ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 1 PUBLIC HEARING FOR PROPOSED EMERGENCY VEHICLE and SCR MAINTENANCE RULE

Ann Arbor, Michigan June 27, 2012 10:00 a.m.

Presider: Matthew Spears

Panel Members Michael Horowitz Lauren Steele

Reported by: Amy Shankleton-Novess (CER 0838)

Prepared by:

Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 106 North Fourth Avenue Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 2 LIST OF ATTENDEES: PRESENT: Keith Brown Giedrius Ambrozaitis Joseph Kubsh Frank Seymour Brian Chaput Chris Riley Dave Drehobl Kipp Bottorff Roger Lackore Mark Clothier Nakia Simon Steve Spata Wes Chestnut

APPEARING VIA TELECONFERENCE: Josee Lavergne Bridget Rezier Michael Spiess Kimberly Pryor Michael Tham Babak-Pazokifard Paul Abnani Zach EvansENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 3 (1) 

### Ann Arbor, Michigan (2) 

### 10:07 a.m. (3) 

### * * * (4) 

### MR. SPEARS: Good morning. Welcome to all of (5) 

### you with us here in Ann Arbor as well as those listening (6) 

### by phone, and thanks to each of you for taking the time to (7) 

### participate today. (8) 

### My name is Matt Spears, and I am the Director (9) 

### of the Heavy-Duty Onroad and Nonroad Center here at EPA's (10) 

### Office of Transportation and Air Quality. I will be (11) 

### serving as the Presiding Officer for today's hearing, and (12) 

### this hearing is on the proposed Emergency Vehicle and SCR (13) 

### Maintenance Rule. (14) 

### Representing EPA with me is Michael Horowitz (15) 

### from our Office of General Counsel, along with Lauren (16) 

### Steele of our Assessment and Standards Division. (17) 

### Today we will hear testimony on the Emergency (18) 

### Vehicle and SCR Maintenance Rule, which was published in (19) 

### the Federal Register on June 8th. There are three (20) 

### components of our proposed action: first, SCR maintenance (21) 

### provisions; second, regulatory flexibility for nonroad (22) 

### equipment used during emergency responses; and third, (23) 

### regulatory flexibility for dedicated emergency vehicles. (24) 

### For the first component, EPA is proposing to (25) 

### add fluid replenishment to the list of scheduled emissionENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 4 (1) 

### related maintenance in connection with the use of (2) 

### selective catalytic production technologies that use a (3) 

### consumable chemical reductant. We are also proposing (4) 

### minimum fluid refill intervals for diesel engines and (5) 

### vehicles that use SCR. (6) 

### For the second component, EPA is proposing to (7) 

### allow short-term relief from emissions standards for (8) 

### general purpose nonroad equipment, only when such (9) 

### equipment is needed to respond to an emergency, such as a (10) 

### flood or a hurricane. (11) 

### For the third component, EPA is offering (12) 

### engine and vehicle manufacturers the flexibility to ensure (13) 

### that there will not be emission-related power loss on (14) 

### emergency vehicles. I want to highlight that that the (15) 

### advanced emission control technology would remain on the (16) 

### vehicles. The revisions would allow manufacturers to (17) 

### request and EPA to approve modifications to emission (18) 

### control systems on new and in-use emergency vehicles so (19) 

### they can be operated as intended, without reduced (20) 

### performance during emergency situations. (21) 

### While EPA is accepting comments on all parts (22) 

### of the proposed rule, EPA also published the provisions (23) 

### offering flexibility for dedicated emergency vehicles in a (24) 

### parallel Direct Final Rule. The provisions in the Direct (25) 

### Final Rule will take effect August 7th unless we receiveENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 5 (1) 

### adverse comments. (2) 

### We look forward to hearing your testimony (3) 

### today. There is also opportunity for anyone to send us (4) 

### written comments for 30 days, until July 27th. (5) 

### Instructions for submitting written comments are provided (6) 

### in the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, and copies of those (7) 

### instructions are available at the reception table. (8) 

### Before getting started with today's testimony, (9) 

### I would like to take a few minutes to read a prepared (10) 

### statement to outline how we will hold this hearing: (11) 

### "We are conducting this hearing in accordance (12) 

### with Section 307(d)(5) of the Amended Clean Air Act, (13) 

### which requires EPA to provide interested persons (14) 

### with an opportunity for oral presentation of data, (15) 

### views, or arguments, in addition to an opportunity (16) 

### to make written submissions. This hearing provides (17) 

### the opportunity for such oral presentations. (18) 

### The official record of this hearing will be (19) 

### kept open until July 27th, 2012, for the submission (20) 

### of rebuttal and supplemental testimony. The hearing (21) 

### will be conducted informally, and formal rules of (22) 

### evidence will not apply. The Presiding Officer, (23) 

### however, is authorized to strike statements from the (24) 

### record which are deemed irrelevant or needlessly (25) 

### repetitious, and to enforce reasonable limits on theENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 6 (1) 

### duration of the statements of any witness. (2) 

### Witnesses must state their name and (3) 

### affiliation prior to making their statement. When a (4) 

### witness has finished his or her presentation, (5) 

### members of the panel will have an opportunity to ask (6) 

### questions related to the testimony. Witnesses are (7) 

### reminded that any false statements or false (8) 

### responses to questions may be a violation of law. (9) 

### Witnesses will have a chance later in the hearing to (10) 

### provide rebuttal and supplemental testimony. In (11) 

### addition, witnesses can submit rebuttal and (12) 

### supplemental testimony until July 27, 2012. (13) 

### If any members of the audience that wish to (14) 

### testify has not already signed up, please submit (15) 

### your name at the reception table. We should be able (16) 

### to accommodate everyone who wants to testify. (17) 

### Everyone attending should also sign the register at (18) 

### the reception table whether or not you testify. (19) 

### Finally, if you would like a transcript of the (20) 

### proceedings, you should make arrangements directly (21) 

### with the court recorder." (22) 

### Before we bring up the first speaker, I want to (23) 

### ask if there are any clarifying questions? Okay. (24) 

### Before we get started, I would like to take a (25) 

### roll call and brief introduction for those here in AnnENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 7 (1) 

### Arbor, and then second of those listening in by phone. So (2) 

### if we could just start from the front of the room, just so (3) 

### we know who is attending. (4) 

### MR. BROWN: Sure. Keith Brown from the (5) 

### Southeastern Association of Fire Chiefs. (6) 

### MR. SPEARS: Thank you. (7) 

### MR. AMBROZAITIS: Giedrius Ambrozaitis with (8) 

### the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. (9) 

### MR. KUBSH: Joe Kubsh for the Manufacturers of (10) 

### Emission Controls Association. (11) 

### MR. SEYMOUR: Frank Seymour, Detroit Diesel, (12) 

### Compliance and Regulatory Affairs. (13) 

### MR. CHAPUT: Brian Chaput, Detroit Diesel, (14) 

### application engineering. (15) 

### MR. RILEY: Chris Riley, Cummins, (16) 

### Incorporated, regulatory affairs. (17) 

### MR. DREHOBL: Dave Drehobl from Cummins, (18) 

### Incorporated. (19) 

### MR. BOTTORFF: Kipp Bottorff, Cummins, (20) 

### Incorporated. (21) 

### MR. LACKORE: Roger Lackore with Oshkosh (22) 

### Corporation. (23) 

### MR. CLOTHIER: Mark Clothier with Bloomberg (24) 

### News. (25) 

### MS. SIMON: Nakia Simon, Chrysler RegulatoryENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 8 (1) 

### Affairs. (2) 

### MR. SPATA: Steve Spata, National Truck (3) 

### Equipment Association. (4) 

### MR. CHESTNUT: Wes Chestnut with Spartan (5) 

### Motors. (6) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay. Thank you very much. (7) 

### And for those on the phone, if you wouldn't (8) 

### mind just stating your name and affiliation, please? (9) 

### MS. LAVERGNE: Josee Lavergne with Environment (10) 

### Canada. (11) 

### MR. SPEARS: Thank you. (12) 

### MS. REZIER: Bridget Rezier, Cummins. (13) 

### MR. SPEARS: I'm sorry. We could not hear (14) 

### that. (15) 

### MS. REZIER: Bridget Rezier, Cummins. (16) 

### MR. SPEARS: Hi, Bridget. Okay. (17) 

### UNIDENTIFIED: The Air Resources Board. (18) 

### MR. SPEARS: And who is it? (19) 

### MR. SPIESS: Michael with Environment Canada. (20) 

### MR. SPEARS: I'm sorry, I missed the name for (21) 

### those that were from the Air Resources Board. (22) 

### MS. PRYOR: Kimberly Pryor. (23) 

### MR. THAM BABAK-PAZOKIFARD: Michael Tham Babak- (24) 

### Pazokifard. (25) 

### MR. ABNANI: Paul Abnani.ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 9 (1) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay, perhaps once we finish (2) 

### testimony, if those on the phone could stay on the line to (3) 

### make sure that we have a record of those that are on the (4) 

### line. I know that I do have all of the affiliations, but (5) 

### I'm not sure if I got all of the names. Okay, we didn't. (6) 

### Okay, so just if you could please stay on the line (7) 

### afterward we can make sure that we can get those names. (8) 

### Is there anyone else on the phone? (9) 

### Okay. Thank you very much. (10) 

### With that I believe we can begin with the (11) 

### first speaker. Okay, let's see, our first witness on our (12) 

### schedule today, I understand it's both, okay, from the (13) 

### Fire Apparatus and Manufacturers Association, Wesley (14) 

### Chestnut and Roger Lackore. (15) 

### MR. LACKORE: My name is Roger Lackore, and (16) 

### I'm the Director of Product Safety and Compliance with (17) 

### Oshkosh Corporation. (18) 

### MR. CHESTNUT: I'm Wes Chestnut. I manage (19) 

### Compliance and Regulatory Affairs at Spartan Motors, Inc. (20) 

### MR. LACKORE: And both of us are here (21) 

### representing the Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Association (22) 

### and coauthored what you're going to -- our speech. (23) 

### The Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Association, (24) 

### or FAMA, is a group of manufacturers that serve the (25) 

### emergency vehicle community, and our membership includesENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 10 (1) 

### both vehicle and engine manufacturers. We care about our (2) 

### customers and look forward to working in conjunction with (3) 

### the EPA in the implementation of the proposed rule. (4) 

### FAMA supports the actions of the EPA to (5) 

### provide flexibility with regard to the emissions (6) 

### certification of compression-ignition engines in emergency (7) 

### vehicles. Our support extends to all aspects of the (8) 

### Direct Final Rule, and the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (9) 

### affecting diesel particulate filter operation, including: (10) 

### the intent to allow DPF regeneration to occur more (11) 

### frequently; allowing engine calibrations that produce less (12) 

### soot; and other methods that may become clear as the (13) 

### engine manufacturers pursue solutions to compliance from (14) 

### the emergency vehicle user community. (15) 

### FAMA also supports the intent to relax the (16) 

### inducement strategies related to the diesel exhaust fluid, (17) 

### or DEF tank. We believe that a light and buzzer strategy (18) 

### is much more appropriate to emergency vehicles than a (19) 

### strategy that limits the speed of the vehicle, or in other (20) 

### ways hampers its ability to perform life-saving tasks. (21) 

### We also support the NPRM move to increase the (22) 

### minimum DEF tank size for emergency vehicles as long as (23) 

### the effective date of the change provides at least 18 (24) 

### months for manufacturers to retool. (25) 

### The only aspect of the Direct Final Rule whereENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 11 (1) 

### we have recommendations to make concerns the Agency's (2) 

### definition of ambulance and fire truck. We feel that (3) 

### these definitions may preclude other specialty emergency (4) 

### vehicles with similar duty cycles, such as rescue trucks, (5) 

### command and communication apparatus, SWAT vehicles, or (6) 

### other vocational vehicles used for emergency response, but (7) 

### that are not directly associated with either fire (8) 

### suppression or patient transport. Therefore, FAMA (9) 

### proposes to replace the definitions of the fire truck and (10) 

### ambulance with a general definition of emergency vehicle (11) 

### as follows: "Emergency vehicle: a vocational vehicle or (12) 

### other mobile equipment designed to be used under emergency (13) 

### conditions such as fire suppression, patient transport, (14) 

### police activity, or homeland security operations." (15) 

### We believe this broader definition will (16) 

### encompass the range of vehicles susceptible to the problem (17) 

### this rulemaking is intended to address. (18) 

### While this concludes our comments on the Final (19) 

### Direct Rule and the NPRM in question, FAMA would also like (20) 

### to take this opportunity to address the treatment of (21) 

### emergency vehicles in the recent Greenhouse Gas and Fuel (22) 

### Economy Rulemaking. (23) 

### Without taking anything away from our sincere (24) 

### support for the current EPA actions related to the Heavy (25) 

### Duty Highway Program, Revisions for Emergency vehicles, weENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 12 (1) 

### feel compelled to point out that none of the issues being (2) 

### addressed by this rulemaking were unanticipated. FAMA (3) 

### representatives expressed serious concerns in discussions (4) 

### with the EPA prior to implementation of both the 2007 and (5) 

### the 2010 emissions regulations. Both the effect of unique (6) 

### emergency vehicle duty cycles on DPF regeneration, and the (7) 

### SCR driver inducement topics were covered. We believe (8) 

### that had these concerns been heeded at that time, a (9) 

### considerable amount of frustration, risk, and the EPA's (10) 

### need to react "after the fact" could have been avoided. (11) 

### It would also have avoided what we anticipate to be (12) 

### considerable work and expense once this direct final rule (13) 

### takes effect. (14) 

### While that is water over the dam, we would (15) 

### like to remind the EPA that several FAMA member companies (16) 

### expressed concerns regarding the impact of the Greenhouse (17) 

### Gas and Fuel Economy rulemaking on emergency vehicle (18) 

### performance. We pointed out the potential impact of (19) 

### restricting the use of aggressive tire treads by mandating (20) 

### the use of low rolling resistance tires. Like the DPF and (21) 

### SCR issue, it is unlikely that the impact of this tire (22) 

### tread restriction will be apparent until lower rolling (23) 

### resistance tires have been implemented and emergency (24) 

### vehicle users begin to experience reduced off-road (25) 

### traction and reduced high-speed cornering andENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 13 (1) 

### maneuverability. As with recent events and complaints (2) 

### that arose from the Southeast Association of Fire Chiefs, (3) 

### there may be a significant lag before the true impacts of (4) 

### the Greenhouse Gas and Fuel Efficiency Rules are realized. (5) 

### FAMA therefore urges the EPA to revisit our (6) 

### previous comments and data on this issue and reconsider (7) 

### authorizing an emergency vehicle exemption to the rolling (8) 

### resistance requirements now, so that we can avoid the (9) 

### potential for another hearing like this in the future. (10) 

### The very minimal impact this action would have on over-all (11) 

### vehicle emissions seems like a small price to pay to avoid (12) 

### another industry-upsetting event. (13) 

### That being said, we at FAMA would like to (14) 

### express our appreciation to Lauren Steele, Matt Spears, (15) 

### and others at the EPA who have worked very hard to (16) 

### understand the needs of the emergency vehicle community. (17) 

### Your enthusiasm and dedication has been apparent (18) 

### throughout the process. We are confident that the (19) 

### nation's first responders will benefit from the Agency's (20) 

### greater level of engagement both now and in the years to (21) 

### come. Thank you. (22) 

### MR. CHESTNUT: The one thing that I would like (23) 

### to add to the proposed definition for emergency vehicle in (24) 

### the Proposed Rulemaking and in the Final Rule, an (25) 

### emergency situation can be defined as a number of things.ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 14 (1) 

### I think by, if you take a look at our proposed definition (2) 

### it gives some examples of what an emergency -- could (3) 

### constitute an emergency condition which would further (4) 

### clarify what an emergency situation is, and at this point (5) 

### we believe that's a concern with other manufacturers as (6) 

### well as engine manufacturers, so. (7) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay. Thank you very much. (8) 

### MR. HOROWITZ: Oh, wait, wait. (9) 

### MR. SPEARS: Oh. We have an opportunity here (10) 

### for questions for clarification. (11) 

### MR. HOROWITZ: Yeah. First, just a (12) 

### clarification on the comment with regard to the (13) 

### definition, your comment is directed towards the Notice of (14) 

### Proposed Rulemaking. You're not suggesting that we (15) 

### withhold the Direct Final Rule based on that comment, (16) 

### right? It's not an adverse comment on the Direct Final (17) 

### Rule? (18) 

### MR. LACKORE: It's -- no. It's not an adverse (19) 

### comment. Nothing in our testimony today should be (20) 

### construed as something that would slow up the (21) 

### implementation of the Direct Final Rule. (22) 

### MR. HOROWITZ: Just wanted to clarify. (23) 

### MR. SPEARS: Questions? (24) 

### MR. LACKORE: Thank you very much. (25) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay, thank you very much.ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 15 (1) 

### Next on my list here is Keith Brown with (2) 

### Southeastern Association of Fire Chiefs. (3) 

### MR. BROWN: Thank you, Matt. (4) 

### Again my name is Keith Brown. I represent the (5) 

### Southeastern Association of Fire Chiefs. I'm actually a (6) 

### fire chief from south Mississippi. I've been in the (7) 

### business for quite a while, and I apologize for not having (8) 

### a prepared statement, but I found out about ten minutes (9) 

### before the meeting I was supposed to speak, and Dan sends (10) 

### his regards. He was supposed to attend but had to back (11) 

### out for personal reasons; something came up at the last (12) 

### minute. But anyway, to echo what Roger and Wes said, we (13) 

### would like to commend the EPA and thank you for having (14) 

### your willingness to listen to us and hear our concerns and (15) 

### never had any ill-effect to what we were saying to you, so (16) 

### thank you for your willingness to listen and work with us. (17) 

### Across the United States ever since we opened (18) 

### this up we've got flooded by emails and different letters (19) 

### and phone calls of people that were having issues with (20) 

### these regeneration issues, so that's kind of what got us (21) 

### to try to get some amended rulemakings to the process to (22) 

### where we could actually do our business and not have to (23) 

### worry about someone getting hurt or killed in the process, (24) 

### so again, thank you for what you do and thank you for (25) 

### listening to us.ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 16 (1) 

### With that being said, I think it's pretty (2) 

### obvious why we're here, and I'm not going to get into it (3) 

### any further, but thank you again for what you do, and our (4) 

### phones or emails are always open, and do you have any (5) 

### questions for me? (6) 

### MR. SPEARS: Thank you very much. (7) 

### Are there any other questions of this witness? (8) 

### MS. STEELE: I have one. (9) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay. (10) 

### MR. BROWN: Okay. (11) 

### MS. STEELE: Keith, do you have a sense from (12) 

### your emails, how many of the emails are folks that are (13) 

### saying, "We don't have any problems with our trucks," (14) 

### because how many people are saying that they need help? (15) 

### MR. BROWN: I'm sorry, Lauren, and I told you (16) 

### I was going to expand. I actually have two trucks within (17) 

### my department that have Cummins engines in them and (18) 

### haven't had an issue. So personally I have not had an (19) 

### issue. I think in the state of Mississippi, at current (20) 

### count I was telling Roger a while ago, I think there's (21) 

### currently five, and I can't give you specifics on those (22) 

### five, but that's as of Friday because Dan just sent out (23) 

### the paperwork to try to get some numbers back within the (24) 

### last two weeks, and as of Friday we had five surveys (25) 

### filled out of issues with trucks. So I can follow-upENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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### 17 (1) 

### after I get back. Dan was not able to send me that (2) 

### information yet, but I can speak for my department; we've (3) 

### had good results, so. (4) 

### MS. STEELE: Thank you. (5) 

### MR. BROWN: Thank you. (6) 

### MR. SPEARS: Thank you very much. (7) 

### MR. BROWN: Thank you. (8) 

### MR. SPEARS: Any other questions? (9) 

### Okay, thanks. Thank you very much, Keith. (10) 

### Actually, that is the entire list of folks (11) 

### that have signed up to testify today. First I would like (12) 

### to ask if there are any other supplemental comments or (13) 

### comments for rebuttal at this point? (14) 

### Okay. (15) 

### And finally, are there any other people here (16) 

### today in Ann Arbor that would like to make a statement at (17) 

### this hearing? (18) 

### Okay. Any other questions? (19) 

### Conclude? (20) 

### MR. HOROWITZ: Yeah, sure. (21) 

### MR. SPEARS: I can't think of anything. (22) 

### MR. HOROWITZ: Yeah. (23) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay. Well -- (24) 

### MS. STEELE: If there are people who wish to (25) 

### remain and have a dialogue after the adjournment of thisENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 18 (1) 

### hearing, I understand that we have the room reserved all (2) 

### day, but if EPA is in the room we must document it and (3) 

### docket the occurrence of that meeting and the nature of (4) 

### the discussion. (5) 

### MR. SPEARS: Okay. Good point. Thank you. (6) 

### At this point if there are no other people (7) 

### here at the hearing today that would like to make a (8) 

### statement or ask questions for clarification, I will be (9) 

### adjourning this hearing. (10) 

### (At 10:27 a.m., hearing concluded.) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25)ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

(734) 330-5472 Ann Arbor Reporting Service, Inc. 

### 19 STATE OF MICHIGAN ) COUNTY OF WASHTENAW )ss.

I certify that this transcript is a complete, true, and correct transcript to the best of my ability of the PUBLIC HEARING FOR PROPOSED EMERGENCY VEHICLE and SCR MAINTENANCE RULE, held in Ann Arbor, Michigan on June 27, 2012 10:07 a.m.

I also certify that I am not a relative or employee of a party, or a relative or employee of an attorney for a party, nor have a contract with a party, nor am I financially interested in the aforementioned action.

DATED: July 2, 2012

_______________________________________ Amy Shankleton-Novess (CER0838)

Monday, July 02, 2012 Notary Public, Washtenaw County, Michigan Acting in Washtenaw County My Commission Expires: 10/23/18

### ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HEARING - JUNE 27, 2012

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