1 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

RECElVE 

IN THE MATTER OF: JAN 2 3 2014 

HEARING DOCK T FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

v. FDMS No. 

FAA-2013-0045 

WORLDWIDE AIRCRAFT 

SERVICES, INC. , 

Respondent. 

Wednesday, 

January 8, 2014 

Via Teleconference 

The above-entitled matter came on, 

pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

(202) 234-4433 

THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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2 

APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

WILLIAM P. VINES, ESQ. 

Office of the Regional Counsel 

Southern Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

P.O. Box 20636 

Atlanta, GA 30320 

(404) 305-5200 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

(202) 234-4433 

MICHAEL A. HONEYCUTT, President 

ROBIN LEVIJA 

Worldwide Aircraft Services, Inc., 

c I 0 JET I. c . u. 

2561 Rescue Way 

Brooksville, FL 34604 

(352) 796-2540 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 10:38 a.m. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We 1 re on the 

4 record in the matter of Worldwide Aircraft 

5 Services, Inc. This is Docket Number FAA6 2013-0045. 

7 Today is Wednesday, January 8th, 

8 2014 and the parties have appeared for a 

9 prehearinglitigation conference that has been 

10 scheduled on the parties 1 calendars since June 

11 6th, 2013. 

12 The FAA is represented by its 

13 attorney of record, Mr. William P. Vines. The 

14 Respondent, Worldwide Aircraft Services, Inc. , 

15 is currently appearing through Ms. Robin 

16 Levija, the bookkeeper for the company. 

17 No other parties are present in 

18 this telephone conference today. As the 

19 record indicates, on June 6th, 2013 the 

20 parties appeared for a litigation scheduling 

21 conference and at that time. 

22 Today 1 s conference date and time 

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1 were scheduled by agreement of the parties and 

2 that was codified in writing by the June 6th, 

3 2013 order setting litigation dates and 

4 procedures, which was served on the parties 

5 that same day. 

6 Ms. Levija, Mr. Honeycutt is the 

7 official representative of the Respondent in 

8 these proceedings. Is there some reason that 

9 he is not present? 

10 MS. LEVIJA: I'm not aware of why, 

11 your Honor. Basically, I got a call this 

12 morning around 9:15 from Pat Matthews telling 

13 us that there was a conference scheduled. 

14 I took all the information and 

15 texted Mr. Honeycutt because he was not in the 

16 office and he called in and said he would not 

17 be available until 11:15, 11:30 and for me to 

18 call back and try to reschedule this 

19 conference. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Did he explain 

21 why he was not available? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MS. LEVIJA: No, ma'am. 

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He did 

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1 not. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If he called you 

3 in the office is there some reason why he did 

4 not - well, you wouldn't know. Excuse me. 

5 Thank you. 

6 Mr. Vines, let's turn to you. I 

7 did not, as you know, receive any motion for 

8 summary judgment either from you or from Mr. 

9 Honeycutt. Can you tell me the status of the 

10 case at this point? Are the parties planning 

11 to go to trial in March? 

12 MR. VINES: Judge, at the onset of 

13 the issuance of the notice of proposed civil 

14 penalty Mr. Honeycutt related to me that he 

15 wanted to try the case and made no counter 

16 offer of settlement or wanted to enter into 

17 settlement negotiations. 

18 Since then, we have - the parties 

19 have engaged in discovery. I have requested 

20 discovery. Mr. Honeycutt's company has 

21 responded and replied to this agency's 

22 discovery request and as of this date, again, 

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1 there's been no discussion of settlement and 

2 from my point of view that was based on Mr. 

3 Honeycutt's position that he wanted to go to 

4 the hearing. 

5 So because of that it's my 

6 expectation that we will proceed to a hearing. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you 

8 completed all of your discovery? 

9 MR. VINES: I believe so, Judge, 

10 we have. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And can 

12 you tell me if there has been through the 

13 discovery process any narrowing of the issues? 

14 MR. VINES: The - according to the 

15 Respondent's responses to the agency's 

16 discovery request there have been some 

17 admissions of some of the allegations 

18 contained in the final notice. 

19 However, I don't believe they are 

20 sufficient to request a motion for summary 

21 judgement. So at the minimum there have been 

22 stipulations to the - some of the allegations 

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1 in the final notice but not to all of them. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Do you 

3 have then a narrowing of some of the matters 

4 that you would need as the prosecuting agent 

5 to prove at a testimonial hearing? 

6 It sounds like you have but I'm 

7 maybe mishearing you. 

8 MR. VINES: Judge, would you 

9 kindly repeat your question? 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. It sounds 

11 to me from what you've just said that you've 

12 had some admissions to certain factual pieces 

13 of evidence and that because of those 

14 admissions you will not need to prove certain 

15 facts. 

16 Is that what I'm hearing from you? 

17 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. If there 

19 have been admissions and you're working with 

20 a pro se litigant who may not understand the 

21 reality of those admissions it might be 

22 helpful for you to simply note and one of the 

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1 reasons that we have these kinds of 

2 conferences is to do that so that a litigating 

3 party can understand it but to know either 

4 orally or in writing that such things have 

5 been admitted, they are no longer in contest 

6 and that they will be deemed stipulated to by 

7 the parties for the purposes of trial. 

8 So we have a February 21, 2014 due 

9 date for written stipulations or motions in 

10 limine and I would suggest to you that you may 

11 want to just file a motion in limine at your 

12 earliest convenience to state that there have 

13 been certain admissions and that you are going 

14 to move in limine at the beginning of trial 

15 for the Court to take notice of those 

16 admissions so that the parties don't need to 

17 bring evidence to present on those particular 

18 facts. 

19 And in that way you're basically 

20 notifying your opposing party that the 

21 disputed matters upon which testimonial or 

22 documentary evidence must be presented has 

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1 narrowed- that neither you nor they will need 

2 to address those kinds of things because it's 

3 admitted to. 

4 If Mr. Honeycutt were a lawyer he 

5 would know that. Since he's not a lawyer and 

6 he's not attending today he may not know that. 

7 I don't know his level of sophistication well 

8 enough to say. 

9 But since you do have some matters 

10 that have been admitted, if they are not 

11 specifically stipulated to by the other side 

12 you certainly can make a motion in limine for 

13 the Court to make a finding that they're not 

14 disputed that they're undisputed facts. 

15 Does that make sense? 

16 MR. VINES: Yes, it does, Judge. 

17 But to the second part of the motion in limine 

18 it's my understanding this is general 

19 discovery process. When a party admits to an 

20 allegation that's been essentially the same as 

21 being a fact. 

22 But I guess what you're asking, 

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1 just to make sure I understand - well, to 

2 understand - to make sure I'm clear of what 

3 you're asking you're asking me to make that a 

4 formality and go ahead and file the motion in 

5 limine. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I am because 

7 you're dealing with a pro se litigant. 

8 MR. VINES: Okay. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And a pro se 

10 litigant does not have the sophistication, the 

11 education or the experience to understand like 

12 an attorney would what an admission means. 

13 So what I'm saying to you is that 

14 we're dealing with a prose litigant, someone 

15 who does not have the level of experience, 

16 education or sophistication that you have and 

17 who has made some admissions according to you 

18 in the discovery process. 

19 The earlier you can make it clear 

20 unequivocally to your friend across the aisle, 

21 the pro se representative of Worldwide 

22 Aircraft Services, Inc., that factual evidence 

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1 is now more limited because of the admissions 

2 the better off, I think, everyone will be. 

3 That way -

4 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. That way 

6 you have a written notification that's clear, 

7 unequivocal and easy to understand for your 

8 friend across the aisle and you also have 

9 given me a heads up as to what the scope of 

10 the trial will be. 

11 So it should be a fairly simple 

12 type of motion where you can basically move in 

13 limine - you know, just a heads up motion ln 

14 limine filed this week, next week, whenever 

15 you can do that comfortably. 

16 It says that there have been 

17 certain admissions provided in discovery and 

18 you can even copy those off, you know, from 

19 the discovery responses and say, you know, A, 

20 B and C have been admitted and will no longer 

21 be matters of dispute at trial so that you 

22 have noticed to your pro se litigant that the 

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1 matters that are triable during the March 2014 

2 trial have been narrowed and are reduced, and 

3 that way we don't have a pro se litigant 

4 coming to the trial and spending a half a day 

5 disputing matters that they previously have 

6 admitted. 

7 And I say that not because I think 

8 that Mr. Honeycutt might do that but because 

9 I've had - I don't - let me change that. I 

10 say that not because I know that Mr. Honeycutt 

11 would do that. 

12 I say that because I've had pro se 

13 litigants in other cases do it and I don't 

14 want people to be misusing their time at trial 

15 or being upset when they come to trial 

16 thinking that the bulk of their case is being 

17 denied an air hearing when if asked they've 

18 already admitted to those facts and just 

19 didn't understand it. 

20 So I'm trying to encourage you to 

21 assist the Court in making it clear to your 

22 opposing litigant where the attention is going 

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1 to be drawn by the parties and the Court in 

2 terms of what's disputed. Does that make 

3 sense? 

4 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In terms 

6 of what the - the actual disputes remain, can 

7 you give me a highlight now as to what the 

8 actual disputes are based on the admissions 

9 that you've already received? 

10 MR. VINES: Judge, I believe the 

11 disputed issues will be whether - I don't 

12 know, Judge. First of all, do you have a copy 

13 of the file notice with you? 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have a copy of 

15 the complaint only. 

16 MR. VINES: Okay, which should be 

17 the final notice. Essentially, Judge, there 

18 are several allegations that not - that have 

19 not been admitted by the Respondent. 

20 I can give you those allegations 

21 on this. I think that would probably be the 

22 quickest way to explain that to you -

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

2 MR. VINES: to answer your 

3 question. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Then let's go 

5 through it - Page 1 of the complaint, Page 2, 

6 Page 3. That would be most helpful. Hello? 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

8 MR. VINES: Judge, I'm with you. 

9 I'm pulling the actual complaint so that we're 

10 on the same page. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT: Judge Sullivan? 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: This is Mike 

15 Honeycutt. I just walked in and am on the 

16 phone now. So I apologize. I did not know 

17 about this conference call. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'll note that 

19 it's now 10:50 in the morning. Mr. Honeycutt 

20 has just joined us. Mr. Honeycutt, is Ms. 

21 Levija on the phone still? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. HONEYCUIT: No. No, no. No, 

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1 rna' am. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when did she 

3 leave the conference? 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: I just got in just 

5 as Mr. Vines was saying about the reading of 

6 the disputes. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is Ms. Levija in 

8 the room still? 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: She just stepped 

10 out to try to find the file for me. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In the 

12 future, Mr. Honeycutt, a party is not allowed 

13 to leave the conference without permission of 

14 the Court. 

15 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So in the future 

17 you want to have Ms. Levija stay on the line 

18 until I excuse her. 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. I 

20 apologize. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then I would 

22 simply note, Mr. Honeycutt, that you've had 

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l notice of this conference since June 6th, 2013 

2 when we scheduled it while you were present 

3 and using your calendar. 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. I'm -

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You also received 

6 a written notice of it in the June 6th, 2013 

7 order setting litigation dates and procedures. 

8 So you've had working knowledge of this 

9 conference for seven months or more. 

10 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you for 

12 appearing late and we're going to proceed then 

13 with what Mr. Vines was going to do. Mr. 

14 Vines is basically telling me what matters 

15 you've admitted to in discovery so that I have 

16 an idea of what is remaining for trial. 

17 Mr. Vines has also told me that 

18 you have already told him that you do not want 

19 to settle this case and as a result you have 

20 not had any settlement discussions. So let me 

21 check in with you about that. 

22 Is there some - is there some room 

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1 still for any settlement discussions prior to 

2 the March 2014 trial in your opinion, Mr. 

3 Honeycutt? 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. I do 

5 believe there's a potential to resolve the 

6 case before trial. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is there 

8 some reason why you have not contacted Mr. 

9 Vines to talk about that? 

10 MR. HONEYCUTT: I believe I did 

11 send- I'll have to go back to my records. I 

12 thought I sent Mr. Vines an email in there and 

13 responding to some of the information. I 

14 thought I included in one of my emails that I 

15 said would this be potentially something we 

16 could settle before court. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then what 

18 I'm going to do is I'm going to ask both of 

19 you to continue that discussion privately 

2 0 after this conference is over. You're welcome 

21 to continue talking about settlement up until 

22 and through the trial part. 

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1 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But for now I'm 

3 going to ask Mr. Vines to tell me what you, on 

4 behalf of your client, have admitted to so 

5 that I have a better sense of what the 

6 disputed issues are that remain for trial. 

7 And Mr. Vines, since Mr. Honeycutt 

8 is on the line now maybe we can do this 

9 without a motion in limine filed. So, sir, I 

10 have the first page of the complaint, Mr. 

11 Vines. 

12 Can you tell me what if anything 

13 on the first page has been admitted? 

14 MR. VINES: Paragraphs two and 

15 three - two and three. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So I have - and 

17 when I - when you say paragraphs two and three 

18 I have Roman numerals I and II and then 

19 regular numbers one, two, three and four. Are 

20 you talking about paragraphs regular number 

21 two and three? 

22 MR. VINES: That's correct, your 

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1 Honor. Paragraph two would be at all times 

2 material herein and paragraph three would 

3 begin on or about May 3rd of 2009. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

5 And let's go to Page 2 of the three-page 

6 complaint. Anything on there that's been 

7 admitted. 

8 MR. VINES: Paragraphs five and 

9 six. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

11 MR. VINES: And that is all that's 

12 been admitted as to the complaint. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And what 

14 about Page 3? Anything on Page 3? Mr. Vines? 

15 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Anything on Page 

17 3? 

18 MR. VINES: I'm sorry, Judge. I 

19 thought I answered. No, Judge. Nothing on 

2 0 Page 3 . Nothing has been admit ted to on Page 

21 3. 

22 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

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1 Honeycutt, do you have a copy of the complaint 

2 in front of you? 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT : I'm diligently 

4 working through my paperwork, Judge. I don't 

5 have it. Notice of proposed civil penalty? 

6 Is this -

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. I have a 

8 copy of the complaint that was signed by Mr. 

9 Vines on February 20, 2013 and which was filed 

10 with my office as the allegation against your 

11 company, and if you don't have it with you -

12 what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you 

13 to look for it at your own time. 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then you want 

16 to take a look and see if you agree with Mr. 

17 Vines' representation that you have already 

18 admitted to the truth of allegations number 

19 two and three on Page 1 and five and six on 

20 Page 2. 

21 MR . HONEYCUTT : Number two and 

22 number three on Page 1. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. 

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: And -

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Numbers five and 

4 six on Page 2. 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: Right. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And if you don't 

7 agree then I'm going to ask you to file a 

8 written objection and explain why you don't 

9 agree and why Mr. Vines is incorrect in the 

10 assertion that you have already admitted them 

11 in discovery. 

12 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to 

14 ask you to do that on or before January 22nd, 

15 2014. 

16 MR. VINES: Judge, if I may 

17 interject. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 

19 MR. VINES: As part of my 

20 discovery request I also asked the Respondent 

21 to admit or deny some other factual 

22 allegations that were - that are not included 

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1 in the complaint and the Respondent did admit 

2 to some of those - some facts, as I said, were 

3 not included in the complaint. 

4 So from an efficiency standpoint 

5 it would probably be best if I went ahead and 

6 filed the motion in limine regarding the facts 

7 admitted to in the complaint as well as facts 

8 admitted to that are not contained in the 

9 complaint. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. When you 

11 say the facts not admitted in the complaint I 

12 take it that you're talking about facts that 

13 would make it more - how do I want to say 

14 this? 

15 You're asking - in your discovery 

16 request you were asking for admissions to 

17 facts that are relevant to this particular 

18 complaint that's been filed and is being 

19 litigated before me. Is that correct? 

2 0 MR. VINES: That's correct, Judge. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. They 

22 simply aren't identified specifically within 

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1 that complaint. 

2 MR. VINES: Correct. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 

4 we do this then? How soon, Mr. Vines, do you 

5 think you can file that particular motion so 

6 that we can make sure that Mr. Honeycutt is 

7 fully on board with what we'll actually be 

8 trying in March? 

9 MR. VINES: Judge, I am out of the 

10 office on Friday. However, I can have this in 

11 the mail by Thursday evening - my motion. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Thursday 

13 evening would be this Thursday or next 

14 Thursday? 

15 MR. VINES: This Thursday 

16 tomorrow evening, Judge. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So you'll 

18 file that January 9th, 2014 and I would be 

19 most appreciative if you could fax a copy to 

20 my office since I don't have control over how 

21 long it takes mail to be irradiated once it 

22 gets into the mail room at this department. 

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1 Mr. Honeycutt, why don't we do 

2 this then? Why don't we have you file any 

3 objection or response to that motion in limine 

4 on or before January 23rd, 2014? 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don't have to 

7 file an objection. If you agree that you have 

8 admitted all of those facts that you're going 

9 to see outlined in Mr. Vines' motion in limine 

10 that's fine. 

11 I just want to make sure you 

12 understand that when you admit to something it 

13 then becomes noncontroversial. 

14 It's an agreement that certain 

15 facts are true and when parties agree that 

16 certain facts are true then you don't have to 

17 come to court and present evidence about those 

18 facts. 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: I understand. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. When that 

21 happens then the scope of the trial becomes 

22 more narrow and instead of having to prove 

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1 everything or disprove everything you have a 

2 much smaller amount of information that is in 

3 dispute and as a result the parties can then 

4 spend more time presenting evidence on that 

5 smaller body of disputed material and it's 

6 very helpful if third parties come to trial 

7 knowing what that more focused arena is going 

8 to be. 

9 So if you agree essentially to 

10 what Mr. Vines files you're welcome to simply 

11 file a statement saying I agree that I 

12 admitted to all of those things and that's it. 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So okay. So we 

15 have then on February 7th, 2014 a deadline for 

16 both of you to file and serve the list of 

17 witnesses that you're going to call, a short 

18 statement of the testimony expected from each 

19 witness, if any of the witnesses are experts, 

20 a resume of their expertise and then you want 

21 to exchange with each other premarked 

22 documents and the documents that you exchange 

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1 should also have a cover sheet - an indexed 

2 cover sheet so that you have a page that 

3 identifies the documents an easy to use 

4 reference. 

5 You don't need to file that with 

6 me. You can save your copy until the day of 

7 the trial and when you come to the trial you 

8 want to have three copies for me. 

9 I'll take two of them essentially 

10 and one will go to the reporter, and the June 

11 6th, 2013 order setting litigation dates and 

12 procedures on Page 3 paragraph E as in egg 

13 talks about this and the paragraph E as in egg 

14 actually has a slight misstatement saying that 

15 one of the copies will go to me and two of 

16 them will go to the reporter. That's an 

17 error. 

18 It's actually I take two and the 

19 reporter takes one. So - but that shouldn't 

20 prevent you from bringing three copies. So 

21 three copies at the day of trial. 

22 If you have other stipulations or 

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1 any motions in limine in addition to the one 

2 that will be filed by the FAA on January 9th, 

3 2014 those should be filed on or before 

4 February 21, 2014. 

5 And then I will be sending out to 

6 both of you a notice of where in Tampa, 

7 Florida we will be holding the trial and I 

8 wait until I hold the conference such as this 

9 one before I actually reserve the courtroom 

10 time. 

11 The reason I wait until now is 

12 because sometimes when I get on the phone with 

13 the parties they're just about ready to settle 

14 a case and they're pretty sure they're not 

15 going to go to trial. 

16 So we wait here in this office 

17 until we hold this prehearing status 

18 conference to make sure that a trial courtroom 

19 is necessary. 

20 But for now it looks like the 

21 parties may be going to trial so I'll simply 

22 confirm that we have March 5th, 2014 and March 

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1 6th, 2014 as our hearing dates in Tampa, 

2 Florida. The hearing times are 9:00a.m. to 

3 5:00 p.m. each day. 

4 I will be taking a one-hour and 

5 15-minute lunch recess each day and I '11 also 

6 take a short morning and afternoon recess, 10 

7 or 15 minutes at most, so that people have a 

8 chance to make phone calls, use the restroom -

9 that kind of thing. 

10 Typically, in federal courthouses 

11 which is where we like to start looking for 

12 courtroom space you '11 need to schedule some 

13 time to go through security and depending on 

14 how early you get there. Typically, federal 

15 courthouses open between 8:00 and 8:30 in the 

16 morning. 

17 When I send out the hearing notice 

18 I '11 try and let you know what time that 

19 particular courtroom or courthouse opens so 

20 that you know. 

21 Mr. Vines, on behalf of your 

22 client you hopefully heard that Mr. Honeycutt 

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1 is still open to possible settlement 

2 discussions. I hope that you and he will have 

3 a chance to talk at least once before 

4 between now and March 5th, 2014. 

5 Is there anything else that I can 

6 address for your client today before we close, 

7 Mr. Vines? 

8 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. This will 

9 be my first trial in front of a DOT 

10 administrative law judge and I would like to 

11 find out the procedure in which to request 

12 subpoenas if the Court does have the authority 

13 to issue a subpoena. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I do have 

15 authority to issue subpoenas and typically 

16 what most people do is they simply send a 

17 request with the hearing docket because if you 

18 look at the regulations- I'm going to pull my 

19 copy up really quickly. 

20 The regulations allow you to 

21 request the same from either me or the hearing 

22 docket clerk and the easiest way to do it is 

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1 just to send the hearing docket clerk a 

2 request and the clerk has a boilerplate form 

3 that he or she will issue to you. 

4 So let me see if I can find that. 

5 It's 14 CFR Section 13.228. So you'll see in 

6 Subsection A that the hearing docket clerk 

7 basically can sign off on any subpoena 

8 request. 

9 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. You can 

11 submit it to me as well but I've heard from 

12 other attorneys in the FAA that they find it 

13 to be very quick to serve - to ask the hearing 

14 docket clerk because they have a streamlined 

15 process that we don't. 

16 But I'm happy to - I'm happy to 

17 respond to any requests as well. Just take a 

18 look at that rule and see what works for you. 

19 The sooner the better in terms of time since 

20 you have about two months. 

21 It's two months out. I would say 

22 the sooner the better. How many subpoenas do 

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1 you think you're going to be asking for? 

2 MR. VINES: Judge, I 'm looking 

3 through my notes. Potentially three to five. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. If 

5 you have any problems just let me know and I 

6 can help you. 

7 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

9 Any other questions, Mr. Vines, before I turn 

10 to Mr. Honeycutt? 

11 MR. VINES: No, Judge. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

13 Honeycutt, on behalf of Worldwide Aircraft 

14 Services, Inc., is there anything that you 

15 would like to know or to discuss on behalf of 

16 your client before we close today? 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: I just want to 

18 confirm again the counts that I'm agreeing to 

19 on Page 1 of the complaint. Is it number two? 

20 It's not Roman numeral II or I guess it lS the 

21 same complaint. I got Roman numeral I and 

22 then item one, Roman numeral II, number two, 

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1 count one which is three. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. And I 

3 what I'm going to do is I'm going to answer 

4 that question and then I will talk a little 

5 bit more about what we just did. 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So on Page 1 of 

8 the complaint under Roman numeral II there's 

9 a paragraph number two. 

10 MR. HONEYCUTT: Right. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Vines has 

12 asserted that you have admitted to that 

13 allegation. 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: Correct. At all 

15 times we're - Worldwide. Correct. I agree to 

16 that. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In 

18 addition, on Page 1 under count one there's a 

19 number three and Mr. Vines is asserting that 

20 you have also admitted to paragraph number 

21 three on Page 1 of the complaint. 

22 MR. HONEYCUTT: And that is 

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1 correct as well. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. On Page 2 

3 of the complaint there are paragraphs listed 

4 as number five and number six. Mr. Vines is 

5 asserting that you have admitted to both of 

6 those paragraphs. 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: Correct. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Now, okay. So 

9 we've cleared that up. What Mr. Vines has 

10 also said is that in your exchange of 

11 information during the discovery process he 

12 asked for other admissions on other facts that 

13 form the basis of some of the material in his 

14 complaint and you admitted to some but not all 

15 of those requests for information. 

16 Because some of that material is 

17 not directly repeated in the three-page 

18 complaint that has been filed in my office, 

19 Mr. Vines has said that he will be filing a 

20 motion in limine requesting or notifying -

21 requesting that the Court grant those 

22 admissions at the beginning of trial. 

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1 I asked him to do that because I 

2 think it's very helpful when we have someone 

3 such as yourself who is not an attorney 

4 representing a litigant. A motion in limine 

5 is something that is often made in writing 

6 prior to the trial actually starting. 

7 Mr. Vines is planning to file this 

8 motion in limine identifying each and every 

9 fact that he says you've admitted during this 

10 discovery process on or before the end of 

11 January 9th, 2014. 

12 That means he's going to file 

13 something identifying each of those undisputed 

14 facts before the end of the day tomorrow. 

15 Since you are a pro se litigant 

16 I'm going to ask you to be sure and take a 

17 look at that material that he files and if you 

18 have any objection or disagreement with his 

19 assertion that you've already admitted to 

20 those facts that will be in this motion he 

21 files tomorrow you need to file your 

22 objections and the bases for your objections 

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1 on or before January 23rd, 2014. 

2 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We've heard from 

4 you today that it sounds like you agree with 

5 Mr. Vines that you've admitted paragraphs two 

6 and three on Page 1 of the complaint and 

7 paragraphs five and six on Page 2 of the 

8 complaint, and that's very helpful because 

9 then both you and Mr. Vines are on the same 

10 page with what is ln dispute. 

11 Now, how many witnesses, Mr. 

12 Honeycutt, do you think you will be calling at 

13 this point? Do you have any idea? 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: No more than five, 

15 your Honor. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. On Page 2 

17 of the four-page order setting litigation 

18 dates and procedures, which was issued on June 

19 6th, 2013, there is a paragraph numbered 

20 number 10 that gives you a February 7, 2014 

21 deadline for exchanging witness lists and 

22 exhibits. Do you have that in front of you? 

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1 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. This is a 

3 deadline for you to serve Mr. Vines with a 

4 list of your witnesses which includes the name 

5 of the witness, how to contact them, a short 

6 statement of their testimony, their resume if 

7 it's an expert and then a copy of any and all 

8 documents that you plan to ask the Court to 

9 admit into evidence and consider in your 

10 defensive case. 

11 Whatever you give to Mr. Vines on 

12 February 7, 2014 you should also be bringing 

13 to the trial on March 5, 2 014. You should be 

14 bringing three exact copies of that for me. 

15 I will take two of them back to 

16 the office with me and the third copy goes to 

17 the court reporter. But they have to be, you 

18 know, a replica of what you give to Mr. Vines 

19 on February 7, 2014. 

20 Now, there are two parts to these 

21 kinds of trials. I think we talked a little 

22 bit about this on June 6th, 2013. One part of 

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1 the trial is whether or not the allegations 

2 made by the FAA are true. 

3 The second part of the trial is 

4 whether or not the FAA's recommended penalty 

5 is appropriate. There are certain ways to 

6 challenge the proposed penalty and we talked 

7 in June 2013 about reading the regulations and 

8 looking up information on the Web, I think, 

9 according to my notes, to become more educated 

10 about those defenses. 

11 Some of the defenses to the 

12 proposed penalty involve assertions of an 

13 inability to pay or the money is too much for 

14 the company - that kind of thing. And if you 

15 are making those assertions you do need to 

16 present evidence to support those kinds of 

17 assertions. 

18 So if you are asserting, for 

19 example, that your company can't afford it you 

20 have to provide financial documentation to 

21 support that assertion. 

22 

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If you are asserting that the 

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1 company will go out of business if it's forced 

2 to pay $12,000 or more you have to provide 

3 documentation or testimonial evidence that is 

4 reliable that supports that kind of assertion. 

5 So there are certain things that have to be 

6 proven at the trial level about the money. 

7 So I always look at these trials 

8 as a two-step trial process - one, whether the 

9 allegations have been proved or disproved, 

10 two, whether the recommended penalty is 

11 appropriate based on the nine separate steps 

12 that I'm required to look at. 

13 So, Mr. Honeycutt, in your defense 

14 against both the allegations and the penalty 

15 you want to be looking at your defense as a 

16 two-part defense, in my opinion. And so when 

17 you're preparing for trial you want to prepare 

18 material on both parts of the trial based on 

19 whatever it is that you dispute. 

20 I've had people come to trial 

21 before and say things like it's too much money 

22 and I'm not going to tell you anything about 

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1 my finances because it's none of your 

2 business. Fair enough. But that doesn't help 

3 them challenge the proposed penalty. 

4 I've had people say well, the 

5 allegation didn't exist and even if it did the 

6 FAA doesn't have enough evidence to prove it 

7 beyond a reasonable doubt. 

8 Well, that may be true but the 

9 standard of proof in these kinds of cases is 

10 not beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the 

11 standard for criminal cases only. 

12 The standard for proof in these 

13 cases is by a preponderance of the evidence, 

14 which is considered to be the lowest standard 

15 to meet in trial. 

16 The preponderance of the evidence 

17 standard is if you're looking at a weight 

18 scale and the weights are evenly balanced 50-

19 50, well, that hasn't met a preponderance of 

20 the evidence standard. 

21 But if you add five pounds to one 

22 side and take out five pounds from the other 

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1 so that you have a 55-45 weight scale with one 

2 scale higher than the other, that would be a 

3 preponderance of the evidence standard. 

4 There are other standards for 

5 different types of trial cases. The highest 

6 standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. If we 

7 use the same weight scale beyond a reasonable 

8 doubt standard is much higher than a 55-45 

9 split. I would say you're 

10 looking more at an 80-20 or even higher split 

11 for a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. 

12 Some people would even say it's a 95 to 5 but 

13 I think that's perhaps stretching it a little 

14 bit. 

15 The weight scale isn't quite 

16 accurate in reflecting how we look at 

17 evidentiary standards but it gives you some 

18 visualization, I think, that's important to 

19 have especially since we're on the telephone 

20 and we're not seeing each other face to face. 

21 Mr. Honeycutt, does that make 

22 sense to you what we just talked about? 

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1 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. It 

2 does. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have other 

4 questions or anything else that I can address 

5 for you before I see you potentially in two 

6 months? 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: The only question 

8 I would have and maybe Mr. Vines can answer it 

9 through you is I requested the complete file 

10 and the file that I got has got redacted 

11 information on inspector's notes - personal 

12 notes and I'd like to have- and I thought I 

13 sent this to him - the nonredacted part of it. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

15 MR. HONEYCUTT : And if it is 

16 redacted, why and what statute -

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So in - it 

18 sounds like you requested in discovery a file 

19 of which inspector or are there more than one? 

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, all the - of 

21 all the inspectors in the case on the aviation 

22 side - Inspector Schaefer, Inspector Donahue, 

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1 Inspector Kahler and anyone else that was 

2 involved in the case from the Tampa field 

3 office. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Other than 

5 Inspector Schaefer and Inspector Donahue do 

6 you have the names of anyone else? 

7 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm not sure of 

8 the inspector - there was an inspector in 

9 Illinois. I don't have it right in front of 

10 me. I can get it from Mr. Vines. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And what 

12 information or what types of redactions did 

13 you see in the material that was sent to you? 

14 MR. HONEYCUTT: Just for example, 

15 I have - I'm going to pull this file here. 

16 I'm getting it out - this is a statement of 

17 case. It doesn't give me who the inspector is 

18 doing this. There is a case number at the 

19 bottom but it doesn't have - it doesn't have 

2 0 the inspector's name. There's quite a bit of 

21 information redacted from it. 

22 

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1 looking at a certain page what type of 

2 redaction occurred? 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yeah. The 

4 paragraph- if you'll bear with me, on May 

5 3rd, 2009 during the conversation between Mr. 

6 Honeycutt and Captain Plas they decided that 

7 any damage was minimal. 

8 Mr. Honeycutt deferred to Captain 

9 Plas' judgment of severity of damage to 

10 determine if the flight should continue or 

11 not. The damage was noted in Captain Plas' 

12 statement as only bent tins. 

13 Captain Plas, with Mr. Honeycutt's 

14 correspondence, decided to continue with the 

15 trip. Then it has a parentheses IOP-7. And 

16 then there's several sentences redacted - goes 

17 on into the next paragraph and there's 

18 redaction in that as well. 

19 So the inspector, I guess, writing 

20 this report that information, like I said, 

21 that's redacted is quite a bit. 

22 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

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1 know the date of the report? You said, I 

2 think, May 3rd, 2013 or is that -

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: That was the 

4 incident date that they were referring to. 

5 This is - at the top it has Section B 2009 

6 S0150216. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: And it starts with 

9 number one, statement of case. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: So it's the 

12 southern- I'm assuming that's a file number 

13 for the -

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Southern region. 

15 Mr. Vines, why don't I turn to you? Do you 

16 have any information about this? 

17 MR. VINES: Judge, it 1 s our policy 

18 when we issue a notice of proposed civil 

19 penalty that if the Respondent or the agency 

20 or the airmen request a copy of our 

21 enforcement investigative report that we 

22 release that to them. 

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1 Normally, we follow the FOIA 

2 regulations, Freedom of Information Act. But 

3 because of the situation in which we are in 

4 with the - an individual or agency in which 

5 we're proposing to issue a civil penalty we go 

6 ahead and without a FOIA request - official 

7 FOIA request from the Respondent we go ahead 

8 and issue redacted portions of the EIR and 

9 redactions are made according to the FOIA 

10 regulations and those include, without 

11 reciting verbatim, that the agency is allowed 

12 to redact work product and opinions of 

13 inspectors, and of the agency, and the 

14 redactions that have been made by the agency 

15 are in accord with those FOIA regulations 

16 which allow us to redact certain statements. 

17 And, again, I would assert that 

18 the redactions that Mr. Honeycutt is referring 

19 to are redactions that deal with deliberative 

20 process - statements of deliberate process or 

21 statement of opinion. 

22 

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1 there's a couple problems with that. For one, 

2 this is not a public FOIA request. You're in 

3 litigation. So the question is are you going 

4 to be using or asking any of these individuals 

5 to offer opinions while they testify? 

6 MR. VINES: And, again well, 

7 first, before we get there I don't have any 

8 formal requests that any of that information 

9 be released. 

10 But assuming that this is a request for 

11 that information, again, it's - I would have 

12 to go back and reference what has been 

13 redacted versus what information I anticipate 

14 to elicit from my witnesses, Judge. 

15 So in all honesty I can't 

16 specifically say, you know, what information 

17 has been redacted will be information that I 

18 solicit from the - my witnesses. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that - you 

20 know, that - that's helpful to know and yet at 

21 the same time I've heard from Mr. Vines that 

22 he requested the complete file of all the 

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1 investigator's work that's relevant to this 

2 case. Are you saying that there is no request 

3 that you ever received? 

4 MR. VINES: I don't recall. I 

5 recall a request by Mr. Honeycutt for the EIR 

6 - a copy of the EIR, Judge, and this was prior 

7 to any litigation being in mind by - and by 

8 that I mean prior to the final notice having 

9 been issued. 

10 And if you will give me one 

11 moment, Judge, I can pull the requests that 

12 came from Mr. Honeycutt regarding the release 

13 of that information. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

15 MR. HONEYCUTT : Your Honor, I 

16 don't mean to interrupt but as you - as you 

17 stated this is litigation. Should I have to 

18 supply a freedom of information request in the 

19 litigation when I want a complete file and I 

20 think -

21 

22 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. 

MR. HONEYCUTT: - speaking from -

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can I interrupt 

2 you? The answer is no, clearly you do not. 

3 But you do have to make discovery requests and 

4 from what Mr. Vines has told me you didn't. 

5 And so we have a little bit of a problem that 

6 I'm going to see if I can fix. 

7 MR. VINES: Judge, at one point 

8 during this proceeding after the issue of a 

9 notice of proposed civil penalty I received a 

10 letter from an attorney by the name of Gregory 

11 S. Winton dated May 23rd of 2011 in which Mr. 

12 Winton notified the agency that he is 

13 representing Worldwide Aircraft Services and 

14 that he would like to participate in an 

15 informal conference as well as for the agency 

16 to provide a copy of the court releasable 

17 portions of the enforcement investigative 

18 report, end quotes. 

19 Subsequent to that I did supply 

20 that information. In addition, Mr. Winton, 

21 the attorney, did I believe withdraw from the 

22 hearing or withdraw from representing Mr. 

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1 Honeycutt and his company. 

2 I issued a copy of the releasable 

3 portions in the enforcement investigative 

4 report on June 22nd of 2011. I have a letter 

5 referencing that and with my knowledge and 

6 again, if Mr. Honeycutt could tell me 

7 otherwise, I did not receive any discovery 

8 request from he or his company regarding the 

9 litigation. 

10 The only request I have is from 

11 Mr. - excuse me, from the Worldwide attorney 

12 who was representing Worldwide at the time for 

13 a request of a copy of the releasable portions 

14 of the enforcement investigative report. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

16 Honeycutt, let me turn to you. Are you 

17 basically referencing in your complaint today 

18 material that has been redacted that Mr. 

19 Winton obtained for you in May 2011? 

20 MR. HONEYCUTT: That information 

21 is correct in the fact that I'm referencing 

22 the investigative file. I also - and that I 

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1 thought on the phone with Mr. Vines - and 

2 I'll have to go back through my emails and my 

3 responses to the interrogatories and discovery 

4 from Mr. Vines where I specifically asked for 

5 a complete file that did not have any 

6 redaction in it. 

7 I think the inspectors' opinions 

8 and - which is what I will want to discuss at 

9 trial is very relevant to this case. I mean, 

10 a decision to, you know, put a violation 

11 against my certificate and charge a fine was 

12 based off inspectors' and investigators' 

13 decision. 

14 I'm assuming it was - I don't know 

15 who makes the decision on the fine, if it's 

16 the attorney's office or if it's the 

17 inspector, but I think I'm entitled to their 

18 full complete file. 

19 I mean, I even asked for the 

20 transcript of the anonymous 1-800 complaint 

21 that initiated this investigation and that's 

22 information -

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, one thing -

2 MR. HONEYCUTT : recorded or 

3 transcript out from a phone line or a personal 

4 note. I'm sorry. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let me interrupt 

6 you. So I think there are two different 

7 things I'm asking you and so let's start with 

8 the first. 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: In the material 

11 that you have before you where there have been 

12 redactions is that material the documentation 

13 that Mr. Winton got for you based on a May 

14 2011 letter he sent to the FAA? 

15 MR . HONEYCUTT : Yes, ma'am. I 

16 believe it is what was sent to me from Mr. 

17 Winton. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And then 

19 in your own request you say you made in 

20 discovery after June 6th, 2013 can you tell me 

21 if those were parts of your answers to a 

22 discovery request sent to you by Mr. Vines or 

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1 if you made separate discovery requests 

2 independent of answering questions that Mr. 

3 Vines asked you? 

4 MR. HONEYCUTT: I made a separate 

5 request and the date I don't have exactly in 

6 front of me and the response, I believe, I got 

7 from Mr. Vines, to the best of my memory, is 

8 the file - the complete file was sent to me -

9 the complete EIN file was sent to me and 

10 that's not what I requested. I did request a 

11 complete file without the redactions. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: I'll go back 

14 through each email and each response and find 

15 that. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you - do you 

17 remember when that happened? 

18 MR. HONEYCUTT : I don't have a 

19 time and date, your Honor. I know - I just -

20 I know that I wanted a complete file and I 

21 brought that up and I believe Mr. Vines said 

22 that the file had been sent to me in one of 

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1 the letters - one of our correspondences. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. What you 

3 have, Mr. Honeycutt, is a discovery dispute 

4 and if you look at the June 6th, 2013 order 

5 setting litigation dates and procedures 

6 there's a specific section on what to do if 

7 you have a discovery dispute, and that section 

8 is on Page 3 of the four-page order. 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. Which 

10 letter would that be? 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: It would be 

12 letter D as in David. 

13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. Okay. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And it talks 

15 about how if you have disputes about 

16 discovery and you want to move to force it -

17 to compel discovery, which is a motion to 

18 force the opposing side to give you more than 

19 what they've given to date, you file it as 

20 soon as possible or no later than 10 days 

21 after you receive the deficient discovery 

22 response. 

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1 So all of the discovery, as you 

2 can see in this litigation order, was supposed 

3 to be completed by September 30, 2013 which 

4 was three plus some odd days - three months 

5 and some days ago. 

6 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So this dispute 

8 is very late in coming to my attention. What 

9 I'm going to ask you to do is to look through 

10 all of your papers and to find a copy of when 

11 you made that separate request to the FAA for 

12 the complete file and the response you got 

13 should also be included and I'm going to ask 

14 you to send that to me and a copy to Mr. Vines 

15 and I would like to have that no later than 

16 next Thursday- January 16, 2014. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then what I'm 

19 going to do is I'm going to set up another 

20 telephone conference so that we can try and 

21 resolve this as quickly as possible and I'm 

22 going to look at my calendar to do that, and 

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1 it looks like I've been timed out so I need to 

2 log in again. 

3 Okay. I'm logged back into my 

4 calendar. Why don't we plan on - why don't we 

5 plan on Thursday, January 23rd? 

6 MR. VINES: Judge, I will be out 

7 of the country on the 22nd to the 24th. I'll 

8 be in the office the 21st and the week 

9 thereafter. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I will be in 

11 a trial the week of the 27th. I will not be 

12 in the office the 20th or the 21st. So let's 

13 see what else we can do. 

14 How about - I should be back in 

15 the office the 31st of January. Mr. Vines, if 

16 I recall you were available that week. 

17 MR. VINES: January 31st? 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. 

19 MR. VINES: Judge, I'm available. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

21 Honeycutt, are you available on January 31st? 

22 

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MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, I am. 

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1 available. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 

3 we do this? Why don't we plan on a 10:30 a.m. 

4 telephone conference on January 31, 2014 

5 regarding this discovery issue? 

6 I'm looking at my calendar- the 

7 16th. Mr. Vines, why don't you file a 

8 response to Mr. Honeycutt's motion for 

9 discovery if the two of you can't resolve this 

10 informally on or before - can you have it 

11 filed by the 28th of January? 

12 MR. VINES: If I get it the day of 

13 the 16th I'll have the following day and then 

14 the 21st to work on it and you're asking me to 

15 file my response on the 28th. Is that 

16 correct? 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Right. 

18 MR. VINES: Yes, that's fine. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. So 

20 just to be clear, I'm going to go through 

21 these dates and I'll send out an order after 

22 we conclude. 

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1 In terms of the motion in limine 

2 regarding the admissions the FAA is going to 

3 file a motion on or before January 9th, 2014. 

4 The Respondent's objections are due on or 

5 before January 23rd, 2014. 

6 In terms of the Respondent's 

7 motion for to compel discovery, the 

8 Respondent's motion is due on or before 

9 January 16th, 2014. The FAA's reply is due on 

10 or before January 28th, 2014. We will 

11 reconvene on January 31, 2014 at 10:30 a.m. 

12 Now, in terms of discovery, 

13 discovery is very broad in nature and it 

14 encompasses anything that could be relevant to 

15 either side in terms of proving or disproving 

16 the allegations. 

17 In addition, the parties should be 

18 disclosing the opinions and the bases for 

19 opinions of any and all experts that are going 

20 to be called or that potentially could be 

21 called. 

22 

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So, Mr. Vines, I'm going to ask 

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1 you to be sure and take a second look at 

2 whatever materials Mr. Winton was provided ln 

3 May 2011 prior to this case being filed. 

4 It may or may not be subject to 

5 litigation discovery, which is completely 

6 different, in this Court 1 s opinion, from a 

7 general FOIA request and I understand that in 

8 a FOIA request you would be interested ln 

9 limiting certain work product and employee 

10 opinions. 

11 That limitation, however, in my 

12 opinion, does not easily or often equally 

13 translate into what is or is not discoverable 

14 in litigation. 

15 So there are things in litigation 

16 that are discoverable that may not be covered 

17 under your agency 1 s internal FOIA request 

18 response policy. 

19 So if there are opinions by an 

20 expert that relate specifically to this case 

21 and there has been a request for those 

22 opinions and such opinions might be helpful 

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1 either to the proof of the case or the 

2 disproof of the case those are discoverable 

3 and should be offered. 

4 I would agree with you that 

5 certain work product is privileged but you 

6 have to make a case for that typically in 

7 litigation. 

8 So you may find that there are 

9 some things that you can provide without going 

10 through a formal motion, and then we're going 

11 to be looking at this again on January 31st, 

12 2014 based on whatever the parties have not 

13 yet agreed to or come to a reasoned 

14 understanding about. 

15 MR. VINES: Judge, I thank you for 

16 that and I respect that. I, at this point, 

17 would just like to wait and provide my 

18 response to Worldwide's motion, I guess, to 

19 compel discovery. I'd like - again, as you 

20 noted earlier there was a period for 

21 discovery. 

22 That period has obviously ended. 

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1 My recollection of my notes and my documents 

2 I don't recall or see any documentation in 

3 which Worldwide has specifically requested 

4 anything at all during the discovery process. 

5 So that would likely be my primary 

6 objection to having to compel any further -

7 you know, supply any further additional 

8 information that Worldwide may request. 

9 Nonetheless, I may be overlooking something 

10 that Worldwide can provide to show that I did 

11 receive such requests. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That's -

13 MR. VINES: But, again, I'll hold 

14 off on that until I actually receive - excuse 

15 me, Worldwide's motion. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. Well, I 

17 appreciate that and that's certainly your 

18 right and privilege as an advocate. So, Mr. 

19 Honeycutt, essentially what Mr. Vines is 

20 saying is that you have to - you have to show 

21 proof first and foremost that you made that 

22 request and you- I'm giving you a chance to 

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1 do that and you need to file it on or before 

2 January 16th, 2014. 

3 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: May I ask a 

6 question on -

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 

8 MR. HONEYCUTT: - Mr. Vines as to 

9 what is the investigators and inspectors? Are 

10 they considered experts? 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, the answer, 

12 Mr. Honeycutt, lS that typically an 

13 investigator can be identified and qualified 

14 as an expert. So most often when 

15 investigators or inspectors are called to the 

16 witness stand they are qualified as experts 

17 because the Court or the party who calls them 

18 wants the Court to rely upon their expertise. 

19 If they're not called as experts 

20 then their testimony is taken as a member of 

21 the public with no particular expertise. And 

22 so the way that the Court considers and 

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1 weights evidence is different for people who 

2 are testifying based on their own personal 

3 knowledge versus people who are qualified as 

4 experts. 

5 It generally behooves the 

6 litigants to have an expert because the expert 

7 can form opinions without having any kind of 

8 personal knowledge about facts that are in 

9 dispute, and I don't know that I need to get 

10 into that any more than that. 

11 The answer to your question is 

12 typically an investigator or inspector is 

13 qualified as an expert. Mr. Honeycutt, any 

14 0ther questions before we close? 

15 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, the - your 

16 Honor, the way maybe to resolve the issue is 

17 if each individual inspector is going to be 

18 considered an expert then going into the 

19 February 7th list of witnesses, the exchange 

20 in exhibits do, in that you reference 

21 documents the parties intend to offer in 

22 evidence 

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and I'm assuming that 

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1 investigative notes and everything would be 

2 entered and therefore that would -

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that's a 

4 false assumption. 

5 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, I would -

6 okay. Yes, ma'am. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That's a false 

8 assumption. You cannot presume that your 

9 friend across the aisle is going to do any 

10 such thing. 

11 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, they're 

12 listed on my- I'm sorry, your Honor. I don't 

13 mean to interrupt you. I apologize. 

14 I have them listed as witnesses 

15 that I'm- well, he listed them as witnesses 

16 that he was going to call. Therefore, I -

17 we're going to use them as witnesses as well. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that's 

19 another assumption, Mr. Honeycutt. You have 

20 the ability as an advocate to cross examine 

21 any witness that the FAA presents on its own 

22 case in chief. 

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1 Once the FAA presents its own 

2 witness to its satisfaction and it rests its 

3 case in chief the FAA can excuse all of its 

4 witnesses and they can go home. 

5 So unless you reach an agreement 

6 with Mr. Vines that they are going to keep 

7 their witnesses available to you for you to 

8 use in your defense's presentation, you can't 

9 make the assumption that they're going to sit 

10 around and wait so that you can call them as 

11 your own witnesses nor can you make the 

12 assumption that they will have valuable things 

13 to say on your behalf. 

14 So there are certain ways that you 

15 can utilize an opponent's witnesses to bring 

16 out information for you in cross examination. 

17 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But that doesn't 

19 mean that you can assume that the witnesses 

20 will hang around town or hang around the 

21 courthouse and wait until you decide to call 

22 them as your own witness. 

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1 So you may want to rethink some of 

2 these assumptions that you're making. In 

3 addition, just because someone wrote a report 

4 as an agency employee doesn't mean that 

5 they're going to ask for that report to be 

6 admitted into evidence. 

7 In fact, many people who advocate 

8 in trial prefer not to have the report 

9 admitted into evidence at all. What they 

10 prefer is to have the witness selectively 

11 testify about things without admitting the 

12 report into evidence. 

13 So I often will have a witness 

14 testify before me and I never see the report. 

15 It never is admitted. Sometimes the witness 

16 wants to have the report admitted and there's 

17 a motion to admit, which is either objected to 

18 or agreed to. So sometimes I do see the 

19 report. 

20 But I would not encourage you to 

21 assume that just because someone is listed as 

22 a witness that their report will follow them 

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1 to the courthouse and get admitted. 

2 So if you have an email as you 

3 have said stating that you sent to Mr. Vines 

4 specifically requesting, you know, disclosure 

5 of the complete report and get that out and 

6 provide that as well as Mr. Vines' response on 

7 or before January 16, 2014 and if you don't 

8 want to pursue that particular motion, you 

9 know, after thinking about it or after looking 

10 through your file that's your decision as 

11 well. 

12 So it would be helpful, since 

13 we've set up these dates for you, that if you 

14 decide not to pursue the motion, just to send 

15 a letter or a note filed with my file and then 

16 CC' d to Mr. Vines and the hearing docket clerk 

17 that you are not pursuing the motion and we'll 

18 just let that go. 

19 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. I will 

21 retain the January 31, 2014 conference on my 

22 calendar no matter what. I think it might be 

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1 very helpful to do that, given some of the 

2 discussion we've had here today, and I'll also 

3 ask the parties if you would be so kind as to 

4 address any settlement discussion if you can 

5 prior to January 31, 2014 just so that if 

6 there's a further narrowing of the issues I'll 

7 be totally apprised. 

8 And then in the meantime, I will 

9 ask my staff to start looking for a courthouse 

10 in Tampa, Florida before our March 2014 dates. 

11 With that, Mr. Vines, once again, anything 

12 else that we need to address on behalf of your 

13 client today? 

14 MR. VINES: Judge, one 

15 clarification - question of clarification. 

16 You asked - I agreed to submit my motion in 

17 limine by January 9th. What is the date for 

18 the Respondent to file any response to that 

19 motion in limine? 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The current date 

21 is January 23rd, 2014. 

22 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And I will 

2 again, I will send out a written order 

3 codifying all of this so that you have it in 

4 writing. 

5 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 

7 Mr. Honeycutt, anything further that the Court 

8 can do for your client before we close today? 

9 MR. HONEYCUTT: No, ma'am. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then I 

11 thank you all very much for your presence 

12 today. It appears our business for now is 

13 complete. 

14 We can go off the record and I 

15 wish you all a good day. Thank you very much. 

16 MR. HONEYCUTT: Thank you, Judge. 

17 MR. VINES: Judge -

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

20 conference concluded at 11:54 a.m.) 

21 

22 

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quick30:13 reference 26:4 48:13,22 49:12 

quickest 13:22 46:12 62:20 request 5:22 6:16 

quickly 29:19 referencing 49:5,17 6:20 21:20 22:16 

54:21 49:21 29: 11,17,21 30:2 

quite40:15 42:20 referring 44:4 30:8 44:20 45:6,7 

43:21 45:18 46:2,10 47:2,5,18 

quotes48:18 reflecting 40: 16 49:8,10,13 51:19 -- regarding 22:6 51:22 52:5,10 R 47:12 49:8 56:5 54:1158:7,8,17 R3:1 57:2 58:21 60:8,22 reach 64:5 region 2:4 44:14 requested 5:19 

reading 15:5 37:7 Regional2:4 41:9,18 46:22 

ready 27:13 regular 18: 19,20 52:10 60:3 

reality 7:21 regulations 29:18 requesting 33:20 

really 29:19 29:20 37:7 45:2 33:21 66:4 

reason 4:8 5:3 17:8 

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202-234-4433 

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requests30:17 

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required 38:12 

reschedule 4:18 

Rescue2:15 

reserve 27:9 

resolve 17:5 54:21 

56:9 62:16 

respect 59:16 

respond 30:17 

responded 5 :21 

Respondent I: II 

2:9 3:14 4:7 13:19 

21:20 22:1 44:19 

45:7 67:18 

Respondent's 6:15 

57:4,6,8 

responding I 7: 13 

response 24:3 52:6 

52:14 53:22 54:12 

56:8,15 58:18 

59:18 66:6 67:18 

responses 6:15 

11:19 50:3 

restroom 28:8 

rests 64:2 

result 16:19 25:3 

resume 25:20 36:6 

retain 66:21 

rethink 6 5: I 

right21:5 32:10 

42:9 56:17 60:18 

Robin2:12 3:15 

Roman 18:18 31:20 

31:21,22 32:8 

room 15:8 16:22 

23:22 

rule 30:18 

s -----

s 3:148:11 

satisfaction 64:2 

save26:6 

saying 10:13 15:5 

25:11 26:14 47:2 

60:20 
says 11:16 34:9 

scale 39:18 40:1,2,7 

40:15 

Schaefer 41 :22 

42:5 

schedule 28:12 

scheduled 3:10 4:1 

4:13 16:2 

scheduling 3:20 

scope 11:9 24:21 

se7:20 10:7,9,14,21 

11:22 12:3,12 

34:15 

second 9:17 37:3 

58:1 

section 30:5 44:5 

53:6,7 

security 28:13 

see20:16 24:9 30:4 

30:5,18 41:5 

42:13 48:6 54:2 

55:13 60:2 65:14 

65:18 

seeing 40:20 

selectively 65: I 0 

send 17:11 28:17 

29:16 30:1 54:14 

56:21 66:14 68:2 

sending 27:5 

sense 9:15 13:3 

18:5 40:22 

sent 17:12 41:13 

42:13 51:14,16,22 

52:8,9,22 66:3 

sentences 43:16 

separate38:1152:1 

52:4 54:11 

September 54:3 

serve25:16 30:13 

36:3 

served4:4 

Services I: I 0 2:13 

3:5,1410:22 

31:14 48:13 

set 54:19 66:13 

setting 4:3 16:7 

26:11 35:17 53:5 

settle 16:1917:16 staff67:9 18:2,16 19:4,10 

27:13 stand 61:16 19:13,16,22 20:7 

settlement 5:16,17 standard 39:9, II 20:15 21:1,3,6,13 

6:1 16:20 17:1,21 39:12,14,17,20 21:18 22:10,21 

29:1 67:4 40:3,6,8, II 23:3,12,17 24:6 

seven 16:9 standards 40:4,17 24:20 25:14 29:14 

severity 43:9 standpoint 22:4 30:10 31:4,8,12 

sheet 26: I ,2 start28:1151:7 32:2,7, 11,17 33:2 

short25:17 28:6 67:9 33:8 35:3,16 36:2 

36:5 starting 34:6 41:3,14,17 42:4 

show 60:10,20 starts 44:8 42:11,22 43:22 

side 9: II 39:22 state 8:12 44:7, I 0,14 45:22 

41:22 53:18 57:15 stated 47:17 46:19 47:14,21 

sign 30:7 statement 25: II, 18 48:1 49:15 51:1,5 

signed 20:8 36:6 42:16 43:12 51:10,18 52:12,16 

simple II: II 44:9 45:21 53:2,11,14 54:7 

simply7:22 15:22 statements 45:16 54:18 55:10,18,20 

22:22 25:10 27:21 45:20 56:2,17,19 60:12 

29:16 STATES 1:1 60:16 61:4,7,11 

sir 18:9 stating 66:3 63:3,7,18 64:18 

sit 64:9 status5:9 27:17 66:20 67:20 68:1 

situation 45:3 statute41:16 68:6,10,18 

six 19:9 20:19 21:4 stay 15:17 summary 5:8 6:20 

33:4 35:7 stepped 15:9 supply47:18 48:19 

slight 26: 14 steps 38:11 60:7 

smaller 25:2,5 stipulated 8:6 9:11 support37:16,21 

S0150216 44:6 stipulations 6:22 supports 38:4 

solicit 46: 18 8:9 26:22 supposed 54:2 

soon 23:4 53:20 streamlined 30:14 sure 10:1,2 21:18 

sooner 30:19,22 stretching 40:13 23:624:1127:14 

sophistication 9:7 subject 58:4 27:18 34:16 42:7 

10:10,16 submit30:1167:16 58:1 61:7 

sorry 19:18 51:4 subpoena 29:13 

63:12 30:7 T -------

sounds 7:6,10 35:4 subpoenas29:12 take 8:15 20:16 

41:18 29:15 30:22 22:12 26:9,18 

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44:14 Subsequent48:19 36:15 39:22 58:1 

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speaking 47:22 suggest 8: I 0 takes 23:21 26:19 

specific 53:6 Sullivan 1:19 3:3 talk 17:9 29:3 32:4 

specifically 9:11 4:20 5:2 6:7,11 talked 36:21 37:6 

22:22 46:16 50:4 7:2,10,18 10:6,9 40:22 

58:20 60:3 66:4 11:5 13:5,14 14:1 talking 17:2118:20 

spend 25:4 14:4,11,12,13,18 22:12 

spending 12:4 15:2,7,11,16,21 talks26:13 53:14 

split 40:9, I 0 16:5,1117:7,17 Tampa 27:6 28: I 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 75 

42:2 67:10 

Teleconference 

1:15 

telephone 3: 18 

40:19 54:20 56:4 

tell5:9 6:1218:3,12 

38:22 42:22 49:6 

51:20 

telling4:12 16:14 

terms 13:2,5 30:19 

57:1,6,12,15 

testify 46:5 65:11 

65:14 

testifying 62:2 

testimonial 7:5 

8:21 38:3 

testimony 25:18 

36:6 61:20 

texted 4:15 

thauk5:5 16:11 

19:4 30:9 31:7 

59:15 67:22 68:5 

68:11,15,16 

thing28:9 37:14 

51:163:10 

things 8:4 9:2 25:12 

38:5,2151:7 

58:15 59:9 64:12 

65:11 

think 11:2 12:7 

13:21 23:5 31:1 

34:2 35:12 36:21 

37:8 40:13,18 

44:2 45:22 47:20 

50:7,17 51:6 

66:22 

thinking 12:16 66:9 

third 25:6 36:16 

thought 17:12,14 

19:19 41:12 50:1 

three 18:15,15,17 

18:19,2119:2 

20:19,22 26:8,20 

26:21 31:3 32:1 

32:19,21 35:6 

36:14 54:4,4 

three-page 19:5 
33:17 

Thursday 23:11,12 

23:13,14,15 54:16 

55:5 

time3:21,2212:14 

20:13 25:4 27:10 

28:13,18 30:19 

46:21 49:12 52:19 

timed 55:1 

times 19:1 28:2 

32:15 

tins 43:12 

today 3:7,18 9:6 

29:6 31:16 35:4 

49:17 67:2,13 

68:8,12 

Today's 3:22 

told 16:17,18 48:4 

tomorrow 23:16 

34:14,21 

top 44:5 

totally 6 7:7 

town64:20 

transcript 50:20 

51:3 

translate 58: 13 

TRANSPORT A ... 

1:2 

triable 12: I 

trial5:11 8:7,14 

11:10,21 12:2,4 

12:14,15 16:16 

17:2,6,22 18:6 

24:21 25:6 26:7,7 

26:21 27:7,15,18 

27:21 29:9 33:22 

34:6 36:13 37:1,3 

38:6,8, 17,18,20 

39:15 40:5 50:9 

55:1165:8 

trials 36:21 38:7 

trip43:15 

true24:15,16 37:2 

39:8 

truth20:18 

try4:18 5:1515:10 

28:18 54:20 

trying 12:20 23:8 

turn 5:6 31:9 44:15 

49:16 

two 18:14,15,17,19 

18:21 19:1 20:19 

20:21 26:9,15,18 

30:20,2131:19,22 

32:9 35:5 36:15 

36:20 38:10 41:5 

51:6 56:9 

two-part38:16 

two-step 38:8 

type 11:12 43:1 

types 40:5 42:12 

typically 28:10,14 

29:15 59:6 61:12 

62:12 

u 

understand 7:20 

8:3 10:1,2,1111:7 

12:19 24:12,19 

58:7 

understanding 

9:18 59:14 

undisputed 9:14 

34:13 

unequivocal11 :7 

unequivocally 

10:20 

UNITED 1:1 

upset 12:15 

use 26:3 28:8 40:7 

63:17 64:8 

utilize64:15 

v 

v 1:9 

valuable 64:12 

verbatim 45:11 

versus 46:13 62:3 

view 6:2 

Vines 2:3 3:13 5:6 

5:12 6:9,14 7:8,17 

9:1610:811:4 

13:4,10,1614:2,8 

15:5 16:13,14,17 

17:9,1218:3,7,11 

18:14,22 19:8,11 

19:14,15,18 20:9 

20:17 21:9,16,19 

22:20 23:2,4,9,15 

24:9 25:10 28:21 

29:7,8 30:9 31:2,7 

31:9,1132:11,19 

33:4,9,19 34:7 

35:5,9 36:3,11,18 

41:8 42:10 44:15 

44:17 46:6,21 

47:4 48:4,7 50:1,4 

51:22 52:3,7,21 

54:14 55:6,15,17 

55:19 56:7,12,18 

57:22 59:15 60:13 

60:19 61:8 64:6 

66:3,6,16 67:11 

67:14,22 68:5,17 

violation 50:10 

visualization 40:18 

w 

wait27:8,11,16 

59:17 64:10,21 

walked 14:15 

want8:1112:14 

15:17 16:18 20:15 

22:13 24:11 25:20 

26:8 31:17 38:15 

38:17 47:19 50:8 

53:16 65:1 66:8 

wanted 5:15,16 6:3 

52:20 

wants61:18 65:16 

way2:15 8:19 11:3 

11:5 12:3 13:22 

29:22 61:22 62:16 

ways 37:5 64: 14 

we'll23:7 66:17 

we're3:3 10:14 

14:9 16:12 32:15 

40:19,20 45:5 

59:10 63:17 

we've33:9 35:3 

66:13 67:2 

Web37:8 

Wednesday 1 : 13 

3:7 

week 11:14,14 55:8 

55:11,16 

weight39:17 40:1,7 

40:15 

weights 39:18 62:1 

welcome 17:20 

25:10 31:8 68:6 

went22:5 

William 2:3 3:13 

Winton 48:11,12 

48:20 49:19 51:13 

51:17 58:2 

wish 68:15 

withdraw 48:21,22 

witness25:19 35:21 

36:5 61:16 63:21 

64:2,22 65:10,13 

65:15,22 

witnesses 25:17,19 

35:11 36:4 46:14 

46:18 62:19 63:14 

63:15,17 64:4,7 

64:11,15,19 

work45:12 47:1 

56:14 58:9 59:5 

working7:19 16:8 

20:4 

works 30:18 

Worldwide I : 1 0 

2:13 3:4,14 10:21 

31:13 32:15 48:13 

49:11,12 60:3,8 

60:10 

Worldwide's 59:18 

60:15 

wouldn't 5:4 

writing 4:2 8:4 34:5 

43:19 68:4 

written 8:9 11:6 

16:6 21:8 68:2 

wrote 65:3 

X 

y 

Yeah 7:10 11:5 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 76 

30:10 43:3 60:16 

66:20 

----

z 

0 

1 

114:5 20:19,22 

31:19 32:7,18,21 

35:6 

1-800 50:20 

10 28:6 35:20 53:20 

10:30 1:16 56:3 

57:11 

10:38 3:2 

10:50 14:19 

11:15 4:17 

11:304:17 

11:54 68:20 

13.228 30:5 

14 30:5 

15 28:7 

15-minute 28:5 

16 54:16 66:7 

16th 56:7,13 57:9 

61:2 

2 

2 14:5 19:5 20:20 

21:4 33:2 35:7,16 

20 20:9 

200919:3 43:5 44:5 

201148:11 49:4,19 

51:14 58:3 

2013 3:11,19 4:3 

16: I ,6 20:9 26:11 

35:19 36:22 37:7 

44:2 51:20 53:4 

54:3 

2013-0045 3:6 

20141:14 3:8 8:8 

12:117:221:15 

23:18 24:4 25:15 

27:3,4,22 28:1 

29:434:1135:1 

35:20 36:12,13,19 

54:16 56:4 57:3,5 
57:9,10,1159:12 

61:2 66:7,21 67:5 

67:10,21 

20636 2:5 

20th 55:12 

21 8:8 27:4 

21st 55:8,12 56:14 

22nd 21:14 49:4 

55:7 

23rd 24:4 35:1 

48:11 55:5 57:5 

67:21 

24th 55:7 

25612:15 

27th55:11 

28th 56:11,15 57:10 

3 --------

314:619:14,14,17 

19:20,21 26:12 

53:8 

30 54:3 

30320 2:6 

305-5200 2:6 

3156:4 57:11 66:21 

67:5 

31st 55:15,17,21 

59:11 

34604 2:16 

352 2:17 

3rd 19:3 43:5 44:2 

4 

404 2:6 

5 

536:13 40:12 

5:00 28:3 

50 39:18,19 

55-45 40:1,8 

5th 27:22 29:4 

------" 6 ~~---- -~--

6th 3:11,19 4:2 

16:1,6 26:11 28:1 

35:19 36:22 51:20 

53:4 

7 

7 35:20 36:12,19 

796-2540 2:17 

7th 25:15 62:19 

----~- -~ --~~-~ 

8 

8 1:14 

8:00 28:15 

8:30 28:15 

80-20 40: I 0 

8th 3:7 

9:00 28:2 

9:15 4:12 

95 40:12 

9 

9th 23:18 27:2 

34:11 57:3 67:17 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

202-234-4433 

Page 77 
78 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Worldwide Aircraft Services 

Before: DOT/FAA 

Date: 01-08-14 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 vvww.nealrgross.com