ENGINEER MEMOIRS

LIEUTENANT GENERAL WALTER K. WILSON, JR., USA, RETIRED

This manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded

interview conducted by Dr. Paul Walker of the Historical

Division, Office of the Chief of Engineers, with

Lieutenant General Walter K. Wilson, Jr., USA, Retired,

in Mobile, Alabama, in January 1978.


Lieutenant General Walter K. "Weary" Wilson, Jr., began

his association with the U.S. Army when he was born on

August 26, 1906, at Fort Barrancas, Florida, where his

father was stationed as an Artillery officer. Subsequent

assignments took the Wilson family to Washington, D.C.,

and to Hawaii, where the younger Wilson decided on a

military career. After attending the Army's West Point

Preparatory School at Schofield Barracks, he entered the

Military Academy in 1925 with plans to seek a commission

in the field artillery. His class standing upon

graduation in 1929 made him eligible for a commission in

the Corps of Engineers. He accepted his father's advice,

entered the Corps, and embarked on a distinguished career

that spanned 36 years.

Wilson's first assignment as a young second lieutenant

was as assistant to the District Engineer in Mobile.

Fourteen years of troop command, staff assignments,

advanced study, and a teaching appointment at West Point

followed. In October 1943 he reported to India as Deputy

Engineer-in-Chief in the newly formed Southeast Asia

Command under Lord Louis Mountbatten. He remained in the

China-Burma-India Theater throughout the war, spending

the last eight months commanding American troops and

overseeing the demobilization effort.

Returned to colonel from the rank of brigadier general,

which he had achieved at the age of 38 while in India,

Wilson took command of the St. Paul Engineer District in

June 1946. From there he went to Mobile as District

Engineer in 1949. This was his first experience with a

heavy workload in both civil works and military

construction. Wilson left Mobile for a brief term as

South Atlantic Division Engineer and then moved to

Morocco for a two-year tour as Mediterranean Division

Engineer. Drawing upon his experience in Mobile, he

guided the Division through the complicated process of

conversion from cost plus a fixed fee to lump sum, fixed

price contracting. Wilson also gained valuable

experience managing projects for the Air Force.

General Wilson was Deputy Chief of Engineers for

Construction in a period when the Corps became heavily

involved in major construction projects supporting the

ballistic missile and space programs. In August 1960 he

left OCE to command the Engineer Center and Fort Belvoir,

V
gp

military activities and the respect he had gained in

Congress, the military, and the construction industry led

to his selection as the 40th Chief of Engineers by

President Kennedy. As Chief from 1961-1965, Lieutenant

General Wilson guided the Corps through a difficult

period of Army reorganization which saw the Corps retain

its chief while other branches of the Army lost status. Pursuing his philosophy that "the head man should see and

be seen," he traveled extensively, visiting Corps field

offices and projects and Engineer troops.

Among the citations, decorations, and public service

awards he received are the Distinguished Service Medal,

the Legion of Merit with Oak Leaf Cluster, the French

Legion of Honor, and the Department of Defense

Distinguished Service Citation. In 1962 Kiwanis

International and the American Public Works Association

honored General Wilson and the Corps of Engineers by

naming him one of the top ten Public Works Men of the

year. Three years later he received the National

Aeronautics and Space Administration Medal for

Outstanding Leadership.

After retirement from active duty in 1965, General Wilson

returned to Mobile as vice president of Southern

Industries Corporation, a conglomerate whose subsidiaries

produce and market aggregates for the construction and

chemical industries. In 1966 he also became chairman of

Mobile's Task Force 200, an industrial development agency

of the Chamber of Commerce. In addition he chaired a

board arbitrating construction claims on the Hell's

Canyon project and led an inspection team reviewing

construction programs in Vietnam for the Secretary of

Defense. From 1971-1975 he served as a member of the

U.S. Military Academy Planning Board which was

established to advise the Department of the Army on the

Academy's construction expansion program. General Wilson

was credited with first recognizing the need to construct

a high-level bridge on Interstate 65 over the Mobile

River because of anticipated waterway development. In

1978 the state of Alabama named the bridge in his honor.

vi
September 1929 - August 1930

Assistant to the District Engineer, Mobile Engineer

District, Mobile, AL

September 1930 - July 1932

Company Officer and Company Commander, Seventh

Engineers, Fort Benning, GA

August 1932 - May 1933

Student, University of California, Berkeley, CA

(BSCE)

June 1933 - August 1933

Company Officer, Civilian Conservation Corps Camp,

Blue Mountain, MS

August 1933 - June 1934

Student, The Engineer School, Fort Humphreys, VA

August 1934 - June 1938

Instructor, Department of Civil and Military

Engineering and Military History, U.S. Military

Academy, West Point, NY

September 1938 - June 1939

Student, Command and General Staff School, Fort

Leavenworth, KS

July 1939 - February 1941

Company and Battalion Commander, Third Engineers,

Schofield Barracks, Hawaii

February 1941 - August 1942

Instructor, Command and General Staff School, Fort

Leavenworth, KS

August 1942 - October 1942

Engineer, Amphibious Corps, Atlantic Fleet, Camp

Pickett, VA (temporary duty)

October 1942 - December 1942

Assistant Executive Officer, Engineer Replacement

Training Center, Fort Belvoir, VA

December 1942 - March 1943

Commanding Officer, 79th Engineer Regiment, Camp

Phillips, KS

vii
Commanding Officer, 1113th Engineer Combat Group

June 1943 - September 1943

Student, Army and Navy Staff College, Washington,

DC (including attendance at Navy War College,

Newport, RI, and AAFSAT, Orlando, FL)

October 1943 - August 1945

Deputy Engineer-in-Chief, Southeast Asia Command, 

New Delhi, India, and Kandy, Ceylon, including

temporary duty in London and Washington, January - April 1945

September 1945 - November 1945

Commanding General, Advance Section, United States

Forces, India-Burma Theater

October 1945 - April 1946

Chief of Staff of the Chinese Army in India;

Commanding General, Intermediate Section, United

States Forces, India-Burma Theater; Commanding

General, Base Section, United States Forces,

India-Burma Theater

June 1946 - June 1949

District Engineer, St. Paul Engineer District,

St. Paul, MN

June 1949 - September 1952

District Engineer, Mobile Engineer District,

Mobile, AL

October 1952 - April 1953

 Division Engineer, south Atlantic Engineer

Division, Atlanta, GA

April 1953 - June 1955

Division Engineer, Mediterranean Engineer Division,

Casablanca, North Africa

August 1955 - March 1956

Commanding General, 18th Engineer Brigade and

Deputy Post Commander, Fort Leonard Wood, MO

April 1956 - November 1956

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Military

Construction, Office, Chief of Engineers,

Washington, DC

viii
Assistant 

g

y

Construction, Office, Chief of Engineers,

Washington, DC

November 1956 - August 1960

Deputy Chief of Engineers for Construction, Office,

Chief of Engineers, Washington, DC

August 1960 - May 1961

Commanding General, U.S. Army Engineer Center and

Fort Belvoir, VA

May 1961 - June 1965

Chief of Engineers, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, ,

Washington, DC

30 June 1965

Retirement from active duty, U.S. Army

August 1965 - August 1971

Vice President, Southern Industries Corporation,

Mobile, AL

April 1966 - 1973

Director, Southern Industries Corporation, and

Chairman, Task Force 200, Mobile, AL

1973 - present

Consultant

PROMOTION HISTORY -~

Grade Temporary Permanent

Second Lieutenant

First Lieutenant

Captain

Major

Lieutenant Colonel

Colonel

Brigadier General

Colonel

Brigadier General

Major General

Lieutenant General

16 October 1941

7 May 1942

4 March 1943

13 February 1945

16 May 1946

16 March 1953

25 March 1957

19 May 1961

13 June 1929

1 October 1934

13 June 1939

19 June 1946

15 July 1948

17 April 1952

2 April 1957

22 June 1959

ix
Date and Place of Birth

26 August 1906, Fort Barrancas, FL

Parents

Major General Walter King Wilson and Evangeline

Taylor Wilson

Marriage

Jeanne Herman, Tuscaloosa, AL, 4 October 1930

Children

Two sons, Walter K., III and Frederick

Two daughters, Ellen Elizabeth and Margaret

Grandchildren

Seventeen grandchildren, Walter King Wilson,

IV, (5/63); Robert Perry Amos, Jr. (12/63); Victoria

Taylor Wilson (4/64); Jeanne Elizabeth Amos

(11/64); John Newton Wilson, II (9/66); Elizabeth

Kelly Wilson (6/68); Elizabeth Ashleigh Wilson

(10/70); Dianne Lee Maumenee (4/71); Charles

Sheridan Wilson (9/72); Kelly Dissette Maumenee

(11/72); Stuart Alexander Wilson (10/73); Frederick

Raymond Wilson (10/73); Julie McCabe Amos (3/74);

James Griffin Wilson (9/75); Evangeline Kehoe

Maumenee (4/76); Nicholas Axtel Wilson (1/79); and

Lulie Stinson Maumenee (11/79)

University of Hawaii, three months

United States Military Academy, West Point, NY (BS, 1929)

University of California, Berkeley, CA (BSCE, 1933)

The Engineer School, Fort Humphreys, VA (1934)

Cornell University, Ithaca, NY (1935)

Command and General Staff School, Fort Leavenworth, KS

(1939)

Army and Navy Staff College, Washington, DC (1943)

-*-~?a--~+-?+--~~~~ CITATIONS AND DECORATIONS

Distinguished Service Medal

Soldier's Medal

Legion of Merit with Oak Leaf Cluster
egoooo, Grade of Officer (French)

Battle Stars, India, Burma and Central Burma campaigns

World War II Victory Medal

American Defense Service Medal

American Campaign Medal

Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal

European-African, Middle Eastern Campaign Medal

Five Overseas bars

--- PUBLIC SERVICE AWARDS

One of top 10 "Public Works Men of the Year" (1962)

Distinguished Service Citation (1965)

National Aeronautics and Space Administration Medal

for Outstanding Leadership (1965)

Engineer of the Year, Mobile, AL (1967)

Golden Beaver Award for Engineering (1971)

PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

Society of American Military Engineers

Permanent International Association of Navigation Congresses

U.S. Committee on Large Dams

American Society of Civil Engineers

National Society of Professional Engineers

COMMISSIONS, COMMITTEES, DIRECTORSHIPS

Chairman, Task Force 200, Mobile, AL

Member, Board of Directors, Mobile Chamber of Commerce

xi
Early Life and West Point Years ............

Mobile District ....................

7th Engineer Regiment, Fort Benning ..........

Graduate School, University of California, Berkeley . .

Civilian Conservation Corps ..............

Instructor at West Point. ...............

Army Assignments, 1938-1943 ..............

Southeast Asia Command. ................

St. Paul District Engineer. ..............

Mobile District Engineer. ...............

South Atlantic Division Engineer. ...........

Mediterranean Division Engineer ............

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Military Construction

and Deputy Chief of Engineers ..........

Commander, U.S. Army Engineer Center and Fort Belvoir .

Selection as Chief of Engineers ............

Ballistic Missile and Space Construction Programs

Programs (1958-1965) ...............

Chief of Engineers ..................

Retirement Activities.............................208-218

Appendix A: Articles and Speeches . l . . l l l l l l

Appendix B: Interview with General and Mrs. Wilson l .

Appendix C: Interview with General Wilson . l l . . l

Notes l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l l

1 - 22

23-27

27-32

32-37

38-39

39-43

43-65

66-107

107-117

117-131

131-135

135-150

153-159

159-161

161-165

165-185

186-208

208-218

221

279

295 s

315

xiii
A :

Q :

A l:

Q :

A :

background?I am interested in such things as

where and when you were born, where you grew up,

the influence of being in a military family, and

particularly the people and events that influenced

you and your later career.

Well, that's a broad subject. My father was from

Tennessee, and he came from a fairly large

family.1 They didn't have any money. The Civil

War hadn't been over too long, and he found he

could get an education by going to

that's why he went,

West Point. So

solely for that. His first

station in 1902 was Vancouver Barracks in

Washington.

Did he go into the Engineers?

No he was in artillery.

just artillery.

In those days there was

At Vancouver he met a young lady,

but she wasn't even old enough to think about

getting married at the moment. But he stayed on it

for a couple of years until she was old enough to

think about getting married, and

c

they married in

1904 when it was time for him to hange station.

They went first to Fort Warren in Wyoming and then

to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where old Geronimo was a

prisoner.2 My mother entertained her

grandchildren with tales of Chief Geronimo and Fort

Sill. If there was ever a time when you needed to

quiet them down, all she had to do was sit down in

a chair and start talking about Geronimo. Boy, she

had them all enthralled, our kids and later the

great-grandchildren also. Their third station was

Fort Barrancas in Pensacola, and that's where I was

born.

How do you spell that?

B-A-R-R-A-N-C-A-S. And you just evidenced one of

the problems of my early life. You know, going to

school you had to write down the place you were

born. I could never remember how to spell

Barrancas. Today you could say Pensacola because

Fort Barrancas has been engulfed by the Naval Air

Station; but Barrancas, I didn't know. I left
But anyhow, I was born on the 26th of August 1906,

and one month later went through my first

hurricane, which was a doozer. Quite a few men

were lost at Fort Barrancas and its satellite, Fort

Pickens across the sound, during the hurricane.

Bienville Square in downtown Mobile had some ships

end up in it, so it was a pretty good little

hurricane.

My father went from there to Fort Monroe. I

vaguely remember living in the old fortress there

Then we went to Washington-I was about four I

guess --and stayed there a couple of years. By this

time he had chosen Coast Artillery when they spli

the two artilleries. He was in the Office of the

Chief of Coast Artillery, and they decided they

wanted him to write a training manual. But the old

"Manchu law"3 would only permit you to stay so

long in Washington at a time, so they made him th

commanding officer of Fort Hunt, Virginia. Coming

from Washington it is just short of Mount Vernon,

right across the river from old Fort Washington.

Fort Hunt was a one-battery post, a very modern

one, with disappearing rifles. To me it's always

amazing that I was living there in a place where we

were defending the capital of the United States

from enemy navies. They were going to shoot down

the Potomac River and stop the invaders! It is

amazing. And that's in my lifetime. I can

remember Fort Hunt. Now it's a park under the

National Park Service.

It became time for me to go to school while I was

at Fort Hunt, and there wasn't any school. It was

a little one-battery post with about five officers,

counting the doctor. So I started school in post

headquarters. The post bugler had the job of

teaching me and a sergeant's son named Percy Hunt

The sergeant owned a farm adjacent to Fort Hunt,

and his son and I were the only young ones around

And so the bugler taught us, concentrating on

arithmetic, and my mother supplemented my schooling

and taught me a little bit of English--spelling and

grammar and writing. My brother Jack was born

there in 1913, and then we went back to

Washington.4 My father returned to the Chief of

2
I started formal schooling in Cook School in

Washington in the third grade, so I was probably a

little more than eight because I had to make up a

grade later to get up to par. In 1916 we moved to

Park Road and 16th Street to a tremendous big home

that is now a fraternity house, I believe. My

mother was distantly related to Congressman

LaFollette from around Pullman, Washington, and he

was related to Senator Bob LaFollette from

Wisconsin, and we all lived together in this one

house.5 I'm not quite sure what the arrangements

were, but I believe there was a certain amount of

credit given to my folks for running the place. My

mother managed the servants and the kitchen and so

on. That's probably how we could afford to live

there. I don't know. But it was about a

three-story house, and Senator LaFollette and

Congressman LaFollette's kids, all of them, were

very talented. One of the congressman's sons was a

sculptor and painter and a violinist. He's now

living just outside New York and he's continuing to

teach violin.

But anyhow, we lived there two or three years. You

say, "What's influenced me?" I don't know how much

it influenced me, but at the table at night there

were always 12, 14, or 15 people, and I was

permitted to sit there if I kept my trap properly

closed. We had a serving congressman and we had a

serving senator. And this was right before World

War I. And we had my father, who was involved on

the military side, and they got some pretty hot

arguments going. I'm pretty sure my father didn't

agree with a lot of things Senator LaFollette was

pushing for, but he admired his mind and his

sincerity. It couldn't help but soak into me some.

Q : Do you remember LaFollette personally?

A: Oh, yes. And I remember another thing. My brother

was going on two or three years old then. He was

born in '13, so Chester LaFollette, the

congressman's son I was talking about, was trying

to make a head--I've got it upstairs in front of

the mantel--a bas-relief head of my brother. He

3
tenstep stepladder, and the little boy would climb

up and down those steps, and Chester would be

standing on his head and measuring. I didn't watch

much, but you just couldn't miss it. It was a big

studio on the top floor, and Jack and I played

there frequently.

And then we moved from there to an apartment on

Kalorama Road between Columbia Road and 18th

Street. On Kalorama Road in those days, and all

around us there, lived cabinet officers and other

high-ranking people. I wasn't smart enough to get

very impressed by it, but I have a friend named

Keller, Chuck Keller,6 whose father was an

Engineer officer, and was at the time the Engineer

Commissioner of the District [of Columbia], and he

remembers those celebrities who lived around us.

Oh, we had a couple of the earliest motion picture

child stars who lived around somewhere near us, and

when you'd catch a streetcar you'd rub shoulders

with those people. Anyhow it was interesting. We

moved from there to another house on Wyoming and

Connecticut, where from there I went to high

school. I was supposed to go to Central, but I

thought Western was much better, so I got special

authority to go to Western. I rode a bicycle over

to Western High School from Wyoming and

Connecticut. I went into the high school cadets,

and sometimes for formation of one kind or another

I had to ride that bicycle with a rifle slung over

my back. And it was a big old Craig Jorgensen

rifle, a Spanish War type. It was as big as I was

and kind of heavy.

In those days--talking about school problems--we

had two shifts. I had to go to the afternoon shift

as a freshman. I was there for two years in high

school and my company won the high school

competitive drill. This was one of the few times

Western had ever done it. It was a great honor.

And when President Harding was inaugurated, our

company, as a reward for having won the competitive

drill, was stationed right across the street from

the White House as part of the honor guard. We

didn‘t move, we just stood there carrying these

heavy rifles. Then later we were taken in to shake

hands with Harding in his office area. All this

made a big impression on us.

4
Fort Rosecrans in San Diego as the commanding

officer, and we went out there.7 By this time I

was 16 and my brother then was about 9. I remember

Fort Rosecrans was on a big cliff, a high bluff,

with the beautiful clear blue water of San Diego

Bay. We'd been used to going swimming up around

New York harbor and the Jersey beaches, so nothing

would do but we put on our bathing suits and ran

down and dove off the pier. It was almost like the

movies where they come right back out again. It

was cold! We didn't realize how cold it was going

to be.

But we had only been there about two or three

months when the decision was made to close Fort

Rosecrans, and my father was ordered to Hawaii. So

we went to Hawaii, where he was the commanding

officer of Fort Ruger,

a junior.8

and I went to high school as

I'm sure it must have been a heavy

load on my family because it was a private school,

Panahou, which was one of the oldest schools west

of the Rocky Mountains. It was founded in 1841,

and it's a very high-class school. They paid my

way to the high school and my brother's way to the

grammar school, and I wrangled them into letting me

buy a car to get us to school. I was allowed to do

that provided I would carry my brother. So I had a

thing we called a fireless cooker. It leaked, so I

used to go to the shops and borrow tools and get

guidance, and I took an old FWD [four-wheel drive]

radiator, a big old thing, and cut it down to fit

the shell of the Dodge. It was fine except it

still leaked, so the procedure was always to fill

the radiator up just before going to school and

fill it just before starting home. And the other

thing, to be sure it would start, you always left

it on a hill. But it worked fine. I went there

for two years and graduated in 1924. I told my

father that I would like very much to go to West

Point, and he said, "Well, we have got to get the

appointment. Probably you'll have to take the

presidential because we aren't going to be able to

get a congressional appointment. Of course, that's

pretty tough because there aren't very many."

Q l

. Why couldn't you get a congressional appointment?
congressman we had lived with, and he had been

defeated by that time. I had a promise of an

appointment from another who was related to

somebody in my father's family, but when the time

came he said for political reasons he couldn't

afford to do it. That's fine. But anyhow our tour

would be up in another year and my father promised

to send me to an expensive school, a preparatory

school in Washington I don't know, but it

probably cost $1,500 a year or something like

that. In those days that was a lot. And so he

said in the meantime I ought to go to the

University of Hawaii and get a start. So I went

and I liked it. As a matter of fact, I was a

reasonably proficient tennis player. I'll show you

the tennis cups I have. I haven't any golf prizes

but a lot of tennis cups. But anyhow, I really

wasn't very good, but I'd learned to keep getting

the ball back. I entered the University of Hawaii

handicap tournament and, since I was an unknown,

they gave me a handicap of two. That meant I had

30 when the game started. I did right well against

the first man I played, and the next one I played

was the champion of the university. He was

assessed a minus 30, which meant if I could just

hang on and win two out of the first six points,

I'd win the game. So I beat him about six-love,

and there was great furor about the weakness of the

handicap system! But I had put him out of the

tournament, and I was riding high.

That weekend I heard a rumor that there was an Army

prep school for West Point out at Schofield

Barracks for enlisted men,9 and I thought, gee,

you know, that might save my father a little money

-and might even get me there a year sooner. so I

asked him, "What about that? Could you get me in

that school?" He said, "I don't know. I might be

able to. But now think about it, I've promised to

send you to a prep school in Washington next year,

and it's not hurting you a bit to get this work at

the university and get a little broader

background." But he said, "It's up to you." And I

said, "What would you advise me?" He said, "I'm

not going to advise you. You ask any questions you

want. I'll tell you the answers as I see them.

But you've got to make up your own mind." And I

spent a miserable weekend. I'd asked a lot of

6
Finally, come Monday morning, I said, Okay, I want

to try it." So sure enough, he got me permission

to attend the West Point Preparatory School for the

Hawaiian Department at Schofield Barracks.

The Hawaiian Department was authorized 14 vacancies

for enlisted men to be appointed to the military

academy as their quota, if they had 14 who could

pass. Theoretically, there was competition, but in

fact if they could just pass, they would get in. I

found there was one other presidential, a boy whose

father was stationed at Schofield Barracks, who was

already going to the school, but he was living at

home and going to school in civilian clothes. And

then there was one National Guardsman who was

attending. SO I put on my ROTC uniform and lived

in the 3d Engineers' quadrangle in the barracks of

Company G of the First Gas Regiment. I think it

cost my father the munificent sum of about $11.90 a

month for my ration. It was the total cost of

going to school other than going back and forth to

Fort Ruger on weekends.

I lived in the barracks along with the rest of the

50 or 60 men. The school had been going for two

months when I joined them, and it wasn't too easy

to catch up. By that time I had found out that

there were probably about five presidential

appointments available for the whole United States

that year, and here was one guy right there in the

same school with me, and it looked like he was

going to beat me out. So things didn't look too

bright. But I decided I had to work. We had two

squad rooms, one for study and one for sleeping.

Many of these enlisted personnel had not finished

high school. They were working pretty hard,

working until one, two, or three in the morning,

and I was staying with them. But I found myself

falling asleep in class, and since we had three

brand new second lieutenants, recent graduates of

the military academy, assigned as our instructors,

I came to the conclusion that if the Army was going

to furnish these people and use up their whole

time, it behooved me to listen to what they had to

say. So I decided I was just going to go to sleep

at a certain time every night and not fall asleep

in class. well, as a result, about 11 o'clock, I

went back to the squad room and crawled into bed

7
to go to bed, they'd look over and say, "Look at

that damn weary Wilson over there sound asleep and

here I am working." As a result I became known as

"Weary" Wilson, and I've carried that ever since

then.

Q l

l I was going to ask you about the origin of your

nickname.

A : Well, that's how it started. And I might say that

I found it had some advantages. There are lots of

Wilsons in the world--there were 14 Cadet Wilsons

when I entered the military academy and two W.

Wilsons in the plebes of my company. Also, when a

commanding officer gets word that a Wilson has been

assigned to him and finds he's known as "Weary"

Wilson, he expects the worst. So anything I could

accomplish made a great impression!

Q : To get back to Schofield Barracks--

A : The school was very good. They worked hard on you,

and every Saturday we went through a portion of a

prior-year West Point entrance exam. Some Saturday

mornings we'd do the English portion, the next

Saturday morning we'd do part of the math portion,

the next one part of the history, and so on. And

just every Saturday morning you went through the

routine of getting there and starting when the bell

rang and you started work. When the time was up,

the bell rang and you stopped work, and it was just

kind of ground into you. And, a s I say, I got

impressed with the fact that my chances were pretty

dim. In English, I thought well, there's one thing

I can do something about. I had a good high school

teacher in English at Punahou. So I went back to

her and asked her if I could write themes every

week and bring them to her on the weekend and get

her to correct them, and then I'd copy them over

and then do it again and again. The net effect was

that I had about six themes memorized, punctuation

and everything. And out of those six I got to use

about three of them. I'd guessed well enough so

that most everything I turned in in English was

along the lines of what I pretty well had suspected.

8
coming out my ears! As I understand it--I dont

know this for a fact--I ended up that year as

number one in the five presidentials that got

appointed, in spite of the fact that this kid that

was right there had been beating me all year.10

And as a matter of fact, he turned out to be the

number one boy in my class when we graduated from

the military academy, too. I've never tried to

confirm it or anything, but I do know that there

were only five, and I was one of them.

Q : Five in the entire United States?

A ; Yes l

Q ; So actually there were two presidentials from the

same school?

A: Two from the same little group.

trying for presidentials

The only two

in that school both made

it. There were only three others in the rest of

the country. I didn't know how impressive that was

then, but I do now. But also the National

Guardsman made it and 14 enlisted men; their total

allotment passed and entered the military academy

the first of July. Some of them dropped out pretty

soon, different things happened, but quite a few of

them made it all the way through. As a matter of

fact, the company commander of my company, A

Company, our first-class year; was a first sergeant

at the time of the school. He was a young man,

they didn't have them in those days that young, but

he had made it. He hadn't finished high school,

but he was an outstanding member of my class. The

poor guy got killed in a flying training accident

very shortly after graduation.

I used to drive home every Saturday afternoon after

we completed this prior[-year] West Point exam, go

to Fort Ruger, fall asleep at home, and eat. Eat

mainly. And I did sneak over to the officers' club

at Schofield Barracks once in a while during the

week and eat. Then I'd go write the theme on

Sunday and take it by and see my former teacher.

Then Sunday night or early Monday morning at the

crack of dawn, I'd drive back to Schofield

Barracks. It was about a four-hour drive in those

days. After we completed the entrance exams and

9
who the instructors thought had probably made it

were permitted to stay and take advanced work to be

sure we had a good start when we got to West

Point. We didn't know whether I had made it or not

when we left Hawaii. We were going back by way of

my grandparents' place out in Vancouver,

Washington, and I got word there to report to the

military academy.

So I got on a train out in Portland, and on that

same train was this National Guard guy that had

been in Schofield Barracks. Another man on the

train was a grown man as far as I was concerned. I

called him "sir." The last night on the train, as

we were going down the Hudson River and I was

getting ready to crawl in my berth, this guy sat

across from me and said, "Well, I've listened to

you all talk about West Point. I'm going there,

too." I was amazed. I thought he was past the age

limit, and he turned out to be a real fine

classmate and ultimately our class president. he

had graduated from the University of Oregon

already. He also dove a fighter plane into the

ground. It didn't help him, but he did right well.

Q : You often hear that if you are an Army officer's

son, an Army brat, that it's sort of decided that

you are going to have a career in the Army. That

doesn't sound at all like your experience. it

seems like you were the one who was pushing for

West Point.

A : I was made to make the decision and my brother

pretty much the same way. He graduated in the

class of '35 at the military academy. It was our

idea, I think. We weren't pushed into it, I

agree. I saw boys up there who were. We've tried

to learn from that. I know with our kids, one of

mine wanted to go to West Point.11 We had a

tough time getting him in and an even worse time

keeping him in. But he has made it. He graduated

near the bottom of his class, transferred to the

Engineers, and later became the deputy district

engineer in Louisville. He has done very well in

school ever since then. The other one [Frederick],

we kind of hoped that he would want to go to West

Point, too. He didn't much care. He thought

civilian school was much better. But he thought

10
y, gpp

take the exam. He was shocked to discover that he

not only didn't come out number one, he didn't come

out! When we were at Fort Belvoir, he was in high

school there in Virginia. He did so poorly his

sophomore year that I said, "Freddie, what in the

world can I do with you? What's going to happen?"

He said, "I don't really know. I think you have

got a problem. But why don't you send me to a

military school?" That was his choice. I said,

"Well, you pick it, and I'll try and get you in."

It was then June, and it was too late to get in

most of them. But he went and looked at two or

three and came back and said, "I want to go to

Staunton Military Academy down in the valley." And

we called them and went down there, and they took

pity on the fact that here I was a rather

high-ranking officer and we needed to get him into

something. So they took him. And we agreed that

he was going to repeat his sophomore year. He

didn't do too well the end of that second sophomore

year, but it was an improvement. But at the end of

his junior year he was selected as one of the two

battalion commanders for his senior year, about the

third-ranking officer, and his academic work

improved, and then's when we retired. He had to

decide whether to go back to Staunton and get all

the perquisites, all this he had earned, or come

down here to Mobile. I told him if he came down

here, he had to go to this little tin school down

here called UMS, University Military School.

Incidentally, it's no longer a military school. He

said, "Well, why do I have to do that?" I said,

"Because it's the best academically. You've gone

through your first nine lives on academics, let's

don't walk into another trap." This was not from

the military part of it, strictly the academic. so

he graduated. By the time he graduated from high

school he wanted to get married. We told him that

was up to him, but we had a session out while I was .

weeding one day, and I explained that when he got

married he was then a man and that was the end of

my payroll as far as I was concerned. That shook

him. So he said, "All right, then I'm going to

enlist in the Army and get that over with and then

come back and on the GI Bill. I can do it." And I

said, "Well, that's your prerogative."

11
nice little girl, had arranged for a farewell party

right down here in this room--this incidentally was

his suite, he had four doors he could get in and

out of without us knowing it. She had a big cake

baked with "Farewell Freddie" and all this stuff,

and he had arranged with the recruiting people to

show up the next morning. That afternoon, I was

again weeding, and he came out and squatted down,

didn't do much weeding, but he started talking, and

he said, "I think maybe you were right." "Well," I 

said. "I'm glad to know that. What do you mean?" ,-

He said, "I think you were right when you told me

that I would be better off graduating. I could go

to college, get a reserve commission, go in 'the

Army then, and be of more value than I will be if I

go in right now. But now what can I do? I've got

this party tonight, a farewell." I said, "Well, go

have the party. Let everybody have fun, and when

you get through say, 'Well, I've chickened out.

I've changed my mind, I'm not going.' And just

tell them that." And so he said, "Okay."

He wanted to go to Tulane, he wanted to go to

Georgia Tech, he wanted to go [to] all these

places. None of them would accept him, and so he

continued out here at South Alabama. It [the

school] had been going just about two years by that

time. He said, "I'm going to finish college i n

three years and catch up. I'm going to get married

by the time I graduate." I said, "You've set the

goals/' And that's exactly what he did. Because

of two years at Staunton, he got credit for one

year of advanced ROTC. He had three years of

advanced ROTC, so he had the full four years of

that. He got his degree in three years from

college. He not only did that, but he worked at

McDonald's and places like that to make money in

the meantime. He got married the night before

graduation, went on a one-night honeymoon, came

back, and graduated, and then went on a honeymoon

to Fort Benning--they had two weeks to get

there--and he's a regular Army officer. I say all

this because again I was glad he did it, but I

think I had learned from my father not to try and

force him to go in.

Q : Do you have other children?

12
A: Two daughters.

Q l

: Now to get back, what year did you start at West

Point?

A : July 1, 1925.

Q : When you started at West Point, were you interested

in going into the Engineers?

A : Not in the slightest. No, as a matter of fact, I

was somewhat immature. I went to my high school

graduation dance and ate the cake and punch and

stood around on the outside looking. I didn't know

what you were supposed to do with girls. It

bothered me when I got near them. I was really a

little boy. I had a little trouble gaining enough

weight to meet

military academy.

the requirements to get in the

This National Guard boy and I,

Ted Barber, had both eaten bananas before we

stepped on the scale.12 The doctor came by and

took a look and said, "Can't you scrunch down a

little?" So we both did, and he got a pitcher of

water and said, "Here, drink that son." So I drank

a whole pitcher of water and he said, "Well, I

guess you make it." We were on the ragged edge of

being underweight, about 140, and I was over six

foot. But during plebe year I went up t o about

175--the year that's supposed to be the toughest.

As a matter of fact, all the uniforms they had made

for me were tight by the end of plebe year. I

discovered some of the other facts of life along

about Christmas, plebe year, when everybody went

home except the plebes. And I had a gorgeous

time. Girls came up. What a lot of fun it was!

But I was not what I would call mature even by that

time.

As far as Engineers, no. My thought was artillery,

field artillery. Now when they put you in class

right at the start, they put you in

alphabetically. So being a "W," I was in the last

section for everything. And I found out to my

horror that they graded you on that. I mean

instinctively. If you were in the last section,

you really had to demonstrate that you knew the

subject. I found out later in the year that if you

could get in the first section you were considered

to be pretty smart and you had to prove you

13
Q :

A :

last section I was deficient in at least one

subject and some upperclassmen came to my room to

buck me up. They stood me against the wall and

really convinced me that it was time to go to work.

Fortunately, after a month, the sections were

readjusted, and I sought my own level. After a

while things were a little easier. I worked pretty

hard that first year. I ran scared. As a matter

of fact I ran scared enough to rank number five at

the end of plebe year. But from then on, I -doubled

my standing each year. If there had been a

five-year course, I might not have made the

Engineers. I think I was 5 the first year, 10 the

second, about 20-something the third, and about

40-something the fourth. But putting; them all

together I think I was 19th in class standing. I

had quit running'scared by then. I talked to my

father about it on one occasion, and he said,

"Well, you' know, it's easy to get out of the

Engineers but it's pretty hard to get in." He

said, "If you earn it, why don't you try it? You

may find you like it very much."

I decided to take his advice. So I didn't start

with a goal of being an Engineer, it just seemed

logical to try it since I had earned it. And I've

never regretted it since. I had some classmates

who spent a lot of time coaching other cadets. I

coached some each year at turnout exams. I had to

keep studying, but I didn't take it quite as

seriously as I had earlier.

What were your impressions of West Point in the

mid--twenties?

Well, I'm probably pretty naive, but I thought it

was fine. Looking at it afterwards, there really

weren't any worse times. Most of what we talk

about at reunions and have fun kidding about and

thinking back on were what seemed terrible at the

time they happened. When you think about them

afterwards, there were reasons for them, or they

really weren't too tough. I didn't try very hard

for cadet military rank and as a matter of fact I

felt a great deal of pride in being an area bird,

one of those guys that had to walk punishment tours

on the area. Twice I was busted from a cadet rank,

14
Fortunately, my other two roommates and I, who

lived together most of the four years, are all

alive. It's the oddball things that we think about

when we get together for reunions.

I didn't always live up to the rules. I mean by

that I got caught on some. As an example, I told

you my uniforms were getting too tight. In those

days you didn't have a leave until you had been

there a year--and-a-half, and then at the end of two

years you had a two-and-a-half months' furlough.

When I came back from that two-and-a-half months'

furlough, nothing fit, and I was too tight to go

and buy a whole new bunch of uniforms. So I kept

having the cadet store put a larger collar on a

blouse, or something like that, and I got by pretty

well. But the first time we put on overcoats that

fall was to go to chapel, and when I put on my FD

[full dress] coat with brass buttons on the collar

and then tried to hook the collar in my overcoat,

it was no longer possible. And I thought, oh boy.

I was a corporal at the time, and I went to the

formation with my overcoat collar unhooked. Nobody

noticed it. I rushed up to the cadet store the

next Monday and said, "Need a new collar on my

overcoat right away." And they said, "We can't.

We're taking care of all the plebes. They don't

have all their overcoats and everything yet. So

you must wait."

Well, I figured out that for formations I could

just go with nothing under my overcoat, and it

would be just fine. Nobody would ever notice it.

But then they announced that we were going to wear

full-dress coats to the Notre Dame football game in

New York. It had never happened while I was

there. And that was too much, putting those brass

buttons and all on. I couldn't get my coat collar

closed, and this would show up for sure in Yankee

Stadium. so I thought about it awhile, and I

finally went to a classmate who was the next year's

football captain and asked would he carry my

full-dress coat down to his room at the Astor. He

said, "Sure." So I sent off my full-dress coat

with the team on Friday morning and figured I'd

just wear my overcoat until after the game and go

to the Astor and get my blouse. It was a fine idea

except others had thought similar thoughts, and so

15
wear full-dress coats. My FD coat was already en

route to the Astor.

Saturday morning, when we fell into ranks, the

company commander said, "All right, there will be a

l0-minute break now. Anyone who doesn't have his

full-dress coat on, fall out and go get it and put

it on." I stood there. There wasn't anything else

to do. Mine was in New York City. So I mounted

the train and sat in that heavy thing, sweat

pouring off of me. I went in the little boys' room

once or twice, took things off and panted, but

nobody ever saw me out of uniform. I went through

the game and went down to the Astor and put on my

FD coat. I was never seen improperly dressed,

except as to overcoat collar hooked, but Monday

morning there was the skin sheet on the bulletin

board for failing to wear an FD coat, and I was in

trouble. So I reported to the battalion board,

consisting of three senior officers

one of them--to explain.13

--Bradley was

I gave them my little

explanation, and they said, "Well, that didn't

sound very smart." "No, sir," I said, "it doesn't

now either to me." But, I said, "Here I am. I

couldn't get my coat fixed. The cadet store

couldn't handle it." They said, "Did you go talk

to your tactical officer?" I said, "To my tactical

officer?" They said, "Yes, he'd have helped you."

"Well, I never thought of anything like that, I'd

never expect a tactical officer to help me. All I

would expect him to do was skin me.' That finished

it.

For the rest of the month of November and December

I kept waiting for the axe to fall. Finally I

wrote home and said, " I won't be home for

Christmas. Don't kill the fatted calf." But about

three days before Christmas leave, they read them

out in the mess hall and had busted me and given me

21 hours but no confinement, so I was able to go on

Christmas leave anyhow. But I had to come back and

walk 21 hours in the snow and the cold, every

Saturday and Wednesday: 3 on Saturday and 2 on

Wednesday.

No ,l, I wasn't too impressed. I got to be a first

sergeant, but I believe that was solely because the

company tactical officer had the right to name his

16
earned it. But I learned an awful lot by being the

company first sergeant. I learned how to get

people. moving. and keep them edging in the right

direction and avoiding any direct confrontations,

just kind of ease them around and keep them on

their toes. It was good experience, no doubt about

it.

As far as I'm concerned, I like West Point. I knew

what1 was getting into. I never was asked to do

anything that was beyond what I could expect to

do Oh it was regimented and some people say you

 didn't have enough freedom of choice and all of

this. That didn't bother me. I didn't know enough

to get bothered.

Q : You've mentioned classmates but not by name. Were

there any of your classmates who went on to greater

distinction like yourself?

A : Oh, a whole lot of them, many of them.

Q : Well, who were your closest associates?

A : My closest associates were the ones in the same

company. Ed Lasher was one.14 He went into QM

[Quartermaster] construction and then the

Transportation Corps and retired as a major general

and went to Chicago and took on the job of

president of a big company. He made a jillion

dollars and made his company very successful.

Another roommate, [James J. Winn], was a colonel, a

real good one.15 He married General Marshall's

stepdaughter. He never got any advantage out of

that. He's just the opposite. He's well off, he's

doing well, and is very well respected. We've got

quite a few that were three- and four-star

generals. Frank Merrill of Merrill's Marauders was

a classmate of mine.16 Actually he was a

roommate with me out in New Delhi at the time he

got appointed to that position. The man who really

earned it was another classmate named Ruby Hunter,

who got very little credit, but he did the

organization and training of that outfit and then

got more or less submerged.17 There's Freddie

Smith in the Air Force.18 Oh, there's a lot of

them. Jimmy- Gavin, Paul Harkins, Bozo McKee, Bob

Ward, Al Viney, Jack Person,

to list.19 Paul Freeman -too many

17
West Point Roommates. Walter K. Wilson, Jr., reunited in 1958

with West Point roommates Colonel James J. Winn, III(c.) and

Major General Edmund C.R. Lasher (r.).
g

The system can't have been so wrong and produce as

many of them as it did that did well, in my opinion.

Q 0

0 What about professors at the military academy who

particularly influenced you?

A l

l Oh , I was going to say, we had one classmate, Abe

Lincoln, "Big Abe" we called him, although he was

"little Abe.""20 "Big Abe" was the older of the

Lincoln brothers and he was' a professor at the

military academy. He was a general during World

War II. I was a general briefly also during World

War II. Abe went up to the military academy as a

professor. He got to be a confidant of presidents

and [to] the State Department and other things.

My father had a classmate up there named. Mitchell,

who was professor of engineering.21 I went back

up there as an instructor later and worked for

him. There were some fine men as professors in

those days. Bradley was in the tactical

department--battalion tactical officer if I

remember correctly--and he was on the "bat board."

Yes, the three battalion senior tactical officers

formed the bat board. They reviewed the

disciplinary actions and recommended to the

commandant. But there were some fine people

there. They influenced us, there's no. question

about it. One thing that old Professor Mitchell

used to say that impressed me, not only as a cadet,

but later when I became an instructor, was "Do

something! Don't just sit there floundering.

Analyze it, decide what you can do and do it.

Zoom!" And he actually told us when we were

grading engineering papers that if you get one from

a cadet that says, "I don't know how to do this

problem, but here's something I do know how to do,"

give him pretty close to a passing grade anyway, if

not passing. It depends on how difficult a problem

he's chosen to put down. To me a poor decision

well carried out is better than a brilliant

decision poorly carried out, and that's in essence

what he was saying. And I think that's been true

the rest of my life. I've noticed that it's how

much drive and attention and staying power you put

out that really produces the accomplishment in the

long run. I don't mean you shouldn't have some

19
makes it work.

Q l

l How did you find the curriculum at West Point?

A : Everything was a challenge to me. I don't think we

in those days were nearly as analytical as the

student of today. I mean, as far as I was

concerned, whatever they threw at us was something

I had to do. There weren't any ifs, ands, or buts

about it. I didn't spend hours looking further.

into subjects very often. There wasn't near the

emphasis on library research and all that kind of

business that later times brought along. But I

think we had people come out of it that have done a

right good job of what they were intended to do.

Q : If you would like, could you comment on recent

problems at West Point?

A : I don't think there is any particular thing I can

add to the honor system problem or silencing. I'll

put it this way. I went through an episode of

silencing as a brand new yearling, a sophomore in

other words, just after the plebe year. There were

some people in the class ahead accused of honor

violations who were kept back from furlough and did

duty with us. And I went through a horrible period

of time when we were pulling targets for another

company. This joker and I were on the same

target. Here we were, and I wasn't supposed to

talk to him. I couldn't help but sympathize with

the poor devil. His grandfather and

great-grandfather had been heroes back in the Civil

War and earlier days. Whatever he was accused of,

I didn't know. But it seemed to me they were

putting him through hell, and it also made it hard

on us because we were trying to live by the code,

and you just didn't say anything to him. So here

you are pulling targets, and you could point to the

place, but you didn't talk. That's a minor thing

now.

I was impressed with the honor code as we knew it.

I had classmates turn themselves in, not for real

crucial things, but where they had inadvertently

given an "all right," which is the same as saying,

"I'm doing something proper, and it's authorized."

20
walked for two or three months as a result. Th

didn't use it for discipline in those days. It w

more for honor.

Now, I think as they got bigger and bigger a

bigger, the honor system and the disciplina

system got married to a degree. When I was the

as an instructor or when I was there as a cade

they would never have put us in a position where 

was easy to find out from another battalion wh

was going on before you did it. The time interv

was such that you would have to really go out 

your way and obviously be trying to cheat in ord

to do it. I coached my two roommates when th

were yearlings, one of them in analytical geomet

and the other one in descriptive geometry. One 

them could do one and couldn't do the other, a

vice versa. I could get by in both subjects. 

every night I worked like the devil on one, and t

other the next night. I didn't know what was goi

to be asked because I was taking the work at t

same time they were.

occasion.

I was able to outguess it 

But they never set it up in such 

manner that what you turned in today was wh

somebody else was going to do tomorrow or somethi

like that. To some extent, I think it was t

fault of the administration to let it reach th

point.

I'll put it another

mouse. They never

remember that would

a little cheating.

As first classmen, two other classmates and 

decided we were going to live high, wide, a

handsome. So from Pinky, the enlisted-man ma

carrier, we bought a secondhand car, a litt

Studebaker. That was outside the rules.

in authority had asked us

If anyo

if we had a car, we

have said yes and that would have been it. But 

carefully kept it down in Highland Falls, and wh

we went on weekend leave we'd get in a taxi, ri

to Highland Falls, get our car, and take off. On

you were off the post you were entitled to driv

This was fine except one of the three of us w

getting enough demerits each month so that he nev

earned any leave. So he never got to use that car

way,

set u

tend

they ne

p a sit

to lead

ver played cat a

uati on that I c

you to want to 

21
visited a classmate in Philadelphia and then went

to Washington, where we stayed with my mother and

father. We had a gay old time, and Washington was

a great town for cadets in those days. They had

tea dances and debutante parties, and it didn't

cost you anything except to wear a uniform. Cadets

didn't have money in those days to amount to

anything. The poor third guy showed up in

Washington for his turn about three days before

Christmas leave was over. Well, by that time we

were well fixed up with dates, so he ended up

sitting in the rumble seat. He finally behaved the

month of April so that he got leave in May, and we

both said, "It‘s your turn. You have the car.

We're not going to interfere." And I looked out

the window of the barracks, and there was this

cluck striding across the area of barracks and

climbing into the car, right there. He took off.

The guard at the south gate tried to stop him, and

he just waved at him and kept on going. He went

off and had a fine weekend. He came back, and

Sunday night he showed up in my room and handed me

a dollar and said, "You're selling me your part of

the car. Here's a dollar." I said, "I'm not

selling it to you for a dollar." He said, "You're

selling me your part of the car for a dollar, you

better take it." I said, "Okay." So the next

morning when they called him up and said, "Who owns

that car?" he said, "I do." They didn't ever ask

any more than that...............................

confinement and walking

So he

tours right

was in

up until the

morning of graduation. They took the car away and

hauled it out to the post garage till graduation*

I bought back their shares of the car and that was

my first automobile after being commissioned.

To answer your question, really I think it's too

bad if they don't have a good honor system. It's

too bad if they run it in[to] the ground and make

it a disciplinary tool. The less the system

involves, the better it is. We had honor

representatives in the company, but I don't

remember wanting to ask them something because it

was relatively simple. You knew it was either yes

or no, so you didn't have any problem.

Q : Can you tell me a little about your graduate work

at Berkeley? What you specialized in?

22
3

0

:

gp

District in September. This was my first

assignment, right here.

I arrived here in September 1929. I was known as a

student officer in those days. The idea was to

spread you around and let you get a smattering of

experience with everything in the District.

Interestingly enough, in the summer of 1929 I spent

weekends at West Point, my mother and father being

stationed there. I worked for the "Delay, Linger,

and Wait" Railroad, The Delaware, Lackawanna, and

Western, the summer of graduation, and this started

me off to financial success because I got $125 or

$140 a month for two months. I lived in my aunt's

house out in New Jersey with nobody else there,

they left me in the house. Because I was working

for the railroad I had a pass, so I rode free back

and forth to Hoboken, where the office was. So I'd

come home every night, nobody else around, and I'd

take in another girl and another nightclub, or

roadhouse or something every night.. I lived on one

salary and put the other one away. I was really

just doing fine. I went up to West Point nearly

every weekend because I could go to the cadet

dances and late date the best looking girls. That

happened to me when I was a cadet, and I was

enjoying getting it back.

On one occasion I ran into a friend of mine from

the same company who had been a class behind me and

found out he was being suspended for a year. He

had gotten drunk on a Philadelphia trip for the

ordnance. I said, "Well, what are you going to

do?" He said, "I don't know, I've got to do

something. I have no means of support." I said,

"Why don't you come with me? I'm going to the

Mobile District. There's only one officer down

there, and I'll be the second officer, so I'll be a

big shot. You come on, and I'll get you a job."

He said, "Do you really mean it?" I said, "Sure."

He said, "Fine, I'll do it." So when I left that

weekend to go back and get ready to report to the

Mobile District, I took this boy with me, Jerry

Williams, and we drove down in that same little

Studebaker.22

23
because there are a couple of girls there, o

e

family with five gorgeous babes in it, we ought to

go by there and let me show you what there is in

that part of the world.': I had been there visiting

my Alabama roommate right after graduation and had

met one of these girls. So we went by that way,

stopped in Eufala, intending to spend one night.

We enjoyed it, so we stayed a couple of nights.

Then we blew out a tire, which took all our money.

We started off for Mobile, one day late, from

Eufala, Alabama, driving across country. We

figured that nobody in the Mobile District office

 would know whether we were late or not because

nobody would pay any attention on Sunday. We

pulled in here Sunday night. They had just built

the Cochran Bridge, and it was $1.25 toll. When we

got to that darn bridge, we had $1.50 between us

and we hadn‘t eaten any lunch to economize, and we

just had enough gas to dribble into town. We tried

our best to talk our way through that place, and we

said we were going to go around. The man said,

"Well, you can if you want to, but it will cost you

more for gas than $1.25." So we paid him.

We didn't have sense enough to to the biggest

hotel and just check in and sign for dinner. We

looked for the crummiest boardinghouse we could

find, and because we had so many pieces of baggage,

the woman let us in there without making us pay in

advance. I said, "Well, we'll go look up this

District Engineer [Lt. Col. William D.A. Anderson],

because he knew my father, and maybe his wife will

invite us in to eat supper ."23 So we went out

and sat in front of that house for three or four

hours, and they were away for the weekend. So we

ended up spending our quarter for one milkshake,

which we split.

The next morning we reported to the District office

the minute the doors opened. I'd never met this

man, and he'd never met me. He said, "Is there

anything we can do for you now?" I said, "Yes,

sir, you can introduce us to the bank so we can get

a check cashed. We haven't eaten for over 24

hours." Well, he took care of that. I told him I

had Jerry Williams with me, and I thought he might

be able to find a job. He had to go back a year

later. I did a pretty good job because this was on

24
a Monday morning and by Wednesday morning Jerry

Williams and I were both in Jasper, Alabama, ax in

hand, cutting line for a survey party. We both had

the same job! That was extremely interesting. I

enjoyed it. I went from ax man to rod man to

instrument man to chief of the party in two

months. He went a little slower, but not too much.

Then I got sent back to the District office to work

on the notes from the surveying. I got back here

about the first of November, and I had taken the

advice of the District Engineer to board with Mama

Leatherbury, who headed a large, socially prominent

family here, hit by the loss of the husband and the

Depression and living in a big old house on

Government Street. They were taking in boarders to

exist, and they let me come in. It was a smart

move socially. You had it made once you got in

there. I got invited to the Bachelor's Ball at the

country club, where I found out they had all the

girls lined up around the wall and all the men are

supposed to come by and shake hands with them. Of

course, everybody in the place knew each other

except me. I didn't know a soul, and I soon got

awful tired of explaining who I was as I went

around. So finally, I just said, "I'm Mr. Smith."

When I got to where Jeanne Herman was standing--she

was in the line and had just graduated from the

University of Alabama and had come down here to

teach school--I was Mr. Smith. I always say that

she thought I was one of the Smith Bakery people

here in town, and that's why she chased me so

hard! We hit it off pretty well. I got sent back

up to the Birmingham area to inspect on an aerial

survey job, but I came back down along about the

middle of January, and we got ourselves engaged one

night. The next day a delegation visited me and

asked if I would be a knight in the Mardi Gras.

The friend of one of the maids was from out of

town, and he couldn't make it. If I would do it, I

would have no expenses, all my requirements would

be taken care of. I thought this was something to

avoid and that the District Engineer would never

let me do it, so I said, I'll be glad to do it if

the District Engineer wants me to." I went in and

reported to him and he said, "My goodness, that's

the best advertisement this District has ever had!

Go ahead and do it." Then I had to explain to my

25
were engaged, neither one of us will get invit

to many things, but if we don't,

invitations, and you as

I'll get a lot 

a member of the Court wi

go to everything. So let's go ahead, let's don

say anything." I said, "I've got to tell t

girl." She said, "Sure." So I told my maid befo

I accepted that I really was engaged to anoth

lady. She knew Jeanne, and she said, "If s

doesn't mind, I will be happy because my long-ran

plans include the man who can't come." So I was 

knight in the Mardi Gras in 1930 here in Mobile. 

had a heck of a good time.

Then I got stationed around at all kinds of job

I lived at the shipyards in Pascagoula for a coup

of weeks learning to weld. They let me put a c

up in a sail loft to save money. I also lived on 

dredge, the dredge Wahalak, out of Gulfport, and 

did every job [for] three days. One day standi

around watching and being told what to do; the ne

day doing it with someone standing around watchi

and telling me if I did something wrong: the thi

day they just walked off and left me. I was 

oiler, and a fireman, and a deckhand, and a dred

runner, and a steward, and the captain on th

basis. It just happened that my bride-to-be w

staying down at Biloxi with her family, so eve

time I had any time off, I took off and went in a

spent it with her, slept on her porch, and th

came back. I had it down pretty good for a whi

there. I found out if I worked eight hours, th

eight hours more, and then slept eight hours, a

then worked one more shift, I could be gone about 

full day-and-a-half. But it kind of got to m

after awhile on the sleeping. But it worked out.

Later that year, in September, I was ordered 

Fort Benning. We agreed that we'd get marri

after I got to Benning, had quarters, was orient

in my outfit, and so on. So I reported to Benni

in early September 1930. I reported to the 7

Engineers, which was a regiment, only it was 

regiment minus everything but the first platoon 

A Company. So we actually had about 35 enlist

men and two officers. I was the second office

and First Lieutenant Ben Fowlkes was t

commander.24 That was the demonstration un

from the Engineer viewpoint for the infant

26
with it too much. We did what Ben Fowlkes thou

it was a good idea to do. If the post neede

something done, the post executive officer usua

called up and asked us if we could do it and if 

should do it, and we'd say yes or no and they'd l

it go at that.

I got quarters and then we set up the wedding, 

I took six classmates of mine from Benning with 

for the wedding in Tuscaloosa, including m

four-year roommate as my best man, and fou

groomsmen and a spare. We married on October 4

1930, and then went on back to Benning after 

honeymoon at West Point. My bride. had never be

near the Army until that stage and she starte

learning things beginning right then, and learn

fast.

A year later I became the commanding officer of 

7th Engineer Regiment. In those days the Chief 

Engineers put out a book listing the regiments a

their commanders. There was "7th Engineers, Secon

Lieutenant Walter K. Wilson, commanding." Thi

came out about every three to six months. And eac

time a new issue came out, I'd get a letter from 

reserve officer somewhere up in Ohio stating that 

was falsely occupying that position, that he 

the commanding officer of the 7th Enginee

Regiment. I said, "Well, you write that to th

Chief of Engineers because I don't care." Nothin

ever happened, but that went on and on. I don

know what it was really about. But it was reall

just a platoon. That's what it amounted to. I ha

been commanding officer alone for a couple o

months when the post executive officer called me 

and said, "Weary, have you got a lieutenan

reporting to you today?" I said, "I don't know

sir ." He said, "Well, I think you must have." 

said, "Well, how do you know he's for me?" "Well,

he said, "there's a young man with castles on

dressed to the hilt with his boots shined and h

yellow gloves on, and he's wandering around up he

at headquarters. Come up and rescue him. H

doesn't know what to do with himself." So I wen

up there, and it was Steve Hanmer, a future maj

general in the Corps of Engineers.25 Stev

showed up and he was green. He'd just washed ou

27
what did Benny Fowlkes do with me the first d

arrived?

I said, "Lieutenant Hanmer is going to handle 

infantry drill today. You and I'll stay in here

So the first sergeant and I stood there peekin

the window. If there was one thing we could 

with a little bitty 35-man platoon, it was to 

reasonably passable job of doughboy drill. 

within two or three minutes we looked out an

looked like a horde. It was all screwed 

said to Sergeant McCarthy, "What in the wor

going on, can you tell?" He said, "NO, sir

don't know, I don't understand it." So I went 

to just watch. I stood where I could listen. 

poor Steve, he had gotten excited or somethin

don't know what, but he wasn't saying "Sq

right, march" or "About face/' he was say

"Squads-right-march, about-face" very fast, and 

troops weren't used to that. So it got a li

bit off the timing. I finally signaled for h

call a halt and give them a rest. I said, 

look, this is your drill, and I'm not going to 

you how you have got to do it, but don't 

remember as a cadet the cadence they used? Sq

right, march." He said, "Oh, yes, thank you

then he went back to his doughboy drill.

Once we were asked if we could go out and repa

lot of the culverts and bridges on the tr

running all around the place. Fort Benning was 

largest military reservation in the U.S. at 

time. It was a big station. This was just 

our alley. We lined everything up and sta

out. We had one FWD truck, one motorcycle wi

sidecar, and some mule-drawn wagons--that was 

road equipment in those days. And we marched 

G and built several bridges and bivouacked.

One day about noon a Private [F. Kingdon] Scha

came to me and said, "I want you to see wha

have." He pulled out a great big long snakes

He'd skinned a rattlesnake. I said, "Why did 

do that?" "Oh," he said, "I think the

wonderful." I said, "Don't you know that the 

will find out sometime and even with you

Well, we went on another couple of miles to ano

place and started working and then decided 

28
Mrs. Walter K. Wilson, Jr., in 1931 with Stephen R. Hamner (l.)

and her husband (r.), both lieutenants.
to me and said,

the main post.

look at us. Do

with pup tents

roll up wherever

"You know, we're not anywhere near

Nobody's going to come out here and

we have to line up a company street

and all, or can we just let them

they want to?" I said, "Sergeant,

I think you have got a good idea. Let's just let

everybody roll up where they want to." So in the

middle of the night, about midnight, I heard a

terrible shriek. I came up out of my blanket and . wondered where it was. Flashlights started

 focusing on one place. I ran over, and there was

Private Schaefer holding his leg. Sure enough he

had three penetrations forming a triangle like I

remembered a rattlesnake bite to be. I didn't know

what to do. So I said quickly, "Does anybody know

what you do with something like this besides put on

a tourniquet?" We immediately started somebody

putting on a tourniquet. I said, "What do we do

now? Does anybody know?" By this time Hanmer was

there and most of the platoon. Nobody said a

word. From my Boy Scout days I remembered you were

supposed to get a razorblade and make a cross-hatch

cut. I asked, "Does anybody know any better?" No

answer. so I said, "Somebody give me a

razorblade." Somebody handed me a razorblade, and

I said, "Who‘s going to do it?" No answer, so I

said, "Three of you, hold his legs." I made two

fairly deep cuts and said I remembered from Boy

Scout days that we are supposed to suck out the

blood and poison. So I leaned over and started

sucking away. After two or three minutes of

sucking and spitting, Steve Hanmer tapped me on the

shoulder and said, "I‘ll take my turn now." So I

moved over and let him suck awhile. In the

meantime we had the truck warmed up to send him

back in to the post hospital. We sent a man along

to loosen the tourniquet every so often, and then

we went on back to sleep. We knew it was about a

45 minutes-to-an-hour‘s trip to the hospital, so we

couldn't know whether he was going to make it or

not.

Just before daylight there came a racket and

hollering, "Who's the commanding officer of this

horde?" And I ran up and said, "I am." It was a

medical officer and he said, "Did you send a man in

with a snakebite?". "Yes, sir. Is he going to

live?" "Well," he said, "that's not my question

30
said, "I did." He opened my mouth up and looked in

and felt all around and then shut it. "Did anybody

else," he said. "yes, sir. Lieutenant Hanmer."

So he repeated the process on Steve. He said,

"You're both lucky. You know if you'd have had any

cut or a scratch or opening of any kind in your

mouth, you would both be dead from the venom." I

said, "Can you tell us how Private Schaefer is?"

He said, "Well, actually, you saved his life. Why

did you do that? Where's the snake kit you're

supposed to carry?" I'd never heard of a snake

kit. So we soft-pedaled this tale when we later

returned to the post. The less said the better.

But Private Schaefer returned to the company in

about three weeks. About six months later, his

father came on a visit. Schaefer brought his

father in to meet me, and his father thanked me

very much for what I had done. He said, "You saved

my son's life. I'd like to know, have you gotten

any recognition for this?" I said, "No, sir.

We've kind of kept it quiet. We weren't too proud

of getting in a fix where that could happen.@' So

later, without our knowledge, he went to the post

commander, General Campbell King, and told him this

tale.26 About two years later when I was a

student at Fort Humphreys, an order was issued for

a parade and who should be listed to be awarded a

Soldier's Medal but me! (Steve Hanmer was also

awarded a Soldier's Medal.) In those days I was

about the only man in my class who had any ribbon

to wear. There weren't many awarded between wars.

I knew the sucking was distasteful but not heroic.

If I'd have known that it could have killed me, I

would probably have been a little more careful.

Thinking back on it, they do warn you to be sur

there are no broken areas in your mouth before you

do something like that. A snake bite kit has a

suction cup, but I'd never heard of one. Again,

like I said, "Do something!" Well, doing something

was the right thing there.

When I first joined Company A of the 7th Engineers

as a second lieutenant, I was made the property

officer, which meant taking over a post warehouse

full of Engineer-type items left over from Worl

War I, and oh what a mess. They had been trying

for 12 to 15 years to straighten it out, and they

hadn't completed the job yet. I found something

31
pgg

og pages. so 

signed for it, listing all the shortages. Ben

Fowlkes said, "Just don‘t let any more get messed

up, and we'll finally straighten it all out some

day." So when we left, Steve Hanmer came, and I

made him the property officer the same way. By

that time we had reduced it down to about four

pages and we continued to work on it.

Suddenly I got a letter from the Chief's office,

about the first part of June, asking me if there

were any cogent reasons why I shouldn't go to

Princeton for my advanced degree. I didn‘t know

any cogent reasons, but I knew that my wife was

from Alabama and that she'd freeze to death in

Princeton. She didn‘t own a fur coat, and I

couldn‘t afford to buy her one. So I wrote a

letter explaining the reasons and stating that I‘d

rather go to California, where we could afford it,

than go to Princeton. That‘s the last I heard of

it for nearly two months, and then about the 20th

of July I received a telegram saying, "Report to

the New York port in four days for passage by

transport to California to attend the University of

California."

I couldn‘t possibly turn over that company that

fast and pack and drive to New York, so I called

and asked permission to go overland by car. This

of course was risky financially since you might not

be reimbursed for anything except what could be

related to the specified route, but they told me to

go ahead. So we drove, and we drove into Berkeley

about the eighth or ninth of August. En route, we

had seen the Grand Canyon and been to the Olympics

in Los Angeles for a day. We planned to visit my

grandparents in Vancouver, Washington, since it was

early August, while waiting for the fall semester

to start at U.C., presumably in September, but

thought we could rent an apartment then while there

was no crowd. So we started at the engineering

school and went out the gate and stopped at the

first decent-looking apartments we saw. And the

lady said, "Oh, you're going to be a student here

this year?" And I said, “Yes . " She said, "Have

you registered yet?" I said, "No, we‘re coming

back in September to register." She said, "School

starts tomorrow:" That's the first I'd ever heard

of any school starting that early. That stopped

32
the apartment on the spot. I rushed to the

university and met Dean [Charles] Derleth, and he

said, "Oh, you‘re not coming here this year,

there's not a word about you." “Well," I said,

"I 'm here, I've been sent here, what have you don

in the past?" He said, "In the past these engineer

officer groups have been to a summer school first

which entitles them to get a master's degree. But

you can't get a master's degree, because you're

only going to the two regular semesters." He said,

“Furthermore, in the past the Chief of Engineers'

office has always told us in great detail exactly

what courses you'll take, and we haven't heard a

word about you." I said, "Isn't

coming?" He said, "We haven't

anybody else

got a word on

anyone. You're it." So Dean Derleth said, "Here

are some reports from prior years of what your

predecessors have thought of us and the courses.

Take a look at them, come back tomorrow morning

early,

take."

and tell me what you think you ought to

So I went home and read all those reports and made

up my mind not to take the courses that my

predecessors had said were poor or not of value to

us as officers, but also not to pick just the easy

ones either. The next morning he said, "Fine .

That's it." And I started. About a day later

another officer showed up: Bill Carter, I think,

was the second one.27 He's a retired major

general now, class of '30. Anyway, he showed.

And then six more dribbled in, day by day.

Finally, after about two weeks, I was taking my

first test in hydraulics under Dean [Morrough P.]

O'Brien--he was later a dean, he was just an

instructor in those days. He had started the

course off by starting at one corner of the room

and walked around the four walls deriving a

calculus equation. He lost me back at the second

corner. So I was having a hard time staying with

this class. But as I am taking this first test I

look up,

door,

and there's a familiar face at the glass

who

and it's another classmate of mine, Al Viney,

26 years later would be the deputy for troop

o erations

t ep

while I was deputy for construction in

Chief's office. He looked, and I waved him in

to an extra seat by me. I said, "Sit down. You

33
academy. This is just a little test in

hydraulics. Take a question paper and respond to

it, and when we get through with it I'll take you

around the college and get you started, because

I've done it now for about seven other people. So

I'm the tour guide." So he sat down there.

Q : There were eight other people from the Corps?

A : Yes. They had just dribbled in. We had eight of

us there by that time. And Al Viney was the ninth

and last one. Anyhow, he read the first page and

didn't write a thing. He looked over and I'm

writing busily, and he looked all around and

everybody's writing. He turned the page, and about

this time sweat began to break out on him. And he

didn't write a single thing. After about five

minutes of letting him sweat, I said, "Relax, I

don't know any more about this than you do, but

we're just going to have to get out and learn it.

Don't turn anything in, I just thought you might

get a shock this way." He said, "I got plenty of

shock!"

So we more or less loosely organized our studying.

Most of us assembled every night in one of the

apartments where the men took over the breakfast or

dining room and our wives took over the living room

or an adjoining apartment. We worked like dogs,

and we worked every waking hour. We would take a

break Saturday night about 11 o'clock and take our

wives to Oakland to the late, late movie for about

two hours. Then we'd come home and go to bed and

start working again the minute we woke up Sunday.

And with that effort, at the end of the first

semester, we were still way down, way down. Then

we got smart and took a couple of easier courses

for the second semester and concentrated on the

things we thought were most important in the civil

engineering field, and we all came right on up near

the top of the class.

But we had to write a thesis. The dean and several

of the professors told me that we were doing a heck

of a lot more work than our predecessors. But we

didn't get a master's degree, we got a B.S. in

civil engineering. So I'm a B.S.-squared! That's

never bothered me. I don't think it would make a

34
point is to stretch your head, and they sure

stretched it!

But, you asked what choice? We took basically

civil engineering, because we didn't know any better. We had no instructions, or guidance, other

than what had happened in the past. And the facts

of life were that 1932 was the year of the pay

freeze, and there was a holiday of pay in July-we

didn't get paid. And there wasn't much travel

money. And they couldn't send us to the summer

school course because they didn't have any money.

As a result the Chief's office got clear out of

gear as far as cranking it up.

Q : And that's why the list of names had never gotten

: to the university?

. .4

A : Yes. And again, most people would have thought if

you got it all sorted out by the end of August

you'd be in good time, but school started on the

eighth of August, as I remember it. It was a

shocker. But anyhow, we took, to start with, what

I had come to the conclusion we ought to take,

after reading the remarks of the prior years, and

Dean Derleth had approved, and all the others

arriving after me just glommed onto that same

course.

In the spring we diverged a little bit, but

basically we were all taking civil engineering. I

called on the Division office in San Francisco and

with their advice selected a thesis studying the

movement of sand on the bottom of San Francisco

Bay. My 1929 classmate, Bruce Rindlaub,

this was a fine choice.28

thought

I thought it was a

good one too l And I thought we had it made because

we could ask the Division or District to get us

some real true samples from down there to work on,

and this would be better than anything anybody had

ever done. Mike O'Brien, with a straight face,

said, "That's a fine idea." Frank Cothran and I

were going to do it.29 Then Bruce Rindlaub

came--he'd been captain of A Company our first

class summer--and he said he’d found out about it,

and could he please join the team? Well, he was a

hard worker, so I said, "Sure, if he wants to do

it, let him in."

35
had this fine beautiful sand from the bottom of 

bay in it, but it took about three hours of runn

the water to

synchronized and built up to where they were real

the little ripples on the sa

doing something.

We had classes every morning so we could only r

the flume in the afternoon. So by the time we h

to quit, because we'd run out of time, we were j

at a point where it was time to really start taki

readings. We never got anything consistent. A

this went on and on, and we got up to -- well, yo

graduated in early May, the 15th of May, I think 

we got up to about the middle of April

thereabouts, and we were over there four or fi

days a week working with no consistent results.

Rindlaub finally came up with the idea that i

Frank Cothran and I would run this model in th

afternoons while he studied, he would take the d

and analyze it at night. It was a good effort, b

it was futile. We just never had -- the points 

the graph just never had any consistency -- 

looked like a shotgun blast. I didn't know what 

were going to do, and I said to O'Brien, "We're n

getting anywhere." He said, "I knew you weren

going to." I asked why he didn't tell me, and 

said, "I thought you'd learn something." I said

"I've learned a lot." (I got even with him. Year

later I was president of the Beach Erosion Boa

when he was a member. I had a lot of fun twistin

his tail about this thesis.) He told us that if 

would write up anything decent, he would give us 

passing grade because we had really worked pret

hard and tried. I said, "All right." I went hom

and got Frank Cothran. I said, "Look, we aren

going to graduate unless we jimmy this some way 

other in order to have something to turn in." 

agreed, so I said, "Okay, let's draw a curve a

let's write the equation of that curve. Then let'

work backwards and plot the points so we end u

with a curve." So we did, and we began feedi

this stuff to Rindlaub. Gradually it began to fa

into line.

One day he came busting into the lab and said

"We've got it, we've got it:" And he came up wit

our same equation. so we rushed the thesi

36
in.

said to O'Brien, "Everything up to the date of so

and so is a fact, but everything beyond that is

fiction." He said, "All right, I understand,

you'll get a passing grade." Bruce Rindlaub was so

intrigued with this thesis that he decided to ask

the Chief's office to let him stay another year and

continue the study. And they approved it.

The day before graduation, Bruce decided he'd run

it himself just to see how pretty it 'would come

out. And he ran the flume and nothing fell on the

curve, which was to be expected. And he came

around the next morning and accused me of being a

crook. I told him, "You're right, I am. M.P

O'Brien knows it, however. We've done this

together. We had to do something in order to

graduate." Well, he was mad still. He didn't

speak to me again until once [when] I ran across

him in the Philippines in World War II. We got

shortchanged. We did a lot of work. It didn't do US a bit of harm, and I doubt seriously whether it

makes any difference. But we are B.S.-squared and

not anything else.

Next you spent some time with the Civilian

Conservation Corps.30 What do you recall about

that assignment? Were you loaned to the CCC?

I came back from California by car with temporary

duty orders to Vicksburg, to the laboratory [the

Waterways Experiment Station], to get some

experience.31 And we drove through Vicksburg,

and I almost went by the lab and reported in and I

thought, no, we've got two weeks' leave coming.

I'll wait till the leave's over before I report

down

So

to

w e went to Birmingham, and then we wen

Clearwater, Florida, to the beach, and had

a nice visit. And about four or five days later I

got a telegram from my father saying, "Wherever you

are, report to -- call in to -- the Corps area

command up in Atlanta immediately." So he wasn't

sure where I was and probably thought I was AWOL or

something. But anyhow I called up Corps area and

they said, 'Report to Fort McClellan tomorrow.'

So here I am down in Florida with my family and I

have to report to Fort McClellan tomorrow, which

left them stranded. Fortunately, my brother-in-law

37
in, and I was assigned to CCC duty with a compan

to be located in a camp in Blue Mountain,

Mississippi. And they were leaving by rail three

days later, so I had to get the car back to where

my family was staying in Birmingham.

I got on the train at Fort McClellan with a bunch

of boys and the captain who was commander and 

couple of other officers -- this man Whatley was

one of them -- and we went to Blue Mountain,

Mississippi, where we established a camp on the

grounds of a girls' college in June of '33. It was

an odd situation. Fortunately, the dormitories

weren't occupied in the summer for they didn't hav

summer school in those days. It was a little dink

place, but we set up the camp, and it was pretty

good experience. These were all southern boys,

largely farm boys. They needed the money. They

felt pretty big for their britches, and there

wasn't too much discipline, but we had to instill

it. And what we really were was the administrativ

team -- see to it they were housed and fed,

disciplined and cared for medically, and so on.

The Forest Service or Soil Conservation, or so

state agency, furnished supervision of the work.

Q : But you were Engineers who were doing the other

work?

A : At that moment I wasn't an Engineer, I was an

available officer. And there were about six or

eight of these camps within a radius of about 3

miles. Several of us had our wives come up to the

little town of Ripley about 15 miles away. They

had a hotel there where the wives could stay, an

their room and board was $30 a month. About two or

three times a week we'd get to go in and spend t

night with our wife, whoever could get away.

I learned more about leading people and gettin

people to do things without beating them over th

head. The first problem was a boy one night who'd

gotten too much to drink, and he was really drunk,

oh boy. It took about ten people to grab him an

hold him. The company commander had something to

take care of it and went to get some ipecac. Now I

had never seen ipecac used, and he said, "Hold his

mouth open." And somebody held his mouth open and

38
:

throat. Then he said, Now you can turn him

loose." And sure enough, this had a remarkable

effect. We never had any more drunks the whole

time I was there. He lived, of course, he was just

feeling kind of bad.

About the middle of August I got orders to go on to

the Engineer School, which is where I had been

going anyway. Yes, I had a siege of CCC, and

that's why I thought in terms of getting reserve

officers who had been on that kind of duty when I

was activating the 79th Engineers, because you did

learn the living, housing, and eating business; and

discipline, which lets you get started so you can

do some training.

Q l

l Where did you go from there?

A :l Next we went to the Engineer School for the regular

company officer's course, which was an interesting

year, not terribly head-stretching. Then I went to

West Point as an instructor in military engineering

and military history.

At West Point, Westmoreland was one of my students,

Throckmorton, Fred Clarke, Abrams.32 Fred Clarke

was the class of '37; Throckmorton, '35; Abrams and

Westmoreland, '36. Goodpaster was a cadet.33

His father-in-law was an executive officer at the

military academy later on. I knew his wife, his

father-in-law, and mother-in-law as well as him.

Abrams was one of the best soldier's soldiers, I

believe. Later on I visited him around the world

from time to time on inspection or one thing or

another, and he impressed me every time. He was

down to earth and knew what he was doing, knew how

to get it done. Of course, looking at it from the

viewpoint of Vietnam, none of them look too good

because that wasn't the right kind of war to be

in. When you go back to it, there hasn't been a

war since World War II that we've tried to win.

We've tried just to not lose them, and that makes a

helluva difference. You know, in a football game

like last week's Rose Bowl [January 1978] one team

was beating the daylights out of the other. But

then they decided to be conservative and just hang

on, and zingo, two touchdowns and the other team

39
same way in the military. You can see it too often.

While I was an instructor at West Point -- I'm not

sure if it was the summer of '35 or the summer o

' 36 -- but another officer and I in the engineerin

department at the military academy were sent up 

Cornell to get ready to increase the amount of

instruction on concrete that was given to the

cadets, the first classmen. It wasn't very much,

even when we increased it. The department had

decided they were going to use the textbook of

Urquhart and O'Rourke from Cornell,34 and so we

were sent up there to take some courses during

summer school and get to be the experts to teac

the other instructors.

When we got up to Cornell, we found to our surpris

that Urquhart and O'Rourke were putting out a new

edition and were pretty well wrapped up in that an

weren't doing much teaching that summer. I

conceived the idea that we would volunteer to

proofread the book for them, if they would in turn

answer completely and fully anything we were

questioning or brought up. This turned out to be 

fine deal for us, I don't know about O'Rourke and

Urquhart.

The way it worked out, we sat down in our room

where we were boarding or staying, I forgot what,

and proofread that book for every nit-pick becaus

 we knew the cadets would nit-pick and ask

questions. About twice a week we'd make a date

with Urquhart and go over to see him with our

voluminous notes, and he'd try and answer the

questions. Well, he would sometimes answer the

questions that were probably satisfactory to me

but I knew I couldn't take that and explain it t

the cadets, so we'd dig into him some more. And

finally, quite often, he'd say , "Thats's in

O'Rourke's part of the book, let me get him." So

he'd disappear out the door and come back with

O'Rourke and O'Rourke would do the same thing.

Finally, I would just say, "I don't believe I can

explain that." O'Rourke said several times, "I'm

sorry, I don't blame you. In all honesty, I just

took that from so and so's textbook. I can't

d

ive

l

you any better answer than that. I just bodily

ifted it." That gave me a little more insight

40
..

.

,**

into the textbook world! It worked out real well,

and we worked hard at it. We did them a lot of

good, I I'm sure, in proofreading. They corrected

things where their language was not too clear. We

went back and then had to teach the other

instructors what we thought we had learned about it

and at least show them the tricks of the trade in

the book.

While at Cornell, to get a little bit of variety, I

took introduction to engineering geology. It was

extremely interesting because Cornell' is in the

Finger Lake country, and I got interested in

pulling fossils out of the side[s] of cliffs. The

course was strictly a child's guide to geology, but

it opened up the subject. I later used information

and enjoyed it tremendously in going around Alaska.

The next summer when the cadets had gone, Colonel

Mitchell called me and said, “Look, I think there's

a chance for us to get some of the equipment from

Passamaquoddy, which was then just closing down,

and they had a concrete lab.35 He told me that

if I could talk them out of any that was declared

surplus and bring it down, he'd try to set up a

better laboratory arrangement. This, of course,

was glorious, and I took off with my wife and we

drove up there. I saw Passamaquoddy grinding to a

halt and winding down and saw the lab stuff and was

particularly impressed with the man who ran it, a

man named [Charles E.] Wuerple.36 And I came

back and recommended highly that we get the whole

thing and that we bring Wuerple, too, and that in

order to finance this we recommend to work a deal

for a laboratory established at the military

academy jointly for the use of training cadets and

for the North Atlantic Division. I don't remember

the details, but it worked. We got a new

building. We got Wuerple, and we got his lab. He

ran a concrete lab for the North Atlantic Divisio

and any other Corps activity, and we got the use of

the facility for training cadets. We got the

backing of him and his staff to help us when it

came to putting this instruction over. That went

on for some little time. Finally they moved

Wuerple away, I think up to Mount Vernon, New

York. They just left it as a cadet laboratory

without any real research. Eventually, Wuerple

became the paid executive for the concrete

41
was his headquarters.

Passamaquoddy was the tidal project. It was a bi

project during the Depression at the same time the

first started to build the cross-Florida barg

canal -- those were the two big things. It's righ

up on the border between Maine and Quebec, Canada

and there's a tidal switch of.25 or 30 feet. The

were going to control that and build a series o

lakes and switch from one to the other. It was 

good project. It cost a lot of dough. It wa

definitely a New Deal thing. It was to make wor

and of course it would have some benefits. Th

major trouble was there wasn't any industry up i

that part of Maine that could economically use th

power. The cost of transmitting the power fro

there to the Boston area was really one of th

obstacles to making it a real successful project

But they had a brand new lab. They were makin

freezing and thawing tests on the concrete an

things like that, SO it would be important in tha

area. Wuerple was an outstanding expert in th

thing, so it was effective.

Q : How would you compare West Point when you returne

as an instructor [1934-1938] with West Point whe

you were a cadet?

A: Well, let me set a little background for you. M

father had been offered an opportunity to get bac

to West Point early in my cadet life, and he ver

kindly turned it down. About a month before 

graduated, about the first of May, he accepte

another offer and as executive officer was th

number two guy to the superintendent, not on th

cadet side but on the post side. The executiv

officer supervised everything for the super

intendent but the cadet activities. He staye

there as executive officer clear up to the earl

part of '35, through a couple of superintendents.

When I went back up there in '34, I was teaching m

brother in the class of '35. We had a weekl

Sunday dinner at my folks' house, and we made 

deal that nothing said on that occasion could b

used by anybody else in any way that would tra

anybody. So my father could talk about things fro

the administration viewpoint, I could talk from th

42
the cadet level.

but we carefully

heard. We had a

going on. As far

heck of a lot of

We had quite a combination there,

avoided using anything that we'd

pretty good concept of what wa

as I'm concerned, there wasn't 

change between the time I was a

cadet and those times. As far as the honor syste

and what it was trying to accomplish and all tha

business, I was satisfied with it. I had a good

feeling about it at that time, and I don't think

there was any difference -- the honor code was

working the same way pretty much. The size was

about the same. There was not too much difference.

Q l

: And from West Point you went to the Command and

General Staff School?

A :

l Command and General Staff School37 was really a

shock because it was a tough place to get into.

People were competing for the assignment all t

time. I wasn't competing. I was just a

lieutenant, and there was one other lieutenant.

The personnel officer from the Chief's office cam

up to West

said, " I

Leavenworth

But it was

really made

Point one day and took me aside and

think we're going to send you to

as a student." I nearly dropped dead!

real fine and a wonderful thing. It

Q : Did they give you a reason for picking you out?

A: I don't know why they did.

Q : It wasn't usual for an officer of your rank, was it?

A: Oh no.

two-year

In the prior years there had been a

course, and there had been a couple of

suicides at Leavenworth, not doing too well at it

It was real talent they were collecting there. The

other lieutenant was an Air Force man,nonacademy,

named [Paul] Hansell, who was considered the finest

theoretical tactician in the Air Force, at least

the other people always told us this, people lik

Tommy White, a future Air Force chief of staff. 

was extremely young. As a matter of fact, during

the year enough people were promoted to major an

lieutenant colonel who passed on captain's bars

and major's leaves, and even lieutenant colonel's

leaves, that I never bought any of that insignia.

43
I don't know how it happened. I don't know why. I

don't know whether the soldier's medal had anythin

to do with it. I don't know whether I had gotten a

good report out of West Point or what, but it was

fine as far as I'm concerned, it made a big

difference.

In the "W" row at Leavenworth, when I was there as

a student, I can't remember a single one of the 15

to 18 officers in that row who didn't become at

least a brigadier general in World War II. There

were lieutenant generals, major generals. Tommy

White, Chief of Staff of the Air Force at a later

date, came out of that class.38 He was from the " " W row. It just happened to be the right time

frame, and then the war came along at the same time.

Incidentally, you look at my career and you'll

find, except for my first year at Mobile, I went

half of my career on the military side and in

schools and the other half more or less on the

construction side. The end of World War II was the

dividing line. I was 16 years coming back to a

District and then another 20 years on the other

side.

Getting to Leavenworth, in those days at that age

couldn't help but advance my chances. I worked

pretty darn hard, and another thing was, as a

lieutenant, I didn't think I knew everything. The

worst problem you have with an Army school is the

more expert you are in a subject, the less you

think of it. Because you think you know better

than the instructor, and the instructor is trying

t o put across a point, not fight the issue. I

found that out when I was an instructor at

Leavenworth. I got together with Hansell, he lived

downstairs, and studied with him every time we

thought there was going to be an Air Force problem,

and he studied with me every time we thought it was

going to be an Engineer problem. We both did

poorer in those two subjects than we did in all the

other subjects. You think you know it and so you

don't have an open mind, listening to what they are

trying to tell you.

44
they gave us a little black looseleaf pocket

notebook. They told us that you could have it open

any time. There was no test, exercise, or map 

problem that you couldn't open that thing. so you

could write anything in there you wanted to. But

they had one hell of a lot of subjects! I'd sit

down with a man named Jimmy Green, class of '27,

Signal Corps.39 He was a real brain. He later

became professor of electricity at the military

academy after the war. He and I studied together

every night. We'd write things down on a big pad

and then we'd sit and condense them, and we'd brief

them to where one letter meant a whole word. By

the time you had done that three or four times and

put them in the little black book, you didn't need

the book. It did give you a crutch, a feeling of

satisfaction, but the exercise of doing it was what

made you learn it. I've found that true in my

speeches and things like that since. I like to

outline a speech, then write it, and then reoutline

it, then put it on cards -- I don't look a t the

cards very often, by that time I don‘t need them.

Q : Should we move on to your service in southeast Asia

during World War II?

A : Well, we haven't gotten to Hawaii again yet.

Q : With the 3d Engineers?

A: Yes. It was a three-year tour in those days, but I

got sent back to Leavenworth after half a tour,

which made me disgusted. I would rather have

stayed in Schofield Barracks than have gone back to

Leavenworth.

Well, again, about three months before graduation

from Leavenworth, I got a letter from the Chief's

office asking if there were any cogent reasons why

I should not be sent to the Philippines. I went

back to them very happy and said I thought it was a

fine idea. I'd never been there. My father and

mother were there. M y father was commanding

general at Corregidor, and it would be nice to be

stationed near them once. I thought I could learn

something and be of more value to the Army. It was

just fine.

45
gy y g

to Hawaii. I sent them about

telegram with all the reasons:

three pages o

I had been there a

a boy and gone to high school there: I'd been t

the university; I‘d seen it; I knew the islands

the people, and there wasn't much more I coul

learn on that; and I needed to get more broadenin

by going to the Philippines. They came back with

"Your telegram noted. Your orders to Hawaii ar

being issued."

But there's another thing I've learned. Almos

every time that I tried to fight real hard agains

doing something proper authorities had decided 

should do and got overruled, it turned out to be i

my best interest. So I've always tried to tell th

young officers, "Sure, try and manage your caree

to a degree, come up with what you'd like to do

but don't fight the problem. If they've got a goo

reason for doing something, go ahead and do i

because it will probably turn out better for yo

than if you don't." At the time they had a reason

I'm sure, balance of the number of lieutenants o

captains or something. I was going to be a captai

by that time by act of Congress. Had I gone to th

Philippines and stayed the three-year tour, I woul

have been in there when the war started, and 

would have had a lot different career. You didn'

get out of the Philippines by the time the wa

started. Most everybody over there got captured o

killed or wounded and that completed their activit

for four years or so. Some of them overcame it

but it sure would have made a difference.

So I went to Schofield Barracks. One thing it di

do , it got me away from where there was any moder

equipment. We were still -- my first unit a

Benning had been a mule-drawn outfit. We had 

mule-drawn pontoon train. We had mule-drawn escor

wagons. I was a mounted officer, and I had thre

horses in my company. The modern World War I

equipment just didn't get to Schofield by 1941. I

fact it wasn't getting much of any place. W

didn't have much. As things began to stir an

build up they got them other places, but a

Schofield we were still running around with littl

dozers and trucks. It was good training, and yo

had good weather, and you could get at it, and i

46
py 

division.

Most of the younger officers complained that the

training wasn't the proper kind, they weren't

getting enough time, or there was too much emphasis

being given to this or that, or the troops were

dissipated by special duty or athletics. We in the

3d Engineers kept griping along with all the rest

of them. One night Lieutenant Paul Yount,40 who

had been an instructor with me at West Point and

was now the adjutant of the 3d Engineers (he later

became chief of transportation, as a major

general), and I were sitting there griping, and our

wives said to us, "If you're going to do all this

griping, why don't you do something really

positive, why don't you write a letter to the chief

of staff of the Army and tell him how he ought to

be running this thing? You sit here and tell each

other.“

Well, they kind of stirred us up a little bit. So

we did. We sat down for two or three weeks at

night and wrote a letter to the chief of staff of

the U.S. Army, through channels, making

recommendations for improvements in training, as,

for instance, when a unit goes on tactical training

they should get special duty people back in order

for them to go as a unit. It would produce better

training if the tactical units were separated from

the administrative side, because tactical units

ought to be able to get up and go without leaving

key people behind to run the bakery and the

administration of the post. There ought to be

bigger training areas that they could move to.

They ought to move there for months at a time, not

days at a time. And we went through a lot of

recommendations. It wasn't bad,

good idea.

it really was a

We put it all together and addressed it through the

commanding general of the 24th Division, which was

Hawaiian Division. We put it in the mailbox and

right after we put it in the mailbox, we lost our

nerve. We thought, oh boy, I hope somebody loses

that. Days went by and nothing happened. Then

about two weeks later I was in my orderly room and

somebody came in and said, "You're wanted up at

47
up to the division headquarters and who should be

sitting there looking a little white but Lieutenant

Yount. And I thought oh, here we go. So we went

in and reported. The commanding general asked us,

"Did you write this suggestion to the chief of

staff of the Army?" We said, "Yes, sir." He said,

"You had the unmitigated gall to do that?" "Yes,

sir." "Well, are you sorry you did it?" We both

said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Well, I'm not. It's

pretty good: What you've said here is well worth

thinking about. You did at least have sense enough

to put it through channels, so we can't get you for

that. I think it's fine, and I want to put an

endorsement on, saying that these items merit

consideration." Oh, what a relief:

This was about 1940, and near the end of the war I

received through channels about the 25th

endorsement back to me, my copy of it stating that

"The chief of staff of the Army appreciates your

interest and your thought but believes the letter is redundant. The ideas expressed therein have to

a large extent already been adopted by the Army.

We appreciate it," and so on. It's true, they

had. Much of the development in the early days of

'41 and '42 was along the general lines of what we

had suggested in the letter, but it had never

gotten to where it would do any good. But it

happened, and we were dumb enough to try it. We

didn't get skinned.

Hawaii? I don't know. I got a lot of experience

being football referee in the Schofield Barracks

football league. We did a lot of planning on

demolitions in the hills and the tunnels. YOU know

they bring the water for the pineapple and sugar fields through the mountains because the heavy rain

falls on the other side. So they have tunnels to

bring it right through. Well, we were afraid the

invader would land over there and come through

those tunnels. Every so often we were sent to

explore them and make up our mind what size charges should be used to destroy them. The thing that

always intrigued me was that when you got there to

the gate, the man who unlocked the gate to let you

go in, and who would come along, couldn't speak

English, but he'd point out the chamber where the

explosives were to go. He knew all about it. He

was a native-born Japanese, inevitably.

48
'40, when the Japanese fleet disappeared from sight

someplace. We were on that alert to a large extent

from there until I left the first of February of

8 41 . That's too long to be on an alert. It loses

its effectiveness. But at that time the naval

commander restricted the number of ships that could

be in Pearl Harbor. The dawn patrol went out every

morning from the Air Force. We had people guarding

bridges all around the island. But as I say, it

went on too long.

The thing that always bothered me about Pearl

Harbor, I'm sure there was economical and political

reasoning behind it, but when I sailed out of there

on a transport on the first of February, there

couldn't have been a Pearl Harbor because there

weren't that many ships allowed in there, maybe one

or two at a time. There couldn't have been the

problem of not being able to get the ammunition out

because we were on the kind of alert which had

ammunition by the guns. There were several forms

of alert -- in one case you'd have all your guns

out and manned and the ammunition there, and in the

other you'd have just the opposite, with all the

ammunition protected and put away someplace. So it

was almost impossible for me to comprehend ten

months later, when I sat in my living room at

Leavenworth and listened on the radio to the story

of the attack. The complete change from February

1941 -- the radar not working too well, the ships

all being in Pearl Harbor, the sailors being on

leave. I just couldn't believe it.

Now, our little boy, who was then three years old,

was in the living room playing around when the

radio began sputtering out this stuff, and we had

to turn off the radio,

saying, "They're

because he kept crying and

sinking my ships, I saw those

ships, I know those ships." I had to go next door

to listen. To me it was just as hard to absorb

that this could go on as it was to him. I'm

convinced, without really knowing facts, that the

powers that be had complained that with the ships

being at sea, and the sailors being kept away, they

weren't selling enough goods, and that we had to

reverse this posture. Why were on an

anti-sabotage alert,

they

I don't know, but there sure

49
circumstances of ten months earlier. It could hav

happened, but not that badly.

During the latter half of 1940, the 3d Engineer

had the opportunity to do a little troo

construction, and I found out more about what th

troop units can build or not build, can do rapidl

or only slowly. Frankly, I was probably better of

mentally going back to Leavenworth as an instructo

than staying in Hawaii. Certainly, as far as my

long-term future was concerned, I was better of

going back to Leavenworth then than to be sittin

out on Bataan or Oahu.

Q : And you got orders to go back with no reason? Yo

said that was after a year-and-a-half, which wa

unusual.

A : I know what the reason was. The acceleration o

building up new units in the States was going on

and they were trying to get the instructors awa

from Leavenworth that had been there, so they wer

bringing in fresh blood, and I was probabl

replacing a lieutenant colonel who went to colone

immediately; I was a captain. And he probably wen

off -- well, I know he did -- he went off an

modernized the armored engineer training. That wa

it, but they didn't ever tell you.

When I went back to Leavenworth as an instructor

classes were up to 800 for only two months at 

time, SO there was a terrific turnover, plus th

commanders and general staff of the new division

came there for a month of schooling. I really go

to know by sight, sound, or reputation just abou

everybody in the Army. It was an unusua

opportunity with the four years at West Point an

then a break and then another four years at Wes

Point, followed by a year in the Leavenworth clas

and then this Leavenworth instructor business. 

sometimes have a little trouble separating th

experiences. .

Most of the instructors who had been there when 

was a student were still there, but within si

months most of them were gone. For instance

within six months, I became the responsibl

50
- i

i

shore and airborne operations. As an example, 

became a director of the Army Cooperative Insurin

Association [an insurance company] and in less tha

six months I was the senior in time on the boar

and became the president. And that meant 

received $25 a month as president, and so I had t

get a Social Security card. So -my Social Security

card dates way back to '41 or '42, which is fa

earlier than most regular Army military.

Also, I got the chance to go around the countr

observing and learning from the exercises an

training going on to come back to Leavenworth t

improve our presentation. We were by this tim

running out of time and trying to teach too many

people, SO we were doing it by demonstrations to a

large extent. We put on an act, a four-hour act,

with pretty much no ad-libbing but you didn't stand

up there and read your lines, you just went ahead

and talked, and went over certain ideas. This was

true particularly in both the landing on th

hostile shore and the airborne operations -- both

of which were in the wave of the future, and for a

captain or major of Engineers to be the instructor

heading those teams was quite something.

But again, I'd hit there at just the right time to

be senior in instructor time and to move up the

ladder as more experienced instructors departed.

As I have said, I met lots of future leaders and

remet many I had known before.

Jimmy Gavin, one of my West Point classmates, was a

student at Leavenworth when I was an instructor and

came around to see me, spent a whole Sunday

afternoon talking with me, wanted my advice. He

wanted to get into airborne, but he didn't know

whether he should do it or not. I told him that

was the last thing I wanted to do. I wanted to be

a generalist rather than a specialist. But I said

Vf you are ever going to do it, do it this

minute. Don't wait till tomorrow. This is the

time. It may not amount to a row of beans, but if

it is going to, jump now/ This was about late

'41, and he did. He got out of that school when he

graduated akd immediately

business and got into it.

applied for the other

it.

And he did right well at

He was asking me about going airborne because

I was running the exercise on it.

51
running the exercise on landing on a hostile shore,

it affected the next moves that came along. So why

do these things happen? Darned if I know. But

they're interesting.

Q : Do you mean a next move in terms of immediate or

longer range?

A : No my next

whit happened

stage, when I went from Leavenworth,

to me, how I got away from there.

For instance, I was on a transport that was

participating in an exercise in amphibious training

off Chesapeake Bay* in fact it was in hostile

submarine waters, so I got a little ribbon to put

on8 American theater. I went for a month to the

largest maneuver ever conducted on U.S. shores --

the September 1941 maneuvers in Louisiana. There

were many things wrong with them, but they were a

real training ground. Eisenhower was a lieutenant

colonel during that maneuver.4l I was a captain,

and I got selected -- why, I don't know, tickled me

to death -- 1 got issued a driver, and a command

car. and a case of rations, and went for a month to

the maneuver. And so I went on both sides: I saw

everything, wore a little green armband so I could

go anyplace.

I got particularly interested in General George

Patton.42 I knew George Patton wouldn't pay much

attention to the rules, and one day I noticed that

his outfit, the 2d Armored, which was in eastern

Texas8 had disappeared from the other side's

intelligence map. They didn't know where he was.

I began thinking, he won't pay any attention to the

rules. The rules' say you won't use commercial gas

stations, you won't use commercial eateries. But

when he wants to accomplish something, he'd just

ignore that. So what is he going to try and do?

And I looked at the map awhile, and I said, '*He's

going to try and come in and capture Shreveport

from the rear -- some portion of his division, he

can't get his division there, but he'll come in and

make a show, and the newspapers will publish it,

and Patton will be the hero.“ So I went to find

out if that was happening.

I drove up to Shreveport in the command vehicle --

it was a panel truck really -- and when I got there

52
the roadmap, and picked out the road from east

Texas, and told my driver, "Let's go down this road

about 30 miles." We went down the road, and hadn't

gone very far, when suddenly we came to a convoy.

Standing up in the first armored car was Patton

holding his hand up and saying, "Halt!" so I told

the driver to stop and we stopped. He called me

over and said, "What are you doing here?" "Well,"

I said, "I'm observing the exercises." He asked m y name and I told him and he said, "How come you're here?" "Well," I said, "I'd rather not answer

that, sir." He said,

will

"That's just the reason you answer it."

figured

I said, "All right, sir. I

that General Patton would be coming in

here." He said, "Well, do you know who I am?" I

said, "Yes sir, you're General Patton." He said,

"Yes, that's right. How did you happen to figure

I'd be here?" I said, "I figured that you'd want

to make a big show and look like you had won the

war and you wouldn't let the rules bother you too

much, s o you’d be here with something fast-moving

that could get in there and make a big showing."

He said, 'Yes, you figured that all out?" I said,

"Yes, sir." "Well," he said, "I'll tell you what.

We're going to bivouac down here in about two

miles. You come on and spend the night with us.

I'll let you sleep under our command vehicle with

me." That was really a great privilege to sleep

under his command car with him, but he just wanted

to keep me where I couldn't get away and go tell

anybody. So I joined his convoy, and the next day

we entered Shreveport and the papers spread it all

over. It really gave me good insight into George

Patton. I'd had some knowledge of him before, but

now I knew a lot more about him.

later and was helpful. This showed up

I learned a lot in that

month-long maneuver. It was a real lesson to most

of the staff to realize they couldn't go night after night, day after day, 24 hours, they had to take some breaks, bring in the number two guys and

so on. Basically, it was just an exercise in

living, there wasn't any real shooting. There

wasn't a whole lot of marvelous strategy or tactics, but it was three weeks to a month of just

plain living it out, and it was damn good experience because we hadn't had anything like that

in a long time.43

53
see some of the amphibious Engineer troops traini

in New England and see what was happening.44 A

this was in July of '42. The commandant of t

school called me in when I was to be sent on th

trip and said, **Now I want to tell you something

You're not going to get away from here. You'

going to stay here.. You're going to be 

instructor here for a long time yet. And if y

try and get somebody to ask for you and I find o

about it0 I'll cut your throat. Now do you want 

go under those terms?" I said, "Yes, sir, I thi

it's a good idea." He said, "I think it's a go

idea, too, but I don't want you going and trying 

sell yourself/ I said, "All right, sir, 

won't/ So I went off on about a two weeks' trip

observed maneuver& went to observe the amphibiou

Engineers up in New England, went to the Naval Wa

College, came back about the first week in August

And I reported to him and told him what I'd se

and learned and said I had not made any effort 

get transferred. He said, "All right, I accep

that."

About a week later I got an urgent call to repor

\ to the commandant's office. I walked in and h

said, V want you to know I don't think you d

this, but you are leaving today with both winte

and summer uniforms and you'll report to Washingto

tomorrow morning, and I don't hold it against yo

because I don't think you had anything to do wi

it? So I got all excited and took off thinking

oh boy, I've got to win the war.

I got to Washington, and I found out what ha

happened. There was an organization called th

Amphibious Corps, Atlantic Fleet. It was a [Navy

organization and it had controlled [the 1s

Infantry Division and] the 9th Infantry Divisio

and some Marine troops [the 1st Marine Division] t

train them in developing, improving# and becomin

experts in amphibious operations. The Army ha

become disappointed with the state of [amphibious

training.... So the Army had come up with the ide

of having the 3d Infantry Division on the Wes

Coast, a unit that had trained in amphibiou

operations, split their staff with the commander

Jonathan Anderson,45 and some top staff and som

54
their positions in the 3d Infantry Division.

They had been hurriedly assembled in some of th

temporary buildings at the War College, and the

realized about the middle of August they didn'

have any Engineers l And they said, @Where will w

find an Engineer that knows anything abou

amphibious operations?N They didn't particularl

want to take the commander away from the 3

Engineer Battalion, so one of the younger ones o

the G-3 staff that had come right out of th

Leavenworth class and had been ordered t

Washington for this Corps staff, a man name

Connor, Bert Connor+ whom I had taught as 

cadet

said,

(he‘s now retired as a lieutenant general)

8t I know the one can get. You ’ ve 

good Engineer out at Leavenworth who's teaching th

stuff, and he knows what it's about. Why not ge

him?" So bingo, that's why I'm there. And that'

where I say the connection camem

I got there and they couldn't tell me much. W

knew an amphibious operation [TORCH] was bein

cranked up, but we didn't know what they wer

trying to accomplishm We were just fishing around

but we gradually learned a little more. In about 

week they sent us down to Camp Pickett, Virginia

which was to be the location of the Corp

headquarters, and we began to get a littl

information on the areas that they were going t

attack l We knew nothing about anything on th

Mediterranean side, all we knew about was the forc

[the Western Task Force] commanded by Genera

Patton was going in on the West African side, an

we didn't know too much about it, but we just kne

thata And we knew that the troops couldn't kno

anything. They were not allowed to know where the

were going or anything like that. So we had to tr

and plan everything we could, and we had to try an

train them.

They began to move the 3d Division to the Eas

Coast, and the 9th Division was at Braggm I kep

pushing for some exercises to practice goin

ashore, even in Chesapeake Bay l We were very muc

restricted because there wasn't any landing craf

to amount to anything, and they finally said

55
tats t. 

p

said, "You've got to get these people out o

exercise.", So they -- I don't know who bu

somebody -- designated me to run a school in th

Nansemont Hotel in Virginia Beach, it's down in th

Norfolk area, partway out to Virginia Beach. Th

Navy had taken it over, and I was to go there for 

week. I was to run a school for the G-staff: G-l

G-2, G-3, and G-4; and a few more of the 2d Armore

Division who would be a part of this task force

They were expertly trained on the desert, but now 

was to train them in a week to be experts i

amphibious operations.

I went down to that hotel, and there wasn't a sou

in it but me. There were Marine guards that cam

around every now and then. Every new Marine guar

that came around and found me sitting in a roo

puzzling about what to do would raise hell becaus

nobody had told him there was anybody there, an

this went on. I got blackboards and lined up 

course. They reported in on Monday, and I had the

for six days. I had to try and teach them comba

loading of ships and how you make out your landin

plan and how you make out your boat loading plans8

and all this kind of business. It wasn't th

easiest job in the world because most of these

knew so much more about armor than I did that i

wasn't even worth talking about. But they didn'

know a thing about going in the water and comin

out again.

I preached and gave them some test exercises. W

got a transport and combat-loaded it with tanks

and Patton showed up to watch it. The first tan

lighters started ashore and one dropped his ram

too soon in too deep water and the tank went off

and that was the end of the exercise. We neve

unloaded another one. So they went to war withou

ever having practiced in calm, quiet water. Tha

it.

We had a little infantry exercise further [sic] u

the bay. They bashed up some lighters and the

told you, "All right, you will have that many fewe

when you go/' So that ended that# and we didn't d

the things you should do. I went down to For

Bragg and tried to see what we could do and decide

56
money to build mock-ups, nobody had any authority

to build mock-ups. So I said, "Okay, you build

them. I'll be the authority and we'll straibhten

it out afterwards." And they built several landing

craft mock-ups SO you could practice grasping the

gunnel and going over with your weapon, and they

built the sides of the ship with the cargo nets to

crawl down and get in the personnel craft.

I went back and wrote a request for the funds to

Army Ground Forces in late August, and about the

middle of September I got a letter back turning it

downe They said, "No, you can't do that. There's

not enough time left to use them and pay for the

thing." I went back at them once more and said,

48 No I thank you8 but they've been built. They're

worn out. They have done a lot of good. The 

troops are better trained than they were. Now

please get me off the hook." And so they came back

and authorized it after we had done it. But we did

get that much training in. It was scary. Somebody

had to know that there was a good chance the French

and the Spanish wouldn't really come in and clobber

us because it looked like they were just sitting

there ready to clobber us if they wanted to.

We tri&d to figure, what could we do to help these

unit commanders? So I conceived the idea of making

a model so you could take oblique pictures of it.

I conceived the idea of making a plaster of paris

model-of the--landing area in Fedala so that oblique

pictures of it would give an impression of what it

was going to look like from a little landing

craft.47 We worked pretty hard on that thing.

It's heavy when you make one like that, and we

carried it around to each battalion commander.

Couldn't tell him where it was, but we showed it to

him and gave him these pictures. You know, just

two weeks after they sailed we found out the Navy

had a rubber map facility up in Norfolk that made

those things8 beautiful job. We hadn‘t known it,

so we made it all out with this other# and we were

carrying it around. It would crack every now and

then. We accomplished some good, but it was far

less than we would have liked to provide.

About that time I got an offer from the corps and

division commander, General Anderson, that if I

57
division engineer. Well, this is what I had been

training for all my life, and it tickled me to

death. So I hurriedly sent the request up, and it

came back from the Chief's office saying, "Not

unless you can give him a job which calls for a

colonelcy, because he's going to be a colonel

pretty soon. We*re not going to send him with you

as a lieutenant colonel."

When Patton finally got ready to go, he decided'he

wasn't going to take the amphibious corps, and I

don't blame him. He was going to do it himself and

didn't need this extra headquarters. So we got

left. I got left hanging in the lurch. One thing

I asked for was, "Please don't send me back to

Leavenworth." So they said, "All right, we'll send

You up to Fort Belvoir, where you can wait to

command the next combat regiment that's activated

in the Corps." And that's how I got away from

Leavenworth.

Q : Was this when you assumkd command of the 79th

Engineer Combat Regiment?

A : I got up to Belvoir and got assigned to the

Engineer Replacement Training CenterR and they

asked, "What do you want to do?"48 I said, "I'd

like to be an assistant exec for the center and go

around and spend my whole time observing training

and making suggestions to you of where it could be

improved, or changed. or modified, provided you'll

let me have your lesson plans so I'll have

something to use when I activate a regiment." And

they said, "Well, that's a fair deal." So I spent

several weeks just going around looking at training

and making suggestions for improvements and changes

and in turn they gave me big stacks of lesson plans

which I carried with me.

When I was ordered to Salina to activate the 79th

Engineers, I couldn't find anybody who knew where

Camp Phillips was. so we went down through

Birmingham to have a couple of nights with Jeanne's

folks# and then went to Memphis, and I got smart

and went to the Second Army headquarters in Memphis

and found the Engineer section and said, "What

officers are-you going to give me besides brand new

OCS?" And they looked at me and laughed and said#

58
gp

officer in your outfit." I said, "You can't d

that to me." They said, "Yes, we can because it'

getting to the bottom of the barrel. It‘s no

early in December 1942, and there isn't anything.@'

So I said, "Couldn't you let me go through you

list of reserve officers that haven't been calle

to active duty and see if we can't find a few?"

They thought that was a fair deal and allowed me t

pick three. So I went through a big bunch o

records and picked three. I particularly picke

three who had been on CCC duty where they had gon

through this living operation, routine discipline

feeding, housing, and health, because I figured i

we could 'get some who could get us to livin

properly we might learn how to train properl

later. So we headed for Kansas. In Second Arm

headquarters they knew that Camp Phillips was nea

Salina. That's the first time we knew exactl

where we were going other than to Kansas. And w

got out there and, boy, it was a rough situation.

On the tenth of December 1942, I activated the 79t

Engineer Combat Regiment, Camp Phillips, Kansas

with a strength of one -- me! About two hour

later a young man stuck his head in the door an

asked where he could find the 79th Engineers and 

said, "Come on in, you're in them." His name wa

Lieutenant [Winfield A.] Mitchell and he was in th

cadre, and I said, "You‘re the first one here, s

you're the adjutant. Now sit down and tell me wh

else is coming in the cadre.*' So he did. Ther

were seven officers and about 110 men. He gave m

some fill-in on what kind *of people the othe

officers were, all young, pretty fine young men

With his help I picked out the supply officer, S-3

and so on. And sure enough, within the next 2

hours they began arriving. In the next week or s

we received one major and three captains, reserv

officers, which gave us a little experience, and w

got the rest of our officers, half of whom wer

just out of OCS and the other half had been ou

about six months. So we averaged about thre

months' experience.

Camp Phillips was raw. There was mud. We had t

Put our cadre to work primarily building duc

59
buildings were raw, they were just completed. The

leaked air. They were the cheapest form, but the

were livable. The officers‘ quarters, the BOQ

[Bachelor Officers‘ Quarters] had screenwire up a

the eaves: the frame dropped down over them to hel

keep out snow. But many a night I'd wake up wit

my head covered with snow. And the water bucke

would be frozen solid. We at least got to kno

ourselves but we had no equipment, nothing lik

that.

About three days before Christmas, before ou

fillers had arrived, I received a phone call from 

man who said he was the corps engineer of the 11t

Corps and that I was in the 11th Corps. Well, thi

was all interesting to know. He said, "We'd lik

to get you to help us out/' I said, "Yes, sir."

He said, "We want you to command a second regimen

simultaneously at Camp Phillips." And I said 

little more dubiously, "Yes8 sir." And he said

"It‘s the 366th Engineer Regiment, Genera

Service. It‘s all black. We don't know where th

cadre‘s coming from. We do know that the filler

are loaded aboard trains and en route to Salin

now. So we want you to take them, organize them

put them to bed, feed them, until we can locate th

cadre and who the commanding officer will be, an

so on. But in the meantime, you'll be commandin

both regiments. I said, "Yes@ sir," an

immediately sat down and tried to figure out wha

we'd do. I decided to cut my cadre in half an

leave Major [Walter] Schamel, my exec, running m

regiment, and I'd go over and run the other one

with half the officers and half the men in m

cadre. I thought the only way I was going to ge

real help was to go to the 94th Division; Genera

Malony.49 So first thing the next morning 

rushed over to see General Malony. His outfit ha

about six months' training by this time, and he wa

a very cooperative man and listened to my tale. H

said, "I know what you wantm You want bodies." 

agreed and he said, “How. many do you want? Wha

kind?" I said, "I want bodies that can feed

house8 and administer, as many as you want to giv

me8 but that's it." He said, "You‘ll have the

tomorrow morning." And the next morning I wen

over to the area of the 366th, and a lieutenan

60
y 

been a tactical officer at the military acad

when I was a cadet, and here he was far senior 

but he was reporting to me for this purpo

and it was a help. We got the beds in place, 

mess halls cranked up, and met the trains 

midnight in a blizzard. They had come through 

blizzard in Missouri and had no steam, no wate

and no food for over a day. So the most we co

do was to rush them into trucks and deliver them 

their warm barracks and feed them and put them 

bed. And we did and we didn't have any riot, 

they were a pretty sad-looking bunch. They wor

pretty well.

After about two weeks, we began receiving offic

assigned to the 366th, and just at the criti

moment0 when I didn't know how we were going 

handle us and them, too, we got word who 

commander was going.to be. The commander was to 

Colonel Keith Barney,50 division engineer of 

94th Division, and he was right there, and so 

reported and took over what became known 

“Barney's Black Beauties." And a very interest

item. Just before Barney took over, one of 

officers arriving was named Finley, he was 

captain, reserve, and he had been my first sergea

in the 3d Engineers at Schofield Barracks. I tr

to trade Keith Barney out of him for any thr

officers he wanted to pick and he said, Vf y

want him that much, I'll keep him." And he 

organized.that general service regiment that no o

in one battalion outranked Finley, so that Fin

became battalion commander, and to the best of 

knowledge when the war ended, Finley was 

lieutenant colonel commanding that same battalion.

As for the 79th Engineers, we had a tough tim

There were no weapons. We had to make wood

rifles in order to do any kind of tacti

training. We drew something like 21 M-1s 

qualify the entire regiment in the blizzards, a

snows, and sleet in Kansas. Nebraska blew by o

day and Oklahoma and Texas the other: But we d

qualify them. I learned a little abo

conscientious objectors. On the rifle range t

chaplain came up to me and said, "I'm sorry but 

have a conscientious objector here and

-

he won

61
shooting at a paper target?H 

said, "Okay# let's go." I put the chaplain on one

side and me on the other, and we discussed it with

this young man. He was fairly sincere. In fact I

think he was sincere but he hadn't known how to

declare himself until now. But he thought that if

he even shot at targets, this would indicate that

he was getting ready to shoot at something more,

which made a certain degree of sense. I finally

told him, I said, "Look8 what we're going to do,

we're going to talk to you, and I'm going to

squeeze your finger, and that thing is going to go

off. And when it goes off, it's going to scare

yob but you're not going to be shootin at

anything. You're just going to be shooting. If

you'll then try that a few times and find out you

can qualify, if you get qualified, I'll put you in

the medical detachment where you won't even be

issued a rifle." Sure enough, we got him

qualified. The chaplain talking on one side and me

squeezing on the other until he got to the point

where he was willing to do it, and he qualified

himself and was put in the medical detachment, and

that's the last I heard of him. We never got any

reasonable amount of equipment during the time I

was with them. We finally got rifles along about

May. We were changed from a combat regiment to a

combat group, the 1113th. One of the worst things

they did to us was take away our band. We had

developed a great deal of morale striding along

behind the band singing a song called "We are the

79th Engineers." But when we got converted, we

lost the band.

About the first of June I received a phone call

from the Chief's office, the personnel division,

and they said, "We've got good news for you. We're

going to send you to the first course of the joint

Army-Navy staff college." I said, "Well, what is

that?" And they tried to explain it to me. I

said, "How do I get out of it?" And the answer

was8 "You don't." "Well," I said, "this is -- I*ve

been training this combat outfit to go to France,

and it's pretty near ready. Why not go?" They

said, "Let us explain the requirements. The

requirements are for a colonel or lieutenant

colonel of Engineers under 40, experienced in

amphibious operations, and you're the only animal

62
Q : That's a good philosophy.

A 00 That's just something I think you ought to kee

harping on.

limits today.And I said okay, there I go. The

said they'd try to save the 79th -- the- 1113th -

for me* I got through with the course i

September, and they made a valiant effort, but I'l

come to that portion later. That took me away fro

Salina and put me in this joint Army-Navy staf

college.

Those are the two things we passed over yesterday

One thing more. Some of these things led me t

develop a policy or principle that I have bee

trying to sell ever since, particularly in dealin

with young officers. That is: have intellectua

curiosity. Take advantage of any chance to se

what the other guy. is doing. I am particularl

referring now to within the Corps of Engineers

You'll have troops here and a District over there

and these people don't pay any attention to wha

these guys are doing and vice versa. And I sa

just next week you may be there and you may b

here, so take advantage of every chance to go visi

projects, troop exercises, and talk with them an

find out what's happening. Get interested i

stretching your own head a little bit about suc

things as geology or permafrost or water. I'm no

saying to spend a lot of time studying it, but jus

take advantage of the opportunities to run into i

and find out a little bit. Later on, as deput

chief and Chief, I promoted that particularly whil

visiting troop units. I’d say 1 @'Well, you'r

missing a chance. There's a chance to see a bi

job in operation, and they'll answer you

questions. They'll show you around and be please

to have you* And if you stay in the Army and th

Corps of Engineers, someday you'll be running o

building one of those things."

Q : . Yesterday when we ended, you were talking abou

your assignment to the Army-Navy staff college. 

wonder if we could move on then to your assignmen

to the Southeast Asia Command and how you didn'

get back the command of the 79th Engineer Comba

Regiment. I have some specific questions to as

63
ggy yg g pp

of the Army--Navy staff college, because you were i

the first class.

A : I got up there in early June and my family wen

home to Alabama. The course was a brand-ne

development. It changed pretty radically afte

that first year. They started us at the Naval Wa

College at Newport, Rhode Island. Then we went t

the Air Force field at Orlando, Florida, where w

concentrated on the Air Force side. Then we wen

to Washington and our classes were conducted in 

building originally built for the Chief of

Engineers and taken over by the War Department an

subsequently by the State Department. They put u

to bed in an apartment just two blocks away near

the Lincoln Memorial, so we were right there

together. It was a four months' operation -- one

month at Newport, one month at Orlando, and tw

months there. There must have been about 50 people

in it.

We went to the Naval War College and this was a

eye-opener because if there was anybody

dyed-in-the-wool, if you want to call it that, or

fixed in their ways in those days, it was th

Navy. It was quite a shock to some of us. Ther

was a way to do it and that was it, period. But it

was a good training for all of us that were there.

You were forced to rub shoulders and noses with the

other people, and you could begin to understand at

least a little bit of why their concepts and

strategy and tactics were fixed in certain lines.

Q : You mean it was a real contrast to the Army's

school at Leavenworth?

A: To me it was. They hadn't gotten up to the modern

era as far as I was concerned. At least I didn't

think so. YOU did it their way, or you didn't get

the support, that was it in their minds. It was

interesting, it was at the source of a lot of the

business. Now this was in the summer of '43, so

this was the time that the war in the Pacific was

getting pretty hot. We had just gone back as far

as we were going and were starting to come the

other way. There was considerable controversy in

those days between the South Pacific and the

64
MacArthur commanded the Southwest Pacific, and 

were competing for means and goals and everyth

It was a time when most of us would have liked 

have had somebody come along and say, "This is 

way it will be done, here's the way to do it, 

this will work,” because we didn't know. It w

pretty touch and go.

We went to Orlando next. My family went down 

the beach at Daytona, and I got to go over th

for a couple of weekends, for Saturday night 

Sunday, which was nice. There they more or l

pointed our noses down the line of the Air Forc

concepts, some of which I had gotten 

Leavenworth,

Air

because in those days the Army and 

Force were one. but this was a m

concentrated deal. Then we went for two months 

the school in Washington. There the conclud

operation was about one month of dividing the c

into three different committees, each commit

headed by one of the services--Army, Air Force, 

Navy. The rest of us were scattered around 

there to balance it out.

What was intriguing to me, the exercise was sta

in the Pacific, and we were to find out how to t

a place there that was not yet taken in fact 

that it was obvious was being considered. So 

felt we were at least working on something pre

live. The interesting thing to me was that af

all this three months of effort trying to broad

us, and we get through and we present our thr

committees, they came out with an Army plan wh

the Army man was the chairman, a Navy plan wh

the Navy man was the chairman, and an Air For

plan. It was obvious that we needed this effort 

put us together because it wasn't easy. But to m

studying that and working on it as hard as we d

it made me admire even more the way MacArthur 

his crowd bypassed and developed, hopped, and ma

tremendous progress moving up there without run

head-on into the kind of thing that we had be

faced with. If they'd have tried to take th

place I'm talking about it would have b

tough--it was one of the Japs' better defen

areas, and it was bypassed. It died on the v

about a year after being bypassed. It was quite 

lesson as far as I was concerned.

65
Engineer for the ground forces at Fort McNair, and

he was telling me that he was saving the 1113th

Group for me.51 If I could get free, I could

take it to Europe. One day about the first of

September--this course ended about the middle of

September ~-1 got told that General Wedemeyer wanted

to see me.52 I knew who General Wedemeyer was.

He was in plans in the Pentagon at that time. He

was a brigadier general and was pretty well known,

but I didn't think he even knew who I was, and he

probably didn't. I reported to his office and he

sat me down and said he had some very interesting

news for me. He had just come back from Quebec,

where there had been a conference with the British,

a combined chiefs type thing, and Mountbatten had

been there, and they had decided to set up a new

command out in the India-Burma-China area,

Southeast Asia Command.53 This would be

commanded by Admiral Mountbatten, and there would

be a joint staff--Army, Navy, Air Force; British

and American--involved. There was to be a British

major general of Engineers as the engineer in

chief, and his deputy was to be an American. It

would be set up in a slot for a brigadier general,

and would I like to go with him and fill that

slot. I said, "No, sir." He said, "What? Why?"

I said, "Sir, I activated the 1113th Engineer

Combat Group, and I got them ready, and I thought

we were going to go win the war in Europe. They're

holding it for me to go back to, and this to me is

more in line with what I have been spending my life

getting ready for." "Well,"

differently.

he said, "let me put

it to You General Marshall has

decided that every graduate from this first joint

Army-Navy staff college will go to a combined

staff. There is a requirement for an Engineer

officer to fill this slot promptly. You are the

only Engineer officer in this class. It might lead

to being a brigadier general very promptly." (And

I didn't believe that.) “How would you like to go

with me?" And I said, "I'd love to!" So that's

how I got with that and it all leads back the same

trail.

Q : Do you mean that you had been preparing for a

combat position rather than a staff position?

66
the division engineer of the such and such division

and command that regiment. But I never quite made

it, and I was always disappointed that I didn‘t get

to db that, because that's what you had been

training for, at least I thought you had. This is

again where I was trying to control my own career

very unsuccessfully, and the way it turned out it

was completely in my interest.

Q : What were the major activities you were involved in

in the China-Burma-India [CBI] theater? Didn't you

go to India, where Desmond Harrison was the British

major general above you?54

A : Well, everything was hurry, hurry, hurry to get

there. The course ended and we had a couple of

weeks leave and then collected in Miami to get on

the airplane and fly over to win the war. I got to

Miami and sat around for a week or so waiting for a

ride. I had some other friends there, and each day

we'd think, well, if they're not going to send us

out today,

fishing.

let's go rent a boat and go out deep-sea

But each time we thought we had better be

handy for the call. So we finally got going. We

went down through South America and went from Natal

to Ascension Island, which was sure just a little

spot of nothing, and then on up into Accra. Then

we got on a C-47, and we went from there to India,

which took one heck of a lot of stops. We never

spent a night. We had to sleep in bucket seats.

We stopped for a meal once in a while and a bath,

but we just kept going. We got to Karachi in

Pakistan, and we thought, now we'll get right up to

New Delhi, but we just stayed.

After about three or four days we tried to find out

what was happening, but it was the old

hurry--up-and-wait deal. Finally somebody got wind

that we were down there, and so suddenly we flew

into New Delhi. So I reported to this British

major general. About that time General Wheeler,

U.S. Army, who had been out in that theater, had

moved over to Southeast Asia Command as the

principal administrative officer (PAO), and General

Harrison served under him, so I was in that

chain.55 I didn't stay in Wedemeyers chain.

Wedemeyer was in the military planning side.

67
yg

, 

y

that we were not going to take many Americans. We

were going to let the British carry the ball on

this. So I said, "You're looking at him. I'm

it/ He said, MNo, you are not. I've been serving

with your folks over in England, and you have far

better Engineer construction people than we have.

We're pretty good on troop planning and so on, but

you're far better than we are on the other. S o

what we're going to do, you're going to try your

best to get people who will fill these slots in

this organization, and the ones you can't fill then

I'll fill from the British side, but we'll get as

many good Americans as you can/ This was a

complete reversal from what I thought, but that's

what we tried to do, and we got a pretty good-size

staff and some pretty good people.

I was his deputy, and he was a good guy to work

for. He tried to smooth me over some in spots, but

he also backed me up frequently. It was pretty

tough because not only was I now into an

international organization, but I was into one

modeled on the British Royal Navy, and they weren't

a bit different from what I had run into up in

Newport. Their method of running a headquarters on

shore was just as if were on a ship. I mean

every night they picked up all the classified

papers of any kind and locked them in a safe. Not

individual offices, just the central one, SO that

the next day it would be an hour or two before you

could get your working papers back in your hands.

They had systems which were awful hard for we

Americans to accept. They had a basic principle of

writing a memo or staff paper or something and then

sending it around. And everybody would add a

little note, and they called it a minute. They

were running out of everything in India in those

days. They ran out of paper clips, so they used

thorns. The main supply in this was through the

British channels. They used little slips of

paper. They had a str,ing with a little piece of

metal on it. You stick the metal through the paper

and then you would turn it flat and it would hold

it. There would be a big stack of minutes. They

were all done longhand so that I couldn't read half

68
anything. To me it seemed these things just ke

circulating. I never saw anybody take action 

anything. It was somewhat of a surprise.

One day I decided I was going to correct this, so 

found a paper that I thought was something we oug

to do something about right then. So I took a

these little pieces of paper and threw them in t

wastebasket, and on the basic paper I directed th

we do so and som And it took them about a month 

straighten that out. I guess I probably got 

lesson from it, but at any rate they kept right 

using the same system, so I didn't gain much, b

we began to understand it better. They wanted 

do well.

Our PA0 in the engineer division was British, wh

I would call a warrant-officer type, and he h

been indoctrinated in the military so long that 

was some deal; you had to learn how to live wi

it. It was a little hard to learn how to live wi

it, but I finally deduced that the main thi

Southeast Asia Command could do to help us real

win the war was to see if we couldn't support t

U.S. forces that were trying their best to get ov

to China. In my position I'd have some chance 

working on the government of India. It was 

separate entity, but it was responsible f

supplying the logistical support. Southeast As

didn't command the government of India. It was 

guest there, but it had to call on it for hel

The U. S. side was sitting there, and it didn

command the government of India. The government 

India ran their military and everything, just t

way they had always run it.

You've heard of the expression “red tape." Well, 

saw how that got started. I went to call on t

engineer in chief, India. His offices were 

one-story deal, concrete block, probably had be

there about two years and probably nobody h

whisked a feather-duster around in that time. Th

had tables instead of desks, and underneath 

tables there were stacks of documents tied up wi

red tape, literally red tape. And every <place 

looked and every office I went into [there] we

these stacks of papers.

don't know.

Who knew what was there, 

But there they were, tied up neatl

69
y 

how to work with them.

Q : Was it largely due to pressure from the Engineers

that the Indian government acted?

A: I think

[the Br

slightly

for the

chief.

we did some good. I worked primarily with

itish] Brigadier Billy Hastea& he was

olde?. than I and was the deputy for Air

government of India's military engineer in

He could see the point; I could see the

point. I could go from him to the Engineer section

of the China-Burma-India command, which was

American, in New Delhi and kind of work them

together. It wasn't easy, but we did accomplish

some things.

Q : How did it work having Engineers at so many

different levels- in the Southeast Asia Command and

under General Stilwell, and so forth?56 .

A : Theoretically at the top, although it really wasn't

the top, was Mountbatten. He was the junior

commander in the whole area in age, and he had

Southeast Asia Command. He was Supreme Allied

Commander. But his forces that he truly commanded

were a British general, the oldest general still on

active duty in the British army for the ground

forces; the oldest air force flier for the RAF

[Royal Air Force] support; and the oldest admiral.

It was a committee and they had to, you had to get

them all together, and to make it worse, Joe

Stilwell was Mountbatten's deputy.

Q : Was Stilwell's position clear?

A e0 Oh , yeso it was clear. It was very clear, but he

didn't give a hoot for the British. I think he

visited Mountbatten‘s headquarters twice in two or

three years, and he was his deputy: He was very

suspicious of anything they tried to do, and I

guess probably it worked both ways. He could have

been involved more, but I don't much blame him

because nothing was happening. You couldn't get

this committee to produce. The basic thing is the

British were a damn sight better in planning the

details of an operation. We were going to take

some islands over there in the Bay of Bengal. We

70
British-American Cooperation in CBI. Major General Raymond G.

Wheeler (r.1 consults with his boss, Lord Mountbatten.
staff would come up with the requirements, which

were so tremendous that nothing happened8 You

couldn't do it.

Where on the other hand, generally speaking, the

Americans would do a fair job of planning what was

required, if they didn't have enough, they'd make

do with less. And they'd go ahead and start, and

maybe they'd get clobbered, but at least something

would happen. Two or three times we got organized

for some exercise, for a real war effort, and just

then they decided to cross the Mediterranean, so

they took all the shipping away. So/it was a very

frustrating experience for the Mountbatten-level

people and a lot of the rest of us because every

time we'd have something that looked like now we're

finally going to do something, something would come

alongn-there'd be a storm, a bad battle someplace,

there'd be a requirement for shipping someplace--I

didn't know when they were going to land in Europe

but of course that withdrew all the shipping

again. You had Southeast Asia, which was

theoretically the overall command. But in fact,

frankly, Mountbatten couldn't order Stilwell to do

anything. He just had to try and suggest,

promote. I don't think he could really order any

one of these three major subdivisions to do

anything. He had to get them together. It was

frustrating for Wedemeyer. His job was to draw up

these plans.

Q

l

l How would you characterize Mountbatten? How did he

get the command?

A ll He was one of the best people I dealt with. He had

personality, and he had intelligence. He was a

charming guy and a good-looking guy, and he had

been a hero. He had been a destroyer commander and

had it shot out from under him. He had been in

their combined group that landed on hostile

shores.. He had been in on some of that kind of

business. He had a name on the British side. He

was also a cousin of the king of England, which

didn't hurt. He was Prince Philip's uncle, but

Mountbatten himself was related to the king,

closely related. I knew Prince Philip there as a

young staff officer.57 A blonde, good-looking

72
Q :

if really given full authority and a willing grou

of subordinates, probably could have accomplished 

heck of a lot more. On the other hand, I don'

think the Americans would have acquiesced to givin

him that.

Stilwell

engineers

had a theater engineer, and

in the Southeast Asia Command

there

and in

wer

th

Indian government. What was the relationship amon

them? .

A : Here's what you had. The government of India owne

the territory, owned the manufacturing means, owne

the labor means, and it owned the railroads. I

was the government. It had its army. It had 

commander in chief, India. They were there. The

had gone through the brunt of the early days. The

-had supported what little effort had been made

They'd backed up Burma to the extent it had bee

done* They had taken lickings. They had bee

expanded.

Now o n top of them you then superimposed th

American forces. They are living in somebod

else's land, and they looked to this somebody els

to give them much logistical support and help wit

rail movements, everything. If they wanted t

establish another camp or facility, they had to g

through the procedures to get the government t

agree and let them have it. But they're a prett

big . presence. As a matter of fact8 they'r

probably almost as big as the military belonging t

the government of India. 

Then you come along and superimpose on all of tha

this new Supreme Allied Command with theoretica

command over all of them, coordinating control, bu

actually it had to more or less operate by*getting

agreement. So we had an Engineer officer in th

person of "Speck" Wheeler, who would get to be 

lieutenant general. He was a deputy to Mountbatte

also on the administrative side, which is basicall

the logistical side, but he was basically a

engineer. You had this British major general o

engineers who was an engineer.

our SEAC engineer division was itself a grea

mixture of British and U.S. engineers, Australians

73
yp, p

couldn't throw our weight around. If we did, we

would get everything screwed up and nothing would

happen. But we had to try and get our people to

operate on a low key and use suggestion and

persistent effort.

Then shortly, after we had been there about six o

eight months in New Delhi, Mountbatten got fed up

and decided he would move his headquarters down to

Ceylon, where he would be a little independent of

the government of India and things might cure

themselves. Well, this was fine. I went along

with him. We all rushed down there. We lived in a

teagarden. It was very nice, a nice climate and so

on, and was halfway up the mountains down there.

We hadn't been there very long before I got called

in and told, "Well, nothing's happening. We're

losing out. We've pulled everybody out of New

Delhi. We‘ve left British Brigadier [James F.]

Benoy back there, but you're missing.58 You were

doing more good to us back up there working with

the Americans and the government of India engineers

in getting things put together and moving. So

we're going to send you back up there as the rear

echelon. You'll have Craig Smyser, who is an

American Army Engineer, but you have got to go back

and work with Benoy.59 He's the official

rear-echelon representative. You just work with

him and see if you can't get more of this support

that you were developing before.“ So I went back

to New Delhi.

The first time I was in New Delhi I lived about a

month or two in the big hotel. My roommate was a

classmate, Frank Merrill. But along about a month

after I had gotten there, they decided to set up

this special combat force, and he got moved out to

go take command of it. Colonel [Charles N.]

“Reuben" Hunter had already brought it over there

and organized it. Frank was one of Stilwell's

boys, so he went down there.

Then I got moved to a palace, Bikaner House.

Mountbatten lived in another beautiful place, which

incidentally had a bedroom with mirrors covering

74
g

maharaja that built it wanted to be able to see dm

he had with him from any position. [Desmond]

Harrison lived in the same palace with

Mountbatten. Craig Smyser and several of what they

called senior officers, most of them brigadiers or

major generals, also lived at Bikaner House. There

were just a few of us that were still colonels,

Americans in particular. This was a beautiful

palaceR marble with tremendous high ceilings. I

got ranked into the senior son's quarters. The

rest of them didn't realize what a break I got

because it was off on one flank of the palace,

separated pretty much from the rest of the

building, and it had hot water, its own hot water

heater. Every other lieutenant general and major

general and everybody else living in that place,

their bearers had to go out and heat their bath

water over a charcoal fire, but I had an electric

hot water heater, or gas, I've forgotten which.

But cold! It's kind of like this climate here [in

Mobile]. It gets down around 30 [degrees] here and

if you don't have any heat it's cold. Well, that

marble palace was primarily used as a home during

the summer by the maharaja of Bikaner. In the

winters he was in his own bailiwick--there wasn't

one sign of heat in this thing. It was just plain

cold. We ate in a British mess. I asked one day,

"Don't we have a mess officer?" And they said we

did. 'How often does he inspect the kitchen?' I

asked. They said, "He has to eat here!" Well,

that was serious. So I normally had "Delhi belly"

every Monday. Our offices were in what I see on

the TV whenever we have people go and visit--big

red stone buildings up where the legislature and

government offices were --and we had some of thatMy main transportation was a bicycle. I rode three

or four miles on a bicycle. That was fine in the

winter but in 1200degree temperature it got a

little bit hot. But it was certainly a lot better

than living in the jungle like they were doing in

some places. So we had nothing to complain aboutNow I am off the track.

We were talking about all the different Engineer

commands. Now let me see. Tom Farrell ended up as

the Engineer for Stilwell.60 Dan Sultan later on

was Stilwell's deputy in Delhi, and then Stilwell
an Engineer officer, too. Tom Farrell, Al Welling,

oh they had quite a crowd of Engineers there.62

As I say, Craig Smyser was working for me, and he

escaped and went over to the Farrell Engineer

section, where he thought he was doing more good.

Probably he was. Lew Pick got over there about the

same time I did and took over the Ledo Road. He

was an Engineer,

Engineers.

and most of his key staff were

Joe Cranston had been the Master of the Sword,

which is the athletic director, in essence, at the

military academy when I was a cadet.63 He was

commanding the intermediate section, but it was

full of Engineers as well. Neyland, football coach

from Tennessee and an Engineer, who had retired and

was called backB-was commander of the base section

in Calcutta most of the time when I was there.64

He was an Engineer. It was an Engineer theater. I

can't say it was

life,

any well-thought-out approach to

but I more or less tried to stay out of

people's way, and get in on the conferences as much

as I could# kind of ease in the long-range

direction of what my bosses were aiming for, but

not make a big noise, if you know what I mean.

And this turned out to be right successful. As a

matter of fact, when the war ended, Speck Wheeler

became the Chief of Engineers. I'd gotten to know

him very well because I used to go out and wait at

the airport to meet him. In fact, he woke -me up

one time when I was sleeping on the back seat of

the car. And he said, "What's this, you're worse

than the apostles of Christ going to sleep:" But

when I came back from the war, here's this man as

Chief of Engineers. Lew Pick--I had made a lot of

visits to his territory,

him the things he

I tried real hard to get

needed--I don't think he

particularly paid much attention to me or knew much

about me--but I never did cross him. I sat in up

there at some conferences when we were trying to

settle between the Air Force command and the Army

command--who gets some of these Engineer battalions

that are coming? Because there were some of them

coming over there that were labeled aviation

engineers, and the Air Force wanted to control

them. But everybody in the road area wanted to

control all of them and to allocate effort. I

76
Q .0

l

A .

l

Q

0m

A:

i ,Q : Was that one of the biggest projects?

Oh , yes. It was a hell of a project. And they

sent all kinds of people over there, engineers of

one breed and another, to get things ready. And

they were going to come pretty soon, and they

wanted to be able to hop from down near--from

Bengal, down near Calcutta -they wanted to be able

to fly over to some new fields to be built up at

Chengtu. They wanted to be able to fly with their

bomb load, land up at these fields that were to be

built up in China, top off with fuel, fly over, and

bomb Japan, come back and get fuel, and come back

down to the Calcutta area. At that time none of us

knew a thing about the B-29. We didn't know the

characteristics. We didn't know what thickness of

pavement was needed. It turned out that one of the

Air Force types had all of those specifications

locked in his drawer, but he hadn't thought there

was any necessity to let some of the rest of us

mundane folks see those kind of things.

Q :

A:

quietly watching Lew Pick do a darn good job of

winning his way over that thing, which I thought

was the right way anyhow. We didn't have enough of

anything -nobody had enough.

Are you talking about the movement to centralize

the Engineer construction effort rather than let it

be_M

Frittered away.

Yes, and doesn't this have to do with the Air Force

rivalry? For example, there were the roads and

there were the airfields, and the Air Force wanted

to have control.

That's right, and the big thing was, shortly after

I had gotten out there,

receive B--29s.65

they started preparing to

.Were you supposed to go ahead with construction

without any further specifications?

Well, the answer was, in my case, I was just up

here. I just knew it was happening. People would

say, "We're bringing this in, help them all you
India to get the sites. Then the promises were to

send U.S. battalions over that were to build these

fields with no problem. It wouldn't be any drain

on the government of India at all. It wouldn't be

any drain on the rest of the military effort.

They'd come complete. Then the word came, "We

can't get them off yet, but we've got to get

started. Can you do anything to get the government

of India to go ahead and start building these 

fields?" This just didn't come to me. I was just

getting it on the part of the whole crowd. Well,,

they had no equipment. And, as far as the Air

Force was concerned, this was going to win the

war. Suddenly we had Kramer and some other

American engineers showing up to build airfields

down around Calcutta, B-29 fields, without hardly

any means except bodies. And where was the labor

coming from?66 We were going to get the engineer

service of the government of India to furnish labor

and little mixers, hand mixers, to mix the

concrete. It was fraught with troubles. It

couldn't move fast enough. It couldn't build to

the specifications our Air Force wanted. The other

people thought it was just crazy to demand so much

strength and so on.

But by a great deal of cooperative effort, not just

of our Southeast Asia Command, we got the U.S.

theater, and Billy Hastead, the Air Force engineer

for the Government of India, together. He worked

under the engineering chief, who was a grade or two

higher. Hastead saw the point, realized the

requirement, and helped us no end. I think I was

somewhat influential in helping get him pulling in

the right direction. But8 if you can believe it,

we were trying to build four or five big fields

with tremen*dous runways for those days 8 with

nothing but pick and shovel and little trucks and

concrete mixers. They had some rock--crushing

equipment. A lot of it was done by hand. But they

had to have a whole battery of the things lined up

in order to do anything, and it was not fast. Yet

the Indian side had been more or less forced to

accept the target dates and get going when it was

really obvious that they couldn't possibly meet

those target dates under any circumstances. This

caused every fly-by-night that came through from

the Air Force, including my friend LeMay, who would

7%
Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A l

l

Indians that were so slow in this.67 But the

promise had been that the Engineer troops were

going to arrive in a package to build these things.

But what happened8 didn't they have the troops?

They didnt have them, and they didn't have the

shipping.

Was that true of the equipment, too? Why didn't

you have the equipment you needed?

Well, the reason was because the effort was going

faster than the logistical system could bring it.

And the real thing, You see I YOU were in a

competition. They wanted that same equipment out

in MacArthur‘s theater, and they wanted them in

Europe# and they wanted it in the South Pacific.

We were pretty much near the bottom of the totem

pole. We got just kind of token deals pretty

much. Now that's not quite a fair way of saying it.

Your whole effort was related to the position of

China against Japan, to strikes out of China

against Japan. It sort of rose and fell according

to that relationship, didn't it?

That's right. Remember now that Stilwell had no

respect for the British, in fact no respect for the

Chinese either, to amount to anything . . l .

Incidentally, I had known Joe Stilwell slightly

since I had been at Benning. The more I saw of him

and the more I saw of the war8 the more I realized

that he was one of the finest infantry battalion

commanders that we ever had, but quit right there.

For background, my father in 1941 activated the III

Corps in Monterey, Fort Ord, and who should have

the 7th Division in the III Corps but Joe

Stilwell. As corps commander my father used to go

over there pretty frequently, and he said he never

found Joe Stilwell any place but out marching near

the front of the point of an infantry maneuver some

place. He never saw him near the artillery, near

the Engineers, near the division logistical side,

and this was borne out very much by what happened.

Vncle JoeN was happiest when he went out under a

banyan tree in Burma surrounded by a handful of his

pals and conducted a little combat war, which he 
It wasn't the best run operation in the world. On

supplies, that was halfway around the world. It

took them a terrible long time to get supplies.

And when you got to India, you put it on rail, and

you had to switch from one rail system to another,

you had to get on a ferry, and across a river and

go on a different gauge railroade

Were you involved in any railroad work?

Just in the general deal that the railroad was

there and was serving the effort, and our general

mission was to see to it that everything got up to

these forward areas that was necessary. Paul Yount

was sent over there, another Engineer officer, the

same one who had been out at Schofield Barracks

with me, and he was brought over from Persia to run

the railroads, and he improved them no end.

What about your involvement on road construction?

The thing is, I was involved in all of that but

only from the viewpoint of higher headquarters, and

from my own initiative only from the viewpoint of

how do we help. I'm not going to fight them or

argue with them. How do we help them get it? WhO

can I go see, or who can I send a staff man to?

How do we maintain contact in order to accelerate

it?

Did you get involved in the controversy over the

Ledo Road8 where it was to go?

No nobody asked us.

s&pping on the U.S.

In fact we would have been

theater's toes if we had done

so.

What was your relationship with the Air Force and

the Services of Supply?

This is all part of this picture I‘m talking about

with the B-29s. Again, I couldn't order anything.

I could sympathize. We could send messages back

supporting. The best thing we could do was to?ry

and get people who had the means together with

those who needed the means and talk them into

getting together and moving, and they did. It was

80
Lord Mountbatten addressing Engineer troops in CBI.

Breaking Out of the Hills into Burma.

General Lewis A. Pick (c.).

Wilson (r.) with Major
They never had enough of anything until the very

bitter end. They never had enough Engineers or

good construction capability for the B-29 fields.

And as fast as they got close to it, then the

emergency got over and you began filtering that

stuff off someplace else. We had a terrible amount

of equipment requirements, but it had to come

ashore in Calcutta. Sometimes it got broken down,

some of the packages got opened, and things were

taken off because base section needed them. You

never quite

end of

digress

the

a

knew what

line. As

minute. I ultimately became commanding

a

was going to reach the other

cute little example, let me

general of advance section in Ledo [September

1945]. I hadn't been there very long when I got a

phone call from the theater commander. He said,

"I‘ve got a bone to pick with you. Base section in

Calcutta tells me you‘re shipping them all the

worst beer they ever heard of. You‘re not sending

them any good brands." Now this was when they were

starting to reverse the field, and I said, "Well,

general, I don‘t know, but I‘ll certainly look into

it and I‘ll call you right back." He said, "Okay,

you do tha

so.

t ." So I asked my staff if this had been

They said, "Yes, sir, that‘s absolutely

right," and I asked them why. "Well," they said,

'@we were the ones out front to begin with up here.

And the first two years over here Calcutta never

shipped us anything but these no-name beers.

That‘s how we built up this stock. Half of what we

got would be this stuff, and it didn‘t sell, and it

had just been stacked up in the warehouses. So now

that we‘re going the other direction, we thought

we‘d send them that back first." I said, "That‘s

fine. Let me check it through.“ So I called the

theater commander and he said, "Is that a fact?" I

said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Well, just keep right

on doing it that way then. At least for the next

war, they‘ll get the lesson?

This is just a small point, but it happened. How

things got done was more or less in spite of the

organization to a large extent, and a lot of people

putting out a whole lot of effort. I don‘t want to

give you the wrong impression that the government

of India forces weren‘t trying, because they were.

Particularly this Brigadier Billy Hastead would

come through and try.

82
thought was important also down there, and then

some Air Force fly-by-night would come in and just

raise living hell because there wasn't any more

progress. They'd say I “Look at these 'wags'

[Indians], they can't do anything by hand. How do

you expect to get anywhere?" Well, the answer was

everybody was doing the best they could.

Now the Chinese were required to build three bomber

fields and a couple of fighter fields in the

Chengtu are& and they had no equipment at all

really. They had no asphalt. They had no cement,

and everything that got up there had to fly over

the hump, and flying over the hump was a pretty

slow process. They said they were going to build

those fields in three months. It was taking us two

years to build them down where we were worrying

with it. They finally got started on them, and

they built the damn things in three months. But

what fields! They would go to a village and say, 88 I want 10,000 workers tomorrowoN And 10,000

workers would show up the next morning and they

said, "Okay, your job is the side of that hill over

there. You break out the rock and carry it over

and dump it over here.@' And another 5,000 would be

told, "You take it from here and go along the

runway and break it into little pieces." And they

had 30,000 people working on -one field, and they

did it. They built homemade rollers, big concrete

rollers. It took about 40 to 60 men to pull them.

That was the motive power, and that was their

compaction means. But they built the damn things,

and the Air Force flew them. They got their fields

finished before we got the ones down in Calcutta.

The Air Force started flying, and .they'd land, and

they successfully did it. After about a year those

fields were just absolutely hopeless. By that time

the war had changed anyway, so they just quit.

, Shortly after I had gotten there X decided I better

get over to China and see something for myself, CBI

theater. I got permission. I had orders that said

I could go anywhere. So I went up to Chabua, which

was the ta.keoff point for most of the hump flights,

and tried to catch a ride. It was pretty tough

because going that way everything was full. But I

found a friendly Air Force pilot who said, Vf you

83
Q :

g

I first flew the hump. There was no heat, and it

was cold, and every now and then the crew chief

would open the door and walk back and take an

oxygen thing out of his mouth and say, "You want to

suck oxygen?" And I said, "No, thank you, I'll try

without it." But I flew to Kunming and went around

and saw a little bit, went down to the Lingling,

Kweilin area. I spent about a week there. This

was about January of '44. I hadn't been there very

long when it was obvious that I had to get out

because the Japs were coming with a major offensive

drive. We had been in much better shape in '43 in

that part of the country than we were in '44, so I

had to fly on back and get to where my knitting

was. But it gave me a chance to see a little of

how things were done there and what was necessary

and sympathize with them.

What do you think was the greatest challenge from

an engineering point of view--the roads8 the

airfields, or the pipeline?

A 00 Oh boy# that would be a draw because they were all

interrelated. You had to have the airfields to get

supplies up there. You had to have the road to

build the pipeline and keep it operating. You had

to have them all, and they were all tough. The big

difference was that up on the road you actually

went thr6ugh a combat period there where the road

was pretty well under frequent attack. Then they

robbed two or three battalions from up there and

turned them into infantry and threw them in the

battle in Myitkyina.

Q : In which area do you think the most success was

achieved before emphasis shifted away from the

China-Burma-India theater?

A : Oh I it's all interrelated. The flying boys had the

best time because when they got someplace they

usually had a dry bed and a warm bath. The people

that worked on the road had some pretty tough

life. To me it was amazing to see as much

accomplished as was accomplished. That was some

rugged terrain. I made every trip I was able to

get away with up to look at what was going on and

see the works.

84
which was more or less independent of the

military-type organization. He never let us get

any group headquarters over there. The units

themselves, pretty much the battalion commanders,

were owners of equipment and people! and road

headquarters would tell them what to do, how many

men to send, and how many vehicles, and how many

dozers. I felt that we had developed a group and

brigade organization that could do a better job

over the long haul8 but Lew Pick could make people

work. He really produced results.

Q : He really set up some pretty short-term completion

goals8 didn't he?

A l

l That's right, and he got them working. He knew how

to make them work. I don‘t khow, maybe that is

what w:as necessary in that neck of the woods. But

the pipeline couldn't have been built without the

road there to a major extent to get the materials

there. The road couldn't have been built without

air support and quite a little. Do you r&alize how

far some of that is? The trip from Calcutta to

Kunming must have been the same as going across the

total United States. You changed gauges several

times on your railroad. When you started out of

Ledo to make the road trip you had a helluva long

way to go on a gravel road to get where you tied in

to the old Chinese road, and that was even worse.

.Lo it was not an easy operation by any possible

means, and there wasn't any way of really

short-changing it. The Engineer units could have.

used more equipment# could have used bigger

equipment, but considering what they had available,

I think they did a pretty damn good job

accomplishing what they were sent to do.

Q : What was the reaction in the CBI theater in the

summer of '44, when debate raged about shifting

away from CBI?

A: I don't know. The support we were getting didn‘t

really drop off too much because by that time the

landings in Europe had taken place, and You

couldn't have put any more equipment and supplies

in Europe than you had without sinking the whole

continent! I'll come to that later.

85
Walter IL Wilson, Jr. (r.) with his father in 1945 when both held

the rank of general and were the only father-and-son general

officers in the Army.
kind of hard to take for some, and others though

we didn't belong here anyhow, let's go someplac

else, but nobody really got away to amount t

anything. Tom Fa,rrell left in time to go back i

'45 to get with the atomic bomb deal. He wa

theater engineer and Al Welling moved up to hi

desk*

Before I left India, I was commanding general o

advance section, intermediate section, and bas

section. So I got a little bit of their background

rubbed on me too. I couldn't find too many place

that people weren‘t working as hard as they could

to make things work.

Q : When did your promotion to brigadier general come?

A : Oh that came in February of '45,

coirectly.

if I remember

Q : SO your feeling that the promotion would not come

fast8 though Wedemeyer said it would, proved true?

A : Well, that's true, and it didn't for othe

reasons. Stilwell didn't think much of Southeast

Asia Command, and he didn‘t want to give anything

to them. I believe my name was put in two or three

times by Wheeler. That had to be approved by

Stilwell in the American chain* This is where ycu

were topsy--turvy. It was turned down, and finally

I think Speck Wheeler got mad and decided to bypas

theater headquarters and go

Marshall.68 I .was on a

direct[ly] to

trip to London and

Washington to try arid line up our suPPlY and

equipment requirements for the ye&r '45. I was in

London in January of '45, and when I landed I had

this big stack of requirements that had been drawn

up by the staff, and I took it by the British

headquarters to the engineer in chief in London and

handed it to him and said, *'It!s going to take your

boys at least two weeks to read this. I'm going to

go see the war for two weeks." And he said,

"That's a good idea."

So I went over to Paris and ran into a friend who

gave me a command car and a driver again and a case

of rations, and I took off to see the war. I
got up to the 35th Division in the corner of

Germany, just across from Belgium, where I got to

see the division commander and staff and found out

a little bit more about how my brother had been

killed. I got to Antwerp, where I was

buzz-bombed. I saw a little bit of the war, and I

saw these tremendous stacks of supplies and

equipment down all the autobahns, with the grass in

between, stacked so high you couldn't see over the

stacks. You just never saw so much. It was

amazing to me. We hadn't had that.

I got back to London and walked into General

Chorpenin 's office and he said,

7

"You're out of

uniform." 0 And I said, "Why? What's the matter

with me? I think I'm in uniform. Have they

changed it?" He said, "No, no. Just you." He

took out a pair of stars and handed them to me and

said, "We‘ve been looking for you for ten days to

promote you." I think what happened--and I checked

this out a little bit--Speck Wheeler went direct,

and Marshall came back and said, "Don‘t you ever do

this again, but I‘ll go ahead and approve this

one." And that's how it happened8 bypassing

Stilwell.

Stilwell had a real objection. I don't think it

was personal, he didn‘t want to put any more rank

in SEAC. I couldn't quarrel with it. The thing

that really shocked me was the difference it made.

I was halfway around the world by then and I flew

on home# and, boy, when I landed on an airfield

under military auspices as a b.g., I was a big

shot# whereas two weeks before, the same guy had

not been. It sure made a difference in the VIP

treatment. I'd seen that on the British side8

their Royal Air Force and the Royal Engineers. A

British Engineer and I would go together on a trip

and stop at a U.S. airfield,' and we got pretty -good

treatment. But when we both stopped at a British

airfield, as an American I got pretty good

treatment, but the British officer was shunted off

to the slums, which waq hard for me to understand.

I don't know that I‘m giving you any great answers

to your questions. If I were running the war, I

would never have set up anything quite like we had

in India. I‘ll put it that way.

1 88
kind of kept a bomb from exploding, but you did

have a pretty tough situation because the people

heading the government of India were quite

experienced military people. They had been winning

wars and fighting battles long before most of us

had been born. And they couldn't get too excited

about getting to China because they didn't think

the Chinese were going to do anything anyway.

The whole problem was [that] our real mission in

life was not one that you could really say, this is

going to make or break the world. The further

[sic] MacArthur advanced, the more obvious it

became that no matter what we did, we weren't going

to really tip the balance. Now# if we could occupy

Japanese troops and keep them busy on the mainland,

well that might have some effect. That‘s about the

way it was getting about the time you're talking.

And then Stilwell was getting in arguments. He got

ousted out of there.

Kai-shek's?Tl

Was it his fault or Chiang

I don't know. I didn't see enough

of that close hand. But I do know the attitude he

had towards him. The Chinese were warlord

oriented, and how could Joe overcome that? I think

we botched things more towards the tail-end of the

war and after the war a s

don't

far as China goes. I

know whether it was the fault -Stilwell

wasn't around any more go I can't say it was his

fault--but it‘s hard to work effectively in a place

where everyone speaks different languages. The

Chinese language is particularly hard to get along

with. Now Stilwell had been trained for that

though. He had been stationed in China. I'd known

Stilwell, as I say, ever since Benning. I knew his

daughter. It's hard to say how to do it. Second

guessing is awful easy.

Q : Stilwell wasn't too happy about the creation of the

Southeast Asia Command at the Quebec Conference,

was he?

89
India itself was not a certainty, you know. There

was a good deal of unrest. There was fear that if

the Indians broke loose themselves, it could damage

the war effort no end. And this could have been

some part of the reason for establishing this

command in India under Mountbatten. I don't know,

but I suspect that had something to do with it.

Well, I think I ought to get to the reverse, the

going home part of it. I haven't covered that part

of my life over there, which was really more

demanding and challenging to me personally than the

war part, due to my shift from a staff position in

a multinational organization to a series of command

positions in the U.S. forces.

On my first visit to Calcutta in January of '44,

they were in the middle of a famine. I stayed in

the nicest hotel in Calcutta, and the dining room

was on the ground floor with big plate glass

windows. You'd go in to have breakfast and there

would be hundreds of people lying on the sidewalk

starving. And there was a black market in rice,

and their religion didn't let them eat the cattle,

so cattle were stepping over them as they were

lying there, literally dy.ing. They brought around

the wagon or cart every morning and picked up the

dead ones and hauled them off. And I suggested

that I take my food out and give it to them, but

the response was: "Don't do that. You'll start a

riot, and they will just be in worse shape. You'll

make some of them die a little quicker, that's

about all you'll accomplish." The politic,al

situation was pretty much touch and go. I'll come

to it later, but there was another riot when I was

commanding general of base section in Calcutta. I

sat on the back porch of my lovely mansion watching

them shoot at each other a block or two away. It

wasn't too stable. There was a great fear,

particularly on the part of the British, of India

pulling out in the middle of the war and leaving a

vacuum.

But as I said, I went to Europe and Washington to

sell our list of equipment and material requirements.

90
A 00 Not so much troops. By that time we knew w

weren‘t going to get any more troops in Southeas

Asia Command. Also some of the jobs were complet

and others were nearing completion, freeing som

units for additional missions and reducin

requirements for additional troops.

Anyway, I presented our requirements in Londo

through the engineer in chief in the war office o

the British staff. I told him that while they wer

reviewing our statement of requirements, whic

would take at least two weeks, I was going to th

continent and see something of the war in Europ

and visit with various staffs and commands. So i

the first week of February I flew to Paris an

immediately got a break. One of the first friend

I saw was Roy Lord, with whom I had served in th

3d Engineers.72 After listening to my tale, h

arranged for me to borrow a command car and driver

and a case of rations and be on my way.

I visited base section in Rheims and spent th

firstnight with friends in Verdun. Then I heade

north almost to Metz, and through the rear of th

Third Army. I visited several of thei

installations just to the rear of the "bulge

country, where rain and thaw made mud king, and s

the effects on roads and troop movements. We drov

through Luxembourg, Neufchateau, and Dinant t

Namur, where I spent the night at advance sectio

with two classmates from the USMA< Viney an

Stubbs.73 The next day they passed me on t

Colonel Itschner (a future Chief), who had a

extremely interesting j job bridge work and making use

roll out meter beams.74

controlling road an

of the steel mills t

Then I drove to Spa, where Bill Carter was Firs

Army Engineer. Be arranged for me to visit thre

Corps Engineers en route to Maastricht, and th

headquarters of the 35th Division, where th

division artillery commander and the assistan

division commander told me details of th

division's first day in combat in Normandy, wher

my brother, commanding a field artillery battalion

was killed.

91
aoud tpot ad dpot

g

and a V-2 --and returned to Brussels.75 The next

day I went to Maas to visit some British units and

spent the night in a farmhouse across the river

from fairly active fighting just out of machine-gun

range.

I had the chance to see nearly

military bridge,

every type of from floating to fixed, many still

under construction by both British and U.S.

Engineer units. Finally, on February 17th I

returned to Brussels, sent my command car back to

Paris, and waited my turn for a flight to London.

When I reported back to the U.S. headquarters, I

saw General Chorpening and told him of my visit on

the Continent.

In a few days I had answered the questions raised

by the British staff, had been authorized to carry

their recommendations for approval to Washington,

and headed for Prestwick, Scotland, for a flight

home. I succeeded in borrowing a staff car to make

the trip from London to Liverpool, which enabled me

to visit Oxford, Stratford, and the Shakespeare

country, and spend the night in an old Elizabethan

inn. I finished the trip from

Prestwick by night train. Liverpool to

Once again in Washington, I presented my statement

of requirements to a military staff, this time the

Joint Chiefs. Most people I contacted

"That's pretty modest.

said,

We're proud of you for not

coming with a request for more." But I couldn't

find anybody that would put his name on it to

approve it. The system in the Pentagon was you

found somebody in the appropriate section to sign

the list of requirements,

and

and then you went around

got concurring initials from

involved, and then you had it done. everybody

So I was there

about a month. My family came up from Birmingham,

and I met my new daughter for the first time. I

went every day to the Pentagon, walking around

trying to get somebody who would sign it.

One day I was feeling pretty low, and as I passed

by a friend's office-[Marshall S.] Pat Carter, a

lieutenant general later also-he said, 'What are

92
for our theater, I haven't found a single soul w

says that it shouldn't be accomplished, it

logical, it's about the right scope. But until 

get somebody to sign this damn letter I can't ma

any progress." He said, "Well that% a fair dea

You know I have nothing to do with this." I sai

" I know, you're responsible for a differe

theater." He said, "Well, let me try somethin

Let me sign it." So he signed it, and in one ,day 

had all the initials necessary for approval.

I then started trying to return to my theater

suggested that as long as I was halfway around 

world, I should return the other way. Everybo

said, "Go through MacArthur‘s theater?" I sai

"Yeah, one person isn't going to overload the

"Well," they said, "the Surgeon General just g

run out of there two or three weeks ago, a

MacArthur said no more staff visits." I sai

"Would you mind at least sending a wire saying t

Brigadier General Walter K. Wilson, Jr., returni

to Ceylon, asks authority to travel throu

MacArthur's theater?" And they said, "You'll ju

get a 'no.'" I said, "Then you shouldn't mi

sending it." So they sent it, and to the

amazement the next day the answer came back, "

I'd like to see him. I want him to stop and s

me."

I knew that MacArthur and my father were friend

that Dad had commanded Corregidor until Decemb

1940, so I felt the request would receive mo

consideration than a cursory turndown. I also fe

the fact that the message mentioned that I

traveled through Europe and seen some of the thi

there and was now in Washington and was return

to Ceylon might interest General MacArthur. At a

rate, I received permission to fly that way, a

stopped in Hawaii and talked with Gener

 Richardson, who'd been commandant of cadets when 

was a cadet.77 He was the senior Army officer 

the Navy theater, and I found out a little mo

about how things were being done in that area.

Then I flew on to Leyte, and reported to the ch

of staff, General Sutherland, because MacArthur a

the key staff people had just moved to Manil

93
see MacArthur because he's in Manila with a very

limited staff and does not want visitors at this

stage." I said, "Would you mind sending him a

notice just saying that I have reported and am

available if he wants me, otherwise I'll just go on

my way." Next morning they were looking for me all

over. "Hey, he wants you now," they said. 'Get

going!"

The story on Leyte was that there weren't any

places to bed people down and so on, because they

were getting ready for the main headquarters to

move to Manila. But when I landed at the airport I

was met by a Colonel Whatley, who had been a fellow

CCC camp officer with me up in north Mississippi in

1933.79 He was the headquarters commandant. He

said, "Glad to have you." I said, "I'm going to

leave right away." He said, "What do you want to

hurry for? We have lots of room." I said, "I

don't want to interfere." He said, "I'm already

making rooms available for the staff when they

come, and you can stay as long as you want." so I

had a very lovely room with some shell holes

through it, but it was very nice.

And I reported to MacArthur for what I expected to

be a courtesy call. Shoot! He sat me down and

pumped me for everything I was worth. I'd come up

through Italy; I'd come through Cairo, England; I'd

been over in Paris; I'd been up into Belgium; I'd

been into Holland and the corner of Germany; I'd

seen all these things; and he just pumped me. He

asked me the same questions you have to some

extent, but he wanted to know what about the supply

situation, and I gave him the same answer that if

they had any more it would sink the damn

continent. He said, "That's exactly what I

expected, that's what I wanted to find out, because

that will give me a stronger attack." He kept

going like that, and after about an hour I said,

"General, I had better leave or your staff will

want to scalp me." He said, "No, no, you've given

me what I want, now you haven? had a chance to ask

me any questions." So I started asking him

questions. He explained what they were up to, how

they were getting along, and what their plan was

for invading Japan. It was a glorious opportunity 

94
now. Where do you want to go?" "Well," I said,

"my old 3d Engineer Company is just a little bit

north in the mountains. I'd appreciate the chance 

to go see them." He said, "It's all arranged; just

tell my staff where you're going.'

So I was flown to Sixth Army headquarters, where I

visited General Sam Sturgis, Sixth Army Engineer

(and a future Chief of Engineers).80 I briefly

saw several classmates and lots of friends in that

headquarters before driving up into the mountains

to visit my old C Company, 3d Engineers, although

there was hardly anybody left in it that I had

known. I stood there in the mountains looking

across the valley and asked, "The Japs are in those

caves?" And finally somebody said, "Would you mind

leaving now? You've stood here long enough. You

will attract some fire. And we don't want to get

hit." So I left, and sure enough some artillery

shells came in there just about two or three

minutes after we m_oved down the trail. En route to

Manila by air we overflew Corregidor, where my

father had commanded just prior to World War II,

and I could see where my parents had lived, and the

results of the war. Then I continued my journey by

way of Australia into Ceylon. So I made it all

around the world on this occasion.

After I returned to SEAC in Ceylon they said,

"There's no need for you to return to the rear

echelon8 you can stay down here in Ceylon now,"

which was a nice change. I had about three or four

months there. It was kind of a pleasant backwater,

if you know what I mean. Suddenly the war ended.

In the meantime, Lew Pick during the summer had

left advance section for R and R at home, and Paul

Yount had,been moved in there to take command. And

when Lew Pick returned to the theater there were

some problems. Apparently the theater commander

had decided he'd keep Yount in command and send Lew

Pick home. It was a pretty rough situation. Paul

Yount had had a real tough time. Paul had been

overseas longer than anybody. He'd started on the

rail support line to Russia, and then moved over to

India. So now, with the war ended, he was being

sent home. And I was told I was the replacement as

95
hadn't had too tough a time, so I could foresee

that I was going to be the guy that closed out the

theater before we finished with it. I went up to

Ledo immediately.

I was told one night to leave the next afternoon,

and by the next morning I received an invitation to

a luncheon in my honor by Mountbatten, which he

didn't have to do, but I thought it was very nice.

And I asked Lord Louis if I could go to the

surrender ceremony. I said, "I've been with you

now for a couple of years, and I'd sure like to see

the finish." He said, "If you can escape from the

U.S. forces up there, you get back down here and

I'll let you ride in our seaplane down there to see

it." And General Wheeler was going and some

others. So I went to Ledo and took command, got

things fairly well lined up as far as I was

concerned, and then flew back down to Ceylon, and

went over and watched the surrender at Singapore.

Extremely interesting. And I felt I had earned

that much by staying in SEAC that long. But that

flying boat ride was something: I came back to

Ceylon the same way and then returned to Ledo.

Advance section in Ledo is the place where the U.S.

effort had been largely centered until you got into

China, and the advance section folks thought they'd

won the war# which was pretty accurate as far as

our area was concerned. Then here comes this

fly-by-night-- they were all Pick admirers, and Pick

had left--and Yount had moved in and out, and here

I am! I had learned to know quite a few of them in

my travels, though8 and hadn't made any of them

particularly mad. I'd given them some help. so I

sized it up that from now on the biggest effort was

going to be closing out and going home, and that

those who had really done the greatest towards

winning and making the prior progress would look on

this as child's play.

It looked to me like my best solution was to send

home all the big shots and find some little shots

who could be challenged by this operation. so I

called in the top staff, who were already

individually seeking appointments to ask me when

they could leave, and told them a-11 at one time,

96
jy

been doing it and who hasn't been here as long a

you have, and I'll appoint him immediately and you

can go home." By the next morning I'd lost nearl

everyone but my chief of staff, who was a regula

officer, and he was staying. The other key peopl

were practically all gone. And to this day I mee

with them once a year, most of them, the Ledo Roa

crowd-well, they meet once a year and I joi

them. They are some of our best friends.

But they hadn't been gone more than several day

before I realized that I had been somewha

suckered. They had recommended their number two

FYS 0 and these men had been over there @within a

few months as long as the originals, and they were

just as impressed with what they had accomplished.

SO I called them in and said, “Okay, now I want you

to go out in the boonies and you pick out some

people who haven't been here more than a year,

people who can do the job you're doing, and bring

them in, let me meet them. If you've got a good

one. I'll let you go.

you're going to

If you don't have a good one

stay here until hell freeze

over. *’ They got good ones:

And within another three or four days I had a

complete new staff. So in the month oz September#

advance section was served by three different

staffs in turn. But it was the best thing I could

have done8 because they were young, enthusiastic:

they weren't impressed too much by what they had

accomplished before, but they were impressed with

the problems facing them. And there were problems:

At that stage in life I commanded about 50,000 Army

troops and quite a bit of civilian labor8 and

Gurkhas; about

people.81

altogether 70,000 or 80,00

And my main job was to get most of

those American ones home in the next three or four

or five months. So we worked on it pretty hard. I

came to the conclusion that I would spread the word

that people were going to go home in the order that

they should goN irrespective of job, and we weren't

going to let a lot of them sneak out with an outfit

just because the outfit had been there a long

time. But if they were replacements they were

going to get pulled out8 and vice versa; the

97
So I cranked up a flight to Kunming, and we got 

jeep and a panel truck and drove back the 1,07

miles stopping at every outfit and telling the

about when they'd be able to go home in genera

terms, the sequence and the order so that the

could see we weren't cheating. And we stopped at

every little pumping station on the pipeline. It

was something. Those little pumping stations would

have about three people there, and they'd taken the

washbasins and other conveniences from downed

aircraft, and they had themselves fixed up very

nicely.

But it took about a week to ride back from

Kunmingm The party consisted of me, my chief of

staff, Colonel [Richard] Dick Selee: my aide

Captain [James E.] Jim McNamara: Major Gerand: and

two drivers. And we made it! Dick Selee didn't

think he should go because he was chief of staff of

advance section and both of us should not be away

from the headquarters at the same time. I said,

"You'd better go now, or you'll never make it." On

the way home he received a message from our

headquarters saying he was being transferred to

Panama# which is where he wanted his next

assignment since his wife was from Panama. So he

was glad he had gone on the trip. And the trip was

a success. We saw a lot8 we explained a lot8 and

we really never had any incipient riots or

disciplinary problems in the closing out of advance

section, I think to a large extent as a result of

our trip and telling the facts.

We were bringing about 5,000 men a week into the

staging area and getting them cleaned up and

serviced up a little bit,

sending them off.

and loading them and

About that time I got back to

Ledo and received a phone call from Al Welling. He

said, tiDo you know who the new theater commander is

now that Speck Wheeler is gone?" I didn't know so

he told me it was Tom Terry and asked if I

remembered him from cadet days.82 I did, and I

wondered if this was his first trip overseas.

Welling said,

in the war,

"This is the first time he‘s gotten

and yours is the first outfit he's

going to visit? I asked why he was telling me

98
done my best for you. Yours is the first one. No

he thinks the war can be run by people who hav

spit and polish like we did as cadets when he was 

tactical officer. That's what you are facing."

I thought I knew what he'd think and what he'd loo

for when he came. How in the world could I correc

it? Those guys hadn't had a shirt on in a coupl

of years. It was a pretty hardworking bu

unmilitary-looking crowd. I called in my aide an

told him to take a jeep and get it painted shiny

put oversize tires on it, paint the tires white

get a big star and put it on the front, and jus

make the whole jeep look obnoxious. I wanted i

the next morning. So he showed up with it. It .wa

really obnoxious. I got in alone and starte

riding around. Every time I'd see a soldie

walking down the side of a road with his shirt tai

flapping or with no shirt on, I'd pull up alongsid

him and say, "I'm General Wilson, the new commande

here. I thought I'd give you a little friendl

advice. We're sending a lot of people home, but w

have made a new rule. If you want to dress and ac

like the Indians# you can stay here with th

Indians." He would start putting his shirt tai

in, and I would say, "That's right. I just though

you might appreciate knowing." He said, "I do." 

said, "You do what?" He said, "Appreciat

.. knowing." "Knowing what?" "Oh," he said, "sir, 

appreciate knowing." And I said, "Fine." Ibid,

"Will you just spread the word?" He said, "Oh

yes, sir." He started off and I said, "Wait 

minute, didn't you forget something?" "No, sir,

he said, and then, "oh, yeah/ and he gave me th

first salute he had put out in some time. Well, 

did that all around the Ledo area for three days

I'm. sure it started a lot of rumors about th

screwball they had up at headquarters, but 

thought that was better than trying to get on th

radio and pleading with them to buck up.

I drove to the boundary of advance and intermediat

sections and met General Terry and put him in th

car, and we started back up the road. And I'm 

son of a gun, we hadn't gone more than about fou

or five miles when off on a side road, way off i

the distance, suddenly some men jumped to thei

feet and saluted. And I saluted back, and Terr

99
"Wilson, I want you to know that you have the mos

military organization I've ever seen!ti It worked.

Well, it was quite a job bringing them in and s

on. We were also trying to consolidate all th

supplies and equipment in various places in orde

to dispose of them properly. We had one unit know

as ULittle Peoria2 It was an Engineer maintenanc

outfit that had been recruited in Peoria, Illinois

where the Caterpillar tractor factory is, and the

were a good outfit. They knew how to do th

maintenance work. If people could get thei

equipment to them, they were real happy. But i

was time for them to go home, and so they had com

in and they were in the staging camp, and my I

[inspector general] came to see me. He said, "Sir

I'm sorry to tell you, but I've heard a rumor tha

'Little Peoria' dumped a lot of parts out there i

the jungle where they were." I asked if he ha

looked and he said, "No, I haven't looked ye

because I don't want to have to skin them. Bu

I'll go down there if you'd like.“ I told him I

talk to the commander, so I brought him in an

said, "I'm sorry to tell you this. You've had th

finest outfit over here as far as maintenance goes

but I understand that in order to make it easie

and get out of Burma on time and get away fro

here# you may have done some things that you're no

particularly proud of." He looked kind o

startled, and I said, "Yes, I'm hearing a lot o

things. I've got several choices. I can send th

whole company back down there to clean the area u

and bring everything in, which will delay you

return to the Statesby several months. Or I ca

send on the bulk of the enlisted personnel and jus

keep some of you officers, let you do it and tak

many more months. Or if you want to handpick 

crew to go down there# your outfit's due to get o

the train next week. We'll put them on the trai

and we'll fly you over to Bombay to join them i

you've really done the job right." "Oh, yes, sir/

he said, "let's try that one." So we did, and the

brought in one helluva lot of parts and things

But that kind of thing was going on all the time

We had to keep watching it.

100
mission of selling surpluses, except in India wh

surpluses were to be turned over to the governm

of India under reverse lend-lease. W& had cert

things we assembled in Myitkyina and certain thi

we brought back in to Ledo, and we were gett

word that they were. having a lot of thievery go

on in Myitkyina. So I asked who had been provid

security in the past, and they said, "We used 

have a pretty strong Gurkha outfit as guards d

there." So I said, "Let's get them." So 

recruited the Gurkhas# and I went back 

Myitkyina, and we installed them. I went back 

week later and said, "How are we coming?" T

said fine. They weren't having anything stolen. 

said, "Nobody's even tried to steal?" "Oh, ye

sir, they have tried to steal." When I asked wh

they were, they said, "They're in the river." T

had cut their throats and put them in the rive

It discouraged the thievery no end: The culpr

were largely Chinese deserters roaming north Burma

We collected a mass of materials and equipment. 

also had a great big Engineer depot in L'edo th

was being filled up. One day a man came in a

said, "Your .explosives area, your TNT area, is 

trouble. It's been stacked out there for sever

years, and nobody has enforced a first-in/first-o

rule, so you have some piles of stuff that ha

been there for two or three years, 

nitroglycerin is dripping out of them. Trucks ha

backed into a corner of stacks, so you have box

hanging over. Any minute something can g

They're trying to clear the stuff now, but a tru

driven by a Wog hit a bump and he and the truc

and the load and all8 went up and almost took out 

village up on the side of the hill.'

I went out there to see, and it was pretty s

looking. It was all he had said, and you could 

the stain of the nitroglycerin. I was scared 

walk around it. We asked for help through 

theater, and we were sent some experts f

Australia who worked pretty hard to devise means 

disposing of the stuff. The Wogs who were loadi

it were carrying it on their heads to put it on t

truck, and the nitroglycerin was seeping down a

giving them terrific headaches. We had theat

support, we had everybody helping. We finally ve

101
jump over a village in the valley.. We evacuated

the village, though, just to be safe, and got it

there and finally exploded it. It worked just

exactly like a charm. We had built a little dike

to keep it from going down into the valley, and the

dike disappeared but it stopped the explosion. It

did jump over the village so the people went back

and found

The Foreign Liquidation Commission wasn't making

much progress, and I could see us sitting there

forever, just .guarding the surplus. So I asked

permission of the FLC to let me sell the surplus in

Burma, at Myitkyina. They said all right; if I

thought I could, I should go ahead. So we putout

the news, and the first thing you know a great big

tall, six foot-one-or-two-inch Pakistani showed

UP-it was Indian then, but he was from the Karachi

area--and said he wanted to buy everything we had

in Myitkyina. I asked if he knew how much we had

there, and he said he did; he had seen it. I asked

how much he was going to pay us for it, and he told

me a number in the millions of dollars. I asked if

he had the money in the bank, and he said he did.

He told me the name of a bank in New Delhi. I told

him I was going to check it. He said, “Yes, sir,

by tomorrow morning the money will be there."

Well, I checked that afternoon but there wasn't any

money there. The next morning they called up to

say the money was there. So we continued our

negotiations with him. One of the things he

demanded, though, was that he get my car, which was

in India. We couldn't sell anything in India, so I

said, "That's one you can't have." He said, "I've

got to have it -or I'm not going to carry through

this deal." So I told him 1,d let him go down

through the cars, and he could pick any three of

them, except mine, and the ones he picked we would

overhaul and put in fine shape and drive to the

Burma border, which is about 45 miles out of Ledo,

on the day in question. When he finally signed the

contract we would deliver him the cars and keys

right there. He said that wag satisfactory, so

that was the basis on which we sold one helluva lot

of stuff. It was getting pretty dangerous i n

Burma. There were lots of Chinese deserters and

102
v

I

! -

and converted it to cash, 

dot o, 

understand he made a go of it. And the railroad

wasn't working in Burma, which must have added to

his problem. *

The pipeline east of Myitkyina would obviously be a

problem to dispose of since it was built of

lightweight invasion-type Pipe which probably

wouldn't hold up for over four or five years and

hence was probably uneconomical to salvage.

Realizing that the China theater was planning to

cut away from India-Burma theater in November and

instead open up their line of communications to th

east-and realizing that advance section would be

stuck with the security of the lines until they

were disposed of- I requested that the theater and

the FLC initiate action to abandon the pipelines

east of Myitkyina. But I was turned down.

About a week before China theater was to evacuate

Kunming and cut off the telephone to Ledo, I

received a call from Colonel Bill Creasy, who had

served in Schofield Barracks when I did and was th

umpire for the officiating team that I headed as

referee in the soldier football league.83 He

asked if I knew they were moving out in a week and,

when I said yes, asked what I was going to do with

the men at the pipeline stations since with their

departure these men would be in danger from bandits

and Chinese deserters. We discussed the problem,

and I asked if he would call me the day before the

telephone line was to be cut and tell me he had

just been shot at and that I was risking people's

lives by leaving them guarding the line. He said

he would, and a week later,

called mad and said,

true to his word, he

@@Weary, I've just been shot

at. And I don't mean maybe, I really was shot

at." I thanked him and called New Delhi, reported 

this conversation, and asked permission to call

these men in before we lost any lives. I asked

that the theater commander be informed of the

situation, the call from Creasy, and my repeated

recommendation to bring in the men. If I didn‘t

have specific orders in writing by the next morning

to leave the men in place in spite of their danger,

I would order them in to Ledo. I reminded them

that tomorrow morning would be the last time the

telephone line would be in service beyond Myitkyina.

,

103
immediately and direct them to leave for Ledo. T

operation was a success. No one was hurt, but 

is of interest to note that no message, referenc

the problem, was ever received from highe

authority.

Next I began thinking that Joe Cranston, commandi

general of intermediate section, would probab

want to go home pretty soon from Chabua, which wa

just a little bit down the road, about 80 or 

miles, and probably I would end up consolidatin

advance and intermediate sections. Sure enough

the word came. Joe Cranston had to go home fo

health reasons, and I would consolidate the two

SO I did in early November. I learned a lot fro

this consolidation. For one thing, I had carefull

avoided taking any favorites with me to put in th

consolidated staff; but I went to Chabua and tol

them to show me where they were going to hav

requirements after they had sent home those presen

staff members who were due to go. I would brin

with me from Ledo just those necessary to fil

those slots. And we did that, and it worked jus

fine. We didn't have any real friction consoli

dating. And on the 15th of January, I used th

same principles in consolidating all three section

into one with headquarters in Calcutta, making m

commanding general of base section, India-Burm

theater, or in essence, the commander of all groun

force units remaining in India and Burma.

In Calcutta I found out that my predecessor, Bo

Neyland, had contracted ~ for a beautiful home

complete with many servants, as his quarters, an

the contract could not be terminated until May. 

mY aide and I, together with five or six of m

staff, moved into this house which had housed Bo

Neyland and his aide. The house and servant

belonged to the estate of a steamship lin

president; was two-story with about six bedrooms, 

grass tennis court, and orchids growing in th

garden.

By this time in my progression through India, I ha

concluded that we would do ourselves, the Army, an

the U.S. taxpayers a major favor if we could clea

up our records, inventory all our depots, turn ove

104
our surpluses and clear India by June 1946,

hopefully before investigators finished their more

lucrative targets in the Philippines and Japan and

reached our little backwater. Clinching this

analysis were calculations I had made which showed

roughly that--based on the average U.S. population

expected in India between January and June,

together with costs of local labor, rentals,

etc. --it would cost several hundred thousand

dollars to the U.S. taxpayers for each day we

stayed in India. Using these rough figures, I

directed that our various negotiators use this

several hundred thousand dollars as a unit of

measure in reaching prompt decisions on those

activities which would ultimately determine when we

could close the theater. This discouraged days of

quibbling over minor sums that risked adding

several days to the date we would close the theater.

Calcutta was not all pleasant. Again there were

hunger and political riots. We had a good provo

[provost] marshal in Calcutta, and he had a system

where his patrols would go out the first thing in

the morning and decide where the safe and unsafe

areas were. They would come back and get on the

radio and direct our troops how to get to their

jobs. We didn't have any losses although we almost

lost a couple of his MPs in jeeps when they got a

little too close to the rioters. We had a lot of

troops being loaded on ships from a staging camp

out in the boonies, not too far, but I directed

them to put their bows and canvases on the trucks

because they went under several underpasses. I

told them somebody would drop some paving blocks

down on them. One guy knew better than I did, and

he sent one convoy off without the covering, and

sure enough somebody dropped a big rock down and

cut open one of my men's heads. But we patched him

up and got him on the same ship. Thereafter they

put the darn things on. That was another problem.

A third one, we were getting ready to turn over the

supplies in Ledo to the British Army in India.

Ex-advance section was now down to a corporal's

guard really. I got a call from Colonel John A.

Morris, who was left up there as the last king of

the Ledo area and e he said he had some bad news for

me. I said, "What's that?" NWell,N he said, "you

know we're supposed to be turning these surpluses

105
over to the British; and we have made inventories,

and they don't believe them. SO they came over

today prepared to start. They brought one

subaltern and about ten other ranks. They are each

equipped with a footrule, and they are starting on

the reenforcing steel, and with a footrule they are

going to check out the inventory of reenforcing

rods you couldn‘t see the end of! Now that's just

a sample. From there they are going to other

things in the same style."

So I flew up there and got with them, and they got

their bosses there and said, "Well, we can't trust

this inventory. It's not good enough." So I asked

what would they trust, and they said, "We're going

to do it ourselves." I said, "Now wait a minute

now. Suppose I send experts up here, and we make a

combined team. You have somebody with every team,

and if we can make an inventory that way, will that

be satisfactory to you?" And he said, "Well, I'll

have to ask my general." So he went off and got

word back from his general that that would be all

right.

So that's what we had to do. I had to scour the

theater for anybody that knew supply procedures,

nomenclatures and the like. There weren't many

Engineer ones, but there were enough of them that

knew something. As a matter of fact, at the time I

was up there checking the inventory, we went to an

item marked "Sets, Instruments, Drawing,

Incomplete." There were supposed to be about one

hundred of them, and I said, "What do you mean by

'sets, instruments, drawing, incomplete?"' I was

told that was easy; there were probably one or two

things missing in the set. So I said, “Okay, let's

go look." And we opened up a hundred of them, and

there wasn't a single one that had a single

instrument inside the box! And that's when I

realized that we had to redo the inventory. So, in

a month of high-powered effort, sending back about

two or three hundred people, and working like dogs,

we produced an inventory that the British were

willing to take. And about the middle of April we

closed out Ledo. Then we did the same thing in

Chabua.

Incidentally, I had been continuously getting letters from the Secretary of War‘s office in the

106
War Department saying, "your rank will be returned

to colonel on such and such a date. You're

entitled to be home two weeks before that.' And

each time one of these would come I'd call the

theater commander and say that I was due to leave

now, the first of February or whatever. And he'd

say I couldn't do that. "Well," I said, "here's

what's happened." "Okay, you just keep on staying

and I'll get that changed." So he kept getting it

changed. But finally, with a revised deadline of

15 May, and we were within 30 days of closing the

theater, I said, "I don't want to stay any longer.

I'm not going to push it, but I do want to be home

for two weeks with this exalted rank, I'll never

see it again." So on the first of May in 1946 I

flew home and was returned to colonel on the 15th

or something like that, and then I went up to the

st 0 Paul District as colonel, District Engineer.

One more thing before we move on. I thought coming

back now with Speck Wheeler as Chief of Engineers,

boy I had it made! I could get myself a nice job.

so I reported in to General Wheeler, and he

welcomed me home. I asked where I was going, and

he said, 'I've got some ideas for you. Can you

come in tomorrow morning with what you'd like, and

we'll see." That was fine with me, so I showed up

the next morning, and h& had his personnel chief

there; they had big books. He said, "All right,

now to start with I'm going to tell you what I

really want you to do. I've got a very key job

that we've just established in the Pentagon that

you're ideal to fill, and it would be a real help

if you can take that job." And he gave me a

buildup for about 15 minutes. And I finally asked

if I could say what I really thought, and he told

me to go ahead. "Well," I said, "sir, I haven't

been in a District for 16 years. It looks to me

like if I don't get a District Engineer job now

I'll never get one, and I feel like I'm getting

short changed, becau-&e I think it's part of my

career, and I ought to have a chance at it.' He

said, 'I was afraid you'd say that. All right,

I'll see what we can do for you now. What District

would you like to have?"

Well of course I'd called home that night befor&

and talked with my bride and asked where we wanted

to 9o l She said Nobile; and I said fine.

107
to go to Mobile." But somebody had just gone to

Mobile: somebody else had just gone to

Jacksonville. I said, "General, would you mind

telling me where there are vacancies?' So they

turned the pages, turned the pages, and turned them

back again. Finally they said, "The St. Paul

District," and I said, "I want to go to the St.

Paul District."

The Chief said, "That's a wise choice. It's the

only one you can get. It's an old-line District:

they've got a lot of experience there, and if you

go there for six months and keep your mouth shut

you'll get to be a good District Engineer.' I

thanked him and told him I would take his advice.

And that's how I went to the St. Paul District.

But having lived three years in the environs of

India and Ceylon, I went to a completely opposite

climate.

After a short vacation, once again in Clearwater,

the whole family took off for St. Paul by car. I

reported about mid-June, if I remember rightly. I

think it was a wise choice by General Wheeler. I

don't know whether there were any other Districts

open or not8 but he did take cognizance of the fact

that I had been absent from civil works a long

time, and he put me in a District that was not

under a pressure cooker at the time, and with very

experienced, able personnel. St. Paul District had

been a very busy District, particularly in the

thirties, during the channelization of the upper

Mississippi. The personnel were very stable. I

very wisely learned a great deal from them, which I

was later able to use when I moved from St. Paul to

the Mobile District.

The District's workload in St. Paul was relatively

small. There were quite a few small flood control

projects, major drainage, small reservoirs;

primarily for flood control and to some extent for

water suPPlY. There was a lot of work on the

operation and maintenance-- of navigation on the

upper Mississippi. And there was additional work

going on, contracts, on locks and the extension of

navigation up into the city of Minneapolis. There

108
that the navigation system had been operating long

enough that the people in Wisconsin and Minnesota

had more or less forgotten the extent to which they

benefited from the navigation project, and in turn

had gotten around to the fish and wildlife side of

life: that nothing must be done to interfere with

the growth and development of the fish or birds.

.I

,

,

I

- 3

I

Q

e

l

A:

We had considerable work in this field. With the

advice of some of my staff I got pretty smart for a

change and hired as the public relations man, the

technical liaison officer for the St. Paul

District, a relatively young man who had come from

the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Mr. Warren

Nord was well trained in that field and had

experience for qui-te a few years, and a nice

personality. And we put him in and told him his

job was to tell them the truth throughout the area,

find out what they really felt like and wanted, but

primarily, in addition to that, to see to it that

they got a real understanding of what was involved.

The usual

based on

create a

reservoir

waters to

the St.

taking of real estate for a reservoir is

pivoting from the dam, which tends to

major taking in the upper ends of the

in order to provide flowage for the high

not encroach on someone else's land. In

Paul District there had been a

determination made in the early days of navigation

improvement to pivot them about the midpoint of the

lake, which cut more than in half the taking in the

upper half of the reservoir. But in turn that

meant that in times of high water you actually had

low water at the dam itself, which sometimes

required additional dredging. This also affected

the backwater channels throughout the reservoir.

And many of the hunters and fishermen felt that the

st Paul District and its operation was doing its

beit to disrupt the natural regimen of the river*

We made a little model, a moving model, and the

public relations man went up and down the river

explaining it to any groups that would

listen--Rotary Club, Kiwanis, Chamber of Commerce.

Were there any organized environmental groups that

were specifically involved?

Oh yes, the fish and wildlife associations were

there. This was a very sports-minded area. And as

109
the time I'm talking about so much better than th

had been that it's remarkable. But people ju

don't remember that. They can remember whe

grandfather used to take them fishing when th

were a little boy, and it's no longer accessibl

or something of that kind, or it gets flooded. B

anyhow, most of the three years that I was in S

Paul we were fighting that battle, but we did ma

progress. And this use of the man who knew mo

about wildlife than the rest of us, including mo

of the critics, was beneficial to us.

On the reservoirs, our area of responsibili

touched the Missouri on the west, where water a

flood control and po*wer were very importa

features. We operated in the eastern half 

better of North Dakota, and I got a lesson from 

project in this area. The state of North Dako

had a water board [the North Dakota Wat

Commissioners], in essence headed by the governo

and they met about every three or four months 

keep up with the progress. They more or less r

herd on the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau 

Reclamation in this field. And they al

deliberately set their own projects in priority a

got the whole state to agree that project so-and-

was number one, whereupon they spoke with one voi

in Washington, on the Hill, and in t

administration. And they were very effective.

The first time as District Engineer I went out 

Bismarck to attend one of these meetings and ma

my presentation, I thought I knew a lot about 

District. I had been there about two months. A

eafter I sat through that meeting I realized th

the governor of North Dakota knew about three tim

as much about my projects as I did, and that w

the last time he knew three times as much about 

projects: They weren't trying to ride me on t

thing, they just knew more. That wasn't the way 

had to be. I had to know as much about it as th

did.

We had one project in Valley City, Nor

Dakota-- Baldhill Dam--which had an effect on t

Missouri River work in that it was in the sa

state and it could compensate to some extent 'f

110
y 

project if it ever was completed.85 As usual,

people living in the reservoir bottom resisted the

taking of their land, for which I didn't blame

them, but I had a hard time there in public

relations.

Once again, it was before Mr. Nord. I was invited

out for a Fourth of July address to the little cit

of Arlee, North Dakota. It's just a little town.

I arrived there in early afternoon, and I didn't

find a soul in the place. Finally a man came up

from a basement level and said, "Are you Colonel

Wilson?" I said yes, and he told me to come down

I went down, and he said, "I'm the man that got you

invited out to make this talk. Whatever talk you

brought, forget it, because what we want to know i

why do you have to take the farmland."

Well, I had a patriotic speech in my pocket, which

I put away. He told me that the whole town was ou

at the edge of town at a fair, that they would com

in about six-thirty or seven, and when they filled

the hall we would start. That was some night:

When I started talking, it was like talking to a

bunch of cold-eyed fish. I started off by quickl

saying, "I know what you want. I know why you

don't like what we are going to do. I want you to

be sure you realize that this has been analyzed and

authorized by the Congress and appropriated for by

Congress. And they tell us what to do, and we'v

been told to do this, so we're going to do it.

Now, from now on let me tell you the things we

could do to make it easier for you, to make it

possible for you to get your money out promptly,

and to get relocated and so on." That pretty well

broke the opposition, but it was a rough night.

And incidentally, I was sent back from my next

assignment at the time of the dedication of the

Baldhill reservoir, and I found to my pleasure tha

prior to the dedication, prior to completion of the

total project, that there had been a flood, that

the project had operated beautifully, that it had

saved damages to Valley City downstream of the dam

far more than had been spent on the entire project

to that time. So that made me feel pretty good.

The other projects were small, small dams, but it

was something to learn on and get experience with.

111
A : There was a very interesting responsibility in the

St. Paul District when I joined it, which would be

different than almost anY other District might

have. and I believe it's worth discussing a little

bit. It was basically tied to the matter of

permafrost, the permanently frozen ground which

lies under about one-fifth of the earth's surface

and is prevalent in Alaska and particularly in

Siberia. In construction for World War II in

Alaska, the Corps of Engineers, the Army, and the

Air Force had run into it tind realized they didn't

know enough. So they started some research on it

and had apparently assigned this research

subsequently as a continuing project to st. Paul

District.86 Before the war ended, as they began

phasing out, I think, they passed it on to the St.

Paul District, because when I got there we had a

research area in Alaska near Ladd Field at

Fairbanks. We had a fine young man named Barney

Trawicky as resident engineer, and a couple of

assistants.

We had a section in the District Office in St. Paul

which was doing library research and supervising

the work being done up in Alaska and also

supervising a contract with Purdue University on

using air photography to interpret the location or

extent of permafrost. It was something that needed

to be done8 no question, because, for instance, in

the Fairbanks area at Ladd Field you were pretty

close to the southern limit of permafrost. It was

in an almost balanced area. The permafrost was

heavy to the north of it and spotty to the south.

If you scraped the natural insulation and the

vegetation off over the permafrost, it could thaw

down very quickly and only have maybe 15 or 20 feet

to go and drop out, whereas further [sic] north

you'd get a thaw right there where you took off the

insulation, but it wouldn't go through the

permafrost. There were a lot of lessons to be

learned. How to live with it, how *to build through

it, how to build new roads without having the

bulldozers disappear down out of sight the next day

when you came back to them.

112
A : There was a thought of having to do it in a future

conflict or in trying to build up Alaska as a

protected area, and there was also a thought of

having to do it if we got into a fracas with some

other country and got over into their bailiwick.

The reason why we particularly had the contract was

to try and find out more about using air photos to

interpret. .

Now during World War II there had been quite a

program in the South Pacific to determine what the

geological conditions were by means of air

photography that showed what kind of vegetation

growths there were, and this would indicate

something. Well, they found out that with

permafrost they could do the same thing in

general. It would enable you to select areas to go

and try and get a new airfield built and to select

other areas that under no circumstance you would

get near them because You were sure to have

trouble. It wouldn't pinpoint the exact extent of

the area, but YOU could pretty well depend that if

you picked the ones that looked best on the aerial

photographs and landed and went there, that you

would have a good start in those areas as opposed

to the others. Basically the intent of the whole

program was to retain and refine the lessons

learned, or those which should have been learned,

in World War II, SO that they could guide future

work in northern climes and also to develop methods

of selecting by air these areas which were the ones

to go and explore first.

Then on the Purdue. [University] contract, Professor

[Bernard] Woods was the main man, and a young man

named Bob Frost was also working with him as a

graduate student. He later became a Ph.D. They

were spearheading this contract. In the District

it was managed by a separate Division headed by

[Major] Henry J. Manger, a civilian employee, who

on active duty had been District Engineer of St.

Paul in World War II. In OCE, as I remember it,

the guidance came from a research branch in

military construction. I remember the names of Tom

Pringle and Bob Philippe. It was a successful

program, and I think it should be mentioned here.

113
Ladd, as I said, we had this small research area.

In order to attract and keep good men we combined

research and practicality by constructing three

residences in the research area, each with a

different type of foundation. And our three key

people lived in the houses that were erected on top

of these foundations. At Northway, a World War II

airfield, for several years, even though the field

was closed, we continued to heat a fair-sized

hangar all winter and kept track of the continuing

drop in the permafrost level underneath it and the

extent to -which the sun had an effect. The south

side was going way down, and on the north side it

was a lesser thawm This program also paid later

dividends in some of the lessons. Several of the

people I Trawicky, Frost, and so on, were helpful in

the Thule work in the midfifties, as well as in

northern Canada.87

Incidentally, the St. Paul District, Manger, me,

and one other, and representatives of OCE

participated, about 1948 in England, in a so-called

world conference on permafrost. We were some o f

the experts present. Also, before I left the St.

Paul District in June of 1949, I initiated, at the

request of OCE, a program of research on snow by

seeking contracts with the University of Michigan,

the University of Nevada, and Stanford University.

Now this was basic research. I mean, what is a

snowflake and so on, to get going into a broader

discussion and research on this material. After I

left, Henry Manger ind his division were moved

[Wilmette, IL]. Then the New England Division

laboratories (pursuing a fairly extensive program

under OCE guidance in ice, frost, and so on) and

the permafrost and snow programs got closer and

closer and ultimately became the snow, ice, and

permafrost organikation. BY now I think it

continues, and I sure hope it preserves the tricks

of the trade, as the U.S. Army Colc$ Region Research

and Engineering Laboratory in Hanover, New

Hampshire.g*

The last spring that I was in St. Paul, Barney

Trawicky c&lled me and wanted to know if I'd give

him permission to visit the St. Paul District

114
office. He wanted to fly down and piok up a car

and drive it back up to Alaska. I said, "Okay,

I'll be glad to authorize that because we have some

need to get you here and discuss some of the

programs, provided you'll give me a ride back to

Alaska/' And it turned out that we organized a

little convoy, including some of the Alaska men who

ran the Alaska Highway Department. We had a panel

truck and two cars, about six of us,. who drove back

up there, and it was extremely interesting. I was

amazed. It reminded me an awful lot of the Ledo

Road. but under different circumstances. It was

paved by a substance we never had use of in Burma.

We deliberately made the trip before the spring

thaw so that we had snow-covered road, which was

real nice and good driving. We spent the nights in

the former construction camps that had been

converted to hostels. It was extremely

interesting. Okay, what else do ,you want to know

about St. Paul?

Q : What about flood problems in the District? Weren't

they usually a result of melting snows?

A : Oh yes, we had the usual ones. The problem in the

st Paul District is

North runs north,

that the Red River of the

and nothing else in this country

runs north. So when it thaws, it doesn't thaw

downstream, it thaws upstream. So your water comes

flowing down, and it's blocked by the ice and it

spreads out, and the Red River of the North could

get to be 10 or 15 miles wide. It's a Canadian

problem as well as a U.S. problem. The Red River

goes up past Winnipeg. There were a good deal of

international relationships required in trying to

work it out and work together, and we organized

ourselves pretty well, to be sure we flashed the

news and the warning to them as fast as it

developed. Incidentally, shortly after I retired,

years later, I got asked to come back up there as a

consultant to the province of Manitoba in getting

prepared to fight a flood which was going to be a

big one, and it was very interesting.

Q : It was one that they knew about ahead of time. It

must have been a rush job, though.

A : Well, yes. You raised little levees about three or

four feet high and that could be enough because it

115
three or four days with some people from the S

Paul District and me as a consultant and the peop

in the province who were going to fight it. It w

a good.exercise, and I think it did its job.

One thing, again, remember that I suggested earli

that You have intellectual curiosity. Wel

recreation was becoming a growing thing in our wo

as far as I could see. I decided my last winter

when activity was somewhat reduced--and boy th

can have snow up in that country--that I ought 

find out more about recreation and what was bei

done to plan for it. So I got permission from 

Division Engineer and the Chief% office to 

visit the Division and District people who were o

in Little Rock and Tulsa and visit their project

They were in a big program with reservoirs and 

on. also a tremendous amount of recreati

development in the Ozarks and some other areas. 

took two people with me, one from the engineeri

division and one from the operations branch, and 

went down there for about two weeks.

We drove around and visited the differen

reservoirs, some finished, some under construction

and saw what they were doing. We saw t

tremendous impact it was having, and the impa

that the use -was having on the operations side o

the Corps projects and the fact that you had bette

plan for it in advance. And I think we educat

ourselves pretty well, went back to St. Paul, a

started putting it into effect on a small scale 

our planning. And immediately thereafter I go

ordered to Mobile, where I hit just as they wer

into a very large program. I then knew more th

many of the experts down there a out the forwar

d

work that was being done in the Corps in tha

direction.. So there was a real payoff. I didn

even have long enough to forget the people's names.

By the way, for a while I was District Engineer o

two Districts. Bill Leaf, the District Engineer 

Rock Island, died on his way to his 25th reunion a

the USMA in 1948.89 He just dropped dead. Th

Division Engineer in St. Louis called me and tol

me to go down there and take both Districts unti

he could find out who was going to replace him. S

116
easiest life in the world, either. I had to sign

all their efficiency reports at that time. It was

an extremely difficult operation, but we got

through it.

And in June 1949 I received orders to take over the

Mobile, Alabama, District as District Engineer.

The wheel had made a complete turn.

Q : You must have

assignment.

.

been haPPY about the Mobile

A 1 I was happy0 my wife was happy, and my kiqs were

haPPY# although I thoroughly enjoyed the work and

life up in St. Paul. We arrived in Mobile in June

of '49, just about 20 years later than when I had

first arrived here, and we entered a District which

was real big and real proud of all the effort it

had put out in World War II. Many of the key

civilian personnel were the same ones under whom I

had worked in 1929. There were half a dozen of the

key branch chiefs and division chiefs who had been

in positions of authority when I was looking up at

the District from the bottom, and suddenly here I

am with them8 still the same young fellow who

didn't know anything back in 1929. I think they

were glad to have me back, but I'm pretty sure they

figured they had it made.

Cn my last trip to Washington before going to

Mobile, the new Chief, Lew Pick-he's the one who

moved me down there -said that the chief technical

assistant down there had been District Engineer

during World War II, and he thought he was still

running the District. I was to go down and get him

under control. There had been one District

Engineer since then, but he never could break the

system. So I was to go get it back into the

routine.

Q : Do you think your assignment to Mobile was a

combination of your being the right man for th

job and your earlier experience with the District?

A : I don't know. I was in the Chief's office in about

March or April. It was the first time I had been

there since Lew Pick had become Chief [1 March

117
Allatoona Dam and Powerhouse, Etowah River, Georgia.
liked what I was doing in the St. Paul District. 

said, "I think it's wonderful." Incidentally, 

had been in contact with him in the St. Pau

District when he was Division Engineer in th

Missouri River Division. I'd had a good deal of

contact with him, particularly around the North

Dakota area. I said I couldn't think of anything

better. He said, "Well# that isn't my question.

It's time for you to move. Where would you like t

go next?ti I said, "Mobile." He didn't think that

was a bad idea, and in less than two weeks I had

orders to go to Mobile. Now that's all I know

about it. I was glad I had built up to it a little

bit. Having done the work in St. Paul, I had a

little better background to start in getting

so-called "control!' of the District.

Q : How did the workload in Mobile compare with that in

St. Paul?

A : Oh it was much bigger in Mobile. A much bigger

workload and a heavy military construction load as

well as civil works.

Q : Could we touch on a couple of the most important

projects on each side?

A 0l Well, there was also a good feud going on between

the District and the Division, the South Atlantic

Division, which was not very helpful. I got to

Mobile and found this going on.

middle of a

They were in the

major construction program. The

Allatoona Dam was about a third to one-half

completed.90 The Jim Woodruff Reservoir was

getting pretty well started, and there were lots o

other lesser projects.91

But at Allatoona there had been a great furor

between the District and Division over a particular

change order. I think we were about on change

order number 150 about the time I arrived there,

but change order 39 or something was still at

issue. Immediately I got a call to come up to the

Division office and meet with the Division

Engineer, Mason Young, who had been an officer I

had dealt with and known before.92 He sat me

down and told me everything wrong with everybody in

119
right, 

y y

Or the system, I hope you can improve it." I

didn't make any promises because I didn't think

that was the way to start off.

Fortunately, as I knew in advance, about a month

later Bernard L. Robinson was to become the

Division, Engineer of South Atlantic Division.93

I didn't know him as well, but as soon as he

arrived I asked permission to go up and see him. I

went up and told him what had happened. I told him

what I thought of it. I told him that I was aware

there was conflict and I knew, as far as I could

tell, both sides were at fault to some extent.

This wasn't going to make life very pleasant for

either one of us if we let it continue. So we

agreed that if we had something of real magnitude

that we felt strongly about, either side, we'd call

the other and discuss it before we let the thing

flow up through channels and bring things to a

grinding halt. We did that, and after about six

months I think we had what you could call a pretty

good relationship between the two organizations.

Q : Do you think the conflict involved personalities

mainly?

A : Oh 1 it was the usual thing. You get yourself built

into a position where you want to support your man

and the other wants to support his man and so on,

and you build it up. Personalities, yes, not real

personal antagonism but bull-headed on both sides.

I think we gained on it.

Q : Well, what was the specific issue of the disputed

change order?

A : Oh it was

things

the approval of the extent of certain

and the price to be paid. A variety of

little things that were important but not vital.

Well, for instance, I found out early and was told

that the .chief of the engineering division in

Mobile was pretty well set in his ways, and that

the chief technical assistant liked to just go

ahead and give decisions and not bother the

District Engineer.

120
while, but I discovered people sticking their

in the door and speaking to my secretary.

after a while I said, "Minnie, what are those

coming in here and asking about?" "Oh," she --

heads

And

folks

said,

"they want to know what you feel about so-and-so

and what you'd like to do." I said, "Well, I'm

glad to know and I appreciate it.

them the right thing."

I hope you told

She said she told them just

what I'd do. I said, "Fine," and immediately

thereafter started looking for a promotion for her

to be moved up the ladder so I could speak for

myself.

Okay, well here I am down in the Mobile District,

and it's much more ingrained, bigger, not a

conspiracy, it's just the way it had been run. I

thought that I had to show them that I knew a

little bit about engineering. I kept looking at

the plans--you had to sign all these plans as

District Engineer, there were a slew of them coming

through--and so I kept looking as I passed them on

until I could find one where there was a point I

thought was worth asking about, and I wondered why

they were doing it that way. I thought, I wonder

if they know, because I think maybe it should be

done another way.

So I called the chief technical assistant in. His

name was Herb Collins. He was a helluva fine man.

He'd been here when I was a second lieutenant. I

said, "Herb, how come we do thus and so on this

thing? Look at this drawing." And he got down and

looked at the drawing with me. I raised my issue

and he gave me an answer. We talked it over, and I

said I couldn't accept that. So he got Buck Weston

over from the engineering division. Buck came in,

and we went through the same act and got to the

same place, and he really didn't know either.. And

he went to the chief of the design branch, and we

ended up with about seven people standing

office.

in my

Then we got down to the guy who really had

done this. When I asked the question again to him

he told me why. And I said, "Wouldn't it possibly

be better to do it this way instead of that way?"

He said, "Not only possibly, but now that you've

raised it, I think it's quite true, it would be

better. Yes, I didn't think about that." He

121
the room, and that's the last time I looked at a

set of plans while I was there. I had established

the point. I sure couldn't try to do the

engineering in the front office, but it was

something I had learned in St. Paul again that came

of use down here.

We had a pretty big navigation program in the

Mobile District. The Warrior-Tombigbee had been

established way back in the early 1900s; little low

structures, the movable dams#

downa

the kind that go up

and The structures were wooden to a

large extent. The traffic was picking up a little

bit, and it was getting pretty dangerous to keep

those things going. They were getting pretty worn

out. So we were in the program of designing and

getting ready to build a dam at Demopolis to

replace three or four of the old ones upstream as

the start of an improvement. That was a fairly

good-sized project.

Unfortunately, the bidder who was low bidder was

primarily a military construction outfit rather

than a dam builder. I called him in before

awarding the contract and said, "I have no excuse

for not awarding the contract. You've made bond,

you've got good capability, but I want to advise

you that you ought to hire somebody or merge with

somebody that knows something about handling water

because this is going to be different." He said he

knew all about it. I said, "No, I know the second

bidder, a contractor from Minnesota, and they are

good and they handle water. The bids weren't too

far different, and you'd do well to try and take

him on." But no, he wouldn't do it, so we awarded

it. He didn‘t give the resident project manager

enough authority. He didn't do the things you need

to do in working on a water project. Sot just a

year later he came back to say that if it was all

right he was going to let Al Johnson Construction

Company take over and finish the job at no increase

in cost. That's who I had wanted him to meld with

to begin with. This one was a pretty good

exercise, and it worked. They built a pretty good

job and we got

things failing.

out of a problem by not having

122
caverns. It was pretty tough, and you couldn

t

tell what was there. We had an awful lot of dental

excavation in excavating for each block in the dam

because you come to different levels, and you clean

it out to a point, and still there was a little

rotten spot over in the corner. And you'd get in

there with dental work and get it out, and it would

open bigger and bigger until pretty soon they'd

say. "You‘ve come down this far, you might as well

take it all out." And of course dental work wa& at

one price and ordinary excavation at a considerably

different price. This went on, and there were

hundreds of photographs taken.

conflict

Soon we had a great

going on with the contractor [Perini

Corporation]. Our resident engineer and their

project manager were just set in concrete on it.

I finally invited Lou Perini [the corporation

president] to go out with me on the division's boat

that was there for the moment and [to] stay until

we could solve it and [to] bring his project

manager with him. He could bring an engineer but

no lawyer. We were going to do the same. So we

went out in the boat in the intercoastal waterway

over in Choctawhatchee Bay near Destin, and we

cruised around; worked hours looking at these

photographs trying to make up our minds and trying

to reach some kind of compromise. When we would

get kind of mad at each other, we'd stop and go

fishing or go swimming, and then come back and do

it some more.

We didn't make much progress, so finally I said,

NLou# I think we have just got to take each one of

these things and go down and arbitrarily agree on a

level. There's no way in the world now that it's

dug to prove it. There certainly is a lot of

excavation that is deliberately dental, and now

we're trying to Pay You for it in

excavation,

general

and on the other hand there's a lot of

work that you are claiming dental excavation for

that really shouldn't be." He agreed but wondered

how we could reach it. So we just sat there with

these two guys with us, and we hammered it out, and

we reached agreement on each one. We made a change

order accordingly. When Perini got back to Boston,

he called me on the phone and said, "Well, I don't

123
on another boat with you!

Q : How much business did you do with out-of-town

contractors? That's not unusual, I know, in other

places.

A : Well, the one at Allatoona was from Baltimore.

These were primarily dam builders who had

experience in that field. Well, anyhow, there were

innumerable projects of that kind. While I was

here we went on to start design on one or two

replacement structures. To show you why it was

necessary, I was up in the Warrior River inspecting

when we were dewatering one of our old locks and

dams, just the lock, to do some repair work to keep

them running. Remember I told you that the top of

the dam was movable? Well, in high water the boat

tows would go over them, but every now and then

they'd still go over after the water had gotten a

little too low, so there would be a sag or two in

the thing. Well, while we were looking down into

this little bitty old lock chamber--there were

about three or four workmen down in the bottom with

picks and shovels working away-a catfish about

three feet long swam through the wall: There were

timber sides to the thing, and they had rotted

out* That fish swam through, and the workmen were

all going after it to try and get him with their

shovels and picks. I thought if I ever needed an

example of why we needed to replace these locks and

dams, I knew where I'd find it.

The Mobile District was responsible for civil works

in about a half of Mississippi, three-quarters of

Alabama, half of Georgia, the panhandle of Florida

over near Tallahassee, and a teensy little bit of

Tennessee. But in military construction it had

responsibility for all of Mississippi, all of

Alabama, a good share of Georgia including Fort

Benning, the panhandle of Florida including Eglin

Field, and Tennessee. It was a tremendous area,

and with the fracas in Korea they suddenly needed

to refurbish the ammunition plants and ammunition

loading plants, and warehousing, and tank repair.

There was a requirement for more barracks space and

training space and so on in places like Benning and

McClellan. And at Eglin Field there was a big

124
amount of effort, and again proved to me the

desirability of the system where the Corps of

Engineers does both kinds of construction. When an

emergency arises YOU can shift a going

organization, people who know each other, people

who understand the procedure.

Q : Did you expand at that point by bringing a lot of

people in from the outside?

A: Some, but more and more we got more contract work.

We got a little bit from the outside, but mainly we

shifted inside because the civil works

appropriations dropped off. The knowledgeable

people were there to be moved around without really

moving. It was a tremendous payoff to me. I

hadn't been in that situation in World War II. I

had read about it, and I believed what was said,

but now I knew it. I mean I had read how it had

helped in World War II.

I had a very interesting thing show up in military

construction. I got a phone call from the Chief's

office on a Friday saying that they wanted me to

come to Washington Monday morning: to be there to

negotiate a contract with a combine which I was to

put together and have show up on the spot on a

classified project. I wanted to know what kind of

project, but they said it was classified and they

couldn't tell me. I said, "How do I put some

combine together if I don't even know what I'm

talking about." They answered, "I don't know what

you're going to do, but you have got to do it, and

you'll be here Monday morning." I asked about

several different things, and when I said woil

refinery" they said, "Now you're talking. You come

up with people that are capable of building an oil

refinery and we could probably do business."

So I immediately .called in all my boys and we

really puzzled over it. We put together a combine

that comprised an earth-moving outfit, a mechanical

outfit, and a general construction outfit. We met

in Washington and sure enough that's what was

needed. So when I got to the Chief's office, I

asked what they were going to do. They said, "We?

You're going to negotiate the contract. You are

125
plus a fixed fee], and we had confidence in these

people.95

Jerry Galloway was the man from the Chief's office

who was zresponsible at this moment.96 Between us

we negotiated the terms in some detail. We didn't

know what it was about. To this day I can only

guess what it was. I'm rather well sure what it

was. It was in the nerve gas field, and we were

the first step and the second step was going to go

on out in Denver under General Sturgis as Division

Engineer out there. But this was a real hot

project and presumably had the presidential

approval to be at the top of the list and

everything was go-zoom, zoom, zoom* There

couldn't be any delays. Here I was. I had a

Division Engineer in Atlanta, but the

architect-engineer people and the operating people,

who were the same, were headquartered in New York.

so the North Atlantic Division was supervising

their contract. The Chemical Corps was involved in

it. And if you want to get into something quite

similar to what I described in India in World War

II 1 well, here we had it again. I asked for an

experienced resident engineer, preferably a reserve

officer on extended active duty, and got one, and

he was good. The rest of the staff we more or less

took out of our hide here in order to get the thing

going pretty well.

It was up in Muscle Shoals, and we got it started.

Oh but it had

but we were

its problems in design and plans,

still under orders to get the damn

thing built and not show any delay. We were to

work overtime. We had to build a thing we called a

phosphate works, which was a cover name. We didn't

know what the real product was to be. We had an

adjoining chlorine plant to be built under an

Italian patent. We had to follow certain

requirements of their patent in order to build it.

The early part of the work went pretty well and

easily: Let's see, Creighton, Daniels, and Moss

were the contractors. They are from Birmingham and

Tennessee. They came along pretty well. There was

a big demand for labor at that time. The project

was full of special materials, stuff that you

couldn't get anytime very quick.

126
Mobile District was no longer in it. This was too

confusing to try and run it the way it. was being

run, and . . . I concurred completely. We would cut

loose8 and it would come directly under the North

Atlantic Division. I said, "Now, wait a minute, we

put our people up there on this thing. Are you

going to tell me we don't have the right to even

talk to them?" They told us to phase ourselves out

gradually. We had a right to step in and protest

if we thought something was not being done properly

until the thing got rolling better. They said,

wYes, you should protect your people and look out

for their interests."

So it went on. I told Lieutenant Colonel '[Paul]

Long the area engineer, if he really got to a

point where the requirements were pretty bad to

call me, and I'd come and see what I could do. It

went along, quite far along, and was under a

mandatory overtime requirement. Everybody on the

project worked overtime. That's the one way you

got them and kept them to a large extent. But it

looked like any other chemical plant. I mean

everytime I go near a chemical plant there's a

bunch of pressure vessels and expansion vessels,

special pipe, and steam vents, and things going out

in all directions.

I got a call from Colonel Long, who said, "We're

just pouring money down the rat hole. It's just

killing me, and we ought to stop but I can't get

the Division to let me. We're paying overtime. We

don't even have the materials on hand to see what

we are going to be doing next week." So I decided

to go up to the job site. We had a big room, and

there were about 50 people around the table. There

were some from Chemical Corps, and North Atlantic

Division, and some from South Atlantic, some from

the Chief's office, an architect-engineer team,

some of the top people in the contractors, and me8

and8 of course, Long and his staff. We got into it

to try and see what could be done. I got a general

feeling that everybody really felt we were wasting

money on the overtime because we weren't able to

plan properly. But they all pointed out each time,

"This is a presidential project that's been said to

go ahead and nothing, nothing must slow it down."

127
it."

Finally after about three or four hours, I said,

"Okay, gentlemen, here's what's going to happen."

(This was about a Thursday.) “I'm going to make a

decision right now that on Monday the overtime

stops except for project items which you know you

need, and you know you've got materials enough

ahead to keep working for a full week. Overtime

without materials on hand is going to be out. Now

I don't clearly have the authority to make this

decision, but I'm going to make it. I‘m notifying

each of you visiting firemen that you may go back

to your offices and all it takes is to get a

telegram to me. I don't want it in d phone call, I

want it in writing, saying you will reverse that

decision. Just do that, and it will be reversed

right that minute. But if I don't get something in

writing by Monday morning, unprofitable overtime is

going to stop. Now, do you understand that?" They

said they did.

Well, there were great screams of anguish, you

couldn't do this. The Chemical Corps said it was

terrible, but I said, "Okay, you know the terms.

You'll be home tonight and tomorrow, Saturday,

Sunday, and Monday, you can telegraph." Well, come

Monday morning, I had no telegrams. I'd had a lot

of phone calls but no telegrams. So I called

Colonel Long and said, "Okay, do you understand?

If so, go ahead." Do you know, in about ten days

we got down a directive stating that overtime would

be stopped except where it was essential: So

somebody just had to take the bull by the horns and

do something to raise the issue.

Now the project was finished in somewhat good

shape. I don't know that it ever accomplished

mucha I don't know, because we were never told

what it was about. But the phosphate plant was

turned over to TVA for whatever use they could make

out of it in their fertilizer business, and the

chlorine plant was sold to somebody after the war,

too.

It's a real challenge when you don't know what the

work is for!

128
Lanier, just north of Atlanta, which happens to be

[one of] the largest public use reservoirs in the

hands of the Corps of Engineers.97 Again, what I

had learned out in Tulsa and Little Rock was useful

in getting organized on that because it was

obviously going to be the kind of reservoir that

was ideal for public use. It has shown so ever

since. It ranks number one every year. I have

forgotten how many million visitor days o but

there's a heck of a lot of them. In fact my family

goes up nearly every Labor Day and goes sailing on

Lake Lanier.

Q l

0 Is there anything else you want to mention about

your assignment in Mobile?

A : Well, yes, there is one feature I think I should

bring out. While I was still in St. Paul, but

announced as next District Engineer for Mobile, I

received correspondence including a draft

advertisement for selling a lot of land up at

Huntsville. Mobile District wanted me to approve

putting the advertisement in national magazines.

The land in question was either the Ordnance or

Chemical Corps depot. I don't remember which. It

was being surplused and scheduled to be sold, and

the big problem was what would the rights of former

owners be? Would they get first choice or not? 1

sent them back posthaste and said that whoever was

acting District Engineer was responsible for making

decisions until such time as I arrived on the

scene, so let him decide. I stayed out of that

problem until taking over.

But I did take over, and this was one of our hot

projects. We were in the throes of selling this

half of the two Army installations when suddenly it

was announced that von Braun and his crowd were

moving over there from El Paso.98 S o the

surplusing was withdrawn and all the money and

effort put in on these ads and the other planning

went down the drain.

About six or eight months to a year later, in 1950,

I was notified that a civilian just outside my

office wanted to see me.

like a German.

They said that he sounded

He spoke broken English, and he had

129
the Mobile District to undertake. I didn't know

whether we should or not, so I said, "Would you

mind if I brought in some key people to listen to

you?N He didn't mind. So I brought in about 15

people, and we sat in the conference room. He kept

writing and drawing on the back of an envelope, and

I kept slipping him a pad of paper, but he would

push it away and go back to his envelope. I wanted

something to refresh my memory when he left because

he spoke pretty broken English at that time, and I

couldn't understand too well. But I gradually

hoisted in that he wanted us to design and build

something that could hold a vehicle that was going

to be capable of going to the moon, but when you

fired it this stand was to be able to hold the

vehicle in place so the engines could be tested and

observed and evaluated. of course, this was

something I had never thought about, nor had my

staff, but we dug out of him all we could. We said

we could undertake it if OCE gave us a directive

and funds. He said, "That's fine, you'll get

them." Sure enough very shortly thereafter we

received instructions and funding to pursue the

project. We hired the Parsons engineering firm out

in Los Angeles as the AE, and so we in the Mobile

District got involved in the missile business

during 1950.

Which is much sooner than you usually think of it

starting.

Yes l We learned that von Braun was a real sharp

cookie. One thing that particularly impressed us

was that he never called on us to build a facility

for him that couldn't be modified for the next

generation. Thus it could continue in use year

after year, and vehicle after vehicle. I think

they're still using that first test stand at

Huntsville. It had sleeves going through it so

many places it looked like a birdcage, but it was

set up to be modified as we went along. Whereas

for the Air Force, we normally built a facility

just to fit a particular missile. When that

missile went down the road a ways, the facility was

no longer useful.

130
the first time it dawned on me to think in these

terms. I knew about the V-l bombs and the V-2s.

Both types had been in evidence on my trip through

England and Belgium. As a’ matter of fact, both in

London and Antwerp I had learned to seek cover in a

basement entrance when the V-l motor cut off and

the click, click, click could not be heard. And on

my way to visit a POL [petrol, oil, and lubricants]

depot in Antwerp, we were running out of time and

the officer guiding me said, "I think you better

head back to Brussels because the visit to the

depot will take too long to let you reach Brussels

before dark." When we got to the edge of town they

had a phone call waiting for him and there had been

a V-2 bomb hit the depot about the time I would

have been there. But I had just never thought of

having any connection with such a weapon since.

SO the Mobile District got started early into this

aspect and then later on down the road, bingo, I

run into the same thing again in positions like

assistant chief for military construction,

chief, and Chief.

deputy

I would run into von Braun

again. It's just amazing how often these trails

open up and keep crossing one knother. I .don*t

know that there is anything more that's vital,

probably is and I don't know about it.

Q : Since you went from Mobile as District Engineer to

Atlanta as Division Engineer, I would like to ask

you to comment on the different roles as District

and Division Engineer. Also, how did your work in

those positions prepare You for your later

assignments in OCE?

A : Well, first, from my point of view, would be the

sudden shock of being ordered to Atlanta to become

a Division Engineer. I had had three years in St.

Paul District and just completed three years in the

Mobile District, and here I was going to another

rivers-and-harbors-type assignment. I had never

thought about anything like that. But I went up to

the Division and Colonel [Harry L.] Fox, who had

been the deputy up there and whom I had known out

in India-7he was in General Farrell's engineering

section in the theater headquarters--came down here

to be Ristrict Engineer. Well, now moving from one

131
pretty well overcome, boy they are going to test

me: So I went up there and reported in. And the

first day I was sitting at my desk and the first

piece of paper to hit me was a turn-down by the

Division waiting for the signature of the Division

Engineer ,on something the Mobile District had been

trying to get worked a certain way for months and

months.

That would have been while you were the District

Engineer? ,

Yes, while I was here. I had talked with the

Division Engineer by phone and visited, and we had

tried all kinds of things. Well, on this

particular one I wasn't getting anywhere. So there

it was for me to sign back to the District saying

“no. " I thought there was only one thing to do, so

I signed it. I didn't say a word to anybody. Two

days later the phone rang and it was Harry Fox in

Mobile. He said, "Weary, did You . sign this

endorsement?" I said, "Sure I signed it/ And he

said, "What the hell?" And I said, "Harry, you've

been down there three whole days. Haven't you

straightened that District out yet?" That was the

end of it for about three months and then I

gradually seeped it back into the process and

discussed it with him. But rather than start off

by having a fight with my new crowd, I worked it

that way, and it worked out pretty well.

Q : And the Division had decided before

A : That's right. They were waiti

decided, once that I was announced

Engineer, it was better to have me

predecessor.

you came?

nga They had

as the Division

sign it than mY

But anyhow, it was interesting to move into

Division that had been supervising me. I went

there along about September. I left my family

Mobile because school had started, and it was

late to move the kids. I lived out in the BOQ

Fort McPherson. I devoted most of my time

getting around to the rest of the Division

visiting every project. I just about accomplished

the

UP

in

too

at

to

and

132
just coming in. I met him again. We had been

talking back and forth of course on this project at

Muscle Shoals. I told him I couldn't believe I was

going to stay very long in Atlanta because I have

had three this and three that. And he said, "Oh,

yes you will. Why not, it's a good idea." Well I

said, "I haven't moved my family. They're still

sitting in Mobile." He said, "Move them. Move

them." So I moved them.

About the first of January we found a house to

rent. It was a terrible struggle, but we got it.

I just got them in there,

Chief's and I had to go to the

office to a rivers and harbors board

meeting. I got in and they said, "Sam Sturgis is

looking for you." This was in late January, so I

went to find the Chief of Engineers designate, and

he said, "By the way, glad to see you here, because

I want to tell you that you're going to Morocco."

This had only been about four months by that time.

'Well, it was about two months later when I left the

South Atlantic Division to go to Morocco and left

the family sitting there again.

Let me put it this way. The District job is

probably the most exciting and fun job there is,

and the busier the District the more fun it is.

The Division job however,

challenges but you are a

has got a lot of

little farther away from

the work. It's more paper work than the physical

work. But it opens a tremendous area for you to

cover and a lot of senators and governors to know.

Q : Did you spend a lot of time on visitations?

A : Yes, but you are once or twice removed. But it is

interesting, and certainly you can call on all the

experience you have had in the other assignments to

make it possible to do the other job. Division

Engineers have a tremendous opportunity to develop

the talent that is in their hands on the part of

the civilian employees

and the military people.

and the District Engineers

The Division Engineer can have a big influence on that if he works at it, and

he doesn't have to if he doesn't work at it, but

it's an opportunity.

133
A : You seldom do. It's unusual.

As Division Engineer You have got a broader

aspect. You stand off a little more, and you don't

have quite the personal involvement. You don't

have to feel like each one of your boys is exactly

right down the line. You do go on things like the

rivers and harbors board, which gives You much

greater opportunity to grasp the picture across the

whole country. You have to vote on these projects

and correct them and so on. You get involved in

calling on the military commanders. Of course, you

do the same thing as a District Engineer, but you

have got a much broader field and the Air Force as

well. You have an opportunity to be influential

with the various governors. You have a much

broader scope than you did as a District Engineer.

YOU have two things: you feel a little bit away

from the job, so it isn't quite as exciting: but

You also can look at it a little more

dispassionately than you can as a District Engineer.

The fact that I had been District Engineer in

Mobile made it easier to move into the Division

because that was one of the largest Districts in

the Division, and frankly I had to stay out of it

to not continue to be District Engineer. So it

made it a little easier that way to cover the rest

of the Division. And. of course, the people down

here in the Mobile District felt like they had a

friend in court for a change.

Q l

0 I What about those experiences as background for your

later assignments in the Chief's office?

A 0l Well, it was ideal training for moving into the

Chief's office, which was not a place I ever wanted

to move into. I wasn't particularly enamored of

the Washington scene. It was fun visiting there

and getting involved in things.

Q : Is it a dream of the Division Engineer to move into

the Chief's office?

A: I don't know. It's a personal thing, I guess. It

wasn't mine.

134
A ll No we'll get to that. I'll tell you. I was

somewhat shaken when I realized I was heading for

Morocco when they were just in the throes of all

the investigations by the Congress into the

complaints of waste and inefficiency.

Q l

: What was behind your getting selected to go to

Morocco?

A ll By then I was pretty experienced. I administered

quite a few cost-plus-fixed-fee contracts. I might

add with interest that I never had a claim settled

by the board of review for claims in the Chief's

office. I always managed somehow or other to stop

them from reaching that stage and discussed them

and cleared them up and solved them without going

there, which I'm proud of. But it could mean that

I must have been too easy. I don't know; I don't

think so.

I had one [claim] while I was in the Mobile

District; Jim Woodruff [Reservoir]. I don't

remember what it was about, but I do know that I

sent it on up through channels, and it hit the

Chief's office. [Manning E.] Manny Seltzer, the

chief of the legal division, called me, and said,

"Weary, what in the hell are you doing sending a

claim in here?" Well, I told him I couldn't get it

worked out because my people told me I couldn't do

some of the things I wanted to do. He asked what I

wanted to do, and he said, "Damn right, you can do

that. If I send it back to you, will you solve

it?" And I said, "Yes, sir," so he sent it back to

me, and we solved it.

Q l

: Your own legal staff had told you that you couldn't

do it?

A :0 Yes, and I didn't want to overrule them if they gave me their advice.

I was concerned about going into Morocco. In

essence it was like coming from a pleasant country

club experience and going out into the desert in a

windstorm, if you know what I mean.

135
for about a week. I landed in Morocco after there

had been a team from the Chief of Engineers' office

there for nearly a week. If I remember rightly, it

consisted of Johnny Hardin, who was the

assistant chief of engineers for military

construction, and a team of experts, plus a board

of pavement consultants, who were all high-level

people --Porter, from Porter & Urquhart: a man from

out of Texas A&M: Bob Philippe from the Chief's

office--and the Division's key pavement engineering

expert, a man named Christensen, was also a member

of this team. But they had been running around

looking at everything and uncovering all the

mistakes, lifting up all the corners, and here I

arrive.

If I remember correctly, I got in there on a Friday

and the first thing Saturday morning I drove to

Sidi Slimane to join this group.100 They had now

reached that particular airfield. So I come in, I

knew some of them, but everybody there knew more

than I did; everybody. And everybody had their own

solutions. I stayed with them all that day. When

we finished there and went back to Casablanca late

Saturday, I stayed in a little family hotel, and I

hoped fervently that this big team of experts was

going to spend Sunday relaxing on the beaches. I

had a key* and went over to the Division office and

spent that Sunday alone, just trying to read into

things# to find out. Sunday night finally I went

to bed intending Monday to go back and start again.

Sometime in the morning, maybe four o'clock, a man

shook me and woke me up in my hotel room. I had

never seen him before, and he said, "You don't know

me8 but you're going to have to take me on trust,

I'm your G-2 and I have certain missions to do over

here: You‘ll find out about

among other things I'm going

to something. Your group of

back from Sidi Slimane late

over and killed a U.S. airman.

have discovered this and have

the car, and these are your

don't know what you're going

you better be aware of it."

them ultimately, but

to try and alert you

consultants, driving

Saturday night, ran

The U.S. Air Police

traced it and found

top-level people. I

to do about it, but

136
of either the Air Police or the French police. I

met with them, and I found out what had happened

very quickly. The man that was driving the car was

the Chief of Engineers' top man in this board.

They were all tired and sleepy, and the driver was

the only one awake. At some point, a few miles

from Sidi Slimane, they all felt a little bump that

woke some of them up. That's all they knew. I

ultimately found out, and the Arab police found

this out, of course, that this airman had been

drunk, that he had wandered out on the public

highway, that he'd been hit and killed by a prior

car, and all our car had done was go over his dead

body, but this was not known at this stage. As I

say, I didn't particularly want these pros turned

over to the Air Force at that moment, and I didn't

want them turned over to the French.

Our solution was to work with the U.S. consul, and

I had a lot of help and a lot of people working.

At any rate we succeeded in getting the consular

court to take it over and talked the French into

letting the consular court have jurisdiction;

talked the Air Force into not doing any more about

it than that. In about a week, we got permission

from the consul to ship these experts home, and

boy, I shipped them out of there. But this is the

way I got into that Division, and instead of having

that week and the opportunity to really talk with

Johnny Hardin and the others from the Chief's

office and find out the technical thoughts and so

on, I spent my first week, literally, keeping these

guys from getting lynched or railroaded or put in

jail or something. So that didn't make life too

easy.

In mid-April General Sturgis had assigned me as

Mediterranean Division Engineer in Morocco. En

route, when I was in Washington, he and his key

staff had planted in my mind the "seed of

conversion," the idea of changing the current

cost-plus-fixed-fee contract into some form of

lump-sum and unit-price contract. General Sturgis

told me, as I remember it, that if I found it to be

advantageous, to then plan to return promptly to

Washington in June and present my ideas and backup

and financial requirements and whatever we could in

137
One of my first moves on arrival in Morocco, after

the first few days, was to ask one of my

Mediterranean staff to present me in a couple of

weeks [with] a study presenting the pros and cons

and recommending the proper course of action for

such a conversion. Lieutenant Colonel Curtis

Chapman headed the team that studied it.101

In a couple of weeks the study was presented

strongly recommending no change in the contract

form. I thanked them and told them I thought they

had done an outstanding job and said I was going to

be gone for several weeks to visit Turkey, Saudi

Arabia, Eritrea, and the Libyan portion of the

Division, and would they please prepare just as

thorough a study emphasizing the positive thoughts

toward conversion. I wanted to really see if there

could be anything there.

Q : Were you leaning toward making a change?

A : Well, the more I thought about it the more I

couldn't see any other way to get a handle on the

problem. Now, if it were clear that all the

experts and technicians working for me were telling

me that it shouldn't happen, then I wasn't going to

force it. They had come up with a well-thought-out

analysis, showing pretty conclusively that you had

better not try and change it. That's when I said,

"Okay, I'm heading for Tripoli and Turkey and

Dhahran and Eritrea, and it will take two or three

weeks. When I come back, I'd appreciate a study as

thorough as this but looking at more positive

aspects of doing it, seeing if there isn't some way

we can make it work as a tool to get out of the

problems we are in."

When I returned to Casablanca, the study showed

potential for and benefits in conversion.

Additionally, the Division had used the extra time

to iefine their funding picture. So with the

approval of General Sturgis, Colonel Chapman and I

took the study to OCE in June with a request for

additional funding to carry out the then-authorized

program. After about ten days of thorough review

in OCE, at Secretary of the Army level, with Air

138
attendance in the meetings and with DOD blessing,

my party and I received the authorization for

additional money, legal and contractual advice, and

approval in principle from the Chief of Engineers

to proceed and attempt to negotiate a fixed-price

and unit-price contract to complete all line items

under W=Y and price out supplies and equipment

expected to be surplus to these line items with a

conversion date of midnight, 31 July 1953.

I was given permission to accompany my family back

to Casablanca by transport, and arrived about the

second or third of July. [See appendix B for Dr.

Richard Firrell's interview with General and Mrs.

Wilson.] I was met at the gangplank by a

delegation including my deputy, Colonel Swede

Carlson, and Chapman, who had flown back.102 And

they said, "We have bad news for you. We need ten

more million." I don't know that I have that

written down any place, but they said it. And I

said, "Who else knows it but you?" And they said,

"Nobody.'* And I said, tiWell, nobody's going to

know it right now. Just keep it to yourselves.

We're going to straighten this out, and we're going

to chase it down, and we're going to get credit for

matetiials and items that are here but that we can't

locate right now. We‘re going to find them. Let's

not raise the issue now."

Not too much is usually said about the other

projects or activities of the Division outside of

Morocco. Could you say something about what was

going on in Tripoli, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and

Eritrea? What kind of things. were * YOU doinq4 there?

A 0l In addition to the District in Morocco, which was

the East Atlantic District, the Division supervised

the Middle East District, with headquarters in

Tripoli, and TUSEG8 which was the Turkish-U.%

Engineer Group, in Turkey. Now starting in TUSEG,

that had been going on, off and on, for some little

time and going from one supervision to another.

But since the Mediterranean Division was formed, it

had been under the auspices of the Mediterranean

Division. It involved half a dozen airfields in

Turkey; some radar sites. It was kind of like a

little District. It wasn't exactly a District. It

had grown up under different auspices, but it was

there and it was effective.

139
g

big field down near where Saul of Tarsus came

from. It was very effectively made use of at the

time of the Lebanon exercise. It was the airfield

in south Turkey that logistically supported the

operation into Lebanon. It was interesting to me

because Saul of Tarsus has always been one of the

people I was interested in in the Bible. Paulv-and

his little town of Tarsus -- was probably 15 or 20

miles away from this airfield. They covered a good

share of Turkey. It was involved in NATO desires

and things aimed at listening and so on in Russia.

Q : And the Corps built the facilities?

A : They were built under contract, a CPFF contract

again. The Corps was supervising it.

Q : Did they handle maintenance too?

A : No

any

it was turned over to the Turks. If they had

real problem we would probably get back and 

help them. But it was a joint agreement.

Now I going back to the Middle East District. The

headquarters of that was in Tripoli, and Paul

Troxler was the District Engineer when I first got

there.103 He was experienced out in that part of

the world. In Dhahran8 in Saudi Arabia, we had the

Dhahran airfield, which was being enlarged and

maintained constantly at the time I was there. It

was a key airfield on the route to India. We

always had something that had to be done there. We

had three water systems: salt water, well water,

and drinking water. It was a helluva project, and

it was interesting to go there because occasionally

I was able to see the Saudi Arabian court. They

visited Dhahran once a y-r I and ARAMCO [the

Arabian--American Oil Company] would send 30 or 40

families home on leave so they could take their

houses and turn them over to the princes. Even

today, looking at the\ landing of President Carter

at Riyadh the other day, I saw the Oriental rugs on

the sand. Well, I've seen 20 or 30 rugs there at

Dhahran, beautiful things.

They were getting ready for some big shot to come

in once when I was down there8 and I went to the

140
came in with curved knives and guns slung across

their backs and cartridge belts over their

shoulders, and their faces scarred from fighting

with the knives. They were slaves and once you

took on a slave he became your responsibility. You

had to feed his family and so on. They came in and

looked the terminal over, inspected all the people,

and spread these rugs over the floor. It was an

interesting situation.

Alcohol is not legal in Saudi Arabia. Fortunately,

I don't drink anything except a little wine or

beer, and I don't do that unless there's an

occasion or a party and others are drinking. SO

this ban did not bother me much. But the people

over there who wanted something else really had a

hard time. And our contractors had a hard time

keeping their skilled labor satisfied without

running into difficulty with Saudi

officials.

police or

Once8 while I was in Dhahran, I was told that two

of our contractor's workmen had just been put in

the jug for importing liquor into Saudi Arabia. It

wasn't that they were stupid enough to bring liquor

into the country. But they sometimes flew to

Bahrain Island, where the ground rules were less

demanding, to spend a pleasant weekend. These two

workmen were returning from Bahrain, and when they

got off the plane one of them showed signs of

having had too much to drink. He did a little

arguing and shoving and pushing, and the other one

tried to calm him down and get him out of there but

didn't succeed. So the Saudi police picked them

both up and charged them with importing liquor, and

it was inside their tummies! I wanted to know what

we could do and was told we could ignore them or go

to the jail and take them blankets and food and try

and work on the government and see if we couldn't

ship them home. That was the only thing, so about

three days later we shipped them home.

It was interesting. It's much different now, I can

tell by looking in the paper and on the TV,

tremendously different. There were a few wives

over there, l none of ours except our resident

engineer, who was authorized to bring his wife over

141
they were automatically at fault. Any American

involved in an accident was at fault, and they

didn't much want their wives in jail. It was a

tough place to build, terrific temperatures.

Usually in those days you took off before daylight

in order to take advantage of the co01 air i n

getting the plane off the ground.

A :

We went from there over to Asmara, Eritrea, which

is on a 7,000-foot elevation plateau right above

the Red Sea. It was a communication facility for

the Army, and it was an ideal place for it. It had

uninterrupted connections with pretty near w-y

place in the world because of this altitude and the

lack of higher elevations in the area. It was a

summer climate at 7iOOO feet, so it was ideal. It

was a large, extensive facility, and the U.S. was

always adding to it the whole time I was in the

Mediterranean Division, and long after when I went

back as deputy or Chief I found they were still

adding to it. I think it is now no longer ours,

probably progress has made it possible to let it

go I don‘t know.

a&field,

In Tripoli there was a major

Wheelis, for the U.S. Air Forces, and

that's where the Middle East District office was

located. That's basically the two Districts that

we had. What would you like to talk about now?

I wanted to ask about Boulhaut Airfield, where

$5 million was -saved.104 Do you want to say

anything about how that was accomplished? Was it

because of the change in the form of contracting?

If you're talking about as a result of conversion,

that would probably be it. In essence the ultimate

costs for that originally converted work

approximated the estimate that the Division had

prepared in the beginning, but we couldn't have

done that without giving the contractor confidence

that if he went ahead and let people go and really

cut back he was still going to make enough money to

come out whole. Again, we couldn't have done it if

the savings hadn't been plowed back into the job to

give more work on which the contractor could earn

an honest dollar of profit. But I'm not going to

try and get into the numbers game, I can't

remember# and a,gain, every time we negotiated

142
Hangar Construction at Ben Guerir.

Portion of a Pipeline Linking Ben Guerir and Nouasseur

Under Construction, 1953.

Concrete Block Plant, Dhahran Airfield, Saudi Arabia.
that answer your question?

Q : Yes, I think so, because you said that you think it

was the change in contract administration, and this

was the first major conversion, and you and the

contractor took advantage of all the improvements.

A : It's a little hard for you to understand, but there

were something on the order of 4,000 Americans that

came home in the first six weeks after conversion,

and they averaged well over $500 a month. Once you

got off the CPFF and eliminated the necessity for

much of the detailed recordkeeping, and guarding,

and bookkeeping, inventorying, and adjusting the

inventory, and al-1 that business, it made a helluva

difference.

NOW why did they do it before conversion? Because

the ground rules under CPFF are such that the

. contracting officer must require the contractor to

do it. And when we changed to lump sum with

different requirements, the contractor just figured

he would guard it as well as he could

economically. On a job this scattered and

extensive he would expect a little pilferage

anyway. Again, the real secret is that if he

needed another widget that he couldn't find in his

stock, he couid fly it over and pay through the

nose for that one trip, but that was a lot cheaper

than keeping 20 of those widgets overseas and

counting them, patting them, and maintaining them

all the time in order to be sure never to be short

one. But as a contracting officer, if they had

come to me and said, "We have to fly an engine for

a Caterpillar tractor out here now/ the answer

would be, "Well, fly it. That's at your expense

because you should have foreseen that and shipped

the engine in time to get it here by routine

methods." And you can't help it, that's just the

way it is.

At the last minute before conversion we were using

a lot of people to inventory. You realize that we

had to convert from a CPFF to a lump sum at

midnight on the 31st of July with supplies in the

warehouse that were earmarked for that job, with

progress on the job having to be estimated; what

144
thing the contractor had to satisfy himself was

that he had enough in the warehouses, plus a

jillion more, that would cover him for the next six

or eight months so that he wouldn't run out of too

many items required in the specific line items

being constructed. Again, there was a matter of

confidence. We and the contractor got together

pretty well. And he and I agreed that you're not a

crook and I'm not a crook, and you want to make

this job smell good, and I want to make this job

smell good# now let's get with it. So in essence I

told him that in my opinion I was going to accept

initial conversion prices higher than I believed he

would be justified in keeping in the long haul, and

he was going to think it was less than he ought to

get. But I was convinced that he was going to have

enough to get by on, and I was expecting him to

return what he could because we could plow it into

additional line items. We would take it away

anyhow in the renegotiation era if it was

excessive. It worked. The morale got better. It

made all the difference in the world. The work

goes smoother and you save time. What else do you

want to explore?

Q : Well, would you care to go into some aspects of the

relationship with the Air Force, some of the

problems you encountered. In your interview with

Dr Farrell [See appendix C] you said that the Air

Foice commander tended to go to the Pentagon and

back to the Chief's office with his complaints

instead of through you.

A : Yes, that's a fact.

Q

0

0 But was it a question of the Air Force wanting to

have more control over the construction related to

their program?

A l* Yes, they wanted to get rid of us.

Q : Didn't you have that same kind of problem in China

and Burma when the Air Force was still part of the

Army?

A : Yes, that's right. As I mentioned, the Air Force

Installation Representative (AFIR)N the Air Force

145
primarily but for the whole Air Force, was a pretty

good man. Ultimately he went from Morocco out to

Colorado Springs to be the resident man directly in

charge of.construction of the Air Force Academy.

As I said, Colonel Barnett was a pretty good man,

and he tried to play fair. He didn't try to find

things that we could get tripped on. He tried to

keep us from getting tripped. But aside from his

staff, who were pretty good people, he was about

the only Air Force type that gave this impression.

And I realized that Barnett was considered in many

Air Force circles as being too sympathetic to the

Corps of Engineers. But I don't think there's any

particular reason to complain any more about the

Air Force than I have done elsewhere.

Q : What about the Corps' relations with the foreign

governments involved?

A *0 We had fairly good relations with the French, under

the circumstances. But you must remember, we were

in their country, their rules applied, and in our

minds all of their rules included a lot of red

tape--certifying iand checking and so on-well, like

we'd be apt to do if somebody else came here and

occupied the middle of Alabama and was trying to

build something.! It's a natural reaction. There

was a language difficulty, which was natural. Not

only th&t# you had two languages. You had French

and you had Arabic, which you had to work in.

Q : Did you have interpreters of your own?

A : We sure did. But on one occasion, I was visiting a

radar site out in the boondocks. We were there,

and we were trying to discuss it, and the

contractor was actually a Moroccan. And the French

were there, and it ended up with the Moroccan

talking in Arabic to the Frenchman, and he‘d talk

in French to me4 and I'd talk English to my people#

and my French is not that good. But we

managed--pointing to things on the drawing and

using fingers and hands, we got by. But that's not

quick. We found them arbitrary sometimes. In all

of your real estate dealings, you definitely had to

work through them, and you had to get their

l

146
the other hand, when you looked at it from their

point of view, they were doing a good job of trying

to get things done without destroying what they

thought was their country's best interests.

We had problems with money and customs. In

Dhahran, long after I left Morocco and was in the

Chief's office as deputy chief, we finished up one

aspect of the work on the airfield at Dhahran and

tried to demobilize and send everybody home, and

the Saudis kept a hostage. There was a captain who

was assistant area engineer. They kept him and

said they wouldn't let him leave until we had paid

customs duties on the things that we had imported

into Saudi Arabia to install in the structures the

U.S. was giving them. After months had passed, the

young man's mother became sick. He received an

urgent request to come home, and the Saudis let him

leave. I immediately put out instructions from the

Chief's office never to let him back in Saudi

Arabia.

We had some of the same kinds of problems in

Morocco. We had a Provo marshal8 the Air Force had

air police, the French had their police. And you

had high livers, on a construction job like that

you had people making big money. They weren't

supposed to have scrip. Only government employees

and the military were supposed to have scrip. The

contractors' employees were supposed to be paid in

francs in Morocco or dollars in a bank in the U.S.

We had one occasion when my Provo marshal broke up

a card game and seized $5,000 or $6,000 worth of

scrip as evidence. It was being used at a poker

game where contractors' people were playing as well

as people authorized scrip. So he impounded the

scrip. Shortly thereafter the theater froze the

old scrip and replaced it with a new issue. This

was done every so often to combat black

marketeering. The Provo told me that this would

keep him from having to try the guy because the

money we were holding as evidence wouldn't be any

good in a couple of days anyway. I had to make him

turn the money in, certify it, put some other "in

hold" until the trial could take place.

147
agents, .and they were watching us all the time.

You couldn‘t very well try to pull anything, which

is just as well anyway. It was to our advantage to

establish good relations. There isn't any point to

fighting people if you can do it the other way. So

we went out of our way to assure that they

understood and sympathized and tried to help us

accomplish what we needed. I'd say these aspects

were similar to what I had tried to accomplish out

in India in World War II. To get the job done you

need a friendly family feeling in the place. What

else would you like to ask?

Q : I think as far .as Mediterranean Division is

concerned, that's all.

A : Oh let's see. There were a iot more things on

di;posing of surpluses. We made a strong effort to

dispose of surpluses. There was a tremendous

stockpile of lumber. It was pretty well sold, not

at profit but not distress figures exactly. A lot

of the equipment brought back money to the

project. It was just moving it from one Air Force

pocket to another but it gave our Moroccan project

a better appearance.

The Navy was starting to build in Spain for the Air

Force, and they couldn't get equipment to build

with SO they finally in desperation came to us. We

reinstituted or expanded the repair facilities of

Atlas and let the Navy representatives pick out the

particular pieces they wanted to acquire and stand

there and tell us which parts they wanted replaced

and all the rest of it. We rebuilt it for them. 

We got reimbursed for the cost of the rebuilding,

and then we got a credit towards the project for

what we shipped to them. I was careful to follow

that because there was a good chance for us to stub

our toes with the Navy if we sent them stuff that

wasn't properly rebuilt. I went up there and

called on them a few times and checked with them

later and checked with the Washington level, and

they assured me that the equipment they got from us

in Morocco for use in Spain was by far the best

they acquired, other than directly from the

manufacturer. So that was one thing.

148
Q :

things like that, and we ultimately turned those

into line item facilities, either as they were or

took the equipment out and refurbished it and put

it back into the process, thereby recovering it.

We recovered or put to permanent project use close

to $15 million worth that we couldn't account for

shortly after I got to Morocco at the time of

conversion. And within two years we had wiped that

out. We had found, properly used, and taken credit

for, or sold, shipped, and whatever--rebuilt the

$15 million that we couldn't account for in

1953-and were back on an even keel. So all that

got distributed into the savings of a place like

Boulhaut, too.

That must have pleased the

investigators.

congressional

A : Oh 1 by that time they weren't too concerned. Yes,

it pleased a lot of people including us. It should

have pleased them, and I'm sur& it did. But I do

not remember Congress taking anY note of the

achievement. meY had made their points in

1952-1953 and considered their work completed.

Q : You have pointed out elsewhere that you didn‘t

think the Corps got good coverage.

A : Oh, yes8 that's right. I don't think they did8 and

they may not want it now, I don't know.

All right, now we worked with JCA [the Joint

Construction Agency] in Paris. One thing we did,

we transferred TUSEG to them while I was still

Division Engineer. It's transferred a few times

since then, too.

Q : Now why was that?

A : Well@ you got NATO more directly involved out

there8 and MED Division was off to the flank. Then

when the MED Division moved up into Italy, it

became more closely related again. Of course, we

subsequently added work in Iran, Pakistan, and

Afghanistan to MED Division, too8 while I was

deputy chief. The big program in Saudi Arabia now

is being financed with their own money. It is a

149
ago in the TV business. We 

had a big program to

put in TV facilities over there with their money,

which is a sign at least that they must think you

are trying to do the right thing. Okay, are you

ready to leave that part of the world?

Q

0

l And move you back to Washington.

A : No I go to Fort Leonard Wood first.

of' '55, I

In the summer

was ordered to Fort Leonard Wood8

Missouri, to take command of the 18th Engineer

Brigade, which is a troop unit. This was good for

me. It was ten years since World War IIN and I had

hardly been near a soldier. But I also began to

ask myself: Do I know what units are like these

days? Do I know what the organization is like?

Can I identify the insignia? A s a company

commander in the 3d Engineers, my new battalion

commander had arrived after having been on District

duty from World War II until 1939. And he had to

get me aside and say, "What are these different

insignia?M I thought8 boy, that's never going to

happen to me, and here suddenly it was!

So I asked the Chief's office for permission to

come back through Europe and England and visit some

of the Engineer units and see what they were doing

and get a better concept of things so I could do a

better job when I 'got to Leonard Wood. And again,

that's kind of intellectual curiosity, but it was

in my direct interest. So I was allowed to take my

family. We flew from Morocco to Germany. They

went sightseeing while I traveled in Germany and

visited different construction units and talked

with staff engineers. Then we took the boat train

from Holland to England and visited some of the

Engineer units with the Air Force who were building

fields around England. We spent about three weeks

in England traveling in and out of London and then

headed for home on the United States, reporting to

Fort Leonard Wood in Aug~&t-i'!%55. Iy__-

Fort Leonard Wood was a chance to getback into the

military side. It was a very unsettled business.

The units weren't too well filled, and they weren't

in top shape either. The war in Korea was over and

the pressures were off. So I was able to work into

it again fairly easily.

150
A : Oh there wasn‘t as much diffeFence as you might

think. 'But there.was new equipment in their hands,

and they could do some things b&tter. There was

some difference in organization that I had noted on

my trip home. The troops were,,better educated.

The last time I had really been with troops, except

in World War II, was back in the 3d'Engineers. In

those days you had a few high school graduates but

not many. We had considerably more in this draft

Army, which was fine, but also it meant you had to

be careful to see to it you kept them busy and

interested so they didn't go off half-cocked.

Leonard Wood was not heaven but as far as I was

concerned it was an ideal place to train Engineer

construction troops.

Q : Why was that?

A : Because you could go out and build a road around

the border of the reservation.

pits,

And you had gravel

and water, and a lot of terrain, things that

were needed and would be useful in training. While

I was there they had one of these Louisiana

maneuvers, and I learned about race problems.

I had a battalion

Wisconsin during

that had been working up in

the summer at Camp McCoy. They

had done a very good job. And they came back,

stayed about three weeks or so, and then took off

for the maneuver area down in Louisiana. But I

didn't keep a close enough tab on things because

after they were on the way down there by train, I

checked and found that their fillers had come in,

and they were about 50 percent black now headed for

Louisiana. And I thought oh, oh, so I immediately

sent word ahead to look out. And I gave

instructions to my personnel people to ship them an

overabundance of white replacements at the first

chance and get the ratio down to about a third. I

thought you could live with it without too much

trouble with about a third. Well, before we could

get more fillers to Louisiana, there was some

trouble.

Q

l

0 What kind *of trouble?

151
that, but not what you would want to have.

Q : Was there a problem of interaction with the local

people?

A : I don't know that there was any because I wasn't

down there. I don't know for sure.

Q : Then your fears were mainly internal?

A : Well, yes, plus the civilian. You get too large a

proportion and you get gang effects. It has gotten

better since then but still, 15 percent is a good

number. You can do that and get along pretty darn

well, but you go up to 30 and you're getting close

to the trouble area. You get up to 50 or more and

it's just like integrating a school. You can

handle 15 percent with no problem, but you get up

to 75 percent and bingo it goes to 90 in a hurry:

Of course, it's too bad but it's a fact of life.'

At Fort Leonard Wood, I renewed many experiences

and I took part in a map maneuver exercise up in

the Fifth Army in the Chicago area, so that I felt

more confidence again on the military side. But I

only stayed about eight months when I suddenly was

ordered to the Chief's office as assistant chief of

engineers for military construction.

Q : Was this a sudden

something? Didn't you

longer?

A 00 Oh I I expected to be at Leonard Wood a couple of

years. But I replaced Dave Tulley.105 I wanted

to stay but I'm sure my family were [sic] happy to

move. Well, I'll put itthis way, from the Chief's

office viewpoint, with Dave Tulley moving on for

some reason- I don't remember the reason--I would

think I was the logical one to bring in with

Morocco still going on and military construction,

and I sure was experienced in that side.106 It

would be a logical move, I can understand it. As a

matter of fact, I got purified in that eight months

as far as not being near troops, so that was

accomplished at any rate. I was the deputy post

commander, incidentally. Now, again I'm back to

development, a vacancy or

expect to be at Leonard Wood

152
brigadier general& so that would have been in '53.

I must have been on the promotion list when Sturgis

told me I was going to Morocco.

Well, one thing, I waited 26 years before I was

really stationed in Washington: Of course, I had

been stationed close at Fort Belvoir when it was

Fort Humphreys, but I also waited until I was

entitled to have a car to take me around the big

city and also until I was entitled to hzive a

parking space right by my office! And all of these

things were very useful. I moved into military

construction, and it wasn't too hard to do because

many of the people in there had been working with

me in Morocco one way or another, supervising me,

needling me, or helping me, but I knew a lot of

them.

Q : Was it something like your going from Mobile to

Atlanta in terms of experiences?

A : To some extent. I had seen them at work. I had

been back two or three times and days on end

fighting for things and getting to know them. So

it was easy to move in as assistant chief for

military construction without any great problem.

When I got there I found to my sorrow that Sam

Sturgis, the Chief of Engineers, was definitely in

bad shape. He was ill. He wasn't effective at the

office very often. In fact, I hardly saw him. It

made me sad because I saw him so little as

assistant chief. I had thought I would go in and

talk with him about my job. I'd seen him during

the war. I had called on him out in the

Philippines. He was Sixth Army Engineer, and I

enjoyed talking with him and finding out how they

did things. But he now had Parkinson's disease and

it showed up particularly when he went up to the

Army War College to give a talk and just about

collapsed in the middle of it and they had to get

him off. So it was obvious something had to happen.

General Itschner was made Chief of Engineers--he

had been assistant chief for civil works--and to my

shock. he announced to me that I was going to be

deputy chief of engineers for construction, which

shook me no end. I hadn‘t expected anything like

that.

153
A* l

Q :

A :

sure why you were chosen, and you said about

yourself and Itschner, "We're different." Would

you like to elaborate on that?

Okay. I was deputy chief of engineers on November

27 1956,

March 25,

and was promoted to major general o n

1957. I was surprised because I had

known Em Itschner for some time, but not very

intimately. I felt that he and I often approached

things quite differently. I knew he was brilliant,

but I was just shocked to be selected one of his

two deputies. But there I was.

What kind of differing approach do you think you

had? This is important because in 1961 you would

succeed him as Chief of Engineers.

Let me put it to you as I said in some of these

other articles. Em Itschner was a workaholic. It

used to bother me to see the amount of work he took

home every nigh& and I used to try and soften that

load so he wouldn't get swamped. One day I

succeeded on a Friday in getting it so he didn't

have anything on his desk. I was real proud of

myself. I put a lot of stuff in the drawer of my

desk that I would just let flow to him the next

week. He wandered into my office along about

quitting time with the longest face I ever saw. He

said, 'I don't know what's happened, but I don't

have anything to do this weekend." I said, "Can't

you get out and play a little tennis, or a little

golf?" "Yeah8 I can do that but I like to work on

something." "You mean you're unhappy because you

don't have any papers to carry home?" "Yeah." I

said, "G O sit back at your desk for just a few

minutes/' I came in with a stack several inches

deep, and he was very happy! This is serious. He

liked to read everything in detail himself. Me,

I'd stay at the Chief's office until one or two

o'clock in the morning on occasions to clean my

desk off, but I did not carry anything home, and I

would not carry anything home. If I felt that it

had to be done, I'd stay there and get it done, and

eat or not eat when I got home. But that was one

difference.

154
Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A:

Q :

A :

Q :

A .0

went into great detail. Maybe I

m wrong,. but at

any rate it was a different approach to things.

What about the different parts of the Corps‘ work?

Right at this point when he became Chief he went

from civil works and you were in military. It's

said that he favored one and you the other.

Em never did like the military end. He got a poor

impression of the people in military construction

when he was working in there right after World War

II And he continued that impression. It ended up

with me devoting a lot of effort to protecting the

military construction organization during his

regime as Chief.

Protecting it from what?

From the Chief of Engineers. Some of the best

people up in military construction never could say

the right thing in front of the Chief of

Engineers. Some of them--one or two--Harry

Zackerson was a fine guy, pretty sharp and all

that. but he was brusque, matter-of-fact, and if he

had an idea he said it, zoom! He just rubbed Em

Itschner the wrong way every time he got in the

same room with him.

Did you have a feeling that the military side of

OCE was going to be cut back or anything like that?

No I'm just talking about in the daily life. He

waLt going to try to emasculate it or anything,

but he didn't have confidence in them.

And you wanted to change that?

Well, if you work for a long time in that kind of a

situation and realize your head knocker doesn't

have any confidence in you it doesn't help your

morale or your output.

Do you think you succeeded?

Oh

Th&e

I think I softened the blow considerably.

was another thing that bothered me. Em said,

"Who should I put into your position in military

155
Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Which position would this be?

Assistant chief for military construction. VJhat

about Eddie Brown?“ Well, I said, "Em, Eddie Brown

quit working just a little bit before World War II

was over in the Philippines." He looked at me kind

of funny, but I told him it was a fact, he didn't

do any work. He thought he'd be a good assistant

chief for military construction, and I said, "1

think he‘d be the worst assistant chief you could

put in there." Well, he said, "I'm sorry, I'm

going to put him." So he put him, and I helped

struggle to try and keep him out of trouble, not

too successfully.

There were others you would rather have seen?

I would rather have seen several in preference to

Eddie Brown. But don't get me wrong. Eddie is a

friend of mine, and I like him.

Well, that must not have helped morale when you

couldn't get the one you wanted.

No it didn't help. And then

wa; an outstanding expert

I had a classmate who

in military construction

but I didn't think belonged as assistant chief

because he was coo much involved in detail. In

both cases I recommended against them. In both

cases Em went ahead and put them in there, and both

times within a matter of two or three months he was

back to see me wanting to know what he could do

about moving them. He just didn‘t like the way it

was operating. I'm not saying that critically of

Em Itschner. I think he probably had a bear by the

tail. I think Eddie Brown had not satisfied

somebody in the Pentagon in his previous position.

He was in the TLO [Technical Liaison Office] over

in the Pentagon.

And they wanted him out of that position?

I think they wanted him out of that position, and

so Em *was putting him in the first position that

came along# but he didn't tell me that. We

actually worked together very well because I made

156
except in discussions with him. Em and I got along

fine. I told him frankly what I thought, but after

I told him and he made his decision, that was it as

far as I was concerned. I didn't hesitate to speak

UP in opposition to what I knew he was about to

come out with if I thought I ought to, but again I

didn't carry it on past that occ.asion.

One of the officers, who later got to be a

three-star general, was the executive officer in

the Chief's office. He did his best to do just

exactly what Em Itschner wanted, and I knew he

did. So when it came time for the efficiency

reports it was expected that I would rate him and

Em would endorse him. But I told Em that the

executive officer [Lieutenant General Carroll H.

Dunn] and I crossed swords every now and then and

if I gave an honest appraisal on an efficiency

report it wouldn't help him, and I told Em I didn't

think he wanted me to do that. So he said he'd do

it, and the officer ultimately got to be a

three-star general. I like him. I think he's

good8 but on that particular job I think he was

looking after the interests of the Chief

individually as opposed to the interests of the

Corps8 if you know what I mean. Really I have a

high regard for this man and later handpicked him

for one of the key jobs in the Corps. I just

thought Em's rating would do him more good than

mine at that time.

But again, Em and I got along fine. While he was

away I went to the things he was supposed to go to

and when he was in, I stayed away from them. I

kept him informed of everything I thought he needed

to know. Every now and then I tried to work around

a little bit and soften some of his edicts. He had

a hex [sic] against inspection boats. Well, I'm

convinced that if the District Engineer has a means

of getting out on the water in his District and

seeing what's going on, he has a far better

relationship with the towing industry than if he

has no means of doing it. So I think it's part of

the job

weekends:

that You ought to get out some on

go around and say hello to folks and find

out what they are thinking, where the trouble is in

the channel and all this kind of business. But Em

157
boats, which he did.

Then I went down to Norfolk and found there was one

still there. It was a Transportation Corps boat

transferred to the Corps of Engineers. It wasn't

plush or anything. I said, "Look boys, if you want

to keep this, don't show this to the Chief of

Engineers. Put it in a back channel someplace

anytime he comes to town." And it wasn't over

three months before he came in one day and said,

"Did you know they had an inspection boat down in

the Norfolk District? They carefully got it out to

give me a ride on it." I said, "I knew they had

one, but I didn't know they carefully got it out

for you to take a ride on.

it.

I'm sorry you found

I thought it was useful.

now."

I guess

And he said, "Yes, it's gone now."

it's gone

Now this goes in surges.

Districts again.

They're back in several

I don't know whether the Mobile

District has one that's any good, but a lot of

Districts do. We just had different personalities,

but he chose me. I must have satisfied him because

I became Chief of Engineers when he retired. Since

he was on the board that recommended me, I'm sure

he had something to do with the selection. But at

the time I would never have thought he'd pick me to

be his deputy.

Q : And what was your prior connection with him?

A : Oh , I'd been a District Engineer and I'd seen him

as a Division Engineer. As I mentioned earlier, I

had visited him in advance section in Belgium in

February 1945, and I had seen him on several

occasions while I was Division Engineer, SAD [South

Atlantic Division]. I had seen very little of him

when he was in military construction in OCE because

I wasn't involved in military construction at that

time.

the

I saw him frequently in the Chief's office

six months I headed

since he headed civil works.

military construction,

Q : What major projects were you involved with as

assistant chief for construction? I

realize it

military

projects,

is hard to separate out some of the

as they continued while you were

chief and Chief.

deputy

158
program under way. There was still work going on

in Morocco. There was a lot of work still going on

in Korea. We had activities in the Philippines and

all through the Pacific, in Okinawa and Japan, but

1 would have to cogitate to remember which specific

projects were in the forefront during that six

months in the summer of 1956.

I was also back again in the permafrost business:

and snow, ice, and permafrost in my positions in

OCE. I felt that I was seeing an old friend. We

were trying to build a facility up at Dartmouth in

Hanover to house the combined research staff. That

finished up much later [1963].

Q : Since it overlapped, I thought we might discuss

your involvement .in the space program as a general

question covering both your assignments as deputy

chief and Chief. But perhaps you'd like to t&ch

on your assignment as commander of the Engineer

School at Fort Belvoir first.

A : It might be better to talk about Belvoir now8

including the selection as Chief, and get it out of

the way, and then we can go back.

I had completed over four years in the Chief's

office as assistant chief for military construction

and deputy for construction. That was a

considerable period and, frankly, I was poohed

outm It was a pretty drastic life, and going to

Fort Belvoir from OCE was my idea of going to

heaven. you weren‘t too far away from the action

and you lived in beautiful Quarters One. It was

fun going back to the academic world and

supervising the Engineer School8 and I looked

forward to it. As far as I was concerned, that was

to be my last assignment. I was going to go to

Fort Belvoir, and then when the time came I was

going to retire. In '61 I had 32 years' service,

which was not too far from the routine retirement

time. After a couple of years at Belvoir I'd be

ready to retire and be real pleased with life. It

was fun getting back to being with troops and with

the school and trying to stir some things up, but

it was a relatively simple life. The pressures

were manageable, and I enjoyed it. I had a good

staff.

159
That was a little out of the ordinary and did

create some tensions. In the first place, we were

instructed, about a month before the inauguration,

that it was to be our responsibility to remove the

heavy snow load on the inauguration parade route in

D.C. if there was any at the time of the

inauguration. That was reasonable, and the chief

of staff, [Colonel] Harry Fisher, came in and said,

0' I presume in accordance with your normal

instructions we'll assign this to the group." I

said that if that's what he recommended it sounded

fine to me. "Pass it on to the group. They'll be

able to carry it out." I did not think too much

about the task and it didn't look like it was going

to snow.

But about three days before the inauguration Harry

Fisher came in and said he just was informing me

that the group was sending a lot of equipment to

Washington. I wanted to know why and he reminded

me of the snow mission. "But it's not going to

snow," I said. He said, "General, when you came

down here you told me you wanted our headquarters

to assign missions to units and stand back and let

them go--watch them, try to fill their

requirements, and goose them a little, but it was

their job. Do you want to change now?" I said,

" No Harry,

aloke."

you're right. I'm sorry. Leave them

They moved that equipment up there and the

drivers returned to Belvoir.

The day before the inauguration, Secretary of the

Army Brucker's farewell party was scheduled at Fort

Myer.107 I had known him pretty well as deputy,

so Mrs. Wilson and I drove up in our car to the

officers' club. Along about three-thirty or so, it

started to snow. I suggested to Jeanne that we

leave a little bit early so that we beat the

Pentagon traffic and get down through that

mixmaster on 95 and beat the traffic to Belvoir.

However, the Pentagon was smarter than I and turned

their workers loose early, and by the time we got

to the mixmaster it was a pretty slow process. We

got home about nine-thirty or ten o'clock and we'd

left up there about three-thirty or quarter of

four. Each time we had to stop on a hill we

wondered if the car could get going again, and we

160
gg y 

I thought, "Wasn't I smart not to interfere with

the group commanderY We got home pretty late and

barely had gas left. I checked up and found. out

the group units were in DC. and they were moving

snow. The next morning at the crack of dawn I went

up there and inspected downtown Washington. It was

just remarkable. The troops had cleaned those

streets to where there wasn't anything to get

anybody's feet wet. So I drove back to Belvoir and

got Jeanne and we came up to watch the inauguration

in a hotel window. It just went back to the good

old command system-give a man a job and leave him

alone.

Well, that was one of the unusual things at

Belvoir. There were not too many more that I can

think of offhand. It was a real fine life. My

family loved it. We had three of our kids home.

The fourth one had just graduated from the military

academy in June of '60. That was about where

things were rocking along when suddenly I was

directed to come into D.C. and be interviewed. I

wondered what was going on and it didn‘t take long

to find out. I was sent to discuss some things

with Senator Kerr, and then sent to the White House

to discuss some things with President Kennedy.108

Q : What did they ask you about?

A : They wanted to know what my attitudes were on

various activities affecting the Corps.

Q : Do you remember what specific

interested in at that time?

things they were

questions?

Were they the usual

A : I don't know whether they were usual or not.

Senator Kerr was very interested in knowing the

extent to which I had been observant of the

development of the Arkansas River and what I knew

about it4 whether I thought it was a good project

and so on, whether I thought we could carry out our

commitments. I was very easily able to satisfy him

on that-because I did think so. I‘d been working

on it off and on as deputy and had fairly

frequently visited the valley and inspected the

161
Q :

was District Engineer in St. Paul. This impressed

him.

Then I went to the White House. Jack Kennedy sat

down and said, "Do you mind if I keep working on a

speech? I must give it in 30 minutes." I said I

didn't mind. So all the time that he was talkinu

to me, the door would

another sheet of paper,

send it back. But he

and he asked me general

I realize that in your

of political pressures

open and they'd bring in

and he'd scratch it up and

was very fine to talk with

questions. He said, "Now,

position you willget a lot

on you." I said, "There

will be pressures applied, there's no question.'

Well, he said, "I want you to know that you aren't

going to get any pressures from me, and if you get

any pressures from people who work for me that you

don't think you ought to comply with or that you

think you can't defend against, I want you to call

me on the phone and tell me. I don't want any

political pressures applied to you. Now, I want

you to do what you think is right, but I also want

instant response when I ask for something, whether

it's favorable or unfavorable." I said, "Yes, sir,

that's fine." And he said, "I want you to have a

phone that connects with the White House for

awhile, and we'll see." At that point I was pretty

certain I would be the next Chief of Engineers, so

I went home and told my wife not to tell a soul and

just keep right on living like we have been

living. And that's what we did.

It sounded like he was talking to you

were already the next Chief of Engineers.

as if

A : In essence he was. As a matter of interest, there

were a couple of times that I got calls on that

phone. Not too often, but the phone rang a couple

of times, and I'd pick up the phone with

trepidation and he'd say, "This is Jack." One of

his calls was about a construction contract just

about to be let for construction of a missile

complex in upper New York State. He .didn't s'

understand why I had to turn to the West Coast for

a contractor to build a missile complex in New York

State. I said, "Well, sir, we don't have to, but

162
y g 

deciding who will be permitted to submit bids. We

have procured good contractors that way. In this

particular case it might interest you to know that

the contractor that's the sponsor for the combine

to build this job is headquartered in New York

City, although some of the combine are from the

West Coast." "Well," he said, "I don't know why

I'm bothering YOU then." I said, "You're not

bothering me, sir, but I would have had to tdi *you

the same thing .even -if the sponsor was from San

Francisco." And he said, "I can understand that.

I appreciate it. Thank you very much." That ended

the discussion. It was one of the complexes we had

the most trouble with thereafter. The contractor

himself was a little bull-headed and wouldn't take

any of our suggestions, and we could not get the

Air Force to modify their requirements until many

dollars had gone down the drain.

You said earlier in another interview that some

people came to you from the Hill and industry and

urged you not to be overlooked in the selection of

the next Chief of Engineers.

They wanted to know whether they could work for my

selection.

Q : Do you remember who they were?

A : At this late time I had better not try and point

them out-17 years is a long time to be certain of

details --but ,there were some people from the Hill

who said I was their candidate. And there were

people in industry.

Q : Why were you their candidate?

.

. A: I suppose because I had lived in their part of the

world, and they had known me and worked with me as

opposed to somebody that had come from someplace

else.

Q

0

0 In industry, do you mean contractors?

A : Yes. there were some contractors or people in the

AE profession, people who were interested in
trying to sell me for the job.

Q : Did they follow your wishes?

A : I don't know. As far as I know they did. I never

had indication otherwise. I knew who was

runnin

Potter 469

and they were running hard. There was Joe

and Bob Fleming110 and Bill Carter

and I don't know who else, but those in particular.

Q : And they were all from within?

A : They were all right around my time. Bill Carter

was a year after me and Joe Potter and Bob Fleming

a year before. They were all USMA a year either

side of me. I knew Joe Potter and Bob Fleming were

really stirring up things. Bob Fleming had the

flood fights up in New England and made a big nam.e

for himself in that part of the world. There were

a lot of senators from up there. Joe Potter had

been the Mississippi River Commission chairman and

in the Omaha aiea and had a big string of

supporters. Bill Carter was well known on the Hill

and in industry and was serving as governor of the

Canal Zone. I thought it was a cinch that I wasn't

going to get it. I sure wasn't going to run for it

anyway.

Four years later I found out more about how the

Chief of Engineers is selected when I sat on the

Army board to select my successor, Bill

Cassidy.111 How much influence politics is going

to have on it, I didn‘t know and I still don't

know. ’ I guess it depends in each case on the

situation. I do know that when Speck Wheeler was

first planning to retire, the Army board didn't

select Lew Pick to be one of the three

recommendations. President Truman sent it back to

the Army and said, "Where's Pick? Put him on the

list and I'll accept it." So Speck Wheeler was

talked into serving another year because everyone

figured that Truman would get defeated in the next

election. And sure enough Truman didn't 9et

defeated. So Wheeler went ahead and retired and

Pick became Chief of Engineers. I don't know, I

wasnt on the board. I guess that was a fait

accompli. But I do know that the Army board that

164
Is there any more on that era that we're looking

for?

Q : From the selection? No, I think that's it.

A: Now. where are we now? We were going to talk about

the missile program.

Q : Two major programs that were important during your

term as deputy and Chief were CEBMCO [Corps of

Engineers Ballistic Missile Construction Office]

and the space program, including the facilities at

Cape Canaveral and Houston. You have discussed

these programs before, but I would be particularly

interested in your evaluation of the Corps'

contributions to these programs and the biggest

engineering challenges that were involved, as well

as anything else of significance that occurs to you.

A : Okay. Well you might say I was lucky to have been

in the Mobile District when we got introduced to

that business back in the 1950s era with von

Braun. So I did have a start knowing something

about it. First, as assistant chief for military

construction I became involved again in some work

we were doing in the line of missile support for

both the Army and Air Force* Most of my period as

deputy chief was wrapped closely around the missile

program, particularly for the Air Force. And

during my term as Chief, as the Air Force programs

began to reach completion, our emphasis on space

construction shifted to support of the NASA

programs.

They were tremendous. They raised more than what

You could call challenges. They were pretty

rugged. They had the usual urgency, the necessity

to get things done. There was always in the

background the obvious feeling on the part of many

people in the Air Force and NASA, why did they have

to fool with this bunch of Engineers from the Army,

why couldn't they be doing all this themselves?

It*s a good question, but it had been set up all

along in the military that we shouldn't duplicate.

We would have a strong organization and it would

support both the Army and Air Force programs.

165
throw overall support from all our activities into

it as I mentioned we had done earlier in the Korean

fracas, and we did.

But this thing ballooned very fast. As usual, and

this is not said to be critical of the Air Force

because there was no way for them to know what they

really want&? the state of the art hadn't reached

the point of knowing what you wanted sufficiently

to put out reputable plans and turn it over to a

contractor and say, "Now# go out and procure and

hire people and build this thing." That just

wasn't in the cards. It could have been if you'd

add a willingness to accept four or five more

years' delay in the ultimate completion, but at

that stage in life there was a definite feeling

that this had to go fast.

We tried to find a way to organize and overcome

some of the problems. It was obvious that we

didn't want every District in the United States

developing the capability to work on building these

missiles. It was also obvious that, and rightfully

so. the Air Force was going to control the design

and hire the architect-engineers for most of their

programs. Likewise since they would control design

of the vehicles, NASA would participate extensively

in design of the earth structures to service them.

There would be some peripheral things that we would

have to do. We needed to have an office with

authority to act, that could work directly with the

Air Force, the portion of the Air Force that was

doing the design work and knew the most about what

they wanted.

We did not want to set up a completely independent

construction agency# however# ignoring the

capabilities we had scattered around the country.

And we had to try and find some way to pull it

together. Obviously, since Air Force work was

centered in the Los Angeles area, the Los Angeles

District became a critical factor. We tried to

operate it by setting up a special organization

within the Los Angeles District to be the point of

contact on that program. Ultimately- it became

known as CEBMCO, the Corps of Engineers Ballistic

Missile Construction Office, but it started off

166
Colonel Tom Hayes, as I remember it, was really the

first head of that

for quite awhile.112

organization and stayed with it

He did a good job of coordinating everything, but

there were lots of jealousies to be overcome, too.

The Air Force had it, the architect-engineers that

the Air Force hired had their own, probably we had

some also, and so it wasn't all sweetness and

light, let's all get together and get through with

this thing in the best possible means.

It was rather obvious we were going to have to get

into the cost-plus-fixed-fee procedures again if we

weren't careful, but we wanted desperately to avoid

that if possible because we had seen what happens

in CPFF construction. SO we tried to come up with

some form of unit-price contracts in

which, or lump-sumhowever, the terms would be somewhat vague

and need to be flexible because you couldn‘t know

exactly what was to be built. But in all honesty,

a t the start we didn't realize

problems this would run into also.

I think I'll just diverge a second

that in more detail. The part of

that was supervising the design *of

what extreme

and talk about

the Air Force

the silos, for

instance, and the general layout of each one o f

these complexes had a pretty good knowledge of what

the widget or vehicle that fired was going to be

like. But when they changed one little item on

that vehicle that was going up in the air, it

changed the requirements for the silo and the

connections in the silo and the size of the silo.

But again, they never had even tested these

vehicles or silos. They were still a dream being

drawn on paper. And so as you got into it, there

were more and more changes coming on, just rolling

on, rolling on, rolling on, and each time there was

a little change in the configuration or method of

operating the missile itself, or its silo or gun,

there was a resultant change in the physical things

put there in the silo to send it off.

Now, as an example, on some of the earlier

contracts for missile complexes advertisements, the instructions, and specifications would be a stack

167
thick. It was just a terrific job to try and keep

UP with it. The Air Force would say I "You're

delaying. You are not moving fast enough. Why

haven't you gotten going with this? Why don't you

make the contractor do that? This is just a little

change# why do you get so excited about it? This

shouldn't be very expensive." Well# we all had to

learn because, for instance, you change something

in the lower end of a missile where it connected on

to some firing mechanism or something else in the

bottom of the silo. Okay, you don't know where

it's going to be, they just say, "Sorry, we are

going to move it a little bit.' So what do you

do? Do you stop work? No, you don't stop work.

You block out, you leave a place blank. That

doesn't sound too bad, and it's not too bad. But

you go along and it may be six months8 nine months#

before that's all designed and You begin to

construct this small detail. By that time the

silo's now come up out of the ground and is a

terrific confusion of wiring and tubes, and fuel

loaders and everything wrapped around it, so when

you finally get around to putting in let's say, one

cubic yard of concrete that you left out, it's

going to cost you $10,000 for that one because of

the difficulties of getting back down in the bottom

of that hole and the number of people required.

The other thing was that it was extremely

complicated and each prime contractor needed many

subcontractors: You had mechanical subs#

electrical subs, fuel subs. You also had a very

great requirement for cleanliness. You couldn't

have a little dot of carbon in something or it

might explode the whole silo or complex. So in

certain portions of the work you had an extreme

cleanliness as though it were in an operating room

in a hospital. All of this gradually soaked into

us8 and to the Air Force. We were quicker to

recognize the added cost. The Air Force didn't

want to recognize the added cost because they had

to go back and justify it, a requirement for more

money. So their natural reaction was well@ we'll

just hold back on that contractor. He's making a

killing. How could he use all those people?

168
Titan I Site construction.
were several--well, it was a complex, everything

underground --so you had a tunnel over here going to

one and one over here going to another, and so on. . And each trade and each contractor had his own

color on the hardhats so he could figure out where

his people were. And there were more people in

that damn hole than could be accommodated. But

remember they were all under extreme pressure to

make their deadlines, each individual subcontractor

as well as the prime. And then, to my horror, I

discovered that we had a subcontractor going along

installing electrical wiring in the tunnel and

about 50 feet behind him came another crew removing

it, and it turned out they were an Air Force

installation crew. The Air Force said that final

hookup and installation would be theirs, and they

or their vehicle prime contractors would employ

subs to do this final modification and hookup. And

we agreed since it seemed preferable for the Air

Force to control these final crews than for them to

step in at this stage and try to direct in detail

the activities of our prime and subcontractors who

had been dealing exclusively with our contract

administration personnel on the so-called "brick

and mortar“ contract for the ground facilities. In

this case it was determined by the Air Force and

agreed to by our contracting officer or his

representative at the site that at this phase it

was better to have our contractor complete the

plans he was following than for our contractor to

reanalyze the job as a result of this change, carry

through to acquaint subs and workmen with the

change8 and then negotiate the change with the

Corps even though this meant that the Air Force

installation sub would be taking out something we

had just put in.

Well, that's just a little sample. It was almost

impossible for any one person, including the

president of our contracting firm or the Air Force

or anybody else, to really know what he was looking

at, or what people were doing. We had to get

things Put together and start trying to make

systems work before you could be sure.

Q : The basic problem, then, was that design was going

on at the same time as construction?

170
state of the art. They had good and sufficient

reasons, for changing the diameter of one of those

things maybe a little bit. Well, that can change

the size of your gun barrel, which is what the silo

really is. And they were testing these all the

time, too, remember. They were firing these off at

Vandenburg or down at the Cape or testing them up

at Huntsville on the engines. All this kind of

business was going on simultaneously.

Q : And new test results might necessitate changes?

A: Nearly every test would call for a change.' It got

clear out of hand. Now the contractors were

worried because here they were going ahead and

cranking the work along and seeing dollars go down

the drain because of overtime and extra people

around, and they felt like they could do it more

efficiently if they could just be given more leeway

on the completion or phased timing. We often

sympathized with them. We tried and brought that

UP with the Air Force time and again, but it

couldn't be. They had enough backing to say, "No

you can't change that. We are committed." They

were the ones responsible, so it was a pretty tough

proposition. We had several contractors start

getting in trouble financially.

One example was the prime contractor of the Omaha

missile complex. I hadn't been real happy with

that particular combine when they first submitted

their bid, but they made bond. They were on our .- list of qualified people, and I couldn't figure any

way to throw them out. Sure enough, they were the

first ones to have trouble. But don't get me

wrong. All the contractors, the finest contractors

in the United States, which means the finest

contractors in the world, were in trouble in this

thing inside of a year. And the costs: And you

get back again to somebody saying, "Well, you only

have to put two or three yards of concrete in there

or you only have to put a mile of wire in that

thing, it can't cost that much money:" Well, no it

can't, but it does! If it had been coming along,

all the plans had been there, you could lay them

out and plan everything, integrate your effort with

the different subcontractors, go through and have

171
Q : Was there a similar experience in the space program

in regard to project changes?

A : Yes, but we'll come to that. We had learned

something. It came along later. It had the

benefit of a learning period, if you want to call

it that. We developed some new words in the

contracting business. There was the "learning

curve," that was one. Of course, that's not too

new a word, but it was suddenly a very important

word. There was "acceleration, cost of

acceleration." What does it mean? It just means

it costs more. Well, how do you define it? Well,

you don't define it. It's just going to cost more

and you're going to have more costs that you can’t

pinpoint the reason for. But it's going to be

there. Nobody's putting the money in their

pocket. It's just tough. There were words like

this. What was the word we used for design as you

go along? 'Concurrent design and construction.'

It got to be too big a problem.

The Air Force said our outfit out in Los Angeles,

the Los Angeles Missile Construction Office, didn't

have enough power and authority. They said the

Districts that we had involved were doing the

building and had too.much power. The Air Force

said they needed to make changes in the design, and

it took too long to get the word to the various

sites of construction in the several Districts. We

finally accepted the fact that what we had set up

was a good way of doing things more or less

normally, but there had to be quicker response in

this program and there had to be quicker

coordination. There would be delays but we wanted

to eliminate our own delays.

Now I again, this

problem alone.

also. The Air

make decisions.

have to change

couldn't get the

we'd go on down

then finally get

was not by any means the Corps'

It was the Air Force's problem

Force couldn't get themselves to

I mean they'd see that they would

a particular feature, but they

gears meshing to say stop. And

the road for a month or two and

the order to stop. Then you'd s

have to tear more out. The Air Force solution was

172
requirements and everything else. This man was to

be able to =yN "do this" or "do that" and

everybody would have to jump. Well, from their

viewpoint this looked like a fairly good deal, but

from the administration of the construction

contract in the millions of dollars it was a rugged

operation.

So that's when we modified our organization and

took this ballistic missile construction office out

of the Los Angeles District and used it as a

nucleus to set up CEBMCO in Los Angeles reporting

directly to OCE. We picked Al Welling to run it,

and we all analyzed it and he analyzed itN and he

said that he wanted to divide it into missile types

or families. So we had three principal assistants

to Al. One running the Minuteman, one running

Atlas, and one running Titan. They were completely

different kinds of missiles with different fuel

requirements, different types of support

facilities, etc. So we gave him authority to set

it up.

Q : What was Welling‘s background?

A : .Oh, he had an extensive background in management of

construction. He'd been the deputy theater

engineer in the India-Burma theater, top assistant

to Tom Farrell0 and when Farrell went home, Welling

became the theater engineer. He'd had the

Baltimore District, and he had been engineer

commissioner for the District of Columbia and was

knowledgeable. And he was the kind of personality

I thought that we needed out there. He was

somebody who was going to go boom, boom8 boom:

We'd had a nice-guy type for awhile and now we had

to go to the other extreme.

I knew he'd have to stand up and occasionally fight

with the Air Force. He was going to be under all

kinds of pressures. He set it up with the three

deputies. We handpicked three people to be his

principal assistants, and they were good. However,

under the pressures one of them broke and had to be

replaced later down the road. But these three each

had complete contracting authority, almost

everything. Welling had to retain just a little

173
were there for now was just to support them and

help them and defend them and try to keep a lot of

this trouble off of their backs if we could.

Q

00 So it was another example of decentralization?

A ll Well, it was decentralization of approvals and

authorities and so on, but it was centralization of

control of the missile program itself into that one

area. The Air Force had an adjoining headquarters

right in the same building, and so these were put

together. phe Air Force put an officer at each of

. these major missile complexes, and they gave him a

title of some kind to indicate he was the kingpin.

We had our resident project officer, whatever you

want to call him, at each of these same complexes,

and we gave him additional authority. But we had

to alert him to the fact that we were building the

same type complexes in several other areas, and

when we turned all of them over to the Air Force

they had to be essentially the same or the Air

Force was really going to be unhappy if they had to

train operating crews for idiosyncracies at each

site.

SO these area engineers had to recognize that they

couldn't take instructions from the onsite Air

Force king without clearing them through CEBMCO in

order for CEBMCO to say to the Air Force if

appropriate, "Look0 we have to keep these complexes

comparable. Now what do you really want?" This

frequently brought Al Welling head on into the fray

with some of the Air Force types. The Air Force

had some smart people in this program and of course

their systems contractors and designers supported

their views normally, so in their viewpoint

anything that was going wrong at the complex was

the fault of the construction contractor and the

Corps. And from our viewpoint we would say, "If

you had only come out with the design in time and

hadn't changed it every minute, just think what a

nice construction job we could have provided."

Many of the construction contractors were getting

in financial problems because the processing of a

change order b:as such that our field office and the

- -~ . Ai r Force king on the spot would have to agree on

174
Construction contractor, but the Air Force

would have to say, "Yes,

kinq

I think it's about right,

which he wouldn't do. So here would come two

separate stories into Los Angeles on everythingThe Air Force saying, "Bell, they're just throwing

this money away. They don't know what to do. They

don't even know what it's going to cost." And ours

saying just the opposite: And then the change

orders would stack up, and who was to make the

decision? The Air Force had to get the money. The

contracting officer could say to the contractor,

"Okay, I'll award you that much," but unless he had

money to back it up, it didn't do any good. And

the Air Force had their problems procuring the

additional money. so the situation got pretty

tough.

Q : The contractors couldn‘t get paid?

A : On most of these changes they couldn't get paid

until you had a signature on the dotted line. They

weren't willing to sign for many of the changes

that we, as well as the Air Force, wanted them to

sign for on the basis of what we could sit down and

analyze and come up with as a dollar figure. But

it dawned on us slowly that you weren‘t ever going

to be able to justify an exact dollar figure. You

z

might do

studied

could do

get to a

of cost

entitled

it ten years later when you wen6 back and

after the fact. As is always true, you

better then. But we weren't ever going to

point where we could be absolutely certain

and state this is what the contractor's

to.

So with the assistance of legal branch in theChief's office, Manny Seltzer and I worked on the

problem hard with military construction and

CEBMCO. We finally designed some new principles

and concepts and got with CEBMCO and told them what

we thought they ought to try and do and whether we

thought we were being rooked or not. If we didn't

break the logjam the whole program was going to go

down the drain. So the Chief's office more or less

Put its neck on the line and said, NYou're

authorized to do these things, now do them!" And

it took a devil of a lot of negotiation.

175
contractors and their negotiators were honest,

sincere people. It was hard for our own people to

go out 0n.a limb and recommend approval of some of

the costs that were going to have to be approved if

the contractor was going to go ahead freely. You

might say we should cancel the contract. Oh boy#

we tried in some cases, but basically it's too late

if you want to make the deadlines. You've got to

beef the contractor up and get him moving, and

changing horses in midstream in that kind of a

situation would really be something.

so over a period of several years, we paid more

than we ourselves could clearly see and justify,

yet less than the contractors could show it had

cost them. Then you are back practically on a cost

plus fixed fee. Yes, you are, no question about

it, but at that stage in life we're too late to

even do that. So we just had to make what

settlements could be made.

While this was going on the Air Force picked their

opportunity to attack. Curtis LeMay cut loose as

Chief of Staff of the Air Force. At the Washington

level we had a rugged time for awhile. As I

remember it, it all took place when the Chief of

Engineers, General Itschner, my boss, was out of

the country on an overseas inspection trip. So as

deputy I suddenly was the acting Chief of Engineers

for all this controversy. I was constantly

explaining to the Chief of Staff of the Army, or

DCSLOG [Deputy Chief of Staff, Logistics], or the

Chief of Staff of the Air Force, or the Secretary

of the Air Force, or Secretary of Defense how we

got into some of these binds and why we must have

that much more

and turn it all

money8 and why we should not give UP

over to the Air Force.

As a matter of fact, for about two weeks I briefed

some crowd in the Pentaion almost every morning.

And each time you had to put it in a different

slant because it was a different group, different

objections, different goals, and I couldn't have

made the grade if it hadn't been for our Strategic

[Planning] Group at the Army Map Service.113 

Colonel John C. H. Lee was running the group, and

he and I would be there 8, 9, 10, 11 o'clock at

176
,?

Q :

A :

Q 0l

A :

Q :

A :

Q mm

, g, 

gg

to say tomorrow morning? And he would get on the

phone after we had reached some conclusions and

call the Army Map Service, and then he‘d say,

"We'll have them ready." On one occasion, I

started talking in the Pentagon at let's say eight

thirty, and the charts hadn't arrived yet. But I

started talking, and as I got to a point I said,

"Now on the first chart," and the first chart would

come0 and I went through that whole thing without

knowing whether the charts were there or not.

Was it just a question of the money that was being

spent on the missile program or was it 61~0 a

question of whether the Corps should be

construction?

doing the

That's right, it was the whole thing al

together. The Air Force military thought

their opportunity to get the Corps out

business.

WhY?

1 wrapped

this was

of their

Well, because they thought they had a good case

here for saying, “This program must be concentrated

under one head.“ And they did have a good case.

When was this?

Offhand I don't remember . . . . It was probably

July of 1960. This went on every day for about two

weeks. The first time we'd be over at DCSLOG,

let's say, and we'd try and get their support.

Somewhat reluctantly they might give it. And the

next time it would have to be up to the vice chief

of staff of the Army and then it would go the next

day to the Army Chief of Staff and then go to the

Secretary of the Army and then the next day we@d

start to work up through the Air Force channels,

working our way up to DOD level. There were

constant innuendoes

this time,

being given to Congress all

and we were constantly in the process of

responding and giving the Secretaries an answer

that made sense and could be backed up. So it was

not a very happy time.

Meanwhile construction was going on.
getting pleas from contractors and, of course, they

were getting pressures from us and the Air Force

not to ask for any more money. But the price kept

mounting and mounting. We really hadn't yet gotten

real control of it. We were still negotiating and

refining and pricing change orders two or three

years after we had started on some of them.

As the later generation Minuteman reached the

construction stage, improvement in the process of

administration of the contract could be seen. The

command setup that had been worked out seemed to be

shaking down. Most of the senior people involved

on both sides had begun to see how they could work

better together and to appreciate the other man's

problem. Our people began to realize that no

matter how much we say, we need plans, and leave

them alone4 don't change them. It could not be

helped because every day through the testing

program something shows up that requires change.

And on the other hand0 the Air Force people began

to see that there were costs in

can‘t quite see because of the

restricted area.

there that you

complexity in a

The work was underground on many of these

complexes, and again, as I say, you walk around

down there and see all these different-colored hard

hats and ask yourself who's in control here? Well,

not any one person really has control except that

there is a general overall supervision and

control. And again, the cleanness requirements in

the fueling areas were just out of this world. It

was more than the kind of cleanness requirements

that you would need in a place where you were

putting high-quality watches together. Truly

everyone that worked in or entered these areas was

required to wear a white apron or coveralls, with

canvas covers over the shoes. We were informed

that if one little dot of a contaminant--a dot

smaller than could be made with a sharpened

pencil --remained in the tank or piping or pump when

certain fuels were introduced, there could be an

explosion. That's hard to understand, but we had

to accept it.

178
turned. I think that at the end of that two weeks'

period the Air Force had gotten tired of attacking

and not winning. The questioning just gradually

sloughed off and we went out of our way to give

them more than they were demanding all the time. I

think that just about says it. Actually, the

missile construction program worked. It cost more

money than it should have, but it didn't cost more

money than it would cost again if you started under

the same circumstances.

The secret again is to know in advance what you

want--that has been learned in

fields

many I many

--and make changes, but not too many. For

instance, I learned that when I built this house

we're sitting in here in Mobile. I didn't have

much money. I wanted to stay within a certain

figure that I could finance. My wife and I visited

friends and looked at their houses and measured

their different rooms that we liked and came to a

point where we drew up a definitive plan that we

thought was just what we wanted. But to play safe,

I turned that over to a good architect to rework so

that we wouldn't blame ourselves afterwards. But

then the architect and I told my wife she could

change anything she wanted right then, but once

they started excavating the hole in the ground, she

was not going to change anything.

This wasn't too easy, but it worked, and we started

construction about the middle of January 1951.

There was no rain for 30 days. We got. the sheeting

on the roof by then so that we lost no time *due to

rain. In three months8 we completed the house and

were in it. That couldn't have happened, as the

contractor said, if there had been major changes.

And he added that we must have prevented at least a

25 percent increase in

been the cost. Oh,

what would normally have

there were a couple of little

things that didn't fit. Just as I walked out of

the house a year-and-a-half later after picking my

family up to move to Atlanta, I looked up under our

bathroom where tile had been cracking for some time

and I realized there was a cantilever beam

stretching all the way from the back wall about 20

feet to the front. The reason it was cantilevered

was because on one end it was sitting on top of the

179
upstairs. But, as I say, I didn

t discover this

until we were getting ready to get in the car and

go So my oldest son and I got a six-by-six and

cut it a little longer than it looked like it would

take. And with a sledgehammer we whacked that

support in and closed the downstairs French door

for awhile. It stayed that way until we returned

at retirement. We had to design a new way to

support the beam. That's why there is a little

wall there. We moved the beam over.

My point is that I know that changes are far more

expensive than work originally designed and carried

out in the normal construction phase. Now, there

was terrific pressure on the people that worked on

this program. CEBMCO's management people were

really under pressures. The Districts were unhappy

as we took the management away from the individual

Districts like the Omaha District and put it in the

hands of CEBMCO. But we did our best to and

succeeded in making use of the capabilities of the

existing Districts in the area for many of the

administrative requirements such as real estate,

and auditing, and the like. We borrowed people

from the local District for the CEBMCO field office

in many cases and then gradually, as the work

finally petered out, they moved back over to their

original Districts.

So we got some of the best of two worlds. It was

not what we had originally contemplated, and part

of the reason you'll find later on down the road.

Later programs come along like'your missile program

of today's era being managed by Huntsville. They

have taken advantage of many of the lessons that we

learned, and they still take support from local

Districts. But, as I understand it, they control

it out of Huntsville much as a separate Division;

That's basically the same thing we ended up with.

Is that enough on the missiles?

Q : Yes, I think so.

A : I might mention something interesting. As I say,

I've been involved off and on in the missile

business from 1950 until I retired and later,

actually, and I have never seen one of these

widgets take off from the ground. Every time I

180
g

ready to watch it take off something happened, and

they have to postpone the operation. Usually I've

said, "Well, I'll wait and see it another time."

I've found out also that you can see a whole lot

better on the TV or the movies than you can at the

site. Finally, I got to the point where I said,

"Don't schedule me there at a time when they are

going to have an exercise because I'll jinx it." I

went up to Tullahoma, which the Mobile District had

been constructing for the Air Force-1 went up

there as deputy chief or Chief, I've forgotten

which--and they said, "Well, we can run you a test

in our wind tunnel anyhow. That's for sure." so I

said, "Fine." We went to look at the wind tunnel

test and they lost their power! So I've never

tried since.

Q : Shall we move on to discuss the space program and

your involvement in it?

A : Yes, the space program followed along logically.

After I became Chief it was obvious that there was

going to be a space program, and I wanted to offer

the services of the Corps to help on the

construction if NASA was interested. I felt that 

with all we had learned in the missile business we

ought to be able to help them no end. We had

talent. We knew the industries that would do the

work. I called up Senator Kerr and said, "Okay,

now I want to come and ask you something." so I

went over to see him and told him all this. And he

said, "I have been thinking along the same lines.

I wanted to find out if you would be willing to

work with NASA. Now we don't want you to take over

NASA.@' And I said, "We don't either."

Q : Was Senator Kerr one of the great friends of the

Corps at that time?

A : Not necessarily the greatest but he was one of

them. He was also the man who I believe had

recommended [James E.] Webb as the administrator of

NASA. So I said, "If you think it's worth it, are

you willing to get me an appointment with Webb to

discuss it?" He said he'd do more than that, he'd

set it up and we would both be there. I don't

remember the exact detail but we did get together

181
Or three times and in Webb's office a lot of

times. He was just getting set up and the prospect

of letting the Corps act as the agent for NASA on

the construction side was brought up, and Webb said

they had been thinking about it and they didn't

know whether they wanted to or not. There were

advantages both ways. And I said I could see

that. There is a tremendous amount of talent that

is available that could go on it instantly and

there is some experience that has been learned the

hard way that could be useful to you. As I

remember it, it was just left that they were going

to think about it and would be back with me. And

before too long they were back with me.

Now I what all went on behind the scenes during that

period I have no idea. But I believe we did sell

the job on the basis that we had the talent: the

organizations were intact and could be used.

CEBMCO could pick right up on NASA work. As we had

learned, we could make changes in our organization

and procedures in order to fit their requirements.

We had already been doing the work down at

Canaveral that they took over. By we. I mean the

Jacksonville District of the Corps. We had good

connections with Huntsville through the Mobile

District. Again von Braun shows up. I had asked

Webb to check with von Braun to get his reaction,

and I think probably he was one of the stronger

supporters we had in NASA. At any rate8 they

accepted the concept of the Corps being NASA's

construction agency under their overall management,

and we started to set up the organization necessary

to give them this support and to work out the usual

arrangements for handling the funding, preparing

the defense before Congress, and all this kind of

business. But it was relatively easy.

Now they were in the same fix as the Air Force had

been earlier. They were still designing [to] some

extent while they were building, but to a much

lesser extent than the missile program. Much of

the state of the art had been developed under the

missile program. So there were some of the same

problems that had to be overcome or lived with or

lived around in the space program as there had been

in the missile [program] and that was natural. But

182
had learned from the missile program.

Everything that NASA did, however, was tremendous

in size and scope. When we took on that big

building down at Canaveral, they impressed it on me

by giving me a ride in a helicopter. I was sitting

way, way up in the air and the pilot says to me,

"You are sitting on the roof of that new building,

the missile assembly building." And I must admit

that I was somewhat impressed.

Responsibility for the design work was split as you

probably realize. For much of the physical brick

and mortar business, we handled the design as well

as the construction. The technical part of the

design was strictly NASA's, and the construction

was the usual team effort where our construction

contractors would carry up to a certain point and

then the air space operators would move in and

finish it. We had far less problems fund-wise.

There was some disappointment on the part of some

of the working

doing all

level in NASA that they weren't

the work. Here was that

Engineers showing up again.

Corps of

But it was nothing to

the extent that had gone on in the other system.

We put out a lot of effort. We put special

assistants in several field activities. We did

everything we could do to speed the program up. We

put an officer over in the NASA office as our

liaison *with them. I went over there frequently,

as did the top OCE people involved, and sat down

with him and was briefed. We went out of our way

to maintain an attitude of here we are, what is it

you need, and tell us what you want and what the

ground rules are and we'll get going. It was a

tremendous program and it's really something. I

still look at a full moon and say, UWell, I know

they got there, but I don't believe it." It's

really something!

Everything wasn't sweetness and light, but there

were nowhere near the problems that came up in the

missile program and for good reason. We had one

problem that interestingly enough involved the

foundations for that big down at

Canaveral. After

building

the building was erected,

183
p-y-- F--~

Vertical Assembly Building, Complex 39, Merritt Island, Florida.
Q :

what happened. So they ran a little exploration

hole down in there and discovered that the piles

were cut off long before they reached the so-called

rock. So then we had to design a truss to support

the building in that area and tried to find out

what had happened. And what had happened was real

easy* We should have known better. The contractor

was using a vibratory hammer and it was just doing

fine, but at the end of a shift they shut it down.

It wasn't until the next morning that another shift

started working on it and by then the pilings were

~frozen~ in the sand and didn't move when they

reapplied the pressure to them so they figured they

were down to rock. Fortunately, as I say, one of

our people down there got curious. It cost some

money, but at least it didn't have any serious

consequences to the program.

How much of your time as

involved with this program?

Chief did YOU spend

A 00 Well, that first six or eight months or so, I spent

quite a bit. But thereafter I didn't get bogged

down in the thing. Webb was a good man to work

with. We had a good friendly relationship. When I

retired, he awarded me the NASA Medal for

Leadership, which was real nice of him. I had a

lot of respect for him, and NASA had some pretty

good procedures and certainly produced results.

Q : Would you say that the contributions to the space

program were the outstanding achievement of the

Corps during your term as Chief?

A: Well, they were sure one of them. It depends on

your point of view. I personally think that one of

the best accomplishments was to keep the Corps of

Engineers alive. Of course, you also had the war

in Vietnam beginning to develop, and we had the

civil works program boiling along at a pretty good

rate. We had changes in the military organization

and so on. I don't know, it's kind of hard to say.

The ArkansasRiver program got going along, . and to

this day I am amazed at its success. Long before I

retired I was down in the Arkansas basin area, and

they just kept pinning me down on when it would be

185
Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

commit my successor. But they wanted to know when

it was going to be ready, and finally I said,

"Okay#e it will be in 1970." And five years after I

retired, it was ready. I'm amazed that it worked.

It was a good program. It was a big program. It

took a lot of overseeing, however8 we didn't have

really any organizational troubles during my time.

We had outstanding people except for the one thing

we are going to talk about here in a few minutes.

I don't know of anything else you want now. I

think the space program has been well covered.

Doing the job correctly, being responsive, getting

construction done on time, having a good

organization, I believe are the highlights in the

era of Corps support of NASA.

Could we talk about the reorganization of the Army

during your term as Chief?

When did you say it was proposed?

In 1962. You were Chief at the time, and the Corps

did not lose its Chief as others did. I would be

interested in your giving some of the background

that you recall from this reorganization effort.

General Hall was the man we put on that board,

wasn't he?114

Yes, he was in personnel.

So he was in on the whole works. We detailed him

to that study board or whatever they want to call

it. Yes, I remember. I'll do the best I can.

Well8 I'm particularly interested in how much you

feel that your own personal response to what was

being proposed helped the Corps keep as many of its

functions as it did.

You're going to make me sound like I'm tooting my

own horn if I'm not careful.

Well, I'd say that some others have suggested that

your role was crucial. Let's put it this way, you

were Chief of Engineers at the time and if your

response had been different the Corps could have

186
A : Yes, I do. Well, as we've said earlier, I wasn't

looking for the job of Chief of Engineers. I'd

figured I'd come through some pretty tough battles

up there in the fifties as deputy chief. I wasn't

hunting for an opportunity to go through it any

more# and suddenly I'm going to be the Chief of

Engineers. It was a great honor and a privilege.

One reason this turned out so nicely was that I was

told by the vice chief of staff to stay in Quarters

One at Fort Belvoir. That was time consuming for

me riding back and forth, but the family was very

happy with the decision. So I enjoyed it too.

When I came up to the Chief's office, I didn't have

too much trouble getting read into things because I

hadn't been gone but about eight or nine months.

Very shortly thereafter I became involved in the

space business and that was an exciting opportunity

and took up a lot of time. It was a big feather

[in its cap], I thought, for the Corps to be in

that business.

Then good old Secretary McNamara reared his ugly

head.115 We kept getting more and more

indications of reorganizations and changes and

switching missions and things of this kind. I had

to work fairly closely with some of his staff on a

lot of things. We were in the housing business for

the Army. One thing that got me down was when I

was sent to meet with a Mr. Yarmolinsky, who had

moved into office maybe about two months

before.116 I checked up and found that his

principal experience prior to this time had been as

the executive of some charitable organization with

a staff of about four. And I was there discussing

with him how we should organize for the housing

program. I'm just trying to remember what

happened. He began explaining to me the ways you

manage and execute and .organize. There were no

ifs, ands8 or buts; you did it that way or it was

no good. And I said, "I think we're supposed to be

analyzing this, aren't we?U Well# this was

typical, to my way of thinking, of much of the

attitude during the McNamara regime. They were the

experts on everything. And on many occasions, many

187
had already been reached, and the studies were

primarily to prove that the decision had been

correct. This applied on many things including the

reorganization of the Army.

Now as far as any decisions we got for the Corps,

most of them weren't too vital except for the

reorganization of the Army. And the reorganization

of the Army, as far as I could see, had been an

edict from DOD and at the Secretary of the Army

level and that of Chief of Staff. They had more or

less been pointed in that direction. Now8 how

enthusiastic they were about being pointed in that

direction, I don't know. But I suddenly woke up to

the fact that the Army was going to be reorganized

and all the technical services were going to be

decapitated. They were going to lose their head

men. They were going to be treated the same as the

artillery and infantry and other combat branches

had been treated in recent years. It didn't make

too much sense, but there it was. It was going to

happen without much question. We had always been

able to combat something like this to a degree on

the basis of the civil works program, but in the

eyes of the people working this thing up, that was

just a little problem on the side that shouldn't be

a governing factor. We tried our best. We wrote

the right things up. We made analyses. I was

fortunate in that General Decker was Chief of Staff

at that time.117 He had been chief of staff of

the Sixth Army at the time Sam Sturgis was Engineer

for the Sixth Army and had learned a lot about the

use Engineers can be put to in wartime and the

desirability of maintaining the capabilities that

we had.

Q : Do you think some had forgotten that by 1962 since

it was a time of peace?

A : Oh I yeso Let me put it this way. This same trend

happens every time after a war when you reach a

point where the commanders and those in fairly high

position who have had experience in combat across

the board have passed on, retired, and disappeared

from the scene. And the young ones coming along

are' gun9 ho, but they don't recognize the

188
river crossing support, when suddenly they begin to

see that there is some advantage in having

engineers for removal of mines and for ferrying

operations and the like. And this was one of the

interim periods.

Now Decker# going back through his service with

Sturgis, had a lot of respect for the Corps. He

had told me with obvious pleasure that he was

pleased to see me become Chief of Engineers. I

don't know how much he had to do with accomplishing

it, but he was Chief of Staff when I made it. And

I had worked with him while I was deputy chief. In

fact# he intervened in the tail end of that Air

Force fight just at the right time. He supported

us and more or less helped us stand down LeMay and

a few other people. I said I didn't know the

turning point, but General Decker's support was

really the culminating action that started the

conflict downhill instead of pushing up all of the

time.

So now I went to see him about the reorganization

and talked with him. Basically, I got the feeling

that he didn't .necessarily like the concept, but it

was something that had to be analyzed, and they

hadn't made up their minds yet--don‘t give up the

ship. But it was pretty obvious to me that this

reorganization and elimination of branch chiefs was

the coming trend. And a lot of people in the Army

were pleased to see it happening without any

question because, basically, in my opinion, the

infantry, armor, and artillery crowds had felt like

they had lost their father and mother. WhY

shouldn't the ordnance# Engineers, quartermaster,

and all the rest of them do it too? So many people

in the Army were pleased with the coming change.

I'm an old-fashioned fogey and don't believe

infantry, armor., and artillery should have lost

their chiefs either. I believe it was desirable to

have some senior attention focused on the

development of the careers of the people in each of

these branches. I think we lost something when we

took that capability away because now you just have

in essence a few motivated lower ranking people

189
branches, and the same thing must be true now for

the quartermaster and signal [corps] and everything

because the personnel business is run by short-term

assignment. Except that the Chief of Engineers can

still talk and suggest and at least be looking.

Q : Didn‘t the combat branches lose the personnel

function before 1962?

A: Yes, that's right.

Q

l

l Then your philosophy was that it was an

accomplished fact. Just because others had lost

personnel didn't mean the Corps should.

A : And we had the problem of the Corps of Engineers,

it wasn't a problem, it was a pleasant situation,

of having the civil works program. We had to

retain some degree of existence in order to

continue to do that. Even between wars the Army

wasn't necessarily too excited about supporting the

Corps of Engineers. They thought that in many

instances we had a boondoggle. But when you got to

the people who had seen the Corps in action in

major wars, you got pretty good support because our

point was made that this civil works program gave

us an opportunity to develop talents and

experience and skills of the personnel that in turn

paid off in the war to the military. And there's

no doubt about it, it did happen. Your Wheelers

and your Clays and your Clarkes and all those

people. NOW Clarke didn't have any real connection

with civil works except he was in the system. He

maY not realize it, but being in

benefiting to an extent. But

the

had

system he was

an awful lot

of people who did well and showed up well and got

an opportunity to do big things that they couldn't

possibly have done if you had nothing but some

t sidewalks and some tennis courts that you get

funded normally in a troop construction situation.

In every war and between the wars, you have a drop

in this Army support and as again I say when the

shooting starts and somebody wants a man to out

there and remove the mines or put a bridge across

or blow an obstacle, suddenly it begins to come

190
y , 

py 

However, IAn not too sure he was still there at the

time the final blows came. I think he'd retired

and " Buzz " Wheeler had moved in as Chief of

Staff.118 And he was a much more theoretical

gent than George Decker. But anyhow we went back

over there time and again, and we had opportunities

to present our views to this committee and so on,

and it was clear that their minds were made up. I

didn't know quite what we should do. I knew one

thing, I knew we better do all we could to maintain

contact with the Army. So I told my top people

that. "Look," I said, "anytime we get any kind of

a question or inquiry from the Army, let's give it

the real go when we respond. I'm going to go to

every meeting that I'm invited to. I'm not going

to have an excuse that I had to be on the Hill

working on the civil works program. I'm going to

be available, and if I'm not in town I want my

deputy to be there no matter what. Whether it's a

little insignificant thing or a major thing, let's

show them that we are part of it." We got a few

chances to soften the words a little bit in some of

the findings, not enough to really make much

difference, but I really think what happened to

save us was to a large extent our capabilities.

One capability You wouldn't necessarily think

about. About this time while this is all flowing

along in that direction, there are efforts made to

get all the tech services to join hands and go to

the Hill and all this kind of business. I just

said, "No, the Corps of Engineers is going to take

what the Army decides. We're not going to go

around behind their backs to try and solve it.

We're sorry if it's hurting some of the other tech

services, but we're going to play the game by the

Army's rules." About this time things began to

hotten up out in Vietnam, and there were

requirements for better intelligence and better

analysis. I don't remember how we first got in it,

but at one of the regular meetings of the Chief of"

Staff the point was made that we needed to have a

quick study made of this and where can we get it

done promptly.

191
asked, "You have one of those?" I said, "Yes, we

have one of those." They wanted to know where we

had it, and I told them it was out at the Map

Service. "Why do you have it," they asked. I

said, ‘@We have it for the Chief of Engineers to

have the capability to make recommendations to the

Chief of Staff and [to] support the military plans

of the Army if the opportunity offers.“ So they

said, "Get us one/' We had a recommendation and

backup in about three days, and it hit just right.

About that time the Chief of Staff said, in

essence, tiI want Wilson at all our staf'f meetings

considering Vietnam [that] we are now conducting

because he's got this tool we can use and we need

him." So I suddenly began getting invited to the

senior staff meetings of one kind and another which

we hadn't been doing for a long time.

We kept using the Strategic Studies Group as a key

to unlocking some of these things. And they did a

beautiful job. There was no 'place in the whole

Army, intelligence and all, that had the balanced,

cohesive group pulled together with a capability

like we had. And suddenly I had the opportunity in

the staff meetings to speak up and make

recommendations. I kept recommending that we

promptly send some means over to Vietnam to improve

ports and prepare for receipt and storage of

supplies and equipment, so that if the decision was

reached to go we'd have something to land on and a

place to put our supplies. I'll put it to you this

way I within the next three to six months, we had

rejoined the Army on a pretty high level.

Whether the Chief of Staff made .the change or what,

I don't know. But suddenly when the reorganization

plan came out, we retained a presence. It was a

pretty well-chewed--down presence. We lost most of

our troop operations staffing, we lost direct

control of personnel, but instead we had to operate

through a branch of the Army's personnel

organization that stayed with us in our building,

and we had direct access to them. Basically, it

enabled us to give to the Army the kind of support

that was necessary in getting ready for Vietnam.

192
could monitor troop 

ops ote 

Engineers, nothing like we had had before. We

weren't going to fight the problem, we were just

going to have this unit and keep some airfield

capability. One particularly qualified man was

being tempted to go down to Vicksburg lab and leave

the Chief's office. He'd served in OCE a long time

and had been an outstanding representative of OCE

on various troop planning groups. He knew his way

around airfield construction and things like this.

I talked to him and said, "Look, I can't tell you

not to take that job. I will tell you that I am

going to do my best to continue to hold a presence

in your field if you can stay with U S. It's my

feeling that in a matter of a year or two you will

find that you are far more influential than you are

today or were yesterday." He gambled on me and

stayed*

That's the way we tried to keep our hand in under

the reorganization. We got way down in size, but

we still kept that Strategic Studies Group out at

the Map Service, and we used them frequently. We

still kept just a little bit of capability to go

speak on the tactical side to the Army. Within

another six or eight months that was becoming more

important. And the first thing you know, we began

to rebuild a

intelligence

came along.

Q : What more can

while you were

A :

stronger capability. We rebuilt an

capability as Vietnam requirements

you say about the Vietnam involvement

still Chief?

Well, I can only say that it was developing and as

it got more important, there was a lot more time

devoted to it. We were rebuilding this

capability. I was going to every staff meeting I

was invited to, or my deputy was going. We got

much more involved. I made a couple of trips to

Vietnam. I had my deputy make a couple of trips.

In other words, we were trying to be ready to help

if there was something they wanted. I think it

paid off. I think that's what did it. I don't

know. What did Bill Hall think?

193
much to offer.

A : Well, they probably didn‘t, that's it.

Q : And maybe they didn't present what they had to

offer as effectively as the Corps did.

A : That could bee We got another break I think before

the end of my tour* Earle Wheeler, as I say, was

more of a theoretical man and he moved up the

ladder to joint chiefs, if I remember righ,tly, and

Harold K. Johnson moved in.119 Now Harold K.

Johnson I'd never known. He'd been a prisoner in

World War II, but he was a pretty solid citizen,

levelheaded. I. found with a little educational

.effort on my part I got him around to thinking in

terms of what the Corps could do for the Army and

the benefits we got from doing the civil works

program, the NASA program, and having these outside

jobs that didn't cost the Army anything but a few

spaces. Didn't cost them any money, and it gave

our people a tremendous free education without the

Army putting the money up. I think that after he

took office, at least for the next year-and-a-half

before I retired, we had it back on track. Now, it

was not the same situation it had been before, but

it was not too different.

Q : And a lot better than it might have been..

A: A lot better. During this same era we had one

exciting period when Kennedy got shot. I was

living down at Belvoir. It was on a weekend when

everything broke, and they decided suddenly--I

guess it was probably Friday or Saturday--they

decided they were going to bury him in Arlington.

That really put us in the middle of things. We had

to get over there and locate the grave, work with

the cemetery staff, survey the plot, and recommend

its location. I assigned Major General Jackson

Graham as our personal representative on the group

that was getting everything coordinated under

McNamara's direction.120

give me a report.

Shortly, I asked him to

And he said, "You know they're

talking about putting this grave right in front of

the Lee house." I said, "Oh, brother. Your

mission is to try and get it down over the military

crest?

194
succeeded. We got the grave down. It is a very

lovely spot, just about where the military crest

is, but the crest of the hill itself with the Lee

mansion is far enough away that it can be looked at

as separate. I credit Jack Graham with having

accomplished this action, which I think was a

service to all citizens of the U.S.

Now 'about that same time it developed they wanted

an eternal flame, and guess to whom they turned to

get the eternal flame? They decided on Sunday they

wanted the eternal flame. The funeral was on

Monday. So, suddenly, again a mission arrived to

the Chief of Engineers, this time to produce an

eternal flame by the time of the burial in the

morning. We immediately assigned the mission to

General Cassidy, who had been my deputy and had

replaced me at Fort Belvoir as commanding general.

So he called on his specialist training people to

come up with something. We all got together on the

floor of an Engineer School building with a

concrete floor, where we laid out different things

that might work and tried to figure out what we

could do. We figured we couldn't possibly get in a

permanent gas line that soon. .We'd have to go to

butane gas. We'd have to get several bottles of

butane gas and put them in a bunch of shrubs there

and run a tube underground over to the grave site.

And where could we get the thing that would produce

the flame? Well, we started hunting and we found

people who knew where such things could be. And we

started people clear up in Maryland going to pick

up some of these things and some butane gas tanks.

We designed right on the floor there the concept of

what would be the eternal flame. The school troops

began fabricating it.

The next morning early I went up to Arlington to

see how we were doing, and there they had it. It

was all ready to go. As a matter of fact I tested

it by lighting it because I didn't want it to kdcw

up or cough or something on Mrs. Kennedy. So I was

given the privilege of lighting the first test

run. And it worked. I looked where the grave had

been dug. It was a very nice location. I was very

proud of the fact we had gotten Jack Graham, who

195
along, was on a different angle. I went running to

find the cemetery manager, who said, Vt's all

right. When we put the equipment

lets the coffin down, we'll line it

hole was bigger than the coffin,

problem.

I ended UP doing provost marshal ‘S duty out there,

too, because just as I was standing up there

looking and deciding to go home, here came busloads

of people. And they started tramping all over the

grass and running up to look at the grave. I

started running out and waving them aside and

hollering at them to get off and go around, come

around the road, stay on the roads. Pretty soon an

MP showed up, a major I guess he was, and he said,

"Thank you, sir. You have it started, now I'll

take over.“ And he took over and organized it from

then on. It was a remarkable achievement to get

all that done and it showed up pretty well. That

didn't hurt us with McNamara, I'm sure.

over there that

up right." The

so that was no

Oh incidentally,

pr&umably

the edict that came to me,

from McNamara, transmitting Jacqueline

Kennedy's request, was that this eternal flame

would have colors shifting all the time. I just

told the emissary that came to see me, "That's

fine. I accept the fact that you told me. But I'm

going to tell you now, we're going to have a

one-colored flame. We're not going to make a Coney

Island out of this thing." And so, right or wrong,

we got a one-color flame, and she was very happy

with it. I feel that she didn't know that somebody

had made that suggestion. I didn't go looking for

somebody to cancel it. I just said, "I'll produce

a flame and you'll like it." That didn't hurt U S

at the Defense level.

We also got involved then in hiring the artist that

was to design the tomb and in supervising the

construction. And this was all worked pretty

closely with McNamara's office. He was involved

because he was a Kennedy friend and he was

Secretary of Defense. But again, little things

like that helped ease the pain. And about that

time the Chief of Staff was Harold Johnson, and I

196
Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q :

A :

Q 0

l

A :

point leaving us hanging a little bit over the

precipice but not all the way. And to the best of

my knowledge, while I was there we rebuilt our

position pretty strongly and I think that same

thing applies for some years after that.

How was the Corps' relationship with Congress

during this time? .

It was pretty good. I'll tell you, with the effort

I was making towards being in the military picture,

I carefully allowed and encouraged the director of

civil works to have most of the contact up on the

Hill. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time there.

Who was director of civil works at the time?

Jackson Graham was director of civil works and a

good one. So rather than me running up there and

responding quickly, I figured it would be better

for the director of civil works to do it. It

worked very well as far as I'm concerned. I saw

lots of them at parties and occasions. If there

was some reason to go, I didn't hesitate to go.

Did Congress get involved in the reorganization?

Yes, t o some extent. But I don't know how

thoroughly they supported us. We were just a

little bitty cog in this whole thing. They had a

veto power. They had given authority for the

reorganization. I'm not too sure how effective

they would have been, although I'm sure some of

them would have spoken up and tried to protect us,

particularly in regard to the civil works program.

But again, I tried to avoid stirring them up.

How did you get along with Presidents Kennedy and

Johnson?

Fine with both. Jack Kennedy was personable and

pleasant to be around. Outside of one or two phone

calls, one of which I have already mentioned, my

main contacts were on trips to dam breakings or

dedications or a visit to a major civil works

project, such as a visit to Oake Dam, where he,

Secretary of the Army [Cyrus R.] Vance, and

197
limited social contacts.

President Lyndon Johnson I had known as a senator,

and I had met him occasionally as vice president.

He knew his way around the White House and he knew

our strengths and our problems. When his staff

asked questions or for any assistance, we responded

promptly with what we could do. When they wanted

something that we didn't think we should do, we

politely suggested that this was not for us.

Again, I had fairly frequent contact on

groundbreakings and dedications, and less social

contact. But as far as business, I didn't get

called to the White House by either President very

frequently.

Q l

l Did you still have the phone link with the White

House?

A :

: I don't remember but two or three calls, mostly in

the Kennedy regime. I presume it must have still

been there with Johnson, but I don't remember. I

know that I stood at attention promptly whenever

that phone rang.

Q l

l What were the most important civil works projects

when you were Chief? I know that you stressed the

importance of comprehensive river basin work,

planning, and that you created a deputy director in

civil works for comprehensive river basin planning.

A :

: Well, we got started on the Cross-Florida Barge

Canal. We did get more into the comprehensive

basin planning and, as you say, we did some

reorganization in civil works to give added

strength to that. I think it was necessary and

useful. We had a lot of major basin problems that

had to be worked on and solved. We had a lot of

major projects that were coming up for

authorization. I would say we had about a balanced

civil works load as compared with prior years and

subsequent years. Of course, we had the usual

floods and flood fights.

Q l

l Do you have any recollection of the controversy

surrounding the Kinzua Dam project?

198
It was authorized and funded by the Congress but

since it involved relocation of some Indian towns

and cemeteries, the Indians, the Quakers, and the

Today Show,

cudgels.

then featuring Hugh Downs, took up the

Many federal agencies, including the

Corps of Engineers, did their best to overcome

objections of the Indians and several modifications

in the project were approved in the hope of so

doing. But apparently nothing would satisfy the

Indians but to stop work and leave them alone. Old

treaties by the fledgling U.S. and the Indians

figured in the arguments. And as long as the

Indians weren't satisfied, the Quakers weren‘t

satisfied, and as long as the Quakers weren't

satisfied, Hugh Downs would continue to feature the

project on TV.

We tried to interest Hugh Downs in visiting OCE to

let us show him any documents, or calculations, or

plans that he wanted to check on. But he refused

and insisted that I come and discuss the problems

on Today with him as the moderator. Jackson

Graham, director of civil works, finally went, and

as we had expected, got far less than a fair shake

from the moderator, .

and the Quakers.

who clearly favored the Indians

But about a year later, Hugh Downs consented to

spend a day in OCE. We opened up our files,

answered questions, and convinced him. Before he

left he told civil works that he had been

misinformed and was sorry he had presented an

incorrect picture of the Corps position.

Later that week he spent a few minutes on the Today

Show repeating his statement, but it attracted

little attention. However, the opposition

gradually died out,

in operation.

and the project is complete and

Q : What about disasters during your term, like the

Alaska earthquake, for example?

A : Well, the earthquake in Alaska was quite a change

from the routine.

that should

The normal government agencies

have handled it were

getting cranked up.

pretty slow

I made a couple of trips. I
that the Corps ought to get into it wit

feet. So we volunteered and were directed 

ahead and do it. We collared experts of on

and another and got them up there pretty fa

we gave additional authorities and monies 

Alaska District. Again, it was a joint 

effort. We weren‘t running high, wide

handsome. We had certain basic thin

accomplish which I think were pretty darn well 

That earthquake was really something. The 

with the pretty homes near Anchorage was 

sight. It was amazing. It looked like a l

precut bread, and you just took the pressu

one end. Quite a few of the streets and hom

just gone over the brink. There were a 

engineering decisions that had to be m

Alaska. What was safe to rehabilitate an

wasn't. We participated in that to a 

extent. But it was more

procedures as a sta,ndard

or less

disaster

under th

busin.ess 

certain *her agencies call the shots, and we 

our services. If they take them, we have 

designated authorities and requirements wh

can then carry out.

"Operation Chlorine" was a nerve-w

experience for quite a while.121 A barg

chlorine in it was in a wreck on the Miss

River and sank. Everybody was scared to dea

chlorine was going to escape and trickle up 

the water and spread over the countryside. 

first place, we didn't know where the thin

The Mississippi River is deep in that area--

down just below Vicksburg as I remember it

. 2 Mississippi River Commission and the Vi

. District were involved. I think it w

’ towards the Natchez area.

We got experts and contractors that could w

it. We had to hire contractors clear over in 

to come and bring equipment that could pick 

Everybody was concerned day by day as time we

and the tank was still under water. We loca

fairly promptly and designed a method of pick

200
Operation Chlorine, 1962.

Tank Onto a Barge.

Crane Loading Salvaged Liquid Chlorine

Anchorage, 1964. Residence Destroyed by Earthquake.
ateay ad up the river. We had to evacuate

thousands of people just in the event the thing

blew. Once again, we got through an exercise like

that with everything working. It didn't hurt our

reputation in the region.

We had floods on the Missouri Riverm There is

always the threat of flood someplace. I think our

organization responds pretty promptly. I was

concerned particularly over the fact on the

Mississippi which is the biggest point of danger;

the experienced people, the civilians, I‘m talking

about the nongovernment people, the members of the

levee boards, people like this, the ones who had

experience back in the days when it was touch and

go I a lifesaving operation, were getting old and

retiring and disappearing and dying I and there

wasn't enough coming along.122 The same thing

was to some extent true with our civilian employees

and our military. A flood fight behind a levee is

just a different kind of operation. How you ring

around a little hole with sandbags to raise the

head and keep the hole from expanding. Just lots

of things like that.

I do know that during this period, whenever we had

an opportunity to get into a flood fight, we tried

our best to bring people from other Districts and

Divisions there to work on it and gain experience

so that we could reeducate. We went out of our way

to take some of the levee board people. Pay their

way I take them in an airplane, and take them up and

show them. Let them see what was going on at some

other site, which I believe will pay off. I think

it is something we've got to keep up in the Corps

every five or ten years because that expertise dies

off.

a : And that is one of the major strengths, to have

that expertise available for emergencies?

A : Yes, that's right. But again you have to look to

the levee board, the privately elected or appointed

people,. because they have lots of the

responsibilities. Unless you kind of encourage it

and make it possible easily to do this kind of

business, they are just not going to think about it.

202
A :

Q

l0

A :

Q

‘*

l

hydroelectric power fit into multipurpose projects

and you said that it shouldn‘t become the stepchild

of such projects. Could you comment?

Are you talking about whether we should encourage

or discourage hydropower in the projects or whether

we ought to build projects solely for hydropower,

or what?

How do you feel hydropower fits in? Should it

receive greater consideration in planning

multipurpose projects?

Well, I'll put it real simply* Hydropower is a

particularly useful kind of power because if YOU

Lowe it and it's stored, your water is available

and can be turned on on instant notice. It doesn't

take a warmup time or a break-in time or anything

like that. So the more times You can have

potential power, not that you don't want to use it

regularly, but the more times YOU can have

additional potential power sitting there in the

form of water in an elevation whereit can generate

in a hurry, the easier time the network countrywide

has of accepting -problems and overcoming them. I

personally believe that wherever we can generate

hydropower without it costing us too much money, by

that I mean where the benefits exceed the cost, I

feel that we should try and include it.

Now that runs afoul of some of the environmental

things in that when you build a reservoir you drown

out a lot of land. But if you are going to have a

project anyhow with a reservoir and so on8 I'm

convinced that if you can add the power to it8 it

is a desirable thing. I would hope that you would

normally sell it through existing systems rather

than setting up separate government distribution

things. There are both. I'm not going to say you

shouldn't let the government have it too, because .I

think we should.

organizations and'

But you should use existing

add potential to those in

preference to adding new organizations solely on

the basis of the federal hydro.

What do YOU see in the future?

203
future is that we are running out of economically

developable sites to a large extent. As You

develop these projects, You are using up one

place. What would bother me would be to see you

building something in a location which could be

hydropower without including it so that you lose

that opportunity. It is never going to be the

major power source in this country. But it is

particularly useful when you are trying to run a

network like Alabama Power or Southern Power.

There is a complete lack of problems in cutting it

off or putting it back on. There's no problem,

whereas with a steam plant or some other power

source, You can have difficulty in an instant

shutdown. ~

Q : We haven't said much about the environmental

movement and the increasing demands on the Corps to

reflect a greater awareness of environmental

concerns.

A: Basically, that has blown up since I retired. Now

I did describe what we went through in the St. Paul

District, and in all honesty I still maintain that

the Corps was one of the first environmentally

aware agencies in this country. Like the public

parks, the Corps established a lot of those like

Yellowstone and others and got them started. I

believe that we were already--take the anadromous

fish in the Columbia River basin--we are doing a

tremendous amount of work to prevent damage to fish

life of that area, and we're trying to compensate

for the effects of interference with the salmon

runs. That's been going on for one devil of a long

time.

Now, we were not quite as environmentally aware

back in my day as people of today as a result of

some recent activities. , If You are talking

basically of when I was Chief of Engineers, I don't

think there is much more to say about it. We had

beach erosion thoroughly analyzed but it was a

pretty expensive problem to correct. I was

president of the Beach Erosion Board as deputy

chief.123 I was [chairman] of the [Board of

Engineers for Rivers and Harbors] as the deputy

chief also, and this gave me a chance to know what

was on in civil works to a large extent,

204
appear on the desk every so often. We had a lot of

environmental happenings or influences in the beach

erosion field. We pumped in the beach down here at

Biloxi, which was one. But again, we weren't as

concerned as we might have been of where we put

spoil from dredging,. But as far as the hunters and

the fishermen, I'm pretty sure we were thoroughly

aware of them and their wants and desires. They

didn't have quite as big a clout then as they do

nowe although they had a pretty good size one.

When they wanted to get stirred up on something,

you had to listen.

Q : Given sentiment at the time, do you think more was

expected of the Corps than should have been? The

indication is that you maybe weren't as concerned

about some things as you should have been, but --

A l0 But we were a lot more concerned than most

everybody else. That's what I'm saying. What I've

seen standing on the sidelines--and I've been

involved in it here in the Mobile area since I

retired- there was some good that came out of the

increased emphasis on environmental protection.

However, I'm not sure Yet that they have

accomplished as much as it cost the country in

terms of rules, &nd changes, and prohibitions

against certain things that are going on in the

name of the environment. But again, the awareness

was a desirable thing. It's true with the Corps as

well as with everybody else. I would say that the

military in the Corps have accepted the requirement

more promptly than some of the oldtime civilians,

although by and large the Corps has, in my opinion,

responded almost too well. It's now almost

impossible to accomplish anything.

Q : Do YOU mean because of the impact statement

requirements?

A: Oh, not just the impact statements, the whole

thing. We've got some local channels here that

have been in the "just before start of

construction" era now for over 10 or 12 years.

When you're just about ready to go, somebody else

raises their head. And it just takes one or two

standing on a street corner and hollering and

205
waiting for a court to act, which may or may not be

a good idea. But that's long after my retirement.

I'm on the other side there.

Q : And how do you react from that vantage point?

A : I think they've gone too far. The pendulum swung,

and it's time to swing back a little bit.

One of the interesting projects during my tour that

I'd like to mention was the expansion of the

military academy. I had some fixed ideas on the

subject but that wasn't the main point. The main

point was they had to be done. The military

academy had a planning board and came up with

concepts, and we assigned the mission to the North

Atlantic Division and the New York District. To be

sure we got off on the right track, I personally

went up there several times and met with the

planning board and the superintendent. There were

many I many studies of ways to get traffic around

the main parade area, the plain, but the goal

really was to pretty near double the size without

changing the basic appearance of the military

academy. I'm convinced that the results today show

that we really succeeded.

We had an architect-engineer: we had the District

and the Division: we had the Chief's office: we had

the Pentagon, and the board up there, everybody

involved. But basically what we did was build

additional barracks outside the line of those that

were already there, to about the same height the

current barracks were, but with lower ceilings so

that we got five floors where there had been four.

We changed the design. Instead of having a

stairwell going all the way up to the fourth floor

and serving just four rooms on each floor, as had

been traditional forever, instead of vertical

living, we went to horizontql living. This saved

space, and also with the fifth floor, we actually

got in essence twice as many people living with the

same per-person criteria that we'd had before

without really materially changing it.

Now when they got the barracks finished on the

outside of the old quadrangle, then they took down

206
g 

They

came to me to ask if as Chief of Engineers I had

any objection to leaving the first division of

central barracks. And I said, "Do you happen to

know where I lived my four years at the military

academy? I lived four years in that first

division, so you have a strong supporter in saving

the first division." The mess hall was the key to

the thing. The way we solved that one was to build

a mirror image of the original one, which had been

back into the Rocky Hill, a mirror image of it out

towards the plain. You look at a picture of it and

you won't notice any difference, really, it's right

between the two barracks. You've got twice the

number of seats, the same poop deck or whatever you

want to call it, where the officer in charge and

the officer of the guard sit. You could look both

ways up there. They did a beautiful job. And by

moving the barracks out to meet it, it doesn't look

like there has been any real change.

The major problem, that beautiful chapel with a

gorgeous organ, couldn't stand explosives too close

to it. You couldn't dig the rock out without

endangering that. But we ended up with what looks

just about the same. Now there were other

features, hospitals and things like that, but a lot

of effort went into the design, the layout and

co.ncept. Several academic buildings were done at

.this time or later, after I retired. The main

living features were what we got going on strong

while I was Chief. These other things went along

later. There was a new cadet activity building, a

new hospital, a new academic building, and a new

library. The new library came while I was Chief

and nearly caused me a divorce because my wife

found out about it and asked how we could tear down

the beautiful old one. We've got four times the

library in the same square-foot space, and now you

go up there and don't think anything about it at

all. Itas on the same location and utilizes more

efficient design and everything. It's a darn good

library building.

Incidentally, I was responsible for letting them

get their stacks in. We had a problem of money, as

usual, but I realized that if they didn't put their

stacks in on all the floorspace they were going to

207
be a terrific job of moving everything when they

added additional stacks. so I found a way of

getting a little more money to buy stacks on some

of the between-floor floors that they added up

there. So they could go ahead and plan to put the

volumes in and put them in in the general areas

they were going to have them stay right from the

beginning. That made the librarian and the

superintendent and a lot of people real happy.

That was a personal decision on my part which 1

don't regret. It's a good deal.

It was a very interesting project. It's hard to do

it with the cadets there and not interfere with

them. But it was expensive; expensive to a large

extent because of the location. There had been

congressional investigations galore into the

subject, and basically it's the labor union

principles and agreements and wages and rates,

travel time allowed from New York, all based on New

York costs transposed up there. This caused a lot

of trouble, and it almost killed the project. It

got worse after I retired, and Congress questioned

the veracity of the reports being given. After I

retired I became a member of the consulting board

appointed by the superintendent and the Secretary

of the Army, really, to look into it and report to

the Congress what the costs should be and why it

was this way and that everything was being done to

hold them down that could be and that we ought to

continue to go or not continue to go. I served on

that board for close to three years. I made at

least nine visits. They canceled #the board along 

about September or October of '73, figuring that

the job was done- it had started in September of

1970. It had some high-level architects and

engineers and academic types. M.P. O‘Brien out at

the University of California was a member of the

board: General Johnson, the former Chief of Staff

of the Army, was a member of the board. It was a

pretty well-qualified board, and it was a pleasure

to serve on it. I was delighted to see it clear

the air, and I think we did some good in

reestablishing a little confidence in the

estimates. That came after I had retired.

Q : Could you comment on your part in getting the Corps

involved in postal construction after you retired

as Chief?

208
General Wilson (r.) with his successor as Chief of Engineers,

Lieutenant General William F. Cassidy.
retired to do so

etg 

p

informally, in that when Red Blount of Blount

Construction Company in Montgomery was designated,

as the Postmaster General, to try and improve the

efficiency of the Post Office Department and to

have a big construction program under the

Postmaster General, he asked me to come up and see

him and offered me a

2

position on his staff to

handle the construction.1 4

Q : Does your association with Blount go back many

years?

A 0l Oh off and on

DiLtrict in the

and as Chief,

since I was down here in the Mobile

fifties. And later as deputy chief

and, on one occasion as deputy, I

the phone, it was on the missile

4

called him on

business, and said, '@I don't want to see another

bid from you until you've caught up with what

you're doing. You're overextended." He protested

a little bit at the time, but not very seriouslyAlmost a year went by, and I checked and checked

again. And finally I called him and said, “Okay,

we think you've caught up with your britches now.

I'll withdraw my informal request." He could have

bucked me on that very easily, and I'd have had a

hard time legally keeping it up. But anyhow, I had

known him pretty well and he did do good work. His

problem wai he got overextended.

I had guessed what

gone by the Chief

with Bill Cassidy

deputy I and asked

Corps of Engineers

Office Department

he was going to ask me, so I had

of Engineers' office and talked

and Fred Clarke, who was then the

if they wanted me to suggest the

0 I told them I thought the Post

would be a whole lot better off

picking up an organization like the Corps to give

them help than to pick up a gent, one man who'd

have to build a staff and go through all the throes

of that. They said it was all right with them if I

wanted to suggest it to Red.

So I talked with Red for about an hour or so, and I

said, "Red8 I appreciate the confidence and I think

it would be a fine idea, but I don't think it would

be in your best interest. I think you'd do far

better by hiring the Corps of Engineers_ just like

NASA did. You've worked under them, You know

210
ppyg y 

by me comtng and trying to build up." And he said,

"I don't -want it. I'd rather have you, but I'll

talk about it with my people." I said, "Okay, I'll

tell the Chief of Engineers that You may be

asking." He said, "Fine, you may do that." So

very shortly thereafter, he got together with the

Chief of Engineers and they activated the plan, and

I believe that everybody has been satisfied that it

was a good program, although I have no real

knowledge of what happened to the program;

I had retained the home I had built when I was

District Engineer and hoped to get an offer of a

job in the Mobile area after I retired so I could

come back and live out my days here. So I hadn't

'sold the house. We had rented it very

successfully. We had 13 years of rental and only

nine months' total vacancy during that period of

time, and people generally kept pretty good care of

it. The mortgage had been paid off, and the

renters had upped the rent voluntarily to get me to

add air-conditioning. So we had an air-conditioned

house, paid for.

About the time it was known that I was going to

have to retire, I got an offer from one of the

companies in Mobile that I respected to come work

with them, so I accepted. I went to Denmark and

Sweden to the PIANC [Permanent International

Association of Navigation Congresses] meeting in

July 1965 and returned the first of August to go to

work for Southern Industries Corporation. I joined

them as a vice president and within less than a

year was elected a director. Southern Industries

is a small conglomerate with wholly owned

subsidiaries and a variety of activities. Through

its operating subsidiaries it produces and markets

aggregates for the construction and chemical

industry, including shell, sand, gravel, slag, and

stone, ready-mixed concrete in a couple.of cities,

asphaltic concrete in several, and concrete block,

chemical and agricultural lime, poultry feed

supplement, all of this primarily based on oyster

shell, 5,000- or lO,OOO-year-old dead reef oyster

shell, which they dredge. By means of permits in

the areas in which they are doing the shell

211
y pg gy

do I with anywhere from four to six subsidiary

companies from time to time. It has been a very

interesting job.

I deliberately told them when I came that I didn't

want the pay they offered because I thought it was

too much, I didn't mean to work that hard, which

surprised them. But we made an agreement where I

got deferred payments to some extent after I

retired. I couldn't retire, because I'd ruin their

retirement system, but I get deferred payments for

about ten years after I gave up the directorship.

I told them I didn't want to end up as president, I

didn't want to be the big shot. I'd had enough of

thaL It took about a year to convince the young

people working around through the company that I

really meant it, and after that my life was very

pleasant. I'd get called on for all kinds of

problems8 interesting problems where I could help

them without taking over the responsibility other

than that of a vice president and director in

general terms. It was very fine. I gave them a

little management study in the organization and

made some suggestions, none of which they bought,

but a year later all of which had been put into

effect. I helped establish age 65 as a retirement

age8 and very soon I hit age 65, so I had to retire

as vice president.

I stayed on as director and then they asked if I

wouldn't change that to the status of a consultant

SO I could stay with them and do certain things

with them, particularly keeping up with the various

water organizations they belonged to, like the

Water Resources Congress, the National Waterway

Conference, the Warrior-Tombigbee Association, the

Gulf Intercoastal Association, and American

Waterway Operators. All of these things I had been

participating in representing them and this saved

them a certain amount of effort in the field, and I

enjoyed it. They pay my expenses to go to these

things and also those of my wife because I'm

getting too old to travel on my own. It's a very

pleasant situation. I do do them some good. I

work pretty hard every now and then for a little

while, but in the consultant field, no. I do just

212
go to; although every now and then they

ll say,

"Here's something coming up we wish you'd

participate in? So I have got a small retainer

and I have a desk, filing cabinet, and access to a

Xerox, and that's the extent of my activities at

their office. It works very well. By now, we're

down to where I go maybe two or three times a week

for one or two hours at most unless it's something

special.

Now in addition, we had a thing called Task Force

200 here in Mobile, which was the industrial

development part of the Mobile Area Chamber of

Commerce. It was a fairly big effort. Southern

Industries more or less volunteered me to be their

representative on this thing. It ended up with me

being chairman of Task Force 200 starting about

1966, about a year after I had joined Southern

Industries. I devoted a lot of time to that

because also at that same time they announced that

Brookley Field was going to close and the

government was moving out, and I helped get the

community to accept the fact that it was going to

happenN to' quit fighting it and to try to find out

ways to get control of it and develop it and make

use of it. It was a very interesting field and I

got to meet the industries that were considering

moving to Mobile. I really think I did some good.

I stayed in that job until mid-1972, by which time

I figured I had done my share of that and let

somebody else have a chance at it. This really

occupied my time. I devoted an awful lot of time

to that for those years but no longer is that a

demand on my time except occasionally. I still

take part in the South Alabama Regional Planning

Ccmmission, to which I'm a consultant, not a paid

consultant, I'm just a member of a citizen policy

group. But a lot of these things I got into as a

result of being the chairman of Task Force 200.

Also when I came down here I got agreement from the

president and management of Southern Industries

that I could be an outside consultant if I wanted

to 0 It would be up to me to try and keep from

reducing my usefulness to the company, but we could

work out the arrangement necessary so I could take

on work. As a consultant, as I mentioned earlier,

213
to their forecasting and flood-fighting plans for

that particular year. That was extremely

interesting. It took me back into the Red River of

the North valley and let me renew knowledge of

people and things that were going on.

In March of '67 I served as chairman of an

arbitration board between the Idaho Power Company

and Morrison-Knudsen and Perini on the Hell's

Canyon project construction claims. This was more

in line with the kinds of things I had done in the

Corps. It was very interesting. It took a week.

We ended up with a solution. There were three of

us and we ended up without ever taking a vote. We

talked ourselves into concurring on each step as we

went along, and as chairman I just wouldn't let

them quit talking until we got a sense of

agreement, and then we'd move on to the next

subject. I think both the Idaho Power and the

Morrison-Knudsen-Perini people were satisfied with

the results.

In April of 1967 I headed the team of three people

to review the construction programs, procedures,

and performances in Vietnam as an advisor to the

Secretary of Defense. This was known as the three

little bears wandering around Vietnam. We had

Major General Gus Minton, who had been the head of

the Air Force engineers, and Commodore Barney

Hunter, who had been a fairly high member of the

Navy construction agency, the Bureau of Yards and

Docks.125 We three went over there and stayed

about three weeks. We saw a good deal. We got

there shortly after Bert Perkins had moved in as

the head of the M-K contract, which was a cost- ccstplus-fixed-fee contract. I had advised him of the

kinds of things he was going to run into in a

cost-plus-fixed-fee atmosphere. Before he left I

spent a whole day in Los Angeles talking to him at

his office there letting him ask me any kind of

questions he wanted. I was giving him the

advantages of the experiences we had had in dealing

with his outfit in Morocco and telling him the

things to avoid and the things to look out for and

so on.

214
existed there. They had oversupplies of some

items, too many people ord-ering-no control of that

really, everybody was ordering. The material was

coming in and they didn't have room to store it.

I'm not talking about just the contract, I‘m

talking about the situation in Vietnam. We got

into it pretty thoroughly. We went around the

whole country. We visited a great number of

commands and logistical facilities. We worked very

hard in drawing up our report back in Saigon. Dan

Raymond was the head of the construction program

for the military at that stage, a corps of

Engineers general, and we brought his people in

with. us when we sat down and finalized our

report.126 We got agreement pretty much on the

recommendations and guidance that we gave and the

places where we pointed to danger signs. Then we

took off and went back to the Pentagon and reported

to the Secretary of Defense with Air Force and Army

participation.

Again, I believe we accomplished what they

wanted- an attempt to convince Congress that you

had some people with experience looking and not

letting things run off. I think it was timed

beautifully, because had we not done it, I think

some of the things that were going on and were

building up could have turned out to be more

trouble. There's one little item. They had enough

toilet facilities over there .to last about a

hundred years! Everybody had ordered. Anyhow8

that was one interesting job.

I got asked to be an expert on flood-fighting and

also a consultant on the construction of the

Northern Power Plant Builders, which consisted of

Northern Construction Company, a division of

Morrison-Knudsen, on the Portage Mountain

Powerhouse in British Columbia, a tremendous, big,

underground powerhouse. My function was first to

look at the cofferdam protection in a flood fight

that was going on right then8 June of '67,

acceleration claims in connection with that flood

fight, in connection with the work on the tunnel.

I testified in the supreme court of British

Columbia in reference to these and a $50-million

claim case. I was up there in May-June of '67,

215
The court case turned out pretty much the way 1

recommended to Northern Power Plant Builders.

they were entitled to and how to go about it.

least from their viewpoint, they thought this

very successful consulting.

I mentioned earlier that I was a member of the

United States Military Academy Planning Board

appointed by the Secretary of the Army. I advised

on planning, design, funding, and construction for

the expansion. And that was nine visits to

Washington or West Point over a three-year period.

.had

What

At

was

I was appointed by the director of the Alabama

'Highway Department to a board to advise him on

claims submitted on construction of a federal

highway project on I-10, a tunnel under the Mobile

River. This was to recommend to him what

construction claims submitted had merit and what we

thought ought to be paid and what we thought ought

to be turned down. Again, it was a three-man

advisory board. I was the chairman and we did it

the same way we had done it out in Idaho. We took

longer this time. We worked on it almost daily for

about a month and came up with answers which the

highway department accepted and apparently also the

construction contractor accepted. During this

period I was honored by being awarded the Golden

Beaver Award for engineering in 1971. It is a

construction organization basically drawn from the

West, and it was nice to receive the honor.

Recently I haven? been looking for assignments. I

had an opportunity less than a month ago to take on

one, an arbitration that would involve one of the

former Dutch colonies. It would be an

international arbitration, with rules set up by the

international chamber of commerce. The Indonesian

government would be a party. To me it looked like

it was going to take several years and a.

considerable amount of effort. It wasn't going to

be a chance to really use my experience of the

past. I was going to have to sit down and do a lot

of engineering analysis and so on. So I said I

appreciated it, and I knew it would have been nice

money coming in but "Thank you, no. I'm not going

to do it unless I'm the only man in the U.S. who is

suitable for the job." That more or less typifies

my current situation.

216
there are things I hear which would be of interest

to them, and I try and get word to them. I try and

encourage them to be involved with the Society of

American Military Engineers. ’ Up until recently my

wife and I have been participating in many

retirement parties in the Mobile District for

civilian personnel and goodbye parties for the

military, but it's getting now to where there's

nobody left alive walking around the Mobile

District that I really knew. I play golf nearly

every day with two of my former employees, one of

whom is the one who was the only man in the Mobile

District junior to me in 192% He was then a

messenger and he retired as chief of the contract

and procurement branch recently. The other one was

the chief of the operations division, who knew my

wife back up in Tuscaloosa where she was born

before she ever met me. Basically now, I'm the

yard man at 69 Kings Way, keeping up three-quarters

of an acre, which is a time consumer. I meet with

the Medicare crowd, normally around nine on weekday

mornings, and walk pulling a cart for 9 holes, and

get it over with before lunch so we can accomplish

other things during the rest of the day. And on

Saturdays I normally play 18 holes- pulling a cart

except in the hottest part of the summer. As I

said, I go to the Southern Industries office up to

three times a week and I keep in touch with things

that way, distribute the material that comes from

these various associations to the right places in

’ the company8 answer questions, do a little bit of

calling, that pretty well covers it. Of course, I

travel. I have a harder time ordering my day and

scheduling myself and getting things accomplished

today than I did when I was working hard. Well,

that's just about it as far as I‘m concerned. I

expect to stay here until they haul me out in a box.

Q : How secure do you think the Corps of Engineers is

today in 1978? Is it facing another situation like

the one in 1962?

A : There's an erosion that probably will continue

forever, but I'm confident that the Corps will

bounce back and continue going strong. I can't

guarantee that. Sure there's a problem. It's

217
situation is less risky today than it was a year

ago at this time. I've got no way of knowing, I

just know what I read in the papers. I hope the

Corps continues to do the job and continues to earn

a good reputation and provide a real service and

then I think it will continue to roll.

Q : Do You have any suggestions for the Corps'

historical program, for things that might be

emphasized?

A : I don't know, that's kind of hard. You know there

have been innumerable occasions in the past when

the Corps has been attacked and I have participated

in several of them. Each time it seemed to me that

we had to go back to scratch to try and dig up the

kind of information that's necessary to combat

things like this. Whether your historical

department could in the course of this kind of

action put together a child's guide of rebuttals to

raise, I don't know.

Q : Actually there has been an attempt to do just that.

A : Good8 because I can remember the days when I was in

the position of doing it without telling anybody

and trying to keep us from sticking our heads up as

opponents to everything, but at the same time

finding the arguments. There were some beautiful

things written by the World War II commanders that

show the advantage of the Corps having the civil

works program as well as military construction, the

advantages we have over any other engineering

organization and any military organization in _the

world as a result. But whether somebody can go put

their finger on it now, I have no idea. I know

there have been two or three starts in that

direction since I retired. You can't necessarily

go out and manufacture this at the moment when you

need it. You need to be able to put your hands on

it.

Do you have any other questions you would like to

ask?

Q : Well, I suppose we could touch briefly on one last

subject, the Corps' work with the Agency for

International Development [AID].

218
a little hard to keep them separated. It was kind

of an up-and-down action, I mean they'd be in a

little trouble so they'd ask for help and then as

soon as they got their feet under them they'd want

to freeze us back out of it to a large extent.

Quite a little bit of work overseas was done with

AID funds.

Q : What were some of the more outstanding examples?

A al Well, one was the terminal building at Dhahran for

the Saudis. There was work in Afghanistan on a

highway, a tremendous project, which I got to visit

on one occasion. I can't tell you offhand but

there must have been hundreds more. But again, you

couldn't plan on it very much for the long term

because as AID people changed assignments they

became more interested in doing their own work and

less interested in letting the Corps move in.

Q a

0 Thank you very much for your time. It has been a

most -enjoyable and informative interview.

219
Operations in Burma. December 1, 1944 to May 17, 1945.
ARTICLES AND SPEECHES

"Logistical Support of British Operation in Burma in

the Winter of 1944-1945," by Brigadier General Walter

K Wilson, Jr.,

Asia Command

Deputy Engineer in Chief, Southeast

In the summer of 1944, Lord Louis Mountbatten and his

Southeast Asia Command staff was faced with a

logistical problem. The operational situation was as

follows: Burma was still in the hands of the Japs. In

the north, Chinese-American forces under General

Stilwell were fighting for Myitkyina, the outpost of

civilization in Burma in the north. In the northeast,

British-Indian troops of the 14th Army were clearing

the remnants of an audacious Jap offensive from the

fringe of India and the northeast corner of Burma.

The mission assigned required the reconquest of Burma.

The normal approach to Burma is from the south, through

Rangoon

from Rangoon.

All communications in Burma extend

Railroad lines run from Rangoon to the

north up through the center of Burma to Mandalay and

Myitkyina with a side line off toward China to Lashio.

The mainriver communication also extends from Rangoon,

utilizing the Irrawaddy up to Mandalay and Myitkyina.

However, since means of amphibious operation to retake

Burma from the south were not available, Southeast Asia

Command was forced to plan the conquest from the north.

Entering Burma from the north, the railroad lines could

be reached at Myitkyina and Mandalay, but railroad

lines without rolling stock are of little value. Early

in the campaign, the principal rivers in Burma could be

reached; the Chindwin at Kalewa and the Irrawaddy at

Myitkyina, but again without powered craft these rivers

furnished an unsatisfactory line of communications.

Before the war, no roads connected Burma with India.

American forces under General Stilwell were hacking the

Ledo Road across mountains and through the jungles to

Myitkyina, but by the summer of 1944, this road was

still several hundred miles short of Myitkyina. On the

west, British engineers had earlier improved the road

from Manipur Road to Imphal and had then built an

extension across the mountains to Tamu. But Tamu is

over 300 miles from Mandalay and nothing but tracks

connected the two.

221
oCacutta, suppes were moved by rail over a

broad-gauge line for over 200 miles and then

transferred to a narrow gauge for another movement of

388 miles to reach Manipur Road, including transferacross the Brahmaputra by a rail ferry. The U.S.

supplies followed this same route, but continued past

Manipur Road. to Tinsukia and the Ledo area. In

addition, the small port of Chittagong was connected by

a narrow-gauge rail with Manipur Road, a distance of

over 350 miles. Major base facilities at Calcutta were

ready to handle the load, and at Manipur Road the

advance base was in being. Forward from Manipur Road,

an all-weather macadam road was in good shape to

Imphal Jap demolitions and monsoon damage had to be

repaired between Imphal and Tamu. From Tamu forward, a

fair-weather track ran to Kalewa. East of the Chindwin

River lay a broad jungle-filled plain, traversed only

by little-used tracks and a narrow fair-weather road to

Mandalay. From Mandalay, the main road net of Burma

leads to the south. Thus, in effect, the base area was

prepared, even though supply was inflexible due to the

distances and transshipments required. But forward of

the base an almost virgin country must be crossed by an

army of two corps to reach the central plain of Burma.

And even then, once Mandalay was seized, the army would

still be 400 miles from its goal at Rangoon.

Aside from the war against the Jap must be considered

the war against the weather. In Burma, May to November

is the season of rains or monsoons. While these

torrential rains do not prevent operations, they break

down all communication lines, making fair-weather roads

impassable, interrupting all-weather roads for varying

periods, and generally forcing operations to proceed at

a walk. Thus, the operation must jump off in full

force in December and reach its goal in Rangoon in

early May in order to insure defeating the second

enemy, the weather. . . .

The logistical solution presented can be summed up in a

few words. Use every means available to beat the

monsoon. The successful efforts by the American forces

to supply Chinese and American troops of the Northern

Combat Area Command have been so well covered by other

articles that I will cover only the logistical support

of the British 14th Army. One of the principal

requirements was POL (gasoline and its allied

products).

222
repaired to all

weather c

asscatoacoss the

mountain region. One hundred miles of new all-weather

road were built from Tamu to Kalewa. Because of the

time element, lack of a sufficiently large number of

dump trucks, and lack of good stone sources, this road

was surfaced with PBS. PBS, directly translated, means

prefabricated bituminized surfacing, or, as we would

be more apt to know it, heavy burlap thoroughly

impregnated with bitumen, brought up in rolls and laid

on the prepared subgrade. This was definitely in the

nature of an experiment, but it had to work, and be

ready by the next wet season. In the meantime, traffic

used the old dry-weather trail. Because there were not

enough engineers to do this job and also bring the

Kalewa-Mandalay road up to specifications, supplies

forward of Kilewa would move by the Chindwin River down

to the junction of the Irrawaddy to Myingyan. Only

tactical vehicles belonging to divisions used the

existing fair-weather road from Kalewa forward. To

implement this river supply scheme, it was necessary to

get floating equipment to Kalewa. The lines of

communications would not handle the large tonnages of

craft in addition to the essential tonnages to supply

the army, so impromptu boat yards were set up at Kalewa

and hundreds of various types of barges and boats were

built. Engines and special fittings were brought down

the long railroad and road lines of communications to

complete the job, and even a few sectional tugs made

the long journey. In addition to new craft built,

every type of local craft available was pressed int

service. POL was moved forward by making up large rafts

of drums, fastening them together with a bamboo floor,

and towing them down the river. Rafts for dry storing

were constructed from .light materials obtainable

locally, principally bamboo, and floated one-way to

Myingyan.

All of this would have been to no avail without the

magnificent effort of the RAF and USAAF on air supply.

It can be safely said that the Burma campaign was an

air supply war. Divisions would advance fifty to a

hundred miles, forward engineers would know about an

air-strip, and the C-47's and 46's would land, thereby

increasing the efficiency of payload over that possible

by air dropping. Thus in effect, the supply was by a

series of hops forward to one transport strip after

another with the interval covered by air dropping. The

flexibility furnished by this air supply enable

operations to outflank the Japs which would have been

223
central plain, locomotives were brought forward by road

and river, and some were even flown in by air.

. . . statistics [show] what was involved in this

tremendous logistical task, but they cannot give the

true measure of the hardships and difficulties

involved. The operation was a success because the

fighting troops were willing to get along without

supplies normally considered essential;. because when an

emergency arose, air supply was able to deliver the

goods on time; because thousands of troops and labor

working on the often crude and elongated lines of

communications kept tonnages rolling forward through

every difficulty.

This solution to a difficult logistical problem is not

one which others will try to follow in the future, but

it is a prime example of the advantages of control of

the air, of adequate air supply, and of combined

efforts by every practical means to deliver sufficient

supplies to the right place in time to support tactical

operations. Both the British and American troops who

participated can be proud of a task well done.

Reprinted with permission from Military Review

25 (March 1946):12-17.

224











A Speech Before the Arkansas Basin Development Association Little ‘Rock, December 11, 1961

To begin my remarks by saying anything but “thank you"

would be most unappreciative of the welcome you have

given me. I know that some of you have come long

distances to be here tonight. Your presence reflects the

interest and drive behind the development of the Arkansas

River Valley.

Soon after I became Chief of Engineers, somebody asked me

if I was familiar with the Arkansas Basin Project. I

replied that I was quite aware of it. It's like my golf

handicap. It's big, its important, and I get reminded of

it regularly. Some of you in this room see to that.

At the risk of having your chamber of commerce bill me

for membership dues, I must remark that the future of the

Arkansas Valley is exceedingly bright. With our country entering a period of phenomenal growth, it seems logical

that this valley is an ideal place for economic expansion

o f all kinds. It is rich in resources, abundant in

economic opportunity, and is well on its way with river

basin development to support the kind of life we cherish

in this country.

With 1970 as the date for expedited completion of the

Arkansas Basin Project, a challenging pace has been set

for this development. To help make this possible you

have mobilized two human qualities essential to real

progress of any basin. These are vision and vigor of the

kind that built this nation. Hold on to them, and your

Valley will blossom as few others have done.

One of the best descriptions of the vision that foresaw

the possibilities of developing the Arkansas is a book

published not long ago titled LAND, WOOD AND WATER> I

believe the author comes from the Oklahoma part of the

Valley, but it is good reading in Arkansas, or anywhere

else where people want to move ahead. That book tells of

the long struggle to convince the doubters and the

apathetic - though it is hard for me to realize there

were ever any of them down here - that something could be

done to make the vision a reality. Bulldog persistence and the united drive triggered by the disastrous 1943

flood which paved the way for authorization of the

multiple purpose plan for the valley are all a part of

the story.

236
be mentioned. For they reflect the enthusiasm and the

faith you hold for the future of your valley, and your

Willingness to put out the effort and investment to

realize its destiny. This is vitally important to our

ability to speed construction of the engineering works to

conserve the waters of the Arkansas River system and put

them to beneficial use.

That the multiple purpose plan is moving fast is only 

partly evident when you fly over the valley. For you do

not see the extensive planning and other hard work that

had to be done before the first earth could be moved.

But a few routine facts will serve to measure progress.

The more than $80 million appropriation this year will

bring the bank stabilization and channel rectification

work to about 40 percent completion. It will advance

Dardanelle Dam to about 30 percent completion. Oologah

is almost finished. Keystone and Eufaula will be well

over half complete - where complex relocation problems

have been solved and for which the State of Oklahoma

deserves great credit for its cooperation on highway

betterment.

Last year recognition was won for bank stabilization as

an integral part of the over-all plan - not just an

emergency patchwork where the river was doing the 

greatest damage. This year a vital step was taken with

the appropriation of initial design funds for navigation

locks and dams.

In step with the timetable for completion of the Arkansas

River Waterway are the terminal and transfer facilities

being planned along the route.

Little Rock, In the State of Arkansas,

Pine Bluff, Van Buren and Gillett have

created port authorities, and other communities are

making plans to do so. In Oklahoma, Muskogee has

organized its Port Commission and Tulsa is moving on such

a project now, as are other cities.

This is foresight. This is drive. There will be great

opportunities in the areas close to the waterway, but its

effects will not end there. It will be felt hundreds of

miles away. The commerce that will move to market by

water transportation will not come from the

immediate area, just

river bank. nor will the incoming goods stop at the

When the first towboat whistles are heard, as sections of

the waterway are opened to commerce, there is evidence

237
gotten it

firing up

with great

Not only the Arkansas, but the White and the Ouachita

basins are headed for better things because of their

navigation possibilities. Barge service has been

reopened on the Lower White River recently, where channel

maintenance has been resumed. Further improvement of the

channel on the Ouachita has been authorized. These

neighboring developments will be complementary to the

economic rise of this great section of the United States.

and that new plants and business houses will be

their production lines and opening their doors

frequency.

Once your Arkansas waterway is opened, you will become a

part of an extensive industrial complex served by barge

transportation throughout the Greater Mississippi Valley,

which is growing by leaps and bounds. Your interests, of

course, will be served by the health and vigor of the

entire system. One of the significant trends in waterway

development is recognition by the respective areas along

them that the bigger the whole pie becomes the more each

particular community will have to enjoy. In the united

effort of all concerned we gain great strength to push

forward vigorously with waterway improvement in all areas.

Great as our progress with waterway development is, we

have seen only the beginning of the significance of barge

transportation to national advancement. It is

interesting to note that we have recently found the

waterways to be essential even to the Race for Space.

The National Aeronautics and Space Agency, in asking the

Corps of Engineers to build their new facilities for

developing, testing and launching Space Rockets have

emphasized the necessity of locating these facilities on

the waterways. For the huge rockets exploring Space will

be much too large for practicable and economical

transportation by any other means than barge. Linking

the various research, production, testing and launching

facilities together by waterways will enable the huge

boosters to be moved from point to point as required.

Much has been said about the effects of water

transportation, and about other benefits that will flow

from the development of the Arkansas. However, I want to

emphasize the importance of making full use of

recreational opportunities. These, of course, occur on

the reservoirs, and are inherent in the slack water pools between the locks and dams. You can visualize a

continuous water surface 450 miles long - a fabulous

238
holds for recreational use by large numbers of people.

Andt I might add, for the economic benefit of those who

invest in facilities and services to enable the broad

enjoyment of this valuable resource.

I am mindful of the accomplishments already in being and

am confident you are not overlooking further progress of this kind. Certainly, the Corps of Engineers desires to

work as closely as we can with respect to the

recreational and fish and wildlife aspects of river

development, as well as in other fields of activity.

I want to stress, too, the importance of looking ahead

with investigations of future projects to be authorized

and built along our way towards the ultimate full use of

the waters of this basin. We have many surveys in various stages of progress for new or improved

developments in Arkansas, Oklahoma and Kansas. We must

push along with them, in addition to the construction of

works now under way, or authorized. For they, too, are

essential to your future. ,

,

Time will not permit me to discuss them here, but I do

want to point out one of special significance - the study

for possible control of salt pollution of the Arkansas

and Red Rivers. The Public Health Service, as you are

aware, has done an outstanding l

job in locating the

sources of contamination. Now we need to ascertain the

best methods of control and what they will cost. The

control of salt contamination would provide water quality

in Keystone reservoir and in the Arkansas acceptable to

Public Health Service standards for domestic use, and

acceptable for industrial and agricultural purposes. A

feasible way to do it must be found.

We have a double objective on the Arkansas. One is to

plan and build towards the full, comprehensive

utilization of your water resources. The other is to use

such development as a means of supporting President

Kennedy's desire to accelerate the national economic

growth rate.

The reasons are compelling. As the President stated in

his Natural Resources Message to the Congress last

February, wise investments in resources development

programs today will return vast dividends tomorrow;

whereas opportunities to carry out such developments may

be lost forever if we fail to act now.

239
both recently stressed the need to expand and expedite

water resources development.

I am confident that the growth potential of this country

can absorb the best efforts all of us can make to these

ends. It requires that we apply these efforts wisely and

unremittingly to achieve the dynamic progress of which we

are capable.

It has become necessary that the planning and

construction of projects and systems of projects be

comprehensive in scope, extremely far-sighted in depth,

and a cooperative undertaking among all groups and

organizations concerned, public and private. The

perspective of all persons engaged must be broadened,

procedures sharpened and efforts intensified.

The Corps of Engineers approaches its part in these tasks

with keen interest and confidence, and a sense of

opportunity. We are reshaping our efforts along lines

that will enhance its responsiveness to current and long

range needs. One of the steps I have taken is to direct

that water resources development be employed as an

effective tool to stimulate economic growth. Another is

to take into account the full, realistic life of water

resources structures in determining their justification;

and not to stop at an arbitary 50-year life.

We are seeking new ways to bring all project values into

focus when they are significant to the need and the

justification of a development plan. Some values are

difficult to measure in cold dollars and cents but

nevertheless they must be taken into account if we are to

make the best use of opportunities to stimulate economic

advancement.

I want to stress that it is my intention that the work of

the Corps of Engineers be as responsive to your needs and

aspirations as men can make it, both in your own interest

and to the benefit of the entire country. For the

progress of water resources development in your Valley is

a matter of major national importance.

In closing, I want to stress that it is extremely

gratifying to work with you towards the fullest

realization of the great potentials of the Arkansas River

Basin, and your ambitions to capitalize upon them.

I thank you.

240
A Speech Before the National Rivers and Harbors Congress

Washington, D.C., May 18, 1962

You have dealt generously in giving me this opportunity

to talk about water-resources development and national

defense. It is a happy occasion when a man gets a chance

to expound in public *on his favorite subject. National

defense has been my career since entering the U.S. i.

*

1 Military Academy and water resources have occupied a : large share of my time since entering the Corps of

Engineers upon graduation.

One soon learns, in the Corps, that water development and

defense are two sides of the same coin. The nation's

military strength is inseparable from its economic

strength; its economic strength in turn depends upon the

wise use of natural resources; and among natural

resources, the conservation and control of water are

absolutely basic.

Thus broadening and acceleration of water development of

all kinds becomes a matter of primary national

importance, which President Kennedy has stressed twice in

his Messages to the Congress during the past two years.

What this country needs now, and needs badly, is fuller

realization of the great scope and size of the

water-resources development task confronting it, and an

absorbing dedication to an all-out generation-long, water

development effort.

How big is this task? I am going to cite some figures,

derived in part from studies inspired by our work with

the Senate Select Committee on National Water Resources a

couple of years ago. I shall put them forward very

tentatively, because of looking far ahead as we have to do in planning large-scale construction programs--the

estimates of needs must necessarily be very rough.

Resources for the Future, Inc., made a monumental study

for the Select Committee which indicates the magnitude of

the reservoir storage capacity we shall need just to keep

the rivers flowing adequately to meet all demands for

water.

by

The Corps of Engineers has completed the picture taking into account a nationwide

additional needs. inventory of The outstanding conclusion reached by combining the results of the two studies is that by

1980 - only 18 years from now - the nation will need to

241
the capacity of all the reservoirs the Corps of Engineers

has built in the past - mainly in the last two decades.

And it somewhat exceeds the aggregate capacity of all

reservoirs that have been built in the United States

since its beginning.

And this is only the basic part of the job - necessary to

provide the high degree of conservation of water and

control of streamflow to assure dependable supply for

such requirements as domestic and industrial use and to

maintain satisfactory stream conditions generally. Add

to it the navigation improvements, local flood protection

works, hydro-electric power, recreation and other related

tasks of comprehensive development and the over-all

undertaking looms quite large.

When we in the Corps of Engineers try to size up our

projected part of the task we find ourselves

contemplating programs in the next two decades ranging

from $1-1/2 billion to $2-1/2 billion a year for new

construction alone.

Figures like these are startling. But when we look

realistically at our national future, the scale of the

projected development to meet water needs falls into

proportion. The United States faces a big future--big in

every aspect--big in strength, big in accomplishments,

and therefore big in its needs.

To meet these needs, as we see them now, would require a

Corps program growing at a rate of about 6 percent each

year. Ass a national goal is an annual growth rate of at

least 4.5 percent for the Gross National Product, and as

attainment of this goal depends upon prior development of

basic natural resources, a growth rate of at least 6

percent in developmental programs appears entirely

reasonable. Moreover, we have some catching up to do in

the developmerit of water resources.

We have made an analysis of how the demands projected by

various authorities for the Senate Select Committee

would, in all probability, affect those parts of the

over-all water resources responsibility to which the

Corps of Engineers' efforts are normally directed. Our

concern has been to ascertain where we have to raise our

sights, how we need to sharpen our procedures, and in

general, line our work so as to make headway towards

helping meet future requirements.

242
early action in an effort to avoid them.

Beginning with the reservoirs, let me pass along to you

some of the facts our analysis revealed. The Senate

Select Committee's report indicated that a total of well

over 300 million acre feet r reservoir storage space

would be needed by 1980. This storage was projected just

for regulation of the nation's rivers to increase low

water flows for purposes such as water supply, water

quality control, power, navigation, recreation and the

like. Additional storage reserves for flood control,

most of which would be combined in the same reservoirs

with water supply, would also be needed, making the total

requirement about 400 million acre feet of reservoir

capacity.

Our estimates indicate that the Corps of Engineers should

be prepared to build about 3/4 the total

requirement, storage

$15 billion,

and that the cost would be something like

figured at 1960 dollars.

Now where is the space to store this water effectively

and economically to come from? In many respects, this is

going to be a harder problem to solve than that of

expanding the capability to build the reservoirs, or

finding the money to pay for them. I think we will have

the construction capacity, all right, but we will have to

find many more able planning engineers to carry out

programs of the magnitude indicated. I don't want to

minimize the money - but if we've got to have the water,

the question boils down to the hard fact that we've got

to get it, through reservoir construction, and do it at

the cheapest cost we can. But as to land on which to

store the water, that is something else again. In some

of our river basins, such as the Ohio, for example, the

amount of feasible reservoir space which can be acquired

without major disruption of existing development such as

communities, highways, industries, railroads and the

like, is nowhere near adequate.

every day. This is And it is getting less

one of the aspects of the water

resources

pinch of job where the country is going to feel the

the lack of enough highly capable and

experienced planning engineers who can help us store the

most water for the least sacrifice of either land or

money.

Even when all these problems are solved--money, planning,

capability, space and efficiency-- we still will face the

243
are to be carried out within only 18 years, we must start

working on them much faster and quite soon.

To meet Federal flood control responsibilities properly,

the multi-purpose reservoir program should be

supplemented by about 11,000 miles of levees, floodwalls,

channel improvements,

billion. Also,

and related works costing about $2

costing

about $80

some 3,000 flood-plain studies,

million, should be undertaken to encourage local regulation in effort to minimize the flood risk and

reduce the cost of building protection for property that

should not be located in the flood plain.

Meanwhile, the augmented reservoir program would make

feasible the installation by 1980 of about 33 million

kilowatts of new power-generating capacity, costing over

$5 billion.

Any forecasts must recognize the phenomenal increase in

the public demand for water-based recreation. In 1961

the attendance at Corps of Engineers reservoirs alone

totalled about 120 million. Fifteen years earlier it had

only been about 5 million. In view of this growing

demand, and in anticipation that new reservoirs will

continue to be built and will be better adapted for

recreation than older ones, an estimated 300 million

attendance by 1980 is conservative.

We believe that the state and local entities should be

encouraged to develop the recreational potentialities of

Federal reservoirs to the greatest possible extent.

However, the Federal Government can and should acquire

land for recreational development at reservoir areas and

should also provide such basic facilities as access

roads, picnic grounds,

and the like.

boat-launching ramps, sanitation

We contemplate that perhaps $700 million

might be spent for

1980.

such purposes at Corps projects by

The national inland-waterway system embraces some 20,000

miles of improved channels in commercial use. We have

estimated that 10,000 miles of these channels need

improvement, and about 1,000 miles of new waterways merit

serious consideration for possible future development.

The total cost of this possible future work would be

about $8 billion. The urgency with which this additional

construction should be carried out depends upon factors

which are difficult to predict. In addition to possible

244
transportation. At present we can only assume that needs

will develop at about the same rate in the future as in

the past. On this basis we should anticipate investing

about $2.7 billon in the improvement of construction of

waterways by 1980.

Also, construction of 14 new deep-draft harbors on the

seacoasts and the Great Lakes, and improvement of 46

existing harbors are expected to become justified over

the next two decades. The estimated cost of this work is

about $2 billion.

The Atlantic coastal storms early this March have

emphasized the need for expanded programs to protect

against loss of life and property and destruction of

beaches along the national shoreline. Without taking

into account changes that may occur in Federal

legislation and policy, we feel reasonably sure that we

will be called on to undertake more shore protection,

including hurricane protection projects, than has been

contemplated before this year. A very rough

order-of-magnitude estimate might be in the neighborhood

of $1 billion by 1980.

To get the big, overall, comprehensive water resources

development job done on time and economically, we shall

have to accelerate river basin planning and project

surveys. Increased emphasis is being placed on this

'activity in my own office. And, as a first step in

avoiding a bottleneck, special river basin planning units

have been established in each of our Divisions. These

units will carry on continuing studies of reservoir needs

and potentialities for each river basin similar to those

prepared for the Senate Select Committee. These studies

will help provide the detailed data needed to further

refine the estimates of needs set forth by the

Committee. They will also help the Corps of Engineers

develop more dependable time-tables for providing

additional storage capacity, will help locate reservoir

sites, and will determine the river flows needed at key

points along the main rivers.

We expect our basin-study units to help us cooperate

effectively with other river-basin planning agencies such

as those recommended by President Kennedy. Pending

completion of comprehensive basin plans, they will help

us to make sure that our proposed projects will fit well

245
esouce eeds.

Let me repeat that our estimates are necessarily based

largely on meeting those requirements for which the Corps

of Engineers has primary responsibility. But I might point out that many different water-resource programs

tend to converge on those of the Corps, particularly with

respect to basic stream flow regulation. our basin-study assignments, from the late 1920% to date; the nationwide

scope of our programs, and our involvement not only on

rivers but on lakes and seacoasts; the many contacts we

have established at community level all over the United

States through both our military and our civil missions--

all these bring us into contact with the nation's

over-all water-resource needs and problems. And I hope

that by telling you candidly how big the job ahead

appears to us, it may help organizations such as the

National Rivers and Harbors Congress to gear up their own

efforts to help get the water resources job done well and

on time.

What we are dealing with involves the total future

welfare to our nation. Water-resources development must

be undertaken not merely because it is profitable, or so

that we may live more comfortably. It must be undertaken

to preserve our national economy, our security, and our

way of life. It is one of the foundation-stones of

national defense and of our country's future greatness.

No task is more urgent. It is a challenge to us all.

246
Portland, Oregon, October 18, 1962

During the 17 months I have been Chief of

Engineers, I have seen most of the United States and

much of the rest of the globe while inspecting Corps of

Engineers operations at home and overseas. On these

trips, I have seen much evidence of the series of

chain-reaction "explosions" in population growth,

technical progress, discontent, and change which are

reshaping the world we live in.

From these observations, I have come to appreciate even

more the need to push ahead faster with water

development to help accelerate the economy right now,

as well as to meet the demands of national growth.

While the idea of using water development to help

generate economic drive is novel in some parts of the

country, it is an old story here in the West. However,

it is taking on new dimensions even here. Today, all

parts of the country are being caught up in a movement

towards full, comprehensive development of water

resources undertaken cooperatively by federal, state,

and local interests. In fact, this movement is

emerging as the distinctive and dominant conservation 

idea of our time. It reflects considerable change in

our nationaal concept of the importance of water

conservation, the size o f the water resources

development task, and how best to tackle it.

Take reservoirs, alone. It is expected that about 400

million acre-feet of new storage will be needed less

than two decades from now, just to regulate the

country's rivers to increase low flows for water supply

of all kinds, for water quality control, power,

navigation, recreation, and the like. That is an

enormous amount of storage; more than all our country

has built heretofore; and much of it will be required

here in the west.

We estimate the portion of this increased capacity that

would normally be built as Corps undertakings would

amount to something like $15 billion, at 1960 dollars.

That portion of it to be built in the West would

provide more water for

irrigated economy, and power expanding your

in addition to other benefits. Some

of this increased storage already has been placed in

construction since the figures were compiled, and

247
structures in such a way as to make maximum

contributions to the reclamation program wherever this

can be done.

Of course, the reservoirs are just a part of the

comprehensive development task, though a key part.

When we try to size up the job projected by forecasts

of national demands, including water supply, flood

control, navigation, power, and other purposes, we find

ourselves contemplating Corps programs in the next two

decades ranging from $1-1/2 to $2-1/2 billion a year

for new construction alone.

Both the size and the complexity of the task ahead put

a premium on ingenuity and efficiency in both planning

and construction.

In planning, we must find a way to place more emphasis

on long-range needs, without slighting current

requirements. We shall have to build for current

needs, as we plan for long-range needs. This is always

difficult for if planning is not projected far enough

ahead, you run the risk that what is built today may

block something needed later on.

By and large, I think the western states have fared

well with planning and building water developments.

Here future development is largely a matter of making

use of relatively unimpaired natural advantages.

Conservation in the East is often a matter of finding

remedies for problems.

One of the significant trends in water development is

the growing participation by the states and their

subdivisions in the formulation of comprehensive riverbasin plans and in construction. Such participation is

essential to good development and should be encouraged.

The federal agencies, too, are taking a broader

interest in certain aspects of water development, such

as recreation, water supply, and water-quality control.

Federal assistance can be of outstanding value in

helping the states and local agencies expand their

activities in these fields. This kind of cooperation

is essential if water resources are to be developed and

put to use in a way that will best encourage economic

growth.

Another recent change in the water resources scene is

one for which this association is entitled to

considerable credit. I refer to the new standards for

248
confident you are familiar with these changes, I don't

need to describe them to you. But I would like to

point out that the new standards must be applied with

prudence and foresight. i evaluating hard-to-measure

benefits, we Don't want to be hidebound by formulas,

but we do want to be sound. And in estimating the

productive life of project facilities, we don't want to

be myopic, but we do want to be realistic. In the

future as in the past, the American people must be able

to rely with confidence on the quality of the

investment proposals offered them. In a sense,

therefore, the more liberal standards mean that we must

take greater pains than ever in projecting needs and

benefits into the future.

The bigger our plans, the more facts we need to prepare

and support them. Thus, we need a much more intensive

fact-gathering and fact-analyzing effort, supported by

new techniques for handling and using data, to get the

most out of comprehensive basin planning.

When we deal with all the water resources of a major

river basin, we may often be confronted by a huge

complexity of possible alternative patterns of

development. Accommodating important, even vital,

interests may depend on choosing the right pattern and

phasing it in the right time-sequences of work and

investment. Modern methods of systems analysis,

involving the use of electronic computers, can help us

compare alternatives and solve problems on a scale that

otherwise would be impossible. So we are thinking of

applying such techniques to our water resource

assignment. In cooperation with Harvard University, we

are carrying out a three-year program aimed at

exploring such possibilities. It is possible that they

could transform the field of water resource planning.

Still another need is to gather not only masses of

facts but a full range of viewpoints concerning

resource problems. Actually, interests and viewpoints

are facts--facts that help define the social, economic,

and political environment in which development will

take place. Plans, programs, and projects must be

soundly fitted to their human as well as their

geographic environments. In dealing with viewpoints, as

with any other kinds of facts, the problem is not so

much to collect them, as to determine their impact on

the end product of resource development. No

significant view or interest should be omitted, and

none can be permitted to predominate unduly, if we

expect our plans to provide a sound foundation for

future growth.

249
not only with keeping abreast of changing water needs,

but also with keeping in touch with as wide a range of

groups and interests as they can. This is an exacting

task, made more difficult by the chronic shortage of

trained, experienced planners. Nevertheless, we should

make every effort to have comprehensive surveys

completed or underway in every major river basin in the

United States by the end of this decade. Moreover,

these basin plans must be kept flexible and up-to-date

through continuous fact-gathering programs carried out

in cooperation with the widest range of interests

possible.

While a great deal more might be said about planning, I

want to leave time for a few words about construction.

Our national capability to build efficiently and

economically will be one of the yardsticks that will

measure not only how well we can live, but also how

safely we can live on this crowded and disputed earth.

The cheaper and more efficiently we can build, the

greater the use we can make of our water resources. I

am confident of our national ability to- increase

construction efficiency. At the same time, effort

should be placed on generating new ideas, and on

developing new methods, new materials, new standards of

efficient management and techniques for

increased construction

achieving

efficiency, plus

that

an approach

reasonably

insurmountable.

recognizes few barriers as

For example, the Corps of Engineers is now considering

the possibility of linking waterway navigation systems

in separate river

channels through

basins together by cutting open

the land masses that divide

watersheds. This involves a massive carving up of the

earth's surface on a scale that has not been previously

attempted.

To facilitate such undertakings, we are now working

with the Atomic Energy Commission to explore the

possibility of using the might force of nuclear energy

in an effort to cut the costs of excavation. Needless

to say, our approach to this idea must be made with

great care,

safeguards.

and each step surrounded with multiple

At this early date, we cannot even

speculate on the outcome of such research, or how its

fruits might subsequently be applied to the various

aspects of water development, but if the potentiality

is there, and there is a way to harness it, no pains

should be spared to find out.

250
any of a score of other important construction jobs, a

much better, bigger country can be built. Research to

such ends should be encouraged and supported as a

highly important element of water development.

As we progress with water development, it is of course

necessary to integrate new construction into going

programs in an orderly way. The Rivers and Harbors Act

of 1962, recently passed by the Congress, will be most

helpful. Among the other developments, it authorizes

for construction, it provides 31 new multiple-purpose

reservoirs for the Western states, aggregating over 11

million acre-feet in storage capacity. Among these are

dams such as North Fork on the San Gabriel in Texas,

Camelsback in Arizona, New Melones in California, Lost

Creek here in Oregon, Wynoochee in Washington, Bruces

Eddy in Idaho, Clinton in Kansas, and Kaw in Oklahoma,

to name a few.

Further, the new Appropriations Act provides for

stepping up the Civil Works program by some 7 percent,

including funds aggregating $365 million for the 17

Western Reclamation States. It provides funds for 21

new construction starts and 23 new planning starts on

various kinds of projects in these states, including

construction money for seven of the new multi-purpose

reservoirs embracing storage for various needs.

Also, we look forward to further opportunities to

expand development of small water resources projects of

various kinds under the new Public Works Acceleration

Act. These include flood control projects costing not

over $1 million in federal funds, and small navigation

projects not to exceed $200,000, which I am empowered

by law to authorize for construction. Further, we have

a number of small projects already authorized by the

Congress which may be taken up on short order. Also,

recreation facilities may be provided under this act,

and we may accelerate, improve, or rehabilitate

existing projects.

I would like to add one more thought in closing. We of

the Corps of Engineers look to you of Reclamation to

help us realize the full measure of benefit from our

western programs. On the Missouri, the Columbia, in

Texas, in California, and in many other regions and

river basins, we have undertakings which are already

serving considerably, but which can serve even more to

251
this way--more opportunities in which together we may

achieve greater benefits from our endeavors.

I thank you.

252
Construction Contracts

Washington, D.C., November 6, 1962

Professor Nash, Mr. Keiser, distinguished guests and

participants in this conference on Government

Construction Contracts. George Washington University%

National Law Center and Federal Publications, Inc., are

to be commended for sponsoring this symposium devoted to

a study of mutual problems affecting construction

contractors and Federal contracting agencies.

As all of us know, the Federal Government is the

country's largest purchaser of construction

services--buying many billion dollars worth annually. If

for no other reason, the extremely large cost to the

taxpayers, alone demands that all of us in the Federal

construction agencies make certain that the American

people receive the highest quality work for the lowest

possible price, and on time.

Construction, one of the most complex and vital areas of

Federal activity, will become even more complex in the

age of space. Our jobs will include some of the most

demanding ever tackled. In the aggregate, they will be

the costliest since the World War II construction task.

They will include some of the most difficult, technically, since the Manhattan District produced the

original "A-bomb". New techniques, new materials, new conditions of many kinds will be involved and the job

will have to be done under the pressure of American

growth requirements, national defense, and "The Race For

Space2

All three elements directly concerned - the Government,

the construction industry and American labor, face the

necessity of thoroughly reviewing and revitalizing our

ground rules. All of us must look far ahead to

anticipate problems and come up with effective answers

when they are needed - not after setbacks are

experienced: preventive foresight - not corrective

hindsight:

Let us enumerate some of the major areas of expanded

Government construction.

First, is the newest program to support Space Exploration. While the program can be visualized now only

253
Next is the Civil Defense Shelter Program - this nation

may be facing a program which could eventually involve

many billions of dollars of construction, partly financed

by the Federal Government, but largely financed by the

private sector of our economy. In executing the current National Fallout Shelter Survey Program under direction

of DOD, which, of course must precede any large scale

construction of new shelter, I think it significant to mention that the Corps of Engineers has teamed up with

the Bureau of Yards and Docks so that this effort from

the beginning will be a joint Army-Navy effort.

Then, we must catch up with the backlog of water

resources, highways and other communication needs - in

themselves

size.

"headline jobs" of unprecedented scope and

Defense construction will in all probability continue to

be extremely large - with prospects for new elements such

as antimissile missile construction to be considered.

After that comes the country's more ordinary construction

jobs, which I need not enumerate here.

Thus both survival and progress will be measured by what

we build. The volume and type of Government construction

reflect areas of national importance which demand the

earnest attention of architects, engineers and

contractors and more than a score of Federal agencies.

Let's take a look now at some of the construction

implications of

achievement space. Early in 1946, our principal

in probing space was reported in page-one

headlines which told how the Army Signal Corps had

bounced a radar impulse to the moon and back. The United

States has come a long way in the past 15 years. TO the

point, in fact, where President Kennedy has now called

for an all-out national effort to land men on the moon

and return them safely before 1970. We now stand on the

threshold of manned-space explorations the way Spain did

over 450 years ago when men began to claim that the earth

was round and Columbus set out to prove it. But that's

where any similarity stops.

Before our Space-Age Columbuses can take off many

theories will have to be put to the test here on earth.

Along with the scientific advancement of space flight

254
, 

p, p

for space vehicles, their boosters and guidance systems.

Thus, the first leg of the journey to the moon will be

right here on the ground, and we of the construction game

have to accelerate our efforts before science can set out

to overcome the pull of gravity.

I would like to point out here that while the space age

has brought with it demands for more specialized

construction, Federal agencies have not lessened their

efforts in seeking improved methods for carrying out more

conventional building programs. Our sister agencies,

many represented here at this two-day conference, are

working closely with engineers and contractors in

attempting to apply new solutions to old problems which

touch every phase of construction engineering--from

small, single-family homes, to the giant multi-purpose

water resources development projects. While I may call

upon my own personal experiences and those of the Army

Engineers, I am certain the thoughts and comments I

express here today are equally applicable to the

engineering and construction efforts of the GSA, Bureau

of Yards and Docks, NASA, Air Force Civil Engineers,

Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Public Roads, AEC and VA.

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)

has recently asked the Corps of Engineers to expand its

support of the space program by performing major

engineering and construction for new space projects,

including the manned space flight projects.

Working under this arrangement, and with design criteria

furnished by NASA, the Corps of Engineers will supervise

the architect-engineer contracts for design and the prim

contracts for the building of these projects. We have

already worked in this field by providing engineering an

construction support to NASA and its predecessor

organization on several jobs.

While many details on this program are still lacking, we

do know that the first Saturn rocket was successfully

launched at Cape Canaveral, Florida week before last and

that preparations are well underway for additional Satur

and other large boosters to be launched from that

facility. In order to prepare for these shots, 73,000

additional acres will be developed at the cape, including

many new launch complexes. We are currently engaged in

acquiring the real estate for these projects which will

255
approximately $60 million.

Plans call for these launch sites to be widely dispersed

and far from habitation for safety reasons and becaus

the boosters will be the largest ever developed and the

noise generated by them will be earsplitting.

Simultaneous with the construction of these new launc

facilities a completely new Manned Spacecraft Center will

be built at Houston, Texas, for the design and testing of

space vehicles and their crews. In conjunction with

these activities, powerful liquid and solid fuel rockets

for the Saturn and Nova projects will be tested at other

facilities yet to be constructed in Southern Mississippi

and Louisiana. These new centralized test facilities and

support items are currently estimated to cost some $300

million and will include the intricate control centers,

and the static and dynamic test stands necessary for the

captive firing of boosters and second-stage rockets.

In accordance with the announcement by NASA last month,

the U.S. Army Engineer District in Mobile is taking

action to acquire or obtain easements an 141,000 acres in

Southern Mississippi and Louisiana with access to the

Pearl River.

It is important to the space construction program tha

these facilities be built on sites located on or close to

our navigable inland and intracoastal waterways. NASA

wants to place new facilities on the waterway because

many of the future boosters will be too heavy to ship by

air and too large for existing railway and highway

bridges. Earlier this year, the first Saturn booster was

transported from Huntsville, Alabama, to Cape Canaveral

via barge. Thus we see that the space age where speed is

measured in 10's of thousands of miles per hour is firmly

attached to speeds of 4 mph on our waterways.

Our engineering and construction industry is ready for the space job. Working together, the Corps and industry have had considerable experience designing and building

research and test facilities at the White Sands Proving

Ground in New Mexico; fabrication and test facilities for

both the Army Ordnance Missile command and the Marshal

Space Flight Center at Huntsville, Alabama; as well as

launch pads and service towers at both Gape Canaveral and

Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. And just as

they did in building for production of the first "A-bomb"

256
under the Manhattan District, construction contractors

have proved themselves highly competent to take on

revolutionary new tasks and execute them fast and

effectively. Within a relatively short learning time the

industry has seeped into the billion-dollar ICBM base

programs and has acquitted itself well in the handling of

a pioneer job of an exotic nature. In these new

assignments the industry has taken the lead in developing

techniques and methods for working with new concepts and

material.

The compressed time frame of the new space program, as

well as the new and highly technical requirements, demand

the highest sense of responsibility on the part of all

interests concerned. The Corps will necessarily have to

be discriminating and extremely strict in qualifying

bidders, in the inspection and acceptance of work, and in

other matters of contract administration. Contractors

and labor will have to establish their own volition,

standards of responsibility for quality and speed

work. All of us must look ahead - to devise

techniques, equipment, skills and materials that will

required.

new

of

the

be

In support of improved construction techniques

materials for highly specialized work such as this,

Corps of Engineers is carrying on basic research within

and

the

its own laboratories and by contracts with top research

and engineering organizations. We are constantly probing

as far as we possibly can into materials, the design of

facilities and structures, equipment and construction

problems.

The current work in building ICBM bases for the Air Force

will contribute much to the industry's capability to

carry out space age construction efficiently and

economically. The ICBM Construction Office at Los

Angeles, under operational control of the Air Force

Ballistic Systems Command, CEBMCO, was given one job to

do -- build the

economically and fast.

 missile bases and do it well,

The Office of the Chief of Engineers, down through the

Divisions and District offices, as well as all other

appropriate units, are continuing to give required

support to CEBMCO and the ICBM construction effort.

The same support is now being marshalled with the Corps

to give the stepped-up space construction program of NASA

its needed boost.

257
Architect-engineers and contractors will have to shoulder

heavy responsibilities for the speed with which the tota

space program moves forward, because much of the initial

efforts will depend on the construction of basic research

and test facilities.

The . industry has a tremendous opportunity and should

start preparing its internal organization to expedite the

work put in place. General contractors must, early in

each job, set up machinery with their sub-contractors to

work out anticipated problems. I urge all prime contractors to agree on procedures with their contracting

officers ahead of time so that when they come to them

with substantial changes in a facility's design, resulting from modifications in the space hardware

itself, construction can go forward without a break.

One of the advantages of such an approach will be to

provide both the Government Contracting Officer and the

contractor with an opportunity to work out their

differences in the field

arises - at the place where the problem

and at a time when the facts are readily

obtainable and positions have not yet become solidified

Talking problems out at this level should most certainly

reduce the number of claims that will have to be fought

through a time-consuming process of the Appeals Board and

the courts, and work to the mutual advantage of everyone.

Another important area where improvements can be made is

in the field of labor relations. Jurisdictional disputes

make up one of the more sensitive areas of labor

relations and much can be done to improve past records.

Space construction will present many union jurisdictional

questions involving installation of new and highly

complex equipment, new construction concepts, and other

matters. Let's look ahead on these potential trouble

spots and cure as many of them in advance as we can so

interruptions of work can be avoided. With both labor

and industry eager for us to win the space race, it's

primarily a question of foresight and good management on

both sides to keep out of misunderstandings and trouble.

In' the past on certain types of NASA construction, our

District Engineers have found it necessary to prequalify

contractors and subcontractors bidding on the work. This

practice will doubtless be continued as necessary - with

the approval of my office and NASA. Prequalification

258
I 3.8

. *!

..I

The criteria for prequalification of contractors

include: experience, past work performance, equipment

and facilities, integrity, contract administrative

ability, and availability with respect to existing

workloads.

From the overall point of view, prequalification will

assure that the NASA construction program will be carried

out by the lowest qualified bidders, to the benefit of

all concerned--the construction industry, the using

agency and the public.

The construction industry has a unique role in space

construction and its capabilities must keep pace with the

ever changing requirements of the design engineers. At

times even before the general contractor completes the

basic construction, it is necessary for the hardware

manufacturer to begin installing highly technical

instrumentation equipment. At this point in the past,

disputes have sometimes arisen and the work stopped. We

must see to it that there are no such shutdowns and that

the work schedule proceeds in an orderly manner, and

without a break. The construction contractor must

prepare for and effectively handle the transition from

construction to operation equipment installation by

others.

The general contractor can be expected to play an increasingly important role in Space Age construction.

In fact, heavy construction calls for a type of

on-the-job ingenuity in meeting whatever conditions the

Vagaries of nature or man may present which are not usually encountered in the more closely controlled

environment and work conditions of

production line. the laboratory or

The day-to-day competition between construction

contractors breeds a type of resourcefulness that is of

great value in getting a job such as Space Age construction done.

We know that when the time comes to bid, individual

contractors will come forth and pit their firms and

reputations against all comers. When the work is

especially large or complex, joint ventures will be

formed giving the Federal Government a combination of

specialists, who are masters of their own particular

259
exploration present the most difficult assortment of

problems, I have dwelled at length upon them. I do not

want to minimize, however, the continuing problems that

all Federal construction agencies must meet in defense

construction, in water resources development, or in other

fields I mentioned earlier.

I am sure that the heads of all the other Federal

construction agencies represented here today will agree

with me that we and the construction industry must find a

way to get the most for the dollar. The demand on the

limited number of taxpayers dollars for the many vital

programs will be great. The public, their

representatives in the Congress and in the Executive

Branch will look longer and keener at each dollar - to

get full worth from it. The scope and objectives of these programs must be kept realistic, and I think they

will be. The construction industry and agencies such as

the Corps of Engineers which employ them will be in the

constant spotlight of public scrutiny.

The forbidding conditions and the unknowns we face are

only challenges to be met, just as we do when soil

conditions encountered in digging an ICBM silo differ

from what the test borings showed, or when the geologists

fail to find a thin fault in the foundations of a dam, or

we have to build defense bases on snow, ice or permafrost

in the remote Arctic. There have been. periods when the

obstacles seemed overwhelming, but as long as the

engineer and the builder and their workmen take the

initiative to find the ways to do their jobs, whatever

they are, and acquaint themselves with the problems of

their fellow men, they will continue to keep their

independent place among the leaders who contribute to the

security and development of our way of life. b.

This, then is the challenge that confronts us, whether

constructing ICBM bases,

carrying space flight test facilities, or out basic research that will let man safely

explore the moon and the planets beyond. I am confident

that the construction industry will do its job well.

260
I have been looking forward to this chance to speak to

you. It has been two years since I addressed the

Engineer Instructors -- and a lot has happened since then.

When I last spoke to you, we in OCE were still i n the

throes of reorganization. At that time, we forecast that

the impact would scarcely be felt in the field. Most of

the changes would be in my office.

And so it was.

We lost the direct operational responsibility for

training, doctrine, Research and Development, personnel

management and Engineer Supply. We retained the

functions of Topographic Mapping, Military Construction,

Civil Works and Real Estate.

OCE's relationships with the Department of Defense remain

about as they were. As the Engineer advisor to the Chief

of Staff of the Army, I have an official hunting license

which allows me access to those activities which we now

monitor instead of controlling directly. We consult,

advise and do anything else necessary to improve the

Corps' combat readiness.

The Corps remains a full-fledged combat arm. OCE's major

military efforts now emphasize formulation of policy,

planning and conducting an aggressive monitorship of all

matters related to military engineering. TO carry out

this monitorship we have our Directorate of Topography

and Military Engineering which keeps in close touch with

the DA staff, unified and specified commands, Army

Commands, schools, field armies, MAAGs and Missions --

wherever there are Engineer activities.

General Hayes, who runs T&ME, has the Directorate

organized into three major divisions: Mapping and

Geodesy, Topographic Sciences and Military Engineering.

The first two divisions look after our extensive mapping

and geodesy missions including the activities of AMS,

GIMRADA, the 64th and 30th Topo Battalions, the SECOR

satellite program and other systems which enhance these

fields. As you know, we have mapping activities going on

in over 50 countries.

261
pp

changes in troop organization,

doctrine; and it maintains close

CONARC, 11th Air Assault Division

activities where our monitorship

posture.

Another interesting activity in T&ME is the Engineer

Strategic Studies Group -- a very active outfit which

plays a vital role in the creation of many high level

Army staff studies. Some of its work has to do with the

planning for a type Corps Force for use in Asia; PAMUSA,

the role of the Army in post attack Mobilization; CDC's

"Oregon Trail" study of Tactical Nuclear warfare; and

other studies of equal strategic importance. This Group

has entry into all the high level places. It shapes a

great deal of the strategic thinking in all fields of

endeavor of the Department of the Army. And, of equal

importance to you and me, is that the work of this Group

insures that in these high level studies Engineer planning is not being overlooked.

training and engineer liaison with STRICOM,

and other agencies or

will aid our defense

All of the people of T&ME -- indeed, all of us in OCE -- are ready to go anywhere or do anything to improve the

combat effectiveness of the Corps. Along this line -- I

look to you gentlemen to keep our brother services

informed of our great interest in our combat functions,

and our developments in them. I hope you will keep well

informed yourself. T&ME operates quite informally; feel

free to visit, phone or write for any assistance that may

be useful to you.

In the nearly three years I have been Chief, I have

travelled over 300,000 miles and visited scores of

Engineer organizations, projects and exercises. You

might be interested in some of my observations.

Aside from being a combat arm, we are the largest

construction agency, real estate operator, and mapping

organization in the world. We are also the Nation’s

largest developer in the field of water resources.

Our Civil Works program in the fiscal year just ended

reached about $1.2 billion. We expect it to increase for

a while at the rate of about five to six percent per year.

Our annual real estate expenditures are about $160

million for the acquisition, disposal and management of

262
clients. To illustrate a typical real estate operation -- Exercise DESERT STRIKE, last spring, required our

negotiation of some 4,500 separate permits for lands in

three states involving about 12,500,000 acres.

Our design and construction support for NASA's Manned

Lunar Landing program is another of our large and

challenging activities. During the last fiscal year, we

placed more than $300 million worth of construction for

NASA in locations such as the spaceport at Cape Kennedy,

the Manned Spacecraft Center at Houston, the Mississippi

Test Facility and other NASA installations throughout the

country.

We continue to study problems associated with

construction of a base on the moon. We have just

published a 1:5 million scale map of the visible side of

the moon and hope, ultimately, to enlarge this scale to

1:25,000 for more detailed use by our lunar explorers.

Our Civic Action program is a booming one. Almost every

nation in South America and dozens of others throughout

the Free World enjoy some sort of Civic Action program

and we help the DA staff and field agencies to shape them

up.

Paralleling Civic Action somewhat is the overseas

construction our Districts and Divisions accomplish upon

various requests by the Agency of International

Development. We've built airports for Iran and Pakistan,

an air terminal for Saudi Arabia, a highway for

Afghanistan and are working on other major construction

for these and other countries.

A.I.D. frequently calls upon us also for studies,

surveys, designs and services. In this

activity,

consulting

we have dozens of engineers in the field

working with countries such as Egypt, the Congo, India,

Jordan, Australia, Greece and scores of others.

Many benefits accrue to these nations under both the

A.I.D. and Civic Action Programs. They become more self-sufficient economically and militarily, as we leave

behind us improved public works, trained manpower and a

developing awareness of technology.

Benefits also accrue to us through the promotion of

international friendship, increased foreign trade and the

enhancement of our national prestige.

263
Engineers.

My wanderings have also brought me in contact with our

problems in providing engineer troop support for the Air

Force. Our support requirements for Tactical Air

Commands under CINC MEAFSA are going to be heavy. I am

pleased to report that we and the Air Force are getting

along well together in our mutual effort to improve our

capabilities in this potentially vital role.

I was down at Benning a few weeks ago to visit the 11th

Air Assault Division. Things are going well there and

I'm looking forward to seeing our 127th Engineer

Battalion in action during the Division's field tests

coming up in September. We've been working closely with

the 11th Division. Jointly, we have developed some

fascinating concepts of air assault construction

support. It will be interesting to see our theories in

practice.

We have made a lot of progress in the ADM business.

Three ADMs have been eliminated from the system,

including the two most cumbersome ones. We are looking

forward hopefully to the development of the AND - the

Advanced Nuclear Demolition.

With these better munitions, with the ADM platoons just

authorized for stateside combat battalions, and with a

much needed speed-up of the weapon delivery cycle, we

will have a truly advanced nuclear capability.

I spent some time recently observing the joint Exercise

DESERT STRIKE. Those 12,500,000 acres I just told you

about allowed two Corps to manuever against each other

over a front as wide as 150 miles. That's a lot of

front, particularly for a two division Corps making an

assault river crossing. Obviously, our engineers worked

like the devil. There weren't enough of them, but they

worked hard. Many of the uninitiated were happy about

the situation, but those of us who are old hands know

better. These troops obviously lacked opportunity to

receive proper training.

264
1. l Planning for engineer troop support was

inadequate . . perhaps from a lack of appreciation by

the general staff planners, incurred by inadequate

Engineer representation during the planning phase. The

old rule of thumb of "one Army combat battalion to back

up each Division" and similar planning cliches just won't

do any more. A campaign or a battle is now so complex

with its alternatives in size, speed, weaponry and

mobility that each Engineer Plan should be flexible,

custom-tailored job accomplished by a real "pro". I am

afraid the Army's preoccupation with "functionalization"

has caused a trend toward Staff Engineers disappearing or

losing identity by being absorbed by G-4s, etc. I feel

that there is now, more than ever, a need for an

identifiable, full-time Engineer section on every staff

from the division to DA, and I shall continue to say so

and to fight for such an Engineer Section on. every

occasion that presents itself.

2 It was apparent that

Divisions need more training in river

the stateside

crossings. so do

our battalions and bridge companies. It takes a lot of

practice to maintain the skill and teamwork required for

supporting a river crossing. While on the subject of

training, or lack thereof, I'd like to mention an

imposition upon our training time which must be carefully

controlled. My visits to Engineer units reaffirmed that

the morale and skill of fine outfits can easily go down

the drain through misuse by the Post commander of other

non-Engineer authority. While many post projects do provide splendid individual and unit training, many

others do not. I have seen good battalions used as a

labor pool, as stevedores, as police and maintenance

details and in other "dog-robbing" roles whose

value-of-the&moment could never compensate for the great

harm done to these previously splendid organizations.

3

disinterest in

DESERT STRIKE pointed up either a

or the lack of awareness of, the value of

obstacles and barriers. Barriers were shallow; obstacles

were seldom covered by fire; few troops other than

engineers seemed to use or know anything about mines in either offense or defense.

4 Camouflage and concealment was very poor.

while our camouflage materials are pretty poor, we can

still make better use of them than we did. And there is

a lot that can be done with regard to better site

265
I am continuously impressed with the thought that in

spite of our rather exotic equipment the things which

cause us Engineers the most trouble today are the same

ones that have plagued us for as long as there have been

engineer troops. I can easily visualize Richard Gridley

or Rufus Putnam composing the following cliches for

delivery to his commanders and Engineer Instructors:

1. Those are Engineer soldiers -- don't

their sharpness by work that any soldier can do.

dull

2 Get the other combat arms to assist you in

denial operations.

3 Make sure the commanders from Brigade, up,

know exactly what your capabilities are.

4. Try to influence the awareness of all to

the use of camouflage, concealment and dispersion.

5 There is a need for

informationand engineer intelligence;

better terrain

this is a function

in which all arms participate.

6 River crossings are slow, requiring careful

planning, much equipment and prodigious Engineer effort.

7 Exercise intellectual curiosity -- keep

abreast of *things and inform others of your knowledge.

Encourage a cross-fertilization of ideas amongst all whom

you influence.

8 l Keep in touch with the home office.

9. l The Trained Live . . . The untrained Die.

Can you think of many new ones?

I have followed with great interest your agenda of the

past four days. I hope it has been equally interesting

to you and that it has provided you with much sermon

material to enhance your missionary work for the Corps.

266
at least cover the following matters right out of the

bibles of military engineering:

1 That the ability to walk on water has been

a lost art for over 1900 years. Water barriers must

still be crossed the hard way. While river crossing

means and techniques are steadily improving, any combat

crossing is a major task and is one which, unfortunately,

is frequently underestimated by commanders. Make sure

that you continually preach that river crossing operation

planners must call upon Engineers for advice and that

this advice must be called for right from the initiation

of ideas for the crossing. Such plans must be based upon

engineer capabilities, and must provide for adequate

support plus a reserve for contingencies. Come to think

of it, this applies to almost any type of operation --

not just river crossing.

2 Do not neglect

important today as it ever was.

camouflage. It is as

So are barriers.

3 Commanders must not become complacent or

overly patronizing over the Army's new mobility

gadgetry. The Army has developed quite a few new and

sophisticated means for driving to work, but real

mobility for the Army as a whole, truly still begins and

ends with the Engineer. Our new craft and vehicles

indeed allow us to cover more geography sooner -- but

this simply means that the commander will meet many more

obstacles for his Engineers to bridge, to clear, or to

bypass. A good deal of these improved mobility means

create in themselves, vastly increased requirements for

Engineer effort. And -- the same increased mobility on

the part of the enemy makes a barrier and denial

operations more difficult and a matter of true concern to

every commander and soldier, on, or behind, the

battlefield.

4 There are many blessings which flow to the

combined Arms Commander who knows his Engineers'

capabilities -- who uses them wisely, and who constantly

thinks about and provides for the necessary Engineer

means.

5 And there

who does not.. l l

is woe that befalls the Commander

267
Washington, D.C., March 22, 1965

Mr . Chairman and Members of the Committee:

AS you know, I am approaching the end of my term as the

Chief of Engineers of the United States Army, and als

the end of a 36 year career in the Corps of Engineers.

Under the circumstances you will, I trust, forgive a

brief backward look on my part; not because I am

particularly nostalgic about my own career, but because

it happened to have spanned a period of revolutionar

change in the Nation's approach to the development and

utilization of its natural resources. During that period

all of us have, I believe, learned many lessons and

gained much perspective. It has seemed to me that those

of us who have been closest to the Federal Government's

efforts in this field should share our perspective with

those who will be confronted with the increasingly

important, and increasingly difficult, problem of meetin

the Nation's rapidly growing need for the development of

its water and related resources. For it has truly been

said that "past is prologue/

When I began my Army career as a Second Lieutenant, fres

out of West Point in 1929, the Corps of Engineers had two main responsibilities in the civil works field: the

design and construction of navigation works, and the

carrying out of a great project -- which had been

authorized only the year before -- to harness the

Nation's greatest river, the Mississippi. The Federal

Government had not yet accepted a Nation-wide

responsibility for flood control. That was not to come

until 1936 when the Congress enacted the first general

flood control legislation. Today, the Civil Works

Program of the Corps encompasses not only navigation and

flood control, but also the generation of hydro-power

the provision of water for municipal, industrial and

agricultural use, the storage and release of water fo

the improvement of water quality, the drainage of wet

lands, the enhancement of the fish and wildlife resource

the development of the vast recreational potentials o

the projects by which these ends are achieved, and the

preparation of comprehensive river basin plans. And

since I began my career the annual appropriations for th

Civil Works Program have increased from less than 100

million to well over a billion dollars. This striking

change has, in reality, all taken place in less than 25

years; for during the Second World War and the Korean

268
-.

Behind these tremendous changes were the growing needs of

the expanding economy of the greatest industrial Nation

in history. These needs will continue to grow, and the

Nation's programs for meeting them must continue to

grow. But one of the lessons we are just beginning to

learn is this: A modern nation cannot be content with

merely meeting needs as they develop it must use its

public works programs as a means of accelerating the

 growth of the economy, and of enhancing the welfare of

its people. This is one of the fundamental ideas that

should, in my opinion, guide this Committee in its future

deliberations.

As the Civil Works Program has broadened in scope and

increased in magnitude there has been a fundamental

change in the nature of the problems we have been called

upon to solve. Let me illustrate what I mean.

When I first began to grapple with the problems of

resource development, our main concern was with the

investigation, design and construction of individual

projects; and quite often these projects served but a

single purpose. Looking back now I can see that we

didn't appreciate what an easy job we had then. Today we

must plan for the comprehensive development of major

river basins, and our goal for each basin must be a plan

that will, in the long-run, make the most of all of its

resources. This requires us to consider all of the

alternative uses to which these resources could be put,

and all of the alternative ways in which they could be

developed. The single-purpose reservoir has become

virtually a thing of the past. The multiple-purpose

project now dominates water resource development.

Planning has been revolutionized and has become

immeasurably more difficult. No longer is it a matter of

finding a site, designing a structure, and then building

it. Our first concern must be to discover that

combination of projects and programs which will make the

greatest long-run contribution to the wealth of the

Nation and the welfare- of its people; keeping always in

mind that whatever we invest in such projects becomes

unavailable for meeting other urgent human needs. In

modern planning, therefore, we must utilize the know-how

of experts in many fields. Economists, agricultural

experts, specialists in recreation, biologists, and

professional people in still other fields have important

roles to play. Moreover, river basin planning has become

a cooperative undertaking in which the various agencies

269
unified plan. And once such a plan becomes available it

must be used as a guide by all of the agencies concerned.

Comprehensive and coordinated development of major river

basins has been urged since the time of the "Conservation

Crusade" led by President Theodore Roosevelt. Many

commissions and other similar bodies have, during the

ensuing years, supported the concept. The most recent,

and probably the most effective, of these was the Senate

Select Committee on National Water Resources. The report

of this Committee constitutes a landmark in the Nation's

efforts to achieve more efficient use of its natural

resources.

The Select Committee's recommendations were embodied in

the Presidential Standards issued by President Kennedy in

1962, and these Standards were printed as Senate Document

No.97. A happy conjunction of the report of the Select

Committee, the Presidential Standards, and the provision

of an adequate legislative base by Acts of Congress over

a period of many years, has finally made it possible for

the Federal Agencies, working with the States, to provide

the kind of comprehensive river basin plans called for by

President Roosevelt at the beginning of the present

century. I count myself fortunate to have lived through

this period of fruition, and to have been able to make

some contribution to a development which will mean so

much to future generations.

I am convinced that what has been accomplished is a good

thing for our Nation, and I earnestly urge this Committee

to remain steadfast in its support of comprehensive and

coordinated planning for the development of our Nation's

great rivers. You are on the right track.

This is an appropriate point to make a comment that has

been "welling up" in me for some time. Now that I am

about to shift my burden to a new Chief of Engineers, I

feel an obligation to mention a problem that will

probably distress him as much as it has me. It has

become somewhat fashionable lately to intimate that the

Corps of Engineers is incapable of doing modern

comprehensive planning . that we are interested solely in

building engineering "monuments." It is my hope that my

brief recitation of the revolutionary changes that hav

taken place in Corps planning during my own career will

convince you that the Corps is capable of adapting its

planning to the needs of a modern industrial economy. In

fact, . believe that the Corps of Engineers has donemore

270
have advocated for many years, and which the Senate

Select Committee so recently commended. Our basin

planning program began as long ago as 1927 when the

Congress authorized us to develop the so-called "308

reports." These were the first comprehensive plans to be

submitted to Congress by any agency, and they constitute

the basis for some of the great river basin programs now

being carried out. Progressively over the ensuing years

we have improved our planning. An example of a modern

comprehensive plan is that developed for the Delaware

River Basin under Corps leadership. This plan has come

to be considered a milestone in the progress of river

basin planning. It was authorized by the Congress, and

is now being carried out by several agencies of the

Federal Government, the States, and the Delaware River

Basin Commission established by an interstate compact.

We are presently participating in the development of

comprehensive plans for a number of major river basins

throughout the Nation.

Our accomplishments can speak for themselves. I should

like to summarize them for the record. Through the Civil

Works Program the Nation has been provided with about 500

commercial harbors and an inland waterway system

comprising about 22,000 miles of waterway. More than 300

reservoirs have been built or are under construction.

For flood control thousands of miles of levees,

floodwalls and channel improvements have been

constructed. The hydropower installations of the Corps

have an aggregate capacity of 8.8 million kilowatts. At

our multiple-purpose reservoirs we have provided 2.3

million acre-feet of capacity for the storage of

municipal and industrial water. At those projects where

records of recreational use are maintained -- and this

does not include all of our projects -- we logged the

amazing total of 156 million visitor-days in 1964. We

are increasingly providing reservoir capacity for the

storage of water to be used for quality control. We have

built projects to protect hundreds of miles of shore. In

many instances our channel improvement projects have

enabled rich lands to be reclaimed by drainage. Other

projects of a more specialized nature have also been

carried out under the Civil Works Program. I am proud of this record and I believe that this Committee has a right

to be just as proud as . am.

Despite all that has been accomplished in bringing the

Nation's rivers under control and in developing their

waters for use, we are, I believe, still in the initial

271
problems confronting the Nation 'is the regulation of its

rivers for all purposes: not just to reduce flood or to

improve navigation, but also to assure adequate dry season flows for future industrial and urban development,

to maintain a quality of water compatible with such

developments, and at the same time compatible with

recreational use and the continued existence of our fi

and wildlife resources. This will require the planning

and construction of great systems of regulating

reservoirs in our major river basins. This is a job that

the Corps of Engineers can, in my opinion, do better than

any other agency. And this is the great task of the next

several decades.

I would be derelict if I did not express to you my

concern on the subject of basin monetary authorizations.

Two years ago for the first time in history a Chief of

Engineers found himself in the unfortunate position of

stopping some contractors in mid-stride, where although

project appropriations were in hand, basin authorizations

would be exceeded if expenditures of available funds were

not stopped. This resulted in inefficient use of our

means and resulted in placing both the Administration and

the Congress under the gun. Since that time, I have

assured that contracts are not initiated unless there are

both funds and authorizations available sufficiently far

ahead for Congress to give deliberate consideration t o

these requirements. General Graham will present the

situation on those basin authorizations which are again

approaching the limit on our capabilities. I urge

sympathetic consideration and early provision 

additional authorization to carry us forward atleas

three years.

I also bespeak your continued support of a program which

the Corps was authorized to undertake after its objective

had received the strong support of the Senate Select

Committee. I refer to the program under which we provide

a flood plain information service. This is an important

Federal contribution toward better use of the Nation's

flood plain lands. It provides the States and their

subdivisions the expert assistance they require in

regulating the use of their flood plains. I look for

this program to yield important results in the years to

come.

I should like to close this statement by thanking you, on

behalf of the Corps, for the kind and generous

consideration that we have always received from the

Congress.

272
gp

Some of you who are old enough may recall how in the

final act of the play, "You can't Take It With you," the

grandfather arose to address the annual family dinner.

His lines began, "Well, here we are again."

Well, here we are again, at a family gathering for the

Engineer Officers available in the area. For you, it is

another Engineer Dinner, another chance to renew

friendships and to make new ones. For this grandfather,

it is all this -- and more too. It is one of the last

speeches in the last act. It is one of the highlights of

a long journey -- 36 years of traveling down what has

been the main highway of life. Now, I'm giving the turn

signal to move off on a side road where the traffic will

be lighter, the way smoother and the grades easier.

However, I know it will be neither as exciting nor as

satisfying as the road I've been traveling.

Several years ago, when I began thinking about the

inevitability of this evening, I had some qualms about

the kind of organization I would be turning over to my

successor. I was concerned with the effects of the Army headquarters reorganization on the Corps; concerned wit

the Corps losing its place and identity in the Army, and

I was concerned that the assignment, handling and

development of our personnel would suffer.

Tonight those qualms no longer exist. I am proud of the

organization I am turning over to General Cassidy. The

Corps' image has never been brighter; it commands the

respect of the American public, our sister services, and

the other agencies of Government. The proof of the

pudding is in the fact that General Cassidy was nominated

and confirmed to three stars at the outset of his term,

and there will be no waiting -period after he assumes the

office of Chief.

Since becoming the Chief of Engineers four years ago, I

have travelled almost 400,000 miles -- over half of that

during the past two years. I have seen the Corps and its people across the world in every type of mission and in a

wide variety of jobs. At every major installation under

my command I have been proud of our leadership. Even

more important, at every major military organization 

have visited, the commander has been outspoken in hi

praise and confidence in his engineers. Additionall

273
-enumerate a few who are filling or recently filled some

of these posts:

Lt General Starbird is

Communications Agency; Lt.

the director of the Defense

General Ely is the Deputy

Director of Defense Research and Engineering; Lt. General

Lincoln is the DCSLOG of the Department of the Army;

Major General Lampert is the Superintendent of the U. S.

Army, Europe; Major General Oberback is the Director of

Operations of the U. S. European Command; Brigadier

General Dunn, Deputy Chief of Staff, 8th Army; Colonel

Larry Vogel was Chief of Staff of the Berlin Brigade

after serving as its Engineer and is now on assignment

for the Corps to NASA; Colonel Glasgow is the Commander

of the 1st Division Support Command; Colonel Snow is the

Commander of an Infantry Brigade. I could go on with a

long and distinguished list o f Engineers. These, of

course, are in addition to those holding key positions

with Engineer tinge.

The Commanders of our major military organizations have

reason to have confidence in their Engineers. As

Governor Al Smith used to say, "Let's take a look at the

record":

The 1st Engineer Battalion was the only Army unit of

Battalion size to receive a unit commendation from STRIKE

command in the Goldfire I Exercise. The 127th Engineer

Battalion of the 11th Air Assault Division has been

outstanding in its support and the development of -air

assault techniques; Engineer units in Alaska were

commended for their fine work in the aftermath of the

Alaska earthquake last year; the 809th Engineer Battalion

is doing an outstanding job in constructing a first class

military highway in Thailand, and has been praised by the

Chief of Staff; the Engineer units in Korea, even those

diluted with KATUSA, are doing excellent work. In

Germany, the Engineer units are outstanding with atomic

demolitions, on barrier work and with float bridges, all

important parts of the tactical commander's plans for the

defense of Europe. We have many fine Engineer Units. I

have mentioned only a few.

Why is this true? I'll tell you why. Let me give you a

few thoughts, gathered over 36 years, which will

illustrate why we have a fine organization, and perhaps

point the way to the future.

274
y 

among military organizations -- and it is also a clue t

the reason. It is the Army Corps of Engineers; not the Engineer Corps or any other blank Corps. It is the Corps

of ENGINEERS, . a grouping of dedicated professional

leaders, recognized as such, utilized as such, and

handled as such. Any other handling will not do the job.

We succeed because the people we select are good people.

We give them the job and the authority to do the job, and

pretty darn well let them do it! This accomplishes two

things -- as I see it: It frees the superiors from

engulfing, time-consuming details and allows them to do

their jobs; and it is a "head-stretching" exercise for

those juniors, equipping them for bigger and better jobs

with more responsibility. And we have found that the

good ones flourish and grow. The alternative can only be

over-control, "yes" men and a withering of ability and

desire.

Let your lieutenants make their mistakes -- as we all

made our mistakes -- when they are young -- but be sure

you give them the kind of guidance and assistance that

will help them learn from those mistakes: It has been

said, "Good judgment comes from experience that itself

came from bad judgment." Recognize the great talent that

our lieutenants and young captains possess these days -- and utilize it. The talent and education they bring with

them are better than we oldsters brought along with US

when we joined the Army. Experience is what we can give

them, and it must be good, responsible experience. Only in that way can we provide the kind of officer described

by our Vice Chief of Staff when I visited one of his

divisions a few years ago. "All these commanders want

these days," he said, "are second lieutenants with 20

years experience."

The young man today who joins us is "gung ho" for

exercising and developing his technical skill. My

generation has sold them the concept that science and

engineering are the key to their future and the future of

our Nation. Now it's our job to show them that a Corps

of Engineers career will give them that chance to meet

the challenges of a world of exploding technology, but

you must also demonstrate for them the necessity of

developing leadership, a capacity to handle people and to

manage major undertakings. A . good Corps officer

possesses qualities of leadership as well as technical

275
Our job is big and it demands much hard work from all of

us. But working harder is not the answer alone --

constantly "working smarter" is much more important. And

to that I would like to add: "Never lose your

intellectual curiosity." In this day and age, no one

ever learns too much. See what other engineers nearby

are doing. Somebody may be able to offer information or

ideas that will help you in your present mission. If it

isn't of any help immediately it will certainly be useful

later when you have an assignment in that field.

A moment ago I said our job is big and challenging. I

think it's going to get bigger and more challenging in

the decade ahead. Many friends as well as foes accuse us

of forever looking for more work, of being "work

grabbers" and "pork barrelers." There is some truth in

the "work-grabbers" accusation. We do, and should,

continue to look for work of sufficient magnitude,

variety and challenge to build and maintain an

organization equal to the task of coping successfully

with whatever contingency may arise in peace or in war.

Only by such work can we sustain our organization and

attract and keep the caliber of people we require. Yes,

we look for work, for when the work-load decreases, the

Nation loses an essential capability. You might remember

this in your discussion among yourselves and with others

both in and out of the Army. The essentiality of our

civil works to the defense of the Nation has been

adequately portrayed, affirmed, and has been confirmed at

the highest levels. We aim to obtain enough of this and

other work to be in the vanguard of Engineering, and to

have a capability to meet the problem no matter what it

is.

Often times our friends chide us about our "detachment"

from the Army in much of our work. This is not really

true. In my contacts with the Chief of Staff and Senior Army Officers, I make the point that the Corps and its

work is one of the most effective agents the Army has in

the field of public and community relations. We are

proud of being part of the Army; we wear our uniforms --

even on Civil Works jobs; and we insist that we be known

as the ARMY Corps of Engineers. ---.-

In many parts of the united States, the Corps is better

known than the rest of the Army. In some areas, the terms

276
pg cotuctg obcato tcooy

or well-being of the. area.

Federal agencies

I have stated that only two

affect the lives of more people than

does the Army Corps of Engineers -- the Post Office

Department and the Bureau of Internal Revenue, and I dare

say we are more popular than the latter.

This contact with the public is of great value to the

Army and don't let your Army friends forget it.

We are first and foremost a combat arm, an integral part

of the fighting ground forces, and are not only anxious

to retain our identity at Corps, Army and Departmental

levels, but to make sure that our talents and

capabilities are properly utilized. For example, there

seems to be a considerable pre-occupation with the matter

of "functionalization" these days, and we must be on

guard as to application. We in the Corps have no

objection to functionalization of supply and maintenance;

in fact, we support it. However, this is as far as we

can go in supporting functionalization in our work. What

could be more functional than military engineering as we

now know it in the work of the

engineering Corps?

is a function

Military -- a pure function under one

heading that provides an essential "package deal" to the

user. To re-group portions of this function outside the

realm of the engineer is not functionalization -- it is

"fractionalization"!

To eliminate Engineer sections of staffs and to place

their responsibilities in other so-called "functional"

elements of the staff would break up what I consider one

of the purest functional arrangements the Army has had:

I am not going to dwell on the weaknesses that can result

from a lack of Engineer participation in the planning and

execution of missions, they are many. I will

however, say I

that many blessings flow to the Commander who

has knowledge of his Engineers' capabilities and who uses

them wisely -- but he must have someone who

inform him of these capabilities and how they

employed. The Commander must have "packaged

directly from the only man whose knowledge is

the task -- the Engineer.

can truly

should be

advice,"

equal to

The Corps must remain an integral part of the Army. Its

troop units must continue to play a dual role of combat

and combat support. We in the Corps must also earn and

277
p

py 

selections not only as leaders of the Corps, but of the

Army and the Department of Defense as well.

I have been talking largely about the uniformed members

of the Corps. Remember, in that part of the Corps which

I command, we have a marriage of the military and 

civilian. It is a remarkably happy marriage. The

civilian brings continuity, engineering and scientific

skill to the marriage, and provide the bulk of our forces

in both contract construction and in geodesy and

mapping. Our civilian employees take great pride in

being members of the Corps, and a great many of them have

their uniforms hanging "at the ready". They do a great

deal in training and developing our younger officers.

The military brings to the marriage some important

contributions as well. You bring leadership gained

through broad experience; engineering and management

skills, and not the least important by any means, a

change of pace through rotation at frequent intervals

that helps to inject new ideas and renewed enthusiasm

into the organization.

The Corps of Engineers is a great world-wide

organization, but in all modesty, to get a true

evaluation of your worth, we have to go back to President

Johnson's remarks last September at the dedication of the

Eufaula Dam near Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I quote the

President: "The building of that dam -- the supervision

of that dam -- was by one of the greatest organizations

ever known to man -- one of the finest organizations ever

conceived and developed by the United States Government

-- the Army Corps of Engineers."

Anything I might add to that would be gilding the lily.

At the start of this talk, I mentioned "You Can't Take it

With You." However, this is one grandfather who will

take it with him. I take with unique memories,

satisfaction and friendships that were made in 36

wonderful years as a member of the U. S. Army Corps of

Engineers. And to have had the great, great privilege of

being your Chief makes me very proud.

278
INTERVIEW WITH LIEUTENANT GENERAL WALTER K. WILSON, JR.

AND MRS. WILSON

PROFESSOR RICHARD T. FARRELL, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND

MOBILE, ALABAMA, JULY 21, 1975

A* l

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A-l:

A l0

A-l:

You know, I told you how I stayed in a little

family hotel in Casablanca. When I returned with

my family, I felt I had to take the time to have my

family meet the proprietor and his wife. They had

been so nice to me for three months. Freddie was

about five and we went around to their place. The

minute we walked in, they greeted us, then produced 

a bottle of champagne and everything was just

fine. After about 15 minutes, I heard the wife

saying in pretty broken English, "You don't want

another one," and I looked around and there was

Freddie. Quietly, he had drunk as fast as he

could. He was really thirsty. He had about five

glasses of champagne before we discovered what was

going on, and he'd never had anything like that in

his life.

Needless to say, he had a nice afternoon nap.

When we got in the car, he sacked out and that was

the end of him for a long time, but that's part of

the social amenities.

Well, we had just gone to Atlanta from Mobile. I

had to stay in Mobile and let the children finish

the fall semester. So we arrived in Atlanta and

barely settled there in a brand new house with a

new yard--just a lot of mud and you can imagine

what they did to the house. Weary came home from

Washington and said, "How'd you like to go to

Africa?' Africa: It was the last place on earth

I'd ever hoped in my whole life to go. That was

very exciting. A nice trip over and I thought

well, we'll be here a year, and as it turned out,

we were over there for two years.

*Responses marked A are those of General Wilson. Those

marked A-l are Mrs. Wilson's replies.

279
, , , 

We had many exciting experiences. We met a

Moroccan who had four wives, and he asked us down

to lunch often. The first time we went, he said to

be sure to bring some guests, so we asked 4 or 5

people. When we got there, he was terribly

disappointed because we hadn't brought 25! The

food was very exotic. They do not use a knife and

fork. They use their fingers, and they eat what

they call couscous, which is like a brown rice to

us, soaked with a marvelous sauce and cooked with

lamb. And the odd part--I'm sure it takes many

years of practice to do it-they took a small

amount in their fingers and tossed it around and

made a perfect ball and then took their thumb and

popped it into their mouths. Fortunately, they

gave us a very big napkin. You tucked it in the

front, otherwise you would have had rice all over

you. We lived near the bullring, and we could hear

them say, "Ole," "Ole."

A l

a It was the only place I could find, as I had little

time for house-hunting before I had to leave for

Washington. I had arranged for the upstairs in a

family house in which the lower floor was used as

an office. They let us rent the upstairs, and it

was only a half a block away from the bullring as

she said, music and all. We went to several events

there. On one occasion 'I was the president of the

bullfight program. The funniest time was when we

went to Torro ball, it was really soccer with a

young bull loose in the arena. They had on bright

yellow and bright red shirts, and they were playing

soccer. A young bull was in there and stopped the

whole play by getting in the goal. The goalkeeper

wouldn't go back there, and the attack wouldn't run

in close enough to the goal to get control of the

ball. It was funny as heck.

A-l: We employed Arabs as servants, and they could not

speak English. We couldn't speak French or Arabic,

so there was a matter of gestures and things.

A 0l In the first temporary home we had no servants.

A-l: Yes, we did, we had a little boy who always wore

his fez when he served. Anyhow, he didn't do so

280
A 0l

A-l:

A 0l

A-l:

A l

l

A-l:

A-l:

Then we moved to a very nice house in a better part

of town. No screens--fancy living place with no

screens!

You could ride around Casablanca, and you always

knew where the Americans lived as they had ordered

screens from Sears. What is the French word for

dog?

Chien.

I was trying to get across what I wanted for lunch

and how I wanted it prepared. Not speaking Arabic

or French and the fatima not speaking English, it

was quite a chore. So I did tell her one day, we

were to have "Chaude Chien." "No Madam! No Madam!"

she said. She thought I really meant dog. She was

horrified. Then we moved from there out to

Nouasseur on the airbase.

Oh , but this house in Casa was in a very lovely

area and had a big high brick wall all the way

round the garden but there was practically no

heat. There was hot water in the kitchen. There

was hot water in one bathroom.

But there was not even a hot water spigot for the

kitchen.

water!

You can imagine washing dishes in cold

And no heat, there was one gas burner on the

landing between the lower floor and the upper floor. That was the total heat.

borrowing what we call

And we ended up

"little stinkers=-little

kerosene heaters--that you could carry around. You

turned them on until it got the chill off, but by

then you couldn't breathe so you'd turn the things

off. You either were breathing and cold or not

breathing and reasonably warm. Oh I it was

something.

Oh , there were many things strange to us. They

were so interesting you forgot all of the

unpleasant part and lived through it.

281
g p

a halt and said, "What's going on?" Well, they're

surrounding the Medina, which is the native city,

because they were afraid that there were going to

be some riots. But the trouble is my house was two

blocks inside this ring of troops and two blocks

from the Medina. And I finally had to talk my way

through the ring, and we kept the doors closed

pretty tight that night.

A-l: When we were invited to this Caid's (a Muslim local

administrator's) villa for lunch, which was around

twelve-thirty or one o'clock, you sat at low, round

tables. They gave a huge napkin to put on your

lap but no knives and forks of any kind. Then a

servant came by with a big silver bowl in the

center of which was a soap dish. They had a

pitcher of warm water in the other hand. You

washed your hands with soap, and then the servant

poured the water from the pitcher over your hands

to remove the soap, and then everyone dried on the

same towel.

A 00 The first time we got involved in this we went to a

Fantasia--a kind of county fair. Three of our

senior U.S. senators--Duff, Stennis, and Case-were

to be the featured guests at this Fantasia. It was

an hour's drive from Nouasseur. We drove down

there with Colonel and Mrs. Carlson, all of us with

our children . We went in picnic clothes since we

planned to tailgate lunch. About eleven-thirty ,

some French officers began coming up and said I was

the senior American present, and they said, 'Where

are your senators?" Well this was in French, but I

understood what they were saying, and I said, ‘They

aren't my problem. " Twelve o'clock came, and they

said, "Your senators have not come yet, and it's

time to go to the Drffa (meal)." I said, "I'm

sorry." They said, "You will have to represent

them." " Oh " I said,

my family here."

"I can't do that, I've got

"Well bring your family.” I

said, "I can't do that because besides two boys, I

have my wife and two daughters.' They said, "You

must come." So we got in the car and drove up on

the hill to a beautiful large tent all decorated

with rugs on the ground and small low round tables

surrounded by pillows and hassocks. It was jammed

282
guests. All the men were talking and laughing when

I marched in ahead of my troops, my wife and two

daughters and two sons. When we walked in that

door and the first female entered, there was dead

silence. We were guided to the place of honor

where they seated us around a table, and they

commandeered a man from an adjoining table to join

us. This is when we met our Caid. Apparently he

was drafted, because he could speak French. He had

served in the French Army as a captain in World War

II He was very colorful and was dressed in a

beautiful sheer robe through which his pistol and

jeweled knife showed. He did his best to be a

charming host but was handicapped because he was

the only one who could understand French. I was

trying to interpret. The atmosphere in the tent

remained strained, but after the handwashing

exercise described above, the servants began

bringing the food.

A-l: It was roasted lamb--a complete roasted lamb.

A 0l It was on this big tray. Freddie saw something

down underneath the lamb that he wanted, and he

stuck his little hand down there to get it. It was

hot as fire, and he went "Owoooooo" at the top of

his lungs. Well, all the men looked, and they all

laughed, and that broke the ice. Everything was

all right from then on.

A-l: It was in an arid land close to the foothills of

the Atlas Mountains.

A 0l As I said, he'd been a captain of the French Army

in World War II. A Caid is a kind of hereditary

tribal leader or religious magistrate in a rural

area. As I stated, you could see his pistol right

through his outer robe, and the kids saw them. He

was a very charming man, but he spoke nothing but

French and Arabic. So I had to try to translate

everything. It was tough, but we got by. We had

him to our house several times afterwards, and he

would have us down there.

He was as handsome as Rudolph Valentino playing a

shiek. He was also as charming as he was

handsome. They are allowed to have four wives.

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Did that cause you problems in other formal

occasions?

He invited them all, and only the men would come;

But the women never came, and the wives never

appeared when you were guests in their home.

He was a good Muslim. He did not drink any

alcoholic drinks. Luckily, we solved that. We had

parties for him to return favors, and we had the

usual things you have. But also we had coffee

frappe in a big bowl with ice cream floating in

it. I finally could get across to them that -there

wasn't any alcohol in it. Boy that coffee frappe

would go down in no time at all: It was a fine

solution. I like it also,' and since I don't drink

alcohol, I helped drink it.

NOW his house was way down in the country. We

drove about two hours I guess to get there. It was

almost down to the mountains. Their guest quarters

are in an open court with the rooms all around this

rectangular court --kind of a covered walkway--but

open to the sky in the center with a beautiful

fountain and shrubs and trees, all in the patio.

And that% as far in his home as you get. That's

the guest court. There the women don't show. He

brought his sons in and proudly showed them off.

There were about ten or something like that. But

we never once met the wives.

The luncheon was interesting. They started with

this roast lamb. It was roasted just beautifully.

YOU reached over and pulled pieces off with your

fingers and ate with your fingers. When they had

this couscous I was telling you about, then they

had string beans that you ate with your fingers.

They had what they called a pigeon pie, which was

sort of a dessert with layers of very flaky pastry

and this filling that was supposed to be pigeon. I

thought sometimes it was chicken, but I wasn't

sure. It had cinnamon and sugar and all this sort

of thing. It would b e delicious, and always we

wound up with champagne, of course. And you spent

hours sitting and enjoying eating this wonderful

Arab feast.

284
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A .

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A-l:

A-l:

A-l:

Q l

l They continued to work?

A-l: Yes .

serve more liquor. But what tickled me, I asked

the Caid, I said, "Well, how do you like this

having four wives?" "Well," he said, "do you ever

have any trouble with your wife?" I said,

"Occasionally." He shrugged and indicated to

multiply this by four. Of course, this was in his

French and my pidgin French, but we got along very

well.

He owned phosphate mines down in his area in

Morocco.

He and his tribe, I don't know what was his and

what was theirs. He was well off, but I think he

had to go to Paris later on account of the

revolution, when the French were ousted, because

he'd been too strong a supporter of the French.

Well, I think El Glouie was the richest man in that

part of Africa and he was definitely not pro-French.

He was the pasha or chief of Marrakech and had

influence over a large area.

Yes. So when they came back into rule, he had

these men come in and crawl on their hands and

knees--the ones who had been pro-French. He had

them crawl on their hands and knees and call to him

and bow down to him and not until then were they

forgiven.

They also have what they call Ramadan, which is an

equivalent to Lent in this country. And they don't

eat or drink from sunup to sundown.. Absolutely

nothing. But they get up and go to work and go to

their jobs.

The construction was going on.

Not a drink of water nor a bite of food, and the

sun was beastly hot out there in the middle of the

day.

285
building. They just disappeared. They slept in

the daytime when they could, and they ate all night.

A-l: We went to dinner one night and there was a Caid

there. He had on his beautiful julaba, and they

always shot a gun at sunset, which meant that you could eat and drink. Seeing him sitting there, you

could see him dying for a drink of water or liquid

of some kind, and finally the gun was shot, and boy did he grab a glass of water:

One interesting thing about the Fantasia that we

attended, the kind of fair we were telling you

about, there were no trees, very few trees then,

and they had their tents lined with oriental rugs.

The dirt floors were covered also with rugs. If

you didn't step in the dirt, you stepped on the

beautiful, beautiful rugs. It was quite an

experience. I'm glad I don't live over there.

When you go in your car, you'd see the families

going down the road. The men would ride a donkey,

and the women and the children followed walking

behind the donkey. I didn't think very much of

that.

A 00 Tell him about the flowers they used to sell you on

the side of the roads.

A-l: Oh, the fields were filled with yellow and white

daisies, and black-eyed susans, poppies, and flax.

I didn't fly over there, but Weary did. He said it

looked like a magnificent oriental rug from the

air, immediately following the rainy season.

A ll Well you see it's very dry except for three

months. At the end of that three months' rain, the

flowers are knee-high in what was normally dry,

flat, hard dirt.

A-l: You wondered how they possibly got through all of

that baked soil.

A l

l They'd pick these flowers and weave them into a

kind of bouquet. The stems would be nearly as big

around as your two hands could form a circle.

A-l: A cone, it was cone shaped, I remember.

286
A-l: And heavy, oh, it was the heaviest thing you can

possibly imagine, but it was a wonderful, wonderful

experience.

A .

l Were you prepared for some of the local customs? I

know you've lived and traveled extensively before,

but were you prepared or were you sort of left to

adjust on your own?

A-l: You adjusted on your own, don't you think, Weary?

A 00 Oh, we adjusted on our own, and it wasn't too bad.

A-l: Now, you know, when the families are going to some

foreign countries, they have to take a course in

that language, but not then. You just did the best

you could. It was amazing. We finally had a

houseboy, excellent and just marvelous, but he

couldn't speak English. I couldn't speak Arabic or

French, but by then I spoke "kitchen" French. I

finally learned to speak enough kitchen French. I

would do a recipe once with him, and that was it.

He could do it by himself just perfectly after

that. We'd go through gestures, and we'd come up

with what I had said that we would have for dinner

or for lunch. It just worked out fine.

A 0l Well, we hired a yard boy that spoke only Arabic,

no French. I figured this was our chance to learn

a little Arabic, but he learned English. We didn't

learn Arabic. He lived about a mile away in a tent

out in the middle of the field with his family, his

mother, his wife, kids. He invited us over to his

house, for tea I guess. So he proudly led us over

there riding his bicycle, and we followed in our

car. When we got there, I'm telling you, you have

never seen such clean dirt in all of your life.

The compound was absolutely bare, but they had a

clean floor. We sat down, but none of the family

sat down with us. They brought tea and cakes of

some kind. It was a treat, and with his native

curtsy and so on, really it was very nice. He

served us in the best he had and offered his best

in cakes.

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A 00

A-l:

A ll

Q 00

A 00

A-l:

A l

0

A-l:

A 0l

A-l:

What about the PX and the commissary and things of

that sort?

Oh, yes, they had them out at Nouasseur.

Yes, we had them also with the construction. A

part of the CPFF contract, they ran a PX and a

commissary.

YOU used scrip in the commissary and PXs, and you

used francs in the construction camps and in the

local markets, of course.

The contractors' personnel were not supposed to

have scrip. That as for the military and the

government. They were supposed to use local

currency. It was a li

that straight. Then, of

workers were making good

ttle hairy trying to keep

course, these construction

money.

about Christmastime?

rainy season starts about

Is it a good place to go

Yes, I'd say so. The

late January, doesn't it, Jeanne?

Yes l

Now, it's not hot at Christmastime. Of course, in

the middle of the day, it's very comfortable. They

don't have heat. We had my mother visit us over

there, and we went up to Spanish Morocco over

Christmas. We stayed in a big hotel with high

ceilings and no heat and darn near froze to death.

The food was interesting--and good.

They never served dinner before 11 o'clock, and you

were just famished by then besides being sleepy on

top of that.

Plus being cold.

Everything was quiet in the streets until around

six o'clock, and then the populace came out. They

walked up and down the streets and chatted and sang

and enjoyed themselves thoroughly.

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A-l:

A-l: Yes l

A l0 The rainy season would end about early April, and

this gorgeous vegetation was everyplace. We

skimmed off a baseball diamond every year in a kind

of a little parade ground here, around the

construction area, and played softball. It was

utterly, completely burned over ground and the next

spring when the rainy season came, it would be knee

deep in poppies.

A l0

Q 0l

A 0l

Q 0

l

i A:

It's pretty country. I also thought parts of

Germany were beautiful. Southern Germany was

lovely, but the Scandinavian countries; Norway,

Sweden, we loved Oslo; we thought it was just

beautiful.

I'd say October, November, December, and April and

May were the prettiest times, wouldn't you?

What was the size of the Army's units there? It

must not have been too terribly large.

Ours, you mean?

Well, yours plus the others.

In other words, the Air Force?

Yes.

There wasn't anything to begin with hardly. We

were building their facilities. It got to be a

fairly good size. They were big airbases before we

finished, but if we hadn't had the construction

contractor there and all that, there wouldn't have

been hardly anybody. But there must have been

15,000 of the construction contractor's employees,

about a third of them Americans, at basically five

locations. So there was a pretty good number.

Did they do any road improvements that would

benefit the local economy besides having a military

importance?

289
government, improved main, highways leading to the

five major airfields which would help the civilian

economy when it was over. Plus there were an awful

lot of people living off the civilian economy. So

there was new construction going on all the time

providing new housing for the combined American

personnel. Also, support facilities sprang up. So

the country was built up to a major degree as a

result of the effort involved and the number of

people.

Q l

l Well, that's true. That was another

primarily. No, country actually this was a big shot in the

arm economically to Morocco. It was that much

payroll. While most of the Americans didn't live

off the economy really, there was still a whole lot

of that money that found its way into the local

economy.

A-l: There were only a hundred sets of "prefabbed"

family quarters out at Nouasseur. That's all they

had out here, and we had no telephones. We had one

when we first got established in Casablanca, but

our friends didn't have one. We couldn't speak

French, so we did not use them. When we got out to

Nouasseur there were no telephones at all. We just

got along beautifully. We sent notes by our

husbands to the office, and they would give them to

the other husbands. It was a successful operation.

A 0l It was a little construction village, prefabricated

houses and things like that, very comfortable.

Some of them were better than others. We lived in

one of the better ones when we moved out there. It

was a very comfortable house. It had one simple stand-up wall heater in the whole house, but we did

have hot water.

A- 1l

l Lots of hot water, which was a

Q 0

0 Where did you get water during the dry season? Did

the Corps have to undertake all that, too?

A 0l We too, had developed our own water supply and

sewer system.

290
A .

0 Well, there were even more problems in Saudi

Arabia. Saudi Arabia was just one heck of a lot

less pleasant and hotter than Morocco, and utterly

barren. Just a wasteland. Now in Morocco,

starting with the coast and moving in for about 50

miles, you got a fair degree of vegetation. Maybe

when you got to about the 150-mile mark it's just

awful dry. But the first 50 miles is pretty well

cultivated.

A-l: We used to go up to Port Leyoute, which was the

naval part of the U.S. presence over there. We'd

go to the resident general's home, which was a

gorgeous, elaborate palace.

A l

l But that was pretty close to the coast, too.

A-l: Yes, but I was going to say that we were invited

for lunch, and we discovered the French don't use

tablecloths or placemats. They have beautiful

tables, lovely wood and all, but not a sign of a

mat of any kind. Behind nearly everyone seated at

a luncheon table for 25 or 30 people were the.

Senegalese. They were great big strapping people.

They always wore a fez, of course, voluminous

sleeves tight at the wrist, baggy pants coming to

the knees, and then boots on top of that. You just

had individual service. It was a fascinating

thing. I'll never forget it. When the Moroccans

were getting ready to run the French out of

Morocco, we were up there for lunch that day, and

the resident general and his wife, of course, were

at the head and foot of the table and an aide came

in and whispered something to the resident

general. Lunch went right on very smoothly, and

what the aide had told them was that they would be

leaving the minute this luncheon was over and going

back to France because he was ordered out of the

country: There was not a change of expression on

that man's or that woman's face. They went right

through the whole business. It was just fantastic

to see it.

At night when you went to town, which was not very

often--we were 18 miles out of Casablanca when we

moved to Nouasseur--the natives would start

291
huge piece of canvas and sit down in front of it

and sell their products, beautiful vegetables,

perfectly gorgeous vegetables. At night, all these

little carts, these were two-wheel carts with a

donkey pulling them, would be going down the road;

and they would have a lantern tied on the back end,

and that's the only way you knew that there was

something in front of you. You had to be very

careful.

Q 0

l Did that town itself have any street lights or

anything of that sort?

A-l: Yes, yes, downtown in Casablanca.

A 0l It was a European-looking town, the main part.

A-l: They had magnificent hotels. Oh, the hotels were

just magnificent. We would go to a big dinner in

town. They would make elaborate things such as a

basket made out of french-fried potatoes woven in

the shape of a basket and filled with more

french-fried potatoes. You ate the whole basket.

They'd have a pheasant, feathers and all, or they'd

have a duck. It would be all dressed up, which was

not very appetizing, but it was very interesting.

They always passed it around and showed it to all -

the quests before they served it.

traveling abroad as part of your research?

Are you

Q 0

l Well, we're going to Italy.

A-l: That is exciting. Going any particular place in

Italy?

Q 0

0 Well, we'll be at Livorno-Pisa. I guess we'll

spend some time in the Naples area, and we're

supposed to then go to some of the sites where the

Corps has done some work. They specifically want

us to go to Saudi Arabia.

A l0 Taking your wife with you?

Q .

l Well, I don't know whether she'll go there or not,

I may leave her in Turkey.

292
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A-l:

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A-l: You mean in Morocco?

Q 0l Yes. l

A-l: Oh, they had a hospital right there and doctors.

A .0

Q l

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utterly and completely fascinating. They've got

some artifacts that go back to 2,000 B.C. from the

people in the Bible they talk about; "the Hittites

came down out on the hills." And if you get to

Cairo, go to the National Museum. Those are the

only things I ever tell people to go see. I feel

confident everybody will take them.

Tell your wife to get some Halozone pills because

the water is terrible over there. You'll have all

kinds of trouble,

if you don't,

all kinds of awful tummy troubles

if you try to drink the water. Just

dissolve one in one of those bottles of water.

Well,

wines.

you kind of get tired of drinking nothing but

You get a wine bottle. Drink it and refill

it with water and put a Halozone tablet in it.

Then you can just drink it safely.

We had a group going from Mobile to Spain to a

sister city, and we had told several of them to be

sure to get some Halozone pills. They didn't for

some reason, and they really had their problems.

Well, that's very good to know.

You get so you want a drink of water. It's the

nicest thing you can think of.

What did you do when your children got ill or 

something, would you have to take them to the naval

facility?

Well number one, we built one. So as the

construction went on, life got smoother. And

number two, the contractor had to have some medical

facilities right from the beginning, and we were

eligible to go to those, too. l

Can you recall anything else you want to comment on?

293
paint shop. Nouasseur was a base.- I mean not just

an airbase but a logistical base. It had a lot of

storage space for all the whole Middle East and

everything else and a lot of rebuilt capabilities

and so on. We started a paint shop. We got it

designed and started building it. We got it about

half built with a big air tunnel below the floor,

and they decided to cut down on the scope.

Well, at that stage in life, we were halfway done.

We had all this concrete, and we had all the

materials on hand. I said, "The cheapest thing for

you to do now is either to stop and forget it, or

else build it the way it's designed." But the Air

Force said no, so we cut it in half. It took about

a year to modify everything else. When I went back

there the next time, which was a year or so later,

it was complete. It had cost 150 percent of what

the bigger one would have cost, and they had two

tricycles and a bicycle in there being painted.

It's expensive to change your mind. Of course,

that whole project had changed its mind with the

development of greater range in the airplane, they

didn't need it anymore.

Q l

l Well, how do you account for that--the speed, the

decision to do one thing and then changing their

mind? Did it have anything to do with Korea?

A .a Definitely. You see that's the reason we started

it in 1951. But by 1955-1957, Korea wasn't very

much of a tinderbox. But the reason that they were

moving so fast in the first instance was the fear

of Korea expanding and the Chinese and Russians

getting in on it, too. But you can't tell. That

little magazine article, you know the one you've

got 0 It's got that same Napoleonic sentence in

there. "The future of the world depends on you

completing these fields.' He believed it, they told him that, and he took it for the gospel. I

found out over the years that you have to be just a

little bit of an SOB to succeed in that kind of

business. If you're too honest and sweet and kind,

you just get left out there in left field.

294
INTERVIEW WITH LIEUTENANT GENERAL WALTER K. WILSON, JR.

PROFESSOR RICHARD T. FARRELL, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND

MOBILE, ALABAMA, JULY 21, 1975

Q 0

e I am interested in what you remember about your

service in the Mediterranean Division. It was

established in 1952, and you came in as Division

Engineer in 1953.

A al Well, let me see. For a little background, East

Atlantic District in Morocco got going about the

same time as Greenland. The North Atlantic

Division was responsible for both these Districts.

And, incidentally, it was supervising me and Mobile

to a degree since we were building a classified

facility up in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, that was

coordinated with one that General Sturgis was

building out in the Denver area. Greenland was

closer, and also Greenland had the problem of

seasonal construction. So it got one heck of a lot

of attention from the Division and the Chief's

office. I don't think Morocco did.

North Atlantic Division was gradually relieved of

some of its excess assignments. The East Ocean

Division was formed in Richmond to take over the

northern work, and Mediterranean Division was

established to take over the Middle East and East

Atlantic Districts and the Turkish-U.S. Engineer

Group (TUSEG).

The first District Engineer in Morocco was George

Derby. I know him very well. He was a cadet when

I was. He was two years ahead of me, and there's

no finer gentleman in the world. The construction

in Morocco was started before it was ready. It was

kind of like landing on a hostile shore. What I

learned out there did me a lot of good when we were

doing things in Vietnam because I could see what

was coming but nobody paid much attention then

either, so it didn't help. But, through no one

person's fault, but just the fact that the

management really thought they had to complete

certain physical work by that summer in order to

prevent some kind of a world problem with Russia

and others, they poured it in. They shipped stuff,

295
it. They didn't have any warehouses. They didn't

have these kinds of things. They could have waited

a couple of months and gotten their organization

built up and a little storage area. It was very

much like, as I say, landing on a hostile shore.

Materials were landed and got put out some place,

and that's the last anybody saw them for a while.

Some of them were probably never seen again.

Furthermore, the emphasis in dealing with the

contractor was to get the job done. The key thing

was there must be planes landing on the 14th of

July 1951.

There were several airfields capable of taking some

b

planes by that deadline, but they seren't as well

uilt as normal. There were some little

pebbles-- several feet in diameter--within inches or

feet of the surface of the runway. They had placed

fill and rock, day and night. There had been the

usual inspection and so on, but there had also been

this terrific urge. The fate of the free world

depended on getting this ready, and probably that

was the true cause.

At any rate, they did land planes there on

schedule, and we didn't have any expansion of the

Korean War into a world deal, and so maybe that was

it, I don't know. But it meant that the

contractors' efforts were less than perfect in that

they didn't have an opportunity to get staffed and

organized and so on. The A-E's

[architect-engineer's] work was similar, and people

were thrown i n helter-skelter and tried to get

going and organized. Frankly, that's why they

started the Mediterranean Division.

[Orville E.] Walsh went over as Division Engineer

to establish the Division, and [Gunnard] "Swede"

Carlson and others [went over]. But by the time

they got there, the job organization was a group of

armed camps. Everybody was keeping his little

black book to protect himself. I'm talking now

about everybody in the District itself and their

key people, the architect-engineer and their key

people, the construction contractor combine and

their key people, the Air Force command over there,

and the French liaison mission. Now you throw

296
didnt like it worth a damn. They figured they had

now gone through the worst. They had gotten over

the worst, and now suddenly here's this helpful

crowd showing up only 20 miles away to look over

their shoulders and step on them. So let's put it

that it was not a mutual, pleasant, or happy

situation on the U.S. side. I don't blame any particular individual. It's just, you know, when

something starts bad, it scares everybody.

In the meantime the Air Force, at this stage in

life, was quite interested in doing their own

construction and not having the Corps of Engineers

do it. This looked to them like a golden

opportunity. There were congressional

investigations of all kinds. Now this was all

going on about the time that the Division was

organized, and I think it was part of the cause of

organizing the Division. But let's put it that the

Chief of Engineers didn't wake up to the fact that

the job was in trouble till it was already in much

trouble. At that stage, it was not easy to correct.

We had an outstanding group of contractors, and

they had some really fine people. We had a real

outstanding group of architect-engineers.

Unfortunately, they didn't necessarily send as

high caliber over there after the initial start as

I would have liked to have seen them send, but they

still were well qualified. There . was an

outstanding group of consultants. But this same

atmosphere of fear existed throughout. I just know

about it from reading into the situation when I got

there and from working and talking with many of

those who had been involved as I earned their

acceptance.

When I was appointed South Atlantic Division

Engineer in October 1952, I didn't move my family

right away because I didn't believe that after

having two Districts in a row and now a Division

that I would be left alone very long. But by

Christmastime, when they hadn't moved me, I saw

Chief Sam Sturgis in Washington and told him I was

going to move my family up to Atlanta. And he

said, "Sure, you should have already."

297
Chief's office for a meeting between mid- and

late-January and found out Sam Sturgis wanted to

see me. I went in to see him, and he says, "You're

going to Morocco!" So I left my family in Atlanta

and got to Morocco in March or April.

Walsh had been in Morocco I guess about a year when

the Joint Construction Agency (JCA) in Europe was

getting into some kind of problems. So they

transferred him from the Mediterranean Division up

to JCA. There was no full-time Division Engineer

in the Mediterranean Division for a minimum of six

months, maybe longer, but Colonel Carlson was there

and so was [Curtis W.] Curt Chapman. Jack

Campbell, as senior officer in the whole Division,

was acting Division Engineer in addition to his

full-time District Engineer job. Then I arrived.

I got quite a bit of briefing and so on, of course,

before I went. By that stage in life the top

management of the Chief of Engineers' office was

convinced that they weren't going to get control of

the situat ion until they got away from a cost-plusfixed-fee contract on the construction site. Then

they gave me very strong indications that I should

look very hard and see if there wasn't some way to

make such a conversion as promptly as possible.

Basically, they gave me a feeling that look, do it

unless it' s absolutely, positively, definitely not

the right thing to do.

I landed there about a week after a team from OCE.

It quickly became clear that the staff in the

Division, all of whom felt they had been sent over

here on a white charger to straighten everything

out, had very little respect for the District

staff. They didn't trust the contractor, they

didn't like the architect-engineer, they didn't

like the Air Force, and they wouldn't trust the

French Liaison Mission. They knew that they had a

terrible bear by the tail because the cost was

going up. They couldn't get a handle on it, and

they couldn't find out how you control this. On

the other hand, the District felt they had been

handpicked when they came over, and they had come

with George Derby, who was an experienced District

Engineer who had recently been replaced by Jack

298
the early days, 'and they were gun shy.

Instead of being a help, at the moment it really

was a hindrance to have these. two headquarters

there. Remember, on a cost-plus-fixed-fee job, the

contracting officer was the District Engineer, and

the contractor couldn't do lots of things that he

would like to do ’ without getting specific

authority. For instance, they had to have a

terrific supply setup because the contractor could

not say fly me over a bulldozer blade or something

if he ran out of it. He had to get the permission

of the District Engineer, who would have to justify

the cost of flying it versus having thought about

it earlier and shipping it. There were just all kinds of personnel problems. The contractor

couldn't necessarily fire somebody because under

the CPFF thing, the government had an overseeing

responsibility on top of it. So the many, many

normal quick routes to straighten out something

like this weren't easily available. The District

Engineer had to think in these terms: "Now, we are

accused of all this business and mismanagement. If

I make the wrong decision here, who's going to get

hung?" The Division staff in turn were there, and

as long as they're there they had a responsibility,

too. So, it wasn't too good.

I immediately started my staff in making an

analysis as to whether we should convert this from

a cost-plus to a lump-sum-type arrangement, and

they worked on it pretty hard. Colonel Chapman was

spearheading it, and - of course we had some

well-qualified civilians there too, and they worked

on it. But along about the first of May they

reported to me. We had about a whole-day session

while they reported, and they conclusively

demonstrated the impracticability of converting.

It would have to stay CPFF. It was not realistically practical to convert in a situation of this

magnitude. This was a sincere report, so I turned

it around and said, "I surely appreciate it. This

was the finest analysis I have ever heard of this

nature? I said that I was going to leave for a

three weeks' trip to inspect the other areas in the

Mediterranean Division: Tripoli, Eritrea, Saudi

Arabia, and TUSEG. I said, "I'll be gone about

299
yjp, 

pointed out that it could conceivably be a good

idea to go in and try this conversion.

be a way of getting out of our problems.'

This might

This was somewhat of a blow and a shock to the

assembled staff, but by golly I came back and they

had it. Now, I'm sure they weren't convinced yet,

but it did put a different slant on things. After

we talked about it and reviewed it for about two

weeks, I had at least gotten the top element of the

Division to agree with me that there could be

advantages to conversion. So Colonel Chapman and I

went back to Washington about early June. We in

the meantime had tried to figure out how much money

we needed. We spent about three weeks in the

Chief% office and in the Pentagon. We got with

the Chief's office, and they concurred finally that

we should try and convert. Then we had to get

permission from the Secretary of the Army, and all

this took a lot of doing. We had to get a certain

amount of money. I don't remember the exact

amount, but it was up in the millions; and we

needed it right now, you know, to cover our deficit

on the work already under contract. Near the end

of June I picked up my family and took them to New

York, and we rode the transport over to Casablanca.

I got a few days of rest. I came with an authority

to convert if I could convince the contractor that

it was in his best interest as well as ours. And I

had--I've forgotten exactly how much--about 5 to 15

million bucks we had gotten in order to be

solvent. Well, they met me at the gangplank;

Colonel Carlson, Chapman, and others. They took me

aside and said, "We're sorry to tell you, but you

need 10 million more than you brought." "Well," I

said, "who have you told?" And he said, 'Nobody,'

and I said, "Don't. The only one that's going to

know it is you and me and let's try and sort it out

first, before we say anything. I'm not going to

even think about going back, saying we were wrong

by 5 million bucks. At this stage, we may have to,

but we'll never do it now."

So then we went and got into high gear, and we met

with the contractors. I became completely

300
They also felt that their chance--and our best

chance of getting near true management

capabilities --was to convert it, to get off this

cost-plus instead of having a committee rule. We

thought, "Let's give them the responsibility and

let them do it." But then our big problem was how

do you convert a going contract with major work at

five major airfields, plus numerous lesser

facilities scattered around in radar stations and

things like that, all of them under construction,

all of them constructed under cost plus a fixed

fee? We were working around the clock, overtime,

everything you can imagine. Materials were

arriving daily, lots of materials. How do you estimate what to set as a figure on a particular

moment at midnight on the last day of July? Well,

as you can readily see,this is some problem. But

again, I was convinced that the contractor forces

wanted to do it in order to improve the efficiency

and costs of the job.

Q l

l Were most of these contractors American firms, or

were they European?

A *0 Well, the Atlas combine was an American firm.

There were five major contractors from the U.S.

that had combined to form Atlas constructors....

Their management committee was the head man from

each of these five firms, and they were over there

for this purpose. The sponsor was

Morrison-Knudsen. On all these things they always

have a sponsor.

They were scared. They were concerned. They

didn't like what had been going on. They wanted to

try and get it straightened out so it could be a

better job. One that they could get some good

reputation out of instead of a lousy reputation.

But they felt, as did I, that if we could convert,

it might give a handle we could get hold of. I was

convinced personally that the only way to make it a

success was to be darned sure that I succeeded in

allowing enough money in the contract so the

contractor was not going to have initial fiscal

problems. But I felt that I could convince them

that they couldn't keep excess profits because it

was under the wartime renegotiation regulations

required with any cost-plus contract.

301
that we come up with a price which you can live

with, but I'm going to expect you to come back and

hand me money anytime you can because then I can

crank that into additional authorized construction

and that will be a legitimate base on which you

can draw legitimate profit. So I'm going to try

and get you down to a price that I think is

realistic, but I'm sure going to try and see to it

that we don't start off with you in financial

trouble." So these were our two attitudes.

But there were thousands of people working on this

thing and you can't go around telling them all

this. I'm convinced most of the government

employees over there thought I was on somebody's

payroll. They thought I was giving away our

shirt. When we started our negotiations in the

latter part of July, Jack Campbell was the District

Engineer, so he was the contracting officer and had

to run it. We did them day and night, and I mean

day and night. We got very little sleep. All of a

sudden, it dawned on me that Jack was about cracked

physically, and I got concerned about it.

Incidentally, the Chief's office had sent over a

team with Dave Tulley, the new assistant chief of

engineers for military construction, and he was

there with a special representative of the

Secretary of the Army with authority to approve or

disapprove. We had to have this authority on site,

we couldn't fiddle around and go back and forth.

So I talked with them, and they had noticed the

same thing. They were just sitting in listening

all this time. They agreed Jack just couldn't make

it physically so we put him to bed and I took over,

which was not the nicest or easiest thing to try

and do either. But, in order to make a long story

short, the contractor was talking in terms of

$45 million before he even wanted to talk to us

about work--the current contract--and the nearest

figure that I could get out of anybody on our side

was about $21 million.

I had worked hard with Swede [Carlson] and Curt

Chapman and our civilian staff in the Division and

got them up to a figure that was over $20 million.

They didn't like it. They thought it was too high,

302
finally settled on $32 million, and I told the

contractors that I wanted them to know that I

realized this was too high, but I was going to accept it. I said, "I'm going to recommend that we

get approval of the Secretary of the Army because I

think it's the only way we can get going. I'm

convinced you can do the job more efficiently if we

quit having this committee system, and I'm

expecting you to come back in the middle of October

and offer us back some money which can then be

cranked back in because I can assure you, if you

make any excess profits, I'm going to lead the team

that analyzes you and see that we take them away?

* * *

As a result of our conversion to a CPFF posture,

something on the order of 4,000 Americans left

fairly promptly. I can't be sure of these figures,

but there was a tremendous exodus within the first

30 days of conversion. One thousand or more of

them left right away. How could they-do it? Well,

real easy. They no longer maintained this supply

record, as such. They went on a basis of when they

got supplies, here they are, if they're needed on a

job and a guy shows up with proper authority, he

can have it. We won't need anywhere the size staff

we've got here. Furthermore, we'll order in

advance on major things that we know are needed.

On a lot of little odds and ends, we'll wait until

we see if we use up all the stock we have. If we

run out, we'll fly something over. So on that

basis, and that was an honest basis, there was a

terrific exodus of fairly high-priced U.S. help.

NOW the same thing applied to some extent to the

technical side because when you're on a CPFF thing,

you've got yourself, the contractor has himself,

and he's got somebody looking down his throat every

minute so he has to have a good qualified technical

man there watching a good qualified technical man

do the work. And then the architect-engineer is

going to have somebody sit in there too because he

wants to be sure it's done right. Then the

government is going to have somebody sitting there

too. But without these requirements any longer in

effect, the contractor's work force was pared

303
subcontractors he got. 

prime contractor, he could do a lot of this. He

could put native drivers on equipment at his own

risk without us having to be utterly and completely

convinced that they were duly, fully qualified and

all this kind of thing. So there was a major change.

To everyone's amazement --including Dan Teters, the

contractor's top man who had been captured on Wake

Island and [who was] a prisoner all through World

War II, a heck of a fine guy--progress picked up

using fewer people and produced greater profit. By

the middle of September, Jack Bonny and his group

came back for another visit. He came in to see me

and said, "I've got $5 million I want to return to

you right now." This was after 45 days, and I

said, "Jack, I appreciate that because I think it

ought to be about 15. I've been watching, but I'll

take the 5, and I'll say no more because I'll

expect to see you again in the middle of October."

And that's the way it worked. We renegotiated

those lump-sum figures we had originally

established about three times over the next three

or four months. Authorized additional work was

added on a much more realistic cost basis to the

contract. We had a big renegotiation along about

the middle of November.. We nearly had a parting of

the ways.

The contractor had established Lyman Wilbur over

there in addition to Dan Teters. Dan Teters was

resident manager, but Lyman Wilbur was the resident

partner. Lyman's job at this stage really was to

keep track of this business and get ready for

negotiations. About the middle of November they

came back with their management committee--Mills

and Teters, someone from J.A. Jones, I believe, all

of them. We had a long negotiation. It was

supposed to last about a day. It started about

Sunday. Lyman Wilbur had analyzed every single

operation. It was a pile of material about a foot

thick in about two or three volumes. I had gone

over it myself personally, and I couldn't find a

single place that I could quarrel with. It was a

beautiful job. He's an outstanding estimator, but

he also is a complete perfectionist. He estimated

304
all together, 

I knew it was too high.

Now the best way we could figure these estimates was to figure how many people would be required for

each feature and that was the real key to figuring

what the cost would be. So they put these books of

the estimate there, and we discussed it. There

were 15 to 20 people sitting around the table, and

I kept trying to find fault with little items here

and little items there and my people did and

studied it pretty thoroughly. We weren't getting

anywhere, and I finally said to Jack Bonny, "I

would appreciate very much if you would go back to

your office now and read this thing." Well, he

said he would. This went on twice, through Monday

and Tuesday. Finally Wednesday morning he came in

and sat down at the table and he said, "Well now,

we decided to let Lyman be our spokesman this

morning, so what he says goes." I said, "Fine."

And Lyman put his hand on these big books and says, "This is it. Take it or leave it." And I said,

"Well, Lyman, since I have been told that you are

the spokesman, I appreciate what you're saying.

It's been nice working with you and your people. I

have a lot of respect for you, but that concludes

the negotiations. We'll hire a new contractor."

This caused a certain amount of excitement, and

Jack Bonny spoke up promptly and said, "Wait a

minute, wait a minute, let's don't be hasty now.

We'd like to have a little chance to get together a

little more yet before you take a step like that."

And I said, "Jack, you can have as long as you

want, but you told me he was the spokesman, and he

just told me that.s it-take it or leave it, and I

leave it. We don't want to change contractors in

midstream but we sure will." And he said, "Well,

let's have a little break." So right after lunch

he came back, and he said: "I'm sorry. I've now

spent three hours going through that book in

detail; and I haven't finished it, but I now see

what you were trying to tell me all the time. I

talked with Lyman, and I know what you were talking

about. If you'll give us till tomorrow morning,

I'll come back. Why don't you and I sit down and

estimate this thing?" I said, "all right, we can

do it as well as anybody else can. it's just a

305
through page after page. I

d say, Well, I think

that% too many people in this job and that job and

this thing." He'd say I 'All right, I accept

that." So we just arbitrarily cut them, and we got

clear through. We had made a heck of a cut. I

said, "Jack, I'm sorry. I'm not satisfied.' He

said, "You mean you still want to take more cuts?"

I said, "No. I'm scared we've cut too much. I

want to go back and put a little bit back in 'cause

I don't want you to be hurt right at the start and

get a discouraged job. I want a good job."

SO we went back and added a little bit back in and

agreed on a total which was a tremendous change

from what had been presented. Then we got the

group back together and met, and they accepted

this. And I said, 'Now, just for the record, this

is a pretty good price. I'm proud of it, but

there's still more in it than is necessary, so

there's going to be an opportunity for the

contractor to bring some more back." If I remember

correctly, they did.

But that's the system. That's the way it worked.

It worked primarily 'cause of the basic difference

between the two systems--under cost plus a fixed

fee, the government agent is a partner. He has to

approve every decision. For various good reasons,

good reasons for controlling materials and not

letting them get lost and so on, and then

protecting the government's interests and so on.

There's a very extensive logistical system which

takes a lot of people to make it work. When you

get a lot of people to make it work, particularly

in a foreign area, you then have more workers and

that means you got to have more camp support. You

may ask why do you ever go to a cost plus? You go

to a cost plus because you don't have your plans

ready, you don't have your materials available.

YOU want to keep working while you're developing

these plans and getting the materials and so you

can't do anything else. So you’re forced into it.

But once it's stable, once you know what you really

want, once you've got your plans in pretty good

shape, it's sure cheaper, in my private opinion,

with a good honest contractor, to give him the

responsibility with the government inspecting and

306
q, y

government side materially also. Again, that's

what happened with us.

In November 1954, East Atlantic District was

consolidated with the Mediterranean Division, and

we moved out to Nouasseur. That's just about the

time I'm talking about that latter negotiation.

The first thing we did, we phased out the

architect-engineer contract to a major extent and

hired some of his people on the government staff.

We kept only one engineering organization. It

belonged to the District, which reduced

duplication. By then, we gradually melded the

Division and the District into one, and we had a

very small element of the Division that concerned

itself with the Middle East District. At that

stage it was still--well, I guess by that time,

TUSEG had been taken away from us, that's right, it

had. So basically, everybody in the Division

office was also in essence doing the extra job that

the District had had, but there was a small group

of programmers, engineering review, construction

supervision that tried to stand a little bit above

the Moroccan scene and do normal Division functions

in the Middle East District as well as kind of an

overall overview of what was going on in Morocco.

But that in itself resulted in a tremendous saving

of bodies. I think it was well worth it.

Now again, I'm utterly convinced we couldn't have

changed the government's side materially until we

got the contractor's side reduced in size. We

couldn't have done that unless we had converted the

contract to a lump sum and fixed price. We

couldn't have done that without a cooperative,

honest contractor that wanted to make the job work

out well. He was more concerned with that than

getting an extra nickel. He wanted to get his

profit, don't get me wrong. He was entitled to his

profit. But he was also concerned if there was a

question of doubt as to whether something was

legitimate or not. I don't mean legitimate but

whether it should be charged off against theirprofit or whether it was a real cost. He would

accept my judgment right off the bat. He'd say, " OK , if you don't think that belongs in our cost,

307
Now, as I told you a while ago, I'm convinced that

most government employees and many of the military

personnel felt I was on somebody's payroll or

getting a payoff or something to begin with. I

mean even the way they looked at me, I could see

it. But within six months, we had a happy

situation. Our effort could be devoted to doing

the job l technically well rather than to going

around putting out fires and trying to stop them.

We still had problems. The Air Force was still

gunning for us. I kept talking to the Air Force

command in Morocco. I had to report to him. He

was the senior military person over there. He'd

pick up a rumor from some place and immediately go

to the Pentagon with it, to the Air Force. And the

Air Force would blow it up there and go to the

Chief's office, and the next thing you know here we

have a full-blown conflict. They were not the

smartest people in the world though, because, as I

kept telling the man, I said, "If you think you've

got something that we're not doing right and you

want to ask about it, call me. Or, I'll come up

and see you and tell you because everything you‘ve

picked on so far, you're absolutely wrong, and I've

been able to convince people that

incorrect and so it's just taking

on our part." Just between you

gatepost, there were things that

caught us on with no question.

working out of all this, but at

your rumors were

time and effort

and me and the

they could have

We were slow

the end of six

months, I wasn't concerned with anything. I told

the Chief's office, "You can send any investigators

you want now because we're ready. We're in solid

shape.'

As a matter of fact, one of the reasons that we

were able to get by without that extra money that I

mentioned way back was that by thorough analyses,

we found over million worth of

equipment $5 --materials that had been put into camp

facilities and other things which were

supportive--and we went around and earmarked things

that were in the camp facilities that would

ultimately no longer be required in those places

308
they had told me that we were short when I

returned. I wouldn't say no one was stealing in a

foreign country with light-fingered people. Sure

there were things that disappeared, but the bulk of

this was strictly a case of getting the job done

and somebody in the system missed a point.

There were things like generators, kitchen

equipment, major things, that we had used in some

of the facilities built to house contractor

personnel that were ultimately converted for use by

the Air Force personnel, which was their real

purpose. I do know that they did the same thing up

in Greenland at a later date, a whole year or so later. They came over and got with us to find out

how we handled it, and I think it paid off up in

Greenland too. But I'm completely convinced we did

the right thing.

I'm not trying to say that we were any smarter or

any more astute or any better technically or

anything else than the people that were there

before us because we had been forced to get going

before we were ready. We'd have had the same

problems. You can't help but use a cost-plus kind

of contract in the early days of some activity when

there isn't sufficient time and means to get the

thing done in the normal manner. I've found this

out on quite a few cost-plus jobs in my life, and

yet I can't fault the fact that under the political

and international circumstances that have existed

in each case, a cost-plus job was essential in the

early stages in order to get going.

- I . .,

Q m

0 Did you have any direct relationship with foreign

governments? Did you have to worry about that side

of it as well?

A 0l Yes , to a degree. We worked it through the consuls

primarily. But like in Morocco there was an

organization called the French Liaison Mission that

represented the French and, yes, they were very

positively a part of this. All of our real estate

dealings had to be through them. We had radar

stations and communication systems that were

scattered around. All that stuff had to be done

309
had to be worked through them, getting their

complete approval. We hired foreign nationals to

some extent going down the line. And those all had

to be approved by the French Liaison Mission. We

were involved with the French resident general, who

was really governing Morocco, and there was a

sultan. But the Frenchman was above the sultan.

The French Liaison Mission reported to the resident

general and the French government in Paris. The

French Liaison Mission was headed by a colonel-type

from the French Engineers, and they had a staff and

they reviewed all these things.

Now the same thing was true in Tripoli. The Middle

East District primarily did the work there because

our Division personnel weren't there very often.

The same thing was true in Eritrea where I had to

go down and call on the emperor of Ethiopia on a

visit to Eritrea because it was a province of

Ethiopia. I've called on Saudi Arabian rulers at

management level to some extent. I didn't do any

more than I had to. In Turkey the same thing. I

paid courtesy calls on the Turkish government

whenever I'd go over there, and our TUSEG group had

to work very closely with them because what you

could do and what they wanted done and where you

could do it and how you could do it and how you

could get people out of jail--all those kinds of

things were very definitely worked out with the

Turkish government with occasional assistance from

our U.S. embassy staff.

Now we had a problem with money. We had what we

called "funny money" or scrip. There was no U.S.

money in Morocco itself. The Air Force had it

too. This was a logical thing. Gradually over a

period of time the scrip began to take on real

value, and then gamblers got on to it and so on and

so forth. So every so often they just closed down

and collected all the scrip and replaced it with a

new issue. That gets you into contact with the

foreign government and the Air Force and the

customs people and every other thing you can

imagine.

I had a very interesting situation. I had a

provost marshal working with the Air Force, and he

310
seized somewhere between $8,000 and $15,000 worth

of scrip that was being used in the, card game. Now

the contractor types were not permitted to use

scrip and hence deal with the military types. It

was an interesting situation but this was very much

verboten, and we tried to break them up as much as

we could and here we picked up this guy. Here was

his money that was seized for evidence. All at

once, one day, we get word. The gates are closed.

Turn in your funny money. Now that meant my

family, who were still living in Casablanca. I was

at Nouasseur. They had some scrip, not much, but

they had French money too to spend in the local

community, but I had to estimate how much money

they had at home and put it down and get it as

quickly as I could and trade it.

Out at the airbase where the construction was going

on, the contractor personnel were paid in Moroccan

francs, but it suddenly dawned on me that we had

this man's money in the safe. He was in jail some

place. It dawned on me that come tomorrow that

money will be good evidence, but it wouldn't be

worth a nickel. So I got in touch with the provost

marshal, and he was very happy. He said, "Well, we

won't even have to find him guilty. We'll just

forget it." I said, "No, you're not. We've got to do something about it." So, much to his disgust,

he had to arrange to get all that money marked and

take it to the finance people and get us, in

essence, a check from them for that amount of

money, and all the certifications you had to put on

so that you could hold the check good at a later

date once the case was taken care of. But this

again would involve the French. In other countries

they had some of the same problems, although it

wasn't as much in some of the other places. There

just wasn't that much use of scrip. We had the

U.S. consul in Morocco, and socially we had to

maintain good relations. I told you earlier about

these people that had problems from an accident

that fortunately wasn't their fault. But that kind

of problem could arise all the time. When you had

all those things to worry about and you had to deal

with them and you picked up any native people with

any suspicion of anything, you had to turn them

over to the local authorities for trials.

311
result was outstanding. We beat ourselves over the

head with a hammer in order to make it feel so good

when we stopped. But we had a program of testing

all the pavements--airfield pavements--with heavy

rollers. The heaviest I'd ever seen at that time.

In all truth we rolled them so long that we should

have taken useful life away from the pavement. But

if there was any giving in that pavement, we tore

it out and did it over again. We did it far beyond

my personal feeling of how far we should go, but

the experts all said this is what you've got to do,

and so it was done. People would stay out there in

that hot damn sun and sit and look. I've sat and

done it for hours, and it got to where I could see

the pavement moving up and down whether it moved or

not. But anyhow, this was done. The work was all

corrected. It cost something, but ultimately we've

turned it back to the Moroccans. The quality of

the work, well it improved. Rapidity of work

improved. The cost of the work dropped. The

materials could be a problem. There had been a

change in what was going to be built. To start

with, everything was going to be lumber, the

barracks and everything. So all this terrific load

of lumber--my God, we had a lumber pile that was

out of this world!

Q .

l Were decisions like that made in the Office of the

Chief of Engineers or were they made by the

contractors?

A l

. Those made basically as a program thing would come

out of the Air Force headquarters and the Chief's

office. The initial decision to make lumber frame

barracks and so on was accepted by the Air Force,

but then they decided that it wasn't the best thing

later on. But all this lumber had been ordered.

Here we were. We had one hell of a lot of lumber.

And we got some prefabricated huts that we were

worried about, and we tried worldwide. We shipped

some of that stuff all over. Then we had a lot of

our own equipment that gradually was working itself

out of a job. The amount of heavy equipment could

not be planned and executed truly economically

because all five airfields were required at the

same moment. S O you had to buy equipment to build

five airfields.

312
Q l

l

store it. And it costs money to store it. And if

you don't store it properly, it goes bad. There

was a pretty good little expense involved in that.

Now, as far away as we were from the U.S., in Atlas

we had a very fine

fortunately for us, the

big program in Spain.

and get us off the hook

couldn't get equipment.

as quickly as we could

rebuild capability and

Air Force decided on this

They weren't about to try

down in Morocco. But they

They couldn't get supplies

furnish them, so we turned

into quite a wholesaler. They had a mission to

come down and pick the equipment they wanted. And

we put it through the rebuild shops and sent them

outstanding rebuilt equipment. Of course, it was

all Air Force money, so this was a help to the Air

Force. It was a help to U.S. funds.

I got nothing but compliments out of the people in

the Navy that were doing the construction in Spain,

and they were kind of afraid we'd slip them all the

dogs. But it was done, and we insisted that they

have inspectors right in the Atlas plant so they

could make up their mind on each piece. Whether

you replaced or repaired it or rebuilt parts, that

was a decision of the future owner standing right

there. And it was going to cost him one way or

another. They also took most of the lumber off our

hands. They could use it, and it was the quickest

place they could get it.

So this all went into this recovery of the five

million bucks I talked about. This all was a

saving to construction funds in Morocco. It could

go into more work because there were lots of

things, as these years went by, the Air Force

wanted added to expand their program. And this is

one of the ways of getting the money to do it. But

there were all kinds of things that moved up

there. Also there were military activities in

Europe, came down with shopping lists and got

equipment and suppl ies at somewhat of a reduced

rate and of course i t was a saving to our funds not

letting them sit out there.

How were decisions made between whether or not it

would be the Corps that actually did the

construction?

313
g

p

Defense. When I went back to get this extra money

and so on, and when I went back to get authority to

go to this conversion, I had to sell it not only to

the Secretary of the Army but up at the defense

level also. The Chief's office would want the job,

and the Navy would want the job. So DOD made the

decision.

Q 0

l When was the complete headquarters moved to Livorno?

A l

l I was deputy chief of engineers at the time MED

Division moved to Livorno and had helped get

approval for them to do this. I lived the first

six months in Casablanca. Then to save money and

reduce the size of everything and to get it to

where I could get people together after this

conversion sometime that fall of 1953, I moved our

Division office into the District's office building

in Nouasseur when so many people had been sent home

that there was office space available. Then my

family moved out and lived in one of the

construction quarters there and got out of town.

And then of course by 1957 they reestablished the

District in Morocco in order to leave the Division

free to move to Italy. .

Q l

a Do you have any concluding remarks?

A a0 1 can't overimpress you with the fact that it was

an extremely unhappy job when I got there. Not due

to me, but just the way the changes took place;

after about six months or so, it was probably the

most pleasant assignment I've ever had. It was far

enough away from the throne not to be looked at

every minute. People were cooperative, friendly,

and everybody worked together to get the job done.

There was very little, after the six months or a

year, there was very little real nasty bickering as

between the government's side and the contractor's

side or between one office and another or between

the Army and the Air Force. It was a happy, pleasant feeling, and frankly that's the way to get

things done.

314
[The rank given in the notes is the highest rank

attained. Career assignments are a representative

sample and are not meant to be complete: For further

information on West Point graduates, see the Register

of Graduates and Former Cadets, United States Military

Academy, published annually by the Association of

Graduates.]

1 l

2. .

3 .

4 .

5 l

6 l

The interviewee's father, MG Walter K. Wilson, Sr.

(1880-1954), graduated from the USMA in 1902 with a

commission in the Artillery Corps. He served on

the War Department General Staff (1917-1919), as an

executive officer at West Point (1929-1935), and as

Commander, Western Defense Command (1940-1942).

After retiring in 1944, he immediately returned to

active duty as Director of Army Emergency Relief, a

position he held until his "second" retirement in

19510

Geronimo (1829-1909) was an Apache warrior who led

raiding parties to protest the forced removal of

his tribe from their Arizona reservation. Captured

in March 1886, Geronimo and his followers finally

ended up at Fort Sill as prisoners of war.

In military slang, "Manchu law" refers to a law or

regulation designed to require active service with

troops and to prohibit lengthy assignments to

desirable positions or locations.

LTC John N. Wilson (1913-1944), the interviewee's

brother, graduated from the USMA in 1935 with a

commission in the Field Artillery. He commanded

the 219th Field Artillery Battalion of the 35th

Division and was killed in Normandy in July 1944.

William L. LaFollette (1860-1934) served as a

Republican in the House of Representatives

(1911-1919). Robert M. LaFollette (1855-1925) was

governor of Wisconsin (1901-1906), U.S. senator

from Wisconsin (1906-1925), and an unsuccessful

candidate for President in 1924.

COL Charles Keller, Jr. (b. 1908) graduated from

the USMA in 1930. He commanded the 1135th Engineer

Combat Group, Third Army, European theater of

315
in 1890.

7 . Because of a shortage of men needed to garrison its

stations both in the United States and overseas,

the Coast Artillery Corps placed Fort Rosecrans in

a caretaker status in 1922. The 28th and 115th

Companies of the Corps were stationed there at the

time Wilson, Senior, took command.

8 . Fort Ruger is located on the slopes of Diamond Head

on the island of Oahu.

9. Established in 1908, 25 miles from Honolulu,

Schofield Barracks served as an Army training camp

and was the site of an officer candidate school.

10 l The reference is to Wilson's classmate, COL Horace

F Sykes, Jr.

Canal Zone

(b. 1907), who served in the Panama

(1939-1943); in General Headquarters,

Far East Command (1945-1948); and as a member of

the National Munitions Board (1949-1952).

11 . LTC Walter K. Wilson III (b. 1937) graduated from

the USMA in 1960 with a commission in the

Infantry. He later transferred to the Corps of

Engineers. He served with the Military Assistance

Advisory Group in China (1967-1969), and was on the

faculty of the engineering department at the USMA

(1971-1975) before moving to Louisville Engineer

District as deputy district engineer (1975-1978).

Since 1980 he has been the Engineer at the 21st

Support Command installation in Manheim, Germany.

12 . LTC James T. Barber (b. 1904) entered the Coast

Artillery Corps upon graduation.

13 . The reference is to GEN Omar N. Bradley

(1893-1981), a classmate of Eisenhower, who

graduated from the USMA in 1915. During World War

II Bradley commanded II Corps in Tunisia and

Sicily, and the First Army and 12th Army Group in

the ETO. He went on to become Chief of Staff, U.S.

Army (1948-1949), and Chairman, Joint Chiefs of

Staff, U.S. Army (1949-1953).

14 . MG Edmund C.R. Lasher (b. 1906) served in the

Office of the Quartermaster General (1939-1942),

316
School (1952-1954). He retired in 1958.

15 l COL James J. Winn (b. 1907) served as Commander of

the 955th Field Artillery Battalion in the ETO

(194471945) and as a member of the Korean Military

Advisory Group (1953-1954) before retiring in 1959.

16 . MG Frank D. Merrill (1903-1955) commanded

"Merrill's Marauders," a composite unit of 3,000

volunteers that infiltrated enemy lines in Burma

and won all of their 5 major and 30 minor

engagements in 1944. After the war Merrill served

as Chief of Staff, Tenth and Sixth Armies before

retiring in 1948. He was Commissioner of Public

Works and Highways for the state of New Hampshire

from 1949 until his death.

17 . As an infantry officer, COL Charles N. Hunter

(1906-1978) commanded the 5307th Composite Unit in

the 'China-Burma-India theater. Later he served on

the faculty of the Armed Services Staff College

(1951-1954). He retired in 1959.

18 l GEN Frederick H. Smith, Jr. (1908-1980) became

Commander in Chief, U.S. Air Force, Europe

(1959-1961), and Vice Chief of Staff, U.S. Air

Force (1961-1962).

19 . LTG James M. Gavin (b. 1907) commanded the 82d

Airborne Division (1942-1948) and was Commanding

General of VII Corps, Europe (1952-1954). After

retiring in 1958, he served as ambassador to France

(1961-1962). GEN Paul D. Harkins (b. 1904) was

Commandant of Cadets at West Point (1948-1951) and

served as Commanding General, Military Assistance

Command, Vietnam, and Military Assistance Command,

Thailand, for his last two years on active duty

(1962-1964). GEN William F. McKee (b. 1906) held

several key staff positions in the Air Force before

becoming Vice Chief of Staff in 1962. He served in

that post until his retirement in 1964. MG Robert

W Ward (b.

Mediterranean

1905) served in Europe and the

during World War II. His last

assignment was as Chief of Staff at Headquarters,

Allied Forces Southern Europe (1960-1962). MG

Alvin G. Viney (1905-1962) was Deputy Commanding

Officer and Chief of Staff in the Advanced Section,

ETO Communications Zone (1944-1945), 7th Army

317
()

() 

several positions in OCE

Chief, Military

(1941-1943), including Construction Branch. He then

served in the ETO and was Commander of the Military

Pipeline Service and Deputy Chief Engineer of the

theater (1944-1946). After the war he was

Louisville District Engineer (1948-1950) and Ohio

River Division Engineer (1954-1956). He completed

his career as Acting Assistant Chief and then

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil Works

(1956-1959). GEN Paul L. Freeman, Jr. (b. 1907)

became Commandant of the Infantry School and

Commanding General, The Infantry Center

(1958-1960), and was Commanding General,

Continental Army Command (1965-1967).

20 . BG George A. Lincoln (1907-1975) served as

professor of social sciences, USMA (1947-1969) and

as chairman of the department (1954-1969). After 

retiring in 1969, he headed the Office of Emergency

Preparedness until 1973. His younger brother, LTG

Lawrence J. Lincoln (b. 1909), graduated from the

USMA in 1933 and was known as 'Little Abe." But

George Lincoln was actually smaller than his

brother, hence, Wilson's observations about the

elder brother: "'Big Abe' we called him, although

he was 'little Abe.'"

21 l BG William A. Mitchell (1878-1941) graduated from

the USMA in 1902 and served as assistant professor

(1907-1911) and professor (1922-1938) in the

Engineering Department at the USMA.

22 . COL Gerald E. Williams (d. 1949) graduated from the

USMA in 1931. He commanded the 391st Bombardment

Bomber Group in the European theater (194301945).

23 . COL William D.A. Anderson (d. 1934) graduated from

the USMA in 1904 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He was Assistant Commandant and

Commandant of the Engineer School (1924-1928) and

District Engineer, Mobile (1928-1932).

24 l COL Benjamin C. Fowlkes, Jr. (1903-1978) graduated

from the USMA in 1925. He was Commanding Officer,

Granite City Engineer Department (1950-1952), and

Commander, 7th Engineer Aviation Brigade

(1952-1955).

318
Fort Belvoir (1961

1962); and Chief, Office of

Personnel Operations, Department of the Army

(1962-1964).

26 l MG Campbell King (1871-1953) graduated from

Charleston College and later from the Infantry and

Cavalry School in 1905. He retired in 1933

following his last assignment as Commandant, Fort

Benning.

27 l MG William A. Carter, Jr. (b. 1907), graduated from

the USMA in 1930. He was Engineer, First Army, ETO

(1944-1945); and Governor of the Canal Zone and

President of the Panama Canal Company (1960-1962).

28 . BG Bruce D. Rindlaub (1904-1959) graduated one file

behind Wilson in the class of 1929. During World

War II he served in Headquarters, Services of

supply (1944) and as Engineer at the New Guinea

Base Section, Southwest Pacific Area (1944-1945).

He was Engineer of Far East Command general

headquarters (1945-1949); commanded the 7th

Engineer Brigade, U.S. Army Europe (1956-1958); and

served his last assignment as Commanding General,

U.S. Army Engineer Maintenance Center (1958-1959).

29 . CAPT Francis E. Cothran (b. 1898) graduated from

the USMA in 1922. After serving with the 11th

Engineers in the Canal Zone (1923-1926), he was

detailed briefly to the Air Corps (1926-1927) and

later served in the St. Paul and Galveston

Districts (1934-1936). His last assignment before

retiring in 1939 was as Company Commander, 6th

Engineers, at Fort Lawton, Washington.

30 l Established in March 1933 as a New Deal work relief

agency, the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC)

provided jobs (for males between the ages of 18 and

25) in reforestation, road construction, soil

erosion prevention, and national park and flood

control projects. Engineer officers served as

project directors.

31 l In 1930 the Corps of Engineers established a

hydraulics laboratory--the Waterways Experiment

Station--at Vicksburg, Mississippi. LT Herbert D.

Vogel was the first director. Initially the

station constructed a model of the Illinois River

319
reproduced 600 miles of the lower Mississippi

River. The practice of assigning young lieutenants

to the Experiment Station for the period between

graduate study and assignment to the Engineer

School at Fort Belvoir began in the summer of 1931.

32 l GEN William C. Westmoreland (b. 1914) became

Superintendent of the USMA (1960-1963); Commander

of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam

(1964-1968); and Chief of Staff, U.S. Army

(1968-1972). GEN John L. Throckmorton (b. 1913)

served as Deputy Commander under Westmoreland in

Vietnam (1964-1965), Commanding General of Third

Army (1967-1969), and Commanding General of Strike

Command (1969-1973). LTG Frederick J. Clarke (b.

1915) served as Chief of Engineers (1969-1973).

GEN Creighton W. Abrams, Jr. (1914-1974), succeeded

Westmoreland as Commander of the Military

Assistance Command, Vietnam (1968-1972), and as

Chief of Staff, U.S. Army (1972-1974).

33 . GEN Andrew J. Goodpaster (b. 1915) graduated from

the USMA in 1939. He served as Supreme Allied

Commander, Europe (1969-1974); retired in 1974; and

returned to active duty as Superintendent of the

USMA (1977-1981).

34 l The text was Design of Concrete Structures by

Leonard C. Urquhart and Charles E. O'Rourk irst

published in 1923.

35 l In June 1935 the Corps of Engineers began

constructing the Passamaquody Tidal Power Project

on Cobscook Bay near Eastport, Maine, with an

initial allotment of $10 million in federal

emergency relief funds. From its inception the

project suffered not only because of its dual

work-relief/hydroelectric power nature but also

because of the tremendous engineering and

administrative problems and escalating costs. The

next year Congress blocked further emergency relief

funds for "Quoddy" and for the Cross-Florida Canal,

another work-relief project undertaken by the

Corps. When the Corps began demobilization at

Quoddy in July 1936, only three small dams and

limited excavation for the powerhouse were

complete. The research on the region's special

320
involvement at Quoddy.

36 l Charles E. Wuerple (b. 1906) 'was a civilian

engineer with the Corps of Engineers (1929-1948).

His last assignment before leaving the Corps in

1948 to become technical director of the Marquette

Cement Manufacturing Company in Chicago was as

Chief of the Concrete Research Division, Corps of

Engineers. He lectured widely on concrete

technology, including at the USMA (1938-1941).

37 . After its founding in 1881 as the School of

Application for Infantry and Cavalry, the Command

and General Staff School at Fort Leavenworth,

Kansas, went through several reorganizations.

Courses fluctuated from one to two years. in length

depending on the demand for graduates. Between the

wars, the school graduated nearly 4,500 officers

from the Regular Army National Guard, and

Reserves. The school's mission was to provide

instruction that would prepare officers for duty in

staff and command positions and, given lessons

learned and recent developments, to ensure

improvement in such areas as intelligence, tactics

and logistics, and the employment of field forces.

After World War II, the school became known as the

Command and General Staff College.

38 . GEN Thomas D. White (1901-1965) graduated from the

USMA in 1920 and served as Chief of Staff, U.S. Air

Force, from 1957 until his retirement in 1961.

39 . BG James W. Green, Jr. (b. 1906) was Commandant of

the Radar School (1942-1944) and served in the

Southwest Pacific as Chief Signal Officer, Services

of supply; and as Chief Signal Officer, U.S. Air

Force, West Pacific (1944-1946). He was a

professor of electricity at the USMA (1947-1957).

40 . MG Paul F. Yount (b. 1908) graduated from the USMA

in 1930. He served in CBI theater in World War II;

and was Commanding General, 2d Logistics Command,

Yokohama and Pusan (1950-1951); and Chief,

Transportation Corps (1954-1958).

41 . GEN Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1964) graduated from

the USMA in 1915.

(1918-1919).

He served in the Tank Corps

During World War II he was Commanding

321
served as Chief of Staff, U.S. Army (1945-1948),

and as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe

(1950-1952). He resigned from the Army in the

summer of 1952 and served as President of the

United States from 1953-1961.

42 l GEN George S. Patton, Jr. (1885-1945), graduated from the USMA in 1909. He held three major

commands during World War II: II Corps in North

Africa (1942), Seventh Army in Sicily (1943), and

Third Army in Europe (1944-1945).

43 . The maneuver, which involved several river

crossings, has been described as a "battle of

engineers" and the "battle of bridges.' Poor

reconnaissance and a shortage of engineers hampered

the exercise, Post-maneuver training attempted to

correct these problems, but the need for engineers

in combat became clear.

44 l Engineer amphibious troops were training at

Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, and Washburn Island

in New England and also at Camp Blanding, Florida.

Several schools, including an advanced officer

school and a welding and propeller school, were

located on Cape Cod.

45 . MG Jonathan W. Anderson (b. 1890) graduated from

the U.S. Naval Academy in 1911. The following year

he took a commission in the Field Artillery. He

served in the War Plans Division before joining the

3d Infantry and becoming Commanding General,

Amphibious Corps, Atlantic Fleet.

46 l LTC Albert 0. Connor (b. 1914) graduated from the

USMA in 1937. He served in Italy as G-3 for the 3d

Division (1943-1944) and for VI Corps (1944-1945).

Among his later assignments were Secretary of

Staff, Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers Europe

(1962-1964); Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel,

Department of the Army (1967-1969); and Commanding

General, Third Army (1969-1972).

47 . Located on the west coast of Morocco, Fedala was to

be the location of the main amphibious attack in

the Allied effort to liberate Casablanca as part of

the TORCH operation.

322
,

49 .

50 l

51 .

52 .

53 .

individualized basic training before joining their

units. Engineer troops attended a 12-week course.

The first Engineer Replacement Training Center,

located at Fort Belvoir, opened in March.

MG Harry J. Malony (1889-1971) graduated from the

USMA in 1912. After serving as Commander of the

94th Infantry Division (1942-1945) and as commander

of the International Forces in Greece for a year,

General Malony finished his active duty career on

the Special Staff, U.S. Army.

MG Keith

USMA in

Engineer

served as

COL John

USMA in

Corps of -

R Barney (1904-1977) graduated from the

1926 He later

Combat Group in

commanded the 1120th

the ETO (1943-1945) and

Deputy Chief of Engineers (1960-1962).

B Hughes (1896-1973) graduated from the

November 1918 with a commission in the

Engineers. He served as Engineer, Army

Ground Forces (1942-1945) and as Director of

Training, ETO (1945-1946). He retired in 1948.

GEN Albert C. Wedemeyer (b. 1896) graduated from

the USMA in 1919 with a commission in the

Infantry. He was Deputy Chief of Staff, Southeast

Asia Command (1944); Commanding General, U.S.

Forces, China (1945-1946); Director of the Plans

and Operations Division, General Staff, U.S. Army

(1947-1949); and Commanding General, Sixth Army

(1949-1951).

At the Quadrant Conference in Quebec in August

1943, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister

Churchill, and their chiefs of staff considered a

plan for the combined defeat of Japan. Crucial to

the success of such an operation was the recapture

of Burma in order to reestablish a line of

communications from Rangoon and to keep China in

the war as an ally. Planners sought to defeat

Japan by assault on the Central Pacific islands

combined with developing bases in north China from

which air assaults could be made easily on Japan.

One result of the conference was the establishment

of a new Southeast Asia Command with Vice Admiral

Louis Mountbatten (1900-1980) as Supreme Commander,

Southeast Asia. Lord Mountbatten was the son of

Queen Victoria's granddaughter, had risen through

323
Chiefs of Staff Committee (194201943). He served

as Supreme Allied Commander, Southeast Asia Command

(194301946).

54 . MG Desmond Harrison (b. 1896) was educated at the

Royal Military Academy at Woolwich and at Cambridge

University. He was Engineer in Chief, Southeast

Asia Command, under Lord Mountbatten. After the

war he served as Director of Fortifications and

Works in the British War Office until his

retirement in 1947.

55 . LTG Raymond A. "Speck" Wheeler (1885-1974)

graduated from the USMA in 1911. He participated

in the Vera Cruz Expedition (1914) and was chief of

the Persian Gulf Mission (1941-1942). In 1942 he

was promoted to major general and served as

Commanding General, CBI (1942-1944); and Deputy

Supreme Commander, Southeast Asia Command

(1944-1945). At the end of the war Wheeler became

Chief of Engineers and held that position until his

retirement in 1949. He was one of three officers

who served in CBI and later became Chiefs of

Engineers. The others were his successor, LTG

Lewis A. Pick, and the subject of this interview,

LTG Walter K. Wilson, Jr.

56 . GEN Joseph W. Stilwell (1883-1946) graduated from

the USMA in 1904 with a commission in the

Infantry. In Europe during World War I he

participated in several engagements, including St.

Mihiel. After the war he studied Chinese, and in

1920 went to Peking as a language student,, staying

until 1923. Stilwell served with the American

forces in China (1926-1929) and was military

attache at the U.S. embassy in Peiping

(1935-1939). In March 1942 he became commander of

U.S. Army Forces in CBI and commander of the Fifth

and Sixth Chinese Armies. Later he was Chief of

Staff to Chiang Kai-shek and Deputy Supreme Allied

Commander, Southeast Asia Command. He returned to

the U.S. in November 1944. His last assignment was

as Commanding General, Sixth Army.

57 . Prince Philip (b. 1921), whose mother was the

sister of Lord Louis Mountbatten, married Princess

Elizabeth, later Queen Elizabeth II.

324
Belgium during World War I. He was Deputy

Assistant Adjutant General, China Command

(1936-1940); Deputy Adjutant and Quartermaster

General, Southeast Asia Command (1944-1945); and

headed Lord Mountbatten's liaison staff in ’

Australia (1946).

59 . COL Craig Smyser (b. 1911) graduated from the USMA

in 1934 with a commission in the Field Artillery.

He later transferred to the Corps of Engineers. He

served as Executive Officer and Deputy Chief of

Staff, Services of Supply, CBI (1945-1946);

Executive Officer, OCE (1949-1952); and Engineer,

Canal Zone, from 1952 until his retirement in 1954.

60 . MG Thomas F. Farrell (b. 1891) graduated from

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in 1912. In the

fall of 1918 he served with the 1st Engineers of

the American Expeditionary Force in France.

General Farrell resigned- from the Regular Army in

January 1926 and entered the Engineer reserves the

following month. He was in charge of construction and engineering for the New York State Department

of Public Works (1930-1942). In February 1941,

Farrell returned to active duty. He reported to

CBI in November 1943 as Chief Engineer at

Headquarters, Services of Supply, and as Commanding

General of the Construction Service. After

returning to the United States in early 1945,

Farrell became Deputy Commanding General of the

Manhattan Engineer District. He retired from

active duty in April 1946.

61 . LTG Daniel I. Sultan (1886-1947) graduated from the

USMA in 1907 and joined the Corps of Engineers.

Sultan served in Corregidor constructing

fortifications (1916-1918) and worked on the

Nicaragua Canal Survey (1929-1931). He was the

Commanding General, U.S. Forces, CBI (1944-1945);

and was Inspector General, U.S. Army (1945-1947).

62 . MG Alvin C. Welling (b. 1910) graduated from the

USMA in 1933. He received a master's degree in

civil engineering from MIT in 1938 and served as

Section Executive Officer on the Alcan Highway

(1942-1943). Welling was Chief Engineer

(1944-1945) and G-4 (1945-1946) at Headquarters,

CBI. He was Baltimore District Engineer

325
(1957-1960); and Commanding General of the Corps of

Engineers Ballistic Missile Construction Office

(1960-1961). He retired in 1965.

63 l BG Joseph A. Cranston (1898-1973) graduated from

the USMA in 1919 with a commission in the

Infantry. In CBI he was Commanding General,

Intermediate Section Headquarters, in Chabua,

Assam, India (1944); and with the Services of

supply (1944-1945). When the Japanese invasion Of

western Burma and eastern India seemed likely in

April 1944, Stilwell appointed Cranston as Ground

Forces Commander, Upper Assam.

64 . BG Robert R. Neyland, Jr. (1892-1962) graduated

from the USMA in. 1916 with a commission in the

Corps of Engineers. He was aide-de-camp to General

Douglas MacArthur at West Point (1921-1922) and

professor of military science and tactics at the

University of Tennessee (1925-1930) before retiring

as a major in 1936. He returned to active duty in

1941; was promoted to brigadier general in 1944;

and served as Commanding General, Base Section,

Services of Supply, India-Burma theater

(1944-1945). He retired in 1948.

65 l Known as the "Boeing Superfortress," the B-29 was

the most sophisticated of the World War II

bombers. Each bomber was 99 feet long, had a

141-foot wingspan, and could carry 10 tons of

bombs. The B-29 required an 8,500-foot runway,

which was 2,500 feet longer than that needed by the

next largest bomber, the B-17 First used in

Bangkok in June 1944, B-29s flew approximately

35,000 sorties and dropped nearly 170,000 tons of

bombs, including the atomic bomb, before the war's

end.

66 . BG Philip F. Kromer, Jr. (b. 1905) graduated from

the USMA in 1930 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. In CBI he was Division Engineer,

Engineer Division #1, Calcutta (1943-1945); and

Deputy Commanding Officer, Base Section, Calcutta 

(1945-1946). He served with the Armed Forces

Special Weapons Project (1951-1953); was Chicago

District Engineer (1953-1956); and Commanding

General, Engineer Maintenance Center (1959-1962).

326
University in 19270 During World War II he

commanded bombing units in the European and Pacific

theaters. He directed the 20th Bomber Command in

B-29 attacks in CBI and on the Japanese mainland.

Later he became Chief of Staff of the Strategic Air

Forces in the Pacific. He commanded the Strategic

Air Command (SAC), and was Vice Chief of Staff of

the Air Force and the Chief of Staff of the Air

Force between 1961 and his retirement in 1965.

68 l GEN George C. Marshall (1880-1959) graduated from

the Virginia Military Institute (VMI) in 1901 and

was commissioned in the Infantry. He served with

the American Expeditionary Force in France

(1917-1919), as GEN John J. Pershing's aide-de-camp

(1919-1924), and as Army Chief of Staff

(1939-1945). General Eisenhower succeeded Marshall

as Chief of Staff in November 1945, whereupon

Marshall went on to become Secretary of State

(1947-1949) and Secretary of Defense (1950-1951).

69 . The last major German offensive, the Ardennes

offensive (December 1944-January 1945), was known

as the "Battle of the Bulge" because of the

resulting triangular "bulge" of the line into

Belgium. Although taken by surprise when the

attack began on 16 December, the Allies countered

with particularly strong efforts at St. Vith and

Bastogne and by 21 January had restored the

original line. Casualties were heavy on both sides.

70 . MG Claude H. Chorpening (b. 1897) graduated from

the USMA in November 1918 with a commission in the

Corps of Engineers. He served as assistant to the

Engineer of Fort Peck District (1937-1939) and as

chief of the Development Branch and then Executive

Officer of the Supply Division in OCE (1940-1943).

He was Deputy Commander of the United Kingdom Base,

Services of Supply (1943-1945), before shifting to

the Pacific theater to become commanding officer of

the Construction Service, Central Pacific Base

Command. After the war he served as Tulsa District

Engineer (1946-1949), and as chief of the Personnel

Division and Assistant Chief of Engineers for Civil

Works in OCE (1949-1954). He retired in 1956.

71 . After breaking with the Communists in 1927, Chiang

Kai-shek (1887-1975) reversed his policy of

327
generalissimo in 1937 and Supreme Commander of the

Allied Forces in the China theater in 1942. He

obtained American support but had difficulty

working with American commanders, notably Stilwell.

72 . MG Royal B. Lord (1899-1963) graduated from the

USMA in 1923 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He held various staff positions in ETO

including Chief of Staff, Communications Zone; and

Deputy Chief of Staff at Headquarters (1942-1946).

He retired in 1946.

73 . MG Marshall Stubbs (b. 1906) graduated from the

USMA in 1929 with a commission in the Infantry. He

served in Headquarters, Advance Section,

Communications Zone; and as Chemical Officer and

Deputy G-4 in ETO (1944-1945).

74 . LTG Emerson C. Itschner (b. 1903) graduated from

the USMA in 1923 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He was Chief Engineer, Advance Section,

Communications Zone, ETO (1944-1945); I Corps

Engineer in Korea (1950-1951); and North Pacific

Division Engineer (1952-1953). In 1953 he came to

Washington as assistant chief of engineers

(1953-1956) and then served as Chief of Engineers

until his retirement in 1961.

75 . After the liberation of Antwerp in September 1944,

this port city became a major target for German

flying bombs, the V-l and the V-2 Jet engines

powered both rockets, but the more sophisticated

V-2 carried a supply of liquid oxygen, allowing it

to fly at higher altitudes. Once the failure of

their last offensive became clear, the Germans hit

Antwerp with a barrage of V-1s. General Wilson was

there at the time of the heaviest attacks, which

culminated on 16 February when 160 of the V-1s fell

on the city.

76 . LTG Marshall S. Carter (b. 1909) graduated from the

USMA in 1931 with a commission in the Coast

Artillery Corps. He served on the War Department

General Staff (1942-1945). He was Deputy Director,

Central Intelligence Agency (1962-1965), and

Director, National Security Agency (1965-1969).

328
,

.

78 .

79 .

80 .

81 .

82 .

graduated from the USMA in 1904 with a commission

in the Cavalry. He served as Commandant of Cadets

(1929-1933) and as Commandant,

(1939-1940).

the Cavalry School

He was Commanding General, Hawaiian

Department; Military Governor of Hawaii; and

Commanding General, Pacific Ocean Areas and Middle

Pacific (1943-1946).

LTG Richard K. Sutherland (b. 1893) graduated from

Yale University in 1916. During World War I he

served with the Infantry on the Verdun front and at

Chateau Thierry in

1918).

the Aisne defensive (June-July

He was MacArthur's Chief of Staff in the

Southwest Pacific Area (March 1944-December 1945).

COL Vachel D. Whatley, Jr. (b. 1903), graduated

from the USMA in 1927 with a commission in the

Infantry. During World War II he served at

Headquarters, U.S. Army Forces, Mid-Pacific. He

retired in 1957.

LTG Samuel D. Sturgis, Jr. (1897-1964) graduated

from the USMA in 1918 with a commission in the

Corps of Engineers. General Sturgis served in

France during World War I, and while in the

Philippines (1926-1929) he commanded the 14th

Engineer Regiment as the unit opened trails that

were used by MacArthur in the defense of Bataan

during World War II. He served on the

Passamaquoddy Tidal Power Project (1935-1937) and

as Vicksburg District

joined

Engineer (1939-1942) He

the Sixth Army in the Southwest Pacific

theater of operations as Chief Engineer in 1943 and

remained with it throughout operations in New

Guinea, the Philippines, and Japan. He was Deputy

Director, Organization and Training Division,

Headquarters, U.S. Army (1948-1949); and Missouri

River Division Engineer (1949-1951). His last

assignment before being selected as Chief of

Engineers in 1953 was as Commanding General,

Communications Zone, U.S. Army, Europe. He retired

in 1956.

Gurkhas were soldiers from Nepal who served in the

British and Indian Armies.

MG Thomas A. Terry (1885-1963) graduated from the

USMA in 1908 with a commission in the Coast

Artillery Corps. He was Commanding General, New

 329
retired in 1946.

83 . MG William M.Creasy (b. 1905) graduated from the

USMA in 1926 with a commission in the Air Service.

He also served in the Field Artillery and the

Chemical Warfare Service. He was Deputy Chief of

Staff and Commanding Officer, Services of Supply,

CBI (1944-1945). After the war he served in

various capacities in the Chemical Corps, including

as its chief (1954-1958).

84 . The Corps of Engineers completed Baldhill Dam on

the Sheyenne River in North Dakota in 1950. It

provides substantial water supply and recreational

benefits to the semi-arid region of the state.

Baldhill resulted in the creation of Lake

Ashtabula, which- serves as a center for fish,

wildlife, forest, and biological conservation as

well as a popular recreational attraction.

85 . In 1949 the Corps undertook a study for a permanent

flood control project on the Souris River north of

Minot, North Dakota. At the same time the Bureau

of Reclamation was

diversion project.

considering a Missouri-Souris

The bureau rejected the idea in

1956. After years of debate, Congress authorized

the Burlington Dam in 1970. Preconstruction

planning was still in progress in 1983.

86 . Construction problems encountered in Alaska and

Canada during World War II led to research on

permafrost by the Missouri River Division beginning

in 1943. Similar research began in Boston District

the following year, resulting in the establishment

of the Soils Foundation and Frost Effects

Laboratory. In 1945 the Corps established the

Permafrost Division in St. Paul District referred

to here. See Walter K. Wilson, Jr., "The Problem

of Permafrost," in appendix A.

87 . In 1951 the Corps of Engineers began construction

of an airbase at Thule, Greenland, as part of the

support system for SAC bombers and the United

States' advance warning system. Permafrost was a

major problem. But, as Wilson indicates, the Corps

used experience gained in World War II and relied

on subsequent research to solve it. They erected buildings on pads containing materials that did not

330
88 .

!

I -. .*

.89 .

90 ,

91 .

! 92 .

93 .

Concern over possible military operations relating

to the Korean War was responsible for the founding

of the Snow, Ice, and Permafrost Research

Establishment (SIPRE) at Wilmette, IL, in 1951.

This organization studied the physical and

mechanical properties of snow and ice. In 1953 the

Corps merged the St. Paul and Boston District units

into the Arctic Construction Frost Effects

Laboratory (ACFEL), which

SIPRE to become

in 1963 combined with

the Cold Regions Research and

Engineering Laboratory (CRREL), located in Hanover,

NH l

COL William N. Leaf (1898-1948) graduated from the

USMA in 1923 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He commanded the 592d Engineer

Amphibious Regiment, Sixth Army, in the Southwest

Pacific and Philippines (1943-1945), and served as

Rock Island District Engineer from 1946 until his

death on 1 June 1948.

The Corps of Engineers began construction of

Allatoona Dam on the Etowah River upstream from

Rome, Georgia, in 1944. Completed in 1955, the

project provides a dam and reservoir for flood

control, regulation of stream flow for navigation,

and development of hydroelectric power.

The Jim Woodruff Reservoir resulted from Corps

construction of a lock and dam as one of four

projects for development of the Appalachicola

River. The project began in 1947 and was completed

ten years later. The dam's power-generating units

have a capacity of 30,000 kilowatts.

BG Mason J. Young (1894-1982) graduated from the

USMA in 1915 with a commission in the Corps of Engineers. He was Engineer, VII Corps, in the

American and European theaters (1941-1945); South

Atlantic Division Engineer (1947-1949); and

Commander, European Command, Communications Zone,

and Wurzberg German Military Post, 1951-1953.

MG Bernard L. Robinson (b. 1901) graduated from the

USMA in 1920 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He commanded the 5201st Engineer

Construction Brigade in the Southwest Pacific,

331
, 

Agency, 

(1955-1957).

94 . The original Warrior-Tombigbee project, consisting

of 17 dams with 18 lifts along the Black Warrior,

Warrior, and Tombigbee Rivers, was completed in

1915. Demopolis Dam replaced locks 4 to 7.

95 . The cost-plus-fixed-fee contract (CPFF) is used

when insufficient time is available to prepare

plans and specifications before construction

starts; when details are scarce, as in this

instance; or when the project is such that frequent

changes are anticipated during construction. There

is no competitive bidding. CPFF contracts involve

close supervision of the work because reimbursement

is limited to actual expenditures for work approved

by the contracting officer. The fixed fee is based

on a schedule of maximum fees calculated as a

percentage of total cost.

96 l MG Gerald E. Galloway (1902-1980) graduated from

the USMA in 1925 with a commission in the Corps of Engineers. He commanded the 543d Engineer Boat and

Shore Regiment in the Southwest Pacific theater

(1942-1945), served in OCE (1949-1951), and was

Commanding General of the Engineer Center and the

Engineer School at Fort Belvoir (1958-1960). He

completed his active duty career as Pacific Ocean

Division Engineer (1960-1962).

97 l Buford Dam-Lake Sidney Lanier is a multipurpose

project with three power-generating units. The dam

is located on the Chattahoochee River about 50

miles above Atlanta with a reservoir (Lake Sidney

Lanier) extending 47 miles upriver. Construction

began in March 1950 and was completed in June 1960.

98 . Wernher von Braun (1912-1977) came to the United

States with 120 associates in 1945 under contract

to the U.S. Army Ordnance Department to develop

rockets. Von Braun had been technical director of

the German Army Rocket Center since 1937 and had

developed the V-2. Von Braun's group became the

nucleus of the U.S. Army Ordnance Guided Missile

Division, Redstone Arsenal, at Huntsville, AL

(1950-1955).

332
Engineers. As assistant to the District Engineer,

he took charge of spillway construction at Fort

Peck Dam (1934-1938). In 1939 he began a four-year

tour in OCE serving as Chief, Rivers and Harbors

Section (1939-1940); Chief, Construction Section

(1940-1941); and Executive Officer, Construction

Division (1941-1943). In ETO he was Deputy Chief

Engineer (1943-1945). After the War he was Deputy

Engineer, Lower Mississippi Valley Division, and

Secretary of the Mississippi River Commission

(1945-1947); New Orleans District Engineer

(1947-1949); and Great Lakes Division Engineer

(1949-1951). He returned to OCE in 1951 as

Assistant Chief of Engineers for, Military

Construction. His last assignment was as Division

Engineer and President of the Mississippi River

Commission (195371957).

100. The Corps of Engineers, acting as construction

agent for the U.S. Air Force, began work on an

airbase at Sidi Slimane, a town in the Rabat region

of northwestern French Morocco, in 1951.

101. MG Curtis W. Chapman, Jr. (b. 1918) graduated from

the USMA in 1941 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. During World War II he commanded the

1312th Engineer General Service Regiment in

Australia, New Guinea, and the Philippines. In the

Mediterranean Division he was Chief, Operations

Division (1952-1953), and Deputy Division Engineer

(1953-1954) b fe ore he resigned from the Army. In

1959 he returned to active duty as Executive

Director, Research and Development Division, OCE

(1959-1960). He held troop command (1960-1968),

was the Executive Officer in the OCE (1964-1966),

and was Division Engineer, Pacific Ocean Division

(1968-1970). He served as Deputy Commanding

General, U.S. Army Combat Developments Command

(1971-1973), and Senior Member, Weapons System

Evaluation Group (1973-1975).

102. COL Gunnard W. "Swede" Carlson (1910-1983)

graduated from the USMA in 1931. He served in the

G-4 Section of Headquarters, Supreme command,

Allied Powers (1945-1946); was Boston District

Engineer (1949-1950); served in Morocco with the

Casablanca District (1952-1953); and was District

Engineer at Nouasseur (1953-1954). He retired in

1958.

333
served in the Persian Gulf Command and in the

Pacific. He was Deputy District Engineer, Athens,

Greece (1947-1949); and organized and then

commanded the Middle East District, headquartered

in Tripoli, Libya (1950-1953). Following this

assignment he served in OCE under the Assistant

Chief of Engineers for Military Construction and

then as District Engineer, Jacksonville

(1957-1960). After retirement he was a project

manager on the Link Canal Project in Pakistan

(1960-1971).

104. After numerous delays, construction of an airfield

began in February 1954 at Boulhaut, a town in

French Morocco 28 miles east of Casablanca.

105. MG David H. Tulley (1904-1970) graduated from the

USMA in 1925 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. During World War II he was Assistant

Army Engineer, Third Army, ETO (1944-1945). Later

assignments were as Deputy Chief and Chief,

Engineer Division, U.S. Army Europe (1952-1953);

Assistant Chief of Engineers for Military

Construction (1953-1956); and Commanding General,

the Engineer Center and Fort Belvoir (1956-1958). He retired in 1961.

106. At this point Tulley left OCE to become Commanding

General of the Engineer Center and Fort Belvoir.

107. Wilber M. Brucker served as Secretary of the Army

for the period 21 July 1955 to 20 January 1961.

108. Robert S. Kerr (1896-1963) served as a U.S. senator

from Oklahoma from 1949 until his death in 1963.

General Wilson called on the senator because Kerr

at the time was chairman of the Subcommittee on

Rivers, Harbors, and Flood Control of the Senate

Public Works Committee and was the ranking Democrat

on the full committee. His subcommittee had

control over Corps project authorizations. As

chairman, Kerr was an ex officio member (with full

voting and speaking rights) of the Senate

Appropriations Subcommittee on Public Works, the

committee which controlled appropriations for Corps

projects.

334
Engineers. 

Wod Wae seved te G

Section of Headquarters; and Headquarters,

Communications Zone, ET0 (1943-1945). He was

Kansas City District Engineer (1945-1948), Alaska

District Engineer (1948-1949), and Acting Assistant

Chief of Engineers for Civil Works and Assistant

Chief of Engineers for Special Projects

(1949-1951). General Potter%

assignments ’ were as

last active duty

Missouri River Division

Engineer (1952-1956) and as Governor of the Canal

Zone and President of the Panama Canal Company

(1956-1960).

110. MG Robert J. Fleming, Jr. (b. 1907) graduated from

the USMA in 1928 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. In World War II he served as Chief of

Staff, Hawaii Service Command; Deputy Chief of

Staff, Central Pacific Area (1942-1943); and

Engineer, XXII Corps, ETO (1944-1945). General

Fleming was Engineer, Office of the Chief, Army

Field Forces (1951-1954); Southwest Division

Engineer (1960-1962); and Governor of the Canal

Zone and President of the Panama Canal Company

(1962-1967).

111 LTG William F. Cassidy (b. 1908) graduated from the

USMA in 1931 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. In World War II he commanded the 815th

Engineer Aviation Battalion in North Africa

(1942-1943) and the 21st Engineer Aviation Regiment

in Italy (1943-1944). He served in the Far East

(1950-1953); as Division Engineer, South Pacific

Division (1955-1958); in OCE as Assistant Chief of

Engineers for Civil Works (1959-1962) and Deputy

Chief of Engineers (1962-1963); and as Commanding

General of the Engineer Center and Fort Belvoir

(1963-1965) before his assignment as Chief of

Engineers (1965-1969). He retired in 1969 but

returned to active duty for one year as Chief of

the Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors

(1969-1970).

112. MG Thomas J. Hayes III (b. 1914) headed the Los

Angeles Field Office, predecessor to CEBMCO

(1958-1959), and then served as vice commander and

commander of CEBMCO (1960-1962). He graduated from

the USMA in 1936 with a commission in the Corps of

Engineers. He directed military construction in

335
113.

Greenland, Alaska, and the Caribbean (1941-1943)

and served on the faculty of the Engineer school

(1944-1945). Later assignments were as District

Engineer, Little Rock (1952-1953) and Omaha

(1953-1957); Assistant to the Chief of Engineers

for NASA support and Director of Military

Construction for Space Programs (1962-1964);

Director of Topography and Military Engineering

(1964-1967); and Division Engineer, South Atlantic

(1967-1969). After retiring from the Army in 1969

he joined International Engineering Company.

From 1954 until 1959 the group was known as the

Planning Studies Division and was part of the Army

Map Service. In December 1959 the organization

came under the command of Troop Operations, OCE, as

the Strategic Planning Group. However, the group

was still located in the same building as the Army

Map Service. In 1977, after two further name

changes, the group assumed its present designation,

the Engineer Studies Center, and began reporting

directly to the deputy chief of engineers.

114. BG William C. Hall (1909-1982) graduated from the

USMA in 1931 with a commission in the Infantry but

transferred to the Corps of Engineers in 1936.

During World War II he was Assistant to the Chief,

Intelligence Branch, OCE (1941-1943); and

Commander, 1306th Engineer General Service Regiment

(1943-1946), serving in the Southern Base Section,

Communications Zone and the Third Army area, ETO

(1943-1945); and in the Philippines (1945-1946).

He was the Executive Officer in the Engineering

Division, Military Construction, OCE (1946-1948);

and Director of Personnel (1959-1961) and Director

of Research and Development, OCE (1961-1962). He

retired in 1963 and became Executive Secretary,

Society of American Military Engineers (1965-1978).

115. Robert S. McNamara (b. 1916) was president of the

Ford Motor Company when President John F. Kennedy

appointed him Secretary of Defense in 1961.

McNamara served in that position until 1968.

116. Adam Yarmolinsky (b. 1922) was Special Assistant to

the Secretary of Defense (1961-1964). He is the

author of The Military Establishment (1971).

117. GEN George H. Decker (1902-1980) graduated from

Lafayette College in 1924. The same year he was

336
y

(1943-1946). He was Comptroller of the Army

(1952-1955), and Vice Chief of Staff (1959-1960)

and Chief of Staff, U.S. Army (1960-1962). As

Chief of Staff he promoted the modernization of

weapons and stronger ground forces in Europe.

118. GEN Earle G. Wheeler (1908-1975) succeeded Decker

as Chief of Staff on 1 October 1962. General

Wheeler graduated from the USMA in 1932 with a

commission in the Infantry. In World War II he was

Chief of Staff of the 63d Division in the American

and European theaters (1943-1945). He served as

Chief of Staff, U.S. Army (1962-1964), and as

Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, from 1964 until

his retirement in 1970.

119. GEN Harold K. Johnson (b. 1912) graduated from the

U.SMA in 1933 with a commission in the Infantry.

During World War II he was a prisoner of war

(1942-1945) foll owing the fall of Bataan. He was

Commandant of the Command and General Staff School

(1960-1963); Deputy Chief of Staff, Military

Operations, Department of the Army (1963-1964); and

Chief of Staff, U.S. Army (1964-1968).

120. After graduation from Oregon State College with a

B.S. in civil engineering in 1936, MG Jackson

Graham (b. 1915) entered on active duty with the

Corps of Engineers. During World War II he was a

battalion commander and Division Engineer, 12th

Armored Division (1942-1944), and commanded the

1160th Engineer Combat Group, ETO (1944-1945). He

served as Assistant to the District Engineer and

Executive Officer, Los Angeles Engineer District

(1949-1951), and as Chief, Military Personnel

Division, and then Assistant Chief of Engineers for

Personnel and Administration (1951-1954). General

Graham was District Engineer, Portland (1955-1958);

Division Engineer, Ohio River Division (1961-1963);

and Director of Civil Works, OCE (1963-1966).

121. On 23 March 1961 a chemical barge carrying several

tanks of liquid chlorine sank in the Mississippi

River 7.5 miles below Natchez. Private efforts to

locate and raise the barge and its deadly cargo

failed. Although estimates determined that the

chlorine should not escape for decades, the

337
Office of Emergency Planning on 7 September 1962 to

direct the.’ Corps of Engineers to remove the

hazard. COL Warren S. Everett, the

District Engineer,

Vicksburg

took charge of the effort.

Salvage operations were safely completed by the end

of October. See Warren S. Everett, "Operation

Chlorine," Military

1963): 79-83.

-Engineer 55 (March-April

122. Along the lower Mississippi River, civilian levee

boards, authorized by the state and organized

locally, maintain Corps-built levees and construct

levees in areas where the Corps does not have

authority to do so.

123. The Beach Erosion Board existed from July 1930

until November 1963 when it was replaced by the

Coastal Engineering Research Center (CERC). The

board, comprised of civilian and military members,

was responsible for beach erosion studies and

research investigations. Congress created the

Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors (BERH) in

June 1902. The board, consisting of five Engineer

officers, was charged with reviewing all reports on

the examination and surveys authorized by

Congress. The board later included Division

Engineers in addition to the chairman and a

resident member supported by a staff of civilians

representing several disciplines.

124. Winton M. "Red" Blount (b.

Blount 1921) was president of

the Construction Company, Montgomery,

Alabama (1946-1968), and Postmaster General of the

United States (1969-1971).

125. MG Augustus M. Minton (b. 1911) was Director of

Civil Engineering for the Air Force (1957-1963) and

Chief of Staff of the Air Force (1964-1965).

Commodore Archibald D. Hunter (b.1905) graduated

from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1927. He served as

Deputy Chief, U.S. Navy Bureau of Yards and Docks

(1949-1953) and retired from active duty in 1959.

126. MG Daniel A. Raymond (b. 1917) graduated from the

USMA in 1942 with a commission in the corps of

Engineers. During World War II he served with the

Fleet and Amphibious Force in the Mediterranean

338
Deputy Okinawa District Engineer (1958-1960);

Mobile District Engineer (1961-1964); Deputy

Director and Director of Construction, Construction

Directorate, U.S. Military Assistance Command,

Vietnam (1966-1967); Director, Southeast Asia

Construction Group, Office of the Assistant

Secretary of Defense (1967-1969); and Director of

Military Construction, OCE (1969-1972).

339
Abrams, Creighton W., Jr., 39

Afghanistan, 149, 219, 263

Agency for International Development, 218, 219, 263

Air Force, 43, 44, 49, 64, 65, 76, 77, 78, 80, 83,

112, 130, 142, 145, 146, 147, 148, 150, 165,

166, 167, 168, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175,

176, 177, 178, 179, 182, 189, 223, 229, 231,

232, 257, 262, 263, 264, 289, 296, 297, 298, 308,

309, 310, 312, 313, 314

Air Force Ballistic Systems Command, 257

Al Johnson Construction Company, 122

Alabama Highway Department, 216

Alaska, 41, 112, 113, 114, 115, 199, 200,225, 226, . 227, 274

Alaska Highway Department, 115

Allatoona Dam, 119, 124

Allegheny River, 199

American Waterway Operators, 212

Amphibious Corps, Atlantic Fleet, 54, 55

Anchorage, 200

Anderson, Jonathan, 54, 57

Anderson, William D.A., 24, 25

Arabian-American Oil Company, 140

ARAMCO, see Arabian-American Oil Company

Arkansas Basin Development Association, 236

Arkansas River, 161, 185, 186, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239,

240

Arlee (North Dakota), 111

Arlington National Cemetery, 194, 195, 196

Army Cooperative Insuring Association, 51

Army Ground Forces, 57

Army Map Service, 176, 177, 192, 193

Army--Navy Staff College, 62, 63, 64, 66

Army Ordnance Missile Command, 256

Army Signal Corps, 254

Army War College, 153

Asmara, 142

Atlantic Fleet, 54, 55

Atlas Constructors, 301, 313

Atomic Energy Commission, 250

Bahrain, 141

Baldhill Dam, 110, 111

Barber, Theodore, 13

Barney, Keith, 61

"Barney's Black Beauties," 61

Beach Erosion Board, 36, 204

Belgium, 131, 158

341
Blount, Red, 210, 211

Blue Mountain (Mississippi) 38

Board of Engineers for Rivers and Harbors, 204

Bonny, Jack, 304, 305, 306

Boulhaut Airfield, 142, 149

Bradley, Omar N., 16, 19

Brahmaputra, 222

British Columbia, 215

British 14th Army, 222

Brown, Eddie, 156

Brucker, Wilbur, 160

Buford Dam, 129

Bureau of Reclamation, 110

Bureau of Yards and Docks, 254

Burma, 73, 79, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 221, 222, 223,

224

Calcutta, 77, 78, 82, 83, 85, 90, 104, 105, 222

Camp McCoy, 151

Camp Phillips, 58, 59, 60

Camp Pickett, 55

Campbell, Jack, 298, 299, 302

Canada, 115, 116, 214, 225

Cape Canaveral, 165, 171, 182, 183, 185, 234, 235, 255,

256, 263

Cape Kennedy, see Cape Canaveral

Carlson, Gunnard ("Swede"), 139, 282, 296, 298, 300,

302

Carter, Bill, 33, 91, 164

Carter, Marshall S. ("Pat"), 92, 93

Casablanca, 136, 138, 139, 279, 281, 282, 283, 284,

287, 290, 291, 292, 300, 311, 314

Cassidy, Bill, 164, 165, 195, 210, 273

CBI Theater, see China-Burma-India Theater

CCC, see Civilian Conservation Corps

CEBMCO, see Corps of Engineers Ballistic Missile

Construction Office

Ceylon, 74, 93, 95, 96

Chabua, 104, 106

Chapman, Curtis, 138, 139, 298, 299, 300, 302

Chemical Corps, 126, 127, 128

Chengtu, 77, 83

Chesapeake Bay, 52, 55

Chiang Kai-shek, 89

China, 69, 77, 79, 83, 84, 89, 101, 102, 103, 221

China-Burma-India Theater, 66, 67, 70, 83, 84, 85

Chindwin River, 222

Chorpening, Claude H., 88, 92

Civilian Conservation Corps, 37, 38, 39, 59, 94

342
Collins, Herb, 121

Command and General Staff School, 43

Congress, U.S., 111, 135, 149, 177, 182, 197, 199, 208,

215, 218, 240, 260, 268, 270, 271, 272

Connor, Bert, 55

Cook School, 3

Cornell University, 40, 41 

Corps of Engineers Ballistic Missile Construction

Office, 165, 166, 173, 174, 175, 180, 182, 257

Corregidor, 45, 93, 95

Cothran, Frank, 35, 36

Cranston, Joe, 76, 104

Creasy, Bill, 103

Creighton, Daniels, and Moss, 126

Cross-Florida Barge Canal, 198

Dardanelle Dam, 237

Decker, George, 188, 189, 191

Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western Railroad, 23

Delaware River Basin, 271

Denmark, 211

Derby, George, 295, 298

Derleth, Charles, 33, 35

Desert Strike (Exercise), 264, 265, 266

Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, 138, 140, 141, 147, 219

Downs, Hugh, 199

Dunn, Carroll H., 157

East Atlantic District, 139, 295, 307

Eglin Field, 124

809th Engineer Battalion, 274

Eighteenth Engineer Brigade, 150

Eisenhower, Dwight D., 52

1113th Division, 62, 63, 66

Eleventh Air Assault Division, 264, 274

Eleventh Corps, 60

Engineer Instructors Conference, 261

Engineer Replacement Training Center, 58

Engineer School, 39, 159

Eritrea, 138, 139, 142, 299, 310

Ethiopia, 310

Eufaula Dam, 237, 278

Fairbanks, 112, 114, 225, 227

Farrell, Tom, 75, 76, 87, 131, 173

Fifth Army, 152

First Engineer Battalion, 274

First Gas Regiment, 7

First Infantry Division, 54

343
Foreign Liquidation Commission, 101, 102, 103

Fort Barrancas, 1, 2

Fort Belvoir, 11, 58, 153, 159, 160, 161, 187, 194,

195, 230, 261, 273

Fort Benning, 12, 26, 27, 28, 79, 124

Fort Bragg, 55, 56

Fort Humphreys, 31, 153 .

Fort Hunt, 2

Fort Leonard Wood, 150, 151, 152

Fort McClellan, 37, 38, 124

Fort McNair, 66

Fort McPherson, 132

Fort Monroe, 2

Fort Ord, 79

Fort Pickens, 2

Fort Rosecrans, 5

Fort Ruger, 5, 7, 9

Fort Sill, 1

Fort Warren, 1

Fort Washington, 2

Fowlkes, Benny, 26, 27, 28, 32

Fox, Harry L., 131, 132

France, 87, 88, 91, 149, 233, 310

Freeman, Paul, 17

French Liaison Mission, 298, 309, 310

Frost, Bob, 113, 114

Galloway, Jerry, 126

Gavin, Jimmy, 17, 51

Germany, 88, 233, 274

Geronimo, 1

Golden Beaver Award, 216

Goodpaster, Andrew J., 39

Graham, Jackson, 194, 195, 197,' 199, 272

Green, Jimmy, 45

Greenland, 309

Gulf Intercoastal Association, 212

Hall, Bill, 186, 193

Hanmer, Steve, 27, 28, 30, 31, 32

Hansell, Paul, 43, 44

Hardin, Johnny, 136, 137

Harding, William G., 4

Harkins, Paul, 17

Harrison, Desmond, 67, 75

Harvard University, 249

Hastead, Billy, 70, 78, 82

Hawaii, 5, 6, 7, 10, 45, 46, 48, 49, 50, 93

Hawaiian Department, 7

344
!

--I Idaho Power Company, 214

Imphal, 222

Hell's Canyon project, 214

Houston Manned Spacecraft Center, 165, 235, 256, 263

Hughes, Johnny, 66

Hunt, Percy, 2

Hunter, Barney, 214

Hunter, Charles N. ("Ruby"), 17, 74

Huntsville, 129, 130, 171, 180, 182, 234, 25

India, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 73, 74, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80,

82, 83, 84, 85, 87, 88, 89, 90, 95, 97, 101, 102,

104, 105, 221

India-Burma Theater, 96, 101, 103, 104, 173

Iran, 149, 263

Italy, 149, 314

Itschner, Emerson, 91, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158,

176

Jacksonville District, 182

Jaillite, W. Marks, 227

Japan, 77, 79, 84, 89, 94, 95, 159, 221, 223

Jasper (Alabama), 25

Jim Woodruff Dam and Reservoir, 119, 123, 135, 176

Johnson, Harold K., 194, 196, 208

Johnson, Lyndon B., 197, 198, 278

Joint Construction Agency, 149, 232, 298

Kalewa, 221, 222, 223

Keller, Chuck, 4

Kennedy, Jacqueline, 195, 196

Kennedy, John F., 160, 161, 162, 163, 194, 195, 196,

197, 198, 239, 241, 245, 254, 270

Kerr, Robert S., 161, 181, 182

Keystone Dam, 237

King, Campbell, 31

Kinzua Dam, 198, 199

Korea, 124, 229, 230, 231, 232, 274, 294, 296

Korea Construction Agency, 232

Kromer, Philip F., Jr., 78

Kunming, 85, 98, 103

Ladd Field, 112, 114

LaFollette, Chester, 3, 4

LaFollette, Robert, 3

LaFollette, William L., 3

Lake Lanier, 129

Lasher, Ed, 17

Lashio, 221

345
Leavenworth, 43, 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 55, 58, 64, 65

Lebanon, 140

Ledo, 76, 80, 82, 85, 96, 97, 98, 101, 102, 103, 104,

105, 106, 221, 222

Lee, John, C.H., 176

LeMay, Curtis, 78, 176, 189

Libya, 138

Lincoln, George ("Abe"), 19

Little Rock, 116, 129

Long, Paul, 127, 128

Lord, Roy, 91

Los Angeles District, 166, 173, 175

Los Angeles Missile Construction Office, 172

Louisiana, 52, 151

MacArthur, Douglas A., 65, 79, 89, 93, 94, 95

Malony, Harry J., 60

Mandalay, 221, 222, 223

Manger, Henry, J., 113, 114

Manhattan District, 253, 257

Manila, 93

Manipur Road, 222

Manitoba, 115, 116, 214

Marshall, George C., 17, 66, 87, 88

Marshall Space Flight Center, 235, 256

McKee, William F. ("Bozo"), 17

McNamara, James E., 98

McNamara, Robert S., 187, 188, 194, 195, 196

Mediterranean Division, 137, 138, 139, 140, 142, 148;

149, 232, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 302, 307,

310, 314

Merrill, Frank, 17, 74

Merrill's Marauders, 17

Middle East District, 139, 140, 142, 295, 297, 299,

307, 310, 314

Minneapolis, 108

Minton, Gus, 214

Mississippi River, 108, 124, 200, 202

Mississippi River Commission, 200

Mississippi Test Operations Center, 235, 256, 263

Missouri River, 110, 202

Missouri River Division, 119

Missouri-Souris project, 111

Mitchell, William A., 19

Mitchell, Winfiled A., 59

Mobile, 2, 11, 24, 26, 116, 205, 211, 213, 279

Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce, 213

Mobile District, 23, 24, 25, 44, 117, 119, 120, 121,

122, 123, 124, 127, 129, 130, 131, 132, 134, 135,

158, 165, 182, 210, 217, 256

346
:

Ii

148, 149, 152, 153, 159, 214, 215, 280, 281, 282,

283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292,

293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302,

303, 304, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314

Morris, John A., 105, 106

Morrison-Knudsen, 214, 215, 301

Mountbatten, Lord Louis, 66, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, 90,

96, 221

Muscle Shoals, 126, 133, 295

Myingyan, 223

Myitkyina, 101, 102, 103, 221

National Aeronautics and Space Administration, 165,

166, 181, 182, 183, 185, 186, 194, 210, 235, 238,

255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 263

National Park Service, 2

National Reclamation Association, 247

National Rivers and Harbors Congress, 246

National Waterway Conference, 212

NATO, see North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Naval War College, 54, 55, 64

Navy, 55, 56, 57, 64, 65, 148, 232, 254, 313, 314

New Delhi,

I

17, 67, 70, 74, 80, 103

New England Division, 114

New York District, 206

Neyland, Bob, 76, 104

94th Division, 60, 61

Ninth Infantry Division, 54, 55

Nord, Warren, 109, 111

North Atlantic Division, 41, 126, 127, 206, 295

North Atlantic Treaty Organization, 140, 149

North Dakota, 110, 119

North Dakota Water Commissioners, 110

Northern Combat Area Command, 222

Northern Power Plant Builders, 215, 216

Northway Airfield, 114, 226, 227

Nouasseur, 281, 282, 288, 290, 291, 294, 307, 314

O'Brien, Morrough P., 33, 35, 36, 37, 208

O'Rourke, Charles E., 40

Oake Dam, 197, 198

Omaha missile complex, 171

127th Engineer Battalion, 274

Oologah Dam, 237

"Operation Chlorine," 200, 202

Ouachita River, 238

Pakistan, 149, 263

Paris, 87, 88, 91, 149

Pascagoula, 26

Passamaquoddy, 41, 42

347
Perini Corporation, 123, 214

Perini, Lou, 123, 124

Perkins, Bert, 214

Permanent International Association of Navigation

Congresses, 211

Person, Jack, 17

Philippe, Bob, 113, 136

Philippine Islands, 45, 46, 153, 159

PIANC, see Permanent International Association of

Navigation Congresses

Pick, Lew, 76, 77, 85, 95, 96, 117, 119, 164

Port Leyoute, Morocco, 291

Portage Mountain Powerhouse, 215

Porter & Urquhart, 136

Post Office Department, 210, 211

Potter, William E. (Joe), 164

Prince Philip, 72, 73

Pringle, Tom, 113

Public Health Service, 239

Punahou, 5, 8

Purdue University, 112, 113, 227

Quebec Conference, 66, 89

Rangoon, 221, 222

Raymond, Dan, 215

Red River, 239

Red River of the North, 115, 116, 214

Resources for the Future, Inc., 241

Richardson, Robert C., Jr., 93

Rindlaub, Bruce, 35, 36, 37

-Ripley (Mississippi), 38

Robinson, Bernard L., 1200

Rock Island District, 116, 117

Roosevelt, Theodore, 270

St. Paul District, 107, 108, 109, 110, 112, 113, 114,

115, 116, 117, 119, 121, 122, 129, 131, 204, 225,

226

San Francisco Bay, 35

Saudi Arabia, 138, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 150, 219,

263, 291, 299, 310

Schaefer, F. Kingdon, 28, 30, 31

Schamel, Walter, 60

Schofield Barracks, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 45, 46, 48, 61, 80,

103

SEAC, see Southeast Asia Command

Second Armored Division, 52, 56

Second Army, 58, 59

348
Seltzer, Manning E., 135, 175

Senate Appropriations Committee, 240

Senate Committee on Public works, Subcommittee on

Flood Control and Rivers and Harbors, 268, 270

Senate Select Committee on National Water Resources,

240, 241, 242, 243, 245, 270, 271, 272

Services of Supply, 80

Seventh Engineer Regiment, 27

Seventh Engineers, 26, 31, 79

Seventy--ninth Enginer Combat Regiment, 58, 59, 61, 62,

63

Seventy-ninth Engineers, 39, 58

Shreveport, 52, 53

Sidi Slimane, 136, 137

Singapore, 96

Sixth Army, 95, 188

Sixth Army Engineers, 95, 153

Smith, Freddie, 17

Smyser, Craig, 74, 75, 76

Society of American Military Engineers, 234

South Alabama Regional Planning Commission, 213

South Atlantic Division, 119, 120, 127, 131, 132, 133,

134, 158, 297

Southeast Asia, 45, 64, 159

Southeast Asia Command, 63, 66, 67, 69, 70, 72, 73, 78,

87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 95, 96, 221

Southern Industries Corporation ,211, 212, 213, 217

Spain, 148, 313

Stanford university, 114

Staunton Military Academy, 11, 12

Stilwell, Joe, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, 79, 87, 88, 89, 90,

221

Strategic Planning Group, 176

Strategic Studies Group, 192, 193, 262

Stubbs, Marshall, 91

Sturgis, Samuel D., Jr., 95, 126, 133, 137, 138, 153,

188, 189, 228, 295, 297, 298

Sultan, Dan, 75, 76 . Sutherland, Richard K., 93

Sweden, 211

Tamu, 221, 222, 223

Task Force 200, 213

Tennessee Valley Authority, 128

Terry, Thomas, 98, 99, 100

Teters, Dan, 304

Thailand, 274

Third Army, 91

Third Engineer Battalion, 55

Third Engineers, 7, 45, 47, 50, 61, 79, 91, 95, 150,

151

349
, , 

366th Engineer Regiment, 60, 61

Throckmorton, John L., 39

Tinsukia, 222

Today Show, 199

TORCH, 55

Trawicky, Barney, 112, 114, 115

Tripoli, Libya, 138, 139, 140, 142, 299, 310

Troxler, Paul, 140

Truman, Harry S., 164

Tulley, Dave, 152, 302

Tulsa, 116, 129

Turkey, 138, 139, 140, 310

Turkish-U.S. Engineer Group, 139, 149, 295, 299, 307,

310

TUSEG, see Turkish-U.S. Engineer Group

Udall, Stewart L., 198

United Kingdom, 66, 67, 68, 70, 73, 75, 79, 87, 88, 90,

91, 92, 105, 106, 114, 131, 150, 221, 223, 224,

233

U.S. Air Police, 136, 137

U.S. Army Cold Region Research and Engineering

Laboratory, 114

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 109

United States Military Academy, 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,

13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 27, 39,

40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 47, 50, 51, 76, 164, 206,

207, 208, 216, 228, 241, 268

United States Military Academy Planning Board, 216

University Military School, 11

University of California at Berkeley, 32, 33, 34, 35

University of Hawaii, 6

University of Michigan, 114

University of Minnesota, 227

University of Nevada, 114

Urquhart, Leonard C., 40

Valley City (North Dakota), 110, 111

Vance, Cyrus R., 197

Vancouver Barracks, 1

Vandenberg Air Force Base, 234, 256

Vicksburg District, 200

Vicksburg, 37

Vietnam, 39, 185, 191, 192, 193, 214, 215, 295

Viney, Al, 17, 33, 34, 91

von Braun, Wernher, 129, 130, 131, 165, 182

350
Wabu (dredge), 26

Walsh, Orville E., 296, 298

Ward, Bob, 17

Warrior River, 124

Warrior-Tombigbee, 122

Warrior-Tombigbee Association, 212

Washington, District of Columbia, 2, 22, 160, 161

Water Resources Congre

Waterways Experiment

Webb, James E., 181,

ss, 212

Station 37

182, 185

Wedemeyer, Albert C., 66, 67, 68, 72, 87

Welling, Al, 76, 87, 98, 173, 174

West Point, gee united States Military Academy

Western High School, 4

Western Task Force (WW II), 55

Westmoreland, William C., 39

Weston, Buck, 121

Whatley, Vachel D., Jr., 38, 94

Wheeler, Earle G ("Buz"), 191

Wheeler, Raymond A. ("Speck") , 67, 73, 76, 87, 88, 96,

98, 107, 108, 164

Wheelis Airfield, 142

White River, 238

White Sands Proving Ground, 234, 256

White, Tommy, 43, 44

Wilbur, Lyman, 304, 305

Williams, Jerry, 23, 24, 25

Wilson, Evangeline Taylor, 1, 3

Wilson, Frederick, 10, 11, 12, 279, 283

Wilson, Jeanne Herman., 25, 26, 27, 117, 160, 161, 179,

207, 212, 217, 279-294

Wilson, John N. (Jack), 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 42, 43, 88, 91

Wilson, Walter K., Sr., 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 14, 23, 42, 43,

45, 79, 93, 95

Wilson, Walter K., III, 10

Winn, James J., 17

Woods, Bernard, 113

Wuerple, Charles E., 41, 42

Yarmolinsky, Adam, 187

Young, Maason, 119, 120

Yount, Paul, 47, 48, 80, 95, 96

Zackerson, Harry, 155

351 *U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE : 1984 0-441-953/18377 00-441-953/1