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• BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

### ----------------------------X In the Matter of TRANS NORTH AVIATION, LTD., Respondent, 

## ··o FAA-2013-0046- 1

vs. 

# RECEIVE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, 

### AUG 142013 

## HEARING DOCKE Complainant.**------------------~---------x** Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse Courtroom 498 517 East Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202 Tuesday, July 23, 2013 The above-captioned matter convened, pursuant to notice at 9:00 a.m.

BEFORE:

(202) 234-4433 The Honorable RICHARD C. GOODWIN Administrative Law Judge

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• 2 APPEARANCES: For the Complainant JEANETTE B. DAUBARAS, ESQ. Federal Aviation Administration 2300 East Devon Avenue Des Plaines, Illinois 60018 (847) 294-7313

For the Respondent

(202) 234-4433 CHARLES R. BARNETT, ESQ. PAUL R. BORTH, ESQ. Barnett 

### & Borth, LLC 800 Waukegan Road, Suite 200 Glenview, Illinois 60025 (847) 809-9520

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# • C 0 N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENT PAGE On Behalf of Complainant 8 On Behalf of Respondent
. 10

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS John Merrill 14 46 262 267 Sandra Boerman 60 137 178 190 196 197 Ron Schaberg 206 245 

# • E X H I B I T 

## s Complainant Mark Reed A-1 25 29 A-2 31 39 A-3 33 46 A-4 46 46 A-5 42 A-6 66 68 A-7 70 91 A-8 74 79 A-9 79 A-10 86 89 A-ll 90 A-12 105 113 A-13 113 A-14 118 A-15 120 A-16 180 182 A-17 182 186 

# • A-18 196 197
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• Respondent's: R-1 R-2 R-5 R-6 R-7 R-8 R-9 R-10 R-11

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217 256 256 256

49 140 166 216 233 259 235 260 236 260

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• 5
1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 (9:12a.m.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: This ·lS Trans 4 North Aviation, Ltd., FAA Case 2013-0046. 5 Counsel, will you identify yourself for the 6 record, please? 7 MS. DAUBARAS: Jeanette Daubaras, 8 Federal Aviation Administration for the 9 Agency. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Spell your last 11 name, please? 12 MS. DAUBARAS: D as in David, a-u13 b as in boy, a-r-a-s. Jeanette is my first 14 name with one n. 15 MR. BORTH: Good morning, Judge. 16 Paul Borth, B-o-r-t-h, on behalf of Trans 17 .North. 18 MR. BARNETT: Good morning, Your 19 Honor. Charles Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t, on 20 behalf of Trans North. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, a couple of 22 preliminary matters. There was a discussion
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• 6 1 off the record about what I call role in 2 witnesses. I don't have a facility for 3 sequestering, but they can sit out 1n the 4 hall, take their benches out in the hall. So, 5 my suggestion is when we sequester that we do 6 not or everything we do goes on the internet. 7 As to exhibits, I don't care how 8 you number them as long as you don't use the 9 same numbers. One of you pick numbers, one of 10 you pick letters. I don't care whether you 11 submit them as a package or individually, but 12 how I would take the exhibits and send them to 13 Ms. Matthews who will then check them down the 14 docketing, but remember that everything we do 15 goes on the record unless I**sea~** the record. 16 So, if you've got anything that's got any 17 personal identifying information and 18 incorporate information, anything that impacts 19 security, I prefer to seal that portion of the 20 record. 21 In today's age, nobody has any 22 business knowing some of the things that we

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• 7
1 do. Witnesses should give an innocuous 2 address or phone number. I'm not interested 3 in having accurate home addresses or accurate 4 cell phone numbers. I know as lawyers we're 5 used to doing that, but a government witness, 6 you shouldgive government address unless that 7 would create a problem. No cell phone numbers 8 or anything like that. 9 Even with sealed records I found 10 out recently that the Chief Judge has taken it 11 upon himself to circulate copies of my sealed 12 records within the office in violation of my 13 court order. So, we need to be extra careful 14 as to what we do and what we don't do. 15 I normally go until roughly 10:30 16 and take a break. Take a break for lunch 17 around noon for about an hour. And then, take 18 another break mid-afternoon. Normally, I 19 require the testimony be concluded at 4:30. 20 The reason is almost every courthouse I'm 1n, 21 the CSO is going overtime at 5:00 o'clock and 22 I know Ms. Daubaras doesn't have the money and
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• 8 1 I don't have the money to the overtime. So, 2 I'd want you out of the building by 5:00. 3 I've got the key to the courtroom. So, you 4 know, we can seal the courtroom. 5 I can't think of anything else 6 preliminary. Do you have an opening statement 7 for the government? 8 MR. DAUBARAS : Yes, Your Honor, 9 briefly. 10 This case ls, as far as I'm 11 concerned, rather simple with regard to the 12 facts of the case and we will be looking at 13 records that indicate that during a flight by 14 Trans North, there was a violation of a 15 regulation in that the rest time for the pilot 16 was not observed. It was violated and he went 17 into that rest period. 18 There are a number of other 19 aspects to this case that we probably will not 20 be getting into, but just with the rest period 21 violation because that was the only one that 22 carne down. I note that ln the Answer from
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• 1 Trans Air that they have admitted everything 2 in the complaint except for the last one that 3 was their number five. And, in addition to 4 that, they have asked for a defense which, an 5 affirmative defense, which, of course, they 6 have to prove. 7 So, we will go through each one of 8 the exhibits that are 1n the violation or the 9 enforcement package that we have, and we will 10 have testimony from two of our aviation safety 11 inspectors during that time period. And we 12 will prove that, in fact, that that rest time 13 was violated, possibly not just once, but 14 twice because the initial program that they 15 were on put them very close to the time period 16 when the ten hours of rest would be violated. 17 And then, in addition to that, 18 there was a delay and again the company chose 19 to go forward with the flight, which if it had 20 ended in the appropriate time would have been 21 approximately two to two and-a-half hours into 22 the rest period and that violation is what we

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• 10 1 are here for today. 2 Thank you, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. Do you 4 want to do openlng or reserve? 5 MR. BORTH: Pardon me? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to do 7 opening now or reserve? 8 MR. BORTH: I'd like to. I will 9 be brief, Judge. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 11 MR. BORTH: Good morning, Judge, 12 Counsel. Judge, this case is about 14 CFR, 13 Section 135.267(d), which states that each 14 assignment by a certificate holder under 15 paragraph (d) of this sectionmust provide for 16 at least ten consecutive hours of rest during 17 the 24 hour period that precedes the planned 18 completion time of the assignment. 19 The evidence, in this case, will 20 demonstrate that the planned completion of the 21 assignment that's the flights that were 22 subject to this case, the planned completion
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• 11 1 was within, would have allowed for the ten 2 hours of consecutive rest period and there was 3 an unforeseen, and truly unforeseeable, 4 circumstance being that this flight went down 5 to Florida to pick up a passenger who was a 6 critically ill 80 year old individual to be 7 flown back up to the Chicago metropolitan 8 area. 9 As it turns out, the flight, as 10 planned, would have concluded within the 24 11 hour time frame with 14 hours or less of duty 12 time and ten hours of rest prior to that duty 13 time, but for the fact that there was an 14 ambulance who was transporting this patient to 15 the flight in West Palm Beach that got lost 16 and delayed and caused a three hour delay that 17 was unforeseeable by the planning certificate 18 holder, Mr. Schaberg here. 19 And so, the evidence will 20 demonstrate that there was not any violation 21 of 14 CFR 135.267(d) and that in light of the 22 fact of the case law and the other provisions
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• 12 1 of Section 135.267 that allow for unforeseen 2 circumstances to allow for an extension of the 3 flight time and we will show that and, I 4 believe, at the end of this hearing, the Court 5 will find in favor of the Respondent. 6 Thank you. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Did you want to 8 rule, I use rule on witnesses. That's how we 9 learned it in Maryland, but it's 10 sequestration. 11 MS. DAUBARAS: I have two 12 witnesses and, yes, I would like to. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, 14 normally what happens is even with a 15 sequestration of witnesses, I allow each side 16 to keep a technical expert who may or may not 17 testify, you know, at the table. So, there's 18 the two Counsel at· the table, but if the 19 gentlemen to the right is your expert witness 20 but also in a sense typically allowed and the 21 same 1s true with the FAA. So, are your 22 witnesses sequestered?
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• 13
1 MS. DAUBARAS: No, I have both of 2 my witnesses here, but I would like to have 3 Sandra with me up here. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You can 5 call your first witness. 6 MS. DAUBARAS: All right, at this 7 time, I would like to call Mr. John Merrill. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, approach the 9 witness stand. Stand and raise your right 10 hand. 11 MR. BORTH: Your Honor, can I have 12 a break while we call him. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's fine. 14 Whereupon, 15 JOHN MERRILL, 16 called as a witness herein, having been first 17 duly sworn, was examined and testified as 18 follows: 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 20 State your name for the record and spell your 21 first and last name? 22 THE WITNESS: My name is John, JNEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 o-h-n, Merrill, M-e-r-r-i-1-1. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 5 Q Mr. Merrill, would you please g1ve 6 your business address? 7 A Sure, 4915 South Hollow Avenue, 8 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 53207. 9 Q Mr. Merrill, may I call you John? 10 A Yes. 11 Q, John, are you employed? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Q And by whom? 14 A By the Federal Aviation 15 Administration. 16 Q And how long have you been 17 employed by them? 18 A It will be six years this week. 19 Q And what is your present position 20 with the Agency? 21 A I'm a Aviation Safety Inspector, a 22 Principal Operations Inspector.
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• 15 1 Q Okay. Could you tell us briefly a 2 little bit about your experience prior to 3 com1ng with the Federal Aviation 4 Administration? 5 A Sure. For four years/ I was with 6 Skyway Airlines. It was a 121 operator and 7 through that I was a First Officer for two 8 years. Moved on 1 upgraded to a Captain on the 9 beach 1900. And then/ moved on to be a line 10 check airman at Skyway Airlines for the rest 11 of my career there. 12 Q Approximately/ how many total 13 hours of time do you have? 14 A Four thousand fifty/ 15 approximately. 16 Q And what certificates do you 17 presently hold? 18 A I presently hold a ATP which is an 19 airline transport pilot certificate. I hold 20 a flight instructor certificate that has the 21 ratings of single engine/ multi-engine and 22 CFII which is instrument instructor and I hold
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• 16 1 a second class medical with no restrictions. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Are you saying 3 Skyway or Sky West? 4 THE WITNESS: Skyway, Skyway 5 Airlines. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Pardon me. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Could you tell me what the highest 10 level of education you obtained is? 11 A I have a four year Bachelor of 12 Science Degree from St. Cloud State University 13 of which I graduated cum laude. 14 Q Thank you, and directing your 15 attention to approximately November 28th of 16 2011, would you tell me what if anything 17 happened on that evening? 18 A Yes, ma'am. Approximately 11:30 19 p.m. central time, I received a call from the 20 Chief Pilot, Kenneth Fox, and he notified me 21 of that there was an accident of their 22 Chieftain, Piper Chieftain, andbasicallyjust
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• 17 1 told me that we've had an accident. It's been 2 a fatal and wanted to give me a heads up that 3 something terribly went wrong. 4 Q Okay, and you said that that was 5 the Chief Pilot, Chief Pilot of what? 6 A Yes, of Trans North Aviation. 7 Q And what is your relationship to 8 Trans North Aviation? 9 A I'm their Principal Operations 10 Inspector. 11 Q Would you tell us briefly what a 12 Principal Operations Inspector does and who 13 they do it for? 14 A Sure. What a Principal Operators 15 Inspector does lS they have direct oversight 16 of the air operator. What they do lS they 17 work in conjunction with the company. As far 18 as regulations, they make sure they adhere to 19 135 regulations. They develop company 20 manuals, company training programs, OP specs, 21 make sure they adhere to their operations 22 specifications, andjust overall work with the
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• 18 1 operators. 2 Q And are you the Principal 3 Operations Inspector of Trans North? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Q And how long have you· been the 6 Principal Operations Inspector? 7 A I believe it was s1nce May of 8 2010. 9 Q Directing your attention back to 10 the next day after you received that telephone 11 call, did you find that the accident would 12 happen in your jurisdiction? 13 A No, it did not. 14 Q And could you explain jurisdiction 15 with regard to the Flight Standards District 16 Offices? 17 A Sure. Our jurisdiction ends at 18 the state line between Wisconsin and Illinois 19 and DuPage takes over at the Illinois State 20 border. 21 Q And where was this accident that 22 happened?
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1 A It was 1n Palwaukee whi6h 1s in 2 the Illinois District of DuPage. 3 Q Okay. What if anything happened 4 the next day? 5 A On the 28th, I received a phone 6 call at this time from Trans North Aviation 7 and this was approximately about noon that day 8 and they had requested to have a meeting with 9 myself. After they were done with the 10 investigators at DuPage at the Milwaukee FSDO, 11 and they had just wanted to speak to me about 12 the accident and I obliged and they came to my 13 office, roughly, about 4:30 central time 14 again. 15 Q In the afternoon? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Q Okay, and what happened during 18 that conversation? 19 A Well, I also had their former 20 Principal Operations Inspector, Cathy 21 Vuksanovic. She was present as well. She's 22 also done a lot of work with Trans North so I
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• 20 1 wanted her present as**well~** but what happened 2 during the conversation was they wanted to 3 explain certain things from the past and we 4 spoke about the accident itself. 5 Q And what did they tell you about 6 the accident? 7 MR. BORTH: Object to hearsay. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hearsay is 9 admissible in administrative hearings. So, 10 I'll allow limited inquiry on this, but your 11 objection goes to the weight and the Court 12 will g1ve it. 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, he's 14 testifying to a conversation that he had. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. The 16 Court's already ruled. You can answer the 17 question. 18 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 19 Q What did they talk to you about 20 with regard to the accident? 21 A With regards to the accident, I'm 22 going to start from the beginning. They
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• 21 1 spoke, they said that the pilot involved, Mr. 2 Didier, had the day before previously flown 3 the Cessna 340. 4 MR. BORTH: Judge, may I interject 5 an objection here. I don't know, when he says 6 they, I don't know who the individual is that 7 he's talking to. I would also stretch my 8 objection again to hearsay because this is 9 under the Pilots Bill of Rights, we're 10 entitled to the hearsay exception. It does 11 not apply here and we've got the federal rules 12 of evidence applied and he's talking about 13 hearsay, number one. Number two, he's talking 14 about they. I don't know who they is. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Rephrase your 16 question. What you're trying to do is lay a 17 foundation. I don't need a lot of detail in 18 laying the foundation to where you're going. 19 MS. DAUBARAS: All right. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q Who was speaking to you during 22 that time period?
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# .. 1 A Mr. Schaberg and Mr. Fox. 2 Q And the other person ln the room 3 was? 4 A Catherine Vuksanovic. 5 Q Okay, thank you. And at that time 6 when they were speaking to you about the 7 accident, who was it that was talking and what 8 did they discuss? 9 A Mr. Schaberg told me that the 340 10 was assigned to Mr. Didier to originally do 11 the trip that ended up happening to be the 12 Chieftain. On the way down, the Cessna 340 13 had an attitude indicator failure. It had to 14 divert to Crawfordsville, Indiana. At that 15 time, they had, I'm sorry, Mr. Schaberg 16 assigned Mr. Quentin Levitte, the Assistant 17 Chief Pilot at the time, to take the Chieftain 18 down to Crawsfordville, Indiana, with Mr. 19 Andrew Wolf and replace that flight because 20 the Cessna 340 was down for a mechanical to 21 continue on with that para-medical flight
. 22 Mr. Schaberg stated along with Mr.
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• 23 1 Fox that they were going to keep Quentin with 2 the Cessna 340 and put Mr. Didier on the 3 Chieftain flight with Mr. Wolf due to the fact 4 that the attitude indicator was still 5 inoperative and when the attitude indicator 6 was golng to be fixed that both Mr. Schaberg 7 and Ken Fox had a belief that Mr. Didier was 8 not golng to be able to handle the attitude 9 indicator if it was still inoperative, and 10 theybothbelieved quote unquote that he would 11 auger it into the ground if he were to fly it 12 on a test flight. 13 Q And then, what happened after 14 that? I'm sorry. 15 A Could you rephrase? 16 Q What flight did Mr. Didier finally 17 take? 18 A Mr. Didier was assigned the flight 19 of the Chieftain to go down with Mr. Wolf to 20 Palm Beach and continue the flight. 21 Q And who is Mr. Wolf? 22 A Mr. Wolf was a pilot they assigned
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• 24 1 just to build time in the multi-engine 2 aircraft. He was not, he did not take any 3 second in command check ride. He was not a 4 company pilot. He had no check ride, no 5 training, just was a commercial ratedpilot to 6 build their aircraft time in the multi-engine 7 aircraft. 8 Q And was there a part of the flight 9 that he was to perform? 10 A Mr. Wolf? 11 Q Yes. 12 A He was to perform repositioning 13 the aircraft down to Palm Beach. 14 Q And that was his assignment. How 15 many hours did he have in the aircraft, 16 approximately? Do you remember? 17 A I can't remember. 18 Q Okay. Did you make any type of a 19 memorandum of the conversation that you had 20 with these individuals, Mr. Schaberg and the 21 Chief Pilot? 22 A Yes, I made a inspector's report.
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1 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'd 2 like to have this marked as Exhibit A-1 for 3 identification? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Show it to Mr. 5 Barnett. 6 MS. DAUBARAS: Pardon? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Barnett, have 8 you seen it? 9 MS
. DAUBARAS : Just a moment. 10 Here's a copy of it. You previously received 11 it as part of the package. 12 MR. BORTH: Thank you. 13 MS
. DAUBARAS : And I'd 1ike to 14 have this marked for identification as Exhibit 15 A-1. Would that be acceptable, Your Honor? 16 (Agency's Exhibit ·No. A-1 was 17 marked for identification.) 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, that's fine. 19 Thanks. 20 MS. DAUBARAS: And may I approach 21 the witness? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 2 Q Would you take a moment and tell 3 me what that document is? 4 A This lS my inspector report. 5 Q Okay, and what lS it a report of? 6 A Detailing the conversation that I 7 had with Mr. Schaberg and Mr. Fox on the 28th. 8 Q Okay. I would like you to take a 9 moment and read through that and then I will 10 ask you some questions. Okay? 11 A Okay. 12 Q Does that accurately reflect the 13 conversation as you remember it? 14 A Definitely. 15 Q And was there any discussion with 16 regard to any, I'm sorry, strike that. 17 Did either Mr. Schaberg or Mr. 18 Levitte indicate that there were 19 communications between Mr. Schaberg and the 20 pilot of the aircraft of the flight to Palm 21 Beach? 22 A If you look on the second page, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 

### the second paragraph on the second page, Ron 2 

### explained how he exercised operational 3 

### control. He had a serles of back and forth 4 text messages between himself and Bill 5 discussing such things as field closest hotel 6 rooms upon arrival in Milwaukee and, most 7 importantly, Bill notifying Ron that he was 8 ready to depart for Palwaukee. 9 Q 

### And when you say depart for 10 Palwaukee, what part of the flight was that? 11 A 

### Could you rephrase that? 12 Q 

### Okay. There were several legs to 13 this flight. 14 A 

### Sure. 15 Q 

### There
.was, you know, stops for 16 

### fuel. What portion of the flight was the 17 departure for Palwaukee? 18 A 

### Oh, from Jessup 19 Q 

### Yes. 20 A 

### -- County ln Georgia to Palwaukee. 21 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, at this 22 

### time, I'd like to have this admitted into
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1 evidence as -- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have this 3 marked as Exhibit 11? 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Actually, it's A-1, 5 but was 11 in the inspection and the 6 investigation. So, it's 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I just want 8 to make sure that I don't miss it. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: All right. 10 MR. BORTH: No objection, Judge. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-1 for 12 identification is received into evidence as A13 1. Just so you know, what I do is I mark in 14 pencil, typically in the lower right hand 15 corner, the exhibit number with ID when I 16 admit, I line through ID and I put the date. 17 So,

-- 18 MR. BORTH: Great, thank you, 19 Judge. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 1 21 for identification is received into evidence 22 as Agency Exhibit 1 .
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1 (Agency Exhibit A-1 was received 2 into evidence.) 3 MS
. DAUBARAS : I'm sorry, Your 4 Honor. Are you saying A-1 or H-1? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-1. 6 MS. DAUBARAS: A-1, thank you. 7 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 8 Q Who was the operational controller 9 at that time? 10 A Mr. Schaberg. 11 Q And were you familiar with Mr. 12 Schaberg's certificate? 13 A Yes, ma'am, I was the PO on it. 14 Q Okay. And type of a certificate 15 did he hold? 16 A He held an on demand air carrier 17 certificate for 135. 18 Q Okay, and what does that mean? 19 What lS a 135 on demand? 20 A That he is able to carry for 21 interstate. So continuous 48 states, 22 Caribbean, and I believe Air Canada as well,
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1 that they're eligible on demand and they are 2 able to carry passengers, the air ambulance, 3 and they could carry cargo as well for both 4 visual flight rules, excuse me, and both 5 instrument flight rules as well. 6 Q Okay, and is there a document that 7 reflects the air carrier certificate? 8 A Yes, rna'am. There is an air 9 carrier certificate and also it is, I believe, 10 A001 in the OP specs that explains

-- 11 Q Operation specifications? 12 A Exactly. 13 Q Okay. What are operation 14 specifications? 15 A Operation specifications, 16 basically, tell what the operator is approved 17 for and what they're not approved for. 18 MS. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, I would 19 like to have this document, A-2, marked for 20 identification. 21 MR. BORTH: Could I see it, 22 Counsel?
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• 31 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, show a copy 2 to Counsel, would you please? 3 (Agency Exhibit A-2 was marked for 4 identification.) 5 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. May I 6 approach? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Could you tell me what that 10 document is? 11 A Yes. This is a copy of Trans 12 North Aviation's air carrier certificate. 13 Q And is that the entire certificate 14 or is it considered the entire certificate? 15 A Yes. This is the certificate 16 they're issued when they, the original 17 certificate. 18 Q Are there several parts to that 19 certificate besides that? 20 A No, this is their certificate that 21 they are issued. They hang it on their wall 22 at their
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### 1 Q 

### Okay, and what part do the 2 ?peration specifications play with regard to 3 that certificate? 4 A 

### The Ops, I keep calling them Ops, 5 but the operation specifications are issued 6 along with the air carrier's certificate when 7 they are certified. So, it is a package when 8 

### an operator is certified. They've been in 9 business for 48 years. Sorry, that's longer 10 than I have been alive, but it could have been 11 different back 48 years ago, but currently, 12 

### the way that it's done when an operator is 13 certified, they get not only just an air 14 carrier certificate, they both, they are 15 issued operation specifications and they have 16 manuals that are accepted and also approved. 17 Q 

### In the case of 135 operator and 18 

### the operations specifications, who has 19 operational control of the flights, the 20 carrier flights? 21 A 

### Sure. It should be listed in 22 

### operation specifications, A006 under
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• 33
1 management officials. And also, it should be 2 listed in their general operations manual and 3 that 1s A008 which is operational control. 4 A008 at the top of that page references inter5 manual or it could reference also A006 6 depending on how the Principal Operations 7 Inspector wrote it up where and when the 8 person has operational control. I would 9 reference the manual. 10 MS. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, I only 11 have one copy of this exhibit and I'd like to 12 have it marked as Agency Exhibit A-3 for 13 identification and I would like to also move 14 that A-2 be placed into evidence. 15 (Agency Exhibit A-3 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Did the Court 18 receive a copy of A-2? 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 20 MR. BORTH: We have no objection 21 to A-2, Judge
. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.
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• 34 1 MS. DAUBARAS: I would the record 2 to reflect that I'm going to show the witness 3 if I may approach a document. 4 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 5 Q Could you tell me that document 6 is? 7 A Yes. This is A006 what I just was 8 speaking of that it's management personnel. 9 It lists who the chief pilot is, the Director 10 of Maintenance and the Director of Operations 11 and it lists their names along with the 12 company equivalent position title. 13 Q And was that the operation 14 specifications that were in place on the date 15 of 'the accident? 16 A Yes, rna'am. 17 Q Are those operation specifications 18 still the same? 19 A No, rna'am. 20 Q Okay. Could you tell me about 21 those operation specifications? Who is named 22 as the Chief Pilot?
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1 A Chief Pilot on these operation 2 specifications? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Kenneth or Ken Fox. 5 Q All right, and could you tell me 6 who had operational control? 7 A Ronald Schaberg and Ken Fox and 8 James Keenan had it on the maintenance end of 9 things. 10 Q Okay, and could you tell me what 11 responsibilities go along with those 12 operational control? If you could read from 13 that, I believe it has something about 14 operational control, does it not? 15 A You'll have to go, well, all 16 management personnel listed in the operation 17 specifications must be direct employees of the 18 certificate holder, but you'll have to go to 19 A008 in order to see the actual definition. 20 Q Is that in there? 21 A Let me see. You've got them all 22 bunched together.
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• 36 1 Q Okay. 2 A Let's see here. 3 Q It's a group exhibit. 4 A A008 is operational control and it 5 explains, inessence, what operational control 6 lS and what has to be fulfilled to have 7 operational control. 8 Q Would you read that? 9 A Sure. It's pretty lengthy, but-- 10 Q Okay, if you want to summarlze, 11 it's okay
. 12 A Yes. No, the maln part lS, stand 13 by, if you go to A008-3, the third page there, 14 the bottom paragraph is number six. 15 Managementpersonnel andpersons authorizedto 16 exercise operational control. (A) Prior to 17 conducting a part 135 flight or series of 18 flights, at least one management personnel 19 listed ln operation specifications A006, 20 management personnel of these OP specs or 21 management person designee, who is a direct 22 employee of the certificate holder other than
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1 a pilot assigned to the specific flight or 2 series of flight, must determine or have 3 sufficient knowledge of the following. 4 One, whether each assigned crew 5 member is qualified and eligible to serve as 6 a required crew member in the aircraft and 7 type of operation to which the crew member is 8 assigned, and whether the aircraft assigned 9 for the use associated in operation 10 specifications (d)85. (d)85 1s aircraft 11 listings and is air worthy of the certificate 12 holders FAA approved maintenance, inspection 13 and a1r worthiness program as appropriate 14 prior to conducting 135 flight or series of 15 flights. 16 At least the pilot assigned in 17 accordance with sub paragraph (d)6AI above 18 must determine to have sufficient knowledge of 19 the following. Whether a part 135 flight or 20 series of flights can be initiated, conducted 21 or terminated safely in accordance with the 22 authorization, limitations and procedures
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• 38 1 approvedinthe certificateholder/s operation 2 specifications r general operations manual/ or 3 sub paragraph (a) above and the appropriate 4 regulations. 5 Notwithstanding the requirements 6 of sub paragraph (d)6a above 1 this 7 determinationnow as described in subparagraph 8 (d)6BI above made be made for the certificate 9 holder by pilots and/or flight crew members 10 assigned to the flight or series of flights in 11 accordance with policies/ procedures and 12 standards prescribed by the certificate 13 holder. Such non-management persons shall 14 meet the requirements of Section 11969 under 15 names 1 titles andduties 1 responsibilities and 16 duties shall be specified 1n the general 17 operations manual. They 1re described in 18 subparagraph (a) above. And then/ the last 19 paragraph refers to a single pilot operator. 20 Q Thank you. Would those 21 operational controls with the responsibility 22 of whoever the person 1n the company is
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• 39 1 responsible for operational control, is that 2 correct? 3 A What's that? One more time. 4 Q The person responsible for 5 operational control would have to comply with 6 those things that have to be done in order to 7 have a flight go out? 8 A Definitely. 9 . MR. BORTH: Object to relevance
. 10 This is not about any violation of the Ops 11 facts
. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. Are 13 you finished with Agency 3 because the Court 14 shouldhave that? Agency 2 for identification 15 1s received into evidence as Agency 2. 16 (Agency Exhibit No. 2 was received 17 into evidence.) 18 MS. DAUBARAS: At this time, we'd 19 like to ask that Agency 3, A-3 be admitted I 20 into evidence. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 22 MR. BORTH: No objection.
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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-4? 2 MS. DAUBARAS: A-4, I'm sorry. Do 3 you want to admit A-3, too? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I haven't 5 seen it yet. The Court hasn't seen it. 6 MS. DAUBARAS: This is A-4. A-3 7 was just 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-2 1s the air 9 carrier certificate, Trans North Aviation. I 10 never saw a copy of A-3. 11 MS. DAUBARAS: Exhibit A-3 is part 12 of the OP specs. 13 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 14 Q Did you investigate this 15 particular accident? 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q And the reason for that was? 18 A It was out of my jurisdiction. 19 Q Okay. Do you know who did 20 investigate it? 21 A No, I do not. 22 Q Do you inspect the companies that
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• 41
1 you are responsible for as the Principal 2 Operations Inspector? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And as part of that inspection, do 5 you do some type of a report, surveillance 6 report? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And did you do one of those 9 reports for Trans North? 10 A Yes. 11 MS. DAUBARAS: I'd like to have 12 this marked. 13 MR. BORTH: Counsel, can I take a 14 look at that, please? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have a copy 16 for me, Counsel? 17 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, we do. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which one is this? 19 Is this A-5? 20 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. At this time, 21 I would like to have this document marked as 22 Agency Exhibit A-5 for identification.
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• 42 1 (Agency Exhibit A-5 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 4 Q For the record, I'm handing the 5 witness a document. Can you tell me what that 6 document is? 7 A Yes. Every year with our 8 operators as part of our performance plan, we 9 need to fill out a priority index and we need 10 to rate each of our operators based on what 11 ' I our upcomlng performance plan would be as far 12 as how many surveillance activities we're 13 planning on doing on the operator. 14 Q Okay, and is that the report that 15 you did for Trans North? 16 A Yes, ma'am. This was December 2nd 17 of 2011. 18 Q Okay, and what was the result of 19 that report? 20 MR. BORTH: Judge, at this time, I 21 would object to the use of this document. It 22 doesn't have any relevance to the violation
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• 43 1 alleged in the administrator's complaint. 2 There's nothing inhere respecting the planned 3 completion time of· flights or the hours of I 4 rest or anything of that nature. This lS 5 completelyirrelevant totheseproceedings and 6 I don't think that this document or any 7 testimony about this document would be 8 relevant. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, I'm looking at 10 135 surveillance prior index. What's the 11 relevance, Counsel? 12 MS. DAUBARAS: Well, it says that 13 we are going to show regarding this company 14 that they did not always put safety first with 15 regard to what was going on in the company, 16 and in order to do that I would like this 17 surveillance to be put into evidence. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 19 sustain the objection. 20 MR. BORTH: Thank you, Judge. 21 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay, Your Honor, 22 I'd like to have it admitted into evidence or NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 44 1 be denied. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's, you 3 know, it's part of the administrative record, 4 but you offered for evidence. The first 5 objection was to the testimony. She's not 6 proffering Exhibit 5 for identification. 7 MR. BORTH: My other objection was 8 also to the admission of this evidence. I 9 don't think it's, agaln, the basis being 10 relevance to the allegations in the complaint. 11 It's not a 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 13 sustain at this time. I mean, if it later 14 comes around I'll review. 15 MS
. DAUBARAS : All right, Your 16 Honor. Your Honor, I would like to make an 17 offer of proof that it does indicate the 18 number of violations that they've had in the 19 past three years. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 21 MS. DAUBARAS: And I believe that 22 the .violations are important with regard to
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• 45
1 way that they operate. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: What you're g1v1ng 3 me 1s another copy of Exhibit A-5. 4 MS. DAUBARAS: I'm sorry. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which 1s okay. 6 You gave me the original. 7 MS
. DAUBARAS : All right, Your 8 Honor, at this time, I have no further 9 questions for this individual. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, just to make 11 sure the Court has everything. The Court has 12 admitted A-1 for identification which is the 13 investigative report. The Agency offered the 14 air carrier's certificate dated 11-5-1989, A15 2, and the Court has admitted that. A-3 1s 16 the OP specs and it's pages A006-1 and 2 and 17 A007-1. That was moved in evidence with no 18 objection and A-3 for identification was 19 received into evidence. A-4, the OP specs, 20 pages A008-1 through 5, inclusive, dated 21 September 23, 2010. Being no objection, A-4 22 for identification is received into evidence
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• 46 1 as Agency 4 and A-5 was not admitted because 2 of objection. 3 (Agency Exhibits A-3 and A-4 were 4 marked for identification and 5 received into evidence.) 6 MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just charge us for 8 housekeeping done here. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: I understand. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay 1 Counsel? 11 MR. BORTH: Thank you 1 Judge. Do 12 you mind if I move this over here? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: As long as the 14 Court Reporter doesn 1 t mind. 15 MR. BORTH: I just prefer to stand 16 and I don 1t want to be on top of the witness. 17 May I inquire/ Judge? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 19 MR. BORTH: Thank you. 20 CROSS EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. BORTH: 22 Q Mr. Merrill 1 you indicated a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 moment ago that you didn't perform any 2 investigation about this accident. Is that 3 true? 4 A No, I did not. 5 Q So, your investigator or inspector 6 report, what was the purpose of creating the 7 inspector's report? 8 A Just to document the conversation 9 that I had with Mr. Schaberg and Mr. Fox. 10 Q Okay, and 1n that inspector's 11 report, you set forth the, I guess, the 12 beginnings of what occurred 1n this flight 13 with respect to the flight down, the initial 14 flight down to Florida and the mechanical 15 issues that were involved? 16 A Could you come again? 17 Q Yes. You documented the flight 18 down to Florida and how they had to stop in 19 Crawfordsville because of the attitude 20 indicator problem? 21 A I documented everything of which 22 was said to me. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 Q Okay, and at any time, did you 2 discuss with Mr. Schaberg his scheduling of 3 the flights? 4 A I would have to look over my 5 report again. It's been so long. 6 Q Go ahead. Okay. Would you take a 7 look at Exhibit A-1? 8 A I don't have it anymore. 9 MR. BORTH: I'm sorry. May I 10 approach, Judge? 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. You 13 asked, you asked about scheduling? 14 BY MR. BORTH: 15 Q Yes. 16 A Okay. No, we did not discuss 17 scheduling at all. 18 Q And at the time when you did this, 19 created this report, was that on November 29th 20 of 2011? 21 A It was as soon as they left the 22 building. So, the accident was on, excuse me, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 49 1 the 28th and we had the discussion on the 2 29th. Yes. 3 Q And you had no discussion with Mr. 4 Schaberg about the scheduling of the flights? 5 A Not on that day. 6 Q Did you play any part in creating 7 the allegations ln the administrator's 8 complaint against Mr. Schaberg in this case? 9 A Could you rephrase? 10 Q Yes. Did you play any role in 11 creating the allegations in the 12 administrator's complaint respecting Section 13 135.267? 14 A No. 15 Q Are you familiar with that? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. BORTH: May I approach, Judge? 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 19 MR. BORTH: We'll call this R-5, 20 Judge. Sorry, we're moving out of order. R-5 21 for Respondent. 22 (Respondent's Exhibit R-5 was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 marked for identification.) 2 MS. DAUBARAS: Are you noting your 3 exhibits out of order? 4 MR. BORTH: Yes. May I approach, 5 Judge? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 7 BY MR. BORTH: 8 Q I'm showing you a copy of what's 9 beenmarked as Exhibit R-5 for identification. 10 I've highlighted certainportions of this, but 11 this is 14 CFR Section 135.267. Is that 12 correct? 13 A Yes, s1r. 14 Q Have you seen this before? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Is this part of your as a 17 Principal Ops Inspector is this something that 18 you reviewed periodically in working with 19 Trans North? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And do you do any auditing of 22 their books to make sure that they comply with
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• 51 1 Section 135.267? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And have you performed any of 4 those audits? 5 A Yes. It's part of the 6 surveillance program. 7 Q In this case, after this 8 particular incident, did you audit the flight 9 plan that was conducted or created by Mr. 10 Schaberg? 11 A Through this particular event? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No, I did not because I was not 14 investigating this accident. 15 Q Okay, and according to, if you 16 look down to (d), Section 135.267(d) 17 A Sure. 18 Q It reads that each assignment 19 under paragraph (d) of this section must 20 provide for at least ten consecutive hours of 21 rest during the 24 hour period that precedes 22 the planned completion time of the assignment.
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1 Is that correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'm 4 golng to object at this point. The document 5 that you're reading from is the 03 edition. 6 Do you have a more up to date edition of this? 7 MR. BORTH: I don't find, I think 8 this is as current as there is. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't you two 10 compare copies? 11 MS. DAUBARAS: Well, I have it, 12 just a minute. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: What's the section 14 that you're

-- 15 MR. BORTH: Section 135.267. 16 MS. DAUBARAS: Two six seven (d). 17 MR. BORTH: This language is the 18 same language that's located in the complaint 19 by the administrator. 20 MS. DAUBARAS: It's the same? 21 MR. BORTH: Yes, it is the same 22 MS
. DAUBARAS : Well, okay, if
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• 53
1 you're just talking about 267(d) and you're 2 uslng the same language that's ln the 3 complaint, I have no objection. I don't know 4 whether or not the rest of it has changed and 5 that was my question because this is in 2003 6 and I know there have been changes since then. 7 MR. BORTH: No, I understand. 8 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 9 BY MR. BORTH: 10 Q Is it your understanding, Mr. 11 Merrill, that this 135.267(d) is the section 12 of the CFR that was allegedly violated by Mr. 13 Schaberg at Trans North Aviation? 14 A Again, I did not investigate this. 15 Q But you're familiar with 16 135.267(d), right? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Okay, and according to this, under 19 (d), what's important is whether or not the 20 planned completion at the time of the 21 assignment would allow for ten consecutive 22 hours of rest for the pilot. Is that correct?
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• 54 1 A Well, it's just as the regulation 2 reads. At least ten consecutive hours of rest 3 during the 24 hour period that precedes the 4 planned completion time of the assignment. 5 Q Okay. So, what's important under 6 this regulation is the ten hours of rest time 7 that precedes the time of the assignment, 8 correct? 9 A Again, as the regulation reads. 10 Q But 1s that true? 11 A As the regulation reads at the 12 time of the assignment. 13 Q Okay, and do you know what the 14 time of the assignment was? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q All right, but you would agree in 17 any event that Mr. Schaberg had a flight plan 18 that set forth a planned completion time that 19 allowed for ten consecutive hours of rest 1n 20 the preceding 24 hour period that he would be 21 in compliance with 14 CFR Section 135.267, 22 correct?
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• 55 1 A I would have to see that flight 2 plan. 3 Q In the event that he did that, he 4 would be in compliance? 5 A I would need more information. 6 Q Okay, but you never investigated 7 that, right? 8 A I never investigated it, no. No 9 information was provided to me after this 10 accident. 11 Q Okay, and I'm just saying that, 12 hypothetically, in the event that Mr. Schaberg 13 created a flight plan for Mr. Didier and Mr. 14 Wolf that would allow for ten consecutive 15 hours of rest during the 24 hour period that 16 preceded the planned completion of the flight 17 that he would be in compliance with this rule, 18 correct? 19 A As, if he had a flight plan that, 20 with the 24 hour clock look back

-- 21 Q Right. 22 A You're saying you had ten hours
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• 56
1 built ln there within that 24 hour look back 2 of rest, then yes. 3 Q And when you were sitting down 4 with Mr. Schaberg, Mr. Fox, I guess those were 5 the two main people who were in this meeting. 6 Is that right? 7 A Catherine Vuksanovic. 8 Q Okay. I mean, in terms of Trans 9 North's people? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q You never thought to question 12 whether or not the flight plan was ln 13 compliance with Section 135.267? 14 A I wasn't investigating this 15 accident. I didn't want to get in the middle 16 of it. 17 MR. BORTH: Okay, thank you. I 18 think that's all I have. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 20 MS. DAUBARAS: I have nothing. I 21 do have a copy of the most recent one and they 22 appear to be the same. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 MR. BORTH: Judge, we would move 2 to admit Respondent's Exhibit 5, please. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just so that you 4 know when we research this and render an 5 opinion, we always look at the law applicable 6 at the time of the incident. As the FAA 7 knows, it's a moving target,. 8 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, I 'm making 10 sure we get the proper one. We get it about 11 99.95 percent. 12 MR. BORTH: Thank you, Judge. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection to 14 the admission of Respondent's 5 for 15 identification? 16 MS. DAUBARAS: No, but I do have a 17 more recent one, but that's all right. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, is that the 19 rank? 20 MS. DAUBARAS: It appears to read 21 the same. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.
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1 Respondent's 5 will be received into evidence 2 with the caveat that the Court will insure 3 that we're recording it proper. 4 (Respondent's Exhibit R-5 was 5 received into evidence.) 6 MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect, Counsel? 8 MS. DAUBARAS: No redirect, Your 9 Honor. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 11 for this witness? 12 MS. DAUBARAS: No. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: The witness is 14 excused, I'm going to remind you you're not to 15 discuss your testimony with anyone until the 16 conclusion of the hearing. It's up to Counsel 17 whether you need to stay, but you're excused 18 from the courthouse. 19 MS. DAUBARAS: I believe he can 20 stay. I don't think I'11 need him for 21 rebuttal
. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Call your
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• 59 1 next witness. You're excused. 2 (Witness excused.) 3 MS. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, may we 4 have just a quick break? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. It's 10:15. 6 Let's take a ten ·minute break and we'll be 7 back at -- 8 MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go off the record. 10 (Off the record.) 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, raise your 12 right hand. 13 Whereupon, 14 SANDRA BOERMAN, 15 called as a witness herein, having been first 16 duly sworn, was examined and testified as 17 follows: 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated 19 and state your full name for the record and 20 spell your first**and~last** name? 21 THE WITNESS: Sandra Marie 22 Boerman, B as in boy, o-e-r-m-a-n. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MS_ DAUBARAS: 4 Q Sandra, would you give your 5 business address, please? 6 A 31W775 North Avenue, West Chicago, 7 Illinois, 60185. 8 Q Ms. Boerman, are you employed? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And by whom? 11 A The Federal Aviation 12 Administration. 13 Q And how long have you been 14 employed by them? 15 A Over 11 years. 16 Q What is your present position with 17 the Agency? 18 A A v i a t i o n S a f e t y 19 Inspector/Principal Operations Inspector. 20 Q And how long have you been a 21 Principal Operations Inspector? 22 A Almost ten years. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 Q And could you give us a brief 2 description of your experienceprior to coming 3 with the Federal Aviation Administration? 4 A Prior to coming to the FAA, I 5 worked for a Part 121 Regional Air Carrier as 6 a Captain on two aircraft. Prior to that I 7 was Assistant Chief Pilot for the 141 School. 8 I was a flight instructor for the 141 School 9 and then I was a flight instructor. 10 Q And what is the highest level of 11 education that you attained? 12 A I have a double Bachelor's Degree. 13 One 1n Airway Science, Aircraft Systems 14 Management andone inAviationAdministration. 15 Q Thank you. Directing your 16 attention to approximately November 28, 2011, 17 could you tell me what, if anything, happened 18 on that day? 19 A The, our office was notified the 20 evening prior of a accident at Palwaukee 21 Airport in Wheeling, Illinois. 22 Q And how was your office notified,
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1 

### do you know? 2 A 

### Yes. We have inspectors that are 3 on accident standby via a pager or a cell 4 phone and the original operations control 5 center would contact that inspector who's on 6 duty whenever there's an incident or.accident 7 that happens. So, we are notified through a 8 

### ROCC they call it, Regional Operation Control 9 Center. 10 Q 

### Okay, and directing your attention 11 to the next date, could you tell me what 12 happened then? 13 A 

### Well, the evening of the 27th, I 14 had a phone call from my front line Manager 15 telling me that I would be working an accident 16 the next day to prepare for that. So, I was, 17 we just dress different stuff to prepare for 18 

### the accident. So, I came into work and 19 prepared the vehicle for everything we would 20 need to go on the accident. And then, myself 21 and my fellow inspectors headed out to the 22 

### site
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1 Q And were you the primary 2 investigator of this accident? 3 A The NTSB was in charge of the site 4 and at that time, I wasn't the pr1mary 5 investigator at the time. Al Patnaud, our 6 maintenance guy, because he was out the night 7 before I was at that time. 8 Q Okay, and were you then assigned? 9 A I was never assigned the primary 10 investigator for the accident. 11 Q Okay. So, what was your role in 12 investigating this accident? 13 A To assist the inspector in charge 14 with the accident. 15 Q Okay. Who was the inspector 1n 16 charge for the accident? 17 A Initially, it was Al, InspectorAl 18 Patnaud. Then we had notification that 19 Washington was sending an inspector out from 20 their accident office, accident investigation 21 office. And once he got there, he was 1n 22 charge of the accident investigation.
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1 Q And was he an FAA employee? 2 A I assume so. He works for the 3 accident investigation office. I don't know. 4 I would assume, yes. 5 Q In other words, he came from the 6 Federal AviationAdministration in Washington? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Thank you, and what did you do to 9 begin your investigation? 10 A On the scene? 11 Q Yes. What actions did you take? 12 A When we're on scene we work 13 together to evaluate the site and look for any 14 documentations and look at the wreckage and 15 try, you know, to see what happened, and then 16 we follow up with interviews. 17 Q And when you went to the site, 18 what did you find? Was the aircraft still 19 there? 20 A Yes. We found the aircraft 21 wreckage and numerous documents and papers 22 were all on site.
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• 65 1 Q And what were you investigating 2 for? 3 A Our role as FAA inspectors is to 4 initially we investigate for the nine 5 responsibilities that the FAA is responsible 6 for. 7 Q And what are those if you remember 8 them all? 9 A They're on the 8020-23. 10 Q Okay. Basically, are you looking 11 for if there were any violations of the 12 regulations? 13 A Yes. If there was a1r traffic 14 involved, if there was violation of 15 regulations, if there was airman competency 16 involved, if there's nine. I don't have them 17 memorized. They're on the sheet. And once, 18 if we have, if we see any of those are 19 involved, we kind of do parallel 20 investigations where the Washington office 21 will investigate the accident, but those are 22 not responsibilities and then my job was to do
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1 the enforcement investigation as a separate 2 investigation. 3 Q Okay, and the two investigations 4 are kept separately. Is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. So, how long did you 7 spend at the accident site when you were 8 there? 9 A Hours. 10 Q And was there an accident incident 11 report that was prepared? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Who prepared that report? 14 A The accident, the inspector 1n 15 charge out of Washington prepared the 8020-23 16 form. 17 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'd 18 like to have this document marked for 19 identification. I believe it's A-6. 20 (Agency Exhibit No. A-6 was marked 21 for identification.) 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### 1 MR. BORTH: Could I see it 1 

### 2 Counsel? 3 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Sure/ one moment/ 4 please. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. I 1

### mgoing to 6 let you keep a copy of it and let the Court 7 keep the original. 8 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. May I 9 approach the witness 1 

### Your Honor? 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 11 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 12 Q 

### Let the record reflect that I 1

### m 13 

### showing the witness a document. Could you 14 identify what that document is? 15 A This lS 

### our FAA Accident Incident 16 Report/ FAA Form 8020-23. 17 Q And who prepared that form? 18 A Inspector Robert P. Hendrickson. 19 Q 

### And did you review that form? 20 A Yes. 21 Q 

### And what did you find? 22 A 

### I found that he concluded with our NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 FAA nine responsibilities that area four, 2 airman competency was involved and area nine, 3 FAA violation was involved. 4 Q And when you say involved, what 5 does that mean? 6 A That the investigation led that, 7 yes, there was violations of the regulations 8 and that airman competency contributed to the 9 accident. 10 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'd 11 like to move that Agency Exhibit A-6 be 12 admitted into evidence. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 14 MR. BORTH: No objection, Judge. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-6 for 16 identification is received in evidence as A-6. 17 (Agency Exhibit A-6 was received 18 into evidence.) 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q Do you remember what your next 22 action was when you began your investigation?
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1 A We interviewed. 2 Q And who did you interview if you 3 remember? 4 A I spoke to Mr. Schaberg and Mr. 5 Wolf on site. And then, we, obviously, we 6 interviewed Mr. Wolf, Mr. Blodgett because 7 they were the survivors of the accident. 8 Q And did you memorialize those 9 interviews? 10 A We record them on records of 11 telephone conversation forms
. 12 Q Did you interview Mr. Schaberg 1n 13 person? 14 A Yes, on the scene, I talked to 15 him. 16 Q Okay. 17 MS
. DAUBARAS : If I could just 18 have a moment, Your Honor? 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q Okay. You said you interviewed 22 Mr. Maynard Blodgett. Who was Mr. Blodgett?
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1 A He was the paramedic that was on 2 the flight. 3 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'd 4 like to have this document marked for 5 identification as Agency A-7 for 6 identification. May I approach? 7 (Agency Exhibit A-7 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 10 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 11 Q Let the record reflect I'm showing 12 the witness a document that speaks of a 13 conference with Mr. Maynard Blodgett. Would 14 you tell me what this is and how you obtained 15 it? 16 A This is our record of telephone 17 conversation form and I obtained it by a phone 18 conversation with Mr. Blodgett. And then, 19 right after the conversation, I record it on 20 this form. 21 Q Okay, and what did you learn from 22 Mr. Blodgett?
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1 A Mr. Blodgett, he discussed what he 2 recalled what happened on the day of the 3 accident. 4 MR. BORTH: I'll object to 5 hearsay. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled at this 7 point. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Okay. Did you know, at that 10 point, how many people were on board the 11 aircraft? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And how many people were on board 14 the aircraft? 15 A There was Mr. Bill Didier, Mr. 16 Andrew Wolf, Mr. Blodgett, and then the 17 patient's wife and the patient. 18 Q And what was Mr. Blodgett's role 19 again? 20 A He was the paramedic assigned to 21 the flight. 22 Q All right, and what did he explain
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1 to you? 2 MR. BORTH: Objection. It calls 3 for hearsay. 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Ysmr Honor, Federal 5 Rules of Evidence are just

-- 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand that, 7 but hearsay is admissible and Mr.

-- agreed. 8 The question here is whether he rewrote the 9 number of hours so I'm not sure if we're not 10 getting too far afield. I'll allow a limited 11 inquiry, but I don't want to get too far 12 afield. So, objection is overruled at this 13 point. 14 MR. BORTH: Thank you, Judge. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: It also goes to 16 weight, Ms. Daubaras, always goes to weight. 17 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 18 Q Mr. Blodgett was on the aircraft 19 at the time of the accident, was he not? 20 A Correct. 21 Q All right, and what did he 22 indicate to you happened during the flight?
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• 1 A He described the flight from 2 Crawfordsville. He described the four legs of 3 the flight. He described that they received 4 fuel 1n Jessup prior to departing for the 5 flight. He described that there was 6 turbulence and bad air in his terms. So, he 7 knows that they descended down and the other 8 thing he described was who was at the controls 9 of the flight. 10 Q And who was at the controls? 11 A Mr. Blodgett stated Mr. Didier 12 was, had flown all four flights that day. 13 Q Okay. When you say all four 14 flights that day, what were those flights? 15 A Crawfordsville to Perry to West 16 Palm to Jessup to Palwaukee. 17 Q And is that what the records 18 reflected that Mr. Didier was the pilot for 19 those flights? 20 A 21 Q 22 A Some records. And what records if you recall? The load manifest found on the
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1 scene indicate who was designated as the pilot 2 in command. 3 Q I would 1ike to go back now to 4 those flights that you just described. Did 5 you have an opportunity to review documents 6 about those flights? 7 A Yes. The load manifest on scene 8 listed pilot commands which conflicted with 9 the FAA's flight plans that were filed with 10 the FAA listed a different PIC on all four 11 flights
. 12 Q All right, and were those load 13 manifests made part of your investigation? 14 A Yes. 15 MS. DAUBARAS: All right, and let 16 the record reflect the Agency is asking that 17 a document be marked for identification as 18 Agency Exhibit A-8. 19 (Agency Exhibit A-8 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 22 Q Let the record reflect that I'm
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1 showing the witness a document. 2 MR. BORTH: Did you say this is 3 eight, A-8? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 MS. DAUBARAS: A-8. 6 MR. BORTH: Thank you. 7 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 8 Q Could you tell me how you obtained 9 that document? 10 A Both these documents were found on 11 scene in the wreckage. 12 Q All right, and what is that 13 document referring to? 14 A This document 1s the load manifest 15 form. 16 Q And how did you obtain a copy of 17 that? 18 A On scene, we photographed the 19 paper. 20 Q All right, and is that an accurate 21 depiction of the photograph that was taken? 22 A Yes.
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1 Q And whose load lS that in the 2 picture? 3 A They're mine. 4 Q So, you were standing and holding 5 that particular load manifest? 6 A Yes. 7 Q All right, and what does that load 8 manifest reflect? 9 MR. BORTH: Judge, I'll object to 10 relevance. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: This reflects the 13 date of the flight, the N number of the 14 flight, the PIC, SIC and crew members, the 15 hobs in and out times, the duty off and duty 16 on times, the block times, landings, IFR, and 17 then it goes down to do the where they were 18 from to the block out. It pretty much logs 19 the flights, the paths that are required to do 20 this as the multi-engine aircraft under 135. 21 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 22 Q And could you tell me who was the
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1 pilot of those flights? 2 A The pilot for 3 Q For each leg, if you could just 4 describe each leg and who was the pilot? 5 A Okay. Well, the first load 6 manifest said that the PIC was listed as Able 7 with crew as Blodgett and Didier and it 8 reflects this was Part 91 and there was no 9 signature. And the second load manifest 10 reflects that Didier was the PIC with Blodgett 11 and Wolf as other crew members and that 1s 12 signed by Didier. 13 Q Okay, and you said Part 91, what 14 does that refer to? 15 A The regulations the aircraft was 16 operating under. 17 Q So, the first leg of the flight 18 was supposed to be under Part 91? 19 A Correct, and the second leg 1s 20 under Part 91. 21 Q And what aircraft is that flight 22 in, the first one?
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1 A November 59773. 2 Q And was that the Chieftain? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And what else is reflected in that 5 load manifest? 6 A The, where they departed from, 7 where they went to, and the times that they 8 started their day, ended their duty for that 9 trip for that leg, and then the block which 10 would be the wheels up and the wheels down 11 time
. 12 Q Did you take that into 13 consideration in your investigation? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And what did you do to determine 16 whether or not a violation had occurred? 17 A I used three load manifests, the 18 IFR flight plans that were filed for the 19 flights, and Flight Aware's tracking of the 20 aircraft and I made a chart to easier explain 21 it. 22 MS
. DAUBARAS : I would like to
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1 have Agency A-9 admitted into evidence. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Hold on second. 3 Eight is the manifest? 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Eight is the 5 manifest. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Nine we haven't 7 gotten yet. 8 MS
. DAUBARAS : Okay. At this 9 point, I'd like to move to have Agency A-8 10 placed into evidence. 11 MR. BORTH: No objection, Judge. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 8 for 13 identification is received into evidence as 14 Agency A-8. 15 (Agency Exhibit A-8 was received 16 into evidence.) 17 MS
. DAUBARAS : At this time, I 18 would like to have, just one moment please, 19 Your Honor. I would like to have a document 20 marked as Agency Exhibit A-9 for 21 identification. 22 (Agency Exhibit A-9 was marked for
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1 identification.) 2 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 3 Q Let the record reflect that I'm 4 showing the witness a document marked for 5 identification as A-9 and would you please 6 describe that document? 7 A This document is a time line that 8 I generatedusing the company's loadmanifest. 9 The one they provided me from the day before 10 for the look back. And then, the two load 11 manifests found on the scene. 12 Q All right, and what are the Z 13 numbers? 14 A The Z numbers are Zulu time which' 15 is a universal time. 16 Q And did you convert for a reason 17 to Zulu? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what was your reason? 20 A Well, two reasons. Pilots use 21 Zulu time a lot to keep things standard, but 22 also on the loadmanifests whoever filled them
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1 out switched between eastern time and central 2 time. So, it was very confusing to figure out 3 which hours and times they were using. So, I 4 also, that's why I switched it to Zulu time. 5 So, it was one standard universal time. 6 Q What did this determination show 7 you? 8 A My chart? 9 Q Yes. 10 A My chart indicates that there was 11 a flight that was taken into the rest period 12 of the pilot. 13 Q And could you describe how you 14 came to that conclusion? 15 A Sure. When you are to look back 16 because it's a revolving, you know, 24 hours. 17 So, you have to look back to see that there's 18 ten hours of rest. So, the first load, well, 19 we don't have it here, but the load, we do, 20 but I have to look to when he ended his duty 21 the day before. It was on the 27th when he 22 landed in Crawfordsville with the mechanical
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1 which that ended 2 up 3 Q And when you say he, who are you 4 referring to? 5 A Mr. Didier. 6 Q Okay, thank you. 7 A Because he was the PIC. So, 8 that's when his duty day ended and he had a 9 rest period from 2200 Zulu to 1200 Zulu which 10 lS when he started his day, which if you look 11 at Exhibits 15-1 and the time he put 0700 duty 12 on time, but down below if you look at his 13 block out is 048, so that was central time and 14 the 0700 is eastern time. So, I verified that 15 with the Flight Aware to help when they track 16 the time so when the planes left. 17 So, 1200 Zulu is when his day 18 started which meant when he started there, he 19 had 14 hours of rest because if you look back, 20 there was 14 hours. As you proceed forward, 21 the key time would be 0200 Zulu because that 22 would give him only ten hours from 0200 to
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• 83 1 1200. So, if you draw a line down from 0200 2 onto the 28th, anything after 0200 that was, 3 you know, planted on would be in his ten hours 4 of rest period of time. 5 So, when he was 1n Jessup, it was 6 0100 and he was on the ground there, not in 7 the air and the IFR flight plan filed listed 8 Didier as the PIC. Listed 2308 as the planned 9 departure time and listed the flight to be 10 three hours and 25 minutes. So, an hour into 11 his flight, he would be in his rest period and 12 he could not complete three hours and 25 13 minutes in an hour time. So, that flight 14 should not have departed. 15 Q And at the time when that flight 16 departed, where was the aircraft? 17 A On the ground at Jessup. 18 Q All right. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's K-j-e-s 20 THE WITNESS: K-j-e-s, yes. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, the Court 22 understands when you're underneath 0100 Zulu
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1 to 0450 Zulu, you go 3.7 flight hours and if 2 I understand your testimony when the 3 individual was on the ground in Jessup, it was 4 0100 Zulu. 5 THE WITNESS: Um-hmm. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 7 yes or no. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court Reporter 10 can't pick up -- 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right, and 13 then 450 Zulu was the arrival time or the 14 projected arrival time at some destination? 15 THE WITNESS: That 450 is the time 16 that was listed when the accident happened. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: On the accident 19 report. So, I, what we use 1s, you know, 20 planning. It's all about planning and the 21 only piece of paper provided to me. There was 22 nothing, the GON because everything is
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### 1 verbally assigned. There was no documentation 2 

### to the assignment. The only piece of paper 3 that we had was the IFR flight plan that 4 

### listed Didier as the PIC and listed when they 5 

### proposed to leave which was 2308 and that the 6 

### flight time from Jessup to Palwaukee, 7 according to that flight plan, was three hours 8 and 25 minutes. So, if you can complete three 9 hours and 25 minutes and not go in your rest 10 period, you would be legal to go, but at 0200, 11 that's where his ten hours cut off would be
. 12 So, if he flies anything after 0200 that would 13 be in his rest period. So, he would only 14 depart an hour and then be in his rest period. 15 So, knowingly on the ground, you're going to 16 exceed your rest period. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead, Counsel. 18 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 19 Q 

### And when you say planning and rest 20 period, what does that mean? Well, all right. 21 What is considered a rest period? 22 A 

### Time you are not obligated to
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1 

### work. Actually, it's an illegal interp, but 2 when you're under the obligation of the air 3 carrier, that's not considered rest. 4 Q 

### All right, and when Mr. Didier was 5 in the aircraft prior to arriving in

-- 6 A 

### West Palm? 7 Q 

### -- West Palm, I'm sorry, was he at 8 rest when he was on the aircraft? 9 A No.· 

### 10 Q 

### And why is that? 11 A 

### Bed-head is not considered rest. 12 

### He isn't on assignment from the company, 13 therefore, he is not on rest. 14 Q 

### And you mentioned that you also 15 used other documents in coming to that 16 

### conc1usion. I'd like to have the document 17 

### marked for identification as A-10. Let the 18 record reflect that I'm showing the witness a 19 document. Would you tell me what that is? 20 

### (Agency Exhibit A-10 was marked 21 

### for identification.) 22 A 

### This is an e-mail that I received
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1 from flight plan of the IFR flight plans that 2 were filed and activated for 5977 November and 3 November 4599 Fox Trot. 4 Q I'm sorry, could you repeat that? 5 A This lS an e-mail reflecting the 6 IFR flight plans that were filed and activated 7 for aircraft November 59773 and November 4599 8 Fox Trot. 9 Q And what is Flight Aware? 10 A Oh, this is flight plan dot com. 11 Q Oh, it's Flight Plan, okay, I'm 12 sorry? 13 A Is a way for the pilots to file 14 their IFR flight plans. 15 Q And the information in there are 16 actual times? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay, what are they? 19 A They are estimated times to when 20 they're ready to depart. 21 MR. BORTH: I'm sorry, they're 22 what times?
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1 

### THE WITNESS: Estimated times for 2 departure. 3 

### MR. BORTH: Thank you. 4 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 5 Q 

### At some point, do they become hard 6 

### numbers? 7 A 

### Not on this form, no. This is a 8 

### flight plan. This is a planned information. 9 

### MS. DAUBARAS: All right. At this 10 time, I would like to have Exhibit A-9 and A11 10 admitted into evidence
. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection to - 13 14 

### MR. BORTH: I'm sorry, Judge, I 15 apologize. No objection. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: To either one? 17 

### MR. BORTH: To A-10. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Or A-9? 19 MR. BORTH: A-9 I would object to 20 as I don't think that's a proper exhibit. I 21 think it's demonstrative, but I don't think 22 it's a evidentiary exhibit, substantive

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1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: A-10 for 2 identification is received into evidence as A3 10. A-9, your objection is sustained, but I 4 

### would point out that the record in its memory 5 

### and some detail what the demonstrative exhibit 6 

### shows. It's a part of the administrative 7 record peer review but essentially this is a, 8 

### it's helpful to the Court because it puts a 9 visual learner, not harmful, but it's to 10 the testimony. I think the testimony 1s 11 clear. So, I'll sustain the objection as to 12 Agency 9. 13 

### (Agency Exhibit A-10 was received 14 

### into evidence.) 15 

### MS
. DAUBARAS: Let me make an 16 offer of proof, Your Honor. This investigator 17 prepared that document. 18 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Understand. 19 MS. DAUBARAS: And she used the 20 data that was available to her and I have more 21 data that's going to be going in. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.
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1 MS. DAUBARAS: I'd like to have 2 this marked as Agency Exhibit 11 for 3 identification. 4 (Agency Exhibit A-ll was marked 5 for identification.) 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just for your 7 records, I don't show that you offered Agency 8 7 for identification. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: Agency 7? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's the 11 witness's transcription of her memory of the 12 phone call with Mr. Blodgett. 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. Did I not 14 offer it into evidence? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Without looking at 16 the transcript, I don't show that it was 17 offered. 18 MR. BORTH: I don't think it was, 19 Your Honor. I've been keeping track. 20 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay, at this time, 21 I would ask that Agency Exhibit 7 be admitted 22 into evidence.
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• 91
1 

### MR. BORTH: No objection. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency 7 for 3 identification is received into evidence as 4 Agency 7. 5 Okay, 

### now that shows I think the Court's up to 6 

### date now and whatever your next exhibit is 7 will be 11. 8 

### (Agency Exhibit A-7 was received 9 into evidence.) 10 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay, Agency 11 Exhibit 11
. 12 BY MS
..DAUBARAS: 13 Q 

### Let the record reflect that I'm 14 

### showing the witness a document. Could you 15 tell me what that document is? 16 A 

### This document is a print out from 17 Flight Aware for aircraft November 59773. 18 Q 

### And what does that show? 19 A 

### Flight Aware uses government air 20 traffic data to track flights and it shows the 21 date, 

### aircraft, where they departed from, 22 

### where they were going, the departure times,
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• 92
1 arrival times, and the duration of the 2 flights. 3 Q Thank you, and are those actual 4 numbers? 5 A Based off the data that Flight 6 Aware uses. 7 Q All right, and did you use that in 8 preparing what was offered as Agency Exhibit 9 A-ll? 10 A I used it to help with the 11 conflict of the different times and stuff to 12 make sure I was using the right hours, yes. 13 Q Okay. So, it's your testimony 14 that that document has actual hours in flight, 15 is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Rather than the first exhibit that 18 we talked about just had the planning? 19 A Correct. 20 Q All right, and does that show that 21 it purports with what was shown in the 22 planning?
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• 93
1 MR. BORTH: I'll object to -- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know, I'm not 3 sure the Court understands the question. So, 4 rephrase the question. 5 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think I know 7 what you want to ask, but it's not clear. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Did the flights occur as they were 10 planned? 11 A No. 12 MR. BORTH: Well, I'm going to 13 object to who planned them. That's what I'm 14 trying to figure out here. Is this the pilot 15 or is this the certificate holder making the 16 plan. There's a difference. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to ask 18 you to again to rephrase. I want to make sure 19 the record is clear. I understand what you're 20 trying to say and I think Mr. Barnett does but 21 I'm not sure the record is clear to a third 22 party who may take a look at it. So, just a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 94 1 

### matter of rephrasing. 2 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 3 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 4 Q 

### When you looked at the planning 5 

### document 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Which for the 7 

### record is nine for identification? 8 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Nine for 9 identification. I think that was moved into 10 

### evidence. 11 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, but it's not 12 

### 1n evidence because the Court sustained the 13 

### objection, but the testimony describing the 14 

### contents of Exhibit 9. Exhibit 9 is the 15 

### schematic, what I call a schematic 16 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Oh, okay. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: For the flight 18 

### plan. And the witness described the contents 19 

### of the schematic. So, the schematic 1s 20 essentiallyduplicitous of her testimony. So, 21 

### I think the question is does Exhibit 11 

### which 22 

### you're now referring to, is it consistent with
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• 95
1 nine for identification? 2 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 3 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 4 Q Is the exhibit that you're looking 5 at now -- 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which is 11 for 7 identification. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Which is 11 for identification 10 A The Flight Aware page. I need to 11 make sure on -- 12 Q Okay. Flight Aware. 13 A Okay. 14 Q All right. Does that comport with 15 what you said in your schematic? 16 A Yes. Well, wait. 17 Q All right. Go ahead, you explain 18 it. 19 A I, you, okay, this

-- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, what/s this? 21 THE WITNESS: Flight Aware. 22 MR. BORTH: That's A-11.
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• 96
1 THE WITNESS: Okay, A-11. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-11, okay. 3 THE WITNESS: A-11. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's be clear. 5 A-ll is what you testified is a print out of 6 the data contained in Flight Aware which is an 7 Internet computer based program. 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Which purportedly 10 shows departure times and departure arrivals, 11 is that correct? 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: And does the data 14 on Exhibit A-ll for identification is it 15 consistent with what you described in nine for 16 identification which was schematic of your 17 testimony? 18 THE WITNESS: When I

-- 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: And are the times 20 consistent or identical? 21 THE WITNESS: They, hold on, 22 because I used the company's form is the load
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• 97
1 manifest. So, I used what they had. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 3 THE WITNESS: Because that's their 4 documentation to show this. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And that's what 6 you used to complete A-9. Is that correct? 7 THE WITNESS: So, it's 7:58 8 eastern time and 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, as you will 10 have to convert some stuff to Zulu. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, here's the 12 problem, the time zone. So, it is very close 13 but some of them, like it's minutes close, but 14 like Didier, well, you know, 1900 block out 15 which is central time because it would have 16 been, because he checked, you know, this says 17 8:57 eastern time so. 18 MR. BORTH: Can I ask you to refer 19 to the exhibit that you're reading from, 20 please? Is it A-9? 21 THE WITNESS: Sorry. It's the 22 load manifest for the trips. The two 135
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• 98
1 legs. 2 MR. BORTH: The signed one? 3 THE WITNESS: The signed one, yes. 4 MR. BORTH: Okay, thank you. 5 That's eight, A-8. 6 THE WITNESS: A-8. 7 MR. BORTH: Page two. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. So, if I look 10 at these 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Walk us througp 12 this. Take a look at Exhibit A-8 and there's 13 some data written there. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, here's the 15 problem

-- 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: And walk us 17 through it and show how it shows up on A-9 18 which is your schematic and A-11. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. On this one, 20 which is the signed one, the load manifest 21 shows you the block out time and it will show 22 the block in time which is when the aircraft
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• 99
1 blocks out -- when the aircraft blocks in. 2 The Flight Aware lS go1ng to show you when 3 they contact air traffic. So, the times 4 aren't go1ng to match because they're not 5 depicting the same thing, but they coincide 6 with each other that if you're blocked out at, 7 you know, 7:00 o'clock and you checked in at 8 seven, you know. I mean the times

-- 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay
. If you 1ook 10 at Exhibit A-8 for identification, the signed 11 page -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, there are 14 two pages. One is signed, one is not. 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, what you're 17 saying 1s that on page two of two of Exhibit 18 A-8, the data is entered by the crew, whoever 19 the crew is? 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's just talk 22 generically.
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• 100
1 THE WITNESS: Sure. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sol that 1 S going 3 to be more accurate -- 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: than data that 6 you would download off as an example off of 7 something like A-11 which is an air traffic 8 control document

-- 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- which is when 11 someone talks to air traffic control. So/ if 12 ATC is backed up receiving calls 1 it could be 13 as much as several minutes? 14 THE WITNESS: Sure. So 1 the one 1 15 the signed document will show you when the 16 pilot 1s saying that they blocked all the 17 chalks and blocked in 1 and this is showing 18 when the Flight Aware started to track them. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: This/ this is 20 what? This is A-11 which is the Flight Aware 21 data? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. That 1s when
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• 101
1 a1r traffic starts tracking them. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not a computer 4 whiz to know the exact minute that they look 5 to start that, but so the more accurate 6 document is the load manifest 1s what I used 7 to develop. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Because that's 9 what the crew members were filling out in a 10 flight? 11 THE WITNESS: Um-hmm. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Does 13 anybody have any questions based on the 14 Court's inquiry? 15 MS. DAUBARAS: No, thank you, Your 16 Honor. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, we're just 18 talking generically now. So, let's come back 19 to this case and tell the Court what you 20 discovered looking at these three documents 21 starting with the manifest and let's skip the 22 schematic for now? Let's talk about the
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# .. 102 manifest which is A-8 for identification and Flight Aware. THE WITNESS: Okay. JUDGE GOODWIN: Is all the data there consistent? You already testified that you would expect anomalies between the manifest and Flight Aware given that the manifest is filled out probablyjust about the time the crew does something whereas Flight Aware is dependent upon the ability of the
crew to communicate with air traffic control. THE WITNESS: Understood. I would say that do the times match for when the crew said that they blocked out and when Flight Aware took place and when the crew said they blocked in for each leg, yes. JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. All right. Does the Agency have any questions based on the Court's questions or does the Respondent have any questions based on the Court's questions? MR. BORTH: No, I don't have any NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 103 1 questions, Judge. I think you cleared it up. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: And just for the 3 witnesses, you've got to understand that 4 everybody here in the courtroom probably 5 understands what's going on, but these cases 6 if appealed get reviewed bypeople who may not 7 have a clue what we're talking about and so we 8 want to make sure that we develop a clear 9 record. And my cases get appealed to the 10 Office of General Counsel of the Agency and 11 then go from there to Federal Circuit, and the 12 last thing we want to do is get some Federal 13 Circuit Court Judge wrapped around the axle 14 trying to figure out what we talked about. 15 THE WITNESS: All right, Your 16 Honor. 17 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 18 Q In referring to A-8, there are two 19 pages to that document and that is another 20 load manifest. Could you explain what that 21 is? 22 MR. BORTH: Which page?
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• 104
1 JUDGE GOODWIN: You mean page one 2 of Exhibit 8? 3 MS. DAUBARAS: Two, yes, two. 4 THE WITNESS: That's the one we've 5 been talking about? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just for the 7 record, there are two pages of load manifest. 8 One has a signature on it. The Court has 9 marked that as page two of two. The one 10 without a signature, the Court marked as page 11 one of one, just because that's how you handed 12 them to me. 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Sorry, that's 14 backwards, but that's okay. 15 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 16 Q All right. Let's take a little, 17 down a different lane. What other information 18 did you obtain in your investigation?

. 19 A We pulled data about the pilots

20 from our database and we pulled data about the 21 aircraft from our database. 22 MS
. DAUBARAS : Okay, and Your
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• 105
1 Honor, I'd like to have this document marked 2 as Agency Exhibit 12 for identification. 3 (Agency Exhibit A-12 was marked 4 for identification.) 5 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 6 Q Could you tell me what that 7 document is, please? 8 MR. BORTH: Can I see a copy of 9 that, please? 10 MS. DAUBARAS: Sure, as soon as we 11 get it straightened out. 12 MR. BORTH: I'd like to see what-- 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, okay. 14 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 15 Q Would you please describe what 16 that document is? 17 A You didn't give it to me yet. 18 Q I'm sorry. Let the record reflect 19 I'm showing the witness a document. Could you 20 tell me what that document is? 21 A This document is from our airman 22 database and this is the airman information of
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• 106
1 William Didier. 2 Q and what kind of 3 certificates did Mr. Didier hold? 4 A Flight instructor, ground 5 instructor, mechanic, and airline transport 6 pilot. 7 Q Okay, and other information that 8 is obtained in there, could you briefly did he 9 have any accidents prior to this one? 10 A There are no accidents or 11 incidents reported and there were no 12 enforcement actions reported on Mr. Didier. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, let's talk 14 at this point for a second. I want to draw 15 Counsel, both Counsels attention to the fact 16 that we have this gentleman's Social Security 17 number, his date of birth, his description, 18 I'm guessing his home address on this. My 19 suggestion would be we either seal this 20 document or we redact the Social Security 21 number, date of birth, home address, you know, 22 and so forth, that are not relevant to the
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• 107
1 case. Let's redact that information even 2 before I make it a part of the administrative 3 record. 4 MR. BORTH: Yes, I would ask that 5 we strike all those identifying

-- 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I normally have a 7 black magic marker but I seem to have 8 forgotten it. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: I don't have one 10 with me either. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, the Court 12 will redact, if the parties are in agreement, 13 the Court will redact the Social Security 14 number, the date of birth, the hair color, the 15 eye color, height and weight, both addresses. 16 Is there any other information? Does the 17 medical or the medical ID give anybody-- 18 MR. BORTH: I think that's public, 19 Judge, I believe. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: I've had cases 21 with airlines and if you have an employee 22 number and like the database, you get a string
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• 108 1 of numbers. 2 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay, and it's just 3 been pointed out to me that the flight 4 instructor numbers are old ones and that they 5 are actually his Social Security number also. 6 So, those would have to be taken out. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, so -- 8 THE WITNESS: On the previous 9 certificate. 10 MR. BORTH: Yes, Your Honor, the 11 previous certificate numbers back before 2002 12 we used to use -- 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, that's like 14 in the military, they used to use Social 15 Security numbers on. 16 MR. BORTH: And those are listed 17 on the very bottom of that page. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, which page 19 were you looking at? 20 MR. BORTH: The first page, sir. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, the 22 certificate numbers are all related to the
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• 109 1 

### Social Security number or not? 2 

### THE WITNESS: Yes, previous 3 certificate number information, the bottom, 4 some of those are his Social Security number. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, I see. I was 6 on the wrong line. 7 

### MR. BORTH: Some are essentially. 8 

### THE WITNESS: Also, my AVS number 9 is on here. That will need to be redacted. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we do 11 

### this? 'why don't we just redact all the 12 certificate numbers

-- 13 

### MR. BORTH: Judge, if I may make a 14 

### suggestion. On page three of this record, 15 based on the testimony you heard, it appears 16 that the importance of this document to the 17 testimony is that there were incidents or 18 accidents from Mr. Didier and page three sets 19 

### that out clearly. I think if we just don't 20 admit the and just give back to Counsel the 21 first two pages, we don't have to redact 22 

### anything because

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• 110
1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's a part 2 of the record. I can go ahead and redact it. 3 It g1ves the Court something to do. 4 

### MR. DAUBARAS : Okay, and Your 5 Honor 6 

### MR. BORTH: Okay, fair enough. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And what I'm going 8 to do just for consistency, I'm going to 9 redact all the certificate numbers. There's 10 

### no, just remember the Court stronglybelieves, 11 

### I don't want anything in the public record 12 

### that gives anybody a starting point. 13 

### MS
. DAUBARAS : I agree, Your 14 

### Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: What's an airman 16 

### FTN? Is that a number that somebody could use 17 

### to do anything? 18 

### MS
. DAUBARAS : What is it, an 19 

### airman? 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, on the 21 

### second page, there's an airman FTN. What's 22 that number mean?

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• v 111
1 

### THE WITNESS: That number 2 

### MR. BORTH: That's for

-- 3 

### THE WITNESS: It's for-- Yes, you 4 want to strike that. 5 

### MR. BORTH: Yes, you can get rid 6 of that, too. 7 

### THE WITNESS: Your Honor, also at 8 the top of every page is my AVS FAA 

### ID. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, where is 10 that? 11 THE 

### WITNESS: Where it says user 12 of this page and it says by AVS/AGL203SB. 13 That's on every page. That's my user ID. 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, I see. 15 

### THE WITNESS: If we could not have 16 that, it would be great. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I don't 18 know, Mr. Barnett may want it. 19 

### MR. BORTH: I was going to say, it 20 might be handy. 21 THE WITNESS: It's password 22 

### protected, too.
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• 112
1 MR. BORTH: I'm kidding. 2 THE WITNESS: It's only 30 days to 3 change, but I prefer it not to be there. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: What I'm going to 5 ask you to do after the hearing if any of you 6 come across something, call Ms. Matthews. Ohe 7 of the things I've tasked Ms. Matthews to do 8 is to remove this and review the transcript 9 and exhibits to make sure that we don't miss 10 something. That happens from time to time. 11 So, 12 is still marked for 12 identification. 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay, at this time, 14 I'd like to move for Exhibit, marked for 15 identification, Exhibit 12 be admitted into 16 evidence. 17 MR. BORTH: With the redactions 18 though. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court will 20 admit with redactions. Exhibit 12 for 21 identification is received into evidence as 22 Exhibit 12 with redactions.
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• 113
1 (Agency Exhibit A-12 was received 2 into evidence with redactions.) 3 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 4 Q Ms. Boerman, did you have 5 opportunity to interview Mr. Wolf? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And did you make a memorandum of 8 that interview? 9 A I made, yes. 10 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'd 11 like to have marked as Agency Exhibit A-13
. 12 (Agency Exhibit A-13 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 15 Q Let the record reflect that I'm 16 showing the witness a document marked as 17 AgencyExhibit A-13 for identification. Could 18 you tell me what that document is? 19 A This is a record of my telephone 20 conversation with Mr. Andrew Wolf. 21 Q And do you remember when you spoke 22 with Mr. Wolf?
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• 114 1 A December 7, 2011 at 11:00 a.m. 2 Q So, that was a while after the 3 accident. Is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Who lS Mr. Wolf? 6 A Mr. Wolf was another person on the 7 aircraft at the time of the accident. 8 Q And what was his role at that 9 time? 10 A According to the manifest, he was 11 listed as other crew. 12 Q Do you know what he was supposed 13 to be doing on that flight? 14 A I only know what he told me. 15 Q Okay. What did he tell you? 16 MR. BORTH: Object to hearsay. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Wolf said that 19 he was hired a few weeks ago by Trans North to 20 be a second 1n command pilot under 135. He 21 had not received all his training yet, and he 22 had only flown on two trips prior to this trip
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• 115
1 

### and once on November 59773. That he had flown 2 November 59773 from Oshkosh to Crawfordsville 3 with Mr. Quentin Levitte to replace the 4 aircraft that had the malfunctioning attitude 5 indicator, and that he stated that his purpose 6 of the flight was to learn the aircraft on the 7 Part 91 legs. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q 

### So, approximately, how much time 10 did he have in the aircraft? 11 A 

### That would be in his log book, but 12 he's 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stop one minute. 14 I'm looking at Exhibit, let me go back to my 15 train of thought. A-3 for identification 16 which is the OP specs, page A007-1 and I got 17 Mr. Schaberg, Mr. Fox and Mr. Keenan's e-mail 18 

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• 116 1 ln the public record, in the generally 2 accepted public, I know they're in the FAA 3 database? 4 MR. BORTH: I don't believe so. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I'm going 6 to redact their e-mail addresses and their 7 telephone numbers unless somebody has 8 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. I have no 9 problem with that. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's what I mean 11 by sometimes

-- 12 MR. BORTH: Then again, some of 13 these

-- 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, the problem 15 with government forms is they so many times 16 ask for information that's important to the 17 database, but not important to be in a daily18 19 MR. BORTH: Sure. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: And the other 21 thing is did we introduce the accident report 22 through this witness, is that correct?
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• 117
1 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, we did. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm go1ng to ask. 3 We're obviously not going to make it through 4 the entirety of her testimony before lunch so 5 what I'm going to ask her to do during the 6 break is to review the accident report·in lieu 7 of the Court's concerns, for instance, I'm 8 looking at apparently the data of Mr. 9 Didier, I**think~** on page two. So, what I'm 10 going to ask you to do is to review it. And 11 then when we return, let Counsel know what 12 information we should redact there as well as 13 the manifest. And I'm also looking at the 14 current Exhibit 13 under the language typed 15 Andrew Wolf, whose phone number is that? 16 MS. DAUBARAS: I believe that's 17 Mr. Wilson's. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, we'll redact 19 that. What I'm going to do is take a look at 20 all your exhibits when we take a break just to 21 make sure. I'm just going to be very ultra, 22 ultra conservative.
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• 118
1 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. Your Honor, 2 I would like to have, I do have this marked as 3 Agency Exhibit A-14. 4 

### (Agency Exhibit A-14 was marked 5 for identification.) 6 

### BY MS. DAUBARAS: 7 Q 

### Let the record reflect that I'm 8 showing the witness a document that's been 9 marked for identification as A-14. Would you 10 tell me what this is, what that document is? 11 A 

### This document is photographs of 12 Mr. Wolf's log book that were obtained on the 13 scene. 14 Q 

### Okay, and does it indicate how 15 many hours he had in the aircraft? 16 

### MR. BORTH: Objection, relevance. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want to 18 respond, Counsel? 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, he was 20 assigned by the Trans North to fly the 91 21 flight down to Indianapolis and further, 22 actually, to Florida.
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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: But aren't we 2 concerned about whether a different pilot was 3 over hours? 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So then, do I care 6 whether Mr. Wolf is over or under hours or 7 even certified? How is it 8 MS. DAUBARAS: Is there an 9 objection as to relevancy? Then I would 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 11 MS
.**DAUB~RAS** : Okay, I believe 12 it's relevant because this individual could 13 not possibly have flown that aircraft under 14 any emergency conditions or anything else. He 15 was not certified even to fly, as far as I'm 16 concerned, that 91 flight. I believe that the 17 pilot actually, Mr. Didier, flew the legs as 18 we have been told numerous times and that this 19 individual never flew the aircraft. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: At this point, the 21 Court's golng to sustain the objection. 22 However, if the testimony comes up ln
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1 

### Respondent's case, I think that's appropriate 2 rebuttal and the Court will review it's 3 ruling. 4 

### MS. DAUBARAS: All right, thank 5 

### you. I would like to have this marked as 6 Agency Exhibit A-15. 7 

### (Agency Exhibit A-15 was marked 8 for identification.) 9 BY MS
. DAUBARAS : 10 Q 

### Let the record reflect I'm showing 11 the witness

-- 12 

### MR. BORTH: Could I see the 13 exhibit, please? 14 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, just a minute, 15 a document. Here you go. 16 

### MR. BORTH: Judge, again, I'll 17 object to the use of this document and any 18 testimony about this. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I haven't 20 seen the document so it's 21 

### MR. BORTH: Okay. 22 BY MS. DAUBARAS:
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1 Q 

### Would you describe what that 2 document is? 3 A 

### This document is data from our 4 staff database, airman information report for 5 Mr. Andrew Wolf. 6 Q 

### Okay. Approximately, how many 7 total hours of flying time did Mr. Wolf have? 8 

### MR. BORTH: I' 11 

### object again, 9 

### Judge, to relevance. Same reasons as the 10 prior Exhibit A-14. It's my understanding 11 that

-- 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is the pilot who 13 was over hours Mr. Didier according to the 14 FAA's position? 15 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: And this document 17 relates to who? 18 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Mr. Wolf. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm going to 20 sustain at this point with the same caveat if 21 the Respondent brings this up as part of 22 defense, I invite you to renew your motion to
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1 submit. 2 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 3 Q All right. You have Agency's 4 Exhibit marked for identification as I believe 5 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thirteen has been 7 marked for identification. So, it's part of 8 the administrative record. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: But the Court 11 doesn't have it. Well, actually, the Court 12 has is 14. 13 MS. DAUBARAS: Is 14, all right. 14 This is 15. No, I believe that one has 15 already been marked for identification. I 16 just don't know what. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, which one is 18 that? 19 MS. DAUBARAS: It's his

-- 20 MR. BORTH: I think that's A-13, 21 Judge. 22 MS. DAUBARAS: This 1s A-13?
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1 MR. BORTH: I believe so. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thirteen 1s a 3 memorandum of the telephone call to Mr. Wolf. 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 5 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 6 Q Going back to Mr. Wolf's telephone 7 call with you, did he describe the flight? 8 A Yes, he described the flight from 9 Jessup to Palwaukee. 10 Q Okay, and he was described as a 11 passenger pilot, I believe, for that flight in 12 documents provided by Trans North Aviation? 13 MR. BORTH: Objection, leading. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 15 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 16 Q Do you know what

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• 124 1 Q All right, and where was he 2 sitting in the aircraft, if you know? 3 A He was sitting in the right front 4 seat. 5 Q Okay, and at some time during that 6 flight, return flight, did he tell you that he 7 had taken over some of the controls? 8 A He took over the controls once the 9 engines failed. 10 Q All right, and he actually flew 11 the aircraft to the ground, is that correct? 12 MR. BORTH: Objection, relevance. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'll allow 14 it at this time so overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: The

-- 16 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 17 Q So, where was he sitting in the 18 aircraft? 19 A He was sitting up front in the 20 right seat. 21 Q All right, and what did he observe 22 while he was sitting in the right seat?
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1 A 

### He observed that, I guess I'll 2 just read it. He said during the flight from 3 

### Jessup to Palwaukee, they encountered 4 turbulence and descended from 10,000 feet to 5 

### 7,000 feet. Near the south side of Lake 6 Michigan, Mr. Didier flipped back to the augs 7 tanks to use up all the fuel in the augs 8 tanks. The last quarter of the main tank was 9 consumed pretty fast as it appeared on the 10 gauges. The right fuel flow warning light 11 

### came on north of Palwaukee. Mr.**D~dier** 

### 12 selected the cross feed valve to its on 13 position. They left both main tanks on the on 14 position. The fuel warning light went out. 15 

### Mr. Wolf queried this technique 16 and Mr. Didier responded it will even out the 17 tanks. Mr. Wolf learned the fuel system the 18 day before the accident. The fuel light came 19 on again and Mr. Didier declared an emergency. 20 The right engine started to sputter and the 21 flight was cleared direct to the airport. The 22 cloud tops were at 3,000 feet. Mr. Didier
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• 126
1 turned left towards Palwaukee andboth engines 2 died on the west heading. Mr. Didier 3 feathered the engines. 4 The airplane was in the clouds 5 during the descent and popped out about 1400 6 feet. There was about 700 feet of altitude 7 left. Mr. Wolf made some radio calls. Mr. 8 Didier turned to a south bound heading. The 9 flight was asked if they had the airport in 10 sight and they replied no. 11 Mr. Wolf advised Mr. Didier of 12 suitable landing sites, but the flight was 13 unable to get to them. The landing gear was 14 up. Mr. Didier moved the mixture to idle 15 cutoff and feathered the engine propellers. 16 Mr. Wolf pointed out a dark spot to Mr. Didier 17 and he turned to it. The airplane scraped the 18 top of trees. The first tree impacted the 19 pilot side and it came through the window. 20 Both Mr. Didier and Mr. Wolf were on the 21 flight controls. The controls went with. Mr. 22 Wolf indicated he had tried to keep the
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• 127 1 

### airplane away from the houses. Both of his 2 yoke handles broke off. He blacked out until 3 someone from a neighborhoodhouse found him in 4 the wreckage and asked if he was okay. 5 The right engine was new and Mr. 6 Didier bumped up the mixture on the right 7 engine about one down per hour to its break 8 in. Mr. Wolf indicated that the pilot acted 9 abnormally, sporadic and weird in Florida. 10 Mr. Didier set his power settings from a card 11 

### that was kept ln the windows visor. There 12 

### were no englne abnormalities during the 13 flight. Mr. Wolf stated Mr. Didier told him 14 not to tell anyone about going into reserve 15 fuel. 16 

### MR. BORTH: Judge, I'll object and 17 

### move to strike all of that. This has no 18 relevance whatsoever to the allegations 19 contained in the administrator's complaint. 20 It's not relevant. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 22 sustain it to the extent that it's not
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### 1 relevant to the allegations of the complaint. 2 The Court's going to have to, some of it may 3 be relevant, but the allegation is that 4 

### someone was over hours on flying. I'm not 5 sure the Court cares whether it was an 6 accident. So, it will be sustained, but the 7 Court will review the testimony and consider 8 only that which is relevant to the matter 9 before the Court. 10 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Well, excuse me, 11 but I would like to make an offer of proof 12 

### with regard to this. Then I guess what we're 13 saying is that his actions, the pilot's 14 actions as described by Mr. Wolf, could not 15 have been caused by the fact that he failed to 16 have sufficient rest. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: But I thought that 18 the sole allegation before the Court is that 19 someone was over hours in terms of their 20 

### flight. Is that correct? 21 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Right. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, I don't think
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1 the charge, any other charge is before the 2 Court. So, if he did something in complete 3 violation of the regs unless that allegation 4 is before me, the testimony that's not related 5 to the allegation that they were over, into 6 his rest period doesn't help the Court ln 7 determining whether or not he's in violation 8 of the 14 CFR 135.267(d)
.



### .. 9 MS. DAUBARAS: The whole purpose 10 of the 135.267(d) is to insure that the person 11 has sufficient rest while acting as a pilot in 12 command and I believe that this shows that 13 there was some affect on this pilot, Mr. 14 Didier, based upon the fact that he lacked the 15 proper rest. 16 MR. BORTH: Judge, again 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 18 sustain the objection at this time and defer 19 to the Court's prior ruling. The Court's 20 going to review the testimony and that which 21 was to the matter charged by the FAA to be 22 considered.
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• 130 1 MS. DAUBARAS: All right. 2 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 3 Q Were you aware that there was a 4 delay ln the flight back from Florida to 5 Palwaukee? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did the documents that you 8 reviewed indicate that? 9 A No. 10 Q What about the planning documents? 11 Did that indicate that? 12 A Can you rephrase that? 13 Q The flight planning documents and 14 the load manifest or the manifest, did they 15 indicate that there had been a delay? 16 A The company per their GLM so it's 17 only verbal, the company did not provide nor 18 were there any documents on the scene for 19 flight planning purposes. The only flight 20 planning documents that I was able to obtain 21 were the IFR flight plans that were filed. 22 The time of departure out of Jessup on the IFR
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• 1 flight plan was 2308. The actual time they 2 were out of Jessup was 0100 Zulu. Those are 3 both Zulu times. 4 Q And what was the difference 5 between those two times, approximately? 6 A Like, well, they said it was 2308 7 and then 0100. So, one hour and eight 8 minutes. Two hours, sorry, two hours and 9 eight minutes. 10 Q Generally, 135 operators, how do 11 they communicate with regard to how flights 12 are assigned? 13 MR. BORTH: Objection, relevance. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll overrule. Go 15 ahead. 16 MR. BORTH: And speculation as 17 well. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's see 19 where we're going. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 22 Q You're a Principal Operations Inspector, is that correct?
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• 132
1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you also cover other 135 3 operators? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And how do other 135 operators 6 communicate with their employees in order to 7 assign flights to them? 8 MR. BORTH: I'll object to 9 relevance and again as to relevance. What 10 other people do is not relevant. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm not sure where 12 we're going yet because again it comes down to 13 does the person have at least ten consecutive 14 hours of rest during a 24 hour period to 15 proceed with the plan's completion at the time 16 of the assignment. What does the Court care - 17 I' 18 MS. DAUBARAS: At the time of the 19 assignment. We don't know what the time of 20 the assignments were because it wasn't written 21 down anywhere. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, I
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• 133
1 understand that. 2 MS
. DAUBARAS : And that is not 3 generally how 135 operators operate. 4 MR. BORTH: Well, he wasn't 5 violated for not acting as other 135 operators 6 with respect to his flight planning and 7 communication of his flight plans and that's 8 not -- 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'11 allow some 10 limited inquiry here, but it's going to go to 11 weight. To the extent that we're talking 12 about other carriers, the Court's not going to 13 very**~onestly** give a lot of weight to what 14 other carr1ers do. If you want to restate the 15 question, I'll allow the answer? 16 MS
. DAUBARAS : Your Honor, I'm 17 going to go. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry? 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Excuse me. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q Ms. Boerman, based upon your 22 experienceandyourknowledge, what conclusion
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• 134 1 did you come to at the end of this 2 investigation? 3 A That there were violations of the 4 regulations that took place and that the only 5 documentation I have planned was the IFR 6 flight plan with Mr. Didier to sit as the 7 pilot, departure time of 2308, the three hour 8 and 25 minute flight. They were on the ground 9 communicating to their DO who has operational 10 control of the airplane and the pilots. 11 Texting back and forth and that they departed 12 at 0100 for a three hour and 25 minute flight 13 and their rest period needed to start at 0200, 14 and Mr. Didier would not make three hours and 15 25 minutes in 0200. So, there's a violation 16 of the ten consecutive hours of rest period. 17 Q And were you aware that there was 18 a delay? 19 MR. BORTH: Objection, asked and 20 answered. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 135
1 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 2 Q Do you know what that delay was? 3 A I was told the patient was late. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, I 5 couldn't hear you. 6 THE WITNESS: The patient was 7 late. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q Would you believe that that's an 10 unforeseen circumstance? 11 A No. 12 Q Why not? 13 A Because unforeseen circumstances, 14 first of all, apply to flight time, not rest 15 period times and an operator will be told that 16 the patient is going to be delayed so they can 17 change what's going to happen if they're on 18 the ground. An unforeseen circumstance 1s 19 something when you're in the air and the 20 President comes into town or there's 21 thunderstorms and you're already in the air 22 flying and you can't control it, but if you're
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• 136 1 already on the ground, you can control if you 2 depart or not. 3 MS. DAUBARAS: Thank you. I have 4 nothing further, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. At this 6 point, it's about 12 minutes of 12:00. The 7 Court is going to take a break until about 8 1:00 o'clock. I'm not sure what the eating 9 accommodations are in the area. I'm going to 10 instruct the witness she's not to discuss her 11 testimony during the recess and ask that 12 everybody returns on or about 1:00 o'clock. 13 We'll resume with Ms. Boerman. Counsel, I'll 14 allow you some latitude when you come back if 15 you have a few additional questions I'll allow 16 it, and then otherwise Mr. Barnett can cross. 17 Okay, we're off the record. 18 (Off the record.) 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're back on the 20 record. I'll remind the witness you're still 21 under oath. Any more direct? 22 MS. DAUBARAS: No, Your Honor. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 137 

### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel? 2 

### MR. BORTH: Good afternoon. 3 Judge, may I inquire? 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 CROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BORTH: 7 Q 

### I want to go over some of the 8 documents and I think in part your schematic 9 

### as we deemed it
. Now, as part of your 10 investigation, I have in my notes the people 11 that you interviewed. Was it Mr. Blodgett? 12 A 

### Um-hmm. 13 Q 

### And Mr. Fox? 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: You have to say 15 yes or no. 16 

### THE WITNESS: Yes and yes. 17 BY MR. BORTH: 18 Q 

### And Mr. Fox, Mr. Blodgett, Mr. 19 Wolf or do I have Fox and Wolf mixed up? 20 A. 

### Yes. Fox, I spoke to on scene and 21 then through e-mail requesting information 22 

### from Trans North.
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• 138 

### 1 Q 

### Okay. And then, did you speak at 2 all with the certificate holder, Mr. Schaberg? 3 A 

### On the scene, that was.it. 4 Q 

### So, that was at the scene of the 5 crash itself? 6 A 

### Um-hmm. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes or no. 8 

### THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I remind you 10 because it's a common thing that everybody 11 does, but it drives the Court Reporter crazy 12 when he or she is trying to record what the 13 government needs. 14 BY MR. BORTH: 15 Q 

### Okay. So, at the scene of the 16 accident, you talked with Mr. Ron Schaberg? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### And what was the essence of that 19 conversation, can you tell us? 20 A 

### To the best of my recollection, it 21 was they were providing information about the 22 flight.
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• 139
1 Q Okay/ and what information did he 2 provide you? 3 A I 

### don 1 t recall all the 4 information. 5 Q Did you memorialize anywhere in a 6 memo or I saw that you have these other 7 telephone conference notes that we 1ve talked 8 about/

-- 9 A No. 10 Q -- that you testified about 1 did 11 you do that with Ron? 12 A No. 13 Q And subsequent to the accident 14 site that was the day after the accident that 15 you were there? 16 A Yes 1 on the 28th. 17 Q Twenty-eighth of November? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you didn 1t speak with him at 20 all after that? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay/ and

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1 A 

### Sir, 1n the informal, we spoke, 2 sorry. 3 Q 

### Okay, fair enough. 4 A 

### Just wanted to make sure. 5 Q 

### But in terms of your 6 investigation, prior to the FAA filing any 7 complaint or violation, alleged violation as 8 to Trans North, you didn't speak with Mr. 9 Schaberg? 10 A 

### Not that I recall, no. 11 

### MR. BORTH: I apologize, Judge, I 12 

### thought I had this one marked. May I 13 approach, Judge? 14 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 15 

### MR. BORTH: I'd like to mark for 16 identification Respondent's R-6. 17 

### (Respondent's Exhibit R-6 was 18 marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. BORTH: 20 Q 

### I'm showing you what we've marked 21 

### as Respondent's No. R-6. Are you familiar 22 with this document?
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• 141
1 A Yes. 2 Q Can you tell us what it is? 3 A This is a letter of investigation 4 sent to Trans North Aviation. 5 Q Okay, and what was the purpose of 6 this letter? 7 A To gather information. 8 Q Okay. What information, 9 specifically, did you seek in this letter? 10 A This office is requesting the name 11 o"f the pilot in command that was assigned by 12 Trans North Aviation, Ltd. for the following 13 flights and it lists the flights. 14 Additionally, please provide the office a 15 detailed description on how Trans North 16 Aviation, Ltd. utilizes their fuel policy form 17 in their day-to-day operation to include any 18 records of disciplinary action or counseling 19 of pilots. 20 Q Okay, and then the bottom is just 21 a -- 22 A Standard revision.

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• 142
1 Q So, ln this letter you didn't 2 request any of the flight planning documents 3 or explanation of the flight planning by the 4 certificate holder at Trans North, did you? 5 A Not in this document, but I did 6 via e-mail to Mr. Fox. I said via e-mail Mr. 7 Fox and I were in correspondence asking for 8 numerous different documents and I did ask 9 him. 10 Q Okay. Did you ever enlist Mr. Fox 11 the certificate holder? 12 A He is the chief pilot and as the 13 FAA we do, we correspond with the DO or chief 14 pilot. 15 Q Okay, and who was the Director of 16 Operations? 17 A Ron. 18 Q Okay, and you never asked him, 19 specifically, for his flight planning 20 documents or an explanation prior to filing 21 this complaint in this matter, his explanation 22 of how this particular flight or flights was
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• 143
1 

### planned, 1s that right? 2 A 

### Yeah, I 

### asked Mr. Fox, the 3 representative chief pilot for Trans North. 4 Q 

### Okay, but my question is did you 5 ever ask Ron? 6 -A 

### Not that I recall. 7 Q 

### And then, you have if you can take 8 

### a look at Exhibit A-10? You still have those 9 exhibits 1n front of you? 10 A 

### Yes, which one A-10? 11 Q 

### A-10. 12 A 

### Okay, yes. 13 Q 

### A-10 is the, I want to make sure 14 

### we clarify something. During your direct 15 testimony, you were talking about flight 16 plans, right? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### And the flight plans you were 19 talking about were flight plans that were 20 filed by the pilot or pilots involved in the 21 flights. Is that correct? 22 A 

### I don't know who filed them.
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• 144
1 Q 

### Okay, but they weren't filed by 2 Trans North, were they? 3 A 

### I don't know that. 4 Q 

### Okay. Let's take a look at 5 Exhibit A-10. You testified earlier that this 6 

### document lS 

### the flight plan from 7 flightplan.com? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### And this details the flights that 10 were, the flight plan that was filed by Mr. 11 Didier, correct? 12 A 

### I don't know who filed the flight 13 plan. 14 Q 

### Okay. Is it your experience that 15 the pilots are the ones that file these flight 16 plans? 17 A 

### It depends on the operator. 18 Q 

### Do you have any evidence to 19 indicate that it was somebody other than the 20 pilot who filed this flight plan? 21 A 

### I don't know who filed the flight 22 plan.
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• 145
1 Q Let's take a look at Exhibit A-8. 2 Do you have**~hat?** 3 A Yeah, mine aren't marked. So, if 4 you could just show it to me that would be way 5 helpful? 6 Q All right. A-8 is the load 7 manifest that

-- 8 A Sure. 9 Q It's a two page document, right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. As to the first page, it 12 indicates that the PIC is Mr. Wolf, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you know where that information 15 came from? 16 A I found this on the scene. 17 Q Okay. Do you know who put in 18 there that Mr. Wolf was the pilot in command 19 for that leg? 20 A No. 21 Q And as to the second one, page two 22 of A-8, it shows that Mr. Didier was the pilot
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• 146
1 1n command, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay, and do you know who wrote 4 that up? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you know if that's his

-- 7 A Well

-- 8 Q Go ahead, I'm sorry. 9 A Didier signed it say1ng. 10 Q Okay, and these are documents that 11 were created by the pilots themselves, 12 correct? 13 A I don't know. The first 1s not 14 signed. So, I don't know who filled it out. 15 The second one is signed by Didier. 16 Q Okay. Did you ever inquire as to 17 who created the first document, page one of A18 8? 19 A Can you be more specific? 20 Q Yes. Did you ever ask anybody as 21 to who to get a foundation for who wrote up 22 page one of A-8?
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• 147
1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Who did you ask? 3 A Mr. Wolf. 4 Q Okay, and what did he say? 5 A Mr. Wolf stated that he did not 6 fill out any paperwork for the flights to 7 include a load manifest. 8 Q Okay, as to this page one of A-8, 9 where was that filled out? Do you know? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q No, I mean, in terms of it says 12 from and to on there? 13 A Oh, okay. I don't know where it 14 was physically filled out. 15 Q I understand. I'm looking for, 16 there's an airport reference at the top. It 17 says from in the first column there. It says 18 from? 19 A Okay. 20 Q What airport is that? 21 A From CFJ. 22 Q Okay, where is that?
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• 148 1 A Crawfordsville. 2 Q Okay. So, somebody, some pilot or 3 some other crew member in Crawfordsville had 4 to have filled this out? 5 A Correct. 6 Q So, is it safe to say that the 7 pilots either Mr. Didier or Mr. Wolf filled 8 out both of these load manifests? 9 A I don't know who filled them out. 10 Q Okay, but it wasn't Ron? 11 A I don't know where he was. I 12 don't know who filled out the paper. I wasn't 13 there. 14 Q Do you know if Ron was l.n 15 Crawfordsville at the time this paper was 16 filled out? 17 A I don't know where he was. 18 Q Now, we have, can you take a look 19 at A-ll which is this Flight Aware document? 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: If you want to 21 borrow the Court's copies to show the witness? 22 BY MR. BORTH:
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• 149 1 Q Well, do you have this? 2 A I have it. 3 Q Do you have A-ll in front of you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay, and can you explain this a 6 little bit? You explained it to a certain 7 degree in direct examination, but this Flight 8 Aware is this a software program? 9 A I don't know. I know you access 10 it through the Internet and I know Flight 11 Aware gathers data from different sources to 12 track flights. 13 Q Okay, and is it your understanding 14 that the data that's in this comes from the 15 flight plan that's filed by the pilots? 16 A No, it is not. 17 Q Okay, where does the information 18 come from? Do you know? 19 A There is on the Flight Aware 20 website, it tells you where it all comes from. 21 I don't have it verbatim. Air traffic, 22 government age;ncy databases. I don't know the
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• 150 1 specifics, but it lS listed on their website 2 where they gather it from. 3 Q Okay, but as to and then you 4 created from the documents that we just went 5 through A-10, A-8 and A-11, you then created 6 your schematic, correct? 7 A I did not use A-ll to create the 8 schematic. I used A-ll just to verify the 9 times made sense on the A-8. 10 Q Okay, and we're in agreement I 11 think that the times set forth on A-11, A-10, 12 and A-8 are essentially the same give or take 13 a few minutes, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay, and you used those numbers 16 and those figures and times to create your 17 schematic known as A-9? 18 A With the exception of A-11, yes. 19 Q Okay, and when you created the A20 9, this schematic, you had no knowledge of 21 what Trans North Ron's flight plan was prior 22 to the flights involved in this case, right?
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• 151 1 A 

### That's not true. 2 Q 

### Okay, what did you know? 3 A 

### Because I also spoke to Mr. 4 

### Quentin Levitte who stated that he verbally 5 

### gave the assignments to the pilots and in 6 

### their GON, it says they verbally give the 7 

### assignments from the Director of Operation. 8 

### There was nothing, there was no paperwork 9 

### provided. There was nothing on scene and 10 

### their GON says everything is done verbally. 11 

### So, there is no documentation provided to us 12 

### to show what the flight plan was. 13 Q 

### Okay. And you had during the 14 

### investigative phase and part of your duties is 15 

### to interview witnesses, right? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And part of that would be 18 including interviewing Ron for information 19 respecting his flight plan, correct? 20 A 

### Not necessarily. 21 Q 

### Why not? 22 A 

### We don't have to interview just
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• 152 1 Ron and I was talking to Mr. Fox and Mr. 2 Quentin who were giving me the information. 3 Q Okay, and none of those 4 indivictuals were able to give you the 5 information specifically of what Ron's flight 6 plan was for Mr. Wolf and/or Mr. Didier for 7 this four legged flight, correct? 8 A All I had was verbal communication 9 was g1ven. 10 Q Right, but you were given the 11 information that the pilots involved in this 12 case were given verbal instruction as to the 13 flight plan as set forth by Ron? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Okay, but you don't know the 16 specifics of what Ron's flight plan was? 17 A No one provided that to me. 18 Q Okay, and yet so the information 19 that you used to put together this document, 20 A-9, came from documents from the best of your 21 ability that were generated by the pilots, 22 correct?
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• 153 1 A I don't know who generated the 2 paperwork. 3 Q Okay, and we've established that 4 the manifests, A-8, were filled out by the 5 pilots, right? 6 A Well, the one Didier signed saying 7 he filled it out, yes. 8 Q Okay, and I think you said in your 9 direct testimony that all of the documentation 10 on flight planning was from pilots and not 11 necessarily from Trans North, correct? 12 A No, I did not say that. 13 Q But as you sit here today, you 14 don't know what the flight plan was that was 15 constructed by Ron at Trans North prior to 16 this whole flight sequencebeginning, correct? 17 A In their general operations 18 manual, they give verbal approvals. So, I 19 don't know verbally what was said for the 20 flight plan. 21 Q So, just so I want to make sure 22 I'm clear on this so we have an answer on NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 154
1 this. As you sit here today, you do not know 2 what Ron's flight plan was for the Didier and 3 Wolf for the trip down to West Palm Beach and 4 back up to the Chicagoland area, correct? 5 MS
. DAUBARAS : Objection, Your 6 Honor, asked and answered. 7 MR. BORTH: She did not answer 8 that. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's getting 10 close, but I'll overrule it. 11 BY MR. BORTH: 12 Q Can you give me a yes or no on 13 that? 14 A No, there's no documentation. 15 Q I'm not asking if you have 16 documentation. I'm asking did you know? 17 A No, the company did not provide me 18 anything. 19 Q Okay, and you never interviewed 20 Mr. Schaberg for that information either, 21 correct? 22 A Not that I recall.
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• 155
1 Q 

### And you indicated that in Exhibit 2 A-9 or rather during, strike that. 3 

### In your direct testimony, you 4 indicated that you were aware that there was 5 

### a delay in the flight, correct? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### And the delay was from the flight 8 back from West Palm Beach to what was 9 consideredtobe Palwaukee as the destination, 10 right? 11 A 

### The delay was at West Palm Beach. 12 Q 

### Okay, and how did you learn about 13 that delay? 14 A 

### I don't recall. 15 Q 

### And did you inquire as to any 16 documentation from Ron or anyone else at Trans 17 North to determine whether or not that delay, 18 in fact, occurred or the reasons for that 19 delay? 20 A 

### It doesn't matter. 21 Q 

### I'm not asking you that. 22 A 

### No, I didn't ask them for what the
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• • 156
1 reason of the delay was. 2 Q Okay, and 1n the telephone 3 transcripts of your conversationwithMr. Wolf 4 and Mr. Blodgett, was that subject ever 5 brought up? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you know what the condition of 8 the patient was that they were transporting 9 from West Palm Beach to Palwaukee? 10 A No. 11 Q You indicated early in your direct 12 examination that there were parallel 13 investigations occurring and you said that 14 you were involved in the enforcement end of 15 the investigation, and the FAA in Washington 16 or their investigators were involved in a 17 separate investigation. Can you explain that 18 a little more? 19 A Sure. When the FAA gets called on 20 scene, the FTSB does their investigation to 21 find the cause of the accident. The FAA's 22 job, the accident investigation is to do the
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• 157
1 

### nine responsibilities and if there is a 2 violation, the same inspector can't do both. 3 So, they assign it to somebody different to do 4 

### the enforcement investigation. So, there's 5 

### three, 1n that case, there was three 6 investigations parallel going on at the same 7 time. 8 Q 

### Okay. So, there was an individual 9 from the FAA in Washington, D.C., the FAA 10 

### Office, who was doing certain investigation 11 

### responsibilities? 12 A 

### Um-hmm. 13 Q 

### There were the NTSB doing more of 14 

### a, I guess, accident reconstruction cause of 15 

### the accident type investigation, right? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And then, there was you who was 18 

### looking into the enforcement matters to 19 

### determine whether or not there was something, 20 some violation of an FAA or CFR? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### And you indicated in your direct
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1 

### testimonythat you understood that the patient 2 was late arriving to the aircraft in West Palm 3 Beach? 4 A 

### Yes. 5 Q 

### Okay, and on your Exhibit A-9 that 6 occurredsomewherebetweennight, accordingto 7 your Zulu time frame, some time between 1954 8 

### and 2242. Was that the delay we're talking 9 about? 10 A 

### Yes, prior to West Palm. Yes. 11 Q 

### Okay, and you testified that the 12 

### delay of the patient was something that was 13 not unforeseen? 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### Okay. So, is it your testimony 16 that the delay in the ambulance personnel 17 getting the patient to the aircraft in West 18 Palm Beach was something that was foreseeable 19 by Mr. Schaberg when he was filling out the 20 flight plan? 21 A 

### What I testified was that it 22 wasn't foreseen beyond their control. They
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• 159 1 couldn't foresee that the patient was going to 2 be late, but they could control if their 3 flight was to depart or not. 4 Q Okay. So, you would agree though 5 that this was a unforeseeable event, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q The late arrival of the patient? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you would agree also that the 10 condition of the patient would be something 11 that would be considered in whether or not to 12 continue on with the assignment, wouldn't it? 13 I mean, let me rephrase that. In this case, 14 the delay that occurred inWest Palm Beach was 15 due to a patient late to get to the plane, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And the condition of that patient 19 may be a factor in whether or not to continue 20 on with the flight or not, wouldn't it? 21 A As a pilot, I wouldn't, the 22 passenger or the patient wouldn't be a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 160 1 

### determination if the flight should go or not. 2 Q 

### Okay. In this instance, did you 3 know whether or not this was a critically ill 4 patient? 5 A 

### I don't know. I do not know. 6 Q 

### Okay. Would that be a factor that 7 wouldbe reasonably consideredby the pilot as 8 to whether or not he or she should continue on 9 with his flight assignment provided by the 10 certificate holder? 11 A 

### Are you asking me if a critical 12 

### patient should fly? 13 Q I'm 

### asking you whether or not the 14 pilot is reasonably considering the condition 15 of the patient in determining whether or not 16 he should continue on with the flight plan 17 that was designated by the certificate holder 18 from the beginning? 19 A 

### I don't think a pilot should worry 20 about their passengers to determine if they 21 

### should go on a f1ight. They should worry 22 

### about weather, time on duty, fuel, all that
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• 161
1 kind of stuff, not a passenger. 2 Q Okay. So, in this case, assuming 3 hypothetically that this patient was an 80 4 year old gentleman who was critically ill with 5 heart problems and was in need of intravenous 6 fluids and pain medications and was already 7 delayed three hours getting to the aircraft 8 that's something that you don't think 1s 9 reasonable to be considered by the pilot 1n 10 determining whether or not to continue on with 11 his journey north? 12 A My opinion if a patient who is 13 that critical should be staying on the ground 14 at a hospital, not in an airplane. 15 Q Okay, and is it your opinion that 16 the pilot has the authority to make that call? 17 A What call? 18 Q To determine whether or not it's 19 medically feasible to have the patient stay on 20 the ground or fly to the chosen proposed 21 destination? 22 A I don't think the patient should
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• 162 

### 1 determine if a flight should go or not 2 regardless of the condition of the patient. 3 Q 

### Okay. You're familiar with the, I 4 trust you're familiar with, strike that. 5 

### As to the decision to file the 6 complaint against Trans North, were you 7 involved in that decision? 8 A 

### Yes. 9 Q 

### Okay. Were you the one who 10 

### determined that the particular statute 11 involved here was violated in your opinion? 12 A 

### Can you rephrase that? I'm not 13 sure what you're asking me. 14 Q 

### Yes, that was a bad question. 15 Were the one who made the decision that Trans 16 North, the certificateholder, violated 14 CFR 17 135.267(d)? 18 A 

### Our procedure isn't that one 19 person makes the decision. 20 Q 

### Okay. Were you a part of that 21 decision making process? 22 A 

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• 163
1 Q Was there anyone else that had 2 more knowledge than you did in terms of the 3 investigation and in terms of the flight 4 planning done by the certificate holder 1n 5 this case that you know of at the FAA? 6 A Can you be more specific? 7 Q Sure. Was there anyone else, at 8 the FAA, that would have additional knowledge 9 to the knowledge that you gained from your 10 investigation into this incident and your 11 decision to look into a violation of 135.267? 12 A Is there anyone that has more 13 knowledge about 267 than me? 14 Q No. Is there anyone else at the 15 FAA that has more knowledge about the 16 investigation into the flight planning 17 procedures of the certificate holder in this 18 case other than you? 19 A I'm not sure what you're asking 20 me. I'm sorry. 21 Q Okay. Who at the FAA has superior 22 knowledge of the facts and circumstances that
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• 164
1 

### went in to creating the allegations of 2 violation of Section 135.267? 3 A 

### DuPage FSDO, regional office and 4 legal counsel. 5 Q 

### And did they do any investigation? 6 A 

### I don't know what their, I put a 7 report together. My management looks at it. 8 They send the report up to regional office. 9 Flight standards reviews it. They figure out, 10 they do their job. I'm not sure what all that 11 entails and then they give it to legal. Legal 12 does their job. I'm not sure of the details 13 of what they do to determine what they 14 determine. 15 Q 

### All right, but you haven't read 16 any documents, memoranda, notes, memos, 17 anything from any of that nature from the two 18 page FSDO that would indicate that they did 19 

### their own independent investigation or 20 questioned Trans North or certificate holder 21 as to the planning of these particular 22 flights?
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• 165 1 A 

### I wouldn't know. 2 Q 

### And this A-9, this document that 3 you created, this schematic, that was done 4 again from these documents and not from what 5 the Trans North certificate holder told you 6 about the time line for the flight? 7 

### MS
. DAUBARAS: Objection, Your 8 Honor, asked and answered. 9 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sustained. I 10 think we've heard that before. 11 BY MR. BORTH: 12 Q 

### Earlier in your testimony, you 13 indicated that this patient and the patient 14 being late was not an unforeseen event that 15 would trigger any exception to 135.267. Is 16 that right? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### In your opinion, what are the 19 exceptions that would allow a certificate 20 holder to continue a flight beyond the ten 21 hour rest period and the 24 hour look back 22 that we've been discussing?
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1 A 

### There are no exceptions to 2 135.267. The only exceptions are for flight 3 time, not the rest period time. 4 Q 

### Okay, and are you familiar with 5 any of the legal interpretations of 14 CFR 6 Section 135.267? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 

### MR. BORTH: Seven, Chuck? 9 

### MR. BARNETT: Respondent's 7. 10 

### MR. BORTH: No, is our Exhibit No. 11 7 . 

### 12 MR. BARNETT: Oh, yes, we are up 13 to seven, yes. 14 MR. BORTH: May I approach, Judge? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 16 

### MR. BORTH: I'm going to mark for 17 

### identification Respondent's Exhibit 7 and, 18 unfortunately, I only have three copies of 19 

### this. May I approach, Judge? 20 

### {Respondent's Exhibit No. 7 

### was 21 marked for identification.) 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes.
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• 167 1 MR. BORTH: Do you mind if I read 2 along? I don't have a copy for myself. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 4 BY MR. BORTH: 5 Q I'm showing you what's been marked 6 as Respondent Exhibit No. 7. This is a legal 7 interpretation letter from the Office of Chief 8 Counsel from the FAA dated November 13, 2012. 9 Is this the kind of document that you used in 10 the course of your investigation and 11 enforcement activities todetermine whether or 12 not a violation has occurred? 13 A A legal interpretation document? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. I'd like you to, if we can, 17 I'd like to read through this and question 18 number two, it indicates, and I've highlighted • 19 this, the flight crew is then scheduled to 20 start a duty assignment that is supposed to 21 begin at 0800 Zulu and end at 2100 Zulu. The 22 duty assignment consists of three flight
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• 168
1 segments each of which is scheduled to be 2 three hours long. 3 The first flight segment is 4 scheduled to depart at 930 Zulu. The second 5 segment is scheduled to depart at 1300 Zulu 6 and the final segment is scheduled to depart 7 at 1800 Zulu. Moving down, it says sub8 section 135.267(d) requires that anassignment 9 must provide for at least ten consecutive 10 hours of rest during the 24 hour period that 11 precedes the planned completion time of the 12 assignment. Do you see that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Is that your understanding of 15 135.267(d)? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. And then, it states further 18 in a previous interpretation, the FAA 19 emphasized that quote, the key to the 20 applicability of section 135.267(d) 1.s the 21 final phase and they have in italics planned 22 completion time of the assignment. Is that
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• 169 

### 1 your understanding? 2 A 

### That's what that says, yes. 3 Q 

### Okay. Is that your understanding 4 of the application of that rule? 5 A 

### Yes. 6 Q 

### In that interpretation and then 7 

### reading further and this is the second full 8 

### paragraph on page two of Exhibit R-7. 

### It 9 

### states, in that interpretation, the FAA 10 

### concluded that if a 

### crew member is 11 realistically scheduled to receive ten hours 12 of rest in a 24 hour period, then quote, if 13 the original planning is upset for reasons 14 beyond the control of the certificate holder,· 15 the flight may nevertheless be conducted even 16 though the crew duty time may extend beyond 14 17 hours in a 24 hour period. Is that what that 18 says? 19 A 

### That's what that says. 20 Q 

### Is that consistent with your 21 understanding of that rule? 22 A 

### No. There's other legal interps
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1 that say**diff~ie~t** so. 2 Q Okay, but tbis**~s** 3 A I know, I'm just saying there's 4 different ones. That's what this is saying, 5 yes. 6 Q And this is particularly, this is 7 a legal interpretation from the Office of 8 General Counsel from the FAA, Rebecca 9 MacPherson, right? 10 A Um-hmm. 11 Q She was in that. position for quite 12 a while, wasn't she? 13 .A I don't know. 14 Q Okay. It stateshere that the FAA 15 has previously stated that delays due to.air 16 traffic control, mecha.nical problems or 17 adverse weather could constitute circumstances 18 that are beyond the control of the certificate 19 holder. Is that your understanding of those 20 other interpretations? 21 In other words, delays due to air 22 traffic .control, mechanical problems, or**NEA~** R. GRQSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 Rf:!ODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 2 A That's what the piece of paper 3 says. 4 Q Okay, and in this case we get a 5 late arriving passenger, right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And then, in fact, this wasn't 8 just a late arriving passenger that was headed 9 to Buffalo for a business meeting, this was a 10 late arrivingpassengerwho is critically ill, 11 in need of medical care and on his way to 12 Palwaukee to get further care ln the 13 Chicagoland area, correct? 14 A I don't know how critical he was, 15 I don't know. 16 Q And you're familiar with the, if 17 you take a look at R-5, please? 18 A I don't have that. 19 Q That's this one. 20 A I don't have that up here. You 21 gave it to John when he was up here. 22 Q May I approach?
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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 2 BY MR. BORTH: 3 Q If you take a look at R-5, which 4 lS the, the 14-CFR Section 135.267, if you 5 look at it this allows for the extended daily 6 flight time limitations in the event unforseen 7 circumstances, right? 8 A Flight time limitations, yes. 9 Q And ln the event that the flight 10 time limitations are not able to be satisfied, 11 this particular section sets forth what the 12 pilot is supposed to do and what the planning, 13 certificate of owners is supposed to do in the 14 event the flight is, a crew member goes beyond 15 the rest period, right? 16 A This isn't in regards to the rest 17 period that we're talking about, this is in 18 regards tQ flight time. 19 Q Okay, doesn't it say here that in 20 the event, because of circumstances beyond the 21 control of the certificate holder, or flight 22 crew member, such as adverse weather
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1 

### conditions, that crew member must have a rest 2 

### period before beginning assignment or 3 accepting assignment for the next flight for 4 at least, in a day of different time frames, 5 right? 6 A 

### This is apples and oranges, this 7 is talking about flight time. There is not -- 8 D is talking about your rest time. 9 Q 

### Okay, and you don't think that 10 they equate? 11 A 

### No. 12 Q 

### Just so we're clear on the rest 13 time that Mr. Didier had prior to commencing 14 the November 28th flight that he flew down to 15 Florida the day before on the 27th, correct? 16 A 

### No. 17 Q 

### Okay, I'm sorry, when he was 18 stopped in Indiana how much rest time did he 19 have between the time of the flight to Indiana 20 and the flight that commenced the next 21 morning? 22 A 

### Flight to Indiana?
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1 Q Right, he flew to Indiana, he had 2 mechanical problems, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And then he stopped in Indiana? 5 A Yes. 6 Q In Charlottesville? 7 A No. 8 Q In Crawfordsville, I'm sorry, 9 Crawfordsville? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How much time did he .have to rest 12 before he had to fly again? 13 A According to the load manifest he, 14 at 2200 zero the next day, that's fourteen 15 hours of rest prior to starting that portion 16 of the trip. 17 Q Okay, thank you. That's all I 18 have. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect? 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q Ms. Boerman, did you ever see the 22 .flight plan from Trans North?
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• 179 1 A No. 2 Q That we've heard so much about? 3 Did you ever, did you receive any information 4 back from the letter that you sent to Mr. 5 Schaberg regarding the investigation when you 6 asked him for the information? Did you ever 7 get anything back? 8 A I think there was a letter from 9 the attorneys, the response to the LOL, you'd 10 have to look in there. 11 Q And what information was ln that 12 letter? 13 A I don't recall without having it. 14 Q All right, we'll see if we can 15 find it for you. 16 A Jeannette, that can't be it 17 because it has our grid on it. It would be a 18 letter from them to us. 19 Q Okay, all right, sorry. 20 MR. BORTH: Can I see it? 21 Counsel, you have to let me see it if you want 22 to use it. I don't have a problem I just need
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• 180
1 to see it. 2 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 3 Q I think I, okay, come on, come on, 4 just read it and see if it'·s all right. Let 5 the record reflect I'm showing the witness 6 what's been marked as Agency Exhibit A-16 for 7 identification. Do you recognize that 8 document? 9 (Agency Exhibit A-16 was marked 10 for identification.) 11 A Yes. 12 Q What is it? 13 A It is a letter from the attorneys 14 to me. 15 Q And what information did they 16 provide to you? 17 A They provide that they are the 18· attorneys for Trans North, and that it was 19 dispatched on the 28th, and according to the 20 dispatch requirements on Part 135, at the time 21 of dispatch the pilot in command should have 22 been able to complete the dispatched flight
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• 181 1 within duty dater limitations and with 2 sufficient fuel to comply with fuel reserves 3 requirement for the RFR. Any potential 4 deviation from the planned flights were made 5 without the express permission of knowledge of 6 Trans North Ltd. Trans North has fully 7 cooperated with the investigation from both 8 FAA and NTSB and remains willing to continue 9 to assist to the best of it's ability. Should 10 you require any additional, please contact 11 this office and we will happily assist you. 12 Q Is that all the information that 13 you received? 14 A I think so. 15 Q And once you sent a letter of 16 investigation to them didyou receive anything 17 else do you recall? 18 A If I did it would be 1n that 19 package. I don't recall talking 20 Q Okay, thank you. 21 MR. BORTH: I don't believe either 22 15 or 16
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1 

### MS
. DAUBARAS : I ask that the 2 exhibit be admitted into evidence, please, 3 Agency Exhibit A-16. 4 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 5 

### MR. BORTH: No objection. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency Exhibit 16 7 is received in evidence as Exhibit A-16. 8 

### (Agency Exhibit A-16 was received 9 into evidence.) 10 MS
. DAUBARAS : Let the record 11 reflect I,m requesting the document to be 12 marked for identification as A-17. 13 

### (Agency Exhibit A-17 was marked 14 

### for identification.) 15 MR. BORTH: Where is A715? 16 MS
. DAUBARAS : Was that thrown 17 out? 18 

### MR. BARNETT: Your Honor, my 19 record shows that A-15 was airman record 20 information of Andrew Wolf and it was not 21 admitted. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is it

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1 

### MR. BARNETT: I thought we were up 2 to A-16. 3 THE 

### WITNESS: I'm sorry, it's up 4 here. 5 BY MS
. DAUBARAS: 6 Q 

### Let the record reflect that I'm 7 showing the witness what's been marked for 8 identification as Agency Exhibit 17. Do you 9 recognize the document? 10 A 

### Yes. 11 Q 

### And what is that? 12 A 

### This is the response letter to the 13 letter of investigation I sent Trans North. 14 Q 

### Okay, and what information did 15 they give you? 16 MR. BORTH: Can I ask you to, I'm 17 sorry, yes, can I get a copy of this, counsel? 18 I apologize. 19 

### MS. DAUBARAS: That's okay, you 20 want a copy. What exhibit was it, let me see 21 

### 22 MR. BORTH: It's Exhibit 29.
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### 1 MS. DAUBARAS: 29, okay, let me 2 see if I have extra copies here. 3 

### MR. BORTH: Thank you. 4 

### BY MS. DAUBARAS: 5 Q 

### Did you have an opportunity to 6 

### review that, and does that give you any flight 7 

### plan information? 8 A 

### No. 9 Q 

### What does it tell you? 10 A 

### It tells me Trans North utilizes 11 their field policy primarily to insure that 12 the quality of the field used is appropriate 13 

### for safe operations. However, it J.s the 14 policies and procedures of Trans North 15 Aviation to strictly comply with the Federal 16 Aviation regulations, and any deviation, 17 should one occur by one of it's pilots, is 18 addressedimmediately. Ourresearchindicates 19 William Didier received counseling from Trans 20 North Aviation chief pilot regarding fuel 21 management, and at no time did it appear that 22 Mr. Didier deviated from Federal Aviation
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1 

### regulations. However, out of an abundance of 2 caution our Chief Pilot reviewed proper filed 3 

### management procedures with Mr. Didier. And 4 then it is their standard Trans North will 5 fully,cooperate with the investigation. 6 Q 

### However there's not any 7 information on the 8 A 

### Forward as to the PIC is. 9 Q 

### Forward as to the PIC's? 10 A 

### Mm-hmm. 11 Q 

### Thank you. I ask that

-- 12 A 

### Two pages. 13 Q 

### Was there two pages? 14 A 

### I didn't read the second page. 15 

### MR. BORTH: The second page is the 16 signature. 17 

### THE WITNESS: Okay, I just want to 18 make sure there's those two pages. 19 

### MS. DAUBARAS: All right, Agency 20 17. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 22 MS
. DAUBARAS : At this time I
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1 request that A-17 be admitted into evidence 2 and I

-- 3 JUDGE GOODWIN:· Any objection to 4 A-17? 5 MR. BORTH: No objection. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-17 for 7 identification is received into evidence as A8 17. 9 (Agency Exhibit A-17 was received 10 into evidence.) 11 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 12 Q Why was that letter sent to you?
. 13 A It was a response to my letter of 14 investigation. 15 Q So, Mr. Schaberg had an 16 opportunity at that time to present you with 17 any other information, is that correct? 18 A Yes, yes.· 19 Q And yet you still didn't get any 20 flight plan information? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And with regard to the, to the
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1 interpretation/ I think it 1 S R? 2 A 

### R-6 lS 3 MR. BORTH: R-7. 4 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 5 Q Do you have a copy of that 6 interpretation? 7 A No. 8 Q We shared it. That 1 s okay/ she 1 S 9 got one. 10 MR. BORTH: Oh 1 sorry about that. 11 MS. DAUBARAS: If there is a delay 12 what do you believe that the director of 13 operation should do 1 if anything? 14 MR. BORTH: Object to foundation. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Rephrase the 16 question/ it 1 s a fairly broad question. 17 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 18 Q What procedures should a director 19 of operations perform if a flight plan is not 20 followed and**~here** is a delay and has to be 21 changed? 22 MR. BORTH: Same objection.
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• 188 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: The person who has 3 operation control of the flight, in this case 4 the director of operations, should follow the 5 procedures in their GON and at A008 to review 6 and insure that flight and duty times are not 7 exceeded before the flight departs. 8 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 9 Q And do·you believe that that was 10 done in this case? 11 A No. 12 Q Had you been called and asked 13 advice about this flight what would you have 14 said, with all the information that you were 15 given, all the information regarding the 16 patient that we don't know for sure is the 17 case because we have no proof as to what the 18 condition of the patient was, but what would 19 you have advised when there had been this type 20 of delay? 21 MR. BORTH: I'll object to an 22 1mproper, hypothetical and calls for
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### speculation. 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: 

### Well, that's, 3 that's a -- I'll sustain the objection. And 4 part of it is I'm not interested in what her 5 response is, my question is have theyviolated 6 the regulations. 7 BY MS
. DAUBARAS: 8 Q 

### Do you believe that you, do you 9 

### believe that Mr. Schaberg violated the 10 

### regulations when this flight was allowed to 11 

### take off from the ground? 12 

### A Yes. 13 Q 

### And why? 14 A 

### Because legal to start 1s not 15 

### legal to finish a flight. And based on my 16 

### thirteen years of doing flight and duty and 20 17 

### years of flying that, you 18 

### know, if you're

-- down, you can prevent it 19 

### from departing. And no matter what it is, if 20 you cannot, the planned flight is three hours 21 

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• 190 1 cannot depart. 2 Q Thank you, I have nothing further. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any recross based 4 on the questions asked? 5 RECROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BORTH: 7 Q Yes. First of all let me ask you 8 a few questions about R-6, the letter of 9 investigation, and in conjunction with A-17, 10 the response letter, if you could get those 11 out. 12 A I don't have A-17. 13 Q Is that A-17? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Okay, just so we're clear on this, 16 R-6, that was your letter of investigation, 17 correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And there's nothing in here that 20 indicates that you were looking for 21 information about the flight planning of the 22 certificate holder, is there?
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• 191 1 A 

### No, just the standard thing that 2 we appreciate any evidence, the statements 3 that might take place regarding this matter, 4 for the whole accident, yeah. 5 Q 

### All right, but specifically you 6 

### asked for who is the pilot in command for 7 these following flights, and also a detailed 8 

### description on the, how theyutilized the fuel 9 

### policy and any records of disciplinary action 10 or counseling of both pilots, correct? 11 A 

### Right, I 

### asked about flight 12 planning Mr. Fox through e-mails. 13 Q 

### But the letter of investigation, 14 this lS 

### an official letter written by the FAA 15 to Trans North as a letter of investigation 16 

### requesting documents and requesting 17 information, correct? 18 A 

### Correct. 19 Q 

### And in the response to that Trans 20 North provided you with what's marked as 21 Exhibit A-17, right? 22 A 

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1 Q And that's, that lays out 2 specifically the pilots in command for the 3 four flights that you delineate don't they? 4 First one, November 28th shows Andrew Wolf, 5 November 28th shows Andrew Wolf, November 6 28th, William Didier, and November 28th 7 William Didier, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So, that's part of the information 10 that you requested? 11 A Yes. 12 Q They complied with that request? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay, and then the other thing is 15 the fuel policy that's set forth in the second 16 full paragraph of this response letter where 17 it says what the fuel policy is, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And also states that as to the, 20 the request for disciplinary action and 21 counseling pilots it states that Mr. Didier 22 was counseledabout fuel managementprocedures
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1 and so forth, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And we already looked at his pilot 4 certificate which indicates that he's had no 5 incidents or accidents, right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay, so there wouldn't really be 8 a reason, would there, for Ron or Trans North 9 Aviation to respond to your letter with 10 information you never asked for, would there? 11 A Not this letter. 12 Q Okay, and there's no other letter 13 that we have that ever requested any flight 14 information from Trans North in terms of the 15 flight planning of the certificate holder, is 16 there? 17 A No, because I just did interviews 18 with Quentin and Mr. Fox and asked them about 19 it. 20 Q I just want to be clear that Trans 21 North responded to whatever investigation 22 letter, responded in full to the requests that
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• 194 

### 1 you had gave them, right? 2 A 

### Yes, and I want to make it clear 3 that when their general operation manual says 4 they verbally give stuff, I can't ask for 5 documents that they don't have, you know, 6 accepted or approved that they use to show a 7 flight plan. And they don't have procedures 8 for that, they don't have documents, so why 9 would I ask for documents that they don't 10 

### have. When they have their chief pilot and 11 assistant chief pilot tellingme theyverbally 12 

### give the assignments. 13 Q 

### Okay, in light of that fact you 14 

### knew that when you were doing your 15 investigation, right? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### And you knew that they do it by 18 verbal, they do a verbal, Ron tells his pilots 19 verbally what their flight plan would be? 20 A 

### Their, yes. 21 Q 

### Their assignment? 22 A 

### Yes.
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1 Q 

### And since you knew that you knew 2 that the only way to get that information 3 would be for you to interview him directly, 4 

### wouldn 1 

### t it? 5 A 

### Well, he didn't give the 6 

### assignment, Quentin Levitte gave the 7 assignment to Mr. Wolf. 8 Q 

### Do you have any documentation that 9 indicates that that's the fact? 10 A 

### Quentin Levitte's statement, he 11 stated that he gave the assignment to Mr. 12 Wolf, and he has the authority because Ron can 13 delegate it to him. 14 Q 

### Okay, who made the assignment? 15 A 

### I don't know. 16 Q 

### That's all I have, Judge. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 18 of this witness? 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, Your Honor. 20 Let the reflect that I 1

### m showing the witness 21 a copy of this

-- 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just be sure to
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1 show it to counsel. 2 MS
. DAUBARAS : Let the record 3 reflect that I'm showing the witness what's 4 been marked as Agency Exhibit A-17. Would you 5 take a moment to review that, please? 6 MR. BORTH: This is 18, counsel? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's what I've 8 got. 9 (Agency Exhibit A-18 was marked 10 for identification.) 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 13 Q Would you tell me what that 14 document is? 15 A This document is a record of 16 telephone conversation between me and Mr. 17 Quentin Levitte. 18 Q And what does it reflect? 19 A It reflects that Mr. Levitte 20 stated that Mr. Wolf was assigned as a pilot 21 command for the Part 91 flight on November 22 28th, 2011. There was no written
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1 documentation of assignment, just verbal. 2 Normal companyprocedures for assignments come 3 from a phone call by Ron, the director of 4 operations, followed by itinerary for the 5 flight, the pilot texts or calls Ron before 6 take off. Then after landing the pilot picks 7 fuel stops based on location and place, and if 8 there is a question they phone Ron. 9 Q Thank you. I'd like to admit 10 Agency Exhibit 17 into the record. 11 MR. BORTH: No objection. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: 18 for 13 identification is received into evidence as 14 Agency 18. 15 (Agency Exhibit 18 was received 16 into evidence.) 17 MR. DAUBARAS : I have nothing 18 further. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you 20 RECROSS EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. BORTH: 22 Q This document doesn't state that
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•• 198 1 

### Mr. Levitte was the one who assigned the 2 flight, does it? 3 A 

### He stated that Mr. Wolf was 4 assigned the, for the PLC. I actually recall 5 when I asked him who verbally gave it, Mr. 6 Levitte said I assigned it to him, I verbally 7 gave it to him. 8 Q 

### But you failed to put that in your 9 10 A 

### Correct. 11 Q 

### Okay, and it says here that there 12 

### is no, 1n the last full paragraph here it says 13 

### there's no written documentation of the 14 

### assignment, just verbal. Normal company 15 

### procedures for assignments come from a phone 16 

### call by 

### who? 17 A 

### Ron Schaberg. 18 Q 

### Okay, director of operations, so 19 

### the assignments come from a phone call from, 20 from Ron, right? 21 

### A Mm-hmm. 22 Q 

### And the pilot texts or calls Ron
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1 before take off, and then after landing then 2 the pilot takes fuel stops based on location 3 and price, and if there's any question they 4 phone Ron? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Because he's the director of 7 operations and he's the one who's scheduled 8 the flight, correct? 9 A he is the director of 10 operations. 11 Q Judge, at this time we'd like to 12 admit the, I'm finished with my inquiry, 13 Respondent's Exhibits Nos. R-5, R-6 and R-7. 14 R-5 is the, I think it has already been 15 admitted. 16 A Well, I have good ones, I don't 17 know if that matters. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: So that was six 19 and seven. 20 MR. BORTH: Six and seven we'd 21 move to admit then at this time. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection?
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1 MS. DAUBARAS: Our objection, I 2 object to R-7, because I don't believe that 3 that is the most up to date information on 4 that particular issue. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: No objection as to 6 6? 7 MS. DAUBARAS: Seven. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: But no objection 9 as to 6? 10 MS. DAUBARAS: No. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 7, for 12 identification, is a letter that's purported 13 to be dated November 13th, 2012 from Rebecca 14 MacPherson, who at the time was Assistant 15 Chief Counsel for regulations to Jason Kidd 16 stemming legal interpretations of 14CFR Part 17 135. It appears to touch on things that are 18 integral to the case. I think it would be 19 worthwhile to insure that this is the current 20 copy before we admit it. I don't whether it 21 would be more appropriate for the Court to 22 forward this or to have, to counsel. I think
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1 

### it's important we get this clarified because 2 it goes to the crux of the case. And if, if 3 the FAA counsel is correct that it is a 4 

### different iteration, we need to know that. 5 

### So, you're excused. You're 6 admonished not to discuss your testimony with 7 

### anybody prior to conclusion. You can step 8 down. I would oblige you to do so before they 9 

### gear up another question. And I'11 do 10 

### whatever the two of you want to do. I can 11 

### send an inquiry, or we could do it jointly, or 12 

### I don't care. Why don't we do this, it's, do 13 you have any additional witnesses for the 14 agency? 15 

### MS. DAUBARAS: No. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, at this 17 point would you be resting then? 18 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, that gives 20 us a good time;to take a break. Why don't you 21 

### think about how you want to handle this and if 22 you can't figure out what to do at the end of
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• 202
1 the hearing and you want some more time to 2 think about it, let me know. 3 MS. DAUBARAS: All right. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Because clearly, I 5 mean Chevron's just been reiterated, as I 6 understand and the agency is an authority on 7 interpretation on some regulations. So I 8 think it's incumbent upon the two of you. But 9 if you want me to author the letter it's fine 10 with me. As you know I'm here so I might as 11 well do something
. 12 MR. BORTH: I'm sorry, Judge, 13 author a letter to whom? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, to Ms. 15 MacPherson to get, I'm required to interpret 16 the regulations and I have to interpret the 17 regulations in accordance with, and according 18 to Chevron the agency's own interpretation of 19 the regulations. Well, I'm not sure how much 20 sense it's, for me to issue an opinion based 21 on Respondent's 7 if we find out subsequently 22 that it's the wrong iteration and it's not the
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1 one you think it is, and it's not the one she 2 thinks it lS. 3 MR. BORTH: Well, our research 4 uncovered that as being really the only one 5 that's on all fours with respect to 135267D. 6 There's a number, a vast number of 7 interpretations that parrot that, and if you 8 look at that the, the sections I read are 9 citing earlier interpretations. And I'm 10 admitting it as evidence of the FAA's policy. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if it's 12 going to be legal argument I would, well you 13 can move it into evidence but I'm going to 14 research that during my opinion ruling. So, 15 either way I think it will get covered. So 16 why don't we take a 15 minute recess, we'll 17 re-adjourn at 25 of, and then we'll go until 18 we're concluded. 19 MR. BORTH: I'll respond to one 20 thing, if I may Judge, for the record, that 21 also my understanding is that letter comes out 22 about a year and few, a year and a couple
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1 weeks prior to this incident, I'm sorry after 2 this incident, and I think it should be, it 3 seems to be that that's the FAA policy and 4 their interpretation. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, but then you 6 could argue that it came out after the 7 incident when they did the, may not be the 8 applicable law. So, you know, the other thing 9 1s consider this, it's as much a legal 10 argument as anything else. This might be a 11 good issue, if the two of you want, to take 12 your time and brief. We don't have to put 13 this down on a firm schedule, because if 14 there's some ambiguity in this, this 1s what 15 I'm paid to sort out, something to review by

- 16 17 MR. BORTH: Well, I don't think 18 there's any ambiguity and I

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1 certainly issue an opinion, but I even noticed 2 that

-- has been very shy in telling me when 3 I'm wrong, that's like with my-- decisions. 4 Why don't we take a 15 minute break until 5 about 20 of three. 6 MR. BORTH: Thank you. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think what I'm 8 going to do with Exhibit Respondent's 7, the 9 court normally takes judicial notice of the 10 official document, what I'm going to do is 11 keep that exhibit, use that as the starting 12 point for my research and for instance the FAA 13 always asks me to take judicial notice, I tell 14 them if it's judicial notice you don't have to 15 do, or a motion, but I understand why they do 16 it. But I would do the same thing here. 17 We' 11 research it and let you know the benefit 18 of our research. 19 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: And if I'm wrong 21 one o.f you can point out the error of my ways. 22 MS. DAUBARAS: Well, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### 1 MR. BORTH: I don't think she 2 will. 3 (Off the record.) 4 

### MR. BORTH: May I call my first 5 witness. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 7 

### MR. BORTH: Ronald Schaberg. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please raise your 9 right hand. 10 Whereupon, 11 RONALD SCHAB-ERG 12 

### was called as a witness and, after being first 13 duly sworn, was examined and testified, as 14 follows: 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 16 State your name for the record and spell your 17 first and last. name. 18 

### THE WITNESS: Ronald James 19 Schaberg, it's S-c-h-a-b-e-r-g. 20 

### MR. BORTH: May I approach, Judge? 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
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• 207 1 

### BY MR. BORTH: 2 Q 

### Good afternoon, Mr. Schaberg. Can 3 you tell us what your, what's your profession? 4 A 

### Currently owner and President of 5 

### Trans North Aviation, and it's sister company 6 

### called Travel Care International. 7 Q 

### What's Travel Care? 8 

### A It's a medical side of Trans North 9 

### Aviation. We conduct fixed wing air ambulance 10 

### transportation throughNorthAmerica, Canada, 11 

### transporting patients and family members
. 12 Q 

### Okay, and that's a part of Trans 13 

### North? 14 A 

### Yeah, Trans North is the 15 certificate holder and Travel Care is the 16 marketing side of, of the companies. 17 Q 

### What percentage of your, of your 18 business is in the flight, the care? 19 A 

### Air ambulance is probably over 90 20 percent of our work. 21 Q 

### How long have you been ln 22 

### business?
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1 A 

### 33 years. 2 Q 

### How long have you been doing the 3 air ambulance aspect? 4 A 

### 31 years. 5 Q 

### And you are familiar with why 6 we're here? 7 A 

### Yes, sir. 8 Q 

### And could you tell us about, first 9 of all tell us about Bill Didier, was he one 10 of your pilots? 11 A 

### Bill was hired on probably, 12 

### estimate probably about eight months before 13 the accident. Ken Fox, our chief pilot, 14 interviewedBill, hiredBill, trainedBill and 15 checked Bill for the capacity as PIC for Trans 16 NorthAviation in a Piper Chieftain and Cessna 17 340 Series. 18 Q 

### Okay, and how many, at the time of 19 this incident how many, how many pilots did 20 you have employed? 21 A 

### Including myself and Ken it would 22 

### be five of us. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 209 1 Q And while we get, before we get 2 into it further, are you a certificatedpilot? 3 A I am. 4 Q What do you hold? 5 A Airline transport pilot, single 6 and multi-engine land. I have approximately 7 18,600 hours of flying time. 8 Q Okay, and at the time of this 9 incident how many aircraft did Trans North own 10 or have 11 A We owned three and we leased two. 12 Q And the aircraft that crashed, 13 what type of aircraft was that? 14 A It was a Piper Chieftain and it 15 was owned by Trans North Aviation. 16 Q And let me just, I'm going to get 17 right to it here as to, were you the, can you 18 tell us who it was who approved the flight 19 plan for the trip to West Palm Beach in 20 November, November 27 and 28 of 2011? 21 A I did the initial flight planning 22 for the flight, for the assignment.
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• 210 1 Q Okay and how I can you tell us 2 how/ how it 1s you went about making your 3 plan? Well/ strike that 1 how is it that you 4 would engage/ or who engaged you to 1 to have 5 this flight

-- 6 A On November 25th 1 it looks to have 7 been a Friday of 2011 1 I received a call from 8 Intensive Air Ambulance/ which is a broker in 9 the state of Florida/ brokers for ambulance 10 work. So they requested a quote from me from 11 West Palm Beach to Chicago and it was on 12 Friday/ November 25th. And then on Saturday 13 the 26th 1 because there was a possibility of 14 a flight I 1 I had reached out to Andrew Wolf 15 and engaged him and said there/sa possibility 16 of a flight and would he be available. We 17 didn 1t get confirmation of the trip until 18 Sunday morning 1 and around 9 a.m. I received 19 a call from Intensive Air Ambulance regarding 20 the West Palm Beach quote 1 and they were 21 interested in proceeding with the booking. 22 Q Okay.
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• 211 1 A So I got off the phone with 2 Intensive Air Ambulance and then proceeded to 3 do my, take a look at pilot situation, 4 weather, distance of the flight, possible fuel 5 stops, and just made sure we were ready to 6 accept the trip from Intensive and then 7 schedule the crew. 8 Q Okay, and then, so this is I guess 9 preliminary research, if you will 10 A Sunday morning? 11 Q Would you make sure you wait until 12 I ask, finish my question before you answer? 13 I know you're anticipating it, but for the 14 court reporter and for the transcript, okay. 15 So, in anticipation of this flight you checked 16 to see if you had the pilots and aircraft and 17 so forth to make that trip? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And how was it that you went about 20 doing that? Can you tell us the step by step 21 process you used to engage and make sure you 22 had the appropriate pilots with rest time and
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• 212 

### 1 so forth? 2 A 

### Bill Didier was our PIC that was 3 

### on cal·l that weekend. I'm just going by 4 memory, but I don't believe Bill had flown a 5 trip in the preceding five to seven days, so 6 he was rested and available for the mission. 7 I would go on to flightplan.com and do what 8 they call a quick review or quick info tab 9 where I would put the departure airport, 10 Oshkosh in this particular case, down to Palm 11 Beach. I. just do a straight line flight, and 12 

### it gives you a quick review of what the flight 13 time would be in a worst wind condition, 14 average wind condition, no wind condition, et 15 cetera, and I used the worst wind condition to 16 arrive at a ball park of how long it would 17 take to conduct the flight. And with the fuel 18 stop in the Cessna 340 it's about six hours. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, how 20 many? 21 

### THE WITNESS: About six hours. 22 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay.
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• 213
1 BY MR. BORTH: 2 Q 

### And how long have you used, is 

### 3 this a software program? 4 A 

### Flightplan.com is an internet 5 based flight planning program. You can take 6 a look at weather, you can take a look at your 7 weight andbalance, you can look at forecasts, 8 you can look at alternate airports, and I 9 believe it's listed in our op specs as a legal 10 source of flight planning. 11 Q 

### Okay, and how long have you been 12 using that for people that are -- 13 A 

### I'd be estimating, at least three 14 years. 15 Q 

### And you were using it prior to 16 2011? 17 A 

### Yes. 18 Q 

### And were you familiar with that, 19 did it ever give you any problems or did it 20 ever misdirect you within terms of flight 21 times or weather conditions that were 22 

### significant?
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• 214 

### 1 A 

### No, it's, again it's a guide, 2 we're using it the day, typically the day of 3 the flight or the day before the flight, so 4 it's just a, a window. 5 Q 

### And let me ask you a little bit 6 about your custom and practice with respect 7 to, your custom and practice back in November 8 2011 with respect to once a plan is made what 9 your, how you communicate that to the pilots 10 and make sure that they understand the plan? 11 A 

### In this particular case with Bill 12 I would have called him, and then we would 13 

### have exchanged some texts also. But the 14 initial call would say, hey Bill, that trip to 15 Florida confirmed, take a look at the weather, 16 I've done a preliminary look at, and let's 17 talk about some possible fuel stops and, and 18 get him engaged in preparing for the flight. 19 And then my second call would be the flight 20 medic. 21 Q 

### And in this case when you planned 22 this flight for Bill initially did the flight
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• 215
1 

### software, flightplan.com, didthat indicateto 2 you that he would have had a sufficient rest 3 to engage in this flight, have the ten hours 4 

### in 24? 5 A 

### Flightplan.com would not give us 6 that information, we would have to look at our 7 internal manifests and our duty log to see 8 that the pilot was available and had adequate 9 

### rest. And so we would use our own internal 10 duty flight log to review that. 11 Q 

### Okay, and did you do that in this 12 case? 13 A 

### Yes, I did. 14 Q 

### What did you discover in terms of 15 Mr. Didier's availability pursuant to this? 16 A 

### He had not flown, again I'm just 17 going by memory, but he had not flown a trip, 18 a 135 or a 91 trip or any other commercial 19 flying, in at least five to seven days prior 20 to the flight. 21 Q 

### And why don't you tell us what 22 was, can you explain to us what the plan was, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 216
1 

### that iriitial plan for Mr. Didier or Mr. Wolf, 2 or whoever was involved in that flight? Do 3 you need any documents to refresh your 4 

### recollection? -If you want, let me show you 5 

### this Exhibit 8. 

### I'm marking for 6 identification Respondent 8. May I approach, 7 Judge? Can I tell us, I'm showing you what's 8 marked as Respondent's No. 8, can you tell us 9 what this is? 10 

### (Respondent's Exhibit 8 was marked 11 

### for identification.) 12 A 

### This is what the FAA had given us 13 as their exhibit, and what I've done in my 14 simple brain is I've gotten it in Zulu times, 15 I've gone back to Central Standard Time just 16 to help me visualize it and make sense of it, 17 of the manifest times and the flight times. 18 So, I went ahead and just wrote in pen where 19 I could all the times in Central Time. And it 20 helps me match those times up with the 21 manifest which are also for**~he** 

### most part in 22 Central Time. And got away from the Zulu
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• 217
1 

### because we were dealing with two different 2 time zones and it gets confusing. 3 Q 

### Okay, did you, these are the times 4 that were for actual flight times and actual 5**depa~ture** 

### and arrival times, correct? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### Are these the same as the plan 8 that you created? 9 A 

### No. 10 Q 

### Okay, and let me show you, before 11 we get into particulars I want to go through 12 

### your, the, what the flightplan.com shows. 13 

### MS. DAUBARAS: For clarification, 14 was this the original planbefore the aircraft 15 had the malfunction? 16 

### THE WITNESS: Yes

-- 17 BY MR. BORTH: 18 Q 

### Let me show you what I've marked 19 as Exhibit No. 1. Can you tell us what that 20 is? 21 

### (Respondent's Exhibit R-1 was 22 marked for identification.)
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• 218
1 A This is the, this would have been 2 Bill's initial flight assignment to position 3 to Florida, pick up the patient and come back 4 the next day. 5 Q Okay, and what, when you created 6 your flight plan is this, was this the· same 7 information contained on Exhibit R-1 as was 8 seen on the flight plan screen when you 9 created the plan for this flight? 10 A It will change a little bit, but 11 for the most part this is, this would be a 12 sample of that plan. 13 Q Okay, and the flightplan.com 14 informationthat you receivedwhenyou created 15 your initial plan, did you get any printouts 16 of that or did you provide any paperwork to 17 Mr. Didier or anyone else? 18 A I did not. 19 Q As to this exhibit, R-1, does that 20 accurately state the flight plan that you 21 provided to Mr. Didier? 22 A Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 219
1 Q Okay, why don't we go through that 2 a little bit and tell us, tell us what, tell 3 us what the parameters and time frames were? 4 MS. DAUBARAS: Objection. This 5 lS, objection, lS this the flight plan or is 6 this a recreation of the flight plan? 7 THE WITNESS: It's a recreation. 8 BY MR. BORTH: 9 Q This is a recreation of the flight 10 plan, is that correct? 11 A Yes, but we could do one right now 12 and it would be close to this. 13 Q Okay, thank you. Tell us what 14 your flight plan was? 15 A So, we initially had the call from 16 Intensive Air Ambulance around 9 a.m. in the 17 morning, Central Time, on the 27th of November 18 2011. I made a call to Bill, I sent some 19 texts to Bill, contacted the flight medic, 20 went on to flightplan.com, looked at the quick 21 view of the flight to see if it was within 22 safe parameters. Bill went on duty at 10 a.m.
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• 220
1 

### according to the assignment, took off at 2 approximately eleven. 3 Q 

### Wait, before we head in to what 4 you actually did I want to know what was your 5 plan? What was the plan for his, pursuant to 6 what's laid out in Exhibit R-1 which you say 7 1s the flight plan? 8 A 

### My plan was to have Bill depart 9 • Oshkosh, Wisconsin at approximately 10:30 in 10 the morning, fly to Rome, Georgia for fuel, to 11 his fuel stop, and then continue on to, 12 continue on to West Palm Beach, arriving at 13 West Palm Beach at approximately 5 p.m. 14 Central Standard Time, and off duty at 15 approximately 17:30 or 5:30, 17:30 Central 16 Time off duty. 17 Q 

### Okay, then what? 18 A 

### Then we have this, where you go to 19 the rest period, and he'd resume the flight, 20 start his flight with the patient the next day 21 at 11:30 a.m. Eastern Time, 10:30 Central, on 22 duty at approximately 9:30 a.m. Central Time.
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• 221 

### 1 Q 

### When you say on duty, what do you 2 mean? 3 A 

### Usually the pilots will show at 4 the airport about an hour before departure 5 time to file flight plans and check weather 6 and order fuel, and just get ready for the 7 patient when the patient arrives. 8 Q 

### And based on that flight plan that 9 you designed for Mr. Didier, and by the way 10 you mentioned that there was someone on the 11 flight, was it Mr. Blodgett? 12 A 

### Yes, Maynard Blodgett. 13 Q 

### Okay, so was the initial flight 14 that was set forth in R-1, is that Mr. Didier 15 and Mr. Blodgett or are there other people 16 involved? 17 A 

### Just Mr. Didier and Mr. Blodgett. 18 Q 

### Okay, and then based on that 19 initial plan, can you tell us would that, in 20 your view, satisfy the requirements for rest 21 time duty day? 22 A 

### Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 222
1 Q 

### How is that? 2 A 

### He would have gone on duty around 3 

### 9:30 a.m. Central time. He would have gone 4 off duty at approximately 5 p.rn. Central Time. 5 He would have gone back on duty, or scheduled 6 to go back on duty at approximately 9:30 in 7 the morning Central Time the day of the 8 

### flight, which would have been Sunday. I'm 9 sorry, Sunday, Monday I'm sorry, Monday. 10 Q 

### The 28th? 11 A 

### The 28th. 12 Q 

### Okay, 9:30 he'd be on duty? 13 A 

### On duty, Central Time, he went off 14 duty at 6 p.m. so that would have been twelve 15 and-a-half hours of rest prior to the new 16 assignment. 17 Q 

### Okay, and in your estimation was 18 that consistent with 14-CFR Section 135.267D? 19 A 

### Yes. 20 Q 

### And can you tell us how, how did 21 that flight progress? 22 A 

### Not too well. Bill took off with
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• 223
1 

### Maynard from Oshkosh and had a mechanical 2 problem over Indiana and elected to land. I, 3 I received the phone call from Ken Fox, our 4 

### chief pilot, that there was a mechanical. 5 Q 

### All right, and that was an 6 

### altitude indicator? 7 A 

### Yes. 8 Q 

### Okay, so what happened then? 9 A 

### We contacted, I contacted our 10 director of maintenance, Jim, and asked if we 11 

### had any spares on the shelf. And he was 12 checking that out, and meanwhile I also asked 13 Bill to please see if there was a local 14 mechanic on the field should we have the part, 15 somebody to install it. And this all happened 16 at approximately, approximately 1:30 Central 17 Time is when he landed--in, in Crawfordsville. 18 Q 

### And is that a big airport, is that 19 a metropolitan area? 20 A 

### It's just a small, small municipal 21 airport. 22 Q 

### All right, and when that occurred
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• 224 1 did you change your flight plan in any way for 2 Mr. Didier or for other pilots? 3 A I did. 4 Q Let me show you what we marked as 5 Number 2 for identification. I'm showing 6 what's marked as Exhibit R-2. Can you tell us 7 what this is? 8 A I had to arrive at a Plan B 9 because I had an airplane that was broken 1n 10 Indiana. I heard back from my director of 11 maintenance, Jim Keenan, we did not have a 12 spare altitude indicator ·on the shelf. So I 13 gave Bill a call, he went off duty at 4 p.m. 14 and I discussed with him that my plan was to 15 bring our additional aircraft down, November 16 59773, Piper Chieftain, and I would have 17 Quentin fly it down with Andrew Wolf, and that 18 they would proceed out. You know, at that 19 time there was discussion with Quentin about 20 weather and other issues, but basically Bill 21 and Andrew would fly out in the morning with 22 the other aircraft.
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• 225 

### 1 Q 

### Okay, so would you say,it would be 2 Mr. Wolf and Mr. Didier would fly out with 3 that, with the new aircraft from Indiana and 4 head to Palm Beach, West Palm Beach? 5 A 

### Correct, right, the assignment was 6 to have Andrew Wolf be the PIC on the part 91 7 legs to Florida, and then Bill would take over 8 the flight from Florida, the 135 legs back up 9 to Chicago. 10 Q 

### Okay, and the part 91, can you 11 explain to us what

-- 12 A 

### No, no passengers on board, you 13 position the aircraft to a location, you're 14 not being compensa.tedbypayingpassengers, so 15 just, it's just employees on board the 16 airplane. 17 Q 

### Okay, all right, and then when you 18 instituted Plan B how much rest time did Mr.**~9** 

### Didier have prior to engaging in the Plan B? 20 A 

### Fourteen hours. 21 Q 

### And you said he went off duty at 22 approximately 4 p.m. the day before?
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• 226 1 A 4 p.m., yes. 2 Q Okay, and then what was the, can 3 you tell us what's on, is R-2, is that another 4 exemplar of what the flightplan.com showed 5 you? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay, is there anything different 8 about it? Is there anything different about 9 this document as opposed to what you saw when 10 you created Plan B? 11 A No. 12 Q Tell us what the stops are and so 13 forth and the time frames for, for Plan B? 14 A Okay, Plan B, again I refer back 15 to the R-8 just to help me go through it. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I have 18 Q I'm concerned more about just what 19 your plan was for Plan B? 20 A Plan B was the part, Plan B was to 21 have Bill Didier on duty at 6 a.m. Central 22 Time and fly as a passenger to West Palm
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• 227 

### 1 Beach. And Andrew Wolf was**assig~ed** 

### as the 2 PIC to fly the 901 leg down to West Palm 3 Beach. 4 Q 

### Okay/ and what was the next leg? 5 A 

### The next leg we were supposed to 1 

### 6 we were supposed to meet the patient and the 7 family member at the West Palm Beach Airport 8 at approximately 1:20 1 

### 1:25 in the afternoon. 9 Q 

### Okay. 10 A 

### And we were going to plan on doing 11 a quick turn 1 

### load the patient 1 

### get the 12 aircraft refueled and to proceed to the next 13 fuel stop which in this case was Jessup I 

### 14 Georgia. 15 Q 

### Okay 1 

### and this particular leg from 16 West Palm Beach to Jessup was that 1 

### who was 17 the PIC for that 18 A 

### Bill Didier. 19 Q 

### And why is it that you had Mr. 20 Wolf as the PIC for the leg from Indiana to 21 West Palm Beach. 22 A 

### To keep the flight legal and safe.
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• 228
1 

### If Bill had flown all four legs he would have 2 exceeded eight hour flight restriction or 3 eight in a 24 hour day. 4 Q 

### And then did Mr., well, tell us 5 

### what happened in, what was the plan after 6 

### Jessup, Georgia, then what? 7 A 

### Proceed to Chicago, unload the 8 

### patient ant they would go off, everybody would 9 

### go off, Bill Didier would go off duty at, at 10 approximately 19:30 Central Trim, 7:30 p.m. 11 Q 

### And so was your plan, the Plan B, 

### 12 in your opinion did Plan B comport with 14-CRF 13 Section 135.267 D respecting the 24 hour day 14 and the ten hour rest periodprior to the duty 15 day? 16 A 

### Yes. 17 Q 

### Can you explain that to us? 18 A 

### I had put Bill on duty clock 19 leaving Indiana at exactly 6 a.m. and I had 20 himplanned to complete his mission in Chicago 21 at about 19:30 Central Time, and that in a 24 22 hour look back the way I understood it would
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• 229 1 have given him ten and-a-half hours of ret at 2 the time of the completion of the assignment. 3 Q Okay, and then? 4 A And this plan also included a 45 5 minute, it should have been a one hour, 6 approximately 45 minute prior to departure 7 being on, included a 30 minute window for the 8 fuel stop in Georgia, and a 45 minute window 9 for loading and fueling in Palm Beach, and 10 then a 30 minute window for fueling in Jessup, 11 Georgia, and then a 25 minute off duty time, 12 extra time in Chicago. 13 Q For the post-flight paperwork and 14 so forth? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And the, where did you arrive at, 17 these 30 minute and 45 minute time frames that 18 you built into your schedule? 19 A Just what we find is our average 20 fueling. 21 Q And in reality when this flight 22 took off, with the excepting of the loading of
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• 230
1 the patient, were those time frames consistent 2 in reality to what your flight plan was? 3 A Yes. 4 Q When the Plan B we' 11 call it, 5 after the mechanical problem with the first 6 plane, how did you communicate that Plan B to 7 the appropriate individual? 8 A I called Bill Didier and I also 9 spoke with Quentin Levitte prior to departure 10 from Oshkosh with the plan, I talked to him 11 about the assignment. And at that time we 12 also discussed, we discussed possibly 13 continuing on to Florida that evening, but 14 based on the weather and the night time 15 operation we thought it just best to have 16 everybody rest and then resume the flight at 17 6 o'clock in the morning with Andrew flying 18 down and Bill flying back it would have still 19 been legal and safe for daylight operation. 20 Q And at any time during, 21 subsequently during the course of when the 22 flight flew down from, when they flew from
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• 231 1 Indiana to West Palm Beach, were there any 2 delays? 3 A No. 4 Q Was there any delay once they got 5 to West Palm Beach with respect to the 6 patient? 7 A Yes. 8 Q When did you discover that there 9 was a delay with respect to that patient? 10 A I had called Lauren Smith in our 11 office and inquired, you know, what the status 12 of the flight was, how was 773 and how, what 13 was, where is Bill on the, in the plan. And 14 she said they were running a little bit late 15 because the ambulance got lost. 16 Q Did you have any information at 17 that time as to how long that delay was? 18 A No. 19 Q And you've had experience with 20 scheduling flights with ambulances coming to 21 your aircraft for transport, is that true? 22 A Yes.
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• 232 1 Q And how long have you been doing 2 that? 3 A 31 years. 4 Q How often, can you tell us how 5 often is it that a ambulance is late by more 6 than, let's say 30 minutes, or this transfer 7 process of the vehicular ambulance to the 8 aircraft? 9 A Probably less than five percent of 10 the time. 11 Q Have you ever had in your 12 exper1ence prior to this, scheduling these 13 flights, any delays of more than an hour? 14 A We have, but not, not usually. 15 Ambulances are usually pretty prompt with the 16 patient. 17 Q Okay, 1n your opinion was the 18 delay from this ambulance unforeseeable? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Why do you say that? 21 A We run a pretty tight schedule, 22 and we had expressed to the broker that, you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 233 1 

### know, we run it on a time line to get this 2 

### flight completed. Based on the patients 3 condition, a flight that had already seen a 4 

### delay because of our first mechanical, she 5 thought she was going to belleaving Palm Beach 6 in the morning and we had to change all that 7 because we hadmechanical problems. Well, now 8 it's an afternoon departure, and she was 9 already anxious, the patient is anxious. 10 Q 

### I've marked Exhibit R-9 for 11 identification

-- 12 (Respondent Exhibit R-9 was marked 13 

### for ident{fication.) 14 A 

### Yes. 15 Q 

### Exhibit marked as R-9, do you know 16 what this is? 17 A This would be a copy of American 18 Medical Response, this is a ground ambulance 19 company in Florida that was to bring the 20 patient, John Violet, out to the airport. 21 Q 

### Okay, and let me direct you just, 22 according to this document does it set forth
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• 234 1 the medical condition of that patient? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And can you tell us what that was? 4 A These are notes that AMR's 5 personnel would have put into their computer 6 program, but basically telling us that the 7 patient is extremely weak, and all over 8 secondary to recent cardiac history, renal, 9 currently undergoing renal failure, patient 10 requires isolation to cautions for MRSA. 11 Q And the patient was an 80 year old 12 gentleman? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And were you aware of the 15 condition of that patient prior to taking on 16 this assignment? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How was that communicated to you? 19 A I was sent a pre-flight report 20 from intensive air ambulance that gives us a 21 number to get a medical briefing so that our, 22 our flight medic, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 235
1 Q 

### I'm going to mark Exhibit R-10 for 2 identification. Let me show you Exhibit R-10 3 and can you tell me what that is? 4 

### (Respondent Exhibit R-10 was 5 

### marked for identification.) 6 A 

### This is, the broker goes under a 7 couple different names, but it's IntensiveAir 8 Ambulance or, and or US Air Ambulance, same 9 

### company. And this is an intake form that 10 their nurse would take when they get an 11 initial assessment of a patient that's being 12 considered for a flight. And once they take 13 this information they then forward it to us so 14 that we can at least have a contact name at 15 the hospital, which hospital, a member of the 16 

### medical briefing, and just some basic 17 information on the patients condition and the 18 urgency of the flight. 19 Q 

### Okay, and do you communicate this 20 information to your flight medic so, in this 21 case Mr. Blodgett, so he knows what he's 22 getting into?
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• 236 1 A Mr. Blodgett will call the 2 hospital directly and get a direct briefing on 3 the patient. 4 Q Let me show you what I've marked 5 as R-11, marked R-11 for identification. Let 6 me show you this, can you tell me what that 7 is? 8 (Respondent Exhibit R-11 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 A That's Trans North Aviation, the 11 travel cares patient run report, and it's what 12 the flight paramedic would complete, complete 13 during the flight. Basicallybloodpressures, 14 his condition, medications, oxygen, just a 15 narrative of the patient's condition during 16 the flight. 17 Q Does that say anything about the 18 condition of the patients wife? 19 A Yes, on line two Maynard Blodgett 20 made a point of putting the wife was extremely 21 agitated. 22 Q And do you know what the reason NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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1 was for him being transferred from West Palm 2 Beach up to the Chicago Metropolitan area? 3 A What I understand from Intensive 4 Air Ambulance is that the patient, based on 5 his condition, was trying to get closer to 6 family to move back to 7 Q Now, this delay with the 8 ambulance, when did you discover the extent of 9 that delay? 10 A Not until the next day. 11 Q And was that, was the delay ever 12 communicated to you, the extent of the delay? 13 How long was the delay? 14 A Three hours. 15 Q And this three hour time frame, 16 was that ever communicated to you by any of 17 the crew members for the flight coming up to, 18 coming back to? 19 A No. 20 Q And but for that ambulance delay 21 would this assignment be able to be completed 22 consistent with 14-CFR Section 1354267-D ln
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1 

### terms of the duty day and the rest period? 2 A 

### Yes. 3 Q 

### So was it your opinion it's the 4 ambulance delay that caused the flight, 1n 5 reality, to deviate from your initial plan? 6 A 

### Yes. 7 Q 

### And according to this Exhibit R-8, 8 

### if you would take a look at that, that's the 9 graphic, this shows on here that there is a 10 plan of duty off at 19:30? 11 A 

### Correct. 12 Q 

### And is that consistent with the 13 flight plans that we have exactly as Plan B? 14 A 

### Yeah, Plan B, the assignment was 15 that he would come into Chicago and land at 16 19:05 based on plan to plan, and he would go 17 off duty 25 minutes later at 19:30. 18 Q 

### And that planned time off duty, or 19 let's talk about the landing of that flight at 20 approximately 19:05 you said? 21 A 

### Yes. 22 Q 

### That also took into account the
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1 time frame for the transfer of the patient, 2 and the time frame for fuel stops along the 3 way? 4 A Yes, yes. 5 Q And according to this, R-8, at the 6 bottom it indicates down here the duty date, 7 hours, et cetera, do you see that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q That's part of the government's 10 exhibit that's not here, is that correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And then it indicates here 7.3 13 hours of rest prior to getting 24 hour look 14 back, right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And that's based on the actual 17 flight data, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That's not based on your flight 20 plan is it? 21 A Correct. 22 Q You have a flight plan, you have
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1 

### allowed for at least ten hours of rest in the 2 past 24 hours, and we're looking at a 24 hour 3 4 A 

### Ten and-a-half, ten and-a-half 5 hours. 6 Q 

### After this accident occurred the 7 FAA 

### sent you a letter of investigation, I 8 

### think you've heard some testimony about that? 9 A 

### Yes. 10 Q 

### Did that letter of investigation 11 

### ever ask you to set forth verbally or in any 12 

### other fashion your flight plan as the 13 

### operationsdirectorandthe certificateholder 14 

### for Trans North for these flights? 15 A 

### No. 16 Q 

### At any time did any of the 17 investigators question

-- 18 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Objection. Leading 19 questions. 20 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 21 

### BY MR. BORTH: 22 Q 

### This, at any time through that
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1 investigation process following this accident, 2 were you ever interviewed by anybody at the 3 FAA and asked about the circumstances of your 4 flight planning activities prior to these 5 flights? 6 A I believe we briefly discussed it 7 in an informal conference. 8 Q Okay, but outside of the informal 9 conference, prior to the informal conference, 10 was there anything by way of the FAA 11 investigators asking you any questions about 12 your flight plan? 13 A No. 14 Q And you were, I think we've 15 established by way of documents earlier this 16 morning, you were the operations director for 17 Trans North? 18 A Director of operations, yes. 19 Q Okay, and you were the one charges 20 with the responsibility of creating flight 21 plans for the pilots to fly for Trans North? 22 A Yes.
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• 242 1 Q Okay, and who was it that 2 communicatedtherewas some discussionearlier 3 this afternoon about who communicated the 4 flight plan to Mr. Didier and Mr. Wolf. Who 5 was it that communicated the flight plan? 6 A I communicated it to Andrew Wolf 7 prior to departure from Oshkosh, also Quentin 8 Levitte. I think Quentin Levitte just 9 reinforced the assignment based on the two 10 pilots and who were supposed to fly down and 11 who was supposed to fly back, just make sure 12 there was no confusion. 13 Q And as to the custom and practice 14 of Trans North Aviation back in November of 15 2011, was it the custom and practice for you 16 to create the flight plans for the pilots and 17 flight schedules for the pilots? 18 A I would take a quick vlew to make 19 sure that it's legal and within our 20 parameters. But the pilots also do their own 21 flight plans. 22 Q And the flight plans that we were NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 243
1 

### looking at early today, were those flight 2 plans, any of those filed by you? 3 A 

### No. 4 Q 

### We're talking about, let me show 5 you these just to make clear for the record. 6 Okay, let me show you what's been marked 7 

### previouslyas A-10, and actuallyadmitted into 8 

### evidence. Do you know what that is? 9 

### A This looks like a letter to Sandra 10 Boerman about flight plans that were filed on 11 flightplan.com
. 12 Q 

### And for these flights, tell me now 13 were, in Indiana and West Palm Beach did you 14 play a role 1n filing any of that information, 15 the flight plan? 16 A 

### No, I did not. 17 Q 

### Is that flight watch? 18 A 

### Flightplan.com 19 Q 

### DO you know who did it? 20 A 

### I am assuming that it would be 21 Bill Didier, the captain. 22 Q 

### Let me show you what's marked as NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 244 1 A-11, this lS a print of flight aware for 2 November 59773. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you play any role in creating 5 the times or departure arrival times that are 6 put into that document? 7 A No. 8 Q And does this show the delay

-- 9 A Yes, it does. 10 Q Where is the delay? 11 A At approximately 2.8 hours. 12 Q Thank you. That's all I have at 13 this time, Judge, I'll tender the witness. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any cross? It's 15 3:30, and I want to keep everybody's eye on 16 the clock, because at 4:30 we're going to need 17 to break. And if you feel you're going to go 18 longer than an hour and you want to break now, 19 that's fine if you want to go now and break at 20 4:30, that's fine. So, your call. 21 MS
. DAUBARAS : I'd rather go 22 forward.
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• 245 

### 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 

### MS. DAUBARAS: By the way, Your 3 Honor, I think these documents have been 4 tendered for identification. I would object 5 to any of them being placed into evidence 6 because they're a recreation. 7 

### JUDGE ,GOODWIN: Nothing's been 8 

### tendered yet; so they're just marked for 9 identification they haven't been proffered. 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 12 Q 

### Sir, was it your testimony that 13 you didn't know when they were in Jessup that 14 they were delayed? That the flight was going 15 to be delayed coming back? 16 A 

### I knew at West Palm Beach there

I 

### 17 was a delay, I didn't know the extent of the 18 delay. 19 Q 

### You didn't know the extent of the 20 delay? 21 A 

### Yes, ma'am. 22 Q 

### You weren't texting them when they
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• 246 1 stopped for gas in Jessup coming back? 2 A I did send texts, and talked about 3 hotel rooms, transportation to Palwaukee, and 4 I received a text from Bill that said he was 5 departing Jessup. 6 Q And what time was that? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q You don't know what time you 9 received that text? 10 A When I look at a text, ma'am, I 11 simply read the text, I don't look at the 12 time. 13 Q Was there any particular reasons 14 why they took on a certain amount of gas when 15 they were in Florida and then moved to Jessup 16 to fill up the tanks? 17 A Cost of fuel at Palm Beach, 18 weather in the Midwest. I like to not to top 19 off in Palm Beach, I believe. 20 Q Was there some, in that decision 21 you said cost of gas, didn't play a role? 22 A It's just a factor in aviation.
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• 247 1 Q And that 1s, whose decision was 2 that? 3 A That would be the pilot's 4 decision. 5 Q And were you texting him though as 6 to the cost of gas? 7 A Not at that time. 8 Q When you went into the informal 9 conference with the FAA did you mention any of 10 this flight planning that you did? 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me just say 12 that the Court doesn't allow any testimony 13 reference to any potential settlement 14 conference for either party. Case law is 15 pretty clear. I don't blame you for the 16 question, but I'm not going to allow the 17 answer. 18 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 19 Q so basically it's your 20 testimony that you did not know of the delay, 21 you didn't know how much of a delay that they 22 had, you had a flight plan that you thought
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1 about prior to, or considered prior to 2 aircraft becoming disabled, first aircraft, 3 and that you didn't do another flight plan 4 after that? 5 A Well, plan A, the first airplane 6 had a mechanical problem. It landed in 7 Indiana and I had to come up with a Plan B of 8 how we're going to get this patient from 9 Florida back up to Chicago safely. 10 Q Okay, what lS your general 11 operations manual say about if there is a 12 delay? 13 A I don't have a copy of that now. 14 Q Can you I explain that on page 3.1 15 1n that manual it states that the pilot must 16 contact the director of operation if the 17 flight does not depart within 30 minutes of 18 the scheduled departure time? 19 MR. BORTH: I'll object. If she 20 wants to read that, I'd like to see a copy and 21 I'd like the witness to see a copy. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled.
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• 249
1 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 2 Q Are you aware of that rule? 3 A Well, I was not contacted by the 4 pilot, ma'am. 5 Q Okay, and you don't know what time 6 you were texting? 7 A I received text messages from 8 Bill, but I was not looking at the time stamp. 9 Q In Agency Exhibit A-1 do you 10 recall that

-- 11 A Yes. 12 Q And why did you tell, or why did 13 Ken instruct Bill never to fly over three 14 hours

-- 15 MR. BORTH: Objection. Calls for 16 speculation. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: To run a safe 19 operation. 20 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 21 Q And why is that? 22 A We already had had some, one other
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• 250
1 

### issue I think with Bill landing at a 2 particular airport on a 91 leg, and he may not 3 have met the VFR requirement for that flight, 4 and Bill Didier was counseled by Ken Fox 1n 5 

### regards to that. And so there was a, a 6 procedure put in place where Bill would text 7 Ken Fox, a chief pilot, upon landing at any, 8 

### what fuel he had on board and what distance 9 was it to the next destination, and the number 10 of souls, I believe. It was a procedure that 11 Ken Fox had put into place just to 12 Q 

### But in your Plan B you testified 13 that one of his flight times would have been 14 over four hours, four hours and five minutes? 15 A 

### Where is that? 16 Q 

### Marked for identification Exhibit 17 R-2, is that R-2? 18 A 

### What's the question? 19 Q 

### In your Plan B, even though

-- 20 A 

### It's a reproduction and you want 21 to ask about? 22 Q 

### About the four hours, I mean you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 251 1 

### just testified for a long period of time about 2 it, yes, so I want to know why you would say 3 that you would put him the plane for four and4 a-half, four hours and five minutes when Ken 5 had indicated that he shouldn't fly over three 6 hours? 7 A 

### This 1s a reproduction, and I 8 probably could do this today based on today's 9 

### weather and come up with a different number of 10 hours. It's based on what the winds are that 11 particular day. So, on July 7th when I did 12 

### this reproduction the weather between Jessup 13 and Chicago may have been there were stronger 14 head winds. The airplane is capable of flying 15 

### over five hours. The NTSB came to the 16 conclusion that there was enough fuel onboard 17 that airplane to fly from Jessup Georgia to 18 Chicago and the alternate. 19 Q 

### Even considering the fact that 20 they? 21 A 

### Ken was giving guidance to Bill 22 Didier to, to not fly over three and-a-half
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• 252
1 

### hours. And unless I have that particular plan 2 that day this is just a reproduction, it's an 3 estimate. 4 Q 

### Okay, did you ever make that a 5 

### policy for the company? 6 A 

### No, they did not. 7 Q 

### Were you expecting a call when 8 they landed at Milwaukee? 9 A 

### No, a text maybe, a text to Ken. 10 Q 

### And you didn't receive the text 11 within the expected time, right? 12 A 

### No. 13 Q 

### I have nothing further, Your 14 Honor. 15 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect. 16 

### MR. BORTH: I don't have anything 17 further, Judge, I'd just like to move into 18 evidence R-1, R-2 and R-8, 9, 

### 10 and 11. 19 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't have R-2, 20 let's get 21 MR. BORTH: No, I those are, I 22 skipped those.
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• 253
1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN:
-- where it is. 2 

### MR. BORTH: Best laid plans. 3 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's take them 4 one at a time for the benefit of the counsel. 5 You're moving into evidence Respondent's 1. 6 

### MS
. DAUBARAS: Your Honor, I 

### 7 object to these recreations because they're 8 two and-a-half years after the fact, number 9 one. 10 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: I've got, I should 11 ·have said that I've got a hearing disability 12 and sometimes I can hear and sometimes I 13 can't. So, you said you object? 14 MS. DAUBARAS: I object to R-1 and 15 I object to R-2, I'll take them one at a time. 16 R-1 is a recreation of a flight planning that 17 Mr. Schaberg spoke about, testified about, 18 however this one, this flight occurred in 19 November, and his recreation is July 13th, 20 

### summertime, not winter time. And I don't 21 believe that this has any relationship, no 22 

### relevance at all to whether or not he filed a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 254 1 flight plan. Because if he had filed a flight 2 plan we have no evidence of it. We don't know 3 what he planned. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I think his 5 testimony was he didn't have it, so they don't 6 have the original. 7 MS. DAUBARAS: But I would still 8 object to it, and I also object to number two 9 for the same reasons. 10 MR. BORTH: Judge, these are both 11 exhibits that were created by Trans North 12 Aviation that are consistent and he gave 13 testimony they are consistent with the flight 14 plan that he created for the subject flights. 15 And he also testified that with respect to any 16 times that are set forth in these documents, · 17 they were essentially the same as what he was 18 looking at for, in the subject flight and 19 there's no real difference other than, you 20 know, the date. But these are, he also 21 testified that he could go into the 22 flightplan.com right now and pull up the exact
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• 255
1 

### information. That's all he's done here to 2 demonstrate what the flight plan was at the 3 time that he made it, and to demonstrate 4 

### further that the flight plan that he made was 5 

### consistent with the code of federal 6 regulation. 7 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, the agency 8 1s correct in the sense these obviously are 9 documents that are generated for the purpose 10 

### of trial. The reason I'm inclined to overrule 11 

### the objection and accept them.is that they 12 

### help the Court understand the process. Having 13 

### said that I can tell you they're going to be 14 

### getting little weight, because as agency 15 

### counsel correctly points out, the flight was 16 

### in November, these are for July six months 17 

### later. You've got winter conditions, you've 18 

### got summer conditions, the only reason that 19 

### they allow them to be received is to help the 20 

### Court understand the process. However, I'm 21 

### not going to accept that the information in 22 terms of flight times, weather conditions,
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• 256
1 

### are, being they're off on six months. So I'm 2 allowing their addition for purposes of 3**h~lping** 

### the Court understand the process of 4 how flight plans are done. I'm not accepting 5 the information contained in the document. 6 

### Now that's just for one and two. Five we 7 already took care of. 8 (Respondent's Exhibits R-1 and R-2 9 were marked for identification and 10 received into evidence.) 11 MS. DAUBARAS: I also object toR12 8 . 13 JUDGE 

### GOODWIN: Let me get there. 14 Seven is --here's the Court's position on R15 8. Either we're going to accept Respondent's 16 8 and Agency 9 or we're not going to accept 17 either, because Agency 9 is, we're in the 18 position now where the agency introduced a 19 schematic developed by the witness attempting 20 to demonstrate using Zulu time for flights, 21 and Respondent is attempting to take that back 22 and change it.
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• 257 1 MR. BORTH: We 1 ll withdraw that/ 2 that was a demonstrative aide 1 we won 1 t seek 3 admission of that. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: So you 1 re 5 withdrawing 8 for identification? 6 MR. BORTH: Yes. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: The next exhibit 8 1s 9 1 okay 6 had previously had been in the 9 court from our notes. Now 1 the copy that the 10 Court has 1 has a Christmas tree 1 which I don 1t 11 pay any attention to anyway/ so I leave it to 12 you whether you want to substitute this. I 13 don/t pay attention to Christmas trees/ I 1Ve 14 known a Christmas tree before and I didn 1t pay 15 any attention to them when my name is on it 1 16 so. R-7 is research documents/ so I 1m going 17 to 1 we 1ve talked about that before. 8 was 18 withdrawn/ 9 is the letter for the American 19 Medic letter written by 20 Erin Graves to Barnett and Borth

-- 21 MS
. DAUBARAS : I said it was a 22 letter

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• 258 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll give this to 2 counsel. 3 MS. DAUBARAS:

-- with regard to 4 what the condition of the patient was. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: If we've 1e t it 6 in, we're going to have to redact it. I just 7 flipped to the last page and there's 8 somebody's name -- 9 MR. BORTH: Yes, I saw that on 10 there, too, Judge. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well the problem 12 is it's part of the administrative record 13 anyway, so I'm going to have to redact it 14 whether I admit it, it is part of the 15 administrative record. And I don't know who's 16 phone number this is, so, you want, have you 17 proffered Exhibit 9 for identification? 18 MR. BORTH: Yes. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any argument 1n 20 support of the submission would be? Mr. 21 Borth, what's you argument? 22 MR. BORTH: As to the, the medical.
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• 259 1 

### chart in this run report? 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: There 1 S 

### testimony 3 about the condition of the patient which 4 Respondent is using as a basis for the 5 

### exception to the reg. And based upon that 6 I 1 

### ll allow it 1

### s admission for limitedpurpose. 7 So I 

### 9 for identification is received into 8 

### evidence. And the Court will review the 9 

### redactions. Respondent 1 

### s 10 for 10 identification is an Air Ambulance Medical 11 

### Certificate. Are you finished with the 12 

### witness? 13 

### (Respondent 1 

### s Exhibit R-9 was 14 

### received into evidence.) 15 

### MR. BORTH: I believe so. 16 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Because he looks 17 uncomfortable sitting there. 18 

### MR. BOTH: 

### No 1 

### if he could just 19 wait a couple minutes I 1 

### ll make sure that we 20 get the exhibits in. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent 1

### s 10 22 

### for identification .is a US Air Ambulance
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• 260 1 medical clearance certificate. To the extent 2 it's consistent with R-9 will allow it's 3 admission for the same reasons that I allowed 4 Exhibit 9, only to the condition of the 5 patient to the extent that it is relevant to 6 the case. And Respondent's 11 I will allow it 7 again, for the same reason. 8 (Respondent Exhibits R-10 and R-11 9 were received into evidence.) 10 MS. DAUBARAS: Nine, ten and 11 eleven are in? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, but again 13 for, over objection for limited purpose. And 14 onlybecause Respondent's position is that the 15 condition of the patient is the condition 16 which allows the exception to the rule. Any 17 additional testimony or evidence? 18 MR. BORTH: I don't think so, 19 Judge. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: any 21 additional cross? 22 MS. DAUBARAS: I have none. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 261
1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pardon me? 2 MS. DAUBARAS: No. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, sir, you can 4 step down. Any additional? 5 MR. BORTH: No, that's all we 6 have, Judge, we rest. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 8 rebuttal? Let's do this, let's take five 9 minutes, come back in at 4 o'clock, give you 10 a chance whether you want to do a rebuttal. 11 MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I've got 13 five minutes of. 14 (Off the record.) 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 16 record. 17 MS. DAUBARAS: I'm attempting to 18 call the rebuttal witness, John. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right, be 20 seated. Restate your name for the record. 21 Whereupon, 22 JOHN MERRILL
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• 262
1 recalled as a witness herein, having been 2 previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and 3 testified, as follows: 4 THE WITNESS: John Merrill, M-e-r5 r-i-1-1. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to 7 remind the witness you are still under oath. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 11 Q Your Honor, let the record reflect 12 that I'm showing the witness what was, I 13 believe, admitted into evidence as part of the 14 operation specifications for a 435 operator, 15 Trans North Aviation. Could you take a minute 16 to review that, please? 17 A Sure. 18 Q Are those the operations 19 specifications, what are, what is that? 20 A Yes, rna'am, this is an excerpt 21 from A008 that I assigned to Trans North 22 Aviation at the POR. A008 pertains to
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• 263
1 

### operational control. 2 Q 

### And is that part of the 3 certificate's operations specifications? 4 A 

### Yes, ma'am. 5 Q 

### Okay, and what is it, in 08 that 6 

### concerns you? 7 A 

### Well, I, originally when I first 8 testified I had spoke a little bit about A008. 9 

### There was one part after that I had forgot to 10 testify against, and it's under the second 11 

### page A008-2. And it is D, 

### elements of 12 operational control, and it is the following 13 

### items are essential elements of operational 14 

### control and are required to be components of 15 

### the operational control system used by the 16 

### certificate holder as described or referenced 17 

### ln sub-paragraph A above. 18 Number one specifically lS crew 19 member requirements. The certificate holder 20 may conduct any operation under part 135 

### 21 unless each certificateholder crewmember is, 22 

### and I'm going to skip over A just because it
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• 264 1 pertains to direct employees or agent, but B 2 is the one that I'm looking for. B l.S 3 currently trained and or tested qualified, and 4 hold the appropriate airman and medical 5 certificates to conduct the flights for the 6 certificate holder, under part 135, and is 7 otherwise qualified to accept a specific 8 flight assignment, considering flight andrest 9 requirements, airspace qualification and the 10 type of operation in tendering the assignment. 11 Each pilot must be specifically 12 listed by name and airman certificate number 13 on the list of pilots maintained by the 14 certificate holder at it's main base of 15 operations, and so listed in operations specs. 16 Basically, what I was looking for specifically 17 there in that paragraph again was the sentence 18 that said, is otherwise qualified to accept 19 the specific flight assignment considering 20 flight and rest requirements. And. that's the 21 part that I failed to testify against earlier. 22 Q And do you believe in fact

-- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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•• 265
1 

### MR. BORTH: I'll object that this 2 lS not rebuttal, Judge,· this is new evidence 3 and it doesn't rebut anything in. the response 4 case ln chief. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, the manual 6 lS already in evidence, is it not? 7 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Yes. 8 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: So it's already in 9 evidence, so it's not new evidence, it may be 10 redundant. 11 MR. BORTH: Well, his testimony 12 doesn't reflect what our case, anything that 13 we got into in our case in chief. This· is a 14 rebuttal witness, I don't, 

### he's supposed to be 15 rebutting something, I don't 

### see any rebuttal 16 ln anything. 17 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'll allow 18 limited inquiry, but it should be rebutting 19 anything that the Respondent's witness has 20 said. The operations manual is in evidence, 21 that certainly can be referred to in an 22 argument. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 266 

### 1 BY MS. DAUBARAS: 2 Q 

### Why did you feel that you had to 3 speak to this

-- 4 A 

### Definitely. After hearing 5 testimony from the Defendants I felt that it 6 

### was necessary to point out that with 7 operational control it is necessary for each 8 leg, not just the assignment, each leg that 9 the person holding operational control, 10 whether it's the director of operations, 11 whether it's the chief pilot, whether it's 12 somebody else assigned operational control, 13 it's not the entire trip it's each leg they 14 must monitor that flight at all times prior to 15 the flight going, for a specific flight 16 assignment, again considering flight and rest 17 

### requirements. So, that's why I felt it was 18 necessary to speak up and talk. It's nothing 19 new, it's just something that I left out prior 20 and something that I felt was necessary to add 21 to this. 22 Q 

### Anything else?
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 267
1 A No. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any cross based on 3 the

-- 4 MR. BORTH: I'd like to see the 5 document if I could. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 7 THE WITNESS: Is that page two 8 that you have? You'll need page two. 9 CROSS EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. BORTH: 11 Q 808-2? 12 A Yes, sir, I could show you exactly 13 where I was reading from if that's necessary. 14 If you could turn it around I could see it. 15 Yes. 16 Q Do you have this in front of you? 17 A I, I'm fairly, it's okay, I'm 18 fairly familiar with it. If I need it I'll 19 just ask you for it. 20 Q Okay, let me, if you don't mind 21 I'll hover over you. 22 A No, that's fine.
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

•

• 268 1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel/ I don't 2 mind if you approach the witness. It should 3 be easier for John to -- 4 BY MR. BORTH: 5 Q 

### According to the section, and I 6 

### believe I had it wrong/ it's Exhibit A-4 page 7 two/ under crew member requirements/ is that 8 

### what you're referring to? 9 A 

### D-1 B. 10 Q 

### D-1 B 

### okay/ and under D-1 B 

### it 11 says currently trained and1 

### it says under one, 12 

### the certificate holder may not conduct any 13 operation under part 135 unless the 14 certificate holders crew member or members 1s 15 currently trained and or tested. In terms of 16 

### both 1 

### all the pilots involved in this case 17 were they all currently trained and tested? 18 A 

### Yes. 19 Q 

### Were they all qualified? 20 A 

### Yes. 21 Q 

### Did they all hold the appropriate 22 airman and medical certificates?
NEAL R. GROSS (202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

•

•• 269
1 A 

### Yes. 2 Q 

### And they were otherwise qualified 3 to accept this specific flight assignment? 4 A 

### Let me correct myself. Mr. Wolf, 5 

### is it, he did not take any tests for his part 6 91. 

### So it 7 Q 

### So, this doesn't apply to this 8 

### rule 9 A 

### Correct. 10 Q 

### -- because he was only assigned to 11 

### one Part .91 

### flights, correct? 12 A 

### Right. 13 Q 

### And then it says considering the 14 

### flight and rest requirements, it says 15 qualified to accept this specific flight 16 assignment considering the flight and rest 17 requirements, right? 18 A 

### Yes, sir. 19 Q 

### And that's consistent with what 20 the FAR says, that the certificate holder is 21 

### supposed to provide for the appropriate rest, 22 

### and the 24 look back period at the time of the
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 270 

### 1 assignment, c6rrect? 2 A 

### That's where D 

### states, the 3 following items are essential elements of 4 operational control, and are required to be 5 components of the operational control system 6 

### issued by the certificate holder and, and as 7 described or referenced in sub-paragraph A, 8 which is prevlous, right here. 9 Q 

### All right, and according to what 10 Mr. Schaberg testified to just a few moments 11 ago, ln his estimation of the rest and the 12 

### flight times that he estimated at the time of 13 the assignment, all of these crew members 14 or at least with respect to the 135 operation, 15 had the appropriate amount of rest and had, 16 

### were going to meet, go underneath their flight 17 time requirements, correct? 18 A 

### I did not see any load manifests 19 so I could not give you an accurate answer on 20 that. 21 Q 

### I understand, but isn't that what 22 

### Mr. Schaberg just testified to?
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 271
1 A Again, I don't know if Mr. 2 Schaberg was accurate or not. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: The record will 4 speak as to what he said. 5 MR. BORTH: All right, nothing 6 further then, Judge. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 8 Any other rebuttal witness, anything 9 conditional from this? 10 MS. DAUBARAS: No. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So does that 12 conclude it? I think I understand the crux of 13 the case, and the arguments, and that's the 14 purpose of having a hearing. 15 MS. DAUBARAS: One other thing, 16 Your Honor, we know that you're going to be 17 doing research dn this now, and we would like 18 to submit to you two documents. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's the 20 regulations of this, I can take judicial 21 notice. 22 MS
. DAUBARAS : There's a legal
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

•

• 272 1 interp right prior to the accident, December 2 2012, which is the most current one. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I think in 4 fairness, why don't you transmit that to me 5 and cc counsel. 6 MS
. DAUBARAS : Okay, we'll do 7 that. 8 THE WITNESS: Am I dismissed, Your 9 Honor? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, you can step 11 down
. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: She's trying to 14 sneak stuff into evidence here. You've got to 15 watch the government now. 16 MS. DAUBARAS: Yes, there's two, 17 and I will try, we will get these to you, 18 these are the only copies we have, but one is 19 a decision December 19, 2002. 20 MR. BOTH: What's the name of it? 21 MS. DAUBARAS: They don't give a 22 name. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 273
1 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well let's do, if 2 we're finished with the hearing, counsel we're 3 concluding today giving presentation of 4 

### evidence? 5 

### MR. BORTH: Yes. 6 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, what I'm 7 

### going to ask you to do, if you' 11 

### provide 8 

### copies to Mr. Barnett and Mr. Borth, why don't 9 

### the two of you get together, transcript is 10 

### probably going to be available in about two 11 

### weeks on the internet. After the two of you 12 

### get the transcript why don't you two consult, 13 

### work out a briefing schedule, send me an e14 

### mail as to what you've agreed to. I realize 15 

### that we're getting into fall, we all have 16 

### trial schedules and things come up. If you 17 

### need to slide the schedule just keep me in the 18 

### loop as to what you've agreed to do. 19 

### MR. BOTH: Okay. 20 

### MS. DAUBARAS: Okay. 21 

### MR. BORTH: And as to the 22 briefing, we're briefing the appropriate
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# •

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• 274
1 

### interpretation? 2 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, the charge 3 

### is, and I'm paraphrasing it, but the 4 Respondent violated a section of the CFR that 5 the pilots had more than ten hours, didn't 6 have ten hours rest, it's similar to-- brief 7 

### to the charge. Because that's all I am 8 charged, so I have jurisdiction over 1s 9 whether or not they violated that section of 10 

### the code. So agency should brief first, you 11 

### can rebut and then agency has the rebuttal
. 12 

### But work on a schedule the two of you can work 13 

### with, and then when everything is in and we'll 14 

### do our thing. 15 

### MR. BOTH: Very good. 16 

### MS. DAUBARAS: I believe that I 17 

### have a hearing the first week of September, so 18 

### I just want to let you know. 19 

### MR. BORTH: Yes, I'm pretty jammed 20 up too. We'll talk about it. 21 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, and so for 22 

### our purposes we'll go off the record, and then
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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• 275
1 

### if we've got anything else I'll hang around to 2 make sure she gives me all my exhibits back. 3 

### MS. DAUBARAS: I did give them all 4 to you. 5 

### JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I'm just 6 checking. We're off the record. 7 

### (Whereupon, the hearing was 8 

### concluded at 4:15p.m.) 9 10 

### 11 12 13 

### 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 

### 22
NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

# • A ability 102:10

152:21 181:9 able23:829:20

30:277:6 I30:20 I52:4 176:IO 180:22237:21 abnormalities 127:12 abnormally 127:9 above-captioned

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I16:2 194:6 accepting177:3

256:4 access 149:9 

# • accident16:21 17:1 18:11,2119:12 20:4,6,20,21 22:7 34:1540:1547:2 48:2251:1455:10 56:15 6I:2062:3 62:6,15,18,20 63:2,10,12,14,16 63:20,20,2264:3 65:21 66:7,10,14 67:15 68:969:7 71:3 72:1984:16 84:18 114:3,7 116:21117:6 125:18 128:6 138:16 139:13,14 156:21,22 157:14 157:15 191:4 208:13240:6 241:1 272:1 accidents106:9,10 109:18 193:5 accommodations 136:9 

# • accomplish 189:21 administrator 90:2,4,7,9,21 91:2 account238:22 52:19 91:4,8,1092:8 accurate7:3,3 administrator's 102:18 103:10

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24:1526:2037:6 37:8,1061:6,13 64:18,2071:11,14 72:1876:2077:15 77:21 78:2083:16 86:5,8 87:791:17 91:21 98:2299:1 104:21 114:7 115:4,6,10 118:I5 119:13,19 124:2 124:11,18 158:2 I58:17 161:7 209:9,12,13 211:16217:14 224:15,22225:3 225:13227:12 231:21 232:8 248:2,2 airline15:19 106:5

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# • allegations44:1 0 225:6227:1 25:2031:634:3 asked9:448:13,13 132:20 151:5,7 ' 49:7,11 127:18 230:17242:6 48:1049:1750:4 126:9 127:4 194:I2 197:2 128:I 164:1 and-a-half9:2I 67:970:6 140:13 134:19 142:I8 I98:I5,19 alleged43:I 140:7 222:15229:I 166:14,19175:22 143:2 154:6 165:8 assist63:13 181:9 allegedly53:12 240:4,4251:22 206:20216:6 179:6 188:12 181:11 allow 12:1,2,15 253:8 268:2 190:4 191:6,11 assistant22:I 6

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# • ambiguity204:14 anyway257:II 222:4,6223:16,16 141:11 I96:20 115:4 204:18 258:13 225:22227:8 198:1,4,6227:I attorneys179:9 ambulance1I:I4 apologize88:I 5 228:10229:6 262:2I 266:I2 180:13,18

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# • Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

# •

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# ·~----------------------------~ Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

# • birthI06:I7,2I I07:14 bit15:2 149:6

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# • concluded7:I 9 conservative control27:332:I 9 92:1996:8,11,12 273:2 11:1067:22 117:22 33:3,835:6,I2,14 97:699:15,20 counseled 192:22 169:10203:18 consider128:7 36:4,5,7,I 639:1,5 100:4 114:3 250:4 275:8 204:9 62:4,8 100:8,1I 116:22 124:11 counseling141:18 concluding273:3 consideration 102:I1134:10 128:20 131:22 184:19 191:10 conclusion58:16 78:13 135:22 136:1 I43:21 144:11 192:21

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# • Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

# • 178:9223:17 Crawsfordville

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# • Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

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# • Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433

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•

• 306 C E R.T I F I CAT E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Trans North Aviation

Before: US DOT/FAA

Date: 07-23-13

Place: Milwaukee, WI

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202)234-4433 Court Reporter

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE.,N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com