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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 

TALLAHASSEE DIVISION 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) 

Plaintiff, 

vs. 

LAWRENCE LOMBARDI, 

Defendant. 

) Case No.: 4:99ml30 

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Tallahassee, Florida 

October 1, 1999 

3 P.M. 

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APPEARANCES: 

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TRANSCRIPT OF FIRST APPEARANCE 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE WILLIAM SHERRILL 

UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE 

-,,, .. ;._. -.... • 

For the Plaintiff: P. Michael Patterson 

United States Attorney 

By: RICHARDS. GLASER, JR. 

Assistant U.S. Attorney 

1 

315 South Calhoun Street, Suite 510 

Tallahassee, Florida 32301-1841 

For the Defendant: 

Court Reporter: 

R. TIMOTHY JANSEN 

Attorney at Law 

610 North Duval Street 

Tallahassee, Florida 

Judy A. Ellan, RPR 

32301 

Official U.S. Court Reporter 

10-

JUDY A. ELLAN 

0££icia1 United State• Court Reporter 

110 Eaat Park Avenue* Ta11ahaaaee, F1orida 32301 

(850) 561-6822 

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PROCEEDINGS 

(Call to Order of the Court.) 

(Defendant present.) 

THE COURT: Be seated, please. 

I have for first appearance United States versus 

Lawrence Lombardi. It's Case 4:99m130. 

This is a first appearance, Mr. Lombardi, and I'm a 

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United States Magistrate Judge. The purpose is to advise you 

of the nature of the charges against you, to consider the 

question of release and conditions of release, and to be sure 

you have a lawyer to represent you. 

First, do you have a copy of the complaint? 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, on behalf of Mr. Lombardi, I 

have read the entire complaint with him. We would waive any 

more formal reading of the complaint. We would enter a not 

guilty, and we would ask he be released on bond. 

THE COURT: All right. The nature of the charge 

against you is knowingly and intentionally receiving, 

possessing and making a firearm, which is not registered to 

you in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer 

Record. That's alleged to be in violation of 26, United 

States Code, Section 5861(d) and (f). 

The maximum potential penalty, should you be found 

guilty, is a sentence of ten years of imprisonment, a fine of 

$250,000, and at least three years -- and three years of 

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supervised release. That's as to each of the two counts. 

You carry with you the right to remain silent, and 

that's one of the things that I'm going to tell you about at 

the first appearance. Anything that you say to anyone, other 

than your lawyer, can be held against you. If you've made 

any statements before you came in here today and now you want 

to be silent, you've got the right to do that. If at any 

point you want to answer questions, you've got a right to 

have your lawyer with you while you are questioned. During 

the questioning, if you want to go talk privately with your 

lawyer, you can do that. At any time that you're speaking, 

you've got a right to remain silent; that is, you can stop 

speaking, and there's no penalty for exercising that right. 

The point of all of this is, the government has got 

to prove what they've alleged beyond a reasonable doubt, and 

they can't ask questions of you or point to you and say that 

you are guilty because you're sitting silently. 

The second right that I explain to you at a first 

appearance is your right to counsel. You have a right to 

have a free court-appointed lawyer, if you can't afford one. 

You have a right to hire a lawyer, if you or family and 

friends want to do that. Your right to counsel includes the 

right to have a lawyer to protect your interest throughout 

the processing of this case; to be present on your request, 

if you want a lawyer present when you're questioned; and, 

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thirdly, if the authorities seek to place you in a lineup to 

try to have a witness identify you from an array of other 

people, you would have the right to have counsel present at 

that time as well. 

Mr. Jansen, you've informed me that you're 

temporarily retained today. 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, I'm in the process of being 

retained by the family. I'm in communication with the 

family. I would ask the Court to allow me some time, seven 

days, in order for that to take place. 

THE COURT: All right. 

4 

Mr. Lombardi, that's my normal practice where the 

arrangements for counsel have not been made completely. So, 

what you must do is, you must make a decision whether you are 

going to hire Mr. Jansen or not; and, if you decide you 

cannot afford to hire Mr. Jansen, we'll give you the form to 

fill out, and I need to have that back in seven days. If you 

qualify, I'll appoint the public defender. And, if 

Mr. Jansen is retained, of course, he will enter an 

appearance. 

The next thing to tell you is that this is pending 

on what's known as a "Criminal Complaint." It's not an 

indictment. You've got a right to what's known as a 

"probable cause hearing" it's formally called a 

"preliminary hearing" -- to determine whether it's more 

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probable than not that what's alleged to have occurred in 

this complaint is true. The government has to put on that 

probable cause evidence, and you've got a right to have your 

attorney there. You've got a right to challenge the evidence 

and contest probable cause. 

And, finally, you've got a right to consideration of 

release and conditions of release, and that's the last thing 

that I'm to consider here today. 

As I always do, is the government seeking detention? 

MR. GLASER: Yes, Your Honor, based on danger to the 

community. The allegations here, Your Honor, very briefly, 

as the Court may --

THE COURT: Let me stop us here. Is everybody ready 

for a hearing on the question of detention? 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, we are ready to proceed, and we 

would object to a proffer. We would ask the Court, because 

of the nature of the charges and the circumstantial 

statements in the criminal complaint -- this is not an 

indictment, so there's no probable cause -- I would ask that 

the agent testify, and we be allowed to cross-examine him. 

THE COURT: Well, if we're going to have a hearing 

right now on the issue of the government's motion for 

detention, we will do a preliminary hearing, too. 

And what the government can do is, the government 

can adopt the affidavit, and then I'll allow 

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cross-examination of Agent Pellegrino. 

MR. GLASER: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I think that's the simpler way to go at 

it. 

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MR. GLASER: That would be fine with the United 

States, Your Honor. As the Court is well aware and has 

viewed the affidavit, at least on two different occasions 

now, you are well aware of what the United States would put 

forward in that affidavit concerning the two bombings, August 

31st and September 22nd; and the racially-charged language 

and threats involved as well that are included that tie 

directly to the defendant, Mr. Lombardi. 

We are prepared to proffer that affidavit as 

evidence to detain Mr. Lombardi for purposes of him being a 

danger to the community, and we would offer Special Agent 

Pellegrino up for cross-examination. 

THE COURT: All right. Come on up. 

Since I'm taking up the affidavit, I'll take up the 

probable cause at this point for preliminary hearing, and I 

have distributed to both parties the pretrial services 

report, and that also I'll consider on the motion for 

detention. 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, I don't mean to go out of 

order, but I do have a few comments about the pretrial 

services report when the Court would allow. 

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Pellegrino - Direct 

THE COURT: Okay. 

DEPUTY CLERK: Raise your right hand. 

MATTHEW M. PELLEGRINO, GOVERNMENT WITNESS, DULY SWORN 

DEPUTY CLERK: Be seated. 

State your full name and spell your last name for 

the record. 

THE WITNESS: Matthew M. Pellegrino, 

P-E-L-L-E-G-R-I-N-O. 

THE COURT: I think you need to have Agent 

Pellegrino acknowledge that he signed this affidavit before 

we get started. 

MR. GLASER: Be happy to. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. GLASER: 

Q. Special Agent Pellegrino, on October 1, 1999, did you 

sign an affidavit appended to a criminal complaint presented 

to Magistrate Judge Sherrill, who is sitting on the bench 

here today? 

A. Yes, sir, I did. 

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Q. And in that did you attest before the Magistrate Judge to 

the truthfulness and veracity of any and all statements 

included in this affidavit? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And to the best of your knowledge, as you sit there 

today -- do you have a copy of the affidavit in front of you? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. To the best of your knowledge, is what is included, as 

you sit there today, true and accurate? 

A. Yes, it is. 

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MR. GLASER: Your Honor, that's all of the questions 

I have. 

THE COURT: Okay. Cross? 

MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Agent Pellegrino, did you write this affidavit yourself, 

or did someone else assist you? 

A. I had assistance. 

Q. Okay. And did you personally observe all of the 

information that you put in here, or did you rely on 

conversations from other persons or other agents? 

A. I observed all of the information in this affidavit that 

I have read several times. So, I certainly observed the 

information. I relied on information from other 

investigators assigned the case, as well. 

Q. Is it fair to say that you, yourself, did not interview 

all of the persons who allegedly were interviewed? 

A. Oh, absolutely; that's correct. 

Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that this pipe that you describe 

that was purchased from Home Depot, is that a -- that's 

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Pellegrino - Cross 

professional and it's for irrigation purposes, is it not? 

A. Are you referring to the --

Q. I'll refer to your paragraph. 

A. That would be helpful. 

Q. Paragraph Number 4, sir, of your affidavit, and I would 

ask you to look at, I guess, the latter part of that 

paragraph. You indicate that there were 80 sales of this 

type of device on August 24th, 1999; is that correct? 

A. Did I hear you say 80 sales? 

Q. Well, let me say this: 

How many other of this one type of pipe, this PVC and 

cap, were bought on August 24? 

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A. Okay. Let me make sure I understand your question. 

You're asking how many of these pipes and caps were bought on 

August 24th; is that correct? 

Q. Right. 

A. Okay. I haven't found that spot yet. Hang on a second. 

My recollection and my affidavit states that there was 

only one other instance of a sale of that type of 

merchandise that is, the PVC end caps and PVC ten-inch 

Schedule 80 correction -- Schedule 80 PVC pipe on 

August 24th. That was the only sale, in addition to the one 

on the 30th of August. 

Q. Is it fair to say that the purchaser of that same type of 

device on August 24th could also have built a similar device 

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Peiiegrino - Cross 10 

that the FBI presumed was made? 

A. It's very unlikely. In that investigation, we identified 

who that individual was, and that person still had the items 

that he purchased. 

Q. All right. How far back did you go in looking for these 

items? Did you have a specific target date of 30 days or 

A. I do not recall exactly how far the investigators who 

were assigned that particular lead went back. 

Q. Is it also fair to say that, based on the next sentence 

in that paragraph, that this is used in commercial well and 

irrigation applications? 

A. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Q. And is it fair to say that any of these items could have 

been purchased a year or six months prior to the August 31st 

bombing? 

A. The items that I mentioned in my affidavit? 

Q. Well, a similar type item could have been purchased six 

months earlier? 

A. Is that possible? Certainly, it's possible. 

Q. And based on the evidence that the FBI has uncovered, do 

they know exactly when this device was put together? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And they can't do that scientific evidence, can they? 

A. Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Okay. And when you interviewed Mr. Lombardi at his home, 

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Pellegrino - Cross 

did he also tell you that he was doing some irrigation work 

in his yard? 

A. He was trying to improvise a sprinkler. 

Q. Improvise? 

A. Yes, sir. In other words, trying to built it himself. 

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As opposed to purchasing the sprinkler, he tried to make one. 

Q. Did you see anything in the yard that would confirm that? 

A. Well, it was dark out. He was pointing to an area in his 

lawn that he said required extra gardening. I didn't really 

examine it very closely. 

Q. Can you tell us why you didn't follow that lead? 

A. It was dark. I couldn't see it. 

Q. Is anybody checking into that now? 

A. As we stand here right now? I don't know, sir. 

Q. Have you looked at all of the PVC purchases from Lowe's 

and every other store in the community? 

A. The investigation focused in on Schedule 80 PVC --

Q. Okay. 

A. -- insofar as that is a much more rare type of PVC to 

use. The standard used by most people is the familiar 

Schedule 40, which is that white PVC. Schedule 80 is much 

more heavy-duty and much more expensive; and, therefore, the 

Schedule 40 is more commonly used. Schedule 80 is much more 

rare. 

Q. Well, my questions is: Does Lowe's sell Schedule 80? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 

A. Yes, it does. 

Q. Did you do anything to interview the persons who bought 

this Schedule 80 during the month of August? 

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A. Yes, sir. A certain period of time was established; and, 

as I mentioned before, I'm not sure exactly what that period 

of time was as I sit here right now; but, during the certain 

period of time, two purchases were identified. 

Q. From Lowe's? 

A. From Lowe's. 

Q. Similar type device? 

A. That's correct. 

Q. And did you investigate those persons? 

A. Yes. 

Q. All right. And do you know -- are there any other 

hardware stores that would sell this Schedule 80? 

A. Hardware stores, I don't believe so. We went to the 

manufacturer and identified the distributors and attempted to 

trace distributors or those stores that carried it in the 

Tallahassee area. These were the only sales that we were 

able to identify in that specified period of time, which, 

again, I don't recall off the top of my head what exactly 

that period was. 

Q. Okay. Is it fair to say then that you didn't look in the 

outlying counties, like Wakulla? 

A. Oh, yes, sir, we did. 

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Q. Oh, you did? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Pe11egrino - Cross 

Q. Okay. There is no prohibition from someone purchasing 

this from a store in Tampa or Jacksonville, is there? 

A. Prohibition? 

Q. Well, it could be purchased there, correct? 

A. If it was carried, certainly. 

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Q. All right. You, yourself, are not an explosives expert, 

are you? 

A. Expert, no, sir, I wouldn't say so. 

Q. And so when you relied on whether something is similar, 

you were relying on experts in the field? Some of your 

affidavit states that these devices and parts that were found 

were similar to the purchase. 

A. Those were laboratory experts that provided that 

information. 

Q. Is it fair to say that they are still doing some tests to 

determine a hundred percent accuracy whether or not that 

device was utilized? 

A. The evidence is still being examined; yes, sir. 

Q. And, in fact, some of the evidence may prove not to be 

the device; is that possible? 

MR. GLASER: Objection, speculation, Your Honor. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Is it possible? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 14 

THE COURT: You may inquire. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Is it possible? 

THE COURT: You may answer. 

THE WITNESS: Anything is possible. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. And by my earlier question, this device -- these devices 

that exploded at F.AMU may have been put together years ago. 

Isn't that possible? 

A. I would really have no way of knowing; but, again, 

anything is possible. 

Q. Is it fair to say that you don't have any eyewitness 

putting Mr. Lombardi putting together these pieces and making 

the bomb? 

MR. GLASER: Objection. 

THE COURT: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: No, sir, I do not have anyone who's 

reported observing Mr. Lombardi constructing the device. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Do you have any eyewitness putting Mr. Lombardi at F.AMU 

and the location where the bombs exploded on August 31st or 

on September 22nd? 

A. No, sir, but he has been linked to other sites related to 

this crime. 

Q. So the answer is, no; isn't that correct? There are no 

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Pellegrino - Cross 15 

eyewitnesses placing him at the scene of the crime? 

A. Well, the scene -- there were several scenes of the 

crime. No, your -- the answer to the question as to whether 

he was there at FAMU, no, sir, I have not placed him at that 

scene; however, I have placed him at other scenes. 

Q. All right. He's charged with building a device that's 

not registered with the National Firearms; is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you have any witnesses showing him building that item? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And is it fair to say that a lot of your affidavit 

contains persons seeing my client around the community of 

Tallahassee? 

A. I'm not sure I understand "a lot." He has been seen at 

various locations that were of interest to this 

investigation; yes, sir. 

Q. And not one person sighted him on FAMU campus, during all 

of the different sightings you've listed in your affidavit? 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, is he referring to persons 

in the affidavit? 

MR. JANSEN: Whatever his case is, Judge. I don't 

know if he has something outside of the affidavit that he 

would like to share with the Court. 

THE COURT: Well, since you're questioning him on 

the affidavit, it is important that you distinguish between 

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Pellegrino - Cross 16 

either one, but you are entitled to inquire. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Paragraphs 1 through 26, there is not one person in this 

community that has been identified linking or seeing him at 

FAMU campus on either day? 

A. I have not yet identified anyone seeing him on the FAMU 

campus as of yet during this particular period of time. 

Q. Now, you have identified his vehicle, also; some people 

have identified his vehicle; namely, in Paragraph Number 8 of 

the affidavit; is that correct? 

A. Would you repeat the question again? 

Q. You identified a vehicle, a Chevy S-10 pickup. Is that 

the vehicle my client drives, do you know, registered to him? 

A. He has a Chevy S-10 vehicle; yes, sir. 

Q. Again, all of your paragraphs, 1 through 26, there is not 

one citizen who places that vehicle on FAMU campus on August 

31st or September 22nd, do you? 

A. I have not located anyone who has reported that yet; no, 

sir. 

Q. Okay. I understand that Channel 27 may have recorded 

various conversations based on your affidavit; is that 

correct? 

A. That's correct. 

Q. Did Mr. Lombardi ever identify himself to Channel 27? 

Was he identified by 

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Pellegrino - Cross 17 

A. Did he identify himself to the recipient of the telephone 

call at Channel 27? 

Q. Right. 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Was there any trace-back calls to his home? 

A. To his home? 

Q. Right. 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Okay. 

A. Not that I know of; no, sir. 

Q. Channel 27, somebody pushed Star 69, traced back to 

various locations, correct? 

A. That's correct. 

Q. None of those locations were his home, were they? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And part of these transcripts -- are these complete, or 

were some of those phone calls not completely taped, only 

portions of them taped? 

A. Which transcript are you talking about? 

Q. With Mr. Roberts. We'll start with the first 

conversation. Was that a full and complete conversation? 

A. The first conversation on August the 31st or --

Q. Yes. 

A. -- September 22nd? 

Q. Let's start with the 31st. 

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Pellegrino - Cross 18 

A. Okay. That conversation was not recorded, sir. 

Q. Do you know how long that phone conversation took place? 

How long the call was? 

A. How long the call -- from Mr. Roberts' description, notes 

and recollection, just several minutes. 

Q. Okay. And is it fair to say then that Mr. Roberts has 

not been able to compare the first call to the second call to 

clearly see if they are both the same person? You haven't 

been able to sit down with both calls, since the first one 

wasn't taped, right? 

A. Mr. Roberts has his own recollections, and he had told me 

what his recollections were in comparison with those voices 

and told me he believed them to be the same. 

Q. And I understand you put that in your report, and he's 

relying on a two-minute conversation out of the blue, which 

was not recorded, with a later conversation almost a month 

later. And how long was that conversation? 

A. Again, you're talking about that conversation, the --

Q. The second conversation. 

A. The first conversation on January -- correction --

September 22nd? 

Q. Yes. How long was that, approximately? 

A. Again, just a couple of minutes. 

Q. Was that tape-recorded? 

A. Partially. 

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Pe11egrino - Cross 19 

Q. What part was not recorded, beginning or after? 

A. The beginning. By the time he realized it was a call of 

some interest, some investigative interest, he activated the 

recording and just got the end of the conversation. 

Q. Have you interviewed Mr. Roberts? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Does he have any personal familiarity with Mr. Lombardi? 

A. Not that I know of; no, sir. 

Q. So, he certainly hasn't had a previous conversation which 

he can clarify and say, "Yeah, that's Mr. Lombardi's voice," 

to your knowledge? 

A. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. 

Q. And can you tell me how many other calls were made to any 

TV station or any newspaper in the community after the 

bombing in which somebody may have made another threat, made 

another comment regarding the bombing? Do you understand my 

question? 

A. I'm a little bit confused. No, sir. 

Q. As a result of the original event on August 31st, did 

anyone in this community -- any other newspaper, television 

station -- receive a call from someone, a citizen, making 

similar statements or making comments about what had 

transpired? 

A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 

Q. And how many other persons had called in? How many other 

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calls were there of that nature? 

A. I really don't have any idea how many bomb threats were 

received in the city after that period of time. 

Q. Well, is it fair to say that the FBI Task Force started 

their investigation on August 31st? 

A. Yes, that's a fair statement; yes, sir. 

20 

Q. And is it fair to say that some representative from the 

federal government, either ATF or your office, contacted all 

of the news station bureaus and had them keep a lookout or 

tape any calls that might be related? 

A. I'm not sure it was quite that formal; but, essentially, 

that occurred; yes, sir. 

Q. And you are telling this Court that there were other 

calls in the community regarding this event or these events 

that are not listed in here? 

A. Regarding these events? 

Q. Regarding the bombings. 

A. If someone has called in and mentioned a bombing? Is 

that the question? 

Q. What I mean is someone that may have called in with 

similar type of statements, innuendo, or negative comments 

about the bombing or the persons at FAMU? 

A. I have -- I'm aware of a couple of calls, but is that the 

entire limit of calls? I have no way of knowing. Again, I'm 

not -- I don't have a direct key into the dispatch in the 911 

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operators, so I'm not sure exactly how many might have come 

in. 

Q. That's fair to say. But you are the lead agent on this 

case? 

A. Yes, sir, one of them; yes, sir. 

Q. And you became aware that there might be some other 

calls. Did you follow those up? 

A. Certainly, yes, sir. 

Q. All right. And was Mr. Roberts the recipient of those 

calls? 

A. The two calls that I know about, no, sir, he was not. 

21 

Q. Do you know who else was called, or at least can you tell 

us what --

A. I do not -- as I sit here today, I don't recall the 

names, but I know of two calls that were received. One was 

received by Channel 27 by a person other than Mr. Roberts, 

and then 

Q. Okay. 

A. there was a second call to The Tallahassee Democrat 

that I became aware of. 

Q. And have you tried to connect Mr. Lombardi to those 

calls? 

A. Investigation is taking place looking at those calls to 

identify the caller. I'm not trying to link it to anyone. 

I'm trying to find out who the caller was. 

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Q. That's fair to say. But based on your affidavit, if you 

clearly had any evidence showing Mr. Lombardi made those 

calls, you would have placed that in this affidavit; is that 

correct? 

A. If Mr. Lombardi was identified as the caller? He has not 

been identified as the caller in those two calls; that's 

correct. 

Q. Could you tell this Court the general nature, without any 

inflammatory words, of those two calls? 

A. The first one was a bomb threat to the Leon County Civic 

Center. The second -- let me see how I can characterize 

that. 

Again, I did not interview the individual who received 

this call; but, to the best of my knowledge, the call 

indicated that other events may take place at or other 

events were planned to take place at the FAMU campus. 

Q. All right. It's possible that there are other people in 

this community who are planning events against FAMU? 

A. As I said before, anything is possible. I don't have any 

information that that is, in fact, going on at this point, 

but, you know, it's possible. 

Q. Now, the one call to the civic center, was there any 

racial statements incorporated in that, what I mean, that 

could have linked it to the same thing at FAMU? 

A. Racial statements? I think there was a mention of FAMU 

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in that -- something to the effect, "FAMU wasn't anything," 

or something like --

Q. Okay. 

A. I don't recall specifically, but memory serves me that 

FAMU was mentioned. 

23 

Q. All right. And you, yourself, have you investigated any 

kind of events, any terroristic events in your history as an 

FBI agent? 

A. I am assigned terrorism matters; yes, sir. 

Q. And are you aware, in your experience, that when some of 

these occasions occur, that persons who are not related to 

the event call and take credit for these events? 

A. Call and take credit? 

Q. Call a newspaper and claim responsibility. 

A. Yes, sir, that has happened, sure. 

Q. And merely calling and making innuendo or taking credit 

for a crime which you didn't commit, is not necessarily a 

violation of what he's charged with, is it? 

A. Taking credit? 

Q. Or calling up and making any improper statements, however 

they may be conveyed. 

A. I'm not sure I'm in a position to make a legal conclusion 

as to whether such acts were illegal or not, without getting 

the whole story. 

Q. Okay. Did you tell my client that the phone call itself, 

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if you did make a phone call, would not be a crime? 

A. In our interview that we had last night and this morning, 

we were talking about the fact that expressing his opinion 

about certain things was not a crime. 

Q. And when you asked him did he do this crime, he denied 

it, did he not? 

A. He denied setting the bombs at Florida A&M; yes, sir. 

Q. He denied even making any kind of a device, did he not? 

A. Yes, sir. Not in those specific words, but he intimated 

that he did not. 

Q. At that point he asked for an attorney; is that correct? 

A. At one point he asked for an attorney. 

Q. How many hours was he under interview before he asked for 

an attorney? 

A. I suppose we talked for a couple of hours. 

Q. Three to four hours? 

A. I was thinking more like three hours. 

Q. And can you tell the Court what time of night that 

occurred? 

A. Oh, it began quite late. About 12:30 or so. 

Q. All right. Can you describe the scene when you and your 

officers showed up at the search warrant? 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, I'm not real clear on where 

this is going or the relevance of it. 

THE COURT: Me neither. 

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MR. JANSEN: Well, Judge, I think statements were 

made that they are putting in this affidavit. I think the 

Court has a responsibility to understand the circumstances 

under which any statement by my client was made and what 

effect should be given because of those circumstances. If 

they want to take out that part of the affidavit, that's 

fine. 

25 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, the defendant can get up on 

the stand and deny he made the statements. If there's a 

diminished capacity defense here, that can be made at the 

proper time. 

THE COURT: The only statements are to the tail end 

of the affidavit. 

MR. JANSEN: That's correct, Your Honor. My client 

has no responsibility to prove anything, Judge, and I'm sure 

counsel knows that. 

THE COURT: Certainly, that is true. I'll let you 

go ahead 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Is it fair to say that --

THE COURT: and inquire. There is no need to go 

extensively into it. I will notice that I suspect that 

Mr. Lombardi and Agent Pellegrino have not slept. 

MR. JANSEN: Okay. 

THE COURT: Is that correct? 

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MR. JANSEN: I think that's probably correct. 

THE COURT: And I know Agent Pellegrino has not. 

MR. GLASER: It is fair to say the government's 

attorney has not slept, too. 

THE COURT: I have slept and Mr. Jansen has slept. 

MR. JANSEN: I have a three-year-old that kept me 

from sleeping. 

26 

THE COURT: Okay. You do the best you can. I will 

notice that things were going on late at night and people 

were tired. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Is it fair to say that Mr. Lombardi was cooperative while 

you were questioning him for several hours? 

A. Yes, I would say that's a fair statement. 

Q. And did you, sir, take items away from the home based on 

a search warrant? 

A. Items were seized; yes, sir. 

Q. Did you take anything that would have revealed any 

bomb-making charts, graphs -- anything of that nature from 

the home? 

A. Actually, sir, I have not yet had a chance to review the 

evidence. A search team at the home did that, and I have not 

yet reviewed it. I just haven't had time. 

Q. Did you fulfill your obligation in leaving a receipt for 

items that were seized at the home? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 27 

A. A receipt was left. I was not responsible for doing so, 

nor have I actually read it yet. 

Q. Okay. Is it fair to say, by this point this morning, 

before this hearing, if any bomb-making information was on a 

computer or books, you would have been notified? 

A. Well, the examination of all of the evidence takes time, 

specifically computer-type information, and I don't believe 

it's been completed yet. 

Q. All right. No physical books were taken? 

A. Books, like a manual, is that what you're asking? 

Q. Sure, a manual. 

A. I don't recall. I didn't hear about any; no, sir. 

Q. Okay. And did you find any gunpowder in the house? 

A. Again, sir, I didn't review the entire inventory. I do 

not I did not hear of any gunpowder being seized. 

Q. In paragraph 22, you talk about some cigarettes, and a 

little match being found, but 

A. Which paragraph? 

Q. Paragraph 22, you talk about the Benson -- the wife or 

someone smoked Benson & Hedges cigarettes. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Seeing that you put that in there, wouldn't it be 

consistent that, if somebody found firearms or any kind of 

gunpowder, that would have also been included in here? 

A. That's correct, sir, it would have been. The gunpowder, 

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I'm sure would have been, but there were firearms located 

there. 

Q. Well, those were guns, correct? 

A. Pardon me? 

Q. Guns? 

A. Firearms, yes. 

Q. No explosives? 

A. No explosives that I know of; no, sir. 

Q. Is it fair to say that whatever device exploded at FAMU 

on those two occasions would have required some type of 

gunpowder? 

A. Some type of explosive, yes, sir. 

28 

Q. All right. Do you know if nitroglycerin was involved at 

all, or do you know? 

A. I don't know, but I did not hear that. 

Q. Okay. And when Mr. Lombardi was at Lowe's that day 

purchasing those items, that, itself, was not illegal, was 

it? 

A. The purchase of the items, they were legal items, if 

that's the question; yes, sir. 

Q. How did he pay for such items? 

A. Cash. 

Q. Okay. Did he in any way try to disguise himself at the 

cash register in purchasing them? 

A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. 

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Peiiegrino - Cross 29 

Q. Did he tell you about talking to Ralph Esposito about his 

lawn problem? Do you know who that is? 

A. Esposito, the garden center? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I remember him mentioning that; yes, sir. 

Q. Did you, in fact, interview Mr. Esposito to see if that 

is actually true or not? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Is your investigation done? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. You've talked about some gray bits being found at the 

home and a sawblade being found in the home; is that correct? 

That's in Paragraph Number 25. 

A. Actually, a one-eighth inch drill bit; yes, sir. 

Q. And you talked about a handsaw blade? 

A. And a handsaw blade, yes, sir. 

Q. Do those items -- have they been determined to be 

involved with the devices found on FAMU campus? 

A. They are being examined as we speak. I don't know the 

results of that examination. 

Q. Okay. Well, why is it, sir, then that you didn't put 

that in paragraph 25, that these items, while seized, have 

not been determined to be whether or not they are, in fact, 

related? I mean, you put that paragraph in there for what 

purpose? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 30 

A. Because the relevance of the residue that was on both of 

those items, which is indicative of some involvement in these 

crimes. 

Q. Cutting plastic doesn't necessarily put you at the FAMU 

campus, does it? 

A. It certainly is not proof positive, sir; no, sir. But, 

certainly, it could be considered an indication. 

Q. Well, if that's the case, you would have a lot of people 

to investigate in Tallahassee. 

MR. GLASER: Argumentative, Your Honor. 

MR. JANSEN: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honor. 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. Mr. Lombardi admitted being at Albertson's to purchase 

some Crown Royal; is that correct? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That's that was on September 22nd, 1999. That's the 

day of one of the events? 

A. That's correct. 

Q. And that's not, by itself, illegal to purchase Crown 

Royal at 10:50? 

A. As long as you're over twenty-one. 

Q. And is Mr. Lombardi over twenty-one? 

A. So far as I know, yes, sir. 

Q. And have you determined that Mr. Lombardi was, in fact, 

at the Albertson's at that time? 

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Pellegrino - Cross 31 

A. Yes, sir, I think -- yes, sir. 

Q. And can you tell us what time did that device explode at 

FAMU on September 22nd? 

A. My recollection is about approximately 10:30. 

Q. 10:30. And, again, you have no one placing him at the 

FAMU campus, and he states he was at Albertson's, and you 

have corroboration that he was at Albertson's. 

A. He was at Albertson's on September 22nd, yes, sir; that's 

correct. 

Q. Now, the device that exploded at FAMU, how was it 

designed to explode? Was there a timer or was there a 

mechanism? 

A. Again, the examination is not complete, certainly, on the 

second device. A preliminary report was given to me on the 

first device. And the first device is believed to have been 

initiated with a hobby cannon fuse. A hole was drilled into 

the side of the PVC pipe, a fuse inserted, and a delay 

mechanism was -- the fuse was lit and the device was 

exploded. 

Q. How much of a delay mechanism was there? Did they say? 

A. Well, again, it is preliminary, and so I'm a little 

reluctant to say that's exactly the way it happened, because, 

again, the information is preliminary. But it is believed to 

have been delayed by the use of a cigarette. 

Q. All right. Now, on September 22nd, is it fair to say 

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that the FAMU campus had increased security by that point? 

A. Say that again? 

Q. Prior to the September 22nd explosion, was there an 

increased explosion -- security? 

32 

A. Well, I think there was an increased awareness. I do not 

know that there had -- in fact, I do know that there was not 

the level of increased uniform presence on the campus. That 

occurred after the September 22nd incident. 

Q. Do you have any idea how these explosive devices were 

carried onto the campus? Any kind of material from the 

device itself that would show what it was carried in? 

A. Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Q. And how big a device are we talking about, bigger than 

that Kleenex box? 

A. Certain -- well, it is believed to have been consistent 

with a ten-inch PVC nipple, which is virtually identical to 

the one that Mr. Lombardi purchased on August the 30th. 

Q. The pipe is similar? 

A. Yes, sir, of a similar size. I think the question was: 

What size was it? It was about the size of the pipe that 

Mr. Lombardi purchased on August 30th. 

Q. Okay. And did you do surveillance on Mr. Lombardi at 

some point? 

A. There was a surveillance on Mr. Lombardi on -- I'm losing 

track of days here -- yesterday. 

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Q. All right. And while you were surveilling him, did you 

see him making any bombs? 

A. No, sir. Again, I wasn't personally involved in the 

surveillance, but I got no reports of observations of 

Mr. Lombardi making bombs on yesterday's date. 

Q. Did you search his vehicle? 

33 

A. That was listed in the affidavit. I assume it was done. 

I did not personally do it. 

Q. Is it fair to say that nothing was found in the vehicle 

that would have -- of any consequence, otherwise it would be 

in this affidavit? 

A. Nothing was brought to my attention for me to include it 

in this affidavit. 

Q. All right. You also indicated in your affidavit that 

Mr. Lombardi had some kind of an identification card; is that 

correct? 

A. Can you 

Q. Paragraph 19. 

A. Okay. I see that. Yes, sir. That was reported to us; 

yes, sir. 

Q. And did you have that item listed as an item to be 

searched for during the search warrant? 

A. I don't recall that one being specifically listed; no, 

sir. 

Q. Well, did you find any kind of identification card from 

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his home? 

A. Again, sir, I haven't reviewed all of the evidence, but 

no one has told me, so I can't say that it was. 

Q. Okay. 

MR. JANSEN: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 

(Pause.) 

MR. JANSEN: If I may, Your Honor? 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

34 

Q. Paragraph 22, you mentioned Benson & Hedges cigarettes, 

and I understand you may have seized a Coke can from the home 

and interviewed Mrs. Lombardi regarding cigarettes; is that 

correct? 

A. That's correct. However, I personally did not interview 

Mrs. Lombardi. That was the information that I received. 

Q. Okay. You place significance on the fact that some item, 

some fragment containing the letter "B" was located 

near FAMU; is that correct, paragraph 22, last sentence? 

A. It was located in the debris recovered from the blast 

site; yes, sir. 

Q. Okay. How close to the debris? 

A. How close to the debris? It was part of the debris. 

Q. Okay. Are you familiar with any other cigarettes that 

start with the letter "B"? Ever heard of a brand called 

"Basic"? 

A. I don't smoke, but -- well, yeah, I take that back. I've 

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Peiiegrino - Cross 35 

seen them in magazines, sure, yeah, now that I think of it. 

Q. Do you know whether or not that "B" could have been from 

a Basic cigarette? 

A. Do I personally? 

Q. Personally. 

A. No, sir. Again, this was information that came from 

laboratory examination. 

Q. When you initially started your investigation back in 

August 31st, did it reach a point where it became a major 

investigation? 

A. I think it became a major investigation right from the 

get-go. 

Q. All right. And when you started your investigation, did 

you do any intelligence information from your database or 

from ATF's database or the Tallahassee Police Department, 

regarding individuals who may have prior records involved in 

destructive devices or any kind of racial crimes? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. And did you come up with a list of suspects? 

A. "Suspects" is rather a strong term. We came up with a 

list of individuals whose activities we wanted to look into. 

Q. Okay. And did you look into those individuals? 

A. Yes, sir, we did. 

Q. How many individuals did you come up with, approximately? 

A. Educated guess, 30, 40. 

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Pellegrino - Redirect 36 

Q. Is it fair to say that Mr. Lombardi was not on that list? 

A. That initial list from the intelligence files? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No, sir, he was not. 

Q. Is it fair to say that there is no evidence of any prior 

activity by Mr. Lombardi of this nature? 

A. Not at this time, no, sir. 

MR. JANSEN: No further questions. 

THE COURT: Okay. Any redirect? 

MR. GLASER: Yes, Your Honor, a few questions. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. GLASER: 

Q. Mr. Pellegrino, you were asked on cross by defense 

counsel about this trace-back, Star 69 trace-back. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did any of these calls trace back to this defendant's 

home? 

A. Home? No, sir. 

Q. But they did trace back to other locations; is that 

correct? 

A. Yes, sir, they did. 

Q. And these other locations included Albertson's? 

A. Yes, sir, the place where he was seen. 

Q. At or about the time the place where he was seen; is that 

correct? 

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A. That's correct. 

Q. And at or about the time that he admitted he was there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And this call-back situation also put him at or about the 

scene of the tape that was transcribed pretty much in whole? 

MR. JANSEN: Objection to the form of the question, 

Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Well, let's speed things up. You may 

answer that question. 

MR. GLASER: Thank you, Your Honor. 

BY MR. GLASER: 

Q. I'm referring to paragraph 9, Special Agent Pellegrino, 

the second phone call to Mr. Roberts that was transcribed, 

taped and --

A. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. The question -- I understand which 

call you're talking about. Now, what was the question? 

Q. Was there a star 69 on that as well? 

A. Yes, sir, there was, and there was a trace-back to the 

K-Mart on Apalachee Parkway. 

Q. Not his home? 

A. No, sir, not his home. 

Q. But 

A. It was a pay phone. 

Q. The K-Mart where he himself admitted he was, correct? 

MR. JANSEN: Objection, Your Honor. This testimony 

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Pellegrino - Redirect 38 

is not in this affidavit. It's leading the witness. 

MR. GLASER: Oh, it is in the affidavit, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Just point to it. This is helpful to 

me, and you may continue to lead the witness through the 

affidavit. What section of the affidavit is this admission? 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, I take that -- paragraph 

23, it indicates the individual, whose voice was recorded on 

September 22nd, 1999, Mr. Lombardi admitted that was his 

voice. That was a star 69 to the K-Mart, that conversation. 

Mr. Lombardi admitted that that was his voice on the 

audiotape that was traced back by 69 to the K-Mart. That was 

my question. That's all. 

THE COURT: It was in there. Okay. 

BY MR. GLASER: 

Q. Access to FAMU, Special Agent Pellegrino, in fact, 

Mr. Lombardi did have access to FAMU through his work as a 

vendor there; is that correct? 

A. Yes, sir, for a period of time. 

Q. And he, in fact, had an identification -- a Florida A&M 

University identification card with his name and picture on 

it; is that correct? 

MR. JANSEN: Objection, to the time of that 

possession. 

THE COURT: I'll let you recross on that, if it's 

not established. 

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Pellegrino - Redirect 39 

MR. JANSEN: Okay, that's fine. 

THE WITNESS: Actually, I have not seen the 

identification card. I have seen other identification cards 

that have photographs on it. Whether his had a photograph on 

it or not, I know we had information provided to us that he 

was issued a Rattler I.D. card. Again, I haven't seen it, so 

I can't say for sure that it had his picture on it. 

BY MR. GLASER: 

Q. Has your investigation shown to this point that that card 

was ever returned to FAMU after he was released in July of 

this year? 

A. It was reported to me that it was not. 

Q. Finally, Special Agent Pellegrino, the two paragraphs --

I take it back. It may not be found. It was a long night, 

though. 

The "B" on Benson & Hedges, the conclusion that it was 

consistent at this time with markings on Benson & Hedges, 

that's at paragraph 22, that conclusion is a conclusion of 

laboratory experts; is that correct -- as told to you? 

A. That's correct. 

Q. That's not necessarily your conclusion? 

A. No, no, sir. 

Q. Finally, Special Agent Pellegrino, at paragraph 9 of this 

affidavit, it is the conversation reflected in this 

transcript that Mr. Lombardi admits to being his voice on 

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that audiotape; is that correct? 

A. Yes, sir, he does. 

Q. And at least in part, this transcript reflects that 

40 

Mr. Lombardi said, "FAMU has just seen the beginning of this 

shit"? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And at the end of it, he ends, "And this is just the 

beginning, brother"? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And then there are other things included in there as 

well. 

A. That's correct. 

Q. Mr. Lombardi didn't say, "This is Larry Lombardi," prior 

to making this statement, did he? 

A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 

Q. Nor any other statement? 

A. No, sir. 

MR. GLASER: That's all of the questions, I have. 

THE COURT: Very brief. 

RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. JANSEN: 

Q. The paragraph that we talked about in this transcript, 

there is never anything talking about any bomb, is there, in 

paragraph 9? 

A. Does he specifically mention a bomb in that conversation? 

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Pe11egrino - Recross 41 

No, sir, he does not. 

Q. And he never mentions he's going to make a bomb and bomb 

anybody, does he, in that conversation? 

A. I think the context or the conversation in context makes 

it clear that's what he's talking about. 

Q. Well, let me ask you this: There's no indication about a 

bomb in there? 

A. There is no word "bomb" in there; yes, sir, I agree with 

that. 

Q. And a person that calls up and claims responsibility or 

says, "This is just the beginning," he may just be a person, 

an outsider, watching these events go on; is that correct? 

A. Based on the proximity of the time of the call to the 

time of the blast, not too many people would have known about 

it. 

Q. But you did have other people call and make similar kind 

of comments? 

A. Days and weeks later, yes, not within minutes. 

Q. In your experience, does a terrorist always call right 

away and claim responsibility; or do they sometimes wait and 

make the phone call? 

A. I don't know that there is any hard-and-fast rule, sir. 

So, it's possible. 

Q. And the admission of the phone call itself does not show 

that he made any bomb on the dates that he's been charged 

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Peiiegrino - Recross 

with? 

A. Does it --

Q. It's not foolproof, a hundred percent, that he made any 

bomb at any time? 

A. It's an indicator. 

evidence? 

MR. JANSEN: Thank you for your honesty. 

No further questions. 

THE COURT: Okay. Take your seat. 

Any other evidence from the government? 

MR. GLASER: No, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Does the defense want to put on any 

MR. JANSEN: Not at this time, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. Is there any argument on 

probable cause? 

42 

MR. JANSEN: Well, Judge, I would argue for the 

charge, specific charges that they have filed, that there is 

no evidence that he, in fact, manufactured any item that's 

not registered. They can't put him on the FAMU campus. In 

fact, they put him away from the FAMU campus on the day that 

one exploded. They can't link him to buying anything but an 

item that could have been purchased by anybody in this 

courtroom, could have been bought by anybody outside of 

Tallahassee. The fact that he may have worked there at one 

time, would have made him an easier target and seen at the 

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scene. 

Judge, we know that Richard Jewel was originally 

arrested and charged as a bomber in Atlanta, and that 

investigation determined that it wasn't Richard Jewel. 

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What they've done here is they have charged him with 

an offense, not of bombing FAMU, they charged him with making 

a device that is not registered, and they can't even prove 

that he made the device, and they can't even prove that he 

was at FAMU. It's strictly circumstantial. He was not a 

suspect of the 30 that they identified. No prior history of 

this individual. He lived in the community for five years. 

And it is not an indictment. No grand jury has found 

probable cause that he committed any offense. This is based 

on the information by this FBI agent along with other persons 

giving him information. 

I would argue, Judge, that they haven't satisfied 

probable cause to this charge that's on there. 

THE COURT: Well, I think you've done a good job 

with what you have. I do find probable cause. 

Anything further on the issue of detention? 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, if I may? I'm sorry. Just 

briefly on detention. 

I wanted to ask for time to look at the pretrial 

services report, Your Honor. I would like to correct or 

clarify things. 

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The Court has heard from testimony today that, in 

fact, there were firearms located at the house. I think, if 

you look at the pretrial services report, that was not 

reflected in there. They were found there; and, in fact, 

Mr. Lombardi would admit that there were firearms there, at 

least last night, to Special Agent Pellegrino. 

May I have a second? 

THE COURT: Where are you referring to on the 

pretrial services report? 

MR. GLASER: I'm referring to the last paragraph 

under A, Your Honor, where it says -- begins with "the 

defendant and his attorney," at the bottom of the first page, 

Your Honor. 

is 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. GLASER: May I have just a second? 

I have nothing further. 

THE COURT: Okay. Defense? 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, if I may, on detention, this 

somewhere along the line someone mentioned a 20-year 

sentence, and I reviewed the statute, and it is a ten-year 

sentence for this charge. 

More importantly, Judge, I've looked at the 

guideline range. The guideline range for the offense for 

what this criminal complaint is is 33 months to 41 months as 

we speak. 

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Now, if the federal government wants to indict him 

for more serious charges, that's fine; but for the purposes 

of detention today, the guideline range for my client would 

be 33 to 41 months, and that's looking pessimistic, Judge, if 

he was convicted of this offense. 

My client, on the other hand, Judge, has no previous 

criminal history. He's not a convicted felon, and the fact 

that he may or may not have had firearms in his home is of no 

consequence. There's no allegation that they were illegal 

firearms, and I don't think there's any charges that these 

firearms were not registered. I don't believe that that's 

the charge. I think they're talking about an explosive 

device. 

I would like to correct the pretrial services 

report, because it stated that, "The defendant and his 

attorney declined to comment when asked if firearms were in 

the residence." That's not a true response. 

I responded that, "If there were firearms in the 

home, they would be removed," and I believe they have been 

removed pursuant to a search warrant. I want that to mean 

that we did cooperate with the pretrial services. 

Judge, two factors that you have to make a 

determination on -- whether he's a risk of flight or danger 

to the community. 

I think it's very clear, Judge, he has two children 

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that go to school in our public school system. His wife is 

here today, Judge. She's employed by a corporation here. 

She is here to show her support for her husband. They have 

lived in Tallahassee for over five years. They recently 

purchased a home with a mortgage. They don't plan on going 

anywhere. 

46 

My client cooperated that night when they came to 

his home. He answered some questions; and then, when they 

got -- the questions started to turn, he decided to ask for a 

lawyer, which he is allowed to do. 

I would say that his ties to the community, Judge, 

are clear that he's not a risk for flight. 

Now, danger to the community, Your Honor, I asked 

the pretrial services officer, and I asked her what 

conditions we could satisfy the Court and to the community. 

I think, obviously, the community wants to know whoever is 

doing that, but they also want to make sure they've got the 

right person, and we don't want to put the wrong person in 

jail pending trial just because on a cursory look of some 

circumstantial evidence, he may be involved or he made phone 

calls, but we know other persons made some phone calls. But 

they want to take his liberty from him. He's got no previous 

history, no record. 

I would ask, Judge, that the Court tailor some type 

of a -- even if it's electronic monitoring to keep him home; 

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that way the government would be clear that he will be at 

home. He'll have the monitoring device. That monitoring 

device is very specific. If you leave the home, it will go 

off. He has the type of phone system. Tallahassee pretrial 

services has that type of capability. 

I think, based on the fact that we only have a 

complaint with a guideline sentence of 33 to 41 months, with 

an individual with no previous history whatsoever, who's got 

ties to this community; and, based on the evidence, the 

circumstantial evidence, I think he's a candidate for 

pretrial release. 

My concern, Judge, is, if you put him in custody, 

with the charges against him, he will be in more danger of 

his own safety. Because of the nature and because of the way 

the community obviously feels, he would be at more danger 

there would be more danger to him in custody; that I think 

that electronic monitoring him at home is the best. 

Now, if he is indicted, a grand jury at some point 

indicts him with more serious offenses and the guideline 

range goes up, then I think the Court can then reconsider, 

but right now you're looking at a person who may -- who 

didn't register a firearm. That's what he is charged with, 

not registering a firearm in Washington. That's what he's 

charged with, and that's what the Court should determine the 

bond on. 

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THE COURT: Government, anything further? 

MR. GLASER: Your Honor, in response, just very 

briefly, I'll try not to take up a lot of the Court's time. 

It's clear that what he's charged with is a crime of 

violence. There's court case law on that. I can cite the 

Court numerous cases that this is a crime of violence. When 

you look at the substance of the --

THE COURT: Are you saying technically that 

possession of an unregistered firearm is a crime of violence 

under the Bail Reform Act? 

MR. GLASER: I'm saying that, and the Court can look 

behind, not only that, but look behind what's in the 

affidavit --

THE COURT: Yes, I agree with you on that. 

MR. GLASER: -- as well and can consider that. I'm 

not sure where the defense --

THE COURT: That's a technical point, because there 

is no presumption of detention in the case. 

MR. GLASER: Yes, exactly. 

I'm not sure where the defense counsel comes up with 

the guideline range. I don't think -- as a matter of fact, 

I'm sure -- he's not considered the adjustment for hate 

crime, which also would play into this particular instance, 

which would add considerable number of offense levels. But, 

again, I don't think that necessarily has any relevance. 

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I think that the affidavit is replete with the 

danger that this man poses to the community, based on his own 

actions, which he's admitted to, and based on actions which 

ties him to these bombings, Your Honor. And I think that, as 

a danger, there is clear and convincing evidence that he is a 

danger to the community and would urge this Court to detain 

him prior to trial. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, they're asking you to detain him 

prior to him even being formally charged by the judicial 

system of the United States. A criminal complaint by an FBI 

agent, they want to take his liberty from him. A mere phone 

call alone, Judge, is not sufficient. A mere failure to 

register a firearm is not a violent firearm, Judge. 

Under 3142, we believe there are -- and this Court 

has of course, you have a tough decision, Judge. You've 

got all these people back there that are going to report what 

this Court did. But that shouldn't matter, because the 

justice department or the justice system says you are to be 

blind to what the community calls for. You are here to make 

sure that he is going to be either here for trial, will 

ensure that he comes to trial; and that he's not a danger to 

the community. And you have to look at, besides what's in 

this affidavit, his previous criminal history, the evidence 

against him, the nature of the charges against him. 

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And they have come forward with this failure to 

register a firearm. That's what they've come with, Judge. 

If they had more serious charges and allegations, they would 

have filed them, but they haven't. 

THE COURT: Well, it's all a piece. I think the 

charge is exactly what it technically is, and the underlying 

part is the connection to a bombing at the campus. 

I grant the motion for detention. I think the 

defendant has pointed up weaknesses in the proof that are 

there. But I reason that the phone call that was made, the 

things that were said, connected with the buying of the pipe, 

the other possibility for opportunity for being on FAMU 

campus -- although, admittedly, there's no evidence that the 

defendant was there -- the residue on the saw and on the 

drill bit, connects the defendant to the bombing sufficient 

for probable cause. 

And then where the defendant is directly connected 

to the phone calls by eyewitnesses and people who have 

identified the voice who are familiar with his voice and his 

own admission, and the things that were said in the phone 

call connect together in a much stronger way and show me what 

I have to find; and, that is, that there is, by clear and 

convincing evidence, that there is a danger to the community, 

and I so find. 

I don't believe that I would be able to assure the 

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safety of the community by electronic monitoring in this 

case. 

I make no finding about risk of flight at this 

point. 

MR. JANSEN: Judge, I would ask, on behalf of my 

client, that the Marshal Service be directed -- or I'm sure 

they will -- take all steps to separate him. 

THE COURT: Yes. He will go to the FDC. I'm 

looking at David. Be sure and alert -- now I'm looking at 

the Marshal himself. 

MARSHAL LOCKLEY: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: I don't need to say another word. 

MARSHAL LOCKLEY: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Thank you. We will be in recess. 

(The proceedings concluded at 4:10 p.m.) 

* * * * * * * * 

51 

I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the 

record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 

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