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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + REGIONAL STANDARDS ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + MEETING** 

**+ + + + WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 13, 2014** 

**+ + + + The Working Group convened in Room**  **8E-089, U.S. Department of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, D.C., at**  **9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, facilitator, presiding.**  **PRESENT NEIL EISNER, Facilitator**  **TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand**  **RAY ELLIS Lincoln Electric Cooperative GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned**  **Utilities JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation**  **SCOTT HARRIS, Harris, Wiltshire & Grannis LLP**  **GLENN HOURAHAN, Air Conditioning Contractors of America**  **DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy Commission (via telephone)**  **MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc. KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company**  **ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy**  **General Counsel**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls **ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an**  **Energy-Efficient Economy AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and**  **Refrigeration Institute CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling**  **Contractors National Association DAVE WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises, LLC** 

**ALSO PRESENT ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy**  **DAVID CALABRESE, Daikin Corporation DAN COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy**  **KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric Cooperative Association**  **LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of Energy**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox International, Inc. DANIEL LAPATO, American Public Gas**  **Association PAUL LIN, Regal-Beloit Corporation**  **CHARLES MCCRUDDEN, ACCA JONATHAN MELCHI, HARDI**  **STEVEN ROSENSTOCK, EEI ERIC STAS, U.S. Department of Energy**  **DON SURRENA, National Association of Home Builders** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S Call to Order and Opening Remarks 5**  **Opening Remarks 6, 38 Neil Eisner**  **Facilitator Ethics Discussion 32**  **Introductions 43 Introduction of Facilitator 71**  **Establishment of Ground Rules for 73 the Negotiations** 

**Vote on Ground Rules 238 (Adopted)** 

**Development of Schedule for 238 Negotiation Meetings** 

**Discussion of Rulemaking Objectives 282 and Scope of Negotiations** 

**Scope of Negotiations 284**

**FTC Energy Value Label 284, 341**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Discussion of Rulemaking Objectives**  **and Scope of Negotiations (Continued)**  **Scope of Negotiations (Continued) R22, Dry Ship Equipment Under 288**  **Regional Standards Available Documents and Resources 290**  **352 Definitions 293**  **Enforcement Actions 294 What Information Does the Working 315**  **Group Need from the Department of Energy**  **Internet Sales 335 Tools of Enforcement 338**  **Such as Databases Waiver for Large Equipment 352**  **Prioritization of Scope Discussion 359 List** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 9:11 a.m.**  **3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning.**  **4 My name is Ashley Armstrong. I**  **5 work here at the Department.**  **6 I would like to welcome you to our**  **7 negotiations for regional standards**  **8 enforcement of central air conditioners.**  **9 We see a lot of familiar faces in**  **10 the room. So, we are happy that you are back.**  **11 We see some new faces, and we welcome you to**  **12 participate.**  **13 Sitting next to me on my left is**  **14 Neil. He is our facilitator. He also did the**  **15 facilitation for the commercial cert reg neg**  **16 that we did last year. And that ended up**  **17 quite well, at least from the Department's**  **18 perspective. So, we are hoping we have a**  **19 similar result here.**  **20 Just logistical things. I think**  **21 most of you are familiar with DOE and how this**  **22 all works. But bathrooms are around the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 corner. Wear you badge at all times while you**  **2 are in the building at least, and you can wear**  **3 it outside the building if you really want to.**  **4 It is a fashion statement; come on.**  **5 And then, downstairs is the**  **6 cafeteria and straight down all the way in the**  **7 basement is Dunkin' Donuts for anyone that**  **8 needs more caffeine for the negotiations.**  **9 But, with that, I am going to turn**  **10 it all over to Neil.**  **11 Thank you all for coming and**  **12 participating with the Department. If you**  **13 have any questions, feel free to let us know,**  **14 either through the ASRAC email box or you can**  **15 email myself or Neil.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Thank you, Ashley.**  **17 And it is kind of scary when I**  **18 realize I know people around the table also.**  **19 I hope they all have some good things to say**  **20 about the process the last time, because, from**  **21 my perspective as the neutral, I thought it**  **22 worked very, very well.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I did go through some documents**  **2 before these meetings started, such as looking**  **3 at the transcript of the meeting that you had**  **4 in 2011, I think it was, to talk about this**  **5 issue. It looks like it is complex, but there**  **6 is always room for compromise. There is**  **7 always room for discussion.**  **8 I want to start off by talking a**  **9 little bit about the negotiated rulemaking**  **10 process. Some of you have been through it**  **11 before, so maybe it will be a refresher; some**  **12 of you have not. I want to talk about how it**  **13 works and how you can use it most effectively.**  **14 Don't hesitate to stop me if you have got**  **15 questions as I am talking about it, making my**  **16 points.**  **17 Regulatory negotiation is when an**  **18 agency decides, for a variety of reasons we**  **19 will touch upon, that it would be appropriate**  **20 to convene an advisory committee made up of**  **21 people who can represent the interests**  **22 affected by the issue the agency is concerned** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about.**  **2 I say "issue" rather than**  **3 "rulemaking" because one thing you can**  **4 sometimes decide is that rulemaking is not**  **5 necessary, that we can handle this through**  **6 some other method, some other action by the**  **7 agency.**  **8 But you represent affected**  **9 interests. You don't represent the person or**  **10 the company for whom you work. You represent**  **11 the interests, needs similar to yours.**  **12 And you come to the table trying**  **13 to negotiate a proposed rule, if a proposed**  **14 rule is necessary, or some other solution to**  **15 the problem. The agency doesn't start out by**  **16 putting something on the table. The agency**  **17 starts out by saying we have something we have**  **18 to resolve, either because of a statutory**  **19 mandate or problem we are having in compliance**  **20 with existing rules, or whatever.**  **21 In the case with the agency I came**  **22 from, the Department of Transportation, when** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I worked there, we looked at mainly safety**  **2 issues. If accidents were going up or**  **3 accidents weren't decreasing enough, we might**  **4 convene a group like this to say, "What should**  **5 we do? What do you think the solution is?"**  **6 It is a consensus process. We are**  **7 getting consensus. It is not just you; it is**  **8 the interest that you represent that you want**  **9 to speak for.**  **10 Why is it used by agencies? Well,**  **11 the APA process itself, the Administrative**  **12 Procedure Act process of notice and comment,**  **13 rulemaking, can be adversarial, partly because**  **14 the agency is putting out a proposal. So, the**  **15 tendency upon the participants in the**  **16 rulemaking process is to defend their interest**  **17 or to protect their interest by making sure**  **18 the agency doesn't do something that will hurt**  **19 it or won't work well for it, and to try to**  **20 get the agency to do things that will allow it**  **21 to effectively respond to the requirements.**  **22 And then, they are kind of protecting your** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 interests.**  **2 In the negotiated rulemaking**  **3 process you are trying to solve a problem with**  **4 the agency. You are trying to sit down and**  **5 say, okay, what will work best for all of us?**  **6 That may mean you have to give a little bit to**  **7 get something from the other side, but they**  **8 will go and give something, then, to get what**  **9 you want.**  **10 Some people would complain that**  **11 that means you are going to go with the lowest**  **12 common denominator. And I come from the**  **13 safety area. It doesn't mean the lowest**  **14 common denominator.**  **15 When you are setting a rule, you**  **16 oftentimes have an area in which you can write**  **17 that rule. You can set the standard here and**  **18 something else over here and something else**  **19 over here that all together works out to do**  **20 what you want it to do.**  **21 But maybe the agency is going to**  **22 say this ought to be higher or this ought to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be lower, but you could do it the other way**  **2 around if you achieve the same level of safety**  **3 or the same level of energy efficiency. The**  **4 agency doesn't always know what that is. The**  **5 agency needs input from everybody.**  **6 And that is another thing about**  **7 negotiated rulemaking. This is a much more**  **8 effective process. We are talking about the**  **9 issues rather than putting something in**  **10 writing or coming into a public hearing that**  **11 agencies will occasionally hold, when you say**  **12 your five or ten minutes, sit down, and**  **13 somebody else gets up and says five or ten**  **14 minutes.**  **15 We want to talk about things. We**  **16 want to solve things. We want people to**  **17 suggest ideas without having to be worried**  **18 about whether it is the ultimate solution for**  **19 them also.**  **20 As you start to talk around the**  **21 table, you don't want to argue, you don't want**  **22 to fight with each other. What you want to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 say is, "Why do you think that will work? Why**  **2 do you think that will be costly? Would you**  **3 be able to live with it if we did this or we**  **4 did that?" These are the kinds of discussions**  **5 you want to have, and you can do this in a**  **6 negotiated rulemaking process.**  **7 You still have to go through the**  **8 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking process. There**  **9 is nothing that allows the agency to waive the**  **10 requirements of the Administrative Procedure**  **11 Act. But experience has shown that you are**  **12 going to get a better rule through this**  **13 process, and you are going to get it faster**  **14 than you might normally get it, even though**  **15 you have added a step.**  **16 You are going to get better**  **17 compliance because you understand what the**  **18 rule is all about. You are going to have a**  **19 better idea of that when you walk away from**  **20 the table at the end because you helped to**  **21 draft it; you helped to decide what was going**  **22 to be in it. And you also have a better** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understanding of the problems the agency has.**  **2 One of the things that always**  **3 interested me in the beginning, when we first**  **4 started using negotiated rulemaking in the**  **5 government back in the early eighties, was the**  **6 opportunities for the industry to come up or**  **7 the public interest group to come up to the**  **8 agency representative and say, "Wow, I now**  **9 have a better idea of some of the issues and**  **10 problems you had in trying to write a rule**  **11 that would work well for everybody. I now see**  **12 how difficult it is. I have a better**  **13 perspective because I sat in the meeting and**  **14 I heard the concerns from different people. I**  **15 heard the problems they would have."**  **16 Even without consensus, you should**  **17 end up with a better rule in the end because,**  **18 if nothing else, the agency is going to learn**  **19 from the meetings. I again had that**  **20 experience through the Department of**  **21 Transportation, where we were not successful.**  **22 We couldn't even get everybody to stay at the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 table until the end of the negotiations.**  **2 And there were two very, very**  **3 interesting things that came out of that.**  **4 One, the person who had to work on the rules**  **5 said, "I learned a lot in this meetings, and**  **6 I will write things differently from the way**  **7 I would have before those meetings." And we**  **8 wrote a rule that was successful. It got out.**  **9 It was published. It got comment, and we**  **10 adopted a final rule from it.**  **11 Later on, I got a call about a**  **12 year later from a Committee staffer on the**  **13 Hill saying, "I want you to do regulatory**  **14 negotiation on this particular issue that the**  **15 Congress thinks needs to be resolved." And**  **16 she wanted to ask me some questions about.**  **17 And I said, "Wait. Who is asking you to do**  **18 the regulatory negotiation? Why do they want**  **19 us to do this?", because it was the same kind**  **20 of subject area as the one where some of the**  **21 people had walked out.**  **22 And she mentioned a bunch of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 interest groups. And I said, "But wait a**  **2 second. They are the ones who walked out of**  **3 the DOT's negotiated rulemaking on another**  **4 subject in this area two years ago."**  **5 And she said, "Oh, I know that and**  **6 they know that. They said they still like the**  **7 process. They thought it worked very well for**  **8 them in the end."**  **9 A lot of subtle things go on in**  **10 these negotiations. Walking out of a meeting**  **11 is intended sometimes to send a message. But**  **12 they still thought that they got a much better**  **13 rule than they would have gotten through the**  **14 regular process.**  **15 It may be costlier. It may be**  **16 more time-consuming. But, even then,**  **17 sometimes it is still going to result in a**  **18 better rule. And for the agency in the end**  **19 that means it is going to be a rule that is**  **20 easier to enforce. And for you, it is going**  **21 to be a rule that is easier to comply with.**  **22 There are times when we don't want** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to use it. It is not meant for all**  **2 rulemakings. For example, you may have a**  **3 fundamental interest for which you think the**  **4 Constitution protects your right to get**  **5 something. You are not going to sit around a**  **6 table and compromise your constitutional**  **7 right.**  **8 So, for example, on an issue like**  **9 abortion, you wouldn't want to sit down with**  **10 the Department of Health and Human Services**  **11 and try to negotiate a rule governing**  **12 abortion, on when you could do it and when you**  **13 couldn't do it. You would probably never get**  **14 consensus. So, there are places where it**  **15 wouldn't work.**  **16 You want to make sure that you**  **17 have no more than about 25 people sitting**  **18 around the table. That is because people have**  **19 found, experts who have worked in the area**  **20 have found that, if you get too many people**  **21 sitting at a table, you never can end the**  **22 discussion. It just keeps going around and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 around and days go by before you get any**  **2 result from it. You have got to narrow it**  **3 down.**  **4 So, if the issue you are talking**  **5 about has so many different kinds of affected**  **6 interests that can't all be represented with**  **7 less than 25 people, you probably don't want**  **8 to negotiate a rule.**  **9 You want to have something that**  **10 has more than one issue. You want to have**  **11 room for compromise. You want to have room**  **12 for people to say things that they could trade**  **13 off.**  **14 A good example is if you work in**  **15 an area where you have got to worry about**  **16 fatigue, you worry about how many hours**  **17 someone can work before having a break or**  **18 before going home to get a night's sleep. We**  **19 did a lot of that at the Department of**  **20 Transportation, some successfully, some not so**  **21 successfully.**  **22 But you don't want the airlines,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for example, to say you have got to fly at**  **2 least ten hours on a given flight, on flights**  **3 in a given day, or I can't make money, and**  **4 have the airline pilots say, "We can't fly**  **5 more than eight hours. It is unsafe." And**  **6 then have the airlines say, "Well, how about**  **7 if we pay you more per hour. Can you fly ten**  **8 hours then?" That is not the kind of**  **9 compromise you want to make.**  **10 But you do want to make**  **11 compromises where, if somebody identifies an**  **12 easier way for people to comply with a safety**  **13 rule, that might be a more effective rule than**  **14 a higher safety standard because you won't**  **15 have as much noncompliance.**  **16 So, those are the kinds of things**  **17 you can think about. Those are the kinds of**  **18 things you want to talk about around the**  **19 table.**  **20 You have got to worry, of course,**  **21 about deadlines because deadlines keep people**  **22 focused on the result. Some people could come** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 into a negotiated rulemaking figuring every**  **2 day I can delay these proceedings is better**  **3 for my respective interest, for whatever**  **4 reason. So, a deadline is created.**  **5 We have a deadline here. We are**  **6 supposed to produce a final product by the end**  **7 of October. If it looks like we are not**  **8 making progress, but everybody around the**  **9 table agrees that we are making enough**  **10 progress to ask for more time, we can do**  **11 something like that.**  **12 How does it work? Well, very**  **13 simply, we start it today. You bring in some**  **14 neutral third party like me. You ask me to**  **15 facilitate the conversation. And that means**  **16 a bunch of things, and we will get into that**  **17 in a little bit more detail later on. But it**  **18 means that I try to help you negotiate.**  **19 We have got the Committee. We**  **20 have got the people around the table, and we**  **21 have got the impartial facilitator. If we are**  **22 successful, we will have a proposed rule to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 put out at least ready to go back to DOE to**  **2 put the finishing touches on and to send**  **3 through OMB, put out and put in The Federal**  **4 Register for notice and comment and**  **5 rulemaking.**  **6 And usually, as I said, you can**  **7 have a shorter comment period if you get**  **8 fewer, less-adverse comments because we have**  **9 been through this process. We have heard from**  **10 representatives of all the interests. We**  **11 should be pretty close to on target. And**  **12 experience has shown that is generally the way**  **13 the agencies go in negotiations.**  **14 We start off, the first thing we**  **15 will be doing today is talking about the**  **16 procedures. I was always fascinated by issues**  **17 when they try to resolve, get a peace treaty**  **18 out of the Vietnam War.**  **19 A lot of experts will tell you the**  **20 most difficult issue is the shape of the table**  **21 for the negotiators in terms of who is**  **22 primary, who is not primary in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 discussions, what role you play. And they**  **2 spend a lot of time negotiating the shape of**  **3 the table. Hopefully, this is okay for you,**  **4 but, if necessary, we will rearrange it.**  **5 But, once you start to work out**  **6 the procedures, you will see why that is**  **7 important, because we are going to talk, among**  **8 other things, about what is consensus of this**  **9 group; what does it mean. But we are also**  **10 going to talk about procedural things like how**  **11 often do we want to meet; how many days do we**  **12 want to meet; what hours do we want to meet.**  **13 We want everybody to make sure they are**  **14 comfortable with the process before we get**  **15 into the substance.**  **16 Some people wonder about the**  **17 authority. Technically, the Administrative**  **18 Procedure Act does not preclude an agency from**  **19 using a negotiating rulemaking process before**  **20 it starts the rulemaking. Agencies have**  **21 always had the authority under the**  **22 Administrative Procedure Act to do it. But** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some agencies were a little concerned that**  **2 they didn't have specific authority, even**  **3 though it had been used by a number of**  **4 agencies in the eighties and early nineties.**  **5 In the 1990s, Congress passed the**  **6 Negotiated Rulemaking Act, the basic**  **7 parameters for effective processes for**  **8 negotiated rulemakings, such as the number of**  **9 people who should be sitting at the table, the**  **10 use of conveners and facilitators, those types**  **11 of things.**  **12 It is not, however, binding. It**  **13 does allow an agency to try other processes.**  **14 So, again, it is something we should keep in**  **15 mind. It is something we should consider.**  **16 But, if we have good reason for doing**  **17 something differently, we can.**  **18 We also have no exception from**  **19 another statute, the Federal Advisory**  **20 Committee Act. So, pursuant to the Federal**  **21 Advisory Committee Act, the government cannot**  **22 meet with more than one person from outside** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the government with the objective of getting**  **2 consensus from the group. I can meet with**  **3 each one of you if I am a government employee.**  **4 I can ask each one of you what do you think,**  **5 but I can't ask you, as a group, can you reach**  **6 consensus, unless I charter you as an advisory**  **7 committee.**  **8 And by the way, generally subject**  **9 to the Federal Advisory Committee Act, some**  **10 agencies, or at least one that I know of, in**  **11 particular, there is a special statute that**  **12 exempts them from the Federal Advisory**  **13 Committee Act and establishes other**  **14 procedures.**  **15 But we are under the Federal**  **16 Advisory Committee Act, and someone will be**  **17 coming in in a little while to talk to us**  **18 about some of the requirements there in terms**  **19 of compliance with that statute and some other**  **20 responsibilities.**  **21 The other important thing to**  **22 remember -- and a lot of people ask questions** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about this -- why whatever we all agree to in**  **2 this room cannot be simply signed by the**  **3 agency and put in The Federal Register. And**  **4 that is because the agency does not have the**  **5 legal authority to delegate its responsibility**  **6 to a committee made up of people outside the**  **7 government. The Secretary has the authority**  **8 to make decisions; the Committee does not.**  **9 The agency sends a very strong**  **10 message -- and I am not aware of there ever**  **11 being any problems -- when it says, unless we**  **12 discover legal problems with the consensus**  **13 approach, we will publish this rule. We have**  **14 to go through OMB, but OMB understands the**  **15 requirements. They understand the importance**  **16 of doing what the Committee has achieved**  **17 through consensus.**  **18 And you have got someone sitting**  **19 at the table representing, not him, not the**  **20 General Counsel's Office, but representing the**  **21 Department of Energy. And Doug has the**  **22 responsibility of going in and making sure** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that all the appropriate people in the**  **2 Department are constantly briefed on what is**  **3 going on, what the issues are, and making sure**  **4 that he has the authority to resolve it, in**  **5 particular, what he thinks appropriate or he**  **6 is told to resolve.**  **7 So, he, just like you, you are all**  **8 expected to go back to others involved in your**  **9 interest group, and some of them may be**  **10 sitting in this room; some of them you may**  **11 contact by phone. And we will talk a little**  **12 bit about that in a few seconds.**  **13 The one thing I do want to stress**  **14 again is OMB. The agency usually lets OMB**  **15 know that it is going to use negotiated**  **16 rulemaking. And when I was at the Department**  **17 of Transportation, we would tell them, "You**  **18 can come to the meeting. You can get**  **19 briefings from us, whatever you want. But**  **20 when we send the document to you, we expect**  **21 that it will be cleared, and it will be**  **22 cleared quickly. You will not be saying," as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you know -- (laughter) -- yes, people know**  **2 that.**  **3 I remember once I had a problem,**  **4 and they said, "Well, we don't think the**  **5 industry fully appreciated the cost this is**  **6 going to have on them." I said, "You have to**  **7 be kidding me. The industry has agreed to**  **8 what we have put in front of you, and you want**  **9 to go back and tell them you know better than**  **10 they do?" And he says, "Yes, you've got a**  **11 good point."**  **12 So, you have got to keep in mind**  **13 that they are there. And the laughter comes**  **14 I am sure from Scott because, if we get into**  **15 an election year, strange things happen.**  **16 We have never been able to figure**  **17 out, when I was in the government -- maybe you**  **18 have figured it out since then -- whether it**  **19 is an election year or it is the effect that**  **20 it is a year in which the Olympics occur that**  **21 causes the problem, but strange things we see.**  **22 So, all the more reason for resolving matters** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 here before presidential elections, before we**  **2 get into a presidential election.**  **3 Okay, three key points I want to**  **4 make:**  **5 First of all, good-faith**  **6 participation. You are all here with a**  **7 commitment to negotiate in good faith. One of**  **8 the important things to remember is you are**  **9 not, as I said earlier, representing your**  **10 employer or your interest group or your**  **11 manufacturer. You are representing everybody**  **12 who shares the interest in common with you.**  **13 Generally, in well-organized**  **14 industries generally you know what is going**  **15 on. You have got representatives from those**  **16 types of groups.**  **17 To give you an example again in**  **18 the area I worked in, for example, the first**  **19 regulatory negotiation we did involved an FAA**  **20 rulemaking in the Department of**  **21 Transportation. There were three unions that**  **22 represented flight attendants. There were at** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 least two unions that represented pilots. We**  **2 didn't have to have each one at the table, but**  **3 the representative who was at the table had to**  **4 work with each of those unions. The other**  **5 unions had people in the room. They could**  **6 lean over somebody's shoulder and say, "Let's**  **7 take a break. We want to talk to you about**  **8 where this is going."**  **9 You can do this in a variety of**  **10 ways. You can keep in contact with the people**  **11 you think share your interest or you know**  **12 share your interest. You can email them. You**  **13 can talk to them on the phone. You can have**  **14 conference calls. You can have meetings with**  **15 your interest groups. Whatever it is that you**  **16 have got to do, you want to make sure you are**  **17 representing them.**  **18 Most of the time -- and I found**  **19 this in the last one I did for DOE -- you know**  **20 what those interests are; you know what they**  **21 want; you know what the concerns are, or you**  **22 can clear it up in a few minutes.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Bring all the issues to the table.**  **2 That is point No. 2. Don't hold back on some**  **3 issues, like you might do in rulemaking.**  **4 Don't fail to share information that will help**  **5 people reach a conclusion. You want to bring**  **6 the issues here.**  **7 You do not want to bring the**  **8 issues elsewhere if you are unhappy with what**  **9 you are hearing in this room. If you have got**  **10 problems with what is going on, you express it**  **11 at the table. If you have problems with what**  **12 is going on that you don't think you can**  **13 express at the table, you can come to me and**  **14 we can talk about it.**  **15 You don't go to the Secretary of**  **16 Energy; you don't go to the Office of**  **17 Management and Budget; you don't go to other**  **18 branches of the government and say, "I'm not**  **19 happy with the way the negotiations are**  **20 working. I think you need to intervene by**  **21 doing something."**  **22 This happened, again, in the first** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 negotiated rulemaking that we did. It**  **2 happened with a very powerful interest. They**  **3 thought they could just sit there and bide**  **4 their time and they were so powerful they**  **5 could get what they wanted. And they suddenly**  **6 realized people were working together around**  **7 the table; people were resolving things. And**  **8 they got worried.**  **9 They went to the Administrator.**  **10 We had a third-party professional mediator out**  **11 there who worked for one of the government**  **12 agencies that handles mediation and big**  **13 disputes. And he had settled at that time the**  **14 first -- but I now have to say "the first" to**  **15 make sure it is clear -- the first baseball**  **16 strike. So, he had a very, very good**  **17 reputation.**  **18 And he said to that party, "Do not**  **19 do that again. If you ever go around my back**  **20 and go to someone," in that case with the**  **21 Administrator, "and go around my back, I will**  **22 throw you off this Committee. And I will be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 happy to go public and explain why I threw you**  **2 off the Committee."**  **3 So, I am not threatening anybody.**  **4 I don't want to do that. I just want to tell**  **5 you the process works. There are lots of**  **6 ways. If you are troubled by what is going on**  **7 in the meeting, make sure you talk to me first**  **8 and we will figure out what to do.**  **9 You have said you will be here in**  **10 good faith. You have said that you will**  **11 negotiate the issues at the table.**  **12 Consensus, I also want to point**  **13 out, means listening to others. I have said**  **14 that before. It means compromise sometimes.**  **15 Those are your judgment calls to make. You**  **16 can say, "Well, look, you know, I see where**  **17 you're going. I see what the issue is. I can**  **18 live with what you want here. Can you help me**  **19 with another issue?" We will get more into**  **20 this when we talk about consensus and the**  **21 ground rules.**  **22 MS. HYMER: My name is Tina Hymer.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I am from the General Counsel's Office.**  **2 Are there people on the phone**  **3 (referring to having to use a microphone)?**  **4 MR. EISNER: For the transcript.**  **5 MS. HYMER: Oh, okay. Thank you.**  **6 Okay, sorry for all that (referring to the**  **7 fact she had begun to speak without using a**  **8 microphone).**  **9 Good morning, everybody.**  **10 My name is Tina Hymer again. I am**  **11 from the General Counsel's Office. I am the**  **12 Deputy Assistant General Counsel for Standards**  **13 of Conduct, which is a long title. I oversee**  **14 the Ethics Group. I also provide guidance on**  **15 the Federal Advisory Committee Act to various**  **16 different offices here at the Department.**  **17 And I was asked to come today just**  **18 to talk a little bit about FACA and some of**  **19 the things to make you aware of, which it**  **20 sounds like some of the things that you have**  **21 already been discussing.**  **22 The big thing for this is that you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are operating as a subcommittee of a parent**  **2 committee of a FACA that we have here, which**  **3 basically means that all of the advice and**  **4 recommendations that this subcommittee will**  **5 provide will all go up to the parent**  **6 committee.**  **7 And that is really important**  **8 because that is what gives you the flexibility**  **9 to meet without your meetings being noticed in**  **10 The Federal Register. It allows you to have**  **11 discussions via conference calls or even over**  **12 email or webinars. So, there is a little bit**  **13 more flexibility.**  **14 But it is really important to keep**  **15 in mind that everything that this subcommittee**  **16 develops has to go up through the full parent**  **17 committee. And that is what allows us, again,**  **18 that is what allows us that flexibility.**  **19 Also, too, with that said, any**  **20 information that you have or documents that**  **21 are presented to you, if those things are**  **22 going to be provided or cited in your report** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that ultimately goes up to the parent**  **2 committee, those may at some point become**  **3 public.**  **4 So, anything that you are using**  **5 just as background information or as documents**  **6 to help inform you on a particular topic, if**  **7 you don't want that to become public, you are**  **8 going to keep that as background information.**  **9 You are not going to cite to it in the report**  **10 or that is going to go to the public because,**  **11 again, the law says, the Federal Advisory**  **12 Committee Act says, that anything is presented**  **13 or prepared for or by an advisory committee**  **14 can be made available to the public. And we**  **15 do withhold some things via the exemptions in**  **16 FOIA, but, ultimately, those things are going**  **17 to be, those things that are presented to the**  **18 full committee will be made public at some**  **19 point.**  **20 So, that is something to keep in**  **21 mind, too, when you are sharing information**  **22 amongst the group here. If it is ultimately** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to get cited, it could at some point**  **2 become public.**  **3 Dan just left.**  **4 Those are basically, for the**  **5 purposes of this committee, you are all here**  **6 -- you are not, with the exception of --**  **7 actually, you are all here as representatives.**  **8 So, you are not subject to the conflict-of**  **9 interest rules like some of Scott's colleagues**  **10 on the parent committee, who are appointed as**  **11 special government employees. They are**  **12 subject to some of the conflict-of-interest**  **13 rules, just like I am.**  **14 But, as representatives, you are**  **15 here representing the viewpoints of your**  **16 industries, of your companies. And so, you**  **17 are not subject to those rules. We expect**  **18 your comments to be biased in some way**  **19 because, again, like I said, you are**  **20 representing a viewpoint. So, you are not**  **21 going to be subject to those rules.**  **22 But does anybody have any other** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 questions about in terms of the Federal**  **2 Advisory Committee Act or how things will**  **3 operate?**  **4 (No response.)**  **5 No?**  **6 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald**  **7 from the Department of Energy. I want to make**  **8 a couple of things clear.**  **9 So, everyone has a microphone in**  **10 front of you. Push the button to turn it on**  **11 before you speak. Say your name for the**  **12 record because the transcript will have your**  **13 name before it. So, at all times do those**  **14 things.**  **15 When you done speaking, push the**  **16 button and the microphone will turn off. That**  **17 will stop you from being recorded when you**  **18 don't want to be heard with what you are**  **19 saying.**  **20 So, please keep those things in**  **21 mind.**  **22 Folks who are listening on a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 webinar, so that folks want to hear what you**  **2 are saying, too. So, making clear who you are**  **3 will help them.**  **4 And also, for the people on the**  **5 webinar, please keep your phone mute so we**  **6 don't hear you accidentally while you are**  **7 talking.**  **8 Harvey?**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: I am Harvey Sachs**  **10 from ACEEE.**  **11 I appreciate your efforts, but**  **12 wonder if you perhaps have the authority to**  **13 get the AV system fixed. It is now three**  **14 years, I think, that I have been listening to**  **15 that hum.**  **16 (Laughter.)**  **17 MS. HYMER: This is Tina.**  **18 Unfortunately, they didn't teach**  **19 me that in law school, unless I would be happy**  **20 to.**  **21 (Laughter.)**  **22 But I think we can get in touch** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the facilities folks.**  **2 MEMBER SACHS: Ma'am, none of us**  **3 expects lawyers to fix anything.**  **4 (Laughter.)**  **5 MS. HYMER: Ohhh. I work very**  **6 hard to try to make sure that you all stay out**  **7 of trouble.**  **8 MR. EISNER: No questions for**  **9 Tina?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 Thank you.**  **12 Okay, the final point I want to**  **13 make is to focus on fixing the problem. I**  **14 talked at this at my first negotiated**  **15 rulemaking at DOE a year and a half or so ago.**  **16 And I was very pleasantly surprised with how**  **17 well I thought it worked. And some of the**  **18 participants in this group were there then.**  **19 Don't attack when people make a**  **20 point. Ask questions. Learn to ask questions**  **21 because you are here to bring out information,**  **22 so you can see how you can fix the problem.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, if somebody says, "I think it is going to**  **2 very, very expensive to do" such-and-such,**  **3 don't say, "That's crazy. It's not going to**  **4 be that expensive."**  **5 Ask them why they think it is**  **6 expensive or what data they have. Ask for**  **7 more information. Ask people questions. It**  **8 will bring out the information. It will also**  **9 keep people in a position where they are**  **10 working together.**  **11 The object here is for everybody**  **12 to agree to a final document, not for people**  **13 to consistently fight with each other it, but**  **14 to work out the solution to the problem. That**  **15 is why there is no proposal on the table.**  **16 So, you want to seek the common**  **17 ground. You want to think about possible**  **18 alternatives, and you want to think about ways**  **19 you can protect your interest without hurting**  **20 somebody else's.**  **21 If nothing else, even if we don't**  **22 achieve the success of agreeing to a document** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 at the end, it will bring out better**  **2 information that the agency will be able to**  **3 use more effectively to draft a rule on its**  **4 own, if it has to. But our objection is not**  **5 that. Our objective is to get consensus**  **6 around this table.**  **7 My job is to help with that**  **8 process. I am not here to make any decisions.**  **9 I am not here to push for a particular**  **10 decision. I have no benefit by whatever comes**  **11 out of this, other than maybe when I go out to**  **12 buy an air conditioning unit.**  **13 I am here to push you, however,**  **14 cajole you, work with you, try to get you to**  **15 figure out how to get to get to what you want,**  **16 to do a better job in listening, not to push**  **17 you to a particular decision, but to get you**  **18 to do a better job if I don't think you are**  **19 listening well, if I think you are being too**  **20 defensive, if I think you are not being**  **21 objective in your negotiation. I am not going**  **22 to do it in this room if I can avoid it. I am** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to stop you in the hallway and chat with**  **2 you for a few minutes.**  **3 That is what my job is, and it is**  **4 going to include Doug. It is going to include**  **5 anybody else from DOE who is at the table. I**  **6 am here to make sure you guys focus on**  **7 resolving the problem and not on arguing or**  **8 doing anything else.**  **9 I may ask questions myself. I may**  **10 say I don't understand something. I may say,**  **11 "Can you help me with this, so I can find out**  **12 whether maybe I can put a suggestion on the**  **13 table? You said you wanted X. You said you**  **14 wanted Y. How about X minus 1? Will that**  **15 work? Will that solve things?"**  **16 I am neutral. I can say, well,**  **17 maybe I can help here. Maybe I can throw out**  **18 some language that will work.**  **19 If appropriate, we can take breaks**  **20 if somebody wants it. We are going to have**  **21 regularly-scheduled breaks, but if somebody**  **22 wants to break 10 minutes after we start** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because they think it is important to have a**  **2 private conversation with one or two or three**  **3 people around the table, that's fine. Raise**  **4 your hand and say, "We'd like to take a break**  **5 so we can talk. We want to caucus." If you**  **6 need a room, we can find you a room in the**  **7 building where you can talk for whatever time**  **8 it takes to resolve your issues.**  **9 We can also schedule meetings**  **10 between our scheduled meetings of smaller**  **11 subgroups. They can be by phone. They can be**  **12 in person. Whatever you want, I can help. If**  **13 necessary, I can come to try to facilitate**  **14 some of those things.**  **15 There are lots of different things**  **16 I can do. Don't hesitate to help me. If you**  **17 think somebody is being difficult with you and**  **18 you think somebody is being obnoxious, again,**  **19 come to me first. See if I can help. See if**  **20 I can do something about it. See if I can**  **21 resolve it.**  **22 But the key thing I learned -- and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 it worked, I thought, very effectively the **2 last time -- is ask questions. Don't 3 challenge, don't object, don't fight. Just**  **4 ask questions. 5 Lots of times the person you are**  **6 asking the questions of will say, "You know, 7 I got it. There is a problem with this. Let**  **8 me think about it some more." 9 Any questions?**  **10 (No response.) 11 You know, one of the things I do**  **12 sometimes to achieve consensus is say, "Well, 13 nobody objects. I guess we have consensus."**  **14 So, everybody understands the 15 process? Everybody is ready to go?**  **16 Okay. I think the next thing on 17 our agenda is to introduce everybody. Why**  **18 don't we start with Harvey and go around the 19 table?**  **20 You can say a sentence or two on 21 why you are here at the table.**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: Good morning.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I look forward to working with all**  **2 of you.**  **3 I am Harvey Sachs from the**  **4 American Council for an Energy Efficient**  **5 Economy. I am one of the survivors of Neil's**  **6 last process and looking forward to this. I**  **7 am also one of those who participated in the**  **8 original negotiations that led to the regional**  **9 standards, and I see a couple of the other**  **10 perpetrators in the room as well.**  **11 We have a lot of work to do.**  **12 There are things we didn't think about at that**  **13 time, for which I bear some responsibility,**  **14 and let's fix it.**  **15 MEMBER BALLO: This is Tim Ballo**  **16 from Earthjustice.**  **17 Like Harvey, I couldn't imagine a**  **18 summer going by without spending a few weeks**  **19 in meetings discussing certification and**  **20 compliance issues for HVAC equipment.**  **21 Hopefully, you all will hear a lot**  **22 more from Harvey than from me.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Laughter.)**  **2 MEMBER HARRIS: My name is Scott**  **3 Harris. I am the former General Counsel of**  **4 the Department of Energy, and I am currently**  **5 the Chairman of the technology law firm**  **6 Harris, Wiltshire & Grannis.**  **7 While I was at DOE I did a lot in**  **8 the area of enforcement. And I think I was**  **9 asked to participate on this particular**  **10 committee because of that expertise and**  **11 background.**  **12 MEMBER GIBBONS: Hi. I am John**  **13 Gibbons from Carrier Corporation. I represent**  **14 all the UTC brands from Carrier/Bryant, all**  **15 the ICP brands.**  **16 I am kind of new to this process.**  **17 I am in charge of the residential products,**  **18 but my main drive is we have got a channel**  **19 right now between manufacturers, distributors,**  **20 contractors that is very confused.**  **21 And I just left a meeting**  **22 yesterday with 400 of them, and I didn't know** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what to tell them. I sat there and I showed**  **2 the picture of Washington, D.C. covered in red**  **3 tape.**  **4 (Laughter.)**  **5 And quite frankly, I assured them**  **6 that I was going to not be part of the problem**  **7 anymore, but be part of the solution. So, I**  **8 am here to try to bring this to resolution.**  **9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, good**  **10 morning.**  **11 I am Gary Fernstrom. My name tag**  **12 says I am representing the Pacific Gas &**  **13 Electric Company. When my nomination got sent**  **14 in for consideration for this Working Group,**  **15 I only had authority to represent PG&E, but,**  **16 in reality, now I am representing all of the**  **17 California investor-owned utilities. So, I**  **18 would like the record to show a correction to**  **19 that. Those are PG&E, the Southern California**  **20 Edison Company, San Diego Gas & Electric**  **21 Company, and the Southern California Gas**  **22 Company.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 As Harvey, I was a party to the**  **2 original negotiation that set this regional**  **3 standard arrangement in place. And I look**  **4 forward to working with you all to find an**  **5 amicable solution to a manner in which we can**  **6 assure compliance with the standard.**  **7 MEMBER ELLIS: Good morning.**  **8 My name is Ray Ellis. I am**  **9 General Manager for Lincoln Electric**  **10 Cooperative in Eureka, Montana. We are a real**  **11 small, member-owned, nonprofit utility. And**  **12 while I represent those people, kind of behind**  **13 me are about 915 other electric cooperatives**  **14 across the country that serve 75 percent of**  **15 the land mass of the United States.**  **16 And my concern here -- this is my**  **17 first go-round for anything like this -- so,**  **18 if I ask really unintelligent questions,**  **19 please be patient with me because I am trying**  **20 to figure out how this works.**  **21 But, certainly, my concern is the**  **22 cost that ends up at home to the people that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I represent and the people that hired me to**  **2 run their utility. And that is about all I**  **3 can say.**  **4 Thanks.**  **5 MEMBER DORIA: Jordan Doria with**  **6 Ingersoll Rand. I manage energy efficiency**  **7 policy issues across Ingersoll Rand's business**  **8 units, and I am here today representing our**  **9 residential HVAC business as well as the**  **10 distributors and our network of dealers and**  **11 installers that we have.**  **12 And I just want to say that we**  **13 were involved in the negotiation on the**  **14 commercial certification last summer, and we**  **15 came out believing that it was a really**  **16 constructive process. And I think that makes**  **17 us very optimistic that we are going to be**  **18 able to find a resolution to this one because**  **19 it definitely needs to be put to bed.**  **20 MEMBER ROY: My name is Roy,**  **21 Goodman Manufacturing. I am an Engineering**  **22 Manager of Regulatory Affairs, and we are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 looking forward to participating in this**  **2 process and add some perspective from a**  **3 manufacturer and distributor's standpoint.**  **4 And we felt the previous**  **5 consensus, the negotiated process was very**  **6 helpful for the industry, and we look forward**  **7 to continue doing that for this residential**  **8 issue, because the January 1st, 2015 date is**  **9 quickly approaching. And we are looking**  **10 forward to working with all of you on that.**  **11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Hi. I am Dave**  **12 Winningham with Allied Air Enterprises,**  **13 representing Lennox International and all the**  **14 divisions associated. I am an Engineering**  **15 Manager at Allied, and look forward to working**  **16 with the group to come up with an amicable**  **17 solution.**  **18 Thank you.**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: I'm Chuck White**  **20 with Plumbing-Heating-Cooling**  **21 Contractors-National Association. I have been**  **22 with them for almost four years.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Prior to that, I was a small**  **2 business contractor in South Bend, Indiana,**  **3 started at the wrong end of the shovel, worked**  **4 my way up to owning the business, handled all**  **5 kinds of product and equipment.**  **6 I come very strongly with the**  **7 contractor's point of view and what the**  **8 implications are to the guy who is on the**  **9 frontline doing this.**  **10 And, Mr. Sachs, in the interest of**  **11 energy efficiency, I am pretty sure we are**  **12 varying the speed of the blower running this**  **13 room and that is where your noise is coming**  **14 from when it unloads.**  **15 (Laughter.)**  **16 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Good morning.**  **17 I am Glenn Hourahan. I am with**  **18 the Air Conditioning Contractors of America.**  **19 I am here to represent the interest of the**  **20 HVAC contractors who install, service, and**  **21 maintain the equipment that we are speaking**  **22 of, the equipment that is regulated by the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rulemaking for the regional standards.**  **2 And so, the question is, how do we**  **3 properly enforce that rulemaking in a manner**  **4 that is fair and equitable and not being a**  **5 cost impediment to homeowners who are looking**  **6 to buy that equipment?**  **7 MEMBER SHEPHERD: I am Amy**  **8 Shepherd. I represent Air-Conditioning,**  **9 Heating, and Refrigeration Institute, or AHRI.**  **10 I am a lawyer. So, I will get that out on the**  **11 table right away. And we represent the**  **12 interests of manufacturers in this industry.**  **13 I have a wide background working**  **14 on regulatory and compliance issues for a lot**  **15 of for-profit companies in a lot of different**  **16 regulated industries. So, I have a lot of**  **17 experience on how companies actually implement**  **18 compliance programs and the asset that that**  **19 can be to an enforcement program. So, I am**  **20 looking forward to discussing this issue and**  **21 bringing that expertise to the table.**  **22 MEMBER ROCKY: Good morning.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Bryan Rocky, Johnson Controls,**  **2 currently Director of Residential Product**  **3 Management. I have been involved in this**  **4 industry for 35 years and a lot of activity,**  **5 going back with agencies over the last 25.**  **6 I couldn't say it much better than**  **7 John did. We have a lot of customers in our**  **8 chain, both factory branches and independent**  **9 distribution customers, that we don't know**  **10 what to tell them today of what is going to**  **11 happen in just a few months. And that is not**  **12 a good situation for anybody to be in.**  **13 So, I am very happy to be part of**  **14 this group and work towards coming up with a**  **15 solution that we can communicate to our**  **16 industry and our customers and our homeowners.**  **17 MEMBER PORTER: I am Steve Porter,**  **18 Vice President, Product Management, with**  **19 Johnstone Supply, and Co-Chair of Government**  **20 Affairs for HARDI, Heating, Air-Conditioning**  **21 & Refrigeration Distributors, representing all**  **22 members.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER NOLL: Hi. My name is**  **2 Elizabeth Noll. I am with the Natural**  **3 Resources Defense Council. NRDC was party to**  **4 the regional standard back when it was**  **5 established.**  **6 And I look forward to helping see**  **7 this process through and come to a reasonable**  **8 solution.**  **9 MEMBER MEYERS: Good morning,**  **10 everyone.**  **11 Karen Meyers with Rheem**  **12 Manufacturing. I run the public policy issues**  **13 for Rheem at the corporate level. But, prior**  **14 to joining that, I was with our Air**  **15 Conditioning Division. I chaired the industry**  **16 group that worked on the regional standards at**  **17 the time.**  **18 And while I was with the Air**  **19 Conditioning Division, I served in a lot of**  **20 issues with logistics, pricing, and sales.**  **21 So, I have a very good understanding of issues**  **22 that distributors and contractors face, and I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 am really looking forward to working on these**  **2 issues with this group for the rest of the**  **3 next two months.**  **4 Thank you.**  **5 MEMBER LATTANZI: Good morning.**  **6 My name is Matt Lattanzi. I am**  **7 with NORDYNE. I have been in the industry**  **8 approximately 20 years. Currently, I am the**  **9 Director of Product Management for NORDYNE.**  **10 My key responsibilities include understanding**  **11 and making sure we are designing and**  **12 developing the right products to meet market**  **13 demands.**  **14 My two big concerns are the**  **15 uncertainty that the regional standards have**  **16 created and the amount of unanswered questions**  **17 that we still have. So, we are very much**  **18 looking forward to getting answers to those**  **19 questions.**  **20 I also share what I heard from**  **21 John Gibbons and Bryan Rocky with the amount**  **22 of confusion that is out in the marketplace;** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 recently met with a lot of our customers, and**  **2 they are very confused and they are making**  **3 things up on their own. We definitely want to**  **4 get this resolved.**  **5 I guess my only comment is I wish**  **6 we had done it a little sooner. We are only**  **7 four months away. And again, that uncertainty**  **8 from a manufacturer's perspective is very**  **9 difficult to deal with.**  **10 And then, lastly, for Mr. Harvey**  **11 Sachs, I would like to thank you for pointing**  **12 out the hum. I didn't notice it until you**  **13 mentioned it, and now it is very top of mind.**  **14 (Laughter.)**  **15 So, again, we look forward to**  **16 participating.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: I am Doug Rawald, and**  **18 I am with the Department of Energy's Office of**  **19 General Counsel. I work in the Office of**  **20 Enforcement. So, I ought to thank Scott for**  **21 my job. I was hired after he left.**  **22 And I was not here for the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 previous go-around, the meeting on this issue.**  **2 So, I am a new person to this issue.**  **3 I have been a lawyer for 12 years.**  **4 My background has mostly been in criminal law.**  **5 So, I know a lot about enforcing laws, and I**  **6 work here in the Department every day making**  **7 sure things are enforced and the tools we have**  **8 available. So, that is why I am here, to talk**  **9 about that perspective and what will work and**  **10 what will not work from the Department's point**  **11 of view.**  **12 So, if I can offer you guys some**  **13 thoughts on that, I do hope, Matt, that we**  **14 won't just give you answers, but you will work**  **15 with us to come up with the answers, because**  **16 that is the way to do it, is for all of us to**  **17 work together to get to the answers.**  **18 I will note, for those keeping**  **19 track of the list of attendees, there is at**  **20 least one member who is online, Dave**  **21 Hungerford. So, I will turn it over to allow**  **22 him to introduce himself.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER HUNGERFORD: Hello. This**  **2 is David.**  **3 Wait a minute. I'm getting**  **4 feedback. Can you guys hear me?**  **5 MR. EISNER: Barely. Can you**  **6 speak up a little bit?**  **7 MEMBER HUNGERFORD: Okay. I'm**  **8 David Hungerford. I'm with the California**  **9 Energy Commission and also with Astra. I have**  **10 one background with appliance standards, and**  **11 I am currently responsible for the building**  **12 efficiency in the Research and Development**  **13 Division.**  **14 I'm glad to be here.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Thank you, Dave.**  **16 Let's start in the back of the**  **17 room with the first row.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **19 I'm going to jump in real quick.**  **20 For those keeping track, we have**  **21 one last member of the Committee who is not**  **22 here, nor on line. That is Charlie Harak from** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the National Consumer Law Center. He is on**  **2 vacation right now. And so, he didn't want to**  **3 interrupt that to talk to us right now,**  **4 understandably. So, he will be at the next**  **5 meeting of the group and he will be part of**  **6 future discussions.**  **7 MR. HURST: Hi, Neil.**  **8 I'm John Hurst with Lennox**  **9 International. I was on the Working Group**  **10 last year. This is a good process. A lot of**  **11 people have talked about confusion in the**  **12 marketplace. I hope we can work together on**  **13 simple solutions because I think that is going**  **14 to drive compliance.**  **15 So, I look forward to the process.**  **16 It is good to be back.**  **17 MR. CALABRESE: I'm Dave Calabrese**  **18 with Daikin Corporation. And I have been**  **19 involved, of course, in this process and the**  **20 negotiations that led up to the regional**  **21 standards.**  **22 MR. McCRUDDEN: I'm Charlie** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 McCrudden with the Air Conditioning**  **2 Contractors of America.**  **3 Mr. Lapato: Is this on now**  **4 (referring to microphone)?**  **5 My name is Dan Lapato, American**  **6 Public Gas Association. And I'm just here to**  **7 kind of observe the process itself.**  **8 Thank you.**  **9 MR. MELCHI: John Melchi with**  **10 Heating, Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration**  **11 Distributors, International, HARDI. I look**  **12 forward to participating in the process and**  **13 listening.**  **14 MR. SURRENA: I'm Don Surrena.**  **15 I'm with the National Association of**  **16 Homebuilders. We are a Washington-based trade**  **17 association, representing more than 140,000**  **18 members involved in homebuilding, remodeling,**  **19 multi-family construction, property**  **20 management, subcontracting, design, housing**  **21 finance, building product manufacturing, and**  **22 all other aspects of residential light** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 commercial construction.**  **2 Known as "the voice" of the**  **3 housing industry, NAHB is affiliated with more**  **4 than 800 state and local homebuilder**  **5 associations located in all 50 states and**  **6 Puerto Rico. NAHB's broader members construct**  **7 80 percent of the new housing units that are**  **8 projected to be built.**  **9 NAHB's Leading Home Suppliers**  **10 Council represents the nation's top**  **11 manufacturers who will be affected by all DOE**  **12 suggested approaches.**  **13 More than 14,000 firms that belong**  **14 NAHB Remodelers comprise one-fifth of all**  **15 firms that specify remodeling as a primary or**  **16 secondary business activity.**  **17 NAHB Multi-Family Council is**  **18 comprised of more than 1,000 builders,**  **19 developers, owners, and property managers of**  **20 all sizes and types of condominiums and rental**  **21 apartments.**  **22 Thus, NAHB's members clearly** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 represent all aspects of the housing industry.**  **2 Enforcement of the regional standard will**  **3 impact our members and potentially, through**  **4 reporting and/or recordkeeping requirements,**  **5 therefore, affecting housing affordability.**  **6 I look forward to this process.**  **7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Good morning.**  **8 I'm Steve Rosenstock with the**  **9 Edison Electric Institute.**  **10 One quick question. In the July**  **11 16th notice, it said that Greg Olson of Xcel**  **12 Energy is on this committee, and I don't see**  **13 him here today and I didn't hear if he was**  **14 going to be on the call. So, he is still on**  **15 the committee?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **17 Rawald.**  **18 That's my fault for not noting**  **19 that. So, Greg Olson the Department that he**  **20 has withdrawn his membership on the committee.**  **21 So, he is not part of this.**  **22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Again, as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 he represents the investment in utilities,**  **2 does that mean that you are looking for a**  **3 replacement for Mr. Olson?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: What the program has**  **5 told me -- and this is Doug Rawald again -- is**  **6 that they are not going to replace Mr. Olson,**  **7 but I can go back to them and discuss that**  **8 matter with them further before I give you a**  **9 definitive answer there.**  **10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you**  **11 very much.**  **12 And again, as an aside, because of**  **13 the short notice, I won't be able to attend**  **14 tomorrow's meeting and I have to leave early**  **15 today.**  **16 So, again, I look forward to the**  **17 proceedings as it will affect our member**  **18 companies, and I appreciate Gary's --**  **19 MR. EISNER: Do you want to make**  **20 any more comments on why you think it is or is**  **21 not important to replace him and who --**  **22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Do you want to make**  **2 any comments on why it would be good to**  **3 replace him or not to replace him? And do you**  **4 want to suggest anybody?**  **5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**  **6 Yes. Since I was not aware of it**  **7 until just now, I don't have any replacements.**  **8 Again, it is just a matter of, especially when**  **9 it comes to in terms of consensus, you know,**  **10 the number of people on the committee, it**  **11 could make a difference in terms of possible**  **12 consensus.**  **13 Gary will do an excellent job.**  **14 But, again, just in case you need any sort of**  **15 balance, et cetera. You know, you had three**  **16 utility representatives; now you have two. It**  **17 is up to you in terms of the numbers.**  **18 Thank you.**  **19 MEMBER SACHS: Neil, this is**  **20 Harvey.**  **21 And while it may not be in my**  **22 interest group's narrow interest, one of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 points to note would be that Gary is a great**  **2 guy, but he is not affected deeply in his**  **3 service territory by the regional issues, as**  **4 opposed to people in the Southwest and**  **5 Southeast.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Let me suggest this,**  **7 because it is brand-new information: we have**  **8 got a few hours to go before the end of the**  **9 day. I would just like to make sure Doug has**  **10 all the information he needs to bring back to**  **11 the program people. Give some thought to it.**  **12 We can have this issue raised and discussed**  **13 again this afternoon, if necessary.**  **14 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **15 Gary Fernstrom, representing the California**  **16 views.**  **17 I would support replacing this**  **18 individual to the extent that perspective in**  **19 our negotiation.**  **20 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with the Regal**  **21 Beloit Corporation. We are a manufacturer of**  **22 electric motors, just interested in seeing** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 where this enforcement is going and how we can**  **2 support our customers.**  **3 MR. DENNIS: Keith Dennis with the**  **4 National Rural Electric Cooperative**  **5 Association. We represent 900 nonprofit**  **6 utilities, again, to cover 75 percent of the**  **7 land mass. We want to make sure that the**  **8 standards make sense for both rural**  **9 communities as well as the urban communities**  **10 that are probably more well-represented in the**  **11 group.**  **12 Thanks.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Did we get everybody**  **14 in the back?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: And just one more**  **16 bookkeeping note. So, for those of you that**  **17 read the actual notice, Goodman nominated Gary**  **18 Clark, and he is the official member of the**  **19 group. Anirrudh Roy is his nominated**  **20 alternate, and we will discuss alternates when**  **21 we get to the ground rules. But, for the**  **22 record, he is alternate here, voting on behalf** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of Gary Clark, if we take any votes.**  **2 MR. EISNER: And I would mention**  **3 for the people in the back is the public**  **4 notices that the Department put out states you**  **5 do have a right to participate. We have time**  **6 that we can set aside. But, as we talk about**  **7 the ground rules, the next item on our agenda,**  **8 we will also discuss whether we want to do**  **9 this more informally and how we might want to**  **10 do that. For example, letting you just raise**  **11 your hand if you would like to speak at a**  **12 particular time.**  **13 Okay. The people on the side here**  **14 I think are probably all guilty of working for**  **15 the Department of Energy in some way,**  **16 indirectly or directly.**  **17 MS. HARIHARAN: My name is Johanna**  **18 Hariharan. That's H-A-R-I-H-A-R-A-N. I am an**  **19 attorney with the General Counsel Office, and**  **20 I work on the appliance standards. So, I am**  **21 just here to observe today.**  **22 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, the DOE** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 General Counsel's Office. I work on appliance**  **2 standards rulemakings, including the furnaces**  **3 CAC rule that has brought us here today. And**  **4 I am also observing.**  **5 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen, General**  **6 Counsel's Office for DOE as well. And I can**  **7 say, although I have not worked in the**  **8 industry, when I showed up in this building in**  **9 2007, the very first day I was here one hour**  **10 when I had my first HVAC question come to me.**  **11 And it was actually on the rulemaking in 2007**  **12 that was, then, remanded, which led to the**  **13 consensus agreement and the rulemaking that we**  **14 are now discussing today. So, this has been**  **15 my history.**  **16 MS. DEGITZ: I'm Laura Degitz. I**  **17 work for Navigant Consulting and support DOE**  **18 in certification, compliance, and rulemaking**  **19 issues.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Do you want to**  **21 introduce yourself, please?**  **22 MR. KRALKA: Alex Kralka.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. FREEMAN: Jeremiah Freeman.**  **2 MR. EISNER: Court Reporter, do**  **3 you want to today? No? Okay.**  **4 I will say, on behalf of the court**  **5 reporter, you have got to be clear and make**  **6 sure your microphones are on when you are**  **7 speaking. Otherwise, he is going to be**  **8 intervening and raising his hand all the time.**  **9 And the other thing I would stress**  **10 is not having multiple people speak at the**  **11 same time. That will drive the court reporter**  **12 crazy, and we may be stuck here without a**  **13 court reporter.**  **14 And especially when people are**  **15 trying to participate via phone, we have got**  **16 to make sure we let that person get in, so all**  **17 the people on the phone can be heard.**  **18 I do want to note that I have been**  **19 told there are 12 others on the line who are**  **20 not members of the group. We will have a list**  **21 later on, rather than spending more time in**  **22 going through each of those. And as some of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you know, that is going to change on and off**  **2 if people join us and people leave the line.**  **3 The other thing I want to mention**  **4 before we go on to our next topic is, if there**  **5 is any area in which you would like to have a**  **6 briefing before we start getting into the**  **7 substance of the rulemaking, it is not**  **8 inappropriate for you to ask for such a**  **9 briefing.**  **10 For example, if you need a**  **11 briefing on how FOIA works, the Freedom of**  **12 Information Act, with respect to information**  **13 that may be gathered under these rules, so**  **14 that you can participate more effectively, you**  **15 could decide now or you could decide later you**  **16 need it, as we get into the discussion.**  **17 And I raise this because I noted**  **18 it in the transcript of the public meeting**  **19 that was held a couple of years ago. Ask for**  **20 it. If you want something, if it is something**  **21 that you are willing to have DOE provide, they**  **22 can bring in an attorney who can talk about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 FOIA questions. If you want someone more**  **2 neutral, we can talk about who you might want**  **3 to have come in and talk about it.**  **4 This is true for other areas. If**  **5 you need briefings, for example, if you want**  **6 briefings from industry on how certain things**  **7 are done, we can ask who can effectively bring**  **8 people in to do a brief on how records are**  **9 kept, for example, or how information is**  **10 passed on through the chain that the product**  **11 passes before it is installed in someone's**  **12 house.**  **13 So, it is not inappropriate to**  **14 say, "Hey, before we even get into it, can we**  **15 get a briefing on how this works or how the**  **16 statute works or what we are required to do?"**  **17 So, again, any questions before we**  **18 move on?**  **19 (No response.)**  **20 Okay. And I teach part-time as an**  **21 adjunct professor. Fifty percent of the final**  **22 grade I give is based on the quantity and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 quality of the questions you ask. You cannot**  **2 possibly understand everything. So, don't**  **3 hesitate to let me know if you have a problem.**  **4 And by the way, mainly for**  **5 Harvey's benefit, I realize that I wasn't**  **6 introduced in terms of my background. I am an**  **7 attorney. And one of my jobs was to try to**  **8 help solve --**  **9 MEMBER HARRIS: Harvey is way**  **10 outnumbered.**  **11 (Laughter.)**  **12 MR. EISNER: Yes. No, I've**  **13 noticed that. And that is why I wanted to**  **14 make sure it was clear on the record, there is**  **15 one area where I can't be neutral.**  **16 And I also want to mention that I**  **17 was an attorney with the Department of**  **18 Transportation for many years in a position**  **19 similar to Dan's, where I oversaw the**  **20 regulatory activity of the Department. And**  **21 that is where my experience came from, working**  **22 inside the Department on negotiated** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rulemakings, but also constantly working on**  **2 other big issues, like the ones you are**  **3 facing. And I hope that my experience there**  **4 helps me to do a little bit better job, be a**  **5 little bit more understanding of how complex**  **6 these issues can be.**  **7 I will at times probably interrupt**  **8 and say, "Can somebody tell me what this is**  **9 all about?" For example, on the last**  **10 negotiated rulemaking I came to appreciate it.**  **11 In fact, I like to point out to people when I**  **12 go into a 7-11-type store and want to get a**  **13 cold pack I have much more appreciation than**  **14 I had before for what goes into making one of**  **15 those units, how complex they are, and how**  **16 difficult it is to determine what the energy**  **17 efficiency is and when you measure it and what**  **18 equipment is installed on it. It doesn't mean**  **19 I want to pay more for the beer, but I**  **20 understand what is behind the technology.**  **21 (Laughter.)**  **22 So, let's start off, take a break** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in about a half-hour to 45 minutes. Let's**  **2 start off with the ground rules.**  **3 What we did, prior to this**  **4 meeting, is I asked Doug to circulate to you**  **5 the ground rules that were used in the last**  **6 negotiations. We don't have to use them. We**  **7 can do it in a different way. But, if we are**  **8 going to start off with something, I thought**  **9 that would be most appropriate because some of**  **10 you were members of that committee and agreed**  **11 to these, and you will be familiar with why or**  **12 why not they may be issues.**  **13 These ground rules, as I said**  **14 earlier, are going to establish the way we**  **15 will run the meeting, each of the meetings.**  **16 It doesn't mean we can't change them. It**  **17 doesn't mean we can't adapt as we go along.**  **18 But, going in, especially on issues like**  **19 consensus, we want to make sure there is full**  **20 understanding.**  **21 So, unless anybody has any**  **22 objection, I suggest if we can put a copy** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 up -- we have a copy up already -- we can**  **2 start talking about these. If we want to**  **3 change things, obviously, the title of the**  **4 group and the first one and what the goal of**  **5 this particular group is, it is going to be**  **6 different from the commercial HVAC, et cetera,**  **7 rulemaking. But let's start off with that**  **8 one, unless someone wants to do it in a**  **9 different way, and talk about what the goal of**  **10 this group should be.**  **11 And what we will do, as there is**  **12 talk, I will get up, if necessary, and point**  **13 to words and things like that. If there is**  **14 any disagreement on the wording that is in the**  **15 document as it exists, we can work out that**  **16 wording now and make sure everybody is happy**  **17 with it.**  **18 So, what I would like to do, just**  **19 as I will do as we start talking about**  **20 substantive issues, is I don't want to**  **21 necessarily take a vote each time. When we**  **22 decide on what consensus is, I will simply** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 say, "Does anybody object?", and see whether**  **2 we have to discuss it further.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **4 Rawald.**  **5 Since we are talking about**  **6 something that is displayed on the wall, just**  **7 please be very careful and be as descriptive**  **8 as you can, because there will be a record,**  **9 and it is impossible to read and understand**  **10 what we talked about here unless we can**  **11 actually understand what we are talking about.**  **12 And what I mean is, if you are**  **13 going to talk about a word, say, "I want to**  **14 replace the word `and' with the word `the'."**  **15 Like please be descriptive, so we can**  **16 understand and a person reading the record can**  **17 really know what happened here. This helps**  **18 with public transparency and also helps us**  **19 later on with understanding exactly what we**  **20 did in the course of this negotiation.**  **21 Thank you.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Again, do we simply** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 want to change the name that is used or do we**  **2 want to do more? Do we want to add something**  **3 else?**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen**  **5 Meyers with Rheem.**  **6 First of all, we should change the**  **7 title to "Residential Regional Air**  **8 Conditioning Enforcement Standards". Let's**  **9 say "Central Air-Conditioning," "Regional**  **10 Central Air-Conditioning Enforcement Standards**  **11 Working Group," and remove the word**  **12 "certification".**  **13 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **14 Rawald.**  **15 Putting actually "Standards**  **16 Enforcement" as opposed to "Enforcement**  **17 Standards".**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Any comments?**  **20 Yes?**  **21 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden**  **22 with the Air Conditioning Contractors of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 America.**  **2 Two comments. One is I don't know**  **3 if you can move your microphone up a bit,**  **4 because in the back it is kind of hard to hear**  **5 you.**  **6 MR. EISNER: I'll try and see if**  **7 that helps. Is that better?**  **8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Yes, that is.**  **9 And then, the second one is I**  **10 think we should make sure that it is clear**  **11 that this is for split-system central air**  **12 conditioners and single-package air**  **13 conditioners, because those are the only two**  **14 products that we are talking about here.**  **15 Yes, just put in**  **16 parentheses -- somewhere it should just**  **17 reference "split-system" and "single-package**  **18 central air-conditioners".**  **19 MEMBER LATTANZI: Charlie, this is**  **20 Matt Lattanzi at NORDYNE.**  **21 Is "single-package" on a national**  **22 standard, not a regional standard?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: No. It is the two**  **2 products that are subject to regional**  **3 standards are --**  **4 MEMBER LATTANZI: Oh, the**  **5 Southwest?**  **6 MR. McCRUDDEN: -- split-system --**  **7 yes.**  **8 MEMBER LATTANZI: I'm sorry. In**  **9 the Southwest?**  **10 MR. McCRUDDEN: Yes.**  **11 MEMBER LATTANZI: My mistake. I**  **12 had forgotten the Southwest.**  **13 MR. McCRUDDEN: It is easy. It is**  **14 only California, Arizona, Nevada, and New**  **15 Mexico.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug**  **17 Rawald.**  **18 This is for everyone following**  **19 along who don't understand. So, the regional**  **20 standards that we are talking about apply to**  **21 split-system air-conditioning, both in the**  **22 Southeast regions of America, where there are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a number of states that are enumerated in the**  **2 CFR, as well as the Southwest region must have**  **3 a higher SEER level.**  **4 And there is an EER value required**  **5 for the Southwest region for single-package**  **6 air-conditioners. So, a slightly different**  **7 issue, but of importance as well for our**  **8 negotiations.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 Anybody disagree with this as a**  **12 title?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: When I see that**  **14 there, I see split-systems and single-package.**  **15 I think "single-package" is probably the**  **16 industry term that people are familiar with.**  **17 And also, just remember, from a**  **18 regulatory point of view, we call them**  **19 "central air-conditioners" as opposed to "air**  **20 conditioning". It is "air-conditioning**  **21 systems". So, I would prefer the word "air**  **22 conditioners" because of our regulations.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Does that title work**  **2 for everybody?**  **3 Okay. So, we have consensus on**  **4 that. We want to, then, put it in down here.**  **5 Do we want to come up with a short title for**  **6 any purpose that everybody could agree to? Or**  **7 do we want to just use this?**  **8 Okay. We'll stick with this.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: I would be content**  **10 with calling this "The Regional Standard**  **11 Enforcement Working Group," if that works for**  **12 everybody. It is more of a mouthful, what we**  **13 have up there.**  **14 This is Doug Rawald.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Put that in**  **16 parentheses, and we will use it, and probably**  **17 do it down here. Is that okay with everybody?**  **18 All right.**  **19 MEMBER MEYERS: Just one other**  **20 point. This is Karen Meyers with Rheem.**  **21 It is actually "package," not**  **22 "packaged," just to be clear. Thank you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Then, in No. 1**  **2 we can use the parenthetical heading.**  **3 The goal --**  **4 MR. RAWALD: And just to be clear**  **5 -- this is Doug Rawald -- so, "Residential**  **6 Regional Standards Enforcement Working Group"**  **7 because that's what we are. We are not**  **8 focused on the standards. We have no impact**  **9 on the actual standards, just the enforcement**  **10 of those standards.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Goal: in**  **12 good-faith, reach consensus. This is No. 1.**  **13 Recommended DOE-regulated performance -- no,**  **14 we have to change there.**  **15 Okay. The final sentence. Any**  **16 comments, any suggestions for changing that?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **18 I hate to jump into the statute**  **19 initially, as a lawyer, right? But our**  **20 statutory mandate from the Department's point**  **21 of view is that to initiate a rulemaking to**  **22 develop and implement an effective enforcement** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 plan for regional standards. So, I would say**  **2 our objective here is to develop that**  **3 effective enforcement plan for regional**  **4 standards.**  **5 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **6 Doria with Ingersoll Rand.**  **7 Maybe to ask a clarifying**  **8 question, we say "effective plan". My**  **9 interpretation of that is that a plan could**  **10 include both, I'll call them regulatory**  **11 elements as well as non-regulatory elements.**  **12 Is that a correct interpretation?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug**  **14 Rawald.**  **15 I guess it is open for us to**  **16 discuss. I mean, I think that there's lots of**  **17 room to discuss on what will make something an**  **18 effective enforcement plan, and there's a lot**  **19 of pieces in that.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Yes?**  **21 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden**  **22 with Air Conditioning Contractors of America.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And maybe this question is to**  **2 scope, which I think we are getting to later,**  **3 but what would potentially be outside of the**  **4 regulatory that would include plan or --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Charlie,**  **6 you are definitely putting the cart before the**  **7 horse.**  **8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: So, we want to**  **10 establish the ground rules, which I think at**  **11 this point should be only open to the Working**  **12 Group members and not for the public comment,**  **13 while we are establishing the ground rules.**  **14 And then, once they are established, we will**  **15 definitely get into scope and we will have**  **16 folks' opinions on that.**  **17 But, as far as establishing the**  **18 baseline objective for the ground rules, it**  **19 seems to be as broad as possible, so we all**  **20 know what we are looking at. And then, we can**  **21 get into kind of defining what our objectives**  **22 are later on in the discussion, if that works** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for Neil.**  **2 MR. EISNER: Well, it is what**  **3 works for you guys. What works for what ASRAC**  **4 has asked? Have they asked for a plan or have**  **5 they asked just for a proposed rule? And does**  **6 it matter?**  **7 MEMBER SACHS: Neil, this is**  **8 Harvey Sachs.**  **9 And I think it does matter. What**  **10 ASRAC has asked for, we may answer somewhat**  **11 different, but I think we are obligated to be**  **12 conscious.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Let's have some**  **14 comment, then, on a plan which could be**  **15 broader than a proposed rule. What would you,**  **16 the Working Group, like? Do you feel you can**  **17 get consensus on a rule without talking about**  **18 the plan that would envelope it? Or do you**  **19 think it would be easier to just work toward**  **20 developing a proposed rule?**  **21 MEMBER HARRIS: This is Scott**  **22 Harris.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think working towards a proposed**  **2 rule encompasses all the other things that**  **3 would lead to that rule. And the outcome here**  **4 should be, I think, advice to the Department**  **5 on its rulemaking. And so, we will discuss,**  **6 of necessity, how that enforcement would take**  **7 place, the plans, whatever else, but I think**  **8 the outcome here has to be a recommendation on**  **9 what the rules should be that the Department**  **10 should adopt.**  **11 MR. EISNER: That a very good**  **12 point, because from my perspective what you**  **13 might want to recommend that the agency do**  **14 that is not technically part of the rule of**  **15 text, the Group could agree, explain in the**  **16 preamble this or add this language to the**  **17 preamble.**  **18 And correct me if I'm wrong, but I**  **19 think in the last Working Group that some of**  **20 us worked on we did some of that. We did make**  **21 some suggestions for what should go in the**  **22 preamble. So that, doing a proposed rule** 

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### 1 would encompass that within its scope. **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is 3 Doug Rawald.**  **4 So, the authority for ASRAC, as 5 negotiated in the meeting for ASRAC from June**  **6 6th, 2014, was that ASRAC would establish a 7 Working Group to come up with a regional**  **8 standard enforcement process for those 9 cooling-based regional standards coming**  **10 effective as of January 1st, 2015. So, that 11 is the language from ASRAC.**  **12 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey. 13 And just to keep things moving, I**  **14 think if we substitute the word "process," it 15 shows that we are honoring what they have**  **16 asked for and allows us to do a rule, 17 preamble, and anything else we darned well**  **18 please. 19 MR. EISNER: Everybody got that?**  **20 That is in the second line of the sentence 21 starting off, "The goal of the Working Group**  **22 is...." Substitute "process" there.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Can anybody online follow us in**  **2 this discussion?**  **3 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary,**  **4 representing the California IOUs with a**  **5 question. Am I correct in assuming that DOE**  **6 has a statutory requirement to achieve**  **7 enforcement? So, what this group is trying to**  **8 come up with is an amenable way for DOE to**  **9 achieve this required outcome?**  **10 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **11 The Department has a statutory**  **12 requirement after the promulgation of regional**  **13 standards to develop and enforce an effective**  **14 enforcement plan, as I just read. So, we were**  **15 supposed to do that quite a bit ago. But this**  **16 was, obviously, put on hold by other events.**  **17 So, we are having this negotiation**  **18 for the purpose of fulfilling that statutory**  **19 mandate. So, if this group comes with a rule,**  **20 a proposed rule, that's great. If it does**  **21 not, the Department will have to proceed with**  **22 a rule to meet our statutory requirement, if** 

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### 1 that answers your question. **2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you. It 3 does.**  **4 MR. EISNER: Any comments, 5 questions?**  **6 Yes? 7 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **8 Hourahan with ACCA. 9 I am concerned with the word**  **10 "process" and "plan" because, if there is a 11 rulemaking, that is very specific as to what**  **12 we are trying to come up with. And we in 13 industry could have multiple processes or**  **14 multiple plans on how we satisfy that 15 rulemaking, but try to identify using**  **16 "process" and "plan" in this definition might 17 be entailing that we are only looking and**  **18 moving toward one approach. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments on**  **20 that? 21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. Glenn, this is**  **22 Doug Rawald.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I am a little bit confused. So,**  **2 maybe you can give me a little more specific**  **3 examples of exactly what you are describing,**  **4 what the concern would be for the industry**  **5 about us. If we were to come up with an**  **6 effective enforcement process, this is meant**  **7 to be from the viewpoint of what can we do,**  **8 what kind of rule can the Department**  **9 promulgate that will make an effective**  **10 enforcement process. What would be the**  **11 concern from industry's point of view that we**  **12 would be now stopping other processes from**  **13 being put in place?**  **14 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Words have**  **15 meaning, and we are picking the words now. If**  **16 we are coming up with a recommended effective**  **17 process -- you didn't say "processes"; you**  **18 just said "process". So, to me, that means a**  **19 singular path, as opposed to I am more**  **20 comfortable if we were coming up with the**  **21 rulemaking.**  **22 MEMBER ROCKY: Bryan Rocky from** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Johnson Controls.**  **2 Glenn, not to disagree with you,**  **3 but I think, as a committee, we can present**  **4 and discuss multiple approaches. But I think**  **5 for what the ASRAC committee will be expecting**  **6 from us, it is one recommendation for their**  **7 consideration that can move forward to the**  **8 Department.**  **9 So, having a process doesn't**  **10 eliminate us from considering multiple**  **11 approaches, but I don't think we are going to**  **12 be able to present multiple things to the**  **13 ASRAC committee and have them pick one that we**  **14 think is the best or that they think is the**  **15 best.**  **16 MEMBER HARRIS: This is Scott**  **17 Harris.**  **18 Can I make a suggestion? Suppose**  **19 it read, "reach consensus on recommended rules**  **20 for effective enforcement of regional**  **21 standards". That is the outcome here. It is**  **22 rules. And any preamble and stuff, it is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 actually part of the rules. And so, I would**  **2 just say we are trying to come up with rules**  **3 for effective enforcement of the standards.**  **4 MR. EISNER: Discussion on rules?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Glenn, how does that**  **6 address your issue?**  **7 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Fine with me.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **9 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Thank you.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: From my point of**  **11 view, that seems to be okay, too.**  **12 Let me just confer with Dan to**  **13 make sure that, from his point of view, that**  **14 doesn't handicap them.**  **15 MR. COHEN: I would never disagree**  **16 with Scott when he was doing my performance**  **17 reviews.**  **18 (Laughter.)**  **19 But, as usual, he is prescient**  **20 because, in fact, actually, just before he**  **21 said that, I was going to chime-in and say the**  **22 statutory obligation is for us to issue a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rule, right? Using that word seems to me to**  **2 be the key. That is the job we have to**  **3 accomplish.**  **4 MEMBER HARRIS: I would like to**  **5 note for the record you always disagreed with**  **6 me when I was doing your performance reviews.**  **7 (Laughter.)**  **8 And the fact you agree with me now**  **9 is rather stunning and I totally love it.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: So, I would note**  **11 that, from DOE's point of view, both the**  **12 lawyer and the lawyer's lawyer agree that that**  **13 would be good language.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Any objections to the**  **15 "rule"?**  **16 Tim?**  **17 MEMBER BALLO: Not necessarily an**  **18 objection. I just want to be clear that I**  **19 think rules encompasses also guidelines, which**  **20 I think we used in the Certification for**  **21 Commercial Equipment Work Group.**  **22 For example, that DOE wouldn't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 take certain actions within a certain time**  **2 period. Those weren't put into rules, but**  **3 they were sort of more informal guidance that**  **4 the agency agreed to adopt.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody**  **6 object to the use of the word "rule"?**  **7 Yes?**  **8 MEMBER ROY: My name is Roy,**  **9 Goodman.**  **10 Just an editorial comment. Maybe**  **11 you might want to add an "S" after "standard".**  **12 MR. EISNER: Which line? Where**  **13 are we?**  **14 MEMBER ROY: In the second line.**  **15 MR. EISNER: In the second line,**  **16 No. 1. That is consistent with up above.**  **17 Any objections to No. 1 as it is**  **18 worded?**  **19 MEMBER SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **20 Shepherd from AHRI.**  **21 I just want to clarify that, if we**  **22 set the goal of this as a rule, I think there** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is going to be a lot of discussion about**  **2 things that the industry, that different**  **3 parties will do in a compliance aspect that**  **4 may not be articulated in the rule, but it can**  **5 enhance the process. And I don't want to do**  **6 anything that forecloses that discussion.**  **7 And then, my second point was,**  **8 because there is a statutory definition of**  **9 central air-conditioners, I just want to make**  **10 sure that, since we changed the title to be**  **11 the two specific product types, that we are**  **12 not creating any confusion through that, by**  **13 using that short reference there. I just want**  **14 to tee it up for discussion.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: So, Amy, is your**  **16 concern that using the shorthand "Residential**  **17 Regional Standards Enforcement" might be**  **18 confusing because of the --**  **19 MEMBER SHEPHERD: I just didn't**  **20 want to create any conflict between what we**  **21 did in the title which was discussed by those**  **22 two products. And so, as long as everybody** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 agrees that we are consistent there in that,**  **2 we don't see any issues there, then that is**  **3 fine.**  **4 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add**  **5 "hereinafter," and then, we can use the short**  **6 title throughout if we want to? Will that --**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right. That would be**  **8 very loyalty of us, if we were to put a**  **9 parenthetical with quotation marks around the**  **10 short term that we are using, and then,**  **11 everybody would assume -- that is quite fine.**  **12 MR. EISNER: If HARDI doesn't**  **13 object, it can't be a problem, can it?**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **15 (Laughter.)**  **16 MEMBER GIBBONS: This is John**  **17 Gibbons from Carrier.**  **18 Before Scott made the**  **19 recommendation on the word "rules," I was**  **20 going to suggest "approach" or "framework".**  **21 So, I guess my question for everybody is, are**  **22 we really developing a rule or are we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 suggesting a framework or an approach that**  **2 would become a rule?**  **3 MEMBER HARRIS: My understanding**  **4 of what the ASRAC expects is a proposed rule**  **5 that we would all agree to or have a consensus**  **6 to agree to and to suggest to the Department.**  **7 And as to the point about there**  **8 would be lots of ways to comply with the rule,**  **9 and you will actually have to discuss, you**  **10 certainly will have to discuss all of those**  **11 things to understand what rule makes sense, I**  **12 would say all of those discussions about how**  **13 you would manage to comply with any rule is**  **14 inherent in a discussion of what kind of a**  **15 rule makes sense.**  **16 MR. COHEN: A slightly final point**  **17 on that, and not to disagree with Scott, so I**  **18 don't think ASRAC or the Department expects**  **19 this committee to actually draft the rule. It**  **20 was referred to later, you will see -- and**  **21 they did this in the commercial certification**  **22 ground rules as well -- to come up with a term** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 sheet basically of what a rule would look**  **2 like. And that would be sent to the**  **3 Department for the actual drafting of the rule**  **4 document.**  **5 So, the terms of what would be in**  **6 the rule I think gets to what you are**  **7 suggesting. But it is to inform the**  **8 Department's issuance of a rule, which is the**  **9 legal obligation.**  **10 MEMBER GIBBONS: Okay. This is**  **11 John, and I'm good with that.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Comment or question**  **13 in the back?**  **14 This should be "hereinafter".**  **15 That is one word.**  **16 Everybody comfortable with No. 1**  **17 as written now?**  **18 MEMBER DORIA: Jordan Doria with**  **19 Ingersoll Rand.**  **20 Just a question. I think I am**  **21 fine with "rules," but we are saying that all**  **22 these rules would ultimately, then, be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 promulgated in a single actual rule, correct?**  **2 There will not be multiple rulemakings to,**  **3 then, carry forward the rules?**  **4 MR. EISNER: Well, again, this**  **5 group has the authority to decide what it**  **6 wants to do. If you want one rule and you**  **7 want language in the preamble, you can make**  **8 recommendations on that.**  **9 If you want, as Dan said, you can**  **10 do the drafting of terms and the agency can**  **11 put it into rule language or you can draft the**  **12 rule language, if you think that is what you**  **13 need for consensus. I assume DOE would not**  **14 object.**  **15 MEMBER DORIA: Okay.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right. And, Jordan**  **17 -- this is Doug Rawald -- from DOE's point of**  **18 view, we would anticipate doing one rulemaking**  **19 to make the outputs out there.**  **20 MR. EISNER: No objections to No.**  **21 1?**  **22 (No response.)** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Let's go on to No. 2,**  **2 "participants". The first one is interests**  **3 represented.**  **4 Comments? Questions?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **6 Rawald.**  **7 I know we have been going for**  **8 about an hour and a half now. I don't know if**  **9 it would be possible to take a break. Maybe**  **10 folks can sit down and look through the rules**  **11 real quick, make sure how they feel about**  **12 them. We might have a better discussion if**  **13 people can get a chance to read them for a few**  **14 minutes before we talk a little more.**  **15 MR. EISNER: That would be fine.**  **16 Why don't we take a 15-minute break? Be back**  **17 at a quarter of.**  **18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **19 went off the record at 10:30 A.m. and went**  **20 back on the record at 10:45 a.m.)**  **21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Can we get**  **22 started again?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 All right. We are up to some of**  **2 the basic requirements about participation in**  **3 the process, who the participants are, when**  **4 you can have alternates, that sort of thing.**  **5 There may be some issues in here. So, don't**  **6 go through them too quickly.**  **7 But let's start with the first**  **8 one, "interests represented". Anybody have**  **9 any objections to that?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 All right. Do we want to vote on**  **12 this paragraph-by-paragraph or section-by**  **13 section?**  **14 Yes, I would suggest we get**  **15 consensus on each subsection, and then, we can**  **16 go back and look at the whole thing and see if**  **17 our opinion has changed.**  **18 So, 2a, nobody has got a problem**  **19 with that?**  **20 (No response.)**  **21 All right, let's go to 2b,**  **22 "parties to the negotiations".** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Anybody have a problem?**  **2 (No response.)**  **3 Okay, c, "Working Group members".**  **4 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **5 Hourahan.**  **6 I didn't see in the document what**  **7 the representational requirements were,**  **8 because the last line says, "or ceases to**  **9 maintain the representational requirements".**  **10 MR. EISNER: I think the**  **11 representational requirements may refer partly**  **12 to g. You are expected to represent the**  **13 concerns of your interest group. Does**  **14 somebody see anything else in there besides**  **15 that?**  **16 So, if you go down to g. "Only**  **17 Working Group members or alternates have the**  **18 privilege of sitting at the negotiating table.**  **19 Any party may speak from the floor during the**  **20 negotiations."**  **21 Whoops, I'm sorry, g. I am**  **22 reading the wrong thing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 "Working Group members are**  **2 expected to represent the concerns of their**  **3 interest group."**  **4 Okay. So, if we can go back to**  **5 paragraph b? Okay, I'm sorry, it is c we were**  **6 on. "Ceases to maintain the representational**  **7 requirement". I assume that would mean if you**  **8 change jobs or no longer could represent the**  **9 people who are in the interest group.**  **10 Any problems?**  **11 (No response.)**  **12 Okay, d, "Alternates for Working**  **13 Group members".**  **14 MR. RAWALD: And, Neil, this is**  **15 Doug Rawald.**  **16 I will note that during the break**  **17 the folks from HARDI and also from ACCA came**  **18 to me and wanted to know, given a recent**  **19 presidential statement regarding the**  **20 possibility of a lobbyist being involved in**  **21 such subcommittees as this, whether they could**  **22 actually be, as a lobbyist, nominated as an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 alternate to a current member on the panel.**  **2 I told them that we will confer**  **3 with our general law colleagues, actually, the**  **4 woman who gave us the briefing this morning.**  **5 And so, I have asked the question, and when we**  **6 have an answer, I will let the group know, so**  **7 we can take a stand on that.**  **8 MR. EISNER: All right. We can**  **9 always come back to this later when we find**  **10 out about that. But, as of right now, does**  **11 anybody have a problem with d?**  **12 (No response.)**  **13 Okay, e, "Additional interests".**  **14 Any concerns?**  **15 (No response.)**  **16 All right, f, "Attendance and**  **17 participation at meetings".**  **18 MR. RAWALD: And, Neil, this is**  **19 Doug Rawald again.**  **20 If I could jump in, so there have**  **21 been at least two folks who have asked for a**  **22 replacement for Greg Olson from Xcel Energy,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 which, obviously, is part of an interest**  **2 represented in the group.**  **3 At this point the program has not**  **4 put someone forward. But, if we were to put**  **5 someone forward, I would view them as falling**  **6 under that category of someone that the group**  **7 would, then, approve of that person being**  **8 added to the group. So, that is the way I**  **9 would think it would make to proceed.**  **10 Does anyone have any opinion on**  **11 that? Does anyone agree with that?**  **12 So, technically, if we were to**  **13 find someone and we were agree that we would**  **14 replace Greg Olson, we would bring that person**  **15 to the group, and the group would, then, vote**  **16 and have reached consensus on, yes, allowing**  **17 that person to intervene at this point, given**  **18 the fact that we have started negotiations.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Does that also have**  **20 to be approved by the Secretary?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: So, I will talk to**  **22 Dan about that as well, and we will coordinate** 

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### 1 how we would put that person added. **2 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen. 3 I had checked with the ethics**  **4 lawyers and the FACA lawyers about this. So, 5 technically, we don't even need the**  **6 committee's approval to do that because the 7 Secretary can put someone on the committee to**  **8 fill that role. But, I think, I mean, we 9 would ask, obviously.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, my 11 question to the group would be, these ground**  **12 rules as written, because it is an interest 13 already represented, would not require that**  **14 person to come to be approved by us. 15 Would the group want that to be**  **16 part of these ground rules or would they not? 17 Would they be okay with the fact that the**  **18 Secretary may add this person to replace Greg 19 Olson, and that is the way things would go**  **20 forward? 21 (No response.)**  **22 Okay. So, what we are saying we**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are comfortable with it as drafted, which is,**  **2 because an organizational interest is already**  **3 represented, we wouldn't have to have the**  **4 Working Group's approval to put him forward.**  **5 And if the Secretary does decide to put**  **6 someone on the panel to replace Greg Olson, we**  **7 will do that, and that person would, then, be**  **8 caught up in what we have talked about.**  **9 MR. EISNER: I suspect one of the**  **10 reasons this is in the document is because, as**  **11 you are going through the negotiations, you**  **12 may identify an interest group that should be**  **13 at the table that nobody realized at the**  **14 beginning of the negotiations should be at the**  **15 table. I don't think that is necessarily the**  **16 issue here, but you want to be able to say we**  **17 really can't negotiate any further unless we**  **18 can bring in somebody who can speak for those**  **19 interest groups.**  **20 Okay, that brings us up to f(1),**  **21 "Attendance". Anybody have a problem with**  **22 (1)?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (No response.)**  **2 Okay, (2), "Participation". "Only**  **3 Working Group members" -- this is one you have**  **4 got to think about -- "have the privilege of**  **5 sitting at the table. Any party may speak**  **6 from the floor during the negotiations. The**  **7 Working Group may limit discussion as needed."**  **8 We are basically saying that**  **9 people sitting in the back, we either want to**  **10 control it and say only at limited times**  **11 during the day or we want to let them come up**  **12 to the microphone and ask for permission to**  **13 speak every time they want to, or something in**  **14 between.**  **15 And again, we can change. If too**  **16 many people interrupt too often, we can do**  **17 something about it. My experience with the**  **18 last one -- it doesn't mean it should govern**  **19 here -- was it worked very well. We got lots**  **20 of very, very good information from people**  **21 during the discussions.**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I would just like to second that.**  **2 I felt that the contributions from all in the**  **3 room were extremely important. I didn't think**  **4 it ever got out of hand. I think it is part**  **5 of building some trust in the community to**  **6 allow that openness until we get to the vote.**  **7 MR. EISNER: And that is a**  **8 valuable point. If you can accommodate that**  **9 kind of representation -- everybody can't be**  **10 at the table. The agency does the best it can**  **11 to get representatives of all the interests.**  **12 But when people know they can come to the**  **13 meeting or they can get on the phone and they**  **14 can be heard at anytime, it is very valuable.**  **15 MEMBER HARRIS: This is Scott**  **16 Harris.**  **17 I agree; the more open the**  **18 process, the better.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any**  **20 objections?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **22 So, I guess my question would be,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 do we want to create some sort of more**  **2 organization to the approach? In other words,**  **3 do we want to have initial discussion be among**  **4 the folks at the table, and then, open up to**  **5 public comment, or to consistently allow folks**  **6 to walk up to the microphone and be involved**  **7 in it?**  **8 And I don't have a preference**  **9 either way at the moment. I just want to put**  **10 out there some different ideas for folks to**  **11 consider.**  **12 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **13 And I am a strong believer in**  **14 creative ambiguity. I don't think this needs**  **15 to be addressed.**  **16 (Laughter.)**  **17 MR. EISNER: Again, I would say**  **18 from my past experience that the people who**  **19 sat in the back respected the fact that they**  **20 weren't at the table. They didn't just come**  **21 in and jump in whenever they wanted to. They**  **22 waited until they were recognized. It was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 done in a very orderly fashion and a very**  **2 positive thing.**  **3 Okay, nobody has a problem with**  **4 this?**  **5 (No response.)**  **6 The next one, g, "Constituents'**  **7 interest," also an important one. I think we**  **8 have talked about this. You are expected to**  **9 represent the concerns of the interest group,**  **10 to ensure any agreement developed is**  **11 acceptable.**  **12 Does anybody have problems with**  **13 the language as it is currently drafted?**  **14 (No response.)**  **15 Okay, hearing no objection, we**  **16 have gone through all of (2). Do we have**  **17 consensus on it? Anybody object to a**  **18 consensus, unanimous consensus?**  **19 (No response.)**  **20 Okay, now we get to the big one,**  **21 "Decisionmaking. The Working Group will**  **22 operate by consensus, which for these purposes** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 means no more than two negative votes."**  **2 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **3 Doria of Ingersoll Rand.**  **4 I think this gets to the point on**  **5 -- well, before we get into all the sort of**  **6 details of this, I think to answer it, we also**  **7 need to have some line of sight into how many**  **8 people are ultimately going to be on the**  **9 committee, which is a little bit in flux, at**  **10 least for this one question as to a**  **11 replacement for the representative of Xcel.**  **12 So, I just sort of put that out**  **13 there, that I think that may be relevant. I**  **14 don't know if we are in a position to handicap**  **15 the likelihood of a replacement at this time,**  **16 but it would be good to know that.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Jordan, this is Doug**  **18 Rawald.**  **19 So, the program has previously**  **20 decided they would not replace that person.**  **21 So, we have gone back and asked the question,**  **22 given the fact that there is at least one** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 member of the public who has asked us to**  **2 consider it further. So, I guess right now we**  **3 would proceed with the idea that we are not**  **4 replacing that person, but if we do, then that**  **5 person will be added. That is the current**  **6 status of things.**  **7 So, it would be one extra person.**  **8 That may change the numbers in someone's mind**  **9 about how they want to consider interests and**  **10 those kinds of things, when looking at the**  **11 numbers for consensus.**  **12 What I would say is this**  **13 particular provision is not meant to be in any**  **14 way recommended language from the Department**  **15 as far as how the voting will go. It is what**  **16 we have done in the last round that folks were**  **17 involved in.**  **18 So, we are open to a lot of**  **19 discussion on this. I think it is a very**  **20 important provision, and I think everyone**  **21 should really think about what they think is**  **22 the best way to go with requiring consensus in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this particular context of this rulemaking.**  **2 MEMBER HARRIS: So, this is Scott.**  **3 I have done a lot of these things**  **4 out of the DOE context. And I don't believe**  **5 in defining consensus, because when you define**  **6 consensus, actually, you are then voting. And**  **7 then, that is not a consensus process. I**  **8 believe in ambiguity occasionally as well.**  **9 And I think we just leave the word "consensus"**  **10 and we see what we think that means over time.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Other comments?**  **12 Other thoughts?**  **13 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, this is**  **14 Gary.**  **15 I think being vague about it is**  **16 problematic because, then, it is hard to reach**  **17 agreement in the Working Group on**  **18 recommendations we would like to make.**  **19 From my prior experience on two of**  **20 these Working Groups, Transformers and**  **21 Commercial Industrial Pumps, we had two**  **22 different experiences.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Transformers, consensus was deemed**  **2 to be 100 percent. And to the dismay of many**  **3 on the Working Group, one special interest**  **4 group blocked consensus, and we wound up with**  **5 less-than-a-satisfactory outcome.**  **6 On the Pumps Working Group, I**  **7 can't recall whether it was two or three, but**  **8 we chose a number such that one special**  **9 interest group could not block moving forward**  **10 with a recommendation, and it would take more**  **11 than that from any particular lobby area in**  **12 order to block agreement.**  **13 So, I think we should define that,**  **14 and I think the number ought to be three and**  **15 not two. But that is just my opinion from my**  **16 interest group.**  **17 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen.**  **18 Just one quick thing. Silence in**  **19 this instance is not ambiguous because the**  **20 Negotiated Rulemaking Act defines consensus as**  **21 unanimity unless the committee agrees to**  **22 something different. So, yes.** 

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### 1 MEMBER HARRIS: Then, I go with **2 three, too. 3 (Laughter.)**  **4 MR. EISNER: Yes? 5 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Now this is**  **6 Gary. 7 That is, indeed, ambiguous,**  **8 "three, too". 9 (Laughter.)**  **10 MR. HURST: Are we permitted to 11 speak now?**  **12 MR. EISNER: Yes. 13 MR. HURST: Okay. Is there any**  **14 issue with the number changing from Working 15 Group to Working Group? I know last time**  **16 around or last summer for the Working Group 17 that we defined consensus as all but two, I**  **18 think. Does it matter Working Group to 19 Working Group that it is inconsistent?**  **20 John Hurst with Lennox. I'm 21 sorry.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Rawald.**  **2 This is the fourth one we have**  **3 going on, and the three previous ones have all**  **4 had different decisions about consensus.**  **5 MR. HURST: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: So, there is no**  **7 precedent value about that. It is what will**  **8 work the most for this group in the context of**  **9 this rulemaking.**  **10 MR. HURST: Okay. Thanks for the**  **11 clarification.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Let me take a step**  **13 back, as the neutral part of the talk, of what**  **14 you get here. I don't experience it being**  **15 whether there are 24 or 25 people on the**  **16 Working Group, whether you get 24 votes, 23,**  **17 25. It is really who can stop something from**  **18 going through.**  **19 If you had, for example, one**  **20 public interest group here or you had four**  **21 public interest groups here, you want to know**  **22 whether you want to let them block something.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 You may need to say it takes four negative**  **2 votes or it takes one negative vote or it**  **3 takes three negative votes. If you had three**  **4 people representing another part of the**  **5 industry, the same thing there.**  **6 People think of it in terms of**  **7 what you need to block. The other side of**  **8 whether you want to consider it from a block**  **9 perspective is whether you want unanimity on**  **10 every issue.**  **11 If you think that you are never**  **12 going to get unanimity on every issue, you**  **13 need to think about that at the beginning of**  **14 the process because it determines whether you**  **15 want to spend time going through negotiations**  **16 where you know you are always going to have**  **17 problems with one or two probably.**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey with**  **19 a question for Doug and the Department.**  **20 In The Federal Register, with the**  **21 list of representatives that selected members,**  **22 it doesn't say whether DOE representatives and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the ASRAC representative are voting members or**  **2 not. And I think that, if we are going to**  **3 have something that is not unanimous, it**  **4 really actually matters whether these are**  **5 voting members.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, my**  **7 understanding is that we are voting members.**  **8 And I will have to go back and look at the**  **9 notice again and confer with Dan. But that is**  **10 my understanding, is that the two ASRAC**  **11 members, Dave Hungerford and Scott Harris, and**  **12 me as a member of DOE, are all voting members**  **13 in this.**  **14 And I think that is important**  **15 because, if the Department is not voting in**  **16 it, then, really, what would be the effect of**  **17 what we were advising and including the**  **18 Department's ideas as far as what the**  **19 Department is going to do?**  **20 MEMBER ROCKY: Bryan Rocky from**  **21 Johnson Controls.**  **22 So, Harvey, again, it says "other** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 selected members" on The Federal Register**  **2 note. To me, that "other" means that we are**  **3 joining the three that are listed above.**  **4 MEMBER SACHS: Good, and thank**  **5 you. In that sense, although this group is a**  **6 little bit smaller, I think, than the**  **7 commercial group last summer, I think that**  **8 that consensus means all but two negative**  **9 votes was a good working model, and we might**  **10 start with that. It certainly forced me to**  **11 think real hard before I voted no.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Harvey, so given your**  **13 past experience, it might be helpful. Was**  **14 there anything about having a two-member**  **15 requirement that you thought, "Oh, I really**  **16 wish we didn't have this." because of that**  **17 experience?**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: No.**  **19 MEMBER BALLO: This is Tim Ballo**  **20 with Earthjustice.**  **21 I just want to second Harvey's**  **22 support for retaining the two-member** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 requirement from the last Working Group,**  **2 although I am not wedded to two. It could be**  **3 three.**  **4 And one of the reasons I think it**  **5 was really useful -- and this goes back to**  **6 Washington being kind of an ugly town and this**  **7 being a sausage-making process -- but, you**  **8 know, for someone to strenuously object to a**  **9 certain provision that they could never agree**  **10 to without derailing the entire process, and**  **11 with knowledge that will not derail the entire**  **12 process, it affords someone the luxury of**  **13 objecting on principle without screwing things**  **14 up for everybody else.**  **15 (Laughter.)**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: No, that is the way**  **17 I use it.**  **18 MEMBER HARRIS: My laughter does**  **19 not in any way signify that I disagree. It is**  **20 a comment on Washington, D.C.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: And that was Scott**  **22 Harris.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 This is Doug Rawald.**  **2 So, I would say that we appreciate**  **3 your candor. I mean, that is a very candid**  **4 comment.**  **5 So, there is some need for some**  **6 people to save face for their industry groups,**  **7 but they may want to have a resolution that**  **8 works and some clarity, even though the**  **9 clarity isn't what they want. And so, knowing**  **10 that their objection will be good for their**  **11 interests, but also will ultimately help**  **12 resolve the process, that may be something**  **13 that is important to them.**  **14 MEMBER HARRIS: This is Scott**  **15 Harris again.**  **16 The reason I had suggested or**  **17 agreed with Gary that three might be better**  **18 than two is that I think in a process like**  **19 this it is best if one very narrow point of**  **20 view can't derail the whole thing. And I**  **21 think, if you take a look around the table and**  **22 the various interests represented, many of us** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have views in common or interest in common.**  **2 And I just think, if you have three rather**  **3 than two, while it doesn't sound like a big**  **4 difference, it requires at least I think two**  **5 different perspectives to stop the process**  **6 from moving forward or makes it more likely**  **7 you will have two different perspectives,**  **8 rather than two companies with perhaps exactly**  **9 the same interest and derail the whole**  **10 process, not to focus on companies or two**  **11 interest groups, or whatever.**  **12 And so, I think three gives you,**  **13 out of this group, gives you a better sense of**  **14 reaching what is truly the idea of consensus,**  **15 which I don't believe, statutes to the**  **16 contrary notwithstanding, I don't believe**  **17 consensus means unanimity. I believe**  **18 unanimity means unanimity.**  **19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **20 Gary, representing the California IOUs.**  **21 And I strongly support Scott. To**  **22 go back to the Pumps Working Group, which I'm** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 familiar with, one of the issues there was**  **2 whether or not circulator pumps should be in**  **3 the scope of regulations or not.**  **4 And for those of you that don't**  **5 know, circulator pumps are these little, tiny**  **6 pumps that circulate domestic hot water, so**  **7 you can have instant hot water at the tap or**  **8 circulate hot or cold water through the floor,**  **9 so you can have radiant heating systems.**  **10 And the energy-efficiency lobby**  **11 generally wanted to address circulator pumps**  **12 because it represented about two-thirds or**  **13 more than half of the energy use of pumps all**  **14 together. However, it would have been**  **15 possible, had a couple of circulator pump**  **16 manufacturers not wanted to deal with that,**  **17 for them to derail that with two votes. With**  **18 three votes, less likely because it is less**  **19 likely that that one special interest could**  **20 prevail.**  **21 So, I think three to derail is an**  **22 important number. And we have that same issue** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the interests of people in this room.**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **3 White.**  **4 Speaking as an interest group that**  **5 probably is only two members of the committee**  **6 -- the contractors I think are only two chairs**  **7 here -- I don't believe that we are talking**  **8 about unanimity in the consensus. I think**  **9 that is correct.**  **10 Two votes or three votes doesn't**  **11 really help the two-person representation.**  **12 Personally, I think it is incumbent upon us,**  **13 if we feel strongly about something, to make**  **14 our position clear, and we have to be pretty**  **15 well-founded to be able to explain ourselves**  **16 and convince others of the need that we face.**  **17 And if we can't do that, then it has to go**  **18 forward in its normal process.**  **19 Two or three votes either way**  **20 doesn't really make a difference to me. But**  **21 I don't think we are talking about unanimity.**  **22 I don't think we want to go that route.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Chuck, this is Doug**  **2 Rawald.**  **3 So, what I hear you saying is that**  **4 you think there's more onus on the members to**  **5 be persuasive in their position if they have**  **6 the possibility of two votes causing there to**  **7 be or three votes causing the vote to not be**  **8 a consensus?**  **9 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck White**  **10 again.**  **11 Yes, and I think you could get to**  **12 the point where somebody just sits back**  **13 because I know I've got enough to block it.**  **14 So, I don't have to share, come forth with all**  **15 the information, not saying that that would**  **16 happen, but it could.**  **17 And if I feel strongly that this**  **18 is a contractor issue, then I need to make you**  **19 aware, and I should have good reasons of why**  **20 that is, and not just be doing something**  **21 because I find it inconvenient or it is a way**  **22 to polish my badge, or whatever aspect of it** 

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### 1 it is. It has to be something that is truly **2 important and makes a difference to my 3 constituents.**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen 5 from Rheem.**  **6 The way this is worded, it says, 7 "means no more than two negative votes". So,**  **8 that means you have to have three votes, is 9 that right?**  **10 MR. EISNER: If you have three 11 votes, it doesn't pass.**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: Right. So, it is 13 still the three that I think everyone wants,**  **14 or some of the committee members are 15 advocating for. So, you have to have three**  **16 votes for it not to go forward. Does that 17 address that? Or do you want it to be four**  **18 votes to not go forward? 19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: No. This is**  **20 Gary. 21 Thank you so much, Karen, for**  **22 pointing that out. What I wanted was three**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 votes to block and two votes for consensus**  **2 means you need three votes to block. So, I am**  **3 in agreement, if I understand it right, with**  **4 the current wording.**  **5 MR. EISNER: The typical process**  **6 would be you would discuss a section. I would**  **7 say, "Do we have any objections?" If you say**  **8 it is three to block, three people have to**  **9 raise their hands. If you say it is two to**  **10 block, two have to raise their hands, and we**  **11 can't go forward until we resolve those**  **12 concerns.**  **13 Understand, and again, two worked**  **14 very well. I think a lot of people agree,**  **15 maybe everybody agreed that was in the last**  **16 negotiated rulemaking, two worked very well.**  **17 But two means that in every**  **18 instance at least one of those two may be**  **19 getting voted down. So, that could cause**  **20 problems. "Well, I keep losing this, and I'm**  **21 not getting anything I want." So, you have to**  **22 remember that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I think it worked very, very well**  **2 because everybody around the room didn't want**  **3 that to happen. Almost every vote -- and Dan**  **4 left; oh, no, Dan is still here. Dan may be**  **5 able to correct me. We had two as the number.**  **6 We probably addressed in the neighborhood of**  **7 200-plus separate issues on which we took a**  **8 vote. Karen, you remember; you guys remember.**  **9 I think we had only two or three in which we**  **10 didn't have unanimity, absolute consensus**  **11 around the table.**  **12 The process worked very well**  **13 because the people wanted it to work very**  **14 well. They didn't want to keep shutting out**  **15 one interest.**  **16 All right, I could be very candid**  **17 about it. The government is an interest by**  **18 itself. The government could say no to every**  **19 one of them, and you guys could keep passing**  **20 one after another. You don't want that. That**  **21 won't work for you in the end. Because if you**  **22 vote on 50 issues and they lose in every one** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of them, do you think they are going to go**  **2 back and recommend to the Secretary that the**  **3 Secretary approve the final rule, the proposed**  **4 rule?**  **5 So, just remember what it means.**  **6 That is why I said it is not a matter of**  **7 whether you have 24 in favor or 25 in favor.**  **8 It is how many people raise their hand and say**  **9 no and what they can block.**  **10 Like you said, there are two**  **11 people from your interest. Both of you could**  **12 say no. You will lose some. But, if you keep**  **13 losing every one, you may not want to stay at**  **14 the table.**  **15 So, there are arguments that are**  **16 very, very subtle. It really depends on what**  **17 your objective is.**  **18 People were worried in this last**  **19 negotiation. They wanted to make sure that**  **20 you needed more than two votes to block it,**  **21 and they never had a problem with it. In**  **22 fact, one of the issues was the kind of issue** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that Tim was talking about where the two**  **2 people wanted to make a point. They didn't**  **3 want to stop it from going forward. It was**  **4 the only time when you got two votes, and**  **5 then, there were a couple I think with one**  **6 vote.**  **7 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **8 Gary again.**  **9 Just kind of assessing where we**  **10 are, it seems like there is a high level of**  **11 agreement that consensus ought not to be 100**  **12 percent. It ought to be something less than**  **13 that.**  **14 And if I understood Karen right,**  **15 the recommendation that is on the screen now**  **16 is two does not prevent consensus; three would**  **17 block consensus. And I'm okay with that.**  **18 MR. EISNER: So, we would keep the**  **19 number at two?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **21 Rawald.**  **22 Gary, a couple of things. One,** 

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### 1 what is on the board is not a recommendation. **2 It was what was past practice. But it seems 3 to be recommended, at least from a couple of**  **4 folks we have heard from. 5 We have been hearing a lot from**  **6 people that are the usual suspects in these 7 meetings, including me, who is a big talker.**  **8 And I do want to invite those people who have 9 not spoken or who are not typically**  **10 comfortable in this environment to at least 11 ask a question or voice your opinion, if you**  **12 have one. I don't want you to feel like 13 you're being pushed into this.**  **14 This is very important. And so, 15 you definitely can take some time to think**  **16 about it and talk about it some more. So, 17 yes.**  **18 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter, 19 representing HARDI.**  **20 Since I am the only one 21 representing the distribution, I would like**  **22 three votes.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Thank you.**  **2 (Laughter.)**  **3 MR. RAWALD: You are saying you**  **4 would like your vote to count three times? Is**  **5 that what you are saying?**  **6 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth**  **7 with NRDC.**  **8 So, this is my first energy**  **9 rulemaking, and I guess a question. To what**  **10 extent would the dissenting opinions be**  **11 recorded? I appreciate that the Department is**  **12 here. So, you would at least be heard.**  **13 And maybe this comes later on what**  **14 are you agreeing to in terms of, well, to two**  **15 dissenting opinions are recorded and we still**  **16 move forward. Then, you are all committing to**  **17 that. Is it at least on record what that**  **18 perspective is?**  **19 MR. EISNER: The court reporter is**  **20 keeping a complete record.**  **21 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.**  **22 MR. EISNER: What we did in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 last one -- and I would assume, unless people**  **2 wanted to do it in a different way. This may**  **3 be a little different. We may not have the**  **4 breakdown into the number of issues we had**  **5 where we were voting on details for each rule,**  **6 like whether filters counted when you were**  **7 doing something.**  **8 But we recorded the votes. It**  **9 would say unanimous or it would say one**  **10 negative. And I cannot remember -- Dan, maybe**  **11 you remember or some of the others remember --**  **12 whether we recorded who was the negative, who**  **13 were the negative votes.**  **14 But I think the written document,**  **15 written record we kept beyond the court**  **16 reporter's transcript at least said there were**  **17 one or two negative votes.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **19 So, the options are pretty open**  **20 here because we are making the rules. And so,**  **21 one thing you can keep in mind -- and we will**  **22 talk about this later -- is that Neil will** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 present a report at the end of this. And so,**  **2 if there is a significant minority opinion**  **3 that has been voted down, we have a**  **4 requirement, a ground rule that that minority**  **5 be presented to ASRAC, in addition to the**  **6 majority that was what was passed. I mean,**  **7 that could be a ground rule.**  **8 MR. EISNER: As a matter of fact,**  **9 that is the way we recorded it.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **11 MR. EISNER: The report to ASRAC**  **12 said there was one negative vote on this one**  **13 or there were two negative votes on this one,**  **14 but it passed. If there were three, it**  **15 wouldn't have been in --**  **16 MR. RAWALD: But what I hear**  **17 Elizabeth saying is --**  **18 MR. EISNER: We made that on the**  **19 part of the parties, but we did not give a**  **20 position because usually the position was**  **21 clear that they objected to the standard; they**  **22 objected to including filters in the measure** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or not including filters in the measure.**  **2 Yes?**  **3 MEMBER ROCKY: Bryan Rocky,**  **4 Johnson Controls.**  **5 So, one of the things that comes**  **6 to my mind on this is not so much the vote**  **7 process, but when we talk about Section (4),**  **8 Item d, agreement, no challenge, which we have**  **9 not talked about, the text in there talks**  **10 about individuals agreeing not to take a**  **11 position "unless they have previously**  **12 expressed dissenting views".**  **13 And so, we are going to get into**  **14 this discussion again relative to that. So,**  **15 I think it is going to be important that, if**  **16 you do have a dissenting view, that that needs**  **17 to be identified in the record, unless we**  **18 change the wording on Section (4)d as we come**  **19 up to it. It has to be identified who has**  **20 that dissenting view and what that view is.**  **21 MR. EISNER: And again, the court**  **22 reporter is getting it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Are you saying,**  **2 Rocky, then that is forcing people to vote no**  **3 when they might have been willing to go along,**  **4 because they have to get their dissenting view**  **5 on record?**  **6 MEMBER ROCKY: I think, Glenn --**  **7 this is Bryan Rocky -- I think this is going**  **8 to be an important discussion at certain**  **9 points when someone has a very strong negative**  **10 view of what we have got, and it is overridden**  **11 by the community, by the group, with the two**  **12 negative votes. It doesn't block it, but it**  **13 is something that that individual feels very,**  **14 very strongly about.**  **15 The way Section (4)d states, you**  **16 have no recourse unless you have expressed**  **17 that in the committee as an individual later**  **18 on. So, it does become important to identify**  **19 that.**  **20 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **21 White.**  **22 I think we are here in good faith.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And if you do have something you really feel**  **2 strongly about, you can't sit on it and, then,**  **3 come back later and say, "I didn't like that.**  **4 I wanted chocolate ice cream, and they didn't**  **5 have any." You've got to speak up now. You**  **6 can't sit at this table and nod your head, and**  **7 then, go get on the phone and say, "We've got**  **8 to kill this." Now is the time to have that**  **9 discussion.**  **10 MEMBER SACHS: Rocky, this is**  **11 Harvey.**  **12 Bryan, your comment ties back to**  **13 Elizabeth's in the sense that I am not sure**  **14 that expressing a dissenting view is**  **15 necessarily equivalent to voting no. We have**  **16 these other mechanisms. So, I agree it is an**  **17 important point, but I think that is a subset**  **18 of what dissenting view means.**  **19 MEMBER ROCKY: This is Bryan.**  **20 So, I guess I read that is why we**  **21 are talking about ground rules now.**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: Yes.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROCKY: Because if the view**  **2 is that -- and I actually agree with what**  **3 Chuck said. Bring it up. If you have got an**  **4 issue, we want to work together and not sit**  **5 back in the weeds and later on throw hand**  **6 grenades out on the table. We want to talk**  **7 about it and we want to bring it forward.**  **8 But we are going to have to talk**  **9 about Section (4)d and what that means coming**  **10 up.**  **11 MR. EISNER: You really want to**  **12 bring it up early, because everybody may be**  **13 able to fix it for you without harming their**  **14 position, either. You don't want to wait**  **15 until later to bring up, "I could have lived**  **16 with that. I didn't know that was a problem."**  **17 MEMBER ROCKY: So, again, this is**  **18 Bryan.**  **19 So, just relative to this, I am**  **20 all in favor of the discussion we have had.**  **21 Two negative votes means the committee carries**  **22 on; three to block. That is 10 percent of our** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 voting members right now. That allows you to**  **2 take a position and move forward, but you are**  **3 still working within the group.**  **4 MR. HURST: I'm John Hurst with**  **5 Lennox.**  **6 I was just going to say I don't**  **7 think the votes were actually recorded by name**  **8 and by entity last time, but it is very clear,**  **9 if you go back and read the transcript, who**  **10 had a dissenting view. So, you know, the way**  **11 I look at it is you don't necessarily have to,**  **12 because if you read the transcript, it was**  **13 very apparent and people weren't shy.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Yes?**  **15 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena,**  **16 National Association of Homebuilders.**  **17 In reading this paragraph, it**  **18 states that these are votes by the members at**  **19 the meeting. So, if you don't have all of**  **20 your members at the meeting, are they**  **21 considered at the meeting if they are on the**  **22 phone?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. EISNER: Yes. **2 MR. RAWALD: Yes. 3 MR. SURRENA: So, if there are**  **4 three or four members who don't make the call 5 or can't be at the meeting, the number stays**  **6 the same, but your percentages change 7 dramatically.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Yes, but people can 9 send alternates.**  **10 Other discussion? 11 (No response.)**  **12 All right. We seem to have some 13 thought about two.**  **14 Anybody object to two? So, in 15 other words, leaving it as it is now?**  **16 (No response.) 17 No objection? Okay, let's go on**  **18 to the next section. 19 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Before we go to**  **20 the next section -- this is Glenn Hourahan -- 21 the gentleman who was just up brought up a**  **22 question, an inquiry that came to my mind.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, we can have alternates. Can we also have**  **2 proxies? That is not addressed in this**  **3 document. Am I able to assign my -- I am not**  **4 able to make the meeting. I don't have an**  **5 alternate, say. Am I able to assign someone**  **6 on the committee to vote for me?**  **7 MR. EISNER: Why would you not**  **8 send an alternate? Your alternate is also**  **9 unavailable?**  **10 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Perhaps.**  **11 MR. EISNER: I don't know how you**  **12 -- I have never heard of that because of the**  **13 alternates.**  **14 MR. COHEN: So, we haven't**  **15 permitted proxies in the past, in part,**  **16 because of that grouping issue. I can go**  **17 around and gather up proxies and kind of vote**  **18 four, five, or six votes at one time.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **20 I was trying to think. I thought,**  **21 Gary, at some point in the pumps there was a**  **22 proxy given to the facilitator. That didn't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 happen? I thought that did happen, actually,**  **2 for some reason. I thought possibly Steve**  **3 Rosenstock had given a proxy to Doug Brookman,**  **4 and he is not here anymore.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Technically, a proxy**  **6 is someone else who is there who has got a**  **7 vote. You are representing slightly different**  **8 interests. You can't necessarily respond**  **9 effectively to the information that is brought**  **10 out in the debate. So, for that reason, I**  **11 suspect that is why they didn't want one**  **12 person to be able to collect proxies as**  **13 opposed to having alternates come in by phone.**  **14 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Thank you.**  **15 MR. EISNER: There are ways to**  **16 handle this. We generally -- and we are going**  **17 to talk about it this afternoon -- are going**  **18 to identify what we are going to discuss and**  **19 when we are going to discuss it. So, if you**  **20 can't make a meeting and you know you can't**  **21 make a meeting, and your alternate can't make**  **22 a meeting, there is always the possibility of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 asking the group to postpone discussion of**  **2 that particular issue until you can be at the**  **3 meeting.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug from**  **5 DOE.**  **6 The voting is important, but also**  **7 the discussion is extremely important for our**  **8 purposes of making the rule. And so, having**  **9 a proxy, that eliminates that ability to**  **10 actually have a discussion about why you want**  **11 to vote a particular way.**  **12 And so, that is why I think, from**  **13 my point of view, without having talked to the**  **14 Department or conferred, I would recommend**  **15 against having a proxy process, because I**  **16 think having that discussion is so important**  **17 to what we do when we make rules.**  **18 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **19 Doria with Ingersoll Rand.**  **20 I support the two as it is worded**  **21 currently. The question I would have is I**  **22 think all of us here are charged, obviously,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with making decisions for our respective**  **2 organizations. But I think there could**  **3 certainly be instances where we might need to**  **4 go back and confer with various**  **5 constituencies. So, that gets you to the**  **6 question of, do you need a vote to have a**  **7 vote, right? And would you need to, then,**  **8 apply the same strictures to saying, well, we**  **9 know we need time to go back and readdress**  **10 certain issues, and then come back?**  **11 Essentially, would it follow the same process,**  **12 is my question.**  **13 MR. EISNER: These things are**  **14 completely open. You can say, "I need more**  **15 time to be able to vote" --**  **16 MEMBER DORIA: Okay.**  **17 MR. EISNER: -- or "We need to**  **18 take a break so I can go communicate with**  **19 others in the room, call back and talk to some**  **20 people who are not here, get whatever advice."**  **21 This is common.**  **22 In fact, my experience in the last** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 one is that it happened less than what I saw**  **2 based on my years when I was in the government**  **3 and people would take two-hour breaks to sit**  **4 around a room and try to work out things with**  **5 other people.**  **6 MEMBER DORIA: Okay. Thank you.**  **7 MR. EISNER: So, again, back to**  **8 this. We are talking (3)a. We are okay with**  **9 leaving it exactly as worded? Anybody object?**  **10 MR. RAWALD: So, (3)a, the first**  **11 sentence. We haven't discussed the second**  **12 sentence, which is abstention shall not be**  **13 construed as a negative vote. So, I think**  **14 that is worth at least some discussion as**  **15 well.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Right. That is a**  **17 good point.**  **18 Anybody have any comments on that?**  **19 Some people don't want to take a**  **20 position. So, they just want to say, "I**  **21 abstain."**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I liked having that freedom in the**  **2 process. I think I only used it once or maybe**  **3 twice, but it certainly was some flexibility**  **4 that sent a signal without affecting the**  **5 outcome.**  **6 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary.**  **7 Me, too. I support that.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Anybody want to speak**  **9 against it?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 Any problem with leaving sentence**  **12 two as it is?**  **13 (No response.)**  **14 All right. So, we are okay with**  **15 no objections to (3)a.**  **16 All right. Let's talk about**  **17 subgroups, e(1). As I said, you may want to**  **18 break into caucuses. You may want to take**  **19 time to just go talk to people in the room as**  **20 individuals. Or you may want to make phone**  **21 calls to people. You also may want to form a**  **22 subgroup to work on a particular issue that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you don't think everybody has to be at.**  **2 As an example, in the last**  **3 negotiations we broke down into some groups,**  **4 subgroups, based on products. So, people**  **5 could work out what they thought we ought to**  **6 do with particular products, and then, come**  **7 back and talk about that.**  **8 Yes, in the back of the room?**  **9 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie**  **10 with ACCA.**  **11 There is a third sentence to a,**  **12 3(a). I just wanted some clarification of**  **13 what it means.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Am I missing it?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: It is the "All**  **16 agreements reached during the negotiations are**  **17 tentative and being made by members present at**  **18 the meeting or their alternates who attend the**  **19 meeting in their stead until the Working Group**  **20 reaches an agreement that is binding on the**  **21 parties."**  **22 MR. EISNER: Okay. I'm sorry I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 missed that.**  **2 Any discussion on that?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Well, yes, maybe.**  **4 So, I guess the question from Charlie was,**  **5 what does that mean? And maybe you can give**  **6 us some clarity on that, because I wasn't part**  **7 of that Working Group, what you meant by that.**  **8 MR. EISNER: I just bring people**  **9 to consensus.**  **10 (Laughter.)**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, what did**  **12 you do, as a member of that Working Group?**  **13 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey, and**  **14 I would like to defer to Tim.**  **15 MEMBER BALLO: This is Tim.**  **16 My recollection is that we had**  **17 approached that we worked through distinct**  **18 issues and took a vote on each distinct issue.**  **19 That, however, just sort of set the tentative**  **20 position for the Working Group. At the end of**  **21 the process, we went through the whole list of**  **22 issues and re-voted to make sure that everyone** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 was onboard with the entire agreement. So, I**  **2 think everything is tentative until we get**  **3 complete agreement on the whole enchilada.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this is**  **5 Doug Rawald.**  **6 So, there is a final term sheet**  **7 that we will all vote on in toto about whether**  **8 we agree to that. That will be made up of all**  **9 the individual votes we have said. So,**  **10 everything is tentative until we get to that**  **11 final million-dollar kind of term sheet that**  **12 is going to go ASRAC. Is that what you are**  **13 saying?**  **14 MR. EISNER: Much of what you talk**  **15 about interacts with other things. And people**  **16 said, "Well, I've got to see how we come out**  **17 on something later on."**  **18 Generally speaking, I am not aware**  **19 of anybody changing a position. You are**  **20 making a commitment and negotiations are**  **21 proceeding on that. But you still have the**  **22 right to say, "Now that I see how this fits in** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with that, it is not going to work."**  **2 MEMBER HARRIS: Yes, I think there**  **3 is nothing at all unusual about this, right?**  **4 In any negotiation, you go point-by-point, but**  **5 it is not a deal until you see how it all**  **6 comes together. And maybe you end up losing**  **7 on some point that was critical to you further**  **8 down the line, which blows the whole thing up**  **9 for you. So, that way, people can agree to**  **10 something, knowing that dependent upon if**  **11 something else works out, they will be okay.**  **12 And if not, they can still back out. And that**  **13 moves the process along. It is a failsafe.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Right. Some people**  **15 will specifically state, "I am in favor of**  **16 this, but it is partly dependent on what we're**  **17 going to talk about," just as somebody**  **18 mentioned --**  **19 MEMBER HARRIS: But the point is,**  **20 you don't have to do that on everything --**  **21 MR. EISNER: Right.**  **22 MEMBER HARRIS: -- because people** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are going to be doing that constantly. You**  **2 just get a failsafe vote at the end, and it is**  **3 not a deal until it is a deal. And I think**  **4 that makes a lot of sense.**  **5 MR. EISNER: But people sitting**  **6 around the room don't want to come back four**  **7 weeks later, after a couple of intervening**  **8 meetings, and have somebody say, "No. I have**  **9 rethought my position on seven of these issues**  **10 and I would like to say no." That is the kind**  **11 of thing you want to avoid doing. You are**  **12 here in good faith. If you miss something or**  **13 if you see now that it is not going to work**  **14 the way you thought it was going to work,**  **15 people aren't going to have a problem with you**  **16 saying that.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **18 I am really glad Charlie raised**  **19 this point, now that I think about it, because**  **20 I certainly didn't think about it a lot a**  **21 moment ago.**  **22 But the concern would be that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 sometimes you do the vote as a closing issue**  **2 and it is over. And then, suddenly, two**  **3 meetings later it is back up again. You're**  **4 like, why is this issue back up again, and how**  **5 has their position changed?**  **6 So, what I would ask is that we**  **7 consider possibly adding the language that, if**  **8 somebody is going to change their tentative**  **9 position, if they voted one way and they are**  **10 going to vote differently, that they explain**  **11 why. I think that that is important, to know**  **12 why someone's position has changed or**  **13 something like that, so we can understand,**  **14 okay, what has changed here. Was it because**  **15 of this vote three days later I changed my**  **16 position on what I said to you earlier?**  **17 Because it would be difficult for**  **18 the group of people to just, by their**  **19 druthers, change their mind on what they voted**  **20 on previously. So, I think it is helpful to**  **21 have them articulate a reason.**  **22 MEMBER HARRIS: You know, you** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 don't need to put everything in writing. I**  **2 mean, we are all going to be sitting around**  **3 this table for a lot of time.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **5 MEMBER HARRIS: And I just can't**  **6 imagine a situation where someone is going to**  **7 agree to something, come back two weeks later,**  **8 and say, "Never mind," without explaining it.**  **9 It is a constitution we are drafting. We**  **10 don't have to draft the regulations here.**  **11 I just think you can leave some**  **12 things to the good faith of the group to**  **13 resolve this.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **15 MEMBER HARRIS: Other than that,**  **16 we will be fly-specking this thing until our**  **17 time runs out.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Anybody in favor of**  **19 adding language? Anybody want to speak about**  **20 that?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: I have in favor of**  **22 adding language. I will put forward that I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think it is helpful to have some language.**  **2 MEMBER HARRIS: Yes, lawyers, you**  **3 can't trust them.**  **4 (Laughter.)**  **5 MR. EISNER: Yes?**  **6 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie with ACCA**  **7 again.**  **8 You laid out a situation where**  **9 there would be a number of votes, and then,**  **10 later potentially another vote. So, let's say**  **11 there were 20 votes, and then, later you**  **12 talked about a term sheet. Would the term**  **13 sheet be the 20 votes again or just a final**  **14 approval of the whole package under this**  **15 language?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **17 Charlie, I know you are directing**  **18 that at me, but I wasn't part of that past**  **19 experience. So, I will have to defer to the**  **20 folks that were part of the Commercial Working**  **21 Group, where this came from, and see how they**  **22 dealt with it there.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER BALLO: So, yes, we did go**  **2 through the term sheet point-by-point,**  **3 although for most of those that was a very**  **4 quick process because there was very little**  **5 change from the initial votes that were taken.**  **6 MR. McCRUDDEN: Thanks. That is**  **7 very helpful.**  **8 To follow up, I don't know if**  **9 there is a need to put on record why you are**  **10 voting, whether you are changing your vote or**  **11 voting. I think that is just the vote. But**  **12 I think I agree with Scott. I think this is**  **13 sort of a deliberative process. No one is**  **14 just going to, I don't think anyone is going**  **15 to up and say, "I am voting no after I voted**  **16 yes." I think they would probably give some**  **17 reason. I think we all would know what that**  **18 is.**  **19 So, I am okay with the language.**  **20 I think the language looks good as it is. I**  **21 will leave it at that.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Anybody else want to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 speak on this?**  **2 MEMBER SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **3 Shepherd from AHRI.**  **4 I agree, and we can always just**  **5 ask them. I mean, it is a dialog that we are**  **6 having.**  **7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Others besides**  **8 Doug disagree?**  **9 (No response.)**  **10 Do you still want the record to**  **11 reflect that you object?**  **12 MR. RAWALD: No, I just want to**  **13 make sure we have a discussion of it. So,**  **14 everyone else is comfortable with that, then**  **15 let's go forward.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Subgroups. Any**  **17 comments on that?**  **18 One of the things to think about**  **19 is, if you form a subgroup, whether you want**  **20 to let the people who are sitting in the back**  **21 of the room or other people who are similarly**  **22 situated participate by phone or otherwise in** 

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### 1 a meeting. As worded, I think that this says **2 that they can. 3 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **4 The subgroups in that Commercial 5 Equipment, in general, were by type of**  **6 commercial equipment. As I am thinking about 7 the list of other selected representatives, I**  **8 can see some caucuses with some ambiguous 9 edges. We have at least one manufacturer who**  **10 is actively involved in a large scale in 11 distribution, for example.**  **12 So, if we saw a need for the 13 distributors, or let's call them the**  **14 downstream people, to get together and talk, 15 there could be some membership issues that**  **16 those people would have to resolve, but I 17 don't see any reason to change the language,**  **18 but just to be thinking about the fact that 19 here subgroups are likely to be somewhat**  **20 different from what we saw in the equipment 21 types in that last process.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Other comments?**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Anybody object to this language staying in,**  **2 paragraph (1)?**  **3 (No response.)**  **4 So, let's go on to paragraph (2),**  **5 "Appropriate support". It is always easy to**  **6 require DOE to give appropriate support. It**  **7 shouldn't be a burden for you, right, Doug?**  **8 Anybody have a problem with that?**  **9 (No response.)**  **10 Okay, subparagraph (2) is okay.**  **11 Subparagraph (3)? They basically**  **12 can't make decisions. Okay, anybody have a**  **13 problem? Anybody object?**  **14 (No response.)**  **15 All right, subparagraph (4). Just**  **16 a technical thing about when they can be**  **17 scheduled. Anybody have a problem with (4)?**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **19 White.**  **20 Those could very well be on the**  **21 phone, a conference call, not necessarily --**  **22 when we say "meet in the same location," it** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 doesn't mean this room.**  **2 MR. EISNER: No.**  **3 MEMBER WHITE: It could be my desk**  **4 telephone.**  **5 MR. EISNER: This I think almost**  **6 anticipates some kind of regular meetings of**  **7 a subgroup whenever possible.**  **8 MR. HURST: John Hurst from**  **9 Lennox.**  **10 That doesn't preclude us from**  **11 taking a timeout and walking out in the**  **12 hallway as a subgroup and talking about**  **13 issues, correct?**  **14 MR. EISNER: No.**  **15 MR. HURST: Okay.**  **16 MR. EISNER: I don't read it that**  **17 way. Does anybody else read it that way?**  **18 (No response.)**  **19 Okay, anybody have a problem with**  **20 (4)?**  **21 (No response.)**  **22 All right, c, just to --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER NOLL: I have a quick**  **2 question.**  **3 Sorry. Elizabeth at NRDC.**  **4 The subgroup as a whole, is that**  **5 going to be directed by the Working Group?**  **6 Like we decide as a group what subgroups will**  **7 -- or is that an informal process ad hoc?**  **8 MR. EISNER: I believe this**  **9 envisions something that this group sets up.**  **10 We want you to go off and look at this issue**  **11 and come back to us with some recommendations**  **12 on how to handle it.**  **13 There are other ways where you can**  **14 break out and caucus in the hallway or you can**  **15 say, "Hey, I want to phone three or four of**  **16 the people who are at the meeting with me and**  **17 see if we can work out our differences over**  **18 the phone between meetings."**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Those are all things**  **21 you can do more formally. Those are things**  **22 that I can join, if you think I can help get** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you to consensus on something like that.**  **2 There are also things you can do completely on**  **3 your own.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is**  **5 Doug Rawald.**  **6 So, just to give you an idea of**  **7 how it worked, there were a couple of**  **8 subgroups, as they discussed, with this**  **9 Commercial Certification Work Group. And they**  **10 actually had a court reporter. They had a**  **11 webinar. They had people attending by phone.**  **12 So, it was very much like this meeting, only**  **13 it had less attendees who were directed on a**  **14 very specific task to bring back to the bigger**  **15 group and say, "Okay, here's what we think**  **16 about it."**  **17 So, we are not talking about the**  **18 informal caucuses you do among your own. That**  **19 is not recorded and not part of the official**  **20 record.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Okay, c, "Discontinue**  **22 if unproductive." Basically, this is saying,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 if we are not making progress, we shouldn't**  **2 waste our time and continue trying to**  **3 negotiate. That is going to be something you**  **4 are going to generally do by consensus: does**  **5 anybody think it is worth proceeding?**  **6 Does anybody have a problem with**  **7 that?**  **8 (No response.)**  **9 Okay, let's leave that and go on**  **10 to (4), "Agreement, term sheet, and supporting**  **11 analysis". Doug has mentioned the term sheet**  **12 a few times.**  **13 Oh, I'm sorry, "Deadline for**  **14 negotiations". October 30th is the date that**  **15 ASRAC or at least that the agency put in its**  **16 notice. ASRAC I think said the end of October.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **18 Rawald.**  **19 For just anyone following the**  **20 record, the example we have was August 30th,**  **21 2013, which was the date applicable to the old**  **22 group. We are going to change it to one that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is applicable to our group here.**  **2 MR. EISNER: Okay. As I mentioned**  **3 earlier, if we are making very good progress,**  **4 we all agree we should ask for more time. It**  **5 is not uncommon for the group to do that,**  **6 establish a new deadline. Indeed, the group**  **7 would probably say, "We're close, but we're**  **8 not there. We're not going to make it by**  **9 October 30th. We think the date should be**  **10 extended to December 15th." We can do that.**  **11 That doesn't mean ASRAC will accept it, but we**  **12 can ask for more time.**  **13 And we are going to talk about the**  **14 schedule this afternoon. We are going to talk**  **15 about what we can get done, meeting on what**  **16 would be a normal schedule for these types of**  **17 proceedings. And I want to hear from you on**  **18 whether you think that is reasonable, whether**  **19 there is enough time.**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **21 We don't have to resolve it right**  **22 now, but that particular date is one when I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 expect to be out of country. And I would a**  **2 whole lot be happier if it were October 15th**  **3 or November 15th. Well, this is the date that**  **4 it is actually submitted to ASRAC.**  **5 MR. EISNER: I understand, but**  **6 that is sometime before that to make the final**  **7 decision.**  **8 MEMBER SACHS: Aha. Oh, so that**  **9 is not our vote on the term sheet?**  **10 MR. EISNER: You are going to vote**  **11 on the term sheet before October 30th, yes.**  **12 MEMBER SACHS: Thank you.**  **13 MR. EISNER: I forget the dates**  **14 last time, but I think it was half a month**  **15 before it was actually typed-up and submitted.**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: Thank you. I will**  **17 read more carefully next time.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Okay. So, anybody**  **19 have a problem, want to raise any objection to**  **20 this?**  **21 (No response.)**  **22 Again, as I said, we may want to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 come back to this after we talk about the**  **2 schedule this afternoon.**  **3 Okay, the agreement, the term**  **4 sheet, and supporting analysis comes up first.**  **5 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **6 Hourahan.**  **7 It looks like that second sentence**  **8 could just be struck in its entirety. I don't**  **9 think it applies to the situation.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Anybody have an**  **11 objection with deleting that?**  **12 MEMBER SACHS: The only objection**  **13 is that maybe we want make it parenthetical or**  **14 something. But, if this one winds up being**  **15 the template for the next one, where it is**  **16 relevant, we will have lost it.**  **17 MR. EISNER: Do you have any**  **18 resolution of that, any way you retain these**  **19 things for the future?**  **20 (No response.)**  **21 I think, if nothing else,**  **22 somebody, hopefully, will keep a copy of this** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 version.**  **2 Anything else?**  **3 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **4 Doria with Ingersoll Rand.**  **5 With regard to the first sentence,**  **6 "an agreement reached by the Working Group on**  **7 recommended regulations," as I understood it**  **8 from our earlier discussion, we talked about**  **9 the difference between a process plan and**  **10 regulation, that what we could be recommending**  **11 here could be broader than just regulations.**  **12 So, do we want to readdress that first**  **13 sentence?**  **14 MR. EISNER: Suggestions for**  **15 changes?**  **16 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Perhaps a broad**  **17 enough term, replacing "regulations" with the**  **18 word "input". So, "Recommended input will**  **19 take the form of...."**  **20 MR. EISNER: Comments on that?**  **21 MEMBER MEYERS: This is Karen with**  **22 Rheem.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Didn't we say "rule" in the**  **2 original, the goal?**  **3 MEMBER DORIA: So, it would be**  **4 "recommended rules"?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, Laura, in (3)a,**  **6 the recommendation, let's change it to "any**  **7 agreement reached by the Working Group on**  **8 recommended rules". There you go.**  **9 We have been using "rules" as a**  **10 plural.**  **11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else**  **12 in this paragraph?**  **13 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **14 with Allied Air.**  **15 You use the word "rule" in several**  **16 places, and we have said "rules" up above.**  **17 Should we make that correction throughout the**  **18 paragraph?**  **19 MR. EISNER: Here we are using**  **20 "proposed rule". We are using "proposed rule"**  **21 there.**  **22 Do you want to go with the Notice** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of Proposed Rulemaking throughout?**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: Can you go one more**  **3 level of magnification?**  **4 MR. EISNER: Can you read that**  **5 now?**  **6 We have got "recommended rules"**  **7 here. And then, we have got "proposed rule"**  **8 and "proposed rule", and then, "Notice of**  **9 Proposed Rulemaking".**  **10 Would you be more comfortable if**  **11 it said "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" in**  **12 each place?**  **13 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen**  **14 with Rheem.**  **15 I actually like the way it is**  **16 written because we are going to be divining**  **17 specific rules that will be incorporated into**  **18 the final rule. So, I actually like the**  **19 difference between the two. I mean, it is a**  **20 Notice of Proposed Rule," but we are coming**  **21 up, in this negotiation we are going to be**  **22 negotiating several different items that will** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 end up going into the proposed rule. So,**  **2 there will be several rules that will end up**  **3 in the final rule. So, I like the**  **4 differentiation.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody**  **6 disagree with that? Anybody want to change**  **7 it?**  **8 (No response.)**  **9 Okay, let's go on to b, "Statement**  **10 is basis for the Notice of Proposed**  **11 Rulemaking".**  **12 This gets at the issue we were**  **13 talking about earlier with consensus. That**  **14 doesn't include, for example, DOE and what**  **15 they will put in the document. So, you could**  **16 have DOE being one of two negative votes and**  **17 still have consensus on something they didn't**  **18 vote for. This is talking about how they can**  **19 handle it, if they want.**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **21 It seems to me the critical issue**  **22 is in line 1, the use of the term "unanimous** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 vote" instead of "consensus vote".**  **2 MR. EISNER: I think a "consensus**  **3 vote" may mean DOE doesn't agree with it.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. Harvey, as I**  **5 recall from the negotiation you were part of**  **6 last time, that was by design. Because the**  **7 concern was, well, if DOE is the dissenter,**  **8 what will DOE do with that recommendation?**  **9 So, folks really wanted to have some clarity**  **10 about whether DOE would be forced, over their**  **11 objection, to adopt a rule they didn't want to**  **12 adopt. And so, this was the agreed-upon**  **13 solution by the group, which was used, which**  **14 was how folks -- that is the rule that we**  **15 could issue resulting from that negotiation.**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: Yes, if it works,**  **17 that's new.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: It did work last**  **19 time. I will say that much.**  **20 MEMBER MEYERS: So, actually, I**  **21 got really hung up on this one at the last**  **22 one. So, I remember there being a lot of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 discussion on this one. And it gives me**  **2 heartburn that the whole committee can agree**  **3 and DOE can disagree. And they have kind of**  **4 free rein on this.**  **5 So, I think where we left it last**  **6 time is that, or what the understanding was,**  **7 that DOE was pretty much forced to use, unless**  **8 there was a legal reason where they could not**  **9 use it, they had to go with what the consensus**  **10 was of the group. Because, otherwise, you**  **11 know, they pretty much have full veto power**  **12 over everything.**  **13 And so, I remember there was a lot**  **14 of discussion on that. And so, we finally**  **15 agreed -- I mean, you guys correct me if you**  **16 recall differently -- but they pretty much**  **17 couldn't veto something unless there was a**  **18 legal reason why they could not adopt it.**  **19 MEMBER HARRIS: Gee, that seems to**  **20 me to change the nature of this from an**  **21 advisory committee into a decisionmaking**  **22 committee, and I am not sure that is legal,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 actually.**  **2 We operate under the Federal**  **3 Advisory Committee Act. We are advisory. We**  **4 don't get to tell the government what it has**  **5 to do. The government represents everybody;**  **6 we represent our specialized interests. We**  **7 are advisory. That is the nature of this.**  **8 The fact that DOE is at the table**  **9 is critical, because, then, we get their**  **10 concerns out with us. But I don't see how you**  **11 can possibly turn this group of interested**  **12 parties into a decisionmaking body for the**  **13 federal government.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Right, Scott Harris,**  **15 and I will follow up with this.**  **16 Doug Rawald.**  **17 So, there are a lot of things that**  **18 have to be considered in making a rule and a**  **19 rulemaking. And Dan could talk about this a**  **20 lot. But there are things regarding the Small**  **21 Business Administration that we need to think**  **22 about. There are concerns regarding our** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 different regulatory requirements and**  **2 different things that Congress looks for that**  **3 we have to consider in every rule.**  **4 And so, it may be that, when**  **5 looking at that analysis at the end of the**  **6 day, even though we have the recommendation**  **7 from you folks, DOE can't support it. And so,**  **8 we would have to look at all of those things.**  **9 So, I understand you probably**  **10 think that is all in the legal area. That is**  **11 what you are talking about. But I think the**  **12 way this is drafted is to explain, hey, DOE is**  **13 going to make sure that whatever this**  **14 recommendation of this committee is, we are**  **15 going to put it out in the rule we have. And**  **16 if we can't do it or we feel like we can't**  **17 agree with it, then we are going to go a**  **18 different course. We are going to make sure**  **19 the public knows what we are thinking or what**  **20 was discussed here, so at least it puts it out**  **21 there and makes us at least have some sort of**  **22 reason for it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 What I can assure you is that I am**  **2 here to negotiate in good faith, like everyone**  **3 else. I mean, I don't want to be here just to**  **4 waste everyone's time. I am investing my own**  **5 time to be here, and the Department has asked**  **6 me to be here in order to come to a conclusion**  **7 that works for the industry and for the**  **8 stakeholders and everybody involved here.**  **9 And so, we are not viewing it as**  **10 our ability to kind of just hold say over**  **11 everyone and say, "Well, DOE is not going to**  **12 do that. So, we can't agree to that." That**  **13 is not the intent at all.**  **14 But we do have at least a**  **15 requirement to make sure that everyone**  **16 understands how DOE would view things, if we**  **17 were dissenting. And there is also reason why**  **18 we would dissent. So, we want to make sure**  **19 that that is clearly articulated here.**  **20 And I think this is a really fair**  **21 articulation of what our position would have**  **22 to be. And I think it is kind of where we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would rest in this negotiation. I think it**  **2 worked last time, and I think it makes a whole**  **3 lot of sense in how it is drafted currently.**  **4 But I understand your concerns,**  **5 Karen. I really do. And I want to assure you**  **6 that I will do everything I can to dissuade**  **7 any concerns you have over the course of this**  **8 rulemaking or this negotiation.**  **9 MEMBER MEYERS: Well, let me be**  **10 clear.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: I mean, this is**  **13 how we got to a point I think where, I think**  **14 at least me personally, I got comfortable with**  **15 the process.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: Because it took us**  **18 a long time to get to this paragraph. I**  **19 remember that. Because there was just this**  **20 fear that everyone else could agree and DOE**  **21 could just not, and so much for the**  **22 negotiation and the hours spent getting to the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 point of view.**  **2 So, I was not very clear. I do**  **3 support this paragraph --**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **5 MEMBER MEYERS: -- as written**  **6 because I think it takes into account a lot of**  **7 the concerns I had when we were drafting this**  **8 language originally.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Other questions or**  **10 comments, concerns?**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: I think it has to**  **12 be that way.**  **13 This is Chuck White.**  **14 If we all agreed that there was no**  **15 point in enforcing this and we should have DOE**  **16 ignore it, then we all put forth that and we**  **17 all agreed to it, DOE would have to ignore**  **18 that. That is not their mandate.**  **19 And it is not that they are not**  **20 here in good faith. They have to do what they**  **21 have been ordered to do by the government.**  **22 So, it has to be that way. I can support that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 paragraph.**  **2 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen.**  **3 Just one quick sort of procedural**  **4 thing I should point out here, too. So, Doug**  **5 is, though a lawyer and a member of the Office**  **6 of General Counsel, he is here as the DOE**  **7 representative on this committee to negotiate**  **8 an agreement.**  **9 Those of us here who also are in**  **10 the General Counsel's Office, we are here to**  **11 give legal advice to the committee as a whole.**  **12 So that Doug is not in the position of having**  **13 to give you legal advice, too.**  **14 Our job is to make sure that, as**  **15 you are negotiating, you understand what the**  **16 legal parameters are within which we are**  **17 operating. So that, we shouldn't actually**  **18 have a problem here. So that, whatever**  **19 agreement is reached, it something that we**  **20 can, as a legal matter, at least be okay with,**  **21 right? So, you understand the various sort of**  **22 outlines of where we can and cannot go, just** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 as a matter of law.**  **2 Now Doug would, then, represent**  **3 the Department in sort of working out within**  **4 those parameters what we can do. So, truly,**  **5 this shouldn't really be a problem.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody else**  **7 have any comments?**  **8 (No response.)**  **9 Anybody object to the language as**  **10 it is currently in the document?**  **11 (No response.)**  **12 Okay, public comments?**  **13 Or, actually, b. So, we are on b,**  **14 "Statement of basis for an NOPR". Oh, no, I'm**  **15 sorry. I am going up and down. We are on c.**  **16 You are here to basically give**  **17 recommendations for what should be in a Notice**  **18 of Proposed Rulemaking. The agency, then, has**  **19 to put it out for public comment. They get**  **20 the comment back. The agency will prepare a**  **21 summary. The comments are in a public docket.**  **22 You could read them. But they will prepare a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 summary and circulate it. And you, as a**  **2 Working Group, have the right under this**  **3 paragraph to tell them what they ought to do**  **4 as a result of the comments.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug**  **6 Rawald.**  **7 Also, process-wise, so folks can**  **8 envision this happening. So, the negotiation**  **9 concludes. We give a report to ASRAC at the**  **10 end of October. There is a rule published at**  **11 some point after that. And then, after that,**  **12 so possibly late in the year or early in the**  **13 next year, you folks would be brought back in**  **14 or at least given, "Hey, here are the**  **15 comments." And then, if you want to, then**  **16 come together as a group and say, "Hey, we**  **17 want to make sure the Working Group's response**  **18 to these comments is heard." That gives you**  **19 the opportunity to do that, to kind of revoice**  **20 those comments.**  **21 So, it is an obligation beyond the**  **22 end of the negotiation that you need to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 involved in what is going on with the fruit of**  **2 your labor. And I say "you," but I am**  **3 including me in that. I am also part of that**  **4 group.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Any comments,**  **6 questions?**  **7 Generally, when you do a**  **8 negotiated rulemaking and you do it well, you**  **9 will get fewer comments. They will be less**  **10 adverse. They may raise a technical issue**  **11 that everybody missed, and a simple fix may be**  **12 necessary before you issue the final rule. It**  **13 may raise some real important, substantive**  **14 issues. And you may say, "We need to meet**  **15 again to talk about how to respond to that."**  **16 But, generally speaking,**  **17 everything goes fairly well; there are no**  **18 significant concerns at the final rule stage.**  **19 Any objections to this paragraph**  **20 as it is written?**  **21 (No response.)**  **22 Okay, this one was brought up** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 earlier. This one is important.**  **2 Anybody have any issues they want**  **3 to raise about the way it is written, about no**  **4 challenge?**  **5 Paragraph d, subparagraph d.**  **6 MEMBER ROCKY: This is Bryan**  **7 Rocky, Johnson Controls.**  **8 By the discussion, it says, "Each**  **9 party that is working within the framework of**  **10 this Working Group," it indicates that each of**  **11 us is representing the interests of all of our**  **12 organization. So, in other words, my vote, in**  **13 my discussion, in future activities, I am**  **14 representing all 155,000 Johnson Controls**  **15 employees. Is that the intent of this**  **16 statement from the Department's viewpoint?**  **17 Any dissenting views from anyone**  **18 in Johnson Controls would not be allowed**  **19 because I have accepted and participated in**  **20 this Working Group?**  **21 MR. EISNER: Dan?**  **22 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Yes, this is Dan.**  **2 So, that is correct. The**  **3 assumption is that you are here representing**  **4 an interest, not yourself. And that, once you**  **5 represent that interest, that interest is,**  **6 presumably, satisfied.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: And, Dan, this is**  **8 Doug, if I can give clarification.**  **9 So, for folks like Ray Ellis, who**  **10 is representing not only his company, but the**  **11 other companies that have the same interest he**  **12 does, that is all those companies as well.**  **13 MR. COHEN: So, this is Dan.**  **14 That is a little more difficult,**  **15 right, because it is hard to say Johnson**  **16 Controls can bind some other party that is a**  **17 different organization. But, theoretically,**  **18 they are representing -- that is more the case**  **19 for, say, sort of the trade groups who are,**  **20 presumably, representing their members.**  **21 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes. And again,**  **22 this is Bryan Rocky.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, I am not trying to belabor a**  **2 negative point. It is just it is something**  **3 that I have come across and have been thinking**  **4 of.**  **5 So, in this case Johnson Controls**  **6 and several of the other manufacturers**  **7 involved are members of AHRI. So, if Amy**  **8 represents AHRI, is she double-counted? Is my**  **9 vote even applicable in certain cases, because**  **10 I am a member of the organization she is**  **11 representing?**  **12 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen**  **13 again.**  **14 So, AHRI is a different party in**  **15 this negotiation. You are here representing**  **16 your company. There may be times when your**  **17 company and AHRI may have different views, and**  **18 we would hope that that would, in fact, be**  **19 portrayed in the negotiation. It shouldn't**  **20 just have one sort of mindset towards it.**  **21 AHRI as an organization represents**  **22 all of its member companies. They do that as** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the organization. AHRI would, then,**  **2 presumably, if they vote in favor of**  **3 something, AHRI would be the party that that**  **4 provision would apply to.**  **5 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **6 Hourahan with ACCA.**  **7 I have two questions building on,**  **8 I guess, the legal side. So, as ACCA as an**  **9 organization representing contractors, we may**  **10 be in consensus with a vote. And**  **11 subsequently, one of our constituent members**  **12 is not in agreement. What is the recourse,**  **13 the legal recourse, from DOE back to us if one**  **14 of our members chooses to take some other**  **15 action?**  **16 MR. COHEN: Let's be clear. What**  **17 we are working on here essentially is a moral**  **18 obligation in this scenario, right? There is**  **19 nothing legally-binding. We can't prevent one**  **20 of your member companies from doing anything**  **21 pursuant to this provision, right?**  **22 So, the expectation is, though,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that, as you come here as a representative of**  **2 a group of entities, the membership of your**  **3 organization, that you have been talking to**  **4 those people. Well, whatever committees you**  **5 have and what internal processes you have for**  **6 coming to some policy view for the**  **7 organization is working to lead to whatever**  **8 view you are expressing in this committee.**  **9 So, presumably, all the various**  **10 voices within your group have been vetted**  **11 before you come here and take a view, right?**  **12 So, you are kind of presenting the views of**  **13 your membership.**  **14 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Well, thank you**  **15 very much for that, except for it is the**  **16 middle of summer. We are talking about a two**  **17 month process. My members are focused on**  **18 doing other things than what we are doing here**  **19 in D.C.**  **20 So, we will do our canvasses and**  **21 caucuses and things of that nature within our**  **22 membership, but there will be a significant** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 number of folks in the industry who will be**  **2 surprised by whatever rulemaking comes out in**  **3 January, no matter what we do here.**  **4 My second question -- thank you,**  **5 though -- my second question is -- this still**  **6 is Glenn Hourahan -- is the word "in any**  **7 forum". I don't know what that really means.**  **8 I can interpret that as, if we were to vote**  **9 yes on an issue, and then, subsequently in a**  **10 meeting or one of our conferences, in our**  **11 forum, that is, disagree or make an**  **12 announcement that we were part of this**  **13 process, and now that we have looked at it**  **14 again, we are against it, I would take that to**  **15 mean precluded from doing such.**  **16 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen.**  **17 So, to be perfectly honest, that**  **18 language was meant to really deal with**  **19 Congress. The expectation would be that, if**  **20 there is a consensus reached in this group,**  **21 that no party in this group would go running**  **22 off to the Hill and try to undercut it in some** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 way.**  **2 MR. EISNER: If I could add here,**  **3 too, Dan has stressed this is not something**  **4 that is put in because somebody thinks there's**  **5 legal enforcement opportunity here. It is put**  **6 in to deliver a message that everybody is here**  **7 around the table in good faith to try to**  **8 negotiate. And when you do their job and you**  **9 say, "I like this rule," and the agency goes**  **10 ahead and they publish it, and everybody else**  **11 says, "We like it," and they adopt it, they**  **12 don't expect to hear criticism. They don't**  **13 expect someone going up to Congress to get the**  **14 rule reversed. They don't expect to have a**  **15 lawsuit.**  **16 That doesn't mean that you did**  **17 everything right and the head of the**  **18 organization changed or something else**  **19 changed, and you now want to bring a lawsuit**  **20 against the agency for it. What means is the**  **21 next time the agency is looking at, for**  **22 example, doing a negotiated rulemaking, it may** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 decide, for whatever reason, the organization**  **2 that did this wouldn't be a good one to**  **3 represent that interest group because that**  **4 interest group didn't listen to what they were**  **5 saying or didn't join the phone conversation.**  **6 They may say the interest group did a good**  **7 job, but we can't negotiate with that interest**  **8 again because they don't know how to negotiate**  **9 effectively.**  **10 It could be a lot of things. They**  **11 are trying to say we all work together. Just**  **12 like you want to be able to show a product --**  **13 that is what Karen was getting at -- after all**  **14 these meetings, you want to be able to have a**  **15 product to get out on the street, even if the**  **16 agency disagrees with it.**  **17 The agency said, "We'll do that."**  **18 The same way they want to say everybody has**  **19 agreed with it, we want to get to a final**  **20 rule. And if we can't, you may have all done**  **21 the best job you could have. They now know in**  **22 the future, "We got the message. We can't** 

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### 1 keep doing this and, then, going into court. **2 We can't keep doing this and having 3 legislation passed overturning what we did."**  **4 So, if that happens, despite your 5 best efforts to represent your interests, we**  **6 just want to let you know we won't be able to 7 negotiate in these areas in the future.**  **8 Yes? 9 MR. DENNIS: Keith Dennis from**  **10 NRECA. 11 I just wanted to kind of add**  **12 something for the record as a group with a 13 member at the table. And I think that EEI**  **14 would agree in this same position, although 15 Steve is not here.**  **16 While we would like to give Ray 17 and Lincoln Electric all of the support that**  **18 we can, and we will act in good faith and try 19 to bring our perspective to help him, he is a**  **20 member of our organization, sort of like AHRI 21 has members. We are not actually at this.**  **22 So, we wouldn't think that his particular**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 interest would, then, bind other parties that**  **2 are members or our trade association, just**  **3 because we have a member on the association.**  **4 So, I intend to support Lincoln**  **5 and potentially act as an alternative. But,**  **6 as far as NRECA, we decided as a trade**  **7 association not to apply for the committee,**  **8 for that very reason.**  **9 So, I just want to make clear that**  **10 a member being on this doesn't, then, make**  **11 whatever group they are a member of party to**  **12 this kind of Work Group ground rules. Is that**  **13 the understanding?**  **14 MR. EISNER: The people around the**  **15 table --**  **16 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **17 MR. EISNER: -- are the ones who**  **18 are signing the agreement.**  **19 MR. DENNIS: Right. I just had**  **20 heard something a little earlier, kind of it**  **21 wasn't clear on the record, saying that**  **22 potentially --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Right.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug**  **3 Rawald.**  **4 So, I asked the question of Dan**  **5 because I wanted to understand the**  **6 ramifications of what we are agreeing to, for**  **7 folks that haven't thought it through here.**  **8 Because we talked about it in the**  **9 context of Johnson Controls, which is very**  **10 simple. It is a company. And so, you are**  **11 going to have folks like Lincoln Electric,**  **12 which is the example I used, which probably**  **13 caught your ear, who when Ray was introducing**  **14 himself recommended that, "Hey, I'm speaking**  **15 on behalf me, but also I have these other**  **16 companies that are similarly situated and I am**  **17 speaking on behalf of as well who I want to**  **18 talk to and I will caucus with."**  **19 MR. DENNIS: Right.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And so, I wanted to**  **21 clarity from my lawyers about how they view**  **22 that interplaying with what is going on here.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **2 And I just want to emphasize that,**  **3 to me, the term "interested party" that we are**  **4 supposedly representing is incredibly**  **5 ambiguous. We have the example of Lincoln**  **6 Electric, quote, "representing" the 2300 or so**  **7 rural cooperatives. And Glenn is**  **8 representing, and for that matter Chuck, not**  **9 just ACCA and PHCC, respectively, but my**  **10 understanding is that your two organizations**  **11 are a minority of all the contractors in the**  **12 industry, and you generally represent the more**  **13 professional contractors whose interests may**  **14 diverge from those of the median contractor.**  **15 So, it is a moral principle. It**  **16 is not anything which can be actionable in**  **17 practice. And I think we have all implicitly**  **18 understood that.**  **19 We have seen cases in the**  **20 commercial products thing where, despite --**  **21 well, because of individual corporate**  **22 interests, the positions of the members in,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for example, commercial refrigeration or**  **2 boilers covered a broad spectrum. And there**  **3 were individual manufacturers who were at the**  **4 table and couldn't really be supportive of**  **5 everything that the association as a whole**  **6 might have wanted.**  **7 So, I think it is understood --**  **8 and this may be more explicit than we need --**  **9 but it never has seemed to get in the way in**  **10 past discussions.**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: Chuck White.**  **12 I would like to ask kind of a**  **13 followup. I don't know that PHCC necessarily**  **14 has a consensus formula for all of our**  **15 members, but I am going to go look it up.**  **16 But I would like to know how AHRI**  **17 doesn't necessarily bind a member of Johnson**  **18 Controls, that one is a member of the other,**  **19 but yet, PHCC or ACCA binds their thousands of**  **20 members around the country. What is the**  **21 difference here? And I don't have any way to**  **22 make all of my members agree with everything** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we do.**  **2 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **3 Doria of Ingersoll Rand.**  **4 If I could maybe offer, if I**  **5 understand you correctly, I think the**  **6 distinction is that I am speaking on behalf of**  **7 Ingersoll Rand. If, in theory, another**  **8 Ingersoll Rand employee chooses to weigh-in**  **9 through public comment period on it, they are**  **10 free to do so. And this does not prevent**  **11 that. They are simply not speaking on behalf**  **12 of Ingersoll Rand at that point. It just so**  **13 happens they work for the company, as I**  **14 understand it anyway.**  **15 Similarly, PHCC will continue to**  **16 speak for PHCC. If one of your members**  **17 chooses to weigh-in in the contrary, they are**  **18 speaking solely on their own behalf and not on**  **19 behalf of PHCC. That is the distinction that**  **20 I get and understand.**  **21 MEMBER WHITE: But what I heard**  **22 was my members will be bound by my decision,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and it is incumbent upon on me to caucus with**  **2 everybody and make sure we all agree, and that**  **3 my members are my members and they are part of**  **4 my big umbrella.**  **5 MR. COHEN: And this is Dan Cohen.**  **6 So, let me clarify. Maybe if I**  **7 misstated that, or whatever, but that was not**  **8 what I was trying to convey. What I was**  **9 trying to convey was the expectation for this**  **10 negotiation is that, when you come into the**  **11 room, you have canvassed your interested**  **12 parties and your membership, so that you can**  **13 adequately represent the views of the interest**  **14 that you are here representing.**  **15 The party, for purposes of that**  **16 provision, is the organization, not the**  **17 individual members. So, the expectation is**  **18 that the organization is okay with it.**  **19 And I think I said this when the**  **20 gentleman from Johnson Controls was asking.**  **21 Because he represents other manufacturers,**  **22 does his saying yes on an issue bind those** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 other manufacturers? I don't see how that can**  **2 be the case. Johnson Controls can only**  **3 represent in this instance for this particular**  **4 purpose Johnson Controls.**  **5 To the extent that people are here**  **6 representing other parties, it is in the way**  **7 they are representative of those other**  **8 parties. So, the gentleman from Lincoln**  **9 Electric, he is representative of**  **10 cooperatives. I mean, he can't speak for --**  **11 you know, pick a cooperative; I don't know who**  **12 it might be in Ohio someplace. But he**  **13 obviously can't bind them to anything.**  **14 The expectation, though, is that,**  **15 through his representation, in a**  **16 representative way of those interests, and**  **17 with NRECA as part of supporting, that they**  **18 can sort of try to, before we get to**  **19 resolution of an issue, try to vet that**  **20 concept or the issues that are being discussed**  **21 through their membership and through the**  **22 parties that make up their industry. So, they** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 can come here with what is a view of that**  **2 industry as a whole.**  **3 So, that in the rulemaking we**  **4 don't come up with something that works well**  **5 for Lincoln Electric, but not for the**  **6 cooperative in Ohio. But, obviously, you**  **7 can't bind the cooperative in Ohio.**  **8 MEMBER SHEPHERD: I think we all**  **9 kind of get the gist of what this is going**  **10 for. And so, maybe we could take a look at**  **11 this language, because I find the language**  **12 just a little confusing. And I don't know**  **13 that it really reflects the essence of what we**  **14 are speaking about.**  **15 So, we talk about in (3)d that**  **16 there is going to be a report to ASRAC that**  **17 will include the term sheet, but this also**  **18 talks about recommendations and the issue**  **19 challenged.**  **20 So, for me, I don't know that this**  **21 language as it is drafted really captures this**  **22 idea that we are getting at, which is that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 each party is representing its interests and**  **2 in good faith will do that and agrees not to**  **3 take a different position later, unless they**  **4 have viewed that. I mean, I feel like we are**  **5 having a conversation that we all get, but I**  **6 don't know that that language really reflects**  **7 this.**  **8 9**  **MR. RAWALD: Might I suggest -- 10**  **this is Doug Rawald -- since it is 12:10, that 11**  **we take a lunch break, and possibly you and 12**  **some of us can think of some language that 13**  **might be a little bit easier to understand. 14**  **And we come back after lunch and put that 15**  **language on the table. 16**  **MR. EISNER: Okay. Is that 17**  **agreeable with everybody? 18**  **MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey. 19**  **And I might clarify Amy's point by 20**  **saying, although I consider myself an 21**  **environmental and efficiency advocate, I will 22**  **not be held responsible for any statement that**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Greenpeace or the American Society of Tree**  **2 Huggers and Treehouses were to make on the**  **3 Hill or anywhere else as a result of this**  **4 proceeding.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Before we go for**  **6 lunch, does everybody understand the ground**  **7 rules about, for example, going out of the**  **8 building and things like that?**  **9 MR. COHEN: So, just quickly, as**  **10 you are walking out of the building, you**  **11 actually have to have your badge on.**  **12 I think someone mentioned, I think**  **13 it was Doug who mentioned that, if you go down**  **14 the elevator just out here to the side of the**  **15 building and go straight down to the ground**  **16 floor, there is a Subway and a Dunkin' Donuts.**  **17 Obviously, you can go there; no problem.**  **18 If you go to the cafeteria, which**  **19 requires you go to the ground floor and, then,**  **20 walk through a maze to the other side of the**  **21 building, when you actually enter the**  **22 cafeteria, technically, you are leaving the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 building, even though you are still in the**  **2 building. Don't ask; just trust me on that.**  **3 That's the case.**  **4 (Laughter.)**  **5 Just have your badge.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: So, they will scan**  **7 your badge out and they will scan you back in.**  **8 MR. COHEN: Yes. If you leave the**  **9 building completely, and you want to go off**  **10 someplace else and get real food, then will**  **11 have to hand the badge in, I believe, to the**  **12 guard at the desk, but tell them you are**  **13 coming back, and they will keep the badge.**  **14 So, you don't have to go through the whole**  **15 security process all over again when you come**  **16 back.**  **17 This room will be secure.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Why don't we aim to**  **19 be back at 1:15?**  **20 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **21 went off the record for lunch at 12:13 p.m.**  **22 and went back on the record at 1:19 p.m.)** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  **2 1:19 p.m.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Okay, everybody take**  **4 a couple of seconds to look at it.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: And just for purposes**  **6 of the record -- this is Doug Rawald -- so,**  **7 what Amy has proposed, after caucusing with**  **8 folks over lunch, is that we entirely replace**  **9 the language under "No Challenge" with some**  **10 new language saying, "Each Working Group**  **11 member agrees to make good-faith efforts to**  **12 represent its affected interest, including**  **13 raising concerns and accepting views.**  **14 Accordingly, each Working Group member who**  **15 votes in favor of the report agrees not to**  **16 take a position materially inconsistent with**  **17 the report in any public forum, to the extent**  **18 that that proposed rule will have the same**  **19 substance and effect as a term sheet for a**  **20 period of one year from the date of the final**  **21 rule."**  **22 MEMBER SHEPHERD: So, I think what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we were trying to achieve is this**  **2 understanding that, when you're in, you're in,**  **3 and you need to say something to object and**  **4 have a consequence to that that we all**  **5 understand, but, also, I think recognize a**  **6 little bit that there is some limitation as to**  **7 what actions could be taken vis-a-vis your**  **8 interested parties. You are supposed to**  **9 represent them, but, I mean, technically, you**  **10 can't legally bind them, I don't think. So,**  **11 that is what that is trying to get at.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any comments?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: For those folks that**  **14 propose this -- this is Doug Rawald -- does**  **15 everyone agree that public forum includes**  **16 court? So, that would mean you can't sue us**  **17 and say, "Hey, we disagree with what we had**  **18 already voted for before."?**  **19 MEMBER SHEPHERD: I think that was**  **20 our intent.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **22 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Hourahan.**  **2 I actually see when you say -- I**  **3 am trying to find the words again -- "in**  **4 public forum," you actually extend it. It is**  **5 more. Because they were saying "court" and**  **6 "Congress," and now, you have extended it to**  **7 everywhere.**  **8 MEMBER SHEPHERD: It said "other**  **9 forum". It is right above. So, it said "in**  **10 court or any other forum".**  **11 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Right, but yours**  **12 says "in any public forum" now.**  **13 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Well, I don't**  **14 really know what -- I'm sorry. I was just**  **15 trying to -- I mean, I don't know that "in**  **16 court or any other forum" is any more narrow**  **17 than "public forum".**  **18 MEMBER HARRIS: By having "public**  **19 forum," you have actually, then, narrowed it.**  **20 MEMBER SHEPHERD: And we did think**  **21 about that. We said, you know, we may have to**  **22 have internal discussions or justifications** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with people that were like, "Look, we weren't**  **2 happy with this or that, but on the whole we**  **3 decided to support it." And we didn't want to**  **4 try to police that.**  **5 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan with**  **6 Ingersoll Rand.**  **7 One just question is, we use the**  **8 term "report" twice here, and I don't recall**  **9 using that elsewhere. And then, we use the**  **10 term "term sheet" at the end. It seems like**  **11 it might be better to use "term sheet"**  **12 throughout.**  **13 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay. So, the**  **14 reason I put "report" in is because the**  **15 decisionmaking, (3)d, talks about a report**  **16 that we submit to ASRAC that could include any**  **17 agreed term sheet.**  **18 MEMBER DORIA: Okay.**  **19 MEMBER SHEPHERD: So, I was trying**  **20 to be consistent. Because one thing that was**  **21 confusing me with that other language was the**  **22 recommendation. So, that is what that is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 trying to get at.**  **2 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan with**  **3 Ingersoll Rand.**  **4 The only other question is, there**  **5 was a reference to the preamble as well as the**  **6 final rule in the earlier version. And that**  **7 is not here now. So, I am just asking if that**  **8 is important. I think Scott made the point**  **9 before that the preamble and the final rule**  **10 can both be important. So, do we want to**  **11 include it?**  **12 MEMBER SHEPHERD: To me, a**  **13 proposed -- I guess I don't know the**  **14 administrative law answer to this question,**  **15 but, to me, a proposed rule, I think of that**  **16 as the NOPR. I guess maybe we should put**  **17 that. I was thinking NOPR and Notice of Final**  **18 Rule, which would include the preamble in the**  **19 final rule.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I guess**  **21 what I am hearing you saying is that her use**  **22 of the word "rule" includes both the preamble** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 language and the regulatory language that will**  **2 be adopted in the CFR. So, I am comfortable**  **3 with that interpretation of what the word**  **4 "rule" means.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?**  **6 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **7 White.**  **8 Do we interpret "Working Group**  **9 member" as the individual sitting at this**  **10 table or the group the individual represents?**  **11 Just a question.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Chuck, I think that**  **13 is a very valid question -- this is Doug**  **14 Rawald -- given a lot of our discussion before**  **15 lunch. So, I think we have to always go back**  **16 to the fact that the reason why we can exist**  **17 in this situation, why FACA allows us to**  **18 conduct ourselves, is because we all are here**  **19 in a representative capacity.**  **20 So, there is at least some idea**  **21 that nobody here is speaking for themselves.**  **22 So, while what we are saying is none of us** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 should actually go out and do this, the hope**  **2 is that your group would fall in line with**  **3 what you are doing. Now we understand there**  **4 is a practical limitation to that, right? I**  **5 mean, especially from your group and from**  **6 Glenn's group, which are probably the largest,**  **7 most dispersed groups I can imagine of the**  **8 ones at the table, where you have folks all**  **9 over the country who you can't control.**  **10 And we understand we are not**  **11 binding them. What we were hoping is that**  **12 folks would fall in line with you, hearing**  **13 this kind of moral obligation, and say, "Hey,**  **14 listen, I'm not going to sue." But if Dan out**  **15 in Alaska says, "I have to sue," then he does,**  **16 and that is his issue. But we are hoping,**  **17 acting in a representative capacity, will be**  **18 able to say that, "I think people will fall in**  **19 line with what I say here."**  **20 Does that make sense?**  **21 So, if Laura could actually delete**  **22 that earlier text, the no challenge portion of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that, and start after "no challenge," period,**  **2 and delete from there on.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Do you want this to**  **4 be (5) rather than subparagraph d?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: No, she is going to**  **6 make it subparagraph d. It is going to be a**  **7 correction to that because of the way the**  **8 automatic numbering worked.**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **10 And I would just point out there**  **11 is a nuance here that I suspect a number of**  **12 people at this table will be involved in**  **13 various conferences, workshops, and things**  **14 like this, which will have as their subject**  **15 what the agreement arrived at and the rule**  **16 actually mean, and "take a position" certainly**  **17 cannot be read or meant as discussed why there**  **18 were opposing views. And I don't think it is**  **19 intended to do that, but I did want to just**  **20 raise that as a sanity check.**  **21 I am thinking about January's**  **22 ASHRAE conference where there may well be a** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 session on this question of implementation and**  **2 enforcement of regional standards.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug**  **4 Rawald.**  **5 So, Harvey, what I would envision**  **6 from reading this language would be that, if**  **7 you were sitting at ASHRAE talking about what**  **8 we discussed here, you wouldn't say, "And I**  **9 voted for it, but, gosh, I didn't agree with**  **10 it."**  **11 MEMBER SACHS: No.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: That is what we are**  **13 saying, is that you wouldn't go out there and**  **14 say, "I voted for it, but I didn't agree with**  **15 it," or "I went along with it, but I didn't**  **16 agree with it," that kind of thing.**  **17 So, we are saying, hey, if you're**  **18 voting for it, it is because you believe in it**  **19 and you are going to stick to that feeling in**  **20 any public forum for the year.**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: If I am voting for**  **22 it, it means that I accept it in its totality.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **2 I think I agree with that.**  **3 MEMBER SACHS: I may still think**  **4 that something in it is stupid.**  **5 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?**  **6 MR. RAWALD: I just want to say**  **7 thanks to Amy. I thought that was really good**  **8 caucusing from the first outing there by the**  **9 group. That was great.**  **10 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Well, it shows**  **11 you what happens when you make a comment; you**  **12 might get an assignment.**  **13 (Laughter.)**  **14 MEMBER SACHS: It also shows you**  **15 lawyers can fix problems.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Some would probably**  **17 find allegation in that aspect.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Okay, now anybody**  **19 have any concerns or questions?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So, Neil, does this**  **21 mean that, if we decide we don't like what you**  **22 are doing, we can get rid of you? Is that** 

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### 1 what that is saying here? **2 MR. EISNER: That is what it 3 means.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Just so everyone 5 knows that.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody is 7 okay with that, No. (5)?**  **8 Paragraph (6). Okay. The first 9 one is about the Federal Advisory Committee**  **10 Act, the Negotiating Rulemaking Act. It just 11 says that we are basically operating under**  **12 those. 13 Anybody have a problem?**  **14 (No response.) 15 No objections?**  **16 Okay, paragraph b. The meetings 17 are open. They are announced in The Federal**  **18 Register. 19 Does anybody have any concerns,**  **20 questions? 21 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **22 Rawald.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I just want to note, you may**  **2 recall from our discussion with Tina Hymer**  **3 about the FACA rules, we are not required to**  **4 post notices regarding these meetings. We**  **5 have in the past. I recommend we continue**  **6 doing such a thing. It is good to have the**  **7 public know what is going on here, but it is**  **8 not a requirement. So, here we are agreeing**  **9 to do that. And if we do agree to that, then**  **10 the Department will take on the burden of**  **11 actually always publishing notices of the**  **12 meetings before they happen.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Okay. I assume there**  **14 are no questions or problems. Or there is?**  **15 (No response.)**  **16 Okay, that brings us up to c,**  **17 "Meeting summaries". Basically, have a record**  **18 by the transcript, but you are not necessarily**  **19 approving them as official summaries. No**  **20 photographs can be taken. In the absence of**  **21 consensus, you are not bound by positions**  **22 taken or accepted. We are supposed to be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 throwing ideas out on the table. If you don't**  **2 work it out, you are not bound by the fact**  **3 that you proposed an alternative and now don't**  **4 want to go with it.**  **5 Does anybody have any questions or**  **6 concerns about this?**  **7 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **8 Rawald. I want to jump in again.**  **9 So, this provision here, "In the**  **10 absence of consensus, parties shall not be**  **11 bound by positions taken during this**  **12 negotiation," I think it is really important**  **13 that we have the freedom to kind of be devil's**  **14 advocate and to throw out different ideas,**  **15 because this really is an important kind of,**  **16 "Hey, how is this going to work?"**  **17 And so, I mean, from my point of**  **18 view, from the Department and what we are**  **19 going to enforce, it is very helpful to kind**  **20 of game these things out and think through how**  **21 they are going to work. And so, I definitely**  **22 hope that folks will be amenable to actually** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 adopting this provision and following it, and**  **2 trying to think through what will work and**  **3 what will not, and offering different**  **4 hypotheses and different ideas.**  **5 MEMBER MEYERS: This is Karen**  **6 Meyers.**  **7 And I don't know what needs to go**  **8 in there, but can we at least try to make a**  **9 commitment that we will have the transcripts**  **10 available at least three days prior to the**  **11 next meeting? That was kind of an issue last**  **12 time, is, you know, the transcripts weren't**  **13 ready and weren't ready and weren't ready.**  **14 And so, we needed to go back and reference**  **15 something, and they weren't quite -- and I**  **16 don't know if it needs to go in here, but if**  **17 we could just try to make a general commitment**  **18 to do that?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess that**  **20 would be out -- this is Doug -- so, that would**  **21 be out of the control of the Board. So, I**  **22 wouldn't necessarily want to make a ground** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 rule, but what I will do is I will bring that**  **2 back to the folks who are in charge here.**  **3 The problem as I see it will be**  **4 logistical, right, because the meetings are**  **5 going to happen pretty rapidly, because our**  **6 deadline is October. And so, the question is,**  **7 from working with the folks that we have**  **8 contracted to do this, how quickly can they**  **9 turn things around? And I don't have an**  **10 answer for you.**  **11 So, I will talk to the folks that**  **12 are in charge of the contract regarding the**  **13 court reporting and see what I can get a**  **14 number for and I will try to do the best to**  **15 meet the group's work. But I don't think it**  **16 will work as a ground rule because we can't do**  **17 anything about it.**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: It would be**  **19 helpful if you can make that happen.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: No, I understand. I**  **21 like to read them, too. So, I am onboard with**  **22 you.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth at**  **2 NRDC.**  **3 And I don't know if this is**  **4 actually the right section to be talking about**  **5 this, but it strikes me that we are making a**  **6 recommendation to ASRAC, correct?**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **8 MEMBER MEYERS: Is it assumed that**  **9 they accept our recommendation in its**  **10 entirety? I mean, do they discuss our**  **11 recommendation, and then, give that to DOE or**  **12 is it whatever we say goes?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Right, so it is not**  **14 that, right. That is why we can operate the**  **15 way we do under FACA, is because the senior**  **16 committee will discuss our recommendation and**  **17 decide whether to adopt from whole cloth or**  **18 not.**  **19 So, I can't speak for ASRAC, and**  **20 Scott can because he is the ASRAC**  **21 representative. But my understanding is that**  **22 they will debate our recommendations, and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 then, forward them as appropriate.**  **2 MEMBER MEYERS: So, then, I guess**  **3 -- and I apologize for going back into**  **4 sections, but it just came to me, in the**  **5 agreement section we talk about unanimous**  **6 vote, DOE will accept; non-unanimous vote, DOE**  **7 will to the best of their ability. And then,**  **8 if DOE is the dissent, again -- but what if**  **9 ASRAC is? Is it assumed that, to the best of**  **10 their ability, they will accept? Or is it**  **11 assumed that they will discuss, and then, that**  **12 is what DOE would accept?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: So, what you are**  **14 referring to -- this is Doug Rawald -- is**  **15 Section (4)b, "Statement of the Basis for**  **16 NOPR". And why that is important, and why I**  **17 think ASRAC is important to that, is what we**  **18 are saying is the Department will take the**  **19 recommendation of the subcommittee and use it**  **20 for a rule if is unanimous. If it is not, and**  **21 we disagree with you, what we will do is we**  **22 will put it out there as a comment. And we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 will say, "Here's what the entire weight of**  **2 everyone we talked with wanted to do." So, it**  **3 will be in that notice. Regardless of what**  **4 ASRAC thinks of it actually going forward, we**  **5 are going to put that in there, that a group**  **6 of people came together who represented a lot**  **7 of interest and felt this is the right way to**  **8 go. And so, we want to make sure -- yes, we**  **9 are assuring you that your work will go out**  **10 for the public in some form or fashion.**  **11 MEMBER HARRIS: ASRAC itself is**  **12 only an advisory committee, right. So, it**  **13 cannot kill or derail any proposal that comes**  **14 from this group. It can disagree with it. It**  **15 can take a different position. It can advise**  **16 the Department differently. But what comes**  **17 out of this will go through to the Department**  **18 in one way or another.**  **19 As a practical matter, the notion**  **20 that you put in months of work here and come**  **21 out with something, and the ASRAC would sort**  **22 of randomly say, "Nah, not so much," I** 

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### 1 wouldn't worry about that. **2 MR. EISNER: There have been, I 3 believe, two negotiated rulemakings that went**  **4 through ASRAC. Did they both come through 5 without any changes being made?**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Right. For the past 7 two, the Transformer and the Commercial Cert**  **8 Working Group, they went through ASRAC and 9 were actually turned into proposed rules and**  **10 final rules as they were recommended by the 11 group. So, I think that the track record**  **12 speaks for what it says. It is not a lengthy 13 one, but it seems likely that this will be**  **14 what ASRAC would adopt, unless there was some 15 reason they wouldn't.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Any 17 concerns about this paragraph c?**  **18 MEMBER SHEPHERD: This is Amy 19 Shepherd.**  **20 Is a transcript the same thing as 21 a meeting summary?**  **22 MR. EISNER: I believe what the**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ground rules say is that that is the summary**  **2 that is prepared. There is no separate**  **3 report.**  **4 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay. So, I**  **5 would, then, maybe suggest just changing the**  **6 second sentence to say "such transcript" as**  **7 opposed to "such meeting summary". But it is**  **8 probably just a lawyer thing. Sorry.**  **9 MR. EISNER: Anybody have a**  **10 problem with that? I think that is what was**  **11 intended.**  **12 MEMBER SHEPHERD: I don't know.**  **13 That was my question. I didn't know if they**  **14 were the same thing. If they are, then I**  **15 would just use the same word. But, if they**  **16 are something different, I think maybe we need**  **17 to clarify.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: I think in the**  **19 context of what we are doing here, they are**  **20 the same. So, when these ground rules may**  **21 have been started, there was not necessarily**  **22 the notion there would be a daily transcript.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We are going to be doing that here. So, there**  **2 will be no independent meeting summary because**  **3 that would be duplicative work with really no**  **4 purpose.**  **5 So, there will be a transcript**  **6 that we are committing to doing, we have**  **7 contracted to have done. And so, I think**  **8 using the word "transcript" is fine. I would**  **9 agree with that.**  **10 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen**  **11 with Rheem.**  **12 I remember at the last one, you**  **13 know, we would have PowerPoints that would**  **14 kind of summarize the different points that we**  **15 voted on and different things that we brought**  **16 up. And I considered that kind of the meeting**  **17 summary and the transcript to be something**  **18 different.**  **19 So, are we saying we are not going**  **20 to -- because it was very helpful to kind of**  **21 have all those issues that we laid out and how**  **22 we voted. And so, you didn't have to pour** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 through word-for-word of every single thing**  **2 that people said.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: So, I actually**  **5 thought of them as different. So, I don't**  **6 know.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: So, Karen, what you**  **8 are asking is can we do what we have done in**  **9 the last rulemaking as far as creating a**  **10 PowerPoint that everyone can look at later.**  **11 We could certainly talk about that. We don't**  **12 have one going on right now. But we can**  **13 certainly talk about that and getting that**  **14 resource together and do that.**  **15 I want this to be as helpful as**  **16 possible to people.**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, I think it**  **18 would be helpful, but that is just my opinion.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Excuse me. Based on**  **20 the way it worked the last time, we worked on**  **21 these things like we are working on this.**  **22 This would probably be changed and be made** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 available to everybody tomorrow morning. It**  **2 is just when we produce a document, it will be**  **3 made available, if that is what the group**  **4 wants.**  **5 I don't know that it has to go in**  **6 here. Transcripts have to be kept probably**  **7 under the Federal Advisory Committee Act or**  **8 some kind of summary.**  **9 But that is up to you. I think we**  **10 work on it; we create a work product.**  **11 Everybody wants a copy of it. That is what**  **12 happens.**  **13 Okay, anybody have any objection**  **14 to c as changed?**  **15 (No response.)**  **16 We probably need an "S" on the end**  **17 of "transcripts" to be consistent.**  **18 "Future amendments." Basically,**  **19 you can change this document any time you want**  **20 during the meeting if you get consensus to do**  **21 it.**  **22 Anybody have any questions or** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 problems with this?**  **2 MEMBER NOLL: So, I guess one. On**  **3 c, should it not say "meeting transcripts" if**  **4 we are talking about transcripts, the title?**  **5 MR. EISNER: Up in the heading?**  **6 MEMBER MEYERS: And are we going**  **7 to have meeting summaries?**  **8 MEMBER NOLL: And then, do we need**  **9 a separate section for summaries or is that**  **10 something that the group will do ad hoc or**  **11 informally?**  **12 MR. EISNER: Well, you are talking**  **13 about what Karen was just talking about?**  **14 MEMBER NOLL: Right.**  **15 MR. EISNER: From my perspective,**  **16 I didn't consider those summaries of meetings.**  **17 It was a work product created during the**  **18 meeting. This is what we all agreed to on**  **19 that particular day. It doesn't say anything**  **20 about the discussions or what other issues**  **21 might have been discussed that day. But, if**  **22 you want to, we could put something in about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the work product at the meetings.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right, and we can**  **3 create a ground rule here, I mean, if you want**  **4 to create some sort of ground rule.**  **5 But what I am hearing between you**  **6 and Neil is possibly a difference of opinion**  **7 about what the actual substance was, that**  **8 those running PowerPoints that were being**  **9 edited over time of what was going on weren't**  **10 actually a summary of what was discussed in**  **11 the previous meeting. It was kind of: here's**  **12 where we are.**  **13 And so, everyone could refer back**  **14 to it and say, "Here's what we discussed.**  **15 Here's the final analysis we got to last time.**  **16 We can pick up from here," because they were**  **17 kind of an evolving document over time.**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: So, yes, I agree,**  **19 that's exactly what it was. So, to that**  **20 point, I think I would like to add a "d" for**  **21 work product. So that we make sure that a**  **22 work product -- I don't know how we want to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 word it, but that there is one available that**  **2 we work from versus just --**  **3 MR. EISNER: "Any documents**  **4 created during a Working Group meeting will be**  **5 made available to the public as soon as**  **6 possible."?**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, what he said.**  **8 (Laughter.)**  **9 "To the group".**  **10 Everybody okay with that?**  **11 (No response.)**  **12 All right. We are almost there.**  **13 "Future amendments." You can make changes at**  **14 any time you want.**  **15 Anybody have any problem?**  **16 (No response.)**  **17 All right. We are done.**  **18 Does anybody want to go back to**  **19 any of the sections? Do you want to go**  **20 through the sections quickly and look at them**  **21 as they were amended up on the screen? Or are**  **22 you ready to vote?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **2 White.**  **3 I just have one kind of question.**  **4 It is a public meeting. We are keeping a**  **5 transcript. Do we have any policy about**  **6 containing any of this among the committee or**  **7 reporting to others? I mean, I don't think we**  **8 want to see an article in a trade magazine**  **9 listing all the things we have done, but is**  **10 there any -- just a question -- any policy or**  **11 way we want to look at that type of how we**  **12 control --**  **13 MR. EISNER: The meeting is open**  **14 to the public. So, anybody can come and be**  **15 here.**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Yes.**  **17 MR. EISNER: So, are you asking**  **18 whether --**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: I am just asking,**  **20 do we have a policy to keep things amongst**  **21 ourselves or share? Is there a way this has**  **22 been done in the past?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: In my experience with**  **2 these kinds of meetings, and I think that is**  **3 true for any federal advisory committee**  **4 meeting, what goes on in that public meeting**  **5 doesn't stay in that meeting. It is available**  **6 to the public.**  **7 Generally speaking, the people who**  **8 are here are going to be coming to these**  **9 meetings somewhat regularly or others are**  **10 going to be coming. They are going to be**  **11 interested in it. But there is no reason a**  **12 media person could not come from a trade**  **13 journal, listen-in on the meeting, take notes.**  **14 I don't think there is any way the agency**  **15 could preclude that person.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Yes. This is Doug**  **17 Rawald.**  **18 The only two things that strike me**  **19 from this whole conversation would be there**  **20 would be a concern of, is what you are saying**  **21 about the public meeting in conflict with what**  **22 you said in the meeting? So, are you slacking** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 your representative capacity in what you are**  **2 saying? So, being careful that you are being**  **3 consistent with what you are saying and not**  **4 contradicting what you are saying in the**  **5 meeting to us.**  **6 And two, are you in any sort of**  **7 way acting not in good faith? So, are you**  **8 using this to in some way engender a way of**  **9 running around the committee? Then, that**  **10 would be going afoul of what Neil talked about**  **11 initially, that we are all negotiating in good**  **12 faith.**  **13 So, as long as those two things**  **14 are not involved, I think that, I mean, this**  **15 is all public and any discussion of it would**  **16 be totally appropriate.**  **17 MR. EISNER: This is a complete**  **18 record. And this complete record is available**  **19 to the public.**  **20 MEMBER DORIA: Yes, this is Jordan**  **21 Doria with Ingersoll Rand.**  **22 I don't know that we need to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 modify the ground rule, but I would say that**  **2 some of the points that were made when we all**  **3 introduced ourselves is that there is a lot of**  **4 interest in this subject and a lot of interest**  **5 in getting it resolved soon. And more**  **6 importantly, there is a lot of confusion.**  **7 I think we would all add to the**  **8 confusion if we started running off to our**  **9 respective -- if I went off to all the dealers**  **10 that install products and said, "Here's where**  **11 the negotiations stand today," and everyone**  **12 did the same thing, and every two weeks we did**  **13 that, I think that would not be advantageous**  **14 for any of us. And I think we all kind of**  **15 recognize that.**  **16 So, I don't think a blow-by-blow,**  **17 even though we are going to get questions and**  **18 we are getting them already, I think that**  **19 would not be good. So, I don't know that it**  **20 belongs in the ground rules, but I will just**  **21 say I think it would be in everyone's best**  **22 interest to kind of, to a large extent, wait** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 until we have a finished product here, and**  **2 then, share that with the people that are not**  **3 directly involved in this, but certainly are**  **4 directly impacted by the result.**  **5 MR. EISNER: All right. And I**  **6 think you have agreed to basically negotiate**  **7 through this forum. That is what good faith**  **8 is all about.**  **9 So, it is a fact that yesterday we**  **10 wrote the ground rules, but it is going beyond**  **11 facts when you start to say, "I'm not happy**  **12 with the ground rules because I think they are**  **13 going to do the following." That would be**  **14 contrary to the good faith I think that**  **15 everybody said they had in coming to these**  **16 meetings.**  **17 I think I agree with the point**  **18 that was just made. You've got to be careful**  **19 of that, and not look like you are trying to**  **20 negotiate outside by talking to the media.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. And, Jordan,**  **22 this is Doug.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 In response to your point, there**  **2 also is an obligation to caucus with your**  **3 interest as well, right? So, we have got to**  **4 be able to allow you to go back and talk to**  **5 people about what happened because you have**  **6 got to be able to get their input, so that you**  **7 can come back and say, "Well, I talked to**  **8 John, Sally, and George, and they agreed," or**  **9 they disagreed. And so, you can reflect their**  **10 interests.**  **11 So, I do want to run a little**  **12 careful because people do need to be talking**  **13 to people. And so, we don't want people**  **14 feeling their gagged.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other**  **16 questions? Problems? Issues?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: I guess I want to**  **18 raise a procedural point. So, we have Charlie**  **19 Harak who is not here. He is one of the**  **20 members. So, can we vote on this without him**  **21 or do we have to wait for him to appear to**  **22 vote on these ground rules?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: No.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **3 MR. EISNER: That is my**  **4 understanding. Again, that can be changed.**  **5 Generally speaking, you have to be at the**  **6 meeting. There is some stuff about**  **7 attendance.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **9 MR. EISNER: He got short notice.**  **10 I think what we have discussed, if**  **11 he comes back and says he is troubled by**  **12 something or he has got problems with**  **13 something, we should talk to him, we should**  **14 listen to him, we should address them.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **16 MR. EISNER: But we have got a**  **17 tight schedule. We have got to move on.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: And also, we haven't**  **19 heard from Dave Hungerford at all, who is**  **20 online.**  **21 MR. EISNER: That is a good point.**  **22 Dave, are you still with us** 

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### 1 online? **2 (No response.) 3 You usually have an indication of**  **4 there is a problem with communications, don't 5 you?**  **6 By the way, I forgot; Doug also 7 got a question earlier this morning about**  **8 alternates and lobbyists. And he has got an 9 answer now that we can share.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, as I 11 mentioned earlier, both the folks from ACCA**  **12 and HARDI -- excuse me, running your names 13 together -- approached me about the fact that**  **14 there was a recently-released clarification 15 from the Office of Management and Budget**  **16 regarding the President's rule regarding 17 lobbyists being involved in these committees.**  **18 And the ethical opinion of our 19 Office is that, in light of that opinion**  **20 yesterday, that lobbyists that are registered 21 can act as alternates to members who are**  **22 already sitting on this committee as long as**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 they are acting in a representative capacity.**  **2 That is the most important part here.**  **3 Because, as we all are operating**  **4 in our representative capacities, those folks**  **5 also can be your alternate as long as they are**  **6 acting in a representative capacity.**  **7 So, if anybody wants to discuss**  **8 more what that means or how that works, then,**  **9 we can, of course, seek further ethical**  **10 guidance. But I think that answers the**  **11 question for John and for Charlie back there.**  **12 MR. EISNER: The question --**  **13 MEMBER HUNGERFORD: Hi. This is**  **14 David Hungerford.**  **15 I just wanted to let you know that**  **16 I am listening and I am hanging in the**  **17 background because of the difficulty of sort**  **18 of chiming-in usually here.**  **19 I don't disagree with anything**  **20 that is going here. And if I do, I will speak**  **21 up or I will notify Jeremiah that I need to**  **22 say something.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But, yes, as far as a**  **2 representative today, I think this is looking**  **3 fine to me. I don't have any problems. It is**  **4 consistent with what we have done with the**  **5 other Working Groups.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Thank you.**  **7 Anybody else have anything?**  **8 (No response.)**  **9 All right. Let's go on to the**  **10 next issue, which is development of schedule**  **11 for the negotiation meetings. You should have**  **12 a document that looks like this.**  **13 Oh, I'm sorry, yes, we were about**  **14 to do that. We now need to decide whether we**  **15 want to vote on this. We started to talk**  **16 about that, whether we wanted to go back,**  **17 scroll down, and look at all the changes or**  **18 whether you are ready to say yes or no.**  **19 Anybody want to go back and go**  **20 through each one individually or look at the**  **21 screens at least for a few seconds?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: And I guess one** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 option we could put on the table, from the**  **2 Department's point of view -- this is Doug**  **3 Rawald -- is we could have someone print these**  **4 out, and you could think about them overnight,**  **5 if you prefer, and then, come back and vote on**  **6 them tomorrow. We can vote on them today. It**  **7 is really whatever works best for folks, but**  **8 I want to at least put out there that we have**  **9 support tools ready to help do that, if that**  **10 is what you folks would prefer to do.**  **11 Actually, I think that Jeremiah**  **12 probably could email to you right now, if we**  **13 want to.**  **14 MR. EISNER: We can send the**  **15 redline out, so you will see what we did**  **16 change.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. If that will**  **18 work for everyone, we can actually go ahead**  **19 and do that. And we can take a break and**  **20 folks look at their email and come back, or we**  **21 can talk about them tomorrow, whatever the**  **22 group wants. But I am saying we have options.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Would everybody like**  **2 to look at it?**  **3 MEMBER HARRIS: This is Scott**  **4 Harris.**  **5 I propose we vote on them today.**  **6 We have just been through them. We know what**  **7 they say. We know what they mean. And if we**  **8 do everything here twice, it is going to be a**  **9 much longer-than-necessary process.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Anybody else?**  **11 (No response.)**  **12 Do you want to do that now? Would**  **13 you like us to scroll through or are you ready**  **14 to vote? Anybody want to scroll through?**  **15 (No response.)**  **16 Okay, let's take a vote on the**  **17 ground rules as they have been changed during**  **18 this meeting.**  **19 Is there anybody who objects to**  **20 the ground rules the way they are written?**  **21 (No response.)**  **22 Okay. Consider them adopted.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Let's talk about the schedule.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **3 So, we will accept all the changes**  **4 that were tracked, and then, Jeremiah will**  **5 email them around for folks to have, so you**  **6 can have them this evening.**  **7 MR. EISNER: Okay. You should**  **8 have a short document. It just sets out a**  **9 bunch of dates for meetings, starting today,**  **10 going through the middle of October for the**  **11 fifth meeting, and the October 30th date for**  **12 the final recommendation. All those dates**  **13 that are on there, except the final**  **14 recommendation date, are Wednesdays and**  **15 Thursdays.**  **16 Again, the meetings right now, we**  **17 are meeting this week; it is 9:00 to 5:00. We**  **18 can change the times. We can change the days.**  **19 This is something we thought we would just**  **20 send out in draft, so we can have something to**  **21 start talking about.**  **22 And one of the issues we should** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 focus on is, considering that this is the**  **2 first of the five meetings, and we will be**  **3 spending a bit more time on process stuff,**  **4 next will be work defining the issues and the**  **5 order we want to discuss them in, et cetera.**  **6 Is this enough time? Do you right now feel**  **7 comfortable with the schedule or should we**  **8 schedule more meetings in this timeframe?**  **9 So, ready to start anyplace**  **10 anybody wants. Should we start with the last**  **11 point first? Is everybody comfortable with**  **12 four-plus meetings to discuss substance,**  **13 assuming two-day meetings, going from 9:00 to**  **14 5:00 right now?**  **15 MEMBER HARRIS: Can I just ask,**  **16 how did we get these particular dates, and**  **17 whether or not someone checked to see people's**  **18 availability? Because I am out of town the**  **19 first four dates you have got mentioned. And,**  **20 you know, if it is just me, it is not a big**  **21 deal, but I just don't know what people's**  **22 schedules are like or whether we did some** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 survey to see who was available when or**  **2 whether these were just selected.**  **3 MR. EISNER: That is a good**  **4 question, Scott.**  **5 Generally, in negotiated**  **6 rulemakings it has been found that two days of**  **7 meetings, sometimes three when you are**  **8 rushing, but two days of meetings every couple**  **9 of weeks is about the most you will want.**  **10 The only thing that we schedule**  **11 around is vacation time I have planned in**  **12 September. Otherwise, it is every two weeks,**  **13 Wednesdays and Thursdays.**  **14 That doesn't mean that can't be**  **15 moved. We can do two weeks in a row and,**  **16 then, skip a week, if we want.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Scott,**  **18 this is Doug Rawald.**  **19 So, there has been no polling of**  **20 anybody. These are just dates that Neil has**  **21 posed out there as a talking point.**  **22 We did use Wednesdays and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Thursdays. I am completely unavailable on**  **2 Tuesdays. I am never here on Tuesdays because**  **3 I am away teaching. So, that is a constraint**  **4 that I put on Neil. Everything else is open**  **5 for folks to discuss.**  **6 I will note that -- Gary will be**  **7 familiar with this -- in the pumps rulemaking,**  **8 what we actually did was we started late on**  **9 one day and ended earlier the next day, so**  **10 folks could travel in the morning of and**  **11 travel out the night of the next meeting. So,**  **12 there is some flexibility here as far as the**  **13 timing goes.**  **14 The rooms are generally only**  **15 available until 6:00 p.m. So, we can't go**  **16 much later than that.**  **17 So, those are kind of just the**  **18 logistical constraints that we could think**  **19 about.**  **20 MR. EISNER: And again, the last**  **21 regulatory negotiations we did, because of**  **22 some constraints DOE had in meeting rooms, was** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we would ask people who have buildings in the**  **2 Washington area where a conference like this,**  **3 of this size could be held, if we could use**  **4 their meeting rooms.**  **5 So, there are things we can do.**  **6 This is just something to start the**  **7 discussion.**  **8 Yes?**  **9 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes. Bryan Rocky**  **10 from Johnson Controls.**  **11 So, the only thing I saw in**  **12 looking at this is we start with the first two**  **13 meetings that are two weeks apart. The last**  **14 two meetings are two weeks apart. But we only**  **15 meet once in six weeks in between. And I**  **16 think that is where the meat of all the work**  **17 is going to try to get done. So, unless we**  **18 are planning for subcommittees --**  **19 MR. EISNER: I think the one**  **20 difference is --**  **21 MEMBER ROCKY: There is only one**  **22 meeting in September.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Yes, but that is**  **2 where we had three weeks instead of two weeks,**  **3 and then, we were back on a two-week schedule.**  **4 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes. Yes, well, it**  **5 is three weeks after the August meeting, and**  **6 it is three weeks before the October meeting.**  **7 MR. EISNER: It is two weeks**  **8 before the October meeting, I believe, the**  **9 17th and 18th, and then, October 1st and 2nd.**  **10 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes, okay.**  **11 MR. EISNER: I may be wrong.**  **12 MEMBER ROCKY: So, again, just a**  **13 view, if I was looking at this, I think we**  **14 need one more meeting in September, not that**  **15 I need more meetings, but maybe I am in the**  **16 minority in that.**  **17 Also, personally, I would prefer**  **18 Wednesday/Thursday rather than**  **19 Tuesday/Wednesdays, or something else.**  **20 I know, I understand. I am**  **21 expressing an opinion.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: He is saying he likes** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Wednesdays/Thursdays. He is letting everyone**  **2 know.**  **3 MEMBER ROCKY: I am supporting the**  **4 position that --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Yes, he is actually**  **6 supporting us.**  **7 This is Doug Rawald.**  **8 So, I think that is helpful to**  **9 know that at least one person is comfortable**  **10 with the Wednesday/Thursday meet schedule and**  **11 it works for them.**  **12 Let's talk about that. How do**  **13 people feel about Wednesdays/Thursdays as a**  **14 general kind of a concept? Does that work for**  **15 people? Is that a doable dual days?**  **16 MR. EISNER: Okay. What about**  **17 number of meetings? Anybody believe this is**  **18 more than necessary, less than necessary, or**  **19 good to start with?**  **20 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **21 from Allied.**  **22 To join into what Bryan had** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 mentioned, the one date here, the 17th and**  **2 18th of September, kind of in line with what**  **3 Bryan was saying, but there is a CEE**  **4 industry/partner meeting that some key members**  **5 here may have -- I don't know -- an**  **6 affiliation with.**  **7 So, if we could reach an agreement**  **8 to work around that, I think that might --**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Dave, what is the**  **10 date of that meeting?**  **11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: The 17th and**  **12 18th.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, it seems**  **14 like that would be a non-starter then. We**  **15 should not have a meeting that day if you guys**  **16 are all going to be gone that day.**  **17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Well, I am**  **18 bringing it up. I don't know. I know a**  **19 number of the faces here I saw at that meeting**  **20 last year.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Perhaps we can**  **22 get a show of hands. How many people were** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 intending to go to that meeting on the 17th**  **2 and 18th of September?**  **3 (Show of hands.)**  **4 Okay. So, it seems like at least**  **5 half the group possibly wouldn't be able to be**  **6 here. So, maybe we should at least reschedule**  **7 that one.**  **8 Neil mentioned that he was going**  **9 to be on vacation one week. And obviously, we**  **10 can't do this without Neil.**  **11 Neil, what week were you out?**  **12 MR. EISNER: It was the first full**  **13 week in September. I think it starts**  **14 September 6th, 8th. Maybe Monday is the 8th.**  **15 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, this is**  **16 Matt Lattanzi.**  **17 I was going to throw out the week**  **18 of the 8th. Do a week prior instead of the**  **19 week after. I also have commitments the week**  **20 of the 15th as well.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: The week of the 1st**  **22 you're saying?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LATTANZI: The week of the**  **2 8th.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Well, Neil just said**  **4 he can't do the week of the 8th.**  **5 MEMBER LATTANZI: Oh, I thought he**  **6 said he was the week of the 1st.**  **7 MR. EISNER: No, I said it is the**  **8 second --**  **9 MEMBER LATTANZI: Oh, the**  **10 second --**  **11 MEMBER LATTANZI: -- the first**  **12 full week, I think. It is the week after**  **13 Labor Day.**  **14 MEMBER LATTANZI: Oh, okay.**  **15 That's the week of the 8th then. Okay.**  **16 MEMBER GIBBONS: Yes, this is John**  **17 from Carrier.**  **18 Given those dates where there is**  **19 some conflict, why don't we look at the 3rd**  **20 and the 4th, and then, come back to Bryan's**  **21 earlier point, do the 24th and 25th in**  **22 September? Because he is right, you know, we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have got to get this done. It looks like we**  **2 are back-end-loading this a little bit too**  **3 much for my comfort.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **5 So, the only question that comes**  **6 up, is going here August 27th and 28th, and**  **7 then, coming back the following week, is that**  **8 going to work for folks or is that too much**  **9 travel for some people? And I am looking at**  **10 Gary because he is coming from California, but**  **11 there are some people who might have some**  **12 travel constraints.**  **13 Obviously, for me, I am going to**  **14 be here. I mean, I am here in the building.**  **15 So, it is easy. So, I can commit to these**  **16 things. But I want to make sure it works for**  **17 everybody.**  **18 Yes?**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: I have a quick**  **20 question. This is Elizabeth from NRDC.**  **21 My question on the timing, and for**  **22 people who have done this before, it would be** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 helpful to know, like how much work in between**  **2 meetings is done, like of subgroups or data**  **3 analysis? Because, to me, it seems like you**  **4 might want three weeks to go back to the**  **5 drawing board and meet as a subgroup, and**  **6 then, back in where you are meeting on voting**  **7 more consistently. Just thoughts from the**  **8 group on that?**  **9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, this is**  **10 Gary for the California IOUs.**  **11 I think the answer is it depends.**  **12 In the Pump Working Group, a lot of work was**  **13 done by the industry representatives between**  **14 meetings and by DOE's consultants, trying to**  **15 get sales data and other data being input into**  **16 the process correct.**  **17 But this opportunity doesn't have**  **18 quite the same requirements. So, my feeling**  **19 is, you know, not a lot of work is done other**  **20 than trying to come to agreement on the**  **21 recommendations and positions that we have.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Right. It all seems** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 like that that time may be used for caucusing**  **2 with your interests, to kind of go out there**  **3 and say, "Okay, folks, here is where we are.**  **4 Is everyone okay with this before we proceed?"**  **5 But I don't see this being a very**  **6 data-heavy collection or a lot of work. As a**  **7 matter of fact, we probably will be doing more**  **8 work on our end, trying to keep everything**  **9 organized and getting the transcripts done.**  **10 But, from the folks who are participating**  **11 otherwise, I think that there is no reason why**  **12 we couldn't do a meeting one week after the**  **13 other, as long as people are comfortable doing**  **14 that, understanding the limitations of our**  **15 schedule and the fact that we have to have an**  **16 answer soon.**  **17 MEMBER PORTER: Yes, Steve Porter**  **18 for HARDI.**  **19 I agree, we can't let this go past**  **20 October 30th. I mean, we have too many people**  **21 that are making inventory decisions, and this**  **22 rule has already cost them enough financially.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: So, what it sounds**  **2 like, are people generally available? Let's**  **3 talk about the first meeting, August 27th and**  **4 28th. Are people generally available for**  **5 that? Is that going to be something that we**  **6 can put on the paper? We are going to do that**  **7 meeting for sure?**  **8 MR. EISNER: The 27th and 28th?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right. That first**  **10 meeting.**  **11 Let's just get the dates down, and**  **12 then, we will talk about the timing. So, as**  **13 far as that goes, those two days will work for**  **14 everyone? And then, we could go from there.**  **15 And then, what folks seemingly are**  **16 asking for is September 3rd and 4th. So, the**  **17 following week, having another meeting. And**  **18 then, two weeks off before we come back at the**  **19 end of September. So, that would be September**  **20 2nd -- or September 3rd and 4th.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Coming back two weeks**  **22 later would be the 24th and 25th.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right. September**  **2 24th and 25th.**  **3 MEMBER MEYERS: So, neither of**  **4 those options work for me.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **6 MEMBER MEYERS: I would just as**  **7 soon stay with the 17th and 18th at this**  **8 point.**  **9 MEMBER NOLL: What about the 15th**  **10 and 16th, just for that one week, a**  **11 Monday/Tuesday?**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: I can't do that.**  **13 MEMBER NOLL: No?**  **14 One Tuesday out of the entire --**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I will**  **16 try. If it works for everybody else, I will**  **17 try to make it work. I mean, my constraint is**  **18 a personal matter. It is not the**  **19 Department's. So, certainly the Department is**  **20 my boss. So, I will follow that.**  **21 MEMBER NOLL: Could we have a**  **22 substitute facilitator for the week of** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 September 8th? Is that a potential? **2 MR. EISNER: It is more an issue 3 for the Department. They would have to hire**  **4 someone else. 5 MR. RAWALD: Right. Because of**  **6 Neil's contract, I think it is easier for me 7 to adjust my schedule than it would be for**  **8 Neil. So, let's do that. So, I don't want 9 hold anyone back.**  **10 If the 15th and 16th work, and 11 that doesn't conflict with this other**  **12 conference that Dave had mentioned to us 13 earlier, then perhaps we could put that**  **14 forward as the third meeting. 15 MEMBER LATTANZI: I have an idea**  **16 to throw out. 17 This is Matt Lattanzi.**  **18 How about can we propose maybe 19 that week of the 15th just having a one-day**  **20 meeting as opposed to the two? What does the 21 group think about that? It seems like it is**  **22 a very busy week for a lot of people in here.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, I absolutely**  **2 can't do the 15th and 16th. I could do the**  **3 17th and 18th easier. So, as long as it is**  **4 one of those days, then -- I mean, there is a**  **5 conflict every day.**  **6 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, I am in**  **7 that camp, too, Karen. This is Gary.**  **8 The end of the week works for me,**  **9 but the beginning doesn't.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: And, Dave -- this is**  **11 Doug Rawald -- so what are the dates of that**  **12 conference? I mean, is it --**  **13 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: It is the 17th**  **14 and 18th all day.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, would you**  **16 be able to accommodate the Friday?**  **17 MEMBER LATTANZI: Yes, how about**  **18 the 18th and the 19th?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Or just do a one-day**  **20 on the 19th?**  **21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: It is in Salt**  **22 Lake City.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ROCKY: Couldn't we have a**  **2 couple of days without a facilitator and see**  **3 what work we can get done? I mean, honestly,**  **4 we all know one another. We can get some work**  **5 done. So, we don't have a facilitator. When**  **6 he comes back in, we show him what we have**  **7 done in the meantime, and he facilitates from**  **8 there.**  **9 MR. EISNER: That is more your**  **10 decision.**  **11 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes. I mean --**  **12 MEMBER HARRIS: I nominate Doug as**  **13 the substitute facilitator, actually.**  **14 MEMBER ROCKY: So do I.**  **15 MR. EISNER: The question is --**  **16 and I realize you have got a rulemaking**  **17 requirement coming in, and you have got a**  **18 request from ASRAC. Is this the type of thing**  **19 where you want to ask ASRAC for more time?**  **20 (Chorus of noes from the group.)**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Well, let's turn back**  **22 to this September 2nd, that week of the first** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 week of September. Karen voiced an inability**  **2 to come. Is that completely for the entire**  **3 week, Karen?**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: The 4th is --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, you could come**  **6 for the 3rd?**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: Right.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: And would you be able**  **9 to call-in on the 4th at all or would you --**  **10 okay. And would you be able to send an**  **11 alternate on the 4th?**  **12 Okay. Can everyone else be**  **13 available September 3rd and 4th?**  **14 Okay, Ray is shaking his head no.**  **15 Okay.**  **16 MEMBER HARRIS: I will be in**  **17 Paris, and I'm not calling in.**  **18 (Laughter.)**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's fair.**  **20 And, Ray, could you send an**  **21 alternate to that meeting? Okay.**  **22 So, that is an option for the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 table, is that we could have a meeting without**  **2 Scott and with some alternates here for some**  **3 folks that are pretty involved. That is for**  **4 the 3rd and 4th.**  **5 MR. EISNER: So, we have generally**  **6 got agreement we can do the 27th/28th, the 3rd**  **7 and the 4th. There is a question about**  **8 whether you want to meet the next week without**  **9 a facilitator. Then, there is a question of**  **10 when the next meeting could be in September.**  **11 Nothing in that week of the 17th**  **12 and 18th works with anybody?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: It seems a lot of**  **14 conflicts that week. Everyone seems to have**  **15 something going on.**  **16 The 24th and 25th, now Karen**  **17 voiced a concern with those dates as well.**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: Well, we have**  **19 industry meetings somewhere around the 24th.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **21 MR. HURST: Could that be pushed a**  **22 day, Karen, because we would all be in D.C.?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I mean, if we could push that a day, that**  **2 would be perfect. We have GAC on the 24th.**  **3 But, if you could push that to the 25th, that**  **4 would be perfect.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, how about we**  **6 tentatively agree to do the 24th and 25th?**  **7 And then, Karen, if you cannot**  **8 move that meeting, maybe we can consider doing**  **9 the 25th/26th and doing a Friday meeting, as**  **10 rare as that would be for folks.**  **11 Would that work for everybody?**  **12 So, Karen, if you can report back**  **13 to us, and how long it will take you to find**  **14 out if you can move that meeting?**  **15 MEMBER MEYERS: I will email you.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Okay, great.**  **17 So, Amy, if you can just let**  **18 Jeremiah know, and he can blast everyone about**  **19 that.**  **20 MR. HURST: Could you do 24/25,**  **21 and then, move the GAC to 23?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: That is the initial** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 position that we are taking.**  **2 MR. HURST: Okay. Thank you.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: And that is John from**  **4 Lennox, correct?**  **5 MR. HURST: Correct. Thank you.**  **6 MR. EISNER: All right. So, we**  **7 have the possibility of the 24th and the 25th.**  **8 Then, we have got October 1st and 2nd, the**  **9 following week. Do we want to do that? That**  **10 allows us to, then, have another meeting in**  **11 mid-October.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right. What that**  **13 will do is we will have this meeting. Then,**  **14 we will have two meetings in a row in two**  **15 weeks. Then, we will have a break. Then, we**  **16 have two two-week meetings again.**  **17 Right. So, as long as folks are**  **18 interested in doing that, we can press forward**  **19 with that plan.**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **21 Gary.**  **22 This schedule will be a strong** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 motivation for us to get together and work**  **2 things out quickly.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. I agree.**  **4 MEMBER NOLL: So, if it is more**  **5 about just being in the room negotiating, if**  **6 we are going to have back-to-back meetings,**  **7 does it make more sense to have three days in**  **8 a row rather than four two-week -- I mean, I**  **9 am just throwing that out there. Do a**  **10 Wednesday, Thursday, Friday as opposed to**  **11 Wednesday/Thursday for back-to-back weeks, for**  **12 people who are coming from California.**  **13 MR. EISNER: That is especially**  **14 valuable if you want to start late on the**  **15 first day and end early on the last day, so**  **16 people can get flights out. Then, it is even**  **17 more valuable to have three days of meetings,**  **18 more efficient.**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: I'm here, so it is**  **20 not -- I'm coming, but I am just --**  **21 MR. EISNER: But I am mentioning**  **22 it for people from out of town.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER PORTER: It is easier for**  **2 me on the West Coast, I know that, to do that.**  **3 And I wouldn't be opposed on that October 1/2,**  **4 that we make it a three also, just because if**  **5 we get close, we could close the whole thing**  **6 out and may want to be available that Friday**  **7 to end it. And we wouldn't have an October**  **8 15/16.**  **9 MR. EISNER: A comment in the**  **10 back?**  **11 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena,**  **12 National Association of Homebuilders.**  **13 The first week in October are the**  **14 International Green Construction Code hearings**  **15 being held in Fort Lauderdale. Some of you**  **16 suppliers may be going to that or may be**  **17 interested in it. That may form a conflict**  **18 for some people.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Thank you.**  **20 So, any interest in three-day**  **21 meetings?**  **22 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 White.**  **2 Three-day meetings don't bother**  **3 me.**  **4 As one who travels, I really need**  **5 three weeks' notice to get decent flights.**  **6 So, the next meeting is two weeks. I am going**  **7 to bite the bullet on that, I guess. I know**  **8 we can call-in, but I don't think it is as**  **9 valuable to call-in as to be here. I think it**  **10 is important to be here. Having said that, I**  **11 may have to call-in for some of them.**  **12 But, when we hope to get done**  **13 early, those of us that travel are probably**  **14 going to be booking trips in advance of that.**  **15 So, if we think we are going to get it done**  **16 the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, the 15th/16th I really**  **17 need to have a ticket in my hand before the**  **18 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. So, for the traveling**  **19 folks, you are making it a challenge. But I**  **20 will do what I have to do.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Well, how about we do**  **22 this: let's take an informal poll of who** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would prefer to have three-day meetings.**  **2 Let's see how many people that would be a**  **3 preference for. You know, you would prefer to**  **4 have three-day meetings.**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: If it is a half and**  **6 a half.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right. I do hear**  **8 that. You guys are correct.**  **9 MR. EISNER: It is the same thing**  **10 if you do a two-day meeting if you come in at**  **11 noon on the first day and leave at 2:00 on the**  **12 second day. You have got a smaller meeting,**  **13 too.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **15 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **16 I am local. I get very tired in**  **17 three-day meetings. On the other hand, I**  **18 think there is an obligation to try to get**  **19 this off our table as quickly as possible and**  **20 as thoroughly. I hadn't thought about three**  **21 day meetings, but I think it is something that**  **22 is worth trying at least to give this process** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a good shot at finishing up early. There is**  **2 just too much that has to be done when we are**  **3 done for DOE to get guidance out on the**  **4 street.**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **6 White.**  **7 Having said that, why wouldn't we**  **8 be advised to try to do a three-day meeting**  **9 the next meeting, the 27th/28th, however that**  **10 works out, and see how it works? If we do get**  **11 a lot done, if it is beneficial, we can, then,**  **12 move from there. Instead of trying to do a**  **13 three-day meeting at the end, if we are going**  **14 to try to speed it up by doing a three-day**  **15 meeting, let's do it.**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: That's going into**  **17 Labor Day weekend.**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: Well, you're not**  **19 working anyway, right?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Is that correct? I**  **21 thought Labor Day was September 8th.**  **22 MEMBER NOLL: Yes, but, I mean,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the 29th is the Friday before Labor Day, the**  **2 Friday of Labor Day weekend.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Labor Day is not**  **4 September 8th?**  **5 MEMBER NOLL: It is September 1st.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: September 1st. Oh,**  **7 okay.**  **8 MEMBER LATTANZI: This is Matt**  **9 Lattanzi.**  **10 I mean, I kind of like the idea of**  **11 a three-day meeting, and the week of August**  **12 25th sounds good. I mean, I do have some**  **13 issues with that September 24 and 25, presents**  **14 some problems, but I might be able to possibly**  **15 get an alternate.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Yes, I would have an**  **17 issue with the afternoon of the 29th. If we**  **18 could go the third day earlier in the week --**  **19 we are talking August now?**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: I nominate August**  **21 26th, 27th.**  **22 This is Harvey.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I nominate August 26, 27, 28, with**  **2 the goal of a late-morning start the 26th and**  **3 an early close on the 28th.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: And I could do that.**  **5 I mean, my teaching doesn't start until after**  **6 Labor Day. So, that is fine for me.**  **7 MEMBER ELLIS: This is Ray Ellis**  **8 from Lincoln Electric.**  **9 The three-day meetings I am all**  **10 for. But, if you start at noon, because I**  **11 have to start by horseback, I can't get here**  **12 in a half a day.**  **13 (Laughter.)**  **14 It takes too long. So, I have to**  **15 spend the day prior, you know, traveling. And**  **16 going home, it is almost the same thing. I**  **17 will leave here late in the day and get home**  **18 the next day.**  **19 So, if you are going to do three**  **20 days, I would just as soon do three full days.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Does the horse wait**  **22 for you to get back?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes, I've got it**  **2 tied up.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I think**  **4 all of us D.C. folks, we would have to defer**  **5 to the people who are traveling on the concern**  **6 about what time we start and what time we end**  **7 on these meetings, because the rest of us are**  **8 local.**  **9 So, for those of you who are not**  **10 local, if it sounds like you are going to get**  **11 here the night before anyway, which California**  **12 almost certainly will, and I imagine those**  **13 will, then we might as well start early and**  **14 end at a decent hour the last day. If you**  **15 could possibly catch a flight home that day,**  **16 I think that would be preferred, right, so you**  **17 won't pay for that night?**  **18 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes, the flight**  **19 leaves, mine leaves at 5:00 tomorrow.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **21 MEMBER WHITE: I would second**  **22 that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It is Chuck White.**  **2 If we are coming for three days,**  **3 let's start the first thing on the first day**  **4 and end as late as we think we can on the**  **5 third day, and not half and half.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Everybody has agreed?**  **7 Is everybody comfortable right now? We are**  **8 going the 26th, 27th, and 28th. And start on**  **9 the first day at nine o'clock in the morning?**  **10 And on the second day, sometime late in the**  **11 afternoon? What would be the latest you --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: The third day.**  **13 MR. EISNER: The third day. I'm**  **14 sorry. What time is everybody comfortable**  **15 with? Do they want to go to 5:00 or do they**  **16 want to end early on the third day?**  **17 MEMBER ELLIS: I've got to leave**  **18 by 3:00.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Okay, three o'clock**  **20 is what Ray is saying.**  **21 This is Doug Rawald.**  **22 MR. EISNER: Is three o'clock** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 okay?**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Anyone else need to**  **3 leave earlier than that or is three o'clock a**  **4 good -- this is our steadfast stop time.**  **5 Karen?**  **6 MEMBER MEYERS: Are we talking**  **7 three-day meetings every time?**  **8 MR. RAWALD: No, Karen, we are**  **9 talking about the first time.**  **10 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Because we are going**  **12 to follow Chuck's recommendation of trying it**  **13 out, seeing if it is working, if having Harvey**  **14 sleep every meeting doesn't work -- (laughter)**  **15 -- and then, we will revisit the idea.**  **16 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay. I can**  **17 absolutely do the 26th, 27th, and 28th.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And with three**  **19 o'clock being the solid end time on the 28th,**  **20 so people can catch all their flights and know**  **21 what they need to do. Does that work for**  **22 everybody?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: That works for me.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Okay. With a nine**  **3 o'clock start time on the 26th and a 9:00-to**  **4 5:00 day both the 26th and 27th? Okay?**  **5 MR. EISNER: All right. So, we**  **6 have got the first two meetings. The third**  **7 meeting, September 3rd and 4th right now. Do**  **8 we want to keep that? Do we want to expand**  **9 that?**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Right. If we are**  **11 going to be here for three days the week**  **12 before, I would recommend we not have that**  **13 meeting September 3rd and 4th. I mean, that**  **14 is my thought.**  **15 MR. EISNER: That seems to be a**  **16 time everybody has got available, right?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I guess**  **18 it is up to you folks. It just seems like a**  **19 lot of travel on folks, but --**  **20 MEMBER NOLL: My suggesting the**  **21 three days was so that we weren't doing back**  **22 to-back weeks.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **2 MR. EISNER: I think this is a**  **3 Thursday and a Friday. Do you want to move it**  **4 to the 4th and 5th to give you a little bit**  **5 more time?**  **6 MEMBER NOLL: I can't do the 5th.**  **7 Sorry.**  **8 MR. EISNER: All right. So, if we**  **9 don't do this meeting, do we want to do the**  **10 17th and 18th? That was a bad time. So, the**  **11 whole week is off. The week before that is**  **12 not good for me. That brings us to the 24th**  **13 and 25th, unless you want to do that meeting**  **14 in between.**  **15 Or do you want to do this as a**  **16 two-day meeting and make this a three-day**  **17 meeting?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: We are referring to**  **19 the September 3rd and 4th meeting, just for**  **20 the record.**  **21 So, the constraint here, it seems**  **22 to me, is that nobody wants to wait too long** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 between meetings because we don't want to be**  **2 stuck without having a solution to this**  **3 problem. But we don't want to wait until the**  **4 next meeting to say, "Gosh, we need a meeting**  **5 now," because we can't buy tickets.**  **6 So, we definitely seem to need to**  **7 have a meeting in early September because**  **8 people don't want to be caught up at the end.**  **9 So, while it seems awfully onerous, my**  **10 preference would be to try to schedule at**  **11 least a two-day meeting that September 3rd and**  **12 4th, just so we can give ourselves a little**  **13 room to maneuver here.**  **14 Okay, so let's go ahead and do**  **15 that. We will do a normal two-day meeting**  **16 September 3rd and 4th, understanding that Ray**  **17 has to leave at 5:00 p.m. on the 4th, right?**  **18 MEMBER ELLIS: I won't be here for**  **19 that.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: You won't be? You**  **21 can send an alternate. Okay. So, Ray will**  **22 send an alternate to that meeting. Okay.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, can those be both days 9:00 to**  **2 5:00 or do we need to end early on the second**  **3 day? Okay, so we will have those both be**  **4 9:00-to-5:00ers. Okay.**  **5 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay. Are we**  **6 looking at September 23 and 24 or is it 24 and**  **7 -- or is it 25 and -- it looks like it is**  **8 written up there 25 and 26.**  **9 MR. EISNER: I thought we were**  **10 looking at 24 and 25.**  **11 MEMBER LATTANZI: That's what I**  **12 thought.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Right. Amy has asked**  **14 for the big meeting to be moved to September**  **15 23rd, so we could, then, have everyone here**  **16 already and have the meeting the 24th and**  **17 25th.**  **18 So now, the question is, do we**  **19 want to create that into a three-day meeting,**  **20 thereby getting rid of the need to have a**  **21 meeting the following week in October, and**  **22 give us just a little more flexibility and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maybe push two weeks out for the following**  **2 week in October?**  **3 So, basically, folks coming in on**  **4 the 23rd for the meeting would be here for the**  **5 entire week, for us as well. So, you would be**  **6 here for your 23rd meeting, if it happens, and**  **7 then, 24, 25, 26 for us, and then, we can meet**  **8 again in mid-October.**  **9 Does that seem like a doable**  **10 thing?**  **11 MEMBER MEYERS: Can you repeat**  **12 that?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, what I was**  **14 pitching as an alternate would be to have**  **15 September 24th through 26th as a three-day**  **16 meeting, and there would be no October 1st**  **17 through-2nd meeting. So, that will give you**  **18 three days that week and eliminate the need to**  **19 travel here twice within a two-week period.**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: If we are going to**  **21 do that, September 24th, 25th, 26th, again,**  **22 I'm local; discount my vote. What about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 pulling up that 15th/16th meeting to the week**  **2 before?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: I think that would be**  **4 an idea that we can consider, yes.**  **5 MEMBER MEYERS: That is an**  **6 industry conflict.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: The 7th through the**  **8 8th? That week of the 7th of October?**  **9 MEMBER WHITE: Chuck White.**  **10 That is PHCC's convention. That**  **11 is our convention that whole week.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Which week is that,**  **13 Chuck?**  **14 MEMBER WHITE: Between the 8th --**  **15 the week of the 8th.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, the second**  **17 week of October would be out for at least a**  **18 number of people in the room.**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: So, maybe that**  **20 means I don't have to go to the convention.**  **21 Schedule it.**  **22 (Laughter.)** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: I know the 8th**  **2 would be a conflict for about half of the**  **3 room. Is it the 8th or the 9th?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. Well, can we**  **5 do this then: we seem to have some general**  **6 consensus on at least the first two meetings.**  **7 I don't want to put anyone in a bind in buying**  **8 tickets, but can we agree to these? Can we go**  **9 to the second meeting August 26th through**  **10 28th, and then, see how it goes to decide**  **11 about whether we need to have the meeting in**  **12 October or late September, where we are then?**  **13 Or is that too much of a crunch for you folks**  **14 that are buying tickets?**  **15 MEMBER PORTER: This is Steve**  **16 Porter.**  **17 Are you saying take it through**  **18 September 24th/25th, and then, decide the**  **19 later ones?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right. Right.**  **21 MEMBER PORTER: I am okay for**  **22 that.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, we will**  **2 have on the schedule, at least in The Federal**  **3 Register, it will a meeting August 26th**  **4 through 28th, that's three days; a meeting**  **5 September 3rd and 4th; that will be two days,**  **6 and a meeting September 24th and 25th, that**  **7 will be two days. And then, more meetings may**  **8 be scheduled as we decide as we move along in**  **9 the process that we need more meetings. Does**  **10 that work for everybody?**  **11 MR. EISNER: The only thing I**  **12 would point out is that scheduling a meeting**  **13 now doesn't do any harm. You pick the best**  **14 day and nobody puts anything on there.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **16 MR. EISNER: If you put it off for**  **17 even two weeks, somebody is going to have**  **18 something else come up.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **20 MR. EISNER: And they are no**  **21 longer available.**  **22 MEMBER PORTER: The dates that are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 out there, the 1st and 2nd and the 15th and**  **2 16th, block them on our calendars.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think Steve**  **4 is right. Everyone block off that first and**  **5 third week of October as tentatively needing**  **6 to be here. We won't advertise that to the**  **7 public. I don't want people buying tickets**  **8 who are not members of the Board, thinking**  **9 that, hey, there will be a meeting. But we**  **10 will have them blocked off, and we can discuss**  **11 at the end of next week or the two weeks from**  **12 now meeting, hey, do we think we need an**  **13 October meeting? If we do, then let's**  **14 schedule it and get it on the books. Does**  **15 that work for folks?**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: Can we arrange to**  **17 have this mailed out as invites this**  **18 afternoon, so we can get it without mistake**  **19 into our calendars?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Jeremiah is very**  **21 well-educated in the use of Outlook. And so,**  **22 he will make sure we all have a calendar** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 invite in our mailboxes for these various**  **2 things.**  **3 Okay. So now that we have**  **4 consensus on these dates, what is your feeling**  **5 here?**  **6 MR. EISNER: Yes. I mean, I think**  **7 everybody sees the dates now, and we know that**  **8 it is difficult for some people.**  **9 Anybody object?**  **10 (No response.)**  **11 The last two are going to be**  **12 listed as tentative, but they will be set up**  **13 so you can block your calendar with them.**  **14 No objections? Comment?**  **15 Go ahead.**  **16 MEMBER ROY: Aniruddh Roy with**  **17 Goodman.**  **18 Gary Clark is the primary rep on**  **19 this one. I think he is going to have an**  **20 issue with the September 3rd and 4th date, but**  **21 I can't confirm. He is on his way back from**  **22 his vacation today. So, he will be here** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 tomorrow, though.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Do you have an issue**  **3 with those dates?**  **4 MEMBER ROY: I don't have an issue**  **5 with those dates.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Then, we are in good**  **7 stead.**  **8 (Laughter.)**  **9 I mean, let's be honest.**  **10 Everybody has alternates for a reason. So, we**  **11 understand everyone is very busy. And so, we**  **12 want to make sure that you have the ability to**  **13 be here, but your alternate could be here.**  **14 We also have done the best we can**  **15 to make technology available to us, to make**  **16 sure if you can't be here, we can do it.**  **17 As Chuck notes, being here in**  **18 person makes a difference, and that is why we**  **19 encourage that. So, please, we know you have**  **20 constraints, but keep that in mind.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other**  **22 questions?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (No response.)**  **2 All right. We have got a**  **3 schedule.**  **4 Why don't we take a 15-minute**  **5 break? Come back at about 25 to 3:00.**  **6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **7 went off the record at 2:21 p.m. and went back**  **8 on the record at 2:36 p.m.)**  **9 MR. EISNER: Can everyone take**  **10 their seat?**  **11 Okay, the next thing on our list**  **12 -- well, let's give people a few more minutes,**  **13 I guess, another minute.**  **14 (Pause.)**  **15 All right. We are now up to**  **16 getting close to substance in the sense that**  **17 we want to put down what we think are our**  **18 objectives and the scope of what we are doing.**  **19 What I would like to see come out of this**  **20 session is I would like to see us decide on**  **21 what we want to discuss and in what order we**  **22 want to discuss it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I don't know if we want to call**  **2 them identifying the issues, list those issues**  **3 that we have to discuss and resolve in some**  **4 way, or if we want to think about how a**  **5 regulation would be written and you want to**  **6 set out each part of the regulation that you**  **7 think would be necessary or the discussion**  **8 that would help you decide whether a**  **9 regulation was necessary.**  **10 So, this is going to be a little**  **11 free-form, and we will try to keep putting**  **12 ideas up on the screen and start to focus on**  **13 what will help us best. But what you want to**  **14 think about is a document that we can, then,**  **15 use over the next several weeks to decide what**  **16 ought to be done to address the statutory**  **17 mandate.**  **18 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan**  **19 Doria with Ingersoll Rand.**  **20 I recommend that we consider the**  **21 issue of scoping first. I think we need to do**  **22 that before we get to objectives.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anybody**  **2 disagree with that? Do you want to talk about**  **3 scope first? Anybody disagree with talking**  **4 about scope first?**  **5 (No response.)**  **6 All right. Do you want to start**  **7 it off on scope?**  **8 MEMBER DORIA: Well, I can at**  **9 least offer something that I have wanted us to**  **10 discuss on the issue of scope. Obviously, I**  **11 understand that what is going to come out from**  **12 this is sort of an enforcement plan along with**  **13 or that will be a part of an actual rule from**  **14 the Department.**  **15 I think some in this room,**  **16 including Ingersoll Rand, are interested in**  **17 what role FTC will play in this and what, if**  **18 any, changes to specifically the FTC energy**  **19 value label can be considered by this group,**  **20 again, recognizing that DOE doesn't have the**  **21 power to change FTC and it has its own**  **22 rulemaking. But to what extent can we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consider FTC in our negotiations?**  **2 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **3 Rawald.**  **4 So, I can actually answer some of**  **5 those questions because I don't want to get**  **6 hung up on some of this stuff. So, the FTC is**  **7 represented by a gentleman named Hampton**  **8 Newsome, who is not available today or**  **9 tomorrow, so he is not here. He will,**  **10 hopefully, come to future meetings to at least**  **11 participate as a public member. He will not**  **12 be a member of the Board.**  **13 ASRAC is empowered only to deal**  **14 with DOE. So, whatever we do with ASRAC**  **15 cannot be part of what FTC does.**  **16 What Hampton has explained to me**  **17 is the label, as adopted in their final rule**  **18 issued last year, was designed based upon**  **19 Notice of Comment, but they have a final rule**  **20 out there. And so, we should keep it in mind.**  **21 And what we do here may affect**  **22 what they want to do with that label. So, we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 should consider what the label looks like now**  **2 and if what we are going to do is going to**  **3 change the effect of that label and how it**  **4 works.**  **5 He views the label to be only of**  **6 use in the fact that it affects how things are**  **7 installed. And so, it puts people on notice,**  **8 "Hey, listen, the installers are putting this**  **9 into your house," and so, you should be aware**  **10 of this thing is either illegal or illegally**  **11 put in your house. So, that is how he views**  **12 it in his discussion with me off the record on**  **13 this.**  **14 So, it may be that what we do as**  **15 an enforcement mechanism may require them to**  **16 change the label to meet those needs. And so,**  **17 we should be, I think, cognizant of that. And**  **18 I do want us to think about, okay, do we want**  **19 to make FTC aware, hey, in order to make our**  **20 enforcement scheme work, we recommend you**  **21 might consider these changes to the label.**  **22 But nothing we do here will be binding on** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 them.**  **2 But I definitely think we should**  **3 at least consider as part of our scope how**  **4 would what we are doing affect the label or**  **5 take into account what is on the label as**  **6 designed right now. And what I can do for**  **7 tomorrow is I can actually make copies of the**  **8 label available for everyone to kind of look**  **9 at, and we could discuss that. So, folks can**  **10 see what the label has on it and how that**  **11 impacts what we are talking about.**  **12 MEMBER LATTANZI: This is Matt**  **13 Lattanzi.**  **14 Can I suggest you make copies of**  **15 the label for the three different regions?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **17 Rawald.**  **18 So, I will do that. So, the label**  **19 actually -- you know, we are going a lot into**  **20 the FTC stuff, which I don't want to do too**  **21 much of. But it is one label for the region,**  **22 but it indicates what the different regions** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are and what the impact of it in the region**  **2 would be. But we can discuss that more**  **3 tomorrow.**  **4 But, for scoping purposes, what I**  **5 would say the scope is, it certainly should**  **6 include what we think of the label, but**  **7 understand that we can't control what is going**  **8 to be on the label because that is not part of**  **9 our bailiwick here.**  **10 MR. EISNER: John?**  **11 MR. HURST: Yes, while we are**  **12 talking about other federal agencies, I think**  **13 a lot of us would like clarification around**  **14 how dry ship equipment is going to be handled**  **15 under regional standards and maybe seek**  **16 further clarification how we will collectively**  **17 deal with that.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right. And, John,**  **19 just so I am clear, you are talking about R22**  **20 specifically?**  **21 MR. HURST: Yes. Right.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, that is an** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 issue that definitely the departments are**  **2 aware of. There is draft guidance that has**  **3 been out from that Department for a while now**  **4 on this very issue, and it is one the**  **5 Department is working on.**  **6 So, as far as however in dry**  **7 shipment we want to play with regional**  **8 standards, and how we can enforce it, I think**  **9 that is a worthy issue to throw onto the**  **10 scope. And certainly, we want to talk about**  **11 that.**  **12 How the Department is going to**  **13 govern overall the use of dry shipments and**  **14 R22s is maybe beyond the scope, except for how**  **15 it deals with the regional standards and how**  **16 that interplays with one another.**  **17 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **18 I just want to strongly support**  **19 that item.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?**  **21 Other comments? Other scope issues?**  **22 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, this is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Matt Lattanzi.**  **2 I don't know if it is a scope**  **3 topic, maybe it is, but I am throwing out an**  **4 idea as a possible starting point, or maybe it**  **5 is somewhere in the middle. But there are**  **6 some documents that are out there. The**  **7 Department of Energy has put forth a framework**  **8 document, and there have been comments to**  **9 that. ARI has submitted comments. Other**  **10 organizations have submitted comments. So, we**  **11 have those documents available to us to look**  **12 at as well.**  **13 MEMBER NOLL: I would also -- this**  **14 is Elizabeth with NRDC -- include in that, to**  **15 the extent that the settlement agreement that**  **16 was part of the furnace litigation impacts our**  **17 discussions here, that maybe they are**  **18 available or part of a discussion.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald.**  **20 So, I hear Matt and Elizabeth**  **21 talking about resources we should consider,**  **22 but not necessarily the scope of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 negotiations, but things that we should all**  **2 look at in getting informed on the issues.**  **3 And I think that those are all things that**  **4 should be made available.**  **5 The stuff that Matt referred to**  **6 specifically, the notice put forward by the**  **7 Department in 2011 and the number of comments**  **8 received by the Department, most of which were**  **9 dealing with furnace, but still many of them**  **10 are pertinent to what we are dealing with**  **11 today, are available on the docket for this**  **12 particular rulemaking.**  **13 And so, what we can have is, I can**  **14 have Jeremiah throw out a link to the docket,**  **15 so folks can look at those documents, because**  **16 there are a number of them that would be**  **17 salient and of interest to those folks today.**  **18 People have put forward different**  **19 ideas and different thoughts on what the best**  **20 enforcement idea would be. And I think**  **21 reviewing those documents will help make us**  **22 all more knowledgeable about what we can do** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 here to make this work.**  **2 So, that is a good point, but**  **3 somewhat aside from the actual scope of the**  **4 negotiations we are going to have here.**  **5 So, it sounds like we have at**  **6 least two ideas for things that should be**  **7 within the scope, right? The dry shipment**  **8 issue as it relates to regional standards and**  **9 how it would be enforced, as well as, also, at**  **10 least some sort of thoughts on how the label**  **11 would interplay with what we do here.**  **12 But are there any more thoughts**  **13 about what the scope would be? From the**  **14 Department's point of view, the scope really**  **15 needs to be, what is an effective enforcement**  **16 plan? I mean, what is going to work? And so,**  **17 that is how I am looking at it: what can work**  **18 from a national federal level in enforcing**  **19 these regional standards? So, anything from**  **20 the folks here that might help ferret out that**  **21 from a scope point of view.**  **22 Yes?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: I'm sorry.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Yes?**  **3 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **4 from Allied Air.**  **5 I think one of the key points of**  **6 maybe clarity is definitions, in the various**  **7 areas of the country and collectively coming**  **8 to some consensus around what constitutes a**  **9 system or a component.**  **10 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **11 Hourahan with ACCA.**  **12 Adding to that, and very much**  **13 similar to what David has suggested, under**  **14 definitions is we need to define what is an**  **15 illegal act under the regional standard as**  **16 well. So we clearly know which parties are at**  **17 fault by not doing X, Y, or Z.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: So, what, illegal act**  **19 or a legal act?**  **20 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Illegal act.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Illegal? Okay. What**  **22 would be a violation of the law?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Correct.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **3 MEMBER SHEPHERD: And this is Amy**  **4 Shepherd.**  **5 And I think just to clarify that a**  **6 little bit, too, it is like what is the**  **7 enforcement action that DOE will be bringing?**  **8 Who are the responsible parties? Because,**  **9 from that, you can inform what DOE is going to**  **10 need to bring that action.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: And, Amy, could I**  **12 suggest we use as our term any consequences of**  **13 the actions? Because I don't want to say that**  **14 enforcement always needs to be a stick, right?**  **15 Enforcement can be a carrot. So, I mean, we**  **16 could at least be amenable to talking about,**  **17 are there any things we could do to applaud**  **18 people for complying with the law? That would**  **19 also be a thought. So, consequences, both**  **20 positive and negative.**  **21 MEMBER SHEPHERD: No, I think that**  **22 is true. And I guess, related to that, I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 would say we also should consider whether**  **2 there are any safe harbors that could**  **3 encourage --**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **5 MEMBER SHEPHERD: -- activities or**  **6 other things that are done that would be**  **7 helpful to the Department and could kind of**  **8 facilitate towards enforcement without having**  **9 an action.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?**  **11 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Glenn Hourahan.**  **12 I am also thinking that we need to**  **13 talk about the enforcement of the grace period**  **14 during this installation. So, we have a**  **15 pretty lengthy grace period for the**  **16 manufacturers, through the distributor,**  **17 through the contractor installation. And that**  **18 puts some wrinkles in there as well. So, we**  **19 need to keep that issue in mind.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And, Glenn, this is**  **21 Doug Rawald.**  **22 I want to make sure I know what we** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are talking about here. So, are you referring**  **2 to the guidance issued by the Department after**  **3 the furnace litigations saying there will be**  **4 an 18-month grace period for the sell-through**  **5 of previously-manufactured units that don't**  **6 comply with regional standards, so they can be**  **7 installed in regions where they are not**  **8 allowed during that 18 months? Is that what**  **9 you are talking about?**  **10 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Correct.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. We could talk**  **12 about that, how that will work.**  **13 MEMBER HOURAHAN: There is a lot**  **14 of confusion.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. And so, one**  **16 thing that Glenn and Charlie from ACCA**  **17 approached me about before this meeting was**  **18 whether it would be useful from the folks here**  **19 in the room to have a presentation by the**  **20 Department about what exactly, a reminder of**  **21 sorts of what the standards are and what the**  **22 various things we have said about the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 standards and enforcement of them, up-to-date,**  **2 so everyone is kind of on the same page.**  **3 Because there are a couple of different things**  **4 we have said.**  **5 So, I could definitely put that**  **6 together and do that first thing tomorrow**  **7 morning, if that will be helpful to folks.**  **8 So, I think that might be a nice way to**  **9 spend --**  **10 MR. EISNER: Would other people**  **11 want this?**  **12 (Chorus of yeses from the group.)**  **13 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is David,**  **14 Allied.**  **15 I think that would be very helpful**  **16 because I think some of DOE's current**  **17 perspective, you know, their perspective on**  **18 some of these definitions will help guide what**  **19 we think may or may not work from an**  **20 enforcement perspective.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. And, Dave,**  **22 this is Doug.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, responding, well, I want to**  **2 make sure everyone understands this. I don't**  **3 want to be seen as pushing a position on**  **4 everyone else. For me, this is really a**  **5 brainstorming. There is a lot of, "Hey, come**  **6 to us with the ideas of what you think will**  **7 work," because you guys see the industry from**  **8 different levels and how it works day-to-day**  **9 and how this will work best. So, that will be**  **10 really important to me.**  **11 But I definitely can give you a**  **12 better idea of what works from our point of**  **13 view and what we use every day and what won't**  **14 work or what I think won't work from our**  **15 ability to implement, which I think is why I**  **16 am here.**  **17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes. And**  **18 again, this is Dave from Allied.**  **19 I guess I would regard that as a**  **20 starting point for the discussion.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **22 Charlie?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,**  **2 ACCA.**  **3 So, with that presentation you do**  **4 tomorrow, you may also want to talk about what**  **5 regs are there right now that you have for**  **6 enforcement purposes, because I think a lot of**  **7 us understand that right now the only entities**  **8 you can enforce against are manufacturers.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I don't**  **10 want that last sentence you said because I**  **11 think it is a little more complicated and**  **12 nuanced.**  **13 MR. McCRUDDEN: Right.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: As a lawyer, I am not**  **15 going to say that. So, I will push back on**  **16 that.**  **17 But I will certainly give a**  **18 thumbnail sketch of what our prohibited acts**  **19 are and how we enforce those things, so people**  **20 can understand kind of the tools we have at**  **21 our disposal and how they might be able to be**  **22 used in this context to help us meet these** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 regional standards.**  **2 MR. McCRUDDEN: Actually, to**  **3 follow up before John cuts in, to clarify**  **4 Glenn's point about the grace period, you**  **5 know, we will have 13 SEER condensing units**  **6 manufactured after January 1st, 2015 that**  **7 potentially are a liability or a potential**  **8 violation. And so, that is the clarification**  **9 there on the grace period, not so much on the**  **10 sell-through aspect of unsold inventory,**  **11 but --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: I will make that**  **13 answer clear.**  **14 MR. McCRUDDEN: -- yes, "new," new**  **15 inventory.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Understood.**  **17 MR. EISNER: John?**  **18 MR. HURST: John Hurst from**  **19 Lennox.**  **20 I think also it may be implied in**  **21 the definition what constitutes a system or a**  **22 component; also, a definition on what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 constitutes a manufacturer.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: And I hear that,**  **3 John, but we do have a definition for**  **4 manufacturer already. We don't have one**  **5 specific to central air-conditioner. We do**  **6 have one from EPCA that we do rely upon.**  **7 MR. HURST: Okay.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: What I think is of**  **9 note in the statute, what I think is**  **10 interesting -- I will put it out to the group**  **11 -- is there are a lot of terms used in the**  **12 statute that are not defined in EPCA. So, the**  **13 ones that are of note to me are contractor,**  **14 installer. Those terms are not defined in**  **15 EPCA, and I would put forward to the group I**  **16 would like to define those terms as part of**  **17 this. I think that would be helpful, to come**  **18 up with a definition of those terms.**  **19 MR. HURST: Agree, yes.**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary.**  **21 So, I think the discussion of a**  **22 grace period really only has relevance to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 equipment that is being manufactured or is in**  **2 the supply chain, maybe in distribution or in**  **3 the manufacturer's warehouse.**  **4 The issue here is that, come the**  **5 effective date, that non-compliant equipment**  **6 not be installed in those states that have the**  **7 higher standard. And to the extent that non**  **8 compliant equipment for those regions is going**  **9 to continue to be available, a grace period**  **10 for product is kind of irrelevant.**  **11 The point is, when I, a**  **12 contractor, go out and install a piece of**  **13 equipment in California, it needs to be**  **14 compliant. It doesn't matter whether the**  **15 manufacturer or the distributor has non**  **16 compliant equipment in their warehouse or not.**  **17 The piece that I buy and install needs to be**  **18 compliant.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so, this**  **20 is something I will talk a lot about tomorrow,**  **21 so folks can really understand. We do have**  **22 guidance on this very issue.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And so, what I think is**  **2 significant to scope is there is a different**  **3 treatment for an 18-month period of things**  **4 manufactured before January 1st and things**  **5 manufactured after January 1st. And there**  **6 will be a different treatment of things, you**  **7 know, come July 1st of 2016.**  **8 And so, I think what is important**  **9 for us is to decide, is there going to be an**  **10 evolving enforcement scheme that takes into**  **11 light this guidance that we will discuss**  **12 tomorrow that will work one way for those 18**  **13 months and, then, work slightly different when**  **14 it actually matters from a manufacturer point**  **15 of view?**  **16 And so, I think that is an**  **17 important kind of part of the scope, is: will**  **18 the enforcement program kind of evolve as this**  **19 grace period goes away that does exist under**  **20 our guidance right now? And I will talk about**  **21 it tomorrow, so I keep you up-to-speed here.**  **22 Okay? So, that is definitely of interest, is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 how we will do that.**  **2 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **3 And I am repeating in a different**  **4 form an earlier question I think from John.**  **5 Are you going to --**  **6 MR. RAWALD: From John Hurst from**  **7 Lennox?**  **8 MEMBER SACHS: John Hurst from**  **9 Lennox.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **11 MEMBER SACHS: Are you going to be**  **12 addressing this key question of what is a SEER**  **13 14 unit?**  **14 MR. RAWALD: So, what I hear you**  **15 saying is, in the cases of split-system**  **16 central air-conditionings where there is a**  **17 SEER difference by the indoor coil versus the**  **18 outdoor condensing unit --**  **19 MEMBER SACHS: For that matter, by**  **20 the air-handler fan, the so-called furnace**  **21 fan.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So, a blower-only** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 test versus a coil test?**  **2 MEMBER SACHS: I am asking only at**  **3 this point whether you are going to be**  **4 addressing the Department's view on this or if**  **5 this is --**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I am not**  **7 here to give guidance on things the Department**  **8 has not given guidance on. So, things the**  **9 Department has already said I will certainly**  **10 relate and explain in context. There are**  **11 other issues that the Department is currently**  **12 working on that I am not the one to speak**  **13 about those issues. I am not the one to give**  **14 guidance on it.**  **15 MEMBER SACHS: That is very**  **16 helpful. But, at the risk of being blunt --**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: -- I think that is**  **19 an area where we need, I personally feel that**  **20 is an area where we need to understand what**  **21 the Department is doing right now because it**  **22 is an absolutely first-order concern where the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 rubber hits the road, particularly when we **2 remember that something in the range of 70 to 3 80 percent of all installations of split**  **4 systems are replacements for existing units. 5 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum. Right. So,**  **6 I guess what I would flip this back to be, 7 because we are really focusing on what the**  **8 scope of the discussion and the negotiation 9 will be, is, do you want to include in the**  **10 scope an "ask" to DOE to explain better 11 certain issues that we think are relevant, at**  **12 least tangentially, to the ability to enforce 13 these regulations?**  **14 And if we are, let's define those 15 as part of the scope of the negotiations.**  **16 Let's say, you know, we want to make part of 17 the scope of these negotiations laying out**  **18 those things we need clarity from DOE on in 19 how they are doing their business.**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: Well, with all due 21 respect --**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: -- if that is not**  **2 done in parallel with this process, we ain't**  **3 never going to make a deadline.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: No, and I do hear**  **5 what you are saying.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: So, I don't know if**  **7 anyone else in the room agrees with me. I**  **8 haven't discussed this with others. But I**  **9 think we have to early in our conversations**  **10 confront this issue.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Neil has**  **12 put forward the plan of, hey, we provide what**  **13 needs to be talked about. And if you think**  **14 that the very first thing out of the gate**  **15 needs to be what do we need DOE to clarify,**  **16 then let's make that the first issue and let's**  **17 engage on that tomorrow. Let's say, what are**  **18 those things that DOE needs to make clear**  **19 about what they are doing currently that will,**  **20 then, help us understand the scope of the**  **21 playing field that we are talking about for**  **22 enforcement of these regulations?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: I am actually**  **2 thinking a little bit more broadly --**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **4 MEMBER SACHS: -- which relates to**  **5 the question of to what extent this is our**  **6 responsibility. We have some responsibility**  **7 and interest in influencing what DOE is trying**  **8 to come up with in these areas.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Explain what you mean**  **11 by that. As opposed to? DOE has got a**  **12 statute. What would you do to implement that**  **13 statute?**  **14 MEMBER SACHS: Neil, you have**  **15 never heard me say this, but I don't know.**  **16 The statute governs the central air**  **17 conditioner, and unlike so many other**  **18 products, the central air-conditioner is a**  **19 system in which the rated performance depends**  **20 on the interaction of three separate**  **21 subcomponents which are not perfectly**  **22 separated or integrated in the regulations and** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the law.**  **2 So that I can imagine a number of**  **3 different outcomes, and I am sure the**  **4 manufacturers have thought enormously about**  **5 it. And the different outcomes have vastly**  **6 different implications for the contractors and**  **7 for DOE and enforcement, and for me in energy**  **8 savings nationally.**  **9 I can take the same outdoor**  **10 condensing unit, and depending on the inside**  **11 unit that I match with that, or whether I use**  **12 the one that is already there when I have**  **13 blown out the condensing unit, I can get a**  **14 rather different SEER value.**  **15 If I use the existing furnace fan,**  **16 the existing furnace with its fan -- and it is**  **17 one that is 90 percent of the market today --**  **18 I will get a relatively-low SEER value. If I**  **19 claim that I am actually matching this to one**  **20 with an advanced motor, I am claiming that the**  **21 SEER might be a point or a point-and-a-half**  **22 higher.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, these are issues that reach**  **2 deeply into the installation process. And**  **3 until I have a better understanding of what we**  **4 mean by a central air-conditioner rated at**  **5 SEER 13 or at SEER 14, I don't know how to**  **6 think about how to do enforcement. But I may**  **7 just be too naive or --**  **8 MR. EISNER: Does everybody else**  **9 feel the same way?**  **10 MR. HURST: Yes. John Hurst with**  **11 Lennox.**  **12 I would agree with him.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Whoa. Obviously, a**  **14 good question.**  **15 (Laughter.)**  **16 MR. HURST: Yes.**  **17 MR. EISNER: I'll leave now.**  **18 (Laughter.)**  **19 Why don't we start from right to**  **20 left?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: So, this is Doug.**  **22 So, as Harvey has rightly** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 acknowledged, some of these things, some of**  **2 these issues are ones that are decided outside**  **3 the scope of this negotiation. I mean, there**  **4 are things that will be decided by the**  **5 Department or are currently being worked on by**  **6 the Department. But they have implications**  **7 for how enforcement would be done.**  **8 And so, what I think we need to do**  **9 is think about how, if varying scenarios took**  **10 place, we would best enforce, just so we can**  **11 kind of keep our eye and maybe influence the**  **12 air policymakers going the other way.**  **13 That being said, I am obviously**  **14 handicapped here. We don't have a decision on**  **15 those things. And so, I don't have guidance**  **16 to point to, to give to you guys and say,**  **17 "This is where we are."**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: All right. I am**  **19 going to get out ahead of myself, and it is**  **20 going to sound disrespectful now. This is**  **21 Harvey.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: There is an**  **2 infinite number of permutations that we could**  **3 chase down an infinite number of rabbit holes.**  **4 If we do not speak with the Department and**  **5 come to understand where they are going, where**  **6 we might have influence, where we might not,**  **7 this series will not converge, as the**  **8 mathematicians would say. We will not be able**  **9 to reach a consensus.**  **10 And my belief -- now I think there**  **11 are a few other people who wanted to comment**  **12 on this question of what is a SEER 14 or**  **13 something -- but I don't think we can allow a**  **14 separate silo of DOE technical consideration**  **15 and our enforcement without understanding each**  **16 other about what we mean by the terms.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: No, I hear what you**  **18 are saying, and I do, and I will take that**  **19 back to the appropriate people. All I can say**  **20 is I am sorry that I am coming to you with one**  **21 arm tied behind my back.**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: Absolutely** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understood. All we are asking is that you**  **2 carry the message.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **4 MR. HURST: With the other arm.**  **5 (Laughter.)**  **6 This is John Hurst with Lennox.**  **7 I think I feel your pain.**  **8 I think, Harvey, if I could boil**  **9 down what you said, you are saying that it is**  **10 hard to develop an enforcement scheme for**  **11 something that you don't know what you are**  **12 trying to enforce. And so, there is**  **13 confusion. There is an ability to cheat.**  **14 We can be technically in alignment**  **15 with the regulation, but I don't want to be**  **16 technically compliant; I want to be compliant.**  **17 And to get there, I think there needs to be a**  **18 much higher level of clarity. And then, we**  **19 can develop an enforcement regime around what**  **20 it is we are trying to enforce.**  **21 But, right now, I just think there**  **22 are too many opportunities to interpret** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 different ways. And I think we want clarity**  **2 as to what we are actually doing. And then,**  **3 it becomes easier to enforce because there's**  **4 clarity around what it is you are trying to**  **5 enforce, if that makes any sense.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **7 And if I might respond, to those**  **8 of us in the room who are efficiency**  **9 advocates, the lost savings represented by the**  **10 massive sales of dry-shipped R22 units**  **11 represent a massive regulatory failure. They**  **12 represent a massive regulatory failure to many**  **13 of the manufacturers.**  **14 It was not predominantly a DOE**  **15 issue, but it certainly, I think, makes all of**  **16 us very, very concerned that we reach the kind**  **17 of clarity that John Hurst is referring to.**  **18 I personally, and I think for my organization,**  **19 would state that I have a hard time believing**  **20 that we can both do that and be timely without**  **21 having interaction with the Department to know**  **22 what we are developing enforcement for.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: I do hear that. So,**  **2 what I would suggest is that we tee-up as an**  **3 initial issue as part of the scope of the**  **4 negotiations what things do we need to know in**  **5 order to develop an effective enforcement**  **6 plan, because that is the ultimate goal.**  **7 And so, if we can lay out, "Hey,**  **8 DOE, we need to know these five things," "And**  **9 if I don't know them, I can't do what you have**  **10 asked me to do, ASRAC," then that is going to**  **11 be a stopping point. And so, I think that**  **12 should be the first hurdle we cross.**  **13 So, if folks could caucus tonight**  **14 and come up with their list and come back**  **15 tomorrow and say, "Doug, boy, I wish we were**  **16 smarter on these things, and here are the five**  **17 things I need you to go back, get answers to**  **18 before our meeting on August 27th, 28th,**  **19 29th," the dates we set, I will do that. So,**  **20 let's make that our first order of business.**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: You just heard me**  **22 on it.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: I know. Right.**  **2 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **3 with Allied.**  **4 I agree with Harvey and with John.**  **5 We really need clarity around these**  **6 definitions of what constitutes minimum**  **7 national standard and what meets minimum**  **8 regional standard products.**  **9 We have a very, or could have an**  **10 overlap where it is very unclear whether a**  **11 product is compliant or not. And the**  **12 enforcement strategy around that could be**  **13 relatively simple or very complex, depending**  **14 on the outcome of that.**  **15 MR. EISNER: Let me make sure I**  **16 understand where we are going here. If we**  **17 need to have more clarity, more definitions,**  **18 and we agree on that need and we agree on the**  **19 definitions, is it going to tie the hands of**  **20 other decisionmakers in DOE? Are they going**  **21 to say, "Wait, we can't live with that**  **22 definition."?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: There are certain**  **2 things that we don't have the authority to**  **3 define here. We just can't. But there are**  **4 things that we could say. We can't go forward**  **5 without knowing how DOE considers that.**  **6 And I think that is the "ask" that**  **7 I am putting out to the group, is: do you**  **8 want to make as part of your scope, "Hey, DOE,**  **9 we need clarity on this in order to tell you**  **10 what to do next."?**  **11 MR. EISNER: And that is something**  **12 that has got to be done right away for us to**  **13 meet our deadline.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: I think so.**  **15 MR. EISNER: And what is the**  **16 possibility of getting that kind of reaction**  **17 by the time we need it?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: You know, I can only**  **19 offer the I will do my best for the behalf of**  **20 the group to get an answer to these questions.**  **21 But these are issues that everyone knows**  **22 about. I mean, I would say everyone in the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 room does, and DOE is well aware of them. And**  **2 I know there have been discussions about these**  **3 issues. But, until something is out there, my**  **4 hands are tied, right? So, that is what I am**  **5 saying. So, I don't know.**  **6 MR. EISNER: I mean, let me put it**  **7 bluntly, who are those people who need to be**  **8 invited to the meeting to explain where they**  **9 are and how they will work with this process?**  **10 I don't know enough about this to know if that**  **11 is a fair question or not.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I just don't**  **13 know, because of the way the deliberative**  **14 process works in rulemaking and guidance,**  **15 whether they can tell you anything until such**  **16 point as things are allowed to be released,**  **17 right? So, the government is a big place**  **18 before things come out.**  **19 MR. EISNER: But you have a**  **20 deadline.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Right. I understand**  **22 that. And so, I will reflect that back to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 those people this evening when I talk to them.**  **2 MEMBER SACHS: Perhaps others who**  **3 were there last summer can refresh my memory**  **4 and help, but I seem to recall that there was**  **5 an awful lot of defining of terms -- for**  **6 example, basic model -- in the negotiated**  **7 rulemaking last summer.**  **8 And what I am hearing from you is**  **9 perhaps that DOE is at a different point in**  **10 the cycle and can't have these discussions.**  **11 I mean, that would be very strange.**  **12 Ashley just came in.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Yes. Right. So,**  **14 Ashley came in, and she is one of the people**  **15 that are involved from a technical point of**  **16 view on these things.**  **17 So, I want to be clear. This**  **18 group has mandate that is related to the**  **19 enforcement of regional standards. Some of**  **20 what you are asking about goes to a broader**  **21 picture beyond these regional standards issue.**  **22 And they involve things that are beyond what** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I believe to be the mandate of this group.**  **2 And so, those things are being**  **3 worked on outside this group. But I**  **4 understand they will be relevant to this**  **5 group. And so, whereas defining a basic model**  **6 was necessary for the Commercial Certification**  **7 Working Group because you were trying to**  **8 define how you would certify basic model, and**  **9 it was very endemic to that, what we are**  **10 talking about here is somewhat outside of**  **11 that.**  **12 So, I am not trying to call**  **13 discussion. I am not trying to say you can't**  **14 do certain things. I am just trying to say**  **15 there are some things that -- I mean, I want**  **16 to say I will bring back all these ideas to**  **17 the people I talk to, but there will be some**  **18 things that will be off of the scope of this**  **19 negotiation. I mean, dictating the policy on**  **20 R22 drop shipments at large, you know, that is**  **21 going to be a little more beyond the scope.**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **2 MEMBER SACHS: To me, the**  **3 definition of what is allowed to be considered**  **4 a SEER 14 system is absolutely a key to**  **5 developing and implementing an enforcement**  **6 mechanism.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Understood.**  **8 MEMBER PORTER: This is Steve**  **9 Porter from HARDI.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes?**  **11 MEMBER PORTER: You know, we have**  **12 only got a couple of hours left in the day.**  **13 Do you need that time to be ready for tomorrow**  **14 to answer that question, to get those people**  **15 rounded up in the building, I mean?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: It sounds like you**  **17 are trying to do me a favor.**  **18 (Laughter.)**  **19 I mean, I do have a wife and**  **20 child. You know, I have a son waiting at day**  **21 care for me at some point.**  **22 So, I am going to do what I need** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to get done. So, I really don't want to leave**  **2 here today until we decide what the scope of**  **3 this is going to be, right?**  **4 So, what I heard people saying is**  **5 you want to include within the scope an**  **6 understanding on where the Department is going**  **7 on certain issues and to at least be able to**  **8 say to the Department, "Hey, if we can't get**  **9 answers to these things, we can't go forward."**  **10 So, that seems to be at least a threshold**  **11 question that needs to be resolved. So, I**  **12 need to talk to folks about that. That seems**  **13 to be an important thing.**  **14 What is helpful to me is for folks**  **15 to go back to their hotels or their offices**  **16 tonight and come back tomorrow with: here are**  **17 the five or six or ten or twenty or thirty**  **18 things I need to know before I can ever give**  **19 you an opinion on what would be effective**  **20 enforcement.**  **21 Now I think that there are some**  **22 thumbnail sketch things that we could do,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 regardless of the issue. I think that we can**  **2 lay out the definition of the parties. We**  **3 could talk about roles and responsibilities,**  **4 at least to some extent, without any idea**  **5 about what R22, how it affects it, or what**  **6 SEER 14 really is. I think we can do some**  **7 thumbnail things.**  **8 But those big issues, let's go**  **9 those out there and get those on the plate, so**  **10 I can push them on to people to work on while**  **11 we are talking about the other issues that we**  **12 can talk about without those answers. That is**  **13 what I am proposing, I guess.**  **14 I see a lot of blank looks. Does**  **15 everyone understand where I am coming from**  **16 here? Okay. Okay.**  **17 Well, Karen, please ask. Ask**  **18 away. I mean, tell me what your thoughts are**  **19 here.**  **20 MEMBER MEYERS: Well, I mean, you**  **21 can't develop an enforcement plan against an**  **22 efficiency rating unless you fully understand** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what the Department considers the efficiency**  **2 of the unit. So, I mean, the enforcement plan**  **3 is going to be different. So, we define how**  **4 you rate a product in one section, but,**  **5 apparently, it is not defined in another**  **6 section. And so, these things are**  **7 handicapping us.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **9 MEMBER MEYERS: I mean, I can't**  **10 come up with an enforcement plan on how to**  **11 enforce a 14 SEER in the South or I can't give**  **12 you any ideas on how to do that if I don't**  **13 understand what you consider to be a 14 SEER.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **15 MEMBER MEYERS: So, that is really**  **16 handicapping us. So, we always had this way**  **17 we thought we understood what it was, and it**  **18 is what we used to write our products, but**  **19 now, apparently, a lot of that is up in**  **20 question.**  **21 So, we need to understand the**  **22 Department's position on that, so that we can** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 move forward. I mean, if we don't have**  **2 clarity on this, then we are going to go down**  **3 this path. And then, if this clarity or**  **4 guidance comes out that says it is something**  **5 completely different, then it could be a**  **6 horrible outcome for this industry.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **8 MEMBER MEYERS: And I don't think**  **9 the purpose is to shut down the air**  **10 conditioning business in the United States,**  **11 which this could -- I mean, you think I'm**  **12 crazy, but we almost did that with the**  **13 commercial air-conditioning industry until we**  **14 got a lot of things clarified in the last**  **15 rule. So, it is that important. I don't know**  **16 how to -- it is that critical to making this**  **17 a success.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: No, I'm getting that.**  **19 I'm getting that from you folks, that this is**  **20 really important, and I agree that is**  **21 important.**  **22 And what I am telling you is I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think that, while we can't game out the entire**  **2 scenario of how to effectively enforce these**  **3 without answering threshold questions, there**  **4 are at least some big-picture things that we**  **5 can discuss and solve while I am getting**  **6 answers to these other issues. I don't want**  **7 this to hold up what we are doing.**  **8 If you are telling me that we**  **9 cannot effectively negotiate until we have**  **10 clarity on these issues, I would counter that**  **11 and say that is pessimism. I think that we**  **12 can do some things while we are still working**  **13 on this. I am confident that we can.**  **14 Because I think that we can**  **15 discuss roles. We can discuss**  **16 responsibilities. We can discuss differing**  **17 aspects of this. We can even discuss, how**  **18 would you handle it if it was blower tested**  **19 versus tested with a furnace. All these**  **20 things we can discuss, at least in the**  **21 abstract, to the point of, then, getting more**  **22 guidance when we get it from the Department.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, I think there are some things**  **2 we can actually discuss here, and I don't want**  **3 to forestall everything while we are getting**  **4 an answer to the question that we don't have**  **5 at the moment.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **7 Will you bring us that list?**  **8 MR. RAWALD: The list of what?**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: Things we can**  **10 discuss.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: I will, certainly. I**  **12 mean, and it is a list of three other things**  **13 I promised to do tonight. How about that?**  **14 MR. EISNER: What if the answer**  **15 you get back is "We will give you these**  **16 answers, but it will take us about six**  **17 weeks."?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **19 MR. EISNER: That's impossible --**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **21 MR. EISNER: -- for this group to,**  **22 then, implement by the deadline they have.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **2 MR. EISNER: And six weeks isn't**  **3 that long.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think the**  **5 Department understands that. And I think they**  **6 understand the position on that right now**  **7 because of the fact that we don't have an**  **8 answer for you today.**  **9 MEMBER PORTER: Would you like to**  **10 work on 2020 now, then, and just forget**  **11 everything until then?**  **12 (Laughter.)**  **13 MR. RAWALD: I do like you.**  **14 (Laughter.)**  **15 There is no reason for Jon Melchi**  **16 to be here, alternate. Can you please keep on**  **17 coming?**  **18 (Laughter.)**  **19 So, we have, along with the scope**  **20 ideas -- and anything else in scope that we**  **21 could throw in here? You know, besides the**  **22 kitchen sink, is there anything else?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie**  **2 with ACCA.**  **3 You do actually regulate kitchen**  **4 sinks, don't you?**  **5 (Laughter.)**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Not the basin, but**  **7 the faucet.**  **8 MR. McCRUDDEN: But the faucet,**  **9 exactly.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **11 MR. McCRUDDEN: One question I had**  **12 is -- sorry, I'm trying to find it --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: You come prepared.**  **14 MR. McCRUDDEN: I've got three**  **15 pages here.**  **16 Who will be the enforcing agent?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: So, do you want that**  **18 to be part of the scope, who will be the**  **19 enforcing agent?**  **20 MR. McCRUDDEN: I think so.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: I think that is a**  **22 good question. Yes, let's put that in there.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Okay. Who and how? And as we discussed, what**  **2 tools would that enforcing agent have at their**  **3 disposal? I think those are all valid things**  **4 that should be within the scope.**  **5 Anything else?**  **6 MEMBER SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **7 Shepherd from AHRI.**  **8 I think that one thing that**  **9 dovetails with that is there are specific**  **10 provisions in this regional section about**  **11 state enforcement. And so, I think that is a**  **12 question that we need to look at in terms of**  **13 what exactly that means, and is that something**  **14 separate than the civil cases or the things**  **15 that can be brought with notice to the**  **16 Department? Or how is that going to correlate**  **17 and relate to the Department's enforcement**  **18 plan?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Sure. I mean, if you**  **20 folks look at the comments, when we send you**  **21 that link to the docket tonight, one of the**  **22 comments is from an organization that is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really pushing for the building codes to play**  **2 a role in this. And I think that should be**  **3 part of the scope, too. How can we take**  **4 advantage of the various building codes or**  **5 licensing, and those kinds of things out**  **6 there? And is there anything from a federal**  **7 level we can do to take advantage of that as**  **8 well? And I would like to hear from folks**  **9 about that.**  **10 MEMBER SHEPHERD: But I am**  **11 specifically talking about the provisions that**  **12 let states put the regional standards in them.**  **13 Okay.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Right. I understand**  **15 what you are saying.**  **16 MEMBER GIBBONS: This is John from**  **17 Carrier.**  **18 The penalties, is that something**  **19 that should be continued or added to the**  **20 scope?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I think**  **22 Amy and I discussed consequences before. I** 

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### 1 look at sort of penalties to be part of the **2 consequences, but definitely. I definitely 3 think that is an important thing.**  **4 I saw an article today. I don't 5 know if a lot of you are familiar with Tony**  **6 Stewart running over this young gentleman on 7 the racetrack. But they are talking about**  **8 changing the rules in NASCAR racing. And the 9 folks from NASCAR said, "I don't know of any**  **10 law or rule that will be followed without an 11 enforcement." So, I think that is selling a**  **12 point for us, right? So, we have to have 13 something out there to hold over those heads,**  **14 it seems like, in order to have a rule. 15 So, okay, anything else in the**  **16 scope category? 17 MEMBER DORIA: Jordan Doria with**  **18 Ingersoll Rand. 19 I think, I mean, most of the**  **20 elements are up there, but maybe just sort of 21 a summary of what the settlement included**  **22 again, some of the elements that are out**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 there. I am specifically thinking about,**  **2 what, if anything, the Department sort of**  **3 stipulated or expressed a sentiment about with**  **4 regard to the role of different parties?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, you want me, as a**  **6 part of just in my discussion to you, to**  **7 relate to you what was settled, too? Because**  **8 that wouldn't really be a scope. Like we**  **9 wouldn't agree to what was settled to in the**  **10 furnace settlement. Is that what you are**  **11 talking about or --**  **12 MEMBER DORIA: Yes. Correct.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I can**  **14 talk to you about that.**  **15 MEMBER DORIA: Yes.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Or I can have someone**  **17 come in and talk about it who is more**  **18 knowledgeable.**  **19 But, as far as we wouldn't be**  **20 negotiating that, that wouldn't be part of the**  **21 scope, but it would be part of my educational**  **22 piece here tomorrow. That's fine.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER DORIA: Thank you.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Are there any other**  **4 things you would want to hear about tomorrow**  **5 in terms of what you would be looking at? We**  **6 talked about, I think, FOIA requirements**  **7 earlier. Are there any other general legal**  **8 requirements? Any other DOE requirements you**  **9 would like to have covered?**  **10 MEMBER NOLL: Well, one thing that**  **11 I have been thinking about -- and I guess this**  **12 is more along the lines of just throwing**  **13 things on the table and saying what might**  **14 potentially work -- but like, legally, what is**  **15 the relevance or opportunity with respect to**  **16 warranties? Is there anything that can be**  **17 done there? Although, legally, what can the**  **18 Department do, require manufacturers to do or**  **19 not do specifically? Like shipping to certain**  **20 areas, is that on the table or is that**  **21 something that legally they can't require**  **22 manufacturers to do?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, some of those kinds of -- like**  **2 what are the bounds with respect to what you**  **3 guys can require or not require certain**  **4 entities to do? Maybe that falls under**  **5 responsible parties; I don't know.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: Another thing that**  **8 I think we should talk about during this**  **9 process is how do internet sales apply. I**  **10 mean, maybe it will just become inherent in**  **11 how we do that, but that is not necessarily a**  **12 geographic boundary as far as the sales**  **13 function is concerned. So, I think it is**  **14 something that needs to be considered as we**  **15 are going through the discussion.**  **16 MR. EISNER: Is that something**  **17 that affects FTC?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Well, I think Karen's**  **19 question goes to who is responsible for**  **20 internet sales? Like what would be the**  **21 enforcement mechanism for sales over the**  **22 internet as opposed to a contractor that walks** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in your house and sells a unit?**  **2 And I think that has evolved a lot**  **3 from when we started to what is going on**  **4 today. And I don't have a sense of it, and I**  **5 would like to hear from industry about how**  **6 prevalent that is and what market share that**  **7 is. And are they properly represented here or**  **8 should we have something else come on to this**  **9 forum and talk about that? I mean, I don't**  **10 know if they are appropriately represented or**  **11 not. So, yes, I think it is within scope,**  **12 certainly.**  **13 MEMBER SACHS: Doug, I was**  **14 intrigued when you followed up the who will**  **15 enforce.**  **16 This is Harvey.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: Who will enforce**  **19 with what tools?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: Again, it evoked a**  **22 resonance from last year. This will, I think,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 lead us into discussion of data availability**  **2 and database construction and access as being**  **3 probably a necessary tool for any kind of**  **4 enforcement.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, I think that will**  **6 be debatable. I think that people have**  **7 different views on that. But I think that is**  **8 a debate we should have. I think it is part**  **9 of the scope of this, as to what tools we will**  **10 bring into play.**  **11 I know that you pushed or had an**  **12 idea about a large database collection in 2011**  **13 in the public meeting. And so, I would like**  **14 to hear about that, if that is still something**  **15 you think about.**  **16 And there are other folks who had**  **17 different reactions to that. So, I think that**  **18 is within scope, though. That is definitely**  **19 right there, is what tools could we be**  **20 applying in order to properly enforce this.**  **21 MR. EISNER: Are you talking about**  **22 DOE databases? Or are you talking about** 

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### 1 industry databases, whether manufacturer or **2 installer or in between? 3 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey**  **4 responding to Neil. And I am going to remain 5 agnostic on that question.**  **6 (Laughter.) 7 I think that whoever is doing the**  **8 enforcement needs, at minimum, to understand 9 the performance of the evaporator, the**  **10 performance of the condensing unit, and what 11 kind of motor is in the fan. And without**  **12 that, it is hard for me to conceive of how I 13 can judge minimum compliance, although I can**  **14 probably say, "Yes, this thing is way beyond 15 minimum." Okay? I mean, just looking at it,**  **16 I could probably come close to that. 17 So, I want to be agnostic.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Do you need any 19 briefings from anybody other than DOE to** **20 gather the information you need to become un 21 agnostic?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Frankly -- this is**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Doug Rawald -- it sounds to me like that is**  **2 something that the industry, and when we talk**  **3 about things, we can all kind of opine about**  **4 what we are capable of. And that might help**  **5 Harvey shape his analysis. I think so.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: Yes. No, I --**  **7 MR. RAWALD: It is something our**  **8 discussions will --**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: I think this is**  **10 something that will flow naturally --**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **12 MEMBER SACHS: -- at the right**  **13 point in the -- I don't think this is a priori**  **14 as much as these quasi-religious definitions**  **15 of what the pieces are of a compliant unit.**  **16 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter from**  **17 HARDI.**  **18 The FTC, did you say they are**  **19 going to attend or they are not going to**  **20 attend?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: So, when I talked to**  **22 Hampton Newsome from the FTC, he said he can't** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 come today or tomorrow, but that future**  **2 meetings he would like to come to and sit in**  **3 on. And as a member of the public, he may**  **4 offer an opinion. He won't be sitting at the**  **5 table because he is not a member of the group.**  **6 But we can possibly poll him and certainly**  **7 what they are doing will affect what we are**  **8 doing.**  **9 MEMBER PORTER: I guess I need a**  **10 little better understanding, too, how they**  **11 interplay.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **13 MEMBER PORTER: You know, just how**  **14 they can affect the labeling and even our**  **15 decision here, whether it gets all trumped**  **16 later down the line or --**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, let's be**  **18 clear. As I said before in response to**  **19 Jordan's question, we can't the FTC to do any**  **20 sort of rulemaking. What Hampton has told to**  **21 me is that they came up with a labeling final**  **22 rule. So, they have a rule in place for the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 label, in recognition of the rules we put into**  **2 place, the regional standards, and with an**  **3 idea they will work in a certain way.**  **4 And if our enforcement scheme**  **5 comes out to where those labels are not going**  **6 to help, that they will listen to what that**  **7 is, and at least listen to ideas to change the**  **8 label to work with the enforcement scheme that**  **9 we had developed.**  **10 But we may want to hear from him**  **11 about that. What might be easiest, though, is**  **12 for folks to go back and to look at the label**  **13 and to read the rule regarding the label. And**  **14 we can, of course, make that available. I can**  **15 have that sent around by Jeremiah. As I said,**  **16 I could pass out copies of labels for folks to**  **17 have and bring back, I think, about here's**  **18 what the label is and how does that play.**  **19 Because we know the label is**  **20 decided. So, either we can go with what we**  **21 know, which is the label as is, and then, use**  **22 that to help inform our own enforcement** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 process. Or we could say, well, what is the**  **2 development and enforcement process, and then,**  **3 hope FTC will change our label to meet our**  **4 needs, which they may or may not.**  **5 MEMBER PORTER: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: So, I think it is**  **7 more practical to do the former.**  **8 MEMBER PORTER: And then,**  **9 secondly, so we can bring more material back**  **10 from this evening and add to this list,**  **11 correct? And then, you would like some**  **12 prioritization to the list as well, so we can**  **13 kind of lock down what we can do first,**  **14 second, third, fourth, fifth?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Right. Because, I**  **16 mean, for the group to be productive, we have**  **17 to say, okay, what we are going to address and**  **18 in what order.**  **19 MEMBER PORTER: Right.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So, it would be**  **21 helpful if we left here tonight with at least**  **22 an idea of what we are going to talk about** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 tomorrow.**  **2 MEMBER PORTER: Right. I think**  **3 No. 1 was like -- well, I won't speak for**  **4 everybody -- but No. 1 in my mind is the**  **5 covering of the updating again of the rules.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, my giving**  **7 you an educational piece --**  **8 MEMBER PORTER: Right.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: -- on where we are**  **10 and where we have been.**  **11 And No. 2 seems to be dealing with**  **12 what "asks" do we need from DOE in order to be**  **13 able to really answer things, so DOE could be**  **14 working on those things.**  **15 MEMBER PORTER: Right. Right.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **17 MEMBER PORTER: And then, I think,**  **18 from that, everybody brings their list back,**  **19 and what follows thereafter that we plug in**  **20 for tomorrow and move forward.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, I hear you**  **22 saying that you think we are pretty much ready** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to cut for the night.**  **2 MEMBER PORTER: No. No, I am not**  **3 saying that because I am sure Harvey has more**  **4 to say.**  **5 (Laughter.)**  **6 That is just kind of where I was**  **7 at, unless people have more.**  **8 MR. EISNER: Glenn?**  **9 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Glenn Hourahan.**  **10 You know, we talk about**  **11 enforcement. We are talking about enforcement**  **12 of a rule that has already been passed. And**  **13 so, we talk about what is the definition of**  **14 that passed rule and how it may apply to the**  **15 enforcement.**  **16 And as I look at these lists of**  **17 issues go up, and they are all good issues and**  **18 they all have an impact on enforcement, it**  **19 makes me very apprehensive about what the**  **20 resulting enforcement vehicle may look like or**  **21 mechanisms might look like.**  **22 Because what we need in the field** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is we need something that is implementable**  **2 from the contractor's perspective, from the**  **3 distributor's perspective, from the OEM's**  **4 perspective.**  **5 Also, we talked about, not**  **6 represented here, but we talked about having**  **7 code enforcement.**  **8 So, we are talking about we have**  **9 to have something that is very simple, very**  **10 easy to enforce in the field. And as I think**  **11 about that and I look at these complicating**  **12 issues up there, I am hoping, Doug, that**  **13 tomorrow -- I know you can't give us the exact**  **14 answer -- but perhaps you can outline or give**  **15 us some kind of a wedge, an indication of what**  **16 would DOE consider a successful level of**  **17 enforcement. You know, if X number of**  **18 installations were done right or done to the**  **19 law, and only Y skirted through, or something**  **20 like that.**  **21 Because I could see there is going**  **22 to be a lot of challenges as we move forward** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 of rolling out something we have never had in **2 our industry before. 3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what you**  **4 are asking is a complicated question, but I 5 think the simple answer is, because I am the**  **6 Department of Energy and I have been charged 7 with EPCA, in order to enforce EPCA, it is**  **8 that I want 100 percent compliance with EPCA 9 because that is what I am legally required to**  **10 say I want. 11 From a practical point of view,**  **12 that answer may not be attainable. But I 13 don't think the Department would be prepared**  **14 to give an answer to that. And I can 15 certainly consult with folks and see if they**  **16 want to kind of give a ball-park on that. 17 But you can understand why we**  **18 wouldn't be willing to necessarily give a 19 less-than-100-percent answer.**  **20 MEMBER HOURAHAN: I am just 21 asking.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: I understand.**

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Laughter.)**  **2 MR. MELCHI: This is John Melchi**  **3 with HARDI.**  **4 Would it be appropriate to have a**  **5 discussion about what the Department is**  **6 capable of as far as communicating or public**  **7 outreach or a public affairs campaign**  **8 regarding the new standard?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, from AHRI**  **10 and HARDI's comments to the original note, it**  **11 seems that public outreach is an important**  **12 part of the enforcement process. So, I think**  **13 that is on the table. So, I think developing**  **14 an enforcement or an enforcement outreach**  **15 public campaign, which means that we have in**  **16 the scope, so I think we should have that,**  **17 yes.**  **18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **19 Gary.**  **20 You know, I am not sure what DOE**  **21 can and can't do. Doug is probably going to**  **22 tell us more about that tomorrow.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But I have this vision of the**  **2 contractor selling the product to the**  **3 customer. Now the customer may be a**  **4 homebuilder. It may be new construction. It**  **5 might be retrofit.**  **6 The product that is being sold**  **7 might be a condensing unit only. It might be**  **8 a condensing unit and a third-party coil. It**  **9 might be a condensing unit and a factory coil.**  **10 And there is some combination of these parts**  **11 that determines whether it meets the**  **12 regulation or not.**  **13 So, I am kind of envisioning this**  **14 table or framework that says, if this, then**  **15 this. Now how we are going to ascertain**  **16 whether every contractor does exactly that or**  **17 not is another matter. But understanding what**  **18 constitutes compliance ought not to be that**  **19 difficult if we make up a table that shows it.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug.**  **21 So, I think what constitutes**  **22 compliance is the issue that Harvey seems to** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be asking about and that the Department is**  **2 answering separate to this. Because it layers**  **3 on more than just the regional standards**  **4 because we have national standards that it**  **5 applies to, too. How do you determine what 13**  **6 or 14 SEER is and in what context?**  **7 But, from the point of view of how**  **8 we ascertain what is installed or not, that is**  **9 really important to us. And so, monitoring**  **10 what is installed, that is all part of the**  **11 question to do that. So, what mechanisms do**  **12 we have to monitor what is installed? How do**  **13 we want to keep track of that? What records**  **14 do we want retained? Those all seem to be**  **15 part of the scope of what the tools will be**  **16 that we will want to be using. So, I**  **17 definitely think that is all fair game for**  **18 this group to talk about.**  **19 MR. EISNER: Any thoughts? Other**  **20 issues?**  **21 MEMBER NOLL: You can put on the**  **22 scope what records need to be kept.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: What records are**  **2 kept?**  **3 MEMBER NOLL: What Doug just said.**  **4 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary**  **5 again.**  **6 After I said it ought to be fairly**  **7 easy, the room got really quiet.**  **8 (Laughter.)**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey**  **10 again.**  **11 With reference to 100 percent**  **12 compliance and with reference to records, a**  **13 couple of years ago, when the furnaces issue**  **14 first got hot, if I could say that, AGA pulled**  **15 together a working group which did a fair**  **16 amount of thinking on some of these things.**  **17 It was real-world applications in the context**  **18 of waivers. And I wonder if some of that**  **19 might be brought forward.**  **20 And Elizabeth is hiding. So,**  **21 maybe I will shut up.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So, it sounds like** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you are suggesting some resources that might**  **2 be useful for us from that particular**  **3 discussion?**  **4 MEMBER SACHS: I am asking if**  **5 there are any gems in that that might be**  **6 useful.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **8 MEMBER NOLL: So, for the public**  **9 record -- this is Elizabeth at NRDC -- I was**  **10 formerly with the American Gas Association,**  **11 and part of the conversations that we had**  **12 around the furnace framework for regional**  **13 enforcement and the documents that you are**  **14 talking about are all part of the public**  **15 record. So, part of the regional enforcement,**  **16 we can dig those out and circulate them, if**  **17 they are helpful.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: So, we will count it**  **19 with the list of resources that we have up**  **20 there. We have a lot of them, apparently, at**  **21 our fingertips.**  **22 So, is there anything else for** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 scope? I mean, it is a pretty extensive list**  **2 already, and we all have homework to do,**  **3 obviously. So, it would be nice if we could**  **4 break and start working on our homework and**  **5 meet tomorrow and be a little more smarter**  **6 about things, if that works for folks. I know**  **7 you people traveled here, and I don't want to**  **8 people to leave early, but I think that would**  **9 be nice to work on some of these items.**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **11 White.**  **12 The only other thing that really I**  **13 have heard mentioned is discussions of space**  **14 constraints with large equipment.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Can you go**  **16 into that more, because I am not familiar with**  **17 that topic?**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: Well, it is higher**  **19 SEER equipment typically is physically larger.**  **20 Coils get bigger. Outside units get bigger.**  **21 And some people have commented that in certain**  **22 installations where you have multiple units,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you don't have the clearance. And so, I don't**  **2 know exactly how it fits in here, but it does**  **3 kind of --**  **4 MR. RAWALD: What I am hearing you**  **5 say, Chuck, I think is, could we think about**  **6 some sort of waiver process akin to what was**  **7 for furnaces --**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: Yes. Yes.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: -- for those**  **10 installations where we are physically**  **11 incapable of trying to meet the SEER value.**  **12 MEMBER WHITE: Right, but you are**  **13 doing a very good job of putting those words**  **14 in my mouth.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Is that what you are**  **16 suggesting?**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: Well, just**  **18 consideration --**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER WHITE: -- a discussion of**  **21 it.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: I think that is** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 within the scope. Certainly, we could talk**  **2 about the idea of a waiver for those kinds --**  **3 MEMBER WHITE: I don't know that I**  **4 am advocating that, but I know --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **6 MEMBER WHITE: -- it needs to be**  **7 talked about.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: And I don't think by**  **9 putting it up there we are saying that you**  **10 believe in it, either. But I think it is**  **11 something that is within the scope of this.**  **12 Do we think there should be a waiver process**  **13 for un-enforcement of standards for people**  **14 that physically are incapable of installing**  **15 units that are otherwise required by law.**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Yes.**  **17 This is Chuck White again.**  **18 There is just one more comment I**  **19 would like to make, and that is speaking for**  **20 contractors. And you put words in Glenn's**  **21 mouth here. But contractors really are kind**  **22 of simple. They want to do the right thing.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Tell us what to do. Tell us the rules to**  **2 follow, and we will do our best to follow**  **3 them.**  **4 And the definitions of what these**  **5 things are are important to us, so that we do**  **6 the right thing. Not every contractor; there**  **7 are people out there that are doing**  **8 substandard work and working out of the back**  **9 of their car, and, you know, all that kind of**  **10 stuff. But the bulk of the good contractors**  **11 out there want to do what is right. So, we**  **12 need to make it clear and easy and simple to**  **13 follow, and they will follow.**  **14 MR. EISNER: Anything else?**  **15 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes. This is Bryan**  **16 Rocky.**  **17 The engineer in me kind of got**  **18 into this for a second. So, we are talking**  **19 about split-system AC and packaged AC units.**  **20 We all know that.**  **21 Two regions we are dealing with,**  **22 and we are talking about systems that are** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 either going as replacement opportunities or**  **2 new home construction. That is one variable.**  **3 We are talking about units that**  **4 may have dry charge or factory charge. That**  **5 is a second variable.**  **6 We are talking about units that**  **7 are rated with loose coils or as part of a**  **8 system with an advanced indoor fan assembly.**  **9 That is the third variable.**  **10 We are talking about whether or**  **11 not units may or may not have independent coil**  **12 manufacturer ratings or not. That is the**  **13 fourth variable.**  **14 We are talking about date of**  **15 manufacture versus date of installation. That**  **16 is the fifth variable.**  **17 What did I miss that we are trying**  **18 to combine on all this? Oh, yes, we have a**  **19 different rule for heat pumps, furnaces, and**  **20 AC, based on date of manufacture, date of**  **21 installation or inventory sell-through**  **22 periods.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And we are going to make this**  **2 simple and easy to understand to the**  **3 contractor, who is the person who is doing the**  **4 selling and the installation for our**  **5 homeowners, which is all of us as well.**  **6 MEMBER HOURAHAN: And you want**  **7 that all on a label, so a homeowner could look**  **8 at it and, at a glance, tell whether or not**  **9 the contractor did the right job.**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: By October 30th,**  **11 please.**  **12 (Laughter.)**  **13 MEMBER ROCKY: So, it is complex.**  **14 MEMBER GIBBONS: Yes, and this is**  **15 John, Carrier.**  **16 It is kind of public awareness as**  **17 well. So, what they are talking about is how**  **18 is the public going to know about all this.**  **19 And it is tough.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what I**  **21 hear you saying, Bryan, is, boy, we are taking**  **22 on a lot and we are going to make sure we have** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a lot of these meetings because there is a lot**  **2 to do in a very short period of time.**  **3 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes, I think as you**  **4 go through this, the importance of some of the**  **5 discussions on what or where the Department is**  **6 headed with some of these issues, like what is**  **7 a 14 SEER system, clarifies several of those**  **8 issues, right? And whether or not we need to**  **9 cover dry charge separately as a replacement**  **10 component versus a system helps clarify some**  **11 more of these questions.**  **12 And I am just trying to think of**  **13 the number of variables and what can we**  **14 eliminate with a little more knowledge. Or we**  **15 are going to have to assume all cases for**  **16 these different situations, right?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: No, Bryan, I do hear**  **18 you. Thank you for that good summary, though.**  **19 It is very helpful. No, that was.**  **20 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?**  **21 Anybody want to get a refresher, go through**  **22 the list, or do you want to break for the day** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and go home and think about it?**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I mean, from my**  **3 point of view, I request that we break for the**  **4 day because I certainly have a lot of "asks"**  **5 from you guys to get started on. But I am not**  **6 averse to staying here if there is more people**  **7 want to hackle with, but I think it looks**  **8 pretty comprehensive at this point.**  **9 MEMBER PORTER: Will you be able**  **10 to email that list this evening?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Right. Jeremiah can**  **12 email the list to you.**  **13 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. Thanks.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Uh-hum.**  **15 MEMBER SHEPHERD: This is Amy**  **16 Shepherd from AHRI.**  **17 Just for a clarification for**  **18 tomorrow, if we start off with sort of this**  **19 educational session, do we have a general**  **20 framework? That is a long list. So, to think**  **21 about how we organize our thoughts or what we**  **22 are going to be discussing tomorrow, any** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 particular order or topic or should we just --**  **2 MR. EISNER: Well, I mean, this is**  **3 the list. We could try to organize this list**  **4 or we could two or three things off and say**  **5 this is what we will discuss tomorrow after**  **6 Doug's briefing, whatever you think is the**  **7 best way to do it.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I guess**  **9 the second thing up on the order, it would**  **10 seem to me, after the educational piece was**  **11 the discussion of what things do we need to**  **12 know. Now Bryan provided a very good list.**  **13 So, I think it is pretty comprehensive. So,**  **14 I hope that discussion will be short. But I**  **15 do want people to spend the nighttime thinking**  **16 about it, just to make sure that I have the**  **17 complete list of "asks," so I can make sure**  **18 that I am getting those things accomplished.**  **19 And after that, it is open to you**  **20 guys. So, what do you want? Where do you**  **21 want to move next, I guess is what Neil is**  **22 saying. So, if there is something else that** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you are ready to tackle next, knowing that we**  **2 don't have answers to those threshold**  **3 questions, I mean, can we talk about**  **4 definitions? Can we at least define who the**  **5 actors are in the community and what they are?**  **6 Can we get to some of these answers about**  **7 different roles and responsibilities possibly**  **8 a little bit in that process?**  **9 MR. EISNER: What do you think**  **10 about starting with definitions? Okay.**  **11 Unless somebody disagrees, definitions would**  **12 be No. 1 on the list.**  **13 Approximately how much time would**  **14 you estimate we would need for that? Are we**  **15 talking a brief amount of time, a lot of time?**  **16 That is usually complex. We have got a lot of**  **17 terms.**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: Well, there may be**  **19 some that end up with blank spaces. But we**  **20 make the list.**  **21 MR. EISNER: What would be No. 2**  **22 on your list?** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **2 And having put people on the spot**  **3 all day, I will continue. I would like to**  **4 pick up on Chuck's comments and see if perhaps**  **5 HARDI and PHCC and ACCA could sort of fill us**  **6 in on what do they think their ends of the**  **7 industry could do. What is the ideal tool**  **8 that a contractor would like to have to assure**  **9 that what he is putting in is legal? That**  **10 might be a helpful perspective for us, as we**  **11 are thinking about how close to that we can**  **12 come. Can you do it?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: It is Chuck's list, I**  **14 guess. Charlie is also standing up.**  **15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Well, I think,**  **16 like a lot of us, what tool would help us with**  **17 what is legal still hinges on what is legal.**  **18 And I am not pushing back. I am just saying**  **19 that we are in the same conundrum.**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: Yes. Thanks,**  **21 Charlie. What I am trying to sort of ask is,**  **22 at the end of the day, what would help your** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 members feel good about what they are doing in**  **2 terms of this compliance? What would be the**  **3 ideal that they would reach for?**  **4 MR. McCRUDDEN: Yes, I think I**  **5 will have to go back for comments to the**  **6 framework document, to those 11 --**  **7 MEMBER SACHS: Okay.**  **8 MR. McCRUDDEN: Because I don't**  **9 want to misrepresent what we said. But, you**  **10 know, certainly -- and this is going to sound**  **11 overly general -- but simple, effective, I**  **12 mean some protection for the contractor who is**  **13 abiding by the rules; something that punishes**  **14 the term I use is "bottom feeder," because I**  **15 can't say "unlicensed contractor" because**  **16 licensing is required everywhere. And I will**  **17 just say the contractor who takes advantage of**  **18 loopholes, or whatever.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: So, I guess what I am**  **20 hearing Harvey tee-up is for you to kind of**  **21 elaborate more on what would those things**  **22 be --** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: Right.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: -- to help do that.**  **3 And that would be a helpful discussion point**  **4 to at least begin with from that end of the**  **5 industry.**  **6 MR. McCRUDDEN: Yes.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: What would be the**  **8 thing that would help there? And if you could**  **9 discuss that tomorrow, great. If you need two**  **10 weeks to do it, then we can come back and do**  **11 it at the next meeting. But it would be nice**  **12 if you could talk about that tomorrow.**  **13 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, this is Chuck**  **14 White.**  **15 At one point I was thinking we are**  **16 asking you for some education on DOE, but I**  **17 think maybe around the table you guys need**  **18 some education about the life of a contractor.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: I think that would be**  **20 very helpful.**  **21 MEMBER WHITE: About how**  **22 businesses operate and the pressures we face,** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and what happens in the day-to-day business.**  **2 And again, if we all have the**  **3 rules and we all play by the same rules, it is**  **4 pretty easy. But there's a lot of people out**  **5 there that don't play by the rules.**  **6 And I think we can talk a little**  **7 about what the common understandings of the**  **8 rules are now. And it is not something I**  **9 think we want to get into tonight, but we can**  **10 spend a little bit of time tomorrow talking**  **11 about it.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: So, maybe what I see**  **13 you kind of coalescing is a little bit of an**  **14 idea of tomorrow being very educational in**  **15 scope. And maybe everyone can kind of lay out**  **16 where their interests lie and what the**  **17 relevant impacts are of an enforcement**  **18 framework, and kind of help us all see where**  **19 we stand.**  **20 So, then, we have two weeks to go**  **21 back and say, "Okay, well, now I understand**  **22 where Dave is coming from" or "I understand** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 where Amy is coming from," and I can kind of**  **2 help bridge the gap here with some of my**  **3 thoughts on what would be the appropriate way**  **4 to enforce this now.**  **5 So, maybe that is the best way to**  **6 spend tomorrow, is for us all to kind of lay**  **7 out: here's where my interests are and here's**  **8 how we are affected by it and here's how we**  **9 operate and here's the pressures we face. And**  **10 here's the tools that will help me work better**  **11 or that would dis-incentivize me from**  **12 working or put me out of business, as Karen**  **13 pointed out before. So, what risks are we**  **14 facing?**  **15 MR. MELCHI: Doug, this is John**  **16 Melchi from HARDI.**  **17 I just think it is important,**  **18 though, to recognize that all of these**  **19 solutions may not come from the DOE. They may**  **20 come from the private sector, from**  **21 manufacturers' relationships with their**  **22 distributors, distributors' relationships with** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 their contractors, and not necessarily**  **2 something that needs to be or should be**  **3 mandated from what is the output of this**  **4 group.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I want to**  **6 be clear that an effective enforcement program**  **7 to Doug Rawald, sitting here today, does not**  **8 seem essentially to require it all be what**  **9 would be regulatory punishments. It is what**  **10 is going to work, based on what the industry**  **11 is saying they do together anyway.**  **12 MR. MELCHI: Yes, and I just want**  **13 to be clear that I think, as we move forward**  **14 in this -- and it is not something that I**  **15 think our industry has been through before --**  **16 that there is likely to be a lot of innovation**  **17 between different companies. Company X may**  **18 come out with this great marketing tool that**  **19 Company Y may not have right now. And they**  **20 may come out with something that is even**  **21 better. I think there is going to be**  **22 continued evolution in the education of the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 channel.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **3 MR. EISNER: Sometimes when you**  **4 think about what we oftentimes refer to as**  **5 enforcement programs, you start thinking about**  **6 penalties. Sometimes it is better to think of**  **7 it from the positive way. What do we need to**  **8 comply? Rather than, what do we need to avoid**  **9 being penalized?**  **10 So, if you had the responsibility**  **11 of ensuring compliance with the statute, what**  **12 could you do? What resources do you have?**  **13 Not think about it as an enforcement program.**  **14 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter from**  **15 HARDI.**  **16 I think I keep hearing simplicity.**  **17 I think if we can't explain this to the**  **18 homeowner, it would be very difficult to**  **19 enforce.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Well, maybe that is**  **21 something that we could discuss tomorrow, too,**  **22 is: what does a homeowner need to know? I** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 mean, what do they need to know?**  **2 MEMBER HOURAHAN: A homeowner**  **3 needs to know whether they have a legally**  **4 installed machine in their home.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. But I meant**  **6 from a more detailed point of view. Like**  **7 let's elaborate. Let's figure out what**  **8 exactly do we need to make sure the homeowner**  **9 is aware up North for them to be informed and**  **10 make sure they are doing everything. So, I**  **11 think that is something to think about tonight**  **12 and talk about tomorrow.**  **13 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, this is**  **14 Gary.**  **15 I would just like to make an**  **16 observation because I had my furnace replaced**  **17 a couple of years ago. And even though I have**  **18 spent a whole career in this field, I didn't**  **19 know. And had it not been for my contractor**  **20 knowing what needed to be done, I would have**  **21 gotten the wrong thing.**  **22 What happened was the distributor** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 shipped the wrong product to my house. And**  **2 the contractor noticed it; I didn't. And,**  **3 sure enough, it went back and another one came**  **4 and was installed.**  **5 So, I trust my contractor to know**  **6 what the requirements are. As a homeowner, I**  **7 am never going to know that.**  **8 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst**  **9 with Lennox.**  **10 I think back to Harvey's earlier**  **11 point. It may be helpful to facilitate the**  **12 discussion tomorrow by looking at a couple of**  **13 different scenarios.**  **14 One is if we had clarity around**  **15 all of these things, and one is if we take the**  **16 more ambiguous route.**  **17 Somebody was saying earlier -- I**  **18 think, Steve, it was you -- about, you know,**  **19 how does the homeowner know? I don't even**  **20 know if I can explain it to my product**  **21 management team or my engineers or my CEO**  **22 right now.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, I think if we can take a**  **2 scenario that says all these issues are**  **3 resolved -- and I know that may be rose**  **4 colored glasses -- but also if they are not,**  **5 it leads me to two very different enforcement**  **6 scenarios. And that is what I think we are**  **7 all kind of getting hung up on.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Well, Neil, it sounds**  **9 like we have a plan for tomorrow.**  **10 I'm sorry.**  **11 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, I was**  **12 going to further comment. We have talked a**  **13 lot about tools.**  **14 This is Matt Lattanzi with**  **15 NORDYNE.**  **16 And one that came up was the**  **17 energy guide label. I think that is a good**  **18 one. But one that I didn't hear mentioned in**  **19 the room is the AHRI database. And I think**  **20 that is a tool that we can put out on the**  **21 table as an avenue for contractors,**  **22 distributors, manufacturers alike, to help us** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the enforcement as well.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug**  **3 Rawald.**  **4 I guess, yes, from Chuck and**  **5 Glenn, I would like to hear from you what role**  **6 that plays in what a contractor does. You**  **7 know, how often they use that kind of**  **8 extensive -- how valuable a tool it is for**  **9 them. That would be helpful, I know.**  **10 MR. EISNER: Okay.**  **11 MEMBER HOURAHAN: That database,**  **12 that certificate the contractors print out is**  **13 actually very widely used and is very**  **14 important for a contractor to point to the**  **15 homeowner and say, "I'm giving you this**  **16 outdoor unit with this indoor coil with this**  **17 furnace, and here's my match number and here's**  **18 the efficiency, per the certificate." So,**  **19 that is a very effective and important tool.**  **20 MEMBER LATTANZI: One further**  **21 comment. In addition to the certificate, we**  **22 have now added the energy guide label to the** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 database. So, you can go right into the**  **2 database and click on it and see that label.**  **3 So, the combination of those two tools should**  **4 be very helpful.**  **5 MR. EISNER: A naive question**  **6 perhaps, but is any of this stuff automated?**  **7 Can it be automated? So, for example, you**  **8 just take your label and run a smartphone over**  **9 it, reading a QR code, and tell you, based on**  **10 your location, this is accurate?**  **11 MEMBER BALLO: The FTC has**  **12 recently rejected a proposal to include QR**  **13 codes in labels.**  **14 But what I was going to bring up**  **15 is that my understanding from the recent FTC**  **16 proposal on labeling is that for this**  **17 equipment FTC intends to use DOE's**  **18 certification, Compliance Certification**  **19 Management System, to enable consumers to plug**  **20 in the model number of their equipment and,**  **21 then, use somehow in CCMS, to have it**  **22 displayed to them their annual operating cost** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and the capacity of their unit.**  **2 So, is there more we can be doing**  **3 with CCMS if the plan is to already sort of**  **4 direct traffic to that site?**  **5 MR. EISNER: Yes?**  **6 MR. MELCHI: I'm John Melchi.**  **7 I'm sorry, one last I guess point**  **8 or question. Harvey made a good "ask" to**  **9 industry about how to make this successful.**  **10 I guess my question for the advocate community**  **11 is, what does a successful enforcement plan**  **12 look like for you guys?**  **13 MEMBER SACHS: I will try to**  **14 answer it.**  **15 MR. MELCHI: And for everybody**  **16 around the table.**  **17 Thank you.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything**  **19 further?**  **20 (No response.)**  **21 All right. It is 10 to 4:00. We**  **22 will let you out early today.** 

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202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Just as a reminder,**  **2 tomorrow we are not in this building. So, we**  **3 are in 950 L'Enfant Plaza. So, that building**  **4 is by the L'Enfant Plaza Hotel. So, it is the**  **5 office of the program with which we work. And**  **6 so, you will be on the sixth floor there.**  **7 Jeremiah, we will still all be**  **8 meeting on the first floor there? Okay. So,**  **9 Brenda will be there and she will tell you**  **10 what room to go into and make sure that you**  **11 have your appropriate credentials to get into**  **12 that building.**  **13 It is a little closer to nice**  **14 lunch options. So, that is a plus. And it is**  **15 not quite as constraining as this office. But**  **16 we will be there tomorrow.**  **17 There will be a sign-in table.**  **18 It is 950, right? Yes, 9-5-0**  **19 L'Enfant Plaza.**  **20 (Whereupon, at 3:49 p.m., the**  **21 meeting adjourned for the day, to reconvene**  **22 the following day, Thursday, August 14, 2014.)** 202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 376** A A-F-T-E-R-N-O-...

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248:2,4,15 254:1 265:21 266:4 276:8,14,15 277:1 277:3 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 419

Regional Standards Enforcement Working Group Meeting

US DOE

08-13-14

Washington, DC