# Date: April 28, 2015

**Case:** Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Commercial Warm Air

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING COMMERCIAL AC/FURNACE WORKING GROUP ASRAC COMMERCIAL PACKAGE AIR CONDITIONERS AND HEAT PUMPS AND COMMERCIAL WARM AIR

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585

9:03 a.m.

April 28, 2015Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## John Cymbalsky, DOE 4 

## Eileen Barkas Hoffman, Facilitator 5 

## Ted Bantle, Facilitator 6 

## Mary Anderson, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 7 

## James Battaglia, Navigant 8 

## Detlef Westphalen, Navigant 9 

## Andrew deLaski, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 10 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 11 

## Paul L. Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 12 

## Chandra Gollapudi, Emerson Climate Technologies, Inc. 13 

## Jill C. Hootman, Trane 14 

## John J. Hurst, Lennox International 15 

## Diane M. Jakobs, Rheem Manufacturing Company 16 

## Nicholas Misiak, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 17 

## Refrigeration Institute 18 

## Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 19 

## Refrigeration Institute 20 

## Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 21 

## Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy22 

## Efficient EconomyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 2 

## Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council 3 

## Robert J. Whitwell, United Technologies 4 

## Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National 5 

## Laboratory 6 

## Dave Winningham, Allied Air Enterprises 7 

## Katie Coughlin, LBNL 8 

## Greg Rosenquist, LBNL 9 

## Gary Fernstrom, CA IOU's 10 

## Travis F. Hardin, UL, LLC 11 

## Charlie McCrudden, ACCA 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## P R O C E E D I N G S 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this is John 3 

## Cymbalsky from DOE. Welcome everyone to the first 4 

## meeting of the CUACCWAF working group, so CUACCWAF 5 

## we'll call it. 6 

## So, this working group was chartered back 7 

## in March. We have a very aggressive schedule to 8 

## finish our work in mid-June. So, today we're going 9 

## to go over -- in the morning we're going to over -- 10 

## after introductions, we're going to go over some 11 

## process stuff. 12 

## I'm going to turn it over to our 13 

## facilitators, who are going to briefly introduce 14 

## themselves and what they do, and then we'll go around 15 

## the table for introductions. We have our ethics 16 

## representatives from General Counsel coming right at 17 

## 9:30, so we'll need to do that right away and then 18 

## we'll get into the content of the working group after 19 

## that. 20 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you. Hi, I'm 21 

## Eileen Barkas Hoffman, one of your facilitators. And 22 

## my colleague, Ted Bantle, will say a few words too,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## quickly, but we're from the Federal Mediation and 2 

## Conciliation Service, the independent federal agency 3 

## that does this, which is kind of fun. We get paid to 4 

## do this. And we also settle labor disputes if you're 5 

## a soccer or a baseball fan, thanks us or not, 6 

## whatever. But we basically deal with these kinds of 7 

## meetings and look forward to working with you on this 8 

## important rule. 9 

## Also, we had the experience of working 10 

## with John and Joe Hagerman for manufacturing housing 11 

## successfully resolved last year. So, we look forward 12 

## to it. 13 

## MR. BANTLE: Good morning everyone. As 14 

## Eileen said, my name is Ted Bantle. I'm a mediator 15 

## with FMCS as well. Happy to be here. As Eileen 16 

## mentioned, we did have some experience last year 17 

## during the manufactured housing rulemaking. So, 18 

## we're really here to lead the process. You are all 19 

## the process experts. We'll stay out of your way on 20 

## the details, but if you do have questions at any time 21 

## about the facilitation process, about our role, let 22 

## us know.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## And you probably will at some point see 2 

## one of our colleagues, Javier Ramirez here as well. 3 

## So, I'll kind of pseudo introduce him at the moment 4 

## as well. So, thank you. 5 

## MS. HOFFMAN: John, do you want to go 6 

## around the room now? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, we'll go 8 

## around the room. I'll start. So, I'm John 9 

## Cymbalsky. I'm the program manager for Appliance and 10 

## Equipment Standards at DOE, and you're all lucky to 11 

## have me as the federal representative of this. You 12 

## don't always have to be the smartest guy in the room 13 

## to get the job done, but in my mind, though, we're 14 

## going to stick with that. 15 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas with General 16 

## Counsel's Office. 17 

## MR. COCHRAN: Pete Cochran, also with DOE 18 

## General Counsel. 19 

## MR. GOLLAPUDI: I'm Chandra Gollapudi. 20 

## I'm with Emerson Climate Technologies and Air 21 

## Conditioning. I'm filling in for Sammy. He's in 22 

## Marketing. I'm in Marketing as well.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodwin 2 

## Manufacturing. 3 

## MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with Natural 4 

## Resources Defense Council. 5 

## MR. STARR: Louis Starr with Northwest 6 

## Energy Efficiency Alliance. 7 

## MR. SHOWS: Mike Shows with UL. 8 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American Council 9 

## for an Energy Efficient Economy. 10 

## MR. MILSLAK: Nick Milslak, Air 11 

## Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute. 12 

## MS. JAKOBS: Dianne Jakobs, Rheem 13 

## Manufacturing. I'm here for Karen Meyers. 14 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 15 

## Conditioning Contractors of America. 16 

## MR. HURST: John Hurst of Lennox. 17 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom 18 

## representing the California Investor Owned Utilities, 19 

## which are PG&E Southern California Edison, San Diego 20 

## Gas & Electric, and the Southern California Gas 21 

## Company. And I'm filling in today for Marshall Hunt, 22 

## who is having a wonderful time vacationing in Italy.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## And I'd like to introduce my co-worker, Mary 2 

## Anderson, who is in the audience representing PG&E. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 4 

## MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, United 5 

## Technologies, Carrier. 6 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi 7 

## Electric. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. 9 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Lawrence Berkeley 10 

## National Laboratory. 11 

## MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence 12 

## Berkeley National Laboratory. 13 

## MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant 14 

## Consulting. 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen, 16 

## Navigant Consulting. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: If you could all just 18 

## stand up in the back in the gallery and please state 19 

## your name and affiliation. 20 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham with 21 

## Allied Air. 22 

## MR. HARDIN: I'm Travis Hardin with UL.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. MONTELLO: I'm Pam Montello, and I'm 2 

## with the Office of Conflict Prevention and Resolution 3 

## with the Department of Energy. 4 

## MR. GORDON: Wade Gordon, DOE's Office of 5 

## Hearings and Appeals. 6 

## MR. FEIN: Steve Fein. I'm also with the 7 

## Office of Hearings and Appeals. 8 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 9 

## Electric Institute and member of ASRAC 90.1. 10 

## MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence 11 

## Berkeley National Lab. 12 

## MS. ANDERSON: Mary Anderson, PG&E. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Great. I know we 14 

## also have some people on the webinar. How many we 15 

## got today, Emily? 16 

## EMILY: We have 18. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I'm trying to get all 18 

## our members here. So, I know Andrew hasn't arrived 19 

## yet, Andrew deLaski. Is Mark Terzignini on the 20 

## webinar? 21 

## EMILY: No. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. All right. We haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## a few MIAs, but the show must go on. Okay. 2 

## I'm going to say a few words about the 3 

## introduction and what the role of the group is and a 4 

## few process issues. 5 

## So, most of you are familiar with the 6 

## building, but for those of you who are not, we're in 7 

## a big square right here in this building. At each 8 

## corner of the square, you'll find restrooms for your 9 

## convenience. In case there is an emergency, we're 10 

## going to go out the room, make a left, and then we're 11 

## going to go down the stairs and we're going to get 12 

## eight floors of exercise to evacuate. 13 

## Also, on the ground floor you probably 14 

## know there's a coffee shop and a Subway, and there's 15 

## also access to the DOE cafeteria when the time comes 16 

## for lunch. 17 

## And so, Andrew, if you want, just 18 

## introduce yourself for the record. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: Andrew DeLaski, Appliance 20 

## Standards Awareness Project. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. 22 

## Okay, so the purpose of today's meetingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## we're going to go over a brief overview of what ASRAC 2 

## is. We're going to do a brief discussion on the 3 

## background of the rule. Our mediators will give us 4 

## an overview of the negotiation process. We're going 5 

## to go through the ground rules and establish what the 6 

## ground rules are. 7 

## We're going to also go through and 8 

## schedule the rest of our meetings through June, and 9 

## at the same time we hope to identify what the key 10 

## issues are in the working group so that we can best 11 

## schedule these meetings because if we know there's 10 12 

## issues instead of 5 issues I think we're going to 13 

## have to be a little more diligent on our scheduling. 14 

## And then if time permits, and I hope it 15 

## does, you'll see some very detailed slides about our 16 

## analysis that was part of the NOPR. We understand 17 

## there's been some meetings amongst industry and the 18 

## environmental stakeholders on key issues that they 19 

## found in the NOPR. So, it is DOE's hope that a lot 20 

## of these may have been worked out a head of time so 21 

## that we can hit the ground running, so to speak, but 22 

## I know there's also a few members who weren't a partCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## of those negotiations. So, we'll have to discuss 2 

## those as we go through. 3 

## Okay, so as I said in my opening remarks, 4 

## this working group was chartered by ASRAC in March. 5 

## DOE formed the ASRAC back in 2012 to further improve 6 

## the process in establishing standards. We've been 7 

## pretty successful to date. We've had I think about 8 

## four or so rulemakings that have gone through the 9 

## process. All, in my opinion, have been very 10 

## successful. I think that you'll find, as we go 11 

## through this, that this process lends itself to more 12 

## real time back and forth between DOE and the 13 

## stakeholders, which is something people have 14 

## expressed to me that is very important to them. So, 15 

## I hope we do get that back and forth. We do get a 16 

## lot of data sharing from everyone in the room. It's 17 

## very important for the rulemaking. 18 

## Just to point out that ASRAC is solely 19 

## advisory in nature, so whatever this working group 20 

## decides will be floated up to ASRAC, the parent 21 

## committee. And Andrew deLaski is the ASRAC member on 22 

## this working group, so he'll be -- so, Andrew willCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## fill in the ASRAC Committee as we go through. 2 

## Typically, it's worked out that the 3 

## working group's recommendations have flowed through 4 

## all the way through ASRAC and to DOE in the form of a 5 

## Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. This one is a little 6 

## bit of an odd duck in my mind in that both of these 7 

## products already have proposals out on the street. 8 

## So, you all have the benefit or not the benefit of 9 

## knowing that DOE thinks about these products, but 10 

## notwithstanding that, we're here to negotiate just 11 

## like everybody else in the room. So, we have an open 12 

## mind going into these proceedings. 13 

## As we go through, we'll be doing -- and 14 

## this is more process stuff, but we'll be taking votes 15 

## on the key issues. Once we establish what quorum is 16 

## for the group and what consensus is for the group, 17 

## the voting then becomes very important on how we 18 

## resolve issues that are presented and that's where 19 

## the real negotiation will start to take place. 20 

## If things aren't going well, DOE can opt 21 

## to withdraw the task from the group and ASRAC can as 22 

## well. We hope that's not the case. We really doCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## want to see this through and get to a good point; 2 

## however, if we don't get to a point of a 3 

## recommendation to ASRAC, DOE will go forward with the 4 

## NOPRs that you've seen, then take them to final 5 

## rules. However, everything done here is in the 6 

## public record and in the administrative record for 7 

## these rulemakings and so, obviously, DOE will enter 8 

## anything here into the dockets and administrative 9 

## records for those rules. So, even if we don't get to 10 

## a yes, I still believe lots of good work will be done 11 

## inside this working group. 12 

## Okay, so at this point we have a bunch of 13 

## slides on the work that our facilitators do. So, I 14 

## don't know if you want to take this at the podium or 15 

## take it from there and I can flip the slides. 16 

## MS. HOFFMAN: We'll just do it quickly. 17 

## We did our infomercial before. We can flip to the 18 

## next one. It's just that we've done more than 50 of 19 

## these and we're kind of pleased that we were the very 20 

## first negotiated rulemaking in 1983, long time ago. 21 

## I just said that we've been doing this for quite a 22 

## while and have more than 50. Okay, we can keep going,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and I'd just mention that the last one was 2 

## manufacturing housing. 3 

## We're assuming all of you are familiar 4 

## with negotiated rulemaking, but if you're not it's 5 

## basically a process where the parties that are going 6 

## to be regulated by the rule get a chance to actually 7 

## say what they think and the agency that's involved in 8 

## making the rule can hopefully have a better rule 9 

## because it has all the information and all of the 10 

## insights before promulgating the rule. And we can go 11 

## to the next one. 12 

## (Slide.) 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And as you heard just a few 14 

## moments ago from John Cymbalsky, if it doesn't work 15 

## of course the agency can go ahead and promulgate the 16 

## rule as it wishes, but we've been pleased to see that 17 

## most of the time the rule that actually comes out in 18 

## the draft enriched by all of the input from the 19 

## committee. 20 

## (Slide.) 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: This just says why we're 22 

## doing it. Okay. And now I'm just going to turnCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## quickly to what's a facilitator. Have you all worked 2 

## with facilitators before? Okay, so we're kind of in 3 

## between. We don't want to strong arm you. We're not 4 

## totally laissez-fair because we really want you to 5 

## work toward a deadline to reach a resolution that 6 

## you're happy with. 7 

## (Slide.) 8 

## MS. HOFFMAN: This just gives us a 9 

## statutory in the Negotiated Rulemaking Act basically 10 

## says hopefully you're hire us. We're being hired by 11 

## the Department of Energy, but we do serve at your 12 

## pleasure. And we basically work with you, and one of 13 

## the things we're going to try to do today is define a 14 

## quorum, work on ground rules and define what 15 

## consensus is. 16 

## This looks a pretty well behaved group, 17 

## but the orderly kind of discussion. We've seen 18 

## passions that get involves, so if you want to speak 19 

## this is sometimes a good idea so we can make sure 20 

## everyone's heard. 21 

## (Slide.) 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And then this just says allCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the things we do. You'll let us know if we're doing 2 

## all of them, hopefully, well. We even talk to people 3 

## off side to see if there are some issues that need to 4 

## be addressed, but haven't been. We'll be putting 5 

## them in what's called "the parking lot," which means 6 

## we get to them, but maybe not if they're not part of 7 

## the agreed upon agenda. 8 

## (Slide.) 9 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And then you see the color 10 

## with body language like this (indicating). We watch 11 

## that's why we try to do this pairs. If somebody's 12 

## very negative, we try to find out why. It could be 13 

## something they eat you know downstairs here, but it 14 

## might be something that's more important, so we do 15 

## try to do that. And when the process breaks down, we 16 

## work on the substance. When the substance breaks 17 

## down, we work on the process. And when in doubt, we 18 

## take a break. 19 

## (Slide.) 20 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And then our obligation as 21 

## neutrals is by entering the process we're obligated 22 

## to provide a fair and impartial -- we have a concernCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and an interest in energy, but we have no stake in 2 

## this rule and we're here to help you make the best 3 

## one you can. 4 

## (Slide.) 5 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And then just some comments 6 

## for the participants. By entering the process, in a 7 

## sense, you're agreeing. And there was a whole 8 

## convening stage we weren't a part of that John and 9 

## his staff probably spoke to you about to be members 10 

## of this committee in good standing, both you and your 11 

## alternates, and so we'll be sort of harking back you 12 

## know why did you commit to all this time? Well, for 13 

## a good reason. Thank you. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And this just sort of shows, 16 

## in a sense, a pictorial of what we're doing, the 17 

## committee over here, the mediator. Technical 18 

## advisors we have some over here the DOE has worked 19 

## with. And the stakeholders who aren't present we're 20 

## very aware that you all have constituents. You're 21 

## representatives of groups behind you and we know that 22 

## in between the meetings you may be talking to themCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and getting some more guidance and advice, and the 2 

## stakeholders who are present, and our public as well. 3 

## (Slide.) 4 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And this just talks about 5 

## the first meeting. And the hope is that in this 6 

## meeting we're setting the stage. We're negotiating 7 

## the protocols, which are the ground rules. We're 8 

## talk about subsequent meetings and how we'll 9 

## communicate between meetings. And here it'll be a 10 

## very compressed schedule. And then if we need 11 

## smaller working groups, we'll develop those as well. 12 

## And then this is actually what you heard from John 13 

## already with his agenda. 14 

## (Slide.) 15 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And then just your 16 

## responsibility. We hope by -- you know, what is it, 17 

## 98 percent as being there? You're here already, so 18 

## you've, in a sense, said yes. But we hope that you 19 

## and your alternate will be fully briefed on what's 20 

## going on so that you can be a participatory member. 21 

## And then just decision-making and we'll get to that, 22 

## how we're going to make decisions here. I thinkCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that's it. 2 

## MR. BANTLE: Good morning everyone. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We're making record time, 4 

## so either nobody's had enough caffeine yet or I don't 5 

## know. Okay, so the negotiation process this is just 6 

## an overview of what we've all agreed to here. So, 7 

## you know, first of all, there is the DOE's need for 8 

## full compliance with the statutory mandate, so 9 

## everyone needs to keep that in mind as we go. 10 

## The key here is we're mandated to 11 

## establish minimum energy efficiency standards that 12 

## are technologically feasible and economically 13 

## justified. And we want everyone in the room to walk 14 

## into it with the idea that they support a consensus 15 

## rulemaking effort. If you don't, you know I ask you 16 

## to recuse yourself now. We don't want someone here 17 

## who doesn't have this goal in mind. It's not why 18 

## you're in the room. And if you're here for a 19 

## different reason, the door's over there. Honestly, 20 

## we really want this to work. 21 

## DOE will consider the consensus of the 22 

## working group moving forward, as I mentioned before.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Whatever comes out of this group goes to ASRAC for 2 

## vote and then gets passed to DOE. We have a 100 3 

## percent acceptance rate thus far and there's no 4 

## reason to believe that this one's any different. 5 

## Again, good faith negotiations, so if 6 

## you're not here in good faith, again, you know we've 7 

## had other negotiating committees where I'm not sure 8 

## everyone was there in good faith. And when that was 9 

## experienced, it wasn't pleasant for anybody in the 10 

## room and things just don't go well at point. 11 

## We ask everyone that's here to make a good 12 

## faith effort to provide whatever data they can. We 13 

## understand that some data is business sensitive and 14 

## companies won't want to provide that, but to the 15 

## extent you can under NDAs or other means we think the 16 

## data that exists or could exist will go a long way to 17 

## getting us to a good point and a good place for 18 

## consensus for the working group. 19 

## And from DOE's point of view, you could 20 

## see our technical experts are here. We, in good 21 

## faith, will provide every means necessary to do any 22 

## analysis that makes sense for this working group toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## move it forward. So, DOE has provided that technical 2 

## expertise and we will, as we go through this, do our 3 

## best to do the analyses that is asked for by the 4 

## working group. 5 

## And I guess the white elephant in the room 6 

## is the June 15 date, right? So, we know we don't 7 

## have a lot of time here and it is two products and 8 

## one negotiating committee, so it's daunting but I 9 

## don't think it's something we can't achieve as a 10 

## group. I think, again, the meetings that have been 11 

## held previously have probably gotten us a lot of the 12 

## way where we need to get. 13 

## And I'll pause. I see a question. 14 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's Steve Rosenstock, 15 

## Edison Electric Institute. 16 

## In the publication and federal notice 17 

## there was the information about the June 15 deadline. 18 

## Just as an observer, I was wondering with other 19 

## negotiated rulemakings they were allowed to go over 20 

## several months and this one you're only allowing six 21 

## weeks. Could you describe why there's such a quick 22 

## deadline for this negotiation?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. ASRAC required it, 2 

## simple answer, at the charter meeting. 3 4 

## MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Okay, so we've kind 6 

## of covered these already, but the key issues for this 7 

## working group, again, data, data, data. I won't say 8 

## it enough. Any and all data that could possibly help 9 

## inform the rulemaking we definitely are accepting of 10 

## that and will do whatever extra analysis we need to 11 

## to work this data into it. 12 

## We think there are some synergies out 13 

## there that can be gained by combining these two 14 

## products into one rule. Compliance dates, obviously, 15 

## if a manufacturer is making a rooftop unit that has a 16 

## furnace and air conditioners obviously it makes sense 17 

## to line those two up. So, DOE agrees with that. I 18 

## think ASRAC was very clear about that being a viable 19 

## option. 20 

## Then, of course, the standards are a key 21 

## part of this. I should say what's not on the table 22 

## here is the test methods, and I think that was veryCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## clear in the charter to this group. So, please try 2 

## as best you can not to drag that into this. Any 3 

## updates to the test method will be down the road, but 4 

## they won't be part of this proceeding because we'll 5 

## never finish by June 15. I think we could all agree 6 

## to that. 7 

## These are the EPCA Factor. So, I 8 

## mentioned the statutory requirements. I'm not going 9 

## to go through this. This is old hat for most of us, 10 

## but we still need to do this. Even though this is a 11 

## negotiation, this stuff doesn't just go away. We 12 

## will be going through all this analysis based on the 13 

## input and the data we get from this group. 14 

## Okay, so we are making really good time. 15 

## We really are way ahead of schedule, which is good. 16 

## I expect the Ethics briefing in about three or five 17 

## minutes, but we might as well go through the first 18 

## slide. 19 

## (Slide.) 20 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. As John and Eileen 21 

## have referenced a couple of times -- and again, I'm 22 

## Ted Bantle. One of the major things we have to doCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## today is establish some ground rules for this working 2 

## group. 3 

## Just a few considerations, first of all, 4 

## what's the role of alternates going to be. We have a 5 

## few alternates there today. Will alternates be 6 

## voting members? Will they not be voting members? 7 

## How will they be address you know during the meeting? 8 

## Second, participating, what is the role, 9 

## not only of the alternates, but of the public? Can a 10 

## member of the working group bring in individuals from 11 

## the public to speak? You know can we hand the floor 12 

## to them? One of the big questions, quorum and 13 

## consensus, what are we defining consensus as? As you 14 

## see on the slide, if the group does not define 15 

## consensus, the default is unanimous. So, that's 16 

## something we'll come back to. 17 

## All right, let's go a little bit through 18 

## consensus and then we can come back, probably after 19 

## the Ethics presentation, and actually outline some 20 

## ground rules. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: He's here now. 22 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, then this is a perfectCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## time before we go into consensus. So, we'll 2 

## transition over to Ethics. 3 

## MR. GORDON: Good morning. My name is 4 

## Wayne Gordon. I work for the designated agency 5 

## Ethics official for the Department. Her name is 6 

## Susan Beard. One of the things that our office does 7 

## is provide advice to designated federal officers 8 

## regarding their responsibilities in running FACA 9 

## committees. And today I'm just going to briefly go 10 

## through what the process is for FACA and how FACA 11 

## works, and in particular, talk about your roles and 12 

## responsibilities. 13 

## And briefly, FACA is a set of rules and 14 

## laws that came into affect in the mid to late 15 

## seventies to address concerns about people having 16 

## unauthorized access to government officials and 17 

## having undue influence on the process of developing 18 

## policies, regulations, and rules. 19 

## The FACA rules are really sunshine rules. 20 

## They're basically notice giving people the 21 

## opportunity to be heard and they're oriented towards 22 

## trying to ensure that fair viewpoints are beingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## brought to the government and that those viewpoints 2 

## are being represented in the rules and laws that are 3 

## made up through the federal agencies. 4 

## In this case, you are all part of a 5 

## working group for a parent committee, which is called 6 

## the Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory 7 

## Committee. That parent committee has both special 8 

## government employees who are actual federal employees 9 

## and it has representatives on it as well. 10 

## Now, in your role as a working group 11 

## member, you're on a working group which is considered 12 

## a subcommittee to the parent committee. So, all of 13 

## your recommendations and what you come through with 14 

## your working group activities today at some point in 15 

## the future that will come before the full committee 16 

## for a vote. And at that point if your 17 

## recommendations are acted on and voted in, then those 18 

## will be passed back to the Department and those will 19 

## be part of the Department's process of implementing 20 

## potential rules. 21 

## As representatives, unlike special 22 

## government employees, you're not subject to anyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## federal conflict of interest rules. And in fact, the 2 

## way that the working groups are supposed to act is 3 

## that you are supposed to be representing the 4 

## viewpoints of the organizations that you've been 5 

## appointed from. So, from that perspective, our 6 

## office when we're advising John on how to deal with 7 

## potential conflicts, unless there's a serious issue 8 

## where somebody is specifically oriented and basically 9 

## espousing the viewpoint of a particular one institute 10 

## instead of a group or representative manner, unless 11 

## that's occurring in the working groups our office is 12 

## not concerned about the conflict of interest issues 13 

## because you're presentation and what you'll come up 14 

## with as a product today will be voted on by that 15 

## parent committee and they'll have the opportunity to 16 

## either agree with or discount whatever opinions come 17 

## out of this working group. 18 

## So, from the conflict of interest 19 

## prospective, we're not worried about it, but we did 20 

## want to make sure that you're aware that there is a 21 

## conflict of interest rules out there. And the 22 

## conflict of interest rules for the special governmentCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## employees who are federal employees are that they're 2 

## not supposed to act on matters in an official 3 

## capacity that could affect their personal financial 4 

## interest. 5 

## And as representatives, we're not worried 6 

## about that. We bring you in here to represent those 7 

## viewpoints that are important in the rulemaking 8 

## process. This kind of FACA committee has only been 9 

## in existence for about two years now, so we are still 10 

## at the initial stages of trying to make sure that the 11 

## process is working out correctly. 12 

## I don't know. Is this the fifth or sixth 13 

## meeting? 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's the fifth 15 

## working group. 16 

## MR. GORDON: Yes, fifth working group. 17 

## And we've got a couple more coming up over the next 18 

## couple of weeks, and I do the same kind of briefing 19 

## for them. 20 

## If there are particular conflict of 21 

## interest issues that you're concerned about, you 22 

## should address those with John. And John will callCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## me and he'll say, Wayne, here's something one of the 2 

## working group members brought to my attention. Is it 3 

## something we have to be concerned about? And I will 4 

## do any research that's necessary and give advice 5 

## according, but if you think there's something going 6 

## on that is corrupting the process in any way, bring 7 

## that to John's attention and he'll be consulting with 8 

## me about it. 9 

## Are there any questions about conflict of 10 

## interest rules or how the FACA process works here? 11 

## Okay. Thanks very much. 12 

## MR. BANTLE: So, back to consensus. So, 13 

## first of all, what is consensus? There are a number 14 

## of definitions. The one we like to use at FMCS kind 15 

## of has three parts. First, it's a group 16 

## decision-making process. We'd like to see that 17 

## everyone's heard, that there has been discussion, 18 

## that everyone's concerns are raised, and the decision 19 

## might not be everyone's first choice, but it's one 20 

## that everyone can live with. 21 

## So, we're trying to get a solution that 22 

## may not be everyone's first choice, but it'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## something that everyone can live with and it meets 2 

## the interests of all parties. And interests are 3 

## really your needs, concerns really in the background, 4 

## whereas a position is simply a proposed solution to a 5 

## problem. 6 

## So, how are we going to reach consensus? 7 

## First, we're going to ask questions. You're going to 8 

## raise doubts. You're going to raise your concerns 9 

## and you're going to offer alternatives. And offering 10 

## alternatives is probably one of the best ways to work 11 

## towards consensus. We have a term we often use, and 12 

## Eileen and I might throw it out at some point during 13 

## this facilitation, which is that of a blocker. It's 14 

## the individual who's saying no. 15 

## So, first of all, you have to explain why 16 

## you're saying no, and you have to offer an 17 

## alternative solution. So, those are the kinds of 18 

## rules and responsibilities of the blocker. The 19 

## blocker is a strong person to have to help us reach 20 

## better consensus, but you can't simply say no. You 21 

## have to provide a reason and an alternative. 22 

## So, how do we like to test consensus?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## First of all, you can kind of break it down into five 2 

## stages, but it's a lot easier to think about it in 3 

## three: thumbs up, I'm okay with this; thumbs 4 

## sideways, I'm not quite sure. Maybe I have a 5 

## question? Maybe there's a clarification. Maybe I 6 

## just spaced out for a second and need to have the 7 

## consensus check again; thumbs down, you're a blocker. 8 

## Remember explain why your thumb's down. Maybe it's a 9 

## question. Maybe it's a clarification. Or if it's 10 

## really a strong concern, propose an alternative. 11 

## So, throughout this process, we may do two 12 

## different types of consensus checks. First one might 13 

## be a temperature check. We haven't reach -- you know 14 

## we're just in the midst of discussion. This might be 15 

## a check for understanding. Is everyone on the same 16 

## page here? Does everyone understand the basic 17 

## concept we're talking about? And then we will have 18 

## final consensus checks, which will be a bit more of a 19 

## formal process. We will record the results of those 20 

## consensus checks. 21 

## So again, responsibilities of the blocker, 22 

## consensus -- we can skip through the statutory roleCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## of consensus, but in this rulemaking process we are 2 

## urged to use this consensus process and define what 3 

## we see as a working group consensus to be. And I do 4 

## say "we." Eileen and I are just here as 5 

## facilitators, as she mentioned. You know we're not 6 

## part of the working group itself. And if consensus 7 

## is not reached, as John said, you know the Department 8 

## is willing to go forward with their Notice of 9 

## Proposed Rule. 10 

## So, we can go back to the ground rules in 11 

## the beginning. And Eileen if you could help me out, 12 

## I see we do have a flip chart, although we don't have 13 

## any markers it appears. So, thinking about ground 14 

## rules, I guess the first question if we're going just 15 

## down the list here is the role of alternates. Any 16 

## thoughts from the group on the role of alternates -- 17 

## and John, feel free to speak up. I know you have 18 

## experience with other DOE groups. That might be a 19 

## good place to start as a baseline. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this is John from DOE. 21 

## In the past, we allowed alternates on the 22 

## working group. We understand that folks can't alwaysCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## make every meeting, but from my point of view if 2 

## someone's going to be an alternate it's fine. We 3 

## don't want the alternate to just become the member. 4 

## I know that's happened in the past as well, so we 5 

## want the primary person to make every attempt. So, 6 

## we don't want the majority of meetings attended by 7 

## the alternate, but personally, I don't personally 8 

## have an issue with having alternates. I don't know 9 

## if anyone else feels differently. 10 

## MR. HURST: I agree, John. I think when 11 

## we get to the scheduling portion, based on the 12 

## compressed timeframe that we have it may be a good 13 

## idea to have alternates, but I agree that the primary 14 

## should make every effort to be here. 15 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Just a note, because this is 16 

## being recorded -- 17 

## MR. HURST: John Hurst from Lennox. 18 

## MS. HOFFMAN: -- just let everybody know. 19 

## Thank you. 20 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. I'm 21 

## representing the California IOUs. As an alternate, 22 

## and having participated in previous working groups, ICommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## recommend we accept alternates. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew DeLaski. It 3 

## seems to me that -- I agree with the notion of having 4 

## alternates, but it seems to me that people should 5 

## designate their alternates. So, there should be 6 

## designated alternates. It shouldn't be whoever I 7 

## sent this time around. And every organization group 8 

## who wants to have an alternate should say who that is 9 

## I would say at this meeting or soon after this 10 

## meeting so that we don't have someone showing up at 11 

## the third meeting who missed the first two and they 12 

## weren't briefed, right, so that could be completely 13 

## disruptive if we have someone parachute in who wasn't 14 

## fully briefed. 15 

## And I think by having a designated 16 

## alternate that would incent organizations to keep 17 

## their alternate fully briefed and in the loop. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree -- this is John 19 

## from DOE. And I think the way it worked in at least 20 

## one of the groups the alternates and the main member 21 

## often came together to meetings, or they were on the 22 

## webinar. So yes, I fully expect that the designatedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## alternate be fully plugged in to the process as we 2 

## move through. 3 

## I don't think we need to carry this out 4 

## too long, unless anyone has a concern with that I'm 5 

## getting the feeling from the group that we should 6 

## allow alternates as long as they're designated ahead 7 

## of time. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: I'd just ask the question 9 

## then just from a process point of view do you want to 10 

## ask the people to give their alternate by a certain 11 

## date or today. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: I also would ask the 14 

## question of -- so then the presumption then is 15 

## alternates can vote? Is that what we're saying? 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's right. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Whoever wants to designate 19 

## an alternate why don't we all strive for submitting 20 

## them by the end of the week to me and the ASRAC 21 

## mailbox? 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want to make aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## resolution? 2 3 

## MR. BANTLE: Should we go through because 4 

## we haven't defined consensus yet. We'll go through 5 

## to the end and then we can do a list -- go over the 6 

## whole list. 7 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. But to summarize, it 8 

## sounds like, and we'll go back. And I'm getting a 9 

## general sense of, yes, alternates by a certain date, 10 

## by the end of this week. They can vote. They should 11 

## be designated and fully briefed. Does that capture? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 13 

## MS. SHOWS: This is Mike Shows with UL. I 14 

## agree with what everybody said. I think that beyond 15 

## that the alternate should make every attempt to 16 

## attend at least via webinar so that they are fully -- 17 

## as you said, fully briefed there, but I think that 18 

## that attendance portion is important. 19 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. There 20 

## is one remaining ambiguity. The alternate may vote 21 

## in the absence of the committee working group member, 22 

## not in addition to.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOFFMAN: Right, vote only once. 2 

## Right. 3 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for the 4 

## California IOUs again. At least in our case, we work 5 

## closely enough together that I don't think it's 6 

## necessary the alternate be on the webinar every time 7 

## the appointed member is actually in Washington. 8 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I'm sorry. Who is 9 

## it, Gary? 10 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 11 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Your comment was that? 12 

## MR. FERNSTROM: My comment was I don't 13 

## think it's necessary the alternate be on the webinar 14 

## every time the appointed member is at the meeting in 15 

## Washington. We coordinate closely enough together 16 

## that we know what's going on. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, this is John 18 

## from DOE. 19 

## We're all acting in good faith here, 20 

## right? So, the good faith here is that if, in fact, 21 

## you meet after the meeting and you're fully briefed 22 

## you know that to me serves as a proxy for that. It'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## not a requirement. All we're saying is make your 2 

## best effort to be plugged into the proceedings. 3 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 4 

## And kind of following in Harvey's thought, 5 

## which is a dangerous place to go, but wanted to make 6 

## sure that we understand present to vote and no 7 

## over-the-phone votes. We haven't defined that, so 8 

## that might be a -- 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. You'd need to be 10 

## in the room or -- I think on the webinar is fine by 11 

## me as a vote. 12 

## MR. BANTLE: Thoughts from the group on 13 

## being able to vote from the webinar. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: To me, the webinar is the 15 

## meeting. You know I don't see that different. If 16 

## you're like in a foreign country and you're not 17 

## actually on the webinar and you're just emailing me, 18 

## I don't think that counts. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Again, this is Gary. I 20 

## guess I should be careful speaking because I'm an 21 

## alternate and not yet officially authorized to work 22 

## with the group I guess, but on account of weather andCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## other travel-related constraints sometimes the 2 

## primary member is not going to be able to make it. 3 

## MR. BANTLE: So, the general idea that to 4 

## vote you have to be in the room or in the webinar. 5 

## Okay, moving on, participation -- this is 6 

## a quick one -- of nonworking group members how to 7 

## bring them in. Do we have a process? Can any 8 

## working group member you know pass the mike or give 9 

## the floor to a member of the public, thoughts on that 10 

## from the working group? Do we want to set a time 11 

## limit on that discussion or a process for bringing in 12 

## outside individuals? 13 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the California 14 

## IOUs. 15 

## I've found in working in these groups that 16 

## frequently comments and thoughts from the audience 17 

## are very valuable to the process, so we should allow 18 

## that. 19 

## MS. WALTNER: I was just nodding in 20 

## agreement with Gary. 21 

## MR. BANTLE: Not a problem. And do we 22 

## want to set out any structure for that process, aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## time limit, a process for nominating individuals, or 2 

## just see how it goes? 3 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 4 

## I think a number of us have been in 5 

## multiples of these things and have found that the 6 

## commitment to courtesy is meant that this was an easy 7 

## flow of useful and interspersed comments from 8 

## outsiders, from non-working group members as they 9 

## came up and everybody was well behaved about it, so 10 

## I'm not sure we need any rules. 11 

## MR. BANTLE: That works? 12 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew DeLaski. 13 

## I guess I just would also say that I'm 14 

## counting on -- that I think we're counting on you, as 15 

## the facilitator, to ensure that no one monopolizes 16 

## too much time, right? You know I think we have 17 

## facilitators here, in part, to manage that process so 18 

## that we don't get someone who's standing up 15 times 19 

## to read the phone book or something. 20 

## MR. BANTLE: And we will do that. We'll 21 

## make sure to do that. 22 

## Okay, moving on, quorum. I believe theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## working group is 15 members. In the past, our past 2 

## experience we set a quorum at 12, 75/80 percent. 3 

## Suggestions from the group? 4 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with 5 

## ACEEE. 6 

## And I want to go back to the alternate 7 

## before we get going too far. 8 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 9 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Is there a difference then 10 

## between an alternate who may vote for you and a proxy 11 

## vote that you may hand over for a specific meeting or 12 

## a specific time period to another voting member? 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, that is very 14 

## different. Yes. So, we're not going to allow proxy 15 

## votes. Normally, we don't allow that. 16 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Have you ever allowed 17 

## proxy votes at least? 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, we have not. 19 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 20 

## You're defining proxy different than just 21 

## an alternate that is there engaged in the meeting. 22 

## Okay.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. A proxy vote, in 2 

## my mind, the way Charlie described it was I got to go 3 

## to the bathroom. Bob, when they vote, vote yes for 4 

## me. 5 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 7 

## MS. WALTNER: In the pumps negotiation, 8 

## there was one time when there was massive flight 9 

## delays, I believe, and people were calling in -- 10 

## members were calling in on their way and I think we 11 

## ended up doing some proxy votes during that time for 12 

## members that had been on the phone and then emailed 13 

## their votes into us. So, there was one time when we 14 

## did it briefly. I don't know if you want to allow 15 

## that here or wait until -- hopefully, there won't be 16 

## massive flight delays. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You know from my point of 18 

## view ^^^^ this is John again from DOE. 19 

## So, I know the parent ASRAC committee when 20 

## we had a couple members who couldn't make it they had 21 

## sent me an email of their vote and I read the email 22 

## on the record for the record. You know if we getCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## into that situation to me that's different than me 2 

## just telling Bob to vote yes because I don't -- you 3 

## know not that I don't trust Bob. I do. But you know 4 

## I think it's a little different, in my opinion, but 5 

## you know I don't have a strong opinion. I think 6 

## everyone here is on the up and up for getting this 7 

## done, so you know. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: Andrew DeLaski. 9 

## My preference would be to not officially 10 

## sanction proxy votes. I think that in the event that 11 

## something like this happens then you manage it in 12 

## that moment. You know if it's a close -- I suspect 13 

## it wasn't a close issue, right? If it was a close 14 

## issue, I wouldn't want to be handling a close issue 15 

## with people emailing things in from the airport. And 16 

## I told Bob yes, but he said no by mistake. You know 17 

## that's what you don't want to have happening and I 18 

## think that's the risk you take if you sanction it. I 19 

## would say better not to sanction it. If we run into 20 

## a situation where people are stuck in an elevator or 21 

## whatever then you work it out. 22 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I raised it because I think that's with 2 

## the compressed time schedule that we have -- and I 3 

## have a sense that when we come to the calendar we're 4 

## going to find that -- you know like I know 5 

## specifically one week in May when I can't be here and 6 

## I have no alternative option because my alternatives 7 

## won't be here either because we're all somewhere 8 

## else. And I recognize that this situation -- the 9 

## elevator situation too is -- so you're saying that 10 

## you would not exclude the potential for a situation 11 

## where we could -- 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Let us know where you're at, 13 

## Charlie. You know that Charlie's got big concerns 14 

## about this, communicate that to the group, but you're 15 

## not going to get to vote I guess is the thing, but 16 

## the group would be doing it with knowledge that you 17 

## had an issue, right? 18 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Sure. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: And that would be -- 20 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, you're reserving that 21 

## possibly that this could occur. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Right. Yes, you wouldCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## communicate with us. 2 

## MR. BANTLE: Eileen, did you capture that 3 

## discussion? 4 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. I just want to make 5 

## sure. 6 

## MR. BANTLE: And you might want to come 7 

## back to it. 8 

## MS. HOFFMAN: A proxy vote not allowed, 9 

## but that may be too definitive here, but it sounded 10 

## like that was what I was hearing; but that doesn't 11 

## preclude communication, concern and other things. 12 

## Was that what I heard? 13 

## MR. BANTLE: Charlie, I think you're 14 

## coming from a different point there. 15 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. 16 

## I guess the sense I got was that we're not 17 

## going to official allow proxies, but that if 18 

## circumstances arose and if it was communicated in a 19 

## way it would be allowed. So, we're not actually 20 

## saying on proxies. We're saying we don't essentially 21 

## have a proxy policy or maybe we're saying we have a 22 

## proxy policy, but that it could have certainCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## exceptions. 2 

## MR. BANTLE: And Andrew is what you were 3 

## saying that the concerns of the individual who wasn't 4 

## present would be addressed, but the individual still 5 

## would not have a vote? 6 

## MR. DELASKI: Right. That's what I was 7 

## suggesting. 8 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: You know I think that it 10 

## gets to -- we're going to get the consensus here in a 11 

## few minutes, right, but if we're going to get to a 12 

## rule proposal that's going to -- I mean our consensus 13 

## definition and we know Charlie's got big issues, then 14 

## it would've been good as a vote, even though 15 

## officially we're not letting you vote, right, since 16 

## you don't -- slippery slope of proxies. 17 

## MR. BANTLE: Any other comments from the 18 

## group? 19 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 20 

## So, I think what everyone is saying is 21 

## that it's not really proxy voting that we're talking 22 

## about, but special voting during extenuatingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## circumstances is more what we're going to -- 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, I'm hearing 3 

## two different scenarios, the one is you know the 4 

## weather turned bad and everyone was at the airport 5 

## and they're communicating via email their vote. To 6 

## me that's not a proxy. I'm reading their votes, 7 

## right, and they're entered into the record versus you 8 

## know Charlie's disappears to Hawaii in May and before 9 

## he left he told Bob to vote no on everything. You 10 

## know, to me, that's the proxy that we're trying to 11 

## avoid. 12 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. 13 

## And for the record, it is Asheville, North 14 

## Carolina. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, that's a nice place. 16 

## I want to go there. 17 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Well, let me just summarize. 18 

## Special voting during an extenuating circumstances 19 

## will be decided on a case-by-case basis or just -- I 20 

## don't know. I'm just trying to figure out how to 21 

## capture what's been said. Proxy voting will not be 22 

## allowed, but special voting during extenuatingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## circumstances; is that what I'm hearing? 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 3 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 4 

## MR. BANTLE: Thank you, Eileen, for 5 

## capturing that. 6 

## Okay, moving back to quorum, I had thrown 7 

## out the suggestion, based on our previous working 8 

## group, of a quorum was 12 out 15. Paul informed me 9 

## that I was incorrect. We have 17. So, just kind of 10 

## working with that, any suggestions from the group on 11 

## defining quorum? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 13 

## So, quorum is just the number of people we 14 

## need to have a meeting so it's an official meeting. 15 

## And so we want to be careful here with what we 16 

## decide, but generally, 75 to 80 percent for the full 17 

## ASRAC. 18 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 19 

## Members on the webinar are considered to 20 

## be present? 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 22 

## MR. HURST: This is John Hurst withCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Lennox. 2 

## I don't see any reason to deviate from 3 

## what's been successful in the past, so if that's the 4 

## guideline I think that's what my opening position 5 

## would be. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean I would just throw 7 

## out 75 percent or more. I know we don't have a 8 

## number of people that'll equal 75 percent. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: So, let's do the math so we 10 

## know what we need, right? So, 75 percent -- where's 11 

## an engineer? 12 

## (Laughter.) 13 

## MR. BANTLE: So, that would 13, including 14 

## members that are on the webinar. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, not less than 13? 16 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think we should probably 18 

## just go with 12 just because it's actually some 19 

## fraction of it, but it could be a problem getting 12 20 

## people -- well, maybe not with the number of 21 

## meetings, but if it goes on longer that would be a 22 

## problem.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: But the concern I would have 2 

## is you know if we have a participant or two who 3 

## decides you know this actually wasn't really worth my 4 

## time after all and they just start not showing up, 5 

## then we have a quorum problem. So, that's the one I 6 

## think that concerns me is if we've got 17 you know if 7 

## there's the potential that someone just drops out and 8 

## doesn't actually resign, then we could deal with it 9 

## then. 10 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Then do you want to go with 11 

## 12 rather than 13? 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Seventy and a half percent. 13 

## I'm fine with 12. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Fine. 15 

## MS. BANTLE: Twelve, including webinar 16 

## members. 17 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 18 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, next thing on the list 19 

## is consensus, thoughts on consensus. Previously, 20 

## again, going with what we've worked with in the past, 21 

## we had no more than three no votes on a vote, and 22 

## that's out of the quorum the amount of people thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## can vote on that day, not out of the total group, 2 

## thoughts on that? So, a fourth no vote would be no 3 

## consensus. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this is John from DOE. 5 

## So, the way we've done it in the past with 6 

## voting, so we just looked for "no's." We didn't 7 

## actually have to vote yes. So, this is a very 8 

## important distinction. You know to get that four 9 

## people they would absolutely have to say no. An 10 

## abstention in this case does not count towards that 11 

## number. So, to me, that's important. And remember 12 

## the rules. If you vote no, you have to say why and 13 

## you have to offer what your solution path to a yes 14 

## is. 15 

## So, from my point of view, you know I 16 

## think this is a good going in position, but you know, 17 

## obviously, this is very important, the most important 18 

## vote you'll have today maybe. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 20 

## Just an observation, looking around the 21 

## room it looks to me like we've got individuals that 22 

## are environmental advocates here, if you include theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## California Utilities in that, and it would take 2 

## unanimity among the advocates to block in order to 3 

## get four votes. I forgot Harvey. I'm sorry. That 4 

## changes my comment and the perspective. Thank you. 5 

## MR. BANTLE: Any other comments from the 6 

## working group on consensus? 7 

## MR. STARR: I was going to say I think the 8 

## same kind of rules, at least for pumps in commercial 9 

## refrigeration, which was three, but I don't know. I 10 

## guess the math I guess the four could work. 11 

## MR. BANTLE: Say it again, Louis. 12 

## MR. STARR: It was three, I believe, was 13 

## the magic number. 14 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary again. 15 

## Not yet able to vote, but being able to 16 

## comment, I favor four. 17 

## MR. BANTLE: And just a clarification, in 18 

## pumps three no votes was still consensus or two was 19 

## still consensus, three was no consensus, so just one 20 

## less. Okay. Thoughts from the group? Paul. 21 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi 22 

## Electric.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, the last group I was on there was a 2 

## differentiation made by DOE between everyone agreeing 3 

## and consensus as to what was implied by DOE's action 4 

## because if it was everyone agreed, then DOE would 5 

## comply with what was said. If it was consensus -- 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, no, no. 7 

## MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this is what we're 9 

## defining here. So, the going in position in the FACA 10 

## kind of rules is unanimous, right, but the group can 11 

## change that definition. That's what we're doing 12 

## here. So, once we change that definition that's what 13 

## DOE abides by. 14 

## MR. DOPPEL: Okay. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean from DOE's 16 

## perspective if it's four or three -- I mean I don't 17 

## think I personally have a difference with those two, 18 

## but happy to go either way. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 20 

## Four going once, going twice. 21 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: I'll say yes. This is 22 

## Charlie McCrudden. I don't know. It's not auctionCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## here. 2 

## (Laughter.) 3 

## MR. MCRUDDEN: I mean, Gary, you looked 4 

## around and you sort of looked at your compatriots. I 5 

## look at my compatriots. I've got myself and SMAKDA 6 

## number two as the contractor side of things. Now, we 7 

## probably play a smaller role than the other voting 8 

## blocks. I'd put in air quotes. But I think that -- 9 

## you know I don't think I could actually argue 10 

## successfully that we should go down to two, but I 11 

## would say I think going to three would be supportive. 12 

## I can support three. Four I feel like perhaps that 13 

## there's an issue that comes up and I can't be 14 

## persuasive and I'm just sort of -- I'm just sort of a 15 

## ghost here. So, I would support three. I think may 16 

## be a better -- I think probably the smaller number is 17 

## -- I still think that would be preferable for us. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 19 

## I think Charlie's proposal is a good one. 20 

## I also would think that when we report the vote, any 21 

## vote back to the parent committee that if the report, 22 

## the actual votes shows this is consensus, but thereCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## were 15 yes and 2 no's. Two no's, right, so the 2 

## parent committee is -- that actually creates a little 3 

## more pressure to try to get 100 percent if you can. 4 

## I mean the idea of not having a hundred percent is 5 

## that you just don't want an outlier to stop -- an 6 

## outlier or two to stop the process. That's what 7 

## we're saying. 8 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: And this is Charlie with 9 

## ACCA. 10 

## I agree with that. On the Regional 11 

## Standards Enforcement I think we had two issues where 12 

## we could not come to consensus, if I'm not mistaken. 13 

## And I think on the ones that we did there was a 14 

## report that there was one no vote, and I think that 15 

## was helpful for the record probably for the ASRAC to 16 

## understand what happened during the committee --. 17 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Recalling 18 

## that, I think I was the one no vote, and I was 19 

## persuaded at the last minute to change my mind. 20 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: No, no, I'm thinking of -- 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That was pumps I think 22 

## you're thinking of.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. 2 

## The one I'm thinking of was -- 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The PTAX vote on -- 4 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: No, no, it was PHCC had 5 

## voted no on one of the votes that we did on 6 

## enforcement. That wasn't the PTAX. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It wasn't? 8 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: No. 9 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, I was thinking 10 

## Regional Standards Enforcement, and I was thinking at 11 

## the end -- 12 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yeah, it was the 13 

## certification of PTAX. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I was thinking 15 

## certification of -- I'm sorry. 16 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Certification of a split 17 

## system residential -- 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Got it. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: -- air conditioning. 20 

## Anyway, we're close I think to agreement. 21 

## MR. BANTLE: So, it seems to me we have a 22 

## three. We have a suggestion on four, and the threeCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## was the last suggestion. Thoughts from the group. 2 

## Comment on the three. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 4 

## So, using Charlie's example, I think, I 5 

## think three works perfectly because if his block is 6 

## two he would need to convince another block to join 7 

## his side. I think that's the way this thing is 8 

## supposed to work, so I'm going to say three is my 9 

## preferred. 10 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 11 

## MR. SHOWS: This is Mike Shows with UL. 12 

## So, just to clarify, it's three 13 

## irrespective of whether it's 12 or 17. It doesn't 14 

## matter how many people are voting it's just three is 15 

## the number. 16 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 17 

## MR. SHOWS: Correct? 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, that's the assumption 19 

## that I've been working under. 20 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 21 

## MR. SHOWS: Okay. Cool. 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Should we have a show of --Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## see if we can try a consensus and see. 2 

## MR. BANTLE: Shall we try a consensus on 3 

## three? 4 

## MS. HOFFMAN: If there are three no votes, 5 

## there's no consensus. 6 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is Charlie with 7 

## ACCA. 8 

## I hate to go back. Do we need a quorum to 9 

## start the meeting? 10 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 11 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, at 9:00 a.m. we need 12 

## -- so, we need 12 to start. Okay. Thank you. 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, Harvey, is that a show 14 

## of thumbs. 15 

## MR. BANTLE: Or hands? 16 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Or hands. Yes, thumbs up? 17 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 18 

## Can alternates vote or no? 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 20 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes. 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: We go back to the -- oh, 22 

## right.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is just consensus and 2 

## then we'll go through the whole list of -- 3 

## MR. BANTLE: We're going to go back and 4 

## officially vote on everything. 5 

## MS. HOFFMAN: All of the other ones. 6 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Does anyone say no? Let's 8 

## do our normal way of voting. 9 

## MR. BANTLE: So, consensus is three. 10 

## Okay, any other suggestions from the group. You all 11 

## have experience in the negotiated rulemaking process. 12 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Do you want to do the vote 13 

## on the quorum? 14 

## MR. BANTLE: Shouldn't we vote on whether 15 

## or not alternate can vote first? 16 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So we can include them or 18 

## not? 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. 20 

## UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because Gary's 21 

## vote didn't count. 22 

## (Laughter.)Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: I informed him. 2 

## MS. HOFFMAN: All right, so can alternates 3 

## vote if they're properly designated? We're assuming 4 

## Gary is, so you didn't just rush in here -- 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Any no's? Raise your hand 6 

## if you're a no. 7 

## MS. HOFFMAN: -- wanting to visit 8 

## Washington, D.C. 9 

## MR. BANTLE: On alternates. And I see no 10 

## no's on alternates. 11 

## MS. HOFFMAN: All right, and we're talking 12 

## designated alternates, fully briefed. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: In good faith, though, 14 

## fully briefed or on the webcast. 15 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And that you'll let us know 16 

## the name of the alternate hopefully by the end of the 17 

## week. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: All right, so all in favor? 20 

## MR. BANTLE: 100 percent. 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: A hundred percent. Okay. 22 

## MR. BANTLE: Correct. Harvey, do you haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## a comment? 2 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Also, for outside comments 3 

## they're allowed. 4 

## MR. BANTLE: A lot of discretion with the 5 

## working group. And Eileen and I as facilitators will 6 

## keep track of that. 7 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And we in other reg negs 8 

## have said if you wanted someone from the outside 9 

## you'd introduce them. In other words, so it wasn't 10 

## just a public -- we will have time for the public to 11 

## speak, but if you want somebody you would be the 12 

## member saying I'd like "X" to come up and speak. 13 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. 14 

## I think what we're trying to say is most 15 

## of us have felt success with the participating coming 16 

## with the flow instead of having to back up and go 17 

## forward and back up. 18 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 19 

## MR. SACHS: So, I think we're less turns 20 

## out to have problems I think. 21 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes, as it naturally arises, 22 

## I'd like to recognize so-and-so to just add a littleCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## incentive. 2 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Proxy vote generally 3 

## not allowed, but special voting during extenuating 4 

## circumstances; is that what I heard? Now, we'll 5 

## interpret that is another issue, but was that -- 6 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 7 

## My understanding of the term "special" the 8 

## way John characterized it was the member voting, but 9 

## through an alternative to the normal means. For 10 

## example, by email or telephone. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Which is different, by 12 

## definition, than a proxy vote, in my mind. 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. All right, is there 14 

## an agreement on that? 15 

## MR. BANTLE: Can we get a show of hands on 16 

## that one, any no votes? 17 

## (Vote taken.) 18 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 19 

## MR. BANTLE: Is that the end of the list, 20 

## though? 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: The quorum. 22 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, quorum. So, we haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## quorum set at 12, and that includes remote 2 

## participants. Show of hands any no votes? 3 

## (Vote taken.) 4 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 5 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, I didn't see no no 6 

## votes. 7 

## Okay, that covers kind of the major rules. 8 

## Any other suggested rules just from your previous 9 

## experience that you'd like to add to the list -- and 10 

## we will type this up and disseminate it. 11 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, many of you have served 12 

## on other committees. Is there some ground rule you 13 

## want to make sure we have in there? 14 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 15 

## My observation has been this is the 16 

## quickest we've ever come to agreement on these 17 

## things. 18 

## (Applause.) 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you. 20 

## MR. BANTLE: So, we will move forward with 21 

## this list. 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. BANTLE: We will obviously memorialize 2 

## those. If at some point in the process something is 3 

## not working for anyone you know that's why Eileen and 4 

## I are here. 5 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 6 

## MR. BANTLE: Bring it to our attention, 7 

## and us, as facilitators, can address that. 8 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Right. 9 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay? 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Andrew DeLaski. 11 

## This isn't a ground rule, but I guess I'm 12 

## back to this notion that if anyone finds themselves 13 

## not participating I just would ask that they should 14 

## resign I guess. 15 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: I would hope that people if 17 

## they find themselves unable to fulfill what the 18 

## committee's going to be doing that they should 19 

## resign. 20 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: It's not a rule, but I think 22 

## it's a courtesy.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: You know and I said that 2 

## in my opening pretty strongly and I mean it. I mean 3 

## you know don't bring the New Yorker out in me, but I 4 

## really feel that you know we're all committing a lot 5 

## of time. And if you're not going to be one of those 6 

## people to commit as well just do the right thing. 7 

## Spend your time the way you want to spend it. 8 

## MR. BANTLE: Thank you. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, we're at a point now 10 

## where we could take a quick break and then do 11 

## scheduling, or we can hammer it out before 10:30 and 12 

## break at 10:30. Anyone have a strong preference? 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: So, we'll see you about 14 

## 10:30. 15 

## MR. BANTLE: 10:30, about 15, 20 minutes. 16 

## (Whereupon, a break was taken at 10:11 17 

## a.m.) 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, let's get started 19 

## again. There were a few points on ground rules that 20 

## we noticed from one of the other working groups that 21 

## are probably pretty important to cover here, at least 22 

## from the Department's perspective. And so now thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## we've defined consensus we can actually take votes on 2 

## some of these concepts. 3 

## You know I talked a little bit about at 4 

## term sheet, and so at the end of this process 5 

## there'll be a term sheet that will be floated up to 6 

## ASRAC. We're going to be taking notes as we go. 7 

## We're going to record every vote, and we're going to 8 

## create this term sheet. And at the end of the 9 

## process we'll go through it and make sure everybody's 10 

## happy with it. That's what will be passed forward to 11 

## ASRAC to vote on. So, DOE agrees to take this term 12 

## sheet and incorporate it into a NOPR. 13 

## And then we get into the interesting part 14 

## down here that we're going to need to all vote on. 15 

## So, it's Letter "C" through "F" here on this page. 16 

## So, I'm just going to read the statement for the 17 

## record. 18 

## So, no negative comments, each party, 19 

## except individuals that have previously voted 20 

## negatively on the final agreement agrees not to file 21 

## negative comments or to speak negatively on the 22 

## proposed standard or its preamble to the extent theyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## have the same substance and effect of the term sheet. 2 

## So, in layman's terms, what this means is 3 

## if you didn't vote no you should not also file 4 

## negative comments to the thing t hat you didn't vote 5 

## no on. And so, I'm going to throw that out there for 6 

## a vote. Are there any no votes to accepting this 7 

## into the ground rules? 8 

## (Vote taken.) 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, seeing none, 10 

## response to public comments. DOE will consider all 11 

## relevant comments submitted concerning the NOPR and 12 

## will make such modifications of the proposed standard 13 

## and its preamble as are necessary when issuing the 14 

## final standard. 15 

## So, what that means is we'll take the term 16 

## sheet, but obviously that go into some sort of a 17 

## public document where DOE will receive public 18 

## comments. What we're saying here is that we will 19 

## incorporate those public comments into that rule. 20 

## We don't have to vote on that. We're just 21 

## saying we're going to do that. 22 

## "E," no adverse action and support eachCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## party, except individuals that have previously voted 2 

## negatively on the final agreement agrees not to take 3 

## any action to inhibit the adoption of the recommended 4 

## proposed standard as a final standard to the extent 5 

## the final standard and its preamble have the same 6 

## substance and effect of the term sheet. 7 

## So, here's it a little different because 8 

## we already have NOPRs out. So, what comes out of 9 

## this process, depending on what's decided, it could 10 

## be a final rule. It could be a -- NOPR, but it'll be 11 

## the term sheet that this group votes towards. So, 12 

## what this says here -- again, it's very similar to 13 

## "C," but it also goes a little bit further that 14 

## you'll agree with what is in the Notice. So, anybody 15 

## have any thoughts here, concerns, no votes? 16 

## (Vote taken.) 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Seeing none on that -- and 18 

## then finally, no challenge. So, each party, except 19 

## individuals that have previously voted negatively on 20 

## the final agreement, agrees not to take a position 21 

## materially inconsistent with the standard or 22 

## determination in court or in other forum to theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## extent that the final standard or determination and 2 

## its preamble have the same substance and effect as 3 

## the term sheet for a period of one year from the 4 

## effective date of the rule or rulemaking 5 

## determination. So, this is let DOE's big get on this 6 

## process. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: John, one question, what do 8 

## you mean by effective date? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, the effective date is 10 

## 60 days after publication. 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Jill from Trane. 12 

## Just to understand that a little bit more, 13 

## when you say 60 days after publication of the term 14 

## sheet and then one year from that; is that the 15 

## counter? 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, 60 days after 17 

## publication of whatever the rulemaking document that 18 

## comes from the incorporation of the term sheet. 19 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay, so the NOPR. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: For a final rule. 21 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Usually, I could just sayCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## NOPR because we hadn't had one yet, but since we have 2 

## NOPRs for these rules technically, we could get a 3 

## final rule out of this. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Got it. Okay. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Frankly speaking, but it 6 

## all depends. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: John, can we just pause on 8 

## that for a second. I think it's worth, sort of 9 

## emphasizing this point. So, the next step from a 10 

## federal regulatory perspective it can't be a NOPR 11 

## because you already have a NOPR out. It would have 12 

## to be a supplemental NOPR. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: Or it could be a final rule 15 

## provided that it meets the legal requirements, that 16 

## the NOPR gives you a sufficient basis for that final 17 

## rule. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Exactly, that it is a 19 

## logical outgrowth of the NOPR. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: Right. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And it's comments. That's 22 

## sort of the litmus test. But we haven't startedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## getting into the nitty gritty, so we honestly don't 2 

## know that, but whatever that document is that's what 3 

## this statement pertains to. So, any no votes on 4 

## this? 5 

## MR. BANTLE: Any questions? 6 

## MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner. And I 7 

## have a question, where did the one-year period on 8 

## this one come from? It just strikes me as strange. 9 

## You know in this process maybe this doesn't matter, 10 

## but if we were to do sort of a NOPR and then a final 11 

## rule out of this process it could fall out of the 12 

## one-year timeframe. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, again, I'm just 14 

## reading from a previous set of ground rules. We can 15 

## change that if that doesn't sound -- should it be two 16 

## years? 17 

## MS. WALTNER: I don't have a proposal. I 18 

## just -- yeah, I don't know I just think a bad 19 

## timeframe. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. I mean it seems to 21 

## me if I was not DOE and I was another member I'd say, 22 

## well, what I'm really you know voting on here is theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## product that comes out of this committee, whatever it 2 

## is and you're not committing to something that might 3 

## be after that because you don't have that certainty 4 

## that that was what you voted on, so I would think we 5 

## would want to restrict it to whatever this group 6 

## decides. 7 

## Now, if it's the one-year or two-year you 8 

## know that's not something I'm particularly wedded to 9 

## in any way, shape, or form. 10 

## MR. BANTLE: Any alternative solutions or 11 

## timeframes from the group? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, show of hands. 13 

## Again, raise your hand if it's a no on the one-year. 14 

## (Vote taken.) 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The rest of the stuff we 16 

## kind of went over already, so I think we're good on 17 

## ground rules, unless somebody else -- you know this 18 

## may have spurred some other thoughts in people's 19 

## minds. Rusty? 20 

## MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. 21 

## Looking back to the commercial 22 

## certification, one thing we addressed was subgroupsCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## just in case. I don't know if we want to develop 2 

## some subgroups I don't know if we need to address 3 

## this at this point in time or not, but I think you 4 

## might want to. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, that's on this 6 

## document too. I'll post it up here. So, what we 7 

## just said that subgroups could be formed, no more 8 

## than 15 people on a subgroup, and as needed, DOE 9 

## would provide technical support to the subgroups. 10 

## That's something you know we will do regardless of 11 

## needing it to be in the ground rules or not, but if 12 

## you want to memorialize it in the ground rules I'm 13 

## okay with that. 14 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And I believe some members 15 

## of the subgroup don't have to be members of the 16 

## committee. They can be experts, whatever. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean it just says here 18 

## that the subgroups are not authorized to make 19 

## decisions for the working group as a whole. I think 20 

## you know the idea here is the subgroup would report 21 

## back to this group. 22 

## MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## So John, Eileen mentioned that the 2 

## subgroup could consist of people from outside the 3 

## working group; that's correct? 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I think the subgroup 5 

## could rely on extra technical expertise. I think I 6 

## might differ with the approach. I think that the 7 

## subgroup members could be members of the committee. 8 

## I don't know if anyone else has some thoughts. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 10 

## It seemed to me that if you get someone 11 

## who has expertise and you want to bring them on the 12 

## group whether they are -- since this is a nonvoting 13 

## group anyway, they're just going to report back to 14 

## the actual whole authority, which is this committee. 15 

## It's almost a distinction kind of difference. 16 

## Whether they're on the group or not in the group, 17 

## they're in the meeting. They're contributing. Call 18 

## them one group. I don't think it matters. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, my only sense is it 20 

## seems -- I don't know how we could you know make 21 

## people do work if they're not kind of part of the 22 

## group, but I'm okay either way. You know I wouldCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## think -- you know the way it worked for transformers 2 

## the subgroups that were formed were all members of 3 

## the working group. They brought in technical experts 4 

## to help guide them and that's fine, but I think this 5 

## group should appoint members of this working group to 6 

## be the members of the subgroup. 7 

## MR. WHITWELL: Okay, so it would be 8 

## members of the working group that are the subgroup, 9 

## but we could bring in other people -- 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: To assist. 11 

## MR. WHITWELL: -- to work with the 12 

## subgroup. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: That makes sense to me. 14 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 

## MR. DELASKI: Because I'm thinking about 16 

## you and Dick, for example. Dick's there with you, 17 

## but you're there too because you're going to carry it 18 

## back to the group. 19 

## MR. WHITWELL: Exactly. 20 

## MR. DELASAKI: That's your job. 21 

## MR. WHITWELL: That's what I was looking 22 

## for.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think that's the way it 2 

## should work. 3 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay, I'm good with that. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, if everyone's 5 

## okay I mean we could adopt this language wholesale. 6 

## MR. BANTLE: And we do have the 15-person 7 

## number there. Do we want to leave it so it gives us 8 

## the freedom, thoughts from the group? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we only have 17. 10 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes, we only have 17 people 11 

## total that's why it came to my attention. 12 

## MR. DELAKSI: If it's more than 15, it's 13 

## not a subgroup. 14 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes. But probably something 15 

## that doesn't necessarily need to be changed at the 16 

## moment. 17 

## Okay, a vote on accepting this language as 18 

## is on the board. And just raise your hand if it's a 19 

## no again. We'll follow our consensus. 20 

## (Vote taken.) 21 

## MR. BANTLE: No no's. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Great. Any otherCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## issues from members of the group? I mean we've got 2 

## everything here already; consensus, quorum, 3 

## subgroups, and we've gone through the agreement. 4 

## Okay. All right, so we'll go now back to 5 

## the part trying to schedule some meetings I think is 6 

## the next topic. 7 

## MR. BANTLE: Correct. 8 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Does everyone have the 9 

## doodle results? 10 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, the days were outlined 11 

## in the doodle May 11, May 12, May 21, May 22, June 1, 12 

## June 2, June 8, and June 15. Now, we do have the 13 

## votes. 14 

## John, I believe the percentage in there 15 

## was including facilitators. Correct? 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 17 

## MR. BANTLE: So, that's not necessarily a 18 

## quorum even though it does show 12. Any comments on 19 

## those dates, strong aversion to any of the dates in 20 

## particular? We can start at the beginning, the May 21 

## 11, May 12? 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: You also may want to get theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## votes from these folks. 2 

## MR. BANTLE: Correct. I think some of 3 

## them are alternates. 4 

## MR. SHOWS: This is Mike Shows with UL. I 5 

## missed the doodle. Sorry about that. 6 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, no problem. 7 

## MR. SHOWS: I'm transferring from Asia, 8 

## but all the dates that are there I would be available 9 

## for. 10 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Good. 11 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Charlie, I know you're 13 

## heading to North Carolina. Do you want to be a 14 

## little more specific on when that -- 15 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: It's the week of May 11. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It is? 17 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. So, I'm just looking 18 

## at my calendar now. Monday is my travel day. 19 

## Tuesday I can certainly be available in the afternoon 20 

## and do what I can in the morning. I'm going to try 21 

## to work around on Monday. 22 

## MR. BANTLE: Any of the other dates.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. MCCRUDDEN: I haven't even gotten that 2 

## far yet. 3 

## MR. BANTLE: No problem. One first 4 

## question, we'll focus on the May 11 and 12th -- and 5 

## this is also to John. Those are coming up quickly. 6 

## What will be discussed? Are we going to have enough 7 

## to discuss on those first two dates, which is I think 8 

## what I'm trying to get to? 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So, we have it here. 10 

## (Slide.) 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, on the screen this was 12 

## something we put together without really 13 

## cross-referencing the doodle poll, but sort of 14 

## outlines what we think -- how things are going to 15 

## move without the benefit of learning what we might 16 

## learn this afternoon. So, obviously, this is just a 17 

## straw man, but this is something the team thinks is 18 

## something they can do analytically to help move 19 

## things along. 20 

## So, personally, I think -- you know 21 

## Charlie's schedule notwithstanding, the 11th and 12th 22 

## are two critical next dates in my mind. Obviously, ICommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## think next week is probably too soon, but I think in 2 

## two-weeks time I think is a good spot to get us back 3 

## in the room. I know there were other conflicts later 4 

## in the week for at least a couple of us. 5 

## MS. WALTNER: So, just a question, that 6 

## 5/7 date is definitive as to when we'll have the 7 

## updated -- 8 

## MR. MILSLAK: I mean the goal is to have it 9 

## done by the end of this week or possibly early next 10 

## week, so that should be possible. The members are 11 

## all getting it together now. 12 

## MS. WALTNER: Okay. 13 

## MR. MILSLAK: Nick. 14 

## Just to follow up, I know there was an 15 

## earlier discussion there was a question of the 16 

## members having it done and then you guys at -- having 17 

## to anonymous it. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 19 

## MR. MILSLAK: But that shouldn't take very 20 

## long to do. I mean once we have it we can compile it 21 

## and it should be a pretty quick process once we get 22 

## the data from the members to do it. YourCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## expectation is that you'll have the data from members 2 

## at the end of this week; is that what you said? 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Or early next week. 4 

## MR. MILSLAK: Okay. 5 

## MR. BANTLE: So, specifically, we're 6 

## looking at that 11th and 12th. Louis, I know you 7 

## were one that we didn't have your info. 8 

## MR. STARR: Yes. So, the 11th and 12th is 9 

## fine. 10 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. And then we're also 11 

## missing information from Marshall and Karen, who we 12 

## have alternates for today. I don't know if you can 13 

## speak to any availability. 14 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for the 15 

## California IOUs and Marshall. 16 

## All I know at this point is that Marshall 17 

## will be back from Italy on May 8, and any time 18 

## subsequent to that at least he'll be in the country. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. So, Paul will 20 

## you have an alternate for the 12th do you think? 21 

## MR. DOPPEL: It depends on the flight. I 22 

## need to be someplace on the 13th, so I may be able toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## make a good part of the day. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 3 

## MR. DOPPEL: And then I'll get a proxy. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll give you a proxy. 5 

## And then Andrew, I guess the same question to you. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm in town the 12th. I'm 7 

## just speaking at another event. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 9 

## MR. DELASKI: So, I should be in and out. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Good. All right. 11 

## So, Charlie -- I don't want to say "Sorry Charlie," 12 

## but do you think it's possible that there's anyone 13 

## that can -- 14 

## MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes, I'll make something 15 

## happen. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Great. So, why 17 

## don't we book the 11th and 12th? Block that. 18 

## MS. HOFFMAN: And is it exact 9:00 to 5:00 19 

## both days. I'm looking at travels. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It doesn't have to be. We 21 

## have the room from 9:00 to 5:00. 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, I understand.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: We might be able to start 2 

## a little earlier to get people out the second day 3 

## earlier, but you know why don't we be flexible on 4 

## time? 5 

## MS. HOFFMAN: I was going to say I would 6 

## like it on the second day if we could be like an 8:00 7 

## to 4:00 because I can get a flight, better choices if 8 

## I'm out of here by 4:00. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so why don't we just 10 

## say we'll end at 4:00 on the second day and we'll 11 

## work on the start time. 12 

## MR. SHOWS: Hey John, I got a question. 13 

## Mike Shows with UL. 14 

## The week of the 25th I'm seeing an 15 

## in-person meeting there, but I don't see anything on 16 

## this list that week. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Again, these two 18 

## were created in separate parts of the country. So, 19 

## what the team was doing was using their kind of work 20 

## schedule when they can get things done as opposed to 21 

## when Memorial Day might fall on the calendar. 22 

## MR. BANTLE: So, we were looking at theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## 21st and 22nd. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 3 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. And does that still 4 

## work with the team's deadlines? 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I think a couple days 6 

## isn't going to make or break it. I'm seeing my 7 

## overtime charges go up. We're still solvent at the 8 

## current moment. So, looking down at the doodle poll 9 

## again looks really good there, and then just the same 10 

## questions to Michael. Michael said he was good on 11 

## all of them. Louis, the 21st and 22nd? 12 

## MR. STARR: Yes. I prefer not the 22nd. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Again, we can get out 14 

## early that date. I know it's a Friday. 15 

## MR. STARR: I have to get to Washington 16 

## State, but I can make work if we can't do some -- the 17 

## 22nd is really the only problem I have with the whole 18 

## schedule, but it would be great if we could push that 19 

## back to Wednesday and Thursday, but if we can't I can 20 

## make Friday. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, I do have the room 22 

## available on the 20th.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. BANTLE: Yes. So, I think we're 2 

## looking at maybe the 20th and 21st? 3 

## MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. 4 

## I'll be in Mexico on the 20th, but I 5 

## could, if it's best for the group, I could have my 6 

## alternate attend that day. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Would the group prefer the 8 

## Wednesday/Thursday as opposed to the Thursday/Friday. 9 

## MR. THARP: It is Memorial Day Weekend. 10 

## Wednesday/Thursday is going to make travel plans 11 

## easier for those who have to travel. 12 

## MS. WALTNER: Yes, I think some of us 13 

## would actually like to stay in the area. 14 

## (Sidetalk.) 15 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, temperature check from 16 

## the room, 20/21, just show of hands. 17 

## (Show of hands.) 18 

## MR. BANTLE: And this would be a yes, not 19 

## a no. 20 

## MS. HOFFMAN: A yes? 21 

## MR. BANTLE: Yes, a yes for 20/21. Okay. 22 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Either one is fine.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so let me book the 2 

## room. 3 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, so we will make that 4 

## change. 5 

## MR. SHOWS: I'm still trying to 6 

## cross-reference these two documents. So, this week 7 

## of 5/18 there's an attempt to have a webinar for that 8 

## week. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, I kind of 10 

## skipped over those sections now because I want to go 11 

## back to that once we get into the content this 12 

## afternoon to see -- personally, I'm still not 13 

## comfortable where we are right now because I haven't 14 

## actually gotten a readout from the last two days. 15 

## That would help. 16 

## So yes, we can put a placeholder there, 17 

## but if you don't mind maybe we can just lock in the 18 

## in-person meetings -- yes. 19 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, so then one and two are 20 

## the next dates on the Google Doodle. And just 21 

## looking at the numbers, in the Google Doodle these 22 

## were a little lower, so we want to get this firmedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## up. 2 

## Michael was all the way through. Louis, 3 

## one and two? 4 

## MR. STARR: That's fine. 5 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Meg, do you think you 7 

## could have an alternate? 8 

## MS. WALTNER: I will work on that. I 9 

## definitely can't --. 10 

## MR. SHOWS: Hey John, the only change for 11 

## me is the week of the 11th of May. I'm going to have 12 

## to do that via webinar. I'm not going to be 13 

## available in person here. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fine. 15 

## MR. BANTLE: Any strong concerns from the 16 

## group on the first and second? 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay. 19 

## MR. STARR: In general, I guess I don't 20 

## mind traveling on Sunday, but it always would be 21 

## better to travel on Monday. I don't know. If 22 

## everybody else is fine with those days, I am, but ICommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## kind of like traveling on Monday and then having to 2 

## leave on Tuesday and Wednesday. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I do not have a room for 4 

## June 3, unfortunately. 5 

## MR. STARR: Okay. 6 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I was going to say I 7 

## understand what you're saying, but I could not 8 

## participate third, fourth, and fifth, so I'd have to 9 

## have an alternate. 10 

## MR. HURST: We do have the room for the 11 

## first and second? 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Correct. 13 

## MR. HURST: Well, it sounds like we're 14 

## shot. 15 

## (Sidetalk.) 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, just so everyone 17 

## knows, the May 12 meeting will be at HRI in 18 

## Arlington. We'll provide more details on it. It's 19 

## right at the Courthouse metro stop, but the 11th will 20 

## be here. 21 

## MR. HURST: John, will Jeremiah send out 22 

## an invite calendar?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, we'll put all this on 2 

## everyone's calendar. 3 

## MR. HURST: Thank you. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And we're also going to 5 

## set up a share point site as well with all of your 6 

## emails and the alternate's emails for access to all 7 

## the documents and we'll blast that out as well. 8 

## MR. BANTLE: So, the next date on the 9 

## Google Doodle was June 8. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so then that's when 11 

## we're coming into the home stretch and so I have both 12 

## June 8 and June 9 held for rooms. The question is do 13 

## we need to book two days or one day when we get to 14 

## this point in the schedule? 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's one of the ones -- I 16 

## mean kind of like Louis said maybe you know do we 17 

## make that -- do you start at noon. You couldn't even 18 

## get here by noon, could you? I don't know from 19 

## there, so sorry. But we've done it twice now where 20 

## we're traveling on a Sunday, so that's all I'm just 21 

## saying is maybe -- 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I have the eighth,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## ninth, tenth. I have the whole week room 2 

## availability, so I'm agnostic to dates. 3 

## (Sidetalk.) 4 

## MR. BANTLE: Just one note, all of our 5 

## facilitators, including Javier, we are booked I think 6 

## the eighth, ninth, tenth, so facilitation would have 7 

## to be the 11th or 12th, I believe, that week. 8 

## (Sidetalk.) 9 

## MR. DOPPEL: I can't make it. The first 10 

## two days of the week I can make, but not the last 11 

## three. So, you're saying the facilitators can't 12 

## support that. 13 

## MR. BANTLE: Not the beginning of the 14 

## week, no. I think Eileen's out. And I'm actually 15 

## out at the West Coast well as, so I'll be flying 16 

## back, and then Javier can be here starting the 10th, 17 

## 10/11. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean if the group says 19 

## we need to go the dates they can't make it, we'll 20 

## make do. 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, we'll figure out 22 

## something. We have more staff.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: But the 10th and 11th 2 

## worked for everybody? 3 

## MR. DOPPEL: I can't make anything the 4 

## last three days of the week. 5 

## MR. BANTLE: Thoughts from the group? I 6 

## think it's currently scheduled for the eight/ninth 7 

## and then there was also the suggestion of the 8 

## 10th/11th, those two options. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Without the facilitators, 10 

## can we reach a quorum on the ninth and the tenth? 11 

## Kind of take what are your days and what are their 12 

## days. 13 

## MR. BANTLE: Ninth and tenth? 14 

## MR. STARR: I can support the ninth and 15 

## tenth. Sure. That's replacing the first and second? 16 

## MR. BANTLE: Replacing eighth and ninth. 17 

## MR. STARR: Eighth and ninth? Okay. 18 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, any objections to nine 19 

## and ten? 20 

## (No response.) 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. And then at that 22 

## point you know we have the 15th here, but I'm goingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## to vote for maybe doing that on a webinar since it's 2 

## the last day. I'll just leave it at that unless 3 

## someone has a strong -- I know Monday sounds like a 4 

## tough travel day. It might be easier to get the 5 

## group on the phone if we have to. 6 

## MR. MILSLAK: I won't be available then. 7 

## I'll have to call in from a foreign country. 8 

## MR. STARR: Can we go down the list one 9 

## more time just to make sure everybody's on the same 10 

## calendar. 11 

## MR. BANTLE: May 11, May 12 it's at HRI in 12 

## Arlington. May 20 and May 21, June 1, June 2, June 13 

## 9, June 10, and June 15 potentially via webinar. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: So, it seems to me -- this 15 

## is Andrew -- the ninth and the tenth is where the 16 

## target date we're kind of getting to the final 17 

## decision. 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Those are the 19 

## important dates. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: If you can't make those 21 

## dates, then you've got to have an alternate. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, absolutely. And thenCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I think we hold the 15th for cleanup, if necessary, 2 

## on a webinar. 3 

## MS. DELASKI: Yes. I mean the awkward 4 

## thing is the facilitators who have guided us to that 5 

## point will no longer be available. 6 

## MS. HOFFMAN: We'll see what we can do. 7 

## MR. BANTLE: We can put the word out and 8 

## see what we can do. 9 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, I might be able to make 10 

## it for the 10th. I'm flying to Atlanta for a 11 

## program, but I can figure something out. We'll work 12 

## it out. You won't be alone. And if we are, Harvey 13 

## will facilitate. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And I'll just say the May 15 

## 21 meeting will be held in the building that I 16 

## actually work in at LaFont Plaza on the eighth floor. 17 

## We will obviously put that in writing. 18 

## (Sidetalk.) 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And you know it's good 20 

## that this group was first because we have three 21 

## working groups going on, so we got first dibs of 22 

## everything.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I'll be curious 2 

## because we nominated somebody else for that, so I 3 

## didn't know how the overlap still happened. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We basically booked every 5 

## space there was for the whole summer, so we got what 6 

## we got. 7 

## Okay, so that's good. I think we've got a 8 

## good schedule planned out for ourselves. We'll 9 

## circulate all the dates. We'll make calendar entries 10 

## for everybody. We'll set up the share point site. 11 

## We'll get the documents out on there. And I think at 12 

## this point it's actually time to turn to the content 13 

## portion of the briefing. 14 

## Okay, so I'm just going to take us through 15 

## a few slides where things stand sort of in the 16 

## regulatory history here. 17 

## (Slide.) 18 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, basically, this 19 

## rulemaking kind of kicked off with an RIF back in 20 

## February of 2013, and we also published a NOPR in 21 

## September for the air conditioner portion of this 22 

## rule. Later on, we published the furnace portion.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, the background here for the unitary 2 

## AC's -- I'm not going to read through this, but 3 

## there's basically what the current federal standards 4 

## are, the mapping of the IEER, and then the proposed 5 

## federal standard that we put out in the fall. 6 

## (Slide.) 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: For the furnaces, we put 8 

## out the NOPR back in February. And you could see 9 

## what the proposal is there vis- -vis where things 10 

## stand today. 11 

## (Slide.) 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And so, just to go back, 13 

## the third bullet here is something that is important 14 

## because I think a lot of people in the room and 15 

## people not in the room did a lot of legwork ahead of 16 

## this meeting in response to the NOPR and tried to 17 

## think about the analytics to move forward from the 18 

## NOPR, so I think something we just wanted to point 19 

## out. 20 

## What we're really going to focus in on 21 

## here today with the content, and I'm going to turn it 22 

## over to the technical team, is what you see here inCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the red circles. And so, we'll talk about the 2 

## engineering analysis more and the energy use as well. 3 

## So, at this point this is where things turn to 4 

## technical for someone like me, so I'm going to step 5 

## off the podium. 6 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: We didn't really rehearse 7 

## this, but I figure this is where the engineering 8 

## material and Navigant Consulting comes in. 9 

## My name is Detlef Westphalen and I'm with 10 

## Navigant Consulting and we worked on the engineering 11 

## analysis. Some of our staff also worked on impact 12 

## analysis and will be involved in some of the later 13 

## meetings as well. 14 

## As John mentioned, there was a NOPR 15 

## published last fall. There were written comments and 16 

## public meeting comments provided in the wake of the 17 

## publication of the NOPR. There were also working 18 

## group meetings held you know which we participated 19 

## you know with a lot of the people here in this room 20 

## and probably that are on the webinar as well. 21 

## And so, with all of those comments and all 22 

## of that input you know we have considered revisionsCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## to the analyses that were presented in the NOPR, and 2 

## the next few tables indicate some of these revisions. 3 

## And you know we went over some of this with some of 4 

## you last week in a couple formal meetings, but we 5 

## just wanted to go through and indicate which of these 6 

## issues we feel have been resolved and that we can 7 

## then take the input and run with it and continue with 8 

## the analysis. 9 

## And then for those issues that haven't 10 

## been resolved certainly those are up for discussion 11 

## and for the working group here to work on and decide 12 

## on. 13 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 14 

## The question in my mind is the top row of 15 

## Slide 56. Baseline units with EER lower than the 16 

## current standards analysis based and the approach 17 

## removed to units that need the current EER. And I 18 

## guess at some point are you going to be talking a 19 

## little bit more about the EER to IEER transition? 20 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: That is something that we 21 

## could discuss. We haven't prepared any charts 22 

## showing the EER versus IEER and the scanner for theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## different classes. I guess I would ask is there 2 

## something particular that you'd like to see there? 3 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. 4 

## I'm not sure. Obviously, anti-backsliding 5 

## raises its ugly head, but I'm just not quite sure 6 

## what was done as we made that transition to establish 7 

## the equivalence and I'm not sure that equivalence is 8 

## even the right word. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's 9 

## not between an EER and IEER in terms of projected 10 

## energy use. 11 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary speaking 12 

## for the California IOUs. 13 

## I'd like to follow up on Harvey's thought. 14 

## The EER is particularly important to us, given the 15 

## hot weather performance and our need to know that in 16 

## order to characterize the energy utilization and 17 

## savings in our hot central valley. So, having a good 18 

## understanding of that relationship is critically 19 

## important for us. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 21 

## I think what Detlef is doing now is sort 22 

## of walking us through changes or potential changes toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the analysis, which I think makes this really 2 

## constructive. 3 

## I have a handful of kind of legal 4 

## questions that I would hope would surface at some 5 

## point. Maybe I can surface them later today -- now 6 

## is not the moment clearly ^^^^ so that the DOE legal 7 

## counsel can be thinking about them so then we know 8 

## some of the parameters or some of the limits of what 9 

## we can ultimately negotiate. 10 

## And this kind of relates to the EER 11 

## question you know, but I have time later on today you 12 

## know to put those on the agenda for Eric to consider. 13 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. 14 

## I think it might be a nice idea to maybe 15 

## get some of those on the table before the lunch break 16 

## so that if any questions stump me then I could have 17 

## good consultation time. Maybe I can get something 18 

## back to you or just tell you we have to defer it 19 

## until the next meeting or something, but you know if 20 

## I hear what they are that would be helpful. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: Well, should I just run 22 

## through them quickly? Would that be helpful?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STAS: Yes. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: The one question is can DOE 3 

## maintain an EER the way it is? So, tell me how an 4 

## EER is better and have the EER standard, right, if 5 

## there's consensus. And the DOE has said in the past 6 

## it can't do two metrics. For residential air 7 

## conditioners we have sear and EER now. So, is that a 8 

## potential outcome of this negotiation in metrics? 9 

## Another is could we come up with a 10 

## standard that goes -- come up with two standards, one 11 

## that goes into effect in Year X and one that goes 12 

## into effect in Year Y? So, for residential cloth 13 

## washers there was a negotiated ^^^^ privately 14 

## negotiated outcome. Twice this has happened now that 15 

## the standard goes into effect with one level of 16 

## stringency in year and another level of stringency 17 

## some years later, so maybe a relatively modest 18 

## standard initially and a more aggressive one in a 19 

## second year? 20 

## Related to that is a separate question, 21 

## but related is flexibility on compliance date. To 22 

## what degree is the Department legally limited to aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## particular compliance date. Are we completely free 2 

## as a committee to negotiate whatever compliance dates 3 

## we see fit? And I would say that in terms of what's 4 

## the nearest term we could negotiate and is there some 5 

## outer limit that would be sort of outside of legal 6 

## bounds? And I look to the dishwasher more recently 7 

## was negotiated, and we did a pretty quick compliance 8 

## date in that case. I think that might be it. 9 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 10 

## The corollary to dual metric is whether 11 

## recognizing the large difference between the 90.1 12 

## approach, which includes prescriptive features and 13 

## the DOE approach, which shall we say is strongly 14 

## discouraging. Consensus were to be reached and 15 

## included some prescriptive features. Is that within 16 

## bounds for this process? 17 

## MR. STAS: I assume you're saying in 18 

## addition to standard levels, right? 19 

## MR. SACHS: In addition to standard 20 

## levels. And again, this might be something that is 21 

## simple, but it's conceptionally simple is 22 

## incorporating the economizing rules for metricCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## standard 90.1. 2 

## MR. SACHS: I guess I would add to that, 3 

## Eric, you know we're asking the context of this 4 

## committee's work, right, so as an out outgrowth of 5 

## this committee you know what's in our scope, which 6 

## may be different -- I recognize may be different than 7 

## what the agency might decide it could do in a 8 

## different context and are there things that we have 9 

## to do differently to do in a particular way? 10 

## MR. STAS: Well, thanks for these. These 11 

## are all good questions, and I sort of anticipated 12 

## them coming and I try to have others thinking about 13 

## them, and now I put them squarely before them. 14 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. 15 

## And they're not completely off the wall 16 

## since one of the issues that we've been faced with is 17 

## the issue of trying to get some correlation, both in 18 

## timing and in context as we have these multiple paths 19 

## marching forward with CEC, ASRAC 90.1, and DOE 20 

## standards. And it's hard for me to keep up. It's 21 

## probably a whole lot harder for a manufacturer. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Hopefully, you can give usCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## some initial take, but I hope you can get back the 2 

## analysis. I think, ultimately, we need to make 3 

## progress on analysis to basis for discussions. 4 

## MR. STAS: Yes. I mean I would say given 5 

## the weight of these questions I don't know the answer 6 

## will be forthcoming by after lunch you know, so I 7 

## think we can go through the substance of all these 8 

## things and get all the ground rules and everything 9 

## else going. And hopefully, by the next meeting or in 10 

## advance of the next meeting should have some answers 11 

## for you I would hope. 12 

## MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 13 

## Along the lines of what Harvey and Andrew 14 

## were talking about, if there was an agreement that 15 

## added in some design criteria or two standards for 16 

## these next rounds that we would agree to, could the 17 

## second one go away at some point in time? So, the 18 

## question to follow up is you know if we agreed to a 19 

## design standard that has technology and goes down the 20 

## road would we be stuck with that permanently or is 21 

## that something that could go away, depending on 22 

## technology at the next round of rulemaking?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STAS: That's a very good question, 2 

## and I guess my response would be you know you're 3 

## familiar with the statute's anti-backsliding 4 

## provisions, so to the extent you're giving energy 5 

## savings attributable to that design requirement if 6 

## it's at all possible we would want to look and see 7 

## whether the new standard that would come after that 8 

## would make up for whatever you're losing by 9 

## sunsetting something. 10 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 11 

## Point of clarification on this, the 12 

## right-hand column it says "additional input 13 

## required." If it says none, I just want to make sure 14 

## that we're not precluded form bringing these topics 15 

## up again. 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think these are open for 17 

## discussion. 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. The intent was to 19 

## represent what we thought we heard in the discussions 20 

## last week, but clearly, if some of these are still 21 

## open issues you know we should still put them on the 22 

## table and discuss them.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I think the whole 2 

## point of these sets of slides is like what Detlef 3 

## explained is what in our minds we think we got what 4 

## we need. If we are mistaken, we need to know that 5 

## now to move forward with the analysis. And then 6 

## you'll see ones where we don't think we have what we 7 

## need. So, this is definitely in the light of where 8 

## the analytical team thinks they are at the moment. 9 

## And if you don't think we have it right, we need to 10 

## know. 11 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 12 

## Are you looking for just any feedback on 13 

## this, or are you going to run us through it or what 14 

## are we going to do now? 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I think the attempt 16 

## was to go through one-by-one, hopefully quickly, and 17 

## you know if anybody says stop, we want to discuss 18 

## that. 19 

## MR. BANTLE: Before we move on, Mike, did 20 

## you have a question? 21 

## (No response.) 22 

## MR. BANTLE: So, think you want to back upCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## a slide, right? 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. So, I'll launch 3 

## into these tables here. The first issue was there 4 

## were comments that the tests results that DOE was 5 

## using on which it based its NOPR analyses were 6 

## somewhat more optimistic than reality, certainly than 7 

## rated, and you know the revision here is to base the 8 

## analysis on the ratings, not the test results. 9 

## And then component wattage profiles you 10 

## know would be developed for the units based on 11 

## specific models with target efficiency levels. And 12 

## by component wattage profiles, what I mean is 13 

## understanding, as you do the EBBR calculation what 14 

## are the wattages assigned to the different components 15 

## in those equations at the different load levels in 16 

## order to get that calculation? 17 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 18 

## I have a question. That sounds fine so 19 

## long as the test results are better than the ratings, 20 

## but if it were to work the other way around would you 21 

## then be looking at the ratings and not the test 22 

## results?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPALEN: Well, I think one of the 2 

## pointed comments you made in the written comments to 3 

## the NOPR had to do with the number of tests involved 4 

## and the number of tests that you know, as DOE's 5 

## contractors, had available to us to review in order 6 

## to determine what is the efficiency level of that 7 

## unit? You know all of these units that we were 8 

## looking at you know had results that were optimistic 9 

## or at the rated level. 10 

## MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 11 

## Yes, so that's my recollection is that all 12 

## of the tests results were higher than the rating. 13 

## And I guess the other issue is that the EEL levels, 14 

## particularly like at EEL3 were set based on these 15 

## tests results that are higher than what the ratings 16 

## were. So, not only was the analysis done on those 17 

## higher values, but that it also is what you used to 18 

## set the EL levels, so I think that's a bit of a 19 

## concern. 20 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, this is Gary. 21 

## Okay. Thank you. I understand. 22 

## MS. WALTNER: Just to make sure ICommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## understand, so the component wattage profiles those 2 

## are based on your testing of these specific units or 3 

## are those manufacturer provided values? 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: To the extent that we 5 

## can, we're taking the information from you know the 6 

## product literature. In some cases, we do have test 7 

## data. And you know some aspects of those test data 8 

## we have more reason to believe -- you know makes 9 

## sense to use, such as you know the control of the 10 

## power input, which is a fairly low number. And you 11 

## know the question of whether you have the cooling 12 

## load measurement correct does not really play very 13 

## much into you know how that particular wattage 14 

## impacts the IER measurement. So you know in some 15 

## cases we're using some of those wattage numbers in 16 

## what we're doing in our revised analysis. I mean 17 

## think we've been pretty open in showing where a lot 18 

## of the information comes from, and certainly you know 19 

## we can go into the nitty gritty detail if the group 20 

## wants to. 21 

## MS. WALTNER: Thank you. 22 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## The last one it says "Dual path analysis 2 

## for lower ELs while staging." It says "Consider 3 

## costs for upgrade," but then additional input is 4 

## none, so then you're not considering based on what 5 

## that says. So, that's kind of what I was bringing up 6 

## before. You know it says additional input none, but 7 

## then if there's going to be a consideration for cost 8 

## input then that should not say none. 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, should we go from 10 

## the front down and try to check them off. 11 

## MR. DOPPEL: Well, I just wanted to point 12 

## out the fact that that could be a problem on some of 13 

## these others, that same sort of thing. 14 

## MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. 15 

## I was going to say if you need us to 16 

## provide because you will not have that data 17 

## necessarily. You know so the action is not none you 18 

## may need us to provide that component wattage. Am I 19 

## not right because not always it's going to be there 20 

## to be there for you to use in the literature? 21 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. And I 22 

## think you know to some extent we're dealing with youCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## know, as John mentioned, the elephant in the room, 2 

## the June 15th date. And so you know we may decide, 3 

## as we look into this, that we cannot collect 4 

## sufficient information to our satisfaction and then 5 

## we may reach out again. 6 

## MR. DOPPEL: My concern is that by that 7 

## column saying none is that that -- I mean maybe that 8 

## should be disregarded. 9 

## MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. 10 

## I just wanted to comment, but the "none" 11 

## doesn't mean no action. It just means that we think 12 

## that we have the data and what we need, or we know 13 

## where to get it. And so certainly, if you all have 14 

## other things you think you can contribute that's 15 

## fine. I just want to clarify that it's not intended 16 

## to mean no action. It just means that we think we 17 

## have a plan to act upon. So, not that you can't 18 

## provide input, just we didn't think it was necessary. 19 

## MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 20 

## So, Detlef, if you're referring to the 21 

## previous discussions that were going on between 22 

## Navigant and some of the AHRI group, right?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. Yes. 2 

## MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I mean these slides 4 

## should look very familiar to the people that were 5 

## involved in those meetings. 6 

## So, I guess we're going back to the top 7 

## here. Any more comment on the suggested revision to 8 

## the analysis here basing the analysis on the units 9 

## that actually real units with real ratings whose 10 

## information can be obtained from product literature? 11 

## MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. 12 

## One of the things I think you need to keep 13 

## mind is that there is a very large variance of ER for 14 

## a given IER and the way a manufacturer may get to a 15 

## specific rating can vary significantly from one 16 

## manufacturer to another. And one, as we stated in 17 

## some of the meetings, I can get to a higher IER by my 18 

## compression technology, by my E transfer technology, 19 

## by my air moving technology. 20 

## So, just because we set a minimum IER 21 

## doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get better air 22 

## flow. I may chose to do it by heat transfer andCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## compression, whereas another manufacturer may chose 2 

## to do it by heat transfer and air movement. And 3 

## another may choose to do it a different way. 4 

## Just looking at what's in the docket 5 

## ERE2013-BT-SDT-007-01 for a 12 IER unit the ER varies 6 

## -- and this is DOE's analysis from the HIR directory 7 

## -- anywhere from just about 11 EER all the way up to 8 

## 12.2 for about 15 IER. It varies from about 12 to 13 9 

## somewhere range. It's a very broad range and we 10 

## need to consider how we address that issue in some of 11 

## this analysis. 12 

## I guess what I'm looking for would be that 13 

## we consider having -- looking at different wattage 14 

## profiles in some manner, shape, or form. 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, for each class at 16 

## each efficiency level instead of selecting a 17 

## representative unit select how many representative 18 

## units? 19 

## MR. THARP: That's something that the 20 

## working group would want to come up with is determine 21 

## how we're going to do that because you know if we 22 

## went to the 1033 buildings maybe we said. You knowCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I'm not suggesting this. I'm just saying that one 2 

## option would be a third would do one way, a third 3 

## would do another, and third would do it another way. 4 

## Whatever the technical experts come up with as the 5 

## most appropriate manner, but that's something that we 6 

## should be giving consideration to. 7 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi. Greg Rosenquist, 8 

## LBNL. 9 

## In doing that type of analysis, right, 10 

## we're doing the downstream from the engineering and 11 

## doing the energy use. We are completely dependent 12 

## upon the engineering to characterize the 13 

## characteristics of that equipment. So, if you want a 14 

## different type of equipment analyzed for each IER 15 

## level, it just puts additional burden on Navigant 16 

## folks to do that. And again, when I'm raising that 17 

## that to do that that would take time, and we don't 18 

## have much time. 19 

## So, the whole idea of using a 20 

## representative unit to characterize that IER level -- 21 

## I mean I understand your point, Rusty. I think it's 22 

## very valid, right, there's a huge range -- well, notCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## a huge, but there's a range of EER for a given IER, 2 

## but given the time we have I think we have to make a 3 

## decision whether or not we should try to capture that 4 

## or not. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 6 

## And I'm not sure I'm completely following 7 

## what you've done. But another way to address Rusty's 8 

## concern is instead of doing you know a third, a 9 

## third, a third is get a weighted average at the front 10 

## end, right, then you get a weighted average that 11 

## represents the population -- your best shot at 12 

## representing the population as opposed to a single 13 

## representative unit. 14 

## So, I guess that's the question back to D 15 

## lift, which is -- so, I mean that's the question, 16 

## right, do we have a representative unit that's truly 17 

## representative and how do we know it is? 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. I mean that's a 19 

## good question. And you know I can look at the data. 20 

## You know what's the fan power, how much power goes 21 

## into the compressor and you know based on all the 22 

## analysis I've done on these and say, okay, well, thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## looks about typical. You know certainly with all the 2 

## experience we have sitting around the table some of 3 

## the people will say, well no, that's not really 4 

## representative. It's more like this. 5 

## You know certainly we can get into that 6 

## level of detail and later on in the presentation I 7 

## show some of the representative selections, and we 8 

## can look at those. You know we haven't provided 9 

## those component wattage profiles for all of them, not 10 

## expecting to get this far in the meeting, but that's 11 

## something that we could do. And say, okay, well what 12 

## do you think. These are representative, or we could 13 

## do something like say, all right, let's choose an EER 14 

## that's in the middle of the range at that IEER level 15 

## and say, okay, well that's where we want to you know 16 

## target what the unit would be that would represent 17 

## that IEER. 18 

## MR. STARR: So, this is Louis Starr. 19 

## To some extent, your model is kind of base 20 

## model of each one of the EL levels; is that right, 21 

## for your component wattage profile? 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STARR: Or is just one right now, I 2 

## mean, except for EL0 or 1 you assume a certain IER, 3 

## which was probably the lowest of that then? 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we're aiming to 5 

## match the IEER exactly. And so what that does to the 6 

## EER -- I mean we haven't been systematic and saying, 7 

## okay, well if we selected one that was off by .1 on 8 

## IEER does that mean on the higher or lower on EER. 9 

## MR. STARR: Sorry, I didn't mean ER. So, 10 

## in this case what you probably gone and saw what's 11 

## the most typical way people -- or is there multiple 12 

## models at a given EER level that someone got to the 13 

## same method by two different ways. In other words, 14 

## kind of what Rusty was alluding to that different 15 

## combinations to get to that level that's not a 16 

## typical -- in other words, the typical layout of the 17 

## units. Is that kind of right? 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: At the lower IEER levels, 19 

## particularly for the lower capacity units you know 20 

## you can look at multiple examples. As you go higher 21 

## in capacity and higher in IER levels, then you say, 22 

## okay, well I only have Trane unit here, or I onlyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## have a Carrier unit there. And then what'd you do? 2 

## MR. STARR: Is there -- part of the units 3 

## a lot different at the lower level where there's 4 

## multiple units of how they accomplish that or are 5 

## they pretty much accomplishing the IER the same way 6 

## or it's all over the board, and so then that changes 7 

## your profile? 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: But he's right, there's very 9 

## few manufacturers at the upper levels. They don't 10 

## have a lot to choose from. In fact, I -- this is 11 

## Jill from Trane. Sorry. 12 

## I really feel like you know you're going 13 

## to be surprised when you see the sales data. In 14 

## fact, there might be some stuff we won't be able to 15 

## share because there's not enough people reporting in 16 

## it. 17 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: What we're trying to get 18 

## away from is relying on test data of one unit or 19 

## analysis that we do that -- you know where all right 20 

## did we test it to make sure it reached that level and 21 

## go to actual real units and say, okay, we can agree 22 

## that these units meet these levels, hopefully, andCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## there won't be analysis on that. 2 

## MR. STARR: So, it sounds like the main 3 

## concern manufacturers have are that perhaps going to 4 

## overestimate their energy use of certain models; is 5 

## that kind of what the concern is? And that it may 6 

## not be representative of the whole class of equipment 7 

## and you just particularly choose one? 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 9 

## MR. STARR: Do you think it'll change it 10 

## that much or -- this is a question -- 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: At the upper levels, yes. 12 

## MR. STARR: Okay, so at the higher ER 13 

## levels, but not at the lower ones. 14 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No question. At minimum, we 15 

## have lots of models at minimums right now and they're 16 

## all achieving it all different ways, so you're 17 

## probably pretty diverse right now. But at those 18 

## upper levels, threes and fours, there's very few 19 

## manufacturers, very few models and it's my opinion 20 

## that we'll show very few sales at that. So, now 21 

## you're basing something on a model or a design that 22 

## was designed not for a minimum efficiency, but someCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## glorious level out there to say that I produced the 2 

## model that did do that. It was never produced, 3 

## designed for this kind of analysis to be based on. 4 

## MS. WALTNER: So, Jill, is what you're 5 

## saying that you think at those higher efficiency 6 

## levels the wattage profiles would vary as much as 7 

## they do at lower efficiency levels today -- you know 8 

## that all models were brought up to meet those levels 9 

## you think. 10 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 11 

## MS. WALTNER: For the range and how you 12 

## get there will cause those -- . 13 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Because exactly like 14 

## Rusty said they will all be achieved different ways. 15 

## MS. WALTNER: Yes. 16 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And if you do it by 17 

## compression, it's going to be a completely different 18 

## wattage profile than if you do it by air flow. 19 

## MR. STARR: I have a question. Wouldn't 20 

## you think whoever's making a model they're probably 21 

## doing it one of the better ways currently? So, 22 

## wouldn't people follow that?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOOTMAN: No, that was my point is I 2 

## think there were reasons you did that at the high 3 

## levels that had nothing to do with making the best 4 

## design. They had everything to do with, oh, I'm the 5 

## greatest company out there and I can produce 6 

## something, and I can do it at this high level. It 7 

## was not to make the absolute cost optimized, best 8 

## designed, best energy profile at all. It was for 9 

## other reasons that those models were made. 10 

## MR. GALLAPUDI: This is Chandra from 11 

## Emerson. 12 

## If you look at the sales data, my guess is 13 

## -- I don't have the numbers on top of my head, but 14 

## the EL2 and below has 95 percent or so of the sales 15 

## currently. I'm just thinking that somehow looking at 16 

## Rusty's table of IER and EER we need to overlay sales 17 

## and see where the sales was and how the 18 

## representative unit falls related to the high sales 19 

## volume. 20 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, let me try to 21 

## understand what you're suggesting that at a given EL 22 

## for a given class we would look at the sales by EERCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and select an EER that you know that is at the peak 2 

## sales level? 3 

## MR. GOLLAPUDI: No, what I mean was, okay, 4 

## your EL level was it based on IER or EER? I think it 5 

## was IER based, right? 6 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: IEER, yes. 7 

## MR. GOLLAPUDI: SO, if you took at the 8 

## current sales profile at that IEER level, where would 9 

## the representative unit land? Is it sold? Is it not 10 

## sold? I mean I think a representative unit should be 11 

## something that is sold a lot. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: But we would then -- you 13 

## know somebody would say, okay, Rusty sells most of 14 

## the units in that -- at that EL, so let's use that as 15 

## the representative unit. I mean I don't know if we 16 

## could do that. I mean I would be happy to know all 17 

## of that. 18 

## MR. GOLLAPUDI: It goes back to how you do 19 

## you define a representative. It goes back to how do 20 

## you define a representative unit. 21 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Dianne Jakobs from 22 

## Rheem.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Part of the analysis is for EL level there 2 

## is technologies associated with that EL level. And I 3 

## think if you just look at products in the marketplace 4 

## today maybe somebody skipped over a EL level and took 5 

## something that was easier to do or you know there 6 

## were different methods to get at your current rating 7 

## and you didn't actually step through first coil or 8 

## first staging, whatever it is. So, we might pick an 9 

## EER level based on the description. 10 

## I don't know. You've kind of defined this 11 

## hierarchy that may not probably not -- is probably 12 

## not true when you look at the the products and 13 

## production. 14 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi, this is Greg from 15 

## LBNL. 16 

## I wanted to point out that in the revised 17 

## engineering analysis it's for the 15-ton unit. There 18 

## are two design paths for EL1 and EL2. One is for a 19 

## constant air volume system. One is for a staged air 20 

## volume system, which I believe the question is does 21 

## that dictate, more or less, the design of that unit 22 

## if it's going to the constant air volume versusCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## staged? And if it does, then we're capturing some of 2 

## this effect already on the baseline notes still 3 

## characterized with one baseline unit. 4 

## So, I guess maybe there would be a 5 

## possibility to at least choose one more type of a 6 

## characterization of the baseline, but again, that's a 7 

## question to deal with. 8 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. I mean you know one 9 

## thing to potentially suggest is that I mean in all 10 

## aspects of these analyses there are many different 11 

## inputs and many different levels that you can chose 12 

## for all of those inputs. And we've made a lot of 13 

## those decisions and with the guidance that we've been 14 

## provided we've tried to steer towards something that 15 

## you know conforms a little bit more towards all the 16 

## feedback we've obtained, but ultimately, we think 17 

## about, okay, if I choose between these two values how 18 

## will that change my result, and that's ultimately the 19 

## bottom line. And so you know we can instead of say 20 

## going to three representative units for each of the 21 

## class level combinations maybe do some sensitivity 22 

## analysis to show, okay, what really affects the endCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## result? 2 

## I mean certainly we're open to feedback on 3 

## what types of sensitivity analyses we should be 4 

## conducting. You know one of the themes that Greg 5 

## alluded to was staging the indoor air volume versus 6 

## high initial EER level as a trade off, and so we've 7 

## made an adjustment in our analysis, but there are 8 

## many other -- you know we don't want to go 100 path 9 

## here. 10 

## We just want to go with the two paths in 11 

## that low EL range, but there may be other things such 12 

## as large condenser versus -- you know large face area 13 

## versus deep condenser. You know more surface area, 14 

## more condenser, less power versus compressed or 15 

## horsepower. And if there are such tradeoffs that we 16 

## should look at on a focused bases, I think that might 17 

## be a way to avoid getting bogged down entirely. And 18 

## so maybe this is an issue we can come back to. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: The other thing that I would 20 

## comment on is that you are going to show these 21 

## profiles later on I think for the representative 22 

## units and the manufacturer will have individualCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## reactions to the numbers if they haven't already 2 

## reacted. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. For the 15-ton 4 

## selections, we -- you know the material we provided 5 

## last week we provided all those wattage profiles. 6 

## And any comments on those certainly we'd consider. 7 

## We haven't provided a whole lot more of that here, 8 

## again, expecting we wouldn't get to that level of 9 

## detail. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: But if anybody's going to 11 

## have those, you get them from I guess HRI and then we 12 

## can get them from Nick, right, or maybe you already 13 

## have them. 14 

## MR. STARR: The presentation last week was 15 

## on email to people that were on the hall, so make 16 

## sure you have your presentation. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Yes. Okay. 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, so do we think we 19 

## can move on from the first row here? The next item 20 

## here, low indoor fan power, in the NOPR phase some of 21 

## the analyses had estimates of the wattage input for 22 

## the indoor fan that was lower than some peopleCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## thought was realistic. 2 

## And again, using the approach mentioned 3 

## above of using the information for real units where 4 

## we can obtain product literature and look at the 5 

## indoor fan horsepower tables to get an estimate of 6 

## what the fan power should be for that unit and then 7 

## using assumptions for the motors, i.e., That they're 8 

## consistent with EPAC requiremtns and also with some 9 

## analytical tools that were developed as part of the 10 

## fathom pump rulemakings to represent what the 11 

## efficiency level of the motor is when it's operated 12 

## at lower than nameplate horsepower. 13 

## We've used the product literature and 14 

## these other inputs in order to develop the indoor fan 15 

## power estimates. And for the 15-ton units, I think 16 

## this was an issue in the NOPR phase more for the 7 . 17 

## For the 15-ton you know for the most part they're a 18 

## little bit higher than what we had in the NOPR phase 19 

## at the highest levels. I think we'll show more 20 

## change in the 7 where I think there are greater 21 

## issues, according to the comments. 22 

## So, from our perspective I think we haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## what we need for this time. So again, it's open for 2 

## discussion as to whether anybody disagrees with this 3 

## thought. 4 

## (No response.) 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, then moving on to 6 

## low condenser fan power, again, this was a similar 7 

## issue. And again, we're addressing it in a very 8 

## similar fashion, using the fan power input based on 9 

## product literature, information that we have about 10 

## the heat exchanger, face area, the air flows on the 11 

## condenser side typical fan and motor efficiencies in 12 

## order to estimate the condenser fan power. And we 13 

## have more information on this later in the 14 

## presentation just a repeat from the presentation that 15 

## was provided last week. 16 

## I don't know if anybody has any more on 17 

## this side, but from our perspective we had enough to 18 

## move forward on the analysis. 19 

## So, moving on to the fourth item on this 20 

## chart, the single circuit versus dual circuit, 21 

## meaning one compressor versus two, stages of capacity 22 

## for the 7 -ton baseline in EL1. Our suggestedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## revision to this is to consider the dual circuit at 2 

## the baseline and this was one of the issues that was 3 

## discussed last week that wasn't quite resolved. So, 4 

## this is something that I don't know if we can resolve 5 

## it right here and now before I move onto the next 6 

## item. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: I think what you heard in 8 

## the call week, and I think you acknowledge it already 9 

## was that there is some portion of units that have the 10 

## single circuit, right, that's what we heard? And the 11 

## question is does this simplification of a model dual 12 

## circuit is that acceptable simplification or does 13 

## that take us off base on that? 14 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yes, especially when you 15 

## consider that this capacity class covers product up 16 

## to 135,000 BTU per hour, so I think the dual circuit 17 

## is probably more representative of the capacity class 18 

## than the single circuit. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for the 20 

## California IOUs. 21 

## I think we need to know the production 22 

## volume or market share in order to answer thisCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## question. 2 

## MR. DELASKI: Well, then the other 3 

## question is do you or do you simply not do some sort 4 

## of -- do them both, right, and then weight them 5 

## appropriately. 6 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Exactly. But to simply 7 

## ignore the single stage I don't think is appropriate 8 

## unless we have good information that indicates that 9 

## is appropriate. 10 

## MR. STARR: So, let's start there. You 11 

## did the catalog selection. I've forgot how many of 12 

## them you did. In that it would indicate whether it's 13 

## single or two-stage compressors, right? You could 14 

## look based upon all availability, so that would be 15 

## one way to know it. And then you wouldn't 16 

## necessarily know the sales data, but you would be a 17 

## little further along. Do you have an idea of what 18 

## that mix is? 19 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. My expectation is 20 

## that if you look at 7 -- you know from what we saw 21 

## the low efficiency units in the 7 -ton range on the 22 

## model basis maybe half and half. But then when youCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## look at 10-ton, which is an important part of the 2 

## small class, you know they're all two compressors. 3 

## MR. STARR: So, another thing you could do 4 

## is by knowing what the -- AHRs can provide the sales 5 

## data by the whole product class so you don't know 6 

## which models sold -- in other words, you could like 7 

## the IER and the single-stage and two-stage, and then 8 

## if you knew how much models sold that model class 9 

## then you could come up with a number. Kind of like 10 

## what Gary was saying, a sales weighted base volume, a 11 

## single-stage compressors. But it sounds like they're 12 

## not collecting that data; is that right? 13 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we're doing it by 14 

## product classes, so it's the entire product class, 15 

## right, Nick? 16 

## MR. MILSLAK: Yes. So, it's just by 17 

## product class you know whether it's constant air 18 

## volume or VAV. 19 

## MR. STARR: But obviously you could look 20 

## at the data before you anomolized it and know that 21 

## mix, couldn't you? 22 

## MR. MILSLAK: As far as whether it'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## single? 2 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not dividing it until 3 

## then. 4 

## MR. MILSLAK: I mean it may not be enough 5 

## that we could report it anyways, depending on what 6 

## the volume is. 7 

## MR. STARR: Well, within the absence of 8 

## data, normally, what I think DOE would do is just do 9 

## it based upon the number of models. That's how you 10 

## do your weighing typically. I mean I don't know what 11 

## else you would do if you didn't have information. 12 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again. 13 

## The point being I don't think it's 14 

## reasonable to just make this decision without the 15 

## information to back up that course of action. 16 

## MR. WHITWELL: So, based on what Navigant 17 

## -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 18 

## Based upon what Navigant showed last week, 19 

## for the 7 -ton in the baseline IEER bucket it shows 20 

## about 50/50 split between single circuit and dual 21 

## circuit. Everything above the baseline IER bucket is 22 

## two circuits. At the 10-ton, everything isCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## two-circuit. So, as you go from 7 to you know up 2 

## through 10-ton it's migrating from something around a 3 

## 50/50 split to 100 percent two circuit. 4 

## So, if you're going to have a single model 5 

## for that capacity class, you could make an argument 6 

## that the two-circuit would be more representative of 7 

## the capacity class. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: So, let me ask the question 9 

## then, so why do we have to have the single model? 10 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: We could do multiple 11 

## models. I mean in going back to how will this affect 12 

## the analysis, you know thinking on a qualitative 13 

## bases -- we haven't done the math yet -- if you put a 14 

## single compressor unit at the baseline, then going to 15 

## higher levels there will be more of an incremental 16 

## cost, but there will also be more savings. And how 17 

## that will balance out in terms of cost effectiveness, 18 

## well, we haven't done the analysis yet because we 19 

## haven't done it both ways. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: But it seems to me that if 21 

## we -- again, if we have half the units being sold 22 

## with a single circuit to not characterize them justCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## strikes me as being a problem to sort of leave them 2 

## out. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Half the models at the 4 

## lower -- 5 

## MR. DELASKI: 7 tons I get that that's 6 

## not the whole class. I understand that problem. 7 

## MR. FERNSTROM: And this is Gary. 8 

## You can speculate that they're going to be 9 

## more of the smaller models sold than the larger ones 10 

## because generally as you get smaller you have larger 11 

## volume relative to smaller volume and larger 12 

## equipment. 13 

## MR. STARR: The other thing to think about 14 

## here is that you know on the lower EL levels that's 15 

## the cheaper model of equipment and people are already 16 

## buying that equipment. They'll probably go with the 17 

## least -- in other words, they'll get the IER level 18 

## that's lowest, which means most likely the 19 

## representative class is probably the single stage 20 

## because you're price sensitive, so you're going to 21 

## buy the cheapest thing you can that you can put on 22 

## the roof.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## And maybe at the higher IER levels there 2 

## might start to be more selection that the 3 

## representative class would be in the middle of then 4 

## of IER levels where as lower levels of efficiency it 5 

## seems like people are going to buy the cheapest they 6 

## can, which means that it really should be the single 7 

## stage of compression, but what do you think about 8 

## that? Do you think that in your -- since you've 9 

## looked at these 700 models or whatever, what is your 10 

## take on that? Do you have one? 11 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Whether we should select 12 

## a single compressor as a baseline versus two? If I 13 

## had to chose the one or the other? 14 

## RM. STARR: Yes, kind of based on what I 15 

## was just saying, do you sort of buy into that or not 16 

## really? You're not sure. 17 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I mean I would want 18 

## to see the shipment data. You know another thing 19 

## that plays into this is when we consider economizing 20 

## and trying to model an integrated economizer with a 21 

## single compressor that just doesn't work. And so, 22 

## one might ask, okay, are these single compressorCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## units mostly southern units? Maybe they are. It's 2 

## more where you use economizers probably. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Speaking for my company, I 4 

## would say that they're very diverse actually. I 5 

## don't think that there's a regionalization to them, 6 

## and I'm just speaking for my company. Jill Hootman, 7 

## Trane. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: And Jill or anyone else, who 9 

## may want to comment on Louis' point, or argument or 10 

## hypothesis was that this is a low cost entry. 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And that's really the 12 

## driver. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: So, this is a low cost 14 

## entry, so that will affect the buyer who's buying on 15 

## cost only. It could be anywhere in the country 16 

## really. 17 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. And that 18 

## really is the driver. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: Right, so they're dispersed, 20 

## and they're a significant market share. 21 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: That 7 tons, but not atCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## 10. So, it strikes me that they need to be modeled 2 

## and you can't just throw this out as a baseline. I 3 

## mean you could do unless the sensitivity shows it 4 

## doesn't matter. So, I don't know -- I can't sit here 5 

## today and say they don't matter based on what I know. 6 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: As I said before, I 7 

## expect the savings would be greater going from a 8 

## single compressor baseline, but the cost would be 9 

## greater, the cost effectiveness you know DBD. 10 

## MR. STARR: So, actually, I mean I guess I 11 

## would certainly be okay with saying a single 12 

## compressor would be the baseline because that's where 13 

## they're manufactured. I kind of feel like -- it 14 

## sounds like they're agreeing with that. I'm not sure 15 

## if they are or not, but if they are then it makes it 16 

## easier to just assume the baseline is a single stage 17 

## compressor. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: And my supposition would be 19 

## that the cost effectiveness is probably pretty 20 

## advantageous, because that's what they do, right? 21 

## That's the first thing a -- maybe it's not the first 22 

## thing, but it's -- I'm saying if there's single-stageCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## compressors at 7 , but at 10 you know it seems like 2 

## that's one of the first things people are doing with 3 

## those two stages. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That has a lot to do with 5 

## the fact that the codes are now -- you know you just 6 

## have another model at that is certain to be 7 

## diminishing return, so you know five years ago or 8 

## seven years ago we did have 10 tons that were single 9 

## compressor. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: The fact that the market is 11 

## trending in that direction it suggest to me cost 12 

## effectiveness. 13 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No, I think we were more 14 

## forced there by codes. We were forced there by the 15 

## circuit codes, the two-speed fan codes. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay, well, I guess we don't 17 

## know until we do the analysis. 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I was going to 19 

## suggest perhaps a bit of comfort with a two-stage. 20 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No question, but you know 21 

## when you're a first-class sensitive comfort doesn't 22 

## always come into play.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 2 

## It's interesting to me to observe this 3 

## discussion between whether it was cost effective or 4 

## if we were forced there by code because in my mind 5 

## presumably the code is cost effective, so those two 6 

## ways of thinking about it ought to be synonymous. 7 

## MR. AMRANE: Karim with HOI. 8 

## I guess my question to the manufacturers 9 

## is can we collect this information or not, given the 10 

## timeframe given to us to collect this information, or 11 

## would it be too difficult to collect it? 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just speaking for my 13 

## company. That is not that hard to get. The IER was 14 

## the hardest stuff to get, but that's not that hard. 15 

## MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 16 

## A long time ago, Jim Wolf of Trane said 17 

## that something about the baseline is the least 18 

## efficient thing I can sell and stay out of jail and 19 

## that was for a single-stage, 7 ton and perhaps a 20 

## two-stage by the time you get to 10 ton. 21 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, I guess moving 22 

## forward on this and thinking about the options mightCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## be, one might be analyze both, but I think that's 2 

## what I'm hearing in any case, but then how do weight 3 

## them, whether that be based on shipment data or a 4 

## number of models. 5 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 6 

## And it seems to me that once you've done 7 

## that analysis that's arithmetic portioning, based on 8 

## the quality of information you get from the 9 

## manufacturers and so they can provide that. If we 10 

## can get shipment weighing cool. If we can't, we have 11 

## a little bit of sensitivity question for model 12 

## numbers. But I think the important thing is to make 13 

## the decision that we should be looking at a 14 

## single-stage in the 7 ton and a two stage in the 10 15 

## ton. 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I think in any case, at 17 

## least on Navigant's part that's clear enough marching 18 

## orders to move forward with additional. 19 

## MR. STARR: So, the only thing I would say 20 

## is that if -- I could see a driver would need to 21 

## collect -- but if they don't collect a mixture of it, 22 

## it seems like it wouldn't be worth you're justCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## spending time -- it's not necessary to spend time on 2 

## it. So, before I did that I would make sure if they 3 

## were to collect data or not and figure out what that 4 

## mix is; otherwise, it seems like we'll just assume 5 

## that a single-stage compressor. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: But I think you heard at 7 

## least one manufacturer say it wasn't that hard. 8 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: However, by the time we 9 

## get the data, we have to have the answer already. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: John from DOE. 11 

## I just want to make it clear because maybe 12 

## it wasn't clear in my mind even that the NOPR 13 

## analysis had the single-stage unit as the baseline. 14 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: We're doing a little 15 

## different or more work now than we did then. 16 

## Okay, I don't know who's taking notes, but 17 

## you know from my perspective this means we'll be 18 

## working through the engineering for both one and two 19 

## compressor at baseline 7 and then should we 20 

## consider whether we would carry that through to EL1 21 

## or I don't know those that have looked at the data 22 

## for the last week whether that's compelling enough atCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## EL1. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And is it possible to go 3 

## in with the revision of a 50/50 split until we get 4 

## data that says something different? Is that okay 5 

## with people? I'm just throwing it out there. 6 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I'm okay with that. 7 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. I mean changing the 8 

## number downstream is easier than coming up with the 9 

## two different numbers. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 11 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: EL1, 7 -ton units are 12 

## available with a single compressor as well, but you 13 

## know there the split is leaning a little bit more 14 

## towards the two compressor. 15 

## MR. SACHS: This is a factual question, 16 

## and the answer may differ with a manufacturers. When 17 

## I go to a two-stage in these smaller units, is that 18 

## typically done with two compressors or a 19 

## two-stage/modulating compressor, likely the 7 ton 20 

## to go with a two and a half and a five, so I get 21 

## three stages, or is likely to be done as a two-stage 22 

## machine that gives me -- a single compressor thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## gives me two values? 2 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Jill from Trane. 3 

## If we're talking about the low-cost, 4 

## single compressor it doesn't have any modulation 5 

## because that is expensive. 6 

## MR. SACHS: Jill, I'm sorry. Thank you 7 

## for trying to bail me out, but once I made the 8 

## decision to go two stage, is that more likely to be 9 

## with using two constant speed compressors or a single 10 

## modulating compressor? 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that we could 12 

## characterize it because everyone has different design 13 

## choices for different reasons. 14 

## MR. SACHS: Thank you. 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess regarding 16 

## the EL1 I don't know if there's any input. I think 17 

## if we can find and had the time do to it both ways at 18 

## EL1 we'll consider that. 19 

## Okay, so maybe moving on to the next 20 

## issue, the last one on this page here, that is staged 21 

## air flow for lower efficiency levels. So, in the 22 

## NOPR analysis the concept of reducing the indoor airCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## flow part load was not introduced until EL2 or 3. It 2 

## might've been EL3 and so as a revision here what 3 

## we're considering is the dual path of the lower ELs, 4 

## in particular, for EL1 and EL2 introducing staged 5 

## indoor air flow and considering that cost efficiency 6 

## path and what it means to the energy use analysis in 7 

## buildings, and then also considering constant air 8 

## blowing path. 9 

## And there are several considerations here 10 

## as well. Some have to do with the existing buildings 11 

## for which you are replacing the unit, which might 12 

## have been constant air volume where the existing 13 

## ductwork would have been constant air volume 14 

## ductwork. And so this is where we get into 15 

## potentially considering costs for upgraded air 16 

## distributions in lower stage air flow less than 60 17 

## percent of full air flow where the existing diffusers 18 

## wouldn't operate properly. You wouldn't get good air 19 

## mix and it would be very cold underneath the 20 

## diffuser, but not cool enough far away. 21 

## So, this is where we said from our 22 

## perspective we received enough feedback from theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## group that we think we could go forward with the 2 

## analysis, but we can revisit this in the discussion 3 

## here today. 4 

## MS. WALTNER: What sort of data do you 5 

## have on existing distribution systems, like the 6 

## percentage that are considered. 7 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: In our last phone call, I 8 

## think that we looked at the CBAKS 2003 and around the 9 

## 70 percent/30 percent split, or a 70 percent constant 10 

## air volume and 30 percent are variable. 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And Greg, that's at what, up 12 

## to the 135,000 and that's it? 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: There's no designation on 14 

## capacity. 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No designation. 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 17 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So, without anything else 19 

## we would use those fractions. 20 

## MS. HOOTMAN: There's no designation by 21 

## like square footage or anything like that? 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: There is that, yeah, aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## big building. 2 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So, the bigger the building 3 

## would it designate then if it was a 70/30 split or 4 

## not? 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: We could desire down to 6 

## that level, so I don't know those numbers by the size 7 

## of the building, but we can certainly do it that way. 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So, I mean if we were to 9 

## agree that -- and I don't know if we are. I'm just 10 

## saying if we were to say that everything for the 11 

## product class up through 135,000 is square footage of 12 

## -- and I'm just filling in the blank -- you know 13 

## whatever, 20,000 square foot. And then we said the 14 

## next one is 20,000 square foot to whatever you know 15 

## you could characterize it by that? 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 17 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 18 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 19 

## The outcome of that would probably that 20 

## we'd find smaller capacity equipment is much more 21 

## likely to have constant air volume than larger 22 

## buildings and larger capacity.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, I think that's what 2 

## the group -- the formal working group has sort of 3 

## concluded because I think it's on the table right now 4 

## what to do about 30-ton equipment, right? And there 5 

## was one point made that perhaps that one should be 6 

## considered to be variable air volume or staged air 7 

## volume at the very minimum. So, anyway that 8 

## discussion is for a later time. 9 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, probably in new 10 

## construction that's true, but for existing buildings 11 

## it may not be so much. 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So true. And at 30 tons I 13 

## would ^^^^ but during this 35 years I was product 14 

## manager for many of those years and I will tell you 15 

## that a good portion of them are variable air volume. 16 

## They have been since the 1980s, so they're there. 17 

## They're all variable air volume. They used different 18 

## control methods, but they're variable air volume. 19 

## MS. WALTNER: Jill, am I correct in 20 

## remembering that that's one of the things you were 21 

## collecting data onto what percentage? 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. WALTNER: Okay. 2 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: The answer to that would 3 

## be borne out in that data, at least on current 4 

## shipments. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Can't a big building just 6 

## use a lot of smaller units? Is that common practice 7 

## from my not a lot of knowledge, but just looking on a 8 

## rooftop it seems to me that you can employ lots of 9 

## small, constant volume units to a larger building. 10 

## The only reason I bring it up is because I want to 11 

## caution that mapping that you're describing could be 12 

## that. 13 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I agree, John, that would 14 

## have some works to it. And you're right, at larger 15 

## buildings, depending on its use, could be all 16 

## constant volume or it could be BAB. If you 17 

## classified it as an office, it's BAB. If it's a large 18 

## box retailer at that same large then they're constant 19 

## volume, and it's the nature of what's happening in 20 

## the building. I agree. It has works. I didn't know 21 

## what his data had. That's what I just asking him. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'd feel more comfortableCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## with the building type defining the volume. 2 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 3 

## And a follow-up question for Jill. My 4 

## memory is that the CBAKS data also breaks down by 5 

## number of floors. And by the time you get into the 6 

## 30 ton are you penetrating more than two floors or so 7 

## for your BAB systems. 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: It still could be two floors 9 

## and still could be a single floor. I mean I could 10 

## think about around Nashville where I'm from you know 11 

## there's a lot of single-story, big square footers 12 

## because land's cheap. 13 

## MR. SACHS: I understand that. I'm really 14 

## asking the converse. Am I seeing 40-ton units on 15 

## six-story buildings carrying the air all the way down 16 

## from the roof? That's important to me. Thank you. 17 

## MR. STARR: Well, I would say something 18 

## about that. Normally, the cheapest thing to do is 19 

## what you would do, which is you get the biggest 20 

## amount of equipment to cover the most you can in the 21 

## building. So, you have the option of two 60 tons for 22 

## an office building -- three-story office building youCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## would try to go with one large unit and drop one -- 2 

## the more drops you have in the building the more 3 

## floor space you take up and so you generally try to 4 

## keep everything in one spot and run as much -- the 5 

## biggest equipment you can with the centralized 6 

## ductworks. 7 

## MS. HOOTMAN: If it's all single owner. 8 

## MR. STARR: Yes. 9 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, building ownership is 10 

## not always single ownership, metering and all that 11 

## has to do with it. 12 

## MR. STARR: So, I had another question 13 

## about the 60 percent if we were moving onto that, 14 

## that 60 percent of full load I have a question in 15 

## general about. Are you saying when you have a system 16 

## that can deliver below 60 percent air flow then you 17 

## are considering the cost of upgrading the system? Is 18 

## that essentially what you're doing in that for your 19 

## analysis? 20 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, there would be cost 21 

## of upgrading the particular diffusers if it's a small 22 

## capacity.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STARR: So, right now the way the 2 

## two-stage equipment works is that it's at -- well, I 3 

## should say I think this is how it works is that 100 4 

## percent where it turns down to 66 percent of air 5 

## flow. So, in that case on the two-stage equipment 6 

## you would not be considering the upgrading of your 7 

## distribution system; is that right? 8 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I was a little bit 9 

## surprised when I heard the comment last week that at 10 

## two-thirds you're fine with any existing traditional 11 

## CAV diffusers, but that's potentially something up 12 

## for discussion. 13 

## MR. STARR: I actually had that. Where 14 

## that comes from is the 9.1. It requires that you 15 

## have for staged equipment you have two stages. My 16 

## understanding was that it's more for ventilation. 17 

## So, when you're heating or cooling, you're basically 18 

## a hundred percent. And then when you're ventilating, 19 

## you switch to your 66 percent load. But what I don't 20 

## know is do they have staging, such that if you switch 21 

## down to your 66 percent because then that would seem 22 

## like more of a problem.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## In other words, if you were ventilating a 2 

## space maybe the air distribution isn't so critical, 3 

## but if you're running a light load and running your 4 

## AC all day at 66 percent on a moderate day then 5 

## that's where kind of what Detlef was saying would be 6 

## surprising. And so I don't know enough about the 7 

## equipment to know if you're going to run at a lower 8 

## stage at a lower CFM or would you run your cooling 9 

## always at the higher CFM no matter what. 10 

## MR. WHITWELL: We run the lower stage at 11 

## the lower air flow. 12 

## MR. STARR: Okay. Is the 66/100 percent 13 

## the right split on that, or does it depend upon the 14 

## characteristics? 15 

## MR. WHITWELL: Well, the 66 percent comes 16 

## from ASRAC 90.1 where it says you must have two 17 

## stages of air flow and the lower stage must be at 66 18 

## percent. 19 

## MR. STARR: Is that essentially just 20 

## really constant air volume application and so now 21 

## they've put some more requirements in there, say fan 22 

## energy? So, it's really just a constant air volumeCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## distribution system essentially; is that what it's 2 

## being hooked up to? I mean you're not hooking up the 3 

## VAV boxes, right? 4 

## MR. WHITWELL: That's correct. 5 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's why it's called 6 

## single-zone VAV. It's varying the air volume, but 7 

## still a zone is all ductwork and all that is 8 

## considered single zone. 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, I think one of things 10 

## we potentially have here for input is guidelines that 11 

## the LBNL team can use if the recommendation is that 12 

## they do this to apportion the different capacities to 13 

## the different building sizes and the CVAC survey in 14 

## order to allow proper estimate of accommodating these 15 

## buildings at different capacity levels are VAV or 16 

## CAV. 17 

## MR. STARR: Are you talking about the 18 

## three levels? What percentage of constant volume of 19 

## VAV or are you trying to get the split on that? 20 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, Greg mentioned that 21 

## CVAC has the percentages of the floor space that is 22 

## CAV versus VAV. And so, Jill had the question of,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## okay, well that would vary by the size of the 2 

## building or it would vary by the type of the 3 

## building. 4 

## And so, there's the question of instead of 5 

## straight up using a commercial building percent of 6 

## CVA to do a little bit more of the disaggregated 7 

## query into CVAC you know to do a 8 

## two-dimensional/three-dimensional assessment to 9 

## figure out what percentages really are CVA. 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: You know Katie just 11 

## looked at the CVAC data and the 2003 CVAC data and at 12 

## least by building count smaller buildings have a much 13 

## lower percentage of VAV than larger buildings, and it 14 

## sort of graduates up. It's more like a bit of a 15 

## hockey stick. 16 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, we would agree by 17 

## equipment shipments. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So, with that then, I 19 

## mean -- 20 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's what I'm saying. 21 

## With that then do we say that the small class is 22 

## constant volume, the 15 ton we probably have aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## discussion about, and the 30 is probably all VAV. 2 

## You know I don't know. I mean that's why I'm saying 3 

## I don't know that we can flatly say 70/30 across all 4 

## of it. 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Like say for 15 6 

## ton we have two design paths, right, for 15 ton at 7 

## EL1 and EL2, and the 7 ton will be the same thing. 8 

## So, I mean we could allocate a market share of zero 9 

## percent for 7 ton or 10 percent or some small 10 

## fraction, whatever. Again, what this working group 11 

## decided. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. And AHRI is 13 

## collecting data on this, so that'll help us to decide 14 

## what percentage we should allocate of the different 15 

## capacity classes because even at 7 in that capacity 16 

## it won't be zero. It's not a zero. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 18 

## So, what I'm hearing is we're going to 19 

## vary these percentages once we get the data from 20 

## AHRI; is that what the group is -- okay. That sounds 21 

## good to me too. 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, it almost sounds toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## me like LBNL would do a first cut and then it might 2 

## be adjusted based upon their result. 3 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Because we're 4 

## planning to do these different design paths, right, 5 

## based upon the type of air volume system it was. And 6 

## we're going use 30/70, right, but now we'll use some 7 

## refinements to that. And we won't zero out the VAV 7 8 

## tons, but we could, based upon what we're seeing 9 

## here and again just report back when show our 10 

## results. 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, I'm going to jump in 12 

## and declare it's lunchtime. We'll come back in one 13 

## hour and 19 minutes. 14 

## (Whereupon, a lunch break was taken at 15 

## 12:26 p.m.) 16 

## MR. BANTLE: Okay, good afternoon 17 

## everyone. We will bring it back together. I hope 18 

## everyone had a good lunch. 19 

## Just a brief comment from the Legal 20 

## Department, and then we'll head back to Navigant. 21 

## MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. 22 

## So, especially for Andrew, I took yourCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## questions back and started the process to get some 2 

## answer percolating. I'm not going to have those 3 

## answers today, but we'll try to get them to the group 4 

## as soon as possible. I've urged by the next meeting, 5 

## but it's kind of a little bit out of my hands; but as 6 

## soon as we can get it to you we will get it to you. 7 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: All right, so I think we 8 

## finished with slide here, so I'm moving on to the 9 

## next set of issues. 10 

## (Slide.) 11 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, the one at the top 12 

## here pointing out that the baseline unit -- some of 13 

## the baseline units selected for the analysis at had 14 

## EER lower than the current standards. In the 15 

## revision, essentially, we're basing the analysis on 16 

## existing models which meet the standards; otherwise, 17 

## they wouldn't be for sale. 18 

## I don't know if we want to go back to that 19 

## question of the EER. I mean I think there are many 20 

## issues associated with EER, but if there's no comment 21 

## I'll move on. 22 

## (No response.)Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPHALEN: One thing brought up was 2 

## the potential need for conversion curves. If the 3 

## standard mandates efficiency levels that push package 4 

## sizes larger than the existing package size for 5 

## replacement units and so the team is considering 6 

## incorporating this into the analysis. 7 

## There was some discussion last week about 8 

## potentially some of the manufacturers, maybe through 9 

## surveys or measurements, providing some input on 10 

## potential pressure drops and cost parameters 11 

## associated with conversion codes, and so that's why 12 

## we have the additional input required here. I don't 13 

## know if anybody has any comments or information at 14 

## this point on that. 15 

## MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 16 

## I think one of the things from -- I guess 17 

## in my mind the phone call the concern I have is on 18 

## the conversion. So, it's basically additional 19 

## pressure drop due to the conversion curve. And the 20 

## thought is the bigger the unit the case sizing gets 21 

## larger and now all of a sudden you have to have in 22 

## order to fit on the same curve you need a curveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## adapter to fit on there, which is possible for the 2 

## higher -- basically higher EL3 and 4s is ones that 3 

## it's going to apply to. Is that, more or less, the 4 

## issue that we're talking about? 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, that's the issue. 6 

## MR. STARR: Okay. So, the thing I had 7 

## about that in addition was really there -- you know I 8 

## would probably be okay with that. It's just the 9 

## magnitude of the pressure drop relative to the amount 10 

## of pressure drop that's being used in the air 11 

## handler. And you know I have a proposal is that you 12 

## know the typical -- I looked through the PNL models, 13 

## the 90.1 models, and I also looked through the 14 

## commercial DOE prototypes. And basically, they used 15 

## in small office, which is generally the small air 16 

## handlers that would probably be appropriate for our 17 

## size is they're using about 2 static inches of 18 

## pressure for the fan. And a conversion curve -- 19 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Total? 20 

## MS. STARR: Yes, total. It's a lot as 21 

## opposed to the HR test procedures .3 something. And 22 

## so, what I would think might be a good idea was thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## it makes sense to add a pressure drop of something, 2 

## but I think percentage-wise -- in other words, let's 3 

## say there's 2 inches of pressure and you figure the 4 

## conversion curve is .2. So, that's basically an 5 

## additional 10 percent pressure drop that you have to 6 

## overcome for having a conversion curve. 7 

## So, what I was thinking is like let's take 8 

## whatever the -- the thing that you're writing, the 9 

## equipment at .3 pressures and just add 10 percent 10 

## more on for a curve adapter and run that using the 11 

## number of your static pressure for those higher EL 12 

## levels. Do you get more or less what I'm talking 13 

## about or the concept? 14 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I understand what you're 15 

## talking about. 16 

## MR. STARR: But do you see a problem with 17 

## that? I mean -- well, first of all, I guess I should 18 

## say do you see an issue if we attribute like .5 19 

## inches for the higher EL levels as opposed to .3 20 

## inches it's just that it's going to really show a lot 21 

## of fan energy in the higher static or in the higher 22 

## efficiency levels, and that doesn't seem quite fair.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## That's what I'm trying to get at with this 2 

## suggestion. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, maybe the 4 

## conversion curve would loss more for a larger 5 

## capacity. Until somebody has some data, we don't 6 

## know. 7 

## MS. WALTNER: And I think the underlying 8 

## issue is that we're not using realistic static 9 

## pressures for the system in the rest of the analysis, 10 

## so then when you look at the static pressure we're 11 

## using there compared to the side pressure added by 12 

## the conversion curve the relationship is off because 13 

## we're not using the right or real-world static in the 14 

## system. So, that's going to sort of bias the results 15 

## against higher efficiency levels. 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: No, I understand that. 17 

## But in order to get the right impact of the 18 

## additional pressure drop, you really want the actual 19 

## pressure drop, not a percentage of the other external 20 

## static pressure. And I see these two issues as -- 21 

## you know they're related, but they're separate 22 

## decisions to make on these two issues.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 2 

## I think it should be noted that the 3 

## external static pressures that are used in the 4 

## testing are set up for a certain building parameters 5 

## and that's so that there could be equitable, 6 

## comparable testing from one system to another. And 7 

## so there's going to be whole variances of what a 8 

## system could see once installed, but they are 9 

## realistic for the testing parameters that have been 10 

## set up. 11 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary for the 12 

## California IOUs. 13 

## I understand the value of having an even 14 

## playing field such that the test allows different 15 

## units to be compared to each other, but it's really 16 

## important for us, the California Utilities, to try 17 

## and have these tests results be as realistic and 18 

## representative of field conditions as possible. And 19 

## oftentimes, tests are simplified in such a way to 20 

## allow comparison between equipment all right, but not 21 

## necessarily be very representative of field 22 

## performance.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## So, it would be great if we could move in 2 

## the direction of utilizing numbers in our analysis 3 

## that are as representative of field conditions as 4 

## possible. 5 

## MR. STARR: So, you know I was just 6 

## thinking -- so I actually asked some engineers 7 

## because the conversion curves are kind of unusual to 8 

## apply because it's usually only a retrofit that 9 

## you're going to do this on. And the numbers they 10 

## gave was a 1/10 of an inch to 2/10 of an inch. 11 

## Actually, they threw in some other things like 12 

## systems affect, which you're not talking about, but 13 

## if you think about whether it's a 1/10 or 1/10 of an 14 

## inch when you only apply it to a fan static pressure 15 

## point or two -- if you do it on a percentage basis, 16 

## it doesn't really matter whether it's a 1/10 or 2/10 17 

## the additional amount is going to have little affect 18 

## on it. 19 

## So, I mean I personally would be okay 20 

## whether it's -- you know you use 1.5 or .2 it's 21 

## probably okay. It's more the treatment of that next 22 

## step. So, to my mind the pressure drop of theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## conversion curve is not so much the issue, but it's 2 

## how you apply it to the next step that you're going 3 

## to do that I really have an issue with. 4 

## I mean, in other words, what if it's .17 5 

## -- I don't think it's going to make a difference if 6 

## it's .2, .17 or .15. if you're just adding on that a 7 

## small percentage on the .3 static of that as opposed 8 

## to .2 onto that. That's where the big difference is. 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, when you're referring 10 

## to the next step, you mean you know the general ESP? 11 

## MR. STARR: Exactly. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: And that's one of the 13 

## parking lot issue that we have you know like a 14 

## separate topic for discussion. 15 

## MR. STARR: Okay. 16 

## MS. WALTNER: You know another question on 17 

## conversion curves maybe going back to the cost side 18 

## of things. So, my understanding from the 19 

## conversation last week was that some units use them. 20 

## Some units don't. You know what's the potential for 21 

## units to be redesigned so they don't need conversion 22 

## curves because that might be more cost competitive?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Have we thought about that? And do manufacturers 2 

## have thoughts on how necessary conversion curves are 3 

## at higher levels and whether that will remain the 4 

## case you know if we move the standard to those higher 5 

## levels? 6 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't doubt that the 7 

## manufacturers in this room have engineering at their 8 

## disposal that's very creative and might be able to 9 

## you know come up with higher efficiency levels at 10 

## some point that fit the existing curves, but at this 11 

## point we're kind of heading down the path of basing 12 

## the analysis on existing units where we can point to 13 

## the sizes. And so that would be the basis of at what 14 

## point would a replacement unit have to either have a 15 

## larger curve built into the roof, which is probably 16 

## less cost effective, or put a conversion curve on 17 

## there in order to install it. 18 

## MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. 19 

## So, what's your intent for how to handle 20 

## this in the current analysis then? So, how are you 21 

## going to determine whether your conversion curve is 22 

## needed or not?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we were thinking 2 

## that EL3 would be an appropriate place to say that, 3 

## okay, at that level or higher we'd need a conversion 4 

## curve. 5 

## MR. DOPPEL: And did you find that the 6 

## units that you looked at today all required a 7 

## conversion curve at EL3, or have you looked? 8 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: We looked at the size 9 

## progression for the key capacities we were looking at 10 

## for different manufacturers. And some bump up in 11 

## size -- 12 

## MR. DOPPEL: I'm sorry. You're talking 13 

## pretty quietly. 14 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Some bump up in size at 15 

## lower levels in EL3, some at EL3. I mean I don't 16 

## have all the data in my head. 17 

## MS. WALTNER: And I don't know that that's 18 

## necessarily fair to characterize it on what it is 19 

## today. Those designs at EL3 and EL4 today are not 20 

## designed to be the minimum efficiency. We will look 21 

## at it differently. 22 

## MR. DOPPEL: Right.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. WALTNER: They are high premium. You 2 

## know not optimized necessarily in cabinets like we 3 

## would look like in the future. 4 

## MR. DOPPEL: Right. 5 

## MS. WALTNER: So, I don't know that that's 6 

## a fair characterization to say that you know here's 7 

## the break today and that break will happen tomorrow. 8 

## But all of us no matter what we do, no matter how 9 

## fantastic engineering we have, we will have break 10 

## points. It will require conversion curves, and the 11 

## market is over 60 percent replacement. 12 

## MR. STARR: So, one last thing, so on that 13 

## you're assuming on EL3 it's only on the percentage of 14 

## the market that needs -- on new construction you 15 

## don't need conversion curve, right, to put it on? 16 

## So, when you look at the EL3, it's only 17 

## the percentage of EL3 that's going into existing. 18 

## So, where that's 60 percent or 80 percent or whatever 19 

## that is, the number, so it doesn't get applied across 20 

## the whole category, is that right, or are you 21 

## splitting it up into two segments. One that EL3 it's 22 

## conversion curve and EL3 it doesn't get a conversionCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## curve in your analysis? 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: The intent would be when 3 

## considering an EL3 as a standard level. If the 4 

## consensus is that's the right level to require a 5 

## conversion curve, then you would look at the 6 

## replacements that aren't already at that level and 7 

## say those would require a conversion curve. 8 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: The other thing I wanted 9 

## to add regarding the static pressure -- I mean so 10 

## this is a section that I'll be addressing, but 11 

## jumping ahead we're planning on having Detlef and the 12 

## Navigant engineering team provide us with fan powers 13 

## at higher static pressures for the same rated powers. 14 

## And the input we would need from the working group is 15 

## at what static pressure should we use to do that. 16 

## MR. STARR: That's easy. Just use the 17 

## 90.1 models and that'll get you the 2.5 static inches 18 

## that I was talking about. I looked a couple 19 

## different types of warehouses and small office and 20 

## came up with those numbers. And it has a static 21 

## pressure as to the inputs into the model. 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, we were just lookingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## at the blast data, and apparently they model .75 and 2 

## 1.25 external static pressures in that analysis so I 3 

## don't know what the basis of that is. 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: What were those values 5 

## again? 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: .75 and 1.25. 7 

## MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. 8 

## I really need to ask for an explanation to 9 

## overcome of my naivety. When I think about the 10 

## general issue of the conversion curves or any curve, 11 

## I see at least three parameters. One of them is the 12 

## cross-sectional area of the supply and return ducts. 13 

## The second is the positioning of the supply and 14 

## return ducts. And the third is the total area batch 15 

## of the curve. Now, which of these are the critical 16 

## parameters as we move up in EL? 17 

## I understand the heat exchangers are 18 

## getting bigger. Does this mean that my duct sections 19 

## are also getting bigger? Does this mean I'm moving 20 

## things around within the cabinet to re-optimize that 21 

## spacing, and therefore I've got to have an adjustment 22 

## to move the supply and return ducts? What exactly isCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the engineering issue that the conversion curve is 2 

## addressing? 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, it's addressing -- 4 

## you know supporting the weight of the unit. And as 5 

## you point out, having the openings for the return and 6 

## supply ducts in the right in places. You know in 7 

## some cases you could envision the unit hanging over 8 

## the existing curve. 9 

## I mean we're open to input on -- you know 10 

## is EL3 not the right level at which to consider this? 11 

## Should there be a more sophisticated assessment for 12 

## each given situation, given the existing models that 13 

## we're talking about? I mean we're open to discussion 14 

## on this. 15 

## MR. SACHS: Please let me try once more. 16 

## And maybe I should be addressing this to Bob and Jill 17 

## and the other OEMs, that as I move up -- you too 18 

## Rusty. In EL4, am I likely to be moving my condenser 19 

## and evaporator -- well, my supply and return ducts 20 

## further away from each other so I now have to have 21 

## some curve in my adapters? And that means I've got 22 

## to have some vertical spaces.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 

## MR. SACHS: That's where I'm trying to get 3 

## a figure on. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: The openings might get 5 

## bigger. They might change in space. 6 

## MR. WHITWELL: That's what the conversion 7 

## curves would refer to what numbers. 8 

## MR. SACHS: So, is this something that is 9 

## changing what I'll call footprint as well as size? 10 

## Footprint being the relative position of the two 11 

## ducts and their size, is that something that starts 12 

## happening at EL1? Does that start happening at 3? 13 

## Does that vary enormously, depending on capacity and 14 

## manufacturer choices or where are we on that? 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: It definitely happens at 16 

## three. It's my opinion it definitely happens at 17 

## three. Jill Hootman from Trane. Sorry. 18 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yes, I agree. Bob Whitwell 19 

## from Carrier. 20 

## MR. SACHS: Thank you. This is Harvey. 21 

## And that helps me a great deal. Would I be thinking 22 

## in terms of the vertical riser to accommodate thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## offset that looks like it's 12 inches, 24 inches, 6 2 

## inches on a 15-ton unit? Is this thing going to be 3 

## up on stilts? 4 

## MR. HOOTMAN: On a 15 ton, it could 5 

## elevate it three to four feet, yes. 6 

## MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's very 7 

## helpful. 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So, accommodations also have 9 

## to happen on the roof for stairways, for access for 10 

## servicemen in order to get to these units now because 11 

## they are that high up. It definitely happens on 30 12 

## tons. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew. 14 

## I just want to follow up on Jill's earlier 15 

## point, which is that a manufacturer when a new 16 

## standard goes into effect are going to redesign to 17 

## meet that new standard in their volume product, 18 

## right? So, what we see today -- you're doing a model 19 

## based on what you see today, recognizing that what 20 

## you see today is not what you're going to see in the 21 

## market comply with the new standard. And so that's 22 

## sort of a basic, underlying tension in this analysis,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the way it's structured and we can't make that go 2 

## away. You know these are some decisions being made 3 

## already earlier today. 4 

## What I would submit to the group is that 5 

## there's a built-in conservatism in the analysis 6 

## because of this, right? So, you're building in a 7 

## cost that, as someone said earlier smart engineers 8 

## may very well find a way to develop because you're 9 

## going to have a cost advantage. If you can make that 10 

## product without a conversion curve and your volume 11 

## unit for that portion of the market during the sales 12 

## you're going to have a big advantage in the 13 

## marketplace, right, come three years from the final 14 

## rule date. 15 

## And your competitors are going to have to 16 

## do the same thing or else they're going to lose 17 

## market share, right? So, it's going to be tremendous 18 

## pressure to find those solutions. Unfortunately, I 19 

## can't sit here today and say you know at what level 20 

## that's going to be, right, at what level do you not 21 

## need a conversion curve? 22 

## But what I would submit to the group isCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that it is a conservatism in the analysis that's 2 

## going to increase costs and reduce savings at those 3 

## higher levels. And that quite possibly will not 4 

## obtain -- you know I don't know a way -- I can't say 5 

## it's EL3, EL3.1, EL3.5. I don't know. There's no 6 

## way for me to say. 7 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Jill from Trane. 8 

## And I agree, Andrew, but you also have to 9 

## remember that we also opportunistically have to look 10 

## at who was in the marketplace, who were we replacing? 11 

## And we might be replacing someone else, so it's not 12 

## just like manufacture to like manufacture. It's you 13 

## know if I'm trying to grow a marketplace I'm going to 14 

## try to replace over Carrier. So, I might choose 15 

## different ways to attack that. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: But would that apply, the 17 

## conversion curve? 18 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I'd have to do a conversion 19 

## curve, likely. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: At any efficiency level? 21 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Possibly, any efficiency 22 

## level, yes.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: So, that suggest in the base 2 

## case we have conversion curved at a certain rate that 3 

## we have to capture it. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's possible, yes. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Right. You know if you're 6 

## switching from one manufacturer to another then 7 

## that's a part of the base. I mean this suggests to 8 

## me -- you know I don't know how big an issue this is. 9 

## I mean is this a 2 percent issue or is it a 20 10 

## percent issue? I mean if it's a 2 percent issue then 11



## -- 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Two percent to the energy 13 

## analysis or -- I don't know. 14 

## MR. DELASKI: Or do the cost analysis, 15 

## right? So, is this a sensitivity and we just can 16 

## dispose of this, or do we need need a sensitivity to 17 

## know I guess is the question I would pose to the 18 

## group? How far do we have to go down this issue or 19 

## can we set it aside because it doesn't matter that 20 

## much? 21 

## MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 22 

## From a cost perspective, it's significant,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## right? So, I think this other question about from an 2 

## energy perspective or how often it's applied that's 3 

## something I think we need to think about, but from a 4 

## cost perspective it can be a significant cost at 5 

## thousand bucks possibly. 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi, this is Greg. 7 

## From a cost perspective, this lends itself 8 

## very nicely to a sensitivity analysis. So, you could 9 

## see this in the life cycle costs results by just 10 

## either having a conversion curve or not having or 11 

## just having it on certain efficiency levels or 12 

## certain parts of that market. 13 

## So, on the energy side, again, that's a 14 

## little bit more involved just because we have to be 15 

## more careful about our calculations to get capture 16 

## the energy consumption. 17 

## MS. HOOTMAN: What about cost sensitivity 18 

## just from the equipment concerning sensitivity? 19 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I mean on the costs 20 

## there would be -- I mean I guess here's the question. 21 

## If you're going to put a unit on a conversion curve, 22 

## does the unit itself have to change?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, possibly could need 2 

## high static motors in order to overcome the static, 3 

## so -- not always. Not always, but depending on what 4 

## you're talking about here in this arduous path that 5 

## happens in air flow if that design was already at -- 6 

## you know kind of maxed for that unit or maxed for the 7 

## standard motor we almost all offer high static 8 

## motors. In these applications, we might have to move 9 

## to a high static motor to do it. 10 

## So, I'm just thinking through like a 7 11 

## ton might be at one inch of total static and now 12 

## you're using up another .2 to .25 or something in 13 

## this path. That might very well move you into the 14 

## high static motor, and there's a cost for that. 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. And that's 16 

## something we could to the product literature to 17 

## evaluate once we decide what the ESP for the ductwork 18 

## was. 19 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And for John's benefit, but 20 

## that high static motor is more efficient than our 21 

## standard motor. 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: But beyond that, then youCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## know I mean the cost within the unit is potential 2 

## upgrade of the motor and the pulley system. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: You have the cost of the 5 

## curve. You have the people installing have more to 6 

## do, so those are the different aspects of the costs. 7 

## MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 8 

## You know, realistically, when you're -- 9 

## you know if you're hooking up to an existing system, 10 

## you have to guess at what the ductwork is, and a lot 11 

## of times it's overestimated. Most of the static 12 

## pressures when you order a new unit what the static 13 

## pressure you order is probably going to be a lot more 14 

## than what is actually need for the job because when 15 

## you're sitting off in a design office designing these 16 

## things you don't what's going to be in the field 17 

## conditions a lot of times. 18 

## So, there's a tendency to oversize the 19 

## equipment because you don't know if they're going to 20 

## route the ductwork in a circle, in a square, and 21 

## everything else before it gets to the diffuser, so 22 

## you have to put a lot of safety factor in the design.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, an extra 2/10 of an inch I wouldn't think, in 2 

## general, is going to push that over the edge. And 3 

## chances are it's probably going to be -- you know the 4 

## other thing to think about is when you come in with 5 

## newer equipment motor efficiencies and fan 6 

## efficiencies have probably gone up rather than going 7 

## down, so you're getting more work for the same amount 8 

## of energy based upon higher efficiency products. 9 

## To me, I think sizing to a higher static 10 

## motor is probably not too likely unless you're 11 

## already there to start there. 12 

## MR. DOPPLE: So, Paul Dopple. 13 

## So, if you're designing for a building, 14 

## you're going to have to take that into consideration. 15 

## That's not like a surprise that would occur. You 16 

## would know that ahead of time and that would be part 17 

## of the calculation. 18 

## MR. STARR: Yes, you might if someone went 19 

## through with a tab report, right? That's how you'd 20 

## have to know that. If a balancer went through and 21 

## told you what the static pressures are in the 22 

## existing system; otherwise, you might just take theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## same piece of equipment and make sure that you end up 2 

## with the new stuff is the same as the old stuff. 3 

## MR. DOPPEL: Not if you're talking larger 4 

## capacity systems because people don't want to make a 5 

## mistake, especially with all the cost of having to 6 

## put the equipment on the rooftop. That's a huge 7 

## adder too. 8 

## MR. STARR: Well, I mean think about it. 9 

## If it's the exact same unit that's replacing your 10 

## older unit, as long as you get the same -- I mean, 11 

## first of all, not everything is engineered, right? 12 

## The contractors as well do the work and they don't 13 

## necessarily -- or maybe not going through a thorough 14 

## process. 15 

## The right thing to do would be is go out 16 

## and get the actual numbers of the pressure drop and 17 

## the duct work or what the existing systems are 18 

## operating at and then size your equipment based upon 19 

## that. 20 

## MR. DOPPEL: But the conversion curve 21 

## would be part of the ordering process even it was 22 

## just a contractor. So, in order to get theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## conversion curve, they're going to have to do an 2 

## analysis of what was there before, what the 3 

## capability of that system was, and then they're going 4 

## to have to re-look. So, it's going to have to be 5 

## included; otherwise, they're going to get in serious 6 

## trouble on that job, and they don't want to do that. 7 

## MR. STARR: But I mean think about. When 8 

## they order the air handler, most likely, it's not 9 

## running at full tilt. In other words, there's room 10 

## for more capacity in that system. And if they 11 

## designed the equipment at inch static pressure, 12 

## likely there's going to be less in that or they 13 

## wouldn't have been able to balance the job in the 14 

## first place. So, in other words, it's only 1-inch 15 

## static of pressure. 16 

## So, you throw in the static curve and 17 

## you've got another .2, so you're at 1.2. The 18 

## original system was sized to 1.5. You might even be 19 

## able to downsize your system a little bit. 20 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree. 21 

## MR. STARR: Which part? 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I don't agree with that. ICommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## can probably show you, and I just don't have time to 2 

## pull it up here, a 7 ton that will be nominally at 3 

## 1-inch static. And the minute you go to 1.2 you're 4 

## going to be in an oversized motor. And we design it 5 

## around the 1-inch total static and the edges are 6 

## there. And I know we ship a lot of them and I've seen 7 

## our customers use them on the conversion curves. 8 

## MR. STARR: So, you mean, though, their 9 

## existing systems that they're hooking up to you're 10 

## saying is one inch? 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 

## MR. STARR: They may be already be under 13 

## performing, right? That's possible. In other words, 14 

## the equipment that's already there may not be 15 

## performing to what it needs to and you're trying to 16 

## save money you cut the cost out of everywhere. So, 17 

## most engineers' designs are the opposite, right? 18 

## They're trying to cover themselves, so they're going 19 

## to oversize everything. 20 

## The contractor is the other way around, 21 

## right? He's trying to save money and he's figured 22 

## they always oversize stuff, so I'll just undersize myCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## stuff. So, I mean I guess it is a mixture of the 2 

## market. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: I can tell you what I ship, 4 

## and I can tell you that isn't what I ship. 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we could proceed on 6 

## this on the engineer side by providing to LBNL the 7 

## performance correlations that include a .2-inch 8 

## static addition for full load air flow. And then if 9 

## we can get input on costs, then we can use a cost 10 

## number and then do some sensitivity analyses 11 

## afterwards to see how that would affect the result. 12 

## MR. STARR: The other thing too is you 13 

## should, in your model, when you drop the CFM so that 14 

## you have a VFD you should also be dropping that 15 

## pressure drop with it, right? 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 17 

## MR. STARR: Right. 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: That's important. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: I was just looking back to 20 

## the costs. So, on the cost side of the equation you 21 

## know it just strikes me as an important question 22 

## where do you apply this cost adder for a conversionCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## curve? And I don't know how you're going to 2 

## determine that. I mean it's been floated here at 3 

## EL3, but I think I heard you say that some 4 

## manufacturers think that some today are doing that 5 

## without a conversion curve already. Some are using 6 

## conversion curves. Some are not. Some would 7 

## require, based on your analysis, a conversion curve. 8 

## Some would not. 9 

## You know it just strikes me as a bit of a 10 

## leap to say that that's the point. So, I think, at 11 

## most, you want to a sensitivity with and without on 12 

## the cost side and account for some proportion that 13 

## needed in the base case, but that would be more for 14 

## the overall analysis. 15 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: On the conversion curve, 17 

## all that is on the installation cost side, right, for 18 

## replacement of an existing unit. And what Detlef and 19 

## Navigant need to provide are performance at the 20 

## higher standard pressure, whatever that is, .2 inches 21 

## above the field accepted value. 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. And if you do haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## to go to an oversized motor that can be treated as 2 

## part of the installation that, okay, well in this 3 

## installation you know there's more costs required 4 

## coming from the factory. 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Just one last thing about 6 

## that, to assume an oversize motor you basically have 7 

## to assume everything is right at the edge. So, what 8 

## you could do is assume a certain percentage of the 9 

## population is at the edge. In other words, they've 10 

## got it designed right up to they need exactly one 11 

## inch of static pressure and that's what the fan can 12 

## deliver. 13 

## And so there will be I'm sure, as always, 14 

## there'll be a certain population that has designed it 15 

## right up to that amount. But it'll be a lot that you 16 

## know it's a one inch thing, but it only needs 17 

## three-quarter or whatever. And so if nothing else 18 

## maybe getting some kind distribute, maybe not always 19 

## going to an oversized motor, but maybe sometimes 20 

## doing it. That could be another way to do it. 21 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, do we think we have 22 

## enough discussion on this topic? Again, if anybodyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## does have input on -- and I guess here I'm looking to 2 

## Greg. You know I assume that there's been some 3 

## research potentially that you'd conduct on what are 4 

## conversion curve costs? 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right, there'd be the 6 

## conversion curve. You know we can get an estimation 7 

## on the conversion curve. I mean certainly welcome 8 

## input in the group for that, but barring that we'll 9 

## estimate it. If you're talking about potentially 10 

## shipping out a larger motor, I mean along with the 11 

## power at the higher pressure drops that would also 12 

## come from Detlef and the Navigant team along with the 13 

## power at the higher pressure drops. That would also 14 

## have to come from Detlef and the Navigant team. 15 

## MR. STARR: And one just last thing. You 16 

## mentioned the glass model has I think one and a 17 

## quarter and three-quarters for the different sizes. 18 

## So, keep in mind with the -- test procedures actually 19 

## covering not only just the external side, but it also 20 

## has the fan that they use has to overcome the coil 21 

## losses inside the unit and things. 22 

## So, that's why in the model they look atCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## the external static pressure consistencies, but the 2 

## fan actually sees -- most of time because there's 3 

## only one fan it sees the return ductwork. It sees 4 

## the filters. It sees the coil and whatever else, so 5 

## when I looked in the PNL model and also in the 6 

## commercial one, it's kind of figuring those pieces in 7 

## there too. So, I think it's 622 pascals, which comes 8 

## out like 2.5 or something. 9 

## Anyway, I just looked up those models and 10 

## it's right in the input file for the different 11 

## prototypes they have. I mean I didn't do a thorough 12 

## analysis, but it's in there. I would say you know 13 

## that I think, in general, it seems like everybody's 14 

## been happy with the PNL models on that front, but if 15 

## not, that'd be okay too. 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, maybe we ought to 17 

## move onto some of the other topics here. One issue 18 

## raised out the NOPR comments was the fact that the 19 

## coil designer and ^^^^ well, just the coil designer 20 

## software that we're using for much of our analyses 21 

## only did smooth tube coil analysis back in 2013. We 22 

## were not using the updated coil designer, which has aCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## rightful tube and so that should be resolving that 2 

## issue. 3 

## MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. 4 

## One thing we do need to be careful of is 5 

## the simulations need to be calibrated to the test 6 

## data to make sure that inputs are correct because 7 

## very minor differences in the inputs on the internal 8 

## enhancement can make a very significant difference in 9 

## the estimated simulation results. 10 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Good point. And 11 

## basically, what we're doing is we're matching to a 12 

## known parameter, such as capacity of EER. And so, to 13 

## the extent that we have that information in the 14 

## published literate, we're matching those key 15 

## parameters. 16 

## MR. THARP: So, to me as an engineer, the 17 

## key parameters are refrigerate state points, not 18 

## results. So, if I've got a 300,000 BTU unit, I can 19 

## get the 300,000 BTU's multiple ways in the simulation 20 

## results, but the refrigerant state points can vary 21 

## wildly. So, what we should be doing is matching the 22 

## refrigerant state points.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPHALEN: Which we can do if 2 

## everybody gives up all their test data. 3 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. 4 

## I would agree with Rusty. And we've kind 5 

## of talked. I mean one of the methods you've used to 6 

## match the capacity and efficiency was just change air 7 

## flow, and I think that's brought us into some problem 8 

## areas. And I think the refrigerant state points is 9 

## more of what you're looking for. 10 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, at this point we 11 

## use the air flow that's listed in the product 12 

## literature. 13 

## Any other comments or questions about 14 

## that? I mean I guess the question is -- 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 16 

## So, since we don't have the test data -- I 17 

## mean the analysis that we did was built off of the 18 

## product literature using air flow and not the 19 

## refrigerant set points. And the reason we can't do 20 

## that is because we don't have them. 21 

## MR. THARP: The TSD says there were five 22 

## systems that were tested, right? So, there's fiveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## sets of test data. Greg? 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: The test data do not 3 

## include the pressure measurements. 4 

## MR. THARP: Okay. 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Anyway, I think I'll move 6 

## on. Bring me back to that later if it's still an 7 

## issue. 8 

## Head pressure control one of the comments 9 

## made was that the correlations developed based on the 10 

## NOPR-phase data did not consider any change in 11 

## operation at cool ambient temperatures, and so now 12 

## what we will be doing is assuming that head pressure 13 

## control starts to take affect at an ambient 14 

## temperature of 65, and so that say the compressor 15 

## input at temperatures below 65 would not be any 16 

## different than it would be at 65. 17 

## We consider a reduction of condenser fan 18 

## power below 65 in order to take into account either a 19 

## reduction in speed or cycling of the condenser fans 20 

## in order to achieve head pressure control. Any 21 

## questions or comments on that? 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Just I think you missed theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## constant sub-cooling at the bottom. 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, good point. 3 

## Constant sub-cooling in our NOPR-phase analyses we 4 

## assumed that the sub-cooling didn't change as the 5 

## difference in temperature between ambient and 6 

## condensing temperature changed. And we are now 7 

## scaling that sub-cooling difference with that ambient 8 

## to condensing difference. 9 

## Okay, so moving to this last issue here, 10 

## the capacity in EER trends versus ambient this 11 

## relates very much to the same theme that the head 12 

## pressure control issue did. That basically, in 13 

## developing these correlations for the NOPR-phase some 14 

## of those equations when taken to the full range of 15 

## ambient conditions that were randomized gave results 16 

## that didn't make sense. And so what we're doing is 17 

## as part of the engineering phase evaluating those 18 

## correlations and then plugging them back into the IER 19 

## calculations to make sure we get back the same 20 

## performance of the unit and all of the points down to 21 

## the 65 Fahrenheit. And that might become a little 22 

## bit more clear as go later on if we have time.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, if there are no comments on that, I'll 2 

## move on to the next page. 3 

## (No response.) 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: The next issue here as to 5 

## do with micro-channel heat exchanges versus round 6 

## tube heat exchangers. And this applies only to air 7 

## the conditioning units and only the outdoor heat 8 

## exchangers of air conditioning units. We're assuming 9 

## that evaporators will not use micro-channel tubes and 10 

## micro-channel heat exchangers and that heat pumps 11 

## will not use outdoor coils that are micro-channels. 12 

## And so, we talked a little bit earlier 13 

## that for some of the classes and efficiency levels 14 

## that there are not that many units at those levels 15 

## that we can consider in our analysis. And so, when 16 

## we look at reasonable selections, we can not put 17 

## together a curve that is all a round tube or all 18 

## micro-channel all the way up and down the efficiency 19 

## level scale. 20 

## So, what we're doing in this analysis is 21 

## considering the performance of both round tube and 22 

## micro-channel. And assuming that -- you know we'veCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## built our cost models so that there's essentially 2 

## equivalent costs for either path, which may or may 3 

## not be exactly true. You know we think that it's an 4 

## industry in transition. You know some people may 5 

## have lower costs. Some manufacturers may have higher 6 

## costs with micro-channels. 7 

## MR. STARR: So, just a quick question. 8 

## Isn't the other thing on micro-channels is you can 9 

## get it in a smaller area? So, it sounds like isn't 10 

## one of the upsides that -- you know just talking 11 

## about the conversion curves if you don't have to 12 

## increase the size of your casing if you use to 13 

## micro-channel are you getting it in a smaller 14 

## footprint such that you don't need things like your 15 

## conversion curves, or does that not follow? 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes, potentially, 17 

## but you know with the approach we're talking, basing 18 

## the analysis on the existing models we can point to 19 

## the dimensions of the particular models whether or 20 

## not they have micro-channels. 21 

## MR. STARR: But you also have limitations 22 

## and the micro-channels can be designed and it has toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## be able to fit in the furnace, so you have the 2 

## dimensional constraints. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the manufacturing 4 

## of the micro-channel has constraints and so therefore 5 

## it causes us to have constraints, so, no, not in 6 

## every single case. We've actually had to grow our 7 

## cabinet where we've used it. 8 

## MR. STARR: Is that why you use 9 

## micro-channels to keep the case from growing a lot of 10 

## time? I mean is it sort of like your first step 11 

## things? 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No. 13 

## MR. STARR: No, okay. What is it, just 14 

## like the technology? 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Lower leak. 16 

## MR. DOPPEL: It also eliminates a lot of 17 

## problems that can be associated with dissimilar 18 

## metals, especially certain applications. 19 

## (Sidetalk.) 20 

## MR. THARP: And one thing you have to 21 

## remember too is most manufacturers will have Box A, 22 

## Box B, Box C, Box D. You try to get your 10 ton orCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## less in Box A. And you know the certain capacities 2 

## in Box B. And you only tool up for certain sizes and 3 

## if you can't get it in Box A, then you go to Box B. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: But Louis, literally, 5 

## because of that aspect ratio and because of the way 6 

## that they're made and their oven and how that 7 

## production is it literally caused us to grow a 8 

## cabinet because we couldn't get it in the size we 9 

## needed it. So, don't take it for granted that it's 10 

## going to do it. 11 

## MR. GOLLPUDI: This is Chandra from 12 

## Emerson. 13 

## But even in round tube, you have different 14 

## technology, different diameters, and all that, so 15 

## that needs to be taken into account. I mean there 16 

## are many ways you can -- manufacturers can reach the 17 

## micro-channel cabinet advantages with different tube 18 

## sizes and newer technologies. 19 

## MR. STARR: And a little bit where I was 20 

## just going with that is the sense that this is a -- 21 

## you know if you think about the conversion curve's 22 

## part is whether you're putting on a replacement unitCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## or not. But then I would say another element to that 2 

## is, to the extent that you could use technology in 3 

## order to keep you from going to the conversion curve. 4 

## So, it doesn't seem like it's a panacea of 5 

## everything. It's not going to solve every single 6 

## problem, but it will solve a some certain portion of 7 

## them. 8 

## And I don't know. I don't make or handle 9 

## enough to know how many that is, but just another 10 

## thought. I mean the same line of thought with that 11 

## as well. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: I guess I'm not quite sure 13 

## how to pose this question or who it's to, but so Jill 14 

## when you were saying that it doesn't necessarily 15 

## solve the problem of size because of the furnace 16 

## interaction. Is that taking today's unit or is that 17 

## back to my earlier formulation that, okay, a new 18 

## standard goes into effect. That's going to go into 19 

## effect three or four years from now. 20 

## You know now I'm going to redesign my 21 

## basic compliance product. I mean do those issues 22 

## start to get addressed as you redesign your basicCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## compliance? Because you're not going to -- sort of 2 

## we're trying to solve the multi-regulated problem all 3 

## at once at this point. And I'm going to optimize. 4 

## And Detlef characterized it as an industry in 5 

## transition with respect to micro-channels. 6 

## So, this is the trend and so let's fast 7 

## forward now to 2020 or 2021, whatever the year is, is 8 

## that what we're going to be using in the outdoor 9 

## unit? 10 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So, good question. And it's 11 

## what we weigh against, what did we just talk about a 12 

## half hour ago, we weigh that against the potential to 13 

## replace ourselves and replace others. 14 

## So, yes, we might say that the aspect 15 

## ratio is two to three or something for this 16 

## particular heat exchanger and EVAP coils and we would 17 

## optimize around it, but all of a sudden does that 18 

## cabinet change so significantly that it now we can't 19 

## meet up to the same curve and have those issues. 20 

## I'm going to tell you that the replacement 21 

## usually weighs out over optimized design. It's a 22 

## bigger deal for us because it's so much costs in theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## end run for our contractors to do those conversions 2 

## will eat up cost in production probably. 3 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. 4 

## Andrew, the other thing we're kind of 5 

## focusing on the air conditioning side, but part of 6 

## this discussion is also around furnaces. 7 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Just to be clear, when I 8 

## talk about furnaces of EVAP, of micro-channel you 9 

## have to realize they get put into a furnace to make. 10 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. 11 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay, not be confused with 12 

## the heating and air coil, the heating coil in a unit. 13 

## Okay. 14 

## MR. WINNINGHAM: And in order to meet the 15 

## proposed level, I'm not saying that that where we're 16 

## landing. I mean the general approach would be more 17 

## heat exchanger. And while there may be some areas 18 

## where smart engineers can get around physics will win 19 

## every time, and unless there's breakthroughs that 20 

## require a certain amount of heat exchange circuits to 21 

## do a certain amount of work. 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Gas heat exchangers we don'tCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## like to redesign very often, so they are one of our 2 

## sticking points because they take a lot to redesign. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, anything else on 4 

## micro-channels versus round tube? 5 

## MR. THARP: It strikes me that there's an 6 

## opportunity there that we're capturing in the 7 

## analysis and I don't know how to capture that. So, 8 

## to me, it's another conservatism in how we're 9 

## modeling this, but I don't have a way to get around 10 

## it. 11 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I imagine if John gave us 12 

## a year we could. 13 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No. 14 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 15 

## Jill, this is not like a three-year 16 

## transition. This is probably more like a ten-year 17 

## transition to that technology, the micro-channels. 18 

## And just think about all the manufacturers. 19 

## MR. WHITWELL: Many manufacturers produce 20 

## products with both, equipment with both, right? It's 21 

## an option. 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: It's an option. I don'tCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## know. I mean I can only speak for myself. And our 2 

## company it took us a couple, three years to change, 3 

## so it wasn't forever. 4 

## MR. DOPPEL: But it won't be the main 5 

## offering forever. 6 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe not. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: But the reason why I thought 8 

## the main offer is for the reason you were describing 9 

## before. And the reason you're describing is this 10 

## sort of different reasons why you might now make your 11 

## main offering. 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And I agree. I mean 13 

## you know a lot of us do produce our own coils. And 14 

## in that case that's another whole investment to 15 

## invested in those furnaces, et cetera, to make those 16 

## micro-channel coils. So, it's a philosophy change of 17 

## whether you want to build within or you want to go 18 

## out. 19 

## MR. STARR: I'm sort of getting lost. So, 20 

## the furnace size is set and so then the coil -- I'm 21 

## trying to figure out what the relationship to the 22 

## coil.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. HOOTMAN: The ovens that actually -- 2 

## MR. STARR: So, if you change your coil it 3 

## doesn't matter because that size is already set. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Because now you start to get 5 

## that aspect ratio is -- they only have so much give 6 

## in those. 7 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Unless they wanted to buy 8 

## a new furnace, which, of course, is another 9 

## proposition all together. 10 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Oh my, yes. 11 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, moving on here to 12 

## this second issue on this slide. And basically, the 13 

## bottom line here is that we have decoupled the energy 14 

## part of the engineering analysis from the cost part. 15 

## We are looking at development of cost curves. Costs 16 

## as a function of IEER separately from development of 17 

## the correlations that will go into building energy 18 

## use models. 19 

## And this is because when looking at the 20 

## cost versus IEER relationship we really want to look 21 

## at as many models as we can, but in order to do that 22 

## careful development of the correlations we just don'tCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## have time to do the full assessment of all of those 2 

## models. And so for that reason, we've done this the 3 

## decoupling here. I hope it's understandable what I'm 4 

## saying here, and if you have a question certainly 5 

## ask. 6 

## (No response.) 7 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Then we have this third 8 

## issue here is looking at additional efficiency 9 

## levels. And for the analysis that we started showing 10 

## last week, we added something that the team called 11 

## the EL3.1, which was during the NOPA phase EL4. And 12 

## then added at the higher level a max tech, which now 13 

## is called EL4, which it uses variable speed, 14 

## compressor technology typically at that level. And 15 

## so I suspect there might be some discussion of this 16 

## issue if anybody has any comments. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: So, Detlef, I'm glad that we 18 

## addressed in our written comments to the docket both 19 

## the need for max tech that really represents the max 20 

## tech, which I think is DOE's obligation or one of 21 

## their legal obligations under the rulemaking. I 22 

## don't think we're going to negotiate a level of maxCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## tech. So, it's interesting, but I don't think it's 2 

## really -- you know I'm not going to settle on the 3 

## level, a new EL4. 4 

## To me, what we also asked for in our 5 

## written comments was something to fill the space, 6 

## which is quite considerable between old EL3 and EL4 7 

## from NOPR. This was a point that we gave some 8 

## emphasis to in our written comments. 9 

## Last week on the phone you said that you 10 

## looked for something there, but you couldn't find 11 

## units to enable you to use the method that you were 12 

## looking for. So, we took that under consideration 13 

## and we went back -- well, it looked like to us what 14 

## you were doing, the reason why you couldn't find 15 

## units our hypothesis is that you were limiting 16 

## yourself to those particular -- to the capacities -- 17 

## to those precise capacities. 18 

## And it looked to us that if you let 19 

## capacity vary by only 10 percent that you could, 20 

## indeed, find units that would enable you to model 21 

## something between old EL3 and EL4 to better fill that 22 

## space. And to us that would give us a more completeCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## consideration of the space between baseline and max 2 

## tech, which was the argument in our written comments. 3 

## And we came up with -- I think the numbers 4 

## if we let vary by 10 percent we came up with values 5 

## of -- let me find it here -- for the 7 -ton unit -- 6 

## their models is weighted at 15.5, multiple models at 7 

## 15 tons, at 15 multiple models, and at 30, 13.7, 8 

## which you just tick above the EL3, but the other ones 9 

## it seemed to us they filled that space a little 10 

## better, and I think are more interesting. 11 

## I'm glad you're doing max tech, but I 12 

## think is more interesting in terms of filling that 13 

## space to give some variation there to not use that 14 

## tonnage as a rigid determinate of being able to find 15 

## a unit. So, I hope you can model those as well. And 16 

## again, so just linking back to the comments we've 17 

## been making all along. 18 

## MS. WALTNER: So, to further on to kind of 19 

## what you're saying is that absolute tonnage then 20 

## because of the energy analysis to try to keep it 21 

## exactly what it is? 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. I mean if I say I'mCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## modeling a 25-ton unit you know I need more units. I 2 

## don't get quite as much capacity out of a 25-ton 3 

## unit. The cost differential -- like if my cost 4 

## differential is a thousand dollars with a 25-ton unit 5 

## how does that compare with the same cost differential 6 

## on a 30-ton unit? So, there are some questions. You 7 

## know if we do this we have to sort of resolve those 8 

## questions. I think that could be resolved, but we 9 

## just have to be careful making sure that ultimately 10 

## apples to apples. 11 

## (Sidetalk.) 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Excuse me. For the 10 13 

## percent that scaling you should be able to a scale -- 14 

## you know find factors to scale. If we're getting 15 

## further off that then maybe those scales might not be 16 

## as reliable, but within a pretty close range is the 17 

## concept that we had. 18 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. On the first cut, 19 

## assuming that you would scale your cost by the 20 

## capacity you know would sound reasonable you know 21 

## within plus or minus 10 percent. 22 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And I was just thinking,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## just doing the math a little bit. So, you took a 30 2 

## ton and it became a 27 ton and while that sounds like 3 

## it's still within the same, it's a completely 4 

## different product for me. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: How about at the 15 ton 6 

## level with the 7 ton level? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Can everyone just use 8 

## their mikes, please? 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, there are some 10 

## places where there are platform step ups like you 11 

## know Rusty was saying Box A, Box B. And so, in our 12 

## analysis -- you know certainly in the cost analysis 13 

## we're aware of that and we're trying to make sure we 14 

## properly account for that. 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, it does appear like 16 

## it's going into a whole cabinet size in every single 17 

## case because a 15 ton goes down to 13 , which is 18 

## really that probably falls into a 12 ton more 19 

## nominal. Wouldn't you guys agree? And then that's a 20 

## different cabinet for all of us or a different unit. 21 

## That was the case in the 30 ton. And I haven't done 22 

## the math on the -- let's see what I have -- yes, sixCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and a quarter, and that's a different unit. I do see 2 

## the issue. It's become hard. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: On a cost curve, you 4 

## could imagine that you know it might be acceptable to 5 

## interpolate at an intermediate level. 6 

## MR. WHITWELL: The cost is going to go 7 

## somewhat in steps. The cost is not going to be a 8 

## straight, linear relationship as you go up through 9 

## the different chassis sizes, though, right? If we're 10 

## talking about jumping from one chassis to another 11 

## chassis size, it's not a linear cost different. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: If you are jumping 13 

## chassis sizes of course. 14 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Right. And that's 15 

## what we're talking about is probably this is what's 16 

## happening here is you know you go up or you go down 17 

## 10 to 15 percent in capacity you could be in the next 18 

## smallest chassis size or go the other way. You're in 19 

## a small capacity in a bigger box, so your efficiency 20 

## is going to be higher there and so that could give 21 

## you a substantial jump in efficiency, so it makes it 22 

## look like -- I mean you can't see what's happeningCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## unless you're actually looking at the size of the box 2 

## at each capacity size going on up through the line. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess it's for 4 

## the group to recommend whether we should consider 5 

## another intermediate efficiency level. And you're 6 

## right there is a big jump from EL3 to EL4. I'm not 7 

## quite sure how do deal with that at this point, 8 

## though. 9 

## MR. WHITWELL: You're right. There is a 10 

## big jump from EL3 to EL4. I'm not quite sure how to 11 

## deal with that at this point. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Is it possible to capture 13 

## that cost of chassis change, so the question is how 14 

## do you capture that. 15 

## MR. THARP: Rusty with Goodman. 16 

## I guess one of the concerns I have about 17 

## having additional efficiencies levels for 18 

## consideration is the timeframe again because we have 19 

## such limited timeframe, but if we are going to add in 20 

## addition ELs, I think we may want to consider like a 21 

## two and a half also. Because I mean once you get to 22 

## a justifiable number to me -- or I guess we're sortCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## of thinking that the best justifiable number may be 2 

## something less than EL3, but maybe more than two. 3 

## So, if we're going to throw an additional 4 

## analyses, let's look at those. But again, I'm not 5 

## sure we have the adequate time for additional levels, 6 

## but I do agree that between three and our it would be 7 

## good to have some other levels in between. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: So, I mean the challenge is 9 

## that you just can scale it. So, I mean it's easy to 10 

## add these levels if you just could scale, right? And 11 

## you guys are arguing that you just can't do it. You 12 

## got to have a unit there. 13 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Well, I don't know that I'm 14 

## arguing that you can't. I just want to go back and 15 

## look at what that means in cost and will it be a fair 16 

## way of looking at doing a curve and just picking up a 17 

## curve. I can't visualize that yet without some data 18 

## to look at that. 19 

## MR. DELASKI: Okay, so I just would put it 20 

## back again to you guys, to the manufacturers, and to 21 

## the consultants to consider because I'm all for two 22 

## and a half too, right? If we can populate -- for theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## negotiations, right, the more options we can put on 2 

## the table the more dimension we create for positive 3 

## outcomes, right? 4 

## MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 5 

## On the second one, the decoupling analysis 6 

## with the cost start, can you briefly explain what you 7 

## did originally? And think, if I remember, my 8 

## understanding of why those were decoupled was because 9 

## the power profile for the air handle was laid off and 10 

## that's why you decoupled it, but maybe you can just 11 

## briefly explain what the reasoning was for the change 12 

## in your analysis. Maybe what the original was and 13 

## why you changed it. 14 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, in the NOPR-phase 15 

## we developed models you know using the coil designer. 16 

## You know the University of Maryland tools. Some of 17 

## those were extrapolated off of the test units or 18 

## perhaps a catalog unit. And then we calculated costs 19 

## for the design associated with that unit. You know 20 

## sort of piggybacking off of information we had about 21 

## a reversed engineered unit, so you know say we know 22 

## how large the heat exchanger is.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Basically, the extrapolation on the cost 2 

## from say the tested and reversed engineered unit as 3 

## well as the energy side. And so when we got into 4 

## this approach of basing the analysis or the energy 5 

## side of it on existing units, you know when you 6 

## select your existing units you have different 7 

## manufacturers taking different approaches and then 8 

## you construct the cost curve and it's all wavy and it 9 

## doesn't make any sense because of the particular 10 

## strategies that one manufacturer took versus another. 11 

## And one manufacturer may be at the large 12 

## end of the small box and the other one might be at 13 

## the small end of the large box, so then the cost 14 

## curve doesn't look right. And so we decided in the 15 

## cost curve analysis we need to look at many more 16 

## units to get a better industry average, so that's why 17 

## we took this approach. 18 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer. 19 

## I just wanted to provide a little bit more 20 

## information about the specific unit set Andrew was 21 

## mentioning. I think they may be a little bit closer 22 

## to the actual capacities than the full 10 percent.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, for the 7 ton units it looks like they're units 2 

## at 15.5 that are at 96,000 BTUs, 7 tons is 90,000, 3 

## and then for the 15-ton units it looks like they're 4 

## units at 174,000 at 15.0 IER. So, I don't know if 5 

## those capacities are close enough to the 6 

## representative ones to make it a reasonable -- 7 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I mean this is something 8 

## we can look at. And given the pressures of the time 9 

## versus more data, certainly whatever the consensus 10 

## winds up being we'll do what we can to get the 11 

## numbers as quickly as possible. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And so, as we go through 13 

## these points, I've been making checkmarks when I 14 

## don't hear anybody say anything. So, just so that 15 

## you know from -- you know I'm being honest about it, 16 

## so when I looked around everyone's shaking their 17 

## head, nobody commented. I'm assuming what that meant 18 

## what Detlef explained in his approach the team was 19 

## taking that there weren't any -- or at least at the 20 

## time there aren't any -- there's no prevailing wisdom 21 

## to do something differently. So, I hope I'm reading 22 

## the group the right way.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STARR: I think I would be up for them 2 

## doing an additional level, as we suggested. 3 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: For this point, I did not 4 

## make a checkmark. There are a couple other ones 5 

## where I did. Until Louis just spoke up about the 6 

## decoupling, I had a checkmark, but I think I still 7 

## have a checkmark. But I just want to make sure that 8 

## we're not just -- you know Detlef just asked a great 9 

## question that is based on the consensus of the group 10 

## we will do X, Y, and Z. 11 

## Well, we don't have a lot of time to do X, 12 

## Y, and Z, so I want to push us along to say, okay, we 13 

## all think 3.05 is good and we think, I don't know, 14 

## 2.75 is good too, but you know we don't have three 15 

## weeks to come back here. So, kind of think about 16 

## that, and as we go along, let's try to make decisions 17 

## when we can. 18 

## MS. WALTNER: So, starting on the 19 

## intermediate efficiency levels, I just want to add my 20 

## support that I think that adding levels is I think a 21 

## very important step for us in this process. So, I'm 22 

## just adding my support there.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's great. I mean 2 

## we can do it. So, the real question is do we hit the 3 

## step function, and I think that's a valid concern in 4 

## both directions. And we may not know the answer on 5 

## the fly. I understand we need to look back. So, if 6 

## we go to the levels that Joanna just brought to our 7 

## attention, do we hit the step function in a chassis 8 

## swap out, for example? 9 

## I don't think we know that. We don't have 10 

## -- I don't think we do at the moment to know that 11 

## answer. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I don't think it'll be a 13 

## hard and fast answer. It depends on the 14 

## manufacturer. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And my sense is that if 16 

## the manufacturers can do -- you know forget about 17 

## the standards for a second, but if there was a way to 18 

## get that extra incremental efficiency level without 19 

## that big investment in chassis or whatever box side 20 

## that you would do it. We just don't know if you can 21 

## at the moment. We haven't examine it, at least 22 

## that's my theory.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, we would attempt to 2 

## analyze this based on the existing models and whether 3 

## or not if there are steps -- you know increase in 4 

## sizes that then make that curve non-linear in that 5 

## particular regions, then that should come out of the 6 

## cost analysis, given the information that we have. 7 

## I mean what I think what I would be 8 

## interested in know is getting a consensus. You know 9 

## I hear potentially two additional levels. Is there 10 

## consensus that we're going to do two? And if there 11 

## is consensus on two, roughly what would those levels 12 

## before for each of the classes. 13 

## I mean that's a lot to ask and maybe 14 

## that's not going to come out of this meeting right 15 

## now. Certainly, from our perspective if we're going 16 

## to have those results for engineering and LCC in say 17 

## two weeks time, we really need to know what we're 18 

## doing right now as I leave the room. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And so that was my point I 20 

## think. So, Andrew and Joanna, from their 21 

## perspective, what they're trying to do is squeeze a 22 

## little bit more efficiency without hitting that stepCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## function. Is that a fair characterization? And so I 2 

## guess the question to the group is do we think is it 3 

## 3.05 or 3.0 -- I mean we know 3.1 might make that 4 

## chassis change, or whatever it is that was described, 5 

## but do we think there's another sweet spot in there 6 

## by I guess altering the capacity a little bit. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm fully supportive of 2.5 8 

## if that helps to -- I mean we're trying to 9 

## characterize that curve. I mean we know what the 10 

## particular point is. We don't know what the sweet 11 

## spot is in terms of -- . 12 

## I like the idea of plug in both of those 13 

## spaces more completely. You know put on the table a 14 

## way to get to something in that -- I'm not used to 15 

## the terminology, in levels. 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, I think for the 2.5 17 

## the question of what the level is is much more 18 

## straightforward. We just take the average and that's 19 

## our target. 20 

## For the level that's just above three, I 21 

## don't know, do we want to go halfway in between? Do 22 

## we want to go you know a portion of the way from theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## three to what's now the 3.1? 2 

## MR. DELASKI: (Off mike.) 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: And then roughly how much 4 

## IEER. 5 

## MR. DELASKI: (Off mike.) 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Can you hit your mike? 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Sorry. They were the values 8 

## that I read off earlier, which again I found before. 9 

## Here they are. So, that was -- at 7 tons it was 10 

## 15.5. ELR is 14.8. So, we found models at 15.5. 11 

## MR. WHITWELL: And that was 96,000 BTU per 12 

## hour? 13 

## MR. DELASKI: We found models in the 15 14 

## ton range. We found models at 15, and that was 174 15 

## and we give, Detlef, the models. We'll show you the 16 

## models. We just pulled them off the HRI directory. 17 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. 18 

## MR. DELASKI: And EL3 -- I'm sorry. At 30 19 

## tons it was 13.7. EL3 is 13.5. So, it wasn't much 20 

## of a change for the 30 ton. At 30 tons, EL3 is 13.5. 21 

## We saw models at 13.7. It may have just been one. 22 

## Maybe it's Jill's model. I don't know. She seems toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## know that number. Anybody can check the HRI 2 

## directory, but those are the levels that we ^^^^ you 3 

## know those levels are well below the midpoint between 4 

## three and four. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Does it make sense to 6 

## focus on the 7 and the 15? 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Yes, I mean just from a pure 8 

## impact point of view, right? We're not talking -- 9 

## that would be where the -- 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I mean the more we 11 

## can narrow the focus the better off I think we are. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay, so does it sound 13 

## like we're talking about the two and a half level for 14 

## all three classes, but then above three for just the 15 

## 7 and 15? 16 

## MR. DELASKI: It makes sense to me. 17 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: It sounds like where the 18 

## action is. I mean I would vote for that. 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Do we have a consensus to 20 

## give some direction and then be able to move on? 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean the one question we 22 

## haven't settled on is -- so for the 7 and the 15Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## ton, do we think what the found in the directory we 2 

## can do some cost analysis to get there or we haven't 3 

## hit that yet? 4 

## MS. HOFFMAN: We haven't hit there yet. 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, that's the last 6 

## piece is do we hit the big step or do we hit some 7 

## scale. 8 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I mean I think we 9 

## would ^^^^ 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You would try to figure 11 

## that out? 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: We would try to figure 13 

## that from the data we have available to us. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 15 

## MR. BATTAGLIA: (Off mike.) 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, James, I don't 17 

## know. Is the plus or minus 10 percent already in 18 

## there of the cost analysis currently? 19 

## MR. BATTAGLIA: It may be. I think we 20 

## ought to back and look, but I think that plus or 21 

## minus -- we looked at the nominal capacity, so that 22 

## might have captured that. We definitely didn't haveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that 15 IER unit in our sample when we did it. 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: So, we'll have to look 3 

## back at our data and figure out what we can do there, 4 

## but it would be useful to have the models. And we'll 5 

## have to do some thinking about like if those are 6 

## gas-heat models and we're mostly looking at -- I mean 7 

## just some discussion about whether it should all be 8 

## gas heat, but I know we've kind of gone down this 9 

## path and we'll probably stick with it. But yes, I 10 

## mean it would be useful to have the model numbers. 11 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. 12 

## The SPA models in the HRI directory are 13 

## all non-gas heat; is that right? 14 

## MR. WESTPALEN: Yes. 15 

## MS. MAUER: Okay, so that what we were 16 

## looking at for these. 17 

## MR. WESTPALEN: SPY is gas heat. 18 

## MS. MAUER: Right. Yes, so we were 19 

## looking at the SPA models. 20 

## MR. DELASKI: We'll give you the units. 21 

## We'll just give you the little spreadsheet. 22 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Good.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MS. MAUER: So, I'd like to move back to 2 

## the cost point if we're done discussing intermediate 3 

## ELs. 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Getting more cost data is 5 

## going to be hard out of us. At least I'm going to 6 

## speak for myself. It takes a lot. I have to 7 

## dedicate an engineer and a finance person to sit down 8 

## and pull this stuff, and it doesn't happen overnight. 9 

## It takes me weeks. 10 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: All right, so I think 11 

## we're going to take a crack at it, that's what I'm 12 

## hearing. 13 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And then we'll bring the 15 

## results out and see what they say. I really wanted 16 

## to finish this slide. 17 

## MS. HOFFMAN: He's hard. I've already 18 

## tried for a break one. 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Only because the topic 20 

## switches to buildings after that. 21 

## MS. HOFFMAN: By the way, do you have your 22 

## marching orders on the earlier run with the 2.5, whatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## you're going to do? 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 3 

## MS. HOFFMAN: You're all set? Okay. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I think there's just 5 

## one more topic left on engineering. 6 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, Meg wants to go 7 

## back. 8 

## MS. WALTNER: Yes. 9 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Not so fast. 10 

## MR. WALTNER: That was the second half of 11 

## the comment I was trying to make earlier when I let 12 

## you respond to me. So, my understanding of the way 13 

## that you changed the cost analysis before you were 14 

## building up the cost based on your modeled equipment 15 

## and now you're using the cost for actual equipment, 16 

## actual cost data that you have equipment available 17 

## today. Is that an averaging cost over you know the 18 

## models that you have that data for; is that right? 19 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes, basically, we go to 20 

## the product literature and look at all the models 21 

## that we can. And the key designed details like heat 22 

## exchanger size. And fortunately, for a lot of theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## manufacturers there's a lot of information there that 2 

## really helps in understanding how big are the heat 3 

## exchangers, what compressor are there, what kind of 4 

## finds, and all of that information feeds into the 5 

## cost models. And so then we estimate costs for all 6 

## of these models and we've tried to get feedback 7 

## directly from the manufacturers under nondisclosure 8 

## agreement as to how close we are on those estimates. 9 

## But you know then we have these estimates and then 10 

## you can put that on a scatter plot of costs versus 11 

## IEER and then try to figure out, okay, what's the 12 

## trend. 13 

## MS. WALTNER: Right. Okay, that makes 14 

## sense. And I guess I would just raise the flag as 15 

## we're doing that. The point, though, has been 16 

## brought up a couple times that the high efficiency 17 

## models today are not the same models that would be 18 

## the high efficiency models if the standard was 19 

## brought to that level and sort of how that would 20 

## affect the cost. 21 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes, and we then 22 

## estimate our costs at those different levels based onCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## full production quantities at those levels. 2 

## MS. WALTNER: So, it sounds like that's 3 

## already something you're doing. 4 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. And what we're not 5 

## doing is looking at future designs that we can't 6 

## conceive of yet. 7 

## MS. WALTNER: Right. 8 

## MR. BATTAGLIA: I just want to follow up 9 

## on the issue with that 3.05 level or whatever. One 10 

## of the issues I think, and I'll verify the model, but 11 

## some of these spreadsheets don't provide all the 12 

## information that Detlef was talking to like the heat 13 

## exchanger sizes, compressors, and such, so that 14 

## becomes another issue. We can't model that for the 15 

## cost or the energy modeling if we don't have the data 16 

## for those units. 17 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. We don't have 18 

## complete data of the full industry necessarily. 19 

## Shall we try to move onto the last item 20 

## here, the coil circuiting? 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. Because my math is 22 

## we have three hours and 15 minutes after lunch and atCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## 3:15 it'll be exactly half and half with 15 minutes 2 

## in the middle. 3 

## MS. HOFFMAN: It's great when you work 4 

## with engineers, right? 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I can make it. 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Come on, we're almost 7 

## there. Come on, we really have a good reason to move 8 

## forward. 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I believe this is a 10 

## fairly small issue here. In cases where we're 11 

## considering staged air, we are using intertwined 12 

## circuits or front/back circuits for the split if 13 

## there's two circuits, each serving a separate 14 

## compressor in order to limit the impacts of reducing 15 

## the air flow. You know if you have a staged or a VAV 16 

## so that all the air flow has interchange with all of 17 

## the evaporator for the given circuit, even when the 18 

## second compressor is not operating. 19 

## I don't think anybody is going to have any 20 

## argument with the concept, maybe some argument with 21 

## whether we're getting the results 100 percent 22 

## correct.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## (No response.) 2 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: John doesn't hear 3 

## anything. 4 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: And I don't even know what 5 

## you're talking about. 6 

## (Laughter.) 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: An economist. I don't see 8 

## any dollar signs in there. 9 

## (Laughter.) 10 

## MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 11 

## I'll say that from a perspective of the 12 

## staged air flow that's the correct thing to do. 13 

## Agreed. But another thing that needs to be taken 14 

## into consideration is the number of circuits per 15 

## refrigerant circuit and it's potential impact in the 16 

## measure versus actual performance as you change 17 

## efficiency levels. Because as you increase your coil 18 

## volume surface area if you keep the same number of 19 

## circuits you've got a different pressure drop per 20 

## circuit. That needs to be taken into account. And 21 

## if you change the number of circuits, then that also 22 

## the impact needs to be taken into account.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, that would be interesting. I was 2 

## unable to participate in the last two equipment 3 

## modeling sessions, but I would like to make sure that 4 

## those issues are addressed in the modeling because it 5 

## can make a major impact on what is estimated to be 6 

## required to hit a certain efficiency level, one way 7 

## or the other. It could cause an overestimation. It 8 

## could cause an underestimation. So, it's needed. 9 

## I'm interested in seeing the details of the input for 10 

## all the various models just to make sure that there's 11 

## nothing that sticks out like a sore thumb. 12 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. I imagine that 13 

## might be guidelines in terms of rules of thumb of how 14 

## much pressure drop do you want to see in an 15 

## evaporator, how much do you want to see in a 16 

## condenser in order to get the right number of 17 

## circuits. The product literature doesn't show that, 18 

## so we're kind of going by those kinds of rules of 19 

## thumb. And if you want to have like a sidebar 20 

## meeting to go over some of that or provide some 21 

## guidelines, certainly, I mean we're open to that. 22 

## MR. THARP: I think it wouldn't be a badCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## idea to either create a subgroup or continue the 2 

## equipment modeling subgroup from previously to review 3 

## some of those details, probably as quickly as 4 

## possible, obviously. 5 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Well, let me think 6 

## about -- 7 

## MR. THARP: We can have some sidebar 8 

## conversations also in addition. 9 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: Yes. Let me think about 10 

## what the best way to try to have that conversation 11 

## without having the team just stop what they're doing 12 

## and then try to get back to you on that. 13 

## MS. HOFFMAN: Now, would it be fair to say 14 

## that it's break time. Come back in how long, 15 15 

## minutes? What is it, 3:30? We'll see you back here 16 

## at 3:30. Thank you. 17 

## (Whereupon, a break was taken at 3:16 18 

## p.m.) 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I'll turn it over to Greg 20 

## Rosenquist from LBNL to go through the work that's 21 

## been done in the buildings modeling part of the 22 

## analysis.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: Hi everyone. So, 2 

## hopefully you can start thinking about buildings 3 

## rather than equipment modeling. You'll refresh your 4 

## mind. 5 

## A lot of these issues were identified out 6 

## of a meeting that was in Berkeley on March 19 and 7 

## 20th. So, I think a lot of them have been resolved, 8 

## at least on this slide, but of course, if not, 9 

## certainly let me know if you think differently. 10 

## The first one has to do with the design 11 

## temperature for the system sizing. Blast is a 12 

## simulation model that was used to determine the 13 

## energy use of this equipment, and from that building 14 

## loads were backed out of. And in 15 

## that calculation, they also determined the system 16 

## size for the building. And for that calculation it 17 

## was assumed that it was based upon a 95 degree design 18 

## temperature, but that was incorrect. It should be 19 

## actually one percent cooling dry belt design 20 

## temperature, and that change has been made. What 21 

## that has the affect of doing is reducing the number 22 

## of units that serve the building. So again, that'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## been done and the most recent files have been sent to 2 

## the working group. Again, I believe that one's 3 

## resolved. 4 

## We talked about it briefly in our last 5 

## call, but from my understanding I think that was 6 

## taken care of. 7 

## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 8 

## I have a question about that. You're 9 

## saying that revising the design from 95 degrees to 1 10 

## percent cooling dry belt design results in a 11 

## reduction in load and a reduction of the number of 12 

## units needed to serve buildings? 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, the system size is 14 

## based upon the design temp, so for a lot of these 15 

## buildings it's around 90 degrees Fahrenheit rather 16 

## than 95. And so if you go ahead and use that as 17 

## opposed to 95 that ends up resulting in just less 18 

## units having to serve that building. 19 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, I understand. I 20 

## just wanted to clarify that because you know where I 21 

## live the design temperature might be higher than 95, 22 

## but for the nation as a whole. Thank you.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. I mean the examples 2 

## I had done were not in California or Central Valley, 3 

## I should say. So, there I think the design temp 4 

## would be about 95. 5 

## The next issue was the load factor. And 6 

## it's important for determining the cyclic degradation 7 

## of the unit, basically, how often the unit turns on 8 

## and off to meet load. And in the analysis performed 9 

## for the NOPR, it was determined that we had an 10 

## incorrect calculation there. The load factor was 11 

## determined across all the stages of equipment as 12 

## opposed to just the upper stage that the equipment 13 

## was in. So, this would really affect things or this 14 

## does really affect things when the unit is beyond its 15 

## first stage if it's a two-stage unit or a three-stage 16 

## or four-stage unit. 17 

## This correction can have a significant 18 

## affect and it does for 7 -ton units, especially 19 

## going from single stage to two stage. Also, there 20 

## was another correction that had to be made where 21 

## there was an assignment of a degradation coefficient 22 

## of one whenever the unit was in its highest stage ofCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## operation, so that's also being corrected. 2 

## So, the top two items have already been 3 

## dealt with and the file sent back to the working 4 

## group. It's reflected in those files. What we're 5 

## further going to do based upon input we've heard from 6 

## the working group is the units -- many of the loads 7 

## that we're seeing are times when the unit operating 8 

## in both heating and cooling. And so the cooling load 9 

## is relatively low during this time and we have the 10 

## assumption that all the units in the building are 11 

## running during this time. And as a result, often the 12 

## units are running at below 25 percent part load. 13 

## So, a better way to handle this we feel is 14 

## to have only a certain number of units serve that 15 

## load. And we haven't exactly thought through the 16 

## numbers of units, but we're thinking that perhaps 17 

## have units bunched in sets of 10 perhaps, maybe 8 or 18 

## 9 or 7. Whatever that number is we're looking for 19 

## input, but basically saying that if 10 units -- if 20 

## the unit's being served let's say by 20 units and 21 

## that load can be met with 10 of them or 12 of them, 22 

## then we would reflect that on the analysis and thatCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## way the equipment then wouldn't be in such a low part 2 

## load condition as we're currently assuming and so 3 

## this revision and this method then will result in 4 

## calculating the cooling load for a smaller number o f 5 

## units and thus, they would be at a higher part load 6 

## condition. 7 

## MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. 8 

## So, I guess maybe an example -- so what 9 

## you're thinking about is maybe say a large retail 10 

## space of some sort. You're saying that you maybe 11 

## have 20 units serving a retail floor or something. 12 

## You assume those loads, so you assume that 10 of them 13 

## would be running to meet the load and the other 10 14 

## would be off; but in reality each one -- I mean it 15 

## seems like each on of those might have a thermostat 16 

## and sort of be zoned for first flow. 17 

## For instance, in a retail space you would 18 

## have maybe an electronic section that would have a 19 

## little more load than the clothing section, right, or 20 

## actually maybe the reverse because you have more 21 

## lighting on the clothing. I don't know. But anyway, 22 

## there could be actually different things in there soCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that it seems like those units could really not cycle 2 

## 10 at a time. I mean that would be great if they 3 

## did, but I don't think that's how they would work. 4 

## Help me to understand what the -- 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I guess I was thinking 6 

## more about an office building where you have core and 7 

## parameter zones. And maybe that's the thing to do 8 

## here is just apply this method to only office 9 

## buildings rather than retail. 10 

## MS. HOOTMAN: But retails going to have 11 

## what he's talking about, where other areas are not 12 

## running, but there is light load are. So, you're in 13 

## a Macy's and over the cosmetics counter has got the 14 

## light load and it's going to happen, but in other 15 

## areas it won't, so you'll have that switching on and 16 

## off. 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: A lot of blast output 18 

## we're seeing you know instances where there's both 19 

## heating and cooling and so we would be applying this 20 

## method -- potentially applying this method when we 21 

## would see that type of condition occurring in the 22 

## data.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STARR: So basically, it where you 2 

## have a different kind of system which is probably 3 

## more VAV with reheat like a large office building 4 

## where its parameters you might be heating because 5 

## it's a cold morning. And meanwhile in the center of 6 

## the building it's pretty hot because everybody's in 7 

## there making lots of heat and so you're trying to 8 

## compensate your output to make up for that by making 9 

## this assumption that you're doing. 10 

## So, I guess that maybe okay; but yes, you 11 

## certainly would be based on certain kinds of spaces 12 

## like the certain models of the 10,033 that have that, 13 

## but I wouldn't say you'd want to do that across the 14 

## board. 15 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 16 

## So, it seems to me that you're going to 17 

## have different levels of energy usage when you do 18 

## that and different efficiency levels. And it would 19 

## just seem if you consolidated to 10 instead of 20 20 

## that you're going to have a different performance 21 

## characteristic than the other. 22 

## So, does that increase energy savings?Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, that's kind of the whole issue here. So, if the 2 

## systems are not capable of doing that themselves, 3 

## then you're trying to replicate what reality is and 4 

## not what's easy to do. 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: If you're going from a 6 

## single stage to a two stage, right, you'd see a 7 

## dramatic -- probably a significant change in the way 8 

## energy is being consumed in that building, right, 9 

## because for the two-stage unit you can better meet 10 

## that load than in a single-stage unit. So, in going 11 

## from two stage to two stage, it could be a different 12 

## situation. 13 

## MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie from Lawrence 14 

## Berkeley Lab. 15 

## I was just going to say I mean the initial 16 

## idea here is to construct a sensitivity, so you know 17 

## obviously we're not going to be able to capture all 18 

## these nuances, but right now we have one very extreme 19 

## case that's being modeled where all units are 20 

## operated as a single unit, which in a building with 21 

## 50 units is not a realistic assumption. 22 

## So, we're going to change that assumptionCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## and we can look at what the impact will be. And I 2 

## think you know these details will be more -- it'll be 3 

## more productive to discuss those once we have the new 4 

## calculations. 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay, so onto the next 6 

## one, which I hope isn't controversial any longer. 7 

## It's about the fan speed when the unit isn't heating, 8 

## space heating. 9 

## We went around on this a bit, and I think 10 

## we've all decided that it should be in high speed. 11 

## And for the inter-fan space cooling, what was done 12 

## for the NOPR is that there were all these 13 

## correlations where power was a function of dry belt 14 

## temperature. And actually, there were some cases for 15 

## some efficiency levels there was no low limit on 16 

## that, so you could actually get down to a pretty low 17 

## fan wattage in some cases. 18 

## So, moving forward, we're just going to 19 

## have the fan power be a function simply of the stage 20 

## that you're in. I think again there's consensus on 21 

## doing it that way. Also, on something that will have 22 

## less of an effect is that we'll use the load factorCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## to determine the energy used when it's in a high 2 

## stage rather than just this percent in value that we 3 

## were getting from the blast output. 4 

## MR. STARR: So, just a question on that. 5 

## So, when you're in economizer mode, that fan energy's 6 

## counted somewhere else or how do you take care of 7 

## that fan energy because you're still cooling, right? 8 

## When it's 60 or 75 in here and you've got nice, cold 9 

## outside air you know you turn on the economizer. You 10 

## won't be turning on your compressors, but you'll be 11 

## pulling in air and your fan will probably be running 12 

## on its high speed, so it's being captured somewhere 13 

## else, right? 14 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, you know at least 15 

## for the buildings we've been looking at there's very 16 

## little time that the fan's actually in ventilation 17 

## mode. It's either in cooling/heating or heating and 18 

## cooling. And again, you know it's hard to tell how 19 

## much economizing is going on for a building that has 20 

## an economizer and blast. 21 

## So again, we're just keying off you know 22 

## what stage the equipment -- I mean we're keying theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## fan power consumption off what stage the cooling is 2 

## in or if it's heating we put in high speed for 3 

## heating. So, that's what we're currently doing. 4 

## MR. STARR: So, that basically means the 5 

## fan energy you're picking up and probably outside air 6 

## temperature of 75 up you're assuming some kind of 7 

## staged compression, and below that? But you k now 8 

## there is cooling happening there. It's just not 9 

## staged compressor. 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 11 

## MR. STARR: It seems like you should be 12 

## trying to capture that somewhere. I mean it's not 13 

## ventilation, right? It's really cooling. I don't 14 

## know. It's hard to capture; is that the problem? 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, it is hard to 16 

## capture, at least again with the data that we're 17 

## dealing with. 18 

## MS. WALTNER: This is just a request. You 19 

## said that the revised analysis on the first two 20 

## points had been sent to the subgroup. I'm not sure I 21 

## got that, so if that could be posted on the share 22 

## point, once it's up --Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. 2 

## MS. WALTNER: -- or make sure it's sent 3 

## around to the whole group. Thank you. 4 

## MR. DOPPEL: Can that request apply to 5 

## all? 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 7 

## (Sidetalk.) 8 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I think Louis is a little 9 

## uneasy with the indoor fan for space cooling. 10 

## MR. STARR: I would say if we were to look 11 

## at the number of economizing hours like in Portland 12 

## there's a lot of them. I want to say two to three 13 

## thousand that were not actually -- every morning we 14 

## don't actually turn on the cooling until about 11:00 15 

## or 12:00, and we're definitely cooling and we're -- 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Let me just revise my 17 

## statement here on the fly that, again, for the 18 

## buildings that we've been -- this handful of 19 

## buildings we've been looking at more closely for the 20 

## spreadsheet calculations, again, like I said, there's 21 

## very, very few hours, if any, that it's in 22 

## ventilation.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## Now, I'm not looking at a building in 2 

## Seattle or Portland or a place where there could be a 3 

## lot more economizing going on. And in that building 4 

## perhaps it is in a mode where it's economizing a lot 5 

## when there's no mechanical cooling or heat, but the 6 

## fan's on. And in those cases, and I hear what you're 7 

## saying. What you're suggesting is have it be in a 8 

## high speed mode during that time. 9 

## MR. STARR: Yes. Or at least be counting 10 

## the fan energy in some way, yes. But most likely, it 11 

## would be pretty much going full out. And you know 12 

## Climate Zone 4 is quite a bit -- you know it's not 13 

## just Oregon. It's through the center of the country 14 

## and on up. And you know also when you get into the 15 

## higher -- five, six, seven those also could be using 16 

## economizer too a lot rather than using compression. 17 

## The same thing in the mornings until lunchtime or 18 

## whatever when the air heats up you could still be 19 

## using all of that free cooling. It seems like 20 

## there's a lot of hours there. I'm thinking in the 21 

## order of two to three thousand, but I'm not sure. 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: What I'm hearing then isCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that when the blast output that says that the fan is 2 

## on, right, and it's not heating or cooling then what 3 

## we would do in that circumstance is bring the fan 4 

## speed up to high. 5 

## MR. STARR: I think a portion of it is 6 

## ventilation, right? In the wintertime, you wouldn't 7 

## want to be pulling in cool air, so it'd be 8 

## ventilating. The summertime, you could be cooling or 9 

## you could not be. It depends on the set point in the 10 

## room. 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I mean what I have for 12 

## that hour, right, whether it's heating, cooling or 13 

## heating and cooling, or if the fan's just on, right, 14 

## without any of those three things going on. 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, how does it impact the 16 

## analysis, though, as we step through IEER levels? 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, this is just for 18 

## calculating energy savings from a particular piece of 19 

## equipment, right? And in this case, when it's in 20 

## economizing mode, right? 21 

## And I guess what I'm saying here is at 22 

## least during cooling, heating and cooling and heatingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I meant the fan speed is being specified by the 2 

## methods I've just described. 3 

## MS. COUGLIN: So, it's possible that we're 4 

## currently underestimating the base case energy use 5 

## during ventilation only. And depending on the 6 

## efficient improvement associated with the fan going 7 

## to higher yields we might get a slightly higher 8 

## energy savings, but I think the fraction varies. I 9 

## mean even in -- in some areas it may be significant, 10 

## but when we do the national building sample I don't 11 

## think it's going to be a very large -- I mean it'll 12 

## be in the order of a couple percent probably. That's 13 

## my guess. 14 

## MR. DOPPEL: It's Paul. 15 

## I don't know whether it's connecting or 16 

## not. I mean the only other thing is this maybe while 17 

## your post-processing the economizer you could capture 18 

## it somewhere in that area too, and post process that. 19 

## But if it only gets to make a big difference in the 20 

## analysis, then I guess don't worry about it. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean that's kind where 22 

## I'm focused right on this issue because it seems toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## me if it's really on the order of 1 to 2 percent is 2 

## it going to change the policy outcome, which is I 3 

## think the important part here. 4 

## MS. COUGHLIN: We can do a sensitivity 5 

## order. We can go ventilation hours and just go from 6 

## there to high speed and look at the impact on total 7 

## energy use and that will give us an upper bound on 8 

## the change. 9 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, talking about 10 

## economizing, again, the formal working group has been 11 

## discussing this for a while now. And you know 12 

## there's two proposed approaches I've put up here. 13 

## One is somehow validate that the blasting relation 14 

## output for economized building is fine, and I 15 

## presented a slide in last Friday's call to try 16 

## demonstrate that. And the other option is 17 

## post-process blast output for buildings that are not 18 

## economized into an economized building. 19 

## And so the input we're looking for here 20 

## from the group is does one of these methods seem fine 21 

## or is there another method that could potentially 22 

## resolve this issue? I feel like right now it'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## definitely unresolved. And again, we're just 2 

## proposing a couple of methods here to try to take 3 

## care of it. 4 

## MR. DOPPEL: Can we call a friend? 5 

## (Laughter.) 6 

## (Sidetalk.) 7 

## MR. DELASKI: So, when I heard things on 8 

## the phone call -- this Andrew -- Greg you were 9 

## describing on the phone that in the blast simulation 10 

## -- or as you understand it I think you said it was 35 11 

## percent of buildings, but that the square footage was 12 

## more like -- a much larger number, like 70 or 80 13 

## percent. So, I guess I needed to understand what do 14 

## you think is happening in the blast model? 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, so this is the slide 16 

## I had presented last Friday on the phone call. And 17 

## on the left are the non-economized buildings. On the 18 

## right are the economized buildings on the blast, and 19 

## comparing both cooling load on a regional basis for 20 

## all the buildings in that region. And then the 21 

## bottom table is an average cooling load per square 22 

## foot. And just trying to get a sense maybe of ifCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## blast is doing something with regards to economized 2 

## building to reduce cooling load. 3 

## And the take aways I had from this I think 4 

## you really should ignore that building count because 5 

## I think you really want to look at the cooled square 6 

## footage is that two-thirds of the cooled square 7 

## footage being analyzed, at least in those blast 8 

## simulations was with economizers. And the other big 9 

## taw away is that is that at least on a national basis 10 

## the cooling per square in economized buildings is 11 

## lower than that in non-economized buildings. 12 

## Now, it does definitely vary by region. 13 

## And in some regions during the summer, for example, 14 

## it's actually higher. Region 7 is Texas, Oklahoma, 15 

## and Louisiana, so it's a question there if 16 

## economizing are even all that effective down there 17 

## for them. 18 

## So anyway, that was the purpose of this 19 

## slide is to try to at least get a very, very high 20 

## level sense of whether or not blast modeling is at 21 

## all decent. The other slides I had presented in the 22 

## previous day's call were talking a non-economizedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## building and using this method here to turn it into 2 

## an economized building. And that involved 3 

## calculating the absolute humidity on an hourly basis 4 

## for each one of these, these 8760, the 8760 being 5 

## 8,760 hours a year, and comparing that to the indoor 6 

## conditions of the air. 7 

## And this is a big assumption here. You're 8 

## assuming that the indoor air is maintained at 75 9 

## degree dry belt, 50 percent relative humidity, but if 10 

## you satisfy these two conditions -- if the absolute 11 

## humidity of the outdoor air is less than the absolute 12 

## humidity of indoor air and your outdoor dry belt temp 13 

## is less than your indoor dry belt temp, then you're 14 

## going to economize. And that last equation shows you 15 

## how much you're going to reduce your cooling load by 16 

## when you're economizing. And what that ends up doing 17 

## is -- West Palm Beach is not a good example here, but 18 

## let's take Baltimore. 19 

## This Baltimore building, which on the left 20 

## it shows you the building load as a function of dry 21 

## belt temp, and what would happen to that load if you 22 

## applied this method. And in total, you're going fromCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## 1.4 billion BTU's of cooling load in that year to 2 

## just over 1 billion BTU's cooling load in that year. 3 

## Again, there's a lot of simple assumptions 4 

## behind this, but that's the affect of using this 5 

## method. So, it was roughly a 35 percent reduction in 6 

## cooling load for that particular building. 7 

## MR. STARR: So, I guess I have a couple of 8 

## thoughts. So, really the calculation that you're 9 

## doing is probably what the energy model in blast is 10 

## doing, right, I suspect if not -- you know those 11 

## equations are not new. Those are old equations and 12 

## so I suspect the other one is doing it. What the 13 

## difference is is coming up is that in your calculated 14 

## model it assumes that all of the economizers worked 15 

## perfectly. 16 

## And in the blast model, I think in the A 17 

## NOPR in the appendix it talks about two things, a 18 

## failure of the economizer at a certain rate and I 19 

## think it talks about ventilation here, and I don't 20 

## know if that affects it or not. But essentially, one 21 

## would assume that the economizers work perfectly in 22 

## the math, unless you were going to do somethingCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## different with your math now, and I'll assume that 2 

## they don't. And I think that's what the difference 3 

## maybe between the blast models and the non-blast 4 

## models or just the straight calculation are. 5 

## And so that's I think what -- when you 6 

## presented the options of "A" and "B" there, that's 7 

## really what you're getting to. If the post 8 

## processing assumes a perfect economizer and the blast 9 

## models do not, to my mind that's always what the 10 

## difference was. When Dick was looking at the two 11 

## building profiles my thought when I looked it at was, 12 

## yes, they just didn't check the box for economizers 13 

## working and that's what you're seeing, but I don't 14 

## know if that's everybody's take on it or not. 15 

## And I mean to me that's what the 16 

## difference is, and so when you talk about which one 17 

## we should use I mean the blast one is conveniently 18 

## already there and we don't have to do anything with 19 

## it, so I like that. But if we did "B" with some kind 20 

## of failure rate, I'd probably be okay with that too. 21 

## MR. DELASKI: Just a follow-up question, 22 

## Greg. This is Andrew.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, when you show two-thirds of the square 2 

## footage have economizers, those are functioning 3 

## economizers? 4 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. So, of that 5 

## two-thirds, 30 percent of them are assumed to be 6 

## inoperable. 7 

## MR. DELASKI: Thirty percent of the 8 

## two-thirds are inoperable? 9 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: I'm just trying to sort sync 11 

## up the numbers from our call last week. There were 12 

## some numbers tossed out. I couldn't identify all the 13 

## voices on the phone, but some people say 80 percent 14 

## of the units are shipped with economizers today. 15 

## That was one number tossed out. So, 80 percent being 16 

## shipped today isn't that far off from 67 percent in 17 

## the stock having economizers. So that would suggest 18 

## that the stock is pretty stable. 19 

## I had initially heard that the one-third 20 

## of the ^^- 21 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: That was on the building 22 

## count.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. DELASKI: -- the building count, but 2 

## now when you ship to square footage it starts to sync 3 

## up more clearly with the numbers that were being 4 

## shared by manufacturers last week. 5 

## And then on the -- the question is of the 6 

## failure rate. And you know I had shared a paper last 7 

## week -- you know I don't know. I mean I guess I 8 

## would look to the community as to whether this 9 

## reasonable failure rate. 10 

## MR. DOPPEL: You know last week Dick Lloyd 11 

## shared the story of economizers being shipped with 12 

## the unit and related it to a store just down from his 13 

## house where you have the rooftop unit and the 14 

## economizer was still on top where it was shipped with 15 

## the unit, but packing, the shipping is still on it. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: Hopefully it'll lower the 17 

## install costs too, but maybe not. 18 

## MR. STARR: So, I mean I think the reality 19 

## is it's not necessarily that all times people are 20 

## putting ^^^^ well, a couple of things happen. The 21 

## common one is maybe they don't get installed. The 22 

## other thing is they set them so that they won't work,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## whether it's disconnecting or adjusting the settings, 2 

## but a lot of things can happen on these air 3 

## economizers. And actually, Steve Taylor, who is also 4 

## 90.1, has a whole article on the interpolate 5 

## economizers and how they're the worst ones out there 6 

## and they're sensitive to a lot of failures. 7 

## So, I am thinking that there's a certain 8 

## amount of failure. It's basically just not taking 9 

## credit for economizers. So, you've got this fancy 10 

## piece of equipment and you're only taking advantage 11 

## 70 percent of the time, which to me is a reasonable 12 

## thing because there's enough things that can go wrong 13 

## with it. So, rather than taking credit for it 14 

## working 100 percent of the time you only take credit 15 

## for it working 70 percent of the time and you leave 16 

## out analysis. So, to me, I'm wondering -- one thing 17 

## you could do as a sensitivity analysis is you could 18 

## look at "A" and "B," take "B" with a 30 percent 19 

## failure rate at economizers. 20 

## In other words, figure it out with the 21 

## buildings and then leave 30 percent of them out, but 22 

## see what the numbers come up and see whether "A" andCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## "B" are the same number and then it won't make a 2 

## difference in the analysis. 3 

## MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. 4 

## Just to add onto that, you know I'd be 5 

## comfortable with that approach. I think I would 6 

## argue for a higher percentage failure rate. The 7 

## study from last year, a summer study showed failure 8 

## -- it surveyed different studies on economizer 9 

## failures and found failure rates from ^^^^ 43 percent 10 

## was the lowest study they found up to 100 percent 11 

## failure, which was just looking at four economizers 12 

## with I think the medium at around 65 percent failure. 13 

## So, maybe 50 percent is the right number 14 

## in there? Jill's shaking her head at me. 15 

## MR. WESTPALEN: She says more. She wants 16 

## to go with 70 percent failure rate. 17 

## MR. DELASKI: Do you guys have data? I 18 

## mean I know you sell the stuff, but do you know how 19 

## it's installed? I mean they all worked when you sold 20 

## it, right? 21 

## MS. HOOTMAN: By contract too. Yes, I 22 

## do.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. FERNSTROM: So, this is Gary. 2 

## Out there in California, the seagulls 3 

## build their nests in the economizers. 4 

## MR. HURST: So, this is John Hurst with 5 

## Lennox. 6 

## Are you saying we should get an 7 

## environmental benefit for providing safe dwelling and 8 

## mating locations for seagulls? 9 

## (Laughter.) 10 

## MR. FERNSTROM: An environmental award for 11 

## protecting seagulls. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: Who models that? 13 

## MR. DOPPEL: Kristen Hanameyer did a 14 

## study, and she's with the Western Cooling whatever -- 15 

## I forgot what that title is, but I mean maybe her 16 

## study should be used. That was presented at ACEEE 17 

## summer study. 18 

## MS. COUGHLIN: That's what I was citing. 19 

## MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Yes. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. 21 

## Is there another way to look at this from 22 

## maybe the macro level where you look at time series,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## commercial electricity from EIA on a monthly basis? 2 

## If the phenomenon we're trying to describe is that 3 

## over time economizers are being employed in large 4 

## numbers, you'd actually be able to see that in the 5 

## data because I don't think we've seen -- at least 6 

## there hasn't been a lot of standards set for 7 

## commercial AC. So, if we don't see that reduction in 8 

## the load I don't think you can attribute a lot going 9 

## on with economizers over time. 10 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't know if that's 11 

## what we were after here. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I think now the 13 

## conversation was focused to whether they're used or 14 

## they don't work or whatever. So, what I'm trying to 15 

## get at is there should be some macro level data you 16 

## may be able to parse out monthly or whatever and look 17 

## at. I don't know. 18 

## MS. COUGHLIN: This is Katie from LBNL. 19 

## I just want to mention and remind people 20 

## that we did take -- within the AEO there are 21 

## adjustment factors to internal heating and cooling 22 

## loads on new building stock that incorporate thingsCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## like code changes as well as things like internal 2 

## loads that may go up due to more equipment. 3 

## And we used those when we take the 4 

## building loads that are developed from the 1033 5 

## building with the 95 building stock and apply those 6 

## to new buildings. We include this factor. 7 

## So, it is possible -- it's very likely 8 

## that we are already incorporating some affect of -- 9 

## if economizers have become more prevalent or are 10 

## operated more effectively that that's already 11 

## accounted for in the analysis. 12 

## There's not a whole lot of discrete data 13 

## that we could separate out different factors, but I 14 

## think to the extent that the AEO staff who look at 15 

## commercial buildings are probably as expert on this 16 

## as anyone that they would have already incorporated 17 

## that information. 18 

## MR. STARR: You know my thought is it 19 

## possible to do this analysis first and then we could 20 

## start discussing it more? If they come out with the 21 

## same answer -- well, I guess actually we're saying 22 

## that maybe there should be more economize failureCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## than there is necessary, but if it matches up with 2 

## the blast simulations from 2003 or '04 that would be 3 

## one place to get to, and then it would help us have 4 

## the next discussion. 5 

## I mean part of the deal is that -- you 6 

## know Dick was talking about this last week. I was 7 

## like why are economizers better. And so he said, 8 

## well, for instance, they no longer use linkages. 9 

## They're using gears. I hope that they probably fixed 10 

## some of the electronics and the sensor malfunctions 11 

## they typically have. 12 

## So, I think there's implications that some 13 

## of the things that have typically been problems with 14 

## economizers are starting to get better. So, in the 15 

## future, maybe those will be better, but the existing 16 

## one still probably don't work so well. 17 

## MR. WHITWELL: We're talking about new 18 

## installations, right, so with the better economizer 19 

## design? 20 

## MS. COUGHLIN: The blast data don't allow 21 

## us to do much. We have buildings with economizers in 22 

## that simulation output and buildings withoutCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## economizers in that simulation output. There's no 2 

## way to say what the load would've looked like in a 3 

## building with an economizer if it didn't have one. 4 

## MR. STARR: So, I was thinking doing 5 

## nothing with the blast stuff. I was just addressing 6 

## in the post processing of -- well, you put in the 7 

## economizer afterwards and then assume a certain 8 

## failure rate and see what that number comes out and 9 

## see if that matches up with the blast simulations, 10 

## that's what I was getting at. 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: On that approach, I mean 12 

## we were going down that road, right? You know at 13 

## least the thought I had was that we could take a 14 

## non-economized building from blast and replace that 15 

## with this post processing for a functioning 16 

## economizer, take that and replace an economized 17 

## building in blast, but when you start looking at the 18 

## differences in the cooled square footage that 19 

## indicates to me that, again, economizers are being 20 

## used in much larger buildings than in non-economized 21 

## buildings. 22 

## So, it presents a problem then trying toCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## do this substitution, right? Again, maybe if we 2 

## thought about it hard enough and long enough we could 3 

## figure out a way to get something that would you know 4 

## start approximating that, but it's not necessarily 5 

## trivial. 6 

## MR. SHOWS: This is Mike Shows with UL. 7 

## I assume here, based on this discussion, 8 

## that if an economizer is shipped with a unit and it 9 

## fails it's never repaired, right? Because we're 10 

## talking about failure rates, but we're not talking 11 

## about repairing, but I'm sure that if the system 12 

## itself broke it would be repaired. So, I'm just 13 

## wondering what is the assumption here with the 14 

## economizers themselves. 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. I mean if it's 30 16 

## percent failure, right? I mean that 30 percent of 17 

## them are not operating, so there's no assumptions in 18 

## the analysis about them getting repaired down the 19 

## line. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The 30 percent that don't 21 

## operate could be different each year, so that's 22 

## another way of looking at it. You could fix some,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## but then others break. I think that's the 2 

## assumption. 3 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Because that would say that 4 

## we don't sell any parts for them, and we do, in fact, 5 

## sell parts for them. 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: The Kristin Hanameyer 7 

## paper was that -- you know a lot of mechanics who go 8 

## to repair it don't even want to repair it. 9 

## MR. DOPPEL: Well, there's an association 10 

## with ventilation here and economizer. And I think 11 

## that -- I don't know what blast does as far as 12 

## ventilation, but ventilation for a non-economized 13 

## building what's that assumption there? And then if 14 

## there's economized is the same as -- 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I think it was meeting 16 

## minimum mass rate 62, ventilation requirements that 17 

## were in effect at that time. 18 

## MS. WALTNER: So, one thing to note about 19 

## the study is that the failure rates found you know 20 

## ranged from failing completely shut or open to just 21 

## an engineer programming the economizer set points you 22 

## know not optimally. So, there's range of failureCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## rates. So, it might not be fully that the economizer 2 

## isn't functioning. 3 

## But I wanted to understand the Option B a 4 

## little better based on what you were describing. So, 5 

## would the post processing -- so is the idea that you 6 

## would keep the 369 economized buildings and then post 7 

## process on economizers to some of the no-economizer 8 

## buildings and add those together, or is the idea that 9 

## you would -- I thought I'd just heard you say because 10 

## of the square footage difference in the economizer 11 

## buildings versus non-economizer buildings you 12 

## couldn't just sort of scrap. 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, my thought 14 

## processing, and again it was under the assumption 15 

## that there was general discontent about the 16 

## economized buildings is that you would take the 17 

## non-economized buildings, convert them into 18 

## economized buildings, and replace the economized 19 

## buildings in blast. Now, what you're proposing do -- 20 

## MS. WALTNER: That wasn't a proposal. I 21 

## was trying to clarify what you were proposing. 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: No, no, no, what you'reCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## proposing to do is add those buildings instead to the 2 

## existing stock of economized buildings as modeled by 3 

## blast and that certainly can be another option. 4 

## And again, I was going down the path that 5 

## I thought that there was general discontent with how 6 

## blast was modeling economized buildings and that they 7 

## weren't worth much so that they would not be you know 8 

## continued to be analyzed in the analysis. 9 

## MS. WALTNER: Okay, but are there -- in 10 

## the 664 are there large buildings that could be used 11 

## to replace -- 12 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't know. 13 

## MS. WALTNER: Okay. 14 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I don't know, but I 15 

## suspect that you know there's far more small 16 

## buildings in the 664 than ^^^^ you know and far more 17 

## large buildings in the 369 that are economized. 18 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 19 

## I was in a meeting with Dick Lloyd last 20 

## Thursday and Friday, so I know he wasn't 21 

## participating in this, but I'd really like to hear 22 

## what he is --Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: He was on the Friday call 2 

## at least the part where we were talking about 3 

## economizing, and he had things to say about that. 4 

## MR. DOPPEL: Yes. Because we did stop at 5 

## 2:00. 6 

## MR. STARR: I have a generalized question 7 

## about the economizer. So, in the overall energy 8 

## analysis is this going to make -- my sense is that it 9 

## would make a difference, but is it going to make a 10 

## difference, depending on how you model this one way 11 

## or another or is there going to be a huge effect of 12 

## the analysis or do you have a sense for that? 13 

## MS. COUGHLIN: Again, it's the situation 14 

## that will affect the base case as well as the 15 

## standard levels. So, you're going to change the base 16 

## case estimate of energy consumption. So, if you 17 

## think of energy savings a percent of what's available 18 

## at the base case, it could have an effect, but it 19 

## will not have an effect on the relative position of 20 

## different yields. 21 

## MR. STARR: You have more energy to save. 22 

## Right.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Because what I'm 2 

## looking -- well, all we have to look at are these 3 

## examples that I had done previously, right? And so, 4 

## in this specific one for Houston there's not much -- 5 

## I mean .13 out of .163 that's what, 7 percent, 6 or 7 6 

## percent reduction in cooling load? The Baltimore 7 

## example is much larger, 30, 35 percent. Chicago's is 8 

## very large, right, because this particularly large 9 

## office building has a lot of cooling load, even down 10 

## to temperatures beyond zero degrees. So, I guess it 11 

## just depends and I don't -- you know I think if the 12 

## building's larger and it's in a northern climate, 13 

## then perhaps it can have a more significant impact 14 

## than other buildings. 15 

## MR. STARR: So, I just thinking if you 16 

## were able -- perhaps it's not an easy thing to do. 17 

## "A" is already done, right? 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 19 

## MR. STARR: The choice is done, so you 20 

## don't have to do any work there. "B" requires some 21 

## work. And so if you were to come and they were to 22 

## show 3 percent more savings as "A" as opposed to "B"Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## you can just divide it by two and call it one and a 2 

## half. 3 

## I don't know, but you really don't know 4 

## until you run the numbers necessarily what the 5 

## difference is, and I assume that's a lot of work. 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, it is a lot of work. 7 

## MS. COUGHLIN: It may be impossible to 8 

## create a statistically equivalent sample with Greg's 9 

## proposal. So, this opens up a lot more problems than 10 

## it solves. And I think we already have an estimate 11 

## in the difference in cooling load in economized 12 

## versus not economized buildings from just what was 13 

## done with blast. 14 

## So, unless someone can look at that and 15 

## say it's really not credible you know for various 16 

## reasons, it's not ^^- so this is the magnitude of the 17 

## cooling impact. Now, the sales numbers we can look 18 

## at the capacity that's currently in the 1033 19 

## associated with economizers and then again this is 20 

## not the building stock that we're actually working 21 

## with in the LCC. We've sort of scaled that up to 22 

## reflect the current building stock.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## So, we can go through that exercise and 2 

## compare to your sales numbers and see if we should 3 

## maybe adjust the penetration of economizers, and that 4 

## can be done by reweighting the buildings. But again, 5 

## we also have that adjustment I mentioned to the 6 

## cooling loads, which is bringing down the cooling 7 

## loads over time with new construction. So, we 8 

## already have some adjustments and we can make an 9 

## adjustment for the penetration rate of economizers, 10 

## assuming that these buildings represent reasonably 11 

## well what an economized building looks like. 12 

## So, I think the key technical issue is you 13 

## have ^^^^ and we can give you more detailed 14 

## information on a per building basis. If the cooling 15 

## load reduction in an economized building is 16 

## reasonable, given your various experience, then we 17 

## know that we can stick with this. 18 

## MR. STARR: Couldn't you -- well, Dick 19 

## could compare his PNL models with his economized and 20 

## non-economized and see what that percentage is and 21 

## compare it to this percentage and then he would feel 22 

## more comfortable about it, I think. Then he couldCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## say, yes, that's sounds good. I think he would be 2 

## able to do that with the 16 prototypes, although I'm 3 

## not sure how that would go into the sampling frame 4 

## and all that business or if he would need to or not, 5 

## but certainly by the -- these are just by regions 6 

## aren't they, so you don't really have the building 7 

## types split out. 8 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: For reach region, we 9 

## could show principal building activity as long as the 10 

## building sample was high enough. 11 

## MS. COUGHLIN: Again, we don't have actual 12 

## new buildings in the simulation database, so we would 13 

## have to make so assumptions about what -- you know we 14 

## have made those assumptions, so we could see if 15 

## they're any good. So yes, we could take the 16 

## prototypes with and without economizers and look at, 17 

## again, the per square foot difference and the cooling 18 

## load. And we could take our estimates based on this 19 

## with the scaling factors from AEO and compare those. 20 

## Yes. 21 

## MR. STARR: Probably the guy to talk to -- 22 

## I mean I'm okay with it, but I'm probably not the oneCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that would have a problem with it. It would probably 2 

## Dick and his kind of a technical issue. 3 

## MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell with 4 

## Carrier. 5 

## I wasn't on the call late last week, and I 6 

## haven't had a chance to catch up with Dick on the 7 

## outcome of the call and his thoughts on it. I did 8 

## hear that he said, well, let me think about it. So, 9 

## I think maybe we need to get together again and just 10 

## review with Dick and Suzanne and just come to 11 

## agreement on which path we want to go. And maybe 12 

## there's some more modeling that needs to be done, but 13 

## the last that I heard -- so, if you go and you look 14 

## at the blast results, I mean on the building load 15 

## curves. 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So, like in Chicago or 17 

## Baltimore. 18 

## MR. WHITWELL: I mean the discussion that 19 

## I've been involved on this you know we look at the 20 

## blast model and it looks the economizer is not 21 

## operating there, right? 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, this particularCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## building is not economized on the left, so this is 2 

## using the -- 3 

## MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but even the ones 4 

## that we looked at that had the economizer it looked 5 

## like the economizer was not economizing. 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. And I actually 7 

## looked at a handful of buildings myself and there 8 

## were some buildings were it looked like it was 9 

## working and other ones it didn't look like there as 10 

## an economizer at all. 11 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yes, so those are the ones 12 

## that I saw. Granted, I didn't see all of them, so I 13 

## think we need to look at something and maybe it's the 14 

## post processing that you referred to. I think it was 15 

## "B," right? But I think we need to get the group 16 

## together again and come to some consensus. 17 

## But right now you're saying for Path A is 18 

## to address this concern that Bob's describing, which 19 

## is to verify that the economizers are working in some 20 

## portion of the building. So, that seemed to be what 21 

## Dick was raising is that he's having trouble seeing 22 

## where it's working, right? So, if you can verifyCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that economizers are working in the rate of buildings 2 

## that you show that's what's hard to do. 3 

## MS. COUGHLIN: That's what the cooling 4 

## load per square foot is intended to demonstrate. 5 

## MR. WHITWELL: Okay. That's the question 6 

## back to Dick, and the modelers that you guys work 7 

## with; are those numbers reasonable? 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, this might be a good 9 

## spot to ask if we need to form a working group around 10 

## this. So, I know we might want to form one around 11 

## the equipment too. It's basically continuing what 12 

## you guys have already done. 13 

## So, I would suggest that because we do 14 

## have a couple weeks until our next meeting. 15 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I would say that for the 16 

## May 11 and 12th meetings, again, the objective there 17 

## is to present life cycle cost results, right, with 18 

## some modified version of the analysis to take into 19 

## account all these revisions we've been talking about. 20 

## Now, this one on economizing I would say 21 

## is likely not to occur for that meeting just because 22 

## of the level of work that would be required to createCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## an economized sample from a non-economized sample, I 2 

## would say that. I guess following up on what Katie 3 

## said I mean -- and this could be on us too as well is 4 

## to try to verify whether economizers reduce cooling 5 

## load per square foot on some of the basis that we're 6 

## seeing here. That's another thing that should be 7 

## checked, right? And Louis was suggesting looking at 8 

## the 90.1 buildings and seeing if there's a comparable 9 

## value. I don't know if there is one. I kind of 10 

## doubt it because it's such a small building set, 11 

## right, and I don't think that was the mission of that 12 

## activity was to get after that. 13 

## So anyway, for the 11th and 12th, it will 14 

## probably just using Path A. And I mean certainly we 15 

## can continue ^^- 16 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: You could still continue 17 

## the dialogue 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Continue the discussion 19 

## to figure out. If that's not satisfactory to a group 20 

## of the stakeholders, then come up with an alternative 21 

## down the line. 22 

## MR. STARR: The reason I would sayCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## comparing the 90.1 models and what you might find is 2 

## that the overall impacts to the analysis there may 3 

## not be that much change or additional energy savings, 4 

## and so you may not need to do any more work because 5 

## it doesn't matter. And so that's why I was thinking 6 

## if there was a quick way to do it you could just see 7 

## that you know using the blast model you come up with 8 

## this number and this other one you come up with 10 9 

## percent more energy savings. 10 

## And you know maybe that could be 11 

## negotiate, the difference between those two numbers 12 

## or some version of that seems like that's what I'm 13 

## saying is it may not make much difference overall. I 14 

## don't know if that's a quick way to do it or not, 15 

## looking at those two. 16 

## But I can tell you it's not going to be 17 

## the same because it's going to assume a 30 percent 18 

## economizer failure rate in the blast models and in 19 

## the PNL models they assume that they work perfectly, 20 

## so there'll definitely be a difference. 21 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So, I think you heard 22 

## from me that for the 11th and 12th I think if theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## goal is to look at life cycle cost results with a 2 

## revised analysis we're going to be looking at Path A, 3 

## at least for the economizers. And then I think 4 

## concurrently with that doing research, investigation, 5 

## possible development of some sort of modified 6 

## building sample would have to be done, so just trying 7 

## to be realistic. 8 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's appreciated. 9 

## So, we have a half hour. We want to try 10 

## to get through the rest of what Greg has in his -- 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Well, I only had one 12 

## more item here -- well, actually, I forgot about the 13 

## life cycle costs. 14 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. That's another set 15 

## of slides. 16 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: You've heard me talk 17 

## about this before when Detlef was presenting. I 18 

## think we're going to go ahead and do this. Detlef 19 

## can provide revised fan power consumption at elevated 20 

## static pressures. So, we're analyzing that in the 21 

## energy use analysis. 22 

## So, I mean we have some ways to do that.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## We already know that the blast simulations used 2 

## external statics of .75 and 1.25. So, we could run 3 

## with those values and have Detlef provide us with 4 

## those power consumption values and process that in 5 

## our energy use analysis. 6 

## I think without hearing anything else 7 

## that's probably what we'll do, but looking for any 8 

## input of whether or not you think that's a good idea? 9 

## Again, what we try to do in the energy and 10 

## life cycle cost analysis is try to reflect field 11 

## conditions. And what we had done for the NOPR did 12 

## not take this into account, so I think it's an 13 

## appropriate thing to do to try to capture reality 14 

## here. 15 

## So, I'm seeing nods. We'll just go ahead 16 

## and do that. Okay. 17 

## MR. THARP: The question is what static 18 

## are you going to use at reduced stages? So, if 19 

## you're operating at 1.25 stat -- 1.25 inches on high 20 

## stage, what are you going to use for lower stage 21 

## static? 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I'd hope they'd use theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## fan law, or some version of it, 2.3 or some other 2 

## exponent that you'd back down. 3 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef 4 

## Westphalen. 5 

## We would use the standard 34360 guideline 6 

## for what to do with what the static pressure is. You 7 

## know the air flow reduces and then either simplify it 8 

## by using the cubic or go back to the fan tables and 9 

## read through the calculation. 10 

## (Slide.) 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: This next slide sort of 12 

## lays out the proposal for carrying out the revisions 13 

## and providing the revised results to this group. You 14 

## know this has been done for other working group 15 

## meetings, ASRAC working group meetings. So, I think 16 

## we've identified a lot of the methods that we're 17 

## going to go ahead and use. And all of them I hope 18 

## are going to be quantifiable and you'll see the 19 

## things relative to what they were in the NOPR. 20 

## Well, again, for the life cycle cost next 21 

## time we meet in person, which is on the 11th and 22 

## 12th, so soon, very soon. You know, again,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## conducting for sensitivity I think is probably going 2 

## to be important to this group when we get to issue 3 

## which no one's agreeing on, right, to try to figure 4 

## out whether or not that's important issue. So, we'll 5 

## certainly be doing that as well. And if those 6 

## sensitivities turn out to be not only just 7 

## sensitivities, but something that should be primary 8 

## to the analysis, we'll have that incorporated into 9 

## the analysis and present results based upon that as 10 

## the primary set of results. 11 

## I wanted to go over revisions planned for 12 

## the life cycle cost analysis. And again, they've 13 

## been touched on before during Detlef's presentation. 14 

## You heard that there are going to be these multiple 15 

## design paths as a function, whether it's a constant 16 

## air volume or a staged air volume variable air volume 17 

## system. And so we're going to capture that because 18 

## we have this data from CVAC's 2003 that indicates 19 

## what fraction of buildings are constant air volumes 20 

## and what are variable air volume, so we have that 21 

## reflected in the new LCC analysis. 22 

## Again, if the main fraction data that'sCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## applied indicates different fractions of CAV and VAV 2 

## systems, we'll certainly use that to complement the 3 

## data we get from CVAC. But barring any data like 4 

## that, we'll rely in the CVAC data to figure out those 5 

## percentages. 6 

## Again, as you've heard too, I mean when we 7 

## get to a certain efficiency level the existing 8 

## constant air volume system won't accommodate that, so 9 

## there'll have to be changes made to controls and to 10 

## diffusers. And the plan there is to capture those 11 

## costs into the analysis. 12 

## And so again, when you move pass a certain 13 

## efficiency level where there's not a constant air 14 

## volume design, we'll be including these types of 15 

## costs at these higher efficiency levels. 16 

## And then, finally, you heard about the 17 

## conversion curve. Again, written here is that we 18 

## thought it w as going to be happening at Efficiency 19 

## Level 3. Whether it happens earlier or later -- I 20 

## guess that was what the discussion was earlier, but 21 

## whenever it does happen we plan on adding that cost 22 

## into the analysis.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. STARR: Just a quick question on the 2 

## design paths there, so are you going to flip that out 3 

## based on size or tonnage? In other words, the 15 and 4 

## 30 would be the AV paths or what are you thinking? 5 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, for 7 and 15 6 

## there's going to be -- currently, there's going to be 7 

## two design paths for EL1 and EL2. And we'd allocate 8 

## the constant air volume design path to constant air 9 

## volume buildings and the variable air volume path to 10 

## variable air volume buildings. 11 

## And then once we get to that point where 12 

## that design can only be accomplished with a variable 13 

## air volume design or staged air volume design, we 14 

## would start incurring these costs for replacing 15 

## diffusers and controls. 16 

## And now what square footage would be 17 

## affected is going to be based upon the data that we 18 

## get out CVAC. Some of the data we were looking at 19 

## earlier indicated that smaller buildings had a 20 

## smaller percentage of VAV systems, so that effect 21 

## could be more significant for the smaller buildings 22 

## than the 15 tons, but we'll have all those numbersCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## presented by the next time we meet. 2 

## Then with the 30 ton I mean one thought 3 

## that we had -- and again, this is a thought from two 4 

## weeks ago -- is that the baseline itself would be 5 

## variable air volume, right? So, there really 6 

## wouldn't be anything that would have to be done in 7 

## some sense. I mean anything that would have to be 8 

## done in the base case would also have to be done in 9 

## the standard case then, right, if our baseline design 10 

## itself was variable air volume; but we haven't really 11 

## talked about the 30-ton systems that much here. 12 

## So, I don't know, Detlef, you want to 13 

## provide any further comment on that? 14 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 15 

## I think the CVAC's data will show that 16 

## there are some buildings that may, at the 30-ton size 17 

## level, still be constant air volume. So, I think we 18 

## should consider some portion, probably a small 19 

## portion, to be constant air volume. Remember also 20 

## that the 30 ton is intended to represent 20 to 63, so 21 

## in the 20 to 30 range perhaps a few more CAV, but 22 

## properly represented as a 30 ton. The percentagesCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## should reflect the full range of capacities in the 2 

## class. And so, hopefully, the CVAC's data and then 3 

## the other information that we get will provide some 4 

## guidance as to how to make those splits, and then we 5 

## would just have to provide our correlations to the 6 

## appropriate for CVA and VAV installation. 7 

## MR. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer. 8 

## I thought there was some discussion about 9 

## how staged air volume systems would not require any 10 

## change in diffusers. Is that consistent with what -- 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. I mean if you don't 12 

## go below 60 percent full air flow, then yes, you 13 

## wouldn't require a change in diffusers specifically. 14 

## If you go below that, you would. That's our current 15 

## understanding. 16 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef again. 17 

## I mean this is a point that may be should 18 

## be discussed fully because initially we split the 19 

## path staged air volume and constant air volume for 20 

## the 7 and 15 in response to the comments received 21 

## that up through EL1 and EL2 should come in a staged 22 

## air volume version, but then it's not clear.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## You know one would ask why would you even 2 

## consider putting a constant air volume in when you 3 

## could put a staged air volume in, depending on 4 

## whether it achieves better efficiency even at the 5 

## same IEER, depending on the other aspects of the 6 

## energy analysis like the ventilation mode; but if you 7 

## put the ventilation mode at high, it's not going to 8 

## matter any way. So, I don't know if it matters. 9 

## Maybe we can take a look at that both ways and see if 10 

## it does make a difference. 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. In remembering 12 

## that input that we received last week, I even thought 13 

## I heard that maybe even up through EL3 you wouldn't 14 

## have to make any diffuser change because at that 15 

## design level you're not going below 60 percent air 16 

## flow, at least for 15 tons. 17 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: 15 ton, that's correct. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: So, you wouldn't be 19 

## seeing this until 3.1 or 4. 20 

## MR. STARR: So, I have a question. So, I 21 

## would say for a unit -- and I was thinking about a 22 

## constant air volume or one where you'd have a stagedCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## one. You might use a BFD. So, typically, with the 2 

## unit that has two stages or you know two fan speed, 3 

## the one full speed or then at 66 percent and so that 4 

## corresponds with low stage cooling and high stage 5 

## cooling. But then a third place that would be handy 6 

## to have is the ventilation, and the only way to do 7 

## that would be probably through the use of a BFD, but 8 

## you wouldn't have to change your diffusers and do all 9 

## that. You' just run a lower air flow. 10 

## And so, what I'm wondering -- I don't know 11 

## and the manufacturers do people actually do that 12 

## because it would seem like a cheaper way to do things 13 

## than going through and putting in a VAV system in 14 

## order to run your lower air flow, but I mean if you 15 

## spend a lot of time in ventilation mode it seems like 16 

## a pretty handy thing to have. 17 

## MS. HOOTMAN: What, the variable speed on? 18 

## MR. STARR: The ventilation mode so that 19 

## you're running at 40 percent instead of 66 percent. 20 

## MS. HOOTMAN: (Off mike). 21 

## MR. STARR: Well, most of the people that 22 

## are buying a VFD are definitely hooking to AV boxesCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## for sure, right, is that what you're saying? 2 

## MS. HOOTMAN: No. 3 

## MR. STARR: Why not the two stage where 4 

## you have an actual VFD and you're running the hole 5 

## from 25 to definitely going and hooking up to the AV 6 

## boxes? 7 

## MS. HOOTMAN: So, Jill Hootman from Trane. 8 

## I think in answering Louis's comment if 9 

## you've got a VFD on it you're likely are a VAV, yes. 10 

## You're not putting a VFD on there. They're too 11 

## expensive just to run it at constant volume or you 12 

## know likely. I'm just saying likely. 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Again, what we do in the 14 

## life cycle cost analysis in terms of capturing costs 15 

## for diffusers, controls, curves, that type of thing 16 

## is going to be dictated a lot by what the engineering 17 

## analysis provides to us in terms of what can be 18 

## accomplished with staged air flow as opposed to fully 19 

## variable and that type of thing. And also dictating 20 

## footprint as well is whether or not a conversion 21 

## curve is required at that efficiency level. 22 

## You have to remember -- I mean Detlef justCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## signed up earlier before the break to do EL2.5 and 2 

## EL3.05 as well, so there's a lot of work here, right, 3 

## one of the reasons I didn't want to necessarily 4 

## promise for the 11th and 12th this alternative to the 5 

## economizer path. 6 

## You know these are the parking lot issues 7 

## that we provide last Friday. There's probably more 8 

## on the list now, but maybe the thing to do is try to 9 

## be comprehensive here with the parking lot issues 10 

## that we want to carry forward. And I can just type 11 

## them here as we go along. 12 

## The first one's still an issue, right? 13 

## MR. WESTPHALEN: I think on the first one 14 

## we concluded that we'll be doing both designs and 15 

## CBD, depending on information we get exactly how that 16 

## would split. 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I think you heard your 18 

## proposal on external static pressure and I think 19 

## we're done with that one, so that's not necessarily a 20 

## parking lot issue any more. 21 

## On the conversion curve, I think 22 

## everyone's sort of in agreement about the .2 inches.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I think along with what we're doing to address the 2 

## field external static pressure maybe this is resolved 3 

## as well. It seems like it could be. 4 

## MR. STARR: So, you know with the curve 5 

## it's really the external and it's the internal, so 6 

## the total 7 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 8 

## MR. STARR: It's the relative magnitude of 9 

## those two. So, I guess if you do Item 2, then Item 3 10 

## is not so much a concern; is that what you're saying. 11 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes. Because if we're 12 

## running at a higher external static pressure, I mean 13 

## the way we would handle it is just by adding another 14 

## two-tenths. 15 

## MR. STARR: So, then you're comparing 16 

## apples to apples. Okay. 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 18 

## MR. STARR: I was suggesting to adjust it 19 

## down. 20 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. 21 

## MR. STARR: Okay. 22 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I think you heard what,Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## at least for the 11th and 12th what we're going to do 2 

## in terms of economizing. And you know maybe you'll 3 

## talk to Dick and get further information on his 4 

## proposal or that he maybe can bring to this group. 5 

## MS. HOOTMAN: And we're going to have 6 

## these by tomorrow or sometime this week you said? 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, they're already in 8 

## the docket now. This packet that was handed today is 9 

## in the docket. 10 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 11 

## MR. STARR: You know what I was going to 12 

## suggest, talking to Dick, that perhaps we could have 13 

## a meeting mid-week or something -- well, something on 14 

## the webinar or something like that, but then if you 15 

## didn't have a problem with they could start working 16 

## on it right away rather than waiting until May 11 or 17 

## maybe May 11 is not that far away. 18 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: May 11 is not that far 19 

## away. 20 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, the top here is do we 21 

## want to create a little subgroup to explore this 22 

## rather than the whole committee.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 2 

## So, I was going to ask if there was like a 3 

## partial step. It's like you either do a whole 4 

## economizer, one this way or that way, is there a 5 

## partial step to see what the difference? 6 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I've struggled to try to 7 

## figure that out. You know some of the ideas, and 8 

## they're kind of cocky-mammy maybe. I haven't really 9 

## discussed them with anyone else's is look more 10 

## closely at the economized buildings and blast. 11 

## Again, that would take some effort because you're 12 

## going through over 350 buildings, right, and closely 13 

## looking -- you almost have to plod every single load 14 

## versus dry volt temp you know for that building and 15 

## eyeball it and kind of see if this makes sense. Now, 16 

## you could probably develop an algorithm to do that 17 

## check automatically for you. And maybe there's some 18 

## sort of ground rules that say, hey, this one's okay 19 

## and if it doesn't do this then it's not okay. And if 20 

## that's the case apply this post-processing method, 21 

## right? 22 

## Again, I'm talking a little bit off theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## top of my head here, but that would be one idea. 2 

## MR. DOPPEL: So, we could do a subgroup, 3 

## as you were suggesting, that would include Dick and 4 

## then come maybe in the next couple days to reach a 5 

## conclusion and then how would in that subgroup -- 6 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, you'd report back to 7 

## the working group here. 8 

## MR. DOPPEL: Then you get into that 9 

## approval, then we would have to meet to approve them 10 

## to go forward. So, they need the approval to go 11 

## forward. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So, you know we 13 

## would set up a webinar of this committee. So, we 14 

## could set up the subgroup and then I don't know how 15 

## much time -- I mean these guys have to be honest with 16 

## how much time you can ^^^^ 17 

## MS. COUGHLIN: The more subgroups we do 18 

## the less time we have to actually do work, so I want 19 

## to make sure everybody's clear that the economizer 20 

## issue changes the total heat removed in the base 21 

## case, right? It has no affect on the relative 22 

## performance of different ELs. So I think -- you knowCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## my own sense is any issue that does affect the 2 

## relative performance of different ELs should have a 3 

## higher priority for the technical team because that 4 

## affects the decision criteria. This is something 5 

## that's going to affect kind of our overall estimate 6 

## of energy savings and probably -- again, I mean we're 7 

## looking at something that's probably, at most, 5 to 8 

## 10 percent. 9 

## We don't even know the sign. Because 10 

## there was no reason to say that we're not 11 

## overestimating how well economizers perform, right, 12 

## so I think it's unclear at this point what the 13 

## priority on the basis of actual impacts on the 14 

## results is of this issue and it may be again to come 15 

## back to it in the next meeting. We'll do the best we 16 

## can to provide a quantitative ranking of the things 17 

## that have been discussed and see what additional 18 

## effort we want to put into it. 19 

## MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel. 20 

## So, would you prioritize these that are 21 

## listed on the board in a different way than this? 22 

## MS. COUGHLIN: No, it's at the bottom andCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## that's where it belongs. 2 

## MR. DOPPEL: How about the three above it, 3 

## though? And are you saying that those -- 4 

## MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I think that looks 5 

## reasonable to me. Yes. 6 

## MR. DOPPEL: Do we need a decision on 7 

## those before you -- 8 

## MS. HOOTMAN: We've already agreed on. 9 

## MR. DOPPLE: Okay. Then they're not in 10 

## the parking lot, are they? 11 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We still need to do the 12 

## work. Let's be clear we still need to do some work. 13 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Yes, it's not done yet. 14 

## We just decided that this is how we're going to deal 15 

## with it. 16 

## MR. DOPPLE: What are you doing? 17 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: I'm looking for a 18 

## checkmark. 19 

## (Sidetalk.) 20 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Red indicates it's taken 21 

## care of. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: So, can I just maybeCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## propose that we have enough stuff to work on. And 2 

## then we get the stuff we've talked about today, and I 3 

## know that that last issue is still near and dear to 4 

## some people's hearts. There's some difference of 5 

## opinion on what difference it will make in the 6 

## analysis, if at all. Frankly, I'm more concerned 7 

## with the policy decision that this group is going to 8 

## try to negotiate. And if my technical people are 9 

## telling me that they think spending a couple weeks on 10 

## economizers may not have an impact on that, it'll 11 

## change the effected sayings for those options. 12 

## It's an important thing, but maybe it's 13 

## not our most important order of business so that we 14 

## kind of move forward. I'm not saying we won't do 15 

## some work later on that, obviously, but to just to 16 

## prioritize the workload let's move forward with what 17 

## we've identified. We can set up a webinar here and 18 

## now if we think an interim meeting would be something 19 

## we should do, or should we just let these guys get to 20 

## work and come back on May 11th? 21 

## Anyone have ideas? 22 

## MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I mean they've got a lot of work to do, 2 

## and we come back on May 11. I wonder a little bit 3 

## you know are we going to be able to use two full days 4 

## at that time? We've got two full days booked. I 5 

## presume if we finish earlier then we'll just finish 6 

## early. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 8 

## MR. DELASKI: A day probably isn't enough. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And I think that's 10 

## where get people home earlier on earlier flights. 11 

## Yes, I think you can count on that. 12 

## MR. DELASKI: There might be other issues. 13 

## We didn't go through to see if there are other 14 

## parking issues here. I'm not sure we want to at this 15 

## late hour. I assume you guys have pretty complete 16 

## notes. 17 

## The one issue that I think is a pretty 18 

## significant issue out there, I wished we'd left some 19 

## ambiguity, is at what point do you apply the 20 

## conversion curve costs? We had some discussion 21 

## around that you know and how does that applied? 22 

## That's a pretty big adder. You know someone said itCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## amounted to a thousand dollars. And when that kicks 2 

## in that's really going to affect the curve, 3 

## potentially, so that's one area where I don't know 4 

## that we've resolved that issue today. 5 

## You guys are going to do your analysis and 6 

## come back to us. That's an important issue. 7 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: That particular one 8 

## because it's an installation cost -- it's an input 9 

## the LCC model. It's an easy one to handle, very easy 10 

## to handle a sensitivity. We can maybe handle it in 11 

## real time, right, at the next set of meetings. 12 

## I mean if Detlef comes back and says, 13 

## okay, this is the point at which a conversion curve 14 

## is needed according to the data I'm looking at and 15 

## other people feel, wait a minute, it should be 16 

## earlier or later, you know that's something we can on 17 

## the spot I just think make that modification and see 18 

## what the result and impact is. 19 

## MR. STARR: I was also thinking, though, 20 

## for the conversion curve the sheet metal guys should 21 

## be pretty good ones to talk to about pricing because 22 

## they make those as well, and also pressure drops too.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## I mean they're not here any more, but they would be 2 

## seems like good people to talk about that as well. 3 

## MR. ROSENQUIST: Anything else cross your 4 

## mind, Andrew, about the parking lot issues? 5 

## MR. DELASKI: Well, we had the legal 6 

## issues, but I put those back. I think that's outside 7 

## the scope of the folks in Eric's -- I don't know. 8 

## There are other things that folks in our caucus, 9 

## maybe not parking lot, but ambiguous on some level. 10 

## And Jill, on the costs you talked about -- 11 

## is HRI collecting the economizer sales? 12 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Shipments, yes. 13 

## MR. DELASKI: Shipments I meant to say, 14 

## yeah. 15 

## MS. HOOTMAN: (Off mike.) 16 

## MR. DELASKI: So that would come in with 17 

## the data? That's all I have. 18 

## MS. HOOTMAN: (Off mike.) 19 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: That's a good question. 20 

## When we were discussing the meeting, and I read 21 

## through this I said, hey, you know what, it doesn't 22 

## say anything about Mike didn't even show up to theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## meeting, so that's an interesting development there. 2 

## No. 3 

## (Laughter.) 4 

## MS. HOOTMAN: (Off mike.) 5 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: No one's really focused on 6 

## that really. From what I understand there was the 7 

## one issue that was brought up at the public meeting. 8 

## Yes. And so you know I haven't sifted through 9 

## anything, other than we heard that issue. I don't 10 

## know what you all discussed. It sounds like you 11 

## focused more on the ruling side. 12 

## You know certainly if that point is the 13 

## only point then I'm just going to simplify it as 14 

## quickly that should it be 82? Should it be 81? You 15 

## know that to me that's negotiation. 16 

## MR. DELASKI: Well, there were some 17 

## technical issues that were raised by the 18 

## manufacturers as to having to do with when are you 19 

## incurring the costs for condensing and condensing 20 

## material changes that aren't incorporated in the 21 

## analysis, so I don't know when the time is for that 22 

## to be -- for you guys to lay that out for theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## committee consideration. 2 

## Now, whether we have time next time or -- 3 

## I kind of agree that there's a lot of -- air 4 

## conditioner we don't' want to detract from this 5 

## important analysis, but I would like if we could give 6 

## an hour to look at the issue. 7 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we should set aside 8 

## a time on the agenda for next time. Actually, we got 9 

## through more than I thought we would today. 10 

## MR. DELASKI: Do it right now. That's a 11 

## joke. 12 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: I know you were joking. 13 

## You notice how I didn't laugh. 14 

## (Laughter.) 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The worst joke you've ever 16 

## told me. 17 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 18 

## I was talking to Steven Rosenstock this 19 

## morning of EEI and he wants to make sure that you all 20 

## seize the equal opportunity for improvement that 21 

## electricity does. 22 

## MR. DELASKI: Condensing levels SteveCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## wants. 2 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: We'll draw up an agenda 3 

## for the May 11 and 12th, and make sure we put a few 4 

## hours down for that. We're not overlooking it at 5 

## all. 6 

## MR. DELASKI: John, when do you think 7 

## we'll see that agenda? I want to make sure we've got 8 

## the right people lined up at least on the phone. 9 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So, let's give these 10 

## guys some time to do some work and we'll be able to 11 

## more fully understand where we are with some numbers, 12 

## but yes, we'll pass it out at least several days 13 

## before the meeting. 14 

## You'll be happy to know I put this agenda 15 

## together last night at 4:30. And Eileen got me her 16 

## slides at 4:45. And I still made it to the hockey 17 

## game and dinner beforehand by 5:45, so we made it. 18 

## (Sidetalk.) 19 

## MS. HOFFMAN: The Capitals. They're doing 20 

## very well. 21 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, then the other thing 22 

## is the facilitators are going to put together theCommercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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## ground rules and those types of files, process-type 2 

## files. We'll put them out there. We have the share 3 

## point. We'll get that set up and we'll communicate 4 

## all this to the members and the alternates. I've 5 

## already gotten a few emails. Thank you for those 6 

## who've submitted those. 7 

## And then I guess just to finish up today 8 

## we usually reserve public comment time, but you know 9 

## I'm looking around and the public already went public 10 

## on us, but thank you for everyone. I think today 11 

## went very well. I think it bodes well for us making 12 

## our deadlines. It's going to be a lot of work, but I 13 

## think today -- 14 

## MS. HOOTMAN: (Off mike.) 15 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: The subgroups I think 16 

## we've decided we're going to do our work now and 17 

## tackle on May 11. 18 

## MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. We'll look forward 19 

## to seeing you on May 10 and 11th. And if there's a 20 

## webinar in between, we'll get back to you. And it's 21 

## been a pleasure. Thank you. 22 

## MR. CYMBALSKY: May 11 and 12th.Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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### 1 

## (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at 5:00 2 

## p.m.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 300 **A a.m**  1:12 59:11 66:17 **abides** 54:13 **able** 39:13 40:2 53:15 ,15 82:22 84:1 94:9 118:14 165:8 181:13 ,19 194:1 204:14 205:13 218:20 236:17 255:4,16 264:16 267:2 292:3 297:10 **absence** 37:21 132:7 **absolute** 121:7 204:19 247:3 ,10 247:11 **absolutely** 52:9 93:22 **abstention** 52:10 **AC** 152:4 255:7 **AC's** 96:2 **AC/FURNACE** 1:2 **ACCA** 3:11 44:22 46:15 48:12 56:9 57:1 59:7 **accept** 35:1 **acceptable** 129:12 207:4 **acceptance** 21:3 **accepted** 184:21 **accepting** 23:9 68:6 77:17 **access** 10:15 26:16 90:6 172:9 **accommodate** 171:22 277:8 **accommodating** 153:14 **accommodations** 172:8 **accomplish** 118:4 **accomplished** 278:12 283:18 **accomplishing** 118:5 **account** 39:22 184:12 190:18 195:15 206:14 226:20,22 270:19 274:12 **accounted** 256:11 **ACEEE** 41:3 42:5 98:13 102:9 139:15 254:16 **achieve** 22:9 190:20 **achieved** 120:14

**achieves** 281:4 **achieving** 119:16 **acknowledge** 129:8 **act** 16:9 28:2 29:2 111:17 **acted** 27:17 **acting** 38:19 **action** 54:3 68:22 69:3 110:17 111:11 ,16 132:15 218:18 **activities** 27:14 **activity** 267:9 271:12 **actual** 27:8 55:22 75:14 118:21 161:18 180:16 211:22 222:15 ,16 226:16 267:11 283:4 289:13 **adapter** 159:1 160:10 **adapters** 170:21 **add** 62:22 64:9 103:2 160:1 ,9 168:9 208:19 209:10 213:19 253:4 261:8 262:1 **added** 104:15 161:11 202:10,12 **adder** 180:7 183:22 292:22 **adding** 164:6 213:20,22 277:21 285:13 **addition** 37:22 102:18 ,19 159:7 183:8 208:20 228:8 **additional** 105:12 110:3 ,6 114:15 140:18 158:12,18 160:5 161:18 163:17 202:8 208:17 209:3 ,5 213:2 215:9 272:3 289:17 **address** 25:7 26:15 29:22 65:7 74:2 113:10 115:7 269:18 285:1 **addressed** 17:4 47:4 73:22 196:22 202:18 227:4 **addressing** 128:7 168:10 170:2,3 ,16 258:5 **adequate** 209:5 **adjust** 266:3 285:18 **adjusted** 156:2 **adjusting** 252:1 **adjustment** 125:7 169:21 255:21 266:5 ,9 **adjustments** 266:8 **administrative** 14:6 14:8 **adopt** 77:5 **adoption** 69:3 **advance** 104:10 **advantage** 173:9,12 252:10 **advantageous** 137:20 **advantages** 195:17 **adverse** 68:22 **advice** 19:1 26:7 30:4 **advising** 28:6 **advisors** 18:18 **advisory** 12:19 27:6 **advocates** 52:22 53:2 **AEO** 255:20 256:14 267:19 **affect** 26:14 29:3 133:11 136:14 163:12,17 183:11 190:13 223:20 229:21 231:13 ,14 231:18 248:4 256:8 263:14 288:21 289:1 ,5 293:2 **affiliation** 8:19 **afternoon** 79:19 80:16 87:12 156:16 **agencies** 27:3 **agency** 5:2 15:7 ,15 26:4 103:7 **agenda** 17:7 19:13 100:12 296:8 297:2,7 ,14 **aggressive** 4:7 101:18 **agnostic** 91:2 **ago** 14:20 15:14 138:7 ,8 139:16 197:12 279:4 **agree** 24:5 28:16 34:10,13 35:3 ,18 37:14 56:10 69:14 104:16 118:21 146:9 148:13 ,20 154:16 171:18 174:8 181:20,22 189:4 200:12 206:19 209:6 296:3 **agreed** 17:7 20:6 54:4 104:18 226:13 290:8 **agreeing** 18:7 54:2 137:14 276:3 **agreement** 40:20 57:20 63:14 64:16 67:20 69:2,20 78:3 104:14 223:8 268:11 284:22 **agrees** 23:17 67:11 67:20 69:2,20 **ahead** 15:15 24:15 36:6 96:15 168:11 179:16 230:16 273:18 274:15 275:17 **AHRI** 111:22 155:12,20 **AHRs** 131:4 **aiming** 117:4 **air** 1:3 ,4 3:6 6:20 7:10,14 8:21 23:16 55:8 57:19 95:21 101:6 112:19,21 113:2 120:18 123:19,19 123:22 125:5 128:10 131:17 143:21 ,22 144:5 ,7 144:12,13 ,15 ,16 144:17 ,18 145:10 146:21 147:6,6,15 147:17 ,18 149:15 150:16 151:4 152:2,11 ,17 ,20,22 153:6 156:5 159:10,15 177:5 181:8 183:8 189:6 189:11 ,18 192:6,8 198:5 ,12 210:9 225:11 ,15 ,16 226:12 238:9,11 239:5 241:18 242:7 247:6,8,11 247:12 252:2 275:7 276:16,16 276:16,19,20

277:8,13 278:8,8 278:9,10,13 ,13 279:5 ,10,17 ,19 280:9,12,19,19,22 281:2,3 ,15 ,22 282:9,14 283:18 296:3 **Air-Conditioning** 2:16,18 **airport** 44:15 48:4 **algorithm** 287:16 **Alison** 3:4 8:11 111:9 **Alliance** 7:6 **Allied** 3:6 8:21 189:3 198:3 **allocate** 155:8,14 278:7 **allow** 36:6 40:17 42:14,15 43:14 46:17 153:14 162:20 257:20 **allowed** 22:19 33:21 42:16 46:8,19 48:22 62:3 63:3 **allowing** 22:20 **allows** 162:14 **alluded** 125:5 **alluding** 117:14 **altering** 216:6 **alternate** 19:19 34:2 34:3 ,7 ,21 35:8,16 35:17 36:1 ,10,19 37:15 ,20 38:6,13 39:21 42:6,10,21 60:15 61:16 82:20 86:6 88:7 89:9 93:21 **alternate's** 90:6 **alternates** 18:11 25:4,5 ,5 ,9 33:15 33:16,21 34:8,13 35:1 ,4,5 ,6,20 36:6 36:15 37:9 59:18 61:2,9,10,12 79:3 82:12 298:4 **alternative** 31:17 ,21 32:10 45:6 63:9 73:10 271:20 284:4 **alternatives** 31:9,10 45:6 **ambient** 190:11 ,13 191:5 ,7 ,10,15 **ambiguity** 37:20Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

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283:14,17 291:6 293:5 295:21 296:5 **analytical** 106:8 127:9 **analytically** 80:18 **analytics** 96:17 **analyze** 140:1 215:2 **analyzed** 114:14 246:7 262:8 **analyzing** 273:20 **Anderson** 2:6 8:2 9:12,12 **Andrew** 2:9 9:18,19 10:17 ,19 12:21 ,22 35:2 41:12 44:8 47:2 55:18 65:10 75:9 83:5 93:15 99:20 104:13 106:11 115:5 156:22 172:13 174:8 198:4 211:20 215:20 245:8 249:22 291:22 294:4 **anomolized** 131:20 **anonymous** 81:17 **answer** 23:2 104:5 129:22 141:9 142:16 148:2 157:2 214:4,11 ,13 256:21 **answering** 283:8 **answers** 104:10 157:3 **anti-backsliding** 99:4 105:3 **anticipated** 103:11 **anybody** 21:9 69:14 106:17 128:2,16 158:13 185:22 202:16 212:14 218:1 225:19 **anybody's** 126:10 **anyway** 57:20 75:13 147:7 187:9 190:5 233:21 246:18 271:13 **anyways** 132:5 **apparently** 169:1 **Appeals** 9:5 ,7 **appear** 206:15 **Appearances** 2:1 **appears** 33:13 **appendix** 248:17 **Applause** 64:18

**apples** 205:10,10 285:16,16 **Appliance** 2:9,10 6:9 10:19 27:6 **application** 152:20 **applications** 177:8 194:18 **applied** 167:19 176:2 247:22 277:1 292:21 **applies** 192:6 **apply** 159:3 163:8 163:14 164:2 174:16 183:22 234:8 240:4 256:5 287:20 292:19 **applying** 234:19,20 **appoint** 76:5 **appointed** 28:5 38:7 38:14 **apportion** 153:12 **appreciated** 273:8 **approach** 75:6 98:16 102:12,13 127:2 193:17 198:16 211:4,17 212:18 253:5 258:11 **approaches** 211:7 244:12 **appropriate** 114:5 130:7 ,9 159:16 166:2 274:13 280:6 **appropriately** 130:5 **approval** 288:9,10 **approve** 288:9 **approximating** 259:4 **April** 1:16 **arduous** 177:4 **area** 86:13 125:12 125:13 128:10 169:12,14 193:9 226:18 243:18 293:3 **areas** 189:8 198:17 234:11 ,15 243:9 **argue** 55:9 253:6 **arguing** 209:11 ,14 **argument** 133:5 136:9 204:2 225:20,20 **arises** 62:21 **arithmetic** 140:7 **Arlington** 89:18 93:12 **arm** 16:3 **arose** 46:18 **arrived** 9:18 **article** 252:4 **Asheville** 48:13 **Asia** 79:7 **aside** 175:19 296:7 **asked** 22:3 163:6 203:4 213:8 **asking** 103:3 148:21 149:14 **aspect** 195:5 197:14 201:5 **aspects** 109:7 124:10 178:6 281:5 **ASRAC** 1:3 9:9 11:1 12:4,5 ,18,20 12:21 13:1 ,4,21 14:3 21:1 23:1 ,18 36:20 43:19 49:17 56:15 67:6,11 103:19 152:16 275:15 **assessment** 154:8 170:11 202:1 **assigned** 107:14 **assignment** 231:21 **assist** 76:10 **associated** 123:2 157:20 158:11 194:17 210:19 243:6 265:19 **association** 260:9 **assume** 102:17 117:2 137:16 141:4 185:6,7 ,8 186:2 233:12,12 248:21 249:1 258:7 259:7 265:5 272:17 ,19 292:15 **assumed** 191:4 229:17 250:5 **assumes** 248:14 249:8 **assuming** 15:3 61:3 167:13 190:12 192:8,22 205:19 212:17 233:2 239:6 247:8 266:10 **assumption** 58:18 232:10 235:9 236:21 ,22 247:7 259:13 260:2,13

261:14 **assumptions** 127:7 248:3 259:17 267:13 ,14 **Atlanta** 94:10 **attack** 174:15 **attempt** 34:5 37:15 87:7 106:15 215:1 **attend** 37:16 86:6 **attendance** 37:18 **attended** 34:6 **attention** 30:2,7 65:6 77:11 214:7 **attributable** 105:5 **attribute** 160:18 255:8 **auction** 54:22 **audience** 8:2 40:16 **authority** 75:14 **authorized** 39:21 74:18 **automatically** 287:17 **AV** 278:4 282:22 283:5 **availability** 82:13 91:2 130:14 **available** 79:8,19 85:22 88:13 93:6 94:5 108:5 142:12 219:13 222:16 263:17 **Avenue** 1:9 **average** 115:9,10 211:16 216:18 245:21 **averaging** 222:17 **aversion** 78:19 **avoid** 48:11 125:17 **award** 254:10 **aware** 18:20 28:20 206:13 **Awareness** 2:9,10 10:20 **aways** 246:3 **awkward** 94:3 **B B**  194:22 195:2,3 206:11 249:6,19 252:18 ,18 253:1 261:3 264:20,22 269:15 **BAB** 148:16,17 149:7 **back** 4:6 8:18 12:5Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 302 12:12,15 18:11 25:16,18 27:18 30:12 33:10 37:8 42:6 46:7 49:6 55:21 59:8,21 60:3 62:16,17 65:12 73:21 74:21 75:13 76:18 78:4 81:2 82:17 85:19 87:11 91:16 95:19 96:8,12 100:18 104:1 106:22 112:6 115:14 122:18 ,19 125:18 132:15 133:11 156:9,12,17 ,20 157:1 ,18 164:17 183:19 187:21 190:6 191:18 ,19 196:17 203:13 204:16 209:14,20 213:15 214:5 219:20 220:3 221:1 222:7 228:12,14,15 232:3 270:6 275:2 275:8 288:6 289:15 291:20 292:2 293:6,12 294:6 298:20 **backed** 229:14 **background** 11:3 31:3 96:1 **bad** 48:4 72:18 227:22 **bail** 143:7 **balance** 133:17 181:13 **balancer** 179:20 **Baltimore** 247:18 247:19 264:6 268:17 **Bantle** 2:5 4:22 5:13 5:14 20:2 24:20 24:22 25:22 30:12 37:3 39:12 40:3 40:21 41:11 ,20 42:8 46:2,6,13 47:2,8,17 49:4 50:13 ,16 51:15 ,18 53:5 ,11 ,17 57:21 58:10 59:2,15 ,20 60:3 ,9,14 61:9,20 61:22 62:4,21 63:15 ,19,22 64:5 64:20 65:1 ,6,9 66:8,15 72:5

73:10 77:6,10,14 77:21 78:7 ,10,17 79:2,6,11 ,22 80:3 82:5 ,10 84:22 85:3 86:1 ,15 ,18 86:21 87:3 ,19 88:5 ,15 ,18 90:8 91:4,13 92:5 ,13 92:16,18 93:11 94:7 106:19,22 156:16 **Barkas** 2:4 4:21 **barring** 186:8 277:3 **base** 107:7 116:19 129:13 131:10 175:1 ,7 184:13 243:4 263:14,15 263:18 279:8 288:20 **baseball** 5:5 **based** 24:12 34:11 49:7 98:16 107:5 107:10 108:14 109:2 110:4 115:21 120:3 122:4,5 123:9 128:8 130:14 132:9,16,18 135:14 137:5 140:3 ,7 156:2,5 ,8 172:19 179:8 180:18 184:7 190:9 213:9 215:2 222:14 223:22 229:17 230:14 232:5 235:11 259:7 261:4 267:18 276:9 278:3 ,17 **baseline** 33:19 98:15 124:2,3 ,6 128:22 129:2 132:19,21 133:14 135:12 137:2,8,12 137:16 139:17 141:13 ,19 157:12 157:13 204:1 279:4,9 **bases** 125:16 133:13 **basic** 32:16 172:22 196:21 ,22 **basically** 5:6 15:5 16:9,12 26:20 28:8 95:4,18 96:3 151:17 158:18 159:2,14 160:4

185:6 188:11 191:12 201:12 211:1 222:19 231:7 232:19 235:1 239:4 252:8 270:11 **basing** 112:8 119:21 157:15 165:11 193:17 211:4 **basis** 48:19 71:16 104:3 130:22 163:15 165:13 169:3 245:19 246:9 247:3 255:1 266:14 271:5 289:13 **batch** 169:14 **bathroom** 43:3 **Battaglia** 2:7 8:13 8:13 219:15 ,19 224:8 **Beach** 247:17 **Beard** 26:6 **beginning** 33:11 78:20 91:13 **behaved** 16:16 41:9 **believe** 14:10 21:4 41:22 43:9 53:12 74:14 78:14 91:7 109:8 123:20 225:9 230:2 **belongs** 290:1 **belt** 229:19 230:10 237:13 247:9,12 247:13 ,21 **benefit** 13:8,8 80:15 177:19 254:7 **Berkeley** 3:4 8:9,12 9:11 229:6 236:14 **best** 11:10 18:2 22:3 24:2 31:10 39:2 86:5 115:11 121:3 121:7 ,8 209:1 228:10 289:15 **better** 15:8 31:20 44:19 55:16 84:7 88:21 101:4 107:19 112:21 120:21 203:21 204:10 211:16 218:11 232:13 236:9 257:7 ,14,15 257:18 261:4 281:4 **beyond** 37:14 177:22 231:14 264:10 **BFD** 282:1 ,7 **bias** 161:14 **big** 10:7 25:12 45:13 47:13 70:5 146:1 148:5 149:11 164:8 173:12 175:8 208:6,10 214:19 219:6 223:2 243:19 246:8 247:7 292:22 **bigger** 146:2 158:20 169:18 ,19 171:5 197:22 207:19 **biggest** 149:19 150:5 **billion** 248:1 ,2 **bit** 13:6 25:17 32:18 67:3 69:13 70:12 98:19 108:18 124:15 127:18 138:19 140:11 142:13 151:8 154:6,14 157:5 176:14 181:19 184:9 191:22 192:12 195:19 206:1 211:19,21 215:22 216:6 237:9 241:12 287:22 292:2 **blank** 146:12 **blast** 90:7 169:1 229:11 234:17 238:3 ,20 242:1 244:17 245:9,14 245:18 246:1 ,7 ,20 248:9,16 249:3 ,8 249:17 257:2,20 258:5 ,9,14,17 260:11 261:19 262:3 ,6 265:13 268:14,20 272:7 272:18 274:1 287:10 **blasting** 244:13 **block** 53:2 58:5 ,6 83:17 **blocker** 31:13 ,18,19 32:7 ,21 **blocks** 55:8 **blowing** 144:8 **board** 77:18 118:6 235:14 289:21 **Bob** 8:4 43:3 44:2,3

44:16 48:9 74:22 108:10 111:19 132:17 170:16 171:18 175:21 268:3 **Bob's** 269:18 **bodes** 298:11 **body** 17:10 **bogged** 125:17 **book** 41:19 83:17 87:1 90:13 **booked** 91:5 95:4 292:4 **borne** 148:3 **bottom** 124:19 191:1 201:13 245:21 289:22 **bound** 244:7 **bounds** 102:6,16 **box** 148:18 194:21 194:22,22,22 195:1 ,2,3 ,3 206:11 ,11 207:19 208:1 211:12,13 214:19 249:12 **boxes** 153:3 282:22 283:6 **break** 17:18 32:1 66:10,12,16 85:6 100:15 156:14 167:7 ,7 ,9 221:18 228:14,17 260:1 284:1 **breaks** 17:15 ,16 149:4 **breakthroughs** 198:19 **brief** 11:1 ,2 156:19 **briefed** 19:19 35:12 35:14,17 37:11 ,17 38:21 61:12,14 **briefing** 24:16 29:18 95:13 **briefly** 4:13 26:9,13 43:14 210:6,11 230:4 **bring** 25:10 29:6 30:6 40:7 65:6 66:3 75:11 76:9 148:10 156:17 190:6 221:14 242:3 286:4 **bringing** 40:11 105:14 110:5 266:6Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 303 **broad** 113:9 **broke** 259:12 **brought** 27:1 30:2 76:3 120:8 158:1 189:7 214:6 223:16,19 295:7 **BTU** 129:16 188:18 217:11 **BTU's** 188:19 248:1 248:2 **BTUs** 212:2 **bucket** 132:19,21 **bucks** 176:5 **build** 200:17 254:3 **building** 1:8 10:6,7 94:15 146:1 ,2,7 148:5 ,9,20 149:1 149:21 ,22,22 150:2,9 153:13 154:2,3 ,5 ,12 162:4 173:6 179:13 201:17 222:14 229:13 ,16 229:22 230:18 232:10 234:6 235:3 ,6 236:8,20 238:19 241:1 ,3 243:10 244:14,18 246:2,4 247:1 ,2 247:19,20 248:6 249:11 250:21 251:1 255:22 256:4,5 ,5 258:3 258:14,17 260:13 264:9 265:20,22 266:11 ,14,15 267:6,9,10 268:14 269:1 ,20 271:10 273:6 287:14 **building's** 264:12 **buildings** 113:22 144:7 ,10 146:22 147:10 148:15 149:15 153:15 154:12,13 221:20 228:21 229:2 230:12,15 234:9 238:15 240:18 ,19 244:17 245:11 ,17 245:18 ,20 246:10 246:11 252:21 256:6,15 257:21 257:22 258:20,21 261:6,8,11 ,11 ,16 261:17 ,18,19 262:1 ,2,6,10,16 262:17 264:14

265:12 266:4,10 267:12 269:7 ,8 270:1 271:8 276:19 278:9,10 278:19,21 279:16 287:10,12 **built** 165:15 189:17 193:1 **built-in** 173:5 **bullet** 96:13 **bump** 166:10,14 **bunch** 14:12 **bunched** 232:17 **burden** 114:15 **business** 21:13 267:4 291:13 **buy** 134:21 135:5 135:15 201:7 **buyer** 136:14 **buying** 134:16 136:14 282:22 **C C**  2:13 4:1 67:15 69:13 194:22 **CA** 3:9 **cabinet** 169:20 194:7 195:8,17 197:18 206:16,20 **cabinets** 167:2 **cafeteria** 10:15 **caffeine** 20:4 **calculated** 210:18 248:13 **calculating** 233:4 242:18 247:3 **calculation** 107:13 107:16 179:17 229:15 ,16 231:10 248:8 249:4 275:9 **calculations** 176:15 191:19 237:4 240:20 **calendar** 45:3 79:18 84:21 89:22 90:2 93:10 95:9 **calibrated** 188:5 **California** 7:18,19 7:20 34:21 38:4 40:13 53:1 82:15 99:12 129:20 162:12,16 231:2 254:2 **call** 4:5 29:22 75:17 93:7 129:8 145:7 158:17 171:9 230:5 244:15

245:4,8,16 246:22 250:11 263:1 265:1 268:5 ,7 **called** 17:5 27:5 153:5 202:10,13 **calling** 43:9,10 **capability** 181:3 **capable** 236:2 **capacities** 153:12 166:9 195:1 203:16,17 211:22 212:5 280:1 **capacity** 29:3 117:19,21 128:21 129:15 ,17 133:5 ,7 145:14 146:20,22 150:22 153:15 155:15 ,15 161:5 171:13 180:4 181:10 188:12 189:6 191:10 203:19 205:2,20 207:17 ,19 208:2 216:6 219:21 265:18 **Capitals** 297:19 **capture** 37:11 46:2 48:21 115:3 175:3 176:15 199:7 208:12,14 236:17 239:12,14,16 243:17 274:13 276:17 277:10 **captured** 219:22 238:12 **capturing** 49:5 124:1 199:6 283:14 **care** 230:6 238:6 245:3 290:21 **careful** 39:20 49:15 176:15 188:4 201:22 205:9 **Carolina** 48:14 79:13 **Carrier** 8:5 74:22 108:10 111:19 118:1 132:17 171:19 174:14 175:21 268:4 **carry** 36:3 76:17 141:20 284:10 **carrying** 149:15 275:12 **case** 10:9 13:22 27:4 38:4 52:10 74:1 102:8 117:10 140:2,16 151:5 158:20 165:4 175:2 184:13 194:6,9 200:14 206:17 ,21 236:19 242:19 243:4 263:14,16,18 279:8,9 287:20 288:21 **case-by-case** 48:19 **cases** 109:6,15 170:7 225:10 237:14,17 241:6 **casing** 193:12 **catalog** 130:11 210:18 **catch** 268:6 **category** 167:20 **caucus** 294:8 **cause** 120:12 227:7 227:8 **caused** 195:7 **causes** 194:5 **caution** 148:11 **CAV** 151:11 153:16 153:22 277:1 279:21 **CBAKS** 145:8 149:4 **CBD** 284:15 **CEC** 103:19 **center** 235:5 241:13 **central** 99:17 231:2 **centralized** 150:5 **certain** 36:10 37:9 46:22 117:2 119:4 138:6 162:4 175:2 176:11 ,12 185:8 185:14 194:18 195:1 ,2 196:6 198:20,21 227:6 232:14 235:11 ,12 248:18 252:7 258:7 277:7 ,12 **certainly** 79:19 98:10 107:6 109:18 111:13 116:1 ,5 125:2 126:6 137:11 146:7 186:7 202:4 206:12 212:9 215:15 227:21 229:9 235:11 262:3 267:5 271:14 276:5

277:2 295:12 **certainty** 73:3 **certification** 57:13 57:15 ,16 73:22 **cetera** 200:15 **CFM** 152:8,9 183:13 **challenge** 69:18 209:8 **chance** 15:6 268:6 **chances** 179:3 **Chandra** 2:12 6:19 121:10 195:11 **change** 54:11 ,12 56:19 72:15 87:4 88:10 119:9 124:18 127:20 171:5 176:22 189:6 190:10 191:4 197:18 200:2,16 201:2 208:13 210:11 216:4 217:20 226:16,21 229:20 236:7 ,22 244:2,8 263:15 272:3 280:10,13 281:14 282:8 291:11 **changed** 77:15 191:6 210:13 222:13 **changes** 53:4 99:22 99:22 118:6 256:1 277:9 288:20 295:20 **changing** 142:7 171:9 **characteristic** 235:21 **characteristics** 114:13 152:14 **characterization** 124:6 167:6 216:1 **characterize** 99:16 114:12,20 133:22 143:12 146:15 166:18 216:9 **characterized** 63:8 124:3 197:4 **charges** 85:7 **Charlie** 3:11 7:14 42:4 43:2 44:22 45:13 46:13 ,15 48:12 54:22 56:8 57:1 59:6 79:12Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 304 83:11 ,11 **Charlie's** 45:13 47:13 48:8 55:19 58:4 80:21 **chart** 33:12 128:20 **charter** 23:2 24:1 **chartered** 4:6 12:4 **charts** 98:21 **chassis** 207:9,10,11 207:13 ,18 208:13 214:7 ,19 216:4 **cheap** 149:12 **cheaper** 134:15 282:12 **cheapest** 134:21 135:5 149:18 **check** 32:7 ,13 ,15 86:15 110:10 218:1 249:12 287:17 **checked** 271:7 **checkmark** 213:4,6 213:7 290:18 **checkmarks** 212:13 **checks** 32:12,18,20 **Chicago** 268:16 **Chicago's** 264:7 **choice** 30:19,22 264:19 **choices** 84:7 143:13 171:14 **choose** 113:3 116:13 118:10 119:7 124:5 ,17 174:14 **chose** 112:22 113:1 124:11 135:13 **circle** 178:20 **circles** 97:1 **circuit** 128:20,20 129:1 ,10,12,16,18 132:20,21 133:3 133:22 138:15 225:17 226:15 ,20 **circuiting** 224:20 **circuits** 132:22 198:20 225:12,12 225:13 226:14,19 226:21 227:17 **circulate** 95:9 **circumstance** 242:3 **circumstances** 46:18 48:1 ,18 49:1 63:4 **citing** 254:18 **clarification** 32:5 ,9 53:17 105:11 **clarify** 58:12 111:15

230:20 261:21 **class** 113:15 119:6 121:22 124:21 129:15 ,17 131:2,5 131:8,14,17 133:5 133:7 134:6,19 135:3 146:11 154:21 280:2 **classes** 99:1 131:14 155:15 192:13 215:12 218:14 **classified** 148:17 **cleanup** 94:1 **clear** 23:18 24:1 140:17 141:11 ,12 191:22 198:7 280:22 288:19 290:12 **clearly** 100:6 105:20 251:3 **climate** 2:12 6:20 241:12 264:12 **close** 44:12,13 ,13 ,14 57:20 205:16 212:5 223:8 **closely** 38:5 ,15 240:19 287:10,12 **closer** 211:21 **cloth** 101:12 **clothing** 233:19,21 **co-worker** 8:1 **Coast** 91:15 **Cochran** 6:17 ,17 **cocky-mammy** 287:8 **code** 139:4,5 256:1 **codes** 138:5 ,14,15 138:15 158:11 **coefficient** 231:21 **coffee** 10:14 **coil** 123:7 186:20 187:4,19,19,21 ,22 198:12,12 200:20 200:22 201:2 210:15 224:20 226:17 **coils** 192:11 197:16 200:13 ,16 **cold** 144:19 235:5 238:8 **colleague** 4:22 **colleagues** 6:2 **collect** 111:3 139:9 139:10,11 140:21 140:21 141:3 **collecting** 131:12

147:21 155:13 294:11 **color** 17:9 **column** 105:12 111:7 **combinations** 117:15 124:21 **combining** 23:13 **come** 25:16,18 27:13 ,15 28:13 ,16 45:3 46:6 56:12 62:12 64:16 72:8 101:9,10 105:7 113:20 114:4 125:18 131:9 138:22 156:12 165:9 173:13 179:4 186:12,14 213:15 215:5 ,14 225:6,7 228:14 252:22 256:20 264:21 268:10 269:16 271:20 272:7 ,8 280:21 288:4 289:14 291:20 292:2 293:6 294:16 **comes** 10:15 15:17 21:1 55:13 69:8 70:18 73:1 97:8 109:18 151:14 152:15 187:7 258:8 293:12 **comfort** 138:19,21 **comfortable** 87:13 148:22 253:5 266:22 **coming** 4:16 29:17 46:14 62:15 80:5 90:11 103:12 142:8 185:4 248:13 **comment** 38:11 ,12 53:4,16 58:2 62:1 111:10 112:7 125:20 136:9 151:9 156:19 157:20 222:11 279:13 283:8 298:8 **commented** 212:17 **comments** 18:5 40:16 41:7 47:17 53:5 62:2 67:18 67:21 68:4,10,11 68:18,19 71:21

78:18 97:15 ,16,21 107:4 108:2,2 126:6 127:21 158:13 187:18 189:13 190:8,21 192:1 202:16,18 203:5 ,8 204:2,16 280:20 **commercial** 1:2,3 ,4 53:8 73:21 154:5 159:14 187:6 255:1 ,7 256:15 **commit** 18:12 66:6 **commitment** 41:6 **committee** 12:21 13:1 15:19 18:10 18:17 22:8 27:5 ,7 27:7 ,12,15 28:15 29:8 37:21 43:19 55:21 56:2,16 73:1 74:16 75:7 75:14 102:2 103:5 286:22 288:13 296:1 **committee's** 65:18 103:4 **committees** 21:7 26:9 64:12 **committing** 66:4 73:2 **common** 148:6 251:21 **communicate** 19:9 45:14 46:1 298:3 **communicated** 46:18 **communicating** 48:5 **communication** 46:11 **community** 251:8 **companies** 21:14 **company** 2:6,15 7:21 121:5 136:3 136:6 139:13 200:2 **comparable** 162:6 271:8 **compare** 205:5 266:2,19,21 267:19 **compared** 161:11 162:15 **comparing** 245:19 247:5 272:1 285:15

**comparison** 162:20 **compatriots** 55:4,5 **compelling** 141:22 **compensate** 235:8 **competitive** 164:22 **competitors** 173:15 **compile** 81:20 **complement** 277:2 **complete** 203:22 224:18 292:15 **completely** 35:12 102:1 103:15 114:11 115:6 120:17 206:3 216:13 260:20 **compliance** 20:8 23:14 101:21 102:1 ,2,7 196:21 197:1 **comply** 54:5 172:21 **component** 107:9 107:12 109:1 110:18 116:9,21 **components** 107:14 **comprehensive** 284:9 **compressed** 19:10 34:12 45:2 125:14 **compression** 112:18 113:1 120:17 135:7 239:7 241:16 **compressor** 115:21 128:21 133:14 135:12,21 ,22 137:8,12,17 138:9 141:5 ,19 142:12 142:14,19,22 143:4,10 190:14 202:14 223:3 225:14,18 239:9 **compressors** 130:13 131:2,11 138:1 142:18 143:9 224:13 238:10 **conceive** 224:6 **concept** 32:17 143:22 160:13 205:17 225:20 **conceptionally** 102:21 **concepts** 67:2 **concern** 17:22 32:10 36:4 46:11 51:1 108:19 111:6Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 305 115:8 119:3 ,5 158:17 214:3 269:18 285:10 **concerned** 28:12 29:21 30:3 291:6 **concerning** 68:11 176:18 **concerns** 26:15 30:18 31:3 ,8 45:13 47:3 51:6 69:15 88:15 208:16 **Conciliation** 5:2 **concluded** 147:3 284:14 299:1 **conclusion** 288:5 **concurrently** 273:4 **condenser** 125:12 125:13 ,14 128:6 128:11 ,12 170:18 190:17 ,19 227:16 **condensing** 191:6,8 295:19,19 296:22 **condition** 233:2,6 234:21 **conditioner** 95:21 296:4 **conditioners** 1:3 23:16 101:7 **conditioning** 6:21 7:11 ,15 57:19 192:7 ,8 198:5 **conditions** 162:18 163:3 178:17 191:15 247:6,10 274:11 **conduct** 186:3 **conducting** 125:4 276:1 **conflict** 9:2 28:1 ,12 28:18,21 ,22 29:20 30:9 **conflicts** 28:7 81:3 **conforms** 124:15 **confused** 198:11 **connecting** 243:15 **consensus** 13:16 16:15 20:14,21 21:18 25:13 ,13 ,15 25:18 26:1 30:12 30:13 31:6,11 ,20 31:22 32:7 ,12,18 32:20,22 33:1 ,2,3 33:6 37:4 47:10 47:12 51:19,19 52:3 53:6,18,19 53:19 54:3 ,5

55:22 56:12 59:1 59:2,5 60:1 ,9 67:1 77:19 78:2 101:5 102:14 168:4 212:9 213:9 215:8 215:10,11 218:19 237:20 269:16 **conservatism** 173:5 174:1 199:8 **consider** 20:21 68:10 100:12 110:2 113:10,13 126:6 129:1 ,15 135:19 141:20 143:18 170:10 190:10,17 192:15 208:4,20 209:21 279:18 281:2 **considerable** 203:6 **consideration** 110:7 114:6 179:14 203:12 204:1 208:18 226:14 296:1 **considerations** 25:3 144:9 **considered** 27:11 49:19 97:22 145:6 147:6 153:8 **considering** 110:4 144:3 ,5 ,7 ,15 150:17 151:6 158:5 168:3 192:21 225:11 **consist** 75:2 **consistencies** 187:1 **consistent** 127:8 280:10 **consolidated** 235:19 **constant** 123:19,22 131:17 143:9 144:7 ,12,13 145:9 146:21 148:9,16 148:18 152:20,22 153:18 154:22 191:1 ,3 276:15 ,19 277:8,13 278:8,8 279:17 ,19 280:19 281:2,22 283:11 **constituents** 18:20 **constraints** 40:1 194:2,4,5 **construct** 211:8 236:16 **construction** 147:10 167:14 266:7

**constructive** 100:2 **consultants** 209:21 **consultation** 100:17 **consulting** 8:14,16 30:7 97:8,10 **consumed** 236:8 **consumption** 176:16 239:1 263:16 273:19 274:4 **content** 4:18 87:11 95:12 96:21 **context** 103:3 ,8,18 **continue** 98:7 228:1 271:15 ,16,18 **continued** 262:8 **continuing** 270:11 **contract** 253:21 **contractor** 55:6 180:22 182:20 **contractors** 7:15 108:5 180:12 198:1 **contribute** 111:14 **contributing** 75:17 **control** 109:9 147:18 190:8,13 190:20 191:12 **controls** 277:9 278:15 283:15 **controversial** 237:6 **convenience** 10:9 **conveniently** 249:17 **convening** 18:8 **conversation** 164:19 228:10 255:13 **conversations** 228:8 **converse** 149:14 **conversion** 158:2,11 158:18 ,19 159:18 160:4,6 161:4,12 163:7 164:1 ,17 ,21 165:2,16,21 166:3 166:7 167:10,15 167:22,22 168:5 ,7 169:10 170:1 171:6 173:10,21 174:17 ,18 175:2 176:10,21 180:20 181:1 182:7 183:22 184:5 ,6,7 184:16 186:4,6,7 193:11 ,15 195:21 196:3 277:17 283:20 284:21

292:20 293:13 ,20 **conversions** 198:1 **convert** 261:17 **convince** 58:6 **cool** 58:21 140:10 144:20 190:11 242:7 **cooled** 246:5 ,6 258:18 **cooling** 109:11 151:17 152:8 229:19 230:10 232:8,8 233:4 234:19 237:11 238:7 ,18 239:1 ,8 239:13 240:9,14 240:15 241:5 ,19 242:2,8,12,13 ,22 242:22 245:19,21 246:2,10 247:15 248:1 ,2,6 254:14 255:21 264:6,9 265:11 ,17 266:6,6 266:14 267:17 270:3 271:4 282:4 282:5 **cooling/heating** 238:17 **coordinate** 38:15 **core** 234:6 **corner** 10:8 **corollary** 102:10 **correct** 58:17 61:18 61:22 75:3 78:7 78:15 79:2 89:12 109:12 110:21 112:1 147:19 153:4 188:6 225:22 226:12 281:17 **corrected** 232:1 **correction** 231:17 231:20 **correctly** 29:11 **correlation** 103:17 **correlations** 183:7 190:9 191:13 ,18 201:17 ,22 237:13 280:5 **corresponds** 282:4 **corrupting** 30:6 **cosmetics** 234:13 **cost** 110:7 121:7 133:16,17 136:10 136:13 ,15 137:8,9 137:19 138:11

139:3 ,5 144:5 150:17 ,20 158:10 164:17 ,22 165:16 173:7 ,9 175:14,22 176:4,4,7 ,17 177:14 178:1 ,4 180:5 182:16 183:9,20,22 184:12,17 193:1 198:2 201:14,15 201:20 205:3 ,3 ,5 205:19 206:12 207:3 ,6,7 ,11 208:13 209:15 210:6 211:1 ,8,13 211:15 215:6 219:2,18 221:2,4 222:13 ,14,15 ,16 222:17 223:5 ,20 224:15 270:17 273:1 274:10 275:20 276:12 277:21 283:14 293:8 **costs** 110:3 144:15 174:2 176:9,19 178:6 183:9,20 185:3 186:4 193:2 193:5 ,6 197:22 201:15 210:18 223:5 ,10,22 251:17 273:13 277:11 ,15 278:14 283:14 292:20 294:10 295:19 **Coughlin** 3:7 9:10 9:10 236:13 244:4 254:18 255:18 257:20 263:13 265:7 267:11 270:3 288:17 289:22 290:4 **COUGLIN** 243:3 **Council** 2:21 3:2 7:4 7:8 **counsel** 4:16 6:18 100:7 **Counsel's** 6:16 **count** 52:10 60:21 154:12 246:4 250:22 251:1 292:11 **counted** 238:6 **counter** 70:15 234:13Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 306 **counting** 41:14,14 241:9 **country** 39:16 82:18 84:18 93:7 136:15 241:13 **counts** 39:18 **couple** 24:21 29:17 29:18 43:20 81:4 85:5 98:4 168:18 200:2 213:4 223:16 243:12 245:2 248:7 251:20 270:14 288:4 291:9 **course** 15:15 23:20 132:15 201:8 207:13 229:8 **court** 69:22 **courtesy** 41:6 65:22 **Courthouse** 89:19 **cover** 66:21 149:20 182:18 **covered** 23:6 **covering** 186:19 **covers** 64:7 129:15 **crack** 221:11 **create** 67:8 210:2 228:1 265:8 270:22 286:21 **created** 84:18 **creates** 56:2 **creative** 165:8 **credible** 265:15 **credit** 252:9,13 ,14 **criteria** 104:15 289:4 **critical** 80:22 152:2 169:15 **critically** 99:18 **cross** 294:3 **cross-reference** 87:6 **cross-referencing** 80:13 **cross-sectional** 169:12 **CUACCWAF** 4:4,4 **cubic** 275:8 **curious** 95:1 **current** 85:8 96:3 98:16,17 122:8 123:6 148:3 157:14 165:20 265:22 280:14 **currently** 92:6 120:21 121:15 219:18 233:2

239:3 243:4 265:18 278:6 **curve** 158:19,22,22 159:18 160:4,6,10 161:4,12 164:1 165:15 ,16,21 166:4,7 167:15 ,22 168:1 ,5 ,7 169:10 169:15 170:1 ,8,21 173:10,21 174:17 174:19 176:10,21 178:5 180:20 181:1 ,16 184:1 ,5 184:7 ,16 186:4,6 186:7 192:17 196:3 197:19 207:3 209:16,17 211:8,14,15 215:4 216:9 277:17 283:21 284:21 285:4 292:20 293:2,13 ,20 **curve's** 195:21 **curved** 175:2 **curves** 158:2 163:7 164:17 ,22 165:2 165:10 167:10 169:10 171:7 182:7 184:6 193:11 ,15 201:15 268:15 283:15 **customers** 182:7 **cut** 156:1 182:16 205:18 **CVA** 154:6,9 280:6 **CVAC** 153:13 ,21 154:7 ,11 ,11 277:3 277:4 278:18 **CVAC's** 276:18 279:15 280:2 **cycle** 176:9 234:1 270:17 273:1 ,13 274:10 275:20 276:12 283:14 **cyclic** 231:6 **cycling** 190:19 **Cymbalsky** 2:3 4:2 4:3 6:7 ,9 8:8,17 9:13 ,17 ,22 10:21 15:14 20:3 23:1 ,5 25:21 29:14 33:20 35:18 36:12,16,18 37:12 38:17 39:9 39:14 42:13 ,18 43:1 ,6,17 48:2,15 49:2,12,21 50:6

50:15 ,17 51:14 52:4 54:6,8,15 56:21 57:3 ,7 ,14 57:18 58:3 ,18 60:1 ,7 ,17 61:1 ,5 61:13 ,18 63:11 66:1 ,9,18 68:9 69:17 70:9,16,20 70:22 71:5 ,13 ,18 71:21 72:13 ,20 73:12,15 74:5 ,17 75:4,19 76:10 77:1 ,4,9,22 78:16 79:12,16 80:9,11 81:18 82:3 ,19 83:2,4,8,10,16,20 84:1 ,9,17 85:2,5 85:13 ,21 86:7 87:1 ,9 88:6,14 89:3 ,12,16 90:1 ,4 90:10,22 91:18 92:1 ,9,21 93:18 93:22 94:14,19 95:4,18 96:7 ,12 105:16 106:1 141:10 142:2,10 148:5 ,22 155:17 156:11 189:15 199:13 206:7 212:12 213:3 214:1 ,15 215:19 217:6 218:5 ,10,17 218:21 219:5 ,10 219:14 221:10,14 221:19 222:2,4 224:21 225:6 226:4,7 228:19 242:15 243:21 254:20 255:12 259:20 270:8 271:16 273:8,14 286:7 ,20 288:6,12 290:11 ,22 292:7 ,9 294:19 295:5 296:7 ,12,15 297:2 297:9,21 298:15 298:22 **D D**  4:1 115:14 194:22 **D.C** 61:8 **dangerous** 39:5 **data** 12:16 21:12,13 21:16 23:7 ,7 ,7 ,8 23:11 24:13 81:22 82:1 109:7 ,7 110:16 111:12

115:19 118:13 ,18 121:12 130:16 131:5 ,12,20 132:8 135:18 140:3 141:3 ,9,21 142:4 145:4 147:21 148:3 ,21 149:4 154:11 ,11 155:13 155:19 161:5 166:16 169:1 188:6 189:2,16 190:1 ,2,10 209:17 212:9 219:13 220:3 221:4 222:16,18 224:15 224:18 234:22 239:16 253:17 255:5 ,15 256:12 257:20 276:18 ,22 277:3 ,3 ,4 278:17 278:18 279:15 280:2 293:14 294:17 **database** 267:12 **date** 12:7 22:6 36:11 37:9 70:4,8 70:9 81:6 85:14 90:8 93:16 101:21 102:1 ,8 111:2 173:14 **dates** 23:14 78:19 78:19 79:8,22 80:7 ,22 87:20 91:2,19 93:19,21 95:9 102:2 **daunting** 22:8 **Dave** 3:6 8:20 189:3 198:3 **day** 52:1 79:18 83:1 84:2,6,10,21 86:6 86:9 90:13 93:2,4 152:4,4 292:8 **day's** 246:22 **days** 70:10,13 ,16 78:10 83:19 85:5 87:14 88:22 90:13 91:10 92:4,11 ,12 288:4 292:3 ,4 297:12 **DBD** 137:9 **DC** 1:10 **deadline** 16:5 22:17 22:22 **deadlines** 85:4 298:12 **deal** 5:6 28:6 51:8

124:7 171:21 197:22 208:7 ,11 257:5 290:14 **dealing** 110:22 239:17 **dealt** 232:3 **dear** 291:3 **decent** 246:21 **decide** 49:16 98:11 103:7 111:2 155:13 177:17 **decided** 48:19 69:9 155:11 211:14 237:10 290:14 298:16 **decides** 12:20 51:3 73:6 **decision** 30:18 93:17 115:3 132:14 140:13 143:8 289:4 290:6 291:7 **decision-making** 19:21 30:16 **decisions** 19:22 74:19 124:13 161:22 173:2 213:16 **declare** 156:12 **decoupled** 201:13 210:8,10 **decoupling** 202:3 210:5 213:6 **dedicate** 221:7 **deep** 125:13 **default** 25:15 **Defense** 3:2 7:4 **defer** 100:18 **define** 16:13 ,14 25:14 33:2 122:19 122:20 **defined** 37:4 39:7 67:1 123:10 **defining** 25:13 42:20 49:11 54:9 149:1 **definitely** 23:9 88:9 106:7 171:15 ,16 172:11 219:22 240:15 245:1 246:12 272:20 282:22 283:5 **definition** 47:13 54:11 ,12 63:12 **definitions** 30:14Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 307 **definitive** 46:9 81:6 **degradation** 231:6 231:21 **degree** 101:22 229:17 247:9 **degrees** 230:9,15 264:10 **DELAKSI** 77:12 **DELASAKI** 76:20 **deLaski** 2:9 9:19 10:19,19 12:21 35:2,2 36:8,13 ,17 41:12,12 44:8,8 45:12,19,22 47:6 47:9 50:9 51:1 ,12 55:18 65:10,10,16 65:21 70:7 71:7 71:14,20 75:9 76:13 ,15 77:3 83:6,9 93:14,20 94:3 99:20 100:21 101:2 103:22 106:11 115:5 125:19 126:10,17 129:7 130:2 133:8 133:20 134:5 136:8,13 ,19,22 137:18 138:10,16 141:6 172:13 174:16,20 175:1 ,5 175:14 183:19 196:12 200:7 202:17 205:12 206:5 208:12 209:8,19 216:7 217:2,5 ,7 ,13 ,18 218:7 ,16 220:20 245:7 249:21 250:7 ,10 251:1 ,16 253:17 254:12 291:22 292:8,12 294:5 ,13 ,16 295:16 296:10,22 297:6 **delays** 43:9,16 **deliver** 150:16 185:12 **demonstrate** 244:16 270:4 **Department** 1:1 ,7 2:1 9:3 16:11 26:5 27:18 33:7 101:22 156:20 **Department's** 27:19 66:22 **depend** 152:13 **dependent** 114:11

**depending** 69:9 104:21 132:5 148:15 171:13 177:3 243:5 263:10 281:3 ,5 284:15 **depends** 71:6 82:21 214:13 242:9 264:11 **describe** 22:21 255:2 **described** 43:2 216:4 243:2 **describing** 148:11 200:8,9 245:9 261:4 269:18 **description** 123:9 **design** 104:15 ,19 105:5 119:21 121:4 123:18 ,21 143:12 155:6 156:4 177:5 178:15 ,22 182:4 197:21 210:19 229:10,17 ,19 230:9,10,14,21 231:3 257:19 276:15 277:14 278:2,7 ,8,12,13 278:13 279:9 281:15 **designate** 35:5 36:18 146:3 **designated** 26:4,7 35:6,15 ,22 36:6 37:11 61:3 ,12 **designation** 145:13 145:15 ,20 **designed** 119:22 120:3 121:8 166:20 181:11 185:10,14 193:22 222:21 **designer** 187:19,19 187:22 210:15 **designing** 178:15 179:13 **designs** 166:19 182:17 224:5 284:14 **desire** 146:5 **detail** 109:19 116:6 126:9 **detailed** 11:15 266:13 **details** 5:20 89:18

222:21 227:9 228:3 237:2 **determinate** 204:14 **determination** 69:22 70:1 ,5 **determine** 108:6 113:20 165:21 184:2 229:12 238:1 **determined** 229:15 231:9,11 **determining** 231:6 **Detlef** 2:8 8:15 97:9 99:21 106:2 111:20 152:5 168:11 184:18 186:12,14 197:4 202:17 212:18 213:8 217:15 224:12 273:17 ,18 274:3 275:3 279:12,14 280:16 283:22 293:12 **Detlef's** 276:13 **detract** 296:4 **develop** 19:11 74:1 127:14 173:8 287:16 **developed** 107:10 127:9 190:9 210:15 256:4 **developing** 26:17 191:13 **development** 201:15 ,16,22 273:5 295:1 **deviate** 50:2 **dialogue** 271:17 **diameters** 195:14 **Diane** 2:15 **Dianne** 7:12 122:21 **dibs** 94:21 **Dick** 76:16 249:10 251:10 257:6 262:19 266:18 268:2,6,10 269:21 270:6 286:3 ,12 288:3 **Dick's** 76:16 **dictate** 123:21 **dictated** 283:16 **dictating** 283:19 **Diego** 7:19 **differ** 75:6 142:16 **difference** 42:9 54:17 75:15 102:11 164:5 ,8 188:8 191:5 ,7 ,8 243:19 248:13 249:2,10,16 253:2 261:10 263:9,10 265:5 ,11 267:17 272:11 ,13 ,20 281:10 287:5 291:4,5 **differences** 188:7 258:18 **different** 20:19 21:4 32:12 39:15 42:14 42:20 44:1 ,4 46:14 48:3 63:11 69:7 99:1 103:6,6 103:8 107:14,15 113:3 ,13 114:14 117:13 ,14 118:3 119:16 120:14,17 123:6 124:10,11 141:15 142:4,9 143:12,13 147:17 153:12,13 ,15 155:14 156:4 162:14 166:10 168:19 174:15 178:6 186:17 187:10 190:16 195:13 ,14,17 200:10 206:4,20 206:20 207:1 ,9,11 211:6,7 223:22 226:19 233:22 235:2,17 ,18,20 236:11 249:1 253:8 256:13 259:21 263:20 277:1 288:22 289:2,21 **differential** 205:3 ,4 205:5 **differentiation** 54:2 **differently** 34:9 103:9 166:21 212:21 229:9 **difficult** 139:11 **diffuser** 144:20 178:21 281:14 **diffusers** 144:17 150:21 151:11 277:10 278:15 280:10,13 282:8 283:15 **diligent** 11:13 **dimension** 210:2

**dimensional** 194:2 **dimensions** 193:19 **diminishing** 138:7 **dinner** 297:17 **direction** 138:11 163:2 218:20 **directions** 214:4 **directly** 223:7 **directory** 113:6 217:16 218:2 219:1 220:12 **disaggregated** 154:6 **disagrees** 128:2 **disappears** 48:8 **disconnecting** 252:1 **discontent** 261:15 262:5 **discount** 28:16 **discouraging** 102:14 **discrete** 256:12 **discretion** 62:4 **discuss** 12:1 80:7 98:21 105:22 106:17 237:3 **discussed** 80:6 129:3 280:18 287:9 289:17 295:10 **discussing** 221:2 244:11 256:20 294:20 **discussion** 11:2 16:17 30:17 32:14 40:11 46:3 81:15 98:10 105:17 128:2 139:3 145:2 147:8 151:12 155:1 158:7 164:14 170:13 185:22 198:6 202:15 220:7 257:4 259:7 268:18 271:18 277:20 280:8 292:20 **discussions** 104:3 105:19 111:21 **dishwasher** 102:6 **dispersed** 136:19 **disposal** 165:8 **dispose** 175:16 **disputes** 5:4 **disregarded** 111:8Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 308 **disruptive** 35:13 **disseminate** 64:10 **dissimilar** 194:17 **distinction** 52:8 75:15 **distribute** 185:18 **distribution** 145:5 151:7 152:2 153:1 **distributions** 144:16 **diverse** 119:17 136:4 **divide** 265:1 **dividing** 132:2 **docket** 113:4 202:18 286:8,9 **dockets** 14:8 **document** 68:17 70:17 72:2 74:6 **documents** 87:6 90:7 95:11 **DOE** 2:3 4:3 6:10 6:17 10:15 12:5 12:12 13:4,9,20 14:3 ,7 18:18 20:21 21:2 22:1 23:17 33:18,20 35:19 38:18 43:18 49:12 52:4 54:2,4 54:13 58:3 67:11 68:10,17 72:21 74:8 100:6,13 101:2,5 102:13 103:19 107:4 132:8 141:10 155:17 156:21 159:14 189:15 254:20 **DOE's** 9:4 11:19 20:7 21:19 54:3 54:15 70:5 108:4 113:6 202:20 **doing** 13:13 14:21 15:22 17:1 18:16 43:11 45:16 54:11 65:18 84:19 93:1 99:21 109:16 114:9,10,11 115:8 120:21 131:13 138:2 141:14 150:18 172:18 184:4 185:20 188:11 ,21 190:12 191:16 192:20 203:14 204:11 206:1 209:16 213:2 215:18

223:15 224:3 ,5 228:11 229:21 235:9 236:2 237:21 239:3 246:1 247:16 248:9,10,12 258:4 273:4 276:5 284:14 285:1 290:16 297:19 **dollar** 226:8 **dollars** 205:4 293:1 **don't'** 296:4 **doodle** 78:9,11 79:5 80:13 85:8 87:20 87:21 90:9 **door's** 20:19 **Doppel** 2:11 8:6,6 39:3 ,3 47:19,19 53:21 ,21 54:7 ,14 82:21 83:3 91:9 92:3 105:10,10 109:22,22 110:11 111:6 162:1 ,1 165:18 ,18 166:5 166:12,22 167:4 180:3 ,20 194:16 199:14,14 200:4 235:15 ,15 240:4 243:14 245:4 251:10 254:13 ,19 260:9 262:18 ,18 263:4 287:1 ,1 288:2,8 289:19,19 290:2,6 **Dopple** 179:12,12 290:9,16 **doubt** 17:17 165:6 271:10 **doubts** 31:8 **downsize** 181:19 **downstairs** 17:13 **downstream** 114:10 142:8 **draft** 15:18 **drag** 24:2 **dramatic** 236:7 **draw** 297:2 **driver** 136:12,18 140:20 **drop** 150:1 158:19 159:9,10 160:1 ,5 161:18 ,19 163:22 180:16 183:13 ,15 226:19 227:14 **dropping** 183:14 **drops** 51:7 150:2 158:10 186:11 ,13 293:22 **dry** 229:19 230:10 237:13 247:9,12 247:13 ,20 287:14 **dual** 102:10 110:1 128:20 129:1 ,11 129:16 132:20 144:3 **duck** 13:6 **duct** 169:18 180:17 **ducts** 169:12,14,22 170:6,19 171:11 **ductwork** 144:13 ,14 153:7 177:17 178:10,20 187:3 **ductworks** 150:6 **due** 158:19 256:2 **dwelling** 254:7 **E E**  4:1 ,1 68:22 112:18 **earlier** 81:15 84:2,3 172:14 173:3 ,7 192:12 196:17 217:8 221:22 222:11 277:19,20 278:19 284:1 292:5 ,10,10 293:16 **early** 81:9 82:3 85:14 292:6 **easier** 32:2 86:11 93:4 123:5 137:16 142:8 **easy** 41:6 168:16 209:9 236:4 264:16 293:9,9 **eat** 17:13 198:2 **EBBR** 107:13 **economically** 20:12 **economist** 226:7 **economize** 247:14 256:22 **economized** 244:14 244:18 ,18 245:18 246:1 ,10 247:2 258:16 260:14 261:6,16,18,18 262:2,6,17 265:11 265:12 266:11 ,15 266:19 269:1 271:1 287:10 **economizer** 135:20 238:5 ,9,20 241:16 243:17 248:18

249:8 251:14 253:8 257:18 258:3 ,7 ,16 259:8 260:10,21 261:1 261:10 263:7 268:20 269:4,5 ,10 272:18 284:5 287:4 288:19 294:11 **economizers** 136:2 246:8 248:14,21 249:12 250:2,3 ,14 250:17 251:11 252:3 ,5 ,9,19 253:11 254:3 255:3 ,9 256:9 257:7 ,14,21 258:1 258:19 259:14 261:7 265:19 266:3 ,9 267:16 269:19 270:1 271:4 273:3 289:11 291:10 **economizing** 102:22 135:19 238:19 240:11 241:3 ,4 242:20 244:10 246:16 247:16 263:3 269:5 270:20 286:2 **Economy** 2:22 7:9 **edge** 179:2 185:7 ,9 **edges** 182:5 **Edison** 2:20 7:19 9:8 22:15 **EEI** 296:19 **EEL** 108:13 **EEL3** 108:14 **EER** 98:15 ,17 ,19,22 99:9,14 100:10 101:3 ,4,4,7 113:7 115:1 116:13 117:6,8,12 121:16 121:22 122:1 ,4 123:9 125:6 157:14,19,20 188:12 191:10 **effect** 68:1 69:6 70:2 101:11 ,12,15 124:2 172:16 196:18 ,19 237:22 260:17 263:11 ,18 263:19 278:20 **effected** 291:11 **effective** 70:4,8,9 139:3 ,5 165:16 246:16 **effectively** 256:10 **effectiveness** 133:17 137:9,19 138:12 **efficiencies** 128:11 179:5 ,6 208:17 **efficiency** 7:6 20:11 107:11 108:6 113:16 119:22 120:5 ,7 127:11 130:21 135:4 143:21 144:5 158:3 160:22 161:15 165:9 166:20 174:20,21 176:11 179:8 189:6 192:13 ,18 202:8 207:19,21 208:5 213:19 214:18 215:22 223:16,18 226:17 227:6 235:18 237:15 277:7 ,13 277:15 ,18 281:4 283:21 **efficient** 2:22 7:9 139:18 177:20 243:6 **effort** 20:15 21:12 34:14 39:2 287:11 289:18 **EIA** 255:1 **eight** 10:12 **eight/ninth** 92:6 **eighth** 90:22 91:6 92:16,17 94:16 **Eileen** 2:4 4:21 5:14 5:15 24:20 31:12 33:4,11 46:2 49:4 62:5 65:3 75:1 297:15 **Eileen's** 91:14 **either** 20:4 28:16 45:7 54:18 75:22 86:22 165:14 176:10 190:18 193:2 228:1 238:17 275:7 287:3 **EL** 108:18 116:20 121:21 122:4,14 123:1 ,2,4 125:11 134:14 160:11 ,19 169:16 **EL0** 117:2Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 309 **EL1** 123:18 128:22 141:20 142:1 ,11 143:16,18 144:4 155:7 171:12 278:7 280:21 **EL2** 121:14 123:18 144:1 ,4 155:7 278:7 280:21 **EL2.5** 284:1 **EL3** 144:2 159:2 166:2,7 ,15 ,15 ,19 167:13 ,16,17 ,21 167:22 168:3 170:10 174:5 184:3 203:6,21 204:8 208:6,10 209:2 217:18 ,19 217:20 281:13 **EL3.05** 284:2 **EL3.1** 174:5 202:11 **EL3.5** 174:5 **EL4** 166:19 170:18 202:11 ,13 203:3 ,6 203:21 208:6,10 **Electric** 2:6,11 ,20 7:20 8:7 9:9 22:15 53:22 **electricity** 255:1 296:21 **electronic** 233:18 **electronics** 257:10 **element** 196:1 **elephant** 22:5 111:1 **elevate** 172:5 **elevated** 273:19 **elevator** 44:20 45:9 **eliminates** 194:16 **ELR** 217:10 **ELs** 110:2 144:3 208:20 221:3 288:22 289:2 **else's** 287:9 **email** 43:21 ,21 48:5 63:10 126:15 **emailed** 43:12 **emailing** 39:17 44:15 **emails** 90:6,6 298:5 **emergency** 10:9 **Emerson** 2:12 6:20 121:11 195:12 **Emily** 9:15 ,16,21 **emphasis** 203:8 **emphasizing** 71:9 **employ** 148:8 **employed** 255:3 **employees** 27:8,8,22 29:1 ,1 **enable** 203:11 ,20 **ended** 43:11 **ends** 230:17 247:16 **energy** 1:1 ,7 2:1 7:6 7:9 9:3 16:11 18:1 20:11 97:2 99:10 99:16 105:4 114:11 119:4 121:8 144:6 152:22 160:21 175:12 176:2,13 176:16 179:8 201:13 ,17 204:20 211:3 ,4 224:15 229:13 235:17 ,22 236:8 238:1 ,7 239:5 241:10 242:18 243:4,8 244:7 248:9 263:7 263:16,17 ,21 272:3 ,9 273:21 274:5 ,9 281:6 289:6 **energy's** 238:5 **Energy-** 2:21 **enforcement** 56:11 57:6,10 **engaged** 42:21 **engineer** 50:11 183:6 188:16 221:7 260:21 **engineered** 180:11 210:21 211:2 **engineering** 97:2,7 97:10 114:10,12 123:17 141:18 165:7 167:9 168:12 170:1 191:17 201:14 215:16 222:5 283:16 **engineers** 163:6 173:7 198:18 225:4 **engineers'** 182:17 **enhancement** 188:8 **enormously** 171:13 **enriched** 15:18 **ensure** 26:22 41:15 **enter** 14:7 **entered** 48:7 **entering** 17:21 18:6 **Enterprises** 3:6 **entire** 131:14 **entirely** 125:17

**entries** 95:9 **entry** 136:10,14 **environmental** 11:18 52:22 254:7 254:10 **envision** 170:7 **EPAC** 127:8 **EPCA** 24:7 **equal** 50:8 296:20 **equation** 183:20 247:14 **equations** 107:15 191:14 248:11 ,11 **equipment** 6:10 114:13 ,14 119:6 134:12,15 ,16 146:20 147:4 149:20 150:5 151:2,5 ,15 152:7 154:17 160:9 162:20 176:18 178:19 179:5 180:1 ,6,18 181:11 182:14 199:20 222:14,15 ,16 227:2 228:2 229:3 229:13 231:11 ,12 233:1 238:22 242:19 252:10 256:2 270:11 **equitable** 162:5 **equivalence** 99:7 ,7 **equivalent** 193:2 265:8 **ER** 112:13 113:5 117:9 119:12 **ERE2013-BT-SD ...**  113:5 **Eric** 6:15 100:12,13 103:3 156:21 **Eric's** 294:7 **ESP** 164:10 177:17 **especially** 129:14 156:22 180:5 194:18 231:18 **espousing** 28:9 **essentially** 46:20 150:18 152:19 153:1 157:15 193:1 248:20 **establish** 11:5 13:15 20:11 25:1 99:6 **establishing** 12:6 **estimate** 127:5 128:12 153:14 186:9 223:5 ,22

263:16 265:10 289:5 **estimated** 188:9 227:5 **estimates** 126:21 127:15 223:8,9 267:18 **estimation** 186:6 **et** 200:15 **ethics** 4:15 24:16 25:19 26:2,5 **evacuate** 10:12 **evaluate** 177:17 **evaluating** 191:17 **EVAP** 197:16 198:8 **evaporator** 170:19 225:17 227:15 **evaporators** 192:9 **event** 44:10 83:7 **everybody** 13:11 34:18 37:14 41:9 88:22 92:2 95:10 189:2 **everybody's** 67:9 93:9 187:13 235:6 249:14 288:19 **everyone's** 16:20 30:17 ,18,19,22 77:4 90:2 212:16 284:22 **exact** 83:18 180:9 **exactly** 71:18 76:19 117:5 120:13 130:6 164:11 169:22 185:10 193:3 204:21 225:1 232:15 284:15 **examine** 214:21 **example** 58:4 63:10 76:16 214:8 233:8 246:13 247:17 264:7 **examples** 117:20 231:1 264:3 **exceptions** 47:1 **exchange** 198:20 **exchanger** 128:10 197:16 198:17 210:22 222:22 224:13 **exchangers** 169:17 192:6,8,10 198:22 223:3 **exchanges** 192:5 **exclude** 45:10

**Excuse** 205:12 **exercise** 10:12 266:1 **exist** 21:16 **existence** 29:9 **existing** 144:10,12 144:17 145:5 147:10 151:10 157:16 158:4 165:10,12 167:17 170:8,12 178:9 179:22 180:17 182:9 184:18 193:18 211:5 ,6 215:2 257:15 262:2 277:7 **exists** 21:16 **expect** 24:16 35:22 137:7 **expectation** 82:1 130:19 **expecting** 116:10 126:8 **expensive** 143:5 283:11 **experience** 5:9,16 33:18 42:2 60:11 64:9 116:2 266:16 **experienced** 21:9 **expert** 256:15 **expertise** 22:2 75:5 75:11 **experts** 5:19 21:20 74:16 76:3 114:4 **explain** 31:15 32:8 210:6,11 **explained** 106:3 212:18 **explanation** 169:8 **explore** 286:21 **exponent** 275:2 **expressed** 12:14 **extent** 21:15 67:22 69:4 70:1 105:4 109:4 110:22 116:19 188:13 196:2 256:14 **extenuating** 47:22 48:18,22 63:3 **external** 161:19 162:3 169:2 186:19 187:1 274:2 284:18 285:2,5 ,12 **extra** 23:10 75:5 179:1 214:18Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 310 **extrapolated** 210:17 **extrapolation** 211:1 **extreme** 236:18 **eyeball** 287:15 **F f**  3:10 67:15 233:4 **FACA** 26:8,10,10 26:13 ,19 29:8 30:10 54:9 **face** 125:12 128:10 **faced** 103:16 **facilitate** 94:13 **facilitation** 5:21 31:13 91:6 **facilitator** 2:4,5 16:1 41:15 **facilitators** 4:13 ,21 14:13 16:2 33:5 41:17 62:5 65:7 78:15 91:5 ,11 92:9 94:4 297:22 **fact** 28:1 38:20 99:8 110:12 118:10,14 138:5 ,10 187:18 260:4 **factor** 24:7 178:22 231:5 ,10 237:22 256:6 **factors** 205:14 255:21 256:13 267:19 **factory** 185:4 **factual** 142:15 **Fahrenheit** 191:21 230:15 **failing** 260:20 **fails** 259:9 **failure** 248:18 249:20 251:6,9 252:8,19 253:6,7 253:9,11 ,12,16 256:22 258:8 259:10,16 260:19 260:22 272:18 **failures** 252:6 253:9 **fair** 17:22 26:22 160:22 166:18 167:6 209:15 216:1 228:13 **fairly** 109:10 225:10 **faith** 21:5 ,6,8,12,21 38:19,20 61:13 **fall** 72:11 84:21 96:5 97:15 **falls** 121:18 206:18 **familiar** 10:5 15:3 105:3 112:4

**fan** 5:5 115:20 126:20,22 127:5 ,6 127:14 128:6,8,11 128:12 138:15 152:21 159:18 160:21 163:14 168:12 179:5 185:11 186:20 187:2,3 190:17 237:7 ,17 ,19 238:5 238:7 ,11 239:1 ,5 240:9 241:10 242:1 ,3 243:1 ,6 273:19 275:1 ,8 282:2 **fan's** 238:16 241:6 242:13 **fancy** 252:9 **fans** 190:19 **fantastic** 167:9 **far** 21:3 42:7 80:2 116:10 131:22 144:20 175:18 250:16 260:11 262:15 ,16 286:17 286:18 **fashion** 128:8 **fast** 197:6 214:13 222:9 **fathom** 127:10 **favor** 53:16 61:19 **feasible** 20:12 **features** 102:12,15 **February** 95:20 96:8 **federal** 5:1 ,2 6:11 22:16 26:7 27:3 ,8 28:1 29:1 71:10 96:3 ,5 **feedback** 106:12 124:16 125:2 144:22 223:6 **feeds** 223:4 **feel** 33:17 55:12 66:4 98:6 118:12 137:13 148:22 232:13 244:22 266:21 293:15 **feeling** 36:5 **feels** 34:9 **feet** 172:5 **Fein** 9:6,6 **felt** 62:15 **Fernstrom** 3:9 7:17 7:17 34:20,20 38:3 ,10,12 39:19

40:13 49:18 52:19 53:14 54:19 56:17 57:9,16,19 59:17 60:6 63:6 64:14 82:14 99:11 107:17 108:20 129:19 130:6 132:12 134:7 139:1 146:18 147:9 162:11 230:7 ,19 254:1 ,10 296:17 **field** 162:14,18,21 163:3 178:16 184:21 274:10 285:2 **fifth** 29:12,14,16 89:8 **figure** 48:20 91:21 94:11 97:7 141:3 154:9 160:3 171:3 200:21 219:10,12 220:3 223:11 252:20 259:3 271:19 276:3 277:4 287:7 **figured** 182:21 **figuring** 187:6 **file** 67:20 68:3 187:10 232:3 **files** 230:1 232:4 298:1 ,2 **fill** 13:1 203:5 ,21 **filled** 204:9 **filling** 6:21 7:21 146:12 204:12 **filters** 187:4 **final** 14:4 32:18 67:20 68:14 69:2 69:4,5 ,10,20 70:1 70:20 71:3 ,14,16 72:10 93:16 173:13 **finally** 69:18 277:16 **finance** 221:7 **financial** 29:3 **find** 10:8 12:10 17:12 45:4 65:17 143:17 146:20 166:5 173:8,18 203:10,14,20 204:5 ,14 205:14 272:1 **finds** 65:12 223:4 **fine** 34:2 39:10 51:13 ,14 76:4 82:9 86:22 88:4 88:14,22 107:18 111:15 151:10 244:14,20 **finish** 4:8 24:5 221:16 292:5 ,5 298:7 **finished** 157:8 **firmed** 87:22 **first** 4:3 14:20 19:5 20:7 24:17 25:3 30:13 ,15 ,19,22 31:7 ,15 32:1 ,12 33:14 35:11 60:15 80:3 ,7 88:16 89:11 91:9 92:15 94:20,21 107:3 123:7 ,8 126:19 137:21 ,21 138:2 156:1 160:17 180:11 181:14 194:10 205:18 229:10 231:15 233:16 239:19 256:19 284:12,13 **first-class** 138:21 **fit** 102:3 158:22 159:1 165:10 194:1 **five** 24:16 32:1 138:7 142:20 189:21 ,22 241:15 **fix** 259:22 **fixed** 257:9 **flag** 223:14 **flatly** 155:3 **flexibility** 101:21 **flexible** 84:3 **flight** 43:8,16 82:21 84:7 **flights** 292:10 **flip** 14:15 ,17 33:12 278:2 **floated** 12:20 67:5 184:2 **floor** 10:13 25:11 40:9 94:16 149:9 150:3 153:21 233:11 **floors** 10:12 149:5 ,6 149:8 **flow** 41:7 62:16 112:22 120:18 143:21 144:1 ,5 ,16 144:17 150:16 151:5 152:11 ,17

177:5 183:8 189:7 189:11 ,18 225:15 225:16 226:12 233:16 275:7 280:12 281:16 282:9,14 283:18 **flowed** 13:3 **flows** 128:10 **fly** 214:5 240:17 **flying** 91:15 94:10 **FMCS** 5:15 30:14 **focus** 80:4 96:20 218:6,11 **focused** 125:16 243:22 255:13 295:5 ,11 **focusing** 198:5 **folks** 33:22 79:1 114:16 294:7 ,8 **follow** 77:19 81:14 99:13 104:18 120:22 172:14 193:15 224:8 **follow-up** 149:3 249:21 **following** 39:4 115:6 271:2 **foot** 146:13 ,14 245:22 267:17 270:4 271:5 **footage** 145:21 146:11 245:11 246:6,7 250:2 251:2 258:18 261:10 278:16 **footers** 149:11 **footprint** 171:9,10 193:14 283:20 **forced** 138:14,14 139:4 **foreign** 39:16 93:7 **forever** 200:3 ,5 **forget** 214:16 **forgot** 53:3 130:11 254:15 273:12 **form** 13:4 73:9 105:14 113:14 270:9,10 **formal** 32:19 98:4 147:2 244:10 **formed** 12:5 74:7 76:2 **formulation** 196:17 **Forrestal** 1:8 **forth** 12:12,15Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 311 **forthcoming** 104:6 **fortunately** 222:22 **forum** 69:22 **forward** 5:7 ,11 14:3 20:22 22:1 33:8 62:17 64:20 67:10 96:17 103:19 106:5 128:18 139:22 140:18 145:1 197:7 225:8 237:18 284:10 288:10,11 291:14 291:16 298:18 **found** 11:19 40:15 41:5 217:8,10,13 217:14 219:1 253:9,10 260:19 **four** 12:8 52:8 53:3 53:10,16 54:16,20 55:12 57:22 172:5 196:19 218:4 253:11 **four-stage** 231:16 **fours** 119:18 **fourth** 52:2 89:8 128:19 **fraction** 50:19 155:10 243:8 276:19,22 **fractions** 145:19 277:1 **frame** 267:3 **Frankly** 71:5 291:6 **free** 33:17 102:1 241:19 **freedom** 77:8 **frequently** 40:16 **Friday** 85:14,20 245:16 262:20 263:1 284:7 **Friday's** 244:15 **friend** 245:4 **front** 110:10 115:9 187:14 **front/back** 225:12 **fulfill** 65:17 **full** 20:8 27:15 49:16 144:17 150:14 181:9 183:8 191:14 202:1 211:22 224:1 ,18 241:11 280:1 ,12 282:3 292:3 ,4 **fully** 19:19 35:14,17 35:22 36:1 37:11 37:16,17 38:21

61:12,14 216:7 261:1 280:18 283:18 297:11 **fun** 5:3 **function** 201:16 214:3 ,7 216:1 237:13 ,19 247:20 276:15 **functioning** 250:2 258:15 261:2 **furnace** 23:16 95:22 194:1 196:15 198:9 200:20 201:8 **furnaces** 96:7 198:6 198:8 200:15 **further** 12:5 69:13 130:17 170:20 204:18 205:15 232:5 279:13 286:3 **future** 27:15 167:3 224:5 257:15 **G G**  4:1 **gained** 23:13 **GALLAPUDI** 121:10 **gallery** 8:18 **game** 297:17 **Gary** 3:9 7:17 34:20 38:3 ,9 39:19 40:13 ,20 49:18 52:19 53:14 54:19 55:3 56:17 59:17 61:4 63:6 64:14 82:14 99:11 107:17 108:20 129:19 131:10 132:12 134:7 139:1 146:18 162:11 230:7 254:1 296:17 **Gary's** 60:20 **gas** 2:6 7:20,20 198:22 220:8,17 **gas-heat** 220:6 **gears** 257:9 **general** 4:16 6:15 6:18 37:9 40:3 88:19 150:15 164:10 169:10 179:2 187:13 198:16 261:15 262:5 **generalized** 263:6

**generally** 49:16 63:2 134:10 150:3 159:15 **getting** 19:1 21:17 36:5 37:8 44:6 50:19 72:1 81:11 93:16 125:17 169:18 ,19 179:7 185:18 193:13 200:19 205:14 215:8 221:4 225:21 238:3 249:7 258:10 259:18 **ghost** 55:15 **give** 11:3 30:4 36:10 40:8 83:4 103:22 201:5 203:22 204:13 207:20 217:15 218:20 220:20,21 244:7 266:13 296:5 297:9 **given** 99:14 104:4 112:14 115:1 ,2 117:12 121:21 ,22 139:9,10 170:12 170:12 212:8 215:6 225:17 266:16 **gives** 16:8 71:16 77:7 142:22 143:1 189:2 **giving** 26:20 105:4 114:6 **glad** 202:17 204:11 **glass** 186:16 **glorious** 120:1 **go** 4:9,10,14 6:5 ,7 10:1 ,10,11 11:1 ,5 11:7 12:2,10 13:1 13:13 14:3 15:10 15:15 20:9 21:10 21:16 22:2,19 24:9,11 ,17 25:17 26:1 ,9 33:8,10 37:3 ,4,5 ,8 39:5 42:6 43:2 48:16 50:18 51:10 54:18 55:10 59:8,21 60:2,3 62:16 67:6 67:9 68:16 78:4 85:7 87:10 91:19 93:8 96:12 98:5 104:7 ,17 ,21 106:16 109:19

110:9 117:20 118:21 125:8,10 133:1 134:16 142:2,17 ,20 143:8 145:1 150:1 157:18 173:1 175:18 180:15 182:3 185:1 191:22 195:3 196:18 200:17 201:17 207:6,8,16 207:16,18 209:14 212:12 213:16 214:6 216:21 ,22 222:6,19 227:20 228:20 230:16 244:5 ,5 252:12 253:16 256:2 260:7 266:1 267:3 268:11 ,13 273:18 274:15 275:8,17 276:11 280:12,14 284:11 288:10,10 292:13 **goal** 20:17 81:8 273:1 **goes** 21:1 41:2 50:21 69:13 101:10,11 ,11 ,15 104:19 115:20 122:18 ,19 172:16 196:18 206:17 **going** 4:8,9,10,12,13 6:14 10:2,10,11 10:11 11:1 ,2,4,7 11:12 13:12,20 14:22 15:5 ,22 16:13 19:20,22 24:8,12 25:4 26:9 30:5 31:6,7 ,7 ,8,9 33:14 34:2 38:16 40:2 42:7 ,14 45:4 45:15 46:17 47:10 47:11 ,12 48:1 51:20 52:16 53:7 54:9,20,20 55:11 58:8 60:3 65:18 66:5 67:6,7 ,7 ,14 67:16 68:5 ,21 75:13 76:17 79:20 80:6,14 84:5 85:6 86:10 88:11 ,12 89:6 90:4 92:22 94:21 95:14 96:2 96:20,21 97:4 98:18 104:9

106:13 ,14 110:7 110:15 ,19 111:21 112:6,21 113:21 118:12 119:3 120:17 123:22 124:20 125:20 126:10 133:4,11 133:14 134:8,20 135:5 137:7 138:18 152:7 155:18 156:6,11 157:2 159:3 160:20 161:14 162:7 163:9,17 164:2,5 ,17 165:21 167:17 172:2,16 172:20 173:9,12 173:15 ,16,17 ,20 174:2,13 176:21 178:13 ,16,19 179:2,3 ,6,14 180:13 181:1 ,3 ,4 181:5 ,12 182:4,18 184:1 185:19 195:10,20 196:3 ,5 196:18 ,20 197:1 ,3 197:8,20 202:22 203:2 206:16 207:6,7 ,20 208:2 208:19 209:3 215:10,14,15 221:5 ,5 ,11 222:1 225:19 227:18 231:19 232:5 234:10,14 235:16 235:20 236:5 ,10 236:15 ,17 ,22 237:18 238:19 241:3 ,11 242:14 243:6,11 244:2 247:14,15 ,22 248:22 255:8 258:12 262:4 263:8,9,11 ,15 272:16,17 273:2 273:18 274:18 ,20 275:17 ,18 276:1 276:14,17 277:18 278:2,6,6,17 281:7 ,15 282:13 283:5 ,16 286:1 ,5 286:11 287:2,12 289:5 290:14 291:7 292:3 293:2 293:5 295:13Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 312 297:22 298:12,16 **Gollapudi** 2:12 6:19 6:19 122:3 ,7 ,18 **GOLLPUDI** 195:11 **good** 5:13 14:1 ,10 16:19 18:10,13 20:2 21:5 ,6,8,11 21:17 ,17 ,20 24:14 24:15 26:3 33:19 34:12 38:19,20 47:14 52:16 55:19 61:13 73:16 77:3 79:10 81:2 83:1 83:10 85:9,10 94:19 95:7 ,8 99:17 100:17 103:11 105:1 115:19 130:8 144:18 147:15 155:21 156:16,18 159:22 188:10 191:2 197:10 209:7 213:13 ,14 220:22 225:7 247:17 267:1 ,15 270:8 274:8 293:21 294:2,19 **Goodman** 3:1 73:20 86:3 104:12 112:11 188:3 208:15 226:10 **Goodwin** 7:1 **Google** 87:20,21 90:9 **Gordon** 9:4,4 26:3 ,4 29:16 **gotten** 22:11 80:1 87:14 298:5 **government** 26:16 27:1 ,8,22 28:22 **graduates** 154:14 **granted** 195:9 269:12 **great** 9:13 77:22 83:16 85:18 163:1 171:21 213:8 214:1 225:3 234:2 **greater** 127:20 137:7 ,9 **greatest** 121:5 **Greg** 3:8 114:7 123:14 125:4 145:11 153:20 176:6 186:2 190:1 228:19 245:8 249:22 273:10 **Greg's** 265:8

**gritty** 72:1 109:19 **ground** 10:13 11:5 11:6,21 16:14 19:7 25:1 ,20 33:10,13 64:12 65:11 66:19 68:7 72:14 73:17 74:11 74:12 104:8 287:18 298:1 **group** 1:2 4:4,6,18 10:3 11:10 12:4 12:19,22 13:16,16 13:21 14:11 16:16 20:22 21:1 ,18,22 22:4,10 23:7 24:1 24:13 25:2,10,14 27:5 ,10,11 ,14 28:10,17 29:15 ,16 30:2,15 33:3 ,6,16 33:22 35:7 36:5 37:21 39:12,22 40:6,8,10 41:8 42:1 ,3 45:14,16 47:18 49:8,10 52:1 53:6,20 54:1 54:10 58:1 60:10 62:5 69:11 73:5 73:11 74:19,21 75:3 ,12,13 ,16,16 75:18,22 76:3 ,5 ,5 76:8,18 77:8 78:1 86:5 ,7 88:16 91:18 92:5 93:5 94:20 97:18 98:11 109:19 111:22 113:20 145:1 147:2,2 155:10,20 157:3 168:14 173:4,22 175:18 186:8 208:4 212:22 213:9 216:2 230:2 232:4 232:6 240:3 244:10,20 269:15 270:9 271:19 275:13 ,14,15 276:2 286:4 288:7 291:7 **group's** 13:3 **groups** 18:21 19:11 28:2,11 33:18 34:22 35:20 40:15 66:20 94:21 **grow** 174:13 194:6 195:7 **growing** 194:9

**guess** 22:5 33:14 39:20,22 41:13 45:15 46:16 53:10 53:10 65:11 ,14 83:5 88:19 98:18 99:1 103:2 105:2 108:13 112:6 113:12 115:14 121:12 124:4 126:11 137:10 138:16 139:8,21 143:15 158:16 160:17 175:17 176:20 178:10 183:1 186:1 189:14 196:12 208:3 ,16,22 216:2 216:6 223:14 233:8 234:5 235:10 242:21 243:13 ,20 245:13 248:7 251:7 256:21 264:10 271:2 277:20 285:9 298:7 **guidance** 19:1 124:13 280:4 **guide** 76:4 **guided** 94:4 **guideline** 50:4 275:5 **guidelines** 153:10 227:13 ,21 **guy** 6:12 267:21 **guys** 81:16 206:19 209:11 ,20 253:17 270:6,12 288:15 291:19 292:15 293:5 ,20 295:22 297:10 **H Hagerman**  5:10 **half** 51:12 130:22 130:22 133:21 134:3 142:20 197:12 208:21 209:22 218:13 222:10 225:1 ,1 265:2 273:9 **halfway** 216:21 **hall** 126:15 **hammer** 66:11 **Hanameyer** 254:13 260:6 **hand** 25:11 42:11 61:5 73:13 77:18

**handed** 286:8 **handful** 100:3 240:18 269:7 **handle** 165:19 196:8 210:9 232:13 285:13 293:9,10,10 **handler** 159:11 181:8 **handlers** 159:16 **handling** 44:14 **hands** 59:15 ,16 63:15 64:2 73:12 86:16,17 157:5 **handy** 282:5 ,16 **hanging** 170:7 **happen** 83:15 167:7 172:9 221:8 234:14 247:21 251:20 252:2 277:21 **happened** 34:4 56:16 95:3 101:14 **happening** 44:17 148:19 171:12,12 207:16,22 239:8 245:14 277:18 **happens** 44:11 171:15 ,16 172:11 177:5 277:19 **happy** 5:15 16:6 54:18 67:10 122:16 187:14 297:14 **hard** 103:20 139:13 139:14 141:7 207:2 214:13 221:5 ,17 238:18 239:14,15 259:2 270:2 **harder** 103:21 **hardest** 139:14 **Hardin** 3:10 8:22 8:22 **harking** 18:11 **Harvey** 2:21 7:8 37:19 41:3 53:3 59:13 61:22 62:13 94:12 98:13 99:3 102:9 103:14 104:13 139:15 140:5 149:2 169:7 171:20 **Harvey's** 39:4 99:13 **hat** 24:9 68:4 **hate** 59:8

**Hawaii** 48:8 **he'll** 12:22 30:1 ,7 82:18 **head** 11:20 99:5 121:13 156:20 166:16 190:8,12 190:20 191:11 212:17 253:14 288:1 **heading** 79:13 165:11 **hear** 100:20 212:14 215:9 226:2 241:6 262:21 268:8 **heard** 15:13 16:20 19:12 26:21 30:17 46:12 63:4 105:19 129:7 ,10 141:6 151:9 184:3 232:5 245:7 250:19 261:9 268:13 272:21 273:16 276:14 277:6,16 281:13 284:17 285:22 295:9 **hearing** 46:10 48:2 49:1 140:2 155:18 221:12 241:22 274:6 **Hearings** 9:5 ,7 **hearts** 291:4 **heat** 1:4 112:22 113:2 128:10 169:17 192:5 ,6,7 192:10,10 197:16 198:17 ,20,22 210:22 220:8,13 220:17 222:21 223:2 224:12 235:7 241:5 288:20 **heating** 2:16,18 7:11 151:17 198:12,12 232:8 234:19 235:4 237:7 ,8 238:17 239:2,3 242:2,12 242:13 ,22,22 255:21 **heats** 241:18 **held** 22:11 90:12 94:15 97:18 **help** 18:2 23:8 31:19 33:11 76:4 80:18 87:15Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 313 155:13 234:4 257:3 **helpful** 56:15 100:20,22 172:7 **helps** 171:21 216:8 223:2 **hey** 84:12 88:10 287:18 294:21 **Hi** 4:20 114:7 123:14 176:6 229:1 **hierarchy** 123:11 **high** 121:2,6,18 125:6 167:1 172:11 177:2,7 ,9 177:14,20 223:16 223:18 237:10 238:1 ,12 239:2 241:8 242:4 244:6 246:19 267:10 274:19 281:7 282:4 **higher** 108:12,15 ,17 112:17 117:8,20 117:21 119:12 120:5 127:18 133:15 135:1 152:9 159:2,2 160:11 ,19,21 ,21 161:15 165:3 ,4,9 166:3 168:13 174:3 179:8,9 184:20 186:11 ,13 193:5 202:12 207:20 230:21 233:5 241:15 243:7 ,7 246:14 253:6 277:15 285:12 289:3 **highest** 127:19 231:22 **HIR** 113:6 **hire** 16:10 **hired** 16:10 **history** 95:16 **hit** 11:21 214:2,7 217:6 219:3 ,4,6,6 227:6 **hitting** 215:22 **hockey** 154:15 297:16 **Hoffman** 2:4 4:20 4:21 6:5 14:16 15:13 ,21 16:8,22 17:9,20 18:5 ,15 19:4,15 34:15 ,18 36:22 37:7 38:1 ,8

38:11 46:4,8 48:17 49:3 51:10 51:17 58:16,20,22 59:4,10,13 ,16,19 59:21 60:5 ,12,16 60:19 61:2,7 ,11 61:15 ,19,21 62:2 62:7 ,18 63:2,13 63:18,21 64:4,11 64:19,22 65:5 ,8 65:15 ,20 66:13 74:14 78:8,22 79:10 83:18,22 84:5 86:20,22 91:21 94:6,9 218:19 219:4 221:17 ,21 222:3 ,9 225:3 228:13 297:19 **HOI** 139:7 **hold** 94:1 **hole** 283:4 **home** 90:11 292:10 **honest** 212:15 288:15 **honestly** 20:19 72:1 **hooked** 153:2 **hooking** 153:2 178:9 182:9 282:22 283:5 **Hootman** 2:13 8:3 ,3 42:19,19 43:5 70:11 ,19,21 71:4 89:6 90:15 95:1 110:14 118:8 119:8,11 ,14 120:10,13 ,16 121:1 131:13 132:2 136:3 ,6,11 136:17 ,21 138:4 138:13 ,20 139:12 142:6 143:2,11 145:11 ,15 ,17 ,20 146:2,8,17 147:12 147:22 148:13 149:8 150:7 ,9 153:5 154:16,20 159:19 171:1 ,4,15 171:17 172:4,8 174:7 ,18,21 175:4 175:12 176:17 177:1 ,19 178:3 181:20,22 182:11 183:3 190:22 194:3 ,12,15 195:4 197:10 198:7 ,11

198:22 199:22 200:6,12 201:1 ,4 201:10 205:22 206:15 209:13 221:4 234:10 253:21 260:3 282:17 ,20 283:2,7 283:7 286:5 ,10 290:8 294:12,15 294:18 295:4 298:14,18 **hope** 11:9,14,19 12:15 13:22 19:5 19:16,18 65:16 100:4 104:1 ,11 156:17 202:3 204:15 212:21 237:6 257:9 274:22 275:17 **hopefully** 15:8 16:10 17:2 43:15 61:16 103:22 104:9 106:16 118:22 229:2 251:16 280:2 **horsepower** 125:15 127:5 ,12 **hot** 99:15 ,17 235:6 **hour** 129:16 156:13 197:12 217:12 242:12 273:9 292:15 296:6 **hourly** 247:3 **hours** 224:22 240:11 ,21 241:20 244:5 247:5 297:4 **house** 251:13 **housing** 5:10,17 15:2 **Houston** 264:4 **HR** 159:21 **HRI** 89:17 93:11 126:11 217:16 218:1 220:12 294:11 **huge** 114:22 115:1 180:6 263:11 **humidity** 247:3 ,9 247:11 ,12 **hundred** 56:4 61:21 151:18 **Hunt** 7:21 **Hurst** 2:14 7:16,16 34:10,17 ,17 49:22 49:22 89:10,13 ,21 90:3 254:4,4

**hypothesis** 136:10 203:15 **I i.e**  127:7 **idea** 16:19 20:14 34:13 40:3 56:4 74:20 100:14 114:19 130:17 159:22 216:12 228:1 236:16 261:5 ,8 274:8 288:1 **ideas** 287:7 291:21 **identified** 229:5 275:16 291:17 **identify** 11:9 250:12 **IEER** 96:4 98:19,22 99:9 116:14,17 117:5 ,8,18 122:6 122:8 132:19 201:16,20 217:4 223:11 242:16 281:5 **IER** 109:14 112:14 112:17 ,20 113:5 ,8 114:14,20 115:1 117:2,21 118:5 121:16 122:4,5 131:7 132:21 134:17 135:1 ,4 139:13 191:18 212:4 220:1 **ignore** 130:7 246:4 **imagine** 199:11 207:4 227:12 **impact** 97:11 161:17 218:8 226:15 ,22 227:5 237:1 242:15 244:6 264:13 265:17 291:10 293:18 **impacts** 109:14 225:14 272:2 289:13 **impartial** 17:22 **implementing** 27:19 **implications** 257:12 **implied** 54:3 **important** 5:8 12:14 12:17 13:17 17:14 29:7 37:18 52:8 52:11 ,17 ,17 66:21 93:19 96:13 99:14 99:19 131:1 140:12 149:16

162:16 183:18 ,21 213:21 231:6 244:3 276:2,4 291:12,13 293:6 296:5 **impossible** 265:7 **improve** 12:5 **improvement** 243:6 296:20 **in-person** 84:15 87:18 **incent** 35:16 **incentive** 63:1 **inch** 163:10,10,14 177:11 179:1 181:11 182:10 185:11 ,16 **inches** 159:17 160:3 160:19,20 168:17 172:1 ,1 ,2 184:20 274:19 284:22 **include** 52:22 60:17 183:7 190:3 256:6 288:3 **included** 102:15 181:5 **includes** 64:1 102:12 **including** 50:13 51:15 78:15 91:5 277:14 **inconsistent** 69:21 **incorporate** 67:12 68:19 255:22 **incorporated** 256:16 276:8 295:20 **incorporating** 102:22 158:6 256:8 **incorporation** 70:18 **incorrect** 49:9 229:18 231:10 **increase** 174:2 193:12 215:3 226:17 235:22 **incremental** 133:15 214:18 **incurring** 278:14 295:19 **Independence** 1:9 **independent** 5:2 **indicate** 98:2,5 130:12 **indicated** 278:19Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 314 **indicates** 130:8 258:19 276:18 277:1 290:20 **indicating** 17:10 **individual** 31:14 47:3 ,4 125:22 **individuals** 25:10 40:12 41:1 52:21 67:19 69:1 ,19 **indoor** 125:5 126:20 126:22 127:5 ,14 143:22 144:5 240:9 247:5 ,8,12 247:13 **industry** 11:17 193:4 197:4 211:16 224:18 **influence** 26:17 **info** 82:7 **infomercial** 14:17 **inform** 23:9 **information** 15:9 22:17 82:11 109:5 109:18 111:4 112:10 127:3 128:9,13 130:8 132:11 ,15 139:9 139:10 140:8 158:13 188:13 210:20 211:20 215:6 223:1 ,4 224:12 256:17 266:14 280:3 284:15 286:3 **informed** 49:8 61:1 **inhibit** 69:3 **initial** 29:10 104:1 125:6 236:15 **initially** 101:18 250:19 280:18 **inoperable** 250:6,8 **input** 15:18 24:13 97:22 98:7 105:12 109:10 110:3 ,6,8 111:18 126:21 128:8 143:16 153:10 158:9,12 168:14 170:9 183:9 186:1 ,8 187:10 190:15 227:9 232:5 ,19 244:19 274:8 281:12 293:8 **inputs** 124:11 ,12 127:14 168:21 188:6,7 **inside** 14:11 186:21

**insights** 15:10 **install** 165:17 251:17 **installation** 184:17 185:2,3 280:6 293:8 **installations** 257:18 **installed** 162:8 251:21 253:19 **installing** 178:5 **instance** 233:17 257:8 **instances** 234:18 **institute** 2:17 ,19,20 7:11 9:9 22:15 28:9 **integrated** 135:20 **intended** 111:15 270:4 279:20 **intent** 105:18 165:19 168:2 **inter-fan** 237:11 **interaction** 196:16 **interchange** 225:16 **interest** 18:1 28:1 28:12,18,21 ,22 29:4,21 30:10 **interested** 215:8 227:9 **interesting** 67:13 139:2 203:1 204:10,12 227:1 295:1 **interests** 31:2,2 **interim** 291:18 **intermediate** 207:5 208:5 213:19 221:2 **internal** 188:7 255:21 256:1 285:5 **International** 2:14 **interpolate** 207:5 252:4 **interpret** 63:5 **interspersed** 41:7 **intertwined** 225:11 **introduce** 4:13 6:3 8:1 10:18 62:9 **introduced** 144:1 **introducing** 144:4 **introduction** 10:3 **introductions** 4:10 4:15 **invested** 200:15 **investigation** 273:4

**investment** 200:14 214:19 **Investor** 7:18 **invite** 89:22 **involved** 15:7 97:12 108:3 112:5 176:14 247:2 268:19 **involves** 16:18 **IOU's** 3:9 **IOUs** 34:21 38:4 40:14 82:15 99:12 129:20 162:12 **irrespective** 58:13 **issue** 28:7 34:8 44:13 ,14,14 45:17 55:13 63:5 103:17 107:3 108:13 113:10 125:18 127:16 128:7 143:20 159:4,5 160:18 161:8 164:1 ,3 ,13 169:10 170:1 175:8,9,10 175:10,18 187:17 188:2 190:7 191:9 191:12 192:4 201:12 202:8,16 207:2 224:9,14 225:10 231:5 236:1 243:22 244:22 266:12 268:2 276:2,4 284:12,20 288:20 289:1 ,14 291:3 292:17 ,18 293:4,6 295:7 ,9 296:6 **issues** 10:4 11:10,12 11:12,18 13:15 ,18 17:3 23:6 28:12 29:21 47:13 56:11 78:1 98:6,9 103:16 105:21 127:21 129:2 157:9,20 161:20 161:22 196:21 197:19 224:10 227:4 229:5 284:6 284:9 292:12,14 294:4,6 295:17 **issuing** 68:13 **it'd** 242:7 **it'll** 19:9 69:10 119:9 185:15 214:12 225:1 237:2 243:11

251:16 291:10 **Italy** 7:22 82:17 **item** 126:19 128:19 129:6 224:19 273:12 285:9,9 **items** 232:2 **J J**  2:14,20 3:3 **jail** 139:18 **Jakobs** 2:15 7:12,12 122:21 ,21 **James** 2:7 8:13 219:16 **Javier** 6:2 91:5 ,16 **Jeremiah** 89:21 **Jill** 2:13 8:3 42:19 70:11 110:14 118:11 120:4 136:6,8 143:2,6 147:19 149:3 153:22 170:16 171:17 174:7 196:13 199:15 283:7 294:10 **Jill's** 172:14 217:22 253:14 **Jim** 139:16 **Joanna** 2:10 211:18 214:6 215:20 220:11 280:7 **job** 6:13 76:20 178:14 181:6,13 **Joe** 5:10 **John** 2:3 ,14 4:2 5:10 6:5 ,8 7:16 15:14 18:8 19:12 24:20 28:6 29:22 29:22 33:7 ,17 ,20 34:10,17 35:18 38:17 43:18 49:12 49:22 52:4 58:3 63:8 70:7 71:7 75:1 78:14 80:5 84:12 88:10 89:21 97:14 111:1 141:10 148:13 155:17 189:15 199:11 226:2 254:4,20 297:6 **John's** 30:7 177:19 **join** 58:6 **joke** 296:11 ,15 **joking** 296:12 **jump** 156:11 207:21 208:6,10 **jumping** 168:11

207:10,12 **June** 11:8 22:6,17 24:5 78:11 ,12,12 78:12 89:4 90:9 90:12,12 93:12,12 93:12,13 ,13 111:2 **justifiable** 208:22 209:1 **justified** 20:13 **K k**  239:7 **Karen** 7:13 82:11 **Karim** 2:18 139:7 **Katie** 3:7 9:10 154:10 236:13 255:18 271:2 **keep** 14:22 20:9 35:16 62:6 103:20 112:12 150:4 186:18 194:9 196:3 204:20 226:18 261:6 **key** 11:9,18 13:15 20:10 23:6,20 166:9 188:14,17 222:21 266:12 **keying** 238:21 ,22 **kicked** 95:19 **kicks** 293:1 **kind** 5:3 6:3 14:19 16:2,17 23:5 29:8 29:18 30:14 32:1 39:4 49:9 53:8 54:10 64:7 73:16 75:15 ,21 84:19 87:9 89:1 90:16 92:11 93:16 95:19 100:3 ,10 110:5 116:19 117:14,17 119:5 120:3 123:10 131:9 135:14 137:13 152:5 157:5 163:7 165:11 177:6 185:18 187:6 189:4 198:4 204:18 213:15 220:8 223:3 227:18 235:2 236:1 239:6 243:21 249:19 268:2 271:9 287:8 287:15 289:5 291:14 296:3 **kinds** 5:6 31:17Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 315 227:18 235:11 **knew** 131:8 **know** 5:22 9:13 ,18 10:14 11:11 ,22 14:14 17:1 ,13 18:12,21 19:16 20:5 ,7 ,15 21:6 22:6 25:7 ,11 29:12 32:13 33:5 33:7 ,17 34:4,8,18 38:16,22 39:15 40:8 41:16 43:14 43:17 ,19,22 44:3 44:3 ,5 ,7 ,12,16 45:4,4,12,13 47:9 47:13 48:3 ,8,10 48:20 50:7 ,10 51:2,3 ,6 52:8,15 52:16 53:9 54:22 55:9 61:15 65:3 66:1 ,3 ,4 67:3 72:2 72:9,18,22 73:8 73:17 74:1 ,2,10 74:20 75:8,20,20 75:22 76:1 79:12 80:20 81:3 ,14 82:6,12,16 84:3 85:14 88:21 90:16 90:18 92:22 93:3 94:19 95:3 ,18 97:18,19,22 98:3 99:15 100:7 ,11 ,12 100:19 103:3 ,5 104:5 ,6,18 105:2 105:21 106:4,10 106:17 107:7 ,10 108:4,7 ,8 109:5 ,7 109:8,9,11 ,13 ,14 109:18 110:6,17 110:22 111:1 ,2,12 113:21 ,22 115:8 115:17 ,19,20,21 116:1 ,5 ,8,15 117:19 118:12,19 120:7 122:1 ,13 ,15 122:16 123:5 ,10 124:8,15 ,19 125:4 125:8,12,13 126:4 127:17 128:16 129:4,21 130:15 130:16,20 131:2,5 131:17 ,20 132:10 133:1 ,12 134:14 135:18 137:4,5 ,9 138:1 ,5 ,7 ,17 ,20 141:16,17 ,21 142:13 143:11 ,16

146:6,9,12,14 148:20 149:10 151:20 152:6,7 154:7 ,10 155:2,2 155:3 157:18 158:13 159:7 ,11 159:12 161:6,21 163:5 ,20 164:10 164:13 ,16,20 165:4,9 166:17 167:2,5 ,6 169:3 170:4,6,9 173:2 173:19 174:4,4,5 174:13 175:5 ,8,8 175:13 ,17 177:6 178:1 ,8,9,19 179:3 ,16,20 182:6 183:21 184:1 ,9 185:3 ,16 186:2,6 187:12 192:22 193:3 ,4,10,17 195:1 ,21 196:8,9 196:20 199:7 200:1 ,13 203:2 205:1 ,7 ,14,20,20 206:11 ,12 207:4 207:16 209:13 210:15 ,16,19,21 210:21 211:5 212:4,15 ,15 213:8 213:13 ,14 214:4,9 214:10,16,20 215:3 ,8,8,17 216:3 ,9,10,13 ,21 216:22 217:22 218:1 ,3 219:17 220:8 222:17 223:9 225:15 226:4 229:9 230:20 233:21 234:18 236:16 237:2 238:9,14,18 238:21 239:14 241:11 ,12,14 243:15 244:11 248:10,20 249:14 251:6,7 ,7 ,10 253:4,18,18 255:10,17 256:18 257:6 258:12 259:3 260:7 ,11 ,19 260:22 262:7 ,12 262:14,15 ,16,20 264:11 265:3 ,3 ,15 266:17 267:13 268:19 270:10

271:9 272:7 ,10,14 274:1 275:7 ,14,22 279:12 281:1 ,8 282:2,10 283:12 284:6 285:4 286:2 286:11 287:7 ,14 288:12,14,22 289:9 291:3 292:3 292:21 ,22 293:3 293:16 294:7 ,21 295:8,10,12,15 ,21 296:12 297:14 298:8 **knowing** 13:9 131:4 **knowledge** 45:16 148:7 **known** 188:12 **knows** 89:17 **Kristen** 254:13 **Kristin** 260:6 **L L**  2:11 **Lab** 9:11 236:14 **labor** 5:4 **Laboratory** 3:5 8:10,12 **LaFont** 94:16 **laid** 210:9 **laissez-fair** 16:4 **land** 122:9 **land's** 149:12 **landing** 198:16 **language** 17:10 77:5 ,17 **large** 102:11 112:13 125:12,12 148:17 148:18 150:1 210:22 211:11 ,13 233:9 235:3 243:11 255:3 262:10,17 264:8,8 **larger** 134:9,10,11 146:21 ,22 148:9 148:14 154:13 158:4,21 161:4 165:15 180:3 186:10 245:12 258:20 264:7 ,12 **late** 26:14 268:5 292:15 **laugh** 296:13 **Laughter** 50:12 55:2 60:22 226:6 226:9 245:5 254:9 295:3 296:14 **launch** 107:2

**law** 275:1 **Lawrence** 3:4 8:9 8:11 9:10 236:13 **laws** 26:14 27:2 **lay** 295:22 **layman's** 68:2 **layout** 117:16 **lays** 275:12 **LBNL** 3:7 ,8 114:8 123:15 153:11 156:1 183:6 228:20 255:18 **LCC** 215:16 265:21 276:21 293:9 **lead** 5:18 **leak** 194:15 **leaning** 142:13 **leap** 184:10 **learn** 80:16 **learning** 80:15 **leave** 77:7 89:2 93:2 134:1 215:18 252:15 ,21 **left** 10:10 48:9 222:5 245:17 247:19 269:1 292:18 **legal** 71:15 100:3 ,6 102:5 156:19 202:21 294:5 **legally** 101:22 **legwork** 96:15 **lends** 12:11 176:7 **Lennox** 2:14 7:16 34:17 50:1 254:5 **let's** 25:17 50:9 60:7 66:18 116:13 122:14 130:10 160:2,7 197:6 206:22 209:4 213:16 232:20 247:18 290:12 291:16 297:9 **Letter** 67:15 **letting** 47:15 **level** 101:15 ,16 108:6,9 113:16 114:15 ,20 116:6 116:14 117:12,15 118:3 ,20 120:1 121:6 122:2,4,8 123:1 ,2,4,9 124:21 125:6 126:8 127:11 134:17 146:6 166:3 168:3 ,4,6

170:10 173:19,20 174:20,22 192:19 198:15 202:12,14 202:22 203:3 206:6,6 207:5 208:5 213:2 214:18 216:17 ,20 218:13 223:19 224:9 227:6 246:20 254:22 255:15 270:22 277:7 ,13 ,19 279:17 281:15 283:21 294:9 **levels** 102:18 ,20 107:11 ,15 108:13 108:18 116:20 117:18 ,21 118:9 118:22 119:11 ,13 119:18 120:6,7 ,8 121:3 124:11 127:19 133:15 134:14 135:1 ,4,4 143:21 153:15 ,18 158:3 160:12,19 160:22 161:15 165:3 ,5 ,9 166:15 174:3 176:11 192:13 ,14 202:9 208:17 209:5 ,7 ,10 213:19,20 214:6 215:9,11 216:15 218:2,3 223:22 224:1 226:17 235:17 ,18 237:15 242:16 263:15 277:15 296:22 **life** 176:9 270:17 273:1 ,13 274:10 275:20 276:12 283:14 **lift** 115:15 **light** 106:7 152:3 234:12,14 **lighting** 233:21 **limit** 40:11 41:1 102:5 225:14 237:15 **limitations** 193:21 **limited** 101:22 208:19 **limiting** 203:15 **limits** 100:8 **line** 23:17 124:19 196:10 201:13Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 316 208:2 259:19 271:21 **linear** 207:8,11 **lined** 297:8 **lines** 104:13 **linkages** 257:8 **linking** 204:16 **list** 33:15 37:5 ,6 51:18 60:2 63:19 64:9,21 84:16 93:8 284:8 **listed** 189:11 289:21 **literally** 195:4,7 **literate** 188:14 **literature** 109:6 110:20 112:10 127:4,13 128:9 177:16 189:12,18 222:20 227:17 **litmus** 71:22 **little** 11:13 13:5 25:17 44:4 56:2 62:22 67:3 69:7 69:13 70:12 79:14 84:2 87:22 98:19 124:15 127:18 130:17 140:11 141:14 142:13 151:8 154:6 157:5 163:17 176:14 181:19 191:21 192:12 195:19 204:9 206:1 211:19,21 215:22 216:6 220:21 233:19 238:16 240:8 261:4 286:21 287:22 292:2 **live** 30:20 31:1 230:21 **LLC** 3:10 **Lloyd** 251:10 262:19 **load** 107:15 109:12 144:1 150:14 151:19 152:3 183:8 230:11 231:5 ,8,10 232:8 232:12,15 ,21 233:2,4,5 ,13 ,19 234:12,14 236:10 237:22 245:19,21 246:2 247:15 ,20 247:21 248:1 ,2,6 255:8 258:2 264:6 264:9 265:11

266:15 267:18 268:14 270:4 271:5 287:13 **loads** 229:14 232:6 233:12 255:22 256:2,4 266:6,7 **locations** 254:8 **lock** 87:17 **logical** 71:19 **long** 14:20 21:16 36:4,6 81:20 107:19 139:16 180:10 228:14 259:2 267:9 **longer** 50:21 94:5 237:6 257:8 **look** 5:7 ,11 55:5 102:6 105:6 111:3 112:4 115:19 116:8 117:20 121:12,22 123:3 123:12 125:16 127:4 130:14,20 131:1 ,19 161:10 166:20 167:3 ,16 168:5 174:9 186:22 192:16 201:20 207:22 209:4,15 ,18 211:14,15 212:8 214:5 219:20 220:2 222:20 237:1 240:10 244:6 246:5 251:8 252:18 254:21 ,22 255:16 256:14 264:2 265:14,17 267:16 268:13 ,19 269:9,13 273:1 281:9 287:9 296:6 298:18 **looked** 52:6 55:3 ,4 135:9 141:21 145:8 154:11 159:12,13 166:6,7 166:8 168:18 187:5 ,9 203:10,13 203:18 212:16 219:21 249:11 258:2 269:4,4,7 ,8 **looking** 52:20 73:21 76:21 79:17 82:6 83:19 84:22 85:8 86:2 87:21 106:12 107:21 108:8 113:4,12,13

121:15 140:13 148:7 166:9 168:22 183:19 186:1 189:9 201:15 ,19 202:8 203:12 208:1 209:16 220:6,16 220:19 224:5 232:18 238:15 240:19 241:1 244:19 249:10 253:11 258:17 259:22 264:2 271:7 272:15 273:2 274:7 278:18 287:13 289:7 290:17 293:14 298:9 **looks** 16:16 52:21 85:9 116:1 172:1 212:1 ,3 266:11 268:20 290:4 **loop** 35:17 **lose** 173:16 **losing** 105:8 **loss** 161:4 **losses** 186:21 **lost** 200:19 **lot** 11:19 12:16 17:5 22:7 ,11 32:2 62:4 66:4 96:14,15 97:19 103:21 109:17 118:3 ,10 122:11 124:12 126:7 138:4 148:6 148:7 149:11 159:20 160:20 164:13 178:10,13 178:17 ,22 182:6 185:15 194:9,16 199:2 200:13 213:11 215:13 221:6 222:22 223:1 229:5 ,7 230:14 234:17 240:12 241:3 ,4,16 241:20 248:3 252:2,6 255:6,8 256:12 260:7 264:9 265:5 ,6,9 275:16 282:15 283:16 284:2,6,9 284:20 290:10 292:1 294:4,9 296:3 298:12 **lots** 14:10 119:15

148:8 235:7 **Louis** 7:5 53:11 82:6 85:11 88:2 90:16 116:18 158:15 178:7 195:4 210:4 213:5 233:7 240:8 271:7 **Louis'** 136:9 **Louis's** 283:8 **Louisiana** 246:15 **low** 109:10 125:11 126:20 128:6 130:21 136:10,13 232:9 233:1 237:15 ,16 282:4 **low-cost** 143:3 **lower** 87:22 98:15 110:2 117:8,18,19 118:3 119:13 120:7 126:22 127:12 134:4,14 135:4 143:21 144:3 ,16 152:7 ,8 152:10,11 ,17 154:13 157:14 166:15 193:5 194:15 246:11 251:16 274:20 282:9,14 **lowest** 117:3 134:18 253:10 **lucky** 6:10 **lunch** 10:16 100:15 104:6 156:14,18 224:22 **lunchtime** 156:12 241:17**M M**  2:15 **machine** 142:22 **macro** 254:22 255:15 **Macy's** 234:13 **magic** 53:13 **magnitude** 159:9 265:16 285:8 **mailbox** 36:21 **main** 35:20 119:2 200:4,8,11 276:22 **maintain** 101:3 **maintained** 247:8 **major** 24:22 64:7 227:5 **majority** 34:6 **making** 15:8 20:3 23:15 24:14 120:20 121:3 204:17 205:9 212:13 235:7 ,8 298:11 **MALE** 60:20 **malfunctions** 257:10 **man** 80:17 **manage** 41:17 44:11 **manager** 6:9 147:14 **mandate** 20:8 **mandated** 20:10 **mandates** 158:3 **manner** 28:10 113:14 114:5 **manufacture** 174:12,12 **manufactured** 5:17 137:13 **manufacturer** 23:15 103:21 109:3 112:14,16 113:1 125:22 141:7 171:14 172:15 175:6 211:10,11 214:14 **manufacturers** 118:9 119:3 ,19 139:8 140:9 142:16 158:8 165:1 ,7 166:10 184:4 193:5 194:21 195:16 199:18 ,19 209:20 211:7 214:16 223:1 ,7 251:4 282:11 295:18 **manufacturing** 2:15 3:1 5:10 7:2,13 15:2 194:3 **mapping** 96:4 148:11 **March** 4:7 12:4 229:6 **marching** 103:19 140:17 221:22 **Mark** 9:19 **markers** 33:13 **market** 129:22 136:20 138:10 155:8 167:11 ,14 172:21 173:11 ,17 176:12 183:2 **Marketing** 6:22,22Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 317 **marketplace** 123:3 173:13 174:10,13 **Marshall** 7:21 82:11 ,15 ,16 **Mary** 2:6 8:1 9:12 **Maryland** 210:16 **mass** 260:16 **massive** 43:8,16 **match** 117:5 189:6 **matches** 257:1 258:9 **matching** 188:11 ,14 188:21 **material** 97:8 126:4 295:20 **materially** 69:21 **math** 50:9 53:10 133:13 206:1 ,22 224:21 248:22 249:1 **mating** 254:8 **matter** 58:14 72:9 137:4,5 152:9 163:16 167:8,8 175:19 201:3 272:5 281:8 **matters** 29:2 75:18 281:8 **Mauer** 2:10 211:18 211:18 220:11 ,15 220:18 221:1 280:7 ,7 **max** 202:12,19,19 202:22 204:1 ,11 **maxed** 177:6,6 **McCrudden** 3:11 7:14,14 42:4,9,16 44:22 45:18,20 46:15 48:12 54:21 54:22 56:8,20 57:1 ,4,8,12 59:6 59:11 79:15 ,17 80:1 83:14 **MCRUDDEN** 55:3 **mean** 47:12 50:6 54:15 ,16 55:3 56:4 66:2,2 70:8 72:20 74:17 77:5 78:1 81:8,20 90:16 91:18 94:3 104:4 107:12 109:16 111:7 ,11 111:16 112:3 ,21 114:21 115:15 ,18 117:2,6,8,9 122:3 122:10,15 ,16 124:8,9 125:2

132:4,10 133:11 135:17 137:3 ,10 142:7 146:8 149:9 153:2 154:19 155:2,8 157:19 160:17 163:19 164:4,10 166:15 168:9 169:18 ,19 170:9,13 175:7 ,9 175:10 176:19,20 178:1 180:8,10 181:7 182:8 183:1 184:2 186:7 ,10 187:11 189:5 ,14 189:17 194:10 195:15 196:10,21 198:16 200:1 ,12 204:22 207:22 208:21 209:8,9 212:7 214:1 215:7 215:13 216:3 ,8,9 218:7 ,10,18,21 219:8 220:6,10 227:21 231:1 233:14 234:2 236:15 238:22 239:12 242:11 243:9,11 ,16,21 249:15 ,17 251:7 251:18 253:18 ,19 254:15 257:5 258:11 259:15 ,16 264:5 267:22 268:14,18 271:3 271:14 273:22 277:6 279:2,7 280:11 ,17 282:14 283:22 285:12 288:15 289:6 292:1 293:12 294:1 **meaning** 128:21 **means** 17:5 21:15 21:21 63:9 68:2 68:15 111:11 ,16 134:18 135:6 141:17 144:6 170:21 209:15 239:4 **meant** 41:6 212:17 243:1 294:13 **measure** 226:16 **measurement** 109:12,14 **measurements** 158:9 190:3

**mechanical** 241:5 **mechanics** 260:7 **Mediation** 5:1 **mediator** 5:14 18:17 **mediators** 11:3 **medium** 253:12 **meet** 38:21 118:22 120:8 157:16 172:17 197:19 198:14 231:8 233:13 236:9 275:21 279:1 288:9 **meeting** 1:1 2:1 4:4 10:22 19:5 ,6 23:2 25:7 29:13 34:1 35:9,10,11 38:14 38:21 39:15 42:11 42:21 49:14,14 59:9 75:17 84:15 89:17 94:15 96:16 97:16 100:19 104:9,10 116:10 157:4 215:14 227:20 229:6 260:15 262:19 270:14,21 286:13 289:15 291:18 294:20 295:1 ,7 297:13 299:1 **meetings** 5:7 11:8 11:11 ,17 18:22 19:8,9 22:10 34:6 35:21 50:21 78:5 87:18 97:13 ,18 98:4 112:5 ,17 270:16 275:15 ,15 293:11 **meets** 31:1 71:15 **Meg** 3:2 7:3 72:6 88:6 222:6 253:3 **member** 9:9 12:21 19:20 25:10 27:11 34:3 35:20 37:21 38:7 ,14 40:2,8,9 42:12 62:12 63:8 72:21 **members** 9:18 11:22 18:9 25:6,6 30:2 40:6 41:8 42:1 43:10,12,20 49:19 50:14 51:16 74:14,15 75:7 ,7 76:2,5 ,6,8 78:1 81:10,16,22 82:1

298:4 **Memorial** 84:21 86:9 **memorialize** 65:1 74:12 **memory** 149:4 **mention** 15:1 255:19 **mentioned** 5:16 20:22 24:8 33:5 75:1 97:14 111:1 127:2 153:20 186:16 266:5 **mentioning** 211:21 **met** 232:21 **metal** 293:20 **metals** 194:18 **metering** 150:10 **method** 24:3 117:13 203:11 233:3 234:8,20,20 244:21 247:1 ,22 248:5 287:20 **methods** 23:22 123:6 147:18 189:5 243:2 244:20 245:2 275:16 **metric** 102:10,22 **metrics** 101:6,8 **metro** 89:19 **Mexico** 86:4 **Meyers** 7:13 **MIAs** 10:1 **Michael** 85:10,10 88:2 **micro-channel** 192:5 ,9,10,18,22 193:13 194:4 195:17 198:8 200:16 **micro-channels** 192:11 193:6,8,20 193:22 194:9 197:5 199:4,17 **mid** 26:14 **mid-June** 4:8 **mid-week** 286:13 **middle** 116:14 135:3 225:2 **midpoint** 218:3 **midst** 32:14 **might've** 144:2 **migrating** 133:2 **mike** 7:7 37:13 40:8 58:11 79:4 84:13 106:19 217:2,5 ,6 219:15 259:6 282:20 294:15 ,18 294:22 295:4 298:14 **mikes** 206:8 **Milslak** 7:10,10 81:8,13 ,19 82:4 93:6 131:16,22 132:4 **mind** 6:13 13:6,12 20:9,17 43:2 56:19 63:12 80:22 87:17 88:20 98:14 112:13 139:4 141:12 158:17 163:22 186:18 229:4 249:9 294:4 **minds** 73:19 106:3 **minimum** 20:11 112:20 119:14,22 147:7 166:20 260:16 **minimums** 119:15 **minor** 188:7 **minus** 205:21 219:17 ,21 **minute** 56:19 182:3 293:15 **minutes** 24:17 47:11 66:15 156:13 224:22 225:1 228:15 **Misiak** 2:16 **missed** 35:11 79:5 190:22 **missing** 82:11 **mission** 271:11 **mistake** 44:16 180:5 **mistaken** 56:12 106:4 **Mitsubishi** 2:11 8:6 39:3 47:19 53:21 235:15 **mix** 130:18 131:21 141:4 144:19 **mixture** 140:21 183:1 **mode** 238:5 ,17 241:4,8 242:20 281:6,7 282:15 ,18 **model** 116:19,20 119:21 120:2,20 129:11 130:22 131:8 133:4,9Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 318 134:15 135:20 138:6 140:11 168:21 169:1 172:18 183:13 186:16,22 187:5 203:20 204:15 217:22 220:10 224:10,14 229:12 245:14 248:9,14 248:16 263:10 268:20 272:7 293:9 **modeled** 137:1 222:14 236:19 262:2 **modelers** 270:6 **modeling** 199:9 205:1 224:15 227:3 ,4 228:2,21 229:3 246:20 262:6 268:12 **models** 107:11 117:12 119:4,15 119:19 120:8 121:9 131:6,8 132:9 133:11 134:3 ,9 135:9 140:4 157:16 159:12,13 168:17 170:12 187:9,14 193:1 ,18,19 201:18 ,21 202:2 204:6,6,7 210:15 215:2 217:10,13 217:14,15 ,16,21 220:4,6,12,19 222:18 ,20 223:5 ,6 223:17 ,17 ,18 227:10 235:12 249:3 ,4,9 254:12 266:19 272:1 ,18 272:19 **moderate** 152:4 **modest** 101:17 **modification** 293:17 **modifications** 68:12 **modified** 270:18 273:5 **modulating** 143:10 **modulation** 143:4 **moment** 6:3 44:12 77:16 85:8 100:6 106:8 214:10,21 **moments** 15:14 **Monday** 79:18,21 88:21 89:1 93:3 **money** 182:16,21

**monopolizes** 41:15 **Montello** 9:1 ,1 **monthly** 255:1 ,16 **months** 22:20 **morning** 4:9 5:13 20:2 26:3 79:20 235:5 240:13 296:19 **mornings** 241:17 **motor** 127:11 128:11 177:7 ,9,14 177:20,21 178:2 179:5 ,10 182:4 185:1 ,6,19 186:10 **motors** 127:7 177:2 177:8 **move** 22:1 36:2 64:20 80:15 ,18 96:17 106:5 ,19 126:19 128:18 129:5 140:18 157:21 163:1 165:4 169:16,22 170:17 177:8,13 187:17 190:5 192:2 218:20 221:1 224:19 225:7 277:12 291:14,16 **movement** 113:2 **moving** 20:22 40:5 41:22 49:6 112:19 128:5 ,19 139:21 143:19 150:13 157:8 169:19 170:18 191:9 201:11 237:18 **multi-regulated** 197:2 **multiple** 103:18 117:11 ,20 118:4 133:10 188:19 204:6,7 276:14 **multiples** 41:5 **N N**  4:1 **naivety** 169:9 **name** 5:14 8:19 26:3 ,5 61:16 97:9 **nameplate** 127:12 **narrow** 218:11 **Nashville** 149:10 **nation** 230:22 **national** 3:4 8:10,12 9:11 243:10 246:9 **Natural** 3:2 7:3

**naturally** 62:21 **nature** 12:19 148:19 **Navigant** 2:7 ,8 8:13 8:16 97:8,10 111:22 114:15 132:16,18 156:20 168:12 184:19 186:12,14 **Navigant's** 140:17 **NDAs** 21:15 **near** 291:3 **nearest** 102:4 **necessarily** 77:15 78:17 110:17 112:21 130:16 162:21 166:18 167:2 180:13 196:14 224:18 251:19 259:4 265:4 284:3 ,19 **necessary** 21:21 30:4 38:6,13 68:13 94:1 111:18 141:1 165:2 257:1 **NEEA** 158:15 178:7 210:4 233:7 **need** 4:17 17:3 19:10 20:7 22:12 23:10 24:10 32:6 36:3 39:9 41:10 49:14 50:10 58:6 59:8,11 ,12 67:14 74:2 77:15 82:22 90:13 91:19 98:17 99:15 104:2 106:4 106:4,7 ,9 110:15 110:18 111:12 112:12 113:10 121:16 128:1 129:21 137:1 140:20 158:2,22 164:21 166:3 167:15 168:14 169:8 173:21 175:16,16 176:3 177:1 178:14 184:19 185:10 188:4,5 193:14 202:19 205:1 211:15 214:5 215:17 267:4 268:9 269:13 ,15 270:9 272:4 288:10 290:6,11 290:12

**needed** 74:8 165:22 184:13 195:9 227:8 230:12 245:13 293:14 **needing** 74:11 **needs** 20:9 31:3 167:14 182:15 185:16 195:15 226:13 ,20,22 268:12 **negative** 17:12 67:18,21 68:4 **negatively** 67:20,21 69:2,19 **negotiate** 13:10 100:9 102:2,4 202:22 272:11 291:8 **negotiated** 14:20 15:4 16:9 22:19 60:11 101:13 ,14 102:7 **negotiating** 19:6 21:7 22:8 **negotiation** 11:4 13:19 20:5 22:22 24:11 43:7 101:8 295:15 **negotiations** 12:1 21:5 210:1 **negs** 62:7 **nests** 254:3 **neutrals** 17:21 **never** 24:5 120:2 259:9 **new** 66:3 105:7 147:9 167:14 172:15 ,17 ,21 178:12 180:2 196:17 201:8 203:3 237:3 248:11 255:22 256:6 257:17 266:7 267:12 276:21 **newer** 179:5 195:18 **nice** 48:15 100:14 238:8 **nicely** 176:8 **Nicholas** 2:16 **Nick** 7:10 81:13 126:12 131:15 **night** 297:15 **nine** 92:18 **ninth** 91:1 ,6 92:10 92:13 ,14,16,17 93:15 **nitty** 72:1 109:19 **no's** 52:6 56:1 ,1 61:5 ,10 77:21 **no-economizer** 261:7 **nobody's** 20:4 **nodding** 40:19 **nods** 274:15 **nominal** 206:19 219:21 **nominally** 182:2 **nominated** 95:2 **nominating** 41:1 **non-blast** 249:3 **non-economized** 245:17 246:11 ,22 258:14,20 260:12 261:17 266:20 271:1 **non-economizer** 261:11 **non-gas** 220:13 **non-linear** 215:4 **non-working** 41:8 **nondisclosure** 223:7 **nonvoting** 75:12 **nonworking** 40:6 **noon** 90:17 ,18 **NOPA** 202:11 **NOPR** 11:16,19 67:12 68:11 69:10 70:19 71:1 ,10,11 71:12,16,19 72:10 95:20 96:8,16,18 97:14,17 98:1 107:5 108:3 126:20 127:16,18 141:12 143:22 187:18 203:7 231:9 237:12 248:17 274:11 275:19 **NOPR-phase** 190:10 191:3 ,13 210:14 **NOPRs** 14:4 69:8 71:2 **normal** 60:8 63:9 **normally** 42:15 132:8 149:18 **North** 48:13 79:13 **northern** 264:12 **Northwest** 7:5 **note** 34:15 91:4Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 319 260:18 **noted** 162:2 **notes** 67:6 124:2 141:16 292:16 **notice** 13:5 22:16 26:20 33:8 69:14 296:13 **noticed** 66:20 **notion** 35:3 65:12 **notwithstanding** 13:10 80:21 **nuances** 236:18 **number** 30:13 41:4 49:13 50:8,20 52:11 53:13 55:6 55:16 58:15 77:7 108:3 ,4 109:10 131:9 132:9 140:4 142:8 149:5 160:11 167:19 183:10 208:22 209:1 218:1 226:14,18,21 227:16 229:21 230:11 232:14,18 233:4 240:11 245:12 250:15 253:1 ,13 258:8 272:8 **numbers** 87:21 109:15 121:13 126:1 140:12 142:9 146:6 163:2 163:9 168:20 171:7 180:16 204:3 212:11 220:10 232:16 250:11 ,12 251:3 252:22 255:4 265:4,17 266:2 270:7 272:11 278:22 297:11 **O o**  4:1 233:4 **objections** 92:18 **objective** 270:16 **obligated** 17:21 **obligation** 17:20 202:20 **obligations** 202:21 **observation** 52:20 64:15 **observe** 139:2 **observer** 22:18 **obtain** 127:4 174:4 **obtained** 112:10 124:16

**obviously** 14:7 23:14,16 52:17 65:1 68:16 80:16 80:22 94:17 99:4 131:19 228:4 236:17 291:15 **occur** 45:21 179:15 270:21 **occurring** 28:11 234:21 **odd** 13:6 **OEMs** 170:17 **offer** 31:9,16 52:13 177:7 200:8 **offering** 31:9 200:5 200:11 **office** 6:16 9:2,4,7 26:6 28:6,11 148:17 149:22,22 159:15 168:19 178:15 234:6,8 235:3 264:9 **officers** 26:7 **official** 26:5 29:2 46:17 49:14 **officially** 39:21 44:9 47:15 60:4 **officials** 26:16 **offset** 172:1 **oftentimes** 162:19 **oh** 59:21 121:4 201:10 **okay** 4:20 9:13 ,22 10:1 ,21 ,22 12:3 14:12,22 15:22 16:2 20:5 23:4,5 24:14,20 25:22 30:11 32:3 36:17 37:7 38:8 40:5 41:22 42:8,22 47:8 49:3 ,6 51:14 51:18 53:20 54:7 54:14 58:10,21 59:12 60:6,10 61:21 62:18 63:2 63:13 ,18,22 64:4 64:5 ,7 ,22 65:9,15 65:20 66:18 68:9 70:19 71:4 73:12 74:13 75:19,22 76:7 77:3 ,4,5 ,17 77:22 78:4,10 79:6,11 81:12 82:4,10 83:2,8,10 83:16 84:9 85:3 86:15 ,21 87:1 ,3

87:19 88:5 ,18 89:5 90:10 92:17 92:18,21 95:7 ,14 108:20,21 112:2 115:22 116:11 ,15 117:7 ,22 118:21 119:12 122:3 ,13 124:17 ,22 126:17 126:18 135:22 137:11 138:16 141:16 142:4,6 143:19 145:17 146:17 148:1 152:12 154:1 155:20 156:11 ,16 159:6,8 163:19,21 164:15 166:3 185:2 187:15 ,16 190:4 191:9 194:13 196:17 198:11 ,13 201:11 209:19 213:12 218:12 219:5 ,14 220:15 ,22 222:3 223:11 ,13 228:5 230:19 235:10 237:5 240:1 249:20 254:19 262:9,13 267:22 269:3 270:5 274:16 285:16,21 286:10 287:18 ,19 290:9 293:13 297:21 298:18 **Oklahoma** 246:14 **old** 24:9 180:2 203:6,21 248:11 **older** 180:10 **once** 13:15 38:1 54:12,20 81:20,21 87:11 140:6 143:7 155:19 162:8 170:15 177:17 197:3 208:21 237:3 239:22 278:11 **one's** 21:4 230:2 276:3 284:12 287:18 295:5 **one-by-one** 106:16 **one-third** 250:19 **one-year** 72:7 ,12 73:7 ,13 **ones** 56:13 60:5 90:15 106:6 119:13 134:9

159:2 204:8 212:6 213:4 252:5 269:3 269:9,11 293:21 **open** 13:11 105:16 105:21 109:17 125:2 128:1 170:9 170:13 227:21 260:20 **opening** 12:3 50:4 66:2 **openings** 170:5 171:4 **opens** 265:9 **operate** 144:18 259:21 **operated** 127:11 236:20 256:10 **operating** 180:18 225:18 232:7 259:17 268:21 274:19 **operation** 190:11 232:1 **opinion** 12:9 44:4,5 119:19 171:16 291:5 **opinions** 28:16 **opportunistically** 174:9 **opportunity** 26:21 28:15 199:6 296:20 **opposed** 84:20 86:8 115:12 159:21 160:19 164:7 230:17 231:12 264:22 283:18 **opposite** 182:17 **opt** 13:20 **optimally** 260:22 **optimistic** 107:6 108:8 **optimize** 197:3 ,17 **optimized** 121:7 167:2 197:21 **option** 23:19 45:6 114:2 149:21 199:21 ,22 244:16 261:3 262:3 **options** 92:8 139:22 210:1 249:6 291:11 **order** 53:2 99:16 107:16 108:5 127:14 128:12 129:22 153:14

158:22 161:17 165:17 172:10 177:2 178:12,13 180:22 181:8 190:18 ,20 196:3 198:14 201:21 225:14 227:16 241:21 243:12 244:1 ,5 282:14 291:13 **ordering** 180:21 **orderly** 16:17 **orders** 140:18 221:22 **Oregon** 241:13 **organization** 35:7 **organizations** 28:4 35:16 **oriented** 26:21 28:8 **original** 181:18 210:12 **originally** 210:7 **ought** 139:6 187:16 219:20 **outcome** 101:8,14 146:19 244:2 268:7 **outcomes** 210:3 **outdoor** 192:7 ,11 197:8 247:11 ,12 **outer** 102:5 **outgrowth** 71:19 103:4 **outlier** 56:5 ,6 **outline** 25:19 **outlined** 78:10 **outlines** 80:14 **output** 234:17 235:8 238:3 242:1 244:14,17 257:22 258:1 **outside** 40:12 62:2,8 75:2 102:5 238:9 239:5 294:6 **outsiders** 41:8 **oven** 195:6 **ovens** 201:1 **over-the-phone** 39:7 **overall** 184:14 263:7 272:2,13 289:5 **overcome** 160:6 169:9 177:2 186:20Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 320 **overestimate** 119:4 **overestimated** 178:11 **overestimating** 289:11 **overestimation** 227:7 **overlap** 95:3 **overlay** 121:16 **overlooking** 297:4 **overnight** 221:8 **oversize** 178:18 182:19,22 185:6 **oversized** 182:4 185:1 ,19 **overtime** 85:7 **overview** 11:1 ,4 20:6 **Owned** 7:18 **owner** 150:7 **ownership** 150:9,10 **P P**  4:1 **p.m** 156:15 228:18 299:2 **Pacific** 2:6 **package** 1:3 158:3 ,4 **packet** 286:8 **packing** 251:15 **page** 32:16 67:15 143:20 192:2 **paid** 5:3 **pairs** 17:11 **Palm** 247:17 **Pam** 9:1 **panacea** 196:4 **paper** 251:6 260:7 **parachute** 35:13 **parameter** 188:12 234:7 **parameters** 100:8 158:10 162:4,9 169:11 ,16 188:15 188:17 235:4 **parent** 12:20 27:5 ,7 27:12 28:15 43:19 55:21 56:2 **parking** 17:5 164:13 284:6,9,20 290:10 292:14 294:4,9 **parse** 255:16 **part** 11:16,22 17:6 18:8 23:21 24:4 27:4,19 33:6 41:17 67:13 75:21 78:5 83:1 118:2

123:1 127:9,17 131:1 140:17 144:1 175:7 179:16 180:21 181:21 185:2 191:17 195:22 198:5 201:14,14 228:21 232:12 233:1 ,5 244:3 257:5 263:2 **partial** 287:3 ,5 **participant** 51:2 **participants** 18:6 64:2 **participate** 89:8 227:2 **participated** 34:22 97:18 **participating** 25:8 62:15 65:13 262:21 **participation** 40:5 **participatory** 19:20 **particular** 26:11 28:9 29:20 78:20 99:2 102:1 103:9 109:13 144:4 150:21 193:19 197:16 203:16 211:9 215:5 216:10 242:18 248:6 268:22 293:7 **particularly** 73:8 99:14 108:14 117:19 119:7 264:8 **parties** 15:5 31:2 **parts** 30:15 84:18 176:12 260:4,5 **party** 67:18 69:1 ,18 **pascals** 187:7 **pass** 40:8 277:12 297:12 **passed** 21:2 27:18 67:10 **passions** 16:18 **path** 52:13 110:1 125:8 144:3 ,6,8 165:11 177:4,13 193:2 220:9 262:4 268:11 269:17 271:14 273:2 278:8,9 280:19 284:5 **paths** 103:18

123:18 125:10 155:6 156:4 276:15 278:2,4,7 **Paul** 2:11 8:6 39:3 47:19 49:8 53:20 53:21 82:19 105:10 109:22 162:1 165:18 179:12 199:14 235:15 243:14 262:18 287:1 289:19 **pause** 22:13 71:7 **peak** 122:1 **penetrating** 149:6 **penetration** 266:3 ,9 **people** 9:14 12:13 17:2 26:15 ,20 35:4 36:10 43:9 44:15 ,20 49:13 50:8,20 51:22 52:9 58:14 65:16 66:6 74:8 75:2,21 76:9 77:10 84:2 96:14,15 97:19 112:4 116:3 117:11 118:15 120:22 126:15 ,22 134:15 135:5 138:2 142:5 178:5 180:4 193:4 250:13 251:19 255:19 282:11 ,21 291:8 292:10 293:15 294:2 297:8 **people's** 73:18 291:4 **percent** 19:17 21:3 42:2 49:16 50:7 ,8 50:10 51:12 56:3 56:4 61:20,21 121:14 133:3 144:17 145:9,9,10 150:13 ,14,16 151:4,4,18,19,21 152:4,12,15 ,18 154:5 155:9,9 160:5 ,9 167:11 ,18 167:18 175:9,10 175:10,12 203:19 204:4 205:13 ,21 207:17 211:22 219:17 225:21 229:19 230:10 232:12 238:2

243:12 244:1 245:11 ,13 247:9 248:5 250:5 ,7 ,13 250:15 ,16 252:11 252:14,15 ,18,21 253:9,10,12,13 ,16 259:16,16,20 263:17 264:5 ,6,7 264:22 272:9,17 280:12 281:15 282:3 ,19,19 289:8 **percent/30** 145:9 **percentage** 78:14 145:6 147:21 153:18 154:13 155:14 161:19 163:15 164:7 167:13 ,17 185:8 253:6 266:20,21 278:20 **percentage-wise** 160:2 **percentages** 153:21 154:9 155:19 277:5 279:22 **percolating** 157:2 **perfect** 25:22 249:8 **perfectly** 58:5 248:15 ,21 272:19 **perform** 289:11 **performance** 99:15 162:22 183:7 184:19 191:20 192:21 226:16 235:20 288:22 289:2 **performed** 231:8 **performing** 182:13 182:15 **period** 42:12 70:3 72:7 **permanently** 104:20 **permits** 11:14 **person** 31:19 34:5 88:13 221:7 275:21 **personal** 29:3 **personally** 34:7 ,7 54:17 80:20 87:12 163:19 **perspective** 28:5 53:4 54:16 66:22 71:10 127:22 128:17 141:17 144:22 175:22

176:2,4,7 215:15 215:21 226:11 **persuaded** 56:19 **persuasive** 55:14 **pertains** 72:3 **Pete** 6:17 **PG&E** 7:19 8:2 9:12 **phase** 126:20 127:16,18 191:17 202:11 **PHCC** 57:4 **phenomenon** 255:2 **philosophy** 200:16 **phone** 41:19 43:12 93:5 145:7 158:17 203:9 245:8 ,9,16 250:13 297:8 **physics** 198:18 **pick** 123:8 **picking** 209:16 239:5 **pictorial** 18:16 **piece** 180:1 219:6 242:18 252:10 **pieces** 187:6 **piggybacking** 210:20 **place** 13:19 21:17 33:19 39:5 48:15 166:2 181:14 241:2 257:3 282:5 **placeholder** 87:16 **places** 170:6 206:10 **plan** 111:17 277:10 277:21 **planned** 95:8 276:11 **planning** 156:4 168:11 **plans** 86:10 **platform** 206:10 **play** 55:7 109:12 138:22 **playing** 162:14 **plays** 135:19 **Plaza** 94:16 **pleasant** 21:9 **please** 8:18 24:1 170:15 206:8 **pleased** 14:19 15:16 **pleasure** 16:12 298:21 **plod** 287:13 **plot** 223:10Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 321 **plug** 216:12 **plugged** 36:1 39:2 **plugging** 191:18 **plus** 205:21 219:17 219:20 **PNL** 159:12 187:5 187:14 266:19 272:19 **podium** 14:14 97:5 **point** 6:1 12:18 14:1 14:2,12 21:10,17 21:19 27:14,16 31:12 34:1 36:9 43:17 46:14 52:15 65:2 66:9 71:9 74:3 82:16 90:5 90:14 92:22 94:5 95:10,12 96:18 97:3 98:18 100:5 104:17 105:11 106:2 110:11 114:21 121:1 123:16 132:13 136:9 147:5 158:14 163:15 165:10,11 ,12,14 170:5 172:15 184:10 188:10 189:10 191:2 193:18 197:3 203:7 208:7 ,11 213:3 215:19 216:10 218:8 221:2 223:15 239:22 242:9 278:11 280:17 289:12 292:19 293:13 295:12,13 298:3 **pointed** 108:2 **pointing** 157:12 **points** 66:19 167:10 188:17 ,20,22 189:8,19 191:20 199:2 212:13 239:20 260:21 **policies** 26:18 **policy** 46:21 ,22 244:2 291:7 **poll** 80:13 85:8 **populate** 209:22 **population** 115:11 115:12 185:9,14 **portion** 34:11 37:18 95:13 ,21 ,22 129:9 147:15 173:11 196:6 216:22

242:5 269:20 279:18 ,19 **portioning** 140:7 **Portland** 240:11 241:2 **pose** 175:17 196:13 **position** 31:4 50:4 52:16 54:9 69:20 171:10 263:19 **positioning** 169:13 **positive** 210:2 **possibility** 124:5 **possible** 81:10 83:12 105:6 142:2 157:4 159:1 162:18 163:4 175:4 182:13 208:12 212:11 228:4 243:3 256:7 256:19 273:5 **possibly** 23:8 45:21 81:9 174:3 ,21 176:5 177:1 **post** 74:6 243:18 249:7 258:6,15 261:5 ,6 269:14 **post-process** 244:17 **post-processing** 243:17 287:20 **posted** 239:21 **potential** 27:20 28:7 45:10 51:7 99:22 101:8 158:2,10 164:20 178:1 197:12 226:15 **potentially** 93:13 124:9 144:15 151:11 153:10 158:8 186:3 ,9 193:16 215:9 234:20 244:21 293:3 **power** 109:10 115:20,20 125:14 126:20 127:6,15 128:6,8,12 186:11 186:13 190:18 210:9 237:13 ,19 239:1 273:19 274:4 **powers** 168:12,13 **practice** 148:6 **preamble** 67:22 68:13 69:5 70:2 **precise** 203:17 **preclude** 46:11

**precluded** 105:14 **prefer** 85:12 86:7 **preferable** 55:17 **preference** 44:9 66:12 **preferred** 58:9 **premium** 167:1 **prepared** 98:21 **prescriptive** 102:12 102:15 **present** 18:19 19:2 39:6 47:4 49:20 270:17 276:9 **presentation** 25:19 28:13 116:6 126:14,16 128:14 128:14 276:13 **presented** 13:18 98:1 244:15 245:16 246:21 249:6 254:16 279:1 **presenting** 273:17 **presents** 258:22 **pressure** 56:3 158:10,19 159:9 159:10,18 160:1 ,3 160:5 ,11 161:10 161:11 ,18,19,20 163:14,22 168:9 168:15 ,21 173:18 178:13 180:16 181:11 ,15 183:15 184:20 185:11 186:11 ,13 187:1 190:3 ,8,12,20 191:12 226:19 227:14 275:6 284:18 285:2,12 293:22 **pressures** 160:9 161:9 162:3 168:13 169:2 178:12 179:21 212:8 273:20 **presumably** 139:5 **presume** 292:5 **presumption** 36:14 **pretty** 12:7 16:16 66:2,21 81:21 99:8 102:7 109:17 118:5 119:17 137:19 166:13 205:16 235:6 237:16 241:11 250:18 282:16

292:15 ,17 ,22 293:21 **prevailing** 212:20 **prevalent** 256:9 **Prevention** 9:2 **previous** 34:22 49:7 64:8 72:14 111:21 246:22 **previously** 22:11 51:19 67:19 69:1 69:19 228:2 264:3 **price** 134:20 **pricing** 293:21 **primary** 34:5 ,13 40:2 276:7 ,10 **principal** 267:9 **prioritize** 289:20 291:16 **priority** 289:3 ,13 **privately** 101:13 **probably** 6:1 10:13 18:9 22:11 25:18 31:10 50:17 55:7 55:16 56:15 66:21 77:14 81:1 97:20 103:21 117:3 ,10 119:17 120:20 123:11 ,11 129:17 134:16,19 136:2 137:19 146:19 147:9 154:22 155:1 159:8,16 163:21 165:15 178:13 179:3 ,6,10 182:1 198:2 199:16 206:18 207:15 220:9 228:3 235:2 236:7 238:11 239:5 243:12 248:9 249:20 256:15 257:9,16 267:21 267:22 268:1 271:14 274:7 276:1 279:18 282:7 284:7 287:16 289:6,7 292:8 **problem** 31:5 40:21 50:19,22 51:5 79:6 80:3 85:17 110:12 134:1 ,6 151:22 160:16 189:7 196:6,15 197:2 239:14 258:22 268:1

286:15 **problems** 62:20 194:17 257:13 265:9 **procedures** 159:21 186:18 **proceed** 183:5 **proceeding** 24:4 **proceedings** 13:12 39:2 **process** 4:11 5:18 5:19,21 10:4 11:4 12:6,9,11 13:14 15:5 17:15 ,17 ,21 18:6 20:5 26:10 26:17 27:19 29:8 29:11 30:6,10,16 32:11 ,19 33:1 ,2 36:1 ,9 40:7 ,11 ,17 40:22 41:1 ,17 56:6 60:11 65:2 67:4,9 69:9 70:6 72:9,11 81:21 102:16 157:1 180:14,21 213:21 243:18 261:7 274:4 **process-type** 298:1 **processing** 249:8 258:6,15 261:5 ,14 269:14 **produce** 121:5 199:19 200:13 **produced** 120:1 ,2 **product** 28:14 73:1 109:6 112:10 127:4,13 128:9 129:15 131:5 ,14 131:14,17 146:11 147:13 172:17 173:10 177:16 189:11 ,18 196:21 206:4 222:20 227:17 **production** 123:13 129:21 195:7 198:2 224:1 **productive** 237:3 **products** 13:7 ,9 22:7 23:14 123:3 123:12 179:8 199:20 **profile** 116:21 118:7 120:18 121:8 122:8 210:9Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 322 **profiles** 107:9,12 109:1 113:14 116:9 120:6 125:21 126:5 249:11 **program** 6:9 94:11 **programming** 260:21 **progress** 104:3 **progression** 166:9 **Project** 2:9,10 10:20 **projected** 99:9 **promise** 284:4 **promulgate** 15:15 **promulgating** 15:10 **proper** 153:14 **properly** 61:3 144:18 206:14 279:22 **proportion** 184:12 **proposal** 47:12 55:19 72:17 96:9 159:11 261:20 265:9 275:12 284:18 286:4 **proposals** 13:7 **propose** 32:10 291:1 **proposed** 13:5 31:4 33:9 67:22 68:12 69:4 96:4 198:15 244:12 **proposing** 245:2 261:19,21 262:1 **proposition** 201:9 **prospective** 28:19 **protecting** 254:11 **protocols** 19:7 **prototypes** 159:14 187:11 267:2,16 **provide** 17:22 21:12 21:14,21 26:7 31:21 74:9 89:18 110:16,18 111:18 131:4 140:9 168:12 184:19 211:19 224:11 227:20 273:19 274:3 279:13 280:3 ,5 284:7 289:16 **provided** 22:1 71:15 97:16 109:3 116:8 124:14 126:4,5 ,7 128:15 **provides** 283:17 **providing** 158:9 183:6 254:7 275:13 **provisions** 105:4 **proxies** 46:17 ,20 47:16 **proxy** 38:22 42:10 42:14,17 ,20 43:1 43:11 44:10 46:8 46:21 ,22 47:21 48:6,10,21 63:2 63:12 83:3 ,4 **pseudo** 6:3 **PTAX** 57:3 ,6,13 **public** 1:1 14:6 19:2 25:9,11 40:9 62:10,10 68:10,17 68:17 ,19 97:16 295:7 298:8,9,9 **publication** 22:16 70:10,13 ,17 97:17 **published** 95:20,22 97:15 188:14 **pull** 182:2 221:8 **pulled** 217:16 **pulley** 178:2 **pulling** 238:11 242:7 **pump** 127:10 **pumps** 1:4 43:7 53:8,18 56:21 192:10 **pure** 218:7 **purpose** 10:22 246:18 **push** 85:18 158:3 179:2 213:12 **put** 55:8 80:12 87:16 90:1 94:7 94:17 96:5 ,7 100:12 103:13 105:21 133:13 134:21 152:21 165:16 167:15 176:21 178:22 180:6 192:16 198:9 209:19 210:1 216:13 223:10 239:2 244:12 258:6 281:3 ,7 289:18 294:6 297:3 ,14,22 298:2 **puts** 114:15 **putting** 17:4 195:22 251:20 281:2 282:13 283:10 **Q qualitative**  133:12 **quality** 140:8 **quantifiable** 275:18 **quantitative** 289:16 **quantities** 224:1 **quarter** 186:17 207:1 **query** 154:7 **question** 22:13 32:5 32:9 33:14 36:8 36:14 70:7 72:7 80:4 81:5 ,15 83:5 84:12 90:12 98:14 100:11 101:2,20 104:18 105:1 106:20 107:18 109:11 115:14,15 115:19 119:10,14 120:19 123:20 124:7 129:11 130:1 ,3 133:8 138:20 139:8 140:11 142:15 149:3 150:12,14 153:22 154:4 157:19 164:16 175:17 176:1 ,20 183:21 189:14 193:7 196:13 197:10 202:4 208:13 213:9 214:2 216:2,17 218:21 230:8 238:4 246:15 249:21 251:5 263:6 270:5 274:17 278:1 281:20 294:19 **questions** 5:20 25:12 30:9 31:7 72:5 85:10 100:4 100:16 103:11 104:5 157:1 189:13 190:21 205:6,8 **quick** 22:21 40:6 66:10 81:21 102:7 193:7 272:6,14 278:1 **quickest** 64:16 **quickly** 5:1 14:16 16:1 80:5 100:22 106:16 212:11 228:3 295:14 **quietly** 166:13

**quite** 14:21 32:4 99:5 129:3 160:22 174:3 196:12 203:6 205:2 208:7 208:10 241:12 **quorum** 13:15 16:14 25:12 41:22 42:2 49:6,8,11 ,13 51:5 ,22 59:8 60:13 63:21 ,22 64:1 78:2,18 92:10 **quotes** 55:8 **R R**  4:1 **raise** 31:8,8 61:5 73:13 77:18 223:14 **raised** 30:18 45:1 187:18 295:17 **raises** 99:5 **raising** 114:16 269:21 **Ramirez** 6:2 **randomized** 191:15 **range** 113:9,9 114:22 115:1 116:14 120:11 125:11 130:21 191:14 205:16 217:14 260:22 279:21 280:1 **ranged** 260:20 **ranking** 289:16 **rate** 21:3 175:2 248:18 249:20 251:6,9 252:19 253:6,16 258:8 260:16 266:9 270:1 272:18 **rated** 107:7 108:9 168:13 **rates** 253:9 259:10 260:19 261:1 **rating** 108:12 112:15 123:6 **ratings** 107:8,19,21 108:15 112:9 **ratio** 195:5 197:15 201:5 **re-look** 181:4 **re-optimize** 169:20 **reach** 16:5 31:6,19 32:13 92:10 111:5 195:16 267:8 288:4

**reached** 33:7 102:14 118:20 **reacted** 126:2 **reactions** 126:1 **read** 41:19 43:21 67:16 96:2 217:8 275:9 294:20 **reading** 48:6 72:14 212:21 **readout** 87:14 **real** 12:12 13:19 112:9,9 118:21 127:3 214:2 293:11 **real-world** 161:13 **realistic** 127:1 161:8 162:9,17 236:21 273:7 **realistically** 178:8 **reality** 107:6 233:14 236:3 251:18 274:13 **realize** 198:9 **really** 5:18 13:22 16:4 20:20 24:14 24:15 26:19 31:3 31:3 32:10 47:21 51:3 66:4 72:22 80:12 85:9,17 96:20 97:6 100:1 109:12 116:3 118:12 124:22 135:6,16 136:11 136:16,18 149:13 152:20,22 154:9 159:7 160:20 161:18 162:15 163:16 164:3 169:8 201:20 202:19 203:2 206:18 215:17 221:15 223:2 225:7 231:13 ,14 234:1 239:13 244:1 246:4,5 248:8 249:7 262:21 265:3 ,15 267:6 279:5 ,10 285:5 287:8 293:2 295:5 ,6 **reason** 18:13 20:19 21:4 31:21 50:2 109:8 148:10 189:19 200:7 ,8,9 202:2 203:14Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 323 225:7 271:22 289:10 **reasonable** 132:14 192:16 205:20 212:6 251:9 252:11 266:16 270:7 290:5 **reasonably** 266:10 **reasoning** 210:11 **reasons** 121:2,9 143:13 200:10 265:16 284:3 **Recalling** 56:17 **receive** 68:17 **received** 144:22 280:20 281:12 **recognize** 45:8 62:22 103:6 **recognizing** 102:11 172:19 **recollection** 108:11 **recommend** 35:1 208:4 **recommendation** 14:3 153:11 **recommendations** 13:3 27:13 ,17 **recommended** 69:3 **record** 10:18 14:6,6 20:3 32:19 43:22 43:22 48:7 ,13 56:15 67:7 ,17 **recorded** 34:16 **records** 14:9 **recuse** 20:16 **red** 97:1 290:20 **redesign** 172:16 196:20,22 199:1 ,2 **redesigned** 164:21 **reduce** 174:2 246:2 247:15 271:4 **reduced** 274:18 **reduces** 275:7 **reducing** 143:22 225:14 229:21 **reduction** 190:17 ,19 230:11 ,11 248:5 255:7 264:6 266:15 **refer** 171:7 **referenced** 24:21 **referred** 269:14 **referring** 111:20 164:9 **refinements** 156:7 **reflect** 232:22 265:22 274:10 280:1 **reflected** 232:4 276:21 **refresh** 229:3 **refrigerant** 188:20 188:22 189:8,19 226:15 **refrigerate** 188:17 **refrigeration** 2:17 2:19 7:11 53:9 **reg** 62:7 **regarding** 26:8 143:15 168:9 **regardless** 74:10 **regards** 246:1 **region** 245:20 246:12,14 267:8 **regional** 56:10 57:10 245:19 **regionalization** 136:5 **regions** 215:5 246:13 267:5 **regulated** 15:6 **regulations** 26:18 **regulatory** 71:10 95:16 **rehearse** 97:6 **reheat** 235:3 **related** 101:20,21 121:18 161:21 251:12 **relates** 100:10 191:11 **relation** 244:13 **relationship** 99:18 161:12 200:21 201:20 207:8 **relative** 134:11 159:9 171:10 247:9 263:19 275:19 285:8 288:21 289:2 **relatively** 101:17 232:9 **relevant** 68:11 **reliable** 205:16 **rely** 75:5 277:4 **relying** 118:18 **remain** 165:3 **remaining** 37:20 **remarks** 12:3 **remember** 32:8 52:11 174:9 194:21 210:7 279:19 283:22

**remembering** 147:20 281:11 **remind** 255:19 **remote** 64:1 **removed** 98:17 288:20 **repair** 260:8,8 **repaired** 259:9,12 259:18 **repairing** 259:11 **repeat** 128:14 **replace** 174:14 197:13 ,13 258:14 258:16 261:18 262:11 **replacement** 158:5 165:14 167:11 184:18 195:22 197:20 **replacements** 168:6 **replacing** 92:15 ,16 144:11 174:10,11 180:9 278:14 **replicate** 236:3 **report** 55:20,21 56:14 74:20 75:13 132:5 156:9 179:19 288:6 **reporting** 118:15 **represent** 29:6 105:19 116:16 127:10 266:10 279:20 **representative** 6:11 28:10 113:17 ,17 114:20 115:13 ,16 115:17 116:4,7 ,12 119:6 121:18 122:9,10,15 ,19,20 124:20 125:21 129:17 133:6 134:19 135:3 162:18 ,21 163:3 212:6 **representatives** 4:16 18:21 27:9 27:21 29:5 **represented** 27:2 279:22 **representing** 7:18 8:2 28:3 34:21 115:12 **represents** 115:11 202:19 **request** 239:18 240:4

**require** 167:10 168:4,7 184:7 198:20 280:9,13 **required** 23:1 105:13 158:12 166:6 185:3 227:6 270:22 283:21 **requirement** 39:1 105:5 **requirements** 24:8 71:15 152:21 260:16 **requiremtns** 127:8 **requires** 151:14 264:20 **research** 30:4 186:3 273:4 **reserve** 298:8 **reserving** 45:20 **residential** 57:17 101:6,12 **resign** 51:8 65:14 65:19 **resolution** 9:2 16:5 37:1 **resolve** 13:18 129:4 205:7 244:22 **resolved** 5:11 98:6 98:10 129:3 205:8 229:7 230:3 285:2 293:4 **resolving** 188:1 **Resources** 3:2 7:4 **respect** 197:5 **respond** 222:12 **response** 68:10 88:17 92:20 96:16 105:2 106:21 128:4 157:22 192:3 202:6 226:1 280:20 **responsibilities** 26:8 26:12 31:18 32:21 **responsibility** 19:16 **rest** 11:8 73:15 161:9 273:10 **restrict** 73:5 **restrooms** 10:8 **result** 124:18 125:1 156:2 183:11 232:11 233:3 293:18 **resulting** 230:17 **results** 32:19 78:9 107:4,8,19,22 108:8,12,15

156:10 161:14 162:17 176:9 188:9,18,20 191:15 215:16 221:15 225:21 230:10 268:14 270:17 273:1 275:13 276:9,10 289:14 **retail** 233:9,11 ,17 234:9 **retailer** 148:18 **retails** 234:10 **retrofit** 163:8 **return** 138:7 169:12 169:14,22 170:5 170:19 187:3 **reverse** 233:20 **reversed** 210:21 211:2 **review** 108:5 228:2 268:10 **revise** 240:16 **revised** 109:16 123:16 239:19 273:2,19 275:13 **revising** 230:9 **revision** 107:7 112:7 129:1 142:3 144:2 157:15 233:3 **revisions** 97:22 98:2 270:19 275:12 276:11 **revisit** 145:2 **reweighting** 266:4 **Rheem** 2:15 7:12 122:22 **RIF** 95:19 **right** 4:16,17 6:7 9:22 10:7 22:6 25:17 35:12 36:16 38:1 ,2,17 ,20 39:9 41:16 43:1 44:13 45:17 ,22 47:6,11 47:15 48:2,7 50:10 51:17 54:10 56:1 58:16,20 59:22 61:2,11 ,19 63:13 65:5 ,8 66:6 70:21 71:13 ,20 72:13 78:4,16 81:18 83:10 84:17 85:2 87:9,13 89:19 93:18 99:8Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 324 101:4 102:18 103:4 106:9 107:1 110:19 111:22 114:9,22 115:10 115:16 116:13 ,20 117:1 ,17 118:8,19 119:15 ,17 122:5 126:12 129:5 ,10 130:4,13 131:12 131:15 136:17 ,19 137:20 142:10 145:16 147:3 ,4 148:14 151:1 ,7 152:13 153:3 155:5 ,6 156:3 ,4,6 157:7 161:13 ,17 162:20 166:22 167:4,15 ,20 168:4 170:6,10 172:18 173:6,13 ,17 ,20 175:5 ,15 176:1 177:15 178:3 179:19 180:11 ,15 182:13 ,17 ,21 183:15 ,16,17 184:15 ,17 185:7 185:10,15 186:5 187:10 189:22 199:20 207:9,14 208:6,9 209:10,22 210:1 ,3 211:14 212:22 215:14,18 218:8 220:13 ,18 221:10 222:18 223:13 224:7 225:4 227:16 233:19 236:6,8,18 238:7 ,13 239:10 239:13 242:2,6,12 242:13 ,19,20 243:22 244:22 245:18 248:10 253:13 ,20 257:18 258:12 259:1 ,9,16 263:22 264:1 ,3 ,8 264:17 ,18 268:21 269:15 ,17 ,22 270:17 271:7 ,11 273:14 276:3 279:5 ,9 281:11 283:1 284:2,12 285:7 ,17 ,20 286:16 287:12,21 288:12,21 289:11 292:7 ,9 293:11 296:10 297:8 **right-hand** 105:12

**rightful** 188:1 **rigid** 204:14 **riser** 171:22 **risk** 44:18 **RM** 135:14 **road** 24:3 104:20 258:12 **Robert** 3:3 **role** 5:21 10:3 25:4 25:8 27:10 32:22 33:15 ,16 55:7 **roles** 26:11 **roof** 134:22 149:16 165:15 172:9 **rooftop** 23:15 148:8 180:6 251:13 **room** 1:8 6:6,8,12 10:10 12:16 13:11 20:13 ,18 21:10 22:5 39:10 40:4 52:21 81:3 83:21 85:21 86:16 87:2 89:3 ,10 91:1 96:14,15 97:19 111:1 165:7 181:9 215:18 242:10 **rooms** 90:12 **Rosenquist** 3:8 8:9 114:7 ,7 123:14 145:7 ,13 ,16,18,22 146:5 ,16 147:1 148:2 154:10,18 155:5 156:3 168:8 168:22 169:6 176:6 184:16 185:5 186:5 228:20 229:1 230:13 231:1 234:5 ,17 236:5 237:5 238:14 239:10,15 240:1 ,6 240:8,16 241:22 242:11 ,17 244:9 245:15 250:4,9,21 255:10 258:11 259:15 260:6,15 261:13 ,22 262:12 262:14 263:1 264:1 ,18 265:6 267:8 268:16,22 269:6 270:15 271:18 272:21 273:11 ,16 274:22 275:11 278:5 280:11 281:11 ,18 283:13 284:17

285:7 ,11 ,17 ,20,22 286:18 287:6 290:13 ,17 ,20 293:7 294:3 **Rosenstock** 2:20 9:8 9:8 22:14,14 23:4 296:18 **roughly** 215:11 217:3 248:5 **round** 104:22 192:5 192:17 ,21 195:13 199:4 **rounds** 104:16 **route** 178:20 **row** 98:14 126:19 **rule** 5:8 11:3 15:6,8 15:8,10,16,17 18:2 23:14 33:9 47:12 64:12 65:11 65:21 68:19 69:10 70:4,20 71:3 ,14 71:17 72:11 95:22 173:14 **rulemaking** 5:17 12:17 13:5 14:20 15:4 16:9 20:15 23:9 27:6 29:7 33:1 60:11 70:4 70:17 95:19 104:22 202:21 **rulemakings** 12:8 14:7 22:19 127:10 **rules** 11:5 ,6 14:5 ,9 16:14 19:7 25:1 25:20 26:13 ,18,19 26:19 27:2,20 28:1 ,21 ,22 30:10 31:18 33:10,14 41:10 52:12 53:8 54:10 64:7 ,8 66:19 68:7 71:2 72:14 73:17 74:11 74:12 102:22 104:8 227:13 ,18 287:18 298:1 **ruling** 295:11 **run** 44:19 98:7 100:21 106:13 150:4 152:7 ,8,10 160:10 198:1 221:22 265:4 274:2 282:9,14 283:11 **running** 11:21 26:8 152:3 ,3 181:9 232:11 ,12 233:13

234:12 238:11 282:19 283:4 285:12 **rush** 61:4 **Rusty** 3:1 7:1 73:19 73:20 86:3 104:12 112:11 114:21 117:14 120:14 122:13 170:18 188:3 189:4 206:11 208:15 226:10 **Rusty's** 115:7 121:16 **S S**  4:1 **Sachs** 2:21 7:8,8 37:19,19 41:3 ,3 62:13 ,13 ,19 98:13 98:13 99:3 ,3 102:9,9,19 103:2 103:14 139:15 ,15 140:5 142:15 143:6,14 149:2,13 169:7 170:15 171:2,8,20 172:6 **safe** 254:7 **safety** 178:22 **sale** 157:17 **sales** 118:13 119:20 121:12,14,16,17 121:18 ,22 122:2,8 130:16 131:4,10 173:11 265:17 266:2 294:11 **Sammy** 6:21 **sample** 220:1 243:10 265:8 267:10 271:1 ,1 273:6 **sampling** 267:3 **San** 7:19 **sanction** 44:10,18 44:19 **satisfaction** 111:4 **satisfactory** 271:19 **satisfy** 247:10 **save** 182:16,21 263:21 **savings** 99:17 105:5 133:16 137:7 174:2 235:22 242:18 243:8 263:17 264:22 272:3 ,9 289:6 **saw** 117:10 130:20

217:21 269:12 **saying** 31:14,16 36:15 39:1 45:9 46:20,20,21 47:3 47:20 56:7 62:12 68:18,21 89:7 90:21 91:11 102:17 111:7 114:1 117:6 120:5 131:10 135:15 137:11 ,22 146:10 150:15 152:5 154:20 155:2 182:10 196:14 198:15 202:4 204:19 206:11 230:9 232:19 233:10 241:7 242:21 254:6 256:21 269:17 272:13 283:1 ,12 285:10 290:3 291:14 **sayings** 291:11 **says** 15:21 16:10,22 69:12 74:17 91:18 105:12,13 106:17 110:1 ,2,5 ,6 142:4 152:16 189:21 242:1 253:15 293:12 **scale** 192:19 205:13 205:14,19 209:9 209:10 219:7 **scaled** 265:21 **scales** 205:15 **scaling** 191:7 205:13 267:19 **scanner** 98:22 **scatter** 223:10 **scenarios** 48:3 **schedule** 4:7 11:8 11:11 19:10 24:15 45:2 78:5 80:21 84:20 85:18 90:14 95:8 **scheduled** 92:6 **scheduling** 11:13 34:11 66:11 **scope** 103:5 294:7 **scrap** 261:12 **screen** 80:11 **seagulls** 254:2,8,11 **sear** 101:7 **Seattle** 241:2Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 325 **second** 25:8 32:6 71:8 84:2,6,10 88:16 89:11 92:15 101:19 104:17 169:13 201:12 210:5 214:17 222:10 225:18 **section** 168:10 233:18 ,19 **sections** 87:10 169:18 **see** 6:1 11:15 14:1 15:16 17:3 ,9 21:20 22:13 25:14 30:16 33:3 ,12 39:15 41:2 50:2 59:1 ,1 61:9 64:5 66:13 84:15 87:12 94:6,8 96:8,22 99:2 102:3 105:6 106:6 118:13 121:17 135:18 140:20 160:16,18 161:20 162:8 169:11 172:18 ,19 172:20,20 176:9 183:11 206:22 207:1 ,22 221:15 226:7 227:14,15 228:15 234:21 236:6 252:22,22 255:4,7 258:8,9 266:2,20 267:14 269:12 272:6 275:18 281:9 287:5 ,15 289:17 292:13 293:17 297:7 **seeing** 68:9 69:17 84:14 85:6 149:14 156:8 227:9 232:7 234:18 249:13 269:21 271:6,8 274:15 281:19 298:19 **seen** 14:4 16:17 182:6 255:5 **sees** 187:2,3 ,3 ,4 **segments** 167:21 **seize** 296:20 **select** 113:17 122:1 135:11 211:6 **selected** 117:7 157:13 **selecting** 113:16 **selection** 130:11 135:2

**selections** 116:7 126:4 192:16 **sell** 139:18 253:18 260:4,5 **sells** 122:13 **send** 89:21 **sense** 18:7 ,16 19:18 21:22 23:16 37:9 45:3 46:16 75:19 76:13 109:9 160:1 191:16 195:20 211:9 214:15 218:5 ,16 223:14 245:22 246:20 263:8,12 279:7 287:15 289:1 **sensitive** 21:13 134:20 138:21 252:6 **sensitivities** 276:6,7 **sensitivity** 124:21 125:3 137:3 140:11 175:15 ,16 176:8,17 ,18 183:10 184:11 236:16 244:4 252:17 276:1 293:10 **sensor** 257:10 **sent** 35:7 43:21 230:1 232:3 239:20 240:2 **separate** 84:18 101:20 161:21 164:14 225:13 256:13 **separately** 201:16 **September** 95:21 **series** 254:22 **serious** 28:7 181:5 **serve** 16:11 229:22 230:12,18 232:14 **served** 64:11 232:20 **serves** 38:22 **Service** 5:2 **servicemen** 172:10 **serving** 225:13 233:11 **sessions** 227:3 **set** 26:13 40:10,22 42:2 64:1 72:14 90:5 95:10 108:14 108:18 112:20 157:9 162:4,10 175:19 189:19 200:20 201:3

211:20 222:3 242:9 251:22 255:6 260:21 271:10 273:14 276:10 288:13 ,14 291:17 293:11 296:7 298:3 **sets** 106:2 190:1 232:17 **setting** 19:6 **settings** 252:1 **settle** 5:4 203:2 **settled** 218:22 **seven** 138:8 241:15 **seventies** 26:15 **Seventy** 51:12 **shaking** 212:16 253:14 **shape** 73:9 113:14 **share** 90:5 95:10 118:15 129:22 136:20 155:8 173:17 239:21 298:2 **shared** 251:4,6,11 **sharing** 12:16 **sheet** 67:4,5 ,8,12 68:1 ,16 69:6,11 70:3 ,14,18 293:20 **ship** 182:6 183:3 ,4 251:2 **shipment** 135:18 140:3 ,10 **shipments** 148:4 154:17 294:12,13 **shipped** 250:14,16 251:11 ,14 259:8 **shipping** 186:10 251:15 **shop** 10:14 **shot** 89:14 115:11 **show** 10:1 58:22 59:13 63:15 64:2 73:12 78:18 86:16 86:17 116:7 119:20 124:22 125:20 127:19 156:9 160:20 182:1 217:15 227:17 250:1 264:22 267:9 270:2 279:15 294:22 **showed** 132:18 253:7 **showing** 35:10 51:4

98:22 109:17 202:9 **shows** 7:7 ,7 18:15 37:13 ,13 55:22 58:11 ,11 ,17 ,21 79:4,4,7 84:12,13 87:5 88:10 132:19 137:3 247:14,20 259:6,6 **shut** 260:20 **side** 17:3 55:6 58:7 128:11 ,17 161:11 164:17 176:13 183:6,20 184:12 184:17 186:19 198:5 211:3 ,5 214:19 295:11 **sidebar** 227:19 228:7 **Sidetalk** 86:14 89:15 91:3 ,8 94:18 194:19 205:11 240:7 245:6 290:19 297:18 **sideways** 32:4 **sifted** 295:8 **sign** 289:9 **signed** 284:1 **significant** 136:20 175:22 176:4 188:8 231:17 236:7 243:9 264:13 278:21 292:18 **significantly** 112:15 197:18 **signs** 226:8 **similar** 69:12 128:6 128:8 **simple** 23:2 102:21 102:21 248:3 **simplification** 129:11 ,12 **simplified** 162:19 **simplify** 275:7 295:13 **simply** 31:4,20 130:3 ,6 237:19 **simulation** 188:9,19 229:12 245:9 257:22 258:1 267:12 **simulations** 188:5 246:8 257:2 258:9 274:1

**single** 115:12 128:20 129:10,18 130:7 ,13 132:1 ,20 133:4,9,14,22 134:19 135:6,12 135:21 ,22 137:8 137:11 ,16 138:8 142:12,22 143:4,9 149:9 150:7 ,10 153:8 194:6 196:5 206:16 231:19 236:6,20 287:13 **single-stage** 131:7 131:11 137:22 139:19 140:14 141:5 ,13 236:10 **single-story** 149:11 **single-zone** 153:6 **sit** 137:4 173:19 221:7 **site** 90:5 95:10 **sitting** 116:2 178:15 **situation** 44:1 ,20 45:8,9,10 170:12 236:12 263:13 **six** 22:20 206:22 241:15 **six-story** 149:15 **sixth** 29:12 **size** 146:6 154:1 158:4 159:17 166:8,11 ,14 171:9 171:11 180:18 193:12 195:8 196:15 200:20 201:3 206:16 207:11 ,18 208:1 ,2 222:22 229:16 230:13 278:3 279:16 **sized** 181:18 **sizes** 153:13 158:4 165:13 186:17 195:2,18 207:9,13 215:4 224:13 **sizing** 158:20 179:9 229:11 **skip** 32:22 **skipped** 87:10 123:4 **slide** 15:12,20 16:7 16:21 17:8,19 18:4,14 19:3 ,14 24:18,19 25:14 80:10 95:17 96:6 96:11 98:15 107:1Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 326 157:8,10 201:12 221:16 229:8 244:15 245:15 246:19 275:10,11 **slides** 11:15 14:13 14:15 95:15 106:2 112:3 246:21 273:15 297:16 **slightly** 243:7 **slippery** 47:16 **slope** 47:16 **SMAKDA** 55:5 **small** 131:2 148:9 150:21 154:21 155:9 159:15 ,15 164:7 168:19 207:19 211:12,13 225:10 262:15 271:10 279:18 **smaller** 19:11 55:7 55:16 134:9,10,11 142:17 146:20 148:6 154:12 193:9,13 233:4 278:19,20,21 **smallest** 207:18 **smart** 173:7 198:18 **smartest** 6:12 **smooth** 187:21 **so-and-so** 62:22 **soccer** 5:5 **software** 187:20 **sold** 122:9,10,11 131:6,8 133:21 134:9 253:19 **solely** 12:18 **solution** 30:21 31:4 31:17 52:13 **solutions** 73:10 173:18 **solve** 196:5 ,6,15 197:2 **solvent** 85:7 **solves** 265:10 **somebody** 28:8 62:11 73:17 95:2 122:13 123:4 161:5 **somebody's** 17:11 **someone's** 34:2 **someplace** 82:22 **somewhat** 107:6 207:7 **soon** 35:9 81:1 157:4,6 275:22,22 **sophisticated** 170:11

**sore** 227:11 **sorry** 38:8 53:3 57:15 79:5 83:11 90:19 117:9 118:11 143:6 166:12 171:17 217:7 ,18 **sort** 18:11 ,15 55:4 55:14,14 68:16 71:8,22 72:10 80:13 95:15 99:21 102:5 103:11 110:13 130:3 134:1 135:15 145:4 147:2 154:14 161:14 172:22 194:10 197:1 200:10,19 205:7 208:22 210:20 223:19 233:10,16 250:10 261:12 265:21 273:5 275:11 284:22 287:18 **sound** 72:15 205:20 218:12 **sounded** 46:9 **sounds** 37:8 89:13 93:3 107:18 119:2 131:11 137:14 155:20,22 193:9 206:2 218:17 224:2 267:1 295:10 **southern** 7:19,20 136:1 **SPA** 220:12,19 **space** 95:5 150:3 152:2 153:21 171:5 203:5 ,22 204:1 ,9,13 233:10 233:17 237:8,11 240:9 **spaced** 32:6 **spaces** 170:22 216:13 235:11 **spacing** 169:21 **speak** 11:21 16:18 25:11 33:17 62:11 62:12 67:21 82:13 200:1 221:6 **SPEAKER** 60:20 **speaking** 39:20 71:5 83:7 99:11 136:3 136:6 139:12 **special** 27:7 ,21

28:22 47:22 48:18 48:22 63:3 ,7 **specific** 42:11 ,12 79:14 107:11 109:2 112:15 211:20 264:4 **specifically** 28:8 45:5 82:5 280:13 **specified** 243:1 **speculate** 134:8 **speed** 143:9 190:19 202:13 237:7 ,10 238:12 239:2 241:8 242:4 243:1 244:6 282:2,3 ,17 **spend** 66:7 ,7 141:1 282:15 **spending** 141:1 291:9 **split** 57:16 132:20 133:3 142:3 ,13 145:9 146:3 152:13 153:19 225:12 267:7 280:18 284:16 **splits** 280:4 **splitting** 167:21 **spoke** 18:9 213:5 **spot** 81:2 150:4 216:5 ,11 270:9 293:17 **spreadsheet** 220:21 240:20 **spreadsheets** 224:11 **spurred** 73:18 **SPY** 220:17 **square** 10:7 ,8 145:21 146:11 ,13 146:14 149:11 178:20 245:11 ,21 246:5 ,6,10 250:1 251:2 258:18 261:10 267:17 270:4 271:5 278:16 **squarely** 103:13 **squeeze** 215:21 **stable** 250:18 **staff** 18:9 91:22 97:11 256:14 **stage** 18:8 19:6 130:7 134:19 135:7 137:16 140:14 143:8 144:16 152:8,10

152:17 231:12,15 231:19,19,22 236:6,6,11 ,11 237:19 238:2,22 239:1 274:20,20 282:4,4 283:3 **staged** 123:19 124:1 143:20 144:4 147:6 151:15 225:11 ,15 226:12 239:7 ,9 276:16 278:13 280:9,19 280:21 281:3 ,22 283:18 **stages** 29:10 32:2 128:21 138:3 142:21 151:15 152:17 231:11 274:18 282:2 **staging** 110:2 123:8 125:5 151:20 **stairs** 10:11 **stairways** 172:9 **stake** 18:1 **stakeholders** 11:18 12:13 18:19 19:2 271:20 **stand** 8:18 95:15 96:10 **standard** 67:22 68:12,14 69:4,4,5 69:21 70:1 96:5 101:4,10,15 ,18 102:18 ,19 103:1 104:19 105:7 158:3 165:4 168:3 172:16,17 ,21 177:7 ,21 184:20 196:18 223:18 263:15 275:5 279:9 **standards** 2:9,10 6:10 10:20 12:6 20:11 23:20 27:6 56:11 57:10 96:3 98:16 101:10 103:20 104:15 157:14,16 214:17 255:6 **standing** 18:10 41:18 **Starr** 7:5 ,5 53:7 ,12 82:8 85:12,15 88:4,19 89:5 92:14,17 93:8 116:18 ,18 117:1 ,9

118:2 119:2,9,12 120:19 126:14 130:10 131:3 ,19 132:7 134:13 135:14 137:10 140:19 149:17 150:8,12 151:1 ,13 152:12,19 153:17 158:15 ,15 159:6 159:20 160:16 163:5 164:11 ,15 167:12 168:16 178:7 179:18 180:8 181:7 ,21 182:8,12 183:12 183:17 186:15 193:7 ,21 194:8,13 195:19 200:19 201:2 210:4 213:1 233:7 235:1 238:4 239:4,11 240:10 241:9 242:5 248:7 251:18 256:18 258:4 263:6,21 264:15 ,19 266:18 267:21 271:22 278:1 281:20 282:18 ,21 283:3 285:4,8,15 ,18,21 286:11 293:19 **start** 6:8 13:19 33:19 51:4 59:9 59:12 78:20 84:1 84:11 90:17 130:10 135:2 171:12 179:11 196:22 201:4 210:6 229:2 256:20 258:17 259:4 278:14 286:15 **started** 66:18 71:22 157:1 202:9 **starting** 91:16 213:18 257:14 **starts** 171:11 190:13 251:2 **Stas** 6:15 ,15 100:13 100:13 101:1 102:17 103:10 104:4 105:1 156:21 ,21 **stat** 274:19 **state** 8:18 85:16 188:17 ,20,22Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 327 189:8 **stated** 112:16 **statement** 67:16 72:3 240:17 **static** 159:17 160:11 160:21 161:8,10 161:13 ,20 162:3 163:14 164:7 168:9,13 ,15 ,17 ,20 169:2 177:2,2,7 ,9 177:11 ,14,20 178:11 ,12 179:9 179:21 181:11 ,15 181:16 182:3 ,5 183:8 185:11 187:1 273:20 274:17 ,21 275:6 284:18 285:2,12 **statics** 274:2 **statistically** 265:8 **statute's** 105:3 **statutory** 16:9 20:8 24:8 32:22 **stay** 5:19 86:13 139:18 **steer** 124:14 **step** 71:9 97:4 123:7 163:22 164:2,10 194:10 206:10 213:21 214:3 ,7 215:22 219:6 242:16 287:3 ,5 **steps** 207:7 215:3 **Steve** 9:6,8 22:14 252:3 296:22 **Steven** 2:20 296:18 **stick** 6:14 154:15 220:9 266:17 **sticking** 199:2 **sticks** 227:11 **stilts** 172:3 **stock** 250:17 ,18 255:22 256:5 262:2 265:20,22 **stop** 56:5 ,6 89:19 106:17 228:11 263:4 **store** 251:12 **story** 251:11 **straight** 154:5 207:8 249:4 **straightforward** 216:18 **strange** 72:8 **strategies** 211:10 **straw** 80:17 **street** 13:7

**stretch** 90:11 **strikes** 72:8 134:1 137:1 183:21 184:9 199:5 **stringency** 101:16 101:16 **strive** 36:19 **strong** 16:3 31:19 32:10 44:5 66:12 78:19 88:15 93:3 **strongly** 66:2 102:13 **structure** 40:22 **structured** 173:1 **struggled** 287:6 **stuck** 44:20 104:20 **studies** 253:8 **study** 253:7 ,7 ,10 254:14,16,17 260:19 **stuff** 4:11 13:14 24:11 73:15 118:14 139:14 180:2,2 182:22 183:1 221:8 253:18 258:5 291:1 ,2 **stump** 100:16 **sub-cooling** 191:1 ,3 191:4,7 **subcommittee** 27:12 **subgroup** 74:8,15 74:20 75:2,4,7 76:6,8,12 77:13 228:1 ,2 239:20 286:21 288:2,5 ,14 **subgroups** 73:22 74:2,7 ,9,18 76:2 78:3 288:17 298:15 **subject** 27:22 **submit** 173:4,22 **submitted** 68:11 298:6 **submitting** 36:19 **subsequent** 19:8 82:18 **substance** 17:16,16 68:1 69:6 70:2 104:7 **substantial** 207:21 **substitution** 259:1 **Subway** 10:14 **success** 62:15 **successful** 12:7 ,10 50:3 **successfully** 5:11 55:10 **sudden** 158:21 197:17 **sufficient** 71:16 111:4 **suggest** 124:9 138:11 ,19 175:1 250:17 270:13 286:12 **suggested** 64:8 112:7 128:22 213:2 **suggesting** 47:7 114:1 121:21 241:7 271:7 285:18 288:3 **suggestion** 49:7 57:22 58:1 92:7 161:2 **suggestions** 42:3 49:10 60:10 **suggests** 175:7 **summarize** 37:7 48:17 **summer** 95:5 246:13 253:7 254:17 **summertime** 242:8 **Sunday** 88:20 90:20 **sunsetting** 105:9 **sunshine** 26:19 **supplemental** 71:12 **supply** 169:12,13 ,22 170:6,19 **support** 20:14 55:12 55:15 68:22 74:9 91:12 92:14 213:20,22 **supporting** 170:4 **supportive** 55:11 216:7 **supposed** 28:2,3 29:2 58:8 **supposition** 137:18 **sure** 16:19 21:7 23:1 28:20 29:10 32:4 39:6 41:10 41:21 45:18 46:5 64:13 67:9 92:15 93:9 99:4,5 ,7 ,8 105:13 108:22 115:6 118:20 126:16 135:16 137:14 141:2

180:1 185:13 188:6 191:19 196:12 205:9 206:13 208:7 ,10 209:5 213:7 227:3 227:10 239:20 240:2 241:21 259:11 267:3 283:1 288:19 292:14 296:19 297:3 ,7 **surface** 100:4,5 125:13 226:18 **surprise** 179:15 **surprised** 118:13 151:9 **surprising** 152:6 **survey** 153:13 **surveyed** 253:8 **surveys** 158:9 **Susan** 26:6 **suspect** 44:12 202:15 248:10,12 262:15 **Suzanne** 268:10 **SW** 1:9 **swap** 214:8 **sweet** 216:5 ,10 **switch** 151:19,20 **switches** 221:20 **switching** 175:6 234:15 **sync** 250:10 251:2 **synergies** 23:12 **synonymous** 139:6 **system** 57:17 123:19,20 150:15 150:17 151:7 153:1 156:5 161:9 161:14 162:6,8 178:2,9 179:22 181:3 ,10,18,19 229:11 ,15 230:13 235:2 259:11 276:17 277:8 282:13 **systematic** 117:6 **systems** 145:5 149:7 163:12 180:4,17 182:9 189:22 236:2 277:2 278:20 279:11 280:9 **T t**  68:4 **tab** 179:19

**table** 4:15 23:21 100:15 105:22 116:2 121:16 147:3 210:2 216:13 245:21 **tables** 98:2 107:3 127:5 275:8 **tackle** 298:17 **take** 13:19 14:4,14 14:15 17:18 44:18 53:1 66:10 67:1 67:11 68:15 69:2 69:20 81:19 92:11 95:14 98:7 104:1 114:17 129:13 135:10 150:3 160:7 179:14,22 190:13 ,18 195:9 199:2 216:18 221:11 238:6 245:2 246:3 247:18 249:14 252:14,18 255:20 256:3 258:13 ,16 261:16 267:15 ,18 270:18 274:12 281:9 287:11 **taken** 63:17 64:3 66:16 68:8 69:16 73:14 77:20 156:14 191:14 195:15 226:13 ,20 226:22 228:17 230:6 290:20 **takes** 221:6,9 **talk** 17:2 19:8 26:11 97:1 197:11 198:8 249:16 267:21 273:16 286:3 293:21 294:2 **talked** 67:3 189:5 192:12 230:4 279:11 291:2 294:10 **talking** 18:22 32:17 47:21 61:11 98:18 104:14 143:3 153:17 159:4 160:12,15 163:12 166:12 168:18 170:13 177:4 180:3 186:9 193:10,17 207:10 207:15 218:8,13 224:12 226:5Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 328 234:11 244:9 246:22 257:6,17 259:10,10 263:2 270:19 286:12 287:22 296:18 **talks** 19:4 248:17 ,19 **target** 93:16 107:11 116:16 216:19 **task** 13:21 **taw** 246:9 **Taylor** 252:3 **team** 80:17 84:19 96:22 106:8 153:11 158:5 168:12 186:12,14 202:10 212:18 228:11 289:3 **team's** 85:4 **tech** 202:12,19,20 203:1 204:2,11 **technical** 18:17 21:20 22:1 74:9 75:5 76:3 96:22 97:4 114:4 266:12 268:2 289:3 291:8 295:17 **technically** 71:2 **technologically** 20:12 **technologies** 2:12 3:3 6:20 8:5 123:2 195:18 **technology** 104:19 104:22 112:18 ,18 112:19 194:14 195:14 196:2 199:17 202:14 **Ted** 2:5 4:22 5:14 24:22 **telephone** 63:10 **tell** 100:18 101:3 147:14 183:3 ,4 197:20 238:18 272:16 **telling** 44:2 291:9 **temp** 230:14 231:3 247:12,13 ,21 287:14 **temperature** 32:13 86:15 190:14 191:5 ,6 229:11 ,18 229:20 230:21 237:14 239:6 **temperatures** 190:11 ,15 264:10 **ten** 92:19 **ten-year** 199:16

**tendency** 178:18 **tension** 172:22 **tenth** 91:1 ,6 92:10 92:13 ,15 93:15 **term** 31:11 63:7 67:4,5 ,8,11 68:1 68:15 69:6,11 70:3 ,13 ,18 102:4 **terminology** 216:15 **terms** 68:2 99:9 102:3 133:17 171:22 204:12 216:11 227:13 283:14,17 286:2 **Terzignini** 9:19 **test** 23:22 24:3 31:22 71:22 107:8 107:19,21 109:6,7 118:18 ,20 159:21 162:14 186:18 188:5 189:2,16 190:1 ,2 210:17 **tested** 189:22 211:2 **testing** 109:2 162:4 162:6,9 **tests** 107:4 108:3 ,4 108:12,15 162:17 162:19 **Texas** 246:14 **thank** 4:20 6:4 8:8 10:21 18:13 23:4 34:19 49:4 53:4 59:12 64:19 66:8 82:19 90:3 108:21 109:21 143:6,14 149:16 171:20 172:6 228:16 230:22 240:3 298:5 ,10,21 **thanks** 5:5 30:11 103:10 **Tharp** 3:1 7:1 ,1 73:20 86:3 ,9 104:12,12 112:11 112:11 113:19 188:3 ,3 ,16 189:21 190:4 194:20 199:5 208:15 226:10,10 227:22 228:7 274:17 **that'd** 187:15 **theme** 191:11 **themes** 125:4 **theory** 214:22 **thermostat** 233:15 **they'd** 274:22

**thing** 45:15 51:18 58:7 66:6 68:4 73:22 94:4 110:13 124:9 125:19 131:3 134:13 ,21 135:18 137:21 ,22 139:18 140:12,19 149:18 155:7 158:1 159:6 160:8 167:12 168:8 172:2 173:16 179:4 180:15 183:12 185:5 ,16 186:15 188:4 193:8 194:20 198:4 226:12,13 234:7 241:17 243:16 251:22 252:12,16 260:18 264:16 271:6 274:13 282:16 283:15 ,19 284:8 291:12 297:21 **things** 13:20 16:13 17:1 21:10 24:22 26:6 41:5 44:15 46:11 55:6 64:17 80:14,19 84:20 95:15 96:9 97:3 103:8 104:8 111:14 112:12 125:11 138:2 147:20 153:9 158:16 163:11 164:18 169:20 178:16 186:21 193:14 194:11 231:13 ,14 233:22 242:14 245:7 248:17 251:20 252:2,12 255:22 256:1 257:13 263:3 275:19 282:12 289:16 294:8 **think** 11:12 12:7 ,10 15:7 19:22 21:15 22:9,10 23:12,18 23:22 24:5 29:14 30:5 32:2 34:10 35:15 ,19 36:3 ,16 37:14,17 38:5 ,13 39:10,18 41:4,14 41:16 43:10 44:4 44:5 ,10,18 45:1 46:13 47:9,20

50:4,17 51:6 52:16 53:7 54:17 55:8,9,11 ,15 ,16 55:17 ,19,20 56:11 56:13 ,14,18,21 57:20 58:4,5 ,7 62:14,19,20 65:21 71:8 72:18 73:4 73:16 74:3 ,19 75:4,5 ,6,18 76:1 ,4 77:1 78:5 79:2 80:7 ,14,20 81:1 ,1 81:2 82:20 83:12 85:5 86:1 ,12 88:6 91:5 ,14 92:6 94:1 95:7 ,11 96:14,17 96:18 99:21 100:1 100:14 102:8 104:2,7 105:16 106:1 ,3 ,6,9,15 ,22 108:1 ,18 109:17 110:22 111:11 ,14 111:16,18 112:12 114:21 115:2 116:12 119:9 120:5 ,9,20 121:2 122:4,10 123:3 124:16 125:16,21 126:18 127:15 ,19 127:20,22 129:7 ,8 129:16,21 130:7 132:8,13 134:13 135:7 ,8 136:5 138:13 140:1 ,12 140:16 141:6 143:16 145:1 ,8 147:1 ,3 149:10 151:3 153:9 157:7 157:19 158:16 159:22 160:2 161:7 162:2 163:13 164:5 169:9 176:1 ,3 ,3 179:1 ,4,9 180:8 181:7 184:3 ,4,10 185:21 186:16 187:7 ,13 189:7 ,8 190:5 ,22 193:3 195:21 199:18 202:20,22 203:1 204:3 ,10,12 205:8 208:20 210:7 211:21 213:1 ,6,13 213:13 ,15 ,20,20 214:3 ,9,10,12 215:7 ,20 216:2,5

216:16 218:11 219:1 ,8,19,20 221:10 222:4 224:10 225:19 227:22 228:5 ,9 229:7 ,9 230:5 231:3 234:3 237:2 237:9,20 240:8 242:5 243:8 ,11 244:3 245:10,14 246:3 ,5 248:16,19 249:2,5 251:18 253:5 ,12 255:5 ,8 255:12 256:14 257:12 260:1 ,10 260:15 263:17 264:11 265:10 266:12,22 267:1 268:8,9 269:13 ,14 269:15 271:11 272:21 ,22 273:3 273:18 274:6,8,12 275:15 276:1 279:15 ,17 283:8 284:13 ,17 ,18,21 285:1 ,22 288:22 289:12 290:4 291:9,18 292:9,11 292:17 293:17 294:6 297:6 298:10,11 ,13 ,15 **thinking** 33:13 56:20,22 57:2,9 57:10,14 76:15 100:7 103:12 121:15 133:12 139:6,22 160:7 163:6 166:1 171:21 177:10 205:22 209:1 220:5 229:2 232:16 233:9 234:5 241:20 252:7 258:4 264:15 272:5 278:4 281:21 293:19 **thinks** 13:9 80:17 106:8 **third** 35:11 89:8 96:13 114:2,2,3 115:8,9,9 169:14 202:7 282:5 **Thirty** 250:7 **thorough** 180:13Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 329 187:11 **thought** 39:4 99:13 105:19 127:1 128:3 158:20 165:1 196:10,10 200:7 232:15 249:11 256:18 258:13 259:2 261:9,13 262:5 277:18 279:2,3 280:8 281:12 296:9 **thoughts** 33:16 39:12 40:9,16 51:19 52:2 53:20 58:1 69:15 73:18 75:8 77:8 92:5 165:2 248:8 268:7 **thousand** 176:5 205:4 240:13 241:21 293:1 **three** 24:16 30:15 32:3 51:21 53:9 53:12,18,19 54:16 55:11 ,12,15 57:22 57:22 58:2,5 ,8,12 58:14 59:3 ,4 60:9 91:11 92:4 94:20 124:20 142:21 153:18 169:11 171:16,17 172:5 173:13 196:19 197:15 200:2 209:6 213:14 216:20 217:1 218:4,14,14 224:22 240:12 241:21 242:14 290:2 **three-quarter** 185:17 **three-quarters** 186:17 **three-stage** 231:15 **three-story** 149:22 **three-year** 199:15 **threes** 119:18 **threw** 163:11 **throw** 31:12 50:6 68:5 137:2 181:16 209:3 **throwing** 142:5 **thrown** 49:6 **thumb** 227:11 ,13 ,19 **thumb's** 32:8 **thumbs** 32:3 ,3 ,7 59:14,16

**Thursday** 85:19 262:20 **Thursday/Friday** 86:8 **tick** 204:8 **tilt** 181:9 **time** 5:20 7:22 10:15 11:9,14,20 12:12 14:20 15:17 18:12 20:3 22:7 24:14 26:1 35:7 36:7 38:6,14 40:10 41:1 ,16 42:12 43:8,11 ,13 45:2 51:4 62:10 66:5 ,7 74:3 81:2 82:17 84:4,11 93:9 95:12 100:11 100:17 104:17 114:17 ,18 115:2 128:1 139:16,20 141:1 ,1 ,8 143:17 147:8 149:5 179:16 182:1 187:2 191:22 194:10 198:19 202:1 209:5 212:8 212:20 213:11 215:17 228:14 232:9,11 234:2 238:16 241:8 252:11 ,14,15 254:22 255:3 ,9 260:17 266:7 275:21 279:1 282:15 288:15 ,16 288:18 292:4 293:11 295:21 296:2,2,8,8 297:10 298:8 **timeframe** 34:12 72:12,19 139:10 208:18 ,19 **timeframes** 73:11 **times** 24:21 41:18 178:11 ,17 223:16 232:7 251:19 **timing** 103:18 **title** 254:15 **today** 4:8 7:21 9:15 16:13 25:1 ,5 26:9 27:14 28:14 36:11 52:18 82:12 96:10 96:21 100:5 ,11 120:7 123:4 137:5 145:3 157:3 166:6

166:19,19 167:7 172:18 ,19,20 173:3 ,19 184:4 222:17 223:17 250:14,16 286:8 291:2 293:4 296:9 298:7 ,10,13 **today's** 10:22 196:16 **told** 44:16 48:9 179:21 296:16 **tomorrow** 167:7 286:6 **ton** 128:22 130:21 132:19 139:19,20 140:14,15 142:11 142:19 149:6 154:22 155:6,6,7 155:9 172:4 177:11 182:2 194:22 204:5 206:2,2,5 ,6,17 ,18 206:21 212:1 217:14,20 219:1 231:18 279:2,20 279:22 281:17 **tonnage** 204:14,19 278:3 **tons** 134:5 136:22 138:8 147:12 149:21 156:8 172:12 204:7 212:2 217:9,19,20 278:22 281:16 **tool** 195:2 **tools** 127:9 210:16 **top** 98:14 112:6 121:13 157:11 232:2 251:14 286:20 288:1 **topic** 78:6 164:14 185:22 221:19 222:5 **topics** 105:14 187:17 **tossed** 250:12,15 **total** 52:1 77:11 159:19,20 169:14 177:11 182:5 244:6 247:22 285:6 288:20 **totally** 16:4 **touched** 276:13 **tough** 93:4 **town** 83:6 **track** 62:6

**trade** 125:6 **tradeoffs** 125:15 **traditional** 151:10 **Trane** 2:13 8:3 42:19 70:11 110:14 117:22 118:11 136:7 139:16 143:2 171:17 174:7 283:7 **transfer** 112:18 ,22 113:2 **transferring** 79:7 **transformers** 76:1 **transition** 26:2 98:19 99:6 193:4 197:5 199:16,17 **travel** 79:18 86:10 86:11 88:21 93:4 **travel-related** 40:1 **traveling** 88:20 89:1 90:20 **travels** 83:19 **Travis** 3:10 8:22 **treated** 185:1 **treatment** 163:21 **tremendous** 173:17 **trend** 197:6 223:12 **trending** 138:11 **trends** 191:10 **tried** 96:16 124:14 221:18 223:6 **trivial** 259:5 **trouble** 181:6 269:21 **true** 123:12 147:10 147:12 193:3 **truly** 115:16 **trust** 44:3 **try** 16:13 17:11 ,12 17:15 24:1 56:3 59:1 ,2 79:20 103:12 110:10 115:3 121:20 150:1 ,3 157:3 162:16 170:15 174:14 194:22 204:20 213:16 219:10,12 223:11 224:19 228:10,12 244:15 245:2 246:19 271:4 273:9 274:9,10,13 276:3 284:8 287:6 291:8 **trying** 9:17 26:22

29:10 30:21 48:10 48:20 62:14 78:5 80:8 87:5 103:17 118:17 135:20 143:7 153:19 161:1 171:2 174:13 182:15 ,18 182:21 197:2 200:21 206:13 215:21 216:8 222:11 235:7 236:3 239:12 245:22 250:10 255:2,14 258:22 261:21 273:6 **TSD** 189:21 **tube** 187:21 188:1 192:6,17 ,21 195:13 ,17 199:4 **tubes** 192:9 **Tuesday** 79:19 89:2 **turn** 4:12 15:22 95:12 96:21 97:3 228:19 238:9 240:14 247:1 276:6 **turned** 48:4 **turning** 238:10 **turns** 62:19 151:4 231:7 **Twelve** 51:15 **twice** 54:20 90:19 101:14 **two** 22:7 23:13 ,17 29:9 32:11 35:11 48:3 51:2 53:18 54:17 55:6,10 56:1 ,6,11 58:6 72:15 80:7 ,22 84:17 87:6,14,19 88:3 90:13 91:10 92:8 101:6,10 104:15 117:13 123:18 124:17 125:10 128:21 131:2 132:22 133:3 135:12 138:3 139:5 140:14 141:18 142:9,14,18,20 143:1 ,8,9 149:6,8 149:21 151:15 152:16 155:6 161:20,22 163:15 167:21 171:10Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 330 175:12 197:15 208:21 209:2,21 215:9,10,11 ,17 218:13 225:13 227:2 231:19 232:2 236:6,11 ,11 239:19 240:12 241:21 244:12 247:10 248:17 249:10 265:1 272:11 ,15 278:7 279:3 282:2,2 283:3 285:9 292:3 292:4 **two-circuit** 133:1 ,6 **two-dimensional/t ...**  154:8 **two-speed** 138:15 **two-stage** 130:13 131:7 138:19 139:20 142:17 ,21 151:2,5 231:15 236:9 **two-stage/modula ...**  142:19 **two-tenths** 285:14 **two-thirds** 151:10 246:6 250:1 ,5 ,8 **two-weeks** 81:2 **two-year** 73:7 **type** 64:10 114:9,14 124:5 149:1 154:2 156:5 234:21 283:15 ,19 284:10 **types** 32:12 125:3 168:19 267:7 277:14 298:1 **typical** 116:1 117:11 ,16,16 128:11 159:12 **typically** 13:2 132:10 142:18 202:14 257:11 ,13 282:1 **U U.S**  1:1 ,7 **ugly** 99:5 **UL** 3:10 7:7 8:22 37:13 58:11 79:4 84:13 259:6 **ultimately** 100:9 104:2 124:16,18 205:9 **unable** 65:17 227:2 **unanimity** 53:2 **unanimous** 25:15 54:10

**unauthorized** 26:16 **unclear** 289:12 **underestimating** 243:4 **underestimation** 227:8 **underlying** 161:7 172:22 **underneath** 144:19 **undersize** 182:22 **understand** 11:16 21:13 32:16 33:22 39:6 56:16 70:12 83:22 89:7 108:21 109:1 114:21 121:21 134:6 149:13 160:14 161:16 162:13 169:17 214:5 230:19 234:4 245:10,13 261:3 295:6 297:11 **understandable** 202:3 **understanding** 32:15 63:7 99:18 107:13 151:16 164:18 210:8 222:12 223:2 230:5 280:15 **undue** 26:17 **uneasy** 240:9 **unfortunately** 89:4 173:18 **UNIDENTIFIED** 60:20 **unit** 23:15 108:7 113:5 ,17 114:20 115:13 ,16 116:16 117:22 118:1 ,18 121:18 122:9,10 122:15 ,20 123:17 123:21 124:3 127:6 133:14 141:13 144:11 150:1 157:12 158:20 165:14 170:4,7 172:2 173:11 176:21 ,22 177:6 178:1 ,12 180:9,10 184:18 186:21 188:18 191:20 195:22 196:16 197:9 198:12 204:5 ,15 205:1 ,3 ,4,6

206:20 207:1 209:12 210:18 ,19 210:21 211:2,20 220:1 231:7 ,7 ,14 231:15 ,16,22 232:7 236:9,10,20 237:7 251:12,13 251:15 259:8 281:21 282:2 **unit's** 232:20 **unitary** 96:1 **United** 3:3 8:4 **units** 98:15 ,17 107:10 108:7 109:2 112:8,9 113:18 117:17 ,19 118:2,4,21 ,22 122:14 124:20 125:22 127:3 ,15 129:9 130:21 133:21 136:1 ,1 142:11 ,17 148:6,9 149:14 157:13 158:5 162:15 164:19,20,21 165:12 166:6 172:10 192:7 ,8,14 203:11 ,15 ,20 205:1 210:17 211:5 ,6,16 212:1 212:1 ,3 ,4 220:20 224:16 229:22 230:12,18 231:18 232:6,10,12,14,16 232:17 ,19,20 233:5 ,11 234:1 236:19,21 250:14 **University** 210:16 **unresolved** 245:1 **unusual** 163:7 **updated** 81:7 187:22 **updates** 24:3 **upgrade** 110:3 178:2 **upgraded** 144:15 **upgrading** 150:17 150:21 151:6 **upper** 118:9 119:11 119:18 231:12 244:7 **ups** 206:10 **upsides** 193:10 **urged** 33:2 157:4 **usage** 235:17 **use** 30:14 31:11 33:2 97:2 99:10 109:9 110:20 114:11 119:4 122:14 136:2 144:6 145:19 148:6,15 153:11 156:6,6 163:20 164:19 168:15 ,16 182:7 183:9 186:20 189:11 192:9,11 193:12 194:8 196:2 201:18 203:11 204:13 206:7 229:13 230:16 237:22 243:4 244:7 249:17 257:8 273:21 274:5 ,18,20,22 275:5 ,17 277:2 282:1 ,7 292:3 **useful** 41:7 220:4,10 **uses** 202:13 **usually** 70:22 163:8 197:21 298:8 **Utilities** 7:18 53:1 162:16 **utilization** 99:16 **utilizing** 163:2 **V vacationing**  7:22 **valid** 114:22 214:3 **validate** 244:13 **valley** 99:17 231:2 **valuable** 40:17 **value** 162:13 184:21 238:2 271:9 **values** 108:17 109:3 124:17 143:1 169:4 204:4 217:7 274:3 ,4 **variable** 145:10 147:6,15 ,17 ,18 202:13 276:16,20 278:9,10,12 279:5 279:10 282:17 283:19 **variance** 112:13 **variances** 162:7 **variation** 204:13 **varies** 113:5 ,8 243:8 **various** 227:10 265:15 266:16 **vary** 112:15 120:6 154:1 ,2 155:19 171:13 188:20

203:19 204:4 246:12 **varying** 153:6 **VAV** 131:18 153:3 153:6,15 ,19,22 154:13 155:1 156:7 225:15 235:3 277:1 278:20 280:6 282:13 283:9 **ventilating** 151:18 152:1 242:8 **ventilation** 151:16 238:16 239:13 240:22 242:6 243:5 244:5 248:19 260:10,12 260:12,16 281:6,7 282:6,15 ,18 **verify** 224:10 269:19,22 271:4 **version** 270:18 272:12 275:1 280:22 **versus** 48:7 98:22 123:22 125:5 ,12 125:13 ,14 128:20 128:21 135:12 153:22 191:10 192:5 199:4 201:20 211:10 212:9 223:10 226:16 261:11 265:12 287:14 **vertical** 170:22 171:22 **VFD** 183:14 282:22 283:4,9,10 **viable** 23:18 **view** 21:19 34:1 36:9 43:18 52:15 218:8 **viewpoint** 28:9 **viewpoints** 26:22 27:1 28:4 29:7 **vis** 96:9 **vis-** 96:9 **visit** 61:7 **visualize** 209:17 **voices** 250:13 **volt** 287:14 **volume** 121:19 123:19,20,22 125:5 129:22 131:10,18 132:6Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 331 134:11 ,11 144:12 144:13 145:10 146:21 147:6,7 ,15 147:17 ,18 148:9 148:16,19 149:1 152:20,22 153:6 153:18 154:22 156:5 172:17 173:10 226:18 276:16,16,16,20 277:8,14 278:8,9 278:9,10,13 ,13 279:5 ,10,17 ,19 280:9,19,19,22 281:2,3 ,22 283:11 **volumes** 276:19 **vote** 21:2 27:16 36:15 37:10,20 38:1 39:6,11 ,13 40:4 42:10,11 43:1 ,3 ,3 ,21 44:2 45:15 46:8 47:5 47:14,15 48:5 ,9 51:21 52:1 ,2,7 ,12 52:18 53:15 55:20 55:21 56:14,18 57:3 59:18 60:4 60:12,14,15 ,21 61:3 63:2,12,17 64:3 67:7 ,11 ,14 68:3 ,4,6,8,20 69:16 73:14 77:17 77:20 93:1 218:18 **voted** 27:17 28:14 57:5 67:19 69:1 69:19 73:4 **votes** 13:14 39:7 42:15 ,17 43:11 ,13 44:10 48:6 51:21 53:3 ,18 55:22 57:5 59:4 63:16 64:2,6 67:1 68:6 69:11 ,15 72:3 78:13 79:1 **voting** 13:17 25:6,6 42:12 47:21 ,22 48:18,21 ,22 52:6 55:7 58:14 60:8 63:3 ,8 72:22 **W w**  277:18 **Wade** 9:4 **wait** 43:15 293:15 **waiting** 286:16 **wake** 97:16 **walk** 20:13 **walking** 99:22

**wall** 103:15 **Waltner** 3:2 7:3 ,3 40:19 43:7 72:6,6 72:17 81:5 ,12 86:12 88:8 108:22 109:21 120:4,11 120:15 145:4 147:19 148:1 161:7 164:16 166:17 167:1 ,5 204:18 213:18 222:8,10 223:13 224:2,7 239:18 240:2 253:3 260:18 261:20 262:9,13 **want** 6:5 10:17 14:1 14:14 16:3 ,4,18 20:13 ,16,20 21:14 28:20 34:3 ,5 ,6 36:9,22 40:10,22 42:6 43:14 44:14 44:17 46:4,6 48:16 49:15 51:10 56:5 60:12 62:11 64:13 66:7 73:5 74:1 ,4,12 75:11 77:7 78:22 79:13 83:11 87:10,22 105:6,13 106:17 106:22 111:15 113:20 114:13 116:15 125:8,10 135:17 136:9 141:11 148:10 157:18 161:18 172:14 180:4 181:6 184:11 200:17 ,17 201:20 208:20 209:14 213:7 ,12,19 216:21 ,22 224:8 227:14,15 ,19 235:13 240:12 242:7 246:5 255:19 260:8 268:11 270:10 273:9 279:12 284:3 ,10 286:21 288:18 289:18 292:14 296:4 297:7 **wanted** 39:5 62:8 96:18 98:5 110:11 111:10 123:16 168:8 201:7

211:19 221:15 230:20 261:3 276:11 **wanting** 61:7 **wants** 35:8 36:18 109:20 222:6 253:15 296:19 297:1 **warehouses** 168:19 **WARM** 1:4 **washers** 101:13 **Washington** 1:10 38:7 ,15 61:8 85:15 **wasn't** 21:9 35:13 44:13 47:3 51:3 57:6,7 62:9 129:3 141:7 ,12 200:3 217:19 261:20 262:20 268:5 **watch** 17:10 **wattage** 107:9,12 109:1 ,13 ,15 110:18 113:13 116:9,21 120:6,18 126:5 ,21 237:17 **wattages** 107:14 **wavy** 211:8 **way** 5:19 13:4 21:16 22:12 24:15 28:2 30:6 35:19 43:2 43:10 46:19 52:5 54:18 58:7 60:8 63:8 66:7 73:9 75:22 76:1 77:1 88:2 101:3 103:9 107:20 112:14 113:3 ,7 114:2,3 115:7 117:11 118:5 125:17 130:15 146:7 149:15 151:1 162:19 173:1 ,8 174:4,6 182:20 185:20 192:18 195:5 199:9 207:18 209:16 212:22 214:17 216:14,22 221:21 222:12 227:6 228:10 232:13 233:1 236:7 237:21 241:10 254:21 258:2 259:3 ,22 263:10 272:6,14 281:8

282:6,12 285:13 287:4,4 289:21 **Wayne** 26:4 30:1 **ways** 31:10 117:13 119:16 120:14,21 133:19 139:6 143:17 174:15 188:19 195:16 273:22 281:9 **we'll** 4:5 ,14,17 ,18 5:19 6:7 12:1 13:13 ,14 14:16 17:4 18:11 19:8 19:11 ,21 24:4 25:16 26:1 37:4,8 41:20 60:2 63:4 66:13 67:9 68:15 77:19 78:4 80:4 81:6 84:10,10 89:18 90:1 ,7 91:19,21 94:6,11 95:8,9,10,11 97:1 119:20 127:19 141:4,17 143:18 156:6,12,20 157:3 186:8 212:10 217:15 220:2,4,9 220:20,21 221:14 228:15 237:22 274:7 ,15 276:4,8 277:2,4,14 278:22 284:14 289:15 292:5 297:2,7 ,10 297:12 298:2,3 ,3 298:18 ,20 **we're** 4:8,9,10 5:1 5:18 6:13 10:6,9 10:10,11 11:1 ,2,4 11:7 ,12 13:10 14:19 15:3 ,21 16:2,3 ,10,13 17:1 17:21 18:2,16,19 19:6,6,7 ,22 20:3 20:10 28:6,19 29:5 30:21 31:7 32:14,17 33:5 ,14 36:15 38:19 39:1 41:14 42:14 45:3 45:7 46:16,19,20 46:21 47:10,11 ,15 47:21 48:1 ,10 54:8,11 56:7 57:20 60:3 61:3 61:11 62:14,19 66:4,9 67:6,7 ,7 ,14 68:18,20,21 73:16

82:5 ,10 85:7 86:1 89:13 90:4,11 ,20 93:16 96:20 103:3 105:14 109:5 ,15 109:16 110:22 112:6 113:21 114:10 117:4 118:17 124:1 125:2 128:7 131:13 141:14 143:3 144:3 155:18 156:3 ,6,8 157:15 159:4 161:8,10,13 165:11 168:11 170:9,13 ,13 187:20 188:11 ,11 188:14 191:16 192:8,20 193:17 197:2,8 198:4,15 199:6,8 202:22 205:14 206:13 ,13 207:9,15 208:22 209:3 213:8 215:10,15 ,17 216:8 218:8 ,13 220:6 221:2,11 223:15 224:4 225:6,10,21 227:18 ,21 232:4,7 232:16,18 233:2 234:18 236:17 ,22 237:18 238:21 ,22 239:3 ,16 240:15 240:15 243:3 244:19 245:1 255:2 256:21 257:17 259:9,10 265:20 271:5 273:2,18,20 275:16 276:17 284:19 285:1 ,11 286:1 ,5 289:6,10 290:14 297:4 298:16 **we've** 12:6,7 14:18 14:21 15:16 16:17 20:6 21:6 23:5 29:17 51:6,20 52:5 ,21 64:16 67:1 78:1 ,3 90:19 95:7 103:16 109:17 124:12,13 124:14,16 125:6 127:13 189:4Commercial AC/Furnace Working Group ASRAC Commercial Package Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps and Com mercial Warm Air April 28, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 332 192:22 194:6,7 202:2 204:16 220:8 223:6 232:5 237:10 238:15 240:18 ,19 255:5 265:21 270:19 275:16 290:8 291:2,17 292:4 293:4 297:7 298:16 **weather** 39:22 48:4 99:15 **webcast** 61:14 **webinar** 9:14,20 35:22 37:16 38:6 38:13 39:10,13 ,14 39:17 40:4 49:19 50:14 51:15 87:7 88:12 93:1 ,13 94:2 97:20 286:14 288:13 291:17 298:20 **wedded** 73:8 **Wednesday** 85:19 89:2 **Wednesday/Thur ...**  86:8,10 **week** 36:20 37:10 45:5 61:17 79:15 81:1 ,4,9,10 82:2,3 84:14,16 87:6,8 88:11 91:1 ,7 ,10 91:14 92:4 98:4 105:20 126:5 ,14 128:15 129:3 ,8 132:18 141:22 151:9 158:7 164:19 202:10 203:9 250:11 251:4,7 ,10 257:6 268:5 281:12 286:6 **Weekend** 86:9 **weeks** 22:21 29:18 213:15 215:17 221:9 270:14 279:4 291:9 **weigh** 197:11 ,12 **weighing** 132:10 140:10 **weighs** 197:21 **weight** 104:5 130:4 140:2 170:4 **weighted** 115:9,10 131:10 204:6 **welcome** 4:3 186:7 **went** 73:16 98:3 113:22 179:18 ,20 203:13 237:9 298:9,11 **weren't** 11:22 18:8 35:12 212:19 262:7 **West** 91:15 247:17 **Western** 254:14 **WESTPALEN** 108:1 220:14,17 253:15 **Westphalen** 2:8 8:15 ,15 97:6,9 98:20 105:18 106:15 107:2 109:4 110:9,21 112:1 ,3 113:15 115:18 116:22 117:4,18 118:17 121:20 122:6,12 124:8 126:3 ,18 128:5 130:19 133:10 134:3 135:11 ,17 137:6 138:18 139:21 140:16 141:8,14 142:7 ,11 143:15 150:20 151:8 153:9,20 155:12 155:22 157:7 ,11 158:1 159:5 160:14 161:3 ,16 164:9,12 165:6 166:1 ,8,14 168:2 169:4 170:3 176:19 177:15 ,22 178:4 183:5 ,16,18 184:15 ,22 185:21 187:16 188:10 189:1 ,10 190:2,5 191:2 192:4 193:16 199:3 ,11 201:7 ,11 202:7 204:22 205:18 206:9 207:3 ,12 208:3 210:14 212:7 214:12 215:1 216:16 217:3 ,17 218:12 219:8,12,16 220:2 220:22 221:13 222:6,19 223:21 224:4,17 225:5 ,9 226:2 227:12 228:5 ,9 275:3 ,4 279:14 280:16

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 333 274:19,19 **1.4** 248:1 **1.5** 163:20 181:18 **1/10** 163:10,13 ,13 163:16 **10** 11:11 93:13 137:1 138:1 ,8 139:20 140:14 155:9 160:5 ,9 194:22 203:19 204:4 205:12,21 207:17 211:22 219:17 232:17 ,19 232:21 233:12,13 234:2 235:19 272:8 289:8 298:19 **10-ton** 131:1 132:22 133:2 **10,033** 235:12 **10/11** 91:17 **10:11** 66:16 **10:30** 66:11 ,12,14 66:15 **100** 21:2 56:3 61:20 125:8 133:3 151:3 225:21 252:14 253:10 **1000** 1:9 **1033** 113:22 256:4 265:18 **10th** 91:16 92:1 94:10 **10th/11th** 92:8 **11** 78:11 ,21 79:15 80:4 93:11 113:7 270:16 286:16,17 286:18 292:2 297:3 298:17 ,22 **11:00** 240:14 **11th** 80:21 82:6,8 83:17 88:11 89:19 91:7 92:1 271:13 272:22 275:21 284:4 286:1 291:20 298:19 **12** 42:2 49:8 50:18 50:19 51:11 ,13 58:13 59:12 64:1 78:11 ,18,21 89:17 93:11 113:5 ,8 172:1 206:18 232:21 **12.2** 113:8 **12:00** 240:15 **12:26** 156:15 **12th** 80:4,21 82:6,8 82:20 83:6,17 91:7 270:16 271:13 272:22 275:22 284:4 286:1 297:3 298:22 **13** 50:13 ,15 51:11 113:8 206:17 264:5 **13.5** 217:19,20 **13.7** 204:7 217:19 217:21 **135,000** 129:16 145:12 146:11 **13th** 82:22 **14.8** 217:10 **15** 22:6,17 24:5 41:18 42:1 49:8 56:1 66:15 74:8 77:12 78:12 93:13 113:8 154:22 155:5 ,6 164:6 172:4 204:7 ,7 206:5 ,17 207:17 217:13 ,14 218:6 218:15 ,22 220:1 224:22 225:1 228:14 278:3 ,5 ,22 280:20 281:16,17 **15-person** 77:6 **15-ton** 123:17 126:3 127:15 ,17 172:2 212:3 **15.0** 212:4 **15.5** 204:6 212:2 217:10,10 **15th** 92:22 94:1 111:2 **16** 267:2 **163** 264:5 **17** 49:9 51:6 58:13 77:9,10 164:4,6 **174** 217:14 **174,000** 212:4 **18** 9:16 **19** 156:13 229:6 **1980s** 147:16 **1983** 14:20 **2 2**  56:1 78:12 93:12 159:17 160:3 ,4 163:20 164:6,8 175:9,10 177:12 181:17 184:20 244:1 284:22 285:9

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# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



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