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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY 

 AND RENEWABLE ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 BUILDING TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 ENERGY CONSERVATION PROGRAM: TEST 

 PROCEDURES FOR FLUORESCENT LAMP BALLASTS 

 + + + + + 

 FEBRUARY 2, 2009 

 + + + + + 

 The meeting convened at the 

Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, 

S.W., Washington, D.C. 20585, at 10:30 a.m., 

Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Department of 

Energy 

DIANA BURK, Navigant Consulting 

LINDA GRAVES, Department of Energy 

PEKKA HAKKARAINEN, Lutron/NEMA 

DAIN HANSEN, NEMA 

MICHAEL MEYER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

CONAN O'ROURKE, Lighting Research Center 

FRANCINE PINTO, Department of Energy 

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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

 PAGE 

I. Introductions 3 

II. Opening Remarks -- 

III. Regulatory History: Interpretation 7 

 of Active Mode, Standby Mode, and 

 Off Mode 

IV. Scope of Applicability 9 

V. Presentation on Standby Mode 17 

 Overview 

VI. New Test Conditions for Measuring 29 

 Standby Mode Power 

VII. Test Procedure Measurements and 30 

 Burdens 

VIII. Other Issues and Comments 37 

IX. Closing Remarks 38 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (10:39 a.m.) 

3 MS. GRAVES: Good morning, and 

4 welcome to the U.S. Department of Energy. 

5 This is the meeting on test procedures for 

6 fluorescent lamp ballasts in standby mode. 

7 I am Linda Graves. I am the 

8 Project Leader for lighting standards for the 

9 Department, and I am being joined by 

10 contractors on my team. 

11 The purpose of today's meeting is 

12 to present to you the test procedures DOE is 

13 proposing and to seek your comment on this 

14 test procedure. We have specific issues that 

15 we would particularly like to receive your 

16 comments on, and we will also be discussing 

17 the next steps, what happens after the public 

18 comment period. 

19 This meeting will be run by our 

20 able Facilitator, Doug Brookman, and so right 

21 now I am going to turn it over to Doug. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

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1 Linda. 

2 It is our tradition to ask for 

3 each person to introduce him or herself. So 

4 maybe we could start with that, and I'll start 

5 with Francine. Name and organizational 

6 affiliation. 

7 MS. PINTO: I'm Francine Pinto 

8 from the General Counsel's Office in the 

9 Department of Energy. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 MR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm Pekka 

12 Hakkarainen. I work for Lutron Electronics, 

13 and I am the Vice Chair of NEMA's Lighting 

14 Systems Division. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

16 You may need to pull these microphones a 

17 little closer to you. 

18 MR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm sorry. 

19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: That's 

20 good. Okay. We heard that. Thank you. 

21 MR. HANSEN: My name is Dain 

22 Hansen with NEMA, and I work in NEMA's 

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1 Government Relations. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 MS. BURK: I'm Diana Burk, and I 

4 work with Navigant Consulting. 

5 MR. FERRERA: I'm Chris Sequeira. 

6 I'm with Navigant Consulting. 

7 MR. O'ROURKE: Conan O'Rourke, 

8 Lighting Research Center. 

9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 Okay. 

11 So I think all of you received a 

12 copy of the agenda, along with the packet of 

13 slides and the proposed rule, as published in 

14 the Federal Register. I'm just going to run 

15 through the agenda really quick. 

16 Following this agenda review, 

17 there is an opportunity for anybody that 

18 wishes to do so to make opening remarks, brief 

19 comments about the issues that matter most to 

20 you. Following that, we are going to plunge 

21 right into the regulatory history and an 

22 interpretation of active mode, standby mode, 

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1 and off mode, and go from there to the scope 

2 of applicability. 

3 Following that, we will have a 

4 presentation followed by discussion on standby 

5 mode overview. Following that, new test 

6 conditions for measuring standby mode power, 

7 and then proceeding -- test procedure 

8 measurements and burdens, and then other 

9 issues and comments and closing remarks. 

10 There is that opportunity, as we 

11 get to around about noon or so today for 

12 anybody that wishes to make additional 

13 comments, say anything additional on the 

14 record that you think is important, before we 

15 adjourn at 12:45 today. So that's the plan. 

16 Questions/comments here at the 

17 outset? 

18 (No response.) 

19 Okay. So, then, now is an 

20 opportunity for anybody that wishes to do so 

21 to make brief summary remarks about issues, 

22 should you have any. 

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1 (No response.) 

2 No? Not at this point. Okay. So 

3 we will proceed, then. 

4 MS. GRAVES: So I would like to 

5 just very briefly go over the regulatory 

6 history for this rule. It starts with the 

7 Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975, 

8 which established energy conservation 

9 standards and the methods of test procedure 

10 development for consumer products. 

11 This was followed by amendments to 

12 the National Appliance Energy Conservation, 

13 which added fluorescent lamp ballasts as 

14 covered products, required development of a 

15 test procedure, set minimum efficiency 

16 standards, and required DOE to review those 

17 standards periodically. 

18 Then, in 1989, DOE established 

19 fluorescent lamp ballast test procedures, and 

20 then, more recently, the Energy Independence 

21 and Security Act of 2007 required DOE to amend 

22 the fluorescent lamp ballast test procedures 

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1 to address standby and off modes. All of this 

2 is described at much greater detail in the 

3 Authority and Background Section of the Notice 

4 of Proposed Rulemaking. 

5 Thank you. 

6 MS. BURK: Hello. My name is 

7 Diana Burk, and I am with Navigant Consulting. 

8 I will be discussing DOE's interpretation of 

9 active mode, standby mode, and off mode, and 

10 then talking about which ballasts are covered 

11 by this rulemaking. And then, I will -- 

12 finally, Conan will get to the real heart of 

13 the test procedure, talk about what it is, the 

14 new test conditions it requires, and any 

15 burdens it may place on manufacturers. 

16 To truly understand what standby 

17 mode and off mode means, DOE must first 

18 interpret the definition of active mode. EPCA 

19 defines active mode as the condition in which 

20 an energy-using product satisfies three 

21 criteria -- the energy-using product must be 

22 connected to a main power source, it must be 

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1 activated, and it must provide one or more 

2 main functions. 

3 DOE believes a ballast is in 

4 active mode if it is operating one or more 

5 fluorescent lamps. In this case, the ballast 

6 is connected to mains, it's activated, it is 

7 providing a regulated current for those lamps, 

8 and it is providing its main function of 

9 operating those lamps. 

10 To account for both dimmable and 

11 non-dimmable ballasts, DOE defines active mode 

12 as when the lamp and ballast system exhibits 

13 any non-zero level of light output. 

14 Therefore, active mode exists when light 

15 output is greater than zero percent. 

16 So right now we would like to 

17 invite comment on DOE's interpretation of 

18 active mode, if anybody has any comments. 

19 (No response.) 

20 Okay. So now we go on to standby 

21 mode. EPCA defines standby mode as the 

22 condition in which an energy-using product 

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1 satisfies two conditions. The first condition 

2 is that it must be connected to a main power 

3 source. The second condition is that it must 

4 offer one or more user-oriented or protective 

5 functions listed below. 

6 It could facilitate the activation 

7 or deactivation of other functions, like the 

8 active mode function, by remote switch, 

9 internal sensor, or timer. It could also have 

10 continuous functions, including information or 

11 status displays, or any sensor-based 

12 functions. 

13 For this test procedure, DOE is 

14 focusing on two aspects of the EPCA definition 

15 -- connection to a main power source, its 

16 ability to facilitate the activation or 

17 deactivation of other functions by remote 

18 switch or internal sensor. 

19 DOE believes that the vast 

20 majority of ballasts do not enter standby 

21 mode. When they are not -- when the lamp and 

22 ballast system is not emitting any light, the 

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1 ballasts are turned off via switch. That 

2 would disconnect the ballast from main's 

3 power, so they don't satisfy the first 

4 criteria of standby mode that they are 

5 connected to mains. 

6 However, DOE does believe that 

7 standby mode does apply to certain ballasts 

8 that have lighting control systems. At zero 

9 light output, the ballast is consuming energy 

10 while awaiting instruction from the lighting 

11 control system to tell it to turn on. In this 

12 case, the ballast is connected to main. It is 

13 -- and it is -- so it satisfies the first 

14 criteria, and it satisfies the second 

15 criterion that it is facilitating the 

16 activation or deactivation of its active mode 

17 function. 

18 DOE invites comment on this 

19 interpretation of standby mode for ballasts. 

20 If anybody has any comments? No? 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So just to 

22 be clear, these definitions, these two that we 

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1 have laid out so far, you all are comfortable 

2 with those two? 

3 MR. HANSEN: Yes, so far. 

4 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Yes. 

5 MR. HANSEN: I mean, yes. 

6 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

7 Dain and Pekka, both. Thank you. 

8 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Yes. As far as 

9 the definitions go, correct. 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. 

11 Okay. 

12 MS. BURK: Now I move on to off 

13 mode. EPCA defines off mode as the condition 

14 in which an energy-using product satisfies two 

15 criteria. It must be connected to mains, and 

16 it must not provide any standby or active mode 

17 function. And EISA requires DOE to address 

18 off mode in this test procedure. 

19 DOE believes that off mode does 

20 not apply to fluorescent lamp ballasts. The 

21 ballast in this system is producing any amount 

22 of light that -- the ballast is in active 

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1 mode. At zero light output, DOE believes the 

2 ballast is in one of two conditions. 

3 The ballast could either be 

4 connected to mains, while waiting for lighting 

5 control instructions, and that ballast would 

6 be considered to be in standby mode. And if 

7 it's not in standby mode, DOE believes that 

8 the ballast would be disconnected from the 

9 main power source, which would not meet the 

10 first criteria of off mode. So DOE proposes 

11 not to incorporate a test method for off mode 

12 energy consumption. 

13 And, right now, we are inviting 

14 comment on this interpretation of off mode. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Should 

16 there be any additional comments? I see none. 

17 Okay. 

18 MS. BURK: Okay. So which 

19 ballasts are applicable to this test 

20 procedure? DOE is considering that standby 

21 mode only applies to ballasts that incorporate 

22 a lighting control interface. Although DOE 

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1 does not currently cover many of the ballasts 

2 that have a lighting control interface, like 

3 T8 ballasts or dimming ballasts currently, DOE 

4 does have the authority to cover these 

5 ballasts in the ballast energy conservation 

6 standards rulemaking, which was initiated 

7 January of last year. 

8 So right now we would like to 

9 invite comment on DOE's interpretation of 

10 which ballasts are covered by this test 

11 procedure. 

12 (No response.) 

13 No comment? 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No comments 

15 on the coverage. Okay. 

16 MS. BURK: Okay. The fluorescent 

17 lamp ballast standby and off mode test 

18 procedure final rule -- EISA deadline is March 

19 31, 2009. The effective date of this test 

20 procedure will become -- will be 30 days after 

21 its publication in the Federal Register. 

22 However, we want you guys to know 

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1 that this standby test procedure final rule 

2 will not change how manufacturers measure and 

3 established compliance with existing energy 

4 conservation standards. Manufacturers will 

5 only have to use this test procedure if 

6 standby mode energy conservation standards are 

7 adopted in the energy conservation standards 

8 rulemaking. And that final rule will be in 

9 June 2011, and it will not become effective 

10 until at least three years after that rule, 

11 which is June of 2014. 

12 DOE is planning to initiate a test 

13 procedure rulemaking in 2009 to review and 

14 possibly amend the active mode efficiency 

15 measurement of ballasts. In this test 

16 procedure, DOE will consider updating the 

17 references to industry standards, so that they 

18 harmonize with the reference standards and 

19 today's proposed standby mode test procedure. 

20 And Conan will discuss that a little bit more 

21 in his section. 

22 Now, Conan can take over. 

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So before 

2 we ask, Dain, please. 

3 MR. HANSEN: I just have a quick 

4 question. This is Dain Hansen with NEMA. 

5 MS. BURK: Sure. 

6 MR. HANSEN: Just some 

7 clarification. So the deadline is March 31, 

8 2009. 

9 MS. BURK: Right. 

10 MR. HANSEN: And then, the 

11 comments aren't due until a week after that, 

12 is that correct? 

13 MS. BURK: Yes. 

14 MR. HANSEN: Okay. I just wanted 

15 to make sure. 

16 MS. PINTO: This is Francine 

17 Pinto. There is a 75-day comment period -- 

18 MR. HANSEN: Okay. 

19 MS. PINTO: -- for test 

20 procedures. So, obviously, we will not 

21 publish a final rule by March 31st. 

22 MR. HANSEN: Great. Thank you. 

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

2 And before we move on to Conan, are there any 

3 other comments or issues that you wish to 

4 raise on the slides that we have presented so 

5 far? 

6 (No response.) 

7 Okay. 

8 MR. O'ROURKE: Thank you, Diana. 

9 This is Conan O'Rourke from the Lighting 

10 Research Center, and I am going to be covering 

11 the next three sections dealing with the 

12 standby mode overview, new test conditions for 

13 measuring standby mode power, and the test 

14 procedure measurements and burden. 

15 So just generally talking, Diana 

16 has already presented this, but the standby 

17 mode for fluorescent lamp ballasts really only 

18 applies to the part of the lighting system 

19 that is controlling the part of the ballast 

20 that is connected to the lighting system. 

21 In standby mode, we are talking 

22 that the ballast should be operating the lamp 

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1 such that there would be no light output 

2 coming from the lamps, and there may be some 

3 energy consumed within the ballast while it is 

4 awaiting a control signal. 

5 So in the diagram we are showing 

6 here, we have as inputs the main input power 

7 control signal, and on the output we have no 

8 current going to the lamps for the zero light 

9 output. And standby power, in this case we 

10 are talking about any input power or any power 

11 coming from the control signal itself. 

12 So the method for measurement of 

13 standby power, it would be sending a signal to 

14 the ballast to put it into the standby mode, 

15 and be measuring input power and watts in 

16 accordance with ANSI Standard C82.2-2002, 

17 Section 13. And there are many possible ways 

18 to apply a control signal, and in this test 

19 procedure we are discussing the alternating 

20 current, or AC signal, direct current, DC 

21 signal, a power line carrier signal, and we do 

22 make a comment about any wireless type of 

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1 signals. 

2 We estimate that it would be far 

3 less than a watt for any irradiated power 

4 through a wireless signal. So for this 

5 purpose it is not part of this test procedure 

6 discussion. 

7 So for the AC control signal, here 

8 we are just showing a diagram that is similar 

9 to what is found in current ANSI Standards, 

10 showing where we have input power coming from 

11 the AC control voltage and being applied to 

12 the terminals at the ballast. And we are 

13 measuring wattage and also to measure voltage 

14 in current. So this would be anything applied 

15 by a separate set of wires that would be for 

16 the purpose of putting the ballast into 

17 standby mode. 

18 For the direct current control 

19 signal, this again is some additional set of 

20 wires that would be connected to the ballast 

21 to supply this signal. And as in the last 

22 diagram, we are showing that the signal is 

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1 coming from some DC control signal and being 

2 applied to some separate terminals at the 

3 ballast, measuring voltage and current to 

4 determine the power. 

5 So in this case, it would be just 

6 a multiplication of that voltage and current 

7 to determine what the power would be. 

8 Any questions on this? Pekka? 

9 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Yes. Pekka 

10 Hakkarainen with Lutron. I am not clear on 

11 the rationale for including the control signal 

12 power. 

13 MR. O'ROURKE: The only -- 

14 MR. HAKKARAINEN: If I can just 

15 finish the statement. The power that is 

16 dissipated in that is often not originating in 

17 the ballast, but it can be originating in 

18 other equipment. So I am not understanding 

19 why that definition is included in the ballast 

20 standby power. 

21 MR. O'ROURKE: It is correct that 

22 the control unit itself may be using 

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1 additional power that does not apply here. 

2 But what applies here is if there is some 

3 significant amount of power that is being 

4 supplied to the ballast, and the ballast is 

5 using that power, we will want to make sure we 

6 are able to account for that. 

7 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Is it clear that 

8 this method of measurement captures only what 

9 is consumed in the ballast? 

10 MR. O'ROURKE: Yes, because it 

11 would be measuring it from in between the 

12 control signal being applied to the ballast 

13 this would be at the terminals of the ballast. 

14 So you would be making this right at the 

15 ballast terminals for this DC or AC or other 

16 type of connection. 

17 So it wouldn't be, say, upstream 

18 where you have the time clock or some other 

19 building automation system. This would just 

20 be at the ballast input. So any current that 

21 would be measured would be current going into 

22 the ballast and being used by the ballast and 

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1 only the ballast. 

2 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Well, the 

3 diagram that you show is symmetric relative to 

4 the ballast and the -- 

5 MR. O'ROURKE: Control system. 

6 MR. HAKKARAINEN: -- control 

7 device. 

8 MR. O'ROURKE: Correct. 

9 MR. HAKKARAINEN: So it could be 

10 argued that it equally measures -- it measures 

11 the power dissipation potentially in the 

12 control device as well. 

13 MR. O'ROURKE: It only -- 

14 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Or may have a 

15 component of that. I just want to make sure 

16 that we carefully isolate what is actually -- 

17 MR. O'ROURKE: Yes. 

18 MR. HAKKARAINEN: -- consumed in 

19 the ballast. 

20 MR. O'ROURKE: Yes. This is the 

21 intent, just to measure the input at the 

22 ballast. 

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And you do 

2 carefully isolate. That is, you are measuring 

3 the front end there, right? 

4 MR. O'ROURKE: That's correct. 

5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MS. PINTO: This is Francine 

7 Pinto. Maybe to just make sure that this is 

8 clear, maybe you could point to the regulatory 

9 text -- 

10 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

11 MS. PINTO: -- so that our 

12 commenters/stakeholders can look at it and see 

13 if it does isolate it. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. 

15 MS. PINTO: Maybe you can find -- 

16 MR. O'ROURKE: Well, we drew these 

17 diagrams as they appear in the ANSI Standards 

18 right now for making input power measurements. 

19 So we tried to make them all using the same 

20 kind of language, same kind of drawings, that 

21 would be similar to what is already in the 

22 ANSI Standard test procedures. 

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: How would 

2 this diagram be different to reflect your 

3 concern and isolate the -- would it be -- 

4 would you move the control signal overall? 

5 MR. HAKKARAINEN: I'm not sure 

6 that I would design that circuit in -- you 

7 know, on the spot. I am -- 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

9 MR. HAKKARAINEN: -- actually not 

10 an electronics engineer, so I would just like 

11 -- 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Nor are you 

13 a graphic designer probably. 

14 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Right. Nor am I 

15 a graphic designer. 

16 (Laughter.) 

17 So I would just like to have the 

18 opportunity to examine and make suggestions at 

19 another time perhaps. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Right. Do 

21 we have the citation that Francine was 

22 referencing? Can we get that? Can we provide 

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1 that specific -- Diana, you'll need to find a 

2 microphone. 

3 MS. BURK: The figure up here is 

4 that 3.5.3.2. 

5 MS. GRAVES: Do you want to 

6 identify yourself? 

7 MS. BURK: My name is Diana Burk, 

8 and the citation for the figure appears in the 

9 Federal Register notice on page 743461 -- 74 

10 FR 3461. 

11 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And you 

12 have a copy of that Federal Register notice in 

13 your packet, Pekka. 

14 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Okay. 

15 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

16 MS. BURK: And the comment period 

17 is open until April 6th, so -- 

18 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Okay. 

19 MS. BURK: -- you can submit a 

20 written comment. 

21 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Very good. 

22 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

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1 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Thank you. 

2 MR. O'ROURKE: Thank you, Pekka. 

3 The next power lines -- the next 

4 control signal we are going to discuss is the 

5 power line carrier signal. And in this case, 

6 the power line carrier signal is supplied on 

7 the same wires that the input power is 

8 supplied to the ballast. So there are no 

9 additional wiring. 

10 So the key to being able to make 

11 this measurement clearly, is that you would 

12 have to be able to filter out the 60 Hertz 

13 power in order to measure the higher frequency 

14 power line carrier signal properly. We also 

15 give guidance that the meter must be capable 

16 of measuring this higher frequency signal that 

17 it is trying to measure by a factor of 10 

18 times greater than the signal being applied. 

19 And this is measured the same way 

20 where you have input power from, or the input 

21 signal from the power line control voltage and 

22 applied to the input terminals at the ballast. 

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1 

2 Any questions on this, Pekka? 

3 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Other than 

4 potentially the same concern as -- 

5 MR. O'ROURKE: Right. I assume 

6 that concern applies to all of these. 

7 MR. HAKKARAINEN: No, no other 

8 comments. 

9 MR. O'ROURKE: Okay. Thank you. 

10 And as I mentioned earlier, for 

11 wireless control the Department believes that 

12 there isn't going to be any appreciable amount 

13 of power applied to the ballast. If you've 

14 got wireless, it would be well less than a 

15 watt. 

16 One question we had received in 

17 the past related to, well, how about the 

18 receiver in the ballast? And it is the 

19 Department's assumption that the receiver 

20 power will be being drawn from the input to 

21 the ballast. So if there was any receiver 

22 power to be drawn, we would see it as input 

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1 power to the ballast, and it does not have to 

2 have be counted separately as part of the 

3 wireless power. 

4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any 

5 comments on wireless? 

6 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Pekka 

7 Hakkarainen again. If I can -- my comment 

8 here would be that this wireless situation is 

9 actually cleaner than the wired situation. 

10 And I am looking for the same kind of clarity 

11 between the two. It is clear to me also that 

12 the receiver power would be generated in the 

13 ballast most likely, as opposed to the power 

14 being carried wirelessly to the ballast. 

15 MR. O'ROURKE: Okay. All right. 

16 Thank you. 

17 So in this slide we have two 

18 issues. The Department invites any comments 

19 in the proposed definitions of AC control 

20 signal, DC control signal, power line carrier 

21 control signal, and the wireless control 

22 signal. I know we kind of dealt with those as 

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1 we went through them. Any other questions? 

2 (No response.) 

3 And the Department also invites 

4 comments on the proposed methods for measuring 

5 this power assumed by the control signal 

6 system while the ballast is in the standby 

7 mode. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Any 

9 additional comments? 

10 MR. HAKKARAINEN: No. No further 

11 comment on these. 

12 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

13 MR. O'ROURKE: So next is the new 

14 test conditions for measuring the standby mode 

15 power. So currently the fluorescent ballast 

16 active mode is using ANSI C82.2-1984 test 

17 conditions. We are proposing in this standby 

18 mode to use the current version of that, 

19 C82.2-2002 edition. 

20 The Department is considering 

21 updating the rest of the ANSI Standards for 

22 active mode throughout this rulemaking that is 

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1 in progress, and will couple with it a test 

2 procedure for that active mode sometime later 

3 in 2009. So the Department invites comments 

4 on this method of handling the different test 

5 conditions associated with the existing and 

6 proposed new test procedure. 

7 (No response.) 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Nothing 

9 additional? 

10 (No response.) 

11 No? Okay. Thanks. 

12 MR. O'ROURKE: Okay. And last is 

13 the test procedure measurements and burden. 

14 The Department intends to study how best to 

15 use its discrete measurements of the main 

16 input power and control signal power in the 

17 separate rulemaking. Again, this is just 

18 setting up the method at which you'd evaluate 

19 it, but how it will be used will be determined 

20 later. And measurements will be used in the 

21 energy conservation standard analysis for the 

22 fluorescent lamp ballasts as well. 

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1 So the Department invites any 

2 comments on the approaches of combining the 

3 measurements of the main input power and 

4 control signal power into one metric. 

5 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Other than what 

6 I have already stated, no other comment on 

7 that. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do you have 

9 something? Please. Yes. 

10 MR. MEYER: Michael Meyer with 

11 Pacific Northwest National Lab. Can I ask you 

12 a question? With reporting the data -- 

13 MR. O'ROURKE: You're going to 

14 have to use one of these, Michael. 

15 MR. MEYER: Michael Meyer, Pacific 

16 Northwest National Laboratory. I just had a 

17 question. With reporting the data, you are 

18 taking the measurements in watt meter, so you 

19 are combining the power and watts. Do you 

20 also report the volt and amp data in the 

21 alternating current and the power line 

22 carrying data, since you are showing them in 

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1 the test setups? 

2 MR. O'ROURKE: At this time, we 

3 haven't gone through what is going to be 

4 required as compliance data. 

5 MR. MEYER: Okay. I was just 

6 curious. 

7 MR. O'ROURKE: So, again, those 

8 were put in there because they were standard 

9 measurements in the ANSI Standards, to show it 

10 in that way. So we wanted to show it in a 

11 similar manner. 

12 MR. MEYER: Thank you. I was just 

13 curious to know if they were required. 

14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Since you 

15 have raised it, I was wondering if the 

16 industry has a preference for how this gets 

17 expressed. 

18 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Not right now. 

19 If we do, we will provide written comment, but 

20 -- 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MR. HAKKARAINEN: -- we will talk 

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1 to everyone about that. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. O'ROURKE: Thank you, Michael. 

5 MS. PINTO: This is Francine 

6 again. So this particular issue of which kind 

7 of reporting it is, that will be the subject 

8 of a different rulemaking? 

9 MR. O'ROURKE: Correct. 

10 MS. PINTO: Okay. I just wanted 

11 to know. 

12 MR. O'ROURKE: So the burden of 

13 regulations. For the test procedure, it 

14 should measure power in an accurate and 

15 repeatable manner, and the test procedure 

16 should not unduly burden the manufacturers to 

17 conduct this test. 

18 The Department invites comments on 

19 the issues of burden, including whether there 

20 are ways that DOE could maintain accuracy and 

21 repeatability without reducing the burden -- 

22 while reducing. Sorry. While reducing the 

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1 burden. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: While 

3 reducing the burden, yes. So the questions 

4 are -- comments about whether this is an 

5 extraordinary burden, whether this is doable, 

6 what do you think? 

7 MR. HAKKARAINEN: This is Pekka 

8 Hakkarainen. Let me start, I don't know if 

9 this comment pertains to this meeting or 

10 perhaps some future meeting, but what I have 

11 in mind is that the ballasts that we are 

12 talking about here today, generally speaking, 

13 are dimming ballasts, controllable dimming 

14 ballasts, which on average consume less total 

15 energy than the ballasts that are by 

16 definition now not included in the standby 

17 mode power measurement or energy use 

18 measurement. 

19 So, then, the burden that exists 

20 is to qualify ballasts that in some sense 

21 inherently are more energy efficient already. 

22 And I am just bringing this up as to whether 

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1 this is actually necessary for us to do in the 

2 first place. 

3 The products that this rulemaking 

4 would regulate are generally accepted as more 

5 energy efficient. It is -- I am concerned 

6 that it would slow down the adoption of these 

7 more energy efficient products. 

8 MR. O'ROURKE: Just a followup 

9 comment, Pekka. This also was meant to imply 

10 that if new products do come to the market 

11 that are not dimming ballasts that utilize 

12 control signals, some type of control 

13 mechanism, that it would cover them as well. 

14 MR. HAKKARAINEN: I understand 

15 that. 

16 MR. O'ROURKE: Okay. 

17 MR. HAKKARAINEN: Currently, what 

18 is in the market there are to my knowledge no 

19 such products. But I'm not sure. 

20 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Diana? 

21 MS. BURK: Okay. DOE will decide 

22 whether to cover dimming ballasts in the 

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1 energy conservation standards rulemaking. 

2 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Speak up. 

3 MS. BURK: DOE will consider 

4 whether or not it wants to cover dimming 

5 ballasts in the energy conservation standards 

6 rulemaking. So DOE has not made a decision in 

7 this rulemaking, whether it will set standby 

8 mode energy conversation standards for dimming 

9 ballasts yet. So -- 

10 MR. HAKKARAINEN: So what you are 

11 saying is that I was anticipating something 

12 that hasn't actually happened yet. 

13 MS. BURK: Yes. 

14 (Laughter.) 

15 MS. PINTO: This is Francine Pinto 

16 from General Counsel. We are required to do 

17 this test procedure. 

18 MR. HAKKARAINEN: I understand. 

19 MS. PINTO: Yes. So we do have to 

20 comply with EISA. 

21 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MR. HAKKARAINEN: And I have no 

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1 argument. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 MR. O'ROURKE: Okay. And, lastly, 

4 I have Linda to go over how to submit 

5 comments. I mean, up to this point that is 

6 what we have for the test procedure for 

7 standby mode for fluorescent lamp ballasts. 

8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So maybe we 

9 will provide one more opportunity for anybody 

10 that wishes to make additional comments at 

11 this point before we talk about -- before 

12 Linda describes how to submit comments and 

13 that sort of thing. Any additional thoughts, 

14 comments, concerns? 

15 MR. HANSEN: This is Dain Hansen 

16 with NEMA. We discussed this with many of our 

17 lighting members from NEMA, and while some of 

18 them -- while Pekka was able to be here, some 

19 were not, and we'll formulate comments to -- 

20 write our written comments. We don't foresee 

21 too many major issues arising from that 

22 rulemaking. 

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1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 Thank you. That is helpful, and I appreciate 

3 you running interference and doing the 

4 collecting of those comments. The Department 

5 really appreciates that. 

6 MR. O'ROURKE: Thank you, Dain. 

7 MS. GRAVES: Thank you for coming 

8 to the meeting. We really do appreciate your 

9 input. The comments that were made at today's 

10 meeting will be captured on the transcript, 

11 which is the official record of this meeting. 

12 And so oral comments are also treated as 

13 official comments and part of the docket of 

14 this rulemaking. You may also make written 

15 comments until the comment period ends. The 

16 last day would be April 6th. 

17 And the procedures for providing 

18 comments are further detailed in the notice on 

19 page 3459. But, basically, you can submit 

20 comments by e-mail or by regular snail mail. 

21 And I would just -- but please be sure to 

22 identify your comment with either EERE-2008-

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1 BT-TP-0007 or by the regulatory identification 

2 number, which is 1904-AB77. 

3 I am just going to ask our Court 

4 Reporter to incorporate all of the information 

5 on slide number 33, so I don't just repeat all 

6 of these numbers to you. 

7 And I think that's it. Thank you 

8 very much for coming. 

9 MS. PINTO: Hey, Linda, I have a 

10 question. this is Francine again. If 

11 comments are submitted by e-mail, do they need 

12 to also send a signed original or not? 

13 MS. GRAVES: Yes. Yes, they do 

14 need to then send, as backup, a signed 

15 original document to the address given. And 

16 that is all detailed under the Submission of 

17 Comments section in the Federal Register 

18 notice. It is also explained on our webpage. 

19 And I would just draw your 

20 attention to the cover page of your 

21 presentation materials at the bottom contains 

22 the website address. And we will also be 

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1 posting the transcript of this meeting on that 

2 website. 

3 MR. HANSEN: This is Dain Hansen 

4 again. When do you expect -- anticipate the 

5 slides to be up on your website? 

6 MS. GRAVES: I would say pretty 

7 soon. It is not just us doing it. We have to 

8 go through our encoder, but they have been 

9 pretty responsive. I would anticipate a week 

10 or two -- 

11 MR. HANSEN: Okay. 

12 MS. GRAVES: -- they should be up. 

13 MR. HANSEN: Thank you. 

14 MS. GRAVES: Yes. Okay. Anything 

15 else? 

16 (No response.) 

17 Thank you very much for coming. 

18 (Whereupon, at 11:13 a.m., the 

19 proceedings in the foregoing matter were 

20 concluded.) 

21 

22

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A

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alternating 18:19

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amount 12:21 21:3

27:12

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32:9

anticipate 40:4,9

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32:14,21 33:2

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consumed 18:3

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16:16 23:6 24:21

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frequency 26:13,16

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EERE-2008-BT-TP-0007 COMMENT 24
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EERE-2008-BT-TP-0007 COMMENT 24
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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EERE-2008-BT-TP-0007 COMMENT 24
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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EERE-2008-BT-TP-0007 COMMENT 24
EERE-2008-BT-TP-0007 COMMENT 24