

burden to our operation. We don’t know of anything. I will say this, 

that there are programs out there that we probably could participate in. We find them onerous. The paper work, following the reguVerDate 0ct 31 2002 12:06 Nov 14, 2002 Jkt 082585 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A578.XXX A578
14

lations, trying to figure out what we can and cannot do with the 

employee. That needs a lot of work. 

I’m just addressing that from a practical perspective. I don’t 

know what those programs are, and I don’t have the time to deal 

with them. We could use more outreach from the agencies in supporting us in that respect. We have a business to run—200 people 

running around 24/7 and doing all kinds of things. We can’t sit 

down when that big envelope comes in with a form and instructions and take the time to fill it out, and frankly, we are not interested in doing that. I’m not sure I answered your question, Jim. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Actually, you raised an interesting point. I just 

want to be clear. You’re saying that of the government programs 

that are out there that businesses could take advantage of in training and employing people with disabilities, that your company has 

not taken advantage of those? You’ve done it without those programs. 

Mr. LUPOVITZ. We have done without. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Mr. Secretary, perhaps you can elaborate on that 

a little bit, and tell us what some of the programs are and how, 

if businesses took advantage of these programs, maybe doors could 

be opened even further. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Thank you very much for asking me to weigh in 

on that particular question. I also was very impressed by the panel 

members and their exciting programs and what they are doing in 

their businesses currently. And as the last witness said, the truth 

of the matter is that most accommodations are less than a thousand dollars. In fact, most are in the neighborhood of about $200. 

We had a little laugh a moment ago with the moving of the 

microphone, but often that is just about how simple some accommodations can be to assist a person with a disability. 

What we want to do at ODEP is to make small businesses aware 

of those facts and how some of those accommodations can be made. 

As I listened to the other panelists, I was impressed by a kind of 

a thing that might be common to many small businesses. 

Our last witness said that his company had somewhere in the 

neighborhood of 200 employees. Most small businesses run 50, 100, 

150, 200 employees—I don’t know this from personal knowledge because I’ve never operated a small business; but intuitively, I’ve 

seen them operate. And usually you have someone in the front office of that business, and that individual, almost handles the entire 

operation of the business. 

They handle accounts receivable, accounts payable. They handle 

the inventory requests. They handle shipments. They answer the 

phones—they do all these things. One other thing that they do is 

usually the HR Department. They don’t have, sometimes, the opportunity for the level of knowledge that HR Departments in large 

corporations have to gather knowledge about issues related to hiring of people with disabilities.

What we hope to do at ODEP is to provide, through web-based 

sites, such as our Job Accommodations Network and further outreach to the small businesses, opportunities for that one individual 

up there in the front office of that small business to gain knowledge about how to go about accommodations—how much accomVerDate 0ct 31 2002 12:06 Nov 14, 2002 Jkt 082585 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A578.XXX A578
15

modations cost; and I think most important of all is that their employee pool has expanded. 

And that they have an opportunity, just as the gentleman from 

Carolina that runs the snack business said, they have an opportunity to hire individuals who are going to give them a solid day’s 

work for a solid day’s pay with good benefits. That person is going 

to be loyal. They are going to be at work on time. They are going 

to be cooperative. They are going to be a good employee. 

So those are some of the things that we want to address. We 

want to make that technical assistance and knowledge available to 

small business because, after all, that’s where the largest level of 

employment occurs in this country. I hope that in some way I 

might have answered some of your questions. 

In terms of the regulations and some of the hoops that have to 

be jumped through, I would agree with you that at times some of 

those are over burdensome. Our office, while not regulating anything; while not enforcing anything, would be delighted to work 

with small business to assist them to comply with some of these 

regulations. Thank you. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Mr. Secretary, could you just target a few or identify a couple of programs that might be available to a business that 

is looking to hire individuals with disabilities—either tax incentives or other specific programs that they could take advantage of. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Yes, there are. There are first, federal tax advantages that provide for certain levels of tax breaks in terms of accommodations that are made, and extend usually over a period, I 

believe, of several years. So that’s available. That knowledge we 

can make available to them. 

We will work with the folks over at Tax to get that type of information available to small business. Then there are many states 

that mirror the federal tax exemptions for corporate taxes. While 

I was in the Commonwealth of Virginia, Delegate John Jack Reed 

sponsored a piece of legislation that almost mirrored some of the 

federal tax incentives. I tried to work very hard with that particular legislature to bring that particular bill to the governor’s 

desk. I am proud to report that it went there unanimously in both 

houses and was signed by the Governor. 

There are many states—I know that we used Maryland as a reference point as the one that was developed in the Commonwealth 

of Virginia. So there are many states that also do this. So that 

would be something that state legislatures might want to consider, 

but certainly we would provide this type of information to small 

businesses so that they can become aware of that and take those 

tax advantages—whether it is at the federal or the state level. 

Thank you. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Mr. Coelho, do you 

have any comment on the government programs that businesses 

could take advantage of? 

Mr. COELHO. Thank you, Jim. You have two seconds—one second. Let me try to answer very quickly. 

One of the things that I would do is to get the Small Business 

Administration to get aggressively involved in trying to educate 

small businesses about the advantage of hiring people with disabilities. The time I was in the Congress, and the time I served as the 

16

chairman of the President’s Committee, we never succeeded in 

doing that. I’ll be very blunt. The last administration didn’t get 

there. 

The Small Business Administration never got its act together in 

regards to doing this. I would hope that Roy, with his new position, 

would get the SBA to understand that they can provide a huge 

service to their businesses if they did this. I would hope that this 

Committee would encourage them to do that, and to question them 

why they’re not doing it. 

They reach out to a lot of minorities, but do not reach out to this 

particular group. I think that’s a mistake—a huge mistake, and 

something that their clientele, the small businesses all over this 

country could benefit if they did. I think that the questions about 

regulations and all these things are legit. 

And I think if the SBA got involved in that, they could identify 

some of those, and with the Department of Labor, they could eliminate some of those regulations. But you have got to get the SBA 

engaged. It can’t all be the Department of Labor. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Mr. Langevin. Mr. Issa, do you 

have a question? 

Mr. ISSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Really just two questions. 

I do have the good fortune of having been one of those people that 

once had that person who did a payables, receivables, and wrote in 

the UPS book. So I think I understand that. We have also, our 

company, had opportunity and had good employees who, in fact, 

came in with disabilities. 

My challenge, really, on this legislation, which I favor in principle is twofold. One is the SBA, the appropriate place to put this 

pilot. 

In other words, I appreciate that small business is the area that 

needs the education, but, in fact, is this enough money, even as a 

pilot, and is the Small Business Administration—perhaps, Mr. 

Coelho, you could help us in looking at the history of failure and 

say, okay, is this the right organization that is going to step up to 

the plate and do a good job of really making more people aware of 

the requirement to be open and how one can use skills that are 

right now not being used. 

Then I will just throw in the second part. The second part is, if 

this is not enough money, and I believe that very quickly we are 

going to realize, whether this is the right organization or not, it’s 

way too little money. 

If there is no new money, should we consider moving enforcement dollars, which are always considered sanguisant (phonetic), 

into education dollars, if what we have is, a lot less people who are 

knowingly not employing the handicapped than we have people 

who don’t understand the opportunity. 

Obviously, the goal is to get as many people with disabilities to 

have opportunities. That’s why I asked both questions together, 

Mr. Coelho. 

Mr. COELHO. Thank you very much, Congressman. I would start 

off by saying, yes, I think the Small Business Administration is the 

right place. The reason is because they have offices all over this 

country, and they have personnel all over this country. So they are 

17

there. It’s a tremendous vehicle to put out the word to be of help; 

to be of assistance; if they would take on the responsibility. 

I think it’s critically important to educate them, and this Committee could do that in different ways, to educate them that they 

have an obligation and a responsibility to get it done. So I do think 

it’s the right vehicle. 

In regard to the amount of money, it’s never enough money, as 

you well know; but I think that the most important thing is I always looked at things as drip-drip. I never worried if it was enough 

money. I always thought it was important to get something started, 

and to create an example—create successes. If you can do that, 

then the rest will take care of itself. 

I would say to you that if it starts proving itself, you will be the 

one that will be advocating that more money go there. But if it 

doesn’t prove itself, you should eliminate it.

I remember when I took the chairman’s job for the President’s 

Committee, I told President Clinton that if that Committee couldn’t 

do its work, I wanted it eliminated. I would advocate it, but if it 

did its work, then I wanted that job promoted to be an assistant 

secretary job. It was important to have that person at the table to 

get things done. 

I think we were successful and it became an assistant secretary’s 

job. But I stress to you, and I stress to you over and over again, 

is that we can’t accomplish this job of educating small businesses, 

through the Department of Labor alone. They have to have help. 

That isn’t their job. They need help and the SBA is there and it 

should do this. 

Mr. ISSA. And the second part of the questions for anyone who 

wants to take that on. 

Ms. FIORE. May I? 

Mr. ISSA. Please. 

Ms. FIORE. I believe that enforcement is a no-win and education 

can be a win-win solution. We find that in working with folks with 

multiple, severe disabilities the answer is not always obvious. It 

sometimes does take a certain degree of education as to how something is possible. 

If there was more education for small business in how to access 

the public VR system. How to find someone that will clearly identify here are all the forms and all of the tax benefits available to 

a company like one of the other witnesses here today. They need 

that education because otherwise it is too cumbersome. 

I think if we can educate, out of enforcement dollars, then more 

and more people will come into the workforce; and soon enforcement would be less of an issue. 

Mr. ISSA. Thank you. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Yes, I would just like to add one observation. We 

do have a telework, telecommuting, if you will, grant that we will 

be partnering with SBA as well as Vocational Rehabilitation on 

that. 

And then, secondly, I was confirmed on the 26th of July. So you 

can imagine that I have had a lot of people come into my office over 

the last month and a half; but I have spoken to the administrator 

of the SBA, Mr. Barreto, and we have both pledged to each other 

our cooperation in an attempt to synergize the efforts between 

18

what we are doing and what SBA is doing so at the end of the day 

it will help people with disabilities to become employed. 

So I agree with Mr. Coelho, and we are working to that end with 

the SBA. 

Mr. ISSA. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and 

I want to thank Mr. Udall for proposing this legislation. I look forward to supporting it. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Congresswoman Christian-Christensen? 

Ms. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want 

to commend you for the hearing, and my colleagues—Mr. Udall and 

Mr. Langevin for their role and their leadership in this area. 

I want to take the opportunity to welcome everyone on the panel, 

but also to recognize someone who is in the audience, Mr. Bobby 

Coward, from the Washington, D.C. area. He is the chair and 

spokesperson for the Capital Area Americans for Disabled for Attending Programs. He is an advocate for the disabled. Bobby’s in 

the back there. 

I guess I would ask my first question to Assistant Secretary 

Grizzard. You talked about some relationships that DOL has with 

SBA, or is establishing with SBA, but I was wondering is there an 

established interdepartmental partnership that exists to help individuals with disabilities? We know that individual agencies have 

programs to assist the disabled to become employed. 

But it seems to me that it would be important that the federal 

agencies communicate with each other on a more systematic way—

the Department of Education, Small Business, Social Security Administration, Department of Labor. Is there any such existing partnership? 

Mr. GRIZZARD. Congresswoman, there is no formal organization 

as such. If you look at the wording of the New Freedom Initiative, 

though, there is a call by the President for cooperation among federal agencies as we work to bring individuals with disabilities into 

the community and to be able to live independent lives. 

So we work very closely with the major agencies that are concerned with these types of initiatives—the Department of Education, the Department of Justice, Social Security Administration, 

HHS; and as we move forward, we would want to continue to bring 

synergism among the agencies as we leverage our ideas and our 

policies that ultimately will lead to the goal of reducing that rather 

dismal figure that earlier was referred to; and that’s the 70 percent 

unemployment rate. 

So there isn’t anything formal, but we look forward to continuing 

to work with the other federal agencies to bring that around. 

Ms. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN. As a member who represents a territory, we know how important it is to really have an established 

synergism between the agencies to address our particular problems, and I think it would be good in this area as well. 

Another question to the assistant secretary, do you know of any 

studies that have been done on policies that exist in our governmental agencies that also create barriers for eligibility? Have we 

ever looked at policies, regulations and so forth throughout the 

agencies of government that also might create barriers? 

19

Mr. GRIZZARD. As you can see, in that one and a half months, 

I haven’t learned all the answers. I am glad Tony is here. I might 

have to ask him. 

Chairman MANZULLO. If you would yield a second, Mr. Secretary, 

if you would put something in writing. We will give you a couple 

of weeks to put it into the record and send a letter to each member. 

It’s a very broad question. You don’t even have to attempt to answer it if you don’t want to. 

Mr. GRIZZARD. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, because that’s 

exactly what I was going to say. I wasn’t born yesterday. So we will 

put something together that would address that because it is a 

broad area. 

Mr. COELHO. If I could just quickly—as Roy was saying. I had 

a little experience in this. Yes, there has been a lot of studies. They 

don’t do any good. It isn’t the studies that you really want as you 

want to make some agencies deliver, and they aren’t and they 

haven’t and they haven’t cooperated. 

Having the head of SBA and Roy meet is great and I applaud 

him for trying. But that isn’t going to do it. It’s the people within 

SBA that have to be told that it has to be done. That’s our problem. 

I mean, it’s a major problem, and this high unemployment rate is 

because there is a lot of good words and a lot of good intentions, 

but there are no good results. 

Ms. CHRISTIAN-CHRISTENSEN. I see that my time, at least for this 

round, is up, but it sounds like that’s a job for us as we look at 

the budget next year and including language that the interagency 

cooperation takes place and that there is some language in there 

that directs certain things be done in this regard. Thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you. Ms. Napolitano? 

Ms. NAPOLITANO. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’ve got several questions that have been rattling around in my brain as I’m listening 

to the testimony. 

First of all, I would like to know what the budget is for your 

agency, Mr. Assistant Secretary—round numbers—just generally, 

how much are we talking about?

Mr. GRIZZARD. Congresswoman, I had that one right. I just want- ed to double check. It is $47 million. 

Ms. NAPOLITANO. That is for the whole country. So to me, that’s 

a paltry sum that needs to be looked at, increased and fostered. I 

would be glad to have, maybe, an amendment to Mr. Udall to increase some budget language somewhere along the lines. 

One of the things that—and I’ve heard this over and over again. 

And Tony, you’re right. Agencies not only don’t talk to each other— don’t communicate with each other; don’t work with each other, but 

it is sometimes not enough to have the heads working. It is the 

people that are actually doing the job that do not concentrate on 

what they are being told, and generally, that happens in most 

agencies. 

Somehow you are right. We need to go in that area. But in order 

to educate the business community I would like to suggest, and I’m 

not quite sure what outreach you are doing, seeing as how most of 

the time most agencies don’t have the kind of money to put advertisement to where it is going to do the most good or where it 

20

reaches the businesses. But may I suggest—do you have a website 

that our offices can tap into and connect? 

Secondly, that you might want to do training videos. I was talking to Ms. Fiore earlier about some of the videos that she has are 

excellent, but when you look at some of the people like Jim and 

people out in the audience, you say, well, gee, they can’t get very 

much work done looking at them. 

We need to change perception—the public perception and the 

business perception. And the only way you are going to do it is by 

putting out, maybe on the must carry cable channels that most cities are required to have, that will accept free of charge educational 

videos, and would be able to reach a large segment of the business 

community within municipalities. 

I think we need to start thinking out of the box on how to do the 

outreach and change the perception of the value of individual with 

disabilities to the working community. I was very surprised, and 

very pleased, to learn that Ms. Fiore is a for-profit woman-owned 

and are doing a fabulous job in taking individuals who nobody 

wants—nobody can, looking at them, would even think of hiring 

and turning them into productive people who get off of social security and are functioning as full members of society. 

Somehow those—and it’s mostly commentary because I’m tired of 

hearing employers say, well, we don’t have a place for these kind 

of people. They may not know that the different agencies can work 

together and be able to provide assistance to them. Of course, most 

important to a lot of businesses are the factor of loyalty, on time, 

productivity—and once those are out of the way and they learn 

how valuable these people become, as these gentlemen from the different companies are saying, that they now may begin to have an 

open mind towards it. 

I would suggest that maybe we would be glad to host—you know, 

Chairman Manzullo was very helpful to us in having a hearing in 

my area, but I would be glad to open it to be able to bring all those 

folks together and begin a process of teaching how important this 

new workforce can be to any business. How valuable it is. 

I guess maybe I’m searching because, number one, your budget 

is too low. I mean, it is dismal, and number two, the perception, 

not only in the business community, but the community-at-large 

needs to be addressed. 

We need the cooperation of other agencies, whether it’s Labor, 

Education, Health and Human Services—all of those that have a 

stake in this work group need to come together, and maybe you can 

call them together with the assistance of Chairman Manzullo, and 

begin the process of saying you’re going to do it. 

Now does anybody want to address any of what I have stated? 

Mr. KOSAK. I would like the opportunity, if I could, because I 

think—I have the opportunity to serve on a number of not-for-profit boards. And I travel the country and talk to businesses and I’m 

familiar with the ARC. I’m familiar with NISH. I am now the 

chairman of the board of NISH. I also serve on business leadership 

network through the Department of Labor, and I think I have seen 

a lot and learned a lot. 

One of the things that I think is understated here is the fact that 

these groups don’t communicate well together. In some cases they 

21

not only do not communicate well together, there is an adversarial 

relationship. 

For example, the Small Business Administration—in my mind, 

the community rehabilitation programs around the country—and 

there are thousands of them in all communities—are the cornerstone to that training and that networking within the community 

that is going to allow businesses to understand. 

It also is going to provide that segue to step from the environment that is currently out there into one where small business 

equally understands the value of the employee base. Well, the 

Small Business Administration considers community rehabilitation 

programs to be adversarial in nature. They are competitive in nature because they are competing against one another for business. 

So here on the one hand you have the community rehabilitation 

associations and programs around the country that are a keynote 

in every community to helping transition what it is you’re looking 

for, and the Small Business Administration that needs to partner 

and marry with them. They should be embracing community 

rehabs. These are small businesses, too. The only difference is their 

IRS statement period. 

If you get their IRS status out of the way, the only other challenge they have is that they are dealing with training and all of 

the challenges that normal businesses don’t. 

I would suggest that there does need to be a meeting of the 

minds, and a clear understanding that these organizations do have 

to work together to get the result you’re looking for. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you. Mr. Udall, did you have any 

questions? 

Mr. UDALL. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to thank the panel. Your 

testimony has been very illuminating and inspiring. It has motivated me further in my travels to make the case that you all have 

made so eloquently. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to yield my remaining time to my 

colleague, Mr. Langevin. I know he has additional questions and 

comments. 

Mr. LANGEVIN. I do thank my colleague. Thank you. 

If I could, I would just like follow up and perhaps ask Mr. Kosak. 

Your testimony was particularly compelling. 

Can you tell me, on average, how much your company has spent 

in terms of reaching accommodations and employing people with 

disabilities; and likewise, have you taken advantage of any of the 

government programs out there that house small businesses and 

encourage small businesses to encourage hiring people with disabilities. 

Mr. KOSAK. The answer to the first part of your question is, in 

10, 12 years I have invested $7 toward accommodations. That was 

to buy a calculator with oversized numbers so that somebody that 

was visually-challenged was able to see the numbers. 

Accommodating in the workforce, the reality is that we all accommodate for one another all the time. One of the things that my 

crew learned right away is that there is nobody—absolutely nobody 

in the workforce that doesn’t need special assistance at one time 

or the other.

22

Once you get beyond the physical stigmas that are attached, and 

get to the reality of things, you discover right away there is no additional expense. 

My training cost, obviously, went down dramatically. In fact, that 

goes to the point of your second question. There is targeted job tax 

credit, which I have taken advantage of. They are a big help to 

small business—invaluable, I think, in encouraging a company to 

take a shot. 

There is nothing like a grant here or there to make them take 

a step over a line, and then, later they are going to thank you for 

it. 

The training monies that are available, the first few years, I 

couldn’t in clear conscience take it. I was training continuously 

prior to then, and my training had stopped because I didn’t have 

the turnover. 

Now as the glass ceiling has continued to rise, and the technical 

barriers that I sometimes face, whether it be signing; whether it 

be certain things, yes, I am starting to take advantage of some 

that. 

So it is a valuable part of the process, but it is selective because, 

again, I think small business as much as anybody appreciates efficiency and prudence. So you don’t take what you don’t need. But 

it is there. It is important because on occasion you are going to use 

it. 

Mr. UDALL. Along those lines, is there anything, in addition to 

the things you have already stated, the government could or should 

be doing to make it easier to employ people with disabilities? 

Mr. KOSAK. I think the most important role that government can 

play is to take all of these great organizations that are working toward the same end, and getting them on the same page so that 

they understand that—it’s extremely close. 

What we need is to push some politics aside; push philosophies 

aside; pay attention to the needs of the community, and that being 

the needs of small business and the needs of the people that need 

to be employed. They are both out there waiting. 

One group is waiting without employees. The other group is sitting in the living room waiting while we all decide what is best for 

them. I think if we can get these groups together, the answers are 

all out there. So the key thing that government can do is small 

business should be partnering with these agencies—with VR and 

all that. 

We should be paying attention to programs that are out there 

supporting them because they create these stepping stones into the 

community. 

Mr. UDALL. Thank you. And if I could, the last one, if I still have 

time, to Ms. Fiore. If you could describe, in a little bit of detail, the 

process that you engage in when you are going to train someone 

with a disability for a specific job once you’ve been contacted and 

you’re placing the person in the job. 

Ms. FIORE. Certainly. The process that we take is to look at an 

individual’s dreams, and then, ask them to form some actual goals. 

Basically, if an individual has a severe disability, technology and 

tapping in to the services through the public rehab program can 

23

help them get the skills and the technology that they need to overcome those limits. 

We take a very one-on-one, customized approach, adding, not 

only the technology, which is the access for an individual to do a 

job like you saw in the video; but we also take a look at remediating some of the core skills of spelling, reading and writing that 

a person with a disability—a severe disability from birth does not 

always come out of high school with the same level of education as 

an individual who is not disabled. 

For example, if a person with a disability has a scribe that helps 

them write all of their tests and all of their papers during school, 

it is not unlikely to meet a very bright person like Carlos in the 

back of the room who just doesn’t spell very well because it’s later 

in life that he receives that form of access. 

So we take a look at all of the federal programs that are available. We look at the labor market statistics of the business economy—what type of people are they looking to hire, and then, we 

try to match that up with the goals and dreams of people with severe disabilities, using technology and training to bridge the gap. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Ms. Fiore. Mr. Davis, did you 

have any questions? 

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman, I do. Let me, first of all, 

thank you and Ranking Member Velazquez for holding this hearing. As a matter of fact, I have found it to be very intriguing. 

I also want to commend my colleagues, Mr. Langevin and Mr. 

Udall for the leadership and sensitivity that they displayed in relationship to this issue. It was also pleasing to note that although 

neither one of them are what we call veterans around here. 

They are relatively new, but very early and very quickly they 

have seized upon an opportunity on an issue, and I think that 

speaks well to their level of understanding and maturation in what 

it is that they are doing. 

Of course, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the panelists for coming and testifying. Of course, with your being from Illinois, you 

know that we are firm believers in the notion that you can’t lead 

where you don’t go; and that you can’t teach what you don’t know. 

I am very pleased to note that a member of my staff, Bob Hart, 

the good looking gentleman there with the gray suit on, who does 

outstanding work and has prepared an excellent statement to date 

that I would like unanimous consent to submit for the record, if I 

could, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Without objection it will be admitted. 

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. Of course, Bob is challenged. 

Bob is partially blind and I can tell you that the level of work that 

he does—the level of work that he has done and his keen insight 

and understanding, he has been our champion as I am a sponsor 

of the Macassa Bill. 

Bob has done most of our work on Macassa, and I know that it 

is in great hands when he is handling it. So I am going to advocate 

for anybody that has never had a disabled person or a challenged 

person physically working for you, then you, too, might get that experience. 

Then when you have talked to small businesses, you’re talking 

from experience and not from research or speculation. You are talkVerDate 0ct 31 2002 12:06 Nov 14, 2002 Jkt 082585 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A578.XXX A578
24

ing what it is that you actually know. I’ve listened intently to the 

discussion, and it seems to me that we are suggesting that education is an obvious key in terms of trying to acquaint small businesses with the benefits that could, in fact; and would, in fact; and 

does, in fact, derive from their employment of challenged individuals. 

As a matter of fact, in our community we oftentimes don’t allow 

utilization of the term disabled. We have a group that we work 

with, and they just say that they are physically challenged. And 

that it means that they’ve got to put forth a different kind of effort 

sometimes in order to accomplish what others would accomplish. 

My question is, and of course, I was interested, Mr. Kosak, to listen to your testimony and to know that you made pork for the Republican convention. I know that my colleague doesn’t know anything about pork and stuff like that. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Mr. Davis, that’s because I’m a cattle producer. [Laughter.] 

Mr. DAVIS. But my question, in addition, the education—I mean, 

we have got incentives. Are there other legislative things that come 

to mind that we might be able to do that would add another dimension of opportunity for individuals who are, in fact, challenged and 

who could benefit from additional attention to their special needs? 

Ms. FIORE. Yes, may I? 

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. 

Ms. FIORE. The IDEA is the legislation that provides services to 

students with disabilities during the public education process. 

There is very little funding for transition services. 

When a student goes from public education to adulthood, they 

are kind of lost in an unfunded place because the school system is 

waiting for graduation when the 80–year old program of public rehabilitation can take over and start funding services for those students. 

The Office of Vocational Rehabilitation is an alternative. It oper- ates with a $2.3 billion budget serving all of the needs for education, technology and training of not just the people with disabilities, but also, to help the businesses in hiring them. 

So transition funding in the IDEA, and additional 80-year old 

public program of vocational rehabilitation can allow so much more 

to happen. Thank you. 

Mr. DAVIS. Well, thank you very much. And I think a great deal 

like my colleague from California who always thinks big that there 

isn’t enough resource in the allocation and we need to add to that. 

So Mr. Chairman, that concludes my portion. 

Chairman MANZULLO. I appreciate that. One of the shameful 

things that Congress has done is created the unfunded mandate 

idea and turned around and not funded it. It’s been a tremendous 

burden on the local school districts and we have all fought to bring 

it up to the original amount, but it has been funded to about, I 

think, 35 percent. And it’s been woefully deficit. 

Well, thank you all for this testimony. We thank you all for taking the time. If we could get the second panel up here as soon as 

possible. I want to make sure we have plenty of time for them. 

Thanks again. 

(Off the record at 11:40 a.m.) 

25

Chairman MANZULLO. The Committee will come to order. The 

second panel we would like to welcome. As the first witness, Guillermo, Bill—that is a Swedish name like Manzullo, I presume—

Vidal? 

Mr. VIDAL. Vidal. 

Chairman MANZULLO. I look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF GUILLERMO VIDAL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, 

DENVER REGIONAL COUNCIL OF GOVERNMENTS (DRCOG) 

Mr. VIDAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. It’s an honor to be invited to testify in front of you today. 

My name is Guillermo Vidal. I am the executive director of the 

Denver Regional Council of Governments, also known as DRCOG. 

We are a voluntary association of 51 county and municipal governments in the Denver, Colorado metropolitan area, and here we 

work together to resolve our regional issues. We are also the metropolitan planning organization as designated by the federal transportation legislation, the Transportation Equity Act of the 21st 

Century, also known as TEA 21. 

As you can imagine, like any major urban area across the country, the Denver region is grappling with unprecedented growth and 

development. Between 1990 and 2000, we grew by one million new 

residents, and that was a 40 percent increase of population in a 10-

year period. 

We also expect another million people in the next 20 years. So 

our growth, although it may have slowed down some, we are still 

going to see large numbers in our area. This growth brings many 

challenges, none less daunting than providing an adequate transportation system for our region citizens. 

So we as the metropolitan planning organization are the ones 

who work with implementing agencies to develop the transportation plan for our area. That’s why I am here today in support of 

H.R. 1035 sponsored by our own Congressman Mark Udall. 

Because of our responsibility to establish a transportation plan, 

we know that the increase and demand on our highway systems 

makes the effective use of telecommuting an imperative. The basis 

of my support of this bill is threefold. By encouraging small business to adopt telecommuting programs, H.R. 1035 will accelerate 

the practice of telecommuting, which will reduce the number of 

cars on our highways during the peak congestion periods. 

Secondly, DRCOG offers consulting services to the metropolitan 

area employers where we help them establish telecommuting practices and policies. The enactment of H.R. 1035 would potentially increase demand for these services, enabling us to help more employers to establish telecommuting programs. 

Third, you heard some compelling arguments by people with disabilities and small businesses and how many employees they make 

up. We know that transportation services for disabled people who 

cannot drive are greatly underfunded. When you can’t drive, at 

least in our community, you become isolated in that community. 

So H.R. 1035’s emphasis on small businesses to particularly encourage telecommuting of employees with disabilities will allow 

more disabled people to find increased opportunities to enter the 

26

workforce without needing transportation services as they can work 

from home. The technology already exists. 

DRCOG has long been in the business of managing demand on 

our transportation system. In 1999 we created an organization 

called Telework, Colorado. We did so in the firm believe that telecommuting holds great potential as a key element of our region’s 

transportation solution; particularly, because telecommuting completely eliminates commuting trips, not just reduces them like 

other commuting options. 

Even if you telecommute part-time, there is an elimination of 

those trips. Through our experience, we can confirm many impressive results yielded by employers that adopt telecommuting programs. For example, 85 percent of employees participating in 

Telework, Colorado report increased productivity and 90 percent report improved morale due to telecommuting. 

On the average, they save 82 minutes per day due to participation in telecommuting work arrangements. Employees telecommuting are helping reduce the traffic congestion and improve our 

air in Denver. Last year alone, we measured a reduction of nearly 

750,000 commuter vehicle miles and 13 tons of air pollution, a reduction of that, demonstrating the potential for telecommuting to 

help reduce traffic congestion during peak commuting periods. 

By enacting H.R. 1035, you can raise the awareness among small 

businesses about the virtues of telecommuting, thereby, encouraging to adopt telecommuting programs. I also offer our services at 

DRCOG in implementing the provisions of H.R. 1035 should Denver be chosen by the Small Business Administration as one of the 

five SBA regions for its telecommuting program. 

On behalf of the Denver Regional Council of Governments, I urge 

your support for this legislation to bring the productivity and improvement of quality of life and other benefits of telecommuting 

closer to reality for thousands of Americans. Thank you for the opportunity to give this testimony today.

[Mr. Vidal’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Udall, I forgot we had a bifurcated panel. Did you have an 

opening statement that you wanted for this part of this hearing 

that you helped bring together? 

Mr. UDALL. Mr. Chairman, I’m very intrigued to hear the testimony of the panel. If I could include my statement in the record, 

I would appreciate it. 

Chairman MANZULLO. That would be fine. 

Mr. UDALL. I ask unanimous consent to do that. Then when we 

question the panel, I will have an opportunity to make some more 

remarks. 

Chairman MANZULLO. That will be fine. Thank you. I appreciate 

that. 

Mr. Kane, we look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF TIM KANE, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL 

TELEWORK ASSOCIATION AND COUNCIL (ITAC) 

Mr. KANE. Thank you. I would like to thank the Chairman and 

the members of the Committee for inviting me here today to share 

27

my perspectives on telework and express my support of the Small 

Business Telecommuting Act. 

I hope that today I can shed some light on sort of the state of 

telework in this country, which will further lend support to this 

bill, and hopefully, provide some insights as you over the bill forward. 

I feel that my experiences add—I come at this from several dimensions. I am CEO and founder of a company called Kinetic 

Workplace, which is a small business based in Pittsburgh. 

It’s a small business that consults to Fortune 500 and Fortune 

1000 companies on how to set up telework programs. So we work 

with many large organizations. I am also proud to say that I am 

the president of the International Telework Association and Council, whose mission is to drive the growth and success of work independent of location and promote the economic, social and environmental benefits of telework. 

I should probably start by—before I go any further, I should 

probably say that there is a lot of different definitions that float 

around. We hear about telecommuting. We hear about telework. I 

can’t say how often people ask me what the difference is. 

Telecommuting is a concept of people working from home avoiding a commute into the office. Telework is a more encompassing 

concept that enables people to work anywhere at anytime. Those 

are the folks that are working from hotel rooms, airport clubs— those types of things. So I put that forward just as a baseline for 

definitions as we move forward. 

Telework has come a long way; particularly, in the past few 

years. Since 1998, we have seen it increase dramatically in this 

country. ITAC’s annual telework America research from 2001 found 

that there about 28 million teleworkers in the United States. 

That’s up from 1999 when we had 19.6 teleworkers in the country. 

I believe that there are—I have seen also studies out there that 

say there will be about 50 million teleworkers by the year 2006, 

which is about one third of the U.S. workforce. 

What’s attributed to this growth since 1998? I personally believe 

it can be attributed to four things. One, the continuing availability 

of broadband access throughout the U.S. I think there is also an 

increasing emphasis on work/life balance, and the employer’s need 

to compete for precious talent by providing these types of programs. 

Telework is continually in the top three preferred prerequisites 

amongst knowledge workers. Amongst IT workers, it generally 

ranks No. 1 or No. 2. So it is a powerful benefits package for employers. 

I think the third thing is the sharp increase that we saw in rental rates in 1999 and 2000. Many of us in small business in the tech 

industry were paying $90 per square foot for space in markets in 

Boston, San Francisco, Austin, Texas. Now those rates have gone 

down, but it certainly made an impression upon us as to how we 

can lease less space. 

I think that the last thing is the continued comfort that people 

are having with internet security. Virtual private network or VPN 

technology has become very common to people; very accessible to 

businesses; and it gives them a certain level of security that their 

28

data can be put out on the internet to a variety of different locations. 

So I think those four factors have really shaped the growth of 

telework. I think they will continue to shape the growth, and I do 

believe that 50 million teleworkers number is achievable by 2006. 

ITAC’s research is also shedding light on who is teleworking. We 

are starting to learn a lot more. We know that most teleworkers 

are concentrated in the Pacific region or in the Northeast. We know 

that they are generally in a professional or managerial role or in 

a sales position. 

A typical teleworker earns $40,000 a year or more. I think of particular relevance to this Committee, most teleworkers work for either very small organizations—25 employees or less—or very large 

employees, over 1000 employees. The highest concentration out of 

all those brackets is within companies with 1 to 25 employees. 

My experience in helping companies implement programs tells 

me that small businesses are at somewhat of an advantage in implementing telework programs because of their flat organization 

structures. They do not find themselves to be faced with a lot of 

the issues that come up with managerial anxiety, et cetera. 

Chairman MANZULLO. How are you doing on time—talking about 

anxiety. 

Mr. KANE. Speaking of anxiety. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Including 30 seconds there. 

Mr. KANE. Okay. I think that telework is a key for small business. It can provide greater agility, flexibility. It can provide more 

of an opportunity for organizations to reduce costs and increase 

productivity. 

And if I could say one final thing, I think it’s very important that 

the Committee, and the Small Business Administration, looking at 

this bill do a little bit more research into the needs of small business in telework. 

Most major studies have focused on the needs of enterprise, large 

organizations, and I think it can only be helpful to this bill’s effectiveness to delve further into the needs of those small business. So 

I thank you much and I commend Congressman Udall for putting 

this bill forward. 

[Mr. Kane’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you, Mr. Kane. Our next witness is 

Jane Anderson, Executive Director of the Midwest Institute for 

Telecommuting Education, commonly known as MITE. I look forward to hearing your——

Ms. ANDERSON. Affectionately known. 

Chairman MANZULLO. What is that? 

Ms. ANDERSON. Affectionately known. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Affectionately? I look forward to your testimony. 

STATEMENT OF JANE ANDERSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, 

MIDWEST INSTITUTE FOR TELECOMMUTING EDUCATION

Ms. ANDERSON. Thank you, Chairman Manzullo and Ranking 

Member Christian-Christensen and to Congressman Udall for introducing this legislation. 

29

I come from an organization that started in 1989, affiliated with 

the Minneapolis Rehabilitation Center in the Twin Cities, and the 

State of Minnesota, asked us to develop a home-based work program for people with disabilities. 

Along from just encouraging businesses to utilize telework, which 

we strongly advocate, it was also kind of a new concept in the midwest. In the first year, though, there were over 100 people that 

came to us with disabilities who wanted telework jobs. Since then, 

MITE was developed to train employers on all those issues that 

small business have concerns about in hiring someone to be off site. 

So what we have found is that, surprisingly enough, there is a 

whole, hidden pool of people who have chronic changing disabilities, such as multiple sclerosis, arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, 

heart disease, diabetes—the kinds of conditions that when you 

meet the person you may not realize they have a disability. But the 

issue is common among all of them. It is fatigue and lack of stamina to get up, drive to work, spend a whole day working. 

So what we realized is, that whole population is quite broad, and 

the age range was actually from about 30 to 55 years old of people 

referred. They really wanted to work about 30 hours per week to 

ensure they maintained their health. 

So we also saw a need from our employers—the need for a customized skill training before teleworkers went off site, because to 

work remotely you need PC skills. You need customer service skills 

and you need phone etiquette as well. All the kinds of skills that 

you need to interact with people from a distance. 

We also included a flexible training program for teleworkers, and 

along with that, home-based training if some people needed it. So 

that was truly a successful element of our program. 

The types of jobs that most people started, and in terms of meeting the small business need, jobs were customer service—proofers, 

data entry. These are people that have been out of the workforce 

for up to 20 years who were referred. 

Secretaries—I have a home-based secretary who has been with 

me for 11 years, and she has arthritis and has extreme difficulty 

in driving and moving. But she knows our customer base. She 

knows all the individuals that are on staff and works closely with 

us. She comes into work one day per month. 

The important element is that she spends quality time with us, 

not quantity. So I have found that the quantity of time you spend 

in an office doesn’t always necessarily mean that it leads to productivity. 

The necessary teleworker skill, though, particularly wanted from 

our employers we brought on as a small council, was customer 

service. And the small employers also needed to nurture their customer services. The two issues they have are lack of time to implement telework and customer service. So help us do this quickly. 

So the advantage to small businesses were ADA compliance. It 

helped them recognize, through actually doing, the things they 

could implement with people with disabilities. Decreased employee 

recruitment costs—a lot of customer service, a lot of positions in 

companies turn over at the rate of about 33 percent per year; and 

in most companies, it’s too hard to deal with recruitment. 

30

Also, cost containment—saving occupancy costs, as Tim suggested; expanded geographic reach—one company with which we 

worked, Service 800, now has sites in London, Twin Cities and best 

of all, Alexandria, Minnesota. Those are pools of teleworkers that 

work in their homes and they conduct customer service for high 

tech firms, finding out how they’re business product is doing. They 

have grown from 25 employees to 200. 

Obtaining buy-in from the businesses was important, too. So the 

placement approach is that we sat with the businesses and helped 

them determine where is your need? Where do you need staff that 

is not in the office? Where are you not meeting your customer 

needs now? 

So one company we talked with, Precision Tune, brought on four 

people to do customer follow-up. They didn’t have that kind of program. The concerns of small business—how to screen and recruit 

appropriate persons. Once again, vocational rehabilitation and our 

agency helped them do that. 

The support services, in terms of set up—would you help with 

training? That was an important component, too. The employee, 

they felt—they worried they would have lack of knowledge about 

the company. So we assisted teleworkers on going into the office, 

and they needed to spend a little time in the office. And then, once 

again, the customized training. 

Other concerns were safety and liability. There is no greater risk 

for people with disabilities in the home than there is out on the 

road for any of us. Just ask yourself this at rush hour traffic. 

Supervision and productivity—we helped them look at what are 

they really trying to measure. And then, disaster recovery—what 

happens if people can’t get to the office. That proved to be another 

important strategy for small businesses. 

Our major implementation collaborators were the state Vocational Rehabilitation, which helped supplement training monies for 

individuals. Our agency, Resource, Inc, which MITE is a part of, 

the Small Business Association and the Chambers in which we actually conducted training so we could meet their business needs. 

They also wanted those quick-start ways to help them do this. 

So what we found, over time—and this program still continues 

today, and it places 24 people per year. The three-prong approach 

is using a disability placement agency that provides training, 

screening and support; comprehensive telework education for small 

business so they can implement comfortably; and then, support of 

a small employer advisory council and the state Vocational Rehabilitation once again. 

The need is there. The talent is there, now we need the resources 

to open up opportunities for small businesses and for people with 

disabilities to work together. Thank you. 

[Ms. Anderson’s statement may be found in the appendix.] 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. I just have one 

question—actually, it is more of a comment. That is, I come from 

the midwest. Rockford is the second largest city in the state, but 

many of the smaller areas; especially, to the west of Rockford on 

the way to the Mississippi River, have lost population. 

31

We had better come up with new and innovative ways to keep 

the kids in the rural areas—the rural values, the quality of life— otherwise, we are going to have people going to both coasts. 

I mean, it pollutes the air. It jams the traffic. I am particularly 

intrigued because a good friend of mine was a pastor in Miltona, 

Minnesota—not to far from Alexandria—and we caught some good 

fish there together. But Alexandria is what, about two and a half 

hours outside of Twin Cities? 

Ms. ANDERSON. Yes, two and a half. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Then you are about the same distance 

from Fargo, correct? 

Ms. ANDERSON. About four hours.

Chairman MANZULLO. So you really are sort of isolated there. 

How many people are working on the telephone there in that city? 

Ms. ANDERSON. They hired 60 people to work in their homes. 

SERVICE 800 no longer recruits—they no longer have any difficulty recruiting people. 

Chairman MANZULLO. So the people all live in the small town. 

Ms. ANDERSON. In or about, yes. 

Chairman MANZULLO. But they all work out of their homes individually. That’s an amazing story. 

Congressman Udall, first of all, thank you for this segment of the 

hearing. This is really fascinating, and please, go ahead. 

Mr. UDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said earlier, I look 

forward to seeing my statement in the record. I would like to turn 

to the panel for some questions. But before I do that, I did want 

to thank you and Ranking Member Velazquez and Ranking Member today Donna Christian-Christensen for holding the hearing 

today. This has been a good day for all of us. 

I did also want to also acknowledge the two staffers in my office 

who worked really hard on this, Ian Pfeiffer, who now works for 

Congressman Filner, initially, brought this idea forward; and then, 

Zach Phillips, who is here today with me. They have done the yeoman’s work on this particular area. I just very pleased that we 

have had a chance today to begin the discussion. 

I think we saw in the hearing on Congressman Langevin’s bill 

the synergies that exist with telecommuting, telework of the disabled community. Mr. Chairman, you have talked about the great 

benefits we see in the environmental arena if we get people off the 

roads, and my good friend, Guillermo Vidal talked about it in the 

Denver area in particular. 

I would like to just mention that this bill has also been introduced by Senator Kerry in the Senate. He was motivated, as was 

I, by the realization that small businesses—and Tim you talked 

about this—were in many ways being left behind when it came to 

teleworking and telecommuting. 

The whole idea of this legislation is to encourage the Small Business Administration—to give them the statutory authority to conduct a pilot program to raise additional awareness about telecommuting and telework. We would create five regions and the SBA 

would then bring these pilot programs into those regions. We hope 

that we would see one in Denver, of course; but it would be most 

important that we begin the process of making these programs 

available to people across the country. 

32

Let me just throw out a general questions to the panel. I think 

we all know how strongly the case can be made to the benefits of 

telecommuting and telework. There are some folks who would 

rebut those arguments or who would say there are some problems. 

I would just like each one of you to talk, just briefly, about the 

problems that have been suggested that might arise and what you 

have seen actually in reality when it comes to the work place. 

Maybe we can start with Guillermo and then move right down 

the line. 

Mr. VIDAL. We spent a lot of time, actually—we are a consultant 

to businesses to establish telecommuting policies. What we are 

finding—the biggest problem is normally one of education. I think, 

culturally, it seems like we are more used to measuring attendance 

than we are performance. So that sometimes what you have to do 

is how do you structure the measuring of performance of the employee? 

What we have found in helping businesses is that once we do 

that, and they get over the discomfort that this person may not be 

showing up to the office every day, and they start seeing the production that’s happening from home, what we find is that employers are—I mean, we have found this 100 percent of the time that 

employers are convinced that this is a great tool for morale, productivity and actually for attracting new employees. 

So we find that if you can cross that barrier of education that 

you can get converts. 

Mr. UDALL. Bill, in the Denver area you have a wide membership 

in this consortium that’s supporting telecommuting. Would you just 

share with the Committee some of the organizations and some of 

the interests that supported this effort? 

Mr. VIDAL. Well, most of the people that have supported this effort have been large businesses such as AT&T and CH2M HILL, 

which is a large engineering consulting firm. But also, the downtown Denver partnership, which is basically a membership organization of businesses in the lower downtown area, have really sponsored what we are doing in telework for the reasons that I mentioned. 

I think that because small businesses make up such a larger 

number of employers, that there is great interest in doing more for 

small businesses. 

Mr. UDALL. So it is very broad-based. 

Mr. VIDAL. Very broad-based. 

Mr. UDALL. We have got a number of municipal governments—

regional government entities and wide support among those entities as well, is that right? 

Mr. VIDAL. Yes. 

Mr. UDALL. Tim, talk a little bit about the concerns people raise 

with telecommuting and what you have learned and how you would 

respond. 

Mr. KANE. It is almost—over eight years of doing this, I have 

kind of come up with like a David Letterman Top 10 list of things 

that I always hear when I talk to people. I would say some of the 

top ones are how do people—everyone wants to work in teams 

today. How do they work in teams if they are not physically proximate? 

33

We all know that there are a lot of technological tools out there— instant messaging. There are a lot of other tools to facilitate those 

type of communication. 

The second would be what is my increased cost in IT? Oftentimes, today, it’s a minimal investment for an organization from an 

IT infrastructure standpoint to make the transition over. A lot of 

it is more around training—making sure that people are ready to 

go into that more virtual-type of environment. 

Number two would probably be what is the increased liability? 

I can’t tell you how many times people say somebody goes to the 

refrigerator, trips and falls, and I have got a workman’s comp 

claim. I think, through this bill and SBA’s work, there is a lot of 

education that can be done. There has been a study at the U.S. Department of Labor that has shown the number of instances of 

workman’s comp claims amongst teleworkers is statistically meaningless. 

Then last, the number one reason that we all come across is how 

do I know they are working if I can’t see them? And we just 

touched on this. How do you know they’re working if you can see 

them? How do you know they’re working if you’re in the office? As 

the gentleman mentioned about objectives-oriented measurements—those types of things. 

All these things can be overcome through education and just 

making people aware of things. It’s out there. It exists today. It can 

be done. 

Mr. UDALL. All the more reason for a program or a set of programs that would provide educational services to small businesses 

to answer so many of those questions. 

Jane, I listened with great interest to your testimony, and 

thanks for this very comprehensive statement and presentation 

that you have provided us. 

When you talked about your assistant with arthritis and so on, 

I was reminded of the fact that I have a very good friend who was 

paralyzed from the waist down in a climbing accident. He, at one 

point, began to call me a TAB. I said what is that term? He said 

you are temporarily able-bodied. 

The point was that all of us, at some point or another, are going 

to have a disability. And you don’t think of arthritis necessarily as 

a disability, but many of us are going to face conditions as the baby 

boomer generation ages. 

Mr. Chairman, as the stock market continues to fall, and all of 

us look at working longer and longer, we are going to want to have, 

I think, in our own generation access to these tools that technology 

is now providing us; and so many of us maybe telecommuting and 

teleworking as we work longer in our lives, too, for all the good reasons to be more serious. 

Would you just speak to my question as well? The arguments 

about, well, this won’t work and people don’t see each and how you 

have responded and what you have seen through experience. 

Ms. ANDERSON. Thank you. Through our experiences, we have 

found that—I supervise people that are off site, and I consider myself similar to a small business, even though, I’m non-profit. Well, 

actually, I might be a lot of small businesses at this point, too, but 

what we do is plan our communications and that’s what it takes. 

34

That you plan your time together and your time when you communicate by phone and by e-mail. 

It makes it much more efficient rather than having someone’s go 

to someone desk in the office eight times a day with a different 

question each time, and then, distracting them. Most of productivity is lost due to interruptions and distraction. 

I want to give you an example. We worked with Hennepin County, and they had ticket processers on site in cubicles. The average 

number of tickets they processed per day was 450. They moved 

them totally off site full-time and the number of tickets processed 

per day per person went up to 900. They said ‘‘What was going 

on?’’ They said the distractions. People stop by and say hello. The 

minute is lost. We found that in our organization, too. You lose so 

much productivity because lots of jobs require thinking, writing, reporting, talking, and communicating. If that train of thought is 

lost, it is hard to regather it. 

I think another issue concerning people with disabilities is the 

sense of isolation, and that, a long time ago was brought up as a 

major issue. Well, here we are isolating people. But we actually—

MITE worked with the Virginia Commonwealth University a year 

ago to survey 60 teleworkers with disabilities who had been off site 

for two or more years, and asked them that question about isolation. 

Over 90 percent said they never feel isolated, and one of the reasons is that they communicate with their employer. They communicate with their team in other ways and they also have time for 

family. They balance their work and life better. As Tim brought up, 

too, balancing the work and life. 

Regarding the liability and safety issue—we worked with St. 

Paul Company Insurance, and that was very important at the beginning to get a grasp on what is the actual liability issues. St. 

Paul Companies is not concerned about home-based workers or 

teleworkers. They are worried about those of us with lap tops and 

cell phones, using them inappropriately most of the time. 

They said that is where our injuries are. That is where our worker’s comp injuries are. It is not so much with people that are working in their home. They know their homes. For people with disabilities, I think, ergonomics is important because poor ergonomics 

points to more fatigue and strain as in the office. 

So what we found was that, interestingly enough, companies who 

have good worker’s comp programs on site will have good worker’s 

comp programs and ergonomic programs off site, too. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you. Mr. Langevin, do you have 

any questions? 

Mr. LANGEVIN. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding 

this hearing, and Mr. Udall for sponsoring this legislation. I am 

proud to be supporting it. Thank you to members of the panel. 

Not so much a question as a comment because I want to yield 

my time to my colleague. Telecommuting is becoming more and 

more of an essential option for businesses, both in terms of attracting employees and in terms of cost-cutting, not to mention that this 

is a wonderful option—a great marriage between those with disabilities and small businesses allowing them to partner up. 

35

Ironically, I was doing work in Florida over the weekend, and 

had the opportunity to meet with the vice president of a major telecommunications company in this country. He was describing how 

one company, by way of example, Jetblue, cut costs. They are a 

major user of telecommuting services now. They eliminated the 

need to lease a building when they are doing their bookings in 

terms of having people actually come there. They have a software 

package that can move around with the individual. 

If someone moves, they can just take it with them and they are 

still an employee of Jetblue booking people on their flights. Again, 

it is helping their productivity as well as attracting and keeping 

employees. 

With that, I would like to yield the balance of my time to my colleague, Mr. Udall. 

Mr. UDALL. Thank you, Mr. Langevin. Mr. Chairman, you have 

been very flexible here. I thought I would ask one final question 

because I know we are running late. In an area of great interest 

to you, and you just alluded to your concerns and interest, and 

that’s broadband access. I would ask the panel if they have any advice or concern about broadband access and how important it is or 

isn’t to telecommuting and telework? I know, Mr. Kane, you work 

particularly in this area. 

Mr. KANE. Prior to 1998, one of the main things that stopped the 

growth of telework was access and speed—access to the home. Most 

people in earlier studies found that they would rather go into the 

office. The reason that they did not telework was because they 

were connected at 2088 or something like that, that just did not 

provide them with the same speed and productivity that they could 

get from the office. 

Broadband has changed that dramatically. We are now seeing, 

through DSL, cable modem, and now we’re seeing some great technology coming out in satellite broadband, which really takes away 

that ‘last mile’ and frees it up to a lot more folks. I think that is 

going to be essential for the continued growth of telework. And 

having more robust applications, people will be able to do them 

from anywhere at anytime. It’s going to be critical to have that 

speed. I have seen it dramatically since 1998 cause the explosive 

growth of telework. 

Mr. UDALL. So you would encourage us to continue our support 

of broadband deployment and to continue to work on the problem 

of so-called digital divide. That is an area in which we need to continue to pay attention; particularly, when it comes to rural areas 

and some cases urban areas that are also distressed. 

Mr. KANE. I think that’s essential. And just to the Chairman’s 

issue about the rural telecommunicating, I know that there is some 

great work going on right now at Washington State University on 

that subject matter. So I would encourage the Committee, if that 

is something that you would like to talk to those folks. 

Mr. UDALL. Mr. Chairman, again, if I could conclude, I would 

like to thank you for holding the hearing today. I wanted to thank 

our panel for taking their time, and I know we are going to call 

on you in the future as we hope we can move this legislation and 

Mr. Langevin’s as well. 

36

I did want to, again, thank my good friend, Guillermo Vidal, for 

making the long trip. I would point out, Mr. Chairman, Guillermo 

headed our DOT, Department of Transportation, under Governor 

Romer. So he was involved in the physical movement of people and 

ideas and culture and goods. Now he is involved in a virtual enterprise of moving people and goods and services and ideas. 

I want to thank you for your leadership and look forward to 

working with you in the future. Mr. Chairman, again, thank you. 

Chairman MANZULLO. Thank you very much. There was an article that appeared in the Rockford, Illinois newspaper on Sunday 

dealing with the tremendous challenges to our manufacturing base, 

and Norma Wooten King, who runs a place called Eveready Pin. 

She was asked why she was busy. She said the first thing you do 

is you never have an automatic answering machine—that voice 

mail or whatever it is answer a business. 

I know we are going to get some people offended here and everything, but I will call a business something—if I get that machine, 

I will just hang up and call somebody else. I don’t have time to go 

through the steps to hit this number, hit that number and sometimes you have those kitchen telephones where you are actually 

holding the entire telephone yourself. So you have got to listen to 

the directions, take it down, hit the right number, by that time, 

you missed the other one. 

She talked about the fact that when people call, they want a real, 

live voice answering as opposed to somebody giving all those directions. So whatever you could do to encourage people in business— especially, the big people. Actually, the small businesses now. The 

fact that you have that animated voice coming on is just so unappealing. I think it does more to turn away business and whatever 

you can do to displace those voices with some real live people working out of their homes, I think that’s tremendous. 

Mr. UDALL. Would the chairman yield? 

Chairman MANZULLO. Of course. I know you concur with that, 

don’t you? 

Mr. UDALL. I do very much. I cannot recollect which witness it 

was. It may have been Jane, who talked about the concept of high 

tech/high touch, and the underlying theory is that as technology 

evolves and becomes more and more sophisticated, there is still a 

human need to have that high touch component. In other words, 

we still want to interact with each other through physical contact, 

through voice contact and a machine doesn’t do it. 

One of the interesting things Jane was talking about was people 

being isolated or thinking they were going to be isolated. I can tell 

you, my daughter, on instant messaging, doesn’t seem to me to be 

very isolated, even though, she is at home talking to her friends 

using that technology all over the city in which I live. So I wanted 

to agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. 

Chairman MANZULLO. I appreciate that. Well, thank you all for 

coming to Washington. Next year, if things remain the same, we 

need to follow up on this. You can tell I’m from the midwest here, 

but you guys have hit upon something that is so critical. 

We have been talking about this in terms of how do we keep the 

kids in the small towns. We have got to move certain segments of 

business in large cities back to the small towns and that’s being 

37

done with what the three of you are doing. Your testimony is almost prophetic. It’s just the beginning of, as far as I’m concerned, 

the study on how to revitalize the small towns in America. 

Thank you again—thank both of you for the tremendous effort in 

bringing in great witnesses. These witnesses today are absolutely 

stellar. Again, thank you. This Committee is adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 12:42 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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