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93-384 PDF 2004

EXAMINING SUCCESS IN 

VOCATIONAL EDUCATION

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 

AND THE WORKFORCE 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

April 27, 2004

Serial No. 108-53

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and the Workforce

(

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house 

or 

Committee address: http://edworkforce.house.gov 

(II)

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

JOHN A. BOEHNER, Ohio, Chairman

Thomas E. Petri, Wisconsin, Vice Chairman 

Cass Ballenger, North Carolina 

Peter Hoekstra, Michigan 

Howard P. ‘‘Buck’’ McKeon, California 

Michael N. Castle, Delaware 

Sam Johnson, Texas 

James C. Greenwood, Pennsylvania 

Charlie Norwood, Georgia 

Fred Upton, Michigan 

Vernon J. Ehlers, Michigan 

Jim DeMint, South Carolina 

Johnny Isakson, Georgia 

Judy Biggert, Illinois 

Todd Russell Platts, Pennsylvania 

Patrick J. Tiberi, Ohio 

Ric Keller, Florida 

Tom Osborne, Nebraska 

Joe Wilson, South Carolina 

Tom Cole, Oklahoma 

Jon C. Porter, Nevada 

John Kline, Minnesota 

John R. Carter, Texas 

Marilyn N. Musgrave, Colorado 

Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee 

Phil Gingrey, Georgia 

Max Burns, Georgia 

George Miller, California 

Dale E. Kildee, Michigan 

Major R. Owens, New York 

Donald M. Payne, New Jersey 

Robert E. Andrews, New Jersey 

Lynn C. Woolsey, California 

Rube ́n Hinojosa, Texas 

Carolyn McCarthy, New York 

John F. Tierney, Massachusetts 

Ron Kind, Wisconsin 

Dennis J. Kucinich, Ohio 

David Wu, Oregon 

Rush D. Holt, New Jersey 

Susan A. Davis, California 

Betty McCollum, Minnesota 

Danny K. Davis, Illinois 

Ed Case, Hawaii 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona 

Denise L. Majette, Georgia 

Chris Van Hollen, Maryland 

Tim Ryan, Ohio 

Timothy H. Bishop, New York

Paula Nowakowski, Staff Director 

John Lawrence, Minority Staff Director 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM 

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware, Chairman

Tom Osborne, Nebraska, Vice Chairman 

James C. Greenwood, Pennsylvania 

Fred Upton, Michigan 

Vernon J. Ehlers, Michigan 

Jim DeMint, South Carolina 

Judy Biggert, Illinois 

Todd Russell Platts, Pennsylvania 

Ric Keller, Florida 

Joe Wilson, South Carolina 

Marilyn N. Musgrave, Colorado 

John A. Boehner, Ohio, ex officio 

Lynn C. Woolsey, California 

Susan A. Davis, California 

Danny K. Davis, Illinois 

Ed Case, Hawaii 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, Arizona 

Ron Kind, Wisconsin 

Dennis J. Kucinich, Ohio 

Chris Van Hollen, Maryland 

Denise L. Majette, Georgia 

George Miller, California, ex officio 

(III)

C O N T E N T S 

Page

Hearing held on April 27, 2004 .............................................................................. 1

Statement of Members: 

Castle, Hon. Michael N., Chairman, Subcommittee on Education Reform, 

Committee on Education and the Workforce .............................................. 1

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 3

Woolsey, Hon. Lynn C., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Education 

Reform, Committee on Education and the Workforce ............................... 3

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 5

Statement of Witnesses: 

Barton, Dr. Thomas E., Jr., President, Greenville Technical and Community College, Greenville, South Carolina .................................................... 17

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 20

Walls–Culotta, Sandra, Principal, Sussex Technical High School, Georgetown, Delaware ............................................................................................. 7

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 10

White, Dr. Roberta, President/CEO, Great Oaks Institute of Technology 

and Career Development, Cincinnati, Ohio ................................................ 12

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 14

Wong, Dr. Carl, Superintendent of Schools, Sonoma County Office of 

Education, Santa Rosa, California .............................................................. 15

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 17

Zwickert, Marie, Area Academy Manager for NE and OH Valley, CISCO 

Systems, Columbia, Maryland ..................................................................... 23

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 26

(1)

EXAMINING SUCCESS IN VOCATIONAL 

EDUCATION 

Tuesday, April 27, 2004

U.S. House of Representatives 

Subcommittee on Education Reform 

Committee on Education and the Workforce 

Washington, DC 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1:07 p.m., in room 

2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mike Castle [Chairman 

of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Castle, Osborne, DeMint, Woolsey, 

Davis of California, and Grijalva. 

Staff Present: Kevin Frank, Professional Staff Member; Alexa 

Marrero, Press Secretary; Stephanie Milburn, Professional Staff 

Member; Krisann Pearce, Deputy Director of Education and 

Human Resources Policy; Alanna Porter, Legislative Assistant; 

Whitney Rhoades, Professional Staff Member; Deborah L. 

Samantar, Committee Clerk/Intern Coordinator; Denise Forte, Minority Legislative Associate/Education; Joe Novotny, Minority Legislative Assistant/Education; and Lynda Theil, Minority Legislative 

Associate/Education. 

Mr. CASTLE. Good afternoon. A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Education Reform of the Committee on Education 

and the Workforce will come to order. 

We are meeting today to hear testimony examining success in vocational education, and this is basically the startup on hearings on 

this leading to a markup later, probably next month. 

Under Committee rule 12(b), opening statements are limited to 

the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member of the Subcommittee. 

If other Members have statements, they may be included in the 

hearing record. 

With that, I ask unanimous consent for the hearing record to remain open 14 days to allow Members’ statements and other extraneous material referenced during the hearing to be submitted in 

the official hearing record. Without objection, so ordered. 

STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL N. CASTLE, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

Thank you for joining us today to hear testimony on successful 

vocational and technical education programs supported by the Carl 

2

D. Perkins Vocational and Technical Education Act. Today’s hearing provides the opportunity to examine the implementation of the 

reforms from the 1998 reauthorization, particularly the academic 

and technical integration highlighted in the law. This is our first 

hearing on vocational and technical education as we look toward 

reauthorization of the Perkins Act. 

The Perkins law provides Federal assistance for secondary and 

postsecondary vocational and technical education programs at the 

high school level and at less than 4-year postsecondary institutions. 

The program provides one of the largest amounts of Federal investment in our Nation’s high schools and is a key component of our 

efforts to provide opportunities for youth and adults to prepare for 

the future by building their academic and technical skills. 

During today’s hearing, we are focusing on the successes the law 

has fostered at both the secondary and postsecondary level. 

Progress has been made since the 1998 reauthorization of the Perkins Act in modernizing vocational and technical education programs by creating an initial performance accountability system and 

strengthening the focus on academic performance among participating students. Whether a student progresses directly to the workforce or goes on to an institution of higher education, it is imperative they have a strong academic base. 

According to the Southern Regional Board, students completing 

a rigorous academic core of courses, coupled with vocational and 

technical education, have test scores that are equal to or higher 

than those of students identified as taking only college preparatory 

coursework. Vocational and technical education students also are 

more likely to pursue postsecondary education, have higher grade 

point averages in college, are less likely to drop out in the first 

year, and have better employment and earnings outcomes than 

other students. 

However, we know that the education supported through the 

Perkins Act needs to reflect the changing reality of our dynamic 

economy. Technology and economic competition are combining in 

unprecedented ways to change education and work and redefine 

the American workplace. Unlike jobs a half century ago, many of 

today’s jobs demand strong academic and technical skills, technological proficiency, and education and training beyond high school. 

Reinforcing this point, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan 

reiterated during a recent full Committee hearing the importance 

of the ‘‘provision of rigorous education and ongoing training to all 

members of our society.’’ 

Today, we begin the process of hearing from individuals who 

have helped transform vocational and technical education. We will 

be hearing from three school districts that will provide us with lessons of how to achieve integration at the local level. In addition, 

we will hear from a technical and community college to learn how 

the school has partnered with the area secondary schools. Finally, 

we will hear from a business representative to learn about industry’s efforts to partner with secondary and community colleges. 

Our challenge during reauthorization of this act will be to ensure 

that all students pursuing vocational and technical education are 

academically prepared for either postsecondary education or employment of their choice. We hope to learn of promising practices 

3

and how your institutions have used the reforms of the last Perkins 

reauthorization to achieve your successes. In addition, I am sure 

you will provide us with useful insight on additional Federal 

changes. Thank you for joining us. 

I will now yield to Congresswoman Woolsey for any opening 

statement she may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Castle follows:]

Statement of Hon. Michael N. Castle, Chairman, Subcommittee on 

Education Reform, Committee on Education and the Workforce

STATEMENT OF HON. LYNN C. WOOLSEY, RANKING MEMBER, 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION REFORM, COMMITTEE ON 

EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE 

Ms. WOOLSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to working with you on this and the Members of the Subcommittee to reauthorize the Carl Perkins Vocational and Technical Education 

Act. 

The Perkins Act is one of the best investments we can make in 

American youth and in the American economy. As we go along, I 

am going to be fighting very hard that we keep WEIE, Women’s 

Equity in Education, included in our reauthorization, not only because it is good for women, but in memory of Patsy Mink, who was 

our hero on that. 


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When the first Federal Vocational-Technical Act was signed into 

law in 1917, its stated purpose was to give young adults an opportunity for better careers and to ensure America’s continuing ability 

to compete economically in the world marketplace. Close to 90 

years later, with all of the changes that have taken place both in 

the American workplace and in the global market, these same 

goals must continue. They have to be the primary goals of vocational and technical education for our country. 

While I certainly support efforts to increase academic achievement for all students, we must not sell short the goals and accomplishments of good vocational and technical education programs, 

programs which just do not prepare students for jobs, but also prepare them for careers. Good vocational and technical programs give 

students the education they need to enter high-skilled, high-wage 

careers, the kinds of careers that are essential to a strong American economy. 

When a vocational education program is working well, students 

do not have to choose between learning academics and learning 

skills, because they actually learn both. A study evaluating California’s career academy programs found that the students who participated actually had a greater increase in their academic knowledge 

than their counterparts in the general secondary education population. 

In our efforts to improve public education, we cannot lose sight 

of the diverse interests and needs of American students. It is not 

a one-size-fits-all world. Not all students learn in the same way, 

and successful vocational education programs significantly reduce 

dropout rates, increase high school graduation rates, and increase 

the number of students who go on to postsecondary education, as 

well as going on to careers which actually pay a livable wage. 

I look forward to hearing how our witnesses use Perkins funds 

to support technical and vocational education programs which meet 

their students’ career and academic goals. I hope we will also hear 

some very good new suggestions on what we can do in this reauthorization to improve the Perkins Act, particularly ways that we 

can increase access to training for nontraditional careers and any 

other changes that we can make that will give more young Americans an opportunity to go and get the American dream. 

I welcome all of you. I am anxious to hear your testimony. Thank 

you very much for coming. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Woolsey follows:]

5

Statement of Hon. Lynn C. Woolsey, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 

Education Reform, Committee on Education and the Workforce

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Ms. Woolsey. 

We also thank Mr. Osborne, the vice chair of the Committee, and 

Mr. Grijalva and Mr. DeMint for being here as well. We look forward to a distinguished panel of witnesses. 

I am going to start the introductions with the pride of Delaware, 

Ms. Sandy Walls-Culotta, who is the Principal of Sussex Technical 

High School located in Georgetown, Delaware. 

Prior to her taking on the principalship 4 years ago, she was one 

of the three assistant principals at the school. Prior to joining Sussex Tech’s administration, she was program coordinator, Principal 

of the School for Adolescent Special Education Students housed 

within the Sussex Technical School district. 

In her spare time, she teaches career technical education courses 

for Wilmington College and works at schools throughout the country to help improve programs for their students. 

Several of the witnesses here today are going to be introduced by 

Members. I will introduce Dr. White and then Ms. Woolsey will introduce Dr. Wong. 


93384.012
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Dr. Roberta White is President and CEO of the Great Oaks Institute of Technology and Career Development in southwest Ohio. Dr. 

White taught for 17 years in suburban school districts outside Dayton and Cincinnati, Ohio. She sits on several national boards dealing with two of her major concerns: business education partnerships and vocational assessment. As Great Oaks’ CEO since January of 2003, Dr. White has increased parent involvement, strengthened core academics and promoted collaborative partnerships with 

business and postsecondary institutions. 

At this time, I yield to Ms. Woolsey to introduce the next witness 

on our panel. 

Ms. WOOLSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

We have a pride in our community also, and his name is Dr. Carl 

Wong. Dr. Wong is the Superintendent of Schools for Sonoma 

County, California, one of the two counties that I represent north 

of the Golden Gate Bridge. 

Sonoma County’s public school system is comprised of 40 school 

districts with a combined student population of over 73,000. In this 

locally elected position, Dr. Wong provides county-wide leadership 

to support the success of the student schools and districts of 

Sonoma County. 

I have worked with Dr. Wong for many years. In fact, Carl Wong 

was the Superintendent of the Petaluma High School District, 

where I lived for many years, before he was elected to the county 

position. He was well respected there, and he is well respected in 

his new position by educators and students alike. 

He is terrific about letting my staff and me know when there is 

something we need to be doing to make vocational education better 

at the Federal level, and I so appreciate that. 

Dr. Wong, thank you for making the effort to be here today. I 

know it was difficult, and I am pleased my colleagues will have the 

opportunity to benefit from your knowledge and your experience. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Mrs. Woolsey. 

Welcome, Dr. Wong. 

Mr. DeMint will introduce our next witness, Dr. Barton. 

Mr. DEMINT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We do have also here 

the pride of South Carolina, Dr. Tom Barton, a great friend of 

mine, legendary in our State for many reasons. Dr. Barton went to 

Clemson University where he played football under the legendary 

Frank Howard. He has been inducted into the South Carolina Athletic Hall of Fame. He completed his doctorate at Duke University 

and served in public education for years and was part of the early 

stages of development of Greenville Technical College. He is now 

the longest-serving president of a 2-year college in this country. 

Tom Barton is known throughout the State. He has been given 

almost every award in the State from Person of the Year to Top 

Educator, and he has been a real innovator, most importantly in 

education. He has demonstrated, I think, as much as any other 

person, through the Greenville Tech institution how applied learning, career, contextual-type learning can teach academics in a better way. 

He has been a major part of helping to develop the economy of 

the upstate of South Carolina by training workforces for new companies like BMW and Michelin that have moved in, and he has 

7

done something that I think will set the pace in the rest of the 

State by actually starting a charter high school as a part of Greenville Tech. And the first graduating class of that high school had 

the highest exit exams of reading and writing in the school district, 

second in the State. One hundred percent of those students went 

on to college and many went on to their second year of college. 

Through his innovation, we are seeing better ways to educate in 

higher education, but to take applied learning into high school and 

maybe even middle school someday to engage students in a way 

that we have not so far. 

Dr. Barton, thank you for traveling up here. I am certainly looking forward to your testimony. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Mr. DeMint. 

Welcome, Dr. Barton. 

Our final witness is Marie Zwickert who is the Area Academy 

Manager for the CISCO Networking Academy program for CISCO 

Systems, Inc., Ms. Zwickert manages the implementation of the 

CISCO Networking Academy program in the Northeast and Ohio 

Valley. She works with other secondary and postsecondary and 

other nonprofit educational entities to ensure their success relative 

to implementing the CISCO Networking Academy program. 

Prior to her employment with CISCO Systems, Inc., Ms. Zwickert 

was the Assistant Director of Professional Development for Tri-Rivers Education Computer Association located in Ohio. 

We welcome you also. You will be the cleanup hitter here. 

Mr. CASTLE. Before the witnesses begin, let me tell you what will 

happen. You will each have 5 minutes. You will have a green light 

for 4 minutes, a yellow light for 1 minute, and then a red a minute 

thereafter. When the red light goes on, you might think about 

wrapping it up, and then each of us will have 5 minutes of questions and answers. So obviously we are looking for relatively brief 

answers to get in as many questions as possible. If we decide another round of questions is in order, we will go to it, but we will 

make that decision later. 

I think you can sort of sense this is a relatively friendly hearing, 

and I say relatively because we never know what is going to happen. But you are all individuals who have succeeded in taking vocational education and producing students who are achieving. We 

want to know what the key to that success is, what have we done 

right and what do we need to change. We look forward to your testimony and will ask you some questions. Hopefully, you will get us 

off to a good start as we begin the reauthorization of an important 

piece of legislation. 

Ms. Walls-Culotta, you may begin. 

STATEMENT OF SANDRA WALLS-CULOTTA, PRINCIPAL, SUSSEX TECHNICAL HIGH SCHOOL, GEORGETOWN, DELAWARE 

Ms. WALLS-CULOTTA. Thank you for your invitation to testify 

today. 

I wish to provide to the Subcommittee with actual experiences 

from my school, Sussex Tech High School, to show how effective career technical education can make a significant difference for all 

students in their academic achievement when integrated with academics. I would like to emphasize that this type of educational proVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:20 Oct 18, 2004 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 H:\DOCS\93384 EDUWK PsN: NNIXON
8

gramming needs to continue so that all students are successful in 

meeting the requirements of No Child Left Behind. 

Sussex Technical High School began as a shared-time vocational 

center in rural southern Delaware. The center’s mission was to 

serve part-time students from seven independent feeder school districts. By the mid-1980’s there were serious flaws. After 3 years of 

intensive planning through the utilization of frameworks provided 

by the National Center For Research in Vocational Education and 

the Southern Regional Educational Board’s ‘‘High Schools That 

Work,’’ the problem-laden shared-time concept was discarded. Sussex Tech became a High School That Works site, and followed that 

reform model. In September 1991, the center was changed to a 

comprehensive technical high school for students in grades 9 

through 12. 

The new school offers innovative concepts such as block scheduling, common planning for teachers, structured programs of study, 

career majors of strong and relevant college prep academic programs, and an integrated curriculum. Sussex Tech has been transformed from an area shared-time vocational school with declining 

student enrollment, low academic achievement, to a restructured 

clustered high school that offers students challenging integrated 

curriculum. 

Today, Sussex Tech has more than 1,200 students, and at 

present, we have more than 300 students on the waiting list for 

next year’s freshman class. 

Sussex Tech was organized around four clusters, which provides 

a natural vehicle for students to develop specific skills in small 

learning communities. Similar career programs are grouped into 

technical clusters. The four clusters are automotive technologies, 

health and human services, communication and information technologies, and industrial engineering. Each student has a 3-year 

program of study that outlines their academic and technical 

coursework that is required for that particular cluster. 

The clusters are managed by two managers, one being a technical teacher and one being an academic instructor. The cluster 

provides facilitation for ongoing improvement, implementation of 

the integrated curriculum, and instruction in overall school improvement. All clusters have a common planning time each day for 

the teachers to gather to discuss students, provide peer support, 

and develop better integrated activities. Our master schedule is developed so that all students with a specific cluster are scheduled 

into the same classes. 

The heart of the program at Sussex Tech is the integration of 

academic and technical instruction. The term ‘‘techademic’’ was 

coined by an English teacher at our school to demonstrate the goal 

of integrating a career technical curriculum with academics. 

All of our students are required to complete a minimum of 28 

credits for graduation. Juniors are required to complete a research 

paper based on a topic from their technical area which is graded 

both by the English and the technical instructors. Seniors must 

complete a senior project which is composed of a research paper, 

a product that is built or produced and an oral presentation. In the 

oral presentation, to make sure students have communication 

skills, they must present in front of a panel of academic and techVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:20 Oct 18, 2004 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 H:\DOCS\93384 EDUWK PsN: NNIXON
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nical teachers, administrative staff, and representatives from the 

business community. 

Reform efforts at Sussex Tech have been ongoing since 1988. 

Since reform efforts began, the administration has placed a strong 

emphasis on professional development and the hiring of teachers 

who want to find ways to integrate the curriculum and work in 

teams across disciplines. 

School reform and a full-time, comprehensive technical high 

school model has shown to be successful at Sussex Tech. Since 

1993, Sussex Tech students have gained significantly in their academic achievement. On the Delaware Student Testing program, we 

are normally in the top three in the State. Our math scores for students meeting or exceeding standards have risen dramatically, and 

in all areas. Our attendance rate is 96 percent, our dropout is 1.7. 

Our graduation rate is 96 percent. 

Sussex Tech High School is a model that demonstrates that 

sound integration of academics and career technical coursework 

does assist students in improving academic achievement. Academic 

instructors cannot do it alone. Career technical instructors are the 

missing link for students who have become frustrated with academics during their school careers. This link provides students reasons for learning algebraic equations, Ohm’s law, the United States 

Constitution, and learning to write correctly so one’s thoughts are 

understood. Career technical education does have an extremely important part in assisting all students to meet and exceed academic 

standards. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Walls-Culotta follows:]

10

Statement of Sandra Walls–Culotta, Principal, Sussex Technical High 

School, Georgetown, Delaware


93384.004
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Mr. CASTLE. Dr. White. 

STATEMENT OF DR. ROBERTA WHITE, PRESIDENT/CEO, GREAT 

OAKS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY AND CAREER DEVELOPMENT, CINCINNATI, OHIO 

Dr. WHITE. Chairman Castle and Members of the Committee, 

thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify about the benefits of the Perkins legislation. 

In today’s competitive global economy, employers need and are 

demanding that employees have higher levels of academic and 

technical skills. The Perkins legislation is invaluable to Great Oaks 

and other career and technical school districts in preparing students to succeed. 

Great Oaks is a public school that provides career and technical 

education programs for 36 school districts in 12 counties in southwest Ohio. Each year we educate over 3,000 junior and senior high 

school students on our four career campuses in full-day programs, 

and another 3,000 students in technology programs we offer in 

their home schools. Over 50,000 adults enroll in programs and 

services we provide at Great Oaks each year. We work closely with 

more than 1,000 employers in postsecondary institutions to keep 

our programs on the cutting edge. 

The Perkins legislation recognized that businesses and postsecondary institutions were demanding more rigorous academic and 

technical skills from their employees and students. The Perkins Act 

directly addressed this need by requiring that core academics be integrated into the technical curriculum. In response, Great Oaks has 

made and continues to make significant improvements in the curriculum and in the way we deliver it. We now prepare students for 

both careers and for continuing education. 

The first significant improvement is the increased emphasis on 

more rigorous, integrated academics. General math and science 

classes have evolved in advanced algebra, calculus, microbiology 

and anatomy. Competencies are aligned with the standards of the 

Ohio Department of Education, industry certifications and postsecondary requirements. Teams of teachers, both academic and technical, collaborate to ensure these competencies are integrated into 

their curricula. 

The value of career and technical education is that students have 

an opportunity to learn a concept in a variety of ways. In math and 

physics, a construction student learns about loads and vectors and 

then applies them in her lab. 

The second major improvement in our delivery system is an increased emphasis on continuing education. Since the Perkins Act 

was last reauthorized, Great Oaks has seen the percentage of graduates who continue to go immediately into postsecondary education 

nearly double. In 1998, about 20 percent of our graduates went directly into postsecondary education. In 2003, over 35 percent did. 

Great Oaks has 132 articulation agreements with postsecondary institutions and apprenticeship programs throughout the country. 

Through these agreements, students earn advanced credit in their 

areas of specialization. 

Our goal is to enable students to move seamlessly from Great 

Oaks to a postsecondary institution and to arrive with about 35 

13

hours of college credit already in place. Students from our police 

academy can enter Xavier University with 24 college credits and 

those in health technology can receive 26 college credits at the University of Cincinnati. Because Perkins III created core performance 

measures within a year of graduation, 98 percent of our graduates 

are employed, continuing on to postsecondary education or both. 

Our third significant improvement is an individualized academic 

plan for each student. We are customizing each student’s career 

path, constantly measuring student progress and providing intervention services as needed. Students, their parents, teachers and 

counselors agree on a plan that outlines what students need to 

graduate and to continue on a specific career path. 

For over 20 years, the Perkins Act has regularly given career and 

technical education goals in workforce development that enable us 

to meet the needs of employers and thereby better prepare our students for careers. Perkins funds help us in targeted and important 

ways, including professional development for instructors, placement 

for high school and adult students, support for students with disabilities, and career education services. 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to tell you about our 

success with Perkins, and about the opportunities for continuing 

that success. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Dr. White. We appreciate your testimony as well. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. White follows:]

14

Statement of Roberta White, President/CEO, Great Oaks Institute of 

Technology and Career Development, Cincinnati, Ohio


93384.006
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Mr. CASTLE. Dr. Wong. 

STATEMENT OF DR. CARL WONG, SONOMA COUNTY SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, SONOMA COUNTY OFFICE OF 

EDUCATION, SANTA ROSA, CALIFORNIA 

Dr. WONG. Good afternoon, honorable Members of the Subcommittee on Education Reform. My name is Carl Wong, County 

Superintendent of Schools in Sonoma County. On behalf of our 

county, our 40 school districts, our 73,000 students, I express my 

appreciation for this opportunity to address the Subcommittee on 

the topic of examining success in vocational education. 

I began my education career 33 years ago as a high school industrial arts teacher, but I have more of a personal connection. When 

I was in high school, I took all of the industrial arts courses possible. Upon graduation from high school, I served a 4-year apprenticeship at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, California, and 

actually am a journeyman machinist by trade. With that background, my testimony today is both from a personal and professional perspective. 

I would like to focus on how schools in Sonoma County are integrating vocational and technical education with our rigorous academic standards, as adopted by the State of California. 

There are 15 comprehensive high schools in Sonoma County 

serving over 23,000 students in grades 9-12. All of the high schools 

in the county do receive Perkins funding, and the Perkins fund is 

complemented by State general funds, district general funds; and 

we also integrate the Perkins funds with the Regional Occupational 

Program, more commonly known as ROP, which is a California 

State-funded program specifically for vocational preparation, and 

also the tech-prep program which is aligned with our local community college. 

The Santa Rosa Junior College is one of the largest in California. 

We have a junior college enrollment exceeding 30,000 students in 

our county. Our county has a long history of both coordination and 

collaboration between the various institutions, including the California State University located in Sonoma County. 

We encourage and have active representation, including myself, 

on the Sonoma County Workforce Investment Board. We have a 

local youth council. We are actively represented on the Sonoma 

County Business Education Round Table and, of course, the Schoolto-Careers Advisory Board. We are also members of the Sonoma 


93384.007
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County Economic Development Board, and I sit on the California 

State Youth Council. 

Employer advisory councils are also convened on an annual basis 

to validate our high school career pathways which incorporate vocational and technical preparation, along with college preparation 

coursework and work-based learning experiences. These include job 

shadow opportunities, both paid and nonpaid internships. 

Sonoma County’s proximity to Silicon Valley and the Bay Area 

and our local telecommunications industry has resulted in significant transformation of the vocational funds provided by Perkins in 

more of a nontraditional manner. Even prior to the No Child Left 

Behind Act, our local governing boards, school districts, and superintendents were already embracing the notion that English proficiency and strong academics needed to be a priority. Furthermore, 

we are beginning year 7 of Statewide academic standards which include advanced college preparatory mathematics and science 

courses which are available on all of our comprehensive campuses. 

We no longer differentiate between a student’s path through high 

school as characterized by either college bound or work bound. Our 

prevailing philosophy and practice is the integration of workforce 

and academic skills so that education is essentially career, technical, and vocational education. 

Our Perkins-funded course work, along with our regional occupational programs and community college tech-prep classes, are calibrated to reflect current business and industry standards. We work 

collaboratively with our local unions and nonunions to develop career pathways that reflect the global workforce of the 21st century. 

Academic rigor and workplace relevancy are interconnected. The 

Perkins Act funding serves to leverage and link a student’s comprehensive high school experience to support the notion that academics applied is indeed academics learned. 

I commend the Subcommittee holding these hearings to receive 

input directly from the field. As a former teacher, guidance counselor, high school principal and district superintendent, I can assure you that Perkins funding is invaluable in supporting the integration of vocational and technical skills and academics. As a county superintendent, I clearly understand the spirit and intent of the 

legislation and take the necessary professional responsibility and 

prudent application of the funds. 

I thank you for this opportunity to provide testimony on this important matter. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Dr. Wong. We appreciate your testimony, too. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Wong follows:]

17

Statement of Carl Wong, Superintendent of Schools, Sonoma County Office 

of Education, Santa Rosa, California

Mr. CASTLE. Dr. Barton. 

STATEMENT OF DR. THOMAS E. BARTON, JR., PRESIDENT, 

GREENVILLE TECHNICAL AND COMMUNITY COLLEGE, 

GREENVILLE, SOUTH CAROLINA 

Dr. BARTON. First of all, I want to tell you how I feel about being 

here. I think it is certainly an opportunity for us to say some 

things to such a group of people that represent so many other people that it is a real honor to be here. 

Ms. Woolsey, I happened to hear in your presentation about 

WEIE, and we totally support what you said. We just used WEIE 

in a special project of what we call ‘‘Quick Jobs’’ in the upstate of 

South Carolina, and out of 5,100 people that did not have jobs—

they were at the 8th grade level; all the textile industry is gone, 


93384.008
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and these people were the remnants left over there—4,200 of them 

got jobs. That fits the WEIE concept that you said there. I wanted 

to say that. 

Mr. Chairman, I met you many years ago with Jack Owens, if 

you remember the name, and I know you do. We had the honor to 

help you and Jack Owens and the fine people in Georgetown to 

build a university center on one of your community college campuses. That was an honor for us. 

The system that we represent in South Carolina, by the way, has 

had tremendous support, and one of them is in this room, Congressman DeMint. I am personally honored by his complimentary 

remarks about me. I work with a lot of great people, and I am just 

one of them. We make a very good team. Our mission is very important for our State. 

We come from a poor State. Forty, 50 years ago, all we had was 

textiles in the upstate and agriculture in the low state. The textiles 

are gone. The low state is still in agriculture, most of it, not all of 

it. 

It is growing in the upstate in the high tech area tremendously 

fast. The corridor between Raleigh-Durham and Atlanta is in one 

of the 20 top growth corridors in the world. It is growing with foreign industries—German industries, British industry, Canadian industry, Japanese industry—the list goes on ad infinitum. We are 

in the middle of all of that, and we are trying to use these community colleges and technical colleges to train the masses of our people that are not going into these universities, to train these people 

and give them the necessary skills; and it has been said by some 

of these fine people here, we are giving them the skills now to go 

into an industry that requires more brain power than it does 

brawn. 

And that is happening, and you know that, Mr. Chairman; you 

mentioned that, as far as the technology and how it is driving all 

of this. It is influencing and affecting our economy tremendously. 

We started out with a simple concept. We were going to go out 

in the world and find this industry and bring them to South Carolina. That is what we were trying to do. We have done quite well 

with that—‘‘we,’’ meaning the State Department of Commerce and 

many, many others, people that are involved with industry and industrial development. 

We work closely with them, but when we see these industries 

face to face, we say, whatever your needs are to get you in business 

and make you successful in South Carolina, we are going to do it. 

That is our bottom line, and it is working beautifully and we have 

not failed. We get the support of the legislature. We get the support of Congress and people like Congressman DeMint. It is working better than I think a lot of people realize. 

I am going to take this time to invite any of these Members, if 

you ever want to come to our part of the State and talk to our industrial leaders and get inside the big, sophisticated plants, you 

are going to be more than welcome to come and see us. We open 

up partnerships every day. We open up partnerships in our school 

systems, in our hospital systems, in our industries, in our governments, all of these things we are interfacing with constantly. But 

the one I am to report on today is the education side. 

19

I look at education as a seamless system that starts at the kindergarten level and runs all of the way through the 16 years. We 

are all in the same boat. It is an upward mobility throughout the 

system. I think it is something that we have got to accept that 

there is no separation. We are all working toward the same thing 

and working toward educating the masses of those young people, 

to get them ready for a university or a fine technical job in some 

of these sophisticated industries. 

I am going to give you a few very important projects. I mentioned 

one quickly, a university center that now serves approximately 

5,000 people in the Greenville area that started out because we did 

not have a major university in that city. We now have seven State 

universities in that city. We bought a 600,000-square-foot mall to 

put them in, and that has been an outstanding project and that 

leads back to these young kids that are coming through our system 

in the end. 

In conclusion, we are saying, yes, you need Perkins money; yes, 

you need new industries; yes, you need jobs; yes, we need all of 

these things. And, yes, we need Congress’ support and the support 

of State legislators, local governments, local industries, we need all 

of that to make this work. I plead with you to continue doing those 

things. It helps education, our schools, our community colleges, our 

career centers, our vocational high schools and so on. 

I am honored to be here. Thank you. 

[The prepared statement of Dr. Barton follows:]

20

Statement of Thomas E. Barton, Jr., President, Greenville Technical and 

Community College, Greenville, South Carolina


93384.001
21


93384.002
22


93384.003
23

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you, Dr. Barton. Thank you for bringing up 

the memory of our mutual friend, Jack Owens, who was a master 

of getting whatever he wanted out of our legislature. I was Governor when he kept getting a higher percentage than he should 

have gotten. 

I imagine you do the same thing, and I congratulate you. It helps 

our young people. 

Ms. Zwickert. 

STATEMENT OF MARIE ZWICKERT, AREA ACADEMY MANAGER 

FOR NE AND OH VALLEY, CISCO SYSTEMS, COLUMBIA, 

MARYLAND 

Ms. ZWICKERT. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I 

am pleased to appear before you today to share our company’s perspective on the role and importance of career and technical education in America. 

I represent CISCO Systems, the worldwide leader in Internet 

technologies. CISCO hardware, software and service offerings are 

used to create Internet solutions that allow individuals, companies 

and countries to increase productivity, improve customer satisfaction, and strengthen competitive advantage. We have over 34,000 

employees worldwide. During fiscal year 2003, our revenue totaled 

$18 billion. 

Over the years, CISCO’s name has become synonymous with the 

Internet, since we are involved with every type of application. We 

would like to say CISCO is changing the way people work, live, 

play and learn. 

CISCO’s success is not ultimately the result of a product. We are 

a knowledge-based company. We are only as successful as our people are knowledgeable and skilled. For this reason, we have always 

had partnerships with education. 

Concerned about the long-term capabilities of our workforce and 

that of our business partners and customers, CISCO launched the 

CISCO Networking Academy program in 1997, a comprehensive Elearning program which is designed to teach students Internet 

technology skills. It has been developed and delivered by educators 

and industry professionals, and the program provides a combination of Web-based curriculum, instructor-led learning, online assessments, student performance tracking, hands-on labs, instructor 

training and support, and preparation for industry standard certification. As a result, students can apply classroom learning to actual 

technology challenges which ultimately prepare tomorrow’s workforce for lifelong learning opportunities and motivate them to continue their learning. 

Now in its sixth year, the Networking Academy has more than 

10,000 academies in 152 countries with over 400,000 participating 

students. In the United States, we have over 4,000 academies with 

over 100,000 participating students. As you can tell, CISCO is by 

no means a marginal partner in this endeavor. 

Based upon our 6 years of experience with the program, I would 

like to share with you five key elements for programmatic success. 

One is academic rigor and technical know-how. There is no way 

around high academic skills when working in our industry. Without a strong foundation in math, science and reading, a student 

24

cannot pursue the most basic career path. All our curricula are 

founded upon high academic rigor. Students apply this academic 

foundation to technical concepts and knowledge. By applying academic basics to networks and other technology skills, the Academy 

program further develops students’ math, science, writing, and 

problem-solving abilities. 

Our curriculum also provides academic and technical competencies. To promote a well-rounded educational experience, the 

Academy curriculum is aligned with U.S. national and State math, 

science and language arts standards, as well as workforce competencies. We have invested in a sophisticated online data base 

that crosswalks State academic standards with learning targets of 

our respective courses. In other words, we answer the age-old question: Why do I have to learn this? 

Our second important element is assessment designed to support 

learning. We use Internet technologies that help support assessment. The assessment is designed to provide immediate and ongoing feedback to our students and teachers regarding proficiencies 

in specified knowledge and skills. The feedback allows teachers to 

modify and adjust their institutional approach, and the assessment 

strategy is designed to inform or improve learning as well as hold 

students and teachers accountable for results. 

The third element that is important is alignment to industry 

standards and certification. Our curriculum prepares students for 

industry standards, hence enriching the skill set required to succeed in a global economy. All academic curriculums are matched to 

major certification in the IT industry, both vendor and nonvendor. 

Fourth is seamless, lifelong learning. The Academy program has 

been adopted by and integrated into a full spectrum of learning. It 

is offered by high schools, community colleges, universities and 

community-based organizations. There is a natural connection between secondary, postsecondary and corporate learning. This connection allows for students to launch careers in the industry which 

can include transition to work and to postsecondary. 

The fifth one is fostering digital opportunities. We understand 

that the digital divide can be bridged through education and the 

Internet, two great equalizers in this century. Diversifying our 

workforce is crucial to creating and maintaining skilled workers 

that our country will come to depend upon. 

More must be done to ensure that all members of our Nation’s 

workforce have equal access to employment opportunities within 

the IT sector. Realizing this challenge, we have been working to 

achieve digital equity in underserved areas that benefit low-income 

individuals, certain ethnic groups, people in disadvantaged communities, and people with disabilities. 

CISCO has established a gender equity project to address the 

gender divide that seeks ways to increase women’s access to IT 

training and career opportunities. We partner with educational institutions around the world to collect and disseminate best practices on recruitment and retention strategies. Based upon the research that we do on an ongoing basis, we are developing tools and 

resources such as a gender module for teachers of our programs, 

marketing materials, gender Web sites, media presentations and 

25

role models designed to attract and retain more women in the IT 

field. 

In conclusion, CISCO Systems, with other business and industry, 

is committed to working in partnership with career and technical 

education to help provide the highest quality of information technology programs available to our students and this country. We 

strongly encourage you to consider the importance of the Federal 

role in supporting career and technical education programs. 

As an industry that is concerned about its workforce’s future, we 

support high quality career and technical education programs at 

the secondary and postsecondary level that integrate academic and 

technical skill attainment, encourage women to pursue nontraditional careers, support students of diverse backgrounds and partner with business and industry to provide youth and adults of this 

country the opportunity to be successful in our workplace. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Zwickert follows:]

26

Statement of Marie Zwickert, Area Academy Manager for NE and OH 

Valley, CISCO Systems, Columbia, Maryland


93384.009
27

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you. 

You have been a wonderful panel. You make a very strong case 

for the Perkins Act legislation and funding. We get that message 

loud and clear. 

I yield myself 5 minutes to start the questioning. I would like to 

address my first question and maybe my second question, too, to 

Ms. Walls-Culotta and Dr. White and maybe Dr. Wong. 

Moving off No Child Left Behind, I am worried about children 

left behind. This is sort of counterintuitive for me because I am always talking about the need for academics. Now I am concerned 

maybe we have overdone it. 

For example, in the case of Sussex Vo-Tech, you are turning 

down 300 kids. You are all talking about the academics and that 

kind of thing. 

I have a friend who is a master carpenter and a great fisherman. 

Looking at a pond, he can tell you things about that pond that I 

would not see in a million years. And I am sure—I don’t know this 

for a fact, but I believe that he is not that well educated, but probably had a great deal of interest in the vocational end of it. 

My concern is, what kind of education would have been open for 

him? Are we overstressing the academic side of this? I want to 

make sure we are not leaving some kids behind that may not be 

able to handle these things. 

Make me feel better about the balance of all of this. 

Ms. WALLS-CULOTTA. At Sussex Tech, we accept all students. 

They have to be passing in one marking period all of their courses, 

and that is with a 70. We do not ask for A’s and B’s. We want a 

very diverse group of students. 

In our curriculum, we make sure that it is not all academic 

based, and it is really geared to their technical programs. We have 

auto students that when I go out and work with them in the shop 

areas, they really could care less what is happening in English, but 

when you can tie it to a car magazine or technical journal and have 

them write about it, they do not think they are doing English, they 

think they are doing automotive. 


93384.010
28

We would like to take all 600 students, but we are up to seven 

trailers, and we just had an addition 3 years ago. We can only take 

so many. 

Mr. CASTLE. Dr. White. 

Dr. WHITE. As we look at our individual academic plan, we sit 

down and have a conversation with every student as they come to 

Great Oaks. By doing that, we can determine where that student 

has deficiencies and what that student needs. We have a motto 

that ‘‘one size does not fit all,’’ so we are very careful to make sure 

that we meet their academic needs through a variety of ways. 

As Ms. Walls-Culotta stated, our students do learn their academics better, more comprehensively, when they are engaged in 

something that they care about. We also look for other ways to 

meet their needs. 

Virtual academics is a way that we often meet students’ needs 

at Great Oaks. They may relate better to a computer program rather than a classroom and individual teacher. We look for any way 

to help individual students, any way we can. 

Mr. CASTLE. Dr. Wong. 

Dr. WONG. It has been said that quality education is in the national interest. However, it is a State responsibility. 

One of the issues you have raised in terms of who monitors and 

who advocates so no child gets left behind really is looking at a 

State structure. In California, we have over 6 million students in 

our K-12 public schools. So 6 million students, residing in over 

1,000 school districts, the structure in California that helps ensure 

that there is an advocacy and a degree of universal attention given 

to those students is through a county delivery model. There are 58 

counties in California, and within those 58 counties, there are 58 

county offices of education and 58 county superintendents. 

So for Congresswoman Woolsey to calibrate what is happening in 

her two counties, she has to contact two county superintendents. 

That level of accountability and that level of oversight and leadership really ensures that when we look at those scales, 6.5 million 

students that those 58 counties are monitoring, working with those 

individual districts, looking at a specific county, district-by-district, 

school-by-school performance data to ensure that students are 

being given access and equity to both academics and workforce 

preparation. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you very much. My time is running out, but 

let me ask about No Child Left Behind. 

I am cognizant of the fact that it primarily applies to children 

before they get to vo-tech high schools, although as I recall, we 

have 1 year after 8th grade that has to be tested. The President 

is talking about testing in 12th grade. I would be interested in how 

you are handling that issue in your schools. Any problems on that, 

complications, or has it a relatively minor impact at the vocationaltechnical level? 

Ms. WALLS-CULOTTA. No Child Left Behind has made us look at 

how we deliver our math programming because we found that is 

where our students were having the most difficulty. As a separate 

school district in Delaware, we are basically the only school besides 

the adult ed division, so we do receive Title 1 funds, and we have 

29

now changed from reading to mathematics because of our students’ 

needs. 

We have had to add additional time to the day to expand our periods so we can double-dose our math because students coming in 

to us that were below standard, we did not want to take away from 

the technical programs that they were in because we felt that made 

a better connection for them, but we had to figure out another way 

to provide more math instruction. 

Under the accountability system, even though we continue to improve our scores, our students are going on to postsecondary programs. They are earning tech-prep credits. My school will be under 

school improvement this year because one of our special ed cells 

cannot make the requirements. This will be 2 years in a row, even 

though we have done a lot of great things for 1,180 students; we 

have the 40 who are doing the best in the State, but we can’t take 

credit for that. 

Mr. CASTLE. It is No Child Left Behind. I appreciate what you 

are doing. 

Dr. Barton.

Dr. BARTON. Let me add one comment. We have a large number 

of people that come out of our high schools. A lot of them drop out 

before they finish high school, and they come on to the community 

college. We test all of those people to decide what achievement 

level they have reached. A large number do not reach the requirements to move into programs like nursing and electronics and 

many of the more sophisticated programs. 

We have a large division of remediation or developmental studies 

that we channel these people through. They can come any hour of 

the day, night or weekends. 

A lot is self-paced technology that we are using. Somewhere like 

3,000 a month go through this system. Every week we put out at 

least 100 of them that go into the program of their choice and have 

reached that level to leave the remediation program and go into the 

program of their choice. 

They can do and are doing it. The technology is in place to get 

it done; that is one major thing. We are in a salvaging process, if 

you want to use that term, but that is what we are doing. 

Mr. CASTLE. I hope to do it sooner. My time has run out, but Dr. 

White and Dr. Wong, any comments? 

Dr. WHITE. Relative to No Child Left Behind and increased testing, it certainly has focused us in the area of professional development. It is no longer what we used to call ‘‘feel good’’ professional 

development. Now we look at how students scored on the assessment, and we determine how to redirect our teaching so we can 

meet the needs of those students. 

Mr. CASTLE. Dr. Wong, your mission is a little wider. 

Dr. WONG. We do recognize that the reauthorization of 1998 did 

compel all school districts to look at the integration of relevancy as 

well as academic rigor. I believe all school districts in California 

have taken that to heart. We no longer see relevance and rigor to 

be exclusive of each other. 

Mr. CASTLE. Thank you. 

Ms. Woolsey. 

30

Ms. WOOLSEY. Thank you very much. I want to say something 

to Ms. Zwickert first. CISCO is in my district, and I am sure they 

participate on Dr. Wong’s Education Round Table. They are an outstanding employer in the telecom industry for us, and we thank 

you. I am pretty sure they are part of the one economic effort that 

is going on to bring underprivileged women into the digital age, 

and I congratulate you for that also. 

My question is for Dr. Wong and Dr. Barton. You all mentioned 

how you are working with industry, but I would like to ask both 

of you to talk about how your process works in determining which 

educational programs are the most beneficial to your students. And 

at the same time, do you look into—like, Dr. Wong represents a 

very, very high income, high-cost-of-living area. Do you look at how 

a person can earn a living that they can actually raise a family on 

when you are deciding which programs to train? 

Dr. WONG. Well, I agree, when you are looking at a complex 

issue like workforce preparation, you have to look at regions of a 

given State. I think part of the delivery model in terms of the Perkins funding is to look at maybe specific counties, work very closely 

with the local Chamber, the local economic development board. 

Each and every county in California has a Workforce Investment 

Board, and most county superintendents actually have a seat appointed by the Board of Supervisors on that Workforce Investment 

Board. That is an example of a regional approach that is sensitive 

to labor market demands in a State as complex as California. 

Dr. BARTON. I will say that the one thing that you need to hear 

that we are doing, that might be beneficial: in order to run something as large as this institution with some 70 different programs, 

and all of them rather complex and tied into the heart of industry 

and some of the biggest industries in the country, you have to have 

some real technical support to do this. 

What we did many, many years ago was to design a system of 

advisory boards made up of these people from hospital systems, industries, cut across the entire community, and we now have some 

60-plus boards and these people are really volunteers for us. They 

are not paid, of course, and they are very committed to what they 

are doing. 

A lot comes down from the management level in these factories 

and hospitals, doctors and dentists and lawyers and police. These 

people keep us abreast of the technology, the kind of equipment 

that we have to have, the modifications of curriculums, curriculums 

that do not need to be there any more, that are outdated, the jobs 

are not plentiful. All of this comes under these boards and all of 

this is fed right into our system, along with augmenting it with 

many other things, as just pointed out. 

When we get all of this kind of information, it is relatively easy 

to keep up with the job market and what they are doing. 

Ms. WOOLSEY. And stay in front of it and not behind it because 

you can get people trained, and the jobs are not there any more. 

Dr. White. 

Dr. WHITE. I agree with Dr. Barton. Having close industry involvement is key, as well as looking at market labor information. 

If you have a program that is no longer meeting the needs of the 

31

community and serving the public, you need to divest out of that 

program. 

Ms. WOOLSEY. I want to ask how these programs are working for 

young women. I have legislation called Go Girl, trying to encourage 

young girls from 4th grade on to stay in the math, science and 

technology fields because they lose interest. That is half of our 

workforce. 

Somewhere in your testimony, Ms. Zwickert, you said 50 percent 

of the workforce is female, only 20 percent are in these technical 

jobs. Is there anything in your programs that is encouraging young 

women? 

Ms. ZWICKERT. We have a strategy called The Gender Initiative, 

and we are trying to promote awareness at the high school level 

for young women so they realize what opportunities are available. 

So, for example, we have—in the Boston public schools, we work 

specifically with the community college, and on a yearly basis we 

provide a Technology Forum where we bring in female systems engineers to work with these middle school and high school girls to 

educate them accordingly. 

Quite honestly, the guidance counselors also need to be educated 

because many of the guidance counselors are not familiar with 

what is available. One of our strategies has been to develop a Web 

site with a tool kit so we can share it with guidance counselors and 

teachers accordingly. 

Mr. CASTLE. Mr. Osborne, you are recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. OSBORNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a very brief 

question. I don’t know if anybody can answer it. 

I represent primarily a rural district. There has been a lot of emphasis on academic rigor and what you are doing to get people up 

to speed in terms of today’s economy. You know, a combine costs about $200,000. If you know how to 

fix it yourself, it makes a lot of difference as opposed to sitting out 

in the field. A new tractor is $100,000, and if you know how to 

weld, fix a center pivot, it is a huge thing in rural areas. I don’t 

know if any of you have any experience in that type of arena or 

if you have any observations. 

It may be a very short question because that is what I am interested in. 

We really need to have Perkins grants out in the rural areas. I 

know there is a push right now to make things more sophisticated, 

more academically respectable. 

But the reality of rural America is these things have got to get 

fixed, and if we do away with the Perkins grant or some of the 

things that are currently in it, we have got a problem. So if anybody has a comment, I would appreciate it. 

Dr. BARTON. I will take a shot at it. I think I was trying to place 

our institution in your district, and we have a basic philosophy that 

if there is a need in that community, we are going to find a way 

to meet that need, and that is exactly what we would do with what 

you have described here. You may have to go back to the manufacturer, or you may have to put something together that you could 

operate a training program, and it wouldn’t be that expensive. 

There are numerous ways to find a way to get those people into 

a training program, even if we have to carry it out to them, and 

32

we do a lot of that, carry it to them. They don’t have to come to 

the college. We will go to them, and we will find a way to identify 

exactly what they don’t know and do whatever it takes to get them 

to know what they are after so they can make their own repairs 

and save a lot of money there. So we do a lot of that, but we don’t 

do it on farming equipment. We do the same thing on a lot of other 

type of equipment. 

Dr. WONG. In California, specifically northern California, Sonoma 

County and Napa County, of course, are in competition to be the 

true purveyors of fine wine. However, the wine industry is also 

supplemented by the dairy industry, and there are strong ag mechanic programs. And many of our high schools contained in the ag 

mechanic programs are components and metal fabrication, welding 

mig, tig, as well as gas welding. There is machining components. 

We work very closely with the machinist union, sheet metal workers, and ironworkers in many of our schools to make sure that 

those types of skills are responsive to the needs of our particular 

region. So I want to assure you that that is a good use of Perkins 

funds that are responsive to regional labor demands. 

Dr. WHITE. I can only echo that we have agriculture mechanic 

programs as well as a number of ag ed programs at Great Oak, and 

again, we see it as our responsibility to the economic development 

of our communities, and if the community needs it, we are going 

to provide it both at the secondary level and also part-time adult 

ed programs as needed. 

Mr. OSBORNE. Thank you. 

I won’t belabor the point, but, Mr. Chairman, in areas like I represent, I think that the main fear right now is that somehow Perkins is going away, and if so, it will really impact our high schools, 

our community colleges, our vocational/technical schools. And so we 

will do whatever we can to preserve it. I am glad to hear that you 

have some interest also. Thank you. I yield back. 

Chairman CASTLE. Thank you, Mr. Osborne. 

Mrs. Davis is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I wanted to follow up on Ms. Woolsey’s question for a second, Ms. 

Zwickert. Do you have statistics of the number of young women 

who, in fact, are becoming excited, those who otherwise would not 

have been, by math and science, for example, and I guess what 

kind of an outcome would you feel is successful versus kind of lukewarm in terms of the program and how it is working? 

Ms. ZWICKERT. Yes. We do have data, and we collect that from 

the schools, and we use the Internet to maintain that data, and it 

is information that can be shared. I do not have it here today, but 

I can obviously get that to you. 

What we are actually doing is working with eight different 

schools around the country to increase female participation in the 

academy program, and we are measuring those statistics. 

Relative to outcomes, what we are trying to do is make young 

women aware of the various careers that are available. And we recently created a video called ‘‘I Am a Female Engineer.’’ and I have 

a daughter myself who is 15, and quite honestly she is not aware 

of what engineers do in an everyday job, and I think it is our goal 

and mission to make young women aware of what summer jobs are 

33

available. So the schools themselves are working collaboratively 

with the community colleges as well as industry to make these 

young women aware of the kind of positions that are available. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Thank you. And I know I have seen 

some of those in my home area of San Diego as well, and part of 

the question often is what are we seeing in terms of those individuals that are making choices other than what they had perhaps— 

Ms. ZWICKERT. I have a really wonderful success story to share 

with you. We have from Ohio, from Columbus High School. A 

young woman went through our academy program because she was 

invited by some of her peers to join the program, and she really 

had a propensity to succeed in IT. She graduated as a valedictorian 

from Briggs High School. She went on to Xavier University with a 

scholarship, and now she is studying business administration with 

a minor in computer science. And I have many other stories much 

like that to share. 

So it really goes back to the instructor as well to help motivate 

the young women to learn about careers in IT, and in many instances what we are trying to do is record the best practices and 

then share them with educational institutions throughout the country. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Thank you. I appreciate that. 

Ms. ZWICKERT. Sure. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. I think that earlier in the testimony, 

and I am sorry I wasn’t able to be here for that, you talked about 

remediation and the need to bring students, particularly in literacy 

and, I am assuming, in mathematics as well, up to a level so they 

can really take advantage of the programs that you have to offer. 

How are you working with the teachers and the overall programs 

in order to do that? Is there particular emphasis on students who 

you know are going to be taking some of the courses particularly 

and having some of the partnerships in the community that need 

those skills, they need the remediation? How are they getting it, 

and how are you isolating some of those issues? 

Dr. WONG. The county office of education in Sonoma County, we 

are promoting a concept called a graduate guarantee or a warranty. 

Every single student who goes through our high school system, if 

any employer feels that they need any kind of additional skills related to their high school coursework, we have a commitment to 

provide that free of charge. We will provide—we will buy books for 

them to go back through the adult school programs. We will actually bring training to the employer’s site. We are actually on the 

work sites of several of our large businesses in terms of those employees who have not yet completed their high school diploma. We 

are on those work sites for GED prep. We are on these work sites 

for English proficiency, and we are actually at one work site providing coursework necessary for citizenship completion. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. And what source of funding are you 

using for that? 

Dr. WONG. We are using funding that flows through the county 

office of education, which again serves as that umbrella for the 

1,000 independent school districts in California. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. And not necessarily Perkins money 

then for that? 

34

Dr. WONG. We want to maintain the integrity of the Perkins 

money in terms of making sure that it stays localized to the secondary school system. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Great. Thank you. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Thank you all for being here. 

I actually served on a school board in San Diego a number of 

years ago, and we struggled with this all the time, and there was 

a point at which—there were a number of, I guess I would call it, 

vocational programs that were phased out because students were 

not necessarily doing that well. And then they came back in a different form, and there are some, I think, wonderful model schools. 

But generally speaking, I still run into many, many students and 

faculty, parents who feel that we continue to put greater emphasis 

on students who are going to college, and I am sure that you have 

all addressed this issue. But is there anything as you work with 

this that you feel we are perhaps setting up some obstacles in the 

programs in order to be quite successful in getting out the message 

that not only are the programs there, the training is there for the 

instructors, the premium is there to support them as they move 

forward? Where are the real problems that you see and that we 

need to be very cognizant of, I guess, as we move forward with this 

reauthorization? 

Dr. BARTON. I think you are going to have to start and go back 

and take a serious look at the dropout rate in our public schools 

across the entire country. The number is going up, folks, not down, 

and we are dealing with that every day. And we are dealing with 

hundreds of them that drop out, but we are also dealing with hundreds of them that have high school diplomas in their hand, but 

they test out at around the eighth or ninth grade level, and yet 

they want to be a nurse or whatever they may want to be. We can’t 

put them in those programs unless we elevate that achievement 

level. 

And that is exactly what we are doing, and I think he gave you 

a very good answer there. And we do basically the same thing. We 

have a full-time person that does nothing but work with the leadership in the school district to try to pinpoint these people in advance. And you have touched on the edge of that, to try to find 

them out who they are, and help them, and get the word to them, 

and get them into our remediation system in our developmental 

studies. 

So it is a big problem, but it is not going away easily. It is a huge 

dropout problem, and on the other side of this these people cannot 

get decent jobs in industry. They just can’t do it. They have got to 

have the skills. The jobs are there, but the skills aren’t there, and 

you can’t give them the skills if they are not capable of going into 

those training programs and acquiring those skills. 

So it is a tough situation. We are doing all we can, I can tell you 

that. 

Dr. WONG. Mrs. Davis, in response to your question about teacher certification and teacher training, in the State of California, as 

you know, certification and training is the function of two major institutions, the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing 

and the local county office of education, that validate the credenVerDate 0ct 09 2002 12:20 Oct 18, 2004 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 H:\DOCS\93384 EDUWK PsN: NNIXON
35

tials of those teachers within their counties. So, for instance, San 

Diego County, Rudy Castruita, superintendent of the San Diego 

County Office of Education, he has a large team that does nothing 

but focus upon making sure adequate training is available. The beginning teacher program and support is there, and, of course, the 

county superintendents work very closely with the commission to 

make sure that we all have the strategies in place to ensure that 

highly qualified teachers are standing in front of all of our students. 

Dr. BARTON. Could I add one more thing? In order to solve the 

problem that you are talking about here, in the future you are 

going to have to go back into the universities, and you are going 

to have to put some kind of training into those administrators of 

the future; that they are going to have to deal with this problem 

and not let this happen to this country that they would go back 

and allow the philosophy to perpetuate itself that we want all these 

kids going into a major university when they don’t go to a major 

university. And I think that is where you are going to have to 

start, right where the origin is. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Thank you. 

Dr. White. 

Dr. WHITE. I just wanted to respond that we recognize that most 

parents want their children to go to college, but what we are trying 

to help parents understand is success comes in all different sizes. 

There is not one way to win; that success has many different forms. 

We all know college graduates who are unemployed or underemployed, and yet we want to make sure that our students are successful. So we work individually with each one, with their families, 

to determine what that looks like and then help them reach their 

goals. 

Ms. WALLS-CULOTTA. In addition to what Dr. White said, we also 

work very closely with the parents and the students from the time 

they enter. We do eighth grade visitations, and we talk then about 

your student is going to have options when he completes our 

schooling here. He will be able to go into a career or into the military or into college. It doesn’t mean that your child has to go on 

to a 4-year college to be successful. And we try to bring in a lot 

of guest speakers and take students out to workplaces to really see 

that you don’t always have to have that 4-year college. 

Mrs. DAVIS OF CALIFORNIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank 

you. 

Chairman CASTLE. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. We appreciate your 

questioning. 

Mr. DeMint is yielded to for his questioning. 

Mr. DEMINT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I would like to ask kind of a philosophical question that may be 

a little broader than just vocational/technical education, if you will 

allow me just a moment. And, Dr. Barton, I will focus on some of 

the things you said that I think one out of every four American students graduate high school is a statistic I have heard. And with all 

the talk back home, around the country, of the lack of jobs and jobs 

going overseas, it is always almost stunning to me as I tour manufacturing plants in South Carolina that almost inevitably they tell 

me their biggest challenge is finding skilled workers. 

36

I was in a Tyco plant in Greenwood, South Carolina, last week. 

They are adding 250 people in a community that has high unemployment. Their biggest problem was the lack of high school preparedness. Even a local teacher who was frustrated with public 

school came in and applied for a job and didn’t pass the basic skills 

test. 

There is some kind of disconnect, and the reason I am asking 

this question to this group is I know when you are involved with 

continuous quality improvement, you don’t look at the way things 

have always been done, but you try to discover successes around 

the edges. And where I think the successes are occurring have been 

in vocational/technical education not because it is vocational/technical, but it begins to teach academics in a context that has some 

relevant application to students, and suddenly those who never got 

academics before get it. 

And I see in the high school students—I don’t want to be critical 

of high schools or teachers because they are angels, they work 

harder than anybody I know, but there is something about the way 

we are teaching and I think there is something about what you are 

doing that we need to take back to the rest of our education system, because folks who graduate high school now, even those who 

succeed, have few marketable skills, and many of them have very 

little knowledge of what careers are out there. So they have no idea 

how to apply what they have been learning. 

And what we do here and what we do back in the education community is we have got K through 12, everybody is going to learn 

academics. We are going to pass on information, and those that 

don’t get it we will maybe send them to votech, or if they drop out, 

we will try to get them to come back later. And it seems to me that 

what we need to start thinking about is what a lot of you have already been doing in high school, and hopefully middle school, is to 

recognize that most students don’t learn academics well in the abstract, and that teaching academics in the context of careers and 

skills, not just votech, but banking and marketing and everything 

else, so that in middle school these kids start to see that this 

makes sense in their life, and they are not asking, why do I have 

to learn this, because they start to learn why they have to learn 

it while they are learning it. 

And I am just very discouraged about our education system and 

that we spend more on it than we do defense and we lose ground 

to industrial nations every year. And it seems to me as I see, Dr. 

Barton, what you have done with the charter high school, what we 

are hearing about today, that you can take kids who are not succeeding in the traditional academic environment and find out that 

they are very smart, and they may ultimately get a Ph.D., but we 

have to engage them some way, and I think the way we engage 

them is the way you are engaging them. 

My hope is—I know I am preaching more than I am asking 

here—if you have seen and you have discovered in your charter 

high school and these other applications that we can take students 

who we otherwise didn’t think were smart and discover that they 

really are if we begin to teach them in a way that has a context 

and relevance to their life. 

37

So, Tom, I know I am not leaving you much to say, but I would 

just like a philosophical answer related to all of education, not just 

a little part of it that we are talking about today. 

Dr. BARTON. I would say amen to everything you said. That certainly is appropriate. But I think we are doing a lot of what you 

said, as you know. Most of our programs have clinical training, 

hands-on learning, applied technology. All of those things we are 

involved with. I don’t think they have that opportunity. 

We do cross over, I will say this, with our school district and 

their career centers and so forth. We share labs with them, sophisticated labs, labs that are very expensive. We are doing some of 

that, and it is beginning to pay off, but it is slow. It is a slow process. We bus them to our campuses and put them in those labs, and 

we work with them to get the dual credits while they are simultaneously in high school, and that is called middle college, I believe, 

now is the new term for it, and that is an appropriate name, of 

course. 

We are doing some of that, but we are not doing enough of it, 

and Congressman DeMint is exactly right. It is a change—the 

change must take place down below the college level. It has got to. 

It has got to take place below there. And we are trying our best 

to help them get this done by supplying equipment for them, crossutilizing faculty, cross-utilizing libraries. Our charter school is a 

perfect example. They are involved not only with high-school-level 

training, but they are involved with collegiate-level training simultaneously here. So it is beginning to happen, but probably not fast 

enough— 

Mr. DEMINT. I saw a few smiles I liked over here. So just a couple of quick comments. I know I am about out of time, too. 

Ms. WALLS-CULOTTA. I didn’t realize how much disconnect there 

was between our academic and technical teachers until one of my 

math teachers and one of our automotive instructors were participating in a research project for the National Dissemination Centers, and they finally realized math is sterile, and because the 

automotive instructor was saying, I teach these same concepts, but 

these are the words I used. So the students are learning the concepts. They don’t realize they are learning it. So that is one of the 

reasons why we try to provide the staff development for our academic teachers to see what really is going on in those technical 

areas and see how they can make the connection, because the students then realize that an algebraic equation or Ohm’s law isn’t 

just something I have got to learn because it is math; if I don’t 

learn Ohm’s law, if I put a new speaker in my car, I am going to 

blow the alternator. So it is really practicality, and it gets the kids 

to realize, you know, I really do need to know this. 

Mr. DEMINT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman CASTLE. Thank you, Mr. DeMint. 

We have reached the time of the end of the hearing. I don’t know 

if any Member has a pressing question they didn’t get a chance to 

ask. If not, let me thank all of you very, very much. 

The process of all of this is we take all of your testimony as well 

as what you said today. Staff will review all this, peruse it, and ultimately it will lead to the preparation of legislation. So your contribution is very important to all of us, and your upbeat attitude 

38

about many of the things that are happening in education is appreciated as well. It is not always as upbeat as that. So we appreciate 

that. 

With that we stand adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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