UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 

PENSACOLA DIVISION 

IN RE: 3M COMBAT ARMS 

EARPLUG PRODUCTS

 Case No. 3:19md2885 

LIABILITY LITIGATION 

Camarillorazo, 7:20cv98 

 

Judge M. Casey Rodgers 

Magistrate Judge Gary R. Jones 

DEPOSITION DESIGNATIONS ORDER NO. 1 

This Order addresses Defendants’ objections and counter-designations to 

Plaintiff’s affirmative deposition designations and Plaintiff’s objections to 

Defendants’ counter-designations thereto for the below witness depositions: 

1. Camarillo, Ruby (1/25/2021) 

2. Campanella, Aaron (1/29/2021) 

3. Glick, Piper Christie (3/19/2019) 

4. McGinley, Brian (12/20/2019) 

5. McKissick, Margaret (4/23/2021) 

6. Rosario-Rivera, David (2/8/2021) 

SO ORDERED, on this 31st day of October, 2021. 

M. CASEY RODGERS 

 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE 

Case 7:20-cv-00098-MCR-GRJ Document 117 Filed 10/31/21 Page 1 of 151
EXHIBIT A 

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

Colors

Plaintiff Affirmatives

Defense Objections

Defense Counters

Plaintiff Objections

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 2

Designation Preserved Objections Previous 

Rulings

New Objections Rulings

9:4 - 9:6 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 9 4 Can you please state your full

 9 5 name for the record?

 9 6 A. Ruby Inella Camarillo.

15:18 - 16:4 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 15 18 Ms. Camarillo, before we went off the

 15 19 record, I believe I was asking you to

 15 20 describe your educational background.

 15 21 And would you mind doing that again for

 15 22 me, please?

 15 23 A. That's fine.

 16 1 I have an associate's degree in

 16 2 law enforcement, criminal justice law

 16 3 enforcement. I have two certificate

 16 4 degrees in business management.

16:14 - 16:18 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 16 14 Q. I want to shift gears a little

 16 15 bit and talk about your relationship with

 16 16 Mr. Camarillo. When did you two get

 16 17 married?

 16 18 A. We got married April 18th, 2005.

17:6 - 17:21 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 17 6 Q. Ms. Camarillo, what did you do

 17 7 to prepare for your deposition today?

 17 8 A. I just had a brief phone call

 17 9 with counsel.

 17 10 Q. And who would that be that you

 17 11 had the phone call with?

 17 12 A. Ms. Amanda, and I can't remember

 17 13 the other young lady's name.

 17 14 Q. No -- no problem. I won't -- I

 17 15 won't hold you to a -- to a name test.

 17 16 "Ms. Amanda" works fine.

 17 17 Did you review any documents

 17 18 during your phone call with I'll call her

 17 19 Ms. Hunt?

 17 20 A. Yes. I reviewed I believe it

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 17 21 was a subpoena that was sent over.

18:21 - 19:21 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 18 21 Q. All right. So, Ms. Camarillo, I

 18 22 want to actually pull up a document that

 18 23 I -- I think Ms. Hunt sent you via

 19 1 e-mail. Do you have access to your

 19 2 e-mail before you?

 19 3 A. Yes.

 19 4 Q. And if you could please pull up

 19 5 the document that is entitled "2021-01-19

 19 6 Subpoena to Produce Documents (Ruby

 19 7 Camarillo)."

 19 8 A. Okay.

 19 9 Q. And, Ms. Camarillo, can you take

 19 10 a moment to see if you've reviewed this

 19 11 document before?

 19 12 (Witness reviews document.)

 19 13 A. Yes.

 19 14 Q. Okay. And if you wouldn't mind

 19 15 turning to the very last page of this

 19 16 document, at the top it says, "Request

 19 17 For Production," and then at the bottom,

 19 18 there should be a number 5. If you could

 19 19 let me know when you're there, that would

 19 20 be great.

 19 21 A. Yes, I see it. I'm there.

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21:3 - 21:9 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 21 3 Q. Request for Production No. 4

 21 4 asks for all photographs of Mr. Camarillo

 21 5 wearing hearing protection devices. Do

 21 6 you have any photographs in your

 21 7 possession of Mr. Camarillo wearing

 21 8 hearing protection devices?

 21 9 A. No, ma'am.

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21:10 - 21:21 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 21 10 Q. Are you familiar or have you

 21 11 ever observed Mr. Camarillo wearing

 21 12 hearing protection devices during the

 21 13 time that you've known him?

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 21 14 A. No, ma'am. I do not recall, to

 21 15 be honest.

 21 16 Q. Okay. So as far as you can

 21 17 recall, you don't remember observing Mr.

 21 18 Camarillo ever wearing hearing protection

 21 19 devices. Is that a better way to state

 21 20 it?

 21 21 A. Right. Yes.

24:2 - 24:13 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 24 2 Q. Ms. Camarillo, when did you

 24 3 first meet Mr. Camarillo?

 24 4 A. I believe we met in -- I don't

 24 5 recall if it was 2004, approximate date.

 24 6 Q. And where did you guys meet?

 24 7 A. Online.

 24 8 Q. And recognizing that you met

 24 9 online in August of 2004, when was it

 24 10 that you first, I guess, spoke by phone

 24 11 or in person?

 24 12 A. The same month that we met for a

 24 13 date.

24:18 - 25:3 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 24 18 Q. Okay. And how often from the

 24 19 time of August 2004 up until when you all

 24 20 got married did you interact with Mr.

 24 21 Camarillo?

 24 22 A. Quite often.

 24 23 Q. How would you describe "quite

 25 1 often"?

 25 2 A. Either every day or every other

 25 3 day.

25:8 - 25:19 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 25 8 Q. Sure. So, I know that you all

 25 9 met online, but where did you actually

 25 10 meet up in person?

 25 11 A. On the military base. I worked

 25 12 for the -- the government at that time.

 25 13 Q. What military base did you work

 25 14 at?

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 25 15 A. Fort Hood.

 25 16 Q. And what was your responsibility

 25 17 or job there?

 25 18 A. I was a sergeant security guard

 25 19 that manned the gates and --

25:23 - 26:1 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 25 23 THE WITNESS: Inspected all the

 26 1 buildings for threats at Fort Hood.

26:8 - 26:10 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 26 8 Q. How long did you serve as a

 26 9 sergeant security guard there?

 26 10 A. Three years.

27:3 - 27:7 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 27 3 So, you worked for three years as a

 27 4 sergeant security guard, and then after

 27 5 that, you went to work at a credit union;

 27 6 is that correct?

 27 7 A. That's correct.

27:16 - 29:10 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 27 16 Q. And was this also in the Fort

 27 17 Hood area or nearby?

 27 18 A. Yes. Killeen.

 27 19 Q. Where did you go after the

 27 20 credit union?

 27 21 A. Baylor Scott & White Medical.

 27 22 Q. And how long were you there for?

 27 23 A. Ten years.

 28 1 Q. So that was until just recently

 28 2 then or the last year or so; correct?

 28 3 A. Correct.

 28 4 Q. And what was your job

 28 5 responsibilities there?

 28 6 A. Supervisor of clinic operations.

 28 7 Q. And is Baylor also in the

 28 8 Killeen area?

 28 9 A. Yes, ma'am.

 28 10 Q. Thank you. I apologize, I'm not

 28 11 super familiar with Texas geography, so

 28 12 the other folks on the record might be

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 28 13 more familiar.

 28 14 So -- so, after Baylor, where

 28 15 did you end up going?

 28 16 A. Worked for myself, started my

 28 17 own business.

 28 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ms. -- Ms.

 28 19 Ruby, I'm sorry, could you tilt your

 28 20 camera down a little bit so we can see

 28 21 your full face? Thank you, ma'am.

 28 22 THE WITNESS: No problem.

 28 23 Q. And so, starting in around 2020,

 29 1 you started working for yourself. Is

 29 2 that fair?

 29 3 A. Yes.

 29 4 Q. And may I ask what you currently

 29 5 do?

 29 6 A. Yes. I contract with --

 29 7 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry.

 29 8 Could you repeat that.

 29 9 THE WITNESS: I own a fleet of

 29 10 delivery trucks.

29:14 - 30:7 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 29 14 far afield there, but -- so back to when

 29 15 you met Mr. Camarillo in August of 2004,

 29 16 you were saying that you saw him almost

 29 17 daily or every other day because you were

 29 18 both at Fort Hood? Is that correct?

 29 19 A. Yes. But I seen him after

 29 20 hours, but yes.

 29 21 Q. Okay. So you didn't interact on

 29 22 base on the job. It was more when you

 29 23 guys, you know, sort of went home and

 30 1 were done with the day for work. Is that

 30 2 fair?

 30 3 A. Correct.

 30 4 Q. Okay. At some point, did you

 30 5 and Mr. Camarillo start to live together?

 30 6 A. Yes. Approximately -- I believe

 30 7 approximately February of '05.

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32:12 - 34:16 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 32 12 off was I was asking when you -- when you

 32 13 started living with Mr. Camarillo. And

 32 14 when was that?

 32 15 A. We started staying together

 32 16 approximately February of '05, I believe.

 32 17 That's approximate date.

 32 18 Q. And was that also in the Killeen

 32 19 area?

 32 20 A. Yes.

 32 21 Q. And have you and Mr. Camarillo

 32 22 always lived together in the Killeen area

 32 23 since then?

 33 1 A. We have. But he actually left

 33 2 on several deployments, and he actually

 33 3 had PCS prior to our daughter graduating

 33 4 from high school to Fort Benning,

 33 5 Georgia, and I stayed back with my

 33 6 daughter.

 33 7 Q. Okay. So other than during his

 33 8 deployments and the time in which he

 33 9 PCS'd to Fort Benning, you and Mr.

 33 10 Camarillo had always lived in Killeen.

 33 11 Is that right?

 33 12 A. Yes.

 33 13 Q. Do you recall approximately when

 33 14 it was that Mr. Camarillo was at Fort

 33 15 Benning?

 33 16 A. Approximately, I think he --

 33 17 approximately, he left in '14. I'm --

 33 18 I'm guesstimating. I think around 2014.

 33 19 And then he came back I believe in '17 or

 33 20 '18.

 33 21 Q. And so, during the time period

 33 22 from 2014, approximately, to 2017 or

 33 23 2018, how often did you see Mr.

 34 1 Camarillo?

 34 2 A. Every day.

 34 3 Q. How did you see Mr. Camarillo

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 34 4 every day? Was it a FaceTime, Skype

 34 5 situation? Or how did that work?

 34 6 A. Yes. FaceTime because my son

 34 7 actually was with him.

 34 8 Q. And then when Mr. Camarillo was

 34 9 deployed, how often would you communicate

 34 10 with him?

 34 11 A. During deployments, it varied,

 34 12 especially during the first one.

 34 13 Probably once the first six months or

 34 14 something like that. Towards the last

 34 15 few deployments, we probably talked maybe

 34 16 once a week.

35:1 - 35:8 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 35 1 So, when Mr. Camarillo was

 35 2 deployed, how often would you communicate

 35 3 with him?

 35 4 A. During the first deployment,

 35 5 maybe once every six months. But the

 35 6 last couple of deployments, it was

 35 7 approximately once a week, once or twice

 35 8 a week.

35:9 - 35:15 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 35 9 Q. And during those deployments,

 35 10 the -- either the first or last, was it

 35 11 always communication by phone, or was

 35 12 there another means by which you could

 35 13 communicate with him?

 35 14 A. With Georgia, he was by phone or

 35 15 e-mail but mostly by phone.

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 35 16 Q. Ms. Camarillo, when did you

 35 17 first learn that Mr. Camarillo had

 35 18 hearing loss?

 35 19 A. I actually do not recall the

 35 20 exact date or time.

35:21 - 36:7 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 35 21 Q. Do you have an approximation or

 35 22 a -- or a general sense of when you would

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 35 23 have learned it, recognizing you may not

 36 1 know the exact date or -- or time?

 36 2 A. I do not at this time. I do not

 36 3 recall.

 36 4 Q. When you first met Mr. Camarillo

 36 5 in August of 2004, do you recall him

 36 6 having hearing loss at that point?

 36 7 A. I do -- I do not recall.

37:3 - 38:3 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 37 3 Was there any period of time

 37 4 that you knew Mr. Camarillo where you did

 37 5 not know he had hearing loss?

 37 6 A. At the beginning of the

 37 7 relationship.

 37 8 Q. And so, other than at the

 37 9 beginning of the relationship, do you

 37 10 have any other recollection of when you

 37 11 sort of came to learn this information

 37 12 about his hearing loss?

 37 13 A. I do not recall the exact date,

 37 14 but I do recall conversations where I

 37 15 thought he was ignoring me.

 37 16 Q. And when do you first remember

 37 17 that happening?

 37 18 A. I do not recall the exact date,

 37 19 but I know it was after we moved in

 37 20 together, so -- because before, we were

 37 21 on the phone. But once we moved in

 37 22 together is when I kind of noticed when

 37 23 the kids were around him, if I say

 38 1 something, if I'm on the couch and he's

 38 2 in the kitchen, I just thought he was

 38 3 ignoring me.

38:9 - 39:21 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 38 9 Starting in approximately

 38 10 February of 2005 when you moved in

 38 11 together, that's when you first started

 38 12 to notice that maybe he was having

 38 13 difficulty with hearing?

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 38 14 A. Approximately, yes.

 38 15 Q. Had Mr. Camarillo ever

 38 16 complained to you about his hearing loss?

 38 17 A. He had, but I do not recall the

 38 18 exact dates.

 38 19 Q. Do you recall what he sort of

 38 20 told you about his hearing loss when he

 38 21 has talked to you about it?

 38 22 A. Just when I would get mad

 38 23 because he wasn't responding, and he

 39 1 would just make comments like, "I didn't

 39 2 hear you." That's approximately how far

 39 3 it went with me.

 39 4 Q. Other than those types of

 39 5 communications, have there been any more

 39 6 detailed conversations about Mr.

 39 7 Camarillo's hearing loss?

 39 8 A. Only when I saw him with the

 39 9 hearing aids. I didn't know what they

 39 10 were, and I almost threw them away.

 39 11 Q. And do you recall approximately

 39 12 when you first saw the hearing aids?

 39 13 A. I don't recall the exact -- when

 39 14 I first noticed them, but I do know that

 39 15 he had been wearing them quite a bit, and

 39 16 that's when he had them on the sink, and

 39 17 I didn't know that's what it was. I just

 39 18 thought it was part of military gear.

 39 19 And I was going to ask were they're any

 39 20 good, to throw them away, and he said,

 39 21 "No, no, that's for my ears."

39:22 - 40:6 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 39 22 So I didn't know what it was,

 39 23 but I didn't -- I do not know the exact

 40 1 date.

 40 2 Q. Do you know if it was before or

 40 3 after he came back from PCS at Fort

 40 4 Benning?

 40 5 A. Oh, that was before, but I'm not

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 40 6 sure of an exact date.

40:7 - 40:16 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 40 7 Q. Have you noticed Mr. Camarillo's

 40 8 hearing loss changing over time?

 40 9 A. I do not recall.

 40 10 Q. Do you recall if there was any

 40 11 particular instance or deployment in

 40 12 which you noticed Mr. Camarillo's hearing

 40 13 loss getting worse?

 40 14 A. No, I don't recall. I don't

 40 15 recall the exact dates or I even noticed

 40 16 -- what dates I noticed it.

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 40 17 Q. Recognizing that you might not

 40 18 know the exact dates, you know, based on

 40 19 what you've observed, do you think that

 40 20 Mr. Hearing -- or Mr. Camarillo's hearing

 40 21 loss has changed over time?

 40 22 A. Yes.

 40 23 Q. And -- and how so?

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41:2 - 41:6 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 41 2 A. I can't say exactly how. I just

 41 3 know that he just -- I just thought he

 41 4 was ignoring me. That was my biggest

 41 5 thing. Not knowing that he had hearing

 41 6 loss, I just took it as him ignoring me.

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41:7 - 41:10 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 41 7 Q. And so, other than him ignoring

 41 8 you, are there any other ways that --

 41 9 that you have noticed that his hearing

 41 10 loss has impacted him?

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 41 12 A. Yeah, I do not recall.

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 41 17 So starting with his first

 41 18 deployment, when you communicated with

 41 19 him by phone, did you ever have any

 41 20 difficulty with communicating with him?

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 41 21 A. Yes. The phones -- the phones

 41 22 were not the clearest on the first

 41 23 deployment. So, you know, it was very

 42 1 short and sweet. They only allowed them

 42 2 so much time on the phone because I guess

 42 3 of the -- I don't know why. I just know

 42 4 that we was only permitted like a few

 42 5 minutes on the phone. So I would have to

 42 6 repeat myself several times to him.

 42 7 Q. And I think you said the -- the

 42 8 phone quality was poor during that time?

 42 9 A. On my -- on -- at least it

 42 10 sounded like -- he said on my end, it

 42 11 sounded like it was poor. I could hear

 42 12 him quite well, but when I respond back,

 42 13 he said that the phones were quite poor

 42 14 on that end.

42:16 - 43:1 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 42 16 Now, what about his next

 42 17 deployment? Do you recall having any

 42 18 difficulties communicating by phone with

 42 19 him?

 42 20 A. Just repeating myself a lot.

 42 21 Q. And is the same true for each of

 42 22 Mr. Camarillo's next couple of

 42 23 deployments?

 43 1 A. Yes, ma'am.

43:2 - 43:11 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 43 2 Q. Now, are you familiar with the

 43 3 term "tinnitus" or "tinnitus"?

 43 4 A. I've heard of it, but I'm not a

 43 5 doctor, so I don't want to -- I've heard

 43 6 of it, you know.

 43 7 Q. Fair enough.

 43 8 I don't think I had heard of it

 43 9 prior to all of this. But as -- it's, I

 43 10 guess, the doctors' term for, you know,

 43 11 ringing in the ears kind of, basically.

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 43 12 So, at any time, had you learned

 43 13 that Mr. Camarillo had tinnitus or a

 43 14 ringing in his ears?

 43 15 A. I do not recall. I never went

 43 16 to any doctor visits or anything with

 43 17 him.

 43 18 Q. Had Mr. Camarillo ever told you

 43 19 about this -- a ringing in his ears?

 43 20 A. I do not recall. He's very -- I

 43 21 don't know if you guys spoke with him,

 43 22 but he's very, like, manly, so he don't

 43 23 complain a lot, especially to me.

44:10 - 44:14 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 44 10 Is it fair to say that you've

 44 11 never talked about the results of any

 44 12 doctors' appointments or medical exams

 44 13 that Mr. Camarillo has had?

 44 14 A. That's correct.

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 44 15 Q. Do you know if Mr. Camarillo has

 44 16 ever gone to a medical appointment

 44 17 related to his hearing loss or his

 44 18 tinnitus?

 44 19 A. Yes.

 44 20 Q. Do you have any sense of how

 44 21 many or -- he's gone to?

 44 22 A. I do not recall. I just would

 44 23 get the reminder calls, but I do not

 45 1 recall.

46:1 - 46:16 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 46 1 Q. Can you describe for me how

 46 2 you've noticed Mr. Camarillo's hearing

 46 3 loss affecting him in his day-to-day

 46 4 life?

 46 5 A. I wouldn't know.

 46 6 Q. Why not?

 46 7 A. I'm not Mr. Camarillo. I

 46 8 wouldn't know how his hearing loss would

 46 9 affect him. I would have no idea.

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 46 10 Q. And so, I -- I know you said

 46 11 earlier that perhaps you don't talk that

 46 12 much about the medical appointments. But

 46 13 do you two ever discuss how his hearing

 46 14 loss affects him on a day-to-day basis?

 46 15 A. No. I don't recall. I don't

 46 16 recall any of that discussion.

46:17 - 49:12 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 46 17 Q. And same question with respect

 46 18 to ringing in the ears, is it fair to say

 46 19 that you and Mr. Camarillo have not

 46 20 discussed how, if at all, ringing in the

 46 21 ears affects his day-to-day life?

 46 22 A. No. Not -- not in reference to

 46 23 his everyday life, no, ma'am.

 47 1 Q. Have you talked about how it

 47 2 affects Mr. Camarillo in any other way?

 47 3 A. He -- I would just say he

 47 4 wouldn't go to certain places with me.

 47 5 Like, we -- we never did concerts,

 47 6 anything like that. He wouldn't do any

 47 7 of those. We wouldn't do concerts or

 47 8 anything where it was very loud. We

 47 9 wouldn't -- we'd just scratch it off the

 47 10 calendar. We wouldn't do any of that.

 47 11 Q. Any other activities that you

 47 12 would scratch off the calendar as a

 47 13 result of, you know, Mr. Camarillo's

 47 14 hearing-related injuries?

 47 15 A. No. Just anywhere where it was

 47 16 going to be like a crowd or a lot of loud

 47 17 noises, he wouldn't -- he wouldn't want

 47 18 to go, so I would usually go by myself or

 47 19 wouldn't go at all.

 47 20 Q. When did that start happening in

 47 21 your relationship?

 47 22 A. I do not recall the exact date

 47 23 of when it started for him. So I do not

 48 1 recall the exact date.

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 48 2 Q. Do you recall if it would have

 48 3 been before or after he PCS'd to Fort

 48 4 Benning?

 48 5 A. It was before, approximately

 48 6 before.

 48 7 Q. And do you have any sense of how

 48 8 much before that time?

 48 9 A. No, I do not recall.

 48 10 Q. As you sit here today, are there

 48 11 any other ways that Mr. Camarillo's

 48 12 hearing injuries have affected your

 48 13 relationship with him?

 48 14 A. Yes. I would say that it caused

 48 15 a lot of marital problems based on I just

 48 16 thought it was him ignoring us, myself

 48 17 and some of the kids. And I would just

 48 18 sometimes fly off the handle because I

 48 19 don't, or still don't understand the

 48 20 hearing issues or what they cause or what

 48 21 don't cause. So it caused a lot of

 48 22 friction between him and I in reference

 48 23 to the hearing loss. And I had to get

 49 1 some counseling myself for it because I

 49 2 thought it was just him not being

 49 3 interested anymore.

 49 4 And like I say, I just -- it's

 49 5 hard. It's hard. I don't know if you've

 49 6 ever lived with someone that can't hear

 49 7 but you don't know they can't hear

 49 8 because they don't discuss their medical,

 49 9 you know, life with you. So I believe

 49 10 that was a lot of friction between our

 49 11 communication and our marriage, of me not

 49 12 knowing that that's what the issue was.

49:13 - 50:2 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 49 13 Q. I'm understanding this is a

 49 14 sensitive topic, so if you want to take a

 49 15 break at any moment, please let me know.

 49 16 Are there any other pieces

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 16

 49 17 related to your marriage that have caused

 49 18 friction other than the hearing loss?

 49 19 A. Can you rephrase that?

 49 20 Q. Sure. I -- I -- I understand

 49 21 that it sounds like the hearing loss has

 49 22 created some friction in the marriage.

 49 23 And I just -- my question is, other than

 50 1 the hearing loss, are there any other

 50 2 issues that have caused similar friction?

50:5 - 50:6 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 50 5 A. I prefer not to answer that

 50 6 question.

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50:8 - 51:8 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 50 8 it this way. Not getting into

 50 9 necessarily the details of what any

 50 10 potential other issues are, are there

 50 11 other issues that have caused friction in

 50 12 the marriage?

 50 13 A. The main part of it was the

 50 14 communication piece. There has been some

 50 15 other areas, but the main cause was

 50 16 feeling that the other partner was

 50 17 disinterested or not -- or ignoring them.

 50 18 Q. Understood.

 50 19 And is -- is part of that issue

 50 20 the fact that there's a lack of

 50 21 communication about the hearing loss

 50 22 itself?

 50 23 A. I believe that, yes, but me not

 51 1 understanding exactly what it meant at

 51 2 the time before I started looking into

 51 3 it, I just felt -- I don't know if you

 51 4 know what I mean when I say you felt

 51 5 unwanted, ignored, you know, so I -- it

 51 6 was -- that -- that's about it. Just

 51 7 felt like he, like, wasn't showing any

 51 8 attention anymore.

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52:9 - 55:10 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 52 9 Are there any other ways that

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 52 10 you can think of sitting here today that

 52 11 his hearing-related injuries have

 52 12 impacted your relationship?

 52 13 A. Any other ways than what I said,

 52 14 just -- just the communication, breakdown

 52 15 in communication.

 52 16 Q. Okay. As far as you're aware,

 52 17 are there any activities that Mr.

 52 18 Camarillo can no longer participate in

 52 19 because of his hearing loss or tinnitus?

 52 20 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 52 21 A. I do not -- I do not recall.

 52 22 Q. Ms. Camarillo, does Mr.

 52 23 Camarillo still wear hearing aids?

 53 1 A. I do not recall. I believe so,

 53 2 but I do not recall. I don't see him

 53 3 every day like I used to.

 53 4 Q. And how often do you see him

 53 5 currently?

 53 6 A. Maybe twice a week.

 53 7 Q. Is there a reason that you do

 53 8 not see Mr. Camarillo daily?

 53 9 A. Yes.

 53 10 Q. Why is that?

 53 11 A. We're currently separated.

 53 12 Q. When you saw Mr. Camarillo most

 53 13 recently, was he wearing hearing aids?

 53 14 A. I believe -- I'm not sure. I do

 53 15 not recall. I didn't pay as much

 53 16 attention.

 53 17 Q. Do you know if there are certain

 53 18 activities for which Mr. Camarillo does

 53 19 not wear his hearing aids?

 53 20 A. No. I wouldn't know.

 53 21 Q. Are you aware of whether Mr.

 53 22 Camarillo has lost his most recent pair

 53 23 of hearing aids?

 54 1 A. I'm not sure. I don't recall.

 54 2 I know he just asked me if I seen some

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 18

 54 3 batteries or something, but I don't

 54 4 recall. I'm not sure.

 54 5 Q. Ms. Camarillo, how many children

 54 6 do you have?

 54 7 A. Total, I have four children.

 54 8 Q. How -- how would you describe

 54 9 Mr. Camarillo as a father?

 54 10 A. He's a great father. Even with

 54 11 the kids that I had prior in our -- my

 54 12 previous relationship, all my kids call

 54 13 him "Dad." So he is a great father with

 54 14 the children.

 54 15 Q. What types of activities does

 54 16 Mr. Camarillo do with your children?

 54 17 A. Whatever they want to do,

 54 18 honestly. I don't recall the exact

 54 19 activities. I don't know because he'll

 54 20 pick them up and they'll leave. I don't

 54 21 know. You know, with the -- the baby,

 54 22 they'll go in the backyard and do soccer,

 54 23 you know, in the backyard and things like

 55 1 that. But I don't recall what they do

 55 2 now when they go over with him, so I

 55 3 don't know.

 55 4 Q. Do your children currently live

 55 5 with you or with Mr. Camarillo?

 55 6 A. We share. We both have them,

 55 7 share custody. But when he leaves to --

 55 8 to El Paso, he'll finish school here and

 55 9 then go up there with his dad for the

 55 10 summer.

56:16 - 56:20 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 56 16 Q. Have you ever observed anything

 56 17 where, from your view, Mr. Camarillo's

 56 18 hearing-related injuries affected his

 56 19 child-rearing capabilities?

 56 20 A. I do not recall.

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56:21 - 57:2 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 56 21 Q. Other than hearing loss or

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 56 22 tinnitus, are you aware of any other

 56 23 medical conditions that Mr. Camarillo has

 57 1 been diagnosed with?

 57 2 A. No, ma'am.

(801, 802)

57:6 - 57:8 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 57 6 A. Let me go back on that. Only

 57 7 thing else that I can remember him just

 57 8 saying is PTSD.

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57:11 - 57:15 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 57 11 Have you all ever discussed or

 57 12 have you ever observed any ways in which

 57 13 Mr. Camarillo's hearing loss or tinnitus

 57 14 have impacted his PTSD?

 57 15 A. I wouldn't know.

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58:9 - 58:22 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 58 9 Q. Are you aware of any head

 58 10 injuries or concussions that Mr.

 58 11 Camarillo has suffered?

 58 12 A. I don't know an exact date.

 58 13 Yeah, I remember something. I just don't

 58 14 remember -- recall exactly when. But I

 58 15 know something with a small head injury,

 58 16 but it was nothing serious, I don't

 58 17 think. He never stayed overnight in the

 58 18 hospital for anything, that I can recall.

 58 19 Q. Do you remember what the

 58 20 circumstances were surrounding this small

 58 21 head injury?

 58 22 A. Sorry, I don't remember that.

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61:7 - 61:12 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 61 7 As far as you know, are there

 61 8 any hobbies that Mr. Camarillo can no

 61 9 longer do because of his hearing-related

 61 10 injuries?

 61 11 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 61 12 A. I wouldn't know.

61:13 - 61:16 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 61 13 Q. And you've never observed any

 61 14 instance where he can no longer do any of

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 61 15 his hobbies because of his

 61 16 hearing-related injuries?

61:19 - 61:19 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 61 19 A. Not that I can recall.

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62:14 - 65:3 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 62 14 Q. Do you have any recollection of

 62 15 which firearms he owns?

 62 16 A. No, ma'am.

 62 17 Q. Even if you don't necessarily

 62 18 know the model type, do you know if

 62 19 they're, you know, a machine gun or a

 62 20 revolver or a rifle or anything like

 62 21 that?

 62 22 A. Yeah, I know he has some -- a

 62 23 couple of -- a couple of handguns and a

 63 1 few rifles, but I don't know what type

 63 2 they are.

 63 3 Q. Do you know if Mr. Camarillo

 63 4 ever goes hunting?

 63 5 A. Not that I can recall.

 63 6 Q. Do you have an understanding of

 63 7 what Mr. Camarillo's responsibilities

 63 8 were when he served and while he serves

 63 9 in the military?

 63 10 A. Just that he was a tank

 63 11 mechanic. That's all I would know.

 63 12 Q. Do you know any of the

 63 13 particulars of sort of what his

 63 14 day-to-day life would be as a tank

 63 15 mechanic?

 63 16 A. No, ma'am.

 63 17 Q. Did you all ever talk about any

 63 18 of the noise exposures or anything like

 63 19 that that Mr. Camarillo experienced while

 63 20 in the military?

 63 21 A. No, ma'am.

 63 22 Q. Are you familiar with the

 63 23 hearing protection device called the

 64 1 Combat Arms Earplug Version 2?

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 64 2 A. I didn't know -- I don't know

 64 3 the name of it. Only thing I know, that

 64 4 we packed like earplugs when we would

 64 5 pack his bags. We would do it together.

 64 6 And they always came in a case, so I

 64 7 don't know what was in the case. I just

 64 8 know he would say, "Earplugs, check," you

 64 9 know, check off as we were packing bags.

 64 10 But what they looked like or what they --

 64 11 what the name of them was, I wouldn't

 64 12 know.

 64 13 Q. Okay. So you would -- you

 64 14 always knew Mr. Camarillo would have

 64 15 hearing protection devices, you just

 64 16 don't know which ones because they were

 64 17 in a case. Is that right?

 64 18 A. Correct. He would have some in

 64 19 a case, and some would be in plastic

 64 20 little baggies (indicating). But I don't

 64 21 -- I didn't pay them much attention. I

 64 22 didn't even know what they were, to be

 64 23 honest, because I -- when I used to go

 65 1 shooting, it was always with head -- head

 65 2 muffs on. So I didn't know anything

 65 3 about the little bitty earplugs.

66:1 - 68:6 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 66 1 Q. And so, from the time that you

 66 2 met Mr. Camarillo until present, have you

 66 3 ever seen him using hearing protection

 66 4 devices?

 66 5 A. Not that I can recall.

 66 6 Q. And so, then the same would be

 66 7 true that from the time you met Mr.

 66 8 Camarillo until the present, as far as

 66 9 you can recall, you've never seen him

 66 10 wear the Combat Arms earplug Version 2.

 66 11 Is that correct?

 66 12 A. That's correct. I would -- I

 66 13 wouldn't know. I never went shooting or

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 22

 66 14 anything with him. No.

 66 15 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Camarillo

 66 16 do any yard work?

 66 17 A. No. I know he does it, but I

 66 18 wasn't going to look because he'd want me

 66 19 to help.

 66 20 Q. That's a good strategy. I like

 66 21 that. I'm going to use that forward.

 66 22 Okay. Fair enough.

 66 23 Do you know if he uses any power

 67 1 tools or anything like that when doing

 67 2 yard work?

 67 3 A. Not that I can recall. Just the

 67 4 lawn mower, I guess, pretty much.

 67 5 Q. Do you have any sense of what

 67 6 kind of lawn mower he used?

 67 7 A. I do not recall.

 67 8 Q. Fair enough.

 67 9 And do you know whether or not

 67 10 he would wear hearing protection devices

 67 11 while using the lawn mower?

 67 12 A. I'm not -- I don't recall.

 67 13 Q. Do you know if Mr. Camarillo has

 67 14 ever done any carpentry or woodworking or

 67 15 something like that?

 67 16 A. Not that I know of.

 67 17 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Camarillo

 67 18 ride an ATV or a motorcycle?

 67 19 A. No.

 67 20 Q. Do you know if he has ever

 67 21 ridden an ATV or a motorcycle separate

 67 22 from what you observed?

 67 23 A. I know he has to have done some

 68 1 type of motorcycle class, because I did

 68 2 -- he did show me the endorsement of a

 68 3 motorcycle endorsement on his ID. And

 68 4 that was during Benning, I think, when he

 68 5 was in Benning. But we never owned a

 68 6 motorcycle or ATV.

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 23

67:9 - 67:12 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 67 9 And do you know whether or not

 67 10 he would wear hearing protection devices

 67 11 while using the lawn mower?

 67 12 A. I'm not -- I don't recall.

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70:17 - 71:5 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 70 17 Q. Okay. I understand that Mr.

 70 18 Camarillo has in the past worked on

 70 19 fixing cars. Have you ever observed him

 70 20 doing that?

 70 21 A. Yes. Personal cars, yes. Like

 70 22 he'll change the oil in cars, in my car,

 70 23 and things like that, yes, ma'am.

 71 1 Q. Other than changing the oil, are

 71 2 there any other things that you have seen

 71 3 him do with respect to working on your

 71 4 personal cars?

 71 5 A. Brakes, changing out the brakes.

74:22 - 75:14 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 74 22 Q. Is there ever a time, or was

 74 23 there a time that you would go to bars

 75 1 and restaurants with Mr. Camarillo?

 75 2 A. Restaurants mostly.

 75 3 Q. When was the last time you went

 75 4 to a restaurant with Mr. Camarillo?

 75 5 A. About a year or two ago. It's

 75 6 been a while.

 75 7 Q. Is there a reason you don't go

 75 8 to restaurants anymore?

 75 9 A. Well, we're separated currently.

 75 10 Q. At the time when you and Mr.

 75 11 Camarillo were not separated, was there

 75 12 any other reason why you would not go to

 75 13 restaurants?

 75 14 A. No, no reason.

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75:15 - 76:10 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 75 15 Q. When you were at restaurants

 75 16 with Mr. Camarillo, did you ever observe

 75 17 him having difficulty hearing you or

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Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25) 24

 75 18 others at the restaurant?

 75 19 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 75 20 A. Yes.

 75 21 Q. And can you describe that a

 75 22 little bit for me?

 75 23 A. Just the waitress would ask him

 76 1 more than once, you know, his order when

 76 2 he was ready to order. Or if we were

 76 3 having a conversation, I had to repeat

 76 4 myself as well.

 76 5 Q. Is that something that would

 76 6 happen at all restaurants or -- or

 76 7 something like restaurants that were

 76 8 particularly noisy?

 76 9 A. No. That's just in general.

 76 10 That's majority of the time.

76:11 - 76:16 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 76 11 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Camarillo

 76 12 listen to music with headphones or

 76 13 earbuds?

 76 14 A. I've seen him with headphones,

 76 15 normally, if he -- if he -- if he's on a

 76 16 treadmill.

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77:20 - 78:20 Camarillo, Ruby (2021-01-25)

 77 20 Q. (By Ms. Ozurovich) Ms.

 77 21 Camarillo, during our last session, you

 77 22 mentioned that you and Mr. Camarillo are

 77 23 separated. And can you explain to me why

 78 1 it is that you are separated.

 78 2 A. Infidelity.

 78 3 Q. Does your separation have

 78 4 anything to do with Mr. Camarillo's

 78 5 hearing loss or tinnitus?

 78 6 A. Just the communication part was

 78 7 a big part of the arguing back and forth,

 78 8 kind of like pushed me away a little bit.

 78 9 Q. But is it fair to say that that

 78 10 was not the ultimate issue that led to

 78 11 the separation?

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 78 12 A. I'd say that was the biggest

 78 13 part that led me somewhere else, me not

 78 14 understanding the -- I guess the overall

 78 15 seriousness of the hearing loss.

 78 16 Q. And -- and other than the

 78 17 communication, is there any other reasons

 78 18 that sort of, as you describe, pushed you

 78 19 away?

 78 20 A. No, ma'am.

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

Colors

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Defense Objections

Defense Counters

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 2

Designation Preserved Objections Previous 

Rulings

New Objections Rulings

10:24 - 11:1 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 10 24 Can you please state your full

 10 25 name for the Record?

 11 1 A. Aaron Wade Campanella.

13:13 - 13:16 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 13 13 Q. Sergeant Major, where are you

 13 14 currently located?

 13 15 A. I am located in my office on Fort

 13 16 Irwin, California.

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13:20 - 13:25 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 13 20 Q. Sergeant Major, how long have you

 13 21 been with the U.S. military?

 13 22 A. Since August 4th of 1998.

 13 23 Q. And has that been for your

 13 24 basically entire professional career?

 13 25 A. Yes, ma'am.

15:1 - 15:9 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 15 1 Q. All right. Sergeant Major, can

 15 2 you please walk me through, just give me some

 15 3 background of your service in the Army?

 15 4 A. Sure. I joined in August of 1998

 15 5 as a light-wheeled vehicle mechanic, and I have

 15 6 served since in multiple locations.

 15 7 How in depth would you like me to

 15 8 go? Do you need to know like where I've been

 15 9 stationed and --

15:10 - 16:6 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 15 10 Q. Sure. If you just wouldn't mind

 15 11 giving me sort of a summary of -- that's

 15 12 exactly right, where you've been stationed and

 15 13 what your roles at those stations were, I think

 15 14 that would be great.

 15 15 A. Okay. I went to basic training

 15 16 in Oklahoma; I went to Advanced Individual

 15 17 Training in Fort Jackson, South Carolina; my

 15 18 first duty station was in Fort Hood, Texas.

 15 19 After a couple of years, I did a year in -- in

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 3

 15 20 Korea; after Korea I went to Fort Carson --

 15 21 Fort Drum, New York, was there for two years;

 15 22 then I went to Fort Carson, Colorado; Edgewood

 15 23 Proving Grounds, Maryland; back to Fort Hood;

 15 24 and then went to Fort Bliss to Sergeant Major

 15 25 Academy; and I'm now stationed at Fort Irwin.

 16 1 Mixed in there are five

 16 2 deployments totaling fifty-seven months in

 16 3 Afghanistan and Iraq and Kuwait.

 16 4 Q. That sounds like quite the

 16 5 storied career, to say the least.

 16 6 A. Thank you.

17:14 - 17:25 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 17 14 Q. Are you familiar with someone

 17 15 named Guillermo Camarillorazo?

 17 16 A. Yes, ma'am.

 17 17 Q. When did you first meet Mr.

 17 18 Camarillorazo?

 17 19 A. I believe he was in the unit when

 17 20 I became the first sergeant in April of 2012.

 17 21 Q. What unit was it that Mr.

 17 22 Camarillorazo was in?

 17 23 A. It was the Echo Forward Support

 17 24 Company in 27 Cav, in the First Cavalry

 17 25 Division at Fort Hood.

18:1 - 18:10 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 18 1 Q. Okay. So the first time you met

 18 2 Mr. Camarillorazo was in April of 2012, and you

 18 3 were both stationed at Fort Hood; is that

 18 4 correct?

 18 5 A. I believe so, yes, ma'am.

 18 6 Q. Do you recall how long you served

 18 7 with Mr. Camarillorazo?

 18 8 A. I cannot recall if he left the

 18 9 unit before or after me, but I left the unit in

 18 10 late October of 2014.

18:11 - 19:8 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 18 11 Q. Are you still in contact with Mr.

 18 12 Camarillorazo today?

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 18 13 A. No, ma'am.

 18 14 Q. Do you recall when the last time

 18 15 you saw or spoke to Mr. Camarillorazo?

 18 16 A. I do not. I have not seen him

 18 17 since I left that unit and do not recall when

 18 18 the last time I talked to him. But it's been

 18 19 many years.

 18 20 Q. So what I want to do is sort of

 18 21 walk through each station or location at which

 18 22 you served with Mr. Camarillorazo.

 18 23 A. Okay.

 18 24 Q. So starting with -- Sorry.

 18 25 Starting with Fort Hood in April

 19 1 of 2012, can you describe for me sort of what

 19 2 your professional relationship with Mr.

 19 3 Camarillo was at that time?

 19 4 A. Okay. I was the first sergeant

 19 5 of the company; also, I was the senior enlisted

 19 6 member of a 215-man forward support company.

 19 7 Camarillo was a -- a maintenance manager that

 19 8 worked in our motor pool.

19:10 - 20:12 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 19 10 How much time would you spend

 19 11 with Mr. Camarillorazo during that time period

 19 12 when you were at Fort Hood?

 19 13 A. As little as possible, ma'am. It

 19 14 -- I saw him weekly; if there were soldier

 19 15 issues, we communicated.

 19 16 Q. Why do you say as little as

 19 17 possible?

 19 18 A. Because typically if -- if a

 19 19 staff sergeant, and then I think he became a

 19 20 sergeant first class, is coming to see the

 19 21 first sergeant, they messed -- somebody messed

 19 22 up.

 19 23 Q. I -- I see where you're coming

 19 24 from now.

 19 25 A. Yes, ma'am.

 20 1 Q. Recognizing that you did not want

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 5

 20 2 to see Mr. Camarillo that often, do you have a

 20 3 recollection of how many times, while you were

 20 4 at Fort Hood, you know, you would see him on a

 20 5 weekly basis?

 20 6 A. I couldn't tell you how many

 20 7 times that I saw -- I mean, I saw him at least

 20 8 once a week, either visiting the motor pool,

 20 9 discussing the soldier issue, or in some sort

 20 10 of meeting or something. I think it is a fair

 20 11 assessment to say I saw him at least once a

 20 12 week.

20:25 - 21:6 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 20 25 Q. Do you have any sense of what Mr.

 21 1 Camarillorazo's day-to-day responsibilities

 21 2 were during this time at Fort Hood in 2012?

 21 3 A. Yes, ma'am. To supervise

 21 4 maintenance operations and to provide

 21 5 leadership to the soldiers he was responsible

 21 6 for.

21:17 - 22:12 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 21 17 Q. Do you recall the models of any

 21 18 of the support vehicles and tracked vehicles

 21 19 for which he would have supervised or worked

 21 20 on?

 21 21 A. M1 Abrams, Bradley Fighting

 21 22 Vehicles, M113 Armored Personnel Carriers, High

 21 23 Mobility Medium-wheeled Vehicles, Medium

 21 24 Tactical Vehicles, Light Medium Tactical

 21 25 Vehicles, HEMTTs.

 22 1 That's about the makeup of the

 22 2 fleet, some variant of those platforms.

 22 3 Q. And so you mentioned that Mr.

 22 4 Camarillorazo's role at the time was to

 22 5 supervise maintenance operations. Do you have

 22 6 any sense of sort of what that would entail?

 22 7 A. Yeah. Performing scheduled

 22 8 services on vehicles in accordance with the --

 22 9 with, you know, whatever the maintenance

 22 10 interval was for that piece of equipment;

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 6

 22 11 performing nonscheduled maintenance, you know,

 22 12 as -- as vehicles broke.

22:13 - 23:2 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 22 13 Q. And would this maintenance occur

 22 14 at the motor pool, as far as you know?

 22 15 A. Yes, ma'am. Either in the motor

 22 16 pool or out in the field. We also -- You know,

 22 17 we deployed while we were there, so he also

 22 18 worked on the MRAP family of vehicles

 22 19 downrange, and he also did maintenance

 22 20 operations there in Afghanistan.

 22 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to

 22 22 whether these vehicles would be on while Mr.

 22 23 Camarillorazo was performing maintenance on

 22 24 them?

 22 25 A. Depends on what -- what he was

 23 1 fixing at the time, whether the vehicle needed

 23 2 to be running or not.

23:13 - 25:19 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 23 13 Q. Other than Mr. Camarillorazo's

 23 14 work on the maintenance vehicles, are you aware

 23 15 of any instances where, during this time

 23 16 period, he would go through any weapons or

 23 17 firearms training?

 23 18 A. Yes, ma'am. We're required to

 23 19 shoot semi-annually, to shoot our assigned

 23 20 weapon, which would have been an M4A1 rifle,

 23 21 and then we had cruiser weapons that we also

 23 22 shot periodically.

 23 23 Q. Were you ever with Mr.

 23 24 Camarillorazo when he would be firing any of

 23 25 these weapons?

 24 1 A. I -- I don't know, ma'am. It's

 24 2 more likely than not that I was on a range that

 24 3 he was firing at.

 24 4 Q. Is this an indoor or outdoor

 24 5 range?

 24 6 A. Outdoor.

 24 7 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

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 24 8 (Off-the-Record discussion

 24 9 was held.)

 24 10 Q. When you went to this firing

 24 11 range, do you have an estimation of the number

 24 12 of folks who would be firing weapons at the

 24 13 same time?

 24 14 A. It just depended on -- There's a

 24 15 lot of ranges on Fort Hood, so it just depended

 24 16 on which range we were using or what type of

 24 17 weapon system we would be firing on that range.

 24 18 Q. So as far as you know, did

 24 19 different weapon systems have different ranges

 24 20 associated with them?

 24 21 A. Yes. They typically -- They

 24 22 typically do, yes, ma'am.

 24 23 Q. So for the M4A1 rifle that you

 24 24 and I think you said Mr. Camarillorazo would

 24 25 have fired, how many folks could be firing a

 25 1 weapon at the range at a time?

 25 2 A. Well, maybe up to a dozen on a

 25 3 typical range.

 25 4 Q. Other than the M4A1 rifle, was

 25 5 there any quantification or weapons training

 25 6 going on during this time period, for your

 25 7 unit?

 25 8 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 25 9 A. There was always weapons training

 25 10 and qualification going on in our unit. Not

 25 11 always, not every day. But frequent weapon

 25 12 training and qualification.

 25 13 Q. So can you explain that a little

 25 14 bit more to me?

 25 15 A. Yes, ma'am. We -- You know,

 25 16 we're required to -- to keep qualified

 25 17 operators for every weapon system that we owned

 25 18 as a company. So in order to do that, you have

 25 19 to have some sort of range going on frequently.

25:20 - 26:1 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 25 20 Q. You said that you were required

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 25 21 to keep qualified operators for every weapon

 25 22 system. Would that include folks like Mr.

 25 23 Camarillorazo, who was at the time, you know,

 25 24 responsible for supervising maintenance

 25 25 operations?

 26 1 A. Yes, ma'am.

26:2 - 26:11 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 26 2 Q. And do you recall what someone

 26 3 like Mr. Camarillorazo would have been required

 26 4 to be qualified on at that time?

 26 5 MS. HUNT: Objection. Sorry. Go

 26 6 ahead.

 26 7 A. Oh, just his individual weapon;

 26 8 and then if he was a truck commander, for a

 26 9 piece of equipment that had a twofold weapon

 26 10 assigned to it, then he would have been

 26 11 responsible to qualify on that.

27:7 - 27:16 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 27 7 My question is, you know, despite

 27 8 the fact that you were only required to qualify

 27 9 semi-annually, in your experience, were folks

 27 10 in your unit, like Mr. Camarillorazo, staying

 27 11 up-to-date on their qualifications more than

 27 12 semi-annually while at Fort Hood?

 27 13 A. I'm -- I'm sure that I had people

 27 14 fire more frequently than semi-annual --

 27 15 semi-annually; however, at a minimum, everyone

 27 16 shot semi-annually.

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 27 17 Q. What does the M4 qualification

 27 18 process entail?

 27 19 A. It entails PMI, primary

 27 20 marksmanship instruction; and then at that

 27 21 time, you had to zero your weapon, so there was

 27 22 a table for zeroing your weapon; and then there

 27 23 was a 40-round qualification table; and then a

 27 24 night qualification; and a NBC fire

 27 25 qualification table.

 28 1 Q. So approximately how many rounds

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 28 2 would need to be fired to complete the entire

 28 3 qualification process?

 28 4 A. It depends on how quickly someone

 28 5 could zero their weapon. But, roughly, sixty

 28 6 rounds -- I am not a master gunner, so I -- I

 28 7 am not a subject matter expert in how many

 28 8 rounds are fired in every qualification table.

 28 9 Q. Fair enough. So I guess my

 28 10 question is, sitting here today, can you recall

 28 11 any instance during your time at Fort Hood with

 28 12 Mr. Camarillorazo in which you observed him

 28 13 shooting a firearm?

 28 14 A. I cannot recall, no, ma'am.

28:17 - 28:22 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 28 17 As far as you can recall

 28 18 currently, do you have any sense of what

 28 19 hearing protection devices Mr. Camarillorazo

 28 20 wore while at Fort Hood during this time?

 28 21 A. Whatever he was issued. I don't

 28 22 -- I don't -- No, ma'am.

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 29 8 Q. I guess a more precise question

 29 9 would be did you and Mr. Camarillorazo deploy

 29 10 to Afghanistan together at some point?

 29 11 A. Yes, we did. From November of

 29 12 2012 through July of '13.

29:13 - 29:18 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 29 13 Q. How many folks from your unit

 29 14 were deployed to Afghanistan during that time

 29 15 period?

 29 16 A. I don't recall.

 29 17 Q. Do you have a rough estimate?

 29 18 A. About maybe a hundred.

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 29 19 Q. Do you recall what Mr.

 29 20 Camarillorazo's role was at that time when you

 29 21 were in Afghanistan together?

 29 22 A. He was a maintenance supervisor

 29 23 for I believe FOB Tagab.

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 29 24 COURT REPORTER: Can you repeat

 29 25 that last little part?

 30 1 THE WITNESS: FOB, forward

 30 2 operating base, Tagab.

 30 3 Q. Is that where you-all were

 30 4 stationed at the time?

 30 5 A. So I had personnel on three

 30 6 forward operating bases in Afghanistan.

 30 7 Q. Where were you stationed?

 30 8 A. I was stationed in Bagram

 30 9 Airfield.

 30 10 Q. And is that a different location

 30 11 than FOB Tagab?

 30 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 30 13 Q. How far away?

 30 14 A. I don't recall, ma'am.

 30 15 Q. If Mr. Camarillorazo described

 30 16 one of his locations while in Afghanistan as

 30 17 being twenty feet or so from Bagram Airfield,

 30 18 is that the same location that you would have

 30 19 been stationed at?

 30 20 A. Yes. I was -- So -- So we -- We

 30 21 all deployed to Bagram Airfield; and then I had

 30 22 to disperse two support teams to two other

 30 23 forward operated bases, one of which was Tagab.

 30 24 So he would have came to Bagram Airfield, and

 30 25 then he would have went to FOB Tagab; and then

 31 1 he would have came back to Bagram Airfield in

 31 2 order to leave country.

 31 3 Q. Do you have a sense of how long

 31 4 Mr. Camarillorazo would have been at the Bagram

 31 5 Airfield base before deploying to FOB Tagab?

 31 6 A. I don't recall. Yeah. I don't

 31 7 recall how long before we split up.

31:10 - 31:16 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 31 10 Can you describe for me at a high

 31 11 level, sort of, the layout at the base near

 31 12 Bagram Airfield?

 31 13 A. Yeah. We -- So when we got

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 31 14 there, there was nowhere for our unit to go, so

 31 15 we stood up a small encampment in very, very

 31 16 close proximity to the flight line.

31:17 - 31:25 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 31 17 Q. Can you describe for me what the

 31 18 encampment was like?

 31 19 A. Tents and -- Like eight-man tents

 31 20 and bunk beds.

 31 21 Q. When you said that the encampment

 31 22 was set up in very close proximity to the

 31 23 flight line, can you give me a ballpark

 31 24 estimate of how close?

 31 25 A. No. Close. A ball field or two.

32:1 - 32:3 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 32 1 Q. How would you describe the noise

 32 2 levels while stationed near the Bagram

 32 3 Airfield?

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 32 6 A. Very noisy when fighter jets were

 32 7 taking off in the middle of the night.

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 32 8 Q. How often would you say, while

 32 9 you were stationed there, that fighter jets

 32 10 would take off daily?

 32 11 A. Yeah. I'm not sure.

 32 12 Q. Would it have been more than five

 32 13 per day?

 32 14 A. Probably.

 32 15 Q. Do you think it would have been

 32 16 more than ten per day?

 32 17 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 32 18 A. Yeah. I don't know.

 32 19 Q. Okay. But at least, at a

 32 20 minimum, probably close to five per day were

 32 21 taking off at the Bagram Airfield, as far as

 32 22 you remember?

 32 23 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 32 24 A. Yeah, I don't -- I don't -- I

 32 25 don't pretend to know what the flight schedule

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 33 1 at this place was. That's been a long time, so

 33 2 I don't know.

 33 3 Q. Fair enough.

 33 4 Do you recall what jets would

 33 5 have been taking off during this time period?

 33 6 A. I'm also -- I'm not an aviation

 33 7 guy, so I'm not a subject matter expert. But I

 33 8 believe that they were F-16s, F-15s.

33:15 - 33:19 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 33 15 Q. Compared to your various stations

 33 16 over the course of your military career, how

 33 17 would you describe the noise levels at the --

 33 18 this encampment versus the various other

 33 19 stations that you've lived at?

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 33 22 A. It was much louder there than

 33 23 places I have been before.

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 33 24 Q. Do you recall ever receiving any

 33 25 complaints from anyone in your unit about the

 34 1 noise levels at this station?

 34 2 A. I don't recall any specific

 34 3 complaints. I think we collectively complained

 34 4 that it was loud there.

 34 5 Q. Do you know if while you and Mr.

 34 6 Camarillorazo were there, if there were any

 34 7 noise measurements taken at the base?

 34 8 A. Yeah. I -- I believe there was a

 34 9 noise survey performed.

 34 10 Q. And do you recall any of the

 34 11 details about the noise survey?

 34 12 A. I do not. I just recall ensuring

 34 13 that every soldier got a copy of it, you know,

 34 14 in case there was some kind of disability

 34 15 claim. But I cannot find my own, so . . .

 34 16 Q. So at one time you had this noise

 34 17 survey in your possession, but currently you're

 34 18 not sure if you still have it?

 34 19 A. I don't -- I don't -- I couldn't

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 34 20 find it.

 34 21 Q. Do you recall if anyone came to

 34 22 explain to you or anyone in your unit the

 34 23 results of the noise survey?

 34 24 A. No. I cannot recall.

 34 25 Q. Do you recall if you gave anyone

 35 1 in your unit any advice on how to deal with the

 35 2 noise levels while stationed near the Bagram

 35 3 Airfield?

 35 4 A. Wear your earplugs.

 35 5 To be clear, if I may, it was not

 35 6 noisy all the time. It wasn't like we were --

 35 7 we were living in an extremely noisy

 35 8 environment all the time. It was only loud

 35 9 when, you know, a jet took off.

 35 10 Q. Would you say that it was

 35 11 unpredictable when there would be these noise

 35 12 levels from the jet, or did you have a sense of

 35 13 when these experiences with loud noises would

 35 14 happen?

 35 15 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 35 16 A. It was unpredictable.

35:17 - 35:21 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 35 17 Q. So in your experience, were there

 35 18 situations in which you were unable to get your

 35 19 hearing protection in in time when one of these

 35 20 planes were taking off?

 35 21 A. Yes, there were.

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 36 7 So you said that, you know, I

 36 8 think, because of the unpredictability, there

 36 9 were instances in which maybe you were not able

 36 10 to get your hearing protection in before the

 36 11 noise exposure; is that a fair assessment?

 36 12 A. Yes.

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 36 15 Based on whether it was

 36 16 conversations with folks in your unit or what

 36 17 you recall based on your interactions with

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 36 18 folks in the unit, were there instances in

 36 19 which they had also reported they could not get

 36 20 their hearing protection in in time during

 36 21 these noise exposures?

 36 22 MS. HUNT: Same objection.

 36 23 A. Yeah. I can't recall any -- any

 36 24 conversations. I do know that we, you know,

 36 25 required everyone to have their earplugs with

 37 1 them to ensure that, you know, they were

 37 2 accessible.

 37 3 Q. As part of your role at the

 37 4 Bagram Airfield, was it your responsibility to

 37 5 monitor whether folks had access to hearing

 37 6 protection for these circumstances?

 37 7 A. Yes.

37:11 - 38:9 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 37 11 Did you issue any particular

 37 12 hearing protection device to your unit during

 37 13 this time period to counteract the noise

 37 14 exposures from the airfield?

 37 15 A. No, ma'am. Each soldier is

 37 16 issued their -- is fitted and issued hearing

 37 17 protection from the audiology clinic at the

 37 18 hospital in conjunction with an annual hearing

 37 19 exam. So everyone gets issued their hearing

 37 20 protection.

 37 21 For our maintainers, we had

 37 22 over-the-ear hearing protection for when they

 37 23 were doing, you know, extremely loud

 37 24 maintenance operations. But, no, I, as the

 37 25 first sergeant, did not issue hearing

 38 1 protection.

 38 2 Q. When you say "for our maintainers

 38 3 you had over-the-ear hearing protection," was

 38 4 Mr. Camarillorazo one of the maintainers that

 38 5 you're referring to?

 38 6 A. Yes. To be clear, the hearing

 38 7 protection is not issued to the individual,

 38 8 it's accounted for as part of the sets, kits,

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 38 9 just -- and outfits, like with the tools.

38:16 - 38:21 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 38 16 A. I will say though -- that better.

 38 17 I'm sorry. I'm kind of tired on my end.

 38 18 The over-the-ear hearing

 38 19 protection is maintained with the -- with the

 38 20 tool so that they can be issued to soldiers as

 38 21 they are required.

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 38 22 Q. During the time in which you were

 38 23 at the airfield base, do you recall what

 38 24 hearing protection devices anyone in your unit

 38 25 was using?

 39 1 A. Their issued earplugs.

39:2 - 39:14 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 39 2 Q. Other than knowing, generally,

 39 3 that they were issued earplugs, can you recall

 39 4 any particular types of earplugs that folks

 39 5 within the unit were using at the time?

 39 6 A. No, ma'am. I've been -- I've

 39 7 been issued a set of hearing protection every

 39 8 year for twenty-two years, and they're always,

 39 9 you know -- I probably have ten different

 39 10 variants.

 39 11 So I do not recall, you know,

 39 12 what we were issued. It also, you know,

 39 13 depended on ear size and availability at the

 39 14 clinic as well.

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39:15 - 40:9 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 39 15 Q. Did anyone within your unit,

 39 16 while stationed near the airfield, ever

 39 17 complain to you about issues with hearing due

 39 18 to the noise levels at the airfield?

 39 19 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 39 20 A. Not that I recall.

 39 21 Q. Did you ever have an audiologist

 39 22 come to the airfield site to measure any of the

 39 23 folks' in your unit's hearing or any changes in

 39 24 the hearing while you were there?

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 39 25 A. No, ma'am. That was done upon

 40 1 redeployment.

 40 2 Q. What do you mean by that?

 40 3 A. So we're required to take a

 40 4 annual hearing exam. So they ensure prior to

 40 5 us going that we do it, so that it doesn't

 40 6 become overdue while -- while we are deployed.

 40 7 And then you typically are due one when you

 40 8 return from deployment, so it happens as a part

 40 9 of your redeployment processing.

40:15 - 40:18 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 40 15 Q. During this time period, do you

 40 16 recall ever observing Mr. Camarillorazo wearing

 40 17 any particular hearing protection device?

 40 18 A. No, ma'am.

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 40 19 Q. I think I asked this more

 40 20 generally, but specific to Mr. Camarillorazo,

 40 21 do you recall any complaint that he made to you

 40 22 about the noise levels at the airfield?

 40 23 A. I do not, no, ma'am.

41:1 - 41:23 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 41 1 Do you have any reason to

 41 2 disagree with his testimony that he would have

 41 3 mentioned this to you during the time at the

 41 4 Bagram Airfield?

 41 5 A. No, I don't.

 41 6 Q. Now, separate from the Bagram

 41 7 Airfield, you said that you dispersed, sort of,

 41 8 your unit across thirty different FOBs at this

 41 9 time?

 41 10 A. No. Three, ma'am.

 41 11 Q. Oh. Oh, gosh. That's quite

 41 12 different. Thank you for clarifying.

 41 13 I was about to say you sounded

 41 14 very busy if you had to visit all thirty of

 41 15 them.

 41 16 A. No. Just the three.

 41 17 Q. So how often, then, did you go to

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 41 18 visit each of these three bases?

 41 19 A. Biweekly, or as needed if there

 41 20 were issues.

 41 21 Q. But on average, you would

 41 22 probably go biweekly to each of these bases?

 41 23 A. Yes, ma'am.

42:2 - 43:8 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 42 2 While stationed at the airfield,

 42 3 do you recall any mortar attacks or anything

 42 4 like that from the 2012 to July 2013 time

 42 5 frame?

 42 6 A. At Bagram, I recall -- I do

 42 7 recall rocket attacks, I just don't recall

 42 8 which deployment. They all kind of run

 42 9 together.

 42 10 Q. Do you recall any rocket attacks

 42 11 at any of the -- Strike that.

 42 12 Do you recall any rocket attacks

 42 13 at the operating base in which Mr.

 42 14 Camarillorazo was stationed during the 2012 to

 42 15 2013 deployment?

 42 16 A. Yeah. So just to be clear, I

 42 17 believe that Camarillo was in Tagab, but I'm

 42 18 struggling to -- I don't -- I don't know 100

 42 19 percent. I can't remember where he was, but I

 42 20 believe that it was Tagab.

 42 21 But, yes, there were rocket

 42 22 attacks and mortar attacks at those locations.

 42 23 Q. To the best of your recollection,

 42 24 how often did that occur during the 2012 to

 42 25 2013 deployment?

 43 1 A. Yeah. I don't recall.

 43 2 Q. Would you describe it as

 43 3 something that happened --

 43 4 A. On Bagram --

 43 5 Q. I'm sorry.

 43 6 A. On Bagram, you know, extremely

 43 7 infrequently. And I wasn't permanently at the

 43 8 other FOBs, I can't really tell you.

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43:21 - 44:3 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 43 21 Q. Sergeant Major Campanella, during

 43 22 the time period that you were deployed to

 43 23 Afghanistan with Mr. Camarillorazo,

 43 24 approximately how much time would you spend

 43 25 with him during that time period?

 44 1 A. I -- I don't know, ma'am.

 44 2 Whenever -- You know, I walked around and

 44 3 visited people regularly, so probably daily.

44:4 - 44:11 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 44 4 Q. And do you recall how, if at all,

 44 5 Mr. Camarillorazo's day-to-day tasks changed

 44 6 from the time you were at Fort Hood until you

 44 7 got to Afghanistan?

 44 8 A. How his daily tasks changed?

 44 9 Q. That's right.

 44 10 A. They probably didn't. Just the

 44 11 environment changed.

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 44 12 Q. So as far as you recall, during

 44 13 this time period while in Afghanistan, Mr.

 44 14 Camarillorazo would be working on the same type

 44 15 of tanks, so M1 Abrams, Bradley Fighting

 44 16 Vehicles --

 44 17 A. I got you. I apologize.

 44 18 Q. No problem.

 44 19 A. For the most part, the -- you

 44 20 know, the armored vehicles -- the tanks and

 44 21 Bradleys stayed at Fort Hood, and we moved

 44 22 primarily to a MRAP fleet.

 44 23 Q. So while in Afghanistan, most of

 44 24 the work would have been focused on MRAP

 44 25 vehicles; is that fair?

 45 1 A. That is, yes, ma'am.

 45 2 Q. Just for my own knowledge, is an

 45 3 MRAP a tracked vehicle or a wheeled vehicle?

 45 4 A. A wheeled vehicle.

 45 5 Q. And other than working on tank

 45 6 maintenance, as far as you know, was there any

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 45 7 sort of weapons training going on during the

 45 8 Afghanistan deployment from 2012 to 2013?

 45 9 A. Yes. We -- We shot frequently on

 45 10 FOB Tagab.

 45 11 Q. What do you mean by frequently?

 45 12 A. Whenever there was an opportunity

 45 13 to train, there was a special forces unit

 45 14 there, they would provide us training. There

 45 15 was, you know, a range into one of the mountain

 45 16 fronts. So there was an opportunity to reblue

 45 17 our soldiers on weapons systems there.

 45 18 Q. Do you recall what weapon systems

 45 19 were available for training during that time

 45 20 period?

 45 21 A. Yes. Our individual weapons and

 45 22 our crew-served weapons.

 45 23 Q. And what specific weapon systems

 45 24 were those?

 45 25 A. .50 cal machine gun, M240 Bravo

 46 1 machine gun, and an M249 SAW machine gun, 

mark

 46 2 19 grenade launcher, M203 grenade launchers,

 46 3 and M9 pistols.

46:24 - 47:1 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 46 24 MS. OZUROVICH: No worries. In

 46 25 the meantime, I'll mark it for the Record.

 47 1 Let's call this Camarillorazo Exhibit 28.

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 47 18 Q. So I want to start with -- If you

 47 19 see there, Sergeant Major Campanella, there's a

 47 20 document called Camarillorazo Facebook 0001.

 47 21 Can you see that?

 47 22 A. Yes, ma'am.

 47 23 Q. And if you scroll all the way to

 47 24 the right, there's a date and time column under

 47 25 column H. Do you see that?

 48 1 A. Yes, ma'am.

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48:2 - 48:5 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 48 2 Q. And this is a document that -- or

Case 7:20-cv-00098-MCR-GRJ Document 117 Filed 10/31/21 Page 46 of 151
Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 20

 48 3 message, rather, that is dated May 2, 2013.

 48 4 Do you see that?

 48 5 A. Yes, ma'am.

48:7 - 48:9 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 48 7 As of May 2, 2013, were you and

 48 8 Mr. Camarillorazo stationed in Afghanistan?

 48 9 A. Yes, ma'am.

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48:10 - 49:7 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 48 10 Q. All right. And so I want to

 48 11 direct your attention to the actual text of the

 48 12 message. And I won't read the whole thing, but

 48 13 I want to point your attention to this sentence

 48 14 that reads: We have a checkpoint, called

 48 15 Tagab, and we had a pilot of helicopter got

 48 16 shot on the leg and stopped there to get his

 48 17 leg looked at by the medics like it was

 48 18 nothing. Gunfights happen right at the -- of

 48 19 the gates daily, three to four times.

 48 20 Do you see that sentence?

 48 21 A. Yes, ma'am.

 48 22 Q. And I wanted to ask: Is it

 48 23 consistent with your experience while you were

 48 24 deployed in Afghanistan with Mr. Camarillorazo

 48 25 that gunfights were happening almost daily or,

 49 1 you know, three to four times a day, rather, at

 49 2 the Tagab FOB?

 49 3 A. I was not stationed on Tagab. I

 49 4 do recall there being, you know, a period of

 49 5 time where that area was -- was hot. But I

 49 6 could not attest to whether or not there were

 49 7 three to four gunfights at the gate each day.

49:8 - 49:10 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 49 8 Q. Fair enough. Do you recall

 49 9 getting any reports about, I guess, the station

 49 10 being hot, was the term that you used?

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49:12 - 49:16 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 49 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 49 13 Q. And can you describe for me what

 49 14 that term means?

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 21

 49 15 A. There were Taliban operatives in

 49 16 that area.

49:17 - 50:1 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 49 17 Q. Do you know how close the

 49 18 operatives were with respect to the forward

 49 19 operating base?

 49 20 A. No, ma'am. It's -- They

 49 21 certainly didn't hang out in the open.

 49 22 Q. That's fair enough. Do you have

 49 23 any sense of any of the weaponry that was being

 49 24 used during that time by the Taliban

 49 25 operatives?

 50 1 A. No, ma'am. I assume AK47.

50:2 - 50:5 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 50 2 Q. And then if you turn to the next

 50 3 message, which is the row -- Actually, let's

 50 4 look at the row where it says Camarillorazo

 50 5 Facebook 0003.

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Improper Clarification Counter

SUSTAINED

50:20 - 51:12 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 50 20 Q. Perfect. So, Sergeant Major, do

 50 21 you see the row that is Camarillorazo Facebook

 50 22 0003?

 50 23 A. Yes, ma'am.

 50 24 Q. Do you see in that row under date

 50 25 and time column, the date is January 10, 2013?

 51 1 A. Yes, ma'am. That's -- you --

 51 2 that's number four on mine.

 51 3 Q. Oh, yes. I apologize. It is row

 51 4 four but it is message number Camarillorazo

 51 5 Facebook 3; is that right?

 51 6 A. Oh, my bad. Yes, ma'am.

 51 7 Q. No worries. I just want to make

 51 8 sure we're talking about the same message.

 51 9 So if you look at the actual text

 51 10 of the message, there is a line in there that

 51 11 says: All you see is outgoing tripple 777 all

 51 12 day.

Re: [50:20-51:12]

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51:13 - 52:10 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 51 13 Do you have any understanding

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 22

 51 14 what a 777 is?

 51 15 A. It's an artillery piece.

 51 16 Q. And was that an artillery piece

 51 17 during your time in Afghanistan that your unit

 51 18 was using or that the Taliban operatives were

 51 19 using?

 51 20 A. No. We -- The -- At Tagab, there

 51 21 was a detachment, an artillery detachment, that

 51 22 operated the M777s.

 51 23 Q. And were you ever present at

 51 24 Tagab when the 777s were being fired?

 51 25 A. Yes, ma'am.

 52 1 Q. And do you have any understanding

 52 2 how often these were being fired at Tagab?

 52 3 A. No. I -- Whenever there was a

 52 4 fire mission, ma'am, I don't -- I couldn't

 52 5 attest to how often that was.

 52 6 Q. How would you describe in your

 52 7 experience the noise level of a 777 artillery

 52 8 weapon compared to, you know, the other weapons

 52 9 that you were around during your service?

 52 10 A. Louder.

52:14 - 52:15 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 52 14 Q. Would you say in your experience

 52 15 it was louder than, you know, the typical M4?

Re: [52:14-52:15]

702, 403, Improper 

Clarification Counter

SUSTAINED

52:18 - 52:18 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 52 18 A. Yes.

Re: [52:18-52:18]

702, 403, Improper 

Clarification Counter

SUSTAINED

52:19 - 53:1 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 52 19 Q. Do you know, based on your

 52 20 experience and training, whether single or

 52 21 double hearing protection would have been

 52 22 required when firing a 777?

 52 23 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 52 24 A. No, ma'am. I don't -- I don't

 52 25 understand -- I'm not an expert in artillery

 53 1 operations.

53:5 - 53:8 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 53 5 Q. So if we could go to row 7. It

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 23

 53 6 is Camarillorazo Facebook message number six.

 53 7 Do you see that?

 53 8 A. Yes, ma'am.

53:9 - 53:22 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 53 9 Q. And do you see, if you go all the

 53 10 way over in the date and time column, it is

 53 11 March 18, 2013?

 53 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 53 13 Q. And so that also would have been

 53 14 in the time period which you were stationed

 53 15 with Mr. Camarillorazo; true?

 53 16 A. Correct. Yes, ma'am.

 53 17 Q. And if you look at the message it

 53 18 says: I just posted some pictures of my

 53 19 platoon shooting the Mark 19. We shoot fifteen

 53 20 hundred rounds only ten fires and one AT4.

 53 21 Do you see that?

 53 22 A. Yes, ma'am.

54:1 - 55:13 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 54 1 I believe earlier you said that

 54 2 the Mark 19 was one of the weapon systems that

 54 3 you believed was fired in training at the Tagab

 54 4 Forward Operating Base; is that correct?

 54 5 A. Yes, ma'am.

 54 6 Q. And so in your experience, while

 54 7 at the Tagab Forward Operating Base, was it

 54 8 common that there would be trainings wherein

 54 9 units would be shooting fifteen hundred rounds

 54 10 of the Mark 19?

 54 11 MS. HUNT: Object to form and

 54 12 foundation.

 54 13 A. Yeah. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't

 54 14 begin to, you know, pretend like I knew how

 54 15 many rounds they were shooting during training.

 54 16 Q. Were you ever present when any of

 54 17 the training on the weapon systems was

 54 18 happening while at the Tagab Forward Operating

 54 19 Base?

 54 20 A. Yes, ma'am.

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 24

 54 21 Q. And when you were present during

 54 22 this training, did you have any sense of the

 54 23 number of rounds that would have been fired

 54 24 during that time period or during that

 54 25 particular training?

 55 1 MS. HUNT: Object to form,

 55 2 foundation.

 55 3 A. No, ma'am.

 55 4 Q. Do you recall if multiple people

 55 5 were firing weapons at that time?

 55 6 A. Multiple people were firing but

 55 7 not at the same time.

 55 8 Q. I see. So it was typical

 55 9 practice for there to be multiple, I guess,

 55 10 shooters but not necessarily firing the weapon

 55 11 at the same time?

 55 12 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 55 13 A. Correct.

59:1 - 59:23 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 59 1 Going back to the Bagram

 59 2 Airfield, other than the fighter jets, are

 59 3 there any other, you know, loud noise exposures

 59 4 that you recall occurring at that base while

 59 5 you and Mr. Camarillorazo were stationed there?

 59 6 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 59 7 A. No. Just -- Just typical vehicle

 59 8 maintenance.

 59 9 Q. And would that be the typical

 59 10 vehicle maintenance on the MRAPs or -- or

 59 11 something else?

 59 12 A. Yes, on the MRAPs. And, you

 59 13 know, maybe generator -- typical generator

 59 14 noise, if you were in close proximity.

 59 15 Q. I believe you said earlier that

 59 16 as part of your practice while at the airfield,

 59 17 that you would tell soldiers to wear their

 59 18 hearing protection devices; is that a fair

 59 19 statement?

 59 20 A. When -- If they were doing

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 25

 59 21 something, you know, that required them. But

 59 22 we didn't -- we didn't walk around, you know,

 59 23 twenty-four hours a day wearing them.

60:4 - 62:6 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 60 4 As far as you recall, you don't

 60 5 remember folks walking around with hearing

 60 6 protection in 24/7 while on the airfield base;

 60 7 is that fair?

 60 8 MS. HUNT: Object to form and

 60 9 foundation.

 60 10 A. Yeah. That is -- That is fair.

 60 11 Unless they were doing -- You know, unless they

 60 12 were around loud noise, they didn't have their

 60 13 earplugs in.

 60 14 Q. And so is that something that you

 60 15 would have instructed your unit to do, meaning,

 60 16 unless they were around a loud noise, you don't

 60 17 need to wear your hearing protection around the

 60 18 base?

 60 19 A. No. I don't -- like, it's --

 60 20 It's the soldier's prerogative, if they're

 60 21 wearing hear protection or not, unless they're

 60 22 doing something, you know, around loud noise,

 60 23 and then it's -- it's not an option, it's

 60 24 required.

 60 25 Q. Do you recall ever seeing folks

 61 1 at the Bagram Airfield wearing hearing

 61 2 protection around base when they weren't around

 61 3 loud noises?

 61 4 MS. HUNT: Object to form,

 61 5 foundation.

 61 6 A. No, I don't recall.

 61 7 Q. Other than generally instructing

 61 8 folks to wear their hearing protection, did you

 61 9 give any other advice about when to wear

 61 10 hearing protection as a result of the fighter

 61 11 jets that were constantly taking off near the

 61 12 base?

 61 13 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 26

 61 14 A. No. I just recall that we

 61 15 started keeping our earplugs on our person so

 61 16 we could, you know, put them in when one of the

 61 17 jets was taking off.

 61 18 Q. Did the jets ever take off during

 61 19 the middle of the night?

 61 20 A. Yes.

 61 21 Q. So did you have any advice for

 61 22 any of the soldiers at the airfield base about

 61 23 what to do with hearing protection at night?

 61 24 A. Are you asking me if I told

 61 25 soldiers to wear their earplugs when they were

 62 1 sleeping or --

 62 2 Q. Yeah. I guess, you know, given

 62 3 that -- I believe you said earlier that the

 62 4 flight schedule was a bit unpredictable; is

 62 5 that right?

 62 6 A. Right. Yes.

62:7 - 62:17 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 62 7 Q. So I guess, you know, recognizing

 62 8 the unpredictability of that, you know, and the

 62 9 fact that sometimes the fighter jets could take

 62 10 off in the middle of the night, did you have

 62 11 any instructions or ideas on what to do for

 62 12 soldiers at night?

 62 13 A. No. That's the time I alluded to

 62 14 before when, you know, there may not be time

 62 15 because you're coming out of a dead sleep. So

 62 16 I did not require anyone to wear earplugs

 62 17 asleep. You know, you just did your best.

Re: [62:7-62:17]

Improper Clarification Counter

OVERRULED

64:11 - 65:15 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 64 11 Q. And so after your deployment at

 64 12 Afghanistan and getting back to Fort Hood, is

 64 13 it your understanding that either you or he

 64 14 would have stopped working together

 64 15 approximately in October of 2014; is that

 64 16 right?

 64 17 A. Yes, ma'am.

 64 18 Q. All right. And during the time

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 27

 64 19 period in which you knew Mr. Camarillorazo, do

 64 20 you ever recall him telling you that he had

 64 21 hearing loss?

 64 22 A. I do recall him having hearing

 64 23 issues.

 64 24 Q. When did you first, I guess,

 64 25 recall having him hear -- with hearing issues?

 65 1 A. I would be lying if I told you

 65 2 when. I just can't recall.

 65 3 Q. Do you recall if it was something

 65 4 that happened, you know, before you were

 65 5 deployed to Afghanistan or after you came back?

 65 6 A. I don't, no, ma'am.

 65 7 Q. Do you recall whether or not his

 65 8 hearing issues would have changed at all while

 65 9 you were in Afghanistan together?

 65 10 A. I don't, no, ma'am.

 65 11 Q. What do you recall about Mr.

 65 12 Camarillorazo's hearing loss -- or hearing

 65 13 issues, rather?

 65 14 A. That he was -- That he was a

 65 15 little hard of hearing and he talked loud.

65:16 - 66:7 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 65 16 Q. Fair enough. Do you recall him

 65 17 wearing hearing aids ever during this time

 65 18 period?

 65 19 A. I -- No, I don't. He may have, I

 65 20 don't remember.

 65 21 Q. As far as you recall, did any of

 65 22 Mr. Camarillorazo's hearing troubles affect his

 65 23 ability to perform his duties?

 65 24 A. I don't recall it affecting his

 65 25 duties, no, ma'am.

 66 1 Q. And so other than maybe him

 66 2 speaking a little bit more loudly and that he

 66 3 was a little hard of hearing, is there anything

 66 4 else that you recall about the circumstances of

 66 5 Mr. Camarillorazo's hearing at the time that

 66 6 you served with him?

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 66 7 A. No, ma'am.

66:8 - 68:12 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 66 8 Q. Did Mr. Camarillorazo tell you or

 66 9 did you ever learn that Mr. Camarillorazo had

 66 10 something called tinnitus?

 66 11 A. No. I don't recall him telling

 66 12 me that he had tinnitus. I have it and it's

 66 13 very annoying.

 66 14 Q. I'm sorry?

 66 15 A. I said I have it and it's very

 66 16 annoying.

 66 17 Q. I can imagine.

 66 18 But as far as you know, you don't

 66 19 recall ever observing that or him saying

 66 20 anything about that to you?

 66 21 A. I don't recall, no, ma'am.

 66 22 Q. And as far as you recall, after

 66 23 the deployment in Afghanistan, do you remember

 66 24 any of the soldiers in your unit complaining

 66 25 that their hearing loss had gotten worse as

 67 1 well?

 67 2 A. I do not, no, ma'am.

 67 3 Q. During the time in which you

 67 4 served with Mr. Camarillorazo, do you recall if

 67 5 he suffered any head injuries or concussions?

 67 6 A. I do not, no, ma'am.

 67 7 Q. Do you know if he suffered any

 67 8 traumatic injuries during the time period in

 67 9 which you worked together?

 67 10 A. I do not recall him suffering

 67 11 from a TBI, no, ma'am.

 67 12 Q. Do you recall him ever being

 67 13 subject to a blast or an IED or something like

 67 14 that?

 67 15 A. No, I do not.

 67 16 Q. Was that something, during the

 67 17 time in which you were in Afghanistan, that was

 67 18 common, you know, an IED explosion or a blast

 67 19 explosion?

Re: [66:12-66:17]

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403

Re: [67:3-67:21]

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 29

 67 20 A. No. No. IEDs were not common

 67 21 during that deployment.

 67 22 Q. Were any other form of, I guess,

 67 23 blasts, explosions for lack of a better word,

 67 24 commonplace during the 2012 to 2013 

deployment?

 67 25 A. On Bagram, no, not at all. On --

 68 1 In Tagab, they were more frequent -- more

 68 2 frequent.

 68 3 Q. What types of blasts were more

 68 4 frequent at Tagab?

 68 5 A. Mortars.

 68 6 Q. I think I may have asked you

 68 7 this, but if I did not: Do you have any sense

 68 8 of how often that would have occurred?

 68 9 A. No, ma'am.

 68 10 Q. Do you have any knowledge of

 68 11 whether Mr. Camarillorazo smokes cigarettes?

 68 12 A. I do not recall him smoking.

69:16 - 71:9 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 69 16 Q. During your time in serving with

 69 17 Mr. Camarillorazo, was it commonplace for the

 69 18 Combat Arms Earplug Version 2 to be used in

 69 19 your unit?

 69 20 A. I -- I don't know. I can't -- I

 69 21 get my time -- I don't remember when we were

 69 22 wearing those, so I don't -- I would prefer,

 69 23 you know, not to answer and be wrong.

 69 24 For all I know, we were wearing

 69 25 those in 2010 or -- so -- It was common that we

 70 1 wore them because we were issued them, but I

 70 2 don't remember when that was.

 70 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Because you were

 70 4 in? I'm sorry.

 70 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

 70 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: What did you say

 70 7 -- What was your answer, sir?

 70 8 A. I don't recall when we wore that

 70 9 version of earplugs or when that version was

Case 7:20-cv-00098-MCR-GRJ Document 117 Filed 10/31/21 Page 56 of 151
Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 30

 70 10 issued. So whenever that was, it was common

 70 11 for soldiers to wear them, I just don't recall,

 70 12 you know, what years those were issued.

 70 13 Q. Were you issued the Combat Arms

 70 14 Earplug Version 2?

 70 15 A. At some point, yes, ma'am.

 70 16 Q. And it may have been during the

 70 17 time period in which you served with Mr.

 70 18 Camarillorazo, you're just not sure one way or

 70 19 the other?

 70 20 A. Yes, ma'am.

 70 21 Q. Do you recall any of the

 70 22 circumstances in which you received the Combat

 70 23 Arms Earplug Version 2?

 70 24 A. No, ma'am. Probably at the

 70 25 hearing clinic.

 71 1 Q. Is that where you were typically

 71 2 issued hearing protection devices?

 71 3 A. Yes. Typically.

 71 4 Q. Is that where you would typically

 71 5 go through the fitting of a hearing protection

 71 6 device?

 71 7 A. Yes, ma'am. That's part of our

 71 8 annual hearing exam, the fitting of the

 71 9 earplugs.

71:10 - 71:17 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 71 10 Q. As far as you know, do you recall

 71 11 if you were ever fit with the Combat Arms

 71 12 Earplug Version 2?

 71 13 A. I don't recall being fit, no,

 71 14 ma'am.

 71 15 Q. Do you recall generally the fit

 71 16 process of when you received a hearing

 71 17 protection device?

Re: [71:10-71:17]

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Clarification Counter

SUSTAINED

72:3 - 72:16 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 72 3 So during the time period from

 72 4 2012 to 2014, do you recall what the typical

 72 5 fitting process would have been for you during

 72 6 that time period?

Re: [72:3-72:16]

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OVERRULED

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 31

 72 7 A. You put an earplug in your ear

 72 8 and then an expert looks at it and tells you if

 72 9 you're good to go.

 72 10 Q. When you say an expert, are you

 72 11 referring to somebody at the audiology clinic?

 72 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 72 13 Q. And as far as you know, during

 72 14 the 2012 to 2014 time period, is that something

 72 15 that would -- that happened annually?

 72 16 A. Yes, ma'am.

74:4 - 76:2 Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29)

 74 4 Q. Were you ever, as someone in sort

 74 5 of a supervisory position, aware of Sergeant

 74 6 Camarillo being written up or disciplined for

 74 7 not following safety rules?

 74 8 A. No, ma'am.

 74 9 Q. So in your experience, it's fair

 74 10 to say, as far as you know, he followed all

 74 11 applicable safety rules?

 74 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 74 13 MS. OZUROVICH: Object to the

 74 14 form.

 74 15 Q. And that would include hearing

 74 16 protection and the use of other appropriate

 74 17 PPE?

 74 18 A. Yes, ma'am.

 74 19 MS. OZUROVICH: Object to the

 74 20 form.

 74 21 Q. And during your time at Fort Hood

 74 22 with Sergeant Camarillo, you weren't physically

 74 23 present for most of the work he did; is that

 74 24 fair?

 74 25 A. Yes, ma'am.

 75 1 Q. And so you don't have personal

 75 2 knowledge about his day-to-day noise exposure

 75 3 from actually being there with him; right?

 75 4 MS. OZUROVICH: Object to the

 75 5 form.

 75 6 A. Correct. Yes, that's fair.

Re: [74:4-74:12]

Foundation (602); 611 

(Leadings, Vague)

Re: [74:15-74:18]

602 (Foundation); 611 

(Leading)

Re: [74:21-75:16]

611 (Leading)

Re: [75:17-76:2]

611 (Leading); 802 (Hearsay)

OVERRULED

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Campanella, Aaron (2021-01-29) 32

 75 7 Q. And along those same lines, you

 75 8 don't know with specificity how often Sergeant

 75 9 Camarillo was at the range or how many rounds

 75 10 he fired?

 75 11 A. Correct. Yes, ma'am.

 75 12 Q. And as to your experience in

 75 13 Afghanistan, you're not personally aware of any

 75 14 instances where Sergeant Camarillo was exposed

 75 15 to loud noise without hearing protection?

 75 16 A. I'm not, no, ma'am.

 75 17 Q. And if Sergeant Camarillo

 75 18 testified that while in Afghanistan he slept

 75 19 with his earplugs in to try to protect his ears

 75 20 and try to sleep, you don't have any reason to

 75 21 dispute that?

 75 22 MS. OZUROVICH: Object to the

 75 23 form.

 75 24 A. No, ma'am.

 75 25 Q. Sorry, did you say no? I didn't

 76 1 hear you.

 76 2 A. Correct. I said, no, ma'am.

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Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

Colors

Plaintiff Affirmatives

Defense Objections

Defense Counters

Plaintiff Objections

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Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19) 2

Designation Preserved Objections Previous 

Rulings

New Objections Rulings

10:5 - 10:7 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 10 5 Can you please state your full

 10 6 name for the Record?

 10 7 A. It's Piper Christie Ellen Glick.

10:19 - 10:21 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 10 19 Q. Do you have an independent

 10 20 recollection of Sergeant Camarillorazo?

 10 21 A. No.

14:7 - 14:14 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 14 7 Q. Fair enough. Did you look at

 14 8 Sergeant Camarillorazo's medical file before

 14 9 today?

 14 10 A. The only last one that I saw was

 14 11 when I saw him in January.

 14 12 Q. Okay.

 14 13 A. I was sending him for new hearing

 14 14 aids, so I saw him in January.

15:4 - 15:8 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 15 4 bit. But is it fair to say that your January

 15 5 2021 record is your most recent visit with

 15 6 Sergeant Camarillorazo?

 15 7 A. To my knowledge, yes. That's the

 15 8 last time I saw him.

24:3 - 24:15 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 24 3 Q. And over the course of your

 24 4 career, did you do audiological evaluation

 24 5 testing, like air conduction, bone conduction,

 24 6 things like that?

 24 7 A. All the time. Yeah.

 24 8 Q. Okay. So after you graduated

 24 9 with your doctorate in 2009 or 2010, where did

 24 10 you go next?

 24 11 A. So I was there at St. Peter's

 24 12 University Hospital for another year, and then

 24 13 I came to Fort Hood in 2011. They had tried to

 24 14 recruit me in '09, and I then I ended up going

 24 15 in 2011.

Case 7:20-cv-00098-MCR-GRJ Document 117 Filed 10/31/21 Page 61 of 151
Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19) 3

24:18 - 26:1 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 24 18 What was your title when you

 24 19 first joined Fort Hood in 2011?

 24 20 A. Audiologist.

 24 21 Q. And can you just give me a high

 24 22 level overview of what your day-to-day tasks

 24 23 were at that time?

 24 24 A. Seeing patients daily. I see on

 24 25 an average, seven patients. We do full

 25 1 audiological evaluations, which is the air, the

 25 2 bone, the speech; we also do SPRINT testing,

 25 3 which is a Speech In Noise test that we have to

 25 4 do for people that hit certain profile levels.

 25 5 I also wrote referrals, orders

 25 6 for MRIs, SPRINT test -- Well, I said the

 25 7 SPRINT testing, and then, yeah, that's about

 25 8 it. Just the regular audiological evaluations

 25 9 more than anything. And, of course, profiles,

 25 10 I write profiles for soldiers that meet certain

 25 11 criteria.

 25 12 Q. And is it fair to say that you

 25 13 have served as an audiologist from 2011 to the

 25 14 present at Fort Hood?

 25 15 A. Yes. Correct. Yes.

 25 16 Q. And so how, if at all, has your

 25 17 day-to-day tasks and responsibilities changed

 25 18 from the start of 2011 until now?

 25 19 A. They haven't. It's been

 25 20 consistent.

 25 21 Q. So from starting in 2011, until

 25 22 now, you see approximately seven patients per

 25 23 day for a full audiological evaluation?

 25 24 A. Correct. It's an average.

 25 25 Because one might be a SPRINT test versus five

 26 1 are whatever.

27:6 - 27:10 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 27 6 Fair to say that at the time that

 27 7 you were providing treatment to Sergeant

 27 8 Camarillorazo you were serving as an

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 27 9 audiologist at Fort Hood?

 27 10 A. Yes.

28:18 - 28:23 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 28 18 Q. Dr. Glick, if you wouldn't mind

 28 19 taking a moment and scrolling through and

 28 20 letting me know if you recognize the documents

 28 21 in this Exhibit 30.

 28 22 A. (Witness complies.) Okay. I see

 28 23 my report.

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 31 17 Q. Okay. Well, if you look at this

 31 18 record, it starts on page 21, and if you go

 31 19 through page 22 and 23, can you confirm that

 31 20 this is the full medical record for Sergeant

 31 21 Camarillorazo's visit on August 7, 2013?

 31 22 A. It is.

 31 23 Q. All right. And as far as you're

 31 24 aware, August 7, 2013, is the first time that

 31 25 you evaluated Sergeant Camarillorazo; is that

 32 1 true?

 32 2 A. As far as I'm aware of, yes.

32:6 - 32:11 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 32 6 Q. And on page 21, there's a section

 32 7 that says: Reason for appointment. Do you see

 32 8 that?

 32 9 A. Yes.

 32 10 Q. And then it says: Asymmetric

 32 11 loss. Do you see that?

32:17 - 32:18 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 32 17 A. Oh. Oh. Okay. That's made by

 32 18 the staff, yes.

32:19 - 32:21 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 32 19 Q. So that's not something that you

 32 20 fill in?

 32 21 A. No.

33:3 - 34:6 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 33 3 Q. Okay. So if I understand you

 33 4 correctly, after the audiology exam by the

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 33 5 staff, someone from the staff will fill in the

 33 6 reason for appointment and then refer them to

 33 7 the audiologist?

 33 8 A. Correct. This screening.

 33 9 They're not doing an audiological evaluation

 33 10 with the techs, they're just doing the

 33 11 screening.

 33 12 Q. What do you mean by "just doing

 33 13 the screening"?

 33 14 A. So they have an annual hearing

 33 15 test, where our technicians screen on average

 33 16 eight patients in a booth, and that updates in

 33 17 their med pros, and keeps them green for

 33 18 deployment, for example. So they're -- My

 33 19 techs are screening, as an example, again,

 33 20 eight at a time. And then when the paperwork

 33 21 is done, they go over it with the patients.

 33 22 And if there's a mark on the bottom -- If you

 33 23 guys have a screening? I don't know if you've

 33 24 seen any of these screening tests, I'm sure you

 33 25 have, at the bottom where the screening test

 34 1 is, it will give the reason, like if it's a

 34 2 positive STS, there's an asymmetrical hearing

 34 3 loss, if masking is required, things like that,

 34 4 and they'll put that note in there. And they

 34 5 go up and they make an appointment to see me,

 34 6 or one of the other audiologists on post.

34:16 - 34:20 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 34 16 So on page 21 of Exhibit 30,

 34 17 under reason for appointment, the asymmetric

 34 18 loss was identified by the audiology technician

 34 19 and then referred to you?

 34 20 A. Correct.

34:22 - 35:3 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 34 22 A. And it's actually the machine

 34 23 that actually calculates that. But, yes, the

 34 24 technician is reading it, but it's the machine

 34 25 that will show that.

 35 1 Q. And is that the DOEHRS system?

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 35 2 A. Correct. That's the DOEHRS

 35 3 system.

35:4 - 36:14 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 35 4 Q. Okay. Okay. And so then there's

 35 5 a section that says: Reason for visit.

 35 6 Audiologic evaluation.

 35 7 Do you see that?

 35 8 A. Yeah. That's mine.

 35 9 Q. Okay. And it says: Due to

 35 10 masking required?

 35 11 A. That's right.

 35 12 Q. Can you tell me what that means?

 35 13 A. Okay. So an asymmetrical hearing

 35 14 loss means that there's at least 40 decibels of

 35 15 a difference between two ears. And when that

 35 16 happens -- I think on the DOEHRS test, it's a

 35 17 little bit less; I think you can do it when

 35 18 it's like 20 decibels or something like that,

 35 19 but I'm not 100 percent sure.

 35 20 But when we see a large gap

 35 21 between two ears, we have to mask out the

 35 22 better ear to get the correct result on the

 35 23 poorer ear, for example. So we're putting

 35 24 white noise in, or narrow band noise in, to one

 35 25 ear while doing the beep test in the other ear

 36 1 to get an accurate threshold level.

 36 2 Q. Is that so you can localize,

 36 3 basically, the loss in one ear or the other?

 36 4 A. Well, you want to make sure --

 36 5 here's the -- The head is only so big, is the

 36 6 best way to explain it, so if you have a larger

 36 7 loss in one ear versus the other, and you keep

 36 8 turning that up to get the threshold level,

 36 9 eventually that better ear is going to hear it,

 36 10 so then you're getting a false threshold level.

 36 11 That's why we have to do masking to completely

 36 12 stop that ear from picking it up, and then we

 36 13 get the correct threshold level in the poorer

 36 14 ear.

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39:14 - 39:19 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 39 14 Q. Okay. So under reported, it

 39 15 says: Environmental exposure. High level of

 39 16 environmental noise with small arms, jets,

 39 17 airplanes, and track vehicles.

 39 18 Do you see that?

 39 19 A. Yes. I do.

40:10 - 40:21 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 40 10 Q. When it says: High level of

 40 11 environmental noise, as far as you know, was

 40 12 that you qualifying this as a high level of

 40 13 environmental noise or is that something the

 40 14 patient would have told you?

 40 15 A. When we -- It's something I would

 40 16 qualify as high level, depending on their day.

 40 17 So when I'm doing that questionnaire, if

 40 18 they're around airplanes, they're on the

 40 19 runways, like that type of stuff, then, yeah,

 40 20 it's a high level of noise. They're not

 40 21 sitting in an office, for example.

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 45 17 Q. So then as of August 2013, as far

 45 18 as you know, Sergeant Camarillorazo was

 45 19 reporting to you that he had tinnitus which was

 45 20 intermittent in the left ear; is that true?

 45 21 A. Correct.

48:24 - 49:5 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 48 24 Q. No problem. So under A/P number

 48 25 2 it says: Visit for ear/hearing exam

 49 1 following ABN hearing screening.

 49 2 Do you see that?

 49 3 A. Yes.

 49 4 Q. And what does ABN stand for?

 49 5 A. Abnormal.

49:6 - 49:10 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 49 6 Q. Okay. And then next to it, it

 49 7 says: Encounter for hearing examination

 49 8 following failed hearing screening.

 49 9 Do you see that?

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 49 10 A. Yes.

49:11 - 49:25 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 49 11 Q. Do you have an understanding of

 49 12 what failed hearing screening is?

 49 13 A. Yes.

 49 14 Q. What is your understanding?

 49 15 A. If the patient has an STS, if

 49 16 they have an asymmetrical hearing loss, if

 49 17 masking is required, things like that, or all

 49 18 that.

 49 19 Q. And do you have an understanding

 49 20 in this instance the bases for Sergeant

 49 21 Camarillorazo's failed hearing screening?

 49 22 A. Yes.

 49 23 Q. And what is that?

 49 24 A. Well, he had an asymmetrical

 49 25 hearing loss that required masking.

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 50 15 Q. Okay. So moving further along

 50 16 down the page, on number three, it says:

 50 17 Sensorineural hearing loss bilateral and then a

 50 18 dash, acoustic immittance test times one.

 50 19 Do you see that?

 50 20 A. Yes.

 50 21 Q. What is an acoustic immittance

 50 22 test?

 50 23 A. That's the tympanometry that we

 50 24 do, where we're checking the middle ear system

 50 25 to make sure there's no eustachian tube

 51 1 dysfunction; we also do acoustic reflex

 51 2 testing, which shows us some of the nerve

 51 3 function.

 51 4 Q. So why, in this instance, did you

 51 5 do an acoustic immittance test?

 51 6 A. We'll always do that to make sure

 51 7 there's no eustachian tube dysfunction. You

 51 8 can look into an ear, and it looks nice and

 51 9 clean, you know when it comes to that middle

 51 10 ear system, no bubbles, no bulging, nothing

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 51 11 like that. But there's an epitympanic recess,

 51 12 which is an attic of the middle ear system, so

 51 13 when we do this test, we're making sure that

 51 14 eustachian tube that runs down the throat, that

 51 15 actually connects that middle ear system, is

 51 16 opening and closing correctly. Try to think

 51 17 about when you're flying, how you have to equal

 51 18 that pressure when you're flying, it's that,

 51 19 we're basically testing to make sure there's no

 51 20 fluid.

 51 21 Q. Okay. Then under consult, looks

 51 22 like you ultimately conclude sensorineural

 51 23 hearing loss bilateral; right?

 51 24 Do you see that on page 21, Dr.

 51 25 Glick?

 52 1 A. Yes. Yes. I see it.

 52 2 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say, then,

 52 3 that, you know, before Sergeant Camarillorazo

 52 4 had come to see you, it looked like an

 52 5 asymmetric loss, but after your consult, it

 52 6 looked like a bilateral loss?

 52 7 A. You could still have an

 52 8 asymmetrical hearing loss, but have hearing

 52 9 loss in both ears; it just means one ear is

 52 10 poorer than the other.

53:18 - 53:25 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 53 18 Q. Okay. So it says: Discussed

 53 19 diagnosis with patient who indicated

 53 20 understanding. Comments: Use HPD when

 53 21 conducting noise hazardous operations or when

 53 22 using noise hazardous equipment on and off duty

 53 23 to prevent further loss of hearing.

 53 24 Do you see that?

 53 25 A. Yes.

54:5 - 55:1 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 54 5 -- Actually, before we do that, why is it that

 54 6 you include that comment, at least in this

 54 7 record on August 7, 2013?

 54 8 A. Because we do discuss the results

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 54 9 with the patient, tell them their hearing loss,

 54 10 give them the information to go for his hearing

 54 11 aid consult, and then, of course, to use

 54 12 hearing protection in any noise hazard

 54 13 situation.

 54 14 Q. Did you ever discuss with

 54 15 patients the particular type of hearing

 54 16 protection they should be using?

 54 17 A. No. Usually the patient gets fit

 54 18 by my techs. I'm not part of that.

 54 19 Q. Do you ever discuss with the

 54 20 patient instances in which they should wear

 54 21 hearing protection as opposed to a hearing aid?

 54 22 A. Yes. I -- Well, we always

 54 23 encourage -- Any patient I talk to, I tell them

 54 24 make sure they're wearing their hearing

 54 25 protection, even if they're, you know, home

 55 1 doing something that's noisy or at work.

57:21 - 58:19 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 57 21 Q. Can you just tell me what a

 57 22 pure-tone average is?

 57 23 A. Pure-tone average is averaging

 57 24 out 500, 1000, and 2000 hertz. So it takes the

 57 25 three thresholds together and divides them by

 58 1 three.

 58 2 Q. Why is it that here you're doing

 58 3 a pure-tone average?

 58 4 A. This does come down to profiles,

 58 5 for example. If a soldier has a -- say they

 58 6 have a mild hearing loss or something like

 58 7 that. If their pure-tone average in one ear is

 58 8 over 25 decibels, so if it's like 26 -- or

 58 9 little over, 27 decibels, that would be an H2

 58 10 profile.

 58 11 Q. I see. So the pure-tone average

 58 12 threshold informs the hearing profile?

 58 13 A. It can be one of the factors that

 58 14 informs the hearing profile, correct.

 58 15 Q. And you said that if it's greater

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 58 16 than 27 that --

 58 17 A. Greater than 25, it would be an

 58 18 H2 profile. If it's greater than 30, that's an

 58 19 H3 profile.

59:22 - 60:6 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 59 22 Q. So I guess that's my question, in

 59 23 this circumstance, looking at the August 2013

 59 24 audiogram, his PTA is 17?

 59 25 A. Correct.

 60 1 Q. Okay. And so what does that tell

 60 2 you about Sergeant Camarillorazo's hearing at

 60 3 the time that you were evaluating him?

 60 4 A. It's only showing me the low to

 60 5 mid frequency, it's not showing me the high

 60 6 frequency.

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 60 7 Q. Okay. So other than using the

 60 8 PTA for establishing certain profile criterias,

 60 9 is there anything else that you use the PTA for

 60 10 that can sort of tell you any information about

 60 11 Sergeant Camarillorazo's hearing?

 60 12 A. Well, yes. We use the pure-tone

 60 13 average also when we're doing our speech

 60 14 reception threshold, meaning we do a speech

 60 15 test to make sure the patient is close to their

 60 16 PTA. The only reason that's done is to make

 60 17 sure the patient isn't, you know, malingering

 60 18 on a hearing test, for example. It's usually

 60 19 consistent with the PTA, the speech reception

 60 20 threshold.

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 60 25 Does the pure-tone average

 61 1 evaluate 5, 1000, and 2000 because those are

 61 2 the frequencies used for understanding speech?

 61 3 A. Not all of them, no.

 61 4 Q. Okay. Do you have an

 61 5 understanding, you know, as to why in this

 61 6 evaluation when calculating a PTA you use 500,

 61 7 1000, and 2000?

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 61 8 A. Because it's going to be close to

 61 9 the average of the SRT.

 61 10 Q. And do you have an understanding

 61 11 of why that is?

 61 12 A. More than anything, we want to

 61 13 make sure that the testing is accurate. If I

 61 14 have a soldier come in that's giving me 80

 61 15 decibels of hearing loss across the board, but

 61 16 has SRT of 40, then they're not really giving

 61 17 me everything accurately.

 61 18 Q. Okay. I guess --

 61 19 A. It's basically a double-checking

 61 20 of that test. It's basically confirming those

 61 21 threshold levels.

61:4 - 61:9 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 61 4 Q. Okay. Do you have an

 61 5 understanding, you know, as to why in this

 61 6 evaluation when calculating a PTA you use 500,

 61 7 1000, and 2000?

 61 8 A. Because it's going to be close to

 61 9 the average of the SRT.

62:20 - 62:22 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 62 20 So 5, 1000, and 2000, you would

 62 21 categorize his frequencies as normal?

 62 22 A. Correct.

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 62 23 Q. Okay. And so then you mentioned

 62 24 the speech reception/awareness threshold;

 62 25 correct?

 63 1 A. Correct.

 63 2 Q. And is that -- Earlier you

 63 3 mentioned SPRINT testing, is that the SPRINT

 63 4 testing that you talked about?

 63 5 A. No. SPRINT testing is a separate

 63 6 test we do for people that have an H3 profile,

 63 7 where they have to say words in background

 63 8 noise.

 63 9 Q. Okay.

 63 10 A. It's a standardized test that's

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 63 11 on a CD, for example.

 63 12 Q. Okay. So can you tell me, then,

 63 13 what this speech reception threshold test is?

 63 14 A. Speech reception threshold is

 63 15 we're giving what we call spondee words as low

 63 16 as possible until the patient can't respond

 63 17 anymore correctly. So, you know -- I'm trying

 63 18 to think of an example. Like boathouse, they

 63 19 would repeat that word back, and then you would

 63 20 go down 10 decibels. You're trying to see as

 63 21 low as you can get before they really can't

 63 22 understand the word anymore. That's the lowest

 63 23 threshold.

 63 24 Once we get to the SRT, we will

 63 25 add 40 decibels on top of that and then we will

 64 1 give the speech discrimination test, which is

 64 2 to see how well they understand speech, regular

 64 3 speech, no background noise.

 64 4 Q. Okay. So I just want to make

 64 5 sure I understand. So with the speech

 64 6 reception test, you are presenting, I think you

 64 7 said, spondee words at a particular decibel?

 64 8 A. Yes.

 64 9 Q. And what decibel do you usually

 64 10 start with.

 64 11 A. It depends on the patient. But

 64 12 if I see this, for example, the SR- -- the PTA

 64 13 of 17, I'll probably start at about 60, because

 64 14 you're averaging it out a little bit. And then

 64 15 I'll go down 10 decibels each word that I say

 64 16 that the patient responds correctly to.

 64 17 Q. And just to sort of contextualize

 64 18 what 60 dB means, about what noise level is 60

 64 19 dB?

 64 20 A. I'm not sure how to explain that.

 64 21 It's just a threshold level.

64:23 - 64:24 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 64 23 A. How loud something is, I mean, I

 64 24 guess that's the best way to say it.

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 64 25 Q. Right. And I guess -- You know,

 65 1 in this instance, if you were, you know,

 65 2 evaluating Sergeant Camarillorazo at 60 dB, you

 65 3 know, would that be shouting, would that be

 65 4 normal conversation? I'm just trying to sort

 65 5 of figure out where you start in this test --

 65 6 A. The average -- Yeah. Yeah. The

 65 7 average comfortable, what we call most

 65 8 comfortable listening, is usually about 40

 65 9 decibels for somebody with completely normal

 65 10 hearing. Again, that's just an average; every

 65 11 person is different.

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 67 1 Q. I see. Okay. So with respect to

 67 2 what you did on August 2013, with Sergeant

 67 3 Camarillorazo, for the SRT you were able to

 67 4 ratchet the sound down to 20 dB such that he

 67 5 could repeat those words back to you; is that

 67 6 right?

 67 7 A. Spondee words, yes.

 67 8 Q. Okay. And then after that you

 67 9 would add 40 dB for purposes of the speech

 67 10 discrimination test; is that right?

 67 11 A. Correct.

 67 12 Q. Okay. And then that would mean,

 67 13 then, for purposes of this exam with Sergeant

 67 14 Camarillorazo, the presentation of the words in

 67 15 the word recognition test would have been at 60

 67 16 dB; is that right?

 67 17 A. Correct.

 67 18 Q. And it says 100 percent in right

 67 19 and the left for his word recognition test.

 67 20 What does that mean?

 67 21 A. That means he scored 100 percent

 67 22 on the words that were given to him at 60

 67 23 decibels.

 67 24 Q. And does that mean he could

 67 25 repeat back 100 percent of the words?

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 68 1 A. Correct.

68:13 - 68:24 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 68 13 Looking at the PTA, SRT, and the

 68 14 word recognition, what, if anything, does that

 68 15 tell you about Sergeant Camarillorazo's hearing

 68 16 at the time of your appointment with him?

 68 17 A. With his hearing loss, if we

 68 18 increased the decibel level to make him more

 68 19 comfortable, he could understand speech better.

 68 20 Q. Okay. And what do you mean by

 68 21 that?

 68 22 A. Meaning that he's not hearing at

 68 23 a normal level and we need to fit him with

 68 24 hearing aids to make him more comfortable.

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 69 4 Q. Okay. And so you note on page 23

 69 5 word recognition score right ear was excellent

 69 6 at 100 percent.

 69 7 Do you see that?

 69 8 A. Correct. Yes.

69:9 - 69:15 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 69 9 Q. So understanding we talked a

 69 10 little bit about the 100 percent, but do you

 69 11 have any understanding as to why you used the

 69 12 word excellent in this record?

 69 13 A. We actually do 90 to 100 percent

 69 14 is excellent; 80 to 88 percent would be good;

 69 15 fair is in 70s; and then poor is 60s and below.

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 69 16 Q. And so here, with Sergeant

 69 17 Camarillorazo, you gave him a score of

 69 18 excellent. And does that mean with the 100

 69 19 percent that he was able to repeat back all of

 69 20 the words that he was given?

 69 21 A. Yes.

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 70 15 Q. And then you have acoustic reflex

 70 16 decay could not be tested due to threshold

 70 17 levels bilaterally.

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 70 18 A. Correct.

 70 19 Q. Can you tell me what that means?

 70 20 A. Acoustic reflex decay is a test

 70 21 that we do just to make sure that we're not

 70 22 looking at a retropropara pathology, meaning a

 70 23 brain tumor. When we have a response that's

 70 24 not normal for an acoustic reflex decay and

 70 25 then we have an asymmetrical hearing loss,

 71 1 we'll actually send that patient for an MRI of

 71 2 his internal auditory canals.

 71 3 His threshold levels were too

 71 4 high for me to actually do that test because it

 71 5 has to be 10 decibels above that acoustic

 71 6 reflex threshold.

71:7 - 71:10 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 71 7 Q. Okay. So in this instance you

 71 8 weren't able to do the acoustic reflex decay to

 71 9 evaluate any retrocochlear pathologies?

 71 10 A. Correct.

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 71 11 Q. Then you write that a few

 71 12 sentences down: SM meets H2 profile standards

 71 13 and a profile has been written.

 71 14 Do you see that?

 71 15 A. Yes.

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 71 18 Does this mean that Sergeant

 71 19 Camarillorazo, as of this August 2013

 71 20 appointment, now has an H2 profile?

 71 21 A. Correct.

 71 22 Q. And so prior to that, he would

 71 23 have been H1?

 71 24 A. Correct.

 71 25 Q. Okay. Why is it you wrote an H2

 72 1 profile based on this audiological evaluation?

 72 2 A. You'd have to go back to page 22.

 72 3 So in his left ear, at 4000 hertz, when it's

 72 4 above 50 decibels, in at least one ear, that's

 72 5 an H2 profile.

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72:6 - 72:9 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 72 6 Q. Okay. So it was based on his air

 72 7 conduction test as opposed to the PTA that we

 72 8 were talking about earlier?

 72 9 A. Correct.

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72:22 - 72:25 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 72 22 Do you see here that on page 18,

 72 23 this is an appointment with Sergeant

 72 24 Camarillorazo on March 18, 2019?

 72 25 A. Yes.

73:11 - 73:20 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 73 11 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to

 73 12 whether Sergeant Camarillorazo saw any

 73 13 audiologists from the time of your August 2013

 73 14 appointment to the time of your March 2019

 73 15 appointment?

 73 16 A. The only way I'm aware of it is

 73 17 because I have it in my notes that his last --

 73 18 Well, his last pair were in 2017, so I would

 73 19 assume that he had been seen, but I'm not aware

 73 20 of who he saw or where.

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73:22 - 73:24 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 73 22 then it says: Reason for appointment, H3 eval.

 73 23 Do you see that?

 73 24 A. Yes.

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74:4 - 74:7 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 74 4 Q. Okay. And so the purpose of this

 74 5 visit, then, would be to evaluate if he does

 74 6 meet an H3 profile?

 74 7 A. Correct.

77:1 - 77:21 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 77 1 Q. Do you have an understanding,

 77 2 based on looking at the records today, why you

 77 3 would just do the acoustic immittance at this

 77 4 time?

 77 5 A. Uh-huh. He had eustachian tube

 77 6 dysfunction during that time in his left ear.

 77 7 Q. And can you explain a little bit

 77 8 more sort of what that means?

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 77 9 A. The best way to explain it is the

 77 10 middle ear system constantly bathes with a

 77 11 residual fluid; every time you swallow, it's

 77 12 going down from that middle ear, you know,

 77 13 behind your eardrum, down the eustachian tube,

 77 14 that's what opens and closes and equalizes

 77 15 pressure.

 77 16 If this gets a little swollen

 77 17 from a cold, being ill, mostly allergies, and

 77 18 that middle ear system is not moving correctly.

 77 19 Not an ear infection unless bacteria is

 77 20 introduced to it, so typically we don't put

 77 21 anybody on antibiotics for something like that.

78:1 - 78:8 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 78 1 Q. Okay. So Because of the

 78 2 eustachian tube dysfunction, did you not do the

 78 3 air conduction test because -- would that

 78 4 impact the results, or what's the purpose

 78 5 behind that?

 78 6 A. Correct. It would impact the

 78 7 results. You would end up having partial

 78 8 conductive hearing loss.

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78:9 - 78:23 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 78 9 Q. Okay. So based on the fact that

 78 10 he was having eustachian tube issues, did you

 78 11 look into whether he actually did, in fact,

 78 12 have conductive hearing loss or is this a

 78 13 temporary thing?

 78 14 A. It's a temporary thing. So when

 78 15 somebody has eustachian tube dysfunction, the

 78 16 first visit, for example, we wait two weeks,

 78 17 have them come back, and we measure it again.

 78 18 If it's gone, then we can do the testing. If

 78 19 it's not, on that second visit, we wait one

 78 20 week, and on the third week we would do the

 78 21 testing, but then send them to the ear, nose,

 78 22 and throat doctor because of the middle ear

 78 23 issue.

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Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19) 19

 79 15 So why don't we look at his

 79 16 results from a couple of weeks later.

 79 17 A. Just let me know what page.

 79 18 Q. Absolutely. It is on page 14.

 79 19 A. Okay.

 79 20 Q. All right. And do you see on

 79 21 page 14, this is an appointment from April 4,

 79 22 2019?

 79 23 A. Yes.

 79 24 Q. That's about two and a half weeks

 79 25 after the March 18, 2019, report?

 80 1 A. Yes.

80:24 - 81:3 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 80 24 And so then this April 4, 2019,

 80 25 visit, this is the visit to then evaluate

 81 1 whether or not Sergeant Camarillorazo meets an

 81 2 H3 profile; is that right?

 81 3 A. Correct.

81:14 - 81:18 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 81 14 Q. In this report on April 4,

 81 15 Sergeant Camarillorazo is now reporting

 81 16 tinnitus, which is intermittent, in both ears;

 81 17 is that right?

 81 18 A. Correct.

82:8 - 83:10 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 82 8 So on August 7, of 2013, when he

 82 9 told you that he reports tinnitus which is

 82 10 intermittent in the left ear, as far as you're

 82 11 aware, you're documenting, as accurately as

 82 12 possible, what Sergeant Camarillorazo told you

 82 13 during that visit; is that right?

 82 14 A. Correct.

 82 15 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 82 16 Q. All right. And then, you know,

 82 17 flash forward six years later, on March 18,

 82 18 2019, when it says, you know, no tinnitus

 82 19 reported in either ear, as far as you're aware,

 82 20 you're reporting as accurately as possible

 82 21 something that either Sergeant Camarillorazo

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Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19) 20

 82 22 wrote or told you; is that right?

 82 23 A. Correct.

 82 24 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 82 25 Q. All right. And then, now, you

 83 1 know, two and a half weeks later, on April 4,

 83 2 2019, when it says: Reports tinnitus, which is

 83 3 intermittent in both ears, as far as you're

 83 4 aware, you're reporting as accurately as

 83 5 possible something that Sergeant Camarillorazo

 83 6 either wrote or told you; is that right?

 83 7 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 83 8 Q. You can answer the question, Dr.

 83 9 Glick.

 83 10 A. I did. I said yes

85:7 - 85:11 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 85 7 Q. And do you see on page 15 of the

 85 8 document, there is a full results of a complete

 85 9 audiological evaluation that you did of

 85 10 Sergeant Camarillorazo?

 85 11 A. Correct.

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 85 12 Q. All right. And so I want to look

 85 13 at, again, the PTA, which is the pure-tone

 85 14 average.

 85 15 Do you see that?

 85 16 A. Yes.

 85 17 Q. And are you able to ascertain

 85 18 what the PTA is for the right and left ear?

 85 19 A. It looks like 5 and 10.

 85 20 Q. Okay. And are you able to

 85 21 determine whether his PTA is in agreement with

 85 22 his SRT?

 85 23 A. It is.

 85 24 Q. Okay. And so what does that tell

 85 25 you about Sergeant Camarillorazo's hearing at

 86 1 the time that he was visiting you on April 4,

 86 2 2019?

 86 3 A. That his pure-tone average is in

 86 4 normal limits.

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86:5 - 86:11 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 86 5 Q. And can you describe what you

 86 6 mean by that?

 86 7 A. 5, 1, and 2 are within normal

 86 8 limits. So, we're, again, adding 5, 1, and 2

 86 9 and dividing it by three to get the PTA. And

 86 10 then doing the SRT test to see how low we can

 86 11 get it and if it coincides.

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86:12 - 86:20 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 86 12 Q. I see. So in this test, on April

 86 13 4, 2019, for his right ear you were able to

 86 14 ratchet the sound down to 5 dBs for the SRT; is

 86 15 that right?

 86 16 A. Correct.

 86 17 Q. And then for his left ear, you

 86 18 were able to ratchet the sound down to 10 dBs

 86 19 for the SRT; is that right?

 86 20 A. Correct.

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86:21 - 87:7 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 86 21 Q. Okay. And then you also did a

 86 22 word recognition test; is that right?

 86 23 A. Correct.

 86 24 Q. And can you tell me what the word

 86 25 recognition test results on this April 2019

 87 1 test show?

 87 2 A. He was 100 percent in both ears.

 87 3 Q. So what does that mean from your

 87 4 perspective, based on looking at this document?

 87 5 A. That he had an excellent result

 87 6 when we put him at a most comfortable listening

 87 7 level for him.

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87:25 - 88:3 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 87 25 Q. Okay. So as of April 2019,

 88 1 Sergeant Camarillorazo still has the H2 profile

 88 2 that he was assigned in 2013; is that right?

 88 3 A. Correct. But updated.

88:4 - 88:6 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 88 4 Q. Can -- Updated in what sense?

 88 5 A. Every five years the profile has

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 88 6 to be rewritten.

88:13 - 88:17 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 88 13 Q. I see. Okay. So nothing

 88 14 necessarily substantively in the profile

 88 15 changed, but you still needed to evaluate what

 88 16 his profile was; is that right?

 88 17 A. Correct.

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93:14 - 93:18 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 93 14 Q. Is it your understanding that you

 93 15 did an audiological evaluation of Sergeant

 93 16 Camarillorazo on December 17, 2020?

 93 17 A. We did immittance testing again,

 93 18 not a full audiological evaluation.

94:12 - 95:6 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 94 12 Q. Okay. Now, again, if you look

 94 13 through the past medical and surgical history,

 94 14 this is your usual process where Sergeant

 94 15 Camarillorazo fills out a questionnaire and

 94 16 then you go over the questionnaire with him;

 94 17 correct?

 94 18 A. Correct.

 94 19 Q. All right. And it says here:

 94 20 Reports tinnitus which is constant in both

 94 21 ears.

 94 22 Do you see that?

 94 23 A. Yes.

 94 24 Q. And based on the records that

 94 25 we've walked through today, have you seen that

 95 1 statement in any of the other records to date?

 95 2 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 95 3 A. Can I answer that?

 95 4 Q. You can answer.

 95 5 A. Okay. Yes. That he's reported

 95 6 tinnitus before.

95:13 - 95:25 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 95 13 Q. Now, if you go to impression it

 95 14 says: Tympanometry is consistent with abnormal

 95 15 middle ear function bilaterally.

 95 16 Do you see that?

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 95 17 A. Yes.

 95 18 Q. What does that mean?

 95 19 A. He had eustachian tube

 95 20 dysfunction again, but this time in both ears.

 95 21 Q. Okay. So this is the second time

 95 22 we've seen today eustachian tube dysfunction in

 95 23 Sergeant Camarillorazo's records; is that

 95 24 right?

 95 25 A. Correct.

96:18 - 97:5 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 96 18 So, Dr. Glick, this is the second

 96 19 time we've seen issues with Sergeant

 96 20 Camarillorazo's eustachian tubes; correct?

 96 21 A. Correct.

 96 22 Q. And so what, if anything, does

 96 23 that tell you about Sergeant Camarillorazo's

 96 24 ears or any ear-related injuries he may have?

 96 25 A. Eustachian tube dysfunction is

 97 1 not an injury.

 97 2 Q. Okay. And so -- Sorry. Go

 97 3 ahead.

 97 4 A. It's a temporary, you know,

 97 5 anomaly, basically. It's temporary.

97:14 - 97:25 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 97 14 Okay. So as a result of his

 97 15 tympanometry, did you again then push out the

 97 16 full hearing clinical evaluation for a few

 97 17 weeks out; is that right?

 97 18 A. Correct.

 97 19 Q. Okay. All right. So let's look

 97 20 at his most recent evaluation, which is on page

 97 21 10.

 97 22 A. Okay.

 97 23 Q. All right. And do you see at the

 97 24 top of page 10 it says: January 7, 2021?

 97 25 A. Yes.

99:20 - 101:2 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 99 20 Q. Okay. So, again, I just want to

 99 21 walk through some of the results that you got

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 99 22 on that day. So under pure-tone average, it

 99 23 looks like the right and left are 12 dB and 18

 99 24 dB respectively; correct?

 99 25 A. Correct.

 100 1 Q. And then the SRT is 15 dB and 20

 100 2 dB respectively in the right and left ear, do

 100 3 you see that?

 100 4 A. Yes.

 100 5 Q. And so how would you describe the

 100 6 results of the pure-tone average and the SRT

 100 7 testing?

 100 8 A. They're consistent.

 100 9 Q. Okay. And you said a little bit

 100 10 earlier, you've described some results as

 100 11 within normal limits. Would that apply here as

 100 12 well?

 100 13 A. Correct.

 100 14 Q. Okay. So the PTA, pure-tone

 100 15 average, and the speech reception threshold are

 100 16 within what you'd call normal limits; true?

 100 17 A. Correct.

 100 18 Q. Okay. And then can you describe

 100 19 for me what the word recognition results show?

 100 20 A. He's at 100 percent, at a most

 100 21 comfortable listening level for him.

 100 22 Q. Okay. And what does that tell

 100 23 you, if anything, about his hearing on this

 100 24 date January 7, 2021?

 100 25 A. As long as we have him at a

 101 1 comfortable listening level, he can understand

 101 2 speech well.

101:18 - 102:3 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 101 18 I just want to understand if

 101 19 there's anything significant about the fact

 101 20 that over the course of your treatment of

 101 21 Sergeant Camarillorazo he's had multiple

 101 22 eustachian tube issues?

 101 23 MS. HUNT: I'm going to make the

 101 24 same objection to scope.

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 101 25 A. But do I still answer it?

 102 1 Q. Yes.

 102 2 A. Okay. No. I wouldn't consider

 102 3 two times multiple.

102:5 - 103:5 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 102 5 All right. Then lastly, I want

 102 6 to look at, under impression, do you see that

 102 7 on your January 7, 2021, record?

 102 8 A. Yes.

 102 9 Q. Okay. And it says in the

 102 10 impression: A mild sensorineural hearing loss

 102 11 was found in the right ear and a moderate

 102 12 sensorineural hearing loss was found in the

 102 13 left ear.

 102 14 Do you see that?

 102 15 A. Yes.

 102 16 Q. And based on your review of

 102 17 Sergeant Camarillorazo's records today, is that

 102 18 an accurate statement?

 102 19 A. Correct.

 102 20 Q. Okay. And then it says: Test

 102 21 results are consistent with his full evaluation

 102 22 in April 2019, see report, with no change in

 102 23 hearing noted.

 102 24 Do you see that?

 102 25 A. Yes.

 103 1 Q. And can you just explain to me

 103 2 what you mean by that?

 103 3 A. Meaning, he did not have a

 103 4 positive STS when compared to his last full

 103 5 evaluation.

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103:6 - 103:11 Glick, Piper Christie (2019-03-19)

 103 6 Q. Okay. And so in other words,

 103 7 does that mean that from April 2019 until

 103 8 January of 2021 what you're seeing in the air

 103 9 conduction results is pretty much consistent

 103 10 from -- between that time period?

 103 11 A. Correct.

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15:6 - 15:23 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 15 6 You said that you were responsible for a

 15 7 number of products that were being integrated from

 15 8 Aearo.

 15 9 A. Uh-huh.

 15 10 Q. Okay. Aearo was a company that 3M had

 15 11 acquired; right?

 15 12 A. That's correct.

 15 13 Q. Okay. And one of the product lines that

 15 14 3M acquired with Aearo was the -- what came to be

 15 15 known as the Combat Arms Earplugs line; right?

 15 16 A. It was one of the products; correct.

 15 17 Right.

 15 18 Q. And one of the -- one of those products

 15 19 was the Combat Arms Earplugs -- I'll call it

 15 20 Version 2; is that right?

 15 21 A. You know, it's a lot of detail for me.

 15 22 But I believe so. I mean, I had a ton of products,

 15 23 and I wasn't down into -- into the weeds.

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21:18 - 21:21 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 21 18 Q. Okay. You put here under your education

 21 19 something known as "Six Sigma."

 21 20 Do you see that?

 21 21 A. I do.

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21:22 - 22:1 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 21 22 Q. Okay. Now, Six Sigma is a business

 21 23 education program where you obtain some type of

 21 24 certifications regarding working in business. Is

 22 1 that a reasonable explanation for it?

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22:4 - 22:17 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 22 4 THE WITNESS: Say it again, just --

 22 5 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 22 6 Q. Sure. Why don't you tell me, sir, what

 22 7 Six Sigma is in your education.

 22 8 A. From my perspective, it was a way of

 22 9 standardizing processes, providing a common 

language

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 22 10 for the company.

 22 11 Q. Okay. And you were providing -- you used

 22 12 this Six Sigma education in all of the work that you

 22 13 did at 3M; isn't that correct?

 22 14 A. In all of the work that I did at 3M? I'm

 22 15 not sure what you mean. I used it -- I would use Six

 22 16 Sigma where Six Sigma applied, and the whole 

company

 22 17 did. It wasn't just me.

23:19 - 24:2 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 23 19 Q. And Six Sigma, one of the components of it

 23 20 was that if you created the right processes, that

 23 21 99.99966 percent of the time, you would avoid 

defects

 23 22 in your products; isn't that right?

 23 23 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 23 24 the question.

 24 1 A. You know, it was a long time ago for me.

 24 2 So I can't say yes or no. You're saying it. So ...

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26:8 - 26:13 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 26 8 Q. Well, I'm asking if you, when you employed

 26 9 the Six Sigma process at 3M that you have on your

 26 10 r�sum�, where you're a black belt, if you utilized

 26 11 that in order to help reduce defects or problems with

 26 12 3M products?

 26 13 A. No.

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26:17 - 27:4 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 26 17 Q. So what was the purpose of you using the

 26 18 Six Sigma process that you got a black belt in?

 26 19 A. My black belt project was totally -- it

 26 20 had nothing to do with manufacturing processes at

 26 21 all.

 26 22 Q. What did it have to do with?

 26 23 A. It had to do with new product development

 26 24 and the stage-gate process. And so how we could

 27 1 improve our time to market.

 27 2 Q. How you could speed up getting something

 27 3 to the market?

 27 4 A. Correct.

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30:19 - 31:17 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 30 19 Q. Okay. And when you got promoted to 

global

 30 20 business director for hearing protection, did you go

 30 21 and get some documents to review to understand the

 30 22 product lines that related to hearing protection?

 30 23 A. Sir, I think you need to understand, my --

 30 24 our process, the way our structure was set up was, I

 31 1 didn't get into a specific product category and

 31 2 really worry about it. That wasn't my concern. We

 31 3 had setup people underneath me that had

 31 4 responsibility for the product side of it, and then

 31 5 we had -- the way 3M's structure was, we had people

 31 6 that were responsible for the sales and

 31 7 implementation of products selling into regions of

 31 8 the world. And those were the guys that would be

 31 9 responsible for that. I wasn't.

 31 10 Q. But -- okay.

 31 11 So I understand that, to you, the CAE2,

 31 12 the Combat Arms Earplug Version 2, was just a 

SKU

 31 13 number. But there were people, then, that were

 31 14 working for you that -- I think you're saying -- were

 31 15 focused on the details of it.

 31 16 Is that what you're telling us?

 31 17 A. Yes. That's fair.

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35:2 - 35:22 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 35 2 Q. Sir, you know what the -- the word

 35 3 "defect" means?

 35 4 A. Generally.

 35 5 Q. Okay. And when it comes to a product, the

 35 6 word "defect" means that the product -- one

 35 7 definition would be the product isn't performing as

 35 8 represented.

 35 9 Is that -- would you agree with that?

 35 10 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 35 11 the question.

 35 12 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 35 13 Q. Do you agree with that?

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 35 14 MR. ELLIS: Same objection.

 35 15 A. It's fine. Okay.

 35 16 Q. Okay. Do you agree that if you sell a

 35 17 product without instructions for use to the people

 35 18 using it, that that would be improper?

 35 19 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 35 20 the question.

 35 21 A. I don't have an opinion one way or

 35 22 another. I mean ...

36:3 - 36:13 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 36 3 Q. Okay. And so during that entire time

 36 4 period, was there -- did you understand that a

 36 5 company should not sell products which did not have

 36 6 instructions for use by the people you were selling

 36 7 them to?

 36 8 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 36 9 the question.

 36 10 A. Again, we had people and processes in

 36 11 place --

 36 12 Q. So --

 36 13 A. -- to ensure those things.

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37:17 - 37:21 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 37 17 Q. Okay. So do you know, as global director

 37 18 for hearing protection, who would have been

 37 19 responsible for making sure that there were proper

 37 20 instructions for use in the earplugs being sold to

 37 21 the United States military?

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37:24 - 38:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 37 24 A. So from a -- and, again, this is

 38 1 six-and-a-half, seven years ago. It would have been

 38 2 somebody -- if it's in the U.S., in the U.S.

 38 3 organizational structure.

 38 4 Q. But you don't know who -- who it is?

 38 5 A. No. I mean, it was -- I honestly --

 38 6 that's a long time ago. And, again, I wouldn't deal

 38 7 with those people. They're not in my reporting

 38 8 structure.

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50:2 - 50:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 50 2 Q. Okay. I've marked as Exhibit 4 to your

 50 3 deposition a document, and it appears to be entitled

 50 4 "Worldwide Aearo HHEF Products, Military Versus

 50 5 Nonmilitary Sales Quarterly, 2006 to 2008."

 50 6 Take a look at that, please. I've tabbed

 50 7 a particular page.

 50 8 Okay. Do you want me to look at the tab?

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51:2 - 51:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 51 2 Q. Okay. These are documents that you 

 51 3 periodically would be provided by people that 

worked

 51 4 for you; correct?

 51 5 A. I honestly don’t recognize the form of

 51 6 this document, quite frankly. And if this came from

 51 7 Eileen Tsai, this isn’t what I would normally 

 51 8 receive. But go ahead.

60:1 - 60:24 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 60 1 Q. This is -- okay.

 60 2 We're looking at what appears to be the

 60 3 2006 year of sales.

 60 4 Do you see that, right there, this column?

 60 5 A. Sorry.

 60 6 Q. The first column on the left, the first

 60 7 block on the left.

 60 8 A. Yeah.

 60 9 Q. All right. And the block on the right is

 60 10 2006, Quarter 1.

 60 11 Do you see that?

 60 12 A. And this is for the U.S. Yes.

 60 13 Q. Uh-huh. And if we go down to "Hearing

 60 14 Protection," the first product listed is the Combat

 60 15 Arms.

 60 16 Do you see that?

 60 17 A. I do.

 60 18 Q. And the -- this is the average sales price

 60 19 for the Combat Arms.

 60 20 A. Okay.

 60 21 Q. Do you see that?

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 60 22 A. Yep.

 60 23 Q. Okay. And that's for all of your sales;

 60 24 right? The $5.83?

61:9 - 61:22 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 61 9 Q. Well, take a look at it. And I want to

 61 10 look at the -- you see how we have the -- the

 61 11 military -- the military sales?

 61 12 A. True.

 61 13 Q. Do you see that?

 61 14 A. I do.

 61 15 Q. And do you see that the average sales

 61 16 price to the military is $5.91?

 61 17 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 61 18 the question.

 61 19 A. Yeah.

 61 20 Q. All right. And that's for the Combat

 61 21 Arms; right?

 61 22 A. That's what the document says.

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62:1 - 62:14 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 62 1 Q. Okay. And now let's go over to the

 62 2 nonmilitary sales of Combat Arms Earplugs; all 

right?

 62 3 A. Where are you? I'm sorry.

 62 4 Q. It's the next column to your right.

 62 5 A. Okay.

 62 6 Q. And the average sales price for the

 62 7 nonmilitary sales was $5.07.

 62 8 Do you see that?

 62 9 A. Okay.

 62 10 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 62 11 the question.

 62 12 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 62 13 Q. Do you see that?

 62 14 A. I do see --

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65:12 - 66:2 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 65 12 Q. Did you know that when the products were

 65 13 sold to nonmilitary customers, they were sold with

 65 14 individual packages?

 65 15 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

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 65 16 the question.

 65 17 A. I'm sorry. I don't mean to laugh. I'm

 65 18 sorry.

 65 19 But, no, I wouldn't know that. I didn't

 65 20 get down into that level of detail. That wasn't -- I

 65 21 wasn't concerned about packaging. I wasn't --

 65 22 Q. What were you concerned about?

 65 23 A. New product introductions, the global

 65 24 business and how -- at that point in time, my job

 66 1 was -- was about growing business outside of the

 66 2 U.S., quite frankly.

66:3 - 66:6 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 66 3 It had nothing to do with the U.S. We had

 66 4 to build structures around the world because of the

 66 5 acquisition, because our structure was totally

 66 6 different than Aearo's.

66:17 - 66:19 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 66 17 Q. Sir, I've marked as Exhibit 5 to your

 66 18 deposition an e-mail thread dated March 6, 2012.

 66 19 A. Okay.

72:17 - 73:4 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 72 17 Q. Okay. Let's look what it says here.

 72 18 "Market Trends and Aggravating Circumstances.

 72 19 Number 1, fewer combat-deployed U.S. personnel."

 72 20 Do you see that statement?

 72 21 A. I do.

 72 22 Q. And they go on to say "Completed Iraqi

 72 23 withdrawal and pending Afghanistan withdrawal 

have

 72 24 created a smaller market for RFI orders."

 73 1 Do you see that?

 73 2 A. Uh-huh.

 73 3 Q. What does "RFI" mean?

 73 4 A. I don't know.

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73:11 - 73:16 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 73 11 Q. "We knew this was an eventuality" --

 73 12 "eventuality and planned several initiatives to

 73 13 counteract this downward pressure on CAE 

revenue."

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McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20) 9

 73 14 A. Okay.

 73 15 Q. Do you see that?

 73 16 A. I see that.

78:8 - 78:12 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 78 8 Q. Okay. So Exhibit 6 is an e-mail thread

 78 9 dated March 19, 2011 -- or at least the last e-mail

 78 10 in the thread is March 19, 2011.

 78 11 Do you see that?

 78 12 I do.

80:2 - 80:16 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 80 2 Q. So if we go to some discussions that --

 80 3 by -- an e-mail sent by Doug Ohlin to Doug Moses.

 80 4 Doug Moses worked for you; right?

 80 5 A. No. He did not.

 80 6 Q. Oh, who did he work for?

 80 7 A. He worked in the U.S. structure.

 80 8 Honestly, I don't -- I can't recall who he worked

 80 9 for.

 80 10 Q. You had quite a bit of interaction with

 80 11 Doug Moses over the time that you were global

 80 12 business director for hearing protection, didn't you?

 80 13 A. No.

 80 14 Q. He would send you e-mails and

 80 15 communications to you about hearing protection and

 80 16 sales to the military?

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 80 19 A. Again, I would not call my interactions

 80 20 with Doug very -- a lot at all. No.

 80 21 Q. Okay. We'll come back to Doug Moses.

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82:7 - 83:15 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 82 7 Q. And if we go back to these e-mails, we see

 82 8 that Doug Ohlin apparently went to this conference

 82 9 out in San Diego about hearing protection in the

 82 10 military; right?

 82 11 A. I don't know.

 82 12 Q. Well, that's what it appears.

 82 13 Do you agree with that?

 82 14 A. I haven't read it. So ...

 82 15 Q. Doug Ohlin is reporting to Doug Moses.

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McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20) 10

 82 16 Do you see that?

 82 17 A. Yeah, I do. Wait a minute. No, I don't.

 82 18 Where are you?

 82 19 Okay. In the redacted. Okay. Got it.

 82 20 Q. And he -- in the e-mail he's reporting

 82 21 details about competition for the CAE earplug.

 82 22 Do you see that?

 82 23 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 82 24 the question.

 83 1 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 83 2 Q. If you go to paragraph 3, the unredacted

 83 3 portion.

 83 4 A. That's what this appears to be. Yeah.

 83 5 Q. Now, he says that -- or tell me if I'm

 83 6 reading this correctly. "Before this meeting, I had

 83 7 picked up some chatter in e-mails about a

 83 8 level-dependent earplug that was easier to change

 83 9 modes between linear and nonlinear while wearing

 83 10 gloves. That earplug turned out to be Moldex's

 83 11 Rocket plug which was provided to me at the

 83 12 conference with a heads-up that the U.S. Army had

 83 13 approved it for use."

 83 14 Do you see that statement?

 83 15 A. I do.

83:16 - 83:23 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 83 16 Q. "Both of which were passed on to Doug

 83 17 Moses, who has passed on the implications in 

another

 83 18 e-mail."

 83 19 Do you see that statement?

 83 20 A. Uh-huh.

 83 21 Q. Okay. So we're getting down in some weeds

 83 22 here regarding earplugs and the United States

 83 23 military and 3M's competition, aren't we?

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84:3 - 84:4 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 84 3 Q. You said you didn't get down in the weeds.

 84 4 We're getting down in some weeds here.

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84:6 - 84:6 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 84 6 A. I didn't get down in the weeds.

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84:13 - 84:22 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 84 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I did not get

 84 14 down in the weeds. I will say that.

 84 15 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 84 16 Q. Okay. You -- you read this e-mail thread

 84 17 at the time; right?

 84 18 A. I don't recall reading it. I can tell you

 84 19 what I did.

 84 20 What I did was I forwarded it to Phillip,

 84 21 who would have responsibility for the hearing

 84 22 protection product line.

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90:23 - 91:20 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 90 23 Let's look at the e-mail that Moses --

 90 24 Doug Moses sent to Mike Cimino. It says, "All,

 91 1 please see the below message from Doug O."

 91 2 That's Doug Ohlin; right?

 91 3 A. I don't know.

 91 4 Q. You don't know who Doug O. is?

 91 5 A. No.

 91 6 Q. Did you ever hear of Doug Ohlin?

 91 7 A. I've heard of him, yeah.

 91 8 Q. Who is he?

 91 9 A. He worked for 3M. I really never met the

 91 10 man. I just know through e-mails. I don't know 

him.

 91 11 Q. "I asked Doug to write up his

 91 12 recollections of the high points regarding the

 91 13 various conversations and briefings from this past

 91 14 week at JDVAC."

 91 15 Do you see that statement?

 91 16 A. I do.

 91 17 Q. Okay. And we know JDVAC is the Joint

 91 18 Defense Veterans Audiology Conference; right?

 91 19 A. I didn't know that until you told me.

 91 20 Thank you.

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97:23 - 98:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 97 23 Q. By the way, you mentioned you really

 97 24 didn't have much communication with Mr. Moses.

 98 1 Do you remember saying that a few minutes

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 98 2 ago?

 98 3 A. I do.

 98 4 Q. In fact, you -- at one point you even told

 98 5 Mr. Moses not to communicate certain things to you 

in

 98 6 e-mails.

 98 7 Do you remember that?

 98 8 A. No.

98:12 - 98:17 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 98 12 Q. Do you remember telling him not to put

 98 13 things in writing about topics concerning the United

 98 14 States military and the Combat Arms Earplugs?

 98 15 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 98 16 the question.

 98 17 A. No. I don't remember.

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99:7 - 99:10 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 99 7 Q. Exhibit 7 is an e-mail thread, the last

 99 8 e-mail of which is February 10, 2012.

 99 9 Do you see that?

 99 10 A. I do.

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 99 15 Okay. Sir, the e-mail starts out with an

 99 16 e-mail from Doug Moses to Brian McGinley.

 99 17 That's you; right?

 99 18 A. Yeah. That's me.

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104:8 - 105:4 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 104 8 First, and this is how he started this.

 104 9 It says, "Brian, I was reluctant to put too much in

 104 10 an e-mail without your approval, given your 

direction

 104 11 to me a few months ago."

 104 12 Do you see that statement?

 104 13 A. I do.

 104 14 Q. Okay. So at some point, this Mr. Moses,

 104 15 with whom you didn't have very much contact, had 

been

 104 16 told, according to him, by you, to not put too much

 104 17 in an e-mail without your approval.

 104 18 That's what he's telling you; right?

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 104 19 A. You'd have to ask him. I don't know what

 104 20 he means by that. You need to ask him, not me. He

 104 21 wrote it. I didn't.

 104 22 Q. Well, we know that you did not write back

 104 23 to him and say, I don't know what you're talking

 104 24 about, did you?

 105 1 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 105 2 the question.

 105 3 A. Again, I don't remember any of this.

 105 4 So ...

121:12 - 121:15 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 121 12 Let’s look at Exhibit 9 together.

 121 13 Again, this is an e-mail to -- from

 121 14 P. van de Werken, to B.S. McGinley, that's you.

 121 15 A. Yep.

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124:23 - 125:7 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 124 23 Q. He goes on, "However, even if you use a

 124 24 calculation of one pair of Combat Arms Earplugs 

per

 125 1 six months for every soldier at $7.70 a pair, then

 125 2 our market potential is 22 million in the U.S."

 125 3 Do you see that statement?

 125 4 A. I do.

 125 5 Q. And then he says, "That is already

 125 6 optimistic, since it assumes that all 1.4 million

 125 7 soldiers would do two tours of combat per year."

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125:13 - 125:20 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 125 13 Q. So you -- I put this up because you two

 125 14 might have been the only two people in the United

 125 15 States that thought soldiers doing two tours of duty

 125 16 back in 2011 in combat was optimistic thinking.

 125 17 Do you agree with that?

 125 18 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 125 19 the question. Argumentative.

 125 20 A. I don't agree or disagree.

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128:12 - 128:15 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 128 12 Q. Marked as Exhibit 10 to your deposition, a

 128 13 document entitled "Aearo Strategic Planning 

Session

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McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20) 14

 128 14 Military." It bears Bates number, in the lowest

 128 15 right-hand corner, 3M_MDL00048948, through -

8245.

128:17 - 128:19 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 128 17 this back onto the one without the marks.

 128 18 Here we go. Okay

 128 19 Q. Thank you.

130:3 - 130:11 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 130 3 Q. So the document at 955 has something

 130 4 called "Planning Teams."

 130 5 A. Yep.

 130 6 Q. "Team Blue"?

 130 7 A. Yep.

 130 8 Q. There's Doug Moses, Mike Cimino, Rick

 130 9 Morris. And then we have -- that's you right there;

 130 10 correct?

 130 11 A. Yes.

133:20 - 134:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 133 20 Q. If you go to page 215.

 133 21 A. 215? Sorry. Okay.

 133 22 Q. Okay. So the planning teams in this

 133 23 meeting, according to this PowerPoint, were 

looking

 133 24 at details like "Department of Defense spending as

 134 1 the war efforts continue.”

 134 2 Do you see that?

 134 3 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

 134 4 Q. Turn the next page, you even have price –

 134 5 dollar amounts for how muchit’s going to cost to

 134 6 uniform and equip soldiers in the current operations.

 134 7 Do you see that? Do you see that?

 134 8 A. Uh-huh. 

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135:13 - 136:2 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 135 13 Q. So my question is, do you see anything in

 135 14 this PowerPoint for the Aearo Strategic Planning

 135 15 Session-Military, that discusses a plan to provide

 135 16 servicemen and women with instructions on how to 

use

 135 17 these earplugs that I'm putting up there, which, of

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 135 18 course, are the Combat Arms Earplugs Version 2.

 135 19 A. Okay.

 135 20 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 135 21 the question.

 135 22 BY MR. PENNOCK:

 135 23 Q. Are you done?

 135 24 A. It's a beautiful document. I don't

 136 1 remember it being there. That's why I took the time

 136 2 to read it.

136:21 - 137:2 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 136 21 There's nothing on that topic in the

 136 22 document; true?

 136 23 A. There's references to training in here, so

 136 24 I don't know what that means, again. So to go to 

the

 137 1 document generator would probably be a good idea, 

but

 137 2 I see some references to training in here. But ...

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137:13 - 138:7 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 137 13 Q. Okay. Where are you -- where are you

 137 14 reading?

 137 15 A. 225, passive hearing.

 137 16 Q. Huh?

 137 17 A. Passive hearing. You can see it right

 137 18 here: "Expand market opportunity to further CAE

 137 19 acceptance for training and other noncombat

 137 20 activities."

 137 21 Q. And you think that's a reference to

 137 22 providing instructions for use to combat -- to

 137 23 servicemen and women?

 137 24 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 138 1 the question.

 138 2 A. I don't know what that -- training. I

 138 3 don't know. Again, I would say I don't -- I wouldn't

 138 4 expect it to show up in this document, but the fact

 138 5 that that's in there is kind of -- you asked the

 138 6 question, and I was just trying to answer your

 138 7 question.

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138:24 - 139:8 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 138 24 Q. When you were global business director for

 139 1 hearing protection for 3M, did you ever have any

 139 2 communications, meetings, discussions of any kind

 139 3 with anyone about providing instructions for use to

 139 4 servicemen and women for the Combat Arms 

Earplugs

 139 5 Version 2?

 139 6 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form.

 139 7 A. That is a very specific question from a

 139 8 long time ago, so I don't recall if I did or didn't.

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150:11 - 150:16 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 150 11 Q. Okay. So -- well, do you -- do you have

 150 12 any information available to you as to whether the

 150 13 United States military was extremely pleased with 

the

 150 14 Aearo product?

 150 15 A. I'm sorry. I don't -- it's a real general

 150 16 question. I'm not sure what you mean.

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151:14 - 152:10 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 151 14 Q. Marking as Exhibit 12 to your deposition

 151 15 an e-mail bearing Bates number 

3M_MDL000293781, and

 151 16 it is an e-mail dated April 12 -- I'm sorry -- an

 151 17 e-mail dated March 5, 2012, from Doug Moses to 

Brian

 151 18 McGinley.

 151 19 A. Okay. Okay.

 151 20 Q. In this e-mail, Mr. Moses writes, "Brian,

 151 21 please see Doug Ohlin's overview below."

 151 22 Do you see that statement?

 151 23 A. I do.

 151 24 Q. Okay. And, again, this is an e-mail to

 152 1 you?

 152 2 A. Correct.

 152 3 Q. "The budgetary implications for the VA now

 152 4 and into the future are huge."

 152 5 Do you see that statement?

 152 6 A. Uh-huh.

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McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20) 17

 152 7 Q. And what he's referring to are the -- is

 152 8 the cost to the VA of hearing injuries suffered by

 152 9 military personnel; right?

 152 10 A. You would have to ask him, I guess.

152:13 - 152:19 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 152 13 Okay. So "We have used the preventive

 152 14 message for a number of years to show the payback 

in

 152 15 dollars and quality of life of buying CAE and other

 152 16 3M products to the United States government is

 152 17 compelling."

 152 18 Do you see that statement?

 152 19 A. I do.

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168:9 - 168:14 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 168 9 Q. Sir, I'm marking as Exhibit 15 to your

 168 10 deposition a document bearing Bates number

 168 11 3M_MDL000372852. It's an e-mail dated April 29,

 168 12 2009, from Doug Moses to a number of people,

 168 13 including you. Take a look at that.

 168 14 A. Okay. All right.

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168:15 - 168:20 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 168 15 Mr. PENNOCK: While you’re reading 

 168 16 that, for the record, I’m also marking as 

 168 17 Exhibit 16 to Mr. McGinley’s deposition a 

 168 18 document bearing Bates number 

 168 19 3M_MDL00372853. It’s a PowerPoint 

 168 20 presentation.

169:19 - 170:3 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 169 19 Q. And it also was going to you. You're the

 169 20 second named person here --

 169 21 A. Right, that's me.

 169 22 Q. -- right?

 169 23 A. Yeah. Got that.

 169 24 Q. And several others?

 170 1 It says this is -- "The attachments are

 170 2 CAE Slides Branding Discussion PowerPoint"; 

right?

 170 3 A. Okay.

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170:4 - 170:24 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 170 4 Q. And he says that they're going to have a

 170 5 discussion, but they're going to move the meeting, or

 170 6 the phone call, one hour; right?

 170 7 A. Okay.

 170 8 Q. And he includes a PowerPoint; correct?

 170 9 A. Yep.

 170 10 Q. Well, if we look at this, this

 170 11 PowerPoint -- have you had a chance to look at it?

 170 12 A. Not yet, but go ahead.

 170 13 Q. Go ahead. It's a PowerPoint talking about

 170 14 the Generation IV earplugs. It says here gen --

 170 15 A. Okay.

 170 16 Q. Page 2. Generation IV mission-ready

 170 17 Combat Arms Earplug.

 170 18 A. Okay.

 170 19 Q. It's a different earplug. It's a new

 170 20 earplug; right?

 170 21 A. Okay.

 170 22 Q. Do you remember that?

 170 23 A. I really don't. I mean, this is the time

 170 24 when I was just moving here. So I was underwater.

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171:19 - 171:24 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 171 19 Q. -- the PowerPoint talks about the

 171 20 Generation II dual-ended.

 171 21 That's what we've been talking about

 171 22 today; right? True?

 171 23 That's what it's talking about in this

 171 24 portion of the slide?

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172:3 - 172:18 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 172 3 Q. And it talks about -- it says that it's a

 172 4 "one-size-fits-all approach."

 172 5 Do you see that statement?

 172 6 A. I see the statement.

 172 7 Q. Were you aware that it was a

 172 8 one-size-fits-all approach?

 172 9 Do you remember that?

 172 10 A. No. I don't.

 172 11 Q. It says "Sold in bulk pack, no individual

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 172 12 instructions."

 172 13 Do you see that?

 172 14 A. I see it.

 172 15 Q. And it says "Marines still deploy with

 172 16 this earplug."

 172 17 Do you see that statement?

 172 18 A. I do.

172:19 - 172:21 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 172 19 Q. "Launched in 2004."

 172 20 Do you see that statement?

 172 21 A. I do.

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 172 22 Q. Is that all consistent with what your

 172 23 understanding was at the time regarding the -- this

 172 24 device?

 173 1 A. Again, it's not consistent because I don't

 173 2 have that understanding. I will go back and say it

 173 3 again and again, I didn't get into this level of

 173 4 detail, and especially in 2009. I am just moving

 173 5 back to the U.S. I've got bigger issues than a

 173 6 Combat Arms Earplug at that point in time.

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175:17 - 175:24 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 175 17 Q. Marked as 17 to your deposition, a

 175 18 document bearing Bates number 

3M_MDL000263773 through

 175 19 -775. Okay. This is -- in the top, the last e-mail

 175 20 in this thread is an e-mail from you?

 175 21 A. Uh-huh.

 175 22 Q. B.S. McGinley to Doug Moses.

 175 23 Do you see that?

 175 24 A. I do. Yeah.

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176:14 - 177:3 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 176 14 Q. In this e-mail, you write to Doug Moses 

 175 15 and CC a number of other people, “Well done team, 

 175 16 equals Doug. Thanks for all your hard work and 

 175 17 acknowledgement of others. Great to see the 

results. 

 175 18 10 million and a Golden Step award is not too far

 175 19 off. Way to go.”

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 175 20 Do you see that?

 175 21 A. I do.

 175 22 Q. And what you’re talking about here is a 

 175 23 new earplug that is replacing the CAE 

 175 24 Generation II; isn’t that correct?

 177 1 A. I don’t know if it replaced it, but it was 

 177 2 talking about, apparently, a newly designed Combat

 177 3 Arms Earplug, yes.

178:3 - 178:19 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 178 3 Q. The earplug -- the new product, they're

 178 4 going to start selling the new product and try to get

 178 5 it to take hold in the military.

 178 6 Do you see that on the second page?

 178 7 A. Yes. Okay.

 178 8 Q. And he says, "We have several other

 178 9 opportunities in 2010 that should help firmly seek

 178 10 this new product in the U.S. Army ground forces 

and

 178 11 the United States Marine Corps."

 178 12 Do you see that?

 178 13 A. Uh-huh.

 178 14 Q. "The improvements that you made to this

 178 15 design are evident, as both audiologists and end

 178 16 users are taking note of a much easier product to

 178 17 deploy with and wear. Great job."

 178 18 Do you see that statement?

 178 19 A. I do.

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179:18 - 180:12 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 179 18 Q. Looking back at all of this, do you agree

 179 19 that during your time at 3M as global business

 179 20 director for hearing protection, that things -- the

 179 21 business of these earplugs was not well handled by

 179 22 3M?

 179 23 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 179 24 the question.

 180 1 A. No. I don't agree with the statement at

 180 2 all. As a matter of fact, I think we handled it very

 180 3 well.

 180 4 Q. Well, in terms of making money you 

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McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20) 21

handled

 180 5 it very well; right?

 180 6 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 180 7 the question.

 180 8 A. No. I think we handled it very well as

 180 9 far as putting a quality product -- quality products

 180 10 out into the marketplace. I have no problem with

 180 11 that. Our people, our processes, they have stood the

 180 12 test of time.

180:19 - 180:21 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 180 19 A. Yeah, they have stood the test of time.

 180 20 And 3M is a quality company, and we put out 

quality

 180 21 products.

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180:22 - 181:3 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 180 22 Q. But as the global business director for

 180 23 hearing protection, you had no idea whether or not

 180 24 there were defects with this product, did you?

 181 1 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 181 2 the question.

 181 3 A. We had people and processes in place.

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181:6 - 181:11 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 181 6 Q. You were not one of the people and

 181 7 processes in place to ensure that what was going out

 181 8 to our veterans was a quality product, free of

 181 9 defects, were you?

 181 10 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form.

 181 11 A. It wasn't my role, sir.

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 181 12 MR. PENNOCK: Okay. I have no

 181 13 further questions at this time. I pass

 181 14 the witness to Mr. Cartmell.

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191:5 - 191:14 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 191 5 Q. Okay. So now tell me this: Had you ever

 191 6 been told that your laboratory, or the Aearo

 191 7 Laboratory in Indianapolis and Mr. Berger and

 191 8 Mr. Kieper, tested these plugs back in 2000, and 

when

 191 9 they did that, they found that when they were

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 191 10 inserted, the opposite end of the plug could press

 191 11 against the subject's ear canal and cause it to be

 191 12 loosened without the subject even knowing it?

 191 13 Were you ever told anything like that?

 191 14 A. I don't ever recall being told that.

191:20 - 192:10 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 191 20 Q. Okay. If you then go to the next section,

 191 21 it talks about another test they did. And let me

 191 22 make it clear for you, and you can check in the

 191 23 report, that when they were testing this green

 191 24 ear [sic] and they found the difficulty fitting it

 192 1 and they found that it could become imperceptibly

 192 2 loosened, they also found that the results of the

 192 3 testing from the green end were showing that the

 192 4 noise reduction rating, or how effective it was in

 192 5 protecting against noise, was very low.

 192 6 Did you know that?

 192 7 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 192 8 the question.

 192 9 A. Again, I wasn't aware of it. I don't

 192 10 remember being aware of it.

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193:9 - 194:9 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 193 9 Q. And you, having been responsible for

 193 10 hearing protection and the global director of hearing

 193 11 protection at 3M for several years, I take it, know

 193 12 that a noise reduction rating of 11 for a device like

 193 13 this is very low?

 193 14 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 193 15 the question.

 193 16 A. I don't know that.

 193 17 Q. You don't know that?

 193 18 A. To me, it's relevant -- I mean,

 193 19 relevant -- low compared to what?

 193 20 Q. At any rate, did anybody ever tell you

 193 21 that they tested this product, the dual-ended version

 193 22 of the Combat Arms, and not only was it difficult to

 193 23 fit, but it was sometimes slipping out of the ears or

 193 24 pressed out of the ears without the individual

 194 1 knowing it, that they stopped the test after eight

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 194 2 individuals because the noise reduction rating level

 194 3 was so low?

 194 4 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form of

 194 5 the question.

 194 6 BY MR. CARTMELL:

 194 7 Q. Did they tell you that?

 194 8 A. I've never -- I've never seen this report,

 194 9 first of all, so I have never heard those statements.

196:20 - 197:13 McGinley, Brian (2019-12-20)

 196 20 And this part of the sentence that I want

 196 21 to focus you on, the purpose of this report is to

 196 22 document that "The current length of the UltraFit

 196 23 earplug end of the Combat Arms Plug is too short 

for

 196 24 proper insertion."

 197 1 Did anybody ever tell you when you became

 197 2 the global business director of hearing protection

 197 3 for 3M and when you became responsible for these

 197 4 Combat Arms Earplugs -- did anybody ever tell you

 197 5 that there was a report in the files of the company

 197 6 that its purpose was to document specifically that

 197 7 the length of the UltraFit earplug end of the Combat

 197 8 Arms Plug is too short for proper insertion?

 197 9 MR. ELLIS: Object to --

 197 10 BY MR. CARTMELL:

 197 11 Q. Did anyone tell you that?

 197 12 MR. ELLIS: Object to the form.

 197 13 A. I don't recall that.

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7:12 - 7:15 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 7 12 Could you -- I'll just ask you

 7 13 this, would you please state your name for the

 7 14 Record.

 7 15 A. Margaret McKissick.

17:10 - 17:19 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 17 10 Q. Okay. And at some point, you

 17 11 became an audiologist?

 17 12 A. Yes. That was in 2009.

 17 13 Q. 2009 you became an audiologist?

 17 14 A. That's when I -- Yes. I apply to

 17 15 a contractor agency, and I was hired. And then

 17 16 I went to Fort Hood, and they give me -- I -- I

 17 17 got the job, and they gave me a training for a

 17 18 week, and that's when I became certificate as a

 17 19 tech.

19:3 - 19:21 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 19 3 Q. Okay. Are you currently still an

 19 4 audiologist?

 19 5 A. No. I left the job in 2017.

 19 6 Yes.

 19 7 Q. Okay.

 19 8 A. 2017.

 19 9 Q. Are you currently employed?

 19 10 A. Yes.

 19 11 Q. Where do you work for now?

 19 12 A. I am working with Killeen

 19 13 District as a sub, teachers -- subbing for

 19 14 teachers in the last three years.

 19 15 Q. Okay. So you said you started as

 19 16 an audiologist in 2009; is that right?

 19 17 A. Yes. Audiology tech.

 19 18 Q. And you -- It sounds like you

 19 19 applied for the job and then you were trained

 19 20 after that?

 19 21 A. Yes.

20:6 - 20:23 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

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 20 6 So have you worked as an

 20 7 audiology tech at any other bases besides Fort

 20 8 Hood?

 20 9 A. No, sir.

 20 10 Q. Okay. What were your

 20 11 responsibilities in that position at Fort Hood?

 20 12 A. My responsibility was to screen

 20 13 the soldiers.

 20 14 Q. What does screening involve?

 20 15 A. The screening was involved to

 20 16 operate a machine and the machine does the

 20 17 test.

 20 18 Q. And what kind of tests was the

 20 19 machine doing?

 20 20 A. It was -- The test, they screen

 20 21 the hearing. They send noise to the -- to the

 20 22 -- to the person, and the computer record the

 20 23 test.

20:24 - 21:2 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 20 24 Q. Okay.

 20 25 A. I was operating the machine. I

 21 1 was operating a program. That's what I was

 21 2 doing.

21:3 - 21:7 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 21 3 Q. Okay. Thank you. So in a

 21 4 typical day as a tech there, how many -- how

 21 5 many soldiers would you see?

 21 6 A. Honestly, it was plenty of them.

 21 7 I cannot give you a number.

28:11 - 29:2 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 28 11 Q. So, yeah, as you're saying, we're

 28 12 not going to read this whole book, but this is

 28 13 the Army pamphlet 40-501.

 28 14 A. Okay. That's for soldiers, isn't

 28 15 it?

 28 16 Q. It is, yeah. But it covers the

 28 17 Hearing Conservation Program. And this

 28 18 pamphlet was in place while you were at Fort

 28 19 Hood.

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 28 20 A. It is? I don't know.

 28 21 Q. I'm sorry. That's --

 28 22 A. I don't remember, sir. I really

 28 23 don't remember.

 28 24 Q. Okay. That's fine. So you never

 28 25 saw this, to the best of your recollection?

 29 1 A. I do not remember. I do not

 29 2 remember.

33:14 - 33:19 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 33 14 Q. So let me ask you -- Let me ask

 33 15 you this: Did you -- When you worked at Fort

 33 16 Hood, how often did you see the soldiers, each

 33 17 soldier, to have them fit and, you know,

 33 18 examine their earplugs?

 33 19 A. When they make appointments.

33:20 - 33:22 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 33 20 Q. Do you know how often they would

 33 21 make an appointment --

 33 22 A. I don't.

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33:25 - 34:5 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 33 25 Q. When you -- When you worked

 34 1 there, beyond just testing their hearing, did

 34 2 you also -- did you also help them fit their

 34 3 earplugs?

 34 4 A. Yes. If they ask, or we're being

 34 5 told that day we need to fit everybody.

34:6 - 34:11 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 34 6 Q. What were you trying to do when

 34 7 you fit them with earplugs?

 34 8 A. You would make sure that they

 34 9 have the seal.

 34 10 Q. And why was it --

 34 11 A. Uh-huh.

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34:12 - 34:25 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 34 12 Q. I'm sorry. Were you about to say

 34 13 something else?

 34 14 A. I need to make sure that they put

 34 15 their hands on their ear, pull it up, and make

 34 16 sure they have a seal. That's -- That's --

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 34 17 That's what we did.

 34 18 Q. And why was it important that

 34 19 they have a seal?

 34 20 A. It's important that they have a

 34 21 seal, that way the noise does not go in.

 34 22 Q. And while you were working there,

 34 23 was it your job as the tech to help get them a

 34 24 good seal?

 34 25 A. Yes, sir.

35:17 - 35:20 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 35 17 You said you started in 2009, and

 35 18 you -- you stopped working there in 2017; is

 35 19 that correct?

 35 20 A. Yes.

36:12 - 36:18 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 36 12 I just want to make sure I understand this. It

 36 13 sounds like what you're saying is there was --

 36 14 at some point there was a certain type of

 36 15 earplug the soldiers liked, but then at some

 36 16 point it was no longer available; is that

 36 17 right?

 36 18 A. Yes. That's correct.

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36:19 - 37:15 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 36 19 Q. Okay. And do you remember which

 36 20 earplug this was that they wanted that they

 36 21 couldn't get?

 36 22 A. I asked couple of them asking me

 36 23 for the one we -- we were here together, and it

 36 24 was -- I have to let them know that, no, we

 36 25 don't have those anymore. I did not know what

 37 1 was the reason. What I do know is that we do

 37 2 not have it in inventory.

 37 3 Q. Okay. I understand that. Do you

 37 4 remember what kind of earplug it was that they

 37 5 wanted?

 37 6 A. It was the yellow and green, I

 37 7 think that's the color they were. The one we

 37 8 are having issues here. I know, because it was

 37 9 a poster. I remember a poster and it was there

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 37 10 and they say: Do you have those earplugs? And

 37 11 I say: No. We don't have those anymore.

 37 12 Because I ask.

 37 13 Q. Okay.

 37 14 A. I do not know that those exist at

 37 15 all. And then the poster disappear.

39:19 - 39:23 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 39 19 Q. Okay. And so the entire time you

 39 20 worked at Fort Hood, you never gave that

 39 21 earplug to any soldiers; is that correct?

 39 22 A. I do not remember giving those

 39 23 earplugs to anybody.

42:6 - 42:12 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 42 6 Q. So this -- This exhibit that I

 42 7 just showed you is the wallet card. Have you

 42 8 -- Have you seen this exhibit before?

 42 9 A. No, I do not have -- I do not

 42 10 remember seeing this. I remember seeing the

 42 11 earplugs but I do not remember seeing this

 42 12 wallet card.

43:16 - 45:7 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 43 16 Q. No. That's -- That's okay. Do

 43 17 you remember how you would decide or the

 43 18 soldier would decide which kind of earplug that

 43 19 the soldier would get?

 43 20 A. No. We say -- Most likely we

 43 21 say: Which one of this do you like? Well, I

 43 22 use this one and I use this one. And it

 43 23 depends what they use and what they fit, and

 43 24 that's what they use and that's what we give

 43 25 them.

 44 1 Sometimes people like to sleep

 44 2 with earplugs. Okay? And they come and they

 44 3 say that we use one with a very piece -- that

 44 4 it was very small, that way they can put their

 44 5 heads on their pillow and do not bother them.

 44 6 Other ones say: I like the

 44 7 combat, the new one, they have something that

 44 8 you open, and that's what we give them. Unless

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 44 9 we're being told that everybody is going to

 44 10 receive, in that particular day, because we are

 44 11 on the side or -- Because we test everywhere.

 44 12 You know, they have different places that you

 44 13 can do hearing. And -- And hearing

 44 14 conservation, they will provide what we were

 44 15 going to give.

 44 16 Q. Okay. So you mentioned that one

 44 17 of the -- one of the ones that -- that they

 44 18 might have gotten was the new -- a newer Combat

 44 19 Arms Earplug?

 44 20 A. Yes. They were -- I remember

 44 21 those. Because that's when I was explained:

 44 22 This is what we have, I mean, if they want a

 44 23 Combat Arms, because they ask for it.

 44 24 Q. Okay.

 44 25 A. I tell them what we have. This

 45 1 one here, you just put it in, and they come in

 45 2 different sizes. Look how nice this one is;

 45 3 you can open it, close it. It depends where

 45 4 you at and you need to talk, because that was

 45 5 the need of all those, that you can open it and

 45 6 you have the conversation, but anything loud

 45 7 will be muffled.

45:8 - 45:16 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 45 8 Q. Okay. So while you -- While you

 45 9 were working there, if you had given someone a

 45 10 Combat Arms Earplug, it would have been the one

 45 11 with the -- the newer one that you just

 45 12 mentioned?

 45 13 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 45 14 A. Yes. And they come with sizes;

 45 15 it was a small, medium, large, and I think

 45 16 extra small as well.

50:17 - 50:21 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 50 17 I just want to make sure, you

 50 18 know, for the Record, that if you look at block

 50 19 B, the date is August 28, 2014, do you see

 50 20 that?

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 50 21 A. Yes.

52:12 - 53:17 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 52 12 Q. Okay. And then if you look at --

 52 13 and I think this is block G, it says type of

 52 14 personal hearing -- it says type of personal

 52 15 hearing protection used?

 52 16 A. Okay. Let's go and look at that.

 52 17 Q. If you can see that.

 52 18 A. Number 7, yes.

 52 19 Q. Yes. And in any remarks --

 52 20 Strike that.

 52 21 So that's 7. Is that correct,

 52 22 where it says right next to that 7 means none?

 52 23 A. Yes.

 52 24 Q. And then in remarks, the last

 52 25 part of remarks, it says -- the last -- The

 53 1 very end, at the very bottom on the right, it

 53 2 says: HPD fit today. Health ed.

 53 3 Do you see that?

 53 4 A. That's number 7. Where is the

 53 5 other one? Uh-huh. It was fit today.

 53 6 That's the computer. The

 53 7 computer does that.

 53 8 Q. Okay. So -- So under what

 53 9 circumstances would you put -- would you put a

 53 10 7 in that block?

 53 11 A. I don't remember. Honestly, I

 53 12 need to go back to the program to see how that

 53 13 works, because I do not remember. What I --

 53 14 What I can see here is what matters is that

 53 15 full evaluation. Because everything that a

 53 16 person need to know what earplugs a person is

 53 17 doing, he's been seen by a doctor.

54:9 - 54:15 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 54 9 Q. Ms. McKissick, does -- when you

 54 10 -- Does none mean that the soldier was not

 54 11 wearing hearing protection?

 54 12 A. I do not remember what the

 54 13 program says and why it was that. The soldiers

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McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23) 9

 54 14 have to be using hearing protection. What that

 54 15 means, I need to go back to have it --

55:7 - 56:18 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 55 7 Q. Okay. I want to bring up another

 55 8 exhibit here in a minute.

 55 9 A. All right.

 55 10 Q. If you can see that on your

 55 11 screen?

 55 12 A. Exhibit Number 34?

 55 13 Q. Yeah. If you scroll down to the

 55 14 bottom there should be a little marking there

 55 15 that says G_Camarillorazo_DoD_00014.

 55 16 Do you see that at the very

 55 17 bottom?

 55 18 A. Yes. You show me this one

 55 19 already. It's on the other test.

 55 20 Q. I'm sorry. Say that again.

 55 21 A. Okay. This form you have here

 55 22 you just show me one that he have -- he came

 55 23 back. This is a test that he took. You see

 55 24 that -- This is a test on the 28 of August 2014

 55 25 and then you have one that was a September

 56 1 something. This is the same one.

 56 2 Q. Well, if we look in this one, if

 56 3 we look on block -- it's hard to read, but I

 56 4 believe it's G where it says type of personal

 56 5 protection used, do you see that, the block

 56 6 that says type of personal protection used?

 56 7 A. Uh-huh.

 56 8 Q. Personal hearing protection, I

 56 9 should say. In this form, the block is filled

 56 10 out with a 6.

 56 11 Do you see that?

 56 12 A. Yes.

 56 13 Q. And then in the remarks, right

 56 14 next to it, if you can see the remarks block,

 56 15 it says -- HPD -- the second line starts with:

 56 16 HPD Combat Arms Earplug.

 56 17 Do you see that?

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McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23) 10

 56 18 A. Okay.

57:12 - 59:14 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 57 12 Q. And so my question is, on what

 57 13 circumstances would a soldier get two of these

 57 14 forms filled out in the same day?

 57 15 MS. HUNT: Objection.

 57 16 Foundation.

 57 17 A. Why do you -- I don't -- I don't

 57 18 -- Okay. You have to --

 57 19 Q. Do you have an answer?

 57 20 A. Listen. This is what I see. The

 57 21 first one that you gave me is showing me that

 57 22 the soldier have a positive STS in the right

 57 23 ear, I think it was. Yes. The soldier came

 57 24 back and have a second test to make sure the

 57 25 shift is confirmed. Okay?

 58 1 Q. Okay.

 58 2 A. You have this test, and then you

 58 3 have the second on the other day. What is

 58 4 showing is that this -- this soldier do not

 58 5 have a shift. As a tech, what really matters

 58 6 for me here is that this soldier do not have

 58 7 another shift when he came the second time, and

 58 8 he already have a full eval the year before.

 58 9 And everything that you need have to be there.

 58 10 You're going to find everything that you're

 58 11 looking for in that full eval. That's what I

 58 12 see.

 58 13 That if they have -- That if the

 58 14 program is screening and put the earplugs, or

 58 15 in the other one, he might -- I don't remember

 58 16 how the program worked because it's screening.

 58 17 Q. Uh-huh.

 58 18 A. And one time, this program was

 58 19 down, and we have to put information. And let

 58 20 me tell you more. We are logging in, and the

 58 21 reason I was able to do my second test is the

 58 22 system is completely shut down. But because it

 58 23 was in the same computer, I was able to pull

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McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23) 11

 58 24 the information.

 58 25 Because it's a program that runs.

 59 1 That's maybe what you're seeing in here, that

 59 2 -- you have number 6 here, and you have -- if

 59 3 you don't have no number here, so many. But

 59 4 from the bottom of my heart, what you need to

 59 5 see is the full eval. That's what tell you.

 59 6 Q. Okay. So I just want to make

 59 7 sure I understand this. So a computer program

 59 8 would put into those blocks what type of --

 59 9 what type of hearing protection that the

 59 10 soldier was using?

 59 11 A. No. The computer will not do it.

 59 12 We have to do it. But I cannot tell you what

 59 13 circumstances. Because this program is a

 59 14 program working.

59:16 - 60:1 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 59 16 A. You asking me a question, what

 59 17 this soldier is using in this moment that this

 59 18 -- this computer -- this particular paper

 59 19 screening test says? Yes, that's what is over

 59 20 there when he came the first time.

 59 21 What I will tell you, you know

 59 22 where you can find what your hearing --

 59 23 protection he used? In the full eval.

 59 24 Q. Okay.

 59 25 A. It will give you all those

 60 1 details. Because that's a doctor.

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60:2 - 60:8 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 60 2 Q. Let me just ask you one more

 60 3 question about this. In the remarks section,

 60 4 it says that Combat Arms Earplug. If you

 60 5 issued him a Combat Arms Earplug on that day --

 60 6 A. No. No. I -- I don't remember

 60 7 the system -- how the system -- I need to be

 60 8 trained again.

62:3 - 62:9 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 62 3 So -- And I just want to look at

 62 4 that remarks section. And I just have one --

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 62 5 one question about this. Where it says:

 62 6 Combat Arms Earplug, does that refer to an

 62 7 earplug that you might have issued to the

 62 8 soldier that day?

 62 9 A. I do not remember.

63:12 - 63:16 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 63 12 Q. Okay. And as you noted, if we

 63 13 scroll up to near the top it says: Current

 63 14 audiogram. Date: 3 September 2014.

 63 15 Do you see that?

 63 16 A. Yes.

63:24 - 65:2 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 63 24 And then, again, in the type of

 63 25 personal hearing protection used, it says 7.

 64 1 Do you see that?

 64 2 A. Yes.

 64 3 Q. And so would this be the same

 64 4 situation where you don't recall what hearing

 64 5 protection the soldier would have been wearing

 64 6 when he came in?

 64 7 A. It's not that I don't remember.

 64 8 It's that I do not know where the information

 64 9 is coming from. I don't know. I don't

 64 10 remember.

 64 11 Q. Okay.

 64 12 A. What I see here is a program.

 64 13 Because that's what we do is screening. And

 64 14 what information the person have on that paper,

 64 15 what was happening in that moment, I don't

 64 16 remember. I really don't remember what -- that

 64 17 part -- how that part of the earplugs works.

 64 18 What I can see clear, that if you

 64 19 want to know what kind of earplugs the soldier

 64 20 use, you need to see the full evaluation,

 64 21 because that is a specialist, and it -- it goes

 64 22 over whatever a computer can do, in my case as

 64 23 a tech. That's what I see.

 64 24 I do not remember what is the

 64 25 numbers and what he use or do not use. If they

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McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23) 13

 65 1 fill out the form and it was here or who was

 65 2 here, I don't remember.

66:19 - 67:5 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 66 19 Q. I just want to ask you, where it

 66 20 says: HPD fit today, it doesn't necessarily

 66 21 mean -- So I want to make sure I understand.

 66 22 It doesn't necessarily mean you gave him -- fit

 66 23 him for earplugs. But does that mean someone

 66 24 fit him for earplugs in the office?

 66 25 A. It could mean that someone else

 67 1 fit him for earplugs; it can mean that he do

 67 2 not fill it out in his information; it could be

 67 3 that the system was not working. I don't

 67 4 remember how was -- and that part of the

 67 5 earplugs. I don't.

72:12 - 72:20 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 72 12 Q. Okay. I understand -- I

 72 13 understand that -- that we need to take a look

 72 14 at the full eval.

 72 15 But I just want to ask you this,

 72 16 just so I understand: Where it says Combat

 72 17 Arms Earplugs, and being as this was 2014, your

 72 18 understanding is that it probably would have

 72 19 been the newer Combat Arms?

 72 20 A. I do not know. I will not --

73:19 - 74:2 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 73 19 So where it says Combat Arms, is

 73 20 this -- is it correct to say that you aren't --

 73 21 you don't know, it could have been several

 73 22 different kinds of Combat Arms; is that

 73 23 correct?

 73 24 A. Could be.

 73 25 Q. It could -- It could have been

 74 1 the newer one; is that correct?

 74 2 A. Could be. I don't know.

75:8 - 75:17 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 75 8 I heard you say earlier that you

 75 9 don't remember Sergeant Camarillo. Is it safe

 75 10 to say that you don't remember any of the

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 75 11 visits he had with you?

 75 12 A. No, I don't remember his name.

 75 13 Q. And if Sergeant Camarillo

 75 14 testified that at the time he saw you he still

 75 15 had a pair of the double-ended earplugs he had

 75 16 been issued previously, do you have any reason

 75 17 to doubt that testimony?

75:21 - 76:4 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 75 21 A. If he has it, that's between you

 75 22 and him, I guess. If the earplugs exist.

 75 23 Q. And so along those lines, did you

 75 24 always issue hearing protection to soldiers --

 75 25 A. No.

 76 1 Q. -- or only if they needed it?

 76 2 A. No. I do not always issue

 76 3 hearing protections. That's -- That will be a

 76 4 fair statement.

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77:6 - 78:3 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 77 6 Q. So is it safe to say that on

 77 7 these forms, some of the information is

 77 8 accurate, maybe there were reasons why some of

 77 9 it might not be accurate; is that a fair

 77 10 statement?

 77 11 A. As a data, yes. No as the test.

 77 12 Because the computer does that -- the

 77 13 screening; you know, it's something that the

 77 14 computer just does. But the information when

 77 15 the system was down or the paper that was

 77 16 filled on the front, especially the part with

 77 17 earplugs, yes, it could not be accurate,

 77 18 because it's -- it's fair to say that this

 77 19 soldier was test twice. No, the soldier was

 77 20 not test twice in a day, I am sure about that.

 77 21 That the system could be down and there was a

 77 22 bunch of people, I don't remember those times,

 77 23 because we test so many people.

 77 24 What I see that he saw an

 77 25 audiologist, and that was a major part of the

 78 1 screening. If somebody lose their hearing,

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 78 2 they need to be taken care. That's why you

 78 3 screen.

80:3 - 81:4 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 80 3 Q. And if we can zoom in on the

 80 4 remarks box. I think it's box F.

 80 5 A. Okay.

 80 6 Q. Ms. McKissick, I wanted to ask

 80 7 you, it looks on this form, to me like whoever

 80 8 inputted the information, they may have run out

 80 9 of room in the form, if that makes sense,

 80 10 because there's a sentence: I am aware of a

 80 11 change in my hearing and the need to.

 80 12 Is that something that would

 80 13 happen sometimes, in your experience dealing

 80 14 with these forms?

 80 15 A. I do not remember. Because this

 80 16 is --

 80 17 Q. Okay.

 80 18 A. The information that we see here,

 80 19 it's run -- it's -- it's already in the

 80 20 computer. If anything extra is put in, like,

 80 21 for example, that we put a note, I remember

 80 22 that you have to go somewhere and then you put

 80 23 a note.

 80 24 But this information over here is

 80 25 going by the data entry that you put, and then

 81 1 when you do the hearing test, it came out. And

 81 2 that's -- That's why I'm not able to help you

 81 3 because I have not used the system. I don't

 81 4 remember what was where.

81:5 - 82:23 McKissick, Margaret (2021-04-23)

 81 5 Q. Fair enough. And I really just

 81 6 wanted to ask, you know, if Sergeant Camarillo

 81 7 was reporting tinnitus that day, is it possible

 81 8 that might not have made it on the form?

 81 9 A. You got a good point, and I like

 81 10 it.

 81 11 It not make it on the form, I can

 81 12 really not answer that question. Because

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 81 13 that's, again, as if -- as the test work, if he

 81 14 got tinnitus, you will see that tinnitus in the

 81 15 full eval. And that's where I go back. What

 81 16 -- What I'm seeing in here is the soldier that

 81 17 is losing hearing, and we need to know what's

 81 18 going on in here because it's just on a

 81 19 screening.

 81 20 As you can see that he got a

 81 21 positive STS, he got this test with this

 81 22 numbers very inflated. Do I know what is going

 81 23 on? No. Did I know that something is not

 81 24 right because those numbers? Yes.

 81 25 I'm looking at it that he have a

 82 1 full eval, because it was done manually, and he

 82 2 needs to come back to see what it say. It was

 82 3 somebody moving around him, because we have so

 82 4 many people around it? I -- Those things can

 82 5 happen on this screening. Because the

 82 6 screening is that you just screen what's going

 82 7 on, and if we have to make a next step, that's

 82 8 what significant shift happen.

 82 9 When you see those numbers, you

 82 10 need to come back. And when the soldiers came

 82 11 back, because it's a full eval, that's when you

 82 12 can see that this second test do not have

 82 13 tinnitus. Did he put tinnitus or not? I do

 82 14 not remember, because he have to fill the form.

 82 15 And if he do not fill the whole form, it will

 82 16 not make it there.

 82 17 But if you want to know if the

 82 18 tinnitus exist, you go by the audiology tech --

 82 19 I mean the audiologist that is a doctor, and

 82 20 all the information, and that's medical

 82 21 records. This is just a program that screen

 82 22 soldiers. You need to go to medical records.

 82 23 That's the best thing to see either of them.

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Defense Objections

Defense Counters

Plaintiff Objections

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Designation Preserved Objections Previous 

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New Objections Rulings

12:21 - 12:23 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 12 21 Would you mind stating your full name for the

 12 22 record?

 12 23 A. David Rosario-Rivera.

13:7 - 13:16 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 13 7 You understand that you are here

 13 8 today as a result of a lawsuit filed by

 13 9 Sgt. Camarillorazo against the 3M Defendants?

 13 10 A. Yes.

 13 11 Q. Do you have an independent

 13 12 recollection of Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 13 13 A. I remember him.

 13 14 Q. Okay. And have you communicated with

 13 15 him at all about his lawsuit or this deposition?

 13 16 A. No.

17:18 - 17:25 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 17 18 Q. All right. So Dr. Rosario, would you

 17 19 mind sort of walking me through your educational

 17 20 background, starting with college?

 17 21 A. College. I completed a bachelor's in

 17 22 psychology from the University of Puerto Rico, 

then

 17 23 completed a master's in psychology from Carlos

 17 24 Albizu University in Puerto Rico and completed my

 17 25 doctorate from the same university.

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18:9 - 18:18 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 18 9 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And so after you

 18 10 completed your master's and doctorate, where did

 18 11 you go next?

 18 12 A. I did my one-year internship at the

 18 13 Berkshire Farm in Canaan, New York. That is a --

 18 14 technically a juvie, but it is a halfway home for

 18 15 troubled youth. I finished that, went back to work

 18 16 in the Department of Corrections in Puerto Rico.

 18 17 And in 2009, I started working in the Department 

of

 18 18 Defense at Fort Hood.

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18:19 - 18:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 18 19 Q. So you have been at Fort Hood since

 18 20 2009; is that right?

 18 21 A. Yes, ma'am.

18:23 - 19:5 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 18 23 What was your first role when you

 18 24 joined Fort Hood in 2009?

 18 25 A. I was a clinical supervisor in the

 19 1 substance abuse program, formally called ASAP, 

Army

 19 2 Substance Abuse Program. And in 2014, December

 19 3 2014, I took the position of clinical psychologist

 19 4 with the Embedded Behavioral Health Team for

 19 5 3rd Brigade, 1st Cav Division.

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19:12 - 19:23 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 19 12 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And so I want to

 19 13 focus specifically on your role starting in 2014.

 19 14 A. Yes.

 19 15 Q. Can you talk to me a little bit about

 19 16 what your day-to-day role looked like?

 19 17 A. We treat -- we are a -- (inaudible)

 19 18 clinic for the service members attached to the

 19 19 3rd Brigade. What we do is we receive them. We 

do

 19 20 triage. That is a short assessment why they are

 19 21 seeking our services. We then assign them

 19 22 supervisors. Me personally, I do individual

 19 23 psychotherapy and psychological assessments.

19:24 - 20:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 19 24 Q. So when you say that you assign them

 19 25 to providers, are you one of the providers that

 20 1 would --

 20 2 A. Yes.

 20 3 Q. -- get an assignment for an

 20 4 individual patient?

 20 5 A. Yes, ma'am.

 20 6 Q. Okay. And has that been true from

 20 7 the entire time from 2014 up until present?

 20 8 A. Yes, ma'am.

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 20 9 Q. So as a provider, can you give me a

 20 10 high level view of what your responsibilities in

 20 11 that role are?

 20 12 A. Our mission at the clinic is to treat

 20 13 the service members to be fit for duty, fit for the

 20 14 mission of the brigade. That can take the form of,

 20 15 again, individual psychotherapies. And depending

 20 16 on whatever modality we choose that fits for the

 20 17 patient, we also have group sessions. We also have

 20 18 other programs that are on the base. But that is

 20 19 our clinic in a nutshell, is individual and group

 20 20 psychotherapy, along with a psychiatrist that we

 20 21 have.

20:22 - 21:6 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 20 22 Q. I believe you said that one of your

 20 23 missions is to treat service members to be fit for

 20 24 duty. Is there a particular criteria that you are

 20 25 looking for or trying to establish in order to

 21 1 permit this service member to be fit for duty?

 21 2 A. It depends on an individual and his

 21 3 mission readiness, depending on what the individual

 21 4 brings to the table. He brings us his concerns.

 21 5 We work with them to see how we can restore them 

to

 21 6 be mission ready.

21:7 - 21:19 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 21 7 Q. That makes sense. In the course of

 21 8 your career as a provider, how many service 

members

 21 9 do you think you have seen?

 21 10 A. Oh, wow. I cannot put a number

 21 11 there. I can tell you that right now I have

 21 12 seventy-two, seventy-three assigned service

 21 13 members.

 21 14 Q. So needless to say, it is a pretty

 21 15 active -- you have had a pretty active role in

 21 16 the --

 21 17 A. Yeah.

 21 18 Q. -- programs prior to now?

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 21 19 A. Yes.

21:20 - 22:13 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 21 20 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. So we

 21 21 have been talking about your notes a little bit,

 21 22 but I think what would make sense is if I could

 21 23 mark those --

 21 24 A. Sure.

 21 25 Q. -- as an exhibit. So this will be

 22 1 Camarillorazo Exhibit 29.

 22 2 (Exhibit 29 was marked for

 22 3 identification.)

 22 4 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And I have in

 22 5 front of me -- I want to make sure we are looking

 22 6 at the same thing, Dr. Rosario, so I have in front

 22 7 of me a document that is a hundred and forty-eight

 22 8 pages long that we received from --

 22 9 A. Okay.

 22 10 Q. -- Maj. Wald. Is that the same thing

 22 11 or is that the same page length that you are

 22 12 referring to when you talk about --

 22 13 A. Yeah, those are all my notes.

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22:19 - 22:23 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 22 19 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) So, first of

 22 20 all, the first question is, are these notes that

 22 21 you have written in the course of your treatment of

 22 22 Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 22 23 A. Yes.

22:24 - 23:24 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 22 24 Q. And as I said, this is an

 22 25 approximately -- not approximately. This is a

 23 1 hundred-and-forty-page -- forty-eight-page 

document

 23 2 of all of the notes that you have taken of

 23 3 Sgt. Camarillorazo. And is this your complete file

 23 4 of your notes?

 23 5 A. That is all my notes.

 23 6 Q. And are these notes that are, in your

 23 7 view, sort of regularly maintained in the course of

 23 8 your treatment as -- of Sgt. Camarillorazo?

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 23 9 A. Yep.

 23 10 Q. All right. So what I want to do is

 23 11 just start with Page 1. And I promise we won't go

 23 12 through every single page. But if you look at

 23 13 Page 1, at least on my version, it says, "Patient

 23 14 Camarillorazo, Guillermo, date 14 December 

2017."

 23 15 Is that what yours says?

 23 16 A. Yes. 11:13 Central time, yes.

 23 17 Q. Correct. So I guess my first

 23 18 question would be, is this the first date on which

 23 19 you personally saw Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 23 20 A. That is right.

 23 21 Q. And do you recall the purpose of your

 23 22 first appointment with him?

 23 23 A. He was in processing from Fort

 23 24 Benning, Georgia, and he was establishing care.

25:2 - 25:16 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 25 2 Q. Okay. And so in your initial

 25 3 in-processing appointment during this time, what

 25 4 would be your typical practice with a patient like

 25 5 Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 25 6 A. We -- the service member comes into

 25 7 our clinic, completes the Behavioral Health Data

 25 8 Portal Survey. Then he meets with a provider. We

 25 9 review what he is coming towards our clinic for and

 25 10 we assign him a provider.

 25 11 Q. And in this circumstance, were you

 25 12 assigned as Sgt. Camarillorazo's provider?

 25 13 A. Yes, ma'am.

 25 14 Q. All right. So if we can turn to

 25 15 Page 5 of Camarillorazo Exhibit 29.

 25 16 A. Yes, ma'am.

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25:20 - 26:16 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 25 20 All right. On Page 5 of the

 25 21 document, it says "CC/background" about --

towards

 25 22 the very bottom of the page. Do you see that?

 25 23 A. Yes, ma'am.

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 25 24 Q. And it says here, "The patient

 25 25 reports the following problems/difficulties. I

 26 1 just PCS from Fort Benning, Georgia to Fort Hood,

 26 2 and I was being seen for not sleeping, anger issues

 26 3 and depression." Do you see that?

 26 4 A. Yes, ma'am.

 26 5 Q. And is this something that

 26 6 Sgt. Camarillorazo reported to you at the time of

 26 7 your appointment?

 26 8 A. That is what he writes in the survey,

 26 9 and that is what -- that's kind of like what the

 26 10 provider sees as he is -- the patient's

 26 11 self-report.

 26 12 Q. I see. So this CC/Background on

 26 13 Page 5 of Exhibit 29 is something that

 26 14 Sgt. Camarillorazo filled out, and then you

 26 15 eventually see that. Is that right?

 26 16 A. Yes.

26:17 - 26:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 26 17 Q. When you met with Sgt. Camarillorazo

 26 18 in December of 2017, did you talk about at all what

 26 19 he thought were the causes of these issues?

 26 20 A. No. That is in-processing. It is a

 26 21 brief assessment.

26:24 - 27:10 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 26 24 I guess, then, if you are not getting

 26 25 into sort of the details of a particular patient's

 27 1 care, what kinds of things do you discuss during

 27 2 the in-processing portion of meeting with him?

 27 3 A. In-processing -- yeah, in-processing

 27 4 we ask where you are coming from, what services 

are

 27 5 you receiving, is there safety concerns with, I

 27 6 mean, threat to self, threat to others, of abuse

 27 7 and medications, if he is on any sort of medication

 27 8 that needs to be refilled or that he is going to be

 27 9 running out of before he can meet the provider.

 27 10 That is what we address.

27:11 - 27:16 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08) Re: [27:11-27:16] SUSTAINED

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 27 11 Q. Okay. So in-processing is sort of

 27 12 getting a high level background and then next steps

 27 13 or next appointments would get into a more 

detailed

 27 14 discussion about what the patient needs or things

 27 15 like that?

 27 16 A. Yes, ma'am.

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27:18 - 27:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 27 18 At any point in your treatment of

 27 19 Sgt. Camarillorazo, did you discuss his sleeping

 27 20 problems, anger issues and depression?

 27 21 A. Yes, ma'am.

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28:12 - 29:12 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 28 12 Q. If that makes sense. Okay. So

 28 13 during the time that you met with

 28 14 Sgt. Camarillorazo, did you come to develop an

 28 15 understanding of what you viewed as the causes of

 28 16 his sleeping problems, anger issues or depression?

 28 17 A. Yes, ma'am.

 28 18 Q. And can you describe for me what your

 28 19 assessment was as to the causes of those particular

 28 20 issues?

 28 21 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 28 22 A. Exposure to combat, trauma.

 28 23 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Can you describe

 28 24 what you mean by that?

 28 25 A. Repeated exposure to traumatic

 29 1 experiences in combat or situations where the

 29 2 individual is on a hypervigilant state of constant

 29 3 threat or the sense that he feels he has to be on

 29 4 vigilance for constant threat.

 29 5 Q. Are there any other causes, as far as

 29 6 you understand sitting here today, that you would

 29 7 attribute to these particular conditions that

 29 8 Sgt. Camarillorazo is experiencing?

 29 9 MS. HUNT: Object to form,

 29 10 foundation. It is okay. You can answer.

 29 11 A. Okay. No. Constant exposure to

 29 12 trauma, to combat scenarios.

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29:13 - 30:1 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 29 13 Q. All right. If you can please turn to

 29 14 the next page, Page 6, there's a section that says,

 29 15 "History of present illness."

 29 16 Do you see that?

 29 17 A. Yes, ma'am.

 29 18 Q. In your practice, in your care of

 29 19 Sgt. Camarillorazo, is this -- is the history of

 29 20 present illness something that you would write or

 29 21 something --

 29 22 A. I write that.

 29 23 Q. Okay. And do you write that based on

 29 24 your interactions with the patient here, Sgt.

 29 25 Camarillorazo?

 30 1 A. Yes, ma'am.

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30:2 - 30:24 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 30 2 Q. Okay. And so I want to turn your

 30 3 attention to the first sentence, and I'll read it

 30 4 for the record.

 30 5 It says, "Service member attending

 30 6 session for in-processing. Patient indicates

 30 7 seeking services for support related to spouse

 30 8 relationship and mood management. Indicates

 30 9 history of complicated relationship between them,

 30 10 in part due to alleged infidelity, but indicated

 30 11 that as of lately communication has gotten worse

 30 12 (her not wanting to address issue)."

 30 13 Do you see that?

 30 14 A. Yes, ma'am.

 30 15 Q. And so without getting too bogged

 30 16 down into the details, can you sort of give me your

 30 17 understanding of what were the complications in 

the

 30 18 relationship between Sgt. Camarillorazo and his

 30 19 wife?

 30 20 A. Yeah. I mean, he expressed that his

 30 21 wife had been unfaithful, and he -- she lived in

 30 22 Texas. He was in Fort Benning. He is coming now

 30 23 to Texas. And that was one of the issues he was

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 30 24 facing. So he was stressed about that.

30:25 - 31:12 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 30 25 Q. It says here that it "indicated as of

 31 1 lately communication has gotten worse. (Her not

 31 2 wanting to address issue.)"

 31 3 Do you have an understanding of what

 31 4 you meant by that when you put that in that record?

 31 5 A. He -- that he mentioned that she was

 31 6 not willing to try, do couples therapy or whatever

 31 7 works.

 31 8 Q. So the breakdown in communication,

 31 9 then, was a lack of actually having a discussion

 31 10 about certain of these problems that they were

 31 11 having. Is that a fair statement?

 31 12 A. Yeah.

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31:14 - 31:19 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 31 14 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) So was there

 31 15 anything else, in your view, based on your care of

 31 16 Sgt. Camarillorazo, that was contributing to their

 31 17 lack of communication?

 31 18 MS. HUNT: Object to form.

 31 19 A. I cannot speak for her.

31:20 - 34:1 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 31 20 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Fair enough.

 31 21 Can you speak to anything that Sgt.

 31 22 Camarillorazo would have told you about any other

 31 23 issues with their communication during the course

 31 24 of your treatment of him?

 31 25 A. The only thing was that he was

 32 1 willing to try to save the marriage, but he felt

 32 2 that she wasn't.

 32 3 Q. All right. If you turn to Page 7,

 32 4 there is an entry that says, "TBI/concussion

 32 5 screen."

 32 6 A. Yes.

 32 7 Q. What does that mean?

 32 8 A. That's part of the survey that the

 32 9 service member completes. So it says, "Positive

 32 10 screen." It means that he was endorsed.

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 32 11 Q. What do you mean by he endorsed the

 32 12 TBI --

 32 13 A. He endorsed -- he endorsed incidents

 32 14 related to TBI.

 32 15 Q. All right. So I just want to make

 32 16 sure I understand this correctly.

 32 17 A. Uh-huh.

 32 18 Q. So, this -- first of all, the TBI

 32 19 concussion screen entry in Exhibit 29 on Page 7,

 32 20 that is based on something that Sgt. Camarillorazo

 32 21 had filled out prior to coming to see you?

 32 22 A. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, the initial

 32 23 survey.

 32 24 Q. Okay. And so when there's a positive

 32 25 screen answered in a record like the one that we're

 33 1 looking at here, that means that the patient has

 33 2 indicated that there are potential TBI or

 33 3 concussion events from his past; is that correct?

 33 4 A. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

 33 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall, in the course

 33 6 of your treatment of Sgt. Camarillorazo, what those

 33 7 potential TBI or concussion events were?

 33 8 A. No. We did not work on that. That's

 33 9 not my area.

 33 10 Q. Okay. Why is it that the TBI

 33 11 concussion screen is something that you look out

 33 12 for when you're treating a patient like Sgt.

 33 13 Camarillorazo?

 33 14 A. I mean, because if the individual has

 33 15 received an injury to the head, it can impact his

 33 16 functioning. That's why in that portion,

 33 17 particularly says the -- referred to primary care

 33 18 provider.

 33 19 Q. Is there concern -- strike that.

 33 20 Is one of the reasons that someone

 33 21 like you, in the course of your treatment, would be

 33 22 interested in knowing about a TBI or concussion

 33 23 screen because it could have an impact on potential

 33 24 behavioral health issues that the particular

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Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08) 12

 33 25 patient is experiencing?

 34 1 A. Yeah, definitely.

34:3 - 34:13 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 34 3 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And so under

 34 4 what circumstances, in your practice, would you

 34 5 refer someone to primary care like you did here

 34 6 with Sgt. Camarillorazo for a TBI concussion

 34 7 screen?

 34 8 A. Anytime that the individual reports

 34 9 that they've been exposed to.

 34 10 Q. And in your experience, what type of

 34 11 events have you seen that a patient would typically

 34 12 report as a TBI or a concussion-type injury that

 34 13 warrants being referred to a provider?

35:7 - 35:17 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 35 7 A. Common events, I mean, being blown

 35 8 up, exposure to IEDs, improvised explosive devices.

 35 9 Accidents with rollover vehicles. Those are --

 35 10 incoming mortars, explosions.

 35 11 Q. And so recognizing that, you know, a

 35 12 further evaluation of TBI is not something that you

 35 13 necessarily did with Sgt. Camarillorazo, do you

 35 14 recall ever discussing events like those that you

 35 15 described, you know, IEDs or accidents or things of

 35 16 that nature with Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 35 17 A. Not that he had mentioned.

37:16 - 37:22 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 37 16 Q. Okay. All right. So if you can

 37 17 please turn to Page 13 of Camarillorazo Exhibit 29.

 37 18 Do you see at the top there, it says the patient,

 37 19 "Camarillorazo Guillermo," and the date is 

December

 37 20 26th, 2017 at 8:45 CST?

 37 21 Do you see that?

 37 22 A. Yes, ma'am.

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 37 23 Q. And is that the next time, as far as

 37 24 you know, that you saw Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 37 25 A. Yes, ma'am.

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38:1 - 38:20 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 38 1 Q. All right. If we can turn to Page

 38 2 17.

 38 3 And just for your information,

 38 4 Dr. Rosario, at the bottom right-hand corner

 38 5 there's something that we call a Bates stamp that

 38 6 has some page numbering, so I might refer to those

 38 7 page numbers to sort of orient you as we go

 38 8 throughout the document.

 38 9 A. Okay.

 38 10 Q. All right. So do you see -- or are

 38 11 you at Page 17?

 38 12 A. Yes, ma'am.

 38 13 Q. All right. And there's a section

 38 14 that says, "Subjective."

 38 15 Do you see that?

 38 16 A. Uh-huh.

 38 17 Q. And is this something, again, that

 38 18 you wrote in the course of your treatment of Sgt.

 38 19 Camarillorazo?

 38 20 A. Yes, ma'am.

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38:21 - 39:5 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 38 21 Q. All right. And it says here under,

 38 22 "Subjective," "Service member attended session

 38 23 after in-processing and having meds refilled.

 38 24 Patient indicates spouse relationship continues to

 38 25 deteriorate. He elaborated abundantly on the

 39 1 relationship history, which evidences a very

 39 2 dysfunctional pattern of infidelities (from both),

 39 3 but started to deteriorate after his deployments."

 39 4 Do you see that?

 39 5 A. Uh-huh.

39:6 - 39:8 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 39 6 Q. Do you have an understanding --

 39 7 A. Yes.

 39 8 Q. Great.

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 39 12 You wrote here that the relationship

 39 13 started to deteriorate after Sgt. Camarillorazo's

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 39 14 deployment; is that right?

 39 15 A. Yes.

39:18 - 39:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 39 18 Do you know which particular

 39 19 deployments these issues started to crop up for --

 39 20 in their relationship, for lack of a better word?

 39 21 A. No, ma'am.

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39:23 - 40:1 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 39 23 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Did Sgt.

 39 24 Camarillorazo give you any further detail about,

 39 25 you know, the general time frame of when these

 40 1 particular issues started to arise?

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 40 6 A. Cumulative of his deployments.

 40 7 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) All right. So

 40 8 it's not necessarily one particular deployment,

 40 9 just over time the accumulation of the

 40 10 deployments --

 40 11 A. Yes, ma'am.

 40 12 Q. -- sort of led to this?

 40 13 Okay. In the course of your

 40 14 treatment of Sgt. Camarillorazo, did he ever

 40 15 describe any hearing-related issues were a cause of

 40 16 any distress in his relationship with his wife?

 40 17 A. No, ma'am.

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40:20 - 41:14 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 40 20 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) All right. And

 40 21 in the second-to-last sentence of this paragraph in

 40 22 Camarillorazo Exhibit 29, it says, "We discussed

 40 23 current symptoms and stressors and explored 

coping

 40 24 strategies to provide relief from depression and

 40 25 anxiety" system -- "symptoms."

 41 1 I just want to ask: Do you recall,

 41 2 at this time, what the particular stressors were in

 41 3 Sgt. Camarillorazo's life?

 41 4 A. Well, the predominantly one was the

 41 5 spouse relationship.

 41 6 Q. Okay. Any others related to any of

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Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08) 15

 41 7 his work or things like that?

 41 8 A. I mean, at the moment of

 41 9 in-processing, the main thing was the spouse

 41 10 relationship.

 41 11 Q. And at some point, did that change

 41 12 over time that there were additional --

 41 13 A. Yes, ma'am.

 41 14 Q. -- stressors? Okay.

41:15 - 41:17 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 41 15 A. Yes.

 41 16 Q. And we'll get into those a little bit

 41 17 later.

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 41 18 Okay. So I want to turn to your next

 41 19 appointment with Sgt. Camarillorazo. If you could

 41 20 please turn to Page 21 of Exhibit 29.

 41 21 A. Okay.

 41 22 Q. And you see here this is an

 41 23 appointment that is dated January 3rd, 2018.

 41 24 A. Yes, ma'am.

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 41 25 Q. And so the next time you saw Sgt.

 42 1 Camarillorazo would have been on January 3rd, 

2018,

 42 2 correct?

 42 3 A. Yes, ma'am.

42:4 - 42:18 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 42 4 Q. All right. And if you can flip to

 42 5 Page 25, there's another section that says,

 42 6 "Subjective." And if you would just let me know

 42 7 when you're there.

 42 8 A. Okay. Got it.

 42 9 Q. All right. And as with the other

 42 10 sections we've looked at, is this a section of the

 42 11 medical records that you wrote based on your

 42 12 impressions of Sgt. Camarillorazo during your

 42 13 appointments?

 42 14 A. Yes, ma'am.

 42 15 Q. All right. And in the third sentence

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 42 16 in, it says, "Today he elaborated abundantly on

 42 17 deployment-related events that have had an impact

 42 18 on his life."

42:19 - 43:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 42 19 And so without getting too steeped

 42 20 into the details, can you describe, at a high

 42 21 level, as far as you recall, what certain of those

 42 22 events were?

 42 23 A. Being fired at, being exposed to

 42 24 combat missions, and as in almost every service

 42 25 member, is losing peers.

 43 1 Q. You said "being fired at"?

 43 2 A. Uh-huh.

 43 3 Q. Did you get any understanding of the

 43 4 regularity with which that happened?

 43 5 A. No, ma'am.

 43 6 Q. Did he give you any details

 43 7 surrounding the circumstances in which he was fired

 43 8 at?

 43 9 A. Combat missions. Combat missions

 43 10 where you take fires.

 43 11 Q. Did he give you any sense of the

 43 12 number of combat missions that he had done during

 43 13 his deployment?

 43 14 A. Not a -- not a specific number.

 43 15 Q. Okay. All right. And then you have

 43 16 a sentence here that says, "He opened up today

 43 17 about his latest deployment to Afghanistan and how

 43 18 he intensified the hypervigilance sense by spending

 43 19 almost nine months living in a tent made out of

 43 20 plastic and being on constant vigilance for threats

 43 21 (being fired at)."

43:22 - 44:9 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 43 22 So I want to stop there really quick.

 43 23 A. Yes, ma'am.

 43 24 Q. First of all, is that something that

 43 25 you wrote?

 44 1 A. I wrote that, yes.

 44 2 Q. And that's based on something that

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 44 3 Sgt. Camarillorazo told you; is that right?

 44 4 A. Yes, ma'am.

 44 5 Q. All right. And do you recall any

 44 6 other details about Sgt. Camarillorazo's living

 44 7 conditions during the nine months that he was in

 44 8 Afghanistan?

 44 9 A. No, ma'am.

44:10 - 47:13 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 44 10 Q. Okay. Did he tell you anything

 44 11 about, you know, any nearby air fields or other

 44 12 things like that in the surrounding location or

 44 13 anything about the geography at all?

 44 14 A. Other than what is written there.

 44 15 Q. Okay. In the next sentence, it says,

 44 16 "along with being exposed to the loud noise of an

 44 17 airplane landing at the same time every day (4:00

 44 18 a.m.) which was decisive in his hearing loss."

 44 19 And, again, that's something that you

 44 20 wrote, correct?

 44 21 A. I wrote that, yeah.

 44 22 Q. And that's based on what Sgt.

 44 23 Camarillorazo told you?

 44 24 A. Yes, ma'am.

 44 25 Q. Other than what is written here, do

 45 1 you have any other details about the landing of

 45 2 airplanes during his time while he was deployed in

 45 3 Afghanistan?

 45 4 A. No, ma'am, other than what I wrote

 45 5 there.

 45 6 Q. Fair enough.

 45 7 And then, in the clause where you

 45 8 write, "which was decisive in his hearing loss," is

 45 9 what you're saying here that, according to Sgt.

 45 10 Camarillorazo --

 45 11 A. Yes, ma'am.

 45 12 Q. -- the noise -- sorry.

 45 13 Let me ask that again.

 45 14 So when you say here, "which was

 45 15 decisive in his hearing loss," is what you're

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 45 16 writing, that according to Sgt. Camarillorazo, the

 45 17 noise of the airplane landing was decisive in his

 45 18 hearing loss?

 45 19 A. Yes, ma'am. I'm not an audiologist.

 45 20 Yes.

 45 21 Q. Fair enough.

 45 22 Do you know, in the course of your

 45 23 treatment of Sgt. Camarillorazo, how he had come 

to

 45 24 learn that the landing of the airplane was decisive

 45 25 in his hearing loss?

 46 1 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 46 2 A. So, from the service members, they go

 46 3 through periodical or annual studies, physical

 46 4 studies, and one of them is hearing loss. Not

 46 5 hearing loss, the hearing test.

 46 6 So he believed that that experience,

 46 7 for the nine months, was decisive in his loss --

 46 8 into his hearing loss.

 46 9 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And it's your

 46 10 understanding that that was his belief, based on

 46 11 what he went through --

 46 12 A. Uh-huh.

 46 13 Q. During like an annual audiogram, to

 46 14 sort of inform that decision?

 46 15 A. Yeah. I mean, you will have to talk

 46 16 to his audiologist.

 46 17 Q. Sure. And recognizing you are not an

 46 18 audiologist, and I don't want to have you diagnose

 46 19 his hearing loss here today, I guess, my question

 46 20 is more targeted on your interactions with Sgt.

 46 21 Camarillorazo.

 46 22 A. Okay.

 46 23 Q. And so, I guess, my question really

 46 24 is: When you spoke to Sgt. Camarillorazo, was it

 46 25 your understanding, based on your discussions, that

 47 1 he sort of had this annual audiogram when he got

 47 2 back from Afghanistan, and then sort of deduced

 47 3 that his hearing loss was due to this airplane?

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 47 4 MS. HUNT: Object to the form.

 47 5 A. I guess he -- I guess he associated

 47 6 it to it, to that experience.

 47 7 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Okay. And other

 47 8 than what's written here, did you have any further

 47 9 discussions about any noise or weapon fire or

 47 10 anything else that he experienced while he was in

 47 11 Afghanistan?

 47 12 A. No, ma'am. Other than that, that's

 47 13 what he relayed.

47:20 - 48:2 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 47 20 Q. Did you ever discuss whether any

 47 21 hearing-related injuries he had had any effect on

 47 22 his behavioral health?

 47 23 A. No, ma'am.

 47 24 Q. Did Sgt. Camarillorazo ever talk to

 47 25 you about a condition called tinnitus or tinnitus?

 48 1 A. Not here explicitly. I can infer,

 48 2 but, no.

48:11 - 48:13 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 48 11 Is it true that he never told you

 48 12 that he had a condition of tinnitus or ringing in

 48 13 the ears?

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 48 15 A. He did not verbalize that to me.

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48:17 - 49:15 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 48 17 right. So I want to switch to your next

 48 18 appointment with Sgt. Camarillorazo, which is on

 48 19 March 9th, 2018 -- or, actually, it's not your next

 48 20 appointment, but it's in another appointment you

 48 21 had with him. And so if you could turn to Page 41.

 48 22 A. Okay.

 48 23 Q. All right. And so do you see here at

 48 24 the top of Page 41 of Exhibit 29, it's dated March

 48 25 9th, 2018?

 49 1 A. Yes, ma'am.

 49 2 Q. All right. If you could turn to the

 49 3 next page, it is -- again, there's a "Subjective"

 49 4 component.

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 49 5 A. Yeah.

 49 6 Q. And, again, under the "Subjective"

 49 7 component, this is your writing down, you know, 

the

 49 8 substance of your appointment with Sgt.

 49 9 Camarillorazo.

 49 10 A. Yes.

 49 11 Q. Okay. And here it says, "We

 49 12 processed continued current work stressors that saw

 49 13 at least seven of his units SM seek BH."

 49 14 And is "BH" here behavioral health?

 49 15 A. Yes, ma'am.

49:16 - 51:2 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 49 16 Q. Do you recall, in March of 2018, what

 49 17 particular work stressors that were affecting Sgt.

 49 18 Camarillorazo and his unit as a whole?

 49 19 A. Increased exercises for missions.

 49 20 THE REPORTER: I couldn't understand

 49 21 that.

 49 22 A. Increased exercises for missions.

 49 23 THE REPORTER: Thank you.

 49 24 A. Preparedness.

 49 25 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Thank you.

 50 1 And can you explain what those

 50 2 exercises entailed to the -- as far as you know?

 50 3 A. I mean, he's a tanker, so it involves

 50 4 maintenance and preparation of those tanks for the

 50 5 field exercises or gunnery exercises that are

 50 6 performed before any rotation.

 50 7 Q. As far as you know, would he, you

 50 8 know, after maintenance and preparation of the

 50 9 tanks, then go participate in the field exercises?

 50 10 A. Yes.

 50 11 Q. And do you have any knowledge as to

 50 12 sort of what the field exercise would entail during

 50 13 the actual exercise?

 50 14 A. No. No, ma'am.

 50 15 Q. Do you have an understanding of why

 50 16 the increased exercises for combat missions

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 50 17 resulted in particular stressors for Sgt.

 50 18 Camarillorazo?

 50 19 A. Maintenance of vehicles, maintenance

 50 20 of the tanks. If they don't get the tanks ready,

 50 21 the exercises get delayed and that's big, big

 50 22 pressure.

 50 23 Q. Okay. That makes sense.

 50 24 Did you ever talk about, at this

 50 25 time, any noise exposures that Sgt. Camarillorazo

 51 1 had during these field exercises or preparation?

 51 2 A. No, ma'am.

51:3 - 52:24 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 51 3 Q. Okay. All right. If we can turn to

 51 4 now Page 67.

 51 5 And, Dr. Rosario, if you wouldn't

 51 6 mind letting me know when you're there.

 51 7 A. Oh, yeah. I'm there.

 51 8 Q. Oh, okay. Perfect. All right. So

 51 9 you see here that it says -- this is an appointment

 51 10 for August 22nd, 2018?

 51 11 A. Yes, ma'am.

 51 12 Q. And if you could turn then to Page

 51 13 71.

 51 14 A. Uh-huh.

 51 15 Q. And there's a "Subjective" section

 51 16 again. And is it fair to say that this is

 51 17 something that you wrote based on your 

interactions

 51 18 with Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 51 19 A. Yes, ma'am.

 51 20 Q. Okay. And I want to turn to the

 51 21 second sentence, which says, "He verbalized and

 51 22 portrayed as feeling tired due to continued demands

 51 23 from work, which is very evident, given his rank

 51 24 and MOS in the brigade."

 51 25 So what do you mean by "it is very

 52 1 evident given his rank and MOS in the brigade"?

 52 2 A. He's a sergeant first class, so he's

 52 3 high in the ranking structure for enlisted

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 52 4 soldiers, in any unit. And his MOS is 91 Alpha.

 52 5 That's an Abrams tank mechanic.

 52 6 So, I mean -- and the unit he is

 52 7 assigned to is basically in charge of maintenance

 52 8 of all those tanks that the brigade uses for the

 52 9 exercises in the deployment.

 52 10 Q. And that makes sense. The next

 52 11 sentence says, "The unit has been at field

 52 12 exercises almost nonstop since July 2018."

 52 13 Are those the same field exercises

 52 14 that we referred to in the last record?

 52 15 A. Yes, ma'am.

 52 16 Q. And as with the last record, do you

 52 17 have any knowledge of the types of exercises or the

 52 18 types of activities that they were doing during the

 52 19 exercises?

 52 20 A. No details.

 52 21 Q. Okay. No information about any

 52 22 particular noise exposures during those exercises?

 52 23 A. You can only infer, but no specific

 52 24 verbalizations of that.

53:4 - 53:14 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 53 4 Q. All right. Let's turn to -- well,

 53 5 actually, before we turn to that, is there any

 53 6 other detail you have about the field exercises,

 53 7 other than what's written in this record on Page 71

 53 8 of Exhibit 29?

 53 9 A. No.

 53 10 Q. Okay. All right. Let's turn to Page

 53 11 77, please.

 53 12 And if you wouldn't mind letting me

 53 13 know when you're there.

 53 14 A. Okay.

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53:15 - 53:20 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 53 15 Q. All right. And you see that this is

 53 16 a record that is dated September 19th, 2018?

 53 17 A. Yes, ma'am.

 53 18 Q. Okay. And if we could please turn to

 53 19 Page 81 of that same record.

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 53 20 A. Okay.

54:14 - 55:8 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 54 14 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) So recognizing

 54 15 that, you know, throughout the records, it says,

 54 16 you know, a short-term goal is to finalize the

 54 17 divorce with his wife, from your treatment of Sgt.

 54 18 Camarillorazo, was it considered a healthy step

 54 19 forward in his behavioral health to move on from

 54 20 his relationship with his wife?

 54 21 A. That was one of the goals he -- he

 54 22 determined as a goal, so, yes.

 54 23 Q. Okay. Okay. Let's turn to Page 85,

 54 24 please.

 54 25 A. Okay.

 55 1 Q. All right. And this is a record from

 55 2 October 23rd, 2018, correct?

 55 3 A. Yes.

 55 4 Q. All right. And if we can turn then

 55 5 to Page 89, we'll again look at a subjective record

 55 6 of --

 55 7 When you get there.

 55 8 A. Okay.

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 55 9 Q. All right. And so as with the other

 55 10 subjective entries that we've seen, this is

 55 11 something that you wrote in the course of your

 55 12 treatment of Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 55 13 A. Yes, ma'am.

 55 14 Q. Okay. And in the second sentence it

 55 15 says, "He opened up about deployment trauma

 55 16 experienced over ten years ago and was able to

 55 17 engage it and was observed as not too affected by

 55 18 it, but impacted by reminiscence."

 55 19 And so my question is: Do you recall

 55 20 what any of those particular events were?

 55 21 A. He -- give me a second. That day,

 55 22 he -- yeah. That day, he was able to talk about

 55 23 the combat deployment experiences. And when he

 55 24 says he was able to engage it and was observed not

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 55 25 too affected by but impacted by the reminiscence is

 56 1 that he -- you don't see the physical reaction, but

 56 2 you do see the -- kind of like the empty look

 56 3 when -- or like the spaced out when he's

 56 4 remembering the event. You don't see, for example,

 56 5 it's not like he's breaking down, crying by

 56 6 remembering the trauma. But you can see the

 56 7 impact, like this long pause, and the solemn look.

 56 8 Q. Okay. And speaking more specifically

 56 9 to the events, were any of these events that he

 56 10 described related to any particular noise exposures

 56 11 during a combat mission or anything like that?

 56 12 A. No.

 56 13 Q. Were they related to any weapons fire

 56 14 or IEDs or anything of that nature?

 56 15 A. Exchange of fire, yes.

 56 16 Q. And did he describe, in that session,

 56 17 you know, the extent to which he was engaged in

 56 18 fire during the course of his deployments?

 56 19 A. Not too abundantly.

 56 20 Q. Okay. Did he give any other details

 56 21 about the exchange of fire during the course of

 56 22 your treatment of Sgt. Camarillorazo?

 56 23 A. Not too detailed.

57:13 - 58:1 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 57 13 Okay. So we talked about this a

 57 14 little bit earlier with respect to the record,

 57 15 talking about Sgt. Camarillorazo's hearing loss due

 57 16 to airplanes. But other than in that instance, you

 57 17 don't recall ever discussing hearing loss with Sgt.

 57 18 Camarillorazo; is that right?

 57 19 A. No, ma'am -- yes, no, ma'am.

 57 20 Q. Did you ever discuss, at all, whether

 57 21 his hearing loss impacted him in any way?

 57 22 A. No, ma'am.

 57 23 Q. Did you ever discuss, at all, how his

 57 24 hearing loss would have impacted his relationship

 57 25 with his wife?

 58 1 A. No, ma'am.

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58:3 - 58:6 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 58 3 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Did he ever tell

 58 4 you that his hearing loss impacted his relationship

 58 5 with his wife?

 58 6 A. No, ma'am.

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 58 10 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Did he ever

 58 11 describe how his hearing loss impacted any of his

 58 12 behavioral health issues that he came to address

 58 13 with you?

 58 14 A. No, ma'am.

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 58 16 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) Did he ever tell

 58 17 you that his hearing loss impacted any of the

 58 18 behavioral health issues that he came to address

 58 19 with you?

 58 20 A. No, ma'am.

 58 21 Q. As far as you recall, did Sgt.

 58 22 Camarillorazo wear hearing aids during your

 58 23 sessions?

 58 24 A. I cannot recall that.

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 59 1 And you have seen Sgt. Camarillorazo

 59 2 for approximately two years?

 59 3 A. Yeah. Yeah. The length of those

 59 4 notes, yeah.

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 59 8 From December 2017 until

 59 9 approximately September 2019, Sgt. Camarillorazo

 59 10 was your patient, correct?

 59 11 A. Yes, ma'am.

 59 12 Q. Okay. And during that entire

 59 13 two-year period, other than the time he mentioned

 59 14 the airplanes landing, you all did not discuss his

 59 15 hearing loss, correct?

 59 16 A. No, ma'am.

 59 17 Q. Okay. And during the entire two-year

 59 18 period during which you saw Sgt. Camarillorazo, 

he

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 59 19 never mentioned to you that he had a ringing in his

 59 20 ears?

 59 21 A. No, ma'am.

59:23 - 60:3 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 59 23 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And during that

 59 24 entire two-year period in which you saw Sgt.

 59 25 Camarillorazo, he never told you that his tinnitus

 60 1 or ringing in his ears impacted his behavioral

 60 2 health, correct?

 60 3 A. No, ma'am.

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 60 5 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And during the

 60 6 entire two-year period during which you saw Sgt.

 60 7 Camarillorazo, he never discussed whether his

 60 8 tinnitus impacted his relationship with his wife,

 60 9 correct?

 60 10 A. No, ma'am.

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 60 12 Q. (BY MS. OZUROVICH:) And during this

 60 13 entire two-year period, did he ever mention any

 60 14 ways in which his tinnitus impacted him?

 60 15 A. No, ma'am.

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62:6 - 62:21 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 62 6 Q. (BY MS. HUNT:) And I believe we took

 62 7 a look at this document earlier with defense

 62 8 counsel. I just wanted to take another look at

 62 9 that subjective section.

 62 10 In this note, it appears that you --

 62 11 that you discussed him being tired due to continued

 62 12 demands from work, which is very evident given 

his

 62 13 rank and MOS.

 62 14 A. Uh-huh.

 62 15 Q. Did I read that correctly?

 62 16 A. Yep.

 62 17 Q. And based on that comment, is it

 62 18 accurate to say that, in your experience, Sgt.

 62 19 Camarillorazo was hard-working and committed to 

his

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 62 20 job?

 62 21 A. Yes.

63:1 - 63:12 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 63 1 Q. (BY MS. HUNT:) Later in this same

 63 2 note, you say that "he continues to endorse an

 63 3 attitude of pushing through, but it has been very

 63 4 evident by his demeanor that he will be

 63 5 experiencing a physical and emotional burnout if he

 63 6 does not put more emphasis on his health and

 63 7 setting boundaries." Did I read that reasonably

 63 8 correctly?

 63 9 A. Yes, ma'am.

 63 10 Q. Is it a fair statement based on your

 63 11 experience that at times Sgt. Camarillo prioritized

 63 12 his job over his own health and emotional state?

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 63 16 A. Over his health? Yeah.

 63 17 Q. Would you say that he was determined

 63 18 to continue doing his job, even if it was hard for

 63 19 him?

 63 20 A. Yes.

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 64 11 Q. (BY MS. HUNT:) Was not complaining

 64 12 part of that attitude of pushing through?

 64 13 MS. OZUROVICH: Same objection.

 64 14 A. Not complaining? No. He did

 64 15 complain.

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65:19 - 65:25 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 65 19 Q. (BY MS. HUNT:) Yeah. Is it fair to

 65 20 say during this visit when Sgt. Camarillo was

 65 21 talking to you about his hearing loss that his

 65 22 hearing loss seemed to bother him?

 65 23 A. It did bother him. He brought it up.

 65 24 Q. Okay. Do you remember anything about

 65 25 how he said it bothered him?

66:1 - 66:4 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 66 1 A. He mentioned that he -- he mentioned

 66 2 this experience that he had for nine months and

 66 3 that he believed that that is what led to his

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 66 4 hearing loss.

66:19 - 67:2 Rosario-Rivera, David (2021-02-08)

 66 19 Q. (BY MS. HUNT:) I think we covered

 66 20 this earlier, but it is safe to say that you don't

 66 21 have any formal training in audiology?

 66 22 A. Oh, no, ma'am.

 66 23 Q. And if Sgt. Camarillo was diagnosed

 66 24 with tinnitus, there's nothing you know that would

 66 25 cause you to dispute that diagnosis?

 67 1 MS. OZUROVICH: Object to the form.

 67 2 A. No, ma'am.

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