1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

# RECElVE

IN THE MATTER OF: 

### JAN 

## 232014 

## HEARING DOCK T FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, Complainant,

v. FDMS No. FAA-2013-0045 WORLDWIDE AIRCRAFT SERVICES, INC. , Respondent.

Wednesday, January 8, 2014 Via Teleconference The above-entitled matter came on, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m.
BEFORE:

(202) 234-4433 THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN, Administrative Law Judge

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### APPEARANCES:

On Behalf of the Complainant: WILLIAM P. VINES, ESQ. Office of the Regional Counsel Southern Region Federal Aviation Administration P.O. Box 20636 Atlanta, GA 30320

(404) 305-5200

On Behalf of the Respondent:

(202) 234-4433 

### MICHAEL A. HONEYCUTT, President ROBIN LEVIJA Worldwide Aircraft Services, Inc., c

### I0 

### JET I.

## c .u. 2561 Rescue Way Brooksville, FL 34604 (352) 796-2540

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1 

### P R 0 C E E D I N G S 2 10:38 a.m. 3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We 1re on the 4 record in the matter of Worldwide Aircraft 5 Services, Inc. This is Docket Number FAA6 2013-0045. 7 Today is Wednesday, January 8th, 8 2014 and the parties have appeared for a 9 prehearinglitigationconferencethat has been 10 scheduledon the parties 1 calendars since June 11 6th, 2013. 12 The FAA is represented by its 13 attorney of record, Mr. William P. Vines. The 14 Respondent, Worldwide AircraftServices, Inc. , 15 is currently appearing through Ms. Robin 16 Levija, the bookkeeper for the company. 17 No other parties are present in 18 this telephone conference today. As the 19 record indicates, on June 6th, 2013 the 20 parties appeared for a litigation scheduling 21 conference and at that time. 22 Today 1 s conference date and time

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com4 1 were scheduledby agreement of the parties and 2 that was codified in writing by the June 6th, 3 2013 order setting litigation dates and 4 procedures, which was served on the parties 5 that same day. 6 Ms. Levija, Mr. Honeycutt is the 7 official representative of the Respondent in 8 these proceedings. Is there some reason that 9 he is not present? 10 MS. LEVIJA: I'm not aware of why, 11 your Honor. Basically, I got a call this 12 morning around 9:15 from Pat Matthews telling 13 us that there was a conference scheduled. 14 I took all the information and 15 texted Mr. Honeycutt because he was not in the 16 office and he called in and said he would not 17 be available until 11:15, 11:30 and for me to 18 call back and try to reschedule this 19 conference. 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Did he explain 21 why he was not available? 22

(202) 234-4433 MS. LEVIJA: No, ma'am.

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### 1 not. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: If he called you 3 in the office is there some reason why he did 4 

### not

- well, you wouldn't know. Excuse me. 5 Thank you. 6 

### Mr. Vines, let's turn to you. I 

### 7 did not, as you know, receive any motion for 8 summary judgment either from you or from Mr. 9 Honeycutt. Can you tell me the status of the 10 case at this point? Are the parties planning 11 to go to trial in March? 12 MR. VINES: Judge, at the onset of 13 the issuance of the notice of proposed civil 14 penalty Mr. Honeycutt related to me that he 15 wanted to try the case and made no counter 16 offer of settlement or wanted to enter into 17 settlement negotiations. 18 Since then, we have

- the parties 19 have engaged in discovery. I have requested 20 

### discovery. Mr. Honeycutt's company has 21 responded and replied to this agency's 22 discovery request and as of this date, again,

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### 1 there's been no discussion of settlement and 2 from my point of view that was based on Mr. 3 

### Honeycutt's position that he wanted to go to 4 

### the hearing. 5 

### So because of that it's my 6 

### expectationthat we will proceed to a hearing. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you 8 

### completed all of your discovery? 9 

### MR. VINES: I believe so, Judge, 10 

### we have. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And can 12 

### you tell me if there has been through the 13 

### discoveryprocess any narrowingof the issues? 14 

### MR. VINES: The

- according to the 15 

### Respondent's responses to the agency's 16 

### discovery request there have been some 17 

### admissions of some of the allegations 18 contained in the final notice. 19 However, I don't believe they are 20 sufficient to request a motion for summary 21 

### judgement. So at the minimum there have been 22 stipulations to the

- some of the allegations

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### 1 in the final notice but not to all of them. 2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Do you 3 have then a narrowing of some of the matters 4 that you would need as the prosecuting agent 5 to prove at a testimonial hearing? 6 It sounds like you have but I'm 7 maybe mishearing you. 8 

### MR. VINES: Judge, would you 9 kindly repeat your question? 10 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. It sounds 11 to me from what you've just said that you've 12 had some admissions to certain factual pieces 13 of evidence and that because of those 14 admissions you will not need to prove certain 15 facts. 16 Is that what I'm hearing from you? 17 

### MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. If there 19 have been admissions and you're working with 20 a pro se litigant who may not understand the 21 reality of those admissions it might be 22 helpful for you to simply note and one of the

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### 1 reasons that we have these kinds of 2 conferences is to do that so that a litigating 3 party can understand it but to know either 4 orally or in writing that such things have 5 been admitted, they are no longer in contest 6 and that they will be deemed stipulated to by 7 the parties for the purposes of trial. 8 So we have a February 21, 2014 due 9 date for written stipulations or motions in 10 limine and I would suggest to you that you may 11 want to just file a motion in limine at your 12 earliest convenience to state that there have 13 been certainadmissions and that you are going 14 to move in limine at the beginning of trial 15 for the Court to take notice of those 16 admissions so that the parties don't need to 17 bring evidence to present on those particular 18 facts. 19 And in that way you're basically 20 notifying your opposing party that the 21 disputed matters upon which testimonial or 22 documentary evidence must be presented has

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1 narrowed- that neitheryou nor they will need 2 to address those kinds of things because it's 3 admitted to. 4 If Mr. Honeycutt were a lawyer he 5 would know that. Since he's not a lawyer and 6 he's not attending today he may not know that. 7 I don't know his level of sophisticationwell 8 enough to say. 9 But since you do have some matters 10 that have been admitted, if they are not 11 specifically stipulated to by the other side 12 you certainly can make a motion in limine for 13 the Court to make a finding that they're not 14 disputed that they're undisputed facts. 15 Does that make sense? 16 MR. VINES: Yes, it does, Judge. 17 But to the second part of the motion in limine 18 it's my understanding this is general 19 discovery process. When a party admits to an 20 allegationthat's been essentiallythe same as 21 being a fact. 22 But I guess what you're asking,

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com10 1 just to make sure I understand

- well, to 2 understand

- to make sure I'm clear of what 3 you're asking you're asking me to make that a 4 formality and go ahead and file the motion in 5 limine. 6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I am because 7 you're dealing with a pro se litigant. 8 MR. VINES: Okay. 9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And a pro se 10 litigant does not have the sophistication, the 11 educationor the experienceto understandlike 12 an attorney would what an admission means. 13 So what I'm saying to you is that 14 we're dealing with a prose litigant, someone 15 who does not have the level of experience, 16 education or sophisticationthat you have and 17 who has made some admissions according to you 18 in the discovery process. 19 The earlier you can make it clear 20 unequivocallyto your friend across the aisle, 21 the pro se representative of Worldwide 22 Aircraft Services, Inc., that factual evidence

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### 11 1 is now more limited because of the admissions 2 the better off, I think, everyone will be. 3 That way - 4 

### MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 5 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. That way 6 you have a written notificationthat's clear, 7 unequivocal and easy to understand for your 8 friend across the aisle and you also have 9 given me a heads up as to what the scope of 10 the trial will be. 11 So it should be a fairly simple 12 type of motion where you can basicallymove in 13 limine

- you know, just a heads up motion ln 14 limine filed this week, next week, whenever 15 you can do that comfortably. 16 

### It says that there have been 17 certain admissions provided in discovery and 18 you can even copy those off, you know, from 19 the discovery responses and say, you know, A, 20 B and C have been admitted and will no longer 21 be matters of dispute at trial so that you 22 have noticed to your pro se litigant that the

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1 matters that are triable during the March 2014 2 trial have been narrowed and are reduced, and 3 that way we don't have a pro se litigant 4 coming to the trial and spending a half a day 5 disputing matters that they previously have 6 admitted. 7 And I say that not because I think 8 that Mr. Honeycutt might do that but because 9 I've had - I don't

- let me change that. I 10 say that not because I know that Mr. Honeycutt 11 would do that. 12 I say that because I've had pro se 13 litigants in other cases do it and I don't 14 want people to be misusing their time at trial 15 or being upset when they come to trial 16 thinking that the bulk of their case is being 17 denied an air hearing when if asked they've 18 already admitted to those facts and just 19 didn't understand it. 20 So I'm trying to encourage you to 21 assist the Court in making it clear to your 22 opposing litigant where the attentionis going

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### 1 to be drawn by the parties and the Court in 2 terms of what's disputed. Does that make 3 sense? 4 

### MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 5 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In terms 6 of what the

- the actual disputes remain, can 7 you give me a highlight now as to what the 8 actual disputes are based on the admissions 9 that you've already received? 10 MR. VINES: Judge, I believe the 11 disputed issues will be whether - I don't 12 know, Judge. First of all, do you have a copy 13 of the file notice with you? 14 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have a copy of 15 the complaint only. 16 

### MR. VINES: Okay, which should be 17 the final notice. Essentially, Judge, there 18 are several allegations that not

- that have 19 not been admitted by the Respondent. 20 I can give you those allegations 21 on this. I think that would probably be the 22 quickest way to explain that to you -

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1 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 2 

### MR. VINES: to answer your 3 question. 4 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Then let's go 5 through it

- Page 1 of the complaint, Page 2, 6 Page 3. That would be most helpful. Hello? 7 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 8 

### MR. VINES: Judge, I'm with you. 9 I'm pulling the actual complaint so that we're 10 on the same page. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 12 MR. HONEYCUTT: Judge Sullivan? 13 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. 14 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: This is Mike 15 Honeycutt. I just walked in and am on the 16 

### phone now. So I apologize. I did not know 17 about this conference call. 18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'll note that 19 it's now 10:50 in the morning. Mr. Honeycutt 20 

### has just joined us. Mr. Honeycutt, is Ms. 21 Levija on the phone still? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. HONEYCUIT: No. No, no. No,

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### 1 rna'am. 2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when did she 3 

### leave the conference? 4 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I just got in just 5 

### as Mr. Vines was saying about the reading of 6 

### the disputes. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is Ms. Levija in 8 

### the room still? 9 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: She just stepped 10 

### out to try to find the file for me. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In the 12 

### future, Mr. Honeycutt, a party is not allowed 13 

### to leave the conference without permission of 14 

### the Court. 15 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 16 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: So in the future 17 

### you want to have Ms. Levija stay on the line 18 

### until I excuse her. 19 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. I 

### 20 apologize. 21 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then I would 22 simply note, Mr. Honeycutt, that you've had

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### l notice of this conference since June 6th, 2013 2 when we scheduled it while you were present 3 and using your calendar. 4 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. I'm

- 5 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: You also received 6 a written notice of it in the June 6th, 2013 7 order settinglitigationdates andprocedures. 8 So you've had working knowledge of this 9 conference for seven months or more. 10 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you for 12 appearinglate and we're going to proceed then 13 with what Mr. Vines was going to do. Mr. 14 Vines is basically telling me what matters 15 you've admitted to in discovery so that I have 16 an idea of what is remaining for trial. 17 

### Mr. Vines has also told me that 18 you have already told him that you do not want 19 to settle this case and as a result you have 20 not had any settlement discussions. So let me 21 check in with you about that. 22 Is there some - is there some room

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### 1 still for any settlement discussions prior to 2 the March 2014 trial in your opinion, Mr. 3 Honeycutt? 4 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. I 

### do 5 believe there's a 

### potential to resolve the 6 case before trial. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Is there 8 some reason why you have not contacted Mr. 9 Vines to talk about that? 10 MR. HONEYCUTT: I believe I did 11 send- I'll have to go back to my records. I 12 thought I sent Mr. Vines an email in there and 13 

### responding to some of the information. I 

### 14 thought I included in one of my emails that I 15 said would this be potentially something we 16 could settle before court. 17 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then what 18 I'm going to do is I'm going to ask both of 19 you to continue that discussion privately 20 after this conference is over. You're welcome 21 to continue talking about settlement up until 22 and through the trial part.

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- two and three. 16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So I have

- and 17 when I - when you say paragraphs two and three 18 I have Roman numerals I and II and then 19 regular numbers one, two, three and four. Are 20 you talking about paragraphs regular number 21 two and three? 22 MR. VINES: That's correct, your

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1 

### Honor. Paragraph two would be at all times 2 

### material herein and paragraph three would 3 begin on or about May 3rd of 2009. 4 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 5 And let's go to Page 2 of the three-page 6 

### complaint. Anything on there that's been 7 

### admitted. 8 

### MR. VINES: Paragraphs five and 9 

### six. 10 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 11 

### MR. VINES: And that is all that's 12 

### been admitted as to the complaint. 13 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And what 14 

### about Page 3? Anything on Page 3? Mr. Vines? 15 

### MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 16 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Anything on Page 17 

### 3? 18 

### MR. VINES: I'm sorry, Judge. I 19 

### thought I answered. No, Judge. Nothing on 20 

### Page 3 . Nothing has been admitted to on Page 21 3. 22

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### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay.

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### Mr.

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### 1 Honeycutt, do you have a copy of the complaint 2 in front of you? 3 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm diligently 4 working through my paperwork, Judge. I don't 5 

### have it. Notice of proposed civil penalty? 6 

### Is this

- 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. I have a 8 copy of the complaint that was signed by Mr. 9 Vines on February 20, 2013 and which was filed 10 with my office as the allegation against your 11 company, and if you don't have it with you - 12 what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you 13 to look for it at your own time. 14 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 15 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then you want 16 to take a look and see if you agree with Mr. 17 Vines' representation that you have already 18 admitted to the truth of allegations number 19 two and three on Page 1 and five and six on 20 Page 2. 21 MR

. HONEYCUTT : Number two and 22 number three on Page 1.

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1 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. 2 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: And

- 3 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Numbers five and 4 six on Page 2. 5 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Right. 6 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And if you don't 7 agree then I'm going to ask you to file a 8 written objection and explain why you don't 9 

### agree and why Mr. Vines is incorrect in the 10 assertion that you have already admitted them 11 in discovery. 12 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 13 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to 14 ask you to do that on or before January 22nd, 15 2014. 16 

### MR. VINES: Judge, if I may 17 interject. 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 19 

### MR. VINES: As part of my 20 discovery request I also asked the Respondent 21 to admit or deny some other factual 22 allegations that were - that are not included

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- some facts, as I said, were 3 not included in the complaint. 4 So from an efficiency standpoint 5 it would probably be best if I went ahead and 6 filed the motion in limine regardingthe facts 7 admitted to in the complaint as well as facts 8 admitted to that are not contained in the 9 complaint. 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. When you 11 say the facts not admitted in the complaint I 12 take it that you're talking about facts that 13 would make it more - how do I want to say 14 this? 15 You're asking

- in your discovery 16 request you were asking for admissions to 17 facts that are relevant to this particular 18 complaint that's been filed and is being 19 litigated before me. Is that correct? 20 MR. VINES: That's correct, Judge. 21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. They 22 simply aren't identified specifically within

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### 1 that complaint. 2 

### MR. VINES: Correct. 3 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 4 we do this then? How soon, Mr. Vines, do you 5 think you can file that particular motion so 6 that we can make sure that Mr. Honeycutt is 7 

### fully on board with what we'll actually be 8 trying in March? 9 

### MR. VINES: Judge, I am out of the 10 office on Friday. However, I can have this in 11 the mail by Thursday evening

- my motion. 12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Thursday 13 evening would be this Thursday or next 14 Thursday? 15 

### MR. VINES: This Thursday 16 tomorrow evening, Judge. 17 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So you'll 18 file that January 9th, 2014 and I would be 19 most appreciative if you could fax a copy to 20 my office since I don't have control over how 21 long it takes mail to be irradiated once it 22 gets into the mail room at this department.

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1 

### Mr. Honeycutt, why don't we do 2 

### this then? Why don't we have you file any 3 objectionor response to that motion in limine 4 on or before January 23rd, 2014? 5 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 6 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don't have to 7 file an objection. If you agree that you have 8 admitted all of those facts that you're going 9 to see outlined in Mr. Vines' motion in limine 10 that's fine. 11 

### I just want to make sure you 12 understandthat when you admit to something it 13 then becomes noncontroversial. 14 It's an agreement that certain 15 facts are true and when parties agree that 16 certain facts are true then you don't have to 17 come to court and present evidence about those 18 facts. 19 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I understand. 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. When that 21 happens then the scope of the trial becomes 22 more narrow and instead of having to prove

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWoN.nealrgross.com25 1 everything or disprove everything you have a 2 much smaller amount of information that is in 3 dispute and as a result the parties can then 4 spend more time presenting evidence on that 5 smaller body of disputed material and it's 6 very helpful if third parties come to trial 7 knowing what that more focused arena is going 8 to be. 9 So if you agree essentially to 10 what Mr. Vines files you're welcome to simply 11 file a statement saying I agree that I 12 admitted to all of those things and that's it. 13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So okay. So we 15 have then on February 7th, 2014 a deadline for 16 both of you to file and serve the list of 17 witnesses that you're going to call, a short 18 statement of the testimony expected from each 19 witness, if any of the witnesses are experts, 20 a resume of their expertise and then you want 21 to exchange with each other premarked 22 documents and the documents that you exchange

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### 1 should also have a cover sheet

- an indexed 2 cover sheet so that you have a page that 3 

### identifies the documents an easy to use 4 

### reference. 5 

### You don't need to file that with 6 me. You can save your copy until the day of 7 

### the trial and when you come to the trial you 8 

### want to have three copies for me. 9 

### I'll take two of them essentially 10 and one will go to the reporter, and the June 11 6th, 2013 order setting litigation dates and 12 procedures on Page 3 

### paragraph E 

### as in egg 13 talks about this and the paragraph E 

### as in egg 14 

### actuallyhas a slightmisstatement sayingthat 15 

### one of the copies will go to me and two of 16 

### them will go to the reporter. That's an 17 

### error. 18 

### It's actually I take two and the 19 

### reporter takes one. So

- but that shouldn't 20 prevent you from bringing three copies. So 21 three copies at the day of trial. 22 If you have other stipulations or

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WoNw.nealrgross.com27 1 any motions in limine in addition to the one 2 that will be filed by the FAA on January 9th, 3 2014 those should be filed on or before 4 February 21, 2014. 5 And then I will be sending out to 6 both of you a notice of where in Tampa, 7 Florida we will be holding the trial and I 8 wait until I hold the conference such as this 9 one before I actually reserve the courtroom 10 time. 11 The reason I wait until now is 12 because sometimes when I get on the phone with 13 the parties they'rejust about ready to settle 14 a case and they're pretty sure they're not 15 going to go to trial. 16 So we wait here in this office 17 until we hold this prehearing status 18 conference to make sure that a trial courtroom 19 is necessary. 20 But for now it looks like the 21 parties may be going to trial so I'll simply 22 confirm that we have March 5th, 2014 and March

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- 9 that kind of thing. 10 Typically, in federal courthouses 11 which is where we like to start looking for 12 courtroom space you'11 need to schedule some 13 time to go through security and depending on 14 how early you get there. Typically, federal 15 courthouses open between 8:00 and 8:30 in the 16 morning. 17 When I send out the hearing notice 18 I '11 try and let you know what time that 19 particular courtroom or courthouse opens so 20 that you know. 21 Mr. Vines, on behalf of your 22 client you hopefully heard that Mr. Honeycutt

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1 

### is still open to possible settlement 2 discussions. I hope that you and he will have 3 a chance to talk at least once before 4 between now and March 5th, 2014. 5 Is there anything else that I can 6 address for your client today before we close, 7 Mr. Vines? 8 

### MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. This will 9 be my first trial in front of a DOT 10 administrative law judge and I would like to 11 find out the procedure in which to request 12 subpoenas if the Court does have the authority 13 to issue a subpoena. 14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I 

### do have 15 authority to issue subpoenas and typically 16 what most people do is they simply send a 17 request with the hearingdocket because if you 18 look at the regulations- I'm going to pull my 19 copy up really quickly. 20 The regulations allow you to 21 request the same from eitherme or the hearing 22 docket clerk and the easiest way to do it is

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### 1 just to send the hearing docket clerk a 2 request and the clerk has a boilerplate form 3 that he or she will issue to you. 4 So let me see if I can find that. 5 It's 14 CFR Section 13.228. So you'll see in 6 Subsection A that the hearing docket clerk 7 basically can sign off on any subpoena 8 request. 9 

### MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 10 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. You can 11 submit it to me as well but I've heard from 12 other attorneys in the FAA that they find it 13 to be very quick to serve - to ask the hearing 14 docket clerk because they have a streamlined 15 process that we don't. 16 But I'm happy to

- I'm happy to 17 respond to any requests as well. Just take a 18 look at that rule and see what works for you. 19 The sooner the better in terms of time since 20 you have about two months. 21 It's two months out. I would say 22 the sooner the better. How many subpoenas do

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### 1 you think you're going to be asking for? 2 MR. VINES: Judge, I 'm looking 3 

### through my notes. Potentiallythree to five. 4 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. If 5 

### you have any problems just let me know and I 6 

### can help you. 7 

### MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 8 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 9 

### Any other questions, Mr. Vines, before I turn 10 

### to Mr. Honeycutt? 11 

### MR. VINES: No, Judge. 12 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 13 Honeycutt, on behalf of Worldwide Aircraft 14 Services, Inc., is there anything that you 15 would like to know or to discuss on behalf of 16 your client before we close today? 17 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I just want to 18 confirm again the counts that I'm agreeing to 19 on Page 1 of the complaint. Is it number two? 20 It's not Roman numeral II or I guess it lS 

### the 21 

### same complaint. I got Roman numeral I and 22 then item one, Roman numeral II, number two,

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### 1 count one which is three. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. And I 3 

### what I'm going to do is I'm going to answer 4 

### that question and then I will talk a little 5 

### bit more about what we just did. 6 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: So on Page 1 

### of 8 

### the complaint under Roman numeral II there's 9 

### a paragraph number two. 10 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Right. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Vines has 12 asserted that you have admitted to that 13 

### allegation. 14 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Correct. At all 15 

### times we're

- Worldwide. Correct. I agree to 16 

### that. 17 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In 18 addition, on Page 1 under count one there's a 19 number three and Mr. Vines is asserting that 20 you have also admitted to paragraph number 21 three on Page 1 of the complaint. 22 MR. HONEYCUTT: And that is

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### 1 correct as well. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. On Page 2 3 of the complaint there are paragraphs listed 4 

### as number five and number six. Mr. Vines is 5 

### asserting that you have admitted to both of 6 

### those paragraphs. 7 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Correct. 8 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Now, okay. So 9 

### we've cleared that up. What Mr. Vines has 10 also said is that in your exchange of 11 information during the discovery process he 12 asked for other admissions on other facts that 13 form the basis of some of the material in his 14 complaint and you admittedto some but not all 15 of those requests for information. 16 Because some of that material is 17 not directly repeated in the three-page 18 complaint that has been filed in my office, 19 Mr. Vines has said that he will be filing a 20 motion in limine requesting or notifying

- 21 requesting that the Court grant those 22 admissions at the beginning of trial.

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### 1 I asked him to do that because I 2 think it's very helpful when we have someone 3 such as yourself who is not an attorney 4 representing a litigant. A motion in limine 5 

### is something that is often made in writing 6 prior to the trial actually starting. 7 Mr. Vines is planning to file this 8 motion in limine identifying each and every 9 fact that he says you've admitted during this 10 discovery process on or before the end of 11 January 9th, 2014. 12 That means he's going to file 13 somethingidentifyingeachof thoseundisputed 14 facts before the end of the day tomorrow. 15 

### Since you are a pro se litigant 16 I'm going to ask you to be sure and take a 17 look at that material that he files and if you 18 have any objection or disagreement with his 19 assertion that you've already admitted to 20 those facts that will be in this motion he 21 files tomorrow you need to file your 22 objections and the bases for your objections

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### 1 on or before January 23rd, 2014. 2 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 3 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: We've heard from 4 you today that it sounds like you agree with 5 Mr. Vines that you've admitted paragraphs two 6 and three on Page 1 of the complaint and 7 paragraphs five and six on Page 2 of the 8 complaint, and that's very helpful because 9 then both you and Mr. Vines are on the same 10 page with what is ln dispute. 11 

### Now, how many witnesses, Mr. 12 Honeycutt, do you think you will be calling at 13 this point? Do you have any idea? 14 MR. HONEYCUTT: No more than five, 15 your Honor. 16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. On Page 2 17 of the four-page order setting litigation 18 dates and procedures, which was issued on June 19 6th, 2013, there is a paragraph numbered 20 number 10 that gives you a February 7, 2014 21 deadline for exchanging witness lists and 22 exhibits. Do you have that in front of you?

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1 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. This is a 3 deadline for you to serve Mr. Vines with a 4 list of your witnesses which includes the name 5 of the witness, how to contact them, a short 6 statement of their testimony, their resume if 7 it's an expert and then a copy of any and all 8 documents that you plan to ask the Court to 9 admit into evidence and consider in your 10 defensive case. 11 Whatever you give to Mr. Vines on 12 February 7, 2014 you should also be bringing 13 to the trial on March 5, 2014. You should be 14 bringing three exact copies of that for me. 15 I will take two of them back to 16 the office with me and the third copy goes to 17 the court reporter. But they have to be, you 18 know, a replica of what you give to Mr. Vines 19 on February 7, 2014. 20 Now, there are two parts to these 21 kinds of trials. I think we talked a little 22 bit about this on June 6th, 2013. One part of

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### 1 the trial is whether or not the allegations 2 made by the FAA are true. 3 

### The second part of the trial is 4 whether or not the FAA's recommended penalty 5 

### is appropriate. There are certain ways to 6 challenge the proposed penalty and we talked 7 in June 2013 about reading the regulations and 8 looking up information on the Web, I think, 9 accordingto my notes, to become more educated 10 about those defenses. 11 

### Some of the defenses to the 12 proposed penalty involve assertions of an 13 inability to pay or the money is too much for 14 the company - that kind of thing. And if you 15 are making those assertions you do need to 16 present evidence to support those kinds of 17 assertions. 18 

### So if you are asserting, for 19 example, that your company can't afford it you 20 have to provide financial documentation to 21 support that assertion. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### If you are asserting that the

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### 1 my finances because it's none of your 2 business. Fair enough. But that doesn't help 3 them challenge the proposed penalty. 4 

### I've had people say well, the 5 allegationdidn't exist and even if it did the 6 FAA doesn't have enough evidence to prove it 7 beyond a reasonable doubt. 8 

### Well, that may be true but the 9 standard of proof in these kinds of cases is 10 

### not beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the 11 standard for criminal cases only. 12 The standard for proof in these 13 cases is by a preponderance of the evidence, 14 which is considered to be the lowest standard 15 to meet in trial. 16 The preponderance of the evidence 17 standard is if you're looking at a weight 18 scale and the weights are evenly balanced 50- 19 50, well, that hasn't met a preponderance of 20 the evidence standard. 21 But if you add five pounds to one 22 side and take out five pounds from the other

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### 1 so that you have a 55-45 weight scale with one 2 scale higher than the other, that would be a 3 preponderance of the evidence standard. 4 

### There are other standards for 5 different types of trial cases. The highest 6 standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. If we 7 use the same weight scale beyond a reasonable 8 doubt standard is much higher than a 55-45 9 

### split. I 

### would say you're 10 looking more at an 80-20 or even higher split 11 for a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. 12 Some people would even say it's a 95 to 5 but 13 I think that's perhaps stretching it a little 14 bit. 15 

### The weight scale isn't quite 16 accurate in reflecting how we look at 17 evidentiary standards but it gives you some 18 visualization, I think, that's important to 19 have especially since we're on the telephone 20 and we're not seeing each other face to face. 21 Mr. Honeycutt, does that make 22 sense to you what we just talked about?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com41 1 MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. It 2 does. 3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have other 4 questions or anything else that I can address 5 for you before I see you potentially in two 6 months? 7 MR. HONEYCUTT: The only question 8 I would have and maybe Mr. Vines can answer it 9 through you is I requested the complete file 10 and the file that I got has got redacted 11 information on inspector's notes

- personal 12 notes and I'd like to have- and I thought I 13 sent this to him

- the nonredactedpart of it. 14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 15 MR. HONEYCUTT : And if it is 16 redacted, why and what statute

- 17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So in

- it 18 sounds like you requested in discovery a file 19 of which inspector or are there more than one? 20 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, all the

- of 21 all the inspectors in the case on the aviation 22 side

- Inspector Schaefer, Inspector Donahue,

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### 1 Inspector Kahler and anyone else that was 2 involved in the case from the Tampa field 3 

### office. 4 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Other than 5 

### Inspector Schaefer and Inspector Donahue do 6 

### you have the names of anyone else? 7 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I'm not sure of 8 

### the inspector

- there was an inspector in 9 

### Illinois. I don't have it right in front of 10 

### me. I can get it from Mr. Vines. 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And what 12 information or what types of redactions did 13 you see in the material that was sent to you? 14 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Just for example, 15 I have

- I'm going to pull this file here. 16 I'm getting it out

- this is a statement of 17 case. It doesn't give me who the inspector is 18 

### doing this. There is a case number at the 19 bottom but it doesn't have

- it doesn't have 20 the inspector's name. There's quite a bit of 21 information redacted from it. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can you tell from

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### 1 looking at a certain page what type of 2 redaction occurred? 3 MR. 

### HONEYCUTT: Yeah. The 4 paragraph- if you'll bear with me, on May 5 3rd, 2009 during the conversationbetween Mr. 6 Honeycutt and Captain Plas they decided that 7 any damage was minimal. 8 Mr. Honeycutt deferred to Captain 9 Plas' judgment of severity of damage to 10 determine if the flight should continue or 11 

### not. The damage was noted in Captain Plas' 12 statement as only bent tins. 13 Captain Plas, with Mr. Honeycutt's 14 correspondence, decided to continue with the 15 trip. Then it has a parentheses IOP-7. And 16 then there's several sentences redacted

- goes 17 on into the next paragraph and there's 18 redaction in that as well. 19 So the inspector, I guess, writing 20 this report that information, like I said, 21 that's redacted is quite a bit. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay.

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### Do you

www.nealrgross.com44

1 

### know the date of the report? You said, I 2 think, May 3rd, 2013 or is that

- 3 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: That was the 4 incident date that they were referring to. 5 This is

- at the top it has Section B 

### 2009 6 S0150216. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 8 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: And it starts with 9 number one, statement of case. 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 11 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: So it's the 12 southern- I'm assuming that's a file number 13 for the

- 14 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Southern region. 15 Mr. Vines, why don't I turn to you? Do you 16 have any information about this? 17 

### MR. VINES: Judge, it 1

### s our policy 18 when we issue a notice of proposed civil 19 penalty that if the Respondent or the agency 20 or the airmen request a copy of our 21 enforcement investigative report that we 22 release that to them.

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1 Normally, we follow the FOIA 2 regulations, Freedom of InformationAct. But 3 because of the situation in which we are in 4 with the

- an individual or agency in which 5 we're proposing to issue a civil penaltywe go 6 ahead and without a FOIA request

- official 7 FOIA request from the Respondent we go ahead 8 and issue redacted portions of the EIR and 9 redactions are made according to the FOIA 10 regulations and those include, without 11 reciting verbatim, that the agency is allowed 12 to redact work product and opinions of 13 inspectors, and of the agency, and the 14 redactions that have been made by the agency 15 are in accord with those FOIA regulations 16 which allow us to redact certain statements. 17 And, again, I would assert that 18 the redactions that Mr. Honeycutt is referring 19 to are redactions that deal with deliberative 20 process - statements of deliberate process or 21 statement of opinion. 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I think

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1 

### there's a couple problems with that. For one, 2 this is not a public FOIA request. You're in 3 litigation. So the question is are you going 4 

### to be using or asking any of these individuals 5 

### to offer opinions while they testify? 6 

### MR. VINES: And, again well, 7 

### first, before we get there I don't have any 8 

### formal requests that any of that information 9 

### be released. 10 

### But assuming that this is a request for 11 

### that information, again, it's - I would have 12 

### to go back and reference what has been 13 

### redactedversus what information I anticipate 14 

### to elicit from my witnesses, Judge. 15 

### So in all 

### honesty I 

### can't 16 specifically say, you know, what information 17 has been redacted will be information that I 18 solicit from the

- my witnesses. 19 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that

- you 20 know, that

- that's helpful to know and yet at 21 

### the same time I've heard from Mr. Vines that 22 he requested the complete file of all the

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### 1 investigator's work that's relevant to this 2 case. Are you saying that there is no request 3 that you ever received? 4 

### MR. VINES: I don't recall. I 

### 5 recall a request by Mr. Honeycutt for the EIR 6 - a copy of the EIR, Judge, and this was prior 7 to any litigation being in mind by

- and by 8 that I mean prior to the final notice having 9 been issued. 10 

### And if you will give me one 11 moment, Judge, I can pull the requests that 12 came from Mr. Honeycutt regarding the release 13 of that information. 14 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 15 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Your Honor, I 16 don't mean to interrupt but as you - as you 17 stated this is litigation. Should I have to 18 supply a freedom of informationrequest in the 19 litigation when I want a complete file and I 20 think

- 21 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. MR. HONEYCUTT:

- speaking from

-

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1 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can I interrupt 2 you? The answer is no, clearly you do not. 3 But you do have to make discovery requests and 4 from what Mr. Vines has told me you didn't. 5 And so we have a little bit of a problem that 6 I'm going to see if I can fix. 7 

### MR. VINES: Judge, at one point 8 during this proceeding after the issue of a 9 notice of proposed civil penalty I received a 10 letter from an attorneyby the name of Gregory 11 S. Winton dated May 23rd of 2011 in which Mr. 12 Winton notified the agency that he is 13 representing Worldwide Aircraft Services and 14 that he would like to participate in an 15 informal conference as well as for the agency 16 to provide a copy of the court releasable 17 portions of the enforcement investigative 18 report, end quotes. 19 

### Subsequent to that I did supply 20 that information. In addition, Mr. Winton, 21 the attorney, did I believe withdraw from the 22 hearing or withdraw from representing Mr.

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### 1 Honeycutt and his company. 2 I issued a copy of the releasable 3 portions in the enforcement investigative 4 report on June 22nd of 2011. I have a letter 5 referencing that and with my knowledge and 6 

### again, if Mr. Honeycutt could tell me 7 otherwise, I did not receive any discovery 8 request from he or his company regarding the 9 litigation. 10 The only request I have is from 11 Mr.

- excuse me, from the Worldwide attorney 12 who was representingWorldwide at the time for 13 a request of a copy of the releasableportions 14 of the enforcement investigative report. 15 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 16 

### Honeycutt, let me turn to you. Are you 17 basically referencing in your complaint today 18 material that has been redacted that Mr. 19 Winton obtained for you in May 2011? 20 MR. HONEYCUTT: That information 21 is correct in the fact that I'm referencing 22 the investigative file. I also

- and that I

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### 1 thought on the phone with Mr. Vines

- and 2 I'll have to go back through my emails and my 3 responsesto the interrogatoriesand discovery 4 from Mr. Vines where I specificallyasked for 5 a complete file that did not have any 6 redaction in it. 7 I think the inspectors' opinions 8 and

- which is what I will want to discuss at 9 trial is very relevant to this case. I mean, 10 a decision to, you know, put a violation 11 against my certificate and charge a fine was 12 based off inspectors' and investigators' 13 decision. 14 I'm assuming it was - I don't know 15 who makes the decision on the fine, if it's 16 

### the attorney's office or if 

### it's the 17 inspector, but I think I'm entitled to their 18 full complete file. 19 

### I mean, I even asked for the 20 transcript of the anonymous 1-800 complaint 21 that initiated this investigation and that's 22 information

-

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, one thing

- 2 MR. HONEYCUTT : recorded or 3 transcript out from a phone line or a personal 4 note. I'm sorry. 5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let me interrupt 6 you. So I think there are two different 7 things I'm asking you and so let's start with 8 the first. 9 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: In the material 11 that you have before you where there have been 12 redactions is that material the documentation 13 that Mr. Winton got for you based on a May 14 2011 letter he sent to the FAA? 

### 15 MR

. HONEYCUTT : Yes, ma'am. I 16 believe it is what was sent to me from Mr. 17 Winton. 18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And then 19 in your own request you say you made in 20 discovery after June 6th, 2013 can you tell me 21 if those were parts of your answers to a 22 discovery request sent to you by Mr. Vines or

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### 1 if you made separate discovery requests 2 independent of answering questions that Mr. 3 Vines asked you? 4 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I made a separate 5 request and the date I don't have exactly in 6 front of me and the response, I believe, I got 7 from Mr. Vines, to the best of my memory, is 8 the file

- the complete file was sent to me - 9 the complete EIN file was sent to me and 10 that's not what I requested. I did request a 11 complete file without the redactions. 12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 13 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I'll go back 14 through each email and each response and find 15 that. 16 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you - do you 17 remember when that happened? 18 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: I don't have a 19 time and date, your Honor. I know - I just

- 20 I know that I wanted a complete file and I 21 brought that up and I believe Mr. Vines said 22 that the file had been sent to me in one of

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### 1 the letters

- one of our correspondences. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. What you 3 have, Mr. Honeycutt, is a discovery dispute 4 and if you look at the June 6th, 2013 order 5 

### setting litigation dates and procedures 6 there's a specific section on what to do if 7 you have a discoverydispute, and that section 8 is on Page 3 of the four-page order. 9 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. Which 10 letter would that be? 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: It would be 12 letter D as in David. 13 MR. HONEYCUTT: Okay. Okay. 14 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And it talks 15 

### about how if you have disputes about 16 discovery and you want to move to force it

- 17 to compel discovery, which is a motion to 18 force the opposing side to give you more than 19 what they've given to date, you file it as 20 soon as possible or no later than 10 days 21 after you receive the deficient discovery 22 response.

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### 1 So all of the discovery, as you 2 can see in this litigationorder, was supposed 3 to be completed by September 30, 2013 which 4 was three plus some odd days

- three months 5 and some days ago. 6 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: So this dispute 8 is very late in coming to my attention. What 9 I'm going to ask you to do is to look through 10 all of your papers and to find a copy of when 11 you made that separate request to the FAA for 12 the complete file and the response you got 13 should also be included and I'm going to ask 14 you to send that to me and a copy to Mr. Vines 15 and I would like to have that no later than 16 next Thursday- January 16, 2014. 17 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then what I'm 19 going to do is I'm going to set up another 20 telephone conference so that we can try and 21 resolve this as quickly as possible and I'm 22 going to look at my calendar to do that, and

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### 1 it looks like I've been timed out so I need to 2 log in again. 3 

### Okay. I'm logged back into my 4 calendar. Why don't we plan on - why don't we 5 plan on Thursday, January 23rd? 6 

### MR. VINES: Judge, I will be out 7 of the country on the 22nd to the 24th. I'll 8 be in the office the 21st and the week 9 

### thereafter. 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I will be in 11 a trial the week of the 27th. I will not be 12 in the office the 20th or the 21st. So let's 13 see what else we can do. 14 How about - I should be back in 15 the office the 31st of January. Mr. Vines, if 16 I recall you were available that week. 17 MR. VINES: January 31st? 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct. 19 

### MR. VINES: Judge, I'm available. 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 21 Honeycutt, are you available on January 31st? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, I am.

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### am

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### 1 available. 2 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 3 we do this? Why don't we plan on a 10:30 a.m. 4 telephone conference on January 31, 2014 5 regarding this discovery issue? 6 I'm looking at my calendar- the 7 

### 16th. Mr. Vines, why don't you file a 8 response to Mr. Honeycutt's motion for 9 

### discovery if the two of you can't resolve this 10 informally on or before

- can you have it 11 filed by the 28th of January? 12 MR. VINES: If I get it the day of 13 the 16th I'll have the following day and then 14 the 21st to work on it and you're asking me to 15 

### file my response on the 28th. Is that 16 correct? 17 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Right. 18 MR. VINES: Yes, that's fine. 19 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. So 20 just to be clear, I'm going to go through 21 these dates and I'll send out an order after 22 we conclude.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com57 1 In terms of the motion in limine 2 regarding the admissions the FAA is going to 3 file a motion on or before January 9th, 2014. 4 The Respondent's objections are due on or 5 before January 23rd, 2014. 6 In terms of the Respondent's 7 motion for to compel discovery, the 8 Respondent's motion is due on or before 9 January 16th, 2014. The FAA's reply is due on 10 or before January 28th, 2014. We will 11 reconvene on January 31, 2014 at 10:30 a.m. 12 Now, in terms of discovery, 13 discovery is very broad in nature and it 14 encompasses anything that couldbe relevant to 15 either side in terms of proving or disproving 16 the allegations. 17 In addition, the parties should be 18 disclosing the opinions and the bases for 19 opinions of any and all experts that are going 20 to be called or that potentially could be 21 called. 22

(202) 234-4433 So, Mr. Vines, I'm going to ask

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com58 1 you to be sure and take a second look at 2 whatever materials Mr. Winton was provided ln 3 May 2011 prior to this case being filed. 4 It may or may not be subject to 5 litigation discovery, which is completely 6 different, in this Court 1s opinion, from a 7 general FOIA request and I understand that in 8 a FOIA request you would be interested ln 9 limiting certain work product and employee 10 opinions. 11 That limitation, however, in my 12 opinion, does not easily or often equally 13 translate into what is or is not discoverable 14 in litigation. 15 So there are things in litigation 16 that are discoverable that may not be covered 17 under your agency 1s internal FOIA request 18 response policy. 19 So if there are opinions by an 20 expert that relate specifically to this case 21 and there has been a request for those 22 opinions and such opinions might be helpful

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### 1 either to the proof of the case or the 2 disproof of the case those are discoverable 3 and should be offered. 4 

### I would agree with you that 5 certain work product is privileged but you 6 

### have to make a case for that typically in 7 litigation. 8 

### So you may find that there are 9 

### some things that you can provide without going 10 through a formal motion, and then we're going 11 to be looking at this again on January 31st, 12 2014 based on whatever the parties have not 13 yet agreed to or come to a 

### reasoned 14 understanding about. 15 MR. 

### VINES: Judge, I thank you for 16 

### that and I respect that. I, at this point, 17 would just like to wait and provide my 18 response to Worldwide's motion, I guess, to 19 

### compel discovery. I'd like

- again, as you 20 noted earlier there was a 

### period for 21 discovery. 22 That period has obviously ended.

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### 1 My recollection of my notes and my documents 2 I don't recall or see any documentation in 3 which Worldwide has specifically requested 4 anything at all during the discoveryprocess. 5 So that would likely be my primary 6 objection to having to compel any further

- 7 you know, supply any further additional 8 information that Worldwide may request. 9 Nonetheless, I may be overlooking something 10 that Worldwide can provide to show that I did 11 receive such requests. 12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. That's

- 13 

### MR. VINES: But, again, I'll hold 14 off on that until I actually receive

- excuse 15 me, Worldwide's motion. 16 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. Well, I 17 appreciate that and that's certainly your 18 right and privilege as an advocate. So, Mr. 19 Honeycutt, essentially what Mr. Vines is 20 saying is that you have to

- you have to show 21 proof first and foremost that you made that 22 request and you- I'm giving you a chance to

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### 1 do that and you need to file it on or before 2 January 16th, 2014. 3 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 4 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 5 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: May I ask a 6 question on - 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 8 

### MR. HONEYCUTT:

- Mr. Vines as to 9 what is the investigatorsand inspectors? Are 10 they considered experts? 11 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, the answer, 12 Mr. Honeycutt, lS 

### that typically an 13 investigator can be identified and qualified 14 as an expert. So most often when 15 investigators or inspectors are called to the 16 witness stand they are qualified as experts 17 because the Court or the party who calls them 18 wants the Court to rely upon their expertise. 19 If they're not called as experts 20 then their testimony is taken as a member of 21 the public with no particular expertise. And 22 so the way that the Court considers and

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### 1 weights evidence is different for people who 2 are testifying based on their own personal 3 knowledge versus people who are qualified as 4 experts. 5 It 

### generally behooves the 6 litigants to have an expert because the expert 7 can form opinions without having any kind of 8 personal knowledge about facts that are in 9 dispute, and I 

### don't know that I 

### need to get 10 into that any more than that. 11 

### The answer to your question is 12 typically an investigator or inspector is 13 

### qualified as an expert. Mr. Honeycutt, any 14 0ther questions before we close? 15 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, the

- your 16 Honor, the way maybe to resolve the issue is 17 if each individual inspector is going to be 18 considered an expert then going into the 19 February 7th list of witnesses, the exchange 20 in exhibits do, in that you reference 21 documents the parties intend to offer in 22 evidence

(202) 234-4433 

### and I'm 

### assuming that

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### their

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### 1 investigative notes and everything would be 2 entered and therefore that would

- 3 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that's a 4 false assumption. 5 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, I would

- 6 

### okay. Yes, ma'am. 7 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: That's a false 8 

### assumption. You cannot presume that your 9 friend across the aisle is going to do any 10 such thing. 11 MR. HONEYCUTT: Well, they're 12 listed on my- I'm sorry, your Honor. I don't 13 

### mean to interrupt you. I apologize. 14 

### I have them listed as witnesses 15 that I'm- well, he listed them as witnesses 16 

### that he was going to call. Therefore, I

- 17 we're going to use them as witnesses as well. 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, that's 19 another assumption, Mr. Honeycutt. You have 20 the ability as an advocate to cross examine 21 any witness that the FAA presents on its own 22 case in chief.

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### 1 Once the FAA presents its own 2 witness to its satisfaction and it rests its 3 case in chief the FAA can excuse all of its 4 witnesses and they can go home. 5 So unless you reach an agreement 6 with Mr. Vines that they are going to keep 7 their witnesses available to you for you to 8 use in your defense's presentation, you can't 9 make the assumption that they're going to sit 10 around and wait so that you can call them as 11 your own witnesses nor can you make the 12 assumptionthat they will have valuable things 13 to say on your behalf. 14 So there are certain ways that you 15 can utilize an opponent's witnesses to bring 16 out information for you in cross examination. 17 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: But that doesn't 19 mean that you can assume that the witnesses 20 will hang around town or hang around the 21 courthouse and wait until you decide to call 22 them as your own witness.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com65 1 So you may want to rethink some of 2 these assumptions that you're making. In 3 addition, just because someone wrote a report 4 as an agency employee doesn't mean that 5 they're going to ask for that report to be 6 admitted into evidence. 7 In fact, many people who advocate 8 in trial prefer not to have the report 9 admitted into evidence at all. What they 10 prefer is to have the witness selectively 11 testify about things without admitting the 12 report into evidence. 13 So I often will have a witness 14 testify before me and I never see the report. 15 It never is admitted. Sometimes the witness 16 wants to have the report admitted and there's 17 a motion to admit, which is either objectedto 18 or agreed to. So sometimes I do see the 19 report. 20 But I would not encourage you to 21 assume that just because someone is listed as 22 a witness that their report will follow them

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1 to the courthouse and get admitted. 2 So if you have an email as you 3 have said stating that you sent to Mr. Vines 4 specificallyrequesting, you know, disclosure 5 of the complete report and get that out and 6 provide that as well as Mr. Vines' response on 7 or before January 16, 2014 and if you don't 8 want to pursue that particular motion, you 9 know, after thinking about it or after looking 10 through your file that's your decision as 11 well. 12 So it would be helpful, since 13 we've set up these dates for you, that if you 14 decide not to pursue the motion, just to send 15 a letter or a note filed with my file and then 16 

### CC'd to Mr. Vines and the hearing docket clerk 17 that you are not pursuing the motion and we'll 18 just let that go. 19 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Yes, ma'am. 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yeah. I will 21 retain the January 31, 2014 conference on my 22 calendar no matter what. I think it might be

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### 67 1 very helpful to do that, given some of the 2 discussionwe've had here today, and I'll also 3 ask the parties if you would be so kind as to 4 address any settlement discussion if you can 5 prior to January 31, 2014 just so that if 6 there's a further narrowingof the issues I'll 7 be totally apprised. 8 And then in the meantime, I will 9 ask my staff to start looking for a courthouse 10 in Tampa, Floridabefore our March 2014 dates. 11 With that, Mr. Vines, once again, anything 12 else that we need to address on behalf of your 13 client today? 14 MR. VINES: Judge, one 15 

### clarification

- question of clarification. 16 You asked - I agreed to submit my motion in 17 limine by January 9th. What is the date for 18 the Respondent to file any response to that 19 motion in limine? 20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The current date 21 is January 23rd, 2014. 22 MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge.

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### 1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And I will 2 

### again, I will send out a written order 3 codifying all of this so that you have it in 4 writing. 5 

### MR. VINES: Thank you, Judge. 6 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: You're welcome. 7 Mr. Honeycutt, anythingfurther that the Court 8 can do for your client before we close today? 9 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: No, ma'am. 10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Then I 11 thank you all very much for your presence 12 

### today. It appears our business for now is 13 complete. 14 We can go off the record and I 15 wish you all a good day. Thank you very much. 16 

### MR. HONEYCUTT: Thank you, Judge. 17 

### MR. VINES: Judge

- 18 

### JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 19 

### (Whereupon, the above-entitled 20 conference concluded at 11:54 a.m.) 21 22

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 7778 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Worldwide Aircraft Services

Before: DOT/FAA

Date: 01-08-14

Place: teleconference

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

Court Reporter

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 vvww.nealrgross.com